body:
Isn't it also better if we wait for the required 5 users? Right now it
seems there are only two.

Mark

On 10/03/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> It is that simply a matter of picking and choosing. This project was
> "voted" into being, It proved to be fractious for good reason; there
> being more than one language behind the kok ISO-639-2 language code.
> There is already a fight over the script, I think it best when we have a
> proposal on how this is to be settled.
>
> Without such a proposal I am dead against it moving to a full WMF language.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
>
> Mark Williamson schreef:
> > GOM, if not KNN. As Frederick is Goan and that is (afaik) the major
> > variety, I can but assume that is the one they will use.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 09/03/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Frederick Noronha schreef:
> >>
> >>> Yeah, I'm trying... but it has not been very easy convincing others
> >>> about what seems to be a "counter-intuitive" idea ... ("anyone being
> >>> able to edit me writing... whaaat?")
> >>>
> >>> We're also having a script war going on here amidst Kok. But I think
> >>> it will happen one day, hopefully sooner rather than later. FN
> >>>
> >>> On 10/03/07, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Well, you could certainly take the lead by writing good articles for
> >>>> http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok/ . It is currently empty
> >>>> because of lack of participation.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> Hoi,
> >> I have had a look at Konkani, the code currently in use on the Incubator
> >> will not necessarily lead to new project. Konkani is in ISO-639-3 no
> >> longer considered to be a single language. There are currently seven
> >> languages that all make up Konkani; they are
> >>
> >>     Katkari  [kfu
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kfu>] (India
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
> >>
> >>     Konkani  [knn
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=knn>] (India
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
> >>
> >>     Konkani, Goanese  [gom
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gom>] (India
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
> >>
> >>     Kukna  [kex <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kex>]
> >>     (India <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
> >>
> >>     Phudagi  [phd
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=phd>] (India
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
> >>
> >>     Samvedi  [smv
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=smv>] (India
> >>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
> >>
> >>     Varli  [vav <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=vav>]
> >>     (India <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
> >>
> >> This means that you can forget about a script war; the paricipant of
> >> these script wars will probably belong to one of these seven. The first
> >> battle you will have to fight is the clarification of what it is that
> >> you want.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>     GerardM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.


list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Florence Devouard

subject: [Foundation-l] Censorship: Speedy deletion of porn articles

body:
Mark and Jeff

I had requests to moderate you on that list again.
That is a warning sign.
Please consider a break

thank you :-)

anthere


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: David Gerard

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales Survives Monkey
	Attack!!

body:
On 10/03/07, Dan Collins <en.wp.st47 at gmail.com> wrote:

> rather, unsubscribe them, I think.

This is actually for real ... it's the documentary makers following
Jimbo around Asia.

- d.


list: wikien-l

from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Proposal for simplified credentials model

body:
On 3/10/07, stvrtg <stvrtg at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but will they still fib about their *names*? ;-)

I can provide multiple indpendent witnesses showing I use the name
"geni" in meatspace.

--
geni


body:
On 10/03/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/10/07, stvrtg <stvrtg at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Yes, but will they still fib about their *names*? ;-)

> I can provide multiple indpendent witnesses showing I use the name
> "geni" in meatspace.

"Hi, who are you?"
"Geni."

See!

- d.


from_name: The Wikipedia Documentary

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales Survives Monkey Attack!!

body:
As our crew ventures deeper into India with Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales and his ongoing to quest to spread information about free digital knowledge, they encounter an ancient (but rapidly modernizing) culture in a beautiful setting-- only to come face to face with one of the oldest forms of social collaborative networking: a coordinated monkey attack!

Check out the latest production podcast from Varanasi, India here: www.wikidocumentary.org

Thanks!
-WikiDoc

_____________________________
Change address / Leave mailing list: http://ymlp.com/u.php?Ferrisito+wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
Hosting by  YourMailingListProvider


from_name: Jacky PB

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Conspicuous only in its absence (was Moldavian)

body:
--- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think this is a big misunderstanding on your part.
> The existance of
> a Wikipedia in a linguistic entity does not indicate
> any level of
> difference from other Wikipedias' languages. It does
> not claim that it
> is a "language" or a "dialect".

I think there's no misunderstanding here.
You do have Wikipedia editors identifying their
linguistic identity as Bosniac, Croatian, Sebian, or
Serbo-Croatian. You don't have Wikipedia editors
identifying their linguistic identity as Moldovan.
That makes all the difference.

:en:Dpotop

> We have Wikipedias in Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian,
> and Serbo-Croatian.
> It's a bit of a paradox, if we have Wikipedias in
> the first 3, we
> shouldn't have one in the fourth logically.
>
> But this problem is non-existant from a linguistic
> standpoint
> precisely for the reason I stated above. All four
> are linguistic
> entities, despite the fact that Serbo-Croatian is an
> "umbrella" entity
> that allows for the use of the other three. As long
> as there is a
> reason to have these Wikis separate (ie, unless BCS
> people can agree
> to a merger), they will be separate.
>
> Now, I think everybody here knows by now that you
> would be willing to
> merge mo and ro Wikipedias with a script conversion
> system on
> ro.wikipedia. That is fine. Nobody here objects to
> such a system. What
> we do object to is that at this very moment, the
> proposal has very
> little support from the Romanian Wikipedian
> community. You have been
> told many times that you are welcome to try to test
> the waters,
> organize a poll at ro.wp, try to convince people of
> the utility and
> validity of such a system, but you keep complaining
> to this list about
> how it's not your responsibility and about how WE
> need to do
> something.
>
> How can you have not figured out by now that with
> hundreds of e-mails
> repeating the exact same thing in so many words, you
> are not only
> failing to change anything, you are actually making
> people more and
> more firmly against the position you represent?
>
> Mark
>
> On 09/03/07, Liviu Andronic <landronimirc at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On 3/5/07, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Verbosity is a prerequisite for my arguments
> to be understood. Otherwise
> > > > these are simply skipped.
> > > >
> > > .... Really ? ...
> >
> > At times, this is the feeling that I have. At any
> rate, verbosity is
> > necessary to make my arguments clear.
> >
> >
> >  > 2. According to the recently adopted Language
> proposal
> > > > policy<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:LPP>-
> that I suppose can be
> > > > applied to existing wikipedias to determine
> their
> > > > "validity" - there are three "essential"
> requisites that can be
> > > verified: a
> > > > valid ISO-639 code, language singularity and a
> viable community and
> > > > audience.
> > > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > You are plain wrong. You are also wrong in
> applying the policy in this
> > > way. The policy determines how new languages are
> to be accepted. The
> > > Moldovan Wikipedia already exists and it does
> have a valid ISO 639 code.
> > > Thanks,
> > >     GerardM
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have no intent to renew this
> > debate. This is simply to say that my view over
> > the entire issue has not radically changed. For
> the following (same)
> > reasons:
> >
> > From what I know, the tiny wikipedias (like the
> Moldovan one) were created ?
> > partir de a "list" with no formal voting and
> without following any specific
> > guidelines or policy. On this basis, I believe
> that the newly adopted policy
> > could be used  for determining the "correctness"
> of wikipedias that  were
> > created in "obscure" ways. In any case, it  is not
> up to me to decide such a
> > usage.
> >
> > As to the valid ISO 639 code.. It is valid indeed
> in the eyes of the ISO,
> > but also according to the official POV of the
> Party of Communists in RM (I
> > suspect), of the Transnistrian authorities and
> might have been in the eyes
> > of the Soviet Authorities. [On a side note: I do
> not understand how you
> > expect my arguments to be completely apolitical
> over an issue that is pure
> > politics: considering Moldovan as a linguistic
> entity.]
> >
> > However, scholarly research - Western included -
> disputes this. A lot
> > of linguists
> > - if not most - do (with the notable exception of
> Vasile Stati; notable,
> > because he is the one). The regulating body of the
> "Moldovan language" -
> > with regard to the Constitution - disputes this.
> Less important in the eyes
> > of the WMF, natives dispute this (though still
> waiting for someone from
> > Transnistria here). Please follow the links  in
> my  previous messages if
> > you are not persuaded by this paragraph.
> >
> > And, probably most important  for the Board, the
> mo.wiki domain does  not
> > host content in a linguistic entity different from
> the Romanian one. It
> > simply  hosts transliterated Romanian content. I
> honestly believe that  it
> > is wrong for  the Foundation to blindly follow the
> ISO specifications over
> > this issue. It is also wrong for the Board to
> adopt - from the NPOV
> > perspective, which should be respected even if
> certain flexibility is
> > endorsed - a political POV over a
> linguistic/historical fact: at a given
> > period, in a given region, Romanian was written
> with a different script.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Liviu
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >
>
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
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list: commons-l

from_name: Brianna Laugher

subject: [Commons-l] Join us now and free the video

body:
On 10/03/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> It needs both. I've noted on [[Commons talk:Licensing]] that CC's
> actions are *actively damaging* to Wikimedia's interests right now -
> and we need to make sure this doesn't happen again. Jimbo is on the
> board of CC, which may help.

