subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re : secte, HELPPPPPP

body:
[Wikipedia-l] Re:Culte, cult, secte, sect
Brion Vibber brion at pobox.com
Sun Aug 31 02:50:32 UTC 2003

Anthere wrote:

>It usually refer to groups which practice some of the
>following, mental manipulation, power centralization
>in the hands of a guru or a small group of people,
>with a pyramidal organisation,
>
[[There is no Cabal]] ...

> with money exactions,
>
[[Wikipedia:Donations]] ?

>and a doctrine that can not be disputed.
>
[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view]] !

;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

LOL, yes !!!

You forgot

* rather new (he, less than 3 years)
* rather small number of members (eh, less than 10 000
certainly qualify)
* dangerous for their members (eh, wikipediholism)
* power in hands of one : Jimbo, or a small group : eh
the sysops

HELP !!!!!

WITHOUT NOTICING, I BECAME MEMBER OF A "SECTE" !!!!!!

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list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] Tacit acceptance of harassment

body:
James Duffy starts ranting about "the boy who cried
>wolf", and denies that serious amounts of Jew baitiing
>exists - in the midst of some of the most serious
>anti-Semitic slander Wikipedia has seen.
>
RK, I made it absolutely clear in my message that I was not attacking you,
much less ranting. Furthermore I have unambiguously called for a ban of EoT.
Please stop misrepresenting people.

The point of the message was to say that, having accused vast numbers of
people of jew-baiting, as in the story of 'the boy who called wolf', you
undermine your credibility to such a degree that when it /really happens/,
people simply think /here he goes again/ and don't take your claims
seriously.

Most of what you called 'jew baiting' is really 'you bating', attacks on
you, not your religion, though, and I do understand this, you interpreted it
as an attack on your faith and culture. If it was genuine jew baiting, it
would also have been targeted against others of the jewish faith or
community. It was targeted solely against you, often in response to your
over-reaction to criticism. I have emailed you privately to urge you to be
restrained in your accusations, making the point that it does not help your
cause when you make extreme allegations against much of wiki. Now I am
saying it publicly. Sometimes you are your own worst enemy, your wild
allegations so undermining your credibility that when it genuinely happens,
people just think, in the words of Ronald Reagan (I never thought I'd end up
quoting /him/!) 'there you go again'.

Let me be blunt. I respect your contributions. I respect your sincerity. I
know you are a genuine and honourable contributor to wiki. But you do more
to undermine your case than anyone else on wiki. Please, please, please stop
it.

I think EoT's behaviour to you was outrageous. Creating all these 'attack'
pages was a gross abuse of wiki. No-one, repeat no-one, should be allowed to
do that to /any/ user on wiki. So again, I call for his banning. I also
appeal to you to show restraint. Please show the respect for others that
your /rightly/ expect them to show to you. EoT has already been banned as I
think ''142''. Don't create sympathy for him by your over-reaction. And
please stop attacking those who are trying to help you to deal with OTT
attacks. You make defending you /extremely/ difficult when you read into
genuine advice personalised attacks. I made it clear before, and I make it
clear again, I am trying to be constructive and to say that EoT's behaviour
is a gross abuse of wiki. Please stop attacking the dwindling number of
people willing to defend you against EoT's acts. And BTW it is dwindling
/not/ because people are anti-jewish, or agree with EoT's behaviour, but
because you interpret the /slightest/ criticism of you, however honest and
well meaning, in a grossly unfair manner.

Please /this/ time heed my advice.

JT

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from_name: Toby Bartels

body:
Steve Vertigum wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>RK wrote:

>>>Huh? If that action on your part isn't Jew-baiting itself,
>>>then nothing is.

>>That seems to be the conclusion that a lot of people here have drawn.

>Not that I want to engraciate any Bartelsian nonsense
>by responding to it.. (Did you read my response to you
>Toby ,on http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ARK ?)

>But Certain People have more than once apologized for
>their haste in calling me an "anti-semite."  I in turn
>accept and embrace their change from baseless
>confusion and ethnic nonsense to reason and justice
>and will appreciate such an apology when it comes from
>you too Toby.

OK.
I apologise for using sarcasm that was too subtle for you to understand.
And I apologise for placing this sarcasm where you would read it
(that is, in response to something that RK wrote about you).
In my defence, I can only say that that's where the straight line was;
but I should have quoted only RK's final sentence (reinserted above),
rather than keeping the context that happened to talk about you.
So I'm sorry.

-- Toby


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Google Adwords

body:
Jens Frank wrote:

>It's a 50 Euro coupon and if we create an add using
>the keyword "encyclopedia" google estimates it to
>cost 12 Euros per day when paying only the minimal
>Cost-per-Click rate of 5 cent. This would mean it's
>a 4 days campaign.

Can we set it up so that the ad will run until the ?50 run out,
regardless of how long (or short!) that takes?
Since Wikimedia doesn't have a budget,
we don't want to get stuck with unexpected charges.

-- Toby


from_name: Steve Vertigum

subject: [WikiEN-l] Tacit acceptance of apologies

body:
--- Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:
I'm sorry.

Apology accepted.

-S-

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from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] Google Adwords

body:
Hi,

I've got an Google Adwords coupon free of charge with a
web server I ordered. I don't need this coupon for my
server so I thought about donating it to wikipedia.

It's a 50 Euro coupon and if we create an add using
the keyword "encyclopedia" google estimates it to
cost 12 Euros per day when paying only the minimal
Cost-per-Click rate of 5 cent. This would mean it's
a 4 days campaign.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

	JeLuF


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Michael again *sigh*

body:
As well as the latest persistant vandal, Henrik/Heine/Rikke.

RickK

Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:
I've just made a change to the software which allows sysops to ban logged-in
users. See my post in wikitech-l for the technical details. It is currently
in CVS. Once it's live, it should be a great help for dealing with Michael.

-- Tim Starling.

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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Sysop ability to ban logged in users;	Undelete bug
	fixed

body:
The Cunctator wrote:

>I assume that sysops can be banned through this interface as well.
>
Yes; one sysop having fun could ban all other existing user accounts and
finally him/herself. That would be a pretty silly thing to do, though.

> The
>hack sounds pretty ugly. Banning by username should be done by banning
>through the login (i.e. the cookies) not by checking IP.
>

Username banning bans the username only, or rather it _did_. (There was
no user interface for doing it, so sysops could not do so.)

Since it's trivial to log out and make a new account, Tim's patch also
adds a check for the IP address when the banned user next tries to edit
(and would thus discover they were banned) and add the IP address to the
ban list as well. Thus a logout/login-with-new-name would be banned too.

So all one has to do is log out _and_ change IP addresses. (A few
seconds, click a couple buttons for many people with dynamic IPs.)
Create a new account name under the new IP, and go wild.

One might gain a slight additional protection by setting a "you're
banned" note in the session data or a separate cookie instead of (or in
addition to) banning the IP. The bannee could clear their cookies or
restart their brower to clear it.

>Have these changes been checked in?
>

In the development branch.

>This is not something that should go live without discussion on the main
>mailing list.
>

It's been discussed before, many times. That's why Tim wrote some up,
because it was discussed and many people were in favor. Of course it'll
be discussed some more, and anyway this certainly isn't appropriate
without also having automatic expiration of blocks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikipedia-l

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] RE: [Wikitech-l] Sysop ability to ban logged in
	users; Undelete bug fixed

body:
I was thinking of a way to test cunc's question -- by
making a new username and banning it from my login,
but seeing that the ban is apparently of the ip - i
would be banning me, wouldnt i?

Im glad to see this put in -- Heine was a humungus big
pain in the ass last night, (major props out to
Hephaestos for trailing and keeping a sense of humour
about it) --

Still maybe cung is right --in case this isnt already
on the plate -- A routinely upadted shortlist of sysop
ips for a check against a "ban username" function --
might be appropriate.  With each login, the each user
ip is updated. Only rarely might a conflict arise due
to a same-ip range for dynamic ip sysops and potential
problem user.

-S-

--- The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
> > From: Tim Starling
> > I did a quick hack which allows sysops to ban
> logged-in users. This
> was
> > discussed on wikien-l long, long ago, and was
> widely agreed to be a
> good
> > idea (well, not that widely, but Jimbo was
> particularly keen).
> Basically
> > you
> > just type the username into the ban IP box. I
> changed a few messages
> to
> > indicate that you could do it.
> >
>
> I assume that sysops can be banned through this
> interface as well. The
> hack sounds pretty ugly. Banning by username should
> be done by banning
> through the login (i.e. the cookies) not by checking
> IP.
>
> Have these changes been checked in?
>
> This is not something that should go live without
> discussion on the main
> mailing list.
>
> -tc
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: My Wikipedia Rant

body:
Next time include a link Tarq --
http://forums.delphiforums.com/bully/messages/?msg=25069.1

After reading a little, I dont think hes a total
moron, just a typical product of his isolated,
depressed, and buttoned-down HUA, TYOB culture of the
50s/70s/90s conservative.

