from_name: FxParlant

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Desperate for a linkification expert

references:
<dl59cm$9uc$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<dl5ce2$gvj$1@sea.gmane.org>	<dl5hg2$trp$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<dl5idr$veq$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Thanks Ashar, this solution would be rather "radical" because a lot of
my small customization would lost :-(

nevertheless, I'm more and more convinced that I can't do in this
version (1.5) what I used to do so easily in previous versions :-(

have you got a clu on how to deactivate the replacement of links
attribute in templates ? (I mean in mediawiki 1.5, of course)

Thanks for any idea.

Fran?ois

Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> FxParlant wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>Nice shot, thatss my problem, I haven't got a clue where I did something
>>wrong. i've only noticed this problem later.
>>
>>This link problem comes in the templates. I've also noticed someting
>>weirder:
>>If I call a template with a link, it comes broken.
>>If I put an ISBN call, befor the template call, the link is perfect
>>If the ISBN call is afterwards, the link is broken again.
>>
>>I'm in mw1.5
>
>
> Just download the original mediawiki tar.gz and do a recursive diff to
> find your changes :)
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Delirium

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Arbitration Committee members granted checkuser
	tool

body:
Chris Jenkinson wrote:

> As both of you would face legal recourse if you were to divulge
> private information in your day jobs, what do you think the opposition
> to having a comparable legal agreement between the Foundation and
> people with checkuser is due to, given that the situation is
> reasonably similar?

Because the situation is completely dissimilar:
1) IP addresses are not very important
2) Arbitrators are not employees of the Wikimedia Foundation
3) It is not in Wikipedia's best interests to introduce ridiculous legal
hurdles that make it even harder to recruit people for a mostly
thankless volunteer job that we already have trouble filling reliably

-Mark


list: wikitech-l

from_name: dominik.bach at web.de

subject: [Wikitech-l] Ripuarian

body:
Hello,

the question "dialect or language" has been discussed on MetaWiki,
you can find all arguments there.

>	http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarian
>	http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinl%C3%A4ndisch
>
>don't even exist yet.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Tels

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarian

does not exist because in German it is

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarisch

and in English

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarian

Best
Dominik


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Michael-Forest

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for language: (Jersey) Norman

body:
The dialects are mutually intelligible, but not without some (however minor
it may be, I'm not entirely sure) difficulty. However, a completely
different spelling standard is used for Continental Norman than is for
J?rriais, and this could, in theory, cause some problems were speakers of
continental dialects to desire to contribute to a "pan-Norman" wikipedia.

However, that said, I personally think that if there were Norman speakers
around who wished a wikipedia, they would be fine joining a J?rriais
wikipedia. One comment I once read is that one (continental) Norman speaker
did not believe there was anything left of their language apart from
J?rriais? (and another was absolutely thrilled to read that an American [me]
was learning "their language" (though I was learning J?rriais, not
continental Norman))

At 05:54 PM 11/13/2005, you wrote:

It may not be an issue if there are not many speakers of Continental
Norman, but are the dialects mutually intelligible, at least in written
form? That is, if at some point in the future some Continental Norman
speakers wanted a Wikipedia, could they coexist in one Wikipedia, as
British and American English do, or would a second Norman Wikipedia have
to be created?


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration Committee members granted checkuser tool

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>geni wrote:
>>
>>>On 11/12/05, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Why?
>>>
>>>
>>>1.) It looks bad.
>>>2.) We haven't exusted the option of not doing it (there are 4 other
>>>people on the list who haven't caused such high tension situations
>>>lately)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>To quote David Gerard:
>>
>>On Wikipedia, the reward for a job well done is another three jobs.
>>
>
>
>
> Geni seems to be using this thread as a vehicle to snipe at someone he
> doesn't like, and whom he blames for the recent high profile
> announcement (since retracted) by another editor that he intended to
> leave the wiki.  This thread isn't the place.
>

To be fair, geni isn't the only one to have used a Wikimedia mailing
list for soapboxing. Just about everyone who has been distressed at
something has done likewise, myself included.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: raul otjes

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
Right.

Andalusian is not a dialect, there are a lot of dialects in Andalusia, but
all of those dialects that are spoken in Andalusia, are a linguistic unit.

Every body that are not from Andalusia, but from Spain, cannot realized the
differencies between two diferent persons from Andalusia that speaks
different dialects from that unit that we call andalusian, but they realize,
that those speakers are from Andalusia, and they hava problems to understand
what the andalusians say.
But the andalusian can understand another andalusians, and all of them
consider they speak the same thing.

Andalusian is a language composed of many dialects, as every language in the
world.

Bye

>From: Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language
>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:00:33 +0100
>
>2005/11/13, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>:
> >
> > > I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
> > > appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation
> > > here.
> > >
> > > Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name
> > > is Andal??h.
> >
> > Andalusian is a dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
> > 14th edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
> > and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
> >
> > Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian is
> > less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian
> > is already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian
> > Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the purposes of Wikimedia,
> > Andalusian is effectively Spanish.
>
>When I read [[en:Andalusian Spanish]], I also see as an issue that
>there is no single Andalusian dialect, but that there are a number of
>dialects, which have large differences as well as a number of
>similarities which set them apart from other Spanish languages and
>dialects.
>
>--
>Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
>ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels

>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/


from_name: Delphine Ménard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Help needed for helpdesk-l

body:
On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:

> So where does the Wikimedia Foundation have its installation of OTRS,

On its servers. See the address.
> why don't I know about it,

Because it was not advertised in the right places? Because you didn't
look in the right places? I'd say both.

where are all the links to it, and why does
> helpdesk-l still exist?

This was answered by Sam.

Delphine
--
~notafish


list: foundation-l

from_name: Robert Scott Horning

subject: [Foundation-l] Incubator Wiki for New Wikimedia Projects

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>--- Robert Scott Horning <robert_horning at netzero.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Wikijunior, IMHO, was "forced" upon Wikibooks, and with the plan to
>>turn Wikijunior more into a kids version of Wikipedia, the connection
>>with Wikibooks is far less than what it could have been in the past.
>>
>>
>
>Wikijunior was no more forced on Wikibooks than any other book on Wikibooks is
>forced onto that community.
>
>-- mav
>
>
I guess more to the point, the people who started Wikijunior are no
longer the active participants in the project, and that it seemed to
have been something from the Foundation board that "you must have
Wikijunior here".  Wikijunior was never something like one of the other
Wikibooks  It didn't start as a simple page on Wikibooks and gradually
expand, requesting assistance from the Wikibooks community and trying to
stay within the Wikibooks community.

Instead, Wikijunior started out as an announcement on this mailing list,
a page on Meta that debated all kinds of philosophies and organizational
goals of the project, and plowed into Wikibooks as a full-fledged
project.  It didn't even start out on a standard Wikibooks bookshelf,
but in its own seperate domain within the Wikibooks project, and still
has some significant differences from other projects and books on
Wikibooks.  The changes on Wikibooks to add Wikijunior were very
arbitrary, and decisions made that hardly included any input from the
Wikibooks community in general.

Wikijunior policies are not Wikibooks policies, and the differences
become even more pronounced as discussions like a seperate domain and
even a seperate Wiki for Wikijunior have been thrown arround.  Things
like worries about pedophiles and levels of "censorship" of kid-friendly
content make this even more pronounced as something very different from
a normal Wikibook project.  Things like sticking to only the original
three books and not permitting any new sections to Wikijunior are more
examples of significant policy differences.

Wikijunior is not just another Wikibook on Wikibooks.  If the Wikibooks
community decided to VfD Wikijunior, there would be a torrent of hate
e-mail on this list and elsewhere that would only be equal to what
happened to Wikiversity.  And that would have nothing to do with the
quality of the material but because of the way that the project started.
 Again I add that Wikibooks should not be the incubator wiki, unless
that is precisely the role that the Wikimedia Foundation board wants it
to become.  Wikijunior was added to Wikibooks as if Wikibooks was the
incubator wiki, and it should have been a new project proposal on Meta
instead.  That such proposals seemingly never get approval is a reason
why nobody wants to throw an idea into that dustpile of ideas and
instead try to sneak the projects through a back door like Wikijunior
has done.

--
Robert Scott Horning


list: wikimedia-l


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Tower of Babel - Voting to ignore MoS, NCs for language
	reasons.

body:
charles matthews wrote:
>> PS: The vote is still going on. Please come and vote.
>
>
> Have done. But not in the way you hoped.
>

Hah, you should see the reason I gave ;)

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: Jacob Kingston

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please moderate your moderators

body:
Dear Wikipedia Administrators,

I do not appreciate the comments made towards my son earlier this evening while he was trying to create a new page on your site.  He is doing a project for his fifth grade art class and wanted to put some of his information on your website.  I am not entirely sure what happened because one of your administrators blocked our computers e-mail address and said my son was being a "pain in the ass".  This language is far from acceptable, especially since the boy is so young.  I could not create a profile, as that was what I was prompted to do, I assume because of the block placed on our "IP address".  I would however like this "danny" to at least apologize to my son, the block can stay if it was placed for a reason, but certainly there is no acceptable reasoning behind calling a fifth grader a pain in the ass.  I expect to hear from your staff promptly on this matter.

