subject: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous [sic] leader.

body:
If I have broken Netequet by posting the msg to the wikipedia mailing list,
then Jimbo broke it when he posted my mail to the abritration at nohat.net.

and according to Sean Bartlett.

"Any unsolicited e-mail sent to me becomes my property, to be stored,
copied, or redistributed any way I like"

He's a member of arbcomm. So does your stuff about netiquette mean you
will be having ago at them?

From:           	"James D. Forrester" <james at jdforrester.org>
To:             	"'English Wikipedia'" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous [sic] leader.
Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:52:19 +0100
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> On Friday, April 08, 2005 5:29 PM, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The mail Mr Wales sent to me was copied [snip] to:
> > arbitration at nohat.net.
>
> Yes. The private email that Jimbo sent you was part of a series of emails
> conducted between yourself and the Committee (which includes Jimbo, as it
> were). Note that word there - "private". That you didn't respect the
> convention of standard etiquette, which, extended onto the Internet, becomes
> "Netiquette", that private email stays private (as with any other form of
> correspondence) unless permission is granted from the author(s) is ...
> unfortunate.
>
> > It's strange but I get a bounce when I try to copy in my
> > replies to the mail, not being a member of the list.
>
> Indeed. The list is a private list. Gosh, that word again. It is for the
> private deliberation of that problematic users and situations collectively
> known as "Arbitration cases".
>
> > Just another way in which wikipedia places everyone at the mercy of the
> > arbcomm.
>
> Wikipedia is "at the mercy of" Jimbo. Jimbo has delegated his "mercy", to
> use your term, to the Arbitration Committee that he convened over 15 months
> ago, and which he periodically refreshes the membership thereof as guided by
> the wishes of the community. Significant disciplinary matters in Wikipedia
> are thus guided by a number of editors who are held in high esteem by the
> community at large (or, at least, so one hopes).
>
>
> > A bunch of people who cannot even be bothered to make there
> > reasoning clear.
>
> Their reasoning seems quite clear to me. Perhaps I'm standing in some sort
> of reality distortion bubble, along with the rest of the Committee and
> Wikipedia community?
>
> > The more this goes on, the more obvious it becomes, that the people
> > running the show aren't here for the data.
>
> If you mean, "[..] aren't here for the good of the Project", I sadly have to
> agree with you - there are indeed some people who have contributed to
> Wikipedia who do not seem to follow the goals of the project. This is
> greatly saddening. Indeed, the various forms of dispute resolution, of which
> Arbitration is oft seen as the most serious (and is very much often the most
> terminal) form, sometimes see users who are evidently out to disrupt the
> Project.
>
> Those from whom the community judges it receives more trouble than their
> contributions are worth, however, are another class of user, and a much more
> common form. They, too, are to be excluded from the Project, because we are
> all but as cogs in the great machine that is Wikipedia, and not one of us is
> irreplacable. Cogs who feel that they are often end up being forcibly
> removed, and, with time, their position is filled by another, and so on it
> goes.
>
> [Snip sig]
>
> Yours,
> --
> James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]
>
> Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
> IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: John Fader

subject: [Wikitech-l] Suppress thumbnail?

body:
On Apr 8, 2005 5:41 PM, Graham Miller <gmiller at delmarasset.com> wrote:

> I'm using MediaWiki internally and have made the changes needed to allow
> users to upload Excel spreadsheets and Word documents via the image
> upload feature: by enabling uploads and adding .doc and .xls to the list
> of preferred upload types.  The only thing that doesn't really work very
> well is that when you link to an Excel spreadsheet, for example, it
> still tries to thumbnail it and show a thumbnail.  What's the smallest
> change I can make to the code to suppress the display of a thumbnail for
> these two file types?  Thanks.

You do know that you can make a link to stuff with "media:" rather
than "image:" and it makes a link to the file?

(sorry if I'm stating the obvious)
--
John Fader


list: wikien-l

from_name: John Bradley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
> You're doing it right now: treating Wikipedia like a social club which
> has unfairly booted you out - instead of a service organization.
>
> One last time:
>
> * Why do you want to be in Wikipedia?
Create an encyclopedia.

> * What specific changes do you propose to improve any article?
Discuss changes before making them, list of rational and reason befor esomething is done, not when you called to justify it.

>
> Answer both these questions, and I can help you. Ignore them and, well,
> sorry ...
		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [WikiEN-l] Your golorous [sic] leader.

body:
On Friday, April 08, 2005 6:03 PM, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:

[James F. wrote:]

> > On Friday, April 08, 2005 5:29 PM, John Bradley
> > <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > The mail Mr Wales sent to me was copied [snip] to:
> > > arbitration at nohat.net.
> >
> > Yes. The private email that Jimbo sent you was part of a series of
> > emails conducted between yourself and the Committee (which includes
> > Jimbo, as it were). Note that word there - "private". That you
> > didn't respect the convention of standard etiquette, which,
> > extended onto the Internet, becomes "Netiquette", that private
> > email stays private (as with any other form of correspondence)
> > unless permission is granted from the author(s) is ... unfortunate.

[Snip]

> If I have broken Netequet by posting the msg to the wikipedia mailing
> list, then Jimbo broke it when he posted my mail to the
> abritration at nohat.net.

I disagree. You emailed Jimbo in his capacity as someone able to do
something final about your current situation, a position he shares with the
Committee; by forwarding this to the Committee, he was ensuring that the
email "stays private" (to quote myself) whilst informing the people of your
point of view, and of his. This was wholly for your very own benefit; a snap
judgement to "ban him forever and ignore for all time" would occupy
significantly less of Jimbo's precious time, time which he spends running a
charity, rather than making individual decisions. Please stop wasting yet
more time. Arbitration is already taking place. Further comments should be
directed there, not here.

[Snip]

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


from_name: Violet/Riga

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Who is Ashlee Simpson?"

body:
I personally like "Who is John Smith?"

~~~~ Violet/Riga


list: foundation-l

from_name: Aphaia

subject: [Foundation-l] Vandalism on Tatar Wiktionary

body:
I requested for temporal adminship and deleted spammed pages found on RC.
Later I will check other pages from Allpages.

Is there any Tatar speaking Wiktionarian even in elementary level?

If your favorite Wiktionary lacks a interlang link from Main page to
[[tt:T?wge Bit]] please put it on. It would be helpful to check this
inactive project more frequently.

Cheers,

--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your golorous leader.

body:
you can directely write to jimbo at jwales at wikia.com.

Ant

John Bradley a ?crit:
> The mail Mr Wales sent to me was copied into Copies to:
> arbitration at nohat.net
>
> It's strange but I get a bounce when I try to copy in my replies to the mail,
> not being a member of the list.
>
> Just another way in which wikipedia places everyone at the mercy of the
> arbcomm. A bunch of people who cannot even be bothered to make there
> reasoning clear.
>
> The more this goes on, the more obvious it becomes, that the people
> running the show aren't here for the data.		Yours
>
> 		John Bradley
>
> Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] "Who is Ashlee Simpson?"

body:
There are still some bugs in it! Who is...

...the best?
Best
Property: ... is a municipality and a town in the southern Netherlands.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best

...the daddy?
Who's Your Daddy?
Property: ... is a colloquial phrase that gained popularity in the
first years of the 21st Century.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who's_Your_Daddy?
(good catch!)

...the boss?
BOSS
Property: ... is a brand name of Roland Corporation.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOSS

...Bill?
The Bill
Property: ... is a long-running British police drama shown on ITV1.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bill

...Smith?
Smith & Smith
Property: ... was a Canadian sketch comedy series, which aired from
1979 to 1985 on Hamilton, Ontario's CHCH, and ...
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Smith

...reading it?
Reading Station
Property: ... a station complex in the Reading in England.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_station

...alive?
Alive!
Property: ... were an all-women band playing jazz music.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alive!

~~~~ Violet/Riga


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Suppress thumbnail?

body:
On Apr 8, 2005 5:41 PM, Graham Miller <gmiller at delmarasset.com> wrote:
> What's the smallest
> change I can make to the code to suppress the display of a thumbnail for
> these two file types?  Thanks.

I would suggest no change at all. There are 3 ways of linking to any
uploaded file:
1) [[Image:<filename>]] - display the upload (i.e. image) inline, and
link to the description page (note that this isn't a thumbnail, but
the whole image, unless you use extra options e.g.
[[Image:<filename>|thumb|This is a thumbnail]])
2) [[:Image:<filename>]] - just make a normal link to the description
page (the leading colon suppresses the inline display
3) [[Media:<filename>]] - make a seemingly normal link, but to the
file itself, rather than the description page (in practice, a
"download" link)

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] interwiki-links in WikiRolls

body:
> I read some complaints and questions on interwiki-links. Will there be the
> ability for admins to edit the list of interwiki-prefixes in MediaWiki 1.5 so
> developers do not have to deal with them anymore? Like Blogrolls of Weblogs we
> could also have WikiRolls. Special:Wikiroll could print a list of other wikis
> and their namespace-prefixes.

No, there will not be a way to do that like that.


from_name: Matt R

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Your arbcomm commitee

body:
--- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Ok, well, I do, and you are cordially invited to either leave the
> > > project or start treating other people with kindness and respect.
>
> Another question occurs. Is when are people going to treat me with
> kindness and respect. That has been noticeable in the non answering of
> questions evasive answering of questions. Which runs all the way to the
> top it seems.

