from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikitech-l] Smarty template skins: Paddington and Montparnasse

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 15:33, tarquin wrote:
>
>
>>Yikes!
>>I'd better get back to work on designs!
>>
>>
>
>Mwooh-haa-haa-haaaaa! My evil plan for making other people work has come
>to fruition!
>
:(

>Hmm, that shouldn't be necessary...
>
>The simplest thing is to make the sidebar column a float, and give the
>footer a clear: both (see attached file for example). There are a couple
>problems with this, though: the sidebar has to come before the body in
>the source (which is bad for keyboard users & voice browsers).
>
and also for slow modems and text browsers -- this option is not good
for a default skin.

> Also if
>you have a clear inside the body div, it seems to zip all the way down
>to the bottom of the sidebar. Bah!
>
yuck!

>Another possibility is to use Javascript to reposition the sidebar.
>(Ewwww!)
>
Eww indeed!

>Or, of course, you could use a table. ;)
>
double ewww!

>>From a technical standpoint I have to say that right-handed sidebars are
>more problematic than left-handed sidebars; oversized images, tables, or
>preformatted text can overflow into the sidebar, either under/over it or
>pushing it offscreen. Putting the default sidebar on the left may be
>cleaner.
>
I agree.
I suggest we remove the user option for quickbar float / left / right.
It's a considerable amount of hassle to implement, since several things
in the HTML and the CSS depend on the quickbar alignment.
It would be easier IMO to make a second template with a right-aligned bar!
(Though pedias with right-to-left text would probably want a quickbar on
the right.)


list: textbook-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Textbook-l] Broken link on your website

body:
On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 12:05, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> I believe that that message was sent by a computer at
> InternetSeer.com, which someone signed up for. It
> finds broken links on normal websites, but it not fit
> for Wikis. I don't know who subscribed for it, so I
> can't unsubscribe.

No one "subscribed", it's automated spam.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikien-l

from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Bot for generating articles on cities in Israel

body:
--- Adam Raizen <araizen at newmail.net> wrote:
> I would like to use a bot to upload articles on
> cities in Israel based
> on information from Israel's Central Bureau of
> Statistics
> (http://www.cbs.gov.il), a la Rambot. You can see an
> example article at
> [[User:AdamRaizen/Ramla]]. Any objections or
> comments?
>
> --Adam Raizen

I wouldn't object, but the following part is a bit
unclear:

The ethnic makeup of the city is 80.5% Jewish and
other, and 20.0% Arab (15.4% Muslim and 4.0%
Christian). There are 450 new immigrants.

Also, I would like to know how this bot handles it
when articles are already there but it wants to put
this data there.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
--- james duffy <jtdirl at hotmail.com> wrote:
> [[User BuddhaInside]]'s antics on wiki are becoming
> a serious cause for
> concern.
>
>
>
> 1. His has devoted much of his time to creating
> [[List of . . . ]] pages,
> and when his generally ridiculed pages are deleted,
> he tries to create yet
> more lists or bizarre renamed version of the list
> proposed for deletion.
>
> For example, he created a [[List of heterosexuals]]
> which was generally
> dismissed as nonsensical. When 28 people voted on
> it, after it was listed on
> the VfD, 20 voted to delete (accompanied with
> scathing comments about the
> list), 1 said 'delete or rename', 7 said keep. The
> debate went on for eight
> days. When it finally was deleted, he went
> ballistic, claiming that there
> was no consensus for its deletion (71%, or 75%,
> depending on how you
> interpret the votes, said delete! No consensus???)
>
> He then tried to edit the [[Consensus]] page to
> redefine what a consensus
> is, forcing the comment Angela,
>
> Changing the definition on the [[consensus]] page
> won't help Buddha . . .
> [[User:Angela|Angela]] 18:04, Sep 14, 2003 (UTC)
>
> He also created *  [[List of heterosexuals]] not
> notable in connection with
> their heterosexuality]]
> *  [[List of heterosexuals not noted for their
> heterosexuality]] (I deleted
> these on the 6th. They were simply an attempt  by
> him to create alternative
> pages with the same contents as [[List of
> heterosexuals]] but without the
> VfD boilerplate reference.)
>
> His latest lists are [[List of famous black people]]
> and [[List of famous
> white people]] which again have been listed by
> people on the VfD page. He is
> the only defender of the lists. Among the criticism
> made is
>
> # This is getting ridiculous. The next thing will be
> 'people with two arms',
> or 'list of people without disabilities'. Please
> delete these stupid lists.
> Mintguy 18:51, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)
>
> The [[Protected Page]] contains -
>
>     * List of famous heterosexual people. Blanked
> and protected. Repeatedly
> deleted page that keeps being resurrected. Angela
> 02:51, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)
> o This page had a new title and new content, making
> it completely distinct
> from any prior page. In addition, consensus was NOT
> reached on the deletion
> of the prior page. -BuddhaInside
>
> Today the same page contains:
>
> * [[List of famous white people]], [[List of famous
> black people]] - more
> trolling attempts by User:BuddhaInside; listed on
> Vfd. - Hephaestos 18:57,
> 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)
>
> 2. He is determined to silence any comments on his
> actions by deleting /all/
> comments on his talk page, even though he is
> involved in many controversies
> that people wish to ask him about. Erik summed up
> the situation on his talk
> page with the following:
>
> BuddhaInside, refusing to communicate with other
> users on your talk page by
> consistently blanking it is not in the spirit of
> Wikiquette and WikiLove,
> which are fundamental concepts of the Wikipedia
> community. Nor is your
> behavior on the silly List of heterosexuals. You are
> welcome to make
> contributions to Wikipedia, but if you continue with
> your current trolling,
> it is likely that you will end up being banned.
> Please focus on useful
> contributions instead of alienating other
> contributors. Thank you! Note that
> this page might be protected if you continue to
> blank it, to guarantee that
> at least these messages are a matter of public
> record.?Eloquence 00:45, Sep
> 7, 2003 (UTC)
>
> His response, as with every other comment, was to
> blank it.
>
> His constant creating of frankly ridiculous pages,
> largely as revenge for
> the deletion of his beloved [[List of
> heterosexuals]], is getting absurd and
> annoying many users who find themselves undoing his
> nonsense and cleaning up
> his mess. His refusal to tolerate comments on his
> talk page is outrageous.
> Among users who have criticised his behavour on a
> range of pages are
>
> Ark30inf
> Eloquence
> Angela
> Martin
> Hephaestos
> Tweak
> Wiwaxia
>
> Unwilling though I am to contemplate it, I can't
> help wondering if this
> user, with his preoccupation with lists and with
> provocatively challenging
> people, and with blanking his page, is merely a
> troll.  I can think of at
> least two trolls in the past who specialised in list
> making and blanking
> their user pages. At the very least, if BuddhaInside
> is a /real/ but
> seriously misguided contributor, he needs to be told
> forceably and
> unambiguously by the community that his behaviour is
> unacceptable and /has/
> to change if he wants to remain a contributor.
>
> JT

Yes, I agree that BuddhaInside is misguided, and
possibly a troll. But we shouldn't immediately ban
him. I think that it is a real possibility that he
merely has a misunderstanding of the policies of
Wikipedia. I could see how an honest
misinterperatation of the WikiLove page could lead
someone to believe that we shouldn't critisize people.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Export/import via XML wrapper

body:
For inter-wiki moves (to meta or sep11), bot-runners, and spot-backups,
it would be useful to have a way to grab individual pages in a
machine-friendly package, which can be easily popped into or out of
another wiki or other software.

Sample and (perhaps?) discussion of proposed XML wrapper format:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_import/export

I've check in an export function to the dev branch as SpecialExport.php.
Live demo:
http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export

Current revision only:
http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export/Wiki_table_test

With history:
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Export&action=submit&pages=Wiki_table_test

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

body:
Could anyone knowledgable help us here ?

As a reminder, we were told that, being hosted on a
californian server, we had to respect US law, and not
everyone understand american law :-)

Could anyone explain to us what is fair use for images
?

How precisely it applies. On which types of pictures.
What it implies. Which are the limits. And when we
should consider a picture is fair use and as such may
be inserted. Or not.

I am not looking for an extensive discussion over the
merit of including fair use images or not :-)

Just on which principles we can base our decision
making over keeping or not keeping the images

-------

As a second point, I would like to know precisely why
DW was hard banned.

Anthere

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] map software

body:
Because both ImageMagick and libart are buggy, this version uses
a hybrid soltution where all polygons are painted using libart,
and everything else using ImageMagick. Yuck.

libart is available from Ruby/Gnome2

http://taw.pl.eu.org/~taw/earth.mng (800kB) or
http://taw.pl.eu.org/~taw/earth.gif (2MB) show animation of rotating Earth.
Of course equal-area projection is particularly badly suited for that,
but it looks cool anyway ;)

The following things are cached:
* bluemarble
* libart generated polygons
* rivers
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Export/import via XML wrapper

body:
On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 17:53, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:
> If you really want it to make machine-friendly the wiki-markup
> must be "xmlized" as well,

No, this is solely for transferring the wiki markup from place to place;
consider it opaque data with some headers.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 18:02, Angela wrote:
> After being told that he could not have his user page
> deleted without good reason on both
> [[Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be deleted]] and on
> his talk page, BuddhaInside started an edit war at
> [[Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be deleted]].

