body:
btw, my bad...go here
http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_History_Project for a look at the
first K-12 textbook project to just get underway - well done! A great start,
and congratulations to all for getting to this initial stage. Jimbo was
right, "ask Wikipedia, and ye shall receive"

Sanford

----- Original Message -----
From: "KNOTT, T" <TKNOTT at qcl.org.uk>
To: "'Wikimedia textbook discussion'" <textbook-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 12:29 AM
Subject: RE: [Textbook-l] NYT article on textbook prices

> I agree. Although it would be nice to get new contributors, we should wait
> until we get at least one book relatively finished.
>
> A quick question from a brit ? Is K12 high school? I'm currently working
on
> a science textbook based around the UK science syllabus for kids aged
14-16
> I wonder I some of my pages can be adapted by someone for the US and the
> rest of the world.
>
> Theresa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sanford Forte [mailto:siforte at ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: 16 September 2003 21:59
> To: Wikimedia textbook discussion
> Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] NYT article on textbook prices
>
> Yes. This has been a problem for years. It's like skimming cream off the
top
> for college textbook publishers. Also, K-12 publishers are just as greedy.
> We need to get the K-12 project going. Believe me, once we create a
> *quality* K-12 book, based on strict state framework standards (ideally,
> California, because that would make, by far, the biggest impact), we could
> revolutionize the whole textbook creation and adoption process. University
> books are also ripe for reform, but they are really less of a challenge
than
> the K-12 sector. The K-12 publishers really have a stranglehold on the
> books, the pricing, and the process. Millions of kids, parents, and
> teachers - and our society - lose in this antiquated process.
>
> Before sending anything to Slashdot, as Karl suggests, I think it would
> behoove us to get something substantial underway, or have something
> finished. Otherwise, it's just empty promises.
>
> Here are some more links to an excellent series (expose) in K-12 books
that
> was done about 8 months ago in the San Jose Mercury News. Additionally, an
> excellent piece from Forbes.
> http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/4743883.htm
> http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/living/education/4749572.htm
> http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/living/education/4756801.htm
>
> http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2000/1030/6612178a_print.html
>
> Best,
> Sanford
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> To: "Wikimedia textbook discussion" <textbook-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 12:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] NYT article on textbook prices
>
>
> >
> > --- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > This was on the front page of my local paper this
> > > morning:
> > >
> > > "When Books Break the Bank"
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/16/nyregion/16BOOK.html?pagewanted=all&positi
> on=
> > >
> > > An article about outrageous textbook prices and the
> > > things
> > > that students are doing to avoid paying them. (No
> > > mention
> > > of our site unfortunately).
> > >
> > > I saw old NYT articles on Sept 11 archived on the
> > > main
> > > wikipedia .. could we do that with this one, put the
> > > text
> > > on Wikibooks ?
> >
> > I'm sorry to say this, but no Wikibooks book is
> > anywhere near usable quality, especially in a college
> > environment.
> > LDan
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Textbook-l mailing list
> > Textbook-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Bot for generating articles on cities in Israel

body:
Adam Raizen wrote:

> I would like to use a bot to upload articles on cities in Israel based
> on information from Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics
> (http://www.cbs.gov.il), a la Rambot. You can see an example article
> at [[User:AdamRaizen/Ramla]]. Any objections or comments?

I've looked at the site and found this in the copyright notice:

    User must respect the "moral rights" of the CBS and the State of
    Israel in the copyrighted material. Therefore, when quoting from
    the copyrighted material, User must attribute the source to the
    Central Bureau of Statistics of the State of Israel. In addition,
    User may not alter, modify or in any other fashion change the
    copyrighted material, and may not do any other act which might
    diminish the value of the copyrighted material in a manner which
    would cast aspersion on the State of Israel or on the CBS.

It seems to me that using this material could at least in part be a
violation of copyrights.. Has anyone looked into this.

Ec


from_name: Delirium

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> I've looked at the site and found this in the copyright notice:
>
>    User must respect the "moral rights" of the CBS and the State of
>    Israel in the copyrighted material. Therefore, when quoting from
>    the copyrighted material, User must attribute the source to the
>    Central Bureau of Statistics of the State of Israel. In addition,
>    User may not alter, modify or in any other fashion change the
>    copyrighted material, and may not do any other act which might
>    diminish the value of the copyrighted material in a manner which
>    would cast aspersion on the State of Israel or on the CBS.
>
>
> It seems to me that using this material could at least in part be a
> violation of copyrights.. Has anyone looked into this.

If we're just using the statistics, and not the original wording, it
should be fine, at least in the US, where courts have ruled that mere
factual information is not protected by copyright (even if the original
publisher went to a lot of trouble to collect it).

-Mark


from_name: Adam Raizen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Bot for generating articles on cities in Israel

body:
Steve Vertigum wrote:
> --- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>What do you mean "Jewish and other"? Are all
>>christians there arab? are there no arab jews? Are
>>you
>>treating Jewish as an ethnicity or a religion? It
>>looks like ethnicity from the context.
>>LDan
>
>
> LD is correct to point out this distinciton. As I
> understand tit, an Jewish Arab, living in Israel, is
> virtually a contradiction in terms.  An Arab in
> "disputed land" is not considered a citizen. An Arab
> cannot live for long in Israel without attempting to
> gain citizenship. Because the state wishes to
> artificially keep its proportions predominantly
> Jewish, there is an extreme hardship. On the other,
> (as I understand it) a Jew on "disputed land"
> considered an Israeli, because even "disputed land" is
> still Israeli land.
>
> All of these are apartheid distinctions and it is
> right to point out that Jewishness is more of a
> context, than it is anything to generate statistics
> by.  If there was a clear definition by the Rabbinate
> as to ultimately who is qualified for "Israeli
> citizenship" --and were there any accurate statistics
> dealing with Palestinian refugees, then there could be
> a way to establish the merits of such a system's
> statistics.
> As it stands, they are about as useful as those from
> South Africa in the 1980s or the US in the 30's.
>
> ~S~

Well! Let's save the edit wars for the articles themselevs, okay? There
will be a link to an article which explains the demographic groups in
Israel, which we can fight over all we want.

--Adam Raizen


from_name: Björn Lindqvist

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: BuddhaInside

body:
 >>75% is not a consensus,
 >
 >
 > Actually it is. A consensus is generally interpretated as meaning a
clear
 > and unambiguous majority. In democratic systems, a consensus is
generally
 > defined as two-thirds plus one. Three quarters is described as an
 > 'overwhelming consensus'.  Lynch and Jones, ''Political Decision
Making in

Two-thirds majority is, if my dictionary is correct, called absolute
or relative majority. Two-thirds plus one is called super majority. I
have never heard a definition of consensus where 75% majority
constitutes a "consensus". Generally when consensus is used with
"exceptions" it is called consensus minus one, minus two, minus 1%
etc.

Regardless, it is to misuse the term of consensus to call a decision
approved by 75% of the voters and disapproved by 25% of the voters a
consensus decision. Consensus decisions are aimed to take into account
everyone's opinion and to take a decision everyone is satisfied
with. If 25% of the voters are unhappy that has not happened.

Btw, I think consensus is a very stupid form of "democracy" that leads
to a techno-cracy or a shout-o-cracy or a
post-on-the-mailing-list-o-cracy. It would be good if Wikipedia had a
better way to make decisions.

 > Divided Societies'' pp.214-215. Whyte and Reynard, ''Consociational
 > Democracy and Consensus Building: From the Lebanon to Belgium: Case
Studies
 > in Democractic Consensus'' p. 190.
 >
 > Most deletions on wiki occur because of votes by a small number. Very
few
 > votes attract nearly 30 voters and those with large numbers rarely
produce
 > 75% agreement.
 >
 >
 >>I can understand a user getting angry if it is a page s/he has spent
a lot
 >>of time on. This user seems to rather be in a deep disagreement with the
 >>majority of Wikipedia users/sysops rather than a genuine troll. In
general
 >>I agree.
 >
 >
 > The people he has fallen out with are people who that he show the
community
 > the respect of following agreed conventions and methodologies, rather
than

I thought the whole controversy started with his pet page getting
deleted? Besides, the evidence for his wrongdoings presented for the
mailinglist jury hasn't been to compelling imho.

Besides, "agreed conventions and methodologies" are they really so
generally agreed if rule-breakers always have to be referred to them?

 > act like a spoiled child who throws tantrums because he cannot get
things
 > his way. Many of the people he has fallen out with are sysops. Many
are not.

Why did you divide the people he has "fallen out with" in sysops and
non-sysops?

I don't know who I think is the spoiled kid who throws tantrums... :-)
Many times it seems like it is the Wikipedia sysops themselves that
are the least willing to compromise.  What we are talking about is a
few hundred bytes of text, likely smaller than this message I'm
sending to you. It is really so important to get pages like that one
deleted that it is worth all the effort, anger and fuss it costs?
Couldn't a more sensible solution have been reached if Budda's stupid
heterosexual page had remained? It is not the end of time we are
talking about!

 > Some agree with his opinions. Some don't. But all find his behaviour
well
 > beyonds the bounds of respect for the community.

Isn't it just as much yours and mine, and everyone else who considers
themselves Wikipedia veterans responsibility as the new users
responsiblity to make them behave within the bounds of respect for the
community?

BL


body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> --- Adam Raizen <araizen at newmail.net> wrote:
>
>>>The ethnic makeup of the city is 80.5% Jewish and
>>>other, and 20.0% Arab (15.4% Muslim and 4.0%
>>>Christian). There are 450 new immigrants.
>>
>>What's unclear about it? Also, do you think that
>>there are too many
>>statistics, or too few? There are a lot more
>>statistics available, but I
>>don't want to clutter up the pages with a bunch of
>>useless statistics.
>>--Adam Raizen
>
>
> What do you mean "Jewish and other"? Are all
> christians there arab? are there no arab jews? Are you
> treating Jewish as an ethnicity or a religion? It
> looks like ethnicity from the context.
> LDan

My explanation from [[User talk:AdamRaizen/Ramla]]:

 >It's other non-Arab. This is the CBS's category, and it doesn't
 >break it down any further. In general, other refers to people who are
 >married to a Jew, or whose father or grandfather was Jewish, and thus
 >immigrated under the Law of Return, but aren't considered Jewish by the
 >Rabbinate. Culturally, they're basically the same a secular Israeli
 >Jew, so the category makes some sense.

Arabs who convert to Judaism are very rare, and I'm nearly certain that
they're considered Jews in these figures. Likewise, non-Arab Muslims and
Christians are negligible.