Hmm. Your demands for courtesy ring hollow, to be honest. I've watched people
bend over backwards to treat you with kindness and respect, and I'm still
waiting to see you return the favour to anyone. Do you remember this
conversation last week (the first interaction we ever had)? It started like
this...

Matt Crypto> "Please avoid personal attacks. Thanks."

Irate> "Shit for brains. If you want to stop personal attacks stop making them
yourself. I do not apparciate bing talked to by idiots and you count as one.
Now fuck off and don't come near me again."

-- Matt
[[User:Matt Crypto]]

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


list: textbook-l

from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Textbook-l] New Wikistats report for Wikibooks

body:
I'm glad to announce a new report for Wikibooks, generated periodically by
the Wikistats job.

You'll find here an overview of books, a list of chapters and some stats.

I discovered there are at least 6 naming schemes for chapters. This made it
difficult to automate extraction of chapter names, so in some cases the
grouping of chapters may look a bit odd. I'm sure this will improve when the
ongoing discussion about standardisation of article titles on Wikibooks
bears fruit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikibooks/EN/WikiBookIndex.htm

Erik Zachte


subject: [Wikitech-l] New Wikistats report for Wikibooks


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.

That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)

http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/04/08/1658247.shtml?tid=109&tid=95&tid=8

Magnus
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCVs0eCZKBJbEFcz0RApfKAJ9mKxwBxmmTl30y1kfeKOXyhhELWACdFhTw
tWg+rfeTHa7aCEWHfuifrwY=
=5pHl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: notafish

body:
> You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
> staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.
>
> That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)
>
> http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/04/08/1658247.shtml?tid=109&tid=95&tid=8

Hey I have a proposal ;-)
All active users of all wikipedias take one day off the wiki and edit
Encarta for a day.
Let's see if they can handle that ;-)

Cheers,

Delphine
PS. Don't forget to preview before sending your edition ;-). Or again, not.


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi,

Le Friday 8 April 2005 20:27, Magnus Manske a ?crit :
> You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
> staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.
>
> That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)
>
> http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/04/08/1658247.shtml?tid=109&ti
>d=95&tid=8
>
> Magnus

Did someone propose an entry for [[Wikipedia]] ? ;oP
I?am sure it is still missing.

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


body:
On Apr 7, 2005 2:53 PM, Jakob <jakob.voss at s1999.tu-chemnitz.de> wrote:

> I read some complaints and questions on interwiki-links. Will there be the
> ability for admins to edit the list of interwiki-prefixes in MediaWiki 1.5 so
> developers do not have to deal with them anymore? Like Blogrolls of Weblogs we
> could also have WikiRolls. Special:Wikiroll could print a list of other wikis
> and their namespace-prefixes.

Perhaps I don't understand what you mean.  Is
   http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_map
not sufficient?

The only thing that has which is nonstandard is the script that copies
it into the interwiki table, a script someone is sure to send you if
you ask for it.
--
John Fader


body:
On Apr 8, 2005 9:32 PM, John Fader <jfader at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps I don't understand what you mean.  Is
>    http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_map
> not sufficient?
>
> The only thing that has which is nonstandard is the script that copies
> it into the interwiki table, a script someone is sure to send you if
> you ask for it.

The script to copy that page (or a local page like it) is, I believe,
command-line based, and therefore still needs developer (i.e. someone
with access to the server) attention, unless it is set as a cron job
(i.e. run automatically at regular intervals). Jakob was asking for a
way of letting *sysops* do that - i.e. a web-based interface for users
with the appropriate rights.

While importing wikitext from the command-line may remain useful for
the large set of Wikimedia wikis (for ease of synchronisation), other
MediaWiki-based sites might find it more appropriate to entrust the
management to a particular subset of their users (remember that 1.5
will include a more flexible user-rights system than just 'user' vs
'sysop').

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
On Apr 8, 2005 9:07 PM, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason <avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I read some complaints and questions on interwiki-links. Will there be the
> > ability for admins to edit the list of interwiki-prefixes in MediaWiki 1.5 so
> > developers do not have to deal with them anymore?

> No, there will not be a way to do that like that.

I don't mean to sound rude, but how do you know? If you think we
*shouldn't* have such a feature, then I'm happy to hear your reasoning
- and indeed I'd tend to agree w.r.t. the Wikimedia projects, simply
because there are so many of them to manage at once. But Wikimedia is
only one user of the software, and I think for some people web-based
administration is far more convenient than command-line scripts or
direct database hacking.

Given that MediaWiki is an open-source project, I don't see how you
can state that there "will not be" - if someone writes the feature, it
will exist. Even if it's not included in the distribution, they can
host it themselves as an additional download. Unless you just meant
that it won't be in 1.5, and I've missed some decision about the kind
of new features still being accepted for that release?

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
On Apr 8, 2005 9:46 PM, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:

> The script to copy that page (or a local page like it) is, I believe,
> command-line based,

It's maintainance/rebuildInterwiki.php

> and therefore still needs developer (i.e. someone
> with access to the server) attention, unless it is set as a cron job
> (i.e. run automatically at regular intervals). Jakob was asking for a
> way of letting *sysops* do that - i.e. a web-based interface for users
> with the appropriate rights.

So he can run the script on a cron job, as you suggest (which is
clearly what wikimedia does) and protect the interwiki page (so only
his sysops can make changes).

That would only be a problem if some hosting service allowed you php,
mysql and to install mediawiki, but wouldn't let you make ordinary
user cronjobs.

--
John Fader


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Reliable, selectable content

body:
I've been reading some of these 1.0 discussions for some time but I'm
still not sure what the point of this will be. To make money? I find
it really unlikely that anybody willing to spend money on an
encyclopedia this day and age would do it for one compiled by
anonymous authors online (at a site they could look at for free). The
"people who pay for encyclopedias" market (especially since many new
and and old computers come with encyclopedias bundled with them, which
seem all but useless to me) would seem unlikely to overlap much  with
the "people who would respect Wikipedia" market.

I think a paper Wikipedia would really take out the whole point of
what makes Wikipedia good. You lose the collective effort, the
knowledge that if it says something that you think is wrong or poorly
worded, you, yes YOU!, can just up and change it and you've probably
done a good thing. That's what makes Wikipedia useful and fun -- the
information is great, often better than other encyclopedias who will
remain unmentioned, but isolated from the Wiki context it's just a
'pedia, not a Wikipedia.

And it seems that donations seem to provide a better income source
than selling DVDs would ever likely generate.

Is it not about money? What's it about? I looks suspiciously like
paper-envy, which is just silly. Wikipedia succeeds because it is not
paper, because it is sprawling and often quite unconventional, because
it uses hypertext, because it is editable. Remove any of those
elements completely and it's just a set of quasi-reliable data served
up by perhaps too many cooks. The second we produce a static
Wikipedia, the second that EB blowhard will be right in his assessment
of us.

Wikipedia is nothing if it is static -- I don't even like to browse it
when editing is not working; what's the point? I suddenly am
transformed into a passive subject, just another guy watching
television. I come to Wikipedia because it lets me be a participant,
an editor, an active agent. I don't think I'm alone in this, I think
it's the entire appeal which makes people want to fork over their cash
when the donation cup comes around. It's an appeal that I think will
always generate more money than would something as crass as a DVD
edition.

That's how I see it, anyway.

FF

On Apr 8, 2005 7:26 PM, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Tony Sidaway (minorityreport at bluebottle.com) [050408 23:45]:
>
> > I don't see that it has to be that radical.  If people disagree with a
> > particular choice of subjects, they can print and sell their own version
> > with their own preferred choice.  It's all GFDL.  There's no need for
> > warring, except between the people who may be putting up the money to have
> > this project done--and I suspect this would be an outside body in any case
> > so it's their choice, not ours.
>
> You do have a point there - we may do a DVD, but we probably wouldn't print
> and distribute paper ourselves, or at least not the first version. Having
> articles of a good rating to select from would be something a commercial
> editorial board could actually achieve in feasible commercial time.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On Apr 8, 2005 9:59 PM, John Fader <jfader at gmail.com> wrote:
> That would only be a problem if some hosting service allowed you php,
> mysql and to install mediawiki, but wouldn't let you make ordinary
> user cronjobs.

That doesn't sound at all unlikely, to be honest. Remember that
MediaWiki has a web-based install, so you can install with nothing
more than FTP access, as long as there are writable directories and a
MySQL server you can point it at [in fact, I think most things will
run without a writable directory, to be honest]. And judging from
postings on mediawiki-l, plenty do.

Besides which, creating a cron job is hardly in the same league,
user-friendly-wise, as, say, enabling a particular setting to allow
editting in Special:InterMap. There are plenty of people who install
MediaWiki who have no "developer"-style expertise, so from their point
of view the more tasks that can be achieved in an "admin"-style the
better.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Mathias Schindler

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

> Did someone propose an entry for [[Wikipedia]] ? ;oP
> I am sure it is still missing.

Maybe the new minor security "issue" could help to propose an article
"Wikipedia" on Encarta:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/MSN_Encarta_introduces_wiki-like_enhancements


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] 'Who is Ashlee Simpson?'

body:
Violet/Riga said:
> There are still some bugs in it! Who is...
>
> ....the best?
> Best
> Property: ... is a municipality and a town in the southern Netherlands.
> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best
>
> ....the daddy?
> Who's Your Daddy?
> Property: ... is a colloquial phrase that gained popularity in the
> first years of the 21st Century.
> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who's_Your_Daddy?
> (good catch!)

