from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Jim Laurino wrote:
> I started a log of my thinking and exploration related
> to this topic at wikipedia User:AJim/extensions.
>
> I looked at the v 1.18 tables.sql categorylinks table,
> and I think the cl_sortkey index is right on track
> to support the kind of functionality I was looking for.
>
> I am pretty new to this stuff. Will the changes that
> Brion just made appear on the test wiki soon?

Already there, I installed it a few minutes after checking it in.

By default, the sort key will be the name of the article. That is, in an
article "Linus Torvalds", a category link [[Category:Programmer]] will
confer the sort key "Linus_Torvalds", and when you look at the list of
programmers at Category:Programmer he'll appear under the L's.

If you override it, say [[Category:Programmer|Torvalds, Linus]], then
he'll be sorted in the T's, though he'll still be listed as "Linus
Torvalds".

(It's currently an ugly binary search and should get improved to
something that's at least case-insensitive and ideally
language-targetted. MySQL's limited language settings mean we'll have to
manage that ourselves, making binary sort keys from the text.)

Categories can be nested in a tree structure, though the display is
currently a bit awkward for that. There is not (yet) any specific
navigation support for being "in" a category, though perhaps that's
something that could get added somehow.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject: [Wikitech-l] Multilingual interface

body:
Nikola Smolenski wrote:
> About GlobalFunctions.php: strcasecmp is probably an error, and get_class
> accepts only one argument. It works this way for me (PHP 4.1.0).

No, strcasecmp is correct: get_class always returns a lowercase value,
so the comparison needs to be case insensitive. There is however a
misnested parenthesis.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikien-l

from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: RickK != RK (Was: [WikiEN-l] the wik user)

body:
> Are you sure you mean "RickK" & didn't mean "RK"? While I don't claim to
> agree with everything RickK has contributed, I believe he's far less
> controversial than RK.
>
> Geoff

I do know the difference.  Charles


from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Multilingual interface

body:
On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:48, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Nikola Smolenski wrote:
> > Yes. One can use all languages in same encoding (all Latin-1, all
> > Latin-2, all UTF-8...) but can not mix encodings. It is trivial to
> > convert any language to UTF-8, except for the linktrail which is not used
> > anyway. Wikisource, Wikibooks and Wiktionary are in UTF-8 already, so I
> > don't think it will be a problem for them.
>
> All the remaining latin-1 language files will have to be upgraded to do
> that, or appropriate run-time upconversion added.

I don't think that runtime conversion is a good idea.

1) Create Language*Utf.php files which would be used aside current ones.
2) Write a small guide on how to convert existing language files to UTF-8.

> > I don't think that language-specific sorting will be a
> > problem when introduced; an user will simply see text sorted in his
> > language.
>
> The sorting will have to be hard-coded into the index fields in the
> tables, so it must be uniform for all saved data. Everything displayed
> will use the same uniform sorting method, as it's impractical to add
> dozens of sort indexes for every conceivable language to a table with
> hundreds of thousands of pages.

Oh, if there will be indexes, then yes, it probably could not be done. As
other things, it will have to fall back to English/default language.

> > But good luck to one who is going to implement it in UTF-8 for all
> > languages! As for Chinese and Japanese, you were referring to
> > stripForSearch? I don't think that it is a problem, Chinese and Japanese
> > users will be able to search properly, other users will not, but they are
> > not now anyway.
>
> Yes, that's one of the problem functions. It's about saving the index
> data consistently, and reading it back properly. The data must always be
> stored and interpreted in a consistent way.

I thought only when searching, but now I see that it is used when generating
data. Fallback to English for now, though perhaps later something could be
done.

I have got the CVS and made the first set of changes. They are unnoticeable if
the feature is not enabled and don't do anything even if it is, so they could
be safely introduced to the source. I will probably be able to submit rest of
the changes soon.

About GlobalFunctions.php: strcasecmp is probably an error, and get_class
accepts only one argument. It works this way for me (PHP 4.1.0).

Do you think that documentation for this is needed (if yes, can I use parts of
your e-mails to write it)?

Index: LocalSettings.sample
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/LocalSettings.sample,v
retrieving revision 1.34
diff -u -3 -p -r1.34 LocalSettings.sample
--- LocalSettings.sample        8 May 2004 02:15:49 -0000       1.34
+++ LocalSettings.sample        16 May 2004 06:25:42 -0000
@@ -141,6 +141,8 @@ $wgLocalInterwiki   = $wgSitename;

 ## If you want a non-English wiki, add a line like this
 # $wgLanguageCode = "de";
+## If you want your wiki to have several languages, add their codes into an
array like this
+# $wgLanguageArray = array("en","de","sr");

 ## Character encoding: normally auto-selected by the language.
 ## English, German, Danish, Dutch, French, Spanish, and Swedish
Index: includes/DefaultSettings.php
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/DefaultSettings.php,v
retrieving revision 1.109
diff -u -3 -p -r1.109 DefaultSettings.php
--- includes/DefaultSettings.php        15 May 2004 10:36:58 -0000      1.109
+++ includes/DefaultSettings.php        16 May 2004 06:25:45 -0000
@@ -94,6 +94,7 @@ $wgLinkCacheMemcached = false; # Not ful
 #
 $wgLanguageCode     = "en";
 $wgLanguageFile     = false; # Filename of a language file generated by
dumpMessages.php
+$wgLanguageArray    = false; # Monolingual by default
 $wgInterwikiMagic      = true; # Treat language links as magic connectors,
not inline links
 $wgInputEncoding       = "ISO-8859-1";
 $wgOutputEncoding      = "ISO-8859-1";
Index: includes/GlobalFunctions.php
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/GlobalFunctions.php,v
retrieving revision 1.85
diff -u -3 -p -r1.85 GlobalFunctions.php
--- includes/GlobalFunctions.php        15 May 2004 14:03:00 -0000      1.85
+++ includes/GlobalFunctions.php        16 May 2004 06:25:48 -0000
@@ -40,8 +40,8 @@ if( !function_exists('is_a') ) {
        # Exists in PHP 4.2.0+
        function is_a( $object, $class_name ) {
                return
-                       (strcasecmp( get_class( $object, $class_name ) == 0)
||
-                        is_subclass_of( $object, $class_name ) );
+                       ( get_class( $object ) == 0) ||
+                        is_subclass_of( $object, $class_name ) ;
        }
 }

@@ -261,7 +261,7 @@ function wfReadOnly()
        global $wgReadOnlyFile;

        if ( "" == $wgReadOnlyFile ) { return false; }
-       return is_file( $wgReadOnlyFile );
+       return @is_file( $wgReadOnlyFile );
 }

 $wgReplacementKeys = array( "$1", "$2", "$3", "$4", "$5", "$6", "$7", "$8",
"$9" );
Index: includes/SpecialPreferences.php
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/SpecialPreferences.php,v
retrieving revision 1.42
diff -u -3 -p -r1.42 SpecialPreferences.php
--- includes/SpecialPreferences.php     13 May 2004 14:17:44 -0000      1.42
+++ includes/SpecialPreferences.php     16 May 2004 06:25:50 -0000
@@ -12,7 +12,7 @@ class PreferencesForm {
        var $mQuickbar, $mOldpass, $mNewpass, $mRetypePass, $mStubs;
        var $mRows, $mCols, $mSkin, $mMath, $mDate, $mUserEmail, $mEmailFlag,
$mNick;
        var $mSearch, $mRecent, $mHourDiff, $mSearchLines, $mSearchChars,
$mAction;
-       var $mReset, $mPosted, $mToggles, $mSearchNs, $mRealName;
+       var $mReset, $mPosted, $mToggles, $mSearchNs, $mRealName, $mLanguage;

        function PreferencesForm( &$request ) {
                global $wgLang;
@@ -40,6 +40,7 @@ class PreferencesForm {
                $this->mReset = $request->getCheck( 'wpReset' );
                $this->mPosted = $request->wasPosted();
                $this->mSaveprefs = $request->getCheck( 'wpSaveprefs' ) &&
$this->mPosted;
+               $this->mLanguage = $request->getVal( 'wpLanguage' );

                # User toggles  (the big ugly unsorted list of checkboxes)
                $this->mToggles = array();
@@ -159,6 +160,7 @@ class PreferencesForm {
                $wgUser->setOption( "cols", $this->validateInt( $this->mCols,
4, 1000 ) );
                $wgUser->setOption( "stubthreshold", $this->validateIntOrNull(
$this->mStubs ) );
                $wgUser->setOption( "timecorrection", $this->validateTimeZone(
$this->mHourDiff, -12, 14 ) );
+               $wgUser->setOption( "language", $this->mLanguage );

                # Set search namespace options
                foreach( $this->mSearchNs as $i => $value ) {
@@ -202,6 +204,7 @@ class PreferencesForm {
                $this->mSearchLines = $wgUser->getOption( "contextlines" );
                $this->mSearchChars = $wgUser->getOption( "contextchars" );
                $this->mRecent = $wgUser->getOption( "rclimit" );
+               $this->mLanguage = $wgUser->getOption( "language" );

                $togs = $wgLang->getUserToggles();
                foreach ( $togs as $tname => $ttext ) {
@@ -265,7 +268,7 @@ class PreferencesForm {

        /* private */ function mainPrefsForm( $err )
        {
-               global $wgUser, $wgOut, $wgLang, $wgUseDynamicDates,
$wgValidSkinNames;
+               global $wgUser, $wgOut, $wgLang, $wgUseDynamicDates,
$wgValidSkinNames,$wgLanguageArray;

                $wgOut->setPageTitle( wfMsg( "preferences" ) );
                $wgOut->setArticleRelated( false );
@@ -321,6 +324,20 @@ class PreferencesForm {
                $wgOut->addHTML( "<form id=\"preferences\"
name=\"preferences\" action=\"$action\"
        method=\"post\">" );

+               # Zeroth section: language
+               #
+               if($wgLanguageArray) {
+                       $wgOut->addHTML( "<fieldset>
+                       <legend>Language</legend>
+
<select name=\"wpLanguage\">" );
+                       foreach( $wgLanguageArray as $v)
+                               $wgOut->addHTML( "<option value=\"$v\" ".
+                               (($v==$this->mLanguage)?"selected":"").
+                               ">".$wgLang->getLanguageName( $v ).
+                               "</option>" );
+                       $wgOut->addHTML( "</select>
</fieldset>" );
+               }
+
                # First section: identity
                # Email, etc.
                #


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] election ballot

body:
Feedback from a french contributor, named coeur (c?ur)

* he mentions the fact a user could be registered
under different name on 30 wikipedias, hence vote 30
times

-> my answer. This could happen. Some people do have
different names, and a tiny few could do it on purpose
and could cheat. However, the risk is limited, we
trust people per default not to abuse the system, and
likely it would be an artifact.
We could limit the risk by setting a minimum of
contribution, perhaps ?

