body:
Hi Mark,

I kind of agree with Waerth, I tried to explain but you don't get it,
it's true what you said that if you pass the border you say: "I'm on
the other side of the border" that's why I wrote "(with exception the
borderlines)" but I hope you see that orthography is just one point of
the whole problem, changing the orthography won't help us much!
(Especially not is it is Missingsch and not LS).

Servien

2005/7/3, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>:
> Also, Missingsch is _not_ considered to be a dialect of Low Saxon.
> Rather, it is a dialect of German with some Low Saxon traits. Please
> see Ron's earlier message, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch
>
> Mark
>
> On 03/07/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Servien, at this point you have gone beyond even a distortion of
> > reality to pure fantasy. Speech varieties cannot develop separately if
> > they're spoken 4km apart from one another (an example I gave earlier
> > in the thread), unless there's a huge geographical barrier between
> > them.
> >
> > Low Saxon is a dialect continuum. This means that things change
> > gradually. There is no "oops, suddenly I crossed the national border,
> > now I can't understand what people say!"
> >
> > It's more like "hmm, I can't understand the people in this town as
> > well as the last, but almost as much..." and a little bit less and
> > less until eventually "I don't understand the people in this town at
> > all", but certainly there is no division along national borders like
> > you're trying to say.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 03/07/05, Servien Ilaino <servien at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Mark,
> > >
> > > It is not a "linguistic constructed world" as you call it because I
> > > don't plan on constructing a common language to be used on nds-nl.
> > > Everyone will be free to use his or her own dialect.
> > >
> > > You're correct by saying Dutch-Low Saxon speakers can mostly
> > > understand each other, because Dutch-Low Saxon tends more towards
> > > Dutch and German-Low Saxon tends way more towards German (as suggested
> > > in the name) in fact the Low Saxon used isn't even Low Saxon, it's
> > > Missingsch.
> > >
> > > It is not preposterous to split up the Low Saxon by border, if people
> > > in the Netherlands understand the German-Low Saxon better they're
> > > welcome to go there, but I dought that they in fact will understand
> > > the German-Low Saxon version, since ALL Dutch-Low Saxon dialect use an
> > > orthography based on Dutch and mostly use words from Dutch. Of course
> > > you can't always understand one another like some Twents words won't
> > > be used in Stellingwarfs etc. but this problem is smaller on the Dutch
> > > side.
> > >
> > > The two languages on either sides of the border have evolved
> > > differently as result of Dutch and German influences, the Wikipedia
> > > isn't actually in "Low Saxon" it's also called "Plattdeutsch" refering
> > > only to the German-Low Saxon dialects, thus not including Dutch, which
> > > you can see because they're not mutually understandable even if you
> > > change the orthography. That's why I want to create a Dutch-Low Saxon
> > > Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > There are more dialects in the Netherlands than only Stellingwarfs and
> > > Grunnings, like Twents, Sallaands and Veluws etc. the people who live
> > > on the Veluwe understand Grunnings Twents and Stellingwarfs mostly and
> > > vice versa, this isn't the case with the Low Saxon-German dialects.
> > > (With a few exceptions along the borderlines.)
> > >
> > > You said: "German and Dutch aren't really mutually comprehensible when
> > > spoken, but when written you can get at least the gist of what the
> > > other person is saying."
> > >
> > > You're half right, if German and Dutch LS-dialects are writting down
> > > they still wouldn't be able to understand each other even if they had
> > > a common orthography because on the other side of the border they use
> > > a lot of German words, if you read on the website, there is even a
> > > category saying if they don't know the LS word they should use German,
> > > and this happens a lot, and makes it incomprehensible for Dutch-LS
> > > speakers if don't didn't study German! (As result most Dutch-LS users
> > > use the Dutch version.
> > >
> > > Servien Ilaino
> > >
> > > 2005/7/3, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>:
> > > > Hi Servien,
> > > >
> > > > There is a major fallacy in your argument.
> > > >
> > > > That is that you are saying "...is even different in Dutch-Low Saxon..."
> > > >
> > > > But there is no absolute division of dialects.
> > > >
> > > > In your artificial linguistic constructed world you'd like everybody
> > > > to believe in, all Dutch speakers of Low Saxon can understand one
> > > > another and speak identically, and all German Low Saxon speakers can
> > > > understand one another and speak identically, yet German Low Saxon
> > > > speakers and Dutch Low Saxon speakers can't understand one another.
> > > >
> > > > But this is not the case. The fact of the matter is, Low Saxon itself
> > > > is a dialect continuum. A man from one side of the Dutch-German border
> > > > can perfectly understand the Nedersaksisch of a man from the other.
> > > > Yet you would split them into "Dutch Low Saxon" and "German Low Saxon"
> > > > categories. This is preposterous.
> > > >
> > > > Another huge problem with the current Low Saxon Wikipedia is that it
> > > > seems it's written in Missingsch rather than "real" Low Saxon. I would
> > > > like to find out more about this particular issue, though.
> > > >
> > > > Wouter has said before that people on opposite sides of the border can
> > > > understand each other well enough, but that a Pommersch speaker can't
> > > > understand a speaker of t Grunnings, and for this reason Germany and
> > > > the Netherlands need different Wikipedias based on nation for Platt,
> > > > rather than on actual solid linguistic distinctions.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, a speaker of Pommersch can't understand a speaker of
> > > > Grunnings, but a speaker of Oostfreesk and Stellingwarfs should be
> > > > able to have a conversation with few difficulties.
> > > >
> > > > Also, it is a common linguistic principle that intelligibility is
> > > > greatly increased in the written word. I could not, for my life,
> > > > understand Derek Ross if he told me about Scotland in Scots, yet if he
> > > > wrote it down I would be able to understand it at a good level. A
> > > > speaker of Navajo and a speaker of Western Apache can only understand
> > > > each other a little bit, but the written word is almost completely
> > > > mutually comprehensible. German and Dutch aren't really mutually
> > > > comprehensible when spoken, but when written you can get at least the
> > > > gist of what the other person is saying.
> > > >
> > > > Recently, somebody filed a request on the requests for new languages
> > > > page for a Triestin Wikipedia. Almost the whole world considers
> > > > Triestin to be a dialect of Venet, yet this person and his supporters
> > > > consider it to be a different language.
> > > >
> > > > So I asked for a sample from two independent sources. The samples were
> > > > nearly identical. I posted them, and he said "Well, I would translate
> > > > it this way" even though both of my translations were provided by
> > > > native speakers. His "alternative" translation was still nearly
> > > > identical, and those differences that WERE added could be explained as
> > > > purposeful linguistic manipulations to make it more different from
> > > > Venet. (Similarly, Bokm?l and Nynorsk have various acceptable variant
> > > > forms. In many cases, there are forms in Bokm?l which are identical to
> > > > forms in Nynorsk. Often, people [especially Nynorsk-users]
> > > > purposefully avoid forms similar to Bokm?l to make their writing more
> > > > distinctly Nynorsk)
> > > >
> > > > The main problem is how to solve a dialect continuum. Creating
> > > > separate Wikipedias based on national borders is just ignoring the
> > > > problem. Oostfreesk speakers and Pommersch speakers will still not be
> > > > able to understand each other. Oostfreesk and Stellingwarfs speakers
> > > > will still be able to understand each other. Teh world will keep on
> > > > turning. And we will have side-stepped the problem rather than
> > > > attempting to look for a workable solution.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > On 03/07/05, Servien Ilaino <nl2b at europe.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Mark,
> > > > >
> > > > > It's quite ununderstandable, it's not just the orthography, but in Germany
> > > > > they use different words so you have to know that dialect to understand it.
> > > > > I can understand the first sentence, but the second sentence is very hard to
> > > > > understand, the first part of this sentence is understandable as well, at
> > > > > "veet nu Bescheed" it's completely ununderstandable for any Low Saxon
> > > > > speaker in the Netherlands: "Man de Bezeukers vun de Lezung miet Hartmut
> > > > > Cyriacks un Peter Niszen veet nu Bescheed euver den plattduutschen Harry
> > > > > Potter. De Kulturvereen "PEP" un de Stadtbeukerie Kelinghuzen harrn de
> > > > > baaiden Plattmakers inlaodt, un dat veer en heel gode Idee..."
> > > > >
> > > > >  The first sentence of that text is even different in Dutch-Low Saxon: "Wie
> > > > > weet nog wat en teuvernaor is? Dat et Platduutse woord deurveur "Sauwberer"
> > > > > is, bin de meeste minsen waorschynlik al vergeten. (Plattdeutsch: "Wokeen
> > > > > veet noch, vat en Teuverer is? Dut ole plattduutsche Wort veur "Zaauberer"
> > > > > hebbt de mehrsten Luud maaist vergeten.")
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope you get my point now...
> > > > >
> > > > > Servien Ilaino
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mark Williamson"
> > > > > To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage
> > > > > Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:00:59 -0700
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Servien,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please check out
> > > > > >
> > > > > http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/ks/index.php?title=HP_op_Platt&variant=ks-de
> > > > > > and tell me what you think of the conversion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's obviously not perfect but I'm still working on it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any tips for improvements (ie, specific spelling errors) are welcome.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 02/07/05, Servien Ilaino wrote:
> > > > > > > Sorry it's suppose to be
> > > > > > >
> > > > > http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker:Servien/Heufdbladsyde
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Servien Ilaino"
> > > > > > > To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > > > > > Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage
> > > > > > > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:11:47 -0500
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I requested Dutch-Low Saxon a few weeks ago and I kind of made my
> > > > > > > own
> > > > > > > > mainpage for Wikipedia (if it ever gets created that is...) but
> > > > > > > anyway...
> > > > > > > > for people who like to check it out here is the link:
> > > > > > > > http://nds.wikipedia.org/Bruker:Servien/Heufdbladsyde
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please post any suggestions and stuff, like to read some comments.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Question: On Wikipedia-L posts are mostly grouped together, but how
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > you do that? (messages below each other like on wikipedia ": and ::
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > :::" to show those are the replies. I hope you kind of understand
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > because I don't really know how to explain it myself haha.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Servien Ilaino!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > ___________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> > > > > > > > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > ___________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> > > > > > > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > > > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > > > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> > > > > > QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> > > > > > POSSIT MATERIARI
> > > > > > ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > > >
> > > > >  --
> > > > >
> > > > > ___________________________________________________________
> > > > > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> > > > >  http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> > > > QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> > > > POSSIT MATERIARI
> > > > ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> > QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> > POSSIT MATERIARI
> > ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
> >
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] TeX not working

body:
Hi,

I have the following in my LocalSettings.php:

$wgUseTeX           = true;
$wgMathPath         = "{$wgUploadPath}/math";
$wgMathDirectory    = "{$wgUploadDirectory}/math";
$wgTmpDirectory     = "{$wgUploadDirectory}/tmp";
$wgTexvc            = "/c/wp/wiki/math/texvc";

I have made sure that "/c/wp/wiki/math/texvc" is a valid executable.
Also I have installed tetex-bin (which supposedly includes both latex
and dvips) and imagemagick.

