from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
Yann wrote:
>For the future promoting events taking place in France this year (already
>3 events planned in 2004), it would be nice to have a Wikipedia tee-shirt
>in French ("L'encyclop?die libre").

Well we could swap the logos on a weekly basis and therefore have a French
week, English week, German week, Japanese week and so on and/or have a
multilingual shirt:

A small Wikipedia logo on the front corner with just the word "Wikipedia"
below it and wikipedia.org (our future portal!) below that. On the back it
would be covered with translations of

"Edit this page"
"X Wikipedia"
"The Free Encyclopedia"
xx.wikipedia.org

in every language that Wikipedia is in that has more than 1000 articles.

Since that is a lot, maybe that would be the sweatshirt.

Language-specific shirts can have the big logo on back though and translations
of

"Edit this page"
"X Wikipedia"
"The Free Encyclopedia"
xx.wikipedia.org

On the front corner.

We could either have one shop with weekly rotating items or several shops. I
think it would be best to have just one shop since that will encourage people
to keep coming back each week to see what is new or what has come back.

We could also have design contests where the winner wins an item or two with
his/her design on it. That way we could start to amass season-specific logos
and designs.

Either way we are going to have to eventually upgrade the shop. But the way
things are now is fine, IMO. If the shop makes a good amount of money for the
foundation, then we can contemplate an upgrade.

But CafePress has two big problems that I see:

1) it is only in English
2) it only accepts US dollars.

>How much would be the cost for say 300
>pieces? And transportation cost?

Good question. Erik?

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] German WP broken

references:
<sh4qur7l7j.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<0217582D-4ABE-11D8-B538-000A95DAA284@pobox.com>
	<shvfn765f5.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>

body:
On Jan 19, 2004, at 12:37, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%FCrth
> It looks incomplete to me, e.g. this section is missing:
>
> == Kultur und Sehensw?rdigkeiten ==
>
> I just tested with lynx as an alternative browser and I have no proxy
> configured; it still displays an outdated resp. incomplete article to
> me.

I sure see it:

Kultur und Sehensw?rdigkeiten

Theater
F?rth hat ein sehr sch?nes Stadttheater, in welchem laufend Ensembles
aus ganz Deutschland auftreten, da F?rth keine eigene, fest angestellte
Schauspieltruppe hat. Entworfen haben dieses Bauwerk 1902 damals
begehrten Theaterarchitekten Fellner und Helmer. Die Wiener Architekten
orientierten sich dabei an der italienischen Renaissance-Baukunst und
des Barock.

Leichtere Kost
.......

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New edit modus

body:
Anthere wrote:
>There is no such thing as a tool bar over there. So, if I see nothing
>special, I suppose it works. By default.

I see one, but it doesn't work right in Konqueror at all. Broken stuff like
that - even when it is really the browser that is having the issue - should
*not* be displayed by default.

Either make this a user option like the enhanced RC that is by default set to
off, or have browser detection find out if the viewer's browser can correctly
display the toolbar and go from there.

But I'm sure one or the other (or something similar) will be done before this
goes live.

--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] WYSIWYG editors

body:
WYSIWYG!!!! That's so non-geeky! ;)

-- mav


from_name: Evan Prodromou

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Edit modus bug (probably mozilla's but just in case)

in_reply_to:
<919vBtYxpVB@erik_moeller> (Erik Moeller's message of "19 Jan
	2004 13:00:00 +0100")

body:
>>>>> "EM" == Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> writes:

    EM> Because the whole point of the feature is to make it easier
    EM> for newbies to learn the wiki syntax.

So, I just want to make sure that you've actually seen epoz:

    http://www.zope.org/Members/mjablonski/Epoz

It's beautiful.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


from_name: Till Westermayer

body:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .

Hi Erik,

>Magnus-
>> * In which browsers does it actually work the way it is supposed
>> to?

>In all of them -- it provides the maximum functionality each
>browser supports.

The whole point of my "whining" is that this just isn't true. Or that it
is true, but that other people would call the "maximum functionality" in
Netscape, Mozilla and Konqueror "bug" normally.

Don't take this so damned personal -- I just try to prevent a new
feature that doesn't work (as in: does what it should do) being enabled
by default everywhere.

 __ .
 / / / /                            ... Till Westermayer - till we *)
. .
  . mailto:till at tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072
  . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179
  . . . . .


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.com Associates program
	- your application approved]

body:
As promised, I have signed up for this just so we can test
for a week before deciding "once and for all" what we are
going to do about this.

I've also applied to bn.com and have on my schedule to look for
others, esp. smaller outfits.

----- Forwarded message from associates at amazon.com -----

From: associates at amazon.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:16:28 -0800
To: donation at wikipedia.org
Subject: Amazon.com Associates program - your application approved

Congratulations, your application to the Amazon.com Associates
Program has been approved!

As an approved member of the Associates Program, you have been
granted full access to Associates Central--the online resource
area for Amazon.com Associates.  It provides a complete range
of features for exclusive use by our Associates.  You may log
in to Associates Central 24-hours a day to:

  Build new links
  Generate online earnings reports
  Access our extensive graphics library
  Update your account information
  Get the latest news about what's new at Amazon.com
  Learn how to increase referral fees

To access Associates Central 24 hours a day, simply click on
http://associates.amazon.com.

Please bookmark this page for future reference.

Thank you for joining the Amazon.com Associates Program.  We
look forward to working with you!

Sincerely,

The Associates Program Staff
Amazon.com Associates Program
http://www.amazon.com/associates

P.S. Please note for future reference that your unique
Associates ID is wikipedia08-20.  You may occasionally need to
provide this information to verify your account with us.

If, for some reason, you are unable to access Associates Central at
this time you can still create a homepage link by following these
directions:

Step 1. Build Your Link

This is your unique Amazon.com Home Page Linking Format:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/wikipedia08-20

Here's how the link should look in your HTML document:

Step 2. Select Your Graphic Simply choose an Amazon.com Associates
logo or button from our Logos and Graphics Library at
http://www.amazon.com/assoc-art

Please note that the home.gif is an example of one of the graphics you
can save to your computer's hard drive to use in conjunction with the
home page link.  You can use any graphic you'd like, just be sure to
use the name of the graphic you choose to replace home.gif in your
HTML shown above.

----- End forwarded message -----


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Bylaws

body:
Accessible now from
http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/

The link is on the left hand side.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bylaws


body:
Sorry, I gave the URL for the old (0.x) versions of epoz. The newer
versions live here:

         http://epoz.sourceforge.net/

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


subject: [WikiEN-l] terrorism

body:
zero wrote:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
>> On the other hand the fact that a great many people regard
>> OBL to be a terrorist is one of the big reasons why he is
>> famous.
>
>No, most of his fame is due to his organizing a couple of
>planes to fly into the WTC.  Some is due to his other attacks.

Hello!! Slamming civilian commercial jets into civilian office buildings
killing thousands and destroying a national icon is terrorism no matter how
you parse it! I for one was depressed for a month after I saw the towers fall
on live television even though I live on the opposite coast and do not
directly know a single person killed that day. That's terrorism.

The attack on the Pentagon is only half terrorism by some interpretations due
to the fact that the Pentagon itself is a military target. Flight 93 also may
or may not be considered terrorism based on ones own interpretation. The
people on the plane were certainly innocent civilians, however (except for
the suicide hijackers of course).

But the WTC attack was certainly a terrorist act. That makes whoever planned
them a terrorist. Since we do not know for certain that OBL did in fact plan
them, we can only state, as fact, that the suicide hijackers in the WTC
attack were terrorists. OBL is just widely considered to be a terrorist since
he is the number one mastermind suspect.

-- mav


subject: [Wikipedia-l] WYSIWYG editors

body:
So, I started a page about including a WYSIWYG editor on meta:

    http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG_editor

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


subject: [WikiEN-l] Terrorism

body:
Eric Demolli wrote:
>I would suggest to avoid the world terrorist to qualify people.
>After all people change Arafat was a terrorist Menahem Begin
>was also a terrorist before being a respected politician.

If and when the prevailing public perception of a person changes, then we edit
the article about them to reflect the change.

>The 9/11 is a terrorist action OBL is responsible for
>several terrorist acts.

Actually I don't like that sentence: We don't know for certain (beyond a
reasonable doubt) that OBL was the mastermind of 9/11. So juxtaposing '9/11
is a terrorist action' (a fact as far as the WTC part is concerned) and 'OBL
is responsible for several terrorist acts' (not sure if this is known for
certain), leads the reader, IMO, to surmise that OBL is a terrorist and is -
by implication - responsible for the 9/11 attack. I don't think there is
enough information for us to imply such a thing. We must therefore attribute
POVs to their adherents.

So we could say that the U.S. Justice Department consideres OBL as the number
one suspect in mastermining the 9/11 attacks and that in the West (especially
in the United States) he is widely regarded as a terrorist (it would be nice
to have polls on that, but I don't think they exist).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Sam Kayaca

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sociology course work

body:
Hi
I am finding it hard to my course work
My course work title is TO INVESTIGATE THE POSSIBLE IMPACT OF CULTURAL DEPRIVATION ON EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT I don't know what to put in my aim. Can you please help me
Asingura
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from_name: Menchi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Volunteering my assistance

body:
Just come!
Just write!
Just do it!