* he mentions the fact different users could have same
name under different wikipedias, hence good votes
would be discarded

-> my answer. This will happen, we already know
several cases. Checking and discarding will not be
automatic but be human powered with control.
I suppose I am correct :-)

* he mentions he is *bound* to have different names on
en and fr, as his name need utf8 encoding.

-> my answer. I said we trusted him to be honest here.
And he should have stick to a good old name with no
weird caracters ;-)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] election ballot


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

subject: [Foundation-l] Cafepress alternatives?

body:
On Sat, May 15, 2004 at 09:17:38AM -0700, Anthere wrote:

> I am not sure I understood everything yet; but to who
> are these wikireaders gonna be distributed ? Or,
> through which means ? Several means ? Only through
> internet ? In schools ? Meetings ? What are you
> planning ?

The plan is to install a shop and sell them via this shop.
de:Benutzer:Harko has found a Berlin printer who does 1500
copies of WikiReader Schweden and he will sell them via
this shop too.
Depending on how fast they are sold we will also bring some
copies to the WOS3 in Berlin too and sell them there.

> Are they gonna be sold ? If they are, how much ? Why
> sold ?

I'm sure that they're gonna be sold, the PDF is quite popular
(1300 downloads in April and May) and it spread through a few
German blogs (I love them).
The WR Internet will be at 4,60 EURO without shipping, the
WR Schweden about the same price.
3,30 is production cost, 1,- for me and 7% VAT.
I didn't include anything for Wikimedia because I think
that most of the copies will go to our authors (btw, almost 600
registered wrote at the 126 articles) and they already donated
their time. But I add a <h2>note that the customers shall donate
and suggest one Euro, we'll see wether this is successful or not.

The have to be sold to make sure that we can afford further
editions, simple as that.

> Do you consider they are only instrument of
> promotion, or knowledge distribution as well ?

Offline promotion is one intention, getting a step nearer
to the printed Wikipedia is another. But personally I don't
believe that we will ever get a complete printed Wikipedia.

> Were the 3000 dollars  definitly given to support
> WikiReaders, or are they a help to be reinbursed while
> the WikiReaders are sold ?

The money will be reimbursed, Jimbo wrote that he meant
it as support for starting the German Verein, but that
yet doesn't exists.

ciao, tom
--
== Weblinks ==
* http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32 - Free Knowledge
* http://tinyurl.com/27c88 - WikiReader Internet: bald im Druck
* http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com - Free Books


subject: [Foundation-l] Cafepress alternatives?


from_name: Fantasy

subject: [Foundation-l] Board of Trustees/To do List

body:
Hi,

I was looking on meta for a list of Problems the Fondation or Board of
Trustees should solve. As I found no List, I just added this page:

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Trustees/To_do_List

If this is not the right page, please let me know where to put this open
Problems.

Thanks for help, Fantasy :-)

Current open issues: Trademark-Problems
* wikipedia.it is taken by Giacomo De Feo ROMA IT see whois.nic.it
* wikimedia.com is taken by Paracelsuspraxis Daniela Rohrer CH see
whois.org


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Wiktionary, general thoughts

body:
--- Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> ...
> We would thus have hundreds of entries for, say, "five" in hundreds of
> languages, all of which say nothing else than "this means five" and the
> same list of translations into all other languages. Isn't this an
> incredible nightmare to keep in sync?

And every language Wikipedia should have an article about Europe too.

> Now we have Wiktionaries in loads of languages, and all the redundancy
> above is multiplied /again/ by the number of languages. We would be
> collecting the translations for the word "five" n? times, where n is the
> number of languages. I don't know how many languages there are on this
> planet, but even if it was only 1000 languages, this means 1000000 (one
> million!) times the same list of words.

Yes - there would be a great deal of redundancy for the translation lists.
Interwiki MediaWiki/Template pages would solve that. We have the same problem
with interwiki links too - the same list minus one change has to be every
language version of an article.

> Am I the only one who thinks this is unbelievably redundant?

Only for the lists, not for the whole entries. I like the fact that Wiktionary
is also a translating dictionary - it makes it much more useful.

--mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/


from_name: Seth Ilys

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bot approval.

body:
I've placed a request for approval of a the bot us-states.py, written for me by Andre Engels, on [[Wikipedia_talk:Bots]]. As the procedure for approval of bots is sufficiently vague, I thought I'd also ask here. The bot will run on the account [[User:Sethbot]], and is designed to create redirects with US state abbrevations (so that CityName, SN redirects to CityName, StateName) in order to facilitate work on the Rambot articles on the English wikipedia. I've run the bot for just a few minutes already just to confirm that it works correctly. I'd appreciate comment on the appropriate Wikipedia page. Thanks.

-- Seth Ilys
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from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject:
[Wikitech-l] categories: separate category link table? (wican:
	addressed to exclusive sender for this address)

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> If you override it, say [[Category:Programmer|Torvalds, Linus]], then
> he'll be sorted in the T's, though he'll still be listed as "Linus
> Torvalds".

Is this where you think, maybe we really should have less free-form,
more predefined fields for some categories, especially persons, e.g.

[[person:
  surname = Torvalds
  givenname = Linus
  sex = male
  birthyear = 1969
  nationality = Finland, United States
  occupation = programmer]]

or (to make it an IMDb clone) films:

[[movie:
  title = Kill Bill II
  director = Quentin Tarantino
  year = 2004]]

I'm just thinking out loud here.

This would not replace the free text, but fill the same role as the
fact box for countries, where their population, area, etc. are listed.

The data input in this way could be rendered as a table or as plain
text, and it could additionally be stored in a SQL table where smart
searches can be made on people born in the same year, etc.  An example
of such a search tool is http://runeberg.org/search.pl where you can
search 27,000 Scandinavian writers and artists.  (Torvalds is in
there.)

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


from_name: Timwi

body:
Hi.

I meant to post this here a long time ago, but I didn't get around to it.

It is my understanding that the aim of the English Wiktionary has always
been and still is to define all words of all languages, as well as
provide translations of all words into all other languages. Is that right?

We would thus have hundreds of entries for, say, "five" in hundreds of
languages, all of which say nothing else than "this means five" and the
same list of translations into all other languages. Isn't this an
incredible nightmare to keep in sync?

Now we have Wiktionaries in loads of languages, and all the redundancy
above is multiplied /again/ by the number of languages. We would be
collecting the translations for the word "five" n? times, where n is the
number of languages. I don't know how many languages there are on this
planet, but even if it was only 1000 languages, this means 1000000 (one
million!) times the same list of words.

Am I the only one who thinks this is unbelievably redundant?

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] logos (Nohat)

body:
Is it possible to have a couple of wikipedia logos (several language) in
high resolution, for display at a larger size that the current one on
Wikipedia ?

Are they directly available somewhere, or could Nohat tell me how I
could have these ?

thanks

Ant


from_name: Imran Ghory

body:
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Timwi wrote:
> Am I the only one who thinks this is unbelievably redundant?

I agree totally (but then again I thought that (the english) wiktionary
should only define english words in English), but there's not much that
can be done about it, becuase words in differnet langauges aren't
reflective. That is just because A in language 1 means B in language 2, it
doesn't mean B in language 2 means A in language 1. So it's not possible
to have a single list that's shared by many languages.

Imran
--
http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran


body:
Imran Ghory wrote:

> On Sun, 16 May 2004, Timwi wrote:
>
>>Am I the only one who thinks this is unbelievably redundant?
>
> I agree totally (but then again I thought that (the english) wiktionary
> should only define english words in English), but there's not much that
> can be done about it, becuase words in differnet langauges aren't
> reflective. That is just because A in language 1 means B in language 2, it
> doesn't mean B in language 2 means A in language 1. So it's not possible
> to have a single list that's shared by many languages.

Firstly, I think you're thinking on the wrong lines. If A is a possible
translation for B, then B is always also a possible translation for A.
(Two words are possible translations of each other if their meanings
have a non-zero intersection; this property *is* reflexive.) Of course
that doesn't mean that B is *always* translated as A, but at least it
means that the graph represented by words and their translations is
undirected.

Secondly, that's only one part of the redundancy. Even if the graph were
directed, it would still mean that every Wiktionary would build that
same graph, when building it once would really be sufficient.

