from_name: Marco Krohn

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedians as war criminals

body:
> > Ed's approach to this subject has all the appearance of a troll.
>
> I don't agree.

"To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or
flames; or, the post
itself."

definition: from jargon file

>From Edmund W's posting:
"I'm content to be considered a "criminal" by the ICC -- it has no
jurisdiction outside of countries which have signed its stupid treaty
-- and I never travel to those dumb places anyway. So there! Nyaah, nyaah.

I stay in the civilized world, where there is Rule By Law -- not
kangaroo courts making politicized decisions in favor of ruthless
dictatorships."

"stupid treaty", "dumb places", "stay in the civilized world", "kangaroo
courts" ...
Puh, I agree with the previous poster that this has all appearances of a
troll. But actually it is not
important if this a "troll" or "flame" post. I was just very very
disappointed to read such
statements from Ed for whom I had a lot of respect.

>  I agree in substance with Ed's views on the ICC,

for the record: I don't.

> *really* we shouldn't discuss politics on the list.  It's outside the
> scope of our mission, and very dangerous for WikiLove.

Ack.

best regards,
  Marco

--
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Bitte l?cheln! Fotogalerie online mit GMX ohne eigene Homepage!


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Usernames (was JoanB is DW)

body:
MeatballWiki obviously has no npov policy. I think also the [http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?IncompatibleTimesharingSystem IncompatibleTimesharingSystem] sets a good example for wikipedia. By that logic, I think that we should only have two levels of hierarchy: sysop and user/reader.  Jimbo would be a sysop, as would all of the developers.  Abolishing most hierarchy would help considerably with all of the ideals described in the meatballwiki articles you linked to. Has a bad sysop ever gotten through in the past?

Brion Vibber <vibber at lvl-sun703.usc.edu> wrote:
<summary>

some links to articles advocating lack of control on the MeatballWiki

</summary>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
well, I still believe anonymous contribution is critical to sucess.  I first edited wikipedia anonymously, and I don't like usernames and logging in in general.  Eventually, I wanted credit for my contrabutions, so I created a login. That's what I thought most people did. Anonymity is crucial in recruiting new users and it is a central aspect of the Internet.

Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:Do people still believe that anonymous contribution is critical
to success, or is it just an attitude left over from the startup
days?

Stan

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedians as war criminals

body:
Even Graffiti can be contravercial.  Should it be replaced by keyboards? Is it inefficient? Every issue, every fact, everything has two (or more) sides to it.  2+2=4. Well, what if a facist government says 2+2=5, or that it's variable, like in 1984. No fact in indesputable.  Sorry, but there's no way to escape from biased articles without active npoving.

"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:Most of what I put into the Wikipedia touches on controversial subjects, although I have been known to enter the odd indisputable fact now and then. Why, just yesterday I wrote about Graffiti (Palm) -- 'cuz it's on my ViewSonic PDA.

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from_name: John R. Owens

subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW

body:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Eric Demolli wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:15:46 +0200
> From: Eric Demolli <demolli at unice.fr>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW
>
> I suspect JoanB top be DW.
> He/She's adding his own prose to Brilliant prose.

And in a recent addition to [[Wikipedia talk:Image use policy]], seems to
have slipped up and posted while not logged in, revealing an IP of
64.228.30.14. Don't I remember lots of BW's contributions coming from
64.228.30.x IP addresses? Not much room for doubt now (if there ever was).

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
It's easy to find something worth dying for.  Do you have anything worth
living for?
				--Lorien


from_name: Eric Demolli

subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW

body:
I suspect JoanB top be DW.
He/She's adding his own prose to Brilliant prose.


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW

body:
The JoanB comments strike me a little as words by someone knowledgeable
trying to play newbie and keep from exploding all over the screen and
everybody nearby, but I'm going to be optimistic and take it at face
value for now.  GNU also has people that really want to be part of
the group but but have a hard time with the give-and-take that group
participation requires - sometimes they learn, sometimes they don't.

Stan

Eric Demolli wrote:

>It's DW no doubt.
>But at least he discuss.
>Mainly to find something wrong in my attitude....
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John R. Owens" <jowens.wiki at ghiapet.homeip.net>
>To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 11:58 PM
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW
>
>
>
>>On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Eric Demolli wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:15:46 +0200
>>>From: Eric Demolli <demolli at unice.fr>
>>>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW
>>>
>>>I suspect JoanB top be DW.
>>>He/She's adding his own prose to Brilliant prose.
>>>
>>And in a recent addition to [[Wikipedia talk:Image use policy]], seems to
>>have slipped up and posted while not logged in, revealing an IP of
>>64.228.30.14. Don't I remember lots of BW's contributions coming from
>>64.228.30.x IP addresses? Not much room for doubt now (if there ever was).
>>
>>--
>>John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
>>It's easy to find something worth dying for.  Do you have anything worth
>>living for?
>>--Lorien
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
On Wed, 2003-04-16 at 16:36, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > Do people still believe that anonymous contribution is critical
> > to success, or is it just an attitude left over from the startup
> > days?
>
> This has been discussed to death, here's my opinion on what we need to get
> done in the next months:
>
> 1) Allow sysops to check the IP of new* contributors
> 2) Allow sysops to block new* contributors by IP/name
> 3) Have IP blocks expire after a definable amount of time
> 4) Use an additional cookie-based "soft blocking" mechanism that should
> fool the technically challenged
> 5) In order to increase sysop accountability, log all sysop actions in the
> recent_changes (e.g. user:foo banned, page xyz protected)

In an arms race, no one wins, especially those with something to protect
when the other side has nothing to protect.

Additional gateway/protection mechanisms will only exacerbate the
problem.


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedians as war criminals

body:
I think he did.  He put the same wording on about three or four different pages. Zoe

Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Zoe wrote:
> From my Talk page: From Rick Wilson
> mailto:f.g.wilson at sbcglobal.net I don't know who you
> are, Zoe, but if you consider my calling out
> Wikipedia for complicity in the crimes of Bush, then
> yes, I am "trying to cause trouble."...

LOL

But...why did he choose your talk page and not one of
the war article Zoe ???

Anthere

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_______________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body: See Village pump.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] List of sites added

body:
Heya,

I've added a list of sites using the Wikipedia software to our page at

        http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net

Let me know if I missed one.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] DB dumps

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Thomas Corell wrote:
>
>>I din't find it on the donload page, so I ask here:
>>Are you dumping using the -e option of mysqldump?
> Yes (via --opt).

*sigh* after some hours with my favourite editor I thought so. I never
expected that editors have so much problmes with a linelenght of about 1
million chars :(
Just for some tests with my postgresql, can you send me a mysqldump (from
german wikipedia, if possible) without that option?

Postgresql is unable to handle multivalue inserts. And transforming is not
impossible, but could produces errors I don't want to search.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] New SpezialPage: qualifier?

body:
In the German wikipedia a list of the used qualifiers in the titles was
discussed, and most of the participants think it will be a interesting feature.

I know I have expressed it wrong, therefore an example:

Cell (biology) is a homonym (cell) with a qualifier (biology). To get a
proper list of those qualifiers and modify or eliminate wrong ones, a list
would be very helpful.

The discussion result was that such a unique list of those qualifiers from
titles (table cur) and bl_to (brokenlinks) would make sense.

Unfortunally I can give you only a proper PostgerSQL select statement (only
table cur) but possibly someone can transfer this easy to mySQL:

======== WARNING: THIS IS NOT A VALID STATEMENT FOR WIKIPEDIA ==========
SELECT DISTINCT substring(cur_title FROM '.+\\((.+)\\)') AS p FROM cur;
========================= I WARNED YOU =================================
-- "\\(" ==> (  (needed for quoting)
-- (.+)  ==> the () - construct is used to select the part substring will
return.

For the titles "foo", "foo (bar)", "foo2 (bar)" and "bar (foo)" the result
will be "bar" and "foo".

This should only show the as-is state of these qualifiers! There is no
intention for any automated process to enforce them, because no Wikipedian
should get an error like "Qualifier not allowed" or so. This page is only
for administrational and informational purposes!

Of course additional features, like showing the matched pages and others,
would be nice, but there the discussion must go on further, IMHO.

If there are more questions, ask, I will try to answer them.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] DB dumps

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Sure, here's a cur dump which ought to be in more traditional syntax*:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/tarballs/20030416_cur_table.sql.bz2
>
> * Using options: --add-drop-table --add-locks --all --quick
> instead of --opt.
>
> If you want an old dump too, just shout.