-S-
ps:
HUA means "head up ass"
TYOB mean "toke your own butthole"

--- tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:
>
> jdepape at cfl.rr.com wrote:
>
> >=======================Forwarded
> Message=======================
> >
> >Forum:    the Politics:  The Bully Pulpit Forum
> >Subject:  My Wikipedia Rant
> >From:     John (CHICAGOJOHN)
> >To:       Fish (FFFFFFFFFISH)
> >DateTime: 8/25/2003 12:56:22 PM
> >
> >ROFL!!!
> >I just went there.  That was awesome!
> >I'm tempted to go there and adjust some of my
> favorite definitions.
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> >
> What an complete moron.
> Let's drown him in virus spam.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: My Wikipedia Rant

body:
jdepape at cfl.rr.com wrote:

>This message from Politics:  The Bully Pulpit on DelphiForums.com was forwarded to
>you by 2MINUTESHATE.
>
>You can view it in the context of the entire discussion by going to:
>http://forums.delphiforums.com/bully/messages/?msg=25069.115
>

"Redirection limit for this URL exceeded. Unable to load the requested
page. This may be caused by cookies that are blocked."

>To view 2MINUTESHATE's Profile, visit
>http://www.delphiforums.com/dir-app/showprofile.asp?uname=2MINUTESHATE
>

"Execute Access Denied
This Virtual Directory does not allow objects to be executed."

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: My Wikipedia Rant

body:
Gutza as usual is correct, and I apologise for even
commenting at all. All in good fun --if not good
taste.
I read about half of that discussion list, and it
seems like the typical conversation about wiki -- is
it a valid source? How can it be trusted. etc.  A very
enlightening thread actually, looking at uninitiated
newbies juggling the same paradoxical concept that we
all still deal with -- namely   'despite the fact that
it shouldnt work at all it does.' [paraphrasing Jimbo]

-S-

--- Gutza <gutza at moongate.ro> wrote:
> I think banning him would probably prove the point
> that Wikipedia isn't
> completely unregulated. But then again, it would
> probably also prove
> that we're fascists to such a person. Not banning
> him would prove him
> that Wikipedia is unreliable. Talking about him
> proves that we're a
> bunch of losers who have nothing better to do. So I
> think ignoring the
> guy would probably be the best thing to do, along
> with keeping an eye on
> his IP and reverting his changes, should some more
> occur in the future.
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: My Wikipedia Rant

body:
No it was just a nice discussion group started from
the naysayers point of view -- this John guy threw it
to the class  with a little Red Herring bait on it
(conservative jargon) on it -- and they all ate it up.

One guy actuall made a "vandal" change to Mars
(planet) article -- just to prove that anyone could
make wiki invalid as a source. (Mars is the third
planet from the Sun named after the Klingon god of
war" ) Of course they failed to mention that it was
modified to better reflect the truth ;)

On toke oo from the great grand enlightenment doobie
on its oo trip around the world,
-S-

--- tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gutza wrote:
>
> > I think banning him would probably prove the point
> that Wikipedia
> > isn't completely unregulated. But then again, it
> would probably also
> > prove that we're fascists to such a person. Not
> banning him would
> > prove him that Wikipedia is unreliable. Talking
> about him proves that
> > we're a bunch of losers who have nothing better to
> do. So I think
> > ignoring the guy would probably be the best thing
> to do, along with
> > keeping an eye on his IP and reverting his
> changes, should some more
> > occur in the future.
> >
> I want to talk to this guy.
> His opinions of wikipedia aside -- does he really
> derive amusement from
> causing damage to something other people have worked
> hard on?
> I thought humans grew out of the "kicking
> sandcastles" phase in late
> adolescence.
> Anyway, this is something I'll maybe raise on
> MeatBall.
> :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: The Cunctator

subject:
[Wikipedia-l]
	RE: [Wikitech-l] Sysop ability to ban logged in users;
	Undelete bug fixed

body:
> From: Tim Starling
> I did a quick hack which allows sysops to ban logged-in users. This
was
> discussed on wikien-l long, long ago, and was widely agreed to be a
good
> idea (well, not that widely, but Jimbo was particularly keen).
Basically
> you
> just type the username into the ban IP box. I changed a few messages
to
> indicate that you could do it.
>

I assume that sysops can be banned through this interface as well. The
hack sounds pretty ugly. Banning by username should be done by banning
through the login (i.e. the cookies) not by checking IP.

Have these changes been checked in?

This is not something that should go live without discussion on the main
mailing list.

-tc


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Sysop ability to ban logged in users;
	Undelete bug fixed


list: textbook-l

from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Textbook-l] Re:Wikibooks

body:
Anthere wrote:
>If the solution is this one, it should be discussed
>whether the current english textbook should be
>moved from http://textbook.wikipedia.org/ to
>http://en.textbook.wikipedia.org/ .

It would either be http://en.wikibooks.org or http://wikibooks.org/en/.

http://wikibooks.org would be a multilanguage portal.

However, I'm warming to the idea of internally segregating the projects as I
explained before, instead of external segregation (subdomain and different
MediaWiki installations; just like on Wikipedia). All I really care about is
having a clean database, so if language category tags and a user preference
to set interface language can do most of what we want, then, IMO, let's plan
to do that. But doing that requires brand new changes to MediaWiki, while
doing things the old way only requires adding the wiki book functionality
(not an absolute requirement before internationalization, but IMO /very/
important).

Hey, I just got a neat idea; language category tags can be used to set a users
interface language. So if they visit a module that has a French language tag,
then their interface will magically become French. Then when they back out to
an English module, their interface automatically becomes English again! User
preferences would then be used to override this if the user wants.

This would also be really neat to have on meta.

Oh and this is about internationalization, so it is very appropriate to have
this thread on Intlwiki-l. The mailing lists are going to eventually be moved
to @wikimedia.org in the near future anyway since we are no longer just about
Wikipedia.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Michael again *sigh*

body:
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 01:08:17 +1000
From: "Tim Starling" <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Michael again *sigh*
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Message-ID: <bit2vv$l1u$1 at sea.gmane.org>

I've just made a change to the software which allows
sysops to ban
logged-in
users. See my post in wikitech-l for the technical
details. It is
currently
in CVS. Once it's live, it should be a great help for
dealing with
Michael.

-- Tim Starling.

Apart from the specific issue of Michael, what are the
rules to follow in terms of banning of a loggued in
user on the en wiki ?
Is it still supposed to be "sanctified" (I can't find
the exact proper word), or may sysop ban loggued-in
user just as they can ban ips ?

I suppose it was discussed somewhere, but I dunno
exactly

Will this be working on any wikipedia as well ?

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subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Penis]]

body:
I did the delete.  I thought the original page's history stayed with the original name.  Sorry.  I don't know how to do an undelete or I'd do it.  But then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the history?  And it was Michael who did the move to begin with.  He's decided to visit us again today.

RickK

tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:
I don't have a good enough connection to clean this up - in particular
the deletion log is taking forever to come up.
Someone moved [[Penis]] to [[/User:Scarequotes]]

Unfortunately, this was fixed by
1. deleting /[[/User:Scarequotes]]
2. pasting the text of [[Penis]] back in

So we have ow lost all of that page's edit history.
Please could someone fix?
( we need to undelete ///[[/User:Scarequotes]], and move it back)/
/

///
//
//

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
Rick giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 31 14:02:43 UTC 2003

I did the delete.  I thought the original page's
history stayed with the original name.  Sorry.  I
don't know how to do an undelete or I'd do it.  But
then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the
history?  And it was Michael who did the move to begin
with.  He's decided to visit us again today.

RickK

Perhaps it would be better than anyone practicing
deletion, knew how to practice undeletion as well :-)
check here and good luck

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_undeletion

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from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Penis]]

body:
Rick wrote:

> I did the delete.  I thought the original page's history stayed with
> the original name.  Sorry.  I don't know how to do an undelete or I'd
> do it.  But then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the history?
> And it was Michael who did the move to begin with.  He's decided to
> visit us again today.

This is the procedure I normally use:
1. Delete the old page name.  It's just a redirect now, and has no history.
2. Move the new page name back to the old page name.

Another possibility:
1. Move the new page name back to the old page name.
2. Delete the new page name (now just a redirect with no history).

With the first approach, the page now looks like nothing ever happened
(unless you look at the deletion log).  With the second approach, the
page looks like it was turned into a redirect and then reverted (the two
histories get merged).  Which is better might depend on your preference
-- one shows evidence of vandalism, but is possibly confusing, while the
other is less confusing but erases evidence of vandalism.

-Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
I'm going to try very hard not to take that as an attack, but it's very hard to do.

RickK

Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Rick giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 31 14:02:43 UTC 2003

I did the delete. I thought the original page's
history stayed with the original name. Sorry. I
don't know how to do an undelete or I'd do it. But
then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the
history? And it was Michael who did the move to begin
with. He's decided to visit us again today.

RickK

Perhaps it would be better than anyone practicing
deletion, knew how to practice undeletion as well :-)
check here and good luck

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_undeletion

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
Hack a bookmark?  Use Mozilla?

In other words, unless you're some wizard, it's impossible to undelete.  Therefore the majority of sysops are unable to undelete, and therefore should not be allowed to delete.

Is that what you're saying?

RickK

Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Rick giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 31 14:02:43 UTC 2003

I did the delete. I thought the original page's
history stayed with the original name. Sorry. I
don't know how to do an undelete or I'd do it. But
then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the
history? And it was Michael who did the move to begin
with. He's decided to visit us again today.

RickK

Perhaps it would be better than anyone practicing
deletion, knew how to practice undeletion as well :-)
check here and good luck

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_undeletion

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
Rick wrote:

> I'm going to try very hard not to take that as an attack, but it's
> very hard to do.

