subject: [Wikipedia-l] One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
I wrote:
>>I think this is a question for the speakers of the language to talk
>>to us about; it's really a question of mutual intelligibility, isn't
>>it?

Mark Williamson wrote:
> In a manner of speaking, perhaps; but technically it is not because
> Chinese writing, in either of the two forms, is only partially
> phonetic, I believe the proper terminology has something to do more
> with "mutual literacy" or something like that.

"mutual intelligibility" implies nothing about phonetics.  It just
means that people can understand each other easily enough.

> Just curious, Jimbo, but how is my *age* any more relevant to /this
> particular issue/ than the number of pets I have or my favourite
> colours?

It does not matter, and I apologize for mentioning it.  My only purpose
was to say that it does not seem that the mainstream of the zh community
wants this right now, at least not without some very serious thought and
discussion.

--Jimbo


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> I hope you can understand why I might find it hard now to keep my
> cool: over 600 articles I am almost singlehandedly responsible for are
> to be deleted, I have been told to copy-and-paste them but come on,
> this is 600 ARTICLES we're talking about.

If the articles are good, I think that other wikipedians in zh would
be happy to help you with the project.  If 5 or 10 people chip in
together on it, it won't be so bad.  Possibly someone could help with
a robot to do it as well.

--Jimbo


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Andrew Dunbar

subject: [Wiktionary-l] mouses and rats

body:
In case anybody is interested, Umberto Eco has
recently
published a book on this type of thing:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0297830015/026-9357729-1057214
This is where I got the mouse/rat/topo example from.
I can provide quotes if necessary.

Now I really am interested in making things easier on
Wiktionary. I just want to make sure people understand
what's possible and what isn't and what we need to be
very careful with.

The only kinds of translations which will be
transferable between different language Wiktionaries
are those with standardized definitions. The ones I
can think of off the top of my head are:

* Atomic element symbols
* Scientific species names

I'm sure there are others but besides these rare cases
each and every term has to be inspected very care-
fully.

This is for the translation section. Most other
sections are independent of translation:
pronunciation,
synonyms, antonyms, derived & related terms, see also.

Let me apologies for soundy argumentative etc in
earlier emails. If at least our current major
contributors don't understand the true nature of
translation and carelessly copy and paste, a lot of
damage could be done to Wiktionary which will be very
slow to repair.

"mouse" and "rat" are not special cases and they are
not even difficult examples.

Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)

 --- Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:

> Before going ahead to take this example Italian has
> a definite word for rat and topo doesn't mean rat.
>
> topo = mouse
> ratto/topo di fogna/in coll. language "topone" = rat
>
> topo d'acqua = this is a kind of rat and not of
> mouse
>
> topo becomes rat only in combination with other
> words, but never alone.
>
> To confirm this I just asked a colleague of mine (as
> even translators can be wrong)
>
> There is a problem of this kind but normally this
> happens when for example there is no translation for
> a subspecies into the other language.
>
> I don't have an exact example now, but I am sure, we
> will need it.
>
> This is also a reason for me to work in lists as
> when asking colleagues to check the cross
> translations normally these things come out easily.
>
> Going back to work. - For now I'll read the messages
> but answer only as soon as I have finished my job,
> sorry.
>
> Ciao, Sabine
>
> --
> Sabine Cretella
> s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
> www.wordsandmore.it
> Meetingplace for translators
> www.wesolveitnet.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>

=====
http://linguaphile.sf.net/cgi-bin/translator.pl    http://www.abisource.com

___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
The import facility in [[GetWiki]] could help solve this problem. Perhaps
you could temporarily use it for that.

Fred

> From: "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:28:23 -0700
> To: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>> I hope you can understand why I might find it hard now to keep my
>> cool: over 600 articles I am almost singlehandedly responsible for are
>> to be deleted, I have been told to copy-and-paste them but come on,
>> this is 600 ARTICLES we're talking about.
>
> If the articles are good, I think that other wikipedians in zh would
> be happy to help you with the project.  If 5 or 10 people chip in
> together on it, it won't be so bad.  Possibly someone could help with
> a robot to do it as well.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: shizhao

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson <node.ue at ...> writes:

>
> Sorry everybody, I'd like to apologise for being so... well, so... agressive.
>
> I hope you can understand why I might find it hard now to keep my
> cool: over 600 articles I am almost singlehandedly responsible for are
> to be deleted, I have been told to copy-and-paste them but come on,
> this is 600 ARTICLES we're talking about. Also, I did not even know
> this was going on until I tried to go to wantedpages on zh-tw: and
> found that I was redirected to wantedpages at zh:, and then asked in
> #wikipedia and was told to check the ML to which I am not subscribed
> (even if I were, I don't check my inbox on even a  daily basis
> usually)
>
> apologies...
>
> --Mark/Jin Junshu
>

plese see http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E7%B9%81%E7%AE%80%E4%BD%93%
E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98 [[Wikipedia:?????]] and talk.

My stat, now zh: Comparison that ascends the simplified Chinese and
traditional Chinese about is 4:1, is not say by you so little.Moreover,
someone already in the http:// fengzz.net/ wiki/ up start the trial of the
conversion between traditional Chinese and the arrows body.

[[user:shizhao]]


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] A technical problem with blocking

body:
We are having a technical probem with blocking on en which is causing some important social
problems.

Basically, what happens is this: some vandal gets on and does some damage.  They are blocked by
an admin (let's say RickK for exaxmpe), which blocks the name and the ip number.  But they are
coming in through an AOL proxy that is used by many others (let's say Danny for exampe).  So in
order that he might use Wikipedia, Danny removes the block, which is thus annoying to RickK.

It seems that there could be several little technical measures to overcome this.

Ip blocks for vandals is a good idea, but there should be some easy
ways to poke through them.  For example, the ip blocks could simply be
blocks against anonymous (ip-only) editing and new-account editing,
permitting existing users to seamlessly connect anyway.  Or, we could
have a whitelist.

--Jimbo

--
"La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Opening up the Wiktionary content

body:
Because I am so far behind on everything, I have been unable to study
this issue to my satisfaction.  I hope to return to it soon.  In the
meantime, I just wanted to say that I found the discussion
interesting, and I advise everyone to move forward cautiously and
thoughtfully.  Not very helpful, I know, but so long as we do that, I'm
sure the right answers will become apparent.

--Jimbo


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
It's a bit soon in our history for participation in Wikipedia to be part of
what defines a "top academic", but the ability to simply set forth expert
information in this context is the sort of foundational skill which defines
academic excellence. To take a specific example, anyone who could in the
space of a few paragraphs, rewrite the ==Economics== section in the article,
[[People's Republic of China]] to the satisfaction of the usual crowd who
hangs out there would be demonstrating excellence in a number of ways.
Especially if they could sucessfully negotiate the give and take which would
ensue, considering and accepting the constructive changes and additions
other editors might made and successfully dealing with the usual objections
and reversions.

What successful Wikipedia editors do is something quite wonderful.

Fred

> From: Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:37:21 +0200
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?
>
>
> On 10 Sep 2004, at 10:35, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:
>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:42:43 +0100
>> From: "Charles Matthews" <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
>>
>> <snip />
>>
>> D) You are not going to get top academics interested.
>>
>> Charles
>
> Yes we will.
> Build it and they will come.
> They already are coming.
> There already are rather good academics in our midst.
>
> If however some "top academics" were to refuse to respond to our
> invitation (which we extend to academics and non-academics alike) just
> because they cannot throw their weight around here and have to -gasp-
> defend their views among equals, then we're probably better off without
> those "top academics". We're not shedding any tears over trolls
> deserting the Wikipedia either.
>
> The ''real'' top academics will continue to be (increasingy) attracted
> by our proposition and they won't have a problem with defending their
> views, nor with conversing with fellow contributors as equals.
>
> -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]]
> www.ropersonline.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] mouses and rats

body:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:08:26 +0100 (BST), Andrew Dunbar <hippietrail at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The only kinds of translations which will be
> transferable between different language Wiktionaries
> are those with standardized definitions. The ones I
> can think of off the top of my head are:
>
> * Atomic element symbols
> * Scientific species names
>
> I'm sure there are others but besides these rare cases
> each and every term has to be inspected very care-
> fully.

Hmm, also:
* Names of countries and other political regions
* Numbers, at least the cardinals
...

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
Daniel "mav" Mayer wisely observed:

> But we have to start something ala Larry's sifter idea since
> we are getting slammed in the media due to our perceived
> non-trusted status (I personally think these objections are
> laughable since they are comparing us to encyclopedias that
> are hundreds of years old and that have very similar disclaimers).

For our first 3 1/2 years, *all* our articles were development versions.
We had to do it that way because it was the only way to attract enough
writers to get started. For our next 96 1/2 years, as we catch up to
Britannica and World Book, I think we should adopt mav's idea.

We should make our "stable" versions more prominent. When Google sends
their robot by, to index the latest changes, tell the robot to look at
the stable version -- not the latest "development version".

If we agree on this (and I'm not saying we have done so) -- then we will
be able to move ahead and decide *what sort* of endorsement we're
looking for to flag a version as stable.

Jens is also right: we don't need academic degrees for everything. Okay,
in most areas of physics or chemistry I admit to being awed by PhD's --
but in any field of science less old than a few decades I stubbornly
refuse to accept the authority of academia as being capable of
"settling" anything.

Also, as discussed last month, there are different *types* of
endorsement:

* If mav has "patrolled" an article version, this means he did a diff or
read the whole thing and certifies that it's "vandalism-free"

* If Vicky Rosenzweig has "proofread" or "copy-edited" the article, than
I'm reasonable sure that it's free of typos, spelling errors and
grammatical mistakes.

