subject: [Foundation-l] Steward elections

body:
>> This suggests to me the following rules
>> * candidates should have shown implication in
>> international matters, so we could possibly require
>> that the candidate has sysop status on meta.

>An interlingual interest sounds like a good
>requirement, but the way
>in which you want to implement it not. I would prefer
>candidates to
>state themselves the proof/indications for
>interlingual interest, and
>have those that are insufficiently interlingual
simply >voted down.

Okay, Waerth comment and yours are probably correct. I
was wrong on this.
I like the idea of stating indications of interlingual
interest. Plus, it might be interesting to get to know
people, and show those non involved how they could get
involved.

Good suggestion.

Note : I hope this is enough to vote down those non
involved. I was not very happy with a couple of
requests I received in the past few months. Some
people from rather isolated projects (not necessarily
small), which wanted to become stewards to be able to
desysop people in their communities. I fear this a bit
I must admit.

>> * Candidates should have at least 80% support
(neutral
>> not counted)

>Also specify a minimum number of votes, so that 2 in
>favor, 0 against
>does not count as 100%.

Okay, in previous elections, I can remember that
basically there were about 20 to 40 votes for those
approved. Roughly. We are slightly bigger. What about
40 being a requirement ?

>Apart from that, it would be good to have a minimum
>and maximum number
>of people elected, so that with less than (for
>example) 5 candidates
>with over 80% the 5 with highest support get elected,
>and with more
>than (for example) 12, only the 12 with highest
>support get elected.

I think we should not pick up people with 50% just
because there is a lot of opposition for all
candidates. So, I would rather support no minimum.
I am sure it will not happen anyway.

You are correct for the maximum. I propose 10.

So that means that if more than 10 people are over 80%
with at least 40 votes overall, the 10 with higher %
are chosen.

That will make a basic total of stewards between 8 and
18. Sounds good to me.

>>Instead of the lower bar, we could also specify that
>>Angela, you, me,
>>Looxix and Mav are automatically reelected, I guess.

>Andre Engels

Hmmm, in all honesty, I think those who are stewards,
are stewards and do not need reelection. But if the
community thinks we should redo entirely the election,
fine with me. I mostly wish that we do not pretend we
are 8 when some do nothing at all from day one. It is
just not efficient :-)

Opinions ?

ant

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list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Steward elections


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Saterlandic Frisian Wikipedia

body:
The differences between West Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) and
East Frisian (spoken in Saterland) are massive.

It would be rediculous to use the same Wikipedia.

It might be different if fy: already had some content in Saterland
Frisian, but to the best of my knowledge it is entirely in Western
Frisian with the exception of one article which is bilingual in
Western Frisian and North Frisian, and bilingual I mean it has two
separate versions)

Mark

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:58 -0500, Stephen Forrest
<stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:42:52 +0100, Wouter Steenbeek
> <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further
> > details can be read at
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the
> > requests page.
>
> I believe you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterland_Frisian_language.
>
> For the purposes of ISO 639 codes, Saterland Frisian is regarded as a
> dialect of Frisian.  Can you provide a rationale for why working
> within the Frisian Wikipedia is not tenable?
>
> I seem to recall reading that there were different spelling
> conventions for the Frisian spoken in Germany and that spoken in the
> Netherlands.  I have no idea how significant these differences are.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for classical Chinese

body:
Would you like to fill us in on what you mean by this?

Mark

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:13:08 -0600, Kiss All <kissall at gmail.com> wrote:
> You are out of your mind. Period.
>
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:12:00 +0900 (JST), abc_root
> <abcd_root at yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > Dear all:
> >
> > I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or kanbun(
> > ??/???) which is the standard form of Chinese for about two thousand
> > years and was used throughout East Asia as the formal form of writing. Its
> > importance in East Asia is like that of Latin in Europe. Now that
> > Wikipedias are running or being started for many of the languages in East
> > Asia, it seems that the language which is the backbone of these languages
> > should also have a place.
> >
> > One problem that might be encountered in writing articles for kanbun
> > wikipedia is how the foreign loanwords (e.g. from English) should be
> > phonetically transcribed when there is no corresponding word in kanbun
> > itself. If they are transcribed using kanji (Chinese characters), there is
> > the question of which language should be used to read the kanji. Here I
> > suggest using an alphabet system of East Asia (e.g. Japanese kana or Korean
> > hangul, or Taiwanese chu-yin) for the transcription and also note the
> > original word in English (or any other language of origin or the roman
> > transcription if the language is not written in roman alphabet). This
> > allows kanbun users speaking different languages to know the original
> > foreign word.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Let's Celebrate Together!
> > Yahoo! JAPAN
> > http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/so2005/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
> --
> Be good....
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] stewards elections

body:
by the way, sorry for breaking all threads, but my
computer is dead, and I do not receive mails, so I do
as I can on other computers :-) sorry

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Developer_access&oldid=31732
Might be relevant for everyone to consult. This is the
page of previous elections.

------

As one of the people who has requested stewardship, I
want to comment on
some of the proposed rules:

In a message dated 3/5/2005 3:14:08 AM Eastern
Standard Time,
anthere9 at yahoo.com writes:

* it is  useless to keep in steward list an inactive
steward. Activity is show best  by activity on
"request
for permission" (log is sometimes lost). I  hence
suggest that any steward with no edits on RfP and no
mention in  the log for 6 months be listed as inactive
and with no activity for a year,  be removed.
Fully agree. I do, however, think that there should be
a cap on the number
of stewards.

Ant : yes. Something about 18.

* a  new election will be held in march (or soon)
It should be very clear who will be eligible to vote
in this new election.
What are the criteria for voting.

Ant : anyone with an account on a project. We might
wish to add a requirement of an account at least one
month old with 50 edits.

*  candidates should have shown implication in
international matters, so we  could possibly require
that the candidate has sysop status on  meta.
Working on meta does not necessarily indicate
proficiency in  international
matters. On the other hand, I do think that there
should be  some criteria for
becoming a steward that should be clearly defined.

Ant : yes, but WHICH ones ?

*  Candidates should have at least 80% support
(neutral
not  counted)
To date, I have organized the board election and the
two arb comm elections
in Wikipedia. To the best of my recollection (and I
can check), no candidate
has  ever reached 80 percent of the vote. While I
agree on a high threshhold,
this  may not be it.

Ant : I think last elections had precisely this value
as a requirement, 80%. And 8 people made it. I nearly
did not :-) I had opposition... I think it is a
reasonable value. There are some elections you did not
organise Danny ;-)

*  Anyone can vote provided that the editor has a
valid
account on meta with a  link to at least one user page
on a project where the editor is a  participant
Valid account on meta from when? are we suddenly going
to see a rush on  meta
accounts?

Ant : a valid account on meta so that this account can
link to another project user page. This is standard on
all meta elections Danny.

* In  case of suspicion of sock puppetry, developers
could be asked to check and  sock puppet votes
cancelled.

What do you think  ?

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stewards

Ant

While the ideas are good in principle, I think that
they have to be  thought
out a bit more.

Danny

Ant : This is exactly why I made a proposal and
suggested feedback.

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subject: [Foundation-l] stewards elections


list: wikien-l

from_name: actionforum at comcast.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR and gaming the system

body:
------------- Original message --------------

>I'm sure the
> postings on this list, including those from the person promoting the
> "Australia is a republic" idea itself, have made it quite clear that a few
> well-chosen words in Talk: will have the person promoting the idea that
> "Australia is a republic" repudiating his views and voluntarily reverting
> his contributions in no time at all.

No, you just point out that he is right, and that "constitutional monarchy"
means republic and a little bit more, and if he wants to point that very thing
out a little later in the article than the introduction, that is OK.
                                           -- Silverback


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Aphaia

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Word of the Day

body:
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:17:04 +0100, Sabine Cretella
<sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> Hi!
Ciao Sabine

> Talking with Gerard on how to promote wiktionary we thought about a "the
> word of the day" list where people can subscribe and where we just take
> a word from the wiktionary each day and send it to the group together
> with the link on wiktionary.

A neat idea.
I think for promotion the most imporant is the activity on the project
itself,  but promotion on external sites, particular other Wikimedia
projects are effective. How about improvement of Wiktionary article on
your language Wikipedia?

And not only for the promotion of the project itself  but also for the
Foundation's promotion I am now planned to create Wiktionary page on
the foundation wiki. Though I don't ask opinion of the board as is,
some board member said it would be good each project has its own page.
The page newly created would be not so long (if possible no scroll
bar! ) but provide visitors (they are potential donors) with
sufficient information on the projects; its history, its mission, its
size and stats, future planning of publishing (iirc there is no plan
for wiktionary yet). The workspace is curently
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Aphaia/WMF/Our_projects/Wiktionary.
If you would like to see our draft for Wikipedia (some people helped
its development), it is on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Aphaia/WMF/Our_projects/Wikipedia
(and now filled meta:Wikipedia, too).

Your collaboration will be appliciated.
Cheers.

--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Proposal on VFD: enforcement of nomination policy

body:
-------------- Original message --------------

> I really don't see what's so hard about actually putting a reason bearing
> a relationship to policy, particularly when VFD explicitly says to do so.

What's hard, it that applying policy to to a factual situation is "original
research".  If we can't apply definitions of words, or count for ourselves,
perhaps we get out of the habit of reasoning.

