body:
Hello,

As a Translation subcommittee chair speaking however on an individual
basis, I would like to point out that we are volunteer teams and you
have no reason to say what we "should" do and so on. I understand
there are some heay needs and expectations, and I myself expect to see
some translated sooner or later and always I am very happy to get a
new, well proofread translations, but again I daresay there is no
translation we *should* do.

If you think something should be translated until a certain time, I
recommend you to propose the translation budget which will allows to
get contract basis translations. I strongly states in this
circumstance there is nothing we *should* do - all our current
translators are unpaid volunteers who must care for their real life
concerns.

Thank you for your understanding,

On 12/22/06, Gary Kirk <gary.kirk at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think what should be taken from all this is that translation
> requests should be made and publicised *well* before the whatever
> we're translating about happens - for stuff we know about obviously -
> like the Fundraiser. 'The Fundraiser starts tomorrow' is not much
> notice, is it?
>
> On 12/22/06, habj <sweetadelaide at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2006/12/22, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I doubt that will make a difference, as I only used the notes that
> > > were in English to help me.  Provided that a Thai dictionary, for
> > > instance, has similar quality notes (and this is a good but not
> > > exceptional dictionary) I see no reason why this should be impossible.
> > >
> > > Yes, a knowledge of the language and culture is helpful.  But it's not
> > > completely impossible to manage without for these simple phrases.
> >
> > IMHO we are splitting hairs. Of course there exists lists of words
> > that are simple enough that they can be translated with only a
> > dictionary! (and some context, or you can not use the explanation and
> > notes in your dictionary). The question is how common these cases are,
> > and I'd say that partly depends on how afraid you are of silly
> > mistakes. One might realise that when put in context, the simple word
> > has the wrong grammatical form... since the language one translates
> > from does not distinguish between these two etc. etc. ad nauseam.
> >
> > I've translated MediaWiki messages "blindly". It often worked OK, some
> > had to be tweaked when we discovered where they were used. That was no
> > big deal. In PR material, such as this fundraising stuff, silly
> > mistakes look much worse. I think this discussion still somehow hovers
> > around the topic of C.O.R.E. and to me it is clear that a translation
> > with just a dictionary would be less satisfactory, so that correct
> > English in most cases is a better alternative.
> >
> > /habj
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Gary Kirk
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Aphaia

subject: [Foundation-l] Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org


list: wikien-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 41, Issue 153

body:
Sarah wrote:

>I don't mean that we should only use sources that are *easily*
>available, because that would be very limiting, but they must be
>reasonably available in the English-speaking world. I can't be precise
>about what I mean by "reasonable," but broadly speaking the man in the
>street should not have to move mountains, or pay a great deal of
>money, to obtain the material if he's determined to find it, and the
>source must be a published, citable one, not something circulated
>within a limited group of people.
>
Even there one must be flexible.  If one of our objectives is to free
this kind of information we are being pro-active in using it as
references.  If it is not reasonably available to the man on the street
we should be looking for ways to make it available rather than
suppressing references to it.

Even when we refer to "something circulated within a limited group of
people" we can't be too rigid.  I have, for example, a large bound
typescript record of the papers presented at an international conference
held in Utrecht in 1950.  I suspect that its circulation was limited to
conference attendees.  I don't know if any of the papers were published
elsewhere, or how many other copies survive.  It's still recent enough
for most of the papers to be protected by copyright, but old enough for
some of them to be orphans.  Does it advance human knowledge to suppress
the material?  Isn't it better to find ways to make it available?

>>The other issue is that of Original Research, and where "collation and
>>organization" becomes OR.
>>
>>
>The issues of availability of sources and OR merge when a Wikipedian
>explores a database that isn't widely available, as Zero was
>suggesting, adds his own interpretation of his research on that
>database to an article, and then calls the database his "source," even
>though there isn't a single document in that database that actually
>supports what he's saying. In other words, he has no citable,
>published source. That's a violation of NOR and V; it's a misuse of
>the primary source (the database); and it's arguably not reasonable to
>expect the man in the street to find a way to duplicate the research.
>
>But otherwise, yes, I agree it's best to keep the two issues -- OR and
>availability of source material -- separate.
>
If you really believe they are separate issues then don't try to run
them beck together.  I like to look at databases as some kind of
metastructure of sources.  There is nothing "primary" to such databases
at all.  Whether Zero is correct to call them his source depends on how
strictly you want to define that word.

Ec


list: foundation-l

from_name: Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz

subject:
[Foundation-l] Comparision of Polish Wikipedia and Polish edition
 of Larousse in Polish edition of Newsweek

body:
In Polish edition of Newsweek from 31.12.06 there is a supplement called
"Future of information". Although it is not pointed clearly this
supplement is obviously sponsored by Larousse Poland and in fact it is a
kind of "smart" advertisement of Polish edition of "Popular Larousse
Encyclopedia".

Among other articles describing advantages of Larousse over Polish
Scientific Publishers (PWN, http://en.pwn.pl/) encyclopedias and other
potential "paper" competitors of Larousse in Poland, there is also large
article comparing Larousse's encyclopedia with Polish Wikipedia.

The comparison is based on three articles "Anatomia" (anatomy), "Islam"
and "Ogniwo s?oneczne" (solar cell). One of these articles is marked
"stub" in Polish Wikipedia, the second one is disambig, the third one is
normal, long article. What is interesting, there is no claims that there
are factual mistakes in Wikipedia, however the comparison points out
that the consistency of text, amount and quality of pictures and ease of
reading is much better in Larousse than in Wikipedia. As I personally
can agree with better consistency of text and ease of reading, the
claims that amount and quality of pictures is better is based only on
the pictures one can see in articles, completely ignoring what can be
found in linked galleries in Commons and after clicking on bigger
versions of pictures. Of course the selection of articles for comparison
was also not random but made by choice of guys from Larousse. Other sets
of articles could probably give completely different results.

Anyway, I think the fact that this sponsored supplement put much more
place to compare their encyclopedia with Wikipedia (three pages long
article) and not to the other formally more serious competitors like PWN
encyclopedia and Polish edition of Brittanica is interesting by itself.
It shows that Larousse is more afraid of us than of PWN or Brittanica...
or  we were simply easer target of not very fair negative comparison.

--
Tomasz "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedysta:Polimerek
http://www.poli.toya.net.pl/
http://www.ptchem.lodz.pl/pl/TomaszGanicz.html


from_name: David Ashby

subject: [WikiEN-l] New Wikipedia posters in the store: Think Free

body:
On 12/22/06, Ben Yates <bluephonic at gmail.com> wrote:
> I designed this poster/campaign and thought you guys would be
> interested.  (Mav came up with the slogan.)
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Think_Free

Very nice!  If I was more faithful in the quality of Cafepress posters
I'd likely buy one!

-david


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Registering www.wikipedia.cat for ca.wikipedia.org

body:
Claudi Meneghin wrote:

>Hi all,
>I would like to suggest to register www.wikipedia.cat for ca.wikipedia.org; however I am not sure that this is the right place. Thnk you.
>
I don't believe that there is such a thing as a ".cat" top level domain.

Ec


body:
Thank you for your interest. On the other hand I don't know you at all
- it unlikely happened, if you are working on this sphere. And we
really need 1) who knows what translation is and 2) who are
trustworthy. From this thread I failed to have such feeling (1, but
thank you for your interest, anyway. .

