from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Non-free images, there has to be a better way

body:
Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:

>>But there's a huge difference between an image being the
>>only one of its kind we can get under any circumstances, and being the
>>only image some editor is able to get a hold of.
>>
>>In the past, even with Wikipedia-only permissions discouraged, far too
>>many users have thought it sufficient just to ask for permission without
>>asking for permission under a free license. Allowing this would
>>encourage people to be even more lazy about getting free images.
>>
>>
>I profoundly disagree. Anyone going to the
>trouble of asking for permission to use an
>image *is not being lazy*. The lazy thing
>to do is to slap a fair-use tag on the image
>and don't bother about trying to get permission
>
>
"Fair use" is laziness too in many cases. But my point was that if
you're going to the trouble of asking for permission, which is otherwise
commendable, it is lazy and counterproductive not to take the very
simple step of asking for permission *under a free license*.

Wikipedia is a project to create a free encyclopedia, with "free" as in
free content. Right now we are admittedly imperfect at ensuring that our
content is truly free in that sense. Encouraging people to go out and
get more restrictive content, such as images with Wikipedia-only
permission, undermines the effort to make Wikipedia more free. If
somebody asks for permission for an image under a free license and gets
turned down, I'd be happy to consider whether it might be appropriate to
use that image based on a more limited permission, plus fair use.

--Michael Snow


list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews and London

body:
Dan wrote:
> So I want to ask the board to do this: begin promoting
> Wikinews as widely and as loudly as Wikipedia. We
> proved ourselves yesterday; now we should recieve the
> support and promotion we deserve.

Bravo!

I promote Wikinews every chance I get, and I am lately interviewed as
frequently about Wikinews as I am about Wikipedia.

--Jimbo


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews and London


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Foundation-l] Personal info

body:
In a message dated 7/8/2005 5:30:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
anthere9 at yahoo.com writes:

And yes,  of course, I'll come to Wikimania :-) I just
won't be able to share a  beer.

ant

Congratulations, Anthere. This is really great news. I am so happy for you
and your whole families. If it will help, I will be happy to drink the beer for
 you ;-)

Danny


subject: [Foundation-l] Personal info


list: wikien-l

body:
Matt Brown wrote:

>One thing that I think is needed is to have as policy that if a free
>image can be found to replace a fair use image, then the fair use
>image can be disposed of.  I've experienced a number of times
>situations where users have strenuously resisted getting rid of a fair
>use image they like when a free one comes along.  Some situations,
>indeed, when users have replaced an existing, free image with a fair
>use one because they find, e.g., an official publicity shot more
>'professional' than a photograph by a Wikipedian.
>
>
In general, I think it would be a good guideline. However, I think the
quality of the replacement does need to be considered, though the issue
should not be professionalism as such. Rather, in some cases it's more
the question of "can we confidently say that this blurry photo is
'Subject X'?" If the subject of the free image is clearly identifiable
and there are no reasons to doubt its provenance, then by all means the
fair use one should go.

>For example, there is one user that is using scans of auto magazine
>covers to illustrate articles about the magazine cover's subject.  I
>think that is beyond the scope of fair use.  It's one thing to use a
>Motor Trend cover to illustrate the [[Motor Trend]] article; another
>to use it to illustrate an article about a car that happened to be on
>the cover that month.
>
>
Indeed. At whatever point we manage to organize a serious cleanup of
fair use images, there are two matters to address. One is the presence
of images where the fair use claim is simply bogus. The other is the
whether the use in any given article is actually fair. *Every use* must
be considered separately; the fact that one may be acceptable means very
little when you've moved to an article about a different subject.

--Michael Snow


list: wikipedia-l

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Policy clarification: separate Wikipedias
	for	cultures, peoples, and countries, or for languages?

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Is it considered acceptable to have spearate Wikipedias for different
> cultures and peoples rather than languages? Are any existing
> Wikipedias considered in this capacity?

In general, no, but there are many complications of course relating to
ISO language codes, dialects, languages, etc.

> Robin Patterson has asserted on mi: that rather than a Wikipedia in
> the Maori language, it's intended as a Wikipedia for the Maori people,
> and thus extensive usage of the English language is OK or even good,
> since only 5% of Maori people are fluent in Maori.

He's mistaken.  I would recommend that the use of English be strongly
discouraged there, although it could be tolerated there in the Wikipedia
namespace if some people want to discuss things and they are more
comfortable in English, etc.

--Jimbo


body:
Guaka wrote:
> I don't think that's a good idea. On the Bambara Wikipedia I only added
> French to the Wikipedia: namespace. And my Babel template is bm-1. :)

I think that's a very good way of going about it.  Keep the article
space clean, and of course the Wikipedia namespace should only use
"other" languages if it furthers the overall goal of the encyclopedia.

In the case of Bambara/French, it may well be that the most active
initial contributors will be more comfortable discussing things in
French while they work to spread the word and get access to Bambara
speakers.  I see no reason to push them to discuss things in Bambara
(esp if they are bm-1 speakers!) nor to push them to discuss their plans
in (for example) French wikipedia user pages or whatever.

> When applying for Bambara Wikipedia administratorship I explicitely
> mentioned that I'll drop my administratorship as soon as there are some
> native speaking folks active as administrator. I think that should be a
> general policy for administrators who have only a very small knowledge
> of a language.

That sounds perfect to me.


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] The ongoing trolling

body:
Phil Sandifer (sandifer at sbcglobal.net) [050708 12:22]:

> To clarify for Jimbo, the users in question were [[User:Lleague of
> Responsible Trolls]], who's userpage was a dead ringer for 162, and
> [[User:Involved in trolling]], which I consider equally obvious. I'm
> not sure why David blocked Norrath, but I suspect it had to do with
> being an admitted sockpuppet intended purely to protest the
> aforementioned blocks who was posting on Sam Spade's userpage asking
> if there was an "organized resistance" against the rogue admins.

Indeed. Wikipedia is a project to write an encyclopedia; these sort of
breaching experiment games don't assist that in any way whatsoever.
Probably after this weekend, we'll start kicking the querulous when they've
made their case twenty times and still no-one cares. Because we're PWOER
CRAXZED FACIST ROUGE ADNMINS!!1!one!

- d.


from_name: Wouter Steenbeek

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Policy clarification: separate Wikipedias
	forcultures, peoples

body:
>From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>

>
>Hi all,
>
>I would like to ask for some clarification of Wikimedia policy.
>
>Is it considered acceptable to have spearate Wikipedias for different
>cultures and peoples rather than languages? Are any existing
>Wikipedias considered in this capacity?
>
>Robin Patterson has asserted on mi: that rather than a Wikipedia in
>the Maori language, it's intended as a Wikipedia for the Maori people,
>and thus extensive usage of the English language is OK or even good,
>since only 5% of Maori people are fluent in Maori.
>
We have had thios talk before. I would discourage it. First of all:
Wikipedia is intended to write from a neutral point of view, affected as
little as possible by cultural matters. Second: allowing other content than
language x just because the indigenous are no longer able to speak it
fluently will weaken the position of the language in question. For many
languages, Wikipedia is the first encyclopaedia ever created, so the boost
they might get from this wonderful project my in no way be undone. Third:
the view of what is a language may be deeply influenced by political
matters, but is still much, much better to be mde out than the view of what
makes one culture different from another. Forth: if e.g. the Maori wikipedia
becomes for Maoris rather than in Maori, the Maori languge content will
become unintelligible for the majority of the new target group. And finally:
we should have to close a lot of existing Wikipedias because their cultures
are too similar and duplicate efforts on the other hand by splitting the
English, French and Spanish Wikipedias. So let's maintain the current
situation.

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
Direct antwoord op je vragen: gebruik MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Non-free images, there has to be a better way

body:
Jimmy:

> I am happy to contribute a photo of Mickey Mouse which I took myself
> while visiting Disney World in Florida.  While there might (conceivably,
> but doubtfully) be some complex issues related to copyright in the
> character, I think this is a very very "clean" fair use as compared to,
> for example taking a scan of a drawing directly from Disney or (worse)
> simply downloading an image from a Disney website.

Yes, that's probably true. Disney got a lot of press when they went
after bakeries selling Mickey Mouse cakes. However, it is still fair use
- many Wikipedians seem to believe that a photo of a character, a 3D
figure, or similar can somehow be GFDL. That is not the case. While I
believe in limits to fair use, I think in cases where we will never
conceivably get a free image (high profile cartoon characters being the
best example indeed), fair use needs to remain a legitimate course of
action.

My favorite example of circumventing copyright is still this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Micky.jpg

Maybe we need to talk to WikiProject archaeology. There must be a Bart
Simpson in Pompeii somewhere. :)

> It is my position, speaking generally, that we ought to crack down quite
> a bit on "fair use", not because there are any legal problems with what
> we are doing now, but because it makes it harder for people to reuse in
> jurisdictions with bad fair use provisions, and because an excessive
> reliance on fair use tempts us to be lazy about creating freely licensed
> alternatives.