                                      - Silverback


subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR and gaming the system

body:
-------------- Original message --------------

> In this case, I'm amazed saying "Australia is a republic" isn't
> being counted as simple vandalism. Repeatedly putting in misleading
> and plainly factually incorrect information certainly counted as
> vandalism when User:Michael was going hogwild at it.

Well, perhaps because you need to do more than point out
the ceremonial role of the monarch to make your case, that
appears to be all those with some aversion to a straight forward
application of the word "republic" have done.

I suspect there is something we are missing to this controversy,
perhaps the words "republic" and "constitutional monarchy",
have been hijacked as labels for political constituencies in those
countries, much like "life" and "choice" in the USA.  If, the
controversy is real, then it should be noted, although not
necessarily in the introduction.  But the other side should
get their say.

This ususually works out, although sometimes some weasal
words are also needed in the intro.  This is what makes wikipedia
more useful than "respected" encyclopedias, even the intro might
give you a clue that the establishment status quo is being questioned.

                           -- Silverback


subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR and gaming the system

body:
-------------- Original message --------------

> Strongly agree with Danny.
>
> I took a look at the Star Chamber ArbCom page and saw the latest effort
> against 172. Guess you never get tenure around here.

I disagree there is elitism here and 172 did have tenure, after all he had
recently been sanctioned by the arbcom, a couple years ago he had been
"temporarily" desysoped, and yet he retained his sysop powers to abuse
again.  Some people don't have the proper temperament or discipline to
be entrusted with sysop powers.  Perhaps if he had not been tempted by
power, he would still be here contributing.  There should be zero tolerance
for personal abuse of sysop powers (as opposed to mere mistakes of
fact or interpretation), instead of tenure.  I am pressing for such
a policy.
                             -- Silverback


body:
I am discussing this, in English, and if I recall correctly, the
English terms "West Frisian" and "East Frisian" correspond to the
Dutch terms "Westlauwers Fries" and "Saterfries".

I am not talking about Dutch dialects or dialects of Westlauwer
Frisian, but rather about the different varities of Frisian spoken
variously in two nations, the Netherlands (West Frisian) and Germany
(East Frisian, Peninsular North Frisian, Insular North Frisian; the
latter is sometimes even divided into separate languages for each
island).

I know what I am talking about, I have seen many books in English that
refer to it this way, though I can't speak for Dutch since I haven't
read much of anything in Dutch.

Mark

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:05:27 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark,
> Westfries is not Frisian, it is not even spoken in Friesland. It is
> spoken in Noord Holland. Some consider this a language some consider it
> a dialect. However Fries is what goes by the code of fy. If you know
> Frisian as much as all these other languages, please use its proper name.
>
> NB the differences between Oostfries and Westfries are massive indeed :)
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >The differences between West Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) and
> >East Frisian (spoken in Saterland) are massive.
> >
> >It would be rediculous to use the same Wikipedia.
> >
> >It might be different if fy: already had some content in Saterland
> >Frisian, but to the best of my knowledge it is entirely in Western
> >Frisian with the exception of one article which is bilingual in
> >Western Frisian and North Frisian, and bilingual I mean it has two
> >separate versions)
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:58 -0500, Stephen Forrest
> ><stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:42:52 +0100, Wouter Steenbeek
> >><musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further
> >>>details can be read at
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the
> >>>requests page.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I believe you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterland_Frisian_language.
> >>
> >>For the purposes of ISO 639 codes, Saterland Frisian is regarded as a
> >>dialect of Frisian.  Can you provide a rationale for why working
> >>within the Frisian Wikipedia is not tenable?
> >>
> >>I seem to recall reading that there were different spelling
> >>conventions for the Frisian spoken in Germany and that spoken in the
> >>Netherlands.  I have no idea how significant these differences are.
> >>
> >>Steve
> >>
>
>


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] New elections for stewards

body:
I personally think that elections for stewards is overkill, but I have
no objections if we must do it this way.

To me the simplest way is that if I trust people, I make them
stewards, and they agree to be good.  Simple.  It's not a political
position, it's a technical position.

--Jimbo


subject: [Foundation-l] stewards elections

body:
I see three candidates for Steward in this thread so far:
Yann, waerth, Danny.

Why don't I just make them all 3 stewards and we are done with it?

Those three are in irc all the time, and live in diverse parts of the
globe (France, New York USA, Thailand) so they add good time-of-day
diversity.

Stewards don't decide things, they carry out the wishes of the
community.  Therefore the issues of trust are quite minimal anyway,
and all three of those are stellar community members with excellent
reputations.

Having big public elections for everything is a bad idea.  People will
not be elected unless they are famous, but the way to get famous is not
the same thing as the way to be qualified for a technical position.

Imagine if we elected our developers for example...

--Jimbo


subject: [Foundation-l] stewards elections


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

body:
As one of the people who has requested stewardship, I want to comment on
some of the proposed rules:

In a message dated 3/5/2005 3:14:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
anthere9 at yahoo.com writes:

* it is  useless to keep in steward list an inactive
steward. Activity is show best  by activity on "request
for permission" (log is sometimes lost). I  hence
suggest that any steward with no edits on RfP and no
mention in  the log for 6 months be listed as inactive
and with no activity for a year,  be removed.
Fully agree. I do, however, think that there should be a cap on the number
of stewards.

* a  new election will be held in march (or soon)
It should be very clear who will be eligible to vote in this new election.
What are the criteria for voting.

*  candidates should have shown implication in
international matters, so we  could possibly require
that the candidate has sysop status on  meta.
Working on meta does not necessarily indicate proficiency in  international
matters. On the other hand, I do think that there should be  some criteria for
becoming a steward that should be clearly defined.

*  Candidates should have at least 80% support (neutral
not  counted)
To date, I have organized the board election and the two arb comm elections
in Wikipedia. To the best of my recollection (and I can check), no candidate
has  ever reached 80 percent of the vote. While I agree on a high threshhold,
this  may not be it.

*  Anyone can vote provided that the editor has a valid
account on meta with a  link to at least one user page
on a project where the editor is a  participant
Valid account on meta from when? are we suddenly going to see a rush on  meta
accounts?

* In  case of suspicion of sock puppetry, developers
could be asked to check and  sock puppet votes
cancelled.

What do you think  ?

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stewards

Ant

While the ideas are good in principle, I think that they have to be  thought
out a bit more.

Danny


subject: [Foundation-l] Stewards elections

body:
Aphaia was also interested I think, and a bunch of
editors who wrote me privately in the past months.
Also one on irc, but I do not remember his name. I
fear trying to find back their mails in the hundred I
receive each month :-)

Though I do not like elections as well, I think we do
not need to deploy an election thing the size of
national elections of a president...

As I already said to you 3 weeks ago, I am not so
supportive of you nominating these people without
community feedback. Currently, just as sysops,
stewards are people who were at some point trusted by
the community to carry out the wishes of the
community. It is strange to me that this change.

But if you want to do it this way, do it this way.

PS : though it is only a technical position, I fear it
holds a serious political weight :-) And the issue of
trust are certainly not minimal at all.

RePS : Danny decided to quit Wikipedia (according to
his page temporarily - well, I hope) because of
something I told him after he wrote his comment to
this list. I apology to him since I did not want to
hurt him in any way.

Greetings

Ant

--------

I see three candidates for Steward in this thread so
far:
Yann, waerth, Danny.

Why don't I just make them all 3 stewards and we are
done with it?

Those three are in irc all the time, and live in
diverse parts of the
globe (France, New York USA, Thailand) so they add
good time-of-day
diversity.

Stewards don't decide things, they carry out the
wishes of the
community.  Therefore the issues of trust are quite
minimal anyway,
and all three of those are stellar community members
with excellent
reputations.

Having big public elections for everything is a bad
idea.  People will
not be elected unless they are famous, but the way to
get famous is not
the same thing as the way to be qualified for a
technical position.

Imagine if we elected our developers for example...

--Jimbo

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/


subject: [Foundation-l] Stewards elections


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: A proposal for better communication on
	Foundation issues

body:
>The email problem seems to me like a bad spot showing
>more than you are
>talking about. What about gathering a volunteer staff
>like any non-profit
>organization ? I doubt very much the Red Croos
>association or Amnesty
>International coping the routine chores with 3
persons. >For the rest of it,
>I am of course willing to help on legal matters the
way >you find
>appropriate, your suggestion seems allright to me.
>villy

Thank you for understanding the thought being my idea
Villy.

I had many comments on irc, most positive. Some also
proposed their help by mail.

Initially, I had thought of putting it all on the
current board list. However, Angela noted this
possible requirement issue about privacy, which indeed
seems potentially problematic to me. She is rather
supportive of the two queue idea.

Jimbo is supportive of the idea of delegating, but
think a two board queue is too complicated, so would
rather support keeping it all in one queue, the
current board one. And allowing two people to help for
now.

Note that this would in effect help us with the mails,
but go against the privacy supported by Angela, and
not  go in the direction of creation of a volunteer
staff... unless the people allowed on this unique
board list is much bigger than currently suggested.

I agree a two board queue is more complicated, but on
the other hand, it allowed any mail to be at least
once seen by one of us.

As for the requirement of privacy, it could possibly
be left out if we are very very clear to say that
mails will not be "private" (though we would ask
allowed people on otrs to swear discretion I suppose).
In this case, private mails to board would be the
solution.

Currently, nothing seems clearly decided then.

Ant

__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/


from_name: Arno M

subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR: Pluses vs Minuses

body:
Not always.

