body:
Thanks Faraaz. They most probably got it off this email list. Wouldn't
be surprised if the puppet is subscribed.

Christiaan

On 13 Apr 2005, at 10:13 pm, Faraaz Damji wrote:

> Yes, a developer can check for all other users that share this IP
> address (sockpuppets).  #mediawiki on freenode usually has a bunch of
> them, and #wikipedia might also have some hanging around.
>
> You should report them to the FTC/FCC (I think it's the FTC, but I'm
> not
> sure).  How did they get your email? Did you email them back after they
> [[Special:Emailuser]]'d you?
>
> If you could trace them back to a user on wikipedia, then it looks like
> you probably caught the actual guy rather than a proxy :D
>
> Blog: http://frazzydee.ca
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCS d? s:- a--- C+++ UL++ P+ L+ E---- W++ N+ o+ K+ w+
> O? M-- V? PS++ PE Y PGP++ t 5-- X+ R tv b++ DI++ D+
> G++ e- h! !r !z
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
> Christiaan Briggs wrote:
>> Recently I have had a deluge of junkmail, and I have a pretty good
>> idea
>> who it is. One of emails (below), from LeadFactory.com, included the
>> IP
>> address of the person who subscribed me.
>>
>> I had a hunch, considering, one, a lot of it is right-wing U.S. and
>> Israeli email (of which related articles I've been editing lately)
>> and,
>> two, it's the first junkmail I've ever received at this address. So I
>> plugged the address into Wikipedia and whatta ya know, a probable sock
>> puppet who has been especially abusive to me recently:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:
>> Contributions&target=155.84.57.253
>>
>> You might also like to check out some of the sock puppet's responses
>> to
>> requests to stop vandalism and 3RR:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:155.84.57.253
>>
>> I also did a geographic trace on the IP and they're from Houston
>> Texas.
>>
>> Can this IP address be permanently banned or something? Is there
>> anyone
>> who can check the address against other usernames?
>>
>> Christiaan
>>
>>>     From:       reply at LeadFactory.com
>>>     Subject:     Welcome to LeadFactory! (1113341886.13.28781)
>>>     Date:     12 April 2005 10:38:06 pm BST
>>>     To:       christiaan at last-straw.net
>>>     Received-Spf:     none (No spf1 record for (phl13.note.com) )
>>> client-ip=207.106.91.43; envelope-from=<lf_sub at phl13.note.com>;
>>>     X-Default-Received-Spf:     pass (Last token {a} (res=PASS))
>>> client-ip=207.106.91.43; envelope-from=<lf_sub at phl13.note.com>;
>>>     Received:     from phl13.note.com (unverified [207.106.91.43])
>>> by  serverlogistics.com (SurgeMail 2.2c9) with ESMTP id 1899996  for
>>> <christiaan at last-straw.net>; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:38:12 -0700 PDT
>>>     Received:     (from lf_sub at localhost) by phl13.note.com
>>> (8.11.6/8.11.6)  id j3CLc6q28834; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:38:06 -0400
>>>     Return-Path:     <lf_sub at phl13.note.com>
>>>     Message-Id:     <200504122138.j3CLc6q28834 at phl13.note.com>
>>>     X-Http-User-Agent:     Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows
>>> NT  5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)
>>>     X-Remote-Host:
>>>     X-Remote-Address:     155.84.57.253
>>>     X-Lb-Comment:     LF Subscription Welcome; complaints to
>>> abuse at LeadFactory.com
>>>     X-Mailer:     robosub from LeadFactory.com (v. 1.02)
>>>     X-Server:     High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com
>>>     X-Rcpt-To:     <christiaan at last-straw.net>
>>>     X-Spamdetect-Info:     This message may be spam see
>>> http://www.smitespam.com for more information
>>>     X-Spamdetect:     ****: 4.578000 Opt-in=0.7,Information on how to
>>> work  at home (2)=0.1,Message talks about earning money=1.5,From:
>>> does
>>> not  include a real name=0.3,SpamUrl=2.0
>>>     X-Spamurl:     leadfactory.com
>>>     X-Ip-Stats:     No info recorded yet
>>>     X-External-Ip:     207.106.91.43
>>>
>>> This email is to notify you that a subscription request
>>> has been received through our LeadFactory system, to the
>>> email publication(s) listed below.
>>>
>>> Each publisher will acknowledge your subscription to their
>>> list separately by email, with their own instructions for
>>> cancelling future messages.
>>>
>>> You have NOT been subscribed to any list belonging to us
>>> (LeadFactory) as a result of this subscription request, and
>>> will thus receive NO future emails from us (LeadFactory).
>>>
>>> If someone else used LeadFactory to subscribe you to the
>>> lists below without your permission, please accept our
>>> apologies and forward a copy of this entire email to
>>> abuse at LeadFactory.com to be unsubscribed.
>>>
>>> =====
>>>
>>> SUBSCRIPTIONS REQUESTED
>>>
>>> Multiple Streams of Income -- Free wealth creation training
>>> newsletter by Robert G. Allen, best selling author of
>>> "Nothing Down" and "Creating Wealth"!
>>>
>>> Six Figure Income With NO RECRUITING -- NOT a money
>>> doubler! This is an ethical, well established company and
>>> has already given out over $79 MILLION in commissions!
>>> Start with as little as $10.
>>>
>>> The Internet Checklist Newsletter -- Internet-Checklist.com
>>> reveals internet marketing tips that will help you start &
>>> improve your internet business. Invest time & money in
>>> yourself.
>>>
>>> e-Course: How To Be A Business Consultant -- TopLine
>>> Business Solutions CEO Martin Howey gives you "Secrets
>>> Revealed: How To Make $100K In 90 Days As A Professional
>>> Business Consultant!"
>>>
>>> PushButtonHealth.com: Niche Marketing News -- Bryan
>>> Winters' highly-acclaimed course, "From Kia to Corvette: My
>>> Secret to Success", helps you start or boost your own
>>> home-based business! No AOL Addresses Please
>>>
>>> Cash In On The Internet Explosion -- Discover how you can
>>> build a massive e-business with lightning speed, regardless
>>> of your experience, by using our cutting edge, automated
>>> system.
>>>
>>> =====
>>>
>>> SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Subscriber: christiaan at last-straw.net
>>> Name: Christiaan Briggs
>>> IP Address: 155.84.57.253
>>> Hostname:
>>> Date/Time: Tue Apr 12 21:38:06 GMT 2005
>>>
>>>
>>> === Subscriptions powered by LeadFactory...
>>>          http://LeadFactory.com/leads/?initsub
>>>
>>>    [LeadFactory opt-in email is sent by note.com LLC
>>>    P.O. Box 234, Jenkintown, PA 19046-0234 (USA).
>>>    Complaints go to abuse at LeadFactory.com or +1 (215) 576 6800.
>>>    Please mention subscriber id # 1113341886.13.28781 .]
>>>
>>> ===
>>> Turn Unused or Overlooked Space on Your Website Into Profits!
>>>    http://LeadFactory.com/pub/?lf_welc
>>> ===
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Kate Winslet Exposure

body:
But there's still the difference of "expectation". You can't go to an
article about private parts and expect to see no pictures.

The Titanic article is a whole different story, though I think some
people are really overreacting about this. What about the famous "King
of the World"-scene. Shouldn't that make for a nice image to add to
the article?

--Mgm

On 4/13/05, Tom Haws <hawstom at sprintmail.com> wrote:
> Zoney wrote:
>
> >Why cause offence even to a minority when it
> >is trivial to avoid doing so without comprimising the article (or
> >perhaps even improving it)?
> >
> >
> This reminds me of nagging concerns I have had about many of the images
> I have seen used to illustrate human private parts.
>
> First, in too many cases they are, quite simply put, ugly or gross
> images.  I realize that we specialize in harnessing dilettantism, and
> that means we often get whatever can be produced off-the-cuff in a
> moment or two, but we are not winning any awards in the quality
> department with ugly snapshots of private parts. See [[Mull of Kintyre
> rule]].  Have we no airbrushes or line-drawing artists "on staff"?
>
> Second, also related to our dilettantism, many of the images fail to
> illustrate well the subject.  At [[Nipple]] there was a profile of a
> female human nipple, but there was no cross-sectional line drawing.  We
> came off looking like, well, a dilettantism-driven and troll-infested Wiki.
>
> Is an ugly or gross and controversial image better than no image at all?
>
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Zoney said:
>
> Really, one does have to ask though - why has this screen capture in
> particular been chosen to adore [[Titanic (1997 movie)]]?

See the plot outline in the article--or even better, just get the DVD and
watch it again.  The significance of that particular scene will become
clear.  For some reason the director chose to have Ms Winslet's character
undraped at that point, which is why she is undraped in the screenshot.

>
> In fairness, would a screengrab of the actual ship from the movie not
> be more appropriate? (Then again, considering the plot... :-)

The  article already has the movie poster which features the bow of the
ship, but it could probably do with a few more stills, including the
spectacular sinking.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [wikiRU-A] wikisource: деление на поддомены (New vote on domain names)

body:
A new vote on whether to split Wikisource into separate domains began
yesterday. Please see the following links for the voting page and
previous discussion.

?????????? ??????? wikisource ?? ????????? ? ???????????:

http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:New_vote_on_language_subdomains
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:New_discussion_on_language_subdomains
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium/Language_domain_proposal
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium/Language_domain_requests

Angela (forwarded from the wikiRU-A list)


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Rick said:
>
>> I take that very seriously.  It's an extremely
>> damaging accusation, and if
>> Kevin has evidence to support it he should make it
>> public.  If he doesn't
>> well we'll know he's just hand-waving, indulging in
>> attempt to denigrate
>> those who have uploaded images involving nudity.
>
> And by implication, those of us who oppose turning
> Wikipedia into a Kiddiwiki.

Or the Wiki you can use from work even if you don't know how to operate
your browser.>
> RickK
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] Chinese Wikinews: board action required

body:
There has now been a vote, organized by Formulax, among Chinese language
Wikimedians on whether there should be a Chinese Wikinews.

