from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
--- Richard Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:39:03 -0800 (PST), Rick
> <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > --- Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Rick wrote:

> > Would you allow someone to have a picture of a
> black
> > person being lynched on their page?
> >
> > RickK
> >
>
> That is a good question, and worthy of some thought.

...

> Perhaps a more relevant question is: Would we allow
> a photo of a
> Ku-Klux-Klan member wearing obvious identification
> of membership on
> their home page?  I think that we probably should.

That was going to be my followup question.  I don't
see how we can allow such thing.  Even on User pages.
We would have to allow swastikas.

I have a hammer and sickle on my page, which was
awarded to me and I've left it there.  Is anyone
offended by it (besides the anon who called me a
Communist for having it there)?

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject: [WikiEN-l] Logic is logic, that's all I say...

body:
--- Richard Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:
> But, in all seriousness, why would someone want to
> delete a subpage
> from someone's user space? Was there something
> inherently offensive
> about the page?
>
> Truly Mystified
>
> en.wikipedia:User:Rholton

Because the page in question had been involved in
several attempts at vanity vandalism by the subject of
the article, it went through a long, contentious
period of VfDing in which the subject of the article
spent a great deal of time and effort trying to
explain to us why he is notable, as well as repeated
deletion of the VfD header, repeated vandalism of the
VfD votes, and repeated creation of sockpuppet voters.
 When the article was deleted, the subject recreated
it so many times that it eventually it had to be
completed blank and protected.

Now the Wikipedia User in question has misused the VfU
process in order to get a copy of the non-notable page
in order to get a copy of it to put in his User space,
even though the article itself is of no consequence to
him or to the community in general, but only to flout
the consensus of the community.

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Don't push POV into the Wikipedia software and policies

body:
Richard Holton said:
> Proposal:
>
> Implement a new user preference that allow the user the option to
> filter image display based on category.
>
> Without entering into the technical feasibility or developer
> priorities, does anyone have an objection in principle to having such a
> feature? Why?

I think we've already considered this and it's getting thumbs up from a
wide range of people.  I see problems but there are workarounds.
I think the interface will suck compared to the browser-based filtering I
already use but apparently I'm the only person on this list with extensive
experience of day-to-day content filtering, and it's possible that my way
of using the web is vastly different from the way most people do.


from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

body:
> From: Richard Holton <richholton at gmail.com>
>
> Would we allow a photo of a
> Ku-Klux-Klan member wearing obvious identification of membership on
> their home page?  I think that we probably should.   -Rich Holton

NOTE: WIKIPEDIAN IN-JOKING AHEAD. NOT REALLY A SERIOUS COMMENT.

Recently, a user requested that someone post the text of a properly
VfDed article in Votes for Undeletion, for "viewing." A sysop did so.
The user promptly re-created the article in his user space.

It was promptly speedy-deleted on the grounds that it was re-creation
of a VfDed article.

So... deliberately mixing up two unrelated contexts, and indulging
myself in the hobgoblin of little minds:

Premise 1: a user's self-portrait in KKK regalia would be acceptable in
one's user space

Premise 2: a re-creation of a VfDed article is not acceptable in one's
user space.

Inference: To deal with self-portraits in KKK regalia, post the user's
page as an article, so it will be promptly VfDed as vanity, thereby
making it legitimately speedy-deletable from the user's page.

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Deathphoenix

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
Rick wrote:

>So you think it's appropriate to have a User name with
>88 in it (coded for "Heil Hitler") and to post a photo
>allegedly of themself in a Nazi uniform?
>
>RickK
>
>
Although in this cases, it is clearly Nazi in nature (with the edits and
photos to prove it), we should watch out before immediate judging other
cases. Some people use 8s in their username (including 88) because it is
the Chinese for good luck or fortune, and that the Buddhists use the
reverse swastika! I saw a guy parked in a car with a rear-view mirror
decoration adorned with what could easily be interpreted as a swastika.A
friend of mine uses "88" in his username, but is Chinese. In fact, this
mailing list is the first time I heard of the HH thing.

Cheers,

DPh


from_name: Nicholas Knight

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
Rick wrote:
> That was going to be my followup question.  I don't
> see how we can allow such thing.  Even on User pages.
> We would have to allow swastikas.

I think the question needs to be asked as to why we don't allow
swastikas on user pages. I don't neccessarily think we should, but the
argument should probably be articulated.

> I have a hammer and sickle on my page, which was
> awarded to me and I've left it there.  Is anyone
> offended by it (besides the anon who called me a
> Communist for having it there)?

I don't think the hammer and sickle has anywhere near the same effect
today as the swastika does. It's a fairly generic symbol for communism,
and communism, despite the actions of Stalin, is a far cry from nazism.


subject: [WikiEN-l] From Wikipedia-l--translations

body:
>From Wikipedia-l.

My top-of-the-head translations, hope this isn't a duplicate.

Mark Williamson said:
> "F?r die Menschheit" - Anon

For mankind.

> "Wikipedia ist eines der coolsten Projekte im Netz... ohne w?re ich
> wohl ab und an arg verloren. Rock on" - Sumedha Widyadharma

One of the coolest projects on the net.  Sometimes I'd be completely lost
without it.  Rock on!

> "In deze tijd een hoopvol initiatief" - Paul Hefting

A hopeful initiative in these times.

> "F?r Wissen und Freiheit" - Ralf Muno

For knowledge and freedom

> "Diese Wissensdatenbank ist es wert." - Maximillian Winkler

This knowledge data bank is worth it.

> "Super Projekt wenn ich mehr habe dann auch mehr Spende" - Anon

Super project.  And when I have more I will give more.

> "Wissen muss frei verf?gbar bleiben!" - Detlev Mahnert

Knowledge must stay freely available!

> "?nimo, gracias por hacer que avance la civilizaci?n / Toda gran
> cultura tiene su enciclopedia" - Anon

Spirit (?) thanks for doing something to advance the civilization.  All
great cultures have their encyclopedia.
> "Dankie vir 'n uitstekende diens." - David Roux

(guessing, I don't know much Dutch and I don't know any online translation
systems) Thanks for an outstanding service.
> "Dan Holmlund's mom is a butter balloon." -- ???

Untranslatable.


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
So you feel that you and you alone have the /right/ to deny or approve
the existance of a new Wikipedia, Mr Newberry?

Mark

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:31:54 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
> On Feb 21, 2005, at 8:27 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> > My main point is that no matter who gets to decide, it should NOT be
> > the general community. I personally think it should be the community
> > that uses that language, but obviously if the board does not like it
> > they have ultimate veto power.
> >
>
> The God-King drives a Hyundai, I don't believe you drive a Hyundai,
> therefore I don't believe you are the god-king. Please stop being so
> stingy with other people's rights.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

body:
Karl A. Krueger wrote:

> The issue here is not the Autofellatio photograph. It's a crappy
> photograph and the encyclopedia is better off without it.

What is it you find crappy about the photo Karl?

Christiaan


subject:
[WikiEN-l] One reason why Wikipedia
	is	not	presently	classroom-safe

body:
On 21 Feb 2005, at 12:50 pm, Tony Sidaway wrote:

> Christiaan Briggs said:
>> Tony Sidaway wrote:
>>
>>> Christiaan Briggs said:
>>>>
>>>> This function is NOT available in any browser; you cannot filter
>>>> images based on categorisation using a web browser.
>>>
>>> Well, not by categories chosen by someone else, no.
>>
>> Good I'm glad we can finally agree.
>
> Not quite. I'm left with the funny feeling that you think it's a
> ''good'' thing to permit other editors to control which parts of an
> article I will see, and a ''bad'' thing, or at least very inconvenient
> and messy, to exert that control myself. --~~~~

They wouldn't control what you see anymore than your browser would
control what you see. I'd appreciate a bit of intellectual honesty
Tony.

Christiaam


body:
Rich you might like to contribute to:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/End-user_content_suppression

Christiaan

Richard Holton wrote:

> Proposal:
>
> Implement a new user preference that allow the user the option to
> filter image display based on category.
>
> Without entering into the technical feasibility or developer
> priorities, does anyone have an objection in principle to having such
> a feature? Why?
>
> -Rich Holton


subject: [WikiEN-l] Orwell

body:
Thanks for whoever corrected that rubbish I wrote about the "drum of tea"
in Clergyman's Daughter.  It got lost in the mix today. JayJG? :)
Whoever, I owe you mucho wikimoney come year end.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Jimbo's speech video from Paris meeting

body:
Hi,

Thanks to Thomas from the association "Regarde ? vue" who recorded and
produced it, the video from Jimbo's speech on Paris meeting in July 2004 is
available at http://bleuenn.wikimedia.org:8080/paris_07_2004/
as well as the audio.

