body:
Tony Sidaway (minorityreport at bluebottle.com) [050210 23:50]:
> David Gerard said:

> > If we have a precedent that zh: can block the existence of a Cantonese
> > Wikipedia, can en: block Quenya? Please?

> I hope we have no such precedent.  Allowing the speakers of a rival
> language to veto the production of a Wikipedia would not be right.

Fuzheado's arguments appear to be along those lines - in particular the
argument that zh: needs the resources instead (as if volunteers are
employees who can be reassigned at will, even assuming the argument it
needs the resources so desperately is valid).

> Their
> observations (and I've seen some potentially persuasive arguments on
> either side in the Chinese Wikipedia discussion though I have not
> investigated it closely) should not be dismissed as irrelevant, but they
> shouldn't be allowed to block an otherwise viable Wikipedia.

We have Wikipedias for things that are clearly dialects; Cantonese is
mutually-unintelligible with Mandarin.

But let's start a Quenya Wikipedia instead. Hell, that's not grossly
insulting! At all!

- d.


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request

body:
Pablo Saratxaga (pablo at mandrakesoft.com) [050211 00:20]:

> That is the problem; what the proposers of those languages want is
> not a Wikipedia!
> They want a playgroung, feature the wonderfull mediawiki software
> (which has evolved to be the best wiki software out there).
> Imho such demands should be redirected to wikibooks or a similar thing
> (maybe not hosted by wikipedia foundation); it will be even better for
> them, as there won't be the need to write NPOV encyclopedic articles.
> As for people doing research, I can perfectly imagine people doing
> research in Klingon about Klingon language topics (or about supposed
> Klingon fictional universe); but indeed I don't imagine them doing
> research in Klingon about chemistry, medieval European history
> or Russian litterature...
> So, a mediawiki site for those fictional language makes sense and
> is legitimate, but it should definitively not be a wikipedia; it doesn't
> has the same goels, and it should have the same constraints either.

I think you've got it precisely correct.

They would probably be good candidates for Wikicities or something if they
don't have the technical abilities/resources to set up Mediawiki
themselves.

> (I feel the same about some dead non-fictional languages, like
> classical Latin or Anglo-saxon)

That's an interesting point, given the precedent of their existence ...
though Latin still has life in it as an international auxiliary language.
What do the Anglo-Saxon volunteers think of this argument?

- d.


from_name: V. Ivanov

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:56:54 +0100, Pablo Saratxaga wrote:
> > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:55:05 -0500, Stephen Forrest
> >> It seems to me to be a reasonable thing to insist that a language must
> >> have at one time been a native tongue of some human population in
> >> order for it to be granted a wikipedia.
>
> No!
> With that criterium the Esperanto wikipedia would have been denied.

According to independent sources (as ethnologue.com), the number of
native speakers of Esperanto is about 200 to 2000. I presume, the
number is underestimated: there are at least four "denaskuloj" (native
speakers of Esperanto) only among my close friends.

Thank you all for mentioning Ossetian! :) At the moment we use
MediaWiki at http://vicerveza.homeunix.net/osetio/ to collect
community, to ellaborate better terms for technical things and just to
practice before getting to real work.

Sincerely,
Slavik Ivanov,
Russia
--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [Wikipedia-l] public service ads in Wikipedia?

body:
No offense, but I actually agree with node on this. The Foundation is
and should remain neutral on all issues (to the best of its ability).
Ads, and more importantly, choosing them, is a can of worms that
doesn't need to be opened up.

--Slowking Man

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:43:57 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> This suggests that we are anti-smoking, pro-education, anti-discrimination, etc.
>
> We are here to document stuff, not take a stand on it.
>
> Mark


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikicite project pages (english versions only
	so	far)

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

[snip]

 > --
 > http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                           |      ,__o
 >                                                         |    _-\_<,
 >                                                         |   (*)/'(*)
 > Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4  AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C

I may have to "steal" that ASCII art bicyclist from you.  How should I
attribute it?

--
Chad


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
This suggests that we are anti-smoking, pro-education, anti-discrimination, etc.

We are here to document stuff, not take a stand on it.

Mark

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:45:19 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> On Friday 11 February 2005 02:37, Mark Williamson wrote:
> > Showing ads for, for example, anti-patent groups, gives the idea that
> > Wikipedia supports these groups.
>
> There are anti-smoking, education, science/math or anti-discrimination ads,
> too. I think it would be safe to show these ads.
>
> --
> NSK
> http://portal.wikinerds.org/
>


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Capitalisation on eo.wiktionary.org

body:
Sabine Cretella wrote:
> Does anybody know if capitalisation on the Esperanto wiktionary has been
> taken of

Not yet... is now.

> and if it is on UTF-8?

It always has been, and would not work otherwise. (I added UTF-8 support
specifically *for* Esperanto back in the day. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
Neil Harris (usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk) [050211 02:48]:

> Here's a compromise proposal: the Chinese Wikipedia should be regarded
> as having succeeded beyond doubt when it has reached an article count of
> N articles, where N might be, say, 50,000. At that point, the barrier to
> creating other Chinese-language should be dropped. At the current rate
> of growth, that will probably be sometime next year.
> Here's the nice, counter-intuitive consequence to this proposal: it
> provides an incentive to alternative-Chinese-language proponents to add
> content to the mainstream-Chinese Wikipedia, and recruit more people to
> do so, so that it will grow as rapidly as possible. When the 50,000
> target is reached, it is probable that many of these new editors will
> start to concentrate on their own local language versions; however, many
> of them will, I imagine, also continue to work on the main Chinese
> Wikipedia, and there will be a major incentive for content to flow in
> translation between the different Chinese Wikipedias. So it's a win-win
> proposal.

It's a fairly easy proposal to argue against: zh: has already reached
critical mass and will keep growing, barring the vicissitues of the Chinese
government (which is a force orthogonal to this argument).

Further argument against: it's a "compromise" with a position that is
untenable to start with - trying to take volunteers who've come forward for
a different idea to work on your own project rather than that one.

Further argument against: there is no natural reason why someone whose
interest is captured by a Cantonese wikipedia should be forced to work on a
Mandarin one first.

- d.


list: wikien-l

from_name: actionforum at comcast.net

subject:
Wikipedia should be SECRETLY satisfied ( was Re: [WikiEN-l] Proposal
	for a new policy

body:
Don't sweat it so much.  Sure wikipedia has the "goal" of being an encyclopedia, but achieving that goal would be a disappointment, it would become just another encyclopedia, something the world doesn't need.  The real goal of wikipedia should be to become what wiki techniques and philosophy can achieve when it "tries" to become an encyclopedia.  But it shouldn't try so hard that it abandons the wiki approach that makes it unique.

If wikipedia does not achieve true encyclopedia status and standards will it have a purpose?  I think it will at least have a niche and will provide information, not just about the subject of the articles, but about the people and the international cultural mileau that created it.  Many articles may never reach a static state,  but perhaps there is also information in a dynamic equilibrium, a perpetual edit war between two or more viewpoints. A lot of the unique information may also be in the histories or on the talk page.  There will be information about the strengths and weaknesses of the different viewpoints when viewed through each others filters and the filter of the artificial unachievable wikipedia standards.

I know if I were back in school, I would check wikipedia to supplement more traditional sources, and find it a more fertile source of ideas for papers and discussion, and perhaps crystalizing my own thinking.  A lot of the information on wikipedia may not be about the subjects of the articles but about the people and peoples that created them.

Yes, wikipedia may have to deal with vandals or the occasional rigid mind that refuses to acknowledge other positions, or the occasional dunce that can't recognize subteties, even when they are on his "side", but perhaps the best approach rather than compromising wiki principles would be patient, persistent dedication to the process rather than sweating the product or the failure to reach the ever distant "goal".

