from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
Erik wrote:
>All I see is a row of buttons and a line under it that says "Click a
>button to see an example for this formatting" - that seems fairly
>obvious to me.

Of course it does. You wrote it.

>Let's judge this feature based on more feedback than just yours.

I'm *not* the only one who had a similar complaint.

>I think your arguments smack of techno-elitism, "I learned wiki markup
>the hard way, so everyone else has to as well!"

No - my arguments are from the perspective of a person who is using the
feature for the first time. Hardly techno-elitism.

A developer who engages in a CVS commit war in opposition to the consensus of
the other developers due to the fact that he wants to push through a largely
untested feature is techno-elitism.

A developer who does not listen to users is techno-elitism.

A developer who thinks that his feature is fine, but it is the users who are
are wrong is techno-elitism.

>I would have loved to have even such a simple help toolbar when I
>started using Wikipedia. Yes, wiki markup is simple, but it's good to
>have learning aids.

Not when that aid looks like something else and causes confusion.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: uninvited at nerstrand.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: MNH, again

body:
Have we made any determination whether or not MNH is a previously-banned user?  His writing style and modus operandi remind me of a user that has been banned several times.

UninvitedCompany


subject: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again

body:
Sannse wrote:
>It has.  Teresa has invited MrMH to take part in a mediation
>(with admirable politeness).  He refused and so Jussi-Ville
>Heiskanen approached him as a member of the mediation
>committee.  He hasn't yet responded directly to that
>approach (although he may have indirectly).  Let's give
>him a little time to respond - then we will look at what needs
>to be done next (for example if he responds positively a
>mediator will have to be agreed and so on).

All the more reason to turn our submission standards page into policy and link
it from edit windows. Then everybody who edits will have agreed to submit to
our conflict resolution process. If MrNH then outright refuses to enter
mediation, then he will have broke the contract he signed, and can be safely
banned.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:
>Well, we could have a summary procedure for egregious cases,
>couldn't call it Kangaroo Court, maybe Duck Court. It could be
>evoked by Ed Poor and a few others of his status, say also Daniel
>Mayers. They could then briefly consider the matter and ban the
>offender until the matter could be considered by the mediation and
>arbitration committees. Kind of like a preliminary injunction. Grounds
>would be the likelyhood of permanent damage to the project resulting
>from serious offenses combined with a general refusal to listen.

I wouldn't leave it to Ed or I. I would feel far more comfortable with a
quorum of the arbitration committee. In these cases, we could impose a
temporary ban pending a full arbitration process on what to do next. But IMO,
we cannot do such a thing until the submission standards go live on edit
windows.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration progress report #1

body:
> Why the secrecy?
>
> Best,
> Sascha Noyes

Lazyness, mostly.  We're just send the mail to a list
of people, no real formal mailing list yet.

LDan

__________________________________
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list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] the tool bar : disable it in some browsers (or fix

body:
Erik wrote:
>Daniel-
>> A developer who engages in a CVS commit war in opposition to the
>> consensus of the other developers
>
>That's utter and complete bullshit. I'm very disappointed - why do you
>have to resort to lies to make your point?

Wasn't there a consensus on the IRC channel that the feature was not ready for
immediate implementation?

Do you deny that you then deleted Tim's site-wide switch that turned your
feature off?

I heard about this *after* I wrote an email defending you and your actions.
That disappointed me.

But I see that things seem to have settled down some, so I apologize for
implicating that the CVS commit war was ongoing.

-- mav


from_name: KNOTT, T

subject: [WikiEN-l] Warning shot - will it work ?

body:
How will we know when a limited edit user has gone anon ? Even if we
suspect that IP such and such is user so and so we couldn't prove it was
them. IPs  identify the machine not the user.

Theresa

-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus Manske [mailto:magnus.manske at web.de]
Sent: 21 January 2004 13:50
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again

I just had this idea (not necessarily related to MNH):
As a "warning shot" from one of out countless committees, a
"problematic" user could be limited to a fixed number of edits per day.

That way, he can
* either waste these edits on stuff that gets reverted anyway,
* or use them more wisely,
* or leave if he doesn't think he can limit himself to "decent" edits

As example, I'd say 10 edits per day, for one week. Just to have some
figures.

Circumventing these measures by creating an alternate user name or going

anon will result in immediate banning.

Magnus
(who thinks a little discipline won't harm the project;-)

Fred Bauder wrote:

>The members of the mediation and arbitration committees need to get on
the
>stick. You can keep the pressure on...
>
>Fred
>
>
>
>>From: "KNOTT, T" <TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk>
>>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:49:50 -0000
>>To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again
>>
>>What do we need to do to get the arbitration process sorted out
quickly?
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Quacks Like a Duck

body:
Wes yes I know we'll recognise them fairly quickly. But I suspect that
most users under this sort of ban will flout it very quickly. I suspect
that we be spending much of our time catching them out. Also 10 edits a
day is plenty enough to be rude about people. What's to stop them
posting huge long rants where they insult a number of users at once?

I don't want to put too much of a downer on the idea. It might make some
people shape up. It's certainly nice to give some sort of warning to
give them a chance.

Theresa

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Bauder [mailto:fredbaud at ctelco.net]
Sent: 21 January 2004 14:27
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Quacks Like a Duck

When a quacking duck flys into view, one knows.

Fred

> From: "KNOTT, T" <TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:12:57 -0000
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Warning shot - will it work ?
>
> How will we know when a limited edit user has gone anon ? Even if we
> suspect that IP such and such is user so and so we couldn't prove it
was
> them. IPs  identify the machine not the user.
>
> Theresa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Manske [mailto:magnus.manske at web.de]
> Sent: 21 January 2004 13:50
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again
>
> I just had this idea (not necessarily related to MNH):
> As a "warning shot" from one of out countless committees, a
> "problematic" user could be limited to a fixed number of edits per
day.
>
> That way, he can
> * either waste these edits on stuff that gets reverted anyway,
> * or use them more wisely,
> * or leave if he doesn't think he can limit himself to "decent" edits
>
> As example, I'd say 10 edits per day, for one week. Just to have some
> figures.
>
> Circumventing these measures by creating an alternate user name or
going
>
> anon will result in immediate banning.
>
> Magnus
> (who thinks a little discipline won't harm the project;-)
>
>
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>> The members of the mediation and arbitration committees need to get
on
> the
>> stick. You can keep the pressure on...
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: "KNOTT, T" <TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk>
>>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:49:50 -0000
>>> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again
>>>
>>> What do we need to do to get the arbitration process sorted out
> quickly?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Interested in exchanging links with  wikipedia.org

body:
> Hello,
>
> I am interested in exchanging links with your
> website wikipedia.org. My site offers a large
> variety of baseball bats and other baseball
> equiptment.
>
> My sites information is as follows:
>
> Title: USA Baseball Bats & Supply
> Url: http://store.usa-baseballbats.com
>
> or here is the html for the link to my site:
>
>
 href="http://store.usa-baseballbats.com">USA
> Baseball Bats & Supply

>
> Upon response to this email I will place a link to
> wikipedia.org on http://store.thepromotionspot.com
>
> This site is a new site and already has a 8PR and
> receives allot of traffic through search engines.
>
> I look foward to working with you!
> Jessica Hartman
>
> P.S. If you do not wish to recieve link exchange
> requests please reply with remove in the subject

As far as I can tell, Wikipedia isn't looking into
advertizing. We don't need anyone to publicise us and
we have no real need to have a link to us on your
website. At this time, I don't think we would accept
such an offer. You are wecome to write an article
about yourself on Wikipedia, so long as it is strictly
informational and not promotional.

LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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from_name: Mills, Billy

subject: [WikiEN-l] Quacks Like a Duck

body:
KNOTT, T wrote:

>What's to stop them
>posting huge long rants where they insult a number of users at once?

Maybe an immediate ban if they do so?

Billy

-----Original Message-----
From: KNOTT, T [mailto:TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk]
Sent: 21 January 2004 14:35
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Quacks Like a Duck

Wes yes I know we'll recognise them fairly quickly. But I suspect that
most users under this sort of ban will flout it very quickly. I suspect
that we be spending much of our time catching them out. Also 10 edits a
day is plenty enough to be rude about people. What's to stop them
posting huge long rants where they insult a number of users at once?

I don't want to put too much of a downer on the idea. It might make some
people shape up. It's certainly nice to give some sort of warning to
give them a chance.

Theresa

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Bauder [mailto:fredbaud at ctelco.net]
Sent: 21 January 2004 14:27
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Quacks Like a Duck

When a quacking duck flys into view, one knows.