 > Are you refering to the fact that Judiasm, according
 > to the laws therof, is transfered from mother to child
 > (as written at [[Judaism#Who_is_a_Jew]])? If so, I'd
 > suggest that you chage
 >
 > The ethnic makeup of the city is 80.5% Jewish and
 > other, and 20.0% Arab (15.4% Muslim and 4.0%
 > Christian). There are 450 new immigrants.
 >
 > to
 >
 > Tje ethnic makeup of the city is 80.5% Jewish by
 > ethnicity and 20.0% Arab, consisting of 15.4% Muslim,
 > and 4.0% Christian. There are 450 new immigrants since
 > the last time the census was taken.

Distinguishing between Jewish ethnicity, Jewish religion, and who the
State of Israel considers as Jewish is not an easy task. I'll add "See
[[Population groups in Israel]]." to the end of the ethnicity paragraph,
so that we can refine and expound the categories there in detail.

I don't see how your proposed change is an improvement (or even a
change, really). The categories "Jewish" and "Arab" are clearly
ethnicities (with some complications for "Jewish") as specified by "the
ethnic makeup", but no one considers "Christian" or "Muslim" to be
anything other than a religion, so there shouldn't be any confusion there.

By the way, for reference, the exact category names used by the CBS are:
"Jews and others (percent)", "Arab population (percent)", "Muslim Arabs
(percent)", "Arab Christians (percent)", and "Druze (percent)".

 > Yes, I do think a table would be easier to read, but
 > there should also be some content in paragraph form.

Is there any more support for tables, even though it breaks with the
style set in Rambot's articles?

 > I'll try to find content to put in the articles that
 > is automated. So far, I've found
 > http://www.iula.org.il/cities/citind.htm, a list of
 > links to the websites of all of the big cities in
 > Israel, but that's it, and it probably would go into
 > the table.
 > LDan

This is great. I'll be sure to include those, under "External Links".

--Adam Raizen


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jake Nelson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Table markup

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> The body may contain legitimate javascript, such as the table of
> contents show/hide code.

I can't resist: legitimate javascript? Isn't that an oxymoron?

;)

Carry on.

-- Jake


body:
Steve Vertigum wrote:
> --- Adam Raizen <araizen at newmail.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Distinguishing between Jewish ethnicity, Jewish
>>religion, and who the
>>State of Israel considers as Jewish is not an easy
>>task.
>
>
> But it would be a good start to sort this out *before
> coming up with "statistics" wouldnt it?

The statistics already exist; I don't have the means to do my own poll.
Now it's just a question of whether to add them to Wikipedia, and if so,
in what form and with what explanation. So far, you're the only one to
object, and not on any specific reason to distrust the statistics, but
just on a general distrust of Israel. For the nth time, this will be
explained in detail in an article linked to from the bot's articles.

>>This is great. I'll be sure to include those, under
>>"External Links".
>
>
> Ah. Such effortless effort should be noted for its
> notability.
>
> ;)
> ~S~

What exactly are you objecting to?

 > Well your right about us getting too carried away. On
 > the other hand, your avoiding the issue --- this
 > thread was about en masse stats uploaded via a bot.

I'm not avoiding the issue. I've posted explanations of the demographic
categories in a couple of different messages, and I'll expand upon that
in the article which will be linked to from all the bot-generated
articles. If you can't find the explanations, I'll collect them and
repost them. If you have any specific objections, I'd like to hear them.
If you have any specific questions that I haven't answered, ask away.

 > Unless there is a bot to go around and correct these,
 > I think we can let my statement stand that we should
 > pinch our collective nose at the odium of smelly
 > statistics.

Of course, it will be a very simple matter to have a bot go around and
correct/update these articles, if needed (much simpler than creating the
articles in the first place). "We're" not pinching our collective nose
at anything. I think that you need a better objection than just a
general dislike for Israel.

WikiLove,
Adam Raizen


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Problem with updating pages

body:
On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 06:18, Nik wrote:
> Sorry to 'bug' you all, did anyone have a moment to look at this? Cheers,
> nik.

The one you showed looks fine, I'm mystified.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:11:23 +0200, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de>
gave utterance to the following:

> Richard Grevers wrote:
>> Which raises the question of supporting <COL> elements. I don't think
>> <COLGROUP> is particularly useful, but <COL> is, and is fairly well
>> supported.
>
> Wasn't our original intention to *simplify* table markup? ;-)
>
There are cases where <COL> can considerably simplify table markup, e.g.
<col class="foo"> rather than having to add class="foo" to every td in a
column. Also, the width="*" mechanism is an exellent means of overcoming
the vagaries when the various permitted width allocation algorithms are
allowed to run wild.

--
Richard Grevers
Between two evils always pick the one you haven't tried


list: textbook-l

from_name: KNOTT, T

body:
I agree. Although it would be nice to get new contributors, we should wait
until we get at least one book relatively finished.

A quick question from a brit ? Is K12 high school? I'm currently working on
a science textbook based around the UK science syllabus for kids aged 14-16
I wonder I some of my pages can be adapted by someone for the US and the
rest of the world.

Theresa

-----Original Message-----
From: Sanford Forte [mailto:siforte at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: 16 September 2003 21:59
To: Wikimedia textbook discussion
Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] NYT article on textbook prices

Yes. This has been a problem for years. It's like skimming cream off the top
for college textbook publishers. Also, K-12 publishers are just as greedy.
We need to get the K-12 project going. Believe me, once we create a
*quality* K-12 book, based on strict state framework standards (ideally,
California, because that would make, by far, the biggest impact), we could
revolutionize the whole textbook creation and adoption process. University
books are also ripe for reform, but they are really less of a challenge than
the K-12 sector. The K-12 publishers really have a stranglehold on the
books, the pricing, and the process. Millions of kids, parents, and
teachers - and our society - lose in this antiquated process.

Before sending anything to Slashdot, as Karl suggests, I think it would
behoove us to get something substantial underway, or have something
finished. Otherwise, it's just empty promises.

Here are some more links to an excellent series (expose) in K-12 books that
was done about 8 months ago in the San Jose Mercury News. Additionally, an
excellent piece from Forbes.
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/4743883.htm
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/living/education/4749572.htm
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/living/education/4756801.htm

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2000/1030/6612178a_print.html

Best,
Sanford

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
To: "Wikimedia textbook discussion" <textbook-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] NYT article on textbook prices

>
> --- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > This was on the front page of my local paper this
> > morning:
> >
> > "When Books Break the Bank"
> >
> >
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/16/nyregion/16BOOK.html?pagewanted=all&positi
on=
> >
> > An article about outrageous textbook prices and the
> > things
> > that students are doing to avoid paying them. (No
> > mention
> > of our site unfortunately).
> >
> > I saw old NYT articles on Sept 11 archived on the
> > main
> > wikipedia .. could we do that with this one, put the
> > text
> > on Wikibooks ?
>
> I'm sorry to say this, but no Wikibooks book is
> anywhere near usable quality, especially in a college
> environment.
> LDan
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l

_______________________________________________
Textbook-l mailing list
Textbook-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] including email addresses in replies

body:
Please, when you reply to an email on this list, please
eliminate the "from" email address from the text before you
send it. All of these emails are posted online and little
robotic spiders crawl thru the pages looking very
specifically for emial addresses to use for spam. After a
while of this you start getting more and more and more
spam. Up to now my spam leven with my yahoo email has been
very low. Even tho the archiving software does the service
of slightly altering the format of the email a spider can
probably change it back and harvest it the same.

Am I wrong about this ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Table markup

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 14:48, Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
>
>>Whoops, sorry again. The page is on test wikipedia:
>>http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript_table_security_hole
>
>
> Oh, in Magnus's magic table code. Sigh...
>
> {| onMouseOver="alert('hey');" foo 15
> |[[Main Page]]
> |}

OK, I hacked a little filter that will remove all parameters from table,
td, and th that
* start with "on" (no JavaScript)
* have no value and are not "nowrap" ("foo" and "15" above)

It is quick'n'dirty, though. Perhaps we should use some code from
removeHTMLtags instead?

Magnus


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bug in subpage editing

body:
Andre-
> I noted a bug in the editing of subpages: For deciding which part of the
> page is part 1, part 2, part 3 etcetera, <h2> headers within <nowiki> tags
> are counted as well. On pages where this occurs (for example
> [[nl:Wikipedia:Te_verwijderen_pagina's]]) one therefore gets another part in
> one's subpage-edit page than one intended.

Yes, this is a known bug and in my todo list.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

references:
<000301c37c3b$7b2b0f00$ed608418@xm01ez>
	<3F66E761.40200@web.de>	<oprvlc02x5zs1r4a@localhost>
	<3F66FDEB.60100@web.de> <oprvlz4tsxzs1r4a@localhost>

body:
Richard Grevers wrote:

> There are cases where <COL> can considerably simplify table markup, e.g.
> <col class="foo"> rather than having to add class="foo" to every td in a
> column. Also, the width="*" mechanism is an exellent means of overcoming
> the vagaries when the various permitted width allocation algorithms are
> allowed to run wild.

With article numers closing on 160000 and a total of ~300000 pages,
there's *not a single one* with "<col " in the text.

Frankly, I'm not willing to go through a complete rewrite of the table
markup implementation to support a feature that is not even used.

Magnus


from_name: Geoff Burling

body:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, Rick wrote:

> Is it necessary to have this discussion on the mailing list?
>
Let the record show that I, for the first time, am in agreement
with Rick.

Adam Raizen has at least acknowledged my concerns about his
work, which provide at least an attempt towards NPOV. Steve is
is confusing this with his own POV -- which should be taken
to the appropriate Talk: page.

Geoff


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bug in subpage editing

body:
I noted a bug in the editing of subpages: For deciding which part of the
page is part 1, part 2, part 3 etcetera, <h2> headers within <nowiki> tags
are counted as well. On pages where this occurs (for example
[[nl:Wikipedia:Te_verwijderen_pagina's]]) one therefore gets another part in
one's subpage-edit page than one intended.