Strongly agree with the laziness argument. Unfortunately, cracking down
on fair use without prohibiting it entirely is very tricky. Various
approaches have been tried. It would probably be best to give users a
preselection of a number of reasons, and to not allow fair use beyond
that (the number of reasons could be expanded and restricted as we learn
more).

> But for now, I think the first campaigns for cleanup should be (1) any
> remaining untagged images and (2) the elimination of non-free (such as
> "by permission") images.

That makes sense.

Erik


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [Bug 2742] [Enotif] Strange email notification
 when someone made no	changes.

body:
I propose you upgrade at least to 1.4.6+enotifwiki3.11
see sourceforge !

bugzilla-daemon at mail.wikimedia.org schrieb:

>http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2742
>
>
>
>
>
>------- Additional Comments From stas-fomin at yandex.ru  2005-07-08 10:47 UTC -------
>I think that the bug severity="minor", and I will be completely satisfied, I the
>bug will be fixed with  Target Milestone=1.5.
>I just want to notify developers about this bug.
>I should wait 1.5 release (I our company we use 3 installations of MediaWiki
>"1.4.5+ENotif 2.0+our patches"), this bug is not so important for us to remerge
>ENotif in MediaWiki again.
>Thank you for quick reply.
>
>
>


body:
Stan Shebs (shebs at apple.com) [050708 13:34]:

> So as to cull out the unnecessary fair use images, I think we should be
> making
> passes over those, and not be shy about deleting ones that offer nothing
> over
> free versions. Ideally, every fair use image's description page will have a
> special justification for its existence, something that we can defend to any
> skeptics.

Shooting all fair-use images is not a good idea, I agree. Look at [[Xenu]]:
that article uses three fair-use images (the handwriting sample, the cover
of 'Dianetics', the Sea Org logo) in a manner that's blatantly academic
fair use. And even the proudly litigous Church of Scientology has not
uttered *one peep* about the article. Not a dot.

I think a lot of the difficulty is that it's the *use* of the image that's
fair or not, not the image itself or its inclusion in Wikipedia as a whole.
So yeah, a fair-use cat that makes damn sure the justification for each use
is right there on the image page.

There are people who seem to think that fair use is fair game, and if an
image is fair use in one article, it's open slather to use it anywhere.
This is not necessarily the case may be a source of problems.

OTOH, throwing out all fair use images would be throwing the baby out with
the bathwater.

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] little bug on li:

body:
Hi all,

Unless I am very wrong, the bug on li: seems to have disappeared at last.
Thank you, whoever it was, for making us get rid of it!

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Webmessenger: altijd en overal beschikbaar http://webmessenger.msn.com/


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] Social issues for the newer projects

body:
Dan Grey wrote:

>--- SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Michael, thanks for starting such an interesting
>>thread.
>>
>>On 7/7/05, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>So, in that respect, Wikinews is quickly growing
>>>
>>>
>>beyond the point where
>>
>>
>>>the effect you mention is highly significant. I
>>>
>>>
>>also think that in terms
>>
>>
>>>of "quality content", the community has produced
>>>
>>>
>>some excellent material
>>
>>
>>>so far - on par with the best Wikipedia has to
>>>
>>>
>>offer.
>>
>>Surely you exaggerate.  The pinnacle of Wikinews
>>content is still a
>>hasty, impressionist memo next to Wikipedia's
>>nuanced and excellent
>>monographs.
>>
>>But that's just my opinion
>>Cheers,
>>   SJ
>>
>>
>>
>
>Now really, I must take issue here.
>
>Every Wikinews article is npov, fully referenced, and
>fully fact-checked. Only a handful of Wikipedia
>articles, compared to the bulk, are written to such a
>high quality.
>
>
>Dan
>
Hoi,
I do not take issue but want to note to a discrepantion. What you
describe may be true for the en.wikinews but if it is true it is
certainly not true for all the other Wikinews projects. I sincerely hope
that the other projects will be a success. But there is still a lot of
growing to do.

The London bombing had a positive effect on the Dutch Wikinews as well.
I hope we do not need many of these incidents to make the other Wikinews
sites a success too.

Thanks,
   GerardM


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews and London

body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> I promote Wikinews every chance I get, and I am
> lately interviewed as
> frequently about Wikinews as I am about Wikipedia.
>
> --Jimbo

Thank you :-)

Dan

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews and London


from_name: Mark Ryan

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Allowing blocked users to edit their own talk page,
	done

references:
<E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280217F807@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>
	<dajkma$klr$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<bd4c411e05070710015c5bc36b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050707170411.GJ7309@thingy.apana.org.au>
	<dak899$k87$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
What a brilliant move. Thank you, Tim. :)

~Mark Ryan

On 7/8/05, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > Kelly Martin (kelly.lynn.martin at gmail.com) [050708 03:02]:
> >
> >>On 7/7/05, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>I could do a quick hack to allow blocked users to edit their own talk
> >>>page, if that's what you want. It's a much simpler feature to the other
> >>>thing I'm working on at the moment, i.e. per-article blocking.
>
> This is done, enabled on en only. It can be enabled on other wikis on
> request.
>
>
> >>Some people will use that to replace their talk pages with technically
> >>challenging content (e.g. two megabyte uploads, or pages filled with
> >>hundreds of animated images).  But I think we can deal with that in
> >>the long run.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lock the page if need be?
>
> Yes, protection is the way to deal with this.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Guaka

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Policy clarification: separate Wikipedias for
	cultures, peoples, and countries, or for languages?

body:
> Similarly, he wanted to add English content to the Samoan Wikipedia
> because "tens of thousands" of Samoans speak English fluently. It
> should be noted that neither of these languages are his native
> languages. Maori, he lists as a Babel template level of 1 (his French
> and German are better), yet he is the sole administrator at the Maori
> Wikipedia. He noted on his Samoan userpage that he knows only a
> handful of Samoan words, yet he tried to apply there for sysop
> anyways.

I don't think that's a good idea. On the Bambara Wikipedia I only added
French to the Wikipedia: namespace. And my Babel template is bm-1. :)

When applying for Bambara Wikipedia administratorship I explicitely
mentioned that I'll drop my administratorship as soon as there are some
native speaking folks active as administrator. I think that should be a
general policy for administrators who have only a very small knowledge
of a language.


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: URLs

body:
Kate wrote:
>
>         - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
>         - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit
>
>         - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
>         - http://en.wikipedia.org/edit/Main_Page
>         - http://wikipedia.org/en/article/Main_Page
>         - http://wikipedia.org/en/edit/Main_Page

Here is my personal opinion. I don't expect many people to agree, but I
would like it this way most.

I want the "edit" to be at the *end* of the URL, not somewhere in the
middle. That makes it easiest to add to (or remove from) an existing
URL. (I also want the "wiki" to go away. :) )

Hence, the article [[History]] would have:

	http://en.wikipedia.org/History
	http://en.wikipedia.org/History/edit
	http://en.wikipedia.org/History/history

Article titles with a slash in them, such as [[History/edit]] if anyone
ever wanted to create it, could be encoded using a double-slash:

	http://en.wikipedia.org/History//edit
	http://en.wikipedia.org/History//edit/edit
	http://en.wikipedia.org/History//edit/history

This is less alienating than "%28" for parentheses or "%2C" for commas,
but of course one could always use "%2F" for slashes for consistency.

URLs such as
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Pagename/subpage
would then redirect to
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Pagename//subpage
and you could still type a single slash as long as the subpage doesn't
happen to be "edit", "history", or any of the other magic words.

Since these things are just URLs, I don't believe things like "/edit"
need to be internationalised.

Greetings,
Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: URLs

body:
Carlos wrote:
>
>> we now have the choice to replace "action=" with a new path:
>>
>>        - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>        - http://en.wikipedia.org/edit/Main_Page
>>
>> however, at the same time, we could implement a change in the way domain
>> names are used, that has been discussed several times in the past:
>>
>>        - http://wikipedia.org/en/article/Main_Page
>>        - http://wikipedia.org/en/edit/Main_Page
>>
>>
>
> Will "article", "edit", etc., be localizable?

The "edit" button in the UI already is ;-)

I don't think URLs need to be localisable, especially not URLs that only
geeks will want to go to directly.

Timwi


from_name: David Newton

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and U.S. specific laws (was Non-free images
	etc.)

body:
>But that's exactly what's happening as long as
>all the focus is on U.S. laws. Fair use won't
>protect you if you're publishing Wikipedia derived
>content in Denmark. Nor will Bridgeman v. Corel.

>Recently a picture of the Lindisfarne Gospels
>taken from the British Library website became
>a featured picture even though the BL explicitly
>claims copyright on it and that claim may well
>hold up in a British court.