Fred

> From: "KNOTT, T" <TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:12:57 -0000
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Warning shot - will it work ?
>
> How will we know when a limited edit user has gone anon ? Even if we
> suspect that IP such and such is user so and so we couldn't prove it
was
> them. IPs  identify the machine not the user.
>
> Theresa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Manske [mailto:magnus.manske at web.de]
> Sent: 21 January 2004 13:50
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again
>
> I just had this idea (not necessarily related to MNH):
> As a "warning shot" from one of out countless committees, a
> "problematic" user could be limited to a fixed number of edits per
day.
>
> That way, he can
> * either waste these edits on stuff that gets reverted anyway,
> * or use them more wisely,
> * or leave if he doesn't think he can limit himself to "decent" edits
>
> As example, I'd say 10 edits per day, for one week. Just to have some
> figures.
>
> Circumventing these measures by creating an alternate user name or
going
>
> anon will result in immediate banning.
>
> Magnus
> (who thinks a little discipline won't harm the project;-)
>
>
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>> The members of the mediation and arbitration committees need to get
on
> the
>> stick. You can keep the pressure on...
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: "KNOTT, T" <TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk>
>>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:49:50 -0000
>>> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again
>>>
>>> What do we need to do to get the arbitration process sorted out
> quickly?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:
> Well, we could have a summary procedure for
> egregious cases, couldn't call
> it Kangaroo Court, maybe Duck Court. It could be
> evoked by Ed Poor and a few
> others of his status, say also Daniel Mayers. They
> could then briefly
> consider the matter and ban the offender until the
> matter could be
> considered by the mediation and arbitration
> committees. Kind of like a
> preliminary injunction. Grounds would be the
> likelyhood of permanent damage
> to the project resulting from serious offenses
> combined with a general
> refusal to listen.
>
> Fred

Do we really need temporary bans? We didn't have the
need for them before and they would be very damaging
to the Wiki principle. Remember: Wikipedia is a Wiki
Encyclopedia, not a courtroom. There's no real danger
of letting someone off, aside from the chance that
they might vandalize a few pages, something which is
easily reversible. In the past, we've had a lot of
trouble with unilateral bans, and they have always
been condemned after the fact by almost everyone.

LDan

__________________________________
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from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.comAssociate
	sprogram - your application approved]

body:
b schewek wrote:
> Many things are useful to people.  But WP's purpose is to be useful
> in a specific way, and one would have to argue that pointing to a
> book (or whatever) seller enhances this usefulness.

I think that's right.  And, for me, the connection between the
specific way in which we seek to be useful (educating people on all
manner of things) and the value of a link to a place where people
might get more information, either by borrowing from a library or
purchasing a book, is practically self-evident.

> Well, if there is no revenue it means there was no use which means
> we can remove the link. (Just kidding.)

:-) Well, there were a fair number of clickthroughs, just no sales.

I know I never buy a book from anywhere without reading the reviews on
Amazon first.

--Jimbo


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again

body:
I just had this idea (not necessarily related to MNH):
As a "warning shot" from one of out countless committees, a
"problematic" user could be limited to a fixed number of edits per day.
That way, he can
* either waste these edits on stuff that gets reverted anyway,
* or use them more wisely,
* or leave if he doesn't think he can limit himself to "decent" edits

As example, I'd say 10 edits per day, for one week. Just to have some
figures.

Circumventing these measures by creating an alternate user name or going
anon will result in immediate banning.

Magnus
(who thinks a little discipline won't harm the project;-)

Fred Bauder wrote:

>The members of the mediation and arbitration committees need to get on the
>stick. You can keep the pressure on...
>
>Fred
>
>
>
>>From: "KNOTT, T" <TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk>
>>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:49:50 -0000
>>To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again
>>
>>What do we need to do to get the arbitration process sorted out quickly?
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.com Associates
	program - your application approved]

body:
I think this action was brilliant.  Thanks!

Peter Bartlett wrote:

>
> Karl wrote:
> >> 4. Link to them, make them pay, add a link to
> >> <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html> and let the informed
> >> reader decide for himself. ???
>
> >Adding such a link could be a way out of the mess.
>
> I added such a link to
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Book_sources .
> This is the first time in a while I have Been Bold to such an extent. I
> welcome feedback/reversions/flames/expressions of delight at the wording
> I used.
>
> Pete
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Process (was: MNH)

body:
We all agreed to do this -- or Jimbo suggested this, I forget which:

1. Make a good faith effort for mediation. That's what the Mediation
Committee was formed to do.

2. If this results in a good solution, announce the solution and that's
the end of it.

3. In case mediation fails, the Arbitration Committee will do its thing
and render a decision. Hang 'em at sunrise or slap his wrists: i.e.,
permanent hard-ban, temporary ban, edit quota, whatever they decide.

4. If this works, that's probably the end of it. (Reincarnation to evade
a ban is usually handled by developers examining IP logs, etc.)

5. A "banned" user can appeal to Jimbo, who may veto the Arbitrators'
decision.

We are still at step #1 on MNH. It's our first case, and we want to do
this right: please give us extra time.

Ed Poor
Member
Mediation Committee


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Grounds for temporary ban

body:
Grounds would be the
likelyhood of permanent damage
to the project resulting from serious offenses
combined with a general
refusal to listen.

> From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:41:29 -0800 (PST)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court
>

>
> Do we really need temporary bans? We didn't have the
> need for them before and they would be very damaging
> to the Wiki principle. Remember: Wikipedia is a Wiki
> Encyclopedia, not a courtroom. There's no real danger
> of letting someone off, aside from the chance that
> they might vandalize a few pages, something which is
> easily reversible. In the past, we've had a lot of
> trouble with unilateral bans, and they have always
> been condemned after the fact by almost everyone.


body:
There is some discussion of that. Only reason I can think of is if someone
using their own name (or identifiable) was so libeled that they might find
grounds to sue.

Fred

> From: Sascha Noyes <sascha at pantropy.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:47:03 -0500
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] re: Arbitration progress report #1
>
> On Wednesday 21 January 2004 04:47 pm, Martin Harper wrote:
>> Email gives a nice fast response, and one of us happened to have the
>> facilities to quickly set up a mailing list. It's not necessarilly intended
>> as a long term solution.
>
> I'm happy to hear that, but why the "necessarilly"? Are there any good reasons
> for keeping the proceedings of the arbitration committee secret?
>
> Best,
> Sascha Noyes
> --
> Please encrypt all email. Public key available from
> www.pantropy.net/snoyes.asc
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Kill the puppy (was: Quacks Like a Duck)

body:
--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> Well, them flying ducks just say fuck off when you
> try that.
>
> Fred

Remember that we haven't had this overwhelming need
for binding arbitration in the past. Mediation will
help, but when you get into arbitration, you start
banning too many people.

LDan

__________________________________
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from_name: Sascha Noyes

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Process (was: MNH)

body:
On Wednesday 21 January 2004 03:09 pm, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> We all agreed to do this -- or Jimbo suggested this, I forget which:
>
> 1. Make a good faith effort for mediation. That's what the Mediation
> Committee was formed to do.
>
> 2. If this results in a good solution, announce the solution and that's
> the end of it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: There is no "solution" to come up
with. The primary point is that MNH must abide by the "no personal attacks"
policy/rule/guideline/whatever.
>
> We are still at step #1 on MNH. It's our first case, and we want to do
> this right: please give us extra time.

No we're not. See above.

Ceterum censeo, Carthaginem esse delendum.

Best,
Sascha Noyes
--
Please encrypt all email. Public key available from
www.pantropy.net/snoyes.asc


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.com Associat
	esprogram - your application approved]

body:
I'm no Amazon lover, but anything that encourages people to buy and read
books is a GOOD THING, IMHO.

Billy Mills

DISCLAIMER: This message has been scanned by Norton Antivirus (using the
latest definitions) for all known Viruses.
The information in this message is confidential and is intended solely for
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from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

references:
<200401192115.57674.maveric149@yahoo.com>	<shr7xv40sp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>	<20040120212107.GC19125@joey.bomis.com>	<shfze93okn.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20040121141647.GH6842@joey.bomis.com>

body:
Hello,

Jimmy Wales wrote:

> It seems to me that for Amazon haters, the following ranking makes the
> most sense...
>
> 1.  Don't link to them at all.  BEST
>
> 2.  Link to them, but make them pay.  2nd BEST
>
> 3.  Link to them for free.  WORST by FAR

4. Link to them, make them pay, add a link to
<http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html> and let the informed reader
decide for himself. ???

see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Buchhandlungen

greetings,
elian


from_name: Andreas Hoerstemeier

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.com
 Associatesprogram - your application approved]

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

> Just for the record, after nearly 24 hours with the link on the book
> sources page, sales and revenue to us are $0.00.  It's a bit early to
> tell, but I think it's fairly clear that this (linking for money) is
> going to be a complete nonissue anyway.
Well, that's not too much surprising, as Amazon only add the money when
the products are shipped. So unless someone ordered a book yesterday
which shipped immidiatly you cannot see anything yet - only in the
traffic list you can see how many orders were created so far.


body:
On Wednesday 21 January 2004 03:58 pm, Martin Harper wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> We've been spending the last few days getting in contact, organising
> ourselves, getting acquainted, and informally exploring the various issues
> that may arise. For the time being we're using a private mailing list for
> most of our discussions.

Why the secrecy?

Best,
Sascha Noyes
--
Please encrypt all email. Public key available from
www.pantropy.net/snoyes.asc


subject: [WikiEN-l] Trolls, how to feed them: not

body:
I'm losing patience with trolls.

If it's not a borderline case or a misunderstanding or the outgrowth of
some longstanding POV dispute, but a clear case of someone just making
trouble to get attention...

With a username like The Fellowship of the Troll, tFotT seems like a
clone of Entmoot of Trolls. Both names are an obvious Lord of the Rings
reference, and both users act the same: obnoxiously. He's even managed
to tick off the mild-mannered Pakaran and the unflappable Angela.
Eloquence gave him a ban warning.

I don't care if the ISP is different. The behavior is the same.

Let's not make this the first case for Mediation or Arbitration. I
hereby request Jimbo to contact this guy directly and lay down the law
to him.

