subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Still on the subject of free will:
"I feel required to stay" -- despite being banned.

John Bradley stated for the record:

> When I have achieved what I want I may do that, but while you still continue
> to act as the unpleasant manipulative person you are I feel required to stay,
> to provide a counterpoint of honest to the likes of you.


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 06:59:26PM +0100, Violet/Riga wrote:
> > I am not antisocial, I just don't want to talk to some of the unpleasant people
> > on here.
>
> Might I suggest unsubscribing then?
>

Certainly, the conflict between his claimed distaste for interacting
with [us/them] and his continued posting to this list does puzzle me.
This is especially the case considering the fact that the complaint that
originally brought him to this list seems to consist of "I don't like
the fact that someone is reading what I'm writing in a public venue, and
I'm unwilling to ask him/her to stop.  I'd really like someone else to
stop him/her for me.  In the meantime, I'm going to do my level best to
insult the people of whom I request assistance."

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Gavin Matthews

subject: [Wikitech-l] Two questions about extension tags

body:
Apologies if this is answered somewhere on the MediaWiki site.
I have looked around, and posted my question on the relevant
talk page without result.

When adding an XML tag extension, is there any support for
attributes?

If an XML tag extension transforms the content into regular Wiki
markup and passes it to the parser, will the links created get
picked up by "What links here"?

Thanks,
Bovlb


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 07:00:24PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> I'll work out my differences when the people when it is possible to do so,
> but as they insist they are always right, they don't answer questions, they
> only solution they are interested in is me conforming to their POV.

While I cannot comment with any authority on whether or not one
particular person has indeed responded to you (that seems to be a point
of contention) on one particular issue, I haven't seen any answerable
questions or reasonable discourse coming from you about anything at all.
If that one person annoys you so, you should A) take it up with him/her,
B) take it to sysops/abritration if this person's behavior is in
provable violation of Wikipedia editing rules, and eventually C) bring
it to Jimbo if you think your concerns haven't been properly addressed.
Trolling for flames on a mailing list is not terribly likely to be
productive for anyone, including you, based on what I understand of your
goals as you have stated them.

>
> I am not after capturing flies.

That was a metaphor.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 07:08:58PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> On the contrary, I have every reason to be here on this list. to deal with
> dishonest people like Violet and Matt. It is others on this system who have
> no reason to be here, as they are not interested in producing an
> encyclopedia but a social club for the inadequate.
>

I thought you said you wanted to avoid community involvement so that you
wouldn't have to "deal with" such people.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 07:12:19PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> Note the manipulative use of language by Chad.
> Note that he expand my comments to cover everyone on the list.
> Note his misrepresentation of my POV.
>

Note your ongoing attempt to alienate everyone.

If something was misrepresented, it was by accident.  Perhaps you would
find it more productive to educate people in their errors, rather than
to simply accuse them of being malicious.

By the way, playing the "victim card" tends to reduce sympathy in one's
position rather than increase it, at least among people whose sympathy
is worth anything.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
John Bradley wrote

> He is stalking. I have been nformed that keepingtrack of users is bad
> form,
> atleast if I do it.

I think you're confusing two things: an open watchlist, and what would be a
deprecated use of it, namely following someone around the site.

I think you're also confusing the right of appeal to this list for
unblocking, which often enough gets a sympathetic response, with bringing up
grievances in a way that is not going to win any friends.

Charles


from_name: John Fader

subject: [Wikitech-l] Which version of mediawiki does en.wikipedia.org run?

body:
Which version of mediawiki does en.wikipedia.org run?

(and, incidentally, is there a reliable way to determine the software
version remotely?)
Thanks,
--
John Fader


from_name: John Bradley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
It is you that is confused.

As I am banned from editing Wikipedia I have no choice but to complain
here.

I am not interested in being the firend of anyone here, it is simply try to get
you to act in a manner which shows the slightest hint of integrity.

From:           	"Charles Matthews" <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
To:             	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:22:20 +0100
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley wrote
>
>
> > He is stalking. I have been nformed that keepingtrack of users is bad
> > form,
> > atleast if I do it.
>
> I think you're confusing two things: an open watchlist, and what would be a
> deprecated use of it, namely following someone around the site.
>
> I think you're also confusing the right of appeal to this list for
> unblocking, which often enough gets a sympathetic response, with bringing up
> grievances in a way that is not going to win any friends.
>
> Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Timwi

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Which version of mediawiki does en.wikipedia.org
	run?

body:
John Fader wrote:
> Which version of mediawiki does en.wikipedia.org run?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Version


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request - HINT TO THE LIST ADMINS

body:
(*HINT TO THE LIST ADMINS*)
The current thread very much resembles the screed that got Plautus
banned from this mailing list.

--Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
You will produce those answers and explanations then wont you. Without
any delay. You can produce logs of the IRC talk and you can provide
copies of the emails that you sent.

It is typical that all you do is claim to have answered but you never actually
have. Eventually people will notice that whilst you claim to have made
replies, you never actaully have. You dishonesty will become apparent.

My insight into my self and the world, is usually regarded by those in a
position to asses these things objectively, as being very good and very
accurate. I do have the odd personal flaw like impatients, not suffereing
fools gladly and intolerance of the dishonest. I believe this may effect my
relationship with a lot of wikipedians.

I note you still haven't provided any data to back up your claim that being
nice to idiots is overall benifical to wikipedia.

Date sent:      	Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:04:06 +1000
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
From:           	David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley (john at ontobus.co.uk) [050424 23:50]:
>
> > I am not interested in being the firend of anyone here, it is simply try to get
> > you to act in a manner which shows the slightest hint of integrity.
>
>
> We have integrity. You lack perception or the faintest self-insight.
>
> You keep randomly harassing me on IRC with "yu owe me explnation". You've
> had explanations aplenty and you just don't take them in. You seem
> incapable of understanding that you are banned from editing because of your
> own actions. Until you understand that, there's no hope for you on
> Wikipedia.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Then how to I get it removed.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:16:47 -0700
From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
Organization:   	Boskonia
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
>
> You don't have to put up with crap.  You have choices.
>
>
>
>
> John Bradley stated for the record:
>
> > No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
> >
> >
> > Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
> > From:           	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> > To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> > Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
> >   	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> >
> >>Have you asked Matt?
> >>
> >>On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I would like to request the following page be deleted
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> >>>things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
> >>>arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
> >>>               Yours
> >>>
> >>>               John Bradley
> >>>
> >>>Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> >>>Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
> >>>Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> >>>WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
So in other words I do have to put up with it.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:31:28 -0700
From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
Organization:   	Boskonia
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
>
>
>
> John Bradley stated for the record:
>
> > Then how to I get it removed.
> >
> > Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:16:47 -0700
> > From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> > Organization:   	Boskonia
> > To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> > Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> >
> >>Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
> >>
> >>You don't have to put up with crap.  You have choices.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>John Bradley stated for the record:
> >>
> >>
> >>>No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
> >>>From:           	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> >>>To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>>Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> >>>Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
> >>>  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> >>>
> >>>>Have you asked Matt?
> >>>>
> >>>>On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I would like to request the following page be deleted
> >>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> >>>>>things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
> >>>>>arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
> >>>>>              Yours
> >>>>>
> >>>>>              John Bradley
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> >>>>>Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
> >>>>>Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> >>>>>WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> >
> > 		Yours
> >
> > 		John Bradley
> >
> > Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
> > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> --
>   Sean Barrett     | When in doubt, use more thermite.
>   sean at epoptic.com |
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Page delete request.

body:
John Bradley wrote:
>
> I do have [...] impatients

Are you an imdoctor?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Page delete request.

body:
John Bradley wrote:
> So in other words I do have to put up with it.

Heh. Matt has put up a page, and now you have to put up with it.

Maybe you should put down the issue?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Free will and being able to control you sub conscious and it's needs are not
the same thing at all.