Andre Engels


from_name: Nick Reinking

subject: [Wikitech-l] Memory leak in apache on pliny?

body:
On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 07:30:44PM +0200, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
> >For the last few minutes pliny's been fairly stable with ~1gig used in
> >cache, a handful of free megabytes, and 600some megs of rarely used stuff
> >in swap (so another ~1 gig in active use in memory, about 2/3 of that
> >mysql). But a few minutes ago things looked a little different: over 900
> >megs in swap and only ~450megs used as cache. Restarting apache took 300
> >megs out of swap and *800 megs* out of live used memory... which promptly
> >filled up again over the next 30 seconds. Another apache restart seems to
> >have stopped this for the moment.
> >
> >Bleeeh!
> >
> >'vmstat 5' output below for the un-faint of heart.
> >
> >-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> >
> >   procs                      memory    swap          io     system
> >   cpu
> > r  b  w   swpd   free   buff  cache  si  so    bi    bo   in    cs  us
> > sy  id
> > 1 106  0 921784  38364  39380 457280   0   5     2     6    5     6   4
> > 5   1
> >(restart apache)
> > 0  1  0 634872 828380  39440 458084 2235   0  2378   149  510  3824  18
> > 11  71
> > 9  6  2 634872 740448  39632 461828  26   0   678  1428  488 13515   7
> > 10  84
> > 0  1  0 634872 341440  39840 469076 314   0  1261  2735  610   939  27
> > 19  54
> > 0  2  1 634872 274636  39876 470784   4   0   347   976  418   279   4
> > 3  92
> > 0  1  0 634872 260044  39916 477068   0   0  1259   309  525   671   3
> > 3  94
> > 0  1  3 634872 219960  39928 478464   0   0   279  1163  388   213   3
> > 2  95
> > 0  1  0 634872 204396  39960 481456   0   0   598   293  415 62520   2
> > 28  70
> > 0  3  2 634872 195996  39972 482492   0   0   206   812  375   190   2
> > 1  97
> > 0  4  0 634812 187508  40020 490664  74   0  1178   289  527   841   9
> > 2  89
> > 1  4  0 633756 180752  40152 493572  53   0   478   853  457 127318  14
> > 61  25
> > 6  5  0 629692 139076  40640 509744 349   0  3465   329 1107  3293  75
> > 21   4
> > 2  6  0 629692 119340  40840 523208 138   0  2805   494  916 173222  22
> > 16  62
> > 0  3  0 629692 110504  41028 532872 217   0  2103   413  843  1531  44
> > 5  51
> > 3  2  1 629692  98896  41216 546324 324   0  3010   300  896  1509  22
> > 5  74
> > 3  6  1 629692  80016  41416 562836 317   0  3557   315  870  1386  38
> > 4  58
> > 4  0  0 629692  78516  41600 567300 109   0  1004   460  790  8307  47
> > 5  47
> > 0  0  3 629692  73044  41796 572444  14   0  1036   241  748   861  26
> > 6  69
> > 4 26  1 629692  62740  42004 581896  64   0  1967  1167 1179  2977  10
> > 4  87
> > 5  2  0 629692  37696  42484 595676 199   0  2962   332 1147 13259  44
> > 10  46
> > 0  1  0 629692  23972  43056 603800 310   0  2004   404  897  1177  40
> > 6  54
> > 0  1  0 629692  20224  43172 610392 880   0  2188   164  695  1215  22
> > 4  75
> > 3  1  0 629692  10460  43296 617960 783   0  3576   239  923  1557  29
> > 7  64
> > 0  2  0 629692  10480  43400 614812 638   0  2847   334  833  1676  28
> > 5  67
> > 0  4  1 629692  10432  43360 609576 663   0  1661   245  795  1275  22
> > 6  72
> > 0  1  0 629684  10720  43396 608460 686   0  2368   262  817  1217  15
> > 4  81
> > 1  2  1 629684  12776  43472 607448 529   0  2044   470  771   998  13
> > 43  44
> > 0  6  1 629684  10564  43520 609580   3   0  1906   796  923   845   6
> > 49  45
> > 2  1  0 629692  10568  43580 609564  24   0  1824   637  852   811   6
> > 45  49
> >13 10  3 629692  10528  43748 609220  53   0  1970   615  888 45339  26
> >41  33
> > 2  3  1 629692   9664  43816 605384 245  14  2470   390 1063  1648  60
> > 23  17
> > 2  0  0 629692  10528  43884 599660 318  14  1487   375  788 17431  32
> > 12  56
> > 3  1  0 629692  10564  43952 597192 616   9  1702   121  661   896   5
> > 51  44
> > 0  2  0 629692  10520  44092 594792 478   6  2347   201  790  1235  20
> > 36  45
> > 8  3  1 629692  10536  44244 597940 291  18  2335   554  906  1315  16
> > 21  63
> > 1  1  0 629692  10400  44268 595200 690   0  1973   178  737  1283  20
> > 49  31
> > 0  6  1 629692  10496  44132 594948 255   0  1642   678  856  1019  12
> > 29  59
> >   procs                      memory    swap          io     system
> >   cpu
> > r  b  w   swpd   free   buff  cache  si  so    bi    bo   in    cs  us
> > sy  id
> > 2  1  1 629692  10156  43728 595748  52   2  2008   565  925  1229  29
> > 7  63
> > 0  4  1 629692  13192  43916 593992  93   0  1143   903  738 19192  38
> > 11  51
> >(restart apache again)
> > 0  8  1 627468 675672  43952 592892  32   0  1141   747  814 55002   9
> > 28  64
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikitech-l mailing list
> >Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
> Some of the number of 'context switch' seems really strange: two of the
> entries are 173222 and 127318 !!!
> others are at 45000 or 20000 while the 'normal' values are more in the
> 1200-2000 range.
>
> Have you an idea for this ?
>
> -- Looxix

I'm curious as to the beta-ness of mod_throttle on Apache 2.0.  Apache
2.0 really isn't much faster than 1.3 (on UNIX systems with fast context
switching, such as Linux), if at all.  Futhermore, the threading model
seen in 2.0 has resulted in a lot of modules behaving strangely (because
they haven't had adequate debugging time, most likely).  If I had to
make a guess, that's what I would say is causing the current problems.

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


body:
On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 05:39:40PM +0000, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
> > I'm curious as to the beta-ness of mod_throttle on Apache 2.0.  Apache
> > 2.0 really isn't much faster than 1.3 (on UNIX systems with fast context
> > switching, such as Linux), if at all.  Futhermore, the threading model
> > seen in 2.0 has resulted in a lot of modules behaving strangely (because
> > they haven't had adequate debugging time, most likely).  If I had to
> > make a guess, that's what I would say is causing the current problems.
>
> Well, we're running apache 1.3.28, and mod_throttle isn't on pliny.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Well, in that case, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.  :P

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

body:
> > If we're just using the statistics, and not the
> original wording, it
> > should be fine, at least in the US, where courts
> have ruled that mere
> > factual information is not protected by copyright
> (even if the original
> > publisher went to a lot of trouble to collect it).
> >
> > -Mark
>
> This is what I figured also, though IANAL.
>
> --Adam Raizen

But we should still respect the moral rights and name
our sources, still. They're giving us all of this
useful information, so the least we could do is
respect their request to be named as the source.
LDan

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from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
Magnus wrote:
> OK, so is there an example for
> * a row with several cells (say, more than 2)
> * that has some properties in common (e.g., background)
> * which can't be defined in the
 / {| statement
> * in a table that is not one of a default type (countries, elements
etc.)

Magnus, I do agree that most
 options are redundant.

However I did find some that may qualify (there will be more but this is
what I found in half an hour). Most address alignment.
(
 has a different purpose)

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_game

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/computation

is this a standard table?
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Russia

is this a standard table?
(the elements table you mentioned is probably the Hydrogen etc version)
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronegativity

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_LR_parser

only 2 columns but very many rows
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_timeline

----

The option most used for table cells by far is align=...
What do you think? Would a wiki shortcut for this be useful?
If so, some suggestions for syntax,
shown in this order: left,right,center.
(align=left for completeness sake, left is default)

|<
|>
|^

or
|[
|]
|^

or

|l)
|r)
|c)

The last one might easily be extended to valign:
|t)
|b)
|m)

So
|ct) would expand to

Regards, Erik Zachte


body:
On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 05:49:50PM +0000, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
> > Well, in that case, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.  :P
>
> Wild speculation is welcome, particularly with falsifiable hypotheses. :)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Well, in that case, I'd just chalk it up to Linux 2.4 performing badly
under very intense loads like that.

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


body:
--- Adam Raizen <araizen at newmail.net> wrote:
> Okay, you're obviously not going to like anything
> else I have to say, so
> I'm done. If anyone else has any objections, please
> bring them up.
>
> I really find it incredible that you're objecting. A
> lot of things have
> been said against the government of Israel, but I
> haven't heard anyone
> questioning the statistics it gathers for its own
> bureaucratic purposes
> on its own citizens (these data do not include any
> information on
> Palestinians in the territories). How might the
> statistics be biased
> exactly? Too many or too few Jews? Too large a
> population, or too small?
> What would be the purpose of that? (Don't answer,
> it's a rhetorical
> question. I'm not going to debate this.)
>
> -- Adam Raizen

I can kinda see Steve's point, but I don't agree with
it. I wouldn't, under any circumstances, accept data
from Congo under any circumstances. But Congo has
active massacres on its citizens, and on all measures
is worse than Israel. I can refute any specific
argument against Israel, just email me offlist, Steve.
LDan

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subject: [Textbook-l] NYT article on textbook prices

body:
--- Sanford Forte <siforte at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> btw, my bad...go here
>
http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_History_Project
> for a look at the
> first K-12 textbook project to just get underway -
> well done! A great start,
> and congratulations to all for getting to this
> initial stage. Jimbo was
> right, "ask Wikipedia, and ye shall receive"
>
> Sanford

Nothing has happened on that project! We just have
some page templates.
LDan

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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Three-fifths compromise (was: Bot for generating
	articles on cities in Israel)

body:
--- Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> > Slaves (of any race) were counted as 3/5 of a free
> preson,
> > not 2/3, for the number of seats in the House of
> Representatives.
> > The seats of the Electoral College are the total
> seats in
> > Congress - that is, 2 (senators) + the number of
> representatives.
> > So, yes, the 3/5 did effect electoral college
> representation,
> > but not directly.
>
> And of course it was the North that insisted that
> slaves were less
> than a person.  The slaveholders would have been
> very happy to have
> them counted as full persons for purposes of
> representation, as long
> they remained property.  It was the Northern states
> that insisted on
> reducing the South's number of Congressmen.