On 12/23/06, Gary Kirk <gary.kirk at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, substitue 'should' for 'it might be better if' if you wish. I am
> not saying this as a random outsider, I would like to be involved with
> at least making a start translating, so maybe I should join the
> Translation subcommitee, if that is an option?
>
> On 12/22/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > As a Translation subcommittee chair speaking however on an individual
> > basis, I would like to point out that we are volunteer teams and you
> > have no reason to say what we "should" do and so on. I understand
> > there are some heay needs and expectations, and I myself expect to see
> > some translated sooner or later and always I am very happy to get a
> > new, well proofread translations, but again I daresay there is no
> > translation we *should* do.
> >
> > If you think something should be translated until a certain time, I
> > recommend you to propose the translation budget which will allows to
> > get contract basis translations. I strongly states in this
> > circumstance there is nothing we *should* do - all our current
> > translators are unpaid volunteers who must care for their real life
> > concerns.
> >
> > Thank you for your understanding,
> >
> > On 12/22/06, Gary Kirk <gary.kirk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think what should be taken from all this is that translation
> > > requests should be made and publicised *well* before the whatever
> > > we're translating about happens - for stuff we know about obviously -
> > > like the Fundraiser. 'The Fundraiser starts tomorrow' is not much
> > > notice, is it?
> > >
> > > On 12/22/06, habj <sweetadelaide at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 2006/12/22, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I doubt that will make a difference, as I only used the notes that
> > > > > were in English to help me.  Provided that a Thai dictionary, for
> > > > > instance, has similar quality notes (and this is a good but not
> > > > > exceptional dictionary) I see no reason why this should be impossible.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, a knowledge of the language and culture is helpful.  But it's not
> > > > > completely impossible to manage without for these simple phrases.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO we are splitting hairs. Of course there exists lists of words
> > > > that are simple enough that they can be translated with only a
> > > > dictionary! (and some context, or you can not use the explanation and
> > > > notes in your dictionary). The question is how common these cases are,
> > > > and I'd say that partly depends on how afraid you are of silly
> > > > mistakes. One might realise that when put in context, the simple word
> > > > has the wrong grammatical form... since the language one translates
> > > > from does not distinguish between these two etc. etc. ad nauseam.
> > > >
> > > > I've translated MediaWiki messages "blindly". It often worked OK, some
> > > > had to be tweaked when we discovered where they were used. That was no
> > > > big deal. In PR material, such as this fundraising stuff, silly
> > > > mistakes look much worse. I think this discussion still somehow hovers
> > > > around the topic of C.O.R.E. and to me it is clear that a translation
> > > > with just a dictionary would be less satisfactory, so that correct
> > > > English in most cases is a better alternative.
> > > >
> > > > /habj
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gary Kirk
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > KIZU Naoko
> >   Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
> >   * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Gary Kirk
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *


from_name: Ryan Wetherell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Top posting poll; was Re: MONGO and the ArbCom

body:
Ubi'm hubavubing truboububle ubunduberstubandubing thubis thrubead!!!

--Ryan


subject: [WikiEN-l] "Assume good faith" is no longer policy.

body:
On 12/22/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/12/06, Earle Martin <wikipedia at downlode.org> wrote:
>
> > See also http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith
>
>
> 500 error! Anyone got a copy?
>
>
> - d.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060212050612/http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith


subject:
[Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects
	other communities

body:
Thank you for noticing us, Birgitte SB,
I informed the Japanese community about this change.

Kudos to Radiant! and all other who have participated this discussion
here and there. Thank you for your comments and interest.

Some noted other communities than English Wikipedia would face the
similar problem to dealing vandals and understand how things appear to
their vandal fighters. Sadly true, perhaps, but it also suggests that
it is one of problems which deserves the global attention of whole
Wikimedia community. Already some suggestions and ideas are submitted
both to the lists and to talks on English Wikipedia, and I expect we
reach more thoughtful and effective way of problems which were pointed
out through our discussion.

I would like to hereby appreciate Birgitte SB specially among those
who showed interest, she was exactly the first person who paid
attention this concern. Since October, when I brought it up first to a
public discussion, her support has been really my comfort. Also i
appreciate all others who have cared for this issue and tried to
resolve.

Luna, would you mind to forward this message of mine to wikien-l
again? ;) Without discussion there, henceforth your suggestion to
bring it up there, things wouldn't have been shared so widely.

Cheers,

On 12/23/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>
> I would encourage everyone to continue to work on
> ideas to help with vandal-fighting.  With SUL, I think
> there will be even stronger benefits to collabortaion
> across wikis on these issues.  One important issue
> would be finding a way to share information on these
> sleeper accounts who turnout to be blatant vandals
> since all blocks will be local only.  There is always
> the possibilty one might careless show himself to be a
> vandal on one wiki while still gathering posistive
> edits on others.  Currently there is no way to
> distinguish why a person was blocked outside of being
> to read block summaries which has serious limitations.
>
>
> Birgitte SB
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *


from_name: Oldak Quill

subject:
[Foundation-l] Comparision of Polish Wikipedia and Polish
	edition of Larousse in Polish edition of Newsweek

body:
On 23/12/06, Tomek Polimerek Ganicz <polimerek at gmail.com> wrote:
> What is interesting, there is no claims that there
> are factual mistakes in Wikipedia, however the comparison points out
> that the consistency of text, amount and quality of pictures and ease of
> reading is much better in Larousse than in Wikipedia.

Well, these faults are very fixable and can easily be changed. Unlike
claims of factual accuracy, they do not come down to the fundamental
model in which we are working.

Still, with Commons available, I'm surprised "quality of pictures" was
a criticism. Wikimedia seems to have a wide range of high-quality
pictures at its disposal.

Could you explain what you mean by "consistency of text"? Consistency
in writing style?

--
Oldak Quill (oldakquill at gmail.com)


from_name: Milos Rancic

subject:
[Foundation-l] To all non latin wikis please start blocking
	latin wiki accounts

body:
On 12/22/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> In Cyrillic Alphabet: ????????

At least not correct in Serbian and Macedonian. We don't have "?" and
we don't have double "?".

Keep in mind that Russian-Bulgarian transcription of Latin names would
be treated as offensive at Serbian and Macedonian projects.


body:
On 12/23/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> I apologise for the audacious use of those letters. Do you know where I can
> find a better way to get words transliterated?

Don't appologise, you didn't try to implement it on our projects :)

Hm. In Serbian and Macedonian we are using strictly transcriptions,
not transliterations. So, it should be something like
English->IPA->Serbian/Macedonian. Howerver, the process is not so
simple and in some cases we are using combinied transcription and
transliteration, as well as somtimes historic names. The best examples
are name Angela and surname Wales -- for both of them we are using
historical names (not transcription ??????? but historical name
??????; not transcription ?????, but historical name for the country
Walest -- ????). However, engine is possible.

Slovenian and Latvian are also strictly alphabetic-phonetic and even
those languages are written in Latin script, people may demand
transcription, not transliteration.

So, keep in mind that asking for transcriptions in English means
opening Pandora's box on other projects.


from_name: Luna

subject:
[Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire (was:
	English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities)

body:
On 12/22/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Pros:
> - Less of a technical issue on English Wikipedia for those who don't have
> the ability (or permission) to install new fonts
> - Allows people of the community to identify people with a name they can
> understand, as opposed to using what they will just see as squiggly lines.

[snip]

Cons:
> - Does not allow people to use the name they really want.
> - SUL issues: with all sorts of different usernames, it'll be hard to have
> a
> -single- user login when you have to have multiple because of script
> requirements.
>
> I've stated this many times -- I like the idea of system transliteration
> for
> each wiki. Or at least a way to have an identity that's different from the
> username you log in with, so you can have a uniform username but you can
> be
> identified with what will be considered a comprehendable name.

Personally, I'm torn. With the utmost respect to all involved in the
discussion, I would find it incredibly difficult to relate to usernames in
scripts that I absolutely cannot recognize (just as an example, I can't
reliably tell the difference between two names in Arabic script, much less
type them out in the course of a conversation). I can also understand the
anger and frustration of those who have been blocked, and I certainly don't
want to hurt anyone's feelings.

It seems to be a "catch-22" -- the two widely proposed options both have
negative consequences. System transliteration, of some sort, is starting to
look better, from where I'm sitting. Perhaps allow the system to make a
"best guess," which the user can then modify, if they so choose, much like
our current signatures system?

I think we need to find a "middle road," if at all possible. System
transliteration seems to be the only such proposal -- if anybody else has
got any ideas, now's the time.

