body:
> Shouldn't we be encouraging and facilitating filtering?

Everyone can copy and filter Wikipedia.

I do not have any objections to a generic, open filtering system as part of
Wikipedia, such as my proposed certification system. What I (and probably
others) do have a problem with are highly specific filters or warnings, such as
a "family filter".

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Family filters are not NPOV

body:
> And I'm saying that if we facilitate filtering generally, perhaps by
> making it easy to put hooks in for independently developed filters,
> which might be any topic under the sun and moon, then "family
> filtering" is just one more category.

Sure, come up with an actual implementation proposal and I'll gladly tear it
to shreds ;-)

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] TMC

body:
> The username "Throbbing Monster Cock" is vandalism and will be
> deleted.  This is an unusual situation, in that the vandalism is *in
> the name* rather than *in the article*.  This would be cute if it
> weren't so juvenile and stupid.

I tend to agree (preserving the name doesn't have any positive effects, but
some negative ones), but I would prefer it if there was a process in place
where we wouldn't have to resort to the benevolence of a "dictator" to enforce
our (in this case unwritten?) policy.

I'm thinking of voting, of course :-)

Regard,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiEN-L

body:
> It's not really a problem ;-), but it would be maybe more appropriate if
> someone native to the English wikipedia did the administration.
>
> If someone likes to do it, drop me a mail and I'll add your address to the
> administrators-list.
>
> greetings,
> elian

I am willing to moderate any English-language mailing list that Elian wants me to moderate.

Just tell me what you want me to do. For example, help sort out which posts belong on which list?

Ed Poor


list: wikien-l

subject: [Wikien-l] Testing

body:
> Archives don't exist yet?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>

They do now. Thanks for getting the ball rolling, Brion.

Ed Poor


subject: [Wikipedia-l] What the front page of the wikipedia needs is a warning for children

body:
Wikipedia is not Britannica, and is also different from Encyclopedia Americana, the big one-volume Columbia Encyclopedia or any of Microsoft's attempts.

NPOV is one thing that distinguishes us. There's less of a whitewash on Communism in Wikipedia than in Britannica.

There's also a lot more about X-rated and XXX-rated sexual practices here.

I don't know if this requires a warning label -- at least not until we start shipping the CD-ROM version.

I think Larry's sifter idea, backed by Magnus's software, will make the warning-label question moot.

Ed Poor


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] logarithmic approximations

body:
On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 09:18:39AM -0600, Chris Bourke wrote:
>
> I'm working on a project right now using GNU's multiprecision library.
> However, and unfortunately, there are no library functions to do any
> logarithmic functions.
>
> I'm merely trying to get a ceiling (or floor) or the lg (base 2) of a
> large integer.  Of course, I could always send it into a loop requiring
> O(lg^3(n)) to get it, but I know there must be a way to do a simpler
> approximation, especially since I don't need very high precision.
>
> I asked this question of some math associates and they suggested the usual
> taylor series, etc.  However, I am unable to find a satisfactory series
> for a large n (taylor only works for x<1, right?).
>
> Any help would be appreciated.

You can use mpfr library which is addon for GMP, which has all the
functions you want.

-- Taw, author of Ruby bindings to GMP


from_name: Michael R. Irwin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Censorship and bowdlerization

body:
Steve Callaway wrote:
>
> Mike Irwin wrote (for full text see beneath):
>
> > If a minor has not established sufficient trust/respect
> > with his or her guardian to be trusted online without censorship or
> > spy software enabled ..... then perhaps it would be better (for
> > the project and possibly for the child) if they were not participating
> > at Wikipedia?
>
> You could quite easily extend that argument, replacing "guardian" with
> government and "child" with "people". Just a thought.
>
> Steve Callaway

Consider that in the U.S.A.; We, the people, are sovereign; while
George W. Bush is a paid employee, with some specifically delegated
responsibilities and authority.  These are not small despite being
constitutionally limited, as the Taliban discovered and as Saddam
Hussein (who is also sovereign but who apparently has few fellow
sovereigns nearby with the desire or means necessary to constrain
his actions) is about to find out.

A juvenile in the U.S. is considered incompetent to
manage their own affairs and is assumed to have a guardian. If
the authorities become aware that they do not have a competent
guardian, one is appointed by a court.  Thus we may conclude
that in the U.S. the juvenile's self sovereignty has been
deferred somehow despite its inalienibility.   Essentially
enough adults in our society have agreed to certain constraints
and have enough collective force available to implement these
constraints.   Our founding poetry is not allowed to get in
the way of survival and prosperity on a practical day to
day basis.

The argument extension you propose above could be made easily
only if rights are alienable and the government could
convince enough people of that to maintain their authority
by guile, force or divine right.

IMO, George W. Bush is making the case to the American people
effectively (they believe him and support his actions and preparations
for war to date) that we can no longer rely on common sense
and the sovereign Iraqui people to constrain Saddam Hussein's potential
use of weapons of mass destruction should conflicting interests
in the Middle East lead to warfare.

I hope this clarifies things regarding the U.S.A.  I have very
limited exposure or detailed understanding of other cultures.

Regards,
Mike Irwin


body:
> A short warning is appropriate.

No, unless it's a very general "possibly offensive content" warning. And
as you say, it goes with the territory.

Regards,

Erik


list: sifter-l

source: wayback-mbox

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: Re: [Sifter-l] (no subject)

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Daniel observed "a lot of overlap between Nupedia and this project"
> and proposed that we "meld the vitality of Wikipedia with the
> standards of Nupedia". I agree with this wholeheartedly. I would go so
> far as to see that it's the only possible way to proceed.
>
> Given that Nupedia has stalled, we can look on it as either dead or
> asleep.
>
> Can we revive a dead or sleepy project? Maybe Larry could, if we gave
> him a big enough budget. The Rev. Sun Myung Moon provided over
> millions of dollars for the then-annual ICUS, and got many Nobel prize
> winners and other scholars to contribute their interdisciplinary work.
> But I have no such funds at my disposal; nor would I expect anyone to
> accept "Moonie" sponsorship.
>
> Let's see what we can with software and e-mail, first.
>
I'd like to start the Gnupedia project first. My test software (V0.01
;-) is ready to go and will be online soon.

> As I understand Larry's idea, a new web site (such as gnupedia.org)
> would consist mainly of external links to specific versions of
> Wikipedia articles. This would not be hard to do. We could even put up
> a prototype by slapping a few lines of hard-coded HTML together.
>
No, it will contain the actual article text (HTML-wiki-mixture) that is
uneditable by anyone, and the images. Importing a wikipedia article is a
two-click-action.

> The hard part is getting agreement on the Approval Process.
>
You are Gnupedia reviewer, you think an article is good, you click on a
link and a button, it's in.

> Well, my vote is to give Larry carte blanche to pick experts in
> various fields, and let those experts either be or approve reviewers
> (or both). The reviewers then officially state their approval of an
> article.
>
We might want to use categories for articles soon. Assigning reviewers
to special categories might come later. The software is prepared for
that, though.

Magnus


from_name: Axel Boldt

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WikiEN-L

body:
Ed Poor wrote:

> I am willing to moderate any English-language mailing list
> that Elian wants me to moderate.

I am against Ed administrating one of our mailing lists since he has
repeatedly shown in the past that he is capable of all sorts of stupid
actions in the heat of the moment.

Axel

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikien-l] New mailing list

body:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the new WikiEn-L mailing list.

Here, we will discuss the many problems and challenges facing the English-language Wikipedia.

On the old Wikipedia-L mailing list, we will focus on topics of concern to all Wikipedias regardless of language.

I am willing to be a moderator for this list, if it needs one and people want me to do it.

Ed Poor


subject: [Wikien-l] Getting started

body:
Ed said:

> Hello, everybody, and welcome to the new WikiEn-L mailing list.
>
> Here, we will discuss the many problems and challenges facing the English-language Wikipedia.
>
> On the old Wikipedia-L mailing list, we will focus on topics of concern to all Wikipedias regardless of language.
>
> I am willing to be a moderator for this list, if it needs one and people want me to do it.
>
> Ed Poor
>

Excellent!  I was going to nominate
Mav but he takes on a lot already with
greeting, proofing, and coaching regarding
article titles.

A question to consider:

On meta issues that seem generally
applicable do we:

1.  Migrate them immediately
to the main wikipedia list for discussion
there with other language people or

2.  do we attempt to articulate the English consensus
or significant alternatives first and then engage the
other languages in discussion?

Regards,
Mike Irwin


from_name: Tom Parmenter

body:
|From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller)
|Date: 15 Nov 2002 01:16:00 +0100
|
|> NPOV is one thing that distinguishes us. There's less of a whitewash on
|> Communism in Wikipedia than in Britannica.
|
|And lots of propaganda, too. [[Gulag]] is hardly NPOV, for example.
|

Let's have some additions from you about the bright positive side of
the Gulag.  Which part of slave labor by political prisoners do you
like best?

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88


subject: [Wikitech-l] As a technical matter

body:
> I can easily change his name in the table of users, but this will
> break a lot of links in articles and elsewhere?  So those would need
> to be changed as well?

How about putting a redirect on the user page?

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Karen AKA Kajikit

body:
Or rather, for their parents... while sex information etc seems to have
a home in the wikipedia, parents might not be thrilled at the idea of
Junior reading up on anal penetration, cock rings, and other 'adult'
concepts. I know I wouldn't if it was my kids... some things are just
not for juvenile eyes, if only because too much information leads to
very awkward questions.

The front page should have a note on it in the introduction, saying
something like 'While the wikipedia does not condone obscenity, articles
may contain adult concepts and language unsuitable for children. Please
supervise your children's access.' or whatever...