The idea of lowering myself to the level of the average wikipedian is not
appealing. That most of them don't appear to be hear for Wikipedias stated
aims but for some other aims. I do not wish to join the "Wikipedia
community", I wish to help produce an encyclopedia, and seeing as one of
the most annoying features of wikipedians is their tendrncy to claim to
speak for everyone in the community when try to brow beat. I have no
intention of bolstering  the numbers they can claim to command/speak for.

The idea of losing my integrity and taking part in a ritual is unpleasant, and
as far as I can tell that's what this is.

I find talk to Matt very difficult as he seems to forget everything from email
to the next.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:45:44 -0700
From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
Organization:   	Boskonia
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> I assumed you had free will.  (Silly of me, I know, but I like to think
> the best of people until they prove me wrong.)  Are options like
> contacting Matt Crypto, actually becoming a part of the Wikipedia
> community instead of quixotically fighting it, or going way and finding
> something else to do with your life utterly beyond the realm of possibility?
>
>
>
> John Bradley stated for the record:
>
> > So in other words I do have to put up with it.
> >
> > Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:31:28 -0700
> > From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> > Organization:   	Boskonia
> > To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> > Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> >
> >>Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>John Bradley stated for the record:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Then how to I get it removed.
> >>>
> >>>Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:16:47 -0700
> >>>From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> >>>Organization:   	Boskonia
> >>>To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>>Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> >>>Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> >>>
> >>>>Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
> >>>>
> >>>>You don't have to put up with crap.  You have choices.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>John Bradley stated for the record:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
> >>>>>From:           	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> >>>>>To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>>>>Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> >>>>>Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
> >>>>> 	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>>>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Have you asked Matt?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I would like to request the following page be deleted
> >>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> >>>>>>>things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
> >>>>>>>arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Timwi wrote:

>Heh. Imagine:
>
>Jimbo: "OK, guys. What should we call our new project?"
>Larry Sanger: "How about 'Wikipedia'?"
>Jimbo: "That sounds cool. But how is it going to work?"
>Jeremy Rosenfeld: "I have an idea! Let's use a wiki!"
>Jimbo: "Brilliant! Jeremy, you're the man!"
>Larry Sanger: "But it was *my* idea!"
>
>
Can we work a secret porn business into the script somehow? =]

-Mark


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 09:01:29PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> I don't count defending myself as involvment the kind of involment in the
> community that is being talked about.
>

>From what, precisely, are you defending yourself?  If you hadn't
involved yourself in mailing list discussion in the first place, you
would never have come up in the minds of those of us who are not those
from whom you seem to want to defend yourself.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 09:09:03PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> I am against what I do being singled out. The information will be available
> under the User Contributions list anyway.

Am I simply not understanding what the heck you're talking about, or is
this a complete nonsequitur within the context of a reply to the email
of mine that you quoted in your reply?

>
> If I was trying for victimhood, I'd be a lot quieter.

Something tells me you missed the point.

I referred to "playing the victim card", not "being a victim".  The
former involves making yourself appear to be a victim with the intent of
affecting the perceptions of others, typically for purposes of garnering
sympathy and/or supporting your opinion of yourself as the "better man".
The latter involves actually having something done to you.  I did not
suggest that you wanted to be a victim: rather, I suggested that you
wanted people to think you were being mistreated and made exaggerative
statements designed to foster that impression.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Violet/Riga

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I'm sorry but I have no option but to give you the Comedy Gold award
for this latest one, particularly "The idea of lowering myself to the
level of the average wikipedian is not appealing."

It can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Comedy_gold.png

Would you like me to place it on your user/talk page?