The results are at:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E6%8A%95%E7%A5%A8/%E7%BB%B4%E5%9F%BA%E6%96%B0%E9%97%BB

In an amusing demonstration of the problems of voting, there were 13
votes opposed to the project, 13 votes in support, and 1 vote with
support only if compromises could be made about NPOV.

There was a larger vote earlier on whether this should be up to the
global community to decide, or to the Chinese community. That vote was
inconclusive, too, with opinions evenly split (50% want it to be a
global decision, 50% want it to be a local decision) and very strong
expressions of emotions on both sides.

We can continue voting until we get a nice result, but I think it would
be best now for the board to make a decision about this.

My recommendation is a compromise: the project should go ahead under
somewhat more rigid conditions (at least 10 support votes with at least
6 of them from Wikimedia regulars PLUS the process at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_language_pre-launch ). We can deal
with problems of censorship as they arise.

Erik


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

body:
On Apr 13, 2005, at 6:08 PM, Faraaz Damji wrote:

> Anthere wrote:
>> I looked at their review process... I do not see how it could work...
>> Eh, it reminds me of Nupedia !
>
> I agree, but it's different from Nupedia in that they've got tons more
> resources than Nupedia did.  Still, I don't see encarta becoming the
> largest encyclopedia in the world, since there is little reason for
> people to contribute.  It doesn't even seem like they give attribution
> (do they? If so, where?).
>
> I don't think that there will be dedicated editors like there are on
> Wikipedia, and like there were on Nupedia, since encarta is completely
> for profit- they're in it for the money and NOT for providing free
> access to "the sum of all human knowledge." There might be some casual
> editors who, upon finding something that wasn't previously there, will
> submit it (eg. if somebody died).  There is little reason I see for
> anybody going on the site for the purpose of improving it.
>
> While it will help keep the encyclopedia more up-to-date, I doubt it
> will ever become nearly as popular as Wikipedia is.
>
> Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

Wikipedia is an increasingly hostile environment. Don't dismiss
alternate venues because the wave is cresting on wikipedia.


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Non-spam domain found in spam list

body:
Timwi wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> one of my edits was blocked for being "spam" because it contained a
> URL that was in the spam list. However,
>
> * I didn't add that URL (it was already in the article under "External
>   Links")
> * The URL was legitimate and relevant to the article
>
> Please can someone remove that domain from the spamlist? The domain in
> question is http://www.niimm.spb.su/ and I had to remove it to have my
> edit go through:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grigori_Perelman&diff=0&oldid=12254012
>
>
> Thanks,
> Timwi
>
I just ran that domain through a spam database lookup
(http://dnsstuff.com/tools/ip4r.ch?ip=195.19.228.206) and got a hit:

http://ordb.org/lookup/?host=195.19.228.206

Their mail server is an open relay. Not sure how being in a mail spam
database makes it a site for Wikispam, but anyway...

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Different alphabets for the same language

body:
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 17:38, Lars Aronsson wrote:
> Clearly, the Serbian Wikipedia cannot be the only website in
> Serbian.  There must reasonably be other Serbian websites which
> have already addressed and solved this problem, and from where you
> can get ideas for a practical and working solution.

Some time ago, I wrote a text about this topic, so I believe that I am the
right person to answer to this.

There are several ways of having bi-alphabetic web site. If your web site is
static (that is, serving HTML files, no scripting), you have to create entire
tree of your site in both alphabets. There are tools which can help with
this, but there is nothing which you can just point to a Cyrillic web site
and which can output you entire Latin web site, so some work has to be done
manually. If you have a static site, but also the ability of scripting, a
simple solution could be a script which would upon a request load a static
page, transliterate it and serve it; but I've never seen this actually
implemented. If your web site is dynamic, but done in "raw" PHP or some other
language (you again have mostly HTML but use PHP to insert headers, footers
and the like), you can add a small script on top which, if requested, would
buffer entire page, transliterate it and output it; there is one excellent
tool for this though it has somewhat strange licensing, and of course it is
not hard to code such a thing from scratch. Finally, if your site is fully
dynamic, done over a CMS for example, you either have to use transliteration
built in the software (I don't know of any software having such a thing), or
you can use solution similar to one I mentioned, have a script which would
load a finished page, transliterate it and serve it (I believe I have seen
this a few times). Regardless of which way you use, a thing sometimes
overlooked are buttons and other images with inscriptions on them; they have
to exist in both variants too (and I wonder is this problem addressed in some
way on Chinese Wikipedia?).

However, and what is important for this discussion, everyone who has such a
site has primary variant in Cyrillic and makes Latin variant from it; I think
that only Radio Television of Serbia transliterates from Latin to Cyrillic,
but as one might guess it's doesn't turn out very nice.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Sean Barrett wrote:

>For me, the largest part of the problem with the Kate Winslet nude is
>that it renders all of Wikipedia non-work-safe.  You can defend the
>autofellatio picture by asking "why are you looking at an article
>about sucking your own dick while at work?" but if any article that
>mentions any person can have a nude picture of that person, I don't
>dare use Wikipedia anywhere but in the privacy of my own bedroom, with
>the shades drawn.
>
>
>
Er, the Kate Winslet nude is only marginally "nude". If it's such a
problem, use a tabbed browser or disable images.

>Right now, anyone at my place of work who happens to look up Kate
>Winslet will be disciplined.  If he then inadvertently trips over
>another Wikinude, he'll be fired.  In other words, Wikipedia is now
>unusable in a buttoned-down professional environment.
>
>
>
Why are you looking up Kate Winslet at work anyway? Why aren't you working?

>Some of you, of course, think that makes Wikipedia a better thing.
>
>
Better go around that bridge when the Billy Goats Gruff get to it.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject: [Wikitech-l] Language conversion

body:
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 15:47, Milos Rancic wrote:
> "And now, something completely different!" :) Serbian language has two
> standard alphabets and two standard variants: "ekavian" (standard in
> Serbia) and "iyekavian" (standard in Republic of Srpska and
> Montenegro). Is it possible to make some markup extension at the
> character (and group of characters) level?
>
> Serbian word for "milk" is in ekavian "mleko", but in iyekavian it is
> "mlijeko". So, with some markup can bi written like "ml{e|ije}ko";
> "bred" is "hleb" in ekavian and "hljeb" in iyekavian, so it should be
> written like "h{l|lj}eb". No one should be forced to use markup, but
> there are some people at sr: who would do that.

I propose reintroduction of Yat :)


body:
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 14:50, Milos Rancic wrote:
> > I didn't say that it wasn't needed for Serbian, just that I didn't
> > knew if sr: users needed it (which is different of wanted; yes it would
> > be a welcome feature, but it isn't absolutely needed, as anyone litterate
> > in Serbian language can read cyrillic; the situation is different for
> > other languages where different communities use different alphabets
> > and may not be able to read the other).
> >
> > ...
> >
> > (btw, I wasn't aware that the proportion of latin alphabet users
> > was so high; yes I knew that anyone could write it, and probably used
> > it in thinks like sms or email, but thought than when it came to writting
> > with a pen on a paper most people used cyrillic)
>
> Thank you. Now, I understand consequences of Nikola's xenophobic
> propaganda. He made equal SMS and email communication with poetry and
> scientific papers which is written (and which is writing) in Latin
> alphabet.

The first time that words "poetry" or "scientific papers" are mentioned in
this thread, is this email of yours to which I am replying to. I have never
mentioned either. I believe that it is easy to see who's conducting
propaganda here.

And, please, in a previous email you said to me that "your political reasons
for obstruction of introduction of Latin alphabet into Serbian Wikipedia are
clear". As you are the founder of anarchopedia, is it possible that you might
have some political reasons too?

> So, the question is do we need it. The answer is: No, we can use ASCII
> characterset and English language for communication and we don't need
> even Serbian Wikipedia.

No, we can not. Majority of people in Serbia doesn't know a word of English
and so needs Serbian Wikipedia.

> Look, I am sick of two confronted main stream (sick) factions: One is
> xenophobic and rejects all of Western influences into Serbian culture
> and another is exponent of Western cultural imperialism and rejects
> all of traditional parts of Serbian culture. The first doesn't want to
> see Latin alphabet see Serbian alphabet, the another doesn't want to
> see Cyrillic alphabet as Serbian alphabet. Xenophobic faction is
> better organized, but exponents of Western cultural imperialism have
> very strong "unofficial" centers. In the substance, both of factions

I see that you see the world in black and white. Well, the world isn't black
and white, there are shades of gray inbetween, and I have never seen an
organisation which "rejects all of Western influences into Serbian culture"
nor one which "rejects all of traditional parts of Serbian culture" Of
organisations concerned with scripts, I also don't know of any who aims to
eradicate either alphabet completely. Oh, and their organisation is the
opposite of what you said - pro-Western organisations are much better
organised.

> We have deeply divided society. In this situation we are talking about
> introduction of Latin alphabet. A few years ago analogue situation was
> with introduction of Cyrillic alphabet into KDE and Microsoft
> products.

On the other hand, I might add that CEO of Microsoft in Belgrade was replaced
because he tried to localize Windows in Latin alphabet. So, people, be
careful! ;)

> And, during 1990s, opposition to Cyrillic inside of computer circles
> was very very strong. Again, anyone who was working on Cyrillic was
> characterized as "pro-Milosevic", as "nazi" (with, of course, other

This is simply a lie.

> transliteration, for sure. But, if we have possibility to use two
> alphabets (we are not working on ASCII or 8-bit terminals anymore,
> Unicode became standard), we should use it.

No, we should not. Why should we?

> It is the matter of culture, not the matter of understanding. Take
> care about: a lot of people don't want (or don't like, or don't know)
> to use Cyrillic alphabet at computers. And some of them want to become
> contributors to Serbian Wikipedia, but they don't want (don't like,
> don't know) to do that in Cyrillic.
>
> With only Cyrillic alphabet half of Serbs are excommunicated from
> Serbian Wikipedia. Nikola wants that. I am wandering if others want
> that?

No, neither is true.