Ed Poor


from_name: Delirium

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com:
	Amazon.com	Associatesprogram - your application approved]

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>b schewek wrote:
>
>
>>There has not been one reason given so far why WP should link to
>>booksellers in the first place.
>>
>>
>
>Well, that's a conversation that we've had more than once, see.
>
>It's clearly useful to many readers.  It's not evil to buy books.
>It's not even evil to sell books.
>
>Let's say we have an article about Stephen King (we do).  And an
>article about one of his books (we do).  Why should we not link to a
>page that lets people know how they can do more research by actually
>obtaining the book?  The user might want to buy it, or borrow it from
>a library, or read reviews of it, etc.
>
>
While I don't oppose linking to booksellers, I'd have to say I'm
unconvinced it's really all that useful to our readers.  Surely people
are aware of the fact that one might want to read books for various
reasons, and they likely are even aware of the fact that there are
several venues from which books may be acquired: there are libraries,
project gutenberg, online bookstores, local bookstores, and so on.  I
can see the usefulness in linking directly to a free online edition of
the book (project gutenberg, etc.), since that allows them to read it
with a simple click, but I don't really see the usefulness in linking to
online booksellers.  There are plenty of things besides books people can
purchase online as well, and we don't generally link them.

-Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] Quacks Like a Duck

body:
Rick wrote:
> That doesn't seem to be an option any longer.  No,
> instead, we're going to have a months-long runup to
> a mediation process, a months-long mediation
> process, a months-long runup to an arbitration
> process, a months-long arbitration process, and then
> maybe, just maybe, somebody will, someday when they
> get around to it, propose banning.
>
> RickK

I thought we were going to have somewhat unofficial
mediation, which is just talking, and then we go
through the old banning procedures if we felt we
needed to. The goal of this is to prevent banning, not
delay it, but if needed (eg. if there's lots of active
vandalization, not just an edit conflict), there might
be a ban instead of mediation.

LDan

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Quacks Like a Duck

body:
--- "Mills, Billy" <billy.mills at thomson.com> wrote:
> KNOTT, T wrote:
>
> >What's to stop them
> >posting huge long rants where they insult a number
> of users at once?
>
> Maybe an immediate ban if they do so?
>
> Billy

Just a rant isn't enough to ban someone. You need to
do something big, like vandalizing a bunch of pages or
making personal threats.

LDan

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from_name: Nathan Russell

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Poor, Edmund W wrote:
| I'm losing patience with trolls.
|
| If it's not a borderline case or a misunderstanding or the outgrowth of
| some longstanding POV dispute, but a clear case of someone just making
| trouble to get attention...
|
| With a username like The Fellowship of the Troll, tFotT seems like a
| clone of Entmoot of Trolls. Both names are an obvious Lord of the Rings
| reference, and both users act the same: obnoxiously. He's even managed
| to tick off the mild-mannered Pakaran and the unflappable Angela.
| Eloquence gave him a ban warning.
|
| I don't care if the ISP is different. The behavior is the same.

As long as we're on the subject, would you mind cross-checking the IPs
when you have a few free minutes.

If this is an *obvious* return of EoT, he can be banned without going to
Jimbo.

Thanks.

Nathan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFADu+/MUlnNfyqpaMRAomLAJ9WBWjYBHS0zVmwst9LdUu8x+1MwgCdF1Vr
24+GqhHQnWtrBnn03sfJ3bU=
=KIMO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Erik wrote:
>
>>I'd be more interested in hearing ways to make it more intuitive
>>than "turn it off for these browsers".

I like the toolbar, but I think it should only appear on browsers where
it works as supposed (and of course expert users should be able to
switch it off in their prefs).

> The 2) toobar is fatally flawed; as I said before it is a word processor-like
> toolbar that doesn't do what such a toolbar is expected to do. A static HTML
> table outside the wiki text area of an edit window with just the basics:
>
> Bold		''' ''''
> Italics 	'' ''
> Heading	== ==
>
> Would be far better than the 2) toolbar.

I think, this would clutter up the edit page too much. Most newbies
grasp the "easy" editing options very quickly, problems appear if they
want to do something more complicated - and this is stuff you can't
present on the edit page directly.
My other concern is that with the present learning model, newbies learn
far more than just "how do I make a text bold". they learn: with these
chars I make the '''article title''' in the introduction bold.

> I see no need to confuse newbies of non-mainstream browsers when there is an
> already existing link to editing help on every page.

Sansculotte of the German wikipedia recently proposed an improved
editing help. Instead of linking to one big page, he split it in several
links to our help pages on specific topics:
* text formatting
* creating links
* inserting images
* tables
* formulas with TeX

He placed these links on the right of the text box (maybe it better goes
in the navigation bar on the left side to save space). Ideally these
links open in an extra, smaller window with just the relevant help text
in it (please, no debates about "but they can use the back button").

In the long term we need IMO an own help-namespace with just the
technical stuff in it. This should be available for download and import
for other projects which use mediawiki.

greetings,
elian


body:
Fred Bauder wrote:
> Remains to be saw. I know I'm going to advocate
> slaps on the rist from time
> to time to git them dux attention/
>
> Fred

BTW, what's Wikinfo's policy on this?

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] English names

body:
Charles Matthews wrote:

>Ed Poor wrote
>
>
>>Gdansk doesn't "have an English name". It has an
>>
>>
>official Polish name, and it has also had a German
>name.
>
>Can't agree with that.  It was always called Dantzig in the past.  From the
>Lech Walesa/Solidarity period onwards it was called Gdansk very prominently.
>That's what we call it now.
>
>
Yes, but using Gdansk exclusively is sometimes a bit confusing in
historical context, especially when dealing with Germans (such as Arthur
Schopenhauer) who were from what they (and English-speakers at the time)
called "Danzig", since it is often referred to as Danzig in contemporary
historical works as well (modern biographies of Schopenhauer, for
example).  I think we should just say something like "German philosopher
from from Danzig (present-day Gdansk, Poland)", possibly with alternate
wording.

-Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] re: Arbitration progress report #1

body:
On Wednesday 21 January 2004 04:47 pm, Martin Harper wrote:
> Email gives a nice fast response, and one of us happened to have the
> facilities to quickly set up a mailing list. It's not necessarilly intended
> as a long term solution.

I'm happy to hear that, but why the "necessarilly"? Are there any good reasons
for keeping the proceedings of the arbitration committee secret?

Best,
Sascha Noyes
--
Please encrypt all email. Public key available from
www.pantropy.net/snoyes.asc


subject: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

body:
--- "Alex R." <alex756 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> I tend to agree with you Little Dan, most of the
> damage done
> can be rectified by reverting edits. Sure if someone
> is really
> destructive it might be a lot of edits, but then we
> have a list
> of all the contributions there only needs to be
> someone who
> is willing to revert them all.
>
> If you are too quick at banning someone you may not
> even
> have enough material to show that the person should
> not
> be allowed to contribute. better that they
> demonstrate their
> bad behaviour before they undergo the "arbitration"
> ordeal.
>
> There might be a really, really rare case that could
> be done
> by the Wikimedia board, you will notice that Art
> III: sec. 4.4. of
> the bylaws gives the Board of Trustees the right to
> suspend
> member privileges in the cases of misconduct.
> Someone would
> have to apply to the Board to get them to suspend
> the
> member in that case.  I guess you have to convince
> the Board
> members or make an application to them:
> http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/bylaws.pdf
>
> Alex756

Who's on the board of trustees?

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body:
--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> I'm losing patience with trolls.
>
> If it's not a borderline case or a misunderstanding
> or the outgrowth of
> some longstanding POV dispute, but a clear case of
> someone just making
> trouble to get attention...
>
> With a username like The Fellowship of the Troll,
> tFotT seems like a
> clone of Entmoot of Trolls. Both names are an
> obvious Lord of the Rings
> reference, and both users act the same: obnoxiously.
> He's even managed
> to tick off the mild-mannered Pakaran and the
> unflappable Angela.
> Eloquence gave him a ban warning.
>
> I don't care if the ISP is different. The behavior
> is the same.
>
> Let's not make this the first case for Mediation or
> Arbitration. I
> hereby request Jimbo to contact this guy directly
> and lay down the law
> to him.
>
> Ed Poor

This isn't what mediation and arbitration were
intended for. This should probably go to the normal
system of discussing it for a few days until a
consensus forms that it is the same person (or it
might not, but I think they are the same). Jimbo might
use his discresion on this, but that would be the
first time I can think of that he does something like
that without significant discussion.

LDan

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body:
Remains to be saw. I know I'm going to advocate slaps on the rist from time
to time to git them dux attention/

Fred

> From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:57:03 -0800 (PST)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Kill the puppy (was: Quacks Like a Duck)
>
>
> --- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>> Well, them flying ducks just say fuck off when you
>> try that.
>>
>> Fred
>
> Remember that we haven't had this overwhelming need
> for binding arbitration in the past. Mediation will
> help, but when you get into arbitration, you start
> banning too many people.
>
> LDan
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Gareth Owen

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski <taw at users.sf.net> writes:

> Accepting money from someone isn't a neutral act.

Who gives a monkeys?
The point of view of the Encyclopedia has to be neutral,
everything else is negotiable.  If we let amazon make editorial policy, thats
stupid, otherwise lets try and show Jimbo some latitude as he throws
increasingly large amounts of *his* *own* *money* at wikipedia
(which you seem happy to accept).

