subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
There are two cases that concern me a lot because of the characteristics
exhibited by the main editors involved.

Maoririder, whose case is before the arbitration comittee and is still
in the evidence phase, is not an obvious vandal or troll.  He has made
 large numbers of vanishingly small stubs, some of which have grown
into very impressive articles, and also asked intriguing, childlike,
questions in an appropriate forum.

Wiki brah, who has been subjected to many blocks from his earliest
appearance in mid-August, has written articles that have been
identified as "nonsense" by RC patrollers, but a discussion with
fellow administrators they tended to the opinion that the articles
were acceptable newbie stubs and did not merit the vandalism warnings
that they provoked:

06:56, 14 August 2005 Lucky 6.9 deleted "Keyboard dust bag" (content was:
'You might have seen this little dillio at the automatic repair garage or
any other place where typist have dirty or greazy hands. This is the thin
ty...' (and the only contributor was 'Wiki brah'))

06:55, 14 August 2005 Lucky 6.9 deleted "Cellshell" (content was: 'this is
that colored plastic pice that fits over your cell pohne. It changed its
colors, see? These things are not all that populbar anymore with th...'
(and the only contributor was 'Wiki brah'))

06:50, 14 August 2005 Lucky 6.9 deleted "Altimeter calibration knob"
(content was: 'THIS is the small dial or knob on the console of an
airplane that lets you adjust the altimeter to set the barometric pressure
that is cruical to the ...' (and the only contributor was 'Wiki brah'))

For some time I have had a strong suspicion that Maoririder may be
autistic.  Wiki brah's contributions also fit the pattern.

The above reminds me of an early response to Maoririder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Maoririder&diff=19735578&oldid=19735159

"Those "bloody-nosed beetle" and "big-eyed bug" nanostubs are tantamount
to vandalism. If you'd like to experiment, please use the
[[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Thanks."

While the stubs in question were indeed tiny, they were hardly vandalism.

Big-eyed bug, for instance, read as follows:

It is a type of bug.

Template:Bug-stub

Today Wikipedia has coverage for both of those insects, mainly thanks
to Maoririder's stubs and the good faith expansions performed by other
editors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody-nosed_Beetle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-eyed_bug

Another of Maoririder's stubs was Portland High School.  Later moved
to "Portland High School, Portland Maine" Maoririder's original stub
read:

It is located in Portland, Maine

Template:Maine-stub

The article was listed on AfD four days after its creation.  The
article was expanded--the school, founded in 1821, turned out to be
one of the first public high schools founded in the United States
after the Revolution, and the article was expanded in a few minutes
and, via a premature speedy delete or two, the result of the debate
was keep, with only one vote to delete.

Both Maoririder and Wiki brah have been labelled, variously, trolls
and vandals, although I do not see strong evidence to support either
label.

Both of them have expressed a strong wish to produce work for
Wikipedia. Both of them produce articles that appear weird to
non-autists.  In my
opinion, neither represents a threat to Wikipedia commensurate to the
treatment they have received.

Should the world's first encyclopedia that anyone can edit continue
knowingly to alienate, abuse and reject autists?


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article quality deterioration (was: a valid criticism)

body:
On 10/10/05, slimvirgin at gmail.com <slimvirgin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/10/05, uninvited at nerstrand.net <uninvited at nerstrand.net> wrote:
> > The problem is that people come along and make incremental changes each
> > of which, taken alone, is unremarkable -- neither helpful nor
> > especially detrimental to the article.  In aggregate, such changes
> > destroy the organization of the article and compromise any stylistic
> > unity that may be present.
> >
> > Such changes should really be reverted when they are made, with a kind
> > note offered to the other editor.
> >
> > But Responsible Wikipedians Don't Revert Changes.
> >
> > We have a culture of egalitarianism and a culture where reverting
> > changes is strongly discouraged.
>
> Right, this is a real problem. We've got an RfC going at the moment
> about an editor accused of reverting too much, when what he was doing
> was trying to preserve halfway-decent writing, and one of the people
> who has commented here in praise of good writing has criticized this
> editor in the RfC for reverting too much, which strikes me as somewhat
> contradictory.
>
> What are we supposed to do when editors cause the writing in an
> article to deteriorate, if  not revert? Are a bunch of people who care
> about good writing supposed to be on hand constantly to carefully tidy
> up after others, just so that we can avoid wholesale reverting? It
> simply isn't realistic to expect that. The fact is that lots of
> editors add material that is badly written, badly sourced, unsourced,
> and wrong -- and reverting, including repeatedly reverting, is
> sometimes the only practical way to keep the page reasonably
> encyclopedic looking.

Slimvirgin's points are well founded, and that's why the 3RR is
problematic - at just six edits, it freezes the relationship between
the two parties, forcing an artifical stalemate with no real incentive
for compromise.

In fact, more often, the 24 hour ban is employed, causing even more
rancor and bad feelings for one party. That 3RR is not an entitlement,
but an electric fence, brings problems too - it's used inconsistently
and extends banning to a whole class of editors that had never been
subject to it before. It's the [[Taser]] of Wikipedia, with many of
the pitfalls of the supposed 'non-lethal' weapon.

But there is an elegant solution somewhere between protecting an
article (too rigid) and article rating (too complex) - every article
can have a marker indicating the last-agree-upon-version. Anyone can
change the marker to point to a particular version in the edit
history, in wiki fashion. In effect, it would be the version that "the
crowd" considers the most acceptable one, while editing, sparring,
major revisions are happening on the 'current' one. If there is
consensus that it is generally good, the marker can be moved upon
every edit to be the current one. Or if overhauling is being done, the
marker can be kept back to an older rev while issues are ironed out.
(It removes the angst of having your edits "winning" and being in the
current version, and removes much of the 3RR angst.)

The marker system is easy to understand, straightforward to implement,
minimally impacts current working methods, does not require agreed
upon metric values, and is inherently wiki.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
Also, check this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Redwolf24

An RFC written up by Wiki brah concerning Redwolf24.

- d.


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Image licenses; a small suggestion

body:
Do remember that the database dumps are also sometimes used to do
analysis on to benefit Wikipedia. We should make as many namespaces
available as possible.

--Mgm


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Seeking image manipulation websites

body:
Are there any photo / image websites (similar to flickr.com) that
allow the user to manipulate (i.e. edit) the uploaded images,
similar to running Gimp or Photoshop but as a web application?

I was thinking about this functionality for Wikimedia Commons, so
I'm seeking some inspirational examples to look at. Are there any?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


body:
On 10/11/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/11/05, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The marker system is easy to understand, straightforward to implement,
> > minimally impacts current working methods, does not require agreed
> > upon metric values, and is inherently wiki.
>
> So people just edit war over the position of the marker.

Yes, that's why it's inherently wiki. :)

But there's less disruption than trying to force your definitive edit
in the "current" version. And it would seem a step in the right
direction towards "version 1.0."

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
On 10/11/05, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, check this:
>
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Redwolf24
>
> An RFC written up by Wiki brah concerning Redwolf24.
>

I also made a copy, adapted slightly, and posted it as an outside view
in the RfC on Wiki brah which precipitated Redwolf24's two-week
blocking of Wiki brah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Wiki_brah#Outside_view_by_Tony_Sidaway


from_name: GerardM

body:
Hoi,
There is a big problem with people going about changing pictures in Commons.
People use the license as an excuse to have their "anything goes" attitude
vindicated. This has already led to a big row with several prominent people
from the Dutch wikipedia community to have anything to do with Commons.

The idea of making it even easier to change pictures would make this
situation worse.

There were several issues involved.

*When there is a picture of a painting; changing the colours is BAD. A photo
reflects what the picture looks like. Changing the colours arbitrarily
because it "looks good" is falsifying what the picture is about.
*There is a lot of resistance to websites that use Wikipedia material
commercially without them making due reference to the original site an
original author. This resulted in the inclusion of watermarks that were then
deleted.

The first issue is a big NONO, the second requires a more proactive stance
of the foundation and its chapters. But my message to you is NO !! DO NOT
CHANGE PICTURES !!

Thanks,
GerardM

On 10/11/05, Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se> wrote:
>
> Are there any photo / image websites (similar to flickr.com<http://flickr.com>)
> that
> allow the user to manipulate (i.e. edit) the uploaded images,
> similar to running Gimp or Photoshop but as a web application?
>
> I was thinking about this functionality for Wikimedia Commons, so
> I'm seeking some inspirational examples to look at. Are there any?
>
>
> --
> Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
> Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikitech-l

from_name: John Anthony Hartman

subject: [Wikitech-l] Namespace

body:
I was wondering if it is possible to throw a switch for a given namespace
and make unprefixed links within that namespace point to that namespace?

For example, within the "Foo" namespace, I have an article named "Bar", so
its address is "Foo:Bar", and typically you'd link to it by typing
"[[Foo:Bar]]".  But if I am linking from "Bar" to "Baz", which is also in
the "Foo" namespace, then I would like to type just "[[Baz]]", not
"[[Foo:Baz]]".  Is that possible?