A lot of people don't know how to use Cyrillic alphabet on computers. However,
these same people are those who don't know how to use Latin alphabet on
computers. To explain: computers usually come with English keyboards
preinstalled. People who don't know how to install another keyboard use it to
write Serbian, and they do so in "naked" Latin: without necessary diacritics.
I agree that there is a number of such people, and that they currently can't
participate on Wikipedia except in a very limited way, however naked Latin is
absolutely impossible to transliterate to either Cyrillic or proper Latin so
they can't participate either way. However, the very moment when someone
learns how to install a keyboard, he or she can use equal procedure to
install either Cyrillic or Latin keyboard, or both. Wikipedia is in UTF-8
either way, so there are no problems with encoding or other problems.

I have said, and will say again: if this would be introduced it would be
tyranny of the minority. If  a minority needs something, and majority can give
it to them, but don't want it, that is tyranny of the majority. But if there
is a minority who wishes something and a majority who does not wish that
thing, then having it would be a tyranny of the minority.


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 04:29:30PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Chad Perrin said:
> > While I'm inclined to agree with your sentiment on this matter, at
> > least moreso than the converse, it seems blindingly obvious to me that
> > the "accusation" in question was meant as an expression of a perceived
> > trend, from one person's perspective.
>
>
> I may have misread it, but Kevin's wording was as follows:
>
>
> "I've come to the realization that people are searching out nude pictures
> to put in the 'pedia. They are looking to stir up trouble, mostly to make
> a point."
>
> That seems to be a pretty specific accusation, aimed at a subset of those
> who upload images, specifically images involving nudity, accusing them of
> doing so with the intention of breaking Wikipedia policy.
>
> I take that very seriously.  It's an extremely damaging accusation, and if
> Kevin has evidence to support it he should make it public.  If he doesn't
> well we'll know he's just hand-waving, indulging in attempt to denigrate
> those who have uploaded images involving nudity.

Whatever happened to an assumption of good faith?  You're assuming bad
faith on the part of KR here.  I, for one, didn't interpret his comments
to in any way involve an intended "denigration" of any individuals in
particular, and only to make a generalized statement about behavioral
trends that seems to fit with the sort of irresponsible behavior that is
all too often endemic to the Internet as a whole.  How about, before
requiring he prove his "accusations", you prove that he intended any
accusation?

Nitpicking asinine little details can be a two-way street.  I'm almost
embarrassed to be perceived as agreeing with you on the subject of
whether or not there's anything to worry about in the posting of the
Winslet image because of your tactics in trying to make a point.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Wouter Steenbeek

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Rights

body:
This has something to do with an unlucky recent event on the Dutch
Wikipedia, Mark. Ask Andr? himself if you'd like to know more about it. But
I think it is solved now, more or less.

Wouter

>From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>,wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Rights
>Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:13:41 -0700
>
>I don't see why this is nessecary. Other people ask for the same sort of
>thing.
>
>But unless you have some sort of psychological disorder where you
>can't control your actions at all, you should be able to just not
>block and unblock people without a technical measure.
>
>Mark
>
>On 4/13/05, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Could my right to block and deblock people be removed without removing
> > the possibility to use sysop rollback?
> >
> > Andre Engels
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Webmessenger: altijd en overal beschikbaar http://webmessenger.msn.com/


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VfD relisting time

body:
David 'DJ' Hedley (spyders at btinternet.com) [050414 01:50]:

> If there is no consensus then a quick re-listing is fine. Of course theres
> re-listing vandalism, but that is dealt with.

The default on VFD is to keep unless there's a consensus to delete.

Relisting seventeen hours later is obvious gaming of the system. That the
article is a crappy semi-autobiography doesn't change that.

- d.


from_name: Sj

subject: [WikiEN-l] Suggestions for a work-safe encyclopedia

body:
Perhaps we can identify some reasonable notion of "work-safeness" and
work to make the user experience work-safe for all of our readers.
Our primary goal should be to make the encyclopedia a useful and
reliable resource, for as many people as possible, in as many
environments as possible.  This includes making it reliably safe to
let one's children use the encyclopedia, to refer to articles for
illustration in the middle of a discussion or presentation, regardless
of audience, to browse the encyclopedia at work.

I am not sure how to address the first case above - providing a site
that parents would feel comfortable letting their 6-year-old browse.
But I think we can deal with the last two scenarios pretty well
without a great deal of work.

At each step along the way, we can assume that the reader is '''doing
his or her best''' to avoid looking up undesired pages or content.
Editors should avoid surprising users by showing them content they did
not expect, and do not want, to see on a particular subject.  For
instance, we have {{spoiler}} messages.  We should have the same kinds
of messages for potentially offensive content [somehow I thought we
did by now, but it seems this is not so.]

I've added a few templates ('obscenity', 'graphicviolence', and
'nonworksafe') to the end of  the General templates page; please see
whether the text is appropriate, and add them to articles where
needed.     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_messages/General

I think it is fair to assume that readers are doing all they can /not/
to come across content that they or their employers find
inappropriate.  It is also polite to warn readers when they are about
to be shocked.

1.  If the title of the article does *not* make it clear that it is
not worksafe, or about violent or obscene or nude subjects; or
2.  If the content of one section, despite its relevance to the
article as a whole, is unusually graphic, or potentially
offensive/startling;

then a spoiler-type warning is probably appropriate.

On 4/13/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> Sean Barrett said:
> > For me, the largest part of the problem with the Kate Winslet nude is
> > that it renders all of Wikipedia non-work-safe.
>
> What does "work-safe" mean in this context?  If it's only the pictures,
> why do you browse wikipedia with image downloads turned on?

Images are a significant portion of the encyclopedia.  No-one should
have to turn images off  simple because of a few poorly-announced and
surprisingly-placed "non-work-safe" images.

--
+sj+


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

subject: [Wikitech-l] Language conversion

body:
Kaixo!

(I lost the thread, so I'm replying here)

On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 10:55:14PM +0200, Milos Rancic wrote:

> > While I recognize that there are long established traditions favouring
> > the two script approach to Serbian, I think that the ekavian/iyekavian
> > distinction is going too far.  It makes the idea of a single Serbian

is that difference only with the letter "e"?
If yes, why can't it be decided that some people pronounce it
as "je" (like they do in Russian, they just write "?" and not "??")
and some other people pronounce it as "e", and keep a single way of writting?

or the other way around, always write the "j", but some people not
pronounce it.

having two different writting systems just for that (which means four
different writting systemns in total) seems unjustified;

--

Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050414/da2210ec/attachment.pgp>


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikinews-l] TheWorldForum.org adds Wikinews
	logo

body:
On 4/13/05, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> While the current placement doesn't qualify, I don't see why they need
> "authorization" to use the logo to link to Wikipedia.  That's a clearly
> factual use of the logo covered by fair use, and in fact we do the same
> thing with other companies' logos in thousands of Wikipedia articles.

I would agree with this in terms of their use of the logo, since many
other sites, including answers.com (which Jimbo has apparently
approved) use the logo on pages where they use Wikipedia content. It
is only the wording on TheWorldForum.org which makes the relationship
unclear.

A draft trademark and logo policy
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Logo_and_trademark_policy> is under
discussion on the legal mailing list. It currently states:
"You may use the names and logos of Wikimedia projects to refer to us,
link to us, credit us, encourage donations, talk about us, label news
stories about us and so on. We have particular banners for some of
these purposes."

In view of this, I think that Erik was justified in telling The World
Forum that they could use the logo, since that use alone is in
accordance with the policy. He hasn't approved the part about them
claiming to be "in association with Wikinews" and will hopefully be
able to ask them to remove this part. If sites make clear what the
relationship to Wikimedia is, then I believe this sort of use can be
encouraged, which is what the banners and buttons page
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Banners_and_buttons>) has
been doing for years.

Angela.


subject: [Foundation-l] TheWorldForum.org adds Wikinews logo

body:
Thanks, Angela.

On my request, Drog has completely removed the logo box. I can suggest
the following to him:

1) to restore the logo box in a location where there is no risk that it
looks like Wikinews is an advertiser on theworldforum.org,

2) to change the text "In Association With" to something else, like:
	- "Using content from:"
	- "Some content provided by:"
	- "Some stories provided by:"
More suggestions would be appreciated.

In the long term, I think having a standard logo *with* a text like this
would be useful for all Wikimedia projects -- then people can use e.g. a
"Powered by Wikipedia" logo on a CD or printout without there being a
misconception that it is a Wikimedia-approved endeavor. (Note that
"Powered by" has the problem that it is frequently used for software.)

I also think there *should* be a process for establishing real
partnerships that can be labeled as such, though I'm not sure whether
TWF is a candidate for that or not (they're not explicitly free content).

In any case, I won't do anything more on this matter until Jimmy states
his point of view.

All best,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Rights

body:
On 4/13/05, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could my right to block and deblock people be removed without removing
> the possibility to use sysop rollback?

Not in the current version of MediaWiki, but you can duplicate the
behaviour of the sysop rollback by adding something like
http://wikicities.com/wiki/User:Eloquence/monobook.js in your
monobook.js page.

See http://sam.zoy.org/wikipedia/ for the original script and
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29/Archive&oldid=12125185#God_mode_monobook.js
for discussion of this.

Angela.


from_name: Wikipedia Romania

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Conflict between two Wikipedias

body:
Hi, I have just joined this mailing list so excuse me
if I'm posting in the wrong place by not "continuing"
the thread about the disputes regarding the Romanian
and Moldovan Wikipedias.

I think, as Mark (Node) highlighted, people are
arguing two separate issues here which should not be
combined. One is whether Moldovan or Romanian is the
same language, the other is over what to use mo.wiki
for. Now the first issue could be argued for forever,
and that's not really the focus of the discussion.

The actual dispute is due to what to use mo.wiki for.
I think the fundamental idea lies in this: Mark wants
to use mo.wiki for Cyrillic only, with an explanation
redirecting people to Latin content on the Main Page.
I think the logic behind this is that since we already
have mo.wiki, and it's no use putting up Latin content
because it would be nearly identical to the ro.wiki
content, we should use mo.wiki for Cyrillic. I believe
that this is a practical reason, and I would agree
that this is the "easiest" solution because it would
require simply maintaining the status quo.