It's also available on Torrent:

http://bleuenn.wikimedia.org:8080/paris_07_2004/jimmy.wales.paris.07.2004.mkv.torrent

and eDonkey network:

ed2k://|file|[docu].[videobaseproject.net].wikipedia.jimmy.wales.paris.07.200
4{xvid+ogg}.mkv|335070246|FCAE33745C80226F9970C68447119D99|h=DCQ4Q6MWC4VVZIXH
OML5B3RI5YJWORPP|/

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] alphabetical order

body:
So, you want to ignore the problem of different collation orders for
different languages?
...or perhaps we can use the proper locale data, which will tell us
how to sort for each language.

This would also give us information on dates, which are for example
not quite right in some of the files, especially for underdevelopped
Wikipedias, and information on numbers and times ("PM"). It would also
provide us with the appropriate native name of the language to use in
interwiki links (iirc).

Mark

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:39:32 +0100, Tomasz Wegrzanowski
<taw at users.sf.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 21, 2005 at 09:22:17AM -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> > Petr Kadlec wrote:
> >
> > >Note that there is a bugreport about that in Bugzilla:
> > >http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164
> > >You can at least throw in a vote. :-)
> > >
> > I can sympathize with the idea, but one has to keep in mind that the
> > sort order should vary between one language and another.  In English we
> > would alphebetize "?" as though it were "ae" while Danish treats it as a
> > separate letter tagged on at the end of the alphabet.
>
> We can do a lot better than Unicode binary sort order.
>
> The sort order should not vary between Latin-script languages, because it
> should be script-dependent, not language-depedent (sorted words don't have
> to come from the same language, but merely have to be in the same script - think
> proper names). It's very unfortunate that there are different traditions
> for sorting Latin writing system.
>
> In most languages the right place for base letter X with diacritical mark Y
> is somewhere after plain letter X (and we can chose order of Ys that generates
> few conflicts).
>
> In some it sorts the same way as X, in which case sorting it after X
> is still much better than at the end of alphabet.
>
> The languages with such letters at the end, or with ever weirder orders are few,
> and we won't break any more than we currently do if we adapt "base, then base+diacritics"
> sorting.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Do you really think I'm /that/ stupid?

He said "stop being so stingy with other people's rights".

And on a tangent... how does he know I don't drive a Hyundai?? And who
says there can only be one god-king? "God-king" is a relative term. I
am God-king of myself, and a few other things, although not of
Wikipedia.

Mark

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:03:31 +0800, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> Stirling's "God-king" was not a reference to himself.
>
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:54:08 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So you feel that you and you alone have the /right/ to deny or approve
> > the existance of a new Wikipedia, Mr Newberry?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:31:54 -0500, Stirling Newberry
> > <stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Feb 21, 2005, at 8:27 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> > >
> > > > My main point is that no matter who gets to decide, it should NOT be
> > > > the general community. I personally think it should be the community
> > > > that uses that language, but obviously if the board does not like it
> > > > they have ultimate veto power.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The God-King drives a Hyundai, I don't believe you drive a Hyundai,
> > > therefore I don't believe you are the god-king. Please stop being so
> > > stingy with other people's rights.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
> --
>
> Andrew Lih, Assistant Professor
> Journalism and Media Studies Centre
> University of Hong Kong
> Email: alih at hku.hk | Web: http://jmsc.hku.hk/faculty/alih
> AOL IM: fuzheado | ICQ: 231894253
> Yahoo Messenger: andrew_lih | MSN Messenger: andrew_lih at msn.com
>


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report

body:
On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not
available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates
available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from
Day 3 but still does represent 18.34% of total funds collected so far
($35,904.88 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000).

Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the
downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large part
of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account
name.

Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the
downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation
page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it
(http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela).

Day  4			Day  3 comparison
Breakdown:
PayPal		USD equiv	USD equiv	%change
AUD	32	   $25.30         $330.90        -92.36%
CAD 	785	  $636.09         $238.93        166.23%
EUR 	1489.63	$1,947.24	$2,755.66  	 -29.34%
GBP 	332.06	  $630.18         $696.89         -9.57%
JPY	8501	   $80.58         $198.96         59.50%
USD	3266.76	$3,266.76	$3,596.33	  -9.16%
PayPal total:   $6,586.15	$7,817.66	 -15.75%

MoneyBookers
		                   $64.00	-100.00%

	TOTAL	$6,586.15	$7,881.66	-16.44%

Grand totals so far (only counting complete days)

PayPal		USD equiv	%GrandTotal
AUD	1150.4	     $909.39	 2.53%
CAD 	1571.01	   $1,272.99	 3.55%
EUR 	9926.89	  $12,976.44	36.14%
GBP 	1952.46	   $3,705.39	10.32%
JPY	82302.58     $780.15	 2.17%
USD	15833.85  $15,833.85	44.10%
PayPal total:	  $35,478.19

Moneybookers:
		     $426.69     1.19%

GRAND TOTAL	  $35,904.88	100.00%

% toward goal 	      47.87%

For the most recent grand total and other details visit
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1
(once everything is back up)

Some selected comments from Day 4:
See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a
day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then)

"I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous

"I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel

"You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science,
and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano

"Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka

"Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours
underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society with
your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba

"Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh

"I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than
quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp

"Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous

Some of my favorites:

"Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in users
as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by Rami
Lehti

"A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all those
ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have computers."
by Anonymous

"The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading the
one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth
Bhansali

"Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of two
Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, it
will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene

"Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma

Daniel Mayer,
Wikimedia CFO

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki Problems?

body:
Hey,

            Is there something wrong with the wikis?  I was trying to do
some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't
work.  Are they down right now, or did something else happen?

Thanks,

James


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report

body:
There was a mistake in the grand total table I sent before. Here is the correct
table (an email with all the correct tables will be resent shortly).

Grand totals so far (only counting complete days)

PayPal		USD equiv	%GrandTotal
AUD	1157.1	     $914.69	  2.62%
CAD 	1719.92	   $1,393.65	  3.99%
EUR 	9469.28	  $12,378.24	 35.42%
GBP 	1654.34	   $3,139.61	  8.98%
JPY	90723	     $859.96	  2.46%
USD	15833.85  $15,833.85	45.31%
PayPal total:	  $34,520.00

Moneybookers:
		 $426.69	 1.22%

GRAND TOTAL	$34,946.69	100.00%

% toward goal 		46.60%

--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not
> available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no
> updates
> available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from
> Day 3 but still does represent 18.34% of total funds collected so far
> ($35,904.88 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000).
>
> Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the
> downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large
> part
> of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account
> name.
>
> Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the
> downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation
> page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it
> (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela).
>
> Day  4			Day  3 comparison
> Breakdown:
> PayPal		USD equiv	USD equiv	%change
> AUD	32	   $25.30         $330.90        -92.36%
> CAD 	785	  $636.09         $238.93        166.23%
> EUR 	1489.63	$1,947.24	$2,755.66  	 -29.34%
> GBP 	332.06	  $630.18         $696.89         -9.57%
> JPY	8501	   $80.58         $198.96         59.50%
> USD	3266.76	$3,266.76	$3,596.33	  -9.16%
> PayPal total:   $6,586.15	$7,817.66	 -15.75%
>
> MoneyBookers
> 		                   $64.00	-100.00%
>
> 	TOTAL	$6,586.15	$7,881.66	-16.44%
>
> Grand totals so far (only counting complete days)
>
> PayPal		USD equiv	%GrandTotal
> AUD	1150.4	     $909.39	 2.53%
> CAD 	1571.01	   $1,272.99	 3.55%
> EUR 	9926.89	  $12,976.44	36.14%
> GBP 	1952.46	   $3,705.39	10.32%
> JPY	82302.58     $780.15	 2.17%
> USD	15833.85  $15,833.85	44.10%
> PayPal total:	  $35,478.19
>
> Moneybookers:
> 		     $426.69     1.19%
>
> GRAND TOTAL	  $35,904.88	100.00%
>
> % toward goal 	      47.87%
>
> For the most recent grand total and other details visit
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1
> (once everything is back up)
>
> Some selected comments from Day 4:
> See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a
> day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then)
>
> "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous
>
> "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel
>
> "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science,
> and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano
>
> "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka
>
> "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours
> underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society
> with
> your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba
>
> "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh
>
> "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than
> quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp
>
> "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous
>
> Some of my favorites:
>
> "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in
> users
> as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by
> Rami
> Lehti
>
> "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all
> those
> ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have
> computers."
> by Anonymous
>
> "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading
> the
> one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth
> Bhansali
>
> "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of
> two
> Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free,
> it
> will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene
>
> "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma
>
>
> Daniel Mayer,
> Wikimedia CFO
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (updated)

body:
Numbers have been updated and corrected.