 ___________________________________________________
John Anthony Hartman
website: http://www.websage.org
podcast: Multi-Media Me- http://pmo.websage.org
 "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. "
--Arthur C. Clarke


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Castro and User:Actionforum (was: The 3RR is an electric
	fence, not an entitlement.)

body:
David Gerard replied to Geoff about:

> >> wrote a bunch of stuff about Castro, forgetting that this is
> >> wikien-l, not bitchaboutcommunistdictatorsofcarribeanislands-l.
>
> >I've stopped reading his emails here a day or two ago myself
> -- about
> >the time I realized that he was repeating himself. Would the list
> >moderators do us a favor & start reviewing his postings?
>
>
> We don't like the big stick 'cos we're really nice, and
> anyway it resembles work. But I'd certainly ask him to avoid
> it except as direct examples of the issues to hand, and even
> then if possible. I don't expect anyone here to particularly
> agree with anyone else on political or other POVs, but being
> able to discuss examples without seeming to snap at each
> other - or edit-warring - is probably essential to writing an
> NPOV encyclopedia.

We give a lot of attention to users complaining about being
blocked by administrators for being rude or disorderly, when
they are actually being nasty and disruptive. What about s
pending some time and energy Writing Articles about dictators
who imprison or kill people for "disturbing the public order",
when all they have actually done is protest the corruption of
the dictator and his cronies?

This is my annual scolding to Wikipedia for being soft on
Communism:

I am complaining about the pronounced leftist / liberal slant
in the country and history articles dealing with Communism.
We have ten times as much material on the Holocaust, even the
Communism his killed 10 or 20 times as many people!

"You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs." This is the
Communist, Marxist-Leninist point of view. Is this an official
Wikipedia POV?

Let's not dismiss contributor complaints with flippant rhetoric
like "bitching about". This is not some kid kicking up a fuss
because mommy took his video game.

Wikipedia needs to get serious about describing human rights.

Ed Poor, aka "Uncle Ed"


subject: [WikiEN-l] Article quality deterioration

body:
The "marker idea" will only work if it can be moved back to point to an
earlier version. If it can be moved up again to point to a later
version, we'll get reversion wars over the marker.

Ed Poor


subject: [WikiEN-l] Per-article blocking (was: Article quality deterioration)

body:
Michael Snow calmly and firmly intoned:

> An incremental approach of taking people off particular
> articles is less
> drastic and leaves them free to make more helpful edits
> elsewhere. Those
> that are particularly attached to their material would have a
> powerful
> incentive to retrain themselves, since we don't have time to be their
> writing tutors. However, if someone gets asked off of a number of
> articles, then at some point we would need to look at asking
> them not to
> edit any more. Incidentally, I would still very much like to see a
> per-article blocking feature.

I've heard that the developers have already written the "programming
code" needed to implement per-article blocking. They are just waiting
humbly for a clear consensus to emerge before putting into service.

How do we indicate a consensus for this? Do we vote, or what?

Ed Poor
(somewhere in vacation-land)


body:
On 10/11/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> GerardM wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > There is a big problem with people going about changing pictures in
> Commons.
> > People use the license as an excuse to have their "anything goes"
> attitude
> > vindicated. This has already led to a big row with several prominent
> people
> > from the Dutch wikipedia community to have anything to do with Commons.
> >
> > The idea of making it even easier to change pictures would make this
> > situation worse.
> >
> > There were several issues involved.
> >
> > *When there is a picture of a painting; changing the colours is BAD. A
> photo
> > reflects what the picture looks like. Changing the colours arbitrarily
> > because it "looks good" is falsifying what the picture is about.
> > *There is a lot of resistance to websites that use Wikipedia material
> > commercially without them making due reference to the original site an
> > original author. This resulted in the inclusion of watermarks that were
> then
> > deleted.
> >
> > The first issue is a big NONO, the second requires a more proactive
> stance
> > of the foundation and its chapters. But my message to you is NO !! DO
> NOT
> > CHANGE PICTURES !!
>
> Well, if you won't let us change a picture, how can you claim that it is
> free?
>
> What I think you are talking about is image protection. Drop me a list
> on my commons talk page and I'll gladly protect them.
>

Hoi,
First of all I can protect pictures if I want to because I am an admin of
commons as well. Second it does not help if it is admins who do the
changing. Third, if you use the fact that a picture is free as an excuse,
then you do not address the issues raised. The fact that you are allowed to
use a picture and make changes does not mean that it is good or wise to do
so. When you want to change a picture, save the revised picture elsewhere
and do not trouble the world with in your face esthetic notions.

The point of a picture being free does not mean that it is good form to
replace a picture. Yes it is legal, it is also bad manners.

Thanks,
GerardM


subject:
[WikiEN-l] We seek good writers and knowledgeable people (was: a
	valid criticism)

body:
> At 07:03 PM 10/7/2005, Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
>
> >We shouldn't give up the principle of open editing but we should
> >make clear now from the beginning that we seek good writers and
> >knowledgeable people, not anyone. Yes, anyone _can_ edit an article.
> >But not anyone _should_ edit any article.

Then let's change the main page to say:

* We seek good writers and knowledgeable people to
  contribute to Wikipedia. Click [here] to find out
  how you can join!

Uncle Ed     <-- who wants us to stop saying "anyone can edit, anytime"


from_name: Michael Turley

subject: Moving a marker? Was: Re: [WikiEN-l] Article quality deterioration

body:
On 10/11/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> The "marker idea" will only work if it can be moved back to point to an
> earlier version. If it can be moved up again to point to a later
> version, we'll get reversion wars over the marker.

Throughout this discussion, there has been a question lurking that I
finally must ask:

How is moving a marker functionally any different than simply
reverting to some selected point in the article's history?

The only difference I can conceive is that the edit history remains a
little more simple with a marker system.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: Carbonite

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Per-article blocking (was: Article quality
	deterioration)

body:
On 10/11/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
>
> I've heard that the developers have already written the "programming
> code" needed to implement per-article blocking. They are just waiting
> humbly for a clear consensus to emerge before putting into service.
>
> How do we indicate a consensus for this? Do we vote, or what?

 There's was a poll at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Per-article_blocking and only 6%
oppose per-article blocking (84% support and 10% are neutral). The last vote
was cast over a month ago, so I think we can accept the results are being
pretty conclusive. At the very least, this should be put into trial use as
soon as the code is working.
 Carbonite


from_name: actionforum at comcast.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
Why not ask them if they are autistic, rather than diagnosing
them over the internet.  Probably most severe autistics are
diagnosed and aware of their diagnosis.  I suspect there is
a continuum though from "normal" to "autistic" without a
clear demarcating line.

I tend to side with tolerating them, whether diagnosed or
not if they are not too disruptive.

                        -- Silverback


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
> I mean how is
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/
> index.php?title=User_talk:Maoririder&diff=prev&oldid=25001203
>
> acceptable?

It isn't, it should be deleted, and is a problem if it occurs too
frequently, say more than a couple times a month.  I would
only bother asking for a block for persistant behavior.

                             -- Silverback


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
On 10/11/05, Ryan Norton <wxprojects at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>  > Maoririder, whose case is before the arbitration comittee and is still
>  >in the evidence phase, is not an obvious vandal or troll
> I mean how is
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/
> index.php?title=User_talk:Maoririder&diff=prev&oldid=25001203
>
> acceptable?
>

Yes, alas.  If I were treated as Maoririder has been, I'd probably
lose my rag a bit.  I'm shocked that his loss of composure (which he
removed) is being treated here as evidence of his being a troll of
vandal.

More than shocked, actually.  I'm fucking livid.  But never mind.


body:
GerardM wrote:

> The idea of making it even easier to change pictures would make
> this situation worse.

If you want to reference a certain version, you should be able to
reference that version.  The same goes for the text of an article.

> *When there is a picture of a painting; changing the colours is
> BAD. A photo reflects what the picture looks like. Changing the
> colours arbitrarily because it "looks good" is falsifying what
> the picture is about.

The same goes for the text of an article.  Don't change the facts
only for the purpose of making the lines rhyme.  But if the text
is wrong or the picture was taken with the wrong exposure, this
can be corrected afterwards.  Images have talk pages, just like
text articles.  Revert vandalism, but allow improvements.

Perhaps a "diff" function for images is the first function we
need, so versions could be compared against each other.

> The first issue is a big NONO, the second requires a more
> proactive stance of the foundation and its chapters. But my
> message to you is NO !! DO NOT CHANGE PICTURES !!

Then you should use a no-derivates (ND) Creative Commons license,
and/or lock the image from modifications. The same goes for texts.
I don't see the principal difference.  It's a wiki.

So, I already have the ability (Gimp) to modify an image offline
and upload a new version, and I'm already encouraging people to do
this for some images.  I'm now looking for examples of how to
design a web application to make this procedure less complicated
for the average user.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


from_name: charles matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote

>Should the world's first encyclopedia that anyone can edit continue
knowingly to alienate, abuse and reject autists?

That would be a rhetorical question?

No, and no one else either.  WP is not here 'abuse' or 'reject' anyone; not,
for example, those with bad English writing for wiki-en.

Personal abuse is not acceptable.  Some people do use it to try to drive
away posters whose postings they dislike.  But those engaging in abuse
always put themselves in the wrong.

The correct, effective approach was worked out long ago: sanctions are
against behaviour, not content.