Just a thought,
-Luna


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject:
[Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects
 other communities

body:
I'll drink to that :)

Thanks Birgitte !

Waerth

>The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>
>I would encourage everyone to continue to work on
>ideas to help with vandal-fighting.  With SUL, I think
>there will be even stronger benefits to collabortaion
>across wikis on these issues.  One important issue
>would be finding a way to share information on these
>sleeper accounts who turnout to be blatant vandals
>since all blocks will be local only.  There is always
>the possibilty one might careless show himself to be a
>vandal on one wiki while still gathering posistive
>edits on others.  Currently there is no way to
>distinguish why a person was blocked outside of being
>to read block summaries which has serious limitations.
>
>
>Birgitte SB
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>


from_name: Kat Walsh

body:
On 12/22/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> I regret to post my previous mail. You English Wikipedians shall be
> cursed of disclimination.
>
> I have told to the Japanese community you lifted up that fool
> ethnocentric and discliminative policy. I would like to add some
> editors hadn't believed Engilsh Wikipedia did enforce so a
> discliminative policy. You made me a liar. Well, it is not a big deal,
> but still the fact remains you are racists.

Aphaia, I am very sorry that you feel this way. But I do not think
this post is very fair.

Here are a few things I see, on the whole thread.

1. No one is interested in blocking anyone because of beliefs about ethnicity.

It is a problem for administrators on any wiki to handle usernames
they cannot read or type. Reasonable people can disagree about whether
the problem justifies enwiki's current ways of dealing with it. And
reasonable people *do* disagree, which is why this thread has gone on
for so long and why there is so much argument about it. But it is not
about racism.

2. It is currently very difficult for users on any wiki, not just
English, to interact with users who do not have a username in the
script of that wiki's language.

If you cannot read or type someone's username, it is hard to talk to
them, hard to tell people apart, hard to search for their
contributions, and many other things. In addition to the trouble
talking to real users, vandals know that it is difficult, and because
of this, they like to use this extra difficulty to cause trouble. And
I don't expect users on wikis where the language is not in Latin
script to be able to read a Latin script name, either.

3. Whether or not the policy is right, it doesn't excuse being rude to anybody.

If anyone has been blocked with an uncivil message, or has not been
asked politely about changing their username, that administrator is
acting badly. But that is a fault of the person, not of the policy,
and that should stop no matter what else happens.

4. Everyone would like a good solution to this.

If there were currently a solution that allowed editors to keep their
preferred names on every wiki, but allowed the users of every wiki to
interact with them without too much difficulty, everyone would be
happy. No one here wants to make others upset for no reason.

5. Solving this is difficult, and currently there is no fix that makes
everyone entirely happy.

There are many attempts to deal with it that make people unhappy, and
just about every different attempted fix or work-around makes a
*different* group of people unhappy.

6. Making the argument personal is not helping anyone get the
solutions they want.

There are a lot of people who are coming at this problem in good
faith, even if not everyone agrees with what they are doing. There are
a lot of people who have decided not to participate in this thread
because they do not want to be attacked or flamed. And we lose the
input of people who do want to help, but who either now feel like they
are not wanted or who do not want to get into an argument in the first
place.

7. Taking arguments personally is only going to make you miserable.

No one is participating here just because they want to make anyone
else feel bad or look foolish. It's not a personal argument, and if
you feel like it is personal then perhaps it is time to step back and
take a break, go outside and relax and then come back. (If everyone
did that, there would not be so many messages to read, either.)

*

I would love a solution that makes everyone happy. I think there are
possibilities for solutions that will make it easier for everyone to
be happy. But we do not have them yet, and so it is still a real
problem with many different sides to it.

I am sorry that you feel that you are being made to look like a fool,
or that you believe this is being done to be hurtful. But it is not
fair to make remarks such as this, or such as have been made by many
others at many other points in the thread, when everyone here is
coming at the problem in good faith. Even if you disagree with them.

Effe iets anders posted earlier asking everyone to step back and not
take things personally, to recognize that reasonable people who do not
mean harm can disagree. I agree, and I have written at more length
than he has, but wanted to say more completely what I saw. I do not
see anyone here who has the intention of harming anyone, and I think
the thread would be much better and more productive if we could all
assume this to be true.

-Kat

--
Wikimedia needs you: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising
* *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mindspillage | (G)AIM:Mindspillage
mindspillage or mind|wandering on irc.freenode.net | email for phone


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

body:
On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin
> usernames that are active editors?

You wanted 20 with at least three edits between September and November
who are not blocked?

Okay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E9%96%93%E4%B9%85%E9%83%A8%E7%B7%91%E9%83%8E
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E9%96%93%E4%B9%85%E9%83%A8%E7%B7%91%E9%83%8E

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E7%99%BE%E5%AE%B6%E5%A7%93%E4%B9%8B%E5%9B%9B
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E7%99%BE%E5%AE%B6%E5%A7%93%E4%B9%8B%E5%9B%9B

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E6%B1%9F%E5%B7%9D%E5%B0%9A%E5%84%AA
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E6%B1%9F%E5%B7%9D%E5%B0%9A%E5%84%AA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E3%81%BE%E3%81%AC
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E3%81%BE%E3%81%AC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E2%88%9A2
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E2%88%9A2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E2%82%ACpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E2%82%ACpa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%AA%D1%8B%D1%8C
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%D0%AA%D1%8B%D1%8C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8_%D0%90%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8_%D0%90%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80_%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%87%D1%91%D0%B2
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80_%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%87%D1%91%D0%B2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%92%D0%B5_%D0%94._%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%9B
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%D0%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%92%D0%B5_%D0%94._%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%9B

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%A6
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%CE%A6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%A0rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%CE%A0rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%99%CE%9C%CE%91%CE%A7%CE%9F%CE%A3
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%99%CE%9C%CE%91%CE%A7%CE%9F%CE%A3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%88%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%CE%88%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Macanese%E9%A6%AC%E4%BA%A4%E4%BA%BA
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Macanese%E9%A6%AC%E4%BA%A4%E4%BA%BA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/HOM%D0%AF
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:HOM%D0%AF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%A3
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%C2%A3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/S3%2A%C6%92wN%C3%A2er5
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:S3%2A%C6%92wN%C3%A2er5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%21%22%C2%A3%24
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%21%22%C2%A3%24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/J%E2%80%A2A%E2%80%A2K
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:J%E2%80%A2A%E2%80%A2K

So thats 20, there are more.. but I pulled these out of a list of
non-ascii names by hand... I also tried to avoid names which were
mostly latin characters but used a non-latin for garnish.

Overall there are fewer then I expected.. but there are not all that
many in the blocked list that don't look like vandals... so..
::shrugs::


body:
On 12/23/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Which is more useful on a given wiki:
>
> a) System transliteration into the script(s) of that wiki (which will
> apparently lead to tremendous offence to people not even using the
> wiki);
> b) Optionally append a user-ID number to the non-local script name,
> and have this user-ID work for blocks, log-checking, etc. (will
> apparently offend people who want to be "????????" rather than a
> number)
> c) Disallow both the above and require the usernames to be displayed
> in a script unreadable to the native speakers on that wiki (which will
> lead to near-automatic blocking as happens now, because you KNOW the
> vandals will exploit it big time)
>

As you've illustrated, there's no perfect solution. =\ I'm not even sure
which of those *I* would be okay with, and I very much doubt I can speak for
everybody here. I'm still hoping somebody will have a brilliant idea that
saves us all.

Here's hoping.

-Luna


body:
On 12/23/06, David Ashby <humble.fool at gmail.com> wrote:
> Very nice!  If I was more faithful in the quality of Cafepress posters
> I'd likely buy one!

<cynic>Any bets on how long until they manage to grab an unfree image
that was incorrectly labeled on Wikipedia, or manage to reprint a
paragraph from a modern edition of Britannica that someone inserted
and we failed to catch? </cynic>

;)


from_name: geni

body:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,

There is no pratical way to do that.

