from_name: holic fool

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop position request

body:
I, Notheruser, cordially request admin status.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] Code cleanup

body:
Now that the test suite is mostly working (I still need to fill in
some things like testing the Math functions), I'm emboldened to do
some code cleanup.

One of the first things I'd like to do is simplify the installation
and update procedures, for the same reason as having the test suite:
it will make it faster to make and test changes, and easier to
maintain the multiple installations.

Some questions first:

- Is there any reason to retain the Phase II conversion scripts?
  Do there exist any Phase II installations anymore that might need
  to be converted, or can I safely arcive those off somewhere?

- I'd like to have a nice separation between the source tree and
  the installation set, with scripts for installs and updates and
  maintenance. Should the maintenance scripts be "installed"
  somewhere as well, or should they be run from the source tree?
  I'm inclined toward the latter, so that dangerous functions don't
  get accidentally exposed as web pages, but perhaps they should be?

- Brion, are there any temporary measures you have taken on the
  existing wikis in which some configuration option is not isolated
  in LocalSettings.php?  I'd like to arrange it so that we'll be
  able to grab the latest source from CVS, and just run an update
  script on any of the wikis which will look in the target
  directory's LocalSettings for everything it needs and update all
  the rest of the code properly.  If there are other changes that
  might complicate that, let me know and I'll put them into
  LocalSettings.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Server-side backlink redirects

body:
> >(*) Move page only
> >( ) Make the page a redirect, and update all links so that they point to
> >    the new article
> >( ) Move page and update links
>
>Q1: What's the difference between the last two options?

I thought option 2 might be controversial, but I guess if no-one understands
it that would explain why no-one has commented on it yet. Option 2 simply
changes the first page to a redirect as if someone had edited it normally.
It does not move the edit history to the new location. This would
effectively allow someone to move a page to an occupied location, without
deleting it first to make way. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.

>Q2: I don't really trust this idea yet and would hesitate to use it --
>     although I have no objection to other editors' having it available.
>     But what I'd really like is an option that changes only redirects,
>     to automatically avoid double redirects.  Can we add that?
>     Perhaps it should even be the default?

Okay, that can be done. Let me get this straight, is this what you want:

* Double redirect exists from [[redir1]] to [[redir2]] to [[content]]
* User navigates to [[redir2]] and clicks "move/redirect page" (probably a
better name for Special:Movepage with new functionality)
* User selects the option "No move, update redirects only"
* Software chages "#REDIRECT [[redir2]]" in [[redir1]] to "#REDIRECT
[[content]]"

Is that about right? Here's another scenario:

* [[redir1]] redirects to [[old content]]. User wants to change the title of
[[old content]] to [[new content]].
* User navigates to [[old content]], clicks "move/redirect page", and
selects "Move, update redirects only".
* Software moves the page, and changes [[redir1] to "#REDIRECT [[new
content]]"

For a UI, something like:

(*) Move
( ) Change to redirect

[*] Update redirects to here
[ ] Update links from article namespace
[ ] Update links from other namespaces

Where ( ) indicates a radio button or option group or whatever you want to
call it, and [ ] indicates a checkbox.

-- Tim Starling

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 208.63.114.185

body:
>The other other thing we need, IMNSHO, is a pair of pages like
>Special:Recentchanges and Special:Newpages, but that only show the ones
>done by anon IP people. I'd find that mighty handy for keeping the patent
>nonsense under control.

I suggested something similar to that on Sourceforge quite some time ago,
but I never heard anything more about it.

-- Tim Starling

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones.?Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user (was: Wikipedia privacy)

body:
Well, here's an idea. Give sysops emergency power to ban a logged-in user (by name), while simultaneously blindly banning their IP address -- temporarily. And they'd be honor bound to report the ban to the list, just as when a sysop protects a page to stop an edit war.

For example, user:Skeezix messes up a lot of pages, so sysop BigCheese spends countless hours cleaning up after him and finally says it's not worth it. After some discussion on the mailing list -- or in a really urgent case, unilaterally -- the sysop presses the magic "Ban this logged-in user" button.

Whereupon two things happen:

1. The user's account is blocked.
2. The user's IP address is blocked.

And one thing doesn't happen:

3. No user, not even a sysop, can see the blocked IP.

So if Skeezix tries to log in as user:Spreitel -- he can't because his IP is blocked.

Advantages:

* Stops the vandal cold.
* Avoids revealing IP addresses.

Disadvantages:

* Like all banning mechanisms, it could be abused.
* If the IP is shared by "innocent" parties, they also get blocked.

Ed Poor


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On Thu, 2003-04-03 at 15:59, Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Advantages:
>
> * Stops the vandal cold.
> * Avoids revealing IP addresses.
>
> Disadvantages:
>
> * Like all banning mechanisms, it could be abused.
> * If the IP is shared by "innocent" parties, they also get blocked.

I've long thought this was a reasonable idea.

There would need to be a mechanism that allows someone with a blocked IP
to raise attention to that fact.


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia privacy

body:
Actually, for anonymity, I think we shouldn't store any information potentially linking names and IP addresses to messages. According to the "patriot" act, the government can search anything (like servers) with automatic permission from a judge to find evidence for terrorist suspects. If someone were to write on a talk page "I love Sadam Hussein and Osama bin Laden", then the government would try to trace it to someone, and if they have DSL, they might find someone and "detain" them.  Don't say it's a hypothetical situation, it's happened before. The CIA is starting a program called "Total Information Awareness".  They won't release much about it, but it sounds really bad for websites.

 Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
I'm not saying we should shred all records after 24 hours and encrypt
our hard drives. ;) But we should pay attention to how our behavior fits
into a larger context.

---------------------------------
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subject: [WikiEN-l] 172

body:
This exchange is from my talk page:

> I noticed a page in which you were trying to recruit new
> sysops. Could I become one?
>
> 172

! It's a possibility, provided you show others that you are
! competent and sincere about working toward the Wikipedia's
! goal of creating an accurate and neutral encyclopedia. It
! might be a bit of an uphill climb for you, though. --Ed

Ed Poor


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia scheduled downtime tonight

body:
The English-language Wikipedia will be in read-only mode for maintenance
tonight/in the morning starting around 9pm PST (midnight EST; 5am GMT; 6am
most of Europe; the rest of you are on your own).

I'll be making some slight alterations to the database structure and
installing an updated version of the software to better support
client-side web caching for more browsers (so your browser will reload
pages only when they've actually changed instead of every time you visit
them). This will also enable a future update to do server-side caching
which should reduce server load significantly.

IE users, this should fix the cache bug where red links remain even after
a page has been created; the page should automatically reload with the
correct link status.

(This update has been running for about a week on meta.wikipedia.org and
test.wikipedia.org with no complaints so far.)

This will require taking the wiki "briefly" into read-only mode while
alterations are made. I don't know exactly how long it will take, but
don't be surprised if it takes about two hours. These things always take
longer than hoped. :)

The other languages will also be done around this time, but should go much
faster; there will be brief read-only outages, one at a time.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia scheduled downtime tonight


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikipedia scheduled downtime tonight


from_name: Michel Mouly

subject: [Wikitech-l] php notices

body:
Hi!

It took me some time to understand: you MUST set the php configuration to
not include notices, otherwise the HTTP headers are not sent. Maybe this is
specific to my case, but it would seem that logging a notice (or an
error/warning) suffices for headers_sent to become true (and, I imagine,
further headers not to be sent)! Quite strange, a php bug???

