from_name: Domas Mituzas

subject: [Wikitech-l] better search engine for MediaWiki?

body:
In my PostgreSQL efforts, I'm also playing with OpenFTS, the postgresql GiST based full-text search index. It is faster on updates (real time updating possible), and quite fast. I need to make several benchmarks. It could be used either in PostgreSQL-only wiki, or with combination of MySQL (as external searchindex table).

Cheers,
Domas


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Jakob

subject: [Wikitech-l] Hidden/protected page in MediaWiki

body:
Hi,

I'd like to set up a Portal with MediaWiki. It should be open for everyone but
we also need a place for internal data like private telephon numbers and text
that should only be available within the project management. Is there the
posibility to hide a specific 'intern'-namespace (or the
'projectname'-namespace) making it only read/write - accesible for selected
registered user?

Ideas? Solutions?

Thanks a lot,
  Jakob


from_name: Daniel Kinzler

subject: [Wikitech-l] Converting to UTF-code

body:
> A question about the UTF-8 conversion, is it possible to have a bot
> convert the non UTF-8 stuff to UTF-8 on en:wiktionary ??

I belive there is a bot that does exactly that. You may want to contact
Head at the german WP
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Head>: he manages that
bot (and he also wrote it, i belive).

Daniel


list: wikien-l

from_name: Shaun MacPherson

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Community Input for WikiProject - Fact and
	Reference Check

body:
 --- Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Shaun MacPherson wrote:
>
> > First time post, glad to be here.  I would like to
> > announce a new Fact and Reference WikiProject (
> >
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check
> > ) and am writing this email to get community
> input.
>
> My input would be "wait for the validation feature
> to go live".

Could you give some more info on this feature (a link
perhaps)?  We've already generated some interesting
feed back and ideas from our chat about it and perhaps
could offer some suggestions to the coders who maybe
working on this feature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check/Example_2/
is a draft example of how the referencing system could
work (the tabs are normal comment tabs for now).

Thanks for your input,

ShaunMacPherson

> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca


from_name: Daniel P.B.Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia considered harmful?

body:
It's funny, I honestly never seriously considered the possibility of
Wikipedia being dangerous in the way that librarian and jerk-columnist
thought it was... until something happened.

Nicolas Chuquet was the first person to set down in writing a system

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Changes to the skin system

body:
On Fri, 2004-09-03 at 11:16 +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:
> Here's a thought:
> * Have the article as XML (parse tree)
> * Have the skin layout as another XML (say,
> <topthingy><categories/></topthingy>)
> * Have the skin style as CSS
> * Profit! :-) (I mean, throw them together by parsing the skim XML tree,
> then "collapse" it by replacing <articlebody/> with the XHTML article)
>
> Skin XML could contain things like <sysop> with optional parts for
> sysops (delete page etc.) which will be left out for non-sysops.
> Also, for specific things like background images, there could be
> <skin>backimage</skin>, where the "backimage" function of the skin class
> is called.

That's what esi usually does (see http://www.esi.org). Of course, the
fewer parts a page is composed of the better the performance. 8 includes
yield a performance of about 100 requests/ second on my laptop, about
1/6 of the plain page performance. The big advantage with this is the
fact that the assembly happens on the squid, so potentially in France or
wherever the closest squids are.
Some ideas of how a page could be split up in esi includes are in html
comments in early versions of xhtml_slim.pt, the may versions for
example. This kind of caching doesn't require too much purge logic,
while the next step- incorporating esi tags in the content and
implementing parameter-less template includes this way- is more complex.

I'm willing to help implementing the first step if there's interest, not
sure about the overall opinion on this.
--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

body:
Exactly my point, thanks. And the more people that recognise it the
better.

Christiaan

On 3 Sep 2004, at 12:06 pm, Fred Bauder wrote:

> No. However, your points while well taken, point to the need for those
> who
> recognize the bias built in to the system to do what they can to
> counteract
> them. But there is simply no way we can provide internet access to
> those who
> languish in North Korean concentration camps or who live in traditional
> tribal African societies. Others must speak for them.
>
> Fred
>
>> From: Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at yurkycross.co.uk>
>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:39:46 +0100
>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"
>>
>> phil hunt wrote:
>>
>>>> The very idea of Wikipedia, it seems to me, is to avoid the
>>>> dominance
>>>> of any one group or person.
>>>
>>> I thought it was to create an encyclopedia.
>>
>> Right, just another encyclopedia?
>>
>> Christiaan


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
But, you see, they really don't want you to know.

Fred

> From: Delirium <delirium at hackish.org>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:38:58 -0400
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"
>
>> No, but we do need to recognize the bias built into the system and
>> compensate for it as much as we are able. To bring it home, many millions
>> are incarcerated here in the United States in our own "Gulag". To the extent
>> posible, those who have some contact and knowledge of this situation need to
>> present "their side" of the story.
>>
>>
> Hopefully just by presenting verifiable facts, with a minimum of
> spinning it.  A lot of our articles that have had little-known-but-true
> facts added to them start to read a lot like leftist blogging, with a
> strong undertone of "THIS IS WHAT THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW!!!!".


from_name: Chris Wood

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: error report

body:
Corrected - if you know who Jeffrey A. Sachs is, expand his stub at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_A._Sachs

--
Chris Wood


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Hidden/protected page in MediaWiki

body:
Jakob wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to set up a Portal with MediaWiki. It should be open for everyone but
> we also need a place for internal data like private telephon numbers and text
> that should only be available within the project management. Is there the
> posibility to hide a specific 'intern'-namespace (or the
> 'projectname'-namespace) making it only read/write - accesible for selected
> registered user?
>
> Ideas? Solutions?
>
> Thanks a lot,
>   Jakob

Hello,

I would say the fast and secure way is to use two wikis:
     1/ for public use
     2/ for management

That's what we did for mediawiki:
     1/ users have their wiki per language
     2/ dev & sysop
     3/ management

Then you can rely on something more secure like apache authentification.

Stronger user rights will be provided in MediaWiki later.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 03:49 +0200, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
>
>>Once my code is finished, skin designer will just have to zip a tree like:
>>/
>>-- skinname.php  // php class
>>-- skinname.xml  // PHPTal template
>
>
> I think it would be desirable to be able to add more skins based on the
> same template easily, without re-adding the xml template or a class. A
> css/picture dir and the skin name added to an array could be enough.
>
> The idea behind the heavy use of css was mainly to avoid having many
> templates, and to have a mainly structural xhtml that's as decoupled as
> possible from the actual appearance. Makes maintanance probably a bit
> easier and helps with future improvements to the caching system.
>
> I fear that skin designers would be tempted to simply modify the xml if
> it was mandatory to add a per-skin template anyway.
>
> But then, the caching scheme isn't implemented yet, so it doesn't matter
> that much currently. Could be hard to reverse though.
> I found it interesting to see that the website of the athens olympics
> was ESI-based as well, shows that it's not too exotic technology.

Hello Gabriel,

My idea is to allow non-wikipedia site admin to create new skins easily
and share them.

For wikipedia caching issue, we could set a skin white list / delete
unwanted skins.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
The "unique experiment" is that, if you're persistent enough, you get your way.  You might also see that an anon has posted as Michael on Michael's Talk page, and has flatly refused to apologize.

RickK

Arwel Parry <arwel at cartref.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Oh-oh! I don't expect much good to come of this. Has he apologised for
his misdemeanours?

You say that this is a unique experiment, but what criteria are to be
applied to judge whether the experiment has been successful or not?

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.


from_name: David Iberri

subject: [Wikitech-l] Why is DL/DD (rather than CSS) used for indented text?

body:
DL/DD is meant for definition lists, so why are we using them for indentation? IMO, it's almost as
bad as using blockquotes for indenting. Wouldn't it be better to use

  indented text

rather than

  indented text

? I'm guessing the answer is that not all browsers support the margin* attributes, or that somehow
the DL/DD combination is more widely supported.

I just figure if we're going to eventually produce 100% valid XHTML, we may as well use it
properly :-)

Thanks,
David Iberri


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

body:
Adding something to the code which returns pages which checks if the
current namespace = whatever and if the current user = sysop and else
does not return it should not be *that* hard.

Not that i know how to do it myself, havent looked at the code.

On Fri,  3 Sep 2004 14:13:12 +0200, Jakob
<jakob.voss at s1999.tu-chemnitz.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to set up a Portal with MediaWiki. It should be open for everyone but
> we also need a place for internal data like private telephon numbers and text
> that should only be available within the project management. Is there the
> posibility to hide a specific 'intern'-namespace (or the
> 'projectname'-namespace) making it only read/write - accesible for selected
> registered user?
>
> Ideas? Solutions?
>
> Thanks a lot,
>   Jakob
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Why is DL/DD (rather than CSS) used for indented
	text?

body:
David Iberri wrote:
> DL/DD is meant for definition lists, so why are we using them for indentation?

Really, our wiki (which is based on UseModWiki's syntax since Wikipedia
originally ran on UseModWiki) has no indentation syntax. It only has a
list syntax, which supports three kinds of lists:

# item -> numbered lists
* item -> bullet lists
; headword : text -> definition lists

You can use the : without the ; part, which as it happens produces an
indentation effect which is widely used.

Now, theoretically we could special-case that to produce something like
<p class="indent">. IMHO there's not much benefit to this, but if you
can do it without introducing bugs and making the code much harder to
read, feel free to whip up a patch.

