from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jimbo ? Others advices ?

body:
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Anthere wrote:

> Au passage je rappelle que les tribunaux fran?ais ont
> condamn?s yahoo pour la mise en vente d'objet nazis.
> L'expression de th?ories, racistes, x?nophobes,
> antis?mites peuvent faire l'objet de poursuites
> p?nales m?me si le serveur est h?berg? aux ?tats Unis.
> Pour permettre ? wikipedia d'?tre accessible, je me
> permet donc de supprimer tout article qui contredisent
> directement le premier et le deuxi?me  article de la
> d?claration universelle des droits de l'Homme :

> By the way, I recall you that the French courts
> condemned yahoo for the setting on sale of Nazis
> object.  The expression of racists, xenophobes,
> anti-semites theories can be the subject of penal
> continuations even if the server is hosted in the
> United States.  To allow wikipedia to be accessible, I
> thus will delete any article which directly
> contradicts the first and the second article of the
> universal declaration of the humans right:
>
> This is a point of view rather widely followed on the
> "FRENCH" wikipedia (sorry canadian folks :-) - ey,
> this is humour !)
>
> Comments anyone ???
>
> Shall we proceed on this way ?
>
> Or not ?

To me it seems that any article which contradicts this declaration is
clearly either POV or simply wrong (the second if it pretends to make a
legal statement), and as such not suitable for Wikipedia. The only
objection which I would have is that 'delete' here is stated as the only
option. Better would be "edit and if the problem cannot be solved that way,
delete".

Andre Engels


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Racialisme

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

It's me who put this in the "racialisme" article. The word may be used by
quite some people, but I really think that it was invented by racist groups
and people to justify racism. Links in Google don't and can't justify
anything.

And I also redirected the articles about "racisme anti-blanc" and "racisme ?
l'envers" to "racisme". Personnally I don't think such articles should be in
Wikipedia. I think that it doesn't improve the quality and reputation of
Wikipedia.

But if a great number of people think I am wrong, then put back these
articles.

However, I do not support the idea to block people who write racist articles.
It's counter-productive. It's better to correct their articles and show them
the limit (as defined by the law in France). And this as long as they are few
and we can correct their articles.

Regards,
Yann

PS: I didn't subscribed to this list. So cc: me if necessary.

> Anthere, do you read my mails ?????
> I don't say racialism don't exist because there are not in the dictionnary.
> I said this word is not french, so we have to think about how to handle this
> kind of case.
> And what is the criteria that make a word that don't exist officially can be
> add in an encyclopedie or not ?
> I'm not the one that put the poor definition of racialism yesterday and I'm
> not the one who have removed [racisme antiblanc] and [racisme inverse].
> Please stop firing in the whole.

< Aoineko

- --
http://www.forget-me.net
Alternatives sur le Net
http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE+OnJcm4KYjQo0y9oRAryFAKCQ1xsg8enBe8ozEjE6E6mmcXPyGACfd0l6
k4iLwVzFCwVKb8+VS26HqY8=
=QoDP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Highly off-topic (was: Re:Racialism)

body:
Warning! Highly off-topic!

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> 3. The difference between racism(e) and racialism(e) can be a difficult.
>  British usage treats the two terms as identical, but American usage
> makes an important distinction between the two words.  Saying that
> blacks run faster than whites would be a racialist expression but not a
> racist one.  The proportion of blacks who have won Olympic medals in the
> 100 metre run suggests that the statement is true; it's what we do with
> that information that makes it racist.  (Perhaps if there were more
> blacks in the Acad?mie, it might run faster. :-) )

The number of Olympic medals on the 100 metre run is not a very good metric
to use here. There is namely a very large difference within the groups as
well, and if there were (for example) one small black people who were such
excellent runners that even their average runners were world class, while all
other blacks were significantly slower than whites on average, we might still
have the same results.

Analogous, I claim that whites live more to the south than blacks. Proof?
Just check the list of people who have visited the South Pole (note: I have
not actually done it, but it would surprise me if not the majority of them
were Caucasian).

Apart from that, I must say that I do very much agree with your post.

Andre Engels


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] "View user page" edit links on anon talk pages

body:
> it up, and I don't think it should be used for
> personal essays, sorry,
> Anthere). Using subpages on Meta might also help for
> organization.

Ah ? Well, I disagree. Of course permanent deletions
of personal essays can only occur after a consensus is
reached about that, no ?

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from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jimbo ? Others advices ?

body:
Bonjour,
Anthere gave you only very soft links... why ???
Here is the sentence that the majority of french wikipedians don't want to
see in wikipedia.
All was wrote by Philippe :

In Racisme, jan 15, 2003 :

"Il semble que certaines races soient superieures aux autres races pour
certains aspects; par exemple, les noirs courent plus vite que les blancs."

Translation by "Babel Fish Translation" :

"It seems that certain races are higher than the other races for certain
aspects; for example, the blacks run more quickly than the white."

In Antisemitisme, jan 27, 2003 :

"Historiquement, il existe de nombreux motifs pour justifier
l'antisemitisme, incluant des facteurs sociaux, economiques, nationaux,
politiques, raciaux et religieux.."

Translation by "Babel Fish Translation" :

"Historically, there are many reasons to justify the anti-semitism,
including factors social, economic, national, political, racial and
religious."

In Antisemitisme, jan 27, 2003 :

"Les juifs sont des personnes d'une race distinctement differente des autres
personnes. La discrimination basee sur une telle distinction est donc
valide."

Translation by "Babel Fish Translation" :

"The Jews are people of a race distinctly different from the other people.
The discrimination based on such a distinction is thus valid"

Comment ?

Aoineko


from_name: julien tayon

subject: [Wikipedia-l] racialisme

body:
Hello,

I did remove philippe's article far before Yann for two reasons :

- first it was not neutral, as a french who is aware of political
science and history letting him write this article was the same as
letting KKK write an article on white power. It does not means he is
racist, it only means he is lacking of objectivity (or "recul"),
- secondly, is considered racist anythings that gets in contradiction
with the first article of the D?claration universelle des Droits de
l'Homme, saying that any people are born equal in dignity and in regard
to the law, and therefore (article 2) no difference can be made
regarding the the people. And that is illegal in France.

Europe is not america, we do not have the 1st Amendment (liberty of
speech) we have la libert? d'expression (which is bounded to the respect
of the ground of democracy), and since the 2nd WW it is considered as a
delictuous to justify or state theory that are either xenophobic,
racist, or revisionist (like saying shoah never existed). You may say
that wikipedia is in the US. Fine, Yahoo also was but had problems with
french justice for selling nazis items, because regarding internet,
France -as the US- consider their justice is "extra-terriorial". As long
as a speech is seen from France, it can be prosecuted wherever the
server is.

If we accept definition that are an implicit legitimation of racism
(racialism) (wich made nazi legitimate too in killing tzigan) :
- should we also made article saying that it is legitimate to think
shoah never was? If so no matter what my opinions are, I will write it.
- Do you assume the legal responsabilities if we are prosecuted ?

And least, but not last, we may suffer indymedia far right infiltration
: french indymedia is down since they let antisemitic articles being
written. It was not their fault, they just did not see them arrive.
Infiltrated far rightists begun to write articles that were border line
first and their expresses their full expanded ideas afterwards.
Sometimes we may have to think in long term.

Infiltration is classic for french far rightist and leftist movement.
They consider the "noyeautage" as one way to convince people of the
(far) rightness of their ideas. If you are not firm at the very
beginning, fr.wikipedia.org will have the same problem as indymedia =>
shutdown -f now.

Take your responsabilities, but don't close your eyes, please.

Friendly yours,

PS words do not grow in dictionnary, they result from a consensus. Just
ask yourself, knowing that words in "ism" are the same in french and
english : do I know any words like racialism ? Maybe it proves nothing
few knows priapism, or botulism, but still ask yourself.

--
Julien Tayon  aka Jul on fr.wikipedia.org
http://www.tayon.net/			       http://libroscope.org/
Si la v?rit? est une femme, essayons de la s?duire avant de la saisir.


from_name: Takuya Murata

body:
>I object.
>
>These pages do not disturb anyone but you. As long as
>Jimbo has room on his server, what would you remove
>pages that *you* think are personals ? Why does it
>disturb you so much that we are offered a tiny
>personal space ?

I am not sure what makes you think so. I don't remember
saying because I don't like those pages, we should delete
them. But I said we need more concrete mission about meta-
wikipedia. I think the difference is apparent.

>I don't think the encyclopedic wikis it is the right
>place really to put pov stuff on, for these are public
>places. There are no limits to povs, and I don't think
>proper that these pov positions coexist with
>supposingly neutral articles. For readers could find
>them pretty easily and wonder over them.

I too do think some people need to put their pov stuff. Then
again why do we have to put pov stuff and other totally
different materials (like documentation about wikipedia
software) togehter? And if I remember, no one answered such
a question. Those stuff are not pov but only I think they
are? I doubt it.

That is for sure that the current policy of meta-wikipedia
makes nothing but chaos. I said I would like to propose we
should put more order.


body:
>There is no benifit from using a wiki to develop software.
There are
>only cons:

I don't think so, but anyway it is off-topic.

>Hope this is not to harsh :)

Not at all.


body:
>I understand that you want to see if it works.  That's
perfectly
>reasonable.  However, you are asking other volunteers, who
are already
>busy with other important things, to do something that, for
the most
>part, they are not willing to do.