However, I get the same behaviour as if TeX was turned off
("<math>1+1=2<math>" in the wiki page).

I use Debian GNU/Linux 3.1.

Any help?
Thanks,
Timwi


list: wikien-l

from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
--- daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:
> The purpose of Wikipedia is to create an encyclopedia. Period. Everything
> else is tangential to that. We have been fortunate in seeing that a strong
> community has emerged as a result of this common goal, but that is precisely
> the
> point. The community emerged because a bunch of people around the world are
> trying to create something together. People who are not interested in that
> goal
>  have all the rights in the world not to be involved in it.

Very well put. And I agree that all this game playing needs to be moved
somewhere else. Wikicities is a great place but please keep the ads so that the
cost is taken care of.

A vote on this is not needed.

-- mav

__________________________________________________
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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: guaka at no-log.org

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage

body:
> Servien, at this point you have gone beyond even a distortion of
> reality to pure fantasy. Speech varieties cannot develop separately if
> they're spoken 4km apart from one another (an example I gave earlier
> in the thread), unless there's a huge geographical barrier between
> them.

Mark, het wordt nu wel erg irritant en ik denk dat je het toch aan mensen over moet
laten die wel weten waar ze het over hebben.

Misschien dat deze discussie gewoon in het Nederlands en nds (en een klein beetje
Duits) moet worden gevoerd.


from_name: Wouter Steenbeek

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Is Aphaia around again?!

body:
>Wouter, the problem is that it wasn't created in the Test-wp "directory".
>
>It still exists, though.
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A4iske_Sproake
Thanks, but originally it was in the right directory. Wonder how it moved...

I apologise to Aphaia for accusing her falsely.

>On 03/07/05, Wouter Steenbeek <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > What the hell! I just discovered the test wiki article
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/Test-wp:Seeltersk/Fr?iske_Sproake has
>disappeared!
> > This can impossibly be done by the author, who can only erase the text.
>So
> > either this is a kind of database error, or a moderator on meta: deleted
>it!
> > There is one main suspect.
> >
> > WHY on earth do such things happen? Can those test wikis /never/ be left
>in
> > peace?
> >
> > Wouter
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > MSN Webmessenger doet het altijd en overal http://webmessenger.msn.com/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
>--
>SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
>QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
>POSSIT MATERIARI
>ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Webmessenger doet het altijd en overal http://webmessenger.msn.com/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Copyright and Britannica Article List

body:
--- Michael Snow <wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
> There *is* creativity involved in a list of what an encyclopedia
> contains, quite specifically due to the selection process involved in
> determining what subjects go into the encyclopedia in the first place.

While that is certainly true I do think that our use of this list is fair. We
are *not* creating a WikiReader that covers the same topics that EB covers.
That would clearly not be fair. Instead we are using that list just to assist
us in filling gaps that exist in our coverage;  when any particular item is
filled, we delete it from the list.

-- mav (aka IANAL)

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list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] en.wiktionary.org temporarily
	broken

references:
<42C33447.50301@pobox.com>	<9a878c4405062923081aa5dea@mail.gmail.com>	<42C3A302.20205@pobox.com>
	<42C3C7A2.5090006@softhome.net>	<42C3CBF0.1080401@yahoo.it>
	<42C3F179.7010405@softhome.net>	<1b98bebe05063008403161d6b@mail.gmail.com>	<42C43C9B.1040304@gmail.com>	<op.ss7ncmh22okkek@arcadia.hsd1.co.comcast.net>	<42C4F0B5.70806@gmail.com>	<op.ss8woamw2okkek@arcadia.hsd1.co.comcast.net>	<42C77F39.8010307@telus.net>
	<op.stbsvif12okkek@arcadia.hsd1.co.comcast.net>

body:
Muke Tever wrote:

> Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>> Capitalization can be a function of either the word or its context.
>> Wiktionary only needs to be concerned with the former.  It would seem
>> that the drafters of the Declaration of Independance took a little
>> liberty with their emphases,  and that's not unusual in preambles.  I
>> don't know why you abject to the lack of capitalization in "defence".
>
>
> 'sic' is not an objection.  It is the Latin word for 'so, thus'
> and is used to indicate that an unusual feature of a quoted text is
> present in the original--i.e. 'it was thus given'--and is not due to
> editorial oversight. The unusual feature of 'defence' is that it is the
> only noun in that preamble that is not capitalized--all the other ones
> are; the point being that the framers of the Constitution[1] were
> writing English where nouns are regularly capitalized. This is not a
> feature of emphasis, and was carried on through even mundane regions
> of subsequent text:
>
>      Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the
>      several States which may be included within this Union, according
>      to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding
>      to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to
>      Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed,
>      three fifths[sic] of all other Persons.
>
> http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article01/
>
> Current en.wiktionary practice _will_ require separate articles for
> [[number]] (modern practice) and [[Number]] (former practice), which
> I don't think is at all reasonable; redirecting from [[Number]] to
> [[number]] would be a thinkable alternative (and is what happens
> currently), but even the removal of these redirects has its advocates.
>
> If capitalization is as integral to spelling as the advocates of this
> recent move have been insisting, then to divorce [[number]] from
> [[Number]] is to rob us of our linguistic history.
>
> If the Bund f?r vereinfachte rechtschreibung [sic] were to have its way
> and la Germanophonie were to do away with the obligatory capitalization
> of nouns, what would de.wiktionary do with [[kind]] and [[Kind]]?  This
> is not a hypothetical situation, as this has already happened in English
> and the Scandinavian languages, and is something Wiktionary _has to
> document_, as 'all words in all languages' implies 'in all ages' as well.
>
>     *Muke!
> [1] The text quoted was not the Declaration of Independence, however
> topical it would have been to post it about now.

Yes the reference to the DoI was my error.

It is to be noted that the peculiar capitalization in the articles of
the Constitution does not generally extend to the amendments.  The
latest amendment to have any of these antiquated capitalization was the
12th and it went through Congress in 1803.  Deos the use of the word
"Citizens" in the 11th amendment mean anything different than the word
"citizens" in the 26th?  I don't know if there was any change in the
capitalizations in the 27th between the time it was introduced and the
time it was ratified.

I was looking for a scanned copy of the original Constitution but the
only one that I did find was not readable.  If you really want to be
accurate about 18th century texts, maybe we should be considering
support of the long "s".

Ec


body:
>Servien, at this point you have gone beyond even a distortion of
>reality to pure fantasy. Speech varieties cannot develop separately if
>they're spoken 4km apart from one another (an example I gave earlier
>in the thread), unless there's a huge geographical barrier between
>them.
Mark, do you know what you are doing? Do you know the Dutch expressions
"hoog van de toren blazen" and "een grote bek opzetten"? You can freely
translate them into "rydelling". That is what you do. You contribute a lot
of useful, constructive things, but yet you make yourself fall in disgrace
with mingling in anything, persisting in your own position and addressing
people hostilly. And the difference with Rydel is that he only does so in
things concerning Belarus and Belarusian (or however you want to spell it),
and you do so in all topics concerning languages. I must admit, however,
that as far as I know you never scolded people for nazi or stalinist.

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Webmessenger overal en altijd beschikbaar http://webmessenger.msn.com/


from_name: Александр Сигачёв

subject: [Wikitech-l] Interviki sorting

body:
We can display interwiki links ordered by language list in a MediaWiki
message. Thus within each project it will be possible to adjust any
uniform sorting: order by language names (latin names, then cyrillic,
then hieroglyph...) or order by language codes or have ahead a few
"major" languages.

And if this "MediaWiki:Interwikiorder" is empty then list will be
formed like now.

Will it be useful feature?

--
Alexander Sigachov


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] more active censorship

body:
On 7/3/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >From: "Nathan J. Yoder" <njyoder at energon.org>
> >
> > > Just read, don't edit.
> >
> >That misses the whole point, which is that it shouldn't have been
> >doing that in the first place as it's a bug.
>
> No, it's supposed to work that way.  It's doing exactly what it is intended
> to do.

And what, precisely, is it intended to do?

> >Obviously, I wouldn't
> >have ever hit edit if I *knew* it did that.
>
> Why is that "obvious"?  Why on earth would you hit the edit button when you
> were banned from editing?

Habit. Try blocking yourself for a week and see what happens, mate.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 24, Issue 22

body:
On 7/3/05, J.F. de Wolff <jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk> wrote:
> It seems Weyes has left. What a disgrace. We've never had such a diligent
> RC patroller, and he was more right than wrong in his crusade against
> excessive external links. That's another one gone after RickK. Why on earth
> do we fail the Wikipedians who do so much to protect our project from
> vandals, cranks and idiots?