This seems like a remarkable waste of time. Why _not_ delete the pages?
They're not articles, they're user pages and that user requested their
deletion.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Export/import via XML wrapper

references:
<1063584936.5311.15.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<1ga1t1f9yduws$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>
	<1063589072.5311.18.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<zoh4na0byvc9$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>

body:
On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 18:34, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:24:32 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 17:53, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:
> >> If you really want it to make machine-friendly the wiki-markup
> >> must be "xmlized" as well,
> >
> > No, this is solely for transferring the wiki markup from place to place;
> > consider it opaque data with some headers.
>
> So what exactly was meant with "which can be easily popped into
> or out of [...] other software" in your original post?

You _do_ know that software can be written that can work with something
call "text", right? :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] map software

body:
On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 05:59:05PM +0200, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> Because both ImageMagick and libart are buggy, this version uses
> a hybrid soltution where all polygons are painted using libart,
> and everything else using ImageMagick. Yuck.
>
> libart is available from Ruby/Gnome2

Correction - libart is available separately as libart-ruby in Debian (at least sid)


subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 20:31, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Brion-
> > This seems like a remarkable waste of time. Why _not_ delete the pages?
> > They're not articles, they're user pages and that user requested their
> > deletion.
>
> The user in question is a troll and should be banned.

Which rather simplifies the question; not much need for their user
pages!

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Alex T.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

body:
From: "Anthere" <anthere6 at yahoo.com>

> Could anyone knowledgable help us here ?

I volunteer to try, but remember this is not legal advice
even though IAAL.

> As a reminder, we were told that, being hosted on a
> californian server, we had to respect US law, and not
> everyone understand american law :-)
>
> Could anyone explain to us what is fair use for images

There is a page on fair use in the English Wikipedia
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
>
> How precisely it applies. On which types of pictures.
> What it implies. Which are the limits. And when we
> should consider a picture is fair use and as such may
> be inserted. Or not.

Fair use is a defense. It applies to _each_ _use_ differently.
It depends on the picture and where you got it from and
how it is used, i.e. why is it being included in the article.

At the bottom of the Fair Use page is a checklist:
from Purdue University:
http://www.copyright.iupui.edu/checklist.pdf
I think this is a useful checklist for a fair use analysis.

Going through this analysis can give one some comfort
about the potential finding of fair use (remember it is
only through judicial action that fair use is determined,
we can only guess on it). It is my suggestion that
such an analysis be put on the page description and
added in each article that the image is used (the fair
use of an image in one article may not be fair use in
a different article). I suggest describing the analysis
in the article in hidden text i.e. <!-- The use of
image.jpg which is otherwise copyright is fair use
for the following four reasons.... --> This will hopefully
remain part of the article and anyone who uses the
article under the GFDL can determine if their use
is different that the use claimed by Wikipedia.
It is up to them to make their own determination
of fair use. A fair use is not necessarily transferrable
under the GFDL.

> I am not looking for an extensive discussion over the
> merit of including fair use images or not :-)
>
> Just on which principles we can base our decision
> making over keeping or not keeping the images

I've recently tried to make sure that the list of the four
major factors that apply to fair use determinations is
explained to some degree in the [[fair use]] article.

Unfortunately Anthere it is not always a clear determination.
Not all judges/juries apply the law the same way.
It is a factual determination based upon a total
appreciation of the evidence as presented during the
proceedings. Lawyer may also, when giving an
opinion, differ. This is why some prefer to get permission
and even pay a small royalty when using something
that might even qualify as fair use. It is better to pay
that royalty than to pay the costs of defending fair
use in court.

I do not mean this to be evasive, but some people talk
about fair use as if it can be defined easily.
See http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyright_issues
and
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Image_use_policy/copyright

I do not agree. I think that it cannot be clearly defined
and that it is not a given that fair use on Wikipedia
means that any subsequent sublicensee
will automatically be able to claim fair use on the GFDL.
This is the major problem when it comes to fair use on Wikipedia
one cannot say that an image is fair use, one can only say
"Use of this image on Wikipedia is fair use, that fair use may not
be transferable under the GFDL."

Alex756


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] map software

body:
On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 08:14:43PM +0200, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 05:59:05PM +0200, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> > Because both ImageMagick and libart are buggy, this version uses
> > a hybrid soltution where all polygons are painted using libart,
> > and everything else using ImageMagick. Yuck.
> >
> > libart is available from Ruby/Gnome2
>
> Correction - libart is available separately as libart-ruby in Debian (at least sid)

Not included in "testing" branch of debian. But you only have to install some 30
packages and then it smoothly compiles.

http://wikiatlas.mormo.org/debian/

JeLuF


subject: [Wikitech-l] map software

body:
On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 09:16:09PM +0200, Jens Frank wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 08:14:43PM +0200, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> > On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 05:59:05PM +0200, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> > > Because both ImageMagick and libart are buggy, this version uses
> > > a hybrid soltution where all polygons are painted using libart,
> > > and everything else using ImageMagick. Yuck.
> > >
> > > libart is available from Ruby/Gnome2
> >
> > Correction - libart is available separately as libart-ruby in Debian (at least sid)
>
> Not included in "testing" branch of debian. But you only have to install some 30
> packages and then it smoothly compiles.
>
> http://wikiatlas.mormo.org/debian/

Just get the debs, doh.

Oh, and:
--- hybrid2.rb.orig     2003-09-14 20:19:08.000000000 +0200
+++ hybrid2.rb  2003-09-14 20:19:13.000000000 +0200
@@ -642,7 +642,7 @@

 if $config.type_bm
 blue_marble_cache_file = "blue_marble_cache/" + $proj.cache_key + ".ppm"
-    raise "Blue Marble only supports rectangular maps" unless $polygon.shape == "rectangle"
+    raise "Blue Marble only supports rectangular maps" unless $proj.shape == "rectangle"
     system ("./project " + $proj.cmd + " >#{blue_marble_cache_file}") unless File.exist? blue_marble_cache_file
     image = ImageList.new(blue_marble_cache_file)
 else

or something like that :)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

body:
On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 17:18, Anthere wrote:
> Could anyone explain to us what is fair use for images
> ?
[snip]
> As a second point, I would like to know precisely why
> DW was hard banned.

Just to provide context for those who haven't been following the French
Wikipedia; DW/Black Widow/Ron Davis/Elliot/Olga Biteyerkokoff/Jacques
Delson/ChuckM/Joe Canuck/Sue Michael Canuck has been contributing under
the username JacquesD there.

(Or at least, someone in the same town with the same ISP, using a
similar name to one of the earlier pseudos, working in the same
subjects, and making the same noises about copyright and
"discrimination". Doesn't the game get old after a while?)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] ebabylone and wikipedia content

body:
Anthere wrote:
>Some editors estimate that according to GFDL'S,
>there should obligatorily be a link to the original
>article, to preserve the access of the history, to
>check the authorship of the article.  Is this true?

In the absence of an actual list of authors, yes. It looks like they are using
the printable version of fr.wikipedia's articles in their near real time
feed. If that is true then all one of our developers has to do is make the
URL text into clickable hypertext. That is something we should do anyway
since it makes it easier for people to use our content while at the same time
following our interpretation of the GNU FDL.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


body:
Brion wrote:
>No one "subscribed", it's automated spam.

I just set this list to only accept email from subscribed list members -
everything else will now be held indefinitely until a list admin accepts or
rejects the message.

Sorry for the inconvenience folks - I was on holiday.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Incremental backup

body:
Following is a discussion which started on the village pump, but I thought
it would be more appropriate to continue it here, considering the
closely-related discussion which has been going on here.

------------------------------
[Start village pump quote]

Once the full Wikipedia is downloaded, can smaller periodic updates covering
new stuff and changes be obtained and used to synch the local? --[[User:Ted
Clayton|Ted Clayton]] 04:26, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

:No, you can't. I've been thinking the same thing myself. I think we need
to:

:*Allow incremental updates for all types of download
:*Allow bulk image downloads
:*Package a stripped-down version of the old table in with the cur dumps,
where the revision history (users, times, comments etc.) is included, but
the old text itself is not
:*Develop a method of compressing the old table so that the similarity
between adjacent revisions can be used to full advantage

: -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 04:38, Sep 13, 2003 (UTC)

Would it be easier to have incremental updates on something like a
subscription basis? The server packages dailies or weeklies and shoots them
out to everyone on the list? During off hours, mass-mail fashion?

Can you suggest sources or search-terms for table manipulations treatments,
as background for stripping and compressing? --[[User:Ted Clayton|Ted
Clayton]] 03:14, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[End village pump quote]
-------------------------------

Regarding sending them to a list: do you mean by email? That would depend on
size -- anything more than a couple of megs a week and we'll max out
people's inboxes. I think we'd be better off making available a series of
patches available via HTTP, and provide a client tool (probably just a PHP
script) to download the required patches and merge them into the local
database.

Regarding sources: I'm not aware of anyone doing exactly this task before,
although I haven't really looked. I imagine we would just roll our own.
Perhaps dumping the data using the mysql client, then doing some text
processing and finally running it through gzip. Assuming the text processing
can be done fast enough, a PHP script would probably be best for this part
too, for consistency.

We could use the binary log, like Brion suggested. I've been meaning to
reply to that message. We can convert the log to runnable SQL using
"mysqlbinlog". Then we'd have to parse each query to determine what table it
writes to, just like what MySQL slaves do when tables are excluded. It
wouldn't be perfectly efficient, because multiple writes to the same row
would all be included. So a cur dump might have 100 copies of the village
pump in it. But that's better than including 100,000 unchanged articles. If
we get ambitious we can always filter out the redundant writes.