There are two critical facts that people seem to be missing in this
debate. Firstly people moan about things that old having a copyright.
My answer to that is, unfortunately, TOUGH! British copyright law is
NOT just life of the author plus 70 years. That is the rule for
PUBLISHED photographs and works. UNPUBLISHED works have an entirely
different set of rules. If the author of an unpublished work died more
recently than 1968, then the copyright term of published and
unpublished works by that author are exactly the same. For unpublished
works of those authors who died before 1969 then the rule is that
there is a period of 50 years from the time of first publishing, or
2040, whichever is earlier, for copyright to expire.

To take the example of William Shakespare:

1. His published works were out of copyright before the concept even existed.
2. His unpublished works REMAIN IN COPYRIGHT TO THIS DAY.
3. Works published posthumously, and after the invention of copyright,
expired as appropriate to the laws of the day. A Shakespeare work
first published in 1954 would only have come out of copyright six
months ago in the UK.

The second factor that people are missing is that US law on fair use
is irrelevant to this discussion when it comes to images on the
British Library server. That server is physically located in the
United Kingdom. It is therefore governed by the copyright law of the
United Kingdom. Anyone accessing it from the UK is only governed by
British copyright law. Anyone accessing it from another country is
covered both by British copyright law and the copyright law of the
country they are accessing it from.

Those two factors mean that I draw the following conclusions. Unless
it can be shown that the Lindisfarne Gospels were published more than
50 years ago, they are still in copyright in the United Kingdom. Since
they are unique objects, they cannot have been published in their
original form. That means that in order to be published a scholarly
work on them or a facsimilie version would be the most likely sources.
If they are still in copyright, which is most likely the case, then
the British library has every right to slap a copyright notice on
images of them. Even if the images do not themselves qualify for
copyright protection, the object they depict DOES qualify for
copyright protection. Since the object is deliberately, and not
incidentally, included in the scene the photos are derivative works of
that object. Under British copyright law, which is the one we have to
worry about here, the exceptions to copyright are called fair dealing.
It is illegal to copy a photo from a website in the manner which has
been done here. None of the fair dealing exceptions apply.

Discussing US copyright law is irrelevant until British copyright law
is out of the way. If the Lindisfarne Gospels themselves are out of
copyright, then it becomes a whole new ballgame.

David Newton


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

references:
<da9cjv$voc$1@sea.gmane.org>	<20050703194906.GA3749@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>	<da9kp8$4l4$1@sea.gmane.org>	<20050704002459.GA26412@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>	<dahjrm$d4i$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20050706233752.GA29704@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

> If it won't work, report a bug, ask on #debian channel etc.

Thanks for all your help. At this point, however, I think I'm giving up.

Thanks anyway,
Timwi


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: edward molasses

subject: [Wiktionary-l] language link structure question

body:
> Hoi,
> When a word like house is created in the Italian wiktionary, it is a
> foreign word. Much of the information is with the Italian word, casa is
> this case. The way the interwiki links for wiktionary work is that they
> refer to words that are exactly spelled the same way. You may find
> different content for a word that is spelled the same way. The reason
> for this is that it is a lot of work when you have to add all the
> content on all words. So the information is there, it is just one click
> further away.
>
> There have been two big changes in the interwiki world. The first is
> that the English language wiktionary now has its articles spelled in
> their default format; not more first character capitalisation. Many of
> the interwiki links have been changed that way to reflect this. The only
> problem left is that the interwiki software does not handle redirects
> well. When it refers to a redirect it will expect that this redirect is
> correct. In fact if the word is not in the same case, it propably is not.
>
> The other big change has been in the interwiki.py program. It now allows
> you to run the bot and it will check a large number of wiktionaries that
> you can be simultaneously logged on. This means that when a new link is
> found for a word, it will be added to all words that the software is
> aware of.  As you may understand, changes like this take their time to
> mature, however it is a mark of the maturity of the software that so
> many cool things are developped to such a degree of perfection.

hi Gerard,

Thank you very much for the help. I think things are a bit clearer. Am I right
to understand that the interwiki.py program, in the case of Wiktionary, will
automatically update page content with links from a word to it's
corresponding translation in other languages on other wiki sites? I suppose it
would be considered a sort of bot?

Thanks again,
Andrew.


from_name: Ryan McNabb

subject: [WikiEN-l] vandalism notice

body:
The following page has been vandalized and needs to be looked into - I would
have edited it but wasn't able to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen

Thanks
Ryan McNabb


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: URLs

references:
<6019986.1hDDKoznoz@rose.local> <damlqj$ujg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<1120854811.17465.31.camel@localhost.localdomain>

body:
Rob Lanphier wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 20:56 +0100, Timwi wrote:
>
>>Article titles with a slash in them, such as [[History/edit]] if anyone
>>ever wanted to create it, could be encoded using a double-slash:
>>
>>	http://en.wikipedia.org/History//edit
>>	http://en.wikipedia.org/History//edit/edit
>>	http://en.wikipedia.org/History//edit/history
>>
>>This is less alienating than "%28" for parentheses or "%2C" for commas,
>>but of course one could always use "%2F" for slashes for consistency.
>
> I'm not sure if there's a specific prohibition of this practice in any
> spec,

No, there isn't.

> but it does fight typical conventions, which is kind of a bad
> thing.  For example, it appears that Apache throws away extra slashes,
> as can be seen here:
> http://apache.org///foundation////faq.html
> http://apache.org/foundation/faq.html
> IIS seems to do the same thing:
> http://www.microsoft.com////windowsserversystem///default.mspx

I assure you that Apache does not throw away extra slashes. I have
already done the necessary programming to do URLs such as those I have
mentioned. The examples you mentioned don't say anything about the
webservers themselves because both URLs are obviously mappings to a
filesystem (whether virtual or not); it is that filesystem that throws
away the extra slashes (which you can easily test: Both Linux and
Windows allow you to put double-/ resp. double-\ in a path and it won't
complain).

Compare:
	http://www.livejournal.com/manage/index.bml
and
	http://www.livejournal.com/manage//index.bml

They show the same page because the path is a mapping to a filesystem,
but the pages are different because the individual strings on it are
retrieved from codes that are based on the path. Those codes contain
only single slashes, so the second page is missing those strings. This
clearly shows that it's the filesystem and not Apache that "throws away"
double-slashes.

> Mixing subpages into the action namespace seems like a bad idea.
> Arguably its worse when its only the exception, because that means it'll
> be something that will always need to be accommodated, but rare enough
> that its often forgotten.

I don't understand what you're saying here. I'm not "mixing" anything.
The rest doesn't seem to make any sense. Can you rephrase this?

> In the spirit of putting the action at the end, perhaps this syntax
> would work:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/Pagename?action=edit
> http://en.wikipedia.org/Pagename?action=history

Of course it would "work", but it's not what I want because "?action="
is a pain to type.

Timwi


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A Perhaps OT Post -- My Wikipedia Talk

body:
Geoff Burling a ?crit:
> I'm not sure if this is the right place to share this report,
> seeing how it does not concern alleged misbehavior of admins,
> or directly applies to any other topic recently covered here,
> but I'd like to confess that I gave a presentation on Wikipedia
> last night to the local Linux Users' Group here in Portland
> (aka, PLUG) that was quite warmly received. The entire
> audience, about 30-40 in number, who I feel are a reasonable
> sampling of the technical elite of this town (with one very
> obvious exception), were all very familiar with Wikipedia,
> & quite interested to learn more.
>
> I tried to cover the basics of Wikipedia: the software, the
> hardware, how Wikipedia works, all of the projects associated
> with it -- & the eternal problem of being sure that its content
> was reliable. I also tried to cover the community angle of
> Wikipedia, comparing it to the communities that have evolved
> with various Open Source software projects, Linux in particular,
> but at that point I felt I had been talking too long & forced
> myself to be very brief.
>
> Some feedback from the audience I thought people here might
> be interested in:
> * A lot of questions about copyright, & how we make sure people
> do not slip copyright violations in.
> * Everyone wanted to see the Klingon Wikipedia Front Page.
> * The issue of sex-related content came up, which led to a
> review of a number of existing Wikipedia articles, including
> [[autofellatio]]. (I told an Intel employee who wanted me to
> show that page, "I'll let you take a look at it tomorrow at
> work.")
> * People were impressed in the fact that the emphasis at Wikipedia
> is not on regulating content, but in regulating the behavior
> of its contributors.
> * One person asked if the goals of Commons & Wikisource don't
> overlap the goals of the Gutenberg Project. I'm not sure I
> gave the right answer to his question.
> * Another person afterwards buttonholed me, & proposed Yet
> Another Method of stablizing Wikipedia content for the 1.0
> release. I tried to assure him that David Gerard had the issue
> well in hand, & was working towards a workable implementation that
> would likely be released in 12 months' time.
>
> I was also asked some in depth technical questions about how
> the servers handle the load on Wikipedia, something I know
> very little about -- but would be of immense interest to a lot
> of people. I also know that SysAdmin & Linux Journal pay money
> for articles they publish, so if someone who knows would make
> the effort to write an account, it would help subsidize their
> Wikiholicism. ;)
>
> If anyone is interested in the slides to this presentation (I
> created 9 html files with links to selected pages), I'd be happy
> to share my work.
>
> Geoff

Thanks for the report Geoff :-) If you could upload (or link) your
presentation here (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations), you
would be most welcome.