We don't fail them as much as they simply burn out.

Before they burn out, they increasingly feel as if they are the lone
bulwark against the teeming hordes, and feel increasingly unsupported.
 But are we truly doing anything to them except not be as fanatical as
they?

-Matt


subject: [WikiEN-l] Personal attacks and low EQs

body:
On 7/2/05, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> Hypocrite is a bit more
> difficult -- how do you say nicely that an editor is applying one
> standard to himself and another to others.

I really should shut up at this point.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Jitse Niesen

subject: [Wikitech-l] TeX not working

body:
On 7/3/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> I have the following in my LocalSettings.php:
> [...]
> However, I get the same behaviour as if TeX was turned off
> ("<math>1+1=2<math>" in the wiki page).

I seem to remember that you have to create some directories by hand, I
think .../images/math and .../images/tmp. Also, make sure that these
directories are writable.

I managed to get it working under Debian, so it can be done.

Cheers,
Jitse


from_name: J.F. de Wolff

body:
It seems Weyes has left. What a disgrace. We've never had such a diligent
RC patroller, and he was more right than wrong in his crusade against
excessive external links. That's another one gone after RickK. Why on earth
do we fail the Wikipedians who do so much to protect our project from
vandals, cranks and idiots?

Jfdwolff

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.6/33 - Release Date: 28/06/2005


from_name: Michael Turley

body:
On 7/3/05, J.F. de Wolff <jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> It seems Weyes has left. What a disgrace. We've never had such a diligent
> RC patroller, and he was more right than wrong in his crusade against
> excessive external links. That's another one gone after RickK. Why on earth
> do we fail the Wikipedians who do so much to protect our project from
> vandals, cranks and idiots?
>
> Jfdwolff

I'm genuinely curious: in what way do you assign his absence to a
failure of ours?

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] TeX not working

body:
On Sun, Jul 03, 2005 at 08:00:01PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have the following in my LocalSettings.php:
>
> $wgUseTeX           = true;
> $wgMathPath         = "{$wgUploadPath}/math";
> $wgMathDirectory    = "{$wgUploadDirectory}/math";
> $wgTmpDirectory     = "{$wgUploadDirectory}/tmp";
> $wgTexvc            = "/c/wp/wiki/math/texvc";
>
> I have made sure that "/c/wp/wiki/math/texvc" is a valid executable.
> Also I have installed tetex-bin (which supposedly includes both latex
> and dvips) and imagemagick.
>
> However, I get the same behaviour as if TeX was turned off
> ("<math>1+1=2<math>" in the wiki page).

Have you checked http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Problems_with_texvc ?


from_name: Heinz

subject: [Wikitech-l] How to allow any kind of html within an extension?

body:
when using the <niwiki> tag, html still gets renderd.
eg <pre> tags get inserted.

How to allow any kind of html within an extension?

Heinz


from_name: Theresa Knott

subject: [WikiEN-l] re: Cassandra Wimbs

body:
On 7/3/05, BERNICEHAZEL at aol.com <BERNICEHAZEL at aol.com> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
>     I am a member of the NY Assn of Black Journaists. I may have to update my
> membership but I would like to share this with nyabg.org.
>
> Cassandra Wimbs

What do you want to share?

Theresa


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 03, 2005 at 08:00:01PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
>
>>I get the same behaviour as if TeX was turned off
>>("<math>1+1=2<math>" in the wiki page).
>
> Have you checked http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Problems_with_texvc ?

I didn't know that page existed, but now I've checked it and I didn't
really find it particularly helpful. I've installed all the things it
mentions.

I've tried running texvc on the command line:

> /c/wp/wiki> math/texvc '/c/wp/wiki/images/tmp' '/c/wp/wiki/images/math' '1+1=2' 'ISO-8859-1'
> C0cfae383362bc63d7ac429a5755fef051 + 1 = 2<mn>1</mn><mo>+</mo><mn>1</mn><mo>=</mo><mn>2</mn>-

It creates latex files in images/tmp but not the png files in images/math.

Any more ideas?

Thanks,
Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Timwi wrote:
>
>> However, I get the same behaviour as if TeX was turned off
>> ("<math>1+1=2<math>" in the wiki page).
>
> Parser cache or browser cache.

Is a parser cache enabled by default? If not, then nope. If yes, how do
I disable it?

Thanks,
Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

body:
Jitse Niesen wrote:
> On 7/3/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>>I have the following in my LocalSettings.php:
>>[...]
>>However, I get the same behaviour as if TeX was turned off
>>("<math>1+1=2<math>" in the wiki page).
>
> I seem to remember that you have to create some directories by hand, I
> think .../images/math and .../images/tmp. Also, make sure that these
> directories are writable.

All of the relevant directories exist and are writable.

> I managed to get it working under Debian, so it can be done.

I know, I've done it before too, but everytime I try I run into a new
problem.

Timwi


from_name: SJ

subject: [WikiEN-l] Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
On 7/3/05, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> I dont see how this comment about Checkers, from the Department of Fun  page,
> helps to build an encyclopedia:
>
> "Play checkers at Wikipedia and reduce your stress. No editing, patrolling,
> or anything else is allowed during this time!"

We could all do with a little less stress.  On the projects as well as off.

Tim: Presuming unified logins or better RC filters, hiding the effects
from the default RC would be easy.

SJ


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
Alphax wrote:
> Tim Starling wrote:
>> The problem with putting it on wikicities is mostly psychological. It's
>> on the wrong side of the virtual boundary which surrounds our homey
>> little region of cyberspace. I know some people *want* it outside the
>> boundary, I would ask them to be tolerant.
>>
>
>
> Alternatively, limit it to user subpages :)

I was addressing Danny's concerns, which were:

1) It clogs up RC
2) It's an insult to the serious nature of the project

Limiting it to user subpages probably wouldn't address either. Moving it
to a different wiki would at least address item 1.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Boris Lohnzweiger

body:
Most of the time I prefer to avoid those hot-tempered arguments but this time I'd like to share a few things that crossed my mind while reading the e-mails on the Dutch Low Saxon issue. I hope I can keep it reasonably short.

1. Of course, Wikipedias should try to unite as many people as possible and transcend minor variations in languages (e. g. British and American English share one Wikipedia).

2. Of course, the regional variants of Low Saxon form a dialect continuum, i. e. mutual intelligibility decreases with increasing distance.

3. Of course, in linguistics national borders don't equal language barriers.

4. However, in real-life political borders in Europe have throughout the centuries left clear marks on the way people speak and write. New words and idioms entered the dialects almost always via Standard German or Standard Dutch respectively. Whenever speakers of Low Saxon dialects write something down, they fall back on the languages they were taught writing in - that is either Dutch or German. Furthermore, all Low Saxon speakers in the Netherlands are confronted with Standard Dutch every single day while those living east of the border deal with Hochdeutsch day after day. Thus, speech varieties can and do develop separately if they're spoken 4 km apart from one another - even if that's only the size of a Wal-Mart parking lot in Arizona.

5. Of course, splitting nds into Dutch and German editions will not eliminate the difficulties a person from Pommeria will face in trying to understand the vernacular speech of someone from East Frisia. But it will reduce the overall spectrum the Low Saxon Wikipedia has to cover now.

When I first read the request for a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia I considered it a little far-fetched myself. But it's a matter of fact that we can't expect people from the Netherlands to adapt to the "German" lexicon and way of spelling used in nds if they want to contribute. Accordingly, any "Dutch" orthography and loan words like "pagina" or "kreeren" would simply appear strange and "foreign" to anyone living in Germany.

So I've come to the conclusion that while it might appear an inappropriate solution from a scholarly (or ivory tower?) perspective to set up a separate Wikipedia for Low Saxon in the Netherlands, it is a very workable solution from a real world perspective.

Boris

P. S. In German, the idiom goes "Auf einem hohen Ross reiten"

wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 03.07.05 20:41:12:

>Servien, at this point you have gone beyond even a distortion of
>reality to pure fantasy. Speech varieties cannot develop separately if
>they're spoken 4km apart from one another (an example I gave earlier
>in the thread), unless there's a huge geographical barrier between
>them.
Mark, do you know what you are doing? Do you know the Dutch expressions
"hoog van de toren blazen" and "een grote bek opzetten"? You can freely
translate them into "rydelling". That is what you do. You contribute a lot
of useful, constructive things, but yet you make yourself fall in disgrace
with mingling in anything, persisting in your own position and addressing
people hostilly. And the difference with Rydel is that he only does so in
things concerning Belarus and Belarusian (or however you want to spell it),
and you do so in all topics concerning languages. I must admit, however,
that as far as I know you never scolded people for nazi or stalinist.

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Webmessenger overal en altijd beschikbaar http://webmessenger.msn.com/

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________________
Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179


body:
Boris, thanks indeed for bothering to get this discussion on the right track
again. I hope we can quit these unpleasant discussions soon.

