subject: [Wikitech-l] Slow query log

body:
On sab, 2003-02-08 at 17:46, Brion Vibber wrote:
> My recollection of looking at the SHOW PROCESS list during peak times is
> that these queries were usually sitting in "Statistics" or "Opening
> tables" state. (What _is_ "Statistics"? The online manual doesn't seem
> to explain it.)

I've managed to catch it in the act; attached are two snapshots of "SHOW
PROCESSLIST" taken about 45 seconds apart.  A whooole bunch of threads
are stuck on the user_newtalk query in "Statistics" state; after about a
minute they fall apart and there are a bunch of cur queries in "Closing
tables" and "Opening tables".

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-------------- next part --------------
mysql> show processlist;
+-------+----------+-----------------------+----------+----------------+-------+-----------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+| Id    | User     | Host                  | db       | Command        | Time  | State           | Info                                                                                |+-------+----------+-----------------------+----------+----------------+-------+-----------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+|    70 | DELAYED  | localhost             | wikidb   | Delayed_insert | 21    | NULL            | searchindex                                                                                ||    88 | DELAYED  | localhost             | plwiki   | Delayed_insert | 9658  | Waiting on cond | searchindex                                                                                ||  1319 | DELAYED  | localhost             | metawiki | Delayed_insert | 2432  | Waiting on cond | searchindex                                                                                ||  1440 | DELAYED  | localhost             | eowiki   | Delayed_insert | 17957 | Waiting on cond | searchindex                                                                                ||  2341 | DELAYED  | localhost             | nlwiki   | Delayed_insert | 5959  | Waiting on cond | searchindex                                                                                || 23897 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 9     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='152.163.188.196'                                           || 23900 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 19    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23903 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 15    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='213.73.184.80'                                             || 23905 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 12    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='165.228.132.11'                                            || 23906 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 56    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23909 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 157   |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23912 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 19    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='133.87.1.153'                                              || 23913 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 10    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='68.69.76.206'                                              || 23916 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 6     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='130.127.45.92'                                             || 23917 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 7     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='63.240.219.201'                                            || 23918 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 8     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='12.89.145.88'                                              || 23919 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 0     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='162.40.65.42'                                              || 23920 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 19    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23922 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 16    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='129.244.23.69'                                             || 23923 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | eowiki   | Query          | 10    | statistics      | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='3-A_De_Junio'              || 23924 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 121   |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23926 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 17    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='64.187.35.57'                                              || 23928 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 1     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='68.69.76.206'                                              || 23929 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 36    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23931 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 97    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23957 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 43    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23960 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 106   |                 | NULL                                                                                || 23968 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 19    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='68.129.88.238'                                             || 23975 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 7     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_id=7104                                                        || 23981 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 4     |                 | NULL                                                                                || 24014 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | eswiki   | Query          | 18    | statistics      | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=4 AND cur_title='Bienvenidos'               || 24039 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 14    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='67.27.45.82'                                               || 24043 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | nlwiki   | Query          | 19    | statistics      | SELECT user_ip FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='66.196.74.104'                                       || 24245 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 10    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_id=2957                                                        || 24649 | DELAYED  | localhost             | testwiki | Delayed_insert | 341   | Waiting on cond | searchindex                                                                                || 24965 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 34    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25041 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 23    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25044 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 24    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25075 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 15    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='161.142.100.81'                                            || 25076 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | frwiki   | Query          | 19    | statistics      | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='1952'                      || 25174 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | metawiki | Sleep          | 20    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25196 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 17    | updating        | UPDATE LOW_PRIORITY site_stats SET ss_total_views=(ss_total_views+1),ss_total_edits=(ss_total_edits) || 25256 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 19    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='66.130.52.225'                                             || 25273 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 17    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='63.228.185.80'                                             || 25276 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 86    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25308 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='12.208.87.207'                                             || 25330 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 6     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='209.73.180.233'                                            || 25336 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 17    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='208.58.249.24'                                             || 25338 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 38    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25340 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 8     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='68.69.76.206'                                              || 25342 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 38    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25343 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 21    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25345 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 6     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='152.163.188.37'                                            || 25347 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 75    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25360 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 7     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_id=7279                                                        || 25367 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 42    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25368 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 9     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='24.92.223.162'                                             || 25369 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 10    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_id=1078                                                        || 25370 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 8     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='169.232.107.111'                                           || 25371 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | dewiki   | Query          | 15    | preparing       | SELECT user_name,user_password,user_newpassword,user_email,user_options,user_rights,user_newtalk FRO || 25372 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 10    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='12.243.179.233'                                            || 25373 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 19    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='212.138.47.17'                                             || 25374 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 4     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='208.42.94.221'                                             || 25375 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | eswiki   | Sleep          | 21    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25377 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 15    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='172.136.84.50'                                             || 25378 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 35    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25379 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | plwiki   | Query          | 10    | statistics      | SELECT user_ip FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='66.196.74.103'                                       || 25384 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 6     | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='65.239.170.181'                                            || 25386 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 11    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_id=7930                                                        || 25391 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | metawiki | Query          | 18    | statistics      | SELECT user_id FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='209.162.18.199'                                      || 25393 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 78    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25406 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | metawiki | Query          | 11    | statistics      | SELECT user_id FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='142.177.106.228'                                     || 25407 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | eowiki   | Query          | 19    | statistics      | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='Sankt-Johan-Baptist-Festo' || 25410 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 101   |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25413 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 121   |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25415 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 21    |                 | NULL                                                                                || 25416 | root     | localhost             | NULL     | Query          | 0     | NULL            | show processlist                                                                                || 25417 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 15    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='68.129.86.163'                                             || 25418 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 19    | statistics      | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='129.22.36.169'                                             |+-------+----------+-----------------------+----------+----------------+-------+-----------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
----------------------------------------------------------+
-------------- next part --------------
mysql> show processlist;
+-------+----------+-----------------------+----------+----------------+-------+----------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Id    | User     | Host                  | db       | Command        | Time  | State                | Info
    |
+-------+----------+-----------------------+----------+----------------+-------+----------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|    70 | DELAYED  | localhost             | wikidb   | Delayed_insert | 107   | Waiting on cond      | searchindex
    |
|    88 | DELAYED  | localhost             | plwiki   | Delayed_insert | 9744  | Waiting on cond      | searchindex
    |
|  1319 | DELAYED  | localhost             | metawiki | Delayed_insert | 2518  | Waiting on cond      | searchindex
    |
|  1440 | DELAYED  | localhost             | eowiki   | Delayed_insert | 18043 | Waiting on cond      | searchindex
    |
|  2341 | DELAYED  | localhost             | nlwiki   | Delayed_insert | 6045  | Waiting on cond      | searchindex
    |
| 23897 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 23900 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 23903 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 23905 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 23906 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 142   |                      | NULL
    |
| 23909 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 243   |                      | NULL
    |
| 23912 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Opening tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='Halting_problem'
    |
| 23913 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Amazing_Stories'
    |
| 23916 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 23917 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Ammonal'
    |
| 23918 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT cur_user,cur_user_text,cur_timestamp,cur_comment,cur_minor_edit FROM cur WHERE cur_id=0
    |
| 23919 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter FROM cur WHERE cur_id=28823
    |
| 23920 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter FROM cur WHERE cur_id=51672
    |
| 23922 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 2     |                      | NULL
    |
| 23923 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 1     | Opening tables       | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='192.220.111.228'
    |
| 23924 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 207   |                      | NULL
    |
| 23926 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Welfare'
    |
| 23928 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Science_fiction'
    |
| 23929 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | metawiki | Sleep          | 0     |                      | NULL
    |
| 23931 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 183   |                      | NULL
    |
| 23957 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | dewiki   | Query          | 79    | Copying to tmp table | SELECT DISTINCT cur_title, cur_counter FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_is_redirect=0 ORDER BY |
| 23960 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 192   |                      | NULL
    |
| 23968 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 23975 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=4 AND cur_title='Neutral_point_of_view'
    |
| 23981 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | dawiki   | Query          | 2     | Opening tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Gr?sk'
    |
| 24014 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | eswiki   | Query          | 1     | NULL                 | ROLLBACK
    |
| 24039 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 24043 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 1     | Opening tables       | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='199.183.72.214'
    |
| 24245 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Amplitude_modulation'
    |
| 24649 | DELAYED  | localhost             | testwiki | Delayed_insert | 427   | Waiting on cond      | searchindex
    |
| 24965 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 1     | Opening tables       | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='203.15.249.18'
    |
| 25041 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25044 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | frwiki   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Jeu_d\'?checs'
    |
| 25075 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25076 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | frwiki   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='?tats-Unis'
    |
| 25174 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title,cur_text FROM cur,searchindex WHERE cur_id=si_page AND (MATCH  |
| 25196 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 3     |                      | NULL
    |
| 25256 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | metawiki | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25273 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter FROM cur WHERE cur_id=60431
    |
| 25276 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 172   |                      | NULL
    |
| 25308 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Poetical_Sketches'
    |
| 25330 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25336 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='Amazon_Standard_Identifica |
| 25338 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='Banach_algebra'
    |
| 25340 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Science_fiction'
    |
| 25342 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | dewiki   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='30._November'
    |
| 25343 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25345 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='Nika_revolt'
    |
| 25347 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 161   |                      | NULL
    |
| 25360 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Main_Page'
    |
| 25367 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 128   |                      | NULL
    |
| 25368 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter FROM cur WHERE cur_id=21170
    |
| 25369 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Upper_German'
    |
| 25370 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine |
| 25371 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | dewiki   | Sleep          | 0     |                      | NULL
    |
| 25372 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25373 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25374 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25375 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Bertrand_Rusell'
    |
| 25377 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Cheops'
    |
| 25378 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Antagonist'
    |
| 25379 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | plwiki   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25384 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25386 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=4 AND cur_title='FAQ'
    |
| 25391 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | metawiki | Sleep          | 1     |                      | NULL
    |
| 25393 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 164   |                      | NULL
    |
| 25406 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Michelangelo'
    |
| 25407 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | eowiki   | Sleep          | 0     |                      | NULL
    |
| 25410 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 187   |                      | NULL
    |
| 25413 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 207   |                      | NULL
    |
| 25415 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25416 | root     | localhost             | NULL     | Query          | 0     | NULL                 | show processlist
    |
| 25417 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Sleep          | 1     |                      | NULL
    |
| 25418 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25420 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25421 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | preparing            | SELECT math_outputhash,math_html_conservativeness,math_html FROM math WHERE math_inputhash = 'x?
8-\ |
| 25422 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25423 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Opening tables       | SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='12.65.12.230'
    |
| 25424 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='Ankylosauria'
    |
| 25425 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='Bruce_Sinofsky'
    |
| 25426 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Nudism'
    |
| 25427 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=4 AND cur_title='FAQ'
    |
| 25428 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT old_timestamp,old_text FROM old WHERE old_id=656727
    |
| 25429 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT old_timestamp,old_text FROM old,recentchanges
                        WHERE old_id=rc_last_oldid AND rc_this_oldid |
| 25430 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25431 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25432 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25433 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25434 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25435 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25436 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25437 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25438 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | Sending data         | SELECT cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title,cur_text FROM cur,searchindex WHERE cur_id=si_page AND (MATCH  |
| 25439 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=4 AND cur_title='FAQ'
    |
| 25440 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | Copying to tmp table | SELECT
  cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title,cur_comment,
  cur_user,cur_user_text,cur_timestamp,cur_mino |
| 25441 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 3     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25442 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | Sending data         | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title
                        FROM cur,links
                        WHERE cur_id=l_to AND l_fro |
| 25443 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter FROM cur WHERE cur_id=46641
    |
| 25444 | wikiuser | localhost.localdomain | wikidb   | Query          | 2     | closing tables       | SELECT HIGH_PRIORITY cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='Etymology'
    |
+-------+----------+-----------------------+----------+----------------+-------+----------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
104 rows in set (0.00 sec)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20030209/2c94f53f/attachment.pgp>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Sean Barrett