If my interpretation is correct, I would suggest to indicate it somewhere
(readme), since php installation by default is with error_reporting=E_ALL.

Another consequence (I think) is that debugging with error_log,
trigger_error, and alike prevents the sending of headers if done before the
call to wgOut->output()...

Now, the good news : this solved my submit issue. In other words, if you
leave php notices, one of the visible symptoms is that submitting an edited
page yields a blank page (and this after some time).

So, many thanks for the advice!

Michel Mouly

At 10:32 02/04/2003 -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
>Change the error reporting level in your php configuration to not include
>'notices'. These are just telling us that the web server didn't report
>certain values from the http headers, so the magic array doesn't contain
>anything at those indices. We already know that because it will have
>returned NULL instead of a useful string. So, not very helpful. :)
>
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] April 5

body:
I spent about 15 minutes working on [[April 5]] only to have the database lockout hit me just as I saw saving.  I have no interest in doing all that work again.  Mav, have at it.

Zoe

---------------------------------
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subject: [WikiEN-l] April 5

body:
On Thu, 2003-04-03 at 21:09, Zoe wrote:
> I spent about 15 minutes working on [[April 5]] only to have the
> database lockout hit me just as I saw saving.  I have no interest in
> doing all that work again.  Mav, have at it.

Normally, one hits "back", and copies the text from the edit box, and
pastes it into a nice text file.

In case this is problematic on Internet Explorer and other notoriously
wikipedia-unfriendly browsers, I've just tweaked it so that trying to
save a page during lockout in the future will divert to a preview,
giving you a chance to copy the text without hitting 'back'.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: John R. Owens

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop position request

body:
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, holic fool wrote:

> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 13:35:13 -0800 (PST)
> From: holic fool <wiki900wiki at yahoo.com>
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop position request
>
> I, Notheruser, cordially request admin status.

	I'll do you one better. I, JohnOwens (in case you couldn't guess),
UNcordially request admin status. ;)

	Oh yeah, UNcordially, I guess I'm supposed to stick my tongue out
at you or something now. :p Consider it done.

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
Bester:		We had our orders.
Jeff Sinclair:	Mister, I don't care if you had a personal message from God
	complete with stone tablets.  You lied to me.


subject: [Wikitech-l] <math> seems to be broken

body:
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 01:28, Neil Harris wrote:
> Currently, math markup seems to be broken in several articles I've
> looked at. I've not yet seen one with math markup working.
> Is math markup broken?

It seems that someone has changed the default value of $wgUseTeX from
true to false.

Should be back; reload pages as necessary.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Math TeX broken

body:
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 01:39, John R. Owens wrote:
> 	Anything in <math> tags is getting rendered as text right now,
> with all its ugliness. First noticed on the [[speed of light]] page, but
> it's even on the [[Wikipedia:TeX markup]] page, so I would imagine it's
> something wrong with the TeX interpreter. Seems to have been going on
> since the midnight pseudo-downtime, I'd guess. Could someone look into
> this ASAP?

Fixed. Someone had changed the default configuration to disable TeX...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] PHP Accelerator disabled

body:
I've temporarily disabled PHPA, as it was having some weird interaction
on the German Wikipedia which caused it to use the English language file
and display in the wrong character set.

Sigh...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Lee Pilich

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop position request

body:
At 13:35 03/04/2003 -0800, holic fool wrote:
>I, Notheruser, cordially request admin status.

And I cordially request that it be granted. As well as doing lots of other
good stuff, Notheruser has been blanking a lot of junk articles - s/he may
as well be able to delete them outright.

lp (camembert)


subject: [Wikitech-l] PHP Accelerator disabled

body:
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 02:44, Brion Vibber wrote:
> I've temporarily disabled PHPA, as it was having some weird interaction
> on the German Wikipedia which caused it to use the English language file
> and display in the wrong character set.

I found and cleared the PHPA cache files, reenabled PHPA, and so far so
good. Apparently it just didn't refresh the compilation cache files
properly when the PHP files were updated en masse.

So, we have acceleration again. Yippee!

Now I'm going back to bed...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Math TeX broken

body:
	Anything in <math> tags is getting rendered as text right now,
with all its ugliness. First noticed on the [[speed of light]] page, but
it's even on the [[Wikipedia:TeX markup]] page, so I would imagine it's
something wrong with the TeX interpreter. Seems to have been going on
since the midnight pseudo-downtime, I'd guess. Could someone look into
this ASAP?

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
I tried.  I tried to warn them.  But it all happened, just the way I
remembered.
				--Commander Jeffrey David Sinclair


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user (was: Wikipedia privacy)]

body:
Since this would be a system-wide change, not English-only, we should
discuss it over here, too.

----- Forwarded message from "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> -----

From: "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:59:46 -0500
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user (was: Wikipedia privacy)

Well, here's an idea. Give sysops emergency power to ban a logged-in user (by name), while simultaneously blindly banning their IP address -- temporarily. And they'd be honor bound to report the ban to the list, just as when a sysop protects a page to stop an edit war.

For example, user:Skeezix messes up a lot of pages, so sysop BigCheese spends countless hours cleaning up after him and finally says it's not worth it. After some discussion on the mailing list -- or in a really urgent case, unilaterally -- the sysop presses the magic "Ban this logged-in user" button.

Whereupon two things happen:

1. The user's account is blocked.
2. The user's IP address is blocked.

And one thing doesn't happen:

3. No user, not even a sysop, can see the blocked IP.

So if Skeezix tries to log in as user:Spreitel -- he can't because his IP is blocked.

Advantages:

* Stops the vandal cold.
* Avoids revealing IP addresses.

Disadvantages:

* Like all banning mechanisms, it could be abused.
* If the IP is shared by "innocent" parties, they also get blocked.

Ed Poor
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

----- End forwarded message -----


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia privacy

body:
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:43:21 -0800, Jimmy Wales
<jwales at bomis.com> wrote:

> The scenario, which already happened once, is that a hostile person
> decides to make dozens of vandal-edits while logged in.  In an
> emergency like that, sysops can (physically) ban the login id, but the
> bad person just keeps logging in with different ids.
>
> That's what we want to be better able to defend against.
>
We could make it harder to have multiple ID's - requiring each ID to have a
unique email address and verifying that by way of initial password issue
would be one technique.
It's not perfect, because anyone like me who owns a domain still has access
to an infinite number of unique e-mail addresses.
--
What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless,
whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or
the holy name of liberty or democracy?

Richard Grevers
Christchurch, New Zealand


from_name: Jay Bowks

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fwd: [LIG] SITEWATCH: What exactly is gnowledge?

body:
I take it that the obvious misspelling
"Documentaion"
on the left hand side menu is not
an obvious letter for effect change
as with the k>g... otherwise it could
sound as if it were some ancient
Greek name in the accussative case...

Unaccusatively of course,
Jay B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yann Forget" <yann at forget-me.net>
> That's interesting.
> Yann
> URL             :  http://www.gnowledge.org
> Welcome to Gnowledge!
>      By `gnowledge' we mean the knowledge accessible freely for the


from_name: koyaanis qatsi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia privacy

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg writes:

>Actually, for anonymity, I think we shouldn't store
any information
>potentially linking names and IP addresses to
messages. According to the
>"patriot" act, the government can search anything
(like servers) with
>automatic permission from a judge to find evidence
for terrorist
>suspects. If someone were to write on a talk page "I
love Sadam Hussein and
Osama bin Laden", then the government would try to
>trace it to someone,
and if they have DSL, they might find someone and
>"detain" them.  Don't

Oh, it's not hypothetical at all; they'll even
"detain" (or, more properly, "disappear" [and q.v.
Argentinian history for those not understanding that
term] people for something as innocuous as
contributing to certain charities.  It happened
recently with an Intel employee.)