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

To err is human... to really foul things up add kitten and stir.

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating
Ample Aussies Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ampleaussies/


from_name: elian

subject: [Wikitech-l] Request for setting up of the Polish mailing list

body:
Jason Richey <jasonr at bomis.com> writes:

> Anybody else need a list?

Yes, an english list to reduce traffic at wikipedia-l.

greetings,
elian
--
The first time M$ will produce something that doesn?t suck
is when they start making vacuum cleaners.


from_name: Giskart

body:
Jason Richey wrote:

[cut]
> Anybody else need a list?

What about a maillinglist "announce-l at wikipedia.org ?
Only to announce software changes and other thing that have a inpact on
all wikipedia's. NOT for posting somthing about Lir, TMC or Helga.

Only for important things and well in advance. So when you come at home
you do not have to read 60 - 80 emails to find out what discissens are
made on the English maillinglist about your home wikipedia.

No posting for the genaral public. Not for discussion, only to announce.
Discussion -> Intlwiki-l

Of cource if nobody wants to use it, it is pointless.
---
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? Wikipedia, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] What the front page of the wikipedia needs is a
 warning for children

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

> > The front page should have a note on it in the introduction, saying
> > something like 'While the wikipedia does not condone obscenity, articles
> > may contain adult concepts and language unsuitable for children. Please
> > supervise your children's access.' or whatever...
>
> I strongly object against this. This implies that the concept of obscenity
> is generally shared, which it isn't. If you get your obscenity warning label,
> I want my "religious content" warning label. And someone else may want a
> warning label that Wikipedia may be offensive to people having suffered from
> certain traumas. And maybe the creationists and anti-abortionists want one, too.
>
> Wikipedia is an *encyclopedia*.  That implies certain things. If you don't
> want your children to learn, don't allow them to read -- that is your right as
> a parent. But not everyone wants children to be kept ignorant of sexual
> matters (or the ideas that lead to such indoctrination to be perpetuated
> uncritically).

So you don't like that wording? Leave off the first sentence then. It's
just my blathering. In lieu of some means of 'grading' articles for
suitability (which I don't think we need) a parental warning is the
LEAST we can do. MOST of the articles in the wikipedia are
noncontrovertial, but not all of them, and the odds are high that it
wouldn't occur to a lot of parents that this is the case. Articles in
the wikipedia come up in Google all the time and while it's great for
Junior to be able to find information on Golden Retriever dogs or the
History of Great Britain or the Lesser Spotted Warbler, the kid can go
from there to anything else in the wikipedia...

But I'm not going to sit here and argue about it. I've got MUCH better
things to do with my evening.

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

To err is human... to really foul things up add kitten and stir.

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating
Ample Aussies Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ampleaussies/


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> > So you don't like that wording? Leave off the first sentence then.
>
> So it would just be "Please supervise your children's access"? No way, that
> would imply that we take the POV that supervision of children's learning is

Don't be stupid. You know what I meant. I've had enough of this
argument. Bye!

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

To err is human... to really foul things up add kitten and stir.

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating
Ample Aussies Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ampleaussies/


body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>I thought that was just a joke.
>
>
Nope, some guys from the de.wikipedia want to discuss the project
without hearing about TMC and related stuff in 95% of the mails...

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] WikiEN-L

body:
Jason Richey <jasonr at bomis.com> writes:

> Done.  WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org, subscribe at
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> Again, I set the admin for the list to the person who requested it.
> Let me know if this is a problem...

It's not really a problem ;-), but it would be maybe more appropriate if
someone native to the English wikipedia did the administration.

If someone likes to do it, drop me a mail and I'll add your address to the
administrators-list.

All the others on the lists, especially wikipedia-l, I'd like to ask to
subscribe to wikiEN-L!

Please try to decide if your message is of concern for wikipedia as a
whole (all language wikipedias) or if it concerns the English Wikipedia
only (problems with users or articles, projects, internal organization
etc.) and send your message accordingly.

You will help the foreigners a lot, who are struggling with the English
language and desperately trying to filter out the relevant stuff for them
on wikipedia-l  ;-)

greetings,
elian
--
macos x is like indian tent:
no gates, no windows & apache inside


subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiEN-L


subject: [Wikitech-l] Name for policy discussion list

body:
Jason Richey wrote:

>If I understand the intent here, then wikipedia-l should become the
>moderated list...
>
>
I don't know about moderated, but wikipedia-l should be about the
"project as whole", while wikien-l is specifically about the English
wikipedia.

Magnus


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Meta-tag filters bad, Sifter good

body:
"Filters" based on meta tags are utterly useless in a world-editable website
like Wikipedia. Parents wouldn't be able to trust that 5 seconds before
Junior accessed the Tigger article that Goat Man hadn't replaced the article
with an obscene story about Mickey, Minnie and Pluto with external links to
the goat sex and other similar pictures under every clickable link. If I were
the Goat Man I would specifically target "G" tagged articles.

IMO the only effective way to filter is to have humans hand select specific
article versions and have those versions automatically uploaded into another
website that is not world editable. One click and you are done. Hm, sounds
like Larry's Sifter project (the software being developed is GPLd so there is
no reason why there can't be many Sifters - each with a different focus --
but each Sifter project would have to respect Wikipedia's policies and
conventions to use the easy upload feature).

We should face the fact that since Wikipedia is a wiki, that is has always
been and will always be, a work in progress. I don't see anything wrong with
that at all if there are stable Wikipedia article versions that people can
put some trust into. Under the Sifter plan, Wikipedia will simply be a common
resource that all the Sifter projects use and do their editing on.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

Free Software analogy: Wikipedia is like CVS. Yes you can compile the raw
untested code that somebody wrote 10 minutes ago and run it on your computer
but don't complain if it makes your hard-drive spin backwards and causes your
computer to catch fire. Sifter can be viewed more like a stable and
pre-compiled release that is deemed functional and mostly bug-free by
somebody with a reputation on the line.


subject: [Sifter-l] Meta-tag filters bad, Sifter good


body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> Jason Richey wrote:
>
>> If I understand the intent here, then wikipedia-l should become the
>> moderated list...
>>
>>
> I don't know about moderated, but wikipedia-l should be about the
> "project as whole",

And Intlwiki-L? Is not the list for all wikipedia's?

giskart


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Call for a general disclaimer linked from every page

body:
We don't need some warning on the Main Page for "protecting" sensitive eyes -
that is just plain silly. As somebody already mentioned the vast majority of
hits we get are through external search engines that bring viewers to
individual articles. Also if the viewer has parental controls on while using
the external search engine then they won't land on any "objectionable"
Wikipedia articles.

How about this; Have a link in the footer area of each page that simply says
"Disclaimer and Copyright Notice"

Then we could have a general disclaimer (as most large websites do) that can
say several things;

1) We could warn people not to depend on Wikipedia for data that will be used
to design intergalatic probes, find cures for cancer or operate on kittens
because we can't make any promises as to the accuracy of the information we
present in spite of the fact that most of us try our best to write excellent
and correct material (also a disclaimer of legal liability would be nice).
2) We could also state that part of our mission is to describe works of art in
a comprehensive mannor so we will be giving away plots and the endings of
stories.
3) In addition we would also state that our intention to to cover all human
knowledge of encyclopedic value and this includes material that some people
may find to be objectionable or even offensive for various reasons.

No need for meta-tag based filters and no need for a message on the main page
that hardly anybody who might need it would ever see.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


body:
Giskart wrote:

> Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>> I don't know about moderated, but wikipedia-l should be about the
>> "project as whole",
>
>
> And Intlwiki-L? Is not the list for all wikipedia's?

AFAIK, intlwiki-l is especially for language problems (interlinking,
coding stuff etc.)

I'm just guessing here as well...

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: What the front page of the wikipedia needs is a warning for children

body:
On Thursday 14 November 2002 06:36 pm, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Propose a scheme that allows this, can be kept reasonably clean and
> implemented in an easy to use fashion, and I'll look at it. Alternatively,
>   root for my team certification proposal, because it allows just that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

Hm. Your idea for team certification on the one hand and Larry's Sifter idea
combined with my idea of having multiple Sifters with different foci sound
like compatible ideas to me.

Different certification teams would simply belong to different one click
Sifters (each Sifter project would have to be Wikipedia registered in order
to use the one click article upload function -- they would also have to
respect Wikipedia policies and conventions or risk losing their
registration).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Sifter-l] Re: What the front page of the wikipedia needs is a warning for children


subject: [Wikien-l] RE: WikiEN-L

body:
Axel Boldt wrote:
>Ed Poor wrote:
>
>> I am willing to moderate any English-language mailing list
>> that Elian wants me to moderate.
>
>I am against Ed administrating one of our mailing lists since he has
>repeatedly shown in the past that he is capable of all sorts of stupid
>actions in the heat of the moment.
>
>Axel

Ouch! I guess that excludes me and many other people too. I don't remember you
ever exhibiting "stupid actions in the heat of the moment" so I nominate you
to do the work.

Of course if you or somebody else who is similarly un-tainted doesn't want to
to do the work then I guess we will have to settle for Ed.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Wikitech-l] RE: WikiEN-L


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: TMC

body:
On Thu, 2002-11-14 at 16:16, Throbbing Monster Cock wrote:
> The one true voice of power associated with Wikipedia,
> Jimbo, has ruled.  That ruling is that my account will
> be deleted.

Or rather, renamed. You're not being banned from editing.

> Finally, I'll point out that Brion is correct that
> deciding to adjucate the offensiveness of usernames is
> just opening a whole new can of worms.

