from_name: Alphax

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>> But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly
>> confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many
>> newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
>
>
> I don't know about that.
>
> I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to
> remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or  even
> knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.
>

My first edit:

16:37, 21 September 2004 (hist) (diff) Roll-playing (Added D&D reference)

My first VFD edit, more than 100 edits later:

06:58, 27 October 2004 (hist) (diff) m Wikipedia:Votes for
deletion/Zuckermann ghil'ad (rv vandalism)  (top)

My first VFD rampage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Alphax&offset=20041117041416&limit=50

So it took me from September 21 (about the day I discovered Wikipedia)
to November 16 (after 2 months of doing very little) to fully find and
start voting at VFD.

But as you can see from the above, I first stumbled upon VFD a month
after stumbling upon Wikipedia itself.

And evidently whilst RC patrolling no less :)

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFC7z1K/RxM5Ph0xhMRAwkgAJ9oJl9w4cGqQX+Xhde3hmcr0uEqnACeIahk
e5FCAFAqh0H5DrB1nNcDckU=
=hoaU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: John Pozniak

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikicooks

body:
Cormac, you might want to look at:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook

Ciao, and happy cooking,

John Pozniak (aka Gentgeen)

----

Cormac wrote:

Here's pitching an idea that I think would have to
work..

It's Wikicooks (or something like that). In other
words, a repository
of recipes in the wiki-way, ie. collated from all
around the world and
available in a multitude of languages. As far as I
know, there's no
really good repository of recipes online - I was
looking the other
day, and found some okay resources but nothing that we
couldn't do
better ourselves. And of course, it'd be free and
open-content..

So, opinions? My only other question then is where
this should be
created/hosted - in Wikibooks, Wikicities or a new
wiki of its own?

Cheers,

Cormac

PS - I had this idea ages ago and before I heard about
the Danish Open
source beer - but wouldn't we be able to take up that
idea?
Wikipedia's tasty range of pasta sauces? Or is that
just cheesy?


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikicooks


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikitech-l] A few old requests

body:
> > Any special requirements for it?
>
> It'll be a Wiki to discuss the Polish Wikimedia local chapter, Angela
> said it'd be okay to create it - the Wiki should probably be the same
> as nl.wikimedia. Nothing else to mention besides that, I think.

Are you sure you need it to be the same as nl.wikimedia? Are you aware
they don't allow anonymous edits?

Angela


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unusual block

body:
On 8/2/05, gutergeiger2 at t-online.de <gutergeiger2 at t-online.de> wrote:
> User:Mikkalai blocked me on August 8 for trolling.

I don't understand how these edits were trolling. Users can be blocked
for being disruptive, but I don't see any evidence of that here.
Admittedly, the user hasn't done a lot of useful work in the article
namespace yet, but he's only been editing for a week and only made 25
edits in total anyway.

As far as I can tell, "Chosen One" wasn't warned before the block and
had never had any contact with Mikkalai.

I also don't understand why the user's user page and talk page were
deleted. They had nothing offensive on them and the deletion hides the
fact from non-admins that the user wasn't blocked and hadn't made
inappropriate user page edits, which is what is implied by the
deletion.

Angela


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] A few old requests

body:
Angela wrote:

>>>Any special requirements for it?
>>>
>>>
>>It'll be a Wiki to discuss the Polish Wikimedia local chapter, Angela
>>said it'd be okay to create it - the Wiki should probably be the same
>>as nl.wikimedia. Nothing else to mention besides that, I think.
>>
>>
>
>Are you sure you need it to be the same as nl.wikimedia? Are you aware
>they don't allow anonymous edits?
>
>Angela
>
Hoi,
Another thing that is different is that we have a do not crawl sign on
this wiki so the discussions are not available on google. So the public
rows on nl.wikimedia are less public :)
We do indeed not allow anonymous writes, however we allow anonymous reads.
Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Chris Lüer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Is this right?

body:
At 07:36 PM 8/2/2005, Skyring wrote:
>  Anyone ever heard of the British Royal von Wettin
>dynasty?

It's technically correct. The House of Windsor was originally called
Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is a branch of the House of
Wettin. If a dynasty includes rulers of different countries at the
same time, as was the case with the Wettins, people often identify
sub-dynasties, and so Windsor/Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is a sub-dynasty of Wettin.

         Chl


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

subject: RMS (was: Re: [WikiEN-l] Hollywood film composer enquiry)

body:
> It's generally frowned upon to write an article on yourself, or
> something you do, or even do any major contributions on it, no matter
> how notable it is.

Hehe, you do know Richard Stallman has been POV-warring
like there's no tomorrow on articles relating to himself
and his projects :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Rmstallman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/128.30.16.48

This is my favorite edit summary:

"GNU system is nearly always used with Linux. Rewrite text implying it is
correct to call the combination "Linux"."

But we're nice to n00bz0rs so he didn't get kicked out
or anything :) He did get reverted once or twice...

On the subject of Stallman - Jimbo mentioned that the
problems with the GFDL were being addressed at the level
of the license itself. That sounds good but is there any
time frame for it? Or is it something that will happen
around the time the Hurd is released ;)

Regards,
Haukur

P.S. And the guy is my hero even though I'm making fun
of him. I got to attend a lecture of his early this year.
He mentioned Wikipedia and said that last time he heard
it had about 200,000 articles. "440,000 in the English
version alone", I corrected him. "Wow.", he replied.


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [WikiEN-l] Archives

body:
On 02/08/05, andyl2004 at sympatico.ca <andyl2004 at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Following up on my earlier question regarding this lists archives and google - is it really necessary to have the archives publicly available rather than open only to subscribers to the list? And if it is necessary to make them publicly available do they really have to be accessible to google?

Why not? If you want to say something you don't want the world to
hear, saying it on a mailing list seems a poor choice of place to say
it...

Dan


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] [mail@thijsvandomburg.nl: Sesame Street]

body:
Andrew Venier (avenier at venier.net) [050802 15:57]:

> If you look at the original post, it *was* a private message to
> jwales at bomis.com, who then forwarded it to the list.

Yeah, but *this* post *was* to wikien-l itself.

- d.


from_name: Wiki Byortek

subject: [Wikitech-l] automatic logout after a session timeout

body:
Hi

How is it possible to disable or set the automatic logout
after a session timeout ?

When the user is logged in for a too long time without
uploading some work, he can't upload anymore, he needs
to logout and log in again in order to upload again.

Note that my wiki disables editing for non logged users

Thank you


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Sanity check re: recreation of deleted page for project
	purposes

body:
I'm working on Wikiproject Scientology ([[|WP:SCN]]). There was an article
which would be of great use, [[List of articles about Scientology]]. It got
VFDed in April as redundant with [[Category:Scientology]] and its subcats
(which it arguably was).

Recreating deleted material in your userspace is frowned upon. This list
was deemed redundant in the article space, but it'd be very useful to have
on hand for the project space.

While this strikes me as mostly okay, I have a few doubts. And since
wikien-l is the home of rational and reasoned discussion, I thought I'd ask
what you lot think before proceeding to actually do so.

- d.


from_name: Kyle Lutze

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks

body:
I've also wanted something like this for a long time, but you must keep
something in mind, we must keep a very very very close eye on vandalism
because it would not be good if somebody knew chemistry and added an
extra ingredient that makes the recipe poisonous.
Just my .02 otherwise I hope it works out

Kyle

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 9:53 pm, Anthere wrote:
> Careful, ? dear sociologist.
> Recipes ... and where they should be, is a slipery issue :-)
>
> ant
>
>
> Cormac Lawler a ?crit:
>> Here's pitching an idea that I think would have to work..
>> It's Wikicooks (or something like that). In other words, a repository
>> of recipes in the wiki-way, ie. collated from all around the world and
>> available in a multitude of languages. As far as I know, there's no
>> really good repository of recipes online - I was looking the other
>> day, and found some okay resources but nothing that we couldn't do
>> better ourselves. And of course, it'd be free and open-content..
>> So, opinions? My only other question then is where this should be
>> created/hosted - in Wikibooks, Wikicities or a new wiki of its own?
>> Cheers,
>> Cormac
>> PS - I had this idea ages ago and before I heard about the Danish Open
>> source beer - but wouldn't we be able to take up that idea?
>> Wikipedia's tasty range of pasta sauces? Or is that just cheesy?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks


from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks

body:
On 8/2/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Careful, ? dear sociologist.
> Recipes ... and where they should be, is a slipery issue :-)
>
> ant
>
>

I see.. though I don't understand.. :)

Cormac


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks


from_name: closedshop

subject: [Wikitech-l] Schoolbooks written open source and printed by pdf

body:
Hi

there is a big problem, the government cannot finance the schoolbooks
anymore and there is in germany as well a tendency to have central tests
for certificates, this means a central contrywide curriculum of
excercises to do and test.

We thought about business firms spending money for the books but this
would be lobby, to have a biology book by a genetic firm advertising the
gen tomatoes ?

School is not for work only, but for building human beeings.

Then We thought about wiki schoolbooks,

So we need a technical platform which is differentiated for the
individuel types to learn:  math, language, biology, social  sport etc.

Then we have the central curriculum in which class or age which topic
has to be done,

Each hour for a learning unit / lesson  could be described by wiki texts.

So e.g. class 8.th  first term = in biology 15 Lessons about topic xy.

So we get a plan in wiki which is a category page and then 15 subpages.