Sincerely,

Jacob Kingston

PS Here is part of what my screen showed my son:

Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Danny.
The reason given is:
pain in the ass
You can email Danny or one of the other administrators to discuss the block. You may also edit your user talk page if you wish. If you believe that our blocking policy was violated, you may discuss the block publicly on the WikiEN-l mailing list. Note that you may not use the "email this user" feature unless you have a Wikipedia account and a valid email address registered in your user preferences.

---------------------------------
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.


from_name: Ryan Delaney

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

>Jack Lynch wrote:
>
>>I personally am perfectly willing to pay a fee for expert adminship.
>>Have you seen the recent fund-drives? I've never donated money (just
>>time) to the wikipedia, but I would for paid admins I could trust.
>>
>
>You mean yourself.

Haha. How much do you think the Foundation should charge for
bureaucrat status?

Ryan
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Please Moderate Your Moderators


from_name: candy

subject: [Wikitech-l] change page rendering to display all metadata

body:
hi all,

Can somebody help me with the folowing :

In wikipedia when we view the page of an article, it displays the
content of the page  and not the metadata such as author(s),page
timestamps etc. A part of these metadata is visible in the history
section where it displays all the page revisions. I want to change the
rendering of the page such that we have a new tab (say metadata) where
all the metadata information regarding that page is displayed.

I would like to know the procedure of how this can be done. I am using
mediawiki1.5 and have already tried hacking through the code. I have a
vague idea but its not very clear and concrete. Your advise,instruction
or help will be highly appreciated.

Thanking you,
C


from_name: Daniel R. Tobias

subject: [WikiEN-l] Dealing with people who object to articles on themselves

body:
I've been following a number of these disputes, where somebody
objects either to the very fact of Wikipedia having an article on
them, or to the content of the article, or to the fact that they
don't have absolute veto power over it, or to basic aspects of the
structure of Wikipedia (e.g., that anybody can come in and edit any
article, and sometimes they may insert nasty, unjustified comments
which stick around until somebody else removes them, and could be
indexed or cached by search engines or scraped by mirror sites in the
meantime).  While these people may have some philosophical points
worth consideration, their method of pursuing them, by coming in and
vandalizing their own article, making unreasonable demands that go
against Wikipedia policy, and making legal threats, understandably
leads to antagonistic battles.

Through all of this, our Fearless Leader Jimbo has taken a consistent
position of being friendly and reasonable with all of these people,
even if they don't act the same way to us.  He aims to convince them
that their goals and ours are not irreconcilable, and we can all be
better off with cooperation instead of warfare.  He's a better man
than I; my emotional reaction to each of these cases has always been
to feel like, "If that guy wants war, then war is what he should
get!", and to want to get my adrenaline up and fight back as fiercely
as the other guy, or fiercer.

With some reflection, once I'm calmed down, I see that Jimbo's
position is actually not just good for his own karma; it really does
work.  If you look over the articles involved in such controversies,
they are almost without exception better off now than they were
before the fighting started.  The assertions made in the articles are
carefully sourced and referenced, the NPOV policy is scrupulously
followed, and the articles are vigorously patrolled for vandalism,
whether by the article subject and his/her friends, or by malicious
enemies.  All of this is consistent with what Jimbo urges we all do
with such articles; actually, it's what we should do with *all*
articles, but it's urged in a particularly strong way for disputed
ones such as these.  And, once people here get tired of feuding over
the articles and get to work improving them, the result is a better
encyclopedia.

But beyond this, in at least some of the cases, this method of
dealing with them has actually brought the controversy to an end.  I
observe at least one of the formerly hostile article subjects
participating constructively in Wikipedia since his last block was
lifted.  True, he's sometimes editing his own article, something
generally frowned upon, but the edits have been reasonable,
consisting of adding or modifying a source reference for greater
accuracy.  He's no longer trying to delete all criticism or insert
unsourced grandiose claims of his own feats, or to get the article
deleted, or threatening legal action.  Hence, there seems to be a win-
win situation there; we've got a better article and one fewer people
fighting us, while he's got a better article about himself that he is
apparently satisfied with.

Some of the other cases don't have as satisfactory a resolution; some
of their subjects remain blocked or banned for their activity, and/or
are continuing to agitate against Wikipedia on outside sites.
However, as far as I am aware, none of their legal threats has
resulted in any actual legal action (perhaps Jimbo can correct me on
this if I'm wrong), and all the articles seem reasonable and often
quite favorable to their subjects, even if the subjects themselves
still aren't happy about them.

So we seem to be doing something right; we should all try to stay
calm and follow Jimbo's example.

There *are* some genuine legal, moral, and philosophical issues
raised by these disputes; if something truly harmful (libel, slander,
defamation, invasion of privacy) got into an article (perhaps by a
vandal) and caused actual harm to somebody (not just the mostly
hypothetical scenarios which tend to be spun by our attackers), then
who, if anybody, would be held responsible?  How would such a thing
be dealt with, without changing our site's very nature?

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


from_name: Chris Jenkinson

body:
Kelly Martin wrote:
> Since we're discussing qualifications: I am the network manager for a
> financial services firm; systems under my supervision store personal
> and financial information for our clients and business partners.
> Privacy and security issues are obviously a significant part of my
> job.

What would happen if either of you (Kelly or Sean) disclosed private
information into the public domain? Aside from ethical concerns, what
prevents you from doing this?

Chris


body:
Kelly Martin wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Chris Jenkinson <chris at starglade.org> wrote:
>
>>What would happen if either of you (Kelly or Sean) disclosed private
>>information into the public domain? Aside from ethical concerns, what
>>prevents you from doing this?
>
>
> At work or on Wikipedia?
>
> At work, I would risk being fired, sued, and possibly prosecuted.
>
> On Wikipedia?  It would be wrong.  It would also be breaking several
> promises I've made.

As both of you would face legal recourse if you were to divulge private
information in your day jobs, what do you think the opposition to having
a comparable legal agreement between the Foundation and people with
checkuser is due to, given that the situation is reasonably similar?

Chris


from_name: Jack Lynch

body:
Thank you for becoming slightly more human to us lay-users.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 11/13/05, Kelly Martin <kelly.lynn.martin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> > For my income, I am a manager of a secure military network, compromise
> > of which would be ... bad.
> >
> > I have a fair understanding of privacy and security issues.
>
> Since we're discussing qualifications: I am the network manager for a
> financial services firm; systems under my supervision store personal
> and financial information for our clients and business partners.
> Privacy and security issues are obviously a significant part of my
> job.
>
> Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: BJörn Lindqvist

body:
> Perhaps you could explain. So far, and I'm just learning, once you
> have the ip address you can then see where it is coming from and
> sometimes whether it is a fixed or dynamic address. Blocking of
> dynamic addresses is not good. You can also get an address to
> complain to, assuming the problem is serious enough to justify that.

Thank you Fred. I'll try to explain but it's technical:

Currently, when an "anon" user edits an article, MediaWiki adds
something like this to a row in a MySQL database:

id: 1234567
userid: "34.19.215.33"
article: "Egypt"
change: <a diff between the new and old version>
tstamp: 20051113180645

When an edit is committed, MediaWiki checks if the user that made the
change has an account or not. If the user has an account it fills in
the userid field with that persons choosen alias. If not it checks the
IP number of the person and uses that as the userid. The solution to
the problem of exposing IP:s is to proxy them via an proxy-to-IP
mapping which looks something like this:

"anon1" => "34.19.215.33"
"anon2" => "179.55.66.77"
"anon3" => "215.108.3.2"
....

Each time an edit is comitted from an unknown IP address a new
proxy-to-ip-pair is added to the mapping. MediaWiki could then simply
look in the mapping for the proxy which has a certain IP. In the
example above, the proxy would be "anon1". And the "userid" field in
the row would contain "anon1" instead of "34.19.215.33". Preferably
only a few key developers and the MediaWiki software should be allowed
access to the proxy-to-IP mapping.

Checkuser would still work, but instead of returning an IP as a result
could return "user: [[foobar]], [[barfoo]] and [[anon9512]] shares an
IP address." Etc. There are technical solutions.

