from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Zach Alexander said:
> the solution would
> be  to **leave the choice of objectionable content in the hands of the
> end  user**. We create [[Special:Censorship]]. If a user blanks it,
> Wikipedia is uncensored. If a user puts the tags {{img.genitals}},
> {{img.femalebreasts}}, and {{paganism}} on it, he doesn't see genitals
> or Kate Winslet, or even see articles about pagans. If another user
> puts {{img.malechests}}, {{img.ankles}}, and {{christianity}}, she
> doesn't see pictures of those things or articles on Christianity.

This seems reasonable, though I'm not sure if it would be workable in
practice.  I still lean heavily towards the view that the reader know best
precisely which images he prefers, and if it matters to him he can choose
to download those images and precisely those images.
But I think the best and simplest server-side support for suppressing
downloads that we could give to users would be one that turned all inlines
into links.  The best browsers already provide a facility to do something
similar and I use it all the time on Internet Explorer and Firefox.  There
should also be an option on links (all links, not just the ones that are
suppressed inlines) that renders the image as part of the article.
Incidentally anyone with IE can try this out:

Go to Tools/Internet Options

Click the Advanced tab

Under Multimedia make the following changes:

Ensure that Show Image Download Placeholders is checked

Ensure that Show Pictures is unchecked

If you now click OK and reload the current page, any pictures will be
replaced by a placeholder.  To view any of these pictures in the page,
hover over the placeholder and select "Show Picture" in the right mouse
button menu.
It's that simple.  No server-side support is required.

One possible way of making server-side filtering scale is for motivated
editors to create their own ratings for images.
[[User:Example/Classification/NotSuitableForKids]] might contain a list of
links to images that, in the opinion of User:Example, are unsuitable for
kids.  Someone for whom this kind of thing matters can then pop this into
his Censorship file, with the result that he won't be able to download
anything that gets put into that article.  The system would be based on
trust.  People with religious objections and whatnot could club together
and maintain their censor lists without bothering anybody else.


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

body:
FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be
of interest:

---
How are my suggested edits researched?

Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School
are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in
research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for
possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta
community.

---

Interestingly, donors to the school include:
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation
Corbis Corporation
Microsoft Corporation

http://www.ischool.washington.edu/events/docs/newsletter-fall-04.pdf

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


references:
<d3n2i4$i4p$1@sea.gmane.org> <BE84874C.E3C8%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<2ed171fb05041420024e2114eb@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Neglected to provide URL for Encarta Feedback FAQ:

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/support/encartafeedback.aspx?page=faq

On 4/15/05, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be
> of interest:
>
> ---
> How are my suggested edits researched?
>
> Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School
> are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in
> research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for
> possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta
> community.
>
> ---
>
> Interestingly, donors to the school include:
> Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation
> Corbis Corporation
> Microsoft Corporation
>
> http://www.ischool.washington.edu/events/docs/newsletter-fall-04.pdf
>
> -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)
>


list: wikien-l

from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 03:20:40PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Chad Perrin said:
> >
> > It's pretty clear that Kevin's statement isn't factually supportable
> > with evidence at hand, but that doesn't change the fact that what could
> > easily be a mere bit of sloppy phrasing was instead treated by Tony as
> > a deliberate and specific accusatory attack.
>
>
> It's quite clear that the intent was to discredit those who disagreed with
> Kevin by questioning their motives and directly attacking their good
> faith.  It was a vile accusation, insupportable and unworthy of this list.

Considering that I basically disagree with him (it's not a
black-and-white disagreement, but at minimum I disagree with his
conclusions in this instance), I find it interesting that, despite this
comment by you, I did not feel that my motives and good faith intentions
had been attacked or discredited in any way.  As far as I can tell, he
didn't speculate about the motives of those who disagree with him: he
just speculated about the motives behind some (possibly inaccurately
perceived) class of postings to Wikipedia.  Not everyone who disagrees
with him has posted a photo to Wikipedia with a nipple in it, after all,
and not all posted photos with nipples need be examples of what he
characterized as a trend.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 12:41:28PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Chad Perrin said:
> > On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 11:50:01PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> >>
> >> We'd all lost the minute that unsupported statement was made by a
> >> person who apparently believed he could get away with it.
> >
> > Again:  Where's the assumption of good faith?
>
> Indeed. Unsupported accusations are prima facie evidence of bad faith.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but I've pointed out repeatedly that your
use of the term "accusation" to characterize Kevin's statements strikes
me as a likely example of an assumption of bad faith.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Suggestions for a work-safe encyclopedia

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>Stan Shebs said:
>
>>I think it would be really helpful to the goal of
>>encyclopedia creation if it were possible for, say, the USGS to
>>assign one of their technical writers to the task of improving WP's
>>info on mountain ranges, or seafloor vents, or volcano prediction, plus
>>adding pictures that are not currently available on the net.
>>That kind of win can't happen if we don't come up with some way
>>to better accommodate organizational policies on sexual harassment.
>>
>>
>
>So the situation is this.  You think that USGS would be willing to assign
>one of its technical writers to improve geometric data, but this chap is
>unlikely to want to use Wikipedia in its current state because he might be
>falsely accused, by person or persons unknown, of sexual harassment?
>Curiouser and curiouser!
>
Welcome to the 21st century. The US Geological Survey is
actually a pretty liberal crowd. I've been to their offices
in California, and they're the types who would be totally in
favor of large-scale contribution to WP; I don't think it's
all far-fetched to have some of their scientists and writers
contribute as part of their day jobs.

However, the USGS is also an agency of the US govt, which as
we know has all kinds of rules and policies that we and the
USGS people might find idiotic, but it's not something they
can do anything about. So prudent USGS managers will not ask
their minions to do anything for WP during work, because the
managers could potentially be held liable as well as the minions,
especially should the boobie pictures happen to pop up just as
the Congressional oversight committee happens to be walking
through. (Note that turning off images is counterproductive
if part of your work is to upload images.) We likely wouldn't
ever hear about such a decision, at most one might notice a
scarcity of experts participating in WP.

Ironically, organizations' rules forbidding images of
nudity were originally pushed by feminist and other groups
combating workplace sexism...

Stan


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Tom Cherry

subject: [Wikitech-l] Mediawiki and mysql 5

body:
Hello, new around here, so if I'm posting to the wrong place, sorry.

How hard do you think it would be to get mediawiki to work with mysql 5
on a BSD 5 system?  I tried to install it but did not get very far, any
help that can be provided would be great.  I don't know PHP (actually,
I have been looking for an excuse to learn), but I was able to track my
issue down to this block of code in the file :
/usr/local/www/data-dist/mediawiki/maintenance/convertLinks.inc

         print "here a\n";
         $res = wfQuery( "SELECT l_from FROM links LIMIT 1", DB_READ );
         if ( mysql_field_type( $res, 0 ) == "int" ) {
                 print "Schema already converted\n";
                 return;
         }
         print "here b\n";

the print here statements are mine.  The output is as follows.

# PHP 5.0.3: the MonoBook skin will be disabled due to an
incompatibility between the PHPTAL template library and PHP 5. The wiki
should function normally, but with the older look and feel.
# PHP server API is apache2handler; ok, using pretty URLs
(index.php/Page_Title)
# Have XML / Latin1-UTF-8 conversion support.
# PHP's memory_limit is 8M. If this is too low, installation may fail!
Attempting to raise limit to 20M... ok.
# Have zlib support; enabling output compression.
# Found ImageMagick: /usr/local/bin/convert; image thumbnailing will be
enabled if you enable uploads.
# Installation directory: /usr/local/www/data-dist/mediawiki
# Script URI path: /mediawiki
# Connected as root (automatic)
# Connected to database... 5.0.2-alpha; enabling MySQL 4 enhancements
# Database wikidb exists
# There are already MediaWiki tables in this database. Checking if
updates are needed...

...ipblocks is up to date.
...already have interwiki table
...indexes seem up to 20031107 standards
...have linkscc table.
...linkscc is up to date, or does not exist. Good.
...have hitcounter table.
Converting links table to ID-ID...
here a
Sorry! The wiki is experiencing some technical difficulties, and cannot
contact the database server.

Thanks in advance.

--
End of line


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 12:39:02PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Poor, Edmund W said:
> >> the semi-fig-leafed scene where
> > Jack draws his new girlfriend, are not central to the movie. Even
> > though they are real crowd-pleasers, the plot would not have suffered
> > by
> > editing the car scene so that the frantically-excited couple are merely
> > shown getting into the car and doing some intense necking (leave
> > something to the imagination). And the drawing scene would have worked
> > just as well with PG-type fig-leafing instead of the tantalization of
> > "Ohmygosh, is she really showing her wobbly bits?"
> >
>
>
> In my opinion, it would have severely dented the credibility of the
> director to have given in more than he did to the puritan sensibilities of
> the US domestic audience.  Further fig-leafing would have been as
> distracting to most audiences as those disturbingly flat-chested female
> centaurs in Fantasia.

