body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Axel schrieb:
> I get this for a longer text:
> <?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8' ?>
>
ERROR!

>
> Is this a timeout or does the parser stop on unbalanced tags?

I just noticed I didn't enter any code for doing the table row element
"|--" ;-)

It was only a few lines and is online now; maybe it choked on that. The
error message is a "last resort" of the parser, telling me I didn't
catch all cases.

Please try again; if the error keeps coming, please let me know which
text you used, so I can debug.

Disclaimer: The ";" markup and the table caption are not done yet.

Magnus
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list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Axel

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wiki-to-XML pseudo-parser in PHP

body:
On Apr 7, 2005 10:15 PM, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> Please try again; if the error keeps coming, please let me know which
> text you used, so I can debug.
Same problem again.
You can use this old text:
http://www.bliki.info/test.txt

--
Axel Kramer
http://www.phpeclipse.de - PHP Eclipse Plugin
http://www.plog4u.org - Wikipedia Eclipse Plugin


list: wikien-l

from_name: John Bradley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
Mine is Irate,

I have now been blocked by Geni for alleged diruption. This consists of me
having my opinion about cats and someone else having there. I have been
falsley reported by [[Boothy443 | comhr? 21:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)]] for
3RR.

Seems to me yet again it is the admins exercising there power. But
snowspinner has already admited that they broke the rules but no block.

Subject:        	RE: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner
Date sent:      	Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:26:19 -0700
From:           	"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com>
To:             	"John Bradley" <john at ontobus.co.uk>

> What's your user name at Wikipedia?
>
> Mine is "User:Ed Poor"
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Bradley [mailto:john at ontobus.co.uk]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 5:00 PM
> > To: English Wikipedia
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner
> >
> >
> > I have been blocked by user snowspinner for putting an RFC in
> > gainst him,
> > he has also tried to get them all deleted. This user should
> > be blocked
> > permantly.
> > 		Yours
> >
> > 		John Bradley
> >
> > Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
> > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
> Mine is Irate,
>
> I have now been blocked by Geni for alleged diruption. This consists of me
> having my opinion about cats and someone else having there. I have been
> falsley reported by [[Boothy443 | comhr? 21:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)]] for
> 3RR.
>
> Seems to me yet again it is the admins exercising there power. But
> snowspinner has already admited that they broke the rules but no block.

Well technicaly snowspinner was blocked briefly. I notice your actions
on the user page of [[User:82.35.37.118]] were excluded from your
summery. Sufice to say I think you are desrupting wikipedia and that
is why I have blocked you.

--
geni


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Axel schrieb:
> On Apr 7, 2005 10:15 PM, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>Please try again; if the error keeps coming, please let me know which
>>text you used, so I can debug.
>
> Same problem again.
> You can use this old text:
> http://www.bliki.info/test.txt
>

Fixed. There was a heading like "== stuff == " (note the final space),
which, strictly speaking, is broken (yes, I'll make it recognize it
anyway soon).

So the parser tried to fall back to rendering it as a "normal" line (not
as a heading), which it couldn't do because the line starts with a "=",
which indicates a header line.

I've added a fallback to force it to render as normal text now. For what
it's worth, I've just successfully converted [[de:Mainz]], >140KB of
text. Took 52 seconds but, well...

Magnus
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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JuMovjGJQBZz7+xfzOCaxJU=
=G9uZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: FxParlant

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wiki-to-XML pseudo-parser in PHP

body:
Thanks a lot for this tool, I'm not sure I've got a use for it yet
(don't count on me for any pdf template), but I'm sure any xml fan will
like it.

Do you mind if I put a link toward your site... do you intend to change
place/adress for it ?

Fran?ois

Magnus Manske wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Here it is! The millionth pseudo-parser I wrote for wiki(p|m)edia! :-)
>
> Written as a single class, it takes a MediaWiki-style markuped (is that
> a word?) source and generates the XML flavor Timwi and I have been using
> in all our unfinished projects! ;-)
>
> Try it out at
>
> http://www.magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/wiki2xml.php
>
> Just paste a wiki source text in, and get the XML. As you will notice,
> it wasn't written for speed.
>
> It is not a "real" parser, but the structure is simlar to what a parser
> generator would make, except taking a few shortcuts here and there.
>
> This could be the heart of a *real* export function. Just write a
> XML-to-PDF generator (and replace the templates, and get rid of the
> categories and language links) and you're done! :-)
>
> Magnus
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFCVYLOCZKBJbEFcz0RAntrAJ0cbZTbRf5IIjyK2ltgv2oNZ28+cgCfWTjn
> tl8TiwYzjBFGHpHUnpkVJXQ=
> =1Y9V
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Reliable, selectable content

body:
Rick wrote:

>--- Neil Harris <neil at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I have a feeling that the ICRA vocabulary may be
>>copyrighted by ICRA, so
>>we would not be able to use it without their
>>permission. However, if a
>>similar label scheme were to be adopted, it must be
>>copyright free,
>>non-subjective, and capable of being used in an NPOV
>>manner without
>>endless labelling and re-labelling revert wars.
>>Even the ICRA labels
>>(which represent a good attempt at a reasoned
>>scheme) still have some
>>subjective aspects to them.
>>
>>-- Neil
>>
>>
>
>How can anything labeled "offensive" be NPOV?  We have
>seen in the recent war that many, many people
>considered the autofellatio image offensive, while
>many, many others considered it non-offensive.
>
>RickK
>
>
>
You missed the point of my comments; "offensive" is clearly a subjective
judgement. Regarding the image in question, literal descriptions such as
"nude photograph", "photograph of human genitalia" (and similar) are
less subjective, and more likely to be useful. Just to repeat, for
clarity: I'm _against_ using the ICRA tags, since they seem to be both
still somewhat subjective (and hence incompatible with NPOV), as well as
in my opinion almost certainly (IANAL, TINLA) legally incompatible with
an open-access, GFDL-licensed wiki.

-- Neil


from_name: Matt R

subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
--- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> Mine is Irate,
>
> I have now been blocked by Geni for alleged diruption. This consists of me
> having my opinion about cats and someone else having there. I have been
> falsley reported by [[Boothy443 | comhr? 21:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)]] for
> 3RR.
>
> Seems to me yet again it is the admins exercising there power. But
> snowspinner has already admited that they broke the rules but no block.

Well, the ArbCom have now issued a temporary injunction to limit you to editing
your User pages and your Arbitration case. It seems that these admins were
responding to something in your behaviour that needed curbing.

Matt

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Yahoo, Jimbo and other things

body:
I may have not explained myself well enough in my previous mail.

Sorry, I will go again on a rant (beware !)

First, I would like to thank Jimbo for the servers and the deal with Yahoo. It is extremely good for us. This will be extremely helpful from a technical perspectice, will improve access for all of us (directly or indirectly), and politically speaking, I think the fact of setting them in Asia is important. This deal, however, respect a couple of principles we think are important, and a couple of principles the community considers important. We stay independent (and the more partners we have, the more independent we stay), we stay out of advertisement, we foster collaboration between organisations across the world. In short, we do not stay ?inside wikipedia?, but we invite the world to join the concept. We expand it. This is also why it is good that we set such collaborations.

Jimbo is good at negociating such deals, and honestly, we should be extremely thankful of this. Why do I mention it ? Well, simply because some leaders do not scale. Some guys started a little internet thing during the .com boom, and finally found themselves in front of celebrity, commercial deals to set, political power and so on? and were just unable to handle it. Jimbo does and does it very well. Our leader could have been great to start Wikipedia, but basically useless once the project is successful. This is not our case, and Jimbo?s ability to handle all this so successfully is one of the reason of Wikimedia projects success. Right ?

Now, there is a third point. And this is why I am thankful Jimbo mentionned it. I did not make a lot, but?how it happened is important I think. This is why I really want wikipedians to realise how the shortcuts thing happened.

Three years ago, when I joined wikipedia, I also met some editors who were editing MeatBallWiki. I followed links there, and loved the place. However, I could never really participate over there as I was under a pseudonyme then, and they had a policy of using RealName. Still, I met Christophe Ducamp over there and he invited me last year to do a presentation of Wikipedia in Lyon. At that time, I discovered Christophe website, CraoWiki (another wiki, entirely french). I very rarely go there (no time?). Still, last summer, when I was thinking of starting a blog, I was looking for free software in french? and thought of going to Crao to ask for suggestions. Over there, I met St?phane Gigandet, who is the author of a french blog software, Joueb (see Joueb.com) (if my memory is not failing?). He proposed to offer it to me, which I actually refused as it is non free software (eheh). I finally decided for WordPress, which was probably not a good idea, as I do not understand how to
 customized it? Most of my attempts were disasters. This is the reason why I have no trackback on my blog? :-)

Anyway, what I absolutely did not know at that time is that St?phane was also working for Yahoo? so he recontacted me some months later when he and others at Yahoo had an idea and wanted to check if possible. I mostly explained to them what was possible and what was not, and simply encouraged them.

What I want to insist on ?. is simply that this happened not because of a top-down decision. It was a group of yahoo people, who contacted a wikipedian they knew due to a totally unrelated discussion. This was not a boss deciding something and contacting another boss. It could have been anyone. All what was needed were 1) people 2) idea and 3) relation between people.