> Money does stink

Now who's being non-neutral.  Does money spent on AIDS research stink?
Does BOMIS spent on wikipedia servers stink too?  Which stinks worse?

Idiocies like this make me embarassed to be a liberal.
--
Gareth Owen
"And Cunct, please stop being such a prick."
                        -- wikipedia-l gains a new mantra (Wed Nov  6 2002)


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] English names

body:
Ed Poor wrote

>Gdansk doesn't "have an English name". It has an
official Polish name, and it has also had a German
name.

Can't agree with that.  It was always called Dantzig in the past.  From the
Lech Walesa/Solidarity period onwards it was called Gdansk very prominently.
That's what we call it now.

Charles


from_name: mark at kruegerbrothers.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "The amazon.com Problem"

body:
>From http://www.wikinfo.org/ which is very (very, very, ...) similar to
wikipedia (and whose articles often refer to WP as is source) the book
sources (via ISBN link as can be seen on the frontpage under "Interesting
new books") leave the user the decision about where to buy the book. There,
four sources are given (with the resp. ISBN links): AddALL, PriceSCAN,Barnes
& Noble, and - of course - Amazon.com.
http://www.wikinfo.org/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=0521365147
. One may arbitrarily add more sources (for those who want to have a really
competitive market).
Mark


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

references:
<200401192115.57674.maveric149@yahoo.com>
	<shr7xv40sp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20040120212107.GC19125@joey.bomis.com>
	<shfze93okn.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20040121141647.GH6842@joey.bomis.com>

body:
On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 06:16:47AM -0800, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> It seems to me that for Amazon haters, the following ranking makes the
> most sense...
>
> 1.  Don't link to them at all.  BEST
>
> 2.  Link to them, but make them pay.  2nd BEST
>
> 3.  Link to them for free.  WORST by FAR

Accepting money from someone isn't a neutral act.
Money does stink and 2 is the worst one.


subject: [WikiEN-l] English names

body:
> Yes, but to a stamp collecter it will always be Danzig.
>
> Fred

Right.  And I still have stamps from Nyasaland ...

Philately will get you nowhere, with me.

Charles


from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Time to clean out my closet.

body:
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote (In part):

> Sannse (did I misspell the username?) I know even less,
> except a vague, and I must claim irrelevant
> impression (no justification, please lambast me if it
> is crappy; I will be the last person to require definitive
> determination) that she is a female.

Gosh, with that build up I thought you were going to say you thought I was
an axe murderer! ;)

Yes, as Anthere said, I'm a woman.

I /am/ also rather obscure, partly I think because of my areas of interest
and partly because I tend to avoid conflict.  I guess joining the mediation
committee is risking a big change in the latter area.

Regards

sannse


from_name: Alex R.

subject: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

body:
I tend to agree with you Little Dan, most of the damage done
can be rectified by reverting edits. Sure if someone is really
destructive it might be a lot of edits, but then we have a list
of all the contributions there only needs to be someone who
is willing to revert them all.

If you are too quick at banning someone you may not even
have enough material to show that the person should not
be allowed to contribute. better that they demonstrate their
bad behaviour before they undergo the "arbitration" ordeal.

There might be a really, really rare case that could be done
by the Wikimedia board, you will notice that Art III: sec. 4.4. of
the bylaws gives the Board of Trustees the right to suspend
member privileges in the cases of misconduct. Someone would
have to apply to the Board to get them to suspend the
member in that case.  I guess you have to convince the Board
members or make an application to them:
http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/bylaws.pdf

Alex756

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

> Fred Bauder wrote:
> > Well, we could have a summary procedure for
> > egregious cases, couldn't call
> > it Kangaroo Court, maybe Duck Court. It could be
> > evoked by Ed Poor and a few
> > others of his status, say also Daniel Mayers. They
> > could then briefly
> > consider the matter and ban the offender until the
> > matter could be
> > considered by the mediation and arbitration
> > committees. Kind of like a
> > preliminary injunction. Grounds would be the
> > likelyhood of permanent damage
> > to the project resulting from serious offenses
> > combined with a general
> > refusal to listen.
> >
> > Fred
>
> Do we really need temporary bans? We didn't have the
> need for them before and they would be very damaging
> to the Wiki principle. Remember: Wikipedia is a Wiki
> Encyclopedia, not a courtroom. There's no real danger
> of letting someone off, aside from the chance that
> they might vandalize a few pages, something which is
> easily reversible. In the past, we've had a lot of
> trouble with unilateral bans, and they have always
> been condemned after the fact by almost everyone.
>
> LDan
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Banned for a Day

body:
I think sometimes a ban for a day may do more good than a ban for a year.

Fred

> From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:34:47 -0800 (PST)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Kill the puppy (was: Quacks Like a Duck)
>
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>> Remains to be saw. I know I'm going to advocate
>> slaps on the rist from time
>> to time to git them dux attention/
>>
>> Fred
>
> BTW, what's Wikinfo's policy on this?
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: David Friedland

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: the tool bar : disable it in some browsers (or fix

body:
OK. Well I'm another user and I tried it with three different browsers.
Unfortunately, it seems to be completely broken in my primary browser,
Safari, unless I use the debug menu to set the user-agent to Konq or Mac IE.

It seems to work correctly in the most recent Firebird build I have:
Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7a)
Gecko/20040118

It also correctly displays the "Click a button to get an example text"
bar in IE 5.2.3 for Mac OS X.

So I would suggest to make it do something sensible in Safari instead of
being a non-operative button bar. I surmise that since it is based on
the same code-base as Konqueror that it should have the same behavior on
both browsers. Other than that I can't say the feature shouldn't be
implemented.

However, I'm not in love with the icons. They look like buttons but
don't have a "pushed" state, which is bad. Also, most of the icons are
not universally recognizable and should be replaced with unambiguous
text. I'm sure someone spent a long time putting those icons together,
but I think most of the UI research shows that icon bars like that are
almost universally inscrutable.

- David [[User:Nohat]]


from_name: Graham Burnett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Enough is enough

body:
> > Mr-Natural-Health has indicated on Teresa Knott's Talk page that he has
no
> interest in participating in the Arbitration process. OK, now what? Is he
> going to get to continue to mess up article after article and call people
> names forever because nobody wants to do anything about him?
>
> It's still the *mediation* process at this point. We are still attempting
> to persuade him to try mediation - if that fails then I guess we will have
> to pass this over to the arbitration committee.
>
> This is where my pessimism starts rising.
>
> Regards
>
> sannse

Why is everybody tip-toeing around this arsehole? Surely enough is enough.
Sod 'mediation', if somebody was behaving like this in my local pub they'd
have been shown the door long ago.

Graham (Quercus robur)

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 08/01/2004


subject: [WikiEN-l] MNH, again

body:
RickK wrote:

> So, when is the so-called Mediation process going to start, and why hasn't
it already?
>
> RickK
>

It has.  Teresa has invited MrMH to take part in a mediation (with admirable
politeness).  He refused and so Jussi-Ville Heiskanen approached him as a
member of the mediation committee.  He hasn't yet responded directly to that
approach (although he may have indirectly).  Let's give him a little time to
respond - then we will look at what needs to be done next (for example if he
responds positively a mediator will have to be agreed and so on).

Regards

sannse


from_name: Rick

body:
And how do you propose to do that, when one of the parties has publicly stated he has no interest in the process?

RickK

"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
Fred Bauder wrote:

> You grossly exaggerate. We'll catch em at dawn, mediate
> em in the morning, arbitrate em in the afternoon, hang em
> and be home in time for supper.

That makes mediation seem like a mere formality. Don't you think
we should actually try to mediate? You know, find common ground
as a basis for a harmonious relationship?

Ed Poor, aka Unsolved Equation

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from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.com Associates
 program - your application approved]

body:
Elisabeth Bauer <elian at djini.de> writes:

> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that for Amazon haters, the following ranking makes the
>> most sense...
>> 1.  Don't link to them at all.  BEST
>> 2.  Link to them, but make them pay.  2nd BEST
>> 3.  Link to them for free.  WORST by FAR

No, "2." is the worst.  This way not only people get the impression it's
obiously okay to buy at A.'s (if WP links to them nothing can be wrong
with A.), but also some readers will intentionally buy there believing
that's a good way to support the WP project.

> 4. Link to them, make them pay, add a link to
> <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html> and let the informed reader
> decide for himself. ???

Adding such a link could be a way out of the mess.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


body:
Well, it COULD be Kwantus.  He's called himself a Troll before.

RickK

"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
I'm losing patience with trolls.

If it's not a borderline case or a misunderstanding or the outgrowth of
some longstanding POV dispute, but a clear case of someone just making
trouble to get attention...

With a username like The Fellowship of the Troll, tFotT seems like a
clone of Entmoot of Trolls. Both names are an obvious Lord of the Rings
reference, and both users act the same: obnoxiously. He's even managed
to tick off the mild-mannered Pakaran and the unflappable Angela.
Eloquence gave him a ban warning.

I don't care if the ISP is different. The behavior is the same.

Let's not make this the first case for Mediation or Arbitration. I
hereby request Jimbo to contact this guy directly and lay down the law
to him.