body:
Let's compromise: Pennsylvania Allemani.

-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org]On Behalf Of Tom Parmenter
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 17:39
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Cc: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Naming convention: popularity vs. correctness

Of course, "German" is no more Deutsch (or Dietsch) than "Dutch" is.
"Dutch" is at least cognate with what they call themselves in their
own language, whereas "German" is is a Celtic name that has never been
used by any of the many Teutonic peoples.

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Tom Parmenter

subject: [WikiEN-l] Naming convention: popularity vs. correctness

body:
Of course, "German" is no more Deutsch (or Dietsch) than "Dutch" is.
"Dutch" is at least cognate with what they call themselves in their
own language, whereas "German" is is a Celtic name that has never been
used by any of the many Teutonic peoples.

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Acronyms

body:
|From: "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar>
|X-Priority: 3
|X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
|X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
|X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www.wikipedia.org id h1A1imE25488
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:15:09 +0100
|
|----- Original Message -----
|From: "Tom Parmenter" <tompar at world.std.com>
|To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
|Cc: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
|Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:18 AM
|Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Acronyms
|
|
|> |From: "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar>
|> |Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 05:04:35 +0100
|> ||
|> |We need in wikipedia free     http://www.acronymfinder.com/
|> |
|> |Regards.
|> |
|>
|> Seems to be marketing for Amazon books.  I searched on ILO, it gave me
|> a bunch of expansions, such as "International Labor Organizaton" and
|> "In Lieu Of", each with a button that led to the results of an Amazon
|> search using the expanded term as keywords.  Clever, but too
|> commercial for us, don't you think?
|>
|For sure. We could use [[acron:ILO]] and in the wikipedia [[ILO]] include :
|
|- International Labor Organizaton and so on.
|
|No commercial ( external ) links need in our wikipedia.
|
|Could be included more acronyms like IMHO and so on.
|
|Regards.

Pedro,

It is an excellent research resource.  People can use it to figure out
what an acronym means, but I would not be in favor of any kind of link
to Amazon.com advertising (and there are many people on this list who
are rabid Amazon haters who would put it much more strongly than I
would).