Ant


from_name: Jerome Jamnicky

subject: [Foundation-l] London 7/7, and Wikinews

body:
Dan Grey wrote:

[snip]

> We were the first on the web with the news, anywhere:
> http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Coordinated_terrorist_attack_hits_London&oldid=96968
>
> Within a few hours, a team of people were working to
> create the most up-to-date and most authorative news
> article anywhere on the Internet. Co-ordinating
> ourselves largely through the IRC channel (which
> anyone can access with just their browser using a
> simple link), we had people from both around the world
> and right in London searching for photographs, getting
> permission to use them, taking notes from spokesmen
> and press conferences, and constantly updating and
> fact-checking our articles.
>
> Twenty-four hours later, our main article -
>
> http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Coordinated_terrorist_attack_hits_London&oldid=98893
>
> has had some 60,000 hits from Europe (excluding
> France) alone.

Looking at the webalizer stats, which are for the entire globe, there
are about 60,000 hits in total, which would make the Europe figure quite
a lot smaller.

>(Thanks to Kate for the stats.) As most
> of our traffic comes from North America, it's
> reasonable to assume that we had well in excess of
> 100,000 reads that day. Small in comparison to any
> major news service, but it proves we're on the map.
>

----
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] London 7/7, and Wikinews


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The ongoing trolling

body:
Norath Norath wrote:
> I have been permanently blocked by David Gerard [...]

Congratulations for demonstrating exactly what Jimbo was saying. Loads
of accusations in your posting, but not a single link to the block log,
a diff, or anything else that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Timwi


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews and London

body:
Dan Grey a ?crit:
> --- Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I promote Wikinews every chance I get, and I am
>>lately interviewed as
>>frequently about Wikinews as I am about Wikipedia.
>>
>>--Jimbo
>
>
>
> Thank you :-)
>
>
> Dan

No thank you for me :-( Sigh.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews and London


subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews and wikimania

body:
Hi

Incidently, which wikinews journalists will cover wikimania ?

(INDEPENDANT journalists, not organisers :-))

ant


subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews and wikimania


body:
edward molasses wrote:

>Hello everyone,
>
>I had a question about how links to other languages are structured.
>
>For example, when i am looking at an english word, and click on an entry in
>the left-hand column to see the definition in another language, sometimes
>there is an intermediate page on the other language's site that uses the
>english translation of the word as the page name and it lists a link to the
>translated word. I don't understand why sometimes this page organization is
>used?
>
>An example is the intermediate page for the italian translation of the word
>house which can be found here: http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/house
>
>Any help would be much appreciated, thank you,
>Andrew.
>
>
Hoi,
When a word like house is created in the Italian wiktionary, it is a
foreign word. Much of the information is with the Italian word, casa is
this case. The way the interwiki links for wiktionary work is that they
refer to words that are exactly spelled the same way. You may find
different content for a word that is spelled the same way. The reason
for this is that it is a lot of work when you have to add all the
content on all words. So the information is there, it is just one click
further away.

There have been two big changes in the interwiki world. The first is
that the English language wiktionary now has its articles spelled in
their default format; not more first character capitalisation. Many of
the interwiki links have been changed that way to reflect this. The only
problem left is that the interwiki software does not handle redirects
well. When it refers to a redirect it will expect that this redirect is
correct. In fact if the word is not in the same case, it propably is not.

The other big change has been in the interwiki.py program. It now allows
you to run the bot and it will check a large number of wiktionaries that
you can be simultaneously logged on. This means that when a new link is
found for a word, it will be added to all words that the software is
aware of.  As you may understand, changes like this take their time to
mature, however it is a mark of the maturity of the software that so
many cool things are developped to such a degree of perfection.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Kate

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Mediawiki on oracle...

body:
Mark Rosen (marrosen) wrote in
gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> Volker, any progress on the getting MediaWiki to run on Oracle?

there's an RFE for it here:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652 but as far as i know,
no-one's working on actual support.

kate.


subject: [Foundation-l] London 7/7, and Wikinews

body:
Erik Moeller (erik_moeller at gmx.de) [050708 22:43]:

> The Korean version did a bit better, but of course I can't judge the
> quality of the content. The blogosphere did what it usually does in
> situations like this: hyperlink frantically and add uninformed opinions
> ;-). It is very much possible that the most significant grass-roots
> "competition" in providing reliable information came from Wikipedia
> itself. But Wikipedia could not, unlike Wikinews, include original
> reporting directly from people in London, and its format is very different.

Don't forget that the blogosphere is in two pieces, with roughly comparable
numbers of active blogs: Livejournal and not-Livejournal. I was glued to
Livejournal yesterday as my primary news source. (Of course, I have
somewhere upward of 700 on my friends list, which is close to the limit of
750 ...) The people I saw were doing their best to keep their info and
rumours straight. The london_070705 community was a great one for this.
(User:Arkady was on two screens from 9am to 2am distributing the best
information she could find on that community and other journals.)

We tried watching BBC News 24 for a bit, but it just annoyed us. Too much
repetition to fill space even by 11:30am. The BBC websites were fantastic
though.

- d.


subject: [Foundation-l] London 7/7, and Wikinews


references:
<42C9E707.2040409@telus.net>
	<200507081332.14598.molasses-one@shaw.ca>
	<op.stl6sgep2okkek@arcadia.hsd1.co.comcast.net>

body:
On Friday 08 July 2005 2:46 pm, Muke Tever wrote:
> The purpose of interlanguage links is to link to an article on the *same*
> topic in another language.  For the purpose of a dictionary, this means
> the same word.  Thus an article that treats the English word 'house' must
> use interwiki links for other languages with articles also treating the
> English word 'house'.
>
> Some wiktionaries have been using an inline link in the translation table
> for the kind of link you appear to be looking for, i.e., a link from
> en:house to it:casa... this generally appears next to the translation as
> a small symbol such as ^, ??, ???, or ???, depending on the wiktionary.
>
> When the Wiktionaries are better written,
> http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/house will have an actual definition of the
> word as well.
>
> 	*Muke!

Thank you for the help Muke! I'm not sure I understand completely, is it that
traditionally editors of wiktionary word pages will add the interwiki link
using the english translation of the word as the page name because they don't
know what the translated word would be, and the wiki of the other language's
site will have the intermediate page named with the english translation to
make it easier for the english wiki to link to it without knowing the
translation of the word?

Andrew.


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Policy clarification: separate Wikipedias
	for	cultures,peoples, and countries, or for languages?

body:
>I don't think that's a good idea. On the Bambara Wikipedia I only added
>French to the Wikipedia: namespace. And my Babel template is bm-1. :)
>
>When applying for Bambara Wikipedia administratorship I explicitely
>mentioned that I'll drop my administratorship as soon as there are some
>native speaking folks active as administrator. I think that should be a
>general policy for administrators who have only a very small knowledge
>of a language.
>
>
Not really necassary to drop it. Just do not use it, or barely use it.
As long as you do not abuse it :) and stop others from growing I see
nothing wrong with keeping it.

I once helped Thai wikipedia in a big vandalism attack. I got temp
adminstatus for that from Angela. After it had had happened Angela took
it away as per the rules. But the other admins were greatfull and put a
vote on for adminship, for me and another user Ahoerstemeier. We are
still admins there and keep an eye out sometimes on Thai wikipedia. No
harm done.

Walter/Waerth


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wiktionary-l] Changing username

body:
Angela wrote:
> ?var (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:?var_Arnfj?r?_Bjarmason>)
> made a tool recently that enables bureaucrats to rename users and told
> me yesterday that Tim Starling has just deployed it at the servers.
>
> Therefore, any bureaucrat can change the username of users on their
> wiki using [[Special:Renameuser]].
>
> For more details, please see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Changing_username
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Changing_username
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_permissions#Requests_for_name_changes
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stewards#Instructions_for_changing_usernames
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Instructions_for_changing_usernames
>
> Please translate this into your language and let the people on your
> project know about this new process. People on wikis without
> bureaucrats can make their request at [[meta:Requests for
> permissions]] instead.

This tool has not been reviewed for security, and in fact a cursory
glance does reveal some potential problems. (Additionally we have
general concerns about database impact of renaming users with long edit
histories.)

