from_name: Patrick Hall

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Looking for untranslated articles

body:
Hi,

Is there any way to get a list of articles which have no corresponding
article across languages?

For instance, there is no English version of:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arapiraca

To pick an exemplo aleat?rio.

I'd like to get a big list of those and look for articles that might
be interesting to translate.

Regards,

Patrick Hall


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Marco Krohn

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Note: Obscene language on Tsunami Article]

body:
On Friday 07 January 2005 19:20, Anthere wrote:
> Another solution would be to temporarily put the article in a template
> and protect the page itself.
> Most regular editors know how to edit a template, but not random vandals.

good idea to stop vandals, but a new user with good intentions will be
seriously confused and probably not understand what the "edit" button is for.

best regards,
  Marco


list: wikien-l

from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
JAY JG (jayjg at hotmail.com) [050108 01:29]:

> What if someone does 3 reverts, waits a full 24 hours, then does his "edit"
> again, and reverts to it 3 times - has he violated the 3RR or not?  Does
> the clock always start ticking *after* the first edit?

If it's 24h 5 min and they do it consistently, they're pretty obviously
gaming the system. I don't see how they could stay on a reverting quest
like this without violating other policies along the way.

- d.


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects to the en main page

body:
I'd like to start out by noting that www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects
to the english
wikipedia's main page. Instead, it's been turned into a replica of the
language template.
Deeper links ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/name_of_article ) still work, but the
main page
does not.

First of all, this is a MAJOR, MAJOR change and was totally unannounced. Nor
did anyone in the community get a chance to object before it was put into
place.
(Because I suspect there would have been a major outcry)

Second of all, I cannot fathom why the this was changed. By now, there's a
huge
inertia behind the fact that www.wikipeda.org links to the english main
page.
This is going to break *MANY* links, bookmarks, etc. We (the english
Wikipedia) are
goings to lose significant number of potential contributors because of this.

Why the hell was this changed? Why was no one told before hand, or even
afterward?

--Mark


from_name: Jeff Cook

body:
I agree, it should show the main page again. This is bad. They could move
the links to the other Wikipedias on top of the English page instead of at
the bottom of all those templates. And Wikipedia is really slow already,
having another thing to click through won't help. But I guess they want us
to use http://en.wikipedia.org. :( Change it back.
--Cookiecaper.

-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org]
On Behalf Of Mark Pellegrini
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 12:43 AM
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects to the en main
page

I'd like to start out by noting that www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects
to the english
wikipedia's main page. Instead, it's been turned into a replica of the
language template.
Deeper links ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/name_of_article ) still work, but the
main page
does not.

First of all, this is a MAJOR, MAJOR change and was totally unannounced. Nor
did anyone in the community get a chance to object before it was put into
place.
(Because I suspect there would have been a major outcry)

Second of all, I cannot fathom why the this was changed. By now, there's a
huge
inertia behind the fact that www.wikipeda.org links to the english main
page.
This is going to break *MANY* links, bookmarks, etc. We (the english
Wikipedia) are
goings to lose significant number of potential contributors because of this.

Why the hell was this changed? Why was no one told before hand, or even
afterward?

--Mark

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
JAY JG (jayjg at hotmail.com) [050108 01:59]:
>David Gerard replied:
> >JAY JG (jayjg at hotmail.com) [050108 01:29]:

> >> What if someone does 3 reverts, waits a full 24 hours, then does his
> >"edit"
> >> again, and reverts to it 3 times - has he violated the 3RR or not?  Does
> >> the clock always start ticking *after* the first edit?

> >If it's 24h 5 min and they do it consistently, they're pretty obviously
> >gaming the system. I don't see how they could stay on a reverting quest
> >like this without violating other policies along the way.

> I don't think that fully answers the question.  Yes, they're gaming the
> system, but apparently fully within the rules as being proposed by some
> editors here.  And some editors are smart enough to do these things without
> violating other rules.  Can they be blocked for doing this alone?

People have been blocked for doing their fourth revert after 24h 5 min or
so (as obvious gaming the system) without much argument from third-party
admins.

If someone did this continuously, I really can't see it not being
questioned by others. At which point they respond meaningfully or they're
not discussing persisted-with changes meaningfully. I don't really see how
someone could string out discussion for long in this manner without it
being obvious they're taking the piss.

>   And
> finally, I must point out that many admins have been viewing any 4
> identical edits in a 24 hour period as being violations of th 3RR;
> rightfully, in my view.

Well, yeah.

One point to remember about 3RR: if you get as far as *three* reverts in 24
hours, something's badly wrong. Allowing three reverts in 24 hours is one
of the things Wikipedia allows but does not condone.

- d.


from_name: Tim Starling

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: A portal page for www.wikipedia.org (was Re: Why
 www.wikipedia.org => en.wikipedia.org ?)

body:
I followed Angela's suggestion on this and set up an editable portal at
www.wikipedia.org. There are two associated pages on meta, a protected
HTML template:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_template

And an unprotected wikitext body:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_portal

I've put up a temporary page there based on the language section of the
English main page, please feel free to change it.

It seems to be slow to load at the moment, not sure why.

-- Tim Starling


body:
What does that mean? It's not harmful to Wikipedia for a copyright holder to
give notice before he goes ahead with litigation. It's beneficial. I don't
really think threats of legal action are a big deal. Usually it's just
somebody being obnoxious/cocky. Let them be delusional and tell people
they're going to sue them. There's no way that should offend someone. And if
they do go through with it, at least the end being served had some warning.
:)
--cookiecaper.

-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org]
On Behalf Of Sean Barrett
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:47 AM
To: BJ?rn Lindqvist; English Wikipedia
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Are legal threats blockable offenses?

BJ?rn Lindqvist stated for the record:

> What if someone who is the copyright holder of an image that is used
> in Wikipedia under the Fair Use clausul threatens to sue Wikipedia? Do
> you think that should be illegal? Personal threat how?

We will not try to stop anyone from seeking judicial redress, but we
will not allow them to continue to edit Wikipedia while they try to harm us.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Is that why they're so slow? --Joanna, upon
  sean at epoptic.com | learning that one of the Stepford Wives
                   | programmers used to work at AOL.

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] [Note: Obscene language on Tsunami Article]

body:
Arwel Parry (arwel at cartref.demon.co.uk) [050108 02:43]:

> I have previously defended the right of anyone to edit Wikipedia, but
> I'm afraid I'm increasingly coming to the view that anonymous users
> should be prevented from editing articles, or at least from editing
> anything linked to the main page. I would like to propose that we
> institute a policy of imposing immediate 24 hour bans, without prior
> warning, on any anon user that vandalises an "extremely popular" page as
> defined by Jimbo, or a page linked to the main page.

I and others have been shooting-to-kill (well, 12 to 24 hours) repeat
vandals who hit the Featured Article of the Day. First-time if it's simple
vandalism, they're logged in and should damn well know better. Check the
edit history of [[Orca]] when it was the article of the day.

I would however advise taking *extreme care* to be sure it's actually
vandalism - a lot of it will just be sandboxing, i.e. "I can edit this
page? Huh? Let's see ... uh. I can. Um, what do I do now?"

Showing viewers who aren't logged in the 10-minute-delay version and
logged-in users the current version would be an obvious step as well.
Casual users who've read that [[2004 Indian Ocean earthquake]] is a
fantastic article will get the 10-minute-delay version, but logged-in
editors will understand what vandalism or sandboxing is and that they
should fix it.

I suppose the edit message for anon users should say something like "As an
anonymous editor, your edits will take up to 10 minutes to show on the live
wiki. If you were just experimenting, click _here_ to revert to the version
before your experiment, and try experimenting in the _Sandbox_."

The up-to-10-minute delay would I hope not hurt our Wiki nature too much.
Is there anyone who disagrees, or has qualms?

- d.


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:12:16 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
> In many CMS's there is the concept of a "trusted user", who has
> privileges to do such things, but is far from being a sysop. It might
> well be worth looking at a similar idea for wikipedia - which would
> allow such "judgment calls" to be made by users who have put the time
> in on wikipedia, but who aren't interested in, and do not need, full
> sysop privileges.

Note that there is a fine-grained permissions system currently under
development in MediaWiki. Theoretically, we will soon be able to have
any number of levels of user, or even just grant individual users the
rights "we" [the community] feel they deserve. And it's not beyond the
realms of possibility that relatively minor privileges (like
publishing changes to "semi-protected" pages, perhaps) could be
granted to any user account that's existed for X days, or made Y
edits, or perhaps submitted an automated request via a Special: page
(i.e. you give yourself the rights, implying that you know vaguely
what you're doing). See
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:User_levels

As somebody pointed out, having a *universal* edit delay (e.g. for all
edits by logged out users) would just be frustrating (and confusing)
for people who wanted to do passing minor editing. But what Jimbo
seems to be suggesting is a kind of "semi-protect" function which
triggers such a display *for a particular page*, which seems like a
very good idea.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: John Lee

subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>JAY JG (jayjg at hotmail.com) [050108 01:29]:
>
>
>
>>What if someone does 3 reverts, waits a full 24 hours, then does his "edit"
>>again, and reverts to it 3 times - has he violated the 3RR or not?  Does
>>the clock always start ticking *after* the first edit?
>>
>>
>
>
>If it's 24h 5 min and they do it consistently, they're pretty obviously
>gaming the system. I don't see how they could stay on a reverting quest
>like this without violating other policies along the way.
>
>
>- d.
>
>
Everyking comes to mind. [[User:Johnleemk/Autobiography dispute]] has a
list of selected edit summaries at the end where Everyking displays his
intent to game the 3RR (but he's already demonstrated that through his
behaviour). While arguably he may have broken our rules regarding
ownership of articles (if we have any), these rules are so arcane and/or
unwritten, there's no hard evidence. Everyking's successfully gamed the
system for a long time. iMeowbot points out on [[Wikipedia:Votes for
deletion/Autobiography promotion and publicity]] that Everyking seems to
have been gaming VfD as well in an attempt to get his data stored by
creating numerous subarticles in the knowledge that while we can delete
some, we can't delete all (i.e. [[Autobiography album design]] was
deleted, but the article on its sales and charting statistics was kept).