You're probably thinking of someone else. All I said on the subject was
that if you treat the typing-saving convenience feature that is the
signature nickname as a functional replacement of the username, whatever
issues you have with usernames automatically slide onto the nicknames;
ergo "censor the nicks not the usernames and use the nicknames
everywhere" is a null solution.

Personally I am not offended by wacky usernames such as the one in
question and think little of people who are, but I'm not nearly as
concerned about "censorship" of *usernames* as I would be about
censorship of *encyclopedic content* or banning of *contributors* who
are clearly making a good-faith effort to help the project.

This is not an issue of "censorship" so much as one of a professional
dress-code. This is a serious project; try to look sharp.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: tarquin

body:
I can't find the email, but in the last few days someone mentioned that
if Wikipedia no longer allowed open editing, they would consider leaving.

The ability of all to edit seems to be a very important principle, and
one that we're sticking to at a time when we seem to be bombarded with
edit wars, disruptive users and vandalism.

Yet now we're suggesting that we don't allow everyone the right to read?

I'd rather we cleaned up objectionable articles.


body:
> How about Wikipolicy-l ?

We don't need a policy list. We don't even need the international list.
All we need are the language-specific lists and a meta-list for
coordination. The meta-list should be wikipedia-l. Oh, and of course
wikitech-l.

Traffic on wikipedia-l is currently high because stuff related to the
English wiki only, esp. admin requests, goes there as well as policy
discussions. If we separate the two, traffic should be manageable.

Too many lists are almost never a good idea, it makes it very hard to
follow important ideas. Only when there is a clear distinction (I don't
care about Poland's WP problems unless they are related to the code) we
should separate. The intwiki-l goals are not sufficiently distinct from a
policy-only wikipedia-l to warrant separation.

Ed, if you say you're willing to moderate, I hope you're only referring to
form, not content. Much as I appreciate your hard work, I do not want you
(or almost anyone) to be the lone moderator of the content.

Regards,

Erik


body:
> NPOV is one thing that distinguishes us. There's less of a whitewash on
> Communism in Wikipedia than in Britannica.

And lots of propaganda, too. [[Gulag]] is hardly NPOV, for example.

> There's also a lot more about X-rated and XXX-rated sexual practices here.

Now even sexual practices are X-rated in America? Do women have to wear
warning labels? In that case America definitely gets a double cross rating
from me. Well on the way to a full blown theocracy.

> I don't know if this requires a warning label -- at least not until we start
> shipping the CD-ROM version.

You can stick whatever you want on the US CD-ROM. ;-)

Wikipedia doesn't need any warning labels. What it does need is a decision
making process.

Regards,

Erik


body:
> I can agree that if we give the parents the opportunity

Please, get away from that non-NPOV "parents who want their children not
to see .." assumption. If we build filters, they should be applicable for
any purpose whatsoever, be it parents->children or Chinese elite->Chinese
citizens.

Propose a scheme that allows this, can be kept reasonably clean and
implemented in an easy to use fashion, and I'll look at it. Alternatively,
root for my team certification proposal, because it allows just that.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Sifter-l] Meta-tag filters bad, Sifter good

body:
On Thursday 14 November 2002 11:27 pm, Daniel Mayer wrote:
>.....
> Under the Sifter plan, Wikipedia will simply be a
> common resource that all the Sifter projects use and do their editing on.

Oh crap. I did not intend in any way to have the word "simply" after
"Wikipedia will". Under the Sifter plan Wikipedia itself will be changed very
little (all that is needed is to code an easy upload ability and perhaps a
boilerplate stating something like; "A previous version of this article has
been certified by X, Y and Z Sifter projects" with links to the Sifter
versions).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: Re: [Sifter-l] Meta-tag filters bad, Sifter good


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] windshield police

body:
Mav wrote:

>TMC wrote:

>>If it makes you feel any better, the gang considers
>>the intact windshields to be the "means of production"
>>through which broken windshields are produced.
>>Because the social class of "car owners" cannot use
>>their ownership of these means of production to exert
>>control over the gang, it is necessary for the gang to
>>take "possession" of the windshields while they put
>>they to the use of being smashed.

>That's a bunch of relativistic morality crap. If somebody goes to the effort
>of building something or working their ass-off to pay for something it is
>absolutely wrong for somebody else to destroy that. Basic morality 101.

Absolutely wrong?  If you can't imagine situations where destroying
something that somebody built is morally justifiable,
then I think that you suffer from a lack of imagination.
Examples on request.

>If this is your true position then there is no reason to try and reason with
>you because your frame of reference is totally unreasonable.

There is no lack of reason on TMC's part.
Logic alone isn't enough to allow you to conclude
that any particular ethical stance is correct;
you must start with some assumptions.
Perhaps there is no reason to try and reason with TMC
because he doesn't share any assumptions with you?

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] windshield police

body:
Jonathan Walther wrote:

>TMC wrote:

>>My "true position" is that there are no absolute
>>morals, and that all frames of reference are equal.

>That's the morality of a sociopath, and not conducive to cohesive
>communities.

This reminds me of the (now thankfully rare) response to atheism
that says that infidels can't have any ethical principles.
Of course it's quite possible to derive ethical principles
from a source other than religious beliefs about God's opinions.
I manage to do this, for example, without difficulty.

Now you imply that if someone has *no* absolute ethical principles,
then they're incapable of acting morally (that is, they're sociopathic).
This is equally false; it's quite possible to act morally
on a basis other than your own absolute ethical principles.
I manage to do this too, as it happens, although I'm a weak example
(I have ethical principles, as per the previous paragraph,
but I often restrict my behaviour morally
even when my ethical principles argue otherwise);
I know some other people with no ethics whatsoever
that provide better examples.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Our options; *your* opinion requested

body:
The Cunctator wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>Banning users like Helga and Lir, however, needs clarified rules,

>Considering that only Helga has been banned, it might be healthier not
>to stick Lir in with her.

It wasn't meant to be a selection of banned people,
but a selection of people that were proposed for banning.
I listed one banned in the end and one not banned in the end,
to indicate the full range.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fucking Asshole

body:
Ed Poor wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>Do we have a standard on not showing the goat man's naked butt?
>>We have standards on not violating copyright and on vandalising;
>>either of these alone is sufficient for those specific cases.
>>I personally wouldn't want to enshrine an additional standard.

>Don't we have a standard?

We have standards, but I'm not aware of any about goatse as such.

>There isn't a single instance of a link to the goatse image other than on the
>article about it.

I can't think of anywhere else that such a link would be relevant.
We have a standard against inclusion of irrelevant links,
and we had it before goatse ever appeared.

>Every time it has appeared, people have given it a good swift kick in the, er,
>I mean deleted the link as soon as possible. It's the single most common entry
>in "vandalism in progress".

Every time it has appeared has been, in fact, a case of vandalism.
It's also presumably been a copyright infringement.
We have standards against vandalism and copyright infringement,
and we had them before goatse ever appeared.

>Then someone decided to remove the ability of ANYONE to make in-line links to
>external images. I noticed that when the "mediator" cartoon gracing my user
>page disappeared.

This change was suggested in the wake of one goatse vandalism spree, yes,
but I (and many others) supported it for quite different reasons,
all (IIRC) of which have been mentioned to you in others' responses by now.
So we have a standard against directly linking external images,
for those reasons.

>Oh, we have a standard all right. We're debating whether it should be
>"official" or what.

I don't think that it's much of a surprise that ordinary standards
would lead to a situation where goatse has a difficult time
legitimately appearing in about any form at about any place on Wikipedia.
It really is true that that image is hardly appropriate for Wikipedia;
that follows from general principles, not as a special case.
This isn't a conspiracy of hypocritcal standards
designed to banish that image without admitting that we're doing so.
So there's no reason to create an explicit standard against it,
and I'd certainly oppose such a thing.

-- Toby


body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

>Giskart wrote:

>>And Intlwiki-L? Is not the list for all wikipedia's?

>AFAIK, intlwiki-l is especially for language problems (interlinking,
>coding stuff etc.)

That's certainly the case in mav's proposal.
Are we now adopting that?  I support it.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] RE: WikiEN-L

body:
Mav wrote:

>Of course if you or somebody else who is similarly un-tainted doesn't want to
>to do the work then I guess we will have to settle for Ed.

Or not have moderation.
Other than approving posts by nonmembers, why do we need it?
When was this decided?

-- Toby


subject: [Wikitech-l] RE: WikiEN-L


subject: [Wikipedia-l] F***ing A**hole

body:
Jason Williams wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>Every time it has appeared has been, in fact, a case of vandalism.
>>It's also presumably been a copyright infringement.
>>We have standards against vandalism and copyright infringement,
>>and we had them before goatse ever appeared.

>So what you're saying is that if somebody created an article [[goatse.cx]]
>or somesuch, with an encyclopeadic writeup, and got permission from the
>copyright owner, then that would be fine by you?

(Note that everything except the copyright permission is already on [[en:]].)
Yes, that would be fine by me, although I know that others would object.
If the group decided not to allow the now permitted and relevant image,
still that would require discussion; we don't have that standard now.

>I'm not specifically raising any objection to that, just trying to be
>clear.

Clear?

-- Toby


body:
Mav wrote:

>How about this; Have a link in the footer area of each page that simply says
>"Disclaimer and Copyright Notice"

>1) We could warn people not to depend on Wikipedia for data that will be used
>to design intergalactic probes, find cures for cancer or operate on kittens
>because we can't make any promises as to the accuracy of the information we
>present in spite of the fact that most of us try our best to write excellent
>and correct material (also a disclaimer of legal liability would be nice).