You must be referring to Fantasia 2000.  I seem to recall big-breasted
harpies with glowing nipples in the original Fantasia.

That aside . . . I agree that overt and visually obvious "fig-leafing"
(is this a technical term?) can be more distracting and more
objectionable than plain nudity.  If (for plot-driven, thematic,
mood-enhancing, or purely aesthetic reasons) nudity is called for, it
should not be fig-leafed any more than strictly necessary to stave off
censorship and, to suit my preferences, not even that much.  I'm rather
opposed to the gratuitous in creations within artistic realms, and more
fig-leafing than occurred already in Titanic would be more gratuitous
than any removal of already extant fig-leafing could have been.  My
preference: Make a decision.  Show it or don't.  Don't play silly
buggers with seeing how much you can "get away with".

To drag this back on-topic: Use what images in articles best illustrate
the articles.  Anything that doesn't enhance the quality of the article
for its informational purpose should be excluded where practical to do
so, including nudity that some people might find objectionable.  Where
it does enhance the quality of the article, it should be included
without apology.  I support doing the best job we can, period, and
handling strange taboos and other not strictly necessary social matters
if we have time later.  Maybe that's just me, though.

This doesn't equate to any kind of statement that we shouldn't
accomodate those with more-restrictive sensibilities, where we can,
though.  I'm sure there are people out there with PHP development skills
for whom a "safe search"-like functionality is important who might
consider putting in the time to work on such a thing.  I would support
such an endeavor, though I might not put much of my own time into it.

. . . not that anyone asked.

Hmm.  I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion.  How did that
happen?

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Chinese Wikinews: board action required

body:
Perhaps it's apparent to all parties, but could somone elaborate on
"Given the struggles that some Wikinews projects have had already"?

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On 4/14/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Given the struggles that some Wikinews projects have had already, I feel
> that we should be very conservative about
> creating new versions.  As Erik says, this is a board decision, and by
> convention on such matters, I vote with Angela
> and Anthere anyway if they disagree with me.
>
> So, unless Angela and Anthere tell me to vote otherwise, I would vote to
> not create Chinese Wikinews at this time, and
> not until we have greater consensus in that community to do it.
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> > There has now been a vote, organized by Formulax, among Chinese
> > language Wikimedians on whether there should be a Chinese Wikinews.
> >
> > The results are at:
> > http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E6%8A%95%E7%A5%A8/%E7%BB%B4%E5%9F%BA%E6%96%B0%E9%97%BB
> >
> >
> > In an amusing demonstration of the problems of voting, there were 13
> > votes opposed to the project, 13 votes in support, and 1 vote with
> > support only if compromises could be made about NPOV.
> >
> > There was a larger vote earlier on whether this should be up to the
> > global community to decide, or to the Chinese community. That vote was
> > inconclusive, too, with opinions evenly split (50% want it to be a
> > global decision, 50% want it to be a local decision) and very strong
> > expressions of emotions on both sides.
> >
> > We can continue voting until we get a nice result, but I think it
> > would be best now for the board to make a decision about this.
> >
> > My recommendation is a compromise: the project should go ahead under
> > somewhat more rigid conditions (at least 10 support votes with at
> > least 6 of them from Wikimedia regulars PLUS the process at
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_language_pre-launch ). We can deal
> > with problems of censorship as they arise.
> >
> > Erik
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Stuart Orford

body:
On 4/15/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Neil Harris wrote:
> > A couple of attempts at contributing (perfectly reasonable) test edits
> > to Encarta have resulted in nothing at all happening to the articles in
> > question. I'm not impressed.
>
> How long ago have you made those edits? Even if their claims of having
> an editorial board check every submitted edit are true, it would
> probably take on the order of weeks or months for your edit to appear.
>
> > The whole experience is extraordinarily lacking in incentive for Encarta
> > contributors, who will effectively see a brick wall, if my experience is
> > anything to go by.
>
> I'm afraid this sounds a lot like bias from your experience with
> Wikipedia. You are used to your edits appearing immediately, so in
> comparison to that, Encarta naturally feels like a "brick wall". It is
> doubtful that the same kind of feeling will be experienced by casual
> users who are unfamiliar with "open-content encyclopedias that post
> their users' edits immediately". Even if they have vaguely heard of it,
> they will probably still readily accept a considerable delay in the
> processing of their contributions in return for what they perceive as
> superior factual accuracy.

I used to contribute to the [[Internet Movie Database]] - I was
hovering around the top 100 contributors level, which would have got
me a free IMDb Pro subscription had I carried on. What put me off in
the end - and caused me to embrace WP - was the "brick wall" effect.
Contributions often take weeks (or months) to appear, and some never
appear at all. Only about 20 editors process millions of contributions
a year, giving no feedback, and sometimes changing edits in seemingly
arbitrary ways. Debate rages between contributors on message boards,
but there's never any chance to build policy by consensus, because
only a few of the editors read the message boards and they're not
bound by anything that's said. And software development is
excruciatingly slow. And the resulting database is the property of
Amazon.

It was frustrating, as you can tell. IMDb may be the most repected
movie database, but as a community it's hell, and I don't expect
Encarta to be much better. Public contribution and closing editing
doesn't scale.


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>>So prudent USGS managers will not ask
>>their minions to do anything for WP during work, because the
>>managers could potentially be held liable as well as the minions,
>>especially should the boobie pictures happen to pop up just as
>>the Congressional oversight committee happens to be walking
>>through.
>>
>
>
>This isn't something we can do anything about.  Perhaps you could try
>voting for some sane congresscritters.
>
>
I *knew* I shouldn't have mentioned Congress, but I was hoping
you wouldn't focus on that and ignore the key point, which is
that this happens at all kinds of companies and government
agencies around the world whether you like it or not. It's just
not as simple as declaring everybody who disagrees with your
attitude "idiotic" and "not sane".

Stan


body:
Fred Bauder said:
> I contributed the word "Wiki" to the collins dictionary site and
> supposedly am to be given credit for discovering the word.
>
> Fred

In honor of this discovery, I decree that the word shall be renamed to
"Fredi".  Thus Wikipedia becomes Fredipedia.


from_name: Joseph Osborne

subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
We had our Familys watching the super bowl when she did that.  Also we did not take the children to see the Titanic!

Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 09:32:49AM -0700, Rick wrote:
>
> --- Tony Sidaway
> wrote:
> >Having
> > said that, I was also
> > utterly baffled by the fuss over the 2004 Superbowl,
> > as were most of my
> > countrymen.
>
> So were many Americans.

Sadly, I wasn't baffled by it. I was merely disappointed and slightly
annoyed by that fuss.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Suggestions for a work-safe encyclopedia

body:
Zach Alexander said:
>
> SPUI wrote:
>
>>
>> "Explicit" is majorly POV. However, it would be possible to have NPOV
>> labels like "bare female breasts" and "human blood". There's been some
>>  discussion at
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/End-user_image_suppression .
>
> You're right

I don't get this. Explicit is just a synonym for "overt".  In the picture
we've been discussing, Kate Winslet's left breast is explicitly bare,
whereas her left breast is only bare by implication.  It's a completely
neutral word, though its meaning in the phrase "explicit content" is
difficult to decipher.   This reader is left scratching his head and
wondering if the phrase has something to do with dark matter.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 09:07:48AM -0700, Rick wrote:
>
> --- Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
> >The matter seems to be settled, somewhat,
> > by now with a
> > close-up of Winslet that doesn't challenge
> > sensibilities, though.
>
> It's only settled because the image was bowdlerized
> while the ifd discussion was still going on.
>

Do you think the new image doesn't serve the purposes of the article as
well as the old image?  If so, I encourage you to support that opinion
and, if I find myself in agreement, I'd throw my support behind your
opinion insofar as I'm willing to even be involved in the discussion.  I
haven't heard/seen any indication that anyone thinks this new image is
worse than the previous, and the consensus seems (from my extremely
limited investigation) to be that it's actually a better image, with the
possible exception of this one comment from you.  Please correct me if
I'm wrong.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Tom Haws

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>Tony Sidaway (minorityreport at bluebottle.com) [050415 22:58]:
>
>
>>pop this into
>>his Censorship file, with the result that he won't be able to download
>>anything that gets put into that article.
>>
>That could be a very good and workable solution, allowing classifications
>to grow organically without a chilling effect on the production of raw
>material..
>
Thumbs up, Tony and David.  Minimal coding; maximum Wiki.

Tom Haws


from_name: Karl A. Krueger

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 12:45:04PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> We don't make the user do anything, but if he wants a censored Wikipedia
> he already has the capability to produce his own; we're hearing from
> people who for whatever reason are unwilling to do so and think that it is
> Wikipedia that should change to accommodate their intransigence.  Thus a
> personal problem has been incorrectly reframed as a problem for Wikipedia.

I think it's been made tolerably obvious at this point that anyone does
have the option to disable images, *and* that users of well-designed
browsers are frequently even capable of displaying or refusing images on
a per-site basis.  This likely doesn't need to be reiterated again.

