from_name: james duffy

body:
> > There has to be a way for people to redeem themselves.  For Lir, leaving
> > aside the multiple incarnation issue, the multiple small edit issue, may
> > be an editing style that annoys some people, but looked at alone I would
> > not consider it a banning offence.  What are his other '''recent'''
> > offences?
> >
> > Ec
>
>He knows he is banned yet is trying to be here with another phony user
>name.
>He was not patient enough to wait til ban was legitimately lifted.
>(Assuming
>it is Lir).
>
>Fred
>
Fred is quite correct. Remember this is a user who has been hard banned
numerous times. They approached Jimbo and PROMISED that they would not come
on under an assumed identity again. They gave their word. In the
circumstances, they could have got Jimbo's agreement to come on again as
themselves. They could have waited for the specified period then come back.
But they instead went back on their word (yet again) and came on as an
assumed identity, in the process giving the two fingers to Jimbo and the
wiki rules on banning. As to Adam not committing offences - it isn't for the
want of trying. One of Adam/Lir/Vera Cruz/Susan Mason/Dietary Fiber/Shino
Baku etc's standard 'games' has been to provoke rows. One particular stunt
they used to pull was to enter a page where an edit war had been taking
place and just as peace was breaking out say or do something that would
re-ignite it. I have seen 'Pizza Puzzle' try that once so far. (Luckily the
people in question from past experience knew the 'game' and wouldn't play!)

PP placed bizarre messages on talk pages (I got one that said ''Adam
[name omitted for privacy reasons] is a troll'), in a attempt to provoke a reaction. Knowing Adam's
'game' I ignored it.) When that failed a provocative message was left on
PP's user page by PP, proclaiming how they were a troll, again to see could
they start a row. By then people had pretty much worked out PP's identity
and after some emails and AIM messages (used so that Adam could not read
them, which he would do if they were on talk pages) decided to ignore his
latest bit of 'look at me. I'm a troll. Wanna fight?' antics.

So he tried another tried and trusted method. He voted then 'unvoted' on the
dates vote page, in the hope that (as happened when he was 'Susan Mason')
someone would react with a 'what the fuck do you think you are doing'
response; he could then assume victim mode and get a few newbies to rush to
his defence and turn the page into a nasty fight. But only one person
challenged him on that, so that fizzled out.

Next try - remove someone's vote. So far that hasn't resulted in a major row
of the sort that Adam as Lir, Vera and Susan seemed to love starting.

All of which poses the question: so what is next? What stunt with Adam try
next to stir up a row? Going by past experience he will keep trying. Rows
are the one thing Adam in all his identities has  contributed to wiki. He
seems to get a kick out of starting them off.

If wiki is to thrive as an encyclop?dia, it needs to be able to deal with
the likes of Adam (now back on when he shouldn't be), Michael (though banned
numerous times still coming on daily to vandalise pages) and Ron (aka DW,
Black Widow, Elliot, Jacques Delson, 64.228.30.125, Joe Canuck and now
ChuckM). Ron has been on almost continually, not withstanding constant
hardbans since August 2002. Indeed Ron's contempt for wiki can be seen in
the fact that he often has two 'identities' in use at once, an IP for
editing and a named page for insulting. The fact that ChuckM, which he
created on the 10th of June could suddenly be brought back on the 22nd,
after his previous identity Joe Canuck was banned on the 20th shows his
contempt for wiki - one of his first acts was to remove the ban notice from
Canuck's page, then insult MyRedDice and accuse Wapcaplet, then remove a
note from me on the VfD page urging a quick deletion of Canuck's dodgy
images.

Our 'softly softly . . . maybe they might change' nonsense is not working.
Michael still defaces articles. Ron still downloads dodgy images and Adam
swans back giving Jimbo two fingers again and again and again. As a
hardbanned user, there should be no need for a debate. The rules said
explicitly that Adam should be banned immediately. Whether he writes good
articles is irrelevant. He has no right to be here and as someone who can't
even be bothered to keep his promises to Jimbo, we owe it to ourselves,
Jimbo and Wiki to ban him as soon as possible, as often as needs be. So that
Adam, Ron, Michael and everyone else gets the clear unambiguous message
'wiki is a troll-free zone. All trolls will be barred on sight.', rather
than our current message ' em . . . we'll talk about it and talk about it,
and then talk about it a bit more. And when you are finally banned and come
back, we'll do a lot more talking, not acting. So you have nothing to worry
about.'

JT

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list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia (silently) slashdotted

body:
Daniel-

> Well, that's probably only because e2 has many more
> articles.

Actually, it's because Everything2 started out as a project by one of Rob
Malda's friends and even resided at everything.slashdot.org (at that time
it was just called "Everything"). It is now independent, but unfortunately
has never been able to scale. And the few really good articles that are
there are copyrighted by their authors. Pity.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Intention to (re-)ban: Pizza Puzzle (Lir)

body:
James-

one problem in enforcing bans is that we have to be *sure* that the person
is the same one as the previously banned one. In Adam's case this is quite
obvious, but people have been defending each of his incaranations, so it
doesn't surprise me that the current one is defended as well. I'm not sure
ChuckM is really DW, though. The long rant he put on [[Wikipedia:Votes for
deletion]] did not sound like something DW would write. Which doesn't mean
that you aren't right, of course, just that I wouldn't ban ChuckM on the
basis of the evidence.

Because we have literally no identity requirement before signing up as a
new user, it will always be easy for people to come back under new names.
Previously we at least had an email field that many people believed was
required for signing up. So many banned users added their old email
address, nice! Then someone complained, and now it explicitly states that
you don't need an email address.

There are several technical solutions that have been discussed for making
bans work better. I think the following ones are pretty good:

1) Log the IP address the user signed up with and allow sysops to view it.
That makes comparisons possible and narrows down the identity. It also
allows banning in case of emergencies.

2) Place a "bad cookie" on their machine that allows us to identify them,
if they do not notice and remove it. (Most users just accept all cookies
without checking.)

3) Require a valid email address before signup, e.g. by sending a new user
the password by email. No valid address -- no password. Some say email
addresses are just as easy to create as user accounts here. I do not
agree. Setting up a Hotmail account is quite a PITA, for example, and most
people don't know many freemail account providers. It has certainly worked
for Kuro5hin.

Regards,

Erik


list: textbook-l

from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] textbook subdomain timetable

body:
Hey Brion,

Are you the person who will do the grunt work to open up
the http://textbook.wikipedia.org subdomain ? If so, do you
have an idea of when we could expect it ?

Thank you,
Karl

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subject: [WikiEN-l] unified Wiki-world search

body:
If we could get a unified search going across the
Wikipedia, Wiktionary, wiki textbook site and any other
wiki projects, that will put our efforts way ahead of
anything else that I have seen out there on the web. Search
a dictionary, encyclopedia and textbooks all at the same
time ? That would be awesome ! What ? And its free ? That
should help push adoption of use of the sites .. And some
users later become contributers.

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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikitech-l] some new CSS styles for images

body:
On 23 Jun 2003 17:39:00 +0200, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> gave
utterance to the following:

> tarquin-
>> I'd like to add some CSS classes to our stylesheets, based on the
>> popular image layouts listed on this page:
>> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AImage_markup_gallery
>
>
>> For example, instead of this:
>> ------------
>>
[[Image:image name|alt
>> text]]
>
>> ''Caption''

>> ------------
>
>> we could write this:
>
>> ---------------
>>
[[Image:image name|alt text]]
>
> Then would you have to write
>
>

>
> to get the pixel width? This is important for preventing the caption from
>
> expanding the floating framge.

You would indeed, because any browsers which follow CSS1 or CSS2 rather
than CSS2.1 (the latter was only formalized in February this year) ought to
render a floated div of unspecified width as 100% wide rather than "shrink-
wrapping" it. If you float the image directly it will shrink-wrap, but then
there is no way to include the caption.

Do we have a database table of image details? If do, this ought to contain
height and width information, which would allow php to automatically insert
the width as it writes the image statement. (You would probably need to
write a perl script robot to work its way through the current image stock
generating such a table, and then modify the upload script to keep it up to
date for new images.)

 What's with the 0 0 1em
> 1em anyway? margin:10px works fine.

That means Top and Right margins of zero, bottom and left of 1x the user's
line-height. A lack of right margin is more efficient and looks better
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
Richard Grevers
I'm easy to please as long as I get my way


body:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:20:29 +0200, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de>
gave utterance to the following:

> Erik Moeller wrote:
>> tarquin-
>>> write shorter captions?
>>
>> Hardly an option, since you don't even know how wide it can be, and
>> results are going to vary under different configurations. Sorry, I would
>>
>> suggest not to use the CSS at this time. I do encourage you to work on a
>>
>> redesign of the image handling code, though.
>
> How about "width=1"? Works for tables (the table gets resized by the
> image). Is this true for <div> as well?
>
No - that ought to cause overlap of article text and image, as the image
overflows its container.
(assuming you mean width:1px - the = is html rather than css, and units are
mandatory for valid css on nonzero values.

--
Richard Grevers
I'm easy to please as long as I get my way


subject: [Textbook-l] ideas

body:
On the English mailing list it was suggested that we would
be developing static textbooks from dynamic Wikipedia
resources. I'd like to talk about that because I dont think
that is how it will be ...

I see the textbooks growing the same way WP grows .. first
to get the basic information in there and then to modify
that information to make it easier to understand and to
include the changes and advancements in each field. Then,
multiple textbooks could arise on one subject but with
different goals or target audiences.

The textbooks will be able to use some WP material but
probably in modified form to suit the different goals. Plus
the textbooks will need lots of original material that was
not at home in the encyclopedia format and/or has not yet
been developed.

A couple of goals:

I think that we will see our first adoption by students who
are looking for quick free information. In time, my hope is
that we will have materials so good that they will be used
officially in schools to accompany and then replace
traditional textbook materials.