-- Tim Starling <t`starling`physics`unimelb`edu`au>


body:
Adam Raizen wrote:
>I would like to use a bot to upload articles on
>cities in Israel based on information from Israel's
>Central Bureau of Statistics (http://www.cbs.gov.il),
>a la Rambot. You can see an example article at
>[[User:AdamRaizen/Ramla]]. Any objections or
>comments?

I would like to see a demo article of what the output of the bot will be. We
can then discus ways to improve the content/format.

Also from
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots

For the current situation, the burden of proof is on the bot-maker to
demonstrate the following:
The bot must be useful
The bot must be harmless
The bot must not be a server hog
The bot must be approved by someone

-- mav


from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
[[User BuddhaInside]]'s antics on wiki are becoming a serious cause for
concern.

1. His has devoted much of his time to creating [[List of . . . ]] pages,
and when his generally ridiculed pages are deleted, he tries to create yet
more lists or bizarre renamed version of the list proposed for deletion.

For example, he created a [[List of heterosexuals]] which was generally
dismissed as nonsensical. When 28 people voted on it, after it was listed on
the VfD, 20 voted to delete (accompanied with scathing comments about the
list), 1 said 'delete or rename', 7 said keep. The debate went on for eight
days. When it finally was deleted, he went ballistic, claiming that there
was no consensus for its deletion (71%, or 75%, depending on how you
interpret the votes, said delete! No consensus???)

He then tried to edit the [[Consensus]] page to redefine what a consensus
is, forcing the comment Angela,

Changing the definition on the [[consensus]] page won't help Buddha . . .
[[User:Angela|Angela]] 18:04, Sep 14, 2003 (UTC)

He also created *  [[List of heterosexuals]] not notable in connection with
their heterosexuality]]
*  [[List of heterosexuals not noted for their heterosexuality]] (I deleted
these on the 6th. They were simply an attempt  by him to create alternative
pages with the same contents as [[List of heterosexuals]] but without the
VfD boilerplate reference.)

His latest lists are [[List of famous black people]] and [[List of famous
white people]] which again have been listed by people on the VfD page. He is
the only defender of the lists. Among the criticism made is

# This is getting ridiculous. The next thing will be 'people with two arms',
or 'list of people without disabilities'. Please delete these stupid lists.
Mintguy 18:51, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The [[Protected Page]] contains -

    * List of famous heterosexual people. Blanked and protected. Repeatedly
deleted page that keeps being resurrected. Angela 02:51, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)
o This page had a new title and new content, making it completely distinct
from any prior page. In addition, consensus was NOT reached on the deletion
of the prior page. -BuddhaInside

Today the same page contains:

* [[List of famous white people]], [[List of famous black people]] - more
trolling attempts by User:BuddhaInside; listed on Vfd. - Hephaestos 18:57,
14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

2. He is determined to silence any comments on his actions by deleting /all/
comments on his talk page, even though he is involved in many controversies
that people wish to ask him about. Erik summed up the situation on his talk
page with the following:

BuddhaInside, refusing to communicate with other users on your talk page by
consistently blanking it is not in the spirit of Wikiquette and WikiLove,
which are fundamental concepts of the Wikipedia community. Nor is your
behavior on the silly List of heterosexuals. You are welcome to make
contributions to Wikipedia, but if you continue with your current trolling,
it is likely that you will end up being banned. Please focus on useful
contributions instead of alienating other contributors. Thank you! Note that
this page might be protected if you continue to blank it, to guarantee that
at least these messages are a matter of public record.?Eloquence 00:45, Sep
7, 2003 (UTC)

His response, as with every other comment, was to blank it.

His constant creating of frankly ridiculous pages, largely as revenge for
the deletion of his beloved [[List of heterosexuals]], is getting absurd and
annoying many users who find themselves undoing his nonsense and cleaning up
his mess. His refusal to tolerate comments on his talk page is outrageous.
Among users who have criticised his behavour on a range of pages are

Ark30inf
Eloquence
Angela
Martin
Hephaestos
Tweak
Wiwaxia

Unwilling though I am to contemplate it, I can't help wondering if this
user, with his preoccupation with lists and with provocatively challenging
people, and with blanking his page, is merely a troll.  I can think of at
least two trolls in the past who specialised in list making and blanking
their user pages. At the very least, if BuddhaInside is a /real/ but
seriously misguided contributor, he needs to be told forceably and
unambiguously by the community that his behaviour is unacceptable and /has/
to change if he wants to remain a contributor.

JT

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


body:
I looked over the example and think it looks OK. LDan has a couple good
questions though.

--mav


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageDe.php

body:
Hello,

the same procedure than every time: short after getting some
translations in the CVS, there appear new proposals and phrases :)

If someone find some spare time: LanguageDe.php V1.26 awaits the stable
tree.

Greetings, The translator Smurf  ;)
--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:29:37 -0700
From: Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour
To: Discussion list for English-language Wikipedia
	<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Message-ID:
<1063589377.5317.21.camel at frank.vibber.org>
Content-Type: text/plain

On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 18:02, Angela wrote:
>> After being told that he could not have his user
page
>> deleted without good reason on both
>> [[Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be deleted]] and
on
>> his talk page, BuddhaInside started an edit war at
>> [[Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be deleted]].

>This seems like a remarkable waste of time. Why _not_
>delete the pages?
>They're not articles, they're user pages and that
>user requested their
>deletion.

Seconded. As mentionned in the title, these are
"personal" pages. Or not ?

The "public state record" is not lost. It may always
be seen by a sysop as a deleted page, and undeleted if
necessary.

So what is the point in refusing the deletion of a
*personal* page ? How wikilove is it to irritate
someone for such an unimportant point ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] map software

body:
It fixes some bugs in last tarball and supports azimuthal projection from equator and poles.

One of the problems is that optimal settings for Latin script
and for CJK are very different. I'll probably add a latin/cjk switch.

eu.map is not so bad map of Europe in Polish. Labels for really small countries
(below 100 pixels on the map) are not displayed.
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from_name: Angela

subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
After being told that he could not have his user page
deleted without good reason on both
[[Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be deleted]] and on
his talk page, BuddhaInside started an edit war at
[[Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be deleted]]. This
led to Hephaestos protecting the page. I left a
message on the page in case others needed pages
deleted and did not know how to go about it. My
message states:

*This page is currently protected* due to repeated
vandalism. If you have a *genuine* reason for
requesting a personal *subpage* of yours be deleted,
you are advised to contact an administrator directly
or to leave a request at the Village pump.

Following this, BuddhaInside started an edit war at
the village pump constantly requesting his pages be
deleted. I explained to him on his talk page that only
the deletion of subpages would occur, and this was not
the appropriate forum for requests for user pages to
be deleted. He immediately blanked his talk page and
carried on the edit war.

The following is the edit history up until the point
that I went to sleep;

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:48, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:47, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:44, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:43, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Jiang)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:42, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:41, Sep 15, 2003 . . Jiang
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:41, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:40, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:39, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:38, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:38, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:37, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:36, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:35, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:35, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:34, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:32, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:31, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:31, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:30, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:29, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:26, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:25, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:23, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:21, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:20, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:18, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:17, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Angela)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:16, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:15, Sep 15, 2003 . . Angela
(Reverted to last edit by Anthere)

# (cur) (last) . . M 01:13, Sep 15, 2003 . .
BuddhaInside

?

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk


from_name: Adam Raizen

body:
I would like to use a bot to upload articles on cities in Israel based
on information from Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics
(http://www.cbs.gov.il), a la Rambot. You can see an example article at
[[User:AdamRaizen/Ramla]]. Any objections or comments?

--Adam Raizen


from_name: Lothar Kimmeringer

body:
Hello Brion,

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:15:36 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:

> For inter-wiki moves (to meta or sep11), bot-runners, and spot-backups,
> it would be useful to have a way to grab individual pages in a
> machine-friendly package, which can be easily popped into or out of
> another wiki or other software.
>
> Sample and (perhaps?) discussion of proposed XML wrapper format:
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_import/export

If you really want it to make machine-friendly the wiki-markup
must be "xmlized" as well, so [[revision]] should be changed
to something like <link type="wiki">revision</link> (and type="external"
if it's an external link). The same should happen with

> Current revision only:
> http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export/Wiki_table_test

tables of course and other things like lists, pictures, ...

As well there should be a XSL that is missing at the moment as well.

... but I like the idea ;-) At the end we can offer a web-service-
interface for queries from other systems, e.g. for meta-crawlers
using the Google- and Wikipedia-API for collecting informations
about a specific topic.

Regards, Lothar
--
Lothar Kimmeringer                E-Mail: spamfang at kimmeringer.de
               PGP-encrypted mails preferred (Key-ID: 0x8BC3CD81)

Always remember: The answer is forty-two, there can only be wrong
                 questions!


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
Brion-
> This seems like a remarkable waste of time. Why _not_ delete the pages?
> They're not articles, they're user pages and that user requested their
> deletion.

The user in question is a troll and should be banned.

Regards,

Erik


references:
<1063584936.5311.15.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<1ga1t1f9yduws$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>
	<1063589072.5311.18.camel@frank.vibber.org>

body:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:24:32 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 17:53, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:
>> If you really want it to make machine-friendly the wiki-markup
>> must be "xmlized" as well,
>
> No, this is solely for transferring the wiki markup from place to place;
> consider it opaque data with some headers.