My proposal has been that we actually make the mo.wiki
a disambiguation Wikipedia, sort of like the
Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, not in the sense that
theMoldovan issue is similar to Serbo-Croatian issue,
but just technically. There would be two columns
there, one redirecting users to a Moldovan Cyrillic
subdomain the other to ro.wiki. Now, the subdomain
should be mo-cyr not ro-cyr simply because out of the
people who write Moldovan-Romanian in Cyrillic, most
of them will say they speak Moldovan, and nearly all
of them live in Moldova. So it's only correct to call
that language Moldovan and set up the subdomain. The
reason why I think my proposal would work best is
because mo.wiki cannote be Cyrillic-only, even with a
Latin script redirect, simply because Cyrillic is the
minority script. We should provide content for that
minority, but not as if they were the majority. Those
who want Moldovan in Latin script, which is the
majority of speakers, even who say they speak Moldovan
not Romanian, can go to ro.wiki. If there is actually
demand, then perhaps we could form a Moldovan
Wikipedia  in Latin script, even though practically
that would be a tad pointless due to the
near-identicality of Ro-Latin and Mo-Latin.

Just to clear something up here about language
separation - I believe that Romanian and Moldovan are
not separate languages lingusitically. However, I do
believe that we can regard them as separate languages
politically. The definition of a language is not only
scientific, or purely linguistic, but rather has a
human/political element to it. Because the Moldovan
government constitutionally recognises "Moldovan" as
their language, then Wikipedia should recognise the
existence of the

So when Mark said, "it should be noted that
Ronline believes - at least it would seem he does -
that Romanian and Moldovan are truly separate
languages", he was half-right. I mean, I don't believe
they're separate languages, but I'm not saying that we
shouldn't regard them as such. Basically, I'm not
going to argue any side in that issue of whether ro
and mo are separate because that's not really the key
to the so-called conflict.

Now, about meddling into the affairs of other
Wikipedias. Mark made a very valid point about
Romanian users involving themselves in Moldovan
affairs. What I'd like to point out is that our
involvement in the Moldovan issue is not so much in
our role as ro.wiki contributors but rather as members
of the broader Wikimedia community. We're involving
ourselves because we're close to Moldova, our language
is the same, or at least very similar, and the
Romanian wiki communities and Moldovan communities
have a considerable degree of overlap. It's true
though that I haven't visited Moldova and that perhaps
we're not all that knowledgeable on Moldovan affairs,
but in any case we're much closer to them and
therefore know a lot more about them than probably any
other nation in the world (don't want to sound
arrogant here, but Moldova's "closest" country in
Romania, not politically but culturally,
linguistically, etc).

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


body:
The previous message was by me, Ronline. Sorry, I
didn't realise that at the mailing list the message is
posted by your e-mail name rather than the name
specified when you joined the list.

--Ronline

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On 4/13/05, Tom Haws <hawstom at sprintmail.com> wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
> >The community HAS resolved this non-problem.  It has
> >decided, by consensus, that there is nothing wrong
> >with having images like this.

I am not sure what consensus(es) you are thinking of, but this
statement should be qualified.

There *is* something wrong, for instance, with including the most
prurient images available of every person who has an article in
Wikipedia, even though such images do add some small bit of
information to the article.

There *is* something wrong with including the most prurient screencap
from every movie that has an article in Wikipedia, in its description.
 Whenever you have to choose a limited number of words or images to
describe something, your choice should be made carefully.

There *is* something wrong with not caring about whether readers will
be surprised or apalled by what they find when they visit an article
of interest.  We should all focus on being polite, both to one another
and to our millions of readers who we will never meet, in addition to
being advocates of free knowledge.  Whether or not to display the
naked body of a beautiful woman -- something which is both unexpected
and taboo for many, even if not for you or for me -- in the middle of
a page which is neither about nudity or about the beauty of women, is
a matter of politeness.

We should be trying to inform readers, and to answer questions that
they have, not trying to change their values, nor to offend them in
the pursuit of some higher societal norm.

> I would like to suggest from my own experience a possible factor that
> tends to consistently skew debates on these subjects.  Some of you may
> be surprised, but most of you will sympathize with the idea that I find
> the mere subject line of the current thread to be embarrassing and
> discouraging to my participation.  I am very hesitant to visit, even for
> the noblest reasons, some of the arenas where these debates have run
> (autofel..., clit...).  I am a father, a brother, a husband, a church elder...

Tom, thank you for bringing that up.  I am sensitive to this point of
view, having grown up in a community where cursing or discussing
genitalia was just not done, even by adults in the privacy of their
own homes.  That may still be true in many parts of the United States,
but it seems to be false in the larger cities.  And I would venture
that most people on this list would not have imagined that such
hesitancy even exists.   ("What?  You mean there are people who
hesitate to read or write about sex or sexuality?  That's crazy.")

I know the current discussion is largely about images, but it is worth
bearing in mind that for many people, the use of certain profane or
sexual words in an apparently unrelated paragraph can be shocking and
offensive.

--
+sj+


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On 4/14/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> Sj said:
> > On 4/13/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.
> >
> > Tony, Wittgenstein would be embarrassed to see you using that quote in
> > this context.
>
> I don't think so.  A man who can't even bring himself to type the word
> clitorisis truly creating for himself a great gulf of communication.

There is nothing shameful about not wanting to type out, or utter,
words that one finds offensive.  People who feel this way are (in
fact) particularly important to include in a discussion about
propriety and obscenity.

--
+sj+


from_name: Wikipedia Romania (Ronline)

body:
In reply to Sj:

"If we're going to have an mo: encyclopedia (and it's
not at all
obvious to me that this is the right solution), then
it had better
allow the inclusion of text in the official Moldovan
alphabet."

Well, that's exactly what I've been arguing for. The
Moldovan Wikipedia cannot be Cyrillic-only, even if
there is a notice redirecting Latin-script users to
ro.wiki.

"But should WP really have a "Moldovan" Wikipedia?"

Personally, I wouldn't really mind if the Moldovan
Wikipedia would just continue to redirect to the
Romanian Wikipedia. However, the issue of Cyrillic
content still remains. There are clearly contributors
who want to provide content in Moldovan Cyrillic.
Therefore, we need to facilitate that. Or we cannot.
We can simply say that we won't accept Cyrillic
content, just how we won't accept Romanian written
without diacritics even though 75% of the online
Romanian users doesn't use them, or just how we don't
accept Latin script in the Russian Wikipedia. However,
because 10% of the Moldovan language speakers use
Cyrillic script, I think we should facilitate content
in that script. The best way to do that would be to
set up a new subdomain at mo-cyr.wikipedia.org.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Suggestions for a work-safe encyclopedia

body:
Sj said:
> Perhaps we can identify some reasonable notion of "work-safeness"

Let me be clear that this is not limited to images, or to nudity
(hemi-semi or otherwise).

An all-text page about the last decade of FCUK ads from the French
Connection, which included a 600px version of their text FCUK logo,
would also not be work-safe.

As we start to improve the inclusion of sound and video, both linked
and streaming,  we will have to find ways to warn people of all manner
of media that are not work-safe; pages which will automatically play
loud sounds (the sound of a car crash as you open [[auto accident]],
perhaps?) would fall into the same category.

--
+sj+


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: foundation-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 12

body:
On 4/13/05, Elisabeth Bauer <elian at djini.de> wrote:
> > If there's interest I can write more about the 4 speeches.
>
> Yes, please do so!

Here's another vote in favor.   Give us enough detail write a good
[[Pixelache 2005]] article about it... maybe a wikinews item as well.

SJ


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Expanding CheckUser permissions

body:
Puddl Duk (puddlduk at gmail.com) [050414 03:18]:
> On 4/12/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:

> > > Users should be notified when CheckUser is run on them (something like
> > > a message notice, that only they can see).   Waerth noted that this
>
> > You're writing the code to do this, then?

> No, I'm not. You've a suggestion for user notification that doesn't
> require code?

Email isn't reliable, in that a lot of people don't have it set up. And the
"Email this user" form doesn't tell you if the message was sent or silently
vanished.

> > > Finally, notifying a registered user when their identity is checked is
> > > just a decent thing to do.

> > There is that. OTOH, when I was investigating the socks of the 'Baku Ibne'
> > troll, I came across use of the same IPs by good users and checked their
> > IPs as well. Now, should we be revealing too much information to them about
> > an ongoing investigation?
> > And also: any website will look through the logs in detail if they suspect
> > abuse. The devs do this *all the time already*. And they *do not* notify
> > anyone in particular. The key to this feature is not doing anything that
> > isn't done already, it's giving access to a small subset of it to people
> > who aren't actually Wikimedia system administrators, mostly so the system
> > administrators can get on with running the site.

> Sure, dev's do this *all the time already*, but were talking about
> expanding a new feature to non-devs. There should be transperency and
> accountability to check possible abuse.

Something may well be a good idea. The ones I've looked at have been arbcom
cases in progress or tracking lack of compliance; these get a note on the
Arb Com 'dev assistance requested' page and/or an email to the arbcom
mailing list, which Jimbo is on (and reads).

These notes need to go on [[m:CheckUser]]!

- d.


from_name: Delirium

body:
geni wrote:

>>As we start to improve the inclusion of sound and video, both linked
>>and streaming,  we will have to find ways to warn people of all manner
>>of media that are not work-safe; pages which will automatically play
>>loud sounds (the sound of a car crash as you open [[auto accident]],
>>perhaps?) would fall into the same category.
>>
>>
>
>Pages that automaticaly play sounds are a really bad idea. Think of
>the poor kids in africa on dialup.
>
>
Even many of us on broadband are likely to find this unappealing.
Automatically playing embedded sounds in a page ranks up there with
automatically opening popup windows on my list of internet annoyances...

-Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Ray Saintonge (saintonge at telus.net) [050414 05:39]:

> What is most disturbing about some others at my end of the spectrum is
> that their motivation with such images is more rooted in trying to prove
> a point than in providing relevant illustrations for an article.  The
> movie was "Titanic",  not "Tit-anic".  It would be nice if the people
> who put up these pictures were as mature as their content, and if they
> stopped encouraging arguments between the offended and the offensive.

As Geni's summary of the user's edits showed (to me, anyway), the user who
contributed said picture was almost certainly engaging in that popular
Internet sport known as "trolling," and, as such, isn't on the side of
anyone here.

