subject: [Wikitech-l] Bughunt!

body:
Selon Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>:

> At this moment the bug tracker lists 214 open bugs out of 1098 total
> reports; that's an average of about one bug report closed per day since
> we started using it in mid-2002.
>
> A lot of the remaining bug reports are duplicates, or refer to problems
> that have since been fixed. A handful are really feature requests. A
> bunch more are relatively minor problems that just haven't been gotten to...
>
> I'd like to see us cut the open bug reports *in half* to 107 over the
> next week. It may sound like a lot (three months' worth of closings!)
> but I'm confident we can do it; in just the last day JeLuF and I have
> cleared out about 15 bug reports. If we can keep up that rate, we'll
> make the goal easily.
>
> To encourage people to pay more attention to the nasty bugses, I've set
> up a quickie bot that reports updates to bug tracker into the #mediawiki
> IRC channel.

[ 962674 ] Broken images in templates

This one too... by my last patch about | in tamplate parameters.

Emmanuel Engelhart


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Patent nonsense proposal

body:
Pete/Pcb21 wrote:

> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>> My sense of it is that the inconvenience is minor.  The point about
>> libraryies and schools is well-taken, but I don't know (none of us do)
>> how many people would actually be frustrated by that.  The question
>> about what is required of end users is also a valid one, but it seems
>> like nothing to me to download a plug-in... most people do that sort
>> of thing all the time.
>
> Having thrown up the concerns that I did, and listened to the
> responses, I personally now agree we have to go with OGG.
>
> In particular
>
> 1) The OGG for Windows Media Player plug-in site has an "unofficial"
> look about it. We should consider asking permission to host the
> download on our site (with full link backs to authors) to reassure users.
>
> 2) Provide a mechanism for users to give feedback. "Can't play OGG?
> Can't download the plugin?

This is an important point,  Sites with Acrobat files make it very easy
to download the reader, and are not at all stingy about adding the
needed links.  This is even most of us start to believe that surely
everyone must have this program by now.

Outside of the geek world there is bound to be resistance to downloading
yet another program which may be only occasionally useful.  We often end
up with software that we use just once, but has nevertheless insinuated
itself into the start-up file.  This certainly hampers the performance
of computers, especially older ones, and the unskilled user finds it
very difficult to rid himself of useless files.  He has no way of
knowing what files can be safely removed from the start up.

Ideally there should be a single free software program that can decipher
all audio files, including MP3s.  In the meantime, EVERY page with a
link to an OGG files should have a link to download the siftware.

> Please let us know where you are trying to access Wikipedia from
> (home/school/college/etc)" We could then even have a standard form
> letter to send to sysadmins of the school/college in question.

My school district is a suburban one with 38 elementary and 11 secondary
schools, compared to many other school districts its computer inventory
is very good. Kids begin to learn keyboarding skills in the first grade.
  They are very concerned and in my opinion overly cautious about
copyright infringement.  At the same time they are extremely wary about
any kind of free software.  A few years ago they took the position that
all the computers in all the schools should have only software that was
approved and loaded by the district level technical staff.  No
individual school would be allowed to choose and load its own software.

I still believe that individual schools should have more autonomy, but I
can understand where they were coming from.  Very few of the teachers
charged with overseeing the computers in a school had any technical
background at all.  When this was left up to local teachers they were
flooded with maintenance calls arising from incompatible software that
the teachers could not cope with, and that might have knocked out a
series of computers.  Having specally trained district staff going
around to install programs was much more cost effective.  The challenge
is in marketing free software to district systems administrators, and
convincing school boards that this software works just as well as
professionally distributed software with expensive licences for multiple
sites.

> Wikipedia is one of very very few projects where regular Joe User
> comes into contact with the _idea_ of FOSS and free content. We can't
> sit in geek "ivory towers" expecting Mr AOL User to figure it out.
> Those who, like me, have given tech support to the average intelligent
> fifty year old will appreciate just how alien an environment computers
> to them. We go with OGG, and we help people out.

Yes.  Geeks find it difficult to conceive how amazingly unobvious much
of this stuff is.  Help files and FAQs only manage to make the situation
worse.  They invariably answer all the wrong questions.   It is often
easier to flip through a physical book and land at the right page than
looking it up in the index, but much software now comes witnout much of
an instruction book.  In our family I have with my limited knowledge
defaulted into the role of system administrator for computers.  My wife
feels completely lost when something goes wrong with the family
computers, yet where she works (as a bookkeeper) her colleagues consider
her the most capable one for dealing with such things.  Every time she
mentions something that she has had to fix I find it hard to restrain my
laughter.  That crowd for whom she fixes problems is a lot more populous
than computer experts would like to believe.

Ec


from_name: Eric Pierce

subject: [Wikitech-l] Greetings

body:
Hello all! I've finally decided to become a developer,
so I've taken the necessary first step of lurking
around on the mailing list. Not sure yet how much I'll
be able to contribute; I figure I'll brush up on PHP,
get the needed things installed and configured on my
boxen, and go from there. I'm looking forward to
participating.

Eric

=====
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Help preserve the public domain by becoming a Distributed Proofreader. http://www.pgdp.net/

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list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking

body:
Stormie wrote:

> Angela_ wrote:
>
>> Antonio, since you're a sysop you can unblock yourself. Make a note of
>> the IP that is blocked (the message you get when you try to edit will
>> tell you this). Then go to
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist, find that IP and
>> click the "unblock" link next to it.
>>
>> I expect the reason you are blocked is because you share an IP with an
>> AOL vandal.
>
> Well, according to the block log, the reason he was blocked is because
> he shares an IP with his father, who was blocked for "repeatedly
> recreating duplictate article despite repeated requests to stop."

There's something wrong in the tone of that response.  I have not looked
at the article but I do understand that it was a biographical article,
and the dispute was over whether the person's middle name should appear
in the title of the article.  The reference to "repeated requests to
stop" suggests that the person making those requests was operating on
the premise that the existing article was absolutely correct.  What
attempts did that person make to find a compromise solution?

Ec


from_name: Andreas Hoerstemeier

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Bughunt!

body:
Emmanuel Engelhart wrote:
> [ 962674 ] Broken images in templates
>
> This one too... by my last patch about | in tamplate parameters.
Definitely not. Your last patch allows to use template with images a bit
better by providing the full image syntax, yet it fails when the image
tag is compiled at the template.

Thus
{{MyTemplate|image=[[Image:Me.jpg|Me]]}}
works now, but
{{MyTemplate|image=Me}}
with the template having something like
[[Image:{{{image}}}.jpg|{{{image}}}]]
fails - it creates a link to the correct image description, but not to
the image itself. However it may be related with a similar bug for links
to articles (e.g. [[As_of_{{{as_of}}}|{{{as_of}}}]]), dunno if that one
has a sourceforge bug ID.

BTW: I think 963437 is closed as well, that was a duplicate with the one
you fixed. If you could solve the above template bug as well you'll be
my hero - that one together with the pipe problem are the ones I need to
be able to use templates for several infoboxes.

Bye,
    Andy


from_name: N.T. Riche

subject: [WikiEN-l] Where are all the trolls?

body:
I am not sure, but I seriously don't think trolling is a problem.

I have a few question for Rick and Heph and others:

What constitutes trolling?

If so should trolls be banned without a hearing?

Could other users defend a troll without them being called a troll (Like I have)?

Also I understand we are building a encyclopedia...but is there such a thing as Academic freedom on wikipedia (to some extent because i realize this a private project not a public one)?

I don't see trolling to be a problem, I see users that act like vigilantes to be a problem. I've seen some users that claimed to be "free-thinkers" but banned people without a hearing from the Arb. committee. I've seen users that claimed to be Liberals, but where ultra-reactionary in banning practices and are no better than the people they criticize. Now I never once said they're was a "cabal" but what I am saying is that I believe in FREEDOM.