I'm curious about the proposals for free-form tagging systems, where
users would have the option to block out images or text matching
specific sets of tags that they chose.  I'm not sure that any such
system could actually meet Wikipedia's needs and at the same time
fulfill the desires of those who call for greater restriction on images.

To start with, it's not clear to me that such a system could do what
some people are asking for -- that is, creating a view of Wikipedia that
would be "work-safe" or otherwise fitting some particular content
censorship standard.  That goal seems impossible unless a tagging system
suiting that standard were *mandatory* -- that is, any edit violating
the tagging system would have to be considered abusive.  This is not a
rule that I would expect to garner community consensus, especially since
the judgment of what content merits a particular tag would be POV-laden.

(Consider:  What is the point of a "violence" tag if people who post
images of violence are not required to use it?  People can depend on
such a system only if it is mandatory, but making it mandatory violates
Wikipedia principles ... especially since people can be expected to
disagree on what deserves the label "violence".)

I also think it's pretty clear that *no* such system will suit the goals
of those who really do want to marginalize or exclude "evil" expression
from the public arena.  Those who actually want to _remove_ nudity or
violence or sex education or "cult" content from Wikipedia, under the
belief that such material is harmful to the public morality, will not be
satisfied by mere tagging.

Another concern:  Will the presence of a tagging system legitimize the
behavior of people who really _do_ simply want to post nudity (or
whatever) for its own sake?  We already have the problem that people are
more ready to talk about an image's offensiveness than its relevance.
A tagging system might give an additional argument to people who simply
want to put more nudity or violence or what-have-you on Wikipedia, and
to hell with relevance:  "If you don't want to see it, go turn on more
censorship in your filtering preferences."  This would be unfortunate.

Yet another possible consequence is that people could use a tagging
system as a way of searching Wikipedia for all the "naughty images".
Let us imagine a curious adolescent who today browses Wikipedia looking
for Renaissance nude paintings, swimsuit images like those on
[[Bikini]], the sketches of sexual positions, and so on.  By aggregating
all the nudity in an easy-to-find category, tagging would make it
_easier_, not harder, to use Wikipedia as a source of titillation.

This could even lend itself to greater calls for the deletion of such
material -- since it would make it trivial to construct a "nudes of
Wikipedia" view that would highlight just that particular content.

--
Karl A. Krueger <kkrueger at whoi.edu>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 04:17:16PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Chad Perrin said:
>
> > As far as I
> > can tell, he didn't speculate about the motives of those who disagree
> > with him: he just speculated about the motives behind some (possibly
> > inaccurately perceived) class of postings to Wikipedia.
>
> He did not speculate.  He stated it as a fact.
>
> Suppose he had speculated, though, why would he choose to make such a
> damaging, bad faith, unsupported, and frankly malicious speculation?

I don't know.  You'd have to ask him.  I'm curious, though, as to why
you assume so much evil temper in his motivations.  He speculated
(without specifically stating that it's only speculation: as I said
before, that's probably sloppy phrasing, and not an attempt to make
absolutist statements about the State Of Reality) about a perceived
trend, not about a 100% correspondence between the presence of nipples
in photographs and bad faith intentions.

Your question seems to assume that we, for some reason, are constrained
from ever speculating about patterns of bad-faith behavior.  That
strikes me as a patently ridiculous thing to assume.  Perhaps your
email, as well, suffers from sloppy phrasing that could be misconstrued
as arising from bad faith intent.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Jack Lutz said:
> The people or organizations likely to want content tagging would
> require complete tagging, or else it would be useless to them, right?
> Yet being a wiki and volunteer, Wikipedia could never be "safeguarded"
> to their satisfaction. Is this not a useless discussion?

I think it may be, ultimately, because I suspect that the people making a
clamor about the odd nipple or whatever are probably not going to be
satisfied until the offending object is removed.  I could be wrong,
though, so I don't object to people trying this in an effort to make
Wikipedia better.


body:
Stan Shebs said:
> I think it would be really helpful to the goal of
> encyclopedia creation if it were possible for, say, the USGS to
> assign one of their technical writers to the task of improving WP's
> info on mountain ranges, or seafloor vents, or volcano prediction, plus
> adding pictures that are not currently available on the net.
> That kind of win can't happen if we don't come up with some way
> to better accommodate organizational policies on sexual harassment.
>

So the situation is this.  You think that USGS would be willing to assign
one of its technical writers to improve geometric data, but this chap is
unlikely to want to use Wikipedia in its current state because he might be
falsely accused, by person or persons unknown, of sexual harassment?
Curiouser and curiouser!

I'm afraid you'll have to sort that one out for yourself.  Wikipedia
really shouldn't be involved in accommodating or condoning this kind of
corporate idiocy.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 05:50:26PM +0200, BJ?rn Lindqvist wrote:
> > It's pretty clear that Kevin's statement isn't factually supportable
> > with evidence at hand, but that doesn't change the fact that what could
> > easily be a mere bit of sloppy phrasing was instead treated by Tony as a
> > deliberate and specific accusatory attack.  As I've tried to convey,
> > more than once, I don't think that Kevin's statement provides a very
> > realistic impression of events at hand, the evidence to support Tony's
> > accusations of bad faith on Kevin's part is simply lacking.
>
> You missed my point. Kevin "realized" that people who uploads nudie
> pics are trying to stir up trouble - aka trolling. Therefore, if you
> defend the uploading of nudie pics you are therefore defending
> trolling - aka trolling. Therefore, those who defend displaying
> undressed images in wiki-en are at a disadvantage since they become
> associated with trolling.

It seems that it is you that has missed my point: He may simply have
phrased that poorly, failing to specify the status of that "realization"
as arising from a personal perspective, perhaps because he simply didn't
take the time to consider other possible perspectives.  Nothing in his
mails to the lists that I've seen have indicated that he is intractably
unwilling to rephrase or retract that statement if asked, but I find
the attempts to back him into a corner where he has to defend something
that would be better recanted or rephrased to be, frankly, odious.  You
are making a declaration of his intent without bothering to ask him.
You assume bad faith.

You also assume absolutist applications of what was presented as only a
trend.  He never "realized" that ALL people who upload nude images are
trying to stir up trouble -- only that there (seems to be / is) a
pattern of such behavior arising recently.  Therefore, if you defend the
uploading of nude images WHERE APPROPRIATE, you are NOT defending
trolling, but if you defend it where they are INAPPRPOPRIATE you may
very well be trolling.  THAT is the impression I got from his
statements.  Your assumption that he thinks all nude images are
inappropriate under all circumstances does not seem reasonable to me,
nor does your assumption that, even if did think all nude images are
inappropriate, he couldn't admit the possibility that some people are
merely "misguided" by his standards.

Assume good faith.  Please.  Try it on for size.  You might like it.

>
> > more likely to be definable as paralepses.  In particular, you present
> > as a given the notion that Tony's statements constitute an objection to
> > the use of paralepsis when, in fact, they simply accuse Kevin of making
> > wild accusations.
>
> Yes, we have all heard Tony accusing Kevin of making wild accusations.
> But it's pretty clear that Kevin's statements isn't factually
> supportable. :)

True.  That doesn't alter the factual accuracy of what I said one whit.
Is there a purpose to bringing up this point again?  Are you perhaps
agreeing with my own statement to that effect?

>
> > opinion).  Anything else that either you or Tony has said about Kevin's
> > perfidies seems to this reader at least to be nothing but unfounded
> > speculation.
>
> I don't know what perfidies mean. I'm not associated with Tony so
> please do not lump me together with him. I have not as far as I know
> speculated about anything. It was "literary analysis" as someone else
> called it. Speculation would be something along the lines of: Why is
> someone complaining about two pixels of nipple on one (1) breast on a
> 200x150 pixels wide screenshot from a PG-13 rated movie? Is the nipple
> even visible from a distance of more than 20 cm? Is this person
> objecting to this image to try and stir up trouble? Doesn't anyone
> have any sense of proportions?

Are you going to start accusing me of things for which there's no
evidence now?  I didn't "lump [you] together with him" at all.  I simply
made reference to the fact that you and Tony have both had some harsh
things to say about Kevin's motivations.  Surely you must admit that
there is at least that much in common between what you have said and
what Tony has said here.

I do indeed see "speculation" in what you've been saying, because you
are making statements that pertain to Kevin's motivations and state of
mind.  Since you are not privy to Kevin's motivations or state of mind
any more than allowed by his own statements about such things, any
statements you make on the matter are nothing but speculation.

>
> Sorry to Kevin and everyone else who got "offended" by this image. But
> I really don't think Wikipedia should cater your very speciail needs.

Nor do I, put that way.  I agree that, if appropriate to the subject
matter as a helpful illustration of the article, it should be included.
I do not, however, think that your reaction to Kevin's comments is
strictly reasonable.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sockpuppet onslaught at [[Ward Churchill]]

body:
This looks like POV nutcase vandalism - I've blocked
JailWardChurchillNow and TonySidewer for 72 each.

