body:
From: "Karl Eichwalder" <ke at gnu.franken.de>
> Please, stay away from those changes.
> > What about all the piped links that are already in
> > Wikipedia?

But the usual pipe |
links are a-okay aren't they,
like [[Jay Bowks|Jay BOWKS]]
when I found out about this way
of printing the look of the link
I thought it quite a handy trick!
I can understand about the
parentheses causing some
trouble in links though.
Since,
Jay B.


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikipedia-l] One more try...

body:
I should be subscribed now.  I don't know if others have encountered
problems subscribing to the list, but if so, they don't have the
option I did of just logging onto the server and subscribing myself
manually.  I don't know much about mailman, so maybe I'm not the best
one to investigate.

While I'm here, let me express my take on Brion's suggestion for the
pipe-shortcut: I don't like the suggestion.  The syntax of a language
intended for non-technical folks should be as simple and unsurprizing
as possible.  If we can throw a bone to the old hands now and then to
make their job easier too, that's fine--that's why I added the pipe
trick in the first place.  But if "xxxxx" is a valid page title, then
the simple notation [[xxx]] should link to that page, in every case,
not just the most common ones.  Brion's suggestion would not make a
special expert syntax, it would make a special case of /names/ that
don't obey the standard syntax.  I think that's more surprizing than
the alternatives.

What I /would/ support is changing the piped syntax so that it was
interpreted at render time rather than save time; so that, for
example, [[Mercury (planet)|]] would remain in the page source code
as is, rather than being expanded right away.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: The pipe trick (ceci ne soit pas une pipe)

body:
>What would also be nice is the extend the pipe trick
>for comma titles. IMO to follow the logic of your
>proposed change [[Auburn, California]] would
>automatically become [[Auburn, California | Auburn]]
>but that may brake many links that already intend to
>display the whole link name. So just to make linking
>easier for at least those in the know perhaps
>[[Auburn, California | ]] could be displayed as just
>Auburn but in the wiki code it could still be
>[[Auburn, California | ]] so that newbies can figure
>out the trick. Yeah I know this would be inconsistent
>with the proposed change in how the pipe trick works
>with parentheticals but it is still tedious to type
>[[Auburn, California | Auburn]] all the time.
>
>-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

Violates the principle of least surprise, in my arrogant opinion.  A
naive attempt to link to [[20,000 Leagues Under the Sea]] would show up
in the displayed article as 20?  A link to [['Night, Mother]]
would display as 'Night?

I think a lot of newbies would conclude that the Wikipedia is broken.
--
 Sean Barrett     | Aw, Mom, you act like I'm not even
 sean at epoptic.com | wearing a bungee cord! --Calvin


list: wikien-l

from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] River names Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa

body:
Eclecticology wrote:

>We still have to chose which has the article and
>which has the redirect.

You know what? I wish we had a script that would
create a custom variation of the article, based
on how the reader accesses it.

Like if some looked for [[Occam's Razor]] they
would find:

Occam's Razor (or Ockham's Razor), a principle
attributed to William of Ockham... Modern scientists
appeal to Occam's Razor when they assert, "The
simplest hypothesis is best."

But if a user looked for [[Ockham's Razor]] they
would find this variation:

Ockham's Razor (or Occam's Razor), a principle
attributed to William of Ockham... Modern scientists
appeal to Ockham's Razor when they assert, "The
simplest hypothesis is best."

Of course, this would be difficult and cumbersome
to do. There'd have to be script, and a syntax for
invoking it. But this idea, if carried out, would
help to alleviate feuds like Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa.

"Uncle Ed", aka Ed Poor


from_name: Mirko Thiessen

body:
Hello all,

there is a dispute in several articles, whether the Oder/Odra river should be called by its
German or its Polish name. The same for the Neisse/Nysa river and the Oder-Neisse
line/Odra-Nysa line. I'd like to ask the community, which name is used more often by
native English speakers. There are some annoying accusations in this dispute (see
[[User talk:Taw|Taw's talk page]] for more details), so I would like to let the majority
decide and end the seesaw changes on the relating pages.

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Sounds like you've been talking to Helga ;-)

Magnus

P.S.: I only know it as Oder-Neisse line. Of course, I'm German...

Mirko Thiessen wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>
>there is a dispute in several articles, whether the Oder/Odra river should be called by its
>German or its Polish name. The same for the Neisse/Nysa river and the Oder-Neisse
>line/Odra-Nysa line. I'd like to ask the community, which name is used more often by
>native English speakers. There are some annoying accusations in this dispute (see
>[[User talk:Taw|Taw's talk page]] for more details), so I would like to let the majority
>decide and end the seesaw changes on the relating pages.
>
>
>Mirko.
>
>
>


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Creating categories through relations...

body:
I've been thinking a lot about rigid categories (clear-cut, well defined
rules, often mutually exclsuve and/or hierarchical) and soft categories
(fuzzy membership rules, rarely mutually exclusive or hierarchical).

It seems to me that we want not categories, but ''relations'' between
objects, from which categories fall out as a consequence.

* Relations should be of the form x R y, where x and y are articles, and
R is a relation-name.
I propose a new namespace, Relation: for talking about relations. Notice
that this makes it possible that x or y, or both, can also be relations!

The current link structure defines exactly one kind of relation: links-to

* Relations need not be equivalence relations, or even be reflexive or
transitive.

* Now reserve a special syntax for putting relations into articles:

#relation [[article 1]] relation-name [[article 2]]

Note that article 1 or article 2 should be the name of the article that
the line is written in: perhaps we could have a shorthand, 'this' for
this article.

Now we can say things like:

#relation [[science]] is-a [[field of enquiry]]

#relation [[physics]] is-a [[science]]

#relation [[England]] subset-of [[Great Britain]]

#relation [[United Kingdom]] is-a [[nation state]]

#relation [[two]] is-a [[prime number]]

and so on...

It's ideal fodder for machine analysis (RDF can be generated naturally),
and easy to parse and write.
It's easy! It's wiki-style!

* Now comes the nice bit.

We can have meta-rules:

#relation [[relation:subset-of]] reverse-of [[relation:superset-of]]

#relation [[relation:subset-of]] more-important-for-sorting-than
[[relation:member-of]]

#relation [[relation:identical-to]] is-a [[equivalence relation]]

Brainstorming...

* fuzzy relations:

#relation [[man]] indentical-to [[woman]] 0.85

* Bayesian inference on fuzzy rules...

--  Neil


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Creating categories through relations...


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

body:
Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> writes:

Please, stay away from those changes.

> What about all the piped links that are already in
> Wikipedia?

Of course, they must stay as are!  Look at
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg and you will see what I mean.  No
more tricks please or I'll start loosing confidence in the project as a
whole.

Maybe, I better should stick with my own SGML related projects ;)

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Geoff Burling

body:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Tom Parmenter wrote:
>
> The Oder-Niesse line is very well known by that name in the United
> States.  Of course, what it is known for is marking the border between
> Poland and Germany, established as such at the end of World War II, so
> it is natural that Polish people are sensitive about it.  Nonetheless,
> it is not known as the Odra-Nysa line.
>
In other words, we should expect a number of edit wars between
German chauvinists & Polish chauvinists to occur over territories that
were formerly part of Germany for the foreseeable future?

I've peaked at the disagreements over the content of the Danzig article,
& have to admit that I was scared off: one's ability to do research
to get to the bottom of a disagreement is very limited over a dial-up
connection.

Geoff


from_name: Tom Parmenter

in_reply_to:
<HFKI1WEKEPL3VC8JFRNWR4XQND0JG61.3e525c26@mt> (message from Mirko
	Thiessen on Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:15:34 +0100)

body:
The Oder-Niesse line is very well known by that name in the United
States.  Of course, what it is known for is marking the border between
Poland and Germany, established as such at the end of World War II, so
it is natural that Polish people are sensitive about it.  Nonetheless,
it is not known as the Odra-Nysa line.

Tom Parmenter

|From: Mirko Thiessen <mt at mirko-thiessen.de>
|X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
|Sender: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:15:34 +0100
|
|Hello all,
|
|
|there is a dispute in several articles, whether the Oder/Odra river
|should be called by its German or its Polish name. The same for the
|Neisse/Nysa river and the Oder-Neisse line/Odra-Nysa line. I'd like
|to ask the community, which name is used more often by native English
|speakers. There are some annoying accusations in this dispute (see
|[[User talk:Taw|Taw's talk page]] for more details), so I would like
|to let the majority decide and end the seesaw changes on the relating
|pages.
|
|
|Mirko.
|
|--
|Mirko Thiessen
|http://www.mirko-thiessen.de
|
|
|_______________________________________________
|WikiEN-l mailing list
|WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
|


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The pipe trick (ceci ne soit pas une pipe)

body:
Well, the trick would be a lot more tricky and useful if some genius
converted the various [[German language]] links to [[German
(language)]] so we wouldn't have to type [[German language|German]]
all the time.   (And [[Spanish language]] and [[Latin language]] etc.)

|From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>
|Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:49:27 -0800
|
|Anthere wrote:
|> You know what ? I feel a newbie, I didnot know about
|> this trick :-)
|
|Yeah, me too!
|
|--Jimbo
|_______________________________________________


from_name: Jimmy Wales

in_reply_to: <WUSKG4ZWU7GAHBFBLGFAMGFKEOMFC.3e5355ac@mt>; from mt@mirko-thiessen.de on Wed, Feb 19, 2003 at 11:00:12AM +0100

body:
Mirko Thiessen wrote:
> What do you think about that solution: call it "Oder" in articles
> relating to German regions (Lower Oder Valley National Park), call
> it "Odra" in articles relating to Polish regions (Szczecin).

