from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Valentine's day!

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales stated for the record:

> It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
> languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
> project.
>
> --Jimbo

Considering the hostile reaction "Merry Christmas" received in some
quarters, I'm sure someone will object.

I didn't get any valentines, you insensitive clod!

--
  Sean Barrett     | Because that's where the money is. --Willie
  sean at epoptic.com | Sutton, explaining why he robbed banks


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject: [WikiEN-l] Neo-nazis to attack wikipedia- a diversion?

body:
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:46:54 +0000, rose.parks at att.net
<rose.parks at att.net> wrote:
>      Second, do you all really believe that if they intended to do exactly as they say, they would post their tactics openly on their site? I wonder! I think that they _do_ intend to do damage to Wikipedia, but the details are probably in private mailings among members of their community. Meanwhile, they could be using their postings as a _diversion_, and while everyone is concentrating on monitoring certain articles, they could do something entirely different to damage our site. I leave it to those more technically inclined to try to figure out what that might be?.
>      Just my thinking?.

Look at it this way:
1) They thought that removing an excessive amount of links from a page
(unprotected) was an "abuse of admin rights"
2) "Wikipedia is a pro-Zionist, anti-white racialist, conformist site"
3) "its clearly written by an unrepepentant red, spilling out all the
same old apologies for communism."
4) "Holocaust Denial has been essentially hijacked by the jews on
wikipedia, along with many other topics, we really need more white
people to sign up to wikipedia and help to make unbiased contributions
to wikipedia.com"
5) They still haven't figured out the site address is en.wikipedia.org.
6) Some important messages need to be repeated twice before being
noticed. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1633290&postcount=39
7) They link to sources which have no sources
http://home.att.net/~whitesox/israel/Auschwitz.htm ->
http://www.air-photo.com/english_old/ra/deathbooks.html
8) They suggest a wiki with membership moderated.

In other words, they're stupid. Add that to "they're crackpots" and I
don't think they'll get anywhere.


list: wikipedia-l

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Simple English and English look too confusingly
	similar

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:18:21 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> On Wednesday 09 February 2005 04:47, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > I strongly recommend that we change the look and feel of the Simple
>
> I think it would be better to merge the two English Wikipedias and display a
> "Simple" link after every article title.

No, that would mean a pain in linking. On the Simple articles, we
would have to pipe every link, or readers would have to click on a
link and click again to get to the simple version.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] Make PDFs from articles

body:
Maik Musall wrote:
> quality to some business people who might not know it yet. I hope you
> agree this is a perfectly valid intention of using wikipedia content.)

Yes, absolutely.

Can you release whatever code/solution you get to this problem?

I think there is huge demand for the ability to have a nice quick
non-abusive-to-the-servers way for people to make pdfs out of 1000
articles.

--Jimbo


from_name: NSK

body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 04:47, Erik Moeller wrote:
> I strongly recommend that we change the look and feel of the Simple

I think it would be better to merge the two English Wikipedias and display a
"Simple" link after every article title.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com?

body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:

> I don't think the confusion can be reduced by simply using a longer name
> -- I believe the only way to accomplish that would be to change the main
> component, the "Wikimedia", but that doesn't seem practical. What are
> the cases where the confusion would increase if we move the site to
> wikimedia.org?
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

I think the issue is NOT entirely the one of "confusion". But also an
aspect of image, self-image.

When we use explicitely the word "foundation", we transmit a certain
message to the reader.

the term "Foundation" conveys a certain set of concept, about "help",
about "support", about "independant organisation", about "funding".

Which the simple term "wikimedia" does not convey.

This is probably why most american foundations have the word
"foundation" in their name.

Or most european associations have the word "association" in their name.

I think this is important from a pr perspective.


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: AndyL

subject: [WikiEN-l] Neo-nazis to attack wikipedia

body:
Just in case anyone's missed it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Conscious_evolutio
n


from_name: Stephen Forrest

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:10:34 -0000 (GMT), Tony Sidaway
<minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:

> I don't think this is really a problem.  Experts make mistakes too.
> Somebody should inform that expert of his mistake so that he can correct
> it.  His criticism of the standard of the entry on the Simple English
> Wikipedia is valid.

Her criticism.

I agree that it is not at all clear what the Simple English
encyclopaedia is about if you just link to a random page.  I don't
think we need any more complex solution than site-specific branding
and (possibly) a brief notice at the foot of the page, though.

Steve


from_name: Philippe Roth

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedia 1.2 upgrade to 1.3.10

body:
Dear all,

We have actually a mediawiki installed and used. Its version is 1.2.2
This has been installed under Linux RH Fedora.

We would like to make an upgrade to version 1.3.10 on a new machine
under Linux or Windows.
This is what we did:
- Install a fresh system (linux and Windows (on different machine))
- Install what needed for mediaWiki (Apache/Php/MySQL under Linux;
EasyPHP under Windows).
- Downloaded tar files of mediawiki1.3.10.
- Copy folder mediawiki 1.3.10 to defined place(/var/www/wiki under
Linux; C:\Easyphp\www\wiki under Windows).
- Setup of the mediawiki (name and MySQL base with the Browser).
- Access the new mediawiki. This works fine.

Now, we want to restore our old datas.
- We made a mysqldump of the old data on the old machine.
- We tryied to restore them on the new mediawiki installations (linux
and Windows).
- The tables under MySQL are differents from 1.2.2 to 1.3 and we receive
error messages, like "SELECT
user_name,user_password,user_newpassword,user_email,user_real_name,user_
options,user_rights,user_touched FROM user WHERE user_id=12
function "User::loadFromDatabase". MySQL error "1054: field
'user_real_name' unknown in field list"...
When we want to login with the new mediawiki...

- We tryied several options to make the upgrade, like importing old data
before installing the new wikimedia, but we have errors when the
database is set...
- We tryied to use some php scripts given within the wiki/maintenance
folder. No success and error messages...
- We looked everywhere how to make the upgrade and found no solution...

Please!!! Could anyone give us some light how to make this upgrade??
HELP!!!

Many thanks in advance for any information.

Have a nice day,
Philippe Roth - Switzerland


from_name: Stacey Greenstein

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content by
	Infoslurp.com

body:
No copyvio here. Wikipedia is downstreamed to several websites.
Infolurp is only one of many sites that mirror Wikipedia's
information.

Stacey Greenstein
aka UtherSRG

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 04:56:01 -0500, Bobby Maisnam <maisnam at utk.edu> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am posting to this list because I could not find a way to email
> Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us
>
> The following site seems to be a direct copy of Wikipedia
> content.
> http://www.infoslurp.com/information/
>
> And it also has Google Ads. I wonder how Google is allowing this
> site to earn revenue from Wikipedia content.
>
> Example page:
> Original Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogger
> Infoslurp page: http://www.infoslurp.com/information/Blogger
>
> Thanks,
> - Bobby Maisnam
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Chad Perrin (perrin at apotheon.com) [050209 06:02]:

> The real problem that arises, I think, is in new articles.  If someone
> from, say, the Stormfront crew creates a new article loaded with bias
> from day one, it's entirely possible it my fly in under radar (as
> 'twere) for quite some time without being noticed.

The Vicious Deletionist Forces watch Special:newpages reasonably closely.
It's not *that* likely *no-one* will notice it.

- d.


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Textile

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

NSK schrieb:
| Are there any plans to make MW compliant with the Textile standard?
|
| http://textism.com/tools/textile/

I don't think MediaWiki will be switched to another markup standard any
time soon...

*However*, using XML as an intermediate, conversion from/to different
standards could be easy and (mostly) lossless.

Magnus
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCCdlyCZKBJbEFcz0RAqDHAJ0dw5CqsfLup5k7C7HwRYXLRUzSCwCfR3KP
BZNftawbspbE0xxeEFsoo/Y=
=ZtS5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Bobby Maisnam

body:
Stacey,

I just have a couple of more questions/notes:

[1] So, is it ok to display Google AdSense on the website? This
would basically mean that the website is earning revenue from
Wikipedia content.

[2] And the website also removes the "Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia" text from the page title tags and the "From
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" text from the pages.

[3] The main website [ http://www.infoslurp.com/ ] does not have
any links to the Wikipedia content [
http://www.infoslurp.com/information/ ] section. It has
information about "Hair Transplants" and points the user to
another website. In fact, on the main website, it does not
mention anything about Wikipedia or the Wikipedia section.

The only advantage that I see is that it is providing Wikipedia
content on a different website. That way it might be contributing
in decreasing the bandwith load on the actual Wikipedia website.
But what good is such a "mirror" (not sure if it an actual
mirror) if it is hidden and the only way you can get to it is to
stumble upon it accidentally?

To me, it seems to be a clear case of trying to make money out of
Wikipedia content using questionable methods.

Comments are welcome.

- Bobby

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stacey Greenstein" <stacey.nj at gmail.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia
content byInfoslurp.com

> No copyvio here. Wikipedia is downstreamed to several websites.
> Infolurp is only one of many sites that mirror Wikipedia's
> information.
>
> Stacey Greenstein
> aka UtherSRG
>
>
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 04:56:01 -0500, Bobby Maisnam
> <maisnam at utk.edu> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am posting to this list because I could not find a way to
>> email
>> Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us
>>
>> The following site seems to be a direct copy of Wikipedia
>> content.
>> http://www.infoslurp.com/information/
>>
>> And it also has Google Ads. I wonder how Google is allowing
>> this
>> site to earn revenue from Wikipedia content.
>>
>> Example page:
>> Original Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogger
>> Infoslurp page: http://www.infoslurp.com/information/Blogger
>>
>> Thanks,
>> - Bobby Maisnam
>>


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Erik Moeller said:
> I just read this blog entry from January:
> http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2005/01/04/academia_and_wikipedia.php
>
[...]
>
> If an expert can make that mistake, I'm sure many other people have,
> wondering why all the Wikipedia articles they looked at were written in
>  very juvenile prose and incomplete.
>
> I strongly recommend that we change the look and feel of the Simple
> English Wikipedia to avoid that confusion, perhaps going so far to add
> a  [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] to that effect. A somewhat different logo
> would  also help. The changes I can make without being a sysop are
> limited,  though, and Simple is not particularly active, so I thought
> I'd bring  this to the attention of the list first.
>
I don't think this is really a problem.  Experts make mistakes too.
Somebody should inform that expert of his mistake so that he can correct
it.  His criticism of the standard of the entry on the Simple English
Wikipedia is valid.


body:
David Gerard said:
> Chad Perrin (perrin at apotheon.com) [050209 06:02]:
>
>> The real problem that arises, I think, is in new articles.  If someone
>>  from, say, the Stormfront crew creates a new article loaded with bias
>>  from day one, it's entirely possible it my fly in under radar (as
>> 'twere) for quite some time without being noticed.
>
>
> The Vicious Deletionist Forces watch Special:newpages reasonably
> closely. It's not *that* likely *no-one* will notice it.