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88

PS - My first Spanish teacher era  mi vecino, Pedro (Mata) de Madrid..

|_______________________________________________
|Wikipedia-l mailing list
|Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
|


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Naming convention: popularity vs. correctness

body:
On Sunday 09 February 2003 02:34 pm, Erik Moeller wrote:
> No, because that name is used neither by scholars nor the public. As I
> wrote, I am not opposed to anglicization, and anglicization is by itself
> not unscientific. (There are reasonable arguments that can be made against
>   it in the case of European languages, but I do not subscribe to those
> arguments.) If there exist two different English terms, however, the one
> which is correct should in most cases be used, provided it has already been
> adopted by scholars.

Anglicization is the process by which foreign words are altered and enter into
common usage by English speakers. If you support this form of common usage
then why do you not support common usage when presented with two words which
are already in English?

> I think we need to change our naming convention to use the more correct
> article title if everybody who knows the history of the term in question
> agrees that it is correct; that is, if everybody who has a coherent POV on
>   the matter shares the same opinion. In other words, we should use
> academically correct titles, not those which Google prefers.
>
> Examples:
>
> 1) Ockham's Razor should not reside at Occam's Razor (Occam is the
> latinization of the town name Ockham; the town still exists today).
>
> 2) Pennsylvania Dutch should be at Pennsylvania German (it is not Dutch at
>   all; the word is merely a corruption of "Deutsch" or "D?tsch").
>.....

Hm. "more correct article title" Correct to whom? OIC to a small group of
people. That is hardly NPOV. Titles are /nominative/ - and that is their only
role. And as such, they should reflect what most people who are at all
familiar with the subject call it (unless the term is unreasonably
ambiguous).

Academics are harmed the least by this since they most definitely already know
what the common name of subjects are that they are experts on. But the
non-academic isn't going to necessarily know what that academics call the
subject. By extending the logic you propose all animals in Wikipedia should
be under their scientific names, [[Mark Twain]] would be under [[Samuel
Langhorn Clemens]], [[Linda Lovelace]] under [[Linda Boreman]], [[Billy the
Kid]] under [[William Henry Bonney]], [[Eva Peron]] under [[Mar?a Evita
Durante de Peron]], [[Marilyn Monroe]] under [[Norma Jeane Mortenson]].

It is also more academically correct to use somebody's real name, right? And
it is even /more/ academically correct to use their entire name, isn't it? Oh
yeah, it is also misleading to call an orca a killer whale since they are not
whales and the term "sea lion" is also misleading since these animals have
nothing to do with lions. Rubbish!

Academics also disagree -- which ones do we listen to? Many also prefer
foreign language forms. Should we use those because some academics think so?
Getting rid of the common usage naming convention opens the floodgates to
these type of arguments. By contrast trying to determine common usage is far
easier in most cases.

Abandoning common usage would make it more difficult to directly link to
articles and find them. Above all else the name we choose should be the one
that will attract the largest number of eyes and fill the largest number of
edit links -- without having to deal with redirects.

We are not writing an encyclopedia for academics and specialists, we are
witting an encyclopedia for use by the masses. As such the subjects they look
for should be at page titles that are recognizable by the largest number of
people (with a reasonable minimum amount of ambiguity). But after a title has
served its /one and only/ purpose (to get a person to the correct article),
/then/ we can explain why academics think why the page title is not correct
and then procede, where appropriate, to use what the academics in that field
think is the best term. So in the [[Linda Lovelace]] article her real last
name 'Boreman' is used, and in the [[Billy the Kid]] article 'Bonney' is used
(although it is not certain whether that is correct though), and in [[Occam's
razor]] we use Ockham's razor.

Page titles should reflect common usage in order to ensure our content is
exposed to the largest possible audience. But once the person has the article
in front of them /then/ we educate them as to why some academics think the
common usage is not correct along with whatever else the article has to say.

So instead of hitting people over the head that are wrong by placing the
article at the academically correct title (giving them a jolt of surprise
when they are redirected from a title they know to a title they don't), we
allow them to land at the page title they know and then gently explain why
academics think the commonly used form is incorrect.

We are also not working with a static set of articles here and each article's
title serves as an example of our naming conventions to newbies. And one
thing I've noticed is that, in general, newbies don't know about or care to
use redirects.

So how about we support the naming convention, that if followed by reading the
naming convention or looking at examples, /naturally/ is the one that a new
contributor is most likely to use when creating a new page? People look for
things by the titles they already know - let's continue to follow this
natural tendency and not work against it, shall we?

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma:
[[February 3]] and all year pages linked from there and many of the other
articles.


from_name: M Carling

body:
Good idea.  I agree completely.

M Carling

On 9 Feb 2003, Erik Moeller wrote:

> I think we need to change our naming convention to use the more correct
> article title if everybody who knows the history of the term in question
> agrees that it is correct; that is, if everybody who has a coherent POV on
> the matter shares the same opinion. In other words, we should use
> academically correct titles, not those which Google prefers.
>
> Examples:
>
> 1) Ockham's Razor should not reside at Occam's Razor (Occam is the
> latinization of the town name Ockham; the town still exists today).
>
> 2) Pennsylvania Dutch should be at Pennsylvania German (it is not Dutch at
> all; the word is merely a corruption of "Deutsch" or "D?tsch").
>
> As I wrote on [[Talk:Pennsylvania Dutch]]:
>
> Regarding the title, I agree this should be under Pennsylvania German.
> This is a case where a redirect makes perfect sense. I support anglicized
> article titles, but I do not support using an obviously inccorect title
> because it is more popular among the uninformed. It is not POV for us to
> assert that "Pennsylvania German" is correct if there's nobody who
> disagrees, based on factual arguments and not mere habit, with that
> statement. This "Dutch" has nothing to do with Dutch.
>
> [...]
>
> Linkability is not an argument: People are already linking to this article
> using [[Pennsylvania German|Pennsylvania Dutch]], because obviously they
> do not want to use the corrupt form. Searchability is neither, since
> redirects show up in searches. Google-ability is only slightly reduced,
> since "Pennsylvania Dutch" would still be mentioned in the article body.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Jonathan Walther

body:
On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 07:14:53PM -0800, Zoe wrote:
>   Nastiness doesn't get you anywhere, Clutch.  A quick Google search found
>   http://druidry.org/obod/druid-path/celts_saxons.html which said, in part,
>   "The ancient Germans and Celts had many things in common so culturally it
>   might be more correct to group them all together as Northwest Europeans
>   rather than separate them politically".  How much research have you done
>   on the issue?  Germanii were only one tribe, anyway, weren't they?

No.  Linguistically the Celts and Germanii were very different.  In
fact, there is evidence that the Germanii were originally a tribe of
Persians who lived near the Black sea at the time of Cyrus.  A couple
hundred years after Romes first contact with them, the name Germanii had
become used by the Germans themselves to describe all the tribes that
shared the same language, religion, and heritage.  Before that, Germanii
did only refer to one particular tribe of Germans (around 200BC).  The
only thing the Celts and Germans had in common was living in Northern
European, and having white skin.  Religiously, ethnically, culturally,
they were very different.  Where the Celts cultivated the ground, the
Germans were foragers.