And this is actually very important. Networks, bridges between communities is very helpful and people knowing they can have ideas and it can happen is very important. The fact anyone has power to do things is what I like best in Wikipedia :-)

Again, thank you for being yourself Jimbo :)

and thank you for your help in the last days (no, this is not only syrop, this is really serious guys...)

ant

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Make Yahoo! your home page


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Classified information in Wikipedia

body:
Bryan Derksen wrote:

> Fastfission wrote:
>
>> Wikipedia is a forum where anybody could contribute information, even
>> anonymously. Let's say I was an employee at Vandenberg Air Force Base
>> (my errors on a number of missile related pages ought to prove that I
>> am not!) who decides that US nuclear secrecy is preventing adequate
>> public debate on current US nuclear policies. I anonymously log in and
>> upload a picture of a working W-88 warhead to the page on [[MIRV]]. Ha
>> ha, says I, I have secretly subverted secrecy.
>>
>
> You've also posted a classified image in a forum where your IP address
> is logged and widely available. You'd have to first find a proxy to do
> this through, and we block proxies so I don't know how easy that would
> be. You'd also be posting it on a single centralized server where it
> could be removed at any time by admins. Why not just post it to
> Usenet, a much less easily undone means of distribution?
>
> Anyhoo, let's say you did it anyway, and now there's this photo that
> some anon uploaded. Someone else who knows this subject matter comes
> along and sees it and says "interesting, I've never seen that before.
> Hey, anon, where did you find this?" What can the anon possibly say in
> response that wouldn't violate either the "no original research"
> policy or our verifiability requirements? If this design is classified
> and there have been no leaks of it before, there's no way to determine
> whether this is for real or if it's just some movie prop that a guy
> built in his garage and took photos of. So it doesn't belong in
> Wikipedia, and it will probably wind up being removed by Wikipedia's
> existing processes.
>
> How would having a policy specifically against classified information
> speed this up in any way? You'd still need to show that it _was_
> classified, which amounts to the same sort of effort it would take to
> attempt to verify the photo (possibly moreso, since failing to verify
> it is enough to qualify it for removal whereas failing to determine if
> it's classified would leave the issue up in the air). And if we did
> have such a policy, and if I was an Evil Foreign Agent who for some
> reason thought Wikipedia was a good source of such information, I'd
> simply watchlist Votes for Classified Information Removal and copy
> everything as it came up for discussion there. Wikipedia would be
> doing half my work for me.

Images of classified information can't be public domain - if they were,
they can't be classified. They can't be
{{copyrightedusefwithpermission}} (or whatever it is) since the image
has been *stolen* by the uploader, and is breaking the law. Not GFDL or
CC either; possibly could be {{PDUSGovernment}} (or whatever it is,
depending on where it came from), but in summary: Images of classified
material would be removed by the Image Sleuthing team, because they lack
source info.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] Progress update on the music project

body:
I just thought I'd give an update on the sound list
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sound/list). Since
I last posted here about it, there have been some very interesting
developments.

When I posted about 6 weeks ago with a link to that list. I'll bet most
of you who clicked on the link got a time-out error.
Why? Because, it turns out, Mediawiki was building media: links HORRIBLY
ineffeciently. If you had a page with 10
linked ogg files, the squid would download all 10 files before serving
up the page; if you had a page with 200,
the squid would time out before downloading all of them. Understandably,
this error went unnoticed until we had 200
oggs to put on a single page ;) Tim Starling fixed this, and all pages
with media: links now load faster because of it.

Dysprosia and I created a sleak looking set of templates for putting
sound files on a page. You can see the result on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart
as well as a variety of other pages. I could also use some help linking
to the songs from articles. Right now, most of the
songs on the list linked to only from their composer's article, if at
all. (And while I'm giving credit, Fennec gave me
a shell account on his computer, which, with it's very fast internet
connection, has been indispensable. When Eloquence
changed the upload form (breaking the bash script I was using to
upload), Avar rewrote it so that it works again.)

One thing I've noticed is that none of the sister projects or other
language Wikipedias seem to have noticed
the songs. I'd appreciate it if you guys could put in a good word at the
other wikis and projects about them.

Now to brag a little. The list passed 300 songs tonight, and probably
well over a gigabyte of music by now :)

--Mark (Raul654)


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki caching tools

body:
Nicolay A Vasiliev wrote:
> Hello there!
>
> I read in WikiMedia FAQ there is only one caching tool for MediaWiki? Is
> it possible to store cached (PHP compiled pages) on the server in cache
> files?

There are several distinct caching layers.

1. Parser cache

The parser cache stores the rendered HTML of wiki pages (just the wiki
pages, not the user interface around them). Since some user options
affect content, separate cached verisions may coexist for different sets
of selected options.

Parser cache data is stored in memcached (if using it) or the
objectcache table (by default) and autotically expires after a while.
The parser cache is enabled by default on 1.4; on 1.3 it was optional
and required memcached.

2. File cache

Optionally, the wiki can store the complete HTML output of basic page
views for people who haven't logged in. This is optional, and off by
default.

See DefaultSettings.php for the configuration; note that you *must* set
the ip in header option listed next to it off also, or it won't save
cached pages.

The file cache hasn't been kept up well since Wikipedia moved to Squid,
but as far as I know it still works.

3. Squid reverse proxy

For a high-traffic site it can be useful to have an additional caching
layer outside of PHP entirely. An appropriately configured Squid proxy
can be used to keep many not-logged-in hits from even having to touch
the web server. For this you'll want to engage the squid support and
make sure that purges work correctly. See DefaultSettings.php for all
configurable options.

Additionally, anybody running their own MediaWiki server should be sure
to install a PHP opcode cache tool. Normally PHP recompiles the source
code on every page view, which takes up a lot of the runtime. Turck
MMCache or its descendent EAcclerator are free software and do a good
job (we use Turck MMCache on the Wikimedia servers).

I should also note that web clients will cache pages, and MediaWiki
tries to send appropriate headers to let the client cache while
requiring that it check for updates. (A request and 304 Not Modified
response is less expensive than an entire re-rendering and re-sending of
a page.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] ENotif and EAuthent for version REL1_4 (1.4.1) --
	coming soon

body:
For your information:
I fully succeeded in porting ENotif and EAuthent from the CVS HEAD
version back to REL1_4 (1.4.1).

All functions **do** already work, but I decided to invest more time for
tests and perhaps further optimizations. If everything works out fine, I
can hold my promised release date 09-APR-2005.

It will also be the first version supplying users with direct
"difference between current and last-visited-revision" links (for
watched pages on recent-changes view, see [3]). The feature can also be
used by those who opted to not receive email notifications (ENotifs).

It also allows EAuthent [2], so that all mail functions except "mail me
a temporary password, because I forgot it" only work after the user has
authenticated the entered email address. The mechanism is explained in [2].

Proper config/installation and updaters code and plenty of
sysop-settings and user options are supplied, see screenshots [4].

Developers, who are interested, are asked to add their email addresses
to the CC list of the mentioned bugzillas.
Tom

[1] http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454 E-mail
notification (EN) for page changes of watch-listed pages and/or of
user_talk page
[2] http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=866 Email
authentication (EA) by mailing a temporary one-time password
[3] http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=536 For pages on
watchlist save last seen version number
[4] http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enotif


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikistats for Wiktionary

body:
Yann:

> I don't understand why there are important differences for the numbers of
> articles for some Wiktionaries with the manual count (from
> Special:Statistics) .....

> There are also curious figures for database size
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/TablesDatabaseSize.htm

I already anwered Yann a few days ago privately but didn't realize the
question had been posted here, so here is the answer.

Erik Zachte

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

== 1 ==

For database size I checked sk:

The dump is full of spam!, which has been reverted since, see for example
http://sk.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Wiki&oldid=1725

== 2 ==

For article counts I checked Serbian dump.
There has clearly been a massive cleanup (either delete or move) since last
dump.

Here is part of the namespace 0 data that I can make sense of:
One article per line, format title|content

Sample1: There are numerous articles (see unicode gibberish in sample 1)
that only contain one or two category tags, no data.

Sample2: These data have very probably been deleted or moved.

So expect a much lower article count after next run.

Appendix: samples from Serbian dump

Sample1:

??????????|[[Category:???????????? ?????????? ??????]]
??????????|[[Category:???????????? ?????????? ??????]]
??????????|[[Category:???????????? ?????????? ??????]]
??????????|[[Category:???????????? ?????????? ??????]]
????????????????????|[[Category:???????????? ?????????? ??????]]
????????????|[[Category:???????????? ?????????? ??????]]
????????????|[[Category:???????????? ???????????? ??????]]\n\n[[Category:??
????????????]]
????????????|[[Category:???????????? ???????????? ??????]]\n\n[[Category:??
????????????]]
????????????|[[Category:???????????? ???????????? ??????]]\n\n[[Category:??
????????????]]