--
geni


body:
On 12/23/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hoi,
> Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only describes
> a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the
> issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
>
>
> http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AF_%D9%85%D8%B3%DB%8C%D8%AD_%D9%85%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1%DA%A9_%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AF

I'm not sure if I understand, sorry -- I don't see how that thread was "
en.wikipedia only," but it's possible that I'm just missing it. I've only
done any significant editing at en.wikipedia and simple.wikipedia,
unfortunately. Having experience at more of them would probably help me to
broaden my horizons.

As for the WiktionaryZ/OmegaWiki link, is that automated, or is that all set
up by hand? I'm not too familiar with it.

-Luna


from_name: Sarah

subject: [WikiEN-l] POV on Israel

body:
On 12/23/06, Argis Rohat <argis.rohat at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is the entire passage under the heading "Israel" in the article
> "Allegations of apartheid"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid
>
> Does any objective person consider it to be NPOV?

Could you say which editor you are, please, given the amount of
sockpuppetry that has gone on there? ~~~~


from_name: Argis Rohat

subject: [WikiEN-l] POV on Israel

body:
This is the entire passage under the heading "Israel" in the article
"Allegations of apartheid"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid

Does any objective person consider it to be NPOV?

*Israel*
 *Main article:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>Allegations
of Israeli apartheid<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid>
*

The phrase "Israeli apartheid" (or the terming of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>Israel<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel>an
"apartheid state") is a controversial phrase used by some critics of
Israel, who compare Israel's treatment of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>Palestinians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians>with
the treatment of blacks in apartheid-era South Africa.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[82]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Pilger>The
majority of academics and journalists who have commented on the term
are
reported to deplore its use
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[83]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Adam>on
the grounds that it is historically inaccurate,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>antisemitic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[84]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Pulzer>propaganda,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[83]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Adam>and
a
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>political
epithet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_epithet>used to justify
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>terrorist attacks
against Israel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism>.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[85]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Phillips>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>
-------
For one thing the sentence states as fact that the term "Israeli apartheid"
is "*historically inaccurate,
*antisemitic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism>
  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>, propaganda,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>and a
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>political
epithet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_epithet>used to justify
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>terrorist attacks
against Israel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism>.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>" something a
wikipedia article should not be asserting. Secondly the paragaraph is not
neutral and strongly weighted with the view that Israeli apartheid is not an
acceptable term.

Several editors have attempted to correct this paragraph's bias but they
have been blocked by a larger number of determined editors pushing a POV
against the term.


subject: [Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire

body:
On 12/22/06, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
> This was shown several times to be false.

Where has it been shown that they are being automatically blocked?

Or do we have a misunderstanding about the word automatically perhaps?


body:
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia, so other communities
would be able to know is this something which is dominant position on
English Wikipedia or not.

On 12/23/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> I regret to post my previous mail. You English Wikipedians shall be
> cursed of disclimination.
>
> I have told to the Japanese community you lifted up that fool
> ethnocentric and discliminative policy. I would like to add some
> editors hadn't believed Engilsh Wikipedia did enforce so a
> discliminative policy. You made me a liar. Well, it is not a big deal,
> but still the fact remains you are racists.
>
> Bye,
>
> > Today it includes a little less explanation and the word avoid was removed.
> >
> > "Names with non-Latin characters: Unfortunately, most of your fellow
> > editors will be unable to read a name written in Cyrillic, Chinese,
> > Japanese, Korean, or other scripts. Many of them will also be
> > additionally burdened, as such names may be displayed for them only as
> > question marks ("??? ??"), squares ("??? ??"), replacement characters
> > ("??? ??") or worse, nonsense or mojibake ("?!%?s*"). If your name is
> > usually written in a non-Latin script, please consider transliterating
> > it to avoid confusion, and allow easier access to your talk page by
> > typing your name in the search field or URL bar."
> >
> >
> > If you really can read that as bias.. then I'm afraid we're just going
> > to have to disagree.
> >
> > I guess I'll just have to be branded a "bigot against people named
> > mathematical symbols". ;)
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
> --
> KIZU Naoko
>   Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
>   * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] POV on Israel

body:
Sorry, let's try this again:

This is the entire passage under the heading "Israel" in the article
"Allegations of apartheid"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid

Does any objective person consider it to be NPOV?

ISRAEL
"The phrase "Israeli apartheid" (or the terming of Israel an
"apartheid state") is a controversial phrase used by some critics of
Israel, who compare Israel's treatment of Palestinians with the
treatment of blacks in apartheid-era South Africa. The majority of
academics and journalists who have commented on the term are reported
to deplore its use
on the grounds that it is historically inaccurate, antisemitic,
propaganda, and a political epithet used to justify terrorist attacks
against Israel.

-------
For one thing the sentence states as fact that the term "Israeli
apartheid" is "historically inaccurate, antisemitic, propaganda, and a
political epithet used to justify terrorist attacks against Israel"
something a wikipedia article should not be asserting. Secondly the
paragaraph is not neutral and strongly weighted with the view that
Israeli apartheid is not an
acceptable term.

Several editors have attempted to correct this paragraph's bias but
they have been blocked by a larger number of determined editors
pushing a POV against the term.


body:
On 12/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
>
> There is no pratical way to do that.

(Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it
on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.


subject:
[Foundation-l] To all non latin wikis please start blocking latin
	wiki accounts

body:
After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.

Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
want to use their REAL NAME.

Start with Gregory's account btw.

Waerth

>Gregory Maxwell schreef:
>
>
>>On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
>>
>>It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
>>people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
>>enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
>>
>>As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
>>to the talk page.
>>
>>I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
>>concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
>>many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
>>address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
>>in the first place.
>>
>>
>Hoi,
>Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
>reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
>by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
>no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
>wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
>to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
>thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
>place is seriously wrong.
>
>I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
>
>Thanks,
>     GerardM
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Second problem re POV on Israel

body:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid
>

The introduction to the article is also very POV:

"The term *apartheid* commonly refers to South African apartheid , a former
official policy of political, legal, and economic racial
discrimination against nonwhites.
The application of the term to situations other than apartheid in South
Africa is controversial and disputed, and is regarded as a political
epithet."

1) The intro suggests that any use of the term apartheid to
describe situations outside of South Africa is a "political epithet" when 3
of 4 sources provided only refer to the use of the term apartheid to
describe Israel
and the fourth says "cultural apartheid" is an epithet.

2) the intro seems to assert as a fact that the term is a "politcial
epithet" when in fact that's a POV.

> Does any objective person consider it to be NPOV?
>
> *Israel* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>
>  *Main article: Allegations of Israeli apartheid
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>
> *
>
> The phrase "Israeli apartheid" (or the terming of Israel<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel>an "apartheid state") is a controversial phrase used by some critics of
> Israel, who compare Israel's treatment of
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>Palestinians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians>with the treatment of blacks in apartheid-era South Africa.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[82]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Pilger>The majority of academics and journalists who have commented on the term are
> reported to deplore its use
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[83]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Adam>on the grounds that it is historically inaccurate,
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>antisemitic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[84]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Pulzer>propaganda,
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[83]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Adam>and a
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>political epithet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_epithet>used to justify
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>terrorist attacks
> against Israel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism> .
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[85]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Phillips>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>
> -------
> For one thing the sentence states as fact that the term "Israeli
> apartheid" is "*historically inaccurate, *antisemitic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism>
>   <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>, propaganda, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>and a
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>political epithet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_epithet>used to justify
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>terrorist attacks
> against Israel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism>.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>" something a
> wikipedia article should not be asserting. Secondly the paragaraph is not
> neutral and strongly weighted with the view that Israeli apartheid is not an
> acceptable term.
>
> Several editors have attempted to correct this paragraph's bias but they
> have been blocked by a larger number of determined editors pushing a POV
> against the term.
>


subject:
[Foundation-l] To all non latin wikis please start
 blocking	latin wiki accounts

body:
>* Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point
>
>
Sometimes it is extremely usefull to disrupt something to get somewhere.
Especially when the mechanism clogs up. I feel that whit such
discrimination as is happening on en: and with random blocking just
based on names some people need to wakened. What is next you are going
to block everyone who is Dutch?

>Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
>subjects is disconcerning.
>
I really believe you need to reread an earlier mail I send about my
reasons. I will inform my Ozzy, Kiwi Irish, English and American friends
here that I have a huge hate for anglosaxon related subjects. They will
have a good laugh with me about it. I am sure.

> Your prejudgment prevents any constructive discussion.
>
I am extremely prejudiced were any form of discrimination is concerned
yes. I have been on the receiving end of it far to many times in my
life. In Surinam because I was the only white one in class. From when I
was young because I am fat. And here in Thailand on occasions because I
am a foreigner. So please o please do not come to me about prejudgement.

>You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover a hypocrite.
>
Thx you forgot my other positives: Stubborn, rude and not afraid to piss
someone off. If you are looking for a politically correct person to talk
with who will talk roses in your face but who will use thorns when
talking behind your back that is not who I am, go to someone else.

>Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful, and prevents any further discussion.
>
>
Nor are the actions on the en.wikipedia. Blocking people because they
are different is not very conductive and creates hatred.

Waerth

>Bryan
>
>On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
>
>>After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
>>languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
>>accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
>>those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
>>
>>Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
>>extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
>>blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
>>want to use their REAL NAME.
>>
>>Start with Gregory's account btw.
>>
>>Waerth
>>
>>
>>
>>>Gregory Maxwell schreef:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
>>>>
>>>>It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
>>>>people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
>>>>enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
>>>>
>>>>As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
>>>>to the talk page.
>>>>
>>>>I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
>>>>concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
>>>>many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
>>>>address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
>>>>in the first place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Hoi,
>>>Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
>>>reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
>>>by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
>>>no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
>>>wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
>>>to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
>>>thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
>>>place is seriously wrong.
>>>
>>>I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>    GerardM
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>


body:
I would agree that (automatic or not) transliteration on someone's*
userpage, *so people would approximately know how to pronounce someone's
name* *would be a good idea yes. Even though it would be difficult. It
is better to have something half-working than nothing in this case.

I find the given arguments for blocking extremely weak. As Andre Engels
has said about xxth times in these threads just check someone's edits on
en: and on other wiki's. Someone should be blocked based on that (or not
blocked) not on a name (whether incomprehensible or not). And people
should wake up. With globalisation people will see more and more signs
and languages they cannot comprehend entering their own neighbourhoods
whether they like it or not.

I am seeing firsthand how more and more latin and japanese scripts based
signage influences the Thai community were I life.

I do believe most of these reactions in en: are based on dormant
xenophebia, prejudice and discrimination that in my experience is inside
everybody, also myself as I sometimes note afterwards, even though I try
to classify people in just 3 groups. People I like, people I do not like
and people I do not know what to make off.

Waerth

>Hi Walter,
>
>I don't think it's about hatred and racism so much, but rather because
>people aren't comfortable with someone with a name they can't comprehend.
>Though I don't believe we should block people because of said
>incomprehensible names. I still think the whole automatic transliteration is
>a good idea; even if it doesn't work perfectly it still gives people an idea
>of what's going on.
>
>On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>>* Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Sometimes it is extremely usefull to disrupt something to get somewhere.
>>Especially when the mechanism clogs up. I feel that whit such
>>discrimination as is happening on en: and with random blocking just
>>based on names some people need to wakened. What is next you are going
>>to block everyone who is Dutch?
>>
>>
>>
>>>Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
>>>subjects is disconcerning.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I really believe you need to reread an earlier mail I send about my
>>reasons. I will inform my Ozzy, Kiwi Irish, English and American friends
>>here that I have a huge hate for anglosaxon related subjects. They will
>>have a good laugh with me about it. I am sure.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Your prejudgment prevents any constructive discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I am extremely prejudiced were any form of discrimination is concerned
>>yes. I have been on the receiving end of it far to many times in my
>>life. In Surinam because I was the only white one in class. From when I
>>was young because I am fat. And here in Thailand on occasions because I
>>am a foreigner. So please o please do not come to me about prejudgement.
>>
>>
>>
>>>You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover a hypocrite.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Thx you forgot my other positives: Stubborn, rude and not afraid to piss
>>someone off. If you are looking for a politically correct person to talk
>>with who will talk roses in your face but who will use thorns when
>>talking behind your back that is not who I am, go to someone else.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful, and prevents any
>>>
>>>
>>further discussion.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>Nor are the actions on the en.wikipedia. Blocking people because they
>>are different is not very conductive and creates hatred.
>>
>>Waerth
>>
>>
>>
>>>Bryan
>>>
>>>On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
>>>>languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
>>>>accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
>>>>those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
>>>>extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
>>>>blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
>>>>want to use their REAL NAME.
>>>>
>>>>Start with Gregory's account btw.
>>>>
>>>>Waerth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Gregory Maxwell schreef:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
>>>>>>people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
>>>>>>enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
>>>>>>to the talk page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
>>>>>>concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
>>>>>>many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
>>>>>>address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
>>>>>>in the first place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Hoi,
>>>>>Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
>>>>>reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
>>>>>by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>been
>>
>>
>>>>>no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
>>>>>wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
>>>>>to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
>>>>>thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
>>>>>place is seriously wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>   GerardM
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>


body:
>
>
>Why is Waerth not on moderation?
>
>
>
>
With your repeated hostility towards me and GerardM I could ask the same
question. But I have the decency not to ask.

Waerth


body:
On 12/23/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> Pros:
> - Less of a technical issue on English Wikipedia for those who don't have
> the ability (or permission) to install new fonts

This may be solved like TeX: if you don't have a font, you may choose
to see images.

> - Allows people of the community to identify people with a name they can
> understand, as opposed to using what they will just see as squiggly lines.

The primary goal of Wikipedia is to make content, not to identify
people with a name that can be understandable. I don't see a reason
why it is so hard and/or so scary to click on some Chinese characters.

> Being able to fight vandalism was a pro, but then technical fixes came along
> that prohibited mixing different writing scripts.

Vandalism is not related to script and I may imagine a lot of very
hard vandalisms without any usage of letters other then A, B and C
(capital, of course).

> I've stated this many times -- I like the idea of system transliteration for
> each wiki. Or at least a way to have an identity that's different from the
> username you log in with, so you can have a uniform username but you can be
> identified with what will be considered a comprehendable name.

As I mentioned, transliteration doesn't work because some languages
require *transcription* and/or *translation*. For example, even your
name may be compltetely transliterated in Serbian (?????), it is
completely irregular and your name *has to be* trancribed (into
?????).

* * *

However, I think that the story about non-Latin characters in user
names is not supported by majority of English Wikipedia community, as
well as we should check it. If it is not supported, story and wasting
time is over; if it supports, we should think then what to do next.


body:
Transliteration from English into Serbian Cyrillic would make from
Serbian Wikipedia a completely irrelevant project in Serbia. The
matter of education is to transcribe the name, not to transliterate.
And we are not making a joke (such names would be treated as a joke),
but encyclopedia.

Maybe it is completely OK for one native English speaker to see "Qv",
but for native Serbian sepaker is a good joke to see "?????w???"
somewhere in the text. We are not able to transliterate "w" because
*our writting culture* is transcription based.

So, please, make a referendum on English Wikipedia, so other
communities would be able to know what *majority* of your community
thinks.