--
mvh Bj?rn


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

body:
In a message dated 11/13/2005 10:13:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
robert_horning at netzero.net writes:

That  such proposals seemingly never get approval is a reason
why nobody wants  to throw an idea into that dustpile of ideas and
instead try to sneak the  projects through a back door like Wikijunior
has  done.

Excuse me, but Wikijunior was never snuck through a back door. In fact, it
is probably one of the most relevant projects to Wikibooks in that it is
developing age-appropriate educational material. As I recall, that was the
objective of Wikibooks. Looking at it, it seems to have developed quite nicely.

Danny


body:
> Most of the Arbitration Committee give their real names on that page.
> Did you actually look at it?

Did you? I note that atleast three users present themselves without
real life labels. Not that I blame them, neither would I have my full
name published on a Wikipedia page. It's slightly hypocritical though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee

--
mvh Bj?rn


from_name: Manuel Miguel Aranda Ruiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
Oy, Oy, Oy...

No nos peleemos, que no es necesario tirarse las piedras nacionalistas a la
cabeza.

I consider we should help us and not say that you are not right, and he is
not right.......

I think that andalusian is a language, and what the people that are not
andalusians want to say should not be important, because we have the right
to do with our language what we want, the asturians also have that right.

I consider Andalusian as a language and you already know I am going to
participate, and I know a lot of people that also would participate if the
know about. I am going to get contact with them.

Ciao.

From:  "raul otjes"
<rautjes at hotmail.com>
Reply-To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject:  RE: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New
Language
Date:  Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:31:37 +0100
>But I
have to say that you are also right, it derivers from latin,
>but
what i wanted to say is that aragonese and asturian are

>"castellanizados" y
mucho.
>
>
>>From: Omar Alvarez
<omarete at gmail.com>
>>Reply-To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New
Language
>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:02:22
+0100
>>
>> >And Aragonese or Asturian are not more
different from castilian
>>as
>> >andalusian, they
were it in the past, but not today.
>>
>>That's not true.
First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not

>>dialects
>>from spanish, they derive directly from
latin. The Asturian has
>>also a
>>special status in
Asturias, and is official in Miranda do Douro

>>with
>>the name of mirand?s. In Leon, where it's also
spoken (with the
>>name
>>of leon?s) has no special
protection. You should read more about
>>this
>>before
saying things like that...
>>
>>The difference with the
Andalusian is that it is a dialect from

>>Spanish.
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l
mailing
list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Consigue
aqu? las mejores y mas recientes ofertas de trabajo en
>Am?rica
Latina y USA:
http://latam.msn.com/empleos/
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l
mailing
list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
Las mejores tiendas, los precios mas bajos, entregas en todo el mundo,
YupiMSN Compras: http://latam.msn.com/compras/


from_name: Ellimist

subject: [WikiEN-l] First Post, Requesting Assistance

body:
To whomever can help me with this issue:

When I try to edit an article in Wikipedia, I receive the message:

"User is blocked. *Your IP address is ***.***.**.***. *[I'd rather not have
my IP in this message; if you need it, please email me.]

Your user name or IP address has been
blocked<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy>by
Radiant! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Radiant%21>.

The reason given is:
*Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by
"Ellimist<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ellimist>".
The reason given for Ellimist's block is: "Flying Spaghetti sockpuppet"."
*

There are several apparent problems here.

1. I have so far been incapable of emailing Radiant! about this because
he/she does not allow members of Wikipedia to email him/her. Also, I have
received no response from another admin I emailed a week or two ago, so I
turned here.

2. After looking up "sockpuppet," I realized that I performed no such
action. I came to this conclusion by both realizing that I never performed
the action of "sockpuppeting" and I checked through my edit history. All I
saw there were votes on article deletions. I was not aware that voting would
be "sockpuppeting." Maybe it isn't. I don't quite understand. Perhaps this
arose out of my editing my own vote, fixing spelling errors after saving or
something?

3. After doing a bit of looking into Radiant!'s profile, I see that he/she
has banned others for similar alleged offenses. If they are all being banned
by the same criteria I am, I think there should be an inquiry made by other
admins on whether Radiant! is banning fairly.

If any administrators of WIkipedia would be kind enough to assist me with
this issue, I would be quite appreciative.

Thank you.

~Zack (Ellimist at gmail.com)


from_name: Wikipedia Romania (Ronline)

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Boycot

body:
Well, I think this whole Zlatiborian hoax has wasted a lot of time, and I
still don't understand why Mark is going about it as if it's still a
legitimate language. Wikipedia is a flexible place, and there's nothing
wrong with having a joke, but I think this has become very bad-taste now. I
would propose deleting it from Requests for new languages.

Ronline

On 11/13/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
> With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone
> to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.
>
> Waerth/Walter
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >>If someone argues for something without _any_ knowledge about cultures
> >>which are included in that "something", (s)he is a fool. If (s)he is a
> >>young person, (s)he can learn something in the future and stop being a
> >>fool. If (s)he is a mature fool, it is better that society isolate
> >>such person to prevent any further damage.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Alright, it seems quite clear that you're discussing me here without
> >mentioning names.
> >
> >Again, you're assuming I don't have "_any_" knowledge of which
> >cultures are included.
> >
> >As regards your "better that society isolate such person", that idea
> >strikes me as very Naziistic -- isolate all of the people who are a
> >harm to society as you judge them to be, even if it's something really
> >trivial or silly.
> >
> >It's not as if people who do the things in questions are murderers, or
> >rapists, or even mentally insane.
> >
> >
> >
> >>If someone argues for something only because of fun AND without any
> >>knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he
> >>is NOT ONLY a fool, but a very dangerous person. If (s)he is a young
> >>person, I hope that (s)he can learn something and that (s)he would not
> >>be such person in the future. For such adult persons I think that the
> >>less damage is to kill her/him than to wait to see mass graves because
> >>of such "Innocent games".
> >>
> >>
> >
> >First of all, as I noted many times before, this discussion is _not_
> >for fun. Your continued insistence to the contrary seems to me to be
> >an attempt to mock the glorious people of Mt Zlatibor, making you an
> >anti-Zlatiborian. For that, you will not be judged kindly when the day
> >of judgement is upon us.
> >
> >It strikes me as anti-human to propose KILLING any adult who argues in
> >a joking manner and without any knowledge about it... Really, that's
> >just plain SADISTIC. Insane, really. If anybody needs their head
> >checked, I'd say it's you -- talking an awful lot about killing people
> >here where it's not really relevant to the topic at hand.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Neoliberal social POV is the biggest bullshit as I know. (And Mark is
> >>highly influenced with that kind of bullshit.) It is trying to merge
> >>cultures without any knowledge about these cultures. This is the clear
> >>example of colonialist behaviour which is deep in the souls of
> >>(almost) all Westerners.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Nobody said anything about trying to merge _cultures_. There are not
> >Wikipedias for _cultures_. Wikipedias are created for LANGUAGES.
> >Languages and cultures are two very separate entities. Spanish is
> >spoken by the majority of Mexicans as well as the majority of
> >Spaniards, and yet their cultures are as different as night and day.
> >Portuguese is shared between Portugal and Brasil, and yet they are
> >very amazingly different. The differences reflected within the
> >Francophonie, the Commonwealth, the CIS, and other such groups of
> >places based on the languages they share are also extreme.
> >
> >Language can be either a tool to unite or divide. Now, it is
> >linguistically impossible that 20 years ago, there was one language,
> >and today, it is 3. The process is much, much, slower than that.
> >Separate cultures, sure -- Bosnian and Croatian cultures are clearly
> >very different. But separate languages -- definitely not, it's a
> >ludicrous suggestion.
> >
> >
> >
> >>And this is not related only to Balkans... I saw the same conversation
> >>about Low Saxon. Even it is reasonable to start to work on
> >>computational translator between Dutch and German one, it is not
> >>reasonable to force people to work together in this moment. The same
> >>is for Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedias.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >What was it you said earlier about arguing about things we don't know
> >about? If you don't want to be a hypocrite, perhaps you should recuse
> >yourself as regards Low Saxon.
> >
> >
> >
> >>And someone is making an irony about our problems? And (s)he is far a
> >>way of our problems?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Let me guess -- their skulls should be bashed in? They should be
> >killed? Or some other similarly sadistic and gruesome fate which is
> >clearly undeserved for an offense so minor??
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >--
> >"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Jtkiefer

body:
We definitely need some sort of ticketing system since this is getting
ridiculous (164 unread messages and at least a couple hundred messages
in the moderation queue).  If possible I'd suggest something that's
easier to use then the bugzilla system but unlike the OTRS system it
should be something that is open and that anyone can jump in and help
on.  It should also be something that's easily ticket based and
searchable so that people can pull up old requests if they want.