I'm sorry about these inaccuracies, but how is this
relevant?
LDan

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from_name: cprompt

body:
On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 14:32, Adam Raizen wrote:

> I really find it incredible that you're objecting. A lot of things have
> been said against the government of Israel, but I haven't heard anyone
> questioning the statistics it gathers for its own bureaucratic purposes
> on its own citizens (these data do not include any information on
> Palestinians in the territories). How might the statistics be biased
> exactly? Too many or too few Jews? Too large a population, or too small?
> What would be the purpose of that? (Don't answer, it's a rhetorical
> question. I'm not going to debate this.)
>

As long as you cite the source, I have no objections. I don't think
there's anything wrong with citing statistics collected by a government.
Our citation of the comparable U.S. sources hasn't drawn this much fire.


from_name: Sean Barrett

in_reply_to:
<20030917202746.54970.qmail@web41804.mail.yahoo.com> (message
	from Daniel Ehrenberg on Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT))

body:
> ...census procedures regarding slaves in the early US snipped...
>
> I'm sorry about these inaccuracies, but how is this
> relevant?

Relevant to what?


from_name: Sanford Forte

body:
It's a start! ;)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
To: "Wikimedia textbook discussion" <textbook-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] NYT article on textbook prices

> --- Sanford Forte <siforte at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > btw, my bad...go here
> >
> http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_History_Project
> > for a look at the
> > first K-12 textbook project to just get underway -
> > well done! A great start,
> > and congratulations to all for getting to this
> > initial stage. Jimbo was
> > right, "ask Wikipedia, and ye shall receive"
> >
> > Sanford
>
> Nothing has happened on that project! We just have
> some page templates.
> LDan
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


from_name: Steve Vertigum

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Not with a Bot (Izrae

body:
Why dont you email Chomsky Daniel. Im not an expert. Read that link on the email too. I think you two would hit it off--dont axe me why.

We agree then that there are standards which would cause us to void some statistics-- we can refuse to be ignorant and admit that statistics are not unpolitical-- that we not take them at face value.  We can agree to use the .il statistics, provided we violate their "moral" copyright-- And AS I SAID THREE times: Not with a bot. A bot represents a privelidged means of access to the Wikipedia.

l Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Adam Raizen wrote:
> Okay, you're obviously not going to like anything
> else I have to say, so
> I'm done. If anyone else has any objections, please
> bring them up.
>
> I really find it incredible that you're objecting. A
> lot of things have
> been said against the government of Israel, but I
> haven't heard anyone
> questioning the statistics it gathers for its own
> bureaucratic purposes
> on its own citizens (these data do not include any
> information on
> Palestinians in the territories). How might the
> statistics be biased
> exactly? Too many or too few Jews? Too large a
> population, or too small?
> What would be the purpose of that? (Don't answer,
> it's a rhetorical
> question. I'm not going to debate this.)
>
> -- Adam Raizen

I can kinda see Steve's point, but I don't agree with
it. I wouldn't, under any circumstances, accept data
from Congo under any circumstances. But Congo has
active massacres on its citizens, and on all measures
is worse than Israel. I can refute any specific
argument against Israel, just email me offlist, Steve.
LDan

__________________________________
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---------------------------------
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Not with a Bot (Israel) resent--hit enter button
	early

body:
Why dont you email Chomsky Daniel. Im not an expert. Read that link on the email too. I think you two would hit it off--dont axe me why.

We can agree then that 1. there are standards which would cause us to void some statistics-- we can refuse to be ignorant and 2. admit that statistics are not unpolitical-- that we not simply take them at face value.  We can agree that 3. these statistics are of questionable statistical value since they deal with ethnic divisions which are based on dubious ethnic distinctions.

We can also agree to 4. use the .il statistics anyway provided we violate their "moral" copyright-- And AS I SAID THREE times: **Not with a bot.  A bot's use represents a privelidged means of access to the Wikipedia. Such a privelige must not be given to POV numbers. They are not statistics---the science behind them is poor. They are merely numbers.

To use such numbers would require a disclaimer that essentially says "these are not statistics--they are politicized numbers."

~S~

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from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bug in subpage editing

body:
Andre Engels wrote:
> I noted a bug in the editing of subpages: For deciding which part of the
> page is part 1, part 2, part 3 etcetera, <h2> headers within <nowiki> tags
> are counted as well. On pages where this occurs (for example
> [[nl:Wikipedia:Te_verwijderen_pagina's]]) one therefore gets another part in
> one's subpage-edit page than one intended.
>
> Andre Engels
>

It can be that this one is the same as :
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&atid=411192&aid=802791&group_id=34373


body:
> This is typical and should be a comfortable level. Slowness on the wikis
> from pliny right now is probably due to either Apache problems or database
> locking issues. I'm open to suggestions.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Get more, bigger hardware, and put the databases and web servers on
different machines.  Or did you mean constructive suggestions?

Well, there are a lot of options out there:

1) Try PostgreSQL
2) Seperate Web Server & Database
3) Try switching to a new OS that handles better under excessive load
   (FBSD?)
4) Try a 2.5 kernel? (ugh?)
5) Get faster hardware

The problem, really, is that strange things happen under load that
heavy.  When it gets to that point, it becomes very difficult to
pinpoint the bottlenecks.  It certainly isn't helpful that the database
and web server are probably causing cyclical problems between each
other.  Is there a reason why we can't put all the web servers on one
machine, and the database on the other?  Is the CPU strain from the web
servers on larousse too much for pliny sans database?  Or is the memory
strain from the database on pliny too much for larousse sans web server?

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


from_name: Nik

body:
Sorry to 'bug' you all, did anyone have a moment to look at this? Cheers,
nik.

"Nik" <nik at lighthousestudios.org> wrote in
message news:bk479s$nl2$1 at sea.gmane.org...
> Hey Brion,
>
> Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I am using the latest stable
> release of MediaWiki available from source forge.
>
> I am not sure about the timestamps - they do look all over the place "Thu,
1
> Jan 1970 00:00:00 GMT" !!!! maybe this is the problem??
>
> I include below the full HTTP headers from one request. I an by no means
> knowlegable about how to troubleshoot these headers, so if anyone could
give
> them a quick look over, that would be much appreciated. What is annoying
is
> that I suspect that one setting somewhere on my server needs to be set,
but
> I don't know what it is.
>
> Thanks again to everyone for their help, I realise we may be drifting from
a
> Wiki debug to a server debug... any more help is much appreciated.
>
> Cheers, Nik
>
> ===================================
> http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page
>
> GET /wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page HTTP/1.1
> Host: 10.0.0.2
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
> Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
> Accept:
>
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=
> 0.8,video/x-mng,image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,*/*;q=0.1
> Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
> Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
> Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
> Keep-Alive: 300
> Connection: keep-alive
> Referer: http://10.0.0.2/
>
> HTTP/1.x 200 OK
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:23 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
> Accept-Ranges: bytes
> X-Powered-By: PHP/4.2.2
> Set-Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b; path=/
> Cache-Control: private, must-revalidate, max-age=0
> Last-Modified: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:30:24 GMT
> Expires: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
> Content-Language: en
> Transfer-Encoding: chunked
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://10.0.0.2/favicon.ico
>
> GET /favicon.ico HTTP/1.1
> Host: 10.0.0.2
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
> Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
> Accept: image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,*/*;q=0.1
> Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
> Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
> Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
> Keep-Alive: 300
> Connection: keep-alive
> Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b
>
> HTTP/1.x 404 Not Found
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:24 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
> Content-Length: 313
> Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=100
> Connection: Keep-Alive
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://10.0.0.2/wiki/style/wikistandard.css
>
> GET /wiki/style/wikistandard.css HTTP/1.1
> Host: 10.0.0.2
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
> Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
> Accept: text/css,*/*;q=0.1
> Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
> Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
> Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
> Keep-Alive: 300
> Connection: keep-alive
> Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page
> Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b
>
> HTTP/1.x 200 OK
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:24 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
> Last-Modified: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:57:43 GMT
> Etag: "c034-4aa-1100efc0"
> Accept-Ranges: bytes
> Content-Length: 1194
> Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=99
> Connection: Keep-Alive
> Content-Type: text/css
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://10.0.0.2/wiki/style/wikibits.js
>
> GET /wiki/style/wikibits.js HTTP/1.1
> Host: 10.0.0.2
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
> Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
> Accept: */*
> Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
> Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
> Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
> Keep-Alive: 300
> Connection: keep-alive
> Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page
> Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b
>
> HTTP/1.x 200 OK
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:24 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
> Last-Modified: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:57:43 GMT
> Etag: "c032-b5f-1100efc0"
> Accept-Ranges: bytes
> Content-Length: 2911
> Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=98
> Connection: Keep-Alive
> Content-Type: application/x-javascript
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://10.0.0.2/wiki/upload/wiki.png
>
> GET /wiki/upload/wiki.png HTTP/1.1
> Host: 10.0.0.2
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5a)
> Gecko/20030728 Mozilla Firebird/0.6.1
> Accept: image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,*/*;q=0.1
> Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
> Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
> Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
> Keep-Alive: 300
> Connection: keep-alive
> Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page
> Cookie: PHPSESSID=047c820390faaeb21986c82a1d32436b
>
> HTTP/1.x 200 OK
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:04:24 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
> Last-Modified: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:03:49 GMT
> Etag: "c035-1e7-503e0340"
> Accept-Ranges: bytes
> Content-Length: 487
> Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=97
> Connection: Keep-Alive
> Content-Type: image/png
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ==========================================
>
> "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com> wrote in
> message
news:1063385267.13178.44.camel at frank.vibber.org...
> > On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 03:18, Nik wrote:
> > > Cheers Tim, here is an extract from the logfile that is the section
> where I
> > > did the actions you asked. I also have attached the full file.
> > [snip]
> >
> > Here's a quick overview of how it's supposed to work:
> > * Browser requests to view the page. Server sees this is a first
> > request, renders the page, and sends the current timestamp with it along
> > with instructions that the browser *must* double-check with the server
> > every time it views that page.
> > * Browser requests edit page.
> > * Browser posts the submission. Server updates the page in the database
> > and tells the browser to request the page for viewing again.
> > * Browser requests to view the page; this time it sends along the
> > timestamp it had previously received in an If-Modified-Since header. The
> > server compares this timestamp with the current timestamp of the page,
> > and since the page is newer it will render and send the page anew.
> >
> > Your log is consistently missing that last request, so the server never
> > even has a chance to send out the updated page. For some reason the
> > browser isn't asking for it.
> >
> > Can you confirm that the timestamps in the log are correct? (It's
> > _supposed_ to consistently use GMT, but if your server is set on local
> > time and something slips through, some things could be an hour off.) I
> > don't see any obvious inconsistencies, though, and the expiration time
> > is hardcoded to January 2001 so it shouldn't matter...
> >
> > Which version of the software are you using? Did you get it from CVS
> > (when?) or a tarball (which?) Try getting the stable branch from cvs:
> >
>
"cvs -d:pserver:anonymous at cvs.sourceforge.net:
> /cvsroot/wikipedia -r
> > stable co phase" or some such incomprehensible command.
> >
> > I've sometimes had trouble with headers being overridden or not quite
> > coming out right. If you've got a packet sniffer you can use to check
> > what's actually on the wire between the server and the client, that
> > might be a help; it's possible the Expires and/or Cache-Control headers
> > aren't being set properly. You might try Ethereal (www.ethereal.com)
> > which has a handy-dandy session reconstruction view, good for looking at
> > your HTTP steams; also try the current Mozilla Firebird browser and
> > install the 'Live HTTP headers' extension:
> > http://texturizer.net/firebird/extensions.html#Live%20HTTP%20Headers
> >
> > (though of course Firebird might differ in its behavior; a packet
> > sniffer can check up on any browser.)
> >
> > As a last-ditch, of course, you can disable client-side caching by
> > dropping "$wgCachePages = false;" into your LocalSettings. This _should_
> > force browsers to re-request pages always instead of caching. Well,
> > hopefully. :)
> >
> > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Table markup

body:
Erik Zachte wrote:

> Magnus, I do agree that most <tr..> options are redundant.
>
> However I did find some that may qualify (there will be more but this is
> what I found in half an hour). Most address alignment.
> (<table align=..> has a different purpose)

OK, I'm convinced! :-)

TR will be implemented within the hour, like this:
|- align=top

I will also integrate <caption> better, and change it to '|+' !

> The option most used for table cells by far is align=...
> What do you think? Would a wiki shortcut for this be useful?
> If so, some suggestions for syntax,
> shown in this order: left,right,center.
> (align=left for completeness sake, left is default)

IMHO we shouldn't mess with the attributes at all. Too much wiki markup
might turn out to be more confusing then HTML.

Magnus


body:
--- Steve Vertigum <utilitymuffinresearch2 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Why dont you email Chomsky Daniel. Im not an expert.
> Read that link on the email too. I think you two
> would hit it off--dont axe me why.
>
I'm sorry, I missed that link.

I've read some of Chomsky's works, linguistic and
political, and I still find it surprising that so many
liberals are anti-Israel. I'm sorry, anti-apartheid,
whatever you want to call it.
>
> We can agree then that 1. there are standards which
> would cause us to void some statistics-- we can
> refuse to be ignorant and 2. admit that statistics
> are not unpolitical-- that we not simply take them
> at face value.  We can agree that 3. these
> statistics are of questionable statistical value
> since they deal with ethnic divisions which are
> based on dubious ethnic distinctions.
>
> We can also agree to 4. use the .il statistics
> anyway provided we violate their "moral" copyright--
> And AS I SAID THREE times: **Not with a bot.  A
> bot's use represents a privelidged means of access
> to the Wikipedia. Such a privelige must not be given
> to POV numbers. They are not statistics---the
> science behind them is poor. They are merely
> numbers.
>
> To use such numbers would require a disclaimer that
> essentially says "these are not statistics--they are
> politicized numbers."
>
> ~S~

I agree with you on the first point, but that's it.
See [[Begging the question#Circular Arguments]]. You
are proving your premise with itself. Both in this
email, where you said "I think we can assume..." (we
cant) and proved what you thought we could assume, and
before, saying that you're not anti-Israel, just
anti-apartheid (who isn't? But israel isn't
apartheid).

And of course these numbers are collected for
political and/or burocratic purposes, such as creating
budget projections and accurately representing
districts. Why else would they collect them.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


body:
> Relevant to what?

Wikipedia and the israel issue.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Steve Vertigum wrote:

>Why dont you email Chomsky Daniel. Im not an expert. Read that link on the email too. I think you two would hit it off--dont axe me why.
>
>
Chomsky is notorious for his advocacy; he is by no stretch of the
imagination
a trustworthy neutral authority.

>
>We can agree then that 1. there are standards which would cause us to void some statistics-- we can refuse to be ignorant and 2. admit that statistics are not unpolitical-- that we not simply take them at face value.  We can agree that 3. these statistics are of questionable statistical value since they deal with ethnic divisions which are based on dubious ethnic distinctions.
>
>We can also agree to 4. use the .il statistics anyway provided we violate their "moral" copyright-- And AS I SAID THREE times: **Not with a bot.  A bot's use represents a privelidged means of access to the Wikipedia. Such a privelige must not be given to POV numbers. They are not statistics---the science behind them is poor. They are merely numbers.
>
"In your opinion." A POV claim that "Israel is an apartheid state" does not
constitute evidence that any numbers have been falsified.

Stan


subject: [Wikitech-l] Copyright information gathering on upload page

body:
As per request, I have patched SpecialUpload.php (unstable branch) to
request copyright status and source upon upload (in place at the test site).

This requires
  $wgUseCopyrightUpload = true ;
in LocalSettings.php

Also, changes to wfRecordUpload in GlobalFunctions.php were necessary,
and two lines in Language.php.

Should be in the CVS now.

Magnus


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 03:48:42PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:
> As per request, I have patched SpecialUpload.php (unstable branch) to
> request copyright status and source upon upload (in place at the test site).
>
> This requires
>  $wgUseCopyrightUpload = true ;
> in LocalSettings.php
>
> Also, changes to wfRecordUpload in GlobalFunctions.php were necessary,
> and two lines in Language.php.
>
> Should be in the CVS now.

It's broken when image is > 100kB (and btw. this limit is set much too low,
250kB or something would be much better)


from_name: Dante Alighieri

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please, please, PLEASE shut up

body:
At 02:44 PM 9/17/2003, you all wrote:
 >WAY TOO MUCH

OK, please stop. I'm getting more emails about a bot to generate Israel
articles (and it's not even a particularly descriptive subject heading
anymore) than I am ads for Viagra. That's a bad sign. PLEASE take this to
the 'pedia on some obscure talk page where the rest of us don't have to be
bothered by it?

-----
Dante Alighieri
dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321


from_name: Adam Raizen

body:
Steve Vertigum wrote:
> --- Adam Raizen <araizen at newmail.net> wrote:
>
>>Steve Vertigum wrote:
>
>
>>The statistics already exist; I don't have the means
>>to do my own poll.
>
>
> Huh?
>
>
>>Now it's just a question of whether to add them to
>>Wikipedia, and if so,
>>in what form and with what explanation.
>
>
> Add what -- the new statistics that "already exist"
> but you cant find, or the backup ones from a
> controversial POV source?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've only had one set of
statistics since the beginning, and I've never said anything about not
being able to find some statistics. I downloaded the spreadsheet from
http://gis.cbs.gov.il/Website/Localities2001/Rashuyot_htm/profilExcel2001.xls
from the website of Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, which
contains data on the local authorities in Israel from the end of 2001.
 From
http://gis.cbs.gov.il/Website/Localities2001/Rashuyot_htm/hakdama-CBS-h_IE.htm:
"This publication is a joint venture between the Central Bureau of
Statistics and the Interior Ministry. In the publication there are
physical data (population, education and welfare, infrastructure, etc.)
and financial data (execution of the budget) concerning the local
authorities in Israel for the year 2001."

>>So far,
>>you're the only one to
>>object,
>
>
> No Im not. I came into this thread after a couple
> people raised questions.

Some people have raised questions, but so far you're the only one to
object to using the statistics at all under any circumstances.

>>and not on any specific reason to distrust
>>the statistics, but
>>just on a general distrust of Israel. For the nth
>>time, this will be
>>explained in detail in an article linked to from the
>>bot's articles.
>
>
> This isnt good enough--you cant simply add statistics
> from Hamas and stipulate these with a buried link to
> an article which explains that "these stats may not be
> NPOV"

Actually, I expect that stats from Hamas would be acceptible, if Hamas
collects statistics, if they're attributed on the page itself (as these
will be), and with a link to additional explanation in a prominent place
(as these will have). Whatever gave you the idea that the link would be
"buried".

>>>Ah. Such effortless effort should be noted for its
>>>notability.
>>
>>What exactly are you objecting to?
>
>
> The use of a bot to add Israeli government statistics,
> which we proved a few letters ago was not NPOV, and
> also was an apartheid state, which among decent
> thoughful people tends to raise a flag or two.

So you object to adding links to the home pages of the local authorities
in question (since that what you were responding to)?

>>I'm not avoiding the issue. I've posted explanations
>>of the demographic
>>categories in a couple of different messages, and
>>I'll expand upon that
>>in the article which will be linked to from all the
>>bot-generated
>>articles. If you can't find the explanations, I'll
>>collect them and
>>repost them. If you have any specific objections,
>>I'd like to hear them.
>>If you have any specific questions that I haven't
>>answered, ask away.
>
>
> Im not the kind of guy to get sidetracked with
> specifics-- I am the kind to state some obvious
> things--that NPOV would be violated if we added
> POV-based data en masse.
> Add it by hand if you want-- let each stand up to
> scrutiny.
> As I understand it, in Israel-- even the names of
> towns and cities is a often a question of POV.
>
>
>>Of course, it will be a very simple matter to have a
>>bot go around and
>>correct/update these articles, if needed (much
>>simpler than creating the
>>articles in the first place).
>
>
> I love how you say "we can take care of it easy and
> simple"--just sign on the line--- You sound like a
> politician, young man.
>
>  "We're" not pinching
>
>>our collective nose
>>at anything. I think that you need a better
>>objection than just a
>>general dislike for Israel.
>
>
> Its not a "general dislike" --(dont start that
> pottytalk with me--or at least use LD's <rant> tags)--
> its an nose for the smell of POV disguised as a field
> of "statistics", boosted en mass, up the rear end of
> the WP.  The WP does'nt necessarily object to this
> course of entry, provided the proper prophylactic
> measures have been secured. (We dont want to catch any
> POV in other words) You could might as well name it
> the POV-BOT,  since were all friends here.
>
> WikiLove be upon you and your progeny,
> ~S~

Okay, you're obviously not going to like anything else I have to say, so
I'm done. If anyone else has any objections, please bring them up.

I really find it incredible that you're objecting. A lot of things have
been said against the government of Israel, but I haven't heard anyone
questioning the statistics it gathers for its own bureaucratic purposes
on its own citizens (these data do not include any information on
Palestinians in the territories). How might the statistics be biased
exactly? Too many or too few Jews? Too large a population, or too small?
What would be the purpose of that? (Don't answer, it's a rhetorical
question. I'm not going to debate this.)