Sample2:

Accesskey-addsection|+
Accesskey-anontalk|n
Accesskey-anonuserpage|.
Accesskey-article|a
Accesskey-contributions|<accesskey-contributions>
Accesskey-currentevents|<accesskey-currentevents>
Accesskey-delete|d
Accesskey-edit|e
Accesskey-emailuser|<accesskey-emailuser>
Accesskey-help|<accesskey-help>
Accesskey-history|h
Accesskey-login|o
Accesskey-logout|o
Accesskey-mainpage|z
Accesskey-move|m
Accesskey-mycontris|y
Accesskey-mytalk|n
Accesskey-portal|<accesskey-portal>
Accesskey-preferences|<accesskey-preferences>
Accesskey-protect|=
Accesskey-randompage|x
Accesskey-recentchanges|r
Accesskey-recentchangeslinked|c
Accesskey-sitesupport|<accesskey-sitesupport>
Accesskey-specialpage|<accesskey-specialpage>
Accesskey-specialpages|q
Accesskey-talk|t
Accesskey-undelete|d
Accesskey-unwatch|w
Accesskey-upload|u
Accesskey-userpage|.
Accesskey-viewsource|e
Accesskey-watch|w
Accesskey-watchlist|l
Accesskey-whatlinkshere|b
Tooltip-addsection|Add a comment to this page. [alt-+]
Tooltip-anontalk|Discussion about edits from this ip address [alt-n]
Tooltip-anonuserpage|The user page for the ip you#*$@re editing as [alt-.]
Tooltip-article|View the content page [alt-a]
Tooltip-atom|Atom feed for this page
Tooltip-contributions|View the list of contributions of this user
Tooltip-currentevents|Find background information on current events
Tooltip-delete|Delete this page [alt-d]
Tooltip-edit|You can edit this page. Please use the preview button before
saving. [alt-e]
Tooltip-emailuser|Send a mail to this user
Tooltip-help|The place to find out.
Tooltip-history|Past versions of this page, [alt-h]
Tooltip-login|You are encouraged to log in, it is not mandatory however.
[alt-o]
Tooltip-logout|Log out [alt-o]
Tooltip-mainpage|Visit the Main Page [alt-z]
Tooltip-move|Move this page [alt-m]
Tooltip-mycontris|List of my contributions [alt-y]
Tooltip-mytalk|My talk page [alt-n]
Tooltip-nomove|You don#*$@t have the permissions to move this page
Tooltip-portal|About the project, what you can do, where to find things
Tooltip-preferences|My preferences
Tooltip-protect|Protect this page [alt-=]
Tooltip-randompage|Load a random page [alt-x]
Tooltip-recentchanges|The list of recent changes in the wiki. [alt-r]
Tooltip-recentchangeslinked|Recent changes in pages linking to this page
[alt-c]
Tooltip-rss|RSS feed for this page
Tooltip-sitesupport|Support Wiktionary
Tooltip-specialpage|This is a special page, you can#*$@t edit the page
itself.
Tooltip-specialpages|List of all special pages [alt-q]
Tooltip-talk|Discussion about the content page [alt-t]
Tooltip-undelete|Restore the $1 edits done to this page before it was
deleted [alt-d]
Tooltip-unwatch|Remove this page from your watchlist [alt-w]
Tooltip-upload|Upload images or media files [alt-u]
Tooltip-userpage|My user page [alt-.]
Tooltip-viewsource|This page is protected. You can view its source. [alt-e]
Tooltip-watch|Add this page to your watchlist [alt-w]
Tooltip-watchlist|The list of pages you#*$@re monitoring for changes.
[alt-l]
Tooltip-whatlinkshere|List of all wiki pages that link here [alt-b]


from_name: Tom Haws

body:
John Fader wrote:

>a generic "Wikipedia 1.0" seems to me to be a lot
>of work to produce a jack-of-all-trades product that meets no-one's
>needs terribly well.
>
I agree with this.  And with the sentiment of not wanting to participate
in selecting for a paper encyclopedia.

I think the subject of this thread is a pretty good scope for all we
should be worrying about.

1.  Reliable:  We should be finding a way to start identifying
trusted/stable/best versions of articles to display to those who ask to
please not see the bleeding edge.

2.  Selectable: We should be developing a vocabulary/method for
enhancing selectability of our content.

3.  Content:  Lets encourage adding, not subtracting content.

Tom


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikimedia announces Yahoo support

body:
I thank you to say this Jimbo, though I think I did not make directly a
lot. St?phane and Caroline did a lot.

However, I might say I find very unfair that half of the people who
worked on a deal are cited.

I think it would have been fair (in particular since the implication of
Yahoo France was not mentionned in the english press release) that
St?phane Gigandet post on Yahoo blog be mentionned in the site
announcement made on the english wikipedia.

This is not the case.

I think it is unfortunate we are selective in the information we give.

Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>>Thank you to St?phane Gigandet from Yahoo! International Search
>>Engineering and to Caroline Constantin from Yahoo! Search France (as
>>well as to for  Christophe Ducamp from CraoWiki) for making this possible.
>
>
> Anthere is too modeset to thank herself of course so I will.  She is
> the person responsible for these good things happening with the
> Shortcuts.  Her work in talking to the Yahoo.fr people about it caused
> it to spread throughout Yahoo as a concept and it will be in many many
> other languages soon as a result.
>
> --Jimbo


from_name: Kevin Rector

body:
>Whatever happens, it'll be a horrible shitfight trying to cut the
majestic
>sprawl of en: Wikipedia down to a single concise volume. Say, fifty
>thousand articles. WHICH FIFTY THOUSAND?

>1. Whole areas will be cut out.
>2. Areas we're particularly good in will get cut *way* back.
>3. Endless, fractious and bloody wars over what gets in and what
doesn't.

>Is there a way around this which doesn't require someone making the
>decision and choosing between pissing off half the community and
pissing
>off half the community?

There is a very easy way around this, just don't do it. I won't be
participating in a paper Wikipedia in any way whatsoever.

-Kevin Rector


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Request for short code sniplet review: Auto-Login --
 Is SetupSession() correctly used ?

body:
I need to ask the experts of Login, Session, cookie and authentication
handling urgently for a general peer review of a very short code part.
The code works well, but I wish to have some comments of you experts.

http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1360 (incl. a flowchart)
The next is sniplet from
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/attachment.cgi?id=400&action=view

if loadfromsession() does not find credentials to login in via the
session, it returns by calling Auth:initUser()

Auth::initUser() does basically
         ....
        (compose a new user account entry based on authentication data)
        .....
        $user->saveSettings();
        $user->spreadBlock();
        if( !isset( $_COOKIE[ini_get('session.name')] )  )
$user->SetupSession();
        $user->setCookies();
        return $user;

My question:
=========
is the sequence of steps, especially the position of the SetupSession()
correct ?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your arbcomm commitee

body:
John,

Tit for tat is the way of misery.  I suggest you "rise above the foibles
of others and do your best for yourself."  You will be very glad you did.

Tom Haws


from_name: Domas Mituzas

subject: [Wikitech-l] dumps

body:
Hey,

> Are there any ideas for some kind of incremental dump?
> Or are bandwith and disk storage no problem compared to the
> more complex implementation of incremental dumps?
> And are there any statistics about how much bandwidth is
> used by downloads and database dumps (i.e. not normal visitor traffic)?

Incremental dumps have been always constant rave by new developers.
Maybe it would be not so sophisticated to provide streams of changed articles,
but doing proper sync yet is possible only by replicating SQL commands.

We do have currently incremental dumps (eh, MySQL binlogs), but those,
unlike public dump service, contain internal tables (with all sensitive information).
Providing those into public we either would have to set yet another mysql slave,
with limited replication, or somehow filter binlogs, which is PITA as well.

There's yet another issue, with 1.5 major database redesign will happen,
which will force us to provide non-SQL dumps. We're even not sure if
revision texts will be kept in MySQL in future.

Cheers,
Domas


subject: [Wikitech-l] dumps

body:
Hey,
> Will you put there dumps of wikisource and wikispecies?
They're already there. http://dumps.wikimedia.org/#special

Domas


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
> This is User:Irate, who was blocked at the start of a spate
> of severely disruptive editing. The Arbitration Committee
> case was quickly opened, and a temporary injunction applied
> (in record time), banning him from editing any pages other
> than his user pages or his arbitration case pages.

That was the start of the spate
Of disruption by user Irate.
With prompt arbitration,
To end aggravation,
We hope all this fuss to abate.

Uncle Ed


from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Who is Ashlee Simpson?"

body:
(I just used that example to get your attention).

In case you didn't see the article in Slashdot... or find out about it in some
other way... If you Google on a phrase that begins "who is," then a name, and
then a question mark, Google will give _an answer and a reference_ as its
first result. In my experiments, if it does this, it currently _always_ uses
Wikipedia as the reference.

"Who is Ashlee Simpson?" yields

Property: ... a U.S. singer, actress and the younger sister of singer Jessica
Simpson.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashlee_Simpson

"Who is Herbert Spencer? yields

Herbert Spencer
Property: ... an English philosopher.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Spencer

Amusingly, "Who is Beethoven?" yields

Johann Van Beethoven
Property: ... was Ludwig van Beethoven's father.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_van_Beethoven


from_name: Jim Higson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Diagram of wikitext syntax

body:
Might be of interest. Nothing like a full syntax diagram, more a
categorisation I drew to help me remember what can contain what when I'm
writing my parser (or should that be pseudo-parser...).

http://users.aber.ac.uk/jqh1/wiki.png

It's also quite specialised to my wiki XML representation.


from_name: David Gerard

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: April 1st 2006, IRC, the mailing list,
	and the Cabal

references:
<424E16A3.2010205@gmail.com> <d2mgsf$hui$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<d33tc2$fka$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi (timwi at gmx.net) [050408 04:20]:
> Tim Starling wrote:

> >Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
> >take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
> >it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of anonymous
> >users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the next day.

