subject: [WikiEN-l] Slogan policy

body:
I like Toby's idea of punctuating the slogan articles with quotes in the article title ("double quotes" floats my boat higher than 'single quotes', if we're gonna do this, because users searching Google are more likely to recognize it as "quoted text" that way).

If someone will change the existing 4 article titles...

hint, hint

Lazy Uncle


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Vicki's Question

body:
> Vicki exasperated: I will ask you this: are you an anti-Jewish racist? Yes
or no?
> You've pointed
> out that the false accusation of racism is a serious matter. You've also
> carefully
> avoided denying that you are a racist of this particular type.
>
> That the accusation of racism can be made falsely does not excuse racism
> or mean that there is no such thing. A malicious person could falsely
accuse
> me of murder. That doesn't mean that murder has never happened.

Ah you *ask* finally. Allow me instead of simply giving you a fish, teach
you *how to fish, and ask you to figure it out: 1. Stevertigo incessantly
quotes Chomsky, Einstein, Robert Zimmerman,.. thinks Rachmaninoff surpassed
all composers, loved Shindler's List, and am waiting eagerly for Occupation
101...   Can you fish? -SV


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

body:
>
> I have a few questions about NPOV:
>
> Is it POV to classify something as a pseudoscience (and say that it's
> definitely not true)?

Not if the something is truely a pseudoscience, as for example
[[astrology]].

> Is it POV to say that communism never works in practice? (or something
> similar)

No, just a simple fact-based observation.

> Is it POV to only list some of the facts (by accident or on purpose) leading
> someone to believe one point of view?

Yes, a lawyer's trick.

> Is it POV to use words that can be '''interperated''' as insulting?

Yes, Dummy!

Fred


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Susan Mason banned (was: User:RachelCorrie)

body:
Yes, Oliver, please name names.  And then go back and look at the posts Lir made that got him banned in the first place, and the posts Vera Cruz made that got him banned in the second place, and the emails to this list where Jimbo said that if Lir returned to the Wikipedia, Jimbo might consider legal action.
And then tell me that I don't have a right to make comments about "Susan Mason", who has been nothing but a thorn in the side of Wikipedia since his VERY FIRST post at [[Iowa State University]].
Zoe
 Oliver Pereira <omp199 at ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:Hello,

I'd be interested to know what these alleged "personal attacks" and lack
of "cooperative spirit" are. I haven't checked every single one of Susan
Mason's edits, but I have looked at quite a few, and most have looked
fairly useful to me. I've seen far worse personal attacks made *against*
Susan Mason than by her, and furthermore more of a cooperative spirit in
her lately than in some of those who have attacked her. Shall I name names
and recommend *them* for banning?

(Incidentally, if Susan Mason is Lir, then I understand that she's really
been banned all along, so none of this is relevant; I am speaking only of
the edits under the name "Susan Mason", viewed without prejudice.)

Oliver

P.S. - Yes, I know Lir was a "he", but I can't be bothered about correctly
gendered pronouns at the moment...

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Any last words, before I disable the Susan Mason account, anybody?
>
> Susan/Lir/Adam, do you have anything to say to the community?
>
> Uncle Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jimmy Wales [mailto:jwales at bomis.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:48 AM
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: User:RachelCorrie
>
>
> Jesse Alter wrote:
> > Well, actually, I'd like to (posthumously) withdraw my objection to
> > Lir's banning. I've found through conversation with Lir that they ARE
> > posting as Susan Mason, and they are making personal attacks on people
> > and they're lacking a uhh...cooperative spirit.
>
> Then Susan Mason is banned, too.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

+-------------------------------------------+
| Oliver Pereira |
| Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science |
| University of Southampton |
| omp199 at ecs.soton.ac.uk |
+-------------------------------------------+

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030319/1a1b602a/attachment.htm


subject: [WikiEN-l] DTK article

body:
I second Vicki's motion.
Zoe
 Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org> wrote:At 08:26 PM 3/18/03 -0800, you wrote:
>I realize after the fact, what a terrible choice [[Death to Kikes]] was for
>an article... I vote that we delete it along with [[Aids Kills Fags Dead]],
>and write up simple formal policy that limits the use of ethnic, racial, or
>hate slurs in article titles to general and topical ones. I apologise for
>this error, and trust that we can come closer to understanding what
>collegiality and cooperation mean, particularly in debates where issues of
>consistency and respect are involved. -Steven Vertigo

How about an apology for your anti-Semitism and blatant trolling, Steve?
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030319/24935d9b/attachment.htm


body:
Please cite one example of when he has tried?  He was banned as Lir for his lack of cooperation.  He was banned as Vera Cruz for his lack of cooperation.  He was given several opportunities to anounce on this very list that he would change, and refused to do so.  He came in as Susan Mason and began making demands that several article titles be changed just because he wanted them changed, just as he had done as Lir, when he demanded that all names of foreigners be written by their names in their native languages, rather than by their names as they're known by English speakers.
That's several chances, and he's blown it every time.  Again, how many does he need?
Zoe
 Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
Although I have not spent a lot of time on the "hot" issues, I become
more than a little annoyed with the perpetual obsessive sniping over Lir
and his/her several reincarnations. These often seem founded on the
principle that if you barely suspect that Lir is involved then a
presumption of guilt must apply. There is absolutely no room for Lir to
redeem himself, no matter how much he tries.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030319/d61dd24a/attachment.htm


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re. Susan Mason, I'm not clear what the problem is

body:
How many freaking times do we have to go over this?
Zoe
 Graham Burnett <grahamburnett at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> >>Any last words, before I disable the Susan Mason account, anybody?
> >>
> Although I have not spent a lot of time on the "hot" issues, I become
> more than a little annoyed with the perpetual obsessive sniping over Lir
> and his/her several reincarnations. These often seem founded on the
> principle that if you barely suspect that Lir is involved then a
> presumption of guilt must apply. There is absolutely no room for Lir to
> redeem himself, no matter how much he tries.
>

What did Lir do that was so awful that they can't be redeemed? What has
Susan Mason done that warrants theri account being disabled? I followed bits
of the edit war over the Rachel Corrie page (though granted not the whole
thing), I thought Susan Mason conducted herself very civilly in the face of
the other person who was shouting at her and making all sorts of allegations
from a clearly POV position. SM was also POV but seemed to be more able to
compromise tahn the other person. Susan mason is certainly less troublesome
and making more valuable contributions than say, User:Michael, who seems to
have been let off the hook for his transgressions...

Or am I missing something?

cheers Graham (aka Quercus Robur)

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030319/a68fbe16/attachment.htm


subject: [WikiEN-l] Slogan policy

body:
Double quotes don't work in heading titles.
Zoe
 "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:I like Toby's idea of punctuating the slogan articles with quotes in the article title ("double quotes" floats my boat higher than 'single quotes', if we're gonna do this, because users searching Google are more likely to recognize it as "quoted text" that way).

If someone will change the existing 4 article titles...

hint, hint

Lazy Uncle
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030319/9db23924/attachment.htm


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: I am trying get this running on Windows XP

body:
Rather than to the emergency fix-Wikipedia address, please send
correspondance about the software internals to the developers' list at
wikitech-l at wikipedia.org. (CC'd)

Also, if running a public server, please change the error message in
DatabaseFunctions.php to list an appropriate contact address. We won't be
very happy to get a dozen worried e-mails from random people that _your_
site is down, and it won't help inform you. :)

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, Timothy Taylor Moermond wrote:
> Warning: mysql_pconnect() [function.mysql-pconnect
> <http://www.php.net/function.mysql-pconnect> ]: Access denied for user:
> 'wikiuser at localhost' (Using password: YES) in
> c:\inetpub\wwwroot\phpwiki\newcodebase\DatabaseFunctions.php on line 26
> Could not connect to DB on 127.0.0.1

Is mysql set up correctly? Did you use the right password? Is the user set
up with appropriate access with the database? Is it named correctly? Did
you use maintnenance/wikiuser.sql with appropriate local changes to
configure the user for access to the database?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: tarquin

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: The dangers of bots, and robustness of the
 system

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>I also found that the rollback feature can cause trouble in these situations
>since it blindly reverts the top edit and doesn't track /who/ made the top
>edit. So on a couple dozen occasions that night I accidently resurrected the
>vandal's edits because because somebody else had reverted the article a
>second before I hit "rollback."
>
>
>
I have had seen this too.
this is an important bug -- has it been submitted to the Authorities?

(and yeah, it's cool how fast damage is fixed by everybody! yay for us! :-)


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Slogan policy (was: DTK article)

body:
Did you just say you hate all jews?!

>As for my anti-Semitism... Im guess I'm in a good company with Chomsky,
>Avnery,  and countless other paragons of intellect and truthspeak.. not to
>mention Jesus... all Jews, by the way..  Read attachment: As for not
>reading
>my mind... We would have to be on the same *page for that to be true...
>-SV

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


subject: [WikiEN-l] Vicki's Question

body:
> >  Allow me instead of simply giving you a fish, teach
> >you *how to fish, and ask you to figure it out: 1. Stevertigo incessantly
> >quotes Chomsky, Einstein, Robert Zimmerman,.. thinks Rachmaninoff
surpassed
> >all composers, loved Shindler's List, and am waiting eagerly for
Occupation
> >101...   Can you fish? -SV
>
> No, you sanctimonious idiot, I cannot fish: I am sitting in front of a
> computer, after
> dark, and it's close to freezing out there next to the river. Nor do I
have
> rod and
> reel.
> I can ask a simple question. You appear unable or unwilling to answer it.
Your
> position on the US invasion of Iraq--if that's what you mean by
"Occupation
> 101"--has  nothing to do with the matter.