Is this common practice in English?

> So, my vote is to leave the main article where it is now: "Odra",
> since there are greater portions of the river in Poland.

The location of the river is one factor in determining what we should
call it in English, but not the only factor.  We know the name in
Polish, and the name in German, but the question of what the name
"really" is in English seems to be primarily a question of common
usage.

It seems like this river is not widely talked about in English at all
(based on my web searches), so it probably doesn't matter a great deal
either way.  :-)

--Jimbo


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: River names Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa

body:
>.....
>2. "Odra" is the original and the true
>name of the river.
>
>I doubt this. I would guess, that the original
>name was neither Oder nor Odra, but
>something completely different. There is
>nothing like a true name. This is the same
>dispute as for many other placenames
>(Macedonia, Sea of Japan, etc.)

This is not directed specifically at you Mirko, but;
The idea that there is "one true name" of /anything/ is a total fallacy. Names
are not intrinsically linked to subjects - all they are, are abstractions
that the human mind uses in order to index and store data connected to the
subject.

So the only "correct" name for a thing in English Wikipedia is what is most
commonly used and recognized by English speakers.

>I've already told, that I would not mind, if
>we should decide to use the name "Odra".
>But I would like to place a decision in our
>Naming Conventions, so whenever someone
>changes the name again, we can refer him to
>that page and simply correct it without
>having a new chauvinist  outcry.
>
>Mirko.

This is already covered by:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English) and
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names)

Therefore, as already has been explained, Oder and  Neisser are the forms we
should use.

--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
Added a bunch of events to [[February 13]]; updated all the year pages and
many of the other articles linked from that page.


body:
On Wednesday 19 February 2003 03:52 am, I wrote:
>...
> Therefore, as already has been explained, Oder and  Neisser are the forms
> we should use.

I should have typed "Neisse" and not "Neisser." In the future I guess I
shouldn't be writing emails at 4AM. :)

--mav


body:
Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> writes:

> You clearly have a different idea of what "tricks" constitute than I do,
> or you'd be clamoring to get rid of the ugly tricks we're currently forced
> to use on 99% of links to disambiguated page titles.

No, those are okay.  But let me point out it took me some time to get
the sequence right (first link, then display text).

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
> Well, the trick would be a lot more tricky and useful if some genius
> converted the various [[German language]] links to [[German
> (language)]] so we wouldn't have to type [[German language|German]]
> all the time.   (And [[Spanish language]] and [[Latin language]] etc.)

Yup, this is a general principle we should apply. See my message from a
couple of weeks ago:

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/000978.html

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Name Game

in_reply_to: <E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280F43BF@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>; from Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com on Wed, Feb 19, 2003 at 08:54:48AM -0500

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> So, every time someone mentions Gaza and the West Bank, they
> have a choice: simply call them "Gaza and the West Bank", which
> doesn't imply much of anything;

I think we are fortunate in this particular case, in there there is a
politically neutral name for the area.  We don't need to say either
"occupied territories" or "disputed territories", we can just say
"Gaza and the West Bank".

In other cases, I suppose this might be more difficult, for instance
if there is no relatively neutral term.

"pro-life" and "pro-choice", in the abortion debate, are the standard
terms, and I think they are generally accepted -- but only grudgingly
-- by both sides.  Both are questionable to a degree, but it seems
that the media consensus is to let each side name their own position.

Pro-choicers will argue that they are in fact in favor of life, and so
forth.  Pro-lifers will argue that they are in fact in favor of choice
(for the unborn, etc.)  Pro-abortion and anti-abortion are no better,
because Pro-choicers will often reject the notion that they are _in
favor of_ abortion.

My point is -- Ed's right, whenever there's a politically neutral
term, acceptable to all sides, we should use it.  But I also think
that this will sometimes be difficult.

--Jimbo


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
> From: Geoff Burling <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:31:46 -0800 (PST)
> To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] River names Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa
>
> On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Tom Parmenter wrote:
>>
>> The Oder-Niesse line is very well known by that name in the United
>> States.  Of course, what it is known for is marking the border between
>> Poland and Germany, established as such at the end of World War II, so
>> it is natural that Polish people are sensitive about it.  Nonetheless,
>> it is not known as the Odra-Nysa line.
>>
> In other words, we should expect a number of edit wars between
> German chauvinists & Polish chauvinists to occur over territories that
> were formerly part of Germany for the foreseeable future?

No, we should not put up with either bunch.

Fred

>
> I've peaked at the disagreements over the content of the Danzig article,
> & have to admit that I was scared off: one's ability to do research
> to get to the bottom of a disagreement is very limited over a dial-up
> connection.
>
> Geoff
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Tobin Richard

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Compressing the old table

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> The storage of old article revisions on Wikipedia is taking a few gigs
> now, and getting larger.
>
> Occasional alterations made to the old table's structure require a
> duplicate temporary table; the downside of Innodb's storage management

<SNIP>

> * PHP needs to be recompiled with zlib support; we may have to make it
> optional for third-party sites.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

If this were not optional it would be a serrious blow to some other
wikipedia based sites (not that there are many). There are a lot of
webhosting companies that will not want to change their setups just so a
few customers can continue to run the latest version of PediaWiki.

Tobin Richard


subject: [WikiEN-l] Name Game

body:
The reason geographical names are crucially important to some
people is that they are actively engaged in political advocacy.

For example, the "occupied Palestinian territories". This simple
term carries a lot of baggage.

The term means that Gaza and West Bank are _under occupation_,
which in turn implies that Israel is wrong to have its military
forces there. The term also means that the territories belong
to "Palestinians"; when we de-reference this latter term, we
find that Palestinians are a stateless people (nearly all Arabs)
 living in (or desiring to live in) the region formerly known
as Palestine.

So, every time someone mentions Gaza and the West Bank, they
have a choice: simply call them "Gaza and the West Bank", which
doesn't imply much of anything; or call them the "occupied
Palestinian territories", which implies that Israel shouldn't
have those lands but the stateless Arabs should.

Wikipedia actually has to make this choice. It can choose to
get to the bottom of the controversy, take an objective stance,
and educate people as to the real truth. Or it can do its best
to stay out of the controversy and merely report on what the
various advocates say. I have tried to word the various Arab-
Israeli conflict article so that Wikipedia can stay above the
controversy (BTW, how'm I doin? ;-).

What does this have to do with Polish or German names? Well,
I don't know: nothing, I hope. But I worry that some advocates
may be playing a variation on the "occupied Palestinian terri-
tories" game. If the REAL name of a geographical feature is
Polish, that implies that its REAL OWNER is Poland. Or, real
name German implies real owner is Germany.

I think we should rise above this controversy as much as we can:
* Acknowledge the _existence_ of alternate names.
* Avoid any pronouncement that either alternative is the
  "right" one.
* Where controversy is heated, describe it in the article,
  e.g., "German historian Adolf Hamburger calls this village
  Frankfort, while Polish geographer Jerzy Polska call it
  Phrangforcky."

My 2 cents.

Uncle Ed, aka Ed Poor
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wikipedia setup issue.

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Tobin Richard wrote:
>
>>I've setup localsettings.php and createdb.php to use the correct
>>database but I continue recieving the following message.
>>
>>"Parse error: parse error, unexpected T_VARIABLE in
>>/home/tobin/public_html/LocalSettings.php on line 10
>>Creating new tables. Could not select database
>>No Database Selected (tried non-p connect)
>
>
> Make sure the username & password settings are correct, and that you've
> set up the user permissins on MySQL. Modify and run buildUsers.inc
> appropriately.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Fixed now. turned out the user names existed but they didn't have
permission to access the database (setting up MySQL through my webhosts
frontend is not much fun! :)

Now I just need to get PHP warnings and notices turned off and
everything will be working well.

Tobin Richard.


body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

>Sounds like you've been talking to Helga ;-)
>

Au contraire!

Helga's name is often mentioned in this dispute, although it has nothing to do with Helga
at all. Probably this is a result of the damage, that Helga has done. There are two
arguments from the Wikipedians in favour of Odra:

1. Helga called that river "Oder", so we should not call it "Oder".

This is a little bit like Hitler and the can opener. Only because Hitler opened his cans with
a can opener, this would not be a reason for me to open my cans in another way. "Oder"
is not a term, which was coined by the Nazis. I stated on Taw's talk page, that this is the
German name of the river and not the Nazi name. Some people don't appear to be aware
of this basic fact.

2. "Odra" is the original and the true name of the river.

I doubt this. I would guess, that the original name was neither Oder nor Odra, but
something completely different. There is nothing like a true name. This is the same
dispute as for many other placenames (Macedonia, Sea of Japan, etc.)

I've already told, that I would not mind, if we should decide to use the name "Odra". But I
would like to place a decision in our Naming Conventions, so whenever someone
changes the name again, we can refer him to that page and simply correct it without
having a new chauvinist  outcry.

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
Hello !