Don't you think of the possibility other people who are not
involed now are possibly willing to do?

Anyway, it seems to me that no one wants to do this kind of
debate, so just forget it.


body:
I hope this mail won't get more nerve.

>Generally, give higher exposure to the open source side of
Wikipedia.
>Most people who come to the Wikipedia project simply don't
do so from a
>software development perspective, so we need to highlight
more that this
>side exists as well.

I agree. If you remember, isn't it good idea to rename
wikipedia software *or* set up a independent wiki for it?

>We need to make the Wikipedia-code Wikipedia-independent.

That is exactly what I meant before (but not all though). If
wikipedia software becomes more independent, it makes more
sense to seprate development process from meta-wikipedia.
But it is not necessary to prohibit discussion in meta-
wikipedia about the development. I am imagining of UseMod.

(I bet no one advocates all of my ideas are wrong because I
am ignorant, which I admit)

>The fact that with OpenFacts there will soon be another
Wikipedia
>specifically for open source documentation should also help
in
>attracting new developers.

What are OpenFacts?


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Racialisme

body:
Bonjour,
I didn't delete the Philippe article about Racialisme, but just move it in
the talk page because I didn't found this word neither in my dictionnary nor
in "Le Dictionnaire de l'academie francaise" that mean this world not exist
officilly in french language. After some search over the web, I found many
mention of this word so I proposed an new article to explain this racist
theory.
I don't know how to handle word that not exist in french, but if I decide to
create a new word, "ekojeslker" for exemple, then can I create an article on
it in an encyclopedia ???
Sure, Philippe is a polite person, but dont forget what he wrote :

In Racisme, jan 15, 2003 :

"Il semble que certaines races soient superieures aux autres races pour
certains aspects; par exemple, les noirs courent plus vite que les blancs."

Translation by "Babel Fish Translation" :

"It seems that certain races are higher than the other races for certain
aspects; for example, the blacks run more quickly than the white."

In Antisemitisme, jan 27, 2003 :

"Historiquement, il existe de nombreux motifs pour justifier
l'antisemitisme, incluant des facteurs sociaux, economiques, nationaux,
politiques, raciaux et religieux.."

Translation by "Babel Fish Translation" :

"Historically, there are many reasons to justify the anti-semitism,
including factors social, economic, national, political, racial and
religious."

In Antisemitisme, jan 27, 2003 :

"Les juifs sont des personnes d'une race distinctement differente des autres
personnes. La discrimination basee sur une telle distinction est donc
valide."

Translation by "Babel Fish Translation" :

"The Jews are people of a race distinctly different from the other people.
The discrimination based on such a distinction is thus valid"

I apologize french wikipedians for there rudness with Philippe, but we don't
tolerate this kind of sentences on the french wikipedia !

Aoineko


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Racialisme

body:
> Here's the comment I had on the discussion page (of
> course, my definition was deleted)

Not deletes, but moved to talk page

> Is it a proper way to talk to people ?

It's not worst than stimulate the racism

> But french people consider the word don't exist, they
> insult me, and delete my article

The word DON'T exist in french. That don't mean the theory don't exist.
I wrote an article on that don't you see it ?

> But, it is the definition that is on Wikip?dia now.

False. Look at this page : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racialisme

> I don't know if people other then french speak french
> here. But, if they do, can they give their advice
> please ?

Good advice : Stop to bug us.
There are several racist homepage where you can wrote your theory.

> I think it is totally untrue that wikipedia is
> neutral. It is not. Unless you do something, and tell
> them not to delete what I write.
> I tried to merge my texte and their texte, but they
> deleted mine again.

Neutral don't mean to say all theories are right.

Aoineko


from_name: vladd

subject: [Wikipedia-l] [Fwd: Open-Site.org]

body:
>> Perhaps the most important thing of all would be license
compatibility.  They say that they will have a "free license" -- it it
is GNU FDL, that's great.  If it's something else, well, things can
get very complicated as far as reuse goes. <<

In the month of February we will finalize the license issues, probably GNU FDL
will be chosed.

>> When it comes to copyright, the real problem is not going to be with
people who put copyrighted material into an on-line encyclopedia.
 That's easily removed as soon as it's recognized.  It's going to be
with people who try to claim personal copyrights on openly licensed or
even public domain material.  <<

Public domain material is by definition uncopyrighted. People can not, by
definition, claim personal copyrights on public domain materials. At best,
they can argue whether a certain material is in public domain or not.

Personal copyrights on openly licensed material is not something new. If I
create a material and publish it under the GNU FDL license, I still have
copyright on it and I'm free to distribute it under any other license that I
choose to. People will be able to use my material according to the GNU FDL,
or select the alternative licenses that I offer to them.

This is the way the Mozilla project ( http://mozilla.org ) works, by allowing
their code to be distributed both under GPL and MPL licenses.

>> There is a copyright notice on the bottom of each page. <<

That will be debated in the month of February, like specified above. Right
now, it means that anybody contributing to the Open-site project agrees to
its distribution license, while still retaining the copyright of their
submissions. The words "Open-site" refer in that particular instance to the
Open-site contributors.

The Internet community can use content in the Open-site project according to
its license (probably GNU GPL), but authors of the original content can still
use the material at their discretion.

>> They are younger project, and I see nothing in there about how they
would handle such issues as NPOV and vandalism. <<

Senior editors at the project have discretion regarding editorial account
removal.

Thanks,
Vlad.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jimbo ? Others advices ?

body:
> I think I remember stating somewhere that I gave just
> the recent editions.
> The first edits were *awfully* biaised.
>
> But, I really don't think the last ones were so much.
> In any case, there were not so biaised that the only
> reaction to them be to *remove* them immediately,
> without trying any cooperative editing. Cooperation is
> not about removing what doesnot please you. It is not
> about saying people are vandals and write only loads
> of shit when you don't agree with them. It is slightly
> more nicer than that.

Racism and anti-Semitism are not a problem of biais.
Firstly it is attack to human dignity.
Secondly it is forbidden by the french law.

> It is interesting to note you stated the info on
> racialism was probably coming from "My Kampf", and it

It was a joke on a talk page. Please don't put my sentence outside the
context

> turned out to come from a "sos racism" site :-)

Not only from that site.

> Whatever.
>
> The last edits do not justify banning

For the moment, only Curry started to talk about banning.
Personnaly, I don't care.
I didn't touch the Philippe articles that I though to be acceptable.
But I will still move to talk page all atrocity his is able to say.

> There is nothing to justify the insults you use

There is nothing to justify incitement to racism

> The french-speaking wikipedia does not have to follow
> the french law. Lybiens also speak french, and quite a
> number of countries in northern africa. Some of them
> are under islamist republic. I am sure some of them
> would find the actual content going against some of
> their laws; Would you accept them saying it should be
> removed because it goes against their laws ? I don't
> think so, but where is the difference ? When the
> french-speaking wikipedia is printed to be distributed
> in France, we'll have to worry about that. When it
> will be printed and distributed in Lybia, we'll have
> to worry about law. Not now.

ok

> Following the UN point of view on wikipedia is wrong.
> It is *against* the very idea of a neutral and
> extensive encyclopedia.

?

> And whether it is true or not that human races do not
> exist, some have theorized there were several races,
> and this information should be in wikipedia. And as Ec
> put it "racialism" is a theory, and must be
> differenciated from "racism" which add the notion of
> superiority of one race over the other. It is wrong to
> qualify racism every theory that talk about race, and
> as such to remove it from wikipedia, and it is wrong
> to qualify as a racist every person who support this
> type of theory.

I'm not agasint speak about those theory, I'm agaisnt those who claim there
are right.

> As for all the below sentences, I have no worry. With
> about 10 people jumping on any edits to immediately
> remove them - just in case it might be offensive (and
> before checking if it really is), there is very little
> chance it will damage any reputation.
>
> Meanwhile, we have a bunch of slightly better
> articles, no ?

Except you, all wikipedians seem to agree the fact Philippe don't write
articles to halp wikipedia, but onlu to bug us.

Aoineko


list: wikien-l

from_name: Jonathan Walther

subject: [WikiEN-l] Clutch/Jonathan and the mystery of NPOV

body:
On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 12:51:10AM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote:
>http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Richard_Wagner&diff=0&oldid=634297
>
>I believe this edit speaks for itself. Notice that this edit was labeled as
>"restoring an URL and working toward a compromise on POV issues". A
>"compromise" (after his previous drastic POVification of the article) which includes
>the unexplained removal of plenty of significant information and obviously
>POV statements such as:
>
>"Labelling Wagner as an anti-Semite is misleading; he never supported
>violence against Jews, nor did he hold them to be at fault for the cultural divide
>that he perceived existed between German Jews of his time, and mainstream
>German culture."

Yes. I encourage everyone to take a look at my edits.  People with good
historical backgrounds, who actually do the related research, will find
my edits to be truthful and balanced.  What is unbalanced are the edits
that use phrases like "virulent anti-Semite".

Some of the things I took out were fabricated entirely, such as Erik's
claim that Wagner "forced" a colleague to change his religion; that claim
is a far cry from the truth that he asked a colleague to convert, colleague
refused, and they continued as friends to the end of their lives.

What I am doing is not whitewashing, which involves plastering over and hiding
someones faults.  I am merely picking up and removing the POV trash that some
have been throwing around, but which hasn't been sticking as much as they
would like.