Well I don't get *any* of this stuff. Instead I get pretty much what you'd
expect.  I'm in London so maybe our local Google servers aren't running
that "who is" stuff.
Who is Ashlee Simpson?

Tip: Have a question? Ask the researchers at Google Answers.

News results for Who is Ashlee Simpson? - View today's top stories
	Ashlee Simpson speaks out - Miami Herald - 14 hours ago

Ashlee Simpson
Official web site, provides news, photos, downloads for this singer.
www.ashleesimpsonmusic.com/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages

Ashlee Simpson
Ashlee Simpson - Filmography, Awards, Biography, Agent, Discussions,
Photos, News Articles, Fan Sites.www.imdb.com/name/nm1249883/ - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

AshleeSimpson.net
Includes pictures, news, biography, and downloads.
www.ashleesimpson.net/ - 1k - 6 Apr 2005 - Cached - Similar pages


body:
Magnus Manske said:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
> staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.
>
> That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)

Searched Encarta for 'autofellatio'

No results were found for your search in Encarta.


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Foundation news

body:
On Apr 8, 2005 10:08 PM, Jack Lutz <jack-lutz at comcast.net> wrote:
> Is there any source for news occuring within Wikimedia? I read today that Jimbo expects the English Wikipedia to be ready for a 1.0 release by the end of 2005; but I read it in ZDNET, and there's not a mention of it on the actual 1.0 page, nor on the Village pump, nor on the mailing list?

I was under the impression that Foundation news was collected on Meta.
Try http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_News and
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Goings-on.

--Slowking Man


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>David 'DJ' Hedley (spyders at btinternet.com) [050409 03:28]:
>
>
>>I agree with this request, his posts appear to be delibrately disruptive and
>>are probably annoying a number of mailing list members. He has nothing good
>>to contribute to this list.
>>
>>
>"When in doubt, do nothing." The wikien-l admins are basically reluctant to
>actively administer the list membership, as that would quickly start to
>become work. Our main job is actually to filter the spam for posts from
>humans. We'll see if Irate calms down a little.
>
>
Keep in mind also that this is where we tell people to go if they get
blocked, so that they have some avenue of appeal. Naturally, in such
situations their posts may not be the most temperate, but I think we
have to tolerate it as much as possible. If they're overly rude and
blustering, just tell them, "Nobody's listening until you calm down and
talk rationally."

On the other hand, if somebody's blocked due to a formal arbitration
ban, their avenue of appeal is to Jimbo, and that can be handled by
private email. Once they've had their due process, or if they've
effectively been hard-banned some other way (Sollog comes to mind), we
can afford to be a little less lenient about allowing them to post to
the list.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Geoff Burling

body:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, David Gerard wrote:

> Whatever happens, it'll be a horrible shitfight trying to cut the majestic
> sprawl of en: Wikipedia down to a single concise volume. Say, fifty
> thousand articles. WHICH FIFTY THOUSAND?
>
> 1. Whole areas will be cut out.
> 2. Areas we're particularly good in will get cut *way* back.
> 3. Endless, fractious and bloody wars over what gets in and what doesn't.
>
> Is there a way around this which doesn't require someone making the
> decision and choosing between pissing off half the community and pissing
> off half the community?
>
Would a first step be to include every article listed at [[WP:FAC]]? As
that list currently stands, we have 1% of that 50,000 selected, & unless
we figure out a way to select the other 99% within a few years, we may
end up finding that we have 50,000 Featured Articles & render the question
of how to select moot.

I believe it's possible we could have that many featured articles in that
short of time. As a whole, EN has settled into a doubling period of about 15
months, despite hardware problems, software constraints, & the behavior
of people; unless checked by a lack of submissions & reviewers, there's no
reason why our body of Featured Articles couldn't settle into its own
doubling period too.

And if it does happen, then at least few folks in the community will decide
it's not worth throwing a fit over & can talk about how the Wiki Way has
once again solved our problem. But if you want a shitstorm, you can settle
for half of the commentators arguing that Libertarianism proved itself
thru the Bazaar, pace Eric Raymond, & the other half arguing that true
Cyber-Anarchism proved itself thru Pure Communism.

Me? I'll be happy if I can get one freaking article accepted as FAC, whether
it makes it into print or not.

Geoff


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Snowspinner

body:
>The block was illegitimate and has been removed, the block was >
placed on by someone who I had just started an arbcom
> against, who had just tried to get the arbcom deleted. That user > has continued to lie through out, this  exhange and some of his > supportes now claim I broke 3RR, but can only
> point to a place where I have not.
>
> No expanation has been put forward of why this injunction.

Can you link to a diff to prove any of those claims? If anyone says
you've been disruptive, I think today's bulk of uncertified RfC's and
the evidence from your arbcom case speak for themselves.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Irate/Evidence)
I haven't read all of it, but what I did read certainly wasn't a lie.

--MacGyverMagic


from_name: Jack Lutz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Foundation news

body: Is there any source for news occuring within Wikimedia? I read today that Jimbo expects the English Wikipedia to be ready for a 1.0 release by the end of 2005; but I read it in ZDNET, and there's not a mention of it on the actual 1.0 page, nor on the Village pump, nor on the mailing list?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
So he booted you. If you want someone to act on it you're going to
have to provide actual evidence it happened first. (Posting this
message doesn't prove anything.)

Anyway, if you feel Snowspinner is acting inappropriately, see if an
arbcom member is willing to help you out in posting a correctly
formatted RfC that's documented with linked evidence.

Spamming the mailing list isn't helping.

-- Mgm

On Apr 8, 2005 11:55 PM, Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> > YOU have been booted from #wikipedia by Snowspinner
> > (Snowspinner)
> >
> >               Yours
> >
> >               John Bradley
>
> Will someone please block this guy from the mailing
> list?
>
> RickK
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
> staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.
>
> That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)
>
> http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/04/08/1658247.shtml?tid=109&tid=95&tid=8
>
> Magnus

Wow.

If go to an Encarta article and hit "About Editing Articles" you can see
where the editors there
(http://beta.encarta.msn.com/encnet/support/encartafeedback.aspx) say
"Encarta is different from open-content encyclopedias found elsewhere on
the Web that post users' changes immediately". A not-so-subtle hint (not
that it was needed) that this feature has been brought about by Wikipedia.

Will be interesting to see how successful it is... especially since
Wikipedia is heading towards a more locked-down approach towards
offering safe versions of articles. Wonder if we will meet in the middle
somewhere?


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Spambots

body:
Tonight there have been two incidents i've noticed where mass-spambots have
been set on to the English Wikipedia. These spambots have been blanking
articles probably at a rate of 100 articles a minute, and as that is the
time it is normally taking an admin to notice and block the bots are causing
a lot of disruption.

I don't know where these bots have come from, but they seem capable of
quickly deleting content. The contributions for [[User:Whoever blocks me has
no life!]] shows what I mean.

- D. Hedley


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: "Who is Ashlee Simpson?"

body:
dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:

In my experiments, [Google's "who is"] currently _always_ uses
> Wikipedia as the reference.

Not limited to wikipedia - for example when I did

who is Horatio Nelson

I was told

Horatio Nelson
Property: ... is the greatest hero in British naval history, an honor he
earned by defeating Napoleon's fleet in ...

and I thought "hang on ; Nelson is a featured article it wouldn't have
such an unNPOV-style (be it true or not) phrase in the first line!" Sure
enough the next line says:

According to http://www.who2.com/horationelson.html

So they are testing it on a number of sites.

Pete


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: "Who is Ashlee Simpson?"

body: "Who was" also works.


from_name: Anthere

body:
Tony Sidaway a ?crit:
> Magnus Manske said:
>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>
>>You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
>>staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.
>>
>>That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)
>
>
> Searched Encarta for 'autofellatio'
>
> No results were found for your search in Encarta.

I looked at their review process... I do not see how it could work...
Eh, it reminds me of Nupedia !


body:
Pete/Pcb21 said:
> Will be interesting to see how successful it is... especially since
> Wikipedia is heading towards a more locked-down approach towards
> offering safe versions of articles.

It is?  I'm sorry I didn't read the announcement, I was too busy doing RC
patrol.


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

body:
Property can ordinarily be given away. What is needed is clear intent. If
intellectual property is somehow an exception this would need to be
demonstrated. Definitive demonstration is probably impossible but one would
look in decisions of courts of appeal such as the Supreme Court of the
United States. I doubt they or other federal courts have addressed this
issue specifically.

I don't see how the language, "I release this image into the public domain"
would fail.

If it is not sufficient by itself, estoppel would come into play. Estoppel
is the principle that if there is forseeable reliance on your representation
you can't come along later and say that what you said didn't really mean
what it seemed to.