John Lee
([[User:Johnleemk]])


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: A portal page for www.wikipedia.org (was Re:
	Why www.wikipedia.org => en.wikipedia.org ?)

body:
Tim Starling (t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au) [050108 02:35]:

> I followed Angela's suggestion on this and set up an editable portal at
> www.wikipedia.org. There are two associated pages on meta, a protected
> HTML template:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_template
> And an unprotected wikitext body:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_portal

Excellent start! I'm sure we can get fancy in short order ...

> I've put up a temporary page there based on the language section of the
> English main page, please feel free to change it.

This should be the full language template (where is that?) - the version on
[[en:Main Page]] is only the languages with over 1000 articles.

- d.


from_name: NSK

subject: [Wikipedia-l] On 10 minutes delay, banning, and patrolling.

body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 03:22, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Please no - just use a tabbed browser instead. Hitting RC after reviewing
> each and every edit is a huge waste of server resources.

Wouldnt an html form with checkboxes and a button be better?

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales (jwales at wikia.com) [050108 03:29]:
> David Gerard wrote:

> > I would however advise taking *extreme care* to be sure it's actually
> > vandalism - a lot of it will just be sandboxing, i.e. "I can edit this
> > page? Huh? Let's see ... uh. I can. Um, what do I do now?"

> Well said.  Sandboxing is *good*, I mean, *ahem* it would be nice if
> people had a clue to try it somewhere other than a hugely popular
> page, but we can't hardly blame people for it.  I mean, most of them
> probably don't *believe* they can edit the page.
> Hmm, "edit this page"?  What?  <click> edit box?  That's weird.
> "blah blah blah"
> <click>
> Whoaaaa!
> Wikipedia is insane, so of course people don't believe it.

c.f. Clay Shirky's five stages of Wikipedia grief ;-)

> > I suppose the edit message for anon users should say something like "As an
> > anonymous editor, your edits will take up to 10 minutes to show on the live
> > wiki. If you were just experimenting, click _here_ to revert to the version
> > before your experiment, and try experimenting in the _Sandbox_."

> Excellent suggestion.

I'm not familiar with the code, so I dunno if this is in fact easier - but
if making the 10-minute delay feature seems a bit of a big goal in these
busy and trying times, then perhaps text something like the above "If you
were just experimenting" text - with a self-reversion link - could show up
after an anon edit.

(Of course, this assumes AOL doesn't switch them to a different proxy
between clicks or something ...)

> > The up-to-10-minute delay would I hope not hurt our Wiki nature too much.
> > Is there anyone who disagrees, or has qualms?

> A valid point here is that the 10 minute delay should actually be
> viewed as a step *back* to wiki nature.  Because what we end up doing
> right now is protecting pages.. a very brutal measure if we can think
> of something more creative and open.

With luck we can get rid of protection for mere vandalism.

- d.


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bibliography

in_reply_to:
<200501062354.AAA23339@germaine.webtechnologies.lu> (Caroline
	Ewen's message of "Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:54:38 +0100")

body:
"Caroline Ewen" <caroline at web.lu> writes:

> Don't get me wrong but why would there be a need for a tool to create a
> bibliography ? It's all quite simple: Surname, NAME, Title in italic, Edited
> by..., City, Year.
>
> Or did I misunderstand the whole "technology for bibliographical
> records"-thing ?

A wikibiblio is at least as useful as wikisource or wikiquote, somehow
I'd consider it as part of the commons project.

In Germany, the national bibliographical institute (DDB) does not
provide easy and free access to their record database as the LoC does in
the USA.  It's a waste of time that we have to enter those data again or
again (or making use of foreign services like the LoC).

And even the LoC does not have a database of articles of journals, AFAIK.

--
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                           |      ,__o
                                                        |    _-\_<,
                                                        |   (*)/'(*)
Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4  AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Frank v Waveren

subject: [Wikitech-l] automated email system needed to thank donors

body:
On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 08:19:20PM -0800, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Anybody here familiar with automated email systems? The board and I
> would like the ability to thank every person who donated last year
> via PayPal and Moneybookers. Such a system would also need to be used
> in the future to do the same thing.
What exactly is the issue? I assume you have all the addresses in a
flat text file or in the database? If you don't need parallelisation
all that's required then is a line of shellcode (while read -r
address; do mail -s "Thanks for the dosh!" "$address" <
~/GiveUsMoreMoneyPlease; done < ~/ListOfAddresses). Pull the standard
template through sed if you want to personalise things.

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8


body:
Mark Williamson (node.ue at gmail.com) [050108 04:52]:

> There is one version at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Wikipedialang/Proposal ,
> but if you look in the history of the current Wikipedialang template
> there is another.

So put that on there!

> I don't think we should include the English names of languages in an
> /international/ portal.

{{sofixit}} ;-)

I might fiddle with some ideas for the portal later. "About Wikipedia"
links in the top several languages, that sort of thing. You know a lot more
languages than me (more than one), you can go to town on this one I think.

- d.


from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Why www.wikipedia.org => en.wikipedia.org ?

body:
How about some introductory text (say one paragraph) which is in
whatever language the browser says as its preference. Then all the
wikipedias with foo+ articles in alphabetical order BUT at the front
of that list the defult language. Then after that the full
alphabetical list of all the languages (not quite where we order
non-latin scripts in that) in smaller font size.

Say for example i had quechua (about 8 articles atm) as my prefered
langauge it would display a paragraph explaining wikipedia (in
quechua) then have a link to Quechua then Deutsh, English, Francais
etc.

paz y amor,
[[User:The bellman]]

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:38:21 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> It does not make any sense for us to feature all 200 languages equally
> on this critical "first impression" page.  It doesn't make sense for
> us to accept an ugly page.  So, there is a design challenge, but I
> think we are up to it.
>
> I think the main thing is, we have to do it.
>

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Are legal threats blockable offenses?

body:
NSK stated for the record:

> Banning someone who made a legal threat may encourage him/her to actually sue.

We've banned several, and no one has ever carried out his empty threats.
  None.

--
  Sean Barrett     | You get a canoe later and I'll
  sean at epoptic.com | paddle you. --Groucho Marx


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject:
[WikiEN-l] www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects to the en main
	page

body:
--- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Basically, not making it en-only was so OBVIOUSLY the right thing (because,
> ahh, it isn't en-only - en's front page is en.wikipedia.org) that people
> just went 'w00t!' and dived right in.

I'm well aware of that and completely agree. I just don't like the fact that we
went live with a lame solution before developing something good. I know that
wikiwiki has always been cart-before-horse, but this is *very* visible real
estate.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project
	Has Been Around For A While

body:
Jean-Baptiste Soufron stated for the record:
>>
>> If Wikipedia does not change its attitudes, it will eventually die
>> from brain
>> drain: New, more expertise-friendly and intellectual wikis will emerge
>> and
>> WP's knowledgeable users will just immigrate there.
>
>
> Why would it die from brain drain when every facts are showing that
> wikipedia is currently ATTRACTING more and more brains ?

Wishful thinking on NSK's part -- he has decided that Wikipedia should
die, because he doesn't like it.

--
  Sean Barrett     | You get a canoe later and I'll
  sean at epoptic.com | paddle you. --Groucho Marx


from_name: Robert Brookes

subject:
[WikiEN-l] The irritation of a server being blocked through the
	actions of another

body:
One assumes that Arwel Parry was acting in good faith when he blocked IP 198.54.202.242. Sadly that is the IP of a server and thus will affect a large number of people if they happen to be members of Wikipedia. Surely there is a more technically precise manner in which to block vandals without blocking members who actually login to edit Wikipedia?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Jesse the man

subject:
Fwd: [WikiEN-l] www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects to the en main
	page

body:
1. German and French are over Japanese in the .ch portal because .CH
is the country code for Switzerland. - It makes sense to emphasize
languages used in Switzerland in the .CH portal.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:55:12 +0200
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects to the
en main page
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>

On Saturday 08 January 2005 16:17, David Gerard wrote:
> How? Because the languages are in an order?

The order is chosen with Western-American values. According to what I see on
my screen when I access wikipedia.ch, the Japanese and Greek languages are
not emphasised at all. The German language is emphasised more than Spanish.
The languages are not in alphabetic order. It is discriminatory and should
not be applied on wikipedia.org

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: foundation-l

from_name: eleonora

subject: [Foundation-l] legal question

body:
Hi,

The collection of quotes can be used for example:

- if the collector does not like the other editor, and knows his name, he can
find out his employer, and write to his employer defaming the author of the
quotes, for example.

-The collector can publish the quotes in any medium with for example paired
with a defaming description, hoping, that he hurts the author like that.

- If the author is a known person, the collector can publish a book with the
quote collection, praise the author of the quotes, and utilize the income of
the book solely for his own purposes.