You'd really think so, but I really haven't noticed that it has at
all, yet. Is he just making up the numbers there? How can we spur him
into action? Aside from pleading for his attention, which I don't much
fancy. :)

cheers
Brianna
user:pfctdayelise


from_name: Frederick Noronha

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia to seek proof of credentials (Sify.com,
	India)

body:
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14405629

Wikipedia to seek proof of credentials

Following revelations that a high-ranking member of Wikipedia's
bureaucracy used his cloak of anonymity to lie about being a professor
of religion, the free Internet encyclopedia plans to ask contributors
who claim such credentials to identify themselves.

Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales said in interviews by phone and instant
message Wednesday from Japan that contributors still would be able to
remain anonymous. But he said they should only be allowed to cite some
professional expertise in a subject if those credentials have been
verified.

"We always prefer to give a positive incentive rather than absolute
prohibition, so that people can contribute without a lot of hassle,"
Wales wrote.

Wales suggested such a plan two years ago, but the idea suddenly
gained currency after the recent discovery that a prolific Wikipedia
contributor who wrote under the pen name "Essjay" and claimed to be a
professor of theology turned out to be a 24-year-old college dropout,
Ryan Jordan.

Jordan's fraud came to light last week when The New Yorker published
an editor's note stating that a 2006 Wikipedia profile in the magazine
had erroneously described Essjay's purported academic resume. The New
Yorker said a Wikipedia higher-up had vouched for Essjay to the author
of the piece, Stacy Schiff, but that neither knew Essjay's real
identity.

In addition to contributing thousands of articles to the sprawling Web
encyclopedia, Jordan had recently been promoted to arbitrator, a
position for trusted members of the community. Arbitrators can
overrule an edit made by another volunteer or block people who abuse
the site.

Jordan also was hired in January by Wikia Inc., a for-profit venture
run by Wales. He has since been dismissed.

Jordan has not returned an e-mail seeking comment from The Associated
Press. But in a note on his Wikipedia "user page" before it was
officially "retired," he apologized for any harm he caused Wikipedia.

"It was, quite honestly, my impression that it was well known that I
was not who I claimed to be, and that in the absence of any
confirmation, no respectible (sic) publication would print it," he
wrote.

Wikipedia is full of anonymous contributors like Essjay, whose user
page also once proclaimed: "My Wikipedia motto is `Lux et Veritas'
(Light and Truth) and I believe more individuals should contribute
with an intention to bring light to the community and truth to the
encyclopedia."

The anonymity of the site is a frequent cause of mischief - from
juvenile vandalism of entries to the infamous case involving
journalist John Seigenthaler Sr., who was incorrectly described as a
suspect in the Kennedy assassinations. And that has raised concerns
about the credibility of the site.

But anonymity is also considered one of the main forces behind
Wikipedia's astonishing growth, to nearly 1.7 million articles in
English and millions more in dozens of other languages. Wales has said
he is an "anti-credentialist" - because anonymity puts a reader's
attention on the substance of what people have written rather than who
they are.

Wales said Wednesday that belief is unchanged. But, he said, if people
want to claim expertise on Wikipedia, they ought to be prompted to
prove it. If they don't want to give their real names, they shouldn't
be allowed to tout credentials. Had that policy been in place, Wales
said, Jordan probably would not have gotten away with claiming a Ph.D.
in religion.

"It's always inappropriate to try to win an argument by flashing your
credentials," Wales said, "and even more so if those credentials are
inaccurate."

--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Reaching the next billion (Jimmy Wales,
	in Financial Express, India)

body:
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=156753

Reaching the next billion
Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales seems focused on taking his online 'free
to edit encyclopedia' to everyone, as the world talks about his plans
to take on Google

S SHYAMALA
Posted online: Monday, March 05, 2007 at 2301 hours IST

He rewrote the rules of encyclopedia business. And online search
engines seem to be the next on target. But Wikipedia founder Jimmy
Wales seems occupied with taking his 'free to edit' encyclopedia to
everyone in the world. He is headed to Japan after mingling with
Indian bloggers and wiki professionals at an unconference (where crowd
participates in the discussion instead of just the speaker talking,
just like his Wikipedia). "We have to think of how to take it to every
corner of the world," he says.

India and Indian languages, for instance, are already getting a bigger
foothold on wikipedia, which ranks among the ten most visited sites
globally. You could find detailed information in a small, relatively
unknown town of India, thanks to the software created by IT
professional, Ganesh Krishnamurthy for about 5,000 Indian towns and
cities. "This wikibot is one of the examples of users making efficient
use of the basic tool and platform to create their own wikis, says
Jimmy.

And expanding Wikipedia to the next billion people is on top of his
mind, even as he continues to refuse advertisements. "Every time we
turn down an advertisement offer, we remind ourselves that this money
could have gone into taking the access to developing countries. This
is one of the things I challenge people sitting in a wealthy country
with a broadband connection, he recently confirmed in a podcast from
Chennai.

"We have to be clear that we are turning ads down for a good reason.
And that's a stand for now. Project of a free wikipedia is a long-term
project and that 's a decision we take every year; every month," he
clarifies. Many in the industry believe that textlinks in Wikipedia
could fetch a fortune. His not-for-profit online encyclopedia gets
seven billion page views each month in more than five million multiple
language entries.

Here to attend India's first Wikicamp unconference, he also
kick-started an open book on the subject. "The most special feature is
that this book will be authored collaboratively by people worldwide.
These are people who have helped organise or attended unconferences
around the world. It will be written openly on a wiki," informs
Wikicamp organiser, Kiruba Shankar. Within days of the launch, 59
people from eight different cities have joined in.

Doesn't uncontrolled access to articles lead to vandalism and
self-promotion? Jimmy agrees but says such acts are duly corrected by
other users. Plagiarised copies can be easily found out because the
style of writing, which is unlike the encyclopedia style, betrays the
article, he adds.

Moreover, users take pride in publishing their own work rather than
copying material, Jimmy says.

Apart from the encyclopedia, Jimmy has also spearheaded a for-profit
organisation called Wikia, which is a repository of journals,
magazines, opinions and a library. The team is also working on
creating an open-source search engine to be called Wikiasearch, Jimmy
says.

Though there are a few proprietary players in the search space, they
lack innovations in the search methodologies, he says.

With open source, users will be able to create their own search
engines from the basic tool, he adds. Wikipedia communities can also
be involved to flag the best articles that will be given top priority
while returning search results, he says.

--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jeremy Cushman

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Checkered background (from [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN:
	[20065] trunk/phase3)

body:
On 3/10/07, Erik Moeller <erik at wikimedia.org> wrote:
> This change seems to be targeted at editors, rather than users of the
> wiki. For a user, the behavior of seeing a checkered background on a
> full size view serves no purpose and, indeed, obscures the content of
> the image. What is the justification for putting this in the default
> skin?

I agree with Erik.  I've added the checkered background to my personal
monobook, because it's great for working on images images, but the
majority of users not into image editing and such do not want to see
the checkered background.
--Mets501


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Look Who's Using Wikipedia ... gerardm

body:
Let's have a race war then :-) BTW, despite my name (or because of
it), I'm Indian/South Asian.

Now, to shift to a more serious subject. I think the good side of the
Wikipedia is that it is relatively more open to all compared to any
other form of knowledge production and agglomeration that we have
known till this point in history. Tell me if I'm wrong.

What however needs to be taken into account, following up on Walter
van Kalken, is that people in the global South/Third
World/"developing" countries simply aren't contributing as much. So
that diversity isn't getting reflected here. This happens because of
various reasons. Lack of access, stronger tradition in oral cultures
rather than written ones, lack of peer groups to encourage this,
difficulties in keying-in non-Romanised texts (specially Asian
languages) via computers.. whatever.

It would help if Wikipedia took on efforts to spur such contributions.
Once they start, I have no doubt that the trickle will turn into a
mighty river. Till that time, hold on to your faith.-- FN in
Goa/India.

On 07/03/07, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> The problem is with the current rules on en.wikipedia which are totally
> geared towards western style relevance and references ,and the bias
> amongst editors,  it is difficult to get the same debt for Africa, Asia
> and South America. Something has got to give. And the rules will never
> be changed because of the western pov of most of our editors. So we will
> have to accept that we will be weak in these areas forever. Or somehow
> with a miracle an exception clause has to be made for topics regarding
> this area.

--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/


body:
My constructive position (made clear a long time ago
in a discussion here, and in other discussions on
various Wikipedia fora) is the following:
* Given that no Cyrillic script Moldovan editor exists
on Wikipedia, it is only important *for the time
being* that reading capability is provided for
Cyrillic readers.
* This reading capability can already be provided
using the transliteration script of
:en:User:Bogdangiusca. I have tried it, and it
provides decent results. This script should be the
only content of a mo-cyr.wiki, transliterating pages
of ro.wiki. For the script, please contact its author.
* When/if Cyrillic-script Moldovan editors ask for
their wikipedia, then (and only then) the mo-cyr.wiki
should be given to them.
* Why mo-cyr? Because there are 2 Moldovan languages
at the time being:
   - the guys that declared themselves Moldovan in
   the Moldovan census are a very large majority,
   and their Latin-scripted version of Moldovan is
   regulated by the Moldovan Academy of Sciences.
   - the guys that (are forced to) use the Cyrillic
   script in Transnistria probably use the last
   language standard of the Soviet times (I know
   of no existent regulating body).
You see that you just can't let a minority take
exclusive use of the ISO code mo/mol. OTOH, the
Latin-scripted language is identical with Romanian,
as stated by its regulatory body.