Such articles can also be picked up when they're linked in to other parts
of Wikipedia.  Watch the usual neo-Nazi sources, and Usenet, for neo-nazis
citing Wikipedia, and follow up all references.


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting

body:
Anthere wrote:

>In particular, last year, we thought of asking a NEH
>grant, but the deadlines were too short. We might try
>again this year. The work to do is not only setting up
>figures, but there is also a lot of work simply
>describing our project, gathering statistics or press
>clipings, helping on the layout, fixing typos,
>improving style etc...
>
>
I thought last time this came up, Jimbo indicated he was fairly strongly
against the idea of Wikipedia seeking grants from governments or
government agencies?

-Mark


subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting


body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 09:35, Tomer Chachamu wrote:
> No, that would mean a pain in linking. On the Simple articles, we

You can use different namespaces.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


subject: [Wikitech-l] Textile

body:
Are there any plans to make MW compliant with the Textile standard?

http://textism.com/tools/textile/

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Neo-nazis to attack wikipedia- a diversion?

body:
JAY JG wrote:
>
>
>> Second, do you all really believe that if they intended to do exactly
>> as they say, they would
>> post their tactics openly on their site? I wonder! I think that they
>> _do_ intend to do damage to Wikipedia, but the details are probably in
>> private mailings among members of their community.
>> Meanwhile, they could be using their postings as a _diversion_, and
>> while everyone is
>> concentrating on monitoring certain articles, they could do something
>> entirely different to damage
>> our site. I leave it to those more technically inclined to try to
>> figure out what that might be?.
>
>
> I think you credit them with far more intelligence than they have ever
> demonstrated.
>
> Jay.

LOL! I agree.

TBSDY


from_name: Petr Kadlec

subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:51:41 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> I am unable to create external links with the character ' in their URL, with
> MW1.3.9. What can I do?

Use %27?

-- [[:cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec ]]


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Valentine's day!

body:
Hi!

Last year I started this collection on my private wiki - now I
transferred it to the Italian wiktionary.
http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Buon_San_Valentino%21
So please have a look at it to correct and/or complete it - this would
be really great :-)

Btw.: the editor Langenscheidt in Germany uses the wishes in 20
languages to send out the greetings - can't we do much better? I'll now
search for a photo to combine with the wishes.

Ciao, Sabine

*******************

Buon San Valentino!
Da Wikipedia, l'enciclopedia libera.

Italiano

Espressione

Buon San Valentino!

Traduzione

* bulgaro: Chestit Sveti Valentin!
* danese: De k?rligste hilsner p? Vantentinsdag!
* tedesco:

Alles Gute zum Valentinstag!
Alles Liebe zum Valentinstag!

* inglese:

Happy St. Valentine's Day!
Happy Valentine's Day!

* esperanto: Bonan Tagon de Sankta Valentino!
* spagnolo:

?Feliz d?a del amor y de la amistad! (Colombia)
?Feliz d?a de San Valent?n!
?Feliz San Valent?n!
?Feliz d?a de los enamorados! (Venezuela)

* finlandese: Hyv?? yst?v?np?iv??!
* francese:

Joyeuse St. Valentin!
Bonne f?te de la Saint-Valentin!

* croato:

Sretno Valentinovo!
S ljubavlju za Valentinovo!

* ungherese:

Boldog Valentin Napot!
Sok szeretettel Valentin-napon!

* giapponese: ?????????????.
* olandese:

Wil jij mijn Valentijn zijn? (attenzione: significa "Vorresti essere il
mio Valentino" - quindi da utilizzare veramente soltanto per che si ama
e non per una amico/a)
Fijne Valentijnsdag!

* norvegese: Kj?rlig hilsen i anledning valentinsdagen!
* polacco: Wszystkiego nahlepszego z okazji walentynek!
* portoghese brasiliano: Feliz Dia dos Namorados!
* svedese:

Alla hj?rtans dag!
K?ra h?lsingar p? Alla hj?rtans dag!

* serbo: Sve najlep?e za dan svetog Valentina!
* sloveno: Veliko ljubezni na Valentinovo!
* turco: Sevgililer g?n? kutlu olsun!


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Valentine's day!


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
NSK wrote:
> I am unable to create external links with the character ' in their URL, with
> MW1.3.9. What can I do?

For external links in [single brackets] this is fixed in 1.4.

Otherwise, you can use %27 which is ugly but functional.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050209/f788c86a/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Textile

body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 12:18, David Gerard wrote:
> Who actually uses this? First I've heard of it.

There's a Drupal module for this.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
I am unable to create external links with the character ' in their URL, with
MW1.3.9. What can I do?

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on answers.com/google

body:
I was looking up the word orchard via google today and noticed that
they have a Wikipedia section:
http://www.answers.com/orchard&r=67

http://snipurl.com/cna7

Cool, how long have they been doing this?

Christiaan


from_name: leercontainer-wikimedia at yahoo.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] clearing the text input field

body:
Why? The user might want to change spelling or whatever.

--Guttorm Flatab??

--- NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:

> the text input field near Go-Search needs to be cleared after an
> unsuccessfull
> Go-Search.
>
> --
> NSK


from_name: NSK

body:
the text input field near Go-Search needs to be cleared after an unsuccessfull
Go-Search.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


from_name: Rhobite

body:
Hold on a sec, this isn't just a mirror. They're scraping Wikipedia
pages in real time and serving them up with ads. It may not be a GFDL
violation but they're using server resources every time someone views
a page. I think web sites which have done this before were cut off
from accessing Wikipedia.

Rhobite


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content
	by	Infoslurp.com

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>My understanding of the GFDL is that it means you could even stand on a
>street corner and sell bound copies of its content for a fee.  Someone
>will undoubtedly correct me if this is wrong.  Free as in speech, not free
>as in beer.
>
>
Yep.  In fact, the Free Software Foundation, which drafted the GFDL, is
pretty adamant about the right to sell commercially being part of the
freedom involved in capital-F Free.  The only thing you're required to
do is license any changes you make under the same license, and provide a
"transparent" (i.e. machine-readable and human-editable) copy of the
document.  In fact, if some enterprising company were to look at
Wikipedia, sort through the articles for 10,000 good ones, copyedit and
clean those up, and then bind it in a nice set of volumes, that'd be
perfectly within both the letter and the spirit of the GFDL, as long as
they allowed us to reuse their copyedits and other changes in our own
version.

-Mark


body:
P.S. they're also loading images directly off of upload.wikimedia.org.
I think they need to be blocked.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content
	byInfoslurp.com

body:
> My understanding of the GFDL is that it means you could even stand on a
> street corner and sell bound copies of its content for a fee.  Someone
> will undoubtedly correct me if this is wrong.  Free as in speech, not free
> as in beer.

Thanks for the information. So I guess it is not a copyright issue but it
does raise questions about misuse of Google Adsense and Wikipedia content.

On a hunch, I decided to do a search for a phrase from a random Wikipedia
article. I searched for the phrase "new AC alternator on all Fords and the
now-famous Mustang GT" on Google.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22new+AC+alternator+on+all+Fords+and+the+now-famous+Mustang+GT%22&hl=en&lr=&filter=0
or
http://tinyurl.com/67j67

I got 19 hits. Out of them, 12 display Google AdSense links. I did not
realize that so many sites are using Wikipedia content to collect Google
AdSense revenue.

- Bobby

p.s. Two of the sites are directly loading images off Wikipedia
http://www.xasa.com/wiki/en/wikipedia/f/fo/ford_mustang.html
http://www.conk.com/search/encyclopedia.cgi?q=Ford_Mustang


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content
	by	Infoslurp.com

body:
Anthere wrote:

> If there is a page somewhere listing mirrors under violation of our
> copyright, consider adding it to it.

There is a very (*very*) long list of known mirrors, along with
GFDL-compliance status, at [[en:Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks]].
Unfortunately, it's a bit hard to keep track of, because there are
hundreds and hundreds of sites that use Wikipedia content---so many that
that page had to be broken down into 8 subpages by name (A-C, D-F, etc.).

-Mark


subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 12:57, David Gerard wrote:
> Does using %27 in the URL work?

Thanks, it works. However, the ' character needs to be supported somehow.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
NSK wrote:
> On Wednesday 09 February 2005 22:28, Brion Vibber wrote:
>>For external links in [single brackets] this is fixed in 1.4.
>
>
> Could you please ship a 1.3.11 version to include this fix? Thanks

1.3 is in maintenance mode and is receiving only security fixes.

Either backport the fix yourself or upgrade to 1.4.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050209/98fb3009/attachment.pgp>


body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 14:04, leercontainer-wikimedia at yahoo.com wrote:
> Why? The user might want to change spelling or whatever.

You'll understand what's wrong with your approach when I give you a list of
100 words and phrases to look up on Wikipedia or Dictionary.com (which uses
the same design).