On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not
available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates
available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from
Day 3 but still does represent 18.85% of total funds collected so far
($34,946.69 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000).

Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the
downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large part
of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account
name.

Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the
downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation
page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it
(http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela).

NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of them
will likely turn out to be canceled)

Day  4			        Day  3 comparison
Breakdown:
PayPal		USD equiv	USD equiv	%change
AUD	32	     $25.30       $330.90	-92.36%
CAD 	785	    $636.09	  $238.93	166.23%
EUR 	1489.63	  $1,947.24	$2,755.66	-29.34%
GBP 	332.06	   $630.18	  $696.89	 -9.57%
JPY	8501	    $80.58	  $198.96	-59.50%
USD	3266.76	 $3,266.76	$3,596.33	 -9.16%
PayPal total:	 $6,586.15	$7,817.66	-15.75%

MoneyBookers
		 no data           $64.00	-100.00%

	TOTAL	$6,586.15	$7,881.66	-16.44%

Grand totals so far (only counting complete days)

PayPal		   USD equiv	%GrandTotal
AUD	1157.1	     $914.69	 2.62%
CAD 	1719.92	   $1,393.65	 3.99%
EUR 	9469.28	  $12,378.24	35.42%
GBP 	1654.34	   $3,139.61	 8.98%
JPY	90723	     $859.96	 2.46%
USD	15833.85  $15,833.85	45.31%
PayPal total:	  $34,520.00

Moneybookers:
		     $426.69	1.22%

GRAND TOTAL	  $34,946.69	100.00%

% toward goal 	    46.60%

For the most recent grand total and other details visit
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1
(once everything is back up)

Some selected comments from Day 4:
See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a
day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then)

"I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous

"I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel

"You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science,
and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano

"Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka

"Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours
underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society with
your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba

"Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh

"I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than
quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp

"Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous

Some of my favorites:

"Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in users
as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by Rami
Lehti

"A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all those
ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have computers."
by Anonymous

"The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading the
one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth
Bhansali

"Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of two
Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, it
will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene

"Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma

Daniel Mayer,
Wikimedia CFO

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (updated)


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] alphabetical order

body:
On Mon, Feb 21, 2005 at 09:22:17AM -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Petr Kadlec wrote:
>
> >Note that there is a bugreport about that in Bugzilla:
> >http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164
> >You can at least throw in a vote. :-)
> >
> I can sympathize with the idea, but one has to keep in mind that the
> sort order should vary between one language and another.  In English we
> would alphebetize "?" as though it were "ae" while Danish treats it as a
> separate letter tagged on at the end of the alphabet.

We can do a lot better than Unicode binary sort order.

The sort order should not vary between Latin-script languages, because it
should be script-dependent, not language-depedent (sorted words don't have
to come from the same language, but merely have to be in the same script - think
proper names). It's very unfortunate that there are different traditions
for sorting Latin writing system.

In most languages the right place for base letter X with diacritical mark Y
is somewhere after plain letter X (and we can chose order of Ys that generates
few conflicts).

In some it sorts the same way as X, in which case sorting it after X
is still much better than at the end of alphabet.

The languages with such letters at the end, or with ever weirder orders are few,
and we won't break any more than we currently do if we adapt "base, then base+diacritics"
sorting.


from_name: Kate Turner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: What's the status of Wikipedia?

body:
Rick wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english:

> I keep getting "The page cannot be displayed" for both
> en.wikipedia.org and www.wikipedia.org.

there was a power failure in our colocation facility.  we're currently
working on recovering the database, which involves making a backup of the
data (170GB+), and thus takes quite a while.

> RickK

kate.


from_name: Anders Wegge Jakobsen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] alphabetical order

body:
"Tomasz" == Tomasz Wegrzanowski <taw at users.sourceforge.net> writes:

> On Mon, Feb 21, 2005 at 09:22:17AM -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>> Petr Kadlec wrote:
>>
>> >Note that there is a bugreport about that in Bugzilla:
>> >http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164
>> >You can at least throw in a vote. :-)
>> >
>> I can sympathize with the idea, but one has to keep in mind that the
>> sort order should vary between one language and another.  In English we
>> would alphebetize "?" as though it were "ae" while Danish treats it as a
>> separate letter tagged on at the end of the alphabet.

> We can do a lot better than Unicode binary sort order.

> The sort order should not vary between Latin-script languages,
> because it should be script-dependent, not language-depedent (sorted
> words don't have to come from the same language, but merely have to
> be in the same script - think proper names). It's very unfortunate
> that there are different traditions for sorting Latin writing
> system.

> In most languages the right place for base letter X with diacritical mark Y
> is somewhere after plain letter X (and we can chose order of Ys that generates
> few conflicts).

 Given that danish have com up in the discussion, I will hasten to
point out that the danish letter "?" is interchangeable with "aa". In
/some/ cases. For Instace, the german city Aachen has a collation
order in the start of any list, where as the danish city Aalborg
(?lborg) comes at the end of any collation.

 In short, nothing is as simple as it seems.

> In some it sorts the same way as X, in which case sorting it after X
> is still much better than at the end of alphabet.

> The languages with such letters at the end, or with ever weirder
> orders are few, and we won't break any more than we currently do if
> we adapt "base, then base+diacritics" sorting.

 Probably not, but the danes are still going to complain about those
two examples, no matter what's done.

--
/Wegge
<http://wiki.wegge.dk/Usenet>
mailto:awegge at gmail.com - Invitationer p? FCFS basis


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] (fwd) [Wikitech-l] scheduled downtime warning

body:
----- Forwarded message from Kate Turner <keturner at livejournal.com> -----

From: Kate Turner <keturner at livejournal.com>
Reply-To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org, wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
Cc:
Subject: [Wikitech-l] scheduled downtime warning
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:05:04 +0000
>From fun  Tue Feb 22 01:58:43 2005
Delivery-date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:58:43 +1100
X-Original-To: wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
Organization: Wikimedia Foundation
X-BeenThere: wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
List-Id: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l.wikimedia.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l>,
	<mailto:wikitech-l-request at wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l>
List-Post: <mailto:wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
List-Help: <mailto:wikitech-l-request at wikimedia.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l>,
	<mailto:wikitech-l-request at wikimedia.org?subject=subscribe>

hello,

all projects will be offline at some point today while routine network
maintenance is being performed.??this?is?not?expected?to?last?more?than?an
hour or so.??

apologies for any inconvenience...

kate.

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

----- End forwarded message -----


subject: [Wikipedia-l] alphabetical order

body:
On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 01:52:48AM +0100, Anders Wegge Jakobsen wrote:
> > In most languages the right place for base letter X with diacritical mark Y
> > is somewhere after plain letter X (and we can chose order of Ys that generates
> > few conflicts).
>
>  Given that danish have com up in the discussion, I will hasten to
> point out that the danish letter "?" is interchangeable with "aa". In
> /some/ cases. For Instace, the german city Aachen has a collation
> order in the start of any list, where as the danish city Aalborg
> (?lborg) comes at the end of any collation.
>
>  In short, nothing is as simple as it seems.
>
> > The languages with such letters at the end, or with ever weirder
> > orders are few, and we won't break any more than we currently do if
> > we adapt "base, then base+diacritics" sorting.
>
>  Probably not, but the danes are still going to complain about those
> two examples, no matter what's done.

We should just get it right for 80% of cases with 20% of effort.
It's much better than having it broken for 100% of cases, as it is now.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (updated)

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> I could install MediaWiki at home (it runs on FreeBSD, right?) and hack on

I've installed it on FreeBSD 4.10 in the past (with the various
dependencies compiled from ports) with no problems.


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

subject: [Wikipedia-l] alphabetical order

body:
Kaixo!