As you see, this *is* constructive, and the elements
of the solution (and the agreement of Romanians) are
here for a very long time now.

Dpotop1

--- GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hoi,
> In what the WMF aims to do it reserves no place on
> what wikipedia editors do
> and do not do. It says that we aim to provide
> information to people. For the
> language committee it is nor necessarily relevant
> what language people
> identify with as it has brought us an un-ending
> amount of people who do not
> want to communicate with others and create new
> "languages" for political
> reasons.
>
> If you are so happy denying the use of Moldovan, be
> constructive and promote
> the use of the ro.wikipedia with the Cyrillic
> script. If all you can do is
> deny this option as well as deny the existence of a
> mo.wikipedia, please
> refrain from posting unless you have something
> positive to say.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> On 3/10/07, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I think this is a big misunderstanding on your
> part.
> > > The existance of
> > > a Wikipedia in a linguistic entity does not
> indicate
> > > any level of
> > > difference from other Wikipedias' languages. It
> does
> > > not claim that it
> > > is a "language" or a "dialect".
> >
> > I think there's no misunderstanding here.
> > You do have Wikipedia editors identifying their
> > linguistic identity as Bosniac, Croatian, Sebian,
> or
> > Serbo-Croatian. You don't have Wikipedia editors
> > identifying their linguistic identity as Moldovan.
> > That makes all the difference.
> >
> > :en:Dpotop
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > We have Wikipedias in Bosnian, Croatian,
> Serbian,
> > > and Serbo-Croatian.
> > > It's a bit of a paradox, if we have Wikipedias
> in
> > > the first 3, we
> > > shouldn't have one in the fourth logically.
> > >
> > > But this problem is non-existant from a
> linguistic
> > > standpoint
> > > precisely for the reason I stated above. All
> four
> > > are linguistic
> > > entities, despite the fact that Serbo-Croatian
> is an
> > > "umbrella" entity
> > > that allows for the use of the other three. As
> long
> > > as there is a
> > > reason to have these Wikis separate (ie, unless
> BCS
> > > people can agree
> > > to a merger), they will be separate.
> > >
> > > Now, I think everybody here knows by now that
> you
> > > would be willing to
> > > merge mo and ro Wikipedias with a script
> conversion
> > > system on
> > > ro.wikipedia. That is fine. Nobody here objects
> to
> > > such a system. What
> > > we do object to is that at this very moment, the
> > > proposal has very
> > > little support from the Romanian Wikipedian
> > > community. You have been
> > > told many times that you are welcome to try to
> test
> > > the waters,
> > > organize a poll at ro.wp, try to convince people
> of
> > > the utility and
> > > validity of such a system, but you keep
> complaining
> > > to this list about
> > > how it's not your responsibility and about how
> WE
> > > need to do
> > > something.
> > >
> > > How can you have not figured out by now that
> with
> > > hundreds of e-mails
> > > repeating the exact same thing in so many words,
> you
> > > are not only
> > > failing to change anything, you are actually
> making
> > > people more and
> > > more firmly against the position you represent?
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 09/03/07, Liviu Andronic
> <landronimirc at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On 3/5/07, Gerard Meijssen
> > > <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Verbosity is a prerequisite for my
> arguments
> > > to be understood. Otherwise
> > > > > > these are simply skipped.
> > > > > >
> > > > > .... Really ? ...
> > > >
> > > > At times, this is the feeling that I have. At
> any
> > > rate, verbosity is
> > > > necessary to make my arguments clear.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  > 2. According to the recently adopted
> Language
> > > proposal
> > > > > >
> policy<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:LPP>-
> > > that I suppose can be
> > > > > > applied to existing wikipedias to
> determine
> > > their
> > > > > > "validity" - there are three "essential"
> > > requisites that can be
> > > > > verified: a
> > > > > > valid ISO-639 code, language singularity
> and a
> > > viable community and
> > > > > > audience.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > You are plain wrong. You are also wrong in
> > > applying the policy in this
> > > > > way. The policy determines how new languages
> are
> > > to be accepted. The
> > > > > Moldovan Wikipedia already exists and it
> does
> > > have a valid ISO 639 code.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >     GerardM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > I have no intent to renew this
> > > > debate. This is simply to say that my view
> over
> > > > the entire issue has not radically changed.
> For
> > > the following (same)
> > > > reasons:
> > > >
> > > > From what I know, the tiny wikipedias (like
> the
> > > Moldovan one) were created ???
> > > > partir de a "list" with no formal voting and
> > > without following any specific
> > > > guidelines or policy. On this basis, I believe
> > > that the newly adopted policy
> > > > could be used  for determining the
> "correctness"
> > > of wikipedias that  were
> > > > created in "obscure" ways. In any case, it  is
> not
> > > up to me to decide such a
> > > > usage.
> > > >
> > > > As to the valid ISO 639 code.. It is valid
> indeed
> > > in the eyes of the ISO,
> > > > but also according to the official POV of the
> > > Party of Communists in RM (I
> > > > suspect), of the Transnistrian authorities and
> > > might have been in the eyes
>
=== message truncated ===

____________________________________________________________________________________
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with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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body:
Yeah, I'm trying... but it has not been very easy convincing others
about what seems to be a "counter-intuitive" idea ... ("anyone being
able to edit me writing... whaaat?")

We're also having a script war going on here amidst Kok. But I think
it will happen one day, hopefully sooner rather than later. FN

On 10/03/07, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, you could certainly take the lead by writing good articles for
> http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok/ . It is currently empty
> because of lack of participation.
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Milos Rancic

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Some methods for generation of dictionaries

body:
I am forwarding to you the first (not complete) version of the page
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Millosh/Dictionaries .

At the end of this month I'll have some software for such generation
of dictionaries. So, it would be good to hear what do you think about
that and is there someone interested to join this project. Maybe
Gerard may think how to implement such thing in the OmegaWiki, too :)

The page is not completed (stages 2 and 3 are not described), but I
think that you may follow my idea anyway. I'll complete the page in
the next few weeks and I'll inform you about that.

* * *

In this moment I am working on one Serbian dictionary of synonyms.
During that work I got some ideas about the work on Wiktionaries:

Let's say what one word with synonyms/translations is enough for one
word in Wiktionary. (Maybe I should read some Wiktionary
documentation, but I suppose that this is the minimum.)

In short, this may be done for a dozens of languages on a dozens of
Wiktionaries.

==Stage 1, one language dictionary==
*Take some dictionary between English (or whatever language) and your
language. Of course, take it in machine readable format (not
encrypted).
*Take the first word in (let's say) English.
*Take the first translation in your language. Connect this word in
your language with other translations of the word in English.
*Find which words in English have the same translation. Connect the
word with other translations in those words.
*You will get the list of connected words. There will be a lot of
mass, but you will be able to make some simple methods for cleaning
the most of the mass. The rest of the mass will be cleaned by humans
because this is a wiki :)
*Of course, you may do that with a lot of different dictionaries...

Imagine that we analyzed two words from language A in the dictionary
"language B -> language A" and that we got the next results (of
course, this is simplified table):

A58 - B65 - A58, A43, A21, A63
    - B69 - A58, A28, A21, A38
    - B71 - A58, A43, A21, A88
    - B89 - A58, A43, A21, A63

A21 - B31 - A21, A43, A76, A20
    - B44 - A21, A43, A39, A22
    - B65 - A58, A43, A21, A63
    - B69 - A58, A28, A21, A38
    - B71 - A58, A43, A21, A88
    - B89 - A58, A43, A21, A63

We may say that if one word from the language A has the same meaning
as the word A58 in the language B, this connection will get one point.
So, we will have the next situation according to the words A58 and
A21:

A58(A21) = 4
A58(A43) = 3
A58(A63) = 2
A58(A28) = 1
A58(A38) = 1
A58(A88) = 1

A21(A43) = 5
A21(A58) = 4
A21(A63) = 2
A21(A28) = 1
A21(A38) = 1
A21(A88) = 1
A21(A76) = 1
A21(A39) = 1
A21(A20) = 1
A21(A22) = 1

For the beginning, this may mean:
*The closest synonyms to the word A58 is the word A21.
*The closest synonyms to the word A21 is the word A43.
*Words A21, A58, A43 and A63 are synonyms (which we may call "G(As)1").
*It seems that words A28, A38, A88, A76, A39, A20 and A22 are not
related with the group G(As)1. However, we will put the connections in
the memory, but we will not write it into the dictionary. Imagine that
the word ''blood'' literary means in some language "red bird". Of
course, there are some ''red birds'' in the area where that language
is spoken. So, in this sense, blood will be connected with the word
"bird" and, almost for sure, with some specie of birds. However, this
will be the only connection to the birds. Other connections will be
inside of the descriptions for erythrocyte, lymphocyte, heart and so
on. Of course, mistakes are possible, but we may analyze results :)
*This may be very useful for smaller languages which have some two
language dictionaries (where the language B is English). We may be
able to generate one language Wiktionaries for all of such languages.

==Stage 2, two languages dictionary==
(To be continued.)

==Stage 3, cross language dictionaries==
(To be continued.)


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
This change seems to be targeted at editors, rather than users of the
wiki. For a user, the behavior of seeing a checkered background on a
full size view serves no purpose and, indeed, obscures the content of
the image. What is the justification for putting this in the default
skin?