No, Occupation 101 is about Israels occupation of Palestine: "Kosovo without
TV cameras" as a good Ha'aretz reporter put it.

> Don't be surprised if your repeated refusal to say that you aren't a
Jew-hater
> makes people suspect that you are.
> (Sorry, Ed, I can't always be the least offensive person on the list.)

I havent "answered" your question mostly because the question is *insincere,
*disingenous, *pointless, *ill-founded, and *slanderous in its own right,
and deserves no justice by being responded to... Although....  I actually
think that your directness makes you *less than offensive; because being
direct is a good step toward sincere, and sincerity breeds truth.  Since you
*refuse to put 2 and 2 together, or simply cant bring yourself to believe
that the answer is 4... I'll spell it out for you Vicki... I am not a
racist.

I am not against Judaism, nor do I harbor generalized derogative opinions of
Jews or any other ethnic group. I don't believe that anti-Jewish hatespeech
has any basis other than xenophobic and economic anger.  By my regular and
cordial discourse and association with people who are no less Jewish than
yourself, you should understand this, and you should know how offensive it
is that you should say that I am a racist.

I am happy and glad that you are a direct and sincere person, Vicki, and
clearly curious as to my humble views. You are a generally sweet person.
Thank you for not here trying to make the stupid claim that anti-Semitism is
a *special kind of discrimination, (distinct from racism; and deserving
*special treatment). And thank you for not saying that anyone who disagrees
with US-sponsored racist-Israeli apartheid is an anti-Semite. I hope this
answers all your questions. -Sanctimonious, yet Uber-understanding, Steven


from_name: Tom Parmenter

subject: [Wikipedia-l] space after headings

in_reply_to:
<3E78A2EA.1080405@planetunreal.com> (message from tarquin on Wed,
	19 Mar 2003 17:03:38 +0000)

body:
|From: tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com>
|X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:03:38 +0000
|
|have we worked out what do to about this?
|
|I propose:
|
|1. no space after headings -- only before (looks cleaner in text -- the
|heading belongs to what is below it)
|

half a space after headings
|
|2. special "compact" headings with no space after OR before get special
|markup, say
|
|== compact heading ==!
|
no space after headings

|
|_______________________________________________
|Wikipedia-l mailing list
|Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
|


subject: [Wikipedia-l] space after headings

body:
have we worked out what do to about this?

I propose:

1. no space after headings -- only before (looks cleaner in text -- the
heading belongs to what is below it)

2. special "compact" headings with no space after OR before get special
markup, say

== compact heading ==!


body:
  Funny, but I agree with the last one, about foreign names... The UN is undertaking a common-names project... it seems Anglocentrist to keep Anglifying names...
  Of course Adam usually never *discussed* his ideas before setting about changing things.... SV

  ZOe: Please cite one example of when he has tried?  He was banned as Lir for his lack of cooperation.  He was banned as Vera Cruz for his lack of cooperation.  He was given several opportunities to anounce on this very list that he would change, and refused to do so.  He came in as Susan Mason and began making demands that several article titles be changed just because he wanted them changed, just as he had done as Lir, when he demanded that all names of foreigners be written by their names in their native languages, rather than by their names as they're known by English speakers.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030319/a3fea29b/attachment.htm


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On Wed, 2003-03-19 at 17:17, Stevertigo wrote:
> No, Daniel. Thats not what it says. Ask someone to interpret it for you
> before you make insinuations that you should regret..-SV
>
He didn't make any insinuations.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] LittleDan's question

body:
He just did ask. C'mon, Steve, be nice to the kid, and answer his question.

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Stevertigo [mailto:stevertigo at attbi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:17 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Slogan policy (was: DTK article)

No, Daniel. Thats not what it says. Ask someone to interpret it for you
before you make insinuations that you should regret..-SV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <name12323 at hotmail.com>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Slogan policy (was: DTK article)

> Did you just say you hate all jews?!
>
> >As for my anti-Semitism... Im guess I'm in a good company with Chomsky,
> >Avnery,  and countless other paragons of intellect and truthspeak.. not
to
> >mention Jesus... all Jews, by the way..  Read attachment: As for not
> >reading
> >my mind... We would have to be on the same *page for that to be true...
> >-SV
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

body:
I have a few questions about NPOV:

Is it POV to classify something as a pseudoscience (and say that it's
definitely not true)?
Is it POV to say that communism never works in practice? (or something
similar)
Is it POV to only list some of the facts (by accident or on purpose) leading
someone to believe one point of view?
Is it POV to use words that can be '''interperated''' as insulting?

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


subject: [WikiEN-l] Annual or semi-annual conference

body:
Should we make some sort of signup list?

>If we hold the conference in New York City, I can arrange
>space at the New Yorker Hotel, which one block away from
>Penn Station. If you're coming by train, Penn Station is
>probably more convenient than Grand Central.
>
>Depending on the number of people, I can get a banquet
>room (holds up to 200 people) or just a friend's
>conference room (up to 20 people). Either way, there
>will be plenty of Internet bandwidth to go around!
>
>Let's make it happen, people!
>
>Uncle Ed

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

body:
Smart lad: these are all good questions. They cut right to the heart of the matter (I'll let the others take a crack at them first).

Lazy Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Ehrenberg [mailto:name12323 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:30 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

I have a few questions about NPOV:

Is it POV to classify something as a pseudoscience (and say that it's
definitely not true)?
Is it POV to say that communism never works in practice? (or something
similar)
Is it POV to only list some of the facts (by accident or on purpose) leading
someone to believe one point of view?
Is it POV to use words that can be '''interperated''' as insulting?


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

body:
At 02:17 PM 3/19/03 -0800, Stevertigo wrote:
>No, Daniel. Thats not what it says. Ask someone to interpret it for you
>before you make insinuations that you should regret..-SV

He asked you a *question*, in the name of all that's holy. Have you
considered the merits of restating what you meant, when it's unclear, instead
of being condescending to everyone else?

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <name12323 at hotmail.com>
>To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 1:58 PM
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Slogan policy (was: DTK article)
>
>
> > Did you just say you hate all jews?!
> >
> > >As for my anti-Semitism... Im guess I'm in a good company with Chomsky,
> > >Avnery,  and countless other paragons of intellect and truthspeak.. not
>to
> > >mention Jesus... all Jews, by the way..  Read attachment: As for not
> > >reading
> > >my mind... We would have to be on the same *page for that to be true...
> > >-SV
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> > http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


body:
Anyone interested in my organizing such a conference, please write to the list or e-mail me directly.

Ed Poor, aka "Uncle Ed" or "Lazy Uncle Ed"

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Ehrenberg [mailto:name12323 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:31 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Annual or semi-annual conference

Should we make some sort of signup list?

>If we hold the conference in New York City, I can arrange
>space at the New Yorker Hotel, which one block away from
>Penn Station. If you're coming by train, Penn Station is
>probably more convenient than Grand Central.
>
>Depending on the number of people, I can get a banquet
>room (holds up to 200 people) or just a friend's
>conference room (up to 20 people). Either way, there
>will be plenty of Internet bandwidth to go around!
>
>Let's make it happen, people!
>
>Uncle Ed


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

> I have a few questions about NPOV:
>
> Is it POV to classify something as a pseudoscience (and say that it's
> definitely not true)?

Yes!  Even a noted skeptic like Michael Shermer is very careful about
using the word.  Pseudoscience literaly means false science.  In reality
many of the subject areas popularly encompased by the term have never
been proven true to the satisfaction of the traditional scientific
community.  To say that not proven equates to proven false is to apply
the fallacy of the excluded middle that is often phrased "If you're not
with us you're against us."  A great deal of this material is on the
fringes of science, and most will likely never become accepted truth,
but it is presumptuous to know or say exactly what part is false.  Quite
often there is a tiny kernal of truth that has been distorted out of all
recognition by supporters and detractors alike.  The term
"pseudoscience" is as much a pejorative as "kike" or "faggot" which have
been discussed in a concurrent thread

> Is it POV to say that communism never works in practice? (or something
> similar)

Yes!  Even more because of the word "never" than because of the word
"communism".  It's beside the point that the statement is dead wrong.
 "Never" and "Always" are two absolute concepts that challenge an
opponent to produce a single counterexample   That's all it takes to
disprove them..

> Is it POV to only list some of the facts (by accident or on purpose)
> leading someone to believe one point of view?

A qualified yes.  You can't be expected to produce opposing facts that
you don't know anything about.  It's also intellectually dishonest when
you wilfully ignore facts contrary to your belief.  But the attached
blame is very limited.  If I know Wikipedians, theres's always someone
ready, willing and able to entusiastically present the opposing POV.
 The problem comes when you don't give the other person's contribution
it's due consideration.

> Is it POV to use words that can be '''interperated''' as insulting?

Yes.  Words can be powerful if you use them well.  In a military
operation between two countries you can say the A annexed B or that A
liberated B with very different effects.  It is very common for people
to choose words that will accentuate a point of view.