:-)

Do not hesitate.
___________________________
Menchi


from_name: Kelly Anderson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: watchlist idea

references:
<opr1s9fvkkos6ot2@news.gmane.org>
	<93C299E2-4746-11D8-8DB6-000A95DAA284@pobox.com>
	<opr1tfkop9os6ot2@news.gmane.org>
	<shzncn9ohi.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<E12D33EE-48B2-11D8-95EB-000A95DAA284@pobox.com>

body:
Just my 2c here, which isn't worth much, but as an open source project
MySQL help is easier to find than Postgress (even though it's open source
too). The extra efficiency in running speed would require a sacrifice of
development speed. Not a good tradeoff in my mind.

You'll get much faster results from improving algorithms than by switching
to a different SQL engine, IMHO.

-Kelly

>>And switch to PostgreSQL.  PostgreSQL obeys the SQL standard much
>>better and thus it is more likely to attract SQL developers
>
>I'd like to assume this statement is backed up with a plan to adapt
>MediaWiki to work with PostgreSQL and demonstrate superior performance
>with benchmarks. We're all in favor of choice here and would like
>MediaWiki to be more generalized, but PostgreSQL advocacy here has a
>history of being a lot of bluster followed by no action.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: merging watchlists

body:
At 04:34 AM 1/17/2004, you wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:50:33 -0700, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>
> > This may be an old idea, or not. But the thought of modularizing did bring
> > a thought to mind that is related to how Ebay does things...
> >
> > What if the articles in a certain alphabetic range were stored on one
> > server, and those in another alphabetic range stored on another? A third
> > server stands in front doing nothing more than redirecting traffic to the
> > other servers. It might make statistics and such a bit more of a headache,
> > but it would certainly assist in reducing the bandwidth requirements of
> > the server.
>
>Google does the same, i guess any really big DB application has to.

Well, someday, probably sooner than later, Wikipedia will be this type of
application, I'm guessing based upon it's growth rate.

> > Whether such an implementation would be simplistic or terribly difficult
> > requires a greater understanding of the underlying architecture than I
> > have.
>
>There would be a need to write logic to merge the separate result sets.

For example?  I'm thinking simple, just the articles themselves... what
needs merging other than reports and change lists and things like that?

By the way, has any bench marking/profiling been done to determine which
functions are called most often, eat up the most server resources, etc.?

>The temporary DB server is a very small machine with something like 1Gb
>ram. Geoffrey (with 4Gb) was fast before it went down, a second server is
>ordered that can do reads in the new setup. I'd also expect the DB to be
>the weakest spot in the new setup, but at a completely different level.
>The number of DB connections should drop by 50% or so (even more with
>memcached), the amount of ram will be sufficient to hold most of the DB in
>ram, with the option to top it up to 16Gb on each machine.
>--
>Gabriel Wicke

Gabriel, it would seem that splitting up the database using vertical
partitioning (I think that's the right direction) across the alphabet based
upon the letter(s) the articles start with is one way of scaling. It is
clearly not the only way...

-Kelly


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New edit modus

body:
Daniel Mayer a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>>What is FUD ?
>
>
> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/fud.html
>
> --mav

thanks Mav

You know what...Astronom just directed me to the .... wikipedia page on
the topic.

Should not I think about that first ? :-)


body:
Timothy R. Matas a ?crit:
> Good morning!
>  I am a degreed journalist with three decades of experience. I have minors
> in math, poly sci, English and general science. In addition I have an
> extensive back ground in the Christian religion, have taking technical
> courses, courses in fire fighting and police science and for eight years
> took classes (without credit) in agriculture and land/water management.
>  I can read well out loud but have trouble absorbing, however; anything I
> have ever been told that I felt was significant, I can recall -- that
> includes numbers, laws, reasons etc.
>  I was rendered disabled by a medical doctor and now have extra time on my
> hands. I love to write, am working on a book, become inspired to write a
> poem every year or so and would like to be a regular contributor to your
> fine project.
>  I am a genealogist and have side of my family traced back to 1726.
>  My aim is the truth and perfection so I welcome those who would edit my
> work for that improves me. It is my belief that one should be either
> learning or teaching most of one's life in order to make it worthwhile.
>  Could I be of help in your operation?
> Sincerely,
>
> Tim R. Matas

Yes ! Come over, we need you in the agriculture and land/water
management department ! (just supporting my chapel here :-)).

Sincerely

Anthere


from_name: Ramanan Selvaratnam

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Toolbar

references:
<EJENIMNDFLKBMNBMAGKDGEGJCGAA.mark@kruegerbrothers.com>
	<20040115203045.GB21862@tomk32.homelinux.org>
	<20040115214154.GF21046@joey.bomis.com>
	<200401151700.41301.sascha@pantropy.net>
	<20040115233234.GO21046@joey.bomis.com>
	<DD61041F-1DDA-11B2-993D-000A27B3913C@shaysnet.com>

body:
On Thu, 1970-01-01 at 05:59, Peter Jaros wrote:
	^^^^^^^^^^
	Birth of Unix :)?

> On Jan 15, 2004, at 6:32 PM, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
> > Sascha Noyes wrote:
> >> That is because of two reasons: 1. "toolbars" are spyware in most
> >> cases. Spyware targets people who don't know much about computers,
> >> which happens to be people that use mainly non-free software.
> >
> > To me, that should actually generate demand for a GNU-free
> > alternative, right?  People can trust that it's not doing anything
> > evil, because the source is publicly available.
>
> Unfortunately, most people in the toolbar market don't care.
People in my domain 'Tamil' should care.

To define free as in freedom (specific to the need to translate for
Wikipedia front page and the GFDL I consulted the most central place
where many Tamil literary/linguistic interests lie.

I was amazed to find out (while getting some proper definitions by the
way) how much people who care about software futures are worried by
current practices.

They generally might not know the exact specifics of how source code is
compiled etc. but it is abundantly clear that the proprietary players
are pushing black boxes and that too along the ugliest global divides
like economic wealth to further such division. That includes support for
oppressive practices.

>   Most
> probably don't know what GNU means,
Well GNU's Not Unix.

If they do not know yet soon they will.

>  or even what free software is.
This people in non-English and non-German domains generally know.
(free and frei (?) have dual meaning here...)

> Many probably don't know what source code is.
>
> BTW, this isn't to say open source isn't worth it in this effort.  It's
> mainly just a rant about, well, whatever you call the uninformed masses
> of the computer world.

> Windows users?

I do not fully understand what is said here but I disagree:)
MS-Windows user however conned out of the bottoms they might be ...
they  cannot be written off.

Mozilla toolbar technology (XUL based I think) seems to be well
supported.
Mozilla works on MS-Windows.
If we do anything with a Wikipedia toolbar then probably we have to have
a good informative piece of writing under the 'help' -> 'about' section.

There is hope :)

Ramanan
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New edit modus

body:
Till Westermayer a ?crit:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
>
> Hi Anthere,
>
>
>>Karl Eichwalder a ?crit:
>>
>>>erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It's trivial to disable the toolbar in non-Moz/IE.
>>>
>>>
>>>Please, don't add this feature at all.  There is already much
>>>too much markup applied.  The "easier" it will become to add
>>>markup the worse; it is a tedious job to remove superfluous
>>>markup all over the articles.
>>
>
>>I will be real glad to read about that new feature of the english
>>wikipedia, on the pump, as soon as wikipedia is working again.
>>I do not remember it was explained or described on the fr pump,
>>and I must admit, I have no idea what you are all talking about.
>>It is disturbing :-)
>
>
> meanwhile, you can have a look at
>
> http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit

thanks, I looked.

There is no such thing as a tool bar over there. So, if I see nothing
special, I suppose it works. By default.


from_name: Ulrich Fuchs

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New edit modus

body:
> > http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
Just tested with konqueror. Text was added at the end, not at the cursor
position, "unvisible" (unnoticed), because the end could not be seen in the
current viewport. That clearly IS A BUG. Do not enable it as default, if it's
not working correctly with all browsers.

Uli


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New edit modus

body:
Till Westermayer a ?crit:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
>
> Hi Anthere,

>
> http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit

found the *?^?&@?& thing...
that seems to work
though why does the page goes up each time you click on something ?

what would be nice would be that you could select a textblabla, and then
click on the tool, and it would automatically transform the bit in the
appropriate way.


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New edit modus

body:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Anthere wrote:
>>
>> http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
>
>thanks, I looked.
>
>There is no such thing as a tool bar over there. So, if I see nothing
>special, I suppose it works. By default.

This is because, probably, the toolbar does not work with your browser
(there's some discussion about it). Currently, it seems to work OK in IE,
with some problems in Mozilla and some other, and nothing at all in
others.

Alfio


from_name: Carl Witty

subject: [WikiEN-l] mediation mailing list

body:
On Sun, 2004-01-18 at 03:20, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Sannse wrote:
> >I think we really need that mailing list - it's very difficult to follow
> >developments and discusions at the moment.
>
> I was thinking of several. A mediation-l that all mediators would be
> subscribed to (not sure if this should be a members only, private list), and
> a series of mediation-# lists that each would be used for a specific
> mediation. These would definitely be private and members only. They would
> also not have a publicly available archive. All list members of these
> numbered lists would be automatically un-subscribed after the mediation is
> over. The list would then be used for the next mediation.