Nick T. Riche Aka User:Plato

Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Perhaps the inability or refusal to deal with this
'problem' is that there really isn't much of a
problem?
Mark

--- Robert Dodier wrote:

> Hephaestos wrote:
>
> > In light of the fact that the Arbitration
> Committee is
> > quite willing to censure me and others for having
> the
> > audacity to do the job they refuse to do, over any
> objections
> > we may have, I don't think they are being taken
> seriously.
> >
> > On the other hand, if I were to change my handle
> to
> > GreezyTroll and start spewing nonsense about
> "cabal" and
> > "GFDL corpus", and inserting "faggot" into every
> other article,
> > I think my objections would be taken quite
> seriously. In the
> > name of "fairness" or somesuch.
>
> Wikipedia is suffering from a classic case of
> looking for
> the house keys under the street light. There is an
> inability,
> or perhaps refusal, to recognize trolling. On the
> other hand,
> it,s very easy to spot admins who are breaking
> rules.
>
> RickK wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but I will continue to do what needs to be
> done,
> > and I hope, Heph, that you will, too.
>
> Hephaestos wrote:
>
> > Why should we, when our help is so clearly not
> wanted?
>
> For the record: -I- want your help. I consider WP a
> serious
> project -- that means the current troll-pandering
> has to stop.
>
> Hephaestos, you rock, and RickK, so do you.
> Keep up the good work.
>
> For what it,s worth --
> Robert Dodier
> (Wile E. Heresiarch)
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
> finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

> My sense of it is that the inconvenience is minor.  The point about
> libraryies and schools is well-taken, but I don't know (none of us do)
> how many people would actually be frustrated by that.  The question
> about what is required of end users is also a valid one, but it seems
> like nothing to me to download a plug-in... most people do that sort
> of thing all the time.
>
> [I wrote]
>>It appears you can _play_ MP3s libreally and gratisly. The difficulty is
>>creating them. Thus as long as the uploader "signs" to say they have
>>done so legally, then the migration path that allows dual formats (even
>>of the same piece) might be an option.
>
>
> I think the situation is worse than that.  I think it is not possible
> for legal free software to even play mp3s.  Am I wrong about that?

Well other posts in this thread indicate that at best, the _threat_ of
patents being enforced against MP3 decoders is very real. At worst, it
is already not possible (though it looks like there are plenty of GPL
programs on sourceforge today offering MP3 playback.

In other words, it would completely against our ethos to put users in
this position.

Having thrown up the concerns that I did, and listened to the responses,
I personally now agree we have to go with OGG. And I think we should be
quite evangelical about it. (Note NPOV applies to articles, not
surrounding meta pages wear we can be POV)

In particular

1) The OGG for Windows Media Player plug-in site has an "unofficial"
look about it. We should consider asking permission to host the download
on our site (with full link backs to authors) to reassure users.

2) Provide a mechanism for users to give feedback. "Can't play OGG?
Can't download the plugin? Please let us know where you are trying to
access Wikipedia from (home/school/college/etc)" We could then even have
a standard form letter to send to sysadmins of the school/college in
question.

Wikipedia is one of very very few projects where regular Joe User comes
into contact with the _idea_ of FOSS and free content. We can't sit in
geek "ivory towers" expecting Mr AOL User to figure it out. Those who,
like me, have given tech support to the average intelligent fifty year
old will appreciate just how alien an environment computers to them. We
go with OGG, and we help people out.

Pete


subject: [WikiEN-l] Where are all the trolls?

body:
I know that but I feel that some blocks need to be looked at by the Arb. Committee, if there's a serious question of Sysop vigilantism

Mark Pellegrini <mapellegrini at comcast.net> wrote: Plato wrote: "I don't see trolling to be a problem, I see users that act like vigilantes to
be a problem. I've seen some users that claimed to be "free-thinkers" but banned
people without a hearing from the Arb. committee."

You seem to be operating under the misconception that every block requires an arbcom
hearing. The arbcom should be for settling longstanding disputes between (legitimate)
users, not as the de-facto jury for getting rid of every trouble maker - that is what we have
admins for.
--Mark

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list: foundation-l

from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation Website

body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://www.wikimedia.org/wiki/Home
>
> Is the address of the new foundation website.

I'm confused. In the meeting we decided to have it at wikimediafoundation.org.
That will happen when the website goes live, right? If this is the plan, then I
support that, but your post was not clear on this point.

Full HTML support is also still needed. Until then I really can't work on
donation pages for that website.

> Some areas will be restricted later on (for example financial reports
> will be protected) and editable only by sysop. For now, nothing is
> protected.

If the whole website will be HTML-enabled, then page protection alone will not
be enough to ensure security. That is unless only protected pages will support
full HTML.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

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list: wikimedia-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking

body:
Antonio, since you're a sysop you can unblock yourself. Make a note of
the IP that is blocked (the message you get when you try to edit will
tell you this). Then go to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist, find that IP and
click the "unblock" link next to it.

I expect the reason you are blocked is because you share an IP with an
AOL vandal.

Angela.

----- Original Message -----
From: tj69662094 at aol.com <tj69662094 at aol.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 05:41:11 EDT
Subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org

Hi:I believe my father and I have been unfairly and severely blocked
by user RickK, can someone pleaseunblock us?

Thanks and God bless!
Sincerely yours,
AntonioMartin


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] species directory

body:
--- Peter Gervai <grin at tolna.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 03:04:09PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:
>
> > domain-grabber takes it. Also, make sure all information in that
> > database-to-come is public domain or GFDL, so wikipedia can harvest data
> > and images :-)
>
> (sidenote: consider using a Creative Commons free license, for example
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/, which is - as far as I know
> - compatible with GFDL and LGPL and many other free licenses, while GFDL may
> be not.)

It most certainly is *not* compatible. This in fact is an issue that Jimbo,
RMS, and Larry Lessig want to fix.

-- mav

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from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Block #1

body:
On 3 Aug 2004, at 12:59 am, Anthony DiPierro wrote:

> ... just as I could have done something other than list the page on
> VfD (such as speak to Mark first), Fennec could have done something
> other than block me (such as speak to me first).  Just because you
> *can* block me doesn't mean you should.

It seems very clear to me, a recent observer, that it has come to a
point whereby such discourse would be a waste of people's time Anthony,
hence:

[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_Arbitration/Standing_orders/Anthony]]

If Anthony should, for any reason, make a provocative edit (that is, an
edit which is "trolling", "disruptive", and/or "antisocial" as
interpreted by an admin) or engage in an edit war, an admin, may at his
discretion, block Anthony for a period of 24 hours,
_not_subject_to_the_normal_warnings_and_protections_afforded_other_users
. (my emphasis)

Christiaan


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
You're awfully naive, Jimbo.

RickK

"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> So let me see if I have this straight.
>
> As long as a user holds strictly to written policy, he/she may cause
> as much disruption, damage and hell as possible, and community
> consensus on a matter is secondary to ill-thought-out and often
> unenforced legalistic jargon.
>
> Does that pretty much sum it up?

No, I'd say that's exactly backwards of what's going on. I don't
really understand why you're saying those things.

I think there's a misunderstanding here, and an ironic one at that.

It has always been true that sysops could reverse blocks done by other
sysops. You could always do that, and you can do it now. What this
ruling proposes is that if a sysop blocks *and gives a proper reason*,
then the burden of proof would be on another sysop to say why they
reverted it.

This enhances the ability to block and have the blocks stick.

--Jimbo

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from_name: Arno M

subject: [WikiEN-l] TRUST

body:
"Crap, and I was just about to reply. Such an honest offer can't possibly be a scam!"

Hmmm, so I saved someone! Great....

Seriously, I wanted to see if this TRUST e-mail ended up in my
e-mail address becuase it was listed here - it's the only
place where it is displayed.

--
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Block

body:
I DID NOT block Antonio.  I DID block Marine 69-71 last night after REPEATEDLY asking him on his talk page to stop creating a duplicate article at [[Joaquin Phoenix (Actor)]] and to work on the article at [[Joaquin Phoenix]].  He kept reverting my redirect and re-adding duplicate and POV material and refused to respond to my requests to stop.

RickK

TJ69662094 at aol.com wrote:
Hi! I was blocked severely and unfairly by user RickK. I need to be unblocked. He also blocked my father, because there was some name changing war between them.

I dont think of RickK as an administrator, rather he thinks he is a DICtator, which is a shame because I share a lot of respect for all wikipedians, and wonderful friendships with some of them. RickK , as far as I know, didnt even bring the subject of blocking us to Village Pump or other discussion fields before blocking us. Administrative abuse of powers, maybe?