Perhaps, like existentialists who are not "true" believers, we should continue to "act" like believers, but can be  aware that we don't truly believe in the goals.  The process, they dynamic equilibrium and the edit wars, and the attempts to resolve them, are all the REAL goal, while we are following yonder star and tilting at windmills.
                         -- Silverback

-------------- Original message --------------
>
>
>
> --- Geoffrey Burling wrote:
>
> > After reading the various opinions expressed here about how to deal
> > with
> > the small number of controversial articles which -- sadly -- are in
>
>
> With all due respect, wikipedia already has too many rules. I suggest
> a much better policy: You fuck up an article, you clean it up. If you
> edit anywhere else before the article is nice and NPOV, you get a 3
> month ban.
>
> And I'm only half joking.
>
>
>
>
> =====
> Chris Mahan
> 818.943.1850 cell
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> chris.mahan at gmail.com
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: foundation-l

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
Neil Harris (usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk) [050211 03:18]:

> Just as with politics, there are many actual positions hidden behind
> people's ostensible positions. At the moment, we have a position where
> "yes, but only when we are happy", or even "yes, real soon now" actually
> mean "never". The key here is _breaking the deadlock_ of _indefinite_
> opposition to other Chinese language Wikipedias, by making supporters on
> both sides commit in advance to a value of N, and automatically
> triggering the change in policy when N is reached. Making people make
> _objective_ choices always clarifies their positions.

The thing is you're still presupposing that an existing wikipedia has a
right to block the existence of a new Wikipedia.

I ask the Board: is this the case?

- d.


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Sean Barrett

body:
NSK stated for the record:

> On Friday 11 February 2005 02:37, Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>>Showing ads for, for example, anti-patent groups, gives the idea that
>>Wikipedia supports these groups.
>
>
> There are anti-smoking, education, science/math or anti-discrimination ads,
> too. I think it would be safe to show these ads.

What makes you think we agree with anti-smoking, education, science/math
or anti-discrimination slogans?  The only slogan we support is "Free the
Encyclopedia!"

--
  Sean Barrett     | There is no snooze button on
  sean at epoptic.com | a cat who wants breakfast.


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikicite project pages (english versions only so
	far)

in_reply_to:
<d8fe25523c8b0ee466a8ed4903dfc9c3@xigenics.net> (Stirling
	Newberry's message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:37:36 -0500")

references:
<20050130182141.GI1091@thingy.apana.org.au>
	<385E2DBE-72F2-11D9-825E-000A95A26E0A@xigenics.net>
	<742dfd06050209022152aca5a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0502092041590.4094@sara.aronsson.se>
	<ec0ad950eaccfce75bf3b3a7a4de9205@xigenics.net>
	<420A92C3.5020904@telus.net>
	<b2434c87c229d998fd92597c190c368c@xigenics.net>
	<420B42DC.9040300@telus.net>
	<e8b00b281fca9a686f8d50d26981da46@xigenics.net>
	<shoeesdzt8.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<9a4b6b5b4ece1fc96dda422ff4636910@xigenics.net>
	<shekfodu7l.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<97db6974d7ecbc6f26150a4bf66838c8@xigenics.net>
	<shwttgcd22.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<d8fe25523c8b0ee466a8ed4903dfc9c3@xigenics.net>

body:
Stirling Newberry <stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> writes:

> What it doesn't come with is the actual data,

1/ you can import data from Z39.50 servers, esp. from the LoC if you
restrict yourself to limited number of datasets the day.

2/ I will happily feed the database once it is in place, and others will
do the same, I'm sure.

> nor are those annotations wiki editable, nor do the coordinate
> references in a structured way.

If the database is working in the background you can connect it with a
wiki.

Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> writes:

> "*rolls eyes*" and "*sigh*" are obviously very helpful and further a
> sense of mutual understanding.

Yes, those abbreviations can quickly lead to misunderstandings.

--
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                           |      ,__o
                                                        |    _-\_<,
                                                        |   (*)/'(*)
Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4  AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Template madness

body:
--- Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:

> I wish there was some way to get the stub _categories_ out of the
> main
> pages, though.

Same here.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject:
Wikipedia should be SECRETLY satisfied ( was Re: [WikiEN-l]
	Proposalfor a new policy

body:
<actionforum at comcast.net> wrote

>  The real goal of wikipedia should be to become what wiki techniques and
philosophy can achieve when it "tries" to become an encyclopedia.  But it
shouldn't try so hard that it abandons the wiki approach that makes it
unique.

Disagree/agree.  The goal of WP _is_ to become an encyclopedia.  The
encyclopedia functionality is central.  On the other hand the wiki aspect is
also central.  Those who want WP content but not the wiki side are free to
set up a fork- that might be a valid project, but would not be WP.

Pick your metaphor.  WP is an oasis of relative sanity on the Web, which
neither sells nor preaches.  WP is a hive, with a complex social scheme to
produce free honey.

Charles


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] Raulbot and sounds

body:
I just thought everyone would like to know:

With Avar's help, I wrote a unix command line script to upload files to
Wikipedia (specifically, it's designed for uploading to commons, but
it's trivial to target it at a different project)

Using wget to fetch whole websites, and oggasm to concode
them into oggs, and the upload script to send them, I've been
using a bot to throw large numbers of files onto commons.

You can see the results from the first run here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sound/list (Look for files contributed by Raulbot)
and
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Raul654

Not bad, huh? :)

A few things though. The next "victim" will be Oyez project, a project
that puts US Supreme Court recordings online. (Like the first site
I harvested, they're CC-by-SA).

I would like to see the upload limit on commons bumped up to 40 megs at least.
It's hard putting an entire SCOTUS argument file into 20 megs.

--Mark


from_name: pinco

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Il love you - in many languages

body:
Hi all,

please help me to understand what's wrong with
http://eo.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Mi_amas_vin ?

I wasn't able to do a good editing and nobody discuss the translations
in its "discussion" ('diskuto') page.

Many thanks to all.

Ciao,
Nino

Felix Wan ha scritto:

>On Wed, February 9, 2005 8:11 pm, Mark Williamson said:
>
>
>>I'm not so sure about that Stirling.
>>
>>In many contexts, yes, but as an independent sentence you would most
>>definitely say "wo ai ni", although you could potentially say "ai ni"
>>it's not as common.
>>
>>
>>
>A little bit more common than saying "Love you." in English in context.
>All regional varieties of Chinese are more pro-drop than English, but way
>less pro-drop than Japanese.
>
>On the other hand, "Aishiteru." is an independent sentence with the 1st
>person subject and 2nd person object implied, unless specified otherwise
>in context.  It is grammatical, common, and preferred.
>
>
>
>>I know that in Cantonese the phrase is "ngoh oi nei" - not sure of the
>>tones though.
>>
>>
>>
>Jyutping: Ngo5 oi3 nei5.
>Pitch contours: 13 33 13
>
>Felix Wan
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>
>

--
http://www.vessella.it (italiano, esperanto, kiswahili, english)
http://www.changamano.org (Iniziative di solidariet? per la Tanzania)
http://www.lernado.it (Articoli di quotidiani della Tanzania, Corso di lingua swahili, Corso di lingua esperanto, Vocabolario esperanto-italiano, Jifunze lugha ya Kiesperanto, Kamusi ya Kiesperanto)


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sin-chiaⁿ

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Sin-chia?-kh?ai-lo?k!
> Kiong-h?-hoat-ch?i, b?n-hok-l?m-l?i.
> S?-s?-?i-p?? li?n-chia?t-seng b?n-koe-khui-b? n?-n?-t?i-hoat.
>
> Chit-it-i?-li?n, s?ng-sim h?-g?an chiok ta?k-ke: i?ng-sin, i?-?
> ch?n-p?? i?-? hoat-ti?n i? s?ng-kong, sim-th?i-j?-kh?ai, b?n-s?-j?-?,
> tng-hoat-chh?i, ha?k-gia?p-b?ng-ch?n, th?i-p?ng-s?ng-t?i. M? h?-g?an
> chiok Tiong-h?a-g?-cho?k in-g?-gi?n ?i-ki-pekh-kho.
>
> Mark

Bonne ann?e du coq ! :o)

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org


from_name: NSK

body:
On Friday 11 February 2005 02:37, Mark Williamson wrote:
> Showing ads for, for example, anti-patent groups, gives the idea that
> Wikipedia supports these groups.

There are anti-smoking, education, science/math or anti-discrimination ads,
too. I think it would be safe to show these ads.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/


body:
On Friday 11 February 2005 05:05, Chad Perrin wrote:
> That was exactly my thought.  AdCouncil advertisements are very, very
> biased in many cases, and even misrepresent facts to support an agenda
> from time to time.  I'm not sure that's a good idea for Wikipedia.