Solution: take it out of the article. If there's an uproar demanding it be
reinstated, a discussion on the talk page probably ending in a poll is the
likely result. Problem solved.

- d.


body:
On 4/14/05, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> geni wrote:
>
> >>As we start to improve the inclusion of sound and video, both linked
> >>and streaming,  we will have to find ways to warn people of all manner
> >>of media that are not work-safe; pages which will automatically play
> >>loud sounds (the sound of a car crash as you open [[auto accident]],
> >>perhaps?) would fall into the same category.
>
> Even many of us on broadband are likely to find this unappealing.
> Automatically playing embedded sounds in a page ranks up there with
> automatically opening popup windows on my list of internet annoyances...

Oh, you must be one of those people can't operate a web browser...


body:
If we're going to have an mo: encyclopedia (and it's not at all
obvious to me that this is the right solution), then it had better
allow the inclusion of text in the official Moldovan alphabet.

Elaborate concerns re: 'duplication of effort' may be premature,
considering how little time has been put into mo: and its 12 stubs.
But should WP really have a "Moldovan" Wikipedia?

Even in the Wikipedia subculture of language preservation (and
resuscitation), mo: is an anomaly.  The Wikipedia article on the
subject says it all:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language
We may not wish Wikipedia to become a battleground for this kind of
political battle.

--
+sj+


from_name: Dori

subject: [Wikitech-l] Lucene search

body:
On 4/14/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:

> The choice of initial languages is driven by availability; English,
> German, and Russian word-stem normalizers are included in the main
> Lucene package and I wrote a quickie Esperanto one as a test since I was
> familiar with the language. There are a number of other analyzers
> available in contribs packages which I'll be setting up over the next
> couple days, as well as indexing the rest of the wikis on the supported
> languages.

How hard would it be to come up with these word-stem normalizers for other
languages (i.e. did you base Esperanto off of another similar language or
did you come up with it yourself relatively easily)? Is there a good
description somewhere on how to come up with them?

Dori


from_name: Sean Barrett

body:
> > Perhaps we can identify some reasonable notion of "work-safeness"
>
> No.  It's a dumb term only used by people who can't operate a web browser.

Wow, that's an amazingly helpful comment, Tony.  I'm so glad you're
here; you're such a valuable contributor to this project.

--
 Sean Barrett     | Life is complex -- you know,
 sean at epoptic.com | part real and part imaginary.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Titanic, illustrated

body:
> >I haven't seen it yet and now you've spoiled the ending!
> >
> >
> >
> It's about the Titanic. It sinks.
>
> AFAIK, the movie is not about the Titanic sinking, it's about the
> aforementioned (hemi-demi-semi)nude Kate Winslet.
>
> --
> Alphax

The movie is less about the Titanic's ill-fated voyage than about the
rich man's fiancee who falls for a poor artist. It's a typical "love
triangle" story. And the signature song is about the eternal, enduring
love between the girl and poor Jack who sacrifices his life so that she
can "go on" with hers.

The steamy scene in the car, as well as the semi-fig-leafed scene where
Jack draws his new girlfriend, are not central to the movie. Even though
they are real crowd-pleasers, the plot would not have suffered by
editing the car scene so that the frantically-excited couple are merely
shown getting into the car and doing some intense necking (leave
something to the imagination). And the drawing scene would have worked
just as well with PG-type fig-leafing instead of the tantalization of
"Ohmygosh, is she really showing her wobbly bits?"

If we write an article on [[nudity in American film]], then the picture
would be an excellent illustration. It's not really representative of
Titanic, as the article stood yesterday. "King of the world" gets my
vote instead.

Uncle Ed


subject: [Wikitech-l] Language conversion

body:
On Thursday 14 April 2005 01:19, Pablo Saratxaga wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 10:55:14PM +0200, Milos Rancic wrote:
> > > While I recognize that there are long established traditions favouring
> > > the two script approach to Serbian, I think that the ekavian/iyekavian
> > > distinction is going too far.  It makes the idea of a single Serbian
>
> is that difference only with the letter "e"?
> If yes, why can't it be decided that some people pronounce it
> as "je" (like they do in Russian, they just write "?" and not "??")
> and some other people pronounce it as "e", and keep a single way of
> writting?
>
> or the other way around, always write the "j", but some people not
> pronounce it.

No, unfortunately, there are numerous es and jes which are same in both
dialects. This is explained nicely in [[Serbo-Croatian language]] (at least,
it was the last time I've checked).

> having two different writting systems just for that (which means four
> different writting systemns in total) seems unjustified;

Actually, there are only two writing systems, but as they are phonetic, same
words are written differently because people are telling them differently.


from_name: Faraaz Damji

body:
I disagree.  I've found most people to be kind and helpful.  Something
like Wikipedia tends to draw people of a different intellectual and
moral level than most other environments, and I think that a lot of
editors have come to value that.  If you think that there are serious
problems with Wikipedia, there's nothing stopping you from starting
another wiki encyclopedia with Wikipedia's content since everything is
GFDL'd.

And the way encarta works, it doesn't look like it'll form a strong
community like there is at Wikipedia.  Sure there are a couple of people
who've ticked me off here, but you're bound to not get along with some
people in a place with hundreds of thousands of people.

--
Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d? s:- a--- C+++ UL++ P+ L+ E---- W++ N+ o+ K+ w+
O? M-- V? PS++ PE Y PGP++ t 5-- X+ R tv b++ DI++ D+
G++ e- h! !r !z
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Stirling Newberry wrote:
>
> On Apr 13, 2005, at 6:08 PM, Faraaz Damji wrote:
>
>> Anthere wrote:
>>
>>> I looked at their review process... I do not see how it could work...
>>> Eh, it reminds me of Nupedia !
>>
>>
>> I agree, but it's different from Nupedia in that they've got tons more
>> resources than Nupedia did.  Still, I don't see encarta becoming the
>> largest encyclopedia in the world, since there is little reason for
>> people to contribute.  It doesn't even seem like they give attribution
>> (do they? If so, where?).
>>
>> I don't think that there will be dedicated editors like there are on
>> Wikipedia, and like there were on Nupedia, since encarta is completely
>> for profit- they're in it for the money and NOT for providing free
>> access to "the sum of all human knowledge." There might be some casual
>> editors who, upon finding something that wasn't previously there, will
>> submit it (eg. if somebody died).  There is little reason I see for
>> anybody going on the site for the purpose of improving it.
>>
>> While it will help keep the encyclopedia more up-to-date, I doubt it
>> will ever become nearly as popular as Wikipedia is.
>>
>> Blog: http://frazzydee.ca
>
>
> Wikipedia is an increasingly hostile environment. Don't dismiss
> alternate venues because the wave is cresting on wikipedia.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Sj said:
> Perhaps we can identify some reasonable notion of "work-safeness"

No.  It's a dumb term only used by people who can't operate a web browser.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Kevin Rector said:
> Tony, I didn't make an "accusation" I made an observation about people
> like User:1337.

Just stop weaseling and withdraw your utterly unsupported accusation of
policy breach.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Sj said:
> On 4/13/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>> Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.
>
> Tony, Wittgenstein would be embarrassed to see you using that quote in
> this context.

I don't think so.  A man who can't even bring himself to type the word
clitorisis truly creating for himself a great gulf of communication.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Chad Perrin said:
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 04:29:30PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
>>
>> I take that very seriously.  It's an extremely damaging accusation,
>> and if Kevin has evidence to support it he should make it public.  If
>> he doesn't well we'll know he's just hand-waving, indulging in attempt
>> to denigrate those who have uploaded images involving nudity.
>
> Whatever happened to an assumption of good faith?

Quite.

> You're assuming bad faith on the part of KR here.

Absolutely not.  He specifically said that he "recognized" that people
were doing something with the deliberate intention of breaching policy.  I
see no room for misinterpretation.   Having no evidence to show, it seems
to me that the assumption of bad faith , and a massive, obvious one at
that, is on his part.  I'm revolted by this.  I see no apology.  I see no
withdrawal, only weaseling and wriggling.  A disgusting accusstion,
disgusting behavior in continuing with it.  He has now confirmed his
accusation of bad faith against a specific, named editor.


body:
On Apr 14, 2005, at 7:38 AM, Faraaz Damji wrote:

> I disagree.  I've found most people to be kind and helpful.  Something
> like Wikipedia tends to draw people of a different intellectual and
> moral level than most other environments, and I think that a lot of
> editors have come to value that.  If you think that there are serious
> problems with Wikipedia, there's nothing stopping you from starting
> another wiki encyclopedia with Wikipedia's content since everything is
> GFDL'd.

Of course the people who are left are happy, it is selection in action.
However, in about 2 years when growth rates on en have flattened off it
will be very visible, the pove growth curve will have long since
outstripped the wikipedian growth curve. At that point it will be
noticeable to the outside world and it will be your competition that
notices it. Right now, of course, everyone is drunk on growth rates and
ever argument is ended by "I'm happy" and "look how fast we are
growing, clearly people are happy". This has happened before to
numerous internet communities - intoxication on the flood of eyeballs.

However, that flood of eyeballs and the link equity they bring are a
thing of value, and people will figure out how to hack the rules to
extract, rather than increase, the link equity. This is already
happening, and the active voting majority on most issues is on making
it easier to extract value from wikipedia. That means you have about 2
years before the community itself is noticeably degraded, and your
competitors will cheerfully point out how wikipedia is crashing and
burning, and cheerfully document the articles which have outrageous
bias, omissions of fact, and are run by people who in the outside world
would be called "fruit loops".

It will be at that point - too late - that "something" will be done
about it, but by then someone else will have set up a competing medium,
and will be earnestly promising that he won't make the same mistakes
that wikipedia made.

This cycle takes time, and there is still ample time to do something
about it, but nothing will be done about it, because the leadership of
the community is confusing people pouring in, with sustainability.


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
I think our next goal is cnn.com which has a daily reach (per million) of
about 20,000. We have just broken 8000 and it is an open question of whether
we can handle 10,000 or more with the current setup. However as we are
running smoothly it is likely that equipment is not holding us back at this
point.

Yes, we are GOOD. Worth billions...