On 12/23/06, Nathaniel Krause <nathanielkrause at yahoo.com> wrote:
> While this may well be important, it doesn't seem to be quite the same thing as what we've been discussing, i.e. whether usernames should be transliterated into the script that is local to the Wikipedia in question, not whether the result of the transliteration will seem correct in a given language. It may be that ?? never appears in Serbian and Montenegrin, but nobody on en would object to a username containing "Qv", even though that sequence never appears in English. A topic which may have to be discussed at some point but which seems rather tangential right now is whether the Cyrillic script (or the Latin, for that matter) is one alphabet or several.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nat Krause
>
> On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic wrote:
>
>
> Hm. In Serbian and Macedonian we are using strictly transcriptions,
> not transliterations. So, it should be something like
> English->IPA->Serbian/Macedonian. Howerver, the process is not so
> simple and in some cases we are using combinied transcription and
> transliteration, as well as somtimes historic names. The best examples
> are name Angela and surname Wales -- for both of them we are using
> historical names (not transcription ??????? but historical name
> ??????; not transcription ?????, but historical name for the country
> Walest -- ????). However, engine is
>  possible.
>
>
>  __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Mark Clements

subject: [Wikitech-l] Importing images (plus deletion)

body:
"Simetrical" <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com>
wrote in message
news:7c2a12e20612220747s9627c23g4d7a7199ea9a638a at mail.gmail.com...
> On 12/22/06, christoph.huesler at css.ch
<christoph.huesler at css.ch> wrote:
> > SUL won't help with local wikis (non-wp), so 1) simply isn't true.
>
> Random wikis will not be able to delete anything from Wikipedia under
> this scheme.  Only wikis linked to it through SUL would be able to.  I
> should have thought that was obvious from my clearly-stated premises.

Except your premises were wrong. "Your username and password are the same as
on Wiki B, since SUL is implemented" - this is not the case anywhere, and
will never be the case in the example that I gave (importing WP content into
a private wiki).

However, had you specified these as *requirements* for the feature, then
that is a different matter (see below).

> I don't think allowing admins of Uncyclopedia (or any other random
> wiki) who are also Wikipedia admins to delete remotely from Wikipedia
> would be terribly useful.  Allowing Commons/Wikipedia admins (or just
> Wikipedia admins who are autoconfirmed on Commons) to delete remotely
> from Wikipedia when moving to Commons would be, and that's what this
> feature is aimed at.

If the feature is restricted to only work on wikis that share a single login
then the security risk is removed.  It may also simplify the code, e.g.
instead of having to pass the images via XML/http it could perhaps copy them
directly on the disk.  My point was that in situations where SUL isn't
available (e.g. current WM-wikis, or non-WM wikis in general) then there is
a big risk in opening up this kind of functionality.

- Mark Clements (HappyDog)


from_name: James Hare

body:
How about "Allegations of Israeli discrimination" ?

If the word "apartheid" is used in the title because some famous politician
called it that, then that should be referenced within the article text.

On 12/23/06, Argis Rohat <argis.rohat at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid
> >
>
>
> The introduction to the article is also very POV:
>
> "The term *apartheid* commonly refers to South African apartheid , a
> former
> official policy of political, legal, and economic racial
> discrimination against nonwhites.
> The application of the term to situations other than apartheid in South
> Africa is controversial and disputed, and is regarded as a political
> epithet."
>
> 1) The intro suggests that any use of the term apartheid to
> describe situations outside of South Africa is a "political epithet" when
> 3
> of 4 sources provided only refer to the use of the term apartheid to
> describe Israel
> and the fourth says "cultural apartheid" is an epithet.
>
> 2) the intro seems to assert as a fact that the term is a "politcial
> epithet" when in fact that's a POV.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Does any objective person consider it to be NPOV?
> >
> > *Israel* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>
> >  *Main article: Allegations of Israeli apartheid
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid><
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>
> > *
> >
> > The phrase "Israeli apartheid" (or the terming of Israel<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel>an "apartheid state") is a
> controversial phrase used by some critics of
> > Israel, who compare Israel's treatment of
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>Palestinians<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians>with the treatment of blacks in
> apartheid-era South Africa.
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[82]<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Pilger>The
> majority of academics and journalists who have commented on the term are
> > reported to deplore its use
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[83]<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Adam>on the
> grounds that it is historically inaccurate,
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>antisemitic<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism>
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[84]<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Pulzer
> >propaganda,
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[83]<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Adam>and a
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>political
> epithet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_epithet>used to justify
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>terrorist attacks
> > against Israel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism> .
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>[85]<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid#_note-Phillips>
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>
> > -------
> > For one thing the sentence states as fact that the term "Israeli
> > apartheid" is "*historically inaccurate, *antisemitic<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism>
> >   <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>, propaganda, <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>and a
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>political
> epithet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_epithet>used to justify
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>terrorist attacks
> > against Israel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism>.
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid>" something a
> > wikipedia article should not be asserting. Secondly the paragaraph is
> not
> > neutral and strongly weighted with the view that Israeli apartheid is
> not an
> > acceptable term.
> >
> > Several editors have attempted to correct this paragraph's bias but they
> > have been blocked by a larger number of determined editors pushing a POV
> > against the term.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Don't worry, I haven't been ignoring you, Milos. I do think there is another
issue to address: transcription -- when it comes to such projects where it's
required. For those wikis that will be fine with automatic transliteration,
that is okay, but we need a solution for wikis like Serbian Wikipedia that
need to do transcription over transliteration.

On 12/23/06, Luna <lunasantin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/23/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only describes
> > a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the
> > issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AF_%D9%85%D8%B3%DB%8C%D8%AD_%D9%85%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1%DA%A9_%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AF
>
>
> I'm not sure if I understand, sorry -- I don't see how that thread was "
> en.wikipedia only," but it's possible that I'm just missing it. I've only
> done any significant editing at en.wikipedia and simple.wikipedia,
> unfortunately. Having experience at more of them would probably help me to
> broaden my horizons.
>
> As for the WiktionaryZ/OmegaWiki link, is that automated, or is that all
> set
> up by hand? I'm not too familiar with it.
>
> -Luna
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Birgitte SB

body:
--- Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin
> > usernames that are active editors?
>
> You wanted 20 with at least three edits between
> September and November
> who are not blocked?
>
> Okay:
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E9%96%93%E4%B9%85%E9%83%A8%E7%B7%91%E9%83%8E
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E9%96%93%E4%B9%85%E9%83%A8%E7%B7%91%E9%83%8E
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E7%99%BE%E5%AE%B6%E5%A7%93%E4%B9%8B%E5%9B%9B
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E7%99%BE%E5%AE%B6%E5%A7%93%E4%B9%8B%E5%9B%9B
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E6%B1%9F%E5%B7%9D%E5%B0%9A%E5%84%AA
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E6%B1%9F%E5%B7%9D%E5%B0%9A%E5%84%AA
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E3%81%BE%E3%81%AC
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E3%81%BE%E3%81%AC
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E2%88%9A2
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E2%88%9A2
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E2%82%ACpa
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%E2%82%ACpa
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%AA%D1%8B%D1%8C
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%D0%AA%D1%8B%D1%8C
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8_%D0%90%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8_%D0%90%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80_%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%87%D1%91%D0%B2
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80_%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%87%D1%91%D0%B2
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%92%D0%B5_%D0%94._%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%9B
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%D0%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%92%D0%B5_%D0%94._%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%9B
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%A6
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%CE%A6
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%A0rate
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%CE%A0rate
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%99%CE%9C%CE%91%CE%A7%CE%9F%CE%A3
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%99%CE%9C%CE%91%CE%A7%CE%9F%CE%A3
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%88%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%CE%88%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Macanese%E9%A6%AC%E4%BA%A4%E4%BA%BA
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Macanese%E9%A6%AC%E4%BA%A4%E4%BA%BA
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/HOM%D0%AF
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:HOM%D0%AF
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%A3
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%C2%A3
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/S3%2A%C6%92wN%C3%A2er5
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:S3%2A%C6%92wN%C3%A2er5
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%21%22%C2%A3%24
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:%21%22%C2%A3%24
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/J%E2%80%A2A%E2%80%A2K
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:J%E2%80%A2A%E2%80%A2K
>
> So thats 20, there are more.. but I pulled these out
> of a list of
> non-ascii names by hand... I also tried to avoid
> names which were
> mostly latin characters but used a non-latin for
> garnish.
>

Thank you for doing this.  This shows it is quite
possible to contribute to en.WP with a non-latin
username without problems.  About half of these have
active talk pages which is more than I expected.
Clearly the blocks are coming from some admins, while
the general en.WP comunity is not going around
reporting all non-latin usernames for blocks.  I will
concede that these blocks are not a en.WP wide
practice.  I am going to leave a message to the admins
who have been setting these blocks suggesting that
they start taking them through RfC's as it is disputed
that non-latin usernames should be blocked.  The
responses to such RfC's will tell us more.