On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> Free will and being able to control you sub conscious and it's needs are not
> the same thing at all.
>
> The idea of lowering myself to the level of the average wikipedian is not
> appealing. That most of them don't appear to be hear for Wikipedias stated
> aims but for some other aims. I do not wish to join the "Wikipedia
> community", I wish to help produce an encyclopedia, and seeing as one of
> the most annoying features of wikipedians is their tendrncy to claim to
> speak for everyone in the community when try to brow beat. I have no
> intention of bolstering  the numbers they can claim to command/speak for.
>
> The idea of losing my integrity and taking part in a ritual is unpleasant, and
> as far as I can tell that's what this is.
>
> I find talk to Matt very difficult as he seems to forget everything from email
> to the next.
>
> Date sent:              Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:45:44 -0700
> From:                   Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> Organization:           Boskonia
> To:                     English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject:                Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> Send reply to:          English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>        <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>        <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>
> > I assumed you had free will.  (Silly of me, I know, but I like to think
> > the best of people until they prove me wrong.)  Are options like
> > contacting Matt Crypto, actually becoming a part of the Wikipedia
> > community instead of quixotically fighting it, or going way and finding
> > something else to do with your life utterly beyond the realm of possibility?
> >
> >
> >
> > John Bradley stated for the record:
> >
> > > So in other words I do have to put up with it.
> > >
> > > Date sent:          Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:31:28 -0700
> > > From:               Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> > > Organization:       Boskonia
> > > To:                 English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > > Subject:            Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> > > Send reply to:      English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > >     <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >     <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> > >
> > >>Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>John Bradley stated for the record:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Then how to I get it removed.
> > >>>
> > >>>Date sent:         Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:16:47 -0700
> > >>>From:              Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> > >>>Organization:      Boskonia
> > >>>To:                English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > >>>Subject:           Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> > >>>Send reply to:     English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > >>>   <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>   <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>You don't have to put up with crap.  You have choices.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>John Bradley stated for the record:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Date sent:       Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
> > >>>>>From:            MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>To:              English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > >>>>>Subject:         Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> > >>>>>Copies to:       Send reply to:          MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
> > >>>>>         English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > >>>>> <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>>> <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>Have you asked Matt?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>I would like to request the following page be deleted
> > >>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> > >>>>>>>things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
> > >>>>>>>arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>                Yours
>
>                John Bradley
>
> Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

~~~~ Violet/Riga


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
What a surprise to find VileTriga continuing her attacks. Having made
spurious claims of 3RR etc.
		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
What a surprise to find you continuing your attacks. Incase you are
incapable of reading, the user is called Violet/Riga, I believe.

I'm wondering why you haven't been removed from the mailing list, because
your whinging is increasingly annoying.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Bradley" <john at ontobus.co.uk>
To: "Violet/Riga" <violetriga at gmail.com>; "English Wikipedia"
<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

> What a surprise to find VileTriga continuing her attacks. Having made
> spurious claims of 3RR etc.
> Yours
>
> John Bradley
>
> Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I note you took the personal attacks out of order, in fact you haven't actually
dealt with the first.

From:           	"David 'DJ' Hedley" <spyders at btinternet.com>
To:             	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:41:01 +0100
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> What a surprise to find you continuing your attacks. Incase you are
> incapable of reading, the user is called Violet/Riga, I believe.
>
> I'm wondering why you haven't been removed from the mailing list, because
> your whinging is increasingly annoying.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Bradley" <john at ontobus.co.uk>
> To: "Violet/Riga" <violetriga at gmail.com>; "English Wikipedia"
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
>
>
> > What a surprise to find VileTriga continuing her attacks. Having made
> > spurious claims of 3RR etc.
> > Yours
> >
> > John Bradley
> >
> > Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
>
> To me it looks like a pussy cat, a OE digraph, repeated four times, first
> with a dot, then with a bubble, then with a little jumping baby "1", then
> with a pair of twin baby ">"s.  Then there's a delta and a fancy f.

You are using SquirrelMail (version 1.2.6).

Their website is at http://www.squirrelmail.org/. In particular,
http://www.squirrelmail.org/wiki/SeekingHelp seems to have several
suggestions where you can complain about this bug.

Greetings,
Timwi


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Anthere wrote:
>
> I understood the message would be displayed in my email only in the
> language of my browser.

I'm not sure where you got that from. Your e-mail program is not
supposed to know about (or care about) your browser's settings. Besides,
there is no way to send out an e-mail in such a way that the recipient
will only see a part of it (that is in a given language, for example).

My suggestion would simply be to host all the content on the web, and
have all the links to all the languages in a plain-text e-mail.

Greetings,
Timwi


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] ERROR at line 1035:

body:
mm wrote:
> I was surprised about the time of the rest of the file processing.
> It was 40 minutes for 249 lines.
> For the first 1035 it was 100 minutes.

Note that each "line" contains several megabytes of text.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050424/e757318b/attachment.pgp>


body:
Gavin Matthews wrote:
> Apologies if this is answered somewhere on the MediaWiki site.
> I have looked around, and posted my question on the relevant
> talk page without result.
>
> When adding an XML tag extension, is there any support for
> attributes?

Not yet.

http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=684

> If an XML tag extension transforms the content into regular Wiki
> markup and passes it to the parser, will the links created get
> picked up by "What links here"?

It should, I think, but no guarantees. Try it and see.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050424/70445dbe/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: The Onion on Peer Review

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 10:15:39PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Rowan Collins wrote:
> > On 4/24/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Joseph Reagle wrote:
> >>
> >>> Given the latest fire-storm on questions of authority and peer
> >>> review, this might make some smile! :):)
> >>>
> >>> http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4116&n=3
> >>
> >> The article is a public humiliation of a hard-working 10-year-old
> >> student, and condones the bullying he receives from classmates.
> >> That kind of story makes you smile?
> >
> > And just in case: you do realise it's fiction, don't you. ;)
>
> Where does it say that? The site passes itself off as a "news source",
> so I don't think it was unreasonable of me to think it was real.
>

Err . . . The Onion is satire.  It doesn't seriously purport to be a
"news source" in the normal sense.  Its stories are intended to be taken
as satirical treatments of the news, and as far as I'm aware none of its
stories have ever been true.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
They aren't incompatible in the real world.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:54:45 -0700
From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
Organization:   	Boskonia
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> You claim that you wish to help produce an encyclopedia, yet wish to
> avoid joining our community. These are mutually exclusive wishes, at
> least if Wikipedia is the encyclopedia you wish to help produce.
>
> We will not allow you to fulfill both at the same time.
>
>
>
> John Bradley stated for the record:
>
> > Free will and being able to control you sub conscious and it's needs are not
> > the same thing at all.
> >
> > The idea of lowering myself to the level of the average wikipedian is not
> > appealing. That most of them don't appear to be hear for Wikipedias stated
> > aims but for some other aims. I do not wish to join the "Wikipedia
> > community", I wish to help produce an encyclopedia, and seeing as one of
> > the most annoying features of wikipedians is their tendrncy to claim to
> > speak for everyone in the community when try to brow beat. I have no
> > intention of bolstering  the numbers they can claim to command/speak for.
> >
> > The idea of losing my integrity and taking part in a ritual is unpleasant, and
> > as far as I can tell that's what this is.
> >
> > I find talk to Matt very difficult as he seems to forget everything from email
> > to the next.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Who mentioned the arb comm committee.  Oh yes a member of the
Arbcomm committee.

I'll contact you when ever I want. I have in the past tried to stop various
people contacting me, but of course they didn't bother, I don't see why I
should.

As it is you that have chosen to interfere with my life.

I note thet you haven't produced any of your alledged commuications with
me, or anuthing else.

Date sent:      	Mon, 25 Apr 2005 01:57:29 +1000
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
From:           	David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley (john at ontobus.co.uk) [050425 01:42]:
>
> > I note you took the personal attacks out of order, in fact you haven't actually
> > dealt with the first.
>
>
> If you don't like an Arbitration Committee decision, your line of appeal is
> to Jimbo. Don't contact me again.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
In which case I am already a fully fledgeed member of the community, but
as various people seem to think I am not a member, they must have
different criterea. Perhaps you can tell me what they are.

I am not antisocial, I just don't want to talk to some of the unpleasant people
on here.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:51:44 -0400
From:           	Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 06:47:53PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
>
> [in reference to helping produce Wikipedia and avoiding joining the
> "community" being mutually exclusive]
>
> > They aren't incompatible in the real world.
> >
>
> Actually . . . considering that being a regular editor of Wikipedia
> pretty much makes you a community member (albeit, in your case, a
> cantankerous, contentious, antisocial community member), I'm inclined to
> disagree with you.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
> I am not antisocial, I just don't want to talk to some of the unpleasant people
> on here.

Might I suggest unsubscribing then?

~~~~ Violet/Riga


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I'll work out my differences when the people when it is possible to do so,
but as they insist they are always right, they don't answer questions, they
only solution they are interested in is me conforming to their POV.

I am not after capturing flies.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:49:32 -0400
From:           	Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 04:03:25PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> > Free will and being able to control you sub conscious and it's needs are not
> > the same thing at all.
> >
> > The idea of lowering myself to the level of the average wikipedian is not
> > appealing. That most of them don't appear to be hear for Wikipedias stated
> > aims but for some other aims. I do not wish to join the "Wikipedia
> > community", I wish to help produce an encyclopedia, and seeing as one of
> > the most annoying features of wikipedians is their tendrncy to claim to
> > speak for everyone in the community when try to brow beat. I have no
> > intention of bolstering  the numbers they can claim to command/speak for.
> >
>
> If someone claims to speak for "the Wikipedia community", that is that
> person's failing, not yours.  Clearly, nobody speaks for every single
> individual person that makes up the "community".  You are, however,
> already effectively a member of that "community" by virtue of the fact
> that you make edits to articles in Wikipedia and complain on the mailing
> list about perceived slights.  It looks like whatever your problem is
> with interacting with other people, you've failed in avoiding it.
>
> You'll capture more flies with honey than vinegar.  If you simply A)
> politely bring your complaint to the attention of the person whose
> behavior you dislike and B) assume good faith for first assessments of
> the reasons for behavior, you'll get a lot farther toward getting "your
> way", and will get there much faster.  You should realize, though, that
> this doesn't mean that everyone in the world will automatically adopt
> your wishes as his or her life purpose.  Sometimes, people do things
> entirely for their own reasons and are unwilling to change that behavior
> just because someone else dislikes it.  Sometimes, you'll just have to
> accept the fact that other people have as much a right to control their
> own lives as you do yours.
>
> I haven't read the page(s) in question, but from what I've seen here in
> the mailing list it looks like someone's just keeping track of the edits
> of certain Wikipedians (defined here as "those who are repeat-editors
> with identifiable identities") for no malicious purpose.  Despite that,
> it seems, you object.  Considering that your actions in editing
> Wikipedia are public, it's difficult for me to sympathize with your
> desire to have someone chastised and to impose your will on someone
> else's behavior such that he or she can no longer view public actions in
> the manner of his or her choosing.  In particular, your simple
> unwillingness to ASK POLITELY that the person in question simply desist
> really boggles my mind.  Perhaps you never got the cooperation lecture
> from your parents/guardians when growing up.
>
> Granted, I could be misreading this entire set of circumstances based on
> my limited exposure to it.
>
>
> > The idea of losing my integrity and taking part in a ritual is unpleasant, and
> > as far as I can tell that's what this is.
> >
>
> What does being willing to try to work out differences rather than being
> an obstinate, stubborn problem child have to do with losing integrity?
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
When I have achieved what I want I may do that, but while you still continue
to act as the unpleasant manipulative person you are I feel required to stay,
to provide a counterpoint of honest to the likes of you.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:59:26 +0100
From:           	Violet/Riga <violetriga at gmail.com>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	Violet/Riga <violetriga at gmail.com>,
  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> > I am not antisocial, I just don't want to talk to some of the unpleasant people
> > on here.
>
> Might I suggest unsubscribing then?
>
> ~~~~ Violet/Riga
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I agree with Violet/Riga. While you are banned from editing Wikipedia you
don't have any reason to be on this list but to ultimately annoy people. As
David Gerard said earlier, your only line of contact now should be Jimbo,
and the mailing list doesn't just go to Jimbo, but everyone else who has
subscribed to discuss issues other than.. Well, whatever your whinging about
at present.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Violet/Riga" <violetriga at gmail.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

> I am not antisocial, I just don't want to talk to some of the unpleasant
people
> on here.