I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage at
http://fr.wikipedia.org/

We went over quite many transformations, and I think
we are still not done with all of them yet :-)

Specific french features are
* the logo (which I hope we'll update to better fit
our new colors)
* a quite colourful design, with our special colored
little dots and text areas
* a brand new reorganisation of the different
headings, with move and creation of items.
* an announcement community area

In particular, we proceeded
- to make less proeminent "sciences" (in particular
technics and applied sciences) which were maybe a
little bit overrepresented compared to real life and
lay wo-men concerns.
- move such fields like philosphy to human sciences
where it seems to us to belong; add cognitive sciences
to human sciences
- introduce ecology and universe sciences in the
natural sciences heading
- separate fields such as "industry" and "business"
(which at least in France represent the 2nd and the
3rd sector in economy, and as such are separated)
- make more proeminent an entire heading dealing with
Politics, Law and Society (and introduce notions of
family, defense and environment management)
- give more room to religion...
- make a brand new heading about daily life (with
topics such as nutrition, health, sexology...) - to
get more in touch with everyday matters and questions
...

The announcement community area is still a bit
controversial. It seems there is an agreement for the
existence of this area (when there is need for an
announcement that is...), but not on what should be
allowed to be in.
For example, Francis put an announcement for last
saturday Peace March (with either official support
from some, or silent support or misinterest from
others), announcement which stayed there for nearly 24
hours before Curry removed it for being
non-encyclopedic.
However, this argument doesnot hold any more if the
announcement is clearly set in the community area :-)

Anyway, the new homepage is welcomed, and the
refactoring opened quite a few wide areas, on which
all french-speaking are invited to get wild.

Anth?re

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


body:
Geoff Burling wrote:

> In other words, we should expect a number of edit wars between
> German chauvinists & Polish chauvinists to occur over territories that
> were formerly part of Germany for the foreseeable future?

No. The articles about Gdansk/Danzig and Szczecin/Stettin are findable under their
Polish names (Gdansk, Szczecin), and that's fine, because these are now Polish cities. As
for Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa, these are common German-Polish rivers, so I don't see,
why the name "Oder" should be forgotten in the future, as Space Cadet predicted.

What do you think about that solution: call it "Oder" in articles relating to German regions
(Lower Oder Valley National Park), call it "Odra" in articles relating to Polish regions
(Szczecin). The article about the river itself is titled with one of these names, and the other
name is stated in the first sentence of that article. The same should be done for
Neisse/Nysa. And everyone can be happy again ;-)

So, my vote is to leave the main article where it is now: "Odra", since there are greater
portions of the river in Poland. If you agree, I change the name for the German regions
back to "Oder" and link it to "Odra". The same may be done for Neisse/Nysa.

If you agree, I will place this (or another) compromise on the Odra talk page, in order to
refer everyone begining the dispute anew to that page.

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


from_name: Zoe

body:
As I said yesterday, I doubt that there are many English speakers who ever heard of Odra.
Zoe
 Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:Mirko Thiessen wrote:
> What do you think about that solution: call it "Oder" in articles
> relating to German regions (Lower Oder Valley National Park), call
> it "Odra" in articles relating to Polish regions (Szczecin).

Is this common practice in English?

> So, my vote is to leave the main article where it is now: "Odra",
> since there are greater portions of the river in Poland.

The location of the river is one factor in determining what we should
call it in English, but not the only factor. We know the name in
Polish, and the name in German, but the question of what the name
"really" is in English seems to be primarily a question of common
usage.

It seems like this river is not widely talked about in English at all
(based on my web searches), so it probably doesn't matter a great deal
either way. :-)

--Jimbo

_______________________________________________
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body:
|From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>
|Content-Disposition: inline
|Sender: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 03:48:06 -0800
|
|Mirko Thiessen wrote:
|> What do you think about that solution: call it "Oder" in articles
|> relating to German regions (Lower Oder Valley National Park), call
|> it "Odra" in articles relating to Polish regions (Szczecin).
|
|Is this common practice in English?
|
|> So, my vote is to leave the main article where it is now: "Odra",
|> since there are greater portions of the river in Poland.
|
|The location of the river is one factor in determining what we should
|call it in English, but not the only factor.  We know the name in
|Polish, and the name in German, but the question of what the name
|"really" is in English seems to be primarily a question of common
|usage.
|
|It seems like this river is not widely talked about in English at all
|(based on my web searches), so it probably doesn't matter a great deal
|either way.  :-)

Unfortunately, the Oder and Niesse are important in 20th century
history due to their role in settling the border between Germany and
Poland.  The Oder-Neisse line was part of the Iron Curtain.  It was a
great concession to Poland to draw the line there, as it meant that
Danzig (now Gdansk) was unequivocally part of Poland.  When
right-wingers talk about the "give-aways" of the Yalta conference, the
Oder-Neisse line is one of the big ones.

Google has 1100 hits on Oder-Neisse line, and 12 hits (all in Polish)
on Odra-Nysa.  Wikipedia does not have an entry [[Oder-Niesse line]]
but other encyclopedias do.  However, Wikipedia has numerous mentions
of the Oder-Niesse line, such as in [[German reunification]].

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88

|
|--Jimbo
|
|_______________________________________________
|WikiEN-l mailing list
|WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
|


from_name: Toby Bartels

body:
Ortolan88 wrote:

>Well, the trick would be a lot more tricky and useful if some genius
>converted the various [[German language]] links to [[German
>(language)]] so we wouldn't have to type [[German language|German]]
>all the time.   (And [[Spanish language]] and [[Latin language]] etc.)

I've created quite a few of these already as redirects.
I would support moving [[German language]] to [[German (language)]], period;
but in the meantime, you can still link [[German (language)|]] if you like,
because [[German (language)]] redirects to [[German language]].
(And if you find one that doesn't redirect, then make it!)

-- Toby


body:
Mav149 wrote:

>Brion VIBBER wrote:

>>Wouldn't it be more sensible if [[kingdom (biology)]]
>>_automatically_ displayed as "kingdom", and in the
>>much rarer cases we had to add a pipe to force the
>>long form?

>Yes that would be much more sensible and unless there
>is an objection I say go ahead and implement it (with
>the proper announcements to Wikipedia News on meta of
>course).

Given that it's just a pipe each way,
we shouldn't switch the behaviour of the trick.
People are used to writing [[Kingdom (biology)]]
(in disambiguation pages and disambiguation blocks),
and most people will never see the announcement
that the behaviour of this has been changed.
This idea would work at the beginning,
but changing it now will confuse the majority of participants,
who don't read the mailing list or meta.

>What would also be nice is to extend the pipe trick
>for comma titles. IMO to follow the logic of your
>proposed change [[Auburn, California]] would
>automatically become [[Auburn, California | Auburn]]
>but that may brake many links that already intend to
>display the whole link name. So just to make linking
>easier for at least those in the know perhaps
>[[Auburn, California | ]] could be displayed as just
><u>Auburn</u> but in the wiki code it could still be
>[[Auburn, California | ]] so that newbies can figure
>out the trick. Yeah I know this would be inconsistent
>with the proposed change in how the pipe trick works
>with parentheticals but it is still tedious to type
>[[Auburn, California | Auburn]] all the time.

In the case of [[Auburn, California]], [[German language]],
and other situations where our naming conventions
don't follow the usual rules for disambiguation with parentheses,
you can set up redirects like [[Auburn (California)]]
and link to those with the pipe trick [[Auburn (California)|]].
Of course, the first time that you do this, the redirect won't exist,
and you'll have to create it; and if [[Auburn, California]]
doesn't exist yet (cities always do, but languages and other things don't),
then you won't be able to do this.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: HomePage

body:
--- Richard Grevers <dramatic at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:27:40 -0800 (PST), Anthere
> <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello !
> >
> > I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage
> at
> > http://fr.wikipedia.org/
> >
>
> Hi Anth?re,
> You have two errors in the other languages code:
> &;#954; in Greek (extra semicolon)
> and &#26085; in Japanese (& turned into an
> entity).
> Are there browsers which are actually correcting
> these?
>
> --
> Richard Grevers

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the tip...I am probably responsible for
this as my favorite browser is very hungry for > and <
(it changes them in to &) in particular

When it is in relation with <font>, I see the typo and
try to correct it.

When it is in an international link, I never touch
anything for my browser doesnot read this caracters
anyway, so I can't distinguish the good from the bad
;-)

Usually, I wait for someone to fix things for me :-)

I'll put your comment in the talk page... thanx alot

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
--- Tom Parmenter <tompar at world.std.com> wrote:
>
> Anth?re writes:
>
> |
> |I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage
> at
> |http://fr.wikipedia.org/
> |
>
> I see that the French main page manages to stumble
> along with only
> *one* list of Wikipedias in other languages while
> the English
> Wikipedia has three lists, of varying content, at
> the top, bottom, and
> righthand side of the main page.  If we add a
> language list on the
> lefthand side of the English main page, they could
> play bridge.
>
> Tom Parmenter
> Ortolan88

You raise an important point Tom

Previously, we had the three places for the languages.
As one of us is a linguist, he insisted that all the
links (to all the languages) should be placed on top
(and consequently at the bottom)...it took half of the
window on the small screens...which was embarassing.

When we changed the design, all these languages were
removed from the top. Some said it was either all of
them or none.
So, we only kept them in the community block

You will notice that the international links are in
regular font size, not in small size as on the english
wiki.

I would not object if the links were also at the
bottom as before, or if a drop-down would allow access
to all languages without taking too much space.
Suggestions ?

Notice that in bridge, there's a dead...