Wouter

>From: Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de>
>Most of the time I prefer to avoid those hot-tempered arguments but this
>time I'd like to share a few things that crossed my mind while reading the
>e-mails on the Dutch Low Saxon issue. I hope I can keep it reasonably
>short.
>
>1. Of course, Wikipedias should try to unite as many people as possible and
>transcend minor variations in languages (e. g. British and American English
>share one Wikipedia).
>
>2. Of course, the regional variants of Low Saxon form a dialect continuum,
>i. e. mutual intelligibility decreases with increasing distance.
>
>3. Of course, in linguistics national borders don't equal language
>barriers.
>
>4. However, in real-life political borders in Europe have throughout the
>centuries left clear marks on the way people speak and write. New words and
>idioms entered the dialects almost always via Standard German or Standard
>Dutch respectively. Whenever speakers of Low Saxon dialects write something
>down, they fall back on the languages they were taught writing in - that is
>either Dutch or German. Furthermore, all Low Saxon speakers in the
>Netherlands are confronted with Standard Dutch every single day while those
>living east of the border deal with Hochdeutsch day after day. Thus, speech
>varieties can and do develop separately if they're spoken 4 km apart from
>one another - even if that's only the size of a Wal-Mart parking lot in
>Arizona.
>
>5. Of course, splitting nds into Dutch and German editions will not
>eliminate the difficulties a person from Pommeria will face in trying to
>understand the vernacular speech of someone from East Frisia. But it will
>reduce the overall spectrum the Low Saxon Wikipedia has to cover now.
>
>When I first read the request for a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia I considered
>it a little far-fetched myself. But it's a matter of fact that we can't
>expect people from the Netherlands to adapt to the "German" lexicon and way
>of spelling used in nds if they want to contribute. Accordingly, any
>"Dutch" orthography and loan words like "pagina" or "kreeren" would simply
>appear strange and "foreign" to anyone living in Germany.
>
>So I've come to the conclusion that while it might appear an inappropriate
>solution from a scholarly (or ivory tower?) perspective to set up a
>separate Wikipedia for Low Saxon in the Netherlands, it is a very workable
>solution from a real world perspective.
>
>Boris
>
>P. S. In German, the idiom goes "Auf einem hohen Ross reiten"
>
>
>wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 03.07.05 20:41:12:
>
>
> >Servien, at this point you have gone beyond even a distortion of
> >reality to pure fantasy. Speech varieties cannot develop separately if
> >they're spoken 4km apart from one another (an example I gave earlier
> >in the thread), unless there's a huge geographical barrier between
> >them.
>Mark, do you know what you are doing? Do you know the Dutch expressions
>"hoog van de toren blazen" and "een grote bek opzetten"? You can freely
>translate them into "rydelling". That is what you do. You contribute a lot
>of useful, constructive things, but yet you make yourself fall in disgrace
>with mingling in anything, persisting in your own position and addressing
>people hostilly. And the difference with Rydel is that he only does so in
>things concerning Belarus and Belarusian (or however you want to spell it),
>and you do so in all topics concerning languages. I must admit, however,
>that as far as I know you never scolded people for nazi or stalinist.
>
>Wouter
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Webmessenger overal en altijd beschikbaar http://webmessenger.msn.com/
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
>Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
Altijd in contact met de kleinkinderen: MSN Messenger
http://messenger.msn.nl/


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimania 2005! Jimbo, Ward, RMS, and 300 of you...

body:
Video-capture would be great.  There will at least be audio capture,
naturally released under a free license.  I don't know who will have
video cameras, however...

SJ


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Roman Maurer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] commons: Image description on non-English wikipedias

body:
Alfio Puglisi pravi:

>>I recently noticed that Slovene common image descriptions have also
>>English text, eg.: http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slika:Evo7glyph.png
>>
>>Is this a bug or somebody's intention?
>
> It's intentional, see
>
> http://www.archivum.info/wikitech-l at wikimedia.org/2005-07/msg00023.html

Alfio, thank you for this link!  But this feature is nonsense, it's
language imperialism!  :-(

For example, I uploaded photograph Slovenska_lipa_srebrnik_averz.jpg in
order to use it on Slovene Wikipedia, while still making it possible for
others to use.  Now why do I have to see English description on
http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slika:Slovenska_lipa_srebrnik_averz.jpg ?

IMHO the only situation this feature would be useful is if there was
*no* description in local wikipedia language - this way English
description would be better than nothing.

I'll report this as a bug of MediaWiki.
--
	Pozdrav,
	  Roman


from_name: Folke Behrens

subject: [Wikitech-l] Patch for SearchState.stripWiki(String)

body:
Hi,

attached is patch for lucene-search/../SearchState.stripWiki()
For now this is just trivial optimization since I couldn't find any
test data for stripWiki. Right now I'm downloading en.wikipedia's cur
table.

Besides, what's the status? Is Lucene (Java) still the most promising
candidate for the full text search engine?

Regards,
Folke


body:
Roman Maurer pravi:

> I'll report this as a bug of MediaWiki.

Here it is: http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2689
--
	Pozdrav,
	  Roman


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
I donno, but your spot on about the nerds. The wikipedia makes me want
to nerd-bashing, like that rival frat in "revenge of the nerds"

Jack

On 7/3/05, Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/4/05, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> > I dont see how this comment about Checkers, from the Department of Fun  page,
> > helps to build an encyclopedia:
> >
> > "Play checkers at Wikipedia and reduce your stress. No editing, patrolling,
> > or anything else is allowed during this time!"
> >
> > This is not at all what the Department of Fun was intended to be. It was a
> > tool to help build an encyclopedia. It was never intended as a tool to keep
> > people from editing, as this statement clearly asserts.
>
> Clearly it has *increased* the stress level of some editors.
>
> Someone was talking about EQ, which I've since forgotten whether it
> stands for Emotion or Empathy. Something more San Francisco than
> Cambridge, anyway.
>
> I'm wondering whether the heat and hatred I see on Wikipedia is the
> result of a bunch of anal-retentive nerds being pushed together. In
> fact, some of the discussion and attitudes displayed here are exactly
> what you'd expect if you got a large group of propeller-heads together
> and forced them to co-operate and converse without the use of
> emoticons.
>
> Slashdot is a similar large project, explicitly aimed at the nerds of
> the world. Does anyone know how they relieve stress?
>
> --
> Peter in Canberra
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Fredrik Johansson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
On 7/3/05, Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:
> Slashdot is a similar large project, explicitly aimed at the nerds of
> the world. Does anyone know how they relieve stress?

Trolling.

-- Fredrik


from_name: Angela

body:
> >>I recently noticed that Slovene common image descriptions have also
> >>English text, eg.: http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slika:Evo7glyph.png
> >>
> >>Is this a bug or somebody's intention?

This is just because no one has yet added any text in Slovenian to the
image description page at
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Slovenska_lipa_srebrnik_averz.jpg

The commons is not an English language project, but a multi-lingual
one where you are encouraged to add content in all languages, making
the images easier to use across all projects.

Angela.


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] NWO

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

eddie sandoval wrote:
> Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info
>
> Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout
> all ages, World without end. Amen. Eph 3:21 ..ipsi gloria in ecclesia
> et in Christo Iesu in omnes generationes saeculi saeculorum amen.
> Saeculi = Ages. Saeculorum=Secular=World, Worldly, World w/o God.
> Godless New World Order...you know separation of church & state...No
> 10 Commandments. Latin puts the Noun before the Adjective...so Novus
> Ordo Seclorum means New World Order...It is Masonic for One World
> Government under Satan the All Seeing Pagan Eye ON the TOWER OF BABEL
> & the French Masons gave us the Worlds Largest Pagan Goddess the
> Statue of Liberty in the BIG APPLE & the next cities water tower
> reads Babylon New York...the Mystery Babylon mentioned in the Holy
> Bible (KJV).
>

I'm not sure what the current mailing list membership is, or how many
people read it via gmane, but I'm sure you will get a lot more interest
if you put this in article somewhere.

("Wait a little till the big Billy Goat Gruff comes. He's much bigger.")

- --
Alphax
OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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P5Uw/oLihSriAPakZjo/lhk=
=O43z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia is *already* written from a scientific
	POV

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Timwi wrote:
> Nathan J. Yoder wrote:
>
>>> Most?  I would say that the creationists are a significant minority; I
>>> don't believe that they're a majority, at least not yet.
>>
>>
>> About 40% believe it
>
>
>     # 45% believe that God created human beings pretty much in their
>       present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so
>     # 37% believe that human beings have developed over millions of
>       years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the
>       process.
>
> That's 82%, which I call "most".
>

Whoa whoa wait a minute before you start getting heavy-handed. The
creationism which is possibly being called "not-mainstream-science" is
/literal/ creationism - the "God made the world and everything in it in
7 days and the world is < 10,000 years old" type of creationism, the 45%
figure. The 37% can be grouped into "mainstream scientific theory",
which I assume would account for at least 15% of the other 18% - giving
a total of 52%, which (unless I can't count) is *more* than 45% by, oh,
7% or so. The literal creationists are a minority, albeit a significant
minority, but a minority nonetheless.

>     When asked by name whether they believe in or lean more towards
>     the "theory of creationism" or the "theory of evolution", 57%
>     indicated creationism, 33% indicated evolution, and 10%
>     responded "not sure."
>
> Again, 57% I call "most".
>

Ah, but which form of creationism? Literal or otherwise?

>> I should also note I love timwi's qualifier of "most" which isn't
>> based on actual statistics
>
>
> It is. See above.
>

I find the interpretation of these statistics disturbing.

>> and is just a blatant attempt at America bashing
>
>
> No less blatant than your attempts at administrator bashing ;-).
>

This is the ENGLISH Wikipedia, not the Yankee Wikipedia.

Your survey proves nothing about fact. Depending on how it was
conducted, it may or may not indicate something about the opinions of
the survey group, at the time the survey was carried out.

- --
Alphax
OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Roman Maurer wrote:

>Alfio Puglisi pravi:
>
>>>I recently noticed that Slovene common image descriptions have also
>>>English text, eg.: http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slika:Evo7glyph.png
>>>
>>>Is this a bug or somebody's intention?
>>
>> It's intentional, see
>>
>> http://www.archivum.info/wikitech-l at wikimedia.org/2005-07/msg00023.html
>
>Alfio, thank you for this link!  But this feature is nonsense, it's
>language imperialism!  :-(

It isn't. It was actually a highly requested feature, because often images
are included from commons and until ow one had to click an additional link
to know if the image was public domain or GFDL or whatever.

If the description is English-only, it's just because someone wrote it in
English and not in Slovenian or some other language. Translations on the
commons page are welcome.