Fred

> From: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:50:15 +0200
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD
>
> What do you guys think about this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#You_can.27t_g
> rant_your_work_into_the_public_domain?
>
> The page this editor links to doesn't seem to have all that
> authoritive sources as he claims and according to his userpage he's
> not an lawyer or something either. Should we follow this up?
>
> -- MacGyverMagic
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Fastfission a ?crit:
> I've been reading some of these 1.0 discussions for some time but I'm
> still not sure what the point of this will be. To make money? I find
> it really unlikely that anybody willing to spend money on an
> encyclopedia this day and age would do it for one compiled by
> anonymous authors online (at a site they could look at for free). The
> "people who pay for encyclopedias" market (especially since many new
> and and old computers come with encyclopedias bundled with them, which
> seem all but useless to me) would seem unlikely to overlap much  with
> the "people who would respect Wikipedia" market.

I am personnaly supportive of a 1.0.
However, I strongly support the concept of wikireaders.

The whole point of it ?
Not making money, no. Simply, trying to achieve a certain goal, give
access to information to the largest number of people on earth.

This include those without net access or even without computer access.
And all those who just do not like using such a technical plateform.

> I think a paper Wikipedia would really take out the whole point of
> what makes Wikipedia good. You lose the collective effort, the
> knowledge that if it says something that you think is wrong or poorly
> worded, you, yes YOU!, can just up and change it and you've probably
> done a good thing. That's what makes Wikipedia useful and fun -- the
> information is great, often better than other encyclopedias who will
> remain unmentioned, but isolated from the Wiki context it's just a
> 'pedia, not a Wikipedia.

Yes, but ultimately (let us try to be convince at that...), though it is
certainly an *individual* goal, this is not the global goal. The global
goal is not to have fun, nor even to "build" an encyclopedia. It is to
spread free knowledge.

> And it seems that donations seem to provide a better income source
> than selling DVDs would ever likely generate.
>
> Is it not about money? What's it about? I looks suspiciously like
> paper-envy, which is just silly. Wikipedia succeeds because it is not
> paper, because it is sprawling and often quite unconventional, because
> it uses hypertext, because it is editable. Remove any of those
> elements completely and it's just a set of quasi-reliable data served
> up by perhaps too many cooks. The second we produce a static
> Wikipedia, the second that EB blowhard will be right in his assessment
> of us.

When parts of wikipedia are subperfect, readers will benefit from having
access to them. We can perfectly have a live wikipedia, and static
versions of it.

> Wikipedia is nothing if it is static -- I don't even like to browse it
> when editing is not working; what's the point? I suddenly am
> transformed into a passive subject, just another guy watching
> television. I come to Wikipedia because it lets me be a participant,
> an editor, an active agent. I don't think I'm alone in this, I think
> it's the entire appeal which makes people want to fork over their cash
> when the donation cup comes around. It's an appeal that I think will
> always generate more money than would something as crass as a DVD
> edition.

Having stable versions will not strip you of your fun. Some will take
care of stable versions. You will have fun on the live version. But the
ultimate goal is not to garantee editors fun. It is not to make money.
It is to offer knowledge.

> That's how I see it, anyway.
>
> FF

> On Apr 8, 2005 7:26 PM, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
>>Tony Sidaway (minorityreport at bluebottle.com) [050408 23:45]:
>>
>>
>>>I don't see that it has to be that radical.  If people disagree with a
>>>particular choice of subjects, they can print and sell their own version
>>>with their own preferred choice.  It's all GFDL.  There's no need for
>>>warring, except between the people who may be putting up the money to have
>>>this project done--and I suspect this would be an outside body in any case
>>>so it's their choice, not ours.
>>
>>You do have a point there - we may do a DVD, but we probably wouldn't print
>>and distribute paper ourselves, or at least not the first version. Having
>>articles of a good rating to select from would be something a commercial
>>editorial board could actually achieve in feasible commercial time.
>>
>>
>>- d.
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

body:
I do, but I'm not trying to give legal advice, just discussing the issue.
Your reply seems to assume I think you cannot release into the public
domain. What I think I said is that I don't think there is a significant
problem, although when you look at some of the theoretical underpinnings
there are some questions. For example, there is the notion of consideration.

A contract is not binding unless both parties gave something. So, for
example, if I sign a contract to work for someone for a year without
anything at all in return the contract fails for lack of consideration.
Frequently a sum on $1.00 is specified as the selling price of a car or
piece of land that is in fact given away. It is thought that recitation is
necessary to make it legal.

What does Wikipedia (or any internet publisher) give in return for a release
of copyright? Publishing and distribution of the material.

As a practical matter, I will continue to rely on explicit written releases
of material into the public domain which I belive to be reasonable.

Fred

> From: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:30:37 +0200
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] No PD
>
> Besides, if you can't release your work into the public domain, does
> that mean the United States government and creative commons (which I
> assume to know their legal stuff) and numerous other organisations are
> all wrong in doing so?
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Fred, do you have a law degree?
>
> --Mgm
>
> On Apr 9, 2005 12:28 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>> Property can ordinarily be given away. What is needed is clear intent. If
>> intellectual property is somehow an exception this would need to be
>> demonstrated. Definitive demonstration is probably impossible but one would
>> look in decisions of courts of appeal such as the Supreme Court of the
>> United States. I doubt they or other federal courts have addressed this
>> issue specifically.
>>
>> I don't see how the language, "I release this image into the public domain"
>> would fail.
>>
>> If it is not sufficient by itself, estoppel would come into play. Estoppel
>> is the principle that if there is forseeable reliance on your representation
>> you can't come along later and say that what you said didn't really mean
>> what it seemed to.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>> From: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
>>> Reply-To: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
>>> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:50:15 +0200
>>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>>> Subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD
>>>
>>> What do you guys think about this:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#You_can.27t
>>> _g
>>> rant_your_work_into_the_public_domain?
>>>
>>> The page this editor links to doesn't seem to have all that
>>> authoritive sources as he claims and according to his userpage he's
>>> not an lawyer or something either. Should we follow this up?
>>>
>>> -- MacGyverMagic
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Kevin Rector (krector at Compco.com) [050408 23:36]:
>David Gerard:

> >Whatever happens, it'll be a horrible shitfight trying to cut the majestic
> >sprawl of en: Wikipedia down to a single concise volume. Say, fifty
> >thousand articles. WHICH FIFTY THOUSAND?
> >Is there a way around this which doesn't require someone making the
> >decision and choosing between pissing off half the community and pissing
> >off half the community?

> There is a very easy way around this, just don't do it. I won't be
> participating in a paper Wikipedia in any way whatsoever.

I fear I'm beginning to agree, barring someone coming up with a new and
elegant approach. I'm glad en: text will still fit on a single DVD!

- d.


body:
Tony Sidaway (minorityreport at bluebottle.com) [050408 23:45]:

> I don't see that it has to be that radical.  If people disagree with a
> particular choice of subjects, they can print and sell their own version
> with their own preferred choice.  It's all GFDL.  There's no need for
> warring, except between the people who may be putting up the money to have
> this project done--and I suspect this would be an outside body in any case
> so it's their choice, not ours.

You do have a point there - we may do a DVD, but we probably wouldn't print
and distribute paper ourselves, or at least not the first version. Having
articles of a good rating to select from would be something a commercial
editorial board could actually achieve in feasible commercial time.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
David 'DJ' Hedley (spyders at btinternet.com) [050409 03:28]:

> I agree with this request, his posts appear to be delibrately disruptive and
> are probably annoying a number of mailing list members. He has nothing good
> to contribute to this list.

"When in doubt, do nothing." The wikien-l admins are basically reluctant to
actively administer the list membership, as that would quickly start to
become work. Our main job is actually to filter the spam for posts from
humans. We'll see if Irate calms down a little.

- d.


from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Foundation news

body:
The main page of the Foundation website
<http://wikimediafoundation.org/> and the Quarto newsletter
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto> are other good
sources for Foundation news. There is also a Foundation-news mailing
list for announcements
<http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-news-l>, though
that might be being used only for Quarto-related announcements, and so
far hasn't been used at all.

Angela.


subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

body:
What do you guys think about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#You_can.27t_grant_your_work_into_the_public_domain?

The page this editor links to doesn't seem to have all that
authoritive sources as he claims and according to his userpage he's
not an lawyer or something either. Should we follow this up?

-- MacGyverMagic


from_name: blankfaze

subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

body:
On Apr 9, 2005 3:50 AM, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What do you guys think about this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#You_can.27t_grant_your_work_into_the_public_domain
> ?
>
> The page this editor links to doesn't seem to have all that
> authoritive sources as he claims and according to his userpage he's
> not an lawyer or something either. Should we follow this up?
>
> -- MacGyverMagic
>
>
I think it's totally bullshit, and it kind-of pisses me off that he's gone
around to ALL the PD templates and messed with them.

--
! blankfaze
*the good times
are killing me*


body:
Of course he's allowed to post, but Irate is posting a whole bunch of
messages all regarding the same issue while accusing people without
adding evidence.