When people give you links to pages that explain how to do something you
just asked how to do (in a very friendly message, no less), the
customary response is "thank you".

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

>  */Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Rick giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
>     Sun Aug 31 14:02:43 UTC 2003
>
>
>     I did the delete. I thought the original page's
>     history stayed with the original name. Sorry. I
>     don't know how to do an undelete or I'd do it. But
>     then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the
>     history? And it was Michael who did the move to begin
>     with. He's decided to visit us again today.
>
>     RickK
>
>     Perhaps it would be better than anyone practicing
>     deletion, knew how to practice undeletion as well :-)
>     check here and good luck
>
>     http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_undeletion
>
>
>
>     __________________________________
>     Do you Yahoo!?
>     Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>     http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>     _______________________________________________
>     WikiEN-l mailing list
>     WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>     http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
When people imply that I'm incompetent and shouldn't be allowed to perform certain tasks that are part of the territory of being a sysop, I don't think a "thank you" is in order.

Nor will I thank YOU for this uncalled-for attempt at teaching me etiquette.

RickK

Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
Rick wrote:

> I'm going to try very hard not to take that as an attack, but it's
> very hard to do.

When people give you links to pages that explain how to do something you
just asked how to do (in a very friendly message, no less), the
customary response is "thank you".

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

> */Anthere /* wrote:
>
> Rick giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
> Sun Aug 31 14:02:43 UTC 2003
>
>
> I did the delete. I thought the original page's
> history stayed with the original name. Sorry. I
> don't know how to do an undelete or I'd do it. But
> then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the
> history? And it was Michael who did the move to begin
> with. He's decided to visit us again today.
>
> RickK
>
> Perhaps it would be better than anyone practicing
> deletion, knew how to practice undeletion as well :-)
> check here and good luck
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_undeletion
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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>
> - Now only $29.95 per month!
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
Rick wrote:

> When people imply that I'm incompetent and shouldn't be allowed to
> perform certain tasks that are part of the territory of being a sysop,
> I don't think a "thank you" is in order.

Please allow me to recommend some reading material to everyone on this
list and off:

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith

>  Nor will I thank YOU for this uncalled-for attempt at teaching me
> etiquette.

You're welcome.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
RickK wrote in part:

>Hack a bookmark?  Use Mozilla?
>In other words, unless you're some wizard, it's impossible to undelete.

Type this into your browser (nothing will happen):
<http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special%3AUndelete&target=>
Now bookmark it.

When you want to undelete, open that bookmark (nothing will happen).
Then insert the title after the equals sign (nothing will happen).
Then hit "Restore!" if you wish -- and something will happen!

It should work more smoothly than this, without typing URLs.
But neither anth?re nor I can help that. '_`

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions

body:
Thank you, Evercat.  THIS was useful.  And not mean-spirited.

RickK

Allan Crossman <a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
On 31 Aug 2003 at 21:16, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

I've fixed the Penis page by undeletion and moving...

To undelete in Explorer, first bookmark this address:

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Undelete&target=PAGENAME

Now, whenever you need to undelete, just go to that page (nothing bad happens
if you actually load it), change "PAGENAME" in the URL to the name of the page,
e.g. User:Scarequotes, and there you go.

Don't try using the Deletion log to get there, it takes forever to load,
usually.

Evercat
--
Allan Crossman - http://dogma.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
PGP keys - 0x06C4BCCA (new) || 0xCEC9FAE1 (compatible)

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Michael again *sigh*

body:
Anthere wrote:

>Tim Starling wrote:

>I've just made a change to the software which allows
>sysops to ban logged-in
>users. See my post in wikitech-l for the technical
>details. It is currently
>in CVS. Once it's live, it should be a great help for
>dealing with Michael.

>Apart from the specific issue of Michael, what are the
>rules to follow in terms of banning of a loggued in
>user on the en wiki ?
>Is it still supposed to be "sanctified" (I can't find
>the exact proper word), or may sysop ban loggued-in
>user just as they can ban ips ?

AFAICT, it's so far authorised only for Michael.
But it will probably be expanded as soon as Jimbo pronounces something.

>I suppose it was discussed somewhere, but I dunno
>exactly

I would advise that it be used just as for IPs,
which means that new usernames doing only vandalism can be blocked.
But established user names can't be blocked for new errors,
just as IPs that have done more than vandalism can't be.

>Will this be working on any wikipedia as well ?

I don't know.  Would you want it on [[fr:]]?

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:13:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis
To: Discussion list for English-language Wikipedia
	<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Message-ID:
<20030831211340.89274.qmail at web80604.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I'm going to try very hard not to take that as an
>attack, but it's very hard to do.

Hu ? Sorry you didnot understand me. I must confess I
can't understand either what you wrote below :-(((

>In other words, unless you're some wizard, it's
>impossible to undelete.

What do you mean it is impossible to undelete ?

I am a wizard myself quite often (though from time to
time, I just can't succeed to have the magic work,
hence the "good luck").

Anything a sysop can do, a sysop can undo.

If you block an ip, another sysop can unblock it
If you protect a page, another sysop can unprotect it
If you delete a page, another sysop can undelete it
Er...an exception, if you delete an image, then that
is lost forever. This is bad.

A couple of people are HIGH wizards, such as Brion.

But we are just regular wizard

So, if you make a mistake and delete a page, you have
the ability to restore it. You may go to the special
page, list the deleted pages and find it (I still do
that sometimes on the fr wiki).

Or you may use the magic undelete link that is listed
in the page I provided you. You use the link, you
replace the end of it by "penis", you enter

And sometimes, it works :-)

>Hack a bookmark?  Use Mozilla?

I am no computer wizard
I know no such things

>Therefore the majority of sysops are unable to
>undelete, and therefore
>should not be allowed to delete.
>Is that what you're saying?

No. When were you made sysop ?
All sysops are able to undelete
Perhaps a sysop should be fully aware of his powers
before using them.
Perhaps some stuff needs to be better explained to new
sysops.

>RickK

Sorry you misunderstood. Did you try to undelete
yourself ? Why not creating a junk article and then
deleting it, and restoring it ?

Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Rick giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 31 14:02:43 UTC 2003

I did the delete. I thought the original page's
history stayed with the original name. Sorry. I
don't know how to do an undelete or I'd do it. But
then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the
history? And it was Michael who did the move to begin
with. He's decided to visit us again today.

RickK

Perhaps it would be better than anyone practicing
deletion, knew how to practice undeletion as well :-)
check here and good luck

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_undeletion

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from_name: koyaanis qatsi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
RickK writes:
>When people imply that I'm incompetent and shouldn't
>be allowed to perform certain tasks that are part of
>the territory of being a sysop, I don't think a
>"thank you" is in order.
>
>Nor will I thank YOU for this uncalled-for attempt at
>teaching me etiquette.

I don't think she implied that at all, though you may
well have inferred it.  At any rate, regardless of
motive, is it or is not useful to be able to undelete
something once one discovers--as you have--that one
should not have deleted it?  Or is it more useful to
become defensive and refuse to listen?

No thanks necessary,

kq

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subject: [WikiEN-l] A New Wikipedia

body:
I propose a new wiki -- WikiJobs.org
"for finding work that pays you actual money"

-S-
(I admit I added this (in part ;) for its levity-value
-- lighten up Rick)

__________________________________
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from_name: Al Shaw

subject: [WikiEN-l] "List of Heterosexuals"

body:
Cast your vote for the deletion of the page
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heterosexuals at
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_heterosexuals/deletion .
The voting ends in a week.

[[User:Lypheklub|Lypheklub]]


subject: [Textbook-l] Re: [Intlwiki-l] original sources on Wikipedia

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>Targuin wrote:
>
>
>>What does it take for things to HAPPEN around
>>here? I've not seen any decent objections, and
>>we all seem to agree on the fundamentals.
>>
>>
>
>OK, I'll come out against having a separate Wikisource project since that is
>part of the whole reason of having Wikibooks.
>
I thought the purpose of Wikibooks was to create original, freely
licensed (FDL) textbooks.

If annotated public domain works are within this mission, then great,
start putting in them books! But it's a bit of a surprise to me, and
probably to many others. Perhaps we need a clearer WikiMedia Project Map
of some sort so the left hand knows what the right is doing. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions

body:
I've added a more convenient link into the undeletion system, which will
show in bold at the top of the page when viewing a page which has been
deleted (if you're a sysop).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: blocking user name

body:
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:31:48 -0700
From: Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Michael again *sigh*
To: Discussion list for English-language Wikipedia
	<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Message-ID:
<20030831213148.GF2876 at math-lw-n01.ucr.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>Will this be working on any wikipedia as well ?

I don't know.  Would you want it on [[fr:]]?

-- Toby

Me ? No :-)))

Or Utilisateur:Papotages would have been banned before
I was back from my holidays :-)

I think several french would be very happy to have
that feature. But there was never any serious
discussion since we considered a "fact" we could not.
Likely, f the feature is now possible, it will be
transfered.

Till now, we succeeded not to have any user name ever
banned (except perhaps Mulot, but that was in phase I,
I am still shivering in the memory of permanent
deletion). The reason probably is that Jimbo is not
able to follow some of the discussions.

If the feature is available, it will be used. And
probably not with Jimbo seal. Till now, conflict was
eventually "solved" through mass reversion and
protection of page. I suppose now it will perhaps be
through blocking.