Now that I think about it, license templates like {{GFDL}} should have
some way of specifying the language, because they always appear in English
on the commons wiki and will appear in English as well on local
description pages. Kate's code probably takes commons' page HTML code
instead of the wikicode (otherwise templates wouldn't work), so it's not
easy to change this.

Alfio


subject: [WikiEN-l] Read what the homeopaths are writing

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:
> Yes, I see. I suppose that's a fairly typical
> introduction to homeopathy. It sounds sort of
> plausible and somewhat interesting. Here's a
> sample pro-homeopathy article that starts like
> this:
>
> http://www.betterhealthchannel.com.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Homeopathy?OpenDocument
>
> "Homoeopathic medicine deliberately mimics or provokes the symptoms of a
> patient's disease to strengthen the body's ability to heal itself."
>

Ah! So by setting fire to myself, I can heal my burns? Or by amputing a
limb, it will cause another one to grow back? Wonderful!

> Sounds plausible but read a bit further down
> and see the actual basis of the method:
>
> "Modern homoeopathy was founded in the 18th Century by a German physician,
> Dr Samuel Hahnemann. He believed that:
>
> * Disease stemmed from a disturbance to the energy field of the body,
> which he called the 'vital force'.
>
> * The best cure could be achieved by using 'energised' medicine.
>
> * As the size of the dose decreased, the potency of the substance increased."
>

Wow... so taking no cocaine at all should get me infinitely high! I
don't want some!

> Anyone familiar with science or medicine should
> be raising eyebrows at this point - but the best
> is yet to come.
>

Science? We have no need of science when not taking drugs and
self-mutilating will cure all our ills!

> "These medicines then undergo a progressive series of dilutions, which
> includes shaking the bottle between each dilution.
> ...
> After the twelfth dilution, the homoeopathic medicine goes beyond what is
> called 'Avogadro's limit' and there is no discernible trace of the
> original substance left in the medicine."
>

Um, no, that depends how much you are diluting it. Of course, leaving
the lid off while shaking will greatly speed up the process of dilution...

> Note that this is from a *pro-homeopathy* article.
> They freely admit that the purported medicine is
> completely diluted out of the solution. They claim
> that it works anyway:
>
> "Although conventional scientific methods cannot explain how they work,
> many clinical trials have found homoeopathic medicines to be effective in
> treating a range of disorders."
>

Like [[Hyperchondria]]? Um... I think that's how it's spelt... hmm...

> Science can indeed not explain how something like
> that would work. If someone did prove it to work
> it would be a huge development in physics, chemistry
> and medicine. A Nobel prize would be guaranteed.
>

Yes, the pharmicutical companies are so horrified by the fact that
people won't ever need to take drugs again...

> But it hasn't been proven to work, despite their
> claim to the contrary. In *properly conducted*
> clinical trials it fails every time. But in studies
> conducted by homeopaths it always seems to work
> - and how could it fail to work with these kinds
> of criteria:
>
> "Sometimes, symptoms get worse before they get better. This may be a sign
> that the medicine is working, and that the body is strengthening its
> efforts to fight the disease..."
>

They have learnt the fine game of Calvinball, eh? So have we :)

> So, if you get better it's working and if you get
> worse, well, it's probably working anyhow.
>

In other news, hell has frozen over.

> And look at these homeopaths' attitude to boring
> old conventional medicine:
>
> "According to the homoeopathic philosophy, conventional drugs that
> suppress symptoms are only driving the disease deeper into the body."
>

Really? I'd like to see them find where it has gone.

> Of course they have the requisite disclaimers about
> consulting with your regular doctor but they're still
> giving out harmful medical advice.
>

"Yes, the multinational pharmicutical companies will definately stop
price gouging once a few thousand children die because the medicines are
too expensive..."

> But don't take my word for it. Read this homeopathy
> page for yourself (it's short) and then tell me if
> there's still doubt in your mind as to the pseudoscientific
> nature of the discipline and whether you think it is
> reasonable for an encyclop?dia to entertain such doubts
> in its category system.
>

Argh my eyes...

- --
Alphax
OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCx/oF/RxM5Ph0xhMRAy1BAJ9eXo3QtxBCpnCky71Tlie1Va+tXwCgrNUP
vPxn6vfADNZgwgTESH1PVtY=
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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

references:
<da9cjv$voc$1@sea.gmane.org> <42C8421B.2060807@pobox.com>
	<da9kq6$4l4$2@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> Timwi wrote:
>>> However, I get the same behaviour as if TeX was turned off
>>> ("<math>1+1=2<math>" in the wiki page).
>>
>>
>> Parser cache or browser cache.
>
>
> Is a parser cache enabled by default? If not, then nope. If yes, how do
> I disable it?

Yes, it's on by default since 1.4.

You should not generally disable the parser cache. Rather, as a site
administrator it's your responsibility to ensure that your configuration
is correct. If you've changed the software configuration in a basic way
(such as enabling an extension which pages were already trying to use),
then to clear cached parse pages you probably want to do one of the
following:

* Edit the affected pages. (Do a preview for a quick test.)
* Use ?action=purge on the affected pages.
* Set $wgCacheEpoch to the current timestamp to invalidate all previous
  cached renderings.
* Run 'DELETE FROM objectcache' if using default table-based cache.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Folke Behrens wrote:
> attached is patch for lucene-search/../SearchState.stripWiki()
> For now this is just trivial optimization since I couldn't find any
> test data for stripWiki. Right now I'm downloading en.wikipedia's cur
> table.
>
> Besides, what's the status? Is Lucene (Java) still the most promising
> candidate for the full text search engine?

We're using the C# version (in /cvsroot/wikipedia/mwsearch).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon .. Node you are wrong just acceptit

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Servien, at this point you have gone beyond even a distortion of
>reality to pure fantasy.
>
Node a couple of native speakers are telling you constantly you are
wrong. And you who had never heard of the dialects before this
discussion is all of a sudden accusing native speakers of
fantasizing???????? You are going way to far. First me, than Wouter and
now Servien are telling you you are wrong. Why can't you just accept the
fact that you are wrong and that one person cannot know about every
language in the world. There is a reason people specialize you know.

<skipped rest of nonsense>

Walter/Waerth


subject: [Wikitech-l] Diff?rence de recherche Wikimedia 1.3.13 et 1.4.5

body:
Philippe Roth wrote:
> Cher Brion,
>
> Un grand merci pour ta r?ponse qui a r?solu notre probl?me.
> Ouf...
>
> Mais j'aimerais savoir si cette fonction est document?e ? quelque
> part, car je n'avais pas r?ussi ? trouver cela sur le web et surtout
> sur le site MediaWiki...

Il s'agit d'un bougue.

> En fait, y a-t-il un descriptif des diff?rences fondamentales entre
> les versions 1.3.x et 1.4.x?

RELEASE-NOTES

> Enfin, un autre petit probl?me:
> j'ai un utilisateur du nom de "zuzu".
> Dans la version 1.3.13, si je tape ce nom, j'ai une page indiquant: Utilisateur
> Zuzu 100% (*****)
> Dans la version 1.4.5, si je tape ce nom, j'ai la liste des pages cr??es par l'utilisateur mais aussi la page de l'utilisateur.
> Comment faire pour avoir une r?ponse identique ? la version 1.3.13?

"Fuzzy search" a ?t? supprim?, il n'existe plus.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Raphael Wiegand

body:
Angela schrieb:

>The commons is not an English language project, but a multi-lingual
>one where you are encouraged to add content in all languages, making
>the images easier to use across all projects.
>
>
Well, that's right, but the different Wikipedias aren't... I wondered
whether it was possible to show for examle in de.wikipedia only the
image descriptions in german language, if available, and on en: only the
english desrciptions... I think technically it should be possible; if
every image description contained those templates ({{English}},
{{Deutsch}}, {{Francais}} etc) it should be more or less easy to
"extract" the english informations and show them on en: and no other
informations, right?... (sorry for my lousy english but its nearly
1a.m.*yawn*)

n8, rdb


from_name: Jtkiefer

body:
Matt Brown wrote:

>We don't fail them as much as they simply burn out.
>
>Before they burn out, they increasingly feel as if they are the lone
>bulwark against the teeming hordes, and feel increasingly unsupported.
> But are we truly doing anything to them except not be as fanatical as
>they?
>
>-Matt
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
    The unfortunate reality is that eventually  all wikipedia editors
eventually burn out and the most well dedicated and most well noticed
(dedication and prominance may or may not be related) seem to burn out
faster because they put so much time and energy into wikipedia.

-Jtkiefer


from_name: A. Nony Mouse

subject: [WikiEN-l] SHOWCASING Abuses of Admin Power

body:
>Sorry, I appear to have forgotten to send this reply to Anonymouse to
>the actual mailing list, and instead sent it to Anonymouse alone. I
>note that I haven't received a reply to it in the 16 hours since I
>sent it to him or her.

Yeah, it's not like it's the biggest holiday weekend of the summer or
anything.

Wait. It's the 4th of July weekend? WHOOPS!

>First off, who is Marmot? Who is Kurita77? I don't know. I'm the list
>administrator; I make sure it is used appropriately. I'm not here to
>make judgments about the actions of people on Wikipedia; I'm here to
>facilitate meaningful and constructive discussion.

Marmot is a user wrongfully banned from Wikipedia for the "crime" of
dissenting and pointing out when Admins were abusing their powers.

Kurita77 I know you knew about; he was a recent new user who came to this
list to ask why someone had PERMANENTLY BLOCKED his account from Wikipedia,
and instead of treating him respectfully the Admins around here treated him
like complete crap, made fun of him, sent him nasty emails laced with racial
slurs, and sat around slapping each other on the back congratulating
themselves for driving him into enough anger that he started swearing, at
which point the admins on THIS LIST used that as an excuse to block him
(oops, sorry, "moderating" him which means you'll just let all his emails
sit and expire without even bothering to read them) for getting upset at
wrongfully being blocked.