Many students, teachers and pupils could help to built the wiki-

And then: we need a pdf generator, so that  each teacher can choose a
lesson unit for the next half year and print a  pdf out of it.

This book he can mail, but as well print on demand (or books on demand)
can be printed.

So the school is printing the books itself from wikipeda.

I want to see a wikipedia book in the schools.

maybe there could be as well a certain platform for it ?

Would be nice to have this discussed - especially from the german tech
admins ?

Thanks


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks

body:
On 8/2/05, Kyle Lutze <kylelutze at cox.net> wrote:
> I've also wanted something like this for a long time, but you must keep
> something in mind, we must keep a very very very close eye on vandalism
> because it would not be good if somebody knew chemistry and added an
> extra ingredient that makes the recipe poisonous.
> Just my .02 otherwise I hope it works out
>
> Kyle
>

Is there a combination of ingredients that, when mixed, become
poisonous? I appreciate your point, though I'm a little sceptical..

Cormac


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikicooks

body:
On 8/2/05, John Pozniak <gentgeen at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Cormac, you might want to look at:
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook
>
> Ciao, and happy cooking,
>
> John Pozniak (aka Gentgeen)
>

Ah, great! Thanks very much. And I see it's in various languages - buenissima!

Cormac


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikicooks


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Archives

body:
On 8/2/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02/08/05, andyl2004 at sympatico.ca <andyl2004 at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Following up on my earlier question regarding this lists archives and google - is it really necessary to have the archives publicly available rather than open only to subscribers to the list? And if it is necessary to make them publicly available do they really have to be accessible to google?
>
> Why not? If you want to say something you don't want the world to
> hear, saying it on a mailing list seems a poor choice of place to say
> it...
>
>
> Dan

I think he is reffering to the guy who got a private mail forwarded to
the list and wished his name off it. That sort of thing. I think that
those rare cases can be handled on a case by case basis and removed by
a developer.

Ohh, and amongst the reasons for the archives is so you can link it
from wikipedia so those  poor sods who don't subscribe can read an
important message. So making it only for subscribers would be bad.

--gkhan


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Jimmy Wales wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
>
>>Andrew Venier (avenier at venier.net) [050802 15:57]:
>>
>>
>>
>>>If you look at the original post, it *was* a private message to
>>>jwales at bomis.com, who then forwarded it to the list.
>>
>>
>>
>>Yeah, but *this* post *was* to wikien-l itself.
>
>
> And to be clear, I do support that we erase the poor fellow's name from
> the archives.  Especially now that I've teased him.
>
> --Jimbo

Does that mean that AndyL will get his name erased as well?

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFC74uU/RxM5Ph0xhMRA25zAJ0XXfBYf5QA9Ohkm2hn0Zw/cxrM1wCeK0ms
34Pdyuq4krZpslSKlZEMfLs=
=hrCe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] languages that do not have "correct spelling"
	standards

body:
I take this theme up since it is not only a Ultimate Wiktionary problem
... it is an actual problem for many minor languages.

When there are several possibilities to write a word within a language
these should be treated on an equal level. No-one may ever discriminate
one of the possible spellings. The important thing is that if these
different spellings can be attributed to a ceratain "branch" it should
be done. Those who cannot be classified just receive the general
language classification. Gerard will be able to explain this better I
suppose,  but bein on his way to wikimania I am not so sure if he has
time to explain.

Anyway: I am a translator for EN-DE and IT-DE now we have a pretty weird
situation with German. There was a spelling reform that in a first place
was adopted by all federal states and this year in autumn the new
spelling should have become the only valid one... now in Germany these
decisions are not taken centrally by the federal government in Berlin,
but by the ministries for education and culture of the single federal
states. Some of these federal states, among them Bavaria, will not
accept the deadline of this year in autumn, but accept old and new
writing. It is a funny situation for my job, since it could mean that a
customer tells you that he wants the old spelling or the new spelling
depending on where he lives and what he prefers or in most cases they
will not even bother how things are written, since many don't even know
the new spelling rules ... it is really a strange situation: imagine
someone in Bavaria translates a text - legally he/she may use whatever
ortography he/she likes - if the customer lives in a state where the old
ortography is not valid anymore this can lead to a bad surprise.

But let's talk about minor languages. We have some difficulties on the
nds wiktionary - people think that the only way to write correct is
following the Sass ortography. Some days ago I had a longer telephone
conversation with one of the directors of the Institut f?r
niederdeutsche Sprache (institute for nds) - he explained that there are
at least six different acknowledged ways of writing nds and if we go to
details 200 to 400 ways of writing (including also dictionaries from
around 1920 etc.) can be defined - so accepting only one way of writing
is a discrimination to my opinion. They all need to be accepted - the
important thing is that there is a distinction from one to the other.
How we could achieve this - in the actual wiktionary signing all non
classified words just with nds. Words that can be classified receive
nds-ABC, nds-DEF, nds-SASS, nds-xyz. So not only the single term is to
be classified, but also the definition (if possible) - if it is not
classified there's simply no reference to a certain class.

We have a similar situation for Sicilian - it can be subdivided at least
into the different provinces, but even more detailed if one wants. The
stange thing is: there never was any discrimination, never any struggle,
some discussions, yes, but no-one ever tried to impose "one possibility
of writing a word" as the ultimate one.

Now the next problem is: if we follow the wiki-way and it comes to a
vote: if people who are convinced that ABC is the only way of possible
writing start up with a project and after some time create the vote they
all normally vote for that writing, but is there a real majority? What
if there are institutions that know more about that and these are just
not being considered since people are tooooo fond of one way of writing,
don't think about democracy and don't think about the damage they would
do to their own language an culture excluding all other possibilities?

What happens to people who would like to contribute if a two huge
ressources are starting to be non-democratic?

What happens to the language of a country/region if only one way of
spelling is considered and all the otheres are discriminated?

What happens to the culture in this case?

Even if many will not agree, I am convinced that this situation can be
compared to some african languages where culture is being lost since
people don't study in their own language, but only in a foreign
language. Language transmits culture, language transmits feelings and so
much more ... it is not possible to exclude existing language (or better
spelling) to favour a particular one only because that is the beloved
one for some people.

Going back to UW: for us every spelling that is correct has its right
"to live" - and so it will be there. If there are more possibilities:
you will find them - no discrimination. UW is there not only for the big
languages - I see it as a very particular chance for minority languages
since using it at a certain stage we will be able to create even a
papiamento-zulu glossary - something no editor would ever think about.
Something that will make the culture of many of those small cultural
groups live on.

Ultimate Wiktionary maybe is a particular name - maybe with another name
there would have been less problems ;-) but be sure: it is only a name -
it came out in a conversation, since for some language combinations it
will really be the ultimate solution since otherwise it would have been
very likely that some languages where we now only have approx. 100 terms
would never have had the possibility to have an own place to grow and
cultivate their glossaries.

Often there were loads of discussions with colleagues, people involved
in the localisation and language industry, institutions and whatever ...
we did not just say: let's do it in some way - this "let's do it in some
way that we do not need to do the same work over and over again" for me
started on 31 august 2004 - almost a year now. Before that I already
worked on finding a solution for a glossary repository in many languages
- when I found wiktionary I thought: this is near to what I want, but I
missed the interchangeability - I could not create a DE-FR combination
on the Italian wiktionary ... interwiki-links then were a step ahead,
but it still was not what I imagined. And then came that day when I
noted the first templates on it.wiktionary.org ... it was the beginning
of an amazing adventure - maybe the most incredible one I can imagine
for people working with languages. Things went ahead - hours and hours
of discussion, of sorting out, of talking with people ... I suppose many
of you cannot even imagine what it means to reach almost a dream dreamt
by many linguist over and over again - for years and years ... or maybe
it would be better to say decades.

We are almost there: this comunity is part of it - isn't that great?
Isn't only the thought to be part of a language and culture preserving
project that allows completely new results exciting? Many of us (and I
am not talking about people working on wiktionary) think so - why do you
think so many colleagues answer to a simple mail to a mailing list of
translators where I asked for co-operation for Wikimania? Those people
know my postings (I often write about wiktionary and ultimate wiktionary
- to the lists and on my blog). We are on a right way - it is not an
easy way - of course there will be problems to solve, but it will be fun
to solve them.

Hmmm ... now this mail became much longer than I really wanted ... it is
time to go to bed ... tomorrow I have the last day to finish my
translation works and the day after wikimania starts ... and I don't
know what expects our team of translators.

Well, I don't write often, but when I start it is hard to stop.

Ciao and have a great time!

Sabine

*****
Sabine Cretella
Translations IT-DE, EN-DE
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
skype:sabinecretella
Meetingplace for translators.
http://www.wesolveitnet.com

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Habj

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: NPOV: Fetus personhood - end of thread - I mean it

body:
On 7/31/05, steve v <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  Not to say that a certain
> political view is a crank view, but the view that the
> fetus isnt human *is* a crank view --or mere political
> terminology. What's the difference from an NPOV?

FWIW, the clippings off my toe nails are also, by definition, human.
Human doesn't equal life. Whether or not a featus is a life - that was
the question, right?

/Habj


from_name: Ogdenjaeww at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Pattern of blocking AOL/IP addresses.

body:
"Re:  Your user name or IP address has been _blocked_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy)  by _CryptoDerk_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CryptoDerk) .
The reason given is this:
vandal
You can _email  CryptoDerk_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/CryptoDerk)  or one of the other _administrators_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_administrators)   to discuss the block. You may also edit
_your user talk page_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Mytalk)  if  you
wish. If you believe that our _blocking  policy_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy)  was violated, you may discuss the block publicly on
the _WikiEN-l mailing  list_
(http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l) . Note that you may not use the "email this user" feature unless you
have a Wikipedia account and a valid email address registered in your _user
preferences_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences) .