IANAL, but I think that we may be on a much safer legal footing
if we include such a disclaimer that our info shouldn't be trusted
for air traffic control and things of that nature.
There must be a reason that everybody else has one, right?
Does Jimbo have any lawyers to advise us on the wording?

-- Toby


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikitech-l digest, Vol 1 #230 - 17 msgs

body:
From: Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu>

Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Request for setting up of
the Polish mailing list

>Jimmy Wales wrote:
>>I thought that was just a joke.
>The request for <wikiEN-l>?  That's no joke.
>It's certainly still a controversial subject,
>but there are a lot of us that think that such a list
should >exist, and should take most of the traffic
from <wikipedia-l>.
>See, well, practically everything anthere's written
lately.
-- Toby

Hu ? I did not have the feeling I only wrote about
that lately ! :-)

I will stay on the en.list btw. I strongly support
this change to help the international ones to get more
involved, plus to make it clear what is a english
concern, and what should be a whole community concern.

>From: The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com>
>Another mailing list is not the answer, unless it's
moderated. >A bbs needs
>to be set up.

I agree it will probably be a better choice. But, it
will certainly take time to set up.

And what do you mean by moderated ?

If it's to gently point out to messages maybe not in
the right list until people get used to it, ok. Or
what ? Content ? Why would we give the power to any
one person to decide what is worth talking about or
how we should talk ? (exxxcept Jimmy of course...)

Imho, nobody should be "declared" and accept to be
moderator of a list, without knowing what it means and
implies.

The international list could be merged with the
mainlist. Interlinking or coding are not only issues
for international wikis. It could also be issues to
the english one. Again, why setting a difference
between the english and the others ? I agree the
english is the bigger most comprehensive... one by
large, but why should that impact setting relationship
between all wikis ?

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikien-l] Testing

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Archives don't exist yet?

The archive pops into existence once the first post is made.
(A more user friendly system might have an empty archive page
explaining just this, rather than a 404 error, but anyway.)

-- Toby


subject: [Wikien-l] Getting started

body:
Michael R. Irwin wrote:

>On meta issues that seem generally
>applicable do we:

>1.  Migrate them immediately
>to the main wikipedia list for discussion
>there with other language people or

>2.  do we attempt to articulate the English consensus
>or significant alternatives first and then engage the
>other languages in discussion?

I don't see why we need any English consensus.
I'm not going to agree with you just because we're both English ^_^.

To move the discussion, crosspost.
(I'm going to start crossposting <wikipedia-l> messages here
if they concern English issues specifically.)

-- Toby


from_name: koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com

body:
mav wrote:
>1) We could warn people not to depend on Wikipedia for data that will
be used
>to design intergalatic probes,

<snip>

>2) We could also state that part of our mission is to describe works
of art in

>3) In addition we would also state that our intention to to cover all
human
>knowledge of encyclopedic value and this includes material that some
people
>may find to be objectionable or even offensive for various reasons.

I like these disclaimers.  :-)

kq


from_name: Pierre Abbat

subject: [Wikipedia-l] 217.168.172.132

body:
How do I get his attention? He is the most frequent editor of the mispeeling
page, but doesn't comment his edits. He erased the [[saltpetre]] page, which
at the time contained nonsense, but had a good article in the history.

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] goatse (was F.A.)

body:
 "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
We have a [[goatse.cx]] article, and I don't like it. But anyone who's foolish enough to click on the link for it will be able to read it. And anyone who's foolhardy enough to click on the external image link will see it.

So ?

You might - perhaps - avoid saying people who have different sensibilities than yours, are fools.

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Erik's team certification proposal

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:

> my proposal is for a certification system *within* Wikipedia,
> which might well be used by the groups you describe.

Right. I think we all understand that by now, since you keep pushing
for it about five times a day, every day, without finding many
converts.

The consensus seems to be that there is no need for a certification
system in addition to Larry's sifter. That is certainly my opinion.

So maybe we could lay this dead horse to rest.

Axel

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


body:
Erik,

I'll do as I'm told. "One is happy to be of service," as Andrew Martin used to say.

Ed Poor


body:
Excuse me, Erik, but discussions of what end users want need not be neutral. Only Wikipedia articles must follow the NPOV.

If parents or any other group with strongly held values want to sift out what they regard as antithetical to their values, why should we thwart them?

A handbook on sexual practices might sift *in* only those articles pertaining to belching (sic). It could go in the campanion CD-ROM for 'Our Bodies, Our Selves'.

An Islamic state might decide to filter out any info on Israel or Christianity -- but might decide that NPOV is just fine for the Arab-Israeli articles. Hey, you never know.

Why not come to sifter-l and discuss your team certification proposal there?

Ed Poor


body:
Erik wrote:

> Wikipedia doesn't need any warning labels. What it does need is a decision
> making process.

I've been asking all week for one -- a decision-making process, that is.

Ed Poor


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: TMC

body:
TMC complained,

> The one true voice of power associated with Wikipedia,
> Jimbo, has ruled.  That ruling is that my account will
> be deleted.

You misread Jimbo. And apparently you missed my follow-up.

Your user name is being changed. That's all.

To paraphrase Robert Heinlein in 'The Man Who Traveled in Elephants': "Don't cry till you're hurt."

Regards,

Ed Poor

P.S. Jimbo says he likes your contributions.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: TMC

body:
TMC also wrote:

> It appears that from now on calling oneself "Sweet
> Pussy", "I Love Hitler", or "George Bush is a Weenie"
> will all be bannable offenses.

I didn't conclude that from Jimbo's ruling.

But a precedent might have been set that users calling themselves by offensive names might be required to change them to something "nice".

Ed Poor


subject: [Wikipedia-l] goatse (was F.A.)

body:
We have a [[goatse.cx]] article, and I don't like it. But anyone who's foolish enough to click on the link for it will be able to read it. And anyone who's foolhardy enough to click on the external image link will see it.

And do us a favor -- or at least Karen, who requested it -- and change the f------- a------ subject line in your replies. Please.

Ed Poor


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Decision-making process

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

>Well, the obvious [decision-making process]
>would be "proposal - discussion -  decision", with decision by voting.
>Proposals are accepted until one week after the "call for proposals",
>discussion ends if the number of votes has reached a certain limit (say,
>10 or 20), or one week after all proposals have been submitted.

I don't see what's so "obvious" about this: one week, 10 or 20?
How about allowing amendments?  Shall we use Robert's Rules of Order?

>But, that would be too simple, and would prevent discussing every topic
>to a point where nothing will be done at all. It would also prevent The
>Honored Cunctator from stopping any development by being the first,
>last, and only unconvinced resistance fighter ;-)

If we require only consenus, the a sole resister can't stop us.
While Cunc is surely unique in the number of his dissents,
he's usually not close to the only dissenter in any given case
(counting only those cases where we never reach a consensus).

-- Toby


from_name: Jason Williams

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fucking Asshole

body:
On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 03:11:30AM -0800, Toby Bartels wrote:
> Every time it has appeared has been, in fact, a case of vandalism.
> It's also presumably been a copyright infringement.
> We have standards against vandalism and copyright infringement,
> and we had them before goatse ever appeared.

So what you're saying is that if somebody created an article [[goatse.cx]]
or somesuch, with an encyclopeadic writeup, and got permission from the
copyright owner, then that would be fine by you?

I'm not specifically raising any objection to that, just trying to be
clear.

--
jason at jasonandali.org.uk    http://www.jasonandali.org.uk/jason/


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [Wikipedia-l] goatse (was F.A.)

body:
Words, Mouth. I am capable of putting A into B myself, thank you.

You'd be a fool to think that I was saying that people who have different sensibilities than mine, are fools.

And you'd be an idiot to think that I just now called you either a fool or an idiot.

To clarify:
* The article entitiled [[goatse.cx]] sounds like the English phrase "goat sex".
* Anyone who wants to avoid descriptions of sex, should be wise enough not to visit that article.
* Those who read an article clearly (or even vaguely) labeled "sex" have no grounds to complain that the topic actually described sex -- or something related to it.

Same argument for clicking on an image link labelled, "Warning".

Get it now, Ant?

Ed Poor

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthere [mailto:anthere5 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:19 AM
To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] goatse (was F.A.)

 "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:

We have a [[goatse.cx]] article, and I don't like it. But anyone who's foolish enough to click on the link for it will be able to read it. And anyone who's foolhardy enough to click on the external image link will see it.

So ?

You might - perhaps - avoid saying people who have different sensibilities than yours, are fools.

  _____

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!  <http://rd.yahoo.com/hosting/mailsig/*http://webhosting.yahoo.com> Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site

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from_name: Gareth Owen

body:
Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> writes:

> How very witty. The Gulag article is not NPOV because it doesn't present the
> different estimates of the number of people who were killed by the Gulag
> system. "40 million people have been killed by this system" is hardly a
> generally acknowledged fact.

So, erm, why not add the others?
--
Gareth Owen
"Wikipedia does rock.  By the count on the "brilliant prose" page, there
 are 14 not-bad articles so far" -- Larry Sanger (12 Jan 2001)


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
> Let's have some additions from you about the bright positive side of
> the Gulag.  Which part of slave labor by political prisoners do you
> like best?

How very witty. The Gulag article is not NPOV because it doesn't present the
different estimates of the number of people who were killed by the Gulag
system. "40 million people have been killed by this system" is hardly a
generally acknowledged fact.

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


body:
I'm not sure the consensus is to reject Erik's idea.

Erik is still for it. And I'd like to see it happen, if we can find a way that's technically feasible and doesn't conflict with the Wikipedia's main goals.

Nonetheless, Larry's idea has several advantages:
1. Magnus already wrote some software for it.
2. It doesn't require any change to PediaWiki software.
3. It's troll-proof.
4. We can start testing it any day now.