It should not have been turned on at this stage and I'm disabling it for
now, so an announcement of availability is probably premature. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20050709/9f798702/attachment.pgp


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Changing username

body:
Angela wrote:
> ?var (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:?var_Arnfj?r?_Bjarmason>)
> made a tool recently that enables bureaucrats to rename users and told
> me yesterday that Tim Starling has just deployed it at the servers.
>
> Therefore, any bureaucrat can change the username of users on their
> wiki using [[Special:Renameuser]].
>
> For more details, please see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Changing_username
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Changing_username
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_permissions#Requests_for_name_changes
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stewards#Instructions_for_changing_usernames
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Instructions_for_changing_usernames
>
> Please translate this into your language and let the people on your
> project know about this new process. People on wikis without
> bureaucrats can make their request at [[meta:Requests for
> permissions]] instead.

This tool has not been reviewed for security, and in fact a cursory
glance does reveal some potential problems. (Additionally we have
general concerns about database impact of renaming users with long edit
histories.)

It should not have been turned on at this stage and I'm disabling it for
now, so an announcement of availability is probably premature. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/attachments/20050709/9f798702/attachment.pgp


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The ongoing trolling

body:
Perhaps, but Jimbo was still right about the recent complaints being
largely w/o merit, and I was right when I suggested they desensitize
admins to legitimate complaints.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 7/9/05, Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/9/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> > Norath Norath wrote:
> > > I have been permanently blocked by David Gerard [...]
> >
> > Congratulations for demonstrating exactly what Jimbo was saying. Loads
> > of accusations in your posting, but not a single link to the block log,
> > a diff, or anything else that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
>
> Hang on. That's not right. I'll admit that he (I'm assuming Norrath is
> a he) didn't post any links, but he is clearly talking about actual
> events, as we may discover with a little research. Phil S agrees that
> he blocked two editors: "[[User:Lleague of Responsible Trolls]], who's
> userpage was a dead ringer for 162, and [[User:Involved in trolling]],
> which I consider equally obvious". If we look up the list of blocked
> IP addresses at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist we
> find two entries:
> "03:39, 6 July 2005, Snowspinner blocked Lleague Of Responsible Trolls
> (expires indefinite) (contribs) (Entmoots Sockpuppet)
> 03:38, 6 July 2005, Snowspinner blocked Involved in trolling (expires
> indefinite) (contribs) (Sockpuppet account intended for trolling) "
>
> And David Gerard did indeed ban Norath: "04:01, 7 July 2005, David
> Gerard blocked Norrath (expires indefinite) (contribs) (admitted
> sockpuppet and role account)" -
>
> So, whatever the merits of his case, Norath is talking about actual
> events, and what he wants is an explanation. I'm not able to comment
> on whether the actions taken by Snowspinner and Gerard were valid, but
> surely asking for an explanation is a legitimate action on this list?
>
> And surely an admin should be able to explain his actions when asked politely?
>
> --
> Peter in Canberra
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The ongoing trolling

body:
For an example of a legitimate case for complaint, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Personal_Abuse

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arthur_Wellesley%2C_8th_Duke_of_Wellington#Back_to_basics

(same case)

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 7/9/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps, but Jimbo was still right about the recent complaints being
> largely w/o merit, and I was right when I suggested they desensitize
> admins to legitimate complaints.
>
> Jack (Sam Spade)
>
> On 7/9/05, Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 7/9/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> > > Norath Norath wrote:
> > > > I have been permanently blocked by David Gerard [...]
> > >
> > > Congratulations for demonstrating exactly what Jimbo was saying. Loads
> > > of accusations in your posting, but not a single link to the block log,
> > > a diff, or anything else that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
> >
> > Hang on. That's not right. I'll admit that he (I'm assuming Norrath is
> > a he) didn't post any links, but he is clearly talking about actual
> > events, as we may discover with a little research. Phil S agrees that
> > he blocked two editors: "[[User:Lleague of Responsible Trolls]], who's
> > userpage was a dead ringer for 162, and [[User:Involved in trolling]],
> > which I consider equally obvious". If we look up the list of blocked
> > IP addresses at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist we
> > find two entries:
> > "03:39, 6 July 2005, Snowspinner blocked Lleague Of Responsible Trolls
> > (expires indefinite) (contribs) (Entmoots Sockpuppet)
> > 03:38, 6 July 2005, Snowspinner blocked Involved in trolling (expires
> > indefinite) (contribs) (Sockpuppet account intended for trolling) "
> >
> > And David Gerard did indeed ban Norath: "04:01, 7 July 2005, David
> > Gerard blocked Norrath (expires indefinite) (contribs) (admitted
> > sockpuppet and role account)" -
> >
> > So, whatever the merits of his case, Norath is talking about actual
> > events, and what he wants is an explanation. I'm not able to comment
> > on whether the actions taken by Snowspinner and Gerard were valid, but
> > surely asking for an explanation is a legitimate action on this list?
> >
> > And surely an admin should be able to explain his actions when asked politely?
> >
> > --
> > Peter in Canberra
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>


from_name: Ros’ Haruo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Renaming users

body:
 As a user with different names on different language Wikipedias, I only
hope if somebody changes my name they let me know... (I was *Haruo* first,
at eo: and then en:, and I still use that on most of them, but in Swahili
I'm *Lilendi* (because that's what I call myself in Swahili) and in ja: I'm
*Rosharuo* (because it said Haruo was already taken) and in a couple of
languages I'm *Haluo* (in haw: H?luo) and in non-NW American Indigenous
Wikipedias I tend to be *dzidzelalic* (Lushootseed for "Seattle (place)", as
opposed to *si?a?* = "Seattle (tribal leader)"). I haven't signed onto the
he: Wikipedia yet, but if I do I'll probably want to be *Afar.* Oh well, I
keep 'em all straight in some dark recess of my brain..*.*
 Haruo

> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:45:17 +0200
> From: Angela <beesley at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Changing username
>
> ?var (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:?var_Arnfj?r?_Bjarmason>)
> made a tool recently that enables bureaucrats to rename users and told
> me yesterday that Tim Starling has just deployed it at the servers.
>
> Therefore, any bureaucrat can change the username of users on their
> wiki using [[Special:Renameuser]].
> ?


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews and London

body:
In the dutch-Belgian newspaper "De Standaard" in an article about the
role of the internet for the news about this event this about Wikipedia;

nl:
Even opmerkelijk als de snelle blogs, is de snelle update van Wikipedia,
de on-line encyclopedie. De eerste post stond er al om 9u55, amper zes
minuten na de berichten over de eerste explosies. Rond de middag hadden
de 7/7 aanslagen er al een eigen bladzijde met een indrukwekkende
hoeveelheid informatie. Van de telefoonnummers van alle betrokken
hulpdiensten en status van het openbaar vervoer tot gelinkte overzichten
van de reacties van wereldleiders.

en:
Just as notably as the fast blogs, is the fast update of Wikipedia, the
on-line encyclopedia.  The first post stood about it already at 9u55
(utc+2), scarcely six minutes after the first messages over the
explosions.  Around noon, the 7/7 attacks had already there own page
with an impressive quantity of information.  The phone numbers of all
concerned emergency services and status of the public transportation and
also the reactions of world leaders.

This in the online and paper version whit the url to the article of the
London bomming on Wikipedia EN.

--
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews and London


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

body:
Michael wrote:

> "Fair use" is laziness too in many cases. But my point was that if
> you're going to the trouble of asking for permission, which is otherwise
> commendable, it is lazy and counterproductive not to take the very
> simple step of asking for permission *under a free license*.

Indeed. In each case we should ask for as wide a
permission as possible. I think everyone agrees
on that.

> Encouraging people to go out and
> get more restrictive content, such as images with Wikipedia-only
> permission, undermines the effort to make Wikipedia more free.

I agree. We should not encourage people to obtain
such images. They should only be used as a last resort.

> If somebody asks for permission for an image under a free license and gets
> turned down, I'd be happy to consider whether it might be appropriate to
> use that image based on a more limited permission, plus fair use.

I don't see how fair-use is even relevant if we
already have a permission to use a given image.
If it is meant as a hint for the downstream
users then I don't think it is a very helpful one.
They will have to evaluate each non-free image
for themselves anyhow.

But, more importantly, you agree with me that it
is useful for us to have a limited permission to
use a given image when a wider permission can not
be obtained.

Doesn't it, then, strike you as counter-productive
that the image upload screen currently says this?

******************************************************
* Please do not upload files under a "non-commercial *
* use only" or "copyrighted, used by permission"     *
* licence. Such files will be deleted                *
******************************************************

- - -

This is not meant as an attack on anyone but I'm getting
tired of some of the arguments used in this discussion.
There seems to be a pervasive idea of "lazy" and stupid
Wikipedians who have to be stopped from hurting the project
with uncompromising policies that don't really make sense.
This is very much against the spirit of Wikipedia, which
is to trust the users and assume good faith.

We *can* have a nuanced policy to use used-with-permission
images only rarely and when they are the only option. Being
outright banned from doing so makes me feel like I'm being
treated like a child.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wikinews-l] Changing username

body:
...unless you're a stalker, in which case do give up. If a dev won't
add your feature, it's not proper netiquette to follow them around
everywhere, spy on them, and then possibly eventually attack them.