Thank you very much, one dump is enough for testing.
*Sending virtual easter prestent* :)

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: tarquin

subject: ICC (was: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedians as war criminals)

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>America fears that the ICC will do X, Y and Z.
>Supporters of the ICC call these things unlikely or impossible.
>
>(Or something like that.)
>
>What you said about the "appearance of a troll" has, itself, the appearance of a personal attack. But I don't mind. It reminds me about [[Sam Gamgee]]'s amusing poem from The Lord of the Rings. (Although I confess I am a bit worried about going outside my cave during daylight: I might turn into stone :-)
>
>
>
Ed, it was the way you said "kangaroo court" that seemed trollish.
Reading tonight's version of the ICC article, I can see that (to
summarize very broadly), US opponents feel that the ICC is a "damned if
we do, damned if we don't" sort of setup, since it would be the US doing
the actual dirty work of dragging out any dictators.
I don't necessarily agree (it still smacks of imperialism as an argument
- the shark saying "why should I take part in the minnows'
parliament?"), but it is clearly put, and the article is much improved. :-)


subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
One good thing is that he/she discuss, that's new.
May Jesus Full his/her heart with love etc....

Ericd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Shebs" <shebs at apple.com>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

> Eric Demolli wrote:
>
> >See Village pump.
> >
> Shoot, I was totally taken in and wrote a nice intro thing on its
> talk page; but the accumulating stuff on Village pump and Image use
> policy now looks like a direct continuation of the line of argument
> from Black Widow.
>
> You know folks, if people had to register with their real names,
> this whole identity guessing game would go away.  I've been messing
> with Wikipedia for only 10 weeks, so am still a newbie, but between
> the identity games with troublesome users and the cleanup of daily
> vandalism by anonymous users, it looks to me like it costs more time
> to deal with all that than is saved by getting the few anonymous
> contributions.
>
> Do people still believe that anonymous contribution is critical
> to success, or is it just an attitude left over from the startup
> days?
>
> Stan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW

body:
Except that "she" claims to be the author of the [[Oscar Micheaux]] article, which was written by the now-banned [[Black Widow]]. Zoe

Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:The JoanB comments strike me a little as words by someone knowledgeable
trying to play newbie and keep from exploding all over the screen and
everybody nearby, but I'm going to be optimistic and take it at face
value for now. GNU also has people that really want to be part of
the group but but have a hard time with the give-and-take that group
participation requires - sometimes they learn, sometimes they don't.

Stan

Eric Demolli wrote:

>It's DW no doubt.
>But at least he discuss.
>Mainly to find something wrong in my attitude....
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John R. Owens"
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 11:58 PM
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW
>
>
>
>>On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Eric Demolli wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:15:46 +0200
>>>From: Eric Demolli
>>>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW
>>>
>>>I suspect JoanB top be DW.
>>>He/She's adding his own prose to Brilliant prose.
>>>
>>And in a recent addition to [[Wikipedia talk:Image use policy]], seems to
>>have slipped up and posted while not logged in, revealing an IP of
>>64.228.30.14. Don't I remember lots of BW's contributions coming from
>>64.228.30.x IP addresses? Not much room for doubt now (if there ever was).
>>
>>--
>>John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
>>It's easy to find something worth dying for. Do you have anything worth
>>living for?
>>--Lorien
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Using RachelCorrie's name as a user name - sickening

body:
Not to mention that at least one of those pictures, and probably more than one, is a copyright violation.  It comes from the yahoo pictures site, is copyrighted by Reuters, and the page it comes from specifically says that it MAY NOT be reproduced.  Zoe

james duffy <jtdirl at hotmail.com> wrote:

OK. That is it. I've definitely come across the most revolting thing on
wikipedia. An anonymous user how now decided to use the name of a recent
dead person, Rachel Corrie. It is stomach churning to think that anyone
could be so tactless as to use a dead person's name and spread it all across
the wiki doing edits, etc. We didn't say say you cannot choose a recently
dead person's name because no-one could have imagined that anyone would be
so sick as to do it. Obviously there are sickos out there who stoop to this
repulsive level.

That's before you get into the contents, which is just YET ANOTHER rachel
corrie shrine, littered with every image that can be found. Some people on
wiki have been sailing very close to the POV wind in their promotion of
image upon image of Rachel, a lof of them totally irrelevant. Just the same
shots repeated in a different pose. Rachel looking to camera in the USA.
Rachel looking to camera in Gaza. Rachel looking to camera again in the US
(but this time with a frown! Obviously we NEED to show her smiling AND
frowning!!! The agendasizing of the main article on her with photographs is
bad enough. Creating a User:RachelCorrie is beyond disgusting. What next?
Supporters of the Iraq War creating a user name under the late British
soldier Ian Malone's name with pro-war images. Supporters of George Bush
creating a username to promote images for the President. Supporters of
Saddam creating a user name in his name to put pro-Saddam images on? This is
getting ridiculous and is making an ass out of wikipedia and showing
monumental disrespect to a recently deceased person. God forbid that any of
Rachel's family should do a google search and find wiki has someone claiming
to be their daughter or sister. What sort of sad sicko would be tactless and
crude enough to do such a thing?

JT

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subject: [Wikitech-l] DB dumps

body:
Thomas Corell wrote:

> Thank you very much, one dump is enough for testing.
> *Sending virtual easter prestent* :)

That's the virtual present for you Brion:
http::/corell.dyndns.org/Homonymzusaetze.html

First, it shows that Wikipedia works fine unter PostgreSQL (DB only) and
second it is an 'live' Example for the sugested SpecialPage: Qualifier

Happy hacking :)

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
> Do people still believe that anonymous contribution is critical
> to success, or is it just an attitude left over from the startup
> days?

This has been discussed to death, here's my opinion on what we need to get
done in the next months:

1) Allow sysops to check the IP of new* contributors
2) Allow sysops to block new* contributors by IP/name
3) Have IP blocks expire after a definable amount of time
4) Use an additional cookie-based "soft blocking" mechanism that should
fool the technically challenged
5) In order to increase sysop accountability, log all sysop actions in the
recent_changes (e.g. user:foo banned, page xyz protected)

*new meaning that the user has not made any edits older than n days

This allows us to deal with almost all kinds of pests fairly quickly:

1) Standard vandals get a 2 hour IP block, which hopefully will teach them
to behave. If they don't, whack them with another one. This is quick and
easy with little risk to other users of the same ISP.

2) Obnoxious critters like Black Widow can be re-blocked as they re-appear
under different nicknames and hopefully identified by their behavior and
their IP address.

3) The cookie-based blocking could work across usernames/IPs if the user
doesn't figure out how to disable it (cleaning cookies is easy, knowing
that you can't edit *because* of the cookie is harder to figure out).

These improvements would help us to avoid the ever looming threat of an
"email signup with confirmation URL" process that would significantly slow
down the flow of new contributors. Having Wikipedia wide open has always
been part of its attraction, allowing people coming from search engines to
quickly fix stuff and maybe get "hooked" by the concept. Erecting barriers
typically scares people away -- how many passwords do you have to deal
with already? Even Wikipedia's signup process is easy as pie, and should
stay that way.

But our current mechanisms are insufficient for dealing with persistent
problem cases, so we need to improve them. Anyone up to providing code
should join the wikitech-l mailing list and get going.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Too many pseudonyms

body:
Why bother?  They'll be gone in a day or two Zoe

Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:I'm having trouble keeping track of all the psedonyms. I keep getting the
Dietary Fibers confused with the Olgas. Can someone with a better memory
than me make a meta page listing the accepted wisdom on these matters?
Preferably written by Zoe or a like-minded individual, I doubt the benefit
of benefit of the doubt :)

-- Tim Starling.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW

body:
It's DW no doubt.
But at least he discuss.
Mainly to find something wrong in my attitude....

----- Original Message -----
From: "John R. Owens" <jowens.wiki at ghiapet.homeip.net>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW

> On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Eric Demolli wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:15:46 +0200
> > From: Eric Demolli <demolli at unice.fr>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Is JoanB DW
> >
> > I suspect JoanB top be DW.
> > He/She's adding his own prose to Brilliant prose.
>
> And in a recent addition to [[Wikipedia talk:Image use policy]], seems to
> have slipped up and posted while not logged in, revealing an IP of
> 64.228.30.14. Don't I remember lots of BW's contributions coming from
> 64.228.30.x IP addresses? Not much room for doubt now (if there ever was).
>
> --
> John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
> It's easy to find something worth dying for.  Do you have anything worth
> living for?
> --Lorien
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
tarquin wrote:

> Poor, Edmund W wrote:
>
>> America fears that the ICC will do X, Y and Z.
>> Supporters of the ICC call these things unlikely or impossible.
>>
>> (Or something like that.)
>>
>> What you said about the "appearance of a troll" has, itself, the
>> appearance of a personal attack. But I don't mind. It reminds me
>> about [[Sam Gamgee]]'s amusing poem from The Lord of the Rings.
>> (Although I confess I am a bit worried about going outside my cave
>> during daylight: I might turn into stone :-)
>>
> Ed, it was the way you said "kangaroo court" that seemed trollish.
> Reading tonight's version of the ICC article, I can see that (to
> summarize very broadly), US opponents feel that the ICC is a "damned
> if we do, damned if we don't" sort of setup, since it would be the US
> doing the actual dirty work of dragging out any dictators.
> I don't necessarily agree (it still smacks of imperialism as an
> argument - the shark saying "why should I take part in the minnows'
> parliament?"), but it is clearly put, and the article is much
> improved. :-)

Personal attack would be if I called a person a troll, but not a
specific action as has been the case.  I do have strong opinions on
these matters, but for the most part I am content not to push these
"interesting but dangerous" matters.  However, sometimes when an
otherwise respected Wikipedian  takes an outrageous position, it's hard
not to reply.  Rick Wilson's babblings didn't make enough sense to merit
any response at all.  It seems that whenever brings this stuff to the
attention of the list it starts a whole new uproar.