Eclecticology


body:
At 02:55 PM 3/19/03 -0800, you wrote:
> > He asked you a *question*, in the name of all that's holy. Have you
> > considered the merits of restating what you meant, when it's unclear,
>instead
> > of being condescending to everyone else?
>
>Well, I just did. And now maybe you can answer mine, Vicki:
>
>From: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030317/168/3jger.html
>
>...Settlers in Kiryat Arba also marked Monday the 9th anniversary of an
>attack by Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish doctor and a Kiryat Arba settler who
>killed 29 Palestinian worshippers in a 1994 shooting attack. (AP Photo/
>Ariel Schalit)
>
>In a Mosque, I might add. Is this anti-Arabist? -SV

I'd say it was anti-Moslem, primarily.

"He did it too" is no defense. I have never defended, and will never defend,
Baruch Goldstein.

I will ask you this: are you an anti-Jewish racist? Yes or no? You've pointed
out that the false accusation of racism is a serious matter. You've also
carefully
avoided denying that you are a racist of this particular type.

That the accusation of racism can be made falsely does not excuse racism
or mean that there is no such thing. A malicious person could falsely accuse
me of murder. That doesn't mean that murder has never happened.

>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikipedia-l] space after headings

body:
> (tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com>):
>
> the basic idea is that stray empty lines (which are often added to wiki
> markup after headings for legibility of the markup) no longer make
> presentation alterations.

It is my intent that the presence or absence of a blank line in between
a header and the following paragraph should make no difference at all
in the resulting output, which should be a header element followed by
a paragraph element.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: space after headings

in_reply_to:
<3E78A2EA.1080405@planetunreal.com> (tarquin's message of "Wed,
 19 Mar 2003 17:03:38 +0000")

body:
tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> writes:

> 1. no space after headings -- only before (looks cleaner in text -- the
>    heading belongs to what is below it)
>
> 2. special "compact" headings with no space after OR before get special
>    markup, say
>
> == compact heading ==!

Care about contents, not about layout ;)

If you want a "compact heading" it's most probably not a section, but a
simple keyword for a list; make it bold and your are done:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- cut here -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

'''Current status:'''

;xxx : ready
;yyy : in the works
;zzz : obsolete

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- cut here -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

For more info cf. the bugs listed at:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keichwa

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: K Forstner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Summer 2003

body:
Apart from all the conferences and official meetings -- any Wikipedian
planning to spend a day or two in Vienna, Austria this summer (or at any
other time of the year), just contact me and we'll have a beer together (or
any other drink of your choice).

Kurt Forstner aka KF


from_name: Timothy Taylor Moermond

subject: [Wikitech-l] RE: I am trying get this running on Windows XP

body:
As far as I can tell MySql is running correctly. I have already setup
phpMySqlAdmin and created the users wikiuser and wikiadmin and gave them
permission to do anything with the wikidb. The createdb function in the
wiki newcodebase maintenance section seemed to create the database
without any problems. However whenever I try to launch wiki.phtml or
rebuild the database I get and error like the one below.

Sorry about the confusion on where I sent the problem, I used the link
in the error page. This is not a publicly available website. I will
change the contact information.

Thank you for your assistance.

Tim Moermond

-----Original Message-----
From: Brion Vibber [mailto:vibber at aludra.usc.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:32 PM
To: Timothy Taylor Moermond
Cc: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: I am trying get this running on Windows XP

Rather than to the emergency fix-Wikipedia address, please send
correspondance about the software internals to the developers' list at
wikitech-l at wikipedia.org. (CC'd)

Also, if running a public server, please change the error message in
DatabaseFunctions.php to list an appropriate contact address. We won't
be
very happy to get a dozen worried e-mails from random people that _your_
site is down, and it won't help inform you. :)

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, Timothy Taylor Moermond wrote:
> Warning: mysql_pconnect() [function.mysql-pconnect
> <http://www.php.net/function.mysql-pconnect> ]: Access denied for
user:
> 'wikiuser at localhost' (Using password: YES) in
> c:\inetpub\wwwroot\phpwiki\newcodebase\DatabaseFunctions.php on line
26
> Could not connect to DB on 127.0.0.1

Is mysql set up correctly? Did you use the right password? Is the user
set
up with appropriate access with the database? Is it named correctly? Did
you use maintnenance/wikiuser.sql with appropriate local changes to
configure the user for access to the database?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Vicki's Question

body:
At 03:48 PM 3/19/03 -0800, Stevertigo wrote:
> > Vicki exasperated: I will ask you this: are you an anti-Jewish racist? Yes
>or no?
> > You've pointed
> > out that the false accusation of racism is a serious matter. You've also
> > carefully
> > avoided denying that you are a racist of this particular type.
> >
> > That the accusation of racism can be made falsely does not excuse racism
> > or mean that there is no such thing. A malicious person could falsely
>accuse
> > me of murder. That doesn't mean that murder has never happened.
>
>Ah you *ask* finally.

Yes, I ask in words of one syllable, having given you previous chances to
tell the list that you aren't a racist. You continue not to answer.

>  Allow me instead of simply giving you a fish, teach
>you *how to fish, and ask you to figure it out: 1. Stevertigo incessantly
>quotes Chomsky, Einstein, Robert Zimmerman,.. thinks Rachmaninoff surpassed
>all composers, loved Shindler's List, and am waiting eagerly for Occupation
>101...   Can you fish? -SV

No, you sanctimonious idiot, I cannot fish: I am sitting in front of a
computer, after
dark, and it's close to freezing out there next to the river. Nor do I have
rod and
reel.

I can ask a simple question. You appear unable or unwilling to answer it. Your
position on the US invasion of Iraq--if that's what you mean by "Occupation
101"--has
nothing to do with the matter.

Don't be surprised if your repeated refusal to say that you aren't a Jew-hater
makes people suspect that you are.

(Sorry, Ed, I can't always be the least offensive person on the list.)

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: space after headings

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>1. no space after headings -- only before (looks cleaner in text -- the
>>   heading belongs to what is below it)
>>
>>2. special "compact" headings with no space after OR before get special
>>   markup, say
>>
>>== compact heading ==!
>>
>>
>
>Care about contents, not about layout ;)
>

hey you're preaching to the choir here!! :-)

...
actually, what we COULD do if the "compact" headings are only needed
inside tables is this:

td h* {
  /* no space before or after */
}

in the CSS stylesheet.

and have one markup fits all

>
>If you want a "compact heading" it's most probably not a section, but a
>simple keyword for a list; make it bold and your are done:
>
>
>


from_name: Axel Boldt

body:
--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> Please see the following articles. I wrote the first three, then
> renamed the last to conform to my proposed naming convention of
> [[Slogan:XYZ]].
>
> * [[Slogan:Power to the people]]
> * [[Slogan:Better dead than Red]]
> * [[Slogan:Kills Bugs Dead]]
> * [[Slogan:AIDS Kills Fags Dead]]

The colon may confuse readers (and the software?) into treating
"Slogan" as a name space. Also I think quotes would be in order. Since
double quotes are not available at this point, I'd prefer
[[Slogan 'Power to the people']].

Axel

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Stevertigo and anti-Semitism

body:
I am really having a tough time digesting all of
Stevertigo's barbs at Jews diatribes on this list.  His
obsession with Jews, and those who hate Jews, is the only
common link to his contributions to Wikipedia.

Do people here recall his attempts to promote Nazi
Holocaust deniers as mainstream academics that deserve
respect?  His repeated edits which attempt to deny that
anti-Semitism exists in many articles?  His attempts to
claim that anti-Semitism doesn't mean hatred of Jews at
all?  His constant Jew-baiting, where he lists a handful of
people that much of the Jewish community views as
anti-Jewish - whom he then presents as heros?

Does anyone here do constant atheist baiting? Christian
baiting?  Hindu baiting?  No. We only see Stevertigo's Jew
baiting...and it has been gooing on for quite some time.

Consider his newest post: He finds a handful of people of
Jewish descent who say anti-Jewish things, which many Jews
find anti-Semitic. Stevertigo quotes them, promotes them
for the sole purpose of attacking Jews, yet then claims
that he can't be anti-Semitic, because they are Jews, and
Jews cannot be anti-Semitic. Is anyone fooled by this
childish wordplay?

Stevertigo writes:
> But, Dan, its not right to call someone a *racist, if
> they are not a racist, now is it? Add to this the fact
> that Jews these days call other Jews anti-Jewish?
> (anti-Semite) Does this make sense? Can a Black man say :
> "This man is racist against black people"  if the person
> hes talking about is Black too?

By the way, Stevertigo himself knows that his claims are
false.  A phenomenom common to many ethnic and national
groups is the existence of self-hatred.

"There is little doubt that psychologically, racism is
harmful to its victims. The most profound effect associated
with situations of extreme degradation (such as is found
under slavery or in concentration camps or in racist states
like South Africa) is the acceptance by the oppressed group
of the dominant group's definition of the situation. This
is the phenomenon of self-hatred found, for example, in
cases of Jewish anti-Semitism or in the acceptance by
blacks of white aesthetic criteria of having straight hair
or a light skin. Self-hatred is often accompanied by
symptoms of apathy, anxiety, and depression or by forms of
self-destructive escapist reactions such as alcoholism or
drug addiction or, in extreme cases, by paranoid,
schizophrenic or manic depressive psychoses. In such
situations of extreme degradation then, the oppressed group
frequently reacts in an 'intropunitive' fashion; that is,
it turns its frustrations inwardly against the self or the
'in' group at large."
(Source: Racism And Its Effects, Shreya Khatau)

Examples of people who are sometimes considered Jewish
anti-Semites are Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak. Referring
to works by Israel Shahak and others, The ADL's report on
The Talmud and Anti-Semitism states "In distorting the
normative meaning of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers
frequently remove passages from their textual and
historical context....Those who attack the Talmud
frequently cit ancient rabbinic sources without noting
subsequent developments in Jewish thought....Are the
polemicists Anti-Semites? This is a charged term that
should not be used lightly, but the answer, by and large,
is yes. Now and then a polemicist of this type may have
been bon Jewish, but their systematic distortion of the
ancient texts, always in the direction of portrarying
Judaism negatively, their lack of interest in good-faith
efforts to understand contemporary Judaism from
contemporary Jews, and their dimissal of any voices
opposing their own, suggests that their goal in reading
ancient rabbinic literature is to produce the Frankenstein
version of Judaism that they invariable claim to have
uncovered."