Anthere

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body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>
>This is not directed specifically at you Mirko, but;
>The idea that there is "one true name" of /anything/ is a total fallacy. Names
>are not intrinsically linked to subjects - all they are, are abstractions
>that the human mind uses in order to index and store data connected to the
>subject.
>

That is what I said. I just replied to this true-name-argument, which was stated on the
relating talk pages.

>
>This is already covered by:
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English) and
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names)
>

Yes, but I thought, that there was a dispute on what is the common name in this case.

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
At 10:27 AM 2/19/03 -0800, Anthere wrote:
>Hello !
>
>I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage at
>http://fr.wikipedia.org/
>
>We went over quite many transformations, and I think
>we are still not done with all of them yet :-)

My French is poor, but it looks good.

<snip>

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
Anth?re writes:

|
|I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage at
|http://fr.wikipedia.org/
|

I see that the French main page manages to stumble along with only
*one* list of Wikipedias in other languages while the English
Wikipedia has three lists, of varying content, at the top, bottom, and
righthand side of the main page.  If we add a language list on the
lefthand side of the English main page, they could play bridge.

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Sunday Herald Sun -- Australia

body:
The Melbourne Herald Sun, which bills itself as "Australia's biggest
selling daily newspaper," will be running a big article about
wikipedia in Sunday's Herald Sun.

There will be a photo of me, so if anyone down under wants to get a
copy and send it to me (for my mom!) that'd be great.

And we might want to "staff up" for Sunday morning, in case of a rush
of newcomers...  I know I'll pop in a few times throughout the day to
meet and greet.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
Anthere wrote:

>Hello !
>
>I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage at
>http://fr.wikipedia.org/
>
>We went over quite many transformations, and I think
>we are still not done with all of them yet :-)
>
Une belle pr?sentation!
Ec


body:
Toby Bartels wrote:

>Ortolan88 wrote:
>
>>Well, the trick would be a lot more tricky and useful if some genius
>>converted the various [[German language]] links to [[German
>>(language)]] so we wouldn't have to type [[German language|German]]
>>all the time.   (And [[Spanish language]] and [[Latin language]] etc.)
>>
>
>I've created quite a few of these already as redirects.
>I would support moving [[German language]] to [[German (language)]], period;
>but in the meantime, you can still link [[German (language)|]] if you like,
>because [[German (language)]] redirects to [[German language]].
>(And if you find one that doesn't redirect, then make it!)
>
Way back when we were arguing about hoe to disambiguate place names,
knowing the "pipe trick" would have swayed my vote in favour of [[Paris
(Texas)|]] instead of [[Paris, Texas]].

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
Anthere wrote:

>I would not object if the links were also at the
>bottom as before, or if a drop-down would allow access
>to all languages without taking too much space.
>Suggestions ?
>
In Wiktionary the language list is currently at the top on the [[Recent
changes]].  This and other things take up a fair amount of space with
the result that only the first four items of recent changes appear in a
full screen before one needs to scroll down.  Could the list of
languages be moved to the quick bar at the side.

>
>Notice that in bridge, there's a dead...
>
I know that "le mort" is the correct term in French, but the literal
translation doesn't work here. In English we call it "the dummy".

Eclecticology


body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>The Melbourne Herald Sun, which bills itself as "Australia's biggest
>selling daily newspaper," will be running a big article about
>wikipedia in Sunday's Herald Sun.
>
>There will be a photo of me, so if anyone down under wants to get a
>copy and send it to me (for my mom!) that'd be great.
>
Under the circumstances, you'd think that the paper itself should send
you a complimentary copy.

>And we might want to "staff up" for Sunday morning, in case of a rush
>of newcomers...  I know I'll pop in a few times throughout the day to
>meet and greet.
>
That's Australian time.  When does it hit the streets in North American
time?

Ec.

>


from_name: jakob.voss at s1999.tu-chemnitz.de

subject: [Wikitech-l] hack for disambiguation/topic articles

body:
hi there!

Articles names of special topics often contain the topic in parenthesis for
disambiguation. The "pipe trick" automatically hides the stuff in parentheses
but if I have a lot of links between pages of the same topic I still have to
type the stuff in the parenthesis :-(

For instance in an article about "tree (graph theory)":

  A '''tree''' is a [[graph (graph theory)|]]
  that is [[connected (Graph theory)|]] and has
  no simple [[cycle (Graph theory)|]]s.

I'd like a little hack that automatically adds the same topic that is used in
the article title. This could be done via empty parenthesis because there is no
article that has "()" in its title. In the example above:

  A '''tree''' is a [[graph()|]]
  that is [[connected()|]] and has
  no simple [[cycle()|]]s.

For multiple articles of one topic this would be really helpfull and prevents
adding links to disambiguation pages. What do you think?

thanks a lot,
  Jakob Vo?


body:
> I'd like a little hack that automatically adds the same topic that is used
> in the article title. This could be done via empty parenthesis because there
> is no article that has "()" in its title. In the example above:

Great idea! I suggest a simplified syntax, though, something like

[[cycle^]]

=>

[[cycle (graph theory)|cycle]]

(But do NOT turn it into that after saving, just render it when needed.)

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Wed, Feb 19, 2003 at 10:14:00PM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > I'd like a little hack that automatically adds the same topic that is used
> > in the article title. This could be done via empty parenthesis because there
> > is no article that has "()" in its title. In the example above:
>
> Great idea! I suggest a simplified syntax, though, something like
>
> [[cycle^]]
>
> =>
>
> [[cycle (graph theory)|cycle]]
>
> (But do NOT turn it into that after saving, just render it when needed.)

Seems like a lot of English-specific syntax is being introduced.
I'm just reminding you - do not overdo with it.
In lot of languages you usually have to use full [[foo|bar]] because of
flexion anyway, so this is just weird abuse of syntax for us.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
> >Notice that in bridge, there's a dead...
> >
> I know that "le mort" is the correct term in French,
> but the literal
> translation doesn't work here. In English we call it
> "the dummy".
>
> Eclecticology

quite amazing the number of things I am learning in
Wikipedia...

the dummy...thanks Ec !

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> > Hello !
>
> > I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage
> at
> > http://fr.wikipedia.org/
>
> I like the French design. One thing it demonstrates
> quite well is how
> protecting pages reduces the potential for progress.
> I checked the
> history: the French design is the result of a fairly
> amazing evolution,
> which is not possible on the English Wikipedia
> because the main page is
> protected.
>
> I, Mav and Enchanter have been experimenting with
> using similar colored
> tables for the English main page. One problem I have
> with the current
> French design is while the colors are pretty, they
> don't seem to mean
> much. Maybe the yellow that is used for
> special+talk+wikipedia pages
> should come to be identified with the community.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

Yup, several putschs to change that page...

Yes, why not having the backgroud of meta pages green
instead of yellow...just as the community area on the
main page...

And we have not agreed on the announcement part yet...

Plenty of room for improvement ;-)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
Erik wrote:
>I like the French design. One thing it demonstrates
>quite well is how protecting pages reduces the
>potential for progress. I checked the history: the
>French design is the result of a fairly amazing
>evolution, which is not possible on the English
>Wikipedia because the main page is protected.

What? Formatting ideas for en.wiki's Main Page are worked out on the
unprotected Main /Temp Page at
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page/Temp . The new design that went live
on Wikipedia Day was worked on by about a dozen different people - most of
whom were not sysops.

So except for the daily updates to the Selected Articles section, the en.wiki
Main Page is effectively editable by anybody. However we don't update the
live Main Page until the development version has stabilized. That is how it
should be /even if/ we had the live Main Page world-editable.

>I, Mav and Enchanter have been experimenting
>with using similar colored tables for the English main
>page. One problem I have with the current  French
>design is while the colors are pretty, they don't seem
>to mean much. Maybe the yellow that is used for
>special+talk+wikipedia pages should come to be
>identified with the community.

That is how the development version of the en.wiki Main Page is set-up
already. See: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page/Temp

I'm not totally thrilled with the background color for the Selected Articles
box since the light blue doesn't mean anything and is only there to be
pretty. But removing that background color makes for a sterile Main Page
again (except for the light yellow background for the Community area) .

Perhaps we could artificially make light blue meaningful by having the
"official" colors of en.wiki be white, blue and yellow (white for articles,
blue for hyperlinks and yellow for "community pages"). And while we are at it
we could also develop a mascot and a flag. :-)

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
Added a bunch of events to [[February 15]]; updated all the year pages and
many of the other articles linked from that page.


subject: [Wikitech-l] LJ article co-author?


subject: [Wikitech-l] LJ co-author?

body:
Don Marti, editor of Linux Journal, contacted me about doing an
article on wikipedia for LJ.  I wrote back with a couple of
proposals, and they chose the one described here:

> Another article might be a technical article about how we're handling
> our growth using all open source software, and the specific software
> challenges of an open collaborative writing project.  We could use
> more developers, and obviously an interesting article about our
> software might bring us some wonderful new talent.
>
> I'm the guy to write the first article, but I'm not our best technical
> guy, so I'd want to co-author the second article with one of our
> developers, which might take a bit longer.

Would someone like to volunteer to co-author the second article?

It probably makes the most sense to have someone do this who has
really dirty hands from the code.  My guess is that an LJ publication
is a nice resume enhancer.