Might I suggest unsubscribing then?

~~~~ Violet/Riga
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On the contrary, I have every reason to be here on this list. to deal with
dishonest people like Violet and Matt. It is others on this system who have
no reason to be here, as they are not interested in producing an
encyclopedia but a social club for the inadequate.

From:           	"David 'DJ' Hedley" <spyders at btinternet.com>
To:             	"Violet/Riga" <violetriga at gmail.com>,
  	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:03:38 +0100
Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> I agree with Violet/Riga. While you are banned from editing Wikipedia you
> don't have any reason to be on this list but to ultimately annoy people. As
> David Gerard said earlier, your only line of contact now should be Jimbo,
> and the mailing list doesn't just go to Jimbo, but everyone else who has
> subscribed to discuss issues other than.. Well, whatever your whinging about
> at present.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Violet/Riga" <violetriga at gmail.com>
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 6:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
>
>
> > I am not antisocial, I just don't want to talk to some of the unpleasant
> people
> > on here.
>
> Might I suggest unsubscribing then?
>
> ~~~~ Violet/Riga
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Note the manipulative use of language by Chad.
Note that he expand my comments to cover everyone on the list.
Note his misrepresentation of my POV.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:03:14 -0400
From:           	Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com>
To:             	Violet/Riga <violetriga at gmail.com>,
  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 06:59:26PM +0100, Violet/Riga wrote:
> > > I am not antisocial, I just don't want to talk to some of the unpleasant people
> > > on here.
> >
> > Might I suggest unsubscribing then?
> >
>
> Certainly, the conflict between his claimed distaste for interacting
> with [us/them] and his continued posting to this list does puzzle me.
> This is especially the case considering the fact that the complaint that
> originally brought him to this list seems to consist of "I don't like
> the fact that someone is reading what I'm writing in a public venue, and
> I'm unwilling to ask him/her to stop.  I'd really like someone else to
> stop him/her for me.  In the meantime, I'm going to do my level best to
> insult the people of whom I request assistance."
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Bryan Derksen

body:
sannse wrote:

> 'Course, it's not the first time it's been mistaken for the real thing
> - there was the famous Harry Potter flap...
>
> http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.htm

And also the time the newspaper _/Beijing Evening News_/ (circulation
1.25 million) reported as fact the Onion story about how Congress was
threatening to leave Washington DC for another city if they didn't build
a new Capitol building with a retractable dome.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/6/7/41557/70467
http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,53048,00.html


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Lars Aronsson wrote:
>
>>He started it as a test, and it snowballed out of control. Nobody
>>could predict its popularity.  Larry to me seems like a hesitant
>>Martin Luther who says "wait, I didn't want to start a new church,
>>only reform the old one!"  But nobody wants to wait.
>
> The original idea for a wiki for Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry,
> but by Jeremy Rosenfeld.

Heh. Imagine:

Jimbo: "OK, guys. What should we call our new project?"
Larry Sanger: "How about 'Wikipedia'?"
Jimbo: "That sounds cool. But how is it going to work?"
Jeremy Rosenfeld: "I have an idea! Let's use a wiki!"
Jimbo: "Brilliant! Jeremy, you're the man!"
Larry Sanger: "But it was *my* idea!"

...


from_name: Matt R

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Bradley, his contribs list,
	and feeding the "problem user"

body:
Hi list,

--- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> I would like to request the following page be deleted
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> things I have created.

Not quite. This page is a list of the pages [[User:Irate]] (aka John Bradley)
edited (in his last 500 edits) before he was banned. I created it [1] to keep
an eye out in case he attempted to circumvent his ban (using the "related
changes" tool, of course). I have some evidence this vigilence may be
necessary; Bradley has said on this mailing list:

   "I have started the WLF and the PFLW in an attempt to reverse the
perversion of the system introduced by the ArbComm and various admins.
Who are basically so up tight because they have a very limited ability to
control Wikipedia, what with DHCP etc."

And more explicitly in private email to myself:

   "As I've said before to the arbcomm they do not have the ability to block
me,
as I currently via the company VPN have 10+ IP access points on 3 continents. I
also have access to a spell checker."

Currently, I have no intention of deleting this page, although I might consider
it if someone (other than Bradley, of course) asked me politely.

My advice to everyone is simply to ignore this user. I've had no luck engaging
him even after exchanging several emails. You're welcome to try, of course, but
I believe you'd be wasting your time in his case. He's banned for three months,
so he's not a current problem.

-- Matt
[[User:Matt Crypto]]

[1] Don't worry, 5 minutes with a script -- not by hand!

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
--- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> He is stalking. I have been nformed that keepingtrack of users is bad form,
> atleast if I do it.

OK, I promised myself that I'd ignore you, but this was so silly I had to
reply...how could I possibly be keeping track of your actions on Wikipedia if
you're *banned*? You don't have any actions on Wikipedia! How on earth can I be
"stalking" a user who is prohibited from editing?

Seriously, John, there comes a time in some disputes to simply walk away and
get some perspective. Maybe now is that time?

-- Matt
[[User:Matt Crypto]]

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


body:
Matt,

Just because you read bad things into everything doesn't mean it is actually
what is going on, I'am justpointing out the powerlessness of arbcomm in the
real world and why they are so tetchy.

You have all the answers you've needed you even seemed to have got it at
one point but you'd forgetten in 10 secs.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:24:34 +0100 (BST)
From:           	Matt R <matt_crypto at yahoo.co.uk>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	[WikiEN-l] Bradley, his contribs list,
	and feeding the "problem user"
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> Hi list,
>
> --- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> > I would like to request the following page be deleted
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> > things I have created.
>
> Not quite. This page is a list of the pages [[User:Irate]] (aka John Bradley)
> edited (in his last 500 edits) before he was banned. I created it [1] to keep
> an eye out in case he attempted to circumvent his ban (using the "related
> changes" tool, of course). I have some evidence this vigilence may be
> necessary; Bradley has said on this mailing list:
>
>    "I have started the WLF and the PFLW in an attempt to reverse the
> perversion of the system introduced by the ArbComm and various admins.
> Who are basically so up tight because they have a very limited ability to
> control Wikipedia, what with DHCP etc."
>
> And more explicitly in private email to myself:
>
>    "As I've said before to the arbcomm they do not have the ability to block
> me,
> as I currently via the company VPN have 10+ IP access points on 3 continents. I
> also have access to a spell checker."
>
> Currently, I have no intention of deleting this page, although I might consider
> it if someone (other than Bradley, of course) asked me politely.
>
> My advice to everyone is simply to ignore this user. I've had no luck engaging
> him even after exchanging several emails. You're welcome to try, of course, but
> I believe you'd be wasting your time in his case. He's banned for three months,
> so he's not a current problem.
>
> -- Matt
> [[User:Matt Crypto]]
>
> [1] Don't worry, 5 minutes with a script -- not by hand!
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Page delete request.

body:
and how will not stop the document from being there or me from knowing
that it is there will it.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:44:58 -0700 (PDT)
From:           	Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Page delete request.
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley wrote:
> > So in other words I do have to put up with it.
>
> You don't have to put up with anything.  You can find
> other projects to work on.
>
> RickK
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I don't count defending myself as involvment the kind of involment in the
community that is being talked about.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:10:47 -0400