Chomsky and Shahak, not surprisingly, are about the only
people of Jewish descent that Stevertigo agrees with.  What
conclusion can one draw from this?

> What does it mean then to be called an anti-Semite?
> It means nothing... Its slander. Propaganda of insults.
> Thats all.

No, Stevertigo, the term is merely used to accurately
describe you.

RK

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

>? wrote

>>Is it POV to classify something as a pseudoscience (and say that it's
>>definitely not true)?

>Not if the something is truely a pseudoscience, as for example
>[[astrology]].

And say that it's definitely not true?  That's POV.
I don't think that astrology qualifies as a pseudoscience either,
since its practitioners don't traditionally claim to be scientists
(although some do *now*).

>>Is it POV to say that communism never works in practice? (or something
>>similar)

>No, just a simple fact-based observation.

A simple fact-based observation to prove a universal negative?
I'd say that a simple fact-based observation
is enough to show that it sometimes does work,
but rather than simply stating so, an article should present
examples that people claim is communism working in practice.

>>Is it POV to only list some of the facts (by accident or on purpose) leading
>>someone to believe one point of view?

>Yes, a lawyer's trick.

Also possibly a Wikipedian's trick that we should watch out for.
And perhaps the Wikipedian (or even lawyer?) doesn't realise it.
After all, if you believe something for certain reasons,
then those may be the only facts that you know to put in the article.

>>Is it POV to use words that can be '''interpreted''' as insulting?

>Yes, Dummy!

If a person is mentally retarded, then it may not be NPOV to say so,
and any way of saying it could be interpreted as insulting.
Nevertheless, deprecated terms like "moron"
(however correct they may be in their technical senses)
should be avoided in favor of those that haven't yet become
primarily words of insult, like "IQ below 70".
If there is any doubt what you mean by the term that you choose,
then you should explain what its neutral meaning is.

IMO.

-- Toby


from_name: Graham Burnett

body:
> >>Any last words, before I disable the Susan Mason account, anybody?
> >>
> Although I have not spent a lot of time on the "hot" issues, I become
> more than a little annoyed with the perpetual obsessive sniping over Lir
> and his/her several reincarnations.  These often seem founded on the
> principle that if you barely suspect that Lir is involved then a
> presumption of guilt must apply.  There is absolutely no room for Lir to
> redeem himself, no matter how much he tries.
>

What did Lir do that was so awful that they can't be redeemed? What has
Susan Mason done that warrants theri account being disabled? I followed bits
of the edit war over the Rachel Corrie page (though granted not the whole
thing), I thought Susan Mason conducted herself very civilly in the face of
the other person who was shouting at her and making all sorts of allegations
from a clearly POV position. SM was also POV but seemed to be more able to
compromise tahn the other person. Susan mason is certainly less troublesome
and making more valuable contributions than say, User:Michael, who seems to
have been let off the hook for his transgressions...

Or am I missing something?

cheers Graham (aka Quercus Robur)


subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

body:
Toby Bartels wrote:

>>>Is it POV to classify something as a pseudoscience (and say that it's
>>>definitely not true)?
>>>
>>Not if the something is truely a pseudoscience, as for example
>>[[astrology]].
>>
>And say that it's definitely not true?  That's POV.
>I don't think that astrology qualifies as a pseudoscience either,
>since its practitioners don't traditionally claim to be scientists
>(although some do *now*).
>
Claiming to be a scientist is a prerequisite to being a pseudoscientist.
 Some of those who now claim to be scientists really do try to use
scientific methods.  If experimental success were the deciding factor in
determining if someone is a scientist we would have far fewer scientists.

>>>Is it POV to use words that can be '''interpreted''' as insulting?
>>>
>>Yes, Dummy!
>>
>If a person is mentally retarded, then it may not be NPOV to say so,
>and any way of saying it could be interpreted as insulting.
>Nevertheless, deprecated terms like "moron"
>(however correct they may be in their technical senses)
>should be avoided in favor of those that haven't yet become
>primarily words of insult, like "IQ below 70".
>
The multitudes who consider George W. Bush to be a moron tend to apply
the popular meaning of that word instead of the technical one.

>


from_name: Geoff Burling

body:
I'm not one who was part of the Lir/Vera/Susan dispute, & I'll
admit that I'm ignorant of many of the more subtle & minor details
of this issue, but there are 3 very important points here that
means the person who is Lir/Vera/Susan will remain banned from
Wikipedia for the foreseeable future:

1) Jimmy Wales has stated that Lir/Vera/Susan is banned. And despite
what the rest of us may think, as long as Jimmy is paying for the
server & the bandwidth, he calls the rules. If you don't like that
fact, then come up with enough money so that Wikipedia won't
come to a sudden end if Jimmy decides to (literally) pull the plug &
spend his money on something he finds more rewarding.

(And I must needs add here that Jimmy is far more laid back &
understanding than I would ever be in his situation. One does not
accidentally piss off Jimmy -- one must make a concerted effort to
do so.)

2) There have been a number of efforts to get Lir/Vera/Susan to
discuss his/her reasons for his/her actions or opinions. The one
that made the most definite impression on me was when Ed Poor,
who had been in private discussion with Lir/Vera/Susan, tried to
get him/her to discuss his/her viewpoint with the peopel on this
mailling list. And Lir/Vera/Susan abruptly decided to be silent.

Now I'll admit that sometimes I'm struck dumb when I want to provide
a defense for my actions, but this was one of those ``put up or shut
up" moments: either Lir/Vera/Susan offered some kind of explanation
for his/her acts, or stopped entirely, out of shame or embarassment
for being unable to justify them. Lir/Vera/Susan has done neither.

3) Lastly, there are a lot of people here on Wikipedia who, frankly
speaking, consider Lir/Vera/Susan to be an asshole. Why would anyone
want to hang around a group of people who think she/he is an asshole?
Wikipedia is not the only game in town: there's the everything2
& the h2g2 projects. Lir/Vera/Susan could join either of
those, & prove he/she has reformed & is capable of making valuable
contributions there.

Now comes Zoe with her question:

> > How many freaking times do we have to go over this?

Unfortunately, as many times as Lir/Vera/Susan returns to Wikipedia
with a new name, & as many times as we have new contributors. Perhaps
we need an FAQ or similar document to help reduce the number of questions
about this unique individual.

Geoff


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Stevertigo and anti-Semitism

body:
>RK:I am really having a tough time digesting all of
> Stevertigo's barbs at Jews diatribes on this list.  His
> obsession with Jews, and those who hate Jews, is the only
> common link to his contributions to Wikipedia.
Ah. So in other words "I didnt bother to actually read what
Steve wrote, but I's sure it was Jew bashing from that anti-Semite." Sorry
Robert, Ive been cluing people into how the term anti-Semite is commonly
used to slander people who speak the truth about Israeli atrocities in the
name of Yahave.  Next question.

>RK: Do people here recall his attempts to promote Nazi
> Holocaust deniers as mainstream academics that deserve
> respect?  His repeated edits which attempt to deny that
> anti-Semitism exists in many articles?  His attempts to
> claim that anti-Semitism doesn't mean hatred of Jews at
> all?  His constant Jew-baiting, where he lists a handful of
> people that much of the Jewish community views as
> anti-Jewish - whom he then presents as heros?
None of this is true, of course. I did write an essay on David Irving which
essentially said 'for all of his Holocaust denials, at least he never killed
anyone, which is more than can be said for that IDF bulldozer driver that
murdered Rachel Corrie. Read your Ten Commandments baby...

>RK: Does anyone here do constant atheist baiting? Christian
> baiting?  Hindu baiting?  No. We only see Stevertigo's Jew
> baiting...and it has been gooing on for quite some time.

I  still dont understand the term "Jew baiting".  It sounds like something
southern Aryan racists might say... of course, Jewish American Zionists,
according to their literature dont consider racist Jew-hating White
Supremacists as "anti-Semitic" because many are close with Christian
Zionists... and its the liberal who considers Palestinians as actual human
beings who is the  "real anti-Semite" Jew hater.
( http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/ni/ni-c10-s20.html )

>RK:Consider his newest post: He finds a handful of people of
> Jewish descent who say anti-Jewish things, which many Jews
>find anti-Semitic. Stevertigo quotes them, promotes them
> for the sole purpose of attacking Jews, yet then claims
> that he can't be anti-Semitic, because they are Jews, and
> Jews cannot be anti-Semitic. Is anyone fooled by this
> childish wordplay?
No. Noone is fooled by your childish wordplay. They all actually read the
last posts, (tracing through the header-changes) and they know that you
obviously didnt.