Erik's idea has my support, plus the support of a few others (sorry, names escape me, it's been a hectic week).

One way to support team certification on Wikipedia is similar to sifter:
* Create certification teams
* Let any team member certify any article
* Display a list of articles, each of which is certified by every member of a given team.

This can be done in software. I've begun sketching out a simple design already. If there's enough interest, we can move discussion to wikitech-l for implementation.

Ed Poor


body:
> Hm. Your idea for team certification on the one hand and Larry's Sifter
> idea
> combined with my idea of having multiple Sifters with different foci sound
>
> like compatible ideas to me.

Indeed, and it's good that Larry is moving forward with his Sifter project.
But I do not like the idea of having many different Wikipedia forks, because
these will, per definitionem, only be selections of articles, whereas I would
simply like to have information *within* Wikipedia that Team FOO has
certified revision BAR as BAZ. This wouldn't mean that you would no longer be able
to look at uncertified (unstable by the software analogy) articles. You would
just get information that a previous revision has been certified by a team in
your trusted team list if that's the case.

This clearly requires more changes to the Wikipedia code than the Sifter
idea, but if we introduce team certification at all, I propose it should be done
under a scheme integrated in Wikipedia.

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] goatse (was F.A.)

body:
|From: Anthere <anthere5 at yahoo.com>
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:18:33 -0800 (PST)
|
|--0-1467761140-1037377113=:2558
|Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
|
| "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
|We have a [[goatse.cx]] article, and I don't like it. But anyone who's foolish enough to click on the link for it will be able to read it. And anyone who's foolhardy enough to click on the external image link will see it.
|
|So ?
|
|You might - perhaps - avoid saying people who have different sensibilities than yours, are fools.
|
|
|

You don't have to be a fool to be foolhardy "delighting in needless
risks".  Have you followed that link?  Do you ever want to see it
again?

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88


from_name: Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz

body:
On 14-11-2002, Jason Richey wrote thusly :
> I'll set this up today.  My plan is to name you as the administrator
> for the list.  Please let me know if you would prefer not to be the
> admin.  Give me 5 minutes to set it up, but the posting address will
> be:
>
> WikiPL-l at wikipedia.org
>
> and the subscription/info page will be:
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipl-l

Jason,

Thanks a lot for your quick response. I am sure Polish Wikipedians will
appreciate this mailing list.

Best regards,
Kpjas.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Image archive download?

body:
Hi,

is there a way to download the image directory of the en.wikipedia?
There are the database tarballs, but those do not include the images.

Regards,

Erik
--
FOKUS - Fraunhofer Insitute for Open Communication Systems
Project BerliOS - http://www.berlios.de


subject: [Wikipedia-l] 217.168.172.132

body:
I don't know how to the attention of 217.168.172.132.

He has made 37 edits to [[List_of_common_misspellings]] since his arrival on November 9th.

You might try this, although it sounds severe:
* Each time he makes an edit, revert it.
* Include an attention-getting comment on each revert.
* Put the same comment, or a longer one in the talk page.

Beware, this might drive away an otherwise good contributor.

Ed Poor


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fucking Asshole

body:
> So what you're saying is that if somebody created an article [[goatse.cx]]
> or somesuch, with an encyclopeadic writeup, and got permission from the
> copyright owner, then that would be fine by you?

There is already a goatse.cx article, without the image. I think the
description of the image is more than enough, furthermore, posting material that can
be classified as pornography can get us into legal trouble. To pick a
somewhat less offensive example than goatse.cx, say we wanted to illustrate
articles about porn movies -- sooner or later someone is probably going to write
them. I don't think we could legally complement these articles with pornographic
screen captures, even if we wanted to.

If Jimbo wants to take the risk, however, I'm all for it.

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


body:
> > How very witty. The Gulag article is not NPOV because it doesn't present
> the
> > different estimates of the number of people who were killed by the Gulag
> > system. "40 million people have been killed by this system" is hardly a
> > generally acknowledged fact.
>
> So, erm, why not add the others?

Because a complex subject like [[Gulag]], with so much propaganda from both
sides, requires intensive non-web research. Optimally, there would be a table
with the different estimates and the attribution to the different sources,
followed by discussion of their methodology. A detailed comparison with the
Nazi concentration camps would also be necessary.  I'm more than busy enough
with Hypatia and the Library of Alexandria, although I may try to improve the
current version somewhat.

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] goatse (was F.A.)

body:
>Have you followed that link?
I saw the picture once on the current events (I
think), but didnot realize it was *that* image you
were all talking about.
And, then, I followed the link some weeks later (I'm
*curious*). And discover it again.

>Do you ever want to see it again?

Maybe a third time is not really necessary :-(

But then, what do you propose to avoid the link to be
inserted without anybody noticing ? A special query
for "well-known" offensive web links ? That could be
added in the special maintenance pages for people to
check from time to time ?

__________________________________________________
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body:
Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> writes:

> Mav wrote:
>
> >Of course if you or somebody else who is similarly un-tainted doesn't want to
> >to do the work then I guess we will have to settle for Ed.
>
> Or not have moderation.
> Other than approving posts by nonmembers, why do we need it?
> When was this decided?

Never. The question was about administration, not moderation. Choosing
taglines, defining welcome greetings and all the technical stuff.

greetings,
elian


subject: [Wikitech-l] RE: WikiEN-L


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Decision-making process (was: What the front page of the wikipedia needs is a warning for children)

body:
On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 03:33:39PM +0100, Magnus Manske wrote:
> Well, the obvoius would be "proposal - discussion -  decision", with
> decision by voting.

A proposal/amendment process works quite well IME. A proposal is made,
for example;

 "That pornographic images should be banned from wikipedia articles"

Amendments are then proposed, using commands such as "insert", "delete",
"replace". for example;

 Amendment 1 - After "should", insert "not"

 Amendment 2 - Before "pornographic", insert "particularly obscene"

Each person then votes for the motion as proposed, or an amendment.

--
jason at jasonandali.org.uk    http://www.jasonandali.org.uk/jason/


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Decision-making process (was: What the front page of the wikipedia
 needs is a warning for children)

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>Erik wrote:
>
>
>>Wikipedia doesn't need any warning labels. What it does need is a decision
>>making process.
>>
>>
>
>I've been asking all week for one -- a decision-making process, that is.
>
>
Well, the obvoius would be "proposal - discussion -  decision", with
decision by voting.
Proposals are accepted until one week after the "call for proposals",
discussion ends if the number of votes has reached a certain limit (say,
10 or 20), or one week after all proposals have been submitted.

But, that would be too simple, and would prevent discussing every topic
to a point where nothing will be done at all. It would also prevent The
Honored Cunctator from stopping any development by being the first,
last, and only unconvinced resistance fighter ;-)

So, disregard the proposal above as a dream from someone who prefers to
get things done...

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Purpose of English Language Wikipedia mailing list

body:
an english list to reduce traffic at wikipedia-l

some guys from the de.wikipedia want to discuss the project
without hearing about TMC and related stuff in 95% of the mails...

there are a lot of us that think that such a list should exist,
and should take most of the traffic from <wikipedia-l>

Please try to decide if your message is of concern for wikipedia as a
whole (all language wikipedias) or if it concerns the English Wikipedia
only (problems with users or articles, projects, internal organization
etc.) and send your message accordingly.

You will help the foreigners a lot, who are struggling with the English
language and desperately trying to filter out the relevant stuff for them
on wikipedia-l  ;-)

wikipedia-l should be about the
"project as whole", while wikien-l is specifically about the English
wikipedia.

Since the list is not moderated, it's just normal list-administration -
choosing taglines, settings and so on, but it is better if a
native-speaker does them.

All we need are the language-specific lists and a meta-list for
coordination. The meta-list should be wikipedia-l. Oh, and of course
wikitech-l.

Traffic on wikipedia-l is currently high because stuff related to the
English wiki only, esp. admin requests, goes there as well as policy
discussions. If we separate the two, traffic should be manageable.

I will stay on the en.list btw. I strongly support
this change to help the international ones to get more
involved, plus to make it clear what is a english
concern, and what should be a whole community concern.

The question was about administration, not moderation. Choosing
taglines, defining welcome greetings and all the technical stuff.
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subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: New mailing list

body:
an english list to reduce traffic at wikipedia-l

some guys from the de.wikipedia want to discuss the project
without hearing about TMC and related stuff in 95% of the mails...

there are a lot of us that think that such a list should exist,
and should take most of the traffic from <wikipedia-l>

Please try to decide if your message is of concern for wikipedia as a
whole (all language wikipedias) or if it concerns the English Wikipedia
only (problems with users or articles, projects, internal organization
etc.) and send your message accordingly.

You will help the foreigners a lot, who are struggling with the English
language and desperately trying to filter out the relevant stuff for them
on wikipedia-l  ;-)

wikipedia-l should be about the
"project as whole", while wikien-l is specifically about the English
wikipedia.

Since the list is not moderated, it's just normal list-administration -
choosing taglines, settings and so on, but it is better if a
native-speaker does them.

All we need are the language-specific lists and a meta-list for
coordination. The meta-list should be wikipedia-l. Oh, and of course
wikitech-l.

Traffic on wikipedia-l is currently high because stuff related to the
English wiki only, esp. admin requests, goes there as well as policy
discussions. If we separate the two, traffic should be manageable.

I will stay on the en.list btw. I strongly support
this change to help the international ones to get more
involved, plus to make it clear what is a english
concern, and what should be a whole community concern.

The question was about administration, not moderation. Choosing
taglines, defining welcome greetings and all the technical stuff.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] What the front page of the wikipedia needs is a warning for children

body:
> Why not come to sifter-l and discuss your team certification proposal
> there?