Personally I don't know much about AdCouncil, I found it just some days
before, but I noticed some ads are very US-centric. However, as long as you
can choose which campaigns to show, this isn't a problem.

If you know any facts about AdCouncil biases, please send me an e-mail, just
to know.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/


list: textbook-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Textbook-l] Re: references

body:
Nod, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thanks :-)

Tomer Chachamu a ?crit:
> I myself have a scientific bias. Consider going to
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Book_of_the_month/March_2005_voting
> and http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Book_of_the_month/February_2005_voting
> and checking all the book liste there. :)
>
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:48:32 +0100, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>thanks. Mostly science then.
>>
>>About the wikijunior, it seems to me the solar system one is quite
>>advanced as well...
>


from_name: Michael Becker

subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia

body:
Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal
http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/
Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting
since it is being linked to by /.?
Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the community
informed of the facts.


body:
NSK wrote:

>On Friday 11 February 2005 05:05, Chad Perrin wrote:
>
>
>Personally I don't know much about AdCouncil, I found it just some days
>before, but I noticed some ads are very US-centric. However, as long as you
>can choose which campaigns to show, this isn't a problem.
>
>If you know any facts about AdCouncil biases, please send me an e-mail, just
>to know.
>

I wouldn't have a big problem with these ads as long as we link to a
NPOV wikipedia article about them in the ads that also includes
discussion of thier bias :) .


from_name: Delirium

subject:
Wikipedia should be SECRETLY satisfied ( was Re:
	[WikiEN-l]	Proposalfor a new policy

body:
Charles Matthews wrote:

>Disagree/agree.  The goal of WP _is_ to become an encyclopedia.  The
>encyclopedia functionality is central.  On the other hand the wiki aspect is
>also central.  Those who want WP content but not the wiki side are free to
>set up a fork- that might be a valid project, but would not be WP.
>
>
I agree with this, but for a sort of roundabout reason---the original,
and still pretty much the only real goal of Wikipedia is to produce a
good free-content encyclopedia.  The Wiki aspect is simply the way of
doing so that seems, so far, to have worked out the best (a model like
Nupedia, for example, seems like it would've required exponentially more
money to grow to a Wikipedia level of size and quality).  I do think
maintaining the "wikiness" is important, not really for its own sake,
but because it's the best way to ensure that we have a good encyclopedia
(and, increasingly, good textbooks, a good compendium of primary
sources, and so on).  IMO, if things were to become radically more
centralized and hierarchical, Wikipedia would become more and more like
an old-fashioned encyclopedia, and we already have some of those. =]

-Mark


body:
Michael Becker wrote:

> Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal
> http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/
> Could we update this page:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting since it is being linked
> to by /.?
> Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the
> community informed of the facts.

What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search
feature. =D

(Something like a more controllable version of "site:xx.wikipedia.org"
that distinguished namespaces would be sufficient.)

-Mark


from_name: Zigger

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: LocalSettings.php file not being created

body:
The later versions of 1.3 have security fixes, which are relevant if
you are sharing the servers.  I expect 1.3.10 to behave the same as
1.3.7, but no-one has explicitly tested it with the procedure and
updated the page yet.

The wiki-on-a-stick procedure sets the servers to local only, which
reduces the scope of threats considerably.

1.4beta6 also has security fixes, does not have the empty page bug,
and allows the Monobook skin to be used with PHP v5 (which is the
version in Uniform Server).

If you want to run 1.3, the patch for no display from configuration is
at  http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=736

If you did not get a LocalSettings.php file in the config folder, then
the error was different.  The procedure page has a trouble-shooting
section which describes the various logs available, some of which are
on by default.  If you can find an error message, please post it,
preferably to the mediawiki-l mailing list.  The freenode IRC channel
#mediawiki is also helpful sometimes.

-- Zigger


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Capitalisation on eo.wiktionary.org

body:
Does anybody know if capitalisation on the Esperanto wiktionary has been
taken of and if it is on UTF-8? As much as I know Gerard already
requested this in the chat (that strangely doesn't work on my computer).

Just to avoid doulble work.

Sorry for the message to all lists, but I'd like to start working on
that and therefore this is essential - I now tried and it seems as if
capitalisation is still on.

Thank you!!!

Ciao, Sabine


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Capitalisation on eo.wiktionary.org


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Template madness

body:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:23:07 +0000, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I still think we need an apology template of some kind pointing to the
> > talk page.
> I heartily agree with this suggestion. Delightfully simple. At a
> single move, articles are not cluttered by notices for editors, and
> the talk page can have as many templates and explanation as needed.

No - this is just as stupid as the current templates. There *is* no talk page
the great majority of our mirrors.

More self-referential crap that I will delete on sight.

-- mav

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Not nessecarily even that.

We are a free encyclopedia, yes, but wouldn't it be POV to support
such a slogan?

Mark

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:28:26 -0800, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> NSK stated for the record:
>
> > On Friday 11 February 2005 02:37, Mark Williamson wrote:
> >
> >>Showing ads for, for example, anti-patent groups, gives the idea that
> >>Wikipedia supports these groups.
> >
> >
> > There are anti-smoking, education, science/math or anti-discrimination ads,
> > too. I think it would be safe to show these ads.
>
> What makes you think we agree with anti-smoking, education, science/math
> or anti-discrimination slogans?  The only slogan we support is "Free the
> Encyclopedia!"
>
> --
>   Sean Barrett     | There is no snooze button on
>   sean at epoptic.com | a cat who wants breakfast.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject:
Wikipedia should be SECRETLY satisfied ( was Re: [WikiEN-l]
	Proposal for a new policy

body:
--- actionforum at comcast.net wrote:
> Don't sweat it so much.  Sure wikipedia has the "goal" of being an
> encyclopedia, but achieving that goal would be a disappointment, it would
> become just another encyclopedia, something the world doesn't need.  The
> real goal of wikipedia should be to become what wiki techniques and
> philosophy can achieve when it "tries" to become an encyclopedia.  But it
> shouldn't try so hard that it abandons the wiki approach that makes it
> unique.

Wiki is only a means to an end, not an end unto itself. Without a product,
there is no purpose in what we are doing. But by using the methods we have been
using, we have started to redefine what an encyclopedia *can* be when there are
no size limits.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


body:
--- Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search
> feature. =D

Only if it is free software.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Capitalisation of eo wiktionary

body:
I just wanted to let you know that the capitalisation of the eo
wiktionary is now off - so we can create articles the respect
upper/lowecase :-)

Ciao, Sabine


from_name: Stanislav Traykov

subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising: German Bank Account

body:
Hi,

I'll probably include the bank account of the German chapter in the
Bulgarian translation of the fundraising pages. (That's because PayPal
isn't available to most Bulgarian clients and a semi-cheap
intra-european wire transfer seems like a reasonable option for some
people.)

My questions:

a) Shall we use a different transfer purpose (Verwendungszweck) than
"Spende"?

b) Does it make any sense to ask donors to optionally add their address
to the Verwendungszweck, if they wish to receive a receipt? (Or is tax
deducibility for the e.V. not applicable outside Germany?).

c) Generally, are there any problems with this?

Thanks,
Stanislav


from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject: [WikiEN-l] Proposal for a new policy

body:
>--- Geoffrey Burling <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com> wrote:
>
>With all due respect, wikipedia already has too many rules. I suggest
>a much better policy: You fuck up an article, you clean it up. If you
>edit anywhere else before the article is nice and NPOV, you get a 3
>month ban.
>
>And I'm only half joking.

And when the person just leaves? Not everybody is obsessed with
editing. Besides, people can always make sockpuppets and work on other
articles.


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Mark Williamson (node.ue at gmail.com) [050211 11:41]:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:29:04 +1100, David Gerard
> <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> > Ron H (aceron99 at hotmail.com) [050210 13:09]:

> > > I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
> > > Wikimedia. Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of Tolkien.
> > > Other fictional languages, such as Klingon, already exist on Wikipedia. I
> > > speak passing Quenya. I have already prepared several articles, including
> > > one on constellations, and would like to add them to a quenya-language
> > > wiki.

> > I think we can all agree that Quenya should be created before we even
> > consider Cantonese.
> > ... no?

> I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic, and if you are, it's funny.
> But I just want to make sure... are you?