- MacGyverMagic

On Apr 9, 2005 8:15 AM, Michael Snow <wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
>
> >David 'DJ' Hedley (spyders at btinternet.com) [050409 03:28]:
> >
> >
> >>I agree with this request, his posts appear to be delibrately disruptive and
> >>are probably annoying a number of mailing list members. He has nothing good
> >>to contribute to this list.
> >>
> >>
> >"When in doubt, do nothing." The wikien-l admins are basically reluctant to
> >actively administer the list membership, as that would quickly start to
> >become work. Our main job is actually to filter the spam for posts from
> >humans. We'll see if Irate calms down a little.
> >
> >
> Keep in mind also that this is where we tell people to go if they get
> blocked, so that they have some avenue of appeal. Naturally, in such
> situations their posts may not be the most temperate, but I think we
> have to tolerate it as much as possible. If they're overly rude and
> blustering, just tell them, "Nobody's listening until you calm down and
> talk rationally."
>
> On the other hand, if somebody's blocked due to a formal arbitration
> ban, their avenue of appeal is to Jimbo, and that can be handled by
> private email. Once they've had their due process, or if they've
> effectively been hard-banned some other way (Sollog comes to mind), we
> can afford to be a little less lenient about allowing them to post to
> the list.
>
> --Michael Snow
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Geoff Burling wrote:

>On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, David Gerard wrote:
>
>
>>Whatever happens, it'll be a horrible shitfight trying to cut the majestic
>>sprawl of en: Wikipedia down to a single concise volume. Say, fifty
>>thousand articles. WHICH FIFTY THOUSAND?
>>
>>1. Whole areas will be cut out.
>>2. Areas we're particularly good in will get cut *way* back.
>>3. Endless, fractious and bloody wars over what gets in and what doesn't.
>>
>>Is there a way around this which doesn't require someone making the
>>decision and choosing between pissing off half the community and pissing
>>off half the community?
>>
>>
>Would a first step be to include every article listed at [[WP:FAC]]? As
>that list currently stands, we have 1% of that 50,000 selected, & unless
>we figure out a way to select the other 99% within a few years, we may
>end up finding that we have 50,000 Featured Articles & render the question
>of how to select moot.
>
>I believe it's possible we could have that many featured articles in that
>short of time. As a whole, EN has settled into a doubling period of about 15
>months, despite hardware problems, software constraints, & the behavior
>of people; unless checked by a lack of submissions & reviewers, there's no
>reason why our body of Featured Articles couldn't settle into its own
>doubling period too.
>
>And if it does happen, then at least few folks in the community will decide
>it's not worth throwing a fit over & can talk about how the Wiki Way has
>once again solved our problem. But if you want a shitstorm, you can settle
>for half of the commentators arguing that Libertarianism proved itself
>thru the Bazaar, pace Eric Raymond, & the other half arguing that true
>Cyber-Anarchism proved itself thru Pure Communism.
>
>Me? I'll be happy if I can get one freaking article accepted as FAC, whether
>it makes it into print or not.
>
I think it's important to remember that we are talking about a first
edition.  That does not need to have everything, or even to cover all
subjects.  Many topics can be expanded in future editions.  The first
edition should emphasize those areas where we have the best
representation, and where there are fewest holes that need to be
filled.  Having something in your hand that you can build on will be a
great encouragement for everybody.  As things stand on this topic I
think there are too many people sitting around dreaming of perfection.
Perfectionism is also a big problem in the education of gifted children.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Foundation news

body:
Christopher Larberg a ?crit:
> On Apr 8, 2005 10:08 PM, Jack Lutz <jack-lutz at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Is there any source for news occuring within Wikimedia? I read today that Jimbo expects the English Wikipedia to be ready for a 1.0 release by the end of 2005; but I read it in ZDNET, and there's not a mention of it on the actual 1.0 page, nor on the Village pump, nor on the mailing list?
>
>
> I was under the impression that Foundation news was collected on Meta.
> Try http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_News and
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Goings-on.
>
> --Slowking Man

I would not rely on these two ones too much.
I have no time any more to update them, and I think Ang does not either
As she said, we try to update now the news on the foundation website.
And the Quarto is there to summarize news four times per year.

The announcement list was just set up very recently (2 weeks I think),
so is still in setting up stage (but please register).

4th place to get information is simply here.

I am personally trying to put the official information more on the wmf
site than on meta now, to try to convey the habit that official
information is to be found on wmf, while meta, freely editable, is more
work into progress and often a lot of speculations... and though in
interesting source (I love meta :-)) should not be necessarily
considered an authority source for information....

As things are, none of these four places are reporting official attempts
to push for 1.0. As far as I am aware, it is mostly that Jimbo
participated to interviews in the past days and mentionned this.

ant


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Foundation news

body:
> 4th place to get information is simply here.

Or, more likely, the Foundation-l list
<http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l>.

> As things are, none of these four places are reporting official attempts
> to push for 1.0. As far as I am aware, it is mostly that Jimbo
> participated to interviews in the past days and mentionned this.

I think Jimbo's comments were more a reflection of the work going on
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pushing_to_1.0 and in other
places, which suggest a print version *might be* possible this year,
rather than an announcement of any definite plan.

Angela.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh look the evil spreads.

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm (macgyvermagic at gmail.com) [050409 08:23]:

> Anyway, if you feel Snowspinner is acting inappropriately, see if an
> arbcom member is willing to help you out in posting a correctly
> formatted RfC that's documented with linked evidence.
> Spamming the mailing list isn't helping.

A few people have been trashtalking Snowspinner at length but conspicuously
failing to put up evidence when directly requested. He's getting sick of
it. I suspect if someone wanted to put an RFC together, he'd help out
himself ;-)

- d.


from_name: elwp at gmx.de

subject: [Wikitech-l] (kein Betreff)

body:
Download of large files doesn't work for me, e.g.

http://download.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/20050406_old_table.sql.gz.ab

=>

500 Internal Error
There was an unusual problem serving the requested URL
'/wikipedia/de/20050406_old_table.sql.gz.ab'.

--
Handyrechnung zu hoch? Tipp: SMS und MMS mit GMX
Seien Sie so frei: Alle Infos unter http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freesms


subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

body:
Besides, if you can't release your work into the public domain, does
that mean the United States government and creative commons (which I
assume to know their legal stuff) and numerous other organisations are
all wrong in doing so?

I don't think so.

Fred, do you have a law degree?

--Mgm

On Apr 9, 2005 12:28 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> Property can ordinarily be given away. What is needed is clear intent. If
> intellectual property is somehow an exception this would need to be
> demonstrated. Definitive demonstration is probably impossible but one would
> look in decisions of courts of appeal such as the Supreme Court of the
> United States. I doubt they or other federal courts have addressed this
> issue specifically.
>
> I don't see how the language, "I release this image into the public domain"
> would fail.
>
> If it is not sufficient by itself, estoppel would come into play. Estoppel
> is the principle that if there is forseeable reliance on your representation
> you can't come along later and say that what you said didn't really mean
> what it seemed to.
>
> Fred
>
> > From: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> > Reply-To: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> > <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:50:15 +0200
> > To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD
> >
> > What do you guys think about this:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#You_can.27t_g
> > rant_your_work_into_the_public_domain?
> >
> > The page this editor links to doesn't seem to have all that
> > authoritive sources as he claims and according to his userpage he's
> > not an lawyer or something either. Should we follow this up?
> >
> > -- MacGyverMagic
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: "releasing into the public domain"

body:
I am very most certainly not a lawyer.

It seems to me any scenario in which there could be actual serious ugly
monetary _trouble_ as a result of using something after the rights
holder says "I release this into the public domain" must involve such
an _extremely_ long chain of _extremely_ improbable circumstances that
it can't possibly be worth worrying about.

I was planning to say that it was far more likely that we'd get into
trouble for using that 14th century Image:Micky.jpg to illustrate our
Mickey Mouse article. ("Your honor, in itself this image would not be
under copyright, but when used to illustrate an article about Mickey it
is clearly functioning as a derivative work of our copyrighted
Mickey...")

However on checking out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Mouse

I see that as I write this it is adorned with several _excellent_
likenesses of the "real" Mickey, images with helpful edit comments like
"This is a screenshot of a copyrighted movie or television program. It
is believed that screenshots may be exhibited on Wikipedia under the
fair use provision of United States copyright law."

Even better, the leadoff portrait, Image:Mickeyhandships.gif, contains
this useful image description

"Hey bros hows it hanging im jessica im 15 and i live in palmerston
north i go to feilding high school collage which is a pretty good skool
but skool sux write back love Jess
jessicavanderlee at feildinghigh.school.nz"

Let's worry about REAL problems.

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Violet/Riga

subject: [WikiEN-l] Replacing {{fac}} {{pr}} {{featured}} etc...

body:
Looking at some article talk pages you can see various different
templates of all colours, shapes and sizes.  To me, and I know I'm
picky about such things, it can look a little ugly.  I've therefore
tried to come up with a solution that looks neater, can deal with
multiple instances of the same tag (ie. more than one FAC nomination)
and isn't any more complicated.

Obviously switching to a new system would be difficult, so I've tried
to make it so that we can update the templates and not all the
articles that use them.  Now it needs some input, so I'd really
appreciate people going along to the test area (linked to below) and
commenting about the idea.