Ed Poor

---------------------------------
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from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

body:
Rick wrote:
> And how do you propose to do that, when one of the
> parties has publicly stated he has no interest in
> the process?
>
> RickK

Then arbitration won't help either. It's
understandable why someone might think it's overkill.
If they're really terrible, then we can move into old
banning procedures, but if they just don't like the
system and they're only a mild annoyance, I don't see
the harm in leaving them be.

__________________________________
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body:
Um, Dan, I would question the autobiography as being "welcome".  Not unless he has something to offer other than selling baseball bats.

RickK

Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am interested in exchanging links with your
> website wikipedia.org. My site offers a large
> variety of baseball bats and other baseball
> equiptment.
>
> My sites information is as follows:
>
> Title: USA Baseball Bats & Supply
> Url: http://store.usa-baseballbats.com
>
> or here is the html for the link to my site:
>
>
> href="http://store.usa-baseballbats.com">USA
> Baseball Bats & Supply

>
> Upon response to this email I will place a link to
> wikipedia.org on http://store.thepromotionspot.com
>
> This site is a new site and already has a 8PR and
> receives allot of traffic through search engines.
>
> I look foward to working with you!
> Jessica Hartman
>
> P.S. If you do not wish to recieve link exchange
> requests please reply with remove in the subject

As far as I can tell, Wikipedia isn't looking into
advertizing. We don't need anyone to publicise us and
we have no real need to have a link to us on your
website. At this time, I don't think we would accept
such an offer. You are wecome to write an article
about yourself on Wikipedia, so long as it is strictly
informational and not promotional.

LDan

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

body:
> There are a total of five seats on the Board. One is
> Jimbo Wales,
> and there are two other initial trustees: Michael
> Davis and Tim Shell.
> Alex R.

Who are they?

Daniel Ehrenberg

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from_name: Optim

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Card

body:
I suggest after the foundation, to issue
"Wikipedia Membership ID Cards" or something
similar.

how do u think?

--Optim

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from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] maverick

body:
> This is A1C Chavez from Ft. Hood, i have a quick question for you.
> do you know the shelf life of a Maverick?

Alliant's Web page
http://www.atk.com/aerospace/descriptions/tactical-propulsion/maverick.htm
indicates that a Maverick's rocket motor has been demonstrated to have
a "15+ year" service life.

And I must add that I find it very scary that the Air Force is looking
for that kind of information in a freely-editable encyclopedia....

--
 Sean Barrett     | A child of five would understand this.
 sean at epoptic.com | Send someone to fetch a child of five.
                  | --Groucho Marx


body:
At last count, Mr-Natural-Health had made personal attacks on 13 people.  Is this violation of Wikiquette to be allowed to continue forever?

RickK

Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
Rick wrote:
> And how do you propose to do that, when one of the
> parties has publicly stated he has no interest in
> the process?
>
> RickK

Then arbitration won't help either. It's
understandable why someone might think it's overkill.
If they're really terrible, then we can move into old
banning procedures, but if they just don't like the
system and they're only a mild annoyance, I don't see
the harm in leaving them be.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
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from_name: The Cunctator

body:
> From: Martin Harper
> Jimbo asked us to choose a chair, and I've been chosen for now. Sadly,
> we're yet to
> make contact with Gutza and The Cunctator - if anyone knows where they
> might be,
> that'd be helpful.
>
Part of the reason I haven't participated is because I've been very busy
with other things and my email has been problematic.

Another major part is because I strongly dislike the discussion on a
private mailing list.

Laziness is not an acceptable excuse for those who accept the reins of
power when the result is secrecy.

The other reason is that I haven't really felt like there's that much
that's important to contribute.

I've tried to make my basic positions on what I believe are healthy
governance processes and what are not. I'm participating in the
"arbritrary cabal" because I feel I have to, not because I want to.

--tc


subject: [WikiEN-l] maverick

in_reply_to:
<200401212236.44712.sascha@pantropy.net> (message from Sascha
	Noyes on Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:36:44 -0500)

body:
> > And I must add that I find it very scary that the Air Force is looking
> > for that kind of information in a freely-editable encyclopedia....
>
> I get the impression that Dawn Chavez was asking this out of personal
> interest. But it would be prudent not to use a .mil email address for those
> sorts of things. I did get a bit of a laugh out of that one, though. ;-)

I would say that having a personal interest in the shelf life of
Maverick missiles is rather scary, too, except that many of my
interests are similarly scary.  Maybe Dawn and I should ... no, we
probably shouldn't; my wife wouldn't understand.

--
 Sean Barrett     | Ask not what your country can do for you,
 sean at epoptic.com | ask what your country can do to you.


references:
<200401192115.57674.maveric149@yahoo.com>
	<shr7xv40sp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20040120212107.GC19125@joey.bomis.com>
	<shfze93okn.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20040121141647.GH6842@joey.bomis.com>
	<20040121163644.GA11888@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>
	<r5ihdypfe4z.fsf@gill.maths.keele.ac.uk>

body:
On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 04:41:16PM +0000, Gareth Owen wrote:
> Tomasz Wegrzanowski <taw at users.sf.net> writes:
>
> > Accepting money from someone isn't a neutral act.
> > Money does stink
>
> Now who's being non-neutral.  Does money spent on AIDS research stink?
> Does BOMIS spent on wikipedia servers stink too?  Which stinks worse?

I'm not saying that all money stinks, I'm saying that I do not
accept the radical "pecunia non olet" philosophy that accepting money
no matter from what source is fine.

The funny thing is that Jimbo doesn't seem to accept it either,
he just seems to have different idea of which sources are fine and
which aren't, by thinking that Amazon is fine, while the governments aren't.


from_name: Martin Harper

body:
Dear all,

We've been spending the last few days getting in contact, organising ourselves,
getting acquainted, and informally exploring the various issues that may arise. For
the time being we're using a private mailing list for most of our discussions.

Jimbo asked us to choose a chair, and I've been chosen for now. Sadly, we're yet to
make contact with Gutza and The Cunctator - if anyone knows where they might be,
that'd be helpful.

We're very interested to hear your thoughts and suggestions on all aspects of the
job - we suggest either [[Wikipedia talk:Administrators]] or here. Once we have an
agenda, we'll post that, and keep you informed of what we're currently discussing,
what we've decided, and so forth.

Thanks for your patience,
-Martin


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Dan, we know you don't like it.

I'd appreciate some clear feedback from _other_ users on the _current_
_actual_ behavior of the code, however.

Mostly what I've seen is complaints about the broken behavior in Mozilla
and the old 'paste sample text at the end' in various other browsers.
Those are definately unacceptable, and Erik's been working with us to
make sure that the best experience will be available before this ever
goes online on Wikipedia.

In response to the concerns of users and other developers, these
huge improvements have been made so far:

* On browsers with no javascript available, a dead useless toolbar is
_not_ shown

* On browsers that don't support adding formatting to the selected text,
sample code is no longer added willy-nilly to the end of the text.

* The Mozilla "scrolls to top of text area" bug has been reported to
the Mozilla dev team, and as a workaround we'll do what we can to avoid
triggering the bug (for instance using the version of the code for
browsers that don't support formatting the selected text at all).

Erik's not forcing evil buggy code upon the populace, here. We're all
working to make the best, most functional, most user-friendly code we can
get. Let's please not fight over something that's not happening.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Daniel-
>> Let's judge this feature based on more feedback than just yours.

> I'm *not* the only one who had a similar complaint.

So far I only count you and Elisabeth. Both Linux users - not exactly
technology newbies.

> No - my arguments are from the perspective of a person who is using the
> feature for the first time.

Not true - you used various versions of the toolbar.

> A developer who engages in a CVS commit war in opposition to the
> consensus of the other developers

That's utter and complete bullshit. I'm very disappointed - why do you
have to resort to lies to make your point?

> A developer who does not listen to users

Yeah, I only made about 20 changes because I don't "listen to users." The
problem is that by "listen to users" you mean that the opinion of a select
few users should decide whether a feature goes live or not. I, on the
other hand, argue for exposing a feature to a larger group before making a
decision. The feature is not broken - the best way to test its usability
is thus to activate it a couple of weeks. What exactly is your problem
here?

Regards,

Erik


body:
Daniel-
> Wasn't there a consensus on the IRC channel that the feature was not ready
> for immediate implementation?

If by "immediate implementation" you mean "put it on the live site ASAP",
then yes. As you can see, it's not on the live site.

If by "immediate implementation" you mean committing to CVS, then no.

> Do you deny that you then deleted Tim's site-wide switch that turned your
> feature off?

No. Tim agreed to this deletion because it didn't work in non-English
languages.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Sascha asked:

> Why the secrecy?

Email gives a nice fast response, and one of us happened to have the facilities
to quickly set up a mailing list. It's not necessarilly intended as a long term
solution.