I cite the above as evidence of Commonwealth English being mutually
unintelligible with American English. For further proof, I will show
transcripts of British English users arguing politics with American
libertarians on #wikipedia. No way either can understand anything the
other is saying.

- d.


from_name: Felix Wan

body:
On Fri, February 11, 2005 9:41 am, Andre Engels said:
> As far as I understand, the current Wikipedia is supposed to be a
> _Chinese_ one, not a _Mandarin_ one.
>
> Andre Engels
>
>> Further argument against: there is no natural reason why someone whose
>> interest is captured by a Cantonese wikipedia should be forced to work
>> on a Mandarin one first.

Long story...

Suggested readings:
[[en:Chinese language]]
[[en:Chinese written language]]
[[en:Vernacular Chinese]]
[[en:Cantonese (linguistics)]]

In short, "standard written Chinese" has always been based on the Mandarin
vernacular.  Now there is a request to set up an encyclopedia based on the
Cantonese vernacular.  Although the latter has no official status, it has
a de facto writing system popular among Cantonese speakers in Hong Kong,
and is gaining popularity in Guangdong.

It is not possible to mix Cantonese and Mandarin writing in zh: like
American and British English in en: because those two regional speeches
of China do not enjoy equal status.  Written Cantonese will be considered
as substandard and corrected to conform with the vocabulary and grammar
of Mandarin, which some people call "standard and proper Chinese".

Even though I support the creation of a Cantonese Wikipedia, I will oppose
writing Cantonese in zh: for the obvious pragmatic reason: every literate
Cantonese speaker can read written Mandarin (standard Chinese), but the
reverse is not true.  Unfair, but that is the fact of life.

My primary concern is that everyone here understand the facts before
making the decision.  We live in a real world.  We may deny Cantonese
Wikipedia due to political, public relation, or pragmatic reasons, but
let's be honest and state the reason.  If we pretend that it is just
because the two writing systems are the same, people will come again and
again to demonstrate that they are different.

Felix Wan


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Proposal for a new policy

body:
Tomer Chachamu said:
>>--- Geoffrey Burling <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com> wrote:
>>
>>With all due respect, wikipedia already has too many rules. I suggest a
>>much better policy: You fuck up an article, you clean it up. If you
>>edit anywhere else before the article is nice and NPOV, you get a 3
>>month ban.
>>
>>And I'm only half joking.
>
> And when the person just leaves? Not everybody is obsessed with
> editing. Besides, people can always make sockpuppets and work on other
> articles.

Easy peasy.  We nominate that editor to be editor-in-chief of the article,
and another miscreant to be the chief exploder.  If the exploder suspects
the editor-in-chief of slacking or moonlighting, he selects a command
olist that explodes a bomb strapped to the head of the editor-in-chief,
and he then becomes the new editor-in-chief.


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>If there is a significant population of people who can not read/write
>standard written Chinese, but *can* read/write Cantonese in some
>writing system that is different, then I want to learn about that,
>because that would be a very compelling factor in the other direction.
>
>
Well, it shouldn't be necessary that they *can't* read/write standard
written Chinese, merely that they there's some significant population
that prefers another writing system.  We don't shut down the Irish
Wikipedia just because nearly all Irish speakers can also speak English
(and in fact a large majority speak primarily English)---the fact that
there are people who can read/write Irish and wish to do so is sufficient.

-Mark


body:
So this means you believe a Cantonese Wikipedia will have no users and
will not be sustainable?

You're sure changing your tune fast. A minute ago, it was "My pet
project will lose resources!!!", but when you saw that didn't go over
too well with anybody you change it to "I feel deeply for these
people, and my primary concern is that they'll be lonely and I think
their minds are being controlled by Mark."

You should be more worried about sustainability of Wikipedias which
have few people committed to using them, not something which has a few
people committed to it like this proposal.

If I recall correctly, zh.wikipedia's history does not involve having
the interface translated and a critical mass of people and articles
/before/ the creation of the subdomain, and even when articles started
to be created this was hardly true at first.

And just because you have relatives who speak five Chinese dialects
doesn't mean you can't be a linguistic imperialist.

Stalin, the master of linguistic imperialism, came from a
Georgian-speaking family.

Mark

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:50:34 +0800, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:03:45 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
> <felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> >
> > Even though I support the creation of a Cantonese Wikipedia, I will oppose
> > writing Cantonese in zh: for the obvious pragmatic reason: every literate
> > Cantonese speaker can read written Mandarin (standard Chinese), but the
> > reverse is not true.  Unfair, but that is the fact of life.
> >
> > My primary concern is that everyone here understand the facts before
> > making the decision.  We live in a real world.  We may deny Cantonese
> > Wikipedia due to political, public relation, or pragmatic reasons, but
> > let's be honest and state the reason.  If we pretend that it is just
> > because the two writing systems are the same, people will come again and
> > again to demonstrate that they are different.
>
> The community should nurture folks starting a new Wikipedia in a
> different dialect/language, as long as there is a critical mass of
> people, articles and interface translation. Again, my main concern has
> always been that a wiki with one person can be a lonely place. For
> example around SE Asia, I've been evangelizing for the smaller
> Wikipedias. Some have been successful, such as Malay, but sadly others
> have not, like Khmer (Cambodia).
>
> Let's reframe this discussion not as the desire to "deny" a Wikipedia,
> but rather a way to be good stewards of new Wikipedias and launch them
> in good stead. The problem I have is in language enthusiasts (ie.
> Mark) encouraging the creation of new Wikipedias left-and-right just
> to get another notch on the post without regard to sustainability.
> Remember this is not an either/or proposition - folks can work on zh:
> and work on a dialect-specific version as well.
>
> The honest dialogue is welcome given the bizarre sensational comments
> such as "eventually under increasing pressure from linguistic
> imperialists like Andrew, local Chinese vernaculars will be gone
> completely."
>
> As there are five Chinese dialects represented among my immediate
> relatives, I got a chuckle out of it.
>
> -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Zoney

subject: [WikiEN-l] Template madness

body:
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 01:56:07 +0000, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> One option would be to put the majority of
> tags on talk pages. In fact everything except an apology notice
> (something along the lines of "it has come to our attention that this
> page is below our normal standards. We apologise this and hope the
> problem will be fixed soon. If you think you can fix this yourself
> please click here"

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:23:07 +0000, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> I still think we need an apology template of some kind pointing to the
> talk page.
>
> --
> geni

I heartily agree with this suggestion. Delightfully simple. At a
single move, articles are not cluttered by notices for editors, and
the talk page can have as many templates and explanation as needed.

Why shouldn't we do this?

About the only other issue would be that maybe two or three grades of
severity of "apology" would be needed. I.E.:
*  "It has been suggested that this articles has *major flaws*, see talk page."
*  "It has been suggested that this article has /issues needed to be
resolved/, see talk page."
*  "It has been suggested that this article is /below-average/. See
talk page for issues."
*  "It has been suggested that this article may need further work. See
talk page for improvement suggestions."

Text size could be largest for the first notice and decrease - with
the last notice much smaller than the "Major flaws" one.

Zoney

--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis

body:
Joe wrote:
> I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m
> sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it.
>
> I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the
> Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews.

For those not familiar with Shavian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet

It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language,
developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard
Shaw's will.

While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for
writing English.

> I'm not sure
> this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English
> spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer).

Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of
hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects
will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities --
http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got
moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.)

 >  But such
> considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or
> Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try.

Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual
people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to
this day it's unclear what its intended mission is.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis

body:
Joe wrote:
> I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m
> sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it.
>
> I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the
> Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews.

For those not familiar with Shavian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet

It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language,
developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard
Shaw's will.

While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for
writing English.

> I'm not sure
> this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English
> spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer).

Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of
hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects
will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities --
http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got
moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.)

 >  But such
> considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or
> Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try.

Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual
people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to
this day it's unclear what its intended mission is.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis

body:
Joe wrote:
> I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m
> sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it.
>
> I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the
> Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews.

For those not familiar with Shavian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet

It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language,
developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard
Shaw's will.

While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for
writing English.

> I'm not sure
> this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English
> spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer).

Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of
hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects
will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities --
http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got
moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.)

 >  But such
> considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or
> Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try.

Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual
people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to
this day it's unclear what its intended mission is.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis

body:
Joe wrote:
> I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m
> sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it.
>
> I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the
> Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews.

For those not familiar with Shavian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet

It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language,
developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard
Shaw's will.

While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for
writing English.

> I'm not sure
> this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English
> spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer).

Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of
hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects
will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities --
http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got
moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.)

 >  But such
> considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or
> Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try.

Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual
people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to
this day it's unclear what its intended mission is.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 06:02:20 +0800, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:31:09 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So this means you believe a Cantonese Wikipedia will have no users and
> > will not be sustainable?
> >
> > You're sure changing your tune fast. A minute ago, it was "My pet
> > project will lose resources!!!", but when you saw that didn't go over
> > too well with anybody you change it to "I feel deeply for these
> > people, and my primary concern is that they'll be lonely and I think
> > their minds are being controlled by Mark."
>
> As usual, wild exaggerations by Mark. Please find a quote or a pointer
> to anything I've said that resembles "My pet project will lose
> resources!!!"  It's getting tired.

They're not meant to be quote-quotes. And they're not exaggerations. "

To me, that means encouraging most of the labour towards making a
"Mandarin" Wikipedia. As a side effect, Wikipedia can be an experiment
in Internet democracy or a way to preserve/promote languages. But the
primary goal should be to write an encyclopedia.

One done in Mandarin will benefit over 1 billion people who simply
don't have a good free encyclopedia, in both senses of the word - free
as in beer, and free as in freedom. The faster we get there, the
better. And I don't think that's a selfish notion.", I simply quoted
it as Alex Kwan characterised it.

I just love how you try to say "Alex Kwan, speakers of Cantonese and
Wu, I am right, you should side with me because Mark is giving you
delusions", basically.

> > If I recall correctly, zh.wikipedia's history does not involve having
> > the interface translated and a critical mass of people and articles
> > /before/ the creation of the subdomain, and even when articles started
> > to be created this was hardly true at first.
>
> I think it was a pretty safe bet that the language of 1 billion
> speakers would be started sooner than later. Also, zh: was started in
> October 2002 by Mountain who drove the development of Unicode support
> in Wikipedia. So this is beyond critical mass - it was leadership in
> the whole WP project.

The difference here is that there are already language-speaking
supporters PRIOR to subdomain creation. And I don't see how leadership
in the whole WP project has _anything_ to do with critical mass of
articles and users.

 > > And just because you have relatives who speak five Chinese dialects
> > doesn't mean you can't be a linguistic imperialist.
>
> <groan>

Hey, it's true.

> > Stalin, the master of linguistic imperialism, came from a
> > Georgian-speaking family.
>
> You're on the verge of realizing Godwin's Law.

No, not really. You seem to misunderstand Godwin's law. Stalin was a
linguistic imperialist. He made drastic changes to Soviet linguistic
policy with the intention to quash regional languages, including the
Georgian of his family and his schoolfriends. His birthname was
actually "Iosep Jugashvili", a very Georgian name. If Stalin can be a
linguistic imperialist on such a massive scale working against the
language of his hearth, surely you can be a linguistic imperialist on
a much more minor scale without your family exempting you from such
accusations.

Mark


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers
	to	Wikipedia

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to
> add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear
> official as soon as WE report them.

How are they rumors?  The information removed was reported on the
official Wikipedia Foundation mailing list, which is public.  As the
blog in question points out, the fact that there was a meeting between
Jimbo and Google representatives was reported by you [1], and the fact
that Google has tentatively agreed to give access to servers and
bandwidth was reported by mav [2].

-Mark

[1]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002185.html
[2]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002181.html


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit :
> Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal
> http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/
> Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting
> since it is being linked to by /.?

Done, but you could have done it yourself.
It's a wiki, you know... ;o)

> Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the community
> informed of the facts.

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


body:
On Fri, February 11, 2005 4:18 pm, Anthere said:
> Hello Felix
>
> Out of curiosity, do we know how many editors would currently
> actively work on the cantonese langage ?
>
> Ant
>
Actually I have no idea.

Someone invited me to support the creation of zh-wuu (Shanghainese)
Wikipedia, and I found the proposal of Cantonese Wikipedia on the same
page on Meta <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages>,
so I supported both.  Then I learned about the opposition in the mailing
list and joined the discussion.  I never expected that I need to be so
vocal here, almost taking a leading role.

Someone signed on Meta.  There are some support beside opposition in the
mailing list.  Alex Kwan on this list edited my introduction to the test
site: <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-WP/zh-yue> with an anonymous
IP.  We can expect him to contribute more when he is back from vacation.

While I am writing this email, I just discovered that I had forgotten
to "Save page" after "Show preview" when I added link to the test site.
If number of editors or whether a project can be sustained is the only
issue, I think a test site should be a good indicator of potential
support of any new language project.

You may also want to review the thread "Wikipedia in Chinese dialects",
where I proposed writing 3 good articles of medium length and 20 good
stubs in any new language.  They will also serve to test the hypothesis
that written Mandarin and written Cantonese are the same, or are too
similar to deserve a separate project.

People may still disagree, but at least that will be better than arguments
without any backup.

Felix Wan


from_name: Joe

subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis

body:
I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m
sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it.

I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the
Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews.  I'm not sure
this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English
spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer).  But such
considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or
Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try.

I want to verify before discussing this in mind-numbing detail (putting
everyone to sleep) that I am indeed in the right place and that there can
perhaps be some consideration for Shavian on Wikimedia.  I can assure you
that the support is there, and Shavian users can be expected to use and edit
Wikis in Shavian when possible.

Regards,
Joe


subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to
	Wikipedia

body:
Yann Forget a ?crit:
> Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit :
>
>>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal
>>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/
>>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting
>>since it is being linked to by /.?
>
>
> Done, but you could have done it yourself.
> It's a wiki, you know... ;o)

Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to
add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official
as soon as WE report them.

Whether these rumors are correct or not correct is irrelevant. For now,
the only people aware of the details are the members of the board (in
particular Jimbo, Angela and myself), and Google decision makers. And
these details are still confidential.


from_name: Andre Engels

body:
As far as I understand, the current Wikipedia is supposed to be a
_Chinese_ one, not a _Mandarin_ one.

Andre Engels

> Further argument against: there is no natural reason why someone whose
> interest is captured by a Cantonese wikipedia should be forced to work on a
> Mandarin one first.


from_name: Leon Weber

subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia

body:
>What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search
>feature. =D

They will put a search feature on their website, i am sure. I think that
Google donates to us because MSN has the encarta-searc and so Google needs
something, too.

Leon


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 19, Issue 29

body:
Pete/Pcb21 (pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com) [050211 09:45]:
> David Gerard wrote:

> >Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:POINT is mandatory reading in this
> >matter. Every example listed there actually happened.

> A fine and noble policy, obviously. My only query - why is it classified
> under this peculiar "semi-policy" name. As a piece of common sense, it
> has been policy since the start of the project, by calling it
> "semi-policy" (which seems a bit likely something is "slightly unique")
> we asking for some troll to come and muck us around and then say "but
> its not official policy".

It wasn't ratified as official enforceable policy. It's a guideline,
really. ("Guidelines" being for those with a clue, "policy", e.g. 3RR,
being more mechanically appliable. Or something.) However, the Arbitration
Committee has endorsed it a few times now, so we'll call it a *strong*
guideline.

- d.


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [Wikipedia-l] NYTimes.com: Google may host encyclopedia project

body:
Check out http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting and
its talk page. The best line in talk is the first post:
"I, for one, welcome our new Google overlords".

:-)

Stan

rose.parks at att.net wrote:

>This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net.
>
>Hi, Is it possible that no one saw this yesterday in the Times? As Ever, Ruth Ifcher
>
>
>TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005
>
>Google may host encyclopedia project
>Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com
>
>The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers.
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070
>
>
>
>----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
>
>
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>

>/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

>
>ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE
>

>SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress.  Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

>
>http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html
>
>

>
>
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>
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>ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
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>
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>
>Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Template madness

body:
--- Zoney <zoney.ie at gmail.com> wrote:
> The point is that the current templates are often instructions to editors.