-Jtkiefer


from_name: geni

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Tower of Babel - Voting to ignore MoS,
	NCs for language reasons.

body:
On 11/13/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> Maybe the US State Department is just following the UN lead on this.
> The proportion of newspapers and websites using the English name is
> irrelevant.  The position of official Ivoirian sites is more influential.
>
not is isn't. Read what the MOS has to say.

> This is a racist slur for which you owe everyone an apology.
>
The french speaking people of the world are now a race? Uh okeey.

> Please avoid the use of abbreviations.  They only make your comments
> more difficult to read.
>
Manual of style Nameing conventions

> Determining the official name of a country is not a matter for voting.
> It is a sure way of having facts overwhelmed by ignorance.

We are not decideing it's offcial name. We are deciding how many
people on wikipedia are incaple of following naming policy. Current
total is 21. The nameing conventions say  "article naming should give
priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily
recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same
time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

--
geni


body:
On 11/13/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> I personally am perfectly willing to pay a fee for expert adminship.
> Have you seen the recent fund-drives? I've never donated money (just
> time) to the wikipedia, but I would for paid admins I could trust.
>
> Jack (Sam Spade)
>

Our past history on that front has been less than ideal. Anyway where
are you going to get these expert admins from?

--
geni


from_name: Omar Alvarez

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
>And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as
>andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.

That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not dialects
from spanish, they derive directly from latin. The Asturian has also a
special status in Asturias, and is official in Miranda do Douro with
the name of mirand?s. In Leon, where it's also spoken (with the name
of leon?s) has no special protection. You should read more about this
before saying things like that...

The difference with the Andalusian is that it is a dialect from Spanish.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Boycot

body:
Well, I don't know what you guys mean by a boycott, anyway.
But I think boycotts are quite wrong, yes.
Still, I think this Zlatiborian hoax must be finalised once and for all,
which will need some explaining from Node.

On 11/13/05, Gerrit Holl <gerrit at nl.linux.org> wrote:
>
> Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) wrote:
> > Well, I think this whole Zlatiborian hoax has wasted a lot of time, and
> I
> > still don't understand why Mark is going about it as if it's still a
> > legitimate language. Wikipedia is a flexible place, and there's nothing
> > wrong with having a joke, but I think this has become very bad-taste
> now. I
> > would propose deleting it from Requests for new languages.
>
> I think a boycott is not at all suitable here.
>
> Gerrit.
>
> --
> Temperature in Lule?, Norrbotten, Sweden:
> | Current temperature 05-11-13 12:59:52 1.1 degrees Celsius ( 34.1F) |
> --
> Det finns inte d?ligt v?der, bara d?liga kl?der.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Milos Rancic

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Boycot

body:
No, the point is not to boycott Mark!

While Mark did irritated me (and as I did talk against some of Mark's
foolish behaviour), I was never talking that Mark is the most
important problem. The most important problem is community response
about one hoax!

And I would like to point now with a few sentences as well as I would
like that someone hear/read it:

1. Political decisions about some scientific (even sociological) fact
is very very bad. We should have comity for Wikipedias in new
languages. (I.e., I hope that we would not make political decision
that Earth is flat.)

2. The most irritating and the most dangerous Mark's characteristic is
that he doesn't have responsibility about his steps inside of other
cultures. Wiki(p|m)edian community is growing into global cultural
movement and community response to such things should be strong: (1)
while separatism and nationalism are far a way of the most of
Westernernes, (2) while I left 10 years of my life inside of such
bullshit and I am very nervous when someone attacks me on that field,
(3) in some cultures this is the question of life and death. (Note
that it can be something other then separatism and nationalism.)

And Wikipedian community would be faced very soon with communication
with such communities. And this means that we should prepare for it.

Those are the points.

And about Mark: I am sure that some people know him better. Please
talk with him. He has enough of time to change himself.

On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > On 13/11/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> >
> >>With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone
> >>to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.
> >
> >
> > I'm going to pretend you didn't say the last sentence, and reply
> > instead to the rest of your e-mail.
> >
> > I'm not sure which parts of my e-mail are "drivel" -- are you just
> > referring to the Zlatiborian part, or all of it? I find it hard to
> > believe that you would agree with Milos on his beliefs about how
> > people should be isolated from society or even killed for their
> > attitudes.
> >
>
> Well, you told me that the "anti-Zlatiborians will be first against the
> wall when the revolution comes" (or words to that effect); who's got the
> moral high ground now?
>
> --
> Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
> "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
> Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>


from_name: Timwi

body:
> If you are ready to help and want an account there, ask the people in
> charge of the queue you can help with (ie. probably info-en in your
> case).

I can't believe that Wikimedia is still having problems grasping the
wiki concept. Why should I even need an account? Why do I need to ask
any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the
questions?

You also haven't answered my question why helpdesk-l still exists if we
have a proper ticket system set up already.

Until you get these basic things sorted, you're not going to get
particularly many volunteers to help you.

Timwi


from_name: raul otjes

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
You should read more before you say anything that is not true. Andalusian is
not a dialect, is a group of dialects that are very simmilar between them,
but very different from spanish. And Andalusian is spoken by a lot of
people, approx. 8000000 in Andalusia, it derivers from the Latin dialects
that were spoken in the arabic spain.

bye.

>From: Omar Alvarez <omarete at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language
>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:02:22 +0100
>
> >And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as
> >andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.
>
>That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not dialects
>from spanish, they derive directly from latin. The Asturian has also a
>special status in Asturias, and is official in Miranda do Douro with
>the name of mirand?s. In Leon, where it's also spoken (with the name
>of leon?s) has no special protection. You should read more about this
>before saying things like that...
>
>The difference with the Andalusian is that it is a dialect from Spanish.
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
But I have to say that you are also right, it derivers from latin, but what
i wanted to say is that aragonese and asturian are "castellanizados" y
mucho.

>From: Omar Alvarez <omarete at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language
>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:02:22 +0100
>
> >And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as
> >andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.
>
>That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not dialects
>from spanish, they derive directly from latin. The Asturian has also a
>special status in Asturias, and is official in Miranda do Douro with
>the name of mirand?s. In Leon, where it's also spoken (with the name
>of leon?s) has no special protection. You should read more about this
>before saying things like that...
>
>The difference with the Andalusian is that it is a dialect from Spanish.
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
Consigue aqu? las mejores y mas recientes ofertas de trabajo en Am?rica
Latina y USA: http://latam.msn.com/empleos/


from_name: ABCD

subject: [WikiEN-l] Usability

body:
Looking through the Helpdesk-l mailing list, it seems that some people
are having a hard time finding the edit link at the top of the page,
although they can find the edit links for the sections.  Should
something be done about this?

ABCD


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocked for nonexistent "3RR vio"

body:
Ben Yates wrote:
> It doesn't matter if you were RIGHT.  The three revert rule is
> designed precisely to sidestep discussions of who's right, in order to
> prevent edit wars.

I think you didn't follow this thread in its entirety. This was about
SPUI removing an entry from AfD that was an obvious speedy keep. If
people had acknowledged that this was right, instead of insisting that
everything must go strictly according to protocol and norm, then there
would never have been any reverting, no 3RR violation and no edit war.

Timwi


from_name: Kelly Martin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Usability

body:
On 11/13/05, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:
> How about just bolding it?
>
> --gkhan

It's already bolded, at least in Monobook.

Kelly


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
Hi Mark,

thank you, it is good to see that people understand what we thing.

Did you really did that test-wp? I woder.

Why can you write andalusian? how did you learned it? Im just curious.

Ok, Rautjes and I, we are trying to start a wiki in andalusian, it is so
difficult, if anyone have done it already and has a few tipps, you
know.......

Ciao, and thanks

From:  Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Reply-To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
To:
wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject:  Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New
Language
Date:  Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:09:07 -0700
>Hoaxes
aside, many people do consider Andalus to be a separate
>language, and
there are thousands of references on the internet to
>"idioma
andaluh", "idioma andalu", "idioma andaluz", etc.
etc.
>
>Anticipating such a request, I started an Andaluz
Test-WP before it
>was even requested...
hah.
>
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/and/
>
>Cheers,
>Mark
>
>On
13/11/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
>
> > appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its
creation
> > > here.
> > >
> > >
Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional
name
> > > is Andal?h.
> >
> > Andalusian is a
dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
> > 14th
edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
>
> and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
> >
>
> Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian
is
> > less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind
that Asturian
> > is already quite close (although we do have a
separate Asturian
> > Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the
purposes of Wikimedia,
> > Andalusian is effectively
Spanish.
> >
> > Timwi
> >
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l
mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>
>--
>"Take away their language,
destroy their souls." -- Joseph
Stalin
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l
mailing
list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
Las mejores tiendas, los precios mas bajos, entregas en todo el mundo,
YupiMSN Compras: http://latam.msn.com/compras/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

references:
<BAY18-F19417FAA63C4DF900C8D5A15B0@phx.gbl>	<dl7tsi$v80$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<6faf39c90511131000g11cffd7av@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Andre Engels wrote:
> 2005/11/13, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>:
>
>>>I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
>>>appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation
>>>here.
>>>
>>>Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name
>>>is Andal?h.
>>
>>Andalusian is a dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
>>14th edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
>>and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
>>
>>Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian is
>>less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian
>>is already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian
>>Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the purposes of Wikimedia,
>>Andalusian is effectively Spanish.
>
> When I read [[en:Andalusian Spanish]], I also see as an issue that
> there is no single Andalusian dialect, but that there are a number of
> dialects, which have large differences as well as a number of
> similarities which set them apart from other Spanish languages and
> dialects.