[[User talk:Violetriga/statusdevelopment]]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Violetriga/statusdevelopment

Thanks
~~~~ Violet/Riga


subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

body:
The person who said this, mentioned PD stuff can't have a copyright
holder, so even if you release for free use, technically you're still
the copyright holder. (Am I making sense). Surely anyone can release
stuff as they wish?

Mgm

On Apr 9, 2005 2:08 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> I do, but I'm not trying to give legal advice, just discussing the issue.
> Your reply seems to assume I think you cannot release into the public
> domain. What I think I said is that I don't think there is a significant
> problem, although when you look at some of the theoretical underpinnings
> there are some questions. For example, there is the notion of consideration.
>
> A contract is not binding unless both parties gave something. So, for
> example, if I sign a contract to work for someone for a year without
> anything at all in return the contract fails for lack of consideration.
> Frequently a sum on $1.00 is specified as the selling price of a car or
> piece of land that is in fact given away. It is thought that recitation is
> necessary to make it legal.
>
> What does Wikipedia (or any internet publisher) give in return for a release
> of copyright? Publishing and distribution of the material.
>
> As a practical matter, I will continue to rely on explicit written releases
> of material into the public domain which I belive to be reasonable.
>
> Fred
>
> > From: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> > Reply-To: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> > <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:30:37 +0200
> > To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] No PD
> >
> > Besides, if you can't release your work into the public domain, does
> > that mean the United States government and creative commons (which I
> > assume to know their legal stuff) and numerous other organisations are
> > all wrong in doing so?
> >
> > I don't think so.
> >
> > Fred, do you have a law degree?
> >
> > --Mgm
> >
> > On Apr 9, 2005 12:28 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> >> Property can ordinarily be given away. What is needed is clear intent. If
> >> intellectual property is somehow an exception this would need to be
> >> demonstrated. Definitive demonstration is probably impossible but one would
> >> look in decisions of courts of appeal such as the Supreme Court of the
> >> United States. I doubt they or other federal courts have addressed this
> >> issue specifically.
> >>
> >> I don't see how the language, "I release this image into the public domain"
> >> would fail.
> >>
> >> If it is not sufficient by itself, estoppel would come into play. Estoppel
> >> is the principle that if there is forseeable reliance on your representation
> >> you can't come along later and say that what you said didn't really mean
> >> what it seemed to.
> >>
> >> Fred
> >>
> >>> From: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> >>> Reply-To: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> >>> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:50:15 +0200
> >>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> >>> Subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD
> >>>
> >>> What do you guys think about this:
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#You_can.27t
> >>> _g
> >>> rant_your_work_into_the_public_domain?
> >>>
> >>> The page this editor links to doesn't seem to have all that
> >>> authoritive sources as he claims and according to his userpage he's
> >>> not an lawyer or something either. Should we follow this up?
> >>>
> >>> -- MacGyverMagic
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

>The person who said this, mentioned PD stuff can't have a copyright
>holder, so even if you release for free use, technically you're still
>the copyright holder. (Am I making sense). Surely anyone can release
>stuff as they wish?
>
>
I make a subtle distinction when it comes to defining public domain.

Rather than to say that a copyright in the public domain is owned by
nobody, I would prefer to say that it is owned by the public.  Thus
defending public domain copyrights becomes defending the rights of
everyone to use that material.  US law does provide for a $2500 fine
when someone claims a copyright that is not his, but I don't know if
that has ever been enforced.  I see defending public rights as a
fundamental obligation of a republican form of government.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>MacGyverMagic/Mgm said:
>
>
>>The person who said this, mentioned PD stuff can't have a copyright
>>holder, so even if you release for free use, technically you're still
>>the copyright holder. (Am I making sense). Surely anyone can release
>>stuff as they wish?
>>
>>
>Yes.  You have complete control over the property unless and until you
>assign licenses to others.  Then you and they are bound by those licenses.
> This is only relevant if, for instance, you've had a book published and
>gave the publisher a distribution license for Canada.  If you then tell a
>Canadian that they can print the book for free, this may (or may not,
>depending on how the law sees it and how the licenses work) conflict with
>the distribution license and the Canadian may get into trouble for that
>even though he has your personal permission. I am not a lawyer and I don't
>mind getting my face slapped by someone who is if I give bad advice.
>
I don't see that the Canadian reprinter would be the one in trouble as
long as he can prove that you gave him permission.  You may have a
problem with your distributor for breach of contract.

Ec


from_name: GerardM

subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject)

body:
Hoi,

This is a request that has been waiting for an answer now for a month.
Personally I am of the opinion that we should positively answer this
request. Sander Spek is one of the most respected Dutch wikipedians, he
is the one mentoring Frank Schepers. If there is a need for extra surity
for the privacy of the table, we can ask for some acknowledgment that it
will be used only and exclusively for the use of this research.

Thanks,
GerardM
-------------------------------------------------
Frank Schepers
Keelstraat 5a
3770 Vroenhoven ? Riemst (Belgium)
0032 ? 498 ? 365280

Hello,

I'm a last year student Knowledge Engineering/Computer Science of the
faculty of General
Sciences at the University of Maastricht. The subject of the Master
Thesis I'm working
on is: "Personalization of the WikiWikiWeb". On the Dutch Wikipedia I
have an account with
the nickname frankschepers, but I don't have edited articles yet. My
supervisor is prof.
dr. Jaap van den Herik. My daily advisor will be drs. Sander Spek, who
is a frequent editor
on the Dutch Wikipedia site and who came up with the subject of this
Master thesis. The
thesis will contain a theoretical and a practical part. In the
theoretical part various
methods of personalization will be examined and their applicability on
Wiki's.
In the practical part, I will make an extension for the wikimedia
software. This will be
an article recommender system. This system will display for a
Wikipedian, who has a watch
list, some articles that aren't on his watch list, but though are
interesting for him.
If it is possible to create a good working recommender system, this will
improve the quality
of the articles on Wikipedia because more interested users will
read/edit the article.

So I will evaluate if personalization can be applied in an effective
way on Wiki's.
For this research I need a database dump of the watchlist table. This
table cannot be downloaded
from http://download.wikimedia.org/archives/nl/ because of some privacy
issues I suppose.

So my question is, if it is possible to get a database dump of the watch
list table.

If you require any further information, feel free to contact me.

Kind regards,

Frank


subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject)


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Spambots

body:
David 'DJ' Hedley wrote:
> Tonight there have been two incidents i've noticed where mass-spambots have
> been set on to the English Wikipedia. These spambots have been blanking
> articles probably at a rate of 100 articles a minute, and as that is the
> time it is normally taking an admin to notice and block the bots are causing
> a lot of disruption.
>
> I don't know where these bots have come from, but they seem capable of
> quickly deleting content. The contributions for [[User:Whoever blocks me has
> no life!]] shows what I mean.

That's a vandalbot, not a spambot. They come from sad, morally vacuous
people who are jealous of what we have achieved and want the whole world
to be as empty as their own life. As opposed to a spambot which is
written by people who want to make a bit of money, and who rationalise
away the ethical problems with their chosen method.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Spambots

body:
> Tim Starling wrote:
> > David 'DJ' Hedley wrote:
> >
> >>Tonight there have been two incidents i've noticed where mass-spambots
have
> >>been set on to the English Wikipedia. These spambots have been blanking
> >>articles probably at a rate of 100 articles a minute, and as that is the
> >>time it is normally taking an admin to notice and block the bots are
causing
> >>a lot of disruption.
> >>
> >>I don't know where these bots have come from, but they seem capable of
> >>quickly deleting content. The contributions for [[User:Whoever blocks me
has
> >>no life!]] shows what I mean.
> >
> >
> > That's a vandalbot, not a spambot. They come from sad, morally vacuous
> > people who are jealous of what we have achieved and want the whole world
> > to be as empty as their own life. As opposed to a spambot which is
> > written by people who want to make a bit of money, and who rationalise
> > away the ethical problems with their chosen method.
> >
>
> OK I take that back. I count 30 edits per minute not 100, which is
> pretty typical for a page blanking spree with just a browser. So that
> means the vandal is probably more bored and mischievious than depraved.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
I was watching the recent changes IRC room. The edits were flooding the room
at times, then the bot was stopping, then flooding again. I imagine it was
actually a bot doing it, not a human, and obviously it was blocked quickly.
It was going at a rapid rate, too fast for a browser user.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Spambots

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> David 'DJ' Hedley wrote:
>
>>Tonight there have been two incidents i've noticed where mass-spambots have
>>been set on to the English Wikipedia. These spambots have been blanking
>>articles probably at a rate of 100 articles a minute, and as that is the
>>time it is normally taking an admin to notice and block the bots are causing
>>a lot of disruption.
>>
>>I don't know where these bots have come from, but they seem capable of
>>quickly deleting content. The contributions for [[User:Whoever blocks me has
>>no life!]] shows what I mean.
>
>
> That's a vandalbot, not a spambot. They come from sad, morally vacuous
> people who are jealous of what we have achieved and want the whole world
> to be as empty as their own life. As opposed to a spambot which is
> written by people who want to make a bit of money, and who rationalise
> away the ethical problems with their chosen method.
>

OK I take that back. I count 30 edits per minute not 100, which is
pretty typical for a page blanking spree with just a browser. So that
means the vandal is probably more bored and mischievious than depraved.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Joseph Osborne

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Spambots

body:
Is that why some one put Pope Andrew XXIII and Pope Peter II on the list of Popes? Their has never been a Pope Andrew are Peter at least they could have used reail names?

Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:Tim Starling wrote:
> David 'DJ' Hedley wrote:
>
>>Tonight there have been two incidents i've noticed where mass-spambots have
>>been set on to the English Wikipedia. These spambots have been blanking
>>articles probably at a rate of 100 articles a minute, and as that is the
>>time it is normally taking an admin to notice and block the bots are causing
>>a lot of disruption.
>>
>>I don't know where these bots have come from, but they seem capable of
>>quickly deleting content. The contributions for [[User:Whoever blocks me has
>>no life!]] shows what I mean.
>
>
> That's a vandalbot, not a spambot. They come from sad, morally vacuous
> people who are jealous of what we have achieved and want the whole world
> to be as empty as their own life. As opposed to a spambot which is
> written by people who want to make a bit of money, and who rationalise
> away the ethical problems with their chosen method.
>

OK I take that back. I count 30 edits per minute not 100, which is
pretty typical for a page blanking spree with just a browser. So that
means the vandal is probably more bored and mischievious than depraved.

-- Tim Starling

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Fastfission

body:
On Apr 9, 2005 2:21 PM, dpbsmith at verizon.net <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
 > Let's worry about REAL problems.

A 15 year old's obvious vandalism/test edit of a Mickey Mouse image
caption from four days ago is a REAL problem? Color me amused.

FF


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] No PD

references:
<fb7fdd9c0504090430499889f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE7D21EB.DFAA%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<fb7fdd9c05040906485047aa31@mail.gmail.com>

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm said:
> The person who said this, mentioned PD stuff can't have a copyright
> holder, so even if you release for free use, technically you're still
> the copyright holder. (Am I making sense). Surely anyone can release
> stuff as they wish?

Yes.  You have complete control over the property unless and until you
assign licenses to others.  Then you and they are bound by those licenses.
 This is only relevant if, for instance, you've had a book published and
gave the publisher a distribution license for Canada.  If you then tell a
Canadian that they can print the book for free, this may (or may not,
depending on how the law sees it and how the licenses work) conflict with
the distribution license and the Canadian may get into trouble for that
even though he has your personal permission. I am not a lawyer and I don't
mind getting my face slapped by someone who is if I give bad advice.


body:
Alphax wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I think it's important to remember that we are talking about a first
>> edition.  That does not need to have everything, or even to cover all
>> subjects.  Many topics can be expanded in future editions.  The first
>> edition should emphasize those areas where we have the best
>> representation, and where there are fewest holes that need to be filled.
>
> <snip>
>
> What should future editions be numbered? What will the final edition
> be? Wikipedia version e?

Huh?  I said nothing about numbering them. . I used "first edition" in a
purely descriptive manner.

Ec


body:
Alphax wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>> Alphax wrote:
>>
>>> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it's important to remember that we are talking about a
>>>> first edition.  That does not need to have everything, or even to
>>>> cover all subjects.  Many topics can be expanded in future
>>>> editions.  The first edition should emphasize those areas where we
>>>> have the best representation, and where there are fewest holes that
>>>> need to be filled.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> What should future editions be numbered? What will the final edition
>>> be? Wikipedia version e?
>>
>> Huh?  I said nothing about numbering them. . I used "first edition"
>> in a purely descriptive manner.
>>
>> Ec
>
> Well, there's a lot of consensus towards a Wikipedia 1.0, so I was
> wondering how many editions there would be.

That number would likely be open ended. with each edition being better
than its predecessor.  Errors could be fixed, subject areas expanded,
and especially current events could be added in.  I tend to prefer
shorter press runs to avoid having a lot of out-of-date inventory on hand.

Ec


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Problems with sending mail and the use of arrays
	with	categories

body:
GerardM wrote:
> Hoi,
> I am registered to the list, I could send mail using my thunderbird
> application. Now I cannot. I can send mail through the webmail
> facility of gmail.

Can you elaborate on this? Some details would help:

* What's the ISP you're sending through that doesn't work?
* What's the email address?
* What's the hostname of the mail server?
* What exactly happens?
* Are your mails rejected?
* Any bounce messages?
* Are your messages accepted but queued for moderation?
* Do they vanish without trace?
* Can you provide a sample message that you tried to send? (Including
headers and any automated response if possible.)

> I use several mail accounts and the only thing I can think off is that
> my IP-number was blocked as I have used the wrong account to send
> stuff to the mailinglist.  If this is so, there must be a way to
> unblock such an IP-number.

What makes you think this? Did someone tell it to you? What IP address?
Where was it blocked, by whom?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050410/7be8e021/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Dennis Schaaf

subject: [Wikitech-l] Category array

body:
Hi,

I'm trying to play around with the category page a little bit. Everything would
be a lot easier if I could just somehow get an array with all pages listed in
category x. Can you guys give me some hints on how to create such a function?
Unfortunately the databaselayout does not talk about categorylinks.

cheers,

dennis


subject: [Wikitech-l] Lucene search

body:
Kate's Lucene-based search server is now up and running experimentally
to cover searches on en.wikipedia.org. It's compiled with GCJ, so it's
not polluted by any of that dirty icky not-quite-free Sun Java VM stuff. ;)

For those of you new to the game, Lucene is a text search engine written
in Java, sponsored by the Apache project: http://lucene.apache.org/
Using a separate search server like this instead of MySQL's fulltext
index lets us take some load off the main databases.

To compare our options I did an experimental port to C# using dotlucene;
some benchmarking showed that while the C# version running on Mono
outpaced the Java version on GCJ for building the index, Java+GCJ did
better on actual searches (even surpassing Sun's Java in some tests).
Since searches are more time-critical (as long as updates can keep up
with the rate of edits), we'll probably stick with Java.

More info at:
* http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/9608.html
* http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Brion_VIBBER/MWDaemon

At the moment the drop-down suggest-while-you-type box is disabled as
GCJ and BerkeleyDB Java Edition really don't get along. I'll either hack
  it to use the native library version of BDB or just rewrite the title
prefix matcher to use a different backend.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050410/52c64522/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Richard Holton

subject: [Wikitech-l] Category array

body:
On 4/9/05, Dennis Schaaf <dennis.schaaf at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm trying to play around with the category page a little bit. Everything would
> be a lot easier if I could just somehow get an array with all pages listed in
> category x. Can you guys give me some hints on how to create such a function?
> Unfortunately the databaselayout does not talk about categorylinks.
>
Dennis,

cl_to is the name of the category.
cl_from is the id of the page that belongs to that category -- matches cur_id
cl_sortkey gives the page name that should be used when sorting the
category list.

So,
SELECT cl_from FROM categoryLinks WHERE cl_to="Albania"
will return a table with the cur_id's for all pages in category Albania

-- Rich Holton

[[W:en:User:Rholton]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Category array

body:
On 4/10/05, Richard Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/9/05, Dennis Schaaf <dennis.schaaf at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm trying to play around with the category page a little bit. Everything would
> > be a lot easier if I could just somehow get an array with all pages listed in
> > category x. Can you guys give me some hints on how to create such a function?
> > Unfortunately the databaselayout does not talk about categorylinks.
> >
> Dennis,
>
> cl_to is the name of the category.
> cl_from is the id of the page that belongs to that category -- matches cur_id
> cl_sortkey gives the page name that should be used when sorting the
> category list.
>
> So,
> SELECT cl_from FROM categoryLinks WHERE cl_to="Albania"
> will return a table with the cur_id's for all pages in category Albania
>
> -- Rich Holton
>
> [[W:en:User:Rholton]]
>

Also, as GeraldM points out in a separate thread, if you're looking to
do this for a large installation like Wikipedia, some categories may
grow quite large--perhaps into 10's of thousands of pages (think of
category:stub).  So, depending on how and where you want to use this,
PHP arrays may be impractical.

-Rich Holton

--

[[W:en:User:Rholton]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Category array

body:
>
> Also, as GeraldM points out in a separate thread, if you're looking to
> do this for a large installation like Wikipedia, some categories may
> grow quite large--perhaps into 10's of thousands of pages (think of
> category:stub).  So, depending on how and where you want to use this,
> PHP arrays may be impractical.
>
OK, I really shoud wait til I'm fully awake...it was GerardM,not
GeraldM. Gerard, please forgive me!

-- Rich Holton

[[W:en:User:Rholton]]


from_name: Kate Turner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: Spambots

body:
David 'DJ' Hedley wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english:

>> OK I take that back. I count 30 edits per minute not 100, which is
>> pretty typical for a page blanking spree with just a browser. So that
>> means the vandal is probably more bored and mischievious than depraved.

> I was watching the recent changes IRC room. The edits were flooding the
> room at times, then the bot was stopping, then flooding again. I imagine
> it was actually a bot doing it, not a human, and obviously it was blocked
> quickly. It was going at a rapid rate, too fast for a browser user.

that's quite consistent with someone loading some edit pages in browser
tabs, submitting them all at once, and then loading a few more.  i've done
it before myself, though for slightly more legitimite purposes...

kate.


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Problems with sending mail and the use of arrays with
	categories

body:
Hoi,
I am registered to the list, I could send mail using my thunderbird
application. Now I cannot. I can send mail through the webmail
facility of gmail.

I have asked on several IRC channels what is happening. I am getting
annoyed by this as there is no answer as to what is happening and,
there is therefore no solution imminent.

I use several mail accounts and the only thing I can think off is that
my IP-number was blocked as I have used the wrong account to send
stuff to the mailinglist.  If this is so, there must be a way to
unblock such an IP-number.

NB
I wanted to warn for the use of arrays with categories. Some
categories have multiple thousands of entries. Over time many of these