That is what talk pages and edit comments are for.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com


list: commons-l

from_name: David Blomstrom

subject: [Commons-l] Image Permission (Location Maps)

body:
Wikipedia uses a series of location maps on articles about the states,
like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming - the the map on the right
side of the page, just below the state flag and seal.

It sounds like I'm allowed to use these images on my website as long as
I include the proper credit. The only problem is the credits are awfully
long for images this small; I don't want to insert a big credit on each
page.

So I wanted to ask if these maps belong to Wikipedia in the first
place...or are they public domain?

Incidentally, I will be linking my pags to Wikipedia; in fact, I already
have.

Thank you.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Template madness

body:
--- geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> So? Most of our mirrors run various bots to remove stuff so I wont be
> a problem for them to remove this. There is also the issue that our
> mirrors have very different aims to us.

They have to do that because there is so much self-referential nonsense.
Instead of adding to the work they need to do, we should at least try not to
increase it.

Oh, and the two most common ways I see third party users do this is to replace
every instance of 'Wikipedia' with their site's name or they just don't display
any templates.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikipedia-l] public service ads in Wikipedia?

body:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:53:55 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> On Friday 11 February 2005 20:21, Mark Williamson wrote:
> > We are a free encyclopedia, yes, but wouldn't it be POV to support
> > such a slogan?
>
> Oh yes, it certainly would be POV: Users still need to pay for Internet
> connection costs to read Wikipedia! As long as you don't pay for your
> readers' connections you cannot claim to be a truly free encyclopedia.
>
> NPOV extremism at its best! ;-)

Or your misunderstanding of what is meant with 'free' at its best,
it's free as in freedom not free as in price (though it just happens
to be as a side-effect.).

>
> --
> NSK
> http://portal.wikinerds.org
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Template madness

body:
--- Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> My own working assumption is that writing 'Wikipedia' in Wiki-en's main name
> space is only acceptable if replacing it anywhere it occurs by 'this
> encyclopedia' makes good sense.

There still are issues of self-reference and adding meta data to content. But
this may be a good idea for a very limited set of meta templates that we really
can't work well without.

-- mav

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nofollow

body:
In case you aren't aware of it, a vote is taking place at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Nofollow regarding the use of
"rel=nofollow" in the XHTML generated for external links on the
English Wikipedia. This attribute causes Google to ignore the link
when it crawls a website. Kate stated in #mediawiki that the
developers would respect the results (either for or against attribute
use) of a project poll, so vote on the matter if you are so inclined.
Remember that the results of this poll will only affect the English
Wikipedia.

--Slowking Man


from_name: rose.parks at worldnet.att.net

subject: [Wikipedia-l] NYTimes.com: The Unassociated Press

body:
This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at worldnet.att.net.

Hi, Is it possible that no one else saw this article in the N.Y. Times? As Ever, Ruth Ifcher

TECHNOLOGY / CIRCUITS | February 10, 2005

The Unassociated Press
By AARON WEISS

Wikinews, an experiment in collaborative news gathering, is gaining in popularity. But the central question about the Wikinews effort is its credibility.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/10/technology/circuits/10wiki.html?ex=1108789200&en=7114f995abf3ad92&ei=5070

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress.  Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html

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body:
This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at worldnet.att.net.

Hi again, And then there was this in today's Times. As Ever, Ruth Ifcher

TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005

Google may host encyclopedia project
Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com

The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers.

http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress.  Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

0

----------------------------------------------------------

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This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.

NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company


body:
Le Friday 11 February 2005 18:05, Anthere a ?crit :
> Yann Forget a ?crit:
> > Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit :
> >>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal
> >>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/
> >>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting
> >>since it is being linked to by /.?
> >
> > Done, but you could have done it yourself.
> > It's a wiki, you know... ;o)
>
> Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to
> add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official
> as soon as WE report them.

Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing list, not
"rumors from the Internet".

> Whether these rumors are correct or not correct is irrelevant. For now,
> the only people aware of the details are the members of the board (in
> particular Jimbo, Angela and myself), and Google decision makers. And
> these details are still confidential.

But agreed that's better to keep quiet about this issue for now.

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: rose.parks at att.net

subject: [Foundation-l] NYTimes.com: Google may host encyclopedia project

body:
This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net.

Hi, Is it possible that no one saw this yesterday in the Times? As Ever, Ruth Ifcher

TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005

Google may host encyclopedia project
Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com

The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers.

http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress.  Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

0

----------------------------------------------------------

ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.

NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company


subject: [WikiEN-l] NYTimes.com: Google may host encyclopedia project


body:
This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net.

Hi, And, then, today, the Times published this: As Ever, Ruth Ifcher

TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005

Google may host encyclopedia project
Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com

The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers.

http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress.  Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

0

----------------------------------------------------------

ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.

NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company


subject: [Foundation-l] NYTimes.com: The Unassociated Press

body:
This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net.

Apologies... This is the first article from Thursday's Times. As Ever, Ruth Ifcher

TECHNOLOGY / CIRCUITS | February 10, 2005

The Unassociated Press
By AARON WEISS

Wikinews, an experiment in collaborative news gathering, is gaining in popularity. But the central question about the Wikinews effort is its credibility.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/10/technology/circuits/10wiki.html?ex=1108789200&en=7114f995abf3ad92&ei=5070

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress.  Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html

----------------- Advertisement --------------------------

0

----------------------------------------------------------

ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.

NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company


subject: [WikiEN-l] NYTimes.com: The Unassociated Press


from_name: NSK

body:
On Friday 11 February 2005 20:21, Mark Williamson wrote:
> We are a free encyclopedia, yes, but wouldn't it be POV to support
> such a slogan?

Oh yes, it certainly would be POV: Users still need to pay for Internet
connection costs to read Wikipedia! As long as you don't pay for your
readers' connections you cannot claim to be a truly free encyclopedia.

NPOV extremism at its best! ;-)

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

> Elves, Klingons, etc, do not exist.  They never did exist.  There is no
> such thing as elvish culture; Tolkien made it all up.  I believe the only
> recorded attempt to raise a child bilingual in Klingon was terminated by
> the child at the age of five; I'm unaware of any attempts to raise
> children bilingual in Quenya, Sindarin, Orcish or any other fictional
> Middle Earth language, but would expect that they'd have a similar
> outcome.  I don't have any objection in principle to groups producing
> their own encyclopedias in any language, but when it comes to spending
> Wikipedia Foundation money I hope it will be used to cover the languages
> of living humans in preference to languages of interest only to fans,
> hobbyists and linguists.
>

Apparently, this particular email didn't get deleted when I was done
with it.  As such, it sat in my inbox, already read and forgotten for a
few days.  Sifting through email, I found it again, and suddenly I'm
struck by a thought:

If we were going to create a(nother) Middle Earth language Wikipedia, it
wouldn't be Quenya that I'd want.  I'd want Orcish, personally.

Of course, I realize how ludicrous that is.  There isn't even a recorded
Orcish language, as far as I'm aware.  As such, I must in good
conscience oppose the idea of creating a bunch of Middle Earth language
Wikipedias.  Such is life.

Orcish would just be too cool, though. . . .

--
Chad


from_name: Stephen Forrest

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:21:18 -0500, Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:

> If we were going to create a(nother) Middle Earth language Wikipedia, it
> wouldn't be Quenya that I'd want.  I'd want Orcish, personally.
>
> Of course, I realize how ludicrous that is.  There isn't even a recorded
> Orcish language, as far as I'm aware.

As I recall, there was no one language: Orcs just grabbed random
fragments of nearby human languages and used them.  The exception
would be Sauron's Black Speech, a consistency 'imposed from above',
the language of the famous "One ring..." poem.

> Orcish would just be too cool, though. . . .

Funny enough, I was just reading the Appendices just last week, and
was moved enough by the following fragment to transcribe it from the
printed copy.  (Apologies in advance for the frivolity of posting this
here.)

"But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or
things; and their language was actually more degraded than I have
shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering,
though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still
be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and
contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour,
save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong." ?
J. R. R. Tolkien, Appendix F, The Lord of the Rings

Steve


from_name: Josh Gerdes

subject: [Commons-l] Re: Image Permission (Location Maps)

body:
Yes, you must include the proper credits, at least for those who
modified the pictures from the public domain original. According to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:U.S._county_map, those images
were created by Eric Pierce
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wapcaplet) and James D. Forrester
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jdforrester). I believe that in this
case, crediting the two authors and linking to the Wikipedia article
should be sufficient. It would also be polite, though not legally
necessary, to credit the creator of the original public domain image,
The General Libraries of The University of Texas at Austin
(http://www.lib.utexas.edu). However, you should probably read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights#Users.27_rights_and_obligations
for more details.