Second reason: the CSS won't work in lynx. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] Secretlondon's attacks on Jimbo Wales

body:
Rick wrote:

>Secretlondon has decided to make public accusations against Jimbo Wales.  See http://www.livejournal.com/users/secretlondon/3206.html?view=8070#t8070
>
>
I don't see much in the way of real accusations there.  He dislikes
Jimbo's political viewpoints, and dislikes the fact that Jimbo disagrees
with his own viewpoints.  There's nothing like "Jimbo banned me because
he didn't like my viewpoints" or anything that would rise to the level
of an accusation of wrongdoing.

Also, to throw in an accusation of my own, everything ever posted on
livejournal is worthless. =]

-Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

>No, but we do need to recognize the bias built into the system and
>compensate for it as much as we are able. To bring it home, many millions
>are incarcerated here in the United States in our own "Gulag". To the extent
>posible, those who have some contact and knowledge of this situation need to
>present "their side" of the story.
>
>
Hopefully just by presenting verifiable facts, with a minimum of
spinning it.  A lot of our articles that have had little-known-but-true
facts added to them start to read a lot like leftist blogging, with a
strong undertone of "THIS IS WHAT THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW!!!!".
It's often not explicitly stated, but it's irritating when you can
obviously tell the political leanings of the person who wrote the
article just through a casual reading.  I usually stop reading when I
realize whoever wrote a particular article is trying to convince me of
his or her viewpoint.

FWIW, the use of that Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam Hussein's hand is a
common culprit.  It belongs some places, but it shows up a lot more
places than it belongs, as if someone is really trying to work it in
everywhere.  Some of the circumcision stuff also reads like it was
written by anti-circumcision activists.  The tone is just wrong, even if
the facts (and even the conclusions) are fine: you can tell when an
article was written by someone who has a strong personal opinion about
the matter.  Generally, it'd be nice if people avoided editing articles
they had a very strong personal opinion about, or at least let someone
who didn't care much do a thorough re-editing afterwards.

-Mark


from_name: Jochen Magnus

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: better search engine for MediaWiki?

body:
Meanwhile I applied a Sourceforge project named "ioda". After sf
replies, I will upload the source and a summary documentation.

Krzysztof: Former versions of joda are runing since 1996 as fulltext
archive for our newspaper (and for other purposes). joda is not brand
new (only the improved version for Wikipedia environment is it). I do
know nothing about jakarta but (like Magnus?) my experiences with java
apps are ... hmm... not really  good.

jo


from_name: Sean Barrett

body:
Delirium stated for the record:
> Generally, it'd be nice if people avoided editing articles
> they had a very strong personal opinion about, or at least let someone
> who didn't care much do a thorough re-editing afterwards.

There's something rather odd about the idea that we should only edit
articles we don't really care about, and avoid working on articles that
we do.  For one thing, most people are more knowledgeable about things
they have "strong personal opinion[s] about," and those "who [do]n't
care much" tend to be less knowledgeable.

I agree that NPOV is our ideal.  I disagree that avoiding matters we are
passionate about is the way to strive toward that ideal.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Yes, I am the last man to have walked on the
  sean at epoptic.com | moon, and that's a very dubious and disappointing
                   | honor. It's been far too long. --Gene Cernan


body:
Well, the affirmative action has already been taken in this instance;
the creation of wiki. Simply being aware is all I'm saying. Fred has
already explained why.

Christiaan

On 3 Sep 2004, at 6:07 pm, Rick wrote:

> Ok, and once we recognize it, what do we do about it?  Destroy our
> culture?  Overthrow our governments?  Wear hair shirts?  Make a mass
> move to the Third World?
>
> RickK
>
> Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at yurkycross.co.uk> wrote:
> Exactly my point, thanks. And the more people that recognise it the
> better.
>
> Christiaan
>
> On 3 Sep 2004, at 12:06 pm, Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>> No. However, your points while well taken, point to the need for
>> those who recognize the bias built in to the system to do what they
>> can to counteract them. But there is simply no way we can provide
>> internet access to those who languish in North Korean concentration
>> camps or who live in traditional tribal African societies. Others
>> must speak for them.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>> From: Christiaan Briggs
>>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia
>>> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:39:46 +0100
>>> To: English Wikipedia
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"
>>>
>>> phil hunt wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The very idea of Wikipedia, it seems to me, is to avoid the
>>>>> dominance of any one group or person.
>>>>
>>>> I thought it was to create an encyclopedia.
>>>
>>> Right, just another encyclopedia?
>>>
>>> Christiaan


body:
I know one thing, I shouldn't be using my work email to have these
discussions!! :(

Christiaan


body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> Uses of bare : are a few orders of magnitude more common than ;:.
> Most people don't even know about the ;:. No matter where did it come from,
> this IS the indentation syntax now.

It appears y'all are missing the point, so I'm going to say it again:

"Now, theoretically we could special-case that to produce something like
<p class="indent">. IMHO there's not much benefit to this, but if you
can do it without introducing bugs and making the code much harder to
read, feel free to whip up a patch."

I'm going to repeat the important part again:

"...if you can do it without introducing bugs and making the code much
harder to read, feel free to whip up a patch."

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Secretlondon's attacks on Jimbo Wales

body:
She claims Jimbo sent her an email criticising her "anti-US attitude",
which caused her to choose to leave Wikipedia.  She posted about it in
her livejournal.

Now some users are using this to attempt to bring Jimbo's behavior up
to the Arbitration Committee: see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#User:Xed_vs._User:Jimbo_Wales

but Secretlondon says she did not and does not intend this: "I don't
care to be honest. I suspect this is the red faction bringing this up.
If I wanted to bring t5his up on wikipedia I would have done so."

Since Secretlondon wishes that this not continue, I would respect her wishes.

-Morven

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:38:29 +0000 (UTC), Dan Drake <dd at dandrake.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:52:57 UTC, Rick
> <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Secretlondon has decided to make public accusations against Jimbo Wales.  See http://www.livejournal.com/users/secretlondon/3206.html?view=8070#t8070
>
> WTF?  The final message (as of now; dated 2004-09-03 18:30) _almost_
> sounds as if the first one were a forgery.  A plant by people working
> against Wikipedia.  But not quite; "anonymous" isn't quite the same as
> "spurious".
>
> Just tell me, someone, WHAT DID SHE DO ?
>  --W. T.  Pooh
>
> --
> Dan Drake
> dd at dandrake.com
> http://www.dandrake.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] 'Michael' unbanned

body:
If that is an issue, then it should be between Mike and Hephaestos.  How
does that involve Rick?
Ec

Rick wrote:

>Has he apologized to Hephaestos?
>
>RickK
>
>"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>As an experiment, I am going to unban Michael and place him under the
>mentorship of Danny and Guanaco, who will watch after him. He will
>edit only under his new [[Mike Garcia]] account, and promises to make
>only good edits.
>
(snip)


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> # item -> numbered lists
> * item -> bullet lists
> ; headword : text -> definition lists
>
> You can use the : without the ; part, which as it happens produces an
> indentation effect which is widely used.

It's sort of a separate issue, but IMO the : by itself should
conceptually be special-cased as "indentation" rather than "definition
list without a headword", because that accounts for 99+% of its uses.
By "conceptually" I mean anywhere that would contain semantic
information, such as the future parser or XML exports.  How people want
to render it in HTML I don't care. =]

-Mark


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Suggestion: get rid of "Edit Conflict" screen

body:
I have just posted a suggestion to meta.  I think we should get rid of
the "Edit Conflict" screen.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edit_conflict_handling_suggestion

In summary, the idea is to allow anyone (including experienced users) to
resolve an edit conflict (which a newbie might not be able to).

Please discuss.  :-)

Timwi


body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
> My idea is to allow non-wikipedia site admin to create new skins easily
> and share them.
>
> For wikipedia caching issue, we could set a skin white list / delete
> unwanted skins.

I am uncomfortable with the thought of having my skin deleted for some
mere caching problems...


from_name: Dan Drake

body:
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:52:57 UTC, Rick
<giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Secretlondon has decided to make public accusations against Jimbo Wales.  See http://www.livejournal.com/users/secretlondon/3206.html?view=8070#t8070

WTF?  The final message (as of now; dated 2004-09-03 18:30) _almost_
sounds as if the first one were a forgery.  A plant by people working
against Wikipedia.  But not quite; "anonymous" isn't quite the same as
"spurious".

Just tell me, someone, WHAT DID SHE DO ?
  --W. T.  Pooh

--
Dan Drake
dd at dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
I want to say a word about this demand for an apology.

I have advised Mike that he should apologize. He agreed. He also told me that
he sent an email to Heph expressing his regret for what he did. I do not know
if he did or not, but in this instance, I choose to act in good faith and
believe Mike. In his own unique way, he wrote to me today: "To my knowledge, I do
apologize." In an earlier email he wrote: "I do apologize to him for calling
him a bastard and thinking he is bad for something. I will try to get Zoe,
Hephaestos to come back and let them know that I apologize to them and not let
them be angry." (I corrected three typos for clarity)

What seems to be happening here is that Rick is demanding a public apology.
Personally, I do not think this is necessary. One thing I would hope we can all
do is act in good faith. We all stand to benefit from encouraging Mike to
keep to his part of the agreement, make accurate edits, and act respectfully
toward others. Our best bet to achieve this is to act respectfully toward him, be
welcoming of him, and point out any mistakes he makes in a friendly,
supportive manner.

I encourage Rick and all others who are skeptical to be vigilant. As Jimbo
pointed out, this new agreement is an experiment. At the same time, I encourage
them to participate in the experiment and to help it succeed. We all stand to
benefit from it.