In fact, one (e.g. this one writing) could go so far
as to argue that the U.S. is sprinting towards a
police state, with terrorism already redefined as
"damaging property" and states proposing legislation
to sentence people to 25 years for protesting (oregon)
and to outlaw hiding the content or source of any
transmission online (FL, TX, others.  and note that
this, if passed, would outlaw PGP, firewalls, and
SSL).

I'd argue that now is the time to be proactive, while
it's still legal.  I think it woul be great to encrypt
*all* IP addresses in the database, and to *chronjob
scrap server logs every 24 hours (this is a policy
Bear Pond Books has taken up with customer info.
Agents can request the info, even with no suspicion
the customer has committed a crime; booksellers are
under an immediate gag order about the visit.  no
info?  nothing to give.  and, for those worried about
death threats?  Mav's and Zoe's did not go unnoticed;
they were instead immediately noticed).

I sound like a hopeless paranoiac, I know.
Unbelievers should check out the text of the PATRIOT
Act and the text of the proposed PATRIOT Act II, which
would allow the U.S. government to strip citizenship
from people born in the country, but who at some point
endorse a group the government deems "terrorist" (I'm
assuming they're not yet counting themselves in this
group.)  The hapless Intel employee, under Patriot Act
II would, instead of being disappeared, would be
disappeared and stateless.  Good for prison labor, I
guess.

cheers (or not),

kq

q.v. PATRIOT ACT I
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=11835&c=206

and the exciting sequel, PATRIOT ACT II
http://publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikitech-l] <math> seems to be broken

body:
Currently, math markup seems to be broken in several articles I've
looked at. I've not yet seen one with math markup working.
Is math markup broken?

Neil


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

in_reply_to: <sh65puyumi.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>; from ke@gnu.franken.de on Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 08:39:49PM +0200

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> First make "them" stop cluttering the surroundings with "legal"
> advertisement and the graffity <sp?> problem will vanish soon after :)

?  There is no advertisement on wikipedia.

If you're suggesting that banner ads on Yahoo (for example) are the
sole or primary cause of people posting "fart fart fart" on wikipedia,
I can only say, uh, I disagree.  And in any event, until the communist
revolution comes and I'm shot for being a capitalist, we aren't really
able to test your hypothesis.

--Jimbo


in_reply_to: <sh1y0iyuew.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>; from ke@gnu.franken.de on Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 08:44:23PM +0200

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> writes:
>
> > Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful
> > part of our process.
>
> The more blocks will take place the less people like me are inclined to
> work on the project.

Then we're sorry to see you go.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] <math> seems to be broken

body:
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 10:14, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > (Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>):
> > It seems that someone has changed the default value of $wgUseTeX from
> > true to false.

> I changed it in the CVS code; that should not have affected the
> LocalSettings in the live installation, unless you decided to redo
> it from CVS this time for some reason.

The LocalSettings files had not bothered to set it, as it was on by
default.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Math TeX broken

body:
Thanks for fixing the Tex thing so quickly, Brion. :-)

Ed Poor


from_name: Axel Boldt

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia privacy

body:
--- The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-04-03 at 12:43, John Knouse wrote:
> > In the case of Wikipedia, it's an instrument for public
> > display and use, and anyone posting to it is doing so in a
> > VERY public forum.  I think it's entirely reasonable to
> > request some shred of identity from them.  I don't think it
> > would even be out of line to require people to register
> > before being allowed to edit articles.
>
> Why?

In order to be allowed to distribute a modified version of a GFDL
document, you have to list the person responsible for the modification
(section 4B).

Axel

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: How to ban a logged-in user

in_reply_to: <1049485417.12350.16.camel@mercury.mit.edu>; from cunctator@kband.com on Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 02:43:37PM -0500

body:
The Cunctator wrote:
> > Then we're sorry to see you go.
> >
> He didn't say he'd go. And, as Tonto said, "What do you mean 'we'?"
>
> I agree with Karl that creating more blocks and levels of regulation is
> not the right direction to take Wikipedia.

Fair enough.  I likely overreacted to what I thought he was saying.

--Jimbo


from_name: Toby Bartels

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote in part:

>Vandalism is something different -- vandalism is destroying cities by
>building road where drivers are "free" to drive fast and killing
>children (we Germans are great in this sport ;-((( ).  Or vandalism is
>spoiling oceans with oil.

Gak.  Now an *anti*-banning person doesn't know what "vandalism" means.
These are both evil things, I agree, but not every evil act is vandalism.
Deliberately writing POV articles is not vandalism
(as we have recently had to remind several people on the [[en:]] list),
and making poor regulatory decisions is not vandalism either.
If you want a catch-all term for every evil act, the word is "evil".
Let's save the word "vandalism" for vandalism,
lest language become useless when every word has exactly the same meaning.

-- Toby


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] <math> seems to be broken

body:
> (Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>):
> On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 01:28, Neil Harris wrote:
> > Currently, math markup seems to be broken in several articles I've
> > looked at. I've not yet seen one with math markup working.
> > Is math markup broken?
>
> It seems that someone has changed the default value of $wgUseTeX from
> true to false.
>
> Should be back; reload pages as necessary.

I changed it in the CVS code; that should not have affected the
LocalSettings in the live installation, unless you decided to redo
it from CVS this time for some reason.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Christopher Mahan

body:
> Let's save the word "vandalism" for vandalism,

and let's not forget the fine article on vandals on the P.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia privacy

body:
Sean Barrett wrote:

>You've got Descartes before Horace.  People have the right to remain
>anonymous, and aren't required to show why they "need" to.

I agree.

The problem is that there is no anonymity on the Internet.
Not at the level of IP numbers at least.  It's a myth.

And Wikipedia should not contribute to this myth.
I don't support giving sysops secret superpowers when it can be avoided,
which is why I think that *anybody* should be able to see *any* IP number.
And we should make it very clear up front that edits are logged by IP number,
so that nobody gets the wrong impression and falls for the myth anymore.
Let it be clear to all involved that wherever you go on Wikipedia
(and indeed wherever you go on the World Wide Web),
the sites that you go to know your IP address and log it forever.

If you want to retain your anonymity, then, your *only* recourse is your ISP,
since only they can make the link between your IP number and your identity.
Wikipedia shouldn't fool anybody about that.  We know your IP address,
and so does every other site that you visit.  Never think otherwise.

-- Toby
   138.23.202.213


body:
> You will not solve a single "problem" by banning.  All these problems
> are communication problems or these involved parties are simply psycho
> cases needing our support.

That pleasant sentiment has been handily disproven here.  Some people
just refuse or aren't capable of playing well with others, and simply
removing them from the mix has enabled us to concentrate on our goal
of making an encyclopedia--if we have to take time out to support or
reform every vandal, we'd never get anything else accomplished.
Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful
part of our process.

The only question is in the details: who can block whom, when, how.
Generally the wiki way is give liberal permissions to lots of people,
and fix any screw-ups after the fact if needed.  I don't see any
reason why this process should be any different.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
> (Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org>):
>
> [[Wikipedia is not]] a mental health treatment facility.

