from_name: GerardM

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
On 3/18/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > Problem? Look at the recent changes on mo.wiki. You and your band of
> > thugs have not been caring about that place since you left a week or
> > two ago. You just noticed it's still there, oh, let's go complain.
> >
> > The fact is, none of you actually visits there very often.
> >
>
> AFAICT, it was a POV fork of the Romanian Wikipedia (in Cyrillic), and
> you were the only person adding anything to it. The fact is, Moldovan is
> a relic of the Cold War, and the only people who still officially use it
> are the unrecognized republic of Transnistria.[1]
>

Hoi,
Please read what you write; '''people''' who still use it..  Of all
the lame arguments that I have heard this is a great one. May I remind
you of what the Wikimedia Foundation stands for? Information to all
people in their language... Therefore if you want an argument to keep
this project you just provided it.
Thanks,
   GerardM


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Rich Morin

subject: [Wikitech-l] table pages: status, open questions

body:
I continue to work on my DB table summary pages:

  *  tidied up the formatting

  *  added some section headers

  *  added an "Inter-table Relationships" section which tries
     to list all of a table's columns which reflect columns
     in other tables

  *  created a simple diagram of the inter-table relationships:

       http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/tmp/db_tables.png

  *  guessed at some table descriptions, etc.

  *  added information on three tables which are used in
     Semantic MediaWiki

The top-level page is located at

  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:RichMorin/MySQL_Tables

General comments, corrections, and suggestions are solicited.
Lacking any specific feedback to date, I have had to guess at
a number of details.  So, significant errors may be present!

In addition, there are several pages that have major holes:

archive

  The internal format of ar_flags is not defined.

trackbacks

  None of the columns are defined.

validate

  None of the columns are defined.

-r
--
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development


list: wikien-l

from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [WikiEN-l] FYI: A program for evaluating WP articles

body:
Hi,
  Well it's certainly very interesting. I wonder how it can be gamed,
and what the consequences that would be for Wikipedia? I also note
that deletions don't seem to be covered anywhere. An author who
deletes text could be making a valuable contribution...

Steve

On 3/17/06, Geoff Burling <llywrch at rdrop.com> wrote:
> Have a look at Ray King's essay:
>
> http://www.pint2.org/index.php/Contributor_Ranking_System
>
> Although this solution is aimed more generally at sites using Wikimedia
> software, this is something I believe Ray has been talking with Jimbo
> about. I happened to be present when Ray presented this the other night,
> & a known expert suggested an excellent way to grab some of the data
> needed without causing a strain on the servers.
>
> And Ray is *very* interested in feedback. I hope he concentrates on a
> simplified version of this proposal, rather than trying to write the
> finished, with all of the bells-&-whistles version.
>
> Geoff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Geoffrey Burling

body:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, Steve Bennett wrote:

> Hi,
>  Well it's certainly very interesting. I wonder how it can be gamed,
> and what the consequences that would be for Wikipedia? I also note
> that deletions don't seem to be covered anywhere. An author who
> deletes text could be making a valuable contribution...
>
> Steve
>
> On 3/17/06, Geoff Burling <llywrch at rdrop.com> wrote:
>> Have a look at Ray King's essay:
>>
>> http://www.pint2.org/index.php/Contributor_Ranking_System
>>
>> Although this solution is aimed more generally at sites using Wikimedia
>> software, this is something I believe Ray has been talking with Jimbo
>> about. I happened to be present when Ray presented this the other night,
>> & a known expert suggested an excellent way to grab some of the data
>> needed without causing a strain on the servers.
>>
>> And Ray is *very* interested in feedback. I hope he concentrates on a
>> simplified version of this proposal, rather than trying to write the
>> finished, with all of the bells-&-whistles version.
>>
I know that the possibility of "gaming" this tool has been raised -- but if
we make the assumption that what Ray's Toolbar measures is based on the
version currently viewed, then the fact someone contributed "fnord" 100
times (which was quickly deleted) is factored out.

As for negative deletions -- I think that should be handled in version 2.0
(where I expect the cross-Wiki feature will be implimented). What do you
think, Ray?

Geoff


from_name: Ray King

body:
On gaming: No matter what we do, the system will be gameable, but if the
rewards for doing so aren't too high (which in this case I don't think they
are) and we monitor the system, we can likely stay ahead of the gamers.  In
the end, giving people the ability to quickly and easily see what other
contributions an author has made gives the reader the chance to decide how
credible the author is.

On deletions:  The idea that deleting is also a valuable contribution is a
very good point.  But that does open a gaming hole in that one can add with
one account and delete with the other.  I suggest we leave that alone for
now.

On getting this going: I completely agree that we should define a narrow and
do-able set of requirements for "Phase I".  To that end, I would greatly
appreciate any help in separating Phase I, II and III features as well as
any other thoughts and help in developing specs.

Thanks for the thoughts! - Ray.

On 3/18/06, Geoffrey Burling <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, Steve Bennett wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >  Well it's certainly very interesting. I wonder how it can be gamed,
> > and what the consequences that would be for Wikipedia? I also note
> > that deletions don't seem to be covered anywhere. An author who
> > deletes text could be making a valuable contribution...
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > On 3/17/06, Geoff Burling <llywrch at rdrop.com> wrote:
> >> Have a look at Ray King's essay:
> >>
> >> http://www.pint2.org/index.php/Contributor_Ranking_System
> >>
> >> Although this solution is aimed more generally at sites using Wikimedia
> >> software, this is something I believe Ray has been talking with Jimbo
> >> about. I happened to be present when Ray presented this the other
> night,
> >> & a known expert suggested an excellent way to grab some of the data
> >> needed without causing a strain on the servers.
> >>
> >> And Ray is *very* interested in feedback. I hope he concentrates on a
> >> simplified version of this proposal, rather than trying to write the
> >> finished, with all of the bells-&-whistles version.
> >>
> I know that the possibility of "gaming" this tool has been raised -- but
> if
> we make the assumption that what Ray's Toolbar measures is based on the
> version currently viewed, then the fact someone contributed "fnord" 100
> times (which was quickly deleted) is factored out.
>
> As for negative deletions -- I think that should be handled in version 2.0
> (where I expect the cross-Wiki feature will be implimented). What do you
> think, Ray?
>
> Geoff
>

--
Raymond King
ray at aboutus.com
503.888.8808 (cell)


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
Also, perhaps it should be noted that on the voting page, Dpotop wrote
at the very top that the Foundation has limited resources. A good way
to encourage people to vote his way...

Mark

On 18/03/06, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> The arguments that you use to deny people who use the cyrillic script
> is political. By continuing this line of arguments you make your POV
> case worse. What does it matter that Transnistria can be seen as a
> relic of the cold war, what does Transnistria matter that its
> government glorifies USSR and communism. Wikipedia is for people.
>
> The continued insistance of this blatantly political POV makes me
> consider that you the people in Transnistria are discrimated against.
> They are denied their place under the sun. A place under the sun that
> does not cost us much .. hard disks are cheap.
>
> With this continued agressive insistence of the deletion of this
> Wikipedia, I am more and more coming to the conclusion that it is
> wrong for the Wikimedia Foundation to close down this project. The
> reason: the arguments used are plain discrimation. It is
> discrimination because of ideological and political reasons.
>
> Thanks,
>    GerardM
>
>
>
> On 3/18/06, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) <rowikipedia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > If you mean the Cyrillic script is a relic of the Cold War,
> > > that's not exactly accurate, Latin was made official in 1989, and a
> > > period of transition and confusion took place until about 1993~1995,
> > > by which time nearly all citizens knew Latin, whether they liked it or
> > > not. This isn't nessecarily the case in Transnistria, where, as Gerard
> > > noted, "people use it".
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> >
> > Even though this in itself is not a particularly good reason against closing
> > down the Moldovan Wikipedia, the Cyrillic script for Moldovan is very much a
> > relic of the Cold War. This can be seen by the fact that Latin was
> > introduced in Moldova right after the Cold War. Transnistria itself can be
> > seen as relic of the Cold War - it's government still glorifies the symbols
> > of the USSR and Communism.
> >
> > But, anyway, it's been agreed (see Anthere's message) that the Moldovan
> > Wikipedia should be frozen for any editing.
> >
> > Ronline
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


subject: [Wikipedia-l] To Gerard re: Moldovan wiki

body:
If that's your reason, we should probably close gotwiki as well. Perhaps gvwiki.

Mark

On 18/03/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> Gerard, you forgot an important thing of this affair:
> NO MOLDOVANS requested or wanted this Wikipedia.
>
> We have *no* Transnistrian Moldovan contributors who want to write a
> wikipedia in Cyrillic alphabet.
>
> Its only supporters are Node_ue (the kid in Arizona who barely speaks the
> language) and a few Russians who support it for ideological/political
> reasons and who can't contribute anyway, as they don't know the
> language.
>
> There are no newspapers, no journals, no magazines, no books currently
> published in Romanian Cyrillic in Transnistria. The children use
> decades old schoolbooks from the time of the Soviet Union.
>
> Virtually everyone there would like to switch the education system to
> the Latin alphabet, but dissent is not something easy to do in a
> totalitarian regime: there are some Romanian/Moldovan Transnistrians
> in prison since 1991 for political dissent.
>
> So, I'd say to close it now, not because of political reasons, but for
> the simple fact there are not enough people to contribute to it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: Fastfission

subject:
[WikiEN-l] When Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 2.5
	license makes sense

body:
On 3/17/06, Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
> On 3/17/06, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 3/17/06, Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
> > > CC-BY-ND is a fairly permissive license.  It's much more permissive
> > > than, for instance, the license Wikimedia provides for its own logos.
> > > By your rationale Wikimedia shouldn't be contributing to Wikipedia.
> >
> > Oh come on. We all know this is a special situation. I am so *bored*
> > with people saying, "But the Wikimedia logos are not licensed freely!"
> > and implying that this is somehow has any implications for policy.
> > They are the single and sole category of exception for a very
> > straightforward and practical legal reason.
> >
> > FF
>
> My whole point is that there are exceptions.  I do disagree with you
> though that Wikimedia is the *only* corporation which has practical
> legal reasons not to license certain images under a free license,
> though.