Charles


from_name: Robert Treat

subject: [Wikitech-l] Odd installation side effect

body:
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 09:44, Paul D. Buck wrote:
> Brion,
>
> Actually I have said it repeatedly.
>
> Make a wiki installation.
> Make sure it works.
> Rename the folder containing the Wiki on the server
> change the $wgScriptPath      from say "/b-w" (original installation)
> to "/boinc-wiki";
> try new url, changing only /b-w/index.php to /boinc-wiki/index.php
>
> At this point I get a blank page.
>
Just to confirm, have you changed the $IP variable in your LocalSettings.php
as well?  Brion alluded to this and afaict you need to make sure it has been
changed as well, but you keep reffering only to having changed $wgScriptPath.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


body:
On 10/11/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The marker system is easy to understand, straightforward to implement,
> > > > minimally impacts current working methods, does not require agreed
> > > > upon metric values, and is inherently wiki.
> > >
> > > So people just edit war over the position of the marker.
> >
> > Yes, that's why it's inherently wiki. :)
> >
> > But there's less disruption than trying to force your definitive edit
> > in the "current" version.
>
> No it isn't

Care to elaborate?

Saying, "But edit wars will ensue" is obvious, as that is always a
risk with a wiki.

-Andrew


body:
On 10/11/05, Anthony DiPierro <wikispam at inbox.org> wrote:
> On 10/10/05, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > But there is an elegant solution somewhere between protecting an
> > article (too rigid) and article rating (too complex) - every article
> > can have a marker indicating the last-agree-upon-version. Anyone can
> > change the marker to point to a particular version in the edit
> > history, in wiki fashion. In effect, it would be the version that "the
> > crowd" considers the most acceptable one, while editing, sparring,
> > major revisions are happening on the 'current' one. If there is
> > consensus that it is generally good, the marker can be moved upon
> > every edit to be the current one. Or if overhauling is being done, the
> > marker can be kept back to an older rev while issues are ironed out.
> > (It removes the angst of having your edits "winning" and being in the
> > current version, and removes much of the 3RR angst.)
> >
> > The marker system is easy to understand, straightforward to implement,
> > minimally impacts current working methods, does not require agreed
> > upon metric values, and is inherently wiki.
>
>
> I'd rather see a radical expansion of the the featured articles system.
> Instead of nominating an article, you'd nominate a version of an article.
> The standards would be radically lessened from the current featured article
> standard, of course. As long as an article was well structured, had adequate
> references, lacked non-free images, was NPOV, etc., it'd pass. No
> requirement that the article actually be one of "the best", just that it be
> acceptable for a static/semi-static copy (think CD/DVD distro).
>
> Even if an article failed this process, it'd produce a list of what needed
> to be fixed.

Anthony, I agree. It seems that the two ideas go hand in hand. At the
very least, once FA status has been conferred, you refer to that exact
revision. We have already seen the backslide of a number of FAs.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
>Why not ask them if they are autistic, rather than diagnosing
>them over the internet.  Probably most severe autistics are
>diagnosed and aware of their diagnosis.  I suspect there is
>a continuum though from "normal" to "autistic" without a
>clear demarcating line.
>I tend to side with tolerating them, whether diagnosed or
>not if they are not too disruptive.

Mmm. While "autistic" and "aspergic" are neither synonyms nor excuses
for "arsehole" by a long shot, it's a Don't Bite The Newbies thing -
despite the ridiculous quantities of crap that RC/newpages patrollers
deal with, which can leave them understandably terse. Or a Don't Bite
The Brittle thing.

Wikipedia is like a magnet for fact-obsessed asocial geeks, whether by
inclination or brain structure. The trick being not to bend the
structure of Wikipedia out of shape in the process of adapting to
them. It's a tricky one all the way down.

(Tony sent a copy of his email to the AC as well for consideration in
the two cases mentioned.)

- d.


body:
On 10/11/05, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/11/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > How is moving a marker functionally any different than simply
> > reverting to some selected point in the article's history?
>
> If you have a latest edit (being the version you get when you click
> the Edit button) and a marked version (being the version you get when
> you visit the article) then you have twice as much opportunity to edit
> war.
>
> And twice as much scope for vandalism.

OK, now the question *I should have* asked.

How is a moving a marker to designate a preferred version functionally
*better* than simply reverting to a chosen edit in the article's
history?

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Paul D. Buck wrote:
> Brion,
>
> Actually I have said it repeatedly.
>
> Make a wiki installation.
> Make sure it works.
> Rename the folder containing the Wiki on the server
> change the $wgScriptPath      from say "/b-w" (original installation)
> to "/boinc-wiki";
> try new url, changing only /b-w/index.php to /boinc-wiki/index.php
>
> At this point I get a blank page.
>
> Nothing hard, so, I am failing to understand why we are not
> communicating here. Each time you ask, I say I did this.

That's false -- you've said you changed *something* but you have failed,
over and over again, to say *what* you've changed.

If you're going to post to the *software development* mailing list, it's
generally expected that you should have some minimum ability to explain
what you're trying to do, and to be able to provide specific information
when asked for follow-up details.

Above you've finally said which variable you're changing -- thank you
for that! If the above description is in fact complete, then it's clear
that you are NOT setting the necessary variables, so the include files
fail to load and a fatal error occurs.

Since you have failed to follow the directions I gave you to enable
error display or error logging, you're getting blank output instead of
seeing the error message.

You also didn't bother to read and respond to my last message where I
told you specifically which variables you have to change:

>> At a minimum, if renaming the parent directory you will likely need to
>> update the $IP and $wgScriptPath variables in LocalSettings.php.

Please read the above sentence, and follow the directions.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Kurt Haselwimmer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Problems with getting a wiki site running

body:
Dear All,

I've been trying to set up a mediawiki site for collaborative
scientific instrument development. I have got through the install
procedure, moved the LocalSettings.php file to the www.cmr.uk.com/wiki
directory and then followed the link suggested by web installer (listed
below) only to get the message "no input file specified".

Q - is this a bug or am I being stupid - Do I need to make some content
files before I start -  I had assumed that once wiki had been installed
I could add content purely through the wiki interface.

Any help would be very useful.

Many thanks

Kurt

Dr. Kurt Haselwimmer
Director

-------------------------------------------------------------
Cambridge Magnetic Refrigeration
Britannia House, 19-21 Godesdone Road, Cambridge, CB5 8HR
Tel +44 (0) 1223 473631  Fax +44 (0) 1223 474164
Web www.cmr.uk.com

'Cambridge Magnetic Refrigeration - the new standard'
-------------------------------------------------------------

MediaWiki 1.4.10 installation

Please include all of the lines below when reporting installation
problems.

Checking environment...
	? 	PHP 4.4.0: ok
	? 	Warning: PHP's  register_globals  option is enabled. MediaWiki will
work correctly, but this setting  increases your exposure to potential
security vulnerabilities in PHP-based  software running on your server.
You should disable it if you are able.
	? 	PHP server API is cgi; using ugly URLs (index.php?title=Page_Title)
	? 	Have XML / Latin1-UTF-8 conversion support.
	? 	PHP is configured with no memory_limit.
	? 	Have zlib support; enabling output compression.
	? 	Turck MMCache not installed, can't use object caching functions
	? 	Found ImageMagick: /usr/bin/convert; image thumbnailing will be
enabled if you enable uploads.
	? 	Found GD graphics library built-in.
	? 	Installation directory:
/content/StartupHostPlus/c/m/cmr.uk.com/web/wiki
	? 	Script URI path: /php-cgi/php
	? 	MySQL error 1045: Access denied for user: 'root at cronos' (Using
password: NO)
	? 	Trying regular user...  ok.
	? 	Connected to database... 4.0.24-standard-log; enabling MySQL 4
enhancements
	? 	Database cmrukcomwiki exists
	? 	Creating tables... done.
	? 	Initializing data...
	? 	Created sysop account CMRadmin.
	? 	Initialising "MediaWiki" namespace...
Clearing message cache...Done.

Creating LocalSettings.php...

Success! Move the config/LocalSettings.php file into the parent
directory, then follow  this link to your wiki.


from_name: Worldtraveller

subject:
Good articles - was Re:[WikiEN-l] Article quality deterioration
	(was: a valid criticism)

body:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony DiPierro [mailto:wikispam at inbox.org]
> Sent: 11 October 2005 4:00 AM
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Article quality deterioration (was: a valid
criticism)
>
> I'd rather see a radical expansion of the the featured articles system.
Instead of nominating an article, you'd nominate a version of an
article. The standards would be radically lessened from the current
featured article
> standard, of course. As long as an article was well structured, had
adequate
> references, lacked non-free images, was NPOV, etc., it'd pass. No
requirement that the article actually be one of "the best", just that it
be
> acceptable for a static/semi-static copy (think CD/DVD distro).
>
> Even if an article failed this process, it'd produce a list of what
needed to be fixed.

I've thought for a long time that there should be some way of recognising
the many, many articles that are pretty good but would probably never make
the grade as an FA, due to being too short, too broad, too narrow or
whatever.  99.9% of our articles are not featured, but surely at least 10%
are pretty good, have images, references, are neutral and so on.

However, I think lowering FA standards would be very bad.  We should be
identifying the very best we have to offer, while also identifying the
less spectacular good stuff.  So, I have just started Wikipedia:Good
articles, which is my idea for how our good but not the best content can
be recognised.  All comments welcome of course.

WT


body:
On 10/11/05, Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se> wrote:
>
> GerardM wrote:
>
> > The idea of making it even easier to change pictures would make
> > this situation worse.
>
> If you want to reference a certain version, you should be able to
> reference that version. The same goes for the text of an article.

The best and only way is by not overwriting existing pictures. It is you who
things there is this "need" to change images. It is best to keep "updated"
pictures under a different name.