So what exactly was meant with "which can be easily popped into
or out of [...] other software" in your original post?

Regards, Lothar
--
Lothar Kimmeringer                E-Mail: spamfang at kimmeringer.de
               PGP-encrypted mails preferred (Key-ID: 0x8BC3CD81)

Always remember: The answer is forty-two, there can only be wrong
                 questions!


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: Export/import via XML wrapper

references:
<1063584936.5311.15.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<1ga1t1f9yduws$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>
	<1063589072.5311.18.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<zoh4na0byvc9$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>
	<1063589798.5311.24.camel@frank.vibber.org>

body:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:36:38 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 18:34, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:
>>
>> So what exactly was meant with "which can be easily popped into
>> or out of [...] other software" in your original post?
>
> You _do_ know that software can be written that can work with something
> call "text", right? :)

Of course, but the text is not only text, it contains more
(links, lists, tables, ...)

So if the XML also contains these informations as well, other
software can do much more without learning the whole Wiki-Markup
like creating links into the corresponding Wikipedia for
references in the text, ... (as already mentioned in my
first answer).

Regards, Lothar
--
Lothar Kimmeringer                E-Mail: spamfang at kimmeringer.de
               PGP-encrypted mails preferred (Key-ID: 0x8BC3CD81)

Always remember: The answer is forty-two, there can only be wrong
                 questions!


subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:18:03 +0100
> From: "james duffy" <jtdirl at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Message-ID:
> <BAY1-F37sRC66IMSHkk0001d4af at hotmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> [[User BuddhaInside]]'s antics on wiki are becoming
> a serious cause for
> concern.

> BuddhaInside, refusing to communicate with other
> users on your talk page by
> consistently blanking it is not in the spirit of
> Wikiquette and WikiLove,
> which are fundamental concepts of the Wikipedia
> community.

Come to think about it, I was deeply troubled the day
I left a message to Evercat

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk%3AEvercat

and saw him just blanking his talk page soonafter with
no comment.

I first thought that a bit rude. Then I looked at the
history of his talk page, and saw he was used to do
that with every comment left to him.

Hence, I just thought it was his personal choice to do
so. Just as others refactor comments, or add
signatures to unsigned comments left on their pages.

Just different behaviors and approaches. User pages
where pov and different behaviors are just fine.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


references:
<1063584936.5311.15.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<1ga1t1f9yduws$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>
	<1063589072.5311.18.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<zoh4na0byvc9$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>
	<1063589798.5311.24.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<oii1ts3nin85$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>

body:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:49:44 +0200, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:

> So if the XML also contains these informations as well, other
> software can do much more without learning the whole Wiki-Markup
> like creating links into the corresponding Wikipedia for
> references in the text, ... (as already mentioned in my
> first answer).

Just saw that this is already a project on meta.wikipedia:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_DTD
So there will be two versions of XML for Wikipedia? ;-)

Regards, Lothar
--
Lothar Kimmeringer                E-Mail: spamfang at kimmeringer.de
               PGP-encrypted mails preferred (Key-ID: 0x8BC3CD81)

Always remember: The answer is forty-two, there can only be wrong
                 questions!


body:
--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Adam Raizen wrote:
> >I would like to use a bot to upload articles on
> >cities in Israel based on information from Israel's
>
> >Central Bureau of Statistics
> (http://www.cbs.gov.il),
> >a la Rambot. You can see an example article at
> >[[User:AdamRaizen/Ramla]]. Any objections or
> >comments?
>
> I would like to see a demo article of what the
> output of the bot will be. We
> can then discus ways to improve the content/format.
>
> Also from
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots
>
> For the current situation, the burden of proof is on
> the bot-maker to
> demonstrate the following:
> The bot must be useful
> The bot must be harmless
> The bot must not be a server hog
> The bot must be approved by someone
>
> -- mav

A demo article is at [[User:AdamRaizen/Ramla]].
LDan

__________________________________
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body:
> No one "subscribed", it's automated spam.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

According to their website, you can either pay $100 a
year for the service or take a bunch of surveys.
Someone must have signed up.
LDan

__________________________________
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from_name: Merritt L. Perkins

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

body:
I am confused by the discussions of,? Fair Use?.  What does the term
mean? What are they talking about?
If I describe an automobile as ? A motor vehicle for transporting
people."  you know that it is not an advertising sign or some kind of
computer program.  You can proceed to add more details.
Does? Fair Use? mean the use that a program is intended for; the use that
a person can properly make of a program?
What does the acronym GFDL stand for?
This was dictated with Dragon NaturallySpeaking 7 Preferred and read by
Jennifer.
                    Merritt L. Perkins
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body:
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:24:13 -0700
From: Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
Anthere wrote:
>Some editors estimate that according to GFDL'S,
>there should obligatorily be a link to the original
>article, to preserve the access of the history, to
>check the authorship of the article.  Is this true?

In the absence of an actual list of authors, yes. It
looks like they
are using
the printable version of fr.wikipedia's articles in
their near real
time
feed. If that is true then all one of our developers
has to do is make
the
URL text into clickable hypertext. That is something
we should do
anyway
since it makes it easier for people to use our content
while at the
same time
following our interpretation of the GNU FDL.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

-----

Thanks for the answer Mav.

Yes, the webmaster is using wikipedia real time for
now. The search feature is ours (note that should he
have a lot of traffic, this would directly sucking up
our resources). The retrieval for display is done real
time as well from what I can guess. I think it wrong
:-) rather parasitic behavior. But he mentionned he
was currently working to install our database directly
on his site.

If I understood well, you say the local link or adress
to each article should be displayed. You say it is our
"problem" if the urls of each article are badly
displayed and broken. So we can't complain about that.

I will remember that point for further cases. In this
one, I think the webmaster is well meaning. Each
article displays a link to each article (even if
broken), mentions the GFDL, and now added direct and
working link to wikipedia on the main encyclopedia
access page on his website.

Thanks

__________________________________
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use (Alex, Brion et Tarquin)

body:
From: "Alex T." <alex756 at nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

>> Could anyone knowledgable help us here ?

>I volunteer to try, but remember this is not legal
advice
>even though IAAL.

>There is a page on fair use in the English Wikipedia
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

>[snip]

>Alex756

Ok. I will read all that carefully, consider options
and try to write down something decent on the topic.
Thanks a lot for the detailed answer Alex

------------------------------

From: Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

>>On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 17:18, Anthere wrote:
>> Could anyone explain to us what is fair use for
images
>> ?
>>[snip]
>> As a second point, I would like to know precisely
why
>> DW was hard banned.

>Just to provide context for those who haven't been
following the French
>Wikipedia; DW/Black Widow/Ron Davis/Elliot/Olga
Biteyerkokoff/Jacques
>Delson/ChuckM/Joe Canuck/Sue Michael Canuck has been
contributing under
>the username JacquesD there.

>(Or at least, someone in the same town with the same
ISP, using a
>similar name to one of the earlier pseudos, working
in the same
>subjects, and making the same noises about copyright
and
>"discrimination". Doesn't the game get old after a
while?)

>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Yes, the game is getting old. But it is not the first
time english problematic users spill on the french
wikipedia as well. Except we are never sure really
problematic users are one or two.

The main issue here is not so much whether JacquesD is
a ban user, but that indeed there is no policy as
regards fair use of images on the french wiki.
And JacquesD makes two good points :
He is uploading images which he claims are fair use.

*Some of his images have been deleted for not fitting
with the GFDL. Fine. But these images were copies from
the english wikipedia. If these images are ok on the
english, why should they be rejected on the french ? I
do not say it is good or bad that we follow the same
rules, I just say it should be clearer.

*Some of his images have been deleted for not fitting
with the GFDL. Fine. But other french editors appear
to upload same type of images (for example, recent
picts of actors). If these editors images are ok, why
should JacquesD images be wrong ?

Another editor, labelled problematic by some, uploaded
questionable image, which appear to me to be able to
fit the fair use condition. This one was deleted as
well.

Aside from soft appeal to force practiced by JacquesD,
and fair tries of flatteries ;-), I agree with him the
case is not clear and appear slightly discriminatory
:-)
There is a strong tendency to consider that one has
cried wolf (in this case Panoramix), wolf it is. And
that even though good contributor, a so-called wolf
has less rights than others.

-------------

Brion.
A technical question.
JacquesD mentions that the two pictures we have of
Kissinger (pictures that I find POV, so that are gonna
be deleted after the case is solved anyway) are of
dubious copyright. Hence, he delinked them. The link
has been replaced (then removed again) upon the reason
it came from es.wikipedia (apparently, coming from
another wikipedia is *enough* to be declared "cp
correct*. But when I go on w.es.kissinger, I see an
image...which is not an internal image, but rather an
external link to another web site (but is displayed in
wikipedia frame as well).

I might be wrong, but I thought this has been
forbidden/made-impossible because of the famous (and
well remembered by old timers :-)) goatxe image ?

No ? Something escaped me ?

------------------

Brion.
Another point.
It is interesting you mention that JacquesD has the
same ISP, and connect from the same town than DWs.
Though it is clear this user has similar patterns than
them (but this could be used to make believe he is
them), I came to the conclusion that he was not them,
based on synthax comparisons with Joe Canuck.
Your comment kinda threatens my inner convictions :-)
In any case, I do not see any reason for JacquesD to
be banned.