On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 01:39:32AM +0100, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

> The sort order should not vary between Latin-script languages, because it
> should be script-dependent, not language-depedent

Then it is not sort order and it is no much better than
the current binary sorting order.

And having an ordering like you propose or a correct ordering
for each language the same level of complexity to implement,
so why don't do it right?

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20050222/39861160/attachment.pgp


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki Problems?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> James R. Johnson wrote:
>>             Is there something wrong with the wikis?  I was trying to do
>> some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't
>> work.  Are they down right now, or did something else happen?
>
> There was some sort of power failure at the colocation facility. We're
> in the process of rebooting and recovering machines.

The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the
colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies
but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network
switch to unceremoniously shut down.

Whether a problem in MySQL, with our server configurations, or with the
hardware (or some combination thereof), most of our database servers
managed to glitch the data on disk when they went down. (Yes, we use
InnoDB tables. This ain't good enough, apparently.)

The good news: one server maintained a good copy, which we've been
copying to the others to get things back on track. We're now serving all
wikis read-only.

The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it
was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around
170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update
logs before we can restore read/write service.

I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it
should be within 12 hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/3217db09/attachment.pgp


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> James R. Johnson wrote:
>>             Is there something wrong with the wikis?  I was trying to do
>> some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't
>> work.  Are they down right now, or did something else happen?
>
> There was some sort of power failure at the colocation facility. We're
> in the process of rebooting and recovering machines.

The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the
colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies
but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network
switch to unceremoniously shut down.

Whether a problem in MySQL, with our server configurations, or with the
hardware (or some combination thereof), most of our database servers
managed to glitch the data on disk when they went down. (Yes, we use
InnoDB tables. This ain't good enough, apparently.)

The good news: one server maintained a good copy, which we've been
copying to the others to get things back on track. We're now serving all
wikis read-only.

The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it
was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around
170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update
logs before we can restore read/write service.

I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it
should be within 12 hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/3217db09/attachment-0001.pgp


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> James R. Johnson wrote:
>>             Is there something wrong with the wikis?  I was trying to do
>> some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't
>> work.  Are they down right now, or did something else happen?
>
> There was some sort of power failure at the colocation facility. We're
> in the process of rebooting and recovering machines.

The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the
colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies
but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network
switch to unceremoniously shut down.

Whether a problem in MySQL, with our server configurations, or with the
hardware (or some combination thereof), most of our database servers
managed to glitch the data on disk when they went down. (Yes, we use
InnoDB tables. This ain't good enough, apparently.)

The good news: one server maintained a good copy, which we've been
copying to the others to get things back on track. We're now serving all
wikis read-only.

The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it
was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around
170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update
logs before we can restore read/write service.

I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it
should be within 12 hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20050222/3217db09/attachment.pgp>


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> James R. Johnson wrote:
>>             Is there something wrong with the wikis?  I was trying to do
>> some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't
>> work.  Are they down right now, or did something else happen?
>
> There was some sort of power failure at the colocation facility. We're
> in the process of rebooting and recovering machines.

The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the
colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies
but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network
switch to unceremoniously shut down.

Whether a problem in MySQL, with our server configurations, or with the
hardware (or some combination thereof), most of our database servers
managed to glitch the data on disk when they went down. (Yes, we use
InnoDB tables. This ain't good enough, apparently.)

The good news: one server maintained a good copy, which we've been
copying to the others to get things back on track. We're now serving all
wikis read-only.

The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it
was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around
170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update
logs before we can restore read/write service.

I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it
should be within 12 hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20050222/3217db09/attachment-0001.pgp>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki Problems?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> James R. Johnson wrote:
>>             Is there something wrong with the wikis?  I was trying to do
>> some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't
>> work.  Are they down right now, or did something else happen?
>
> There was some sort of power failure at the colocation facility. We're
> in the process of rebooting and recovering machines.

The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the
colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies
but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network
switch to unceremoniously shut down.

Whether a problem in MySQL, with our server configurations, or with the
hardware (or some combination thereof), most of our database servers
managed to glitch the data on disk when they went down. (Yes, we use
InnoDB tables. This ain't good enough, apparently.)

The good news: one server maintained a good copy, which we've been
copying to the others to get things back on track. We're now serving all
wikis read-only.

The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it
was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around
170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update
logs before we can restore read/write service.

I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it
should be within 12 hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20050222/3217db09/attachment.pgp


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki Problems?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> James R. Johnson wrote:
>>             Is there something wrong with the wikis?  I was trying to do
>> some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't
>> work.  Are they down right now, or did something else happen?
>
> There was some sort of power failure at the colocation facility. We're
> in the process of rebooting and recovering machines.

The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the
colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies
but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network
switch to unceremoniously shut down.

Whether a problem in MySQL, with our server configurations, or with the
hardware (or some combination thereof), most of our database servers
managed to glitch the data on disk when they went down. (Yes, we use
InnoDB tables. This ain't good enough, apparently.)

The good news: one server maintained a good copy, which we've been
copying to the others to get things back on track. We're now serving all
wikis read-only.

The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it
was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around
170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update
logs before we can restore read/write service.

I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it
should be within 12 hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050222/3217db09/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe

body:
Fleischer wrote:
> I wish to unsubscribe.  Please show how.
>                                                             Thanks,
>                                                                            LF
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I've unsubscribed you. For future reference, you can unsubscribe
yourself or suspend mail delivery by logging in at the URL listed in the
footer of every message send through the list. (Reproduced above.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/b194dea6/attachment.pgp


subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe

body:
Fleischer wrote:
> I wish to unsubscribe.  Please show how.
>                                                             Thanks,
>                                                                            LF
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I've unsubscribed you. For future reference, you can unsubscribe
yourself or suspend mail delivery by logging in at the URL listed in the
footer of every message send through the list. (Reproduced above.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/b194dea6/attachment-0001.pgp


subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe

body:
Fleischer wrote:
> I wish to unsubscribe.  Please show how.
>                                                             Thanks,
>                                                                            LF
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I've unsubscribed you. For future reference, you can unsubscribe
yourself or suspend mail delivery by logging in at the URL listed in the
footer of every message send through the list. (Reproduced above.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20050222/b194dea6/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe

body:
Fleischer wrote:
> I wish to unsubscribe.  Please show how.
>                                                             Thanks,
>                                                                            LF
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I've unsubscribed you. For future reference, you can unsubscribe
yourself or suspend mail delivery by logging in at the URL listed in the
footer of every message send through the list. (Reproduced above.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20050222/b194dea6/attachment-0001.pgp>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Spam

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Yann Forget wrote:
>>It is quite urgent to implement a spamfilter on Wikimedia servers.
>>
>>I already proposed several times to help set up this.
>
> <snip spam>
>
> Maybe the lists can be restricted to registered users only ?

The lists are restricted to registered users only, but we hold other
mails in the moderation queue rather than discarding them outright.

This means a lot of spam gets in the moderation queue, which nobody ever
sees except the list admins. I keep hearing a rumor that we've set up
SpamAssassin but I guess it hasn't really gotten done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050222/788644c6/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
I'll admit that I had interest in those threads when they started, but after
a while I just deleted, without reading, the output of the principle
posters. The dialog had ceased to have new or interesting information,
assuming I was here to chat, let alone form Wikipedia policy.

Fred

> From: Viajero <viajero at quilombo.nl>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:52:34 +0100
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiEN-L needs dailing posting limits
>
> Hi all,
>
> This list *urgently* needs to adopt daily posting limits. A certain user
> (you know who you are) recently posted some THIRTY times in 24 hours to
> the list on the topic of "One reason why Wikipedia is not presently
> classroom-safe", with some postings only two minutes apart. This is a
> great discourtesy to other subscribers to this list. I realize topics
> such as explicit photos are contentious and will not be solved without
> long discussion, but threads like the above-mentioned where a couple of
> users are responsible for like messages in 24 hours make it exceedingly
> difficult for the rest of us to follow the discussion. I would like to
> know what various people think about these topics but I don't want to
> have to scroll through two hundred messages to find out.
>
> Another busy list I subscribe to has a daily posting limit of three
> messages per subscriber. Go above that, you get put on moderation
> (messages get routed first to the listmaster). WikiEN-L urgently needs
> something similar.
>
>
> V.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
A digest contains ALL the crap. It is much easier to identify and delete
spam based on author. However spam of the volume we are receiving degrades
the dialog. So the topic itself must serve as a rough guide to theads which
have become senseless and useless.