> Overall there are fewer then I expected.. but there
> are not all that
> many in the blocked list that don't look like
> vandals... so..
> ::shrugs::

Please be fair here.  Which of my 20 looked like
vandals?  How many non-vandals do you need to see to
acknowledge that people are being blocked just for a
non-latin username and not vandalism?  How many do you
need to see that are blocked with no edits to agree
that automatic blocks are happening to non-trivial
degree?  There were plently left on my list when I
stopped at twenty.

Birgitte SB

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body:
There are many ideas like this one that would solve
the problem but are outside of the design of the
system.  Perhaps these kind of ideas should sent
through wikitech-l first before everyone talks about
them here.  I know the attaching og differnet names
was not technically possible in SUL back in October
because I specifically asked after it was brought up
at the talk page.

The same thing goes for the thread on automatic
transliteration.  This does not exist for all fonts.
It is very much not possible as a global soulution,
although it could be a recommendation where it is
possible.  What can we do with the existing situation,
or else with an easy amount of deveploment?  I don't
see the point in arguing whether it acceptable or not
to adopt a technically immpossible solution.

Birgitte SB

--- James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:

> I came up with another idea, which would assume that
> SUL is in place...
> perhaps people could have multiple usernames linked
> to a single login for
> use on wikis with different scripts...
>
> On my "Messedrocker" account, if I wanted to get
> involved on, for example,
> the Greek Wikipedia, I could set up another login
> linked to my account:
> ????????c???. On Greek Wikipedia, I would set that
> as my name to be
> identified as, so while I still would be able to log
> in as Messedrocker, I
> would be identified on the wiki through recent
> changes,
> Special:Contributions, user page, etc. as
> ????????c???. The Greek alternate
> handle would be automatically registered to prevent
> impersonation (and a
> slew of other technical problems).
>
> On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Whatever. If you think that it is OK that you take
> the whole
> > responsibility for consequences for all en.wiki
> users outside of
> > en.wiki -- it's fine for me, too.
> >
> > On 12/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > On 12/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic
> <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > This case needs referendum on English
> Wikipedia,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no pratical way to do that.
> > > >
> > > > (Public) referendum is possible: just make a
> poll and then announce it
> > > > on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other
> relevant pages.
> > >
> > >
> > > So you agree it is imposible?
> > >
> > > Adding notices about policy chnages to any of
> those places is not
> > > viewed as acceptable on en.
> > > --
> > > geni
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > >
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 23/12/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:

> So, please, make a referendum on English Wikipedia, so other
> communities would be able to know what *majority* of your community
> thinks.

You still haven't made it clear how a transliteration module applied
on en:wp affects a Serbian-speaking userbase at all.

- d.


body:
On 23/12/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:

> So, please, make a referendum on English Wikipedia, so other
> communities would be able to know what *majority* of your community
> thinks.

A referendum would be to get the opinion of *all* eligible voters.
What definition of "user" or "community" are you thinking of such that
voting eligibility is clear *and* answers the question you're thinking
of?

(note that answering "en:wp should come up with something themselves"
is not an answer - you're the one demanding a referendum in several
messages in this thread. What's *your* answer?)

- d.


from_name: Michael Noda

body:
On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> It was suggested that people were given a number. This is imho
> dehumanising and I am dead against it.

May I ask why you think displaying a number next to usernames is
dehumanising?  You have stated this several times now, but I'm very
confused as to why exactly you think this.  I know that, in my life,
I've had an ID number in many contexts, and never saw it as anything
more than an aid to indexing and search for whoever issued me the
number, and never really gave the subject much thought afterwards.  So
I'm struggling to understand where you're coming from when you react
so strongly against assigning numbers, and would appreciate it if you
could help enlighten me.

-Michael Noda


from_name: Katie the Obscure

subject: [WikiEN-l] Crediting images inside the article text

body:
Several people have mentioned (in this thread) crediting authors of a
page on the page itself. Wikia has/had an attribution feature which is
somewhat similar (see http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Attribution ).
This incarnation probably wouldn't work for Wikipedia, but if it
appears useful, perhaps someone can submit a feature request/argue it
to death in the Village Pump until all our eyes are bleeding.

--
Keitei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keitei


subject: [Foundation-l] Automatic username transliteration for SUL

body:
--- Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:

> [oops, resend]
>
> On 23/12/06, Gary Kirk <gary.kirk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Look in Special:Preferences, it is displayed on
> the first tab. But I
> > have no idea what, if anything, it is used for.
>
> Interesting. Well, it shouldn't be hard to make it
> unique across the
> entire project - prepend it with "en-wp-" or
> "fr-wikt-" or "commons-"
> or "ja-ws-", arrange for it to be generally visible
> somehow, and then
> we have a ready-prepared unique "barcode" identifier
> for people to use
> in whatever manner they find appropriate.
>
> I'm not sold such a use is needed, but making those
> numbers visible to
> the user shouldn't be an impossible patch for anyone
> who feels
> inclined, and your infrastructure is there and
> waiting for you.
>
> (And, even without this modification, we *will* all
> get unique
> cross-project identifiers just as soon as SUL goes
> live, so...)
>

I have a modified proposal based on the above.  If we
could be give a new option a Special:Preferences to
chose how we wish to have idenities displayed in
histories, RC, block logs, etc. either by this
existing number of by selected username.  That way
those who prefer to see a number they can always read
can do so and those who dislike equating people with
numbers do not have to.  Since all the templates used
in warnings etc use PAGENAME parameters the editor
will be refered to as his selected name even whether
the person placing the template can type it or not.
Signatures will identify people who are actually
communicating and some  desired policy can be placed
on the kinds of fonts allowed in signatures.

Birgitte SB

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body:
And why not?

On 12/23/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don't worry, I haven't been ignoring you, Milos. I do think there is
> another issue to address: transcription -- when it comes to such projects
> where it's required. For those wikis that will be fine with automatic
> transliteration, that is okay, but we need a solution for wikis like Serbian
> Wikipedia that need to do transcription over transliteration.
>
> On 12/23/06, Luna <lunasantin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 12/23/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only
> > describes
> > > a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the
> > > issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AF_%D9%85%D8%B3%DB%8C%D8%AD_%D9%85%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1%DA%A9_%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AF
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure if I understand, sorry -- I don't see how that thread was "
> >
> > en.wikipedia only," but it's possible that I'm just missing it. I've
> > only
> > done any significant editing at en.wikipedia and simple.wikipedia,
> > unfortunately. Having experience at more of them would probably help me
> > to
> > broaden my horizons.
> >
> > As for the WiktionaryZ/OmegaWiki link, is that automated, or is that all
> > set
> > up by hand? I'm not too familiar with it.
> >
> > -Luna
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>


from_name: Jim

subject: [Wikitech-l] Sluggish access to Wikipedia

body:
I've made many positive contributions to Wikipedia and would like to continue to do so. Normally, my access to Wikipedia pages has been quick. However, for the past two or three days, my access to each Wikipedia page has been slowed considerably. When I click on a Wikipedia link for example, it now takes 20, 40, and even 60 seconds or longer for the page to fully appear on my computer screen. In addition, when I try to post items now, I've started receiving lost data messages. I've tested my computer and do not believe that the problem is on my end. Would you please help speed up my access to Wikipedia. For example, please look at my Wikipedia account. Perhaps something has changed in my account to cause my access to Wikipedia to be much slower. Thank you.
 __________________________________________________
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from_name: Gurch

subject: [WikiEN-l] POV on Israel

body:
Argis Rohat wrote:
> For one thing the sentence states as fact that the term "Israeli
> apartheid" is "historically inaccurate, antisemitic, propaganda, and a
> political epithet used to justify terrorist attacks against Israel"
> something a wikipedia article should not be asserting. Secondly the
> paragaraph is not neutral and strongly weighted with the view that
> Israeli apartheid is not an
> acceptable term.