Because of the interbreeding that has happened in North America in the
past couple hundred years, many people don't understand the differences
that once existed between these two groups, and easily make the mistake
of thinking they were just close branches of one big "Euro-American"
family.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 307 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030209/025ee429/attachment.pgp


body:
On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 10:35:33PM -0500, Tom Parmenter wrote:
>Of course, that was a contribution to the mailing list, not the
>Wikipedia, but I did look it up first.  The Oxford English Dictionary
>and Grimm are a little bit more reliable than Tacitus for the meaning
>of words, don't you think?  And, of course, Latin picked up words from
>other languages, such as Celtic.  Tacitus may have been right, but I
>did not make it up.  Why would I have done that?

Tacitus was "on the ground" so to speak. He referenced his sources, and
did a lot of legwork.  He is the closest thing to a reliable, first-hand
witness we have.  I don't care to spend a lot of time debunking modern
historical revisionists who have political axes to grind.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 307 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030209/ee441424/attachment.pgp


subject: [Wikipedia-l] blocking:

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
>Check the link color. If it's a new user,
>the user page and/or talk page link is
>likely to be red (non-existent). We should
>store the user creation date in the user table
>and provide that information on the user
>page, though.

Many of these don't stay red for long since I greet users and create blank
user pages for them usually within 48 hours of them appearing on Recent
Changes.

<dreaming>
It would be very nice to have a manual 'Watch this user' option that would
work similarly to 'Watch this page'. Then it would be possible to flag
troublesome users. The user name/IP of a flagged user would show up bold on
Recent Changes. It would also be neat to be able (via a user preference) to
automatically have new users flagged in Recent Changes (maybe even be able to
customize the "newbiness" threshold similar to the way the stub detector
works - there could also be a timeout whereby if a user or IP hasn't made an
edit in x months then they are considered to be a newbie again).

We could even have an 'Ignore this user' option where ignored users and their
edits would not be shown in RC. But I am a bit uncomfortable with that idea.
</dreaming>

--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
Added many events to [[February 4]]; updated all year pages and many other
articles linked from there.


from_name: Axel Boldt

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> I think we need to change our naming convention to use the more
correct
> article title if everybody who knows the history of the term in
question
> agrees that it is correct; that is, if everybody who has a coherent
POV on the matter shares the same opinion. In other words, we should
use
> academically correct titles, not those which Google prefers.

I agree. Two reasons:

* The text of our articles always aims for correctness as recognized by
those who know what they're talking about, not for "correctness" as
recognized by the majority of the people. The same should apply to
article titles.

* We're here to educate, not to provide people with the warm and fuzzy
feeling that comes from reading something familiar. For retaining
memory, there's nothing better than a healthy shock. You follow a link
to X and end up on page Y, how is that possible? Shock! Confusion!
Immediately you investigate and the article gives the answer, right
there in the second paragraph. You're not going to forget that one
easily.

Axel

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jan Hidders

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Blocked another leech

body:
There is an Apache module for that:

  http://dominia.org/djao/limitipconn.html

-- Jan Hidders


in_reply_to:
<20030210030248.GB10674@reactor-core.org> (message from Jonathan
	Walther on Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:02:48 -0800)

body:
|From: Jonathan Walther <krooger at debian.org>
|Content-Disposition: inline
|Sender: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:02:48 -0800
|
|
|--K8nIJk4ghYZn606h
|Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
|Content-Disposition: inline
|Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
|
|On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 08:38:54PM -0500, Tom Parmenter wrote:
|>
|>Of course, "German" is no more Deutsch (or Dietsch) than "Dutch" is.
|>"Dutch" is at least cognate with what they call themselves in their
|>own language, whereas "German" is is a Celtic name that has never been
|>used by any of the many Teutonic peoples.
|
|According to Tacitus, 2000 years ago they were calling themselves
|something cognate with "Germanii", which was the Roman word for them.
|How did German suddenly become a "Celtic" word?  What research can you
|show to back up that assertion?  How can I trust other information you
|add to Wikipedia articles if it has a similar amount of research behind
|it?
|
|Jonathan
|
|

Hi there, Jonathon,

Of course, that was a contribution to the mailing list, not the
Wikipedia, but I did look it up first.  The Oxford English Dictionary
and Grimm are a little bit more reliable than Tacitus for the meaning
of words, don't you think?  And, of course, Latin picked up words from
other languages, such as Celtic.  Tacitus may have been right, but I
did not make it up.  Why would I have done that?

So, here you go (from OED):

     German, a.2 and n.2 Also germayne, germaine, germane.
     [ad. L. German-us, used, as adj. and n., as the designation of
     persons belonging to a group of related peoples inhabiting
     central and northern Europe, and speaking the dialects from which
     the "Germanic" or "Teutonic" languages have been developed.  The
     name does not appear to have been applied to these peoples by
     themselves, or to be explicable from Teut. sources. A view widely
     held is that it was the name given by the Gauls to their
     neighbours; the Celtic derivations suggested are from OIr. "gair"
     neighbour (Zeuss) and from Irish "gairm" battle-cry (Wachter,
     Grimm). According to Muellenhoff, "Germani" was originally the
     name of a group of Celtic peoples in north-eastern Gaul, was
     transferred from these to their Teutonic conquerors, and
     afterwards extended to all the Teutonic peoples.]

     <snip bit about pronuciation that wouldn't render in ascii>

     In English use the word does not occur until the 16th c., the
     n. appearing in our quots. earlier than the adj. The older
     designations were Almain and Dutch (Dutchman); the latter,
     however, was wider in meaning.

Note also that "Dutch" for the language and people is older than
"German", harking back to the original discussion.

Hoping this finds you well, I remain,

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
I think we need to change our naming convention to use the more correct
article title if everybody who knows the history of the term in question
agrees that it is correct; that is, if everybody who has a coherent POV on
the matter shares the same opinion. In other words, we should use
academically correct titles, not those which Google prefers.

Examples:

1) Ockham's Razor should not reside at Occam's Razor (Occam is the
latinization of the town name Ockham; the town still exists today).

2) Pennsylvania Dutch should be at Pennsylvania German (it is not Dutch at
all; the word is merely a corruption of "Deutsch" or "D?tsch").

As I wrote on [[Talk:Pennsylvania Dutch]]:

Regarding the title, I agree this should be under Pennsylvania German.
This is a case where a redirect makes perfect sense. I support anglicized
article titles, but I do not support using an obviously inccorect title
because it is more popular among the uninformed. It is not POV for us to
assert that "Pennsylvania German" is correct if there's nobody who
disagrees, based on factual arguments and not mere habit, with that
statement. This "Dutch" has nothing to do with Dutch.

[...]

Linkability is not an argument: People are already linking to this article
using [[Pennsylvania German|Pennsylvania Dutch]], because obviously they
do not want to use the corrupt form. Searchability is neither, since
redirects show up in searches. Google-ability is only slightly reduced,
since "Pennsylvania Dutch" would still be mentioned in the article body.


body:
> On dim, 2003-02-09 at 13:47, Erik Moeller wrote:
>> Linkability is not an argument: People are already linking to this article
>> using [[Pennsylvania German|Pennsylvania Dutch]], because obviously they
>> do not want to use the corrupt form. Searchability is neither, since
>> redirects show up in searches.