Fred

> From: David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:20:38 +1100
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] WikiEN-L needs dailing posting limits
>
> Viajero (viajero at quilombo.nl) [050222 23:50]:
>
>> This list *urgently* needs to adopt daily posting limits. A certain user
>
>
> Any user can go to the list page:
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> - and (using the bit at the bottom) set their mail feed to daily digest or
> individual mails at will, and change it back at will.
>
> Using this as a workaround is more likely to give you the result you're
> after (a lack of tons of stuff in your mailbox) in the immediate future.
>
> Besides, we're all suffering wikiwithdrawal.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject:
Reputation (was Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,	and
	Chinese Wikipedia again)

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Do you really think I'm /that/ stupid?
>
He probably does, actually. Despite repeated hints that it's
counterproductive, you continue to try to browbeat people into
doing what you want.

As someone who's lived on the net for some 23 years now, let me
pass along a bit of advice. You start with a default fund of
reputation from other netizens. You do good things, like copyedit
a thousand articles or supply a bit of requested info, your fund
goes up. You do bad things, like call someone a nasty name in
public, your fund goes down.

Why does this matter? If your fund of reputation is high, you can
merely suggest an idea, and people will rush to make it happen.
If your fund is low, others will dislike your idea, *even if it's
a good idea*. Unfair, perhaps, but that's how interpersonal
relationships work, on the net as elsewere.

Some people even tried to let you know when your fund crossed zero
and headed into negative territory, but you blew right on by without
slowing down. So, if you want to have any chance at all of having
any influence on things, I suggest you cool it with all the
accusations and criticism - I think you do enough worthwhile things
normally that your reputation will eventually get back to the
positive side again.

Stan


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Christiaan Briggs said:
> What is it you find crappy about the photo Karl?

Actually it just struck me why that is such a crappy photo.  The guy in it
obviously thinks some things are more important than editing Wikipedia!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Day 3 Fund Drive Report

body:
Daniel Mayer (maveric149 at yahoo.com) [050222 07:41]:

> "Possibly the greatest project ever undertaken by humankind, wish I had more to
> give" by Anonymous

Now *that*'s what we like to hear!

> "Because the world needs an encyclopedia with a full Pokemon section." by
> Anonymous

Hence the Pokemon Comparative Notability Test on [[:en:WP:VFD]] ;-)

- d.


body:
Christiaan Briggs said:
>
> On 21 Feb 2005, at 12:50 pm, Tony Sidaway wrote:
>
>> Christiaan Briggs said:
>>> Tony Sidaway wrote:
>>>
>>>> Christiaan Briggs said:
>>>>>
>>>>> This function is NOT available in any browser; you cannot filter
>>>>> images based on categorisation using a web browser.
>>>>
>>>> Well, not by categories chosen by someone else, no.
>>>
>>> Good I'm glad we can finally agree.
>>
>> Not quite. I'm left with the funny feeling that you think it's a
>> ''good'' thing to permit other editors to control which parts of an
>> article I will see, and a ''bad'' thing, or at least very inconvenient
>>  and messy, to exert that control myself. --~~~~
>
> They wouldn't control what you see anymore than your browser would
> control what you see. I'd appreciate a bit of intellectual honesty

Please refrain from personal attacks.

My statement is correct as far as I am aware.   If not, please explain.


body:
On 22 Feb 2005, at 8:01 am, Tony Sidaway wrote:

> Christiaan Briggs said:
>>
>> On 21 Feb 2005, at 12:50 pm, Tony Sidaway wrote:
>>
>>> Christiaan Briggs said:
>>>> Tony Sidaway wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Christiaan Briggs said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This function is NOT available in any browser; you cannot filter
>>>>>> images based on categorisation using a web browser.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, not by categories chosen by someone else, no.
>>>>
>>>> Good I'm glad we can finally agree.
>>>
>>> Not quite. I'm left with the funny feeling that you think it's a
>>> ''good'' thing to permit other editors to control which parts of an
>>> article I will see, and a ''bad'' thing, or at least very
>>> inconvenient and messy, to exert that control myself. --~~~~
>>
>> They wouldn't control what you see anymore than your browser would
>> control what you see. I'd appreciate a bit of intellectual honesty
>
> Please refrain from personal attacks.
>
> My statement is correct as far as I am aware.   If not, please explain.

Well you'll have to excuse me, you seem clear enough of mind not to
have missed this: as we discussed image holders could be used in the
same way as using your browser to defer image downloads. The difference
would be that only some of the images would be deferred instead of all
of them.

Christiaan


from_name: Neil Harris

body:
Nicholas Knight wrote:

> Rick wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid that there is going to be a lot of edit
>> warring as we try to put things into categories like
>> "Offensive images" or "pictures of human body parts"
>> or "Violent imagery".
>
>
> There's no reason to have the word "offensive" appear in a category at
> all. Categories like "frontal nudity", "blood and gore", "depiction of
> sexual act", are all fairly neutral and should be easy to come to a
> consensus on.
>
That's right. Note that the category system allows multiple categories
to be applied to the same content, so that filtering may be made
fine-grained, and context-sensitive, if desired. Consider the possible
treatment of medical images, for example.

-- Neil


from_name: Lane, Ryan

subject: [Wikitech-l] Some extensions...

body:
I like the bread crumbs idea a lot. It would be nice if this feature was
available without having to add the options into an article. For instance,
adding the options you want to use in LocalSettings.php, and the breadcrumbs
trace from anywhere you start at.

Something like this is much better than having to use the back button (which
is a serious pita when editing a lot).

Ryan Lane
Naval Oceanographic Office

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	wikitech-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
> [SMTP:wikitech-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sebastien BARRE
> Sent:	Monday, February 21, 2005 3:23 PM
> To:	wikitech-l at wikimedia.org; mediawiki-l at wikimedia.org
> Subject:	[Wikitech-l] Some extensions...
>
> Hi,
>
> I've created some extensions to make my life easier documenting some of
> our
> projects.
> Feel free to give them a shot, and use them at will:
> http://public.kitware.com/Wiki/User:Barre/Extensions
>
> Suggestions are welcome.
> Bare in mind that I started fiddling with the MediaWiki API a little more
> than one week ago, so hold on with the flaming.
>
> --
> Sebastien Barre
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


body:
No more so than is taking place with controversial images already. And
as Nicholas has noted categories are highly unlikely to be have such
vague labels as "offensive". The point, remember, is that we are trying
to identify not "offensive" but "potentially offensive", therefore
category labels would be chosen for the NPOV quality. Can you really
see people arguing over whether an image is of "human body parts"?

Christiaan

Rick wrote:

> I'm afraid that there is going to be a lot of edit warring as we try
> to put things into categories like "Offensive images" or "pictures of
> human body parts" or "Violent imagery".
>
> RickK


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

> Christiaan Briggs said:
>> What is it you find crappy about the photo Karl?
>
> Actually it just struck me why that is such a crappy photo.  The guy
> in it obviously thinks some things are more important than editing
> Wikipedia!

:)


from_name: Fleischer

subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe

body:
I wish to unsubscribe.  Please show how.
                                                            Thanks,
                                                                           LF


subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe


subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Saintonge" <saintonge at telus.net>
To: "Robin Shannon" <robin.shannon at gmail.com>; "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing
List" <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] currency POV

>I was being perfectly literal.  Of course now there are some malls that
>cater to Canadian business, and the merchants in those malls would fall in
>line with the mall's policy.  Apart from that, and a few others who are a
>little more knowledgeable, rather than informing themselves of exchange
>rates they tend to look at Canadian currency as some kind of multicoloured
>play money.  Canadians quickly adapt and don't bother trying to use
>Canadian currency there.
>
> To say that ALL Canadian merchants accept US currency would be a little
> absolute.  One can always find exceptions to a rule.  It should come as no
> surprise that a British study a few years ago about jokes determined that
> the most popular joke topic among Canadians was Americans. :-)
>
> Of course too, New Zealander comments about Australians aren't always
> kindly. ;-)
>
> Ec
>
> Robin Shannon wrote:
>
>>At the risk of flaming race riots, this intrigues me. What do you mean
>>they are confused by canadian $s. As in they do not know the exchange
>>rate? And do all canadian merchants accept US$, or all merchants near
>>the border? Either way that seems very strange (then again as an
>>Australian land borders seem very strange)
>>
>>if this is getting too offtopic, then you can reply to me personaly.
>>
>>paz y amor,
>>-[[User:The bellman]]
>>
>>On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>It's not a matter of NPOV at all.  It's a matter of avoiding
>>>ambiguities.  Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $
>>>is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused
>>>when any curency than their own is mentioned.  It's quite common for US
>>>merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency
>>>because they don't understand it.  A Canadian merchant will except the
>>>US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates.
>>>
>>>This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our
>>>streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing.
>>>
>>>Ec
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>


subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV


from_name: Brian DeGonia

subject: [WikiEN-l] Zend Platform

body:
Hi,

I'm not sure who to contact, so here goes.  Zend Technologies, the pHp
company, would like to donate licenses of its Zend Platform product to
your organization.  Zend Platform is an integrated software platform for
pHp that enhances performance, detect run-time problems and helps with
pHp configurations across servers.