>You were incredibly rude. As a result, you were moderated, but not
>banned. You are still free to send emails to the list, and, like I
>said, if they are civil then they will fairly quickly reach the list.

Let's test that shall we? Hmm?

>It's not what you say
>that's important to me, it's how you say it.

We'll see.

>You claim that your alleged personal attacks were the truth. So you're
>saying it's the absolute truth that one Wikipedian is a fat hag who
>constantly fellates another Wikipedian? I'm sorry, but that is so out
>of line that I do not accept any arguments of censorship or freedom of
>speech or anything like that as persuasive. If you have a point to
>make, it is more than possible to make it without personally attacking
>people in that manner.

If you think those were over the line, fine.
I stand by my categorization of Ambi as being Wikipedia's version of the Red
Queen. Her constant agitation for harsher and harsher punishments by ArbCom,
combined with her absolute refusal to show ANY effort to communicate with
the users in question, is the equivalent of the Queen sitting around
screaming "Orf Wiv 'Is 'Ead" at anything that got near her.

In general, the Ambi/Gerard theory of Wikipedia has sucked. Instead of a
Wikipedia based on encouraging civil discourse and where temporary blocks
are for the purpose of encouraging users to behave within policy (and NEVER
supposed to be punitive) we have admins like Bauder, Gerard, Ambi, Sidaway,
and others I can name running around like the Wikipedian Inquisition.

They make up new policy as they go, they enforce things that aren't in
policy, they REFUSE to enforce policy against each other or against their
"favorite" users.

This needs to stop. But anytime it gets brought up, they instantly go off
the deep end looking for any reason, no matter how minor, to block accounts
and attack those who are calling their behavior into question.

>As for your worries of people hunting you down and blocking you on
>Wikipedia for what is said here, you shouldn't worry about that. As
>far as I am concerned, although WikiEN-l is expressly *about*
>Wikipedia, it is entirely separate *from* Wikipedia, and anything
>which goes on one should not have a bearing on the user's
>participation in the other.

Unfortunately, your IDEAL of how they should act and the REALITY of how they
act are two completely different things.

The fact remains that if they knew my Wikipedia account name, they wouldn't
hesitate for a nanosecond to slap a block on it.

>In this way, a user who gets blocked on
>Wikipedia proper is not automatically banned from the Mailing List,
>and vice-versa.

No, but they quickly get ignored or derided for daring to come here for
redress of the regular abuses of power we see from Wikipedian admins.

Rather than this place being where new users who have been bitten by
overzealous, power-hungry admins can come to get redress it's become a place
where the users come so that the rest of the admins can have a good laugh at
their expense.

>Having said that, the fact that the mailing list is
>independent means that in *extreme* cases action must be taken in
>order to stop spam, abuse or inane repetition. In my view, yours is
>the second most extreme case I have seen in the last year of being the
>administrator of this mailing list. However, since that last case I
>have taken a more liberal approach and instead moderated you instead
>of banning you from subscribing to the mailing list outright. This is
>because I see considerable value in what you say, and want you to help
>thresh out the discussion, just not without abusively kicking other
>people in the guts in the process.

Right. Like I said, we'll see if this goes through or not.

>So if you would please get over the accusations of thuggery and
>censorship on my part, and back on topic in a civil manner, hopefully
>we can actually get somewhere and maybe even lift the veil of
>moderation.

I'm giving you a chance to behave in good faith here. We'll see what
happens. So far I have four cases of abuse by Wikipedia admins, and ZERO
indication that they - especially as 90% of your list adminship are also
Wikipedia admins - are inclined to act in good faith.

A. Nony Mouse

_________________________________________________________________
Upgrade to Messenger 7.0 - more fun features, still totally FREE!
http://messenger.msn.co.uk


from_name: Muke Tever

references:
<42C33447.50301@pobox.com>
	<9a878c4405062923081aa5dea@mail.gmail.com>
	<42C3A302.20205@pobox.com> <42C3C7A2.5090006@softhome.net>
	<42C3CBF0.1080401@yahoo.it> <42C3F179.7010405@softhome.net>
	<1b98bebe05063008403161d6b@mail.gmail.com>
	<42C43C9B.1040304@gmail.com>
	<op.ss7ncmh22okkek@arcadia.hsd1.co.comcast.net>
	<42C4F0B5.70806@gmail.com>
	<op.ss8woamw2okkek@arcadia.hsd1.co.comcast.net>
	<42C77F39.8010307@telus.net>
	<op.stbsvif12okkek@arcadia.hsd1.co.comcast.net>
	<42C8ABB3.9070407@telus.net>

body:
Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> It is to be noted that the peculiar capitalization in the articles of
> the Constitution does not generally extend to the amendments.  The
> latest amendment to have any of these antiquated capitalization was the
> 12th and it went through Congress in 1803.  Deos the use of the word
> "Citizens" in the 11th amendment mean anything different than the word
> "citizens" in the 26th?

Neither is the use of any German word that is capitalized in standard
texts changed in those texts that do not employ that language's unusual
capitalization standards.  It is decorative, an aid to reading, and
little more.

> I was looking for a scanned copy of the original Constitution but the
> only one that I did find was not readable.  If you really want to be
> accurate about 18th century texts, maybe we should be considering
> support of the long "s".

Yes, I have been using long ?, whenever it occurs, in the texts I have
been citing when giving quotations for la.wiktionary, e.g. under
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bisemutum  -- it comes up so often that
I memorized the keyboard shortcut for it some time ago (it is 'alt-0383').

But then, I often use ? in handwriting, so perhaps I'm biased.

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Blocked yet AGAIN!

body:
Walter van Kalken a ?crit:
 >
 >> Walter, perhaps it sounds rude, but else do you want? There will
 >> surely be something serious (a vandal bot with open proxies, for
 >> instance), otherwise they will not take such a rigorous step. And to
 >> be quite frank: I prefer excluding some good-willing people from
 >> editing Wikipedia to letting a maniacal nerd ravage the whole project.
 >> I quite clearly remember such an attack on li:, some time ago.
 >>
 > Yes Wouter I am extremely offended and disappointed by your answer and
 > also by the lack of reactions by boardmembers such as Anthere, Angela
 > and Jimbo. It is very simple it is the fourth time this is happening to
 > me. And I am sick and tired of it especially because everybody is
 > ignorong the problem. Because they have selfish reasons like yours: "I
 > can edit wikipedia why should I care about others?" How about me putting
 > a vandalwarning on your account in nl.wikipedia Wouter? Wouldn't you be
 > offended? Yes you would. And it is exactly this what I read when I try
 > to create a new account in a wiki. And ironically enough I am creating
 > an account to get rid of vandalism.

*Exceptionnally*, I was away from my computer for 48 hours. I took a
week end.
I think anyone deserve a *real* week end from time to time :-)

Ant


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: IRC and freenode

body:
Note that I suggested we indeed do this and Angela gave that answer.
However, Jimbo noted that part of the money available to the Foundation
did not come to donators money, but had no string attached, so could
very well be used for the goal.

Still, I think we did not persued the discussion, probably aspired in
everyday issues.

Ant

Angela a ?crit:
> On 7/2/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Then why doesn't Wikimedia just donate to Freenode? :-p
>
>
> Because our donors have been given the impression the money was going
> towards Wikimedia's own servers and not to third parties. If this is
> going to be done in future, the "how we spend the money" page needs to
> be updated to reflect that.
>
> Freenode's fundraising drive has now finished successfully by the way.
>
> Angela.


from_name: Nathan J. Yoder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Personal attacks and low EQs

body:
> Calling
> somebody _a_ something implies that this person engages in this
> behaviour
> regularly, while saying "your behaviour here is something" does
> criticise only
> a behaviour at a certain place and time.

That depends on the context, you shouldn't read implications outside
of context.

> Not to mention the fact that it is impossible to say the
> latter about
> any Wikipedian whom one does not personally know, and very well, too
> - because
> I doubt that there are any people who spend so much time on WP that
> their
> behaviour here, even if they were constantly lying (or doing anything
> else) on
> WP, would constitute most of _all_ behaviour they ever exhibit.

This is all the more reason to NOT assume that they're implying that
they're referring to that person lying all the time.  If the person
making the accusation doesn't know them, then if anything the
implication is that they're referring to being a liar just for that
incident.

Really, this is all just splitting hairs for the sake of protecting
thin skinned people.  This shouldn't become PCpedia, catering towards
people who are easily offended and read implications where there are
none is silly.

----------------------------------------------
Nathan J. Yoder
http://www.gummibears.nu/
http://www.gummibears.nu/files/njyoder_pgp.key
----------------------------------------------


body:
guaka at no-log.org wrote:

>>Servien, at this point you have gone beyond even a distortion of
>>reality to pure fantasy. Speech varieties cannot develop separately if
>>they're spoken 4km apart from one another (an example I gave earlier
>>in the thread), unless there's a huge geographical barrier between
>>them.
>>
>>
>
>Mark, het wordt nu wel erg irritant en ik denk dat je het toch aan mensen over moet
>laten die wel weten waar ze het over hebben.
>
>Misschien dat deze discussie gewoon in het Nederlands en nds (en een klein beetje
>Duits) moet worden gevoerd.
>
>
Ja Guaka die Node EU zegt alle talen te spreken dus dan begrijpt ie dit
ook wel. Anyway kan je het NDS-NL ook steunen  met je stem?

Bedankt Walter/Waerth

ps sorry to all other wikipedians but we are testing really speaks all
these languages he claims he knows something about.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Thoughts on the process of requesting adminship

body:
> As the community size becomes large the probability of a unanimous
> decision becomes infinitesimal and the ability of one member to block
> a decision becomes a target for disruption.