* I'm not so sure about Grunt's "NPOV" stamp of approval: there will
always be a large handful of articles which NEVER produce a "stable
version" -- BUT the prospect of getting a version 'ready for 1.0' MIGHT
be an incentive for edit warriors to produce a stripped-down 'consensus
version' (in maybe 10% of cases ;-)

* Some professional or academic can throw their weight behind a version.
I'd rather read an article on teeth and gums with some dentist's "flag
of approval" than an unflagged article. As a reader, I can decide how
much faith to have in that dentist's education and experience.

What I'm saying is that the "rating system" won't be perfect, but that
it will be better than nothing (even at first) - and that over time we
can improve it!

Ed Poor
An experienced Wikipedian


list: foundation-l

from_name: ZH Wikipedia

subject:
[Foundation-l] Google Grants: Google for non-profit organizations
	provides 3 months of free AdWords

body:
See http://www.google.com/grants/

[[user:shizhao]]


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
Jens Ropers wrote

> I would PLEAD with everyone to '''not''' go the road of requiring
> academic certifications for approval (or even to value them
> excessively).

I spent a dozen years as an academic in places people will have heard of,
and there is something to this.  Let's look at some points.

A) There is an argument that _someone else_ can do this - take selected WP
articles, get them refereed, post them on a web site.  WP lays the golden
eggs.

B) WP excels at the level of survey coverage, rather than specialist (my
opinion).

C) What happens to 'be bold' if people's qualifications to edit are an
issue?

D) You are not going to get top academics interested.

Charles


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] BUG: pagenames having apostroph (watchlist.php,
 skin.php and more?) are not correctly treated

body:
THIS APPEARS TO BE BUG 413 in bugzilla.
I put a possible *solution* - added wfStrencode( "pagetitle" ) on
several place in Article.php - into the bugzilla system, bug 413,
reported by Andreas Hoerstemeier.
Tom
Berlin/Germany
P.S. I apologise deeply not having consulted the bugzilla system before.
(as I don't like it, because it is too complicated for me, coming from
UseMod. But from now on, I *will* follow your rules to use this system
in order to help us all.)

[... orignal note archived in BUGZILLA as a follow-up to bug 413 ...]
[...]
I have set up a testpage having an apostroph such as
User:Nyxos/testpage_and_users'_guide . When you put it into your
watchlist or visit recent changes view, the apostroph is (still) coded
as %27 instead of being re-rendered as apostrophe.
W.r.t. recent changes listing and/or watchlist using the same modules:
Live example page:
linktext =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nyxos/testpage_and_users%27_guide
link underneath the linktext is coded as =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nyxos/testpage_and_users%2527_guide
[... orignal note archived in BUGZILLA as a follow-up to bug 413 ...]


from_name: Domas Mituzas

body:
Yeah, just that 0 was taken from column DEFAULT, anyway, I'll put it into the code.

Cheers,
Domas

-----Original Message-----
From: wikitech-l-bounces at wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Brion Vibber
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:14 PM
To: Wikimedia developers
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/maintenance/postgresqlpg_tables.sql, 1.7, 1.8

Domas Mituzas wrote:
> By InitialiseMessages, mediawiki messages are imported with NULL
> cur_user/cur_user_text

That's a bug, isn't it? I seem to recall they're supposed to be marked
with id 0 and text 'MediaWiki default'.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Mr Paul Vogel

subject: [WikiEN-l] Censorship by China or bigots in Wikipedia?

body:
Jews and Marxists Censoring Wikipedia On-Line
Encyclopedia:

The following neutral point of view article at
Wikipedia, an on-line encyclopedia, on Cosmotheism
has been relentlessly edited and censored by a few
Jews and Social-Marxists to slander and mis-lead
any readers. See below:

'''Cosmotheism''' is a form of [[classical pantheism]]
that identifies [[God]] with the ''cosmos'', that is,
with the [[universe]] as a unified whole.

==Overview==

Cosmotheism asserts that "all is within God and God is
within all". It considers the nature of reality and of
existence to be mutable and destined to co-evolve
towards a complete "universal consciousness", or
godhood.

[[etymology|Etymologically]], ''Cosmotheism'' differs
from 'Pan-theism' in that "pan" is [[Ancient
Greek|Classical Greek]] for ''all'', while the Greek
word ''cosmos'' means an orderly and harmonious
universe. Cosmotheists take this as meaning the divine
is tantamount to reality and consciousness, an
inseparable part of an orderly, harmonious, and whole
universal system.

In its broadest sense, the word Cosmotheism may be
considered simply as being synonymous with
''[[pantheism]]'', although not all modern pantheists
would accept Cosmotheism as a synonym for their own
worldview due to the historical association of
Cosmotheism with a political movement, [[white
separatism]], which some within the pantheist
community may find objectionable.

According to a Cosmotheist Web site dedicated to the
late Dr.[[William Luther Pierce|William Pierce]]:

:"''Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts
that there is an internal purpose in life and in
cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or
consciousness that binds all living beings and all of
the inorganic cosmos, as one.''"

:"''What is our true human identity is we are the
cosmos made self-aware  and self-conscious by
evolution. ''"

:"''Our true human purpose is to know and to complete
ourselves as conscious individuals and also as a
self-aware species and thereby to co-evolve with the
cosmos towards total and universal awareness, and
towards the ever higher perfection of consciousness
and being.''"[http://www.cosmotheism.net/]

Some claim [[Albert Einstein]] was a Cosmotheist,
[http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1982/JASA3-82Seeger.html],
along with [[Carl Sagan]], [[Benedict Spinoza]] and
other historical figures—although there is no
quoted evidence of any of these three claiming to be
"cosmotheist" as such, and all could also be said to
be [[Pantheist]].

==Mordekhay Nesiyahu's Cosmotheism==
In [[Israel]], Cosmotheism was described by
[[Mordekhay Nesiyahu]], one of the foremost
ideologists of the [[Israeli Labor Movement]] and a
lecturer in its college Beit Berl in Israel.

In ''Cosmotheism — Israel, Zionism, Judaism and
Humanity towards the 21st Century'', Nesiyahu proposed
not to just assume the existence of God, being "prior
to all that was created," but to consider God as only
being a result of the development of the universe and
the consciousness of all of humankind.

Divinity in this particular view is inherently a human
invention.

The development of the divine (or what the believer
would qualify as being "the revelation of the Divine")
was, in Nesiyahu's opinion, both the condition for a
more exalted human functioning and all that bears the
fruit that comes out of it.

In Nesiyahu's universalist re-imagining of a secular
divinity, the universal celebration of Cosmotheism is
the basis for rebuilding the Jewish Temple in
Jerusalem, and is also a secular ethnically Jewish and
a Zionist contribution to all of humankind.

==William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism==

===Origins===
In the United States, ''Cosmotheism'' sometimes refers
to a religion adopted in [[1978]] by [[National
Alliance]] founder and [[white separatist]]  Dr.
[[William Luther Pierce|William L. Pierce]]. Pierce
affirms his cosmotheist belief in a speech that he
once gave entitled "Our Cause":

:''"All we require is that you share with us a
commitment to the simple, but great, truth which I
have explained to you here, that you understand that
you are a part of the whole, which is the creator,
that you understand that your purpose, the purpose of
mankind and the purpose of every other part of
creation, is the creator's purpose, that this purpose
is the never-ending ascent of the path of creation,
the path of life symbolized by our life rune, that you
understand that this path leads ever upward toward the
creator's self-realization, and that the destiny of
those who follow this path is godhood."''

His interpretation of cosmotheism
([http://baldur.libertyforum.net:8079/Our_Cause.txt])
was greatly influenced by several disparate factors:
interpretations of [[George Bernard Shaw]]'s play
''[[Man and Superman]]''; strains of [[German
Romanticism]]; [[Charles Darwin|Darwinian]] concepts
of [[natural selection]] and of survival of the
fittest, mixed with the related early [[20th century]]
[[eugenics|eugenic]] ideals; and [[Ernst Haeckel]]'s
version of [[monism]].

===Religion, society, and race===

The foundation of Pierce's Cosmotheism was essentially
similar to classical monistic pantheism — he
recognized no physical difference or separation
between human and divine, between  creator and created
— but with a few differences. <!-- most notably
his idea of the "degree of consciousness of the whole,
within". --- This means nothing. How is that different
to classical pantheism? Explanation is needed. -->

Pierce described his form of Cosmotheism as being
based on "[t]he idea of an evolutionary universe ...
with an evolution toward ever higher and higher states
of self-consciousness," and his political ideas were
centered on racial purity and [[eugenics]] as the
means of advancing the [[white race]] first towards a
superhuman state, and then towards godhood. In his
view, the white race represented the pinnacle of human
evolution thus far and therefore should be kept
genetically separate from all other races in order to
achieve its destined perfection in Godhood.

Pierce  believed in a hierarchical society governed by
what he saw as the essential principles of nature,
including the survival of the fittest. In his social
schema, the best-adapted genetic stock, which he
believed to be the [[white race]], should remain
separated from other races; and within an all-white
society, the most fit individuals should lead the
rest. He thought that extensive programs of "racial
cleansing" and of [[eugenics]], both in Europe and in
the U.S., would be necessary to achieve this
socio-political program.

His [[National Alliance]] was to be the political
vanguard and the spiritual priesthood of this program,
which was designed ultimately to bring about a "White
racial redemption". His Cosmotheist Community Church,
which was to be the next step of this plan, was set up
in the mid-1970s, alongside Pierce's other political
projects — the National Alliance, National
Vanguard Books, and the weekly broadcast ''American
Dissident Voices'' — all from his mountain
retreat headquarters in West Virginia.