Check out the edit history of the Sollog article, particularly
around Dec 27 2004, where a mother of all edit wars took place in spite
of, and possibly even because of, the 3RR rule.

This now seems to have consequently bought about that Sollog site that
I mentioned earlier.

Arno

----- Original Message -----
From: Delirium <delirium at hackish.org>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 3RR: Pluses vs Minuses
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:21:43 -0500

>
> Zoney wrote:
>
> > All the 3RR does in *some* circumstances is re-enforce Wikipedia's
> > majority bias. Even if it is a useful enforcement tool in many other
> > cases.
> >
> >
> It also, perhaps more importantly, contains damage by making revert
> wars by necessity very short.  Prior to the 3RR, we'd sometimes
> have revert wars going on for hundreds of reverts.
>
> -Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

--
_______________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR applied to both parties?

body:
That's my point, too, and one I made earlier, albeit none too clearly.

If someone puts in a biased, incorrect or dubious statement, he/she can then actually abuse the 3RR rule to make sure it stays in if anyone tries to correct it. This abuse includes threatening to invoke the 3RR rule.

I went through this kind of thing last year.

Arno

----- Original Message -----
From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 3RR applied to both parties?
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:26:42 -0500

>
> > From: <slimvirgin at gmail.com>
> >
> > If Geni's interpretation of 3RR is correct, then we have an unwinnable
> > game of tic tac toe going on against editors trying to keep nonsense
> > out of articles.
> >
>
> I've argued against this interpretation for precisely this reason;
> it is biased toward the inserter of the information, who can always
> win.  Thus I can go to a little watched article (say [[Rashba
> (rabbi)]]) and insert the statment
>
> "He had 4 sons and 1 daughter, and was noted for his handsome
> appearance.  He choked on a soup bone and died while visiting Rome
> in 1310."
>
> Now this is complete nonsense, I've just made it up.  But if the
> one person who happens to know this is nonsense reverts it, and an
> edit war develops, in the end the second person will get banned for
> 24 hours for removing the information, because it is not obvious
> vandalism.
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR and gaming the system

body:
Except that, like Daeron before you, you haven't been swayed by facts and checkable sources on this particular matter.

Arno
----- Original Message -----
From: Skyring <skyring at gmail.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 3RR and gaming the system
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:25:16 +1100

>
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:19:25 -0500, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
> > >
> > >In this case, I'm amazed saying "Australia is a republic" isn't
> > >being counted as simple vandalism. Repeatedly putting in misleading
> > >and plainly factually incorrect information certainly counted as
> > >vandalism when User:Michael was going hogwild at it.
> >
> > Tsk tsk, David.  Respect the process.  You must leave the erroneous
> > information in, and attempt to reason with the inserter on the Talk: page.
> > People who revert are simply thinking like an "edit warrior".  I'm sure the
> > postings on this list, including those from the person promoting the
> > "Australia is a republic"  idea itself,  have made it quite clear that a few
> > well-chosen words in Talk: will have the person promoting the idea that
> > "Australia is a republic" repudiating his views and voluntarily reverting
> > his contributions in no time at all.
>
> This is precisely the case. I can be swayed by facts and checkable
> sources. Abuse and hand-waving just doesn't do it for me.
>
> --
> Peter in Canberra
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

--
_______________________________________________
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from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] The 3RR made Ennis do it?

body:
> From: "Arno M" <redgum46 at lycos.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 3RR: Pluses vs Minuses
>

> Check out the edit history of the Sollog article, particularly
> around Dec 27 2004, where a mother of all edit wars took place in spite
> of, and possibly even because of, the 3RR rule.
>
> This now seems to have consequently bought about that Sollog site that
> I mentioned earlier.
> Arno

You can't be serious.

The edit war, Mr. Ennis' (SOLLOG)'s fury, and the wikipediasucks site
were caused by a belief on the part of Mr. Ennis (SOLLOG) that he could
use Wikipedia as a free publicity vehicle, and that he should be
allowed to control the content of a Wikipedia article.

The intensity of the edit war simply reflects the combativeness of Mr.
Ennis.

_Any_ reasonably neutral article, achieved by _whatever_ means, would
have infuriated him.

As the long-time operator of a number of websites, he retaliated in a
natural way.

Do you really believe that we could have achieved a reasonably neutral
article without the use of blocks? What indicates to you that his anger
was provoked by the procedures and process by which he was blocked,
rather than by the blocks themselves?

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR and gaming the system

body:
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:02:26 +0000, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> In this case, I'm amazed saying "Australia is a republic" isn't
> being counted as simple vandalism. Repeatedly putting in misleading
> and plainly factually incorrect information certainly counted as
> vandalism when User:Michael was going hogwild at it.

Perhaps you should read the discussion page. There is a gulf between
public perception and reality here, obviously. Much like people
incorrectly believing that Queen Elizabeth II is the Queen of England.

--
Peter in Canberra


subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR and gaming the system

body:
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:19:25 -0500, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
> >
> >In this case, I'm amazed saying "Australia is a republic" isn't
> >being counted as simple vandalism. Repeatedly putting in misleading
> >and plainly factually incorrect information certainly counted as
> >vandalism when User:Michael was going hogwild at it.
>
> Tsk tsk, David.  Respect the process.  You must leave the erroneous
> information in, and attempt to reason with the inserter on the Talk: page.
> People who revert are simply thinking like an "edit warrior".  I'm sure the
> postings on this list, including those from the person promoting the
> "Australia is a republic"  idea itself,  have made it quite clear that a few
> well-chosen words in Talk: will have the person promoting the idea that
> "Australia is a republic" repudiating his views and voluntarily reverting
> his contributions in no time at all.

This is precisely the case. I can be swayed by facts and checkable
sources. Abuse and hand-waving just doesn't do it for me.

--
Peter in Canberra


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Suitable topics for the family-friendly version of
	Wikipedia

references:
<42289A4E.7070201@thingy.apana.org.au> <d0aohu$j5c$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<1bfe3eb0503041512b5f1003@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Theresa Knott wrote:

> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:03:31 +0000, Pete/Pcb21
> <pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com> wrote:
>
>>David Gerard wrote:
>
>
>>Ermm, it seems to me like the livejournalers (I only read the first few,
>>admitedly) didn't actually understand the subtlety (such as it is) of
>>Bell Canada's advert?
>
>
> Well. it's late, and i'm feeling tired and stupid, so please spell it
> out for me because I didn't understand the subtlety myself.
>
> Theresa

Isn't Bell Canada saying that censoring a medical poster of the human
body would be a ridiculous extreme?


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wired News reporter would like to interview you

body:
I have been interviewed, also.  I look forward to the article, if only
because my answers to related questions were very different.  It'll be
interesting to see what he makes of it all.

Charles


from_name: Magosányi Árpád

body:
A levelez?m azt hiszi, hogy Anthere a k?vetkez?eket ?rta:
> For these reasons, a new election to name a couple
> more stewards will be held in the near future, as soon
> as we agree on the election rules.

Regarding election rules, I suggest to study the Debian
project: http://www.debian.org/vote/

Debian uses a Condorcet method, namely Cloneproof Schwartz Sequential Dropping.
They have a default "none of above" option.
Point 5.2 of the Constitution contains the rules for
electing the project leader, and appendix A contains
the general resolution procedure.

I think that these rules are the most democratic ones
among those I have seen so far.

Debian developers have pgp key, which makes the election
rather resistant against cheating. As wikimedia editors
are less formally selected, and do not necessarily have
a pgp key, it might be sufficient to authenticate them
using their username/password (which shows the problem
that accounts have no correlation between different parts
of wikiworld, but this can worked around by appointing
one part of wikiword for elections, like meta (for it is
such things) or wikipedia (for it have the most of the accounts
already, i guess)). There could be some additional controls
against cheating, if it is deemed to be an issue, like
giving vote right only to accounts which created before a
preset date, or those who have actual edits.

This (and I guess most of the voting methods proposable)
brings up the need to create the software which manages
the vote count (and I would prefer to see a software
managing the whole procedure, but it is not necessary
to hold an election).

--
GNU GPL: csak tiszta forr?sb?l


from_name: Andre Engels

body:
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:13:57 -0800 (PST), Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> In the past months, some editors have expressed the
> desire to become stewards. At the same time, some
> editors expressed the regret that there is no steward
> able to understand japanese or chinese and finally
> some editors complained current stewards were
> sometimes too slow to answer requests.

I plead guilty to this; I do not visit meta often enough. If there is
or ever is going to be a way to get notified of pagechanges by email,
I'd like to get those for [[meta:Requests for permissions]].

> This suggests to me the following rules
> * candidates should have shown implication in
> international matters, so we could possibly require
> that the candidate has sysop status on meta.

An interlingual interest sounds like a good requirement, but the way
in which you want to implement it not. I would prefer candidates to
state themselves the proof/indications for interlingual interest, and
have those that are insufficiently interlingual simply voted down.

> * Candidates should have at least 80% support (neutral
> not counted)

Also specify a minimum number of votes, so that 2 in favor, 0 against
does not count as 100%.

Apart from that, it would be good to have a minimum and maximum number
of people elected, so that with less than (for example) 5 candidates
with over 80% the 5 with highest support get elected, and with more
than (for example) 12, only the 12 with highest support get elected.
Instead of the lower bar, we could also specify that Angela, you, me,
Looxix and Mav are automatically reelected, I guess.