Mark

On 09/07/05, SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> That was a nice, fast turnaround.  ?var, you rock...
>
> For people who think that it's impossible to interact with devs, here
> is a fine counterexample (which I like to think is the norm).  My
> experience : someone asked me to implement a name change two weeks
> ago.  The pages for this on meta and en had gone untouched by admins
> since last October; a big red "we're not doing this any more, pleaes
> go home" banner was up on those pages (http://tinyurl.com/9g5th).
> Despite this, there were a handful of new requests every month on en:
> (http://tinyurl.com/ajlga), and likewise on meta
> (http://tinyurl.com/e4cxe).
>
> Brian Drake had submitted a feature request in bugzilla in April, to
> let every user change his own username, and gotten initially shot down
>  (http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1807)...  I mentioned
> the problem again in #wikimedia-tech on IRC, and suggested this could
> be made a bureaucrat-only feature to avoid the abuse concerns that
> showed up in the discussion of the first bug.  ?var immediately said
> he was interested... he posted his own bugzilla entry the next day
> (http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2523), and it took just
> two weeks to implement the patch.
>
> So, if you have a great idea that you want implemented, don't give up.
>
> --SJ
>
>
> On 7/9/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For more details, please see
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Changing_username
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Changing_username
>
> Excellent.  Clear instructions are priceless.
>
> --
> +sj
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Foundation-l] Personal info

body:
Congratulations Anthere,

I hope you will take it slow and think about the new life growing inside
of you first! Before you think of us wikipedians.

Waerth


subject: [Foundation-l] Personal info


from_name: SJ

body:
That was a nice, fast turnaround.  ?var, you rock...

For people who think that it's impossible to interact with devs, here
is a fine counterexample (which I like to think is the norm).  My
experience : someone asked me to implement a name change two weeks
ago.  The pages for this on meta and en had gone untouched by admins
since last October; a big red "we're not doing this any more, pleaes
go home" banner was up on those pages (http://tinyurl.com/9g5th).
Despite this, there were a handful of new requests every month on en:
(http://tinyurl.com/ajlga), and likewise on meta
(http://tinyurl.com/e4cxe).

Brian Drake had submitted a feature request in bugzilla in April, to
let every user change his own username, and gotten initially shot down
 (http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1807)...  I mentioned
the problem again in #wikimedia-tech on IRC, and suggested this could
be made a bureaucrat-only feature to avoid the abuse concerns that
showed up in the discussion of the first bug.  ?var immediately said
he was interested... he posted his own bugzilla entry the next day
(http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2523), and it took just
two weeks to implement the patch.

So, if you have a great idea that you want implemented, don't give up.

--SJ

On 7/9/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:

> For more details, please see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Changing_username
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Changing_username

Excellent.  Clear instructions are priceless.

--
+sj


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [WikiFR-l] Personal info

body:
On 7/8/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I had today a first ultrasound exam and it definitly
> showed I hosted something alive (heartbeat being
> proof), which has made it through the embronic stage
> to be now called a foetus and seems to be fine. So,
> though still a bit worried as I lost the last one just
> at this stage, I am optimistic tonight.

Exciting!  And leads to other excitement.  I am watching early birds
out my window as I read this, hunting for their chicks...

> And yes, of course, I'll come to Wikimania :-) I just
> won't be able to share a beer.

(-:  sj  :-)


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] The ongoing trolling

body:
No fair, my experience with RK running wild here partly motivated me
to create Wikinfo, although you are correct that a point of view
advocating totalitarianism is not welcome. Everything has its natural
limits.

In relationship to Wikipedia, aggressive POV editing is a major
problem and those who engage in it will eventually be dragged before
arbitration. We are working on solutions. One solution I am
suggesting is MAD. Mutual Assured Destruction. For example, if both I
and 172 are sysops, if we see that the other is editing [[Stalin]] in
an aggressive point of view way, me repeatedly adding detailed
information about the millions he killed for no good reason and 172
whitewashing his hero, we would both potentially be subject to bans
from editing that article for a period of time.

This is just a trial balloon, but is being proposed as a remedy in
the Yuber case. Yuber does a lot of good editing in the Islamic and
Arab area, but seems to not do well on controversial articles like
[[Jizya]]. The proposed remedy is that for one year he would be on
probation with respect to editing in the Islamist and Israeli-
Palestinian conflict area and could be banned for a year from any
article that he continues to edit in an aggressive POV manner by any
administrator (could be by any other editor). At the end of the year
the ban would be raised; meanwhile, he could continue to use the talk
page and edit other articles.

As to Trey Stone, it is not that he is a fanatic that is getting him
in trouble; it is thinking he can parrot the official line without
bothering to reference it. So he says, "Oh no, the CIA had nothing to
do with repression in Guatemala," but can't be bothered to even look
up a statement by some State Department spokesman to that effect, if
such could be found, which I doubt.

I do regret that Jimbo was not more sensitive to your feelings. I
don't know why Adam Carr can do no wrong in his eyes. I don't find
him that good an editor to start with.

Fred

On Jul 8, 2005, at 2:18 PM, Ruy Lopez wrote:

> you are at an RK or Trey Stone level of fanaticism, perhaps you
> should check out another right wing nutcases wiki encyclopedia -
> wikinfo.org.


subject: [WikiEN-l] The ongoing trolling

body:
Ruy Lopez is not a troll.

Fred

On Jul 9, 2005, at 7:41 AM, Mark Ryan wrote:

> On 7/9/05, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>
>> I do regret that Jimbo was not more sensitive to your feelings. I
>> don't know why Adam Carr can do no wrong in his eyes. I don't find
>> him that good an editor to start with.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>
> I feel that's uncalled for. The correct response was to ignore the
> troll, not counter his insult with an insult levelled against another
> Wikipedia contributor.
>
> ~Mark
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: David Carson

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Pseudoscience" as POV

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>Along comes Dr. William Connolley and his mates. They have
>simultaneously begun a WikiProject to delete articles which (in their
>view) promote pseudoscience, and, wait for it...
>
>...actually nominated Connolley for adminship!
>
>I marked up the nomination with strikeout text at four points and
>appended my signed corrections, and have been 3RR'ed into oblivion and
>threatened with my first-ever user block. What is this, the borking of
>Ed Poor?
>
>

Ed, do you honestly believe that it is acceptable, even for a fraction
of a second, for someone to edit a Request For Adminship, and strike out
text like "works well with other editors" and "would make an excellent
admin" from the nominator's introduction??

If you oppose the nomination, you enter your vote in the Oppose section.

If you want to comment on the nomination, you make a comment in the
Comments section.

I would have reverted your strikeouts in a heartbeat myself, and so
would 99% of editors, I'll wager. Even if you DID write the policy on
"changing other's comments". Actually, ESPECIALLY if you wrote that
policy - I would put it to you that you should therefore be more likely
to abide by it than most.

For the mystified:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/William_M._Connolley&diff=18398366&oldid=18398330

Cheers!
David...


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The ongoing trolling

body:
On 7/9/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Norath Norath wrote:
> > I have been permanently blocked by David Gerard [...]
>
> Congratulations for demonstrating exactly what Jimbo was saying. Loads
> of accusations in your posting, but not a single link to the block log,
> a diff, or anything else that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Hang on. That's not right. I'll admit that he (I'm assuming Norrath is
a he) didn't post any links, but he is clearly talking about actual
events, as we may discover with a little research. Phil S agrees that
he blocked two editors: "[[User:Lleague of Responsible Trolls]], who's
userpage was a dead ringer for 162, and [[User:Involved in trolling]],
which I consider equally obvious". If we look up the list of blocked
IP addresses at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist we
find two entries:
"03:39, 6 July 2005, Snowspinner blocked Lleague Of Responsible Trolls
(expires indefinite) (contribs) (Entmoots Sockpuppet)
03:38, 6 July 2005, Snowspinner blocked Involved in trolling (expires
indefinite) (contribs) (Sockpuppet account intended for trolling) "

And David Gerard did indeed ban Norath: "04:01, 7 July 2005, David
Gerard blocked Norrath (expires indefinite) (contribs) (admitted
sockpuppet and role account)" -

So, whatever the merits of his case, Norath is talking about actual
events, and what he wants is an explanation. I'm not able to comment
on whether the actions taken by Snowspinner and Gerard were valid, but
surely asking for an explanation is a legitimate action on this list?

And surely an admin should be able to explain his actions when asked politely?

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: andyl2004 at sympatico.ca

subject: [WikiEN-l] Trey Stone

body:
I see that Trey Stone is still active. As I recall, he was tempbanned a few months ago and persisted in circumventing the ban. I would have thought this would have resulted in a longer, if not indefinite ban, being implemented against him. Can anyone bring me up to speed on his case?

Thanks,

AndyL


from_name: steve krasner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Internet Search on Shabbat

body:
I recently compiled the above Internet Search for the
Rosenbaum Youth Library in New Haven, CT.  I hope you
find them informative and useful.