Be careful to make sure that the participants in the "new" mediation-57
can't access the archives from the previous mediation-57.  (Maybe it
would be better to never reuse these mailing lists -- if, of course, we
use mailing lists at all.)

Carl Witty


from_name: Graham Burnett

body:
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 07:54:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert <rkscience100 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] On continued personal attacks,threats, etc.
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Message-ID: <20040119155443.59339.qmail at web20308.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Nat,

> >I do disagree with RK calling anyone he dislikes a Nazi,
> >but that's a separate issue.

> I did no
such thing.

Ah so you didn't call the project a 'Nazipedia'? I must have imagined that
then.

Graham (quercus robur)

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 08/01/2004


from_name: Peter Jaros

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Toolbar

body:
On Jan 19, 2004, at 2:12 PM, Ramanan Selvaratnam wrote:

> On Thu, 1970-01-01 at 05:59, Peter Jaros wrote:
> 	^^^^^^^^^^
> 	Birth of Unix :)?

Accident with a contraceptive and a time machine.  Long story.

>> On Jan 15, 2004, at 6:32 PM, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>>
>>> To me, that should actually generate demand for a GNU-free
>>> alternative, right?  People can trust that it's not doing anything
>>> evil, because the source is publicly available.
>>
>> Unfortunately, most people in the toolbar market don't care.
>
> I was amazed to find out (while getting some proper definitions by the
> way) how much people who care about software futures are worried by
> current practices.
>
> They generally might not know the exact specifics of how source code is
> compiled etc. but it is abundantly clear that the proprietary players
> are pushing black boxes and that too along the ugliest global divides
> like economic wealth to further such division. That includes support
> for
> oppressive practices.

Well.  I'm impressed and duly corrected.

>> BTW, this isn't to say open source isn't worth it in this effort.
>> It's
>> mainly just a rant about, well, whatever you call the uninformed
>> masses
>> of the computer world.
>>
>> Windows users?
>
> I do not fully understand what is said here but I disagree:)
> MS-Windows user however conned out of the bottoms they might be ...
> they  cannot be written off.

Sorry.  Don't mind me, it was just an attempt at humor, and a poor one
at that.

Broadcasting from the present once again,
Peter

---
Funding for this program comes from Borders without Doctors: The
Bookstore Chain That Sounds Like a Charity.
		--Harry Shearer, Le Show


from_name: Frederic Malo

body:
Hello,

does anyone know how I can download the english old table ?

thank you!

Frederic

  _____

De : wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] De la part de Frederic Malo
Envoy? : mardi 13 janvier 2004 15:28
? : wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Objet : [Wikipedia-l] trouble with gzip2 downloads

Hello,

Trying to install wikipedia on my W2K3 server, I had no trouble with french
old and current gzip2 files and with current english file.

Last week, I've downloaded the two xaa.txt and xab.txt for the old_table
from http://download.wikimedia.org/ . Yesterday, I've downloaded the big
http://download.wikimedia.org/cgi-bin/old_table.sql.bz2.pl . All these three
bzip2 files (I suppose that in fact, xaa.txt and xab.txt are bzip2 archive)
are corrupted when I try to uncompress with winzip, 7-zip, or bzip2.exe.

Where and/or how can I download the english old table ?
Perhaps this version
http://download.wikimedia.org/archives/en/20040109_old_table.sql.bz2
should work, but access is denied.

Thank you for all this work and best regards,

Frederic

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from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikitech-l] German WP broken

body:
I cannot see the "F?rth" article I just checked in for reading; clicking
on the edit button I can access the version I just comitted.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.com Associates
	program - your application approved]

body:
>Goodby for a week.

Yawn - ideologues and zealots bore me.

--mav


body:
Thanks Brion !

-----Message d'origine-----
De : wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] De la part de Brion Vibber
Envoy? : lundi 19 janvier 2004 21:06
? : wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Objet : Re: [Wikipedia-l] trouble with gzip2 downloads

On Jan 19, 2004, at 12:00, Frederic Malo wrote:
> does anyone know how I can download the english old table ?

Please wait until the current backup is done (should be within a day), I'll
make a split version available.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] German WP broken

body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:

> On Jan 19, 2004, at 12:11, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>> I cannot see the "F?rth" article I just checked in for reading;
>> clicking
>> on the edit button I can access the version I just comitted.
>
> I can see it, looks fine.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%FCrth
It looks incomplete to me, e.g. this section is missing:

== Kultur und Sehensw?rdigkeiten ==

I just tested with lynx as an alternative browser and I have no proxy
configured; it still displays an outdated resp. incomplete article to
me.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Eric Demolli

subject: [WikiEN-l] Terrorism

body:
I would suggest to avoid the world terrorist to qualify people. After all
people change Arafat was a terrorist Menahem Begin was also a terrorist
before being a respected politician. A lot of ex-OAS members are today well
respected man in France but were clearly terrorists during the Algerian war.
Even if I'm quite sure than OBL is a terrorrist and will stay a terrorist
until the end of is life (is he's still alive), qualifying someone as
terrorist in is bio is implies a strong moral judgement. If you were
terrorist at 20 are you still a terrorist at 60 ?
A terrorist act can be defined in a neutral way. They are obviously
terrorist acts. The 9/11 is a terrorist action OBL is responsible for
several terrorist acts.

I hope I want be misunderstood, I'm not really at ease when I try to express
my POV on this subject in English.
Eric Demolli

.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 7:15 AM
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Terrorism

> Toby Bartels wrote:
> >I've heard of deceiving people by leaving things out,
> >but that's definitely not what happens in an NPOV dispute
> >when somebody removes a "Many people think ..." statement.
> >This is deliberately a choice to refuse to state an opinion.
> >And in this NPOV dispute, the person taking Ec's position
> >is even open to including a more carefully worded, documented statement.
>
> And there is nothing wrong with making the statement better, It makes for
a
> better article.
>
> >It's also insufficient to cry "common sense" and say
> >that everybody ''knows'' that OBL is widely considered a
> >terrorist.
>
> Why? Some things just go without saying because they are so pervasive.
That is
> common sense. Taking out attributed references to OBL being a terrorist
and
> then having to prove that he is (or is widely regarded as so) in order to
> have those references put back it, would be like having to defend
statements
> in our article on the Apollo moon landings that indicate that they
actually
> happened.
>
> When things go against common sense like that the burden of proof should
be on
> the opposing party. And don't give my any of the relativistic crap stating
> that there is no such thing as common sense - I don't buy it in this case.
We
> needn't entertain the the ravings of every kook by having to defend very
> obvious things.
>
> >In this case, I don't know it until you add "in the
> >west", and Ec may not know it in any case.  OK, so we're
> >wrong! But this is where NPOV comes in and says
> >"If people don't agree on the claim, then state the
> >reasons instead." Common knowledge cannot replace
> >NPOV when it's not, in fact, common.
>
> That's all nice and academic, but has little to do over the fact the OBL
is
> widely considered to be a terrorist in West. We could even add
*especially*
> in the United States too. Sorry, but polls don't exist for everything -
why
> would somebody think to have a poll on such an obvious thing? But his
article
> last time I saw it stated that he was the head of Al-Queda, which is
widely
> regarded as terrorist organization in the West. That is OK (but not ideal)
> with me.
>
> The same question applied to other people, such as Arafat, would be much
less
> clear cut.  Arafat at one time was considered to be a terrorist, but I've
> seen far fewer remarks to that effect since he changed hats from head of
the
> PLA to the PLO. So we could not state "in the West Arafat is widely
> considered a terrorist", because that would not be true (unless you parse
> "widely" liberally).
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Server update - good news!

body:
Jason has installed Geoffrin (with 3 of its previous 4 gigabytes of
ram) and a second machine, Gunther. I'm running extra memory tests on
both now.

Additionally a database backup is still running from Ursula (the
temporary database server) which should complete tonight. Somewhere in
all this things should be transferred over if all is well and stuff
should be faster...

But expect there to be some downtime over the next hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Toolbar update

body:
Hi,

there's a new version of the toolbar:

http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit

MAKE SURE TO CLEAR YOUR CACHE if you've tried it before. Otherwise you
will get the old JavaScript code.

The main change is that in browsers which do not support changing a text
selection or inserting text at the cursor (Opera and Konqueror), you now
get a textbox where a sample text is shown for each function for easy copy
and pasting. So instead of adding the text at the bottom, where you might
not notice it, it's shown right under the toolbar.

There's also a <nowiki> button now (thanks to Dori for the image), and the
toolbar should not be shown at all in any browser where JavaScript is
disabled.

The scrolling bug in Mozilla is still there, but as far as I can tell,
this is a Mozilla bug and there is no workaround. All other toolbars I've
seen have the same problem, but in ours at least the cursor is set
correctly. I consider this a minor issue and no reason to disable the
toolbar in Mozilla.

Please report any problems.

Regards,

Erik


body:
On Jan 19, 2004, at 22:00, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> I should have stopped working on WP articles much earlier (as soon as I
> discovered the ISBN links to the external booksellers).  My mistake was
> to accept the page which lists external booksellers, a page which isn't
> editable by users.