Andre Engels


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Word of the day - we should need some translations
 into other languages as well before I send it out

body:
http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/ermeneuta

English: hermeneutician
<http://it.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=hermeneutician&action=edit>
German: Hermeneutiker
<http://it.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Hermeneutiker&action=edit>
Spanish/Portuguese: *hermeneuta*

So if you know to say this very particular term in your language it
would be great to have it added. If you don't have the time to do it
yourself: just send it to me.

Ciao, Sabine


from_name: Minty

body:
it's not this is it?

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html

authored by a daniel, but different surname.


body:
> authored by a daniel, but different surname.

No - Daniel Terdiman has written a few web articles on WP already.

Charles


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Concerning NYPL, again

body:
--- Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> Can we use images from
>
> http://digitalgallery.nypl.org
>
> which are clearly im the PD by age, e.g., from the American Civil War?

IANAL but I'll talk about this anyway. :)

If the images are in the public domain, then, well, they are in the public
domain. Any claim of ownership has no legal basis unless they somehow enhanced
the images (which does not appear to be the case and the copyright would only
cover the enhancements).

So yes, use them. But good academic practice would be to credit them as the
source you copied from and provide a link back to their image metadata page for
the image you copied. It would also be nice to have '(from the NYPL Digital
Gallery)' in the caption of the image you use.

-- mav

__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Thomas Gries

subject: [Wikitech-l] Changing md5 of wikisysop user

body:
Can someone explain shortly, what the purpose of password salting, or
where I can read about it.
I forgot it.

>      * Salt a password. Will only be salted if $wgPasswordSalt is true


from_name: Brian M

body:
I agree with Tony.   Some of the categories within the deletion
policy, such as "no potential to become encyclopedic" or
"idiosyncratic non-topic" are quite generic, and while "What Wikipedia
is not" spells out further where consensus has been reached concerning
types of articles that are not "encyclopedic", etc, policy will never
exhaustively ennumerate all the categories of non-encyclopedic
articles that might be added to the encylopedia and which there will
be a consensus to delete.

It is a good thing that the policies include generic, umbrella,
grounds for deletion and that the precise significance of these is
decided on a case-by-case basis through consensus.   For example, if I
add an article about Engine #1 of my local town's volunteer fire
department, it would be verifiable (etc), since the engine is
mentioned on the town's web site.  One will not find in the deletion
policy, or in "What Wikipedia is not" that  articles about specific
fire engines are ruled out.   However, there would most likely be a
consensus that such an article would not be a suitable subject for an
encyclopedia article, and that it would at most merit a mention in the
article about the town.  (Unless it was an unusually famous fire
engine for some reason.)   It should not require consensus for an
amendment to the policies listing before the article can be listed on
VfD and consensus expressed to remove it.

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:10:33 -0000 (GMT), Tony Sidaway
<minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> Matt Brown said:
> >
> > I am much in favor of your suggestion that nominations at VfD that do
> > not reference a reason listed in the deletion policy should be removed
> > forthwith.
>
> Doesn't seem too unreasonable.  However I conceive of deletion policy as
> being more than just the words in the policy document.  In practise there
> are occasions when there is consensus to delete but nobody can agree what
> item of deletion policy applies.  This isn't a mistake--people can
> genuinely hold different opinions on whether a given item qualifies.  I
> see VfD, in this conception, as a kind of ad hoc court system.  A beauty
> contest, if you like. It's not ideal, but items that don't easily fit into
> the written deletion policy are generally harder to get consensus to
> delete, so it does work reasonably well most of the time.
> I think the flexibility is good.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Word of the day - we should need some translations
	into other languages as well before I send it out

body:
I just decided to change to
http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/ermeneutica - being sent out today in the
afternoon

as we have plenty of links to wikipedia as well.

Ciao, Sabine

Sabine Cretella wrote:

> http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/ermeneuta
>
> English: hermeneutician
> <http://it.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=hermeneutician&action=edit>
> German: Hermeneutiker
> <http://it.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Hermeneutiker&action=edit>
> Spanish/Portuguese: *hermeneuta*
>
> So if you know to say this very particular term in your language it
> would be great to have it added. If you don't have the time to do it
> yourself: just send it to me.
>
> Ciao, Sabine
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Mark,
Westfries is not Frisian, it is not even spoken in Friesland. It is
spoken in Noord Holland. Some consider this a language some consider it
a dialect. However Fries is what goes by the code of fy. If you know
Frisian as much as all these other languages, please use its proper name.

NB the differences between Oostfries and Westfries are massive indeed :)

Thanks,
    GerardM

Mark Williamson wrote:

>The differences between West Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) and
>East Frisian (spoken in Saterland) are massive.
>
>It would be rediculous to use the same Wikipedia.
>
>It might be different if fy: already had some content in Saterland
>Frisian, but to the best of my knowledge it is entirely in Western
>Frisian with the exception of one article which is bilingual in
>Western Frisian and North Frisian, and bilingual I mean it has two
>separate versions)
>
>Mark
>
>On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:58 -0500, Stephen Forrest
><stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:42:52 +0100, Wouter Steenbeek
>><musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further
>>>details can be read at
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the
>>>requests page.
>>>
>>>
>>I believe you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterland_Frisian_language.
>>
>>For the purposes of ISO 639 codes, Saterland Frisian is regarded as a
>>dialect of Frisian.  Can you provide a rationale for why working
>>within the Frisian Wikipedia is not tenable?
>>
>>I seem to recall reading that there were different spelling
>>conventions for the Frisian spoken in Germany and that spoken in the
>>Netherlands.  I have no idea how significant these differences are.
>>
>>Steve
>>


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Word of the Day

body:
Hi Aphaia!

>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Aphaia/WMF/Our_projects/Wiktionary.
>If you would like to see our draft for Wikipedia (some people helped
>its development), it is on
>
>
You mean I should modify the Italian version
http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pagina_principale
according to the example you provided? Or translate the page into Italian?

>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Aphaia/WMF/Our_projects/Wikipedia
>(and now filled meta:Wikipedia, too).
>
>
And for this one?

Do you need translation?

Ciao, Sabine

--

Sabine Cretella
Translations IT-DE, EN-DE
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
Meetingplace for translators
http://www.wesolveitnet.com
*****
Vuoi la parola del giorno nella tua casella di posta?
Invia un'e-mail vuota a:
laparoladelgiorno-subscribe at yahoogroups.com


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] stewards elections

body:
Hi,

FYI, I am also candidate as steward.

Le Saturday 5 March 2005 12:11, Anthere a ?crit :
> * it is  useless to keep in steward list an inactive
> steward. Activity is show best  by activity on
> "request for permission" (log is sometimes lost). I  hence
> suggest that any steward with no edits on RfP and no
> mention in  the log for 6 months be listed as inactive
> and with no activity for a year,  be removed.

Agreed.

> * a  new election will be held in march (or soon)
> It should be very clear who will be eligible to vote
> in this new election.
> What are the criteria for voting.
>
> Ant : anyone with an account on a project. We might
> wish to add a requirement of an account at least one
> month old with 50 edits.

Yes, something like this will do i think for preventing sock-puppets:

"Account created on one project at least one month before the start of the
vote with 50?edits."

> *  Anyone can vote provided that the editor has a
> valid
> account on meta with a  link to at least one user page
> on a project where the editor is a  participant
> Valid account on meta from when? are we suddenly going
> to see a rush on  meta
> accounts?
>
> Ant : a valid account on meta so that this account can
> link to another project user page. This is standard on
> all meta elections Danny.

See above.

> * In  case of suspicion of sock puppetry, developers
> could be asked to check and  sock puppet votes
> cancelled.
>
> What do you think  ?
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stewards
>
> Ant

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Foundation-l] stewards elections


subject: [WikiEN-l] Strange fetishes

body:
--- Michael Becker <wikimb at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wikipedia is a wiki community foremost and an encyclopedia second.

This is 100% exactly wrong. Our wiki/openness and community aspects are means
to an end (creating the largest and best encyclopedia in the world), *NOT* ends
in themselves or even our primary purpose.

-- mav

__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Apparently, you don't realise that there are basically 3 separate
Frisian languages.

Saterlandic Frisian (East Frisian) speakers most definitely DO NOT use
Westlauwer Frisian (West Frisian) as their standard language, nor do
North Frisian speakers use Westlauwer Frisian (West Frisian) as their
standard language.

I don't know if you realise it, but when you are speaking of
"Frisian", you seem to be referring only to that "Frisian" spoken in
the Netherlands (Westlauwer Frisian). There are related varieties
spoken in Germany, in places called "Ostfriesland" and
"Nordfriesland", which are not mutually intelligible with the Western
Frisian of the Netherlands.