-Martin


subject: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

body:
From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
>
> --- "Alex R." <alex756 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> > I tend to agree with you Little Dan, most of the
> > damage done
> > can be rectified by reverting edits. Sure if someone
> > is really
> > destructive it might be a lot of edits, but then we
> > have a list
> > of all the contributions there only needs to be
> > someone who
> > is willing to revert them all.
> >
> > If you are too quick at banning someone you may not
> > even
> > have enough material to show that the person should
> > not
> > be allowed to contribute. better that they
> > demonstrate their
> > bad behaviour before they undergo the "arbitration"
> > ordeal.
> >
> > There might be a really, really rare case that could
> > be done
> > by the Wikimedia board, you will notice that Art
> > III: sec. 4.4. of
> > the bylaws gives the Board of Trustees the right to
> > suspend
> > member privileges in the cases of misconduct.
> > Someone would
> > have to apply to the Board to get them to suspend
> > the
> > member in that case.  I guess you have to convince
> > the Board
> > members or make an application to them:
> > http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/bylaws.pdf
> >
> > Alex756
>
> Who's on the board of trustees?
>
There are a total of five seats on the Board. One is Jimbo Wales,
and there are two other initial trustees: Michael Davis and Tim Shell.
It states that at Art. IV sec. 2.2. There are also two elected positions
that have to be elected within 90 days of the adoption of the bylaws
(no word on when they were adopted). These two positions are
"Member Representatives" as it states in sec. 2.1. They should be
elected one from "contributing members" and one from "active
members" (see pages 3-4 of the pdf.). The two types of members
that are entitled to be elected are: (1)  Contributing Active Members.
These people are entitled to vote in this category if they have paid
a membership fee and (2) Volunteer Active Members, who make
contributions.
I've started a page on this on the Meta-Wiki here:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Trustees
Jimbo just posted this a few days ago, so it is new to everyone.

Alex R.


from_name: Peter Bartlett

body:
Karl wrote:
>> 4. Link to them, make them pay, add a link to
>> <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html> and let the informed
>> reader decide for himself. ???

>Adding such a link could be a way out of the mess.

I added such a link to
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Book_sources .
This is the first time in a while I have Been Bold to such an extent. I
welcome feedback/reversions/flames/expressions of delight at the wording
I used.

Pete


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toolbar

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

  >>(I guess, this was what David means with "pushed state buttons". If
the text
>>is bold, the button is shown in the "pushed" version)

I only meant that the buttons should be in the pushed position when the
mouse button is down and the pointer is over the button. That's standard
button behavior. In fact, the whole toolbar could be done in CSS, and
since only (relatively) advanced browsers will support the toolbar,
they'll probably all support the CSS as well. I was thinking something
along the lines of

http://www.nohat.net/btest.html

CSS has the additional benefit of being able to be easily modified to
blend in with different themes/skins that people might use.

- David [[User:Nohat]]


from_name: Sascha Noyes

subject: [Wikipedia-l] foundation of a German registered association

body:
On Wednesday 21 January 2004 09:04 pm, Kurt Jansson wrote:
> The German Wikipedia community is working on setting up an
> "eingetragener Verein" (I found these translations on dict.leo.org:
> "incorporated society", "membership corporation", "registered
> association", don't know which one fits best). Presumably the foundation
> meeting will take place in february, we will apply for tax exempt status
> soon afterwards.
>
> Our goals are
> 1. to be able to collect donations (tax-free)
> 2. to communicate with organisations from outside the project in a more
> professional, official way (e.g. with universities or foundations)
>
> There has also been a bit of talk about using the association as an
> democratic institution for decision making, but nothing has been decided
> yet. I'd say we should only use the association for this in case of
> emergency or when all other attempts fail.
>
> For more information you can feed Babelfish with these URLs:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verein
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verein/Satzung

I shall volunteer to translate the pertinent parts from
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verein if there is interest among the
current decision makers (ie. Jimbo)

>
> Jimbo, is this okay for you? Do you have any wishes or worries?
> The association will support all Wikimedia projects, not just Wikipedia.
> We will support the whole international project, and transfer part of
> the donations to the foundation if this is legaly possible, but focus on
> the German-speaking projects. Of course we're not planning a fork, and
> of course there is no cabal, at least not a German one.

If donations for wikipedias (no matter what language) do not go exclusively
towards paying for 'central' things like hardware, bandwidth (in the future),
wikipedia 1.0, getting some DB expert to optimise mediawiki, etc., then what
does the money get spent on? Publicity? (I still maintain that word-of-mouth
is superior to every other form of publicity). Conventions (synonym:
"Meetings" - as "conventions" is ambiguous)? Juristiction-specific legal
representation and advice?

In other words: What is the motivation for not giving all the money to
wikimedia? (obviously minus upkeep expenses). I'm not trying to be
antagonistic, just inquisitive.

I've read de:Wikipedia:Verein but have not found a reason (under "Gr?nde") why
not de-facto all of the money should go to wikimedia. The main reasons (given
on de:Wikipedia:Verein) for the establishment of the Verein is effective
communication with the German-speaking populace, the ability to solicit
tax-deductable donations, and officially representing the interests of
wikimedia in Germany. (about the last point, it is written on
de:Wikipedia:Verein that a direct intervention by the wikimedia foundation is
not possible because of the language barriers and the unsettled ("unsettled"
in the sense that no proper conclusion has been reached) legal situation /
legal position. (Please do inform me if the translation is not 100% accurate)

Best,
Sascha Noyes
--
Please encrypt all email. Public key available from
www.pantropy.net/snoyes.asc


from_name: Peter Gervai

body:
Okay, now I'm curious, where's that toolbar to check?

If these threads refer to test wikipedia (like edit main page) then all I
see is icons, and a line below which changes if I press a button and reloads
the page. Opera 7.50p1.


subject: [WikiEN-l] maverick

body:
On Wednesday 21 January 2004 10:27 pm, Sean Barrett wrote:
> And I must add that I find it very scary that the Air Force is looking
> for that kind of information in a freely-editable encyclopedia....

I get the impression that Dawn Chavez was asking this out of personal
interest. But it would be prudent not to use a .mil email address for those
sorts of things. I did get a bit of a laugh out of that one, though. ;-)

Best,
Sascha Noyes
--
Please encrypt all email. Public key available from
www.pantropy.net/snoyes.asc


subject: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

body:
On Wednesday 21 January 2004 10:17 pm, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> > There are a total of five seats on the Board. One is
> > Jimbo Wales,
> > and there are two other initial trustees: Michael
> > Davis and Tim Shell.
> > Alex R.
>
> Who are they?

They're Jimbo's shills that ensure a 3/5 majority. ;-)
(/ducks and hides)

Best,
Sascha Noyes
--
Please encrypt all email. Public key available from
www.pantropy.net/snoyes.asc


subject: [WikiEN-l] Duck Court

body:
From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com>

> > There are a total of five seats on the Board. One is
> > Jimbo Wales,
> > and there are two other initial trustees: Michael
> > Davis and Tim Shell.
> > Alex R.
>
> Who are they?

 You willl have to ask Jimbo.

>
> Daniel Ehrenberg
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
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> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject:
[WikiEN-l]
	RFC: Votes for merge; Proposed New Wikipedia Utility Page

body:
Some people vote pages to delete, when a merge is
the solution. If there was a Votes for merge
page, we could avoid unnecessary VfD entries. VfD
also tends to be very big and people with slow
connections have a hard time downloading all the
entries. A VfM (votes for merge) may help to keep
VfD clean from unrelated entries. Please have a
look at [[User:Optim/Wikipedia:Votes for merge]]
and tell me your opinion on [[User
talk:Optim/Wikipedia:Votes for merge]]. This is
for the English Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Optim/Wikipedia:Votes_for_merge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Optim/Wikipedia:Votes_for_merge

--Optim

__________________________________
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Toolbar

body:
I would like to apologize for being unnecessarily rude in defending my
invention. I hope it's understandable that after spending several hours
working on something, you become a bit defensive about it. Especially as I
developed this not for me, but to help newbies.

I still would like to suggest that we wait for some general feedback
regarding the "Click + get example text" feature before deciding to show
no toolbar at all for some browsers, i.e. that we run it for a trial
period of a couple of weeks. Maybe that will also lead to some ideas on
how to improve it without turning it off. The following should work in all
browsers, in case you have any ideas:
- change a textfield - overwrite it, append to it etc.
- change the status bar (at the bottom of the window)
- show a messagebox
- show a popup window

I have also contacted several Mozilla developers to search for a
workaround of the scrolling bug which I've reported.

Regards,

Erik


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: the tool bar : disable it in some browsers (or
	fix

body:
David-
> OK. Well I'm another user and I tried it with three different browsers.
> Unfortunately, it seems to be completely broken in my primary browser,
> Safari, unless I use the debug menu to set the user-agent to Konq or Mac IE.

That should be fixed in CVS. The problem is that Safari identifies as
Mozilla.

> However, I'm not in love with the icons. They look like buttons but
> don't have a "pushed" state

I'm not sure if adding a mouseover effect would make sense, but if you
think so, feel free to submit pushed state buttons.

> Also, most of the icons are not universally recognizable and should be
> replaced with unambiguous text.

I would prefer it if they were replaced with better buttons :-). If you
have any ideas, the template is at
http://scireview.de/temp/button_template.gif

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
I don't think anyone is proposing short bans without due process. We're just
considering whether short bans might be an effective remedy in certain
circumstances. Apparently they are according to Meatball.