If there is an interest, please contact me at brian at zend.com

Thanks!
-B

Brian DeGonia
Zend Technologies
www.zend.com <http://www.zend.com/>

415.269.2878  (mobile)


from_name: Nicholas Knight

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: blocking policy over personal attacks

references:
<cvb9v2$d87$1@sea.gmane.org>	<BAY13-F39E54F6DBBEEBF0E830F2AB0610@phx.gbl>
	<1bfe3eb05022208317b8e9e4c@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Theresa Knott wrote:
> Unfortunately for them, they have revealed thier IP address. If they
> come back after the 23rd I suggest we block the IP as well as whatever
> the latest sockpuppet is for a long period (a month say)
>
> A reverse DNS gives 216-55-149-21.dedicated.abac.net.

The "dedicated" bit made me think this is probably a static address and
thus maybe some information could be found on its owner, so I googled
it. It looks like a system at this address is serving as an exit node
for an anonymizing network. This makes it virtually certain he'll be
able to easily show up again with an entirely different IP coming from
an entirely different ISP. It also makes it virtually impossible to say
for certain whether it's anyone we know at this point.


subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiEN-L needs dailing posting limits

body:
Viajero wrote:
> to be a problem, some kind of voluntary agreement, like the three revert
> rule, may be the only solution.

The 3RR is not an agreement nor is it voluntary, as implied by the word
"rule". People, including those that had no hand in formulating or
adopting it, are routinely held to it and blocked for violation of it.


from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
Rick wrote:

>I have a hammer and sickle on my page, which was
>awarded to me and I've left it there.  Is anyone
>offended by it (besides the anon who called me a
>Communist for having it there)?
>
>
I rarely get offended but anything at all, so neither swastikas nor
hammers and sickles bother me, but I'd say they both bother me about
equally to the extent that they have any effect on me at all.  Both are
symbols of totalitarianism and state murder.

(But symbols themselves never killed anyone, only the people who follow
the symbols.)

-Mark


body:
This illustrates the whole problem with this area, finding a middle ground.
Although many of our potential readers might object to these images they are
unobjectionable. That should not rule out sensible limits on offensive
images. But we seem on Votes for Deletion to be running into some problems.
I think one of the problems is a lack of feedback from consumers which
affects those who take an extreme position. In the real world there are
costs associated with exceeding reasonable bounds.

Fred

> From: "Tony Sidaway" <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:38:39 -0000 (GMT)
> To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV and category-based image filtering
>
> We are supposed to do so in a manner consistent with the neutral point of
> view.  Deciding that Leonardo's Vitruvian Man or Ann Druyan's drawing for
> the Voyager plaque should not be displayed on the page seems to me to be
> inescapably bound to the point of view that drawings of naked humans are
> unacceptable.


from_name: Sebastien BARRE

subject: [Wikitech-l] Some extensions...

body:
At 2/22/2005 09:30 AM, Lane, Ryan wrote:
>I like the bread crumbs idea a lot.

Thanks. I borrowed that idea from DokuWiki (check the "Thanks" section in
the doc), this option is builtin.

>It would be nice if this feature was
>available without having to add the options into an article. For instance,
>adding the options you want to use in LocalSettings.php, and the breadcrumbs
>trace from anywhere you start at.

OK, sounds good. You can already use the extension anywhere in the
layout/template, as mentionned in the doc, but you are right, it does not
take parameter anymore in that form, since PHP's TAL require a
parameter-less callback. So I can either read global parameter from
LocalSettings.php, I'll keep that in mind, or, provide decent defaults and
have those options be parts of the user options, I'll think about it...

--
Sebastien Barre


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
--- Michael Bracker <m-wikipedia at bracker.name> wrote:
> Daniel Mayer schrieb:
> > Numbers have been updated and corrected.
>
> when do you think we can get the first figures from wikimedia Germany?
>
> would be great if they could be included :-)

Hopefully soon. :)

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV writing about extreme right-wing topics

body:
=>From: Matt R <matt_crypto at yahoo.co.uk>
=>
=>I posit that Wikipedia
=>would be better off with a well-behaved, NPOV-writing Neo-Nazi than
=>without;
=>could such an individual exist?
=
=I agree with this in theory; I've just never met one who fit the
criteria.
=
=Jay.

You've met *me*, and we all know that Unificationists are well to the
right of Adolf Hitler. I'm the most conservative, homophobic,
anti-scientific, pro-brainwashing, POV-pushing contributor to Wikipedia.
(Er, to hear others tell it, anyway ;-)

And yet I manage to write so neutrally on many topics that people
regularly come to me for help when there's an edit war on all sorts of
controversial articles. (Except those topics on which I have known blind
spots).

So it *is* possible for a writer to temper their extreme POV and write
neutrally.

Ed "The thick-skinned one" Poor
aka Uncle Ed


body:
=> Viajero wrote:
=> > to be a problem, some kind of voluntary agreement, like the three
revert
=> > rule, may be the only solution.
=>
=> The 3RR is not an agreement nor is it voluntary, as implied by the
word
=> "rule". People, including those that had no hand in formulating or
=> adopting it, are routinely held to it and blocked for violation of
it.

Jimbo occasionally has weighed in and said a particular thread has gone
on long enough.

Also, when I ran the list, I would occasionally send "talkative" people
a private e-mail asking them to post less often. I mean, some people
would post 10+ times a day EVERY DAY, and it would get out of hand. Once
or twice, I actually put someone's posts into "hold for review"
purgatory.

But now with the database locked, there's nothing else to do but talk
about Wikipedia, so brace yourself for a flood.

Uncle Ed


body:
Gerrit Holl wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:48:17 +0100 (CET)
>>
>>The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it
>>was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around
>>170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update
>>logs before we can restore read/write service.
>>
>>I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it
>>should be within 12 hours.
>
>
> Will any changes be lost?

As far as we know no, no changes should be lost (except potentially a
handful at the very end).

Update logs are still replaying, but we're up to 42 minutes prior to the
crash on one machine and still going. I don't expect problems.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20050222/258d18c7/attachment.pgp


body:
Gerrit Holl wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:48:17 +0100 (CET)
>>
>>The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it
>>was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around
>>170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update
>>logs before we can restore read/write service.
>>
>>I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it
>>should be within 12 hours.
>
>
> Will any changes be lost?

As far as we know no, no changes should be lost (except potentially a
handful at the very end).

Update logs are still replaying, but we're up to 42 minutes prior to the
crash on one machine and still going. I don't expect problems.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050222/258d18c7/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Chip Berlet

body:
Hi,

As someone who has studied, written about, and opposed the political right for over 20 years, I may surprise some by saying that I correspond with a wide range of intellectuals on the political right who are quite able to understand the concept of an NPOV encyclopedia article--and this ranges from the Christian Right out to neonazis (not the same thing, thanks).

Bad manners in editing have no political, class, gender, race or any other boundaries.  Jerks are jerks.  It is the behavior we need to sanction, not the ideas.

Ironically, I write this although if you search the web you will find many articles by rightwingers saying that I do not hold these pluralistic civil society beliefs. They do not do their homework and cannot rise abouve their bias. Those that do homework, strive for NPOV, and have good collaborative manners make good editors.

Chip Berlet

________________________________

From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org on behalf of Poor, Edmund W
Sent: Tue 2/22/2005 10:09 AM
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV writing about extreme right-wing topics

=>From: Matt R <matt_crypto at yahoo.co.uk>
=>
=>I posit that Wikipedia
=>would be better off with a well-behaved, NPOV-writing Neo-Nazi than
=>without;
=>could such an individual exist?
=
=I agree with this in theory; I've just never met one who fit the
criteria.
=
=Jay.