-Snowspinner

On Apr 15, 2005, at 12:21 PM, Viajero wrote:

> Last night, an agressive POV warrior using the account names
> Carlshooters, Johnnyio, and Jolutz mounted a ferocious assault on
> [[Ward Churchill]]. He was reverted in turns by undersigned,
> Zen-master, Cberlet,  BurtWard, and Boothy443, until the article was
> finally protected by Antandrus. See:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ward_Churchill&action=history
>
> Now, the same individual using the account JailWardChurchillNow just
> has started filling the talk page with his vitriol. See:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:
> Ward_Churchill&action=history
>
> Is there any precedent for having a dev lookup his/her IP number and
> have it blocked for say 72 hours? If not, it is going to be another
> very long night...
>
>
> V.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
Poor, Edmund W said:
>> the semi-fig-leafed scene where
> Jack draws his new girlfriend, are not central to the movie. Even
> though they are real crowd-pleasers, the plot would not have suffered
> by
> editing the car scene so that the frantically-excited couple are merely
> shown getting into the car and doing some intense necking (leave
> something to the imagination). And the drawing scene would have worked
> just as well with PG-type fig-leafing instead of the tantalization of
> "Ohmygosh, is she really showing her wobbly bits?"
>

In my opinion, it would have severely dented the credibility of the
director to have given in more than he did to the puritan sensibilities of
the US domestic audience.  Further fig-leafing would have been as
distracting to most audiences as those disturbingly flat-chested female
centaurs in Fantasia.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Chad Perrin said:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 11:50:01PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
>>
>> We'd all lost the minute that unsupported statement was made by a
>> person who apparently believed he could get away with it.
>
> Again:  Where's the assumption of good faith?

Indeed. Unsupported accusations are prima facie evidence of bad faith.


body:
Zach Alexander said:
> But there's no other long term
> solution I can think of, because we do need to have boobs and
> clitorises in the appropriate places, but people do need to have a way
> not to see them if they'd rather not. (Making the user disable images
> doesn't count as a solution.)

We don't make the user do anything, but if he wants a censored Wikipedia
he already has the capability to produce his own; we're hearing from
people who for whatever reason are unwilling to do so and think that it is
Wikipedia that should change to accommodate their intransigence.  Thus a
personal problem has been incorrectly reframed as a problem for Wikipedia.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 09:27:21AM -0700, Rick wrote:
>
> --- Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 09:07:48AM -0700, Rick
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
> > > >The matter seems to be settled, somewhat,
> > > > by now with a
> > > > close-up of Winslet that doesn't challenge
> > > > sensibilities, though.
> > >
> > > It's only settled because the image was
> > bowdlerized
> > > while the ifd discussion was still going on.
> > >
> >
> > Do you think the new image doesn't serve the
> > purposes of the article as
> > well as the old image?  If so, I encourage you to
> > support that opinion
> > and, if I find myself in agreement, I'd throw my
> > support behind your
> > opinion insofar as I'm willing to even be involved
> > in the discussion.  I
> > haven't heard/seen any indication that anyone thinks
> > this new image is
> > worse than the previous, and the consensus seems
> > (from my extremely
> > limited investigation) to be that it's actually a
> > better image, with the
> > possible exception of this one comment from you.
> > Please correct me if
> > I'm wrong.
>
> Honestly, no, the censored image does not serve a more
> useful function.  The scene of DiCaprio's character
> sketching a semi-nude Winslet character is integral to
> the plot of the story.  A cropped photo of Winslet's
> face may be fine as an illustration of the [[Kate
> Winslet]] article, but not for the Titanic article.

Very well.  I retract my characterization of the issue as "settled", and
I actually find that I'm sympathetic to your point.  The next question
that arises, then, is whether the fact that the sketching scene was
integral to the plot makes an image depicting that scene of integral
importance to the article.  Does the fact of that scene's importance to
the plot imply that it is somehow more suited to illustrating the
article than a recognizable representation of one of the primary actors
in the movie?

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 09:32:49AM -0700, Rick wrote:
>
> --- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
> wrote:
> >Having
> > said that, I was also
> > utterly baffled by the fuss over the 2004 Superbowl,
> > as were most of my
> > countrymen.
>
> So were many Americans.

Sadly, I wasn't baffled by it.  I was merely disappointed and slightly
annoyed by that fuss.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
I don't think we should build a Simple German Wikipedia, and I think
we need to try to gradually phase the Simple English one into
nothingness.

Mark

On 15/04/05, Wouter Steenbeek <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > ? the existance of a Simple
> > > English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
> >
> >That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a
> >success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very
> >unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be
> >writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for
> >children or learners of English as an additional language. The
> >majority of articles are stubs and there has been little interest in
> >extending them. Very little, if any, community has ever formed at the
> >site. Suggesting the Simple English wiki be closed seems a better
> >option to me than using its existence to justify the creation of other
> >projects.
> >
> >If enough people believe the Simple German one can work, then that
> >could be trialed, but the existence of the failing English version
> >should not be used as the reason for creating this.
> >
> >Angela
> >Administrator of the Simple English Wikipedia
>
> The fact that the Simple English wikipedia did not succeed so far (I won't
> say failed, because that sounds far too definitive to me) is certainly a
> reason for serious contemplation en reconsideration of this proposal. On the
> other hand, we could learn from what went wrong so far on simple: when
> starting einfach:, and build a frim community with clear goals and
> arrangements first. And attract enough willing contributors, of course.
>
> Wouter
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Speel online games via MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Re: FOLDOC, acknowledgments and GFDL

body:
> ...which will be great when someone gets round to writing that "Give me the
> next 500..." code.

It's been written, It'll be in 1.5.


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Re: Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

body:
"Andrew Lih" <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote in
message news:2ed171fb05041420024e2114eb at mail.gmail.com...
> FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be
> of interest:
>
>---
> How are my suggested edits researched?
>
> Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School
> are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in
> research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for
> possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta
> community.

Makes you wonder where *they* do their research.
--
Phil
Suddenly struck by the possible delicious irony of Encarta's checkers using
Wikipedia...yeah, unlikely, I know, but we can dream about it ;-)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Language conversion

body:
Hi Zhengzhu,

It doesn't yet convert the interface :)

Mark

On 15/04/05, zhengzhu <zhengzhu at gmail.com> wrote:
> > If you can send me the conversion tables/rules between Cyrillics and
> > Latin alphabet for Serbian, I should be able to put out a preliminary
> > test site quickly. Supporting multiple variants should be doable as
> > well.
>
> I have put up a test site for the Serbian language that supports
> Cyrillics and Latin alphabets: http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/sr/
>
>  Just for the fun of it, I also made a English version, running at
> http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/en/
>
> --
> zhengzhu
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Also, as far as I know, there is only one Latin <> Cyrillic, so you
don't need the 4 different varieties.

Mark

PS
Another potential problem is an all-caps environment: a Cyrillic
letter which becomes a Latin digraph, if in a word of all caps, will
still be Caps-lowercase instead of Caps-caps as it should be.

Not sure how this could be solved...

Mark

On 15/04/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Zhengzhu,
>
> It doesn't yet convert the interface :)
>
> Mark
>
> On 15/04/05, zhengzhu <zhengzhu at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > If you can send me the conversion tables/rules between Cyrillics and
> > > Latin alphabet for Serbian, I should be able to put out a preliminary
> > > test site quickly. Supporting multiple variants should be doable as
> > > well.
> >
> > I have put up a test site for the Serbian language that supports
> > Cyrillics and Latin alphabets: http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/sr/
> >
> >  Just for the fun of it, I also made a English version, running at
> > http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/en/
> >
> > --
> > zhengzhu
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikinews-l] Chinese Wikinews: board
	actionrequired

body:
"Angela" <beesley at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8b722b80050414211939302ff4 at mail.gmail.com...
[snip]
> One solution could be for Wikimedia to support the
> project being hosted elsewhere without it being an official Wikimedia
> project, if any of the supporters of the project wanted to find
> alternative hosting for it. It wouldn't be able to use the Wikinews
> trademarks, but would mean that those who want to work on it could do
> so, and if there is ever a consensus for the project within Wikimedia,
> we could move it back here then.

Maybe it could be a new Wikicities entry?
--
Phil


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
Andrew Lih wrote:
> FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be
> of interest:
>
> ---
> How are my suggested edits researched?
>
> Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School
> are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in
> research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for
> possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta
> community.

Microsoft has extended an invitation for me to come and give a talk in
Redmond.  I'll also see if I can give a talk at the University of
Washington Information School.  It would be interesting to chat with
these graduate students, I think, to learn more about their experience.