From:           	Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 07:08:58PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> > On the contrary, I have every reason to be here on this list. to deal with
> > dishonest people like Violet and Matt. It is others on this system who have
> > no reason to be here, as they are not interested in producing an
> > encyclopedia but a social club for the inadequate.
> >
>
> I thought you said you wanted to avoid community involvement so that you
> wouldn't have to "deal with" such people.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: geni

body:
On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> Matt,
>
> Just because you read bad things into everything doesn't mean it is actually
> what is going on, I'am justpointing out the powerlessness of arbcomm in the
> real world and why they are so tetchy.

We've delt with people who have tried to use multiple IPs in the past.
it's not a problem

--
geni


from_name: Dori

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload-Problems in Version 1.4.0 (German)

body:
On 4/24/05, Karl-Otto Kirst <post at karl-kirst.de> wrote:
>
> Hallo,
>
> in our ZUM-Wiki we can't make uploads. Trying do make an upload, we get
> the
> following message:
> ---
> Interner Fehler
> ...
> Konnte Datei "/var/tmp/phpt7qzxs" nicht nach
> "/htdocs/data/zum/wiki/images/0/0d/Sui.jpg" kopieren.
>

Check that all the necessary variables/aliases are pointing to the right
directory.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I am against what I do being singled out. The information will be available
under the User Contributions list anyway.

If I was trying for victimhood, I'd be a lot quieter.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:18:06 -0400
From:           	Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 07:12:19PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> > Note the manipulative use of language by Chad.
> > Note that he expand my comments to cover everyone on the list.
> > Note his misrepresentation of my POV.
> >
>
> Note your ongoing attempt to alienate everyone.
>
> If something was misrepresented, it was by accident.  Perhaps you would
> find it more productive to educate people in their errors, rather than
> to simply accuse them of being malicious.
>
> By the way, playing the "victim card" tends to reduce sympathy in one's
> position rather than increase it, at least among people whose sympathy
> is worth anything.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Karl-Otto Kirst

subject: [Wikitech-l] Link from Logo to URL

body:
Hallo,

I'v just subscribed to this list. And I need help with a specific problem in
the ZUM-Wiki (www.zum.de/wiki).

We want to put a link to http://www.zum.de behind the Logo of our Wiki,
which by default leads always back to the mainpage.

We are interested in this solution, because the ZUM-Wiki is part of the ZUM
project.

I would be very pleased, if someone could give me an idea how to solve the
named problem.

Kindly regards

Karl Kirst

--------------------------------------
post at karl-kirst.de

www.karl-kirst.de / www.schule-und-internet.de

Mitarbeit am ZUM-Wiki: www.zum.de/wiki
--------------------------------------


body:
Hallo,

in our ZUM-Wiki we can't make uploads. Trying do make an upload, we get the
following message:
---
Interner Fehler
...
Konnte Datei "/var/tmp/phpt7qzxs" nicht nach
"/htdocs/data/zum/wiki/images/0/0d/Sui.jpg" kopieren.
---

Before we made an update from version 1.3.6 to version 1.4.0, we didn't have
any problems with uploads.

Is there any know bug in version 1.4.0, which may cause ower problem?

I would be pleased for any help to ower problem.

Best regards
Karl Kirst

--------------------------------------
post at karl-kirst.de

www.karl-kirst.de / www.schule-und-internet.de

Mitarbeit am ZUM-Wiki: www.zum.de/wiki
--------------------------------------


from_name: Michael P. Hopcroft

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fidning out why an article is deleted

body:
Pardon me for the newbie question.

I have just had an article on Con suites apparently deleted. Another
article on the band Uffington Horse is in danger of deletion, but at
least in this case it was stated why. What i would like to know is if
there was a way to find out why specific articles were deleted so that
corrections can possibly be made.

Thsi is especially useful as far as articles on fandom topics (such as
the article on con suites, which are rooms at science fiction
conventions where free food and drink is served to participants) could
easily be viewed as irrelevant by non-fans and deleted needlessly or
reflexively.

Michael Hopcroft


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On 4/24/05, Karl-Otto Kirst <post at karl-kirst.de> wrote:
> ---
> Interner Fehler
> ...
> Konnte Datei "/var/tmp/phpt7qzxs" nicht nach
> "/htdocs/data/zum/wiki/images/0/0d/Sui.jpg" kopieren.
> ---
>
> Before we made an update from version 1.3.6 to version 1.4.0, we didn't have
> any problems with uploads.

Hm, it seems to be a permissions problem, but if it worked fine before
that could only be because you've accidentally reset the permissions
on the "images" directory. If that's not it, I'll leave it to someone
who might know better.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
Joseph Reagle wrote:
>
> Given the latest fire-storm on questions of authority and peer review, this
> might make some smile! :):)
>
> http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4116&n=3

The article is a public humiliation of a hard-working 10-year-old
student, and condones the bullying he receives from classmates. That
kind of story makes you smile?


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Different community dynamics for this
	Mediterranian Wikipedia

body:
Faraaz Damji wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>>I imagine that this is the ideal environment for a Wikipedia, because
>>it is easier to solve problems, I think, when you know all the people
>>and can discuss issues in person over a latte.
>
> Not only that, but you're probably not going to have too many personal
> attacks.  I'd probably expect a much kinder environment with a plethora
> of WikiLove prancing happily in the fields ;)

Hm. I, on the other hand, am afraid that if a close circle of friends
does all the work on one whole Wikipedia, it may end up glaringly POV.


body:
On 4/24/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Joseph Reagle wrote:
> >
> > Given the latest fire-storm on questions of authority and peer review, this
> > might make some smile! :):)
> >
> > http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4116&n=3
>
> The article is a public humiliation of a hard-working 10-year-old
> student, and condones the bullying he receives from classmates. That
> kind of story makes you smile?

I'm trying to decide whether you're being ironic, or you don't get irony.

I guess it could just be that you think the piece misses its target -
which I presume is the concept of Peer Review, coupled with the idea
of "preparing" children for adult life by submitting to the kind of
process they will find there. As far as I know, The Onion's readers
are not primarily in the "5th-grade" age range, so it is presumably
meant to be read with a certain degree of perspective, so I don't
think it's "condoning" anything.

And just in case: you do realise it's fiction, don't you. ;)

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Conference report from South Africa

body:
Angela wrote:
>
>     * Spoken Wikipedia by cell phone. Many areas of Africa have high
> cell phone coverage with access to SMS. Teemu Leinonen of the
> University of Art and Design Helsinki is working on a project to allow
> a user to send an SMS with the article title to a phone number. A few
> seconds later, they get a call on their cell phone with a (usually
> machine-generated) spoken version of the article they requested.

Heh! All the more incentive to get more people to participate in
[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia]] (shameless plug)! Nobody
really wants machine-generated spoken versions when a real human-spoken
version is available. :)

>     * Wikibooks/Wikiversity/E-learning. With the price of textbooks
> much higher in South Africa than in developed countriesfree textbooks
> are of extreme importance, and Wikibooks could provide the content
> needed for initiatives to deliver this.

This is assuming that the larger part of the cost of textbooks is
copyright licenses. I would imagine that it is instead the production
costs of actual books, and obviously free content won't help that.

Timwi


body:
Rowan Collins wrote:
> On 4/24/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Joseph Reagle wrote:
>>
>>> Given the latest fire-storm on questions of authority and peer
>>> review, this might make some smile! :):)
>>>
>>> http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4116&n=3
>>
>> The article is a public humiliation of a hard-working 10-year-old
>> student, and condones the bullying he receives from classmates.
>> That kind of story makes you smile?
>
> And just in case: you do realise it's fiction, don't you. ;)

Where does it say that? The site passes itself off as a "news source",
so I don't think it was unreasonable of me to think it was real.

> As far as I know, The Onion's readers are not primarily in the
> "5th-grade" age range

I'm sure The Onion's readers are not *primarily* Jews, either, so is it
okay for The Onion to be anti-Semitic?

Timwi