> This has got to be the best idea on how to deal with 1st April. Normally
> I am quite opposed to downtime, but this time I think we have a pretty
> good excuse.
> I can already see the message going something like:
> 	On 1st April, 2004 and 2005, we experienced significant troubles
> 	due to attempted April Fool's jokes which turned into
> 	disagreements and eventually edit wars. As a counter-measure,
> 	All Wikimedia projects are read-only from 30th March 12:00 to
> 	2nd April 12:00. We are pleased to use this opportunity to apply
> 	considerable improvements to our software architecture.
> We have 1 year to agree on the exact wording of the message and to
> translate it into the 70-something languages we have wikis in. Depending
> on when you start planning the actual improvements, you have something
> between 1 year and 48 hours for them. :-)

Don't explain why. Just say:

       All Wikimedia projects are read-only from 30th March 12:00 to
       2nd April 12:00. We are pleased to use this opportunity to apply
       considerable improvements to our software architecture.

That'll do the job nicely ;-)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
John Bradley (john at ontobus.co.uk) [050408 07:00]:

> I have been blocked by user snowspinner for putting an RFC in gainst him,
> he has also tried to get them all deleted. This user should be blocked
> permantly.

This is User:Irate, who was blocked at the start of a spate of severely
disruptive editing. The Arbitration Committee case was quickly opened, and
a temporary injunction applied (in record time), banning him from editing
any pages other than his user pages or his arbitration case pages. See
[[WP:AN/I]] for discussion of the original block. Snowspinner says there he
wouldn't do it this way again and apologises, but I think his action was
entirely defensible in good faith.

- d.


body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
>> Same problem again.
>> You can use this old text:
>> http://www.bliki.info/test.txt
>>
>
> Fixed. There was a heading like "== stuff == " (note the final space),
> which, strictly speaking, is broken (yes, I'll make it recognize it
> anyway soon).
>
> So the parser tried to fall back to rendering it as a "normal" line (not
> as a heading), which it couldn't do because the line starts with a "=",
> which indicates a header line.
>
> I've added a fallback to force it to render as normal text now. For what
> it's worth, I've just successfully converted [[de:Mainz]], >140KB of
> text. Took 52 seconds but, well...

A suggestion on this kind of error:

I think the best behaviour is to try to work out what the user intended, but
not correct it in the parser, because without formal definition and when a
parser is used as the reference of the language anything it doesn't mark as
an error becomes valid syntax.

In my parser I output errors like this:

        This is <b>not well formed

        <paragraph lineno="0" charno="0">
                This is
                <wikiwyg:syntax-error type="close missing">
                        <html:b/>
                </wikiwyg:syntax-error>
                not well formed
        </paragraph>

and:

        There is no such character entity as &wumpus;
        <paragraph lineno="0" charno="0">
                There is no such character entity as
                <syntax-error type="unknown entity" name="wumpus">
                        <char-ref name="wumpus"/>
                </syntax-error>
        </paragraph>

So I detect what the user was trying to do, but not correct them. Correction
is done in a layer between parser and presenter.

Firstly, this provides a separation of interests that if done right can make
the parser much simpler, but it also allows a user to choose to have syntax
errors not corrected and shown on the page so that imperfect articles can
very easily be seen and fixed. See:

        http://users.aber.ac.uk/jqh1/err_bold.png
        http://users.aber.ac.uk/jqh1/err_wumpus.png

Jim

--
visit my new wiki engine - http://81.5.150.113/wysi


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia is an encyclopedia

body:
Stephen Forrest wrote:

>Wikipedia is different from Amazon and ebay in that it is possible to
>download its entire content in a single compressed bundle (or a small
>set of these, one for each wiki).  Presumably some way can be found to
>section off the bandwidth consumed by downloading these bundles from
>the bandwidth used for reading and editing the online version (i.e.
>have a host of mirrors only for these downloads).
>
>
I've been wondering if perhaps setting up a bit torrent tracker for
Wikipedia database downloads might be a good idea. I don't know how many
people download those things; if it's only a couple of downloads a week
it might not be worthwhile, but if there are lots of downloads a day
then it could save the project a lot of bandwidth.


body:
Richard Holton (richholton at gmail.com) [050408 09:15]:

> This and other similar conversations leads me to be a bit pessimistic
> about the printed 1.0 project. I believe that it is a given that 1.0
> cannot contain every article in Wikipedia -- perhaps not even every
> article that meets some necessarily subjective criteria for quality.
> There's just too much to print in a single volume, and I don't foresee
> our first non-topical print edition being a multi-volume work.
> How will the community go about deciding what should be in 1.0? If
> Autofellatio meets some subjective criteria for quality, will it be
> included? What about all of the pages of Pokemon characters? The
> articles about every small town in the state of Michigan (to pick a
> state name at random)?
> Will there not need to be some sense of "appropriateness" used to
> determine the actual content? Is [[Autofellatio]] appropriate? How
> about [[Mewtwo]]? [[Shoreham, Michigan]]?
> Anyone care to define an NPOV way to decide this?

I must admit that in my own 1.0 plan, this bit is the second step in
"1. Rate articles. 2. ????? 3. Profit!"

Whatever happens, it'll be a horrible shitfight trying to cut the majestic
sprawl of en: Wikipedia down to a single concise volume. Say, fifty
thousand articles. WHICH FIFTY THOUSAND?

1. Whole areas will be cut out.
2. Areas we're particularly good in will get cut *way* back.
3. Endless, fractious and bloody wars over what gets in and what doesn't.

Is there a way around this which doesn't require someone making the
decision and choosing between pissing off half the community and pissing
off half the community?

- d.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Interest in Samurai Armor-Saint Mary's Hall Copyright
	Permission Request

body:
Dear Mr. Stoll,

You may review the licensing terms for each image by clicking on it.  I
reviewed all the images in the referenced article.  All of them except
the last are asserted to be in the public domain.  The last is a book
cover and is believed to be a fair use.

Our encyclopedia articles are governed by the terms of the GNU Free
Documentation License.

Tom Haws

John C. Stoll wrote:

>Saint Mary's Hall Copyright Permission Request
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai
>
>To Whom It May Concern:
>
>wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>
>250px-Samurai.JPG
>
>To Whom It May Concern:
>
>I am a student in Saint Mary's Hall Middle School creating Web pages for
>a school project. My e-mail address is 10StollC at smhall.org. We are
>currently engaged in a project in which I design a website on the
>samurai. While doing research for this project, I visited your excellent
>site and was very much impressed with what you have done. I am
>interested in gaining permission to "re-publish" the following material
>from you Web site on our school's web site:
>
>
>
>250px-Samurai.JPG-Samurai Armor
>
>Are you the holder of a copyright for this material?
>
>Yes_____        No__X___
>
>If you are not the holder of a copyright, can you identify the owner and
>supply an e-mail address so that I may contact the owner?
>
>
Public Domain.  See image page.

>
>
>If you are the holder of copyright, may we "re-publish" the items,
>including at the bottom of the Web Page a clear notice that we are
>"re-publishing" the item with your permission, with all rights reserved?
>
>_____ I give my permission
>
>_____ I don't give my permission
>
>Please write the words you wish for us to place at the bottom of our
>page describing your copyright restrictions:
>
>_Public domain_______________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Thanks so much for you time and assistance. We appreciate your
>contribution to the development of excellent content on the Web. Please
>send back this whole message with your name and title at the bottom so
>that we can identify the source of permission.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Connor Stoll
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
>


from_name: Chad Perrin

body:
On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 07:57:36PM -0500, Faraaz Damji wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > Don't explain why. Just say:
> >
> >        All Wikimedia projects are read-only from 30th March 12:00 to
> >        2nd April 12:00. We are pleased to use this opportunity to apply
> >        considerable improvements to our software architecture.
> >
> > That'll do the job nicely ;-)
>
>
> heh, I'll bet everyone will think that IS the april fools joke...that is
> until they try and edit a page ;-)
>

Good!  Heh.  That works nicely.

"Never explain.  Your friends do not need it and your enemies will not
believe you anyway."
- Elbert Hubbard

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Who is Ashlee Simpson?"

body:
Violet/Riga stated for the record:

> I personally like "Who is John Smith?"
>
> ~~~~ Violet/Riga

Ayn Rand is refreshingly far down the page for
"Who is John Galt?"

--
  Sean Barrett     | And tomorrow will be like today,
  sean at epoptic.com | only more so. --Isaiah 56:12b


subject: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous [sic] leader.

body:
As I told you already, I do not have private conversations with subjects
of active arbitration cases.  I immediately CC all such messages to the
Arbitration Committee mailing list.  This policy of transparency
overrides standard netiquette and is not subject to debate.