I don't really know how you got the last sentence out of what I said,
but nevertheless I suppose I will say that of course other
corporations have practical reasons for not licensing things freely.

FF


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Slow caches

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Several of the cache boxen are running a bit slow; there's about a 100:1 ratio
> between the fast and slow boxen:
>

Domas has known about this for a while, he seems to be of the opinion that we'd be better off
switching back to memcached than fixing this in tugela. Apparently there are other problems with
tugela, and he's lost interest in maintaining it to some degree.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikitech-l] 207.142.131.221 listed in bl.spamcop.net

body:
If I recall correctly, SpamCop blackmails people by asking them to pay
to have their address removed.

Mark

On 18/03/06, Michael Bimmler <mbimmler at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/17/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> > Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > > I have got a bounce because of this when send a reply to a OTRS-ticket.
> > >
> > > http://www.spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock&ip=207.142.131.221
> > >
> > > Can be seen what can be done about this?
> >
> > Apparently, nothing. SpamCop won't provide any evidence of their "spam traps" so
> > we can only flail about randomly guessing at what might have been hit at this point.
> >
> But we could "object" to the listing, as indicated on the link above,
> couldn't we? Because if OTRS replies don't come through because we're
> listed in SpamCop (which many people and servers consider too be a
> reliable source, I haven't got any experience with it), this is not
> exactly what we want...
>
>
> --
> Regards
> Michael Bimmler
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


list: foundation-l

from_name: Delphine Ménard

subject: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

body:
On 3/17/06, R. O. C <sdnyroc at gmail.com> wrote:

> please accept my personal gratitudes for all those who are helpful and
> respectful to our efforts.

Thank you. You're precious.

Delphine
--
~notafish


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
Hoi,
The arguments that you use to deny people who use the cyrillic script
is political. By continuing this line of arguments you make your POV
case worse. What does it matter that Transnistria can be seen as a
relic of the cold war, what does Transnistria matter that its
government glorifies USSR and communism. Wikipedia is for people.

The continued insistance of this blatantly political POV makes me
consider that you the people in Transnistria are discrimated against.
They are denied their place under the sun. A place under the sun that
does not cost us much .. hard disks are cheap.

With this continued agressive insistence of the deletion of this
Wikipedia, I am more and more coming to the conclusion that it is
wrong for the Wikimedia Foundation to close down this project. The
reason: the arguments used are plain discrimation. It is
discrimination because of ideological and political reasons.

Thanks,
   GerardM

On 3/18/06, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) <rowikipedia at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > If you mean the Cyrillic script is a relic of the Cold War,
> > that's not exactly accurate, Latin was made official in 1989, and a
> > period of transition and confusion took place until about 1993~1995,
> > by which time nearly all citizens knew Latin, whether they liked it or
> > not. This isn't nessecarily the case in Transnistria, where, as Gerard
> > noted, "people use it".
> >
> > Mark
>
>
> Even though this in itself is not a particularly good reason against closing
> down the Moldovan Wikipedia, the Cyrillic script for Moldovan is very much a
> relic of the Cold War. This can be seen by the fact that Latin was
> introduced in Moldova right after the Cold War. Transnistria itself can be
> seen as relic of the Cold War - it's government still glorifies the symbols
> of the USSR and Communism.
>
> But, anyway, it's been agreed (see Anthere's message) that the Moldovan
> Wikipedia should be frozen for any editing.
>
> Ronline
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Rich Morin wrote:
> archive
>
>   The internal format of ar_flags is not defined.

It's a copy of old_flags for old items (deleted under 1.4), just as ar_text is a
copy of old_text.

> trackbacks
>
>   None of the columns are defined.

Not used.

> validate
>
>   None of the columns are defined.

Not used.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: Mel Gibson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocking policy violation

body:
Hello all.  I am writing to this list because I believe the blocking policy
was violated for my account.  Admin Nlu blocked my account due to "personal
attack".  However, there was no such attack whatsoever.  I had comments on
my front page stating, in my opinion, admins who I thought were doing a good
job and admins who were not.  Can anyone look into this for me?  In advance,
I greatly appreciate anyone's assistance.

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


from_name: Philip Welch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Captcha word quiz

body:
On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Dan Jacobson wrote:

> Regarding http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:Captcha/help :
> it says "Please contact the site administrators for assistance if this
> is unexpectedly preventing you from making legitimate posts." but
> doesn't have a button to do so.
>
> Anyway, e.g., I have images turned off in my browser, so come up with
> a word quiz.
>
> Hmm, wikibooks not wikipedia? OK sorry.

You have images turned off in your browser? Are you using Netscape
4.7 or something?

There are many important features waiting for our developers to
implement. Supporting 1990's era web browsing is not one of them. I
suggest you use a modern browser to browse Wikimedia sites in the
future.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


from_name: Chris Jenkinson

body:
Bogdan Giusca wrote:
> Gerard, you forgot an important thing of this affair:
> NO MOLDOVANS requested or wanted this Wikipedia.

I have to ask (to you, and the other people who want it closed down),
why do you care so much about it? Go and contribute to another language
Wikipedia instead. Then you won't have to worry about the existence of
this edition of Wikipedia. It just seems to me like there's been a lot
of argument over something which you (and others) aren't contributing to
anyway, so it doesn't really make a practical difference to you whether
it's open or closed.

Chris

--
Chris Jenkinson
chris at starglade.org

"Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [WikiEN-l] Off-wiki vs. on-wiki discussion

body:
geni wrote:
> I suspect numbers are a more important difference than softwear.
>

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: Joy S

subject: [WikiEN-l] Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo

body:
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:39:26 +0000
> From: Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Message-ID: <mevo125lvq43bj1bh16o4fr6gilbf5nu3t at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> ==Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo==
>
> Hi, an article defaming Wikipedia is spreading across the internet.
> [http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm You can read it
> at the bottom of this link.] The article's author, [[Judi McLeod]]
> implies that Wikipedia is connected to and takes its orders from
> [[Kofi Annan]]. She also claims that Wikipedia removed information
> from the [[Kofi Annan]] page at Kofi Annan's request. According to
> her, the article had claimed Annan's father was a freemason....

The tone of the article doesn't give me much hope that she is someone
who is interested in reason and proof.

Joyous


from_name: Rob Church

body:
As I understand it, Brion contacted them but received no response, or
at least, nothing helpful.

Rob Church

On 18/03/06, Michael Bimmler <mbimmler at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/17/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> > Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > > I have got a bounce because of this when send a reply to a OTRS-ticket.
> > >
> > > http://www.spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock&ip=207.142.131.221
> > >
> > > Can be seen what can be done about this?
> >
> > Apparently, nothing. SpamCop won't provide any evidence of their "spam traps" so
> > we can only flail about randomly guessing at what might have been hit at this point.
> >
> But we could "object" to the listing, as indicated on the link above,
> couldn't we? Because if OTRS replies don't come through because we're
> listed in SpamCop (which many people and servers consider too be a
> reliable source, I haven't got any experience with it), this is not
> exactly what we want...
>
>
> --
> Regards
> Michael Bimmler
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


body:
Hoi,
You presume that you know what all people in Transnistria want, you
presume again with political arguments that people cannot have their
change. What you know of Transnistria is more than I do. History has
learned elsewhere that after a change there are always people who
yearned for the good old days...

As to Mark, you cannot deny that he puts efford in what he thinks
important. When you compare this with people who vote on Meta for a
new project just because they think something a good idea,  it is a
breath of fresh air. When you think that you know his politics because
of the quote that he uses, I am sure you do not understand Mark.

When some Russians are in favour, their reasons are certainly as
honourable as yours. The difference is that you want to achieve the
destruction of a wiki while your opponents want to preserve and
continue a wiki.

I did not really care either way but my sympathy is not with politics
and for many reasons I am not in favour of the deletion of wikis. The
agrassive way in which you seek to delete this project tipped my
sympathy. I do not vote, could not vote but I do voice my disaproval.

Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/18/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> Gerard, you forgot an important thing of this affair:
> NO MOLDOVANS requested or wanted this Wikipedia.
>
> We have *no* Transnistrian Moldovan contributors who want to write a
> wikipedia in Cyrillic alphabet.
>
> Its only supporters are Node_ue (the kid in Arizona who barely speaks the
> language) and a few Russians who support it for ideological/political
> reasons and who can't contribute anyway, as they don't know the
> language.
>
> There are no newspapers, no journals, no magazines, no books currently
> published in Romanian Cyrillic in Transnistria. The children use
> decades old schoolbooks from the time of the Soviet Union.
>
> Virtually everyone there would like to switch the education system to
> the Latin alphabet, but dissent is not something easy to do in a
> totalitarian regime: there are some Romanian/Moldovan Transnistrians
> in prison since 1991 for political dissent.
>
> So, I'd say to close it now, not because of political reasons, but for
> the simple fact there are not enough people to contribute to it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
I think it's pretty clear that this person is just nuts. Any article
which starts with a headline like "Wikipedia - Unbiased Encyclopedia
or a 'Jewish Tool'" is unlikely to be taken seriously by most sane
people. The article you've linked is clearly written by a raving
anti-Semite and probably a Holocaust denier. I have never found
attempts to reason with such people fruitful, and I doubt this is
important enough to warrant the cost and time of a lawsuit.