It is easy to see on RC that a user is mass reverted.

It is not easy to see a page is protected (essentially
because people don't put headers, do not list it, and
others unprotect). But we may notice the user
protesting vehemently

However, if the user is blocked, we may not even
realise it (except for pure bliss coming down the
wikipedia after a fight). I wonder if it might not be
relevant to have somehow a warning somewhere telling
us that a user name has been blocked since last
connection. Otherwise, we might not notice and be able
to unblock him perhaps.

Just thoughts. Setting up blocking of names (which
will be block with the ip, so entirely prevent the
user to communicate with us) is just changing the
concept. It requires to adapt.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Michael again *sigh*

body:
Tim Starling wrote:

>I've just made a change to the software
>which allows sysops to ban logged-in
>users. See my post in wikitech-l for the
>technical details. It is currently in CVS.
>Once it's live, it should be a great help for
>dealing with Michael.

Thank you Tim! At least now we will force the vandals to take the time needed
to create a new login and force their modem to fetch a new IP address.

Auto expiration of IP bans and rollback of page moves would also be nice...

Anything to slow down vandals like Micheal and the MIT vandal is a good thing.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 12:44:20AM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> This post is dedicated to Michael :)
>
> I did a quick hack which allows sysops to ban logged-in users. This was
> discussed on wikien-l long, long ago, and was widely agreed to be a good
> idea (well, not that widely, but Jimbo was particularly keen). Basically you
> just type the username into the ban IP box. I changed a few messages to
> indicate that you could do it.
>
> Blocking a logged-in user by IP address was slightly trickier (but still
> only required a handful of lines). Whenever any banned user successfully
> logs on and accesses a page, their IP address is automatically blocked. The
> reason given is 'Autoblocked because you share an IP address with "Michael".
> Reason: blah blah blah', and the "blocked by" field is copied. That way the
> "you are banned discuss this with xxxx" message still makes sense. As usual,
> these automatically generated entries, and the original username entries,
> can be unblocked by any sysop (even blocked sysops).
>
> I know Michael has been making a nuisance of himself again, so I'm sure a
> lot of people will be interested in seeing this go live quickly.
>
> I also fixed that annoying undeletion problem (mostly). It still doesn't
> update the search index, or user_newtalk, or site_stats, or probably a few
> other things. But at least the link table is fixed up.

That's going to give sysops waaaaay too much power.
I don't think it's good idea.

Btw, Tim, try making your email less spammy ;-)

    Content analysis details:   (4.40 points, 5 required)
    FROM_WEBMAIL_ENDS_IN_NUMS6 (1.5 points)  From address is webmail, and ends in lots of numbers
    FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS  (0.7 points)  From: ends in numbers
    SEMIFORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD (1.7 points)  hotmail.com 'From' address, but no 'Received:'
    PRIORITY_NO_NAME   (0.5 points)  Message has priority setting, but no X-Mailer


body:
Toby Bartels wrote:

>Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>
>>I thought the purpose of Wikibooks was to create original, freely
>>licensed (FDL) textbooks.
>>
>>
>
>Wikibooks has moved beyond merely /text/books since some time ago.
>(Do not be confused by the limited examples and temporary URL!)
>

Actually I was going by the main page, which says right at the top:
"'''Wikibooks''' is a [[en:Wikimedia|Wikimedia]] project set up July 10,
2003 for the cooperative development of free, open content textbooks."

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Brion wrote:
>I thought the purpose of Wikibooks was to create
>original, freely licensed (FDL) textbooks.

That is our main mission, yes. But anything else book-wise a student may be
required to have in the classroom is also fair game (shorter works, such as
speeches, could be organized into a book of speeches).

For example, if students are required to read The Scarlet Letter then
Wikibooks should have that and eventually annotate it (when to annotate is
still a bit controversial; IMO we shouldn't require annotation right away).
We also aim to create extensive booklet summaries of different works (akin to
Cliffs Notes), with an emphasis on works that are still under copyright.

>If annotated public domain works are within this mission,
>then great, start putting in them books!

We need three software features to make this successful in the long term; the
ability to create wiki books, an annotation feature, and a source:namespace
that limits edits to logged-in users.

But in the meantime we could place public domain books under "source:" page
titles, have boilerplate div-based annotation and limit hard-coding of
navigation links to a single link per module which links back to the
TOC/Index page of the book. Protection from anon edits isn't a real issue
right now, but may become more important as the number of daily edits
increases. This is a hack but it should work in the short term.

>But it's a bit of a surprise to me, and probably to many
>others. Perhaps we need a clearer WikiMedia Project Map
>of some sort so the left hand knows what the right is doing. :)

This is a great idea!

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: My Wikipedia Rant

body:
jdepape at cfl.rr.com wrote:

>=======================Forwarded Message=======================
>
>Forum:    the Politics:  The Bully Pulpit Forum
>Subject:  My Wikipedia Rant
>From:     John (CHICAGOJOHN)
>To:       Fish (FFFFFFFFFISH)
>DateTime: 8/25/2003 12:56:22 PM
>
>ROFL!!!
>I just went there.  That was awesome!
>I'm tempted to go there and adjust some of my favorite definitions.
>
>John
>
>
>
What an complete moron.
Let's drown him in virus spam.


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Sysop ability to ban logged in users;	Undelete
	bug   fixed

body:
Tim Starling wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> So all one has to do is log out _and_ change IP addresses. (A few
>> seconds, click a couple buttons for many people with dynamic IPs.)
>> Create a new account name under the new IP, and go wild.
>
>
> I don't think most vandals would know how to change their IP address
> easily. But even if they did, this modification makes things much
> harder for them, and much easier for us.

Well, this whole issue is over A Certain Person who exploits the current
system by creating multiple accounts and frequently changing IPs,
exactly the situation that can most easily get around this.

>> One might gain a slight additional protection by setting a "you're
>> banned" note in the session data or a separate cookie instead of (or
>> in addition to) banning the IP. The bannee could clear their cookies
>> or restart their brower to clear it.
>
>
> That's possible, but I'm happy to wait and see how effective the
> current measures are. Banning with cookies could cause problems for
> Internet cafes, because it would be difficult to lift the ban after a
> complaint.

The cookie or session variable could store a random-generated ID number
which could sit in ipblocks and be displayed in the "you're blocked"
notice, and used to unblock by if someone complains.

(Also, if one is blocked accidentally, it's not very clear how to
contact anybody about it. It tells you the username of the person who
made the block, but you can't leave a note on their talk page. You can't
e-mail them through the "e-mail this user" function because you're not a
logged-in user with an e-mail address set...)

> Automatic expiration? Piece of cake, give me 24 hours. Any suggestions
> for the lifetime?

24 hours? :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
From: Rick
> Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps it would be better than anyone practicing
> > deletion, knew how to practice undeletion as well :-)
> > check here and good luck

> I'm going to try very hard not to take that as an attack, but it's
very hard to do.
?
Actually, she was being rather polite. If it weren't for the fact that
the interface is designed such that deletion is much easier than
undeletion, I'd consider being an active deleter but not knowing how to
undelete grounds for losing sysophood.

But I trust you're up to speed now.

Happy hacking,

tc


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Cease fire

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote on wikipedia-l:
> I'm declaring another cease fire -- the last one worked out pretty
> well, and what the hell.

> LOTS of people have written me asking me to ban EofT.  The reasons
> should be readily apparent.  No one has written me asking me to ban
> RK, but LOTS of people are of the opinion that he needs to be a LOT
> nicer to people, all around.

> What I'd like to do is call a ceasefire on this one for a week or so,
> starting now.  (I'll be posting this on Wikipedia as well, on my user
> page, on RK's user page, and on EofT's user page.)

I'm copying this to wikien-l because that's where it belongs.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Google Adwords

body:
On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 08:01:25AM -0700, Toby Bartels wrote:
> Jens Frank wrote:
>
> >It's a 50 Euro coupon and if we create an add using
> >the keyword "encyclopedia" google estimates it to
> >cost 12 Euros per day when paying only the minimal
> >Cost-per-Click rate of 5 cent. This would mean it's
> >a 4 days campaign.
>
> Can we set it up so that the ad will run until the ?50 run out,
> regardless of how long (or short!) that takes?
> Since Wikimedia doesn't have a budget,
> we don't want to get stuck with unexpected charges.

As far as I can tell, yes. And since they only accept
credit card payment, this would actually be my risk :-)

	JeLuF


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Brion-
>
>
>>I've added a more convenient link into the undeletion system, which will
>>show in bold at the top of the page when viewing a page which has been
>>deleted (if you're a sysop).
>>
>>
>
>I'm not sure what the point of this is.
>
To make it actually possible for human beings to get into the undeletion
system?

Naw, screw humans. They just make trouble for the machine collective! :)

> Now I get lots of annoying
>messages on pages that have at some point been created as an experiment
>and later been re-created as a real page.
>

So far one compliment vs one complaint. About usual. :)

If we had a decent deletion log table, it would be a trivial matter to
only display the bold notice for recently deleted pages, and for the
rest just have a boring note down at the bottom and/or an "Undelete"
link in the sidebar.

We don't yet have a deletion/sysop event log table. If you'd like to
whip one up before I get to it, it would happen sooner rather than later.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Maveric149 wrote:

>>OK, I'll come out against having a separate Wikisource project since that
>>is part of the whole reason of having Wikibooks.