You've met *me*, and we all know that Unificationists are well to the
right of Adolf Hitler. I'm the most conservative, homophobic,
anti-scientific, pro-brainwashing, POV-pushing contributor to Wikipedia.
(Er, to hear others tell it, anyway ;-)

And yet I manage to write so neutrally on many topics that people
regularly come to me for help when there's an edit war on all sorts of
controversial articles. (Except those topics on which I have known blind
spots).

So it *is* possible for a writer to temper their extreme POV and write
neutrally.

Ed "The thick-skinned one" Poor
aka Uncle Ed
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Phil Sandifer

body:
You could always killfile the worst offenders...

But I think, really, this becomes a small issue of mailing list
etiquette. it is rarely the case that every post in a thread needs
responding to. Generally, if you write one or two responses, you will
have made every point that you intend to make, and further posting will
amount to restating the same point in response to different arguments.

But I've also never seen a mailing list where everybody gets this point
on every thread. So, really, you're probably SOL.

-Snowspinner

On Feb 22, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Viajero wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:20:38 +1100, David Gerard
> <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
>> and (using the bit at the bottom) set their mail feed to daily digest
>
> and Zoney wrote:
>
>> Using an email system that groups messages by thread is very helpful.
>
> Neither digests nor fancy mailers solve the issue of overposting.
> Besides, digests cause other problems. I use Thunderbird, which is
> very proficient at sorting messages by thread, even when the subject
> is changed. But the sorting system fails when people who subscribe to
> the digest version post a reply by replying the digest message or by
> starting a new message.
>
> In short, there is no quick & easy tech fix (AFAIK, Mailman, the
> program this list uses, does not support daily quotas). If overposting
> continues to be a problem, some kind of voluntary agreement, like the
> three revert rule, may be the only solution.
>
>
> V.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Christiaan Briggs said:
>
> Well you'll have to excuse me, you seem clear enough of mind not to
> have missed this: as we discussed image holders could be used in the
> same way as using your browser to defer image downloads. The difference
>  would be that only some of the images would be deferred instead of all
>  of them.

It seems to me that which images are to be deferred would be decided by
someone other than the reader.  This would probably compromise NPOV.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Don't push POV into the Wikipedia software and policies

body:
Christiaan Briggs said:
> No more so than is taking place with controversial images already. And
> as Nicholas has noted categories are highly unlikely to be have such
> vague labels as "offensive". The point, remember, is that we are trying
>  to identify not "offensive" but "potentially offensive"

As we've discovered in recent discussions, there is no firm agreement on
what constitutes potentially offensive content.  Some are holding even the
hammer and sickle to be potentially offensive, while others have used the
word "taste" in describing a picture of an abused child.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

>A digest contains ALL the crap. It is much easier to identify and delete
>spam based on author. However spam of the volume we are receiving degrades
>the dialog. So the topic itself must serve as a rough guide to theads which
>have become senseless and useless.
>
That, and if you want to reply to one item in the thread it's more
complicated than a simple reply.

Ec


from_name: Rick

body:
--- Theresa Knott <theresaknott at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:55:56 -0500, JAY JG
> <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And more have come back and (along with inserting
> their views in various
> > articles) have continued to harrass and threaten
> TBSDY; for example:
>
>  15 Feb 2005, David Gerard blocked NSM88
>  17 Feb 2005, Ta bu shi da yu blocked SS88
>  17 Feb 2005, Ta bu shi da yu blocked SS-88
> 12:55, 21 Feb 2005, The Anome blocked 216.55.149.21
> (expires 12:55, 23 Feb 2005)
>
> I can't see when the account were created because
> the feature is
> disabled but it's pretty safe to assume that they
> were created on the
> same day that they were blocked. Note the time
> periods between one
> account being blocked and the next one coming back
> to threaten is
> longer than 24 hours.
>
> These accounts are almost certainly the same person.
> This is someone
> who is familiar with the IP blocker and knows he has
> to wait 24 hours
> before he can create a new account. I still maintain
> that this is
> someone trolling,. Note how they go after Ta bu shi
> da yu rather than
> David or me ( I was the one who deleted the photo)
> Why is that d'ya
> think?
>
> Unfortunately for them, they have revealed thier IP
> address. If they
> come back after the 23rd I suggest we block the IP
> as well as whatever
> the latest sockpuppet is for a long period (a month
> say)
>
> A reverse DNS gives
> 216-55-149-21.dedicated.abac.net.
>
> Theresa

There have already been other attacks.  Somebody with
a User ID of something like Aryan Power attacked him
Friday or Saturday.

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject:
Reputation (was Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and	Chinese Wikipedia again)

body:
Stan Shebs wrote:

> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>> Do you really think I'm /that/ stupid?
>>
> He probably does, actually. Despite repeated hints that it's
> counterproductive, you continue to try to browbeat people into
> doing what you want.
>
> As someone who's lived on the net for some 23 years now, let me
> pass along a bit of advice. You start with a default fund of
> reputation from other netizens. You do good things, like copyedit
> a thousand articles or supply a bit of requested info, your fund
> goes up. You do bad things, like call someone a nasty name in
> public, your fund goes down.
>
> Why does this matter? If your fund of reputation is high, you can
> merely suggest an idea, and people will rush to make it happen.
> If your fund is low, others will dislike your idea, *even if it's
> a good idea*. Unfair, perhaps, but that's how interpersonal
> relationships work, on the net as elsewere.
>
> Some people even tried to let you know when your fund crossed zero
> and headed into negative territory, but you blew right on by without
> slowing down. So, if you want to have any chance at all of having
> any influence on things, I suggest you cool it with all the
> accusations and criticism - I think you do enough worthwhile things
> normally that your reputation will eventually get back to the
> positive side again.

Well put!

What I would add is that another thing that moves someone into negative
territory is continuing "ad nauseam" with a subject.  This "Quenya"
thread seems to keep going on  ... and on ... and on ... and on ... and
on ... with the same cast of characters, and often lengthy posts.  It
gets to the point where I don't even bother to look to see if there are
accusations and criticisms.  My finger on the delete button just gets
very heavy.

Ec


from_name: Amar Singh Katil

subject: [Foundation-l] re-registration of wikimedia foundartion

body: ?Please confirm my list for the above foundation-1 mailing list by e mail askatil at rediffmail.com


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Downloading many articles

body:
I am deeply sorry to go off-topic, and ask a question not
related to sex, images of sex, autofellatio, or why
Wikipedia is not fit for any sort of school or restaurant.

I know two ways to copy of the content of any single
article and save it on my local hard drive.

   On Internet Explorer I can click, "File", "Save as",
   "Web Page - HTML only", and then save the individual
   article.

   I also can go into an article, copy the article,
   paste it into a word processor, and then save it.

I could do either of these techniques for many articles,
but is there an easier way to do this?  I'd like to make a
list of over a hundred articles - or even my entire
Watchlist - and have the content automatically downloaded
and saved to my hard-drive.

Any suggestions and help would be greatly appreciated. If
this helps, I am using Windows XP.

Our current conversation on sex may now continue.  ;-)

Robert (RK)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


body:
Viajero said:
> Hi all,
>
> This list *urgently* needs to adopt daily posting limits.

Well how about if I promise to exercise restraint, and we'll see how it goes?


from_name: Kiss All

subject: [Wikitech-l] performance

body:
> If MediaWiki does not suit your needs compared to other wikis, please
> feel free to use other wikis instead. We aren't going to feel bad, and
> we didn't lose a sale.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

I think it would be better to listen to any complains from any users.
MediaWiki is not perfect by any means. The biggest improvements should
come from the comparision with other wikis.

Again, you can only claim "I am not going to feel bad." not "We".  Who
were "We" here !?

I bet you attitude and words hurted many people and the whole project
now and in a long run. We are going to lose!  You are an important
person currently for this project. The attitude of important persons
really matter.

   So be cautious to your attitude. Please.

I hate to critize people face to face. But I think somebody has to
take that role in addition many others are praising you. Keep in mind
that I am also very thankful for your diligent work for this project.
:-)

Kiss All


from_name: El C

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE:test?

body:
If my spamculations are correct, this will appear directly bellow my
"test?" msg; at least according to this manual. Unless I got the wrong
manual which seems likely as this one  appears to be a coupon for
office supplies - well, it has been of great aid for me either way. I
did find the test group, but it ended up being usenet. ---enough bad
jokes; test end---


from_name: Stacey Greenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] test?

body:
Did you pass?