FF

On 3/18/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
> ==Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo==
>
> Hi, an article defaming Wikipedia is spreading across the internet.
> [http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm You can read it
> at the bottom of this link.] The article's author, [[Judi McLeod]]
> implies that Wikipedia is connected to and takes its orders from
> [[Kofi Annan]]. She also claims that Wikipedia removed information
> from the [[Kofi Annan]] page at Kofi Annan's request. According to
> her, the article had claimed Annan's father was a freemason.
>
> Wiki contributors went through all 542 revisions of the [[Kofi Annan]]
> article and found no mention of freemasonry whatsoever. There is an
> ongoing discussion about this at [[talk:Kofi Annan]]
>
> Senior sys-op and Wiki news reporter [[user:Zanimum|Zanimum]] wrote
> her two letters asking for proof but she refuses to respond. She also
> refuses to correct the errors or withdraw the [[Canada Free Press]]
> article.
>
> Can anybody advise us on the next step to take? Ignoring them isn't an
> option since they have written several error-ridden articles about
> Wikipedia. No doubt there will be more.
>
> This is very frustrating and upsetting. We have gone out of our way to
> address her concerns but she gives us no credit. Both
> [[user:Homeontherange|Homeontherange]] and I have made sure that
> unproven assertions and inflammatory statements are quickly taken out
> of the article whenever they appear. I myself made it a priority
> recently to include positive details such as the journalism award
> McLeod won in 1983. And yet she calls us "wicked pedia".
> --[[User:Cyberboomer|Cyberboomer]] 21:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
Also -- perhaps the best way to deal with this is to add some
information to the Judi McLeod page that links to and notes that she
seems to think that Wikipedia is run by a Jewish mafia and is part of
some major Jewish conspiracy (and considers Wikipedians to be "Jewish
volunteers"). Personally I think information like that will make most
rational people think twice about ever taking her seriously as a
journalist, if they ever did.

FF

On 3/18/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
> ==Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo==
>
> Hi, an article defaming Wikipedia is spreading across the internet.
> [http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm You can read it
> at the bottom of this link.] The article's author, [[Judi McLeod]]
> implies that Wikipedia is connected to and takes its orders from
> [[Kofi Annan]]. She also claims that Wikipedia removed information
> from the [[Kofi Annan]] page at Kofi Annan's request. According to
> her, the article had claimed Annan's father was a freemason.
>
> Wiki contributors went through all 542 revisions of the [[Kofi Annan]]
> article and found no mention of freemasonry whatsoever. There is an
> ongoing discussion about this at [[talk:Kofi Annan]]
>
> Senior sys-op and Wiki news reporter [[user:Zanimum|Zanimum]] wrote
> her two letters asking for proof but she refuses to respond. She also
> refuses to correct the errors or withdraw the [[Canada Free Press]]
> article.
>
> Can anybody advise us on the next step to take? Ignoring them isn't an
> option since they have written several error-ridden articles about
> Wikipedia. No doubt there will be more.
>
> This is very frustrating and upsetting. We have gone out of our way to
> address her concerns but she gives us no credit. Both
> [[user:Homeontherange|Homeontherange]] and I have made sure that
> unproven assertions and inflammatory statements are quickly taken out
> of the article whenever they appear. I myself made it a priority
> recently to include positive details such as the journalism award
> McLeod won in 1983. And yet she calls us "wicked pedia".
> --[[User:Cyberboomer|Cyberboomer]] 21:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Bogdan Giusca

body:
Gerard, you forgot an important thing of this affair:
NO MOLDOVANS requested or wanted this Wikipedia.

We have *no* Transnistrian Moldovan contributors who want to write a
wikipedia in Cyrillic alphabet.

Its only supporters are Node_ue (the kid in Arizona who barely speaks the
language) and a few Russians who support it for ideological/political
reasons and who can't contribute anyway, as they don't know the
language.

There are no newspapers, no journals, no magazines, no books currently
published in Romanian Cyrillic in Transnistria. The children use
decades old schoolbooks from the time of the Soviet Union.

Virtually everyone there would like to switch the education system to
the Latin alphabet, but dissent is not something easy to do in a
totalitarian regime: there are some Romanian/Moldovan Transnistrians
in prison since 1991 for political dissent.

So, I'd say to close it now, not because of political reasons, but for
the simple fact there are not enough people to contribute to it.


subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
OK -- I realize after poking around a bit more that ONLY the bottom
part of that page is about Annan. The original article is:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/cover020706.htm

In any case, it still looks bonkers, and the only people who seem to
be really "spreading it around" the internet look even more bonkers.

FF

On 3/18/06, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> Also -- perhaps the best way to deal with this is to add some
> information to the Judi McLeod page that links to and notes that she
> seems to think that Wikipedia is run by a Jewish mafia and is part of
> some major Jewish conspiracy (and considers Wikipedians to be "Jewish
> volunteers"). Personally I think information like that will make most
> rational people think twice about ever taking her seriously as a
> journalist, if they ever did.
>
> FF
>
> On 3/18/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
> > ==Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo==
> >
> > Hi, an article defaming Wikipedia is spreading across the internet.
> > [http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm You can read it
> > at the bottom of this link.] The article's author, [[Judi McLeod]]
> > implies that Wikipedia is connected to and takes its orders from
> > [[Kofi Annan]]. She also claims that Wikipedia removed information
> > from the [[Kofi Annan]] page at Kofi Annan's request. According to
> > her, the article had claimed Annan's father was a freemason.
> >
> > Wiki contributors went through all 542 revisions of the [[Kofi Annan]]
> > article and found no mention of freemasonry whatsoever. There is an
> > ongoing discussion about this at [[talk:Kofi Annan]]
> >
> > Senior sys-op and Wiki news reporter [[user:Zanimum|Zanimum]] wrote
> > her two letters asking for proof but she refuses to respond. She also
> > refuses to correct the errors or withdraw the [[Canada Free Press]]
> > article.
> >
> > Can anybody advise us on the next step to take? Ignoring them isn't an
> > option since they have written several error-ridden articles about
> > Wikipedia. No doubt there will be more.
> >
> > This is very frustrating and upsetting. We have gone out of our way to
> > address her concerns but she gives us no credit. Both
> > [[user:Homeontherange|Homeontherange]] and I have made sure that
> > unproven assertions and inflammatory statements are quickly taken out
> > of the article whenever they appear. I myself made it a priority
> > recently to include positive details such as the journalism award
> > McLeod won in 1983. And yet she calls us "wicked pedia".
> > --[[User:Cyberboomer|Cyberboomer]] 21:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
> > Guy (JzG)
> > --
> > http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>


from_name: Chip Berlet

body:
Hi,

Actually, this is the classic antisemitic conspiracy theory linking Jews and Freemasons in a vast age-old plot. This was the theme of the hoax document, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

See:

http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/masons.html
http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/protocol.html

The author also is complaining that Wiki entries critical of Holocaust denial are part of the conspiracy of Jews.

See:

http://judicial-inc.biz/wikipedia_supplement.htm#Fredrick%20Tobens%20comments%20that%20were%20deleted

This is really nasty stuff.

Cberlet
aka
Chip Berlet
Political Research Associates
www.publiceye.org

________________________________

From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org on behalf of Joy S
Sent: Sat 3/18/2006 4:56 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo

> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:39:26 +0000
> From: Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Message-ID: <mevo125lvq43bj1bh16o4fr6gilbf5nu3t at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> ==Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo==
>
> Hi, an article defaming Wikipedia is spreading across the internet.
> [http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm You can read it
> at the bottom of this link.] The article's author, [[Judi McLeod]]
> implies that Wikipedia is connected to and takes its orders from
> [[Kofi Annan]]. She also claims that Wikipedia removed information
> from the [[Kofi Annan]] page at Kofi Annan's request. According to
> her, the article had claimed Annan's father was a freemason....

<<SNIP>>


subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
Hi,

There are two different articles

One by Judi McLeod

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/cover020706.htm <http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/cover020706.htm>

and one that cites that page by

 judicial-inc.biz <http://judicial-inc.biz/wikipedia.htm>

http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm <http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm>

It is tha latter that is openly Antisemitic.

And we are discussing the same problem under the Subject line:

[WikiEN-l] Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo

:-)

-cberlet


from_name: Michael Bimmler

body:
On 3/17/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > I have got a bounce because of this when send a reply to a OTRS-ticket.
> >
> > http://www.spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock&ip=207.142.131.221
> >
> > Can be seen what can be done about this?
>
> Apparently, nothing. SpamCop won't provide any evidence of their "spam traps" so
> we can only flail about randomly guessing at what might have been hit at this point.
>
But we could "object" to the listing, as indicated on the link above,
couldn't we? Because if OTRS replies don't come through because we're
listed in SpamCop (which many people and servers consider too be a
reliable source, I haven't got any experience with it), this is not
exactly what we want...

--
Regards
Michael Bimmler


body:
On 3/18/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> As I understand it, Brion contacted them but received no response, or
> at least, nothing helpful.
>
Ah, I see. Pity anyway.
Michael
>
> Rob Church
>

--
Regards
Michael Bimmler


from_name: Walter Vermeir

body:
Walter Vermeir schreef:
> I have got a bounce because of this when send a reply to a OTRS-ticket.
>
> http://www.spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock&ip=207.142.131.221
>
> Can be seen what can be done about this?
>
> [[meta:user:Walter]]

The block has expired automaticly. Lets hope there will not come new
complaints to spamcop. The next time it could be longer.