Er, that page *is* editable by users:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Book_sources
>
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia merchandise at CafePress

body:
On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 04:37, Yann Forget wrote:
> > Knowing about other places that perform the same service as CafePress
> > but who  do so at lower prices and/or accept payments in other
> > currencies, would also  be nice. Of course we will have to be reasonably
> > sure of their quality as  well.
> (...)
> > -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
>
> For the future promoting events taking place in France this year (already
> 3 events planned in 2004), it would be nice to have a Wikipedia tee-shirt
> in French ("L'encyclop?die libre"). How much would be the cost for say 300
> pieces? And transportation cost?

I ran across one other "custom T-shirts over the web" service, which is
oriented toward large orders, rather than CafePress's one-off orders;
I'm guessing it probably has better prices for large orders like Yann's
300 tee-shirts:  www.customink.com

I tried a "quick quote" for 300 "Hanes Beefy Ts" brand (customink calls
these high quality), white, 50 medium, 100 large, 100 XL, 50 XXL, one
color printed on front/one color on back: this was $1695 (US dollars)
($5.65 per shirt), plus "free shipping" within the continental US (I
didn't see a place to ask about shipping to Europe).

I have never purchased anything from customink (or cafepress); all I
know is what's on the web page.

Carl Witty


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: WYSIWYG editors

body:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:15:21 -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:

> So, I started a page about including a WYSIWYG editor on meta:
>
>     http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG_editor

I've added more details about Epoz. I use it every day in Plone, it's
great.
0.74 is the default editor in Plone, with tidy xhtml validation/cleanup
via xml-rpc.
There's also a new version 1.0 based on a new concept with async saving
and native xhtml support, but that's not stable yet.
--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] small texvc patch

body:
Support added for:
    \overbrace, \underbrace
    \rtimes, \ltimes
    \rightleftharpoons
    \mathtt
    \>

It compiles, so it's probably correct and may be installed on Wikipedia.
-------------- next part --------------
diff -ruN math/lexer.mll math-new/lexer.mll
--- math/lexer.mll	2003-05-20 00:40:16.000000000 +0200
+++ math-new/lexer.mll	2004-01-19 23:22:12.000000000 +0100
@@ -53,6 +53,7 @@
   | "\\sqrt" space * "["	{ FUN_AR1opt "\\sqrt" }
   | "\\," 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\,"," ")) }
   | "\\ " 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\ "," ")) }
+  | "\\>" 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\>"," ")) }
   | "\\;" 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\;"," ")) }
   | "\\!" 			{ LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\!") }
   | "\\{" 			{ DELIMITER (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\{","{")) }
diff -ruN math/texutil.ml math-new/texutil.ml
--- math/texutil.ml	2003-08-27 02:32:05.000000000 +0200
+++ math-new/texutil.ml	2004-01-19 23:39:50.000000000 +0100
@@ -337,6 +337,7 @@
     | "\\heartsuit"        -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\heartsuit ")
     | "\\diamonds"         -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\diamondsuit ")
     | "\\diamondsuit"      -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\diamondsuit ")
+    | "\\rightleftharpoons"-> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\rightleftharpoons ")
     | "\\implies"          -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\implies ", "⇒")))
     | "\\mod"	           -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\mod ", "mod")))
     | "\\Diamond"          -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\Diamond ", "◊")))
@@ -351,6 +352,8 @@
     | "\\N"		   -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\mathbb{N}", "N")))
     | "\\lVert"            -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\lVert ", "||")))
     | "\\rVert"            -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\rVert ", "||")))
+    | "\\ltimes"     	   -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\ltimes "))
+    | "\\rtimes"  	   -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\rtimes "))
     | "\\nmid"             -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\nmid "))
     | "\\lesssim"          -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\lesssim "))
     | "\\ngeq"             -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\ngeq "))
@@ -416,7 +419,9 @@
     | "\\not"	           -> FUN_AR1 "\\not "
     | "\\choose"           -> FUN_INFIX "\\choose "
     | "\\atop"             -> FUN_INFIX "\\atop "
-    | "\\binom"            -> FUN_AR2 "\\binom "
+    | "\\binom"            -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR2 "\\binom ")
+    | "\\overset"          -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR2 "\\overset ")
+    | "\\underset"         -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR2 "\\underset ")
     | "\\frac"             -> FUN_AR2h ("\\frac ", fun num den -> Html.html_render [num], "
", Html.html_render [den])
     | "\\cfrac"            -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR2h ("\\cfrac ", fun num den -> Html.html_render [num], "
", Html.html_render [den]))
     | "\\over"             -> FUN_INFIXh ("\\over ", fun num den -> Html.html_render num, "
", Html.html_render den)
@@ -442,6 +447,7 @@
     | "\\boldsymbol"       -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\boldsymbol ")
     | "\\bold"             -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathbf ")
     | "\\Bbb"              -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathbb ")
+    | "\\mathtt"           -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathtt ")
     | "\\mathbf"           -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathbf ")
     | "\\mathsf"           -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathsf ")
     | "\\mathcal"          -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathcal ")


references:
<200401192115.57674.maveric149@yahoo.com>
	<shr7xv40sp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<1C7C4180-4B10-11D8-B538-000A95DAA284@pobox.com>
	<shn08j3yrb.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>

body:
On Jan 19, 2004, at 22:44, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:
>> Er, that page *is* editable by users:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Book_sources
>
> Sorry, I checked this one:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Booksources - concerning
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Book_sources you are right.

Special:Booksources when given an ISBN (that is, what you get when you
click an ISBN link) takes Wikipedia:Book_sources and slips in the ISBN
number.

Going to [[Special:Booksources]] raw hasn't got around to that because
we forgot you could do that. :) That's a bug.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Jan 19, 2004, at 22:13, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Jason has installed Geoffrin (with 3 of its previous 4 gigabytes of
> ram) and a second machine, Gunther. I'm running extra memory tests on
> both now.

Gunther is looking good (though it currently has only 1GB of ram).

Geoffrin is still having some troubles, but there's a large chunk of
ram that's passed tests; I'm hoping to get the bad bits walled off...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Toolbar update

body:
On Jan 20, 2004, at 00:00, Ulrich Fuchs wrote:
>> The main change is that in browsers which do not support changing a
>> text
>> selection or inserting text at the cursor (Opera and Konqueror), you
>> now
>
> Far better this way. With my Konqueror it works.

(It uses this same behavior in Safari.)

> I don't have M$ Explorer. However, I think (as far as I have read)
> that there
> the buttons insert things like '''bold text''' at the cursor position.
> What
> happens, if text is selected? Does it gets overwritten with '''bold
> text'''
> or does it result in '''selected text'''? (Because the latter is what a
> newbie user would expect, from his/her experiences with standard word
> processing applications) Is that implemented/implementable?

Yes; if text is selected when you click the button, the selected text
is surrounded with the ''' markup (or whatever). It's actually kind of
neat. :)

In Mozilla this works but there is a bug in Mozilla that causes the
textarea to scroll up to the top if there is more text than fits at
once. This is going to be extremely confusing for a newbie; if there's
no workaround I've been suggesting to Erik that we just have Mozilla
fall back to the other behavior (with the secondary box that shows the
markup so you can look at it or cut-n-paste).

It's really _meant_ for novice users, so having it completely off by
default misses the point. :) But we don't want it to be frustrating,
either.

I've also found it to be somewhat problematic in Internet Explorer for
Mac if the browser window is smallish, the focus changes cause things
to scroll around strangely. I'm not sure what's the best course of
action there.

Any other Mac users, can you try editing on test.wikipedia.org and let
me know what works / doesn't work / goes wacky and crazy?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Ivo Köthnig

subject: [Wikipedia-l] WYSIWYG editors

body:
Am Dienstag, 20. Januar 2004 00:19 schrieb Daniel Mayer:
> WYSIWYG!!!! That's so non-geeky! ;)

I would prefer WYMIWYG (what you mean is what you get)

regards
Coma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] trouble with gzip2 downloads

body:
Okay, new backup is now available. It says it's three days old because
it took so long to run on the slow machine. :P

Temporarily at: http://susan.bomis.com/

The English Wikipedia old revisions table is available in two parts
(xaa, xab) to get around the 2GB-download problem with Apache on a
32-bit server.

Also -- all wikis will go OFFLINE shortly for transferring the database
back to geoffrin, the fast server, which seems to be happy with a
lobotomy down to 2GB of ram.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Jan 19, 2004, at 23:49, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Geoffrin is still having some troubles, but there's a large chunk of
> ram that's passed tests; I'm hoping to get the bad bits walled off...

I haven't detected any errors with memory limited to 2GB. So far, so
good...