Danny


body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

>Uses of bare : are a few orders of magnitude more common than ;:.
>Most people don't even know about the ;:. No matter where did it come from,
>this IS the indentation syntax now.
>
>
Although, on second thought, that doesn't mean we shouldn't change the
indentation syntax (or at least add an alternate form).  It might be
nice to have indentation syntax that was non-line oriented: the ':'
indentation automatically ends at the end of a line, leading to weird
things like:

:A poem being written,
:Like this

Which is both semantically and display-wise a bit strange.

An XML-ish way of doing it would be something simple like <indent>, but
that's not as intuitive/wikilike.  But we're kind of running out of
unused simple character sequences.

-Mark


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikitech-l] The darned template 5-includes limit problem

body:
Hi,

Le Thursday 02 September 2004 20:21, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason a ?crit :
> Well no, people wont complain, the french complained about the 5 limit
> because they use it in their == External links ==, now, alot of pages
> have 5-7 external links but not alot have 10+ And very few pages have
> more than 5 images but very very few have more than 10, most have 0-3.

Well, I think that this is really useless, and that somebody do that anymore.
But they are other useful application, like the page for the Olympic Games
where country name and flag are display with a template.

cf. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeux_Olympiques_d'?t?_de_2004
and all subpages, like
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athl?tisme_aux_jeux_Olympiques_de_2004

> So no, i dont think that people will complain again if you raise the
> limit to 10.

Humm. Not so sure.

Regards,
Yann

> On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:16:53 -0700, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> > I'm sick and tired of hearing about this. Increasing the limit won't
> > stop it since then people will complain about that limit too.
> >
> > As far as I know the recursion protection was changed to work
> > differently in 1.4 so there is not a hard number limit. Can someone
> > confirm, and is it a simple change to port to 1.3 or not?
> >
> > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 09/03/04 17:17, Christiaan Briggs wrote:

> I know one thing, I shouldn't be using my work email to have these
> discussions!! :(

I have a few spare gmail accounts here if you like. I send my
mailing lists through it because the search function is very
powerful ;-)

- d.


from_name: phil hunt

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"

body:
On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:38:58 -0400, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
>
>It's often not explicitly stated, but it's irritating when you can
>obviously tell the political leanings of the person who wrote the
>article just through a casual reading.

That's a pretty good indicator of when an article has POV problems.

>FWIW, the use of that Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam Hussein's hand is a
>common culprit.  It belongs some places, but it shows up a lot more
>places than it belongs, as if someone is really trying to work it in
>everywhere.  Some of the circumcision stuff also reads like it was
>written by anti-circumcision activists.  The tone is just wrong, even if
>the facts (and even the conclusions) are fine: you can tell when an
>article was written by someone who has a strong personal opinion about
>the matter.

Many (most, probably) Wikipedians have strong personal opinions
about things. It's best if they have self-knowledge about this and
can consciously restrain an POV-pushing that they might
subconsciously do.

> Generally, it'd be nice if people avoided editing articles
>they had a very strong personal opinion about, or at least let someone
>who didn't care much do a thorough re-editing afterwards.

Of course, people tend to edit articles about subjects they are
interested in. I'm not particularly interested in curcumcision, for
example, and have never read that article -- so obviously I'm not
going to have edited it.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)


from_name: Arwel Parry

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
Oh-oh! I don't expect much good to come of this. Has he apologised for
his misdemeanours?

You say that this is a unique experiment, but what criteria are to be
applied to judge whether the experiment has been successful or not?

In message <20040903144129.GB7943 at wikia.com>, "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales"
<jwales-ADBWotsCEHwAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> writes
>As an experiment, I am going to unban Michael and place him under the
>mentorship of Danny and Guanaco, who will watch after him.  He will
>edit only under his new [[Mike Garcia]] account, and promises to make
>only good edits.
>
>I ask all other sysops and users to give him a try, and try to welcome
>him into the community.  I would like to ask those who have been
>directly involved with dealing with his constant problem edits to
>please just steer clear of him for awhile, and let Danny and Guanaco
>or others try to mediate and deal with him.
>
>Essentially, banning hasn't worked very well, because he's a
>persistent problem.  Blocking him has been problematic because he
>comes in on an AOL proxy, which blocks lots of other people.
>
>This is a unique situation, and it warrants a unique experiment, and
>we have people (Danny in particular) who have taken the lead in
>volunteering to try something new.
>
>--Jimbo

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/


list: foundation-l

from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia

body:
Can you clarify what you intend to do with this encyclopedia? Create an encyclopedia specifically about Chile? Also, is the actual encyclopedia going to be online? You speak of making a "meta-site" with MediaWiki, but you haven't mentioned the actual project.

Also, what exactly is the intent of this e-mail? Are you just informing us, or do you want us to do something?

Sorry for the questions; I'm just curious. =)
--Slowking Man
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: rodrigo vera<mailto:rvabrilot at gmail.com>
  To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org<mailto:foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
  Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 12:12 AM
  Subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia

  I am a student from the Tecnical University Federico Santa Maria of
  Chile, i am preparing a proyect for creating an encyclopedia of Chile
  with mediawiki,

  We plan to create a meta-site named www.chilef.cl<http://www.chilef.cl/> (or
  chilef.mediawiki.org if you like)  wich coordinate de effort for
  creating this large scale proyect.

  we really whant to create a "evangelization process"  for this, with a
  litle help of e-mails, contacts in chilean universities (we have) and
  chain reaction messages through people we know.

  also we want to administer links with es.wikipedia.com for some content.

  we think that a strong net of contacts will make all the force needed
  by this proyect and want to  share it whit you.


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:43:20 -0700 (PDT), David Iberri <diberri at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ? I'm guessing the answer is that not all browsers support the margin* attributes, or that somehow
> the DL/DD combination is more widely supported.

Actually, I think it's simpler than that - it's been rendered like
that for "longer than anyone can remember"*, and quite simply predated
the nicer ways of doing things with CSS. As for how reliably supported
the CSS way is, I've no idea, but if it works reasonably well we
should indeed look at switching the newer skins to use it as dl/dd is
a distinctly ugly hack.

*may be an exaggeration
--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Eric B. and Rakim

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 7

body:
>Has he apologized to Hephaestos?
>
>RickK

Have you?

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: document mediawiki code ?

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Hello,
>
> As part of the documentation of mediawiki, I am willing to document the
> code. I am testing phpdocumentator ( http://www.phpdoc.org/ ).
>
> It works by using comments in the code that looks like:
>
> /**
>  * Method to return an articleID
>  * @private
>  */
> function getArticleID () {
>  ...
> }
>
>
> You can get an output example at :
>     http://www.twenkill.net/mwdoc/
> (site available only when I am online).
>
>
> Are we willing to flood our code with such comments ? I personally think
> it will help new developpers to come help us and let older developpers
> to better understand the whole software.

Hello,

I finished the phpdocumentor comments skeleton. Just enough to get
something to start with. This is only for HEAD version, I am not going
to backport it to 1_3.

The lastest documentation I have build is available at :
     http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/mwdoc/

I splitted Maintenance, SpecialPage and Skins in their own subpackages.
That ease reading a bit.

Error report is at :
     http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/mwdoc/errors.html

Please have a look at this documentation, use it AND document code. I
will have a look at sourceforge crontab to possibly update the doc once
a day or so.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
Rick wrote:

> The "unique experiment" is that, if you're persistent enough, you get
> your way.

This is an interesting philosophical thought. Michael getting "his way"
would be being un-banned and gaining access to editing Wikipedia. Jimmy
getting "his way" would be having Michael become a well-behaved and
respected contributor. Both are being persistent. There is no conflict
in having both "get their way". They meet nicely in the middle.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
Arwel Parry wrote:

> Oh-oh! I don't expect much good to come of this.

I don't expect much good to come out of that kind of attitude :-)


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
Arwel Parry a ?crit:
> Oh-oh! I don't expect much good to come of this. Has he apologised for
> his misdemeanours?
>
> You say that this is a unique experiment, but what criteria are to be
> applied to judge whether the experiment has been successful or not?

The experiment should be successful perhaps
* if Danny is not blocked every couple of days
* if Michael succeeds to edit quietly, under one account, without
wrongdoings, no more than the maximum of pages per day
* if we do not loose endless hours discussing this :-)

> In message
> <20040903144129.GB7943 at wikia.com>, "Jimmy
> (Jimbo) Wales"
> <jwales-ADBWotsCEHwAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> writes
>
>> As an experiment, I am going to unban Michael and place him under the
>> mentorship of Danny and Guanaco, who will watch after him.  He will
>> edit only under his new [[Mike Garcia]] account, and promises to make
>> only good edits.
>>
>> I ask all other sysops and users to give him a try, and try to welcome
>> him into the community.  I would like to ask those who have been
>> directly involved with dealing with his constant problem edits to
>> please just steer clear of him for awhile, and let Danny and Guanaco
>> or others try to mediate and deal with him.
>>
>> Essentially, banning hasn't worked very well, because he's a
>> persistent problem.  Blocking him has been problematic because he
>> comes in on an AOL proxy, which blocks lots of other people.
>>
>> This is a unique situation, and it warrants a unique experiment, and
>> we have people (Danny in particular) who have taken the lead in
>> volunteering to try something new.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>
>


from_name: Jakob Voss

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

> I would say the fast and secure way is to use two wikis:
>     1/ for public use
>     2/ for management
>
> Then you can rely on something more secure like apache authentification.
>
> Stronger user rights will be provided in MediaWiki later.

Then I do not have a single watchlist and things get divided (like the
documentation stuff between meta and the other Wikis).

Security is not that important but a "yes we can have some pages
protected" to convice everybody for using MediaWiki. I do not like to
use Moin or Twiki instead.