Timwi


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

body:
The articles which you insisnt on re-creating have gone through the Votes for Deletion process and have, by consensus, reasoned not to be worthwhile additions to the Wikipedia.  Yet you insist on re-adding them.  I keep re-deleting them, you keep re-adding them, I kept warning you to stop, but you persisted, then started adding commentary in the article itself as to why it shouldn't be deleted.  What else are we supposed to do with you?

RickK

Paul Annear <xxos at xxos.net> wrote:

   I have found the following reference relating to the deletion of my contribution 'XXOS Group':

   00:09, 16 May 2004 RickK deleted "XXOS Group" (once again deleting re-created nonsense)
Is his lack of understanding of an article, admittedly a stub at the time it was deleted, a good reason to delete it and to block any further contribution from me?

It is also not clear to me how to effectibely pursue this matter.

Paul Annear

www.xxos.net
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
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body:
Tomasz Sienicki wrote:

>  No; for example in the Polish Wiktionary we have the following rule:
>
>  a Polish word -> translation into all languages
>  a non-Polish word -> translation into Polish only

Ah, I see. Yes, that makes better sense. There's still some redundancy
in it because the translations from a Polish word into all languages
would include a translation into English which would also have to be
added on the page about the Polish word in the English Wiktionary, but
I'm happier with that.

I hope that convoluted sentence made sense.

>>Am I the only one who thinks this is unbelievably redundant?
>
>  You're not.

Oh, good :)

So, uhm ... I suppose people should really get together and agree that
this policy should also be pursued on the English Wiktionary (and
possibly all others too). Otherwise the incredible redundancy will even
be complemented with outrageous inconsistency. :/

Greetings,
Timwi


subject: [Foundation-l] election ballot

body:
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Anthere wrote:

> Feedback from a french contributor, named coeur (c?ur)
>
> * he mentions the fact a user could be registered
> under different name on 30 wikipedias, hence vote 30
> times

Yes, in theory he could. But the list of voters will be made public and
checked by Danny and me, especally if the result is close. If someone is
found to have cheated they could have all of their votes removed, and
potentially be debarred from future votes.

Imran
--
http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran


subject: [Foundation-l] election ballot


from_name: Tomasz Sienicki

body:
 Timwi wrote:

> We would thus have hundreds of entries for, say, "five" in hundreds of
> languages, all of which say nothing else than "this means five" and the
> same list of translations into all other languages. Isn't this an
> incredible nightmare to keep in sync?

> Now we have Wiktionaries in loads of languages, and all the redundancy
> above is multiplied /again/ by the number of languages.

 No; for example in the Polish Wiktionary we have the following rule:

 a Polish word -> translation into all languages
 a non-Polish word -> translation into Polish only

 That's the only logical way of doing that.

> Am I the only one who thinks this is unbelievably redundant?

 You're not.

 I understand that initially it wasn't clear whether Wiktionaries in other
 (than En) languages would be established at all. However, they are there now,
 so the redundant lists of translations should be moved from EN to the respective
 lng wiktionaries.

--
 tsca * Tomasz Sienicki


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

body:
RickK was correct to delete the article about your web activities. For
other's reference here is what was deleted:

XXOS Group [1] is the umbrella organisation that ties the various activities
of 'the Paul Annears' [2] together. Online activities include the virtual
gallery that goes by the name of X [3]. 'Art For Squares' [4] caters for a
niche market: art collectors with serious money and a sense of humour. These
enterprises are part of The Concise Model of the Universe which amongst
other activities supports the non-profit Flat Universe Society [5] and
promotes the sentience awareness initiatives Zebra Reality and Al Qaka: the
Voice of the Desert Penquin [6].

Your website is excellent and that article and a link to the website would
be welcome on

http://www.wikinfo.org (a Wiki with different policies which I initiated)
but Wikipedia policy frowns on self-promotion of this sort. If some
independent party had created the article, the situation would be different,
if there was some general recognition, for example, shown by newspaper
articles, or Google hits, of the significance of the subject matter of the
article.

It is possible RickK should have listed this article on [[Wikipedia:Votes
for deletion]] but this matter seems pretty clear cut.

As far as pursuing the matter, doing so is likely to only result in needless
embarrassment. What you have done is excellent and eventually will receive
the  recognition it is due.

Fred

From: Paul Annear <xxos at xxos.net>
Reply-To: xxos at xxos.net, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:32:16 +1200
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

I have found the following reference relating to the deletion of my
contribution 'XXOS Group':

00:09, 16 May 2004 RickK <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RickK>  deleted
"XXOS Group" (once again deleting re-created nonsense)
Is his lack of understanding of an article, admittedly a stub at the time it
was deleted, a good reason to delete it and to block any further
contribution from me?

It is also not clear to me how to effectibely pursue this matter.

Paul Annear

www.xxos.net <http://www.xxos.net>

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...Blocked?

body:
Are you blocked too?

Fred

From: Paul Annear <xxos at xxos.net>
Reply-To: xxos at xxos.net, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:32:16 +1200
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

to block any further contribution from me

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from_name: Fennec Foxen

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Historian: origin of apparent "policy" re
	recipes and how-tos?

body:
On Fri, 14 May 2004 02:29:44 -0700, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> I see this as more a place for a Wikibook recipes book.  An article that
> consists of 15 pages listing all the variations on chocolate cake is
> ridiculous for an encyclopedia.

Indeed. We *have* a Wikibook for recipes, last I checked, and it's
supposedly where all those "transwiki to recipes and delete" stuff
goes. Of course, Wikibooks isn't quite Wikipedia.

[[WP:NOT|Wikipedia articles are not]] recipes. They might conceivably
contain recipes, or they might be about recipes (random thought- we
have an article anywhere about that Neiman-Marcus or however you spell
it cookie recipe story that you hear all over? :). However, I would
think that a brief description of the content of a dish would usually
be more encyclopedic-feeling than a recipe. And yes, the mood is one
of the issues.


from_name: Angela

body:
Foundation-l is for cross-project issues. Is there any
reason this thread couldn't be on wiktionary-l? I
expect it would be more likely to gain the attention
of Wiktionarians there than it would here.

Please see
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
for details.

Angela.

____________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

body:
The article had already gone through the VfD process and had been deemed deleteable.

RickK

Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
It is possible RickK should have listed this article on [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion]] but this matter seems pretty clear cut.

---------------------------------
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from_name: Jan-Åke Larsson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Proposal for TeX math rendering.

references:
<x5oeosvzr7.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<20040513213859.GD4388@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>
	<40A3ED2E.6090501@pobox.com> <x565azx6dc.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<40A42A95.70409@pobox.com> <x5n04btnes.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<c82vat$soj$1@sea.gmane.org> <x5wu3ezrck.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<1084567271.1016.17.camel@venus> <x57jvezkqp.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>

body:
David Kastrup wrote:
> Gabriel Wicke <lists at wikidev.net> writes:
> > Hm, th easiest way to scale images relative to the font size should be
> > to use em's for height & width (and possible offsets via
> > position:relative), but usually browsers don't do a very good job at
> > scaling images- so i'm not sure if this is desirable at all.
>
> We are running in circles here.  Jan-?ke already gave the link
> <URL:http://www.mai.liu.se/~jalar/dvipng/test.html> where this and
> other ways of generating the display are not only discussed, but also
> demonstrated, and he offered the code generating the images if anybody
> was interested.

The images there (the good-looking ones) are not scaled by the
browser. The image is rendered at the proper resolution on the server
side, and displayed in the browser window.

When/if you want to look at this closer, let me know.
/J?

--
Cats humour us because they know that their ancestors ate ours


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Boston meeting?

body:
On 5/14/04 10:30 AM, "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:

> I will be attending a family reunion in New Hampshire July 24-July 31.
> That 2 1/2 months from now, so I am thinking that we have time to
> organize a Wikipedia meeting there, fashioned after the meetings we
> will be having in Europe this summer, i.e. informal gatherings
> spontaneously organized.
>
> I think that for most people the weekends are best, and so I
> tentatively nominate July 25th, Sunday, as the best time for a
> meeting.  I think that the best location would be Boston, since that's
> closer to New York than New Hampshire is, and a big enough city on
> it's own of course.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales/Boston
>
You do realize that's the week of the Democratic National Convention, I
hope.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wiktionary, general thoughts

body:
Angela wrote:

> Foundation-l is for cross-project issues. Is there any
> reason this thread couldn't be on wiktionary-l?

Ah. Sorry, I didn't know such a mailing list existed already. I've
subscribed.

Thanks,
Timwi


from_name: David Kastrup

references:
<x5oeosvzr7.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<20040513213859.GD4388@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>
	<40A3ED2E.6090501@pobox.com> <x565azx6dc.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<40A42A95.70409@pobox.com> <x5n04btnes.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<c82vat$soj$1@sea.gmane.org> <x5wu3ezrck.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<1084567271.1016.17.camel@venus> <x57jvezkqp.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
	<20040516195329.GA10160@mai.liu.se>

body:
Jan-?ke Larsson <jalar at mai.liu.se> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
> >
> > We are running in circles here.  Jan-?ke already gave the link
> > <URL:http://www.mai.liu.se/~jalar/dvipng/test.html> where this and
> > other ways of generating the display are not only discussed, but also
> > demonstrated, and he offered the code generating the images if anybody
> > was interested.
>
> The images there (the good-looking ones) are not scaled by the
> browser. The image is rendered at the proper resolution on the server
> side, and displayed in the browser window.

Sure.  If one wanted the browser to render, one would have to convert
the dvi file to SVG.  I don't think that there is a usable SVG
backend for GhostScript available right now; that would have been a
good solution.

--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Jorge Gallardo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo updates

body:
Hello everybody:

In http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_logos
there are several logo updates request. Could someone
do the requested updates.