The wikis are about to be shut down to transfer the database over, I
don't know exactly how long this will take. Both geoffrin and gunther
should be getting live copies, and we'll see if we can keep them in
sync in case one dies...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] the tool bar : disable it in some browsers (or fix
	it), please

body:
Message: 8Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:12:17 -0800From: Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Toolbar updateTo: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.orgMessage-ID: <5CF48A7C-4B20-11D8-B538-000A95DAA284 at pobox.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"On Jan 20, 2004, at 00:00, Ulrich Fuchs wrote:>> The main change is that in browsers which do not support changing a >> text>> selection or inserting text at the cursor (Opera and Konqueror), you >> now>> Far better this way. With my Konqueror it works.(It uses this same behavior in Safari.)> I don't have M$ Explorer. However, I think (as far as I have read) > that there> the buttons insert things like '''bold text''' at the cursor position. > What> happens, if text is selected? Does it gets overwritten with '''bold > text'''> or does it result in '''selected text'''? (Because the latter is what a> newbie user would expect, from his/her experiences with standard word> processing applications) Is that implemented/implementable?Yes;
 if text is selected when you click the button, the selected text is surrounded with the ''' markup (or whatever). It's actually kind of neat. :)In Mozilla this works but there is a bug in Mozilla that causes the textarea to scroll up to the top if there is more text than fits at once. This is going to be extremely confusing for a newbie; if there's no workaround I've been suggesting to Erik that we just have Mozilla fall back to the other behavior (with the secondary box that shows the markup so you can look at it or cut-n-paste).It's really _meant_ for novice users, so having it completely off by default misses the point. :) But we don't want it to be frustrating, either.I've also found it to be somewhat problematic in Internet Explorer for Mac if the browser window is smallish, the focus changes cause things to scroll around strangely. I'm not sure what's the best course of action there.Any other Mac users, can you try editing on test.wikipedia.org and let me know what works /
 doesn't work / goes wacky and crazy?-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-------------

I am glad that you wrote what it was supposed to do by default.

So, if I read well, what it is supposed to do by default, is that when you select a text, then click on the button, it neatly surrounds the text with the appropriate tag.

Ok; that is really neat for a newbie. Granted.

Now, if this is the supposed behavior by default, it is not the case on Netscape 7 either.

It effectively does not break *anything*

But, when you select a text, then go up with the *browser* scroll to click on the appropriate button,
What one get is
*the *edit* window scrolls at the top (so one have to scroll the edit window all the way down to find my edit again)
*it does not surround the text with the tag, it adds at the end of the selected text, the tag, with a comment by default (of the type, insert the text you want in bold there)

The idea behind it is nice, and it is great if that works for other browsers, but on my browser, it will be
* temporary informative in the sense it effectively show the type of tag which should be used

* but confusing to the newbie who will lost his placement in his edit window and will have to find it back
* useless as an edition tool, since it does not work in surrounding the selected text
* cluttering the space as any additional tool

In short, it will be more detrimental than beneficial.
Wiki must be kept simple.
This feature on Netscape will not make it simpler.
It will make more confusing, and it will clutter space without any reason.

I suggest that a browser check be added, and that on all browsers where it is not working, it be disabled.
It is *very bad* to let such bugs in an application, with the claim it is to help people when it will just do the opposite.
Please, keep it for other browsers (because it is a *neat* feature, but disable it in our browser).
Respect variety. Please do not punish minorities browsers users by degrading the way the application works for them.
And please no one answer that this browser is old, and should not exist at all.
That might have been true on my old (favorite) Opera 5, but Netscape 7 is recent.

On the contrary of many people here, I am not a computer-very-up-to-date person, so I think I have a fairly good feeling of what a newbie feels toward wiki editing.
I quite well remember my first edits.
My worse nightmare was that I left a space at the beginning of a sentence without noticing.

I edited the page about 15 times to try to understand why the police was so weird, and did not cut the text at the end of the sentence.
Newbies often do that I noticed.
Apart from that, I had few problems at the beginning.
People edited just behind me, and that was enough to get the hint very quickly.
Mostly, I had problems to remember, much later, how to do image: links, media: links and link to other pedias (now much more simple).
Add a pinch of having trouble remembering the &bot=1 and &redirect=no. That is it.
There is really no big deal in wiki editing.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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subject: [Wikitech-l] German WP broken

references:
<sh4qur7l7j.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<0217582D-4ABE-11D8-B538-000A95DAA284@pobox.com>
	<shvfn765f5.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<DF4E6746-4AD4-11D8-B538-000A95DAA284@pobox.com>

body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:

> I sure see it:
>
> Kultur und Sehensw?rdigkeiten

Thanks, now it also works for me again.  Committing a page seems to work
reasonable fast (20-30 sec) but then the browser waits for several
minutes until the page will be displayed again.  Often it's faster to
submit the page, clicking on "Recentchanges", interrupting the idle
submission process and downloading the just submitted page from
"Recentchanges".

What about a button, labled "Saved, but do not download the article
again"?

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


subject: [Wikitech-l] German WP broken

body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:

> I sure see it:
>
> Kultur und Sehensw?rdigkeiten

Arne Klempert just told me, I forgot to close a HTML comment. Sorry
about the moise.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.com Associates
 program - your application approved]

body:
Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> writes:

> As promised, I have signed up for this just so we can test
> for a week before deciding "once and for all" what we are
> going to do about this.

Goodby for a week.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


body:
On Jan 20, 2004, at 01:54, Brion Vibber wrote:
> The wikis are about to be shut down to transfer the database over, I
> don't know exactly how long this will take. Both geoffrin and gunther
> should be getting live copies, and we'll see if we can keep them in
> sync in case one dies...

The database is up and running on Geoffrin and all wikis are back
online.

Hopefully they'll stay that way. ;)

Replication (for a live up to the minute backup server) should be set
up shortly.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Kent Wang

subject: [WikiEN-l] Proposal: News site about wikis

body:
Dear all,

I am very enthusiastic about the concept of wikis and think that it is
The Next Big Thing since blogs (though I hate blogs). Unfortunately
wikis are still in an immature stage and only a small portion of
technology enthusiasts are aware of them; I'm a very active web
developer and only a few months ago was introduced to Wikipedia.

Therefore I propose that a website be created - let's call it WikiWorld
for now - that is dedicated to news about wikis and wiki software.
Important subjects about the application of wikis as a corporate or an
egalitarian could be discussed on WikiWorld forums.

Although I am the one proposing this project I'm afraid I do not have
the time to create and administrate such a site (video games, parties,
reading Wikipedia, etc). But I can think of no one but the chaps behind
the largest wiki in the world to found this project. The only
disadvantage I can think of to Wikimedia's involvement is impartiality,
but the alternative - a totally neutral party - would lack the not
insignificant experience that Wales, et al wield.

I eagerly await everyone's comments on this idea.

Kent Wang


body:
Charles,

That is indeed a good page and perhaps the primary contributors of that
wikipage would be interested in this proposal. But it is lacking more
comprehensive features like discussion pages and a more news-appropriate
layout, e.g. Slashdot. Surely The Next Big Thing deserves more than just
a wikipage?

The role of WikiWorld in the promotion of wikis can be as much as
Slashdot is in the promotion of technology - in other words, not very
much at all; I see this project primarily as a centralized source for
those already interested in wikis.

I've thrice made comparisons to Slashdot with good reason; what I
imagine would be very much a news site just like Slashdot, simply with a
narrow focus on wiki technology.

Kent Wang

P.S. - Thanks for your late-hour response. You must be a night owl, an
early-riser or live in a different timezone!

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:49:22 -0000
From: "Charles Matthews" <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Proposal: News site about wikis
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Message-ID: <003401c3df4b$720f1c40$5f000450 at Galasien>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Kent Wang wrote

> Therefore I propose that a website be created - let's call it
WikiWorld
> for now - that is dedicated to news about wikis and wiki software.

Kent, you might want to look first at

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?WikiInTheNews

on the Meatball Wiki site, for some perspective.

My guess is that 'promoting' wiki is still an unsolved problem.  The
reasons
being that the concept doesn't make anyone money, nor save them time; in
fact, just the opposite.

Charles

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

End of WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 6, Issue 81
***************************************


subject: [Wikitech-l] Servers! Replication etc

body:
Geoffrin is now serving as the main database server (with memory down
to 2 gigs I wasn't able to detect any errors in memtester). Ursula is
now a replicated slave; if Geoffrin explodes in theory we should be
able to switch back over to Ursula.

I also put the initial database onto gunther, but haven't finished
setting up mysql there. Will make that a replicant too I suspect. Only
1GB of memory, but it's got the big fast raid configuration that is
probably a better tradeoff if we have to use it.

At some point in the next day or so I'd like to get one or another of
the faster machines to take over en.wikipedia.org and get rid of en2.

Also, if things don't fall down we can start taking down the extreme
anti-slowness measures again.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> writes:

> Yawn - ideologues and zealots bore me.

I should have stopped working on WP articles much earlier (as soon as I
discovered the ISBN links to the external booksellers).  My mistake was
to accept the page which lists external booksellers, a page which isn't
editable by users.

Now, I've learned my lesson :)

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:

> Er, that page *is* editable by users:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Book_sources

Sorry, I checked this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Booksources - concerning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Book_sources you are right.

Anyway, I don't want to see the WP project called a "partner" or an
"associate" of the said company.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] A Useful Insight on Disputes

body:
Following a flamewar on one of my other mailling lists (& no,
I'm still not sure what it's all about), someone posted the
following link concerning these kinds of arguments:

http://members.aol.com/intwg/flamewars.htm

(Yes, sometimes there is useful information on AOL.)