You can have a text input field inside the search wiki page filled with the
last search string, and ____clear____ the text input field of the search box.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wikicite project pages (english versions only so
	far)

body:
Stirling Newberry wrote:

> On Feb 9, 2005, at 2:59 PM, Lars Aronsson wrote:
>
>> Sj wrote (about Wikicite):
>>
>>> I was wary of this idea at first, but after talking to Stirling about
>>> it last week, I am very enthusiastic.  Two librarians I have talked to
>>> in Boston seem to think it's a good idea, also.
>>
>> As in "if you cook, we will eat", or the other way around?
>>
>> Stirling Newbury wrote:
>>
>>>> together in a live manner, which allows for the creation of
>>>> bibliographic apparatus. The Library of Congress is working on such a
>>>> project for its purposes, it is the purpose of this project to create
>>>> an open wiki system which will allow:
>>>
>> Who are these people at LoC?  Does their project have a name?
>
> Bibliographic enhancement, there is a link on the page.
>
>> I think the best way is to digitize every book and give each page a
>> URL, like this, http://runeberg.org/pictswed/0219.html
>
> Where the material is in Wikisource this is great, but you still need
> the card for context and references.
>
>> We already know how to handle URLs, and it's only a matter of time
>> until we have scanned every book and newspaper there is.  I would
>> guess the task will be completed within the next 50 years.  Most of us
>> will be around to see it.
>>
>> So, I have a proposed solution and a time table.  What's your time
>> table?
>
> Links to sources don't create citation indexes, they don't make citing
> easier and they don't allow us to annotate sources - it also assumes
> that a great deal of material will be released into the public domain
> that is not currently. I feel that we can have a first pass wikicite
> ready to be used in wikipedia and wikitionary articles within a year
> based on ISBN numbers for books and ISSN numbers for journals.

ISBNs are of limited value since they were only adopted in 1970.  Most
of that material is still copyright protected.  The public domain
material on Wikisource is much older than that, and has no ISBNs.

Ec


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting

body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> As you all have probably seen, our budget is seriously
> increasing every trimester.

This is very true (although our budgets are quarterly). I heard yesterday that
many people thought the $130,000 budget was for the rest of the year. In fact,
that is just for the first quarter of this year (ends March 31st).

We are throwing a lot more money at servers this time than we normally would.
This is largely due to the existence of the $40,000 grant and our want to
*finally* get ahead of traffic increases and have a server farm that is top
rate and very scalable.

> It is my personal view that we cannot anymore entirely
> rely on donations by visitors, but must seriously seek
> other sources of income.

Last year our total income was $150,498.75 (in 2003 we took in less than
$20,000). Based on projected increases of traffic, how much we have spent per
1000 page requests just to keep up, and adjusting for Moore's Law, I project we
will need to spend about $165,000 to $195,000 on servers during the last
quarter of this year just to keep up (not for the whole year, just for the last
three months).

That is *if* we continue to grow as fast as we have been (80% compounded each
quarter), *if* we don't find some way to be vastly more efficient, and *if* we
continue to rely pretty much only on servers we buy.

Lots of ifs, but it is still an important thing to consider as we move forward.
The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of money we need to
spend as will other hosting offers. I imagine that grants will at least be
needed to build extra capacity (playing the role of the current $40,000 grant
this time).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Whenever somebody adds a random cite to an article written mostly or
>entirely by me, I remove it unless I actually DID use that source.
>
So no one is allowed to touch the article references section except
yourself? That's a little possessive, to say the least. Suppose I
check your claims against my reference, find them good, see no reason
to change the text, and add the reference as a token that I've done
the checking?

References are there for *other* people to use; if you've neglected
to mention the standard text that readers should look at if they want
to know more, then other editors need to be able to fix your mistake.

By your reasoning, we could never add to the references section
for an article written two years ago by someone who has since moved
on, nor could a 1911EB-derived article ever get updated references,
at least not without casting a resurrection spell first...

Stan


subject: [Foundation-l] Progress on wikimedia.com?

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> On a different note, yes, Wikimedia and Wikipedia are very confusingly
> similar. Individually, our naming choices have been good, but taken
> together, they're a mess. I think it's too late to rename Wikimedia,
> with international organizations in place and 2 million Google hits on
> that name. The best way to deal with that problem, in my opinion, is to
> give a short explanation on the wikimedia.org page  (which would then be
> the foundation page), with a small icon and a link to Wikipedia.

IMO, the shorter name can and should be used to present selected content from
the various projects along with the ability to search all projects at once or
individually. Something like the homepage for InfoPlease but better.
http://www.infoplease.com/

At the very least, we should have the current owner forward Wikimedia.com to
Wikimedia.org. We can then negotiate ownership transfer costs.

-- mav

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Valentine's day!

body:
Jimbo said:
> It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
> languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
> project.
>
"If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and
redistributed at will or used in a teeth-grindingly twee Saint Valentine's
Day greeting, do not submit it." ;)


from_name: Sj

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:59:56 +0100 (CET), Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se> wrote:
> Sj wrote (about Wikicite):
> > I was wary of this idea at first, but after talking to Stirling about
> > it last week, I am very enthusiastic.  Two librarians I have talked to
> > in Boston seem to think it's a good idea, also.
>
> As in "if you cook, we will eat", or the other way around?

They were interested in helping out / promoting the idea.  (But have
no access to the databases in question)

SJ


from_name: Stirling Newberry

body:
On Feb 9, 2005, at 2:59 PM, Lars Aronsson wrote:

> Sj wrote (about Wikicite):
>> I was wary of this idea at first, but after talking to Stirling about
>> it last week, I am very enthusiastic.  Two librarians I have talked to
>> in Boston seem to think it's a good idea, also.
>
> As in "if you cook, we will eat", or the other way around?
>
> Stirling Newbury wrote:
>>> together in a live manner, which allows for the creation of
>>> bibliographic apparatus. The Library of Congress is working on such a
>>> project for its purposes, it is the purpose of this project to create
>>> an open wiki system which will allow:
>
> Who are these people at LoC?  Does their project have a name?
>

Bibliographic enhancement, there is a link on the page.

>

> I think the best way is to digitize every book and give each page a
> URL, like this, http://runeberg.org/pictswed/0219.html
>

Where the material is in Wikisource this is great, but you still need
the card for context and references.

> We already know how to handle URLs, and it's only a matter of time
> until we have scanned every book and newspaper there is.  I would
> guess the task will be completed within the next 50 years.  Most of us
> will be around to see it.
>
> So, I have a proposed solution and a time table.  What's your time
> table?
>

Links to sources don't create citation indexes, they don't make citing
easier and they don't allow us to annotate sources - it also assumes
that a great deal of material will be released into the public domain
that is not currently. I feel that we can have a first pass wikicite
ready to be used in wikipedia and wikitionary articles within a year
based on ISBN numbers for books and ISSN numbers for journals.


body:
--- Stacey Greenstein <stacey.nj at gmail.com> wrote:
> No copyvio here. Wikipedia is downstreamed to several websites.
> Infolurp is only one of many sites that mirror Wikipedia's
> information.

Yes there is. They do not have any author information. At the very least they
need a link back to the original Wikipedia article (where that info in under
the history tab).

-- mav

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
I, for one, believe we should merge simple: with en:, but instead of
having two articles for each topic, we merge them completely so there
is just one en: instead of two.

Using simple: for Simple English is very Anglocentric, and on top of
that one could use a site like PopJisyo ( http://www.popjisyo.com/ )
to explain the more difficult words.

I don't think a lot of people will agree with me here and I don't
expect a merger will happen in the near future, but that's still my
opinion.

Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:13:34 -0500, Stephen Forrest
<stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:10:34 -0000 (GMT), Tony Sidaway
> <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't think this is really a problem.  Experts make mistakes too.
> > Somebody should inform that expert of his mistake so that he can correct
> > it.  His criticism of the standard of the entry on the Simple English
> > Wikipedia is valid.
>
> Her criticism.
>
> I agree that it is not at all clear what the Simple English
> encyclopaedia is about if you just link to a random page.  I don't
> think we need any more complex solution than site-specific branding
> and (possibly) a brief notice at the foot of the page, though.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Having a short domain name is very important. Many people don't use
> bookmarks, and they will visit a site only if they feel like typing the
> name. wikimediafoundation.org is 23 characters, longer than every single
> name on the Alexa top 100 websites list. Conveying the message that we
> are a foundation is best left to the website content, in my opinion,
> rather than the domain name. I don't see emphasis as a sufficient reason
> to keep a long name, otherwise we might as well call it
> wikimedianonprofit.org or wikimediafreeknowledge.org to emphasize other
> aspects of importance.

Every single page on every project that the foundation runs should eventually
have a link to one of the fundrasing pages. There also should be a direct link
to the foundation home page from each of those ~2 million pages (under the "A
Wikimedia Project" button). Thus the number of characters in the actual URL of
the foundation wiki is not too important.

Having a portal to act as a central start-off point to all the different
projects is far more important. Having that at Wikimedia.org makes perfect
sense to me. Granted the current one lacks content and inter-project search
capability, but that can and should be changed.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: Google hosting (was Re: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting)

body:
--- Marco Krohn <marco.krohn at web.de> wrote:
> I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find
> anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what
> is meant with it exactly?

I don't remember the specifics (ask Jimbo for those), but Google has at least
tentatively agreed to give us access to a certain number of dual zeon servers
at one or more of their data centers and with unlimited bandwidth. I've been
told that there are no strings attached (meaning they don't expect us to do
anything for then, such as having GoogleAds).

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Valentine's day!

body:
Not to spoil your fun, but unlike Christmas there is a much more
international greeting for the same holiday (Valentine's Day) that is
much less likely to alienate or offend others.

There is no way to say "Happy valentine's day" in O'odham
(Pima/Papago) or Piipaash (Maricopa) or Xalychidoma (Halichidhoma)
without sounding extremely strange and perhaps overly religious - it
is definitely non-traditional and not all speakers of these languages
(well, at least O'odham) know what it is.

Thus, while I have no problem with your project, I believe an "I Love
You" project should be featured more prominently - "I love you" is
religiously neutral, and while not entirely culturally neutral is much
more neutral than "Happy Valentine's Day". (even in Tagalog, the
translation of "I'm lovin' it" is "'love' ko to")

However, it should still be noted that "love" isn't a universal
concept (you may object and say it IS universal, but "love" as opposed
to sexuality is very much a cultural construct and is absent from some
cultures entirely), and in addition to that, that "love" means
different things to different cultures.