That argument would similarly apply to Allemanian (als), Low Saxon
(nds), Ripuarian (no Wikipedia yet), and perhaps also Scots (sco). Yet
they appear to have developed a unified orthography for themselves. I
haven't looked at them enough to figure out whether their spellings and
grammars are actually internally consistent, although it seems at least
Scots (sco) follows some sort of semi-official language authority.


body:
I personally am perfectly willing to pay a fee for expert adminship.
Have you seen the recent fund-drives? I've never donated money (just
time) to the wikipedia, but I would for paid admins I could trust.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 11/13/05, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Chris Jenkinson <chris at starglade.org> wrote:
> > As both of you would face legal recourse if you were to divulge private
> > information in your day jobs, what do you think the opposition to having
> > a comparable legal agreement between the Foundation and people with
> > checkuser is due to, given that the situation is reasonably similar?
>
> If I were in their situation: the volunteer relationship.
>
> If you're not paying me, then you get my word and the law.  If those
> aren't sufficient, make me an employee and pay me.
>
> IMO, such a legal agreement would be part of an employment contract
> and would require compensation.  Legally, a contract requires
> compensation anyway.
>
> I suspect the Wikimedia Foundation does not want such a legal
> relationship anyway.
>
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
Omar Alvarez wrote:
>>And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as
>>andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.
>
> That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not dialects
> from spanish, they derive directly from latin.

Uhm... whether you consider them a dialect of Spanish or not is pretty
much independent of whether it derives from Latin or not. All Romance
languages/dialects/whatever derive from Latin, including Spanish,
Asturian and Andalusian.

Timwi


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
Hi again, Mark.

I would like to know if you let me to make a link to the test-wp in
andalusian, from the page where are tryng to request it. It would be very
nice if you agree.

Ciao.

From:  Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Reply-To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
To:
wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject:  Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New
Language
Date:  Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:09:07 -0700
>Hoaxes
aside, many people do consider Andalus to be a separate
>language, and
there are thousands of references on the internet to
>"idioma
andaluh", "idioma andalu", "idioma andaluz", etc.
etc.
>
>Anticipating such a request, I started an Andaluz
Test-WP before it
>was even requested...
hah.
>
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/and/
>
>Cheers,
>Mark
>
>On
13/11/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
>
> > appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its
creation
> > > here.
> > >
> > >
Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional
name
> > > is Andal?h.
> >
> > Andalusian is a
dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
> > 14th
edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
>
> and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
> >
>
> Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian
is
> > less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind
that Asturian
> > is already quite close (although we do have a
separate Asturian
> > Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the
purposes of Wikimedia,
> > Andalusian is effectively
Spanish.
> >
> > Timwi
> >
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l
mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>
>--
>"Take away their language,
destroy their souls." -- Joseph
Stalin
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l
mailing
list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
Consigue aqu? las mejores y mas recientes ofertas de trabajo en Am?rica
Latina y USA: http://latam.msn.com/empleos/


from_name: Omar Álvarez

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
2005/11/13, Manuel Miguel Aranda Ruiz <aranda_ruiz at hotmail.com>:
> Oy, Oy, Oy...
>
> No nos peleemos, que no es necesario tirarse las piedras nacionalistas a la
> cabeza.

Who is talking about nacionalism here? We are talking about
ling?istics. I see perfect that you ask for a wikipedia in your
prefered language/dialect, Andalusian, Mexican, Klingon... whatever
you want, but please, don't tell things that are not true about other
wikipedias (I know you aren't who said that, but I'm saying it in
general).

Bye


from_name: Tom Cadden

subject: [WikiEN-l] Deletionitis

body:
--- Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/13/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> wrote:
> > The process that Tom describes in relation to the
> Irish articles appears
> > to be organized vandalism by the wiki's Hell's
> Angels.
>
> I think that's taking it too far.  The issue seems
> to be that what's
> in the guidelines for how templates should be used
> (content that's in
> multiple articles) is contrary to what a number of
> editors have been
> doing (using them to separate out complex table and
> infobox markup
> from the main page).
>
> That being said, it seems to me that once it became
> obvious that the
> true issue was one of POLICY, the issue should have
> been removed from
> [[WP:TFD]] and discussed somewhere else, a consensus
> formed on whether
> using templates to extract complexity from a single
> article is a good
> idea or not, and THEN clean things up if needed.
>
> IMO, the argument of 'server performance' being used
> as the
> justification to remove such templates is spurious.
> The significant
> hit on server performance is when a template that's
> used on LOTS of
> articles gets changed - then, the cached rendering
> of each page using
> the template must be flushed and each page must be
> regenerated on the
> next use.  The transclusion of a template into only
> one article is not
> that heavy a load - if it were, we wouldn't be doing
> template
> transclusion at all.
>
> I tend to the conclusion that what I really dislike
> about the deletion
> pages is the attempt to make policy in them.  Policy
> issues should not
> be decided lynch-mob fashion under a deletion
> deadline.  In this way,
> those who frequent the deletion pages - no matter
> what "side" they're
> on - are trying to set Wikipedia policy for the
> community as a whole,
> without attempting to involve the wider community in
> that "consensus
> building".
>
> -Matt (User:Morven)

I agree. The problem is that one fanatical deletionist
can propose vast numbers of deletions. The same group
of like minded individuals can all en block vote for
deletion. Then when someone comes along and says 'hey,
this is ridiculous in this case' the chorus jumps up
and says 'that's policy. We've deleted 'x' number on
these grounds. If you oppose this you are opposing
policy'. Others then think that if it is policy it
must have been defined and discussed somewhere, so
they, even though it seems illogical, don't stand up
to the block, meaning more and more articles or
templates get deleted in effect by an ad hoc policy
set by a few likeminded individuals who are always on
the page voting. And because they don't even notify
people in advance, the first thing a user knows about
a deletion is when a perfectly good template has
disappeared, and they are left muttered 'what the
hell???'.

Thom
>

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


body:
Assumably from advertised applications, like any other paid position?

As far as the past, I would have preferred if Larry Sanger had stayed
on, and in general that wikipedia had kept up w paid staffing. I saw
from the recent budget that this idea is being returned to. Thats a
good thing. Successful charities have paid staff.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 11/13/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I personally am perfectly willing to pay a fee for expert adminship.
> > Have you seen the recent fund-drives? I've never donated money (just
> > time) to the wikipedia, but I would for paid admins I could trust.
> >
> > Jack (Sam Spade)
> >
>
> Our past history on that front has been less than ideal. Anyway where
> are you going to get these expert admins from?
>
>
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
Hi,

I think that Omar means that Asturian derives from old-leon?s, and spanisch
from old-castilian, any way I m not sure if he really wanted to say that.

Well we have to add that Andalusian derives as well from the dialects spoken
in the mooslem Spain, those dialects derive from latin as well as
old-leon?s, ols-castilian etc....

Ciao.

From:  Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>
Reply-To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
To:
wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
Subject:  [Wikipedia-l] Re: New
Language
Date:  Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:55:52 +0000
>Omar
Alvarez wrote:
>>>And Aragonese or Asturian are not more
different from castilian as
>>>andalusian, they were it in the
past, but not today.
>>
>>That's not true. First of all,
Aragonose and Asturian are not
>>dialects
>>from spanish,
they derive directly from latin.
>
>Uhm... whether you consider
them a dialect of Spanish or not is
>pretty much independent of
whether it derives from Latin or not. All
>Romance
languages/dialects/whatever derive from Latin, including
>Spanish,
Asturian and
Andalusian.
>
>Timwi
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l
mailing
list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
Charla con tus amigos en l?nea mediante MSN Messenger:
http://messenger.latam.msn.com/


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
I see in your proposal that there is a native speaker who may be
interested, as well.

Although I'd have no problems with starting that Wikipedia right now,
the general community seems to require 2 native speakers (!)... not
really nessecary to start a good Wikipedia, but at the same time, you
could have a "dead" Wikipedia with 50 native speakers.