------------------------------

From: tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

Anthere wrote:

>>Could anyone explain to us what is fair use for
images
>>?

Tarquin
>c'est horriblement compliqu?.
>la meilleure chose a faire c'est de:
>1. vivre sans l'image en question -- trouver une
alternative
>2. si c'est indispensable, marquer que c'est "fair
use" sur la page
>description image.

Mentionning it is fair use as Alex explained seems a
good idea to me. Why isnot the english wikipedia doing
this as well ?

That is tough, as wikipedians copy images from one
wikipedias from another, as if just the fact it came
from another wiki was *proof* the image is public domain.

__________________________________
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from_name: Steve Vertigum

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
Perhaps give what you got a trial run, and let people
complain or not as they come.  First add a front page
news blurb (like MIT) linking to the Documentation.
Allow for comment there.  (faster feedback loop)

PS- will your magical program perhaps attempt someday
to convert html table markup to Wiki? I assume this is
unlikely.

~S~

--- Peter Gervai <grin at tolna.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 04:47:05PM +0200, Magnus
> Manske wrote:
>
> > Is there a special function for <th> anyway, or is
> it just the visual
> > difference?
>
> It _may_ get rendered differently by non-graphical
> renderers, like those for
> the blind. I believe it's nice behaviour to use them
> for headers.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

body:
Anthere wrote:

>Could anyone knowledgable help us here ?
>
>As a reminder, we were told that, being hosted on a
>californian server, we had to respect US law, and not
>everyone understand american law :-)
>
>Could anyone explain to us what is fair use for images
>?
>
>
>
c'est horriblement compliqu?.
la meilleure chose a faire c'est de:
1. vivre sans l'image en question -- trouver une alternative
2. si c'est indispensable, marquer que c'est "fair use" sur la page
description image.


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageDe.php

body:
Done.

Thomas Corell wrote:
> Hello,
>
> the same procedure than every time: short after getting some
> translations in the CVS, there appear new proposals and phrases :)
>
> If someone find some spare time: LanguageDe.php V1.26 awaits the stable
> tree.
>
> Greetings, The translator Smurf  ;)


from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
Brion wrote:

> >This seems like a remarkable waste of time. Why _not_
> >delete the pages?
> >They're not articles, they're user pages and that
> >user requested their
> >deletion.

Anthere wrote:

> Seconded. As mentionned in the title, these are
> "personal" pages. Or not ?
>
> The "public state record" is not lost. It may always
> be seen by a sysop as a deleted page, and undeleted if
> necessary.
>
> So what is the point in refusing the deletion of a
> *personal* page ? How wikilove is it to irritate
> someone for such an unimportant point ?

In general I don't see a problem with deleting personal pages either.  But
for an *active* contributor the page is likely to be regenerated very
quickly.  The talk page for sure, especially with a controversial user.
Someone is going to want to talk to them and will start a new page in no
time.  And the user page itself is likely to be regenerated - either by
someone wanting to remove the red link from "recent changes" or by someone
mistaking it for the talk page (as often happens with blank user pages).

So we would end up having to delete the pages over and over again.  That
*would* be waste of time.

If BuddhaInside just wanted a clean slate on hir pages, then I would say
delete.  But permanently non-existent user talk pages are not practical for
an active contributor (and the implied refusal to communicate with other
users is unhelpful to say the least)

sannse


from_name: Geoff Burling

body:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>
> --- Adam Raizen <araizen at newmail.net> wrote:
> > I would like to use a bot to upload articles on
> > cities in Israel based
> > on information from Israel's Central Bureau of
> > Statistics
> > (http://www.cbs.gov.il), a la Rambot. You can see an
> > example article at
> > [[User:AdamRaizen/Ramla]]. Any objections or
> > comments?
> >
> I wouldn't object, but the following part is a bit
> unclear:
>
> The ethnic makeup of the city is 80.5% Jewish and
> other, and 20.0% Arab (15.4% Muslim and 4.0%
> Christian). There are 450 new immigrants.

Are these catagories legally defined in Israeli law? (Or
at least, the same terms from the Israeli census materials?)
If so, I would like to see those terms hyperlinked to
an article explaining the legal definitions, much as
was done for the U.S. cities.
>
> Also, I would like to know how this bot handles it
> when articles are already there but it wants to put
> this data there.
> LDan
>
Good point. I would also add some kind of referent that
helps a user to locate where in Israel these municipalities
are. Both the US & France listings include the name of
the local government, which offer useful information
for locating the habitation in question.

I believe adding collections of habitations of more
countries -- especially non-English speaking ones --
will tremendously the usefulness of Wikipedia exponentially.
Anyone willing to do the same for, say, Egypt, Iraq, or
Thailand?

Geoff


from_name: Alex R.

body:
From: "Anthere" <anthere6 at yahoo.com>
> From: tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com>
> Anthere wrote:
>
> >>Could anyone explain to us what is fair use for
> images ?
>
> Tarquin
> >c'est horriblement compliqu?.
> >la meilleure chose a faire c'est de:
> >1. vivre sans l'image en question -- trouver une
> >alternative
> >2. si c'est indispensable, marquer que c'est "fair
> >use" sur la page  description image.
>
> Mentionning it is fair use as Alex explained seems a
> good idea to me. Why is not the english wikipedia doing
> this as well ?

Good question. I recently added specific information regarding this at:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_description_page#Fair_use_rationale
It does not appear that anyone thought that fair use was use specific.
I hope people will follow this suggestion. It will make Wikipedia
much more useful to third parties that might want to include
images in their versions of Wikipedia content.

Alex756


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 08:02, Anthere wrote:
> A technical question.
> JacquesD mentions that the two pictures we have of
> Kissinger (pictures that I find POV, so that are gonna
> be deleted after the case is solved anyway) are of
> dubious copyright. Hence, he delinked them. The link
> has been replaced (then removed again) upon the reason
> it came from es.wikipedia (apparently, coming from
> another wikipedia is *enough* to be declared "cp
> correct*.

If all the other wikipedias jumped off a cliff, would you too? :)
Claiming something is okay just because it's on another wiki doesn't
wash; the other one is just as likely to _not_ be okay.

And remember, folks, *no picture* is much better than a picture we can't
redistribute. If you didn't make it with your own hands or scan it from
a piece of paper older than 1924, and it doesn't have a "public domain"
or "GNU Free Documentation License" note on it, think twice.

Don't waste everyone's time copying something that turns up in 3 seconds
searching images.google.com; creating original works is better.

>  But when I go on w.es.kissinger, I see an
> image...which is not an internal image, but rather an
> external link to another web site (but is displayed in
> wikipedia frame as well).
>
> I might be wrong, but I thought this has been
> forbidden/made-impossible because of the famous (and
> well remembered by old timers :-)) goatxe image ?

It was disabled on the English wikipedia, as that's where abuses were
occuring (quite frequently). In any case I would _discourage_ such
linking. And there have been enough crazy court decisions over 'deep
linking' and such that I wouldn't rely on "it's just a link to another
site, we're not _copying it_" for an image embedded into a web page.
(IANAL)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Nik

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Problem with updating pages

body:
Hey Brion,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I am using the latest stable
release of MediaWiki available from source forge.

I am not sure about the timestamps - they do look all over the place "Thu, 1
Jan 1970 00:00:00 GMT" !!!! maybe this is the problem??

I include below the full HTTP headers from one request. I an by no means
knowlegable about how to troubleshoot these headers, so if anyone could give
them a quick look over, that would be much appreciated. What is annoying is
that I suspect that one setting somewhere on my server needs to be set, but
I don't know what it is.

Thanks again to everyone for their help, I realise we may be drifting from a
Wiki debug to a server debug... any more help is much appreciated.

Cheers, Nik

===================================
http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page

GET /wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page HTTP/1.1
Host: 10.0.0.2
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
Accept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=
0.8,video/x-mng,image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,*/*;q=0.1
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
Keep-Alive: 300
Connection: keep-alive
Referer: http://10.0.0.2/

HTTP/1.x 200 OK
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:23 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
Accept-Ranges: bytes
X-Powered-By: PHP/4.2.2
Set-Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b; path=/
Cache-Control: private, must-revalidate, max-age=0
Last-Modified: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:30:24 GMT
Expires: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
Content-Language: en
Transfer-Encoding: chunked
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
----------------------------------------------------------
http://10.0.0.2/favicon.ico

GET /favicon.ico HTTP/1.1
Host: 10.0.0.2
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
Accept: image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,*/*;q=0.1
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
Keep-Alive: 300
Connection: keep-alive
Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b

HTTP/1.x 404 Not Found
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:24 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
Content-Length: 313
Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=100
Connection: Keep-Alive
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
----------------------------------------------------------
http://10.0.0.2/wiki/style/wikistandard.css

GET /wiki/style/wikistandard.css HTTP/1.1
Host: 10.0.0.2
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
Accept: text/css,*/*;q=0.1
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
Keep-Alive: 300
Connection: keep-alive
Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page
Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b

HTTP/1.x 200 OK
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:24 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
Last-Modified: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:57:43 GMT
Etag: "c034-4aa-1100efc0"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 1194
Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=99
Connection: Keep-Alive
Content-Type: text/css
----------------------------------------------------------
http://10.0.0.2/wiki/style/wikibits.js

GET /wiki/style/wikibits.js HTTP/1.1
Host: 10.0.0.2
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
Accept: */*
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
Keep-Alive: 300
Connection: keep-alive
Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page
Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b