Ed, I know you like to advertise sifter-l wherever you can, but my proposal
is for a certification system *within* Wikipedia, which might well be used by
the groups you describe. All I'm opposing is a system exclusively dedicated
to a specific purpose (e.g. family filters), I am not opposed to generic
systems.

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


from_name: Michael R. Irwin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Decision Making Process - Please Participate

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> Jimbo Wales has agreed to work with all interested participants on a page
> that describes the different types of process that can be used to make
> decisions about Wikipedia policies and their interpretations. When we agree that the
> page is more or less finished, Jimbo will announce a decision based on the
> arguments presented there.
>
> If you have particular ideas about how decisions should or should not be
> made, please present them on this page. There isn't too much there yet, but it
> will hopefully grow as others weigh in:
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ADecision_Making_Process
>
> The current options are voting and consensus-finding. Please add arguments
> for and against these options in an NPOV-style, and try to add other options
> or variants as well.
>
> This is something, I think, every Wikipedian should be interested in to help
> us avoid stagnation and endless debates.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

At this risk of appearing pedantic, is there is reason this
is placed in the English Wikipedia accessed via wikipedia.org
instead of at the meta.wikipedia.org?

Regards,
Mike Irwin


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia-l vs. wikiEN-l

body:
I added the following to the WikiEN-l Info page at http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

> This list is about the English-language Wikipedia only.
> For issues relating to the Wikipedia project as a whole,
> please use Wikipedia-l mailing list.

Ed Poor
WikiEN-l Administrator (de facto and provisional)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia-l vs. wikiEN-l


body:
"Poor, Edmund W" wrote:
>
> I'm not sure the consensus is to reject Erik's idea.
>
> Erik is still for it. And I'd like to see it happen, if we can find a way that's technically feasible and doesn't conflict with the Wikipedia's main goals.
>
> Nonetheless, Larry's idea has several advantages:
> 1. Magnus already wrote some software for it.
> 2. It doesn't require any change to PediaWiki software.
> 3. It's troll-proof.
> 4. We can start testing it any day now.
>
> Erik's idea has my support, plus the support of a few others (sorry, names escape me, it's been a hectic week).

It sounds interesting to me for general use in
information wikis but I am not certain I think
it is a good idea for the English Wikipedia at the moment.

>
> One way to support team certification on Wikipedia is similar to sifter:
> * Create certification teams
> * Let any team member certify any article
> * Display a list of articles, each of which is certified by every member of a given team.

Unanimity sure slows things down occasionally.

I wonder if implementing a trust metric similar to that
used at advogato.org but generalized to allow team members
to certify/scale each other and users to set their evaluation
of the team's product would work better.

This way a selection could be reported as per the weight
given by a subset of team members as modified by your
personal opinion of the team's typical results.

Regards,
Mike Irwin


body:
Hi,

I would find it deeply regrettable if we would not use the full power of
wikis for a voting process. What works on article pages works just as well on
proposals. The only functionality that needs to be added to Wikipedia is a poll
system, possibly within its own namespace, and a respective "Recent polls"
list.

I have proposed a more detailed scheme here:
http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2002-November/007335.html

(URL needs to be pasted together if broken in the middle)

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


subject: [Wikitech-l] TMC script

body:
Hey, Brion or Magnus or LDC,

When are you going to run the TMC name change script?

Ed Poor


from_name: Kurt Jansson

body:
Hi Toby, hi list!

> IANAL, but I think that we may be on a much safer legal footing
> if we include such a disclaimer that our info shouldn't be trusted
> for air traffic control and things of that nature.
> There must be a reason that everybody else has one, right?

That's the reason why the [[meme]] concept works ... :-)

Many German Websites have a disclaimer, that they are not responsible
for the content of sites that are linked from their site. It's quite
wordy, a certain court decision is mentioned, etc. ...
They are absolutely useless. Even worse, they could be held against the
site owner as a sign that he knew a linked site contained illegal
content.

But everybody thinks: The others have a disclaimer, so I need one, too.

If US-laws enforce us to use a disclaimer, okay. But, hmm, anybody know
what's "vorauseilender Gehorsam" is in English? I mean: We shouldn't, if
we don't have to. :-)

> Does Jimbo have any lawyers to advise us on the wording?

I guess the first employed person of the foundation will (or has to) be
a lawyer (with special experience in copyrights and responsibilities of
site owners/providers). :-(

Kurt


from_name: Paul Ebermann

subject: [Wikitech-l] Request for setting up of the Polish mailing list

body:
"Jason Richey" skribis:

> Anybody else need a list?

Yes. Can you please set up a list for
Esperanto?
So we can stop using the yahoogroups-list ...

Paul


body:
Jimbo Wales has agreed to work with all interested participants on a page
that describes the different types of process that can be used to make
decisions about Wikipedia policies and their interpretations. When we agree that the
page is more or less finished, Jimbo will announce a decision based on the
arguments presented there.

If you have particular ideas about how decisions should or should not be
made, please present them on this page. There isn't too much there yet, but it
will hopefully grow as others weigh in:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ADecision_Making_Process

The current options are voting and consensus-finding. Please add arguments
for and against these options in an NPOV-style, and try to add other options
or variants as well.

This is something, I think, every Wikipedian should be interested in to help
us avoid stagnation and endless debates.

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: Wikipedia-l vs. wikiEN-l

body:
I set the terse phrase identifying the wikiEN-l list to
"Discussion list for English-language Wikipedia"

You can see this on the http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo page.

P.S. That's the 2nd admin thing I've done to wikiEN-l and either one can be reverted on request.

Ed Poor
WikiEN-l Administrator (de facto and provisional)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Wikipedia-l vs. wikiEN-l


body:
> The consensus seems to be that there is no need for a certification
> system in addition to Larry's sifter.

False. Several people have supported the idea, and even Larry himself has
said that the certification system may well complement his sifter idea, one of
his main arguments against it, IIRC, was the use of the word "team". Please
don't spread FUD about ideas you disagree with.

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


from_name: Karen AKA Kajikit

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
> We don't need some warning on the Main Page for "protecting" sensitive eyes -
> that is just plain silly. As somebody already mentioned the vast majority of
> hits we get are through external search engines that bring viewers to
> individual articles. Also if the viewer has parental controls on while using
> the external search engine then they won't land on any "objectionable"
> Wikipedia articles.
>
> How about this; Have a link in the footer area of each page that simply says
> "Disclaimer and Copyright Notice"
>
> Then we could have a general disclaimer (as most large websites do) that can
> say several things;
>
> 1) We could warn people not to depend on Wikipedia for data that will be used
> to design intergalatic probes, find cures for cancer or operate on kittens
> because we can't make any promises as to the accuracy of the information we
> present in spite of the fact that most of us try our best to write excellent
> and correct material (also a disclaimer of legal liability would be nice).
> 2) We could also state that part of our mission is to describe works of art in
> a comprehensive mannor so we will be giving away plots and the endings of
> stories.
> 3) In addition we would also state that our intention to to cover all human
> knowledge of encyclopedic value and this includes material that some people
> may find to be objectionable or even offensive for various reasons.
>
> No need for meta-tag based filters and no need for a message on the main page
> that hardly anybody who might need it would ever see.

I think we ought to have a disclaimer to cover our tails... at least
then we could say that we were doing SOMETHING!

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

To err is human... to really foul things up add kitten and stir.

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating
Ample Aussies Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ampleaussies/


from_name: Matthew Woodcraft

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Decision-making process

in_reply_to: <20021115182725.GA4799@math-rs-n01.ucr.edu>; from toby+wikipedia@math.ucr.edu on Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 10:27:25AM -0800

body:
On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 10:27:25AM -0800, Toby Bartels wrote:
> How about allowing amendments?  Shall we use Robert's Rules of Order?

Robert's Rules are really designed for a situation where everyone is in
the same room (and trying to all talk at once). The problems on a wiki
or a mailing list are different.

In particular, Robert's Rules rely heavily on having a single chair,
which would surely cause difficulty here.

Also, I don't think the method of having a single motion which gets
'voted into shape' by amendments, before the final form is voted on,
would be the best for us (if we decide we want to use voting at all).

-M-


from_name: youandme at poczta.fm

subject: [Wikitech-l] stop-words

body:
Hi list,

I'm planning to compile a list of stop-words for Polish Wikipedia.
I wanted to base on English list which exists somewhere for sure,
as it is incorporated in English Wikipedia. I browsed through CVS,
searched through Wikipedia namespaces and found none.
Is it a copyrighted material?
If no, can somebody give me hint where I can find it
or place it eg. somewhere in Wikipedia: namespace or on meta.
It will be usefull for all languages, I'm sure!
Eg. it could be a part of help on serching.

And if Polish stop-words are collected, can they be incorporated
into software of Polish Wikipedia before upgrade to Phase III?

Regards
User:Youandme

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Znajdz swoja druga polowe... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1681


subject: [wikitech-l] stop-words

body:
Hi list,

I'm planning to compile a list of stop words for Polish Wikipedia.
I wanted to base on English list which exists somewhere for sure,
as it is incorporated in English Wikipedia. I browsed through CVS,
searched through Wikipedia namespaces and found none.
Is it a copyrighted material?
If no, can somebody give me hint where I can find it
or place it eg. somewhere in Wikipedia: namespace or on meta.
It will be usefull for all languages, I'm sure!
Eg. it could be a part of help on serching.

And if Polish stop words are collected, can they be incorporated
into software of Polish Wikipedia before upgrade to Phase III?