I need to be unblocked so that I can return to be a good wikipedia contributor, as does my dad, user Marine 69-71.

Thank you and Godbless!

Sincerely yours,
User:AntonioMartin
_______________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
I object solely on the grounds that it is not the arbcom's responsibility to create policy.  And that is what they're doing.  Even if I got everything I wanted, I would still object.  But let me also say that I disagree with this option, because it's given Guanaco the ability to suddenly go wild and retroactively unblock EVERY SINGLE PERSON from the past whose reason for blocking doesn't match these unapproved criteria.

RickK

"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> Fred Bauder wrote:
> The language now reads, "When a Wikipedia administrator discovers an
> instance where a block was made without appropriate reference to the
> Wikipedia:Blocking policy, they may reverse the block but should post a note
> on the offending Wikipedia administrators talk page explaining why the block
> was reversed."

Rick wrote:
> Still unacceptable. The Arbcom is still making policy which has not been agreed to by the wikipedia as a whole.
>
> RickK

What do you see as being a policy change in this?

Administrators have always been able to reverse a block which was made
without appropriate reference to the Blocking policy, because admins
have always been able to reverse blocks for any reason at all.

If anything, Rick, I should think you would strongly support this
language, because it *hints* (but doesn't say) that if a proper reason
*is* given, then admins *may not* reverse a block. That is a policy
that I suspect you would support, but it would be policy-making by the
committee if they literally said it.

--Jimbo

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in the news

body:
This is a pretty good indication that our [[John Kerry]] article needs SERIOUS NPOVing, since it's being praised by the Bush people:

http://www.bushcountry.org/news/aug_news_pages/n_080204_kerry_facts.htm

RickK

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from_name: Mark Richards

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
It seems reasonable that a block should, at the very
least, have some basis in community approved
guidelines. Pointing to this in the block comment
doesn't seem unduly harsh.
Mark

--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I object solely on the grounds that it is not the
> arbcom's responsibility to create policy.  And that
> is what they're doing.  Even if I got everything I
> wanted, I would still object.  But let me also say
> that I disagree with this option, because it's given
> Guanaco the ability to suddenly go wild and
> retroactively unblock EVERY SINGLE PERSON from the
> past whose reason for blocking doesn't match these
> unapproved criteria.
>
> RickK
>
> "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> > Fred Bauder wrote:
> > The language now reads, "When a Wikipedia
> administrator discovers an
> > instance where a block was made without
> appropriate reference to the
> > Wikipedia:Blocking policy, they may reverse the
> block but should post a note
> > on the offending Wikipedia administrators talk
> page explaining why the block
> > was reversed."
>
>
> Rick wrote:
> > Still unacceptable. The Arbcom is still making
> policy which has not been agreed to by the wikipedia
> as a whole.
> >
> > RickK
>
>
> What do you see as being a policy change in this?
>
> Administrators have always been able to reverse a
> block which was made
> without appropriate reference to the Blocking
> policy, because admins
> have always been able to reverse blocks for any
> reason at all.
>
> If anything, Rick, I should think you would strongly
> support this
> language, because it *hints* (but doesn't say) that
> if a proper reason
> *is* given, then admins *may not* reverse a block.
> That is a policy
> that I suspect you would support, but it would be
> policy-making by the
> committee if they literally said it.
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!>
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>

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from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Can't take yes for an answer (was: Blocking policy)

body:
Rick whined,

>  I object solely on the grounds that it is not the arbcom's
responsibility to create policy.
> And that is what they're doing.
> Even if I got everything I wanted, I would still object.

Reminds me of the famous dialog from "Rebel Without A Cause"

Girl: What are you rebelling AGAINST, Johnny?
Johnny: Whaddaya got?

Ed Poor
Department of Irony
Wikipedia-in-exile
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subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking

body:
This is utterly false.

There was already an existing article at [[Joaquin Phoenix]].

Marine69-71 created a new article at [[Joaqui'n Phoenix]] (the "i" was accented, I can't reproduce it here) with no new material that did not already exist at the current page.  I redirected the page to the existing page.  Marine then undid the redirection and continued to edit the page.  I wrote on his talk page that there was already a page and he should edit that, and restored the redirection.  He ignored my comment on his talk page, and then MOVED [[Joaqui'n Phoenix]] to [[Joaquin Phoenix (Actor)]] and continued to edit there.  I again explained to him that there was already an article and to please edit there, and he once again ignored me.  I changed the move back to a redirect and edited the Actor page to a redirect as well, which he then proceeded to unredirect and continue to edit.  I said for the THIRD time on his talk page that he needed to stop doing what he was doing, re-edited the Actor page to a redirect, and when he undid the redirect and continued to edit again, in a
 HIGHLY POV style, I blocked him and fixed the redirects again.

How am I supposed to find a "compromise solution" when the other person refuses to discuss it?

RickK

Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
Stormie wrote:

> Angela_ wrote:
>
>> Antonio, since you're a sysop you can unblock yourself. Make a note of
>> the IP that is blocked (the message you get when you try to edit will
>> tell you this). Then go to
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist, find that IP and
>> click the "unblock" link next to it.
>>
>> I expect the reason you are blocked is because you share an IP with an
>> AOL vandal.
>
> Well, according to the block log, the reason he was blocked is because
> he shares an IP with his father, who was blocked for "repeatedly
> recreating duplictate article despite repeated requests to stop."

There's something wrong in the tone of that response. I have not looked
at the article but I do understand that it was a biographical article,
and the dispute was over whether the person's middle name should appear
in the title of the article. The reference to "repeated requests to
stop" suggests that the person making those requests was operating on
the premise that the existing article was absolutely correct. What
attempts did that person make to find a compromise solution?

Ec

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Where are all the trolls?

body:
You, for one, are a troll, and as such, do not deserve a discussion.

RickK

"N.T. Riche" <vonriche at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am not sure, but I seriously don't think trolling is a problem.

I have a few question for Rick and Heph and others:

What constitutes trolling?

If so should trolls be banned without a hearing?

Could other users defend a troll without them being called a troll (Like I have)?

Also I understand we are building a encyclopedia...but is there such a thing as Academic freedom on wikipedia (to some extent because i realize this a private project not a public one)?

I don't see trolling to be a problem, I see users that act like vigilantes to be a problem. I've seen some users that claimed to be "free-thinkers" but banned people without a hearing from the Arb. committee. I've seen users that claimed to be Liberals, but where ultra-reactionary in banning practices and are no better than the people they criticize. Now I never once said they're was a "cabal" but what I am saying is that I believe in FREEDOM.

Nick T. Riche Aka User:Plato

Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Perhaps the inability or refusal to deal with this
'problem' is that there really isn't much of a
problem?
Mark

--- Robert Dodier wrote:

> Hephaestos wrote:
>
> > In light of the fact that the Arbitration
> Committee is
> > quite willing to censure me and others for having
> the
> > audacity to do the job they refuse to do, over any
> objections
> > we may have, I don't think they are being taken
> seriously.
> >
> > On the other hand, if I were to change my handle
> to
> > GreezyTroll and start spewing nonsense about
> "cabal" and
> > "GFDL corpus", and inserting "faggot" into every
> other article,
> > I think my objections would be taken quite
> seriously. In the
> > name of "fairness" or somesuch.
>
> Wikipedia is suffering from a classic case of
> looking for
> the house keys under the street light. There is an
> inability,
> or perhaps refusal, to recognize trolling. On the
> other hand,
> it,s very easy to spot admins who are breaking
> rules.
>
> RickK wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but I will continue to do what needs to be
> done,
> > and I hope, Heph, that you will, too.
>
> Hephaestos wrote:
>
> > Why should we, when our help is so clearly not
> wanted?
>
> For the record: -I- want your help. I consider WP a
> serious
> project -- that means the current troll-pandering
> has to stop.
>
> Hephaestos, you rock, and RickK, so do you.
> Keep up the good work.
>
> For what it,s worth --
> Robert Dodier
> (Wile E. Heresiarch)
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
> finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
You're not responding to the point that this is a policy change being implemented by the arbitration committee without the power to do so.