HTTP/1.x 200 OK
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:24 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
Last-Modified: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:57:43 GMT
Etag: "c032-b5f-1100efc0"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 2911
Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=98
Connection: Keep-Alive
Content-Type: application/x-javascript
----------------------------------------------------------
http://10.0.0.2/wiki/upload/wiki.png

GET /wiki/upload/wiki.png HTTP/1.1
Host: 10.0.0.2
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
Accept: image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,*/*;q=0.1
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
Keep-Alive: 300
Connection: keep-alive
Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page
Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b

HTTP/1.x 200 OK
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:24 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
Last-Modified: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:03:49 GMT
Etag: "c035-1e7-503e0340"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 487
Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=97
Connection: Keep-Alive
Content-Type: image/png
----------------------------------------------------------
==========================================

"Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com> wrote in
message news:1063385267.13178.44.camel at frank.vibber.org...
> On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 03:18, Nik wrote:
> > Cheers Tim, here is an extract from the logfile that is the section
where I
> > did the actions you asked. I also have attached the full file.
> [snip]
>
> Here's a quick overview of how it's supposed to work:
> * Browser requests to view the page. Server sees this is a first
> request, renders the page, and sends the current timestamp with it along
> with instructions that the browser *must* double-check with the server
> every time it views that page.
> * Browser requests edit page.
> * Browser posts the submission. Server updates the page in the database
> and tells the browser to request the page for viewing again.
> * Browser requests to view the page; this time it sends along the
> timestamp it had previously received in an If-Modified-Since header. The
> server compares this timestamp with the current timestamp of the page,
> and since the page is newer it will render and send the page anew.
>
> Your log is consistently missing that last request, so the server never
> even has a chance to send out the updated page. For some reason the
> browser isn't asking for it.
>
> Can you confirm that the timestamps in the log are correct? (It's
> _supposed_ to consistently use GMT, but if your server is set on local
> time and something slips through, some things could be an hour off.) I
> don't see any obvious inconsistencies, though, and the expiration time
> is hardcoded to January 2001 so it shouldn't matter...
>
> Which version of the software are you using? Did you get it from CVS
> (when?) or a tarball (which?) Try getting the stable branch from cvs:
>
"cvs -d:pserver:anonymous at cvs.sourceforge.net:
/cvsroot/wikipedia -r
> stable co phase" or some such incomprehensible command.
>
> I've sometimes had trouble with headers being overridden or not quite
> coming out right. If you've got a packet sniffer you can use to check
> what's actually on the wire between the server and the client, that
> might be a help; it's possible the Expires and/or Cache-Control headers
> aren't being set properly. You might try Ethereal (www.ethereal.com)
> which has a handy-dandy session reconstruction view, good for looking at
> your HTTP steams; also try the current Mozilla Firebird browser and
> install the 'Live HTTP headers' extension:
> http://texturizer.net/firebird/extensions.html#Live%20HTTP%20Headers
>
> (though of course Firebird might differ in its behavior; a packet
> sniffer can check up on any browser.)
>
> As a last-ditch, of course, you can disable client-side caching by
> dropping "$wgCachePages = false;" into your LocalSettings. This _should_
> force browsers to re-request pages always instead of caching. Well,
> hopefully. :)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: David Friedland

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pronunciations and IPA/SAMPA

body:
Toby Bartels wrote:
> David Friedland wrote about morphophones:
>
>
>>And it seems like a panacea for the pronunciation problem. But it's not,
>>because some words simply have different underlying representations in
>>different dialects, and the system only works for dialects that are
>>roughly the same except for a few sound changes. It fails for wildly or
>>even mildly divergent dialects. The American Heritage Dictionary system
>>sweeps this problem under the rug by saying "The pronunciations are
>>exclusively those of educated speech", which, to my mind, is a cop-out,
>>and not a satisfactory solution for Wikipedia.
>
>
> How do you mean that morphophones fail for mildly divergent dialects?
> What is your reason for thinking such a thing?
> Surely not that the American Heritage Dictionary didn't take much effort?
> I already said that these dictionaries have unsophisticated systems.
> The AHD states its limitations: educated American speech only.
> This allows them to cut corners on their implementation.
>

The reasoning behind morphophones is that even though people speak with
different regional dialects, how the pronunciations are stored in each
person's internal lexicon in their brain is the same, or can be
representented symbolically in ways that are equivalent. The
morphophonic system taps into this internal consistency between
different dialects and thus a single symbolic form can represent the
different (but equivalent) pronunciations for speakers of different
dialects.

For example, in such system we would have a single symbol for the sound
represented by the final "er" in the word "runner". A speaker of a
non-rhotic Boston dialect, for example, would then always produce this
sound as a plain schwa, and a speaker of, say, standard American would
produce it as a rhoticized schwa. In the morphophonic system, only a
single pronunciation would be needeed to specify the two different
pronunciations in result.

The problem with this system is that the fundamental assumption that
internal representations of pronunciations are equivalent is false. This
is what I meant by "mildly divergent" dialects. Besides regular sound
change, dialects also differ in some cases in how pronunciations are
represented in the lexicon. It is simply the case that some dialects
have fundamentally different internal representations for the
pronunciations of some words.

If you don't agree, then how would you specify a single pronunciation
using a morphophonic system for the words "almond", "apricot", "aunt",
"controversy", "clerk", "creek", "florida", "garage", "greasy",
"lieutenant", "mayonnaise", "mischievous", "pecan", and "tour", just for
starters? I just don't see how a simple system could capture all these
variants with a single representation. You're not advocating a system
that has a symbol that corresponds to /u/ in AmE and /Ef/ in BrE so that
"lieutenant" is represented with one set of symbols, are you?

>>However, I do not know of any system
>>advocated by linguists other than what phonologists call "broad
>>transcription" using IPA. Can you point me to a book or paper, written
>>by linguists, that specifies such a system for English, and advocates
>>its use by and for general (non-academic) readers?
>
>
> I've cited the original 1962 paper introducing morphophones before;
> I'd have to look up the citation in the archives to repeat it,
> but you're already going through those so I'll refrain for now.
> But that was an academic paper; what I should do now
> is try to track down a more recent (1980s) book that I've read,
> written by linguists, which advocates its use outside academic settings.

OK. I'd be really interested to learn how the above problem is solved.

>>I have never encoutered such a system, and I doubt that one exists.
>>Barring the existence of a standard system, I don't really see that
>>Wikipedia has any other options besides IPA for specifying
>>pronunciations. Certainly I hope no one thinks Wikipedia should invent
>>its own system. When it comes to standards, it should be our job to
>>follow them and describe them, not create them.
>
>
> I'm not sure to what extent there is a /single/ standard system.
> There certainly is at least one system in use by linguists.
> Probably with variations due to improved understanding over time,
> but whether these are coordinated by a single standards body I don't know.
> I will try to track this down too.

- David [[User:Nohat]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Pronunciations and IPA/SAMPA


from_name: Björn Lindqvist

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 2, Issue 26

body:
> 1. His has devoted much of his time to creating [[List of . . . ]] pages,
> and when his generally ridiculed pages are deleted, he tries to create yet
> more lists or bizarre renamed version of the list proposed for deletion.
>
> For example, he created a [[List of heterosexuals]] which was generally
> dismissed as nonsensical. When 28 people voted on it, after it was listed on
> the VfD, 20 voted to delete (accompanied with scathing comments about the
> list), 1 said 'delete or rename', 7 said keep. The debate went on for eight
> days. When it finally was deleted, he went ballistic, claiming that there
> was no consensus for its deletion (71%, or 75%, depending on how you
> interpret the votes, said delete! No consensus???)

75% is not a consensus, I can understand a user getting angry if it is a
page s/he has spent a lot of time on. This user seems to rather be in a
deep disagreement with the majority of Wikipedia users/sysops rather
than a genuine troll. In general I agree.

BL


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> For inter-wiki moves (to meta or sep11), bot-runners, and spot-backups,
> it would be useful to have a way to grab individual pages in a
> machine-friendly package, which can be easily popped into or out of
> another wiki or other software.
>

The idea of allowing inter-wiki moves complete with history sounds
pretty cool. But I don't like the idea of allowing users to forge
history by editing these XML files. Do you think we could throw in an
HMAC field? bin2hex(mhash(MHASH_MD5, $text, $key)) should do the trick.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Kurt Jansson

subject: [Wikitech-l] de:Spezial:Wantedpages

body:
The saved copy on

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezial:Wantedpages

doesn't look the way it should (no links, just brackets). Could someone
please fix it?

Kurt


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: site down?

body:
> I'm a fairly new user of www.wikipedia.org. As of last week, I haven't been
> able to access the site at all, either at home or at work. Has the site been
> taken down? I got your email address off a cached page, so I hope that it is
> still a valid one.

Hmm, the site's running just fine.

The logs show several apparently successful accesses from the IP address
used to send your e-mail today: the main page at 18:09 GMT and again at
19:39, then the google-cached copy of the page at 19:48 which called in
some of our javascript, and then the article "intelligent design" at
19:52.

Was this you? What was wrong? What, _exactly_, do you see when you can't
access the site? Error messages from your browser should be copied
exactly, word for word, action by action. They are meaningful.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Mike

subject: [WikiEN-l] BuddhaInside's behaviour

body:
> He then tried to edit the [[Consensus]] page to redefine what a consensus
> is, forcing the comment Angela,
>
> Changing the definition on the [[consensus]] page won't help Buddha . . .
> [[User:Angela|Angela]] 18:04, Sep 14, 2003 (UTC)

In spite of all the irritation he has caused, I would still have been
inclined to give him the benefit of doubt, but the above cited act brands
him as a troll in my opinion.