>I thought the purpose of Wikibooks was to create original, freely
>licensed (FDL) textbooks.

Wikibooks has moved beyond merely /text/books since some time ago.
(Do not be confused by the limited examples and temporary URL!)
It is news to me that Wikibooks wants to have /unedited/ sources;
I know that Wikibooks wants to have /annotated/ sources,
but since Wikipedia wants to have the very same thing,
I don't think that storing original sources in Wikibooks is the right thing.
On Wikisource, they can be made use of by any other project,
Wikibook /and/ Wikipedia (and even Wiktionary if it likes,
although in that case I can't imagine why it would want them).

>If annotated public domain works are within this mission, then great,
>start putting in them books! But it's a bit of a surprise to me, and
>probably to many others.

Yes, annotated public domain works are within the mission,
even if you limit it to textbooks for a schoolcourse,
because anthologies are used like literature textbooks.
But then again, annotated public domain documents on a smaller scale
are within the mission of an encylcopaedia -- they are in paper ones now.
And that's why they have been appearing on various Wikipedias lately --
which IIRC is how this whole thread got started in the first place!

So Wikisource should have all sources in one big wiki,
because all languages want the same original documents.
And both Wikipedia and Wikibooks can call those sources up
(by copying them now, but perhaps in a more sophisticated, integrated way
if anybody writes the code to do the magic) and annotate them
(in whichever way is appropriate, for an encylcopaedia or an anthology).

>Perhaps we need a clearer WikiMedia Project Map
>of some sort so the left hand knows what the right is doing. :)

That would be great.  I can't even remember what they all are!
Maybe mav (or anybody that knows) can put one up on [[meta:]]?

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] A few different topics

references:
<8t1Ey7ICpVB@erik_moeller> <8t1Ey7ICpVB@erik_moeller>
	<5.2.0.9.2.20030831193653.032f2b70@digitalgrapefruit.com>

body:
Dante Alighieri wrote:

> On another note, could someone (sorry Brion) please make it easier to
> IP block? Unless I'm missing something obvious, as it stands right now
> I have to muck through the Recent Changes until I find an edit by a
> given IP before I can block them. It would be extraordinarily useful
> to have a Special:Block_this_IP page where one could manually enter in
> an IP to have it blocked.

We got that: [[Special:Blockip]]

Yay! I don't have to do any work. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Dante Alighieri

subject: [WikiEN-l] A few different topics

body:
At 06:11 PM 8/31/2003, you wrote:
>We don't yet have a deletion/sysop event log table. If you'd like to whip
>one up before I get to it, it would happen sooner rather than later.
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

C'mon, Brion, you slacker! Get to it! What the heck are we paying you for,
anyway? ;)

I would suggest an auto-expiration of IP blocks at one week. This will most
likely be long enough to discourage people from repeat vandalism without
unduly affecting those poor souls who share dynamic IPs with vandals.

On another note, could someone (sorry Brion) please make it easier to IP
block? Unless I'm missing something obvious, as it stands right now I have
to muck through the Recent Changes until I find an edit by a given IP
before I can block them. It would be extraordinarily useful to have a
Special:Block_this_IP page where one could manually enter in an IP to have
it blocked. At the very least, an option to block could be a link on an
IP-users contribution page or something.

-----
Dante Alighieri
dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> I agree with Erik that it looks too much like the "you have new message"
> notification. But it's certainly a useful feature and I think it would
> be a pity to force people disable it for aesthetic reasons. I think if
> it was not bold, it would blend in to the other top links and you'd
> barely notice it unless you were looking for it. Plus it would look like
> "delete this page" and "protect this page", so it would be reasonably
> consistent also.

Fair enough. For the moment I've dropped the <strong> but left it
otherwise intact.

(I also fixed it so it produced a correct link on pages in namespaces.
Oops!)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Michael again *sigh*

body:
> From:  Daniel Mayer
> Thank you Tim! At least now we will force the vandals to take the time
> needed
> to create a new login and force their modem to fetch a new IP address.
>
> Auto expiration of IP bans and rollback of page moves would also be
> nice...
>
> Anything to slow down vandals like Micheal and the MIT vandal is a
good
> thing.
>
Hooray! Let's make it into a competition, a game, because we know how
unattractive computer games are to computer geeks!

Seriously, an arms race is not a useful allocation of developer energy,
however much fun devising defensive stratefies is.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Google Adwords

body:
Jens Frank wrote:

>As far as I can tell, yes. And since they only accept
>credit card payment, this would actually be my risk :-)

Hey, if it's on your credit card, do you need permission? -_^

-- Toby


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Internationalisation of "magic words"

body:
I've just committed some code to CVS which allows internationalisation of
"magic words" (my term) such as #REDIRECT, __NOTOC__, {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}},
etc. I've done it so that each word can have a number of synonyms. I expect
we will implement it so that the english words work everywhere: this
eliminates conversion cost, avoids annoying people by forcing them to change
their habits, and makes it easier for people to contribute to many different
language wikis. We can add localised versions as soon as someone from that
wiki translates it. Some languages may want more than one localised synonym,
for example with and without accents.

In Language.php, there is a new global variable $wgMagicWordsEn, and an
accessor function which can be overridden on a language-by-language basis.
The variable is an array of arrays, where the first element of each row
indicates whether or not the word is case sensitive, and the rest of the
elements are synonyms.

This data is loaded into a MagicWord object on demand, using the syntax:

$mw =& MagicWord::get( MAG_REDIRECT )

That's right folks, in a Wikipedia first I've actually used constants! And
references! For convenience, there is a $wgMwRedir variable, where the
get( MAG_REDIRECT) has been done for you in Setup.php. The MagicWord object
has lots of handy searching and replacing functions, which means that you
only very rarely have to deal with actual regular expressions.

According to the PHP manual strstr is much faster than preg_match for
equivalent tasks, but I did a quick benchmark and found them to be pretty
much the same (at least in the large-string limit). So I used regular
expressions all the time.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions

body:
Erik wrote:
>....
>Can we disable this by default and make it
>a preference? Otherwise people will probably
>start restoring junk revisions just to get rid of
>the messages.

I agree. Please make this a user preference for sysop accounts with the
default set to no.

-- mav


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: blocking user name

body:
Anth?re wrote in part:

>However, if the user is blocked, we may not even
>realise it (except for pure bliss coming down the
>wikipedia after a fight). I wonder if it might not be
>relevant to have somehow a warning somewhere telling
>us that a user name has been blocked since last
>connection. Otherwise, we might not notice and be able
>to unblock him perhaps.

Regularly check [[Sepcial:Ipblocklist]].

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] "List of Heterosexuals"

body:
Lypheklub wrote:

>Cast your vote for the deletion of the page
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heterosexuals at
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_heterosexuals/deletion .
>The voting ends in a week.

And you can also discuss there whether you support
the claim that majority votes determine deletion now.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: My Wikipedia Rant

body:
Gutza wrote:

> I think banning him would probably prove the point that Wikipedia
> isn't completely unregulated. But then again, it would probably also
> prove that we're fascists to such a person. Not banning him would
> prove him that Wikipedia is unreliable. Talking about him proves that
> we're a bunch of losers who have nothing better to do. So I think
> ignoring the guy would probably be the best thing to do, along with
> keeping an eye on his IP and reverting his changes, should some more
> occur in the future.
>
I want to talk to this guy.
His opinions of wikipedia aside -- does he really derive amusement from
causing damage to something other people have worked hard on?
I thought humans grew out of the "kicking sandcastles" phase in late
adolescence.
Anyway, this is something I'll maybe raise on MeatBall.
:)


subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Penis]]

body:
I don't have a good enough connection to clean this up - in particular
the deletion log is taking forever to come up.
Someone moved [[Penis]] to [[/User:Scarequotes]]

Unfortunately, this was fixed by
1. deleting /[[/User:Scarequotes]]
2. pasting the text of [[Penis]] back in

So we have ow lost all of that page's edit history.
Please could someone fix?
( we need to undelete ///[[/User:Scarequotes]], and move it back)/
/

///
//
//


subject: [WikiEN-l] A few different topics

body:
I disagree -- the easier we make it to block someone,
the shorter the time ought be. Keeping a block valid
even for a day is in most cases more than good enough.

-S-

--- Dante Alighieri <dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com>
wrote:
> At 06:11 PM 8/31/2003, you wrote:
> >We don't yet have a deletion/sysop event log table.
> If you'd like to whip
> >one up before I get to it, it would happen sooner
> rather than later.
> >
> >-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> C'mon, Brion, you slacker! Get to it! What the heck
> are we paying you for,
> anyway? ;)
>
> I would suggest an auto-expiration of IP blocks at
> one week. This will most
> likely be long enough to discourage people from
> repeat vandalism without
> unduly affecting those poor souls who share dynamic
> IPs with vandals.
>
> On another note, could someone (sorry Brion) please
> make it easier to IP
> block? Unless I'm missing something obvious, as it
> stands right now I have
> to muck through the Recent Changes until I find an
> edit by a given IP
> before I can block them. It would be extraordinarily
> useful to have a
> Special:Block_this_IP page where one could manually
> enter in an IP to have
> it blocked. At the very least, an option to block
> could be a link on an
> IP-users contribution page or something.
>
>
> -----
> Dante Alighieri
> dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com
>
> "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those
> who maintain their
> neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
>     -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


body:
Toby wrote:
>It is news to me that Wikibooks wants to have
>/unedited/ sources; I know that Wikibooks wants
>to have /annotated/ sources,

I'm of the opinion that importing the unannotated source will encourage
annotation much more than not having the source text on the wiki at all. It's
a bit hard to annotate something that is not there yet! If we expect each
Wikibooks source module to have annotation on it /before/ it is imported,
then I don't think much of anything will get imported. Thus nothing will get
annotated.