--
  Sean Barrett     | It is a mark of insincerity of purpose to spend
  sean at epoptic.com | one's time in looking for the sacred Emperor
                   | in the low-class tea-shops. --Ernest Bramah

John Bradley stated for the record:

> If I have broken Netequet by posting the msg to the wikipedia mailing list,
> then Jimbo broke it when he posted my mail to the abritration at nohat.net.
>
> and according to Sean Bartlett.
>
> "Any unsolicited e-mail sent to me becomes my property, to be stored,
> copied, or redistributed any way I like"
>
> He's a member of arbcomm. So does your stuff about netiquette mean you
> will be having ago at them?
>
>
>
> From:           	"James D. Forrester" <james at jdforrester.org>
> To:             	"'English Wikipedia'" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous [sic] leader.
> Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:52:19 +0100
> Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>
>>On Friday, April 08, 2005 5:29 PM, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The mail Mr Wales sent to me was copied [snip] to:
>>>arbitration at nohat.net.
>>
>>Yes. The private email that Jimbo sent you was part of a series of emails
>>conducted between yourself and the Committee (which includes Jimbo, as it
>>were). Note that word there - "private". That you didn't respect the
>>convention of standard etiquette, which, extended onto the Internet, becomes
>>"Netiquette", that private email stays private (as with any other form of
>>correspondence) unless permission is granted from the author(s) is ...
>>unfortunate.
>>
>>
>>>It's strange but I get a bounce when I try to copy in my
>>>replies to the mail, not being a member of the list.
>>
>>Indeed. The list is a private list. Gosh, that word again. It is for the
>>private deliberation of that problematic users and situations collectively
>>known as "Arbitration cases".
>>
>>
>>>Just another way in which wikipedia places everyone at the mercy of the
>>>arbcomm.
>>
>>Wikipedia is "at the mercy of" Jimbo. Jimbo has delegated his "mercy", to
>>use your term, to the Arbitration Committee that he convened over 15 months
>>ago, and which he periodically refreshes the membership thereof as guided by
>>the wishes of the community. Significant disciplinary matters in Wikipedia
>>are thus guided by a number of editors who are held in high esteem by the
>>community at large (or, at least, so one hopes).
>>
>>
>>
>>>A bunch of people who cannot even be bothered to make there
>>>reasoning clear.
>>
>>Their reasoning seems quite clear to me. Perhaps I'm standing in some sort
>>of reality distortion bubble, along with the rest of the Committee and
>>Wikipedia community?
>>
>>
>>>The more this goes on, the more obvious it becomes, that the people
>>>running the show aren't here for the data.
>>
>>If you mean, "[..] aren't here for the good of the Project", I sadly have to
>>agree with you - there are indeed some people who have contributed to
>>Wikipedia who do not seem to follow the goals of the project. This is
>>greatly saddening. Indeed, the various forms of dispute resolution, of which
>>Arbitration is oft seen as the most serious (and is very much often the most
>>terminal) form, sometimes see users who are evidently out to disrupt the
>>Project.
>>
>>Those from whom the community judges it receives more trouble than their
>>contributions are worth, however, are another class of user, and a much more
>>common form. They, too, are to be excluded from the Project, because we are
>>all but as cogs in the great machine that is Wikipedia, and not one of us is
>>irreplacable. Cogs who feel that they are often end up being forcibly
>>removed, and, with time, their position is filled by another, and so on it
>>goes.
>>
>>[Snip sig]
>>
>>Yours,
>>--
>>James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]
>>
>>Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
>>IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
> 		Yours
>
> 		John Bradley
>
> Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
  Sean Barrett     | And tomorrow will be like today,
  sean at epoptic.com | only more so. --Isaiah 56:12b


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Indeed, ad hoc cooperations are happening all over the place behind the
scenes. Some more examples where there was no "top down" decision making
process involved:

- GerardM has managed to secure funding (5000 EUR) for the
implementation of Wikidata as part of MediaWiki independently of any
board actions. This project is now moving forward.

- TheWorldForum.org is copying stories from Wikinews after I pointed
them to it. This has allowed us to be indirectly indexed by
news.google.com and has led to Wikinews stories being on the frontpage
there multiple times already.

- Many, many Wikipedians have individually gone out to obtain permission
for photos, images, sounds, or even entire databases. For example, Mark
(Raul654) obtained permission to put a piano performance of Johann
Pachelbel's Canon under the GFDL:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Pachelbel%27s_Canon.ogg
(Very much worth listening to, by the way.)

- I asked SciScoop.com to license their stories under CC-BY-SA for
re-use on Wikinews, and they agreed to do so. I have already submitted
Wikinews stories there, and they were accepted. I achieved the same
result with Steve Aftergood's Secrecy Newsletter on classified information.

I could cite many more examples. And, of course, I could also cite many
examples where such cooperations didn't happen, but people tried to make
them happen -- those are also worth noting, because success can only
come from trying. Perhaps at one point we should compile a global list
of these, so we know who our friends and bridges are.

I absolutely agree with you that one beautiful thing about Wikimedia is
that the principles of maximizing individual freedom are not limited to
the editing of articles. Congratulations for the Yahoo! deal, I hope
that the shortcuts will soon be available in all language editions.

All best,

Erik


from_name: John C. Stoll

body:
Saint Mary's Hall Copyright Permission Request

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai

To Whom It May Concern:

wikien-l at wikipedia.org

250px-Samurai.JPG

To Whom It May Concern:

I am a student in Saint Mary's Hall Middle School creating Web pages for
a school project. My e-mail address is 10StollC at smhall.org. We are
currently engaged in a project in which I design a website on the
samurai. While doing research for this project, I visited your excellent
site and was very much impressed with what you have done. I am
interested in gaining permission to "re-publish" the following material
from you Web site on our school's web site:

250px-Samurai.JPG-Samurai Armor

Are you the holder of a copyright for this material?

Yes_____        No_____

If you are not the holder of a copyright, can you identify the owner and
supply an e-mail address so that I may contact the owner?

If you are the holder of copyright, may we "re-publish" the items,
including at the bottom of the Web Page a clear notice that we are
"re-publishing" the item with your permission, with all rights reserved?

_____ I give my permission

_____ I don't give my permission

Please write the words you wish for us to place at the bottom of our
page describing your copyright restrictions:

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Thanks so much for you time and assistance. We appreciate your
contribution to the development of excellent content on the Web. Please
send back this whole message with your name and title at the bottom so
that we can identify the source of permission.

Sincerely,

Connor Stoll


from_name: John Fader

body:
On Apr 8, 2005 1:13 AM, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:

> Is there a way around this which doesn't require someone making the
> decision and choosing between pissing off half the community and pissing
> off half the community?

One could argue that making this, or any "version" is a distraction
we, the wikipedia community, rightly should devolve to others.

Armed with a suitable tool for managing lists of versions (which,
incidentally, I'd argue shouldn't be part of the database, but another
program and datastore altogether) anyone can come up with an
subcyclopedia (a subset of wikipedia) tailored to their target
audience.  So people can come up with a "world places encyclopedia", a
"basic knowledge encyclopedia", a "southern baptist convention
encyclopedia", whatever. As these groups have a more specific model of
their target audience and the purpose of their subcyclopedia, they can
pick articles that suit that.

So really I'm arguing that Wikipedia should be a supplier only of raw
material, not of finished product.  It will undoubtedly be orbited by
related satellite wikireaders, subcyclopedias, and ambitious
superprojects, but a generic "Wikipedia 1.0" seems to me to be a lot
of work to produce a jack-of-all-trades product that meets no-one's
needs terribly well.
--
John Fader


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
Would someone please facilitate Irate's departure from the mailing list?

Thanks,
Snowspinner

On Apr 8, 2005, at 11:43 AM, John Bradley wrote:

> YOU have been booted from #wikipedia by Snowspinner (Snowspinner)
>
> 		Yours
>
> 		John Bradley
>
> Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Seth Ilys

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Who is Ashlee Simpson?"

body:
On Apr 8, 2005 11:03 AM, Charles Matthews
<charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Fails for 'Who is Jimbo Wales?', in the sense that the top hit isn't WP.
> But interesting to do anyway.

Try: Who is Jimmy Wales?

--
Seth Ilys
   email: seth.ilys at gmail.com
   IM (aol, msn, yahoo): JehanneDaix
   blog: http://somewhereindurham.blogspot.com/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Wiki-to-XML pseudo-parser in PHP

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I have uploaded a new version with bugfixes and major speed
> improvements. It now parses about 20KB of wiki text per second on my
> machine (which is still slower than out current parser, as I am well
> aware).
>
> Jim Higson schrieb:
>> A suggestion on this kind of error:
>>
>> I think the best behaviour is to try to work out what the user intended,
>> but not correct it in the parser, because without formal definition and
>> when a parser is used as the reference of the language anything it
>> doesn't mark as an error becomes valid syntax.

> That is a good idea, but it depends on the user getting direct feedback
> from the parser. But unless I can make mine orders of magnitudes faster,
> it probably won't becom out "live" default parser.

On the subject of speed you might be interested in some of the optimisations
I made to my parser, which made it 3 times as fast. I've uploaded a small
section from my writing here:

http://users.aber.ac.uk/jqh1/optimisations.pdf

Basically, I'm subsetting the language based on some quick-to-run tests and
only using possible grammars at each stage.

> That means for whatever purpose it will be used, the result should look
> like the one from out "official" parser. When you export a nice-looking
> wiki page into (e.g.) PDF, you don't want to lose headings in the
> process. You'd have to look through all of the output carefully (bugs
> might be less visible than missing headings), verifying the parser.

I'm not saying errors shouldn't be corrected, just that they shouldn't be
corrected in the parser. A "parser -> corrector -> PDF maker" archicture
wouldn't loose the headings.

Marking syntax errors visually would just be for the website, and then only
for people who want to see them (so being a janitor is easy!)