This site should be the center on the WWW for collaborative
textbook development. I have seen some scattered efforts to
do free textbooks out there but none (but --April's) using
a wiki. I think if we give them a place and make it
friendly that people will use it and our site will grow to
be the standard setter. So lets make it friendly to
teachers and other people who can be power contributers.

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from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [Textbook-l] ideas

body:
--- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On the English mailing list it was suggested that we
> would
> be developing static textbooks from dynamic
> Wikipedia
> resources. I'd like to talk about that because I
> dont think
> that is how it will be ...
>
> I see the textbooks growing the same way WP grows ..
> first
> to get the basic information in there and then to
> modify
> that information to make it easier to understand and
> to
> include the changes and advancements in each field.
> Then,
> multiple textbooks could arise on one subject but
> with
> different goals or target audiences.
>
> The textbooks will be able to use some WP material
> but
> probably in modified form to suit the different
> goals. Plus
> the textbooks will need lots of original material
> that was
> not at home in the encyclopedia format and/or has
> not yet
> been developed.
>
> A couple of goals:
>
> I think that we will see our first adoption by
> students who
> are looking for quick free information. In time, my
> hope is
> that we will have materials so good that they will
> be used
> officially in schools to accompany and then replace
> traditional textbook materials.
>
> This site should be the center on the WWW for
> collaborative
> textbook development. I have seen some scattered
> efforts to
> do free textbooks out there but none (but --April's)
> using
> a wiki. I think if we give them a place and make it
> friendly that people will use it and our site will
> grow to
> be the standard setter. So lets make it friendly to
> teachers and other people who can be power
> contributers.

You're missing the point of the question. How are
/teachers/ supposed to use a dynamic teaching medium
and still form lesson plans and teach the class well?
They are used to a static medium. I think the best
solution would be create a versioning system like in
software (I can't remember if I mentioned this on the
list yet.). First, we would work on the first version
and get a lot of information to make it adequate. This
is the alpha version. Then, it would be frozen except
for minor typographical and wording edits. This is
beta. Eventually (maybe 6 months) we would consider it
to be the official first version. Then, we'd start
working on the second version, changing around
information and moving chapters around, etc, until it
was frozen and finalised too. Then the third version,
etc.
-LDan

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subject: [WikiEN-l] unified Wiki-world search

body:
--- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:
> If we could get a unified search going across the
> Wikipedia, Wiktionary, wiki textbook site and any
> other
> wiki projects, that will put our efforts way ahead
> of
> anything else that I have seen out there on the web.
> Search
> a dictionary, encyclopedia and textbooks all at the
> same
> time ? That would be awesome ! What ? And its free ?
> That
> should help push adoption of use of the sites .. And
> some
> users later become contributers.

Well, currently, Wiktionary isn't doing so well. It
has only 3447 entries, far too few for a real refrence
dictionary. And the textbook project hasn't even
started.
-LDan

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body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> >Magnus-
> >
> >>Using the "Enhanced recent changes" really helps
> getting the Recent
> >>Changes flood under control :-)
> >>
> >
> >I use it, but it's not the default and doesn't work
> in every browser. Last
> >I checked, only 362 of 11474 users used it.
> >
> That 11474 includes many people who only stay a
> short while.  Most of
> the regulars should know about it.
>
> Ec

I didn't know about it until just now. But on a side
note, is there any way we could delete accounts that
have been vacant for, say, a year, automatically? We
really have a bloated membership count, so the media
keeps using the 'wikipedians' count.
-LDan

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subject: [Textbook-l] textbook versioning

body:
Hey LDan,

Thanks for your comments.

I agree completely that we will need some kind of mechanism
to make a static version of a textbook for it to be used in
a classroom setting.

An early brainstorm that I had was to make a special
service for this purpose, where an individual teacher could
take a "public" version of a wiki textbook and make it into
a limited-editability version for their class. So for that
subset of the information, anyone else could see and copy
the text materials but to modify it would have to set it up
in a different spot. Thats one way I imagined that we could
give a bit of stability to the prof ... my dad is an
educator so I know how much teachers and schools demand
control over their materials, especially in the k-12.

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from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageFr.php

body:
Wow, I seem to missed something yesterday !
First of all, I think to remember that Brion make a **convertion** on
language page before to upload it on the server.
I don't know what he do exaclty but I assume it's about encodage convertion.
Brion is back ? No one else know about that ?
The simplest is amho to ask him the right way to upadate language page (a
walkthrough) as we may be able to update french language update.
The thing I don't understand is why when Tarquin switch back the old
version, all problems didn't vanish !?
By the way, I also have access to CVS as developper, but I never succed to
setup WinCVS through my office firewall (in fact I didn't try a lot yet).
It may be nice that Tarquin or me (or both) be able to update french
language update :o)
Wait Brion & pray :oP

Aoineko

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthere" <anthere6 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] LanguageFr.php

>
> --- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> > Anthere wrote:
> > > I thiiiiiiink, it would be great a french-speaking
> > person does have
> > >access one day. Especially a long-time contributor,
> > bilingual to avoid
> > >misunderstanding, dedicated, cool-spirited...cough
> >
> > Yes, me too!  Are you a technical person?
> >
> > --Jimbo
>
> No, sorry Jimbo. I am not really.
> I would more dangerous than worthy :-)
> My wonderful skills do not rely there :-)))
>
> (and I am neither bilingual, nor cool-spirited ;-))
>
> __________________________________
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Graham Burnett <grahamburnett at blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > > >Reasons for enforcing ban:
> > > >
> > > >In spite of repeated warning, persists in his
> > annoying habit to make
> > > >dozens of edits per page within an interval of
> > seconds,
> > >
> > > Banning somebody for making too many edits to
> one
> > article in too short a
> > > space of time is pretty draconian. I don't think
> > it's even close to a a
> > > good reason for banning.
> > >
> >
> > Well I guess I'd have to be banned too 'cos I'm
> > frequently guilty of this as
> > well.
> >
> > Graham (quercus robur)
>
> I used to make many multiple edits to an article,
> but
> as soon as it was pointed out that this was bad
> (with
> lir), I've tried to avoid it.
> -LDan

At some point, I heard so much how bad it was, I tried
to fit all my changes in only one edit.
I lost my work several times when some timeouts
occured.

Perhaps my doing all my edits in one row can make up
for those requiring plenty of savings ???

For sure, this cannot be a reason for banning. It is
annoying perhaps. But not *hurting* anyone, nor
*damaging* the project. Are they any other reasons for
rejecting people ?

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>--- Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>>That 11474 includes many people who only stay a
>>short while.  Most of
>>the regulars should know about it.
>>
>>Ec
>>
>
>I didn't know about it until just now. But on a side
>note, is there any way we could delete accounts that
>have been vacant for, say, a year, automatically? We
>really have a bloated membership count, so the media
>keeps using the 'wikipedians' count..
>
An inactive list might be better.  They would keep their user names
indefinitely with their rights of access intact.  All they would need to
do to get back on the active list is edit something.  Even editing their
own preferences would do.  Maybe just logging in would do.

Ec

>


from_name: Smith, Robert

subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
Dear Friends:

Is it possible to use HTML  and  type
tags or something similar in a Wikipedia article? What I'm
thinking is that, if an article gets longish, we could construct
a table of contents at the top, for the reader's convenience.

Bob "the newbie" of the Fort

Rev. Robert E. Smith
Project Wittenberg Coordinator
   and
Electronic Resources Librarian
Concordia Theological Seminary
Fort Wayne, Indiana
"Translatio traditio est."
		-- attr. St. Jerome


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Sheng Jiong

subject: [Wikipedia-l] SQL query

body:
Hi, everybody. Some sysops in Chinese Wikipedia want to know how to check the number of
artiles that are *edited* in a *day* through sql query. Anyone has any idea?

Thanks

[[User:Formulax]]


subject: [WikiEN-l] PP and ban

body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
> >Well. Other perfectly well integrated editors have
> >done similar things. Ie, considering the point of
> view
> >of editors who had made a very small number of
> >contributions had less weight than them. Imho, that
> >makes sense. Also, he did not try to "cheat" and
> make
> >the change with noone being aware of it, since he
> put
> >a comment.
> >
> >I think were more and more things be decided by
> votes
> >(how sad), there is perhaps need to check whether
> >there is no double voting.
> >
> If we end up in a situation where votes make a
> difference, we shouldn't
> put ourselves in a position where double voting will
> have any
> significant effect.  That's better than trying to
> devise schemes for
> frustrating the cheaters.
>
> Where votes are taken they can only give us
> temporary solutions.  New
> people who join after the vote should have the
> opportunity to have their
> influence mean something even if it means reversing
> a policy..

Quite true. I agree. But hopefully, we won't change
order of dates every 6 months :-)

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body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> James-
>
> one problem in enforcing bans is that we have to be
> *sure* that the person
> is the same one as the previously banned one. In
> Adam's case this is quite
> obvious, but people have been defending each of his
> incaranations, so it
> doesn't surprise me that the current one is defended
> as well. I'm not sure
> ChuckM is really DW, though. The long rant he put on
> [[Wikipedia:Votes for
> deletion]] did not sound like something DW would
> write. Which doesn't mean
> that you aren't right, of course, just that I
> wouldn't ban ChuckM on the
> basis of the evidence.
>
> Because we have literally no identity requirement
> before signing up as a
> new user, it will always be easy for people to come
> back under new names.
> Previously we at least had an email field that many
> people believed was
> required for signing up. So many banned users added
> their old email
> address, nice! Then someone complained, and now it
> explicitly states that
> you don't need an email address.
>
> There are several technical solutions that have been
> discussed for making
> bans work better. I think the following ones are
> pretty good:
>
> 1) Log the IP address the user signed up with and
> allow sysops to view it.
> That makes comparisons possible and narrows down the
> identity. It also
> allows banning in case of emergencies.
>
> 2) Place a "bad cookie" on their machine that allows
> us to identify them,
> if they do not notice and remove it. (Most users
> just accept all cookies
> without checking.)
>
> 3) Require a valid email address before signup, e.g.
> by sending a new user
> the password by email. No valid address -- no
> password. Some say email
> addresses are just as easy to create as user
> accounts here. I do not
> agree. Setting up a Hotmail account is quite a PITA,
> for example, and most
> people don't know many freemail account providers.
> It has certainly worked
> for Kuro5hin.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

I guess I agree with the first two, but I hate the
third. Sure, it would probably work on the stupider
vandals, but I really hate getting a password like
dk2SF84gsf5K in my email and then can't figure out how
to change the password. That's why I don't use
Kuro5hin. But maybe account activation by email would
be good. The only problem with all of these ideas is
that a tech-smart user can work around them.