-- Adam Raizen


body:
Delirium wrote:
> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>> I've looked at the site and found this in the copyright notice:
>>
>>    User must respect the "moral rights" of the CBS and the State of
>>    Israel in the copyrighted material. Therefore, when quoting from
>>    the copyrighted material, User must attribute the source to the
>>    Central Bureau of Statistics of the State of Israel. In addition,
>>    User may not alter, modify or in any other fashion change the
>>    copyrighted material, and may not do any other act which might
>>    diminish the value of the copyrighted material in a manner which
>>    would cast aspersion on the State of Israel or on the CBS.
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that using this material could at least in part be a
>> violation of copyrights.. Has anyone looked into this.
>
>
> If we're just using the statistics, and not the original wording, it
> should be fine, at least in the US, where courts have ruled that mere
> factual information is not protected by copyright (even if the original
> publisher went to a lot of trouble to collect it).
>
> -Mark

This is what I figured also, though IANAL.

--Adam Raizen


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
For the last few minutes pliny's been fairly stable with ~1gig used in
cache, a handful of free megabytes, and 600some megs of rarely used stuff
in swap (so another ~1 gig in active use in memory, about 2/3 of that
mysql). But a few minutes ago things looked a little different: over 900
megs in swap and only ~450megs used as cache. Restarting apache took 300
megs out of swap and *800 megs* out of live used memory... which promptly
filled up again over the next 30 seconds. Another apache restart seems to
have stopped this for the moment.

Bleeeh!

'vmstat 5' output below for the un-faint of heart.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

   procs                      memory    swap          io     system         cpu
 r  b  w   swpd   free   buff  cache  si  so    bi    bo   in    cs  us  sy  id
 1 106  0 921784  38364  39380 457280   0   5     2     6    5     6   4   5   1
(restart apache)
 0  1  0 634872 828380  39440 458084 2235   0  2378   149  510  3824  18  11  71
 9  6  2 634872 740448  39632 461828  26   0   678  1428  488 13515   7  10  84
 0  1  0 634872 341440  39840 469076 314   0  1261  2735  610   939  27  19  54
 0  2  1 634872 274636  39876 470784   4   0   347   976  418   279   4   3  92
 0  1  0 634872 260044  39916 477068   0   0  1259   309  525   671   3   3  94
 0  1  3 634872 219960  39928 478464   0   0   279  1163  388   213   3   2  95
 0  1  0 634872 204396  39960 481456   0   0   598   293  415 62520   2  28  70
 0  3  2 634872 195996  39972 482492   0   0   206   812  375   190   2   1  97
 0  4  0 634812 187508  40020 490664  74   0  1178   289  527   841   9   2  89
 1  4  0 633756 180752  40152 493572  53   0   478   853  457 127318  14  61  25
 6  5  0 629692 139076  40640 509744 349   0  3465   329 1107  3293  75  21   4
 2  6  0 629692 119340  40840 523208 138   0  2805   494  916 173222  22  16  62
 0  3  0 629692 110504  41028 532872 217   0  2103   413  843  1531  44   5  51
 3  2  1 629692  98896  41216 546324 324   0  3010   300  896  1509  22   5  74
 3  6  1 629692  80016  41416 562836 317   0  3557   315  870  1386  38   4  58
 4  0  0 629692  78516  41600 567300 109   0  1004   460  790  8307  47   5  47
 0  0  3 629692  73044  41796 572444  14   0  1036   241  748   861  26   6  69
 4 26  1 629692  62740  42004 581896  64   0  1967  1167 1179  2977  10   4  87
 5  2  0 629692  37696  42484 595676 199   0  2962   332 1147 13259  44  10  46
 0  1  0 629692  23972  43056 603800 310   0  2004   404  897  1177  40   6  54
 0  1  0 629692  20224  43172 610392 880   0  2188   164  695  1215  22   4  75
 3  1  0 629692  10460  43296 617960 783   0  3576   239  923  1557  29   7  64
 0  2  0 629692  10480  43400 614812 638   0  2847   334  833  1676  28   5  67
 0  4  1 629692  10432  43360 609576 663   0  1661   245  795  1275  22   6  72
 0  1  0 629684  10720  43396 608460 686   0  2368   262  817  1217  15   4  81
 1  2  1 629684  12776  43472 607448 529   0  2044   470  771   998  13  43  44
 0  6  1 629684  10564  43520 609580   3   0  1906   796  923   845   6  49  45
 2  1  0 629692  10568  43580 609564  24   0  1824   637  852   811   6  45  49
13 10  3 629692  10528  43748 609220  53   0  1970   615  888 45339  26  41  33
 2  3  1 629692   9664  43816 605384 245  14  2470   390 1063  1648  60  23  17
 2  0  0 629692  10528  43884 599660 318  14  1487   375  788 17431  32  12  56
 3  1  0 629692  10564  43952 597192 616   9  1702   121  661   896   5  51  44
 0  2  0 629692  10520  44092 594792 478   6  2347   201  790  1235  20  36  45
 8  3  1 629692  10536  44244 597940 291  18  2335   554  906  1315  16  21  63
 1  1  0 629692  10400  44268 595200 690   0  1973   178  737  1283  20  49  31
 0  6  1 629692  10496  44132 594948 255   0  1642   678  856  1019  12  29  59
   procs                      memory    swap          io     system         cpu
 r  b  w   swpd   free   buff  cache  si  so    bi    bo   in    cs  us  sy  id
 2  1  1 629692  10156  43728 595748  52   2  2008   565  925  1229  29   7  63
 0  4  1 629692  13192  43916 593992  93   0  1143   903  738 19192  38  11  51
(restart apache again)
 0  8  1 627468 675672  43952 592892  32   0  1141   747  814 55002   9  28  64


body:
Anyway, for comparison here's a chunk of vmstat output from larousse.
Compared to pliny, larousse has very little idle time (the 'id' column)
and always too many processes waiting to run (the 'r' column). It also has
relatively light disk usage ('bi' and 'bo' for input and output; pliny has
a lot more input since it's reading mucho data from the database, for both
itself and larousse's web requests).

   procs                      memory      swap          io     system      cpu
 r  b  w   swpd   free   buff  cache   si   so    bi    bo   in    cs us sy id
37  0  1 159116 261032 137472 1256024    0    0     7   441  693   364 86  8  6
18  0  1 159116 260652 137472 1256072    0    0     6   303  710   317 93  7  0
22  0  1 159116 260324 137472 1256172    0    0     2   150  598   270 94  6  0
14  0  1 159116 260048 137472 1256288    0    0     2   138  583   261 92  8  0
16  0  1 159116 259432 137472 1256264    0    0     4   170  670   340 93  7  0
23  0  1 159116 258648 137472 1256400    0    0     6   143  657   314 92  8  0
 9 17  1 159116 260772 137472 1256504    0    0     2   150  675   380 94  6  0
 6  0  0 159116 259116 137472 1256344    0    0     2   224  717   377 92  8  0
18  0  1 159116 259504 137472 1256268    0    0     4   172  578   300 90 10  0
 8 72  0 159116 258900 137472 1256908    0    0    88  2026 1512   659 52  6 42
70  0  0 159116 258892 137472 1257064    0    0     2   169  643   288 71 10 19
42  0  1 159116 257544 137476 1257296    0    0    20   195  714   348 92  8  0
23  0  1 159116 256600 137480 1257540    0    0    21   181  669   345 92  8  0
11  0  1 159116 257808 137488 1257264    0    0     7   163  723   413 92  8  0
 5  0  1 159116 260772 137492 1257428    0    0    10   190  708   428 92  8  0
 9  0  0 159116 264604 137496 1257600    0    0    14   162  638   399 93  7  0
 3  0  0 159116 269448 137496 1257476    0    0     2   152  741   426 92  7  0
 9  0  0 159116 272228 137496 1257652    0    0     1   145  572   315 77 10 14
 8  0  0 159116 275328 137496 1257640    0    0     2   142  669   384 92  8  0
 4  0  0 159116 278836 137504 1257652    0    0     6   187  689   453 93  6  0
 7  0  0 159116 281592 137504 1257788    0    0     1   162  657   423 92  7  1
15  0  0 159116 285212 137504 1257704    0    0     1   131  563   338 92  8  0
16  0  1 159116 286664 137504 1257788    0    0     3   176  670   374 90 10  0
14 24  1 159116 278576 137504 1257856    0    0     3   159  664   383 94  6  0
28  0  0 159116 270172 137508 1257948    0    0    25   182  694   402 88 12  0


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Not with a Bot (Izrae

body:
This is nonsense.  The information is not from a questionable source, the material is to be presented in a meaningful matter.  Your only objection is your unreasonable hatred for the Israeli government, which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.  Unless someone has any objections other thatn Stevertigo, can we PLEASE end this and continue with discussing the merits of the BOT per se, and not the source of the material?

RickK

Steve Vertigum <utilitymuffinresearch2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Why dont you email Chomsky Daniel. Im not an expert. Read that link on the email too. I think you two would hit it off--dont axe me why.

We agree then that there are standards which would cause us to void some statistics-- we can refuse to be ignorant and admit that statistics are not unpolitical-- that we not take them at face value.  We can agree to use the .il statistics, provided we violate their "moral" copyright-- And AS I SAID THREE times: Not with a bot. A bot represents a privelidged means of access to the Wikipedia.

l Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Adam Raizen wrote:
> Okay, you're obviously not going to like anything
> else I have to say, so
> I'm done. If anyone else has any objections, please
> bring them up.
>
> I really find it incredible that you're objecting. A
> lot of things have
> been said against the government of Israel, but I
> haven't heard anyone
> questioning the statistics it gathers for its own
> bureaucratic purposes
> on its own citizens (these data do not include any
> information on
> Palestinians in the territories). How might the
> statistics be biased
> exactly? Too many or too few Jews? Too large a
> population, or too small?
> What would be the purpose of that? (Don't answer,
> it's a rhetorical
> question. I'm not going to debate this.)
! >
> -- Adam Raizen

I can kinda see Steve's point, but I don't agree with
it. I wouldn't, under any circumstances, accept data
from Congo under any circumstances. But Congo has
active massacres on its citizens, and on all measures
is worse than Israel. I can refute any specific
argument against Israel, just email me offlist, Steve.
LDan

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body:
--- Dante Alighieri <dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com>
wrote:
> At 02:44 PM 9/17/2003, you all wrote:
>  >WAY TOO MUCH
>
> OK, please stop. I'm getting more emails about a bot
> to generate Israel
> articles (and it's not even a particularly
> descriptive subject heading
> anymore) than I am ads for Viagra. That's a bad
> sign. PLEASE take this to
> the 'pedia on some obscure talk page where the rest
> of us don't have to be
> bothered by it?