===Critical assessments===
Pierce's views have been characterized as a version of
early twentieth century racial anthropology, but
driven by spiritual, as well as scientific, beliefs.
This area of his belief was likely influenced by his
early association with [[George Lincoln Rockwell]]'s
[[American Nazi Party]]. Others have noted the German
Romantic roots that Pierce's ideas shared with
[[Nazism]] and have observed similarities between the
two ideologies: Pierce's plan for white divinity was
similar to [[Adolf Hitler]]'s vision for the
''[[Master race|Herrenvolk]]''; also, his attacks
against Jews as "parasites" on white society, who
would prevent the white race from reaching its
destined godhood by replacing the white elite with
their own kind, echoed previous Nazi descriptions of
Jewish traits and character.
[http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf]

Other criticisms have been harsher; for example, the
[[Southern Poverty Law Center]] has characterized
Pierce's Cosmotheism as "an unsuccessful tax dodge".
(Followers of Pierce's cosmotheism call many of these
characterizations erroneous, some [[National
Alliance]] members attributing them to "Marxist
politically-correct slander and dogmatism.")

==Related articles==
*[[Classical pantheism]]
*[[Creativity Movement]]
*[[Eugenics]]
*[[List of Pantheists]]
*[[Pan-atheism]]
*[[Panentheism]]
*[[Pantheism]]
*[[Pseudo-pantheism]]

==References==
*''Cosmotheism, Israel, Zionism, Judaism and Humanity
- towards the 21st Century'' by Mordecai Nesinyahu
(Poetica - Tuvi Sopher Publishing, Tel Aviv.)
*''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White
Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717)
*''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William
Pierce's Theology of Revolution'', by Brad Whitsel;
published in ''Nova Religio'' Vol.1, No.2, April 1998.

==External links==

=== Mordekhay Nesiyahu's cosmotheism ===

*[http://members.tripod.com/~TheHOPE/mikt2.htm
Nesiyahu's interpretation of Cosmotheism]

===William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism ===

====Jewish-Marxist and Pan-atheist Criticism====

*[http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/usanazis/cosmotheism.html
''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's
Theology of Revolution''] by Brad Whitsel (''Nova
Religio'')
*''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White
Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717)
*[http://www.pantheist-index.net/Distortions_Aberrations/Hugenholtz.html
''A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and
White-Supremacist Hate Groups''] by Esther Hugenholtz
(''Pantheist Index'')
*[http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/p/pseudo-pantheism.html
Pseudo-Pantheism] (Encyclopedia4U)

====Advocacy====
*[http://www.cosmotheism.net Cosmotheism site]
**[http://bks.ark11.net/dpm.htm A Tribute to the late
Dr. William L. Pierce]
**[http://www.cosmotheism.net/thepath.shtml The Path],
by Dr. William L. Pierce
**[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onlivingthings.shtml On
Living Things], by Dr. William L. Pierce
**[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onsociety.shtml On
Society] by Dr. William L. Pierce
**[http://www.cosmotheism.net/affirmations.shtml An
example of a Cosmotheist affirmation of belief]
**[http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3482
Our Cause, A Speech on Cosmotheism by the late Dr.
William L. Pierce]
**[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759609330/102-6676005-3434513?v=glance
"The Fame of a Man's Deeds"]

[[Category:Pantheism]]

Anyone can edit this article, but, active Jewish
bigots and Social-Marxists have been deliberately
distorting and censoring any factual and accurate
information there. Anyone reading here that can
help to fight this censorship and this deliberate
mis-representation of Cosmotheism can go to this
Wikipedia website and do a search on "Cosmotheism"
and can go edit and fight this biased and bigoted
Jewish censorship and slander of the religion of
Cosmotheism found here: http://www.cosmotheism.net

Best regards,
Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE
http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [Foundation-l] China censoring Wikipedia? Lying hypocrisy?

body:
Jews and Marxists Censoring Wikipedia On-Line
Encyclopedia:

The following neutral point of view article at
Wikipedia, an on-line encyclopedia, on Cosmotheism
has been relentlessly edited and censored by a few
Jews and Social-Marxists to slander and mis-lead
any readers. See below:

'''Cosmotheism''' is a form of [[classical pantheism]]
that identifies [[God]] with the ''cosmos'', that is,
with the [[universe]] as a unified whole.

==Overview==

Cosmotheism asserts that "all is within God and God is
within all". It considers the nature of reality and of
existence to be mutable and destined to co-evolve
towards a complete "universal consciousness", or
godhood.

[[etymology|Etymologically]], ''Cosmotheism'' differs
from 'Pan-theism' in that "pan" is [[Ancient
Greek|Classical Greek]] for ''all'', while the Greek
word ''cosmos'' means an orderly and harmonious
universe. Cosmotheists take this as meaning the divine
is tantamount to reality and consciousness, an
inseparable part of an orderly, harmonious, and whole
universal system.

In its broadest sense, the word Cosmotheism may be
considered simply as being synonymous with
''[[pantheism]]'', although not all modern pantheists
would accept Cosmotheism as a synonym for their own
worldview due to the historical association of
Cosmotheism with a political movement, [[white
separatism]], which some within the pantheist
community may find objectionable.

According to a Cosmotheist Web site dedicated to the
late Dr.[[William Luther Pierce|William Pierce]]:

:"''Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts
that there is an internal purpose in life and in
cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or
consciousness that binds all living beings and all of
the inorganic cosmos, as one.''"

:"''What is our true human identity is we are the
cosmos made self-aware  and self-conscious by
evolution. ''"

:"''Our true human purpose is to know and to complete
ourselves as conscious individuals and also as a
self-aware species and thereby to co-evolve with the
cosmos towards total and universal awareness, and
towards the ever higher perfection of consciousness
and being.''"[http://www.cosmotheism.net/]

Some claim [[Albert Einstein]] was a Cosmotheist,
[http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1982/JASA3-82Seeger.html],
along with [[Carl Sagan]], [[Benedict Spinoza]] and
other historical figures—although there is no
quoted evidence of any of these three claiming to be
"cosmotheist" as such, and all could also be said to
be [[Pantheist]].

==Mordekhay Nesiyahu's Cosmotheism==
In [[Israel]], Cosmotheism was described by
[[Mordekhay Nesiyahu]], one of the foremost
ideologists of the [[Israeli Labor Movement]] and a
lecturer in its college Beit Berl in Israel.

In ''Cosmotheism — Israel, Zionism, Judaism and
Humanity towards the 21st Century'', Nesiyahu proposed
not to just assume the existence of God, being "prior
to all that was created," but to consider God as only
being a result of the development of the universe and
the consciousness of all of humankind.

Divinity in this particular view is inherently a human
invention.

The development of the divine (or what the believer
would qualify as being "the revelation of the Divine")
was, in Nesiyahu's opinion, both the condition for a
more exalted human functioning and all that bears the
fruit that comes out of it.

In Nesiyahu's universalist re-imagining of a secular
divinity, the universal celebration of Cosmotheism is
the basis for rebuilding the Jewish Temple in
Jerusalem, and is also a secular ethnically Jewish and
a Zionist contribution to all of humankind.

==William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism==

===Origins===
In the United States, ''Cosmotheism'' sometimes refers
to a religion adopted in [[1978]] by [[National
Alliance]] founder and [[white separatist]]  Dr.
[[William Luther Pierce|William L. Pierce]]. Pierce
affirms his cosmotheist belief in a speech that he
once gave entitled "Our Cause":

:''"All we require is that you share with us a
commitment to the simple, but great, truth which I
have explained to you here, that you understand that
you are a part of the whole, which is the creator,
that you understand that your purpose, the purpose of
mankind and the purpose of every other part of
creation, is the creator's purpose, that this purpose
is the never-ending ascent of the path of creation,
the path of life symbolized by our life rune, that you
understand that this path leads ever upward toward the
creator's self-realization, and that the destiny of
those who follow this path is godhood."''

His interpretation of cosmotheism
([http://baldur.libertyforum.net:8079/Our_Cause.txt])
was greatly influenced by several disparate factors:
interpretations of [[George Bernard Shaw]]'s play
''[[Man and Superman]]''; strains of [[German
Romanticism]]; [[Charles Darwin|Darwinian]] concepts
of [[natural selection]] and of survival of the
fittest, mixed with the related early [[20th century]]
[[eugenics|eugenic]] ideals; and [[Ernst Haeckel]]'s
version of [[monism]].

===Religion, society, and race===

The foundation of Pierce's Cosmotheism was essentially
similar to classical monistic pantheism — he
recognized no physical difference or separation
between human and divine, between  creator and created
— but with a few differences. <!-- most notably
his idea of the "degree of consciousness of the whole,
within". --- This means nothing. How is that different
to classical pantheism? Explanation is needed. -->

Pierce described his form of Cosmotheism as being
based on "[t]he idea of an evolutionary universe ...
with an evolution toward ever higher and higher states
of self-consciousness," and his political ideas were
centered on racial purity and [[eugenics]] as the
means of advancing the [[white race]] first towards a
superhuman state, and then towards godhood. In his
view, the white race represented the pinnacle of human
evolution thus far and therefore should be kept
genetically separate from all other races in order to
achieve its destined perfection in Godhood.

Pierce  believed in a hierarchical society governed by
what he saw as the essential principles of nature,
including the survival of the fittest. In his social
schema, the best-adapted genetic stock, which he
believed to be the [[white race]], should remain
separated from other races; and within an all-white
society, the most fit individuals should lead the
rest. He thought that extensive programs of "racial
cleansing" and of [[eugenics]], both in Europe and in
the U.S., would be necessary to achieve this
socio-political program.

His [[National Alliance]] was to be the political
vanguard and the spiritual priesthood of this program,
which was designed ultimately to bring about a "White
racial redemption". His Cosmotheist Community Church,
which was to be the next step of this plan, was set up
in the mid-1970s, alongside Pierce's other political
projects — the National Alliance, National
Vanguard Books, and the weekly broadcast ''American
Dissident Voices'' — all from his mountain
retreat headquarters in West Virginia.