Damn, I wish I'd thought of that line. I hope you don't mind if
I steal it now and then. :-)

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Andrew

subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin Status Request

body:
Hi All,

I too would like to request admin status,

Andrew (Ams80)


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How
  to ban a logged-in user

body:
At 07:06 PM 4/4/03 +0200, Karl wrote:
>Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> writes:
>
> > Since this would be a system-wide change, not English-only, we should
> > discuss it over here, too.
>
>You will not solve a single "problem" by banning.  All these problems
>are communication problems or these involved parties are simply psycho
>cases needing our support.

[[Wikipedia is not]] a mental health treatment facility. People with mental
problems may benefit from many kinds of support, but it is not our mission
or obligation to provide them.

There really are people who enjoy spraying obscenities on other people's
walls and Web sites. If you know how to stop them from wanting that, you
should publish the technique, preferably in a peer-reviewed journal so it
will receive wide circulation. In the meantime, we repaint walls, buy
paint-resistant
subway cars, and otherwise prevent and deal with vandalism.

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


body:
At 12:24 PM 4/4/03 -0600, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > (Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org>):
> >
> > [[Wikipedia is not]] a mental health treatment facility.
>
>Damn, I wish I'd thought of that line. I hope you don't mind if
>I steal it now and then. :-)

Help yourself. Attribute or not, as you like--this is a Wikipedia
thing, after all. (Unlike you, I'm not putting all my works in the
public domain--I have hopes of selling a few more of them--but
I play by Wikipedia rules when doing Wikipedia things.)

>--
>Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
>"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
>are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
>for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


body:
> > I agree with Karl that creating more blocks and levels of regulation is
> > not the right direction to take Wikipedia.
>
> Fair enough.  I likely overreacted to what I thought he was saying.
> --Jimbo

I think you got it right the first time; Karl was /not/ saying that
adding more blocks is the wrong direction to go--he was quite clearly
advocating removing even the ones we have now, which should be reacted
to with incredulity, because Wikipedia would not have been successful
without them.

The more moderate idea that any suggestion of new regulations should
be met with skepticism and avoided without demonstrated need is a more
reasonable one, but even there I tend to disagree.  We aren't setting
ourselves up as "police"--police interfere with /other/ people's lives.
We're just exercising rational self-defense.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
> (Karl Eichwalder <ke at gnu.franken.de>):
>
> To put it different: the more you try to make wikipedia a paradise or
> an ivory tower the more it's an interesting object for, ehm, interested
> parties.

What we're trying to make Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is simply a
fact of reality that there will be people who disagree with /that/ goal,
and who want to make Wikipedia something else, like a community, or a
news medium, or their personal playground.  It's our job to make sure
that it becomes an encyclopedia.  That goal will not change, and anyone
who actively interferes with that goal will be invited to pursue his
interests elsewhere.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Sascha Noyes

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia privacy

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Friday 04 April 2003 12:42 pm, koyaanis qatsi wrote:
> Daniel Ehrenberg writes:
> >Actually, for anonymity, I think we shouldn't store
>
> any information
>
> >potentially linking names and IP addresses to
>
> messages. According to the
>
> >"patriot" act, the government can search anything
>
> (like servers) with
>
> >automatic permission from a judge to find evidence
>
> for terrorist
>
> >suspects. If someone were to write on a talk page "I
>
> love Sadam Hussein and
> Osama bin Laden", then the government would try to
>
> >trace it to someone,
>
> and if they have DSL, they might find someone and
>
> >"detain" them.  Don't
>
> Oh, it's not hypothetical at all; they'll even
> "detain" (or, more properly, "disappear" [and q.v.
> Argentinian history for those not understanding that
> term] people for something as innocuous as
> contributing to certain charities.  It happened
> recently with an Intel employee.)
>
> In fact, one (e.g. this one writing) could go so far
> as to argue that the U.S. is sprinting towards a
> police state, with terrorism already redefined as
> "damaging property" and states proposing legislation
> to sentence people to 25 years for protesting (oregon)
> and to outlaw hiding the content or source of any
> transmission online (FL, TX, others.  and note that
> this, if passed, would outlaw PGP, firewalls, and
> SSL).
>
> I'd argue that now is the time to be proactive, while
> it's still legal.  I think it woul be great to encrypt
> *all* IP addresses in the database, and to *chronjob
> scrap server logs every 24 hours (this is a policy
> Bear Pond Books has taken up with customer info.
> Agents can request the info, even with no suspicion
> the customer has committed a crime; booksellers are
> under an immediate gag order about the visit.  no
> info?  nothing to give.  and, for those worried about
> death threats?  Mav's and Zoe's did not go unnoticed;
> they were instead immediately noticed).
>
> I sound like a hopeless paranoiac, I know.
> Unbelievers should check out the text of the PATRIOT
> Act and the text of the proposed PATRIOT Act II, which
> would allow the U.S. government to strip citizenship
> from people born in the country, but who at some point
> endorse a group the government deems "terrorist" (I'm
> assuming they're not yet counting themselves in this
> group.)  The hapless Intel employee, under Patriot Act
> II would, instead of being disappeared, would be
> disappeared and stateless.  Good for prison labor, I
> guess.
>
> cheers (or not),
>
> kq
>
> q.v. PATRIOT ACT I
> http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=11835&c=206
>
> and the exciting sequel, PATRIOT ACT II
> http://publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&
>L4=0&L5=0

cryptome.org has some interesting (as always) documents on web page access
logging and log retention:

http://cryptome.org/usage-logs.htm
and
http://cryptome.org/no-logs.htm

I agree with one of the person quoted in the above documents that rather than
logging by default, there should be a concrete need for logging to justify
its use.

What does wikipedia log, and for how long are the logs retained?

Sascha Noyes
- --
Please encrypt all correspondence.
PGP key available from:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/noyes/snoyes.asc
- --
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE+jdnPgzJdfX+cTW8RAtDHAJ4t1z2oyiwbcTJP6WHaCVvnjcMaBwCfW+Zy
/GvGYehSf1FCwEzv5d4wX8M=
=Li/3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia privacy

body:
--- The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 13:52, Axel Boldt wrote:

> > In order to be allowed to distribute a modified version of a
> > GFDL document, you have to list the person responsible for
> > the modification (section 4B).
>
> No; the GFDL states you have to list "one or more persons or entities
> responsible for authorship of the modifications".
>
> Note: "entity". "The Wikipedia Contributors" is such an entity.

No. If Helga makes an edit somewhere, then the vast majority of the
"Wikipedia Contributors" won't even know about it, and even if they
did, they certainly have never agreed to be "responsible" for her work.

You might just as well use "Humanity" as the entity. Clearly, that's
trying to circumvent the intended meaning of clause 4B.

> Note also "one or more persons". Not "every person".

If Helga makes a modification, then there is only one person, Helga,
responsible for it. "Every person" and "one or more persons" is the
same in this case.

> There is nothing in the GFDL that makes anonymous edits problematic.

There sure is.

Axel

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia privacy

body:
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 13:52, Axel Boldt wrote:
>
> --- The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2003-04-03 at 12:43, John Knouse wrote:
> > > In the case of Wikipedia, it's an instrument for public
> > > display and use, and anyone posting to it is doing so in a
> > > VERY public forum.  I think it's entirely reasonable to
> > > request some shred of identity from them.  I don't think it
> > > would even be out of line to require people to register
> > > before being allowed to edit articles.
> >
> > Why?
>
> In order to be allowed to distribute a modified version of a GFDL
> document, you have to list the person responsible for the modification
> (section 4B).

No; the GFDL states you have to list "one or more persons or entities
responsible for authorship of the modifications".

Note: "entity". "The Wikipedia Contributors" is such an entity.

Note also "one or more persons". Not "every person".