I'm sorry that I've been contributing to this useless
talk. Let's use [[m:Israeli statistics]] instead of
the list.
LDan

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body:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
> I'm curious as to the beta-ness of mod_throttle on Apache 2.0.  Apache
> 2.0 really isn't much faster than 1.3 (on UNIX systems with fast context
> switching, such as Linux), if at all.  Futhermore, the threading model
> seen in 2.0 has resulted in a lot of modules behaving strangely (because
> they haven't had adequate debugging time, most likely).  If I had to
> make a guess, that's what I would say is causing the current problems.

Well, we're running apache 1.3.28, and mod_throttle isn't on pliny.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
> Well, in that case, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.  :P

Wild speculation is welcome, particularly with falsifiable hypotheses. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 09:02:09AM -0700, Karl Wick wrote:
> Please, when you reply to an email on this list, please
> eliminate the "from" email address from the text before you
> send it. All of these emails are posted online and little
> robotic spiders crawl thru the pages looking very
> specifically for emial addresses to use for spam. After a
> while of this you start getting more and more and more
> spam. Up to now my spam leven with my yahoo email has been
> very low. Even tho the archiving software does the service
> of slightly altering the format of the email a spider can
> probably change it back and harvest it the same.
>
> Am I wrong about this ?

Obscuring email adresses doesn't really work. Spammers probably
already have bots that can defeat every popular method of
obscuration, and it makes live more difficult to humans.


body:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 05:49:50PM +0000, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > Wild speculation is welcome, particularly with falsifiable hypotheses. :)
>
> Well, in that case, I'd just chalk it up to Linux 2.4 performing badly
> under very intense loads like that.

Now that I believe! Shall I install FreeBSD instead? ;)

(Serious side note: I've been running my home box on FreeBSD 5.1 for a
couple months and am generally pretty happy with it. Interactive response
under load -- large compiles for instance -- is better than on Red Hat 8 +
2.4.20 kernel, and it works with more of my hardware, such as my firewire
external hard drive which regularly crashes Linux. About the only thing
that bugs me about it is that the Linux compatibility libraries it ships
with are from an older Red Hat that's missing gtk2, and I haven't gotten
around to figuring out how to get it installed. So I've got gtk2 for
native apps, but I don't really want to try to build something like
Eclipse from source. :P

The majority of stuff I need is already in ports ready to install. Like
apt-get, but with more compiling!

I do my MediaWiki development and testing on this box, running Apache
2.0.something from ports and a self-compiled PHP with options. Partly I'm
trying to expand my horizons, and maybe catch a few errors due to platform
assumptions.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
> Brion, can you send the content of /proc/meminfo and/or free ?

Sure... On larousse:

$ cat /proc/meminfo
        total:    used:    free:  shared: buffers:  cached:
Mem:  2114674688 1966247936 148426752        0 142196736 1381969920
Swap: 1044570112 162914304 881655808
MemTotal:      2065112 kB
MemFree:        144948 kB
MemShared:           0 kB
Buffers:        138864 kB
Cached:        1311000 kB
SwapCached:      38580 kB
Active:        1395176 kB
ActiveAnon:     295164 kB
ActiveCache:   1100012 kB
Inact_dirty:     54956 kB
Inact_laundry:  259704 kB
Inact_clean:     38776 kB
Inact_target:   349720 kB
HighTotal:     1179648 kB
HighFree:        38100 kB
LowTotal:       885464 kB
LowFree:        106848 kB
SwapTotal:     1020088 kB
SwapFree:       860992 kB

$ free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:       2065112    1921088     144024          0     138868    1311376
-/+ buffers/cache:     470844    1594268
Swap:      1020088     159096     860992

On pliny:
$ cat /proc/meminfo
        total:    used:    free:  shared: buffers:  cached:
Mem:  2118565888 2084339712 34226176        0 55283712 1487036416
Swap: 2097143808 643121152 1454022656
MemTotal:      2068912 kB
MemFree:         33424 kB
MemShared:           0 kB
Buffers:         53988 kB
Cached:         975652 kB
SwapCached:     476532 kB
Active:         798256 kB
Inactive:      1158060 kB
HighTotal:     1179136 kB
HighFree:         2044 kB
LowTotal:       889776 kB
LowFree:         31380 kB
SwapTotal:     2047992 kB
SwapFree:      1419944 kB

$ free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:       2068912    2039444      29468          0      54012     976872
-/+ buffers/cache:    1008560    1060352
Swap:      2047992     628044    1419948

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Tucci

body:
This discussion is kinda ridiculous.  I haven't read
any of it until just now, when I read (or skimmed...)
all of the Israeli bot articles in sequence.  One
person is arguing that the Israeli government's
statistics are too POV to include in the Wikipedia?
Why?  It would be absolutely wonderful if there was
some totally neutral organization out there that
collected statistics on everything from how many
Mozambiquean-Israeli-Christians there are in Tel Aviv
to how many left-handed red-headed Norwegian-American
biologists believe in creationism, but no such
organization exists.  Luckily, we have adopted the
NPOV policy, which does not require such an
organization.  It only requires that potentially
sensitive facts be attributed to the proper
organization.  In this case, that organization appears
to be the Israeli census bureau.  Hence, these
potentially disputable statistics should be attributed
to the organization that collected them.

We're not talking about my brother's D+D group; the
Israeli government is an organization with a lot of
supporters, at home and abroad, who believe their
numbers.  It would be POV to not include them.

Just to let my own biases be known, I think all the
Israelis and Palestinians should be sent to some
useless corner of Mars where they can kill each other
in peace (ironic, huh?), and all their territory
converted to recycling plants or solar power cells or
desalinization plants or, hell, a giant museum
dedicated to people who think it's ever holy to kill
other people (might have to use Syria too, cuz it'd be
big).

TUF-KAT

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body:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
> Thanks, it will not help you a lot but I don't like the numbers for 'cached'
> (70% of total RAM available / 50% of non swapcached), same for 'inactive'.
> but anyway I never have liked the VM of Linux 2.4 and theese numbers are probably OK.
>
> The server seems to respond a little better now than a few hours ago.
>
> The huge iddle time is really a problem with new hardware it will be exactly the same.

The primary target of new hardware is larousse, which doesn't have much
idle time at all.

> Such a memory leak which reappear after 30 secs is also .. annoying.

Well, it hasn't come back yet, so cross them fingers...

> How is the loadavg relatively to the 'normal' ? Huge is suppose?

Larousse:
 18:58:11  up 8 days, 11:14,  1 user,  load average: 17.64, 20.19, 20.15

Sadly, this is typical for the middle of the day. :( It's much higher than
the machine can comfortably handle.

Pliny:
  6:58pm  up 38 days, 19:02,  1 user,  load average: 4.63, 4.26, 3.75

This is typical and should be a comfortable level. Slowness on the wikis
from pliny right now is probably due to either Apache problems or database
locking issues. I'm open to suggestions.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
>  Is there a reason why we can't put all the web servers on one
> machine, and the database on the other?

Larousse is too slow, it's already overloaded: too many processes waiting
on each other, no idle time. When it's upgraded, then we finish the
separation.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> For the last few minutes pliny's been fairly stable with ~1gig used in
> cache, a handful of free megabytes, and 600some megs of rarely used stuff
> in swap (so another ~1 gig in active use in memory, about 2/3 of that
> mysql). But a few minutes ago things looked a little different: over 900
> megs in swap and only ~450megs used as cache. Restarting apache took 300
> megs out of swap and *800 megs* out of live used memory... which promptly
> filled up again over the next 30 seconds. Another apache restart seems to
> have stopped this for the moment.
>
> Bleeeh!
>
> 'vmstat 5' output below for the un-faint of heart.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>    procs                      memory    swap          io     system         cpu
>  r  b  w   swpd   free   buff  cache  si  so    bi    bo   in    cs  us  sy  id
>  1 106  0 921784  38364  39380 457280   0   5     2     6    5     6   4   5   1
> (restart apache)
>  0  1  0 634872 828380  39440 458084 2235   0  2378   149  510  3824  18  11  71
>  9  6  2 634872 740448  39632 461828  26   0   678  1428  488 13515   7  10  84
>  0  1  0 634872 341440  39840 469076 314   0  1261  2735  610   939  27  19  54
>  0  2  1 634872 274636  39876 470784   4   0   347   976  418   279   4   3  92
>  0  1  0 634872 260044  39916 477068   0   0  1259   309  525   671   3   3  94
>  0  1  3 634872 219960  39928 478464   0   0   279  1163  388   213   3   2  95
>  0  1  0 634872 204396  39960 481456   0   0   598   293  415 62520   2  28  70
>  0  3  2 634872 195996  39972 482492   0   0   206   812  375   190   2   1  97
>  0  4  0 634812 187508  40020 490664  74   0  1178   289  527   841   9   2  89
>  1  4  0 633756 180752  40152 493572  53   0   478   853  457 127318  14  61  25
>  6  5  0 629692 139076  40640 509744 349   0  3465   329 1107  3293  75  21   4
>  2  6  0 629692 119340  40840 523208 138   0  2805   494  916 173222  22  16  62
>  0  3  0 629692 110504  41028 532872 217   0  2103   413  843  1531  44   5  51
>  3  2  1 629692  98896  41216 546324 324   0  3010   300  896  1509  22   5  74
>  3  6  1 629692  80016  41416 562836 317   0  3557   315  870  1386  38   4  58
>  4  0  0 629692  78516  41600 567300 109   0  1004   460  790  8307  47   5  47
>  0  0  3 629692  73044  41796 572444  14   0  1036   241  748   861  26   6  69
>  4 26  1 629692  62740  42004 581896  64   0  1967  1167 1179  2977  10   4  87
>  5  2  0 629692  37696  42484 595676 199   0  2962   332 1147 13259  44  10  46
>  0  1  0 629692  23972  43056 603800 310   0  2004   404  897  1177  40   6  54
>  0  1  0 629692  20224  43172 610392 880   0  2188   164  695  1215  22   4  75
>  3  1  0 629692  10460  43296 617960 783   0  3576   239  923  1557  29   7  64
>  0  2  0 629692  10480  43400 614812 638   0  2847   334  833  1676  28   5  67
>  0  4  1 629692  10432  43360 609576 663   0  1661   245  795  1275  22   6  72
>  0  1  0 629684  10720  43396 608460 686   0  2368   262  817  1217  15   4  81
>  1  2  1 629684  12776  43472 607448 529   0  2044   470  771   998  13  43  44
>  0  6  1 629684  10564  43520 609580   3   0  1906   796  923   845   6  49  45
>  2  1  0 629692  10568  43580 609564  24   0  1824   637  852   811   6  45  49
> 13 10  3 629692  10528  43748 609220  53   0  1970   615  888 45339  26  41  33
>  2  3  1 629692   9664  43816 605384 245  14  2470   390 1063  1648  60  23  17
>  2  0  0 629692  10528  43884 599660 318  14  1487   375  788 17431  32  12  56
>  3  1  0 629692  10564  43952 597192 616   9  1702   121  661   896   5  51  44
>  0  2  0 629692  10520  44092 594792 478   6  2347   201  790  1235  20  36  45
>  8  3  1 629692  10536  44244 597940 291  18  2335   554  906  1315  16  21  63
>  1  1  0 629692  10400  44268 595200 690   0  1973   178  737  1283  20  49  31
>  0  6  1 629692  10496  44132 594948 255   0  1642   678  856  1019  12  29  59
>    procs                      memory    swap          io     system         cpu
>  r  b  w   swpd   free   buff  cache  si  so    bi    bo   in    cs  us  sy  id
>  2  1  1 629692  10156  43728 595748  52   2  2008   565  925  1229  29   7  63
>  0  4  1 629692  13192  43916 593992  93   0  1143   903  738 19192  38  11  51
> (restart apache again)
>  0  8  1 627468 675672  43952 592892  32   0  1141   747  814 55002   9  28  64
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