Your IP address is 207.200.116.195. Please include  this address, along with
your username, in any queries you make."
-----
This type of block happens repeatedly, not because of anything I  do but
because AOL assigns me an IP number that is frequently used by  vandal(s).  Please
see my User Page -   WBardwin/AOL Block  Collection.  The admin responses I
get on these occasions are  generally positive and helpful, and many times they
have been able to release  the block so I can get some work done.  Today,
however, I am not able to  access any administrators pages and have resorted to
e-mail.  I would like  to see this problem resolved as these undeserved blocks
are very annoying  and time consuming.  However, my discussions with AOL do
not lead me to  believe that they would be willing to block or even chastise the
 guilty vandals.  Would the community of administrators please  discuss and
address this ongoing problem?  I'm sure I'm not the only "good"  user being
impacted by this policy.  Thank you.
WBardwin.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks

body:
On 8/3/05, Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/3/05, Cormac Lawler <cormaggio at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there a combination of ingredients that, when mixed, become
> > poisonous? I appreciate your point, though I'm a little sceptical..
> >
> > Cormac
>
> If you ate enough apple seeds, the synide but add up enough to make
> you feel a bit off. But you'd have to eat A LOT.

Right, so here's my recipe for "Mamma mia - Wikipedia's *special*
pomodoro sauce":

6 Tomatoes (preferably plum)
1 large Spanish Onion (diced)
3 cloves of garlic
Handful of basil leaves (roughly chopped)
Olive oil (preferably extra virgin)
The seeds of 200 apples
Salt
Pepper
etc.

Anyone smell something fishy? :)

Cormac


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks

body:
Careful, ? dear sociologist.
Recipes ... and where they should be, is a slipery issue :-)

ant

Cormac Lawler a ?crit:
> Here's pitching an idea that I think would have to work..
>
> It's Wikicooks (or something like that). In other words, a repository
> of recipes in the wiki-way, ie. collated from all around the world and
> available in a multitude of languages. As far as I know, there's no
> really good repository of recipes online - I was looking the other
> day, and found some okay resources but nothing that we couldn't do
> better ourselves. And of course, it'd be free and open-content..
>
> So, opinions? My only other question then is where this should be
> created/hosted - in Wikibooks, Wikicities or a new wiki of its own?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cormac
>
> PS - I had this idea ages ago and before I heard about the Danish Open
> source beer - but wouldn't we be able to take up that idea?
> Wikipedia's tasty range of pasta sauces? Or is that just cheesy?


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikicooks


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Example vs. Original research

body:
On 8/3/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Skyring wrote:
> > The difference is that some people actively argue that the earth is
> > not a sphere, whereas those who argue that Paris is not the capital of
> > France so far have kept their activities secret.
> >
> > If a fact is contentious, then it should be backed up with a cite.
>
> I can't agree with you that flat earthers constitute a sufficiently
> respectable or large position that we need to treat the roundness of the
> earth as the sort of fact that necessitates a citation.

Why not? We put a bit of effort into debunking the Apollo hoax people,
and they are equally round the bend wacko. There's a lot of material
on wikipedia that is aimed at countering laughable notions. Take a
look at Papal Tiara, for example - a featured article, apparently, yet
it goes into some detail in countering the VFD claim - namely that
there is an inscription on the Pope's crown which adds up to 666. This
is just bizarre - there's no writing on the tiara and even if you
could tot it up and get 666, then so bloody what?

It's not just a cite, either. This thing has its own article, complete
with photographs and circles and arrows and notes on the back
explaining what the circles and arrows mean. Perhaps rather than
voicing opposition to a notional cite, you should look into what sort
of rubbish is appearing on your own site.

If you want to appear consistent, that is.
--
Peter in Canberra


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: SJ

subject:
[Wikipedia-l]
	Free ipods, Wikimania media contest, and textual bliss

body:
Hello all,

The Wikimania Writing and Media contest will be handing out two ipods
(multilingual), a dozen digital collections of world literature (in
English), and over a dozen technical books (in German and English), to
the best overall media and writing nominations.  Today is the last day
to nominate your favorite Wikimedia works!  At least one prize will be
awarded in every category... currently we have three or fewer
submissions  http://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Competitions

Please add nominations to the list here:
  Media - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Media_Competition
  Writing - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_writing_contest_nominations

SJ

--
++SJ


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Free ipods, Wikimania media contest,
	and textual bliss

body:
On 8/3/05, SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Today is the last day to nominate your favorite Wikimedia works!
> At least one prize will be awarded in every category... currently we
> have three or fewer submissions
... in the following categories:
   * Sketches and Artwork
   * Quote and dictionary collcetions
   * Audio
   * Video (only one submission so far!  one more is guaranteed to
garner at least a sexy spherical t-shirt)

(and we are short on submissions in the Animation division as well)

> Please add nominations to the list here:
>   Media - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Media_Competition
>   Writing - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_writing_contest_nominations

Cheers,
  SJ


subject: [WikiEN-l] Is this right?

body:
On 03/08/05, Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:
> I just took a look at [[George VI of the United Kingdom]], which has
> been protected by jtdirl, citing persistent vandalism. jtdirl is a
> participant on the lame edit war running on this and similar pages,
> and has naturally protected it in his preferred version.
>
> The vandalism he's protecting? See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_VI_of_the_United_Kingdom&diff=prev&oldid=20113005
> for an example. Anyone ever heard of the British Royal von Wettin
> dynasty?

Reading [[Wettin (dynasty)]] shows the "vandalism" edit to be, well,
exactly that.

Thiis would be a good use for per-article blocking.

Dan


from_name: Dori

subject:
[Foundation-l] Legal implications of hosting wikis outside of
	United States?

body:
On 8/3/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
<snip>
> What would be the legal implications of serving some content from
> outside of the United States, in comparison to merely running them
> through a local caching proxy?

Probably censorship. I remember the hassles Google and Yahoo had to go
through because of French laws. Believe it or not the US probably
still has the "freer" speech out there. I suppose it would be OK if we
could move them back to the US in case of trouble. Which would mean
not having the local chapters associated with the content somehow. At
the very least some lawyer out there should make sure the GFDL is fine
in the proposed hosting country.


subject:
[Foundation-l] Legal implications of hosting wikis outside
	of	United States?

body:
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 7:45 am, Dori wrote:
> On 8/3/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>>  What would be the legal implications of serving some content from
>>  outside of the United States, in comparison to merely running them
>>  through a local caching proxy?
>
> Probably censorship. I remember the hassles Google and Yahoo had to go
> through because of French laws. Believe it or not the US probably
> still has the "freer" speech out there. I suppose it would be OK if we
> could move them back to the US in case of trouble. Which would mean
> not having the local chapters associated with the content somehow. At
> the very least some lawyer out there should make sure the GFDL is fine
> in the proposed hosting country.

Well, if this is the case, should we also make sure that the db is
constantly kept synced back to the US in case the country just goes in
and rips it out? Not saying france will, but another country might.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Is this right?

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

> > I just took a look at [[George VI of the United Kingdom]], which has
> > been protected by jtdirl, citing persistent vandalism. jtdirl is a
> > participant on the lame edit war running on this and similar pages,
> > and has naturally protected it in his preferred version.
>
>An anonymous ip number vandalized the page repeatedly and the vandalism
>has been reverted repeatedly by a few different people.

I don't see how this is vandalism. It looks like a disagreement over
a minor editorial difference.

         Chl


body:
Haukur ?orgeirsson (haukurth at hi.is) [050803 07:24]:

> This is my favorite edit summary:
> "GNU system is nearly always used with Linux. Rewrite text implying it is
> correct to call the combination "Linux"."

Hah. Tell him to reread [[GNU/Linux naming controversy]]. It's even got an
FSF graphic as the image ;-)

"Correct" is, of course, not at issue, even if I pretty much agree with
him. NPOV is the issue. This is not what a crusader wants to hear, even if
he's mostly right about things.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Archives

body:
andyl2004 at sympatico.ca (andyl2004 at sympatico.ca) [050803 07:28]:

> Following up on my earlier question regarding this lists archives and google - is it really necessary to have the archives publicly available rather than open only to subscribers to the list? And if it is necessary to make them publicly available do they really have to be accessible to google?

Yes and yes. It's an open list for an open source project, and that's how
people look stuff up and research and learn what's been done before and so
on. It seems to me to be basically ridiculous to suggest it should be
otherwise. Of what possible benefit to the project would it be to keep it
closed? Whose secrets are we protecting? Every edit on the wiki is
attributed and researchable, why not the list?

- d.


from_name: Jim Breen

body:
[Muke Tever (Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions) writes:]
>> Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.
>> >>>
>> JB> Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
>> JB> If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
>> JB> English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.
>> >>>
>> >> Many languages have different accepted spellings for the same word.
>> >> Japanese with the three character sets. German with umlauts and ae, oe
>> >> and ue or ss instead of ??. Esperanto accepts cx and ch for ^c. Dutch
>> >> had at one time a preferred and a progressive spelling and English has
>> >> some variants depending on the locality it is spoken. I'm sure it
>> >> doesn't end there and it is something a multilingual dictionary has to
>> >> cater for. Adding common misspellings shouldn't be all that hard. They
>> >> simply need a possibility to be marked as such. The misspellings don't
>> >> exactly have to be shown either (except maybe on demand), but when
>> >> somebody uses them to search the database, the entries they point to
>> >> should be found.
>> >
>> > Have a look at the latest design it caters for having some Miss
>> > Pellings.
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage#Only_correct_spelling

Yes, it mention "incorrect spelling", but is silent on the matter of
valid spelling varinats.