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:24:50 +0800, El C <el_c at india.com> wrote:
> test.
> --
> India.com free e-mail - www.india.com.
> Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for mail storage, POP3, e-mail forwarding, and ads-free mailboxes!
>
> Powered by Outblaze
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] test?

body:
Oh, I don't need the RE: No, I seem to have failed then. :\

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:09:32 -0500, Stacey Greenstein
<stacey.nj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Did you pass?
>
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:24:50 +0800, El C <el_c at india.com> wrote:
> > test.
> > --
> > India.com free e-mail - www.india.com.
> > Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for mail storage, POP3, e-mail forwarding, and ads-free mailboxes!
> >
> > Powered by Outblaze
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Andrea Forte

subject: [WikiEN-l] Call for participants

body:
Hi all, you may have seen my message on the Village Pump. I'm a PhD
student whose research is on online communities and I'm soliciting
volunteers to do interviews about Wikipedia.

If you aren't interested, ignore me.:-) If you are interested, please
understand that any information you provide in an interview will be
held in complete confidence and no identifiable details about you will
be included when the results of this study are written up for
publication.

If you would like to participate, please <i>read</i> and submit the
form: http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/AY2005/cs6470_spring/researchstudy/webconsent_wikipedia_study2.html
to consent to the study and I or one of my co-investigators will
contact you to set up an interview at a convenient time. For more
information about me and my research, please feel free to visit my
userpage.

Thanks for your time!

Andrea Forte
AKA Andicat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andicat


from_name: geni

subject:
[WikiEN-l] One reason why Wikipedia is not presently
	classroom-safe

body:
> It seems to me that which images are to be deferred would be decided by
> someone other than the reader.  This would probably compromise NPOV.

Why? I am constantly deciding what the reader should see and the
reader should not see.You can argue that "interesting" and "relivant"
and "not meaningless" are POV terms but I am not planning to put the
exact depth of every lock on every canal article I create. I am not
going to shove random information about the ming peroid of china into
an article on the algerian civil conflict and I am going to carry on
speedy deleting "fgfgfgfg" and "whoohoo I edited a page".
--
geni


from_name: Viajero

body:
Hi all,

This list *urgently* needs to adopt daily posting limits. A certain user
(you know who you are) recently posted some THIRTY times in 24 hours to
the list on the topic of "One reason why Wikipedia is not presently
classroom-safe", with some postings only two minutes apart. This is a
great discourtesy to other subscribers to this list. I realize topics
such as explicit photos are contentious and will not be solved without
long discussion, but threads like the above-mentioned where a couple of
users are responsible for like messages in 24 hours make it exceedingly
difficult for the rest of us to follow the discussion. I would like to
know what various people think about these topics but I don't want to
have to scroll through two hundred messages to find out.

Another busy list I subscribe to has a daily posting limit of three
messages per subscriber. Go above that, you get put on moderation
(messages get routed first to the listmaster). WikiEN-L urgently needs
something similar.

V.


from_name: Zoney

body:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:20:38 +1100, David Gerard
<fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Viajero (viajero at quilombo.nl) [050222 23:50]:
>
> > This list *urgently* needs to adopt daily posting limits. A certain user
>
> Any user can go to the list page:
>
>     http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> - and (using the bit at the bottom) set their mail feed to daily digest or
> individual mails at will, and change it back at will.
>
> Using this as a workaround is more likely to give you the result you're
> after (a lack of tons of stuff in your mailbox) in the immediate future.
>
> Besides, we're all suffering wikiwithdrawal.
>
>
> - d.
>
>

Using an email system that groups messages by thread is very helpful.

Personally I use gmail for WikiEN (and another mailing list), a)
because I wanted to test gmail without using personal mail, and b)
because messages are not only grouped in threads, but quotes can be
expanded/collapsed and messages in a thread view can be
expanded/collapsed.

All in all, it's perfectly suited for a high volume mailing list. It
helps that one doesn't have to download mails. Also, one can keep
every email received, no need to delete. The search facility is fast
also. There are filtering options, so in theory you could filter all
emails from an individual or on a topic directly into trash. (You can
manipulate/delete entire threads with little delay also).

I wouldn't use gmail for my main email, but for this, it is SO handy.

Sorry if I sound like a salesman or gmail evangelist - I just
genuinely find it pleasant to use for WikiEN.

Zoney

--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


subject: [WikiEN-l] Downtime

body:
Any estimates on when Wikipedia will be back up?

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
Stirling's "God-king" was not a reference to himself.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:54:08 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> So you feel that you and you alone have the /right/ to deny or approve
> the existance of a new Wikipedia, Mr Newberry?
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:31:54 -0500, Stirling Newberry
> <stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 21, 2005, at 8:27 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> >
> > > My main point is that no matter who gets to decide, it should NOT be
> > > the general community. I personally think it should be the community
> > > that uses that language, but obviously if the board does not like it
> > > they have ultimate veto power.
> > >
> >
> > The God-King drives a Hyundai, I don't believe you drive a Hyundai,
> > therefore I don't believe you are the god-king. Please stop being so
> > stingy with other people's rights.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--

Andrew Lih, Assistant Professor
Journalism and Media Studies Centre
University of Hong Kong
Email: alih at hku.hk | Web: http://jmsc.hku.hk/faculty/alih
AOL IM: fuzheado | ICQ: 231894253
Yahoo Messenger: andrew_lih | MSN Messenger: andrew_lih at msn.com


from_name: Matt Brown

body:
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:47:56 -0800, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the
> colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies
> but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network
> switch to unceremoniously shut down.

That's pretty much nightmare #1 for anyone operating in a colocation
facility.  I know if this kind of thing happened to me, I'd have
management and customers on my back immediately, asking when we were
moving datacenters to someone else ...

Nothing like a real failure to show you how truly redundant (or not)
the systems actually are.  Was it equipment failure or human failure?
Either way, it sounds like your redundant power circuits were routed
through the same circuit breaker cabinet or both got shorted out by
the same issue.  Not good.

Of all MySQL's faults, corruption on ungraceful shutdown is one of the
worst.  I've had similar incidents on Oracle dozens of times and never
had to restore from backups.

-Matt


from_name: Henry H. Tan-Tenn

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Creating broken wikis

body:
Yann Forget ti 2005/2/18 EP 05:55 sia-kong:

> Just to help tracking the problem, there was a button "create the wiki" on the
> "Main Page" of bm.wiktionary.org a few days ago, so someone may have created
> it that way.
>
> Thanks for fixing it.

A broken http://zh-min-nan.wikiquote.org was created similarly (sorry).
  A fix would be most appreciated.


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Spam

body:
Yann Forget wrote:
> It is quite urgent to implement a spamfilter on Wikimedia servers.
>
> I already proposed several times to help set up this.
<snip spam>

Maybe the lists can be restricted to registered users only ?

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org


subject: [WikiEN-l] Downtime

body:
--- Theresa Knott <theresaknott at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's back up now
>
> Theresa

When I try to access my contributions, it still says,
"temporarily disabled during server recovery ".

Since editing now seems to be enabled, when will my
contributions be back?

Although it is still running as slowly as it would if
it were up.

RickK

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Database error when trying to Save

body:
I'm trying to create a new article.  Show preview
works, but when I click on "Save", I get a page which
says "Database error
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Internal error" and a message at the top that says
"Warning: mysql_query(): Unable to save result set in
/usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.4/includes/Database.php
on line 324".

I have tried four times to do a Save and keep getting
this error.

Are people still working on the servers?

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Update logs are still replaying, but we're up to 42 minutes prior to the
> crash on one machine and still going. I don't expect problems.

With two servers fully recovered we've got the wikis up for read-write
access; editing is open. Total time from crash to restoring edit service
was about 24 hours, 10 minutes. Sigh.

Some special pages (including contribs and watchlist) are off for the
moment to reduce server load until we have more machines up. Some things
remain a little wonky.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/3dd2aa65/attachment.pgp


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Update logs are still replaying, but we're up to 42 minutes prior to the
> crash on one machine and still going. I don't expect problems.

With two servers fully recovered we've got the wikis up for read-write
access; editing is open. Total time from crash to restoring edit service
was about 24 hours, 10 minutes. Sigh.

Some special pages (including contribs and watchlist) are off for the
moment to reduce server load until we have more machines up. Some things
remain a little wonky.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/3dd2aa65/attachment-0001.pgp