Anyhow, I think people would pay more attention to the request if:

1) Start a test-wiki at meta
2) Find more native speakers to support it
3) Give a bit less information in the proposal on meta -- information
is good, but that much of it is a little much for people to swim
through in a list like that.
4) At the same time, give more information in other areas -- would the
Wikipedia cover Dgernesiais, Sertchais (?), and perhaps even
Continental Norman, as well as Jerriais? While they are certainly
closely related, I'm not sure a Dgernesiais speaker would be of
reading articles in Jerriais, with "th" in places they think are
weird.

Cheers
Mark

On 13/11/05, Michael-Forest <knighteddawn at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a rudimentary ability with the language (J?rriais. At first I thought
> you were asking if I spoke Dg?rn?siais, a related dialect), though I can
> read it at an advanced level. I do have enough ability with the language to
> teach basic J?rriais to anyone who is interested in learning.
>  (Mich?-For?t is my name in J?rriais. Call me either)
>  On 11/13/05, wikipedia-l-request at wikimedia.org <
> wikipedia-l-request at wikimedia.org> wrote:
> >
> > Mich?-For?t (or is it Michael-Forest?),
> >
> > Do you speak Djeriais?
> >
> > Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: Mark Gallagher

body:
G'day Tony,

> What is the name of that country in the middle of Europe, famous for
> its sausages and beer?  Deutschland or Germany?  How about the big
> one on the bottom left, Sandwiched between France and North Africa?
> Spain or Espa?a?  Is it The Netherland or Nederland, Italy or Italia,
> Japan or Nihon, Sweden or Sverige?

Nederland, of course. (Dutch grandparents, eh?).  But why don't we just
call it "Holland"?  More English speakers do than not, after all.

And I note that [[Burma]] redirects to [[Myanmar]].  Now, where *I* come
from, we called it "Burma" and were bloody proud of the fact[0]; what's
the deal, people?  We're not letting Johnny Foreigner dictate to us
proud English-speakers, are we?

> Of course Ivory Coast is the real name of the country, just as
> Royaume Uni is the real French name of the UK, and it would be a very
>  fatheaded French speaker indeed who insisted on parking the article
> on the UK under United Kingdom where hardly anybody would look for
> it.

Anecdotally, Cote d'Ivoire (excuse the lack of accents; I couldn't be
bothered looking them up) is becoming much more prominent in English.
This may be because of football (futebol, fussball ... soccer ...).  The
World Game bringing people together!  Oh, the old eyes just cannot but
well up with tears, eh?  Of course, that's not a reason to move, but we
may want to keep in mind that in ten or fifteen years' time we'll be
wanting to bung it under the correct name after all.

I note (looking at the article now) that the national govt itself has
requested that *all* nations refer to it as "Cote d'Ivoire".  It would
only be courteous do accede.  It's their country, after all, not ours.
Have other governments in similar situations --- the United Kingdom is
an excelling example --- taken such a step?  Have the French really told
the English to "get knotted" (a much deadlier insult in French,
obviously), or was the request never made?

[0] Okay, not really.

Cheers,

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse

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body:
Angela wrote:
> On 11/14/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>>Why do I need to ask
>>any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the
>>questions?
>
> Because people misunderstand the nature of the queue and send private
> information there. If there want to send non-private information, they
> should use helpdesk-l instead. It also allows Jimmy to forward the
> hundreds of questions he receives personally somewhere for someone
> else to answer without having to worry about making the sender's
> private details public.

I should clarify at this point that I have no interest in convincing you
of anything. I was trying to give some helpful hints as to how to win
the volunteers you so desperately seem to need, but obviously nobody is
listening, so I might as well stop bothering and not volunteer.

Timwi


body:
--- geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/13/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Maybe the US State Department is just following
> the UN lead on this.
> > The proportion of newspapers and websites using
> the English name is
> > irrelevant.  The position of official Ivoirian
> sites is more influential.
> >
> not is isn't. Read what the MOS has to say.
>
>
> > This is a racist slur for which you owe everyone
> an apology.
> >
> The french speaking people of the world are now a
> race? Uh okeey.
>
>
> > Please avoid the use of abbreviations.  They only
> make your comments
> > more difficult to read.
> >
> Manual of style Nameing conventions
>
>
> > Determining the official name of a country is not
> a matter for voting.
> > It is a sure way of having facts overwhelmed by
> ignorance.
>
> We are not decideing it's offcial name. We are
> deciding how many
> people on wikipedia are incaple of following naming
> policy. Current
> total is 21. The nameing conventions say  "article
> naming should give
> priority to what the majority of English speakers
> would most easily
> recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity,
> while at the same
> time making linking to those articles easy and
> second nature."
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> geni

Correct. Indeed what is going on that debate is
symtomatic of just how many people don't know the MoS
and the naming conventions, and take offence if
someone points them out.

Some of the zanier arguments defending the less widely
used French name being used in place of the far more
widely used English are how:How

everyone uses it (demonstably untrue).

everyone SHOULD use it. (which breaks NPOV. It isn't
our job to say what they SHOULD do, just what they DO
do.)

I use it, therefore obviously the rest of the planet
does to.

I've only heard it being called that (if you are a
French speaker and you deal with French speakers from
that country, of course you would only have heard it
called that. But this is english wikipedia!)

It would be stupid not to.

All articles SHOULD be written this way (ie, it
doesn't matter that they aren't. Lets make up a new
rule for this page!)

We have to do what the government says (no we don't.
We don't name any other country based on what their
government demands, but on english speakers' usage!)

The fact that Wikipedia has a set of strict rules for
naming pages doesn't seem to matter to most of the
'keep the French name' voters. It does seem suspicious
that a group of French speakers can vote to ensure
that a less well known French name is given priority
over a far more widely name, internationally used,
English version, on English Wikipedia, no matter what
the factual evidence is, what the name conventions
state or what the manual of style requires.

Thom

It is notable

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


from_name: Angela

body:
On 11/14/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Why do I need to ask
> any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the
> questions?

Because people misunderstand the nature of the queue and send private
information there. If there want to send non-private information, they
should use helpdesk-l instead. It also allows Jimmy to forward the
hundreds of questions he receives personally somewhere for someone
else to answer without having to worry about making the sender's
private details public.

Angela


subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocked for nonexistent "3RR vio"

body:
G'day SPUI,

> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Interchanges_on_Ontario_provincial_highway_401&action=history
>
> I have five edits there. The first was adding the top and bottom
> templates; it was not a revert. The last was making my "vote"; it was
>  also not a revert. Yet I've been blocked for a "3RR vio".
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page=User%3ASPUI
>

You disruptively attempted to close an AfD on an article that falls into
your area of ... what's that word that isn't "obsession" but means the
same thing?  You did so four times.  You then voted "speedy keep", with
your first sentence being the same as your edit summary.  Now, correct
me if I'm wrong --- feel free to add extra interpretations, anyone who
reads this --- but I think this could be interpreted in one of four ways:

   a) You closed an AfD you *knew* you shouldn't close, and were
      reverted.  You *knew* you would get into trouble if you kept going,
      but nonetheless attempted to disrupt the subpage a further three
      times.  This is blatant disruption, and warrants blocking.
   b) You deliberately continued to rv User:Aranda56's edits right up
      until you knew you'd hit the 3RR limit, then suddenly decided that
      maybe a note would be more appropriate than wholesale reversion.
      This is blatantly gaming the 3RR by engaging in an edit war within
      the "legal" limit, and warrants blocking.
   c) Your vote could be interpreted as a third rv, given that you'd
      already "expressed" your opinion so very disruptively so very many
      times and had it rvted.  This is an explicit violation of 3RR, and
      warrants blocking.
   d) You were being a dick.  This doesn't warrant blocking
      (necessarily), but is bloody annoying just the same.

Looking at the pages in question, I can see 'a', 'b', and 'd'.  I admit
that I don't agree with 'c' anymore than you do.  But it doesn't really
matter --- either way, you're blocked, deservedly so.

Of course, I'm not an admin.  Wiser heads may disagree.

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
The reason why it is so difficult to say how to write the "h" is because
this letter is phonologically too alive.

"u" is a closed "u",
"?" is an opend "u",
"?" is an accentuated closed "u",
and "`u" is an accentuated opened "u".

In the world Andal?h, that "u" is opened and accentuated, that is the reason
to write "?".
The problem with that "h" in Andal?h is that it doesnt hava to be spoken if
"Andal?h" is the last word of the sentence containing it. But if Andal?h is
not the last world of the sentence containing it, it has to be spoken.

As you can see, there are some phonologically problems with andalusian,
because phonologically is Andalusian very difficult. But the orthography in
andalusian will not be a problem.

Ciao.