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fact check/Copyediting request

body:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Michael P. Hopcroft wrote:

> I was wondering if someone could do soem fact-checking, copyediting and
> expansion for me on the following new articles:
>
Inasmuch as these articles touch upon my home town, I can't help but
respond; although, if you are looking for information about these subjects
in general, your best first stop would be [[Wikipedia:Reference Desk]].

> Goldschmidt Sex Scandal

Are you aware that there is already an article [[Neil Goldschmidt]] which
discusses this part of his life?

> Portand Tribune
> Kendra James
> Dwight Jaynes
> Phil Sanford
> J.E. Clark

I see that you started these articles. While I don't know if time will
prove them noteworthy of Wikipedia, I'm glad to see that one more person
contributing to Wikipedia is interested in Oregon subjects.

BTW, I'm amazed that you left out perhaps Bud Clark's best known act: as
the model for the "Expose yourself to Art" poster. I believe this makes
him more than just another mayor of a medium-sized city.
>
> I need additional ifnromation for the article on Sam Adams (Oeegon
> Poltiican), which is essentially a stub, and to expand the article on
> Vera Katz.
>
As I understand it, the way Wikipedia works is that you write an article
with as much as you know about the subject. Then you wait, either adding
to your research, or hoping that someone else does. While in a few cases
this leads to conflicts over the content or the wording of the article,
most of the time it actually works, attracting interest & more information.

Unfortunately, posting requests like you did to this mail list won't work
most of the time. As far as I know, I'm the only subscriber to this list
who lives in Oregon; many -- if not a majority -- live outside of the U.S.,
& are likely to assume Portland, Oregon is a suburb of Los Angeles, if
they think about my home town at all. And at the moment, I'm up to my
elbows in research in a far different area (I just submitted 20-odd articles
on medieval rulers of Ethiopia). However, there are about a half-dozen
regular editors on Wikipedia who do work on Oregon-related topics, & if
you look on the history pages of Articles like [[Portland, Oregon]], you're
likely to find them. Perhaps some of them can help you with this.

In my experience, given enough time all articles on Wikipedia grow; some
just take longer than others.

Geoff


from_name: sannse

body:
Chad Perrin wrote:

>>>And just in case: you do realise it's fiction, don't you. ;)
>>
>>Where does it say that? The site passes itself off as a "news source",
>>so I don't think it was unreasonable of me to think it was real.
>>
>
>
> Err . . . The Onion is satire.  It doesn't seriously purport to be a
> "news source" in the normal sense.  Its stories are intended to be taken
> as satirical treatments of the news, and as far as I'm aware none of its
> stories have ever been true.
>

'Course, it's not the first time it's been mistaken for the real thing -
there was the famous Harry Potter flap...

http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.htm

--sannse


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Timwi wrote:

>> And just in case: you do realise it's fiction, don't you. ;)
>
>Where does it say that? The site passes itself off as a "news source",
>so I don't think it was unreasonable of me to think it was real.

Why not, these headlines are all over CNN, you know:

"New Tech-Support Caste Arises In India"
"Pope Admits: "God Ain't Said Shit To Me""

:-))

Alfio


from_name: Jack Lutz

body:
> I have just had an article on Con suites apparently deleted. Another
> article on the band Uffington Horse is in danger of deletion, but at
> least in this case it was stated why. What i would like to know is if
> there was a way to find out why specific articles were deleted so that
> corrections can possibly be made.

Deletion requests should be listed at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/PAGE, though I
don't see anything for "Con suite", "Con suites", or "Uffington Horse".


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
John Bradley (john at ontobus.co.uk) [050424 23:50]:

> I am not interested in being the firend of anyone here, it is simply try to get
> you to act in a manner which shows the slightest hint of integrity.

We have integrity. You lack perception or the faintest self-insight.

You keep randomly harassing me on IRC with "yu owe me explnation". You've
had explanations aplenty and you just don't take them in. You seem
incapable of understanding that you are banned from editing because of your
own actions. Until you understand that, there's no hope for you on
Wikipedia.

- d.


body:
Charles Matthews wrote:

> Michael P. Hopcroft wrote
>
>> Pardon me for the newbie question.
>
>
> Not at all.
>
>> I have just had an article on Con suites apparently deleted.
>
>
> No idea what has happened to this. [[Consuite]] from 2004 exists.
> There are deletion logs but without the exact title I'm not able to
> help further.
>
> It is actually quite possible that, at times when the servers are
> overloaded, some submissions are lost and never even added to the
> database. I would always keep a text copy until I knew the particular
> edit had been successful.
>
>> Another article on the band Uffington Horse is in danger of deletion,
>> but at least in this case it was stated why.
>
>
> [[Uffington Horse (band)]] has had one of our more polite tags added.
> You need to establish notability of the band by expanding this.
>
Hopefully I have done so to your satisfaction. You or someone also said
that the article on the Goldschmidt Sex Scandal should be merged with
that on Goldschmidt tiself. Since the article is on the effects that the
revelation of the scnadal had on the relationship between portland media
and public figures, I respectfully disagree.

>
> There are two classes of formalised deletions: speedy deletions
> handled by admins, and deletions through [[WP:VfD]], our sanitary
> arrangement. VfD (votes for deletion) is a formalised process allowing
> for full debate and reply. Speedies are supposed to be tightly
> constrained; in practice the criteria get pushed quite hard, but any
> admin should be willing to reconsider a speedy deletion.  Other than
> that, a few categories get deleted on sight (graffiti, teenager
> prattle, that kind of thing).
>
Is there an admin I can e-mail directyl if I have concerns about one of
my articles?


body:
On 4/24/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> > And just in case: you do realise it's fiction, don't you. ;)
>
> Where does it say that? The site passes itself off as a "news source",
> so I don't think it was unreasonable of me to think it was real.

Well, had the seed of doubt, or even a questing mind's wish to know
"who the bleep are these people?", led you to click the logo to bring
you to the front page, you would have found that this week's "Top
Story" is "Pope Emerges From Chrysalis A Beautiful Butterfly".

Tell me that you believe *that* story is real, and I really will be worried. :D

> > As far as I know, The Onion's readers are not primarily in the
> > "5th-grade" age range
>
> I'm sure The Onion's readers are not *primarily* Jews, either, so is it
> okay for The Onion to be anti-Semitic?

Well, that wasn't really what I was trying to say - I was responding
to a claim that they were "condoning bullying", not one that they were
being "anti-5th-grade". The equivalent would therefore be something
more like "The Onion's readers aren't primarily non-Jewish caucasians"
- those being the people that it would matter if the Onion *condoned*
anti-semitism. It's a very crude equivalence, but the point is that if
the piece *were* aimed at 5th-graders, there would be a worry that,
not seeing the irony, they would take it as support for such
behaviour. I'm not convinced they would, but I don't think they'd be
reading it anyway.

Meanwhile, I would tend to say it was at worst non-comittal on the
issue of bullying - if taken literally, it fails to criticise the
comments, but doesn't give them credence beyond reporting them. If
taken as a satire on genuine Peer Review processes, the comments can
be taken as stinging parodies, and implicitly a thorough rebuke of the
all-too-easy habit of mixing personal attacks up with genuine
criticisms.

It's always an interesting question with irony and satire - how far
*can* you push the boundaries of criticism without becoming
hypocritical - hence the scandal surrounding the UK television series
"Brass Eye" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_Eye) Just thought
I'd drop that one in... :)

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki with PHP5

body:
Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:
> Hello there!
>
> Does MediaWiki work correctly with PHP5?

There is one bug in 1.4.2 which may sometimes break Recentchanges. The
fix will be in the 1.4.3 bugfix release, or you can patch it in:

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-cvs/2005-April/007947.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050425/0b0ab113/attachment.pgp>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
John Bradley (john at ontobus.co.uk) [050425 01:42]:

> I note you took the personal attacks out of order, in fact you haven't actually
> dealt with the first.

If you don't like an Arbitration Committee decision, your line of appeal is