Regards
User:Youandme


from_name: elian

subject: [wikitech-l] stop-words

body:
Hello,

youandme at poczta.fm writes:

> I'm planning to compile a list of stop words for Polish Wikipedia.
> I wanted to base on English list which exists somewhere for sure,
> as it is incorporated in English Wikipedia. I browsed through CVS,
> searched through Wikipedia namespaces and found none.

Here is the stopwordlist. Should be also in the cvs.

greetings,
elian
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--
In case of emergency, the only thing better
than presence of mind, is absence of body.


subject: [wikitech-l] stop-words

body:
On 15 Nov 2002 at 21:23, elian wrote:
> Hello,
>
> youandme at poczta.fm writes:
>
> > I'm planning to compile a list of stop words for Polish Wikipedia. I
> > wanted to base on English list which exists somewhere for sure, as
> > it is incorporated in English Wikipedia. I browsed through CVS,
> > searched through Wikipedia namespaces and found none.
>
> Here is the stopwordlist. Should be also in the cvs.
>
> greetings,
> elian

Thank you elian,
Shame on me... I know I should start wearing contact lenses :-)
Hmmm... I grepped only "stopwords" and variations, and here I see "Fullstop".
Anyway, looking at syntax I see that it is rather not localized.
No En suffixes. So non-English Wikipedias should replace that file
with their own copy or any "switch" based on language setup is planned?
Greetings
User:Youandme

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Znajdz swoja druga polowe... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1681


subject: [wikitech-l] stop-words

body:
 <youandme at poczta.fm> skribis:

> I'm planning to compile a list of stop words for Polish Wikipedia. [...]
> And if Polish stop words are collected, can they be incorporated
> into software of Polish Wikipedia before upgrade to Phase III?

If I remember correctly, the stopwords are used
internally by the database and cannot simply be changed.

The list is duplicated in the PHP software for
not searching stop words (since this would not
give any results). So changing the list in the
software (for example by translating it) does
not give any advantage, but instead can give
unexpected results when searching.

If anyone knows better, please correct me.

Paul


from_name: Jonathan Walther

subject: [Wikitech-l] questions about the SQL structure

body:
If someone can answer some of the following questions, that would be
great.  I'm going to paste each SQL table definition, then ask questions
about it.  I'll number each question so I can keep track of which ones
still aren't answered at the end of the week. :-)

I'm sure Ed Poor will have more insightful and relevant questions than
the ones I'm posting below; Brion and you other developers, please don't
be offended at the tone of the questions.  I seek knowledge only.

CREATE TABLE archive (
  ar_namespace tinyint(2) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  ar_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  ar_text mediumtext NOT NULL,
  ar_comment tinyblob NOT NULL,
  ar_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  ar_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  ar_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
  ar_minor_edit tinyint(1) NOT NULL default '0',
  ar_flags tinyblob NOT NULL
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

1) What is the "archive" table for? Is that where articles are stored?

2) Why is there a separate ar_user_text property?  Is it because MySQL
doesn't support subqueries?

3) What is ar_flags used for?  And why is it a tinyblob?

4) Could we save a lot of disk space by replacing ar_title with
article_id, and having all the article titles and their corresponding
ids in a separate table?

CREATE TABLE brokenlinks (
  bl_from int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  bl_to varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  KEY bl_from (bl_from),
  KEY bl_to (bl_to(10))
) TYPE=MyISAM;

5) Why is a broken link table necessary?  Couldn't it be sufficient to
do a query to find out which links are broken?  Or is this another "we
have no subqueries" issue?

6) I notice bl_from is an integer, while bl_to is a string; why the
difference?  I thought articles didn't have identifying id numbers; if
so, what is bl_from then?

CREATE TABLE cur (
  cur_id int(8) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
  cur_namespace tinyint(2) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  cur_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  cur_text mediumtext NOT NULL,
  cur_comment tinyblob NOT NULL,
  cur_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  cur_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  cur_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
  cur_restrictions tinyblob NOT NULL,
  cur_counter bigint(20) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  cur_ind_title varchar(255) NOT NULL default '',
  cur_ind_text mediumtext NOT NULL,
  cur_is_redirect tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  cur_minor_edit tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  cur_is_new tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  UNIQUE KEY cur_id (cur_id),
  KEY cur_namespace (cur_namespace),
  KEY cur_title (cur_title(20)),
  KEY cur_timestamp (cur_timestamp),
  FULLTEXT KEY cur_ind_title (cur_ind_title),
  FULLTEXT KEY cur_ind_text (cur_ind_text)
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

7) What is the table cur for?  I find myself understanding nothing about
it; I even looked at the 3 default entries that are inserted, and they
didn't clue me in.

CREATE TABLE image (
  img_name varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  img_size int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  img_description tinyblob NOT NULL,
  img_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  img_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  img_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
  KEY img_name (img_name(10)),
  KEY img_size (img_size),
  KEY img_timestamp (img_timestamp)
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

8) Is img_user_text present for the "MySQL has no subquery
functionality" reason?

9) What format are timestamps in?

10) Is there special PHP code that ensures an image with the same name,
but differing descriptions or img_user properties are present in the
table?  Does MySQL not have the "UNIQUE" keyword which could eliminate
all need for that code, or is it wanted to have a record of all changes
to the description of an image?  If so, I would recommend a slightly
different solution, similar to that for the articles table.

CREATE TABLE imagelinks (
  il_from varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  il_to varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  KEY il_from (il_from(10)),
  KEY il_to (il_to(10))
) TYPE=MyISAM;

11) Surely we could save space by using integer article ids?

CREATE TABLE ipblocks (
  ipb_address varchar(40) binary NOT NULL default '',
  ipb_user int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  ipb_by int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  ipb_reason tinyblob NOT NULL,
  ipb_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
  KEY ipb_address (ipb_address),
  KEY ipb_user (ipb_user)
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

12) No questions, but why is the KEY keyword used? Is this a MySQL
trigger for making indexes?  Also, theres a bunch of things that could
use the UNIQUE keyword to save php code.

CREATE TABLE links (
  l_from varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  l_to int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  KEY l_from (l_from(10)),
  KEY l_to (l_to)
) TYPE=MyISAM;

13) Similar to the question about the orphanedlinks table, why is l_from
a string, while l_to is an integer?

CREATE TABLE old (
  old_id int(8) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
  old_namespace tinyint(2) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  old_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  old_text mediumtext NOT NULL,
  old_comment tinyblob NOT NULL,
  old_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  old_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  old_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
  old_minor_edit tinyint(1) NOT NULL default '0',
  old_flags tinyblob NOT NULL,
  UNIQUE KEY old_id (old_id),
  KEY old_title (old_title(20)),
  KEY old_timestamp (old_timestamp)
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

14) What is table "old" used for? Deleted articles?  Versions of
articles that are no longer "the most current"?

CREATE TABLE oldimage (
  oi_name varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  oi_archive_name varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  oi_size int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  oi_description tinyblob NOT NULL,
  oi_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  oi_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  oi_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
  KEY oi_name (oi_name(10))
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

15) So, history IS stored for each image?  Then I recommend the scheme
of having a separate table for unique image names, and their
corresponding "image id"

CREATE TABLE random (
  ra_current tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  ra_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default ''
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

16) What is this "random" table for?

CREATE TABLE recentchanges (
  rc_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
  rc_cur_time varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
  rc_user int(10) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  rc_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  rc_namespace tinyint(3) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  rc_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  rc_comment varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  rc_minor tinyint(3) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  rc_new tinyint(3) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  rc_cur_id int(10) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  rc_this_oldid int(10) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  rc_last_oldid int(10) unsigned NOT NULL default '0'
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

17) Could the recent changes table be replaced with an appropriately
defined "view"?  Or are views something MySQL doesn't do very well?

CREATE TABLE site_stats (
  ss_row_id int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  ss_total_views bigint(20) unsigned default '0',
  ss_total_edits bigint(20) unsigned default '0',
  ss_good_articles bigint(20) unsigned default '0',
  UNIQUE KEY ss_row_id (ss_row_id)
) TYPE=MyISAM;

18) What is ss_row_id and ss_good_articles?  How does this table work?
Does it contain stats for each article?  Shouldn't that go in the table
that already contains the info for an article?  That would lessen the
number of SQL updates, collapsing two UPDATE statements into one.

CREATE TABLE user (
  user_id int(5) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
  user_name varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
  user_rights tinyblob NOT NULL,
  user_password tinyblob NOT NULL,
  user_newpassword tinyblob NOT NULL,
  user_email tinytext NOT NULL,
  user_options blob NOT NULL,
  user_watch mediumblob NOT NULL,
  user_newtalk tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '1',
  UNIQUE KEY user_id (user_id),
  KEY user_name (user_name(10))
) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;

19) Does user_rights correspond to ar_flags?

20) What is "newpassword" for?

21) Are all the "options" really necessary?

22) It might be the SQL way to make a "watchlist" table, where each row
contains a user id, and an article id.  Or maybe this would be useless
in a database that doesn't have subqueries.

23) What is the user_newtalk field?

Cheers!

Jonathan

--
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from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
On Fri, 2002-11-15 at 23:14, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> If someone can answer some of the following questions, that would be
> great.  I'm going to paste each SQL table definition, then ask questions
> about it.  I'll number each question so I can keep track of which ones
> still aren't answered at the end of the week. :-)
>
> I'm sure Ed Poor will have more insightful and relevant questions than
> the ones I'm posting below; Brion and you other developers, please don't
> be offended at the tone of the questions.  I seek knowledge only.

Disclaimer: I'm not sure how all of this works myself. I came here to
work on localization, all this database stuff is an ugly side trip for
me.