Only if you ignore the phrase "The majority of academics and journalists
who have commented on the term are reported to deplore its use on the
grounds that...". It's not the best wording, I agree. Is it better now?

-Gurch


body:
I came up with another idea, which would assume that SUL is in place...
perhaps people could have multiple usernames linked to a single login for
use on wikis with different scripts...

On my "Messedrocker" account, if I wanted to get involved on, for example,
the Greek Wikipedia, I could set up another login linked to my account:
????????c???. On Greek Wikipedia, I would set that as my name to be
identified as, so while I still would be able to log in as Messedrocker, I
would be identified on the wiki through recent changes,
Special:Contributions, user page, etc. as ????????c???. The Greek alternate
handle would be automatically registered to prevent impersonation (and a
slew of other technical problems).

On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Whatever. If you think that it is OK that you take the whole
> responsibility for consequences for all en.wiki users outside of
> en.wiki -- it's fine for me, too.
>
> On 12/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 12/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
> > > >
> > > > There is no pratical way to do that.
> > >
> > > (Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it
> > > on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.
> >
> >
> > So you agree it is imposible?
> >
> > Adding notices about policy chnages to any of those places is not
> > viewed as acceptable on en.
> > --
> > geni
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject:
[Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire (was:
 English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities)

body:
Hoi,
You have not being paying attention. It has been indicated that
compulsory transliteration is culturally not acceptable for many people.
Also the suggestion that there has been no serious discussion up to now
makes things worse. It has been indicated by people who are seriously
involved in the Wikimedia Foundation that the reluctance, even denial
how serious this issue is perceived from outside the English language
Wikipedia is such that big words have been used to describe this
outrage. This project has already lost a lot of face. The reversal by
Gregory made inadvertently make Aphaia loose face.

 From my perspective, the POV of the English language Wikipedia is
seriously out of kilter and the room for "serious discussion" is
diminishing. I do not get the impression that the arguments are heard /
understood / taken seriously. I can envision that this will be an issue
for the board. It is not necessarily something where the English
language Wikipedia community should have it their own way.

Thanks,
    GerardM

James Hare schreef:
> Guys, girls, people (and objects) who are neither,
>
> We will not go anywhere if we keep shouting "RACISM!!!!! DIEDIEDIE" back and
> forth. I am dead serious about this.
>
> If you want to get anywhere, we must discuss objectively and address the
> issues like mature ladies and gentlemen.
>
> Pros:
> - Less of a technical issue on English Wikipedia for those who don't have
> the ability (or permission) to install new fonts
> - Allows people of the community to identify people with a name they can
> understand, as opposed to using what they will just see as squiggly lines.
>
> Being able to fight vandalism was a pro, but then technical fixes came along
> that prohibited mixing different writing scripts.
>
> Cons:
> - Does not allow people to use the name they really want.
> - SUL issues: with all sorts of different usernames, it'll be hard to have a
> -single- user login when you have to have multiple because of script
> requirements.
>
> I've stated this many times -- I like the idea of system transliteration for
> each wiki. Or at least a way to have an identity that's different from the
> username you log in with, so you can have a uniform username but you can be
> identified with what will be considered a comprehendable name.
>
> What other remedies can you suggest?
>
> Serious discussion starts now.
>
> On 12/22/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
>>>>
>>> There is no pratical way to do that.
>>>
>> (Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it
>> on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.


body:
Further on my post, I've recently been getting the following error message on almost every post:

  Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data. Please try again. If it still doesn't work, try logging out and logging back in.

Jim <jimreferee at yahoo.com> wrote:
  I've made many positive contributions to Wikipedia and would like to continue to do so. Normally, my access to Wikipedia pages has been quick. However, for the past two or three days, my access to each Wikipedia page has been slowed considerably. When I click on a Wikipedia link for example, it now takes 20, 40, and even 60 seconds or longer for the page to fully appear on my computer screen. In addition, when I try to post items now, I've started receiving lost data messages. I've tested my computer and do not believe that the problem is on my end. Would you please help speed up my access to Wikipedia. For example, please look at my Wikipedia account. Perhaps something has changed in my account to cause my access to Wikipedia to be much slower. Thank you.
__________________________________________________
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from_name: Robert Scott Horning

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>On 23/12/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Well, Brion is watching this thread and waiting for us all to stop
>trying to kill each other ...
>
>
>- d.
>
He isn't the only one.  This seems to be much ado about nothing, other
than perhaps some indivudal over-zealous admins.

Here is hoping this thread dies a quick death soon.  Please make that a
Christmas present to the Wikimedia Community!

There are other topics to spend bandwidth on, and this one has a
particularly low S/N

--
Robert Scott Horning


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Registering www.wikipedia.cat for ca.wikipedia.org

body:
2006/12/23, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>:
>
> Claudi Meneghin wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >I would like to suggest to register www.wikipedia.cat for
> ca.wikipedia.org; however I am not sure that this is the right place. Thnk
> you.
> >
> I don't believe that there is such a thing as a ".cat" top level domain.
>

However, your belief does not truth make. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.cat
http://www.google.nl/search?q=site%3A.cat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:nl:official&client=firefox-a

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


body:
On 23/12/06, Luna <lunasantin at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think we need to find a "middle road," if at all possible. System
> transliteration seems to be the only such proposal -- if anybody else has
> got any ideas, now's the time.

Which is more useful on a given wiki:

a) System transliteration into the script(s) of that wiki (which will
apparently lead to tremendous offence to people not even using the
wiki);
b) Optionally append a user-ID number to the non-local script name,
and have this user-ID work for blocks, log-checking, etc. (will
apparently offend people who want to be "????????" rather than a
number)
c) Disallow both the above and require the usernames to be displayed
in a script unreadable to the native speakers on that wiki (which will
lead to near-automatic blocking as happens now, because you KNOW the
vandals will exploit it big time)

- d.


from_name: Oldak Quill

body:
On 23/12/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> This should IMHO be the standard. Most books that publish photos "by
> permission" give the credit directly beneath the photo. We should be
> no different. And, it would help that goal of encouraging people to
> free up their photos for us.

Most books don't have a descriptive page dedicated to each image, we
do.  I don't see why duplicating this information is necessary, it
ends up cluttering the article proper.

--
Oldak Quill (oldakquill at gmail.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] POV on Israel

body:
On 23/12/06, Argis Rohat <argis.rohat at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, let's try this again:
>
>
> This is the entire passage under the heading "Israel" in the article
> "Allegations of apartheid"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_apartheid
>
> Does any objective person consider it to be NPOV?
>
> ISRAEL
> "The phrase "Israeli apartheid" (or the terming of Israel an
> "apartheid state") is a controversial phrase used by some critics of
> Israel, who compare Israel's treatment of Palestinians with the
> treatment of blacks in apartheid-era South Africa. The majority of
> academics and journalists who have commented on the term are reported
> to deplore its use
> on the grounds that it is historically inaccurate, antisemitic,
> propaganda, and a political epithet used to justify terrorist attacks
> against Israel.

We have many articles detailing contentious labels applied by some
people from a particular POV. To describe these labels
encyclopaedically, to report them, as we do, is not showing POV
ourselves.

Take a look at [[List of ethnic slurs]]: the reporting of these terms
does not necessitate an institutional belief in any one of them.

--
Oldak Quill (oldakquill at gmail.com)