Plus, I like having multiple accounts for some
purposes. For example, I sign some things as LDan, but
my real username is LittleDan. So I created an LDan
account and made it a redirect to LittleDan. I don't
really want to have to do a workaround for that.
-LDan

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from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] A proof (was: CJK Revision diff -- Vanadalism Detection)

body:
On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 10:16:57PM -0700, Menchi Zh-En WP wrote:
> >From: "Menchi" ...
> >2) The following example is even more bizarre. There's no space added, no
> >char changed, but yet 3 sentences were reddened:
> >
> >http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:%E5%B8%B8%E8%A7%81%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94&diff=0&oldid=5224
> >
> >Such difficulties renders what could be obvious vandalism in Western
> >Wikipedias quite subtle in CJK Wikipedia.s
> >
> >Menchi Zh-En
>
> Ok, after the 6 inspections of that Chinese Wiki-diff -- 1 of which
> C-&-P'ed to Notepad, another to Word -- I gave you above: I found the
> difference, finally. It is a vandal (and I honestly thought just a newbie
> wanting to perfect our Mandarin wording! I mentioned vandalism merely as a
> possibility).
>
> The vandal changed the mentioning of the English WP creation year fr. 2001
> -> 2006. A moronic joke or Anglophobist it is.
>
> Anyway, that just further proofs the flaw of the current diff detection.

It's word-based, so it doesn't work well with spaceless scripts.
The easiest thing would be to tell it that every CJK character is a word
on its own. (there has to be some nice regular expression for CJK character)

On the other hand I'm not sure if Japanese and Koreans would be happy with
that treatment of kana/hangul, so something more complex may be needed in future.


subject: [WikiEN-l] A puzzle of pizzas

body:
--- Stevertigo <stevertigo at attbi.com> wrote:
> >Pizza Puzzle wrote: I would like to note that I
> agree with you. Prague
> should be henceforth >"Praha"; just as the German
> cities should be written
> in German. Two points were made >against you:
>
> >A) The Christopher Columbus issue; one should note
> that whether Cristoforo
> or Cristobal >is used; either one is infinitely more
> correct that
> Christopher since Colombo, himself, used >both the
> Spanish and Italian
> versions BUT NEVER the English version which is
> wholly >fallacious.
>
> Well, I tend to agree. It does however bring into
> mind the possibility that
> asserting such "policy" as i suggested (aside from
> contradicting my long
> standing dislike for propriety) would not be really
> practical.  Maybe this
> would be a far better argument against.  The
> argument for really relies on a
> change of convention, like I said - namely something
> that would be somewhat
> revolutionary. The question then is implementation -
> would it be too
> confusing? Could it be a way to enhance
> cross-lingual communication?
>
> I finally realized that this really was about
> attempting to break down the
> language barriers - allowing some easier
> cross-operability that ignores the
> established language barriers, allowing for some
> compromises in our
> much-hailed "standards" -- but also allowing for
> increased multi-lingual
> participation.   This is no doubt the future of
> wikipedia, but it would
> require some heavy assistance from language tools --
> technologies that are
> barely in their fruition.
>
> It could be after all, that the solution is simply
> for all these miserable
> foreigners to just learn English gooder.

If they don't know English, they should be working on
a non-english wikipedia, not asserting the italian
name for someone.
>
> >B) The Los Angeles issue in which one user
> sarcastically stated that we
> should revert to >the Native American name. Such a
> reversion would not be in
> accordance with your more >reasonable suggestion
> since Los Angeles was
> essentially built on top of the older city, in a
> >like manner, Mexico DF
> should not be renamed Tenochtitlan.
>
> All such arguments were red herring attacks, summat.
>  But GTBOTD* they
> attempt to illustrate the fuzzy boundaries inherent
> to drawing lines to
> differentiate changes to how things are done.  In
> essence I agree with
> them - 'dont mess with it if it aint broke.' To a
> large degree I threw it
> out there to see what the climate was, and what the
> real idea was that I was
> trying to materialize.  I had it saved as a draft
> and decided to send it -
> to see if it would stir some braincells. Not that I
> intent to fight a one
> man war for something so stupid and trivial as
> policy. In short - they were
> abolutely correct, though their arguments were a bit
> convoluted.

The arguments against your suggested policy change
didn't seem to me to be convoluted at all.
>
> The funny thing in that case, is that it actually
> illustrates my point.
> "Los Angeles" isnt changed in American speech to
> "The Angels" -- nor to
> Americans call most other Latin based names by
> anything different, simply
> due to some language similarities. In fact, in most
> cases the Anglicization
> is rather loyal - thus its the minority that are
> modified, and then usually
> only slightly.  To change the minority to their
> proper local names, would be
> to actually enforce the existing *standard.
> (something again I dont
> advocate). "Roma" instead of "Rome" -- 'would be too
> confusing?' I dont
> think so. These are the same arguments against the
> deprication of the term
> "Indians" to refer to American Natives. Tie that in
> with the Christoforo
> Colombo factor, and youll get the joke.

But there is a diffence. Rome, Indians, Native
Americans, and Christopher Colombus are English words
(or anglicised names) and are what people speaking
*English* use. If you are working on the latin or
spanish Wikipedia, you can use the latin or spanish
names, but the English wikipedia is for English.
>
> >In secret correspondence with certain unnamed
> individuals, I have been
> informed that you >are now classed as a "true troll"
> and are walking on
> "very thin ice". Good luck, viva la >resistance!
>
> As it should be. I wonder if theyre using Danny's
> once-stated definition of
> a troll - here on the list. "Very thin ice?"  I was
> on "very thin ice" from
> the day I started contributing.  This later became
> "good job on this" and
> "good job on that."  People get pissy, and I dont
> give out blowjobs - thats
> what that means.  All of humanity is on thin ice, so
> its like the pot
> calling the kettle... "nigga!"
>
> BTW, IMHO, "Troll" is almost like the internet
> equivalent of calling someone
> a "terrorist" - 'I saw you marching at a peace
> rally, you terrorist...'
> It's a very slippery slope, and some here have
> gotten quite quick to use the
> T word, (at least in private :]) it seems they never
> understood the late,
> great, Robert Zimmerman when he said... "don't speak
> too soon for the
> wheel's still in spin."
>
> -Wove and trolling,
> Steven

Well, I guess I agree on that last point.

But isn't it obvious that Pizza Puzzle is just joining
this debate to cause conflict?

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subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Anthere-
>
> > For sure, this cannot be a reason for banning.
>
> It would be nice and an entirely new approach to
> things if people actually
> started to read what I write.

I did read what you wrote :-)
I promise I did.
I always read what you write.
I rarely agree with you, but I like you nonetheless.
I rarely agree with you but your opinions are
supported, fair and interesting. So, I always read you
:-)

Among all your propositions, I found one I happen to
agree with. Which is "making a valid email adress when
registering a requirement".

I proposed to *enforce
> the existing ban* on
> Lir.

But, it is not sure it is Lir

 For this, the threshold of annoyance should
> arguably be much lower.

If it is proved PP is Lir, you have enough of a reason
to ban her (along current trend of hard banning
anyway). If it cannot be proved PP is Lir, she must be
treated just as any other contributor. In which case,
the threshold has to be the same for her than for
anyone. You, Quercus, Lir or me.

> Furthermore, Lir's number of edits is excessive by
> any standard. At which
> point does it get too much? 100 edits per page?
> 1000?

Ok. Let's set a number then :-)
I would say the treshold would be different for a list
than for a regular article.

Seriously, a much more important topic right now imho,
is the absolutely incredible slughishness (I really
can't find the right spelling, sorry) of Wikip?dia.
Which is currently basically making it non editable
:-(((

> Regards,
>
> Erik

Amicalement

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Feature request?

body:
--- Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> Richard Grevers wrote:
> > So I rephrase my request to "please could we have
> a go button in the
> > cologne blue skin". Or an option which is
> independent of skins.
>
> OK, I installed it on http://test.wikipedia.org
> (need to log in and turn
> on CB, of course). The reason I didn't just commit
> it to CVS is that the
> Go/Search buttons have to break into the next line
> in the quickbar,
> making it even longer.
>
> Change it to this, or leave it "as is"?
>
> Magnus

That looks OK. I noticed that there are many advanced
features on test that wikipedia doesn't have, but the
last time I went on, they were very similar. When will
these be implimented on Wikipedia?
-LDan

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subject: [Textbook-l] textbook versioning

body:
--- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey LDan,
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> I agree completely that we will need some kind of
> mechanism
> to make a static version of a textbook for it to be
> used in
> a classroom setting.
>
> An early brainstorm that I had was to make a special
> service for this purpose, where an individual
> teacher could
> take a "public" version of a wiki textbook and make
> it into
> a limited-editability version for their class. So
> for that
> subset of the information, anyone else could see and
> copy
> the text materials but to modify it would have to
> set it up
> in a different spot. Thats one way I imagined that
> we could
> give a bit of stability to the prof ... my dad is an
> educator so I know how much teachers and schools
> demand
> control over their materials, especially in the
> k-12.