Mark

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:54:52 +0100, Sabine Cretella
<sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Last year I started this collection on my private wiki - now I
> transferred it to the Italian wiktionary.
> http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Buon_San_Valentino%21
> So please have a look at it to correct and/or complete it - this would
> be really great :-)
>
> Btw.: the editor Langenscheidt in Germany uses the wishes in 20
> languages to send out the greetings - can't we do much better? I'll now
> search for a photo to combine with the wishes.
>
> Ciao, Sabine
>
> *******************
>
> Buon San Valentino!
> Da Wikipedia, l'enciclopedia libera.
>
> Italiano
>
> Espressione
>
> Buon San Valentino!
>
> Traduzione
>
> * bulgaro: Chestit Sveti Valentin!
> * danese: De k?rligste hilsner p? Vantentinsdag!
> * tedesco:
>
> Alles Gute zum Valentinstag!
> Alles Liebe zum Valentinstag!
>
> * inglese:
>
> Happy St. Valentine's Day!
> Happy Valentine's Day!
>
> * esperanto: Bonan Tagon de Sankta Valentino!
> * spagnolo:
>
> ?Feliz d?a del amor y de la amistad! (Colombia)
> ?Feliz d?a de San Valent?n!
> ?Feliz San Valent?n!
> ?Feliz d?a de los enamorados! (Venezuela)
>
> * finlandese: Hyv?? yst?v?np?iv??!
> * francese:
>
> Joyeuse St. Valentin!
> Bonne f?te de la Saint-Valentin!
>
> * croato:
>
> Sretno Valentinovo!
> S ljubavlju za Valentinovo!
>
> * ungherese:
>
> Boldog Valentin Napot!
> Sok szeretettel Valentin-napon!
>
> * giapponese: ????????????.
> * olandese:
>
> Wil jij mijn Valentijn zijn? (attenzione: significa "Vorresti essere il
> mio Valentino" - quindi da utilizzare veramente soltanto per che si ama
> e non per una amico/a)
> Fijne Valentijnsdag!
>
> * norvegese: Kj?rlig hilsen i anledning valentinsdagen!
> * polacco: Wszystkiego nahlepszego z okazji walentynek!
> * portoghese brasiliano: Feliz Dia dos Namorados!
> * svedese:
>
> Alla hj?rtans dag!
> K?ra h?lsingar p? Alla hj?rtans dag!
>
> * serbo: Sve najlep?e za dan svetog Valentina!
> * sloveno: Veliko ljubezni na Valentinovo!
> * turco: Sevgililer g?n? kutlu olsun!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
I think a very important issue here is whether to add cites to
articles that we don't know what sources were used.

If I wrote the entire text of [[Japanese language]] (which I didn't,
this is just an example), without a cite, it would be a very horrible
thing in my mind if somebody added a cite for a book I'd never even
heard of. It's simply not accurate, and in some cases the book may not
even be a good resource.

Whenever somebody adds a random cite to an article written mostly or
entirely by me, I remove it unless I actually DID use that source.
It's very irritating to have people doing that, almost like bees, who
while they make honey also tend to annoy people.

Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:15:16 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
> On Feb 9, 2005, at 2:59 PM, Lars Aronsson wrote:
>
> > Sj wrote (about Wikicite):
> >> I was wary of this idea at first, but after talking to Stirling about
> >> it last week, I am very enthusiastic.  Two librarians I have talked to
> >> in Boston seem to think it's a good idea, also.
> >
> > As in "if you cook, we will eat", or the other way around?
> >
> > Stirling Newbury wrote:
> >>> together in a live manner, which allows for the creation of
> >>> bibliographic apparatus. The Library of Congress is working on such a
> >>> project for its purposes, it is the purpose of this project to create
> >>> an open wiki system which will allow:
> >
> > Who are these people at LoC?  Does their project have a name?
> >
>
> Bibliographic enhancement, there is a link on the page.
>
> >
>
> > I think the best way is to digitize every book and give each page a
> > URL, like this, http://runeberg.org/pictswed/0219.html
> >
>
> Where the material is in Wikisource this is great, but you still need
> the card for context and references.
>
>
> > We already know how to handle URLs, and it's only a matter of time
> > until we have scanned every book and newspaper there is.  I would
> > guess the task will be completed within the next 50 years.  Most of us
> > will be around to see it.
> >
> > So, I have a proposed solution and a time table.  What's your time
> > table?
> >
>
> Links to sources don't create citation indexes, they don't make citing
> easier and they don't allow us to annotate sources - it also assumes
> that a great deal of material will be released into the public domain
> that is not currently. I feel that we can have a first pass wikicite
> ready to be used in wikipedia and wikitionary articles within a year
> based on ISBN numbers for books and ISSN numbers for journals.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Felix Wan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Il love you - in many languages

body:
On Wed, February 9, 2005 7:38 am, Sabine Cretella said:
> Japanese: Kimi o ai shiteru
>
Just "Aishiteru." will be more natural.
Japanese has a tendency of dropping pronouns.
See [[en:Pro-drop language]].

That also avoids "kimi", which can only be used when
a guy talks to a girl already in a close relationship.

> Chinese: Wo ie ni
>
Wo3 ai4 ni3.

Felix Wan


body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>I think a very important issue here is whether to add cites to
>articles that we don't know what sources were used.
>
>If I wrote the entire text of [[Japanese language]] (which I didn't,
>this is just an example), without a cite, it would be a very horrible
>thing in my mind if somebody added a cite for a book I'd never even
>heard of. It's simply not accurate, and in some cases the book may not
>even be a good resource.
>
>Whenever somebody adds a random cite to an article written mostly or
>entirely by me, I remove it unless I actually DID use that source.
>It's very irritating to have people doing that, almost like bees, who
>while they make honey also tend to annoy people.
>
>
That's not nice.  It suggests that you have taken personal ownership of
the article.  When somebody adds a citation, one should at least presume
that the person acted in good faith, and that he felt that the source
supported some of the things said in the article.  How can you possibly
tell whether a book is a good resource if you've never heard of it?  You
have no basis for determining that the cite is "random".

It's not as if he were referring to a source with a known biased
political point of view.

Ec


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Bobby Maisnam said:
> Stacey,
>
> I just have a couple of more questions/notes:
>
> [1] So, is it ok to display Google AdSense on the website? This
> would basically mean that the website is earning revenue from
> Wikipedia content.

My understanding of the GFDL is that it means you could even stand on a
street corner and sell bound copies of its content for a fee.  Someone
will undoubtedly correct me if this is wrong.  Free as in speech, not free
as in beer.


body:
One thing especially important here is the absence of non-Roman
scripts where they would normally be used (Greek, Russian, etc).

I can tell you though:

O'odham- "A?i a? sem hohid"
Hopi- "Nu? umi unangw?y?ta"
Zuni: "Tom ho' ichema"
Yiddish: "???? ???? ??? ??? ?"

I know a lot of others (especially in Arizonan languages) but it's too
much trouble to type the lot of them (special characters).

Mark

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:38:16 +0100, Sabine Cretella
<sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> Here is a list I collected approx. a year ago - not all useable, but
> most of them. At this moment I just don't have the time to start a page
> with another phrase, so if someone would like to create it on any
> wiktionary using language templates like {{en}} etc., please let us know
> the link (so we can easily transfer it). During the week-end I can
> record the sentences in German and Italian (vor St. Valentine and I love
> you).
>
> English: I love you
> Latin: Te amo
> Greek: S' ayapo
> French: Je t'aime
> Spanish: Te quiero
> Portuguese: Amo-te
> Italian: Ti amo
> Irish: Taim i' ngra leat
> German: Ich liebe dich
> Dutch: Ik houd van jou
> Swedish: Jag a" lskar dig
> Hebrew: Ani ohev otah / Ani ohev et otha
> Russian: Ya tebya liubliu
> Japanese: Kimi o ai shiteru
> Chinese: Wo ie ni
> Albanian: Te dua
> Arabic: Ana behibek / Ana behibak
> Armenian: Yes kez si'rumem
> Cambodian: Kh_nhaum soro_lahn nhee_ah
> Catalan: T'estimo
> Bulgarian: Obicham te!
> Cheyenne: Ne mohotatse
> Creol: Mi aime jou
> Ethiopian: Afgreki'
> Gaelic: Ta gra agam ort
> Hawaiian: Aloha wau ia oi
> Hopi: Nu' umi unangwa'ta
> Hungarian: Szeretlek
> Korean: Dangsinul saranghee yo
> Lebanese: Bahibak
> Lithuanian: Tave myliu
> Mohawk: Konoronhkwa
> Moroccan: Kanbhik
> Navaho: Ayor anosh'ni
>
> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
> >It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
> >languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
> >project.
> >
> >--Jimbo
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>If you add text to the article, you may add your own cites and you
>won't at all irritate me.
>
Didn't you read the fine print on the edit screen? People can edit
your writing in any way that seems good to them and conforms to
policy; it's not your place to say that they can't, whether it's
to add or change citations, references, see alsos, or whatever.
I care much more that the readers see a sensible article than
whether my edits irritate you or not.

Stan


body:
I said, USING SIMPLE: for Simple English is Anglocentric.

Simple: might as well be a Wikipedia in Simplified Chinese. It's NOT
an ISO code, and it sure doesn't tell you it's in simple ENGLISH. It
should be en-simple: or simple-en:

Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:42:11 +0000, Tomer Chachamu <the.r3m0t at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:28:31 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I, for one, believe we should merge simple: with en:, but instead of
> > having two articles for each topic, we merge them completely so there
> > is just one en: instead of two.
> >
> > Using simple: for Simple English is very Anglocentric, and on top of
> > that one could use a site like PopJisyo ( http://www.popjisyo.com/ )
> > to explain the more difficult words.
> >
> > I don't think a lot of people will agree with me here and I don't
> > expect a merger will happen in the near future, but that's still my
> > opinion.
>
> Anglocentric? How? English is a very commonly spoken language. Would
> you appreciate a rename of the project? "Foreign English"?
>
> A "merge" of en: and simple: wouldn't be a merge. Everything in
> simple: would be discarded and en: would stay as it is.
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] portal organization

body:
I disagree.