--Jimbo


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Kate Winslet Exposure

body:
Chris Jenkinson wrote:

>Actually, we were discussing this very issue on IRC earlier. The main
>problem we found with this was that it would be a new target for
>vandals - to recategorise various images into unrelated categories.
>Also, when going through the filter to select categories that they do
>not wish to see, people might find it objectionable to have content
>like beheadings or sexual activity available for people to view. I'm
>assuming of course that all 'categories' of images like this would be
>on by default - also, this would only be practical if it were for
>registered users, of which the vast majority of visitors aren't.
>
>
Google has SafeSearch - and how many millions of people use Google?

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> It is linked from every single page on Wikipedia.

The relivant part isn't (or wasn't when I last cheacked).

--
geni


from_name: Andrew Cranwell

body:
Faraaz Damji wrote:

>The old argument is true: if you don't want to see a clitoris, then
>don't go to [[clitoris]].
>
<snip>

>Also, if I want to learn more about what something like
>[[autofellatio]] is, I should be able to choose to display images as a
>link if I want.  Even if I want to learn about [[autofellatio]], I might
>not want to have a picture of a guy masturbating appear right next to
>the information
>
Suppose I want to learn about something. I look it up in an
encyclopedia. The paper kind. I might happen to see something offensive.
But how do I know I could see something offensive unless I know what it is?

Your argument  "if you don't want to see a clitoris, don't go to
clitoris" doesn't help people who don't know what a clitoris is.
Therefore, saying "I might
not want to have a picture of a guy masturbating appear right next to
the information" falls into the same category - you can't object to
something if you don't know what it is. It's like goatse - highly
offensive, but unless you know what it is, you can't avoid it.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Karl A. Krueger wrote:

>On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 04:34:20PM +0100, Zach Alexander wrote:
>
>
>>Alphax wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Er, the Kate Winslet nude is only marginally "nude". If it's such a
>>>problem, use a tabbed browser or disable images.
>>>
>>>
>>"Marginally nude" is still nudity. One breast counts as nudity.
>>
>>
>
>In some cultures, exposure of the female *face* in public is "nudity".
>
>
>
As I jokingly said earlier, but yes. In some cultures, the face of a
prophet cannot be shown.

>>You can argue that nudity should be allowed on Wikipedia, and I might
>>even agree with you, but a spade's a spade.
>>
>>
>
>Of course nudity should be allowed on Wikipedia, just as explicit
>pictures of tomatoes should be allowed.  After all, the world contains
>both nudity and tomatoes, and Wikipedia's job is to describe the world.
>
>
The reality of NPOV is that we can't disallow anything that isn't illegal.

>>And you can't seriously mean that disabling images is a real solution
>>to the problem. We'd have to have a notice on the main page, e.g.
>>"Note: Nudity may appear in any entry. If you are offended by nudity,
>>please disable images in your browser." I don't think that would go
>>over well.
>>
>>
>
>We already have a [[Wikipedia:Content disclaimer]] linked from the main
>page.  It is at least as prominent as other quasi-legal notices posted
>on other Web sites, which purport to advise the reader of site policies
>-- for instance, privacy policies on many commercial Web sites.
>
>
>
We could have {{images}} at the top of pages with images, saying
something like "This page contains images, which you may or may not be
offended by".

>>How hard would it be to add to Mediawiki the option to tag explicit
>>images, and have an option in the preferences to not see them? A la
>>Google SafeSearch. This might be a win-win (aside from the programming
>>work) solution.
>>
>>
>
>This has been brought up time and again here.
>
>Censorware tagging on Wikipedia is a little bit like "email postage" as
>an anti-spam solution -- it can't work; there are reasonably clear
>reasons it can't work; but it keeps getting proposed anyway.
>
>
>
And yet Google SafeSearch appears to work...

>(The chief reason "email postage" can't work as an anti-spam solution is
>that spammers already steal other people's computing resources to send
>spam, e.g. using virus-infected computers, and would quite readily adapt
>to foist the "postage" cost off on innocents similarly.  Ordinary mail
>users would be stuck with the "postage" while spammers would keep
>screwing over everyone else, just as they have always done.  And all
>non-commercial mailing lists, such as this one, would be destroyed.)
>
>
>What's wrong with censorware tagging?  Where to start?  Here's the
>biggie:  tagging is incompatible with Wikipedia's existing commitments.
>
>No system of tags is compatible with Wikipedia's commitment to
>neutrality.  The dimensions, biases, and extremes of any system of tags
>are created from a particular non-neutral point of view.  Wikipedia is
>categorically forbidden from taking on such a point of view as its own.
>
>By "dimensions" I mean the types of material that are considered worth
>tagging -- e.g. nudity; violence; religion.  The reason that commercial
>censorware products have an "explicit nudity" dimension and not a
>"explicit Christianity" dimension should be tolerably obvious in the
>marketplace -- but Wikipedia does not have any business deciding for its
>readers that "nudity" is problematic and needs to be a filtering option
>but "Christianity" doesn't.
>
>By "biases" I mean the inherent bigotries that will be encoded into any
>particular category.  A system which considers female breasts to be
>"nudity" but male chests not to be is sexist by nature.  (And anyone who
>thinks that female breasts are "sexual" but male chests are not simply
>has not asked enough straight women or gay men for their opinion on the
>issue.)
>
>By "extremes" I mean the judgment as to what is the "mildest" category
>of "objectionable content" which still merits tagging -- and what
>constitutes "mild" or "extreme".  A system which tags exposure of the
>female breast, but not of the female ankle or face expresses a POV as to
>what is "acceptable" exposure.  A system which tags explicit sexual
>activity but does not consider a homosexual kiss to be "explicit sexual
>activity" expresses a bias about an issue that many people apparently
>find offensive.
>
>
So are we prepared to sacrifice a tiny bit of NPOVness to make something
of a higher quality? If we were truly neutral, we would prohibit
deletion of material from articles, and the let article build up as a
series of assertions. Readers would decide for themselves.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Chad Perrin said:
>
> 1.  Tony Sidaway supports the idea that Wikipedia should be technically
> effective, and to heck with social factors that interfere with that in
> any way.

More or less correct in this case, but only because the problem is not a
technical one but a social one and my social solution is geared towards
minimizing technical kludges.  Only the end-user can possibly know what he
does and does not want to see. If he visits an encyclopedia article about
a PG13 movie he should expect it to contain PG13 illustrations, and if he
is likely to have a problem with images from the movies he may want to
read about he should certainly take appropriate precautions.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
Poor, Edmund W said:
> Tony may have confused "garland fig-leafing" with "flat-chestedness":
>
> * The female centaurs in that sequence were originally bare-breasted,
> but the Hays office insisted that discreet garlands be hung around
> their necks.

I don't recall that.  I do recall watching the restored version, about ten
years ago now, which had no garlands but did have flat-chested female
centaurs who had no nipples. I remember being a little flummoxed by the
lack of nipples at the time. I've got that version at home so I'll try to
remember to have another look.


from_name: Rick

body:
--- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> This looks like POV nutcase vandalism - I've blocked
>
> JailWardChurchillNow and TonySidewer for 72 each.
>
> -Snowspinner

Tony Sidewer should be blocked indefinitely as an
impostor.

RickK

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http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
--- Joseph Osborne <josephosborne2005 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> We had our Familys watching the super bowl when she
> did that.  Also we did not take the children to see
> the Titanic!

And?  How does a couple of seconds of bare breast harm
anybody?

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Mediawiki and mysql 5

body:
Well, I installed version 4.1 and was able to get up and running.  I
would have to say, this is one of the nicest apps I have ever installed
(once I stopped using alpha grad software that is).

Thanks for the help.

--
End of line

On Apr 15, 2005, at 1:33 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:

> Tom Cherry wrote:
>> # Connected as root (automatic)
>> # Connected to database... 5.0.2-alpha; enabling MySQL 4 enhancements
> [snip]
>> Sorry! The wiki is experiencing some technical difficulties, and
>> cannot
>> contact the database server.
>
> Please read the section in RELEASE-NOTES about MySQL 4.1.
>
>
> Note also that MySQL 5.0 is an early beta version; you should not be
> using it unless you're deliberately testing bleeding-edge code.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
geni said:
>> It is linked from every single page on Wikipedia.
>
> The relivant part isn't (or wasn't when I last cheacked).

It's at the top of the disclaimer.  The only text prior to that is the
article title (Wikipedia:General disclaimer) and the attribution (From
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)  It reads as follows:

"General disclaimer - Use Wikipedia at your own risk - Wikipedia does not
give medical advice - Wikipedia does not give legal opinions - Wikipedia
contains spoilers and content you may find objectionable"

The latter phrase is linked to the content disclaimer which expands
further on  the kind of stuff to expect.


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Alexa.com blogs about Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> It would be especially neat if we could get at least a little bit of
> server space somewhere in Africa, Australia, and South America.
>
> Having said that, it would also be easy/nice to get server space in
> California or somewhere else in the Western US (Google would be
> California, would it not?)
>
> I think that it's always best to have everything distributed over
> multiple locations in case of a disaster, natural or otherwise (this
> way, we won't have to worry about Wikipedia in hurricanes, and if one
> location gets broken into/burns down/explodes/disappears mysteriously
> in a puff of steam, Wikipedia will not have problems because of it).