> Of course, if this would ever be adopted as the "official machine", it
> would be a different situation altogether.
>
> Magnus
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFCVmEjCZKBJbEFcz0RAtN8AJ0S6OYBV1d9ooLK1EVS1EkLbfvvWACeLiLC
> jVrcr3kQsgMDiLaSRbqZNLs=
> =KBvd
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Nicolay A. Vasiliev

subject: [Wikitech-l] dumps

body:
Hi!

Yes, I already saw, sorry my inattention :).

Domas Mituzas wrote:

>Hey,
>
>
>>Will you put there dumps of wikisource and wikispecies?
>>
>>
>They're already there. http://dumps.wikimedia.org/#special
>
>Domas
>


from_name: Nicolay A Vasiliev

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki caching tools

body:
Hello there!

I read in WikiMedia FAQ there is only one caching tool for MediaWiki? Is
it possible to store cached (PHP compiled pages) on the server in cache
files?

Thank you,
Nicolay


body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Answering myself, I have now a class variable to determine how to handle
> these cases. If it is set to "don't tolerate", it inserts
>
> <error type="heading" reason="trailing blank"/>

This is a bit similar to my output. Given input such as:

==heading text== mess
blah blah

I output:

<heading-line>
        <heading level="2">
                heading text
        </heading>
        <wikiwyg:syntax-error type="extra content">
                mess
        </wikiwyg:syntax-error>
</heading-line>
<paragraph>
        blah blah
</paragraph>

This is designed to try to capture what the user wanted to do. This could be
corrected by appending the content of the syntax-error onto the next
heading, or the presenter could ignore the error or highlight it. Eitherway
the problem is kept pretty local and nothing much is missing from the page.

Trailing space is just a special case in which the syntax-error tag would
contain a text node with just whitespace.

My corrector changes the XML to this:

<heading level="2">
        heading text
</heading>
<paragraph>
        <wikiwyg:syntax-correction>
                blah blah
        </wikiwyg:syntax-correction>
</paragraph>

And then the presenter treats syntax-correction as DOM DocumentFragments.

--
Jim


from_name: Graham Miller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Suppress thumbnail?

body:
Hello all,

I'm using MediaWiki internally and have made the changes needed to allow
users to upload Excel spreadsheets and Word documents via the image
upload feature: by enabling uploads and adding .doc and .xls to the list
of preferred upload types.  The only thing that doesn't really work very
well is that when you link to an Excel spreadsheet, for example, it
still tries to thumbnail it and show a thumbnail.  What's the smallest
change I can make to the code to suppress the display of a thumbnail for
these two file types?  Thanks.

graham

This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded as an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial product, an official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official statement of Del Mar Asset Management. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Therefore, we do not represent that this information is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All information is subject to change without notice.


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have uploaded a new version with bugfixes and major speed
improvements. It now parses about 20KB of wiki text per second on my
machine (which is still slower than out current parser, as I am well aware).

Jim Higson schrieb:
> A suggestion on this kind of error:
>
> I think the best behaviour is to try to work out what the user intended, but
> not correct it in the parser, because without formal definition and when a
> parser is used as the reference of the language anything it doesn't mark as
> an error becomes valid syntax.

That is a good idea, but it depends on the user getting direct feedback
from the parser. But unless I can make mine orders of magnitudes faster,
it probably won't becom out "live" default parser.

That means for whatever purpose it will be used, the result should look
like the one from out "official" parser. When you export a nice-looking
wiki page into (e.g.) PDF, you don't want to lose headings in the
process. You'd have to look through all of the output carefully (bugs
might be less visible than missing headings), verifying the parser.

Of course, if this would ever be adopted as the "official machine", it
would be a different situation altogether.

Magnus
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCVmEjCZKBJbEFcz0RAtN8AJ0S6OYBV1d9ooLK1EVS1EkLbfvvWACeLiLC
jVrcr3kQsgMDiLaSRbqZNLs=
=KBvd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
> What was disrupted.
>
> How did I disrupt it.

Disruption means diverting people from their purpose. Which in this case
is building a superb, free encyclopedia.

I suggest you stop insisting on justice, and start *proving* your case
by:

1. Dropping all references to how "unfair" everyone has been to you
2. Making specific suggestions for improving the articles.

Then everyone will say, "How about that! An instant change from
fussbudget to helpful contributor."

You *did* come to Wikipedia to help make good encyclopedia articles,
didn't you?

Uncle Ed


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Answering myself, I have now a class variable to determine how to handle
these cases. If it is set to "don't tolerate", it inserts

	<error type="heading" reason="trailing blank"/>

for this specific error, and renders it at plain text.

Magnus

Magnus Manske schrieb:
> I have uploaded a new version with bugfixes and major speed
> improvements. It now parses about 20KB of wiki text per second on my
> machine (which is still slower than out current parser, as I am well aware).
>
> Jim Higson schrieb:
>
>>>A suggestion on this kind of error:
>>>
>>>I think the best behaviour is to try to work out what the user intended, but
>>>not correct it in the parser, because without formal definition and when a
>>>parser is used as the reference of the language anything it doesn't mark as
>>>an error becomes valid syntax.
>
>
> That is a good idea, but it depends on the user getting direct feedback
> from the parser. But unless I can make mine orders of magnitudes faster,
> it probably won't becom out "live" default parser.
>
> That means for whatever purpose it will be used, the result should look
> like the one from out "official" parser. When you export a nice-looking
> wiki page into (e.g.) PDF, you don't want to lose headings in the
> process. You'd have to look through all of the output carefully (bugs
> might be less visible than missing headings), verifying the parser.
>
> Of course, if this would ever be adopted as the "official machine", it
> would be a different situation altogether.
>
> Magnus
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=kXva
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] interwiki-links in WikiRolls

body:
On Apr 7, 2005 2:53 PM, Jakob <jakob.voss at s1999.tu-chemnitz.de> wrote:
> I read some complaints and questions on interwiki-links. Will there be the
> ability for admins to edit the list of interwiki-prefixes in MediaWiki 1.5 so
> developers do not have to deal with them anymore?

I haven't heard anything about such a thing, but I've been thinking
for a while that it would be a good idea; you never know, I might even
get round to doing it myself. Out of deference to wiki tradition,
though, it would probably end up being called Special:InterMap if I
had anything to do with it. :)

On Apr 7, 2005 8:43 PM, David Benbennick <dbenbenn at gmail.com> wrote:
> See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:SiteMatrix].

That's only for *internal* interwikis (between projects) rather than
the wider set of prefixes, which is more like what you could call a
"WikiRoll". That's currently managed for Wikimedia projects at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_map

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Ali Russ

subject:
[Wikitech-l] How to block editing to the main page,
	and only allow "View Source"

body:
Hi, I have now set up my Wiki and need to know how to remove the Edit tab from the main page and change it to a View Source tab. What code do I have to change to do this?

Thank you.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
> Show me some evidence of me diverting people from "their
> purpose", when
> that pupose has been the creation of an encyclopedia rather
> than their own
> personal ego.

You're doing it right now: treating Wikipedia like a social club which
has unfairly booted you out - instead of a service organization.

One last time:

* Why do you want to be in Wikipedia?
* What specific changes do you propose to improve any article?

Answer both these questions, and I can help you. Ignore them and, well,
sorry ...

Ed Poor


from_name: John Bradley

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Vandli 82.35.37.118 has started redoing his edits still
	without an explanation, still without answering any questions.

body:
Vandal  82.35.37.118  has started redoing his edits still without an
explanation, still without answering any questions. This constitutes a
personal attack on me.

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Angela

body:
On Apr 8, 2005 2:21 PM, Ali Russ <exprusty at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi, I have now set up my Wiki and need to know how to remove the Edit tab from the main page and change it to a View Source tab. What code do I have to change to do this?

Log in as an admin, then click the "protect" link at the top of the
page. The page then won't be editable to non-admins, and they will see
"view source" instead of "edit".

Angela.


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Vandli 82.35.37.118 has started redoing his edits
	still without an explanation, still without answering any questions.

body:
John Bradley said:
> Vandal  82.35.37.118  has started redoing his edits still without an
> explanation, still without answering any questions. This constitutes a
> personal attack on me.
>

How are his edits vandalism?  In
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_%28nightclub%29, for instance, he has
simply refined the category from "Liverpool" to "Arts and entertainment in
Liverpool", and in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles_Story he has
refined the category from "Liverpool" to "Visitor attractions in
Liverpool"  They may not be the best edits, but they're clearly good-faith
changes intended to structure the Liverpool category.  I believe that the
categories in question are both subcategories of "Liverpool" and of other
relevant categories (such as "Arts and entertainment in the UK by
locality").

As to your claim that making edits that you disagree with, without
explanation, constitutes "a personal attack" on you, that's obvious
nonsense.


body:
He has been asked for his retional and has not provided. Check his talk
page, you'll will find my rational written down there. What we have here is a
london from Camden I think, going through catogrising things when they
don't know what they are.

These things are best left in the Liverpool  Catgory as explained in my
outline of what I think should be happening. Why it objects to this is
unknown, why it thinks removing the [[Category:Liverpool]] is unkown.

It seem people consider my lack of resposne unwiki why not this idiot?

Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:35:30 +0100 (BST)
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Vandli 82.35.37.118 has started redoing his edits
	still without an explanation, still without answering any questions.
From:           	"Tony Sidaway" <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
To:             	<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Send reply to:  	minorityreport at bluebottle.com,
  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley said:
> > Vandal  82.35.37.118  has started redoing his edits still without an
> > explanation, still without answering any questions. This constitutes a
> > personal attack on me.
> >
>
>
> How are his edits vandalism?  In
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_%28nightclub%29, for instance, he has
> simply refined the category from "Liverpool" to "Arts and entertainment in
> Liverpool", and in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles_Story he has
> refined the category from "Liverpool" to "Visitor attractions in
> Liverpool"  They may not be the best edits, but they're clearly good-faith
> changes intended to structure the Liverpool category.  I believe that the
> categories in question are both subcategories of "Liverpool" and of other
> relevant categories (such as "Arts and entertainment in the UK by
> locality").
>
>
> As to your claim that making edits that you disagree with, without
> explanation, constitutes "a personal attack" on you, that's obvious
> nonsense.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


body:
Kevin Rector said:
>>Whatever happens, it'll be a horrible shitfight trying to cut the
> majestic
>>sprawl of en: Wikipedia down to a single concise volume. Say, fifty
>>thousand articles. WHICH FIFTY THOUSAND?
>
>>1. Whole areas will be cut out.
>>2. Areas we're particularly good in will get cut *way* back.
>>3. Endless, fractious and bloody wars over what gets in and what
> doesn't.
>
>>Is there a way around this which doesn't require someone making the
>>decision and choosing between pissing off half the community and
> pissing
>>off half the community?
>
> There is a very easy way around this, just don't do it. I won't be
> participating in a paper Wikipedia in any way whatsoever.
>

I don't see that it has to be that radical.  If people disagree with a
particular choice of subjects, they can print and sell their own version
with their own preferred choice.  It's all GFDL.  There's no need for
warring, except between the people who may be putting up the money to have
this project done--and I suspect this would be an outside body in any case
so it's their choice, not ours.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
What was disrupted.

How did I disrupt it.

The block was illegitimate and has been removed, the block was placed on
by someone who I had just started an arbcom against, who had just tried to
get the arbcom deleted. That user has continued to lie through out, this
exhange and some of his supportes now claim I broke 3RR, but can only
point to a place where I have not.

No expanation has been put forward of why this injunction.

Subject:        	RE: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner
Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:40:38 -0400
From:           	"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com>
To:             	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> > This is User:Irate, who was blocked at the start of a spate
> > of severely disruptive editing. The Arbitration Committee
> > case was quickly opened, and a temporary injunction applied
> > (in record time), banning him from editing any pages other
> > than his user pages or his arbitration case pages.
>
> That was the start of the spate
> Of disruption by user Irate.
> With prompt arbitration,
> To end aggravation,
> We hope all this fuss to abate.
>
> Uncle Ed
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Vandli 82.35.37.118 has started redoing his
	edits	still without an explanation, still without answering any ques

body:
John Bradley said:
> He has been asked for his retional and has not provided. Check his talk
>  page, you'll will find my rational written down there. What we have
> here is a  london from Camden I think, going through catogrising things
> when they  don't know what they are.
>

Well I should have thought that the nature of "The Beatles Story" and
"Cream (nightclub)" are pretty obvious.  But this is clearly a classical
example of a content dispute, not vandalism and certainly not personal
attacks.  Please try not to mistake one thing for another.
You may be right that the items are better off in the "Liverpool"
category; it seems to me to be a matter over which there can be a
legitimate difference of opinion.  Have you thought of listing that
category on WP:RFC to get some outside comment?


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
--- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> YOU have been booted from #wikipedia by Snowspinner
> (Snowspinner)
>
> 		Yours
>
> 		John Bradley

Will someone please block this guy from the mailing
list?

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com


from_name: Cool Hand Luke

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your arbcomm commitee

body:
On Apr 8, 2005 9:32 AM, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> What terrible behaviour. Show me the incidents which are terrible. If you
> cannot then retract you statement.

Have you seen [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Irate/Evidence]]?

It was based on an earlier RfC which was open for a week. You
apparently haven't responded to either except by asking "When are you
going to get you act togther and be honest because so far you acting
like a bunch of spoilt prefact at school." Oh, and you unilaterally
deleted your injunction.

On the face of it, you seem to have a problem with personal attacks.
This habit really mars your otherwise productive contributions.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your arbcomm commitee

body:
Irate has blanked his talk page and made reference to a conversation
with Jimbo that he had. He seems to be rethinking things. In any case,
I'm going to assume good faith for the moment, and I encourage
everybody else to do the same.

-Snowspinner

On Apr 8, 2005, at 2:13 PM, Matt R wrote:

> --- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Ok, well, I do, and you are cordially invited to either leave the
>>>> project or start treating other people with kindness and respect.
>>
>> Another question occurs. Is when are people going to treat me with
>> kindness and respect. That has been noticeable in the non answering of
>> questions evasive answering of questions. Which runs all the way to
>> the
>> top it seems.
>
> Hmm. Your demands for courtesy ring hollow, to be honest. I've watched
> people
> bend over backwards to treat you with kindness and respect, and I'm
> still
> waiting to see you return the favour to anyone. Do you remember this
> conversation last week (the first interaction we ever had)? It started
> like
> this...
>
> Matt Crypto> "Please avoid personal attacks. Thanks."
>
> Irate> "Shit for brains. If you want to stop personal attacks stop
> making them
> yourself. I do not apparciate bing talked to by idiots and you count
> as one.
> Now fuck off and don't come near me again."
>
> -- Matt
> [[User:Matt Crypto]]
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Who is Ashlee Simpson?"

body:
Fails for 'Who is Jimbo Wales?', in the sense that the top hit isn't WP.
But interesting to do anyway.

Good for 'who is Charles Matthews?' - great since there have been many
Charles Matthews in history, including a friend of Lord Byron who is (still)
more famous than me.

Charles


subject: [WikiEN-l] 'Who is Ashlee Simpson?'

body:
Charles Matthews said:
> Good for 'who is Charles Matthews?' - great since there have been many
> Charles Matthews in history, including a friend of Lord Byron who is
> (still)  more famous than me.

Probably less of a party animal than you these days, though.


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] April Fool's Day next year

body:
On Apr 6, 2005 10:51 PM, Deathphoenix <originaldeathphoenix at gmail.com> wrote:
> This probably calls for more organised planning on a [[Wikipedia:Project
> April Fools 2006]] page, perhaps a month or so in advance. I don't see
> anything wrong with what I saw in one iteration of this year's April
> Fools main page, which was putting up an  FA article about an unusual
> subject that wasn't FA before, and putting links to articles such as
> [[exploding whale]] as "previous candidates" (well, that particular
> version had the toilet roll holder, but that can be replaced with a real
> FA). The April Fools FA should go through a normal FA process with the
> caveat that it be an FA article for April Fools.

Incidentally, if we do establish some sort of organized April Fools'
Day prank, we may want to ask the folks here for help:
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Main_Page. Someone linked it in
#wikipedia; it's like a constant April 1st version of Wikipedia. For
example, see their entry on the Isle of Man: "The Isle of Man does not
exist-Man is not an Isle!"

--Slowking Man


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your arbcomm commitee

body:
I agree - this was a serious problem. I'm hoping that his period of
reflection will involve understanding that. In any case, I'm inclined
to wait for the period of reflection.

-Snowspinner

On Apr 8, 2005, at 4:09 PM, JAY JG wrote:

>> From: Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> Irate has blanked his talk page and made reference to a conversation
>> with Jimbo that he had. He seems to be rethinking things. In any
>> case, I'm going to assume good faith for the moment, and I encourage
>> everybody else to do the same.
>>
>> -Snowspinner
>
> I'd like to, but I haven't seen any evidence yet that he comprehends
> what a "personal attack" is.
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your arbcomm commitee

body:
What terrible behaviour. Show me the incidents which are terrible. If you
cannot then retract you statement.

As you did not include the incidents this is a personal attack.

I invite you to stop pretending that Wikipedia is an encylopedia and start
admitting it is a social club.

Now you have stated I should be banned for my behaviour you will list the
incidents and the reasoning behind them. When you have done that I will
go through and point out where everyone else has broken those rules and I
will expect you to send the same invitaion to them.

Seems fair to me.

Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:17:58 -0700
From:           	"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
To:             	John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk>
Copies to:      	arbitration at nohat.net
Subject:        	Re: Your arbcomm commitee

> (John asked me to look into his situation, and this is my response.  I
> hope he will take it to heart.)
>
> John Bradley wrote:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Irate#RFC
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Irate
>
> I'm sorry but I will not be able to help you.  I reviewed your user
> talk page and frankly you should have been at least temporarily banned
> from editing months ago for your terrible behavior.
>
> A representative quote from 2 days ago:
> "I dont give a fuck about Wikiquette."
>
> Ok, well, I do, and you are cordially invited to either leave the
> project or start treating other people with kindness and respect.
>
> Do not respond to me with a tale of woe about other people starting
> it.  We are all expected in Wikipedia to rise above the foibles of
> others and do our best for ourselves.
>
> --Jimbo
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Personal attack by User:Calton

body:
User:Calton. Has now start personal attack on me, it arguable include a
threat. When will this user be blocked for this?

"I reverted Irate's unilateral reversion of his injunction. Son, you're cruisin'
for an ArbCom bruisin'"

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your arbcomm commitee

body:
> > Ok, well, I do, and you are cordially invited to either leave the
> > project or start treating other people with kindness and respect.
> >
> > Do not respond to me with a tale of woe about other people starting
> > it.  We are all expected in Wikipedia to rise above the foibles of
> > others and do our best for ourselves.