There is nothing in the GFDL that makes anonymous edits problematic.


references:
<20030404051324.B24906@joey.bomis.com>
	<shistuyyyf.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de> <20030404182303.GB10809@piclab.com>
	<sh1y0iyuew.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>  <20030404103942.D31192@joey.bomis.com>

body:
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 13:39, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> > Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> writes:
> >
> > > Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful
> > > part of our process.
> >
> > The more blocks will take place the less people like me are inclined to
> > work on the project.
>
> Then we're sorry to see you go.
>
He didn't say he'd go. And, as Tonto said, "What do you mean 'we'?"

I agree with Karl that creating more blocks and levels of regulation is
not the right direction to take Wikipedia.


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop position request

body:
John R. Owens wrote:
>	I'll do you one better. I, JohnOwens (in case >you
couldn't guess), UNcordially request admin >status. ;)
>
>	Oh yeah, UNcordially, I guess I'm supposed to >stick
my tongue out at you or something now. :p >Consider it
done.
>

As I've stated on John's talk page I think he would
make an excellent addition to the Admin ranks. He
already wipes newbie experiments and vandalism faster
than I do.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

[[WikiKarma]]
The usual at [[March 31]]

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] frames

body:
I have a potential solution to the heavy server use problem.  We could make an optional frame skin where the person only loads the article page instead of reloading the whole thing. With the pictures in the skin that reload every time on some browsers, this could signifigantly take some load off the server.

---------------------------------
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] How to ban a logged-in user

body:
On 4/4/03 3:01 PM, "Lee Daniel Crocker" <lee at piclab.com> wrote:

>> (Karl Eichwalder <ke at gnu.franken.de>):
>>
>> To put it different: the more you try to make wikipedia a paradise or
>> an ivory tower the more it's an interesting object for, ehm, interested
>> parties.
>
> What we're trying to make Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is simply a
> fact of reality that there will be people who disagree with /that/ goal,
> and who want to make Wikipedia something else, like a community, or a
> news medium, or their personal playground.  It's our job to make sure
> that it becomes an encyclopedia.  That goal will not change, and anyone
> who actively interferes with that goal will be invited to pursue his
> interests elsewhere.

However, noone, not even LDC, is the Keeper of the Encyclopedia Ideal.

That is to say, while there are some things that Wikipedia is obviously not,
noone should be able to aver with definitude what Wikipedia will be.

An encyclopedia is, at its core, a repository of *all* human knowledge. That
goes far beyond the traditional paper documents that dared claim the title
"encyclopedia".

So, while it's true that anyone who interferes with the goal of building an
encyclopedia shouldn't be part of Wikipedia, we all should be a little
humble about believing we know exactly how that goal should be realized.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] frames

body:
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> I have a potential solution to the heavy server use problem.  We could
> make an optional frame skin where the person only loads the article
> page instead of reloading the whole thing. With the pictures in the
> skin that reload every time on some browsers, this could signifigantly
> take some load off the server.

I'll admit I'm prejudiced against frames ;) but I don't think that would
help.

Since many of the links in the sidebar, top, and bottom of the page are
specific to the page being looked at, they're not really suitable for
framing (unless supported by javascript -- shudder!)

The logo images and the style sheet are separate files, and will be cached
by any web browser, separately from the page. On the occasions that they
are requested again (for instance, when someone hits "reload" on a wiki
page that's already up), the files are still unchanged and the server
responds as such, without needing to send them again. Further, if they do
get resent, they are just static files and it's a snap to slurp them off
the disk and send them down the network pipe, no additional processing
required.

Our limiting factor isn't network bandwidth; thanks to Jimbo we have an
obscene amount of available bandwidth. It's processing time and memory
(where using up memory means we have to grab stuff from the disk more,
which is slower and uses more processing time). It's the database
(particularly mass operations like searching, watchlists, most wanted,
orphans, etc) and the wiki->html parsing that need to be better optimized.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The "wikidown" address

body:
The "wikidown" address just got spammed. Since there's no way
to get off of spammers' lists once on, that pretty much demands
that we change it. Further, whatever means we are using to
announce that address to human beings should probably be fixed
to make it less friendly to address-sucking bots.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Alan Greenspan needs to learn about Wikipedia

body:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/BoardDocs/speeches/2003/20030404/default.htm

>For example, though the set up cost of creating an on-line
>encyclopedia may be enormous, the cost of reproduction and
>distribution may be near zero if the means of distribution is the
>Internet. The emergence of an electronic platform for the transmission
>of ideas at negligible marginal cost may therefore be an important
>factor explaining the recent increased conceptualization of the
>GDP. The demand for conceptual products is clearly impeded to a much
>smaller degree by rising marginal cost than is the demand for physical
>products.

The cost isn't *that* enormous, of course, when a free license
empowers volunteers.


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

body:
Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> writes:

> Since this would be a system-wide change, not English-only, we should
> discuss it over here, too.

You will not solve a single "problem" by banning.  All these problems
are communication problems or these involved parties are simply psycho
cases needing our support.

Thus, no banning actions, please.

> Disadvantages:
>
> * Like all banning mechanisms, it could be abused.
> * If the IP is shared by "innocent" parties, they also get blocked.

Yes, these are the side effects making bans even more eval.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: John R. Owens

subject: [WikiEN-l] frames

body:
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Brion Vibber wrote:

> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:15:32 -0800 (PST)
> From: Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] frames
>
<snip>
>
> Our limiting factor isn't network bandwidth; thanks to Jimbo we have an
> obscene amount of available bandwidth. It's processing time and memory
> (where using up memory means we have to grab stuff from the disk more,
> which is slower and uses more processing time). It's the database
> (particularly mass operations like searching, watchlists, most wanted,
> orphans, etc) and the wiki->html parsing that need to be better optimized.

	Just out of curiosity, does the database run on the same box as
the webserver, or is it on another one?

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
(ring...ring...ring)
What do you want, you moon-faced assassin of joy?
				--Londo Mollari


body:
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 18:20, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> http://www.federalreserve.gov/BoardDocs/speeches/2003/20030404/default.htm
> >For example, though the set up cost of creating an on-line
> >encyclopedia may be enormous, the cost of reproduction and
> >distribution may be near zero if the means of distribution is the
> >Internet.
>
> The cost isn't *that* enormous, of course, when a free license
> empowers volunteers.

Depends on whether you count the economic cost of lost office
productivity. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] frames

body:
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 17:21, John R. Owens wrote:
> 	Just out of curiosity, does the database run on the same box as
> the webserver, or is it on another one?

They're presently on the same server, fighting for memory and CPU time.
A second server is on order; once it's arrived and set up, the database
and web server will sit on separate boxes.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org> writes:

> [[Wikipedia is not]] a mental health treatment facility. People with mental
> problems may benefit from many kinds of support, but it is not our mission
> or obligation to provide them.

Sure, but there is no need to try to be a policemen or a juridical
person either

> There really are people who enjoy spraying obscenities on other people's
> walls and Web sites. If you know how to stop them from wanting that,

First make "them" stop cluttering the surroundings with "legal"
advertisement and the graffity <sp?> problem will vanish soon after :)

> you should publish the technique, preferably in a peer-reviewed
> journal so it will receive wide circulation. In the meantime, we
> repaint walls, buy paint-resistant subway cars, and otherwise prevent
> and deal with vandalism.

Vandalism is something different -- vandalism is destroying cities by
building road where drivers are "free" to drive fast and killing
children (we Germans are great in this sport ;-((( ).  Or vandalism is
spoiling oceans with oil.