Josh Gerdes
[[en:User:JoshG]]

David Blomstrom wrote:
> Wikipedia uses a series of location maps on articles about the states,
> like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming - the the map on the right
> side of the page, just below the state flag and seal.
>
> It sounds like I'm allowed to use these images on my website as long as
> I include the proper credit. The only problem is the credits are awfully
> long for images this small; I don't want to insert a big credit on each
> page.
>
> So I wanted to ask if these maps belong to Wikipedia in the first
> place...or are they public domain?
>
> Incidentally, I will be linking my pags to Wikipedia; in fact, I already
> have.
>
> Thank you.


body:
Yes, you must include the proper credits, at least for those who
modified the pictures from the public domain original. According to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:U.S._county_map, those images
were created by Eric Pierce
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wapcaplet) and James D. Forrester
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jdforrester). I believe that in this
case, crediting the two authors and linking to the Wikipedia article
should be sufficient. It would also be polite, though not legally
necessary, to credit the creator of the original public domain image,
The General Libraries of The University of Texas at Austin
(http://www.lib.utexas.edu). However, you should probably read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights#Users.27_rights_and_obligations

for more details.

Josh Gerdes
[[en:User:JoshG]]

David Blomstrom wrote:
> Wikipedia uses a series of location maps on articles about the states,
> like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming - the the map on the right
> side of the page, just below the state flag and seal.
>
> It sounds like I'm allowed to use these images on my website as long as
> I include the proper credit. The only problem is the credits are awfully
> long for images this small; I don't want to insert a big credit on each
> page.
>
> So I wanted to ask if these maps belong to Wikipedia in the first
> place...or are they public domain?
>
> Incidentally, I will be linking my pags to Wikipedia; in fact, I already
> have.
>
> Thank you.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Toki Pona

body:
Chad Perrin wrote:
> I'm not looking to launch a Toki Pona Wikipedia (yet), but all this
> discussion of various languages, their (non)widespread use, and so on
> has raised in my mind some questions.  First off, I was wondering if
> anyone has any experience or data that gives an idea of how widespread
> Toki Pona use is, and secondly, I was wondering if there would be any
> particular opposition to a Toki Pona Wikipedia if (as a purely
> hypothetical example) five or six fluent speakers raised the issue here.

I assume you're new here; a Toki Pona Wikipedia was established last
year, and after some months and much discussion was moved to Wikicities:
http://tokipona.wikicities.com/

You can pull up prior mailing list discussion on the subject via a
google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:mail.wikipedia.org+%22toki+pona%22

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Stephen Forrest wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:21:18 -0500, Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
>
>
>>If we were going to create a(nother) Middle Earth language Wikipedia, it
>>wouldn't be Quenya that I'd want.  I'd want Orcish, personally.
>>
>>Of course, I realize how ludicrous that is.  There isn't even a recorded
>>Orcish language, as far as I'm aware.
>
>
> As I recall, there was no one language: Orcs just grabbed random
> fragments of nearby human languages and used them.  The exception
> would be Sauron's Black Speech, a consistency 'imposed from above',
> the language of the famous "One ring..." poem.
>
>
>>Orcish would just be too cool, though. . . .
>
>
> Funny enough, I was just reading the Appendices just last week, and
> was moved enough by the following fragment to transcribe it from the
> printed copy.  (Apologies in advance for the frivolity of posting this
> here.)
>
> "But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or
> things; and their language was actually more degraded than I have
> shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering,
> though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still
> be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and
> contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour,
> save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong." ?
> J. R. R. Tolkien, Appendix F, The Lord of the Rings
>

There's a definite set of universal Or(c|k)ish terms, though.  For
instance, "waaaaaaaaaaaargh" is understood by Orcish peoples everywhere.

I vote for ork: as the linguistic code for Orcish.

Okay, I'm going to shut up about this horribly, badly off-topic subject now.

--
Chad


from_name: MilchFlasche瑋平

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:09:55 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:06:23 -0800 (PST), Christopher Mahan
> <chris_mahan at yahoo.com > wrote:

> > Obviously not expert enough. Ask the Chinese embassy for an official
> > statement.
>
> The Chinese embassy will tell you many things, including "There is
> only one Chinese language" and "Taiwan is a province of China". They
> may both be true in the mind of PRC and the UN, but they're certainly
> not based on reality.
>
Exactly. Thanks Mark. On this issue the last part we should trust is
Chinese government. Asking political authorities for informational
help sounds quite inutile, especially a government which is used to
control academics and re-writing history.

> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
2005, make signs happen!


subject: [Wikitech-l] what happened to en db download?

body:
RedWolf wrote:
> The download db site was updated on February 9 but en is not listed.
> What gives?

Due to a problem with the dump process, the English and German wikipedia
dumps didn't get split into smaller files or checksummed. The download
page script is a little quirky and paranoid and doesn't listed them
because they don't appear in the checksum file.

You should be able to grab these dumps directly from:
http://download.wikimedia.org/archives/en/
http://download.wikimedia.org/archives/de/

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Mark Williamson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
Hi Anthere,

Of course there is no way to know for sure, but so far we have
received expressions of interest from Alex Kwan, who is already an
outstanding member of the zh: and en: communities, and Felix Wan, who
appears to be very much interested in this idea.

There are quite a few others who have expressed support on the meta:
page, but I'm not sure 1) how many are real people, 2) how many
actually speak Cantonese, and 3) how many would actually edit the new
Wikipedia.

Of course these problems are involved in the creation of any new
Wikipedia, and look how many Wikipedias we now have with good article
bases.

For example, the Limburgish Wikipedia, which just a month ago was on
the list of Wikipedias proposed to be closed because of inactivity
with 0 pages and little content in Limburgish, now has at least 171
pages due to a sudden and explosive growth in contributors, especially
Guaka and HaafLimbo.

The Aragonese Wikipedia, which although it had 30 or 40 pages a month
ago, was inactive and a member of my "inactive Wikipedias" list that I
check for vandalism, with only a couple of edits every month. Now, it
has nearly 500 pages.

In the space of a very short time, the Luxemburgish Wikipedia went
from nonexistant to over 1000 articles.

This is not to say that we should just create new subdomains left and
right without any prospect of sustainability.

Rather, I believe that instead of requiring 5 users or an interface
translation to start a new Wikipedia, we should require only 1 user -
a fluent speaker - who will respond to e-mails (some requesters of new
languages just float off into space never to be heard from again).

Thus, while the prospect for it being abandoned still exists, it is
still much less likely than just creating all requested Wikipedias.
The reason I don't think we need such stringent requirements as have
been proposed is simple: Empty Wikipedias eventually begin to fill up.

There are those who would complain about having to clean up after
vandals (and even a user who posted English-language articles on the
American Civil War to dz: a couple of weeks ago!), but this is no
longer a concern due to my constant monitoring of a list of 118
inactive Wikipedias, which has been going on for a couple of months
now.

When these Wikipedias begin to grow, I keep them on the list a bit
longer to make sure it's not just temporary growth, and then I remove
them (thus, I have not yet removed the Aragonese or Limburgish
Wikipedias, but I will soon). So far it has proven a successful
preventative for vandalism, although new pages created by vandals
continue to exist.

So as long as there is a somewhat-reasonable expectation that a
Wikipedia will begin to grow immediately, I don't believe we need to
over-worry about having heaps of participants.