Maybe it's not that complicated to implement this:

- additonal 'intern' namespace
- only admins can edit and view articles there
- for others intern-articles contain an empty string if they try to
view/export/diff ...

Jakob


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 05:31:07PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> David Iberri wrote:
> >DL/DD is meant for definition lists, so why are we using them for
> >indentation?
>
> Really, our wiki (which is based on UseModWiki's syntax since Wikipedia
> originally ran on UseModWiki) has no indentation syntax. It only has a
> list syntax, which supports three kinds of lists:
>
> # item -> numbered lists
> * item -> bullet lists
> ; headword : text -> definition lists
>
> You can use the : without the ; part, which as it happens produces an
> indentation effect which is widely used.

Uses of bare : are a few orders of magnitude more common than ;:.
Most people don't even know about the ;:. No matter where did it come from,
this IS the indentation syntax now.


from_name: rodrigo vera

subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia

body:
I am a student from the Tecnical University Federico Santa Maria of
Chile, i am preparing a proyect for creating an encyclopedia of Chile
with mediawiki,

We plan to create a meta-site named www.chilef.cl (or
chilef.mediawiki.org if you like)  wich coordinate de effort for
creating this large scale proyect.

we really whant to create a "evangelization process"  for this, with a
litle help of e-mails, contacts in chilean universities (we have) and
chain reaction messages through people we know.

also we want to administer links with es.wikipedia.com for some content.

we think that a strong net of contacts will make all the force needed
by this proyect and want to  share it whit you.


subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

references:
<Te+dj4SdqPOBFw8G@cartref.demon.co.uk>
	<20040903233102.22005.qmail@web60607.mail.yahoo.com>
	<chb254$3vk$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:
> This is an interesting philosophical thought. Michael getting "his way"
> would be being un-banned and gaining access to editing Wikipedia. Jimmy
> getting "his way" would be having Michael become a well-behaved and
> respected contributor. Both are being persistent. There is no conflict
> in having both "get their way". They meet nicely in the middle.

We hope.  And it's worth noting is that this is a probationary period
and people are directly taking responsibility for mentoring.  If it
fails, we have learned something, and the cost was low, and borne by
the people who have specifically agreed to bear it.  If it succeeds,
though, then we can perhaps deal more productively with future
problems by having various people _of the appropriate personality type
and inclination_ volunteer to mentor.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
Arwel Parry wrote:
> Oh-oh! I don't expect much good to come of this. Has he apologised for
> his misdemeanours?

He has expressed contrition.  It is unclear to me whether this will
work or not; I am personally a bit skeptical.  But I think that we
should move forward with respect and love and benevolence, and hope
for the best, and work for the best as well.

> You say that this is a unique experiment, but what criteria are to be
> applied to judge whether the experiment has been successful or not?

It is hard to give specifics, isn't it?  If Michael becomes an
accepted member of the community making good edits with minimal
ongoing guidance from his friends, and the rest of us are not bothered
by it, then we will have achieved something remarkable.

--Jimbo


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Why is DL/DD (rather than CSS) used for indented
	text?

body:
Delirium wrote:

> Although, on second thought, that doesn't mean we shouldn't change the
> indentation syntax (or at least add an alternate form).  It might be
> nice to have indentation syntax that was non-line oriented: the ':'
> indentation automatically ends at the end of a line, leading to weird
> things like:
>
> :A poem being written,
> :Like this
>
> Which is both semantically and display-wise a bit strange.

I don't think it is strange, especially not semantically.  We are the
developers of the software, so we have the power to define the semantics
any way we want.  The mapping from syntax to semantics does not have to
resemble that of XML, nor does it strictly need to adhere to any other
limits.

Our current list syntax is defined in such a way that the asterisk at
the beginning of several lines sometimes represents a single list item
(which contains a list inside it); do you regard that as "strange" too?
I am perfectly fine with it, even though it is fundamentally different
from XML.  I say, let us define the ":" syntax in such a way that
several consecutive lines beginning with ":" constitute the correct
markup for a poem.  It is certainly better (and more aesthetic in the
wiki text) than "<br>".

Let us also define that a ":" at the beginning of a line is a different
syntax element from the ":" that occurs in the "; ... : ..." syntax.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
Rick a ?crit:
> The "unique experiment" is that, if you're persistent enough, you get your way.

You might also see that an anon has posted as Michael on Michael's Talk
page,

and has flatly refused to apologize.
>
> RickK

May I remind you that Jimbo took that decision to ban Michael, and that
Jimbo took that decision to unban Michael. There are some reasons for
doing this, it does not come of nowhere.

Jimbo made a deal with Michael. That deal does not mention that Michael
should apology. Michael already expressed contrition for his past
actions. Changing the proposal made by Danny, proposal which is the
basis of the agreement between Jimbo and Michael is just making the
agreement between Michael and Jimbo bogus.

I think as well that extorting an apology will just result in Heaph
receiving an apology which will be dishonnest. What is the sense of this
? I understand well that Heaph may appreciate to have some apology (I
also deleted wrong accounts on meta several times) and I really hope he
has some one day. But a true apology is *offered*.

It would be more relevant that the deal is accepted as is, and if
Michael joins quietly editing again, he will perhaps quietly come to
apologizing.

Also, why is it important that an anon has flatly refused to apology ?
There is no proof that this anon is Michael at all.

Finally, I will comment something Anthony wrote in the talk page of the
proposal :

Regarding your point number one, other accounts should not be blocked if
they cause too much collateral damage on innocent AOL users.  This
should be the case until such time that the automatic IP blocks can be
fixed to stop allowing blocked users to engage in this denial of service
attack.  I also think that it's too much of micromanagement for the
board to get involved in reviewing this.  I'd rather see it reviewed by
the arb committee, the mediation committe, a subset of this, a
specifically chosen group of people, or Jimbo himself. Dealing with
problematic users should not be a board activity.  [[User:Anthony
DiPierro|anthony]] [[User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning|(see warning)]]

I would like to insist that the proposal has been made by Jimbo (as you
suggest in your proposal), after a meeting of the mediation committee +
Jimbo (ie, were present amongst the members of the mediation committee
Danny, Sannse, Angela and Anthere). Consequently, I do not see very well
where the problem is. Now, if you consider neither of us 4 are members
of the mediation committee and as such do not constitute a subset of the
mediation committee, I highly suggest that you explain better what you
would see.

In the end, I see only that an attempt to find a solution to the problem
is just being actively sabotaged.


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wiktionary-l] The need for XML in a wiktionary context

body:
The current format is adequate.  Your proposal makes no mention of the
possible sacrifices in terms of ease of editing, a key feature in all
the wikis.  How will flexibility of format be maintained?

Ec

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> There is a need for using XML with wiktionary.
>
> The definitions of a word in wiktionary, can be structured in a fixed
> way. For each word/phrase you have a:
> *Indication what language it is in
> *Name of the word/phrase
> *Definition of the word/phrase
> *Translations
> *Pronounciation
> *Synonyms
> *Antonyms etc
>
> I do not try to be complete here, but my point is, the data is
> structured. Other organisations that work with words already structure
> their data using XML for instance GEMET. When Wiktionary is structured
> exlicitly, the result will be that the import and export from
> Wiktionary becomes possible and it will become possible for other
> dictionary/ glossary project to get a changed content in XML format
> that is specific for working with words. This will enhance the
> importance of wiktionary and it will help achieve out aim which is
> open accessible dictionary content.
>
> The flip side of the coin is that we can get {changed) content from
> other dictionary/ glossary projects for inclusion in wiktionary.
>
> The GEMET data is available as XML data and, it would be great to
> import it straight in from XML.
>
> *Issues:
> #Using XML standards for dictionary content.
> #Importing data / Exporting data using the current wiktionary content.
> #Structuring wiktionary using MySQL tables.
> #Importing data / Exporting data using the future wiktionary structure.


subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD is broken

body:
Good luck!!!!
It requires teaching people common sense.
Ec

Chris Wood wrote:

>- Yes, this is a rant, but please bear with me... it becomes less rant-like
>;)
>
>    See also the recent thread "Dartmouth follies".
>
>Votes for deletion have gone through the roof. At the start of August, the
>average number of pages voted for deletion per day was two. Now it is
>somewhere between 25 and 30, and I see no reason to expect this to stop
>increasing.
>
>Most of the articles are listed there for the wrong reasons. For instance,
>someone sees a badly written article - they list it on vfd. This page is
>useless without major expansion - vfd. A topic I've never heard of, and
>think is obscure - vfd.
>
>Articles are often voted for with little or no reason. Here's an example:
>"Simply not notable enough, I'm afraid."
>
>So what? As an example, one page being VfDed at the moment is about a club
>established in 1888, with many thousands of members (don't look for it, this
>is just an example). Why should the votes of 7 deletionists matter more than
>the thousands of people who may potentially look up the article? For that
>matter, why should the votes of even 100 Wikipedians matter, if the article
>is likely to be looked up by many people?
>
>The inherent bias of this page towards deletionism has been previously
>discussed on this list.
>
>It's pretty clear that VfD is going beyond it's original purpose, is wasting
>a lot of time for no good reason, and in many cases conflicts with other
>principles of Wikipedia. For instance, stubs are being deleted just because
>they are stubs, even though they are very expandable.
>
>I think it is clear that we need some tighter guidelines on reasons why
>something should be voted for deletion. I've originated a policy,
>Wikipedia:Importance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Importance),
>which attempts to establish some, and isn't doomed to failure like the
>previous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Fame_and_importance.
>Feel free to disagree with me, comment (*not* vote) and propose changes etc.
>at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia talk:Importance.
>
>I'm not so much trying to push my personal viewpoint here, as trying to
>establish consensus and stop people wasting their time. If the community
>decides "no articles about obscure topics", that's fine, but let's make that
>policy and not argue about it in a hundred different places over and over
>again. Let's not waste people's time by encouraging them to start articles
>on the one hand, and on the other deleting them because some other people
>think they're not important. Let's establish some common ground, and stop
>driving people away.
>
>


body:
Delirium wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> # item -> numbered lists
>> * item -> bullet lists
>> ; headword : text -> definition lists
>>
>> You can use the : without the ; part, which as it happens produces an
>> indentation effect which is widely used.
>
> It's sort of a separate issue, but IMO the : by itself should
> conceptually be special-cased as "indentation" rather than "definition
> list without a headword", because that accounts for 99+% of its uses.
> By "conceptually" I mean anywhere that would contain semantic
> information, such as the future parser or XML exports.  How people want
> to render it in HTML I don't care. =]
>
> -Mark

It's not because in 99% of the case its uses for indentation that the
usage is correct.