Another question occurs. Is when are people going to treat me with
kindness and respect. That has been noticeable in the non answering of
questions evasive answering of questions. Which runs all the way to the
top it seems.

If we are all expect to rise above the foibles of others, why is no one expect
to rise above my foibles. Why is it so one sided.

I'm assuming you count the false accusation of 3RR highlight on my page
as just foibles I must over come, rather than the personal abuse it
undoubtably is.		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

body:
> User:Calton. Has now start personal attack on me, it arguable include a
> threat. When will this user be blocked for this?
>
>
> "I reverted Irate's unilateral reversion of his injunction. Son, you're
cruisin'
> for an ArbCom bruisin'"
>
> Yours
>
> John Bradley

It was not a 'personal threat'. I would love to know what you think a
personal threat is. He reverted you after you removed the temporary
injunction placed on you, which was on your arbitration page. I hardly class
that as a threat - I would of done the same.

I'm interested to know why you post to yourself on your talk page, by the
way.

- D. Hedley


body:
FIrst;ly I'm not his son and I object to that language.

"Youre cruisin for an ArbCom bruisin'" is most defintely a threat.

I post to my home page because the arbcomm has decided not to let me
post anywherelse. Mainly I think to stop me correcting the dishonesty in the
defenses put forward against my RFC's.

From:           	"David 'DJ' Hedley" <spyders at btinternet.com>
To:             	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Personal attack by User:Calton
Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:45:06 +0100
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> > User:Calton. Has now start personal attack on me, it arguable include a
> > threat. When will this user be blocked for this?
> >
> >
> > "I reverted Irate's unilateral reversion of his injunction. Son,
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > John Bradley
>
> It was not a 'personal threat'. I would love to know what you think a
> personal threat is. He reverted you after you removed the temporary
> injunction placed on you, which was on your arbitration page. I hardly class
> that as a threat - I would of done the same.
>
> I'm interested to know why you post to yourself on your talk page, by the
> way.
>
> - D. Hedley
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your arbcomm commitee

body:
>From: Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net>
>
>Irate has blanked his talk page and made reference to a conversation with
>Jimbo that he had. He seems to be rethinking things. In any case, I'm going
>to assume good faith for the moment, and I encourage everybody else to do
>the same.
>
>-Snowspinner

I'd like to, but I haven't seen any evidence yet that he comprehends what a
"personal attack" is.

Jay.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

body:
notafish wrote:

>>You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
>>staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.
>>
>>That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)
>>
>>http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/04/08/1658247.shtml?tid=109&tid=95&tid=8
>>
>>
>Hey I have a proposal ;-)
>All active users of all wikipedias take one day off the wiki and edit
>Encarta for a day.
>Let's see if they can handle that ;-)
>
>PS. Don't forget to preview before sending your edition ;-). Or again, not.
>
Anyone choosing to do this should end his contribution with a statement
to the effect that the material is being released under the terms of
GFDL. :-)

Ec


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wiki-to-XML pseudo-parser in PHP

body:
Your many discussions are nice to read, but wouldn't it be better that
you open a page for this subject-matter on the meta wiki ?
KISS - keep it short and simple
Tom


subject: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous leader.

body:
The mail Mr Wales sent to me was copied into Copies to:
arbitration at nohat.net

It's strange but I get a bounce when I try to copy in my replies to the mail,
not being a member of the list.

Just another way in which wikipedia places everyone at the mercy of the
arbcomm. A bunch of people who cannot even be bothered to make there
reasoning clear.

The more this goes on, the more obvious it becomes, that the people
running the show aren't here for the data.		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
YOU have been booted from #wikipedia by Snowspinner (Snowspinner)

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous leader.

body:
> The mail Mr Wales sent to me was copied into Copies to:
> arbitration at nohat.net
>
> It's strange but I get a bounce when I try to copy in my replies to the
mail,
> not being a member of the list.
>
> Just another way in which wikipedia places everyone at the mercy of the
> arbcomm. A bunch of people who cannot even be bothered to make there
> reasoning clear.
>
> The more this goes on, the more obvious it becomes, that the people
> running the show aren't here for the data. Yours
>
> John Bradley
>
> Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
>

You have no obligation to use or contribute to Wikipedia. If you don't like
things there are other Wikis, other encyclopaedia projects, and so on.

- D. Hedley


subject: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous leader.

body:
The rules are fine it just the people that are awful.

From:           	"David 'DJ' Hedley" <spyders at btinternet.com>
To:             	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous leader.
Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:44:02 +0100
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> > The mail Mr Wales sent to me was copied into Copies to:
> > arbitration at nohat.net
> >
> > It's strange but I get a bounce when I try to copy in my replies to the
> mail,
> > not being a member of the list.
> >
> > Just another way in which wikipedia places everyone at the mercy of the
> > arbcomm. A bunch of people who cannot even be bothered to make there
> > reasoning clear.
> >
> > The more this goes on, the more obvious it becomes, that the people
> > running the show aren't here for the data. Yours
> >
> > John Bradley
> >
> > Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
> >
>
> You have no obligation to use or contribute to Wikipedia. If you don't like
> things there are other Wikis, other encyclopaedia projects, and so on.
>
> - D. Hedley
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
> YOU have been booted from #wikipedia by Snowspinner (Snowspinner)
>
> Yours
>
> John Bradley
>
> Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
>

Please stop trolling the mailing list. I am sure he booted you for a
perfectly good reason.

- D. Hedley


from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous [sic] leader.

body:
On Friday, April 08, 2005 5:29 PM, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:

> The mail Mr Wales sent to me was copied [snip] to:
> arbitration at nohat.net.

Yes. The private email that Jimbo sent you was part of a series of emails
conducted between yourself and the Committee (which includes Jimbo, as it
were). Note that word there - "private". That you didn't respect the
convention of standard etiquette, which, extended onto the Internet, becomes
"Netiquette", that private email stays private (as with any other form of
correspondence) unless permission is granted from the author(s) is ...
unfortunate.

> It's strange but I get a bounce when I try to copy in my
> replies to the mail, not being a member of the list.

Indeed. The list is a private list. Gosh, that word again. It is for the
private deliberation of that problematic users and situations collectively
known as "Arbitration cases".

> Just another way in which wikipedia places everyone at the mercy of the
> arbcomm.

Wikipedia is "at the mercy of" Jimbo. Jimbo has delegated his "mercy", to
use your term, to the Arbitration Committee that he convened over 15 months
ago, and which he periodically refreshes the membership thereof as guided by
the wishes of the community. Significant disciplinary matters in Wikipedia
are thus guided by a number of editors who are held in high esteem by the
community at large (or, at least, so one hopes).

> A bunch of people who cannot even be bothered to make there
> reasoning clear.

Their reasoning seems quite clear to me. Perhaps I'm standing in some sort
of reality distortion bubble, along with the rest of the Committee and
Wikipedia community?

> The more this goes on, the more obvious it becomes, that the people
> running the show aren't here for the data.

If you mean, "[..] aren't here for the good of the Project", I sadly have to
agree with you - there are indeed some people who have contributed to
Wikipedia who do not seem to follow the goals of the project. This is
greatly saddening. Indeed, the various forms of dispute resolution, of which
Arbitration is oft seen as the most serious (and is very much often the most
terminal) form, sometimes see users who are evidently out to disrupt the
Project.

Those from whom the community judges it receives more trouble than their
contributions are worth, however, are another class of user, and a much more
common form. They, too, are to be excluded from the Project, because we are
all but as cogs in the great machine that is Wikipedia, and not one of us is
irreplacable. Cogs who feel that they are often end up being forcibly
removed, and, with time, their position is filled by another, and so on it
goes.

[Snip sig]

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
Which reason show me. I had only just connected.

From:           	"David 'DJ' Hedley" <spyders at btinternet.com>
To:             	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.
Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:51:21 +0100
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> > YOU have been booted from #wikipedia by Snowspinner (Snowspinner)
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > John Bradley
> >
> > Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
> >
>
> Please stop trolling the mailing list. I am sure he booted you for a
> perfectly good reason.
>
> - D. Hedley
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
Show me some evidence of me diverting people from "their purpose", when
that pupose has been the creation of an encyclopedia rather than their own
personal ego.

Subject:        	RE: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner
Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:47:50 -0400
From:           	"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com>
To:             	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> > What was disrupted.
> >
> > How did I disrupt it.
>
> Disruption means diverting people from their purpose. Which in this case
> is building a superb, free encyclopedia.
>
> I suggest you stop insisting on justice, and start *proving* your case
> by:
>
> 1. Dropping all references to how "unfair" everyone has been to you
> 2. Making specific suggestions for improving the articles.
>
> Then everyone will say, "How about that! An instant change from
> fussbudget to helpful contributor."
>
> You *did* come to Wikipedia to help make good encyclopedia articles,
> didn't you?
>
> Uncle Ed
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
> Would someone please facilitate Irate's departure from the mailing list?
>
> Thanks,
> Snowspinner
>
> On Apr 8, 2005, at 11:43 AM, John Bradley wrote:
>
> > YOU have been booted from #wikipedia by Snowspinner (Snowspinner)
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > John Bradley
> >
> > Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
> >
> >
> >

I agree with this request, his posts appear to be delibrately disruptive and
are probably annoying a number of mailing list members. He has nothing good
to contribute to this list.