Almost everybody I know knows that Spanish is a Romance language, and
not because I told them. Did they know Burmese is a Tibeto-Burman
language which is a subfamily of Sino-Tibetan? Probably not.

Also, not even a LINGUIST would /want/ to see them organised like
that. Even if you know the groupings, it's much less intuitive.

Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:04:51 +0000, Tomer Chachamu <the.r3m0t at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:19:44 +0100, James R. Johnson
> <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > I was thinking about another possible portal arrangement, that based on
> > language family, giving the Latin, French, Spanish, etc. languages a
> > grouping, the Germanic languages, and so forth.  Perhaps not for the main
> > portal, but rather on the article for Latin or Romance-languages, we could
> > add a language tree with links to the daughter language wikipedias.  Same
> > with an article on proto-Germanic.
>
> Most people know very little about the origins of languages. Only a
> linguist would want to see them sorted like that.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] tonos and oxia

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Our software now converts the 1F71 to the 03AC form.  It would
> nevertheless be preferable not to conflate these forms.  Wikisource will
> include both classical and modern Greek texts, and it would seem
> preferable to have the entire range of accents available for the
> classical texts when required.

What we're doing is normalizing input to Unicode normalization form C
(canonical form). Non-normalized text causes ugly, annoying problems
such as having pages that can't be accessed when people type their
titles because the encoding of an accent is different.

See Unicode annex #15 for full details on normalization:
http://www.unicode.org/unicode/reports/tr15/

The particular issue that originally prompted this fix was file uploads
from Safari, which encodes the filenames -- and thus the created image:
page titles -- in decomposed form, while most text processing is done in
composed form. However it's not the sole problem source.

I can't tell you why the acute/oxia distinction is merged in form C; I
would expect it in KC (compatibility composition) but for canonical
composition it's surprising to me. However this does seem to be how the
Unicode standard defines the canonical mappings, to the best of my
ability to figure it out.

I would very strongly prefer not to make up our own mappings, as form C
is what's generally recommended and _for the most part_ is what happens
'by default'. Form C is being strongly pushed for standard use,
including in the W3C Character Model for the World Wide Web 1.0:
http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod-norm/ [disclaimer: I've only skimmed this
particular document, I have not read it as in depth as the actual
normalization definition]

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050209/8364061c/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikicite project pages (english versions only sofar)

body:
On Feb 9, 2005, at 3:56 PM, James R. Johnson wrote:

> If this project goes through, I'd also suggest original language of
> publication, place of publication (perhaps a part of the publisher
> field),
> and any further language editions of the work, as well as any further
> revisions of the work (e.g. an encyclopedia, almanac, Guiness Book,
> etc.).
> Just some thoughts.
>
> James
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikicite_feature_requests


body:
If you add text to the article, you may add your own cites and you
won't at all irritate me.

You are confusing cites with "see also"s. Cites are not there for
people to get standard reference texts. If I cite 3 books, "Japanese
linguistics", "Languages of the World", and "How to Have Better Sex",
for [[Japanese language]], this doesn't mean all three of them are
standard reference works, it just means I used information I read in
them to write what I wrote.

If, however, I add them in a "see also" section, they should be
standard reference works for the topic and "How to Have Better Sex"
probably doesn't belong.

Mark

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:59:01 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Whenever somebody adds a random cite to an article written mostly or
> >entirely by me, I remove it unless I actually DID use that source.
> >
> So no one is allowed to touch the article references section except
> yourself? That's a little possessive, to say the least. Suppose I
> check your claims against my reference, find them good, see no reason
> to change the text, and add the reference as a token that I've done
> the checking?
>
> References are there for *other* people to use; if you've neglected
> to mention the standard text that readers should look at if they want
> to know more, then other editors need to be able to fix your mistake.
>
> By your reasoning, we could never add to the references section
> for an article written two years ago by someone who has since moved
> on, nor could a 1911EB-derived article ever get updated references,
> at least not without casting a resurrection spell first...
>
> Stan
>
>


body:
Also, while I'd have no qualms about citing ???????????????:??????? in
an English Wikipedia article, I would be wary of including it as a
"see also", even though it is the standard reference work and is a
billion times better than the most comprehensive English-language work
on the topic, "The Languages of Japan" by Masayosi Sibatani, because
that assumes that the majority or even a significant number of readers
will be able to read it, which isn't true.

Mark

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:59:01 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Whenever somebody adds a random cite to an article written mostly or
> >entirely by me, I remove it unless I actually DID use that source.
> >
> So no one is allowed to touch the article references section except
> yourself? That's a little possessive, to say the least. Suppose I
> check your claims against my reference, find them good, see no reason
> to change the text, and add the reference as a token that I've done
> the checking?
>
> References are there for *other* people to use; if you've neglected
> to mention the standard text that readers should look at if they want
> to know more, then other editors need to be able to fix your mistake.
>
> By your reasoning, we could never add to the references section
> for an article written two years ago by someone who has since moved
> on, nor could a 1911EB-derived article ever get updated references,
> at least not without casting a resurrection spell first...
>
> Stan
>
>


from_name: Nathan Hamblen

subject: [Wikitech-l] -- to dash conversion code

body:
Seeing as 1.5 is UTF-8 for all languages (yay), can we parse -- and ---
to N and M dashes? I know there were some problems with wiki table
syntax last time this was attempted, but that's easy to eliminate if you
require spaces around the hyphen-sequence. In that case, as a rule, the
resulting display would have spaces as well (except numbers... more
later). The spaces around dashes are a mini-dispute of their own over at
[[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dashes)]], but I think that people
would be happy just to have an easy, standard way to enter dashes.

Last time this came up someone mentioned other languages that might
forbid a space around dashes. I know that in French it's common to use
dashes at the beginning lines in dialog. This problem has an easy
solution: French keyboards also have a a dash key, unless my memory is
failing me completely. American Mac keyboards have option-hyphen. On
Windows, Word inserts dashes all over the place. People who aren't happy
with the " --- " and " -- " solution would be free to enter unicode
dashes however they wish, as they can today on UTF-8 wikipedias.
(Stubborn space-conscious anglophones might also resort to this
method... so be it.)

I've written a patch that I think is fairly well placed since it's
adjacent to the existing code that inserts non-breaking spaces between
guillemets. This method would make a lot of people happy, and it
promotes compliance to the Manual of Style as much as is possible.
Here's how it works:

1. Replace any ' -- ' with the UTF-8 sequence equivalent to ' – '
2. Replace any '--' between numbers with '–' alone.
3. Replace any ' --- ' with the UTF-8 sequence equivalent to
' — '

See below for the code.

Nathan

Index: Parser.php
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/Parser.php,v
retrieving revision 1.383
diff --unified=3 -w -B -r1.383 Parser.php
--- Parser.php	6 Feb 2005 16:13:05 -0000	1.383
+++ Parser.php	9 Feb 2005 21:15:50 -0000
@@ -185,6 +185,9 @@
  				'/
/i' => '
',
  				'//i' => '
',
  				'/<\\/center *>/i' => '
',
+				'/ -- /i' => "\xC2\xA0\xE2\x80\x93 ", #  –<normal space>
+				'/([0-9])--([0-9])/i' => "\\1\xE2\x80\x93\\2", # –
+				'/ --- /i' => "\xC2\xA0\xE2\x80\x94 " #  —<normal space>
  			);
  			$text = preg_replace( array_keys($fixtags), array_values($fixtags),
$text );
  			$text = Sanitizer::normalizeCharReferences( $text );
@@ -195,7 +198,10 @@
  				# french spaces, Guillemet-right
  				'/(\\302\\253) /i' => '\\1 ',
  				'//i' => '
',
-				'/<\\/center *>/i' => '
'
+				'/<\\/center *>/i' => '
',
+				'/ -- /i' => "\xC2\xA0\xE2\x80\x93 ", #  –<normal space>
+				'/([0-9])--([0-9])/i' => "\\1\xE2\x80\x93\\2", # –
+				'/ --- /i' => "\xC2\xA0\xE2\x80\x94 " #  —<normal space>
  			);
  			$text = preg_replace( array_keys($fixtags), array_values($fixtags),
$text );
  		}


from_name: Andre Engels

body:
It's definitely less work to delete away what you previously wrote if
next time you want to look for something else than to re-write it if
next time you want to check your spelling. I would go even further and
request that after a *succesful* 'Go' search the text remains - it's
been quite often that I got a page, only to grudgingly re-enter my
search text because I intended to do 'search' instead... (Question:
Why didn't you hit 'search' directly then? Answer: I was working on
interlanguage links at the time, and used manual editing of URLs.
Because the 'search' term is different from one language to the next,
copying it would not have helped much)

Andre Engels

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:34:55 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> You'll understand what's wrong with your approach when I give you a list of
> 100 words and phrases to look up on Wikipedia or Dictionary.com (which uses
> the same design).
>
> You can have a text input field inside the search wiki page filled with the
> last search string, and ____clear____ the text input field of the search box.
>
> --
> NSK
> http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


body:
Here is a list I collected approx. a year ago - not all useable, but
most of them. At this moment I just don't have the time to start a page
with another phrase, so if someone would like to create it on any
wiktionary using language templates like {{en}} etc., please let us know
the link (so we can easily transfer it). During the week-end I can
record the sentences in German and Italian (vor St. Valentine and I love
you).