===Critical assessments===
Pierce's views have been characterized as a version of
early twentieth century racial anthropology, but
driven by spiritual, as well as scientific, beliefs.
This area of his belief was likely influenced by his
early association with [[George Lincoln Rockwell]]'s
[[American Nazi Party]]. Others have noted the German
Romantic roots that Pierce's ideas shared with
[[Nazism]] and have observed similarities between the
two ideologies: Pierce's plan for white divinity was
similar to [[Adolf Hitler]]'s vision for the
''[[Master race|Herrenvolk]]''; also, his attacks
against Jews as "parasites" on white society, who
would prevent the white race from reaching its
destined godhood by replacing the white elite with
their own kind, echoed previous Nazi descriptions of
Jewish traits and character.
[http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf]

Other criticisms have been harsher; for example, the
[[Southern Poverty Law Center]] has characterized
Pierce's Cosmotheism as "an unsuccessful tax dodge".
(Followers of Pierce's cosmotheism call many of these
characterizations erroneous, some [[National
Alliance]] members attributing them to "Marxist
politically-correct slander and dogmatism.")

==Related articles==
*[[Classical pantheism]]
*[[Creativity Movement]]
*[[Eugenics]]
*[[List of Pantheists]]
*[[Pan-atheism]]
*[[Panentheism]]
*[[Pantheism]]
*[[Pseudo-pantheism]]

==References==
*''Cosmotheism, Israel, Zionism, Judaism and Humanity
- towards the 21st Century'' by Mordecai Nesinyahu
(Poetica - Tuvi Sopher Publishing, Tel Aviv.)
*''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White
Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717)
*''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William
Pierce's Theology of Revolution'', by Brad Whitsel;
published in ''Nova Religio'' Vol.1, No.2, April 1998.

==External links==

=== Mordekhay Nesiyahu's cosmotheism ===

*[http://members.tripod.com/~TheHOPE/mikt2.htm
Nesiyahu's interpretation of Cosmotheism]

===William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism ===

====Jewish-Marxist and Pan-atheist Criticism====

*[http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/usanazis/cosmotheism.html
''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's
Theology of Revolution''] by Brad Whitsel (''Nova
Religio'')
*''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White
Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717)
*[http://www.pantheist-index.net/Distortions_Aberrations/Hugenholtz.html
''A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and
White-Supremacist Hate Groups''] by Esther Hugenholtz
(''Pantheist Index'')
*[http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/p/pseudo-pantheism.html
Pseudo-Pantheism] (Encyclopedia4U)

====Advocacy====
*[http://www.cosmotheism.net Cosmotheism site]
**[http://bks.ark11.net/dpm.htm A Tribute to the late
Dr. William L. Pierce]
**[http://www.cosmotheism.net/thepath.shtml The Path],
by Dr. William L. Pierce
**[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onlivingthings.shtml On
Living Things], by Dr. William L. Pierce
**[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onsociety.shtml On
Society] by Dr. William L. Pierce
**[http://www.cosmotheism.net/affirmations.shtml An
example of a Cosmotheist affirmation of belief]
**[http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3482
Our Cause, A Speech on Cosmotheism by the late Dr.
William L. Pierce]
**[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759609330/102-6676005-3434513?v=glance
"The Fame of a Man's Deeds"]

[[Category:Pantheism]]

Anyone can edit this article, but, active Jewish
bigots and Social-Marxists have been deliberately
distorting and censoring any factual and accurate
information there. Anyone reading here that can
help to fight this censorship and this deliberate
mis-representation of Cosmotheism can go to this
Wikipedia website and do a search on "Cosmotheism"
and can go edit and fight this biased and bigoted
Jewish censorship and slander of the religion of
Cosmotheism found here: http://www.cosmotheism.net

Best regards,
Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE
http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: KNOTT, T

subject: [WikiEN-l] Robert Brookes

body:
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Bauder [mailto:fredbaud at ctelco.net]
Sent: 09 September 2004 17:47
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Robert Brookes

>I think referring to him as "this prick" is not cool despite his
referring
>to you as part of the "lunatic fringe".

>Fred

Of course you are right and I apologize. I just got very irritated over
the smegma article. Because of edit warring this article had around 100
edits yet still remained stubby. My first edit was to try to a
compromise wording to try and satisfy both sides of the argument. RB
reverted. I tried to reason with him. RB insulted. So I stopped talking
to him but instead tried to work on expanding the article. There was a
phrase that said smegma contained antiviral and antibacterial agents and
also protected against irritation from urine. I could find no evidence
to support the antviral or protection from urine claim so I removed them
(Presumably RB would have been pleased with this) However there was
evidence of antibacterial properties so I wrote.

"Smegma contains the enzyme lysozyme which attacks the cell walls of
many Gram positive bacteria causing them to burst. Presumably this
prevents the massive build up of harmful bacteria in what would
otherwise be an ideal environment for them. Lysozyme is only able to
lyse certain Gram positive bacteria. Some are resistant. The
non-pathogenic mycobacterium M. smegmatis is not affected by lysozyme
and grows rapidly in smegma."

RB wrote on the talk page:

"What a lot of garbage. What has this to do with smegma? Give me one
good reason why this rubbish should remain in the smegma article? -
Robert Brookes 04:39, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Interesting to see another anti-circumcision activist come to Theresa's
assistance. I hope no one asks what has all this business of lysozyme
got to do with circumcision. Give it a little time and a few tweeks and
all will become apparent. - Robert Brookes 05:01, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)"

GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!! The fact that my writing had bugger all to do with
circumcision is seen as evidence that I am a sneaky activist trying to
insert anti circumcision POV "by stealth".

Anyway that's why I was annoyed. That and the fact that my lasted edits
have all been to do with penis related articles so I've got pricks on
the brain ;-)

Theresa


from_name: cookfire

body:
Andrew Dunbar schreef:

> --- cookfire <cookfire at softhome.net> wrote:
>
>
>>If topo in Italian means both mouse and rat. Then it
>>should be a word
>>with two definitions. One will translate into mouse,
>>the other will
>>translate into rat.
>>
>>
>
>Rubbish! Spanish "ser" and "estar" both **translate
>to** English "be". That doesn't mean that English
>"be" has two definitions. Italian "topo" doesn't
>**mean** "mouse" or "rat" - those are foreign words.
>Italian "topo" means a group of rodents of a
>particular
>type of appearance, just as Italian "sorcio" does.
>Just as Japanese "nezumi" does.
>
>I seriously cannot believe that you believe these
>languages must have 1:1 mappings. I especially can't
>believe that you want to force languages into trying
>to fit this expectation. You speak more than one
>language - think about this!
>
>
>
>>If this distinction was not made initially, the
>>split will have to be performed afterwards.
>>
>>
>
>Please read about translation!
>
>Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)
>
>
Hi Hippietrail,

You are right. In the case of ser/estar the distinction will have to be
made as a comment near to the translations to Spanish (and probably
Portuguese). It wouldn't make sense to try to divide them in two
meanings. The model of the database or xml-schema that we are going to
come up with needs to take these cases into account and it will have to
provide in a way to add them. If you check the schema I made, you will
see that there is room for comments in the Meanings and the Dictionary
tables, so I did think of this.
It all needs to be tested though. Maybe we should make an inventory of
some of the entries where we expect problems and try it out. What I
proposed is something to to be able to move faster. It doesn't have to
be the final solution. The question is: do we want to make it easier to
open up the Wiktionary content and is there a willingness (from
developers and WikiMedia and from the contributors) to do it properly?

Polyglot


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
Matt R wrote:

> --- Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I would PLEAD with everyone to '''not''' go the road of requiring
>>academic certifications for approval (or even to value them
>>excessively).
>>
>>
>>But we should not, definitely not, ''require'' academic accreditation
>>in any way -- or even attach substantial value to it. Let
>>contributions, not certificates be our decisive factors. Accepting
>>something because A says it and A is academically accredited as xyz is
>>the reverse of an [[ad hominem]] attack -- and it's equally flawed
>>logic, IMHO.
>>
>>
>
><snip>
>
>I disagree with you. Personally, I would distinguish between the process for
>writing articles, and the process of evaluating the quality of articles. For
>the former, when *writing* articles, academic qualifications should confer no
>additional authority or weight -- an unqualified person should have an equal
>right to edit the content of an article as should a PhD.
>
>However, when certifying the quality of articles, I think expert review (in
>addition to general review) is necessary -- I can give reasons for this, if you
>want. Academic qualifications are one form of evidence of expertise.
>
>As an example, if physics Prof. Alice and a "layman" -- Bob -- are editing an
>article on [[quantum physics]], and they disagree on a point, they should
>discuss it, and cite sources etc; obviously, Alice is not given precedence over
>Bob because of her position and qualifications. On the other hand, I would
>suggest that Wikipedia should give somewhat more weight to a Professor Carol,
>with a 15-year publication record in the field, compared to layman Dave when
>Carol says that revision 82 of [[quantum physics]] is a thorough and accurate
>treatment of the subject.
>
>I would emphasise that I *don't* believe that academics are infallible arbiters
>of truth. My main point is that review of articles requires, amongst other
>things, expertise. My secondary point is that some evidence of expertise can be
>found, amongst many other places, in academia.
>
>
The importance of review by academics varies from one topic to another.
It is of far greater importance in a subject like quantum physics than
history.  The average person may be able to read and fully understand a
text in history, but a much more advanced knowledge is required to
understand quantum physics.  Source references are important in either
case to enable the user to delve deeper into a subject, and to verify
the material to his own satisfaction.