> *When there is a picture of a painting; changing the colours is
> > BAD. A photo reflects what the picture looks like. Changing the
> > colours arbitrarily because it "looks good" is falsifying what
> > the picture is about.
>
> The same goes for the text of an article. Don't change the facts
> only for the purpose of making the lines rhyme. But if the text
> is wrong or the picture was taken with the wrong exposure, this
> can be corrected afterwards. Images have talk pages, just like
> text articles. Revert vandalism, but allow improvements.
>
> Perhaps a "diff" function for images is the first function we
> need, so versions could be compared against each other.
>
> > The first issue is a big NONO, the second requires a more
> > proactive stance of the foundation and its chapters. But my
> > message to you is NO !! DO NOT CHANGE PICTURES !!
>
> Then you should use a no-derivates (ND) Creative Commons license,
> and/or lock the image from modifications. The same goes for texts.
> I don't see the principal difference. It's a wiki.

Guess what, this "suggestion" of using ND was done to one of the people who
complained about this undiscrimatory urge to change pictures. The result was
that the pictures were deleted as ND licensed material are incompatible with
the accepted licenses.

The problem is that replacing an existing picture with an "improved" picture
is often a bad idea. The claim that pictures could be locked or that a
different license could be used is against Commons policy. In your answer
you do not address any of the concerns that have been raised.

So, I already have the ability (Gimp) to modify an image offline
> and upload a new version, and I'm already encouraging people to do
> this for some images. I'm now looking for examples of how to
> design a web application to make this procedure less complicated
> for the average user.

You may encourage people to change pictures. This is however not something
that is without controversy. It is better to have it a complicated thing to
do than to have even more of the resulting bad blood.

Thanks,
GerardM


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

body:
On 10/11/05, Worldtraveller <wikipedia at world-traveller.org> wrote:
>
>
> However, I think lowering FA standards would be very bad. We should be
> identifying the very best we have to offer, while also identifying the
> less spectacular good stuff. So, I have just started Wikipedia:Good
> articles, which is my idea for how our good but not the best content can
> be recognised. All comments welcome of course.

 Actually, I agree with you there. There really needs to be both, although
perhaps eventually FAC could be step 2 of the process. I would have started
[[Wikipedia:Candidates for 1.0]] myself, except that I'm not allowed.
 Good luck with [[Wikipedia:Good articles]]. I'm not allowed to edit that
page either.

WT

 Anthony


body:
On 10/11/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> OK, now the question *I should have* asked.
>
> How is a moving a marker to designate a preferred version functionally
> *better* than simply reverting to a chosen edit in the article's
> history?

 Sometimes it's useful to have additional "in progress" information in an
article. That new information might not be completely fleshed out and
presented in the perfect way, or maybe it is well presented but just hasn't
been fact-checked by anyone other than the original author. It still is
useful, though.
 Think of it like software development, with a stable and a current branch.
There's bleeding-edge-not-quite-fact-checked Wikipedia and there's
stable-fact-checked Wikipedia. All without forking or protection of pages.
 The trick I think is making "marker movement" a slower process than article
development. That's where I think a process like the FAC process comes into
play.

--
> Michael Turley
> User:Unfocused

 Anthony


from_name: Johannes Ernst

subject: [Wikitech-l] LoggedOut cookie

body:
I'm trying to understand the purpose of the LoggedOut cookie. I have
two problems:

1) The comments state that it is in order to assist with caching /
refreshing the right information. However, the cookie is only set
(well, can only be set) if the user logs out very explicitly by
clicking the log out button. I suspect, many users will not do that,
e.g. by quitting the browser or abandoning the current session,
leaving that cookie absent or holding the wrong value. How useful can
this mechanism be -- but see next question -- if many/most people do
not / will not activate it?

2) Based on looking at the code, I'm not certain that the caching
behavior implemented with the LoggedOut cookie really works. Also, I
don't recall having ever seen a similar mechanism with any other
website. Is there any Wikipedia-specific functionality that can only
be accomplished with this cookie that somehow I don't see?

I'd really appreciate it if somebody in the know could help me here.
Alternatively, can we get rid of it?!?

Johannes Ernst

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: Ant: [Wikipedia-l] Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia - a policy question?

body:
I absolutely agree.  At this stage a merger may be nothing more than an
intellectual ideal.  It could be years before the conditions are right,
if ever.  The most that can be done now is to make the opportunity
available.

Ec

Milos Rancic wrote:

>Just remember that if you want to merge projects, you need to merge
>communities. And differences between communities are not only
>political based. (For example, the main reason why I don't want to
>merge Serbian Wikipedia with Serbo-Croatian is that their community,
>as I see, is too much authoritarian.)
>
>On 10/10/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>For a merger to happen (and all three do  not need to happen at the same
>>time) the participants in the separate projects need to feel that their
>>participation there is a waste of time, and just let that project fade
>>away.   When it is obvious that a project has no participants, and all
>>the contents have been copied into the sh project it can be allowed to
>>fade away.  That will take as long as it needs to take.  Until then it
>>is an individual option to work on the separate or combined projects.
>>
>>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Math rendering in templates

body:
Richard O'Shaughnessy wrote:
> In previous versions of Mediawiki, math was rendered in templates
> properly, so if you included a page with math equations on it, those
> equations would render.
>
> I just uploaded to the present version, 1.4.10, and it appears that  is
> not presently possible.
>
> How can this be fixed?  I'm willing to adjust the source on my local
> machine only, but I use this sort of feature on a daily basis, and  need
> it working again, but I'd rather not go back to the older 1.3  tree (my
> previous instance) to get it...

* Check LocalSettings.php for: $wgUseTeX = true;
* Check math/texvc
* Check permissions on images/math
* Check for presence of latex, dvips, gs, convert
* Create [[Template:Mathtest]] containing <math>\frac{1}{2}</math>
* Create [[Mathtest]] containing {{Mathtest}}

Works ok for me on my 1.4.11 test wiki.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Zephram Stark

subject: [WikiEN-l] Interim Arbcom appointments, Research Officer

body:
>Jimmy Wales wrote:
>> To fill vacancies that have arisen, I am appointing the following
people
>> to the English arbitration committee:
>>
>> Mindspillage (Kat Walsh)
>> and
>> Kelly Martin (karynn in irc)
>>
>> They come highly recommended and will be great. :-)

>Hey Jimbo,

>Could you explain your rationale for appointing the new Arbitration
>Committee members, both now and in July, rather than organising special
>elections as was done when the two original members resigned in July
>2004?

>Chris

It's because he knows I'd win.

Zephram

---------------------------------
 Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.


body:
On 10/11/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
> How is moving a marker functionally any different than simply
> reverting to some selected point in the article's history?

If you have a latest edit (being the version you get when you click
the Edit button) and a marked version (being the version you get when
you visit the article) then you have twice as much opportunity to edit
war.

And twice as much scope for vandalism.


body:
Ilya N. wrote:

>I believe I put a copyright tag on my userpgae image. That, or GFDL-self
>with a note to please not use outside the user namespace.
>
>I, as a 14-year-old, do not want my image spread across anywhere except
>where I put it, and I do believe it's illegal anyways without my permission
>(which nobody else has and which GFDL-self might in essence be forcing me to
>give...)
>
By putting your picture into the wiki you are giving permission.  The
more interesting question is whether an underaged person has the legal
right to enter into any kind of licensing agreement.

Ec


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 11/10/05, Kurt Haselwimmer <Kurt at cmr.uk.com> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I've been trying to set up a mediawiki site for collaborative
> scientific instrument development. I have got through the install
> procedure, moved the LocalSettings.php file to the www.cmr.uk.com/wiki
> directory and then followed the link suggested by web installer (listed
> below) only to get the message "no input file specified".

...

For what it's worth, you'll have more chance of getting a useful
response through mediawiki-l rather than wikien-l - it's the list with
the bulk of the technically knowledgeable people, whereas this is
intended for one project using it.

http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Richard O'Shaughnessy

body:
In previous versions of Mediawiki, math was rendered in templates
properly, so if you included a page with math equations on it, those
equations would render.

I just uploaded to the present version, 1.4.10, and it appears that
is not presently possible.

How can this be fixed?  I'm willing to adjust the source on my local
machine only, but I use this sort of feature on a daily basis, and
need it working again, but I'd rather not go back to the older 1.3
tree (my previous instance) to get it...

-Richard


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Current events

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Sean Barrett wrote:
> Lyndagayle62 at aol.com stated for the record:
>
>
>>Hello,
>>Out of curiosity, I have followed the threads to this one of a last site I
>>will research today
>>
>> What are you? Are you self-appointed? Why is the word "bias" chosen  explain
>>your existence and goal?
>>
>>...
>>
>>No stone thrown.
>>Lyndagayle62
>
>
> I hope you brought enough of those drugs to share.
>

Lawn clippings available at [[Astroturfing]], I think...

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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list: commons-l

subject: [Commons-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Image licenses; a small suggestion

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Andrew Gray wrote:
<snip>
> So, a suggestion. {{project-image}}. "This image is intended for use
> in developing Wikipedia content. Copyright is, unless explicitly
> stated otherwise, owned and retained by the uploader; it is an
> internal working document, not an encyclopedic image, and not intended
> for use in articles. Permission is granted to create derivative works
> under the conditions of this license." (or something in that general
> vein)
>

That might solve the problem of Wikimedia Foundation images being on
Commons; cross-posted to commons-l for dissection...