English: I love you
Latin: Te amo
Greek: S' ayapo
French: Je t'aime
Spanish: Te quiero
Portuguese: Amo-te
Italian: Ti amo
Irish: Taim i' ngra leat
German: Ich liebe dich
Dutch: Ik houd van jou
Swedish: Jag a" lskar dig
Hebrew: Ani ohev otah / Ani ohev et otha
Russian: Ya tebya liubliu
Japanese: Kimi o ai shiteru
Chinese: Wo ie ni
Albanian: Te dua
Arabic: Ana behibek / Ana behibak
Armenian: Yes kez si'rumem
Cambodian: Kh_nhaum soro_lahn nhee_ah
Catalan: T'estimo
Bulgarian: Obicham te!
Cheyenne: Ne mohotatse
Creol: Mi aime jou
Ethiopian: Afgreki'
Gaelic: Ta gra agam ort
Hawaiian: Aloha wau ia oi
Hopi: Nu' umi unangwa'ta
Hungarian: Szeretlek
Korean: Dangsinul saranghee yo
Lebanese: Bahibak
Lithuanian: Tave myliu
Mohawk: Konoronhkwa
Moroccan: Kanbhik
Navaho: Ayor anosh'ni

Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
>languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
>project.
>
>--Jimbo
>
>
>


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Il love you - in many languages


subject: [Wikitech-l] Spam on en:PHP

body:
As a bot programmer, I would much regret this possibility. Not because
of the waiting time itself (the bots are already slowing down their
edits to not clutter recentchanges, as well as their other calls to
decrease their use of server time), but because the bots currently
often do not have the page 'served' in the way normal users are - in
many cases the bots get their pages through Special:Export, which
enables getting a number of pages with only one HTTP-request.

Another issue is that it might seriously impact the response time. The
date of viewing must be either received from the submitter
him/herself, or stored at the Wikimedia server. In the first case it
offers very little security, because a bot programmer can easily adopt
their bot to give whatever date suits best as the viewing date. In the
second case some kind of list or database field or whatever needs to
be updated with each view as well as checked with each edit.

Andre Engels

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 00:11:12 +0100, Paul Youlten <paul.youlten at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know much about bots - but they must be much faster then humans at
> making changes? Would it be possible to reject edits that happen less than
> 5 seconds after the page is served? and/or ask users to take a CAPTCHA test
> if they were making an edit to a page less than 15 seconds after it was
> served?


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Valentine's day!

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit:
> It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
> languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
> project.

Hum, I might feel embarassed to record this this time...


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Valentine's day!

body:
> Considering the hostile reaction "Merry Christmas" received in some
> quarters, I'm sure someone will object.
>
> I didn't get any valentines, you insensitive clod!

Hmmmm ... we might change this :-)

And for the rest: one thing I normally do: I never look back - always go
ahead.... so be aware of next Christmas ;-)

I'll try to take up the different occasions to build lists of
"greetings", but I only can do that for occasions I know - other
occasions should be covered by people who know them well.

Ciao, Sabine


body:
Of course.

But Stan is saying that cites are equal to standard reference works. A
well-known fact about the Japanese language may be written in a book
about cats, and it should be cited if used, but that doesn't mean it's
a standard reference work.

Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:21:11 +0000, Tomer Chachamu <the.r3m0t at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:40:05 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think a very important issue here is whether to add cites to
> > articles that we don't know what sources were used.
> >
> > If I wrote the entire text of [[Japanese language]] (which I didn't,
> > this is just an example), without a cite, it would be a very horrible
> > thing in my mind if somebody added a cite for a book I'd never even
> > heard of. It's simply not accurate, and in some cases the book may not
> > even be a good resource.
> >
> > Whenever somebody adds a random cite to an article written mostly or
> > entirely by me, I remove it unless I actually DID use that source.
> > It's very irritating to have people doing that, almost like bees, who
> > while they make honey also tend to annoy people.
>
> Hmm. If something is common knowledge to specialists in the field
> (sounds contradictory, I know) then any reliable cite documenting this
> will do, not just the one you've used.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Guillermo Anasagasti

body:
And

Basque: Maite zaitut

Willy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sabine Cretella" <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it>
To: <wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org>; <wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:38 PM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Il love you - in many languages

> Here is a list I collected approx. a year ago - not all useable, but
> most of them. At this moment I just don't have the time to start a page
> with another phrase, so if someone would like to create it on any
> wiktionary using language templates like {{en}} etc., please let us know
> the link (so we can easily transfer it). During the week-end I can
> record the sentences in German and Italian (vor St. Valentine and I love
> you).
>
> English: I love you
> Latin: Te amo
> Greek: S' ayapo
> French: Je t'aime
> Spanish: Te quiero
> Portuguese: Amo-te
> Italian: Ti amo
> Irish: Taim i' ngra leat
> German: Ich liebe dich
> Dutch: Ik houd van jou
> Swedish: Jag a" lskar dig
> Hebrew: Ani ohev otah / Ani ohev et otha
> Russian: Ya tebya liubliu
> Japanese: Kimi o ai shiteru
> Chinese: Wo ie ni
> Albanian: Te dua
> Arabic: Ana behibek / Ana behibak
> Armenian: Yes kez si'rumem
> Cambodian: Kh_nhaum soro_lahn nhee_ah
> Catalan: T'estimo
> Bulgarian: Obicham te!
> Cheyenne: Ne mohotatse
> Creol: Mi aime jou
> Ethiopian: Afgreki'
> Gaelic: Ta gra agam ort
> Hawaiian: Aloha wau ia oi
> Hopi: Nu' umi unangwa'ta
> Hungarian: Szeretlek
> Korean: Dangsinul saranghee yo
> Lebanese: Bahibak
> Lithuanian: Tave myliu
> Mohawk: Konoronhkwa
> Moroccan: Kanbhik
> Navaho: Ayor anosh'ni
>
>
>
> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
> >It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
> >languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
> >project.
> >
> >--Jimbo
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Gerard schrieb:
| Possibly something could be added to say "this is a URL, don't mess with
| it".

[URL] ?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCCjNwCZKBJbEFcz0RAkkxAJ9AaKQwBrEkDM5Ps9XWRRs7snDPOACfQrQB
dFz0G9qyiZCBfhEf2ISS7m0=
=lJeC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Ant-

> I think the issue is NOT entirely the one of "confusion". But also an
> aspect of image, self-image.
>
> When we use explicitely the word "foundation", we transmit a certain
> message to the reader.

Well, we do explicitly use that word on the website. Do we have to use
it in the domain name? Let's look at some foundations Google gives us:

Rockefeller Foundation - rockfound.org
Ford Foundation - fordfound.org
Heritage Foundation - heritage.org
Apache Software Foundation - apache.org
Free Software Foundation - fsf.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation - eff.org
Arthritis Foundation - arthritis.org
Kellogg Foundation - wkkf.org
Open Societiy Institute - soros.org
Benton Foundation - benton.org
Global SchoolNet Foundation - globalschoolnet.org
MacArthur Foundation - macfound.org
Hewlett Foundation - hewlett.org
Packard Foundation - packard.org
Andrew Mellon Foundation - mellon.org
Carnegie Corporation - carnegie.org
Templeton Foundation - templeton.org
....

Most large, successful foundations have one thing in common: short
domain names. Besides the ones listed, many have haphazardly constructed
three- or four-letter acronyms, and some major ones even use the ugly
shorthand "found" as a disambiguation instead of the longer
"foundation". Whenever possible, foundations seem to use the word.org
form. Make no mistake, there's plenty of foundations with "foundation"
in the URL, but for the cases I could come up with, this is because a
shorter name was not available (e.g. gates.org is taken by some guy's
mail server). I haven't found a single one which redirects a short name
to a longer one.

Having a short domain name is very important. Many people don't use
bookmarks, and they will visit a site only if they feel like typing the
name. wikimediafoundation.org is 23 characters, longer than every single
name on the Alexa top 100 websites list. Conveying the message that we
are a foundation is best left to the website content, in my opinion,
rather than the domain name. I don't see emphasis as a sufficient reason
to keep a long name, otherwise we might as well call it
wikimedianonprofit.org or wikimediafreeknowledge.org to emphasize other
aspects of importance.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Nicolas Weeger

body:
We can always redirect www.wikimedia.com to www.wikimediafoundation.org

This way, people can type the short way to get to the site.

Nicolas [[Ryo]]


from_name: cookfire

body:
Sabine Cretella wrote:

> Here is a list I collected approx. a year ago - not all useable, but
> most of them. At this moment I just don't have the time to start a
> page with another phrase, so if someone would like to create it on any
> wiktionary using language templates like {{en}} etc., please let us
> know the link (so we can easily transfer it). During the week-end I
> can record the sentences in German and Italian (vor St. Valentine and
> I love you).
>
> English: I love you
> Latin: Te amo
> Greek: S' ayapo
> French: Je t'aime
> Spanish: Te quiero
> Portuguese: Amo-te
> Italian: Ti amo
> Irish: Taim i' ngra leat
> German: Ich liebe dich
> Dutch: Ik houd van jou
> Swedish: Jag a" lskar dig
> Hebrew: Ani ohev otah / Ani ohev et otha
> Russian: Ya tebya liubliu
> Japanese: Kimi o ai shiteru
> Chinese: Wo ie ni
> Albanian: Te dua
> Arabic: Ana behibek / Ana behibak
> Armenian: Yes kez si'rumem
> Cambodian: Kh_nhaum soro_lahn nhee_ah
> Catalan: T'estimo
> Bulgarian: Obicham te!
> Cheyenne: Ne mohotatse
> Creol: Mi aime jou
> Ethiopian: Afgreki'
> Gaelic: Ta gra agam ort
> Hawaiian: Aloha wau ia oi
> Hopi: Nu' umi unangwa'ta
> Hungarian: Szeretlek
> Korean: Dangsinul saranghee yo
> Lebanese: Bahibak
> Lithuanian: Tave myliu
> Mohawk: Konoronhkwa
> Moroccan: Kanbhik
> Navaho: Ayor anosh'ni
>
>
>
> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>> It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
>> languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
>> project.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>
The English Wiktionary already has a page like that:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/I_love_you

It would indeed be great to hear it in that many languages.

Polyglot


from_name: Petr Kadlec

subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
> | Possibly something could be added to say "this is a URL, don't mess with
> | it".
>
> [URL] ?

In fact, this does not work, try [http://www.example.com/''foo'']. But
I have to say I don't consider it to be the greatest problem of
MediaWiki. :-)

-- [[:cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]


from_name: Arne Klempert

body:
On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:41 AM
Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Erik Moeller a ?crit:
>> I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point
>> with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to
>> the Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain,
>> not even ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would
>> like to inquire what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If
>> they failed, is there any chance that we can get the domain by
>> virtue of owning the trademark rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain
>> name not being used in any other way by its owner?
>
> Negociations were under way with a member of the german association. I
> do not remember with certainty who. Possibly akl.