>RK:By the way, Stevertigo himself knows that his claims are
> false.  A phenomenom common to many ethnic and >national  groups is the
existence of self-hatred.
Yes, and this would explain your behaviour, Roberticus.. I submit these
quotes from ( http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/19antis1.htm )
               "The assumption of an eternal anti-Semitism ... has been
adapted by a great many unbiased historians and by even a greater number of
Jews. It is this odd coincidence which makes the theory so very dangerous
and confusing. Its escapist basis is in both instances the same; just as
anti-Semites understandably desire to escape responsibility for their deeds,
so Jews, attacked and on the defensive, even more understandably, do not
wish to under any circumstances discuss their share of responsibility."
                                                               Hannah
Arendt, Origins, p. 7 (Jewish historian)
"For some Jews and perhaps some of the Jewish leadership, the fear is that
if anti-Semitism completely disappears then the Jewish community might erode
or dissolve."  Stanley Rothman, (in STALLSWORTH, p. 67)

>RK:Examples of people who are sometimes considered Jewish
> anti-Semites are Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak. Referring to works by
Israel Shahak and others, The ADL's >report on
> The Talmud and Anti-Semitism states "In distorting the
> normative meaning of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers
> frequently remove passages from their textual and
> historical context....Those who attack the Talmud
> frequently cit ancient rabbinic sources without noting
> subsequent developments in Jewish thought....Are the
> polemicists Anti-Semites? This is a charged term that
> should not be used lightly, but the answer, by and large,
> is yes. Now and then a polemicist of this type may have
> been bon Jewish, but their systematic distortion of the
> ancient texts, always in the direction of portrarying
> Judaism negatively, their lack of interest in good-faith
> efforts to understand contemporary Judaism from
> contemporary Jews, and their dimissal of any voices
> opposing their own, suggests that their goal in reading
> ancient rabbinic literature is to produce the Frankenstein
> version of Judaism that they invariable claim to have
> uncovered."
Rubbish. Utter rubbish. You refer to The ADL as an unbiased source??? "one
of the main pillars" of Israeli propaganda in the U.S., as the Israeli press
casually describes it." (Neccessary Illusions) Tell me, what do you think
about what Dennis Bernstien says:
"Everyone else is terrified. The only ones who begin to open their mouths
are the Jews in this country. You know, as a kid, I sent money to plant
trees in Israel. But now we are horrified by a government representing a
country that we grew up loving and cherishing. Israel's defenders have a
special vengeance for Jews who don't fall in line behind Sharon's
scorched-earth policy because they give the lie to the charge that Israel's
critics are simply anti-Semite."
(
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?dir=7&story=313235&ho
st=3&printable=1 )

>RK:Chomsky and Shahak, not surprisingly, are about the only
>> people of Jewish descent that Stevertigo agrees with.  What
>> conclusion can one draw from this?
No they are not. Im sure I agree with you on some issues. And now you admit:
your criteria for *who is anti-Semitic is directly linked to *which Jews
they do or do not agree with.  I see now. Thank you for clarifying, Robert.

>RK:No, Stevertigo, the term is merely used to accurately describe you.
Of course!!  I agree!!  It's a "term merely used" by racist Jewish bigots to
slander critical thinking people like me. Thank you and God bless.  :) -SV
Ps. I should add that Its Hanlon's Razor that allows me to respond in kind
to you RK, otherwise the Murphy's Law of: "never argue with a fool" would
forbid me.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Slogan policy (was: DTK article)

body:
> Ed Poor wrote:
>
> >How about some convention like "Slogan: XYZ" or "The slogan: 'XYZ'", as
in:
> >* [[Slogan: Death to Moonies]]
> >* [[The slogan: Moonies stink]]
>
> No, no, no! It should say "Death to Moonies, PLEASE." C'mon folks,
> let's try to show some proper MANNERS around this joint. ;)

And your sense of HUMOR is not lost on us Sheldon... :) -SV


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

body:
Ed Poor wrote:

>How about some convention like "Slogan: XYZ" or "The slogan: 'XYZ'", as in:
>* [[Slogan: Death to Moonies]]
>* [[The slogan: Moonies stink]]

No, no, no! It should say "Death to Moonies, PLEASE." C'mon folks,
let's try to show some proper MANNERS around this joint. ;)
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: koyaanis qatsi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Vicki's Question

body:
>Ah you *ask* finally. Allow me instead of simply
giving
>you a fish, teach you *how to fish, and ask you to
>figure it out: 1. Stevertigo incessantly
>quotes Chomsky, Einstein, Robert Zimmerman,.. thinks
>Rachmaninoff surpassed all composers, loved
Shindler's
>List, and am waiting eagerly for Occupation
>101...   Can you fish? -SV

I can fish, but I was out for bass and I think this
must be brim.  here's what's on the hook:

My mother has nearly every movie Whoopi Goldberg
starred in (yes, even the one where she becomes a
basketball coach).  I asked her about it once.  Her
response was that she doesn't consider Whoopi black.
There are people that she considers black, and it's
apparent she doesn't like them (though it's not
apparent why).  She clutches her purse more closely
when a black man gets on the elevator, and she has
this odd fondness for the word "nigger." Unless, that
is, there are black people around; then she's
friendly, cheerful--obsequious even--and remains so
until they leave.

I'm not sure why that occurred to me, as you hardly
seem the obsequious type.

kq

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] space after headings

body:
Tom Parmenter wrote:

>|
>|have we worked out what do to about this?
>|
>|I propose:
>|
>|1. no space after headings -- only before (looks cleaner in text -- the
>|heading belongs to what is below it)
>|
>
>half a space after headings
>|
>|2. special "compact" headings with no space after OR before get special
>|markup, say
>|
>|== compact heading ==!
>|
>no space after headings
>
>
>
I'm happy with that :-)

the basic idea is that stray empty lines (which are often added to wiki
markup after headings for legibility of the markup) no longer make
presentation alterations.

>
>
>


from_name: Tom Parmenter

subject: [Wikipedia-l] space after headings

in_reply_to:
<3E790140.9040002@planetunreal.com> (message from tarquin on Wed,
	19 Mar 2003 23:46:08 +0000)

body:
|From: tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com>
|X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 23:46:08 +0000
|
|
|
|Tom Parmenter wrote:
|
|>|
|>|have we worked out what do to about this?
|>|
|>|I propose:
|>|
|>|1. no space after headings -- only before (looks cleaner in text -- the
|>|heading belongs to what is below it)
|>|
|>
|>half a space after headings
|>|
|>|2. special "compact" headings with no space after OR before get special
|>|markup, say
|>|
|>|== compact heading ==!
|>|
|>no space after headings
|>
|>
|>
|I'm happy with that :-)
|
|the basic idea is that stray empty lines (which are often added to wiki
|markup after headings for legibility of the markup) no longer make
|presentation alterations.
|
|
|
|
|>
|>
|>
|
|
|_______________________________________________
|Wikipedia-l mailing list
|Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
|

Presence or absence of white space after a header is part of the
information content.  A half-space of white before the text, says this
header precedes something to read, while the closed up header says
that header is being used, in effect, as table header, not in a table,
but as part of a more tight-knit a matrix of information.

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88


body:
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 16:15:41 -0800 (PST)
> From: Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re. Susan Mason, I'm not clear what the problem is
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>
> --0-1802592526-1048119341=:49858
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> How many freaking times do we have to go over this?
> Zoe

Well I'm quite new to this mailing list, so forgive my ignorance, but it
seems that alot goes on 'behind the scenes' of wikipedia here, so again I'll
repeat my question, what did Lir do that made them so utterly iredeemable
(this is a genuine question, not rhetoric), and what is so wrong with Susan
Mason's edits? I just did a random trawl through a selection of SM's
contributions and they seem basically OK to me. She is alot more useful,
constructive and coherent than Micheal who is a complete nuisance who has to
be cleaned up after all the time (not that I want him banned either).

If Zoe doesn't have the patience to explain what is obviously utter crystal
clear to everybody else perhaps somebody else could spare a few seconds,
thanks,

Graham (Quercus Robur)


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Stevertigo and anti-Semitism

body: This exchange really does not belong on the mailing list.


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
On Wednesday 19 March 2003 09:23 pm, Graham Burnett wrote:
> Well I'm quite new to this mailing list, so forgive my ignorance, but it
> seems that alot goes on 'behind the scenes' of wikipedia here,

Behind the scenes? This is a publicly readable, unmoderated mailing list that
is open to anybody with an email account. In addition, a link is on the Main
Page says "Mailing lists" and you might have noticed the same link at the top
of Recent Changes. Oh and on the "Mailing lists" page is a direct link to the
archives where every single post that has ever been made resides - we hide
nothing here.

Now how in the world is that behind the scenes? Saying this is "behind the
scenes" is like saying the the general proceedings of the US Congress are
behind the scenes just because you don't bother to watch CSPAN (yeah I know,
not everybody who can vote has cable, but everybody who contributes to
Wikipedia has access to an Internet connection so our proceeding are in fact
/more/ open than Congress - that's not to say that we shouldn't become more
open).

> so again
> I'll repeat my question, what did Lir do that made them so utterly
> iredeemable (this is a genuine question, not rhetoric), and what is so
> wrong with Susan Mason's edits? I just did a random trawl through a
> selection of SM's contributions and they seem basically OK to me. She is
> alot more useful, constructive and coherent than Micheal who is a complete
> nuisance who has to be cleaned up after all the time (not that I want him
> banned either).