> On the contrary, that shows that people *do* want to use the corrupt
> form, else they would be changing the links to [[Pennsylvania German]]
> and letting the technically correct form appear in the text.

Sorry, my example was incorrect. I meant [[Pennsylvania Dutch|Pennsylvania
German]]. I always get confused with the direction -- that's why I think
the syntax should be [[foo->bar]], not [[bar|foo]].

> What it does show is that people have an aversion to linking to
> redirects.

Indeed.


body:
>>> What it does show is that people have an aversion to linking to
>>> redirects.
>>
>> Indeed.

> Lord knows why; that's what they're *there* for.

The main problem are double redirects; especially with titles that are
under dispute, people prefer to link to the current version. This is
perfectly reasonable. In any case, if we can choose an article title that
is both more likely to be used in other articles and academically correct,
I think it's obvious we should do it.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Offline reader

body:
I have a preliminary version of the promised offline reader with parser
working. Some issues:

* The parser is basically single-pass. I do an additional pass for the
<nowiki> elements, though.
* The parser already supports all wiki syntax, except <math>.
* It doesn't check for correct HTML, though.
* I am only using the article namespace. All other namespaces are linked
to the online version, with a different color.
* No images yet, but basically because I didn't bother with the download ;-)
* There's also a function that converts the database dump into many
files, one per article. This would be run on the "vendor" side.

I have tried the German database, and it works pretty well. I am a
little worried about the wxWindows HTML component, though. One thing it
doesn't support are HTML entities like "Ӓ", which I automatically
replace with a "?".

There's no search function yet, and no fulltext index is created. But,
that shouldn't take a lot of work, compared with the parser.

I can mail a Windows .exe (~600 KB zipped) to anyone who'd like, and a
howto for converting the mysql dump.

Tomorrow.

Magnus


body:
> The current policy is the healthier one. Wikipedia should by and large
> reflect the common consensus, at least on a zero-order approximation, not
> try to enforce the "correct" view

There's no reason to put correct in quotation marks here if nobody
disagrees other than by mere habit. And if that is so, it is proper for an
encyclopedia to use the correct term. That's why the Britannica uses
"Ockham's Razor". Using the Google popularity test for article titles is
unprofessional.

To pick an analogy: Based on Hollywood and TV movies, many people believe
that cars will explode after a heavy crash, which often leads them to
escape the vehicles quickly instead of trying to save others who are still
in them. Wikipedia will correctly point out that it is an error, because
there is nobody who factually disagrees with it.

> For example, I know about the term "Pennsylvania Dutch" and have seen it
> used in many contexts (social, political, commercial branding, etc.) whereas
> "Pennsylvania German" is just not a term in use.

Try googling for it.

> Similarly, "Occam's Razor" is by far the more prevalent and *preferred*
> spelling for the term by English speakers.

16K vs 26K in Google - hardly "by far" the more prevalent and preferred.
What matters is not just the number of sites, but also the type of sites.


from_name: Pedro M.V.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] www front page

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Smith" <msochuck at yahoo.com>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:24 AM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] www front page

After reading the latest arguments about automatic
redirects and such from www.wikipedia.org, I just want
to emphasize that I want it to be a simple
choose-your-language page,

This a problem, because, somebody cannot understand "choose your language".

Automatic redirection solves this problem, transporting you to your language frontpage.

Later, in this page you can choose, using the language you understand, go to another page of a language you speak too, like or understand.

Regards.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:  ips for usernames

body:
> Instead of ban, one could make a Prevent Suspension. The user could read,
> but not change the articles.

This is the way it currently works; a banned user can still read.

Regards,

Erik


body:
> I agree. In this particular case, we're not dealing with a long-dead
> philosopher: we're dealing with the language of a thriving community. The
> question is, or should be, _what terms do they use_? In particular, what
> terms do they use when they're speaking English? (In Pennsylvania Dutch, I
> suspect they call it "Deutsch".) Certainly, the region is called the
> Pennsylvania Dutch Country, not the Pennsylvania German Country. Googling
> won't get you this one--the Amish avoid the Internet.

User Someone_else suggested a good compromise in this case; referring to
the language as "Pennsylvania German" and to the people as "Pennsylvania
Dutch". The articles could be split up if either treatment gets too long.

When dealing with the name of a people, it is proper to go by popularity
alone. When dealing with a language (or, like Occam's Razor, a
philosophical concept), the opinions of scholars must weigh more than the
Google count alone.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia scheduled downtime tonight

body:
On dim, 2003-02-09 at 12:57, Brion Vibber wrote:
> The English-language Wikipedia will be in _read-only mode_ for a few
> hours tonight (Feb 9->Feb 10) while the database structure is altered to
> eliminate some of the remaining performance drags before the heavy
> weekday traffic gets into full swing.
>
> This will also fix the out-of-order page history bug, which was caused
> by a temporary workaround to the slow history problem.
>
> The downtime window will cover roughly 04:00-08:00 UTC (UK time). For us
> USians, that's 8pm-midnight PST / 11pm-3am EST. Australians & others,
> please check http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone for the appropriate
> offset to your local time. (I'm not certain of the end time; it may run
> shorter, and hopefully won't run longer. It's a big database, and mass
> modifications take a *long* time.)

Will run a while longer; my initial estimate left out doing a backup run
first, which itself is rather slow. My apologies...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030210/2839cb22/attachment.pgp


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia scheduled downtime tonight

body:
On dim, 2003-02-09 at 12:57, Brion Vibber wrote:
> The English-language Wikipedia will be in _read-only mode_ for a few
> hours tonight (Feb 9->Feb 10) while the database structure is altered to
> eliminate some of the remaining performance drags before the heavy
> weekday traffic gets into full swing.
>
> This will also fix the out-of-order page history bug, which was caused
> by a temporary workaround to the slow history problem.
>
> The downtime window will cover roughly 04:00-08:00 UTC (UK time). For us
> USians, that's 8pm-midnight PST / 11pm-3am EST. Australians & others,
> please check http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone for the appropriate
> offset to your local time. (I'm not certain of the end time; it may run
> shorter, and hopefully won't run longer. It's a big database, and mass
> modifications take a *long* time.)

Will run a while longer; my initial estimate left out doing a backup run
first, which itself is rather slow. My apologies...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20030210/2839cb22/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:  ips for usernames

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:02 AM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: ips for usernames

> On Saturday 08 February 2003 12:35 pm, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > It sometimes happens that true vandals login.  I give as an example
> > Annetit on the [[Woman]] article.  If this person was posting from an
> > ip number, instead of a username, they would have been promptly and
> > justly banned immediately.
> >
Instead of ban, one could make a Prevent Suspension. The user could read, but not change the articles.

Late, the list could deciede.

But this is for important infractions.