PS. Original post available at http://ln-s.net/8-u

- --
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body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

GerardM wrote:
> Hoi,
> There is a big problem with people going about changing pictures in Commons.
> People use the license as an excuse to have their "anything goes" attitude
> vindicated. This has already led to a big row with several prominent people
> from the Dutch wikipedia community to have anything to do with Commons.
>
> The idea of making it even easier to change pictures would make this
> situation worse.
>
> There were several issues involved.
>
> *When there is a picture of a painting; changing the colours is BAD. A photo
> reflects what the picture looks like. Changing the colours arbitrarily
> because it "looks good" is falsifying what the picture is about.
> *There is a lot of resistance to websites that use Wikipedia material
> commercially without them making due reference to the original site an
> original author. This resulted in the inclusion of watermarks that were then
> deleted.
>
> The first issue is a big NONO, the second requires a more proactive stance
> of the foundation and its chapters. But my message to you is NO !! DO NOT
> CHANGE PICTURES !!

Well, if you won't let us change a picture, how can you claim that it is
free?

What I think you are talking about is image protection. Drop me a list
on my commons talk page and I'll gladly protect them.

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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list: foundation-l

from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] Interim Arbcom appointments, Research Officer

body:
To fill vacancies that have arisen, I am appointing the following people
to the English arbitration committee:

Mindspillage (Kat Walsh)
and
Kelly Martin (karynn in irc)

They come highly recommended and will be great. :-)

I'm also appointing JamesF as the Chief Research Officer.  He's
fantabulous of course.

In the next few days I will be putting forward a new election process
for the arbcom which I hope will deal, in some small way at least, with
the unpleasantness of last year's process.

--Jimbo


list: wikimedia-l


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

GerardM wrote:
<snip badly quoted mess>
> Hoi,
> First of all I can protect pictures if I want to because I am an admin of
> commons as well. Second it does not help if it is admins who do the
> changing. Third, if you use the fact that a picture is free as an excuse,
> then you do not address the issues raised. The fact that you are allowed to
> use a picture and make changes does not mean that it is good or wise to do
> so. When you want to change a picture, save the revised picture elsewhere
> and do not trouble the world with in your face esthetic notions.
>

I agree. Overwriting existing images with "better" versions (unless it
is eg. a photo taken by the uploader) is BAD.

> The point of a picture being free does not mean that it is good form to
> replace a picture. Yes it is legal, it is also bad manners.
>

I agree. I should have made this a bit clearer in my original reply.

Of course, it would a whole lot easier if image deletion wasn't quite so
instantly permanent...

- --
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from_name: Uwe Brauer

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wikipedia local for testing

body:
   IvanG> Uwe Brauer wrote:
   Jeremy> Is the preview button not sufficient?

   IvanG> He wants a client-side parser.

Right

   IvanG>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pilaf/Live_Preview
thanks for this, however the explanation is not very detailed, do you
know where I can find something about that monobook.js?

Thanks

   IvanG>  http://81.5.150.113/wysi/

   IvanG> Cheers,


from_name: Paul D. Buck

body:
Brion,

Sigh, I have qualifications. Suffice to say I am well aware of what
is needed to trouble shoot problems. I used to write software
professionally. Believe as much of this as you like. Or as little. If
you rummage around you can see where I wrote some PHP code to
implement a Google search, granted based on others work, but, written
reasonably well for all of that. I appreciate your time, more than
you seem to recognize. And, if you DO go back to my original post, I
said the same thing I said in the last post.

Renaming the folder of the WIki installation is the key step you
insist that I have not told you of the process. After that step I
would say I changed the pointer to the folder.

What I HAD been missing, because of its non-contiguous location, and
its "duplication" of information not constructed as all the rest of
the "pointer" variables. But, NOT changing $IP was my mistake, and I
missed the firs suggestion because I was tired. But, changing both
pointers solves the issue.

I regret annoying you, and our miscommunication. And, for my part, a
feeling of frustration, because I assumed, posting to a mailing list
like this, that I did not have to say more than:

I install to a directory named "x"
I renamed the directory
Changed LocalSettings.php (granted I should have identified the exact
change, variable name).

Anyway, problem solved. But, I still think that having two variables,
essentially pointing to the "same" place, not co-located, and not
derived from each other, SHOULD have a note to prevent this ... Well,
I do plan to write this up as I get time as there is a lot of
implicit assumptions in the installation procedures. And they do not
address a clear way to perform an upgrade, particularly when you do
not have direct physical control over the server and all of its sofware.

Again, sorry for the trouble, and I do appreciate your time.

Paul

On Oct 11, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:

> Paul D. Buck wrote:
>
>> Brion,
>>
>> Actually I have said it repeatedly.
>>
>> Make a wiki installation.
>> Make sure it works.
>> Rename the folder containing the Wiki on the server
>> change the $wgScriptPath      from say "/b-w" (original installation)
>> to "/boinc-wiki";
>> try new url, changing only /b-w/index.php to /boinc-wiki/index.php
>>
>> At this point I get a blank page.
>>
>> Nothing hard, so, I am failing to understand why we are not
>> communicating here. Each time you ask, I say I did this.
>>
>
> That's false -- you've said you changed *something* but you have
> failed,
> over and over again, to say *what* you've changed.
>
> If you're going to post to the *software development* mailing list,
> it's
> generally expected that you should have some minimum ability to
> explain
> what you're trying to do, and to be able to provide specific
> information
> when asked for follow-up details.
>
> Above you've finally said which variable you're changing -- thank you
> for that! If the above description is in fact complete, then it's
> clear
> that you are NOT setting the necessary variables, so the include files
> fail to load and a fatal error occurs.
>
> Since you have failed to follow the directions I gave you to enable
> error display or error logging, you're getting blank output instead of
> seeing the error message.
>
> You also didn't bother to read and respond to my last message where I
> told you specifically which variables you have to change:
>
>
>>> At a minimum, if renaming the parent directory you will likely
>>> need to
>>> update the $IP and $wgScriptPath variables in LocalSettings.php.
>>>
>
> Please read the above sentence, and follow the directions.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] leaflets and...

body:
Hello all,

As some of you know, some editors will participate to the WSIS at the
end of the year in Tunis.

It seems relevant that some leaflets are provided in several languages,
about our projects. The 6 official languages of the UNO are English,
French, Spanish, Arabic, Russian and Chinese.
English and French are certainly essential :-) (uh !)
Arabic and Spanich will be useful. And would not it be great to cover
Russian and Chinese as well ? (I am a bit optimistic here).

We already have a couple of these languages, but not all of them.
The languages we have are possibly outdated (most were done early 2005)
so would benefit of a little update of figures at least.

But we definitly need help in SPANISH, ARABIC, CHINESE and RUSSIAN.

So, if you know any of these languages, please consider dropping by
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Leaflet

AND please copy this message in your respective village pumps.

You can help by doing an entirely new leaflet OR just by translating the
text on wiki (and someone else will update that on his computer)

Please HELP

-------

Additionnaly, there is something I have been thinking of, but which
might be a little bit more difficult to do, or controversial.... so I
would like opinion on this, and help if this is supported.

I have been thinking it would maybe make sense to have another type of
leaflet (in english for now) where we could try to rather introduce, not
projects as in current leaflets, but more the concept, and in particular
the concept of freedom of speech, benefits of free information, free
software etc... maybe as well put some stuff about free licences (and a
bit of explanation on which licence we use, and which we do not use, and
why and which implications there is on how people can reuse our
content). And possibly introduce some of the partnerships we are looking
for ?

In short, that is a bit more political than we usually do; but that
might fit the WSIS stuff. It is just using words instead of showing what
we do. So... I might hear just a plain NO, but I would be happy to know
what people think and if that seems feasible and just wise (or unwise).

Anthere


subject: [Foundation-l] leaflets and...


from_name: Kerim Friedman

subject: [Wikitech-l] stuck in preview?

body:
I recently did a fresh install of MediaWiki 1.4.10 on a new server and
I'm importing text from my old install. While it worked fine at first,
it suddenly stopped letting me save edits to pages. Instead I seem to
be stuck in preview! I see I'm not the first person to have this
problem:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MediaWiki_1.5_bugs#Submit_goes_to_Preview_screen_instead>

http://tinyurl.com/8nenq

But I can't figure out if there is any solution. Someone said
something about creating a "sessions" directory, but creating such a
directory in wiki folder didn'ty seem to make a difference.

Any ideas?

My wiki is here:

http://wiki.oxus.net/

Thanks!

kerim


subject: [Wikitech-l] stuck in preview?

body:
Kerim Friedman wrote:
> I recently did a fresh install of MediaWiki 1.4.10 on a new server and
> I'm importing text from my old install. While it worked fine at first,
> it suddenly stopped letting me save edits to pages. Instead I seem to
> be stuck in preview! I see I'm not the first person to have this
> problem:
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MediaWiki_1.5_bugs#Submit_goes_to_Preview_screen_instead>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/8nenq
>
> But I can't figure out if there is any solution. Someone said
> something about creating a "sessions" directory, but creating such a
> directory in wiki folder didn'ty seem to make a difference.

If your hosting provider is using a server farm with multiple hosts, the
default PHP session configuration may be storing data on a local drive
which breaks things.