NPOV, in a collegial spirit of mutual respect is my main goal.  I don't
appreciate attacks like Erik's.  If he disagrees with my edits, he is,
and always has been, welcome to make his own edits.  I can back my edits
up with relevant research.  I really wish that a particularly vocal few
would do the same for their edits.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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from_name: Dan Keshet

subject: [WikiEN-l] 142 and voting systems pages

body:
Hi all,

142 (whom many believe is the IP formerly known as 24) has been
editing many voting systems pages in a very odd way.  He takes the
literal meanings of words in a phrase (instant runoff voting,
disapproval voting) and writes a lot of things about topics vaguely
related to the overlap of those two words.  He attributes lots of
random (but plausible) viewpoints to critics, countercritics, etc.,
as if he were summarizing a particular coffeehouse conversation.

I can't keep up with him in real-time, though eventually I can edit
all these pages and justify my edits in talk pages.  I just thought
I'd let you all know in cases there's anybody else who'd like to help
me follow up on this.

DanKeshet


from_name: Bridget

from_email: Bridget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] We need more information on the Baghdad Agreed Minutes Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition, and Related Matters

body:
I wish to apoligize for subverting community regulations. As I would like to add some information on Salim I al Sabah, Kabbar, Abdul Aziz ibn Abdul Rahman ibn Saud, Najd, Faisal I, Political Titles of the Ottoman Empire, Warba, Abdulla II al Sabah, the First Kuwaiti Crisis, Abdullah ibn Hussein, Mashian, Failakah, Auhah, al Khalifa, al Jalahima, al Sabah, Abdul Karim Qasim, Jaber III al Ahmad al Sabah, Muhammad I al Sabah, the Second Kuwaiti Crisis, Zaki Arsuzi, Salah al Din Bitar, Ghazi ibn Faisal, Bakr Sidqi, Abdullah II al Sabah, Ahmad al Sabah, Abdul Ilah, and Percy Cox, as well as (obviously) the Anglo-Iraqi Treaty of October 1922, the Turkish Petroleum Company, the Basra-Baghdad Highway, the Berlin-Baghdad Railroad, and the Abudllah Khor Waterway, Nuri al Said, Abdulla III al Sabah, Aramco, the Kuwait Oil Company, and the Anglo-Kuwaiti Treaty of 1899; I would like to inquire as to what objections you might have to my doing so? Vera Cruz

---------------------------------
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body:
On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 12:51:10AM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote:
>I believe this edit speaks for itself. Notice that this edit was labeled as
>"restoring an URL and working toward a compromise on POV issues". A
>
>"Labelling Wagner as an anti-Semite is misleading; he never supported
>violence against Jews, nor did he hold them to be at fault for the cultural divide
>that he perceived existed between German Jews of his time, and mainstream
>German culture."

Your quote is a small part of my edits; I don't always get things right
in the first edit.  Were I to do it again, I would have written:

"Although labelled an anti-Semite today, Wagner never supported..."

If you took the time and effort to read the original source material
that the accusations are based on, you would see why you have no basis
for complaining about my recent edits to the Wagner article.

Erik, I encourage you to research your facts before criticizing me
publicly.  If you have questions about my edits, perhaps a more amiable
forum for discussing them would be on the appropriate Talk page.  I am
always open to honest criticism.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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body:
>> I agree. If you remember, isn't it good idea to rename
>> wikipedia software *or* set up a independent wiki for it?
>
>Rename - ... But please, no endless name debate on
wikitech. This is
>exactly what meta is for.

I will post a question to meta-wikipedia. Or how about the
main wikipedia maining list? I would like to conduct
discussion in the place other than meta-wikipedia (Yeah,
consider this is my preference)

>One advantage of the Wikipedia name is that it might make
people more
>willing to participate. "Oh, the Wikipedia wiki? Sure, I'd
love to help
>with that." But I don't know how strong that argument is.
I'm not opposed
>to a name change.

Is there any objection to rename the wikipedia software so
far?

>Independent wiki - I don't really see the point. Meta
works, we just need
>to define it properly (for the record, I absolutely
encourage you to clean
>it up, and I don't think it should be used for personal
essays, sorry,
>Anthere).

I don't think either we need an independt wiki as long as
meta is dedicated to its meta purpose.

I will post a proposal to the main wikipedia regarding this.

>If you can't convince people to clean up Meta, ask me for
help ;-)

Haha.

>> What are OpenFacts?
>
>Wikipedia-like wiki specifically for open source
documentation
>maintenance. Will probably be officially launched next
week.  There will
>also be Wikipedia-based wikis for two other projects I'm
working on.

Cool!


from_name: koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] partisan wrangling on wikipedia

body:
When I think of wikipedia, somehow I'm reminded of the [[Milgram
experiment]]--except the seats are really wired.  Currently I would
not recommend anyone join wikipedia, unless the person knows of some
obscure Russian filmmaker to write about or some photographic
technique which calls for dry unemotional writing.  Something about
the culture here is just *wrong*; it calls to people who itch to have
a buzzer in hand, and those of us lucky enough not to be on the
receiving end are still uncomfortable watching the spectacle.

Why are you here?  Are any of you trying to change another person's
opinion?  If you are, you belong on Usenet, and best of luck.

kq


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] We need more information on the Baghdad Agreed Minutes Rega...

body:
daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:

> It may not be a popular position, but i really do believe in giving a
> second (or is it a third) chance. Inevitably, people will be watching
> the articles and going over them with a finetooth comb anyway. Still,
> this could be a potentially valuable contribution. If asked to vote, I
> would say yes. Let Lir, Vera, Adam or whatever contribute, at least on
> a trial basis.
>
> Danny

I agree.  Some of the previous attitudes toward this person often struck
me as some kind of a shark feeding frenzy.  Let him work on the articles
that he has listed, and that work can speak for itself.

Eclecticology


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Optimizing and tuning

body:
On ven, 2003-01-31 at 17:15, Erik Moeller wrote:
> 1) Composite indexes and index use in general.... If I
> understand correctly, this means that when we do a query with multiple
> comparisons, e.g. WHERE foo=bar AND baz=bat, only one index is used.

Might want to check into that, yes...

> There are also a couple of tables with no indexes (including ARCHIVE,
> which may cause Special:Undelete to create high server load) and some
> unexplainable ones (site_stats has an index, but only one row).

Archive is very rarely used. But, it probably should have an index stuck
on the namespace & title fields at least.

>  We really
> need to clean up our indexes. I can't help much with this without server
> access because I don't know if the table structures have been altered.

They should all be the same...

> 2) The HANDLER command. HANDLER, which works with both InnoDB and MyISAM,
> provides low-level access to tables *without locking*. You get reads, but
> you don't get consistency, which may cause problems when you're dealing
> with critical, heavily modified data.

Now you're scaring me. :)

> 3) Upgrading to MySQL4. MySQL4 supports query caching (also subqueries,
> but I haven't looked into that), which means that heavily queried pages
> will load faster. When someone mentioned query caching, a lot of other
> people made comments like "query caching rocks", so I assume it provides
> quite some performance benefits in practice.

I'm planning to do that this weekend. (Weekend nights are relatively low
traffic. Relatively. ;)

> 4) Tuning my.cnf. According to one IRC resident, upping table_cache can
> greatly increase performance with lots of UPDATEs. If we create new
> indexes, we may also need to raise index_cache (there's a formula to
> calculate your index cache efficiency, currently we are at 99.75%, which
> is pretty good).

Attached are current my.cnf file and SHOW STATUS and SHOW VARIABLES
output. More tweaking suggestions are welcome.

> 5) Caching our article index. I have mentioned this idea before, I think:
> We could just keep our entire article index in memory *persistently*
> (currently the linkcache is filled for each request), which should make
> link lookup almost instant. There are several ways to accomplish this:

I'm still dubious about consistency, but if someone can figure it out,
great!

> - We could use session variables for the purpose. There is supposed to be
> an option to keep session stuff in shared memory. This might help with
> other caching problems as well.

It's been suggested that cookies/session vars be used for user prefs.

> - We could just put a database on a ramdisk for this purpose.

MySQL has a 'HEAP' table type which is in-memory; we wouldn't have to
set up a separate ramdisk. It's not persistent, so we'd either have to
pre-fill the whole thing or fall back to checking 'cur' on demand.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
# Example mysql config file for large systems.
#
# This is for large system with memory = 512M where the system runs mainly
# MySQL.
#
# You can copy this file to
# /etc/my.cnf to set global options,
# mysql-data-dir/my.cnf to set server-specific options (in this
# installation this directory is /usr/local/mysql/var) or
# ~/.my.cnf to set user-specific options.
#
# One can in this file use all long options that the program supports.
# If you want to know which options a program support, run the program
# with --help option.