See also 'schema.doc' in the 'docs' subdirectory in the source tarball,
which lists the usage of some stuff.

> CREATE TABLE archive (
>   ar_namespace tinyint(2) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   ar_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   ar_text mediumtext NOT NULL,
>   ar_comment tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   ar_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   ar_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   ar_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   ar_minor_edit tinyint(1) NOT NULL default '0',
>   ar_flags tinyblob NOT NULL
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 1) What is the "archive" table for? Is that where articles are stored?

'archive' is where deleted articles are stored. They can be viewed or
undeleted by a sysop via Special:Undelete or through manual queries.

> 2) Why is there a separate ar_user_text property?  Is it because MySQL
> doesn't support subqueries?

Probably.

> 3) What is ar_flags used for?  And why is it a tinyblob?

I believe the flags field is not used for any purpose.

> 4) Could we save a lot of disk space by replacing ar_title with
> article_id, and having all the article titles and their corresponding
> ids in a separate table?

Not significantly for that table. Might be a useful trick elsewhere,
though.

> CREATE TABLE brokenlinks (
>   bl_from int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   bl_to varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   KEY bl_from (bl_from),
>   KEY bl_to (bl_to(10))
> ) TYPE=MyISAM;
>
> 5) Why is a broken link table necessary?  Couldn't it be sufficient to
> do a query to find out which links are broken?  Or is this another "we
> have no subqueries" issue?

I believe the primary use of the brokenlinks table is for generating the
'most wanted' list.

> 6) I notice bl_from is an integer, while bl_to is a string; why the
> difference?  I thought articles didn't have identifying id numbers; if
> so, what is bl_from then?

All articles have ID numbers; that's cur_id in the cur table. bl_from
and l_to reference cur_id numbers. Articles that don't exist don't have
cur_id numbers of course, so cannot be referenced by id, but only by
title.

> CREATE TABLE cur (
>   cur_id int(8) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
>   cur_namespace tinyint(2) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   cur_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   cur_text mediumtext NOT NULL,
>   cur_comment tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   cur_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   cur_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   cur_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   cur_restrictions tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   cur_counter bigint(20) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   cur_ind_title varchar(255) NOT NULL default '',
>   cur_ind_text mediumtext NOT NULL,
>   cur_is_redirect tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   cur_minor_edit tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   cur_is_new tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   UNIQUE KEY cur_id (cur_id),
>   KEY cur_namespace (cur_namespace),
>   KEY cur_title (cur_title(20)),
>   KEY cur_timestamp (cur_timestamp),
>   FULLTEXT KEY cur_ind_title (cur_ind_title),
>   FULLTEXT KEY cur_ind_text (cur_ind_text)
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 7) What is the table cur for?  I find myself understanding nothing about
> it; I even looked at the 3 default entries that are inserted, and they
> didn't clue me in.

The cur table contains the current revision of every article in the
database. It's kind of important. ;)

The default entries aren't very informative because an empty database
is, well, pretty empty!

> CREATE TABLE image (
>   img_name varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   img_size int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   img_description tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   img_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   img_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   img_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   KEY img_name (img_name(10)),
>   KEY img_size (img_size),
>   KEY img_timestamp (img_timestamp)
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 8) Is img_user_text present for the "MySQL has no subquery
> functionality" reason?

Prolly.

> 9) What format are timestamps in?

Text strings formatted like so: 'YYYYMMDDHHMMSS'. Note that we will have
a year 10000 problem unless we upgrade the software first! ;)

In phase II they were TIMESTAMP fields, which I believe came out
formatted that way by default. This was annoying as TIMESTAMPs are
updated automatically every time you touch the row unless you explicitly
set them to themselves. (That's why you'll occasionally see some legacy
cruft in update queries that set cur_timestamp=cur_timestamp or
whatnot.)

There's probably a better way to do that.

> 10) Is there special PHP code that ensures an image with the same name,
> but differing descriptions or img_user properties are present in the
> table?  Does MySQL not have the "UNIQUE" keyword which could eliminate
> all need for that code, or is it wanted to have a record of all changes
> to the description of an image?  If so, I would recommend a slightly
> different solution, similar to that for the articles table.

The current solution is more or less like that for the articles tables.
There's 'image' ~= 'cur' and 'oldimage' ~= 'old'. Uploading a file with
the same name as an existing one is considered creating a new revision
of the same file; the old one is pushed back into the old list, and the
new one put in the current place.

> CREATE TABLE imagelinks (
>   il_from varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   il_to varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   KEY il_from (il_from(10)),
>   KEY il_to (il_to(10))
> ) TYPE=MyISAM;
>
> 11) Surely we could save space by using integer article ids?

The main use of this table is generating lists of pages which link to a
given image. No subqueries again...

> CREATE TABLE ipblocks (
>   ipb_address varchar(40) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   ipb_user int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   ipb_by int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   ipb_reason tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   ipb_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   KEY ipb_address (ipb_address),
>   KEY ipb_user (ipb_user)
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 12) No questions, but why is the KEY keyword used? Is this a MySQL
> trigger for making indexes?  Also, theres a bunch of things that could
> use the UNIQUE keyword to save php code.

Sounds like.

> CREATE TABLE links (
>   l_from varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   l_to int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   KEY l_from (l_from(10)),
>   KEY l_to (l_to)
> ) TYPE=MyISAM;
>
> 13) Similar to the question about the orphanedlinks table, why is l_from
> a string, while l_to is an integer?

The primary use of the links table is to generate the 'Whatlinkshere'
listing. No subqueries, and we need the titles to list the links, not
the id numbers.

> CREATE TABLE old (
>   old_id int(8) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
>   old_namespace tinyint(2) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   old_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   old_text mediumtext NOT NULL,
>   old_comment tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   old_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   old_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   old_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   old_minor_edit tinyint(1) NOT NULL default '0',
>   old_flags tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   UNIQUE KEY old_id (old_id),
>   KEY old_title (old_title(20)),
>   KEY old_timestamp (old_timestamp)
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 14) What is table "old" used for? Deleted articles?  Versions of
> articles that are no longer "the most current"?

Versions of articles that are no longer 'the most current', yes. It
would be more efficient probably to dump the title and namespace fields
and simply reference the cur_id.

> CREATE TABLE oldimage (
>   oi_name varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   oi_archive_name varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   oi_size int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   oi_description tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   oi_user int(5) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   oi_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   oi_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   KEY oi_name (oi_name(10))
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 15) So, history IS stored for each image?  Then I recommend the scheme
> of having a separate table for unique image names, and their
> corresponding "image id"

...

> CREATE TABLE random (
>   ra_current tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   ra_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default ''
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 16) What is this "random" table for?

Stores ~1000 randomly selected page names. When someone clicks 'Random
page', one of those is selected rather than one of the whole bunch;
every once in a while the list is regenerated. Allegedly this improves
performance.

> CREATE TABLE recentchanges (
>   rc_timestamp varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   rc_cur_time varchar(14) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   rc_user int(10) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   rc_user_text varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   rc_namespace tinyint(3) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   rc_title varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   rc_comment varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   rc_minor tinyint(3) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   rc_new tinyint(3) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   rc_cur_id int(10) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   rc_this_oldid int(10) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   rc_last_oldid int(10) unsigned NOT NULL default '0'
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 17) Could the recent changes table be replaced with an appropriately
> defined "view"?  Or are views something MySQL doesn't do very well?

Yes, probably. It's all very hackish, and if it's not helping much, a
cleaner and well-performaning replacement is welcome.

> CREATE TABLE site_stats (
>   ss_row_id int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
>   ss_total_views bigint(20) unsigned default '0',
>   ss_total_edits bigint(20) unsigned default '0',
>   ss_good_articles bigint(20) unsigned default '0',
>   UNIQUE KEY ss_row_id (ss_row_id)
> ) TYPE=MyISAM;
>
> 18) What is ss_row_id and ss_good_articles?  How does this table work?
> Does it contain stats for each article?  Shouldn't that go in the table
> that already contains the info for an article?  That would lessen the
> number of SQL updates, collapsing two UPDATE statements into one.

This contains a single row for the whole database. The good articles
count is generated by faulty math anyway, though.

> CREATE TABLE user (
>   user_id int(5) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
>   user_name varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
>   user_rights tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   user_password tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   user_newpassword tinyblob NOT NULL,
>   user_email tinytext NOT NULL,
>   user_options blob NOT NULL,
>   user_watch mediumblob NOT NULL,
>   user_newtalk tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '1',
>   UNIQUE KEY user_id (user_id),
>   KEY user_name (user_name(10))
> ) TYPE=MyISAM PACK_KEYS=1;
>
> 19) Does user_rights correspond to ar_flags?

No. user_rights is a comma-separated list of priveledges. Currently the
only ones defined are 'sysop' and 'developer', so possible values are:
  '' (normal users)
  'sysop' ("sysops" or "administrators")
  'sysop,developer' ("developers")

> 20) What is "newpassword" for?

If you click 'e-mail me a new password', a new password is generated and
stored in this field. Then, you can log in either with this new
temporary password (in which case it becomes your regular password until
you manually change it) or with your current password. This prevents you
from having your account locked out if you accidentally (or someone else
maliciously) clicks the button with your user name given, but you don't
intend to use (or can't get it) it.

> 21) Are all the "options" really necessary?

Yes?

> 22) It might be the SQL way to make a "watchlist" table, where each row
> contains a user id, and an article id.  Or maybe this would be useless
> in a database that doesn't have subqueries.

Could do.

> 23) What is the user_newtalk field?

Set to 1 if your user talk page is edited, sets that annoying asterisk
in the corner of your screen that doesn't get cleared till you look at
the darn page.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)