That's very true, which is why it seems silly to call it a 'consensus'
rather than a super majority.  There should be official policy
somewhere outlining exactly what percentage of votes is needed to pass
a given thing (e.g. "four-fifths majority is required to appoint an
admin").

> For many of our votes in the community, Wikipedia uses a two stage
> near-consensus process which is highly effective.  For example, VFD:
> Members of the community state both their 'vote' and their position
> and have an ability to discuss their votes and change their votes in
> an open environment that is free of true coercion.

What about cases where people are being recruited to vote on something
like that?  I've seen at least one VfD where people were recruited
from another source of like-minded people to skew the vote.  I'm not
sure there is something that can be done about that without potential
for abuse, but it's a shady thing to do.

>  Once the vote is
> complete, a trusted and experienced member of the community studies
> the votes and looks for a highly substantial majority one way or
> another, attempts to exclude votes which were probably made in bad
> faith or are really voting about something unrelated to the issue. If
> this person fails to find a clear consensus they take the action which
> is the least harming and most reversible.

So a simple majority on VfD is not enough?  As I explained above,
there's a problem with POV pushers grouping together and recruiting to
vote.  The problem is that often POV pushers are willing to put more
effort into getting their way than the non-POV pushers, thus while you
will get disinterested "third party" votes, they can easily become
overwhelmed since your average person doesn't care as much to vote as
your POV pusher does.

----------------------------------------------
Nathan J. Yoder
http://www.gummibears.nu/
http://www.gummibears.nu/files/njyoder_pgp.key
----------------------------------------------


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

references:
<da9cjv$voc$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20050703194906.GA3749@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>
	<da9kp8$4l4$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Sun, Jul 03, 2005 at 10:19:23PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> >On Sun, Jul 03, 2005 at 08:00:01PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
> >
> >>I get the same behaviour as if TeX was turned off
> >>("<math>1+1=2<math>" in the wiki page).
> >
> >Have you checked http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Problems_with_texvc ?
>
> I didn't know that page existed, but now I've checked it and I didn't
> really find it particularly helpful. I've installed all the things it
> mentions.
>
> I've tried running texvc on the command line:
>
> >/c/wp/wiki> math/texvc '/c/wp/wiki/images/tmp' '/c/wp/wiki/images/math'
> >'1+1=2' 'ISO-8859-1'
> >C0cfae383362bc63d7ac429a5755fef051 + 1 =
> >2<mn>1</mn><mo>+</mo><mn>1</mn><mo>=</mo><mn>2</mn>-
>
> It creates latex files in images/tmp but not the png files in images/math.
>
> Any more ideas?

Comment out the Sys.remove's (by (* comment *) ) in render.ml, recompile,
and check exactly when it breaks.
Are .dvi created ? What about .ps ?

The fragment to comment out:

    let unlink_all () =
      begin
(*
        Sys.remove (tmpprefix ^ ".dvi");
        Sys.remove (tmpprefix ^ ".aux");
        Sys.remove (tmpprefix ^ ".log");
        Sys.remove (tmpprefix ^ ".tex");
        Sys.remove (tmpprefix ^ ".ps");
*)
      end in


subject: [WikiEN-l] Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
is "trolling" identical to saying things you dislike? I think it is
obvious some people intentionally annoy others on the wiki, as well as
the mailing list, but this certainly didn't seem like an example of
that to me. This "troll" word is an ugly slur, an intellectually
dishonest powerword. Call a spade a spade.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 7/3/05, Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/3/05, Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Slashdot is a similar large project, explicitly aimed at the nerds of
> > the world. Does anyone know how they relieve stress?
>
> Trolling.
>
> -- Fredrik
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Uhh... hello? That's what an opinion is. It means you disagree with
somebody. Obviously you haven't read much of anything I've written.

Mark

On 04/07/05, Wouter Steenbeek <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> > > Most of the time I prefer to avoid those hot-tempered arguments but this
> >time I'd like to share a few things that crossed my mind while reading the
> >e-mails on the Dutch Low Saxon issue. I hope I can keep it reasonably
> >short.
> > >
> > > 1. Of course, Wikipedias should try to unite as many people as possible
> >and transcend minor variations in languages (e. g. British and American
> >English share one Wikipedia).
> > >
> > > 2. Of course, the regional variants of Low Saxon form a dialect
> >continuum, i. e. mutual intelligibility decreases with increasing distance.
> > >
> > > 3. Of course, in linguistics national borders don't equal language
> >barriers.
> > >
> > > 4. However, in real-life political borders in Europe have throughout the
> >centuries left clear marks on the way people speak and write. New words and
> >idioms entered the dialects almost always via Standard German or Standard
> >Dutch respectively. Whenever speakers of Low Saxon dialects write something
> >down, they fall back on the languages they were taught writing in - that is
> >either Dutch or German. Furthermore, all Low Saxon speakers in the
> >Netherlands are confronted with Standard Dutch every single day while those
> >living east of the border deal with Hochdeutsch day after day. Thus, speech
> >varieties can and do develop separately if they're spoken 4 km apart from
> >one another - even if that's only the size of a Wal-Mart parking lot in
> >Arizona.
> > >
> > > 5. Of course, splitting nds into Dutch and German editions will not
> >eliminate the difficulties a person from Pommeria will face in trying to
> >understand the vernacular speech of someone from East Frisia. But it will
> >reduce the overall spectrum the Low Saxon Wikipedia has to cover now.
> > >
> > > When I first read the request for a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia I
> >considered it a little far-fetched myself. But it's a matter of fact that
> >we can't expect people from the Netherlands to adapt to the "German"
> >lexicon and way of spelling used in nds if they want to contribute.
> >Accordingly, any "Dutch" orthography and loan words like "pagina" or
> >"kreeren" would simply appear strange and "foreign" to anyone living in
> >Germany.
> > >
> > > So I've come to the conclusion that while it might appear an
> >inappropriate solution from a scholarly (or ivory tower?) perspective to
> >set up a separate Wikipedia for Low Saxon in the Netherlands, it is a very
> >workable solution from a real world perspective.
> >
> >I really do not think that this is the solution.
>
> Will you quit? You really don't realise this is an attempt to quit this
> pointless discussion? Boris (was it him? I forgot) tried to come up with a
> consesnus and you are - again - going counter to him.
>
> Wouter
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Altijd in contact met de kleinkinderen: MSN Messenger
> http://messenger.msn.nl/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Licensing information transcluded from the Commons

body:
On 03/07/05, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Kate Turner has added code to MediaWiki to load licensing information
> directly from the Commons when viewing a local image description page.

This is, probably, an improvement, but an imperfect solution - as
pointed out at http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2689, it
places the commons text directly *before* any locally-entered text
with no visual separation (sub-headers would be nice).

And as I point out there, it makes more urgent the need to work out
how to make the Commons truly language-independent: neither
descriptions only in English, nor a huge list of translations, are
really practicable for including on other projects like this.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
On 03/07/05, Folke Behrens <messias at gmail.com> wrote:
> attached is patch for lucene-search/../SearchState.stripWiki()

NB: this list is configured to strip [most] attachments; the
recommended place for uploading patches is at the bugzilla tracker:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org (just open a new bug if there isn't a
relevant one already).

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Kate

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Licensing information transcluded from the Commons

body:
Rowan Collins wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> On 03/07/05, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
>> load licensing information
>> directly from the Commons when viewing a local image description page.

> This is, probably, an improvement, but an imperfect solution - as
> pointed out at http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2689, it
> places the commons text directly *before* any locally-entered text
> with no visual separation (sub-headers would be nice).

this is fixed now.  MediaWiki:Shareddescriptionfollows is displayed before
the commons text.

> And as I point out there, it makes more urgent the need to work out
> how to make the Commons truly language-independent: neither
> descriptions only in English, nor a huge list of translations, are
> really practicable for including on other projects like this.

this is a separate bug. :)

i think the best way to solve both of these is to first implement localised
image description pages on Commons itself (e.g. "Image:An_image.jpeg/de")
based on user's selected interface language, then implement a general URL
parameter "&uselang=de" (or whatever) which can be used to change the
language of the interface without needing to log in.  we can then simply
fetch
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Foo.jpeg&action=render&uselang=de
and display it.

for cases where a user would prefer either de or fr over English, this won't
work,  but i think the interface language mechanism has to be improved
before that can be solved here.

if no-one has any other suggestions i may have a look at doing this...

kate.


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] And this is why personal attacks need to be defined

body:
On 7/3/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Oh I should add that I didn't actually know this second block was in
> > place until I tried editing my own user page and it was auto-reset, so
> > yeah, it's kind of hard to argue it's not a bug.
>
>
> Then go and do the correct thing, and make a request on bugzilla.
> Stop giving us earache.

This has been reported many times before, and discussed here on this
very list. Judging by recent responses, it is NOT seen as a bug, by
some people. In fact it has been stated that it is operating exactly
as intended.

If it is operating as intended, then where in Wikipedia policy is this
stated? I think you could search and search and never find it. In fact
you would find exactly the opposite - that blocks are for specific
periods of time.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Alex Regh

subject: [WikiEN-l] Personal attacks and low EQs

body:
Hi!

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:29:54 +1000, Jerome Jamnicky wrote:

>> Calling someone a hypocrite IS criticizing their behavior.  Having to
>> write out "your behavior is hypocritical" in place of "you are a
>> hypocrite" is just tedious and redundant.
>
>It's useful because Wikipedia is not written by Vulcans.  The emotional
>impact of differently-worded but logically equivalent statements is
>different, and this affects how constructive the discussion is.

No, actually, those two statements are not "logically equivalent". Calling
somebody _a_ something implies that this person engages in this behaviour
regularly, while saying "your behaviour here is something" does criticise only
a behaviour at a certain place and time.