Yes. After I got no respond to my first mail (should be in the archive
of this list) I tried it by phone (didn't reach the person who is named
in the whois database, but the guy I talked to seemed to qualify for
making decisions). He said he would have a look at my mail and would
respond - but he didn't. After a kind reminder mail I called him again,
and he said again that he would answer the mail - but he didn't.

After that I came to the conclusion that he won't give it away unless
we're putting the screws on. So I decided to wait until Wikimedia is
registered as a trademark at least in the U.S. Could anyone tell me if
this is already done?

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks
seems a little bit outdated :-(

I'll forward my mails and the contact informations to Erik.

-Arne (akl)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: -- to dash conversion code

body:
Tomer Chachamu wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:25:27 -0500, Nathan Hamblen <nhamblen at mac.com> wrote:
>>2. Replace any '--' between numbers with '–' alone.
>
> Does this work for "2mm-3m"? "50KHz-1GHz"? What happens if it doesn't work?

It works, that pattern wouldn't match so it there would be no replacement.

> Maybe you could have attached it to a feature request at
> http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org and that would keep track of this
> better. :)

Maybe. There is a bug there, I queried "dash", but it looks kind of
lonely (no comments at all). I thought I would post here first.

Nathan


body:
David Monniaux wrote:
> Nathan Hamblen wrote:
>>  problem has an easy solution: French keyboards also have a a dash key
> They don't, at least normal PC keyboards don't.

Damn. Well, anyway, at least you have ?. ;) If people want it, we could
also match '\n--- ', but I doubt there are too many dialogues being
recounted over at fr.wikipedia.

> Sounds like LaTeX.

Right, I think that's where people got the idea to do it that way here.
(Wasn't me...)

Nathan


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Grant meeting

body:
I am not aware he opposed at all the attempt made for this grant last
summer : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NEH_grant_application

Sooooo, he might have changed his mind :-)

If not, we can discuss this.

Delirium a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> In particular, last year, we thought of asking a NEH
>> grant, but the deadlines were too short. We might try
>> again this year. The work to do is not only setting up
>> figures, but there is also a lot of work simply
>> describing our project, gathering statistics or press
>> clipings, helping on the layout, fixing typos,
>> improving style etc...
>>
> I thought last time this came up, Jimbo indicated he was fairly strongly
> against the idea of Wikipedia seeking grants from governments or
> government agencies?
>
> -Mark


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Grant meeting


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com?

body:
Arne Klempert a ?crit:

> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks
> seems a little bit outdated :-(

Indeeeeeed.
Well, I updated what I knew for certain.

I would prefer Erik, that you do not do anything anymore until we have
more information on wikimedia trademarks. Obviously, the owner of
wikimedia.com is not very motivated, so best to approach him with
something more solid.

Ant


from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject: [Wikitech-l] Problems with Wiki on a Stick/USB Flash Drive

body:
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 18:26:50 +0000, Alison Russell
<alisonrussellireland at hotmail.com> wrote:
> help would be appreciated!! I am stuck at the section Configure The Wiki -
> Initial Wiki Configuration.
>
> I am at the stage of starting the web and database servers by running the
> start.bat file in the folder UniServer3_2. Is that all i have to do? I don't
> understand the bit about start.bat w mysql in the document. Running the
> batch file does open the web browser re-direct page, but then when I try to
> open localhost/wi/config/index.php I just get "Page cannot be found" error
> message.
>
> Any ideas? I've checked for log files for any clues, as suggested by
> troubleshooting section, but they haven't been created yet.
>
> Also I am not sure about the HTTP TCP Port section and how to check if
> another Apache.exe is running(both referred to in the document).

"start.bat w mysql" is for your command prompt or as a line in a batch
file. It will set up Apache (with PHP, Perl) on a new fake disk W: and
start MySQL too.

If that doesn't work, run start.bat and go to http://localhost/a/ and
click on "Start MySQL Server" on the left. A prompt will briefly pop
up and disappear.

Did you extract the MediaWiki source into a directory "wi"? Try going
to W:\www\ and find the MediaWiki source code. If you can't find it,
no worries; just unpack it to there.


body:
Brazilian Portuguese: "Eu te amo".

"Amo-te" is not used in Brazil.

e2m


subject: [Wikitech-l] Spam on en:PHP

body:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:51:52 +1100, Zigger <zigger at gmail.com> wrote:
> LiveJournal offer an audio alternative to fuzzy characters --
> https://www.livejournal.com/create.bml  (& https for privacy).
> Although I can't try it from here, I guess it works.

As do Hotmail.


body:
Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since the only
trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan and Europe.

But Jimbo will update it with more information soon.

Given what Akl is reporting, the owner of www.wikimedia.com probably was
not very willing to negociate.
We do not have more in hands to motivate him yet : we need to ensure
wikimedia is registered in the USA, which would be very useful for the
negociation.
So Erik, please hold on.
Thanks

Anthere

Arne Klempert a ?crit:
> On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:41 AM
> Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Erik Moeller a ?crit:
>>
>>>I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point
>>>with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to
>>>the Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain,
>>>not even ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would
>>>like to inquire what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If
>>>they failed, is there any chance that we can get the domain by
>>>virtue of owning the trademark rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain
>>>name not being used in any other way by its owner?
>>
>>Negociations were under way with a member of the german association. I
>>do not remember with certainty who. Possibly akl.
>
>
> Yes. After I got no respond to my first mail (should be in the archive
> of this list) I tried it by phone (didn't reach the person who is named
> in the whois database, but the guy I talked to seemed to qualify for
> making decisions). He said he would have a look at my mail and would
> respond - but he didn't. After a kind reminder mail I called him again,
> and he said again that he would answer the mail - but he didn't.
>
> After that I came to the conclusion that he won't give it away unless
> we're putting the screws on. So I decided to wait until Wikimedia is
> registered as a trademark at least in the U.S. Could anyone tell me if
> this is already done?
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks
> seems a little bit outdated :-(
>
> I'll forward my mails and the contact informations to Erik.
>
> -Arne (akl)


body:
> ISBNs are of limited value since they were only adopted in 1970.  Most
> of that material is still copyright protected.  The public domain
> material on Wikisource is much older than that, and has no ISBNs.
>
> Ec
>

Once ISBN is implemented we can expand to LCCN, which is everything
copyright in the US library of Congress, and is not a copyright system.
 From this other call numbers, provided they can be referenced in the
public domain, will be possible. ISBN's are not of "limited" value,
since anything which has had an edition since then has one. This
includes many texts which were produced prior to 1970, and virtually
all of the commonly cited material on wikipedia. Since the proposed
format allows for different types of identifiers, it will be a simple
matter to add additional identifiers by which material may be cited.


from_name: F L

subject: [WikiEN-l] Question about researching Wikipedia

body:
I'm a graduate student at the University of Michigan
School of Information (and also an admin at Wikipedia,
username Ffirehorse). I'm considering a long research
paper on the dynamics of community at Wikipedia for a
class on online communities that I'm taking this term.

My question is about protocol, and the reason I'm
asking it is because I'm not having much success in
locating on Wikimedia or Wikipedia any policy or
guidelines on how to approach the community in terms
of consent. Would a community-wide announcement be
sufficient? As someone who is already a member of the
community, while I'm doing the research, would it be
advisable to post some sort of note on my user page
that I'm also conducting research?

Or is the sort of activity that I'm proposing (i.e.,
researching Wikipedia while also contributing as a
member) generally frowned upon? If so, I will drop the
idea without hesitation.

The research I'm considering would be in the form of
unobtrusive observation of norms, practices, routines,
and other forms of community-forming activity on
Wikipedia, and would not likely involve any direct
interaction with Wikipedia users. I'd be happy to go
into further detail about the specifics if need be.

Any guidance/feedback would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Frank Lester

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com


from_name: Stirling Newberry

body:
>
>> Chinese: Wo ie ni
>>
> Wo3 ai4 ni3.
>

The Wo is often dropped in practical use.


from_name: Ginu George

body:
Nice hearing that in the list. If you know the contact details of
them, then give me off the list. I am from dubai and i can co-ordinate
that then

Regards
George

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:04:37 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> A few weeks.  These are the people who invited me over to Israel and
> arranged for me to speak at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and Tel
> Aviv University.  Their CEO is a huge fan of wikipedia, and is
> increasingly a supporter of the Wikimedia Foundation.  Good people, very
> supportive of NPOV and of our charitable ideals.
>
> Christiaan Briggs wrote:
>
> > I was looking up the word orchard via google today and noticed that
> > they have a Wikipedia section:
> > http://www.answers.com/orchard&r=67
> >
> > http://snipurl.com/cna7
> >
> > Cool, how long have they been doing this?
> >
> > Christiaan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> --
> "La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Regards
Ginu George
www.ginugeorge.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] A counterpoint to the mobilization of Stormfront

body:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 05:09:23 -0800, Catherine Munro <artslave at usa.net> wrote:
> A group with an agenda (opposition to a drastic type of surgery to treat
> sweating disorders) discovered Wikipedia, said, "hey, we can support our
> agenda there"...."but wait, they have an NPOV policy"...."that's ok, we can
> do that"..."in fact, let's invite the doctors who support the treatment to
> come work on it"....
> http://www.esfbchannel.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=ETS_General&action=display&num=1100250508
>
> And now, two months later, we have a fairly balanced little article on
> [[Endoscopic thoracic sympathectomy]], which the group is now telling other
> ETS/anti-ETS sites they can use and copy (WITH proper GFDL linking and
> credit, no less!):
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endoscopic_thoracic_sympathectomy

No, they didn't say any of that verbatim. They never even mentioned
pushing agenda.


from_name: Lars Alvik

body:
And Norwegian: "Jeg elsker deg".

mvh.