I'll try to find time to look more closely at the ICC article, but in
the middle of tax accounting work (the Canadian season runs to April 30)
I need to pay a little more attention to work.  To continue the analogy
started by Ed, looking back too seriously on this recent ICC debate
could turn some of us into pillars of salt.

Ec


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
Now that I have the test suite working and installation is quick,
I set up the software on a freshly-installed machine on my home
network, ran the suite, reinstalled using InnoDB tables instead of
MyISAM, ran again, installed MySQL 4.0.12, and ran again.

The semi-bad news: there didn't seem to be any difference in
performance with any of these changes. The variance in timing
among setups wasn't much more than the variance from one run to
the next. The actual numbers are below. Probably the most
important numbers are the "sec per fetch" and "sec per search"
at the end--those are the timings of regular page fetches and
searches done by background threads that run during the
conformance tests and best simulate actual use.

The semi-good news is that MySQL 4.0.12 instaled easily and
worked out of the box with no problems, and seems as reliable
as its now "production" status would indicate, and didn't have
any performance problems, so it seems there would be no
downside to using it if we decided to upgrade to take advantage
of its features.

MyISAM:

Test "Links" Succeeded   (120.817 secs)
Test "HTML" Succeeded   (321.443 secs)
Test "Editing" Succeeded   (229.574 secs)
Test "Parsing" Succeeded   (23.135 secs)
Test "Special" Succeeded   (124.010 secs)
Test "Search" Succeeded   (33.702 secs)
Test "Math" Succeeded   (49.452 secs)
Stopped background threads.
Fetched 213 pages in 784.356 sec (3.682 sec per fetch).
Performed 201 searches in 397.350 sec (1.865 sec per search).
Total elapsed time: 0 hr, 16 min, 41.367 sec.

InnoDB:

Test "Links" Succeeded   (113.099 secs)
Test "HTML" Succeeded   (247.384 secs)
Test "Editing" Succeeded   (175.459 secs)
Test "Parsing" Succeeded   (16.881 secs)
Test "Special" Succeeded   (159.286 secs)
Test "Search" Succeeded   (45.763 secs)
Test "Math" Succeeded   (60.805 secs)
Stopped background threads.
Fetched 194 pages in 721.915 sec (3.721 sec per fetch).
Performed 192 searches in 343.591 sec (1.771 sec per search).
Total elapsed time: 0 hr, 15 min, 20.568 sec.

MySQL 4.0.12:

Test "Links" Succeeded   (114.171 secs)
Test "HTML" Succeeded   (258.449 secs)
Test "Editing" Succeeded   (212.278 secs)
Test "Parsing" Succeeded   (21.764 secs)
Test "Special" Succeeded   (131.613 secs)
Test "Search" Succeeded   (31.383 secs)
Test "Math" Succeeded   (52.241 secs)
Stopped background threads.
Fetched 201 pages in 748.631 sec (3.725 sec per fetch).
Performed 200 searches in 350.369 sec (1.743 sec per search).
Total elapsed time: 0 hr, 15 min, 51.312 sec.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [WikiEN-l] Too many pseudonyms

body:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Zoe wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:52:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Too many pseudonyms
>
> Why bother?  They'll be gone in a day or two Zoe
>
> Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:I'm having trouble keeping track of all the psedonyms. I keep getting the
> Dietary Fibers confused with the Olgas. Can someone with a better memory
> than me make a meta page listing the accepted wisdom on these matters?
> Preferably written by Zoe or a like-minded individual, I doubt the benefit
> of benefit of the doubt :)
>
> -- Tim Starling.

Keep an eye on David Stewart, nothing conclusive, but the edit times
alternate well with BW/Olga/JoanB, and he seems to be contributing
entirely to intellectual property related articles so far.

By the way, could some developer ban Olga soon? I hate to think what a
jerk I must look like to anyone who doesn't get the Olga thing already.
But I feel it would be worse to leave any more of its disinformation
unreverted. And it'd certainly be wrong of me to protect the [[Stanley
Stairs]] page, of course.

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet.
He is behind me.  You are in front of me.  If you value your lives, be
somewhere else.
				--Delenn


from_name: james duffy

body:
OK. That is it. I've definitely come across the most revolting thing on
wikipedia. An anonymous user how now decided to use the name of a recent
dead person, Rachel Corrie. It is stomach churning to think that anyone
could be so tactless as to use a dead person's name and spread it all across
the wiki doing edits, etc. We didn't say say you cannot choose a recently
dead person's name because no-one could have imagined that anyone would be
so sick as to do it. Obviously there are sickos out there who stoop to this
repulsive level.

That's before you get into the contents, which is just YET ANOTHER rachel
corrie shrine, littered with every image that can be found. Some people on
wiki have been sailing very close to the POV wind in their promotion of
image upon image of Rachel, a lof of them totally irrelevant. Just the same
shots repeated in a different pose. Rachel looking to camera in the USA.
Rachel looking to camera in Gaza. Rachel looking to camera again in the US
(but this time with a frown! Obviously we NEED to show her smiling AND
frowning!!! The agendasizing of the main article on her with photographs is
bad enough. Creating a User:RachelCorrie is beyond disgusting. What next?
Supporters of the Iraq War creating a user name under the late British
soldier Ian Malone's name with pro-war images. Supporters of George Bush
creating a username to promote images for the President. Supporters of
Saddam creating a user name in his name to put pro-Saddam images on? This is
getting ridiculous and is making an ass out of wikipedia and showing
monumental disrespect to a recently deceased person. God forbid that any of
Rachel's family should do a google search and find wiki has someone claiming
to be their daughter or sister. What sort of sad sicko would be tactless and
crude enough to do such a thing?

JT

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

in_reply_to: <3E9D98AB.1010405@apple.com>; from shebs@apple.com on Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 10:53:47AM -0700

body:
Stan Shebs wrote:
> Do people still believe that anonymous contribution is critical
> to success, or is it just an attitude left over from the startup
> days?

I think it is still important, but it isn't the anonymity so much as
the low barriers to entry, which includes anonymity as one component.

This is important not only to make it easy for more people to help us,
but also as one of our fundamental safeguards against bias, i.e. if
anyone accuses us of bias, then the thing for them to do is "Edit this
page".

"Real names" is a hard thing to enforce -- how could it be
implemented?  I check everyone's id before giving out a password?  Not
feasible.  We could require everyone to have a "real sounding name",
but that's pretty obviously pointless.

However, I am very sensitive to the concern that particular abusers
cause a lot of good people to waste a lot of valuable time.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Short of requiring credit cards...

I chuckled when I read that.  I get accused with some regularity of
this all being a scam to make money (somehow!).  Now, this would be
the ultimate triumph -- I could require people to *pay me* to work on
wikipedia.  :-) Sweet.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

in_reply_to: <8jxbiUMCpVB@erik_moeller>; from erik_moeller@gmx.de on Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 10:36:00PM +0200

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> 1) Allow sysops to check the IP of new* contributors
> 2) Allow sysops to block new* contributors by IP/name
> 3) Have IP blocks expire after a definable amount of time
> 4) Use an additional cookie-based "soft blocking" mechanism that should
> fool the technically challenged
> 5) In order to increase sysop accountability, log all sysop actions
>in the  recent_changes (e.g. user:foo banned, page xyz protected)

I support all of these very strongly.

Cunc raises the potentially valid concern that we can't win in an
"arms race" against vandals.  And it's of course true that we can't
eliminate all vandalism and usher in an age of infinite WikiLove.

What we can do, though, is _reduce the cost_ to us while _increasing
the cost_ to them.  "Cost" here primarily means "time".

--Jimbo


in_reply_to: <BAY1-F123wmEEnmdq6Y0008506f@hotmail.com>; from jtdirl@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 04:13:29AM +0100

body:
The use of the name is tasteless, yes.  Can we recommend that this
person change the name?  Possibly they had not thought through the
tastelessness of it all.