Fred

> From: Neil Harris <usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:13:43 +0100
> To: Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Alexa.com blogs about Wikipedia
>
> And let's not forget Ask Jeeves, which has also been recently passed by
> Wikipedia.
> Considering that Ask Jeeves recently changed hands for almost $2BN, one
> might consider what "value" might be attached to Wikipedia's
> contributions to free knowledge. Now, that's philanthropy!
>
> -- Neil


from_name: geni

body:
> No.  It's a dumb term only used by people who can't operate a web browser.

Would you like to withdraw that statement? If not can you provide any
sources to back it up (ie that every person who useses it doesn't know
how to use a web browser?)

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> It's probable that he thought it was real.  This has entered
> anti-Microsoft folklore.

Source? Who ever it was was able to find [[Special:Upload]] fast so
they have a least a couple of functioning brain cells

> Not the most clueful of guys, but not an obvious troll.  I don't think you
> can seriously hope to discredit the picture on these grounds.

See above

--
geni


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
geni wrote:

>>No.  It's a dumb term only used by people who can't operate a web browser.
>>
>
>Would you like to withdraw that statement? If not can you provide any
>sources to back it up (ie that every person who useses it doesn't know
>how to use a web browser?)
>
It's not so much whether people know how to operate the web
browser, it's that it makes referring to WP an unduly risky
activity. For instance, suppose I'm in the office of a less-clueful
boss, and am trying to get the boss to understand a detail, and I
know WP has a good explanation; it's not going to help my case if
I have to ask the boss to turn off image display before I have
him/her bring up a WP page.

This is another variant on the child-safe debate, and maybe
the filtering needs to be done by a downstream organization (who
could make a nice bit of money from a subscription service I bet),
but if WP gets a reputation as risky to look at, and companies
feel compelled to forbid its use at work, that's going to cut us
off from a large population of professionals that we would really
like to have participating, and during the day, not just nights
and weekends.

Stan


from_name: Tom Haws

body:
Karl A. Krueger wrote:

>Whose workplace?  I know a couple who who work in a sex-toy shop.
>
>
Enough said.


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Bah, Kevin's just trying to stir up trouble.

Christiaan

On 14 Apr 2005, at 8:09 am, Tony Sidaway wrote:

> Chad Perrin said:
>> On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 04:29:30PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
>>>
>>> I take that very seriously.  It's an extremely damaging accusation,
>>> and if Kevin has evidence to support it he should make it public.
>>> If he doesn't well we'll know he's just hand-waving, indulging in
>>> attempt to denigrate those who have uploaded images involving
>>> nudity.
>>
>> Whatever happened to an assumption of good faith?
>
> Quite.
>
>> You're assuming bad faith on the part of KR here.
>
> Absolutely not.  He specifically said that he "recognized" that people
> were doing something with the deliberate intention of breaching
> policy.  I see no room for misinterpretation.   Having no evidence to
> show, it seems to me that the assumption of bad faith , and a massive,
> obvious one at that, is on his part.  I'm revolted by this.  I see no
> apology.  I see no withdrawal, only weaseling and wriggling.  A
> disgusting accusstion, disgusting behavior in continuing with it.  He
> has now confirmed his accusation of bad faith against a specific,
> named editor.


from_name: P. Steemans

subject: [Wikitech-l] Help for a new wiki web site

body:
Hello dear all,
I don't know if it is the right place to send this EMail, I will see soon...
Sorry in adavance for my poor english :-[
I'm trying to build a wiki web site for a professional use. I'm
paleontologist and I want to create a databank on fossil species with the
help of my colleague dispersed all around the world. It will be a non-public
website, the subject is too much specialized for non professionals.
I have no good knowledge in informatic, therefore, it is not very easy for
me.
I have different questions to ask, if somebody can help me on those
topics, thank you in advance:
1) As sysop, normally I can block users. To test this function I have
tried to block an user but the system refuse the username and ask for the
IP address? How can I solve this problem? IP address is not interesting as
many of us use different computers with different IP adresses. By example:
I have three computers connected to internet with, of course, three
different IP adresses. In addition I don't know the IP address of the
other users.
2) In the page "special pages for all users" the different entries towards
the different special pages are not alphabetically organized, isn't possible to sort
them in alphabetic order?
3) It is the same for the special page on categories. They are all mixed.
Isn't possible to sort them in an alphabetic order?
4) In the Wikipedia website, I have seen that it is possible, in editing a
page, to insert special characters in using a table containing them in the
lower part of the edited page. This is a very useful tool. How can I add
this in my wiki website?

Sorry to ask you so much questions.
Thanks a lot for all help.
Regards
Philippe

-- Dr. P. Steemans Chercheur Qualifi? du FNRS Pal?obotanique -
Pal?opalynologie - Micropal?ontologie (PPM) Universit? de Li?ge 6, All?e
du Six Ao?t, B?t. B-18 B-4000 Li?ge 1 Belgium t?l + 32 (0)4 366 53 33
FAX + 32 (0) 4 366 53 38

--
Dr. P. Steemans

Chercheur Qualifi? du FNRS
Universit? de Li?ge
Pal?obotanique-Pal?opalynologie-Micropal?ontologie (PPM)
All?e du 6 Ao?t, B?t. B-18, parking 40
Campus du Sart Tilman
B-4000 Li?ge 1
Belgique

T?l: 00 32 (0)4 366 53 33
FAX: 00 32 (0)4 366 53 38


body:
Stirling Newberry wrote:

>
> On Apr 14, 2005, at 7:38 AM, Faraaz Damji wrote:
>
>> I disagree.  I've found most people to be kind and helpful.  Something
>> like Wikipedia tends to draw people of a different intellectual and
>> moral level than most other environments, and I think that a lot of
>> editors have come to value that.  If you think that there are serious
>> problems with Wikipedia, there's nothing stopping you from starting
>> another wiki encyclopedia with Wikipedia's content since everything is
>> GFDL'd.
>
>
>
> Of course the people who are left are happy, it is selection in
> action. However, in about 2 years when growth rates on en have
> flattened off it will be very visible, the pove growth curve will have
> long since outstripped the wikipedian growth curve. At that point it
> will be noticeable to the outside world and it will be your
> competition that notices it. Right now, of course, everyone is drunk
> on growth rates and ever argument is ended by "I'm happy" and "look
> how fast we are growing, clearly people are happy". This has happened
> before to numerous internet communities - intoxication on the flood of
> eyeballs.

Amen. For a serious encyclopedia, it should be just as important
to track the knowledge level of the editing, and my unscientific
observation is that expert-level participation has been flat at
best, even though the number of editors has been increasing. For
instance, we seem to have averaged only about one serious
ichthyology active at any one time during the past two years. So
we get a situation where there is no one writing about fish
physiology, but hey, we have a "shark template".

I don't have anything against obscure football clubs or train
stations, and have added my own share of trivia, but I could
easily see experts flocking to improve Encarta because the process
is friendlier to them, while WP becomes known as the preserve of
soccer hooligans and trainspotters. :-)

Stan


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Alexa.com blogs about Wikipedia

body:
Andrew Lih wrote:

>The lead blog story on Alexa's front page today is about Wikipedia
>surpassing NY Times in terms of traffic rank. Traffic has spiked
>upwards in the last month, and sits at #66 for today.
>
>

I've just ordered another 20 servers for our Florida cluster, and with
the recently announced Yahoo deal, as well
as deals we are working on with some European educational/governmental
organizations and another major search
engine, we will within the next few months more than double our total
capacity, and expand from 2 data centers
(Florida, Paris) to 5 or 6 (Florida, somewhere in Asia, Amsterdam,
Brussels, Paris, and another).

Pretty neat.

:-)


from_name: mm

subject: [Wikitech-l] How to read database using only mysql?

body:
I have a question. Can I read a local wikpedia database using only mtsql?
Can somebody help me?
How can I do this?
Thanks,
Mircea


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Conflict between two Wikipedias

body:
Hi Milos,

Thanks for your message.

The problem is indeed similar but there is an added problem.

Imagine for a moment that Serbian was only written in Cyrillic, but
that there was another language, let's call it "Naibres", which was
basically identical to Serbian except for political purposes. Now,
Naibres is officially written in the Cyrillic alphabet, but 10% of
Naibres users use the Latin alphabet.

Now, with a Serbian Wikipedia already existing and being relatively
large, would users wanting to add Latin-script content (in this
hypothetical case, not in the real world) be allowed to add it to the
Serbian Wikipedia since no "Serbian" speakers would use the alphabet,
or should a separate Wikipedia be created for Naibres?

And if a separate Wikipedia were created for Naibres, should it only
be written in Latin because any Cyrillic content would be a
duplication of the Serbian content?

I know the hypothetical is confusing, but if you can work your mind
around it that is basically the situation on the ground with Romanian
and Moldovan.

ro.wiki has over 11000 articles, but there is no willingness to accept
content in the Cyrillic alphabet, which is fine. So people started
having content in both scripts at mo:, but the very small community at
mo: (two or three people) has decided to redirect all Latin-script
pages to ro.wikipedia because the text is basically identical and we
don't want to create a content fork.

Ronline believes we should move Cyrillic pages to a separate subdomain
since Cyrillic is not the official or majority script of "Moldovan
language", but I believe that, since we already have two separate
Wikipedias, we can use ro.wiki for /all/ Latin-script content, and
mo.wiki for /all/ Cyrillic-script content, as long as there is a
prominently-placed link on the mo.wiki mainpage (see
http://mo.wikipedia.org , where it says "click aici" is the link)

Mark

On 4/14/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/13/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Many Serbians (though certainly not all) believe Bosnian is a dialect
> > of Serbian or is identical, but there is no interference with Serbians
> > complaining about the Bosnian Wikipedia or vice-versa, and Serbian is
> > bi-scriptal even though Latin is mostly used for "Montenegrin" which
> > is in a similar situation to Moldovan (except it isn't officially
> > recognised as a separate language).
>
> Serbs are using both scripts (in Belgrade, Podgorica and Banja Luka)
> and it seems that situation with Moldavians are similar (not the same)
> with Serbian problem.
>
> So, I suggest Chinese solution for Moldavians. They would have Latin
> and Cyrillic interface such Chinese have Simplified and Traditional
> script. Please, look Zhengzhu's page at Meta:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_traditional_Chinese
>


body:
Oh, and in addition:

While there is a 1-to-1 correspondence for Serbian between Latin and
Cyrillic (Latin digraphs nonwithstanding), there is not between Latin
and Cyrillic for Moldovan, so Latin -> Cyrillic conversion by computer
is impossible (well, not impossible, but it would require AI),
although Cyrillic -> Latin is usually possible.