to Jimbo. Don't contact me again.

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Why does wikipedia need activeX?

body:
Jaap van Ganswijk wrote:
> I get a popup window with 'Do you want to allow
> software such as ActiveX controls and plug-ins
> to run?'
>
> This mainly seems to be necessary to show the
> top left logo to be shown.
>
> Wouldn't it be better for an open source standards
> based site not to require MS-dependent technology?

Install an open source standards-based browser like Firefox and you'll
be happier. ;)

Microsoft's leading-edge technology requires a funky DirectX filter hack
to display alpha-transparent PNG images correctly. In some
configurations this triggers an ActiveX warning. Go figure.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050425/efd763d4/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Ronald Chmara

body:
On Apr 24, 2005, at 2:15 PM, Timwi wrote:
> Rowan Collins wrote:
>> On 4/24/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>>> Joseph Reagle wrote:
>>>> Given the latest fire-storm on questions of authority and peer
>>>> review, this might make some smile! :):)
>>>> http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4116&n=3
>>> The article is a public humiliation of a hard-working 10-year-old
>>> student, and condones the bullying he receives from classmates.
>>> That kind of story makes you smile?

Adults are humiliated with peer-review all the time....

>> And just in case: you do realise it's fiction, don't you. ;)
> Where does it say that? The site passes itself off as a "news source",
> so I don't think it was unreasonable of me to think it was real.

Uhm, FOX news plays itself as "real", too. Do you believe them, as well?

>> As far as I know, The Onion's readers are not primarily in the
>> "5th-grade" age range
> I'm sure The Onion's readers are not *primarily* Jews, either, so is it
> okay for The Onion to be anti-Semitic?

Did I miss something? Was something in the onion report anti-Semitic?

-Bop


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Date Formats

body:
James R. Johnson wrote:
>             I was wondering if it were possible to have a user account
> setting where I set the date to either mm-dd-yyyy or dd/mm/yyyy, and the
> dates within articles show up that way across the wiki.  Some prefer one
> way, others prefer the other way.

Go to your preferences, click the "Date format" tab, and select your
preferred format.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20050425/cb12fdcf/attachment.pgp


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki with PHP5

body:
Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:
> After I downloaded last version of MediaWiki I didn't see there
> something like mysqli_... functions. How it works with mysql?

With the normal mysql module, same as in PHP 4.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050425/14677a18/attachment.pgp>


body:
On Apr 25, 2005, at 5:26 AM, Andy Rabagliati wrote:
> There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
> * Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like CamelCase
> :-)
> * Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
>   someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)

Wikipedia is not paper. Or one tape deck.

Thus, one word, say "aluminium" could have several pronunciation
entries.

-Bop


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] OTRS problem

body:
The board queue is overwhelmed with SPAM.  Would it be possible to
route mail to the otrs board queue through spamassassin first, with the
parameters set fairly aggressively?

The ideal solution might involve an autoresponder as well.  If Spam
assassin thinks something to that queue is spam, we autorespond to warn
the person that we've discarded it and please try again (perhaps by
sending it directly to me with wikipedia in the subject line for example).

--Jimbo


list: foundation-l

from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Important AND urgent

body:
On 4/25/05, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:

> 1) Now Commons is nominated - successfully?
> 2) If so, is it too early to inform in other places, like
> meta:Wikimedia News, at "Latest news" on WMF Home, or Wikimedia:Our
> projects?

We should wait until they announce it officially before we do. Nothing
regarding who has won or who is getting an honorary mention has been
made public yet. Anthere's email was just referring to the fact that
we applied for this, not that we were actually successful in getting
anything.

Angela.


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Important AND urgent


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] News about local chapters

body:
Hi

Since we are talking about news...  I realise one has not been announced.

Last saturday, a irl/irc meeting took place for the french chapter. It
was the opportunity to elect a new board (the first board was only
planned to last 6 months, roughly the time for setting up the chapter).

The members of the new chapter are

     * Anthere
     * Jastrow
     * Meanos,
     * notafish
     * Ryo
     * Sam Hocevar
     * Shaihulud
     * Soufron
     * Yann

Ryo (Nicolas Weeger) stays president
Shaihulud (Camille Constant) stays treasurer
Jastrow (Marie-Lan Nguyen) is now the secretary

Note : the french board enjoys 3 ladies now.

I think this is a good board, balanced, with plenty of different
personalities, opinions and skills. So, I expect it will do a good work.

Anthere


from_name: Charles Matthews

body:
Michael P. Hopcroft wrote

> Pardon me for the newbie question.

Not at all.

> I have just had an article on Con suites apparently deleted.

No idea what has happened to this. [[Consuite]] from 2004 exists. There are
deletion logs but without the exact title I'm not able to help further.

It is actually quite possible that, at times when the servers are
overloaded, some submissions are lost and never even added to the database.
I would always keep a text copy until I knew the particular edit had been
successful.

>Another article on the band Uffington Horse is in danger of deletion, but
>at least in this case it was stated why.

[[Uffington Horse (band)]] has had one of our more polite tags added.  You
need to establish notability of the band by expanding this.

>What i would like to know is if there was a way to find out why specific
>articles were deleted so that corrections can possibly be made.

> Thsi is especially useful as far as articles on fandom topics (such as the
> article on con suites, which are rooms at science fiction conventions
> where free food and drink is served to participants) could easily be
> viewed as irrelevant by non-fans and deleted needlessly or reflexively.

There are two classes of formalised deletions: speedy deletions handled by
admins, and deletions through [[WP:VfD]], our sanitary arrangement. VfD
(votes for deletion) is a formalised process allowing for full debate and
reply. Speedies are supposed to be tightly constrained; in practice the
criteria get pushed quite hard, but any admin should be willing to
reconsider a speedy deletion.  Other than that, a few categories get deleted
on sight (graffiti, teenager prattle, that kind of thing).

With 1000 new pages a day we have to delete a fair number of pages.  Things
do go wrong in a few cases.

Charles


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: News about local chapters

body:
This reminds me....

News are announced (ie, carved in stone for eternity) here :
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home

If you wish to help with translation of the news, please join here :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/quick_translation#WMF_.22Latest_News.22_2005-04-16_update

Thanks

Anthere a ?crit:
> Hi
>
> Since we are talking about news...  I realise one has not been announced.
>
> Last saturday, a irl/irc meeting took place for the french chapter. It
> was the opportunity to elect a new board (the first board was only
> planned to last 6 months, roughly the time for setting up the chapter).
>
> The members of the new chapter are
>
>     * Anthere
>     * Jastrow
>     * Meanos,
>     * notafish
>     * Ryo
>     * Sam Hocevar
>     * Shaihulud
>     * Soufron
>     * Yann
>
>
> Ryo (Nicolas Weeger) stays president
> Shaihulud (Camille Constant) stays treasurer
> Jastrow (Marie-Lan Nguyen) is now the secretary
>
> Note : the french board enjoys 3 ladies now.
>
> I think this is a good board, balanced, with plenty of different
> personalities, opinions and skills. So, I expect it will do a good work.
>
>
> Anthere


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] version 1.5 vs. 1.4

body:
Sabine Cretella wrote:
> Hi, I need to install a new wiki - now I am wondering what I should do -
> Install 1.5 and live for now with some bugs (I will be the one to create
> most of the pages - it is quite unlikely that there will be many
> contributors) or install 1.4.

Unless you're willing to put up with a lot, you should probably install
the current 1.4 stable release.

We have not yet released a beta test version of 1.5, and database
structure changes are still being made. A stable release of 1.5 is
currently scheduled for June 1.

> Which difficulties do I encounter when updating from 1.4 to 1.5 and
> which when starting with 1.5 now and then updating to a more stable
> version?

In theory, the upgrade from 1.4 to 1.5 should be automated and
relatively clean.