There is no indentation in HTML, one can still use <blockquote> or rely
on the good old '    ' sequence to emulate tabulations.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Capitalisation off for nl:wiktionary

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Some time ago, I requested to turn off the capitalisation for
> nk:wiktionary. From things that I read on the en:wiktionary I was led to
> believe that for a sysop it is an easy little time consuming
> manipulation. The big thing is to get things right afterward.
>
> Can someone please turn the capitalisation off. The longer the wait the
> more there is to fix.
>
> Thanks,
>    GerardM

Hello,

That is an interesting read, it gives a good overview about the
software. Thanks for the link Gerard.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
Here's another example, regarding a new book published by someone who
managed to survive a particular situation, institutions for the handicapped
in Russia.

It has been decribed by one critic thusly, "This book is today's 'Gulag
Archipelago,' a plea to ordinary people not to close themselves off to the
truth and reality."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/04/books/04gall.html?pagewanted=1&th

Fred

> From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:20:30 -0600
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"
>
> No, but we do need to recognize the bias built into the system and
> compensate for it as much as we are able. To bring it home, many millions
> are incarcerated here in the United States in our own "Gulag". To the extent
> posible, those who have some contact and knowledge of this situation need to
> present "their side" of the story.
>
> Fred


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you

body:
Hello,

The future wikimedia website may be found here :
http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Home

For it to become truely our site, it needs input from
editors. You may find here
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_website)
some ideas about we would like it to become and why.

You are welcome to help adding content in it. For
this, you need to ask for an account. Please do so to
Angela or I.

Mostly, to be functionnal, the website needs technical
help. An irc occured a while ago on the topic. The
link is here :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_website_meeting%2C_July_2004

In this discussion, it was concluded that there were a
bunch of things to fix, such as html handling,
different skin for loggued-in users and non loggued-in
users, languages...
The current situation in any cases is that

* We cannot host the fundraising page
* We cannot easily handle multilingualism

The first point makes it impossible for the website to
just exist.
The second is just a knife cut in our attempt to make
this site multilingue.

Is there anyone interested to help about this ?
If yes, when and for what ?

Is there any hope that anything is done in the next 6
months ?

I am ready to participate to the content, but since I
would prefer to write in french and am basically the
only one participating on it, is it a problem that the
foundation website is in french ?

Also, is it okay to everyone that I change the current
fundraising page ? There is outdated information on
it, and I would like that translations are included as
well.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you


subject: [Foundation-l] Foundation website, address

body:
Oh, I forgot...

I remember a mail was sent to the owner of
wikimedia.com.
What are the news on that topic ?

for information
We chose to have the site at WikimediaFoundation
rather than the easier Wikimedia, for the simple
reason that we do not own wikimedia.com.

Ant

_______________________________
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subject: [Foundation-l] Developer payment

body:
Hello

I made a proposal for how we could handle this tricky
issue on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Developer_payment.

I invite you to read it and to comment if you wish :-)

My belief is that it is a decent compromise between
all the wishes expressed (well, at least I hope).

I remind you that this is a trial, not a permanent
decision.

The plain idea is
* that the opportunity is taken to clean up and
organise better a couple of pages (such as
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Development_tasks)

* to avoid bureaucracy.
**If an editor or the foundation wishes for a task to
be done, just ask
**If a developer is ready to take care of a matter,
just mentions it on development task. If he would be
interested by getting in contract, please mentions it
on [[development payment proposal]] (or any title you
think best)

*to always ensure that this task is welcome by the
entire community (please discuss it before on mailing
lists or meta)

*to ensure that this task makes consensus amongst the
developers (hence the involvment of the developer
committee - no task will be paid for, which will go
against the general direction set by the developers,
or is technically nonsensical)

*to ensure that this task is interesting the
foundation (hence, the decision to pay or not for a
task will be made by the board)

Refining the proposal is welcome. Otherwise,
basically, this is in your hands now. The basic
structure is there, use it or do not use it :-)

ant

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subject: [Foundation-l] Developer payment


subject: [Wikitech-l] Developer payment


from_name: Scott Nelson

subject: [Wikitech-l] documentation team?

body:
Hi:

Wondering if there's a documentation team, and whether contributors are
needed.

I just got the wiki software installed, but not until after much pain;
as it turns out, the encoding was the problem (although I'm still not
sure why.)

While digging around for documentation, I came up dry. If something
needs to be done, somebody can point me in a direction. I'm just
beginning to muck around with the software, but will be doing quite a
bit.


body:
Rick wrote:
> Secretlondon has decided to make public accusations against Jimbo
>Wales.  See
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/secretlondon/3206.html?view=8070#t8070

Other than calling me a "United States rightist", which I am not, and
claiming that I banned Danny, which I did not, I didn't find any of it
to be "accusations".

I did send her a snippy one-sentence email many months ago (and many
nice ones as well), and I did apologize for it at that time within
hours of doing it.

I wrote:
>I'm getting sick of your US bashing.  Please stop it now.

I regretted it, and apologized.  I apologized again today.  I try to
be nice to everyone, but sometimes I fail, and I'm very sorry about
that.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VfD is broken

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Chris Wood wrote:
>
>> Votes for deletion have gone through the roof. At the start of
>> August, the
>> average number of pages voted for deletion per day was two. Now it is
>> somewhere between 25 and 30, and I see no reason to expect this to stop
>> increasing.
>
> I don't tend to involve myself much on VfD, but my gut feeling tells
> me that this can be easily counter-acted by simply removing
> inappropriate VfD listings.
>
> So what we need is a policy that defines what VfD listings are
> appropriate.

That's nice in theory.  Still, there is a clique that tends to scream
bloody murder if you remove things before they feel the time has come.
Some of us would be glad to remove such items from the list as soon as
they appear, but are not prepared to face all the bitching without backup.

If a member of the deletionist clique puts something on VfD he has
immediate backup from his colleagues based on their mutual trust.  For
the rest of us the amount of time required to properly deal with these
issues is a huge distraction from positive contributions.

I don't know if more policies will help.  A fair and consistent
applications may be more beneficial.  Maybe anyone who has been around
for at least a year should feel free to remove anything from the VfD
without having to run the gauntlet.

Ec


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] The need for XML in a wiktionary context

body:
There is a need for using XML with wiktionary.

The definitions of a word in wiktionary, can be structured in a fixed
way. For each word/phrase you have a:
*Indication what language it is in
*Name of the word/phrase
*Definition of the word/phrase
*Translations
*Pronounciation
*Synonyms
*Antonyms etc

I do not try to be complete here, but my point is, the data is
structured. Other organisations that work with words already structure
their data using XML for instance GEMET. When Wiktionary is structured
exlicitly, the result will be that the import and export from Wiktionary
becomes possible and it will become possible for other dictionary/
glossary project to get a changed content in XML format that is specific
for working with words. This will enhance the importance of wiktionary
and it will help achieve out aim which is open accessible dictionary
content.

The flip side of the coin is that we can get {changed) content from
other dictionary/ glossary projects for inclusion in wiktionary.

The GEMET data is available as XML data and, it would be great to import
it straight in from XML.

*Issues:
#Using XML standards for dictionary content.
#Importing data / Exporting data using the current wiktionary content.
#Structuring wiktionary using MySQL tables.
#Importing data / Exporting data using the future wiktionary structure.

NB I have posted this on META as well

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] ISO-639 + Glossaries / vocabulary lists / thematical
	lists

body:
Hi Gerard and all of you,

thinking about the code I was just considering some points.

What I noted on the page you gave me for the Italian version of the
ISO-code is that you use a mixed version for language identifiers - the
two letter code and where there's no two letter code the three letter
code - is this correct? I also noted that not all languages are present
in the ISO-3-letter-code - so they are standardised, but not completely.
This would obviously lead to an own wiktionary standard.

I am asking as I thought about compiling a list of the used language
codes for wiktionary and then add the several translations of the
languages names asking freinds and colleagues to complete the list.
Normally in the translation world the two letter code is used.

I'll then add the list to my sourceforge project (wsi-glossary:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/wsi-glossary/) you can see who is
contributing right now with integrations to the lists here:
http://wiki.wesolveitnet.com/wakka.php?wakka=WsiGlossaryContributors.

I should modify licensing (mine up to now was the same as the one used
for the OmegaT manual to GNU  FDL - I have to check out if this is
possible without problems on sourceforge net. I am to new to OpenContent
to know all about this - so another thing to be done immediately).