Mark

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:06:30 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
>
> The term "Westlauwers Fries" is something of an oddity. It is a term
> that is hardly used it is not commonly used. When it is used at all, it
> is by people who only talk to themselves. Westfries is not a dialect of
> Frisian. The term West Frisian may be used by some outside of the
> Netherlands, but in my opinion it only shows that they do not look
> further than their noses.
>
> Frisian (ISO 639: fy - the language taught in Dutch schools) is a fairly
> recent standardized version of different types of Frisian. Fries is one
> of the hot topics in the nl:wikipedia. It is full of people who want to
> push their POV on this topic. I hope we will use more disambiguation
> pages because in my opinion it is the way forward.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >I am discussing this, in English, and if I recall correctly, the
> >English terms "West Frisian" and "East Frisian" correspond to the
> >Dutch terms "Westlauwers Fries" and "Saterfries".
> >
> >I am not talking about Dutch dialects or dialects of Westlauwer
> >Frisian, but rather about the different varities of Frisian spoken
> >variously in two nations, the Netherlands (West Frisian) and Germany
> >(East Frisian, Peninsular North Frisian, Insular North Frisian; the
> >latter is sometimes even divided into separate languages for each
> >island).
> >
> >I know what I am talking about, I have seen many books in English that
> >refer to it this way, though I can't speak for Dutch since I haven't
> >read much of anything in Dutch.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:05:27 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> ><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Mark,
> >>Westfries is not Frisian, it is not even spoken in Friesland. It is
> >>spoken in Noord Holland. Some consider this a language some consider it
> >>a dialect. However Fries is what goes by the code of fy. If you know
> >>Frisian as much as all these other languages, please use its proper name.
> >>
> >>NB the differences between Oostfries and Westfries are massive indeed :)
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>    GerardM
> >>
> >>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>The differences between West Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) and
> >>>East Frisian (spoken in Saterland) are massive.
> >>>
> >>>It would be rediculous to use the same Wikipedia.
> >>>
> >>>It might be different if fy: already had some content in Saterland
> >>>Frisian, but to the best of my knowledge it is entirely in Western
> >>>Frisian with the exception of one article which is bilingual in
> >>>Western Frisian and North Frisian, and bilingual I mean it has two
> >>>separate versions)
> >>>
> >>>Mark
> >>>
> >>>On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:58 -0500, Stephen Forrest
> >>><stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:42:52 +0100, Wouter Steenbeek
> >>>><musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further
> >>>>>details can be read at
> >>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the
> >>>>>requests page.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>I believe you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterland_Frisian_language.
> >>>>
> >>>>For the purposes of ISO 639 codes, Saterland Frisian is regarded as a
> >>>>dialect of Frisian.  Can you provide a rationale for why working
> >>>>within the Frisian Wikipedia is not tenable?
> >>>>
> >>>>I seem to recall reading that there were different spelling
> >>>>conventions for the Frisian spoken in Germany and that spoken in the
> >>>>Netherlands.  I have no idea how significant these differences are.
> >>>>
> >>>>Steve
> >>>>
>


body:
Did you read anything I wrote?

I was born in Arizona, and have lived here my entire life, but does
that mean I know everything about it?

Mark

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:32:30 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark,
> I was born in Zwaag. Zwaag is a small place with city rights and is now
> part of Hoorn. Zwaag can be found in Westfriesland. I assume that I have
> heard more Westfries spoken than you have. Hoorn, Medemblik and
> Enkhuizen, all Westfrisian cities, were some of the most important
> cities during the Dutch golden age. Apparently you assume that you know
> everything there is to know about all the languages in the word.  Oh, I
> forgot, I have an uncle whose name is Tijmstra, a respectable Frisian
> name. But then again, what do I know?
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Apparently, you don't realise that there are basically 3 separate
> >Frisian languages.
> >
> >Saterlandic Frisian (East Frisian) speakers most definitely DO NOT use
> >Westlauwer Frisian (West Frisian) as their standard language, nor do
> >North Frisian speakers use Westlauwer Frisian (West Frisian) as their
> >standard language.
> >
> >I don't know if you realise it, but when you are speaking of
> >"Frisian", you seem to be referring only to that "Frisian" spoken in
> >the Netherlands (Westlauwer Frisian). There are related varieties
> >spoken in Germany, in places called "Ostfriesland" and
> >"Nordfriesland", which are not mutually intelligible with the Western
> >Frisian of the Netherlands.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:06:30 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> ><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hoi,
> >>
> >>The term "Westlauwers Fries" is something of an oddity. It is a term
> >>that is hardly used it is not commonly used. When it is used at all, it
> >>is by people who only talk to themselves. Westfries is not a dialect of
> >>Frisian. The term West Frisian may be used by some outside of the
> >>Netherlands, but in my opinion it only shows that they do not look
> >>further than their noses.
> >>
> >>Frisian (ISO 639: fy - the language taught in Dutch schools) is a fairly
> >>recent standardized version of different types of Frisian. Fries is one
> >>of the hot topics in the nl:wikipedia. It is full of people who want to
> >>push their POV on this topic. I hope we will use more disambiguation
> >>pages because in my opinion it is the way forward.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>    GerardM
> >>
> >>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I am discussing this, in English, and if I recall correctly, the
> >>>English terms "West Frisian" and "East Frisian" correspond to the
> >>>Dutch terms "Westlauwers Fries" and "Saterfries".
> >>>
> >>>I am not talking about Dutch dialects or dialects of Westlauwer
> >>>Frisian, but rather about the different varities of Frisian spoken
> >>>variously in two nations, the Netherlands (West Frisian) and Germany
> >>>(East Frisian, Peninsular North Frisian, Insular North Frisian; the
> >>>latter is sometimes even divided into separate languages for each
> >>>island).
> >>>
> >>>I know what I am talking about, I have seen many books in English that
> >>>refer to it this way, though I can't speak for Dutch since I haven't
> >>>read much of anything in Dutch.
> >>>
> >>>Mark
> >>>
> >>>On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:05:27 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> >>><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Mark,
> >>>>Westfries is not Frisian, it is not even spoken in Friesland. It is
> >>>>spoken in Noord Holland. Some consider this a language some consider it
> >>>>a dialect. However Fries is what goes by the code of fy. If you know
> >>>>Frisian as much as all these other languages, please use its proper name.
> >>>>
> >>>>NB the differences between Oostfries and Westfries are massive indeed :)
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks,
> >>>>   GerardM
> >>>>
> >>>>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>The differences between West Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) and
> >>>>>East Frisian (spoken in Saterland) are massive.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It would be rediculous to use the same Wikipedia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It might be different if fy: already had some content in Saterland
> >>>>>Frisian, but to the best of my knowledge it is entirely in Western
> >>>>>Frisian with the exception of one article which is bilingual in
> >>>>>Western Frisian and North Frisian, and bilingual I mean it has two
> >>>>>separate versions)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Mark
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:58 -0500, Stephen Forrest
> >>>>><stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:42:52 +0100, Wouter Steenbeek
> >>>>>><musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further
> >>>>>>>details can be read at
> >>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the
> >>>>>>>requests page.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>I believe you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterland_Frisian_language.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>For the purposes of ISO 639 codes, Saterland Frisian is regarded as a
> >>>>>>dialect of Frisian.  Can you provide a rationale for why working
> >>>>>>within the Frisian Wikipedia is not tenable?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I seem to recall reading that there were different spelling
> >>>>>>conventions for the Frisian spoken in Germany and that spoken in the
> >>>>>>Netherlands.  I have no idea how significant these differences are.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Steve
> >>>>>>
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Favicon on wikimediafoundation.org

body:
Hi,

Just a small thing to enhance the foundation web site.
There is no favicon on it. Would be nice to have one.

http://wikimediafoundation.org

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Wikitech-l] Favicon on wikimediafoundation.org


body:
And, if you were born in Westfriesland, I assume you can understand at
least a little bit of Frisian.

So.

West Frisian: "Wolkom by de Fryske ferzje fan 'Wikipedia'. Ynformaasje
op Wikipedy is frij en fergees te br?ken. Foar jo gemak stiet lofts in
sykfunksje en hjir?nder kinne jo op ?nderwerp sykje."

East Frisian: "Ljude rakt et fuul un Lounde, do ap Goddes Waareld
stounde, man w?t gungt deer w?il uur Seelter, un uur t litje
Seelterlound?"

North Frisian (peninsular): "?Jucht, ??lje moune, jucht!" biiljked
H??welmoon, ouers e moune wus nargne tu sch?ns ?n e st??re uk ai; ja
wjarn ?l ?ltum??le tu beed lim."

North Frisian (insular), S?l'ring: "??s S?l'ring L?n', d? best ??s
helig; d? blefst ??s ain, d? best ??s Lek! Din Wiis t? hual'en, sen w?
welig. Di S?l'ring Spraak auriit w? ek. W? bliiv me di ark Tir
forb?n'en, sa lung ?s w? ?p Warel' sen. Uk diar jaar Uuning b?tl?n'
f?n'en,
Ja leng dach altert t? di hen."

All of these except Westlauwer Frisian ("Western Frisian") are spoken
in GERMANY, not the Netherlands.

I have seen these terms used extensively in books (for example
"linguistic minorities of western europe"), websites (Ethnologue,
Wikipedia, Lowlands-l, etc), and elsewhere both by Frisians and
non-Frisians.

If you know much Frisian at all you should be able to tell from the
samples what I am talking about. If you don't, you can show them to
your uncle, and ask him what he makes of them.