I don't see a problem with having many source texts go unannotated for a long
time; they will get annotated eventually.

>but since Wikipedia wants to have the very
>same thing, I don't think that storing original
>sources in Wikibooks is the right thing.

Why not? A Wikipedia article can just point to the Wikibooks source text. An
added plus is that the Wikibooks version of the text would have or at least
plans to have annotation. As more people read it, more people will add
annotation which makes the source text more and more useful. Pointing people
to a version of the text on Wikisourse that cannot be annotated, will prevent
them from adding value to the source text via annotation. Why not just point
them to a place that welcomes annotation?

>On Wikisource, they can be made use of by
>any other project, Wikibook /and/ Wikipedia
>(and even Wiktionary if it likes, although in that
>case I can't imagine why it would want them).

Why is a separate project needed for this?

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Allan Crossman

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions

body:
On 31 Aug 2003 at 21:16, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

I've fixed the Penis page by undeletion and moving...

To undelete in Explorer, first bookmark this address:

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Undelete&target=PAGENAME

Now, whenever you need to undelete, just go to that page (nothing bad happens
if you actually load it), change "PAGENAME" in the URL to the name of the page,
e.g. User:Scarequotes, and there you go.

Don't try using the Deletion log to get there, it takes forever to load,
usually.

Evercat
--
Allan Crossman - http://dogma.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
PGP keys - 0x06C4BCCA (new) || 0xCEC9FAE1 (compatible)


from_name: Gutza

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: My Wikipedia Rant

body:
I think banning him would probably prove the point that Wikipedia isn't
completely unregulated. But then again, it would probably also prove
that we're fascists to such a person. Not banning him would prove him
that Wikipedia is unreliable. Talking about him proves that we're a
bunch of losers who have nothing better to do. So I think ignoring the
guy would probably be the best thing to do, along with keeping an eye on
his IP and reverting his changes, should some more occur in the future.

Just my 2c.

P.S. Brion, got your mail just as I was writing this one--you didn't
miss anything, don't worry. :) But maybe try with a different browser?

Gutza

Steve Vertigum wrote:

>Next time include a link Tarq --
>http://forums.delphiforums.com/bully/messages/?msg=25069.1
>
>After reading a little, I dont think hes a total
>moron, just a typical product of his isolated,
>depressed, and buttoned-down HUA, TYOB culture of the
>50s/70s/90s conservative.
>
>-S-
>ps:
>HUA means "head up ass"
>TYOB mean "toke your own butthole"
>
>--- tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:
>
>
>>jdepape at cfl.rr.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>=======================Forwarded
>>>
>>>
>>Message=======================
>>
>>
>>>Forum:    the Politics:  The Bully Pulpit Forum
>>>Subject:  My Wikipedia Rant
>>>From:     John (CHICAGOJOHN)
>>>To:       Fish (FFFFFFFFFISH)
>>>DateTime: 8/25/2003 12:56:22 PM
>>>
>>>ROFL!!!
>>>I just went there.  That was awesome!
>>>I'm tempted to go there and adjust some of my
>>>
>>>
>>favorite definitions.
>>
>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>What an complete moron.
>>Let's drown him in virus spam.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


body:
The Cunctator wrote:
>>From: Erik Moeller
>>I do not see the information
>>that deleted revisions exist as so useful as to have it on all pages,
>>primarily because there's simply a fairly large number of pages which
>>have been experimentally created at one point, deleted, and recreated.
>>How about displaying it in the top bar only for non-existing pages, and
>>otherwise displaying it only on "Page history"? This should also reduce
>>the number of checks in the ARCHIVE table needed.
>
>
> That's a good idea.

Done, checked in, and installed.

Well, that was fun! We get a lot more feedback when we just install
stuff on the live server like this. ;)

(Disclaimer: not recommended except for bug fixes and 'emergency
features' that everyone's bitching about the lack of and require only
very small code changes.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Bahnev

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 1307

body:
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:49:17 +0100
> From: Kurt Jansson <jansson at gmx.net>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] IBM analyzing Wikipedia page histories
> To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> Message-ID: <3F4FAE3D.2050103 at gmx.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Fernanda Viegas wrote:
>
> > 3. Another poster asked about our diff method: I think the main
> > difference between ours and yours is that ours is operating at a finer
> > granularity (roughly at the sentence level, rather than the paragraph
> > level). We'd be happy to talk in more detail, if you want!
>
> I'd love to see MediaWiki use a smarter diff function, but I have no
> programing skills (well, TurboPascal, but that's long ago ...). Maybe
> one of our not-so-busy developers (are there any?) could talk with you
> about this.
>
>
> > 4. We have been finding some fascinating patterns about the different
> > ways in which people collaborate in Wikipedia. We are currently writing
> > a paper about this and would be happy to share it with the community
> > after we are done.
>
> Great!
>
>
> Kurt
>
>

Can you tell me what "diff" means?


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Pb with logos.

body:
I have no time to clean it up right now. Sorry.

But someone is messing with logos, replacing some old
logos with some cat related logo.

Logo 138 was not the initial logo. It was replaced

Ant

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Penis

body:
Sometimes, RickK, Anthere's tone can appear as an attack but it is usually
just because, as someone whose first language is not english, the fact that
she made be being ironic may not communicated clearly. Most people find it
difficult to express subtle nuances in languages other than their mother
tongue. (You should hear me trying to be ironic in french!!!)

Please remember, folks, Michael is the bad guy here. RickK like so many of
us was simply trying to undo Michael's vandalism. Don't let Michael create a
situation where, as well as regularly vandalising our site, he starts fights
among decent users over how to deal with him. RickK tried to do the right
thing in the wrong way. Most of have at some stage. The sooner the Michael
problem is dealt with the better for all of us.

JT
>
>I'm going to try very hard not to take that as an attack, but it's very
>hard to do.
>
>RickK
>
>Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Rick giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
>Sun Aug 31 14:02:43 UTC 2003
>
>
>I did the delete. I thought the original page's
>history stayed with the original name. Sorry. I
>don't know how to do an undelete or I'd do it. But
>then, how do you rename it so that it keeps the
>history? And it was Michael who did the move to begin
>with. He's decided to visit us again today.
>
>RickK
>
>Perhaps it would be better than anyone practicing
>deletion, knew how to practice undeletion as well :-)
>check here and good luck
>
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_undeletion
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>_______________________________________________
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>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
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body:
> From: Erik Moeller
> I do not see the information
> that deleted revisions exist as so useful as to have it on all pages,
> primarily because there's simply a fairly large number of pages which
have
> been experimentally created at one point, deleted, and recreated.
>
> How about displaying it in the top bar only for non-existing pages,
and
> otherwise displaying it only on "Page history"? This should also
reduce
> the number of checks in the ARCHIVE table needed.

That's a good idea.


body:
Magnus wrote
>Because it's something different. Like wikibook is
>something different than wikipedia, annotating
>public domain texts and summarizing copyrighted
>ones is something different than writing a completely
>new book on, say, biochemistry, or Spanish.

But Wikibooks has already decided to do this! Wikibooks /is not/ just about
textbooks. So please don't fork the project. This is completely unnecessary.

Wikibooks is supposed to be a free bookstore/library. So just about anything
you would expect to find in such a place you should find in Wikibooks.
Annotating public domain books /is/ in our mandate because it is part of the
instructional process of students.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


body:
This post is dedicated to Michael :)

I did a quick hack which allows sysops to ban logged-in users. This was
discussed on wikien-l long, long ago, and was widely agreed to be a good
idea (well, not that widely, but Jimbo was particularly keen). Basically you
just type the username into the ban IP box. I changed a few messages to
indicate that you could do it.

Blocking a logged-in user by IP address was slightly trickier (but still
only required a handful of lines). Whenever any banned user successfully
logs on and accesses a page, their IP address is automatically blocked. The
reason given is 'Autoblocked because you share an IP address with "Michael".
Reason: blah blah blah', and the "blocked by" field is copied. That way the
"you are banned discuss this with xxxx" message still makes sense. As usual,
these automatically generated entries, and the original username entries,
can be unblocked by any sysop (even blocked sysops).

I know Michael has been making a nuisance of himself again, so I'm sure a
lot of people will be interested in seeing this go live quickly.

I also fixed that annoying undeletion problem (mostly). It still doesn't
update the search index, or user_newtalk, or site_stats, or probably a few
other things. But at least the link table is fixed up.

-- Tim Starling


body:
Magnus wrote:
>Because it's something different. Like wikibook is
>something different than wikipedia, annotating
>public domain texts and summarizing copyrighted
>ones is something different than writing a completely
>new book on, say, biochemistry, or Spanish.

But Wikipedia is more than just an encyclopedia; it also has supporting
almanac-like information and articles in it along with supporting
gazetteer-like information and articles in it. Wiktionary is also not just a
dictionary; it is also a thesaurus and a translating dictionary. Sometimes a
few to several different things are similar and complimentary enough to each
other that it makes sense to put them together. This tends to make one
larger, more active project vs several smaller weaker projects.