On 2/26/07, leon at svn.wikimedia.org <leon at svn.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Revision: 20065
> Author:   leon
> Date:     2007-02-26 12:30:58 -0800 (Mon, 26 Feb 2007)
>
> Log Message:
> -----------
> Added a checkered background for images on thei description pages. Useful to see transparancy. It's only monobook for now; I'm not in the mood to do the other skins right now, will add them soon. Commiting to not forget the rest, I guess this is better than nothing ;-)

--
Peace & Love,
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

"An old, rigid civilization is reluctantly dying. Something new, open,
free and exciting is waking up." -- Ming the Mechanic


body:
Okay, please see... I'm working to improve that:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Sending out an appeal to friends too.... FN

On 10/03/07, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, you could certainly take the lead by writing good articles for
> http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok/ . It is currently empty
> because of lack of participation.
>
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/


list: textbook-l

subject:
[Textbook-l] NPOV and NOR as a local or a global policies on
	Wikibooks?

body:
I am wandering is it a local policy on en: (and some other Wikibooks)
or, like on Wikipedia, it is a global policy?

Yes, this is reasonable if we are talking only about manuals and
school books. However, I would like to see, for example, a book about
web servers comparison and I don't think that it is reasonable to stop
people writing such kinds of books. Also, I'd like to see essays and
even fiction books on Wikibooks, too. Of course, with defining what
kind of books would be able not to be NPOV and NOR (for example, I
don't think that a book about history may be POV) and with marking
such books as OR and POV.

If it is locally related to en:, projects in other languages may not
follow such rules. However, it would be better to have a global policy
with definitions what may and what may not be OR and/or POV.

I think that it is better to have strong Wikibookian communities with
a lot of fiction on Wikibooks then much smaller communities without
fiction on Wikibooks.

I know that it sounds hereticly :) However, I would like to see a good
skilled (amateur) astronomer who prefer to write SF on Wikibooks. He
may start to write a book about astronomy through some time.


from_name: Rory Stolzenberg

subject: [Foundation-l] BitTorrent Downloads of enwiki Images

body:
On 3/9/07, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have compiled the entire library of Wikipedia's images and have a
> bittorrent server ready to export this library on the internet.  I am
> awaiting
> word back from the Foundation for approval to enable the torrents.
>
> I have developed an automated C based server system which mirrors all
> Wikipedia images and compiles them into .bz2 archives as a library based
> on XML revision and dump.   When I get final approval, I will export
> these torrents to allow the images to be available from the internet.
> I will be in Arizona meeting with Dine (Navajo) folks next week on their
> projects, but will have email access.
>
> The torrents will be available at
>
> http://www.wikigadugi.org:2780
>
> At some point.  I will let folks know when and if the Foundation has
> approved this.
>
> :-)
>
> Jeff

The Foundation does not own the copyright to (almost) all of those pictures.
Why do you need approval from them? As long as they're distributed according
to the terms of their licenses (assuming you aren't using copyrighted images
that Wikipedia uses under a claim of fair use), you don't need any
permission.


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Frederick Noronha schreef:
> Yeah, I'm trying... but it has not been very easy convincing others
> about what seems to be a "counter-intuitive" idea ... ("anyone being
> able to edit me writing... whaaat?")
>
> We're also having a script war going on here amidst Kok. But I think
> it will happen one day, hopefully sooner rather than later. FN
>
> On 10/03/07, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, you could certainly take the lead by writing good articles for
>> http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok/ . It is currently empty
>> because of lack of participation.
>>
Hoi,
I have had a look at Konkani, the code currently in use on the Incubator
will not necessarily lead to new project. Konkani is in ISO-639-3 no
longer considered to be a single language. There are currently seven
languages that all make up Konkani; they are

    Katkari  [kfu
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kfu>] (India
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)

    Konkani  [knn
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=knn>] (India
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)

    Konkani, Goanese  [gom
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gom>] (India
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)

    Kukna  [kex <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kex>]
    (India <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)

    Phudagi  [phd
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=phd>] (India
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)

    Samvedi  [smv
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=smv>] (India
    <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)

    Varli  [vav <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=vav>]
    (India <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)

This means that you can forget about a script war; the paricipant of
these script wars will probably belong to one of these seven. The first
battle you will have to fight is the clarification of what it is that
you want.

Thanks,
    GerardM

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=92010


from_name: Rob Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Review

body:
On 3/10/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 18:22:45 -0700, "Rob Smith" <nobs03 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Yah but see you're all back to talking about persons and personalities
> >whereas what's needed is an independent Commission Review, kinda like the
> >911 Commission, not to point fingers and find fallguys, but to examine
> >institutional failings and weaknesses, and make dispassionate
> >recommendations on how to avoid or manage future crisis.
>
> Oh yes, the 911 commission worked really well, didn't it?  Shut the
> conspiracy theorists up completely.  It's particularly noticeable how
> many of them accepted the commission's findings, rather than
> denouncing it as yet another part of the conspiracy.  None at all,
> last time I counted.
>
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG

Yes.  That is particularly revealing of the difference between US & European
major media; we just shake our heads over here when we hear how the 911
Commission are a bunch of Bush stooges and part of the coverup.  Can only
wonder what other crazy ideas get transmitted through mainstream European
media.


body:
Hoi,
It is that simply a matter of picking and choosing. This project was
"voted" into being, It proved to be fractious for good reason; there
being more than one language behind the kok ISO-639-2 language code.
There is already a fight over the script, I think it best when we have a
proposal on how this is to be settled.

Without such a proposal I am dead against it moving to a full WMF language.

Thanks,
    GerardM

Mark Williamson schreef:
> GOM, if not KNN. As Frederick is Goan and that is (afaik) the major
> variety, I can but assume that is the one they will use.
>
> Mark
>
> On 09/03/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Frederick Noronha schreef:
>>
>>> Yeah, I'm trying... but it has not been very easy convincing others
>>> about what seems to be a "counter-intuitive" idea ... ("anyone being
>>> able to edit me writing... whaaat?")
>>>
>>> We're also having a script war going on here amidst Kok. But I think
>>> it will happen one day, hopefully sooner rather than later. FN
>>>
>>> On 10/03/07, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, you could certainly take the lead by writing good articles for
>>>> http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok/ . It is currently empty
>>>> because of lack of participation.
>>>>
>>>>
>> Hoi,
>> I have had a look at Konkani, the code currently in use on the Incubator
>> will not necessarily lead to new project. Konkani is in ISO-639-3 no
>> longer considered to be a single language. There are currently seven
>> languages that all make up Konkani; they are
>>
>>     Katkari  [kfu
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kfu>] (India
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>
>>     Konkani  [knn
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=knn>] (India
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>
>>     Konkani, Goanese  [gom
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gom>] (India
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>
>>     Kukna  [kex <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kex>]
>>     (India <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>
>>     Phudagi  [phd
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=phd>] (India
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>
>>     Samvedi  [smv
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=smv>] (India
>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>
>>     Varli  [vav <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=vav>]
>>     (India <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>
>> This means that you can forget about a script war; the paricipant of
>> these script wars will probably belong to one of these seven. The first
>> battle you will have to fight is the clarification of what it is that
>> you want.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>     GerardM


from_name: Anthony

subject: [WikiEN-l] Rename admins to janitors

body:
On 3/7/07, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/7/07, Erik Moeller <erik at wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > I'm sick and tired of people misunderstanding what an "administrator"
> > of Wikipedia is. It was a misnomer to begin with, and we've had
> > nothing but trouble with this name ever since. Users misunderstand it
> > (and ask admins to make editorial decisions). Media misunderstand it
> > (and either do not explain it, or connect it to power and influence).
> > And it's no wonder. "Administrator" could refer to a manager, or
> > someone appointed by a court; it typically describes someone in an
> > important official position.
>
> It's true that "admin" is a bad name for the role. However, it's also
> true that it's a bad role, which blends all kinds of different
> priveleges together. For example, allowing admins to edit protected
> pages (a content role), banning people (a policing role), editing
> mediawiki pages (development) and viewing deleted pages (purely an
> issue of trust).
>
I think you've hit the nail on the head.  Admins are asked to make
editorial decisions because they're essentially the only ones with the
power to make those decisions (even if we say they don't have the
authority to do so).

If admins don't make editorial decisions, and Wikipedia is not a
democracy (editorial decisions aren't made by majority vote), then who
makes the editorial decisions?

Frankly I think this is one place where Citizendium got it right, and
by that I mean separating the admins (constables) from the editors
(who make editorial decisions).  I don't mean to imply that their
method for choosing editors (reliance on credentials) is necessarily
appropriate, just that their approach of having someone there in the
first place to make these decisions, is.

Anthony


body:
Some time ago I was trying to find a place for moving essays from
Serbian Wikipedia. I realized that WM+Wikia don't have related
project. And I think that Wikibooks/Wikiverstiy are the right places
for such works.