Mark

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:32:30 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark,
> I was born in Zwaag. Zwaag is a small place with city rights and is now
> part of Hoorn. Zwaag can be found in Westfriesland. I assume that I have
> heard more Westfries spoken than you have. Hoorn, Medemblik and
> Enkhuizen, all Westfrisian cities, were some of the most important
> cities during the Dutch golden age. Apparently you assume that you know
> everything there is to know about all the languages in the word.  Oh, I
> forgot, I have an uncle whose name is Tijmstra, a respectable Frisian
> name. But then again, what do I know?
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Apparently, you don't realise that there are basically 3 separate
> >Frisian languages.
> >
> >Saterlandic Frisian (East Frisian) speakers most definitely DO NOT use
> >Westlauwer Frisian (West Frisian) as their standard language, nor do
> >North Frisian speakers use Westlauwer Frisian (West Frisian) as their
> >standard language.
> >
> >I don't know if you realise it, but when you are speaking of
> >"Frisian", you seem to be referring only to that "Frisian" spoken in
> >the Netherlands (Westlauwer Frisian). There are related varieties
> >spoken in Germany, in places called "Ostfriesland" and
> >"Nordfriesland", which are not mutually intelligible with the Western
> >Frisian of the Netherlands.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:06:30 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> ><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hoi,
> >>
> >>The term "Westlauwers Fries" is something of an oddity. It is a term
> >>that is hardly used it is not commonly used. When it is used at all, it
> >>is by people who only talk to themselves. Westfries is not a dialect of
> >>Frisian. The term West Frisian may be used by some outside of the
> >>Netherlands, but in my opinion it only shows that they do not look
> >>further than their noses.
> >>
> >>Frisian (ISO 639: fy - the language taught in Dutch schools) is a fairly
> >>recent standardized version of different types of Frisian. Fries is one
> >>of the hot topics in the nl:wikipedia. It is full of people who want to
> >>push their POV on this topic. I hope we will use more disambiguation
> >>pages because in my opinion it is the way forward.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>    GerardM
> >>
> >>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I am discussing this, in English, and if I recall correctly, the
> >>>English terms "West Frisian" and "East Frisian" correspond to the
> >>>Dutch terms "Westlauwers Fries" and "Saterfries".
> >>>
> >>>I am not talking about Dutch dialects or dialects of Westlauwer
> >>>Frisian, but rather about the different varities of Frisian spoken
> >>>variously in two nations, the Netherlands (West Frisian) and Germany
> >>>(East Frisian, Peninsular North Frisian, Insular North Frisian; the
> >>>latter is sometimes even divided into separate languages for each
> >>>island).
> >>>
> >>>I know what I am talking about, I have seen many books in English that
> >>>refer to it this way, though I can't speak for Dutch since I haven't
> >>>read much of anything in Dutch.
> >>>
> >>>Mark
> >>>
> >>>On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:05:27 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> >>><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Mark,
> >>>>Westfries is not Frisian, it is not even spoken in Friesland. It is
> >>>>spoken in Noord Holland. Some consider this a language some consider it
> >>>>a dialect. However Fries is what goes by the code of fy. If you know
> >>>>Frisian as much as all these other languages, please use its proper name.
> >>>>
> >>>>NB the differences between Oostfries and Westfries are massive indeed :)
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks,
> >>>>   GerardM
> >>>>
> >>>>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>The differences between West Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) and
> >>>>>East Frisian (spoken in Saterland) are massive.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It would be rediculous to use the same Wikipedia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It might be different if fy: already had some content in Saterland
> >>>>>Frisian, but to the best of my knowledge it is entirely in Western
> >>>>>Frisian with the exception of one article which is bilingual in
> >>>>>Western Frisian and North Frisian, and bilingual I mean it has two
> >>>>>separate versions)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Mark
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:58 -0500, Stephen Forrest
> >>>>><stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:42:52 +0100, Wouter Steenbeek
> >>>>>><musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further
> >>>>>>>details can be read at
> >>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the
> >>>>>>>requests page.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>I believe you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterland_Frisian_language.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>For the purposes of ISO 639 codes, Saterland Frisian is regarded as a
> >>>>>>dialect of Frisian.  Can you provide a rationale for why working
> >>>>>>within the Frisian Wikipedia is not tenable?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I seem to recall reading that there were different spelling
> >>>>>>conventions for the Frisian spoken in Germany and that spoken in the
> >>>>>>Netherlands.  I have no idea how significant these differences are.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Steve
> >>>>>>
>


from_name: Jean-Christophe Chazalette

body:
The email problem seems to me like a bad spot showing more than you are
talking about. What about gathering a volunteer staff like any non-profit
organization ? I doubt very much the Red Croos association or Amnesty
International coping the routine chores with 3 persons. For the rest of it,
I am of course willing to help on legal matters the way you find
appropriate, your suggestion seems allright to me.
villy


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Why do all of my SAVEs result in ERROR messages?

body:
It was happening last night when I went to bed, and
it's still happening this afternoon.

RickK

__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/


subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
"Google's Wikipedia feature"?

RickK

__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/


from_name: Matthew Trump

subject: [Wikitech-l] Nofollow vote results on en.wikipedia

body:
Recently an open vote was held on the English wikipedia regarding
whether or not to use the 'rel="nofollow"' attribute in external
links. As many of you know, the attribute was recently created by
google as a possible means of controlling spam. As you know, use of
the attribute is controlled by a boolean flag in the MediaWiki
software.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Nofollow

Following the advice of the developers, community vote was set up. It
was open for two weeks and had spirited debate about the use of
"nofollow". The result of the vote was

Remove "nofollow" -- 61% (85 votes)
Keep "nofollow"   -- 39% (55 votes)

A strong majority of the voters would prefer that the attribute be
removed for the English Wikipedia.

I'm reporting this knowing that it's up the developers to implement
the will of the community. I know there is support among some the
developers for the continued use of this attribute on all the
wikimedia projects, but those of us who voted on the English
wikipedia did so in the belief that the decision in this case was up
to the community. As such, this is not meant as a discussion of the
attribute itself, only a notification fo the community decision for
the english wikipedia.

I've personally gotten ambiguous and imcomplete feedback from the
user who set up the vote, so I hope this can clear things up. As I
side note, some of the 'keep' voters expressed the desire to see the
attribute removed if the software could parse external links based on
an aging process. I know that since the software does not record
external links separately, this would be probably be a rather complex
modification of the code that would be a long time in development,
given other priorities. In the meantime, however, a strong majority
of the voters have voted "remove".

Best wishes and with great respect for your efforts,

Matthew Trump


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Link on wiktionary.org --> wikipedia list

body:
Hi, I just noted that the link to "Complete list" on the portal page of
wiktionary leads to the complete list of all wikipedias. Where can this
be changed?

Thanks!

Sabine

--

Sabine Cretella
Translations IT-DE, EN-DE
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
Meetingplace for translators
http://www.wesolveitnet.com
*****
Vuoi la parola del giorno nella tua casella di posta?
Invia un'e-mail vuota a:
laparoladelgiorno-subscribe at yahoogroups.com


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR applied to both parties?

body:
Adam Carr was being abusive and clearly violated the 3RR rule. He is,
from my experience, one of the most abusive editors I have come across
on Wikipedia. Skyring was consistent in offering sources and logic for
his edits, and in refraining from retaliating to Adam's provocative
abuse.

It doesn't matter in the slightest that Adam purports not to like
seeing "people blocked for 3RR, even when he disagrees with them."
Apart from the fact that he was trying to cover his own ass this is not
the preference of the Wikipedia community.

Skyring was correct to report him and to imply that doing so was some
kind of backstab is to intimidate.

Christiaan

On 4 Mar 2005, at 3:56 am, <slimvirgin at gmail.com> wrote:

> You were also reverting, that's why, and Adam did warn you, I believe,
> that you had violated, or were about to violate, 3RR.  He also said
> that he wouldn't report it, and if you did get blocked, he'd object on
> your behalf, because he doesn't like to see people blocked for 3RR,
> even when he disagrees with them. Shortly after he said that to you,
> you went and reported him.
>
> Sarah
>
>
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:28:35 +1100, Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm puzzled. I made a 3RR report when the other guy made 4 reverts in
>> 24 hours. He'd stopped talking and had become abusive so I pulled the
>> trigger, having refrained from undoing his 4th revert. Yet I've been
>> blocked for a 3RR breach. How is this so?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/
>> 3RR#User:Adam_Carr
>>
>> Pete (Skyring)


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] Changing username (Re: New elections for stewards)

body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:
> Can stewards also get the power to change usernames?

Changing usernames currently requires manual digging in the database,
which is error-prone and dangerous. It's not something that stewards are
able to do at present.

Anyway why bother? Just make an account under your new name and you're done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:
> Can stewards also get the power to change usernames?

Changing usernames currently requires manual digging in the database,
which is error-prone and dangerous. It's not something that stewards are
able to do at present.

Anyway why bother? Just make an account under your new name and you're done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:
> Can stewards also get the power to change usernames?

Changing usernames currently requires manual digging in the database,
which is error-prone and dangerous. It's not something that stewards are
able to do at present.

Anyway why bother? Just make an account under your new name and you're done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:
> Can stewards also get the power to change usernames?

Changing usernames currently requires manual digging in the database,
which is error-prone and dangerous. It's not something that stewards are
able to do at present.

Anyway why bother? Just make an account under your new name and you're done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR and gaming the system

body:
> Actuakky what David was saying is if it's vandalism,
> just protecy the
> page already, or block the vandal. Problem solved.
>
> There is _never_ any need for a legit user to break
> the 3RR
>
> Theresa

Well, I hope that the person who has been reverting
isn't the person who does the protecting.  That's not
acceptable under policy.

RickK

__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/


subject: [Wikitech-l] searching old versions?

body:
Ilya N. Golubev wrote:
> History pages do not (obviously) refer to searching in old versions of
> article.  There is certainly a way to retrieve article versions one by
> one, and one could (theoretically) do that in batch mode and search in
> them locally.  And that would be suboptimal wrt both user bandwidth
> and wikipedia server load.  Is there a way to search in old versions
> of article?