JorgeGG

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Informaci?n de Estados Unidos y Am?rica Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
Vis?tanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com


from_name: Alex Regh

subject: [Foundation-l] Cafepress alternatives?

body:
Hi!

On Sun, 16 May 2004 11:39:54 +0200, Thomas R. Koll wrote:

>The money will be reimbursed, Jimbo wrote that he meant
>it as support for starting the German Verein, but that
>yet doesn't exists.

Errr, yes, it does not yet exist, but as I understood the matter, the money
was also meant to help *founding* it. There are costs involved, especially if
we have to consult a lawer, and anyway, it definitely looks like it will be
founded about the 12th of June in Berlin.

Alex
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
        --- Jim Steinman ---

Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de


subject: [Foundation-l] Cafepress alternatives?


from_name: Carson, David

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

body:
Since you appear to be associated with the XXOS Group, you might want to
have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Autobiography

Glancing at the www.xxos.net page, I can't imagine that a encyclopedic
article could be written about it, but there may be something I'm
missing.

Cheers!
David...

 -----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Paul Annear
Sent: Monday, 17 May 2004 10:32
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

	*	I have found the following reference relating to the
deletion of my contribution 'XXOS Group':
	*

	*	00:09, 16 May 2004 RickK
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RickK>  deleted "XXOS Group" (once
again deleting re-created nonsense)

	Is his lack of understanding of an article, admittedly a stub at
the time it was deleted, a good reason to delete it and to block any
further contribution from me?

	It is also not clear to me how to effectibely pursue this
matter.

	Paul Annear

	www.xxos.net

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from_name: Thomas Ayers

subject: [WikiEN-l] HELP! I was unfairly blocked!

body:
I was unfairly blocked when the other user on my computer started
vandalizing wikipedia. Please un-block me! I share a Wi-Fi connection w/
him, so my IP was also blocked.

I am JediMaster16.

 <mailto:dslguy14 at bellsouth.net> dslguy14 at bellsouth.net

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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: I want to start a new language... with the
	code"eg" please.

body:
Prince of Egypt wrote:
> No, it's a new conlang (well not really a conlang) called the Modern
> Egyptian Language. Is there any other language that has the abbreviation
> of "EG"?

Sorry, but new personal conlangs are very unlikely to get established in
the main Wikipedia project at this time.

If there's interest, we may end up setting up a side project for conlang
encyclopedias...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> --- Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> > We would thus have hundreds of entries for, say, "five" in hundreds of
>
> And every language Wikipedia should have an article about Europe too.

My impression is that the English Wiktionary will contain the articles

 [[five]] - this means the number 5
 [[f?nf]] - this means five in German
 [[fem]]  - this means five in Swedish
 [[cinq]] - this means five in French

and the German Wiktionary will contain the articles

 [[f?nf]] - dies bedeutet Number 5
 [[five]] - dies bedeutet f?nf auf Englisch
 [[cinq]] - dies bedeutet f?nf auf Franz?sisch
 [[fem]]  - dies bedeutet f?nf auf Schwedisch

and the Swedish Wiktionary will contain the articles

 [[fem]]  - detta betyder siffran 5
 [[five]] - detta betyder fem p? engelska
 [[f?nf]] - detta betyder fem p? tyska
 [[cinq]] - detta betyder fem p? franska

etc. (none of these German or Swedish Wiktionary pages exist yet)

It gets even more complicated when words are ambiguous ("Sex" is both
an English word, and the Swedish word for "six") and deflected
(separate entries for go, went, gone).  "Go" is a verb with so many
meanings (go by bus, go for it, gone with the wind, ...) and should
they all be explained and translated again on the went and gone pages?
In "gone with the wind", gone means lost.  But can this meaning also
exist in another tense such as "went", "go" and "goes"?  I think I'll
go with the wind.

This Wiktionary concept spans a space so wide that filling it seems an
endless task.  I'm not yet convinced that it is meaningful even to
try, which is why I don't.  I might have misunderstood something, and
those who are convinced should of course go ahead (not with the wind,
though).  There could, however, be more people like me, who need more
information or motivation before they are convinced that this is how
they should spend their evenings in the coming year.

There are already 38649 articles in the English Wiktionary.  The
German Wiktionary contains 971 pages, but only 39 qualify as articles.
I don't know what is missing in the other 932 ones.  The Swedish
Wiktionary has similar proportions: only 117 articles out of 996
pages.

Already, the Swedish Wiktionary's entry on the German word
"W?rterbuch"  is rather impressive,
http://sv.wiktionary.org/wiki/W%F6rterbuch and there is an interwiki
link to the German Wiktionary.  But I guess it will be long before
more than a few languages will be linked to Swedish in this way.  It
seems far more likely that all languages will link to English.

There are some out-of-copyright Swedish dictionaries available at
http://runeberg.org/saol/8/ (for spelling, printed 1923, 378 pages)
and http://runeberg.org/svetym/ (for etymology, printed 1922, 1284
pages). They are scanned and OCRed, but still need some proofreading.
Perhaps someone can find that useful.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...Blocked?

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

> Are you blocked too?

# 00:35, May 17, 2004 Angela unblocked "Xxos" (This user was not even
warned on their talk page that they could be blocked)


body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:

> "Go" is a verb with so many
> meanings (go by bus, go for it, gone with the wind, ...) and should
> they all be explained and translated again on the went and gone pages?

Well, personally, I would like for "goes", "went" and "gone" to simply
redirect to "go"...

> The German Wiktionary contains 971 pages, but only 39 qualify as
> articles. I don't know what is missing in the other 932 ones.

I don't know that either, but I just went to have a look, and their Main
Page explicitly says "PLEASE DO NOT CREATE ARTICLES YET." Apparently
they want to think about the layout template and general organisation
first. Quite obviously they are even more paranoid about consistency
than I am, and I do acknowledge that consistency is an order of
magnitude harder to accomplish in something like Wiktionary (which is
mainly structured data) than in something like Wikipedia (which is
mainly just free-form text).

Timwi


from_name: N.T. Riche

subject: [WikiEN-l] This is plato speaking.

body:
THIS IS PLATO CALLING THIS PLATO CALLING.............Comrades I joined the mailing list........................

you could me comrade nick!

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: This is plato speaking

body:
Ok now that you know that i joined in case if you didn't know my name is Nick im from las vegas, i'm interested jimbo i want to do a wiki meet up with you, will you please consider?

---------------------------------
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from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Elections

body:
Thanks Imran and Tim

Additional comment by Villy

 Je ne parviens pas ? trouver sur Media la r?gle de
l'enregistrement depuis 3 mois au moins pour les
votants. A supposer qu'elle s'y trouve, c'est bien la
premi?re fois que je vois les conditions d'?lectorat
plus dure que les conditions d'?ligibilit? : un
candidat en effet annon?e sa pr?sence sur unprojet
Wiki depuis mars 2004 : cela fait donc deux mois et il
semble pouvoir ?tre candidat au board. Il faudrait
peut-?tre songer ? harmoniser les conditions de wiki
seniority. villy 16 mai 2004 ? 19:34 (CEST)

I can't find on Media, the registration rule requiring
at least 3 months  of presence for voters. If we
suppose its existence, it is the first time I ever see
voting conditions being more restrictive than
eligibility restrictions : one candidate claims to be
here since march 2004, which is only 2 months, and he
appears to be eligeable for the board. It would be
best to have both requirements in tone with each
other.

-----

I answered the 3 months seniority requirement for
voters was on the notice, but I prefer to forward you
the whole piece of comments, as it is not the first
time the issue is mentionned. Villy is a judge in
France.

ant

PS : Villy registered on the 16th of march, so by
current rules, he may not vote.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/


subject: [Foundation-l] Elections


subject: [Foundation-l] Elections

body:
--- Imran Ghory <imran at bits.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2004, Anthere wrote:
> > I answered the 3 months seniority requirement for
> > voters was on the notice, but I prefer to forward
> you
> > the whole piece of comments, as it is not the
> first
> > time the issue is mentionned. Villy is a judge in
> > France.
>
> Yes, I can't remember where we discussed this, but
> the basic reasons for
> requiring the three month rule for voters (stop
> sock-puppets, ensure
> familiarility with wikipedia principles/idea) don't
> apply to candidates
> hence the reason for no restriction.
>
> Imran

Might be the right moment for a hundred of sockpuppets
to candidate and spoil the fun....:-)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/


subject: [Foundation-l] Elections


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

body:
Yes, that is procedure. It is obvious that Xxos did not understand what the
problem was or he wouldn't have been on the mailing list begging for help.
He posted this at [[XXOS Group]]:

"NOTE: this page has been deleted a couple times and as the front page of
Wikipedia specifically states: 'We are building an open-content encyclopedia
in many languages...Learn how to edit pages, experiment in the sandbox, and
visit our Community Portal to find out how you can contribute to Wikipedia,'
I am very much interested to understand why this contribution is
unacceptable especially given that there was a message indicating that I
would be banned if I persisted. My contribution is 'serious' and raises a
number of pertinent philosophical issues"

I haven't found what was said on votes for deletion, but I can imagine, as
the article is obvious self-promotion and XXOS Group returns no Google hits.

This matter was complicated by his use of an anonymous ip (user Xxos existed
but had apparently been blocked for inexplicable reasons (He edited only
article X and put the above notice on XXOS Group).

What is lacking is a notice in the article XXOS Group that the article was
listed on VFD or any response to his inquiry as to what was wrong.

There is, of course, plenty wrong, as he was engaged in promoting his own
excellent but not generally recognized website, but he was never informed in
plain language about our policy.