# The following options will be passed to all MySQL clients
[client]
#password	= your_password
port		= 3306
socket		= /tmp/mysql.sock

# Here follows entries for some specific programs

# The MySQL server
[mysqld]
port		= 3306
socket		= /tmp/mysql.sock
skip-locking
set-variable	= key_buffer=384M
set-variable	= max_allowed_packet=1M
set-variable	= table_cache=256
# table_cache was 256; were seeing opened_tables up to 918 or so
set-variable	= sort_buffer=16M
#sortbuffer was 1M
set-variable	= record_buffer=4M
set-variable	= myisam_sort_buffer_size=128M
set-variable	= max_connections=250
set-variable	= thread_cache=8
# Try number of CPU's*2 for thread_concurrency
set-variable	= thread_concurrency=4
log-bin
server-id	= 1

# Uncomment the following if you are using BDB tables
#set-variable	= bdb_cache_size=64M
#set-variable	= bdb_max_lock=100000

# Uncomment the following if you are using Innobase tables
innodb_data_file_path = ibdata1:1000M:autoextend
innodb_data_home_dir = /usr/local/mysql/var/
innodb_log_group_home_dir = /usr/local/mysql/var/
innodb_log_arch_dir = /usr/local/mysql/var/
set-variable = innodb_mirrored_log_groups=1
set-variable = innodb_log_files_in_group=3
set-variable = innodb_log_file_size=5M
set-variable = innodb_log_buffer_size=8M
innodb_flush_log_at_trx_commit=1
innodb_log_archive=0
#set-variable = innodb_buffer_pool_size=16M
set-variable = innodb_buffer_pool_size=384M
#set-variable = innodb_buffer_pool_size=512M
set-variable = innodb_additional_mem_pool_size=2M
set-variable = innodb_file_io_threads=4
set-variable = innodb_lock_wait_timeout=50

# Point the following paths to different dedicated disks
#tmpdir		= /tmp/
#log-update 	= /path-to-dedicated-directory/hostname

[mysqldump]
quick
set-variable	= max_allowed_packet=16M

[mysql]
no-auto-rehash
# Remove the next comment character if you are not familiar with SQL
#safe-updates

[isamchk]
set-variable	= key_buffer=128M
set-variable	= sort_buffer=128M
set-variable	= read_buffer=2M
set-variable	= write_buffer=2M

[myisamchk]
set-variable	= key_buffer=128M
set-variable	= sort_buffer=128M
set-variable	= read_buffer=2M
set-variable	= write_buffer=2M

[mysqlhotcopy]
interactive-timeout
-------------- next part --------------
Logging to file 'status'
mysql> show status;
+--------------------------+-----------+
| Variable_name            | Value     |
+--------------------------+-----------+
| Aborted_clients          | 0         |
| Aborted_connects         | 0         |
| Bytes_received           | 543401506 |
| Bytes_sent               | 794736733 |
| Com_admin_commands       | 0         |
| Com_alter_table          | 0         |
| Com_analyze              | 0         |
| Com_backup_table         | 0         |
| Com_begin                | 1150      |
| Com_change_db            | 66727     |
| Com_change_master        | 0         |
| Com_check                | 0         |
| Com_commit               | 573       |
| Com_create_db            | 0         |
| Com_create_function      | 0         |
| Com_create_index         | 0         |
| Com_create_table         | 0         |
| Com_delete               | 3464      |
| Com_drop_db              | 0         |
| Com_drop_function        | 0         |
| Com_drop_index           | 0         |
| Com_drop_table           | 0         |
| Com_flush                | 0         |
| Com_grant                | 0         |
| Com_insert               | 3898      |
| Com_insert_select        | 3         |
| Com_kill                 | 1         |
| Com_load                 | 0         |
| Com_load_master_table    | 0         |
| Com_lock_tables          | 0         |
| Com_optimize             | 0         |
| Com_purge                | 0         |
| Com_rename_table         | 0         |
| Com_repair               | 0         |
| Com_replace              | 755       |
| Com_replace_select       | 0         |
| Com_reset                | 0         |
| Com_restore_table        | 0         |
| Com_revoke               | 0         |
| Com_rollback             | 67121     |
| Com_select               | 7129227   |
| Com_set_option           | 0         |
| Com_show_binlogs         | 0         |
| Com_show_create          | 0         |
| Com_show_databases       | 0         |
| Com_show_fields          | 0         |
| Com_show_grants          | 0         |
| Com_show_keys            | 0         |
| Com_show_logs            | 0         |
| Com_show_master_status   | 0         |
| Com_show_open_tables     | 0         |
| Com_show_processlist     | 9         |
| Com_show_slave_status    | 0         |
| Com_show_status          | 62438     |
| Com_show_innodb_status   | 0         |
| Com_show_tables          | 0         |
| Com_show_variables       | 0         |
| Com_slave_start          | 0         |
| Com_slave_stop           | 0         |
| Com_truncate             | 0         |
| Com_unlock_tables        | 0         |
| Com_update               | 75321     |
| Connections              | 4298      |
| Created_tmp_disk_tables  | 446       |
| Created_tmp_tables       | 1393      |
| Created_tmp_files        | 27        |
| Delayed_insert_threads   | 1         |
| Delayed_writes           | 609       |
| Delayed_errors           | 0         |
| Flush_commands           | 1         |
| Handler_delete           | 6760      |
| Handler_read_first       | 2877      |
| Handler_read_key         | 10758941  |
| Handler_read_next        | 22563197  |
| Handler_read_prev        | 2695      |
| Handler_read_rnd         | 2303196   |
| Handler_read_rnd_next    | 13945728  |
| Handler_update           | 74790     |
| Handler_write            | 5304723   |
| Key_blocks_used          | 164475    |
| Key_read_requests        | 83527461  |
| Key_reads                | 162577    |
| Key_write_requests       | 554205    |
| Key_writes               | 390844    |
| Max_used_connections     | 103       |
| Not_flushed_key_blocks   | 0         |
| Not_flushed_delayed_rows | 0         |
| Open_tables              | 256       |
| Open_files               | 338       |
| Open_streams             | 0         |
| Opened_tables            | 950       |
| Questions                | 7352503   |
| Select_full_join         | 0         |
| Select_full_range_join   | 0         |
| Select_range             | 1806      |
| Select_range_check       | 0         |
| Select_scan              | 2400      |
| Slave_running            | OFF       |
| Slave_open_temp_tables   | 0         |
| Slow_launch_threads      | 0         |
| Slow_queries             | 1441      |
| Sort_merge_passes        | 10        |
| Sort_range               | 4114      |
| Sort_rows                | 10024918  |
| Sort_scan                | 1137      |
| Table_locks_immediate    | 9707820   |
| Table_locks_waited       | 4716      |
| Threads_cached           | 8         |
| Threads_created          | 1853      |
| Threads_connected        | 46        |
| Threads_running          | 1         |
| Uptime                   | 16253     |
+--------------------------+-----------+
112 rows in set (0.00 sec)