>> What about languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards?

Indeed.

If you look at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage
you'll see Gerard and I have been, er, discussing this matter.

Cheers

Jim

--
Jim Breen                                http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,               Tel: +61 3 9905 9554
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia                  Fax: +61 3 9905 5146
(Monash Provider No. 00008C)                $B%8%`!&%V%j!<%s(B@$B%b%J%7%eBg3X(B


body:
Greetings,

[Sabine Cretella ([Wiktionary-l] languages that do not have "correct spelling"	standards) writes:]
>> I take this theme up since it is not only a Ultimate Wiktionary problem
>> ... it is an actual problem for many minor languages.
>>
>> When there are several possibilities to write a word within a language
>> these should be treated on an equal level. No-one may ever discriminate
>> one of the possible spellings.

I think this goes to the heart of the issue, and I totally agree with
you.

>> The important thing is that if these
>> different spellings can be attributed to a ceratain "branch" it should
>> be done. Those who cannot be classified just receive the general
>> language classification.

Hear, hear.

>> Anyway: I am a translator for EN-DE and IT-DE now we have a pretty weird
>> situation with German. There was a spelling reform that in a first place
>> was adopted by all federal states and this year in autumn the new
>> spelling should have become the only valid one... now in Germany these
>> decisions are not taken centrally by the federal government in Berlin,
>> but by the ministries for education and culture of the single federal
>> states. Some of these federal states, among them Bavaria, will not
>> accept the deadline of this year in autumn, but accept old and new
>> writing. It is a funny situation for my job, since it could mean that a
>> customer tells you that he wants the old spelling or the new spelling
>> depending on where he lives and what he prefers or in most cases they
>> will not even bother how things are written, since many don't even know
>> the new spelling rules ... it is really a strange situation: imagine
>> someone in Bavaria translates a text - legally he/she may use whatever
>> ortography he/she likes - if the customer lives in a state where the old
>> ortography is not valid anymore this can lead to a bad surprise.

And in many countries there is no concept of a "correct" spelling or
orthgraphy, and there would be outrage if an education ministry  tried
to enforce one. In Australia, for example, we generally use "British"
spellings (of which there can be more than one for words such as
recognize/recognise), but a few words sometimes take the "American"
spelling. This is just a matter of usage. The main dictionary published
here (Macquarie) records what is used, but makes no attempt to define
what is correct. In Japan the education ministry issues advisories on
matters such as which kanji should be used, or which portions of a word
should be in kana, but the actual usage is varied and accepted.  In
fact, writers often adopt their own styles on this matter. (The big
"Daijirin" dictionary published by Sanseido has "ikebana" written four
different ways within the one entry.)

With my Japanese-English dictionary I get occasional requests that I mark
the English translational equivalents according to where that form of
word is used. In fact it is very difficult to do so. While there are
indeed two broad groupings in English spelling, when you get to the
detailed level you can almost never say spelling X is only used in
country Y, or in country A spelling B is the only one used.

Cheers

Jim

--
Jim Breen                                http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,               Tel: +61 3 9905 9554
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia                  Fax: +61 3 9905 5146
(Monash Provider No. 00008C)                ???????@??????


subject: [WikiEN-l] Is this right?

body:
I just took a look at [[George VI of the United Kingdom]], which has
been protected by jtdirl, citing persistent vandalism. jtdirl is a
participant on the lame edit war running on this and similar pages,
and has naturally protected it in his preferred version.

The vandalism he's protecting? See
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_VI_of_the_United_Kingdom&diff=prev&oldid=20113005
for an example. Anyone ever heard of the British Royal von Wettin
dynasty?

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Delirium

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> What would be the legal implications of serving some content from
> outside of the United States, in comparison to merely running them
> through a local caching proxy?

It would certainly make things more complex than having them all in one
country.  Is there really any benefit to introducing the added
complexity?  London to New York ping times are around 60-80 milliseconds
roundtrip, so physical location isn't even noticeable compared to the
other sources of latency.

-Mark


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RMS

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:
> "GNU system is nearly always used with Linux. Rewrite text implying it is
> correct to call the combination "Linux"."
>

And when I go insane and install [[GNU Hurd]]?

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFC8B37/RxM5Ph0xhMRAzYkAJ4j+bzi5zx1zQ8BluDvX/Dr/bnqywCgmu48
TQ1IkM5E70aLradSQmF89+U=
=4vrY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Ray Saintonge wrote:
> The irony with this is that having his name public helps in the
> protection of his copyrights. :-)
>

My name isn't on Wikipedia, but you can find it if you know where to
look. Does that count?

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFC8B7Y/RxM5Ph0xhMRA/zfAJ9t5dlVbf96T4SPukYvRB8YIao/hwCgqmYE
QAjSKThjtO2BNEUhy8WamVA=
=8gqY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Problem with WikiEN-l archive

body:
Eeeek, it is badly broken! What's happened to our archive?

- d.

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Something seems to have gone wrong with the archive at
<http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-August/
date.html#67>.  It's as if all the messages have lost the first few
lines.  I don't know if it's affecting the mailing list, as I only read
via the archive.


from_name: Jean-Baptiste Soufron

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Explicit copyright assignment to wikimedia
	foundation

body:
I was answering Tim Starling who said :

"I'm not convinced the Foundation should want people to assign
copyright to it though. Isn't it a lot
safer if we don't have ownership of any of the content?"

And I do agree that it is definitely safer, avoiding us to be sued
for copyvio.

I would also like to remember that many legislations forbid copyright
assignment outside of very protective formal rules and that it would
be extremely difficult to implement such a solution.

Le 24 juil. 05 ? 22:28, Alexandre Dulaunoy a ?crit :

> On 22/Jul/05 12:21 +0200, Jean-Baptiste Soufron wrote:
>
>
>> It's definitely safer and much more clear !
>>
>
> What  is "definitely safer  and much  more clear"  ?  with  or without
> copyright assignment to the wikimedia foundation ?
>
> The solution for the  GNU Project is quite nice as there  is a kind of
> "protective clause" in the case of "going crazy".
>
> --
> --                   Alexandre Dulaunoy (adulau) -- http://www.foo.be/
> --                          http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> --         "Knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance
> --                                that we can solve them" Isaac Asimov
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Guckst Du da:

http://de.wikibooks.org

:-)

Magnus

closedshop wrote:

> Hi
>
> there is a big problem, the government cannot finance the schoolbooks
> anymore and there is in germany as well a tendency to have central
> tests for certificates, this means a central contrywide curriculum of
> excercises to do and test.
>
> We thought about business firms spending money for the books but this
> would be lobby, to have a biology book by a genetic firm advertising
> the gen tomatoes ?
>
> School is not for work only, but for building human beeings.
>
> Then We thought about wiki schoolbooks,
>
> So we need a technical platform which is differentiated for the
> individuel types to learn:  math, language, biology, social  sport etc.
>
> Then we have the central curriculum in which class or age which topic
> has to be done,
>
> Each hour for a learning unit / lesson  could be described by wiki texts.
>
>
> So e.g. class 8.th  first term = in biology 15 Lessons about topic xy.
>
> So we get a plan in wiki which is a category page and then 15 subpages.
>
>
> Many students, teachers and pupils could help to built the wiki-
>
> And then: we need a pdf generator, so that  each teacher can choose a
> lesson unit for the next half year and print a  pdf out of it.
>
> This book he can mail, but as well print on demand (or books on
> demand) can be printed.
>
> So the school is printing the books itself from wikipeda.
>
> I want to see a wikipedia book in the schools.
>
> maybe there could be as well a certain platform for it ?
>
> Would be nice to have this discussed - especially from the german tech
> admins ?
>
> Thanks
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050803/9a37a131/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: Wikipedia e-mail -- fair use

body:
His response is spot-on as far as I can tell, but it is important to
see what he is saying. In a charitable interpretation, he is
responding correctly to Smoddy's argument that promotional materials
and logos are de facto "fair use" under U.S. copyright law. This is
not true and our blanket statement template should be modified (as
should all of them) to explicitly justify under which conditions it
can be asserted as "fair use" -- not every use would necessarily be
"fair". "Fair use" does not apply in a blanket way and should be
spoken of in such a way -- Smoddy's language was imprecise and did not
reflect a thorough understanding of the law (probably not his fault --
most of the "fair use" templates are VERY misleading!).

A proper response would be, "We think our use of this falls under the
'fair use' clause because 1. the ownership of the logo is clearly
attributed and the resolution of the file provided is low, 2. we are
using it for an educational purpose on a non-profit encyclopedia, and
it enhances this effort significantly, 3. no uncopyrighted alternative
exists. We believe that a judge would agree with us that such usage is
'fair' were it to be litigated."

Our Nationalist friend has not given us any reasons for why he would
think the above claims would *not* qualify as fair, so it is hard to
know why he thinks that.