Regards, Eleonora

>>
I would guess you are free to quote from another editor. (Though I
do not see the reason for creating such a page. In what way will
be such a page valuable?)
<<
>>
Who can help me, if I want to know, if it is legal, that a wikipedia editor
prepares a collection of quotes, that ?an other wikipedia editor wrote in
diverse articles, and puts this collection onto a wikipedia page? The quotes
are
exclusively from one wikipedia editor.

This is what the gdfl says:
----------------------------------------
4. modifications The author(s) and publisher(s) of the Document do not by
this
License give permission to use their names for publicity for or to assert or
imply endorsement of any Modified Version.

8. translation Translation is considered a kind of modification, so you may
distribute translations of the Document under the terms of section 4.

9. termination You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the
Document
except as expressly provided for under this License. Any other attempt to
copy,
modify, sublicense or distribute the Document is void, and will
automatically
terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received
copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses
terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance.
<<


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] legal question


from_name: Scott Nelson

subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
On Jan 8.2005, at 09:09, Pawe? 'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:

> The problem is it would be even easier to insert false data in such a
> wiki, as most of it will be impossible to check in sources, and would
> also be higly POV.

Sure, but this goes back to an earlier comment from Robin:

>> I really can not imagine many flame wars occuring for
>> "non-notable" poeple. Everyone has got an opinion on <insert world
>> leader here> or <insert any war here>, but does any one really have
>> strong feelings on bob black who died on 11/09?

Mistakes can creep into the most rigorously edited documents; even
encyclopaedias. Read "The Know it All" for some details about a few in
the Britannica (a good book too.)

How sensitive these mistakes are is proportionate to how often the
information is read. A mistake in an entry about Helmut Kohl could be a
serious problem, leading decades of school chidren astray. A mistake in
an entry about Scott Nelson isn't likely to have much of an impact on
anybody.

There's nothing wrong with POV; the Wiki's goal of a neutral POV is a
valiant, but flawed, quest. That it will never be perfectly neutral
doesn't invalidate the attempt to achieve such a thing.

So these entries would have a POV, as they should.


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


from_name: Josh Gerdes

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Multilanguage portal

body:
I agree, but highlighting based on browser preferences is still a good idea.

Josh Gerdes
(en:User:JoshG)

Mark Williamson wrote:
> I think the best idea is just to have the name of the language.
>
> Mark
>
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 20:37:34 +0100, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
>
>>I have (again) hacked together a minimal demo of a multilanguage portal.
>>This is not for its good looks but for the function it provides.
>>
>>To be amazed by it, dial
>>    http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/portal.php
>>
>>The page is generated from two local files containing the text and the
>>article numbers, respectively. Calling the script with
>>    http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/portal.php?update
>>will update the local files from online files, which are hardcoded into
>>the script. The article number file, which would normally be generated
>>automatically once a day, is at
>>    http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/num.txt
>>and the text, to be editable for all, is at
>>    http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PortalText
>>
>>Based on these files, and on your browser settings, it will highlight
>>what *might* be your favourite language(s). If you set multiple
>>languages in your browser, it will highlight them all. If your browser
>>sets different weights for these languages, they will appear in
>>different shades of grey.
>>
>>Yes, there is no other layout whatsoever. Don't complain. Web designers
>>to the rescue!
>>
>>Magnus
>>
>>P.S.: Script is in CVS HEAD; "portal.php" in maintenance
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Everything approved at some point on en, ultimately is applied on
>> other projects...
>
> This is exactly the reason why it is correct that things to do with
> en:wikipedia only should be discussed on the en:wikipedia mailing list.
>
> This mailing list is to deal with all things wikipedia. When the
> en:wikipedia decides for all projects, it is hardly NPOV. I am sure
> that many feel ill at ease with the systemic bias that gives us
> everything what is decided in the en:wikipedia context. I believe that
> with the growth of the other projects it becomes less acceptable that
> the English language wikipedia decides how things will pan out. Yes,
> people could vote on en:wikipeda but do not, because it is not their
> project.

Absolutely.  Each project has its own set of problems.  Even when they
are the same problems they may have been solved differently.  If the
participants at Wiktionary have been able to resolve a problem by a
friendly consensus while the same problem could only be resolved in the
opposite way at en:Wikipedia after an acrimonious debate and vote I
would certainly resent an imposition of the Wikipedia solution on
Wiktionary.  When a problem arises on en:Wikipedia the participants in
another project may not see it as a problem at the time; the need to
discuss it may not be relevant to them for a year or more.  When it does
arise we would not want to be bound by a closed year-old vote.

Ec


body:
Anthere wrote:
>
>
> Tim Starling a ?crit:
>
>> I followed Angela's suggestion on this and set up an editable portal
>> at www.wikipedia.org. There are two associated pages on meta, a
>> protected HTML template:
>
>
> Check your facts, it is more polite.

Sorry, a suggestion from Anthere that was relayed to me via Angela.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Foundation-l] legal question

body:
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:17:58 +0100, eleonora <eleonora46 at gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The collection of quotes can be used for example:
>
> - if the collector does not like the other editor, and knows his name, he can
> find out his employer, and write to his employer defaming the author of the
> quotes, for example.
>
> -The collector can publish the quotes in any medium with for example paired
> with a defaming description, hoping, that he hurts the author like that.

Several issues here:
* First, these might be allowed even for works without a license,
since taking a quote is typically a citation, and giving a 'judgement'
of the work is typically an area in which fair use rights are much
applicable.
* Second, in various European countries there might be a breaking here
of the 'moral rights' the author has, for example in the Netherlands
someone has the right to protest against any "deformation of the work
that would do damage to the good name of the maker or his honorability
as such" (not a literal translation)
* Third, I think that in fighting against this issue, defamation would
be a more applicable avenue than copyright

> - If the author is a known person, the collector can publish a book with the
> quote collection, praise the author of the quotes, and utilize the income of
> the book solely for his own purposes.

I don't see how this differs from taking a Wikipedia article,
publishing it, and utilizing the income solely for his own purposes,
which is allowed. The only thing is that the quoted part of the
GNU/FDL clearly says you may not imply the person you are quoting is
endorsing your publication.

Andre Engels


subject: [Foundation-l] legal question


from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bibliography

body:
On Jan 8, 2005, at 1:22 AM, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

> "Caroline Ewen" <caroline at web.lu> writes:
>
>> Don't get me wrong but why would there be a need for a tool to create
>> a
>> bibliography ? It's all quite simple: Surname, NAME, Title in italic,
>> Edited
>> by..., City, Year.
>>
>> Or did I misunderstand the whole "technology for bibliographical
>> records"-thing ?

I won't repeat the entirety here, but I will instead summarize merely
the obvious reasons.

1. Value of editors time. Just because you aren't paying for it,
doesn't mean it is either unlimited in quantity or valueless.
2. Assured canonical format. No mistakes, if the link shows up blue,
you got it right.
3. Value of editors time part II: poves have access to precompiled
bibliographies, we are asking editors to compete with organizations
backed with money.
4. Value gained. It is wikipedians and wikimedia that is leading the
drive to compete with other data sources for reputability. It, not the
individual editors, gains the advantages, to pass on the costs and take
the gains - while moralizing about how lazy and stupid the editors are
verges on unethical behavior.
5. Citation resource has a value in and of itself. It allows annotation
of sources, trees of editions, cross referencing (what articles link to
a particular source) flexible categorization of sources.
6. There are paid versions of such tools, most of which do no more than
provide an interface and a database to free information. It is clearly
part of wikimedia's mission to provide free and open versions of tools
for knowledge work to the public where such exist in proprietary forms.


body:
The only thing you can do, is look for articles that do not have an
interwiki link for the given language. If using that definition, and
if English is not the language you intend to be translating _to_, I
have made a list at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Common_Interwiki_links.

Andre Engels

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:51:00 -0500, Patrick Hall <pathall at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there any way to get a list of articles which have no corresponding
> article across languages?
>
> For instance, there is no English version of:
>
> http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arapiraca
>
> To pick an exemplo aleat?rio.
>
> I'd like to get a big list of those and look for articles that might
> be interesting to translate.


from_name: Dr Zen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
Jay wrote:
>What if someone does 3 reverts, waits a >full 24 hours, then does his "edit"
>again, and reverts to it 3 times - has he >violated the 3RR or not?  Does the
>clock always start ticking *after* the first >edit?

Surely, if the first "edit" reverted to eir POV, then it's a revert?

Let's say that there is an editor called Mystery SnuffEr, who has eir
own version of an article, and each day they replace what's their with
their version. Well, it's a revert, isn't it? If they made a
progressive edit, that's different.

Zen


from_name: Nicholas Knight

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects to the en
	main	page

body:
John Lee wrote:

> These changes were made after some discussion on Wikipedia-l, but that's
> still not the same as talking to those who will be affected.

I must confess I'm confused as to who will be affected.

Anyone going to www.wikipedia.org will be able to click one link to get
to the English version (or any other version).

Anyone going to www.wikipedia.org/wiki/anything will be redirected to
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/anything, as has been occurring for
I-don't-know-how-long.

What's the problem, exactly?


body:
I agree with Marco here. Even if we make clear what happens, I think
it is a serious step away from the wiki principle. I would also be
against implementation on Wikipedias other than en:, where control
times are usually longer.