Try checking the directions for running on Sourceforge, which has a
similar issue:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sourceforge#Sessions

Just making a directory isn't enough; you'll have to configure it, as
described there.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Ilya N.

subject: [WikiEN-l] Image licenses; a small suggestion

body:
not technically, as the tag on the image is 'copyright w/ permission'

and as you say, I don't believe i have the ability to give such a permission
othewise...

(In other words...ugh! Maybe it's too much trouble)

On 10/11/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
> Ilya N. wrote:
>
> >I believe I put a copyright tag on my userpgae image. That, or GFDL-self
> >with a note to please not use outside the user namespace.
> >
> >I, as a 14-year-old, do not want my image spread across anywhere except
> >where I put it, and I do believe it's illegal anyways without my
> permission
> >(which nobody else has and which GFDL-self might in essence be forcing me
> to
> >give...)
> >
> By putting your picture into the wiki you are giving permission. The
> more interesting question is whether an underaged person has the legal
> right to enter into any kind of licensing agreement.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
~Ilya N.


body:
As for now, I think he believes that there's no point to bother when there's
only two months left until the elections. However, July may have been a good
time to hold an 'interim election'

On 10/11/05, Chris Jenkinson <chris at starglade.org> wrote:
>
> Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > To fill vacancies that have arisen, I am appointing the following people
> > to the English arbitration committee:
> >
> > Mindspillage (Kat Walsh)
> > and
> > Kelly Martin (karynn in irc)
> >
> > They come highly recommended and will be great. :-)
>
> Hey Jimbo,
>
> Could you explain your rationale for appointing the new Arbitration
> Committee members, both now and in July, rather than organising special
> elections as was done when the two original members resigned in July 2004?
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
~Ilya N.


from_name: MAURICE FRANK

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism

body:
>Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:21:26 +0100
>From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia and autism
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>Message-ID:
>
<fbad4e140510110121l31c68b1eq6512577b5b8da635 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>Also, check this:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Redwolf24
>
>An RFC written up by Wiki brah concerning Redwolf24.

quote: "For background, Redwolf has been and
administrator since 22 July 2005 (for 2 mos, 3 weeks)
and is Fifteen years old."

You can't believe how interesting this is. Redwolf's
overuse of blocks to serve an agenda is under censure
from 25 just of Wiki's unblocked population who can
sign the page! after just 3 months in office as an
admin! This is the chap who locked my user-page for
the open reason of stopping me putting anything
anti-Wikipedia on it, and how many of you backed the
view "You are not entitled to anything" ?! The list of
names on this RfC page think they are entitled to
anything. You'd better hurry to purge them all from
Wikipedia for that offence, before it spreads.

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: Wikipedia interview with Rich Mullins

body:
I got a note on my talk page, and I just answered it. Here's what I said.

(Angela, if you would like me in the pool for UK interviews, feel free
to send 'em my email and I might even send you my mobile number -
though I almost never answer it by day and it goes to message.)

- d.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
Date: Oct 11, 2005 11:36 PM
Subject: Wikipedia interview
To: rmullins at tampatrib.com

Hi Richard - I got your note on my talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&diff=25298301&oldid=25256605

Assuming this was actually you ;-) then I'd be most happy to do an interview :-)

Time for a phone or instant-message interview is a tricky one if
you're in a hurry, but I can do email very conveniently.

I see you left a pile of notes on article talk pages wanting to talk
to people who wrote the articles - possibly a quicker way would be to
look through the history (which lists all revisions to an article
ever, though you may have to go back several pages through busy ones
;-) and then put notes on their talk pages, if they're still around.

And now, to answer your questions:

"I'd love to hear what interested you about Wikipedia."

I first started using it in December 2003. I'd heard about it, seen it
come up in Google searches sometimes and had mild curiosity about it.
Then my wife said to have a look at it ... and I started editing. (I
just asked her and she says I drew her into it! She's
[[User:Redcountess]])

"I'd love to know how often you work on entries and what your
particular area of interest is."

I've edited *all manner* of things. I've been working heavily on
Scientology-related articles of late - I am apparently what passes for
an expert (I have a website at http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/scn/ ) and
wrote about half the article on [[Xenu]] - the one that's quoted
directly in just about EVERY article on Tom Cruise in the past few
months. Which I'm very pleased by! (And we have a new one, [[Space
opera in Scientology doctrine]], which is even better.) I also write
about Australian indie rock bands (another specialist area of mine),
computer and technical topics, anything else I notice needs an article
...

I also use Wikipedia as a reference, particularly in technical or
computer areas - it's actually a reliable encyclopedia in these areas
in my experience. And I'll edit anything that needs a bit of a
copyedit or clearer writing. It's very nice being able to fix simple
errors.

"Also, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the accuracy of the system
and what you think of errors added to the entries."

People adding errors to "test" the system are a pain in the backside.
See [[Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point]].
Anyone can do it, and anyone can take a dump in public; it doesn't
make it a good or decent idea.

As for the general accuracy ... in technical areas, it's good enough
to actually use. I understand it's that good in mathematics. I'm sure
there are other areas I don't know of where it's that good. I
understand we're the world's best Pokemon resource ;-) There are many
areas we don't cover as well as we'd like to, but we're trying to be
aware of this.

There's always going to be a certain percentage of articles that are
great, some that are okay and some that are very sketchy and have
"Under Construction" signs on them. The encyclopedia's expanding all
the time, so the numbers for each of these percentages will always
increase. We're working on article rating systems to try to make it
easier for people to find the good stuff without hampering the works
in progress or the process of making them.

If you have other questions, please do email me. If you really want to
do a phoner, my phone number is +44 xxxx xxx xxx - time here is
presently BST, which is GMT +1. If my phone goes to message, please
leave a message!

- thanks, David.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fwd: Wikipedia interview with Rich Mullins


from_name: Chris Jenkinson

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> To fill vacancies that have arisen, I am appointing the following people
> to the English arbitration committee:
>
> Mindspillage (Kat Walsh)
> and
> Kelly Martin (karynn in irc)
>
> They come highly recommended and will be great. :-)

Hey Jimbo,

Could you explain your rationale for appointing the new Arbitration
Committee members, both now and in July, rather than organising special
elections as was done when the two original members resigned in July 2004?

Chris


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Foundation-l] New project : movies.mediawiki.org?

body:
Hi Magnus,

as for a general repository you could already use commons for it
creating .ogg thora files. I did it myself and it is quite easy to do
that. But it seems that there is one difficulty: the high resolution. I
was not able to create high resolution .ogg files and other formats
cannot be uploaded to commons.

As for free web TV there is one that already has over 3100
films/documentaries/interviews etc. online
http://www.arcoiris.tv

The website at this moment is online only in Italian, Spanish and
Portuguese (a translation into other languages would not be too
difficult)  - contents are available in Italian, Spanish, Portuguese,
English, French, German (only one), international (without words). Of
course most films are in Italian (over 3000). It is an online tv without
advertising in the films and withour censorship. I know for sure that
they are actively searching for further contents and they are going the
gfdl way where possible. Of course the films on their website have
different licenses and copyright.

So basically WikiVideo would have the same problem like commons: it
should use .ogg theora and therefore the resolution would not be the
highest - so commons could also be used (??).

Wouldn't it make sense to go both ways? On one hand the .ogg theora
repository (on commons) and on the other a free web TV that would not
have problems to use for example mpeg files?

As for program guides etc. there is a website of all available web tvs
around - I just cannot find the link - if wished I can pass you this
link (just need to search a bit).

I would like to keep this discussion not influenced by who is who
questions - so I for now will not describe who arcoiris.tv belongs to. I
would like to know your objective opinion about co-operating with such
an organisation.

Thank you and have a great evening/good night (depending on where you
live :-)

Ciao, Sabine

Magnus Manske wrote:

>I am currently writing an application to manage my movie collection, and
>looked around for online sources I can use to aid me in entering movie
>information. I found amazon, which has a nice SOAP interface to their
>DVD section. Then I looked at IMDB, which AFAIK is owned by amazon as
>well, only to discover that they
>* charge for database access /starting at $10000/
>* explicly forbid HTML scraping
>
>I remembered Jimbos 10-point-speech at Wikimaina. "Free the TV
>programs"? Maybe we should free the movie information as well.
>
>A wiki site based on WikiData (how's it going, BTW?;-) would be ideal to
>do this. It would
>* provide information for all the wikipedias
>* provide information for the fre TV program listings :-)
>* prove information for applications like the one I'm working on
>
>For such a service, I would volunteer to integrate an upload function
>into my software, making it possible to gather/write movie information
>within the software and then upload it to WikiVideos (tm).
>
>
>So, how about it? Or is there some large, free (in both ways) online
>database that I've missed?
>
>Magnus
>
>

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Jakob Voss

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Namespace

body:
John Anthony Hartman wrote:

> For example, within the "Foo" namespace, I have an article named "Bar", so
> its address is "Foo:Bar", and typically you'd link to it by typing
> "[[Foo:Bar]]".  But if I am linking from "Bar" to "Baz", which is also in
> the "Foo" namespace, then I would like to type just "[[Baz]]", not
> "[[Foo:Baz]]".  Is that possible?

As far as I know this is a feature of upcoming Wikidata (making it one
step more complicated to interprete Wiki-syntax without a full
MediaWiki-installation by the way).