Regards.


body:
Zoe-
> So then you're in favor of moving Christopher Columbus to Cristobal Colon,

No, because that name is used neither by scholars nor the public. As I
wrote, I am not opposed to anglicization, and anglicization is by itself
not unscientific. (There are reasonable arguments that can be made against
it in the case of European languages, but I do not subscribe to those
arguments.) If there exist two different English terms, however, the one
which is correct should in most cases be used, provided it has already
been adopted by scholars.

Regardless, we have found a compromise for the Pennsylvania article, so I
will no longer use it as an example. Ockham's Razor, on the other hand,
should be moved to that title. Using "Occam's Razor" in the title and
"Ockham's Razor" in the text is just plain silly.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] problem with courtesy titles

body:
A problem has cropped up over titles, specifically COURTESY TITLES on Wiki.
While standard titles relating to peerages can be ignored because there is
an alternative (the holder will have a name and surname), courtesy titles
(ie, titles possessed by someone related to a peer; son, daughter, wife,
etc) are usually treated as PART OF A NAME in common usage, given that they
are attached to the name. Which means Wiki's policy of dropping titles like
'Lord', 'Lady' etc is producing unrecognisable names that users find hard to
follow. I thought there was just one or two, but others have been pointing
out more and more examples.

Examples:
Lord John Russell (UK PM in the 1840s) is down as JOHN RUSSELL,  a name 100%
of people studying english history would not recognise. Leaving out the lord
bit is the equivalent in terms of recognition of turning 'William Jefferson
Clinton' to 'Jefferson Clinton' and then wondering why no-one knows would
recognise who is being written about.

Lady Jane Grey is down as JANE GREY, again a name never ever used without
'Lady'.

Lady Gregory or Lady Augusta Gregory (founder of Dublin's Abbey Theatre) is
down as AUGUSTA GREGORY, a rarely used variation on her name. Most history
books simply say 'Lady Gregory'.

Lady Caroline Lamb is down as CAROLINE LAMB.

Lady Diana Spencer was down as DIANA SPENCER. (Someone has changed her name
to another variation).

The trouble in these cases with simply on an ad hoc basis using the 'lord'
or 'lady' is that someone else will come along, say Wiki doesn't use titles,
and remove it, leading to edit wars over how Wiki should refer to these and
others.  Quite a few people at this stage have said they are uncomfortable
having to use a version of the name minus the courtesy title that to them
makes no sense and makes it more difficult to follow. Even people who in
general remove such titles have said the Wiki policy in this area needs to
be clarified and made more user-friendly and logical.

After a lot of consultation (here and on various pages) we reached a
consensus on how to use royal nomenclatures. This is one of the remaining
glitches to be worked out.

The best solution here might be to say on the naming convention page:

OTHER THAN IN THE CASE OF ROYALTY, AVOID USING PEERAGE TITLES (eg, Earl of
Ardbraccan) OR HONOURS ('Sir') IN THE TITLES OF ARTICLES. INSTEAD USE THE
PERSON'S NAME AND SURNAME.

HOWEVER, IN THE CASE OF COURTESY TITLES (ie, titles attached to a person's
name and surname by virtue of they being a son, daughter, wife, etc of a
peer) IT IS ACCEPTABLE TO USE THE TITLE WHERE THE IDENTITY OF A PERSON MAY
BE UNCLEAR WITHOUT IT.

FOR EXAMPLE:
Lord John Russell, rather than John Russell
Lady Augusta Gregory, rather than Augusta Gregory
Lady Jane Grey, rather than Jane Grey
Lady Diana Spencer, rather than Diana Spencer

IF IN DOUBT, ASK FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS ON THE NAMING CONVENTIONS TALK
PAGE.

Any observations?

JT

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Temporally save

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Saintonge" <saintonge at telus.net>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Temporally save

Pedro M.V. wrote:

>
>I'm familiar with that problem, and it can be very annoying in every
language, especially if your edits have been long or complicated.  My
experience has been that when I get such a message, it is still there
later if I use the reload button, but it is destroyed completely if I
use the back button.  Pedro's idea is a constructive one but the buttons
are part of one's browser and not of Wikipedia.

Finally, somebody understand my problem. THANK you a lot ;)

I am sure in the future W3C will include some wikipedia tags and uses in the web standards, like X-forms or similar  ( and browser will have to include it to be standard).

Regards ;)


subject: [Wikitech-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthere" <anthere5 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

--- "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar> wrote:

>From what I understood, the pb was not one user using
several ips, but several users using an undetermine
number of ips...

Perhaps, more visited articles would need recieve more protection. I don?t know how. Perhaps, one day delay when edited to see the aditions in the body of the article ( upto them, one can see in a special part of the page in a different colour ).

This only would work for the most important and visited articles.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Donations?

body:
This wouldn?t  be possible. Frontpage ( with search box ) perhaps, but not the articles themselves. The encyclopedia would be for all the portals and search machines that would join ( Altavista, Lycos, and so on ).

Regards.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthere" <anthere5 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Donations?

>
> --- "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar> wrote:
> > What about include wikipedia in portals to recieve
> > money to mantain the servers ???
> > Yahoo, i.e., could include an encyclopedia (
> > wikipedia ) in the portal.
> > Regards.
>
> Good idea, but likely Yahoo would "require" the
> article on Yahoo to be dithyrambic...
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] ips for usernames

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 1:43 PM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] ips for usernames

> It sometimes happens that true vandals login.  I give as an example
> Annetit on the [[Woman]] article.  If this person was posting from an
> ip number, instead of a username, they would have been promptly and
> justly banned immediately.
>
> It would be nice if sysops could just as easily obtain and ban the ip
> number for a username.
>
This is would I named the "Ip search tool".

The decission it?s "political", to say that way..

Regards.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Maps

body:
Very interesting feature. Thank you i am going to test it.

Regards.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at epost.de>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:57 AM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Maps

> I have implemented a map link demo at
>
>     http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_testing
>
> This consists of about 10 lines of source code :-)
>
> Format is [[map:laltitude:longitude]] or
> [[map:laltitude:longitude:zoom]]; if zoom is omitted, a default of 5 is
> used.
>
> It can be switched to wiki-internal maps, once we have some. For the
> discussion about formats and stuff, see
>
>     http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipediatlas
>
> Magnus
>
> P.S.: I can't access sourceforge.net from the wikipedia server command
> line anymore, so I can't check in these changes myself.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Maps

body:
The problem it?s obtain the coordinates

"We have received requests from users who would like to type in an address and view the latitude/longitude coordinate. Due to contractual limitations, we are only able to display latitude/longitude coordinates provided by users."

So, where can one find his/her city coordinates ???. I will try with spanish state geographical institute, region and so on and perhaps with a GPS user.