mysql> tee variables;
-------------- next part --------------
| Variable_name                   | Value                                                                                |
+---------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| back_log                        | 50                                                                                |
| basedir                         | /usr/local/mysql/                                                                                |
| binlog_cache_size               | 32768                                                                                |
| character_set                   | latin1                                                                                |
| character_sets                  | latin1 dec8 dos german1 hp8 koi8_ru latin2 swe7 usa7 cp1251 danish hebrew win1251 estonia hungarian koi8_ukr win1251ukr greek win1250 croat cp1257 latin5 |
| concurrent_insert               | ON                                                                                |
| connect_timeout                 | 5                                                                                |
| datadir                         | /usr/local/mysql/var/                                                                                |
| delay_key_write                 | ON                                                                                |
| delayed_insert_limit            | 100                                                                                |
| delayed_insert_timeout          | 300                                                                                |
| delayed_queue_size              | 1000                                                                                |
| flush                           | OFF                                                                                |
| flush_time                      | 0                                                                                |
| have_bdb                        | NO                                                                                |
| have_gemini                     | NO                                                                                |
| have_innodb                     | YES                                                                                |
| have_isam                       | YES                                                                                |
| have_raid                       | NO                                                                                |
| have_openssl                    | NO                                                                                |
| init_file                       |                                                                                |
| innodb_additional_mem_pool_size | 2097152                                                                                |
| innodb_buffer_pool_size         | 402653184                                                                                |
| innodb_data_file_path           | ibdata1                                                                                |
| innodb_data_home_dir            | /usr/local/mysql/var/                                                                                |
| innodb_file_io_threads          | 4                                                                                |
| innodb_force_recovery           | 0                                                                                |
| innodb_thread_concurrency       | 8                                                                                |
| innodb_flush_log_at_trx_commit  | 1                                                                                |
| innodb_fast_shutdown            | ON                                                                                |
| innodb_flush_method             |                                                                                |
| innodb_lock_wait_timeout        | 50                                                                                |
| innodb_log_arch_dir             | /usr/local/mysql/var/                                                                                |
| innodb_log_archive              | OFF                                                                                |
| innodb_log_buffer_size          | 8388608                                                                                |
| innodb_log_file_size            | 5242880                                                                                |
| innodb_log_files_in_group       | 3                                                                                |
| innodb_log_group_home_dir       | /usr/local/mysql/var/                                                                                |
| innodb_mirrored_log_groups      | 1                                                                                |
| interactive_timeout             | 28800                                                                                |
| join_buffer_size                | 131072                                                                                |
| key_buffer_size                 | 402649088                                                                                |
| language                        | /usr/local/mysql/share/mysql/english/                                                                                |
| large_files_support             | ON                                                                                |
| locked_in_memory                | OFF                                                                                |
| log                             | OFF                                                                                |
| log_update                      | OFF                                                                                |
| log_bin                         | ON                                                                                |
| log_slave_updates               | OFF                                                                                |
| log_long_queries                | OFF                                                                                |
| long_query_time                 | 10                                                                                |
| low_priority_updates            | OFF                                                                                |
| lower_case_table_names          | 0                                                                                |
| max_allowed_packet              | 1047552                                                                                |
| max_binlog_cache_size           | 4294967295                                                                                |
| max_binlog_size                 | 1073741824                                                                                |
| max_connections                 | 250                                                                                |
| max_connect_errors              | 10                                                                                |
| max_delayed_threads             | 20                                                                                |
| max_heap_table_size             | 16777216                                                                                |
| max_join_size                   | 4294967295                                                                                |
| max_sort_length                 | 1024                                                                                |
| max_user_connections            | 0                                                                                |
| max_tmp_tables                  | 32                                                                                |
| max_write_lock_count            | 4294967295                                                                                |
| myisam_max_extra_sort_file_size | 256                                                                                |
| myisam_max_sort_file_size       | 2047                                                                                |
| myisam_recover_options          | 0                                                                                |
| myisam_sort_buffer_size         | 134217728                                                                                |
| net_buffer_length               | 16384                                                                                |
| net_read_timeout                | 30                                                                                |
| net_retry_count                 | 10                                                                                |
| net_write_timeout               | 60                                                                                |
| open_files_limit                | 0                                                                                |
| pid_file                        | /usr/local/mysql/var/www.wikipedia.org.pid                                                                                |
| port                            | 3306                                                                                |
| protocol_version                | 10                                                                                |
| record_buffer                   | 4190208                                                                                |
| record_rnd_buffer               | 4190208                                                                                |
| query_buffer_size               | 0                                                                                |
| safe_show_database              | OFF                                                                                |
| server_id                       | 1                                                                                |
| slave_net_timeout               | 3600                                                                                |
| skip_locking                    | ON                                                                                |
| skip_networking                 | OFF                                                                                |
| skip_show_database              | OFF                                                                                |
| slow_launch_time                | 2                                                                                |
| socket                          | /tmp/mysql.sock                                                                                |
| sort_buffer                     | 16777208                                                                                |
| sql_mode                        | 0                                                                                |
| table_cache                     | 256                                                                                |
| table_type                      | MYISAM                                                                                |
| thread_cache_size               | 8                                                                                |
| thread_stack                    | 65536                                                                                |
| transaction_isolation           | READ-COMMITTED                                                                                |
| timezone                        | UTC                                                                                |
| tmp_table_size                  | 33554432                                                                                |
| tmpdir                          | /tmp/                                                                                |
| version                         | 3.23.54-log                                                                                |
| wait_timeout                    | 28800                                                                                |
-------------- next part --------------
=====================================
030201  1:27:20 INNODB MONITOR OUTPUT
=====================================
Per second averages calculated from the last 42 seconds
----------
SEMAPHORES
----------
OS WAIT ARRAY INFO: reservation count 23014, signal count 21935
Mutex spin waits 206169, rounds 803270, OS waits 4550
RW-shared spins 33781, OS waits 16506; RW-excl spins 1896, OS waits 946
------------
TRANSACTIONS
------------
Trx id counter 0 143971568
Purge done for trx's n:o < 0 143970550 undo n:o < 0 0
Total number of lock structs in row lock hash table 0
LIST OF TRANSACTIONS FOR EACH SESSION:
---TRANSACTION 0 143971539, not started, OS thread id 1891344
MySQL thread id 4302, query id 7360862 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971477, not started, OS thread id 1892379
MySQL thread id 4301, query id 7360082 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971469, not started, OS thread id 1879106
MySQL thread id 4300, query id 7360093 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971387, not started, OS thread id 1898537
MySQL thread id 4299, query id 7359067 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971437, not started, OS thread id 1896482
MySQL thread id 4298, query id 7359381 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971425, not started, OS thread id 1895457
MySQL thread id 4282, query id 7359292 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971493, not started, OS thread id 1906750
MySQL thread id 4293, query id 7360149 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971397, not started, OS thread id 1900594
MySQL thread id 4287, query id 7359143 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971230, not started, OS thread id 1889320
MySQL thread id 4272, query id 7357977 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970088, not started, OS thread id 1873967
MySQL thread id 4273, query id 7349575 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970960, not started, OS thread id 1890350
MySQL thread id 4269, query id 7356117 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971286, not started, OS thread id 1859638
MySQL thread id 4228, query id 7358268 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971081, not started, OS thread id 1868864
MySQL thread id 4221, query id 7358028 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143935650, not started, OS thread id 1858613
MySQL thread id 4151, query id 7044028 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971231, not started, OS thread id 1852454
MySQL thread id 4106, query id 7357979 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970821, not started, OS thread id 1595481
MySQL thread id 4088, query id 7355333 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143969693, not started, OS thread id 1841197
MySQL thread id 4083, query id 7347693 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143968707, not started, OS thread id 1845299
MySQL thread id 4075, query id 7344631 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970362, not started, OS thread id 1624140
MySQL thread id 4065, query id 7352025 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970760, not started, OS thread id 1838112
MySQL thread id 4064, query id 7355093 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971495, not started, OS thread id 1807397
MySQL thread id 4047, query id 7360181 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971480, not started, OS thread id 1821753
MySQL thread id 4020, query id 7360110 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser FULLTEXT initialization
SELECT cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title,cur_text FROM cur,searchindex WHERE cur_id=si_page AND (MATCH (si_text) AGAINST ('Texas Poverty wage') AND (cur_
---TRANSACTION 0 143971491, not started, OS thread id 1828931
MySQL thread id 4000, query id 7360119 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971241, not started, OS thread id 1796120
MySQL thread id 3965, query id 7358021 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143965377, not started, OS thread id 1644573
MySQL thread id 3953, query id 7313262 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971432, not started, OS thread id 1815601
MySQL thread id 3984, query id 7359342 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971260, not started, OS thread id 1800220
MySQL thread id 3969, query id 7358166 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971535, not started, OS thread id 1798170
MySQL thread id 3967, query id 7360794 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971567, not started, OS thread id 1797145
MySQL thread id 3966, query id 7361002 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971297, not started, OS thread id 1795095
MySQL thread id 3964, query id 7358336 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971548, not started, OS thread id 1794069
MySQL thread id 3963, query id 7360910 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971546, not started, OS thread id 1793043
MySQL thread id 3962, query id 7361003 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971564, not started, OS thread id 1792018
MySQL thread id 3961, query id 7360954 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970835, not started, OS thread id 1790993
MySQL thread id 3960, query id 7355388 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971510, not started, OS thread id 1789967
MySQL thread id 3959, query id 7360431 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970891, not started, OS thread id 1788941
MySQL thread id 3958, query id 7355742 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971497, not started, OS thread id 1787916
MySQL thread id 3957, query id 7360184 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971521, not started, OS thread id 1786891
MySQL thread id 3956, query id 7360635 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143969456, not started, OS thread id 1741846
MySQL thread id 3955, query id 7350002 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143969447, not started, OS thread id 1785866
MySQL thread id 3954, query id 7360352 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143941735, not started, OS thread id 1765396
MySQL thread id 3952, query id 7109506 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970413, not started, OS thread id 1664039
MySQL thread id 3951, query id 7352502 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971509, not started, OS thread id 1730574
MySQL thread id 3950, query id 7360985 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143970700, not started, OS thread id 1776700
MySQL thread id 3949, query id 7360426 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143971255, not started, OS thread id 1777727
MySQL thread id 3948, query id 7358108 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
---TRANSACTION 0 143938343, not started, OS thread id 1768490
MySQL thread id 3947, query id 7069280 localhost.localdomain 127.0.0.1 wikiuser
--------
FILE I/O
--------
I/O thread 0 state: waiting for i/o request
I/O thread 1 state: waiting for i/o request
I/O thread 2 state: waiting for i/o request
I/O thread 3 state: waiting for i/o request
Pending normal aio reads: 0, aio writes: 0,
 ibuf aio reads: 0, log i/o's: 0, sync i/o's: 0
Pending flushes (fsync) log: 0; buffer pool: 1
251945 OS file reads, 55745 OS file writes, 11552 OS fsyncs
3.76 reads/s, 17524 avg bytes/read, 5.69 writes/s, 0.76 fsyncs/s
-------------------------------------
INSERT BUFFER AND ADAPTIVE HASH INDEX
-------------------------------------
Ibuf for space 0: size 1, free list len 5, seg size 7,
1497 inserts, 1497 merged recs, 1428 merges
Hash table size 1593833, used cells 704903, node heap has 914 buffer(s)
624.70 hash searches/s, 309.04 non-hash searches/s
---
LOG
---
Log sequence number 0 1324192703
Log flushed up to   0 1324192703
Last checkpoint at  0 1324161146
0 pending log writes, 1 pending chkp writes
7212 log i/o's done, 0.43 log i/o's/second
----------------------
BUFFER POOL AND MEMORY
----------------------
Total memory allocated 448995006; in additional pool allocated 1798912
Buffer pool size   24576
Free buffers       0
Database pages     23662
Modified db pages  72
Pending reads 0
Pending writes: LRU 0, flush list 0, single page 0
Pages read 411420, created 392, written 49000
4.05 reads/s, 0.07 creates/s, 5.45 writes/s
Buffer pool hit rate 999 / 1000
--------------
ROW OPERATIONS
--------------
0 queries inside InnoDB, 0 queries in queue; main thread: making checkpoint
Number of rows inserted 26902, updated 4719, deleted 24772, read 22899978
2.40 inserts/s, 0.17 updates/s, 2.40 deletes/s, 648.72 reads/s
----------------------------
END OF INNODB MONITOR OUTPUT
============================
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from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
On Fre, 2003-01-31 at 17:29, Takuya Murata wrote:

Wiki instead of CVS:
> Why don't we try?