RickK

Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
It seems reasonable that a block should, at the very
least, have some basis in community approved
guidelines. Pointing to this in the block comment
doesn't seem unduly harsh.
Mark

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from_name: Benedikt Mandl

subject: [Wikipedia-l] species directory

body:
Dear Wikipedia-I readers!

I am a graduate student of zoology at the University of Cambridge (though
Austrian) and would like to share an idea for an urgent Wikipedia project. I
contacted Jimbo Wales before and approach to you with his clear support for
my idea.

Biologists who classify new species normally publish in specialized esoteric
journals, which has led to an overwhelming amount of information with nobody
keeping an overview. Even experts in very specialized fields often don?t
notice if a species has been formally recorded twice, three times or even
more often. Therefore, it is not known how many species there are known ?
and this is just as ridiculous as it sounds. We are not talking about all
species that EXIST on earth - but simply the total number of species that
were already RECORDED in scientific publications. Nobody knows how many
there are. Expert A might think that there are 17 000 annelids known, expert
B believes to know about 20 000. This is because there is no central
registration process and no database or reference directory to browse
information about the current state of knowledge on a particular species.
This situation can be summarized with two statements:

1.) A central, more extensive database for taxonomy is urgently needed. All
their advantages are demonstrated strikingly by bases like www.wikipedia.org

2.) A central, more extensive database for taxonomy is feasible. Wikipedia
proved the technical feasibility; other existing species directories like
www.fishbase.org or http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html
prove the need for this kind of a database and the willingness of
volunteers to make the commitment to contribute.

Based on these key statements, I define two major tasks:

1.) Figure out how the contents of the data base would need to be presented
? by asking experts, potential non-professional users and comparing that
with existing data bases. My part.

2.) Figure out how to do the software, which hardware is required and how to
cover the costs ? by asking experts, looking for fellow volunteers and
potential sponsors.

And this is why I really need Wikipedia. I am a zoologist. Animal stuff.
There?s a lot of geeky-ness in me, but of the bug-kind rather then the
tech-kind, and therefore, I need support on this side. Cambridge provides a
pool of knowledge, experts and a good name for great scientific achievements
? and Wikipedia has a big pool of passionate people who believe in the
freedom of information and sharing knowledge. Wikipedia also has the skills
of supporting my plans with the software that is required. The idea of this
project is still very young, although others have tried similar things
before. Alas, nobody has access to know-how and the passion of the WWW
community to the extend that Wikipedia has it and that is required to
succeed.

Previous work with similar targets

In molecular biology and genetics open databases for genes or proteins are
already very important, only taxonomy, the most internet-related of all
sciences, still lacks the advantages of an online network. Due to that lack,
there are already some databases that tried to establish species
directories. The most important ones are ?Integrated Taxonomic Information
System? (www.it is.usda.gov/) focusing on species of North America and its
European equivalent Species 2000 (www.sp2000.org/). Both directories try to
connect other, existing databases to an integrated unit. Furthermore, there
are ambitious commitments by the ?ALL Species Foundation?
(http://www.all-species.org/) with much ado about almost nothing, a small
but charming database from the University of Michigan
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html) and other, partly
commercial directories. All these websites have some things in common: They
lack of funding, are mismanaged, created for experts and scientists, limited
to a particular group of species or a region, or face other difficulties. To
put it in a nutshell: There is a need for www.wikispecies.org!

Please support this idea. I am highly motivated to work on this project. I
hope that a lot of passion for it will develop in others, there is already a
lot in me. Thank you very much in advance. Kind regards,

Benedikt

----------------------------
Benedikt M. Mandl
Department of Zoology
Downing Street
Cambridge CB2 1ST
United Kingdom
benedikt.mandl at gmx.at

--
NEU: WLAN-Router f?r 0,- EUR* - auch f?r DSL-Wechsler!
GMX DSL = superg?nstig & kabellos http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl


subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocking without a reason, considered unreasonable

body:
Let's sum it up and stop flapping our gums:

1. When you block a user, try to explain why. The best explanation
would be to cite the appropriate section of the Wikipedia:Blocking
policy.

* Example: "being a dastardly villain, see blocking policy #86"

2. Blocks made without an appropriate policy reference, may be
reversed -- but when you un-block someone, kindly leave a note at
the original blocking admin's page, and say something like: "I
unblocked Snidely Whiplash because you forgot to cite the (being
a dastardly villain) section of the blocking policy."

What could be more clear or simple?

Ed Poor
First Elected Bureaucrat           <-- and proud OF it


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
It's not a policy change, any admin can block anyone,
any admin can unblock them.
To avoid misunderstandings, you should point out, when
you block someone, the piece of the guidelines that
justify the block, otherwise, someone will simply
unblock it, assuming there is no good reason. See Ed
Poors cogent explanation.
Mark

--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> You're not responding to the point that this is a
> policy change being implemented by the arbitration
> committee without the power to do so.
>
> RickK
>
> Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It seems reasonable that a block should, at the very
> least, have some basis in community approved
> guidelines. Pointing to this in the block comment
> doesn't seem unduly harsh.
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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providers!>
_______________________________________________
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Phoenix dispute (was: unfair blocking)

body:
Rick,

How could you have compromised with the stubborn Marine?

First, please re-read [[Wikipedia:Don't bite the newbies]].

Second, stop being a "giant prick" and go do something else for an hour.
Or help edit the "(actor)" page, and when you're BOTH done, do this:

(a) delete the original (untouched) Phoenix article (edit summary: to
make room for a redirect)
(b) rename, i.e., "MOVE" the "(actor)" article to Phoenix.

After the dust settles, you can leave a nice, polite, friendly note at
the newbie's page explaining that we only need one article, and that we
only append things like "(actor)" when we need to distinguish between
two similar things.

That way, you make a friend -- instead of pissing someone off.

Ed Poor
One of the most experienced users at Wikipedia
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from_name: Anthere

body:
http://www.wikimedia.org/wiki/Home

Is the address of the new foundation website.

It is currently totally a work in progress. Angela has been working on a
nice html home page, so it look good later on, but it is not in place yet.
I set a new menu yesterday and put some pages already.
We need your help to participate :-) If you feel like it, you are most
welcome :-)

For now, only loggued-in user can work on it, and only sysop can create
an accout.

If you wish an account to update or improve the pages, please ask Angela
for the next weeks. We reserve the right to refuse access, but we wish
to give it pretty liberally :-) Any access given by Angela will be okay
by me while I am away.

Some areas will be restricted later on (for example financial reports
will be protected) and editable only by sysop. For now, nothing is
protected.

We need your help so that this site appears decent. Thanks in advance :-)

ant


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] Where are all the trolls?

body:
Plato wrote: "I don't see trolling to be a problem, I see users that act like vigilantes to
be a problem. I've seen some users that claimed to be "free-thinkers" but banned
people without a hearing from the Arb. committee."

You seem to be operating under the misconception that every block requires an arbcom
hearing. The arbcom should be for settling longstanding disputes between (legitimate)
users, not as the de-facto jury for getting rid of every trouble maker - that is what we have
admins for.
--Mark
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from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
It is not our job, just an effect of deciding cases in a reasonable way.
There is no way we can decide a case that does not "change" policy in that
it points to what can be expected when a matter comes up again. Phrasing the
decision in terms of all administrators when we only have 3 before us is
simply to make explicit what would otherwise be implicit. This way because
all the hullabaloo which I invited by bringing the matter to the mailing
list many have participated in discussing the matter who otherwise would not
have and we have all thought about the scope of arbitration decisions.

Fred

From: Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

I object solely on the grounds that it is not the arbcom's responsibility to
create policy.  And that is what they're doing.  Even if I got everything I
wanted, I would still object.  But let me also say that I disagree with this
option, because it's given Guanaco the ability to suddenly go wild and
retroactively unblock EVERY SINGLE PERSON from the past whose reason for
blocking doesn't match these unapproved criteria.

RickK

"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> Fred Bauder wrote:
> The language now reads, "When a Wikipedia administrator discovers an
> instance where a block was made without appropriate reference to the
> Wikipedia:Blocking policy, they may reverse the block but should post a note
> on the offending Wikipedia administrators talk page explaining why the block
> was reversed."