--
Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Problem? Look at the recent changes on mo.wiki. You and your band of
> thugs have not been caring about that place since you left a week or
> two ago. You just noticed it's still there, oh, let's go complain.
>
> The fact is, none of you actually visits there very often.
>

AFAICT, it was a POV fork of the Romanian Wikipedia (in Cyrillic), and
you were the only person adding anything to it. The fact is, Moldovan is
a relic of the Cold War, and the only people who still officially use it
are the unrecognized republic of Transnistria.[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_alphabet#Moldovan

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Greasemonkey script to filter the watchlist page

body:
On 3/18/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>   I've made a a greasemonkey (google it) script for firefox that lets
> you filter your watchlist. It adds six buttons to your watchlist page,
> letting you filter out Wikipedia: pages, User: pages etc etc.
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/stevage/HideWikipedia.user.js
>
> Runs on Firefox 1.0.7
>
> I'd love your comments.
>
> Steve

Could you add a hide logged in users button?

--
geni


from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
Ah, the original post by Guy Chapman only mentioned the nutjob
article, not the original Canada Free Press one, and gave the mistaken
impression they were the same.

Judi McLeod's article carries the often-repeated mistaken idea that it
was hard for Siegenthaler to remove accusations from his article.  It
wasn't; it contained them for so long simply because nobody noticed.
It's easy for anyone to have unsourced allegations removed.

And the whole freemasonry thing is a bit nuts, if the above is correct
and the Kofi Annan article never contained it in the first place.  It
sounds like that someone so loves the conspiracy-theory version that
correcting the facts doesn't work.

-Matt


from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
Hi all,
  I've made a a greasemonkey (google it) script for firefox that lets
you filter your watchlist. It adds six buttons to your watchlist page,
letting you filter out Wikipedia: pages, User: pages etc etc.

http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/stevage/HideWikipedia.user.js

Runs on Firefox 1.0.7

I'd love your comments.

Steve


from_name: Mathias Schindler

subject: [WikiEN-l] Letters to the Editor of the NY Times

body:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/19/business/yourmoney/19back.html?_r=1&oref=login

Writing for Wikipedia

To the Editor:

Re "Anonymous Source Is Not the Same as Open Source" (Digital Domain,
March 12), in which Randall Stross said the online encyclopedia
Wikipedia suffered from credibility issues:

Having perused and occasionally contributed to articles in Wikipedia
in my field of expertise ? Hispanic languages, literature and culture
? what has impressed me has been the general accuracy of the material
presented, as well as the obvious conscientiousness of a number of the
contributors. Rather than simply criticize Jimmy Wales, the founder of
Wikipedia, one should applaud his welcome to all who are willing to
accept the principle of objectivity in their contributions, regardless
of credentials.

In my professional life, I have seen respected journals with a good
deal less sense of responsibility, particularly when it comes to
contributors with imposing credentials. Obviously, Wikipedia does have
a problem with respect to "vandalism": for example, the clown who
inserted "Yo quiero Taco Bell" in the article dealing with the Spanish
philosopher and novelist Miguel de Unamuno, but for the most part such
things are easy to spot and correct. Albert Soletsky

Teaneck, N.J., March 12

The writer is an associate professor of languages at Fairleigh
Dickinson University.


from_name: Guy Chapman aka JzG

subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
==Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo==

Hi, an article defaming Wikipedia is spreading across the internet.
[http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm You can read it
at the bottom of this link.] The article's author, [[Judi McLeod]]
implies that Wikipedia is connected to and takes its orders from
[[Kofi Annan]]. She also claims that Wikipedia removed information
from the [[Kofi Annan]] page at Kofi Annan's request. According to
her, the article had claimed Annan's father was a freemason.

Wiki contributors went through all 542 revisions of the [[Kofi Annan]]
article and found no mention of freemasonry whatsoever. There is an
ongoing discussion about this at [[talk:Kofi Annan]]

Senior sys-op and Wiki news reporter [[user:Zanimum|Zanimum]] wrote
her two letters asking for proof but she refuses to respond. She also
refuses to correct the errors or withdraw the [[Canada Free Press]]
article.

Can anybody advise us on the next step to take? Ignoring them isn't an
option since they have written several error-ridden articles about
Wikipedia. No doubt there will be more.

This is very frustrating and upsetting. We have gone out of our way to
address her concerns but she gives us no credit. Both
[[user:Homeontherange|Homeontherange]] and I have made sure that
unproven assertions and inflammatory statements are quickly taken out
of the article whenever they appear. I myself made it a priority
recently to include positive details such as the journalism award
McLeod won in 1983. And yet she calls us "wicked pedia".
--[[User:Cyberboomer|Cyberboomer]] 21:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


from_name: Wikipedia Romania (Ronline)

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
>
> If you mean the Cyrillic script is a relic of the Cold War,
> that's not exactly accurate, Latin was made official in 1989, and a
> period of transition and confusion took place until about 1993~1995,
> by which time nearly all citizens knew Latin, whether they liked it or
> not. This isn't nessecarily the case in Transnistria, where, as Gerard
> noted, "people use it".
>
> Mark

Even though this in itself is not a particularly good reason against closing
down the Moldovan Wikipedia, the Cyrillic script for Moldovan is very much a
relic of the Cold War. This can be seen by the fact that Latin was
introduced in Moldova right after the Cold War. Transnistria itself can be
seen as relic of the Cold War - it's government still glorifies the symbols
of the USSR and Communism.

But, anyway, it's been agreed (see Anthere's message) that the Moldovan
Wikipedia should be frozen for any editing.

Ronline


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

body:
If anyone can proof Annan's father was a freemason, I'd be happy to
post it, but somehow I doubt any such proof exists. Just conspiracy
nuts. I'm ignoring here...

On 3/18/06, Chip Berlet <c.berlet at publiceye.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Actually, this is the classic antisemitic conspiracy theory linking Jews and Freemasons in a vast age-old plot. This was the theme of the hoax document, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/masons.html
> http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/protocol.html
>
> The author also is complaining that Wiki entries critical of Holocaust denial are part of the conspiracy of Jews.
>
> See:
>
> http://judicial-inc.biz/wikipedia_supplement.htm#Fredrick%20Tobens%20comments%20that%20were%20deleted
>
> This is really nasty stuff.
>
> Cberlet
> aka
> Chip Berlet
> Political Research Associates
> www.publiceye.org
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org on behalf of Joy S
> Sent: Sat 3/18/2006 4:56 PM
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo
>
>
>
> > Message: 11
> > Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:39:26 +0000
> > From: Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard
> > To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> > Message-ID: <mevo125lvq43bj1bh16o4fr6gilbf5nu3t at 4ax.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > ==Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo==
> >
> > Hi, an article defaming Wikipedia is spreading across the internet.
> > [http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm You can read it
> > at the bottom of this link.] The article's author, [[Judi McLeod]]
> > implies that Wikipedia is connected to and takes its orders from
> > [[Kofi Annan]]. She also claims that Wikipedia removed information
> > from the [[Kofi Annan]] page at Kofi Annan's request. According to
> > her, the article had claimed Annan's father was a freemason....
>
> <<SNIP>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


body:
Ok, done. Same URL.

Steve

On 3/18/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/18/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >   I've made a a greasemonkey (google it) script for firefox that lets
> > you filter your watchlist. It adds six buttons to your watchlist page,
> > letting you filter out Wikipedia: pages, User: pages etc etc.
> >
> > http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/stevage/HideWikipedia.user.js
> >
> > Runs on Firefox 1.0.7
> >
> > I'd love your comments.
> >
> > Steve
>
> Could you add a hide logged in users button?
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Mikkerpikker

subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
Why exactly is this being taken so seriously? The article in question
seems rather silly to me. Only someone with serious paranoia issues
would attach such importance to the possibility that Annan's father
was a freemason. Frankly, the inuendo that something sinister is going
on ("Anna is a secret freemason," sayeth Reading Between the Lines,
"he plans to take over the world! And Wikipedia editors are in league
with him!") is not to be taken seriously. There is plenty of silly
nonesense out there, and as Wikipedia grows, so will the silly
nonsense about Wikipedia. Why bother responding to such irrationality?

On 3/18/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
> ==Libel against Wikipedia and Jimbo==
>
> Hi, an article defaming Wikipedia is spreading across the internet.
> [http://thailandesl.chazzsongs.net/internet.wiki.htm You can read it
> at the bottom of this link.] The article's author, [[Judi McLeod]]
> implies that Wikipedia is connected to and takes its orders from
> [[Kofi Annan]]. She also claims that Wikipedia removed information
> from the [[Kofi Annan]] page at Kofi Annan's request. According to
> her, the article had claimed Annan's father was a freemason.
>
> Wiki contributors went through all 542 revisions of the [[Kofi Annan]]
> article and found no mention of freemasonry whatsoever. There is an
> ongoing discussion about this at [[talk:Kofi Annan]]
>
> Senior sys-op and Wiki news reporter [[user:Zanimum|Zanimum]] wrote
> her two letters asking for proof but she refuses to respond. She also
> refuses to correct the errors or withdraw the [[Canada Free Press]]
> article.
>
> Can anybody advise us on the next step to take? Ignoring them isn't an
> option since they have written several error-ridden articles about
> Wikipedia. No doubt there will be more.
>
> This is very frustrating and upsetting. We have gone out of our way to
> address her concerns but she gives us no credit. Both
> [[user:Homeontherange|Homeontherange]] and I have made sure that
> unproven assertions and inflammatory statements are quickly taken out
> of the article whenever they appear. I myself made it a priority
> recently to include positive details such as the journalism award
> McLeod won in 1983. And yet she calls us "wicked pedia".
> --[[User:Cyberboomer|Cyberboomer]] 21:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Michael Meadon

subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it's pretty clear that this person is just nuts. Any article
> which starts with a headline like "Wikipedia - Unbiased Encyclopedia
> or a 'Jewish Tool'" is unlikely to be taken seriously by most sane
> people. The article you've linked is clearly written by a raving
> anti-Semite and probably a Holocaust denier. I have never found
> attempts to reason with such people fruitful, and I doubt this is
> important enough to warrant the cost and time of a lawsuit.