Andre Engels

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:28:17 +0100, Marco Krohn <marco.krohn at gmx.de> wrote:
> good idea to stop vandals, but a new user with good intentions will be
> seriously confused and probably not understand what the "edit" button is for.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bibliography

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>"Caroline Ewen" <caroline at web.lu> writes:
>
>
>>Don't get me wrong but why would there be a need for a tool to create a
>>bibliography ? It's all quite simple: Surname, NAME, Title in italic, Edited
>>by..., City, Year.
>>
>>Or did I misunderstand the whole "technology for bibliographical
>>records"-thing ?
>>
>>
>A wikibiblio is at least as useful as wikisource or wikiquote, somehow
>I'd consider it as part of the commons project.
>
>In Germany, the national bibliographical institute (DDB) does not
>provide easy and free access to their record database as the LoC does in
>the USA.  It's a waste of time that we have to enter those data again or
>again (or making use of foreign services like the LoC).
>
>And even the LoC does not have a database of articles of journals, AFAIK.
>
 From the beginning one of the purposes of the "Author" pages in
Wikisource has been bibliographic.  It only needs for people to enter
the information, but that would need to be done wherever the
bibliography is at home.

Ec


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Jimbo said:
> Stirling Newberry wrote:>
>> In many CMS's there is the concept of a "trusted user", who has
>> privileges to do such things, but is far from being a sysop. It might
>> well be worth looking at a similar idea for wikipedia - which would
>> allow such "judgment calls" to be made by users who have put the time
>> in on wikipedia, but who aren't interested in, and do not need, full
>> sysop privileges.
>
> Agreed.  I think this makes perfect sense.  It does mean that a vandal
> can still force through vandalism now and again, but it is more clicks
> for them to do it, and anyway this option is "softer" and therefore
> should be tried first.  The harder option of restricting 'force
> publication' to sysops would still be available at a later date.
>
I really like that idea of an intermediate user privilege level.  Someone
who has been around and is known after a couple of months of editing,
regulars have seen and are able to make a judgement on.  Newcomers less
so, and conversely we should have lower expectations of newcomers and
remember not to bite the newbies.
This would also give more established users an incentive to keep their
noses clean (though determined trolls could always use sock puppets,
alas).  Yes, a loss of this privilege would be an extra sanction available
to rein in determined edit warriors.


body:
NSK wrote:

>On Saturday 08 January 2005 10:35, Jeff Cook wrote:
>
>
>>to give notice before he goes ahead with litigation. It's beneficial. I
>>don't really think threats of legal action are a big deal.
>>
>>
>Banning someone who made a legal threat may encourage him/her to actually sue.
>
There's a need to distinguish between legal "threats" and a statement of
intention to uphold one's legal rights.  People who are just making idle
threats have a tendency to regularly repeat their threats in all sorts
of circumstances, and really doing nothing to back up the words.  Like
Jeff I don't consider legal threats to be a big deal.

Ec


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] www portal: "The Free Encyclopedia" in Japanese?

body:
I think that's a moot point, as the ideal portal should just have
names of languages to choose from - nothing to be translated.

Mark

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:00:12 +1100, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
> My crappy Win2k laptop won't do non-ISO-8859-1 very well at all. (This is
> not a request for tech support.) So, while fiddling with the portal page, I
> managed to put "The Free Encyclopedia" up the top in all the six >50k
> languages except Japanese. Could someone please fix this? It should be the
> characters used on their version of the Wikipedia logo.
>
> The portal template is [[m:Www.wikipedia.org_portal]] .
>
> (Also, I see the logo has no version of our glorious catchphrase. Would
> someone be able to do a version with all six versions? I would except I'm
> in a rush today.)
>
> For those wondering, the next three largest languages are nl: (47k
> articles), it: (32k) and pt: (28k). I predict nl: will go on an all-out
> drive for new articles ;-)
>
> It'd be nice if our page was as cool as www.wikipedia.ch . Six search
> boxes?
>
> Kate mooted on IRC the idea of autotranslating the page based on browser
> accept language - not quite a redirect, but the same content rendered in
> the language the browser says it speaks. What do you all think?
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Multilanguage portal

body:
Perhaps. It would make it easier for people to locate a preferred
language, although it might lead them to not notice a language they'd
rather use (ie, French might be highlighted so they wouldn't know we
have an Occitan Wikipedia) by drawing attention away from it.

Mark

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:13:55 -0600, Josh Gerdes
<wikipedia at gerdesfamily.com> wrote:
> I agree, but highlighting based on browser preferences is still a good idea.
>
> Josh Gerdes
> (en:User:JoshG)
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > I think the best idea is just to have the name of the language.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 20:37:34 +0100, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> >
> >>I have (again) hacked together a minimal demo of a multilanguage portal.
> >>This is not for its good looks but for the function it provides.
> >>
> >>To be amazed by it, dial
> >>    http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/portal.php
> >>
> >>The page is generated from two local files containing the text and the
> >>article numbers, respectively. Calling the script with
> >>    http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/portal.php?update
> >>will update the local files from online files, which are hardcoded into
> >>the script. The article number file, which would normally be generated
> >>automatically once a day, is at
> >>    http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/num.txt
> >>and the text, to be editable for all, is at
> >>    http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PortalText
> >>
> >>Based on these files, and on your browser settings, it will highlight
> >>what *might* be your favourite language(s). If you set multiple
> >>languages in your browser, it will highlight them all. If your browser
> >>sets different weights for these languages, they will appear in
> >>different shades of grey.
> >>
> >>Yes, there is no other layout whatsoever. Don't complain. Web designers
> >>to the rescue!
> >>
> >>Magnus
> >>
> >>P.S.: Script is in CVS HEAD; "portal.php" in maintenance
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Anthere

body:
Everything approved at some point on en, ultimately is applied on other
projects...

But I do not really see how what I propose in against wiki principles
while to my opinion, the time delay is and will be confusing. Or that
means I really do not understand Jimbo's proposal. In any cases, I do
not like it :-(

Andre Engels a ?crit:
> I agree with Marco here. Even if we make clear what happens, I think
> it is a serious step away from the wiki principle. I would also be
> against implementation on Wikipedias other than en:, where control
> times are usually longer.
>
> Andre Engels
>
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:28:17 +0100, Marco Krohn <marco.krohn at gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>good idea to stop vandals, but a new user with good intentions will be
>>seriously confused and probably not understand what the "edit" button is for.
>


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Everything approved at some point on en, ultimately is applied on
> other projects...

This is exactly the reason why it is correct that things to do with
en:wikipedia only should be discussed on the en:wikipedia mailing list.

This mailing list is to deal with all things wikipedia. When the
en:wikipedia decides for all projects, it is hardly NPOV. I am sure that
many feel ill at ease with the systemic bias that gives us everything
what is decided in the en:wikipedia context. I believe that with the
growth of the other projects it becomes less acceptable that the English
language wikipedia decides how things will pan out. Yes, people could
vote on en:wikipeda but do not, because it is not their project.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: John Lee

subject: [Wikitech-l] Why www.wikipedia.org => en.wikipedia.org ?

body:
NSK wrote:

>On Friday 07 January 2005 22:43, Delirium wrote:
>
>
>>I should also point out that that's a completely irrelevant example, and
>>discriminatory as well.  It has a mere 20 languages
>>
>>
>
>EU pays translators for all these languages. It is amazing that they can
>manage to fund their translation projects, considering that in some countries
>(baltic states) translation was not a profession until 1990's.
>
>
>
>>discriminate against many languages spoken in the EU, which which are
>>minority languages and so have lesser official status.  For example,
>>there is no link to Occitan, or Basque.
>>
>>
>
>http://www.europarl.eu.int/charter/civil/pdf/con33_en.pdf
>
>The PDF file states: "Cultural and linguistic diversity in Europe lies at the
>heart of fundamental rights for its citizens as the integration process
>advances". EU does recognise diversity.
>
>http://europa.eu.int/comm/education/policies/lang/languages/index_en.html
>
>From the above page you can see the 20 official languages of the EU. Can you
>think of any other confederation in history or in the modern world having 20
>official languages?
>
>Welsh has been spoken in the Europarl. Sorry but I don't have a handy link
>right now.
>
>
>
That is not the point! The point is, the EU itself isn't fair in
translating its website, because it ignores minority languages.
Wikipedia doesn't have to be "fair" either, anyway. We are not the EU.

I personally prefer the tiered system; alphabetise the languages, but
place them in separate categories. It's perfectly fair, *and it's just
plain common sense*. There's no point in inconveniencing 95% of our
users just so we can make the dubious claim of being "fair".

John Lee
([[en:User:Johnleemk]])


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] about Wikipedia's subjects

body:
No, no, no.

Don't use your User space as a message board.  This has been considered misuse of Wikipedia in the past.

RickK

Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah, that, or stick it in your userspace. but I would warn that
this would be for low volume. Perhaps a blog with comments enabled
would be adequate too.

--- Stacey Greenstein wrote:

> Wikipedia is not for primary research. It is a collaborative
> encyclopedia project. You can use other tools (including the
> wikimedia
> software) to create collaborative projects like you describe.
>
>
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 04:35:18 +0100, Fe_Bono
> wrote:
> > I have a doubt : What if I invent something, like a word, and
> someone
> > outside my country dosn't know it and changes it from the
> wikipedia ?
> > I want to create something, and put it in Wikipedia so the people
> can
> > create the idea with me.
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


body:
Legal threats are all hot air and an attempt to force a POV.  Unless they somehow get bomis's provider to give up the sued person's web address, and then they somehow get THAT person's provider to give up the person's personal information, there's no way they can sue.  Especially on an international project.

RickK

NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 10:35, Jeff Cook wrote:
> to give notice before he goes ahead with litigation. It's beneficial. I
> don't really think threats of legal action are a big deal. Usually it's

Banning someone who made a legal threat may encourage him/her to actually sue.