Fred

> From: Anthere <anthere8 at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: anthere8 at yahoo.com, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:08:45 +0100
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Banning for a day, hi to Cunc
>
>
>
> Martin Harper a ?crit:
>> Fred:
>>
>>> I think sometimes a ban for a day may do more good than a ban
>>> for a year.
>>
>>
>> Just a link:
>> http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?TrialByExile
>>
>> Btw, don't edit it. We have too many Wikipedians on meatball already. Just
>> appreciate the sublime beauty(horror) of the ideas... ;-)
>
> Where is the protection button ? :-)
>
> I think no one should be short banned without a clear process and global
> agreement upon using this sort of action. Currently, we do not know who
> could decide of such an action, and we do not have any arguments laid
> down. Plus we confuse "short ban" as a mean to cool down the editor,
> "short ban" as a mean to give a break to the group, and "short ban" as a
> way to get around due process.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: b schewek

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates@amazon.com: Amazon.com
	Associatesprogram - your application approved]

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 06:16:47 -0800
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates at amazon.com: Amazon.com Associatesprogram - your application approved]

> Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> > Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> writes:
>
> We certainly are bringing Amazon no *additional* benefit by linking to
> them with an associates code.
>
> It seems to me that for Amazon haters, the following ranking makes the
> most sense...
>
> 1.  Don't link to them at all.  BEST
>
> 2.  Link to them, but make them pay.  2nd BEST
>
> 3.  Link to them for free.  WORST by FAR
>
> --Jimbo

One should differ between
*  do not link to booksellers one does not like
*  do not link to booksellers generally

There has not been one reason given so far
why WP should link to booksellers in the first place.
WP does not link to Art/Music/Video/Computer/Coin/Stamp/...
sellers as well? Maybe the whole "link to seller" idea
should be reviewed.

Schewek

--
______________________________________________
Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.

Powered by Outblaze


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Quacks Like a Duck

body:
Yes, there is pressure, but we are dragging our feet.

Fred

> From: Anthere <anthere8 at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: anthere8 at yahoo.com, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 06:59:44 +0100
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Quacks Like a Duck
>
>
>
> Daniel Ehrenberg a ?crit:
>> Rick wrote:
>>
>>> That doesn't seem to be an option any longer.  No,
>>> instead, we're going to have a months-long runup to
>>> a mediation process, a months-long mediation
>>> process, a months-long runup to an arbitration
>>> process, a months-long arbitration process, and then
>>> maybe, just maybe, somebody will, someday when they
>>> get around to it, propose banning.
>>>
>>> RickK
>>
>>
>> I thought we were going to have somewhat unofficial
>> mediation, which is just talking, and then we go
>> through the old banning procedures if we felt we
>> needed to. The goal of this is to prevent banning, not
>> delay it, but if needed (eg. if there's lots of active
>> vandalization, not just an edit conflict), there might
>> be a ban instead of mediation.
>>
>> LDan
>
> One thing that will require to be watched with attention will be "how
> many people will be in effect banned in the next weeks".
>
> Whether what we will gain in efficiency, we won't lose it in openness.
>
> And the amount of pressure which will be applied on both committee, to
> ban people as soon as possible.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Anthere

body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Daniel-
>
>>>Let's judge this feature based on more feedback than just yours.
>>
>
>>I'm *not* the only one who had a similar complaint.
>
>
> So far I only count you and Elisabeth. Both Linux users - not exactly
> technology newbies.

Your favorite and most dedicated bug tester is disappointed here.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Trolls, how to feed them: not

body:
Nathan,

Would you be ever so kind please,
as to register to the mailing list if you are going to post to it

Thank you :-)

Anthere
The current list admin

(Ed, by the way, ain't you back ?)

Nathan Russell a ?crit:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> | I'm losing patience with trolls.
> |
> | If it's not a borderline case or a misunderstanding or the outgrowth of
> | some longstanding POV dispute, but a clear case of someone just making
> | trouble to get attention...
> |
> | With a username like The Fellowship of the Troll, tFotT seems like a
> | clone of Entmoot of Trolls. Both names are an obvious Lord of the Rings
> | reference, and both users act the same: obnoxiously. He's even managed
> | to tick off the mild-mannered Pakaran and the unflappable Angela.
> | Eloquence gave him a ban warning.
> |
> | I don't care if the ISP is different. The behavior is the same.
>
> As long as we're on the subject, would you mind cross-checking the IPs
> when you have a few free minutes.
>
> If this is an *obvious* return of EoT, he can be banned without going to
> Jimbo.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Nathan
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFADu+/MUlnNfyqpaMRAomLAJ9WBWjYBHS0zVmwst9LdUu8x+1MwgCdF1Vr
> 24+GqhHQnWtrBnn03sfJ3bU=
> =KIMO
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] Deletion reorg vote

body:
After much discussion, there is now a vote to reorganize the various
deletion-related pages and to split the VfD process into two stages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy

This was initially one big vote, based on feedback I've now separated it
into different parts.

The most significant proposed change is to split [[Wikipedia:Votes for
deletion]] into two stages, [[Wikipedia:Deletion requests]] and
[[Wikipedia:Deletion votes]].

The problem is that right now, different people have contradictory ideas
as to what VfD is supposed to be. Some regard it as a "consensus only"
page and oppose all voting, others have effectively already started
deleting pages according to a 2/3 threshold.

This proposal tries to find a compromise between the "no voting, ever"
faction and the "vote on everything" faction. It requires those who want a
vote to undergo a 7 day consensus seeking stage, and to do the job of
summarizing the arguments that have been brought up in that stage. If no
consensus can be reached, they can list the page at "Deletion votes" (with
the aforementioned argument summary being a mandatory part of such a
listing), and if 80% of support can be reached, the page may be deleted.

I would like to urge the voting opponents to consider this compromise. It
is very favorable to them, as it requires a high threshold (80%) and
generally encourages consensus seeking over voting. I would also like to
urge the voting advocates, who I suspect to be more numerous, to
accommodate the opponents in this regard to avoid escalation.

The proposal is tied to a 30 day trial period. After that period we can
argue and vote once again on whether we want to continue using this
scheme, refine it, or go back to the old "VfD" scheme, whatever that is.

Please participate in this decision.

Regards,

Erik


body:
----- Original Message -----
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:55:00 -0800
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [associates at amazon.com: Amazon.comAssociatesprogram - your application approved]

> b schewek wrote:
> > There has not been one reason given so far why WP should link to
> > booksellers in the first place.
>
> Well, that's a conversation that we've had more than once, see.

Sorry, that was before my time.
If you could point me to those arguments.
(Those might render my further remarks obsolete.)

> It's clearly useful to many readers.  It's not evil to buy books.
> It's not even evil to sell books.
>
> Let's say we have an article about Stephen King (we do).  And an
> article about one of his books (we do).  Why should we not link to a
> page that lets people know how they can do more research by actually
> obtaining the book?  The user might want to buy it, or borrow it from
> a library, or read reviews of it, etc.
>
> I've seen arguments that I respect (though I'm ultimately unconvinced)
> as to why we should not link to Amazon in particular.  But I've seen
> no argument to suggest that linking to booksellers _generally_ is a
> bad thing.  Why should it be?

> I suppose some might argue that any form of voluntary exchange, money
> for books, is immoral.  But, I'd like to see it.

I never suggested it would be bad in and by itself to engage in trade,
to link to booksellers or to promote reading or...
I just question if it is *within the WP-idea* to link to people or organizations selling the item itself.

Many things are useful to people.
But WP's purpose is to be useful in a specific way,
and one would have to argue that pointing to a
book (or whatever) seller enhances this usefulness.

>
> Just for the record, after nearly 24 hours with the link on the book
> sources page, sales and revenue to us are $0.00.  It's a bit early to
> tell, but I think it's fairly clear that this (linking for money) is
> going to be a complete nonissue anyway.

Well, if there is no revenue
it means there was no use
which means we can remove the link. (Just kidding.)

-- Schewek
--
______________________________________________
Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.

Powered by Outblaze


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] maverick

body:
Sean Barrett wrote:

>>>And I must add that I find it very scary that the Air Force is looking
>>>for that kind of information in a freely-editable encyclopedia....
>>>
>>I get the impression that Dawn Chavez was asking this out of personal
>>interest. But it would be prudent not to use a .mil email address for those
>>sorts of things. I did get a bit of a laugh out of that one, though. ;-)
>>
>I would say that having a personal interest in the shelf life of
>Maverick missiles is rather scary, too, except that many of my
>interests are similarly scary.  Maybe Dawn and I should ... no, we
>probably shouldn't; my wife wouldn't understand.
>
It took a while to figure out that she wasn't refering to our long time
member Mav, and even to understand what her possible personal attack on
him was all about.  Now that others better versed in such matters have
explained that we are dealing with some kind of missile and not the Ford
product, I think that I can safely conclude that this lady is not
officer material.  No wonder Sean's wife wouldn't understand! :-)

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] toolbar

body:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Ivo [iso-8859-15] K?thnig wrote:
> I like this feature, although I just can use the "Example-Version", since I
> use the Konqi. But since I will never use it, til it work for Konqi too, there
> should be an option in the user-preferences to switch of this toolbar.

There is, "Show edit box toolbar".

> Since I can not test this, I have a question. Does the toolbar recognize, if
> the selected Text is (as an example) already bold and will delete this
> formating, after clicking the bold-button again?

No.

This may theoretically be possible in some circumstances.

> (I guess, this was what David means with "pushed state buttons". If the text
> is bold, the button is shown in the "pushed" version)

That would be extremely hard if at all possible.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Ivo Köthnig

body:
I like this feature, although I just can use the "Example-Version", since I
use the Konqi. But since I will never use it, til it work for Konqi too, there
should be an option in the user-preferences to switch of this toolbar.

There should be 3 states:
1. Toolbar for every browser (may just in the "example-version")
2. Toolbar just for browsers it works in the original way
   (no "example-version")
3. No toolbar.