If you are working on a multilanguage list e.g. of trees, birds,
vegetables etc. etc. please consider seriously to have these lists
integrated by other people as well and have it ready somewhere for
download or just integrate it into wsi-glossary. Certain kinds of work
can be done even by schools in language lessons - e.g. the Italian
Thesaurus for OpenOffice.org was created with the help of a school where
the teachers were the team leaders and during the classes the pupils did
something that made "sense" to them. Having them work directly in
wiktionary online is impossible for most schools as computers don't have
Internet access (or only a few of them) and so working on tables is much
easier.

If you prefer not to hand out the list: give out single terms or gourps
of terms like this:

I need these term(s)
house
cat
mouse
etc.

in the following languages:
German
French
Italian
etc.

I can then publish these parts or on my portal or send the request to
different lists of translators - so step by step it is possible to
integrate and improve.

Best wishes from Italy,

Sabine

--
Sabine Cretella
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
www.wordsandmore.it
Meetingplace for translators
www.wesolveitnet.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Hidden/protected page in MediaWiki

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:
> It's looking more and more like a proper security/permission model
> (i.e. going beyond "user/admin", "normal/protected") is the single
> most requested feature for users outside of the wikimedia projects.

It's also something that's not a wiki. All pages on a wiki are readable
by all visitors; if you want something else, you don't want a wiki.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Re: ISO-639 + Glossaries / vocabulary lists /
	thematical lists

body:
Sabine Cretella wrote:

> Hi Gerard and all of you,
>
> thinking about the code I was just considering some points.
>
> What I noted on the page you gave me for the Italian version of the
> ISO-code is that you use a mixed version for language identifiers -
> the two letter code and where there's no two letter code the three
> letter code - is this correct? I also noted that not all languages are
> present in the ISO-3-letter-code - so they are standardised, but not
> completely. This would obviously lead to an own wiktionary standard.
>
> I am asking as I thought about compiling a list of the used language
> codes for wiktionary and then add the several translations of the
> languages names asking freinds and colleagues to complete the list.
> Normally in the translation world the two letter code is used.
>
> I'll then add the list to my sourceforge project (wsi-glossary:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/wsi-glossary/) you can see who is
> contributing right now with integrations to the lists here:
> http://wiki.wesolveitnet.com/wakka.php?wakka=WsiGlossaryContributors.
>
> I should modify licensing (mine up to now was the same as the one used
> for the OmegaT manual to GNU  FDL - I have to check out if this is
> possible without problems on sourceforge net. I am to new to
> OpenContent to know all about this - so another thing to be done
> immediately).
>
> If you are working on a multilanguage list e.g. of trees, birds,
> vegetables etc. etc. please consider seriously to have these lists
> integrated by other people as well and have it ready somewhere for
> download or just integrate it into wsi-glossary. Certain kinds of work
> can be done even by schools in language lessons - e.g. the Italian
> Thesaurus for OpenOffice.org was created with the help of a school
> where the teachers were the team leaders and during the classes the
> pupils did something that made "sense" to them. Having them work
> directly in wiktionary online is impossible for most schools as
> computers don't have Internet access (or only a few of them) and so
> working on tables is much easier.
>
> If you prefer not to hand out the list: give out single terms or
> gourps of terms like this:
>
> I need these term(s)
> house
> cat
> mouse
> etc.
>
> in the following languages:
> German
> French
> Italian
> etc.
>
> I can then publish these parts or on my portal or send the request to
> different lists of translators - so step by step it is possible to
> integrate and improve.
>
> Best wishes from Italy,
>
> Sabine
>
Wikimedia does use two letter ISO 639 codes and when they do not exist
they do use the three letter codes. There are missing ISO codes. There
are also the SIL codes but personally I think mixing these three codes
makes a mess. Preferably ISO adds missing codes for languages.

For cooperation to work best, things like XML can be considered. GEMET
uses it, they have people knowledgable regarding thesauri XML open content.

When you have an application that can import and export XML data, you
can work off line locally and export the data at the end of the day. The
start might be the Italian Open Office list and add definitions in
Italian export it and share it with the world. An even better start
might be words in another wikipedia with an Italian translation; the
translations TO Italian are then already known.

The most important thing is to prevent double work and the continued
checking of the stuff that is available. Start with producing
definitions for all the Languages. Many translations are available on
the nl:wiktionary. The articles can be copied to it:wiktionary just add
content to some templates. They do need checking as well... :)

Thanks,
  Gerard


body:
Well, of course Wikipedia should not be the only source used in research. If a report-writer does so, then it is his or her own fault.

--Slowking Man
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mathias Schindler<mailto:neubau at presroi.de>
  To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org<mailto:wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org> ; Mailingliste der deutschsprachigen Wikipedia<mailto:wikide-l at Wikipedia.org>
  Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 11:02 AM
  Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Edward W. Felden on wikipedia

  http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/archives/000674.html<http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/archives/000674.html>

  "Until I read the Microsoft-case page, I was ready to declare Wikipedia
  a clear success. Now I'm not so sure. Yes, that page will improve over
  time; but new pages will be added. If the present state of Wikipedia is
  any indication, most of them will be very good; but a few will lead
  high-school report writers astray."


from_name: Rick

body:
What do I need to apologize to Hephaestos about?

RickK

"Eric B. and Rakim" <eric_b_and_rakim at hotmail.com> wrote:
>Has he apologized to Hephaestos?
>
>RickK

Have you?

---------------------------------
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Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.


body:
Geerd, please have a look at this:

*********************************************************
<glossword>
-
    <line>
<term t1="A" t2="AT" id="4">attuatore</term>
-
    <defn>
<trns lang="106">Trieb</trns>
<trns lang="106">Arbeitszylinder</trns>
Trieb ->azionatore (comandi idraulici); Arbeitshylinder -> ?lhydraulisch
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="B" t2="BA" id="62">batteriostatico</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">bakteriostatisch</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="B" t2="BO" id="54">bovino</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">bovin</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="C" t2="CE" id="33">cellule ematiche</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">Blutzellen</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="C" t2="CO" id="37">concentrazione serica</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">Serumkonzentration</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="E" t2="EM" id="27">ematico</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">H?mato-</trns>
<trns lang="106">Blut-</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="E" t2="EN" id="8">endovenoso</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">intraven?s</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="E" t2="ET" id="5">etambutolo</term>
-
    <defn>
<trns lang="106">Ethambutol</trns>
<trns lang="103">ethambutol</trns>
<src>http://www.gesundheit.de/roche/ro10000/r10785.html</src>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="F" t2="FL" id="24">fleboclisi</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">intraven?se Infusion</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="I" t2="IN" id="10">iniezione endovenosa</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">intraven?se Injektion</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="L" t2="LE" id="77">legno impiallacciato</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="025"/>
<trns lang="106">furniertes Holz</trns>
<src>eurodicautom</src>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="L" t2="LE" id="71">legno tamburato</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="025"/>
<trns lang="106">furniertes Holz</trns>
<src>eurodicautom</src>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="M" t2="MA" id="44">mass media</term>
-
    <defn>
<trns lang="106">Massenmedien</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="O" t2="OC" id="51">ocratossina</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="054"/>
<trns lang="106">Ochratoxin</trns>
-
    <src>
http://www.verbraucherministerium.de/forschungsreport/rep2-99/ochra.htm
</src>
-
    <src>
Schimmelpilze sind in der Lage, unter sehr unterschiedlichen Bedingungen
giftige Substanzen (Mykotoxine) zu bilden, die in der gesamten
Nahrungskette vorkommen k?nnen. Zu den bekanntesten Vertretern z?hlt das
Ochratoxin A, das von bestimmten Penicillium- und Aspergillus-Arten
gebildet wird. Dieses Toxin kann die Nieren und das Immunsystem
sch?digen und zeigt im Tierversuch eine kanzerogene Wirkung. Der Aufgabe
des Gesetzgebers, einen umfassenden Schutz der Verbraucher zu
gew?hrleisten, ist das Bundesministerium f?r Gesundheit (BMG)
nachgekommen und hat eine wissenschaftliche Studie ?ber Ochratoxin A
initiiert und gef?rdert, die 1996 begonnen und 1999 abgeschlossen wurde.
Das Projekt hatte zum Ziel, Verzehrsdaten auf epidemiologischer
Grundlage zu ermitteln und Ochratoxin A in relevanten Lebensmitteln
sowie im Blutserum von Probanden zu bestimmen. Aus der Verkn?pfung der
Ergebnisse von Verzehrsdaten, Lebensmitteluntersuchungen und
Blutserum-Analysen k?nnen eine fundierte Beurteilung der tats?chlichen
Exposition der Bev?lkerung in Deutschland erstellt und Empfehlungen f?r
eine H?chstmengenregelung abgeleitet werden. (weiteres auf der Website)
</src>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="P" t2="PE" id="17">per via endovenosa</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">intraven?s</trns>
</defn>
</line>
-
    <line>
<term t1="S" t2="SO" id="68">soluzione fisiologica</term>
-
    <defn>
<abbr lang="027"/>
<trns lang="106">Ringer L?sung</trns>
</defn>
</line>
</glossword>

****************************************************
This was the original glossary project where I tried to ask people for
co-operation, but online I had just two members trying to help ...
that's why I passed to .csv tables that can then easily be converted
itno xml in a second stage (most people don't like working online even
if they are connected 24 hrs a day ...). Glossword (www.glossword.info)
is an OpenSource project - Sorceforge page:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/glossword/

Instead of ISO-language code Glossword uses numbers to identify
languages. This is a minor problem as it is easy to change to ISO using
search and replace.

My installation of the software can be found here:
www.dict.wesolveitnet.com. If you'd like to try around there, just let
me know I'll then create a user account with access to all dics. Really
I am not sure if this can be useful ...  maybe just for conversion issues?