That can be done with the current Wikipedia, too, and
is the essence of the FDL.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Anthere-
>
> >> I proposed to *enforce
> >> the existing ban* on
> >> Lir.
>
> > But, it is not sure it is Lir
>
> He posted a link to the text "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is a
> troll" on Jtdirl's talk
> page. Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is Lir's real name. What more
> evidence do you need? I
> already pointed this out in my original mail.

this is evidence ?!?
whaoooo

> > Ok. Let's set a number then :-)
> > I would say the treshold would be different for a
> list
> > than for a regular article.
>
> > Seriously, a much more important topic right now
> imho,
> > is the absolutely incredible slughishness (I
> really
> > can't find the right spelling, sorry) of
> Wikip?~dia.
> > Which is currently basically making it non
> editable
> > :-(((
>
> Sure, it's terribly slow. And the more edits you
> make, the slower it gets.
> See the relation?

bright !

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subject: [WikiEN-l] PP and ban

body:
Anthere wrote:

>--- Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>>If we end up in a situation where votes make a
>>difference, we shouldn't
>>put ourselves in a position where double voting will
>>have any
>>significant effect.  That's better than trying to
>>devise schemes for
>>frustrating the cheaters.
>>
>>Where votes are taken they can only give us
>>temporary solutions.  New
>>people who join after the vote should have the
>>opportunity to have their
>>influence mean something even if it means reversing
>>a policy..
>>
>
>Quite true. I agree. But hopefully, we won't change
>order of dates every 6 months :-)
>
Out of the 6 options given in that vote, when I last looked 4 of them
had a significant number of votes.  When that happens you want to be
able to look for a solution that respects all of these views.  A winner
takes all approach just leaves people angry.

Ec


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] SQL queries logged

body:
Since there's been concern from some quarters about the effect of
sysops' SQL access, I've rigged up AskSql so it logs the date, user,
query, and length of time taken for queries.

The log for the English wiki can be grabbed at:
http://www.wikipedia.org/upload/sqllog_mFhyRe6

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] unified Wiki-world search

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>--- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>If we could get a unified search going across the
>>Wikipedia, Wiktionary, wiki textbook site and any
>>other
>>wiki projects, that will put our efforts way ahead
>>of
>>anything else that I have seen out there on the web.
>>Search
>>a dictionary, encyclopedia and textbooks all at the
>>same
>>time ? That would be awesome ! What ? And its free ?
>>That
>>should help push adoption of use of the sites .. And
>>some
>>users later become contributers.
>>
>
>Well, currently, Wiktionary isn't doing so well. It
>has only 3447 entries, far too few for a real refrence
>dictionary. And the textbook project hasn't even
>started.
>
Wiktionary is coming along just fine!!!!  The number of articles is not
so important at this stage.
On the other hand I have no significant interest in the textbook project.
I've got no objection to a unified search function, but it should work
no matter how big or small the separate projects are.
Ec


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Voting (was PP and ban)

body:
Ec wrote:
>Out of the 6 options given in that vote, when I last
>looked 4 of them had a significant number of votes.
>When that happens you want to be able to look for a
>solution that respects all of these views.  A winner
>takes all approach just leaves people angry.

Amen to that! We need to avoid the tyranny of
simple-minded voting schemes as much as possible here
in order to maintain good will and all that happy
crap. :)

That's why the current vote is fatally flawed; it is
winner take all solely based on which option gets the
largest share of votes (which wouldn't even be 30% of
the total!).

What we need to work on, as Ec wrote, is something
that combines the best parts of each of the 4 leading
options. That way the great majority of voters can
have a system they can at least live with.

Eloquence is planning on creating a graduated
approval/disapproval voting vote to replace the
current one. Hopefully we can reach a consensus before
it comes to that though (IMO voting should be one of
the last things we use to resolve conflicts -
consensus should always be sought first).

-- mav

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from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] A puzzle of pizzas

body:
|LittleDan wrote: Well, I guess I agree on that last point.
|
| But isn't it obvious that Pizza Puzzle is just joining
| this debate to cause conflict?

Well, of the two - conflict or consensus, which can actually be "caused"?

-SM


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
Erik wrote: In response PP posted a link to the "Adam
| [name omitted for privacy reasons] is a troll" page. I'm sure this is all a big coincidence. He
| probably fell with his head on his keyboard and the name "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]"
| came out. We'll have to wait until Adam posts his home address and his
social security number.

Hehe. :)

-SM-


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
| Erik wrote: In response PP posted a link to the "Adam
| | [name omitted for privacy reasons] is a troll" page. I'm sure this is all a big coincidence. He
| | probably fell with his head on his keyboard and the name "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]"
| | came out. We'll have to wait until Adam posts his home address and his
| social security number.
|
|
| Hehe. :)
|
| -SM-
|

Its also true that Adam has or has had some direct communication with Jimbo,
despite the ban... and yet the long standing opinion remains that hes to
nuts to deal with. I'm still not sure about that. Hes certainly nuts, and Im
qualified to say, but....

 Its kinda like the war on drugs... does it sap too many people, too much
time, and energy to deal with?  Or is it appropriate to enlist a Militia
(why does that sound familiar?) -- people interested primarily in
policework -- to deal with the issue by force. Does this even work? People
whos job it is to contain other people (police, mp's in Iraq, prison guards,
airport security, etc) some may say, tend to become weary and or abusive.

Just as much energy as goes into curtailing specific actions or specific
peoples might be better spent on domestic programs... kinda like
WikiScholarships, or Wiki-welfare. :)  (Ahem.) (Choke.)

-SM-


subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
Now, THAT'S interesting!

So, for example, I'd do this:

[[Martin_Luther#Bib|Bibliography] in the TOC

and

 ==Bibliography==

and it's work?

Rev. Robert E. Smith
Electronic Resources Librarian
Concordia Theological Seminary
Fort Wayne, Indiana
"Translatio traditio est."
		-- attr. St. Jerome
-----Original Message-----
From: Luc Van Oostenryck [mailto:luc.vanoostenryck at easynet.be]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 12:40 PM
To: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 01:53:42AM +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 05:45:00PM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > > Robert-
> > > > Is it possible to use HTML  and  type
> > > > tags or something similar in a Wikipedia article?
> > >
> > > It has been discussed, but I think the majority does not want it,
> because
> > > it complicates linking unnecessarily. It would be difficult to keep
> track
> > > of links to non-existent sections and to fix them, and this might
happen
> a
> > > lot given how often articles are rewritten.
> > >
> > > What I, and I think most people, would find useful is an option to
have
> an
> > > automatic table of contents for every article with more than x
headlines
> > > (I would say x=3), which would use the headlines as position points
for
>  > > name=".."> tags. But you could not directly link to one of the
sections
> > > from another article.
> > >
> > > Actually, you can see a similar feature in action on Sun's Javapedia:
> > >
> http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Javapedia/AlwaysUseStringBufferMisconception
> > > (Die, CamelCase!)
> >
> > Which majority doesn't want it ? Just try using Wiktionary for a moment
> > and you'll see why having option of linking (cross-article) to such
> headings
> > is something that we have to implement.
>
> I'm also FOR and I ask desperately this feature in Wikipedia for a while !
> [[Foo#Bar|Text]] may be VERY nice to me.
> With for exemple ##Bar to create targets.
>
> Aoineko

It work already. Look on fr: at [[Liste des articles d'astronomie]].
What is missing is how to set the anchor (a fake
 work but is
painfull).

--
Luc Van Oostenryck aka Looxix
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from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On 6/24/03 1:44 PM, "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I guess I agree with the first two, but I hate the
> third. Sure, it would probably work on the stupider
> vandals, but I really hate getting a password like
> dk2SF84gsf5K in my email and then can't figure out how
> to change the password. That's why I don't use
> Kuro5hin. But maybe account activation by email would
> be good. The only problem with all of these ideas is
> that a tech-smart user can work around them.
>
> Plus, I like having multiple accounts for some
> purposes. For example, I sign some things as LDan, but
> my real username is LittleDan. So I created an LDan
> account and made it a redirect to LittleDan. I don't
> really want to have to do a workaround for that.
> -LDan
>
Um...that's why we have the nickname field.


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: wiktionary, search

body:
>Well, currently, Wiktionary isn't doing so well. It
>has only 3447 entries, far too few for a real refrence
>dictionary. And the textbook project hasn't even
>started.

I personally dont use Wiktionary but would see more use in
it if it were more unified with WP. If there were an easy
way to write a quick definition for a word I use in an
article, for example a scientific term, and put it in the
Wiktionary instead of starting a stub article on the WP.
Maybe a command that would formulate a Wiktionary hyperlink
easily like we have for within WP ...

Karl

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from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
I wonder if there might be a way for a single contributor to combine
many of their changes into one.

Example:
  Before:
    Change by Chris
    Change by Chris
    Change by Chris
    Change by Chris
    Change by Chris
    Change by Chris

  After:
    6 Changes by Chris (combined)

This would include the different diff lines (essentially caching the
diff display) into /one/ entry.

This may help people who are leery of making too many edits at once,
for fear of timeouts or "Contributor conflic", as well as keep the
database from growing too much.

Thoughts?

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] A puzzle of pizzas

body:
| >| But isn't it obvious that Pizza Puzzle is just joining
| >| this debate to cause conflict?
| >
| >
| >Well, of the two - conflict or consensus, which can actually be "caused"?
|
| Vicki:Both, of course.

Ha.  Nope, sorry.  This is related to that old principle... (via Dr. Phil ;)
noone can "make" you mad...  they can do something that would in 10 out of
11 billion people would result in an angry response, but thats not a "make".