--Jimbo


from_name: Jay Bowks

subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
> Perhaps we could artificially make light blue meaningful by having the
> "official" colors of en.wiki be white, blue and yellow (white for
articles,
> blue for hyperlinks and yellow for "community pages"). And while we are at
it
> we could also develop a mascot and a flag. :-)

A native Hawaiian critter would be neat!
but whats this about a "flag" why would
we need a flag, does Linux have a flag?
Hmmm... The penguin thing is very clever.
Something like that for Wiki would be
very welcome, the French Wiki has
a Peace Dove if I understand the symbol
correctly, anything to do with quick "wiki
wiki", what do you think?

Since,
Jay B.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
> Hello !

> I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage at
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/

I like the French design. One thing it demonstrates quite well is how
protecting pages reduces the potential for progress. I checked the
history: the French design is the result of a fairly amazing evolution,
which is not possible on the English Wikipedia because the main page is
protected.

I, Mav and Enchanter have been experimenting with using similar colored
tables for the English main page. One problem I have with the current
French design is while the colors are pretty, they don't seem to mean
much. Maybe the yellow that is used for special+talk+wikipedia pages
should come to be identified with the community.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: HomePage

body:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:27:40 -0800 (PST), Anthere
<anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello !
>
> I just wanted to introduce you to our new HomePage at
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/
>

Hi Anth?re,
You have two errors in the other languages code:
&;#954; in Greek (extra semicolon)
and &#26085; in Japanese (& turned into an entity).
Are there browsers which are actually correcting these?

--
Richard Grevers


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
Youandme wrote:

>A native Hawaiian critter (a symbol of Hawaii)
>is nene, a kind of goose. But when one looks
>at it, no impression of "wiki wiki" at all
>(rather the opposite) but Linux's experience
>shows that there is no problem with that :-)
>
>Maybe a cross between dolphin (MySQL),
>penguin (Linux), .... (PHP), nene (wiki)
>with some feathers (from Apache)? ;-)
>
>Who knows how this creature looks like
>and what it's name is?
>
>My first guess was: crane.
>The second: kingfisher
>(that one is really fast and dive a lot).
>
Could anything be done with the newly discovered small dinosaur that had
feathers on both front and back limbs? :-)

Eclecticology


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
|From: Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com>
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:35:05 -0800 (PST)
|
|
|--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
|> Anthere wrote:
|> >Notice that in bridge, there's a dead...
|> >
|> I know that "le mort" is the correct term in French,
|> but the literal
|> translation doesn't work here. In English we call it
|> "the dummy".
|>
|> Eclecticology
|
|quite amazing the number of things I am learning in
|Wikipedia...
|
|the dummy...thanks Ec !
|


from_name: Leonard Tulipan

subject: [Wikitech-l] INSTALL Docs lacking CVS How-to

body:
Hi there!
I am fairly new to wiki's, but I like them :-)
I am also quite new to CVS, so I had a rough 30 Minutes until I figured
out/googled the correct command to get the current wikipedia codebase.

Could someone with write permission please change,

http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/ to point to the INSTALL-Document in
CVS
AND
Update
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/wikipedia/phpwiki/newcodebase/INSTALL
To not just say "chekout the code in CVS", but actually put in the
commands. I found them in the german wikipedia, and have since updated
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PHP_script (the english Version
of that page)

I hope I didn't do something overly stupid.

Thanks and keep up the good work

Ciao
Leo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
 Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Erik wrote:
>I like the French design. One thing it demonstrates
>quite well is how protecting pages reduces the
>potential for progress. I checked the history: the
>French design is the result of a fairly amazing
>evolution, which is not possible on the English
>Wikipedia because the main page is protected.

What? Formatting ideas for en.wiki's Main Page are worked out on the
unprotected Main /Temp Page at
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page/Temp . The new design that went live
on Wikipedia Day was worked on by about a dozen different people - most of
whom were not sysops.

So except for the daily updates to the Selected Articles section, the en.wiki
Main Page is effectively editable by anybody. However we don't update the
live Main Page until the development version has stabilized. That is how it
should be /even if/ we had the live Main Page world-editable.

---------

Most of the design work out was done in a temp page of course. Much clever to lay down the principles, then clear out the bugs in another page than the main page.

but...

my proposition to change headings and items was highly related to the very active changes made on the main page itself, by the various contributors, in particular newbies.

Some changes were made by old hands, and reverted by other old hands who disagreed. Some changes were also made by newbies who thought important other topics than the ones listed on the main page.
It is because I saw the page being *alive, edited, reverted* etc...that I realised it would maybe be a good idea to propose *some* changes.

If the main page was protected, I would not have seen these needs and representations from other people, carrying a different history than we do.
Maybe they would have left, and it would have been a loss for Wikip?dia. Maybe they would just have dropped a word in the discussion page, waiting for others to *approve* (or blankly reject - as if they had the unique authority to do so) their request, waiting for others to carry on a task they could very well have assumed themselves.

When someone wants to add a link on the french main page, be it a new item in the headings, or a new article in the selected articles, he may do so. If someone doesnot like the link, he may remove it. Then, both are free to go in an add/remove link war as they wish, or to discuss it.

Being a sysop or not does not have any impact. The one adding may or may not be a sysop. The one removing may or may not be a sysop. No one is *submitted* to the good will of a sysop. No one has to first convince a sysop for a link to be added or to be removed. And everyone can remove the link a sysop added.

Our main page is maybe broken more often than the en one. But even if our number of contributors is very small compared to the number of english contributors, the main page is edited by more people than the english main page. I think it better that way.

And that's also why I *never* proposed any links for the english main page.

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] OT french words in chess

body:
 Chuck Smith <msochuck at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I know that "le mort" is the correct term in French,
> but the literal
> translation doesn't work here. In English we call it
> "the dummy".

Well...I like "le mort" better than the "dummy". It's a more lively term ;-)

I still think the funniest game term in French is that
in chess the French call the bishop, fou (crazy
person). In Esperanto, it's called kuriero (the
messenger). I learned that when I was in France,
playing chess in Esperanto... heh Maybe we could put
something in the chess article about the etymologies
of those names... ;-)

It is crazy because it is walking in diagonals....

But in truth, bishops do too...

Notice the queen is not in a good shape either...

I heard that the bishop increased his power from two
squares diagonally when the church increased in power,
but this wouldn't make sense based on the French name
of the piece... and at that time I think French was
the language of chess... (maybe it still is!)

Did you read the "echiquier du mal" from Dan Simmons ? Absolutely amazing book !

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
> What? Formatting ideas for en.wiki's Main Page are worked out on the
> unprotected Main /Temp Page at
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page/Temp . The new design that went live
> on Wikipedia Day was worked on by about a dozen different people - most of
> whom were not sysops.

...

> That is how the development version of the en.wiki Main Page is set-up
> already. See: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page/Temp

I know that both, Mav. My problem is that, while a temp editable page is
nice, unless you catch it in RC, you can't know that it exists. See also
my earlier posting "Getting rid of protected pages".

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: HomePage

body:
Erik wrote:

>I know that both, Mav. My problem is that,
>while a temp editable page is nice, unless
>you catch it in RC, you can't know that it
>exists. See also my earlier posting "Getting
>rid of protected pages".
>
>Regards,
>
>Erik

OK that is easy to fix: Just change the text that now
says "Protected Page" to non-Admins to "Development
Version" and make that a link to Main Page/Temp. The
same thing can be setup for all the other protected
pages too. No fancy delayed submit needed.

--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero (new)

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: HomePage

body:
Jay wrote:
>Daniel Mayer wrote:
>>Perhaps we could artificially make
>>light blue meaningful by having the
>>"official" colors of en.wiki be white,
>>blue and yellow (white for articles,
>>blue for hyperlinks and yellow for
>>"community"). And while we are at it
>>we could also develop a mascot and a
>>flag. :-)
>
>A native Hawaiian critter would be neat!
>but whats this about a "flag" why would
>we need a flag, does Linux have a flag?
>Hmmm... The penguin thing is very clever.
>Something like that for Wiki would be
>very welcome, the French Wiki has
>a Peace Dove if I understand the symbol
>correctly, anything to do with quick "wiki
>wiki", what do you think?
>
>Since,
>Jay B.

I love the Hawaiian critter idea! One problem though:
sadly most 'native' Hawaiian animals are either
endangered or extinct while Wikipedia is far from
either - we are thriving. This may take a good deal of
research, luck and a damn good artist.

A flag isn't as important - [[Wikipedia is not]] a
micronation. ;-)

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma:
I updated all the year pages and many of the other
articles linked from [[February 16]].

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from_name: Jason Williams

subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
On Thu, Feb 20, 2003 at 06:07:32AM -0500, Jay Bowks wrote:
> From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
> > we could also develop a mascot and a flag. :-)
> Something like that for Wiki would be
> very welcome, the French Wiki has
> a Peace Dove if I understand the symbol
> correctly, anything to do with quick "wiki
> wiki", what do you think?

How about an Owl? Or is associating owls with wisdom not NPOV
and culture-neutral? :-)

--

jason at jasonandali.org.uk    http://www.jasonandali.org.uk/jason/


body:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:45:23 -0800 (PST), Zoe
<zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> The location of the river is one factor in determining what we should
> call it in English, but not the only factor. We know the name in
> Polish, and the name in German, but the question of what the name
> "really" is in English seems to be primarily a question of common
> usage.
>
> It seems like this river is not widely talked about in English at all
> (based on my web searches), so it probably doesn't matter a great deal
> either way. :-)
>
I've only heard of it as Oder (Crossword clue: River in Europe)

--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Youandme

subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
On 20 Feb 2003 at 6:07, Jay Bowks wrote:
> From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
> > we could also develop a mascot and a flag. :-)
>
> A native Hawaiian critter would be neat!
> but whats this about a "flag" why would
> we need a flag, does Linux have a flag?
> Hmmm... The penguin thing is very clever.
> Something like that for Wiki would be
> very welcome, the French Wiki has
> a Peace Dove if I understand the symbol
> correctly, anything to do with quick "wiki
> wiki", what do you think?