I think that, without exception, all of the Rachel Corrie images need
to go away.  They have not been released under the GNU GPL, and "fair
use" for a single photograph like this is stretched.  We're trying to
generally take a fairly strict stance on "fair use" issues.

I suggest that this is a case where we need to tread lightly.  Rachel
Corrie is clearly a very emotional topic for a lot of people.
Wikipedia absolutely needs an _article_ about her, not a _shrine_.
But emotions are running high right now.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Too many pseudonyms

body:
Can someone give me the rundown on the latest cast of characters?

I'm afraid "Olga" has just slipped my mind!

--Jimbo


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Using RachelCorrie's name as a user name -
	sickening

body:
On 4/16/03 11:13 PM, "james duffy" <jtdirl at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> OK. That is it. I've definitely come across the most revolting thing on
> wikipedia. An anonymous user how now decided to use the name of a recent
> dead person, Rachel Corrie. It is stomach churning to think that anyone
> could be so tactless as to use a dead person's name and spread it all across
> the wiki doing edits, etc. We didn't say say you cannot choose a recently
> dead person's name because no-one could have imagined that anyone would be
> so sick as to do it. Obviously there are sickos out there who stoop to this
> repulsive level.

It's really not something to get that worked up about. Part of ahimsa is to
avoid feeling offended unless absolutely necessary.

We didn't say you cannot choose a recently dead person's name because we
don't care, not because no-one could have imagined that anyone would be so
sick as to do it. The person chose to do it as a tribute to Corrie, not to
revolt you, churn your stomach, and repulse you.

Yes, it's tactless.

But that's all.


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
> "Real names" is a hard thing to enforce -- how could it be
> implemented?  I check everyone's id before giving out a password?  Not
> feasible.  We could require everyone to have a "real sounding name",
> but that's pretty obviously pointless.

> --Jimbo

I have thought a bit about this. One way might be to (with their consent)
make a collect phone call to them at the number they provide and delivery of
mail with signature confirmation to the address they provide as well as
reply to an email to the address they provide.

This would be for a full account with all privileges. If there was some real
or perceived need for anonymity this could still be provided privately.

Fred


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:

> But our current mechanisms are insufficient for dealing with
> persistent
> problem cases, so we need to improve them. Anyone up to providing
> code
> should join the wikitech-l mailing list and get going.

I agree.
I think perhaps the enforcement efforts need to enlist the help of
people outside the W.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

> "Real names" is a hard thing to enforce -- how could it be
>implemented?  I check everyone's id before giving out a password?  Not
>feasible.  We could require everyone to have a "real sounding name",
>but that's pretty obviously pointless.
>
>>--Jimbo
>>
>
>I have thought a bit about this. One way might be to (with their consent)
>make a collect phone call to them at the number they provide and delivery of
>mail with signature confirmation to the address they provide as well as
>reply to an email to the address they provide.
>
>This would be for a full account with all privileges. If there was some real
>or perceived need for anonymity this could still be provided privately.
>
Collect calls!  That seems like an effective technique for keeping new
members away!

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
How would someone outside the Wiki help us catch trolls?
Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote: I agree.
I think perhaps the enforcement efforts need to enlist the help of
people outside the W.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

in_reply_to: <3E9ED319.3090507@telus.net>; from saintonge@telus.net on Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 09:15:21AM -0700

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Collect calls!  That seems like an effective technique for keeping new
> members away!

Agreed.  I don't think there's any effective away to require real
identities _and_ keep the barriers to entry low.

And I don't think our troll problems are all that bad.  Endless and
persistent, yes.  They will always be with us, in greater or lesser
degrees.  We can improve our tools to deal with the problem, but
trying to think of ways to eliminate it while still remaining
wikipedia...  I don't think it will happen.


subject: [WikiEN-l] anonymity (was JoanB is DW)

body:
That seems very unneccessary, not to mention expensive to the user.  With some collect services (probably most, because they don't tell you their rates) it costs upwards of four dollars for one collect call. I don't think we should reward people for giving up their anonymity, anyway.  Anonymity is a very central and precious concept on the Internet.  Your plan also has some flaws.  What if two people under the same phone number wanted to make an account? It would be much harder for the second one. This would also waste the time of both the person making an account and the person testing the authenticity of the phone number. Also, wouldn't it be dammaging from the FIRST troll (from a given person) that signs up under this system? This system would also destroy the autonomy of the current computer system, requiring a phone call for each of the new users, or otherwise a special arangement.  There are currently 9000 registered (not necesserilly active) usernames on wikipedia.  Are you saying that if they were created today, then each would require a phone call? That's ridiculous. I don't see why everyone (the US govt, major websites, wikipedians) seem to want to destroy anonymity. Soft security and blocking users and IP adresses is working well enough.  Sure, once in a while we have a troll, but wikipedia is still an excelent encyclopedia and seems about 99% accurate, quite good for something with no paid authors or paid fact checkers.  Often, with obscure topics, we come up in the first five on Google. There's no need for this radical, anti-anonymity measure.

Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
I have thought a bit about this. One way might be to (with their consent)
make a collect phone call to them at the number they provide and delivery of
mail with signature confirmation to the address they provide as well as
reply to an email to the address they provide.

This would be for a full account with all privileges. If there was some real
or perceived need for anonymity this could still be provided privately.

Fred

---------------------------------
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Fair use (was Using RachelCorrie's name as a user name - sickening)

body:
I think Wikipedia should consider the fair use doctrine null and void.  Under the DMCA, pretty much any distribution of copywrighted material is illegal. (I know I shouldn't be saying this on the list, but the RIAA is suing someone for distributing software in Yale that emulates Napster and they're trying to get 97.8 trillion dollars.)

Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:...We're trying to
generally take a fairly strict stance on "fair use" issues...
--Jimbo

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from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Censorship article

body:
Hello everyone,

Sorry to put that on the table again, but little fat
buddha has decided to censor the article on [[media
distraction]] under the reason the name given to the
article was incorrect...

(I don't know yet if he would propose it to be under
[[censorship in the United States]]
...but...somehow...I doubt it)

Since this new name was a collective proposition, I
guess I felt it needed to be raised to your attention
again. And...once again...I think not agreeing on the
title of an article is not a justification for pure
censorship.

Any idea here ??? Thanks

Anthere

__________________________________________________
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from_name: koyaanis qatsi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: JoanB is DW

body:
Fred writes:
> One way might be to (with their consent) make a
collect
> phone call to them at the number they provide and
> delivery of mail with signature confirmation to the
> address they provide as well as
> reply to an email to the address they provide.
>
> This would be for a full account with all
privileges.

Wow.  This is very nearly the last thing I'd want to
happen to wikipedia.  In fact, I'd rather see Jimbo
decide to close the site altogether.

kq

__________________________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Patch for LanguageDe.php (phase3 codebase)

body:
On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 11:35, Thomas Corell wrote:
> this patch corrects a type in LanguageDe.php.

Thanks! Patched in new (phase3) tree and installed on wiki.

> The typo exists in the phpwiki tree as well.

Hmm, is there any way we can mark that tree as deprecated?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wikipedia-l

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Do you want the complete Wikipedia on your
	handheld? Read here how to do this.

body:
Erik has provided converted TomeRaider files of the English, Dutch, and
German wikipedias, which I have put up for public download at:

  http://www.wikipedia.org/tarballs/tomeraider/

(The files are compressed with bzip2.)

I'm sure Erik would appreciate feedback from any PDA users who try them
out! If there's interest, we can probably work out semiregular updates.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 11:59, Erik Zachte wrote:
> I have converted the whole English Wikipedia to a TomeRaider file.
> The complete file is now available on my Pocket PC.
>
> You will need a storage card for this: the file is roughly 100 Mb,
> contains 145000+ entries (including redirects) and 200 Mb of
> (compressed) text.
> I chose to strip all meta info (discussions, user pages, etc).
>
> TomeRaider (shareware) is a blindingly fast text retrieval system for
> handhelds (Pocket PC, Palm*, and EPOC*) and MS Windows. Index lookup is
> sub second. Rendering very large articles or complex html tables may
> take a few seconds. Images are not supported. Hyperlinks are. Most html
> tags as well.
>
> I wrote a perl script to accomplish this. Unfortunately I do not have
> the web space or bandwidth to offer the file for download from my site.
>
> So either any user or the Wikipedia support team will have to redo the
> conversion. Conversion to a TomeRaider input file is completely
> automated. Conversion plus import in TomeRaider takes about 90 minutes
> on my 500 MHz PC.
>
> For screen shots and additional info about how to do this yourself:
> http://members.ams.chello.nl/epzachte/Wikipedia
>
> Erik Zachte
>
> * Not tested. I only have a PPC.
>
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 11:42, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> ...even these first limited results do give me some
> warm fuzzies about MySQL 4.0.12, which was something I wanted to
> look hard at because I wanted some of its features.