I think there is a distinction between the website and the article.
The article is posted on the website with the Jewish tool nonsense,
but the anti-Semitic views are not attributable to Judi McLeod. That
said, what you've written still basically applies, if not as
obviously.


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-03-19

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test BUG 361: URL within URL, not bracketed... FAILED!
Running test External links: invalid character... FAILED!
Running test Bug 2702: Mismatched <i> and <a> tags are invalid... FAILED!
Running test A table with no data.... FAILED!
Running test A table with nothing but a caption... FAILED!
Running test Link containing "#<" and "#>" % as a hex sequences... FAILED!
Running test Template with thumb image (wiht link in description)... FAILED!
Running test Link to image page... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887: A ISBN with a thumbnail... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887: A <math> with a thumbnail... FAILED!
Running test BUG 561: {{/Subpage}}... FAILED!
Running test Simple category... FAILED!
Running test Basic section headings... FAILED!
Running test Section headings with TOC... FAILED!
Running test Handling of sections up to level 6 and beyond... FAILED!
Running test Resolving duplicate section names... FAILED!
Running test Template with sections, __NOTOC__... FAILED!
Running test Link inside a section heading... FAILED!
Running test Media link with nasty text... FAILED!
Running test Bug 2095: link with pipe and three closing brackets... FAILED!
Running test Parser hook: static parser hook inside a comment... FAILED!
Running test Sanitizer: Validating the contents of the id attribute (bug 4515)... FAILED!

Passed 275 of 297 tests (92.59%) FAILED!


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
That's a rather inaccurate assessment. The official language of the
Republic of Moldova, which is recognised by every nation on earth, is
"Moldovan".

Also, whether or not Transnistria is internationally recognised as an
independent country, it's certainly undeniable that there is some
usage of the Cyrillic script over there.

And if having mowp is a statement by WMF to the legitimacy of
Transnistria, isn't *not* having it equally POV in the opposite
direction? Note that I don't personally think it's POV.

Mark

On 18/03/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> GerardM wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > The arguments that you use to deny people who use the cyrillic script
> > is political. By continuing this line of arguments you make your POV
> > case worse. What does it matter that Transnistria can be seen as a
> > relic of the cold war, what does Transnistria matter that its
> > government glorifies USSR and communism. Wikipedia is for people.
> >
> > The continued insistance of this blatantly political POV makes me
> > consider that you the people in Transnistria are discrimated against.
> > They are denied their place under the sun. A place under the sun that
> > does not cost us much .. hard disks are cheap.
> >
> > With this continued agressive insistence of the deletion of this
> > Wikipedia, I am more and more coming to the conclusion that it is
> > wrong for the Wikimedia Foundation to close down this project. The
> > reason: the arguments used are plain discrimation. It is
> > discrimination because of ideological and political reasons.
> >
>
> Its very existence is a POV fork - it's a language which nobody
> offically recognises as being distinct from Romanian (I say lift, you
> say elevator), for a country which nobody offically recognises as
> existing. If the Foundation says yes, a country which doesn't exist is
> allowed to have projects in a language which doesn't exist, they are
> promoting the POV that the country and it's language exist and should be
> recognised. /That/ is not a goal of the Foundation.
>
> --
> Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
> "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
> Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


body:
No, yes, yes.

But then, the same is true of mowp -- regardless of whether or not you
consider Moldovan to be a dialect of Romanian, it undeniably "exists",
and it is undeniable that some people write it in Cyrillic -- thus, it
is a real language which is used on mowp, one which was not "invented"
but which is found in books written by people for whom it was the
native language and has evolved over the centuries from another
natural language, Latin, regardless of whether you call the language
"Romanian written in Cyrillic" or "Moldavian".

And obviously, some people would find it useful, namely those people
whose primary or possibly even only script is Cyrillic. In addition to
the Moldovan population of Transnistria, groups who can be considered
to use Cyrillic in some significant capacity include the Moldovan
communities in Ukraine and Russia, most of whom emigrated before Latin
was made official, although it's probable that the majority would use
Latin nowadays anyhow.

Some people have raised the issue that there is low internet access to
people who write this language in Cyrillic. That is certainly true.
Internet access is poor. But the same is true for Bambara, or Yoruba,
or Fulfulde, and yet we are building Wikipedias for them. The hope is
that someday they will have a better infrastructure, or that perhaps
they can be distributed in print format.

Mark

On 18/03/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > On 18/03/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Gerard, you forgot an important thing of this affair:
> >>NO MOLDOVANS requested or wanted this Wikipedia.
> >>
> >>We have *no* Transnistrian Moldovan contributors who want to write a
> >>wikipedia in Cyrillic alphabet.
> >>
> >>Its only supporters are Node_ue (the kid in Arizona who barely speaks the
> >>language) and a few Russians who support it for ideological/political
> >>reasons and who can't contribute anyway, as they don't know the
> >>language.
> >>
> >>There are no newspapers, no journals, no magazines, no books currently
> >>published in Romanian Cyrillic in Transnistria. The children use
> >>decades old schoolbooks from the time of the Soviet Union.
> >>
> >>Virtually everyone there would like to switch the education system to
> >>the Latin alphabet, but dissent is not something easy to do in a
> >>totalitarian regime: there are some Romanian/Moldovan Transnistrians
> >>in prison since 1991 for political dissent.
> >>
> >>So, I'd say to close it now, not because of political reasons, but for
> >>the simple fact there are not enough people to contribute to it.
> >>
> >
> > If that's your reason, we should probably close gotwiki as well.
> > Perhaps gvwiki.
> >
>
> Has anyone apart from yourself and a few (insert nation here)
> nationalists contributed to these? Are they real langauges? Would any
> real people find them useful?
>
> --
> Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
> "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
> Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: THD

references:
<aa2ef4440603160618u2115d4c6y@mail.gmail.com>
	<dvc7jj$gsd$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<916cc1db0603161302x41cd5106r@mail.gmail.com>
	<dve7hp$ahr$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<916cc1db0603171201m6dc17918u@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Haha....ROC you just praised me too much. I can't express myself as clear as
you do, and I don't think my english skill is good. No matter what, I think
we need more communication with the Foundation and here. I hope it's not too
hard for people here to understand what I said.

Theodoranian

2006/3/18, R. O. C <sdnyroc at gmail.com>:
>
> anthere, thank you very much for the comments. meanwhile, i am
> preparing a letter requesting for permission to use the foundation's
> trademark for the conference and will email to relevant committees and
> internal-l shortly.
>
> ya, although there are lots of active chinese contributors (japanese
> too i believe), i think that the language is really an obstacle for
> most east asian people. user:theodoranian (aka, THD in this thread) is
> probably one in zh.wikipedia i know with the best english skill, but
> even he confessed that he sometimes has trouble understanding
> questions or finding words to answer questions when he was in
> frankfurt (sorry~~, thd). of course, his written english is good. i am
> sure there are a number of chinese contributors with good english, and
> the recent discussions here on the list about the chinese conference
> have promoted the list among chinese contributors. i hope that there
> will be more chinese participants here and on meta and irc.
>
> thanks! i'm living in new york, where i have to use english everyday,
> so that is why. 8-) i'll probably go to boston this year (it's so
> near) and hopefully meet you guys.
>
> emm, that's a great idea! i think that it will be very helpful, both
> to the chinese contributors and the foundation. i believe that it will
> be very productive if personal meetings are held between foundation
> people and people from mainland china, taiwan, hong kong, etc, as what
> have been for european people. i also believe that people from east
> asian projects can bring more insights/input to the wikimania.
>
> best,
>
> roc
> --
>


body:
On 3/19/06, Ilmari Karonen <nospam at vyznev.net> wrote:
> It's pretty interesting to compare the two solutions; there are a few
> similarities, but not many.  Mine doesn't yet have the "hide logged in
> users" feature, but it shouldn't be too hard to add.  On the other hand,
> my code works with or without "enhanced recent changes" and the
> filtering is reversible.

What can I say, I'm a javascript n00bie :)

So this doesn't happen again, has anyone written a script/extension to
display diffs in the history view? I'm about to attack that...

Steve


from_name: Ilmari Karonen

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
>   I've made a a greasemonkey (google it) script for firefox that lets
> you filter your watchlist. It adds six buttons to your watchlist page,
> letting you filter out Wikipedia: pages, User: pages etc etc.
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/stevage/HideWikipedia.user.js

Coincidentally, I just finished a user script for the same purpose:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Watchfilter

It's pretty interesting to compare the two solutions; there are a few
similarities, but not many.  Mine doesn't yet have the "hide logged in
users" feature, but it shouldn't be too hard to add.  On the other hand,
my code works with or without "enhanced recent changes" and the
filtering is reversible.