Imagine an essay about Dostoevsky's poetry:
- It may be a work of some student of literature or even a work of
some professor of literature. So, in the academic sense it may be
completely relevant work. Also, it is *very useful* to anyone who is
learning about Dostoevsky; so it is strictly related to gaining our
goals.
- An essay may be very good verified. However, such essay as a whole *is* OR.
- Almost all kinds of content analysis of fiction works are fiction
works, too. If you want to say what do you think about the content of,
for example, The Brothers Karamazov, you have to deal with your
position (which means emotions) related to characters, Dostoevsky's
ideas and so on. This means that such essay is POV, too.

Yes, any kind of book related to natural and mathematical sciences may
be NPOV. Books in a number of fields of social sciences (like history,
psychology or linguistics) may also be NPOV.

OR is questionable: I tested performances of web servers Apache and
Roxen. You may test it, too and if we are using the same methods
(which I described in the paper), you will get similar results.
However, I did OR and strictly speaking, it doesn't pass NOR.

But, not-strictly-factographic analysis of art work is art again and
inherently it is both OR and POV. In this sense, the question is --
are Wikibooks limited only on books about natural sciences and only on
books which deal with factography? Is our goal is to make books only
for some academic fields or to all (reasonable, of course; I am not
speaking about books for studying astrology)?

* * *

The question related to the fiction is not so important. It deals with
popularity of Wikibooks and not with basic principles.

On 3/10/07, Garrett <masterthiefster at gmail.com> wrote:
> The rules against OR and POV were first established on EN Wikipedia, and
> other projects have since been inspired to inherit them (after all,
> Wikipedia was originally the "Wikipedia Textbook project" or somesuch). Many
> of our old policies were based on outdated forks of Wikipedia policies.
>
> First I'll talk about OR. Writing a textbook is very different from a
> Wikipedia article; while a Wikipedia article can only cover a topic that
> already exists, a book is free to reveal an entirely new topic.
>
> However, with both methods verifiability is still crucial; if any previous
> works cover the topic in question it's very important to mention them; even
> if they were not used to write the book it shows its authors have read
> widely and really know their topic. If no traditional sources exist then it
> is perhaps a topic a more trusted source should cover first (such as a real
> professor with a real degree), rather than the semi-anonymous laymen of
> Wikibooks. I'm hesitant to mention it, but the recent unfortunate events
> involving Essjay on Wikipedia show the limited verifiability of a wiki
> user's qualifications.
>
> NPOV is a vaguer issue; since a textbook is covering the topic from a
> particular angle, some degree of POV is often inevitable for the cause of
> interesting prose. However there's a difference between POV and actual bias.
> This is a matter better explored at a later date.
>
> OR aside, (although references and NPOV are still preferable if possible),
> hosting non-annotated fiction simply isn't within our scope. Our donations
> and tax breaks have been generously and specifically given for the purposes
> of running a non-profit source for copyleft textbooks. Even fiction focussed
> on instruction such as Ardvark the Aardvark (
> http://novelas.wikia.com/wiki/Ardvark_the_Aardvark ) had to be moved because
> of these restrictions.
>
> While in the past we have been lenient (some would say lax) about fiction
> and other non-textbook content being on Wikibooks, continuing the errors of
> the past doesn't help anything. Jimbo has stated we need to stick closer to
> our goals, and he's right.
>
> Anyway I hope I explained everything sufficiently.
>
> Garrett
>
> On 10/03/07, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am wandering is it a local policy on en: (and some other Wikibooks)
> > or, like on Wikipedia, it is a global policy?
> >
> > Yes, this is reasonable if we are talking only about manuals and
> > school books. However, I would like to see, for example, a book about
> > web servers comparison and I don't think that it is reasonable to stop
> > people writing such kinds of books. Also, I'd like to see essays and
> > even fiction books on Wikibooks, too. Of course, with defining what
> > kind of books would be able not to be NPOV and NOR (for example, I
> > don't think that a book about history may be POV) and with marking
> > such books as OR and POV.
> >
> > If it is locally related to en:, projects in other languages may not
> > follow such rules. However, it would be better to have a global policy
> > with definitions what may and what may not be OR and/or POV.
> >
> > I think that it is better to have strong Wikibookian communities with
> > a lot of fiction on Wikibooks then much smaller communities without
> > fiction on Wikibooks.
> >
> > I know that it sounds hereticly :) However, I would like to see a good
> > skilled (amateur) astronomer who prefer to write SF on Wikibooks. He
> > may start to write a book about astronomy through some time.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Textbook-l mailing list
> > Textbook-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
>


from_name: William Pietri

body:
charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com wrote:
> William Pietri wrote
>
>
>> As the Chronicle of Higher Education wrote, "But the incident is clearly
>> damaging to Wikipedia's credibility -- especially with professors who
>> will now note that one of the site's most visible academics has turned
>> out to be a fraud."
>>
>
> I'm going to sound like a snob. Why would anyone think tenure at a private college in the mid-West in theology was any kind of high academic profile? Academics would know how to rate this (i.e. there are thousands of middle-aged guys in this general category).
>

I don't know that anybody has suggested it was a *high* academic
profile. My point was more that being a full professor has a social
standing both in the academic world and in the population at large. If
you compare with a situation where Essjay claimed falsely to be a
garbage collector or a busboy in an all-night diner, you'll see what I
mean. We wouldn't be having this problem.

William

--
William Pietri <william at scissor.com>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:William_Pietri


body:
Hoi,
I think it is best to indicate opposition as soon as possible. Even with
thirty people on a kok wikipedia there are now sufficient reasons to
deny the project. Without a good write up explaining how a kok wikipedia
would respect the seven languages that are now split off from this code,
I am against the creation of this project
Thanks,
     GerardM

Mark Williamson schreef:
> Isn't it also better if we wait for the required 5 users? Right now it
> seems there are only two.
>
> Mark
>
> On 10/03/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> It is that simply a matter of picking and choosing. This project was
>> "voted" into being, It proved to be fractious for good reason; there
>> being more than one language behind the kok ISO-639-2 language code.
>> There is already a fight over the script, I think it best when we have a
>> proposal on how this is to be settled.
>>
>> Without such a proposal I am dead against it moving to a full WMF language.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>     GerardM
>>
>>
>> Mark Williamson schreef:
>>
>>> GOM, if not KNN. As Frederick is Goan and that is (afaik) the major
>>> variety, I can but assume that is the one they will use.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On 09/03/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Frederick Noronha schreef:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I'm trying... but it has not been very easy convincing others
>>>>> about what seems to be a "counter-intuitive" idea ... ("anyone being
>>>>> able to edit me writing... whaaat?")
>>>>>
>>>>> We're also having a script war going on here amidst Kok. But I think
>>>>> it will happen one day, hopefully sooner rather than later. FN
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/03/07, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, you could certainly take the lead by writing good articles for
>>>>>> http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok/ . It is currently empty
>>>>>> because of lack of participation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> I have had a look at Konkani, the code currently in use on the Incubator
>>>> will not necessarily lead to new project. Konkani is in ISO-639-3 no
>>>> longer considered to be a single language. There are currently seven
>>>> languages that all make up Konkani; they are
>>>>
>>>>     Katkari  [kfu
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kfu>] (India
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>>>
>>>>     Konkani  [knn
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=knn>] (India
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>>>
>>>>     Konkani, Goanese  [gom
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gom>] (India
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>>>
>>>>     Kukna  [kex <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kex>]
>>>>     (India <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>>>
>>>>     Phudagi  [phd
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=phd>] (India
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>>>
>>>>     Samvedi  [smv
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=smv>] (India
>>>>     <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>>>
>>>>     Varli  [vav <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=vav>]
>>>>     (India <http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN>)
>>>>
>>>> This means that you can forget about a script war; the paricipant of
>>>> these script wars will probably belong to one of these seven. The first
>>>> battle you will have to fight is the clarification of what it is that
>>>> you want.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>     GerardM


subject: [WikiEN-l] Dealing with juvenile vandalism

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>> Developping some kind of working
>>> arrangement with the school involved would make more sense.  Work with
>>> them to identify and deal with the offenders at a local level. [...]
>>>
>> Might this call for some sort of bot that watches for IP range warnings
>> and sends emails to any contacts listed on the talk page for the IP? The
>> system would take a while to get started, but it seems like it would
>> help close a feedback loop that is now often slow or broken.
>>
> Absolutely.  Talking to people is always a good way to solve problems.
> It will take a while to build contact lists, but it's always good to
> srive for long-term solutions.
>

Agreed.

I don't have time to build this myself, but I have suggested it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bot_requests#TattletaleBot

William

--
William Pietri <william at scissor.com>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:William_Pietri


body:
On 3/9/07, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> I have developed an automated C based server system which mirrors all
> Wikipedia images and compiles them into .bz2 archives as a library based
> on XML revision and dump.

How much compression did the .bz2 provide?  This would be much more
useful as a .tar.

Also, echoing others, what do you need approval for?

Anthony


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Review

body:
Rob Smith wrote:

>On 3/8/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On 08/03/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> It took us a couple of hundred years to get the
>>>balance right, and it's still changing.  But over that entire period,
>>>the country remained governable and tolerably well-regulated.  Is that
>>>so bad?
>>>To paraphrase a fellow Englishman, Jimbocracy is the very worst system
>>>of government, apart from all the others.
>>>
>>>
>>Indeed. We're doing things that have NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE; if we
>>didn't do some *really stupid* things in the process, it'd be a clear
>>case of not being nearly adventurous enough.
>>
>>
>Yah but see you're all back to talking about persons and personalities
>whereas what's needed is an independent Commission Review, kinda like the
>911 Commission, not to point fingers and find fallguys, but to examine
>institutional failings and weaknesses, and make dispassionate
>recommendations on how to avoid or manage future crisis.
>
Sure, but 911 Commission type structures are sometimes convenient
tactics used by governments to justify doing nothing.