[Of course, touching foreign walls or windows isn't legal!  But as long
as you try to fight against the kids it's you who will be the looser.]

[I must check wikipedias what they tell us about vandalism ;) ]

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


body:
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> writes:

> Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful
> part of our process.

The more blocks will take place the less people like me are inclined to
work on the project.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin Status Request

body:
Andrew (Ams80) wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I too would like to request admin status,

I'll speak for Arms80 (or second or whatever we do)

He would be a great addition to the admin list.

Regards,

sannse


body:
Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> writes:

> ?  There is no advertisement on wikipedia.

I did not claim that.

To put it different: the more you try to make wikipedia a paradise or
an ivory tower the more it's an interesting object for, ehm, interested
parties.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] (no subject)

body:
"
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] The "wikidown" address
Message-ID: <20030405072235.GA16635 at piclab.com>
References: <20030405001619.GA13657 at piclab.com> <8jGa0Y6SpVB at erik_moeller>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <8jGa0Y6SpVB at erik_moeller>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i
X-URL: http://www.piclab.com/lee/

> (Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de>):
> > The "wikidown" address just got spammed. Since there's no way
> > to get off of spammers' lists once on, that pretty much demands
> > that we change it. Further, whatever means we are using to
> > announce that address to human beings should probably be fixed
> > to make it less friendly to address-sucking bots.
>
> What about spamassassin? It's a pretty decent filter that should catch
> most of the spam. Getting and staying off spammers' lists seems like a
> futile exercise, and many people have now memorized the wikidown address.

I run SpamAssassin at Piclab; it's great--it reduces my mail from
about 200-300 a day down to 20-30.  But the "wikidown" address is
attached to my pager, so even one a day is a nuisance.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] (no subject)

body:
Talking about wikidown...

It seems it is down again

but I don't remember the adress :-(
is it wikidown at bomis.com ?

--- Thomas Corell <T.Corell at t-online.de> wrote:
> Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
>
> > I run SpamAssassin at Piclab; it's great--it
> reduces my mail from
> > about 200-300 a day down to 20-30.  But the
> "wikidown" address is
> > attached to my pager, so even one a day is a
> nuisance.
>
> Well, but if you start changing this address each
> time you get a spam on
> it, try something with a number. And don't expect to
> get one proper mail
> at it anymore.
>
> If Wikipedia is down, no user has a chance to look
> around for the
> wikidownoftoday email address. He/she only will
> remember the mail
> address read some months ago.
>
> Smurf
> --
> -------------------------  Anthill inside!
> ---------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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from_name: Jason Richey

subject: [Wikitech-l] test3

body:
--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
> http://www.federalreserve.gov/BoardDocs/speeches/2003/20030404/default.htm

>> For example, though the set up cost of creating an on-line
>> encyclopedia may be enormous, the cost of reproduction and
>> distribution may be near zero if the means of distribution is the
>> Internet. The emergence of an electronic platform for the transmission
>> of ideas at negligible marginal cost may therefore be an important
>> factor explaining the recent increased conceptualization of the
>> GDP. The demand for conceptual products is clearly impeded to a much
>> smaller degree by rising marginal cost than is the demand for physical
>> products.

> The cost isn't *that* enormous, of course, when a free license
> empowers volunteers.

Strangely enough, I was expecting Greenspan to mention Wikipedia any
minute when I read that ;-). But we haven't reached that point yet -- I'm
sure we will, though.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The "wikidown" address

body:
> The "wikidown" address just got spammed. Since there's no way
> to get off of spammers' lists once on, that pretty much demands
> that we change it. Further, whatever means we are using to
> announce that address to human beings should probably be fixed
> to make it less friendly to address-sucking bots.

What about spamassassin? It's a pretty decent filter that should catch
most of the spam. Getting and staying off spammers' lists seems like a
futile exercise, and many people have now memorized the wikidown address.

Regard,

Erik


in_reply_to:
<BAB3683E.8175%cunctator@kband.com> (The Cunctator's message of
 "Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:50:06 -0500")

body:
The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> writes:

> On 4/4/03 3:01 PM, "Lee Daniel Crocker" <lee at piclab.com> wrote:

>> What we're trying to make Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is simply a
>> fact of reality that there will be people who disagree with /that/ goal,
>> and who want to make Wikipedia something else, like a community, or a
>> news medium, or their personal playground.

It just depends on the kind of playground you prefer; thus far
wikipedia works as my playground ;)  Mostly...

>> It's our job to make sure that it becomes an encyclopedia.  That goal
>> will not change, and anyone who actively interferes with that goal
>> will be invited to pursue his interests elsewhere.

For example, I'm convince it isn't okay to add am*zon book links; but
the guys who have the power just think different.  So what?  And that
link is that sophisticated that I as a user cannot do anything about it
:-(

> That is to say, while there are some things that Wikipedia is obviously not,
> noone should be able to aver with definitude what Wikipedia will be.
>
> An encyclopedia is, at its core, a repository of *all* human knowledge. That
> goes far beyond the traditional paper documents that dared claim the title
> "encyclopedia".

Thanks for your warm words I fully agree with.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: The "wikidown" address

in_reply_to:
<8jGa0Y6SpVB@erik_moeller> (erik_moeller@gmx.de's message of
 "05 Apr 2003 05:59:00 +0200")

body:
erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:

> What about spamassassin? It's a pretty decent filter that should catch
> most of the spam. Getting and staying off spammers' lists seems like a
> futile exercise, and many people have now memorized the wikidown address.

Yes, that's the right approach to solve the problem.  Last month I
started using bogofilter and I'm pleased by it.  bogofilter isn't that
resource hungry as spamass*ssin (which isn't a nice name either).

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop position request

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>John R. Owens wrote:
>
>
>>	I'll do you one better. I, JohnOwens (in case >you
>>
>>
>couldn't guess), UNcordially request admin >status. ;)
>
>
>>	Oh yeah, UNcordially, I guess I'm supposed to >stick
>>
>>
>my tongue out at you or something now. :p >Consider it
>done.
>
>
>
>As I've stated on John's talk page I think he would
>make an excellent addition to the Admin ranks. He
>already wipes newbie experiments and vandalism faster
>than I do.
>
>
>
Indeed. I have deleted a lot of experiment pages that John has already
blanked.
It would be more efficient if he could delete them himself :-)


from_name: koyaanis qatsi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: wikipedia privacy

body:
Toby writes:
> If you want to retain your anonymity, then, your
> *only* recourse is your ISP, since only they
> can make the link between your IP number and
> your identity.  Wikipedia shouldn't fool
> anybody about that.  We know your IP address,
> and so does every other site that you visit.
> Never think otherwise.

Well, there are always VPNs and free & publicly
available web proxies.  Oops, I thought otherwise.
;-)

kq

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikipedia-l] (no subject)

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

> I run SpamAssassin at Piclab; it's great--it reduces my mail from
> about 200-300 a day down to 20-30.  But the "wikidown" address is
> attached to my pager, so even one a day is a nuisance.

Well, but if you start changing this address each time you get a spam on
it, try something with a number. And don't expect to get one proper mail
at it anymore.

If Wikipedia is down, no user has a chance to look around for the
wikidownoftoday email address. He/she only will remember the mail
address read some months ago.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Giskart

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user (was: Wikipedia privacy)]

body:
> Well, here's an idea. Give sysops emergency power to ban a logged-in
> user (by name), while simultaneously blindly banning their IP address
> -- temporarily. And they'd be honor bound to report the ban to the
> list, just as when a sysop protects a page to stop an edit war.