--
Ilmari Karonen


body:
> Yes, but remember that Cyrillic is a script in decline. The 150,000 or so
> Moldovans in Transnistria are made to use Cyrillic, and they would prefer to
> use Latin, as can be seen by the crisis provoked by the decision to remove
> state funding from Latin-script schools. OK, none of these are reasons
> against the existence of a Moldovan Wikipedia in Cyrillic per se, but I
> think your point of this being able to be used for any tangible positive
> purpose is overstated. This can be seen by the fact that there are no
> contributors who are interested in adding information to the project at the
> moment (i.e. native speakers). Even *this* wouldn't be a problem.

As I've noted many times before, Latin alphabet is still taught in
private schools in Transnistria. Nobody is being forced to use
Cyrillic.

> The biggest problem that people don't agree with, however, is that the
> Moldovan Wikipedia is biscriptal, and in practice is Cyrillic-only
> (article-wise), when Cyrillic is neither the majority script, nor an
> official script, while also ideologically representing a symbol of past
> repression (we can't always look at things in a political vacuum).

No -- what it seems to me is that most people either don't like the
fact that Cyrillic is used *at all*, or that the name "Moldovan" is
used. Nobody seems to have any of those nuanced feelings you detail.

Mark


from_name: Ronald Chmara

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
On Mar 19, 2006, at 2:04 AM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> By the way, similarly to how Romanians like to equate Arizona with me,
> and thus anybody from Arizona must be me, perhaps we should do the
> same with Moldova? After all, Moldova's population is smaller by quite
> a bit, and internet access is less widespread in Moldova.

Cool! I'm from Romania!

Anyways, I'm a libertarian-socialist-american, and I generally take the
view that if person a thinks person b is being "oppressive" by
expressing themselves, the problem in that case is person a, not person
b.

Why not have a wikipedia written in, say, cyrillic, using phonetics, to
describe ami articles? If nothing else, people who are used to cyrillic
letters can learn to speak the language. Intentionally *supressing* the
use of cryllic, latin, or any other character set to write articles in
a wikipedia space is the problem, not whether or not people are
speaking english, but using cherokee (or whatever) letters.

So, some folks got suppressed, and were forced to use one group of
characters, so they are now arguing about forcing the use of another
group of characters? How enlightened of them. *sigh*

-Bop
--
Ronin Professional Consulting LLC
4245 NE Alberta Ct.
Portland, OR 97218
678-492-1046/503-282-1370


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
> > That's a rather inaccurate assessment. The official language of the
> > Republic of Moldova, which is recognised by every nation on earth, is
> > "Moldovan".
> >
>
> Ok, so how is it different to Romanian? According to [1] Moldovan "is
> essentially the same as Romanian". Let's call a spade a spade, mmkay?

And if you look at the detailed history of [1], it's one of many pages
where a small number of Romanian trolls made so much racket that they
scared everybody else off. None of the major pages about Moldova are
very good -- they are all written mostly by Romanians. Attempts of
Moldovans or others to make them more neutral and accurate are
constantly reverted, and the people who try to make things good are
insulted and harassed until they leave.

None of these people really care about Moldova other than as a topic
of nationalist sentiment, though -- none of them has ever really
contributed to the articles about places in Moldova, people in
Moldova, and things like that -- mostly just pages like [[Moldova]],
[[Moldovan culture]], [[Moldovan language]], etc.

If we had such poor function in articles related to Bosnia, IE, that
they were dominated by Serbian ultranationalist trolls, they would
very likely say "Bosnian is essentially the same as Serbian" -- there
*are* relatively few differences, many of them are artificial, etc.

That aside, the topic at hand isn't really whether or not we should
have a "Moldovan Wikipedia" so much as it is whether or not we should
host content in Cyrillic.

> Sure, but as Bogdan Giusca wrote:
> > NO MOLDOVANS requested or wanted this Wikipedia.
> >
> > We have *no* Transnistrian Moldovan contributors who want to write a
> > wikipedia in Cyrillic alphabet.
> >
> > Its only supporters are Node_ue (the kid in Arizona who barely speaks the
> > language) and a few Russians who support it for ideological/political
> > reasons and who can't contribute anyway, as they don't know the
> > language.
> >
> > There are no newspapers, no journals, no magazines, no books currently
> > published in Romanian Cyrillic in Transnistria. The children use
> > decades old schoolbooks from the time of the Soviet Union.
> >
> > Virtually everyone there would like to switch the education system to
> > the Latin alphabet, but dissent is not something easy to do in a
> > totalitarian regime: there are some Romanian/Moldovan Transnistrians
> > in prison since 1991 for political dissent.
> >
>
> So, they are obviously not doing it by choice, and none of them were
> contributing anyway.

Since, of course, the word of Bogdan Giushca is the word of God!

> > And if having mowp is a statement by WMF to the legitimacy of
> > Transnistria, isn't *not* having it equally POV in the opposite
> > direction? Note that I don't personally think it's POV.
> >
>
> No. NPOV says that we have to include all *majority* viewpoints, not
> *all* viewpoints. Including all viewpoints is /balanced/, but inclusion
> of a POV which is not in the majority (recogninsing the unrecognised
> language of an unrecognised nation) is itself POV. If the UN recognises
> Trasnistria overnight, and they declare that their offical language is
> Moldovan written in Cyrillic script, and Transnistrians start to ask for
> a Wikipedia in Moldovan-Cyrillic, they can have it. But not before.

So, is it POV that we have a Wikipedia in Corsican despite the fact
that there is no nation of Corsica recognised by the UN and that
Corsican is not the official language of any country?? No. What
matters is that PEOPLE USE IT. for their primary language

Mark

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia?

body:
By the way, similarly to how Romanians like to equate Arizona with me,
and thus anybody from Arizona must be me, perhaps we should do the
same with Moldova? After all, Moldova's population is smaller by quite
a bit, and internet access is less widespread in Moldova.

So all those Moldovans who voted (all whopping 7 of them!!) are
obviously just one person. Right, Bogdan?

Mark

On 19/03/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > That's a rather inaccurate assessment. The official language of the
> > > Republic of Moldova, which is recognised by every nation on earth, is
> > > "Moldovan".
> > >
> >
> > Ok, so how is it different to Romanian? According to [1] Moldovan "is
> > essentially the same as Romanian". Let's call a spade a spade, mmkay?
>
> And if you look at the detailed history of [1], it's one of many pages
> where a small number of Romanian trolls made so much racket that they
> scared everybody else off. None of the major pages about Moldova are
> very good -- they are all written mostly by Romanians. Attempts of
> Moldovans or others to make them more neutral and accurate are
> constantly reverted, and the people who try to make things good are
> insulted and harassed until they leave.
>
> None of these people really care about Moldova other than as a topic
> of nationalist sentiment, though -- none of them has ever really
> contributed to the articles about places in Moldova, people in
> Moldova, and things like that -- mostly just pages like [[Moldova]],
> [[Moldovan culture]], [[Moldovan language]], etc.
>
> If we had such poor function in articles related to Bosnia, IE, that
> they were dominated by Serbian ultranationalist trolls, they would
> very likely say "Bosnian is essentially the same as Serbian" -- there
> *are* relatively few differences, many of them are artificial, etc.
>
> That aside, the topic at hand isn't really whether or not we should
> have a "Moldovan Wikipedia" so much as it is whether or not we should
> host content in Cyrillic.
>
> > Sure, but as Bogdan Giusca wrote:
> > > NO MOLDOVANS requested or wanted this Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > We have *no* Transnistrian Moldovan contributors who want to write a
> > > wikipedia in Cyrillic alphabet.
> > >
> > > Its only supporters are Node_ue (the kid in Arizona who barely speaks the
> > > language) and a few Russians who support it for ideological/political
> > > reasons and who can't contribute anyway, as they don't know the
> > > language.
> > >
> > > There are no newspapers, no journals, no magazines, no books currently
> > > published in Romanian Cyrillic in Transnistria. The children use
> > > decades old schoolbooks from the time of the Soviet Union.
> > >
> > > Virtually everyone there would like to switch the education system to
> > > the Latin alphabet, but dissent is not something easy to do in a
> > > totalitarian regime: there are some Romanian/Moldovan Transnistrians
> > > in prison since 1991 for political dissent.
> > >
> >
> > So, they are obviously not doing it by choice, and none of them were
> > contributing anyway.
>
> Since, of course, the word of Bogdan Giushca is the word of God!
>
> > > And if having mowp is a statement by WMF to the legitimacy of
> > > Transnistria, isn't *not* having it equally POV in the opposite
> > > direction? Note that I don't personally think it's POV.
> > >
> >
> > No. NPOV says that we have to include all *majority* viewpoints, not
> > *all* viewpoints. Including all viewpoints is /balanced/, but inclusion
> > of a POV which is not in the majority (recogninsing the unrecognised
> > language of an unrecognised nation) is itself POV. If the UN recognises
> > Trasnistria overnight, and they declare that their offical language is
> > Moldovan written in Cyrillic script, and Transnistrians start to ask for
> > a Wikipedia in Moldovan-Cyrillic, they can have it. But not before.
>
> So, is it POV that we have a Wikipedia in Corsican despite the fact
> that there is no nation of Corsica recognised by the UN and that
> Corsican is not the official language of any country?? No. What
> matters is that PEOPLE USE IT. for their primary language
>
> Mark
>
> --
> "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: SPUI

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Blocked for a week for some harmless fun on a
 wikiproject page and a your mom joke

body:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SPUI#March_19
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#user:SPUI_again

User:Nlu (who I note is part of the CVU - that may be coloring his
outlook, as he presumably deals mostly with vandals) has blocked me for
a week for these edits:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_California_State_Highways&diff=next&oldid=43822380
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_California_State_Highways&diff=next&oldid=44465253
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SPUI&diff=prev&oldid=44465982
The first two are a bit of harmless fun on a project page. The third is
a simple inoffensive your mom joke as a response to an overreaction to
the first. I put {{unblock}} on my talk page, and he nowiki-ed it and
protected my talk page to prevent me from putting it back. Something
seems off here.


from_name: Philip Welch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Captcha word quiz

body:
On Mar 19, 2006, at 1:41 AM, Mark Gallagher wrote:

>> A little uncalled for? Especially when you're asking someone to go to
>>  a significant amount of additional effort to support a feature which
>>  is probably required by very few people?
>
> No.  There are legitimate reasons for people to browse without
> images on
> (being blind is a rather good one), and blaming the victim of our own
> carelessness is *not* appropriate.