Can you suggest consensus? Yes. Can you attempt to cause conflict?
Certainly... But theres a step in the middle there that people miss.  An
analogy would be: (as people have often stated ) "We fight to protect our
freedom"  Conquest equals freedom?  Dont think so.  Conquest = Wealth =
Material freedom/perception of freedom/relative freedom... etc.  Thats
perhaps more correct.

-SM-


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageFr.php

body:
Aside with the problem with Global Functions, which is beyond me, I made
a HUGE mistake:

I copied the text from the RENDERED wiki page (
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LanguageFr.php ) and NOT from the source.
doh! doh! doh!

Aoineko <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Aoineko> has sent me a
fixed version, with entities for characters foreign to the fr: setup
(language names for instance).
I have uploaded this to CVS.
New version is 1.4


subject: [WikiEN-l] A puzzle of pizzas

body:
|
| Can you make yourself mad? If so, then someone can make you mad.

Well I can *drive myself mad... but thats not making me mad... is it?

:)-SV


subject: [Wikitech-l] SQL queries

body:
--- Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Since there's been concern from some quarters about
> the effect of
> sysops' SQL access, I've rigged up AskSql so it logs
> the date, user,
> query, and length of time taken for queries.
>
> The log for the English wiki can be grabbed at:
> http://www.wikipedia.org/upload/sqllog_mFhyRe6
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

btw, I need another one.

Some time ago, I asked if I could be told which query
to do to get the list of pages in the meta name space.
I would appreciate having this one :

list of all articles
created in the meta namespace
since "date"

thanks a lot

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from_name: David Friedland

subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
I would suggest instead of making the table of contents automatically
appear on all pages with many headlines, make some kind of <toc> tag
that would automatically insert a table of contents based on headlines
wherever the <toc> tag is. This would allow short introductory
paragraph(s) to precede the table of contents for people who only want a
small amound of information on a topic. Also, it would allow page
authors to make a judgement on whether or not an article needs a TOC
based on number of headlines, how long the text in each section is, etc.

- David (Nohat)

Erik Moeller wrote:

> Robert-
>
>> Is it possible to use HTML  and  type
>> tags or something similar in a Wikipedia article?
>
>
> It has been discussed, but I think the majority does not want it, because
> it complicates linking unnecessarily. It would be difficult to keep track
> of links to non-existent sections and to fix them, and this might
> happen a
> lot given how often articles are rewritten.
>
> What I, and I think most people, would find useful is an option to
> have an
> automatic table of contents for every article with more than x headlines
> (I would say x=3), which would use the headlines as position points
> for  name=".."> tags. But you could not directly link to one of the sections
> from another article.
>
> Actually, you can see a similar feature in action on Sun's Javapedia:
> http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Javapedia/AlwaysUseStringBufferMisconception
> (Die, CamelCase!)
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
Smith, Robert wrote:

>Dear Friends:
>
>Is it possible to use HTML  and  type
>tags or something similar in a Wikipedia article? What I'm
>thinking is that, if an article gets longish, we could construct
>a table of contents at the top, for the reader's convenience.
>
>
>
Generate it automatically from the heading tags.
(we do this on Unreal Wiki by the way :-)


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [WikiEN-l] A puzzle of pizzas

body:
At 01:18 PM 6/24/03 -0700, Stevertigo wrote:
>|LittleDan wrote: Well, I guess I agree on that last point.
>|
>| But isn't it obvious that Pizza Puzzle is just joining
>| this debate to cause conflict?
>
>
>Well, of the two - conflict or consensus, which can actually be "caused"?

Both, of course.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Anthere-
>
> >> He posted a link to the text "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is a
> >> troll" on Jtdirl's talk
> >> page. Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is Lir's real name. What more
> >> evidence do you need? I
> >> already pointed this out in my original mail.
>
> > this is evidence ?!?
> > whaoooo
>
> Nobody except a few select Wikipedia insiders and a
> few unfortunate
> relatives of his has any idea who Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is.
> Pizza Puzzle, a new
> user, was accused of being Lir because of his
> editing behavior (which is
> composed of a variety of factors, which you are
> apparently unable to see
> as a coherent picture).

Probably so.

I think that given that Lir appears to have a very
*obvious* pattern of writing, and that most english
editors are able to recognise this pattern, it is also
possible that some of these english editors are able
to imitate him.

Nobody even mentioned the
> name "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]",
> only the first name "Adam". In response PP posted a
> link to the "Adam
> [name omitted for privacy reasons] is a troll" page. I'm sure this is all a
> big coincidence. He
> probably fell with his head on his keyboard and the
> name "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]"
> came out.

True.
But all it probably proves is that Pizza is not a
newbie but an old hand.
It does not prove she is Lir.

Pizza might be somebody else who is trying to make
other people believe she is Lir.

Note that it won't change anything in the end, because
on Wikipedia, we ban people for what they do (the
damage) and not on their names/personality.

> We'll have to wait until Adam posts his
> home address and his
> social security number.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

Perhaps. But what will we do if she has two social
security numbers ?

gute nacht

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


from_name: John R. Owens

subject: [WikiEN-l] A puzzle of pizzas

body:
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 17:08, Stevertigo wrote:
>
> | >| But isn't it obvious that Pizza Puzzle is just joining
> | >| this debate to cause conflict?
> | >
> | >
> | >Well, of the two - conflict or consensus, which can actually be "caused"?
> |
> | Vicki:Both, of course.
>
> Ha.  Nope, sorry.  This is related to that old principle... (via Dr. Phil ;)
> noone can "make" you mad...  they can do something that would in 10 out of
> 11 billion people would result in an angry response, but thats not a "make".
>
> Can you suggest consensus? Yes. Can you attempt to cause conflict?
> Certainly... But theres a step in the middle there that people miss.  An
> analogy would be: (as people have often stated ) "We fight to protect our
> freedom"  Conquest equals freedom?  Dont think so.  Conquest = Wealth =
> Material freedom/perception of freedom/relative freedom... etc.  Thats
> perhaps more correct.

Can you make yourself mad? If so, then someone can make you mad.

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
It's easy to find something worth dying for.  Do you have anything worth
living for?
				--Lorien


subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 10:21:37AM -0500, Smith, Robert wrote:
> Dear Friends:
>
> Is it possible to use HTML  and  type
> tags or something similar in a Wikipedia article? What I'm
> thinking is that, if an article gets longish, we could construct
> a table of contents at the top, for the reader's convenience.

No, but it would be wonderful thing to have. With better link syntax of course,
like [[Foo#Bar|Quux]].


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Ray-
>> I use it, but it's not the default and doesn't work in every browser. Last
>> I checked, only 362 of 11474 users used it.
>>
> That 11474 includes many people who only stay a short while.

Don't forget the 7238 incarnations of Lir, Michael and DW.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
Robert-
> Is it possible to use HTML  and  type
> tags or something similar in a Wikipedia article?

It has been discussed, but I think the majority does not want it, because
it complicates linking unnecessarily. It would be difficult to keep track
of links to non-existent sections and to fix them, and this might happen a
lot given how often articles are rewritten.

What I, and I think most people, would find useful is an option to have an
automatic table of contents for every article with more than x headlines
(I would say x=3), which would use the headlines as position points for  tags. But you could not directly link to one of the sections
from another article.

Actually, you can see a similar feature in action on Sun's Javapedia:
http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Javapedia/AlwaysUseStringBufferMisconception
(Die, CamelCase!)

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 17:45, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Christopher-
>
> > This may help people who are leery of making too many edits at once,
> > for fear of timeouts or "Contributor conflic", as well as keep the
> > database from growing too much.
>
> Yes, we've discussed this before. I think I have found a solution now that
> I will probably implement at some point:
>
> Automatically have a checkbox appear after the second edit by the same
> user to the same page that says "Combine with previous edit"
>
> This checkbox would not be active by default to avoid data loss. But users
> who make lots of subsequent edits could pick:
>
> User preference:
> [ ] Combine subsequent edits by default
>
> Combining the edit would simply mean deleting the previous revision. The
> edit comments could be concatenated.

Uses the last edit summary, or an automatic edit summary saying
"combined last X edits"? And could we have this turned on by
unchangeable default for Michael? ;)

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish
thing.  They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is
where it needs to be.
				--Dukhat


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 17:45, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Christopher-
>
> > This may help people who are leery of making too many edits at once,
> > for fear of timeouts or "Contributor conflic", as well as keep the
> > database from growing too much.
>
> Yes, we've discussed this before. I think I have found a solution now that
> I will probably implement at some point:
>
> Automatically have a checkbox appear after the second edit by the same
> user to the same page that says "Combine with previous edit"
>
> This checkbox would not be active by default to avoid data loss. But users
> who make lots of subsequent edits could pick:
>
> User preference:
> [ ] Combine subsequent edits by default
>
> Combining the edit would simply mean deleting the previous revision. The
> edit comments could be concatenated.

Uses the last edit summary, or an automatic edit summary saying
"combined last X edits"? And could we have this turned on by
unchangeable default for Michael? ;)

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish
thing.  They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is
where it needs to be.
				--Dukhat
--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish
thing.  They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is
where it needs to be.
				--Dukhat


subject: [WikiEN-l] Announcing Wikimedia Foundation

body:
Alex T. wrote:

>I had previously suggested that legal advice (or at least
>a not-for-profit accountant) should be obtained for
>filing the 1023 for 501(c)(3) status.
>
I'm sure that we have enough smart people to figure this out.  The
possible problem may be with having a single donor footing all the
bills.  We need to make some decisions regarding the corporate structure
of the foundation.

>I would also like
>to point out (as I have before on Meta Wikipedia)
>that it is not necessary to file if the organization's donations
>are under $5,000.  Thus if you wish to announce donations
>you can accept them if they are under a certain amount.
>
The $5,000 floor is convenient in the short run, and I would be
surprised if we get that much during 2003.