Ciao, Sabine

*************

Sabine Cretella
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
www.wordsandmore.it
Meetingplace for translators
www.wesolveitnet.com

>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
Nah, we all KNOW Michael will revert to type.  I have lost all interest in dealing with his nonsense.

RickK

daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:
I encourage Rick and all others who are skeptical to be vigilant. As Jimbo
pointed out, this new agreement is an experiment. At the same time, I encourage
them to participate in the experiment and to help it succeed. We all stand to
benefit from it.

Danny

---------------------------------
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Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VfD is broken

body:
You're really looking for an edit war, aren't you?  If someone is so fired-up about an item being listed on VfD, they can make a reasoned argument for their case.  What a surprise, it might just work.  But just to delete the listing without discussion (or even with discussion) would not be a Good Thing.

RickK

Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
I don't tend to involve myself much on VfD, but my gut feeling tells me
that this can be easily counter-acted by simply removing inappropriate
VfD listings.

---------------------------------
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Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.


body:
Hi Gerard,

> Wikimedia does use two letter ISO 639 codes and when they do not exist
> they do use the three letter codes. There are missing ISO codes. There
> are also the SIL codes but personally I think mixing these three codes
> makes a mess. Preferably ISO adds missing codes for languages.

I completely agree to this.

>
> For cooperation to work best, things like XML can be considered. GEMET
> uses it, they have people knowledgable regarding thesauri XML open
> content.

XML is one of the best solutions as the standard for CAT (computer aided
translation) software is tmx for memories and tbx for glossaries - and
this is nothing else than "definite" xml codes.

>
> When you have an application that can import and export XML data, you
> can work off line locally and export the data at the end of the day.
> The start might be the Italian Open Office list and add definitions in
> Italian export it and share it with the world. An even better start
> might be words in another wikipedia with an Italian translation; the
> translations TO Italian are then already known.

Hmmm ... data needs to be multilanguage, doesn't it? Or at least must be
identified by language tags. To edit bilingual data we could use OmegaT
(that adds language tags to the tmx 1.1 file) - then we could use the
tmx-file to import data. When new terms are added to a list using the
old tmx file they will be automatically given as translated so the
translator just needs to translate the missing part that is stored in a
new translation memory file in tmx format. OmegaT is java based,
therefore platform independent and Open Source ... the created files of
single "words" on the other hand could then be used as glossary files.
Maybe we could try this out with the translations of the ISO
languages-table.

>
> The most important thing is to prevent double work and the continued
> checking of the stuff that is available. Start with producing
> definitions for all the Languages. Many translations are available on
> the nl:wiktionary. The articles can be copied to it:wiktionary just
> add content to some templates. They do need checking as well... :)

I'll do that right now - I just created a table with the codes and now
insert the missing English names.

Ciao, Sabine

>


body:
Jakob Voss wrote:
> You can use a
> Wiki inside an intranet or protected by a password.

Bingo! Problem solved.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Chris Wood

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: Re: Re: What is a category?

body:
I'm reacting to two things: 1) People who say that categories are strictly
"is a", and something belongs in a category only if it is an example of that
category, and 2) People who say an article or category cannot belong to too
many categories.

--
Chris Wood


from_name: James R. Johnson

body:
Hello Anthere,
	I can help with translating from French after March (since I'll be
in France, and know more then), but for now, I can help translate to German
and Anglo-Saxon.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Anthere
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 10:28 AM
To: wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
Cc: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you

Hello,

The future wikimedia website may be found here :
http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Home

For it to become truely our site, it needs input from
editors. You may find here
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_website)
some ideas about we would like it to become and why.

You are welcome to help adding content in it. For
this, you need to ask for an account. Please do so to
Angela or I.

Mostly, to be functionnal, the website needs technical
help. An irc occured a while ago on the topic. The
link is here :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_website_meeting%2C_July_2004

In this discussion, it was concluded that there were a
bunch of things to fix, such as html handling,
different skin for loggued-in users and non loggued-in
users, languages...
The current situation in any cases is that

* We cannot host the fundraising page
* We cannot easily handle multilingualism

The first point makes it impossible for the website to
just exist.
The second is just a knife cut in our attempt to make
this site multilingue.

Is there anyone interested to help about this ?
If yes, when and for what ?

Is there any hope that anything is done in the next 6
months ?

I am ready to participate to the content, but since I
would prefer to write in french and am basically the
only one participating on it, is it a problem that the
foundation website is in french ?

Also, is it okay to everyone that I change the current
fundraising page ? There is outdated information on
it, and I would like that translations are included as
well.

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subject:
[Wikitech-l] RE: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs
	you


from_name: Krzysztof Kowalczyk

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: better search engine for MediaWiki?

body:
> >Why not just use Lucene
> >(http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene/docs/index.html) or one of its many
> >ports?
> <voice type=disgusted>Java! &ugh;</voice> ;-)

There is a C# .NET port used e.g. in a very succesful Lookut add-on to
Outlook. There are 2 python ports (one slow in native Python, another
one that is part of Chandler project which uses python bindings to gcj
compiled java code). There is C++ port.

"I don't like java" or "I have bad experience with java projects" are
non-arguments. Do some research on technology before stating your
objections to it.

Krzysztof Kowalczyk | http://blog.kowalczyk.info


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VfD is broken

references:
<chbk3m$v56$1@sea.gmane.org> <chcgmk$f4f$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<4139FCE0.7000207@telus.net>

body:
Ray Saintonge stated for the record:

> Maybe anyone who has been around
> for at least a year should feel free to remove anything from the VfD
> without having to run the gauntlet.

Maybe we should, but we would still encounter violent opposition.  I've
been around almost since the beginning (user number 30, if I recall
correctly), yet criticisms of VfD -- and even jokes about VfD -- are
eagerly adopted as personal attacks by RickK.  I don't know what he
would do if someone actually removed something without his approval.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Hard is birth, hard is life, hard is
  sean at epoptic.com | learning, hard is the appearance of a
                   | Buddha. Hard to find is a well-bred man.


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:28:07 +0200, Jakob Voss <gmane-user at nichtich.de> wrote:
> Then I do not have a single watchlist and things get divided (like the
> documentation stuff between meta and the other Wikis).
>
> Security is not that important but a "yes we can have some pages
> protected" to convice everybody for using MediaWiki. I do not like to
> use Moin or Twiki instead.
>
> Maybe it's not that complicated to implement this:
>
> - additonal 'intern' namespace
> - only admins can edit and view articles there
> - for others intern-articles contain an empty string if they try to
> view/export/diff ...
>
> Jakob

It's looking more and more like a proper security/permission model
(i.e. going beyond "user/admin", "normal/protected") is the single
most requested feature for users outside of the wikimedia projects.
While this "intern" namespace is a neat solution for some cases, it's
really high time someone took on the task of implementing proper
rights management features.
i.e.:
* proper arbitrary user-types (the database can accept these, but only
a handful have meaning - mainly "sysop")
* a proper interface for assigning and unassigning these (to replace
Special:Makesysop; probably accessible from each User: page;
obviously, who can promote whom needs to be configurable somehow too)
* the ability to set read and write flags for articles, namespaces,
groups of articles; and indepently for different user groups (i.e.
extend the current "protection" mechanism to store specific details of
who can view and edit the page; custom namespaces, as in the 'intern'
example suggested, are probably the best way of having pages that are
automatically created with protection from a red-link - it would be
nice if we could have 'facet' style links as found in other wiki
engines, where [[Foo]] is treated as a synonym of [[Intern:Foo]] if
placed on [[Intern:Bar]], but that's another issue really)
* make sure this logic is carried through to all parts of the
software; for read protection, this includes the search feature and
(to a lesser extent, since users would just get blank pages)
the random pages feature
* Special: pages should also be made configurable as to who can do
what to them using the same rules (this may entail giving Special:
pages more of an 'existence' than currently, if I understand their
current status right)

I'm sure this has all been said before, and if I was more confident of
my abilities, I'd say I'd just get on with it, but for now I'm just
thinking through design concepts. Perhaps we should have a bug in the
'mediazilla' database to track necessary steps towards this goal?

[One interesting side effect of a system like this would be that you
could have self-assigning user classes that acted as filters for,
e.g., spoilers (e.g. Memory-Alpha could have pages marked as not
suitable for people who hadn't seen the latest series of Enterprise,
etc). Just me having unrealistically grand visions again...]

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> The current format is adequate.  Your proposal makes no mention of the
> possible sacrifices in terms of ease of editing, a key feature in all
> the wikis.  How will flexibility of format be maintained?

XML is not to edited by hand. You are absolutely right about that.
However, the current format is not without its problems. At this moment
an English word cannot be re-used easily in other languages. Things are
free formatted at the moment. It would be a good thing if we start
thinking about creating some database structures for use within
wiktionary. It would rid us of these dratted templates like {{en}} and
{{-en-}}. They work, it is the best thing around but they are ugly.

What I propose at this time is to get us thinking about importing and
exporting in an XML format. And considering changes to enhance the
functionality within all wiktionaries and the functionality to the
outside world.

One of the aims of wikimedia is to create open content. By having our
data in our proprietary format, we do not achieve what can be achieved.

Thanks,
    Gerard


from_name: Uncle Jiang

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VfD is broken

body:
Why don't we encourage whoever listed the item in the first place to
remove the item if it was inappropriate? Leave a note on the person's
talk page asking them to remove it or remove it yourself and then
allow the person the option of relisting it if he still disagrees. Of
course, if we have a good number of people voting "delete" then the
listing should obviously not be removed, but when consensus
overwhelmingly to keep, what is the point of keeping the item listed?