And it makes a great deal of sense to include the works of Shakespeare, for
example, in Wikibooks so that it can be used along side a literature textbook
(which will have lessons and questions specifically about particular plays).

>Advantages:
>* Easier for the "end consumer"

No it isn't. Having things separate will make it more difficult for
instructors to write questions based on the source text and to annotate that
text to suit the needs of the literature textbook. And the student will have
to go to two different places for his/her textbooks and his/her sourcebooks.

>* Easier to look at RecentChanges

Huh? How is having source text going to mess that up?

>* Easier to fine-tune the software to each project

Just enable a special namespace called "source" in Wikibooks. Done. Then
instead of two different installations to maintain, you only have one.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Michael again *sigh*

body:
I've just made a change to the software which allows sysops to ban logged-in
users. See my post in wikitech-l for the technical details. It is currently
in CVS. Once it's live, it should be a great help for dealing with Michael.

-- Tim Starling.


body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tomasz Wegrzanowski" <taw at users.sourceforge.net>
To: "A mailing list for discussing about the technical organization of
theWikipedias" <wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Sysop ability to ban logged in users;Undelete bug
fixed

> On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 12:44:20AM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> > This post is dedicated to Michael :)
> >
> > I did a quick hack which allows sysops to ban logged-in users. This was
> > discussed on wikien-l long, long ago, and was widely agreed to be a good
> > idea (well, not that widely, but Jimbo was particularly keen). Basically
you
> > just type the username into the ban IP box. I changed a few messages to
> > indicate that you could do it.

<snip>

> That's going to give sysops waaaaay too much power.
> I don't think it's good idea.

It's necessary. Michael's actions have made it worth the tradeoff. Plus it
gives us more defence against vandalbots. We can add an "untrusted user"
definition if you think it's necessary, but remember that sysops are now a
large (>100), heterogeneous group of people.

> Btw, Tim, try making your email less spammy ;-)
>
>     Content analysis details:   (4.40 points, 5 required)
>     FROM_WEBMAIL_ENDS_IN_NUMS6 (1.5 points)  From address is webmail, and
ends in lots of numbers
>     FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS  (0.7 points)  From: ends in numbers

I had to pick something which was easy to remember, and ts4294967296
certainly is :) My real address is t-starling-physics-unimelb-edu-au, but I
don't want Mozilla beeping at me every five minutes.

>     SEMIFORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD (1.7 points)  hotmail.com 'From' address, but
no 'Received:'

Probably GMANE's fault. Better now?

>     PRIORITY_NO_NAME   (0.5 points)  Message has priority setting, but no
X-Mailer

That's probably Outlook Express's fault.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikitech-l] Arrow graphics for enhanced recentchanges?

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> I got them from some free-icons-site (don't know which one, but it said
> "free to use" or something).
>
>> b) Are they GPL-compatible?
>
> Tough one. I doubt whoverver made them will come after us for using
> them, though. If you put someting you made on the web and say "free to
> use", it sounds like public domain to me...
>
>> c) If a) and b) are satisfactory, any objection to adding them to CVS?
>> (They have to be marked as binary files in some way if so. I don't
>> know the option offhand.)
>
> If there's a problem with their legal status, I can draw some new ones.

Well, if we're not even sure where they come from, it might be the best
thing to replace them.

Perhaps it's time for [[m:International arrow icon contest]]? We'll have
some finalists ready in time for New Year's! ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions

body:
Brion-
> I've added a more convenient link into the undeletion system, which will
> show in bold at the top of the page when viewing a page which has been
> deleted (if you're a sysop).

I'm not sure what the point of this is. Now I get lots of annoying
messages on pages that have at some point been created as an experiment
and later been re-created as a real page. In virtually all of these cases
I don't want to restore the deleted revisions. The very few cases in which
there might be something useful accidentally deleted do not IMHO justify
enabling this for all 100+ sysops and not making it configurable. Can we
disable this by default and make it a preference? Otherwise people will
probably start restoring junk revisions just to get rid of the messages.

This is particularly problematic since the deleted revisions info looks
just like the "new messages" info and is in the same place. I know the
intent is to standardize style, but it reduces usability, as it makes the
much less common but more important talk page notification easier to miss.

Regards,

Erik


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Sysop ability to ban logged in users;
	Undelete bug   fixed

body:
Tim-
> Automatic expiration? Piece of cake, give me 24 hours. Any suggestions
> for the lifetime?

Should be configurable in minutes, with 0=infinite (we have permanently
banned users).

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Preferences

body:
(CC'd to wikitech-l)

Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
> Can we have a [[Wikipedia:Preferences]] page that will be the header of the
> [[Special:Preferences]] page ? (like [[Wikipedia:RecentChanges]] and
> [[Special:RecentChanges]]).
> In fact it may be very cool if all [[Special:xxx]] started with an include
> of [[Wikipedia:xxx]].
> It may be very useful especially for localize (no-english Wikipedia)
> specification to add explication and links.
> How?

Tim Starling's been working on some experimental code whereby various
additional things can be made like this.

Another possibility is to make [[Special:xxx]] just appear a little more
like a normal page; that is, there would be an "edit this page" link by
which you can edit the header text.

So instead of a separate [[Wikipedia:Recentchanges]] to find and
maintain, you'd just go to [[Special:Recentchanges]] and hit edit in the
usual fashion. A [[Special talk:xxx]] namespace to go with it would be
useful too.

(Technical note: currently Special: is given numeric code -1; if we were
storing such pages in the database this would interfere with some code
that deals with non-talk vs talk pages as being even/odd-numbered.
Reassigning it to the next available positive integer (8?) shouldn't
interfere with anything.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Preferences


subject: [Wikitech-l] A little more refactoring: death to globals!

body:
Hacking away at the dev branch...

I've switched Article to no longer be hardcoded to $wgTitle; instead a
new Article object is to be given a Title object to imprint on, which
will just happen to be $wgTitle in present usage.

I also folded together the on / off pairs for watching and protecting
pages. There's way too much code duplication here...

And there's another new file: ImagePage.php has a child class of Article
which contains the image-description-page-specific code. Article.php is
now down to an almost manageable 1107 lines, 575 lines slimmer than its
stable sibling.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] software for making maps

body:
This software is used to make maps like those on
    http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_first_useful_map
    http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_polygon_map

It's not all the software I have here.

Queries in city names database are being made separately,
here only "cities2.pl" with cities for the first useful map is attached.

This software needs:
* absolutely most recent version of ImageMagick (5.5.7-10)
  5.5.7-9 is not recent enough, it contains very serious bug
* Ruby and RMagick
* Geo::E00 (attached)

And data:
* NASA's BlueMarble (raster background)
    ftp://mitch.gsfc.nasa.gov:21/pub/stockli/bluemarble/
* CIA World DataBank II in text format (rivers)
    http://www.evl.uic.edu/pape/data/WDB/
* UNEP/GRID data (boundaries / polygons)
    http://www.grid.unep.ch/data/grid/gnv19.php
    I'm not terribly certain about copyright status of this.
    If it's bad, we always have 1988 free data and
    only a couple of borders to digitalize.

It should be possible to run it without BlueMarble
or rivers data if these features aren't used.
Boundary data is necessary.
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body:
Brion-
> To make it actually possible for human beings to get into the undeletion
> system?

Many months ago I made myself a little custom keyword for undeleting
pages:
http://www.mozilla.org/docs/end-user/keywords.html
When I want to do so, I just type "und page_name". While this is a hack
and you are correct that a proper action log table and a redesigned
undeletion interface would be preferable, I do not see the information
that deleted revisions exist as so useful as to have it on all pages,
primarily because there's simply a fairly large number of pages which have
been experimentally created at one point, deleted, and recreated.

How about displaying it in the top bar only for non-existing pages, and
otherwise displaying it only on "Page history"? This should also reduce
the number of checks in the ARCHIVE table needed.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Oliver Pereira

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions

body:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Brion Vibber wrote:

> >Brion-
> >>I've added a more convenient link into the undeletion system, which will
> >>show in bold at the top of the page when viewing a page which has been
> >>deleted (if you're a sysop).

> So far one compliment vs one complaint. About usual. :)

Another compliment for you, then: I hereby nominate it for Most Useful New
Feature of the Year 2003. :)

I'd previously undeleted things either by going to the big long list of
deleted things, which took ages to load, or by cobbling the right URL
together manually, which was slightly annoying. So I think that the new
feature is very useful.

However, I see Erik's point about it being too prominent (I think that's
what he meant by "annoying" ;). Would just making it not bold any more be
a satisfactory compromise?