Because it doesn't work. CVS is a lot more than just an editing system.
Please familiarize yourself with it before suggesting this yet another
time:
http://www.cvshome.org/docs/manual/cvs.html

> I know my proposal is not good enough, what else we can do
> to encourage more people to partipicate development?

Generally, give higher exposure to the open source side of Wikipedia.
Most people who come to the Wikipedia project simply don't do so from a
software development perspective, so we need to highlight more that this
side exists as well.

We need to make the Wikipedia-code Wikipedia-independent. This isn't
very hard, but some stuff needs to be fixed before Wikipedia can really
be recommended as a general wiki, especially in the interlanguage links
department (fortunately for us, most other wikis don't have
multilanguage support at all).

The fact that with OpenFacts there will soon be another Wikipedia
specifically for open source documentation should also help in
attracting new developers.

Regards,

Erik
--
FOKUS - Fraunhofer Insitute for Open Communication Systems
Project BerliOS - http://www.berlios.de


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] 142 and voting systems pages

body:
Just revert - no need to justify. Or ban the IP. This sort of nonsense doesn't need a long debate. we're here to make an encyclopedia, not to accommodate weird views.

Ed


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Racialisme

body:
Anthere, do you read my mails ?????
I don't say racialism don't exist because there are not in the dictionnary.
I said this word is not french, so we have to think about how to handle this
kind of case.
And what is the criteria that make a word that don't exist officially can be
add in an encyclopedie or not ?
I'm not the one that put the poor definition of racialism yesterday and I'm
not the one who have removed [racisme antiblanc] and [racisme inverse].
Please stop firing in the whole.

Aoineko


from_name: Florian Schnadt

body:
Takuya Murata wrote:

> I don't aim to discuss which one is better CVS or wiki.
>
> First of all, again I am not so sure developing in wiki
> works. Some think it won't work and some (including me, only
> me?) think it might.
>
> But think of the reality. Don't we need better mechanism for
> development? Wiki might not work I know that. But I am not
> sure yet.
>
> Why don't we try? Is there any technical trouble to publish
> wikipedia software sourcecode? It seems to me that it is
> possible to publish sourcecode and some sysops apply them
> regularly. If it didn't yield good result, it doesn't hurt
> anything anyway.
>
> Oh, maybe am I only one who believes development in wiki
> might work? If so, I should do that in my own.
>

There is no benifit from using a wiki to develop software. There are
only cons:

1) There is no "barrier" so everybody who has read a 2 hour tutorial on
PHP can just start editing,
which will help nobody.
2) Versions of articles (or source code files) are only linear, and
there is no connection between distinct files (their versions).
3) It encourages small edits which lead to choas.
4) Think about an edit war on source files. That?s rediculous.
5) You can?t run/compile etc. it. You can?t edit it offline or with an
appropriate editor. You can?t use
any tools.
6) all the things I forgot

To sum it up: There will be a chaos in versions, small changes which
don?t fit together and lose the view for the large picture, you can?t
use editors, run it, use tools ... at best the software will be hacked
(in the worst sense) together trash which somehow manages to run.

A wiki might be the right thing for geniouses: Ah, he did that change,
that was because of this and that, it leads to that and this, now put it
toghether with my ideas, ...
If anybody who could handle that exists, he would do just fine with
CVS/sourceforge.

Hope this is not to harsh :)

Flo


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re:  "View user page" edit links on anon talk pages

body:
On Friday 31 January 2003 05:41 pm, Anthere wrote:
> > it up, and I don't think it should be used for
> > personal essays, sorry,
> > Anthere). Using subpages on Meta might also help for
> > organization.
>
> Ah ? Well, I disagree. Of course permanent deletions
> of personal essays can only occur after a consensus is
> reached about that, no ?

I agree with Anthere and strongly disagree with eliminating personal essays
from meta. If POV material isn't allowed on meta then where should it go?
This will only make it more difficult to keep this stuff out of the
encyclopedias.

Meta can and should be many things. Simply create an alternate Main Page for
whatever you want to focus on (software for example) and organize everything
on that page and the pages linked from it in any way you wish. Heck even
create another namespace if you really want to organize things, but I see no
reason whatsoever why meta shouldn't be more like a regular wiki with a
fairly undefined scope. What really is needed is more integration between
topics discussed on the mailing lists and meta.

--mav


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject:
Spin-off software (was Re: [Wikitech-l] "View user page" edit links
 on anon talk pages)

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>We need to make the Wikipedia-code Wikipedia-independent. This isn't
>very hard, but some stuff needs to be fixed before Wikipedia can really
>be recommended as a general wiki, especially in the interlanguage links
>department (fortunately for us, most other wikis don't have
>multilanguage support at all).
>
>
Which reminds me of the "Sifter" project. I put some software together
for that project, stealing rendering source from the wikipedia software.
But, with TeX support and other things to follow, this will become
impossible to maintain.

So, when we talk of making the wikipedia software more general (and
faster, of course;-), is anyone opposed to throw in some *possible*
restrictions for, say, editing, uploading etc.? They'll be off by
default, so wikipedia won't change a bit, but we could use the same code
with a few changed variables for the Sifter.

Magnus


from_name: Pieter Suurmond

subject: [Wikitech-l] Use brain

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
>
> And programming is not math at all.

Dear Tomasz,
This concluding remark really frightens me.
Kind regards,

Pieter Suurmond


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

body:
It may not be a popular position, but i really do believe in giving a second
(or is it a third) chance. Inevitably, people will be watching the articles
and going over them with a finetooth comb anyway. Still, this could be a
potentially valuable contribution. If asked to vote, I would say yes. Let
Lir, Vera, Adam or whatever contribute, at least on a trial basis.

Danny
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from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Racialisme

body:
Modify an article is our primordial right on wikipedia.
Philippe can create any racist articles he want, we are free to modify it as
we think honestly it have to be modify.
In fact, except Philippe (+ Anthere?) no one in the french wikipedia are
agree with the formulation (not the content) of Philippe articles.
So it's normal that almost each time we wrote an article someone modify it.

Aoineko


from_name: julien tayon

subject: [Wikipedia-l] racialisme

body:
Le Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:36:29 -0800,
inspir? Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> ?crivait la plume alerte :
> But, it is the *article* that lacks objectivity.  The original author
> is not very important.  It is almost always better to fix the article,
> than to delete.  Moving really bad parts to a talk page as a temporary
> measure is fine, of course.
>
Argument ad hominem I know, I am ashamed to write such things.
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

But still, words are not the chidren of pens and papers, they come from
the mind of men, yes you can be neutral, but we are facing someone
deliberatly violating the NPOV as a writer and as an editor. He just
cannot face his bias, and we face a fallacious behaviour.

> There are certain topics on which I do not try to write, because I
> know that NPOV would be too difficult for me on those topics.  My own
> biases, held in check by good judgment, do not prevent me from writing
> on wikipedia.
What do we do in a project based on the assumption that every body will
respect the rules by himself when one does not. Not once, but many times
?

>
....
> Whether it is illegal or not in France to voice unpopular political
> opinions does not matter to wikipedia simply because the wikipedia
> should not voice *any* political opinions, popular or otherwise.  And
> not for reasons of law, but for reasons of NPOV.
Internet is not virtual. We can face trial. On the other hand, it is
nice to have a law, but how do we make arbitration ? There may be some
infringement of the NPOV how do we decide when people claim there are
following the NPOV and that we observe strong conflicts?

>
....

>
> I say the same thing of China, of Iraq, of North Korea, of every state
> that would seek to impose by force their views on what an encyclopedia
> should contain: I am an American, so I will publish what I wish, and
> you can't stop me without blocking the Internet completely.
Don't worry, it is not the country wich will do it but the companies.
The DRM and TCPA project may result in reducing the access to
information for everybody in the world.
>
....
>
> An article on racialism should not implicitly legitimate the concept.
> An article on holocaust denial should not implicitly legitimate the
> concept.  Avoiding these topics is not right.  Treating them with NPOV
> is right.
>
Yes but shoud we present the fact that it is legitimate to think Shoah
never existed, or shoud we state (arbitrary) that revisionism is a far
rightist theory that Shoah never existed. Can you tell me which can be
written in wikipedia, and why ?

> But isn't this a fairly remote possibility anyway?  Does the French
> government really look for people who are writing biased encyclopedia
> articles as part of an international humanitarian project?
Not it is a gamble, just bet that no association like the Jewish Student
Association or SOS racism will never fall on this site, and will to make
a trial. Just hope you'll never have any succes, and it won't happen.
>
> I am not sure I understand you here.  How was French Indymedia shut
> down?  By legal action?  Or because the maintainers chose to close it
> rather than permit articles that disagreed with the general Indymedia
> politics?
They decided to shutdown by themselves after one article on Israel
crossed the line between contra-zionism and anti-semitism.
>
> --Jimbo

Friendly,
--
Julien Tayon
http://www.tayon.net/			       http://libroscope.org/
Si la v?rit? est une femme, essayons de la s?duire avant de la saisir.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Racialisme

body:
Le Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:22:43 -0800,
inspir? Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> ?crivait la plume alerte :
....
>  Accepting that distinction did not make them racist.  Nobody owns the
>  word.
Yes, you are right, so I clearly stated in the definition it was a
"cache sexe" for racism.