No. Maintaining a fulltext search index of old revisions is
hypothetically possible but would be prohibitive in terms of eg disk
space usage. (As it is we put a lot of effort into compressing old
revision data, as that makes up the bulk of our database.)

We can't afford to dedicate the necessary resources for it at this time.

Pulling revisions of a particular page one-by-one and searching in them
might be possible but will also be an expensive runtime operation.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Hoi,

The term "Westlauwers Fries" is something of an oddity. It is a term
that is hardly used it is not commonly used. When it is used at all, it
is by people who only talk to themselves. Westfries is not a dialect of
Frisian. The term West Frisian may be used by some outside of the
Netherlands, but in my opinion it only shows that they do not look
further than their noses.

Frisian (ISO 639: fy - the language taught in Dutch schools) is a fairly
recent standardized version of different types of Frisian. Fries is one
of the hot topics in the nl:wikipedia. It is full of people who want to
push their POV on this topic. I hope we will use more disambiguation
pages because in my opinion it is the way forward.

Thanks,
    GerardM

Mark Williamson wrote:

>I am discussing this, in English, and if I recall correctly, the
>English terms "West Frisian" and "East Frisian" correspond to the
>Dutch terms "Westlauwers Fries" and "Saterfries".
>
>I am not talking about Dutch dialects or dialects of Westlauwer
>Frisian, but rather about the different varities of Frisian spoken
>variously in two nations, the Netherlands (West Frisian) and Germany
>(East Frisian, Peninsular North Frisian, Insular North Frisian; the
>latter is sometimes even divided into separate languages for each
>island).
>
>I know what I am talking about, I have seen many books in English that
>refer to it this way, though I can't speak for Dutch since I haven't
>read much of anything in Dutch.
>
>Mark
>
>On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:05:27 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Mark,
>>Westfries is not Frisian, it is not even spoken in Friesland. It is
>>spoken in Noord Holland. Some consider this a language some consider it
>>a dialect. However Fries is what goes by the code of fy. If you know
>>Frisian as much as all these other languages, please use its proper name.
>>
>>NB the differences between Oostfries and Westfries are massive indeed :)
>>
>>Thanks,
>>    GerardM
>>
>>Mark Williamson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The differences between West Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) and
>>>East Frisian (spoken in Saterland) are massive.
>>>
>>>It would be rediculous to use the same Wikipedia.
>>>
>>>It might be different if fy: already had some content in Saterland
>>>Frisian, but to the best of my knowledge it is entirely in Western
>>>Frisian with the exception of one article which is bilingual in
>>>Western Frisian and North Frisian, and bilingual I mean it has two
>>>separate versions)
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:58 -0500, Stephen Forrest
>>><stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:42:52 +0100, Wouter Steenbeek
>>>><musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further
>>>>>details can be read at
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the
>>>>>requests page.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>I believe you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterland_Frisian_language.
>>>>
>>>>For the purposes of ISO 639 codes, Saterland Frisian is regarded as a
>>>>dialect of Frisian.  Can you provide a rationale for why working
>>>>within the Frisian Wikipedia is not tenable?
>>>>
>>>>I seem to recall reading that there were different spelling
>>>>conventions for the Frisian spoken in Germany and that spoken in the
>>>>Netherlands.  I have no idea how significant these differences are.
>>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>>


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Matt Brown said:
>
> I am much in favor of your suggestion that nominations at VfD that do
> not reference a reason listed in the deletion policy should be removed
> forthwith.

Doesn't seem too unreasonable.  However I conceive of deletion policy as
being more than just the words in the policy document.  In practise there
are occasions when there is consensus to delete but nobody can agree what
item of deletion policy applies.  This isn't a mistake--people can
genuinely hold different opinions on whether a given item qualifies.  I
see VfD, in this conception, as a kind of ad hoc court system.  A beauty
contest, if you like. It's not ideal, but items that don't easily fit into
the written deletion policy are generally harder to get consensus to
delete, so it does work reasonably well most of the time.
I think the flexibility is good.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: stewards elections

body:
--- Walter Vermeir <walter at wikipedia.be> wrote:
> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales schreef:
> > I see three candidates for Steward in this thread so far:
> > Yann, waerth, Danny.
> >
> > Why don't I just make them all 3 stewards and we are done with it?
> [cut]
> >
> > Having big public elections for everything is a bad idea.  People will
> > not be elected unless they are famous, but the way to get famous is not
> > the same thing as the way to be qualified for a technical position.
> >
> > Imagine if we elected our developers for example...
> >
> > --Jimbo
>
> I vote for this option ;-)

I started a vote on this at [[meta:Vote on whether or not we should vote for
stewards]].

Just kidding. :)

--mav

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subject: [Foundation-l] Re: stewards elections


body:
--- Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > So is the so-called deletion policy purely
> decorative, and in fact
> > something that should itself be deleted to avoid
> confusion?
> >
> > 'Cos what I'm saying is to just enforce the policy
> that's already
> > there, and is referred to both at beginning and
> end of VFD as being
> > a thing to follow, in the hope of making VFD
> somewhat smaller so
> > that it may be more humanly manageable.
> >
> > I really don't see what's so hard about actually
> putting a reason bearing
> > a relationship to policy, particularly when VFD
> explicitly says to do so.
>
> To clarify, I was responding to Pete/Pcb21's
> suggestion that was,
> basically, "Why use VFD at all, we should just
> decide what should be
> speedy deleted and use that."
>
> I am much in favor of your suggestion that
> nominations at VfD that do
> not reference a reason listed in the deletion policy
> should be removed
> forthwith.
>
> -Matt (User:Morven)

But that's not what's being proposed here.  What's
being proposed is, if anybody coming into the
discussion thinks that the reason for the listing
isn't acceptable, they can just delete it from the VfD
page.  Why not just let it run its course, and vote
Keep?  Because radical inclusionists are afraid they'd
lose the vote.  ~~~~

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from_name: Walter van Kalken

body:
Sounds good apart from this one:

> so we could possibly require
>that the candidate has sysop status on meta.
>
>
That is the only rule I would (for obvious reasons) object to.

Waerth/Walter van Kalken


from_name: David Gerard

body:
actionforum at comcast.net wrote:

>>I really don't see what's so hard about actually putting a reason bearing
>>a relationship to policy, particularly when VFD explicitly says to do so.

> What's hard, it that applying policy to to a factual situation is "original
> research".  If we can't apply definitions of words, or count for ourselves,
> perhaps we get out of the habit of reasoning.

Er, I can make no sense of your response in terms of the discussion. Could
you please clarify? Where TF does 'original research' come into VFD policy?

- d.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] stewards elections

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales schreef:
> I see three candidates for Steward in this thread so
far:
> Yann, waerth, Danny.
>
> Why don't I just make them all 3 stewards and we are
done with it?
[cut]
>
> Having big public elections for everything is a bad
idea.  People will
> not be elected unless they are famous, but the way
to get famous is not
> the same thing as the way to be qualified for a
technical position.
>
> Imagine if we elected our developers for example...
>
> --Jimbo

I vote for this option ;-)

--
[[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]]

Imagine the day we nominate developers...

So, right now, Jimbo, you should nominate

Britty
Waerth
Yann
Aurevilly
Fire
Oscar

It would be fair to wait for possibly 2 weeks so that
the fact non-elections will occur be public and any
intersted person can candidate.

I would love to see more people speaking asian
languages, such as chinese, and more for African
countries (possibly arab).

ant

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subject: [Foundation-l] stewards elections


body:
Matthew Trump wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Nofollow

Thanks for the link.

> A strong majority of the voters would prefer that the attribute be
> removed for the English Wikipedia.
>
> I'm reporting this knowing that it's up the developers to implement
> the will of the community.

I think it's disingenuous to speak of "the will of the community" when
it's very clear from reading the comments on the vote page that "the
will of the community" is deeply divided. There are distinct positions,
both with very strong support, based on incompatible premises:

A: Wikipedia *should* reward good sites
B: Wikipedia is not obligated to "reward" anybody at all

A: Wikipedia should reward *good* sites
B: Wikipedia is obligated to remain neutral, and must not make
judgements on who should be "rewarded"

A: Spam is a lower priority than rewarding quality web resources; we
already weed out spam relatively well
B: Spam's a big problem and only going to get worse as time goes on, and
rewarding spammers' web sites probably isn't what you had in mind

Clearly an all-or-nothing toggle isn't going to satisfy anybody, much
less everybody. So "implementing the will of the community", if it is to
mean anything, must mean something *other* than turning a toggle off or
leaving it on.

What do you suggest?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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references:
<849f98ed05030512136577af55@mail.gmail.com>
	<9SJNOB08bzB@westermayer-74391.user.cis.dfn.de>
	<422A3A5B.5090501@gmail.com>

body:
Gerard is not realising what I am saying.

There are indeed 3 different Frisian languages. Gerard believes I am
talking about the various Frisian and Westfries (?) dialects of the
Netherlands, but I am not. I am speaking of West Frisian (the Frisian
of the Netherlands), which it is called by experts in books, on
websites, and in conversation, vs. East Frisian (the Frisian of
Saterland in Germany), vs. North Frisian (the Frisian of Nordfriesland
in Germany).

I don't think Gerard realises that the latter two exist, and that the
reason "West Frisian" is used by experts to refer to what most Dutch
people simply call Fries ("Frisian") is because there are two
different "Frisian" languages from which it must be differentiated.