A native Hawaiian critter (a symbol of Hawaii)
is nene, a kind of goose. But when one looks
at it, no impression of "wiki wiki" at all
(rather the opposite) but Linux's experience
shows that there is no problem with that :-)

Maybe a cross between dolphin (MySQL),
penguin (Linux), .... (PHP), nene (wiki)
with some feathers (from Apache)? ;-)

Who knows how this creature looks like
and what it's name is?

My first guess was: crane.
The second: kingfisher
(that one is really fast and dive a lot).

Youandme


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: HomePage

body:
On Thu, 2003-02-20 at 15:33, Daniel Mayer wrote:

> OK that is easy to fix: Just change the text that now
> says "Protected Page" to non-Admins to "Development
> Version" and make that a link to Main Page/Temp. The
> same thing can be setup for all the other protected
> pages too. No fancy delayed submit needed.
>
The better solution is to automate the process of sysopping people.


from_name: Chuck Smith

subject: [Wikipedia-l] OT french words in chess

body:
> I know that "le mort" is the correct term in French,
> but the literal
> translation doesn't work here. In English we call it
> "the dummy".

I still think the funniest game term in French is that
in chess the French call the bishop, fou (crazy
person).  In Esperanto, it's called kuriero (the
messenger).  I learned that when I was in France,
playing chess in Esperanto... heh  Maybe we could put
something in the chess article about the etymologies
of those names...  ;-)

I heard that the bishop increased his power from two
squares diagonally when the church increased in power,
but this wouldn't make sense based on the French name
of the piece... and at that time I think French was
the language of chess... (maybe it still is!)

Chuck

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! M?viles
Personaliza tu m?vil con tu logo y melod?a favorito
en http://moviles.yahoo.es


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
On ?a?, 2003-02-20 at 21:08, Erik Moeller wrote:
> I also think that any mascot we
> choose should reflect the fact that we are a cooperative, social project,
> in other words, it should be a social animal or insect.

Wikipedia is a virus -- it infects every cell of your being and hijacks
your mental processes to reproduce itself. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
Well, if we want cooperatives, how about coral?
Zoe
 Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:If there's consensus that we want a mascot, I suggest putting a call for
suggestions on all the mainpages, with a link to an English page on Meta.
That might seem like overkill, but I really think we should use the wiki
process here. There are many species -- prehistoric animals, insects,
animals living only in a single, small world region -- which are largely
unknown, yet unbelievably photogenic. I also think that any mascot we
choose should reflect the fact that we are a cooperative, social project,
in other words, it should be a social animal or insect. Dolphins, whales,
ants, bees etc. all work nicely. Of course, we could also choose a monkey
sitting behind a typewriter ;-)

With a cooperative process, who knows what we might come up with.

This is also, like the logo, a case where we eventually need to set up a
vote, period.

Regards,

Erik
_______________________________________________
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Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] HomePage

body:
From: "Youandme" <wikipedia at wp.pl>
> A native Hawaiian critter (a symbol of Hawaii)
> is nene, a kind of goose. But when one looks
> at it, no impression of "wiki wiki" at all
> (rather the opposite) but Linux's experience
> shows that there is no problem with that :-)

You describe it really well. A friend of
mine just got back from a month long
holiday in Hawaii, and hiked up volcanos
and all and there were all these pictures
he took, well, in some he had these strange
brownish looking geese-like birds, they
were not very impressive and he said they
were quite docile and unassuming... not
much of a wiki attitude, eh? :-)))

> The second: kingfisher

Hmm, will have to look at what a
kingfisher pic would look like in
a logo, I'll go fish one out of a
book, that is, in our School Lib.
I'll ask for a few volunteer students
to get pics of one, they love these
hunt activities :-)

Since,
Jay B.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bandwidth and anon ips

body:
On dim, 2003-02-16 at 20:11, s wrote:
> Would it make sense, as I've been experiencing bandwidth limitations, on
> occasion, (assuming the problem may be general) to limit, by some ratio, the
> server request speed to anon users, and thereby allowing logged in users
> some degree of greater access?

I'm afraid there's not much we can do about your bandwidth limitations;
that's between you and your ISP.

(No, actually there is -- we could compress sent pages. I'll consider
trying this in the future, once apache/php are reinstalled with gzip
support built in. However this will use some cpu power, and I don't know
how this will affect server speed at this point.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sunday Herald Sun -- Australia

body:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:52:51 -0800, Ray Saintonge
<saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>> The Melbourne Herald Sun, which bills itself as "Australia's biggest
>> selling daily newspaper," will be running a big article about
>> wikipedia in Sunday's Herald Sun.
>>
>> There will be a photo of me, so if anyone down under wants to get a
>> copy and send it to me (for my mom!) that'd be great.
>>
> Under the circumstances, you'd think that the paper itself should send
> you a complimentary copy.
>
>> And we might want to "staff up" for Sunday morning, in case of a rush
>> of newcomers...  I know I'll pop in a few times throughout the day to
>> meet and greet.
>>
> That's Australian time.  When does it hit the streets in North American
> time?
>
Saturday afternoon/Evening

--
Richard Grevers


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
--- Youandme <wikipedia at wp.pl> wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2003 at 6:08, Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> > I also
> > think that any mascot we  choose should reflect
> the fact that we are a
> > cooperative, social project,  in other words, it
> should be a social
> > animal or insect. Dolphins, whales,  ants, bees
> etc. all work nicely.
>
> Leming (or rather a herd of lemings)
>
> Youandme

ants would be perfect

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
--- Jason Williams <jason at jasonandali.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 06:08:00AM +0100, Erik
> Moeller wrote:
> > This is also, like the logo, a case where we
> eventually need to set up a
> > vote, period.
>
> It is? If so, it should certainly be a vote among
> sysops, since a
> "public" vote would have far too fuzzy a
> constituency.
>
> --
> jason at jasonandali.org.uk

yup
And what about only one vote given to each langage ?
With veto option of course :-)

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] OT echiquier du mal

body:
--- Chuck Smith <msochuck at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Did you read the "echiquier du mal" from Dan
> Simmons
> > ? Absolutely amazing book !
>
> Hmmm... you should write something about it on
> bookshelved.org.  I met the owner of that weekend
> when
> I visited Paris...  So, this book will go on my list
> of books to read if I ever learn French.  :-)  I
> really want to read _Le defi des langues - Du gachis
> au bon sens_ by Claude Piron as well... there's also
> a
> book in Dutch I want to read, but I can't remember
> the
> title...
>
> Chuck

nono Chuck, Dan Simmons is not french ;-)
I found my own book. The original title appears to be
"Carrion Confort" (funny title...unusual titles are so
different). It really is an interesting book

for more

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446359203/qid=1045831598/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-4269944-7839342?v=glance&s=books

anthere

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
--- Youandme <wikipedia at wp.pl> wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2003 at 4:29, Anthere wrote:
>
> > ants would be perfect
>
> Other people noticed that they are perfect too.
> See http://ant.apache.org/
> and their logo
>
> Youandme

Crumbs, too late...

What about a threatened flower then ? :-)

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from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
If there's consensus that we want a mascot, I suggest putting a call for
suggestions on all the mainpages, with a link to an English page on Meta.
That might seem like overkill, but I really think we should use the wiki
process here. There are many species -- prehistoric animals, insects,
animals living only in a single, small world region -- which are largely
unknown, yet unbelievably photogenic. I also think that any mascot we
choose should reflect the fact that we are a cooperative, social project,
in other words, it should be a social animal or insect. Dolphins, whales,
ants, bees etc. all work nicely. Of course, we could also choose a monkey
sitting behind a typewriter ;-)

With a cooperative process, who knows what we might come up with.

This is also, like the logo, a case where we eventually need to set up a
vote, period.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikitech-l] A Line in LocalSettings.php

body:
What's this all about?

$wgDBminWordLen        = 3;       # Match this to your MySQL fulltext

Fred


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia mascot

in_reply_to: <200302211557.KAA31951@TheWorld.com>; from tompar@world.std.com on Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 10:57:44AM -0500

body:
Tom Parmenter wrote:
> seriously, isn't the monkey behind the typewriter exactly right?

:-) I like it, anyway.  I'm not voting for it, necessarily, but I'm
fond of it.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 06:08:00AM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote:
> This is also, like the logo, a case where we eventually need to set up a
> vote, period.

It is? If so, it should certainly be a vote among sysops, since a
"public" vote would have far too fuzzy a constituency.

--
jason at jasonandali.org.uk    http://www.jasonandali.org.uk/jason/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Alphabetical article index

body:
Brion VIBBER wrote in part:

>Other things: currently the list includes redirects. Some redirects
>should definitely stay -- alternate names that would not appear near
>each other, for instance. Others (spelling, caps variations) could maybe
>be dropped, but that's harder to do consistently. Or more simply, we
>could just italicize redirects or something.