It is better than nothing but why not keep it simple?

Show the ip-adress of all users to sysop's and give sysop's the power to
block them.

--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [WikiEN-l] frames

body:
I tried that in Phase 2. Didn't really work, for the reasons Brion gave.

Magnus

Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> I have a potential solution to the heavy server use problem.  We could
> make an optional frame skin where the person only loads the article page
> instead of reloading the whole thing. With the pictures in the skin that
> reload every time on some browsers, this could signifigantly take some
> load off the server.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop position request

body:
JohnOwens is a sysop now.

Magnus

tarquin wrote:
>
>
> Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
>> John R. Owens wrote:
>>
>>
>>>     I'll do you one better. I, JohnOwens (in case >you
>>>
>>
>> couldn't guess), UNcordially request admin >status. ;)
>>
>>
>>>     Oh yeah, UNcordially, I guess I'm supposed to >stick
>>>
>>
>> my tongue out at you or something now. :p >Consider it
>> done.
>>
>>
>> As I've stated on John's talk page I think he would
>> make an excellent addition to the Admin ranks. He
>> already wipes newbie experiments and vandalism faster
>> than I do.
>>
>>
> Indeed. I have deleted a lot of experiment pages that John has already
> blanked.
> It would be more efficient if he could delete them himself :-)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] server down

body:
aparently, the wikipedia server is down.  This hasn't been reported on the list, although this might have been because the email server is down too.

---------------------------------
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from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] April 5

body:
Unfortunately, that didn't work -- it just gave me the "database locked" page again.
And I *had* clicked on Preview.  That was where I got the error.  I always do Preview when I'm making large edits, so I can copy it in case of an edit conflict.  I'm just mad at myself for not getting it in under the wire.
Zoe
 Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:On Thu, 2003-04-03 at 21:09, Zoe wrote:
> I spent about 15 minutes working on [[April 5]] only to have the
> database lockout hit me just as I saw saving. I have no interest in
> doing all that work again. Mav, have at it.

Normally, one hits "back", and copies the text from the edit box, and
pastes it into a nice text file.

In case this is problematic on Internet Explorer and other notoriously
wikipedia-unfriendly browsers, I've just tweaked it so that trying to
save a page during lockout in the future will divert to a preview,
giving you a chance to copy the text without hitting 'back'.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature name=signature.asc

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body:
What?!  You really believe that NOBODY should EVER be banned?
Zoe
 Karl Eichwalder <ke at gnu.franken.de> wrote:Jimmy Wales writes:

> Since this would be a system-wide change, not English-only, we should
> discuss it over here, too.

You will not solve a single "problem" by banning. All these problems
are communication problems or these involved parties are simply psycho
cases needing our support.

Thus, no banning actions, please.

> Disadvantages:
>
> * Like all banning mechanisms, it could be abused.
> * If the IP is shared by "innocent" parties, they also get blocked.

Yes, these are the side effects making bans even more eval.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home): |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o
Free Translation Project: | _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ | (*)/'(*)
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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body:
Why would some vandal's being blocked make you want to leave?
Zoe
 Karl Eichwalder <ke at gnu.franken.de> wrote:Lee Daniel Crocker writes:

> Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful
> part of our process.

The more blocks will take place the less people like me are inclined to
work on the project.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home): |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o
Free Translation Project: | _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ | (*)/'(*)
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop position request

body:
On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Magnus Manske wrote:

> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 11:11:18 +0200
> From: Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de>
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop position request
>
> JohnOwens is a sysop now.
>
> Magnus
>
> tarquin wrote:
> >
> > Daniel Mayer wrote:
> >
> >> John R. Owens wrote:
> >>
> >>>     I'll do you one better. I, JohnOwens (in case >you
> >>> couldn't guess), UNcordially request admin >status. ;)
> >>
> >>>     Oh yeah, UNcordially, I guess I'm supposed to >stick
> >>> my tongue out at you or something now. :p >Consider it
> >> done.
> >>
> >>
> >> As I've stated on John's talk page I think he would
> >> make an excellent addition to the Admin ranks. He
> >> already wipes newbie experiments and vandalism faster
> >> than I do.
> >>
> >>
> > Indeed. I have deleted a lot of experiment pages that John has already
> > blanked.
> > It would be more efficient if he could delete them himself :-)
> >
>

	Not like I can tell at the moment, or anything. ;)

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
Squire, hand me my LART!!
				--John Owens


from_name: julien.tayon at libroscope.org

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikidown  ++

body:
the purpose of wikidown is to know wether wiki is down or not, right ?
If (and only if so), why not use a tool rather than human mails such as the
former netsaint (now nagios) tool?

Friendly yours,

Julien Tayon


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia unscheduled downtime

body:
The server was down for almost a full day, apparently thanks to a crash
which involved a slight bit of filesystem corruption which it couldn't
_quite_ recover from on bootup without a human coming in and saying
"yes, repair that sector".

I love computers. :)

Huge thanks to Jason Richey, who drove in to the hosting center to beat
up on the server in person tonight.

The server is back up; I've locked the wiki while double-checking the
database tables for corruption.

Messages to the mailing lists sent in the last day should come through,
but some may take a while to get resent from intermediate mail servers.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikipedia unscheduled downtime

body:
The server was down for almost a full day, apparently thanks to a crash
which involved a slight bit of filesystem corruption which it couldn't
_quite_ recover from on bootup without a human coming in and saying
"yes, repair that sector".

I love computers. :)

Huge thanks to Jason Richey, who drove in to the hosting center to beat
up on the server in person tonight.

The server is back up; I've locked the wiki while double-checking the
database tables for corruption.

Messages to the mailing lists sent in the last day should come through,
but some may take a while to get resent from intermediate mail servers.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: server down

body:
On Sunday 06 April 2003 05:00 am, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> aparently, the wikipedia server is down.  This hasn't been reported on the
> list, although this might have been because the email server is down too.

You might be surprised to know that the Wikipedia encyclopedia and the
Wikipedia mail server are both on the same box.

Could all the mailing lists work just fine on a separate cheapo AMD K6-II 500
MHZ Linux box with two 4 gig hard drives, 256MB of SDRAM and a couple network
cards? If so, I hereby donate such a dinosaur to serve as a mail server (of
course I'll have to test these components to see if they still work so the
specs may change - somebody else will have to configure the mail server part
though).

Not being able to talk to each other as a group during a crash like this isn't
exactly an optimal way to run a project the size of Wiki(p/m)edia.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 29]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: server down


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop position request

body:
> JohnOwens is a sysop now.
>
> Magnus

I think Notheruser and Ams80 might have been missed?  They have requested
and been backed for sysops.

Or maybe the mail saying it's been done is just backed up at the server - in
which case just ignore me :P

(Of course, me spelling Ams80 wrong in my last message might have confused
things - sorry Andrew!)

Regards

sannse


body:
Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> writes:

> Why would some vandal's being blocked make you want to leave?

1. Technically that's impossible.  Worse you might block innocent users
   using the same

2. I don't trust in sysops; I wouldn't even trust in me.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Do you want the complete Wikipedia on your
	handheld? Read here how to do this.

body:
On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 11:59, Erik Zachte wrote:
> I have converted the whole English Wikipedia to a TomeRaider file.
> The complete file is now available on my Pocket PC.

Cool!

> I chose to strip all meta info (discussions, user pages, etc).

Be sure to include a URL to the original site for each page.

>  Images are not supported.