Domas has been advocating further expansion of the Florida colo, and I
can see his point. Even a 10ms RTT delay (say from Tampa to Miami) would
have a large negative impact on performance if we tried to have a single
memcached namespace stretching over both locations. Our idea for using
the European and Asian data centres is to move entire wikis. Each wiki
needs to be served by a master database server and a cluster of apaches
in close proximity to each other.

Because of this need for clustering, I don't think we can reasonably
expect to be able to cope with the Tampa colo disappearing without some
reduction in performance. It's not worth having a slow wiki 365 days a
year just so that we can recover quickly after a one in a million chance
event. However, it's reasonable to expect that there will be no loss of
data, and that we'll be able to get read-only service up fairly quickly.

Squid servers are a different story, they can be spread all over the
world. There's no preference for clumping them together except for
convenience of administration and maintenance. Performance-wise, it's
better if they're near the users. That's why we've set up a page for
organisations that wish to volunteer to host individual squids:

http://wp.wikidev.net/Volunteer_Squid_Sites

-- Tim Starling


subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Pointless Waste of Time]]

body:
--- geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/15/05, MacGyverMagic/Mgm
> <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm not sure whether this has already been posted
> to the mailing list.
> > The VFD of this page is being invaded by vandals
> and needs regular
> > reverting. The article and its talk page are
> already protected and
> > they aren't showing any intent of stopping.
> > (see also the link to the forum with the "call to
> arms" on [[WP:AN/I]].
>
> It's slowing. It's not a problem.

The guy who calls himself "John Cheese" although
threatened to vandalize the article with goatse.  I
suggested this would not be a good thing.

RickK

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Rebecca said:
> I really think this comes down to an issue of accessibility. If we're
> aiming to build a large, open and accessible encyclopedia, then I
> don't think it helps that cause to effectively limit its readership to
> the most extremely liberal people on the planet - which rules out a
> vast amount of our potential readers and contributors.

There are no a priori access restrictions on Wikipedia.  If the pictures
offend you, don't download them.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Chad Perrin said:
>
> It's pretty clear that Kevin's statement isn't factually supportable
> with evidence at hand, but that doesn't change the fact that what could
> easily be a mere bit of sloppy phrasing was instead treated by Tony as
> a deliberate and specific accusatory attack.

It's quite clear that the intent was to discredit those who disagreed with
Kevin by questioning their motives and directly attacking their good
faith.  It was a vile accusation, insupportable and unworthy of this list.


from_name: Ilya Haykinson

body:
On 4/15/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/15/05, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Maybe it could be a new Wikicities entry?
>
> If the main objection to starting Chinese Wikinews is that it could
> lead to Wikipedia being blocked, then I'm not too sure it would be
> welcome at Wikicities either, since there are already four Chinese
> language wikis there which would be subjected to this risk of
> blocking.

For what it's worth-- a recent Associated Press article
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7501488/) mentions that China seems to
filter on keyword and not domain, these days.

-ilya


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
Arkady Rose wrote:

> Joseph Osborne <josephosborne2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We had our Familys watching the super bowl when she
>> did that.  Also we did not take the children to see
>> the Titanic!
>>
>>
> I presume said children weren't breastfed then. Heaven forfend that
> children should be exposed to the sight of something as normal and
> natural as a human breast.
>
> Tell me, do you insist on cows' udders being covered by appropriate
> garments before you let them look at a picture too?

Why does the tone of inquiry from this side of the issue so often turn
mocking and taunting like this?  Does this help?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Kate Winslet Exposure

body:
Alphax said:
>>
>>
> Google has SafeSearch - and how many millions of people use Google?
>

I agree.  If we do have server-side filtering, we should use the highest
level of censorship as a default so that nobody can complain that they
didn't ask for what they got (otherwise, why bother doing it?)  It should
be possible to override this by setting preferences and obtaining a
long-term site cookie, without having to log in.  This would make
Wikipedia's behavior similar to Google's.


from_name: mbecker ™

subject: [Wikitech-l] Nasty messages (bugs?)...

body:
When I tried to view the following page
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&target=mbecker&hideminor=0&namespace=6
I got the following error message:
Database error
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
For Mbecker (Talk)
A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in
the software. The last attempted database query was:

    (SQL query hidden)

from within function "wfSpecialContributions". MySQL returned error
"1053: Server shutdown in progress (10.0.0.2)".

Also, when looking at the source of this page I found the following:
Warning:  mysql_query(): Unable to save result set in
/usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.4/includes/Database.php on
line 325

Also, in case this helps:

Also, on a different page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:#20406
which is linked to by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3AIpblocklist I get the
following:
Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in
/usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.4/index.php on line 50


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

references:
<d3n2i4$i4p$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<2ed171fb05041420024e2114eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d3od5v$8vq$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Hi,

Le Friday 15 April 2005 14:51, Phil Boswell a ?crit :
> >---
> > How are my suggested edits researched?
> >
> > Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School
> > are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in
> > research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for
> > possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta
> > community.
>
> Makes you wonder where *they* do their research.
> Phil
>?Suddenly struck by the possible delicious irony of Encarta's checkers using
>?Wikipedia...yeah, unlikely, I know, but we can dream about it ;-)

Not so unlikely if they use a search engine whose name begins by G or Y. ;o)

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Wouter Steenbeek

body:
>"Andrew Lih" <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote in
>message news:2ed171fb05041420024e2114eb at mail.gmail.com...
> > FYI, something I just found on the Encarta Feedback FAQ, that might be
> > of interest:
> >
> >---
> > How are my suggested edits researched?
> >
> > Graduate students at the University of Washington Information School
> > are fact-checking all proposed changes to Encarta. They are trained in
> > research and passionate about corroborating facts. Stay tuned for
> > possible plans to expand our pool of researchers to the Encarta
> > community.
>
>Makes you wonder where *they* do their research.
>--
>Phil
And /where/ they check it. I am a student myself, and I check virtually
everything on Wikipedia, even things concerning my study :-) .

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
Speel online games via MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] sorry

body:
I apologise for just having sent the same silly message twice.

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
Direct antwoord op je vragen: gebruik MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/


from_name: Tels

subject: [Wikitech-l] "target=_blank"-behaviour for external links?

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Moin,

On Friday 15 April 2005 11:09, Philipp wrote:
> Hi,
>
> first I thought this might be a frequently asked question but I
> researched half an hour and it also appears not to be a frequently
> answered question. So - subject says it already:
>
> Is there a possibility/parameter (or patch) which opens a new window
> when left-clicking something like
> [http:/www.domain.tld/directory/filename.html Click here]?
>
> Just like  href="http:/www.domain.tld/directory/filename.html">Click here?

Hopefully not, I hate it, when a site wants to dicatate how, where and
when I open new windows or tabs. :)

Best wishes,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Fri Apr 15 15:56:14 2005 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "Laugh and the world laughs with you, snore and you sleep alone." --
 Unknown

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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

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body:
On 4/15/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> Chad Perrin said:
> >
> > 1.  Tony Sidaway supports the idea that Wikipedia should be technically
> > effective, and to heck with social factors that interfere with that in
> > any way.
>
> More or less correct in this case, but only because the problem is not a
> technical one but a social one and my social solution is geared towards
> minimizing technical kludges.  Only the end-user can possibly know what he
> does and does not want to see. If he visits an encyclopedia article about
> a PG13 movie he should expect it to contain PG13 illustrations, and if he
> is likely to have a problem with images from the movies he may want to
> read about he should certainly take appropriate precautions.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

I wasn't aware that social enginearing was the aim of this project.

--
geni


body:
geni said:
> On 4/15/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>> Chad Perrin said:
>> >
>> > 1.  Tony Sidaway supports the idea that Wikipedia should be
>> > technically effective, and to heck with social factors that
>> > interfere with that in any way.
>>
>> More or less correct in this case, but only because the problem is not
>> a technical one but a social one and my social solution is geared
>> towards minimizing technical kludges.  Only the end-user can possibly
>> know what he does and does not want to see. If he visits an
>> encyclopedia article about a PG13 movie he should expect it to contain
>> PG13 illustrations, and if he is likely to have a problem with images
>> from the movies he may want to read about he should certainly take
>> appropriate precautions.
>
> I wasn't aware that social enginearing was the aim of this project.
>

Nor I.  There are social considerations implicit in the design of a
website, but ultimately one should seek to leave all decisions with the
user.  Commercial websites seldom adopt this stance, but it's an essential
element of good design.


from_name: Blanke, Tobias

subject: [Wikitech-l] left menubar

body:
Hi there,

where can i change the entries of the left menu bar?

I didn't found any informations on web and I couldn't

localize the position at the source code.

Thank you for help.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Chad Perrin said:

> As far as I
> can tell, he didn't speculate about the motives of those who disagree
> with him: he just speculated about the motives behind some (possibly
> inaccurately perceived) class of postings to Wikipedia.