>
>I would also urge you to look into filing with the necessary
>state authorities regarding charitable contributions some states
>have made these rules rather tough.
>
This may be moot since Florida does not have a state personal income tax.

>There is also a grace period for filing the 1023
>that can be extended for a variety of reasons.
>
Of course, so we don't need to rush.

>I cannot
>stress to much that seeking legal advice (even pro bono which is what
>I offered and no one has taken me up on) is a good thing
>as MANY groups are refused tax exempt status due to the
>fact that they have not checked the various IRS rulings and
>have drafted a corporate charter/certificates without the proper
>exempt purposes or correct recitials regarding termination
>transfers, etc..
>
What are you suggesting might be the potential difficulties in this case?

Eclecticology


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Announcing Wikimedia Foundation

body:
Sheldon Rampton wrote:

> Seriously, folks...has anyone considered approaching some of the big
> computer companies like Microsoft or Apple, or for that matter the
> Free Software Foundation? I'd think that some of them might have an
> interest in coming up with some funding. For example, Apple is
> primarily in the hardware business and might have an interest in
> encouraging the development of an open source internet platform for
> multimedia that motivates people to go out and buy more iBooks and
> iPods so they can use iMovie and iTunes.

Those strike me as tainted sources for revenue.  I would be suspicious
of anything from them, and any potential strings attached.  Sometimes
sudden riches can be a more serious problem than being poor.

A provision that limits the amount that a person can contribute could
protect the foundation from anyone who might come along and use his
money to influence the direction of the foundation.  We already know
Jimbo's approach to many issues, and we've mostly all accepted his Wiki
philosophy.  That does not guarantee that some new person won't come
along and use money to convince us to take some direction.

I've raised budgetting before, because I see that as an issue that needs
serious consideration.  Once we know how much we need, we'll know how
much to get from Wikipedians.  Some potential expenses can be dangerous.
 Paid staff can be a problem  because they can have a conflict of
interest between their personal well-being and the well-being of the
foundation.

Eclecticology


subject: Image code (was: [Wikitech-l] some new CSS styles for images)

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>I do encourage you to work on a
>redesign of the image handling code, though.
>
>
>
dumb question: where is the image handling code
(I've done a full-text search of the scripts for "src" and "img", no joy)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 05:45:00PM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Robert-
> > Is it possible to use HTML  and  type
> > tags or something similar in a Wikipedia article?
>
> It has been discussed, but I think the majority does not want it, because
> it complicates linking unnecessarily. It would be difficult to keep track
> of links to non-existent sections and to fix them, and this might happen a
> lot given how often articles are rewritten.
>
> What I, and I think most people, would find useful is an option to have an
> automatic table of contents for every article with more than x headlines
> (I would say x=3), which would use the headlines as position points for  name=".."> tags. But you could not directly link to one of the sections
> from another article.
>
> Actually, you can see a similar feature in action on Sun's Javapedia:
> http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Javapedia/AlwaysUseStringBufferMisconception
> (Die, CamelCase!)

Which majority doesn't want it ? Just try using Wiktionary for a moment
and you'll see why having option of linking (cross-article) to such headings
is something that we have to implement.

It goes like (link in Foo about language C):
Foo:
... .... ... ... ... [[Bar]] ... ...

Bar:
=== A language  ===
... ...... .... .... ....

=== B language ===
........... ..... ....... .... .......

=== C language ===
... ...... ... ...... ... ... ....

=== D language ===
...... .... ..... ...... .... .....

Click, and it goes to "Bar#A language"
Design disaster.


from_name: Dante Alighieri

subject: [WikiEN-l] A puzzle of pizzas

body:
At 04:12 PM 6/24/2003, you wrote:
>|
>| Can you make yourself mad? If so, then someone can make you mad.
>
>Well I can *drive myself mad... but thats not making me mad... is it?

I can make people mad... I can also make consensus... then again, I /am/
possessed of the power of the Loc-Nar, so I have abilities beyond those of
mere mortals.

http://www.villainsupply.com/superpowers.html (scroll to the bottom)

-----
Dante Alighieri
dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: wiktionary, search

body:
cprompt wrote:

> Wiktionary pages can easily link to Wikipedia through a link like
> this: [[w:User:Cprompt|my user page]]

w: is deprecated due to its non-specificity. If you want to link to the
English-language wikipedia from the associated subwikis (meta,
wiktionary), use [[en:]].

> I'm sure there's a similar way to make a link from Wikipedia to
> Wiktionary, but I don't know how. Anybody?

It should be a regular interwiki link: [[Wiktionary:somepage]]

If that's not set up, I'll add it...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
Anthere-

> For sure, this cannot be a reason for banning.

It would be nice and an entirely new approach to things if people actually
started to read what I write. I proposed to *enforce the existing ban* on
Lir. For this, the threshold of annoyance should arguably be much lower.
Furthermore, Lir's number of edits is excessive by any standard. At which
point does it get too much? 100 edits per page? 1000?

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 01:53:42AM +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 05:45:00PM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > > Robert-
> > > > Is it possible to use HTML  and  type
> > > > tags or something similar in a Wikipedia article?
> > >
> > > It has been discussed, but I think the majority does not want it,
> because
> > > it complicates linking unnecessarily. It would be difficult to keep
> track
> > > of links to non-existent sections and to fix them, and this might happen
> a
> > > lot given how often articles are rewritten.
> > >
> > > What I, and I think most people, would find useful is an option to have
> an
> > > automatic table of contents for every article with more than x headlines
> > > (I would say x=3), which would use the headlines as position points for
>  > > name=".."> tags. But you could not directly link to one of the sections
> > > from another article.
> > >
> > > Actually, you can see a similar feature in action on Sun's Javapedia:
> > >
> http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Javapedia/AlwaysUseStringBufferMisconception
> > > (Die, CamelCase!)
> >
> > Which majority doesn't want it ? Just try using Wiktionary for a moment
> > and you'll see why having option of linking (cross-article) to such
> headings
> > is something that we have to implement.
>
> I'm also FOR and I ask desperately this feature in Wikipedia for a while !
> [[Foo#Bar|Text]] may be VERY nice to me.
> With for exemple ##Bar to create targets.
>
> Aoineko

It work already. Look on fr: at [[Liste des articles d'astronomie]].
What is missing is how to set the anchor (a fake
 work but is painfull).

--
Luc Van Oostenryck aka Looxix


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
Anthere-

>> I proposed to *enforce
>> the existing ban* on
>> Lir.

> But, it is not sure it is Lir

He posted a link to the text "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is a troll" on Jtdirl's talk
page. Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is Lir's real name. What more evidence do you need? I
already pointed this out in my original mail.

> Ok. Let's set a number then :-)
> I would say the treshold would be different for a list
> than for a regular article.

> Seriously, a much more important topic right now imho,
> is the absolutely incredible slughishness (I really
> can't find the right spelling, sorry) of Wikip?dia.
> Which is currently basically making it non editable
> :-(((

Sure, it's terribly slow. And the more edits you make, the slower it gets.
See the relation?

Regards,

Erik


body:
Daniel-

> I guess I agree with the first two, but I hate the
> third. Sure, it would probably work on the stupider
> vandals, but I really hate getting a password like
> dk2SF84gsf5K in my email and then can't figure out how
> to change the password. That's why I don't use
> Kuro5hin.

I recently rewrote that part of Kuro5hin's codebase. The first time you
log in, you are automatically put on the preferences page and can, among
other things, set your password. Easy as pie.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 01:53:51PM -0500, Smith, Robert wrote:
> Now, THAT'S interesting!
>
> So, for example, I'd do this:
>
> [[Martin_Luther#Bib|Bibliography] in the TOC
>
> and
>
>
 ==Bibliography==

>
> and it's work?
>
> Rev. Robert E. Smith

Indeed, go and see on http://fr.wikipedia.org/Liste_des_articles_d'astronomie and click on the letters A to Z.
The problem is that it create self-linked articles.
What would be very nice would be [[#anchor|text]] and a syntax to create the anchor.

--
Luc Van Oostenryck aka Looxix


from_name: cprompt

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: wiktionary, search

body:
Karl Wick wrote:

>>Well, currently, Wiktionary isn't doing so well. It
>>has only 3447 entries, far too few for a real refrence
>>dictionary. And the textbook project hasn't even
>>started.
>>
>>
>
>I personally dont use Wiktionary but would see more use in
>it if it were more unified with WP. If there were an easy
>way to write a quick definition for a word I use in an
>article, for example a scientific term, and put it in the
>Wiktionary instead of starting a stub article on the WP.
>Maybe a command that would formulate a Wiktionary hyperlink
>easily like we have for within WP ...
>
>Karl
>
>
Wiktionary pages can easily link to Wikipedia through a link like this:
[[w:User:Cprompt|my user page]] (in fact, my user page on Wiktionary
contains that link to my Wikipedia user page.) I'm sure there's a
similar way to make a link from Wikipedia to Wiktionary, but I don't
know how. Anybody?

--

--cprompt


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
Anthere-

>> He posted a link to the text "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is a
>> troll" on Jtdirl's talk
>> page. Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is Lir's real name. What more
>> evidence do you need? I
>> already pointed this out in my original mail.

> this is evidence ?!?
> whaoooo

Nobody except a few select Wikipedia insiders and a few unfortunate
relatives of his has any idea who Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] is. Pizza Puzzle, a new
user, was accused of being Lir because of his editing behavior (which is
composed of a variety of factors, which you are apparently unable to see
as a coherent picture). Nobody even mentioned the name "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]",
only the first name "Adam". In response PP posted a link to the "Adam
[name omitted for privacy reasons] is a troll" page. I'm sure this is all a big coincidence. He
probably fell with his head on his keyboard and the name "Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]"
came out. We'll have to wait until Adam posts his home address and his
social security number.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageFr.php

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>>I thiiiiiiink, it would be great a french-speaking person does have
>>access one day. Especially a long-time contributor, bilingual to avoid
>>misunderstanding, dedicated, cool-spirited...cough
>
> Yes, me too!  Are you a technical person?