Rick wrote:
> Still unacceptable. The Arbcom is still making policy which has not been
agreed to by the wikipedia as a whole.
>
> RickK

What do you see as being a policy change in this?

Administrators have always been able to reverse a block which was made
without appropriate reference to the Blocking policy, because admins
have always been able to reverse blocks for any reason at all.

If anything, Rick, I should think you would strongly support this
language, because it *hints* (but doesn't say) that if a proper reason
*is* given, then admins *may not* reverse a block. That is a policy
that I suspect you would support, but it would be policy-making by the
committee if they literally said it.

--Jimbo

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] species directory

body:
Benedikt Mandl wrote:

>Dear Wikipedia-I readers!
>
>I am a graduate student of zoology at the University of Cambridge (though
>Austrian) and would like to share an idea for an urgent Wikipedia project. I
>contacted Jimbo Wales before and approach to you with his clear support for
>my idea.
>
>Biologists who classify new species normally publish in specialized esoteric
>journals, which has led to an overwhelming amount of information with nobody
>keeping an overview. Even experts in very specialized fields often don?t
>notice if a species has been formally recorded twice, three times or even
>more often. Therefore, it is not known how many species there are known ?
>and this is just as ridiculous as it sounds. We are not talking about all
>species that EXIST on earth - but simply the total number of species that
>were already RECORDED in scientific publications. Nobody knows how many
>there are. Expert A might think that there are 17 000 annelids known, expert
>B believes to know about 20 000. This is because there is no central
>registration process and no database or reference directory to browse
>information about the current state of knowledge on a particular species.
>This situation can be summarized with two statements:
>
>1.) A central, more extensive database for taxonomy is urgently needed. All
>their advantages are demonstrated strikingly by bases like www.wikipedia.org
>
>2.) A central, more extensive database for taxonomy is feasible. Wikipedia
>proved the technical feasibility; other existing species directories like
>www.fishbase.org or http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html
>prove the need for this kind of a database and the willingness of
>volunteers to make the commitment to contribute.
>
>Based on these key statements, I define two major tasks:
>
>1.) Figure out how the contents of the data base would need to be presented
>? by asking experts, potential non-professional users and comparing that
>with existing data bases. My part.
>
>2.) Figure out how to do the software, which hardware is required and how to
>cover the costs ? by asking experts, looking for fellow volunteers and
>potential sponsors.
>
>And this is why I really need Wikipedia. I am a zoologist. Animal stuff.
>There?s a lot of geeky-ness in me, but of the bug-kind rather then the
>tech-kind, and therefore, I need support on this side. Cambridge provides a
>pool of knowledge, experts and a good name for great scientific achievements
>? and Wikipedia has a big pool of passionate people who believe in the
>freedom of information and sharing knowledge. Wikipedia also has the skills
>of supporting my plans with the software that is required. The idea of this
>project is still very young, although others have tried similar things
>before. Alas, nobody has access to know-how and the passion of the WWW
>community to the extend that Wikipedia has it and that is required to
>succeed.
>
>Previous work with similar targets
>
>In molecular biology and genetics open databases for genes or proteins are
>already very important, only taxonomy, the most internet-related of all
>sciences, still lacks the advantages of an online network. Due to that lack,
>there are already some databases that tried to establish species
>directories. The most important ones are ?Integrated Taxonomic Information
>System? (www.it is.usda.gov/) focusing on species of North America and its
>European equivalent Species 2000 (www.sp2000.org/). Both directories try to
>connect other, existing databases to an integrated unit. Furthermore, there
>are ambitious commitments by the ?ALL Species Foundation?
>(http://www.all-species.org/) with much ado about almost nothing, a small
>but charming database from the University of Michigan
>http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html) and other, partly
>commercial directories. All these websites have some things in common: They
>lack of funding, are mismanaged, created for experts and scientists, limited
>to a particular group of species or a region, or face other difficulties. To
>put it in a nutshell: There is a need for www.wikispecies.org!
>
>Please support this idea. I am highly motivated to work on this project. I
>hope that a lot of passion for it will develop in others, there is already a
>lot in me. Thank you very much in advance. Kind regards,
>
>Benedikt
>
>----------------------------
>Benedikt M. Mandl
>Department of Zoology
>Downing Street
>Cambridge CB2 1ST
>United Kingdom
>benedikt.mandl at gmx.at
>
>

One resource that is missing in your list is www.ipni.org. Ipni has a database with all published plants from the family downwards. It is a colaboration of three universities  and their database reflects all changes as they are made. The database is almost complete... Their next step will be the possibility to have the "great unwashed" contribute to the database. (they published their intention

If anything, it is a model to copy for animals. Probably we might cooperate on the software.

A directory of names, you want to name them all or/and, do you want to reflect what current thinking is on names?

By the way this might prove valuable.
  GerardM


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in the news

body:
They had to edit out most of the article to get their nuggets of
negativity. One hopes that the Bushies stupid enough to think that
this is the whole article will follow the example of their "leader"
and be sufficiently incurious not to look at it themselves, so we
don't have another wave of vandalism to deal with.

Stan

Rick wrote:

>This is a pretty good indication that our [[John Kerry]] article needs SERIOUS NPOVing, since it's being praised by the Bush people:
>
>http://www.bushcountry.org/news/aug_news_pages/n_080204_kerry_facts.htm
>
>RickK
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Google News Alert - Wikipedia
> From:
> newsalerts-noreply at google.com <newsalerts-noreply at google.com>
> Date:
> Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:15:01 -0700 (PDT)
> To:
> giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
>
> To:
> giantsrick13 at yahoo.com
>
>
>MORE Kerry Facts The Media Will Not Disclose
>BushCountry - USA
>To find a fair and well-documented biography of John F. Kerry, and discover
>who this Presidential candidate really is, go to this Wikipedia Encyclopedia:
>...
><http://www.bushcountry.org/news/aug_news_pages/n_080204_kerry_facts.htm>
>
>This as-it-happens News Alert is brought to you by Google News (BETA)...
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Remove this News Alert:
>http://www.google.com/newsalerts/remove?s=aeadc3b1513bc7fa&hl=en
>
>Create another News Alert:
>http://www.google.com/newsalerts?hl=en
>
>Try Google News:
>http://news.google.com/
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] species directory

body:
As a fellow biologist (biochemistry, though), I think this is a great
idea. Be sure to register www.wikispecies.org ASAP, before some
domain-grabber takes it. Also, make sure all information in that
database-to-come is public domain or GFDL, so wikipedia can harvest data
and images :-)

Once you have a running server, setting up the software should be easy.
Folks at mediawiki-l will be glad to help with any secific problems that
might arise.

Magnus

Benedikt Mandl wrote:

>Dear Wikipedia-I readers!
>
>I am a graduate student of zoology at the University of Cambridge (though
>Austrian) and would like to share an idea for an urgent Wikipedia project. I
>contacted Jimbo Wales before and approach to you with his clear support for
>my idea.
>
>Biologists who classify new species normally publish in specialized esoteric
>journals, which has led to an overwhelming amount of information with nobody
>keeping an overview. Even experts in very specialized fields often don?t
>notice if a species has been formally recorded twice, three times or even
>more often. Therefore, it is not known how many species there are known ?
>and this is just as ridiculous as it sounds. We are not talking about all
>species that EXIST on earth - but simply the total number of species that
>were already RECORDED in scientific publications. Nobody knows how many
>there are. Expert A might think that there are 17 000 annelids known, expert
>B believes to know about 20 000. This is because there is no central
>registration process and no database or reference directory to browse
>information about the current state of knowledge on a particular species.
>This situation can be summarized with two statements:
>
>1.) A central, more extensive database for taxonomy is urgently needed. All
>their advantages are demonstrated strikingly by bases like www.wikipedia.org
>
>2.) A central, more extensive database for taxonomy is feasible. Wikipedia
>proved the technical feasibility; other existing species directories like
>www.fishbase.org or http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html
>prove the need for this kind of a database and the willingness of
>volunteers to make the commitment to contribute.
>
>Based on these key statements, I define two major tasks:
>
>1.) Figure out how the contents of the data base would need to be presented
>? by asking experts, potential non-professional users and comparing that
>with existing data bases. My part.
>
>2.) Figure out how to do the software, which hardware is required and how to
>cover the costs ? by asking experts, looking for fellow volunteers and
>potential sponsors.
>
>And this is why I really need Wikipedia. I am a zoologist. Animal stuff.
>There?s a lot of geeky-ness in me, but of the bug-kind rather then the
>tech-kind, and therefore, I need support on this side. Cambridge provides a
>pool of knowledge, experts and a good name for great scientific achievements
>? and Wikipedia has a big pool of passionate people who believe in the
>freedom of information and sharing knowledge. Wikipedia also has the skills
>of supporting my plans with the software that is required. The idea of this
>project is still very young, although others have tried similar things
>before. Alas, nobody has access to know-how and the passion of the WWW
>community to the extend that Wikipedia has it and that is required to
>succeed.
>
>Previous work with similar targets
>
>In molecular biology and genetics open databases for genes or proteins are
>already very important, only taxonomy, the most internet-related of all
>sciences, still lacks the advantages of an online network. Due to that lack,
>there are already some databases that tried to establish species
>directories. The most important ones are ?Integrated Taxonomic Information
>System? (www.it is.usda.gov/) focusing on species of North America and its
>European equivalent Species 2000 (www.sp2000.org/). Both directories try to
>connect other, existing databases to an integrated unit. Furthermore, there
>are ambitious commitments by the ?ALL Species Foundation?
>(http://www.all-species.org/) with much ado about almost nothing, a small
>but charming database from the University of Michigan
>http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html) and other, partly
>commercial directories. All these websites have some things in common: They
>lack of funding, are mismanaged, created for experts and scientists, limited
>to a particular group of species or a region, or face other difficulties. To
>put it in a nutshell: There is a need for www.wikispecies.org!
>
>Please support this idea. I am highly motivated to work on this project. I
>hope that a lot of passion for it will develop in others, there is already a
>lot in me. Thank you very much in advance. Kind regards,
>
>Benedikt
>
>----------------------------
>Benedikt M. Mandl
>Department of Zoology
>Downing Street
>Cambridge CB2 1ST
>United Kingdom
>benedikt.mandl at gmx.at
>
>
>
>


from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in the news

body:
Rick wrote:

> This is a pretty good indication that our [[John Kerry]] article needs
> SERIOUS NPOVing, since it's being praised by the Bush people:
>
> http://www.bushcountry.org/news/aug_news_pages/n_080204_kerry_facts.htm

I'm not sure that's the case.  They selectively quote part of the
article, and seem mostly pleased by some facts we have in the article
that aren't all that widely reported elsewhere.  Unless these facts turn
out to be false, I don't think we should remove them from the article
simply because one or the other side in a political contest likes to
quote them.

-Mark


body:
Pete/Pcb21 wrote:

> Well other posts in this thread indicate that at best, the _threat_ of
> patents being enforced against MP3 decoders is very real. At worst, it
> is already not possible (though it looks like there are plenty of GPL
> programs on sourceforge today offering MP3 playback.

I don't think that's true.  Debian's legal team is pretty conservative
(read: paranoid) on these matters, and Debian currently includes
mp3-playback software in the main distribution (package 'xmms', among
others).  Mp3-encoding software is not part of Debian due to patent
issues, but playback software is, so it seems their legal team has
determined there aren't any problems with playback.

-Mark


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Request for bot flag on en.

body:
Just replying to myself to get some attention to this, .. so would
anyone like to actually set the flag?

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:43:23 +0000, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason
<avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> I requested bot flag for my bot "Sau?kindin" a few days ago here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Bots#Requst_for_permission_to_run_a_warnfile
> could i get a botflag for this user on en.
>
> Username: Sau?kindin
> ID: 90603
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Foundation Website

body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> .... I must remember we have to
> contact the current owner. Would you perhaps do it Mav ? Tell us if you
> do or do not please.

I could, but they will likely want us to pay for the domain name.  I would
prefer if somebody who speaks German fluently could conduct those negotiations.

> I suppose that once the www.wikimedia.org will be a little bit more
> organised and MOSTLY when it will support the fundraising page, we will
> remove the current site at wikimediafoundation.org and move the other one.

Nod. Another thing that should happen is applying the skin that Angela has been
working on.

> I did not remembered that subtility. Well, if protecting ALL pages
> requiring HTML is required for security, we could protect all of them I
> guess.

I don't think it is currently possible to set HTML support based on whether or
not a page is protected. But that would be a very useful thing to have for the
foundation website since then we would not have to worry as much about just who
we allow to have accounts.

Another idea would be to have full HTML support only on templates (if coding
such a thing would be easier to set per namespace). Then HTML support could be
restricted via namespace instead of protection status. I'm  pretty sure that
MediaWiki can already set access permissions based on namespace.

> Which pages do you think will require HTML ?

A set of fundraising pages and also various forms, such as signing up to be a
member or assigning copyright to the foundation, etc.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

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from_name: Peter Gervai

subject: [Wikipedia-l] species directory

body:
On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 03:04:09PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:

> domain-grabber takes it. Also, make sure all information in that
> database-to-come is public domain or GFDL, so wikipedia can harvest data
> and images :-)

(sidenote: consider using a Creative Commons free license, for example
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/, which is - as far as I know
- compatible with GFDL and LGPL and many other free licenses, while GFDL may
be not.)


from_name: Fennec Foxen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Block

body:
> Hi! I was blocked severely
Actually, all blocks are equal in intensity.
> and unfairly by user RickK. I need to be unblocked. He also blocked my father, because
> there was some name changing war between them.
> I dont think of RickK as an administrator, rather he thinks he is a DICtator, which is a shame because I share a lot of respect for all wikipedians, and wonderful friendships with some of them.
I will note that others have agreed with you in the past.
> RickK , as far as I know, didnt even bring the subject of blocking us to Village Pump or other discussion fields before blocking us. Administrative abuse of powers, maybe?
Blocking of individual users such as this block is not a usual topic
of the Village Pump. Current policy, furthermore, does *not* _require_
any such notice or discussion of blocks. Where would you have him take
this discussion?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocking policy

body:
If this post is at all indicitave of the prose you attempted to place
on Wikipedia, I caution you to be more careful in the future: it is
fraught with what appear to be largely typographical errors.

----- Original Message -----
How areyou doing my man?
<snip>
I hope you can help us and maybe have a talk with RickK. I dont know
but maybe he might ave to coll his engines a little bit. He probably,I
acknowledge does it thinkingof the best for oursite, for that I
acknowledge him,butn he might ant to have his blood presure checked
the way heacts sometimes.
Thank you for your help and God bless you!
Sincerelyours,
Uer AntonioMartin


subject: [WikiEN-l] Block

body:
--- Rick wrote:
> I DID NOT block Antonio.  I DID block Marine 69-71 last night after
> REPEATEDLY asking him on his talk page to stop creating a duplicate article
> at [[Joaquin Phoenix (Actor)]] and to work on the article at [[Joaquin
> Phoenix]].  He kept reverting my redirect and re-adding duplicate and POV
> material and refused to respond to my requests to stop.

Then you move on to the next step of the dispute resolution process. What
policy did Marine break that warranted a block?

-- mav

_______________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> You're awfully naive, Jimbo.

That's an awfully rude statement, Rick.

--mav

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subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking

body:
I agree, and think that pages should be protected far
more easily than a user should be blocked.  The
current rigid, tie-our-hands protection policy seems
to force people to think in terms of arbitration and
blocking, rather than protecting. This in turn makes
the arbitration commitees job harder, I think, wheras
the proactive settle it on the page approach seems
more wikifaithful.

S

--- Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

> Try sending an email, before taking an extreme step?
>  (Blocking for a story
> simply about title changes and redirects _is_ an
> extreme step; you allege
> POV editing also.  This may be annoying, but
> blocking?)
>
> Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

> --- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>You're awfully naive, Jimbo.
>
> That's an awfully rude statement, Rick.

That's an awfully redundant statement, Mav.


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi Anthere,

Le Tuesday 03 August 2004 13:51, Anthere a ?crit :
> http://www.wikimedia.org/wiki/Home
>
> Is the address of the new foundation website.
>
> It is currently totally a work in progress. Angela has been working on a
> nice html home page, so it look good later on, but it is not in place yet.
> I set a new menu yesterday and put some pages already.
> We need your help to participate :-) If you feel like it, you are most
> welcome :-)
>
> For now, only loggued-in user can work on it, and only sysop can create
> an accout.
>
> If you wish an account to update or improve the pages, please ask Angela
> for the next weeks. We reserve the right to refuse access, but we wish
> to give it pretty liberally :-) Any access given by Angela will be okay
> by me while I am away.
>
> Some areas will be restricted later on (for example financial reports
> will be protected) and editable only by sysop. For now, nothing is
> protected.
>
> We need your help so that this site appears decent. Thanks in advance :-)
>
> ant

I would like to help translate the foundation web site into French and to be
member of the Press Team.

Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


body:
Angela already replied to this, thanks angela.

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:14:52 +0000, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason
<avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just replying to myself to get some attention to this, .. so would
> anyone like to actually set the flag?
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:43:23 +0000, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason
>
>
> <avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I requested bot flag for my bot "Sau?kindin" a few days ago here:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Bots#Requst_for_permission_to_run_a_warnfile
> > could i get a botflag for this user on en.
> >
> > Username: Sau?kindin
> > ID: 90603
> >
>


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

subject: [WikiEN-l] Block #1

body:
> It seems very clear to me, a recent observer, that it has come to a
> point whereby such discourse would be a waste of people's time Anthony

As soon as someone brought it to my attention that people considered this
listing to be trolling I agreed to have it removed.  What wasted people's
time was blocking me.

> If Anthony should, for any reason, make a provocative edit (that is, an
> edit which is "trolling", "disruptive", and/or "antisocial" as
> interpreted by an admin) or engage in an edit war, an admin, may at his
> discretion, block Anthony for a period of 24 hours,
> _not_subject_to_the_normal_warnings_and_protections_afforded_other_users
> .. (my emphasis)

>  Christiaan

I agreed to this completely voluntarily.  Please, save your comments for
when you know what you're talking about, not when you're a recent observer
who knows virtually none of the facts.

Anthony


from_name: Rick

body:
I repeat.  Where in the arbitration committee charter are they authorized to make policy?

RickK

"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
What could be more clear or simple?

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body:
They are not making policy.

(They are so!)

They are not!

(Are so!)

etc.

--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I repeat.  Where in the arbitration committee
> charter are they authorized to make policy?
>
> RickK
>
> "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> What could be more clear or simple?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!>
_______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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body:
Whatever happened to the policy of not attacking people on the mailing list?  You, as the list administrator, are allowed to be the only one to do so?  You keep chiding me for doing it, you might try living up to it.

Also, this person is not a newbie.

Third, I was TRYING to be polite.  He kept ignoring me.

RickK

"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
Rick,

How could you have compromised with the stubborn Marine?

First, please re-read [[Wikipedia:Don't bite the newbies]].

Second, stop being a "giant prick" and go do something else for an hour. Or help edit the "(actor)" page, and when you're BOTH done, do this:

(a) delete the original (untouched) Phoenix article (edit summary: to make room for a redirect)
(b) rename, i.e., "MOVE" the "(actor)" article to Phoenix.

After the dust settles, you can leave a nice, polite, friendly note at the newbie's page explaining that we only need one article, and that we only append things like "(actor)" when we need to distinguish between two similar things.

That way, you make a friend -- instead of pissing someone off.

Ed Poor
One of the most experienced users at Wikipedia

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subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking

body:
I DID NOT block him because the article he was writing is POV, and I DID NOT say in the block summary that that was the case.

RickK

Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>How am I supposed to find a "compromise solution" when the other person
refuses to discuss it?

RickK

Try sending an email, before taking an extreme step? (Blocking for a story
simply about title changes and redirects _is_ an extreme step; you allege
POV editing also. This may be annoying, but blocking?)

Charles

_______________________________________________
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WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
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from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Bughunt!

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> I'd like to see us cut the open bug reports *in half* to 107 over the
> next week.

If we make it, then can we finally switch to BugZilla?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Block

body:
Vandalism.

RickK

Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Rick wrote:
> I DID NOT block Antonio. I DID block Marine 69-71 last night after
> REPEATEDLY asking him on his talk page to stop creating a duplicate article
> at [[Joaquin Phoenix (Actor)]] and to work on the article at [[Joaquin
> Phoenix]]. He kept reverting my redirect and re-adding duplicate and POV
> material and refused to respond to my requests to stop.

Then you move on to the next step of the dispute resolution process. What
policy did Marine break that warranted a block?

-- mav

_______________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
Tough.

RickK

Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Rick wrote:
> You're awfully naive, Jimbo.

That's an awfully rude statement, Rick.

--mav

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subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking

body:
Since I was involved in the redirecting and reverting, I was not allowed to protect the page, much as I would have liked to.

And why should I send an email when THREE attempts to discuss it on the user's page were ignored?

RickK

"S.Vertigo" <sewev at yahoo.com> wrote:
I agree, and think that pages should be protected far
more easily than a user should be blocked. The
current rigid, tie-our-hands protection policy seems
to force people to think in terms of arbitration and
blocking, rather than protecting. This in turn makes
the arbitration commitees job harder, I think, wheras
the proactive settle it on the page approach seems
more wikifaithful.

S

--- Charles Matthews
wrote:

> Try sending an email, before taking an extreme step?
> (Blocking for a story
> simply about title changes and redirects _is_ an
> extreme step; you allege
> POV editing also. This may be annoying, but
> blocking?)
>
> Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking

body:
Thank you.  I did nothing wrong, and would not change a thing I did.

RickK

blankfaze <blankfaze at gmail.com> wrote:
Just for the record, in case anyone gives a crap, I fully support Rick
here. The user was *extensively* warned for his disruptive behaviour.
Yeah, the idea of exhausting all options before blocking is nice, but
sometimes people are just hell-bent and unwilling to even discuss it,
and need to be blocked for a bit so they can learn that we don't
operate like that, and that it's better to discuss things than to make
disruptive edits.
_______________________________________________
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body:
Requiring a sysop to do something which they were not required to do before is making policy.  This is my last posting on this topic.

RickK

Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
They are not making policy.

(They are so!)

They are not!

(Are so!)

etc.

--- Rick wrote:

> I repeat. Where in the arbitration committee
> charter are they authorized to make policy?
>
> RickK
>
> "Poor, Edmund W" wrote:
> What could be more clear or simple?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!>
_______________________________________________
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> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> I don't think it is currently possible to set HTML support based on whether or
> not a page is protected. But that would be a very useful thing to have for the
> foundation website since then we would not have to worry as much about just who
> we allow to have accounts.
>
> Another idea would be to have full HTML support only on templates (if coding
> such a thing would be easier to set per namespace). Then HTML support could be
> restricted via namespace instead of protection status. I'm  pretty sure that
> MediaWiki can already set access permissions based on namespace.

Such restrictions would be really really unreliable. I would not
recommend it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> I don't think it is currently possible to set HTML support based on whether or
> not a page is protected. But that would be a very useful thing to have for the
> foundation website since then we would not have to worry as much about just who
> we allow to have accounts.
>
> Another idea would be to have full HTML support only on templates (if coding
> such a thing would be easier to set per namespace). Then HTML support could be
> restricted via namespace instead of protection status. I'm  pretty sure that
> MediaWiki can already set access permissions based on namespace.

Such restrictions would be really really unreliable. I would not
recommend it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> I don't think it is currently possible to set HTML support based on whether or
> not a page is protected. But that would be a very useful thing to have for the
> foundation website since then we would not have to worry as much about just who
> we allow to have accounts.
>
> Another idea would be to have full HTML support only on templates (if coding
> such a thing would be easier to set per namespace). Then HTML support could be
> restricted via namespace instead of protection status. I'm  pretty sure that
> MediaWiki can already set access permissions based on namespace.

Such restrictions would be really really unreliable. I would not
recommend it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> I don't think it is currently possible to set HTML support based on whether or
> not a page is protected. But that would be a very useful thing to have for the
> foundation website since then we would not have to worry as much about just who
> we allow to have accounts.
>
> Another idea would be to have full HTML support only on templates (if coding
> such a thing would be easier to set per namespace). Then HTML support could be
> restricted via namespace instead of protection status. I'm  pretty sure that
> MediaWiki can already set access permissions based on namespace.