Second should be default for logged in users. First should be the default for
IP-Adresses.

> > However, I'm not in love with the icons. They look like buttons but
> > don't have a "pushed" state
>
> I'm not sure if adding a mouseover effect would make sense, but if you
> think so, feel free to submit pushed state buttons.

I am not sure, if David means that, but I would prefer this too.

Since I can not test this, I have a question. Does the toolbar recognize, if
the selected Text is (as an example) already bold and will delete this
formating, after clicking the bold-button again?

(I guess, this was what David means with "pushed state buttons". If the text
is bold, the button is shown in the "pushed" version)

Regards
Ivo K?thnig


from_name: Frederic Malo

body:
Thanks Brion!

By the way, does anybody know a good stitching software (windows) ?

Thank you for all!

Frederic

-----Message d'origine-----
De : wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] De la part de Brion Vibber
Envoy? : mardi 20 janvier 2004 10:52
? : wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Objet : Re: [Wikipedia-l] trouble with gzip2 downloads

Okay, new backup is now available. It says it's three days old because it
took so long to run on the slow machine. :P

Temporarily at: http://susan.bomis.com/

The English Wikipedia old revisions table is available in two parts (xaa,
xab) to get around the 2GB-download problem with Apache on a 32-bit server.

Also -- all wikis will go OFFLINE shortly for transferring the database back
to geoffrin, the fast server, which seems to be happy with a lobotomy down
to 2GB of ram.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Banning for a day, hi to Cunc

body:
Fred:
> I think sometimes a ban for a day may do more good than a ban
> for a year.

Just a link:
http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?TrialByExile

Btw, don't edit it. We have too many Wikipedians on meatball already. Just
appreciate the sublime beauty(horror) of the ideas... ;-)

Cunctator:
>I've been very busy with other things and my email has been problematic.

Ahh, understood. Hi anyway, glad you could make it. Now we just need Gutza, but
sie's been editing Wikipedia quite recently, so sie should turn up soon.

-Martin


subject: [Wikipedia-l] toolbar


from_name: Carl Witty

subject: [Wikipedia-l] trouble with gzip2 downloads

body:
On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 16:57, Frederic Malo wrote:
> Thanks Brion!
>
> By the way, does anybody know a good stitching software (windows) ?

The first thing I would try is the command-line "copy" command: start up
a command prompt, and type:

  copy /b xaa+xab 20040117_old_table.sql.bz2

My only question is whether this works on 2gb files; I've never tried it
on really large files, but I don't know any reason it wouldn't work.

(The "/b" says to use binary mode; without it, copy in
file-concatenation mode defaults to ASCII, which means it stops copying
at the first Control-Z character.)

Carl Witty


from_name: Kurt Jansson

body:
The German Wikipedia community is working on setting up an
"eingetragener Verein" (I found these translations on dict.leo.org:
"incorporated society", "membership corporation", "registered
association", don't know which one fits best). Presumably the foundation
meeting will take place in february, we will apply for tax exempt status
soon afterwards.

Our goals are
1. to be able to collect donations (tax-free)
2. to communicate with organisations from outside the project in a more
professional, official way (e.g. with universities or foundations)

There has also been a bit of talk about using the association as an
democratic institution for decision making, but nothing has been decided
yet. I'd say we should only use the association for this in case of
emergency or when all other attempts fail.

For more information you can feed Babelfish with these URLs:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verein
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verein/Satzung

Jimbo, is this okay for you? Do you have any wishes or worries?
The association will support all Wikimedia projects, not just Wikipedia.
We will support the whole international project, and transfer part of
the donations to the foundation if this is legaly possible, but focus on
the German-speaking projects. Of course we're not planning a fork, and
of course there is no cabal, at least not a German one.

Kurt


from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [WikiEN-l] English names

body:
On Wednesday 21 January 2004 17:33, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> The capital of the USSR (and still capital of Russia)
> is Moskva (or Moscow, I forget which). We're an
> English-language encyclopedia, we have to call places
> /something/. Moscow doesn't have an English name per
> se; it's a Russian city with a Russian name. But
> English-speaking people have been referring to it with
> the /English word/ 'Moscow'.

The way I see it, Moscow and Japan have their English names, which are not
same as their original names.


from_name: Ira Stoll

subject: [WikiEN-l] You guys are great!

body:
I resisted subscribing to the mailing list for a very long time do to a
comment I saw at [[Wikipedia:Missing Wikipedians]] placed by a "??? aka
BigFatBuddha". He said he had read the mailing list and found it full of
gossip regarding him. I don't know if I have a large ego or what, but a
large part of my intent in coming to the mailing list now was to see what
gossip there would be about me. What I found was no mention of myself, but
rather a great deal of positive, agreeable, reasonable posts. When I first
came to the wikipedia I was in awe of the egalitarianism and benevolent
dictatorship. After some of my recent troubles, I had a much grimmer view of
wikipolitics. I found the wikipedia to be a scary 16th century new england
town, full of finger pointing and mob-mentality witch hunts. I was concerned
that the process of codifying authority was unfinished. Really, I wasn't
sure if this could all work out in the end, if a quality reference source
(one I can cite on my term papers!) could be created. Now I am sure it can.
I see now more clearly, that the pleasant goodwill, and respect for truth
and progress and I have found in the IRC chat room is not exclusive, but
rather is growing. I compliment you sincerely, and I predict slow but steady
success in all areas of the wikipedia. Jack

_________________________________________________________________
Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up ? fast & reliable Internet access with prime
features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1


body:
Sascha Noyes wrote:

> If donations for wikipedias (no matter what language) do not go exclusively
> towards paying for 'central' things like hardware, bandwidth (in the future),
> wikipedia 1.0, getting some DB expert to optimise mediawiki, etc., then what
> does the money get spent on?

There has been a tendency to not "give out the bear's fur before he's
shot" which means not to discuss the spending of money we haven't got.
So I don't know what will be decided in the end. Maybe 90% of all
donations will go to the foundation, maybe much less.

One problem is that we aren't completely sure if it's legaly possible to
transfer money from a tax exempt German association to an American
foundation. I'll talk about this with a German tax collector.

And of course the association has administrative expenses (invitation
for an annual meeting) that need to be covered.

> Publicity? (I still maintain that word-of-mouth
> is superior to every other form of publicity).

Yes it is, but there might be communities where we need to have
"multiplicators" who spread the word. I think adverts in some handpicked
scientific journals might be a good idea, but others will object.

> Conventions (synonym: "Meetings" - as "conventions" is ambiguous)?

We could cover part of Jimbo's costs to come to the Wizards of OS 3 in
Berlin this summer. :-)

> Juristiction-specific legal representation and advice?

Seems to be a good idea to me, yes.

> In other words: What is the motivation for not giving all the money to
> wikimedia?

We could give all the money to the foundation, but personally I'd like
to see a democratically elected international board first. And I want
some administration overhead ("hydrocephalus") for my money :-)

Kurt


subject: [WikiEN-l] Requesting Arbitration

body:
I have written an introduction to the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration
article. I suggest that all requests for arbitration be initiated by the
posting of a request for arbitration on that page. Such a posting should not
be made until mediation has been tried and failed. Not sure how that should
be established.

I also posted this in the arbitration forum:

http://boards.wikimedia.org/viewtopic.php?p=7#7

Which parties interested in our arbitration procedures and proceeding might
wish to use.

Fred


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Quacks Like a Duck

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg a ?crit:
> Rick wrote:
>
>>That doesn't seem to be an option any longer.  No,
>>instead, we're going to have a months-long runup to
>>a mediation process, a months-long mediation
>>process, a months-long runup to an arbitration
>>process, a months-long arbitration process, and then
>>maybe, just maybe, somebody will, someday when they
>>get around to it, propose banning.
>>
>>RickK
>
>
> I thought we were going to have somewhat unofficial
> mediation, which is just talking, and then we go
> through the old banning procedures if we felt we
> needed to. The goal of this is to prevent banning, not
> delay it, but if needed (eg. if there's lots of active
> vandalization, not just an edit conflict), there might
> be a ban instead of mediation.
>
> LDan

One thing that will require to be watched with attention will be "how
many people will be in effect banned in the next weeks".

Whether what we will gain in efficiency, we won't lose it in openness.

And the amount of pressure which will be applied on both committee, to
ban people as soon as possible.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Banning for a day, hi to Cunc

body:
Martin Harper a ?crit:
> Fred:
>
>>I think sometimes a ban for a day may do more good than a ban
>>for a year.
>
>
> Just a link:
> http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?TrialByExile
>
> Btw, don't edit it. We have too many Wikipedians on meatball already. Just
> appreciate the sublime beauty(horror) of the ideas... ;-)

Where is the protection button ? :-)

I think no one should be short banned without a clear process and global
agreement upon using this sort of action. Currently, we do not know who
could decide of such an action, and we do not have any arguments laid
down. Plus we confuse "short ban" as a mean to cool down the editor,
"short ban" as a mean to give a break to the group, and "short ban" as a
way to get around due process.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Kill the puppy (was: Quacks Like a Duck)

body:
Rick a ?crit:
> And how do you propose to do that, when one of the parties has publicly
> stated he has no interest in the process?

Mr-Natural-Health mentionned on Wikipedia:Requests for mediation that he
agreed to arbitration.

?