The templates are misleading and should be changed -- they make "fair
use" look like a free ticket, and they are from the standpoint of what
the *content* itself is rather than its *use* (i.e., they say things
like "posters are considered fair use" -- completely the wrong way to
think about it). I've been working on some proposals along these lines
which I'll link to on here at some point.

FF

On 8/3/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> Well, Jimbo, if you want to stand up for fair use
> it appears that now's your chance. :)
>
> There seem to be around 6000 images that link to
> the {{logo}} template.
>
> Regards,
> Haukur
>
>
> > I (smoddy -- this is my second email address) sent an email to
> > User:Crosstar about fair use on a logo at [[Nationalist Movement]] and
> > [[Crosstar]].  I received this email back in response (my original
> > email is at the bottom).
> >
> > I am forwarding the email here as I am not subscribed to the legal mailing
> > list.
> >
> > Are there any suggestions as to the course to take?
> >
> > Sam/smoddy
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: crosstar <nationalist at nationalist.org>
> > Date: Aug 3, 2005 4:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: Wikipedia e-mail -- fair use
> > To: Smoddy <sam.korn at gmail.com>
> >
> > Dear Mr. Smoddy:
> >
> > Your assessment is incorrect and far from "clear."
> >
> > "Fair Use" is considered on a case-by-case basis and, even
> > after expensive and protracted litigation, outcomes may vary.
> > Suffice it to say, we cannot render legal-advice to you, which must
> > come from your own, independent legal-counsel.  I can tell you
> > that in approximately thirty-seven cases involving infringement
> > of our trademarks and violation of our copyrights, however, we
> > have won every one.
> >
> > The US Copyright Office advises that:
> >
> > "The safest course is always to get permission from the
> > copyright owner before using copyrighted material."
> > http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
> >
> > The courts tend to lean toward protecting intellectual-property
> > rights, as well they should, insofar such rights are protected
> > by the United States Constitution.
> >
> > Anyone who wishes his own intellectual-property rights to be
> > respected (and that should include all of us) should respect such
> > rights of others.  Penalties for violation are severe and increased if
> > repeated.  In the Hale case, the fine was $200,000.00, plus
> > $450,000.00 attorney fees, alone.  Punitive damages may also
> > be assessed, where conduct is wilfull, reckless or wanton, if, for
> > instance, the offender persists, after having been placed on notice.
> >
> > In this instance, the copyright/trademark owner has not given
> > permission for its images to be used and will vigorously defend its
> > rights in court, if need be.
> >
> > The Copyright Office further explains that:
> >
> > "When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted
> > material should be avoided...."
> > http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
> >
> > It is the choice of the copyright/trademark owner whether or not
> > to license use of its intellectual-property and, insofar as the
> > owner does not approve of your project and wishes to avoid any
> > misrepresentation of itself or any implied endorsement of your
> > project, as well as to prevent any confusion in the mind of the
> > public, permission is denied.
> >
> > There are numerous other objections, but the foregoing should
> > suffice for purposes of your question.  Thank you for your kind
> > consideration and cooperation.
> >
> > Richard Barrett
> > Attorney
> > The Nationalist Movement
> >
> >
> >
> > At 12:11 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote:
> >
> >>May I ask that you explain why we are not allowed to display this
> >>image?  Under US law, it is allowed for reference materials (and other
> >>such documents) to be shown for informational reasons about the
> >>topic.  This is clearly true in this case.
> >>
> >>I am sending you an email in the hope that you will reply.
> >>
> >>Cheers, and best wishes
> >>
> >>Sam/smoddy
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Try http://en.wikipedia.org - Wikipedia - the free encyclopaedia!
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Lars Sanders

subject: [Wikitech-l] bandwith misuse? www.info-greece.net

body:
Hi there

Just stumbled accross this site: www.info-greece.net and noticed
it leaches directly images from the Wikipedia servers, see e.g.

http://www.info-greece.net/Wikipedia

The immages also have no copyright information or attribution.

I'm sending this here because of the instruction on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks#Remote_loading

Thanks

 - Lars -


from_name: Phroziac

body:
I think it would be slightly confusing having more then one template
for fair use. It would probably be better to have a blank space in the
template where you can enter your claims for fair use.

On 8/3/05, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> His response is spot-on as far as I can tell, but it is important to
> see what he is saying. In a charitable interpretation, he is
> responding correctly to Smoddy's argument that promotional materials
> and logos are de facto "fair use" under U.S. copyright law. This is
> not true and our blanket statement template should be modified (as
> should all of them) to explicitly justify under which conditions it
> can be asserted as "fair use" -- not every use would necessarily be
> "fair". "Fair use" does not apply in a blanket way and should be
> spoken of in such a way -- Smoddy's language was imprecise and did not
> reflect a thorough understanding of the law (probably not his fault --
> most of the "fair use" templates are VERY misleading!).
>
> A proper response would be, "We think our use of this falls under the
> 'fair use' clause because 1. the ownership of the logo is clearly
> attributed and the resolution of the file provided is low, 2. we are
> using it for an educational purpose on a non-profit encyclopedia, and
> it enhances this effort significantly, 3. no uncopyrighted alternative
> exists. We believe that a judge would agree with us that such usage is
> 'fair' were it to be litigated."
>
> Our Nationalist friend has not given us any reasons for why he would
> think the above claims would *not* qualify as fair, so it is hard to
> know why he thinks that.
>
> The templates are misleading and should be changed -- they make "fair
> use" look like a free ticket, and they are from the standpoint of what
> the *content* itself is rather than its *use* (i.e., they say things
> like "posters are considered fair use" -- completely the wrong way to
> think about it). I've been working on some proposals along these lines
> which I'll link to on here at some point.
>
> FF
>
>
> On 8/3/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> > Well, Jimbo, if you want to stand up for fair use
> > it appears that now's your chance. :)
> >
> > There seem to be around 6000 images that link to
> > the {{logo}} template.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Haukur
> >
> >
> > > I (smoddy -- this is my second email address) sent an email to
> > > User:Crosstar about fair use on a logo at [[Nationalist Movement]] and
> > > [[Crosstar]].  I received this email back in response (my original
> > > email is at the bottom).
> > >
> > > I am forwarding the email here as I am not subscribed to the legal mailing
> > > list.
> > >
> > > Are there any suggestions as to the course to take?
> > >
> > > Sam/smoddy
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > From: crosstar <nationalist at nationalist.org>
> > > Date: Aug 3, 2005 4:06 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Wikipedia e-mail -- fair use
> > > To: Smoddy <sam.korn at gmail.com>
> > >
> > > Dear Mr. Smoddy:
> > >
> > > Your assessment is incorrect and far from "clear."
> > >
> > > "Fair Use" is considered on a case-by-case basis and, even
> > > after expensive and protracted litigation, outcomes may vary.
> > > Suffice it to say, we cannot render legal-advice to you, which must
> > > come from your own, independent legal-counsel.  I can tell you
> > > that in approximately thirty-seven cases involving infringement
> > > of our trademarks and violation of our copyrights, however, we
> > > have won every one.
> > >
> > > The US Copyright Office advises that:
> > >
> > > "The safest course is always to get permission from the
> > > copyright owner before using copyrighted material."
> > > http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
> > >
> > > The courts tend to lean toward protecting intellectual-property
> > > rights, as well they should, insofar such rights are protected
> > > by the United States Constitution.
> > >
> > > Anyone who wishes his own intellectual-property rights to be
> > > respected (and that should include all of us) should respect such
> > > rights of others.  Penalties for violation are severe and increased if
> > > repeated.  In the Hale case, the fine was $200,000.00, plus
> > > $450,000.00 attorney fees, alone.  Punitive damages may also
> > > be assessed, where conduct is wilfull, reckless or wanton, if, for
> > > instance, the offender persists, after having been placed on notice.
> > >
> > > In this instance, the copyright/trademark owner has not given
> > > permission for its images to be used and will vigorously defend its
> > > rights in court, if need be.
> > >
> > > The Copyright Office further explains that:
> > >
> > > "When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted
> > > material should be avoided...."
> > > http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
> > >
> > > It is the choice of the copyright/trademark owner whether or not
> > > to license use of its intellectual-property and, insofar as the
> > > owner does not approve of your project and wishes to avoid any
> > > misrepresentation of itself or any implied endorsement of your
> > > project, as well as to prevent any confusion in the mind of the
> > > public, permission is denied.
> > >
> > > There are numerous other objections, but the foregoing should
> > > suffice for purposes of your question.  Thank you for your kind
> > > consideration and cooperation.
> > >
> > > Richard Barrett
> > > Attorney
> > > The Nationalist Movement
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 12:11 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote:
> > >
> > >>May I ask that you explain why we are not allowed to display this
> > >>image?  Under US law, it is allowed for reference materials (and other
> > >>such documents) to be shown for informational reasons about the
> > >>topic.  This is clearly true in this case.
> > >>
> > >>I am sending you an email in the hope that you will reply.
> > >>
> > >>Cheers, and best wishes
> > >>
> > >>Sam/smoddy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Try http://en.wikipedia.org - Wikipedia - the free encyclopaedia!
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: David Harvey

subject: [Wikitech-l] new LaTeX => MathML converter for mediawiki

body:
Dear MediaWiki developers,

I have written a LaTeX to MathML converter designed specifically for
Wikipedia.

More information is available at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Blahtex.