From:  Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Reply-To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
To:
wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject:  Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New
Language
Date:  Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:26:20
-0700
>Although Andalusian has no single unified orthography, most
people
>write it using normal Spanish spelling, with only a few points
of
>contention.
>
>The main one is how to write the
"h" sound corresponding to Castillian
>"s"--
should it be "idiomah", or "idiom?"? "andaluh"
or "andal?"? It
>seems to have been solved quite nicely here
by just writing "andal?h".
>
>There are a handful of
crazy people who invented a new orthography for
>Andalus. You may
ignore them entirely.
>
>Mark
>
>On 13/11/05, Timwi
<timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> > Andre Engels wrote:
> >
> 2005/11/13, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>:
> > >
> >
>>>I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do
not
> > >>>appear in the language-list, so I think I have
to ask for its creation
> > >>>here.
> >
>>>
> > >>>Andalusian is the name of that
language in Englisch, its regional name
> > >>>is
Andal?h.
> > >>
> > >>Andalusian is a dialect
of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
> > >>14th
edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
>
> >>and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
> >
>>
> > >>Ethnologue also states (in the entry about
Asturian) that Andalusian is
> > >>less different from
Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian
> > >>is
already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian
> >
>>Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the purposes of
Wikimedia,
> > >>Andalusian is effectively Spanish.
>
> >
> > > When I read [[en:Andalusian Spanish]], I also
see as an issue that
> > > there is no single Andalusian
dialect, but that there are a number of
> > > dialects, which
have large differences as well as a number of
> > > similarities
which set them apart from other Spanish languages and
> > >
dialects.
> >
> > That argument would similarly apply to
Allemanian (als), Low Saxon
> > (nds), Ripuarian (no Wikipedia
yet), and perhaps also Scots (sco). Yet
> > they appear to have
developed a unified orthography for themselves. I
> > haven't
looked at them enough to figure out whether their spellings and
> >
grammars are actually internally consistent, although it seems at
least
> > Scots (sco) follows some sort of semi-official language
authority.
> >
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l
mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>
>--
>"Take away their language,
destroy their souls." -- Joseph
Stalin
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l
mailing
list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Deletionitis

body:
--- Travis Mason-Bushman <travis at gpsports-eng.com>
wrote:

> Yes sir, those fanatical deletionists are out to
> destroy the Wikipedia
> again. Those like-minded thugs are the definition of
> evil.
>
> There's an "ad-hoc" policy that every single school
> gets kept, thanks to
> "fanatical inclusionists" who as a "group of
> like-minded individuals can all
> en block vote" to keep them. "Then when someone
> comes along and says 'hey,
> this is ridiculous in this case' the chorus jumps up
> and says 'that's
> policy. We've kept 'x' number on these grounds. If
> you oppose this you are
> opposing policy'. Others then think that if it is
> policy it must have been
> defined and discussed somewhere, so they, even
> though it seems illogical,
> don't stand up to the block, meaning more and more
> articles get kept in
> effect by an ad hoc policy set by a few likeminded
> individuals who are
> always on the page voting."
>
> See how that works the other way too?
>
> -Travis Mason-Bushman
> FCYTravis @ en.wikipedia

No. Not at all. There is no policy. There is a group
of people who are engaging in mass deletions, not of
stuff worthy of deletion, but of often high quality
stuff on the basis of made up grounds which they
justify on the basis of past deletions which they
themselves masterminds. They usually do it without
even informing the creators of the work of their
proposed deletion and go ballistic if their
pseudo-policy is questioned. (Many of them do not then
even bother to fix the problems deletions cause but
leave it to others to inform people of proposed
deletions, to try to introduce some sanity into the
manner in which deletions are handled, and to repair
broken articles after the stuff has been deleted.

Thom

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> Unlike many
> other French-speaking
> countries the official name for English purposes is
> the French one.  See
> the member list for the United Nations at
> http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html  This does
> not mean that other
> French speaking countries follow the same practice.
> The Central African
> Republic does not appear as R?publique
> Centraficaine.
That is irrelevant. The official name of the Republic
of Ireland is Poblacht na h?ireann. We do not use it.
Nor do we use the official name in French of the
French Republic. We do have have the article on
Germany at the Federal Republic of Germany, let alone
the German language version of the name.

WP does not use official names are article titles.
With countries it uses common names, and puts the
official name at the top of the article's infobox.
>
> Maybe the US State Department is just following the
> UN lead on this.
> The proportion of newspapers and websites using the
> English name is
> irrelevant.  The position of official Ivoirian sites
> is more influential.

The position of Ivoirian sites is irrelevant. This is
not an Ivoirian encyclop?dia but an English language
one that does not write its articles to suit
governments and official sites.
>
> >Even then the majority was queuing up to insist the
> >French name be kept, no matter what. But a closer
> look
> >showed that a large number of those voting to keep
> the
> >French name were French speakers!
> >
> This is a racist slur for which you owe everyone an
> apology.

Absolutely not. It is a fact that an article is being
kept in a location against the explicit rules in the
MoS but a vote of users of one particular language,
many of whom seem intent on putting their defence of
that language above Wikipedia's own rules.

> >
> >What is WP policy when language is used to a block
> >vote to force the MoS and NC to be ignored in an
> >article's name?
> >
> Please avoid the use of abbreviations.  They only
> make your comments
> more difficult to read.

People on WP regularly use MoS for Manual of Style and
NC for Naming Conventions.

> Determining the official name of a country is not a
> matter for voting.
> It is a sure way of having facts overwhelmed by
> ignorance.
I'm surprised you don't know that WP policy IS to
decide the location of an article by voting. It is
done through requesting moves and voting on them. It
is a standard procedure used throughout WP.

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "How to get a girl"

body:
On 11/13/05, Stephen Forrest <stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
> == Somewhat dubious ==
> [[Bartending]]
> [[Cookbook]]
> [[Guide to X11]]
> [[Linux for Newbies]]
> [[Mac OS X Tiger]]
> [[Serial Programming:Modems and AT Commands]]
> [[Programming XML]]
>
> I don't deny that these are useful, but I don't think you're going to
> find high-school or university courses in bartending, cooking, or in
> very specific technologies.  A university computer science curriculum
> will have courses in operating systems, sure, but no one I've ever
> heard of has courses in MacOS or Linux specifically.
>
> I think these pages are useful, but I don't agree that they fit the
> criteria of "textbook for a course at the early childhood,
> kindergarten, elementary, junior high, high school, or university
> level".  However, I'd guess that community colleges would offer
> courses in all of this stuff.  Should "community college" be included
> in the list as well?
>

These all seem clearly appropriate to Wikibooks to me (although I
don't claim to know the ins and outs of Wikibooks inclusion policy).
All of these "somewhat dubious" books are useful handbooks, and would
be used by many courses, if not high school/university ones. In fact,
one of my ideas for wikiversity (in whatever form it takes) is to
support these types of courses (including a MediaWiki developer
course) which could easily interface with these books. Or, of course,
if Wikiversity remains on Wikibooks, it could centre around *the
writing of these books*.

Cormac


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

body:
Mark Gallagher wrote:
>
> G'day Tony,
>
>> What is the name of that country in the middle of Europe, famous for
>> its sausages and beer?  Deutschland or Germany?  How about the big
>> one on the bottom left, Sandwiched between France and North Africa?
>> Spain or Espa?a?  Is it The Netherland or Nederland, Italy or Italia,
>> Japan or Nihon, Sweden or Sverige?
>
>
> Nederland, of course. (Dutch grandparents, eh?).  But why don't we just
> call it "Holland"?  More English speakers do than not, after all.
>
> And I note that [[Burma]] redirects to [[Myanmar]].  Now, where *I* come
> from, we called it "Burma" and were bloody proud of the fact[0]; what's
> the deal, people?  We're not letting Johnny Foreigner dictate to us
> proud English-speakers, are we?
>

Oh bloody hell, I'm moving [[Zimbabwe]] to [[Rhodesia]], [[Democratic
Republic of the Congo]] to [[Zaire]], and [[Australia]] to [[New Holland]].

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
Sam Korn wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Wikiacc <wikiacc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>[1] I know people like that--a link will be right in front of their
>>face and they'll ask, "Where's the link?"
>
>
> cf the number of people emailing various mailing lists to report
> errors and vandalism on the site: they miss the numerous edit buttons.
>

Also "How do I reference your site" and "can I use your materials"...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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body:
Sam Korn wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 11/13/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> [[Myanmar]] with Burma a redirect.
>>>
>>
>>Another utterly ridiculous situation.  The country has had a perfectly
>>good name in English for some centuries now.  Let's have done with it,
>>move Munich to M?nchen, Venice to Venezia, Milan to Milano, Poland to
>>Polska, and Austria to ?sterreich.  Who needs English, anyway?
>
>
> Perhaps a more useful example would be moving [[United Kingdom]] to
> [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]] -- certainly
> the country's official name, if not its common name.  On the other
> hand, I happen to think of the relevant African country as C?te
> d'Ivore.  I think most news sources (the ones I read, anyway, TIME and
> the Guardian/Observer) do the same.  The BBC might as well.  That, to
> me, is its natural name.  (The fact that I am 16 may not be
> irrelevant.)
>

To me, the name of Burma is Myanmar; the natural name of Zaire is the
Democratic Republic of the Congo; and so on and so forth.