>
....
> Why shouldn't they be?  If these phenomena exist, they need to be
> described fairly.  That doesn't mean agreeing with them.  A racist
> article and an article about racism are two different things.
This is easy :
racism means there is a difference between race. If in the article we
show there is no such things as human races, how can you use a term such
anti-caucasian racism without implying first there are different races,
and as a consequence that regarding the race that are concerned the
racism is different !!! If racism are different regarding the ?race? you
can compare them and say : oh anti-negro racism is worse than
anti-caucasian racism or else.
We face a contradiction in term like military music, and it also means
we are not self consistent in our definitions.
>
> >However, I do not support the idea to block people who write racist
> >articles. It's counter-productive. It's better to correct their
> >articles and show them the limit (as defined by the law in France).
> >And this as long as they are few and we can correct their articles.
> >
Yes, but how should  we face a massive and biased change of the
definition.

> The difficulty here is who decides what French law means?
It is secondary, first how do we handle conflicts regarding the
infringement of the editorial rules concerning objectivity.

>
> Eclecticology
Ethylocology,

--
Julien Tayon
http://www.tayon.net/			       http://libroscope.org/
Si la v?rit? est une femme, essayons de la s?duire avant de la saisir.


body:
koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com wrote:

>When I think of wikipedia, somehow I'm reminded of the [[Milgram
>experiment]]--except the seats are really wired.  Currently I would
>not recommend anyone join wikipedia, unless the person knows of some
>obscure Russian filmmaker to write about or some photographic
>technique which calls for dry unemotional writing.  Something about
>the culture here is just *wrong*; it calls to people who itch to have
>a buzzer in hand, and those of us lucky enough not to be on the
>receiving end are still uncomfortable watching the spectacle.
>
>Why are you here?  Are any of you trying to change another person's
>opinion?  If you are, you belong on Usenet, and best of luck.
>
Regretably, you make a good point.  I'm sure that Wikepedia too has its
expected 61% of otherwise good people who will always push the button
when told to do it. Sometimes people just want to be told what to do
even while they're voicing support for some kind of democracy.  They
become so afraid to offend that they no longer trust their.  They're
perfect soldiers -- perfect cannon fodder.  When they defend an opinion
it's with the ardour of a my-country-right-or-wrong patriot.

Eclecticology


body:
>Sometimes people just want to be told what to do
>even while they're voicing support for some kind of democracy.  They
>become so afraid to offend that they no longer trust their.  They're
>perfect soldiers -- perfect cannon fodder.  When they defend an opinion
>it's with the ardour of a my-country-right-or-wrong patriot.

Unfortunately, I chose a poor example.  A better example would be a
scientific experiment which shows person A going about his business
typing up notes, not bothering anybody, but wired to receive electric
shocks, and person B comes along and picks up the buzzer and keeps at
it until person A socks him in the jaw or runs from the room.
Certainly Jimbo has not encouraged anyone to shock anyone else; though
the sadists have found the site anyway.

kq

wikikarma: going away for 16 days; I hope it's enough.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jimbo ? Others advices ?

body:
There are a BIG incomprehension in this debate (perhaps due to our poor
english).
We are not obscurantist who want to hide the reality and show a clean world
where everyone are friends !
I think we all agree the better way to speak about racism is to explain with
a neutral point of view the different way of thinking. And we don't think
the actual version of articles we re-wrote are good articles.

Philippe created articles he describe himself as not NPOV. But more than not
NPOV, many french wikipedians think they were false, racist or anti-Semite.
Create a good article on racism can't be done speedily, so our problem was,
what to do with those article until we will be able to propose a NPOV
version. My solution was to put the article in the talk page and use the
usable information of his articles (there are some) and add our own
research.

Aoineko

> Wow!  This was a fantastic paragraph, buried in Brion's longer letter,
> and it was so good I wanted to just reproduce it here to highlight it.
>
> Brion Vibber wrote:
> > The current versions of these articles aren't necessarily the best way
> > to handle it; I think they would do better to discuss *and debunk*
> > racist notions as much as possible, putting them in the proper context
> > so when some kid hears about "racialism" or "reverse racism" and then
> > looks it up on Wikipedia they'll see a rational, neutral explanation of
> > what makes some people think and speak that way -- so they'll
> > _understand_ why to discount those ideas. Pretending the terms don't
> > exist or saying "oh, that's just what RACISTS think, if you touch them
> > it might rub off on you! stay away!" strikes me as ineffective, or even
> > counterproductive ("look, those Wikipedians are so biased they're afraid
> > to take us on rationally!"). There are lessons to be learned from the
> > evil that men do.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jimbo ? Others advices ?

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

>Maybe Jimbo and Brion should run for office in France...
>
>
And live on Croissaints and Caf? au lait for the rest of their lives? Ugh...

(Speaking of racism;-)

Magnus


subject: [Wikitech-l] cvs hooks

body:
> Why don't we add some hooks in our CVS setup to post a message to this
> list whenever something is committed?  Honestly, I don't care about
> what is committed, but it seems that plenty of people are upset that
> changes are occuring without them knowing.

Useful for coders, probably less useful for the non-coders than a simple
explanation "I did this/that". I try to post such an explanation when I
change something, others don't. That may have something to do with the
fact that such announcements often trigger endless discussions .....

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Racialisme

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

As the discussion goes on, I subscribed.

I accept what people said about these articles. If people want this kind of
articles, so let it be.

But as I do make advertising for Wikipedia to friends and others, I worry
about the reputation of the site.

Le Vendredi 31 Janvier 2003 20:22, vous avez ?crit :
>
> >However, I do not support the idea to block people who write racist
> > articles. It's counter-productive. It's better to correct their articles
> > and show them the limit (as defined by the law in France). And this as
> > long as they are few and we can correct their articles.
>
> The difficulty here is who decides what French law means?

Maybe I misexpress myself. I don't mean to make a court case to someone
writing articles.

The problem is how you define what is NPOV? On this, I agree with Julien that
the border is the Declaration of Human Rights and, when it is not clear
enough, law forbiding racism.
That it may be French or from somewhere else doesn't matter. Most European
countries do have some law about racism. So there IS some consensus among
quite a lot of countries about what is racism and what is not, and this
consensus can be seen in the law.

And then it may be to prevent the author of an article running into troubles
with on of these laws.

Yann

- --
http://www.forget-me.net
Alternatives sur le Net
http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA
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IOd7iQWV4fPvMzo3pGz0CXw=
=Uz5O
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


body:
Hi Taku,

the only thing that annoyed me was the "code in wiki" idea. Everything
else is debatable.

> I agree. If you remember, isn't it good idea to rename
> wikipedia software *or* set up a independent wiki for it?

Rename - yeah, makes sense. When I suggested Wikipedia in some contexts,
people were frightened by the encyclopedia-notion, which would not be
appropriate for their project. (For example, the Open Source Applications
Foundation decided to use the inferior TWiki software for this reason,
among others.) But please, no endless name debate on wikitech. This is
exactly what meta is for.

One advantage of the Wikipedia name is that it might make people more
willing to participate. "Oh, the Wikipedia wiki? Sure, I'd love to help
with that." But I don't know how strong that argument is. I'm not opposed
to a name change.

Independent wiki - I don't really see the point. Meta works, we just need
to define it properly (for the record, I absolutely encourage you to clean
it up, and I don't think it should be used for personal essays, sorry,
Anthere). Using subpages on Meta might also help for organization.

If you can't convince people to clean up Meta, ask me for help ;-)

>> We need to make the Wikipedia-code Wikipedia-independent.

> That is exactly what I meant before (but not all though). If
> wikipedia software becomes more independent, it makes more
> sense to seprate development process from meta-wikipedia.

That's only a valid argument if you move it really away, say, to another
server. hacker.wikipedia.org would *still* be associated with Wikipedia.
We probably do not want such an almost complete separation, though --
people who work on the Wikipedia software will hopefully also be
encouraged to work on Wikipedia, instead of cloning it.

> (I bet no one advocates all of my ideas are wrong because I
> am ignorant, which I admit)

Become a Wikipedia hacker! Free yourself from ignorance! :-)

> What are OpenFacts?

Wikipedia-like wiki specifically for open source documentation
maintenance. Will probably be officially launched next week.  There will
also be Wikipedia-based wikis for two other projects I'm working on.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] flood warning

body:
julien tayon wrote:

>Hello,
>
>example new definition :
>Le nationalisme est une politique dont les objectifs sont
>essentiellement l'ind?pendance, l'unit? et la prosp?rit? de sa propre
>nation et de son peuple.
>
Ceci est bien la d?finition d'un certain sens du mot, mais elle n'est
pas compl?te et ainsi d?cevante.  Je sugg?rerais qu'elle soit am?lior?e.
 Toute seule, ce n'est pas quelque chose pour s'inqui?ter.

L'action de cet individu qui donnerait cause pour faire attention, c'est
qu'il a effac? les pages personelles de trois autres Wikip?diens.  ?a
c'est du vandalisme.