If you get a chance, you might try tweaking the search to use the new
boolean search mode, and see what performance impact that has compared
to what we're doing now. (IIRC you have to alter the fulltext index in
some way. MySQL docs should describe it.)

I'm going to be busy and/or out of town for a few days, so I won't have
a chance soon... :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:

> How would someone outside the Wiki help us catch trolls?

*cough*hackers*cough*

I did not say that. It is illegal, I would never condone it.

If it happened, though, tough.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Dreyer, Jason

subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

> Now that I have the test suite working and installation is quick,
> I set up the software on a freshly-installed machine on my home
> network, ran the suite, reinstalled using InnoDB tables instead of
> MyISAM, ran again, installed MySQL 4.0.12, and ran again.
>
> The semi-bad news: there didn't seem to be any difference in
> performance with any of these changes. The variance in timing
> among setups wasn't much more than the variance from one run to
> the next. The actual numbers are below. Probably the most
> important numbers are the "sec per fetch" and "sec per search"
> at the end--those are the timings of regular page fetches and
> searches done by background threads that run during the
> conformance tests and best simulate actual use.

The differences between MySQL versions and table types may not be the
determining factor in performance here. Inconsequential test results could
indicate a performance bottleneck on your test system. Disk throughput,
available RAM or other could be limiting all test configurations.

For Example:
-If maximum disk throughput on your test system is 18 Mbytes/sec, all
configurations may produce similar results at this level.
-Increase the disk throughput to 33 Mbytes/sec. At this level, configuration
#1 may outperform configuration #2 because it is capable of taking advantage
of the increased disk throughput. Configuration 2# may reach maximum
performance at 28 Mbytes/sec with little to no improvement at 33 Mbytes/sec.
The performance of configuration #1 could taper higher than 33 Mbytes/sec,
say 39 Mbytes/sec.

Or on the other hand, your message indicates that default MySQL
configurations were used. The default configuration options may not be
taking advantage of the resources available on your test system. The next
step could be adjusting these configurations to optimize the use of
available resources.

The fact that Wikipedia can be installed on various configurations and see
similar results, is good. Because, it provides a solid baseline for
performance measurement.

BTW, this is my first post to the list and I wanted to note and thank all of
you for the excellent work this project has produced. We are testing the
Wikipedia engine for use as a team knowledgebase. I know there are other
engines that may be more suitable for this, but it was hard to pass up the
combination of features included in Wikipedia.

Thank you.

-- Jason Dreyer


from_name: Rotem Dan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Larry's text on the "Knowledge" article

body:
Just stumbled upon the "Knowledge" article, and was
hit by shock and amazement:

"You come to a gas station and the gas station
attendant tells you: "I just heard from someone that
there was a big accident just around the big curve on
State Route 99. .."

"So let's get down to business, and ask: What is
knowledge? How can I define the word or the concept,
'knowledge'?"

"In other words, by the word "knowledge," we don't
mean simply whatever is generally regarded as true
these days by most experts"

In other words, a
western-americo-centric-article-written-solely-in-
the-point-of-view-an-almost-obscure-philosopher..
(If this sounds like trolling, then I apologize, I am
pretty angry right now.. :| )

With all the respect for wikipedia's founders, please
do not allow these tribute pages on wikipedia.
You-state-yourself-that-wikipedia-is-an-encyclopedia-,not
an-"Ideapedia"-or-tribute-shrine-for-your-beloved-favorite-
philosopher.
(Again apologizing for the trolling attitude)

Please consider leaving these type of texts as cites,
or book references (drived by the usual
wiki-consensus).

Rotem

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body:
--- Rotem Dan <rotem_dan at yahoo.com> wrote:

> "So let's get down to business, and ask: What is
> knowledge? How can I define the word or the concept,
> 'knowledge'?"

I define knowledge as useful information.

Knowing what some guy had for lunch last year, while technically
knowledge, does very little in the way of usefulness.

I define useful knowledge as information that allows critical
thinking and analysis, as well as information that allows the solving
of real world problems (supply chain management, solving crime,
managing market economies, etc)

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com


body:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Rotem Dan wrote:
> With all the respect for wikipedia's founders, please
> do not allow these tribute pages on wikipedia.

*ahem*

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Larry_Sanger/Larry's_Text

"... This material will require radical reworking and general wikification
to become appropriate for Wikipedia.  I'm now in the process of wikifying
this myself, but I certainly invite help with this. --Larry Sanger"

"I know a lot of this sucks.  It is written to get the general concepts
across to Ohio State undergrads.  Yes, some of what I've written might be
outright wrong, and most of it can be tightened up considerably.  If you
want to help me do that, don't bother replying to something I've written
here.  Just make the change you think is necessary, please."

"Finally, you might not like my style, and you might think that I don't
present the issues reliably enough, and otherwise feel that this
contribution is not exactly a boon to Wikipedia.  If that's the case, you
can feel free to replace what I've written with your own golden prose; I'd
just appreciate that you convey roughly the same information that I do
(i.e., you cover the same topics and say the same (true) things I have to
say about them).  If these textbook entries are placeholders before better
stuff comes along, that's perfectly fine by me."

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
> (Dreyer, Jason <Jason.Dreyer at deg.state.wi.us>):
>
> The differences between MySQL versions and table types may not be
> the determining factor in performance here.

Absolutely; lies, damned lies, and benchmarks, and all that. Disk
I/O may well be a major culprit. Memory/CPU usage probably isn't.
I'll run some more tests to check some of those things. I'll also run
some tests for things like having the database on a separate machine,
even PostgreSQL if I have the time (I'd appreciate it if the fellow
who said he had it working would send me a patch).

But I did want to get this initial set of numbers out there for
discussion, and even these first limited results do give me some
warm fuzzies about MySQL 4.0.12, which was something I wanted to
look hard at because I wanted some of its features.

I'd lso appreciate suggestions for other benchmarks (specific
MySQL settings, for example).

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
> (Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>):
> On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 11:35, Thomas Corell wrote:
> > this patch corrects a type in LanguageDe.php.
>
> Thanks! Patched in new (phase3) tree and installed on wiki.
>
> > The typo exists in the phpwiki tree as well.
>
> Hmm, is there any way we can mark that tree as deprecated?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

I suppose deleting all the files in it other than a README
might be a good hint. :-)

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
OK, ok you guys don't seem to get the point of my
post. What I meant was that ANY philosophical text, is
inappropriate for an ENCYCLOPEDIA, because it's
obviously cannot become consensus, and will always
remain merely a POV.

It's like saying that by creating a wiki trying to
"define" *what* is "art" , you will eventually (and
ultimately) get to the point of consensus. that
everyone will agree: "Yes, exactly, that is art".
Great, all our problems solved, the wiki said Art is
defined by X, Thought is Y and Knowledge is Z.

Some things just shouldn't be written into a wiki.

Rotem.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


from_name: John R. Owens

subject: [WikiEN-l] Too many pseudonyms

body:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Lee Pilich wrote:

> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:07:54 +0100
> From: Lee Pilich <pilich at btopenworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Too many pseudonyms
>
> At 05:46 17/04/2003 -0700, Jimbo wrote:
> >Can someone give me the rundown on the latest cast of characters?
> >
> >I'm afraid "Olga" has just slipped my mind!
>
> Excerpted from Michael Phillips' "A Million Monkeys: A History of the
> Wikipedia" (London, 2008):
>
> "Yea, verily there were three tribes, and annoying they were and impure in
> heart. And their numbers were as follows:
>
> First there was DW. And DW begat Black Widow, who in turn begat Olga
> Bityerkokoff, who begat JoanB.

And JoanB may or may not have begotten David Stewart, and yea verily begat
A. Hoar this very day.

> Somewhere else there was Lir, who begat Vera Cruz, who in turn begat Susan
> Mason, who begat Dietary Fiber.
>
> And there was Michael, who coughed up Weezer, who splintered into a million
> IP addresses."
>
> lp (camembert)
> WikiKarma: [[Heinrich Schenker]]

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
It's easy to find something worth dying for.  Do you have anything worth
living for?
				--Lorien


body:
Larry is special, being with Jimbo the co-founder of wikipedia. But feel
free to edit the article.