Something to consider next time someone appears to be acting
like a pest.

Geoff


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Proposal: News site about wikis

body:
Charles Matthews wrote:

>My guess is that 'promoting' wiki is still an unsolved problem.  The reasons
>being that the concept doesn't make anyone money, nor save them time; in
>fact, just the opposite.

Actually, the Wikipedia *can* save time. It has saved time for me on
occasion. I use it the way I'd use a non-wiki encyclopedia, to look
up information about topics. Recently, for example, I was doing some
writing and research about the California recall election, and I used
the Wikipedia article on Arnold Schwarzenegger to look up some basic
facts about his life and career, such as the names of movies in which
he appeared. Of course, I could have found that information elsewhere
on the web by doing a Google search, but the Wikipedia had already
pulled it together in a neat little synthesized summary, saving me
the time it would take to wade through several dozen Google hits
looking for the same information.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
|     Weapons of Mass Deception
--------------------------------


from_name: Ulrich Fuchs

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Toolbar update

body:
> The main change is that in browsers which do not support changing a text
> selection or inserting text at the cursor (Opera and Konqueror), you now

Far better this way. With my Konqueror it works.

I don't have M$ Explorer. However, I think (as far as I have read) that there
the buttons insert things like '''bold text''' at the cursor position. What
happens, if text is selected? Does it gets overwritten with '''bold text'''
or does it result in '''selected text'''? (Because the latter is what a
newbie user would expect, from his/her experiences with standard word
processing applications) Is that implemented/implementable?

Uli


from_name: KNOTT, T

subject: [WikiEN-l] Volunteering my assistance

body:
You are most welcome to help.

Go to any page in which you have an interest.
Click on the link which says "edit this page" towards the bottom of all pages.
An edit box will appear. Just start typing.
In the edit summary box state that you are a new user and ask for formatting help. You will find the community very willing to help.
If you like Wikipedia try logging in. You do not have to give any personal info. You don't even have to give an email address if you don't want to. You can use your real name like I do or give a pseudo name if you prefer.

Let me know if you need any more help.

Theresa Knott

-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy R. Matas [mailto:church at classicnet.net]
Sent: 19 January 2004 15:29
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Volunteering my assistance

Good morning!
 I am a degreed journalist with three decades of experience. I have minors
in math, poly sci, English and general science. In addition I have an
extensive back ground in the Christian religion, have taking technical
courses, courses in fire fighting and police science and for eight years
took classes (without credit) in agriculture and land/water management.
 I can read well out loud but have trouble absorbing, however; anything I
have ever been told that I felt was significant, I can recall -- that
includes numbers, laws, reasons etc.
 I was rendered disabled by a medical doctor and now have extra time on my
hands. I love to write, am working on a book, become inspired to write a
poem every year or so and would like to be a regular contributor to your
fine project.
 I am a genealogist and have side of my family traced back to 1726.
 My aim is the truth and perfection so I welcome those who would edit my
work for that improves me. It is my belief that one should be either
learning or teaching most of one's life in order to make it worthwhile.
 Could I be of help in your operation?
Sincerely,

Tim R. Matas
104 S. Buckeye
Abilene, an. 67410
785-263-0415
Evenings are the best time to call
church at classicnet.net

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

subject: [Wikitech-l] Turn "top" marker into diff link

body:
Hi,
Can someone please include that patch?
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=873095&group_id=34373&atid=411195

I really need that feature.

ciao, tom
--
http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
   -.-       http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
   /|>	           http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com
   / \                 http://tinyurl.com/u6de


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mr Natural Health

body:
We decided we better get busy organizing the mediation and arbitration
committees. If you are having trouble please ask Mr. Natural Health and the
Mediation committee for Mediation.

Fred Bauder

> From: "KNOTT, T" <TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:54:17 -0000
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Mr Natural Health
>
> I'm sorry but I accidentally wiped my old emails. Did we decide to do
> anything about Mr Natural Health ?
>
> Theresa
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Terrorism, certainty,
	and our Neutral Point of View policy

body:
Maveric said,

> Slamming civilian commercial jets into civilian office
> buildings killing thousands and destroying a national icon
> is terrorism no matter how you parse it! I for one was
> depressed for a month after I saw the towers fall on live
> television even though I live on the opposite coast and do
> not directly know a single person killed that day. That's
> terrorism.
>
> The attack on the Pentagon is only half terrorism by some
> interpretations due to the fact that the Pentagon itself is
> a military target.

Even if I agree with you, it's still nothing more than your
point of view (POV) and mine. Even if 50% or 80% or 95% of
Americans (or Westerners in general) maintain this POV, it's
still a "point of view".

There is no universally agree-upon definition of terrorism, no
formula into which we can "plug in" some values to distinguish
what as "really" terrorism and what isn't.

Even formulas which mention "innocent people" fail, because of
a hot dispute over who is "innocent". Are anonymous Israeli
civilians riding a bus or sitting in a caf? "innocent", from
the perspective of the group which sends a 'human bomb' on a
'mission' to blow them up? You and I may think so, but I
gather that the Arab nationalist groups which the US labels
"terrorist" regard these civilians as somehow complicit in the
"crimes" of their regime.

Anyway, the solution is to back away from anything that smacks
of official Wikipedia endorsement, when there is a hot
controversy. Just figure out as accurately as we can, which
groups of people (like "Americans" or "Westerners") espouse a
particular POV, and say that they espouse it.

The great thing about Wikipedia is that it does NOT have any
particular slant on current events or history. We can get into
all the in's and out's of public opinion. A conservative news
outlet or radio commentator or historian can get away with
cherishing a bias. He can easily twist things to support his
POV; easiest way is to quote a lot of people who agree with
you and omit mention of (or say nasty discrediting things
about) anyone who disagrees. Liberals can (and do) join in the
fun, too!

Unlike the Bush Administration or the New York Times, this
revolutionary, ground-breaking, historically unique scholarly
project -- Wikipedia -- has no axe to grind, no point of view
to defend. So we can delve into the issues and report
accurately about all the major and minor variations of thought
on any subject, no matter how controversial.

This is so wonderful, that maybe some of us are still reeling
from the shock of such freedom and haven't figured out how
to handle it. I'm still trying to get a grip on it, myself.

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] Two servers (for speed)

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> Maybe we need 2 database servers: one for reading and writing articles;
> the other for maintenance functions, occasional testing, updating
> watchlists, lengthy searches, etc.

We have on order a database server of nearly equal capacity to
geoffrin, and so this is indeed the plan -- to have the primary and a
replicated secondary, to be used as a realtime backup in case of
trouble, but also with the possibility of doing some heavy lifting on
the secondary without annoying regular users.

So, yes, that's the plan.

It'll only be fully implemented after we (a) get the new servers
installed (b) migrate to the new servers (c) ship Geoffrin out here,
AFTER Penguin gets the damned thing working right, no excuses.

--Jimbo


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Toolbar update

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Hi,
>
>there's a new version of the toolbar:
>
>http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
>
>

Better! Too bad about the Mozilla bug, though. But I guess it is save
for newbies now :-)

If we're using more JavaScript, what about a skin based on drop-down
menus? Should be visually much more pleasing than out standard skin.
There's a free menu "toolbox" at
    http://www.webdevtips.com/dropmenu/

Magnus


from_name: wiki pedista

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Amazon and others

body:
I feel strongly against Amazon, too, but I'm not just
going to say good-bye.

My opinions on the matter are as follows:

It is acceptable to try get income from links that we
already provide given than:

*the programs are not exclusive
*the links to affiliated and not affiliated outfits
let the user know who is an affiliate, but they don't
emphasize the affiliates.
*let clear to the user that some links lead to
affiliate
stores, but we do not endorse any of them, affiliate
or
not.
*make sure the affiliate store can't use our
relationship with them for their promotion.

About the last point, I would '''really''' hate
to see an enemy of the free software movement like
Amazon to put in a page "affiliate of the the day
Wikipedia", the crown jewel of the free content
movement.

AstroNomer

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus


from_name: Charles Matthews

body:
Kent Wang wrote

> Therefore I propose that a website be created - let's call it WikiWorld
> for now - that is dedicated to news about wikis and wiki software.

Kent, you might want to look first at

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?WikiInTheNews

on the Meatball Wiki site, for some perspective.

My guess is that 'promoting' wiki is still an unsolved problem.  The reasons
being that the concept doesn't make anyone money, nor save them time; in
fact, just the opposite.

Charles


subject: [WikiEN-l] On continued personal attacks,threats, etc.

body:
I think it's too scary to be tolerated, if someone declares themselves
to be a "Nazi", especially when publicly e-mailing a person of Jewish
ancestry. It's an implicit threat, if one takes "Nazi" as one who wishes
or intends to kill as many Jews as he can lay his hands on.

Let's come up with a policy for this.