"You lied about X" is therefore far less (potentially) insulting than "you are
a liar". Not to mention the fact that it is impossible to say the latter about
any Wikipedian whom one does not personally know, and very well, too - because
I doubt that there are any people who spend so much time on WP that their
behaviour here, even if they were constantly lying (or doing anything else) on
WP, would constitute most of _all_ behaviour they ever exhibit.

Alex
(who wanted to keep out of the debate, but that had to be said)
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
        --- Jim Steinman ---

Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage

body:
>
>But I get the idea that you're saying that you think that this
>discussion should be in Dutch and Low Saxon, at least in the second
>sentence.
>
>I honestly have to disagree with this. It should either be in any
>language, as policy says, or in Low Saxon exclusively. There's no
>reason why it should be in Dutch *and* Low Saxon.
>
>---
>
>Obviously, Walter's message was not directed at me, but I can
>understand it better than Kasper's.
>
You really really really really do not get it do you??????? No one has
argued for your POV. You are the only one arguing it! We have had a
couple of  native speakers argue against you. A couples of others have
argued against you and you still go on. Please read what everybody has
said. Forgot what stupid braindead me said. Look at the arguments of others.

Walter/Waerth


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Nathan J. Yoder (njyoder at energon.org) [050704 06:09]:

> > Obviously there was no consensus that these editors were trustworthy;
> > someone is not "trustworthy" simply because you believe them to be so.  And
> > consensus is still an important part of the Wikipedia process.

> How is a majority vote NOT consensus?

The idea is that an overwhelming majority may *indicate* consensus. For
RFA, that's taken to mean >80%; 75-80% is at bureaucrat discretion.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
On 7/4/05, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> I dont see how this comment about Checkers, from the Department of Fun  page,
> helps to build an encyclopedia:
>
> "Play checkers at Wikipedia and reduce your stress. No editing, patrolling,
> or anything else is allowed during this time!"
>
> This is not at all what the Department of Fun was intended to be. It was a
> tool to help build an encyclopedia. It was never intended as a tool to keep
> people from editing, as this statement clearly asserts.

Clearly it has *increased* the stress level of some editors.

Someone was talking about EQ, which I've since forgotten whether it
stands for Emotion or Empathy. Something more San Francisco than
Cambridge, anyway.

I'm wondering whether the heat and hatred I see on Wikipedia is the
result of a bunch of anal-retentive nerds being pushed together. In
fact, some of the discussion and attitudes displayed here are exactly
what you'd expect if you got a large group of propeller-heads together
and forced them to co-operate and converse without the use of
emoticons.

Slashdot is a similar large project, explicitly aimed at the nerds of
the world. Does anyone know how they relieve stress?

--
Peter in Canberra


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: more active censorship

body:
Nathan J. Yoder (njyoder at energon.org) [050704 06:10]:

> I also notice that no one has made an argument for why it should work
> that way, since it's clearly only meant to thwart block evasion (which
> this is not a case of).

wikien-l isn't a development list. Have you tried reporting it as a bug
yet? Or perhaps discussing it on mediawiki-l (the list for the software)
would be appropriate first.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: more active censorship

body:
On 7/4/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Nathan J. Yoder (njyoder at energon.org) [050704 06:10]:
>
> > I also notice that no one has made an argument for why it should work
> > that way, since it's clearly only meant to thwart block evasion (which
> > this is not a case of).
>
>
> wikien-l isn't a development list. Have you tried reporting it as a bug
> yet? Or perhaps discussing it on mediawiki-l (the list for the software)
> would be appropriate first.

With all due respect, David, but you seem to be evading the point. You
must know whether this is a bug or a feature. If you don't know, then
say so, otherwise NJY is going to think you are just winding him up.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Free Knowledge Communities

body:
Free Knowledge Communities is an initiative that was discussed while
Erik and I were in South Africa
(<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Conference_reports/FLOSS,_South_Africa_2005>).
One of the aims of the initiative is to make it possible for anyone
anywhere to gain the knowledge required for any purpose, by providing
access to knowledge via the web, or on CDs distributed to remote areas
with limited connectivity. The intention is to augment efforts to
provide access to information and communication technologies in
developing countries with provision of open content.

The vision is "Knowledge for all - Education for all, Empowering
Communities to Empower Themselves with Knowledge - Towards Wisdom".

I believe this fits very well with Wikimedia's goals, so, along with
other groups such as CSIR and MIMOS, I am hoping we will make a grant
proposal related to this to the World Bank by the end of this year.

If anyone is interested in taking part in the development of the
proposal and grant application, I would like to invite you to join the
new mailing list at <http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/fkc-l>

The list content is to be kept private since the exact details of the
grant application should not be made public before it has been
accepted. For this reason, membership of the list is moderated. Public
information will be placed at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Free_Knowledge_Communities

Angela.


body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
>ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
>nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
>personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
>nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
>rather a "contact variety".
>
>
Tell them to tell the current contributors off nds wikipedia. It is a
community project. We cannot force that community to change things.

Walter/Waerth


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Raphael Wiegand wrote:

> Angela schrieb:
>
>> The commons is not an English language project, but a multi-lingual
>> one where you are encouraged to add content in all languages, making
>> the images easier to use across all projects.
>>
>>
> Well, that's right, but the different Wikipedias aren't... I wondered
> whether it was possible to show for examle in de.wikipedia only the
> image descriptions in german language, if available, and on en: only
> the english desrciptions... I think technically it should be possible;
> if every image description contained those templates ({{English}},
> {{Deutsch}}, {{Francais}} etc) it should be more or less easy to
> "extract" the english informations and show them on en: and no other
> informations, right?... (sorry for my lousy english but its nearly
> 1a.m.*yawn*)
>
> n8, rdb

Hoi,

There is one scheme for localising the Commons searchwords and
categories.. This was described in
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Using_Ultimate_Wiktionary_for_Commons You
may like to know that this scheme is likely to be implemented. I do not
need to be convinced that we can find the funding for a programmer, I am
certain we can.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Jerome Jamnicky

subject: [WikiEN-l] Personal attacks and low EQs

body:
Nathan J. Yoder wrote:
>>It will be useful to you if you criticise the person's behaviour rather
>>than criticise the person.  Maybe you see no distinction, but the fact
>>is that criticising the behaviour is less likely to cause offense and
>>lead to a flamewar.
>
>
> Calling someone a hypocrite IS criticizing their behavior.  Having to
> write out "your behavior is hypocritical" in place of "you are a
> hypocrite" is just tedious and redundant.

It's useful because Wikipedia is not written by Vulcans.  The emotional
impact of differently-worded but logically equivalent statements is
different, and this affects how constructive the discussion is.

> The accusation (and others
> like it) is also very well deserved when someone continually acts in
> bad faith on a talk page by trying to constalt twist parts of and
> ignore other parts of your argument.

I'm sure some admins should be removed from their position, but that's
an argument I haven't got enough time to get into.  My email was an
attempt to point out some things which I hoped would be useful for you
to hear.

>>Unfortunately Wikipedia does not provide a course in social skills for
>>the benefit of those who can't or won't learn by themselves.
>
>
> Wow, that sounds like a personal insult, did you just imply I have no
> social skills?
>

No.  If I sounded condescending then I apologise.

>>  In fact
>>it's likely to be impossible to completely unambiguously codify it,
>>which makes things vulnerable to _lawyering_ by people acting in bad
>>faith.
>
>
> It makes it even more vulnerable to scrupulous admins who act in bad
> faith all for a rule of questionable benefit.

And there's no way to unambiguously define it, so what to do?  Make
discussion on Wikipedia a complete free-for-all?  I don't think anybody
in the world knows how to make that work without having it turn into Usenet.

>>I'd suggest you try to make it quite clear that you're
>>acting in good faith.
>
>
> Ok?  I am making it clear that I'm acting in good faith.

I meant with behaviour in general, not just an assertion.

> Sadly, the
> same can't be said of the list owner David Gerard, who is saying I
> need to be conditioned like an animal (with a cattle prod).  His
> entirely immature behavior and personal attacks on this list and
> censorship of me are in bad faith.

No comment.

----
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: J.F. de Wolff

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

body:
Instead of supporting this chap's RC work, he gets ranted at for coming
down too hard on obvious trolls, spammers etc.

JFW

Michael Turley wrote:
 >>
 >>
 >> It seems Weyes has left. What a disgrace. We've never had such a diligent
 >> RC patroller, and he was more right than wrong in his crusade against
 >> excessive external links. That's another one gone after RickK. Why on earth
 >> do we fail the Wikipedians who do so much to protect our project from
 >> vandals, cranks and idiots?
 >>
 >> Jfdwolff
 >
 >I'm genuinely curious: in what way do you assign his absence to a
 >failure of ours?

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.6/33 - Release Date: 28/06/2005


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: more active censorship

body:
Skyring (skyring at gmail.com) [050704 06:21]:
> On 7/4/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> > Nathan J. Yoder (njyoder at energon.org) [050704 06:10]:

> > > I also notice that no one has made an argument for why it should work
> > > that way, since it's clearly only meant to thwart block evasion (which
> > > this is not a case of).

> > wikien-l isn't a development list. Have you tried reporting it as a bug
> > yet? Or perhaps discussing it on mediawiki-l (the list for the software)
> > would be appropriate first.

> With all due respect, David, but you seem to be evading the point. You
> must know whether this is a bug or a feature. If you don't know, then
> say so, otherwise NJY is going to think you are just winding him up.

The answer is "I don't know" and "there may well be something to what
Nathan says" :-) Most users of course won't ever see the blocked user
interface. If the user interface defies expectations - which is a bad
thing, after all - ask the developers why it works the way it does, in a
calm and polite manner, and Brion or Tim or Magnus or whoever wrote that
bit will almost certainly explain why it works as it does, or suggest
raising a bug.

- d.