Such restrictions would be really really unreliable. I would not
recommend it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Mark Richards

body:
It's not requiring you to, its simply pointing out
that if you don't other sysops are perfectly at
liberty to revert it.
Mark

--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Requiring a sysop to do something which they were
> not required to do before is making policy.  This is
> my last posting on this topic.
>
> RickK
>
> Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> They are not making policy.
>
> (They are so!)
>
> They are not!
>
> (Are so!)
>
> etc.
>
> --- Rick wrote:
>
> > I repeat. Where in the arbitration committee
> > charter are they authorized to make policy?
> >
> > RickK
> >
> > "Poor, Edmund W" wrote:
> > What could be more clear or simple?
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> storage!>
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> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
>
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia mentioned in Washington Times

body:
I am glad that a reasonably well written intro on WP
inspired this writer of aspiring intelligence to spew
forth:

"There is what I believe should be an alarming
connection between PC and *communism. This is because
PC doesn't understand [that] our Constitution affords
its citizens equality of opportunity by virtue of
being *human, not equality of opportunity by virtue of
being under its protection."

...Humanism, not protectionism. I agree, but what's
fascinating is that later he makes clear just how much
he values the cultures of other humans:

"Sadly, many of our graduates leave public schools
without the *intelligence to question ideas that
*stealthily *undermine the *dominant culture.

Instead, the prevailing attitudes of those subjected
to the *multicultural, politically correct educational
agendas promote both a bloodless *communist revolution
and creation of a comprehensive *terrorist
infrastructure; all the while paving the way for the
proverbial "Trojan Horse" to conquer the *sleeping
giant."

..."communists", "terrorists", "domestic enemies"...
ROFL. Strip away all the flowery language, and what's
left is rather... pasty.

S

Do a "Google" search on p
--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:

> See
>
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040731-101359-2982r.htm
>
> ...Do a "Google" search on political correctness and
> for the most part
> you will find a definition, such as that in the free
> encyclopedia
> Wikipedia:
>     "Political correctness is the alteration of
> language said to redress
> real or alleged unjust discrimination or to avoid
> offense. The term most
> often appears in the predicate adjective form
> politically correct, often
> abbreviated PC, and is usually used mockingly or
> disparagingly. One
> purpose behind 'politically correct' language is to
> prevent the
> exclusion or the offending of people based upon
> differences or
> handicaps. The idea behind using 'politically
> correct' terminology is to
> bring peoples' unconscious biases into awareness,
> allowing them to make
> a more informed choice about their language and
> making them aware of
> things different people might find offensive."
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from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Block

body:
--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Vandalism.

How? It certainly is not the type of obvious vandalism that policy allows
admins to block. Just saying something is 'vandalism' is also ad-hominem.

Not responding to user talk page requests may be very annoying, but I'm not
aware of that being against policy (might be a good idea though). Not to
mention a policy that would allow an admin to block a non-vandal user over.

Having the power to block other users also makes your meta actions open to
question by the community. Insulting those who comment on your actions is
therefore not called for (thinking of your response to Jimbo's comment).

-- mav

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from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] A problem in one of our articles with Jayjg

body:
I am having some trouble with one of our new contributors,
Jayjg.  Jayjg is an ultra-Orthodox Jewish contributor, who
until recently has gotten along fine with most people. His
knowledge about many aspects of Judaism has added needed
data and perspective to a number of our articles. We both
have worked together very well on many articles; it is
always good to bring in more knowledgeable editors.

However, about two weeks ago I started having trouble with
him on a Talk page for the WikiProject on Judaism articles.
We were not disagreeing over what to put in an article.
Rather, whenever topics on theology arose, he seemed unable
to understand many of my statements, and began imputing
positions to me that I did not have and refuting positions
which I never held.

I repeatedly tried to clarify the situation, but Jayjg kept
on acting as if every statement made contained some sort of
hidden attack on his religion.  He even criticised me on
many points that we *agreed* on; that really made me
nervous. Despite this, we still got along fine with edits
on all other articles. I regarded him as a useful Wikipedia
contributor.

However in recent days his ultra-Orthodox bias against all
other forms of Judaism have overwhelmed his common sense;
Jayjg has passed from partisan bickering into vandalism: He
is effectively committing fraud by making up statements by
"the leadership of Reform Judaism", making them out to be
anti-Semites who hate Orthodox Jews.

Now, if this were true, I would not have a problem with
mentioning the actual quotes made, the context in which
these quotes were made, and the response to them. However,
the article he links to doesn't back up his story. (In
fact, it contains no quotes from the original speech at
all, and no quotes which support his story!)

In fact, I personally have corresponded with some of the
Reform rabbis Jayjg is hysterical about, and I have read
their actual statements. The text which Jayjg keeps
inserting is some sort of paranoid fantasy about the
leadership of Reform Judaism slandering Orthodox Jews, in
general, as being as evil as terrorists like Osama bin
Ladin. Yet in point of fact, no such statement was ever
made.

The actual documented events show quite the opposite: a
number of Ultra-Orthodox rabbis in Israel issued a number
of angry pronouncements against all of Reform Judaism, on
repeated occasions, and this led to violence against Reform
Jews, death threats, and harassment. In response to this,
one single Reform rabbi wrote that those particular people
who engaged in such behaviour were like Jewish versions of
Islamic fundamentalists who encouraged violence; those
particular people were twisting their faith to promote
hatred, and did not represent mainstream Judaism. Nowhere
was there any attack on Orthodox Judaism in general, or
even on Ultra-Orthodox Judaism; rather, the author was
asking that attacks on _Reform_ Jews end!

Bizarrely, Jayjg has reversed the sequence of events, has
faked statements, and has attributed his fake statements to
the general Reform leadership! He keeps reverting the
article to remove real quotes from the rabbi in question,
and keeps deleting all discussion of the events (in all
sections of the article) that would lead to understanding
this in its historical context.

Readers should understand that many people in Jayjg's sect
of Judaism believe that any form of Orthodox or
non-Orthodox Judaism (other than their own, of course) is
dangerous and dishonest. Perhaps he feels that he has
somehow read between the lines and "uncovered" the true
beliefs of Reform Jews; perhaps he was taught this by his
teachers, and cannot believe that they misled him. If so,
then perhaps we can talk to him privately over how to write
NPOV articles, the crucial need for historical context, and
the sacred need for accurate quoting!

But until then, we cannot allow him to effectively
vandalize this article. We can't make up statements and
beliefs, and criticise people and movements for these
non-existent beliefs.

See this article:
[[Relationship between segments of Judaism]]

Robert (RK)

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body:
Sj wrote:
> I would love to see a simple "pick your language" portal, a la
> http://www.easyjet.com/ .

Ugh, flags. No thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Sj wrote:
> I would love to see a simple "pick your language" portal, a la
> http://www.easyjet.com/ .

Ugh, flags. No thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Sj wrote:
> I would love to see a simple "pick your language" portal, a la
> http://www.easyjet.com/ .

Ugh, flags. No thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Sj wrote:
> I would love to see a simple "pick your language" portal, a la
> http://www.easyjet.com/ .

Ugh, flags. No thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: blankfaze

subject: [WikiEN-l] unfair blocking

body:
Just for the record, in case anyone gives a crap, I fully support Rick
here.  The user was *extensively* warned for his disruptive behaviour.
 Yeah, the idea of exhausting all options before blocking is nice, but
sometimes people are just hell-bent and unwilling to even discuss it,
and need to be blocked for a bit so they can learn that we don't
operate like that, and that it's better to discuss things than to make
disruptive edits.


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] World War II Wiki-reader

body:
On a happier note, I've started work to produce a World War II Wiki-reader.
You can read about it at [[Wikipedia:World War II wikireader]]

I'd just like to gripe that there are no good instructions anywhere for
actually starting one - I had to ask people on the German Wikipedia for some
help (and I then made the timeline you see on that page).

Volunteers are welcome! Since the other Wiki-reader projects seem to have
stalled, I'd like to see if we can get this one out the door within the
month (before
I go back to grad school).

--Mark