Oliver

+-------------------------------------------+
| Oliver Pereira                            |
| Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science |
| University of Southampton                 |
| omp199 at ecs.soton.ac.uk                    |
+-------------------------------------------+


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] An Approval Process (Proposal)

body:
on 9/1/03 12:56 AM, David Levinson at dlevinson at mn.rr.com wrote:

> Proposal for a Wikipedia Article "Approval" Process
>
> Assuming there is support for a stable version of wikipedia, some
> mechanism for stability is required.
>
> Allow logged in users to approve any version of an article. Logged in
> users could also disapprove any or  every version of an article.
> Articles would be scored based on number of users who approved
> (weighted?) - number of users who disapproved (weighted?).  The article
> with the highest approval rating would be the released (approved)
> article.  This would be displayed somewhere distinct from the working
> wikipedia (e.g. sifter.wikipedia.org, or something similar).
>
> New users would be presented with Wikipedia Release edition.  They
> could still edit the article, but it would not be released until the
> approvals on the new article exceed the approvals on the previously
> released article. The under-edit version from which users are working
> may differ from the release version if approvals have not yet been
> found. The differences would be highlighted on the edit screen.
>
> Edits would of course appear in Recent Changes.  In addition, there
> would be Recent Approvals tracking articles which recently were voted
> on for approval.
>
> An edit would of course count as a vote for approval (if preferences so
> set).
>
> Under the article (in view mode) (for logged in users) would be  "vote
> to approve" and "vote to disapprove" buttons. A vote to approve would
> transfer a users vote to this version for approval and remove it from
> previous versions. A vote to disapprove would remain even if another
> version was disapproved.
>
> Possible weight =  1 if under 100 edits, 2 if under 200 edits, 3 if
> under 300 edits, 4 otherwise. Alternative weighting schemes are
> possible as well, including weight=1 for all logged in users.
>
> Comments?
>
> -- DavidLevinson

This is a recipe for Pablum. Often the better article is supported by only a
few people, or only one person. But feel free to do something really dumb.
After all, I'm the competition.

Fred Bauder

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org


from_name: David Levinson

body:
Proposal for a Wikipedia Article "Approval" Process

Assuming there is support for a stable version of wikipedia, some
mechanism for stability is required.

Allow logged in users to approve any version of an article. Logged in
users could also disapprove any or  every version of an article.
Articles would be scored based on number of users who approved
(weighted?) - number of users who disapproved (weighted?).  The article
with the highest approval rating would be the released (approved)
article.  This would be displayed somewhere distinct from the working
wikipedia (e.g. sifter.wikipedia.org, or something similar).

New users would be presented with Wikipedia Release edition.  They
could still edit the article, but it would not be released until the
approvals on the new article exceed the approvals on the previously
released article. The under-edit version from which users are working
may differ from the release version if approvals have not yet been
found. The differences would be highlighted on the edit screen.

Edits would of course appear in Recent Changes.  In addition, there
would be Recent Approvals tracking articles which recently were voted
on for approval.

An edit would of course count as a vote for approval (if preferences so
set).

Under the article (in view mode) (for logged in users) would be  "vote
to approve" and "vote to disapprove" buttons. A vote to approve would
transfer a users vote to this version for approval and remove it from
previous versions. A vote to disapprove would remain even if another
version was disapproved.

Possible weight =  1 if under 100 edits, 2 if under 200 edits, 3 if
under 300 edits, 4 otherwise. Alternative weighting schemes are
possible as well, including weight=1 for all logged in users.

Comments?

-- DavidLevinson


from_name: Ilyanep

subject: [Wikipedia-l] I'm back!

body: hey!


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Toby wrote:
>>On Wikisource, they can be made use of by
>>any other project, Wikibook /and/ Wikipedia
>>(and even Wiktionary if it likes, although in that
>>case I can't imagine why it would want them).
>
>
> Why is a separate project needed for this?

Because it's something different. Like wikibook is something different
than wikipedia, annotating public domain texts and summarizing
copyrighted ones is something different than writing a completely new
book on, say, biochemistry, or Spanish.

Adantages:
* Easier for the "end consumer"
* Easier to look at RecentChanges
* Easier to fine-tune the software to each project

If only we'd have a central user management... Maybe I should write one...

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] protected pages

body:
I'm a sysop, and I don't want people messing up certain pages under my user
page...would it be considered unfair if I protect them or am I allowed to do
so?

The reason I'm asking this is that I have a few friends who I want to see my
'article' under my user page and they're all anon's on wikipedia, and
there's a big chance that they'll mess it up and leave (never wanting to
come back so blocking isn't an option!)

I could just tell them to stop, but I'd feel much more comfortable with the
protection on it :)


from_name: jheiskan at welho.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] A few different topics

body:
Quoting Dante Alighieri <dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com>:

> At 06:11 PM 8/31/2003, you wrote:
> >We don't yet have a deletion/sysop event log table. If you'd like to whip
> >one up before I get to it, it would happen sooner rather than later.
> >
> >-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> C'mon, Brion, you slacker! Get to it! What the heck are we paying you for,
> anyway? ;)
>
> I would suggest an auto-expiration of IP blocks at one week. This will most
> likely be long enough to discourage people from repeat vandalism without
> unduly affecting those poor souls who share dynamic IPs with vandals.
>
>
> -----
> Dante Alighieri
> dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com
>  _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

I would suggest auto expiration of any and all kinds of blocks, after a
randomized timeperiod, weighted toward a short block and having an absolute but
most guarded and encrypted secret top length. The legitimate users would thus
experience it as a temporary glitch. The vandal who knows that the block is a
result of his activities, would be kept guessing though. Somehow I felt a dej?
lu just right now. Did I already suggest this earlier?

-- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick


from_name: Steve Vertigum

body:
I like how "static" and "anti-wiki"has come to somehow
be replaced with the term "stable"
-S-

--- David Levinson <dlevinson at mn.rr.com> wrote:
> Proposal for a Wikipedia Article "Approval" Process
>
> Assuming there is support for a stable version of
> wikipedia, some
> mechanism for stability is required.
>
> Allow logged in users to approve any version of an
> article. Logged in
> users could also disapprove any or  every version of
> an article.
> Articles would be scored based on number of users
> who approved
> (weighted?) - number of users who disapproved
> (weighted?).  The article
> with the highest approval rating would be the
> released (approved)
> article.  This would be displayed somewhere distinct
> from the working
> wikipedia (e.g. sifter.wikipedia.org, or something
> similar).
>
> New users would be presented with Wikipedia Release
> edition.  They
> could still edit the article, but it would not be
> released until the
> approvals on the new article exceed the approvals on
> the previously
> released article. The under-edit version from which
> users are working
> may differ from the release version if approvals
> have not yet been
> found. The differences would be highlighted on the
> edit screen.
>
> Edits would of course appear in Recent Changes.  In
> addition, there
> would be Recent Approvals tracking articles which
> recently were voted
> on for approval.
>
> An edit would of course count as a vote for approval
> (if preferences so
> set).
>
> Under the article (in view mode) (for logged in
> users) would be  "vote
> to approve" and "vote to disapprove" buttons. A vote
> to approve would
> transfer a users vote to this version for approval
> and remove it from
> previous versions. A vote to disapprove would remain
> even if another
> version was disapproved.
>
> Possible weight =  1 if under 100 edits, 2 if under
> 200 edits, 3 if
> under 300 edits, 4 otherwise. Alternative weighting
> schemes are
> possible as well, including weight=1 for all logged
> in users.
>
> Comments?
>
> -- DavidLevinson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki documentation -> meta

body:
You have missed the page where all the fun starts:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_architecture

Happy documentationinging (you know aht I mean)

Magnus

Daniel Mayer wrote:

> OK. My Wikiholism is advancing to the next level and
> to feed that I would like to consolidate MediaWiki's
> documentation on meta. The reasons are two-fold; 1)
> there are already forks in documentation development
> between meta, SourceForge, Lee's webpages, and various
> Wikipedia namespace pages (not to mention other
> duplication; such as in other Wikimedia projects) 2) I
> would like to understand the beast known as MediaWiki
> so that after I learn PHP I can advance to
> uber-Wikiholic and port over the WikiBook
> functionality from PyWiki and tweak it for use in
> Wikibooks.
>
> I don't want to step on anybody's toes, so I would
> like to know who is currently involved with creating
> documentation? Is there anybody working on
> coordinating documentation efforts? If so, then I
> could work with that person instead of leading this
> effort on my own. It would also be helpful to know
> where current documentation resides.
>
> Currently on meta:
>
> MediaWiki
> How to become a MediaWiki hacker
> Running MediaWiki on Windows
> Database queries on MediaWiki
> Text in MediaWiki
> MediaWiki math markup
> RDF spool
> Wiki markup tables -- proposals
> Wiki markup syntax - see Wikipedia DTD
> meta.wikipedia.org technical issues
> Sites using MediaWiki
> Wikitax
>
> On en.wikipedia:
>
> Wikipedia:MediaWiki
> Wikipedia:Software Phase III
> Wikipedia:TeX markup
> Wikipedia:Software Phase IV
> Wikipedia:TeX markup
> Wikipedia:GNU LilyPond support
> Wikipedia:Edit summary
> Whole bunch of how to use Wikipedia's software pages
> (this will take some time since many of them have
> Wikipedia-specific references).
>
> I'm thinking about organizing all this between actual
> documentation vs ideas about how MediaWiki should
> work. Documentation can be further subdivided between
> stuff for developers vs stuff for users. When we do
> finally have the WikiBook functionality, then an
> actual users guide and developer documentation guides
> can be organized on meta (complete with a "print this
> book" feature).
>
> This is a long term undertaking but I think it is
> worth the effort.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Undeletions (just hack it)

body:
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com):
 Well, that was fun! We get a lot more feedback when
> we just install
> stuff on the live server like this. ;)
>
> (Disclaimer: not recommended except for bug fixes
> and 'emergency
> features' that everyone's bitching about the lack of
> and require only
> very small code changes.)

Just do it. Everybody trusts your hacks more than they
do most other people's tedious and contrived projects
anyway.

-S-

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