Lars Alvik

P? 9. feb. 2005 kl. 16:49 skrev Guillermo Anasagasti:

> And
>
> Basque: Maite zaitut
>
> Willy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sabine Cretella" <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it>
> To: <wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org>; <wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:38 PM
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Il love you - in many languages
>
>
>> Here is a list I collected approx. a year ago - not all useable, but
>> most of them. At this moment I just don't have the time to start a
>> page
>> with another phrase, so if someone would like to create it on any
>> wiktionary using language templates like {{en}} etc., please let us
>> know
>> the link (so we can easily transfer it). During the week-end I can
>> record the sentences in German and Italian (vor St. Valentine and I
>> love
>> you).
>>
>> English: I love you
>> Latin: Te amo
>> Greek: S' ayapo
>> French: Je t'aime
>> Spanish: Te quiero
>> Portuguese: Amo-te
>> Italian: Ti amo
>> Irish: Taim i' ngra leat
>> German: Ich liebe dich
>> Dutch: Ik houd van jou
>> Swedish: Jag a" lskar dig
>> Hebrew: Ani ohev otah / Ani ohev et otha
>> Russian: Ya tebya liubliu
>> Japanese: Kimi o ai shiteru
>> Chinese: Wo ie ni
>> Albanian: Te dua
>> Arabic: Ana behibek / Ana behibak
>> Armenian: Yes kez si'rumem
>> Cambodian: Kh_nhaum soro_lahn nhee_ah
>> Catalan: T'estimo
>> Bulgarian: Obicham te!
>> Cheyenne: Ne mohotatse
>> Creol: Mi aime jou
>> Ethiopian: Afgreki'
>> Gaelic: Ta gra agam ort
>> Hawaiian: Aloha wau ia oi
>> Hopi: Nu' umi unangwa'ta
>> Hungarian: Szeretlek
>> Korean: Dangsinul saranghee yo
>> Lebanese: Bahibak
>> Lithuanian: Tave myliu
>> Mohawk: Konoronhkwa
>> Moroccan: Kanbhik
>> Navaho: Ayor anosh'ni
>>
>>
>>
>> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>>
>>> It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
>>> languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
>>> project.
>>>
>>> --Jimbo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: pinco

body:
Hi,
I would like to create a "I love it"-page, but I've never used wiktionary!
I tried it and I got: http://eo.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Mi_amas_vin

What's wrong with that?

Ciao,
Nino

Sabine Cretella ha scritto:

> Here is a list I collected approx. a year ago - not all useable, but
> most of them. At this moment I just don't have the time to start a
> page with another phrase, so if someone would like to create it on any
> wiktionary using language templates like {{en}} etc., please let us
> know the link (so we can easily transfer it). During the week-end I
> can record the sentences in German and Italian (vor St. Valentine and
> I love you).
>
> English: I love you
> Latin: Te amo
> Greek: S' ayapo
> French: Je t'aime
> Spanish: Te quiero
> Portuguese: Amo-te
> Italian: Ti amo
> Irish: Taim i' ngra leat
> German: Ich liebe dich
> Dutch: Ik houd van jou
> Swedish: Jag a" lskar dig
> Hebrew: Ani ohev otah / Ani ohev et otha
> Russian: Ya tebya liubliu
> Japanese: Kimi o ai shiteru
> Chinese: Wo ie ni
> Albanian: Te dua
> Arabic: Ana behibek / Ana behibak
> Armenian: Yes kez si'rumem
> Cambodian: Kh_nhaum soro_lahn nhee_ah
> Catalan: T'estimo
> Bulgarian: Obicham te!
> Cheyenne: Ne mohotatse
> Creol: Mi aime jou
> Ethiopian: Afgreki'
> Gaelic: Ta gra agam ort
> Hawaiian: Aloha wau ia oi
> Hopi: Nu' umi unangwa'ta
> Hungarian: Szeretlek
> Korean: Dangsinul saranghee yo
> Lebanese: Bahibak
> Lithuanian: Tave myliu
> Mohawk: Konoronhkwa
> Moroccan: Kanbhik
> Navaho: Ayor anosh'ni
>
>
>
> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>> It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
>> languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
>> project.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>

--
http://www.vessella.it (italiano, esperanto, kiswahili, english)
http://www.changamano.org (Iniziative di solidarieta` per la Tanzania)
http://www.lernado.it (Articoli di quotidiani della Tanzania, Corso di lingua swahili, Corso di lingua esperanto, Vocabolario esperanto-italiano, Jifunze lugha ya Kiesperanto, Kamusi ya Kiesperanto)


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 19, Issue 29

body:
F L wrote:

>I'm a graduate student at the University of Michigan
>School of Information (and also an admin at Wikipedia,
>username Ffirehorse). I'm considering a long research
>paper on the dynamics of community at Wikipedia for a
>class on online communities that I'm taking this term.
>
>
>My question is about protocol, and the reason I'm
>asking it is because I'm not having much success in
>locating on Wikimedia or Wikipedia any policy or
>guidelines on how to approach the community in terms
>of consent. Would a community-wide announcement be
>sufficient? As someone who is already a member of the
>community, while I'm doing the research, would it be
>advisable to post some sort of note on my user page
>that I'm also conducting research?
>
>Or is the sort of activity that I'm proposing (i.e.,
>researching Wikipedia while also contributing as a
>member) generally frowned upon? If so, I will drop the
>idea without hesitation.
>
>The research I'm considering would be in the form of
>unobtrusive observation of norms, practices, routines,
>and other forms of community-forming activity on
>Wikipedia, and would not likely involve any direct
>interaction with Wikipedia users. I'd be happy to go
>into further detail about the specifics if need be.
>
>Any guidance/feedback would be appreciated.
>
>
I'm not sure what kind of consent you're concerned about, but I would
think that for research purposes, Wikipedia is pretty clearly a public
arena that can be researched freely. Research about Wikipedia is
certainly permitted, I would even say encouraged. There's even a
fledgling WikiProject devoted to the idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikidemia

Researching while being a Wikipedia editor is not a concern, as long as
your edits are legitimately focused on Wikipedia goals, and not designed
to conduct a test or prove a point. A typical problem is people
vandalizing articles to see how quickly the vandalism gets removed.
Research by observation should be fine.

If you want to disclose on your user page that you're conducting
research, you can invite anyone who has questions to contact you on your
talk page. Also, if you let us know the results of your research, I'm
sure that would be greatly appreciated.

--Michael Snow


subject: [Wikitech-l] Guessing interface language from Accept-Language

body:
I now like this idea and would support it in a vote. :)

>> Cannot Internet Explorer be told to request other languages than the
>> Windows default one?

>I think it can, but there are browsers (for example, Konqueror) which can't.

I already explained how, although in my opinion it's pretty well hidden.

Are you sure about Konquerer? I would swear the option is available
towards the end of the KDE Control Center. That's a massive control
panel, so I guess that's well hidden too... ;)


body:
Hi Nino,

there's nothing wrong with it - the templates are not present - I'll
care about that tomorrof after having delivered my work. For now I'll
leave a message on the discussion page in order to let people know about
this.

You did a great job. Thank you!!!

Ciao, Sabine

pinco wrote:

> Hi,
> I would like to create a "I love it"-page, but I've never used
> wiktionary!
> I tried it and I got:
> http://eo.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Mi_amas_vin
>
> What's wrong with that?
>
> Ciao,
> Nino
>


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content
	by Infoslurp.com

body:
> There is a very (*very*) long list of known mirrors, along with
> GFDL-compliance status, at [[en:Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks]].

No wonder I couldn't find it. I was looking on meta.


body:
On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:56 PM
Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since
> the only trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan
> and Europe.

That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark
is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the
Madrid Agreement.

"Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia,
MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel
confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get
some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration
numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters.

-Arne (akl)


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content by
	Infoslurp.com

body:
They make people believe they are wikipedia based on what is written on
their main page. In itself, it is definitly not correct.

Second, they mention no where (except weird circumvoluted comments on
their disclaimer pages, which no one would understand but us) that the
content is from Wikipedia. In particular, nothing is on articles. No
reference to name, or link to history of the page.
This is a clear violation of copyright.

On top of it, if they suck Wikipedia real time, this is real bad press
for them.

Incidently, all their links to other languages and other projects are
broken.

I recommand some one take his best pen and write them a gentle letter
pointing out to all the relevant places. If there is a page somewhere
listing mirrors under violation of our copyright, consider adding it to it.

Anthere

PS : Reading their disclaimer, I wonder if it might not be a joke...

Rhobite a ?crit:
> Hold on a sec, this isn't just a mirror. They're scraping Wikipedia
> pages in real time and serving them up with ads. It may not be a GFDL
> violation but they're using server resources every time someone views
> a page. I think web sites which have done this before were cut off
> from accessing Wikipedia.
>
> Rhobite


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content
	byInfoslurp.com

body:
Bobby Maisnam a ?crit:
> I got 19 hits. Out of them, 12 display Google AdSense links. I did not
> realize that so many sites are using Wikipedia content to collect Google
> AdSense revenue.
>
> - Bobby
>

Nod. Some suggested we could have our own official mirror with ads while
Wikipedia stays free of it.


body:
Arne Klempert a ?crit:
> On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:56 PM
> Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since
>>the only trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan
>>and Europe.
>
>
> That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark
> is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the
> Madrid Agreement.

Well, still... according to Jimbo... this is a fact.

I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't get
protected unless it is first protected in the USA ???

What sort of an agreement is that ?????

> "Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia,
> MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel
> confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get
> some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration
> numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters.
>
> -Arne (akl)

Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need
to torture him to do so.


body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:59:56 +0100 (CET), Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se> wrote:
> Who are these people at LoC?  Does their project have a name?
>
> I think the best way is to digitize every book and give each page a
> URL, like this, http://runeberg.org/pictswed/0219.html
>
> We already know how to handle URLs, and it's only a matter of time
> until we have scanned every book and newspaper there is.  I would
> guess the task will be completed within the next 50 years.  Most of us
> will be around to see it.

Scanning is difficult. I know that in the British Library and other
copyright libraries, photocopying (and therefore scanning) of a book
has to be one page at a time: you cannot open a book flat for
photocopying, but let one page at a time dangle on the side of the
photocopier. Also, material beyond a certain age may not be
photocopied at all. (I think you might also need permission
sometimes).

I don't know how far back the Library of Congress goes, but these may apply.

Also, these things are copyrighted. :P