I favour using #DEPRECATED in addition to #REDIRECT.
This would be used for misspellings, CamelCase, etc,
while #REDIRECT would be kept for alternate titles
that might well appear in page text but for whatever reason
(naming conventions, arbitrary choices) aren't the page title.

For the most part, these would behave the same,
but we can distinguish them in indexes of this sort.
We can also do a special maintenance search for
links to #DEPRECATED pages, since these will usually
(not quite always, however) be a mistake in the page's text.
To begin with, there will be no #DEPRECATED pages,
but whenever we notice (say) CamelCase in the Allpages list,
then we know that there's a #REDIRECT to change to #DEPRECATED.

-- Toby


from_name: sjc at easynet.co.uk

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
Dangerous. As a sysop I would definitely be voting for the monkey behind the
typewriter option....

rgds

Steve

Quoting Jason Williams <jason at jasonandali.org.uk>:

> On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 06:08:00AM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > This is also, like the logo, a case where we eventually need to set up a
> > vote, period.
>
> It is? If so, it should certainly be a vote among sysops, since a
> "public" vote would have far too fuzzy a constituency.
>
> --
> jason at jasonandali.org.uk    http://www.jasonandali.org.uk/jason/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

---------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.easynetdial.co.uk


from_name: Tom Parmenter

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia mascot

in_reply_to:
<oprkxyg0smk4g8ki@news.gmane.org> (message from Richard Grevers
	on Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:06:26 +1300)

body:
seriously, isn't the monkey behind the typewriter exactly right?

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88


from_name: Neil Harris

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>On dim, 2003-02-16 at 20:11, s wrote:
>
>
>>Would it make sense, as I've been experiencing bandwidth limitations, on
>>occasion, (assuming the problem may be general) to limit, by some ratio, the
>>server request speed to anon users, and thereby allowing logged in users
>>some degree of greater access?
>>
>>
>
>I'm afraid there's not much we can do about your bandwidth limitations;
>that's between you and your ISP.
>
>(No, actually there is -- we could compress sent pages. I'll consider
>trying this in the future, once apache/php are reinstalled with gzip
>support built in. However this will use some cpu power, and I don't know
>how this will affect server speed at this point.)
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>

Both CPUs are typically running about 75% busy at the moment. (50% user,
25% system), and quite often intermittently peaking to 100%.

However, system performance is nice and smooth nearly all the time, so
the worst database bottlenecks appear to have been ironed out.

When the system moves to separate machines for the database and
webserver, the load should fall dramatically: that might be the right
time to enable gzipping.

Neil


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bandwidth and anon ips


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
On 21 Feb 2003 at 6:08, Erik Moeller wrote:

> I also
> think that any mascot we  choose should reflect the fact that we are a
> cooperative, social project,  in other words, it should be a social
> animal or insect. Dolphins, whales,  ants, bees etc. all work nicely.

Leming (or rather a herd of lemings)

Youandme


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
> > I also
> > think that any mascot we  choose should reflect the fact that we are a
> > cooperative, social project,  in other words, it should be a social
> > animal or insect. Dolphins, whales,  ants, bees etc. all work nicely.
>
> Leming (or rather a herd of lemings)

Lemmings aren't social at all.  I personally nominate the leaf-cutter
ant.  They're both cooperative and inventive--they invented agriculture
long before humans did, and are a model of cooperative productivity.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia mascot

body:
> (Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>):
> Tom Parmenter wrote:
> > seriously, isn't the monkey behind the typewriter exactly right?
>
> :-) I like it, anyway.  I'm not voting for it, necessarily, but I'm
> fond of it.

Yeah, it's cute; and humorous in a self-deprecating way.  But it's
really a symbol of complete randomness, not evolved complexity.
I'm sticking with the leaf-cutter ant.

If we want something humorously self-deprecating, we can switch
to the only truly eusocial mammal: the naked mole rat.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikitech-l]Re: [Wikitech-l] Swedish umlaut å, ä, and ö.

body:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Dan Koehl wrote:
> Since ? and ? which is present in the German langauges is working OK, while
> ? is the unique Swedish letter (not present in any other language?) I stille
> belive there is something with the script, and how it translates letters and
> code. Im pretty sure that somewehere in the code theres lines which makes ?
> and ? working, while ? is lacking. Am I wrong?

No, the wiki doesn't make any attempt to convert characters of input text
to html references. It does to a limited degree convert incoming URLs, so
URLs can come in either UTF-8 or the native character set. And outgoing
language links have named references turned into latin-1 bytes, and
numeric references turned into utf-8 bytes in the generated URL. But
except on the Esperanto wiki where we do some replacement of /[cghjsu]x/
into UTF-8 and vice-versa due to the limited availability of appropriate
keyboard layout drivers, text is not touched, but saved as given to us
by the submitting browser.

If you can point out a specific example, I can check the web server logs
and see what web browser is being used that might be doing this.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Fred Bauder wrote:
> What's this all about?
>
> $wgDBminWordLen        = 3;       # Match this to your MySQL fulltext

MySQL's FULLTEXT indexing is used for the search function; the index by
default ignores words shorted than some number of letters (3 or 4?).

Our search function does a primitive boolean search by parsing the search
query into words (eg, "dime a dozen" -> "dime", "a", "dozen") and doing
separate MATCH queries on each one using the index, then ANDing the
results together logically. So an article has to match all words to come
up in the results. But, the "a" is too short (and anyway a stopword --
another issue itself) and so ignored by the search; it doesn't match *any*
articles.

So, we have to know which words are going to be ignored by MySQL's
fulltext search so we can skip them. "dime a dozen" -> "dime" and "dozen".

This would go away using MySQL 4, which has a boolean search mode for its
fulltext searching, but since there are a lot of mysql3 installations out
there we'd have to keep this around as an option.

See the mySQL docs:
http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/Fulltext_Search.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
> I favour using #DEPRECATED in addition to #REDIRECT.
> This would be used for misspellings, CamelCase, etc,
> while #REDIRECT would be kept for alternate titles
> that might well appear in page text but for whatever reason
> (naming conventions, arbitrary choices) aren't the page title.
>
> For the most part, these would behave the same,
> but we can distinguish them in indexes of this sort.
> We can also do a special maintenance search for
> links to #DEPRECATED pages, since these will usually
> (not quite always, however) be a mistake in the page's text.
> To begin with, there will be no #DEPRECATED pages,
> but whenever we notice (say) CamelCase in the Allpages list,
> then we know that there's a #REDIRECT to change to #DEPRECATED.

This is an excellent suggestion; I invite the list to tell
me if they see any problems with implementing it.  If not, I'll
do it.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:
> > I'm afraid there's not much we can do about your bandwidth limitations;
> > that's between you and your ISP.
>
> I cannot confirm this statement for my case.  I'm pretty sure between
> me and my ISP is not the bottleneck.  Maybe, between my ISP and
> wikipedia, but there are many a lot hops.

In that case, bandwidth is unlikely to be the problem. Try downloading the
database dumps -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
Those are just big files, and should go down pretty fast, no interference
from MySQL or php. If bandwidth is a problem, you'll see it on these.

> > (No, actually there is -- we could compress sent pages.
>
> For most of the German pages it wouldn't help that much.  Those pages
> are rather short.

Note also that some of the special pages (orphans, most wanted,
maintenance) and other functions (page hit counters) have been disabled on
the English wikipedia (the biggest and the most visited) to reduce
thrashing on the database and keep things running until the functions are
rewritten for efficiency. These are still enabled on the other languages
where they've never been as much of a problem; but the German wiki is
getting pretty big, and pretty popular, and slow table scans of 10,000+
articles could well be slowing things down at times.

This isn't a question of network bandwidth, but of inefficient usage of
the database by the wiki software. Can you check and confirm whether using
these functions slows down or prevents access to other pages on the wiki?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia mascot

body:
> The monkey-at-typewriter symbol includes the trolls and vandals as
> contributors, not just the dutiful drones, as they do keep articles on
> the Recent Changes list and the rest of us alert.
>
> However, switching away from flesh-and-blood animals for a moment, how
> about a particularly ripe starting position in "Conway's Game of Life"
> as a mascot?

Hmm.  We'd want one that generated increasing complexity; I know there
are simple patters (like the "biloaf") that evolve into a glider gun.
Are there any patterns that generate a continuing sequence of guns?

Another suggestion in the eusocial-insect class: termites eating
through an old library dropping miscellaneous scraps of wisdom.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikipedia-l] OT echiquier du mal

body:
> Did you read the "echiquier du mal" from Dan Simmons
> ? Absolutely amazing book !

Hmmm... you should write something about it on
bookshelved.org.  I met the owner of that weekend when
I visited Paris...  So, this book will go on my list
of books to read if I ever learn French.  :-)  I
really want to read _Le defi des langues - Du gachis
au bon sens_ by Claude Piron as well... there's also a
book in Dutch I want to read, but I can't remember the
title...