--
NSK

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free!


from_name: Pat Young

subject: [WikiEN-l] PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM THIS LIST<>>>>>>IMMEDIATELY

body: TOO   MANY  STRANGE  ADDRESSES!!!


from_name: Arkady Rose

body:
NSK wrote:
> On Saturday 08 January 2005 16:17, David Gerard wrote:
>
>>How? Because the languages are in an order?
>
>
> The order is chosen with Western-American values. According to what I see on
> my screen when I access wikipedia.ch, the Japanese and Greek languages are
> not emphasised at all. The German language is emphasised more than Spanish.
> The languages are not in alphabetic order. It is discriminatory and should
> not be applied on wikipedia.org
>
How many articles are there in the German WP? How many in the
Spanish one? Could it be that emphasis is according to total number
of articles rather than any (potentially mistaken) perceived bias?

-a


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

body:
http://www.europa.eu.int is cool.

Christiaan

On 8 Jan 2005, at 2:18 pm, NSK wrote:

> On Saturday 08 January 2005 14:24, David Gerard wrote:
>> hopefully to make it as nice as, say, www.wikipedia.ch, with
>
> I don't think wikipedia.ch is a good multilingual homepage as I find it
> discriminatory. Better use a design similar to
> http://www.europa.eu.int or
> http://www.europarl.eu.int
>
> --
> NSK
> The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
> Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
> Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: com

references:
<200501082355.58144.nsk2@wikinerds.org>	<849f98ed05010815301fdabe63@mail.gmail.com>
	<crptqo$avh$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:

> Education is the objective of Wikipedia . Lets learn our users that
> there is a difference between a .org and a .com

Sounds like an argument for becoming "wikipedia.edu" :-)

Ec


from_name: NSK

subject: [Foundation-l] legal question

body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 10:17, eleonora wrote:
> - if the collector does not like the other editor, and knows his name, he
> can find out his employer, and write to his employer defaming the author of
> the quotes, for example.

For these reasons I discourage interpersonal communication in my wikis and I
have set up mailing lists and a web forum, as well as a special web-based
collaboration platform with phpcollab. I suggest Wikipedia to do the same:
All talk pages should redirect to a phpbb thread.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


subject: [Foundation-l] legal question


body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 08:42, Mark Pellegrini wrote:
> First of all, this is a MAJOR, MAJOR change and was totally unannounced.
> Nor did anyone in the community get a chance to object before it was put
> into place.

That was an good major change, and obviously good changes don't need to be
objected, especially considering that the leader of the project agreed with
it.

Seriously, in this case, it was thouroughly discussed in the mailing list, so
actually anybody could object.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 10:35, Jeff Cook wrote:
> to give notice before he goes ahead with litigation. It's beneficial. I
> don't really think threats of legal action are a big deal. Usually it's

Banning someone who made a legal threat may encourage him/her to actually sue.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 14:24, David Gerard wrote:
> hopefully to make it as nice as, say, www.wikipedia.ch, with

I don't think wikipedia.ch is a good multilingual homepage as I find it
discriminatory. Better use a design similar to http://www.europa.eu.int or
http://www.europarl.eu.int

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


body:
Definitely. The only purpose it should serve is to direct the user to
the desired Wikipedia. There are "search" and "go" boxes at the
respective Wikipedias.

Another issue is size. All the languages with over 100 articles will
easily fit in a minimalist portal, but if you want to have search and
go boxes, article of the week, whatever, for each one - even if you
restrict it to above 1000 articles - it's going to be gargantuan and
un-useful.

One prediction I have is that somebody will suggest adding flags to
make it easier to choose languages. This is a BAD idea because there
are speakers of French in Japan, speakers of Thai in Malta, speakers
of Catalan in Greece, etc; also some languages are indigenous to more
than one country, or they don't have a corresponding flag (for
diaspora languages such as Yiddish and Ladino), or it's not
recognizable to most speakers of the language.

Mark

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:53:45 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> On Saturday 08 January 2005 23:36, David Gerard wrote:
> > That must be some sort of absolute minimalist portal, then ... which I'm
> > *not* sure is the best portal.
>
> A minimalist portal is the best thing you can have.
>
> --
> NSK
> The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
> Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
> Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] com

body:
Indeed - can somebody change it?

Mark

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:55:58 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> wikipedia.com still redirects to en
>
> --
> NSK
> The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
> Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
> Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] PostgreSQL support?

body:
On Jan 8, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Ian Barwick wrote:
> is anyone actively working on PostgreSQL support for MediaWiki?
> I`ve just managed to get the latest 1.4beta working after a fashion,
> but I'm coming across many minor problems I'd be able to provide
> patches for.

Domas has been working on this off and on; his installation
instructions: http://ph3.defau.lt/index.php/Install

If you can catch him in #mediawiki on irc.freenode.net, he usually goes
by the nick 'dammit'.

If you file any PostgreSQL-related problems or patches in bugzilla,
please mark them as blocking this tracking bug:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=384

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 16:17, David Gerard wrote:
> How? Because the languages are in an order?

The order is chosen with Western-American values. According to what I see on
my screen when I access wikipedia.ch, the Japanese and Greek languages are
not emphasised at all. The German language is emphasised more than Spanish.
The languages are not in alphabetic order. It is discriminatory and should
not be applied on wikipedia.org

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


body:
On 8 Jan 2005, at 4:59 pm, Robert Brookes wrote:

> One assumes that Arwel Parry was acting in good faith when he blocked
> IP 198.54.202.242. Sadly that is the IP of a server and thus will
> affect a large number of people if they happen to be members of
> Wikipedia. Surely there is a more technically precise manner in which
> to block vandals without blocking members who actually login to edit
> Wikipedia?

Is it possible to code MediaWiki so you could block IP addresses with
exception to designated users.

Christiaan


body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 16:52, Arkady Rose wrote:
> How many articles are there in the German WP? How many in the
> Spanish one? Could it be that emphasis is according to total number
> of articles rather than any (potentially mistaken) perceived bias?

The current wikipedia.org portal explains (in English) that the order is
according to the number of articles of each Wikipedia. I find no language or
cultural discrimination in wikipedia.org, except for the fact that using the
English word "articles" and not an icon or image is itself discriminatory.

But the wikipedia.ch page does not explain that it any way, so most people
will find it discriminatory.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects to the en main
	page

body:
I would also like to know why this was changed. It's the first I've
heard of it!

TSBDY

Mark Pellegrini wrote:
> I'd like to start out by noting that www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects
> to the english
> wikipedia's main page. Instead, it's been turned into a replica of the
> language template.
> Deeper links ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/name_of_article ) still work, but the
> main page
> does not.
>
> First of all, this is a MAJOR, MAJOR change and was totally unannounced. Nor
> did anyone in the community get a chance to object before it was put into
> place.
> (Because I suspect there would have been a major outcry)
>
> Second of all, I cannot fathom why the this was changed. By now, there's a
> huge
> inertia behind the fact that www.wikipeda.org links to the english main
> page.
> This is going to break *MANY* links, bookmarks, etc. We (the english
> Wikipedia) are
> goings to lose significant number of potential contributors because of this.
>
> Why the hell was this changed? Why was no one told before hand, or even
> afterward?
>
> --Mark


from_name: Paweł 'Ausir' Dembowski

subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
RS> So, um, no matter how fun french/american/little green men from mars
RS> bashing may be; how about we go back to the idea of wikipeople, what's
RS> wrong with it? Its been around for quite a while and hasnt got up yet.
RS> Why? We already have content to put into it (11/09wiki) and it could
RS> tie up some loose ends, so what are the objections to it? The only
RS> objection i have heard so far is that it would turn into one big flame
RS> war (something i disagree with). Any other objecitons?

The problem is it would be even easier to insert false data in such a
wiki, as most of it will be impossible to check in sources, and would
also be higly POV.

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 17:44, David Gerard wrote:
> I'm not sure of an icon that would mean "articles" *blindingly obviously*,

I would do this: en/fr/de/etc represented by n.articles/10000 icons of books.
So, a Wikipedia with 100000 articles would be represented by 10 books. In
case too large and too small values create problems, you can use a
logarithmic scale.

Another idea is to use a graph: Axis x will represent language families and
axis y will represent the number of articles. The points on the graph will
represent individual languages, within their language family. So, Asian
languages would be, for example, first because A is the first letter of the
alphabet. Then we would have Germanic and Romance languages etc. Perhaps I
should draw a picture to show you what I mean, exactly, but I don't have the
time.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Mark Pellegrini wrote:
> I'd like to start out by noting that www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects
> to the english
> wikipedia's main page. Instead, it's been turned into a replica of the
> language template.
> Deeper links ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/name_of_article ) still work, but the
> main page
> does not.
>
> First of all, this is a MAJOR, MAJOR change and was totally unannounced. Nor
> did anyone in the community get a chance to object before it was put into
> place.
> (Because I suspect there would have been a major outcry)
>
> Second of all, I cannot fathom why the this was changed. By now, there's a
> huge
> inertia behind the fact that www.wikipeda.org links to the english main
> page.
> This is going to break *MANY* links, bookmarks, etc. We (the english
> Wikipedia) are
> goings to lose significant number of potential contributors because of this.
>
> Why the hell was this changed? Why was no one told before hand, or even
> afterward?
>

Don't you read wikipedia-l? It was discussed there and announced there.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: com

body:
What's the very good reason? That it's been like that forever? That's
not a reason.