That's my take anyway. RickK, I hope you don't mind my exploring this
matter.

Fred

From: Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

The article had already gone through the VfD process and had been deemed
deleteable.

RickK

Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
It is possible RickK should have listed this article on [[Wikipedia:Votes
for deletion]] but this matter seems pretty clear cut.

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo!
<http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=24311/*http://promo.yahoo.c
om/sbc/>  - Internet access at a great low price.
_______________________________________________
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WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

body:
The VfD notice was placed on the original version of the article and remained there for a week before the article was deleted.  If the originator was interested in participating in the VfD process, he could have gone from the link on the VfD header to the VfD page, but it's apparent that he didn't bother to review his article for the seven days that it was listed on VfD before it was deleted.  We can't go through the VfD process over and over again every time a disgruntled poster decides to re-create deleted articles.

RickK

Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
What is lacking is a notice in the article XXOS Group that the article was listed on VFD or any response to his inquiry as to what was wrong.

There is, of course, plenty wrong, as he was engaged in promoting his own excellent but not generally recognized website, but he was never informed in plain language about our policy.

That's my take anyway. RickK, I hope you don't mind my exploring this matter.

Fred

---------------------------------
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from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: This is plato speaking

body:
N.T. Riche wrote:
> Ok now that you know that i joined in case if you didn't know my
>name is Nick im from las vegas, i'm interested jimbo i want to do a
>wiki meet up with you, will you please consider?

I have no present plans to visit Las Vegas.

Whenever I visit anywhere, though, it is my intention to try to
arrange meetups.  I do visit Las Vegas from time to time, about once
every few years.  So, someday it is entirely possible.

--Jimbo


body:
Peter Gervai wrote:
> On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 11:14:58AM +0300, Prince of Egypt wrote:
> > No, it's a new conlang (well not really a conlang) called the Modern
> > Egyptian Language. Is there any other language that has the abbreviation of
> > "EG"?
>
> Which wikipedia article describes the language you would like to have? If
> there isn't any maybe there isn't much people interested in?

What is our policy on constructed languages?  I ask because I'm really not sure.

My general feeling is that unless there's some very good reason not to
have a particular language, we should have it.  Some good reasons that
I can think of: (1) the language is a joke or vanity project (2) the
language is just a slight change of dialect from some other language.

For example, it would be bad to have a Klingon Wikipedia, I think.  It
would be bad to have separate sites for British and American English.

And finally, I think that it's very very convenient for us to avoid
arguments about this by reference to ISO standards.  We could, in some
cases, make exceptions, but we should be cautious about doing so.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] 3 x 1u shipped

body:
UPS tracking number:
1Z9Y393Y0341413708

Scheduled delivery date May 21, 2004.

I may upgrade the shipping on the 2U, because we want to make sure it
is here and installed before I leave town.  If it is not, it can still
be installed, but Michael would have to do it, and he's not as
knowledgeable as I am about such things.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Boston meeting?

body:
No, I didn't know that.  I should study the dates carefully and make an
adjustment.  My wife thinks that Sunday is a bad day anyway, since that's
her father's birthday, which is the whole point of the trip.

Now I think that the following Saturday will be better, but let's check
the dates of the Democratic convention, because I'm sure the town will be
 a zoo at that time.

The Cunctator wrote:

> On 5/14/04 10:30 AM, "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
>
> > I will be attending a family reunion in New Hampshire July 24-July 31.
> > That 2 1/2 months from now, so I am thinking that we have time to
> > organize a Wikipedia meeting there, fashioned after the meetings we
> > will be having in Europe this summer, i.e. informal gatherings
> > spontaneously organized.
> >
> > I think that for most people the weekends are best, and so I
> > tentatively nominate July 25th, Sunday, as the best time for a
> > meeting.  I think that the best location would be Boston, since that's
> > closer to New York than New Hampshire is, and a big enough city on
> > it's own of course.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales/Boston
> >
> You do realize that's the week of the Democratic National Convention, I
> hope.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Prince of Egypt

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] I want to start a new language... with the code "eg"
	please.

body:
I would like to start a new langauge please. Can anyone help me with this?
the code i want is "eg". it doesnt exist now in the list of available
languages.

yours,
Mamduh Shawqi

>From: Jorge Gallardo <jorgegallardo_cl at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo updates
>Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:44:16 -0500 (CDT)
>
>Hello everybody:
>
>In http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_logos
>there are several logo updates request. Could someone
>do the requested updates.
>
>
>JorgeGG
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Informaci?n de Estados Unidos y Am?rica Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
>Vis?tanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.msn.de/antispam/prevention/junkmailfilter Schlu? mit Spam - MSN
hilft Ihnen hier weiter.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] the wik user

body:
If Wik is really making unprovoked abusive comments, perhaps we should
do a bit more to rein him in. We have been struggling to establish a
process for this.

I'm open to suggestions!

Ed Poor


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wik

body:
The arbitration committee is unable to deal adequately with Wik on this
matter, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Wik2#Persona
l_attacks

(As always such a long url may need to be pasted together).

BTW, the title, "The User Wik" is offensive and I have changed it.

Fred

> From: "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:04:37 -0400
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] the wik user
>
> If Wik is really making unprovoked abusive comments, perhaps we should
> do a bit more to rein him in. We have been struggling to establish a
> process for this.
>
> I'm open to suggestions!
>
> Ed Poor
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Foundation-l] election ballot

body:
Anthere wrote:

>Feedback from a french contributor, named coeur (c?ur)
>
>* he mentions the fact a user could be registered
>under different name on 30 wikipedias, hence vote 30
>times
>
>-> my answer. This could happen. Some people do have
>different names, and a tiny few could do it on purpose
>and could cheat. However, the risk is limited, we
>trust people per default not to abuse the system, and
>likely it would be an artifact.
>We could limit the risk by setting a minimum of
>contribution, perhaps ?
>
>
>* he mentions the fact different users could have same
>name under different wikipedias, hence good votes
>would be discarded
>
>-> my answer. This will happen, we already know
>several cases. Checking and discarding will not be
>automatic but be human powered with control.
>I suppose I am correct :-)
>
>* he mentions he is *bound* to have different names on
>en and fr, as his name need utf8 encoding.
>
>-> my answer. I said we trusted him to be honest here.
>And he should have stick to a good old name with no
>weird caracters ;-)
>
>
>
You can't determine identity automatically. Two people may have the same
name on different wikis. Two people may share the same IP address or
even the same computer. Our defences against dishonesty are as follows:

* All votes are logged publicly. The name, number of days since first
edit, and number of edits are displayed to all. Who the person voted for
is not displayed.
* Election administrators can also see the IP address and user agent of
each voter.
* Election administrators can strike out votes by clicking the "strike" link
* Other secret methods may be implemented in order to catch people out
who think they know our defences

However it would also be useful if anyone caught cheating in the
election could be banned from Wikimedia web sites for an extended
period. It should be clear that this is not a game.

A demonstration of the voting system is at
http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Boardvote . There are two open
accounts:

* Voter -- a user who has been around for 90 days
* Election administrator -- a user who may strike votes and view IP
addresses

Both have no password.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Foundation-l] election ballot


from_name: Peter Gervai

body:
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 11:14:58AM +0300, Prince of Egypt wrote:
> No, it's a new conlang (well not really a conlang) called the Modern
> Egyptian Language. Is there any other language that has the abbreviation of
> "EG"?

Which wikipedia article describes the language you would like to have? If
there isn't any maybe there isn't much people interested in?

grin


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Bot approval.

body:
Seth Ilys wrote:
> I've placed a request for approval of a the bot us-states.py, written
> for me by Andre Engels, on [[Wikipedia_talk:Bots]]. As the procedure for
> approval of bots is sufficiently vague, I thought I'd also ask here. The
> bot will run on the account [[User:Sethbot]], and is designed to create
> redirects with US state abbrevations (so that CityName, SN redirects to
> CityName, StateName) in order to facilitate work on the Rambot articles
> on the English wikipedia. I've run the bot for just a few minutes
> already just to confirm that it works correctly. I'd appreciate comment
> on the appropriate Wikipedia page. Thanks.
>
> -- Seth Ilys

I've said on that talk page, approving bots is not an operation which
requires technical knowledge or developer assistance.

-- Tim Starling


body:
No, it's a new conlang (well not really a conlang) called the Modern
Egyptian Language. Is there any other language that has the abbreviation of
"EG"?

- Mamduh Shawqi

>From: Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: I want to start a new language... with the
>code"eg" please.
>Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:54:17 +1000
>
>Prince of Egypt wrote:
>>I would like to start a new langauge please. Can anyone help me with this?
>>the code i want is "eg". it doesnt exist now in the list of available
>>languages.
>>
>>yours,
>>Mamduh Shawqi
>>
>
>Do you want Ancient Egyptian? That would be "egy", not "eg" according to
>ISO 639.
>
>-- Tim Starling
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
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einfach ausdrucken: http://www.msn.de/antispam/prevention/junkmailfilter
Schlu? mit Spam - MSN hilft Ihnen hier weiter.


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Jordi Reiss

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Requests

body:
Hi all wikipedians,

I have acknowledge the wike project some months ago and I'm impress for the
content and the extension it is acquiring.

I'm a Linguistics student and my main interest is the history of Romanic
languages (Spanish, Portuguese, French, etc.). Last year I try to find some
on-line etymological dictionaries for Spanish and I couldn?t find any.

That lead me to think about creating a wikictionary for etymological studies
of Romanic languages. The problem is that my technological knowledge is very
limited and I'm searching people to help me and to teach me how to achieve
it. I have good knowledge of sql and (x)html if this helps, but my
foundations on server and sites organizations is very limited.