And yes, the Ivory Coast is properly C?te d'Ivoire. Yes, the French beat
the British in naming a country. GET OVER IT.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Boycot

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> On 13/11/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
>>With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone
>>to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.
>
>
> I'm going to pretend you didn't say the last sentence, and reply
> instead to the rest of your e-mail.
>
> I'm not sure which parts of my e-mail are "drivel" -- are you just
> referring to the Zlatiborian part, or all of it? I find it hard to
> believe that you would agree with Milos on his beliefs about how
> people should be isolated from society or even killed for their
> attitudes.
>

Well, you told me that the "anti-Zlatiborians will be first against the
wall when the revolution comes" (or words to that effect); who's got the
moral high ground now?

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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body:
Sam Korn wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
>
>>You didn't look very hard, did you?  Or have you determined that "Sean
>>Barrett" is a "random and totally meaningless userid" and not a "real
>>life name," just like "Fred Bauder," "James Forrester," and all the rest
>>of those terribly clever aliases we use?
>
>
> I am going to guess that you are all more identifiable than those
> examining the server logs at Google, who could also release your IP if
> they saw fit.
>

And given that Google stores indefinite preference cookies, all the
searches you've ever done with them too...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: Michael-Forest

body:
I have a rudimentary ability with the language (J?rriais. At first I thought
you were asking if I spoke Dg?rn?siais, a related dialect), though I can
read it at an advanced level. I do have enough ability with the language to
teach basic J?rriais to anyone who is interested in learning.
 (Mich?-For?t is my name in J?rriais. Call me either)
 On 11/13/05, wikipedia-l-request at wikimedia.org <
wikipedia-l-request at wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> Mich?-For?t (or is it Michael-Forest?),
>
> Do you speak Djeriais?
>
> Mark


body:
geni wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>To me, the name of Burma is Myanmar; the natural name of Zaire is the
>>Democratic Republic of the Congo; and so on and so forth.
>
>
> No one uses Zaire though. it wasn't a massively popular name when the
> country was called Zaire
>
>
>>And yes, the Ivory Coast is properly C?te d'Ivoire. Yes, the French beat
>>the British in naming a country. GET OVER IT.
>
>
> It's proper name is of no imporance. That isn't what the MOS says.
>
>

Better rename all the articles on French towns, people and business in
France then, too.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
On 11/14/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:

> I should clarify at this point that I have no interest in convincing you
> of anything. I was trying to give some helpful hints as to how to win
> the volunteers you so desperately seem to need, but obviously nobody is
> listening, so I might as well stop bothering and not volunteer.

I think you've misunderstood the situation. It isn't the private OTRS
queue which needs more volunteers right now, but the publicly
available helpdesk-l, to which anyone can subscribe and help out at
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l

Angela.


body:
BJ?rn Lindqvist wrote:
> Hi Anthere
>
>
>>Checks should be done only on accounts doing abusive edits to Wikipedia
>>(vandalism, insults, spam, defaming etc...)
>
>  > If checks are done without any relevant reasons related to abuse, then
>
>>those checks are abusive and the person with the checkuser access should
>>(will) lose it.
>
>
> Just like admins wrongfully blocking accounts are also supposed to
> have their admin status revoked? Please realize that the two actions
> have very different worst cases.
>
> Blocking: Worst case: You do not get to write in Wikipedia for a while.
>
> IP Checking: Worst case: Someone who doesn't like you get your ip
> checked, calls your ISP and talks with a clueless receptionist who
> reveals your real life name. That person then publishes your name
> somewhere. Your boss who happens to also be a Wikipedia user finds out
> about it and fires you because s/he think your political stuff you've
> written on Wikipedia suck. So some brat on WIkipedia cost you your
> employment.
>

Given the severe lack of static IPs that still exist, and the number of
ISPs who now pool subscribers together into regional proxies, an IP is
no longer the "personal" thing that it might once have been.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
Sam Korn wrote:
> On 11/13/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hey it isn't an issue until me and tony end up on the oposite sides.
>
>
> Note to self: don't get on the wrong side of Geni.
>

Could be worse; could be Jimbo...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Tower of Babel - Voting to ignore MoS, NCs for	language
	reasons.

body:
Chris L?er wrote:
> Tony Sidaway wrote:
>
>> Of course Ivory Coast is the real name of the country, just as Royaume
>> Uni is the real French name of the UK, and it would be a very
>> fatheaded French speaker indeed who insisted on parking the article on
>> the UK under United Kingdom where hardly anybody would look for it.
>
>
> The issue with Ivory Coast/ C?te d'Ivoire is not English versus French,
> but Colonialism versus Independence. Most African countries that used to
> have European names changed to local names by the time they got
> independent, e.g. Gold Coast to Ghana, Southwest Africa to Namibia,
> British West Africa to Nigeria. IC/CI didn't. So when they decided to
> fix that problem recently, they did not to do what neighboring Upper
> Volta did (they renamed themselves to Burkina and nobody knew where the
> place was anymore), but instead they said the country name shouldn't be
> translated anymore, as if it was a local name.
>
> The question is whether a country should have the right to decide on its
> own name, and if we should respect that decision. Deutschland doesn't
> mind being called Germany in English, neither does Nihon mind being
> called Japan in English, but CI/IC and Myanmar/Burma do mind their
> traditional English names.
>

So in the interests of addressing systematic bias, I say we leave it the
hell alone. If they want to be called "C?te d'Ivoire", that's where the
article should be. End of discussion. MOS be damned; it's the spirit of
the rules that counts.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
geni wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Better rename all the articles on French towns, people and business in
>>France then, too.
>
>
> Execept that with the exception of a few big ones they don't really
> have common english names.
>

Well, here's an example of a German company (couldn't think of any
French ones): Telefonica Deutchland. Should the article on them be
called "German Telecom"???

HELLO!!!!!!!!! DID WE LOSE OUR BRAINS SOMEWHERE ALONG THE ROAD TO
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS????????

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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body:
geni wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>geni wrote:
>>Well, here's an example of a German company (couldn't think of any
>>French ones): Telefonica Deutchland. Should the article on them be
>>called "German Telecom"???
>
>
> No becuase that is not how they are know in english. Much as the pre
> euro currency of germany was not know as the german mark
>

The Arc de'Triomphe? The Moulin Rouge?

As Mark Williamson would be so fond of saying, "calling them by their
English name is cultural oppression". The Government of the C?te
d'Ivoire wants to be called that, let that be what the article is
called. We already state this in the article.

>
>
>>HELLO!!!!!!!!! DID WE LOSE OUR BRAINS SOMEWHERE ALONG THE ROAD TO
>>POLITICAL CORRECTNESS????????
>
>
> huh?
>
>

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you... I'm late and it's tired...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
G'day Alphax,

> geni wrote:
>> On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Better rename all the articles on French towns, people and
>>> business in France then, too.
>>
>> Execept that with the exception of a few big ones they don't really
>>  have common english names.
>
> Well, here's an example of a German company (couldn't think of any
> French ones): Telefonica Deutchland. Should the article on them be
> called "German Telecom"???
>
> HELLO!!!!!!!!! DID WE LOSE OUR BRAINS SOMEWHERE ALONG THE ROAD TO
> POLITICAL CORRECTNESS????????

Well, if you have to shout to be heard, I imagine German Telecom's
service is similar to their British and Australian counterparts ...

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse

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body:
G'day geni,

> On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Better rename all the articles on French towns, people and business in
>>France then, too.
>
> Execept that with the exception of a few big ones they don't really
> have common english names.

No worries.  Anyone here good with Francais?  Let's take a few French
names that can be translated to English and insist on using them.  We
needn't restrict it to towns, either: you know that "Jean" bloke at work
who your secretary keeps daydreaming about?  From now on, call him
"John" and see how he reacts.

How about the reverse?  I noticed, the other day, that a town in the USA
(sorry, "the world") bears the ridiculous name of "Sugar Land, Texas".
I see no reason why fr-WP shouldn't call it "Terre De Sucre".  It is,
after all, the *French* Wikipedia, and Texans should not be allowed to
dictate to them anymore than Ivorians can dictate to us.

Cheers,

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse

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