Our standard disclaimer is appropriate.  Still, there are many people
who give too much credence to what they see on the net.  We would do
well to do our share to dispel the notion that ANYTHING on the net is
definitive.  But then too, one might make similar comments about any
thing in traditional print mediums.  A reader needs to accept a share of
the  responsibility for what he reads.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Robert Brookes

body:
>At some point you will need to talk with "the prick" and try to get him
to
>come around.
>
>Fred

I don't think you understand. People have tried to talk to him.
Repeatedly. It's very difficult to keep talking to someone who insults
you over and over again. He been rude to practically everyone he's
spoken to. I don't think he's had a nice word to say to anyone.

~~~~


subject: [Wiktionary-l] mouses and rats

body:
Andrew Dunbar wrote:

>Now I really am interested in making things easier on
>Wiktionary. I just want to make sure people understand
>what's possible and what isn't and what we need to be
>very careful with.
>
>
I agree with making things easier, but not easier than they really are.

Ec


subject: [Wiktionary-l] mouses and rats

body:
Andrew Dunbar schreef:

>In case anybody is interested, Umberto Eco has
>recently
>published a book on this type of thing:
>http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0297830015/026-9357729-1057214
>This is where I got the mouse/rat/topo example from.
>I can provide quotes if necessary.
>
>Now I really am interested in making things easier on
>Wiktionary. I just want to make sure people understand
>what's possible and what isn't and what we need to be
>very careful with.
>
>The only kinds of translations which will be
>transferable between different language Wiktionaries
>are those with standardized definitions. The ones I
>can think of off the top of my head are:
>
>* Atomic element symbols
>* Scientific species names
>
>I'm sure there are others but besides these rare cases
>each and every term has to be inspected very care-
>fully.
>
>This is for the translation section. Most other
>sections are independent of translation:
>pronunciation,
>synonyms, antonyms, derived & related terms, see also.
>
>Let me apologies for soundy argumentative etc in
>earlier emails. If at least our current major
>contributors don't understand the true nature of
>translation and carelessly copy and paste, a lot of
>damage could be done to Wiktionary which will be very
>slow to repair.
>
>"mouse" and "rat" are not special cases and they are
>not even difficult examples.
>
>Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)
>
>

Hi Hippietrail,

I see what you mean, and it is true that we should be careful before
transferring translations from one Wiktionary to an other. But don't you
think less errors will happen if a larger group of people will be able
to see and correct one version of translations? Each from their own
viewpoint/background and with an interface in the language of their
choice? Now all the Wiktionaries are 'parochial' and if one takes
something from one to another, then somebody else changes/corrects this,
it is probably never going to be changed in the Wiktionary where the
content came from in the first place. The same is true when something
gets changed in the original Wiktionary after the transfer has happened.
This change/correction will never get notified to the second Wiktionary.
In an integrated system, they could be marked 'fuzzy' to indicate
something has changed, meaning that things have to be checked again.
I agree that this has to be given a lot of thought to set up though.

Polyglot


subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>But we have to start something ala Larry's sifter idea since we are getting
>slammed in the media due to our perceived non-trusted status (I personally
>think these objections are laughable since they are comparing us to
>encyclopedias that are hundreds of years old and that have very similar
>disclaimers).
>
>
The objections are perfectly predictable.  They are a natural part of
success.  Since we are crowding some very big vested interests, these
complaints come as no surprise.  Somebody's small private wiki with less
than 100 articles in total and all filled with absolute nonsense would
likely fly completely under the radar with no criticism at all.  For
them, criticism might mean much desired publicity.
.
Ec


subject: [Wiktionary-l] mouses and rats

body:
cookfire wrote:

> I see what you mean, and it is true that we should be careful before
> transferring translations from one Wiktionary to an other. But don't
> you think less errors will happen if a larger group of people will be
> able to see and correct one version of translations? Each from their
> own viewpoint/background and with an interface in the language of
> their choice? Now all the Wiktionaries are 'parochial' and if one
> takes something from one to another, then somebody else
> changes/corrects this, it is probably never going to be changed in the
> Wiktionary where the content came from in the first place. The same is
> true when something gets changed in the original Wiktionary after the
> transfer has happened. This change/correction will never get notified
> to the second Wiktionary. In an integrated system, they could be
> marked 'fuzzy' to indicate something has changed, meaning that things
> have to be checked again.
> I agree that this has to be given a lot of thought to set up though.

One thing that I have noted about the initial examples for this proposal
is that they started in a subject area where the translations are
reasonably well behaved, the names of nationalities and languages, even
if there are occasional problems such as choosing between Netherlands
and Holland.  When you try to extrapolate an idea that works well in
particular circumstances to a more general situation you can expect some
very serious difficulties.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] zh-cn and zh-tw

body:
Thanks that zh-tw.wikipedia.org and zh-cn.wikipedia.org
be redirected to zh.wikipedia.org

The hope can use two kinds of UI of the zh- cn  and zh- tw at the same
time here.

[[user:shizhao]]


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] BUG: pagenames having apostroph (watchlist.php,
	skin.php and more?) are not correctly treated

body:
Angela wrote:
>>Brion Vibber wrote:
>>>Here's your problem:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=MediaWiki:Noarticletext&diff=5596366&oldid=5596350
>
> I was told by Hashar that this edit was to fix
> http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=267. Since he is not a
> sysop on en, he asked for a sysop in #wikipedia to make the edit. I
> didn't revert since I assumed it would recreate that bug and wanted to
> know what Hashar's response to this was before doing so.

Well, this is a rather more significant problem so takes priority.
Double-escaping all titles is not an appropriate solution to 267.

I'm surprised that "{" and "}" are legal in titles at all; was this
always so?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] The Jewish Social-Marxist Censorship of Wikipedia is
	quite obvious, Mirv.

body:
"Anyone can edit this article, but, active Jewish
bigots and Social-Marxists have been deliberately
distorting and censoring any factual and accurate
information there."

Thank you for confirming your lying and hypocritical
censorship, Mirv. :D

"Anyone *can* edit the article, this is true. You,
however, *may not* edit the article: your editing
privileges have been revoked for a year."

Indeed, due to the lying hypocrisy of Jews and Marxist
censors and bigots like your, Mirv, and your ilk. What
else isn't new?

"This revocation began on 7 May 2004 and is extended
every time you try to edit; its current expiration
date is 10 September 2005."

I am not the only one that is trying to correct your
slander and deliberate lies about Cosmotheism, Mirv.
You can extend your Jewish-Marxist Censorship for 100
years, but, the Whole Truths of Reality will always
remain so, nevertheless, especially to those with the
actual intellectual honesty and personal integrity and
moral courage to see them.

"I hope that clears things up.
--C. Podles ([[en:User:Mirv]])"

It is clear to me and to anyone else that can pay
attention that Wikipedia is being censored by Jews
and Social Marxists and that their whining about the
Chinese censorship of Wikipedia is just more and
typical lying hypocrisy on your and their part.

Best regards,
Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE
http://www.cosmotheism.net

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>In fact there are, from what I know, many French "dialects", some of
>which can be considered separate languages from French (ie Waloon, for
>which we have a separate Wikipedia, Gallo, etc etc) and others which
>are only minor regional variations.
>
>Of course its probably best if you ask somebody from France...
>
>
Yann is from France.  There are some significant dialectical differences
between French in Canada and France, yet there is no clamor to have a
separate French-Canadian wiki.

Ec


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>Within a fairly wide range, though, such differences can be avoided in
>an encyclopedia.  It depends on how extreme the differences might be,
>of course, but mutual intelligibility is the standard that I would
>use.
>
>
Mutual intelligibility is sort of a gray area though, and in this
particular case seems to be even more problematized by the political
issues---some people have a vested interest in making Chinese appear
more like one language than it really is, and other people have a vested
interest in making Chinese appear less like one language than it really is.

To take just one data point, many of the Chinese I know who emigrated to
the US 50+ years ago find it very hard to understand contemporary
Chinese written in mainland China, but generally have little trouble
understanding contemporary Chinese written on Taiwan.  One of them even
compares the two languages by saying Traditional Chinese with Taiwanese
vocabulary is analogous to Latin, and Simplified with Beijing vocabulary
is analogous to Italian --- they share a common origin and many
similarities, and educated people can understand both, but they're
different languages.  Obviously, this is a minority viewpoint (although
many linguists do dispute the claim that there is a single language
called "Chinese", and assume non-linguists claim that there is
exclusively for political reasons).

-Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
Sort of a tangential issue: Wikipedians should keep in mind here that
whatever they do is a positive political and social/cultural act; there
is no correct answer to this question.

Whether Chinese should be one language or diverge into multiple
languages is somewhat similar to the question 180 years ago over whether
the various Greeks spoken throughout the former Ottoman Empire should
remain distinct, or be merged into a "common Greek", and perhaps also
similar to the eternal disputes in France over the differences between
the various regional dialects.  If we, for example, say we support
having a separate Wikipedia for a particular French dialect (which we
do), but we oppose having one for a particular Chinese dialect, then
we're making a rather odd political statement.  Not that we can't do
that, but it should be done on purpose.

-Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
Sorry, that last message was sent to the wrong list; ignore plz.

-Mark


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] ABOUT LATITUDE.

body:
Hardly.

I don't know where the idea that Cuba isn't part of North America comes from.  I was always taught that all of the Caribbean (including Trinidad, surprisingly) was part of North America.

RickK

Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
On 10 Sep 2004, at 01:23, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:02:25 -0600
> From: Fred Bauder
>
> Interestingly, Britain and Ireland are considered part of Europe, even
> Iceland is, while Cuba is not considered part of North America.
>
> Fred

Is that so?

Well... four words: United States foreign politics ;-)