Greetings,
Jakob


from_name: Christopher E. Granade

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Namespace

body:
John Anthony Hartman wrote:
> I was wondering if it is possible to throw a switch for a given namespace
> and make unprefixed links within that namespace point to that namespace?
>
>
>
> For example, within the "Foo" namespace, I have an article named "Bar", so
> its address is "Foo:Bar", and typically you'd link to it by typing
> "[[Foo:Bar]]".  But if I am linking from "Bar" to "Baz", which is also in
> the "Foo" namespace, then I would like to type just "[[Baz]]", not
> "[[Foo:Baz]]".  Is that possible?
>

Problem would be twofold:
1) The move page functionality would need some patching to change the
namespace references. Would probably need a "move entire namespace"
function to be added.
2) How would you decide between Foo:Baz and Baz (global namespace)?
Anyway, upon solving that, seems like a good idea. Perhaps use a
reference like [[:Bar]]?
--Chris

>  ___________________________________________________
> John Anthony Hartman
> website: http://www.websage.org
> podcast: Multi-Media Me- http://pmo.websage.org
>  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. "
> --Arthur C. Clarke


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia and autism

body:
I think it's a dangerous and foolhardy endeavor to single out autistic
contributors for special treatement - which
is, after all, what most of this discussion about autism entails.

Psychologists - trained professionals - are ethically prohibited from
making such diagnoses without meeting a
patient in person. So, rather, now our admins are supposed to do what
even trained professionals will not.

Furthermore, it's inherently bad policy to treat one particular group
different than others (different, for better or for
worse). Not only is it insulting and likely to cause far more problems
than it would actually, but it is guarenteed to
be riddled with errors (statistical type I and type II).

This idea needs to go into the "circular file" post haste.

-Mark


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

body:
> To fill vacancies that have arisen, I am appointing the
> following people to the English arbitration committee:
>
> Mindspillage (Kat Walsh)
> and
> Kelly Martin (karynn in irc)
>
> They come highly recommended and will be great. :-)
>
[snip]
>
> In the next few days I will be putting forward a new election
> process for the arbcom which I hope will deal, in some small
> way at least, with the unpleasantness of last year's process.
>
> --Jimbo

I know Mindspillage and karynn from IRC. They both have excellent
judgment and have the rare gift of being able to "disagree without being
disagreeable". That is, I do not judge people by how much they agree
with *me* but by how dedicated they are to the project, the process and
the people. You couldn't ask for better folks than these two.

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia and autism

body:
Mark wrote:

> I think it's a dangerous and foolhardy endeavor to single out
> autistic
> contributors for special treatment - which
> is, after all, what most of this discussion about autism entails.
>
> Psychologists - trained professionals - are ethically prohibited from
> making such diagnoses without meeting a
> patient in person. So, rather, now our admins are supposed to do what
> even trained professionals will not.
>
> Furthermore, it's inherently bad policy to treat one particular group
> different than others (different, for better or for
> worse). Not only is it insulting and likely to cause far more
> problems
> than it would actually, but it is guaranteed to
> be riddled with errors (statistical type I and type II).

I agree with all the above and suggest that
people have been using the words "autistic" and
"autism" loosely. (To pick a popular example
from politics, a certain school of thought has
taken to labeling George W. Bush "an idiot" -
although they do not _literally_ mean that his
I.Q. is below that of a moron or imbecile: they
merely oppose his policies. They probably mean
that they regard his _policies_ as "stupid". You
might be able to graduate from university with a
90 or 100 I.Q., but an [[idiot]] literally would
be unable to find his way home from class.)

What's tolerable in the political field is not
good to bring to discussions of Wikipedia
contributors. Bush is fair game: we can all say
what we want about him. Our fellow contributors
should not be targets. We should not apply
hurtful labels to them (see [[Wikipedia:Avoid
personal remarks]] and maybe even [[Wikipedia:No
personal attacks]]).

It's easy and common to "diagnose" a schoolchild
or other person with ADD or autism, simply
because they don't "listen" or "behave". Label
them, pigeon-hole them, forget about really
helping them.

We should simply make it possible for those with
poorly developed social skills to contribute to
Wikipedia, but not by relaxing our standards of
civility. If someone _declares_ that they are
somewhat autistic (or senile, or have
Asperger's) that's fine. Cut them a little more
slack, along the lines of "Be nice to the
newbies.") Like we all probably have a friend
who has a short temper, says things they regret,
but always comes back and says sorry and does
substantial things to set it right. (If they're
not a bully, but a genuine friend - we all know
the difference, I assume.)

If they can make it, all well and good. They
don't need special treatment here. If they
simply cannot conform to civility or 3RR or NPOV
(like Gabriel Simon, whom I tried to help), then
we may have to shut the door on them - the same
as any other policy evader.

We can sympathize more, of course, but we need
to maintain one standard for all.

Uncle Ed


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia and autism

body:
It is easy to go beyond protecting Wikipedia into a punishment mode,
ignoring obvious difficulties a user may be having. Specific accurate
diagnoses are inappropriate, but sympathetic treatment is appropriate.

Fred

On Oct 12, 2005, at 4:16 AM, Tony Sidaway wrote:

> On 10/12/05, Mark Pellegrini <mapellegrini at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I think it's a dangerous and foolhardy endeavor to single out
>> autistic
>> contributors for special treatement - which
>> is, after all, what most of this discussion about autism entails.
>>
>
> Not really.  Just not gangbanging new editors in the manner that
> Maoririder and Wiki brah have been.
>
> They're obviously different in some way, we could say they're
> "Martian" or "Weird" if that makes you feel better.
>
> They've both produced good work from day one, but they were both
> pillored and blocked for utterly petty reasons very early on in their
> editing.
>
> Is this the kind of community Wikipedia should be?  I thought we were
> better than that, or had aspirations to be.  Why are we alienating
> good editors?
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Michael Turley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia and autism

body:
On 10/12/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> we should be nicer in general, who cares what postulated disability
> other editors might have.

I very infrequently "me too", but this is well worth repeating.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


subject: [Wikitech-l] stuck in preview?

body:
Brion,

Thanks. Unfortunately, however, that doesn't seem to solve the
problem. I checked, and I believe I did everything write because
inside my sessions folder are now files like:

"sess_o9222qk4vn56hfpfa15gscm2c3"

So I think sessions are being saved correctly. However, I still have
the same problem. I can't save pages... Any other ideas what might be
wrong?

This is frustrating because I did a fresh install of the software. I
made one minor change to the Monobook skin (to use a wiki page for the
navigation) and thats it. I even tried reverting back to the original
skin and that didn't help. The only other change is a .htaccess file
to redirect urls without the /wiki/ path that I now use, but disabling
the .htaccess doesn't help either. (And yes, I did a purge command
after each of these changes, as well as emptying my Firefox cache,
just to be sure.)

Kerim

On 10/12/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Kerim Friedman wrote:
> > I recently did a fresh install of MediaWiki 1.4.10 on a new server and
> > I'm importing text from my old install. While it worked fine at first,
> > it suddenly stopped letting me save edits to pages. Instead I seem to
> > be stuck in preview! I see I'm not the first person to have this
> > problem:
> >
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MediaWiki_1.5_bugs#Submit_goes_to_Preview_screen_instead>
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/8nenq
> >
> > But I can't figure out if there is any solution. Someone said
> > something about creating a "sessions" directory, but creating such a
> > directory in wiki folder didn'ty seem to make a difference.
>
> If your hosting provider is using a server farm with multiple hosts, the
> default PHP session configuration may be storing data on a local drive
> which breaks things.
>
> Try checking the directions for running on Sourceforge, which has a
> similar issue:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sourceforge#Sessions
>
> Just making a directory isn't enough; you'll have to configure it, as
> described there.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>

--
_______________________________________
P. KERIM FRIEDMAN
http://kerim.oxus.net

DO NOT hit "reply" to send me personal messages!
This address is for BULK mail only.
My private address is: kerim (dot) my last name (at) oxus (dot) net.
_______________________________________


subject: [Wikitech-l] stuck in preview?

body:
OK. I just tried in Safari and it worked. So it must be something
about my Firefox install, not my server. I'm using 1.5b2

Kerim

On 10/12/05, Kerim Friedman <oxusnet at gmail.com> wrote:
> Brion,
>
> Thanks. Unfortunately, however, that doesn't seem to solve the
> problem. I checked, and I believe I did everything write because
> inside my sessions folder are now files like:
>
> "sess_o9222qk4vn56hfpfa15gscm2c3"
>
> So I think sessions are being saved correctly. However, I still have
> the same problem. I can't save pages... Any other ideas what might be
> wrong?
>
> This is frustrating because I did a fresh install of the software. I
> made one minor change to the Monobook skin (to use a wiki page for the
> navigation) and thats it. I even tried reverting back to the original
> skin and that didn't help. The only other change is a .htaccess file
> to redirect urls without the /wiki/ path that I now use, but disabling
> the .htaccess doesn't help either. (And yes, I did a purge command
> after each of these changes, as well as emptying my Firefox cache,
> just to be sure.)
>
> Kerim
>
> On 10/12/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> > Kerim Friedman wrote:
> > > I recently did a fresh install of MediaWiki 1.4.10 on a new server and
> > > I'm importing text from my old install. While it worked fine at first,
> > > it suddenly stopped letting me save edits to pages. Instead I seem to
> > > be stuck in preview! I see I'm not the first person to have this
> > > problem:
> > >
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MediaWiki_1.5_bugs#Submit_goes_to_Preview_screen_instead>
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/8nenq
> > >
> > > But I can't figure out if there is any solution. Someone said
> > > something about creating a "sessions" directory, but creating such a
> > > directory in wiki folder didn'ty seem to make a difference.
> >
> > If your hosting provider is using a server farm with multiple hosts, the
> > default PHP session configuration may be storing data on a local drive
> > which breaks things.
> >
> > Try checking the directions for running on Sourceforge, which has a
> > similar issue:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sourceforge#Sessions
> >
> > Just making a directory isn't enough; you'll have to configure it, as
> > described there.
> >
> > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________
> P. KERIM FRIEDMAN
> http://kerim.oxus.net
>
> DO NOT hit "reply" to send me personal messages!
> This address is for BULK mail only.
> My private address is: kerim (dot) my last name (at) oxus (dot) net.
> _______________________________________
>

--
_______________________________________
P. KERIM FRIEDMAN
http://kerim.oxus.net

DO NOT hit "reply" to send me personal messages!
This address is for BULK mail only.
My private address is: kerim (dot) my last name (at) oxus (dot) net.
_______________________________________


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

body:
On 10/11/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
> By putting your picture into the wiki you are giving permission. The
> more interesting question is whether an underaged person has the legal
> right to enter into any kind of licensing agreement.