If you track the current development and future beta code, you might
have to do more manual clean-up and fixing, and can fully expect to have
things not working and possible data loss in the meantime.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050425/a11db994/attachment.pgp>


body:
Timwi wrote:
> This is assuming that the larger part of the cost of textbooks is
> copyright licenses. I would imagine that it is instead the production
> costs of actual books, and obviously free content won't help that.

I agree that it would be very helpful to us to have a better
understanding of the tradeoffs but I also wanted to point out that it's
a bit more complex than just copyright license + cost of production here.

Our work is free-as-in-beer but also free-as-in-speech.  So the point is
not _just_ that a potential producer of paper texts saves on the cost of
copyright licensing but also....

1. They don't need to get permission from anyone at all, they can just
get started in any small and tiny way they see fit (or in any large and
mass-produced way they see fit)

2. There can be many competitors in a market ecosystem of provision of
content, rather than a single licensee attempting to capture some
monopoly rents

--Jimbo


body:
"Matt R" wrote

> And more explicitly in private email to myself:
>
>   "As I've said before to the arbcomm they do not have the ability to
> block
> me,
> as I currently via the company VPN have 10+ IP access points on 3
> continents. I
> also have access to a spell checker."
>
> Currently, I have no intention of deleting this page, although I might
> consider
> it if someone (other than Bradley, of course) asked me politely.

The threat to spell-check seems empty.

Charles


body:
Michael P. Hopcroft wrote

>You or someone also said that the article on the Goldschmidt Sex Scandal
>should be merged with that on Goldschmidt tiself. Since the article is on
>the effects that the revelation of the scnadal had on the relationship
>between portland media and public figures, I respectfully disagree.

Take it up on the talk page and put your case.

> Is there an admin I can e-mail directyl if I have concerns about one of my
> articles?

You can interact with admins (of whom there are hundreds) by messages on
their use talk pages; or by email if they have supplied an address (go to
user page and look for the email link).  Using user talk for discussions on
content is usual and transparent.

Charles


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Distributing fonts

body:
That's called "font embedding". I'm pretty sure it works in Firefox too.

As for the Gothic font, it probably wasn't an intentional result. At
the Gothic Wikipedia, there are multiple fonts listed. to which I
should eventually add MPH 2B Damase.

Mark

On 25/04/05, James R. Johnson <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> In internet explorer, you can force the browser to display a certain font
> without having it on the user's computer.  It's somewhere in the HTML code,
> but I could never figure that part out. :(
>
> James
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Saratxaga
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 11:37 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Distributing fonts
>
> Kaixo!
>
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:30:51PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:
>
> > If we have a free TTF file to download from the web somewhere, link's
> > fine. If not, I see no reason *not* to upload and offer one. Sure
> > haven't heard one in the previous postings.
>
> Ah, that is quite a different thing.
>
> However, it would still be better to put it somewhere else (along other
> fonts for example; that would reach more people)
>
> > Come on, where's the problem? We're offering 4-5 *GB* with pictures to
> > download for en already. And you say we're not equipped to serve a
> > single TTF file?
>
> I had read it as if the idea was to frentically upload all kind of fonts
> available.
> Indeed one font is not very much; but the real point is that it is not
> the right place.
> The images are big, but they illustrate the articles; they are part of
> the information in the articles.
>
> A font, I don't see how it could be a part of the article (a font file
> cannot be directly usable from the web pages; it has to be downloaded
> and installed first; that is different to images, sound and video that
> can be directly seen/heard).
>
> A font file could be a part of the article of an article about
> typography or computer typography; but as it won't be directly usable
> from the web browser, probably it would be useless anyway.
>
> Another thing would be a font like a tool to create the infrastructure
> (eg, to standardize on the typography of the logos etc); such
> font-as-a-tool could indeed have its place in meta:
>
> --
> Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
> Pablo Saratxaga
>
> http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/          PGP Key available, key ID:
> 0xD9B85466
> [you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or
> Esperanto]
> [min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Timwi wrote:
>
>
>>This is assuming that the larger part of the cost of textbooks is
>>copyright licenses. I would imagine that it is instead the production
>>costs of actual books, and obviously free content won't help that.
>>
>>
>I agree that it would be very helpful to us to have a better
>understanding of the tradeoffs but I also wanted to point out that it's
>a bit more complex than just copyright license + cost of production here.
>
>Our work is free-as-in-beer but also free-as-in-speech.  So the point is
>not _just_ that a potential producer of paper texts saves on the cost of
>copyright licensing but also....
>
>1. They don't need to get permission from anyone at all, they can just
>get started in any small and tiny way they see fit (or in any large and
>mass-produced way they see fit)
>
>2. There can be many competitors in a market ecosystem of provision of
>content, rather than a single licensee attempting to capture some
>monopoly rents
>
>
I think that we are already well on the way to dealing with the
copyright issues.  The free-as-in-speech will probably need to be dealt
with one jurisdiction at a time.

To-day's off-the-shelf Microsoft product does not come with the huge
array of manuals that would have come with its ten-year old
counterpart.  Instead we need to make do with electronic files that are
nowhere near as useful as a book that you can hold in your hand and leaf
through.  Reducing production costs has a clear effect on the Microsoft
bottom line.

Whether we or a downstream user converts the material to a paper product
the production costs will always be there.  Simply clarifying
permissions is still a long way from getting the material to those who
need it most.  Any producer will at least want to see its costs covered.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Another reason not to say the p-word: It will invoke the wrath of
Jimmy Wales for using "porn" and "Wikipedia" in the same e-mail.

Bjarte, my suggestion is to add a reverse-filter so that all e-mails
from Wikipedia-l are safe.

Anyhow back to my point. Wikipedia is somehow related to Bomis
historically, right? This is a well-established fact, no? It says it
pretty much everywhere.

Jimbo himself admits that Bomis deals in porn (although it accounts
for less than 10% of their revenue), and people who are having
troubles finding the actual porn as opposed to just the Babe Report
are advised to go to http://premium.bomis.com (a pay site).

Thus, I don't see where he gets the idea that the things people are
saying are wrong. And why did he just say "you're wrong" instead of
explaining, even after Ant asked him for an explanation? He has sent
me increasingly rude private e-mails as well rather than discuss it
calmly on the list.

Mark

On 25/04/05, Bjarte S?rensen <bjarte.sorensen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/25/05, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> > Timwi wrote:
> >
> > >Heh. Imagine:
> > >
> > >Jimbo: "OK, guys. What should we call our new project?"
> > >Larry Sanger: "How about 'Wikipedia'?"
> > >Jimbo: "That sounds cool. But how is it going to work?"
> > >Jeremy Rosenfeld: "I have an idea! Let's use a wiki!"
> > >Jimbo: "Brilliant! Jeremy, you're the man!"
> > >Larry Sanger: "But it was *my* idea!"
> > >
> > >
> > Can we work a secret porn business into the script somehow? =]
> >
> > -Mark
>
> Shhh, don't say the p-word! Gmail filtered your e-mail as spam! Maybe
> it'll start doing the same with the rest of wikipedia-l mails once it
> sees the connection ...
>
> Bjarte Sorensen
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


body:
Ronald Chmara wrote:

> On Apr 25, 2005, at 5:26 AM, Andy Rabagliati wrote:
>
>> There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
>> * Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like
>> CamelCase :-)
>> * Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
>>   someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)
>
> Wikipedia is not paper. Or one tape deck.
>
> Thus, one word, say "aluminium" could have several pronunciation entries.

That only helps the person using the term.  It's a one-way feature.  The
person hearing the term used in another dialect will still have no idea
what is being said.  How can he transcribe anything which is
unintelligible to him?

Ec