Eclecticology


subject: [Wikitech-l] Experimental recursive wikisoftware is being worked on...

body:
Jason Richey wrote:
>
> If I'm not mistaken, it is totally within YOUR power to get the source
> code from CVS and import it into (Meta?) Wikipedia somewhere.  I don't
> think it's a good idea, but it is possible for you to do.  I think
> that, if you were to perform this exercise, you would see that wiki
> isn't very well suited for source code modification/viewing.
>
> I understand that you want to see if it works.  That's perfectly
> reasonable.  However, you are asking other volunteers, who are already
> busy with other important things, to do something that, for the most
> part, they are not willing to do.
>
> Jason Richey

Dear Wikipedia-developers/maintainers,

I am right at this moment writing such a piece of code in C,
just as an excercise to see if it works and how it 'feels'.
I'll let this list (and especially Takuya Murata) know when I've
finished it, to come and have a look.

Thanks for creating/maintaining Wikipedia!,
Pieter Suuromd

> Takuya Murata wrote:
>
> > I don't aim to discuss which one is better CVS or wiki.
> >
> > First of all, again I am not so sure developing in wiki
> > works. Some think it won't work and some (including me, only
> > me?) think it might.
> >
> > But think of the reality. Don't we need better mechanism for
> > development? Wiki might not work I know that. But I am not
> > sure yet.
> >
> > Why don't we try? Is there any technical trouble to publish
> > wikipedia software sourcecode? It seems to me that it is
> > possible to publish sourcecode and some sysops apply them
> > regularly. If it didn't yield good result, it doesn't hurt
> > anything anyway.
> >
> > Oh, maybe am I only one who believes development in wiki
> > might work? If so, I should do that in my own.
> >
> > >> Probably. If meta is the place only for those who are
> > >> interested in development and administration, I would
> > like
> > >> to participate in meta.
> > >
> > >The best place for discussion of development and
> > administration, the
> > >technical aspects, is right here on wikitech-l.
> >
> > What about the rest of stuff? Like documentation, testing,
> > bug reports and so on. Sourceforge?
> >
> > I understand CVS seems better than wiki. Does anyone give
> > the opinion that the bug reports system of sourceforge is
> > better than meta-wikipedia. If I remember, there is none. I
> > would like to move bug reports in sourceforge to meta-wiki
> > (gradually). Objections?
> >
> > I probably am going to post more detailed documents to meta-
> > wikipedia. (and hopefully more people will help
> > documentation)
> >
> > I know my proposal is not good enough, what else we can do
> > to encourage more people to partipicate development?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> > http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> --
> "Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Challenge to Sheldon Rampton re: global warming

body:
I have to rise to Ed's defense.  I have only seen Ed trying to make sure
all sides of the story are represented.  Presenting global warming as a
scientifically proven "fact" is disengenous, dishonest, and unethical.
It is a popular theory, yes.  But it is also a controversial one.  I
have every confidence in Ed's neutrality.

I myself have read a lot of things that call the global warming as
environmental disaster hypothesis into question.  Two particularly
potent pieces:

    http://reactor-core.org/summers-lease.html
    http://reactor-core.org/skeptical-environmentalist-defended

I do not believe Ed's edits are religiously motivated.  Ed has shown
himself to be very open minded on every topic I have seen him touch.  I
would hope that those complaining about his edits to the global warming
article could learn to show the same open mindedness.

I will reply to specific accusations below.

On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 12:46:28AM -0600, Sheldon Rampton wrote:
>I must say, though, that I find it remarkably hypocritical for Ed to
>accuse *me* of being disingenous with regard to inserting a POV. I'm
>not going to debate him here about the scientific evidence on global
>warming, but it's very clear that he has been assiduously lobbying to
>inject his point of view into the article - a point of view that he
>expressed quite clearly in the Talk page, where he stated, "The whole
>global warming thing is a hoax, and 'warmers' have used statistical
>manipulation (i.e., lied) to bolster their arguments." Clearly, when

I have no religious or ideological motivation for saying this, but I too
have read both sides of the story and agree with Ed the global warming
as an unprecedented and imminent disaster seems like a grand hoax.

>someone resorts to calling other people liars, that's a strong point
>of view, and virtually every edit that Ed has made to this article is
>an attempt to inject this point of view by challenging the
>scientificity of the global warming hypothesis and impugning the
>motives of its proponents.

If you observed the unscientific and unprofessional way that proponents
of global warming have impugned and slandered those who point out flaws
in their reasoning, you would be giving Ed Poor medals for his
Christ-like mildness and forbearance.

>Ed has also injected a point of view into his articles about Sun
>Myung Moon and the Unification Church. The article about Moon reads
>more like worshipful hagiography than a serious attempt at biography.
>It gushes about his "cheerful attitude" and "intolerance of
>injustice," and states that Moon "had a vision or revelation of Jesus
>Christ while praying on top of a tall hill," as though this were a
>documented fact.

Who are you to say that these are not documented facts?  There is
nothing fanciful or alleged about them.  Ed Poor is in a unique
situation to have first or second hand knowledge of those things, since
his Messiah is still alive.

>The article on "Sun Myung Moon/tax case" consists
>primarily of Moon's defense arguments and even includes a
>first-person statement by Ed in which he first states as fact an
>undocumented claim that the government made an offer to "drop all the
>charges," and then writes that this is "a story circulated among us
>UC members." It's clearly POV and a violation of Wikipedia policy to
>inject first-person commentary based on church gossip into the actual
>text of articles.

No, it is not POV.  And here is why:  Ed clearly attributed the story.
As has been drilled into my head over the past few months, NPOV doesn't
mean that common POVs are eliminated, just that they are stated
neutrally and factually.

>ostentatious wealth while expecting his followers to live in poverty.
>I would do this myself, except that I'm not really interested in
>writing about the Unification Church. And since Ed "believes
>passionately" in his church, one of the "best ways to attain
>neutrality" would be to have him be the one who makes these arguments.

You overlook the fact that Ed is putting the facts as he knows them into
the Wikipedia, in the most neutral way he can.  It is bad form to expect
someone to trash their own religion in the name of "neutrality", and I
think you should be ashamed to have suggested such a thing.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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from_name: tarquin

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Challenge to Sheldon Rampton re: global warming (was:
 DW is still here - time for an IP ban)

body:
The 84 countries who've signed the Kyoto Protocol seem to think that
global warming is a real issue.

Seems it's largely the oil men who pass for government in your country
who think otherwise. Might they have an agenda?

Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>Hey, speaking of disingenuous answers, how about applying the NPOV to the [[global warming]] article? Are you able to step back from your advocacy and be neutral for a few minutes, and help us make a balanced article there?
>
>One of the best ways to attain neutrality in a contentious article is for a person who believes passionately in one side to focus on making the best case for the OTHER SIDE. If you could do this, it would be a big help.
>
>Ed Poor
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


from_name: Geoff Burling

body:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com wrote:

> When I think of wikipedia, somehow I'm reminded of the [[Milgram
> experiment]]--except the seats are really wired.  Currently I would
> not recommend anyone join wikipedia, unless the person knows of some
> obscure Russian filmmaker to write about or some photographic
> technique which calls for dry unemotional writing.  Something about
> the culture here is just *wrong*; it calls to people who itch to have
> a buzzer in hand, and those of us lucky enough not to be on the
> receiving end are still uncomfortable watching the spectacle.

That is a pessimistic view of Wikipedia in its current state. Accurate,
from what I've observed of certain articles, but still pessimistic.

Unfortunately, the evaluation of mankind's accumulated knowledge frequently
results in the same kind of dust-ups we're seeing in Wikipedia. For
example, Eric Thompson, while undoubtedly the most learned & influential
scholar of Mayan history & culture in recent times, nonetheless delayed
the successful translation of Mayan inscriptions for a generation
because of his own biasses and a tenacious insistence on his own POV.
For an example outside of the humanities, I am reminded of an attempt by
one of the leading US medical journals -- I forget if it was the New
England Journal of Medicine or the Journal of the AMA -- to review the
lauded discoveries that journal had published a few years prior: after
a few months they discontinued this series, having discovered
that far too many of these articles turned out to have been bad science![*]

[*] I mention this story not to impeach science or the scientific
method, but to show that the scientific method is not always rigorously
applied -- nor always consistently.
>
> Why are you here?  Are any of you trying to change another person's
> opinion?  If you are, you belong on Usenet, and best of luck.
>
Speaking for myself, I'd say that I'm attempting to argue the following
thesis: "Here is some valuable information you should know. Read it." And
if someone believes that her/his information is either just as valuable
or more valuable, then as Jimbo is running Wikipedia at this time, they
are welcome to add it to what I'm providing.

At one time I thought I could very craftily tilt the content of Wikipedia
towards my own POV, but as it accumulates more articles, this becomes less
possible. Let me offer an analogy to explain my point. Suppose that I
want a landscape to be nothing but forest, instead of a yucky grassland,
& so I spend my time & efforts digging up the grasslands & planting trees.
After some time at this, I realize just how hard it is to plant even as
much as a few acres of trees, & accept the fact that there will be
grasslands in this landscape.

Of course, the conflicts seem to focus on the prime bits of real estate
that everyone wants to garden their own way. But I cannot help but wonder
that when a Wikipedian has won the battle & one article reflects her/his
own "N"POV, if that Wikipedian follows the hyperlinks to see whether
the other articles subvert the thesis proven after so much labor.

Geoff