Lir is a troll - plain and simple. IMO Vera and Susan are just /really/
annoying but since it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Vera Cruz =
Lir /and/ Vera acted in a similar way (albeit not as bad IMO) then that is
why Vera was banned (We know Lir = Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] and that the email account
Vera used was registered to a Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]). I'm not so sure about Susan's
ban but if Susan = Lir then I guess the ban is valid (I don't have a strong
opinion on that one way or the other).

> If Zoe doesn't have the patience to explain what is obviously utter crystal
> clear to everybody else perhaps somebody else could spare a few seconds,
> thanks,
>
> Graham (Quercus Robur)

The case for Lir is very clear, crystal you might say. I in fact was one of
the people who advocated banning Lir. But I've been largely silent about Vera
and Susan because as bad as they were/are they both are improvements over
Lir's outrageous behavior (I do believe that Susan = Lir but I haven't seen
undeniable evidence for this yet - but she does tend to stir-up more than her
fair share of trouble).

Below are links to the archives with the relevant subject titles below the
links - happy reading (you could have just as easily looked this up BTW -
that is one reason why some people have been impatient with these types of
questions):

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2002-November/subject.html
129.186.80.133 (aka Lir)
lir collateral damage: Stop! In the name of love
Lir and Wikipetiquette
Lir needs to go
RE: Lir needs to go
My vacation, dealing with Lir
Re: [Wikipedia-l] My vacation, dealing with Lir
Re: This whole Lir and Americanization thing

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2002-November/subject.html
Lir yet again
Lir's demands
Lir, yet again.
O.k., let's ban Lir
why am I banned? :<

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-January/subject.html
vera cruz is a troll

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/subject.html
"Susan Mason"
Please let Lir back
Please don't let Lir back
The Lir situation
User banned, why?
User:Vera Cruz
Vera Cruz is up to her old bad habits already

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-March/subject.html
Problems with Susan Mason

And of course, Susan Mason, I'm not clear what the problem is,
Re. Susan Mason, I'm not clear what the problem is and
Susan Mason banned (was: User:RachelCorrie)

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 16]]


subject: [WikiEN-l] stevertigo

body:
> This exchange really does not belong on the mailing list.

You are right. I feel extremely insulted when people slander me as a racist,
because its a lie. I have no choice but to fight it. These are issues of too
much passion to deal with on a mailing list. And they were a completely
unsucessful in my original intent to remove the AKFD article. I had hoped
making an analogy of discrimination would work; to make people see that all
similar articles should be removed. But no-one even understood the point. I
apologize to all parties involved, and will quit Wikipedia immediately. Ive
been online too damn much these days anyway. -SV


subject: [WikiEN-l] Slander against scientists

body:
Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> writes:

> Yes!  Even a noted skeptic like Michael Shermer is very
> careful about using the word.  Pseudoscience literaly
> means false science.

Stop playing word games.  Pseudoscience has a much wider
meaning than that. In any case, mainstream scientists and
skeptics use this word quite a bit.  They only use this
word, of course, when there is no other alternative.

>  In reality many of the subject areas popularly
> encompased by the term have never been proven true to
> the satisfaction of the traditional scientific
> community.  To say that not proven equates to proven
> false is to apply the fallacy of the excluded middle
> that is often phrased "If you're not with us you're
> against us."

Untrue. This not how science works, or how the skeptical
community deals with claims of the paranormal.  Propoents
of pseudosceince are unable to defend themselves from the
actual claims that scientists make, so they create a
straw-man carcicature of science, and attack that strawman.
That is shameful.

> The term "pseudoscience" is as much a pejorative
> as "kike" or "faggot" which have been discussed in a
> concurrent thread

That's a bald-faced lie, and an attempt to slander
scientists.  I am shocked at the hateful way that
proponents of pseudoscience claim to be victims of
religious-like discrimination.  The truth is that
proponents of pseudoscience push statements that can not be
proven, and when scientifically analyzed in controlled
studies, are found to be false - or fraudulent.

I am appalled that you publicly slander scientists, instead
of dealing with the issues.

RK

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] DTK article

in_reply_to: <002d01c2ee44$d6260d40$c679e90c@attbi.com>; from stevertigo@attbi.com on Wed, Mar 19, 2003 at 10:24:53AM -0800

body:
Stevertigo wrote:
> Cuncators Sysop status is directly at odds with his heavy handed
> behaviour regarding this page - contradiction Jim's notions that
> sysops stay neutral.

Are you accusing him of using sysop powers "in a fight" or merely of
using ordinary wiki editing in a way that you don't like?

Sysops are held to a high level of accountability for using sysop
powers, as they are supposed to be only "technical".  But we are *all*
held to a high level of accountability for ordinary editing, and there
is no leeway for non-sysops on this.

> Dont expect the answer to come from the top...
> Jim stays neutral because hes hoping people can find resolutions on their
> own...  You comprende, Victoria? -SV

I generally find that if I keep my mouth shut for awhile, NPOV
emerges.  In this cases, we went over all this with the "Aids" slogan,
and I thought the result was fine.  I said my piece there.

Some slogans, even hateful slogans, are of sufficient historical (or
other) importance that they can deserve a separate article.  The Aids
Kills Fags Dead slogan is a great example.  When I first heard about
the page, I thought, "Oh gosh, that doesn't sound like a valid article
at all."  But then I read the article and realized that it was a
legitimate topic.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

in_reply_to: <F123BIYsOocDl5sF78N0000778b@hotmail.com>; from name12323@hotmail.com on Wed, Mar 19, 2003 at 05:29:45PM -0500

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> Is it POV to classify something as a pseudoscience (and say that it's
> definitely not true)?

It's better to accurately summarize or characterize something as
"widely considered by mainstream scientists to be pseudoscience".
References are helpful.

> Is it POV to say that communism never works in practice? (or something
> similar)

It's better to soften the claim to an extent that even a pro-Communist
could agree with it.  It's very vague to say "never works", for
example.  It would be better to simply point out that communist
societies have had some notable failures such as X, Y, and Z.

> Is it POV to only list some of the facts (by accident or on purpose) leading
> someone to believe one point of view?

Yes, but often this will happen out of simple ignorance on the part of
a well-intentioned contributor.  Deliberately omitting facts in an
effort to mislead, yes, that's bad mojo.

> Is it POV to use words that can be '''interperated''' as insulting?

Well, it's important that we be sensitive to possible insults, but at
the same time, we have to stake out the broad, sensible middle ground
and not be toooooo paranoid about "political correctness".

--Jimbo


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] stevertigo

body:
The AKFD article was removed. As to the slogans, folks seem to see some
value in them.

Fred

> From: "Stevertigo" <stevertigo at attbi.com>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:01:16 -0800
> To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] stevertigo
>
>> This exchange really does not belong on the mailing list.
>
> You are right. I feel extremely insulted when people slander me as a racist,
> because its a lie. I have no choice but to fight it. These are issues of too
> much passion to deal with on a mailing list. And they were a completely
> unsucessful in my original intent to remove the AKFD article. I had hoped
> making an analogy of discrimination would work; to make people see that all
> similar articles should be removed. But no-one even understood the point. I
> apologize to all parties involved, and will quit Wikipedia immediately. Ive
> been online too damn much these days anyway. -SV
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] We should not stifle legitimate scientific discussion

body:
It was proposed that the term "pseudoscience" has no
validity, and it was clearly implied that this word is
simply a hateful attack, like "kike" or "nigger".  I argued
against that position recently, and I do so again now, with
support:

The position I disagreed with was an attempt to stifle
legitimate scientific discussion of controversial issues.
I strongly urge Wiki Users to read some of the articles
below - yet not for the article content as such. Rather, I
want to illustrate that the term "pseudoscience" has a
specific use, and is used in a scientific context. It is
not hatespeech; it in fact has a legitimate use.  This word
should not be banned from our vocabulary.

Why is pseudoscience dangerous?
http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-07/dangerous.html

Biomagnetic pseudoscience
http://www.csicop.org/si/9807/magnet2.html

Afrrocentrism and pseudoscience
http://www.csicop.org/si/9111/minority.html

Traditional medicine and pseudoscience in China
http://www.csicop.org/si/9607/china.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/9609/china.html

The New Paranatural Paradigm: Special APS Session Examines
Pseudoscience
http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-07/aps.html

RK

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] space after headings

body:
Tarquin wrote:

>1. no space after headings -- only before (looks cleaner in text -- the
>heading belongs to what is below it)

>2. special "compact" headings with no space after OR before get special
>markup, say
>== compact heading ==!

The most natural markup for the editor is to let
the absence or presence of a blank line indicate
the absence or presence of a space in the output.
This is true both before and after the header.

I am assuming that we have reason to allow both versions,
and the output should be given by style sheets
in preference to HTML kludges that don't even work in XHTML.
But we all know that.

-- Toby


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] LittleDan's question

body:
Steve,

Thanks for answering LittleDan's question. I was also
interested in the answer, as you surmised.

I agree that the word "anti-Semitic" is thrown around
an awful lot. My own church has been hit by charges
of anti-Semitism, despite what I regard as its
exceptionally clear commitment to Israel's well-being
and high regard for Jews and Judaism. Why, Abraham is
the "father of our faith" and both Jacob and Joseph
are considers models for us all to emulate in the
modern era.

Perhaps in Wikipedia articles we might devote less
time to determining whether a given figure or insti-
tution *is* anti-Semitic. It is much easier to say
that "so-and-so" considers X to be anti-Semitic, on
"thus-and-such" grounds; and leave it at that.

Really, we need a standard on political (and other)
labels.