 You are arguably giving permission under the GFDL, although even that could
be disputed if you claim you didn't notice the contract/waiver when you made
the submission. On top of this, Wikipedia doesn't actually follow the GFDL.
They roughly follow the spirit of the GFDL, but there are quite a few
significant pieces that are missing. Since the GFDL is automatically revoked
whenever you break it, if you're going to rely on the argument that the
image is released under the GFDL then Wikimedia probably has no permission
to distribute any of the images at all.
 It'd be a much easier case from a legal standpoint to claim that by
contributing to an article you are contributing to a joint work, under a
joint authorship agreement which licenses the content to all third parties
under the terms of the GFDL and under Wikipedia's rough approximation of the
GFDL.
 The truth is, for now, no one really knows the true copyright status of
Wikipedia from a legal standpoint.

Ec

 Anthony


from_name: Andrew Lih

body:
I've summarized the issues of a simple marker-based system on this
Meta page. Please feel free to edit/add/comment.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Article_marker_feature

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On 10/12/05, Anthony DiPierro <wikispam at inbox.org> wrote:
> On 10/11/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > OK, now the question *I should have* asked.
> >
> > How is a moving a marker to designate a preferred version functionally
> > *better* than simply reverting to a chosen edit in the article's
> > history?
>
>  Sometimes it's useful to have additional "in progress" information in an
> article. That new information might not be completely fleshed out and
> presented in the perfect way, or maybe it is well presented but just hasn't
> been fact-checked by anyone other than the original author. It still is
> useful, though.
>  Think of it like software development, with a stable and a current branch.
> There's bleeding-edge-not-quite-fact-checked Wikipedia and there's
> stable-fact-checked Wikipedia. All without forking or protection of pages.
>  The trick I think is making "marker movement" a slower process than article
> development. That's where I think a process like the FAC process comes into
> play.
>
> --
> > Michael Turley
> > User:Unfocused
>
>  Anthony
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Maurice Joseph

subject: [Wikitech-l] stuck in preview?

body:
Hi Kerim;

In the past, I have encountered this problem when the PHP sessions directory
was not accessible.

Check the php.ini file (session.save_path parameter) for the directory setting
or php error log file to see what directory is not writable. Create this
directory, making sure it is writable by the web server process.

Maurice Joseph
SpikeSource, Inc.
developer.spikesource.com

> Kerim Friedman wrote:
>
> If your hosting provider is using a server farm with multiple hosts, the
> default PHP session configuration may be storing data on a local drive
> which breaks things.
>
> Try checking the directions for running on Sourceforge, which has a
> similar issue:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sourceforge#Sessions
>
> Just making a directory isn't enough; you'll have to configure it, as
> described there.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Meanwhile, AfD grinds on

body:
I just came across this AfD when a link to the deleted article was
removed from another I had watchlisted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Jar

I never read the webcomic The Jar myself, but I know that it existed and
was popular, and also that when Kittyhawk moved on to other projects the
webcomic's archive was taken offline. The nominator saw the resulting
lack of Google results and nominated it solely on account of "none
notability." As a result of this grand consensus of four voters, three
of whom explained their vote with "nn" and one with "as per nom",
Wikipedia will forever more lack an article on this topic. Kind of a
pity since I've always been curious about what I missed - I've been told
that it had a better plot than Kittyhawk's current strip, which survived
a VfD last year.

There were tons of great ideas being kicked around on this mailing list
a few weeks back for how to change the deletion process, either as a
short-term experiment or long-term reform, has it all quietly passed
from everyone's radars now? Or is there some other forum the discussion
moved to that I missed?


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia and autism

body:
"MAURICE FRANK" <megaknee at btopenworld.com> wrote in
message news:20051011223900.19350.qmail at web86201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com...
> > David Gerard wrote:
> > Also, check this:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Redwolf24
> > An RFC written up by Wiki brah concerning Redwolf24.

> quote: "For background, Redwolf has been and
> administrator since 22 July 2005 (for 2 mos, 3 weeks)
> and is Fifteen years old."

> You can't believe how interesting this is. Redwolf's
> overuse of blocks to serve an agenda is under censure
> from 25 just of Wiki's unblocked population who can
> sign the page! after just 3 months in office as an
> admin! This is the chap who locked my user-page for
> the open reason of stopping me putting anything
> anti-Wikipedia on it, and how many of you backed the
> view "You are not entitled to anything" ?! The list of
> names on this RfC page think they are entitled to
> anything. You'd better hurry to purge them all from
> Wikipedia for that offence, before it spreads.

Are we reading the same RFC?

The only agenda obvious here, buddy, is your own. There are two "outside
view" sections on that RFC, both of which condemn the RFC as invalid,
endorsed by 33 and 14 users respectively as of right now.

One user suggests that Redwolf might have explained his actions more
clearly. Another claims to have previously argued against blocking
[[user:Wiki brah]] which does not quite fit in with his "outside view" on
the latter's own RFC.

Not really seeing the support for you point of view, here...
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia and autism

body:
>From: Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com>
>
>On 10/12/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> >
> > We can sympathize more, of course, but we need
> > to maintain one standard for all.
> >
>
>What worries me here is that we patently *don't*.  Should we ever
>block an editor who's clearly demonstrating good faith, is not
>violating any policy of Wikipedia, but isn't complying absolutely 100%
>with all the guidelines?  Of course not, you say, that's absurd, we'd
>never do such a thing.
>
>But this is precisely what was done to Maoririder twice within one
>week of his arriving here.
>
>
>Why does it happen?  What unacknowledged bit of vindictiveness
>existing in the human spirit enabled this to be done by people who
>told themselves that they were doing so for the best of motives?

It all depends on how disruptive their activities are.  To begin with, "good
faith" is necessary, but certainly not sufficient.  To make the point in an
extreme way, suicide bombers also carry out their acts in "good faith".
Moreover, Wikipedia is a community, and behaviour that veers too far from
accepted norms will have a strong negative impact on other community
members.  If the overall net impact of an editor's activities are
significantly negative, then this must be ameliorated in some way.  The
kinds of behaviours that Maoririder was exhibiting may not seem serious to
you; to others, they may seem far more detrimental than, for example,
reverting articles (which is also not violating any Wikipedia policies),
something you have repeatedly stated is absolutely unacceptable to you.

Jay.


from_name: Amruta Lonkar

subject: [Wikitech-l] calling an external  page from a tollbar button click

body:
Hi All,

I have added a button in the edit page tollbar for adding references. Now am
stuck on how i can call a page external to the wiki when a user clicks on
that button.

Also i have not been able to locate where the tip text and sampel text for
these buttons is stored whihc the user can see on moving the mouse pointer on
them.

Any help appreciated!
Thanks,
--
Amruta


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The curse of Jack Sarfatti?

body:
> Be assured that you are not the only one receiving unpleasant
> mails from
> Sarfatti...
>
> Please, avoid doing anything which could make us liable of
> anything, and
> as Jimbo recommended just today "Let's please all review the
> page about
> him at Wikipedia to make sure that it does not contain "vicious lies,
> smears, slander and libel". Of course, we should do this with
> absolutely
> anyone... but here is a case when it is particularly important ;-)
>
> Thanks
>
> Ant

I spoke by telephone to Jack Sarfatti twice today and have been talking
with Phroziac by instant message. Here is the extent of my
interventions, for community review:

1. I unblocked his [[user:JackSarfatti]] account.
2. I unblocked the [[Jack Sarfatti]] article.
3. I tried (twice) to tone done the anti-Sarfatti rhetoric there, but
have given up for the day.
4. I marked up with HTML strikeout the message on Jack's user talk page
which threatened legal action against Wikipedia; he told me over the
phone that I could delete it.
5. I suggested to Jack that he confine his wiki activity to the
[[talk:Jack Sarfatti]] page - rather than trying to edit the article
directly.

He is a newbie. He does not know the rules. He didn't know that users
aren't allowed to delete other users' talk page comments, for example.

This sort of thing is going to happen more and more, now that Wikipedia
is the 45th most popular web site (and has 750,000 articles in the
English edition). Let's treat the public right.

Uncle Ed