Chuck

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! M?viles
Personaliza tu m?vil con tu logo y melod?a favorito
en http://moviles.yahoo.es


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia mascot

in_reply_to:
<20030221171404.GB8171@piclab.com> (message from Lee Daniel
	Crocker on Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:14:04 -0600)

body:
|From: Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com>
|Content-Disposition: inline
|X-URL: http://www.piclab.com/lee/
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:14:04 -0600
|
|> (Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>):
|> Tom Parmenter wrote:
|> > seriously, isn't the monkey behind the typewriter exactly right?
|>
|> :-) I like it, anyway.  I'm not voting for it, necessarily, but I'm
|> fond of it.
|
|Yeah, it's cute; and humorous in a self-deprecating way.  But it's
|really a symbol of complete randomness, not evolved complexity.
|I'm sticking with the leaf-cutter ant.
|
|If we want something humorously self-deprecating, we can switch
|to the only truly eusocial mammal: the naked mole rat.
|

The monkey-at-typewriter symbol includes the trolls and vandals as
contributors, not just the dutiful drones, as they do keep articles on
the Recent Changes list and the rest of us alert.

However, switching away from flesh-and-blood animals for a moment, how
about a particularly ripe starting position in "Conway's Game of Life"
as a mascot?

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88

|--
|Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
|"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
|are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
|for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC
|_______________________________________________
|Wikipedia-l mailing list
|Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
|


from_name: Dan Koehl

subject: [Wikitech-l] Swedish umlaut å, ä, and ö.

body:
I have noticed that some people from other wikipedias change our swedish ? on the Swedish Wikipedia, when they make language links. I have thought about why, and I suppose its because they see something different than we do.

In the normal HTML, our ? is written å ? is written ä and ? is written ö. Is this the present configuration in the php script, or does our strange letters confuse people so much that they change them since they look like errors in their point of view?
_________________________________________
Dan Koehl
ICQ#: 4046787
_________________________________________

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from_name: Zoe

subject: [Wikipedia-l] #DEPRECATED too technical...

body:
How abut INDIRECT?
Zoe
 Chuck Smith <msochuck at yahoo.com> wrote:> This is an excellent suggestion; I invite the list
> to tell
> me if they see any problems with implementing it.
> If not, I'll
> do it.

I agree that #DEPRECATED is a good idea, but could we
come up with a command that's a bit less *technical*
and a bit more understandable by non-native English
speakers...? I thought of #OBSOLETE or #OLD or
something similar, but I'm not sure what would be
best... any ideas? Also, it would be nice if there
were an interface so you can see all the redirects and
choose those easily which should be switched over...
at least this would still work on the non-English
Wikipedias! :-)

Chuck

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! M?viles
Personaliza tu m?vil con tu logo y melod?a favorito
en http://moviles.yahoo.es
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
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from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Swedish umlaut ?,

body:
On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 01:05:46PM +0100, Dan Koehl wrote:
> I have noticed that some people from other wikipedias change our swedish ? on the Swedish Wikipedia, when they make language links. I have thought about why, and I suppose its because they see something different than we do.
>
> In the normal HTML, our ? is written å ? is written ä and ? is written ö. Is this the present configuration in the php script, or does our strange letters confuse people so much that they change them since they look like errors in their point of view?

It's not that they do that. This may be automatically done by their browser.

BTW, we should add proper html's http-equiv meta Content-Type for charset
to all wiki pages, so that page saved to disk has charset information too.


from_name: koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] MyPasswordIsXYXY

body:
You Wrote:
>Someone uploaded something as this user. I tried the obvious password
and it
>didn't work (intending to change it to something random and promptly forget
>it). Can someone with database access make sure that the account is
unusable?
>
>phma

i changed it to a rather long password which I'm fairly certain no one will
guess.

kq


from_name: Andre Engels

body:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Dan Koehl wrote:

> I have noticed that some people from other wikipedias change our swedish ? on the Swedish Wikipedia, when they make language links. I have thought about why, and I suppose its because they see something different than we do.
>
> In the normal HTML, our ? is written å ? is written ä and ? is written ö. Is this the present configuration in the php script, or does our strange letters confuse people so much that they change them since they look like errors in their point of view?

In what way are they changed?

The most likely explanation seems to me that it is a problem of the browser.
I know from my own browser that when I go to edit a page, some non-standard
signs are being changed into question marks by the editor. Perhaps the ? is
one of those for some people?

Regarding your question about the PHP-script: No, the PHP-script leaves the
? as it is.

Possible solutions:
* Notify those users for who this happens
* Replace ? by å

Andre Engels


subject: [Wikitech-l] Swedish umlaut ?,

body:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 01:05:46PM +0100, Dan Koehl wrote:
> > I have noticed that some people from other wikipedias change our swedish ? on the Swedish Wikipedia, when they make language links. I have thought about why, and I suppose its because they see something different than we do.
> >
> > In the normal HTML, our ? is written å ? is written ä and ? is written ö. Is this the present configuration in the php script, or does our strange letters confuse people so much that they change them since they look like errors in their point of view?
>
> It's not that they do that. This may be automatically done by their browser.

And by Tomasz's email program too...

Andre


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia mascot

body:
On 21 Feb 2003 at 4:29, Anthere wrote:

> ants would be perfect

Other people noticed that they are perfect too.
See http://ant.apache.org/
and their logo

Youandme


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia mascot

body:
> (The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com>):
> The [[slime mold]] is obviously the best choice.

...but it's really hard to turn into a recognizable logo.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Swedish umlaut å, ä, and ö.

body:
Im sorry, the letter ? is to common in our language that it makes sence to
replace it with code å, at least for new wikipedians, it has to be
autmatically done, like any modern HTML editor would do.

Othervise were back to making editing difficult, when it should be easy??

Since ? and ? which is present in the German langauges is working OK, while
? is the unique Swedish letter (not present in any other language?) I stille
belive there is something with the script, and how it translates letters and
code. Im pretty sure that somewehere in the code theres lines which makes ?
and ? working, while ? is lacking. Am I wrong?

- Dan

>Andre wrote:
> Possible solutions:
> * Notify those users for who this happens
> * Replace ? by å
>
> Andre Engels
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


body:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Dan Koehl wrote:

> Im sorry, the letter ? is to common in our language that it makes sence to
> replace it with code å, at least for new wikipedians, it has to be
> autmatically done, like any modern HTML editor would do.
>
> Othervise were back to making editing difficult, when it should be easy??
>
> Since ? and ? which is present in the German langauges is working OK, while
> ? is the unique Swedish letter (not present in any other language?) I stille
> belive there is something with the script, and how it translates letters and
> code. Im pretty sure that somewehere in the code theres lines which makes ?
> and ? working, while ? is lacking. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. The script is not doing anything, as I said before, it is
the browsers (and/or more specifically the editors on them) that are at fault.
As far as I understand it, these editors do not have ? in their character set,
while they do have ? and ?. Note that a similar thing happened in Tomasz
Wegrzanowski's email. And the email surely won't go through Wikipedia's PHP
script, will it?

Another way to see that it is not caused by the PHP script, is that it happens
for some people but not all - the PHP script just sees the text that is given
as input, so if it causes problems with some users, those users must be
inputting a different text.

Andre


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia mascot

references:
<8gGQvPACpVB@erik_moeller> <oprkxyg0smk4g8ki@news.gmane.org>
	<200302211557.KAA31951@TheWorld.com> <20030221074729.P8322@joey.bomis.com>
	<3E567FB2.8040802@epost.de>

body: The [[slime mold]] is obviously the best choice.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] MyPasswordIsXYXY

body:
Done.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Abbat [mailto:phma at webjockey.net]
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 3:46 PM
To: WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] MyPasswordIsXYXY

Someone uploaded something as this user. I tried the obvious password and it
didn't work (intending to change it to something random and promptly forget
it). Can someone with database access make sure that the account is unusable?

phma


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Swedish umlaut å, ä, and ö.

body:
Ok, well the problem is not that great, I have corrected two files in two
months, which is nothing. If theres nothing to do, its not the end of the
world.

Strange though, that the browser accept ? and ? but not ?.

I suppose its because a large number of european users are German, while
theres too less of the old Swedes, thats why ? was not implemented.

Nothing to do, and its not a big problem anyhow. Over and Out.- Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Engels" <engels at uni-koblenz.de>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Swedish umlaut ?, ?, and ?.

> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Dan Koehl wrote:
>
> > Im sorry, the letter ? is to common in our language that it makes sence
to
> > replace it with code å, at least for new wikipedians, it has to be
> > autmatically done, like any modern HTML editor would do.
> >
> > Othervise were back to making editing difficult, when it should be
easy??
> >
> > Since ? and ? which is present in the German langauges is working OK,
while
> > ? is the unique Swedish letter (not present in any other language?) I
stille
> > belive there is something with the script, and how it translates letters
and
> > code. Im pretty sure that somewehere in the code theres lines which
makes ?
> > and ? working, while ? is lacking. Am I wrong?
>
> Yes, you are wrong. The script is not doing anything, as I said before, it
is
> the browsers (and/or more specifically the editors on them) that are at
fault.
> As far as I understand it, these editors do not have ? in their character
set,
> while they do have ? and ?. Note that a similar thing happened in Tomasz
> Wegrzanowski's email. And the email surely won't go through Wikipedia's
PHP
> script, will it?
>
> Another way to see that it is not caused by the PHP script, is that it
happens
> for some people but not all - the PHP script just sees the text that is
given
> as input, so if it causes problems with some users, those users must be
> inputting a different text.
>
> Andre
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: s

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Mascot cartoonism

body:
Whatever is decided upon for a mascot... I can help out with the graphical
end of it... a favorite of mine being the platypus, www.hexley.com
although I nitpick hex for looking too much like a Donald Duck ripoff...
anyway, if anyone has any ideas, just let me know and Ill sketch them
up. -Stevertigo