But, is there a more easy ( web ) solution ??.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at epost.de>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:57 AM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Maps

> I have implemented a map link demo at
>
>     http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_testing
>
> This consists of about 10 lines of source code :-)
>
> Format is [[map:laltitude:longitude]] or
> [[map:laltitude:longitude:zoom]]; if zoom is omitted, a default of 5 is
> used.
>
> It can be switched to wiki-internal maps, once we have some. For the
> discussion about formats and stuff, see
>
>     http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipediatlas
>
> Magnus
>
> P.S.: I can't access sourceforge.net from the wikipedia server command
> line anymore, so I can't check in these changes myself.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Acronyms

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Parmenter" <tompar at world.std.com>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Cc: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Acronyms

> |From: "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar>
> |Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 05:04:35 +0100
> ||
> |We need in wikipedia free     http://www.acronymfinder.com/
> |
> |Regards.
> |
>
> Seems to be marketing for Amazon books.  I searched on ILO, it gave me
> a bunch of expansions, such as "International Labor Organizaton" and
> "In Lieu Of", each with a button that led to the results of an Amazon
> search using the expanded term as keywords.  Clever, but too
> commercial for us, don't you think?
>
For sure. We could use [[acron:ILO]] and in the wikipedia [[ILO]] include :

- International Labor Organizaton and so on.

No commercial ( external ) links need in our wikipedia.

Could be included more acronyms like IMHO and so on.

Regards.


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] Banning signed in users

in_reply_to: <8fSOMEMSpVB@erik_moeller>; from erik_moeller@gmx.de on Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 05:29:00PM +0100

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> 3) If you try to ban a signed in user, the CUR and OLD table are
> queried to check whether that user has made any edits that are older
> than 14 days 4) If this is the case, the user is not banned and a
> warning message is displayed. Otherwise, the user is banned.

This is a pretty neat solution.

This is one of those cases (and there are several) where the software
doesn't match (and probably can't match exactly) our actual policy.

Our *actual* policy is that simple trolls, like the MIT troll this
weekend, are bannable on sight, while people who are still bannable
but not "simple trolls" require a longer procedure that, at present,
comes down to me making a decision.

We implement this policy, mostly for historical reasons, by assuming
that ip numbers correlate with simple trolls while people who need to
be banned only after a procedure will have a username.

Saturday morning was really the first time that a persistent simple
troll started jumping ips and usernames.  It was sheer luck that I
happened to login when I did.

The only risk that Erik's proposal runs is that it, too, does not
represent our actual policy.  It makes it seem as though it's "open
season" on anyone who has been around for under 14 days.  But really
the actual policy hasn't been changed... "simple trolls" can be banned
as always, while people who are bannable but not simple trolls should
be contained until we have a chance to talk about it.

And that's a judgment call, of course.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] ips for usernames

in_reply_to: <shhebeg21s.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>; from keichwa@gmx.net on Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 05:38:55PM +0100

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> > So, ideas?
>
> Sure :)  Do not ban at all and the problem will vanish.
>
> Instead try to identify the attackers and take appropriate actions.
> Yes, that's easy said but it's the only way to make this world a better
> world.

I'm not sure what you mean.  What "appropriate actions" do you
recommend?

In an emergency situation, like the one we faced on Saturday morning,
it's unrealistic to hope that we can find and get a sysop on the other
end to take action.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] blocking:

body:
> Perhaps an N by a username on the recent changes page can denote a new
> username: thus helping people figure out anons who log in for a one-shot go
> at things. -Stevertigo

Check the link color. If it's a new user, the user page and/or talk page
link is likely to be red (non-existent). We should store the user creation
date in the user table and provide that information on the user page,
though.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
Sheldon Rampton wrote:
> As I stated in a previous post, I think it would help if Wikipedia's
> tech people could work on some enhanced security features. We can
> debate the details, but I think they should include:
>
> (1) Flexibility on the part of the administrator (Jimbo).

I agree with Sheldon that it would help if Wikipedia's tech people
could work on my flexibility.  Having a 2 year old asking me to do
various tricks that she can do makes me realize how badly my
flexibility has declined in recent years.  ;-)

Just kidding...

> If there
> are no vandals currently active, the current laissez-faire system
> works fine. When there's a pest afoot, however, Jimbo should be able
> to temporarily turn on additional security features, such as giving
> sysops added powers.

My general feeling is that the wiki model of trust (trust everyone as
much as you can) suggests that whatever additional features we develop
can be trusted to sysops all the time.  We just agree not to use them
except when absolutely necessary.

> (2) The ability to temporarily restrict contributions from
> non-registered users.

For this Saturday's problem, this would not have helped at all.  The
MIT vandal was logging in over and over, from different machines.
There was just enough time lag that I think he was hopping from one
machine to another in a lab.  I think at one point, he moved from one
lab to another, although it's hard to say exactly.

> (3) The ability to create some kind of registration barrier that
> will make it harder for vandals to get back in the door immediately
> by simply registering under a new name.

*nod*

> (4) The ability to push a button that will instantly send one million
> megavolts coursing through the body of Ed Poor. (Just joking.)

I've already got that one installed.  It came with Phase II.  In phase
III, we hooked up *two* million megavolts to *you*.  I just haven't
used it yet.  ;-)

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

in_reply_to: <8fSOR$2xpVB@erik_moeller>; from erik_moeller@gmx.de on Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 09:54:00PM +0100

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Any solution that depends on Jimbo being present is IMHO
> flawed. Jimbo is usually logged off on the weekends, for example.

I agree with this.

At this point, we're not talking about *policy* per se.  Policy on
simple vandals very much empowered the sysops to ban the MIT vandal,
it's just that a technical limitation made it impossible.  The wiki
model of trust means that sysops can ban simple vandals without even
talking to me about it -- this happens all the time -- but that bans
of people who are not *just* simple vandals requires a discussion
point.

This is a check on our power (all of us, even me), to prevent the
temptation to ban people for political disagreements.

> We already have that - IP blocking. We never had a vandal that could
> switch IPs faster than we could block them. What would be nice is
> wildcard support at least for the fourth octet.

This would have been helpful this weekend.  Obviously, wildcard
blocked ips should be restored to use more rapidly than single ips,
because they are much more likely to negatively impact legitimate
users.

> We should also have account
> creation per IP throttling.

That's a good idea, too, but in this *particular* case it would not
have helped.  The MIT vandal was hopping ips fairly quickly.

But a fourth octet wildcard would generally knock out an entire
computer lab or coffee shop no problem.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
Zoe wrote:
> If you let Lir back, I'd like to be a sysop.  I've avoided asking
>for the authority before, even though some people have encouraged me
>to do it.

As a side note, unrelated to Lir, I think it is unfortunate that
people have come to the idea that being a sysop is a big enough deal
that it's the sort of thing that one might want to avoid asking for.

Sysop is supposed to be just a technical matter.  The sysop is given
powers that are limited in nature, to be used solely to combat simple
vandals and to execute some commands that are a bit complex and hard
to reverse.

I see that there's a lot of discussion about Zoe's comments here, so I
won't weigh in until I've read all of that.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
> That's not what it means. It just means that we (sysops) need to
> separate our editing from our adminning/sysop work. If I think an
> article needs protection from vandals, _I stop editing it
> myself_. This is to avoid the temptation to use sysop powers
> unfairly in an edit war.

That's very well said.

As for me, since I get to be the "heavy" at the end of the day, I find
myself uncomfortable editing at all.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
Jonathan Walther wrote:
> In practice, it amounts to that. I have seen Eric and Ortolan and
> some others attack Ed Poor when he appropriately protected a page to
> stop an edit war, when he had recently been involved in editing that
> page himself.