Mike AKA CyberMaus


from_name: Adam Raizen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Bot for generating articles on cities in Israel

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> --- Adam Raizen <araizen at newmail.net> wrote:
>
>>I would like to use a bot to upload articles on
>>cities in Israel based
>>on information from Israel's Central Bureau of
>>Statistics
>>(http://www.cbs.gov.il), a la Rambot. You can see an
>>example article at
>>[[User:AdamRaizen/Ramla]]. Any objections or
>>comments?
>>
>>--Adam Raizen
>
>
> I wouldn't object, but the following part is a bit
> unclear:
>
> The ethnic makeup of the city is 80.5% Jewish and
> other, and 20.0% Arab (15.4% Muslim and 4.0%
> Christian). There are 450 new immigrants.

What's unclear about it? Also, do you think that there are too many
statistics, or too few? There are a lot more statistics available, but I
don't want to clutter up the pages with a bunch of useless statistics.

> Also, I would like to know how this bot handles it
> when articles are already there but it wants to put
> this data there.
> LDan

I haven't worked out the details yet, but it will do it gracefully,
without clobbering any existing data. I'll post an example article of a
conflict soon. There are only a dozen or so existing articles, so it
will be possible to go over them individually to make sure the bot's
article is merged well with the existing article.

--Adam Raizen


from_name: Alex T.

body:
From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>

> And remember, folks, *no picture* is much better than a picture we can't
> redistribute. If you didn't make it with your own hands or scan it from
> a piece of paper older than 1924, and it doesn't have a "public domain"
> or "GNU Free Documentation License" note on it, think twice.

Good advice (is prior to January 1, 1923 or January 1, 1924?)

> Don't waste everyone's time copying something that turns up in 3 seconds
> searching images.google.com; creating original works is better.

There may be the _rare_ occasion when an image is so publically
well known (i.e. a famous photo of something that is very _news_
worthy) that practically any informational use may be covered
by fair use, but that will be _very rare_. Most fair uses will not
be 100% compatible with the GNU FDL.

> >  But when I go on w.es.kissinger, I see an
> > image...which is not an internal image, but rather an
> > external link to another web site (but is displayed in
> > wikipedia frame as well).

> It was disabled on the English wikipedia, as that's where abuses were
> occuring (quite frequently). In any case I would _discourage_ such
> linking. And there have been enough crazy court decisions over 'deep
> linking' and such that I wouldn't rely on "it's just a link to another
> site, we're not _copying it_" for an image embedded into a web page.
> (IANAL)

This is a good point. Even if you don't keep a copy, it is still being
copied
automatically when it is being displayed on the Wikipedia page. Someone
does not have to click on it to go to another web page. Therefore some
jury or judge can easily make a legal finding that the deep link is a copy
on Wikipedia (never know what judges or juries will do until the law
becomes well settled).

Alex756 (IAAL, but it's NALO [not a legal opinion]!)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
OK, anyone opposed to
- wiki table markup *in general*
- the *markup style* I use at test.wikipedia.org
- my *implementation* of that style

please speak up now! Otherwise, I'll commit it to the stable branch of
the software, which means it will go online with the next update.

Magnus


from_name: Peter Gervai

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 03:51:46PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:
> OK, anyone opposed to
> - wiki table markup *in general*
> - the *markup style* I use at test.wikipedia.org
> - my *implementation* of that style
>
> please speak up now! Otherwise, I'll commit it to the stable branch of
> the software, which means it will go online with the next update.

I love it.

:-)


from_name: Gutza

body:
>> I wouldn't object, but the following part is a bit
>> unclear:
>>
>> The ethnic makeup of the city is 80.5% Jewish and
>> other, and 20.0% Arab (15.4% Muslim and 4.0%
>> Christian). There are 450 new immigrants.
>
>
> What's unclear about it? Also, do you think that there are too many
> statistics, or too few? There are a lot more statistics available, but
> I don't want to clutter up the pages with a bunch of useless statistics.

The city appears to be made up of 100.5% of its population. Of that, 20%
of the population is made of 15.4%+4%=19.4%. We can safely conclude that
the population is more than the population, from which the Arabs are
less than the Arabs. I think that's a bit unclear. :)

Gutza


from_name: w w

subject: [Wikitech-l] site down?

body:
I'm a fairly new user of www.wikipedia.org. As of last week, I haven't been
able to access the site at all, either at home or at work. Has the site been
taken down? I got your email address off a cached page, so I hope that it is
still a valid one.

Best wishes,

Brad

_________________________________________________________________
Try MSN Messenger 6.0 with integrated webcam functionality!
http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_webcam


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

body:
Merritt L. Perkins wrote:
> What does the acronym GFDL stand for?

Why don't you just try to look things up in the Wikipedia before you
post more stupid newbie questions on this list?  Perhaps you think
this list is about you?

Are you only stupid, or really a troll?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
I don't see table headers used a lot in wikipedia, so maybe its own
markup could become too confusing. Could that be solved by

{|
|class=header|The header text
|-
|Just a cell
|}

Is there a special function for  anyway, or is it just the visual
difference? In that case, we wouldn't need  at all, but could do
with a  CSS class (like above).

But, if there's a demand for a  equivalent, I'll add one. Someone
suggested using == Headers == in the table markup makes  tags.

Summary of possible solutions:
1. Ignore  completely
2. Make a special tag ("!" or "|:" or something)
3. Use "| == Text ==" as "Text	"

What's it gonna be? :-)

Magnus

P.S.: Seems someone wiped the stylesheet definitions for the
floating-right image from the test site. Too bad.

Gutza wrote:

> How about adding support for
>
> {|
> ! Table header 1
> ! Table header 2
> |- | Table content 1
> | Table content 2
> |}
>
> To generate proper table headers as specified by HTML 4.0? Also, you
> could start a header row using
>
> {|
> !-
> | Table header 1
> | Table header 2
> |-
> | Table content 1
> | Table content 2
> |}
>
> because a proper implementation of the markup shouldn't echo the first
>
 only after encountering the first content tag, so encountering a
> "!-" before that could echo the proper HTML header tags.
>
> Gutza
>
> Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>> OK, anyone opposed to
>> - wiki table markup *in general*
>> - the *markup style* I use at test.wikipedia.org
>> - my *implementation* of that style
>>
>> please speak up now! Otherwise, I'll commit it to the stable branch of
>> the software, which means it will go online with the next update.
>>
>> Magnus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 04:47:05PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:

> Is there a special function for <th> anyway, or is it just the visual
> difference?

It _may_ get rendered differently by non-graphical renderers, like those for
the blind. I believe it's nice behaviour to use them for headers.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
How about adding support for

{|
! Table header 1
! Table header 2
|-
| Table content 1
| Table content 2
|}

To generate proper table headers as specified by HTML 4.0? Also, you
could start a header row using

{|
!-
| Table header 1
| Table header 2
|-
| Table content 1
| Table content 2
|}

because a proper implementation of the markup shouldn't echo the first
<TR> only after encountering the first content tag, so encountering a
"!-" before that could echo the proper HTML header tags.

Gutza

Magnus Manske wrote:

> OK, anyone opposed to
> - wiki table markup *in general*
> - the *markup style* I use at test.wikipedia.org
> - my *implementation* of that style
>
> please speak up now! Otherwise, I'll commit it to the stable branch of
> the software, which means it will go online with the next update.
>
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Chris Seaton

subject: [Wikitech-l] server mostly dead ?

body:
I don't know about this case (probably restarted the server) but
generally after the servers have been slow for a few days people give up
and go elsewhere, and then server is quite nippy for a while before they
start coming back.

On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 17:00, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
> Since yesterday, at least the rench wikipedia is running very slow.
> Now it is unusable for all practical use, but two days ago it was,suddenly, running very well.
>
> Is there an explanation for this or it's just hardware magic?
>
> -- Looxix
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
--
Chris Seaton

chris at chrisseaton.com
http://www.chrisseaton.com/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 08:14:07AM -0700, Steve Vertigum wrote:

it's on for testing on meta for quite a while.

> PS- will your magical program perhaps attempt someday
> to convert html table markup to Wiki? I assume this is
> unlikely.

probably could be done with a moderately simple perl script...
(ymmw)


from_name: Ulrich Fuchs

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
Am Montag, 15. September 2003 15:51 schrieb Magnus Manske:
> OK, anyone opposed to
> - wiki table markup *in general*
> - the *markup style* I use at test.wikipedia.org
> - my *implementation* of that style
>
> please speak up now! Otherwise, I'll commit it to the stable branch of
> the software, which means it will go online with the next update.
>

Ok, just speaking up a little bit, but just repeating what has been said
before.

I doubt that a new markup for tables will make things a lot more easier for
newbies. Tables *are* a complex thing, and they are difficult to read in any
markup language, because cells rendered *beside* the other are coded *below*
each other in the source (at least if there is som more content requireing
line breaks). So I doubt that a newbie will be able to edit a table like it's
used in the country or element articles, no matter what markup we are using.

Therefore I really liked the idea of having a "table"-namespace, and a way of
importing the tables in that namespace as easiliy as we do with images right
now. The article source would be cleared of the table, and the table might be
as complex as needed without scaring away the newbies.