Mark

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:01:47 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi Till,
>
> Fries, is a hot topic on the nl:wikipedia. We have had our fair share of
> skirmishes there. I have complained that what some call West Frisian is
> not West Frisian at all. It is Frisian. The history of the Frisians is a
> bit more complicated than most people know and many have decided to call
> Frisian proper all kind of names, including Westerlauwers Fries and West
> Frisian.
>
> Westfries is something seperate. It was spoken in what is now Noord
> Holland and practically nobody speaks it anymore. Node is basically
> repeating what he reads in books. I live in this area called
> Westfriesland, I even have family coming from Friesland proper. Node
> decides that I do not know what I am talking about which is fine.
> Frisian is not three varieties like Node says. In
> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries_%28taal%29 you may find that it can
> be split up even further not even considering Westfries as part of this
> all. This Westerlauwers Fries is a concept dreamed up to put many
> varieties of Frisian together. You will not have anyone in the
> Netherlands call Frisian West Frisian. To me it is stupid, never mind
> what fancy book it is in.
>
> Thanks, :)
>     GerardM
>
>
> Till Westermayer wrote:
>
> >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
> >
> >Hi Mark, hi Gerard,
> >
> >
> >
> >>Apparently, you don't realise that there are basically 3 separate
> >>Frisian languages.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >am I the only one how isn't able to realize what the hot fought
> >discussion is about? As far as I understood the mails, Mark and Gerard
> >were saying more or less the same. What is the difference?
> > __ .
> > / / / /                            ... Till Westermayer - till we *)
> >. .
> >  . mailto:till at tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072
> >  . Hirschstra?e 5. 79100 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179
> >  . . . . .
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Christopher Larberg

body:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:19:01 -0800, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Clearly an all-or-nothing toggle isn't going to satisfy anybody, much
> less everybody. So "implementing the will of the community", if it is to
> mean anything, must mean something *other* than turning a toggle off or
> leaving it on.
>
> What do you suggest?
>

The technical compromises that have been batted around (adding
nofollow for a certain amount of time after the link was added, etc.)
seem the most ideal to me. Unfortunately, these all require coding.
Until the developers devise a technical solution, the community is
stuck with a yes/no option.

To clarify, I was the user who organized the vote on en. I apologize
to Matthew for the lack of a prompt response; I was snowed under with
work this week and had little time to devote to Wikipedia.

--Slowking Man


body:
--- "Lauri Love (nsh)" <lauri.love at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:28:02 -0800 (PST), Rick
> <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > But that's not what's being proposed here.  What's
> > being proposed is, if anybody coming into the
> > discussion thinks that the reason for the listing
> > isn't acceptable, they can just delete it from the
> VfD
> > page.  Why not just let it run its course, and
> vote
> > Keep?  Because radical inclusionists are afraid
> they'd
> > lose the vote.  ~~~~
>
> I don't think that whether we have an article on a
> subject or not
> should be decided by <s>popularity contest</s>mere
> majority/plurality
> voting. Should there not be visible and
> comprehensible principles that
> decide what is encyclopedic and what isn't? I don't
> think anyone (at
> least with any support) is proposing that people
> everyone should get a
> VfD veto, which is what your post implied, but
> rather that we don't
> let adding to the VfD page be something that can be
> done on a whim. If
> popularity was any measure, we'd have a million
> articles on celebrity
> trivia (_not a bad thing in itself_) and no articles
> in obscure areas
> of mathematics, or history.
>
> -nsh

The proposal is that anybody can come along and remove
a VfD listing if they disagree with the lister's
reasons for listing.  We have lots of people (SimonP
for instance, who began all of this) who think that
"non-encylopedic" or "non-notable" are not acceptable
reasons for listing articles.  But yet many, many,
many of the articles on VfD are listed for those very
reasons, and many, many, many of them pass consensus
vote.  This is an end-run by SimonP and the people who
hold the opinions he holds, to set their, and only
their, approval on VfD.

I believe it was SimonP himself (forgive me if I'm
wrong) who, in his position as sysop, was making
personal opinions on whether or not articles which HAD
consensus to be deleted, should remain in the
encyclopedia solely because HE did not believe that
the reason for listing was valid, even though there
were sufficient votes for removing the article.
Instead, he was deleting the completed votes without
deleting the articles in question.

RickK

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from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New elections for stewards

body:
Andre Engels wrote:

> Instead of the lower bar, we could also specify that Angela, you, me,
> Looxix and Mav are automatically reelected, I guess.

Looxix has left the project, AFAIK (not in a bad mood, he simply wants
to spend more time on other things).

greetings,
elian


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Saterlandic Frisian Wikipedia

body:
Perhaps it should be noted that Dutch "Westfries" is different than
English "West Frisian". They refer to two different speech varieties.
I believe the English word for "Westfries" is in fact "Westfries",
while the Dutch equivalent of "West Frisian" is "Westerlauwers Fries"
(Gerard seems to think only stupid people use this term) or what most
Dutch people simply call "Fries" (or if they're Westerlauwers Frisian,
"Frysk").

This is one case where direct translations are not suitable and lead
to much confusion:

Similarly when I say "Afrikaans taalinstituut" (sp?), it would
directly be translated as "Institute of African languages" but it is
also very possible that we should translate it as "Afrikaans language
institute".

Mark

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:24:29 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Gerard is not realising what I am saying.
>
> There are indeed 3 different Frisian languages. Gerard believes I am
> talking about the various Frisian and Westfries (?) dialects of the
> Netherlands, but I am not. I am speaking of West Frisian (the Frisian
> of the Netherlands), which it is called by experts in books, on
> websites, and in conversation, vs. East Frisian (the Frisian of
> Saterland in Germany), vs. North Frisian (the Frisian of Nordfriesland
> in Germany).
>
> I don't think Gerard realises that the latter two exist, and that the
> reason "West Frisian" is used by experts to refer to what most Dutch
> people simply call Fries ("Frisian") is because there are two
> different "Frisian" languages from which it must be differentiated.
>
> Mark
>
> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:01:47 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi Till,
> >
> > Fries, is a hot topic on the nl:wikipedia. We have had our fair share of
> > skirmishes there. I have complained that what some call West Frisian is
> > not West Frisian at all. It is Frisian. The history of the Frisians is a
> > bit more complicated than most people know and many have decided to call
> > Frisian proper all kind of names, including Westerlauwers Fries and West
> > Frisian.
> >
> > Westfries is something seperate. It was spoken in what is now Noord
> > Holland and practically nobody speaks it anymore. Node is basically
> > repeating what he reads in books. I live in this area called
> > Westfriesland, I even have family coming from Friesland proper. Node
> > decides that I do not know what I am talking about which is fine.
> > Frisian is not three varieties like Node says. In
> > http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries_%28taal%29 you may find that it can
> > be split up even further not even considering Westfries as part of this
> > all. This Westerlauwers Fries is a concept dreamed up to put many
> > varieties of Frisian together. You will not have anyone in the
> > Netherlands call Frisian West Frisian. To me it is stupid, never mind
> > what fancy book it is in.
> >
> > Thanks, :)
> >     GerardM
> >
> >
> > Till Westermayer wrote:
> >
> > >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
> > >
> > >Hi Mark, hi Gerard,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Apparently, you don't realise that there are basically 3 separate
> > >>Frisian languages.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >am I the only one how isn't able to realize what the hot fought
> > >discussion is about? As far as I understood the mails, Mark and Gerard
> > >were saying more or less the same. What is the difference?
> > > __ .
> > > / / / /                            ... Till Westermayer - till we *)
> > >. .
> > >  . mailto:till at tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072
> > >  . Hirschstra?e 5. 79100 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179
> > >  . . . . .
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


body:
--- Pete/Pcb21 <pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com>
wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
> > But that's not what's being proposed here.  What's
> > being proposed is, if anybody coming into the
> > discussion thinks that the reason for the listing
> > isn't acceptable, they can just delete it from the
> VfD
> > page.  Why not just let it run its course, and
> vote
> > Keep?  Because radical inclusionists are afraid
> they'd
> > lose the vote.  ~~~~
>
> No, it's because they bored of having to
> re-establish long, long, long
> standing policy over and over and over again because
> of the way VfD
> currently works. Imagine you had to explain yourself
> everytime you used
> the revert button to undo edits against established
> policy.
>
> Pete

ANYBODY who is reverting VfD edits should be blocked
from editing.

RickK

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body:
--- David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Pretty obviously, anyone deleting a nomination in
> the bogus
> manner you describe will be reverted in damn short
> order.
> I expect you will likely be the one doing so.
>
>
> - d.

Are you saying that I would be the one likely to
revert somebody who deleted a VfD listing?  Damn
straight.  And listing the editor on RfC.

RickK

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body:
--- David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (I still don't see what's so damned hard about
> having to give a listed reason with one's
> nomination,
> JUST LIKE IT SAYS TO DO AT THE TOP AND BOTTOM OF
> VFD.
> Can you please explain to me why that's even there
> if
> it's too hard?)
>
>
> - d.

But that's not what this proposal is asking for.  It's
asking to be allowed to delete the listing if the
person who deleted it doesn't agree with the reason
for listing.

RickK

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from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Concerning NYPL, again

body:
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Can we use images from

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org

which are clearly im the PD by age, e.g., from the American Civil War?

Magnus
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