There is also a download page at
http://abel.math.harvard.edu/~dmharvey/blahtex/index.php where you will
find:
* source code (C++, GNU GPL license)
* interactive online demo
* every equation in (English) Wikipedia filtered through texvc and
blahtex, side by side for visual comparison

I am hoping that this will spur some action towards getting MediaWiki
to actually spit out real MathML. I am aware that there are some very
complicated issues involved and that this is not an easy problem to
solve. Nevertheless, I hope that having a working converter (at least
at some kind of decent alpha stage) will inspire some effort in this
direction.

I have cross-posted a similar message at Village Pump:technical and on
the mathematics wikiproject talk page.

If you have ideas about how to make this happen, I want to hear about
it! Thanks in advance for your help.

David Harvey
(User:Dmharvey on en.wikipedia.org and at meta.wikimedia.org)


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

body:
Well, Jimbo, if you want to stand up for fair use
it appears that now's your chance. :)

There seem to be around 6000 images that link to
the {{logo}} template.

Regards,
Haukur

> I (smoddy -- this is my second email address) sent an email to
> User:Crosstar about fair use on a logo at [[Nationalist Movement]] and
> [[Crosstar]].  I received this email back in response (my original
> email is at the bottom).
>
> I am forwarding the email here as I am not subscribed to the legal mailing
> list.
>
> Are there any suggestions as to the course to take?
>
> Sam/smoddy
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: crosstar <nationalist at nationalist.org>
> Date: Aug 3, 2005 4:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia e-mail -- fair use
> To: Smoddy <sam.korn at gmail.com>
>
> Dear Mr. Smoddy:
>
> Your assessment is incorrect and far from "clear."
>
> "Fair Use" is considered on a case-by-case basis and, even
> after expensive and protracted litigation, outcomes may vary.
> Suffice it to say, we cannot render legal-advice to you, which must
> come from your own, independent legal-counsel.  I can tell you
> that in approximately thirty-seven cases involving infringement
> of our trademarks and violation of our copyrights, however, we
> have won every one.
>
> The US Copyright Office advises that:
>
> "The safest course is always to get permission from the
> copyright owner before using copyrighted material."
> http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
>
> The courts tend to lean toward protecting intellectual-property
> rights, as well they should, insofar such rights are protected
> by the United States Constitution.
>
> Anyone who wishes his own intellectual-property rights to be
> respected (and that should include all of us) should respect such
> rights of others.  Penalties for violation are severe and increased if
> repeated.  In the Hale case, the fine was $200,000.00, plus
> $450,000.00 attorney fees, alone.  Punitive damages may also
> be assessed, where conduct is wilfull, reckless or wanton, if, for
> instance, the offender persists, after having been placed on notice.
>
> In this instance, the copyright/trademark owner has not given
> permission for its images to be used and will vigorously defend its
> rights in court, if need be.
>
> The Copyright Office further explains that:
>
> "When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted
> material should be avoided...."
> http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
>
> It is the choice of the copyright/trademark owner whether or not
> to license use of its intellectual-property and, insofar as the
> owner does not approve of your project and wishes to avoid any
> misrepresentation of itself or any implied endorsement of your
> project, as well as to prevent any confusion in the mind of the
> public, permission is denied.
>
> There are numerous other objections, but the foregoing should
> suffice for purposes of your question.  Thank you for your kind
> consideration and cooperation.
>
> Richard Barrett
> Attorney
> The Nationalist Movement
>
>
>
> At 12:11 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote:
>
>>May I ask that you explain why we are not allowed to display this
>>image?  Under US law, it is allowed for reference materials (and other
>>such documents) to be shown for informational reasons about the
>>topic.  This is clearly true in this case.
>>
>>I am sending you an email in the hope that you will reply.
>>
>>Cheers, and best wishes
>>
>>Sam/smoddy
>
>
>
> --
> Try http://en.wikipedia.org - Wikipedia - the free encyclopaedia!
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Sam Korn

body:
I (smoddy -- this is my second email address) sent an email to
User:Crosstar about fair use on a logo at [[Nationalist Movement]] and
[[Crosstar]].  I received this email back in response (my original
email is at the bottom).

I am forwarding the email here as I am not subscribed to the legal mailing list.

Are there any suggestions as to the course to take?

Sam/smoddy

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: crosstar <nationalist at nationalist.org>
Date: Aug 3, 2005 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: Wikipedia e-mail -- fair use
To: Smoddy <sam.korn at gmail.com>

Dear Mr. Smoddy:

Your assessment is incorrect and far from "clear."

"Fair Use" is considered on a case-by-case basis and, even
after expensive and protracted litigation, outcomes may vary.
Suffice it to say, we cannot render legal-advice to you, which must
come from your own, independent legal-counsel.  I can tell you
that in approximately thirty-seven cases involving infringement
of our trademarks and violation of our copyrights, however, we
have won every one.

The US Copyright Office advises that:

"The safest course is always to get permission from the
copyright owner before using copyrighted material."
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

The courts tend to lean toward protecting intellectual-property
rights, as well they should, insofar such rights are protected
by the United States Constitution.

Anyone who wishes his own intellectual-property rights to be
respected (and that should include all of us) should respect such
rights of others.  Penalties for violation are severe and increased if
repeated.  In the Hale case, the fine was $200,000.00, plus
$450,000.00 attorney fees, alone.  Punitive damages may also
be assessed, where conduct is wilfull, reckless or wanton, if, for
instance, the offender persists, after having been placed on notice.

In this instance, the copyright/trademark owner has not given
permission for its images to be used and will vigorously defend its
rights in court, if need be.

The Copyright Office further explains that:

"When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted
material should be avoided...."
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

It is the choice of the copyright/trademark owner whether or not
to license use of its intellectual-property and, insofar as the
owner does not approve of your project and wishes to avoid any
misrepresentation of itself or any implied endorsement of your
project, as well as to prevent any confusion in the mind of the
public, permission is denied.

There are numerous other objections, but the foregoing should
suffice for purposes of your question.  Thank you for your kind
consideration and cooperation.

Richard Barrett
Attorney
The Nationalist Movement

At 12:11 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote:

>May I ask that you explain why we are not allowed to display this
>image?  Under US law, it is allowed for reference materials (and other
>such documents) to be shown for informational reasons about the
>topic.  This is clearly true in this case.
>
>I am sending you an email in the hope that you will reply.
>
>Cheers, and best wishes
>
>Sam/smoddy

--
Try http://en.wikipedia.org - Wikipedia - the free encyclopaedia!


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Is this right?

body:
Skyring wrote:
> I just took a look at [[George VI of the United Kingdom]], which has
> been protected by jtdirl, citing persistent vandalism. jtdirl is a
> participant on the lame edit war running on this and similar pages,
> and has naturally protected it in his preferred version.

An anonymous ip number vandalized the page repeatedly and the vandalism
has been reverted repeatedly by a few different people.  Eventually,
jtdirl protected the page.

This is so routine and boring that I can only interpret this email as
yet another instance of you harassing jtdirl -- you've already been in
trouble for this in the past -- doing it on the mailng list isn't likely
to be given any sympathy.

--Jimbo


from_name: Ryan Delaney

subject: [WikiEN-l] I better shut up (was vfd RFC)

body:
I don't want this mailing list to degenerate into a flame war here, but
I really think you have no cause to be acting indignant. A simple "I'm
sorry about the trouble I caused, it won't happen again" would have made
me, and a lot of other people, forget about this entirely. But what
you're saying here makes me think that once you are unblocked, it very
well might happen again. That prospect scares me, and makes me think you
ought to be blocked a lot longer. Your crack about "liberal stereotypes"
is just a bitter, bigoted jab that is icing on the cake.

We're trying to make an encyclopedia here. You disrupted it --
_enormously_ -- just to make a point.

- Ryan

Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later. I got blocked by Kim Bruning - until 21:08 today, a very specific time.
>
>No good deed goes unpunished: I had just finished apologizing for the VFD deletion, and was just beginning to make some progress with Uninvited Company when I got the shock of my young (Wikipedian) life.
>
>Well, at least now I can say I know how it feels to be blocked (and without warning, to boot).
>
>I guess this is a bigger deal than I thought. Not that I really understand it all, I'm too simple and na?ve. I guess I fit the liberal stereotype of Christians being "ignorant and easily-led", because I'm going to do just what I was told to do, i.e., shut up until the block expires.
>
>Your obed't servant,
>
>Ed Poor
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


body:
Well, there are already many fair use templates for different
purposes, and I think that is a good idea for certain blanket
categories of use. I think a blank space is a bad idea -- most users
do not know what kind of claims they should be making, do not care,
and do not want to take the time to learn. I do not blame them for
this in the slightest!

My proposal is to edit the templates so that they clearly state their
proper use. For example, the following would be a fair use template
for use on portraits of historical individuals:

{{
    This is a copyrighted photographic portrait of a notable
individual. It is believed that this qualifies under the fair use
provision of United States copyright law (see copyrights), because the
Wikipedia editor who has placed this copyright tag believes it to
satisify the following criteria:
    1. It is used for purely educational purposes and significantly
enhances value of the encyclopedia article it is being used to
illustrate and is not meant to defraud or otherwise harm the existing
copyright holder.
    2. Alternative photographs under a free license have not been
located and seem unlikely to currently exist.
    3. Its total pixel dimensions is far below any suitable print
resolution. As such it is only provides a limited amount of
reproducibility and in limited applications.
    4. Its ultimate source and likely copyright holder is listed above
if known, for those seeking to license the photograph for their own
use. If it is not known, its immediate source is listed above, who may
be possibly contacted for copyright information as well.
    5. It is being used on the English edition of Wikipedia, which is
sponsored by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, for the purpose of
creating an encyclopedia and spreading general knowledge. If you are
re-using Wikipedia content for another website (see our copyright
policy), these fair use criteria may not apply.