Uncle Ed


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sheldon, LittleDan and communism

in_reply_to: <E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280F43E9@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>; from Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com on Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:29:27PM -0500

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> * the Wikipedia ought to assert the fact that communism
>   doesn't work, or
> * the Wikipedia ought to REPORT that various observers
>   have concluded that communism doesn't work
>
> My understanding of Jimbo's NPOV policy is that we should
> not assert communism's unworkableness as fact but rather
> report that observers say it doesn't work.

That's right.  As well as reporting on the responses of those who
think otherwise.

--Jimbo


body:
I like Axelboldt's idea of avoiding double quotes, and I guess there's no need for the colon if there are single quotes, so I'll change the article titles as suggested.

Sorry to Cunctator if he'd like the word "slogan" at the end of the title, but I think it would be less of a shock to Google surfers to put the "slogan" tag at the front. This will be especially useful for long, multi-word slogans such as:

[[Slogan 'The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer']]

...which refers to an economic principle espoused by many Marxists (and vigorously disputed by most free-market advocates).

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Axel Boldt [mailto:axelboldt at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:42 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Slogan policy (was: DTK article)

--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> Please see the following articles. I wrote the first three, then
> renamed the last to conform to my proposed naming convention of
> [[Slogan:XYZ]].
>
> * [[Slogan:Power to the people]]
> * [[Slogan:Better dead than Red]]
> * [[Slogan:Kills Bugs Dead]]
> * [[Slogan:AIDS Kills Fags Dead]]

The colon may confuse readers (and the software?) into treating
"Slogan" as a name space. Also I think quotes would be in order. Since
double quotes are not available at this point, I'd prefer
[[Slogan 'Power to the people']].

Axel

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: NPOV

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>  > Is it POV to say that communism never works in practice? (or something
>  > similar)

And Jimmy Wales responded:

>It's better to soften the claim to an extent that even a pro-Communist
>could agree with it.  It's very vague to say "never works", for
>example.  It would be better to simply point out that communist
>societies have had some notable failures such as X, Y, and Z.

The vagueness is what makes Daniel's statement indefensible. One
might as easily say that "Christianity never works in practice" or
"capitalism never works in practice." The statement is so broadly
worded that it is open to legitimate dispute on several definitional
grounds alone, e.g., "How do you define 'communism'?" or "What does
it mean to say that something 'works in practice'?" For example:

(1) Marxists make a clear definitional distinction between
"socialism" and "communism," and no communist regime has ever claimed
to actually *be* communist. The Soviet Union, for example, called
itself the "Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics." In Marxist theory,
socialism is viewed as a transitional social system that will
eventually give way to communism (once the state "withers away").
Obviously this theory is open to challenge, but the regimes that
collapsed in the former Soviet bloc were examples of what a member of
the Communist Party USA would call "actually existing socialism," not
"communism." From the point of view of Marxist theory, therefore,
communism has never "failed" because it has never yet *existed*.

(2) On the other hand, various non-Marxist definitions of communism
also exist. If we adopt some of those definitions, it is possible to
argue that communism has sometimes worked quite well. During the 19th
century, for example, members of the Mormon Church practiced a form
of religious communism known as the "United Order." Participants held
all property in common and acted in concert under the leadership of
religious authorities. Under this system, they successfully colonized
a large portion of the American west and accomplished things that no
one else was able to accomplish. (Mormons, for example, were the
first successful irrigators in the western United States.) Likewise,
there is the example of the Israeli kibbutz, as well as any number of
communes operating today in the United States and elsewhere that
practice some form of "communism." Just last month, a nonprofit
organization for which I volunteer received a check for $30,000 from
a guy who lives on a commune. If he's got that kind of money to send
our way, you'd have to conclude that his preferred brand of communism
works pretty well for him!

(3) Even under capitalism, there are many examples and forms of
successful community-based ownership. For example, some intellectual
works are in the public domain. (Depending on how you define
communism, Wikipedia itself could be characterized as an example of
"communism that works"!) Most industrialized nations outside the
United States have some form of socialized medicine, and the end
result seems to "work" pretty well. (Europeans have marginally better
longevity than U.S. citizens, while paying a third of what we spend
per capita on health care.)

(4) Finally, Daniel's original statement is terminally vague about
what it means to "work in practice." The Bolshevik revolution "worked
in practice" as a way of ending Russian participation in a
debilitating war. The Chinese Communist revolution "worked in
practice" at ending opium addiction (after Mao executed a million
addicts). It has also "worked in practice" for more than half a
century at achieving social stability and economic growth. Here, for
example, is how Wikipedia currently describes the achievements of the
regime:

>The large number of deaths during the period of consolidation of
>power after victory in the Chinese civil war paled in comparison to
>the number of deaths caused by famine, anarchy, war, and foreign
>invasion in the years before the Communists took power.
>
>Supporters of Mao point out that before 1949, for instance, the
>illiteracy rate in Mainland China was 80 percent, and life
>expectancy was a meager 35 years. At his death, illiteracy had
>declined to less than seven per cent, and average life expectancy
>had increased to more than 70 years. In addition, China's population
>which had remained constant at 400 million from the [[Opium War]] to
>the end of the [[Chinese Civil War|Civil War]], mushroomed to 700
>million as of Mao's death.
[SNIP]
>China, unlike virtually any other [[Third World]] nation, no longer
>has to fear the prospects of [[over-population]], [[malnutrition]],
>and famine in spite of the doubling of life expectancy during the
>Mao years. With population growth stabilized, China is sustaining
>one of the world's highest rates of per capita economic growth in
>the world.

DISCLAIMER: None of the above discussion should be interpreted to
mean that I endorse the economic policies, political philosophy or
repressive practices of the Chinese government. The point is not that
sweeping statements like the one that Daniel gave *are* POV because
they overgeneralize, ignoring facts and arguments that contradict the
generalization.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>Sheldon,
>
>The argument that "no communist regime has ever claimed
>to actually *be* communist" is already discussed in the
>Wikipedia article, and is IMHO opinion an example of
>exactly the sort of "disinformation" your other wiki
>is supposedly dedicated to exposing.
>
>Instead of trying to run verbal rings around LittleDan,
>why not take a moment to consider what he *meant*?
>
I don't think that Sheldon is doing that.  He's simply pointing out that
it's not a black and white issue, and that a lot depends on who is
defining the word.  It's quite natural for a person with pro-communist
leanings to define that word differently from an anti-communist, and for
both to be wrong.  LittleDan's question was straightforward, but truth
comes in many shades of grey.

>Which was, apparently:
>
>* putting communist ideas into effect by creating what
>  pro-Marxists might call "building socialism" in a country.
>
>The fact that these "socialist" experiments collapsed
>in the former Soviet bloc would seem to support the POV
>that communism never works in practice.
>
Absolutely false.  It only proves that it can't pursue its ideals at the
same time as it maintains an arms race.  The capitalist systems does
arms races much better.

>Anyway, the question is still whether:
>
>* the Wikipedia ought to assert the fact that communism
>  doesn't work, or
>* the Wikipedia ought to REPORT that various observers
>  have concluded that communism doesn't work
>
>My understanding of Jimbo's NPOV policy is that we should
>not assert communism's unworkableness as fact but rather
>report that observers say it doesn't work.
>
It's not really enough to use the bare phrase "observers say...".   In
the absence of knowing just who the observers are, you've just passed
the buck to somebody that can't be identified, and whose facts can't be
checked.

Eclecticology


body:
On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 06:00, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 March 2003 09:23 pm, Graham Burnett wrote:
> > Well I'm quite new to this mailing list, so forgive my ignorance, but it
> > seems that alot goes on 'behind the scenes' of wikipedia here,
>
> Behind the scenes? This is a publicly readable, unmoderated mailing list that
> is open to anybody with an email account. In addition, a link is on the Main
> Page says "Mailing lists" and you might have noticed the same link at the top
> of Recent Changes. Oh and on the "Mailing lists" page is a direct link to the
> archives where every single post that has ever been made resides - we hide
> nothing here.
>
> Now how in the world is that behind the scenes? Saying this is "behind the
> scenes" is like saying the the general proceedings of the US Congress are
> behind the scenes just because you don't bother to watch CSPAN (yeah I know,
> not everybody who can vote has cable, but everybody who contributes to
> Wikipedia has access to an Internet connection so our proceeding are in fact
> /more/ open than Congress - that's not to say that we shouldn't become more
> open).

Methinks he doth protest too much.


body:
Ed Poor wrote:

>The argument that "no communist regime has ever claimed
>to actually *be* communist" is already discussed in the
>Wikipedia article, and is IMHO opinion an example of
>exactly the sort of "disinformation" your other wiki
>is supposedly dedicated to exposing.

Which Wikipedia article -- [[Communism]]?
Not very coherent on this point -- or many others -- right now
(although I'm not sure how well I could improve it).
[[Socialism]] explains it better and agrees with Sheldon;
according to Marxist theory, communism has never existed.
(That leaves open the possibility of a Communist regime
disavowing Marxist theory in this respect.)

>Instead of trying to run verbal rings around LittleDan,
>why not take a moment to consider what he *meant*?
>Which was, apparently:
>* putting communist ideas into effect by creating what
>  pro-Marxists might call "building socialism" in a country.

I'm not sure that it's fair to Sheldon
to expect him to know that this is what LittleDan meant.
Part of Sheldon's point is that the meaning is unclear.