Looking forward to hearing from you eagerly,

Jordi Reiss


from_name: Paul Annear

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pages deketed...

body:
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20040517/786000cc/attachment.htm


from_name: Imran Ghory

subject: [Foundation-l] Elections

body:
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Anthere wrote:
> I answered the 3 months seniority requirement for
> voters was on the notice, but I prefer to forward you
> the whole piece of comments, as it is not the first
> time the issue is mentionned. Villy is a judge in
> France.

Yes, I can't remember where we discussed this, but the basic reasons for
requiring the three month rule for voters (stop sock-puppets, ensure
familiarility with wikipedia principles/idea) don't apply to candidates
hence the reason for no restriction.

Imran
--
http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran


subject: [Foundation-l] Elections


from_name: Jim Laurino

subject:
[Wikitech-l] categories: separate category link table? (wican:
	(wican: addressed to exclusive sender for this address)
	addressed to exclusive sender for this address)

in_reply_to:
<40A6FE68.1030206@pobox.com> (from
	+wican+jimlaur+72e5af8b64.brion#pobox.com@spamgourmet.com on
	Sun, May 16, 2004 at 01:38:48 -0400)

body:
On 2004.05.16 01:38, Brion Vibber  - brion at pobox.com wrote:
> Jim Laurino wrote:
>> I am pretty new to this stuff. Will the changes that
>> Brion just made appear on the test wiki soon?
>
> Already there, I installed it a few minutes after
> checking it in.

Yes, faster than I imagined. Thanks.

I have tried it, although not the way I expected.
I think it will meet the need to put a series
of articles in an arbitrary, definite order.

Navigation, display, and related issues
remain, but the basics seem sound.
My impression is that great progress is also
being made in the ability of users to influence
these aspects of the wiki through customization.

>
> By default, the sort key will be the name of the article.
> That is, in an article "Linus Torvalds", a category link
> [[Category:Programmer]] will confer the sort key
> "Linus_Torvalds", and when you look at the list of
> programmers at Category:Programmer he'll appear under the
> L's.
>
> If you override it, say [[Category:Programmer|Torvalds,
> Linus]], then he'll be sorted in the T's, though he'll
> still be listed as "Linus Torvalds".
>
I could be wrong, but I do not think whitespace
at the begining of the sort key is trimmed now.
I wonder if it might be wise to trim it?
Personally, I find whitespace programming to be hard ;).

> Categories can be nested in a tree structure, though the
> display is currently a bit awkward for that. There is not
> (yet) any specific navigation support for being "in" a
> category, though perhaps that's something that could get
> added somehow.

I have yet to experiment with the nesting.
It does sound useful.

Thanks again,

Jim Laurino


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] press

body:
Anthere wrote:

>* http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Corps
>
>You have a camera, you like free pictures, you love
>sport and the super bowl is happening JUST in your
>city
>
>(replace SuperBowl by Cannes festival, Earth Summit,
>Volcano eruption, Jimbo visiting, or whatever)
>
>What about covering the event, and telling *all*
>wikipedians about your great pictures ?
>
>See the future... what about having a team, covering
>press events... picking up news ourselves instead of
>waiting for them to come back through regular media ?
>
>Can you picture a wikipedian "journalist", droping by
>at an Earth Summit, with a camera in one hand, and a
>bunch of WikiReaders about Global Warming in the other
>hand ?
>
>
This is an interesting prospect.  Still a journalist is a person who
reports on something without becoming a part of the story.  Our members
have some strong differing opinions on global warming.  If the
distribution of WikiReaders were to take place that activity itself
would need NPOV guidelines.

Still I like the idea of having press accreditations to various events.
:-)

Ec


from_name: Götz Hoffart

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wrong error message: no connect to database

body:
Hi,

I just started a search on de.wikipedia.org on "uucp" - as Wikipedia is
*very* slow at the moment the request had a timeout:

> Konnte keine Verbindung zur Datenbank auf $1 herstellen

("could'n connect to database on $1")

I think $1 should be expanded :)

Regards
G?tz


from_name: Toby Bartels

body:
[Replies should go to <wiktionary-l at wikimedia.org>.]

Timwi wrote in part:

>Imran Ghory wrote:

>>there's not much that can be done about it,
>>becuase words in differnet langauges aren't reflective.

>(Two words are possible translations of each other if their meanings
>have a non-zero intersection; this property *is* reflexive.)

As a mathematician, I suppose that I should jump in here and say
that the word that you want here is "symmetric", not "reflexive". ^_^

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] press

body:
Just a reminder :-)

The goings on meta try to keep you informed of what is
going on on the various, and especially what could
perhaps interest you as far as meta is concerned. The
goings on wait for your input as well :-)

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goings-on

Amond some of the topics active on meta these days

------

* http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_content

Brainstorming (but let's take our time to do it :-))
about what to do with potentially disturbing images

------

* http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translators

A work by Sj and Jmabel, to organise translations
around; Imagine.... next time we have a press release
to send together, we could fix the translations within
a few days in all languages...

------

* http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Corps

You have a camera, you like free pictures, you love
sport and the super bowl is happening JUST in your
city

(replace SuperBowl by Cannes festival, Earth Summit,
Volcano eruption, Jimbo visiting, or whatever)

What about covering the event, and telling *all*
wikipedians about your great pictures ?

See the future... what about having a team, covering
press events... picking up news ourselves instead of
waiting for them to come back through regular media ?

Can you picture a wikipedian "journalist", droping by
at an Earth Summit, with a camera in one hand, and a
bunch of WikiReaders about Global Warming in the other
hand ?

Hu, why not ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/


from_name: Catherine Munro

subject: [WikiEN-l] Atomz Search?

body:
I posted this today on the External Search Engines page
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_search_engines), thought
it might be worthwhile to cc it here:

Has anyone explored the Atomz Search application for use on
Wikipedia?  (see http://www.atomz.com/applications/search/ and also their
FAQ
<http://www.atomz.com/applications/search/faq.htm>http://www.atomz.com/applications/search/faq.<http://www.atomz.com/applications/search/faq.htm>htm
).

I use the free Express version for my personal site, and it works very
well, is extraordinarily customizable, easy to integrate into a site, and
you control ''when'' content is indexed.  I've seen it on many other pro
sites as well.

It's a pay service for sites with more than 500 pages (heh), and of course
there's no pricing on their website -- it's ye olde "contact our sales
staff" routine.  It may be too pricey for a site as large and
index-intensive as this one, but it should at least be worth exploring.....
especially since the search application in hosted on '''''their'''''
servers, not ours.  And who knows, they may be willing to negotiate a deal
with a site as prominent as ours is becoming.

Perhaps Jimbo or someone else with an idea of how much we would be willing
to spend to have a reliable internal search mechanism could contact them...?

CatherineMunro

+----------------------+
artslave at usa.net
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re-press

body:
>This is an interesting prospect.  Still a journalist
is >a person who reports on something without becoming
a >part of the story.  Our members have some strong
>differing opinions on global warming.  If the
>distribution of WikiReaders were to take place that
>activity itself would need NPOV guidelines.

>Still I like the idea of having press accreditations
to >various events.  :-)

>Ec

Just as the german WikiReader (I suppose), the idea
would be to distribute a collection of articles from
Wikipedia, allowing anyone to understand the topic.
This would turn around the Global Warming article, but
also include all those relevant to the topic

for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide (and other
GG gases)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPCC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Climate_Coalition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_protocol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_of_global_warming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropogenic_global_warming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_temperature_record
...many more

As examples

Naturally, all those will have to be NPOV.

And they will help any interested person to understand
best.

Once Ed agrees with others that these articles are
neutral ...:-)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/


body:
Timwi wrote:
> Jimmy Wales wrote:
> >> (1) the language is a joke or vanity project  [...]
>> For example, it would be bad to have a Klingon Wikipedia, I think.
>
> I totally don't get this. You call Klingon a "joke project" when it has
> a strong following, widespread enthusiasm, a complete grammar and
> vocabulary, etc., but then you allow something like Toki Pona, which is
> hardly even a language and arouses interest solely by being very much
> indistinguishable from a joke.
>
> I don't understand this.

I'm not sure what you think Jimmy had to do with that. I added Toki Pona
since it was asked for several times without objections that I noticed,
then afterwards several people objected strenuously on the mailing
lists. So, we've put off any further 'young conlang' additions to the
main Wikipedia project pending more conclusive resolution. (As a partial
measure, the Toki Pona wiki was moved from a faux language code
subdomain to a full name.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Thomas Ayers

subject: [WikiEN-l] HELP! I was unfairly blocked! IP included.

body:
I was unfairly blocked when the other user on my computer started
vandalizing wikipedia. Please un-block me! I share a Wi-Fi connection w/
him, so my IP was also blocked.

I am JediMaster16 or 68.209.104.192

 <mailto:dslguy14 at bellsouth.net> dslguy14 at bellsouth.net

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from_name: Troels Arvin

subject: [Wikitech-l] Status code for DB problem messages

body:
Hello,

When the wiki has problems talking to the database, it responds with a
message saying "Sorry! The wiki is experiencing some technical
difficulties, and cannot contact the database server.". That's fine.

However, it seems that the message is sent along with an HTTP status code
of 200 (OK). I suggest that such error messages be delivered with an HTTP
status code of 500 (internal server error). This will prevent un-cool
things such as search engines recording an error page.

If my suggestion is accepted, then the text of the error message should be
expanded a bit (possibly using a number of whitespaces), so that Internet
Explorer will not replace the error message with its own "user friendly"
messages (i.e. MSN commercials).