What best accomplishes what you say is a separation of judicial and
legislative branches.  In theory that keeps the politicians occupied
with a more objective consideration of the laws themselves, and the
courts busy with how those laws are applied in individual cases.

In these circumstances, where David is right in saying that they have
never been done before, it is too easy to be knocked off track by a
single unexpected issue like that of Essjay's credentials.  We have to
be careful not to attach too much unwarranted weight to these one-off
incidents.

Ec


subject:
[Foundation-l] [Fwd: Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales Survives Monkey
	Attack!!]

body:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales Survives Monkey Attack!!
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 01:13:31 +0100
From: The Wikipedia Documentary <info at wikidocumentary.org>
To: anthere at anthere.org

As our crew ventures deeper into India with Wikipedia founder Jimmy
Wales and his ongoing to quest to spread information about free digital
knowledge, they encounter an ancient (but rapidly modernizing) culture
in a beautiful setting-- only to come face to face with one of the
oldest forms of social collaborative networking: a coordinated monkey
attack!

Check out the latest production podcast from Varanasi, India here:
www.wikidocumentary.org

Thanks!
-WikiDoc

_____________________________
Change address / Leave mailing list:
http://ymlp.com/u.php?Ferrisito+anthere at anthere.org
Hosting by  YourMailingListProvider


subject: [Foundation-l] [Fwd: Wiki Podcast from India!]

body:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Wiki Podcast from India!
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:29:29 +0100
From: The Wikipedia Documentary <info at wikidocumentary.org>
To: anthere at anthere.org

Hi there, documentary fans-

Currently traveling the world shooting the documentary "Truth in
Numbers: The Wikipedia Story", director Nic Hill makes it to Chennai,
India, where he and his small crew from Underdog Productions meet up
with Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales.  There they rock the first ever
Indian WikiCamp (http://wikicamp.in), an "UnConference" where wiki
enthusiasts from all over the country gather to "harness the power of
Wikis."

In the spirit of that harnessing, check out the 'making-of' podcast and
join in on the first-ever "crowd-sourced" documentary here:
www.wikidocumentary.org

Thanks!
-WikiDoc

_____________________________
Change address / Leave mailing list:
http://ymlp.com/u.php?Ferrisito+anthere at anthere.org
Hosting by  YourMailingListProvider


from_name: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com

body:
William Pietri wrote

> As the Chronicle of Higher Education wrote, "But the incident is clearly
> damaging to Wikipedia's credibility -- especially with professors who
> will now note that one of the site's most visible academics has turned
> out to be a fraud."

I'm going to sound like a snob. Why would anyone think tenure at a private college in the mid-West in theology was any kind of high academic profile? Academics would know how to rate this (i.e. there are thousands of middle-aged guys in this general category).

Charles

-----------------------------------------
Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email
Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam


from_name: Jeffrey V. Merkey

body:
Florence Devouard wrote:

>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>>I have compiled the entire library of Wikipedia's images and have a
>>bittorrent server ready to export this library on the internet.  I am
>>awaiting
>>word back from the Foundation for approval to enable the torrents.
>>
>>I have developed an automated C based server system which mirrors all
>>Wikipedia images and compiles them into .bz2 archives as a library based
>>on XML revision and dump.   When I get final approval, I will export
>>these torrents to allow the images to be available from the internet.
>>I will be in Arizona meeting with Dine (Navajo) folks next week on their
>>projects, but will have email access.
>>
>>The torrents will be available at
>>
>>http://www.wikigadugi.org:2780
>>
>>At some point.  I will let folks know when and if the Foundation has
>>approved this.
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>
>
>Just to be sure... Who did you ask approval from ?
>
>ant
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
Danny,

Jeff


body:
Bryan Tong Minh wrote:

>Does this archive include fair use images?
>
>
Only if they have a tag in the XML dump that indicates as such. There's
also a second archive that does not contain
any fair use images for each XML dump.

Jeff

>Bryan
>
>On 3/10/07, Florence Devouard <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I have compiled the entire library of Wikipedia's images and have a
>>>bittorrent server ready to export this library on the internet.  I am
>>>awaiting
>>>word back from the Foundation for approval to enable the torrents.
>>>
>>>I have developed an automated C based server system which mirrors all
>>>Wikipedia images and compiles them into .bz2 archives as a library based
>>>on XML revision and dump.   When I get final approval, I will export
>>>these torrents to allow the images to be available from the internet.
>>>I will be in Arizona meeting with Dine (Navajo) folks next week on their
>>>projects, but will have email access.
>>>
>>>The torrents will be available at
>>>
>>>http://www.wikigadugi.org:2780
>>>
>>>At some point.  I will let folks know when and if the Foundation has
>>>approved this.
>>>
>>>:-)
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>Just to be sure... Who did you ask approval from ?
>>
>>ant
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>


from_name: GerardM

body:
Hoi,
In what the WMF aims to do it reserves no place on what wikipedia editors do
and do not do. It says that we aim to provide information to people. For the
language committee it is nor necessarily relevant what language people
identify with as it has brought us an un-ending amount of people who do not
want to communicate with others and create new "languages" for political
reasons.

If you are so happy denying the use of Moldovan, be constructive and promote
the use of the ro.wikipedia with the Cyrillic script. If all you can do is
deny this option as well as deny the existence of a mo.wikipedia, please
refrain from posting unless you have something positive to say.

Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/10/07, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> --- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think this is a big misunderstanding on your part.
> > The existance of
> > a Wikipedia in a linguistic entity does not indicate
> > any level of
> > difference from other Wikipedias' languages. It does
> > not claim that it
> > is a "language" or a "dialect".
>
> I think there's no misunderstanding here.
> You do have Wikipedia editors identifying their
> linguistic identity as Bosniac, Croatian, Sebian, or
> Serbo-Croatian. You don't have Wikipedia editors
> identifying their linguistic identity as Moldovan.
> That makes all the difference.
>
> :en:Dpotop
>
>
>
>
> > We have Wikipedias in Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian,
> > and Serbo-Croatian.
> > It's a bit of a paradox, if we have Wikipedias in
> > the first 3, we
> > shouldn't have one in the fourth logically.
> >
> > But this problem is non-existant from a linguistic
> > standpoint
> > precisely for the reason I stated above. All four
> > are linguistic
> > entities, despite the fact that Serbo-Croatian is an
> > "umbrella" entity
> > that allows for the use of the other three. As long
> > as there is a
> > reason to have these Wikis separate (ie, unless BCS
> > people can agree
> > to a merger), they will be separate.
> >
> > Now, I think everybody here knows by now that you
> > would be willing to
> > merge mo and ro Wikipedias with a script conversion
> > system on
> > ro.wikipedia. That is fine. Nobody here objects to
> > such a system. What
> > we do object to is that at this very moment, the
> > proposal has very
> > little support from the Romanian Wikipedian
> > community. You have been
> > told many times that you are welcome to try to test
> > the waters,
> > organize a poll at ro.wp, try to convince people of
> > the utility and
> > validity of such a system, but you keep complaining
> > to this list about
> > how it's not your responsibility and about how WE
> > need to do
> > something.
> >
> > How can you have not figured out by now that with
> > hundreds of e-mails
> > repeating the exact same thing in so many words, you
> > are not only
> > failing to change anything, you are actually making
> > people more and
> > more firmly against the position you represent?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 09/03/07, Liviu Andronic <landronimirc at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On 3/5/07, Gerard Meijssen
> > <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Verbosity is a prerequisite for my arguments
> > to be understood. Otherwise
> > > > > these are simply skipped.
> > > > >
> > > > .... Really ? ...
> > >
> > > At times, this is the feeling that I have. At any
> > rate, verbosity is
> > > necessary to make my arguments clear.
> > >
> > >
> > >  > 2. According to the recently adopted Language
> > proposal
> > > > > policy<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:LPP>-
> > that I suppose can be
> > > > > applied to existing wikipedias to determine
> > their
> > > > > "validity" - there are three "essential"
> > requisites that can be
> > > > verified: a
> > > > > valid ISO-639 code, language singularity and a
> > viable community and
> > > > > audience.
> > > > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > You are plain wrong. You are also wrong in
> > applying the policy in this
> > > > way. The policy determines how new languages are
> > to be accepted. The
> > > > Moldovan Wikipedia already exists and it does
> > have a valid ISO 639 code.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >     GerardM
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I have no intent to renew this
> > > debate. This is simply to say that my view over
> > > the entire issue has not radically changed. For
> > the following (same)
> > > reasons:
> > >
> > > From what I know, the tiny wikipedias (like the
> > Moldovan one) were created ?
> > > partir de a "list" with no formal voting and
> > without following any specific
> > > guidelines or policy. On this basis, I believe
> > that the newly adopted policy
> > > could be used  for determining the "correctness"
> > of wikipedias that  were
> > > created in "obscure" ways. In any case, it  is not
> > up to me to decide such a
> > > usage.
> > >
> > > As to the valid ISO 639 code.. It is valid indeed
> > in the eyes of the ISO,
> > > but also according to the official POV of the
> > Party of Communists in RM (I
> > > suspect), of the Transnistrian authorities and
> > might have been in the eyes
> > > of the Soviet Authorities. [On a side note: I do
> > not understand how you
> > > expect my arguments to be completely apolitical
> > over an issue that is pure
> > > politics: considering Moldovan as a linguistic
> > entity.]
> > >
> > > However, scholarly research - Western included -
> > disputes this. A lot
> > > of linguists
> > > - if not most - do (with the notable exception of
> > Vasile Stati; notable,
> > > because he is the one). The regulating body of the
> > "Moldovan language" -
> > > with regard to the Constitution - disputes this.
> > Less important in the eyes
> > > of the WMF, natives dispute this (though still
> > waiting for someone from
> > > Transnistria here). Please follow the links  in
> > my  previous messages if
> > > you are not persuaded by this paragraph.
> > >
> > > And, probably most important  for the Board, the
> > mo.wiki domain does  not
> > > host content in a linguistic entity different from
> > the Romanian one. It
> > > simply  hosts transliterated Romanian content. I
> > honestly believe that  it
> > > is wrong for  the Foundation to blindly follow the
> > ISO specifications over
> > > this issue. It is also wrong for the Board to
> > adopt - from the NPOV
> > > perspective, which should be respected even if
> > certain flexibility is
> > > endorsed - a political POV over a
> > linguistic/historical fact: at a given
> > > period, in a given region, Romanian was written
> > with a different script.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Liviu
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > >
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Florence Devouard