Unless LittleDan's post is coming from a specific article somewhere
that Sheldon knows about.  Is this what's going on?
Have we brought a dispute from an article talk page to the mailing list?

>The fact that these "socialist" experiments collapsed
>in the former Soviet bloc would seem to support the POV
>that communism never works in practice.

But not very well.
This is the problem with supporting a universal negative.
That China has *not* collapsed, and is doing relatively well,
is far more opposition to this universal negative
than the collapse of any number of Soviet republics.

>My understanding of Jimbo's NPOV policy is that we should
>not assert communism's unworkableness as fact but rather
>report that observers say it doesn't work.

This is the important point, and you are right.

-- Toby


body:
Robert wrote:

>It was proposed that the term "pseudoscience" has no
>validity, and it was clearly implied that this word is
simply a hateful attack, like "kike" or "nigger".

It's not a question of validity, but of whether Wikipedia
articles should flatly categorize any particular idea or
system as "pseudoscience".

My reading of Jimbo's NPOV policy is that the Wikipedia
should avoid drawing conclusions where there is signifi-
cant disagreement. Thus, I would prefer to see articles
on, say, chiropractic, say something like:

* "The Western medical establishment dismisses
  chiropractic as pseudoscience."

This clearly attributes the point of view (or POV) to its
advocate, leaving Wikipedia neutral on the issue.

Blandly,

Uncle Ed


body:
On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 09:27, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> I like Axelboldt's idea of avoiding double quotes, and I guess there's no need
> for the colon if there are single quotes, so I'll change the article titles as suggested.
>
> Sorry to Cunctator if he'd like the word "slogan" at the end of the title, > but I think it would be less of a shock to Google surfers to put the "slogan"
> tag at the front. This will be especially useful for long, multi-word slogans such as:
>
> [[Slogan 'The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer']]
>
Sorry to Ed, but he doesn't have any more authority than I do.

If he's going to change article titles around to what he thinks is
right, without discussing the issues behind them, so will I.

We should take a reality check and look at our standard naming policy.
We don't have [['A Tale of Two Cities' book]] or [[book 'A Tale of Two
Cities']], we have [[A Tale of Two Cities]]. We don't have [['Yesterday'
song]] or [[song 'Yesterday']] we have [[Yesterday]].

In the case where disambiguation is necessary, we don't have [[song
'American Pie']] and [[movie 'American Pie']] we have [[American Pie
(song)]] and [[American Pie (movie)]].

So, what does this mean?

The default naming of the slogans should be [[Power to the People]],
etc.

Now, what about the offensiveness? We don't tag or otherwise change
entry names for entries like [[fuck]] or [[fag]]. When the [[fuck]]
entry was first written, there were shouts of outrage and demands for
censorship and other cries of doom and acts of civil disobedience
(remember what you did, Ed?).

Time has passed, the topless towers of Wikipedia have not been toppled,
and they're good entries.

AKFD has similarly elicited cries of outrage. I'm sympathetic enough to
the cries to think that it's not unreasonable to disambiguate the entry
(though hardly enough to delete it). But if we do so, then we should do
so in conformance to the standard Wikipedia naming policy; that is,
[[AIDS Kills Fags Dead (slogan)]].

So, to recap, here's what I think:
1. The default naming for slogan entries should of the form [[Power to
the People]]
2. For egregiously offensive slogans the entry may be changed to the
form [[AIDS Kills Fags Dead (slogan)]]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Slander against scientists

body:
Robert wrote:

>Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> writes:
>
>>Yes!  Even a noted skeptic like Michael Shermer is very
>>careful about using the word.  Pseudoscience literaly
>>means false science.
>>
>Stop playing word games.  Pseudoscience has a much wider
>meaning than that. In any case, mainstream scientists and
>skeptics use this word quite a bit.  They only use this
>word, of course, when there is no other alternative.
>
They often use it at the drop of a hat to refer to anything that does
not conform to their individual POVs about what science should be.  The
honest scientists know that they lack the background for making any
pronouncements.

>> In reality many of the subject areas popularly
>>encompased by the term have never been proven true to
>>the satisfaction of the traditional scientific
>>community.  To say that not proven equates to proven
>>false is to apply the fallacy of the excluded middle
>>that is often phrased "If you're not with us you're
>>against us."
>>
>Untrue. This not how science works, or how the skeptical
>community deals with claims of the paranormal.  Propoents
>of pseudosceince are unable to defend themselves from the
>actual claims that scientists make, so they create a
>straw-man carcicature of science, and attack that strawman.
>That is shameful.
>
I'm sorry that I tried to use logic.  It was presumptuous of me to think
that Robert would understand that.  There are no "proponents of
pseudoscience"; that would be a prima-facie self-defeating POV.  Of
course, it's understandable that people with alternative views about
science would be unable to defend themselves when they are attacked by
people who have no idea about what they are saying.  As to the "straw
man", let's be clear about who's attacking who.  Students of alternative
scientific theories are content to pursue their studies, and have better
things to do with their time than to go out attacking scientists.  The
only shameful thing here is the way you are blaming the victim.

>>The term "pseudoscience" is as much a pejorative
>>as "kike" or "faggot" which have been discussed in a
>>concurrent thread
>>
>That's a bald-faced lie, and an attempt to slander
>scientists.  I am shocked at the hateful way that
>proponents of pseudoscience claim to be victims of
>religious-like discrimination.  The truth is that
>proponents of pseudoscience push statements that can not be
>proven, and when scientifically analyzed in controlled
>studies, are found to be false - or fraudulent.
>
>I am appalled that you publicly slander scientists, instead
>of dealing with the issues.
>
Faggotry has nothing to do with religion, but that's only incidental to
the issue.

But Robert, let's be consistent.  If pseudoscience is not science, then
it is more like a religion.  Then too how can such an apologist for
science support ANY religion.  Are you lying when you say that you
believe in science, or are you lying when you say that you believe in
your religion?  If pseudoscientists are indeed religious then they are
perfectly justified in claiming that they are "victims of religious-like
discrimination".  Some people who legitimately complain that they are
victims of religious discrimination, are woefully blind to the
discrimination that they practise themselves.

That something cannot be proven does not make it false.  In the spirit
of Kurt G?del there are always things that cannot be proven withinn a
finite set of principles.  Fermat's Last Theorem could not be proven for
300 years, did that make it false during all that time?  Were all the
people who insisted on its truth for three centuries to be called
pseudoscientists, or even more slanderously, frauds?  A basic concept of
logic is that the negation of the statement "All A are true" is "Some A
are false" and NOT "All A are false.  The fallacy of the excluded middle
ignores that simple principle.

There was no slander of scientists.  Only a criticism of those ignorant
and pig-headed ones who insist on making pronouncements about subjects
where they have no knowledge.

Ray


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Slander against scientists

body:
I am appalled that you continue to hide behind your own personal definition of science to make personal attacks on  people you disagree with.
Zoe
 Robert <rkscience100 at yahoo.com> wrote:I am appalled that you publicly slander scientists, instead
of dealing with the issues.

RK

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030320/0813470c/attachment.htm


from_name: Nick Reinking

subject: [Wikitech-l] Sysadmin...

body:
Hi, this is Marumari (from en Wikipedia).  I've been a UNIX sysadmin for
quite some time now, and I was wondering if it would be possible to
assist in the sysadminning of wikipedia.org?  I've spent quite a lot of
time doing performance tweaking on Linux and Solaris, so I think I could
help a lot.

Talked to thechef in #wikipedia, and he said this was definitely the
place to ask.  Thanks!

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


subject: [WikiEN-l] Cunctator and slogan policy

body:
Cunctator has already stated previously that he does not believe in consensus, and will do whatever he damn well pleases.
Zoe
 "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:I think only Cunctator agrees with his proposed policy, while nearly half a dozen other oppose it (both as expressed here on the mailing list, as well as on various talk pages).

If the consensus goes against you, Mr. Cunctator, please be so gracious as to revert your undoing of Oliver's work. I would do the same.

Uncle Ed
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030320/0598f737/attachment.htm


body:
Sheldon,

The argument that "no communist regime has ever claimed
to actually *be* communist" is already discussed in the
Wikipedia article, and is IMHO opinion an example of
exactly the sort of "disinformation" your other wiki
is supposedly dedicated to exposing.

Instead of trying to run verbal rings around LittleDan,
why not take a moment to consider what he *meant*?

Which was, apparently:

* putting communist ideas into effect by creating what
  pro-Marxists might call "building socialism" in a country.

The fact that these "socialist" experiments collapsed
in the former Soviet bloc would seem to support the POV
that communism never works in practice.

Anyway, the question is still whether:

* the Wikipedia ought to assert the fact that communism
  doesn't work, or
* the Wikipedia ought to REPORT that various observers
  have concluded that communism doesn't work

My understanding of Jimbo's NPOV policy is that we should
not assert communism's unworkableness as fact but rather
report that observers say it doesn't work.

Uncle Ed


subject: [WikiEN-l] Toe to toe with the Cunctator - not!

body:
The Cunctator wrote:

>On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 14:08, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
>
>>I'd love to turn this mailing list into a debate forum, and I consider
>>it an honor to have attracted the attention of such an awesome
>>exponent of personal liberty as the Cunctator.
>>
>>But Jimbo would probably not like it.
>>
>>So I guess I'll just get back to work.
>>
>What an excellent example of paralipsis (or as the Romans would say,
>praeteritio).
>
Excellent words.  They deserve to be in Wiktionary!

Ec