--
Greetings from Troels Arvin, Copenhagen, Denmark


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: I want to start a new language... with	the
	code"eg" please.

body:
Andre Engels wrote:

>"Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com> schrieb:
>
>
>>My general feeling is that unless there's some very good reason not to
>>have a particular language, we should have it.  Some good reasons that
>>I can think of: (1) the language is a joke or vanity project (2) the
>>language is just a slight change of dialect from some other language.
>>
>>For example, it would be bad to have a Klingon Wikipedia, I think.  It
>>would be bad to have separate sites for British and American English.
>>
>>And finally, I think that it's very very convenient for us to avoid
>>arguments about this by reference to ISO standards.  We could, in some
>>cases, make exceptions, but we should be cautious about doing so.
>>
>>
>I have before proposed to go with ISO 639-2. Main rule for ISO 639-2 is
>that there should be 50 different documents divided over at most 50
>places. I would not put it as a hard rule, but I'd say that for languages
>outside ISO 639-2, the onus is with the person wanting to add it to give
>reasons, while for languages within, the onus is with those who want to
>refrain from adding it.
>
>
The only problem with such a rule is that it's so sensible.  That makes
convincing people more difficult. :-)

I would even recognize SIL codes as a basis for accepting a language.
On the other hand there are some languages that are officially
recognized despite some very week credentials (eg. Bosnian or Moldovan)

http://www2.cmp.uea.ac.uk/~jrk/conlang.html shows how far things can
go.  If we really get bored we can always use machine translation into
the "language of electric mice" at http://pikachize.eye-of-newt.com/

Ec


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikitech-l] Debian on AMD64

body:
Hi,

FYI there is now a working Debian system available for AMD64.
Setup is still a bit non standard, but it is quite stable and complete
(> 88 % of Debian packages). For what Wikipedia would need for its servers,
MySQL, PHP4, Apache, Squid are available. It is a pure 64 bits environment.

http://alioth.debian.org/projects/debian-amd64/
and the doc
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/1314/21/debian-amd64-howto.html

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

body:
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 02:42:00AM +0200, Lars Aronsson wrote:
> Already, the Swedish Wiktionary's entry on the German word
> "W?rterbuch"  is rather impressive,
> http://sv.wiktionary.org/wiki/W%F6rterbuch and there is an interwiki
> link to the German Wiktionary.  But I guess it will be long before
> more than a few languages will be linked to Swedish in this way.  It
> seems far more likely that all languages will link to English.

That's the 2: and 6: namespace, I think that a fresh mediawiki (CVS) has about
750 articles.

ciao, tom
--
== Weblinks ==
* http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32 - Free Knowledge
* http://tinyurl.com/27c88 - WikiReader Internet: bald im Druck
* http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com - Free Books


from_name: Fennec Foxen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Atomz Search?

body:
But we like our own database servers and searches, don't we? And we
have a perfectly good search system in place (it's only turned off...
something related to b0rk3d hardware. =/) Why pay even more for
external searches when we can have our own?

----- Original Message -----
From: Catherine Munro <artslave at usa.net>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:19:55 -0700
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Atomz Search?
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org

I posted this today on the External Search Engines page
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_search_engines),
thought it might be worthwhile to cc it here:

Has anyone explored the Atomz Search application for use on
Wikipedia?  (see http://www.atomz.com/applications/search/ and also
their FAQ
http://www.atomz.com/applications/search/faq.htm
).

I use the free Express version for my personal site, and it works very
well, is extraordinarily customizable, easy to integrate into a site,
and you control ''when'' content is indexed.  I've seen it on many
other pro sites as well.

It's a pay service for sites with more than 500 pages (heh), and of
course there's no pricing on their website -- it's ye olde "contact
our sales staff" routine.  It may be too pricey for a site as large
and index-intensive as this one, but it should at least be worth
exploring..... especially since the search application in hosted on
'''''their''''' servers, not ours.  And who knows, they may be willing
to negotiate a deal with a site as prominent as ours is becoming.

Perhaps Jimbo or someone else with an idea of how much we would be
willing to spend to have a reliable internal search mechanism could
contact them...?

CatherineMunro

+----------------------+

artslave at usa.net


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Andre Engels wrote:
> I have before proposed to go with ISO 639-2. Main rule for ISO 639-2 is
> that there should be 50 different documents divided over at most 50
> places. I would not put it as a hard rule, but I'd say that for languages
> outside ISO 639-2, the onus is with the person wanting to add it to give
> reasons, while for languages within, the onus is with those who want to
> refrain from adding it.

Klingon is everybody's favorite example of "we shouldn't have this", but
it's got an ISO 639-2 code: tlh, officially added earlier this year.

http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/codechanges.html

Aside from the "it would be embarrassing" factor which seems to be the
main driver in anti-Klingon sentiment, the copyright status of
Klingon-language materials is somewhat unclear, as Paramount apparently
claims them as derivative works. (IANAL! Feist v. Rural may not apply as
creating a language is pretty clearly a creative work, and the
Lojban/Loglan case doesn't apply since that was over the trademark to
the name 'loglan' -- the lojban folks preemptively changed the entire
vocabulary to avoid potential copyright claims.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: I want to start a new language... with the code
	"eg" please.

body:
Prince of Egypt wrote:
> I would like to start a new langauge please. Can anyone help me with
> this? the code i want is "eg". it doesnt exist now in the list of
> available languages.
>
> yours,
> Mamduh Shawqi
>

Do you want Ancient Egyptian? That would be "egy", not "eg" according to
ISO 639.

-- Tim Starling


body:
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 08:32:45AM -0700, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> What is our policy on constructed languages?  I ask because I'm really not sure.
>
> My general feeling is that unless there's some very good reason not to
> have a particular language, we should have it.  Some good reasons that
> I can think of: (1) the language is a joke or vanity project (2) the
> language is just a slight change of dialect from some other language.

(3) we most likely will have the only encyclopedia in that language. Afaik
that's true for Esperanto.

--
== Weblinks ==
* http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32 - Free Knowledge
* http://tinyurl.com/27c88 - WikiReader Internet: bald im Druck
* http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com - Free Books


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
> From: "Martin Harper" <martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk>
> Reply-To: martin at myreddice.co.uk, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:48:47 +0100
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Wik - "unproked absuive comments"
>
> Ed Poor began:
>
>> If Wik is really making unprovoked abusive comments, ...
>
> Wik really isn't making unprovoked abusive comments. Wik *has* said some rude
> things on occasion.

False, he does make unprovoked abusive comments. He is also habitually rude.

>On a more systematic basis, his editing style has been
> characterised as being rude.
>
> Equally, people have said rude, even provocative, things about Wik, on
> occasion. For
> example, earlier on this list, Jacob Roberson described Wik as, in part, a
> "troll, vandal,
> edit warrior, and pov warrior...".
>

One does not need to say anything about Wik to become the object of his
abuse.

>> perhaps we should do a bit more to rein him in.
>
> Such as, say, discussing the issue with Wik, and thus persuading him to remove
> some
> comments from his user page that a variety of people felt were inappropriate.
> Oh wait,
> people did that. And it worked...
>

But he continues to abuse other users.

>> We have been struggling to establish a process for this.
>
> I thought we had one. According to [[wikipedia:no personal attacks]], "Many
> Wikipedians
> remove personal attacks on sight. In extreme cases, users have been banned for
> repeatedly engaging in personal attacks".

A policy that is not enforced is just words.
>
> Perhaps this policy should be changed, if you don't like its results?
>
> -Martin
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 08:32:45AM -0700, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Peter Gervai wrote:
> > On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 11:14:58AM +0300, Prince of Egypt wrote:
> > > No, it's a new conlang (well not really a conlang) called the Modern
> > > Egyptian Language. Is there any other language that has the abbreviation of
> > > "EG"?
> >
> > Which wikipedia article describes the language you would like to have? If
> > there isn't any maybe there isn't much people interested in?
>
> What is our policy on constructed languages?  I ask because I'm really not sure.

Ad-hoc. :)

> My general feeling is that unless there's some very good reason not to
> have a particular language, we should have it.  Some good reasons that
> I can think of: (1) the language is a joke or vanity project (2) the
> language is just a slight change of dialect from some other language.

My question was aimed exactly at point one: is that a joke or vanity
language? If a language does not have a Wikipedia page which at least
vaguely describes the language, should I consider it more than a joke,
or a one-man experiment? (It's the same as creating original but completely
useless and irrelevant articles in Wikipedia, which is - when I last checked
- advised against, frowned upon. We have a wikipedian who created a conlang,
would anyone agree to start a wikipedia for him?)

In this particular case it seems that this language doesn't even have an
article (not even a stub) on Wikipedia.

> For example, it would be bad to have a Klingon Wikipedia, I think.

Klingon probably have more detailed description and vocabulary than, say,
Toki Pona. (It is interesting for me to observe how these "extremely minority
language" wikipedias live their lives. Even Latin seems to be half-dead, I
have no illusions about other smaller ones.)

Not that I am for or against Klingonese (or, in fact, Modern Egyptian)
wikipedia. If it's small, it doesn't need much disk space, and if it's big,
then there's a reason for it to exist. Only problem is to have 197
wikipedias containing "huhuhu ahahhaa", "kilroy woz here" and "flip you all"
messages... anyone checked for orphaned languages lately?

> And finally, I think that it's very very convenient for us to avoid
> arguments about this by reference to ISO standards.  We could, in some
> cases, make exceptions, but we should be cautious about doing so.

Sounds logical to me, and tough luck for modern egyptian...