Mark

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:18:19 +0100, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello Felix
>
> Out of curiosity, do we know how many editors would currently actively
> work on the cantonese langage ?
>
> Ant
>
> Felix Wan a ?crit:
> > On Fri, February 11, 2005 9:41 am, Andre Engels said:
> >
> >>As far as I understand, the current Wikipedia is supposed to be a
> >>_Chinese_ one, not a _Mandarin_ one.
> >>
> >>Andre Engels
> >>
> >>
> >>>Further argument against: there is no natural reason why someone whose
> >>>interest is captured by a Cantonese wikipedia should be forced to work
> >>>on a Mandarin one first.
> >>
> >
> > Long story...
> >
> > Suggested readings:
> > [[en:Chinese language]]
> > [[en:Chinese written language]]
> > [[en:Vernacular Chinese]]
> > [[en:Cantonese (linguistics)]]
> >
> > In short, "standard written Chinese" has always been based on the Mandarin
> > vernacular.  Now there is a request to set up an encyclopedia based on the
> > Cantonese vernacular.  Although the latter has no official status, it has
> > a de facto writing system popular among Cantonese speakers in Hong Kong,
> > and is gaining popularity in Guangdong.
> >
> > It is not possible to mix Cantonese and Mandarin writing in zh: like
> > American and British English in en: because those two regional speeches
> > of China do not enjoy equal status.  Written Cantonese will be considered
> > as substandard and corrected to conform with the vocabulary and grammar
> > of Mandarin, which some people call "standard and proper Chinese".
> >
> > Even though I support the creation of a Cantonese Wikipedia, I will oppose
> > writing Cantonese in zh: for the obvious pragmatic reason: every literate
> > Cantonese speaker can read written Mandarin (standard Chinese), but the
> > reverse is not true.  Unfair, but that is the fact of life.
> >
> > My primary concern is that everyone here understand the facts before
> > making the decision.  We live in a real world.  We may deny Cantonese
> > Wikipedia due to political, public relation, or pragmatic reasons, but
> > let's be honest and state the reason.  If we pretend that it is just
> > because the two writing systems are the same, people will come again and
> > again to demonstrate that they are different.
> >
> > Felix Wan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Interesingly enough, Tolkien's words echo those words of people
speaking of minority languages.

According to them, Sardinian is like monkeys mimicking Latin,
Penobscot is just primitive babbling resembling the cries of an ape,
Welsh is horrendously primitive-sounding, Manx is filled with hatred
and contempt...

Mark

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:42:56 -0500, Stephen Forrest
<stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:21:18 -0500, Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
>
> > If we were going to create a(nother) Middle Earth language Wikipedia, it
> > wouldn't be Quenya that I'd want.  I'd want Orcish, personally.
> >
> > Of course, I realize how ludicrous that is.  There isn't even a recorded
> > Orcish language, as far as I'm aware.
>
> As I recall, there was no one language: Orcs just grabbed random
> fragments of nearby human languages and used them.  The exception
> would be Sauron's Black Speech, a consistency 'imposed from above',
> the language of the famous "One ring..." poem.
>
> > Orcish would just be too cool, though. . . .
>
> Funny enough, I was just reading the Appendices just last week, and
> was moved enough by the following fragment to transcribe it from the
> printed copy.  (Apologies in advance for the frivolity of posting this
> here.)
>
> "But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or
> things; and their language was actually more degraded than I have
> shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering,
> though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still
> be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and
> contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour,
> save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong." ?
> J. R. R. Tolkien, Appendix F, The Lord of the Rings
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Commons transfer script

body:
What follows is the script asked for on [1]. Well, mostly. As this is my
very first Python script that actually performs a useful function, I
couldn't get it to work as a logged-in user. Maybe someone else has
better luck. I'm too tired now.

Magnus

[1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Transfer_script

--------------------------

import httplib
import urllib
import md5

class AppURLopener(urllib.FancyURLopener):
     def __init__(self, *args):
         self.version = "Mozilla/4.0"
         urllib.FancyURLopener.__init__(self, *args)

def imagetocommons ( language , imagenamespace , image ) :
     server = 'http://' + language + '.wikipedia.org'
     url = server + '/wiki/' + imagenamespace + ':' + image ;
     srcurl = server + '/w/wiki.phtml?title=' + imagenamespace + ':' +
image + '&action=raw' ;

     # Loading image description into source
     urllib._urlopener = AppURLopener()
     sock = urllib.urlopen ( srcurl ) ;
     source = sock.read()
     sock.close()

     # Loading the image
     md = md5.md5(image).hexdigest()
     imageurl = 'http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/' + language +
'/' + md[:1] + '/'+ md[:2] + '/' + image ;
     localimage = image ; # For now...
     x = urllib.urlretrieve ( imageurl , localimage )
     localimage = x[0]

     # POST command
     uploadurl = 'http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload'
     params = urllib.urlencode({'wpUploadFile': localimage,
'wpUploadDescription': 'Via script from ' + language , 'wpUploadAffirm':
1, 'wpUpload':1})
     postit = urllib.urlopen ( uploadurl , params )
     print postit.read()
     postit.close()

imagetocommons ( "en" , "Image" , "GlassofGuinness.jpg" ) # Testing...


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> I somehow doubt that Google, a publicly-traded company with very
> secretive management, wants to do this because they feel it's their
> duty.

It's good publicity, and if that helps get people to use their search
engine and other services they make money from extra ad hits on their
search engine and other services. Not exactly rocket science here, folks.

> What worries me is that the final say rests with a small-but-trusted
> group of individuals, not with the community. This is the trouble of
> our switch from a complete democracy to a not-so-representative
> democracy (only two of the board members were elected) - we have to
> trust that these people will be gentle with our future.

Prior to the board elections, there were *ZERO* community-elected people
with direct, legal say in the actual operation of the project. None at
all. Now there are two. Two is more than zero, not less.

Perhaps you don't remember, but before there was a legally incorporated,
not-for-profit Wikimedia Foundation, Wikipedia and related projects were
in fact a side project operated purely at the whim of Jimmy Wales and
his for-profit company, Bomis, Inc.

Are you a shareholder in Bomis, Mark? I know I'm not. We didn't have
"complete democracy" in any imaginable way; all we had was the fact that
Jimmy is a nice guy and Bomis was never taken over by evil people in the
meantime who might have decided that Bomis' resources would be better
spent in a different way.

Wikimedia's charter tasks it with maintaining a free encyclopedia, and
presently two-fifths of its board of directors is elected from the user
community. That's a much greater reassurance, and much closer to
"democracy", than relying solely on the whim of one nice guy with no
legal responsibility to keep the project going in the way 'we' like.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
As Avriette said,

"Since the entire content of the wikipedia is available for download
already, there's no reason they couldn't host their own wikipedia
content, pull it from us, and do whatever indexing they want to do
with it. If they have some altruistic goal, they should instead just
donate money. They've certainly got the spare cash."

If Google has no ulterior motives, they can donate $$$.

I somehow doubt that Google, a publicly-traded company with very
secretive management, wants to do this because they feel it's their
duty.

What worries me is that the final say rests with a small-but-trusted
group of individuals, not with the community. This is the trouble of
our switch from a complete democracy to a not-so-representative
democracy (only two of the board members were elected) - we have to
trust that these people will be gentle with our future.

Not that I don't trust these people. It's just that this is a very big
thing here, and even some of the best people have been swayed by the
power of the almighty monetary unit.

Mark

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:05:27 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> Check out http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting and
> its talk page. The best line in talk is the first post:
> "I, for one, welcome our new Google overlords".
>
> :-)
>
> Stan
>
> rose.parks at att.net wrote:
>
> >This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net.
> >
> >Hi, Is it possible that no one saw this yesterday in the Times? As Ever, Ruth Ifcher
> >
> >
> >TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005
> >
> >Google may host encyclopedia project
> >Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com
> >
> >The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers.
> >
> >http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
> >
> >
 >BGCOLOR="#F8F5EC">
> >

> >/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

> >
> >ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE
> >

> >SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress.  Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

> >
> >http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
> >
> >0
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
> >This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.
> >
> >NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018
> >
> >Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
> >_______________________________________________
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> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
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>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Anthere

body:
Yann Forget a ?crit:
> Le Friday 11 February 2005 18:05, Anthere a ?crit :
>
>>Yann Forget a ?crit:
>>
>>>Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit :
>>>
>>>>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal
>>>>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/
>>>>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting
>>>>since it is being linked to by /.?
>>>
>>>Done, but you could have done it yourself.
>>>It's a wiki, you know... ;o)
>>
>>Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to
>>add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official
>>as soon as WE report them.
>
>
> Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing list, not
> "rumors from the Internet".

The Foundation list is not on the Internet ? :-)