body:
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> I have compiled the entire library of Wikipedia's images and have a
> bittorrent server ready to export this library on the internet.  I am
> awaiting
> word back from the Foundation for approval to enable the torrents.
>
> I have developed an automated C based server system which mirrors all
> Wikipedia images and compiles them into .bz2 archives as a library based
> on XML revision and dump.   When I get final approval, I will export
> these torrents to allow the images to be available from the internet.
> I will be in Arizona meeting with Dine (Navajo) folks next week on their
> projects, but will have email access.
>
> The torrents will be available at
>
> http://www.wikigadugi.org:2780
>
> At some point.  I will let folks know when and if the Foundation has
> approved this.
>
> :-)
>
> Jeff

Just to be sure... Who did you ask approval from ?

ant


body:
Rory Stolzenberg wrote:

>On 3/9/07, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I have compiled the entire library of Wikipedia's images and have a
>>bittorrent server ready to export this library on the internet.  I am
>>awaiting
>>word back from the Foundation for approval to enable the torrents.
>>
>>I have developed an automated C based server system which mirrors all
>>Wikipedia images and compiles them into .bz2 archives as a library based
>>on XML revision and dump.   When I get final approval, I will export
>>these torrents to allow the images to be available from the internet.
>>I will be in Arizona meeting with Dine (Navajo) folks next week on their
>>projects, but will have email access.
>>
>>The torrents will be available at
>>
>>http://www.wikigadugi.org:2780
>>
>>At some point.  I will let folks know when and if the Foundation has
>>approved this.
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>
>
>The Foundation does not own the copyright to (almost) all of those pictures.
>Why do you need approval from them? As long as they're distributed according
>to the terms of their licenses (assuming you aren't using copyrighted images
>that Wikipedia uses under a claim of fair use), you don't need any
>permission.
>
>
When I start distributing them, there WILL be DMCA takedown notices and
legal threats from various folks out on the internet
I am certain, along with possible litigation.

That's fine. If someone wants to take me to Court for distributing
Wikipedia images, I have both the legal background,
and the resources to defend such actions.

I need the Foundations permission because they are the source of the
images on the internet. In the event there is a DMCA takedown
notice, I will notify the Wikipedia contributor on their talk page who
uploaded the image, wait for the response, then give the complaining
party the time period to file suit if they really feel that strongly
about it, or work out some reasonable compromise (which would be best)
between the parties.

Should someone want to file suit or really complain, then the Foundation
can make the call on whether or not the image should also
come off Wikipedia without exposing the Foundation to the same level of
legal risks someone who is actively distributing the images
would be. People who own copyrights may not have an issue with Fair use
images on Wikipedia as a encyclopedia, but they may have a more serious
view when someone is distributing full downloads and archives of images
so people REALLY CAN host the encyclopedia. This will test that premise
and I would expect to see more people coming forward on image use in
general so the Foundation can more effectively identify images which
may in fact be sources of conflict.

In essence, the Foundation will have a "buffer" of sorts one level away
from the forefront of these legal issues and at the same time be able
to filter a lot of the conflict over image distribution. The other point
is, technically under the law, WMF may be considered the source
of the images in some cases, and in that case, they would be the
responder to DMCA takedown notices. I think this would help
clean up a lot of the images also (people would think twice about
uploading fair use images if they knew they were being repacked
and distributed and that they may receive DMCA notices about the images).

At any rate, it would be impolite and a breach of loyalty to the
foundation and community to go ahead with such a plan without permission
and without giving the Foundation the opportunity to comment on the
proposal and offer suggestions.

Jeff


body:
Anthony wrote:

>On 3/9/07, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I have developed an automated C based server system which mirrors all
>>Wikipedia images and compiles them into .bz2 archives as a library based
>>on XML revision and dump.
>>
>>
>
>How much compression did the .bz2 provide?  This would be much more
>useful as a .tar.
>
>
There is also a .tar for each archive.

Jeff

>Also, echoing others, what do you need approval for?
>
>Anthony
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>


from_name: Bryan Tong Minh

body:
Does this archive include fair use images?

Bryan

On 3/10/07, Florence Devouard <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> > I have compiled the entire library of Wikipedia's images and have a
> > bittorrent server ready to export this library on the internet.  I am
> > awaiting
> > word back from the Foundation for approval to enable the torrents.
> >
> > I have developed an automated C based server system which mirrors all
> > Wikipedia images and compiles them into .bz2 archives as a library based
> > on XML revision and dump.   When I get final approval, I will export
> > these torrents to allow the images to be available from the internet.
> > I will be in Arizona meeting with Dine (Navajo) folks next week on their
> > projects, but will have email access.
> >
> > The torrents will be available at
> >
> > http://www.wikigadugi.org:2780
> >
> > At some point.  I will let folks know when and if the Foundation has
> > approved this.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Jeff
>
>
> Just to be sure... Who did you ask approval from ?
>
> ant
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
Gary Kirk wrote:

>I'm not a lawyer nor am I that familiar with it regards to fair use
>etc (here in Britain) but what you seem to be saying is that what you
>want to do is not strictly within the law but you'll do it anyway and
>it's alright because the Wikimedia Foundation can deal with it.
>
>
Partially correct, but no. In the US, we have something called the
Digital Millenium Copyright Act,
or DMCA. It allows copyrighted materials to be used in certain
circumstances.
Wikipedia relies on it to use materials which otherwise would be illegal
to use on the internet. That's why Brad
suggested folks get rid of fair use images and replace them with free
ones, to avoid the pitfalls.

Using them on the public Wikipedia site is one thing, however, rolling
them up into archives
and distributing them with database dumps is another matter, though also
protected under the DMCA
just as Wikipedia is. That being said, copyright holders who may have a
little discomfort with
Wikipedia using their images may get a little more upset if they are
being distributed over the internet
along with dumps and hosted on hundreds of sites. The DMCA provides a
procedure for
legal actions against sites that distribute copyrighted materials, but
it also protects sites on
the internet.

What you say is partially correct, except it is the Wikipedia community
who have uploaded
fair use images and not me. The same legal exposure exists either way,
except if I am distributing
the images as archives, I become the legal target, and not the
foundation directly. There also a very
short time period someone can bring legal action under the DMCA (10 days
I think), after which, use
of the images becomes legal for anyone.

Jeff

>You also didn't answer Anthere's question - or is the original message
>of this thread you 'asking' for permission/approval?
>
>
I did answer the question, just not in this post but in a previous one.

Jeff

>O
>


from_name: Martin Swift

subject: [Textbook-l] [Fwd: Wikibooks e-mail]Link spamming

body:
Hi Rob and gang,

On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 12:51:21PM -0700, Robert Horning wrote:
> I'm forwarding an e-mail I got through the Wikibooks e-mail service.

Was it supposed to come in this email? I didn't get anything but your
email.

> [...] a mass reply to this guy
> to let him know he has stepped over the line may be appropriate.

Perhaps, we should rather have the server administrator send a single,
to-the-point email stating that this person has been in breach of the
terms of usage (I'm assuming there are such) and that continued abuse
will result in being barred from using the server.

Cheers,
Martin

--
\u270C


from_name: Guy Chapman aka JzG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Review

body:
On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 18:22:45 -0700, "Rob Smith" <nobs03 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>Yah but see you're all back to talking about persons and personalities
>whereas what's needed is an independent Commission Review, kinda like the
>911 Commission, not to point fingers and find fallguys, but to examine
>institutional failings and weaknesses, and make dispassionate
>recommendations on how to avoid or manage future crisis.