Fred

> From: Rotem Dan <rotem_dan at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Larry's text on the "Knowledge" article
>
> Just stumbled upon the "Knowledge" article, and was
> hit by shock and amazement:
>
> "You come to a gas station and the gas station
> attendant tells you: "I just heard from someone that
> there was a big accident just around the big curve on
> State Route 99. .."
>
> "So let's get down to business, and ask: What is
> knowledge? How can I define the word or the concept,
> 'knowledge'?"
>
> "In other words, by the word "knowledge," we don't
> mean simply whatever is generally regarded as true
> these days by most experts"
>
> In other words, a
> western-americo-centric-article-written-solely-in-
> the-point-of-view-an-almost-obscure-philosopher..
> (If this sounds like trolling, then I apologize, I am
> pretty angry right now.. :| )
>
> With all the respect for wikipedia's founders, please
> do not allow these tribute pages on wikipedia.
> You-state-yourself-that-wikipedia-is-an-encyclopedia-,not
> an-"Ideapedia"-or-tribute-shrine-for-your-beloved-favorite-
> philosopher.
> (Again apologizing for the trolling attitude)
>
> Please consider leaving these type of texts as cites,
> or book references (drived by the usual
> wiki-consensus).
>
> Rotem
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] spammism

body:
somehow, someone deleted all traces of the article Spammism, that I was planning on expanding.  I was wondering how they did this, and I think it may have been a cracker (aka what the media calls hackers).  before this message is recieved, I may have remade the article, though.

---------------------------------
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body:
--- Eric Demolli <demolli at unice.fr> wrote:
> NPOV as nothing to do with consensus.
NPOV causes consensus. An article that looks neutral
causes the feeling of confidence which leads to a
consnsus between the persons writing and viewing the
aritcle.

>And philosophy has is place in an
> encyclopedia.
>

I agree, So I suggest writing like this
..
In western philosophy
[...]
In eastern philosophy
[...]
..

See the famous works of the world-known western
philosophers:
Nietzsche, Friedrich ..
Sanger, Larry (available online) ..
Kant, Immanuel ..
..
And respected works of chinese philosophers
..
..

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


body:
> I think that, without exception, all of the Rachel Corrie images need
> to go away.  They have not been released under the GNU GPL, and "fair
> use" for a single photograph like this is stretched.  We're trying to
> generally take a fairly strict stance on "fair use" issues.

The pictures in the Rachel Corrie article tell a story. Who is Rachel
Corrie? What was her motivation? What happened on the day she was killed?
We should avoid redundancy, but we should not unnecessarily remove content
out of copyright fear. The images that are there complement the article
nicely. Fair use of photos, especially of persons in the public interest,
is completely in line with our current image use policy. We should
continue to take a stance to avoid the "fair use" argument when someone is
likely to complain about our use of the photo. This is not the case here.

My proposal for a compromise is this: The User:RachelCorrie page and the
additional photos it includes should be deleted. It serves no purpose, and
the account is not used. One personal photo of Corrie can also be removed
from the Corrie article itself - currently we have three (one of which
shows Corrie veiled and therefore contributes to the story the photos
tell, but the other two just show Corrie in the US, which makes one of
them redundant). Other than that, the photos should stay as fair use until
someone complains or explicitly denies permission. BTW, we do have
permission to use several of the photos on the Corrie article -- click the
individual images for current permission status.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] spammism

body:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> somehow, someone deleted all traces of the article Spammism, that I
> was planning on expanding.  I was wondering how they did this, and I
> think it may have been a cracker (aka what the media calls hackers).
> before this message is recieved, I may have remade the article,
> though.

According to archives, it was created at 20:35 by 68.115.30.162,
containing this text:

  A little-known religion embracing Hormel Foods' [[SPAM]] as its god. The
  actual creator of Spammism is unknown.

It was then deleted:

  20:54 Apr 17, 2003 Infrogmation deleted "Spammism" (Sillyness "A
  little-known religion embracing Hormel Foods' SPAM as its god. The
  actual creator of Spammism is unknown.")

See: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_log

 -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Larry's text (was: Larry's text on the ..)

body:
--- Eric Demolli <demolli at unice.fr> wrote:
> But the article can expose non-consensual opinions
> in a balanced way....
> The consensus should researched  about NPOV not
> about the subject of the
> article.

Exactly my point, but I argue further that writing the
complete or partial larry text INSIDE the article is
an obvious and very strong POV issue. Why give 400
lines (or in fact, any amount of space) for an obscure
philosopher but leave all others overlooked? this is
an obvious bias.

I will sum my personal opinion about larry's texts and
similar writings: I think they should be completely
removed from the encyclopedia and transferred,
possibly to an "Ideapedia" that specializes in
collaborative scientific and philosophical research.

Rotem

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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from_name: Lee Pilich

subject: [WikiEN-l] Too many pseudonyms

body:
At 05:46 17/04/2003 -0700, Jimbo wrote:
>Can someone give me the rundown on the latest cast of characters?
>
>I'm afraid "Olga" has just slipped my mind!

Excerpted from Michael Phillips' "A Million Monkeys: A History of the
Wikipedia" (London, 2008):

"Yea, verily there were three tribes, and annoying they were and impure in
heart. And their numbers were as follows:

First there was DW. And DW begat Black Widow, who in turn begat Olga
Bityerkokoff, who begat JoanB.

Somewhere else there was Lir, who begat Vera Cruz, who in turn begat Susan
Mason, who begat Dietary Fiber.

And there was Michael, who coughed up Weezer, who splintered into a million
IP addresses."

lp (camembert)
WikiKarma: [[Heinrich Schenker]]


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] JoanB is DW

body:
On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 12:36, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Ray Saintonge wrote:
> > Collect calls!  That seems like an effective technique for keeping new
> > members away!
>
> Agreed.  I don't think there's any effective away to require real
> identities _and_ keep the barriers to entry low.
>
> And I don't think our troll problems are all that bad.  Endless and
> persistent, yes.  They will always be with us, in greater or lesser
> degrees.  We can improve our tools to deal with the problem, but
> trying to think of ways to eliminate it while still remaining
> wikipedia...  I don't think it will happen.

Man. I'm really getting to think I'm going to have to repost the
relevant sections from "How to Destroy Wikipedia".


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
> (Thomas Corell <T.Corell at t-online.de>):
>
> I thought I mentioned that I got the data into a Postgresql DB,
> nothing more. To do this is easy, but that will not result in a
> database you will run a 'speed' test with. And I don't have the
> PHP Code running. I only use it to test queries.

Ah, I see. Then testing PG is further away. Once you do get a
reasonably efficient schema, fulltext search, etc., let me know
and I'll see how easy it is to abstract those functions in the
wiki software sufficiently to allow for a database comparison.
For now I'll keep testing MySQL tweaks.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Too many pseudonyms

body:
I'm having trouble keeping track of all the psedonyms. I keep getting the
Dietary Fibers confused with the Olgas. Can someone with a better memory
than me make a meta page listing the accepted wisdom on these matters?
Preferably written by Zoe or a like-minded individual, I doubt the benefit
of benefit of the doubt :)

-- Tim Starling.

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
> Also, I still think we need to (badly) upgrade the kernel - AFAIK, it is
> still running 2.4.6 (Brion hasn't said otherwise).  A newer kernel could
> really help us out here (w/ the ganked and reganked VM subsystem).

It's 2.4.7.

I've been reluctant to do a kernel upgrade for fear of making it
unbootable and subjecting Jason to another 3-hour journey. :) Had I
thought of it at the time, we should have gone ahead and done it
when he was there dealing with the recent crash.

If we just install the RedHat RPMs it should in theory be fairly painless,
but I'm not too familiar with how the red hat boot goodies are set up or
how to make it fall back to the previous kernel after the first reboot if
the new one doesn't work.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Well, if you consult Britannica what they do in philosophical articles is
set forth the history of philosophical thought on a subject. Here we try,
usually unsuccessully, to address the issue itself. However, in the absence
of a recognized canon of knowledge on a topic our attempts are unlikely to
satisfy.

Knowledge is doable though.

As to art, right at the beginning of work on the Oxford Dictionary, they hit
that rock. And more or less did it.

Fred

> From: Rotem Dan <rotem_dan at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:08:31 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Larry's text on the "Knowledge" article
>
> OK, ok you guys don't seem to get the point of my
> post. What I meant was that ANY philosophical text, is
> inappropriate for an ENCYCLOPEDIA, because it's
> obviously cannot become consensus, and will always
> remain merely a POV.
>
> It's like saying that by creating a wiki trying to
> "define" *what* is "art" , you will eventually (and
> ultimately) get to the point of consensus. that
> everyone will agree: "Yes, exactly, that is art".
> Great, all our problems solved, the wiki said Art is
> defined by X, Thought is Y and Knowledge is Z.
>
> Some things just shouldn't be written into a wiki.
>
> Rotem.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] spammism

body:
Probably the the content of the article was deleted then the empty article
was deleted, unless it did go though votes for deletion.

Fred

From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:34:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wiki Pedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] spammism

somehow, someone deleted all traces of the article Spammism, that I was
planning on expanding.  I was wondering how they did this, and I think it
may have been a cracker (aka what the media calls hackers).  before this
message is recieved, I may have remade the article, though.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum
<http://rd.yahoo.com/platinum/evt=8162/*http://platinum.yahoo.com/splash.htm
l>  - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop
<http://rd.yahoo.com/platinum/evt=8162/*http://platinum.yahoo.com/splash.htm
l> !