There is a vast minority of people who can *never* browse with images
on.

>> Now, I'm not clear on whether this Captcha is displayed every time
>> you make any contribution, or only when registering an account, but
>> if it's the latter, then it seems almost *everyone* could manage to
>> get images to display once for the purpose. Blind people aside, of
>> course.
>
> People on old computers that can only run Lynx?

It's 2006. There are adolescents younger than "old computers that can
only run Lynx". People who do not upgrade their computers for twelve
years are not likely Wikipedia contributors. If you have an
idiosyncratic preference for 1980's-era technology, don't expect us
to indulge it--especially not at the cost of developer time and
effort that can be used to benefit the Wikipedia in far better ways.

CLI fanatics who prefer to only run Lynx are probably a bigger
constituency, but even that is an idiosyncratic preference we can't
be expected to indulge.

> People on poor connections?

A Wikipedia captcha page presumably loads two images: the Wikipedia
logo and the captcha itself. Perfectly feasible, if sluggish, on 28.8
dialup. If your connection is slower than that, you probably wouldn't
be contributing anyway.

> People in a work environment that enforces "no image
> browsing"?

People in such a work environment have that enforced policy because
they should be *working*, not goofing off on the Internet. If that's
a problem, their problem is with their employer, not us.

> Now, it may well be that we *need* to use captchas and other things
> that
> break in browsing environments other than
> the-best-browser-on-the-most-modern-OSes.  But tt's one thing to say
> "gee, we're sorry you can't register an account, but we have no
> choice,
> because of vandals and that", and another entirely to say "get a
> better
> browser and stop being difficult, you jerk".

"Try using computing technology that was invented within the past
half-decade" is not an unreasonable request. "Devote volunteer
developer time and effort building features so that a small number of
people using 1995-era technology can contribute to Wikipedia" *is* an
unreasonable request.

All a captcha requires is images and forms. I have a Power Mac 6100
from 1994 that had Netscape 4 on it, and probably Netscape 3 before
that. It supports images and forms perfectly well. If we need to use
things that require, at minimum, a 12 year old computer running 8-10
year old software, we're not the ones being unreasonable. If we wrote
the whole wiki in Flash or something, or used AJAX extensively, that
would be silly and unreasonable.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


subject: [WikiEN-l] Captcha word quiz

body:
On Mar 19, 2006, at 3:29 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 3/19/06, Philip Welch <wikipedia at philwelch.net> wrote:
>> year old software, we're not the ones being unreasonable. If we
>> ...used AJAX extensively, that
>> would be silly and unreasonable.
>
> No, that would be cool. I was kind of hoping someone would do that
> actually. You know how on various sites, you click a "reply" button,
> and an edit box just appears without redrawing the entire screen?
> That's how Mediawiki should work when you click "edit" on a section.
> You know how in Gmail, you can click "compose" and the compose screen
> comes up instantly? That's how Mediawiki should work when you click
> "history" on a page.
>
> Of course, a fall back method, such as that proposed by Gmail is only
> right and fitting. But AJAX would kick arse.

Well, exclusively I mean. Although AJAX is awesome, it shouldn't be
required.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
>
> What can I say, I'm a javascript n00bie :)

Well, you seem to know a couple of tricks I don't.  Like XPath, for
example.  I guess I should look into that some day...

> So this doesn't happen again, has anyone written a script/extension to
> display diffs in the history view? I'm about to attack that...

Hmm... I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  If you mean having the
old version views link to previous and next diffs, I believe Cryptic has
written something like that
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cryptic/oldrevisiontodiffs.js).  But
I suspect you mean something else entirely.

--
Ilmari Karonen


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
This is just a case of some crank writing some stuff on the internet
that nobody with any brains will believe.

Keith Henson told me once that he tried to sue the Larouchies for
defamation, but the judge through the case out because the Larouchies
had no credibility so there could have been no defamation.

The message is: until someone with some traction takes up this
nonsense, don't pay it any heed.


from_name: Robert Treat

subject: [Wikitech-l] Database redundancy

body:
On Thursday 16 March 2006 11:57, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 01:00:26PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > > What is the general consensus on Oracle?
> >
> > From what I hear on the interweb, they are devil-people who eat babies.
>

:-)

> I believe you mispelt "intarweb".
>
> (And "teh", come to think of it)
>
> How about PostGreSQL?
>

We've seen the PostgreSQL port tested with Slony replication in a simple
master->slave setup and it worked well on the surface (This was with the
wikipedia dump data, but I believe without binary data) but I don't want to
claim it was exhaustive or anything.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


subject: [WikiEN-l] Captcha word quiz

body:
On Mar 19, 2006, at 4:12 AM, Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

> I've been forced to use Lynx over sluggish SSH tunnels before. With
> image-only captchas I'd be locked out in the cold, dark and wet.

For long periods of time? As your sole internet connectiob? I don't
doubt it happens sometimes, but if it's not a regular occurrence,
using Lynx over slow SSH tunnels doesn't seem like the perfect moment
to go off and register a Wikipedia account.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

body:
On 3/18/06, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/17/06, Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
> > On 3/17/06, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 3/17/06, Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
> > > > CC-BY-ND is a fairly permissive license.  It's much more permissive
> > > > than, for instance, the license Wikimedia provides for its own logos.
> > > > By your rationale Wikimedia shouldn't be contributing to Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Oh come on. We all know this is a special situation. I am so *bored*
> > > with people saying, "But the Wikimedia logos are not licensed freely!"
> > > and implying that this is somehow has any implications for policy.
> > > They are the single and sole category of exception for a very
> > > straightforward and practical legal reason.
> > >
> > > FF
> >
> > My whole point is that there are exceptions.  I do disagree with you
> > though that Wikimedia is the *only* corporation which has practical
> > legal reasons not to license certain images under a free license,
> > though.
>
> I don't really know how you got the last sentence out of what I said,
> but nevertheless I suppose I will say that of course other
> corporations have practical reasons for not licensing things freely.
>
> FF

Then I really don't understand the point of your comment.

Anthony


from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
On 3/19/06, Ilmari Karonen <nospam at vyznev.net> wrote:
> Hmm... I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  If you mean having the
> old version views link to previous and next diffs, I believe Cryptic has
> written something like that
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cryptic/oldrevisiontodiffs.js).  But
> I suspect you mean something else entirely.

I mean displaying the key differences between one version and the next
actually on the history page itself. Schematically something like:

1 Jan 2006 Jimbo add source  '''+*Wikipedia.org'''
2 Jan 2006 JohnSmith change inflammatory wording -"clueless newbies"
+"newcomers"

etc.

Aso I'm subscribed to wikitech if you want to continue this...probably
more appropriate?

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Captcha word quiz

references:
<87pskns1ov.fsf@jidanni.org>
	<8417A523-0A82-4D6D-9A26-36DD40615283@philwelch.net>
	<441CCB04.7050403@student.canberra.edu.au>

body:
On 3/19/06, Mark Gallagher <m.g.gallagher at student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
> You need to approach Wikipedia in good faith, and the best way to
> establish that faith is to browse with Firefox.  It's the choice of Phil
> Welch, Mark Gallagher, and Willy on Wheels!
>
> Firefox!  It's what's for dinner.

A little uncalled for? Especially when you're asking someone to go to
a significant amount of additional effort to support a feature which
is probably required by very few people?

Now, I'm not clear on whether this Captcha is displayed every time you
make any contribution, or only when registering an account, but if
it's the latter, then it seems almost *everyone* could manage to get
images to display once for the purpose. Blind people aside, of course.

Steve


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Blocked for a week for some harmless fun on a
	wikiproject page and a your mom joke

body:
On 3/19/06, SPUI <drspui at gmail.com> wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_California_State_Highways&diff=next&oldid=44465253
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SPUI&diff=prev&oldid=44465982
> The first two are a bit of harmless fun on a project page. The third is
> a simple inoffensive your mom joke as a response to an overreaction to
> the first. I put {{unblock}} on my talk page, and he nowiki-ed it and
> protected my talk page to prevent me from putting it back. Something
> seems off here.

Ok, so you make a joke contribution. Someone, sensibly, reverts it.
Then you re-add it? With the word "fuck" in the edit summary? Why?
What were you thinking?

People even went out of their way to use the correct humour templates
to indicate that your jokes weren't funny and were getting on their
nerves. Your reaction? "Your mom's getting old." and "Hahahaha".

Seriously, why be annoying? And if people object to your being
annoying, why complain about it? Your user page is a pretty clear
demonstration that you *want* to be annoying and offensive. What else
do you expect to come from that?

Steve


from_name: Chris Jenkinson

body:
Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) wrote:
> The biggest problem that people don't agree with, however, is that the
> Moldovan Wikipedia is biscriptal, and in practice is Cyrillic-only
> (article-wise), when Cyrillic is neither the majority script, nor an
> official script, while also ideologically representing a symbol of past
> repression (we can't always look at things in a political vacuum).

That's a reason to add more content, not delete existing content.