He did not speculate.  He stated it as a fact.

Suppose he had speculated, though, why would he choose to make such a
damaging, bad faith, unsupported, and frankly malicious speculation?


from_name: mm

subject: [Wikitech-l] How to read database using only mysql?

body:
mm wrote:

> I have a question. Can I read a local wikpedia database using only mtsql?
> Can somebody help me?
> How can I do this?
> Thanks,
> Mircea
>
Yes, indeed you can. It's easiest to access the cur_table (the current
version of articles, not the history).

Get a Wikipedia cur_table dump, install mysql, tweak its config
parameters a bit so it can read the very large chunks the DB dump is
written in, and execute the dump as a set of mysql commands. This will
build and populate a copy of the database, which you can then directly
read using SQL commands to mysql.
A lot of the structure of the database is self-evident, but you will
need a bit of advice to get the finer details of all the information in
the dump. Backup dumps contain compressed data, and are harder, but not
at all impossible, to access.

The same goes for accessing live data from your own local Wikipedia
installation's database, if you have one.

-- Neil

Dear Neil,
Thanks a lot and please give me more info.
I am running Linus Fedora Core 3. Somebody tel me that I need some files
for every database.
For instance I have: db.frm, db.MYD, db.MIY in /var/lib/mysql/mysql.
I have 2 dumps (20050309_cur_table.sql, 20050309_old_table.sql) for
Romanian wikipedia on directory
/mnt/120GB/nou-01-24/MyD/01/Lucrari_Wikipedia/wikipedia-ro
I also have one English version couple of files and intend to read from
it eider.
Next I hope to write some C code to access info from database.
Thanks again,
Mircea


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
> >From: <pentiumforever at email.de>
> >Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia
> >Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:40:05 +0200
> >
> >Hi,
> >at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
> >
> >If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much
of
> >the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in
> >the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and
> >teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that
the
> >Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I
> >would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
> >
> >What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the
> >roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
> >
> >pentiumforever
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

Would make more sense if you proposed a Simple German Wikipedia, although
judging by the performance of the Simple English one, I can't see there
being many good contributors.


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
Angela wrote:

>On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>? the existance of a Simple
>>English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
>>
>>
>
>That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a
>success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very
>unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be
>writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for
>children or learners of English as an additional language. The
>majority of articles are stubs and there has been little interest in
>extending them. Very little, if any, community has ever formed at the
>site. Suggesting the Simple English wiki be closed seems a better
>option to me than using its existence to justify the creation of other
>projects.
>
>If enough people believe the Simple German one can work, then that
>could be trialed, but the existence of the failing English version
>should not be used as the reason for creating this.
>
>
I agree with this, having occasionally peered over at simple: but never
really having gotten interested in it enough to edit significantly.

I do think the idea is admirable, but perhaps some of the same goals
could be accomplished by making the existing Wikipedias somewhat easier
to read. I've run across quite a few en: articles that use diction not
in common use since the 19th century (and I don't just mean the ones
imported from EB1911). That has a certain charm, but more people being
able to read our encyclopedia has greater benefits, IMO.

I don't necessarily mean to reduce the writing level to that of a
typical American newspaper (which are purposely targetted to a
7th-to-8th-grade level to maximize the potential audience), but I think
there is some reasonable middle ground.

-Mark


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Re: Re: FOLDOC, acknowledgments and GFDL

body:
"?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason" <avarab at gmail.com>
wrote in message news:51dd1af805041506302887ac97 at mail.gmail.com...
> > ...which will be great when someone gets round to writing that "Give me
> > the
> > next 500..." code.
> It's been written, It'll be in 1.5.

Kewl. I must remember to find where to put my suggestion about displaying
"what-links-here" links through templates in the same fashion as REDIRECT
pages...

Now where did I put that tuit?
--
Phil


from_name: zhengzhu

body:
> If you can send me the conversion tables/rules between Cyrillics and
> Latin alphabet for Serbian, I should be able to put out a preliminary
> test site quickly. Supporting multiple variants should be doable as
> well.

I have put up a test site for the Serbian language that supports
Cyrillics and Latin alphabets: http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/sr/

 Just for the fun of it, I also made a English version, running at
http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/en/

--
zhengzhu


subject: [Wikitech-l] Language conversion


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On 4/15/05, Philipp <wikilist-1 at e-something.de> wrote:
> first I thought this might be a frequently asked question but I researched half
> an hour and it also appears not to be a frequently answered question. So -
> subject says it already:

It is rather a FAQ, and it generally causes something of a heated
debate between those who think the site designer should choose such
behaviours, and those who feel it should be left to the user. I don't
feel like getting into it again, so I'll just point you to some past
threads:

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-l/2005-January/thread.html#2919
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-l/2005-February/#3406

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Domas Mituzas

subject: [Wikitech-l] mailing lists

body:
there was an incident with postfix mail delivery software (some corrupted spool files crashed queue manager), therefore you all poor souls had to suffer mailing list withdrawal. Seems to be working lately.

Cheers,
Domas


subject: [Wikitech-l] REDIRECT to anchor

body:
On 4/13/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> I added "it is possible this feature will be implemented in future, so
> such redirects can be used now for future compatibility" to
> [[Wikipedia:How to edit a page]] last February. I still believe it's
> true, despite Bugzilla.

Well, it's not looking hopeful, really. Though I still think a custom
"redirected from" message would be a helpful approach. But only
if/when we have a stable way of linking to sections *at all* - the
current ability to break all such links by editting the heading makes
it unsuitable for links designed to last as long untouched as the
average redirect does.

Also, in reference to Timwi's comment on bug 218 about not wanting an
extra from= param to  exist, I think it worth mentionning that
interwiki redirects really need this rather badly, so that you can get
back and edit the redirect. I can see the point about not wanting too
many things to end up uncacheable though, so I'm not sure it's a good
idea to use it for "ordinary" redirects. And as I've said before, I'm
unsure that dumping a user in the middle of an article is always the
best idea anyway.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
Rick said:
>
> --- Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
>>The matter seems to be settled, somewhat,
>> by now with a
>> close-up of Winslet that doesn't challenge
>> sensibilities, though.
>
> It's only settled because the image was bowdlerized
> while the ifd discussion was still going on.

In my opinion the image there now (which is of far superior resolution)
shows all the essential elements of the scene.  In particular, her face is
clearer and you can see the jewel hanging at her throat.  She's obviously
naked though this is implied rather than explicit.  The nipple isn't
essential to the picture, though I find it quite baffling that it has
caused so many people to kick up a fuss.  Having said that, I was also
utterly baffled by the fuss over the 2004 Superbowl, as were most of my
countrymen.


from_name: pentiumforever at email.de

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
Hi,
at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)

If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much of the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that the Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I would be managed a Wiki for this in German.

What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?

pentiumforever


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
Good idea. There is already a Simple English wikipedia; this initiative is
similar. And since the German wikipedia is the second largest, finding
enough willing contributers is a sure bet!

Wouter

>From: <pentiumforever at email.de>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia
>Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:40:05 +0200
>
>Hi,
>at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
>
>If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much of
>the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in
>the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and
>teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that the
>Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I
>would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
>
>What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the
>roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
>
>pentiumforever
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
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>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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from_name: ClockworkSoul

subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Pointless Waste of Time]]

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

>I'm not sure whether this has already been posted to the mailing list.
>The VFD of this page is being invaded by vandals and needs regular
>reverting. The article and its talk page are already protected and
>they aren't showing any intent of stopping.
>(see also the link to the forum with the "call to arms" on [[WP:AN/I]].
>
>--Mgm
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
They all seem to want it deleted, so I say that we should not only keep
it, but polish it to featured article status. ;)

-ClockworkSoul


from_name: BJörn Lindqvist

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> It's pretty clear that Kevin's statement isn't factually supportable
> with evidence at hand, but that doesn't change the fact that what could
> easily be a mere bit of sloppy phrasing was instead treated by Tony as a
> deliberate and specific accusatory attack.  As I've tried to convey,
> more than once, I don't think that Kevin's statement provides a very
> realistic impression of events at hand, the evidence to support Tony's
> accusations of bad faith on Kevin's part is simply lacking.

You missed my point. Kevin "realized" that people who uploads nudie
pics are trying to stir up trouble - aka trolling. Therefore, if you
defend the uploading of nudie pics you are therefore defending
trolling - aka trolling. Therefore, those who defend displaying
undressed images in wiki-en are at a disadvantage since they become
associated with trolling.

> more likely to be definable as paralepses.  In particular, you present
> as a given the notion that Tony's statements constitute an objection to
> the use of paralepsis when, in fact, they simply accuse Kevin of making
> wild accusations.

Yes, we have all heard Tony accusing Kevin of making wild accusations.
But it's pretty clear that Kevin's statements isn't factually
supportable. :)

> opinion).  Anything else that either you or Tony has said about Kevin's
> perfidies seems to this reader at least to be nothing but unfounded
> speculation.