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
> I'm pretty sure if it breaks, you can still select the old kernel from a
> list (RH uses GRUB, I believe).  So, you still have to be there once to
> boot it to the old kernel, and then you can change the boot
> configuration.

Sure, but we don't have console without somebody driving to San Diego...

I recall that LILO had an option to set one image as the default for the
next boot, and then revert to the lilo.conf-specified one for subsequent
boots. GRUB probably has similar functionality, but it scares me and I've
never really tried to figure it out.

>  Still, are we really going to want to jump to 2.6 right away
> after it comes out?  2.4 had quite a bit of teething problems until
> fairly late in the game.

I don't see any real need to go 2.6, but a more recent 2.4 ought to be a
help (fixed VM probs, some local security loopholes).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Jason Richey

subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
Our servers use LILO.  I've never taken the time to learn about GRUB,
so I can't abide to have it in use on a server that I end up working
on.  If the server is, in fact, using GRUB, I would be surprised.

I am intrigued by this LILI option you mention.  That's new to me, and
it sounds pretty useful.

Jason

P.S.  I will eventually be making another trip to San Diego, and I
could always update the kernel while I'm there.

Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
> > I'm pretty sure if it breaks, you can still select the old kernel from a
> > list (RH uses GRUB, I believe).  So, you still have to be there once to
> > boot it to the old kernel, and then you can change the boot
> > configuration.
>
> Sure, but we don't have console without somebody driving to San Diego...
>
> I recall that LILO had an option to set one image as the default for the
> next boot, and then revert to the lilo.conf-specified one for subsequent
> boots. GRUB probably has similar functionality, but it scares me and I've
> never really tried to figure it out.
>
> >  Still, are we really going to want to jump to 2.6 right away
> > after it comes out?  2.4 had quite a bit of teething problems until
> > fairly late in the game.
>
> I don't see any real need to go 2.6, but a more recent 2.4 ought to be a
> help (fixed VM probs, some local security loopholes).
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Jason Richey wrote:
> Our servers use LILO.  I've never taken the time to learn about GRUB,
> so I can't abide to have it in use on a server that I end up working
> on.  If the server is, in fact, using GRUB, I would be surprised.

I don't know which is sitting on the boot sector, but both LILO and GRUB
are in fact available on the system, so it should be elementary to use one
or the other. In theory. :)

> I am intrigued by this LILI option you mention.  That's new to me, and
> it sounds pretty useful.

Lemme look it up....

       /sbin/lilo -R - set default command line for next reboot

       -R command line
              This  option  sets the default command for the boot
              loader the next time it executes. The  boot  loader
              will then erase this line: this is a once-only com
              mand. It is typically used in reboot scripts,  just
              before calling `shutdown -r'.

So, you could set up separate entries linux-knowngood and linux-scarynew,
set linux-knowngood as the default in lilo.conf, then:

  /sbin/lilo -R linux-scarynew
  /sbin/shutdown -r now

If the machine can't boot up under linux-scarynew, it can be remotely
rebooted, and the second boot should bring up linux-knowngood. (Or if
linux-scarynew crashes on its own later.) If it proves reliable, the
default can be changed later on.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
> (Thomas Corell <T.Corell at t-online.de>):
>
> Just a question for optimizing the right way. Are the queries known
> used mainly? This will help e.g. to setup helpful views. I think all
> queries concerning the displaying of a page, e.g. Or is your test
> suite a proper place to look for such queries?

I'm sorry, I don't understand that question at all. There are no
views at all used in the DB. All queries are composed by the software
referring directly to the database tables, and are about as optimal
as we could make them under the limits of MySQL, but it's quite
possible that we've missed a number of optimizations.

The test suite interacts with the wiki over the web, just a user
would, so it has no knowledge of any code internals.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

> Absolutely; lies, damned lies, and benchmarks, and all that.

Improving benchmarks which apply to Wikipedia db will hopefully improve the
situation out "in the wild". So yeah, the rest is just lies.

> Disk I/O may well be a major culprit. Memory/CPU usage probably
> isn't. I'll also run some tests for things like having the database
> on a separate machine
> ...
> I'd lso appreciate suggestions for other benchmarks (specific
> MySQL settings, for example).

Even if your system has plenty of memory, MySQL may not be configured to use
it. What do your settings in my.cnf look like? These settings will also
differ for MyISAM and InnoDB tables.

Improving disk throughput usually translates -> new hardware. You can try a
different file system or block size. XFS for Linux is improving. You may
want to compare it to ReiserFS. If you are going to test different block
sizes for the db, partition accordingly with the db on a separate partition
from the OS, Apache, PHP and MySQL binaries. This way, you can leave the
binary partitions at a smaller block size and adjust the db partition
without affecting the others. When installing your db on a second machine do
the same; isolate your binaries from your data.

Monitoring with mytop could be interesting:
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/mysql/mytop/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
> Improving disk throughput usually translates -> new hardware.
> You can try a different file system or block size. XFS for Linux
> is improving. You may want to compare it to ReiserFS. If you are
> going to test different block sizes for the db, partition
> accordingly with the db on a separate partition from the OS, Apache,
> PHP and MySQL binaries. This way, you can leave the binary
> partitions at a smaller block size and adjust the db partition
> without affecting the others. When installing your db on a second
> machine do the same; isolate your binaries from your data.

I'm sure I'll end up doing some of that. Right now, I'm using an
old Compaq with a small (8Gb) disk for the test installation, mainly
because it's trashable. But the software is relatively stable and
safe now, so I'll install it on my main development box with the nice
10,000 RPM SCSI and a gig of ram, and run the test suite from the
Compaq instead.

I'm a big fan of ReiserFS in general. That's what the MySQL folks
recommend as well, and I run that at Piclab (which is a small machine
but runs the testsuite faster than my Compaq). I'm not sure that block
sizes are that flexible for Resier, but I'll look into it. At any rate,
it would be good to find an optimal arrangement for the database
before we get the new server to install it on.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Larry's text on the "Knowledge" article

body:
Rotem Dam wrote:

>OK, ok you guys don't seem to get the point of my
>post. What I meant was that ANY philosophical text, is
>inappropriate for an ENCYCLOPEDIA, because it's
>obviously cannot become consensus, and will always
>remain merely a POV.

This dilemma was examined by the philosopher Woody Allen, who
proposed the following course catalog description for a class on
philosophy in which "Everyone from Plato to Camus is read and the
following topics are covered":

>Ethics : The categorical imperative, and six ways to make it work for you.
>Aesthetics : Is art the mirror of life, or what?
>Metaphysics : What happens to the soul after death? How does it manage?
>Epistemology : Is knowledge knowable? If not, how do we know this?
>The absurd : Why existence is often considered silly, particularly
>for men who wear brown-and-white shoes.

--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Nick Reinking

subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 05:12:37PM -0500, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > Improving disk throughput usually translates -> new hardware.
> > You can try a different file system or block size. XFS for Linux
> > is improving. You may want to compare it to ReiserFS. If you are
> > going to test different block sizes for the db, partition
> > accordingly with the db on a separate partition from the OS, Apache,
> > PHP and MySQL binaries. This way, you can leave the binary
> > partitions at a smaller block size and adjust the db partition
> > without affecting the others. When installing your db on a second
> > machine do the same; isolate your binaries from your data.
>
> I'm sure I'll end up doing some of that. Right now, I'm using an
> old Compaq with a small (8Gb) disk for the test installation, mainly
> because it's trashable. But the software is relatively stable and
> safe now, so I'll install it on my main development box with the nice
> 10,000 RPM SCSI and a gig of ram, and run the test suite from the
> Compaq instead.
>
> I'm a big fan of ReiserFS in general. That's what the MySQL folks
> recommend as well, and I run that at Piclab (which is a small machine
> but runs the testsuite faster than my Compaq). I'm not sure that block
> sizes are that flexible for Resier, but I'll look into it. At any rate,
> it would be good to find an optimal arrangement for the database
> before we get the new server to install it on.
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

AFAIK, ReiserFS block sizes are stuck at 4KB unless someone changed that
while I wasn't looking.

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 04:56:28PM -0500, Dreyer, Jason wrote:
> Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
>
> > Absolutely; lies, damned lies, and benchmarks, and all that.
>
> Improving benchmarks which apply to Wikipedia db will hopefully improve the
> situation out "in the wild". So yeah, the rest is just lies.
>
> > Disk I/O may well be a major culprit. Memory/CPU usage probably
> > isn't. I'll also run some tests for things like having the database
> > on a separate machine
> > ...
> > I'd lso appreciate suggestions for other benchmarks (specific
> > MySQL settings, for example).
>
> Even if your system has plenty of memory, MySQL may not be configured to use
> it. What do your settings in my.cnf look like? These settings will also
> differ for MyISAM and InnoDB tables.
>
> Improving disk throughput usually translates -> new hardware. You can try a
> different file system or block size. XFS for Linux is improving. You may
> want to compare it to ReiserFS. If you are going to test different block
> sizes for the db, partition accordingly with the db on a separate partition
> from the OS, Apache, PHP and MySQL binaries. This way, you can leave the
> binary partitions at a smaller block size and adjust the db partition
> without affecting the others. When installing your db on a second machine do
> the same; isolate your binaries from your data.