Mark

On 4/14/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Milos,
>
> Thanks for your message.
>
> The problem is indeed similar but there is an added problem.
>
> Imagine for a moment that Serbian was only written in Cyrillic, but
> that there was another language, let's call it "Naibres", which was
> basically identical to Serbian except for political purposes. Now,
> Naibres is officially written in the Cyrillic alphabet, but 10% of
> Naibres users use the Latin alphabet.
>
> Now, with a Serbian Wikipedia already existing and being relatively
> large, would users wanting to add Latin-script content (in this
> hypothetical case, not in the real world) be allowed to add it to the
> Serbian Wikipedia since no "Serbian" speakers would use the alphabet,
> or should a separate Wikipedia be created for Naibres?
>
> And if a separate Wikipedia were created for Naibres, should it only
> be written in Latin because any Cyrillic content would be a
> duplication of the Serbian content?
>
> I know the hypothetical is confusing, but if you can work your mind
> around it that is basically the situation on the ground with Romanian
> and Moldovan.
>
> ro.wiki has over 11000 articles, but there is no willingness to accept
> content in the Cyrillic alphabet, which is fine. So people started
> having content in both scripts at mo:, but the very small community at
> mo: (two or three people) has decided to redirect all Latin-script
> pages to ro.wikipedia because the text is basically identical and we
> don't want to create a content fork.
>
> Ronline believes we should move Cyrillic pages to a separate subdomain
> since Cyrillic is not the official or majority script of "Moldovan
> language", but I believe that, since we already have two separate
> Wikipedias, we can use ro.wiki for /all/ Latin-script content, and
> mo.wiki for /all/ Cyrillic-script content, as long as there is a
> prominently-placed link on the mo.wiki mainpage (see
> http://mo.wikipedia.org , where it says "click aici" is the link)
>
> Mark
>
> On 4/14/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 4/13/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Many Serbians (though certainly not all) believe Bosnian is a dialect
> > > of Serbian or is identical, but there is no interference with Serbians
> > > complaining about the Bosnian Wikipedia or vice-versa, and Serbian is
> > > bi-scriptal even though Latin is mostly used for "Montenegrin" which
> > > is in a similar situation to Moldovan (except it isn't officially
> > > recognised as a separate language).
> >
> > Serbs are using both scripts (in Belgrade, Podgorica and Banja Luka)
> > and it seems that situation with Moldavians are similar (not the same)
> > with Serbian problem.
> >
> > So, I suggest Chinese solution for Moldavians. They would have Latin
> > and Cyrillic interface such Chinese have Simplified and Traditional
> > script. Please, look Zhengzhu's page at Meta:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_traditional_Chinese
> >
>


from_name: Richard Holton

body:
On 4/14/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sean Barrett wrote:
>
> >>>Perhaps we can identify some reasonable notion of "work-safeness"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>No.  It's a dumb term only used by people who can't operate a web browser.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Wow, that's an amazingly helpful comment, Tony.  I'm so glad you're
> >here; you're such a valuable contributor to this project.
> >
> >
> >
> That's enough, both of you. Sollog is winning. I'm not calling either of
> you Sollog; but this is *exactly* the kind of thing that the detractors
> of the Wikipedia want - for the project to fall apart through petty
> flame wars. We'll already lost enough valuable contributors - we don't
> need you to go as well. Now take a deep breath, and forget about this
> whole thing. It's not worth it. The topic of content suitability has
> been raised before, will be raised again, and I suggest that we all
> ignore it until a suitable proposal from the Wikimedia foundation is put
> forth.
>
> --

Alphax,

I agree that the petty flame-wars -- including bickering and
thinly-disguised name-calling -- needs to stop. It seems that some
email messages have little purpose beyond one-upsmanship; they don't
seem to contribute anything to the goal of creating a great
encyclopedia.

But I don't know that we can simply ignore this issue until the
foundation makes a proposal. I'm not sure that the foundation is
inclined to do that. Nor am I certain that it would be desirable for
them to do so.

I believe that the Wikipedia community still has enough thoughtful
people that a workable consensus can be achieved on controversial
issues such as this.  It will take time and effort, and it will take
some of the same skills that we use to create NPOV articles. Isn't the
ability to see and understand POV's other than your own important, if
not essential, to our task?

However, that particular skill seems to be quite lacking in some
recent conversations. I'm guessing that many involved Wikipedians who
have that skill in abundance are not interested in engaging in the
type of dialog that has been common of late. I suspect they're busily
working on generating NPOV content. Perhaps when the flames die down,
some real progress can be made.

-- Rich Holton

[[W:en:User:Rholton]]


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>Sj said:
>
>
>>On 4/13/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.
>>>
>>>
>>Tony, Wittgenstein would be embarrassed to see you using that quote in
>>this context.
>>
>>
>I don't think so.  A man who can't even bring himself to type the word
>clitorisis truly creating for himself a great gulf of communication.
>
What would make it difficult for me to bring myself to type "clitorisis"
is the simple fact that it's a misspelling.  I have considered pushing
the POV that the proper plural should be "clitorides".  :-)

Ec


body:
Yes, nobody's arguing here that Moldovan is really an actually
different language from Romanian (the en.wikipedia article is,
however, a bit biased towards a Romanian nationalist POV).

What we're saying is, although Latin is the official script in
Moldova, 10% of Moldovans use Cyrillic, and Cyrillic is official in
the de facto independent [[Transnistria]] (which is not recognised as
independent by the UN, any of its member states, or the government of
Taiwan).

Mark

On 4/14/05, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> If we're going to have an mo: encyclopedia (and it's not at all
> obvious to me that this is the right solution), then it had better
> allow the inclusion of text in the official Moldovan alphabet.
>
> Elaborate concerns re: 'duplication of effort' may be premature,
> considering how little time has been put into mo: and its 12 stubs.
> But should WP really have a "Moldovan" Wikipedia?
>
> Even in the Wikipedia subculture of language preservation (and
> resuscitation), mo: is an anomaly.  The Wikipedia article on the
> subject says it all:
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language
> We may not wish Wikipedia to become a battleground for this kind of
> political battle.
>
> --
> +sj+
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
> As we start to improve the inclusion of sound and video, both linked
> and streaming,  we will have to find ways to warn people of all manner
> of media that are not work-safe; pages which will automatically play
> loud sounds (the sound of a car crash as you open [[auto accident]],
> perhaps?) would fall into the same category.

Pages that automaticaly play sounds are a really bad idea. Think of
the poor kids in africa on dialup.

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
>>>> Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.
>>>
To quote Bob Hope and Lucy Ricardo, "I may be dumb, but translate chum.
In English Please Sen~or."  Thank you.

Tom Haws


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>Stan Shebs said:
>
>>It's not so much whether people know how to operate the web
>>browser, it's that it makes referring to WP an unduly risky
>>activity. For instance, suppose I'm in the office of a less-clueful
>>boss, and am trying to get the boss to understand a detail, and I
>>know WP has a good explanation; it's not going to help my case if
>>I have to ask the boss to turn off image display before I have
>>him/her bring up a WP page.
>>
>
>Precisely. You're blaming Wikipedia for your boss's cluelessness.
>
>
Are you fifteen years old or what? I'm describing the realities
of the workplace - responsible adults with mortgages and families
depending on them don't get themselves fired just to make a free
speech point. You can fulminate about it all you want, but that's
not going to change anything.

A WP with nudity on every page (which sounds great to me actually,
much more interesting than what we have now :-) - I can contribute
scans of my "nudes on postage stamps") is certainly doable, and
will no doubt have a contingent characterizing the result as a
"great encyclopedia", but its readership will be rather limited.
You can expect to see a great many forks at that point, and most
editors will likely migrate to one of them, because they're going
to go where the readers are to be found. So the situation will
resolve itself in favor of a somewhat restrictive image policy
sooner or later; just a question of whether you want to do it now,
or after a painful forking process.

Stan


body:
Stan Shebs wrote:

> I'm describing the realities
> of the workplace - responsible adults with mortgages and families
> depending on them don't get themselves fired just to make a free
> speech point. You can fulminate about it all you want, but that's
> not going to change anything.
>
> A WP with nudity on every page (which sounds great to me actually,
> much more interesting than what we have now :-) - I can contribute
> scans of my "nudes on postage stamps") is certainly doable, and
> will no doubt have a contingent characterizing the result as a
> "great encyclopedia", but its readership will be rather limited.
> You can expect to see a great many forks at that point, and most
> editors will likely migrate to one of them, because they're going
> to go where the readers are to be found. So the situation will
> resolve itself in favor of a somewhat restrictive image policy
> sooner or later; just a question of whether you want to do it now,
> or after a painful forking process.

Tony,

Do what I did here.  Take away the personal attack from Stan's message,
and then read the rest.  Stan is simply telling the truth.

Tom Haws


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

in_reply_to:
<425EA1C4.2030103@sprintmail.com> (message from Tom Haws on Thu,
	14 Apr 2005 10:00:52 -0700)

body:
> >>>> Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.
> >>>
> To quote Bob Hope and Lucy Ricardo, "I may be dumb, but translate chum.
> In English Please Sen~or."  Thank you.

Cut'n'paste from Google language tools:
"About which one cannot speak, over it one must be silent."


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
>>>>>>Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.
>>>>>>
OK, so I am both clueless and Germanless.  May I have a fully nuanced
interpretation from the original speaker or an insider, please?

Tom


subject: [WikiEN-l] Kate Winslet Exposure

body:
Alphax wrote:

> Andy Roberts wrote:
>
>> I haven't seen it yet and now you've spoiled the ending!
>
> It's about the Titanic. It sinks.
>
> AFAIK, the movie is not about the Titanic sinking, it's about the
> aforementioned (hemi-demi-semi)nude Kate Winslet.