will have multiple tens of thousands of entries so using arrays will
be costly.

Thanks,
   GerardM


from_name: Robert Brockway

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Walking like an Egyptian?

body:
Does the article "Walking like an Egyptian"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_like_an_Egyptian) actually have a
point?  Does anyone seriously believe that ancient Egyptians may have
walked in a particularly odd fashion (as the article seems to imply).  I
was considering editing it but the whole thing seems a bit pointless.  As
a Wikipedia newbie I'm not sure how to mark an article as a candidate for
deletion (if indeed I can) and wanted to see what others thought of this
article.

As an aside I was in Cairo some years ago and was having particular
trouble getting across one of the roads near Tahir Square one day.  A kind
Egyptian gentleman approached my travelling companion and I and offered to
help us across.  The exchange (in English) went something like this:

Him: "To get across this road you must walk like an Egyptian".

I was immediately reminded of Pat Benatar and wondered where he was going
with this.

Me: "How do you mean?"

Him: "Close your eyes, step out and pray to Allah."

As soon as he said this we stepped out on to the road.  As you can see I
survived in order to be able to contribute to Wikipedia :)

Rob

--
Robert Brockway B.Sc.
Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd.
Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Email: rbrockway at opentrend.net http://www.opentrend.net
OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems.
Contributing Member of Software in the Public Interest (http://www.spi-inc.org)


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Problems with sending mail and the use of arrays
	with categories

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> GerardM wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> I am registered to the list, I could send mail using my thunderbird
>> application. Now I cannot. I can send mail through the webmail
>> facility of gmail.
>
>
> Can you elaborate on this? Some details would help:
>
> * What's the ISP you're sending through that doesn't work?

I am using gmail with pop support

> * What's the email address?

gerard.meijssen at gmail.com

> * What's the hostname of the mail server?

pop.gmail.com

> * What exactly happens?

I push the send button and I get a message saying "an error has
occurred while sending mail. The mail server responded: you are not
allowed to send mail to <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org> Please verify that
your mail adress is correct in your mail preferences & try again"

> * Are your mails rejected?

Yes

> * Any bounce messages?

See above

> * Are your messages accepted but queued for moderation?

No

> * Do they vanish without trace?

They do not progress any further

> * Can you provide a sample message that you tried to send? (Including
> headers and any automated response if possible.)

I will try to send this one as a reply .. That does not work, however
I can send a reply from within the webmail client. Now the thing is I
have always been able to send mail through my Thunderbird
installation. It is only since a couple of days that I have problems
both with Wikitech and Foundation.

>
>> I use several mail accounts and the only thing I can think off is that
>> my IP-number was blocked as I have used the wrong account to send
>> stuff to the mailinglist.  If this is so, there must be a way to
>> unblock such an IP-number.
>
>
> What makes you think this? Did someone tell it to you? What IP address?
> Where was it blocked, by whom?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Thanks Brion :)

The e-mail adress is the one I am sending this from


from_name: Jack Lutz

subject: [Foundation-l] privacy policy

body: Typo, "Security of information":  Wikimedia Founadtion


subject: [Foundation-l] privacy policy


from_name: Alphax

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

<snip>

> I think it's important to remember that we are talking about a first
> edition.  That does not need to have everything, or even to cover all
> subjects.  Many topics can be expanded in future editions.  The first
> edition should emphasize those areas where we have the best
> representation, and where there are fewest holes that need to be filled.

<snip>

What should future editions be numbered? What will the final edition be?
Wikipedia version e?

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject: [Wikitech-l] Image metadata in database

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> In 1.5 (assuming there are no objections), image width, height and bit
> depth will be available in the image table of the database.

Yayyyyyyy!

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050410/d4d2d36d/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Tels

subject: [Wikitech-l] allow <style> on http://meta.wikimedia.org ?

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Moin,

would it possible to allow the <style> tag on meta.wikimedia.org?

That would make the examples at:

	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Graph_extension

work correctly.

Best wishes,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Sun Apr 10 13:08:42 2005 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "Hi, hi, hitotai, space taxi to the sky"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iQEVAwUBQlkMKHcLPEOTuEwVAQHHlwf8CyvyVvLxe/TbwEN7wd3Yf+o/Jxr6wUA8
8Ouen88kfFRUHTmKlyJewoatwxR8Vt7imd51QG+gi45utGYigGMBggTWT3FBSCxB
6nO+XC7mJ/Tyi3y9l5akv+mtJP5LS7pTuKSwSrW4magXN1GuL+z1H0cVIWXJLbZM
O70pYUjjiz7URBBKT/cxqOb1Pnv5sBLQktxLXYhc42e8GsbKSEBRhaDPrTt+UmB7
fMGaMH0GbfDjrrQRBKHP9/6xFzcQwLUgud4h2b0yjSkEbipDiJjn5DfS5ZBzOfAR
5FbsKQQPJZBDXqeqZtGcqrPStRX3/5wCGbwye+VqmwXl/cd9et9ZYw==
=2ITy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Jonah Bossewitch

subject: [Wikitech-l] Lucene search

body:
This is really neat.

I see from the wiki page that you have looked at PyLucene, but are you
considering reapplying their strategy of wrapping the gcj using SWIG?  It
looks like swig can now generate php bindings as well, leaving you with
native, php access to the lucene apis.  PHPLucene?

This might be precisely how you were planning on accessing the gcj lucene,
but I wasn't sure.  After seeing a presentation on PyLucene at PyCon, I
think the PyLucene people would be interested in seeing (maybe even helping)
their project expand beyond just python bindings.

best,
Jonah

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>
To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:17 AM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Lucene search

> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Dori

subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject)

body:
On Apr 9, 2005 10:35 AM, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
>
> This is a request that has been waiting for an answer now for a month.
> Personally I am of the opinion that we should positively answer this
> request. Sander Spek is one of the most respected Dutch wikipedians, he
> is the one mentoring Frank Schepers. If there is a need for extra surity
> for the privacy of the table, we can ask for some acknowledgment that it
> will be used only and exclusively for the use of this research.

Is there any reason he can't just come up with a random watchlist for made
up users? I guess the table could be given out with scrambled usernames, but
I wouldn't like the watchlist tables to be given out otherwise.


subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject)


from_name: Matthew Li

subject: [WikiEN-l] Protest againt blocking

body:
My IP has been blocked by RickK. The reason he gave me is repeated
vandalism. According to what I have read in the blocking policy, vandalism
exists only if the user edited a significant portion of an article into
profanity or offensive contents or deleted the article. I never did any of
those. I just merely erased the dispute template on the article "Nanjing
Massacre". Even if this is "vandalism", how is it a "repeated vandalism"? I
have only done once! I erased the template in the article because the
article itself should not be disputed. I have posted comments in the
disscussion page in the same article and people agreed with me. Unless the
Wikipedia administrator is trying to repress voices that they don't like to
hear, there is no reason why I should be blocked. If you don't like what I
am doing, reply my comment or even send me a warning not to repeat what I
have done. However, I have received none of those. If I am blocked merely
because of the administrator don't like my opinion, then you are repressing
the democratic voices of the people and shame on you!

AquaExecution, 2:11pm, 10 April, 2005


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation Internal Radio System (Re:
	Foundation news)

body:
--- Walter Vermeir <walter at wikipedia.be> wrote:
> Not a real internet radio. Only one "program" of a couple of minutes
> every week. That is important, that there is always on a fix date a new
> version. If not it will be dead very soon.

Heh - Jimbo could have is weekly radio address right after GWB. :)

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Alphax wrote:
>
>> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I think it's important to remember that we are talking about a first
>>> edition.  That does not need to have everything, or even to cover
>>> all subjects.  Many topics can be expanded in future editions.  The
>>> first edition should emphasize those areas where we have the best
>>> representation, and where there are fewest holes that need to be
>>> filled.
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> What should future editions be numbered? What will the final edition
>> be? Wikipedia version e?
>
>
> Huh?  I said nothing about numbering them. . I used "first edition" in
> a purely descriptive manner.
>
> Ec

Well, there's a lot of consensus towards a Wikipedia 1.0, so I was
wondering how many editions there would be.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject: [WikiEN-l] Protest againt blocking

body:
Yes, the first one is mine, but the last two about the mixed martial arts is
not me.

>From: Elisabeth Bauer <elian at djini.de>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Protest againt blocking
>Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:28:07 +0200
>
>Hello,
>
>Matthew Li wrote:
>>My IP has been blocked by RickK. The reason he gave me is repeated
>>vandalism. According to what I have read in the blocking policy, vandalism
>>exists only if the user edited a significant portion of an article into
>>profanity or offensive contents or deleted the article. I never did any of
>>those. I just merely erased the dispute template on the article "Nanjing
>>Massacre". Even if this is "vandalism", how is it a "repeated vandalism"?
>>I have only done once! I erased the template in the article because the
>>article itself should not be disputed. I have posted comments in the
>>disscussion page in the same article and people agreed with me. Unless the
>>Wikipedia administrator is trying to repress voices that they don't like
>>to hear, there is no reason why I should be blocked. If you don't like
>>what I am doing, reply my comment or even send me a warning not to repeat
>>what I have done. However, I have received none of those. If I am blocked
>>merely because of the administrator don't like my opinion, then you are
>>repressing the democratic voices of the people and shame on you!
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nanjing_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=12118590
>Is this your edit?
>
>The blocking was probably because of other, later edits by the same IP
>address, such as
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mma_troll&diff=prev&oldid=12112319
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mma_troll&diff=prev&oldid=12112340
>etc.
>
>HTH,
>elian
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l