Some of the number of 'context switch' seems really strange: two of the entries are 173222 and 127318 !!!
others are at 45000 or 20000 while the 'normal' values are more in the 1200-2000 range.

Have you an idea for this ?

-- Looxix


body:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
> Just to be sure, Larousse is the Web server and Pliny the machine running the DB?

Mostly. :) Larousse is the web server, but right now it's only serving the
English and test sites, because it's so overloaded we never finished
moving the others over. To complicate things, Larousse also has a
local copy of the search table for the english wiki which is not being
updated and has enough fields added to it that it doesn't join against
the main article database. This seems to help vis-a-vis keeping things
from locking.

Pliny is the database server, but it's also still serving web pages for
everything but English and test sites.

> Have you an idea about the excessive context switch in the previous 'vmstat 5' output?
> I can even hardly believe that 173000 cs is even possible and what can cause this?

I suspect that some counter overflows in extreme circumstances, but I
really don't know for sure.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Nick Reinking wrote:
>
>>Well, in that case, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.  :P
>
>
> Wild speculation is welcome, particularly with falsifiable hypotheses. :)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>

Brion, can you send the content of /proc/meminfo and/or free ?

-- Looxix


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
>
>>Brion, can you send the content of /proc/meminfo and/or free ?
>
>
> Sure... On larousse:
>
> $ cat /proc/meminfo
>         total:    used:    free:  shared: buffers:  cached:
> Mem:  2114674688 1966247936 148426752        0 142196736 1381969920
> Swap: 1044570112 162914304 881655808
> MemTotal:      2065112 kB
> MemFree:        144948 kB
> MemShared:           0 kB
> Buffers:        138864 kB
> Cached:        1311000 kB
> SwapCached:      38580 kB
> Active:        1395176 kB
> ActiveAnon:     295164 kB
> ActiveCache:   1100012 kB
> Inact_dirty:     54956 kB
> Inact_laundry:  259704 kB
> Inact_clean:     38776 kB
> Inact_target:   349720 kB
> HighTotal:     1179648 kB
> HighFree:        38100 kB
> LowTotal:       885464 kB
> LowFree:        106848 kB
> SwapTotal:     1020088 kB
> SwapFree:       860992 kB
>
> $ free
>              total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
> Mem:       2065112    1921088     144024          0     138868    1311376
> -/+ buffers/cache:     470844    1594268
> Swap:      1020088     159096     860992
>
>
> On pliny:
> $ cat /proc/meminfo
>         total:    used:    free:  shared: buffers:  cached:
> Mem:  2118565888 2084339712 34226176        0 55283712 1487036416
> Swap: 2097143808 643121152 1454022656
> MemTotal:      2068912 kB
> MemFree:         33424 kB
> MemShared:           0 kB
> Buffers:         53988 kB
> Cached:         975652 kB
> SwapCached:     476532 kB
> Active:         798256 kB
> Inactive:      1158060 kB
> HighTotal:     1179136 kB
> HighFree:         2044 kB
> LowTotal:       889776 kB
> LowFree:         31380 kB
> SwapTotal:     2047992 kB
> SwapFree:      1419944 kB
>
> $ free
>              total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
> Mem:       2068912    2039444      29468          0      54012     976872
> -/+ buffers/cache:    1008560    1060352
> Swap:      2047992     628044    1419948
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>

Thanks, it will not help you a lot but I don't like the numbers for 'cached'
(70% of total RAM available / 50% of non swapcached), same for 'inactive'.
but anyway I never have liked the VM of Linux 2.4 and theese numbers are probably OK.

The server seems to respond a little better now than a few hours ago.

The huge iddle time is really a problem with new hardware it will be exactly the same.
Such a memory leak which reappear after 30 secs is also .. annoying.

How is the loadavg relatively to the 'normal' ? Huge is suppose?

-- Looxix


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
>
>>Thanks, it will not help you a lot but I don't like the numbers for 'cached'
>>(70% of total RAM available / 50% of non swapcached), same for 'inactive'.
>>but anyway I never have liked the VM of Linux 2.4 and theese numbers are probably OK.
>>
>>The server seems to respond a little better now than a few hours ago.
>>
>>The huge iddle time is really a problem with new hardware it will be exactly the same.
>
>
> The primary target of new hardware is larousse, which doesn't have much
> idle time at all.

Just to be sure, Larousse is the Web server and Pliny the machine running the DB?

>>Such a memory leak which reappear after 30 secs is also .. annoying.
>
>
> Well, it hasn't come back yet, so cross them fingers...
>
>
>>How is the loadavg relatively to the 'normal' ? Huge is suppose?
>
>
> Larousse:
>  18:58:11  up 8 days, 11:14,  1 user,  load average: 17.64, 20.19, 20.15
>
> Sadly, this is typical for the middle of the day. :( It's much higher than
> the machine can comfortably handle.

Which explain the latency.

> Pliny:
>   6:58pm  up 38 days, 19:02,  1 user,  load average: 4.63, 4.26, 3.75
>
> This is typical and should be a comfortable level. Slowness on the wikis
> from pliny right now is probably due to either Apache problems or database
> locking issues. I'm open to suggestions.

Yes, this seems OK.

> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Alas I'm a system/kernel programmer and I don't know apache or MySQL at all,
but database locking seems in effect to fit well with the problem.
Have something changed recently that can influence this?

Have you an idea about the excessive context switch in the previous 'vmstat 5' output?
I can even hardly believe that 173000 cs is even possible and what can cause this?
This mean that a task can never use its timeslot and thus do any usefull work.
1200 - 2000 must probably be the right values?

-- Looxix


body:
Nick Reinking wrote:
>>This is typical and should be a comfortable level. Slowness on the wikis
>>from pliny right now is probably due to either Apache problems or database
>>locking issues. I'm open to suggestions.
>>
>>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> Get more, bigger hardware, and put the databases and web servers on
> different machines.  Or did you mean constructive suggestions?
>
> Well, there are a lot of options out there:

I suppose that we first need a short term solution

> 1) Try PostgreSQL

:-( need time to port the software

> 2) Seperate Web Server & Database

Is not already the case?

> 3) Try switching to a new OS that handles better under excessive load
>    (FBSD?)
:-( need time to port the software

> 4) Try a 2.5 kernel? (ugh?)
Is it possible to try this on test (it's a separate machine no?)

> 5) Get faster hardware
:-( Need time and money

>
> The problem, really, is that strange things happen under load that
> heavy.  When it gets to that point, it becomes very difficult to
> pinpoint the bottlenecks.  It certainly isn't helpful that the database
> and web server are probably causing cyclical problems between each
> other.  Is there a reason why we can't put all the web servers on one
> machine, and the database on the other?  Is the CPU strain from the web
> servers on larousse too much for pliny sans database?  Or is the memory
> strain from the database on pliny too much for larousse sans web server?
>

-- Looxix


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
>
>>Just to be sure, Larousse is the Web server and Pliny the machine running the DB?
>
>
> Mostly. :) Larousse is the web server, but right now it's only serving the
> English and test sites, because it's so overloaded we never finished
> moving the others over. To complicate things, Larousse also has a
> local copy of the search table for the english wiki which is not being
> updated and has enough fields added to it that it doesn't join against
> the main article database. This seems to help vis-a-vis keeping things
> from locking.
>
> Pliny is the database server, but it's also still serving web pages for
> everything but English and test sites.
>
>
>>Have you an idea about the excessive context switch in the previous 'vmstat 5' output?
>>I can even hardly believe that 173000 cs is even possible and what can cause this?
>
>
> I suspect that some counter overflows in extreme circumstances, but I
> really don't know for sure.

Possible but an overflow of what?
There was also some values of 45000 and 12000;
I think it was the true value and a symptom of the real problem.

But just now it run very well ...

> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-- Looxix


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Watchlist

body:
Hello,

in the hope I got it coded well, I added a few missing calls of wfMsg in
the SpecialWatchlist.php function wlCutoffLinks() and the appropriates
phrases in Language.php and LanguageDe.php.

This code is not tested, because I still not have running a proper
test-wiki, but I hope the number of errors in 3 lines is not to high.
Possibly one of our main coders can look over it.

Greetings Smurf
--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


body:
It run perfectly well for the moment!

Yoopie, I can now continue to cure my wikipediholism ...

-- Looxix


from_name: Jens Frank

body:
On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 09:20:33PM +0200, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
>
> >2) Seperate Web Server & Database
>
> Is not already the case?

No. Only english web server and test server are on a separate server.
DB and international wikipedias are on the same server. Migration
was stopped when web server started being heavy loaded.

> >4) Try a 2.5 kernel? (ugh?)
> Is it possible to try this on test (it's a separate machine no?)

See above. Test and production are the same box.

JeLuF