Ahhh!  I think I'm beginning to understand.  It's about the tragedy of
sinking breasts that comes with aging. :-)

Ec


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] New vote on domain names

body:
Hi,

Le Wednesday 13 April 2005 23:38, Angela a ?crit :
> A new vote on whether to split Wikisource into separate domains began
> yesterday. Please see the following links for the voting page and
> previous discussion.
>
> ?????????? ??????? wikisource ?? ????????? ? ???????????:
>
> http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:New_vote_on_language_subdomains
> http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:New_discussion_on_language_subdomains
> http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium/Language_domain_proposal
> http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium/Language_domain_requests
>
> Angela (forwarded from the wikiRU-A list)

Please note that only vote from people already active in Wikisource are
accounted.

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Foundation-l] New vote on domain names


body:
I guess that this is OK.

But I think that the majority of users of mo.wikipedia will, no matter
what, always be primarily users of Cyrillic, and I think that it
should be dominant there until such time as there are more Moldovan
users there who use Latin, if that is ever the case.

By the way, why exactly is it that there are separate Wikipedias for
Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian? If everybody worked together, you
could have a much larger Wikipedia by now - Serbian has over 10k, but
Croatian is quite large too and Bosnian has over 1000 - imagine if you
worked together to make one Wikipedia.

And as I noted earlier, conversion between Latin Moldovan and Cyrillic
Moldovan by computer is not possible or at least not practical (it
would require neural networking or AI or something)

Mark

On 4/14/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> We had the similar situation with Serbo-Croatian standard language
> (divided into Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian standard). We solved that
> with separation of Wikipedias.
>
> However, I think that Wikipedias are (standard) language-based, not
> national-based (in general, I am sure that we can find some
> national-based Wikipedia). So, solution is (as I see) very simple:
>
> 1. Moldavians who think that their language is Romanian should write
> into Romanian Wikipedia (only in Latin alphabet).
>
> 2. Moldavians who think that their language is Moldavian should write
> into Moldavian Wikipedia. Also, those Moldavians can implement Chinese
> (and future Serbian) solution for them: they will have tabs (where
> "edit", "dicsussion" and "history" tabs are) where they can choose
> script. Also, they would have possibility to choose their interface
> (Cyrillic or Latin).
>
> Also, note that content on Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedia can
> be treated as "duplicated content".
>
> On 4/14/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Milos,
> >
> > Thanks for your message.
> >
> > The problem is indeed similar but there is an added problem.
> >
> > Imagine for a moment that Serbian was only written in Cyrillic, but
> > that there was another language, let's call it "Naibres", which was
> > basically identical to Serbian except for political purposes. Now,
> > Naibres is officially written in the Cyrillic alphabet, but 10% of
> > Naibres users use the Latin alphabet.
> >
> > Now, with a Serbian Wikipedia already existing and being relatively
> > large, would users wanting to add Latin-script content (in this
> > hypothetical case, not in the real world) be allowed to add it to the
> > Serbian Wikipedia since no "Serbian" speakers would use the alphabet,
> > or should a separate Wikipedia be created for Naibres?
> >
> > And if a separate Wikipedia were created for Naibres, should it only
> > be written in Latin because any Cyrillic content would be a
> > duplication of the Serbian content?
> >
> > I know the hypothetical is confusing, but if you can work your mind
> > around it that is basically the situation on the ground with Romanian
> > and Moldovan.
> >
> > ro.wiki has over 11000 articles, but there is no willingness to accept
> > content in the Cyrillic alphabet, which is fine. So people started
> > having content in both scripts at mo:, but the very small community at
> > mo: (two or three people) has decided to redirect all Latin-script
> > pages to ro.wikipedia because the text is basically identical and we
> > don't want to create a content fork.
> >
> > Ronline believes we should move Cyrillic pages to a separate subdomain
> > since Cyrillic is not the official or majority script of "Moldovan
> > language", but I believe that, since we already have two separate
> > Wikipedias, we can use ro.wiki for /all/ Latin-script content, and
> > mo.wiki for /all/ Cyrillic-script content, as long as there is a
> > prominently-placed link on the mo.wiki mainpage (see
> > http://mo.wikipedia.org , where it says "click aici" is the link)
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 4/14/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 4/13/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Many Serbians (though certainly not all) believe Bosnian is a dialect
> > > > of Serbian or is identical, but there is no interference with Serbians
> > > > complaining about the Bosnian Wikipedia or vice-versa, and Serbian is
> > > > bi-scriptal even though Latin is mostly used for "Montenegrin" which
> > > > is in a similar situation to Moldovan (except it isn't officially
> > > > recognised as a separate language).
> > >
> > > Serbs are using both scripts (in Belgrade, Podgorica and Banja Luka)
> > > and it seems that situation with Moldavians are similar (not the same)
> > > with Serbian problem.
> > >
> > > So, I suggest Chinese solution for Moldavians. They would have Latin
> > > and Cyrillic interface such Chinese have Simplified and Traditional
> > > script. Please, look Zhengzhu's page at Meta:
> > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_traditional_Chinese
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Richard Holton wrote:

>I found this page (from another wiki) to be useful in understanding the quote.
>
>http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LittleWittgensteinQuote
>
>
Thank you, Richard.  Essentially,

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen."

Expresses the idea that /"What is sayable at all, lets itself be said clearly; and what you cannot speak of, of that one should remain silent"
/
Tom Haws
//


body:
And I would also like to add the same for the Indonesian/Malaysian
Wikipedias. I think it's sad that these nearly-identical languages are
spreading their resources thin over multiple projects based more on
nationality than actual linguistic differences.

Mark

On 4/14/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess that this is OK.
>
> But I think that the majority of users of mo.wikipedia will, no matter
> what, always be primarily users of Cyrillic, and I think that it
> should be dominant there until such time as there are more Moldovan
> users there who use Latin, if that is ever the case.
>
> By the way, why exactly is it that there are separate Wikipedias for
> Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian? If everybody worked together, you
> could have a much larger Wikipedia by now - Serbian has over 10k, but
> Croatian is quite large too and Bosnian has over 1000 - imagine if you
> worked together to make one Wikipedia.
>
> And as I noted earlier, conversion between Latin Moldovan and Cyrillic
> Moldovan by computer is not possible or at least not practical (it
> would require neural networking or AI or something)
>
> Mark
>
> On 4/14/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > We had the similar situation with Serbo-Croatian standard language
> > (divided into Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian standard). We solved that
> > with separation of Wikipedias.
> >
> > However, I think that Wikipedias are (standard) language-based, not
> > national-based (in general, I am sure that we can find some
> > national-based Wikipedia). So, solution is (as I see) very simple:
> >
> > 1. Moldavians who think that their language is Romanian should write
> > into Romanian Wikipedia (only in Latin alphabet).
> >
> > 2. Moldavians who think that their language is Moldavian should write
> > into Moldavian Wikipedia. Also, those Moldavians can implement Chinese
> > (and future Serbian) solution for them: they will have tabs (where
> > "edit", "dicsussion" and "history" tabs are) where they can choose
> > script. Also, they would have possibility to choose their interface
> > (Cyrillic or Latin).
> >
> > Also, note that content on Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedia can
> > be treated as "duplicated content".
> >
> > On 4/14/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Milos,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your message.
> > >
> > > The problem is indeed similar but there is an added problem.
> > >
> > > Imagine for a moment that Serbian was only written in Cyrillic, but
> > > that there was another language, let's call it "Naibres", which was
> > > basically identical to Serbian except for political purposes. Now,
> > > Naibres is officially written in the Cyrillic alphabet, but 10% of
> > > Naibres users use the Latin alphabet.
> > >
> > > Now, with a Serbian Wikipedia already existing and being relatively
> > > large, would users wanting to add Latin-script content (in this
> > > hypothetical case, not in the real world) be allowed to add it to the
> > > Serbian Wikipedia since no "Serbian" speakers would use the alphabet,
> > > or should a separate Wikipedia be created for Naibres?
> > >
> > > And if a separate Wikipedia were created for Naibres, should it only
> > > be written in Latin because any Cyrillic content would be a
> > > duplication of the Serbian content?
> > >
> > > I know the hypothetical is confusing, but if you can work your mind
> > > around it that is basically the situation on the ground with Romanian
> > > and Moldovan.
> > >
> > > ro.wiki has over 11000 articles, but there is no willingness to accept
> > > content in the Cyrillic alphabet, which is fine. So people started
> > > having content in both scripts at mo:, but the very small community at
> > > mo: (two or three people) has decided to redirect all Latin-script
> > > pages to ro.wikipedia because the text is basically identical and we
> > > don't want to create a content fork.
> > >
> > > Ronline believes we should move Cyrillic pages to a separate subdomain
> > > since Cyrillic is not the official or majority script of "Moldovan
> > > language", but I believe that, since we already have two separate
> > > Wikipedias, we can use ro.wiki for /all/ Latin-script content, and
> > > mo.wiki for /all/ Cyrillic-script content, as long as there is a
> > > prominently-placed link on the mo.wiki mainpage (see
> > > http://mo.wikipedia.org , where it says "click aici" is the link)
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 4/14/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On 4/13/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Many Serbians (though certainly not all) believe Bosnian is a dialect
> > > > > of Serbian or is identical, but there is no interference with Serbians
> > > > > complaining about the Bosnian Wikipedia or vice-versa, and Serbian is
> > > > > bi-scriptal even though Latin is mostly used for "Montenegrin" which
> > > > > is in a similar situation to Moldovan (except it isn't officially
> > > > > recognised as a separate language).
> > > >
> > > > Serbs are using both scripts (in Belgrade, Podgorica and Banja Luka)
> > > > and it seems that situation with Moldavians are similar (not the same)
> > > > with Serbian problem.
> > > >
> > > > So, I suggest Chinese solution for Moldavians. They would have Latin
> > > > and Cyrillic interface such Chinese have Simplified and Traditional
> > > > script. Please, look Zhengzhu's page at Meta:
> > > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Automatic_conversion_between_simplified_and_traditional_Chinese
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
>