Note that some images include alt text, which should be preserved:

  [[Image:filename.ext|Alt text if image not available]]

> I wrote a perl script to accomplish this. Unfortunately I do not have
> the web space or bandwidth to offer the file for download from my site.
>
> So either any user or the Wikipedia support team will have to redo the
> conversion. Conversion to a TomeRaider input file is completely
> automated. Conversion plus import in TomeRaider takes about 90 minutes
> on my 500 MHz PC.

Creating the TomeRaider file seems to require proprietary Windows-only
software, but if there's interest we could periodically produce the
converted dumps which can be used as input to it.

> For screen shots and additional info about how to do this yourself:
> http://members.ams.chello.nl/epzachte/Wikipedia

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] The sever is running extremely slowly

body:
It's taking upwards of three minutes just to get an Edit command to bring up an Edit screen.

Zoe

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from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: server down

body:
> (Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com>):
>
> Could all the mailing lists work just fine on a separate cheapo AMD K6-II 500
> MHZ Linux box...

I'm sure hardware isn't the problem, just convenience.  But it might not
be a bad idea for maybe the wikitech list and possibly the wikidown address
to be run on a different host, maybe even a different colo site (like at
Piclab or even some freemail service).

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: server down

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

> Could all the mailing lists work just fine on a separate cheapo AMD K6-II 500
> MHZ Linux box with two 4 gig hard drives, 256MB of SDRAM and a couple network
> cards? If so, I hereby donate such a dinosaur to serve as a mail server (of
> course I'll have to test these components to see if they still work so the
> specs may change - somebody else will have to configure the mail server part
> though).
>

I think every Pentium 1 @133MHz can run the mailing lists. This host you
describe can handle more.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


body:
On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 15:16, Zoe wrote:
> It's taking upwards of three minutes just to get an Edit command to
> bring up an Edit screen.

I've tweaked up the search some more.

On Karen Johnson's suggestion, the "miser mode" search now goes ahead
and does a title search, which is still quite fast and useful enough for
most purposes, and only then provides the google link for fulltext
searching. Miser mode now goes into effect on weekends as well as
weekdays, but is still only half the day.

Fulltext searching on the other languages and meta is not impeded.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: server down

body:
On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 07:02, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Could all the mailing lists work just fine on a separate cheapo AMD K6-II 500
> MHZ Linux box with two 4 gig hard drives, 256MB of SDRAM and a couple network
> cards? If so, I hereby donate such a dinosaur to serve as a mail server

Yes, that would be more than enough to host the mail (and perhaps the
backup dumps?). Best talk to Jimbo and Jason about transporting and
setting up hardware.

As Lee has suggested, it might also be good to have some stuff at a
separate provider in case the hosting is knocked out altogether.

> Not being able to talk to each other as a group during a crash like this isn't
> exactly an optimal way to run a project the size of Wiki(p/m)edia.

What, you didn't enjoy your nice relaxing 22-hour break from routine? :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: server down

body:
On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 07:02, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Could all the mailing lists work just fine on a separate cheapo AMD K6-II 500
> MHZ Linux box with two 4 gig hard drives, 256MB of SDRAM and a couple network
> cards? If so, I hereby donate such a dinosaur to serve as a mail server

Yes, that would be more than enough to host the mail (and perhaps the
backup dumps?). Best talk to Jimbo and Jason about transporting and
setting up hardware.

As Lee has suggested, it might also be good to have some stuff at a
separate provider in case the hosting is knocked out altogether.

> Not being able to talk to each other as a group during a crash like this isn't
> exactly an optimal way to run a project the size of Wiki(p/m)edia.

What, you didn't enjoy your nice relaxing 22-hour break from routine? :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Torsten Bronger

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: server down

body:
Halloechen!

Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> writes:

> On Sunday 06 April 2003 05:00 am, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
>> aparently, the wikipedia server is down.  This hasn't been reported on the
>> list, although this might have been because the email server is down too.
>
> You might be surprised to know that the Wikipedia encyclopedia and the
> Wikipedia mail server are both on the same box.
>
> [...]
>
> Not being able to talk to each other as a group during a crash like this isn't
> exactly an optimal way to run a project the size of Wiki(p/m)edia.

In this context I have a question: I have very often problems with
the connection speed to Wikipedia, especially the time when the
first bytes flow after a page request.  Is this a problem on my side
or is the Wikipedia server sometimes just swamped?

Tschoe,
Torsten.


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Do you want the complete Wikipedia on your handheld? Read here how to do this.

body:
I have converted the whole English Wikipedia to a TomeRaider file.
The complete file is now available on my Pocket PC.

You will need a storage card for this: the file is roughly 100 Mb,
contains 145000+ entries (including redirects) and 200 Mb of
(compressed) text.
I chose to strip all meta info (discussions, user pages, etc).

TomeRaider (shareware) is a blindingly fast text retrieval system for
handhelds (Pocket PC, Palm*, and EPOC*) and MS Windows. Index lookup is
sub second. Rendering very large articles or complex html tables may
take a few seconds. Images are not supported. Hyperlinks are. Most html
tags as well.

I wrote a perl script to accomplish this. Unfortunately I do not have
the web space or bandwidth to offer the file for download from my site.

So either any user or the Wikipedia support team will have to redo the
conversion. Conversion to a TomeRaider input file is completely
automated. Conversion plus import in TomeRaider takes about 90 minutes
on my 500 MHz PC.

For screen shots and additional info about how to do this yourself:
http://members.ams.chello.nl/epzachte/Wikipedia

Erik Zachte

* Not tested. I only have a PPC.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: server down

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>>Not being able to talk to each other as a group during a crash like this isn't
>>exactly an optimal way to run a project the size of Wiki(p/m)edia.
>>
>
>What, you didn't enjoy your nice relaxing 22-hour break from routine? :)
>
The number of times that I checked to see if it was back on is cause for
me to worry about myself, :-[

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: server down

body:
Moving the mailing lists to a different machine would be fairly easy
to do.  The only troubles that might arise (that I foresee) are these:

* We have limited rack space in the colo.  All of our current servers
  are either 1U or 2U rackmount servers.  A standard tower-type server
  would be a bit of a squeeze in there...

* we are almost out of IP  addresses in our current block of allocated
  IPs, I don't recall how easy it is for us to have another block
  routed to our cage.

* our remote power control unit is nearly full.  This is currently our
  only means of rebooting a machin that has lost internet connectivity
  (aside from a 200 mile drive by your truly).  Of course, this isn't
  necessarily a deal-breaker, just a thought.  If anybody has a IP
  based KVM switch available... :)

* come to think of power, I'm not sure how many watts we have going
  into that cage either.  Of course, this is also something that can
  be fixed if our current setup doesn't have enough power.

That's my piece...

Jason Richey

Daniel Mayer wrote:

> On Sunday 06 April 2003 05:00 am, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> > aparently, the wikipedia server is down.  This hasn't been reported on the
> > list, although this might have been because the email server is down too.
>
> You might be surprised to know that the Wikipedia encyclopedia and the
> Wikipedia mail server are both on the same box.
>
> Could all the mailing lists work just fine on a separate cheapo AMD K6-II 500
> MHZ Linux box with two 4 gig hard drives, 256MB of SDRAM and a couple network
> cards? If so, I hereby donate such a dinosaur to serve as a mail server (of
> course I'll have to test these components to see if they still work so the
> specs may change - somebody else will have to configure the mail server part
> though).
>
> Not being able to talk to each other as a group during a crash like this isn't
> exactly an optimal way to run a project the size of Wiki(p/m)edia.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
>
> WikiKarma
> The usual at [[March 29]]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>