Unfortunaly I don't speak french, but I'm doing the most changes on the
LanguageDE.php file and I'm interested in the possibility to activate it,
if thats of interest (there are a lot of german developers and I don't know
of their interests in doing that job themselves), or test it.

If the process of activating such a language file on french or others is
the same (or someone (here: Brion) inform me about the tricks) I'm willing
to do that, too. Until a automatic script will do that job (I hope that's
never done, I can very well imagine the risk of this).

If it helps to give Brion some more time to do the realy important thinks,
I'm willing to lend a helping hand. There may be others too of course, Nick
  and you (Jimbo), but I think it will needs some more fallbacks before
Brions start to think about his next holidays. There needs to be someone
else, who's able to fix an index table, and activate a Language file etc.
(all those stupid little things costing Brions valuable time).

PS: if something I wrote was unclear, please give a hit, I had a long day
and my english is not good enought to keep a red line under this conditions.
--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] Voting (was PP and ban)

body:
Daniel-
> Eloquence is planning on creating a graduated
> approval/disapproval voting vote to replace the
> current one. Hopefully we can reach a consensus before
> it comes to that though (IMO voting should be one of
> the last things we use to resolve conflicts -
> consensus should always be sought first).

Actually, if Tim's solution works, the only thing we need to agree on is
what the default display option should be. For that, a rather primitive
voting system like FPP should be fully sufficient.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Links within article

body:
Richard Grevers wrote:
> Or, since an anchor is most often a heading, support for
> === Heading Text#anchor_id ===
>
> I wonder if we have any headings which contain # as a character?

Why not start it with a first easy version of those links? First of all,
let the developers implement a version using automatically the headings.
That's typically something you can activate in the preferences and
everybody can look if it helps and how far it helps. And if thats working
well we can take/think about the next step and extend this with manual
added anchors in the text-source.

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageFr.php

body:
Thomas-
> Until a automatic script will do that job (I hope that's
> never done, I can very well imagine the risk of this).

What risks are these? If CVS changes are automatically sent to the mailing
list, and the stuff has to run on test.wiki for a week, the risks seem
relatively low. In fact, the current system is riskier, because untested
CVS code has slipped onto the live server several times without any prior
review.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Textbook-l] Some concept ideas

body:
IMO writing a textbook (which I have done, on a very small scale;
nothing to buy in a shop;-) takes a more organized approach than
wikipedia. If we just start writing like on the 'pedia, we'll recreate
it. So, what we need is

* Structure

By which I mean a table of content. That can be altered, fine-tuned and
subdivided during writing, but we need a structured

* list of topics

to cover. *Then*, we can start filling in the pages. Because unlike
wikipedia, where everyone writes about a random topic and interconnects
it with the rest, there has to be a "what we want, what we need" kind of
thing.

As Karl and others already said, we'll need to create "stable" versions.
This is something any software developer should be used to. Therefore,
we have to say, at some point, "this is complete". That could be a fixed
date, but I think it will be hard to meet a deadline in a wiki environment.
So, my suggestion is that we freeze the table of contents (TOC) instead.
It could still be open for minor adjustments, but we should decide early
about

* what our first release should cover

We should keep track of the status of each page on both its talk page
and the TOC. I'd say if you find a page to be OK for release, you add
your signature to the talk page. If you're the third (or tenth;-) to
sign, you put an "OK" on the TOC at that topic.

Once all topics are marked OK, we take a few days going through it again
(here we could set a deadline!), then dump the whole thing into HTML
pages (I can do that, if you like), and put it somewhere (as an online
or ZIPped HTML collection, as RTF, PDF, or whatever).

Karl mentioned scattered attempts for free non-wiki textbooks on the
web. Once the site is up, we should try to go through these web pages
and ask the authors to join us, or to release their attempts under GFDL.
This could be organized on the site so we don't bother the same guy 20
times (like "declined", "donated his texts", "joined" etc.)

One more thing (more like a personal request): I would like to limit
editing to logged-in people only. Now calm down, I don't try to rip the
wiki principle apart. I just think that since this will be a more
organized effort than wikipedia, and as I'd rather not spent my time
cleaning up vandals on the textbook wiki all the time as well, I think
it might be a good idea to prevent bypassing vandals from inserting "yo
mom's stupid". Everyone would be free to get a user account, just like
on wikipedia. Just an extension: "You can edit this page right now. Just
get a free user account first". People who'd like to invest serious time
here will most certainly do that.

Magnus


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: wiktionary, search

body:
--- cprompt <cprompt at tmbg.org> wrote:
> Karl Wick wrote:
>
> >>Well, currently, Wiktionary isn't doing so well.
> It
> >>has only 3447 entries, far too few for a real
> refrence
> >>dictionary. And the textbook project hasn't even
> >>started.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I personally dont use Wiktionary but would see more
> use in
> >it if it were more unified with WP. If there were
> an easy
> >way to write a quick definition for a word I use in
> an
> >article, for example a scientific term, and put it
> in the
> >Wiktionary instead of starting a stub article on
> the WP.
> >Maybe a command that would formulate a Wiktionary
> hyperlink
> >easily like we have for within WP ...
> >
> >Karl
> >
> >
> Wiktionary pages can easily link to Wikipedia
> through a link like this:
> [[w:User:Cprompt|my user page]] (in fact, my user
> page on Wiktionary
> contains that link to my Wikipedia user page.) I'm
> sure there's a
> similar way to make a link from Wikipedia to
> Wiktionary, but I don't
> know how. Anybody?
>
> --
>
> --cprompt

No, there is no way. Just as we can't link
international wikipedias together or to the english by
other way than an external link with canonisation
requirements. The only possible thing to do is to link
the english wikipedia and meta to other wikipedias.
This is a one way direction for information to travel.
I'll give my wiki fortune for an easy way for
information of all languages to easily travel between
any wikipedias.

__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageFr.php

body:
tarquin wrote:
> Aside with the problem with Global Functions, which is beyond me, I made
> a HUGE mistake:
>
> I copied the text from the RENDERED wiki page (
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LanguageFr.php ) and NOT from the source.
> doh! doh! doh!
>
> Aoineko <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Aoineko> has sent me a
> fixed version, with entities for characters foreign to the fr: setup
> (language names for instance).
> I have uploaded this to CVS.
> New version is 1.4

Just went online. Working OK?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Feature request?

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> That looks OK. I noticed that there are many advanced
> features on test that wikipedia doesn't have, but the
> last time I went on, they were very similar. When will
> these be implimented on Wikipedia?

As soon as consensus is achived about using them, or in plain English,
"never"...

Magnus (just slightly frustrated today;-)


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: wiktionary, search

body:
Anthere wrote:

>No, there is no way. Just as we can't link
>international wikipedias together or to the english by
>other way than an external link with canonisation
>requirements.
>
Use InterWiki links:
[[DeWikiPedia:foobar]]
[[FrWikiPedia:foobar]]
etc...

Alas, many of these seem to be out of date or missing. I'll fix em up.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Jason Richey

subject: [Wikitech-l] Mailing lists

body:
There has been some recent discussion about upgrading our mailing list
software.  Also, we have discussed moving our mailing lists to a
different server.

I have upgraded the mailman installation on one of Bomis' servers, and
have received the go-ahead from Jimmy for putting the wikipedia lists
on that server.

So, I'll be looking at making a switch in the next few days, assuming
nobody comes up with a really good reason not to.

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageFr.php

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Thomas-
>
>>Until a automatic script will do that job (I hope that's
>>never done, I can very well imagine the risk of this).
>
>
> What risks are these? If CVS changes are automatically sent to the mailing
> list, and the stuff has to run on test.wiki for a week, the risks seem
> relatively low. In fact, the current system is riskier, because untested
> CVS code has slipped onto the live server several times without any prior
> review.

Well, and if nobody is online (of the developers) and all are on holidays
and all missed the missing ',' at the end, everything is hopefully in
english (fallback), and it will be fixed if the CVS is reinstalled in about
a week. Fine, din't test what happens if such a ',' is missing and if the
failback works, or if you everytime got an error in some logfile.

And if someone has a urgend patch, I bet, he/she will do it without using
or waiting for about a week, especialy if the patch is needed e.g. to
reduce the server load, fixig a security hole or something else of some
importance. Never realy seen that working, not even if the admin is payed
very well.

It's much more reliable if $ADMIN is around, putting the file at the proper
place and checks if the thing is working with the new file, take a look if
everything looks as expected and so on. And is half an hour watching his
mails if someone starts crying for help.

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [WikiEN-l] Bad word article

body:
Eclecticology wrote:

>The correct title should be [[Fucking ?m?l]].  Every other movie is
>referred to by its title, why should this be an exception.

Current conventions already dictate the Swedish name.
Contrary discussion on the talk page is out of date.
See [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)]].
I'll go move it now.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Bad word article

body:
Ilya N. wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>Let me note that while I'm picking on a post by Ilya,
>>the only conclusion that I want to draw is a general one.
>>Ilya did /not/ use his admin powers, or even ordinary powers,
>>to change this -- instead he brought it up on the list.
>>So I'm not questioning the fitness of Ilya in particular to be an admin!