Peter


from_name: nfs_ nfs

subject: [Wikitech-l] Mirror Wikipedia

body:
Hi all,

We want to mirror Wikipedia in our new search engine. Is there any script
that already fetch data from wikipedia ?.

It will be great if there is something in JAVA.

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee?
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


from_name: N.T. Riche

subject: [WikiEN-l] the wik user

body:
I agree with you ed. wik needs a to take a break from wiki, my suggestion is warn him. If he continues to act foolish ban him.

"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
If Wik is really making unprovoked abusive comments, perhaps we should
do a bit more to rein him in. We have been struggling to establish a
process for this.

I'm open to suggestions!

Ed Poor
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Modern Egyptian

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> A quick google search seems to imply that "Modern Egyptian" is not
> exactly a conlang. Rather, it seems to be a transliteration of Coptic to
> the latin alphabet. This is all based on the only relevant google hit
> for "modern egyptian language", so "Prince of Egypt" should feel free to
> enlighten us if this is incorrect.

Coptic has a perfectly good ISO 639 language code, 'cop', and is in no
way at all "a new conlang".

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Prince of Egypt

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: I want to start a new language... with
	thecode"eg" please.

body:
I totally agree with you, Jimbo. Every language has qual right to be
considered one, especially on a multi-lingual, multi-racial community site
such as Wikipedia.

- Mamduh

>From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: I want to start a new language... with
>thecode"eg" please.
>Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 08:32:45 -0700
>
>Peter Gervai wrote:
> > On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 11:14:58AM +0300, Prince of Egypt wrote:
> > > No, it's a new conlang (well not really a conlang) called the Modern
> > > Egyptian Language. Is there any other language that has the
>abbreviation of
> > > "EG"?
> >
> > Which wikipedia article describes the language you would like to have?
>If
> > there isn't any maybe there isn't much people interested in?
>
>What is our policy on constructed languages?  I ask because I'm really not
>sure.
>
>My general feeling is that unless there's some very good reason not to
>have a particular language, we should have it.  Some good reasons that
>I can think of: (1) the language is a joke or vanity project (2) the
>language is just a slight change of dialect from some other language.
>
>For example, it would be bad to have a Klingon Wikipedia, I think.  It
>would be bad to have separate sites for British and American English.
>
>And finally, I think that it's very very convenient for us to avoid
>arguments about this by reference to ISO standards.  We could, in some
>cases, make exceptions, but we should be cautious about doing so.
>
>--Jimbo
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
MSN - More useful every day http://www.msn.de


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Wiktionary, general thoughts

body:
[Replies should go to <wiktionary-l at wikimedia.org>.]

Timwi wrote in part:

>Imran Ghory wrote:

>>there's not much that can be done about it,
>>becuase words in differnet langauges aren't reflective.

>(Two words are possible translations of each other if their meanings
>have a non-zero intersection; this property *is* reflexive.)

As a mathematician, I suppose that I should jump in here and say
that the word that you want here is "symmetric", not "reflexive". ^_^

-- Toby


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wik

body:
Fred Bauder a ?crit:
> The arbitration committee is unable to deal adequately with Wik on this
> matter, see:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Wik2#Persona
> l_attacks
>
> (As always such a long url may need to be pasted together).
>
> BTW, the title, "The User Wik" is offensive and I have changed it.
>
> Fred

Glad someone else also noticed...


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] history ui- no-js-required version

body:
I've integrated IMSoP's patch from the sf.net tracker that gets rid of
the need to have js enabled for selecting diffs from the page history.
Please test this at http://wikidev.net/Main_Page?action=history
(remember the usual refresh ceremony: shift-reload/ctrl-f5/cmd-r...).

Because the two radio button columns are a real form configuration the
browser remembers the selected buttons when going back from the diff
view to change the versions. Disadvantage is the need to press enter or
the button at the end of the form to get the diff.

Please comment, if the opinion is in favour i'll type commit tomorrow or
so.

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Logo updates

body:
Jorge Gallardo wrote:
> Hello everybody:
>
> In http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_logos
> there are several logo updates request. Could someone
> do the requested updates.

There are also some on
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_in_other_languages

We really should have one central place for these. :/

Timwi


body:
Prince of Egypt wrote:

> I would like to start a new langauge please. Can anyone help me with
> this? the code i want is "eg". it doesnt exist now in the list of
> available languages.

Mh. I would like the language code "tm". Can I have it?

Timwi


body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

> What is our policy on constructed languages?

You tell me ... from what I've heard it's pretty messed up :/

> (1) the language is a joke or vanity project  [...]
> For example, it would be bad to have a Klingon Wikipedia, I think.

I totally don't get this. You call Klingon a "joke project" when it has
a strong following, widespread enthusiasm, a complete grammar and
vocabulary, etc., but then you allow something like Toki Pona, which is
hardly even a language and arouses interest solely by being very much
indistinguishable from a joke.

I don't understand this.

Timwi


body:
Toby Bartels wrote:

> Timwi wrote in part:
>
>>(Two words are possible translations of each other if their meanings
>>have a non-zero intersection; this property *is* reflexive.)
>
> As a mathematician, I suppose that I should jump in here and say
> that the word that you want here is "symmetric", not "reflexive". ^_^

Yes, you're right. I always get them mixed up. Just today I did a past
exam question, and this time I got them right. Lucky me :))

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Configuration problem on tt

body:
Hi.

If I go to http://tt.wikipedia.org/, it redirects me to
http://tt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Then I get:

	Ba? s?xif?
	(Redirected from Main Page)

I probably should have been redirected to
http://tt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%9F_s%C3%A4xif%C3%A4 instead.

Configuration problem?

Timwi


from_name: Marcos Cramer

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from_name: Andre Engels

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: I want to start a new language... with
	the	code"eg" please.

body:
"Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com> schrieb:

> I'm not sure what you think Jimmy had to do with that. I added Toki Pona
> since it was asked for several times without objections that I noticed,
> then afterwards several people objected strenuously on the mailing
> lists. So, we've put off any further 'young conlang' additions to the
> main Wikipedia project pending more conclusive resolution. (As a partial
> measure, the Toki Pona wiki was moved from a faux language code
> subdomain to a full name.)

I see only one request for it (31 March), and in the only reaction to that
(1 April), I wrote: "for me personally it's getting to the level where I
doubt whether having it would be good at all."

Andre Engels


body:
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 22:14 +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Hi.
>
> If I go to http://tt.wikipedia.org/, it redirects me to
> http://tt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> Then I get:
>
> 	Ba? s?xif?
> 	(Redirected from Main Page)
>
> I probably should have been redirected to
> http://tt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%9F_s%C3%A4xif%C3%A4 instead.
>
> Configuration problem?

Adjusting [[MediaWiki:Mainpage]] should do the job.
--
Gabriel Wicke


body:
"Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com> schrieb:

> My general feeling is that unless there's some very good reason not to
> have a particular language, we should have it.  Some good reasons that
> I can think of: (1) the language is a joke or vanity project (2) the
> language is just a slight change of dialect from some other language.
>
> For example, it would be bad to have a Klingon Wikipedia, I think.  It
> would be bad to have separate sites for British and American English.
>
> And finally, I think that it's very very convenient for us to avoid
> arguments about this by reference to ISO standards.  We could, in some
> cases, make exceptions, but we should be cautious about doing so.

I have before proposed to go with ISO 639-2. Main rule for ISO 639-2 is
that there should be 50 different documents divided over at most 50
places. I would not put it as a hard rule, but I'd say that for languages
outside ISO 639-2, the onus is with the person wanting to add it to give
reasons, while for languages within, the onus is with those who want to
refrain from adding it.

Andre Engels


from_name: Martin Harper

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wik - "unproked absuive comments"

body:
Ed Poor began:

> If Wik is really making unprovoked abusive comments, ...

Wik really isn't making unprovoked abusive comments. Wik *has* said some rude
things on occasion. On a more systematic basis, his editing style has been
characterised as being rude.

Equally, people have said rude, even provocative, things about Wik, on occasion. For
example, earlier on this list, Jacob Roberson described Wik as, in part, a "troll, vandal,
edit warrior, and pov warrior...".

> perhaps we should do a bit more to rein him in.

Such as, say, discussing the issue with Wik, and thus persuading him to remove some
comments from his user page that a variety of people felt were inappropriate. Oh wait,
people did that. And it worked...

> We have been struggling to establish a process for this.

I thought we had one. According to [[wikipedia:no personal attacks]], "Many Wikipedians
remove personal attacks on sight. In extreme cases, users have been banned for
repeatedly engaging in personal attacks".

Perhaps this policy should be changed, if you don't like its results?

-Martin


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

body:
Kaixo!

On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 05:30:03PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:

> Klingon is everybody's favorite example of "we shouldn't have this", but
> it's got an ISO 639-2 code: tlh, officially added earlier this year.

Klingon does have quite a big amount of written stuff already.

However, wikipedia is an enciclopedia, so the question is not whether
the language can be written, but whether people would actually write
enough *encyclopedic content*.

A possibility would be to require showing some real activity, eg
requiring having some 200 or 400 articles before fully accepting a
conlang.

> Aside from the "it would be embarrassing" factor which seems to be the
> main driver in anti-Klingon sentiment, the copyright status of

I don't see anything "embarassing" with klingon; but the fact is people
that use klingon do it for fun, not to communicate knowledge, much less
to build a repository of human knowledge like an encyclopedia.

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
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from_name: Daniel Blanchard

subject: [WikiEN-l] I was banned, but I am innocent!

body:
I am Daniel Blanchard, and I was banned by User:172 because he thought
I was User:Cantus, who was already banned. I am not Cantus! Please help
me out!

Sincerely,
Daniel