Shabbat:  Websites
June 14, 2005
Compiled for the Rosenbaum Youth Library, New Haven,
         CT by Steve Krasner, 68 Ridgefield Dr.
Middletown, CT                               06457
1-860-632-8923 or krasner2745 at yahoo.com

Answers.com ? Shabbat
http://www.answers.com/topic/shabbat

AskMoses.com - Shabbat
http://www.askmoses.com/qa_list.html?h=201

Candle Lighting for Shabbat and Holidays
http://www.chabad.org/calendar/location.asp?AID=6226

Chabbad Classics: Spirit of Shabbat  - Book
http://www.jewishlearninggroup.com/product.php?id=339

Congregation Ohev Shalom:
Torah and Haftarah Readings, February 2006
http://www.njop.org/html/shabbat_across_usa_can.htm

Daily Study/Chabad
http://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/

How to Observe Shabbat
http://www.ehow.com/how_12533_observe-shabbat.html

How to Prepare for Shabbat
http://www.ehow.com/how_13131_prepare-shabbat.html

How to Start Observing Shabbat
http://www.ehow.com/how_12551_start-observing-shabbat.html

An Introduction to Shabbat
http://www.jewishla.org/html/shabbat_holiday.htm

Kiddush and Shabbat Zemirot and Prayers by 613.0rg
http://www.613.org/shabbat.html

Laws of Shabbat
	Virtual Beit Midrash:  Introduction to Shabbat

http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/shab01.htm
	Virtual Beit Midrash:  Preparing for Shabbat
..         http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/shab02.htm
	Virtual Beit Midrash:   The Onset of Shabbat
	http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/shab03.htm

L?Chaim
http://www.lchaimweekly.org/lchaim/5765/

Learning and Fun with Shabbat and Rosh Holdesh
http://www.bus.ualberta.ca/yreshef/shabbat/shabbatmenu.html

Lubavitch World Organization: Shabbaton with Chabod
National Pledge Greater Involvement - Tuesday,
Feburary 22, 2005
http://lubavitch.com/Article.asp?Article=572&Section=20

Machers Jewish Holidays and Observances: Shabbat
http://www.machers.com/Default.aspx?tabid=126

Meditate on the Divine Mystery of Shabbat
http://www.inner.org/meditate/shabbat/shabbat.htm

National Jewish Outreach Program: Shabbat
http://www.njop.org/html/shabbat.html
Parashat Mishpatim
http://www.hebcal.com/sedrot/mishpatim.html

Sabbath Day (Shabbat)
http://judaism.about.com/od/sabbathdayshabb2/

Sabbath Poem
http://www.jewishmag.com/90mag/shabbatpoem/shabbatpoem.htm

Shabbat Across America/Canada, March, 3, 2006
http://www.njop.org/html/shabbat_across_usa_can.htm

Shabbat: An Island in Time
http://www.chabad.org/generic.asp?AID=253215

Shabbat and Vegitarianism
http://www.jewishveg.com/schwartz/hlydysh.html

Shabbat at Home
http://www.ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=68445

Shabbat Books
http://www.karben.com/kar-ben/shabbat.html

Shabbat Customs and Traditions
http://www.bus.ualberta.ca/yreshef/shabbat/shabcustoms.html

Shabbat from Wikipedia - The Free Enclyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat

Shabbat Images:
	Issac Honic - Likrat Shabbit - Israel Music
	http://www.israel-music.com/b/44440355.jpg

	Shabbat Art Print
	http://artmuz.com/JewishArt/Eshet_Chayil.jpg

	Shabbat by William Gropper
	http://www.lgrossman.com/gropshab.jpg

	Shabbat: Children at a Meal

http://www.torahaura.com/duplicate1/Shabbat.jpg

Shabbat:  Dinner Symbol
	http://www.members.aol.com/lsdsweb/shabbat.jpg

	Shabbat from Wikipedia.org - The Free Encyclopedia
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat

	Shabbat Just Do It
            http://www.nextwave.hu/doit.jpg

	Shabbat Primer: Getting Ready for Shabbat (Book)

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/the-shabbat-primer/01.htm

	Shabbat Rug

http://www.judaica.org.il/assets/product_images/ema00001i.jpg

	Symbols of Shabbat

http://www.torahaura.com/Symbols_Shabbat.jpg

	Shabbat Tent

http://www.macholmiami.com/04P1_02%20The20Shabbat%.20Tent.JPG

            Shabbat Wine..

http://www.koshergiftbaskets.com/images/shabboswine.jpg

	Structure of the Shabbat Service
.
http://www.njop.org/graphic_outlines/shabbat.jpg

Shabbat Index
http://www.shabat.co.il/

Shabbat Explanation and Meaning
http://www.totallyjewish.com/tradition/shabbat/

Shabbat - Judaism: Archives
http://judaism.aout.com/b/a/2005_05_27.htm

Shabbat Primer: Getting Reading for Shabbat
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/the-shabbat-primer/

Shabbat Sholom
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/torat/shabbat.php

Shabbat Shuva
http://www.bus.ualberta.ca/yreshef/shabbat/shimages/shuva.gif

Shabbat Songs and Music
http://www.israel-music.com/browse/music/jewish/shabbat/

Shabbat Times & Daily Zmanium - 2005-2006
http://www.sederolam.co.il/ShabbatZmanim/Times.asp

Shabbat Times|Chabad.AM
http://www.kingmessiah.com/shabbat/

Shabbat Traditions
http://www.totallyjewish.com/tradition/shabbat/

Shabbaton:  The Ultimate Shabbat Site
http://www.shabat.co.il/

SurfWax: News and Articles on Shabbat
http://news.surfwax.com/holidays/files/Shabbat.html

Welcome to the YashaNet Shabbat Center
http://www.jewishla.org/html/shabbat_holiday.htm

Yashotetu
http://www.houseofsteed.com/shofar/articles/article1.htm

Your Purim Guide - Purim 5766 - Monday through
Wednesday 13-15 Adar 5766 March 13-15
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/cgi-bin/calendar?holiday=purim

Shavuot:  Selected Websites
			         July 8,2005
                               Compiled for the
Rosenbaum Youth Library,
         New Haven,CT by Steve Krasner, 68 Ridgefield
Dr.,Middletown,CT 06457 1-860-632-8923 or
  krasner2745 at yahoo.com

Chabod of Cambridge England -  Shavuot 2005
http://www.j-net.com.au/chabad_on_campus/index.html

Chabod on Campus, Melbourne, Australia - The Heart of
Jewish Student Life - Is Giving Gush Katil
Legally-Morally-Ethically-Halochically Correct?
http://www.j-net.com.au/chabad_on_campus/index.html

Dr. John Orohol?s Psych Central: Shavuot
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Shavuot

The Forgotten Holiday
http://www.jewishjournal.com/archive/06.02.00/5760.html

Hanefesh: National Assembly of Hebrew Students -
Jewish Laws and Customs for the Holiday of Shavuot
http://www.hanefesh.com/edu/Holidays/Shavuot.htm

Hillel The Jewish Student Organization: Shavuot
http://bit.csc.lsu.edu/~kraft/hillel/hillel2.html#Shavout

Jewish Holidays: Shavuot
http://www.hebcal.com/holidays/shavuot.html

Jewish Studies at University of Virginia: Evloving
Jewish Traditions - Shavuot
http://www.virginia.edu/jewishstudies/images/Shavuot.htm

Judaism 101: Shavu?ot
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayc.htm

Kosher Recipes for Shavuot
http://www.kosherdelight.com/ShavuotRecipes.shtml

?Living with Moshiach? Erev Shavuot, 5764
http://www.torah4blind.org/lwm-5764/382.htm

MavenSearch - Jewish Web Directory
and Search Engine - Shavuot
http://www.mavensearch.com/subjects.asp?S=126

MyJewishLearning.com - Holidays: Shavuot
http://hillel.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Shavuot.htm

Ohr Somayach - Holiday/Shavuot
http://ohr.edu/yhiy.php/holidays/shavuot/

The OU.ORG Shavuot Celebration
http://www.ou.org/chagim/shavuot/default.htm

Shaleeack, Issue 29: Emor ?say? Vayikra (Leviticus)
21:1 - 24:23)
5 lyya 5765 - may 14, 2005
http://www.about-torah.org/Teachings/Portions/Emor.html

Shavuot
http://www.kabbalaonline.org/holydays/shavuoth/

Shavuot and the Ten Commandments
http://www.holidays.net/shavuot/ten.htm

Shavuot at WorldVillage Encyclopedia - Shavuot
http://encyclopedia.worldvillage.com/s/b/Shavuot
-
Shavuot Australia
http://www.jewishaustralia.com/shavuotsites.htm

Shavuot Begins June 12, 2005
http://www.amit.org.il/learning/english/shavuot/

Shavuot - Best on the Web
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/festivls/shavuot/best.html