Jiang

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 10:35:28 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
> That's nice in theory.  Still, there is a clique that tends to scream
> bloody murder if you remove things before they feel the time has come.
> Some of us would be glad to remove such items from the list as soon as
> they appear, but are not prepared to face all the bitching without backup.
>
> If a member of the deletionist clique puts something on VfD he has
> immediate backup from his colleagues based on their mutual trust.  For
> the rest of us the amount of time required to properly deal with these
> issues is a huge distraction from positive contributions.
>
> I don't know if more policies will help.  A fair and consistent
> applications may be more beneficial.  Maybe anyone who has been around
> for at least a year should feel free to remove anything from the VfD
> without having to run the gauntlet.
>
> Ec


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Start a new skin

body:
Matthias Pospiech wrote:
>
> Well I have downloaded the sources for 1.3.2 and unfortunately,
> there exists no /skin/ directory, nor do I have any php file for the
> existing skins.

/includes> ls *Skin*
Skin.php             SkinNostalgia.php  SkinStandard.php
SkinCologneBlue.php  SkinPHPTal.php

These are the files for the existing skins. (Monobook, MySkin and
DaVinci are defined in SkinPHPTal.php.) However, currently you can't add
a new skin without changing the source code (you would have to add a
line for your skin in Skin.php line 24, a class definition in either
SkinPHPTal.php or a new file of its own, and something in User.php line
480 as well).

You would probably do well waiting for 1.4 first. In 1.4 we will have a
separate /skins/ directory in which you can place files and they will
become available automatically. No need to modify the source code.

> I have taken a look at the css files. (in particular the cologneblue.css)
> Is there any reason why pt (points) is used as the size unit instead of em
> or percentages which are relative ?

You would have to ask its author about that. Unfortunately, neither
includes/SkinCologneBlue.php nor stylesheets/cologneblue.css specifies
who that is...

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VfD is broken

body:
Chris Wood wrote:

> Votes for deletion have gone through the roof. At the start of August, the
> average number of pages voted for deletion per day was two. Now it is
> somewhere between 25 and 30, and I see no reason to expect this to stop
> increasing.

I don't tend to involve myself much on VfD, but my gut feeling tells me
that this can be easily counter-acted by simply removing inappropriate
VfD listings.

So what we need is a policy that defines what VfD listings are appropriate.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Because the Slashdot crowd will appreciate it

references:
<cft4m7$2ji$1@sea.gmane.org> <cfu1e4$5uu$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<51dd1af804081801477b4962cd@mail.gmail.com>

body:
"?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason" <avarab at gmail.com>
wrote in message news:51dd1af804081801477b4962cd at mail.gmail.com...
> But why not just use "wikipedia printed out would weigh about as much
> as an average person" or "86kg", when you make comparisons you're
> trying to illustrate a point, and am i the only one that thought
> "eeh.... yeah?" instead of "oh cool" upon hearing that, it makes you
> ponder about GWB not WP.

Because the Slashdot crowd will appreciate it

--
Chris Wood


body:
*scratches head in confusion*
I think maybe the below exchange got a little bit muddled - unless I'm
missing something, and there really *is* a link in Gerard's message...

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 06:20:47 +0200, Ashar Voultoiz <thoane at altern.org> wrote:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > Some time ago, I requested to turn off the capitalisation for
> > nk:wiktionary. From things that I read on the en:wiktionary I was led to
> > believe that for a sysop it is an easy little time consuming
> > manipulation. The big thing is to get things right afterward.
> >
> > Can someone please turn the capitalisation off. The longer the wait the
> > more there is to fix.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >    GerardM
>
> Hello,
>
> That is an interesting read, it gives a good overview about the
> software. Thanks for the link Gerard.
>
> --
> Ashar Voultoiz

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 'Michael' unbanned

body:
--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Nah, we all KNOW Michael will revert to type.  I have lost all
> interest in dealing with his nonsense.
>
> RickK

Then please don't discourage others from doing so. WikiLove man!

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: VfD is broken

references:
<chbk3m$v56$1@sea.gmane.org> <chcgmk$f4f$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<4139FCE0.7000207@telus.net>
	<6ed46e2904090414224d3b7b84@mail.gmail.com>
	<chde5p$sqm$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
This doesn't mean the few listings that are voted outright and almost
unanimous "keep" shouldn't be removed.

A cadre of inclusionists aren't always right either. If it's
controversial, then it stays. This doesn't stop the non-controversial
items from getting removed.

Jiang

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:04:16 +1200, Chris Wood <standsongrace at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Why don't we encourage whoever listed the item in the first place to
> > remove the item if it was inappropriate? Leave a note on the person's
> > talk page asking them to remove it or remove it yourself and then
> > allow the person the option of relisting it if he still disagrees. Of
> > course, if we have a good number of people voting "delete" then the
> > listing should obviously not be removed, but when consensus
> > overwhelmingly to keep, what is the point of keeping the item listed?
> >
> > Jiang
>
> A good number of people may and do vote "delete" on inappropriate listings.
> A cadre of deletionists aren't always right.
>
> Chris Wood


subject: [Wikitech-l] Automatic minor edits

body:
Chris Wood wrote:
> Rules for marking minor edits could go something like this:
> 1) All edits by anonymous users are minor (same rule as now)
> 2) A change of 5 words or less, not next to each other or in the same
> sentence, is major.
> 3) Any number of formatting changes (italics, tables, header levels etc) is
> major.
> 4) Everything else is minor.

Pop quiz: what's wrong with the above text?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Matthias Pospiech

subject: [Wikitech-l] Start a new skin

body:
(I have to admit that I am completely new to this project)

What I would like to do is to start a complete new skin.
>From what I could read here so far, is that there a the css files
and an XHTML file directing the structure.

Well I have downloaded the sources for 1.3.2 and unfortunately,
there exists no /skin/ directory, nor do I have any php file for the
existing skins.

It would be great if you could guide me, so that I can really start
working...

I have taken a look at the css files. (in particular the cologneblue.css)
Is there any reason why pt (points) is used as the size unit instead of em
or percentages which are relative ?
(IMHO one should try to use relative sizes whereever possible)

Thanks,
Matthias

---------------------------------
www.matthiaspospiech.de


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Start a new skin

references:
<chcbkk$61a$1@sea.gmane.org> <chcg7o$f4f$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<chci0q$ijq$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Matthias Pospiech wrote:
> Timwi wrote:
>>You would probably do well waiting for 1.4 first. In 1.4 we will have a
>>separate /skins/ directory in which you can place files and they will
>>become available automatically. No need to modify the source code.
>
>>From what I have read in the latest news here I thought so too.
> However I would like to start in the near future. When can one expect 1.4 to
> be finished ?
>
> Matthias

Hello,

We all spent a lot of time beta testing 1.3 and eventually reached a
stable version fast which is 1.3.2. As far as I know 1.3.x is now frozen
and future releases will just includes needed security and little bug
fixes. I would not expect any major changes in 1.3.

Version 1.4 is actually growing everyday with new features and most of
them have yet to be finished. Once we stop adding features, start
tracking bugs and beta test : 1.4 will be around the corner.
Maybe by Xmax 2004 it can be available for download ?

Back to the skin topic, I am actually changing a bit the way the skin
system is organised. The basic idea is that skin designer will just have
to put new files and the system will detect the skin.

I invite you install a v1.4 version from cvs to develop a new skin, it
will be much easier for you :o)

cheers,

--
Ashar Voultoiz


body:
Rowan Collins wrote:
> *scratches head in confusion*
> I think maybe the below exchange got a little bit muddled - unless I'm
> missing something, and there really *is* a link in Gerard's message...
>
> On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 06:20:47 +0200, Ashar Voultoiz <thoane at altern.org> wrote:
>
>>Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>>Some time ago, I requested to turn off the capitalisation for
>>>nk:wiktionary. From things that I read on the en:wiktionary I was led to
>>>believe that for a sysop it is an easy little time consuming
>>>manipulation. The big thing is to get things right afterward.
>>>
>>>Can someone please turn the capitalisation off. The longer the wait the
>>>more there is to fix.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>
>>Hello,
>>
>>That is an interesting read, it gives a good overview about the
>>software. Thanks for the link Gerard.
>>

My bad, I made a mistake answering ... :-/

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you

body:
Anthere a ?crit:
> Hello,
>
> The future wikimedia website may be found here :
> http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Home
>
> For it to become truely our site, it needs input from
> editors. You may find here
> (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_website)
> some ideas about we would like it to become and why.

For a follow up, I created an account for Danny (english contributor)
right now, and one for Tipiac this week (french contributor).


subject: [Wikipedia-l] One_million_Wikipedia_articles

body:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_press_releases/One_million_Wikipedia_articles

Thanks a lot for Michael and all those working on the 1 000 000 articles
press release. That is a huge number is not it ?

I hope that this will be released in many languages.

Since I am from a medium size wikipedia, which was once really really
really small :-), I remember quite well how I thought the first global
press release important.
We were perhaps 10 000 articles then, and all our attempts to make
promotion were really limited to some small sites. We would never dare
write to a big newssite, telling them ''look, we do an encyclopedia, we
are great, we have 10 000 articles''.

The global press release was the opportunity to write to big sites, and
say "look, we do an encyclopedia, we are great, we have 300 000
articles. Incidently, the french version is still quite small..."

I hope that again, we all benefit from the huge number we make all
together. The first time a press release is sent, it is a lot of work,
because it is necessary to prepare a big page of references and gather
adresses to write to. The second time, it is much easier.