- Jens

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from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
In fact there are, from what I know, many French "dialects", some of
which can be considered separate languages from French (ie Waloon, for
which we have a separate Wikipedia, Gallo, etc etc) and others which
are only minor regional variations.

Of course its probably best if you ask somebody from France...

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:24:15 +0200, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Le Friday 10 September 2004 17:24, Delirium a ?crit :
> > Sort of a tangential issue: Wikipedians should keep in mind here that
> > whatever they do is a positive political and social/cultural act; there
> > is no correct answer to this question.
> >
> > Whether Chinese should be one language or diverge into multiple
> > languages is somewhat similar to the question 180 years ago over whether
> > the various Greeks spoken throughout the former Ottoman Empire should
> > remain distinct, or be merged into a "common Greek", and perhaps also
> > similar to the eternal disputes in France over the differences between
> > the various regional dialects.  If we, for example, say we support
> > having a separate Wikipedia for a particular French dialect (which we
> > do), but we oppose having one for a particular Chinese dialect, then
> > we're making a rather odd political statement.  Not that we can't do
> > that, but it should be done on purpose.
>
> Which French dialects are talking about?
> There are regional languages in France, the main ones being Breton, Basque and
> Occitan (spelling?), but I don't think there are "French" dialects. You
> should also note that Basque and Breton are very different from French.
> Occitan is a roman language, but any French speaker may not understand it
> better than, say, Italian or Catalan.
>
> > -Mark
>
> Yann
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
> http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Answer me this question: Are you a traditional or a simplified user,
primarily? Your e-mail address ends in .cn so I am just assuming you
are primarily a Simplified user, please correct me if I am wrong.

--Jin Junshu/Mark

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:34:40 +0800, yuanml <yuanml at pku.org.cn> wrote:
> Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
> > No technical solution will, of course, address the differences in
> > vocabulary among Taiwan, PRC-Hong Kong, PRC-Mainland (and God forbid,
> > Singapore and PRC-Macau).  The differences are sometimes considerable in
> > certain technical and pop cultural fields, though they should not be
> > exaggerated.
>
> In fact, some member of the Chinese Wikipedia community, is just working hard to solve
> this problem. We discussed this problem since the beginning of the community.
> I don't think it is a difficult problem, We can introduce new markup to solve it easily.
> Some programmer had setup a Wiki to test this idea, and it was worked,
> please visit http://fengzz.net/wiki/ to try.
>
> I think it is really important not to split the Chinese Wikipedia community,
> we have the same language, and we needn't to write the same thing twice.
>
> Automatic conversition between SC and TC is very important for Chinese Wikipedia.
> we have been discussing this problem for a long time. From our discussing, you can see that:
>
> * CJK Unified Ideographs and CJK Compatibility Ideographs in Unicode chart contains
> about thirty thousand Chinese characters, both simplified and tradational Chinese characters.
> * simplified Chinese are only 2235 frequent characters.
> * most of the 2235 simplified characters can be mapped to the tradational version
> in a one-to-one way.
> * only about 100 simp-trad pairs is not one-to-one.
>
> In fact completely automatic conversition between SC and TC is really difficult,
> but we can convert the difficult part manually, we can introduce some markup.
>
> I really want to solve this problem, and I think I have the ability,
> but just now i only have no time. The other difficulty for me is that
> I don't have a thorough understand of the Squid cache.
>
> I think, to solve this problem, we must design a solution are conformable with the
> url, database and Squid cache requirement. Chinese Wikipedia community had discussed these problems
> for a long time, The real problem so far is that no programmer take the real step.
>
> I plan th solve it in the next year when I finnished my graduate thesis, if no one take the real step.
> It is very welcome that someone is interesting about the problem and work hard to solve it.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
The reason there was only one active contributor is because zh-tw: was
not being advertised at all. I assume if I had really looked for
contributors there would have been at least one or two other people
working on it w/me.

--Jin Junshu/Mark

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:26:22 +0200, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
>
> On 10 Sep 2004, at 13:16, wikipedia-l-request at Wikimedia.org wrote:
>
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:00:18 -0700
> > From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> >
> >> So far as I know, there is no major movement afoot to split the two.
> >> A few people support it, and one of the main ones, the only one who
> >> was actually working on the accidentally-created website, is a 15 year
> >> old American living in Arizona.  I mention this not to say that a 15
> >> year old American living in Arizona can't possibly be right about
> >> this, but rather to indicate what I understand *at the moment* to be
> >> the situation on the ground.
> >
> > Just curious, Jimbo, but how is my *age* any more relevant to /this
> > particular issue/ than the number of pets I have or my favourite
> > colours?
> >
> > -Jin Junshu/Mark
>
> Good point. Age and nationality should not be drawn into consideration.
> The number of active contributors however should.
>
>
>
> -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]]
>      www.ropersonline.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
See, that's the problem.

All the titles that have identical names in Simplified Chinese must
have a different name than they do on closed-zh-tw:, and all the
internal links to articles of that type must be changed as well. Also,
the namespace names having been changed (and now changed back again)
might cause some problems.

There is also the fact that very few of the articles have interwiki
links to zh-cn: (I was planning on adding them later after I got
others involved and the entire isssue sorted out)

--Jin Junshu/Mark

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:49:52 -0600, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> The import facility in [[GetWiki]] could help solve this problem. Perhaps
> you could temporarily use it for that.
>
> Fred
>
> > From: "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
> > Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:28:23 -0700
> > To: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia
>
>
> >
> > Mark Williamson wrote:
> >> I hope you can understand why I might find it hard now to keep my
> >> cool: over 600 articles I am almost singlehandedly responsible for are
> >> to be deleted, I have been told to copy-and-paste them but come on,
> >> this is 600 ARTICLES we're talking about.
> >
> > If the articles are good, I think that other wikipedians in zh would
> > be happy to help you with the project.  If 5 or 10 people chip in
> > together on it, it won't be so bad.  Possibly someone could help with
> > a robot to do it as well.
> >
> > --Jimbo
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
You also fail to mention all the articles with traditional titles that
are only redirects to the simplified versions, the articles with
traditional titles but body text partially or fully in simplified,
etc.

In my experience writing the articles for zh-tw:, maybe 1 for every 10
of the articles had a traditional version that wasn't extremely messed
up in one of those ways.

--Jin Junshu/Mark

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:25:10 +0000 (UTC), shizhao <shizhao at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mark Williamson <node.ue at ...> writes:
>
> >
> > Sorry everybody, I'd like to apologise for being so... well, so... agressive.
> >
> > I hope you can understand why I might find it hard now to keep my
> > cool: over 600 articles I am almost singlehandedly responsible for are
> > to be deleted, I have been told to copy-and-paste them but come on,
> > this is 600 ARTICLES we're talking about. Also, I did not even know
> > this was going on until I tried to go to wantedpages on zh-tw: and
> > found that I was redirected to wantedpages at zh:, and then asked in
> > #wikipedia and was told to check the ML to which I am not subscribed
> > (even if I were, I don't check my inbox on even a  daily basis
> > usually)
> >
> > apologies...
> >
> > --Mark/Jin Junshu
> >
>
>
> plese see http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E7%B9%81%E7%AE%80%E4%BD%93%
> E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98 [[Wikipedia:?????]] and talk.
>
> My stat, now zh: Comparison that ascends the simplified Chinese and
> traditional Chinese about is 4:1, is not say by you so little.Moreover,
> someone already in the http:// fengzz.net/ wiki/ up start the trial of the
> conversion between traditional Chinese and the arrows body.
>
> [[user:shizhao]]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Sorry everybody, I'd like to apologise for being so... well, so... agressive.
>
> I hope you can understand why I might find it hard now to keep my
> cool: over 600 articles I am almost singlehandedly responsible for are
> to be deleted, I have been told to copy-and-paste them but come on,
> this is 600 ARTICLES we're talking about. Also, I did not even know
> this was going on until I tried to go to wantedpages on zh-tw: and
> found that I was redirected to wantedpages at zh:, and then asked in
> #wikipedia and was told to check the ML to which I am not subscribed
> (even if I were, I don't check my inbox on even a  daily basis
> usually)
>
> apologies...
>
> --Mark/Jin Junshu

Hello Mark,

I am sure one of our database admin can help move the 600 articles
probably including history.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
<snip>
> In addition, the entire user interface is in simplified. This makes it
> extremely uncomfortable for a person who uses *exclusively*
> traditional to use zh:, and it will scare many users away (as
> Laurentius admits, sie was at first scared away because of the
> dominance of simplified; for every user that comes back after being
> initially scared away by this there are perhaps 300 that never come
> back). zh-tw:, on the other hand, the last I checked, had a UI
> completely in Traditional.
<snip>
> --Jin Jun-shu (Mark Williamson)

Hello,

I am currently trying to patch MediaWiki so users can choose their own
language interface. One will then be able to choose zh-tw, zh-cn,
english or even german as an interface language for zh:  :o)

Not sure if it will be available in version 1.4 of MediaWiki though :p

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Kiss All

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Is it possible to change $IP from absolute path to
	relative path?

body:
I think it is would be better to have a relative path. Then the whole
mediawiki source tree could run from any directory without
modification.

--
Be good....


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> There's a bug in the new wiki creation script which allows zh-tw, zh-cn,
> nn, and perhaps other language codes which are defined but had been
> intended as aliases to be automatically created as separate wikis. Such
> accidentally created wikis are not supported and may get closed down
> when noticed and someone gets around to backing up their content.
>

I've altered it now so that languages have to be listed in both langlist
and languages/Names.php before they can be created. So this sort of
thing shouldn't happen anymore.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Angela

body:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
> > Here's your problem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=MediaWiki:Noarticletext&diff=5596366&oldid=5596350

I was told by Hashar that this edit was to fix
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=267. Since he is not a
sysop on en, he asked for a sysop in #wikipedia to make the edit. I
didn't revert since I assumed it would recreate that bug and wanted to
know what Hashar's response to this was before doing so.

Angela.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Hidden/protected page in MediaWiki

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Tony wrote:
> [snip]
>  > For real world organisations,
>
>> single login is a must-have feature.
>
>
> That's already in 1.4 CVS, isn't it?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Hello,

Looks like according to JeLuF in bug report #57 :
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57

$wgSharedDB does the tweak

Pending for a clear policy in the case of wikimedia websites.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
The decision is at [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Paul Vogel]]

Fred

> From: "Pedro Fortuny Ayuso" <pfortuny at sdf-eu.org>
> Reply-To: pfortuny at sdf-eu.org, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:38:53 +0200
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Censorship by China or bigots in Wikipedia?
>
> Wow, I did not know this kind of punishment was on at the Wikipedia: it
> sounds too strong to me (what harm does he do just trying to edit, if he
> cannot?).
>
> Pedro.


from_name: Sj

body:
Hmm, we have too much traffic?  Is that like having too much
information in Wikipedia?  I think the only problem here is that we're
not yet a 501c3.

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Mahan
<chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- ZH Wikipedia <zh.wikipedia at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > See http://www.google.com/grants/
>
> Is it not the case that we gen enough traffic as it is? What we need
> is donation money.
>
> =====
> Chris Mahan
> 818.943.1850 cell
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> chris.mahan at gmail.com
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
+sj+
 _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]


from_name: Charles Podles

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

>Jews and Marxists Censoring Wikipedia On-Line
>Encyclopedia:
>
>The following neutral point of view article at
>Wikipedia, an on-line encyclopedia, on Cosmotheism
>has been relentlessly edited and censored by a few
>Jews and Social-Marxists to slander and mis-lead
>any readers. See below:
>
>
(snip much irrelevancy)

>Anyone can edit this article, but, active Jewish
>bigots and Social-Marxists have been deliberately
>distorting and censoring any factual and accurate
>information there.
>
Anyone *can* edit the article, this is true. You, however, *may not*
edit the article: your editing privileges have been revoked for a year.
This revocation began on 7 May 2004 and is extended every time you try
to edit; its current expiration date is 10 September 2005.

I hope that clears things up.

--C. Podles ([[en:User:Mirv]])


from_name: Wil Mahan

body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> I'm surprised that "{" and "}" are legal in titles at all; was this
> always so?

Others may be more knowledgeable than me in this area, but it looks
like Title.php was changed to allow '{', '}', and various other
characters in revision 1.27 on 2004-03-06, early in the 1.3 branch.

For what it's worth, in my database dump of the English Wikipedia from
a couple of of weeks ago, all three articles with brace characters
appeared to be the result of typos or other mistakes.

-- Wil

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Robert Brookes

body:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:50:46 +0100, KNOTT, T <tknott at qcl.org.uk> wrote:
> I don't think you understand. People have tried to talk to him.
< [...]

I'm a big fan of moderation and arbitration, but can we please not
have these discussions on the mailing list?  "Please check out this
RfC and comment on it" is a fine mailing list topic; an ensuing
discussion of the RfC (which should really be included on that page)
clutters up the list...

--
+sj+
 _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Whole Truths of Reality of Cosmotheism:

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

The Cosmotheist Whole Truths of Reality are always
considered to be...

>"a load of anti-Semitic horseshit."

...when only real "Trolls", like this Mirv,
etc., ad nauseum, and are the actual ones that
are actually always shoveling their ad hominem
and Kosher hypocritical lies and their usual
slanderous and censorious anti-Cosmotheist
filth and then allowing only their own usual
rubbish of Social-Marxist-PC or Jewish-Zionist
Propaganda within Wikipedia.

What else isn't new?

"If you want to appeal your ban, take it up with
those "lying hypocritical Jewish Social Marxists"
on the arbitration committee;"

Kind of like the Palestinians appealing to Ariel
Sharon and his Likud Party to end their illegal
occupation and murder of their boys and children?

Thanks, but no thanks! :D

All "Non-Jewish" or all "Non-Kosher" editors of
Wikipedia are actually Palestinians, now, and get
either banned or censored by lying hypocrites and
Jewish Marxist-PC bigots, like this Mirv, here.

"...ranting on this list will only get you
banned from here as well."

Only "my ranting", of course, may get me banned
from here, as well, whereas, some "Jewish" or
"Marxist" pigs can "rant" here all they like, and
without any fear of their being "banned from here, as
well", whatsoever.

This is exactly the same sort of Social-Marxist
"Jewstice" or "Dis-topia" that
Eric Blair, aka George Orwell in "Animal Farm" and
"1984" had tried to warn us all about
after "our winning" the Second World
War and this Marxist-Stalinists Tyranny,
is now, the NEW WORLD ORDER installed
all throughout the formerly-FREE WESTERN WORLD.

"I for one am  not going to feed this troll any
further."

False promises, promises, from an actual Troll, Mirv.

"With contempt,
C. Podles ([[en:User:Mirv]])"

With the real hope of Kalki's return, Mirv. :D
Here is to the only deserving 144,000! :D

Best regards,
Paul Vogel aka NEEDLE
http://www.cosmotheism.net

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from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [WikiEN-l] ABOUT LATITUDE.

body:
On 10 Sep 2004, at 10:35, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:35:02 -0700
> From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
>
> Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>> On 10 Sep 2004, at 01:23, Fred Bauder wrote:
>>
>>> Interestingly, Britain and Ireland are considered part of Europe,
>>> even
>>> Iceland is, while Cuba is not considered part of North America.
>>>
>>> Fred
>>
>> Is that so?
>> Well... four words: United States foreign politics ;-)
>
> I believe that this position predates the Castro era.
>
> Ec

Hm. That's probably because of the "islands aren't continents" concept
I referenced earlier.

-J


body:
Wil Mahan wrote:
> Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>>I'm surprised that "{" and "}" are legal in titles at all; was this
>>always so?
>
> Others may be more knowledgeable than me in this area, but it looks
> like Title.php was changed to allow '{', '}', and various other
> characters in revision 1.27 on 2004-03-06, early in the 1.3 branch.

Ah yes, that revision caused a number of ugly problems. Apparently not
all were fixed. :(

I was worried that simply taking { and } out of the legal chars would
break links like [[{{CURRENTYEAR}}]] and links with template parameters
like [[{{{1}}}]], but this doesn't seem to be the case. I think taking
them out should be harmless...

(There is a separate problem with template parameters in links showing
as edit/new links or creating broken image links, which remains broken.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Nikola Smolenski wrote:
> On Friday 10 September 2004 15:17, Jens Ropers wrote:
>>it should not be too much work for a person competent in
>>both traditional and simplified to add the traditional UI to the
>>current simplified one.
>>
>>The plumbing for this again needs to be laid by our techies.
>
>
> I'm reminding that I wrote a patch which does exactly that.

As discussed at the time, your patch suffered from a number of serious
problems, notably the total incompatibility with $wgUseDatabaseMessages.
Hashar's made some experimental check-ins on the 1.4 branch which are
somewhat similar but it's now compatible with database messages: when a
language setting has not been chosen the database messages are used,
otherwise messages are pulled from the language file arrays.

There is still the problem of navigation links, embedded messages, etc
which needs to be resolved in a consistent manner to avoid cache
corruption and probably link table corruption etc, as well as making the
general navigation links consistently navigable.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Matthew Larsen

subject: [WikiEN-l] ABOUT LATITUDE.

body:
Ok i think that this topic has gone a bit overboard now

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:43:05 +0200, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
>
> On 10 Sep 2004, at 10:35, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:
>
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:35:02 -0700
> > From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> >
> > Jens Ropers wrote:
> >
> >> On 10 Sep 2004, at 01:23, Fred Bauder wrote:
> >>
> >>> Interestingly, Britain and Ireland are considered part of Europe,
> >>> even
> >>> Iceland is, while Cuba is not considered part of North America.
> >>>
> >>> Fred
> >>
> >> Is that so?
> >> Well... four words: United States foreign politics ;-)
> >
> > I believe that this position predates the Castro era.
> >
> > Ec
>
> Hm. That's probably because of the "islands aren't continents" concept
> I referenced earlier.
>
> -J
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
Matthew Larsen
   > mat.larsen at gmail.com
   > 07739 785 249


subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
Very good points. I agree also that this is not a good idea for a
supposedly 'edit by anyone' encyclopedia

>
> I spent a dozen years as an academic in places people will have heard of,
> and there is something to this.  Let's look at some points.
>
> A) There is an argument that _someone else_ can do this - take selected WP
> articles, get them refereed, post them on a web site.  WP lays the golden
> eggs.
>
> B) WP excels at the level of survey coverage, rather than specialist (my
> opinion).
>
> C) What happens to 'be bold' if people's qualifications to edit are an
> issue?
>
> D) You are not going to get top academics interested.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
Matthew Larsen
   > mat.larsen at gmail.com
   > 07739 785 249


subject:
[WikiEN-l] The Jewish Social-Marxist Censorship of Wikipedia
	is	quite obvious, Mirv.

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

 >a load of anti-Semitic horseshit.

If you want to appeal your ban, take it up with  those "lying
hypocritical Jewish Social Marxists"
on the arbitration committee; ranting on this list will only get you
banned from here as well.

I for one am  not going to feed this troll any further.

With contempt,

C. Podles ([[en:User:Mirv]])


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 04:36:19 +0800, yuanml <yuanml at pku.org.cn> wrote:
> >Answer me this question: Are you a traditional or a simplified user,
> >primarily? Your e-mail address ends in .cn so I am just assuming you
> >are primarily a Simplified user, please correct me if I am wrong.
> Yes, I'm from Beijing, a mainlander. But just as you said,
> how is my *nationality* any more relevant to /this particular issue/ than
> the number of pets I have or my favourite colours?

Your *nationality* is only partially relevant, what's relevant here is
that you are primarily a Simplified user. Just as we would not let fr:
decide whether or not wa: should be a separate Wikipedia, it makes no
sense to allow Simplified users to decide whether or not there should
be a separate Wikipedia for Traditional.

> >The reason there was only one active contributor is because zh-tw: was
> >not being advertised at all. I assume if I had really looked for
> >contributors there would have been at least one or two other people
> >working on it w/me.
>
> Yes, if you setup zh-tw, people will go there and write articles.
> But the split of the community will only weaken the growth of the small project
> and bring more difficult in the future. Suppose two project zh-cn and zh-tw now,
> and someday we want to synchronize them, and you will find it is very difficult.

So what? One could make the same arguments for not having separate
Wikipedias for different languages.

> Yes, if you don't want synchronize the two, there is no problem.
> But why we write the same things twice, we just have the same language.
> It's really true there are some terminology are different in technical and
> pop cultural fields. But how about the same part of zh-tw and zh-cn?
> We have the same universe, the sun, the planet, species,
> and same mathematic, logic, and the same thousands-years history.
> Because these knowledge are formed into their modern shape
> mostly before 1950s when Jiang's government retreat to Taiwan.
> Even in pop cultural fields, I don't think the difference is so big.
> Please notice the fact that A-mei has more fans in mainland than in Taiwan.

...

English people and Japanese people also have the same universe, sun,
planet, species, maths, logic, and universal history, yet we have
separate Wikipedias for English and Japanese...

By your logic, there shouldn't even be a zh: and we should only have
one Wikipedia (which would probably be en: although I would much
prefer is: or lb: or something of that sort)

--Jin Junshu/Mark


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: One Chinese Wikipedia

body:
But the difference between the two isn't merely a "difference of
character sets". Rather than converting on the level of the individual
character which will inevitably produce poor results, it is nessecary
to convert documents on the level of lexemes, for which one needs some
sort of artificial intelligence capable of separating Chinese texts
into individual lexemes before conversion. It is also nessecary to
convert names of countries, special terminology (including Wikipedia
terminology: the first two characters in the Simplified Chinese name
for "wikipedia" would be translated alone into English as the name
"Vicky", which would be converted into Traditional in a specific way,
but the current way to write "wikipedia" in Traditional Chinese is not
like that), etc; also Simplified Chinese is more tolerant of the usage
of English words in the Roman alphabet than is Traditional (except
perhaps in Hong Kong where anglicisms are often even more frequent) as
is exemplified by various article texts.

Some people here are saying that "if I read this text in simplified
aloud, a Taiwanese person can understand it". That is not the issue at
hand. If zh: were in Pinyin, perhaps, that would be the issue, or if
it was a spoken encyclopedia, maybe. But this is a written
encyclopedia. zh-cn: and zh-tw: may be largely the same spoken
language, but they are hardly the same written language.

--Jin Junshu/Mark

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:58:39 -0400, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
> On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:36 PM, yuanml wrote:
> >
> > Yes, if you setup zh-tw, people will go there and write articles.
> > But the split of the community will only weaken the growth of the
> > small project
> > and bring more difficult in the future. Suppose two project zh-cn and
> > zh-tw now,
> > and someday we want to synchronize them, and you will find it is very
> > difficult.
> >
> > Yes, if you don't want synchronize the two, there is no problem.
>
> This is not the case - the two writing systems in the same documents do
> cause problems - merely different problems. The advantage of a
> technical fix to the character problem to have one version is that the
> problems don't grow with time, where as diverged versions do. The
> problem set of making two characters sets work isn't a fast moving
> target, where as keeping up with two sets of wikipedians is.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
On 10 Sep 2004, at 10:35, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:20:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?
>
> --- Patrick Aiden Hunt <skyler1534 at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I know this may seem to some to be a silly question, but why do you
>> need
>> someone with academic credentials reviewing articles? Any normal
>> encyclopedia simply uses a basic bibliography and the information in
>> the
>> article is from books that are written by experts who have academic
>> credentials already recognized. If we had people simply cite sources
>> for
>> information, then it seems like we would have to worry much less about
>> the reviewers' credentials.
>
> Pragmatic; many people will not trust and in fact warn people against
> using our
> content otherwise. Think of it as building a bridge to the old way of
> publishing and to the drones who think that is the only way content
> can be
> trusted.

If we'd insist on, or automatically give preference to, academic
credentials/individuals at any stage and in any way, then we'd yield
to, and become part of, the self-fulfilling prophecy that only academic
folks can "get it right".

Please understand that I'm not against academics participating in our
review processes (just as everybody else). But I'm very much against
reverting the Wikipedia into just another place where "academically
accredited" equals "holier than thou". I fervently favour the notion of
"one man, one vote" (with apologies to non-sexist language advocates).
Just because most people in the world today allow many of their equally
good ideas to be overruled by <awe>academic experts</awe>, doesn't make
it the right thing to do. Yes, true, most academics are, on average,
probably better qualified than non-academics. But under the traditional
system A LOT of brilliant brilliant input is lost, because people are
simply put off by never having a chance of working as equals (unless
they ''become'' academics as well) and people are put off by that, if
not even turned away at the door for failing to meet "minimum
standards".

I believe. I believe that every human is unique. I believe that every
human has unique contributions to make to human knowledge. I believe
that in an ideal world there would be a system of joint knowledge
aggregation that could embrace everybody's contribution and then
magically combine these contributions (diverse and imperfect, all) into
something elaborate and serene that's more than the sum of its parts. I
believe that Wikipedia currently ''IS'' that dream. It allows just that
to happen. Not easily, not automatically, not without dispute, but it
does happen. It would pain me if our future implementations of our
review processes would end that dream. Because taking this "pragmatic"
step is not a bridge to the past. It's ''becoming'' the bad old days
again. And I for one, would feel betrayed for all the contributions I
made. The Wikipedia you're proposing is not the Wikipedia I submitted
my work to.

-- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

PS: This is NOT against having a better review system -- I ''DO'' want
just that. I again refer to my previous post:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/030496.html

Again, I hold that the "review club" should be very open to all comers,
just as the "edit club". We may choose a more disciplined approach
within the "review club" and be more harsh about disturbances, but we
absolutely should not ask for (and entrants should not mention their)
academic qualifications at the doorstep. Their ''actual writing''
should be their sole guarantor. With reference to this post:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/030499.html
If renowned academic Alice cannot conclusively prove and defend her
view of things and layman Bob can, then we should follow Bob. We should
NOT believe something is right just because "the right people" say it.
That's a reverse ad-hominem. Go read the [[ad hominem]] article. Do it
now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem


body:
I don't know either where this extension of his ban is coming from. How many
times has he been trying to edit?

Fred

> From: "Pedro Fortuny Ayuso" <pfortuny at sdf-eu.org>
> Reply-To: pfortuny at sdf-eu.org, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:53:58 +0200
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Censorship by China or bigots in Wikipedia?
>
> I (obviously ?) do not want to mess up with any arbitration decission,
> but for me the RfAR page decision only says
>
> "Paul Vogel's editing privileges on Wikipedia are revoked for a period of
> one year."
>
> Which to me does not mean "renewed each time he tries to edit". However,
> IANAL and
> the exact meaning of the phrase in the context may differ from what I
> understand.
>
> I also am not advocating pro-Vogel, just stating that in any judgement
> (afaik & ianal):
>
> a) the punishment must be clearly stated
> b) in case it has several interpretations, the lighter one has to be applied
> c) forthcoming actions (after the trial) cannot modify the penalty
>
> and what is being done to Vogel looks to me like breaking at least b) and
> c)...
> Not a special problem to me in this case: but an important issue for future
> arbitration committees.
>
> Pedro.
>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
>> [mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org]En nombre de Fred Bauder
>> Enviado el: viernes, 10 de septiembre de 2004 20:40
>> Para: pfortuny at sdf-eu.org, English Wikipedia
>> Asunto: Re: [WikiEN-l] Censorship by China or bigots in Wikipedia?
>>
>>
>> The decision is at [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Paul Vogel]]
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>> From: "Pedro Fortuny Ayuso" <pfortuny at sdf-eu.org>
>>> Reply-To: pfortuny at sdf-eu.org, English Wikipedia
>> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:38:53 +0200
>>> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Censorship by China or bigots in Wikipedia?
>>>
>>> Wow, I did not know this kind of punishment was on at the Wikipedia: it
>>> sounds too strong to me (what harm does he do just trying to edit, if he
>>> cannot?).
>>>
>>> Pedro.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
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from_name: FoeNyx

subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed for the page history

body:
A basic xml feed support for the history page.
if you have any questions leave me a message on my talkpage
[[w:fr:Utilisateur:FoeNyx]] or contact me on #fr.wikipedia
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subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
On 10 Sep 2004, at 10:35, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:42:43 +0100
> From: "Charles Matthews" <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
>
> <snip />
>
> D) You are not going to get top academics interested.
>
> Charles

Yes we will.
Build it and they will come.
They already are coming.
There already are rather good academics in our midst.

If however some "top academics" were to refuse to respond to our
invitation (which we extend to academics and non-academics alike) just
because they cannot throw their weight around here and have to -gasp-
defend their views among equals, then we're probably better off without
those "top academics". We're not shedding any tears over trolls
deserting the Wikipedia either.

The ''real'' top academics will continue to be (increasingy) attracted
by our proposition and they won't have a problem with defending their
views, nor with conversing with fellow contributors as equals.

-- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com