However, I can imagine that the new markup is a fine way for rendering
*simple* tables within the article, giving newbies a chance to do simple
table layouts the easy way (there are a lot of issues that can be aligned in
simple tables, so the feature *is* useful). It's somewhat more readable,
easier to understand and therefore easier to write than html.

But, as I said, for large and complex tables that new markup will not solve
our problems.

Uli


from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject: [Wikitech-l] server mostly dead ?

body:
Since yesterday, at least the rench wikipedia is running very slow.
Now it is unusable for all practical use, but two days ago it was,suddenly, running very well.

Is there an explanation for this or it's just hardware magic?

-- Looxix


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 05:49:36PM +0200, Ulrich Fuchs wrote:

> But, as I said, for large and complex tables that new markup will not solve
> our problems.

I think nothing would really solve editing for newbies; however the new
markup makes it easier for professional high qualified wikipedia masters :-D
to create tables, and would make it easier for newbies to EDIT these tables,
since the markup is much more simple and easy to "see".

I myself (counting myself rather on the pro side) often get lost in table
markup because of the open/close tags, because I cannot use indents (it gets
converted to <pre>), etc.

Peter


body:
Gutza wrote:
>
>>> I wouldn't object, but the following part is a bit
>>> unclear:
>>>
>>> The ethnic makeup of the city is 80.5% Jewish and
>>> other, and 20.0% Arab (15.4% Muslim and 4.0%
>>> Christian). There are 450 new immigrants.
>>
>>
>>
>> What's unclear about it? Also, do you think that there are too many
>> statistics, or too few? There are a lot more statistics available, but
>> I don't want to clutter up the pages with a bunch of useless statistics.
>
>
> The city appears to be made up of 100.5% of its population. Of that, 20%
> of the population is made of 15.4%+4%=19.4%. We can safely conclude that
> the population is more than the population, from which the Arabs are
> less than the Arabs. I think that's a bit unclear. :)

That's the data that I got from the CBS's web site, so there's not too
much I can do about it. I assume that the slight inconsistencies are a
result of overlap or incorrect reporting or non-reporting by some residents.

-- Adam Raizen


from_name: wikipedia-l at gl00on.net

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

body:
> > What does the acronym GFDL stand for?
>
> Why don't you just try to look things up in the Wikipedia before you
> post more stupid newbie questions on this list?  Perhaps you think
> this list is about you?
>
> Are you only stupid, or really a troll?

Now, now - don't bite the newcomers. Granted, looking things up in Wikipedia
before asking on this list is a good idea, but I think that could've been
said in a nicer way.

--
 7:17PM  up 26 days,  3:39, 2 users, load averages: 0.08, 0.11, 0.08

Every non-empty totally disconnected perfect compact metric space is
homeomorphic to the Cantor set.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 18:49, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> .... We already had a bug
> where ;/: and : for namespaces conflicted (and btw., is it fixed ?).

Which bug is that?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

> Is there a special function for  anyway, or is it just the visual
> difference?

Please note there are two ways of specifying the table headers: TH cells
(in which case you must specify a scope attribute) and the THEAD row
group. The THEAD and TBODY groups are mandatory in HTML 4.x strict IIRC
-- but that's not the reason why I think they should be supported in
itself. I think they would be interesting to support for the same
reasons why they have been added to HTML:

1. Separation of content and format by allowing designers to specify the
content in predefined tags;
2. Accessibility support and special applications support;
3. Greater user agent customization based on the structure information
(e.g. future browsers will probably render the headers of a table on
each page the table spans on).

Please note that, should you implement this feature, you'll need to find
a way to properly retrieve and render the headers in HTML:

        Header 1
        Header 2

       Content 1
       Content 2

is incorrect, it should be either

       Header 1
       Header 2

       Content 1
       Content 2

or ideally

           Header 1
           Header 2

           Content 1
           Content 2

if possible. Also,  should be used where it can be
determined that the contributor wanted to render a vertical header:

           Header 1
           Content 1

           Header 2
           Content 2

Rather than using a CSS class for headers, I'd prefer not using them at
all, because it would generate the same type of
structure/content/rendering mix the authors of the HTML specification
wanted to avoid.

I don't want to impose my notation in your implementation of the markup,
but I personally find the exclamation mark to be a better solution than
"|:" exactly because I personally find it to be more intuitive and less
confusing: it looks similar to the vertical bar, it uses the same
one-character convention for opening cells as the vertical bar uses and
the exclamation mark is generally associated with important data, which
a header in a table is.

Absolutely obviously indubitably just my 2c. :)

Gutza


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Language.php and LanguageDe.php

body:
Hello,

I fixed a typo in exporttext (Language.php), and added the export page
phrases in the LanguageDe.php.

Greetings Smurf
--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Schneelocke

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
> >Is there a special function for <th> anyway, or is it just the visual
> >difference?
>
> Please note there are two ways of specifying the table headers: TH cells
> (in which case you must specify a scope attribute) and the THEAD row
> group. The THEAD and TBODY groups are mandatory in HTML 4.x strict IIRC
> [...]

In XHTML 1.1 at least, thead, tfoot and tbody are optional [1]. In HTML
4.01, it seems to me that tbody at least is required, while thead and tfoot
are optional [2].

1. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_tablemodule
2. http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html

--
 7:28PM  up 26 days,  3:50, 2 users, load averages: 0.13, 0.11, 0.08

Every non-empty totally disconnected perfect compact metric space is
homeomorphic to the Cantor set.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 19:43, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 07:32:58PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 18:49, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> > > .... We already had a bug
> > > where ;/: and : for namespaces conflicted (and btw., is it fixed ?).
> >
> > Which bug is that?
>
> This one - http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_bug (still there)

Blecch! Is there any reason not to remove the single-line ;: directory
list syntax?

For the uninitiated: a line like this:

; foo : bar

would produce code something like:

foo

bar

(but uglier, because our parser produces ugly code) which renders
something like:

foo
      bar

Currently this triggers on :s in URLs and wikilinks as well as plain
text, which is unexpected.

Requiring the : portion to be a second line would prevent this from
being an issue.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Arno Peters

subject: [Wikitech-l] Proposal on language integration

body:
Hi,

I have put a little writeup on the meta wikipedia concerning the
possible road ahead for language integration: the [[proposal on
language integration]].  I believe my proposal is able to create a
single signon for users, is capable of retaining the basic structure of
the current wikipedia's while allowing other projects, like Wiktionary,
to easily expand into multiple languages.

I believe that this proposal can be incorporated in the current
codebase in small, independent parts.  It would simplify the current
code because interlanguage links would be rationalized, the need for
the Special namespace disappears in favor of additional substitution
variables, the Wikipedia, Image and User namespaces move to their own
separate, language-specific wiki.  Please read the proposal for
details.

Regards,
--
Arno Peters [[User:Ap]]


from_name: Jake Nelson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> Summary of possible solutions:
> 1. Ignore  completely
> 2. Make a special tag ("!" or "|:" or something)
> 3. Use "| == Text ==" as "Text	"
>
> What's it gonna be? :-)

I like #3, myself, if anything. (I've never really made use of  in
tables, myself...

--Jake


body:
I find those stats a little flaky (their groupings of people are a little
odd and obtuse), but I'd prefer it to no stats. I say go for it (but be
cautious with existing articles!).

--Jake


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: site down? and Re: server mostly dead?

body:
Funny, I've been noticing how much faster and more reliable it's been the
last few days. (Roughly when mod_throttle was turned on.)

-- Jake


from_name: Jimmy O'Regan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use

body:
Merritt L. Perkins wrote:

> I am confused by the discussions of,? Fair Use?. What does the term
> mean? What are they talking about?
>
> If I describe an automobile as ? A motor vehicle for transporting
> people." you know that it is not an advertising sign or some kind of
> computer program. You can proceed to add more details.
>
> Does? Fair Use? mean the use that a program is intended for; the use
> that a person can properly make of a program?
>
> What does the acronym GFDL stand for?
>
> This was dictated with Dragon NaturallySpeaking 7 Preferred and read
> by Jennifer.
>
> Merritt L. Perkins
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
Given that this is a mailing list used to discuss the matters which
arise on a free /encyclopaedia/ I don't think it's remiss of me to say
you should perhaps look these terms up first? Since you're using a
speech recognition program, I'll presume you require it, and that
entering individual URLs may be difficult; I have a bookmarklet set in
mozilla (http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?search=%s&go=Go) which
allows me to type "wiki term I wish to look up"; this brings me directly
to the page, if one exists under that title, otherwise it brings me to
the search page. Using this I find:
The *fair use* doctrine <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine> is a
body of law <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law> and court decisions
<http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_decision> which provide limitations
and exceptions to copyright
<http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limitations_and_exceptions_to_copyright>.
and:
The *GNU Free Documentation License* (GFDL) is a copyleft
<http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft> license for free content
<http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_content>, designed by the Free
Software Foundation
<http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation> (FSF) for the
GNU <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU> project.


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 03:51:46PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:
> OK, anyone opposed to
> - wiki table markup *in general*
> - the *markup style* I use at test.wikipedia.org
> - my *implementation* of that style
>
> please speak up now! Otherwise, I'll commit it to the stable branch of
> the software, which means it will go online with the next update.

I'm not a great fan of it.
Can you provide complete specification of how is it supposed to behave ?
It seems to be stealing whole 3 characters - {, }, and |,
and to be much more ambiguous than it should.