Shavuot Biography
http://shavuot.biography.ms/

Shavuot Customs Explained - United Kingdom
http://www.rigal.freeserve.co.uk/jewish/shavuot/shavuot.htm

Shavuot Definition and much more from Answers.com
http://www.answers.com/topic/shavuot

Shavuot - Department of Jewish Zionist Education
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/ivrit/shavut/

Shavuot | Chabad,org .>Jewish Holidays
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/shavuot/default.asp

Shavuot Content Archive
http://www.ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=78445

Shavuot in Australia
http://www.jewishaustralia.com/shavuot.htm

Shavuot on Encyclopedia.com
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/Shavuot.asp

Shavuot on the Net
http://www.holidays.net/shavuot/

Shavuot Laws and Customs
http://www.everythingjewish.com/Shavuot/Laws.htm

Shavuot Recipes
http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/rfcj/category.cgi?category=SHAVUOT

Shavuot Resource Page for Teachers
http://www.teacherplanet.com/resource/shavout.php

Shavuot Sites - The Pedagogic Center,
Dept. For Jewish Zionist Education, Australia
http://www.jewishaustralia.com/shavuotsites.htm

Story of Shavuot
http://www.ou.org/chagim/shavuot/story.htm

Technological Resources for Jewish Education: Shavuot
http://www.ssdsofessexandunion.org/tech/shavuot.htm

The Three Righteous Sould of Shavuot
http://www.inner.org/times/sivan/sivan64.htm

Virtual Chabod | Chabod.org
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=111377

Yehud.com Listen Tapes About Shavuot
http://www.yehud.com/Holidays/Shavuot/

Yeshivat Har Efzion - The Virtual Beat Midrosh -
Shavuot Journal 5765
http://www.vbm-torah.org/shavuot.htm

Shavuot:  Selected Websites
			         July 8,2005
                               Compiled for the
Rosenbaum Youth Library,
         New Haven,CT by Steve Krasner, 68 Ridgefield
Dr.,Middletown,CT 06457 1-860-632-8923 or
  krasner2745 at yahoo.com

Chabod of Cambridge England -  Shavuot 2005
http://www.j-net.com.au/chabad_on_campus/index.html

Chabod on Campus, Melbourne, Australia - The Heart of
Jewish Student Life - Is Giving Gush Katil
Legally-Morally-Ethically-Halochically Correct?
http://www.j-net.com.au/chabad_on_campus/index.html

Dr. John Orohol?s Psych Central: Shavuot
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Shavuot

The Forgotten Holiday
http://www.jewishjournal.com/archive/06.02.00/5760.html

Hanefesh: National Assembly of Hebrew Students -
Jewish Laws and Customs for the Holiday of Shavuot
http://www.hanefesh.com/edu/Holidays/Shavuot.htm

Hillel The Jewish Student Organization: Shavuot
http://bit.csc.lsu.edu/~kraft/hillel/hillel2.html#Shavout

Jewish Holidays: Shavuot
http://www.hebcal.com/holidays/shavuot.html

Jewish Studies at University of Virginia: Evloving
Jewish Traditions - Shavuot
http://www.virginia.edu/jewishstudies/images/Shavuot.htm

Judaism 101: Shavu?ot
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayc.htm

Kosher Recipes for Shavuot
http://www.kosherdelight.com/ShavuotRecipes.shtml

?Living with Moshiach? Erev Shavuot, 5764
http://www.torah4blind.org/lwm-5764/382.htm

MavenSearch - Jewish Web Directory
and Search Engine - Shavuot
http://www.mavensearch.com/subjects.asp?S=126

MyJewishLearning.com - Holidays: Shavuot
http://hillel.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Shavuot.htm

Ohr Somayach - Holiday/Shavuot
http://

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Proposed alternate 3RR policy

body:
"I would have responded earlier, but it's a real pain in the ass to be NOT
GETTING THE MAILING LIST MESSAGES thanks to a power-mad dictator who
"tweaks" a setting such that an account looks like it's "subscribed" but
gets no emails back."
Are you sure you didn't accidentally set an option for daily digests
or something when you signed up? No one has anything to gain by you
not receiving messages, you can still read the archive.

--Mgm

On 7/8/05, A. Nony Mouse <tempforcomments5 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >I hereby propose an alternate policy: Page-based 3RR. If the same
> >phrase is
> > > >reverted from a page three times in 24 hours, then that PAGE shall be
> > > >locked for a week and all editors involved in the reverts shall receive
> >a
> > > >12-hour block to cool off.
> > >
> > > What a bad idea; it allows any editor to hold pages hostage essentially
> > > indefinitely, even if opposed by dozens of other editors.
> > >
> > > Jay.
> >
> >Perhaps you could add your thoughts for improvement instead of solely
> >criticism?
> >
> >If we kept the "standard" 3RR in addition to a new page based revert
> >rule, one editor certainly could not hold pages hostage.  I didn't see
> >anything in the previous proposal that suggested throwing away the old
> >(but actually pretty young) 3RR rule.
> >
> >--
> >Michael Turley
> >User:Unfocused
>
> Thank you Michael.
>
> I would have responded earlier, but it's a real pain in the ass to be NOT
> GETTING THE MAILING LIST MESSAGES thanks to a power-mad dictator who
> "tweaks" a setting such that an account looks like it's "subscribed" but
> gets no emails back.
>
> If this message does not reach the list soon, could you please forward it?
>
> No, I do NOT suggest throwing out the old 3RR, though its modification is
> necessary. I REALLY hope that per-page blocking passes and that 3RR can be
> modified to be a per-page block rather than a whole-Wikipedia block; too
> many times recently we've seen instances where someone makes a deliberately
> controversial edit, KNOWING that another editor who frequents the page will
> revert it, and then deliberately edit-wars from that point solely to goad
> their opponent into a 3RR violation and get them blocked from the whole of
> Wikipedia.
>
> MY suggestion was intended to deal with situations where there is a
> large-scale edit war with revert warriors calling "reinforcements" - no
> *single* editor breaking 3RR, but an obvious revert/edit war occurring with
> multiple editors chiming in, each contributing their three reverts and then
> letting the next person take over the reverting.
>
> Perhaps a rephrasing is in order:
>
> Page-based 3RR. If the same phrase is reverted from a page more than three
> times in 24 hours and three or more editors are involved in the dispute,
> then that PAGE shall be locked for a week and all editors involved in the
> reverts shall receive a 12-hour block to cool off. This policy shall not
> apply to the reversion of simple vandalism.
>
> The idea is as follows:
> (1) PREVENT Revert-warring by force of numbers. "We have more guys than you
> so we decide what the page says" cannot be allowed to be policy, but
> functionally it is right now the way 3RR stands.
>
> (2) ENCOURAGE good-faith editing and DISCOURAGE placing deliberately
> controversial edits for the purpose of provoking 3RR violations. It's
> obvious enough when such conduct is occurring, but edit warriors on sex- and
> religion-based articles have taken edit-warring (while avoiding 3RR
> violations) to a fine art.
>
> This policy would make edit-warriors who have become skilled at provoking
> OTHERS into 3RR violations think twice before doing so, because (as is
> SUPPOSED to happen in the current 3RR listings regarding users who try to
> game the system, but never does) there would be legitimate consequences for
> BOTH sides of the problem.
>
> (3) Timing: Someone mentioned (I forget who) that they consider a "base time
> frame" for a block or lock to be a bad thing. I'll mention that we have
> plenty already in place: 3RR is a 24-hour block, Vandalism is a 12-hour
> block, etc. As Admins always have the option to shorten this lock *should
> the situation be resolved on talk page sooner*, I don't see this as a
> downside - quite the opposite, it encourages the users to work their
> differences out.
>
> If one side is deliberately operating in bad faith and just trying to keep
> the article locked, then that's when you go to RFC or Arbitration on the
> matter. While I disagree with most of ArbCom's behavior recently, this is
> one instance where I think even the current ArbCom members would be
> hard-pressed to make the wrong decision.
>
> And again, IF such a situation occurs, I would hope that the remedy would be
> a per-page block rather than a wholesale Wikipedia block once we get
> per-page blocking passed.
>
> A. Nony Mouse
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Start dating right now with FREE Match.com membership! http://match.msn.ie
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Kelly Martin

subject: [WikiEN-l] The ongoing trolling

body:
On 7/8/05, Ruy Lopez <ruy.lopez at mail.com> wrote:
> Or perhaps I'll just come out and say it: those who are politically pro-labor, anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist, what is sometimes called the left, are, I wouldn't even say marginalized on Wikipedia, but attacked.  Those who are anti-labor, pro-capitalist and pro-imperialist, or what is sometimes called the right, are given adminship, made bureaucrats and whatnot.

Whoops.  You just flew off the deep end.  Please let us know when you
return to reality.

I have no idea what Jimbo's politics are.  I do know what mine are,
and if what you said above were true, I certainly would not be an
administrator.  I guess Raul654 forgot to give me the politics test
before promoting me.

Kelly