Chris

--
Chris Jenkinson
chris at starglade.org

"Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource

body:
Hi,

Reading the answers, I deleted the works of Gide from the French Wikisource.

I am quite disappointed as I asked the very same question on Wikisource on
December 3rd, 2003, and no one has ever bothered to answer. 2003!!!

http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource_talk:Copyright

Actually, that's one of my first post on Wikisource and also one of the first
post on the whole project (the earliest post I could find is on November 24,
2003.)

Regards,

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclopedie libre
http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliotheque libre


subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource


from_name: Jonathan

subject: [Wikitech-l] Distributed process pool

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Jonathan wrote:
>
>
>>Is there a way analyze the wikipedia logs to figure out what processes
>>takes the most time?
>>
>>
>
>For some past stuff, see:
>http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ameta.wikimedia.org+profiling
>
>Domas and Tim are more recently playing with kcachegrind and things to get some
>even more fine-grained recordings and pretty visualizations.
>
That is helpful.

I've wrote a virtual machine myself, and it appears much faster than
Java and PHP. However, until a program like mediawiki is directly
translated and put under the same load, it is hard to boast the stats. I
do know from experience with vm development that there is room to
advance the technology in use. Java and PHP are popular but still behind
edge technology.

Jonathan


from_name: Mark Evans

subject: [Wikipedia-l] exicornt switch

body:
I disagree with Gerard about the approach to use here. To deny
thousands (millions?) of AOL users the right to contribute to
wikimedia projects because of some guy who tried to create a word
called "exicornt switch" would be a mistake. To justify it because we
supposedly receive very little benefit from AOL is typically elitist.
If said user were blanking out whole useful sections of wiktionary or
launching DOS attacks or something else that would affect the end user
(whom I doubt is affected by the addition of nonsense words such as
this), then maybe a temporary block would be in order. Until then, I
think wiktionary editors need to suck it up and delete these pages as
they come along. Wikipedia is great precisely because it strives to
not privilege one group of users over another. Let's keep it that way.

On 3/19/06, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> It may be disproportional, but the disruption of this vandal is also
> disproportional to the benefit we get from AOL. There is no other
> method available to prevent this sorry sod somewhat. It would help if
> we could put some bumbs on the road making vandalism less easy. It
> would also help if we could go to the police.
>
> Thanks,
>    GerardM
>
> On 3/19/06, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2006/3/15, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>:
> > > Seeing as the user comes from AOL, I can't help but agree.
> >
> > Unless AOL changed it policy recently, I think him being from AOL is a
> > good reason NOT to give a site-wide ban. AOL uses, or at least used to
> > use, variable IP-numbers. Any blocking would thus block other AOL
> > users just as likely as the perpetrator himself. And to block all of
> > AOL for this seems widely disproportional to me..
> >
> > --
> > Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
> > ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Vedant Lath

subject: [Foundation-l] academic inquiry msg

body:
I received the following email today:

----

Hello:

I am writing to you to ask you about your objectives as a Wikipedia
contributor.

My name is Mai Pattarawan.  I am an academic at the City University of Hong
Kong, researching Wikipedia.  Specifically I am interested in the objectives
and motivation of Wikipedians who take the time and make the effort to
contribute.

I would like to ask you just three questions and hope you will be able to
answer:

1. Why do you contribute to Wikipedia? Would you say it is a personal
matter, where you enjoy the opportunity to reveal your knowledge on a
subject, or a collaborative goal where you enjoy sharing knowledge with
others?

2. In what ways do you find your contributing to Wikipedia beneficial? (E.g.,
satisfaction of building the world's largest encyclopedia). Would you say
these benefits (personal or for the entire community) are felt right away,
or do you expect the benefits to arise as time goes by?

3. Do you expect that your contributing more to Wikipedia will lead to
others to contribute more?

Please just type your answers right behind the questions, or below, if you
like.

I am sending this email only to about 100 Wikipedians, so I very much hope
you will answer me and allow me to gain some insights.  I found you via
Google, by searching for Wikipedians who post their email address in
Wikipedia.

If you like to receive feedback about the results of this inquiry, please
let me know and I will email it to you.  Of course, yours and everyone
else's personal information will not be disclosed.  I will only share
non-personalized and summary information.

Thank you very much.

Regards,

Pattarawan (Mai) Prasarnphanich, PhD

Assistant Professor, Department of Information Systems
City University of Hong Kong

----

The IP address of the sender
(219.79.22.41<http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=219.79.22.41>)
is from Hong Kong, and AFAIK, China blocks wikimedia projects. So, how can a
person from Hong Kong possibly access wikipedia extensively so as to analyse
the contributions and nature of wikipedia? and moreover, he says that he is
sending it to only 100 wikipedians. This can make the result very different
from the actual fact.

should i participate in the enquiry?

i am also posting the msg. header as it may interest you:

X-Gmail-Received: 11b8396eb5824772da6c80e6cf069014796fc9e1
Delivered-To: vedant.lath at gmail.com
Received: by 10.66.255.10 with SMTP id c10cs16807ugi;
        Sat, 18 Mar 2006 22:12:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.35.89.10 with SMTP id r10mr351875pyl;
        Sat, 18 Mar 2006 22:12:14 -0800 (PST)
Return-Path: <pprasarn at cityu.edu.hk>
Received: from obav02.netvigator.com (obav02.netvigator.com [218.102.62.130])
        by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id v53si740577pyv.2006.03.18.22.12.11;
        Sat, 18 Mar 2006 22:12:14 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: neutral (gmail.com: 218.102.62.130 is neither permitted
nor denied by best guess record for domain of pprasarn at cityu.edu.hk)
Received: from obav02.netvigator.com (obav02.netvigator.com [127.0.0.1])
	by obav02.netvigator.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 866481B1605
	for <vedant.lath at gmail.com>; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 06:12:10 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from Mai ([219.79.22.41]) by imsm058dat.netvigator.com
          (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with ESMTP
          id <20060319061210.SCJT22606.imsm058dat.netvigator.com at Mai>
          for <vedant.lath at gmail.com>; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 14:12:10 +0800
Message-ID: <008801c64b1c$0e8ac220$6501a8c0 at Mai>
From: "Pattarawan (Mai) Prasarnphanich" <pprasarn at cityu.edu.hk>
To: <vedant.lath at gmail.com>
Subject: Academic inquiry on your objectives and motivation as Wikipedian
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 14:12:09 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0085_01C64B5F.1C4491F0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180

Vedant Lath
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vedant_lath
http://vedant.lath.in/icse/User:Vedanta


subject: [Foundation-l] academic inquiry msg


subject: [Wikipedia-l] academic inquiry msg


from_name: Will "Sceptre" Noble

subject: [WikiEN-l] From admin noticeboard

body:
http://www.geocities.com/georgereevesproject/wikipedia

Squid is just as worse....

On 3/19/06, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is just a case of some crank writing some stuff on the internet
> that nobody with any brains will believe.
>
> Keith Henson told me once that he tried to sue the Larouchies for
> defamation, but the judge through the case out because the Larouchies
> had no credibility so there could have been no defamation.
>
> The message is: until someone with some traction takes up this
> nonsense, don't pay it any heed.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
-Sceptre
http://tintower.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Retrieving article deleted for NN

body:
On 3/19/06, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com> wrote:
> One of the more popular orientation week events at my uni is the
> "Parkville Heritage Stroll", which samples some of the wonderful
> architecture in the suburb around the campus. Of course, all the
> lovely old buildings just happen to be pubs.

Lol...that is absolutely classic. I love it.

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Captcha word quiz

body:
On 3/19/06, Philip Welch <wikipedia at philwelch.net> wrote:
> year old software, we're not the ones being unreasonable. If we
>...used AJAX extensively, that
> would be silly and unreasonable.

No, that would be cool. I was kind of hoping someone would do that
actually. You know how on various sites, you click a "reply" button,
and an edit box just appears without redrawing the entire screen?
That's how Mediawiki should work when you click "edit" on a section.
You know how in Gmail, you can click "compose" and the compose screen
comes up instantly? That's how Mediawiki should work when you click
"history" on a page.

Of course, a fall back method, such as that proposed by Gmail is only
right and fitting. But AJAX would kick arse.

Steve


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Foundation-l] Wiki conferences this August, and logos (fwd msg)

body:
In a message dated 3/19/2006 12:11:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
datrio at gmail.com writes:

The  Polish Wikimedia Meetup will take place on August 30 - May 2,  AFAIR.

Thats a long meetup


from_name: Daniel R. Tobias

subject: [WikiEN-l] Help me!

body:
On 17 Mar 2006 at 12:15, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/17/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So we reorder it.
>
> I'm not stoping you.

Oh... you're not practicing techniques used to mine ore bodies by
creating underground "rooms" or stopes supported by surrounding
pillars of standing rock on Alphax?

(See [[Hard rock mining]])

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Help me!

body:
On 17 Mar 2006 at 16:34, "Steve Bennett" <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:

> Can I just make the comment that this thread shows why email is much
> better adapted to serious discussions that Wiki software is. Most of
> the comments on AfD are "Delete, per nom" or "Keep <insert brief spiel
> here>". Whereas on email people are actually able to develop ideas
> like "it's a copyvio" beyond that simple troublesome phrase.

At least there's no (easy) way to top-post with fullquotes within
wiki software, so that form of annoying idiocy isn' t present there.

> And to think there was a proposed policy to ban offsite discussion
> about Wikipedia...:)

Just how were they going to try to enforce such a ban?

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


body:
On 17 Mar 2006 at 17:32, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:

> I suspect numbers are a more important difference than softwear.

Softwear... is that something like underwear?

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/