There will always be the possibility of "judgment calls" where sysops
question each other.  These need never turn into heated arguments
unless there's some kind of ongoing problem.

As general wisdom on edit wars, I recommend that people sometimes (not
always, it depends on the circumstances, and different people will
judge things differently at times)... that people sometimes let the
other person "win" for now.  Just drop the debate, and come back to
the page tomorrow.  Maybe the other person will be gone then.  Maybe
they will have a change of heart by then.  Maybe you'll think of a way
to make the article NPOV *and* satisfy their concerns.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
Jonathan Walther wrote:
> I suggest that Zoe can be Lir's mentor;

*laugh* Well, I wouldn't want to do that to Zoe under *any*
circumstances.

--Jimbo


in_reply_to: <8fWOfjbhpVB@erik_moeller>; from erik_moeller@gmx.de on Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 11:36:00PM +0100

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
>> "Pennsylvania German" is just not a term in use.
>
> Try googling for it.

"Pennsylvania German" returns 17,200.
"Pennsylvania Dutch"  returns 64,800.

> What matters is not just the number of sites, but also the type of
>sites.

That's right, I think.

I don't personally think that there is any *simple* rule we can use
like "Always trust Google counts" or "Always trust Britannica" or
"Always trust academics" or "Always trust the dictionary" or "Never
use fancy letters with diacriticals".  Each of those things counts as
a _factor_ in determining what we should prefer, and none of them will
always trump the others.

If all that Erik is saying is that there are cases where "academically
correct" should trump "popular usage" then I would agree.  But there
are lots of cases where "popular usage" should trump "academically
correct".

In this case, it is possible that [[Pennsylvania Dutch]] should be an
article that starts off by pointing out that it's a popular but
inaccurate term, pointing people to [[Pennsylvania German]] for an
actual history of the people, culture, etc.  And then the rest of the
page could be a history of the _term_.

But I don't think any simple rule is possible.

--Jimbo


body:
Jonathan Walther wrote:
> Look, English isn't your native language; I wish you would stop showing
> disrespect for the common linguistic heritage of those for who it IS
> their first, and usually ONLY language.

?  I saw no disrespect.  He has a point.  I'm not sure I go with him
all the way, but there *is* an important point here.

--Jimbo


in_reply_to: <8fWOhLVhpVB@erik_moeller>; from erik_moeller@gmx.de on Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 11:56:00PM +0100

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> When dealing with the name of a people, it is proper to go by
> popularity alone. When dealing with a language (or, like Occam's
> Razor, a philosophical concept), the opinions of scholars must weigh
> more than the Google count alone.

I would add that these "rules" _tend to be true_ (maybe), but that it
does depend on the particular case.  I would say that when dealing
with the name of a people, popularity is a strong factor, but also
what they call *themselves* is a strong factor.  How hard it is to
spell, how likely the "correct" term is to become popular in the near
future, etc., all of these can be taken into consideration.

--Jimbo


body:
On lun, 2003-02-10 at 00:01, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Will run a while longer; my initial estimate left out doing a backup run
> first, which itself is rather slow. My apologies...

Well, if the damn thing ever finishes (which it had damn well better in
the next hour or so), it should automatically kick back into read-write
mode.

(I suspect there are still some tweaks to the database configuration we
could make that would make these overhauls run a lot faster...)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030210/7e41506f/attachment.pgp


body:
Done!

Sheesh.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030210/327dd499/attachment.pgp


body:
If it came to a choice, I'd pick Zoe over Lir any day, in terms of quality
of contributions to Wiki. I've only been here a few months and Lir seems to
have become a walking (or typing) landline, ready to go off anywhere at any
time, leaving wreckage in his/her wake.

JT.

>From: Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #123 - 15 msgs
>Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 23:20:43 -0800 (PST)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Received: from www.wikipedia.org ([130.94.122.197]) by
>mc9-f24.bay6.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 7 Feb
>2003 23:21:28 -0800
>Received: from www.wikipedia.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by
>www.wikipedia.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h187J3r07029;Sat, 8 Feb
>2003 07:19:03 GMT
>Received: from web40906.mail.yahoo.com (web40906.mail.yahoo.com
>[66.218.78.203])by www.wikipedia.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id
>h187Idr07015for <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 07:18:39 GMT
>Received: from [165.121.119.142] by web40906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri,
>07 Feb 2003 23:20:43 PST
>X-Message-Info: dHZMQeBBv44lPE7o4B5bAg==
>Message-ID: <20030208072043.49561.qmail at web40906.mail.yahoo.com>
>In-Reply-To: <3E4405AD.2050203 at snacksoft.com>
>Sender: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
>Errors-To: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
>X-BeenThere: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13
>Precedence: bulk
>List-Help: <mailto:wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org?subject=help>
>List-Post: <mailto:wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>List-Subscribe:
><http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>,<mailto:wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>List-Id: Discussion list for English-language Wikipedia
><wikien-l.wikipedia.org>
>List-Unsubscribe:
><http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>,<mailto:wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>List-Archive: <http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/>
>Return-Path: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2003 07:21:28.0578 (UTC)
>FILETIME=[B249FE20:01C2CF42]
>
>
>Fine.  Goodbye.  I'm obviously not wanted here.
>Zoe
>
>  Jesse Alter <jesse at snacksoft.com> wrote:Apparently, the issue with Lir is
>a bit deeper than I thought, and I do
>side with some of the people offended by her--some of the comments were
>sharp and a bit 'unladylike' (for the record, I think men and women
>should both behave 'ladylike' in polite company). But one of the things
>that really got me was where Zoe said she would leave if Lir was
>unbanned and 'continued his usual obnoxiousness'. That's not cool. Now
>you're adding some more emotion to the admin's decisions. Now they must
>worry if it is worthwhile to add Lir if they'd be losing you, and that's
>really unfair. The decision should be made based on whether the admins
>feel it would help Wikipedia, overall.
>
>/
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


subject: [Wikitech-l] Slow query log

body:
On dim, 2003-02-09 at 19:23, Brion Vibber wrote:
> I've managed to catch it in the act; attached are two snapshots of "SHOW
> PROCESSLIST" taken about 45 seconds apart.  A whooole bunch of threads
> are stuck on the user_newtalk query in "Statistics" state; after about a
> minute they fall apart and there are a bunch of cur queries in "Closing
> tables" and "Opening tables".

The only information I've dragged up so far on the 'statistics' state is
this thread: http://forums.devshed.com/archive/4/2002/11/4/46232

Apparently it's something to do with joins... or indexes... or finding
which indexes which are sometimes relevant to joins... Anyway, I'm not
sure how much benefit an index has on a table with 75 rows and only
constant SELECTs, 99% of which are checking for values that *don't*
appear in the table. I've dumped the indexes on user_newtalk for now,
see what that does...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20030210/eaaa7659/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Front page language

body:
Yes, that's a generally good idea.

Matt M. wrote:

> How about something like this? If you visit www.ndp.ca (my political party's
> website) you will see that it gives you a choice of language. If you visit
> it subsequently, it remembers your choice and sends you to that language
> automatically. Would this be appropriate?
>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l