Please note that the posting of copyrighted material that does not
have the express permission of the copyright holder may be in
violation of applicable law and of our policy. Those with a history of
violations may be temporarily suspended from editing pages. }}

Now if I were a user and I placed that, I would hopefully read it over
a bit to see if it qualified, but even if I didn't, any other user who
looked at the tag could quickly and easily see if the image *didn't*
meet one of the requirements. "Holy smokes, this user didn't include
any information about the likely copyright holder!" and then flag it
appropriately or notify the original user.

That is, *the template itself* would, in the process of setting out
the "fair use" claims (which would alert any copyright holder
specifically what our argument about fair use is), also define what
sorts of things could be labeled with it. Does your image/use not fit
the template? Then it probably isn't fair use! Simple as that.

I think they should all be changed along these lines. I think it would
save a lot of time, be a lot "safer", and also make a lot more users
unconsciously aware of the "fair use" requirements in an actionable
way. It also makes the licensing information pretty clear, i.e. that
future use of it could be pretty limited.

FF

On 8/3/05, Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it would be slightly confusing having more then one template
> for fair use. It would probably be better to have a blank space in the
> template where you can enter your claims for fair use.
>
> On 8/3/05, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> > His response is spot-on as far as I can tell, but it is important to
> > see what he is saying. In a charitable interpretation, he is
> > responding correctly to Smoddy's argument that promotional materials
> > and logos are de facto "fair use" under U.S. copyright law. This is
> > not true and our blanket statement template should be modified (as
> > should all of them) to explicitly justify under which conditions it
> > can be asserted as "fair use" -- not every use would necessarily be
> > "fair". "Fair use" does not apply in a blanket way and should be
> > spoken of in such a way -- Smoddy's language was imprecise and did not
> > reflect a thorough understanding of the law (probably not his fault --
> > most of the "fair use" templates are VERY misleading!).
> >
> > A proper response would be, "We think our use of this falls under the
> > 'fair use' clause because 1. the ownership of the logo is clearly
> > attributed and the resolution of the file provided is low, 2. we are
> > using it for an educational purpose on a non-profit encyclopedia, and
> > it enhances this effort significantly, 3. no uncopyrighted alternative
> > exists. We believe that a judge would agree with us that such usage is
> > 'fair' were it to be litigated."
> >
> > Our Nationalist friend has not given us any reasons for why he would
> > think the above claims would *not* qualify as fair, so it is hard to
> > know why he thinks that.
> >
> > The templates are misleading and should be changed -- they make "fair
> > use" look like a free ticket, and they are from the standpoint of what
> > the *content* itself is rather than its *use* (i.e., they say things
> > like "posters are considered fair use" -- completely the wrong way to
> > think about it). I've been working on some proposals along these lines
> > which I'll link to on here at some point.
> >
> > FF
> >
> >
> > On 8/3/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> > > Well, Jimbo, if you want to stand up for fair use
> > > it appears that now's your chance. :)
> > >
> > > There seem to be around 6000 images that link to
> > > the {{logo}} template.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Haukur
> > >
> > >
> > > > I (smoddy -- this is my second email address) sent an email to
> > > > User:Crosstar about fair use on a logo at [[Nationalist Movement]] and
> > > > [[Crosstar]].  I received this email back in response (my original
> > > > email is at the bottom).
> > > >
> > > > I am forwarding the email here as I am not subscribed to the legal mailing
> > > > list.
> > > >
> > > > Are there any suggestions as to the course to take?
> > > >
> > > > Sam/smoddy
> > > >
> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > From: crosstar <nationalist at nationalist.org>
> > > > Date: Aug 3, 2005 4:06 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Wikipedia e-mail -- fair use
> > > > To: Smoddy <sam.korn at gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > Dear Mr. Smoddy:
> > > >
> > > > Your assessment is incorrect and far from "clear."
> > > >
> > > > "Fair Use" is considered on a case-by-case basis and, even
> > > > after expensive and protracted litigation, outcomes may vary.
> > > > Suffice it to say, we cannot render legal-advice to you, which must
> > > > come from your own, independent legal-counsel.  I can tell you
> > > > that in approximately thirty-seven cases involving infringement
> > > > of our trademarks and violation of our copyrights, however, we
> > > > have won every one.
> > > >
> > > > The US Copyright Office advises that:
> > > >
> > > > "The safest course is always to get permission from the
> > > > copyright owner before using copyrighted material."
> > > > http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
> > > >
> > > > The courts tend to lean toward protecting intellectual-property
> > > > rights, as well they should, insofar such rights are protected
> > > > by the United States Constitution.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone who wishes his own intellectual-property rights to be
> > > > respected (and that should include all of us) should respect such
> > > > rights of others.  Penalties for violation are severe and increased if
> > > > repeated.  In the Hale case, the fine was $200,000.00, plus
> > > > $450,000.00 attorney fees, alone.  Punitive damages may also
> > > > be assessed, where conduct is wilfull, reckless or wanton, if, for
> > > > instance, the offender persists, after having been placed on notice.
> > > >
> > > > In this instance, the copyright/trademark owner has not given
> > > > permission for its images to be used and will vigorously defend its
> > > > rights in court, if need be.
> > > >
> > > > The Copyright Office further explains that:
> > > >
> > > > "When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted
> > > > material should be avoided...."
> > > > http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
> > > >
> > > > It is the choice of the copyright/trademark owner whether or not
> > > > to license use of its intellectual-property and, insofar as the
> > > > owner does not approve of your project and wishes to avoid any
> > > > misrepresentation of itself or any implied endorsement of your
> > > > project, as well as to prevent any confusion in the mind of the
> > > > public, permission is denied.
> > > >
> > > > There are numerous other objections, but the foregoing should
> > > > suffice for purposes of your question.  Thank you for your kind
> > > > consideration and cooperation.
> > > >
> > > > Richard Barrett
> > > > Attorney
> > > > The Nationalist Movement
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 12:11 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>May I ask that you explain why we are not allowed to display this
> > > >>image?  Under US law, it is allowed for reference materials (and other
> > > >>such documents) to be shown for informational reasons about the
> > > >>topic.  This is clearly true in this case.
> > > >>
> > > >>I am sending you an email in the hope that you will reply.
> > > >>
> > > >>Cheers, and best wishes
> > > >>
> > > >>Sam/smoddy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Try http://en.wikipedia.org - Wikipedia - the free encyclopaedia!
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> --
> signature
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 02/08/05, Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why not? We put a bit of effort into debunking the Apollo hoax
> people, and they are equally round the bend wacko.

A while ago, I did some minor edits to various pages - [[Capricorn
One]] is the one that I recall - to get rid of passing Apollo-hoax
references. There are, I'm fairly sure, none on the "serious"
spaceflight pages other than a passing cite of the page. I've always
wondered if this could be construed as messing around with NPOV... it
likely isn't, but if I wanted to should about it enough it probably
would be taken as such.

The history of the Apollo hoax article, when I have enough time,
should be an interesting thing to look at...

> There's a lot of material
> on wikipedia that is aimed at countering laughable notions.

In a way, I see this as quite useful. There's a couple of articles
wheich consist of pretty much nothing *but* debunking false notions -
[[Brass Monkey]], IIRC, or half of [[The Whole Nine Yards]]. Better to
have them than not have them; information is better than implicit
misinformation.

> It's not just a cite, either. This thing has its own article, complete
> with photographs and circles and arrows and notes on the back
> explaining what the circles and arrows mean. Perhaps rather than
> voicing opposition to a notional cite, you should look into what sort
> of rubbish is appearing on your own site.

It's a typical case of American blind justice!

(sorry...)

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Lupin wp

subject: [WikiEN-l] Navigation popups

body:
This is an advert for a new javascript tool which you may find
helpful. When you hover the mouse over wikilinks, a list of links pops
up. These link directly to pages relevant to the link, such as edit,
editTalk, contribs, count (a link to Kate's tool), image thumbnails
for image links and so on. I think it's quite nifty! There's a
description here:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tools#Navigation_popups

Installation is a matter of adding a few lines to your monobook.js (or
standard.js - this is skin-agnostic).

Let me know what you think! It's still in development so I'd welcome
suggestions for improvements.

Lupin

PS I don't know if it works in IE - it's been developed in firefox.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

body:
Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later. I got blocked by Kim Bruning - until 21:08 today, a very specific time.

No good deed goes unpunished: I had just finished apologizing for the VFD deletion, and was just beginning to make some progress with Uninvited Company when I got the shock of my young (Wikipedian) life.

Well, at least now I can say I know how it feels to be blocked (and without warning, to boot).

I guess this is a bigger deal than I thought. Not that I really understand it all, I'm too simple and na?ve. I guess I fit the liberal stereotype of Christians being "ignorant and easily-led", because I'm going to do just what I was told to do, i.e., shut up until the block expires.

Your obed't servant,

Ed Poor


body:
What good dead?
Well, atleast you got us talking about vfd!