Ed Poor


body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Wang" <kwang at kwang.org>
To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Proposal: News site about wikis

> Charles,
>
> That is indeed a good page and perhaps the primary contributors of that
> wikipage would be interested in this proposal. But it is lacking more
> comprehensive features like discussion pages and a more news-appropriate
> layout, e.g. Slashdot. Surely The Next Big Thing deserves more than just
> a wikipage?
>
> The role of WikiWorld in the promotion of wikis can be as much as
> Slashdot is in the promotion of technology - in other words, not very
> much at all; I see this project primarily as a centralized source for
> those already interested in wikis.
>
> I've thrice made comparisons to Slashdot with good reason; what I
> imagine would be very much a news site just like Slashdot, simply with a
> narrow focus on wiki technology.
>
> Kent Wang
>
> P.S. - Thanks for your late-hour response. You must be a night owl, an
> early-riser or live in a different timezone!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:49:22 -0000
> From: "Charles Matthews" <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Proposal: News site about wikis
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID: <003401c3df4b$720f1c40$5f000450 at Galasien>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Kent Wang wrote
>
> > Therefore I propose that a website be created - let's call it
> WikiWorld
> > for now - that is dedicated to news about wikis and wiki software.
>
> Kent, you might want to look first at
>
> http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?WikiInTheNews
>
> on the Meatball Wiki site, for some perspective.
>
> My guess is that 'promoting' wiki is still an unsolved problem.  The
> reasons
> being that the concept doesn't make anyone money, nor save them time; in
> fact, just the opposite.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
> End of WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 6, Issue 81
> ***************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
 Kent Wang wrote

> P.S. - Thanks for your late-hour response. You must be a night owl, an
> early-riser or live in a different timezone!

I'm in the UK. (Sorry about unedited reply sent just before this.)

Charles


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] the tool bar : disable it in some browsers (or fix

body:
it), please
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 04:31:25 -0800
User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
  charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Message-Id: <200401200431.25976.maveric149 at yahoo.com>
Status: RO
X-Status: Q
X-KMail-EncryptionState:
X-KMail-SignatureState:

Anthere wrote:
>I suggest that a browser check be added, and that on all browsers where it is
>not working, it be disabled. It is *very bad* to let such bugs in an
>application, with the claim it is to help people when it will just do the
>opposite.  Please, keep it for other browsers (because it is a *neat*
>feature, but disable it in our browser). Respect variety. Please do not
>punish minorities browsers users by degrading the way the application works
>for them.  And please no one answer that this browser is old, and should not
>exist at all. That might have been true on my old (favorite) Opera 5, but
>Netscape 7 is recent.

Exactly! I wrote essentially the same thing on the English Village pump
several hours ago.

>There is really no big deal in wiki editing.

Yep. The whole point of wiki is to make mark-up fast and easy. Having a
half-broken edit tool bar just causes confusion, however. Best then to leave
it out entirely for any browser that can't take full advantage of it.

-- mav


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Interpersonal conflicts on Wikipedia (should be: One Big
	Happy Family)

body:
The definitive respones to all the "attacks", "counterattacks" and
"judgments" can be found here:

http://www.unitedmedia.com/creators/onebighappy/archive/images/onebighap
py20040111045668.gif

Uncle Ed


from_name: Mills, Billy

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Multilinguages projects: Wikisource, Wikibooks..
	.

body:
Yes, thanks everyone. The improvement is amazing.

Billy

-----Original Message-----
From: Yann Forget [mailto:yann at forget-me.net]
Sent: 20 January 2004 12:55
To: wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Multilinguages projects: Wikisource, Wikibooks...

Hi,

First, thanks to Jimbo, Brion and all others who make Wikipedia possible.
Now it is quite fast!

Now that the urgence has been taken care of, would it be possible to set
up a multilingual interface for Wikisource and Wikibooks?

I have looked at Wikitravel and see that they have a multilingual system
within one domain only. Could it be possible to use the same tricks for
Wikisource and Wikibooks? What are the other options?

Thanks,
Yann

--
http://non-violence.org Site coop?ratif sur la non-violence
http://forget-me.net Alternatives et non-violence
http://fr.wikipedia.org Encyclop?die libre
http://forget-me.net/pro/ Formations et services Linux

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Another alternative to interpersonal conflict

body:
http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/roseisrose/archive/images/roseisrose20
040112199317.gif


from_name: Optim

subject: [Wikitech-l] Servers! Replication etc

body:
the HTTP links to en2 from external websites will
not work anymore???

--- Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> At some point in the next day or so I'd like to
> get one or another of
> the faster machines to take over
> en.wikipedia.org and get rid of en2.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus


body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> I should have stopped working on WP articles much earlier (as soon as I
> discovered the ISBN links to the external booksellers).

Yes, because the very act of selling books is sufficiently evil that
you should disassociate yourself with anyone even remotely tainted by
it.  As soon as you discovered that Wikipedia actually links to people
who engage in such nasty business, you should have denounced us and
left immediately.

Is that really what you're saying?

Look, I appreciate that there are many very real concerns that can and
should be raised here.  But to storm off in response to a short term
test designed to give us information is insulting to our intelligence.

As for me, I fully expect that the net result of the experiment will
be to prove, once and for all, that Amazon links would provide us with
very little revenue so that it's not worth discussing this any more.

That's what the test is designed to show.  Your acting like it's some
kind of crime against humanity is not helpful.

It occurs to me that the current state of affairs -- linking to
Amazon, but doing so for free -- ought to be the *least* satisfactory
to those who hate Amazon.  They get the business, and they get to keep
all the money.  Doing exactly what we're doing now, but including an
associates link, will reduce their income, not increase it, at least
relative to the status quo.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Two servers (for speed)

body:
Maybe we need 2 database servers: one for reading and writing articles;
the other for maintenance functions, occasional testing, updating
watchlists, lengthy searches, etc.

That way most users would get a quick response most of the time. And
people doing time-consuming stuff wouldn't slow down the rest of us.

Ed Poor
Software Architect
Original Ideal Systems


subject: [Wikitech-l] Two servers (for speed)


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Servers! Replication etc

body:
On Jan 20, 2004, at 13:18, Optim wrote:

> the HTTP links to en2 from external websites will
> not work anymore???

10 Status Code Definitions

[snip]

10.3 Redirection 3xx

This class of status code indicates that further action needs to be
taken by the user agent in order to fulfill the request. The action
required MAY be carried out by the user agent without interaction with
the user if and only if the method used in the second request is GET or
HEAD. A client SHOULD detect infinite redirection loops, since such
loops generate network traffic for each redirection.
       Note: previous versions of this specification recommended a
       maximum of five redirections. Content developers should be aware
       that there might be clients that implement such a fixed
       limitation.

[snip]

10.3.2 301 Moved Permanently

The requested resource has been assigned a new permanent URI and any
future references to this resource SHOULD use one of the returned URIs.
Clients with link editing capabilities ought to automatically re-link
references to the Request-URI to one or more of the new references
returned by the server, where possible. This response is cacheable
unless indicated otherwise.

The new permanent URI SHOULD be given by the Location field in the
response. Unless the request method was HEAD, the entity of the
response SHOULD contain a short hypertext note with a hyperlink to the
new URI(s).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Time to clean out my closet.

body:
Okay. I an committed. I will  post this.

First off. The whole situation about the mediation
committee has two/three nasty connotations.

There is an advertisement with a dog that says:
"Do as we like, or the dog dies!"

I (personally) think that the mediation committee
is under a similar threat, and for similar reasons.

The truth is that we should not upholdd the mediation
committee any longer than it has a practical
justification.

The puppy has to catch the rabbit, or off to the
butchers with it!!

I personally have no idea why Jimbo qualified me for the
mediation committee. Maybe perhaps because to do otherwise
would mean that he would have to explain any and all other
similar decicions.

I know Angela and Stevertigo from the process of bringing
up the cleanup process. My own intent was to improve the
process of wikipedia in a manner that would remain an
improvement, rather than a shackle on its further
developement. I hope I can restrain myself into not
playing any part in its further developement.

Geoff (llwyrch) I know not at all.

Sannse (did I misspell the username?) I know even less,
except a vague, and I must claim irrelevant
impression (no justification, please lambast me if it
is crappy; I will be the last person to require definitive
determination) that she is a female.

Uncle Ed; I personally do not trust, even though I have seen
his actions and speech on this forum. To me he is much like
I see myself; an unsolved equation, maybe negative, maybe
positive, maybe the very zero point of the equation...

Anthere: I would be much more comfortable about contributing
in the meditiation group, if you were not a member of it!

PLEASE anthere, think long before getting offended by the
previous sentence! I think you can perform a valuable part
in forming the limitations of the mediation group, but I
honestly don't see that you can offer anything positive to
it's developement as a member of it.

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen (aka Cimon Avaro)
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from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Viajero wrote:

>On 01/20/04  at 10:27 AM, "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> said:
>
>>Unlike the Bush Administration or the New York Times, this
>>revolutionary, ground-breaking, historically unique scholarly  project
>>-- Wikipedia -- has no axe to grind, no point of view  to defend.
>>
>The NYT would no doubt make the same claim -- that it has no axe to grind.
>
You would have a hard time convincing the trees of that. :-)
Ec


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikitech-l] Multilinguages projects: Wikisource, Wikibooks...

body:
Hi,

First, thanks to Jimbo, Brion and all others who make Wikipedia possible.
Now it is quite fast!

Now that the urgence has been taken care of, would it be possible to set
up a multilingual interface for Wikisource and Wikibooks?