Oh yes, the 911 commission worked really well, didn't it?  Shut the
conspiracy theorists up completely.  It's particularly noticeable how
many of them accepted the commission's findings, rather than
denouncing it as yet another part of the conspiracy.  None at all,
last time I counted.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


from_name: Aphaia

subject:
[Foundation-l] [WikiEN-l] Accountability: bringing back a
	proposal I made nearly 2 years ago

body:
On 3/10/07, Kat Walsh <kat at wikimedia.org> wrote:
> As many others do I believe this is too bureaucratic, and I don't
> think it will ever be followed on a wide enough scale to be useful.

Yes, I would like to add my real life experience. Some years ago, I
enrolled myself to an academic online database for matching jobs. They
are an institute run by government, required my snail mail address to
send a new password (and perhaps verify my address) but require no
credentials at all. While this kind of information is someday need
first when you apply for the opening job, but that is what we want? A
commitment as serious as the case you are applying for the job irl? To
introduce ourselves online, we need the level of verification even
governmental organizations wouldn't require? Personally I suspect how
many people would like to commit to the project in such a depth ...

> Positions of personal-level trust are different -- checkusers, press
> contacts, and similar. And for those, I don't care about credentials,
> unless the credentials are in some way related to what they are doing
> -- just identity, that they are who they say they are. Already we ask
> that stewards prove they are over age 18; checkusers *should* be the
> same. I'm sure we will be more stringent about checking on the
> identities of press contacts in the future.

Agreed strongly.
As for checkuser, I made a similar question/proposal on meta
[[m:Talk:Check user policy]]. If you are interested, please give a
look to talk and input your idea.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:CheckUser_policy

Personally I think we are better to require the same qualification for
oversight, but it would be another issue ...

Cheers,

--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *


from_name: Alison Wheeler

body:
On Fri, March 9, 2007 14:23, geni wrote:
> And unless you have an ND licence people will cut out the ads (yes I
> know they do that anyway). Going by the fuss over TiVo TV companies
> don't like you doing that.

Something interesting in the UK is what Channel 4 are doing with their
post-transmission "on demand" service which allows you to watch a program
during the subsequent seven days.

They are removing the ads themselves (and no, there is no charge to watch.)

Commercial radio and television are very rare beasts; the sell what they
don't make and, rather like hotels, all they are selling is time. Once
that time has passed the product is either worthless (hotel) or of rapidly
decreasing value (after DVD sales have would down, etc) so the
availability of 'product' should become more likely as the calendar moves
on. Back catalogues should be releasable in some form, eventually ...

Alison


subject: [WikiEN-l] Review

body:
On 3/10/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> In these circumstances, where David is right in saying that they have
> never been done before, it is too easy to be knocked off track by a
> single unexpected issue like that of Essjay's credentials.  We have to
> be careful not to attach too much unwarranted weight to these one-off
> incidents.
>
> Ec

The Essjay affair can be summed up as: the guy was a victim of his own
stupidity. Now how did that attract international mainstream media
attention?


body:
On 3/10/07, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> Using them on the public Wikipedia site is one thing, however, rolling
> them up into archives
> and distributing them with database dumps is another matter, though also
> protected under the DMCA
> just as Wikipedia is.

FWIW, I don't think you're interpreting the DMCA correctly.  However,
that's really not my problem or Wikimedia's problem, so it's off-topic
for this mailing list.

Anthony


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

body:
> From: <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
>
> William Pietri wrote
>
>> As the Chronicle of Higher Education wrote, "But the incident is
>> clearly
>> damaging to Wikipedia's credibility -- especially with professors who
>> will now note that one of the site's most visible academics has
>> turned
>> out to be a fraud."
>
> I'm going to sound like a snob. Why would anyone think tenure at a
> private college in the mid-West in theology was any kind of high
> academic profile? Academics would know how to rate this (i.e. there
> are thousands of middle-aged guys in this general category).

It's not a _high_ academic profile, but I heard a relevant joke on "A
Prairie Home Companion" a few weeks ago:

Q: "What do you call a doctor who graduated at the bottom of his class?"
A: "Doctor."

I am certain that _any_ of those "thousands of middle-aged guys" have
read more books about theology than I ever have. Probably 90% of them
have read and remember, not only more than I, but more than a
software engineer of my acquaintance who teaches Sunday school, the
one whom I call whenever I want to know things like what "the TULIP
of Calvinism" is.

A "tenured professor at a private college in the mid-West" is an
excellent source of knowledge for anything that a) _within_ the area
of the coursework he did as an undergraduate and grad student, and b)
_not_ within his area of deep expertise--the area in which he has
written his thesis or published research. Those are exactly the areas
in which he may have a strong point of view and/or bees in his
bonnet, and feel that his credentials entitle him to speak ex cathedra.

On the other hand, he's a great person to ask about material from
that course he hated and got the "C" in twenty years ago, because
he'll feel insecure and check his facts. The point is, he'll know
exactly what facts to check and where to go to check them, and he'll
be able to find them quickly and easily.

Academic credentials are easily verified, represent disinterested
third-party testimony, and are an imprecise but _valid_ indicator
that the degree-holder had at one point in one's life mastered a
certain body of knowledge for long enough to pass an exam.

Of course, there could many basic areas in which a layperson, writing
with "Catholicism for Dummies" at hand and consulting it while
writing, could do better than a tenured professor speaking off the
top of his head.

But somewhere between "credentials mean nothing" and "credentials
mean everything" is The Truth, which is: "credentials mean _something._"


from_name: Timwi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Rename admins to janitors

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
>
> People who ask admins/sysops to make editorial decisions are simply
> unaware of their role.

And what do you think might cause the wrong impression of their role, if
not the name of the role? :-p

> Instead of causing loads of work by renaming the position, it would
> IMO be more effective to educate the others.

I can't think of any way to do this other than to cause a large media
spectacle (otherwise the wide public is not going to take notice). And,
frankly, the easiest way to do this is to rename admins to janitors and
publicise that.

> People who make editorial decisions about writing are usually called
> editors. Should we rename that term too?

No, because it is already the case that everyone is an editor, and
everyone can get involved in editorial decisions, so the term is
well-applied here.

> Also, the fact people misunderstand is partly caused by admins
> messing up.

No. People misunderstand the role of admins because the role of admins
is misrepresented by people (particularly the media). And it is
misrepresented because, not knowing otherwise, human beings tend to
assume that someone who is titled "administrator" _is_ an administrator,
and not a janitor. In other words, by using the word "administrator",
Wikipedians are misrepresenting it already.

If it is necessary to say "we only _call_ them 'administrators', but
they're not really administrators", they shouldn't be called administrators.

Timwi


from_name: Jacky PB

body:
Concerning your invitation to work, which is
insulting:
1. Don't you working guys have civility rules around
here any more?
2. Does your work consist in giving uncivil answers to
messages you didn't read, sent by a user that did not
send messages on this forum in the last 3 months?
Because both you and GerardM answered my message
without reading it. Or, if you read it, it may be
useful to interrupt working for thinking a bit.

Dpotop

--- Berto 'd Sera <albertoserra at ukr.net> wrote:

> Hoi!
>
> > My constructive position
> So... It was told to Liviu, it gets told to YOU. It
> will be duly copied to
> all of you, as an auto answer.
> 1) WHO of you spammers has found the time to call up
> a regular vote on
> RO.wiki on becoming fully bilingual and giving
> warranties of acceptance of
> articles by the Transdnistrian minority?
> 2) Who of you will prove clever enough to do that
> BEFORE littering our
> mailboxes with your carnival?
>
> Until you answer to that ANY Moldavian position (pro
> Cyrillic/anti-cyrillic/Acyrillic or whatever) will
> be just low quality
> toilet paper for my house. Or do you guys seriously
> think that we want to
> start a big internal war in RO.wiki just to please a
> couple of hysterical
> kids?
>
> You want to make a change in someone else's house.
> You go there and ask the
> landlord for permission, before coming up here with
> your emotional scenes.
> It's called "respect" and "private property" in case
> you aren't familiar
> with the terms.
>
> All the tears in the universe won't make a
> difference. GO TO WORK! No work,
> no consideration.
>
> B?rto ?d S?ra
> Personagi dl?ann 2006 p?r l?arvista american-a Time
> (tanme tuti voj?otri)
>
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

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from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject:
[Foundation-l] Reminder: IRC meeting about Wikiversity research -
	22 UTC

body:
Hi all,

This is a reminder of the meeting about research in Wikiversity, which
will be today (UTC) @ 22:00 UTC in freenode channel: #wikiversity.
Details of the meeting are at:
<http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:IRC_meeting_about_research>.
(Info on timezones at:
<http://worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx> and
<http://www.worldtimezone.com>. Info on using IRC can be found at:
<http://freenode.net/faq.shtml>, and client info at:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_Relay_Chat_clients>.)

This will be a logged meeting - meaning that the log of the meeting
may be published on Wikiversity or elsewhere.

Hope to see you there - you're welcome to participate as well as
simply to "lurk" :-)

Cheers,
Cormac


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 10/03/07, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/10/07, stvrtg <stvrtg at gmail.com> wrote:

> > I dont know how diffs could actually be made more concise in order to best
> > fit, but it seems that we can at least indicate whether text has been added
> > or removed
> > and what text that is.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EnhanceHistory-ShowerJuggling.png

ooh, nice option. Is that a funky bit of JavaScript? It should be
considered for MediaWiki itself.

- d.