>well, I /could have/ used whatever powers I was granted as an admin,
>however I didn't, how  is this bad. With simple correction I can learn,
>not from such a tone in messages as if you're attacking me. I'm not as
>stupid as many people in the word nowadays

It's not the least bit bad -- that's exactly what I said.
If my post sounded like attacking you, then I apologise for being unclear.
The post was about the validity of certain objections once raised
against your becoming an admin, not about your being an admin itself.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Proper Foreign Names

body:
Sean Barrett wrote:

>Stevertigo wrote:

>>This may sound offlandish - but I want to throw support behind the idea of
>>spelling proper names in close accord to their actual names' pronunciation.
>>The English spelling/pronunciation "Prague" would redirect to "Praha" - - the
>>actual name of the place. This is not something that should simply be left
>>to stand along English lines.

>Hear him, hear him!  I have long lobbied for my city to re-adopt its
>true name of Yang-na, given to it by its original inhabitants.  The
>religious-fundamentalist colonialist oppressors have successfully
>insisted on their own foreign name of "El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora, la
>Reina de Los Angeles de la Porciuncula" for far too long now -- and even
>that abomination of a name is often abbreviated even further, implying
>that the Christian concept of angels defines our city in its entirety!

O good Lord!

It's bad enough that we're repeating arguments in the wrong space
(naming convention discussions belong on naming convention talk pages,
in this case [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English)]]),
and without saying anything that hasn't been said before
(Steve doesn't seem to have read any of the old discussion,
and mav seems to have no interest in pointing him to it),
but now even the inane strawmen are being repeated almost verbatim.

Stop wasting my time!

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unreadable email messages

body:
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:

>Plain text was good enough for Dante and Shakespeare, and it's good enough
>for mailing lists.

>_Different people find different things most readable_. Therefore, it makes
>sense to let the _reader_ decide what colors to display messages in.

So decide, reader.
Choose to view SV's messages in plain text (that's what I do),
or tell your HTML interpreter to override his colour settings.
While I find SV's decision to specify colour unnecessarily provocative,
the fact is that he isn't forcing anything on any reader.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Dates: Your vote is needed

body:
Erik Moeller wrote in part:

>21 users favor the British style, 16 the American style and 8/10 respectively
>voted for two very similar options that amount to "do what you want".

>I would like to ask you to vote on the above page, preferably for one of
>the two options "Month Day" or "Day Month" (I'm trying to use my evil
>manipulative powers here), so that we can get a clear result, change (or
>not change) all our articles accordingly, and move on to more important
>things.

Or you could all vote for one of the "do what you want" options,
and we could move on to more important things /even faster/!

-- Toby


subject: [Textbook-l] Re: Textbooks

body:
[The post that I'm replying to appeared on <wikiEN-L>.
Replies whould go to <textbook-L.>]

Anthere wrote in part:

>Maveric149 wrote:

>>Same thing is true for a section of a medical textbook on abortion ; we leave
>>out most of the history and the different political views on the subject and
>>just talk about the procedure itself and maybe have a single paragraph at the
>>end sating something about access to the procedure and that risks doctors
>>face when they choose to specialize in this area.

>There are some aspects, even of technical education,
>that require understanding of politics, that require
>ethical information. A book limiting itself to the
>pure technical gestures to apply is *bad*. Very bad.

>This is particularly true in the biological domain you
>cite. Teaching abortion just from the technical
>procedure is an error. If only because abortion is
>allowed in some places, not allowed in others, and
>this should be known. Also because an abortion is a
>terrible act for most women to undergo, and *no*
>doctor should know it only from the tech point of
>view. He should be aware of the psychological impact
>of such a gesture, if he wants to propose and to
>proceed with such an act with the physical and
>psychological consent of the mother-to-be. Also
>because he should be aware of all the limits to such
>an act from a religious point of view.

Medical ethics is important in medical education.
Thus any medical textbook should speak of (or refer to)
discussion of the ethical concerns of a controversial procedure.
Abortion definitely qualifies for this
(even though /I/ have no ethical concerns about it).

>Offering bare technical teaching is wrong.

>Similarly, in agriculture, it makes no sense to *just*
>understand how fertilization works, if you do not
>understand the pollution it creates, the CAP rules
>about N uses and the incentives. Just providing the
>tech info is just giving enough information for
>survival, not for thinking and making good decisions.

Similarly, the potential pollutive effects of agriculture
are necessary for any complete education in agriculture
(although I don't know if there's a professional history of this
as there is in the case of medicine).

These examples are not the same thing as creationism.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Textbooks


from_name: Hunter Peress

subject: [Wikitech-l] please accept patch for @@@ == [[user_talk:username]]

body:
this is a patch for
@@@ == [[user_talk:username|username]]
@@@@ == [[user_talk:username|username DATE]]

just like ~~~ and ~~~~

usertalk is a better thing to leave as the system notifies people when their talk page is changed.
thus communications are more smooth.

to deny this patch by saying that this is merely a hack and that a overhaul to the talk pages is
needed, well....then i *demand* that you deny it with code for your suggestion in hand.

Patch:

--- Article.php 2003-06-09 14:16:38.000000000 -0500
+++ a.php       2003-06-25 02:07:56.000000000 -0500
@@ -1506,11 +1506,19 @@
                $d = $wgLang->timeanddate( wfTimestampNow(), false ) .
                  " (" . date( "T" ) . ")";
                if(isset($wgLocaltimezone)) putenv("TZ=$oldtz");
-
+
+        #eg [[User:username]]
                $text = preg_replace( "/~~~~/", "[[" . $wgLang->getNsText(
                  Namespace::getUser() ) . ":$n|$k]] $d", $text );
                $text = preg_replace( "/~~~/", "[[" . $wgLang->getNsText(
                  Namespace::getUser() ) . ":$n|$k]]", $text );
+
+        #eg [[User_talk:username]]
+        $text = preg_replace( "/@@@@/", "[[" . $wgLang->getNsText(
+          Namespace::getTalk(Namespace::getUser()) . ":$n|$k]] $d", $text );
+        $text = preg_replace( "/@@@/", "[[" . $wgLang->getNsText(
+          Namespace::getTalk(Namespace::getUser()) . ":$n|$k]]", $text );
+

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] PP and ban

body:
Dante Alighieri wrote in part:

[PP wrote in an edit summary:]

>"(should a user with only one edit really get a vote? )"

An interesting commetn in light of this early PP edit:

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Toby_Bartels&diff=941440&oldid=941403

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: wiktionary, search

body:
Karl Wick wrote:

>I personally dont use Wiktionary but would see more use in
>it if it were more unified with WP. If there were an easy
>way to write a quick definition for a word I use in an
>article, for example a scientific term, and put it in the
>Wiktionary instead of starting a stub article on the WP.
>Maybe a command that would formulate a Wiktionary hyperlink
>easily like we have for within WP ...

You mean like "[[wiktionary:word|]]"?
Try it!

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] A puzzle of pizzas

body:
John R. Owens wrote:

>Stevertigo wrote:

>>Ha.  Nope, sorry.  This is related to that old principle... (via Dr. Phil ;)
>>noone can "make" you mad...  they can do something that would in 10 out of
>>11 billion people would result in an angry response, but thats not a "make".

>Can you make yourself mad? If so, then someone can make you mad.

Yes, literally that is correct.
SV should say that no one /else/ can make you mad.

Although I disagree with SV's point all the same.
It's valid to note (as Dr. Phil wants to do)
that you have the power to influence your own emotions,
despite what other people may try to do to you.
But at the same time, this doesn't mean that
the other people are therefore blameless,
which is the conclusion that Steve seems to draw.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] too many edits???

body:
Christopher-

> This may help people who are leery of making too many edits at once,
> for fear of timeouts or "Contributor conflic", as well as keep the
> database from growing too much.

Yes, we've discussed this before. I think I have found a solution now that
I will probably implement at some point:

Automatically have a checkbox appear after the second edit by the same
user to the same page that says "Combine with previous edit"

This checkbox would not be active by default to avoid data loss. But users
who make lots of subsequent edits could pick:

User preference:
[ ] Combine subsequent edits by default

Combining the edit would simply mean deleting the previous revision. The
edit comments could be concatenated.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Stallman on fair use

body:
Axel Boldt wrote in part:

>Maybe we can. How about if we give up our current distinction between
>images and text and require a single confirmation whenever people
>upload material to Wikipedia:

>  By uploading material to Wikipedia, you certify that either
>     * the material is in the public domain, or
>     * the copyright owner of the material releases it under GFDL, or
>     * the material can be used under the [[fair use]] doctrine and
>       such fair use will likely extend to all third party users of
>       Wikipedia

>(maybe even with three checkboxes.)

You mean three radio buttons?

But in the case of images (along the lines of album cover thumbnails),
I don't think that we need to worry about future users of Wikipedia
(much less try to guess who's /likely/ to be one of these and who isn't).
This is because images can be easily removed by the future user.
For quotations, we should be able to ensure that the quotation
is fair use for /every/ potential user, so that would be all right.
Thus, there is a practical difference between text and images.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Stallman on fair use

body:
Maveric149 wrote:

>Camembert wrote:

>>This is perhaps a little off-topic, but is there a
>>quick and easy explanation of why the Wikipedia
>>is released under the GFDL and not into the public
>>domain? Somebody asked me the other day, and I
>>realised that I didn't actually know.

The answer is so that people like mav will contribute without fear.
All of my contributions are free from any restriction whatsoever
(except those created by previous editors, of course);
see <http://math.ucr.edu/~toby/copyleft/>.

-- Toby


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: please accept patch for @@@ == [[user_talk:username]]

body:
Hunter Peress wrote:
 > to deny this patch by saying that this is merely a hack and that a
 > overhaul to the talk pages is needed, well....then i *demand* that you
 > deny it with code for your suggestion in hand.

Attached is my proposed patch which tries to go for the root problem by
making a more prominent link to edit the user talk page from a user page.

This gives the same number of clicks to get into editing (one click to
the user page, a second to edit the talk page), and works on all
existing and future user page links.

It's running on test.wikipedia.org right now. The exact look and feel
could use some improvements, of course.

I've not yet put it in CVS.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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