As long as article URLs can find their way to en.wikipedia, the .co.uk
article should redirect to http://www.wikipedia.org/ . No specific
country URL should redirect to a specific Wikipedia, at least when
it's a URL we have control over, and even country-specific portals (ie
the ch-portal) might inconvenience users whose language falls outside
of the languages included in the portal.

How much will it inconvenience somebody who tries to go to
http://wikipedia.co.uk/ to end up at a site asking them to select
their language?

Mark

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:41:13 +1100, Tim Starling
<t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> NSK wrote:
> > On Sunday 09 January 2005 05:57, Tim Starling wrote:
> >
> >>wikipedia.co.uk -> en.wikipedia.org
> >
> >
> > There is no reason to have co.uk redirect to .org because English is not the
> > only language spoken in the United Kingdom.
>
> There's a very good reason for having that redirect set up. It's been
> like that forever, we don't have a portal, and I couldn't be bothered
> making one. Write one yourself if it concerns you so much.
>
> -- Tim Starling.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: A portal page for www.wikipedia.org (was Re:
	Whywww.wikipedia.org => en.wikipedia.org ?)

body:
NSK stated for the record:
> On Sunday 09 January 2005 06:27, Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>>No other symbols exist that so clearly and
>>graphically identify the respective languages. And I thing it having
>
>
> Language maps.

What language do I get if I click on Switzerland?
Where do I click to get Esperanto?

--
  Sean Barrett     | You get a canoe later and I'll
  sean at epoptic.com | paddle you. --Groucho Marx


from_name: Stirling Newberry

body:
On Jan 8, 2005, at 9:52 PM, Jens Ropers wrote:

>
> <slagging>
> No, no. It's not that he doesn't like it ''in principle''. He loves
> ''the idea'' so much, he wishes he'd had it ''first'' -- and he'd do
> anything to make his own MediaWiki install catch up with and overtake
> Wikipedia. (Am I right not, NSK? ;-) Could take some time though, I
> reckon.
> </slagging>
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com
>
>

First in the field isn't always last on the field. There are cogent
criticisms from Sanger and NSK which should be incorporated into future
work. Articles like Flood geology are going to be a credibility problem
until they are dealt with, and the vulnerability of wikipedia to being
capsized by organized groups of poves is a security flaw for which
there are not sufficient safeguards.

Wikipedia is a unique place and a unique project, but the bleeding edge
keeps moving forward. While NSK's POV may not be welcome or popular,
and I certainly don't endorse his solutions, he is expressing useful
information that will be required to win over sceptics. The argument is
very similar to the Linux/NetBSD arguments. NetBSD wanted more
verification on contributors, and probably produced a slightly better
OS, Linux won the mindshare war, simply because it could capture talent
early.


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Daniel Mayer (maveric149 at yahoo.com) [050108 19:40]:
> --- Mark Pellegrini <mapellegrini at comcast.net> wrote:

> > I'd like to start out by noting that www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects
> > to the english wikipedia's main page. Instead, it's been turned into a
> > replica of the language template.
> > Deeper links ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/name_of_article ) still work, but the
> > main page does not.

> Doing this was the general consensus a very long time ago (about a year ago I
> think). The only real issue was that noone could come up with a good technical
> solution that most people liked. That still seems to be the case.

It was mentioned again on wikipedia-l because this is an international
project, not just en:, and so Tim Starling finally put it into place.
Magnus Manske is also working on some slightly fancier portal stuff,
hopefully to make it as nice as, say, www.wikipedia.ch, with
auto-highlighting of those languages one's browser is set to accept.

Thread starts at
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-January/036522.html .
This thread (not this message) also names the two pages that go to make up
the front page portal.

Basically, not making it en-only was so OBVIOUSLY the right thing (because,
ahh, it isn't en-only - en's front page is en.wikipedia.org) that people
just went 'w00t!' and dived right in.

> Instead we should have a design competition in order to encourage the creation
> of better solutions on what to put at www.wikipedia.org.

Or in the meantime, we can edit this page ;-)

It's starting small and getting better, pretty quickly.

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Random page bias

body:
On Jan 8, 2005, at 10:59 PM, Robert Dodier wrote:
[snip]
> I guess that we could directly test this by dumping out
> cur_random and computing the gaps.

Please feel free to do so. cur table dumps are available to the public
at  http://download.wikimedia.org/

> Sorry if this is just a rerun of some earlier discussion.
> I did look but couldn't find anything.

http://www.google.com/search?
hl=en&lr=&q=site%3Amail.wikipedia.org+cur_random&btnG=Search

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] pywikipediabot

body:
Hoi,
Andre Engels wrote some further extensions to the pywikipedia bot. It
allows you to update the interlanguage links. The way it works is by
distinguishing between the wiktionaries that DO capitalise and the ones
that do not. When a word exists that is capitalised, it will look for
capitalised words only and look for a match. When a wiktionary only has
capitalised words, it will not look for the uncapitalised words in that
wiktionary.

When you use the software, the file user-config.py contains three lines
that contain in my case:
    mylang = "nl"
    family = "wiktionary"
    username = "RobotGMwikt"

The software is used from a prompt: in windows "cmd"
You login using the login.py program; it tells you the user it will be
using and you will have to provide a password.

Then you run the program by typing interwiki.py -wiktionary -start:!
This will do try to find all links in all wiktionaries (bigger than 100
words) from the first onwards. When it finds words with an exact match
it will create an interwiki link. It will only update one article a
minute in order not to be too big a burden on the database.

I am running it for the nl:wiktionary as I write this. It has updated 59
articles so far and the last one is Arnavutluk a Turkish word. It should
run (as a bot) every now and then on all wiktionaries. To make clear
that a word that is written inexactly the same way in other wiktionaries.

If you want the software, it can be found on Sourceforge
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywikipediabot/ or you can ask me to
send you the ZIP file Andre send me.

Thanks,
    GerardM


body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 23:36, David Gerard wrote:
> That must be some sort of absolute minimalist portal, then ... which I'm
> *not* sure is the best portal.

A minimalist portal is the best thing you can have.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


subject: [Wikipedia-l] com

body:
wikipedia.com still redirects to en

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


body:
On Saturday 08 January 2005 06:19, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Anybody here familiar with automated email systems? The board and I would
> like the ability to thank every person who donated last year via PayPal and
> Moneybookers. Such a system would also need to be used in the future to do
> the same thing.

I personally hate automated emailing. All new members of the Wikinerds
Community receive a personal welcome email or message from me, typed by me,
and everytime it is a different one. Every person is happy to be unique and
this uniqueness must be reaffirmed in every communication.

When I donate to a project I expect not a machine, but a real human to thank
me. There are many Wikipedians in your project and I am sure that it is
possible to find willing Wikipedians to write short "thank you" messages to
the donors. The messages, however, should not be send from the Wikipedians
but by an automated software system or a trusted administrator (who will also
moderate the messages), for the protection of the donors' privacy.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


from_name: Ian Barwick

subject: [Wikitech-l] PostgreSQL support?

body:
Hi

is anyone actively working on PostgreSQL support for MediaWiki?
I`ve just managed to get the latest 1.4beta working after a fashion,
but I'm coming across many minor problems I'd be able to provide
patches for.

Ian Barwick


body:
My crappy Win2k laptop won't do non-ISO-8859-1 very well at all. (This is
not a request for tech support.) So, while fiddling with the portal page, I
managed to put "The Free Encyclopedia" up the top in all the six >50k
languages except Japanese. Could someone please fix this? It should be the
characters used on their version of the Wikipedia logo.

The portal template is [[m:Www.wikipedia.org_portal]] .

(Also, I see the logo has no version of our glorious catchphrase. Would
someone be able to do a version with all six versions? I would except I'm
in a rush today.)

For those wondering, the next three largest languages are nl: (47k
articles), it: (32k) and pt: (28k). I predict nl: will go on an all-out
drive for new articles ;-)

It'd be nice if our page was as cool as www.wikipedia.ch . Six search
boxes?

Kate mooted on IRC the idea of autotranslating the page based on browser
accept language - not quite a redirect, but the same content rendered in
the language the browser says it speaks. What do you all think?

- d.


body:
NSK (nsk2 at wikinerds.org) [050109 01:11]:
> On Saturday 08 January 2005 14:24, David Gerard wrote:

> > hopefully to make it as nice as, say, www.wikipedia.ch, with

> I don't think wikipedia.ch is a good multilingual homepage as I find it
> discriminatory.

How? Because the languages are in an order?

> Better use a design similar to http://www.europa.eu.int or
> http://www.europarl.eu.int

You mean pretty much what www.wikipedia.org is doing right now ;-)

I think the present version (separating out large and small languages)
beats the previous version, [[m:The_provisional_portal_of_Wikipedia]], on
sheer usability.

- d.


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: com

body:
Mark Williamson schreef:
> Indeed - can somebody change it?
>
> Mark

Many thanks for the portal at www.wikipedia.org

Regarding www.wikipedia.com;

Wikipedia is a non-profit organization. It is even more non-profit then
most non-profit organizations.

* no paid staff
* absolutely no ads
* income are only form donations
* access to the product is free, use of the product for commercial
purpose is allowed

You can not be more non-profit then Wikipedia.

For this reason Wikipedia should be proud to be a .org

If you use wikipedia.com and redirect directly to wikipedia.org most
users will not notice the difference.

I suggest to point www.wikipedia.com to a very basic page that contains;

Wikipedia IS NOT .com

www.wikipedia.org

And a auto redirect whit a delay of 8 seconds.

Instead of IS NOT you can use the symbol = whit / over it.

Education is the objective of Wikipedia . Lets learn our users that
there is a difference between a .org and a .com

To name Wikipedia a .com is a great insult to all Wikipedians.

--
[[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]]


from_name: Josh Gerdes

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Multilanguage portal

body:
I had not thought of that, but it is a valid concern.

Josh Gerdes
(en:User:JoshG)

Mark Williamson wrote:
> Perhaps. It would make it easier for people to locate a preferred
> language, although it might lead them to not notice a language they'd
> rather use (ie, French might be highlighted so they wouldn't know we
> have an Occitan Wikipedia) by drawing attention away from it.
>
> Mark
>
> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:13:55 -0600, Josh Gerdes
> <wikipedia at gerdesfamily.com> wrote:
>
>>I agree, but highlighting based on browser preferences is still a good idea.
>>
>>Josh Gerdes
>>(en:User:JoshG)
>>
>>Mark Williamson wrote:
>>
>>>I think the best idea is just to have the name of the language.
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 20:37:34 +0100, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have (again) hacked together a minimal demo of a multilanguage portal.
>>>>This is not for its good looks but for the function it provides.
>>>>
>>>>To be amazed by it, dial
>>>>   http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/portal.php
>>>>
>>>>The page is generated from two local files containing the text and the
>>>>article numbers, respectively. Calling the script with
>>>>   http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/portal.php?update
>>>>will update the local files from online files, which are hardcoded into
>>>>the script. The article number file, which would normally be generated
>>>>automatically once a day, is at
>>>>   http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/num.txt
>>>>and the text, to be editable for all, is at
>>>>   http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PortalText
>>>>
>>>>Based on these files, and on your browser settings, it will highlight
>>>>what *might* be your favourite language(s). If you set multiple
>>>>languages in your browser, it will highlight them all. If your browser
>>>>sets different weights for these languages, they will appear in
>>>>different shades of grey.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, there is no other layout whatsoever. Don't complain. Web designers
>>>>to the rescue!
>>>>
>>>>Magnus
>>>>
>>>>P.S.: Script is in CVS HEAD; "portal.php" in maintenance
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Ronald Chmara

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: com

body:
On Jan 9, 2005, at 1:45 AM, Pawe? 'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:
> MW> No specific
> MW> country URL should redirect to a specific Wikipedia.
> What if a country is monolingual?

Are there countries which outlaw any speakers of *any other language*,
from residing in that country?

-Bop


from_name: Arwel Parry

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: The irritation of a server being blocked through
	the	actions of another

body:
In message <20050108165903.93737.qmail at web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
Robert Brookes
<the_robert_brookes-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> writes
>One assumes that Arwel Parry was acting in good faith when he blocked
>IP 198.54.202.242. Sadly that is the IP of a server and thus will
>affect a large number of people if they happen to be members of
>Wikipedia. Surely there is a more technically precise manner in which
>to block vandals without blocking members who actually login to edit
>Wikipedia?

I certainly was, and note that this IP had already received 5 warnings
against vandalism in recent months. Sorry for the inconvenience.

It would be helpful if you could supply ranges of any server IP
addresses you know, so they could be added to the list displayed on the
"block user" screen so we know to go easy on the perpetrators. As it
happens, David had unblocked the address about 10 minutes before I got
your email, but I couldn't find this address on "whois" when I used Sam
Spade, so I still don't know which ISP the address belongs to.

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/


body:
NSK (nsk2 at wikinerds.org) [050109 02:01]:
> On Saturday 08 January 2005 16:52, Arkady Rose wrote:

> > How many articles are there in the German WP? How many in the
> > Spanish one? Could it be that emphasis is according to total number
> > of articles rather than any (potentially mistaken) perceived bias?

> The current wikipedia.org portal explains (in English) that the order is
> according to the number of articles of each Wikipedia. I find no language or
> cultural discrimination in wikipedia.org, except for the fact that using the
> English word "articles" and not an icon or image is itself discriminatory.

The English word 'articles' is problematic, I agree - as, more so, are
the links "Complete list . Multilingual coordination . Start a Wikipedia in
another language".

I'm not sure of an icon that would mean "articles" *blindingly obviously*,
which it would need to in order to be less worse than having it in English.
Even less so for those three other links. Also, what would you use for the
alt= or title= text?

The portal page could do with some links on the left, as per the Monobook
skin - specifically to meta, wikimediafoundation and probably to the other
projects. If someone who can edit protected pages on meta could please do
this ...

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: com

body:
On Jan 9, 2005, at 2:32 AM, Pawe? 'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:
> RC> Are there countries which outlaw any speakers of *any other
> language*,
> RC> from residing in that country?
> RC> -Bop
> Maybe, but I'm talking about countries where there is only one
> language native to that country.

Personally, I find the concept of "native language for a country" to be
something of a broken, and archaic, concept. Languages have never been
defined by rigid lines drawn on a battlefield, or defined by those who
lived in a land 200 years ago. Very few countries (if any?) have had
the same lines for as long as their language has been  "native", in a
long term sense. Can you think of any "countries" which have kept the
same language for the last 4000 years, without changing their language?

Another point:
If an english tourist is traveling in Poland or the Ukraine, but
chooses to write wikipedia articles on the road, should they be
compelled to see a website that they cannot understand, before they can
get to a website that they do understand? While some countries may have
an official "native" language, it does not follow that all people who
are writing articles from a given country prefer to (or can) speak the
local language.

-Bop


from_name: John Lee

body:
csherlock at ljh.com.au wrote:

> I would also like to know why this was changed. It's the first I've
> heard of it!
>
> TSBDY
>
> Mark Pellegrini wrote:
>
>> I'd like to start out by noting that www.wikipedia.org no longer
>> redirects
>> to the english
>> wikipedia's main page. Instead, it's been turned into a replica of the
>> language template.
>> Deeper links ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/name_of_article ) still work,
>> but the
>> main page
>> does not.
>>
>> First of all, this is a MAJOR, MAJOR change and was totally
>> unannounced. Nor
>> did anyone in the community get a chance to object before it was put
>> into
>> place.
>> (Because I suspect there would have been a major outcry)
>>
>> Second of all, I cannot fathom why the this was changed. By now,
>> there's a
>> huge
>> inertia behind the fact that www.wikipeda.org links to the english main
>> page.
>> This is going to break *MANY* links, bookmarks, etc. We (the english
>> Wikipedia) are
>> goings to lose significant number of potential contributors because
>> of this.
>>
>> Why the hell was this changed? Why was no one told before hand, or even
>> afterward?
>>
>> --Mark
>
These changes were made after some discussion on Wikipedia-l, but that's
still not the same as talking to those who will be affected.

John Lee
([[User:Johnleemk]])


body:
On Jan 9, 2005, at 2:46 AM, Jens Ropers wrote:
> I still think flags/images are a generally preferable solution. Yes,
> there would be fights over, say, Chinese and the flag of the PR of
> China. Or over English and using a US flag. But I think the entire
> Wikipedia concept shows that risking it, doing it anyway and letting
> the wiki process do its magic can solve these issues -- and it's
> better than having a dull text-only page forever.

The great thing about open source is learning from others.

Check the PHP archives to see the flambe-fest about flags, language
jumping, etc... they've been sorting this out for ages.

-Bop


from_name: Jens Ropers

body:
On 7 Jan 2005, at 19:20, Anthere wrote:
>> Regarding language settings, isn't it possible to have a portal
>> automatically redirect to the appropriate language subdomain based on
>> these?
>
> Not really actually.
>
> Many editors appropriate languages are multiple.

Excellent point, strongly seconded.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

PS:
Besides: Anything to defeat automagic''osis'' (which is a creepy
disease genetically engineered and spread by the Illuminati in order to
strip away all human potential for choice. ;-)


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Mark-
> Why the hell was this changed? Why was no one told before hand, or even
> afterward?

Making www.wikipedia.org a multilingual portal has been suggested by many
different people ever since the creation of new languages besides English.
I point you, for example, to this summary by Elian written in October
2002, where a large number of people favored a multilingual portal:

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2002-October/024522.html

The change from www.wikipedia.org to en.wikipedia.org was made in part to
accommodate any future mulitilingual portal, and if you browse around
Meta, you'll find several proposals for such a portal.

Not discriminating in favor of or against any particular widely spoken
language is an important part of Wikimedia's mission. The fact that
www.wikipedia.org redirected to the English Wikipedia has, for many, been
a long-standing violation of this principle.

Partially in response, the English Wikipedia has in the past spent
considerable energy on making the other languages more visible on the Main
Page. Now that www.wikipedia.org is a portal, we can dare to make
en.wikipedia.org a little more English-centric.

Why has the creation of the portal taken so long? Mostly because nobody
wanted to make a decision about what the portal would look like. With
Tim's solution, which is editable through Meta, the community can work
this out over time.

Regards,

Erik


body:
On 8 Jan 2005, at 17:28, Sean Barrett wrote:

> Jean-Baptiste Soufron stated for the record:
>>>
>>> If Wikipedia does not change its attitudes, it will eventually die
>>> from brain
>>> drain: New, more expertise-friendly and intellectual wikis will
>>> emerge and
>>> WP's knowledgeable users will just immigrate there.
>> Why would it die from brain drain when every facts are showing that
>> wikipedia is currently ATTRACTING more and more brains ?
>
> Wishful thinking on NSK's part -- he has decided that Wikipedia should
> die, because he doesn't like it.

<slagging>
No, no. It's not that he doesn't like it ''in principle''. He loves
''the idea'' so much, he wishes he'd had it ''first'' -- and he'd do
anything to make his own MediaWiki install catch up with and overtake
Wikipedia. (Am I right not, NSK? ;-) Could take some time though, I
reckon.
</slagging>

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


body:
Ok lads (and lasses).

I've now given the current portal page at http://www.wikipedia.org/ a
couple'a fancy clickable flags.

I DO NOT mean to forestall any work Magnus might be doing (was not
really aware of that at the time I did the flag stuff as I found it
''so'' interesting, I didn't even check my email. At any rate, it seems
that Magnus' work so far has been more of a technical nature -- maybe
things can sort of be fused?

I've explained what I've done on the talk page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:
Www.wikipedia.org_portal#Redesign_with_flags

(If there is another way than the fairly roundabout way I've chosen to
get these flags to be clickable links (w/o actual HTML access), then
please tell me.)

I'm currently thinking about further improvements, e.g. giving the 10
000 - 50 000 WPs 20x30 pixel inline image flags as well, but on the
other hand I'm a bit weary about putting any more work in considering
that an overhaul of the current (provisional?) portal page seems to be
on the horizon. (Markus? Any comment from you there?) I would hate to
do lots of stuff and see it all end up in the dustbin. But prolly this
depends on community consensus as well... Please discuss, I don't want
to be doing stuff that nobody wants. Are the flags a good idea? Are we
moving the right way, etc., etc.

NB: Can some admin read that and delete some of the images as mentioned
there? Thanks.

((Again -- everybody: the Wikipedia home page can --currently, at
least-- be edited at:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_portal
Har har! It is such a TRIP to be editing Wikipedia's home page. I am a
SUCH power-hungry gobshite, I'll tell yer.))

Thanks and regards,

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


body:
This is an idea for making an icon for "Complete list of languages". I
may do this myself if people like it and if no one else does it (and IF
I get around to it/can be arsed):

- select a bunch of Wikipedias at random from the Complete list of
languages.
- look up flags corresponding to each laguage (Drop from the list any
Wikipedias selected where there isn't an unambiguous flag.)
- make small 30x20 inline image size pictures from the flags
- arrange these pictures in random order on a line with an ellipsis at
the end (signifying "there's more")

This should look like this

[X] [X] [X] [X] [X] [X] [X] [X] ...

I reckon something along these lines would make a pretty good and
unambiguous image to use on http://www.wikipedia.org instead of the
English phrase "Complete list of languages".

Comments?


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: automated email system needed to thank donors

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

NSK wrote:
<snip>
> I personally hate automated emailing. All new members of the Wikinerds
> Community receive a personal welcome email or message from me, typed by me,
> and everytime it is a different one. Every person is happy to be unique and
> this uniqueness must be reaffirmed in every communication.
>
> When I donate to a project I expect not a machine, but a real human to thank
> me. There are many Wikipedians in your project and I am sure that it is
> possible to find willing Wikipedians to write short "thank you" messages to
> the donors. The messages, however, should not be send from the Wikipedians
> but by an automated software system or a trusted administrator (who will also
> moderate the messages), for the protection of the donors' privacy.

So you are volunteer to moderate emails ...

Manually sending emails to hundred of people is clearly not an option.

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
"This signature is a virus. Copy me in yours to spread it."
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFB4KhipmyHQ2O4INERAgNjAKDcCQ8fEPc2huVu41vKXSESXhxgtQCgn4Rg
cbilVY4cuCxR/gaAGOAOky8=
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body:
Daniel Mayer (maveric149 at yahoo.com) [050109 03:28]:
> --- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:

> > Basically, not making it en-only was so OBVIOUSLY the right thing (because,
> > ahh, it isn't en-only - en's front page is en.wikipedia.org) that people
> > just went 'w00t!' and dived right in.

> I'm well aware of that and completely agree. I just don't like the fact that we
> went live with a lame solution before developing something good. I know that
> wikiwiki has always been cart-before-horse, but this is *very* visible real
> estate.

There is that. But it's improved noticeably over the last 24 hours and I
expect shall continue to do so in rapid order.

Still need someone to put up the Japanese version of "The Free
Encyclopedia" ...

- d.


body:
Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050109 04:08]:
> On 8 Jan 2005, at 4:59 pm, Robert Brookes wrote:

> >One assumes that Arwel Parry was acting in good faith when he blocked
> >IP 198.54.202.242. Sadly that is the IP of a server and thus will
> >affect a large number of people if they happen to be members of
> >Wikipedia. Surely there is a more technically precise manner in which
> >to block vandals without blocking members who actually login to edit
> >Wikipedia?

> Is it possible to code MediaWiki so you could block IP addresses with
> exception to designated users.

Now unblocked. It should also be possible theoretically for Mediawiki to do
a DNS and whois lookup first, so you can tell if it's likely to be a
dialup, a DSL or the proxy for a lot of people.

- d.


from_name: rose.parks at att.net

subject: [Foundation-l] Quarto II Apologies - sort of

body:
Sj-

     I do apologize for claiming that Quarto II was on the foundation website. I did find it on meta. There is a lot more content here now.
     I have been copyediting a paper copy of an earlier version. Do you want me to continue or not. For this amount of content some assistance would help.
     As I said earlier, if you are going to move it to foundation, I have to confirm my password. I am listed there as an editor. Also, I could really use an update on what has been going on.

                    As Ever,

                         Ruth Ifcher


body:
Someone has now removed all the flags (without explanatory comment).
Anthere has left a message in talk, making the point that flags
represent countries, not languages.
I've replied on talk
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Www.wikipedia.org_portal#Flags):

Quite true, however for most (if not all) languages, there is a flag
that is commonly understood to symbolize the language as well
(depending on context). No other symbols exist that so clearly and
graphically identify the respective languages. And I thing it having
the instant visual indentification that you can get with images is
worthwhile. That said, someone has removed the flags now (without
explanatory comment) and I'm taking my time about reverting, because I
believe community consensus will decide this one.

So what do people think? Is it just me to find the version with flags (
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Www.wikipedia.org_portal&oldid=88465 should give you a vague
idea) more appealing?

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

On 9 Jan 2005, at 04:14, Jens Ropers wrote:

> Ok lads (and lasses).
>
> I've now given the current portal page at http://www.wikipedia.org/ a
> couple'a fancy clickable flags.
>
> I DO NOT mean to forestall any work Magnus might be doing (was not
> really aware of that at the time I did the flag stuff as I found it
> ''so'' interesting, I didn't even check my email. At any rate, it
> seems that Magnus' work so far has been more of a technical nature --
> maybe things can sort of be fused?
>
> I've explained what I've done on the talk page:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:
> Www.wikipedia.org_portal#Redesign_with_flags
>
> (If there is another way than the fairly roundabout way I've chosen to
> get these flags to be clickable links (w/o actual HTML access), then
> please tell me.)
>
> I'm currently thinking about further improvements, e.g. giving the 10
> 000 - 50 000 WPs 20x30 pixel inline image flags as well, but on the
> other hand I'm a bit weary about putting any more work in considering
> that an overhaul of the current (provisional?) portal page seems to be
> on the horizon. (Markus? Any comment from you there?) I would hate to
> do lots of stuff and see it all end up in the dustbin. But prolly this
> depends on community consensus as well... Please discuss, I don't want
> to be doing stuff that nobody wants. Are the flags a good idea? Are we
> moving the right way, etc., etc.
>
> NB: Can some admin read that and delete some of the images as
> mentioned there? Thanks.
>
> ((Again -- everybody: the Wikipedia home page can --currently, at
> least-- be edited at:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_portal
> Har har! It is such a TRIP to be editing Wikipedia's home page. I am a
> SUCH power-hungry gobshite, I'll tell yer.))
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
On 8 Jan 2005, at 18:32, Scott Nelson wrote:

>>> I really can not imagine many flame wars occuring for
>>> "non-notable" poeple. Everyone has got an opinion on <insert world
>>> leader here> or <insert any war here>, but does any one really have
>>> strong feelings on bob black who died on 11/09?

Not trying to be a smart-aleck, but I can *easily* imagine flamewars
over entirely non-notable people -- flamewars perpetuated by the very
people and people that know them. Because Bob drools over Jane and Jane
thinks Bob is a Jerk and Jane's brother is dating Bob's sister and Bob
can't stand Jane's brother's guts. Now Jane is leaning into Bob's
Wikipeople entry and Bob is eager to let the world know that..., etc.
etc. etc.
Ad infinitum et ad nauseam.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


body:
d/thing it/

On 9 Jan 2005, at 05:27, Jens Ropers wrote:

> Someone has now removed all the flags (without explanatory comment).
> Anthere has left a message in talk, making the point that flags
> represent countries, not languages.
> I've replied on talk
> (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Www.wikipedia.org_portal#Flags):
>
> Quite true, however for most (if not all) languages, there is a flag
> that is commonly understood to symbolize the language as well
> (depending on context). No other symbols exist that so clearly and
> graphically identify the respective languages. And I
think having the instant visual indentification that you can get with
images is worthwhile. That said, someone has removed the flags now
(without explanatory comment) and I'm taking my time about reverting,
because I believe community consensus will decide this one.
>
> So what do people think? Is it just me to find the version with flags
> (
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?
> title=Www.wikipedia.org_portal&oldid=88465 should give you a vague
> idea) more appealing?
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: NSK

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: com

body:
On Sunday 09 January 2005 05:57, Tim Starling wrote:
> wikipedia.co.uk -> en.wikipedia.org

There is no reason to have co.uk redirect to .org because English is not the
only language spoken in the United Kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_Kingdom

Please either create a special portal for co.uk or make it redirect to
wikipedia.org

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org