I don't know what perfidies mean. I'm not associated with Tony so
please do not lump me together with him. I have not as far as I know
speculated about anything. It was "literary analysis" as someone else
called it. Speculation would be something along the lines of: Why is
someone complaining about two pixels of nipple on one (1) breast on a
200x150 pixels wide screenshot from a PG-13 rated movie? Is the nipple
even visible from a distance of more than 20 cm? Is this person
objecting to this image to try and stir up trouble? Doesn't anyone
have any sense of proportions?

Sorry to Kevin and everyone else who got "offended" by this image. But
I really don't think Wikipedia should cater your very special needs.

--
mvh Bj?rn


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 15.04.05 17:44:29:
>
> > >From: <pentiumforever at email.de>
> > >Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > >To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > >Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia
> > >Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:40:05 +0200
> > >
> > >Hi,
> > >at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
> > >
> > >If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much
> of
> > >the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in
> > >the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and
> > >teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that
> the
> > >Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I
> > >would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
> > >
> > >What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the
> > >roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
> > >
> > >pentiumforever
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> Would make more sense if you proposed a Simple German Wikipedia, although
> judging by the performance of the Simple English one, I can't see there
> being many good contributors.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

I have understand the term of the simpel English Wikipedia so that they want to create a Wikipedia with a easy English (language), I think this is very good for non English people with a not so good English. My term is it to create a Wikipedia that use a easy German and discribe it easy that mean that there should be no words, beside it is impossibel, they are not for the whole people (particularly kids and teenagers) not easy understand. And if we must use one of this words we should discribe it. It should be of a layer for kids between 10 to 16!

The discribtion is not good but I hope ii is enough for the moment!

pentiumforever


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
>I have understand the term of the simpel English Wikipedia so that they
>want to create a Wikipedia with a easy English (language), I think this is
>very good for non English people with a not so good English. My term is it
>to create a Wikipedia that use a easy German and discribe it easy that mean
>that there should be no words, beside it is impossibel, they are not for
>the whole people (particularly kids and teenagers) not easy understand. And
>if we must use one of this words we should discribe it. It should be of a
>layer for kids between 10 to 16!
>
>The discribtion is not good but I hope ii is enough for the moment!
>
>pentiumforever

One of the Simple English Wikipedia's main target groups /are/ children,
pentiumforever. Check it out at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_English_language . Children speakers of
English face exactly the same problem as you discribe. So your proposal is
indeed very analogous to the existing Simple English wikipedia. By the way,
you should post your proposal on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages. I suggest the
domain einfach.wikipedia.org.

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
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from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
Hi,

wouldn't be Wikijunior a good project for this?
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior

Just take up specific topics, write on it for kids and group it to
books, link it to the normal wikipedia and the wikipedia to wikibooks
and you have it connected and kids can read easy stuff.

Ciao, Sabine
--
Sabine Cretella
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
skype: sabinecretella

pentiumforever at email.de wrote:

>Hi,
>at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
>
>If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much of the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that the Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
>
>What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
>
>pentiumforever
>
>


from_name: Richard Holton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
On 4/15/05, Tom Haws <hawstom at sprintmail.com> wrote:
> Arkady Rose wrote:
>
> > Joseph Osborne <josephosborne2005 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> We had our Familys watching the super bowl when she
> >> did that.  Also we did not take the children to see
> >> the Titanic!
> >>
> >>
> > I presume said children weren't breastfed then. Heaven forfend that
> > children should be exposed to the sight of something as normal and
> > natural as a human breast.
> >
> > Tell me, do you insist on cows' udders being covered by appropriate
> > garments before you let them look at a picture too?
>
> Why does the tone of inquiry from this side of the issue so often turn
> mocking and taunting like this?  Does this help?
>

I'd say this is an excellenct question. It is true that the NPOV
nature of Wikipedia means that our content will sometimes offend
people. That seems inevitable.

But I am dismayed by the complete lack of social sensitivity that I
often see displayed in the course of defending the inclusion of
content that may be offensive to some.

If your cultural background is different from that of others -- even
to the point where you believe their culture to be stupid, or
backwards, or disfunctional -- that does not make it right for you to
be openly mocking or dismissive or disrespectful. Cultural differnces
are a reality in this world, and we're working on a multi-lingual and
multi-cultural project here.

I suspect that if someone posted to this list being scornful or
mocking of, say, Muslim culture, they would get slapped down hard, and
likely be banned from the list if they persisted. Is my suspicion
wrong?

Yet we're very tolerant of this sort of culture bashing when it comes
to conservative Christian culture. You don't have to agree with
someone's culture to respect that culture and members of it. Let's all
try to show a little more respect for each other.

--Rich Holton

[[W:en:User:Rholton]]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> Sorry to Kevin and everyone else who got "offended" by this image. But
> I really don't think Wikipedia should cater your very special needs.

Badly phrased. What I should have written was "Wikipedia should not
cater to your very special needs as long as those needs interfere with
many others need of viewing these images."

--
mvh Bj?rn


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
Well Sabine, we can both, can't we? Wikibooks leaves the space for things
like these on the one hand; on the other hand, the existance of a Simple
English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.

Wouter

>From: Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia
>Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:04:54 +0200
>
>Hi,
>
>wouldn't be Wikijunior a good project for this?
>http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior
>
>Just take up specific topics, write on it for kids and group it to books,
>link it to the normal wikipedia and the wikipedia to wikibooks and you have
>it connected and kids can read easy stuff.
>
>Ciao, Sabine
>--
>Sabine Cretella
>s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
>skype: sabinecretella
>
>
>pentiumforever at email.de wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
>>
>>If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much
>>of the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills
>>in the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and
>>teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that the
>>Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I
>>would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
>>
>>What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the
>>roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
>>
>>pentiumforever
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
Speel online games via MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 15.04.05 18:04:26:
>
>
> >I have understand the term of the simpel English Wikipedia so that they
> >want to create a Wikipedia with a easy English (language), I think this is
> >very good for non English people with a not so good English. My term is it
> >to create a Wikipedia that use a easy German and discribe it easy that mean
> >that there should be no words, beside it is impossibel, they are not for
> >the whole people (particularly kids and teenagers) not easy understand. And
> >if we must use one of this words we should discribe it. It should be of a
> >layer for kids between 10 to 16!
> >
> >The discribtion is not good but I hope ii is enough for the moment!
> >
> >pentiumforever
>
> One of the Simple English Wikipedia's main target groups /are/ children,
> pentiumforever. Check it out at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_English_language . Children speakers of
> English face exactly the same problem as you discribe. So your proposal is
> indeed very analogous to the existing Simple English wikipedia. By the way,
> you should post your proposal on
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages. I suggest the
> domain einfach.wikipedia.org.
>
> Wouter
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Direct antwoord op je vragen: gebruik MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

That was a point that I have no known! Thanks for the information!
I don't know much about the Wikipeadia away from the German is there a place where is it easy to ask people if they wanna help or is the German Wikipedia the right place?


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

body:
This should do the trick:

$ cvs diff -u Linker.php
Index: Linker.php
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/Linker.php,v
retrieving revision 1.22
diff -u -r1.22 Linker.php
--- Linker.php  12 Apr 2005 00:37:45 -0000      1.22
+++ Linker.php  15 Apr 2005 18:14:54 -0000
@@ -690,7 +690,7 @@
                $style = $this->getExternalLinkAttributes( $url,
$text, 'external ' . $linktype );
                global $wgNoFollowLinks;
                if( $wgNoFollowLinks ) {
-                       $style .= ' rel="nofollow"';
+                       $style .= ' rel="nofollow" target="_blank"';
                }
                $url = htmlspecialchars( $url );
                if( $escape )


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
>
>That was a point that I have no known! Thanks for the information!
>I don't know much about the Wikipeadia away from the German is there a
>place where is it easy to ask people if they wanna help or is the German
>Wikipedia the right place?
>
You can ask anything here, though most people are already firmly into
Wikipedia when they joing the list. But you can try
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Forum as well, which has the
advantage that you're answered in your native tongue.

_________________________________________________________________
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http://messenger.msn.nl/


subject: Error: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
Hi Sabine,

I am afraid I sent a message, meant for the mailing list, just to you, by
mistake. Could you forward it?

Thanks in advance!

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
Spreek vrienden en familie met MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Viajero said:
>
> Now, the same individual using the account JailWardChurchillNow just
> has  started filling the talk page with his vitriol. See:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ward_Churchill&action=history

Oh, I just blocked this chap because of his inflammatory username.  I
looked at what he was doing and it did seem somewhat POV but that isn't
unusual for newcomers who tend to treat this place as a forum at the
start. I didn't look for sock puppetry.

>
> Is there any precedent for having a dev lookup his/her IP number and
> have it blocked for say 72 hours? If not, it is going to be another
> very  long night...
>

If he's using the same IP for the socks, I think it will be autoblocked
for 24 hours.