I have looked at Wikitravel and see that they have a multilingual system
within one domain only. Could it be possible to use the same tricks for
Wikisource and Wikibooks? What are the other options?

Thanks,
Yann

--
http://non-violence.org Site coop?ratif sur la non-violence
http://forget-me.net Alternatives et non-violence
http://fr.wikipedia.org Encyclop?die libre
http://forget-me.net/pro/ Formations et services Linux


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Announcement Policies (was Re: New edit modus)

body:
Ulrich Fuchs wrote:

[cut]
>
> So I'd like to suggest a general announcement policy:
>
> Everything that is of some importance to the Wikipedia community - like new
> software features, changes in the hardware status, disabling of features and
> so on, scheduled server downtimes - should be announced on THIS list (since
> the official announcement list is not used any more). Always. Please. I - and

The official announcement list is never been used!

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/announce-l/2002-November/thread.html

http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/announce-l

--
Contact: walter AT wikipedia DOT be
Let your computer do something possibly usefull today
Join SETI and team Wikipedia.
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_172338.html


from_name: Allan Crossman

subject:
[Wikitech-l] automated TeX-like dashes (-- for –
	and --- for — )?

body:
> Just a suggestion, it would be great if it were easier to do
> proper dash typography. I find TeX's -/--/--- convention for
> hyphen/en-dash/em-dash to be fairly intuitive.
>
> Right now, if you do — in the text, it makes things
> much less readable and is confusing for newbies.  The need
> for these glyphs is so common that wiki support seems
> worthwhile.

Actually, what is the need for these glyphs? :-)

I've been resisting for some time the strange obsession people
have with typing — when a simple "-" character will do.
When used as a dash, it's easily distinguised from a hyphen by
the fact that it has spaces on either side of it.

--
Allan Crossman - http://dogma.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
PGP keys - 0x06C4BCCA (new) || 0xCEC9FAE1 (compatible)


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Time to clean out my closet.

body:
On 20 Jan 2004, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

> Okay. I an committed. I will  post this.
>
> First off. The whole situation about the mediation
> committee has two/three nasty connotations.
>
> There is an advertisement with a dog that says:
> "Do as we like, or the dog dies!"
>
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that
the mediation committee is under a death threat, or that
people with disagreements must seek mediation?

AFAIK, mediation is entirely voluntary. It's a way to cut
thru the misunderstandings & try to communicate with other
people.

The only time either mediation or arbitration could be seen
as a threat is if a contributor refuses all entreaties to
"explain her/his side", & continues with troubling behavior,
e.g., blanking certain pages. But since we are supposed to
be all working together here on Wikipedia, refusing to talk
to the other contributors would seem to be an odd way to
behave.
>
[snip]
>
> I personally have no idea why Jimbo qualified me for the
> mediation committee. Maybe perhaps because to do otherwise
> would mean that he would have to explain any and all other
> similar decicions.

Perhaps he thought you'd be good at mediating?
>
[snip]
>
> Geoff (llwyrch) I know not at all.

I sent Jimbo a private letter & volunteered for the task. As for
knowing me, I have posted to the wiki-EN list a bit, & have stated
my opinions on a few Talk: pages.
>
[snipping a number of evalutations]

I'm not sure there is any reason why we should like each other.
It will definitely benefit us all if we act respectfully towards
one another, though. The committee is a list of people who are
willing to try to keep people talking to each other, to find
some kind of common ground, & keep people from engaging in wasteful
activities like reversion & edit wars. I would imagine if two
people wanted mediation, but with a person who wasn't a member of
the committee, that there would be no problem with their choice --
as long as that person was willing to mediate.

Some people won't ever be happy with how things are at Wikipedia.
Mediation is (hopefully) a way to address those folks who could
be happy here.

Geoff


subject: [WikiEN-l] Toxins are good for you

body:
Sheldon,

Since you are the author of "Toxic Sludge Is Good For You", I wonder
what your considered opinion is of hormesis. Too much arsenic will kill
you, but does that mean the less the better? Advocates of the hormesis
theory say that the optimum amount of arsenic and some other stuff is
significantly greater than zero.

Kind of like, a no-salt diet is bad for you, because that leads to
dehydration or something (I don't know the language of science as well
as you). But too much salt is bad, too.

Or, like, not enough water and you die of thirst, but drinking gallons
and gallons of can kill ya.

Before I start [[Hormesis]], I'd like to hear from someone we can trust:
an expert.

Ed Poor


from_name: KNOTT, T

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mr Natural Health

body:
I'm sorry but I accidentally wiped my old emails. Did we decide to do
anything about Mr Natural Health ?

Theresa


subject: [WikiEN-l] Mr Natural Health

body:
New to the list, so I missed previous discussion, but we need to do
something, I think.

Billy Mills

-----Original Message-----
From: KNOTT, T [mailto:TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk]
Sent: 20 January 2004 15:54
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Mr Natural Health

I'm sorry but I accidentally wiped my old emails. Did we decide to do
anything about Mr Natural Health ?

Theresa

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from_name: zero 0000

body:
--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> I think it's too scary to be tolerated, if someone declares
> themselves
> to be a "Nazi", especially when publicly e-mailing a person of Jewish
> ancestry. It's an implicit threat, if one takes "Nazi" as one who
> wishes or intends to kill as many Jews as he can lay his hands on.

I think that's way overboard.  This "threat" would be laughed out of
court.
A real threat is when someone says "I'm going to ..", or "watch your
back",
or "I know where you live", or a similar formulation.  If someone made
such a real threat on WP then the appropriate response would be to call
the cops.  Just saying "I'm a Nazi" is not a threat without additional
words
that suggest action towards the "threatened" person.

Actually I find the idea that calling oneself a Nazi is a worse offence
than
calling someone else a Nazi to be astonishing.  This is also true in
law, as
calling someone else a Nazi is libel but calling oneself a Nazi is
perfectly
legal.

> Let's come up with a policy for this.

Obviously personal threats cannot be tolerated.  Nor can criminal
libels.
Both should be capital offences.   If some litigous person one day
decides to sue WP for publishing a libel against him/herself, just the
costs will close us down even if the case is weak.

Zero.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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from_name: tarquin

body:
Kent Wang wrote:

>Therefore I propose that a website be created - let's call it WikiWorld
>for now - that is dedicated to news about wikis and wiki software.
>Important subjects about the application of wikis as a corporate or an
>egalitarian could be discussed on WikiWorld forums.
>
>
Sounds fun, but Wikipedia / Wikimedia is probably not the place to do it.
We may the largest wikis, but we are just one corner of wikispace, and a
very specific application of the wiki concept at that.
Talk to people at MeatBall maybe?


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bylaws

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Accessible now from
>http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/
>
>The link is on the left hand side.
>
>
>
any chance of a non-PDF version?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Terrorism, certainty,

body:
Since there seems to be some confusion over it, let me say that the
WTC attack was obviously terrorism in my opinion.  I did not ever
say or imply that it wasn't.  Apparently the point I was making was
too subtle, but I don't want to repeat it.

Zero.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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body:
Erik wrote:
>2) For all other browsers, show a sample text in an info box,
>which can be copy and pasted.

This point is *absolutely* useless and in fact counterproductive - if a
browser cannot do 1), then it should not be served 2). Newbies have been
learning wiki markup just fine by examples already in articles and by having
old timers wikify their prose.

I've already explained why 2) is always bad on the Village pump, and on this
mailing list. I also do not seem to be alone in thinking the way that I do.

But having it off by default for now is fine. Just remember the above when it
is made on by default.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Tim Starling

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: automated TeX-like dashes (-- for –
 and --- for — )?

body:
Matthew Brown wrote:
> Nikola Smokenski writes>
>
>>I just want to say that in C and some other programming languages'
>
> sources,
>
>>-- must remain -- and must not be converted to en-dash. But perhaps
>
> this
>
>>could be solved with <nowiki></nowiki> tags.
>
>
> I'd go with the solved via nowiki tags.  One should not rely on
> programming language source passing through the parser unscathed in any
> event.
>
> -Matt (User:Morven on WP)

Note that <pre> tags are treated in essentially the same way as <nowiki>
tags in the current parser. Hence much of the code in Wikipedia will
require no modification.

-- Tim Starling


body:
Erik wrote:
>Nonsense. It gives the user a quick overview of all major
>layout functions.

I am a user, you are a developer. When a bunch of users say something is not useful, it would make
sense for the developer to *listen* and not just say "nonsense".

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Geoffrin update

body:
We started getting some weird errors from the database for a few
minutes; "lost connection from server" and "syntax errors" on
statements that looked fine.

Checking the mysql and system error logs on geoffrin I found that
mysqld threads were getting killed off due to out-of-memory conditions.
I've lowered the key and innodb buffer sizes (from 384M each to 256M)
and restarted it, hopefully this will be fine.

Also I noticed that the clock on geoffrin has drifted; it's 8 hours and
a little bit off. This may be due to the hardware clock not getting
updated properly after the OS being set to UTC. I haven't recorrected
it yet because I'm not sure if it'll affect anything in the database to
set the time _backwards_ several hours. Timestamps in the db all come
from the webservers, so this shouldn't affect anything on the wiki to
leave it for a bit.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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