Also, I still think we need to (badly) upgrade the kernel - AFAIK, it is
still running 2.4.6 (Brion hasn't said otherwise).  A newer kernel could
really help us out here (w/ the ganked and reganked VM subsystem).

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
> (Nick Reinking <nick at twoevils.org>):
>
> Also, I still think we need to (badly) upgrade the kernel - AFAIK, it is
> still running 2.4.6 (Brion hasn't said otherwise).  A newer kernel could
> really help us out here (w/ the ganked and reganked VM subsystem).

Now seems like an awkward time for that, though, since it's my
impression that 2.5.X is going to become stable 2.6 Real Soon Now,
with new VMs, new threading, etc.  Reiser 4 is just around the
corner as well.

Here's a thought: if we do plan to install a brand new server for
the database, take advantage of that by doing something similar to
what we did for the present server.  Installing the latest stuff,
making lots of tweaks, trashing it a few times if needed, until we
get a setup that runs reliably and fast, test the hell out of it,
then make a backup, move the database, and bring it up, prepared to
switch back if all hell breaks loose.

I'm thinking a machine that's dedicated to running one program
(mysqld), attached to one client, can afford to be a little more
on the bleeding edge and still be stable than one that has to
serve hundreds of clients with dozens of apps like a typical ISP.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Stephen C. Carlson

body:
On 04/17/03 05:40 PM, Rotem Dan <rotem_dan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>I agree, So I suggest writing like this

Don't just suggest; be bold and edit the article!

Stephen

--
Stephen C. Carlson,
mailto:scarlson at mindspring.com
"Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words."  Shujing 2.35


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
> (Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>):
>
> If we just install the RedHat RPMs it should in theory be fairly painless,
> but I'm not too familiar with how the red hat boot goodies are set up or
> how to make it fall back to the previous kernel after the first reboot if
> the new one doesn't work.

I'm fairly familiar with how to do that (just having done it on
my test machine a few times), but it requires a boot floppy or CD
(and therefore the 3-hour trip for Jason).

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 05:50:35PM -0500, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > (Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>):
> >
> > If we just install the RedHat RPMs it should in theory be fairly painless,
> > but I'm not too familiar with how the red hat boot goodies are set up or
> > how to make it fall back to the previous kernel after the first reboot if
> > the new one doesn't work.
>
> I'm fairly familiar with how to do that (just having done it on
> my test machine a few times), but it requires a boot floppy or CD
> (and therefore the 3-hour trip for Jason).

I'm pretty sure if it breaks, you can still select the old kernel from a
list (RH uses GRUB, I believe).  So, you still have to be there once to
boot it to the old kernel, and then you can change the boot
configuration.  Still, are we really going to want to jump to 2.6 right away
after it comes out?  2.4 had quite a bit of teething problems until
fairly late in the game.

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


body:
I'm really behind in my email, sorry.

That Ideapedia sounds really interesting, I'll tell
you more about my opinion when I get around to reading
your original ideapedia post. I still think an
allpedia, allows anything short of shortening
articles, would be better, and it would incompass your
ideapedia.

--- Rotem Dan <rotem_dan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I will sum my personal opinion about larry's texts
> and
> similar writings: I think they should be completely
> removed from the encyclopedia and transferred,
> possibly to an "Ideapedia" that specializes in
> collaborative scientific and philosophical research.
>
> Rotem

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subject: [WikiEN-l] spammism

body:
Wasn't Infogramation supposed to report it to
[[Wikipedia:Votes for Deletion]] before deleting it? I
think it's a valid topic and deserves an article.
Sure, it doesn't have an article in Britannica, but so
what? It's still information. It's not POV.  I
acknologed in my recreating of the article that it
might be a joke.

--- Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> wrote:
> According to archives, it was created at 20:35 by
> 68.115.30.162,
> containing this text:
>
>   A little-known religion embracing Hormel Foods'
> [[SPAM]] as its god. The
>   actual creator of Spammism is unknown.
>
> It was then deleted:
>
>   20:54 Apr 17, 2003 Infrogmation deleted "Spammism"
> (Sillyness "A
>   little-known religion embracing Hormel Foods' SPAM
> as its god. The
>   actual creator of Spammism is unknown.")
>
> See:
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_log
>
>  -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: JoanB is DW

body:
Besides the fact that it would probably be a full-time job, what user wants to sit around waiting for a phone call before they can actually use a site, and how many would pay for the privelege? Zoe

koyaanis qatsi <obchodnakorze at yahoo.com> wrote:Fred writes:
> One way might be to (with their consent) make a
collect
> phone call to them at the number they provide and
> delivery of mail with signature confirmation to the
> address they provide as well as
> reply to an email to the address they provide.
>
> This would be for a full account with all
privileges.

Wow. This is very nearly the last thing I'd want to
happen to wikipedia. In fact, I'd rather see Jimbo
decide to close the site altogether.

kq

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body:
Huh?  I'm afraid I'm totally at a loss as to why this is even remotely western centric, nor why it would make you angry.  Please explain. Zoe

Rotem Dan <rotem_dan at yahoo.com> wrote:Just stumbled upon the "Knowledge" article, and was
hit by shock and amazement:

"You come to a gas station and the gas station
attendant tells you: "I just heard from someone that
there was a big accident just around the big curve on
State Route 99. .."

"So let's get down to business, and ask: What is
knowledge? How can I define the word or the concept,
'knowledge'?"

"In other words, by the word "knowledge," we don't
mean simply whatever is generally regarded as true
these days by most experts"

In other words, a
western-americo-centric-article-written-solely-in-
the-point-of-view-an-almost-obscure-philosopher..
(If this sounds like trolling, then I apologize, I am
pretty angry right now.. :| )

With all the respect for wikipedia's founders, please
do not allow these tribute pages on wikipedia.
You-state-yourself-that-wikipedia-is-an-encyclopedia-,not
an-"Ideapedia"-or-tribute-shrine-for-your-beloved-favorite-
philosopher.
(Again apologizing for the trolling attitude)

Please consider leaving these type of texts as cites,
or book references (drived by the usual
wiki-consensus).

Rotem

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subject: [WikiEN-l] spammism

body:
We don't need to put every nonsense article on Votes for Deletion.  And besides, it's spelled wrong. Zoe

Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:Wasn't Infogramation supposed to report it to
[[Wikipedia:Votes for Deletion]] before deleting it? I
think it's a valid topic and deserves an article.
Sure, it doesn't have an article in Britannica, but so
what? It's still information. It's not POV. I
acknologed in my recreating of the article that it
might be a joke.

--- Brion Vibber wrote:
> According to archives, it was created at 20:35 by
> 68.115.30.162,
> containing this text:
>
> A little-known religion embracing Hormel Foods'
> [[SPAM]] as its god. The
> actual creator of Spammism is unknown.
>
> It was then deleted:
>
> 20:54 Apr 17, 2003 Infrogmation deleted "Spammism"
> (Sillyness "A
> little-known religion embracing Hormel Foods' SPAM
> as its god. The
> actual creator of Spammism is unknown.")
>
> See:
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_log
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Database benchmarks

body:
Nick Reinking wrote:
> Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > Jason Dreyer wrote:
> > > You can try a different file system or block size. XFS for Linux
> > > is improving. You may want to compare it to ReiserFS. If you are
> > > going to test different block sizes for the db...
> >
> > I'm a big fan of ReiserFS in general. That's what the MySQL folks
> > recommend as well, and I run that at Piclab (which is a small machine
> > but runs the testsuite faster than my Compaq). I'm not sure that block
> > sizes are that flexible for Resier, but I'll look into it. At any rate,
> > it would be good to find an optimal arrangement for the database
> > before we get the new server to install it on.
> > http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> AFAIK, ReiserFS block sizes are stuck at 4KB unless someone
> changed that
> while I wasn't looking.

XFS for Linux 1.2 on x86 supports a maximum of 4K, equal to the page size of
the x86 kernel. XFS supports a minimum block size of 512 bytes, but I doubt
a smaller block size would improve db performance. So.. a block size
performance comparison for Wikipedia is probably off in the more distant
future, when larger block sizes are supported on x86 systems or the if db
moved to IA-64.


from_name: Thomas Corell

body:
Hello,

this patch corrects a type in LanguageDe.php.

The typo exists in the phpwiki tree as well.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------
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