On 8/3/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later. I got blocked by Kim Bruning - until 21:08 today, a very specific time.
>
> No good deed goes unpunished: I had just finished apologizing for the VFD deletion, and was just beginning to make some progress with Uninvited Company when I got the shock of my young (Wikipedian) life.
>
> Well, at least now I can say I know how it feels to be blocked (and without warning, to boot).
>
> I guess this is a bigger deal than I thought. Not that I really understand it all, I'm too simple and na?ve. I guess I fit the liberal stereotype of Christians being "ignorant and easily-led", because I'm going to do just what I was told to do, i.e., shut up until the block expires.
>
> Your obed't servant,
>
> Ed Poor
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
We've got a new set of servers coming in South Korea real soon, and are
talking about the possibility of additional data centers elsewhere in
Europe.

With our current software system it's relatively straightforward to move
whole wikis to separate data centers; for instance moving German and
French Wikipedias and some other languages to Europe, or Korean and
other Asian languages to Korea. This could allow us to make better use
of server resources for expansion.

What would be the legal implications of serving some content from
outside of the United States, in comparison to merely running them
through a local caching proxy?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050803/fe01460a/attachment.pgp


body:
We've got a new set of servers coming in South Korea real soon, and are
talking about the possibility of additional data centers elsewhere in
Europe.

With our current software system it's relatively straightforward to move
whole wikis to separate data centers; for instance moving German and
French Wikipedias and some other languages to Europe, or Korean and
other Asian languages to Korea. This could allow us to make better use
of server resources for expansion.

What would be the legal implications of serving some content from
outside of the United States, in comparison to merely running them
through a local caching proxy?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050803/fe01460a/attachment-0001.pgp


body:
We've got a new set of servers coming in South Korea real soon, and are
talking about the possibility of additional data centers elsewhere in
Europe.

With our current software system it's relatively straightforward to move
whole wikis to separate data centers; for instance moving German and
French Wikipedias and some other languages to Europe, or Korean and
other Asian languages to Korea. This could allow us to make better use
of server resources for expansion.

What would be the legal implications of serving some content from
outside of the United States, in comparison to merely running them
through a local caching proxy?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20050803/fe01460a/attachment.pgp>


body:
We've got a new set of servers coming in South Korea real soon, and are
talking about the possibility of additional data centers elsewhere in
Europe.

With our current software system it's relatively straightforward to move
whole wikis to separate data centers; for instance moving German and
French Wikipedias and some other languages to Europe, or Korean and
other Asian languages to Korea. This could allow us to make better use
of server resources for expansion.

What would be the legal implications of serving some content from
outside of the United States, in comparison to merely running them
through a local caching proxy?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20050803/fe01460a/attachment-0001.pgp>


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] blank pages

body:
BTW, adding from an empty page is the common way to write an article
on wikipedia. If you want to use a text from a text editor, you should
use copy and paste.

On 8/2/05, Johann B. Gabagat <LordIzaak at postmark.net> wrote:
> How do you make a blank page? You won't let me upload any .doc or .txt
> so I think it would be easier to just creating a blank page and adding
> from there.
>
> My account is called Izaak.
>
>
> -Izaak, Lord of the Lotus Clan.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
I'm not an admin, but I can tell you that using AOL will always cause
some issues with some of the less intelligent people who give AOL a
bad name. This is also true for a lot of other ISPs. You could
consider switching to another provider, especially if broadband is
available in your area.

Sorry that idiots have to cause this to happen. :(

On 8/3/05, Ogdenjaeww at aol.com <Ogdenjaeww at aol.com> wrote:
>
> "Re:  Your user name or IP address has been _blocked_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy)  by _CryptoDerk_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CryptoDerk) .
> The reason given is this:
> vandal
> You can _email  CryptoDerk_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/CryptoDerk)  or one of the other _administrators_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_administrators)   to discuss the block. You may also edit
> _your user talk page_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Mytalk)  if  you
> wish. If you believe that our _blocking  policy_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy)  was violated, you may discuss the block publicly on
> the _WikiEN-l mailing  list_
> (http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l) . Note that you may not use the "email this user" feature unless you
> have a Wikipedia account and a valid email address registered in your _user
> preferences_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences) .
>
> Your IP address is 207.200.116.195. Please include  this address, along with
> your username, in any queries you make."
> -----
> This type of block happens repeatedly, not because of anything I  do but
> because AOL assigns me an IP number that is frequently used by  vandal(s).  Please
> see my User Page -   WBardwin/AOL Block  Collection.  The admin responses I
> get on these occasions are  generally positive and helpful, and many times they
> have been able to release  the block so I can get some work done.  Today,
> however, I am not able to  access any administrators pages and have resorted to
> e-mail.  I would like  to see this problem resolved as these undeserved blocks
> are very annoying  and time consuming.  However, my discussions with AOL do
> not lead me to  believe that they would be willing to block or even chastise the
>  guilty vandals.  Would the community of administrators please  discuss and
> address this ongoing problem?  I'm sure I'm not the only "good"  user being
> impacted by this policy.  Thank you.
> WBardwin.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


subject: [WikiEN-l] block open proxies only for non-logged-in users please

body:
> > If a registered user is blocked, it blocks their
> > name and IP.
>
> Why block the IP? What if it's from a library or
> school? This sounds like a too harsh response. Could
> you not make new account user creation a a bit more of
> an effort/time (at least from the open proxies) to
> discourage abuse?

It's part of the Mediawiki software, which Wikipedia runs. It causes
some issues sometimes, for example with people who are blocked for
using an inappropriate user name. The intent is to keep the user from
logging out to evade the block.


from_name: Heiko Evermann

subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] languages that do not have "correct spelling"	standards

body:
Hi Sabine, hi everyone,
> But let's talk about minor languages. We have some difficulties on the
> nds wiktionary - people think that the only way to write correct is
> following the Sass ortography. Some days ago I had a longer telephone
> conversation with one of the directors of the Institut f?r
> niederdeutsche Sprache (institute for nds) - he explained that there are
> at least six different acknowledged ways of writing nds and if we go to
> details 200 to 400 ways of writing (including also dictionaries from
> around 1920 etc.) can be defined - so accepting only one way of writing
> is a discrimination to my opinion. They all need to be accepted - the
> important thing is that there is a distinction from one to the other.
> How we could achieve this - in the actual wiktionary signing all non
> classified words just with nds. Words that can be classified receive
> nds-ABC, nds-DEF, nds-SASS, nds-xyz. So not only the single term is to
> be classified, but also the definition (if possible) - if it is not
> classified there's simply no reference to a certain class.
This is not a correct representation of the discussion that we had.
1) we said want all Low Saxon entries to be classified as -nds-
2) we said that there should be a possibility to list dialect and spelling
variations within one entry. But for that we need a structure that does not
break your automatic im-/export to other wiktionarys. Using nds-sass as a
main entry will not do it. We want to have a list of frequent other
spellings below the nds heading. As far as I remember, this problem has been
mentioned in our talk page, but so far there has not been a proposal from
your side.
I would like to see something like
Article: xy
-nds-
* Meaning
* Meaning
Variations
* xya( Sass, Harte)
* xyb (Lindow)
* xyc (etc..)

3) we do in fact not want to treat all spelling variations on one level.
Minor variations should be clearly marked as such. Low Saxon is in a bad
state at the moment and people who want to learn Low Saxon need some kind of
guidance about which spelling is common and which is not. Wiktionary is not
a means to elevate little used spellings into something official.

4) the main problem is a discussion that we had about a list that you wanted
to import. This list is available for us for free, but it contains a lot of
doubtful entries. We had offered to go through this list and solve the major
problems. (This process is underway. Besides: it could go on faster, if you
just sent us the data again in a textformat that does not break special
characters, like zipped unicode.) We (the majority on nds.wiktionary.org)
are only willing to accept words that conform to some standard. But the list
contains lots of entries that (at least to our understanding) do not conform
to any standard. They are a very private opinion of the author. (And then
this list was mirrored to about 4 other places in the web.) This (to our
understanding) does not turn these spellings errors into an accepted
spelling. Another thing is that the original author of this list is not
available (as you said). This means that we have no chance to discuss the
problematic issues with the author. But you now just want to treat this list
as a fact. As I said before to Gerard: the wiktionary is not a dump for all
the bad spelling that you can find on the web. We are indeed open to
different spellings, but for certain forms that we think to be wrong
according to all standards, we just want proof that this is indeed a valid
and used spelling. A reference in a Low Saxon dictionary (of whatever
spelling) would be helpful. Until then, these words will not be imported
into nds.wiktionary.org, or at least they will not be imported until there
is a general consensus in nds.wiktionary.org about how to deal with the
problem.

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann

--
5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail
+++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++


subject: [WikiEN-l] Navigation popups

body:
It doesn't seem to be working for me with Mozilla 1.7.8, or Firefox
1.0.2 (I know its old -- I don't use it anymore...im gonna try to
upgrade and use a source copy though, apparently its stable that
way..). I'm on debian linux.

On 8/3/05, Lupin wp <lupin.wp at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is an advert for a new javascript tool which you may find
> helpful. When you hover the mouse over wikilinks, a list of links pops
> up. These link directly to pages relevant to the link, such as edit,
> editTalk, contribs, count (a link to Kate's tool), image thumbnails
> for image links and so on. I think it's quite nifty! There's a
> description here:
>
>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tools#Navigation_popups
>
> Installation is a matter of adding a few lines to your monobook.js (or
> standard.js - this is skin-agnostic).
>
> Let me know what you think! It's still in development so I'd welcome
> suggestions for improvements.
>
> Lupin
>
> PS I don't know if it works in IE - it's been developed in firefox.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature