from_name: Catherine Munro

body:
>>Yeah, he said it doesn't seem to be working, and it's not open. So
>>when is this policy change going to be reverted?
>
>A good question. There seems to be a slight majority in favor of
>repealing that change (if I may be permitted to make a totally
>unscientific and biased estimate) on this list.
>
>That said, I think most are either waiting for the year (and more
>importantly, [[Eternal September|September]]) to end, to turn over a
>fresh lear; or they are waiting for the long promised statistical
>analyses.
>
>~maru

If we do decide to turn it off, perhaps we should decide ahead of time what
statistics we'd like to watch, and collect them for a month or two ahead of
time.  Things like current rate of new article creation, rate of speedy
deletes, average number of people doing new pages patrol per day,
stress-level of new pages patrollers....  ;)

If we do that this time, we'll have some real figures to go by to judge
what the difference is with anon page creation off and on.

Catherine


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] My irrelevant hatnote disambiguation policy

body:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Big_Science&diff=73161148&oldid=64112784

No disambiguation.

~sv~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] CITE

body:
On 8/31/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> I found the following Arbitration Committee finding earlier this year
> most heartening (and not just because I was involved):
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pedophilia_userbox_wheel_war
>
> Admins who got deadminned for doing jawdroppingly dumb things, despite
> having arguably followed written process all the way. Process is
> important - the right amount does keep us all from killing each other
> - but not so important as to be an excuse for stupid.

The conter to that is that if people had followed policy (in this case
done nothing but talk) we wouldn't have been in that mess in the first
place. On the pluss side with luck it provides a solid case for not
haveing a "never revert another admins actions" rule.

--
geni


from_name: Stephen Streater

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fighting over (R) and (tm) symbols

body:
On 31 Aug 2006, at 13:11, Daniel R. Tobias wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2006 at 10:42, Stephen Streater <sbstreater at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Usually a big document will just say
>> "All trademarks acknowledged" once.
>> Perhaps Wikipedia could say that on a
>> page somewhere.
>
> It does already, on the General Disclaimer:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer

Thanks - that's what I was looking for.


body:
On 31 Aug 2006, at 13:17, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
>> On 31/08/06, Stephen Streater <sbstreater at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It might be different in English law.
>>> If you don't enforce your trademark here,
>>> I think you lose it.
>>
>>
>> Business: "We demand you cover your article in (R) and (tm)."
>> Wikipedia: "No. Bloody obvious academic fair use, any legal threat
>> would be obviously frivolous and probably sanctionable."
>> Business: "Well, we tried."
>
> We have also traditionally had good success with simply noting, upon
> first use, the the term is a trademark held by so-and-so.  This is a
> nice compromise because (a) it is encyclopedic information and (b) it
> usually satisfies them.
>
> When they want us to sprinkle (R) or (TM) everywhere, yeah, well, they
> can just forget it, that's stupid.

We had a big debate on [[Web 2.0]] about this.

The article makes it clear it is a trademark under
the heading "Trademark controversy". I can't see
any (r) or (tm).


subject: [WikiEN-l] USGS maps are liberated!

body:
On 31 Aug 2006, at 20:12, Anthony wrote:

> On 8/31/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anthony wrote:
>>> On 8/30/06, Kelly Martin <kelly.lynn.martin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The United States Geological Service tends to limit its
>>>> activities to
>>>> the United States, for some funny reason.
>>>>
>>>> Kelly
>>>>
>>> Which branch of the US government releases the satellite images from
>>> around the world?
>>>
>>
>> NASA, although technically they're not a branch of the US Government,
>> are they?
>>
> Well, they're definitely not a branch, as I used the wrong term :).  I
> think they're considered a government organization though, and would
> be subject to the same copyright limitations.

I had heard that all NASA photos were public domain,
but the actual rules are easy to find:
http://www.nasa.gov/audience/formedia/features/MP_Photo_Guidelines.html


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Akash Mehta

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "Drive-by tagging" advice needed

body:
I hope its in 2.0, but we must respect the roadmap (if any). Is there
a mediawiki development mailing list I can join (slightly offtopic,
sorry, but I couldn't find it anywhere)?

On 8/31/06, Richard Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/31/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 31/08/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > David Gerard wrote:
> >
> > > > The interesting bits of life are the grey areas. Wikipedia is not a
> > > > refuge from them. How to get this across to those who see the world
> > > > entirely in black and white, and think of grey as a kind of defective
> > > > stippling?
> >
> > > Wait until Mediawiki 2.0, which will /finally/ have 40kV through the
> > chair.
> >
> >
> > I thought that was set for the III Phase version of the software.
>
>
> **Groan!**---------------------------^
>
> -Rich Holton
> [[W:en:User:Rholton]]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Ilia Alshanetsky

subject: [Wikitech-l] PHP 5.2.0RC3 testing

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello!

You are receiving this email because your project has been select to
take part in a new effort by the PHP QA Team to make sure that your
project still works with PHP versions to-be-released. With this we
hope to make sure that you are either aware of things that might
break, or to make sure we don't introduce any strange regressions.
With this effort we hope to build a better relation between the PHP
Team and the major projects.

If you do not want to receive these heads-up emails, please reply to
me personally and I will remove you from the list; but, we hope that
you want to actively help us making PHP a better and more stable tool.

The third release candidate of PHP 5.2.0 was released today, it can
be downloaded from http://downloads.php.net/ilia/. The two important
fixes in this release address a memory corruption in the new memory
manager and the shutdown order of the session extension. If you
discover any problems with this release please notify PHP's QA team
at "php-qa at lists.php.net".

In case you think that other projects should also receive this kinds
of emails, please let me know privately, and I will add them to the
list of projects to contact.

Best Regards,

Ilia Alshanetsky
5.2 Release Master
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (Darwin)

iD4DBQFE95RgLKekh381/CERAum7AJi+juOjp91CqI+VddFM0EH7g9QmAJ9hThoO
P5BuPhBh2GIF7AXhmFD8UA==
=RLoh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


body:
Pardon my ignorance, but whats the 40kV through the chair?

On 8/31/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 31/08/06, Akash Mehta <draicone at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 8/31/06, Richard Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 8/31/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On 31/08/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Wait until Mediawiki 2.0, which will /finally/ have 40kV through the
> > > > chair.
>
> > > > I thought that was set for the III Phase version of the software.
>
> > > **Groan!**---------------------------^
>
> > I hope its in 2.0, but we must respect the roadmap (if any). Is there
> > a mediawiki development mailing list I can join (slightly offtopic,
> > sorry, but I couldn't find it anywhere)?
>
>
> wikitech-l
>
> Apparently there are some technical difficulties in implementing the
> 40kV through the chair.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: commons-l

from_name: Raimond Spekking

subject: [Commons-l] Response from the USGS image purchaser

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brion Vibber schrieb:
> Raimond Spekking wrote:

>>
>> This code is implemented on Wikimedia servers too but not
>> reviewed/activated. I will ask Jeluf and/or brion today.
>
> The code's there, but I'm not sure if we've installed the required utilities for
> it yet. Check with JeLuF...

JeLuF told me today that it works at his home installation but not on
the MW servers... He is still debugging...

Raymond.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFE90J6p+qUcbEr56YRAk76AKDvwI8FgogSPg+Fda4g0C5cHQf5AwCgiBkQ
qGX+94bEaMtHkitX2O0iUDc=
=zwFz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Matt Brown

body:
On 8/31/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Big_Science&diff=73161148&oldid=64112784
>
> No disambiguation.

I agree with Makemi that this seems rather random and bizarre
behaviour on your part.  Is this you taking an issue with 'trivia'
another step towards irrational hatred?

There's already too much conflict about article naming and
disambiguation without making it worse - in this case, by insisting
that when a primary topic gets the name instead of it being a
disambiguation page, the others have not only to accept a
disambiguated title but can't even be pointed to at the main name.

Wikipedia is not purely an encyclopedia of science - or any other
topic.  It's every specialist encyclopedia in one bundle, and part of
dealing with that is having to accept disambiguation - since while in
each specialist field, there is unlikely to be ambiguity, across the
whole of human knowledge some terminology overlaps.

In other words, either accept little disambiguation notes like that or
accept that every ambiguous title will be a disambiguation page and
nobody will get primary topic disambiguation - which latter might be
my preferred choice, except everyone would squabble about that too.

What your removal of disambiguation links means is that you arrogantly
think that only YOUR favorite topic should have a wikipedia article,
and the others shouldn't.

-Matt


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] REMINDER: Skypecast - Messages for board members

body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:
> Anthere schreef:
>
>>Actually, I somehow lost (?) the software which allowed me to read the
>>ogg files, so I heard the second link.
>>
>>I'll be interested in being recommanded a software to read the ogg file
>>(which will be 1) free of charge and 2) for a macintosh).
>>
>>Greg, can you help ?
>>
>>Anthere
>
>
> The only Macintosh I have is an antique. But so far I know the
> recommended player for playing Ogg Vorbis on Mac, at least if it is
> MacOS X, is VLC;
> http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-macosx.html

I downloaded two, one from a link Michael Bimmler gave me (Cog) and VLC.

Both are working, so all is cool !

Thanks

> That is a very advanced player&more but you can also use it for playing
> a Ogg Vorbis file.
>
> My apologies btw for the hard words in the email to otrs-en-l  I did not
> knew it was you :-)

You were correct anyway.

ant

> Greetings,
> Walter
>


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Jeffrey V. Merkey

subject:
[Foundation-l] Notice from Election Officials: Clarification
 of	vote eligibility of blocked accounts

body:
Hi Aphaia,

I had not planned to vote in the election in any event because I don't
feel right about it
at the present time (but I will do translations), so I don't think this
applies to me since
I am a real world entity who votes with $$$ and not a Wikipedia editor
per se in any
event who needs representation on the Board. I wish the candidates luck and
am interested to see what the community does here. It will be fun to watch.

Have a great evening and I think you have done a great job here. Keep up
the good
work.

Jeff


subject: [Foundation-l] Quo vadis, WMF?

body:
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
> For a long long time it has been the operative assumption that the
> Wikimedia Foundation carries the legal liability, and if things go
> really really badly wrong, the foundation would sacrifice itself, so
> the community, and the content itself could continue elsewhere.
>
> There has however been gradual development of the foundations
> structures in two ways that seem to indicate that this operative
> assumption (not being anywhere formally enunciated, except in the
> tangible fact of working under the GFDL) may not last forever.
>
> Firstly there is the building of increasingly robust defensive
> bulwarks against litigation and other forms that the foundation could
> be seriously harmed. This is something which is clearly an unequivocal
> good in what ever operative assumption the Foundation labors under,
> and should continue no matter what. The question on this front rather
> is, whether there exists now, or will exist in the foreseeable future,
> a sufficient level of robustness for these defenses that the need to
> keep the Foundation as expendable, discardable isn't relevant anymore
> from a standpoint of necessity?
>
> The other facet of the question is the speed at which the organs of
> the foundation develop into integral parts of how our whole greater
> endeavour operates. Note I am not saying indispensible in the sense
> that those particular organs are locked into place (we are a long way
> from that yet), but integral in the sense that should the highly
> unlikely eventuality of having to start again occur (as the GFDL
> allows), _something_ would have fill their functions in the operation
> of the restarted endeavour.
>
> The problem (or non-problem, as the facts may obtain) here lies on
> what philosophy do we adopt toward this earlier operative assumption
> of sacrificability?
>
> Do we find on reflection, that we have already crossed the Rubicon,
> that although theoretically the work could be restarted elsewhere, the
> disruption would be high enough, that it is wisest to abandon all
> worry about the possibility of sacrificing the Foundation, and
> concentrate on making the Foundation functional without regard to what
> things it might lock us into, and speed up construction of legal and
> other defensive bulwarks into a kind of Fortress Wikimedia Foundation?
>
> Or should we seriously consider examining every new thing the
> Foundation takes onto its plate, making doubly sure that it is
> something that would compromise our ability to just chuck the
> Foundation away like the tail of a lizard, and trust we will have the
> resources to grow a new tail, there being no vital organs in it.
>
> Or can someone in one swift stroke demonstrate that all the above is
> entirely inconsequential? For me, that would be a great relief, and
> good enough.
>

I appreciate you ask questions Cimon.
But, please, please, please, could you make your english a little bit
more accessible for non natives ?

ant


subject: [Foundation-l] Quo vadis, WMF?


list: textbook-l

from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Textbook-l] Google Book Search

body:
Hi,

Piotr "Derbeth" Kubowicz wrote:
> Today I found news about a new Google project - Google Book Search. This service, available at http://books.google.com/, allows users to search for books and browse some of them online. In most cases, only parts of books are available and the whole material is copyrighted. Google Book Search also offers long description of every book, links to online stores where the book is available, possibility to search words in a single books and more features.
>
> Currently I have not seen any books from Wikibooks there. I find this project as a real chance for Wikibooks to promote itself and its content; we should add our PDF versions there if it is possible. Google says it does not take any money for adding new books to its search engine, but I am not sure if they require ISBN number for each book.
>
> What is your opinion on this project?

Google only accept books from official, registered published.
I don't think they will accept anything from Wikibooks or any other
Wikimedia projects for that matter.

Regards,

Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Biblioth?que libre
http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [WikiEN-l] USGS maps are liberated!

body:
Anthony wrote:
> On 8/30/06, Kelly Martin <kelly.lynn.martin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The United States Geological Service tends to limit its activities to
>> the United States, for some funny reason.
>>
>> Kelly
>>
> Which branch of the US government releases the satellite images from
> around the world?
>

NASA, although technically they're not a branch of the US Government,
are they?

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 569 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20060831/28a3d046/attachment.pgp


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] hitcount stats

body:
Tels wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Moin,
>
> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 19:44, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>> On 8/30/06, Tels <nospam-abuse at bloodgate.com> wrote:
>>> So, if you can't guarantee that the hashes of the IP (including the
>>> log) don't leak out, how can you guarantee that the secret doesn't leak
>>> out? Answer: You can't.
>>>
>>> The only safe way to not leak these information out is not even to
>>> store them.
>> Silly, you store the hashes but not the secret.
>
> The machine doing the hashes needs to know the secret and to make a
> meaningfull analysis, you can't change it. (Well, maybe you could change it
> once a month).
>
> Still the secret is there and it can be leaked, subpoenaed or just plain be
> sent out by a SNAFU.

Store the secret on flash memory embedded on a chip with a standalone
processor, like a smart card. Have the processor do the hashes itself, don't
provide any interface to obtain the secret. Put the processor in a box with
a tamper switch and a small incendiary device, nothing but a serial line
leading out. Easy.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Approved" versions on Wikipedia FAQ

body:
David Gerard schreef:
[cut]
> Further, I should note: as far as the English-language press is
> concerned, all of Wikipedia and all of Wikimedia is the English
> Wikipedia, at http://www.wikipedia.com/ , no matter I do my best to
> say otherwise every time I speak to them ...

At least www.wikipedia.com does not redirect to en.wikipedia.org

If it was up to me www.wikipedia.com whould point to a blank page with;

Human error: no commercial encyclopedia found

Did you mean wikipedia<strong>.org</strong>?

And redirect automatically with a delay of 10 seconds to www.wikipedia.org.

--
Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-09-01

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Template with thumb image (with link in description)... FAILED!
Running test Template infinite loop... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML Hex character encoding.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!

Passed 412 of 429 tests (96.04%) FAILED!


from_name: Mak

body:
<snip>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Big_Science&diff=73161148&oldid=64112784
No disambiguation.
~sv~
</snip>

Huh? Was that WP:POINT? The problem is, that our search function sucks. So
we have to make finding things through the "Go" option mindnumbingly easy.
It is not unreasonable to think that someone looking for a very influential
album (I once had a day in class on this album in college) would search for
its name, "Big Science". Why you would remove any reference to the alternate
meaning in the main Big Science article kind of boggles me. Perhaps I've
missed something in the hundred e-mails sent out on this list today.

User:Makemi


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject: [WikiEN-l] Well darn, Pokemon is important after all.

body:
On 8/31/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/30/06, Neil Harris <neil at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> > On day 3, they were all multiples of 1000/3
> >
> > On day 4, they are all multiples of 1000/4...
>
> I swear there's a pattern, but damned if I can figure it out...

See my post above.

What I said was that I would think that the script extrapolates the
number of hits per page by multiplying the actual hits by the number
used to set the sample frequency, 5000. It then divides by the number
of days so far in the collection period (a month) to get hits per day.

That is, the script works out the number of hits per month, which is
always going to be a multiple of 1000. Then it divides by the number
of days in that month for which there is data.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Cheney Shill

subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus is dying...

body:
SPUI <drspui at gmail.com> wrote:>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#59.25_.3D_consensus.3F

User voting, whether by poll or by discussion until one side stops discussing (aka, into the ground), is original research.  So, yes, consensus applied this way should die.  I guess the sources in this case, namely the actual names of the state highways plus the state name, is just too, hmmm, verifiable by reputable and reliable sources like the states, news sources that report traffic accidents, and both published paper and Internet maps.

~~Pro-Lick
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Halliburton_Shill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pro-Lick
http://www.wikiality.net/index.php?title=User:Pro-Lick

--spam may follow--

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Everyone is raving about the  all-new Yahoo! Mail.


subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Template:FA/BeenOnMainPage]]

body:
On 8/30/06, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> What is the proper avenue for this kind of situation? The "normal user"
> will, of course, just think I broke it and revert it, without caring
> about XHTML conformance. The correct way however required for those
> users to fix their CSS. What do I do?

Announce the change somewhere (Wikipedia talk:Featured articles for
example), allow people a week or so to update their personal CSS, then
make the change. I've mentioned all this to Mark.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Mark Gallagher

subject: [WikiEN-l] CITE

body:
G'day Ian,

> I'm considering going postal and go on a rampage through the wikipedia
> arbitrarily deleting stuff; you know, entire articles, paragraphs,
> sentences. It's not vandalism if it's a POLICY, right? ;-)

Actually, following policy, if you do so in a particularly stupid
manner, can get you in far, *far* more hot water than ignoring it
completely.  This is because ArbCom, for the most part, has a Clue.

Long may it continue so.

Cheers,

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse


from_name: SPUI

subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus is dying...


from_name: Anthony

subject: [WikiEN-l] CITE

body:
On 8/31/06, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
> Note also that unless it got changed again, you are specifically told
> not to {{cite}} tag or remove information you don't actually think
> might be erroneous.
>
I usually use the {{cite}} tag when I read something and think
"really, that's neat, how do we know this is true?"  Seems to me to be
exactly what it was invented for.  If I actually doubt the information
is true, on the other hand, I'll remove it rather than tag it.

Anthony


subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus is dying...

body:
On 9/1/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Cheney Shill <halliburton_shill at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > User voting, whether by poll or by discussion until one side stops
> > discussing (aka, into the ground), is original research.  So, yes,
> > consensus applied this way should die.
>
> Perhaps consensus polling should be tried instead.
>
> http://icannwiki.org/Consensus_Polling
>
Perhaps we should stop calling it consensus in those places where
there is no desire to find a solution everyone can agree upon.

Anthony


from_name: Guettarda

subject: [WikiEN-l] At last, the truth revealed!

body:
Thanks David.  And thanks Gubby.  That was brilliant

On 9/1/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/HowTo:Maintain_a_vanity_site_on_Wikipedia
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: niht-hræfn

subject: [WikiEN-l] At last, the truth revealed!

body:
On Sep 1, 2006, at 6:53, David Gerard wrote:

> On 01/09/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe I'm just a humorless tyrant, but I can't see the humor of
>> it. This is
>> exactly what so many vandals and crackpots believe.
>
>
> That's why it's satirical. I'm somewhat annoyed the screenshots are
> real ...
>
>
> - d.

I like the screenshots. It gives it a nice scientific-experiment-for-
the-greater-good feel. I mean, anyone can rant about the stupid
things people do to preserve their vanity creations, but an
experiment to display the technique and the effectiveness thereof?
That's science.

(I'd like to note that in the instance, the Almighty Wikipedia
prevailed, and the article only claims that the vanity lasted four
minutes.)

--Keitei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keitei


from_name: Robert Scott Horning

subject: [Textbook-l] Google Book Search

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Piotr "Derbeth" Kubowicz wrote:
>
>
>>Today I found news about a new Google project - Google Book Search. This service, available at http://books.google.com/, allows users to search for books and browse some of them online. In most cases, only parts of books are available and the whole material is copyrighted. Google Book Search also offers long description of every book, links to online stores where the book is available, possibility to search words in a single books and more features.
>>
>>Currently I have not seen any books from Wikibooks there. I find this project as a real chance for Wikibooks to promote itself and its content; we should add our PDF versions there if it is possible. Google says it does not take any money for adding new books to its search engine, but I am not sure if they require ISBN number for each book.
>>
>>What is your opinion on this project?
>>
>>
>
>Google only accept books from official, registered published.
>I don't think they will accept anything from Wikibooks or any other
>Wikimedia projects for that matter.
>
>Regards,
>
>Yann
>
>
>
I have no idea what an "official, registered publisher" might be, but I
don't think it is as difficult as you or others may percieve here.  The
point is that Wikibooks needs to get into the printed publication world,
at least partially, in order for this content to be recognized.  The
ISBN numbers and such are stuff that I'm trying to work with, but I'm
trying to go slowly on that front mainly to avoid steping too hard on
too many toes.

Frankly at this point, I don't see why Google couldn't be made aware of
the WikiPress project for de.wikipedia, as they do have ISBN numbers
(for admittedly German langauge content).  And you can order any of
those books from Amazon.com or any other retail bookstore if you are
interested in it.

--
Robert Scott Horning


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

body:
This is absolutely the wrong way to deal with this. If you don't like
to mention something trivial on the first line of a serious article,
simply create a disambiguation page and link to that instead ("...for
other uses see..."). What you did here is a) making the encyclopedia
harder to navigate and b) insulting the writers of the second article.

If several articles have the same name, you disambiguate. It's that
simple. That's why it's called disambiguation, because a search term
can be ambigous.

Absolutely the wrong thing to do.

--Oskar

On 9/1/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Big_Science&diff=73161148&oldid=64112784
>
> No disambiguation.
>
> ~sv~
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Lane, Ryan

subject: [Wikitech-l] German Wikipedia feature in the news

body:
I keep reading about the German Wikipedia in the news and some new
feature that is going to be added there, but I haven't heard anything
about it on this list. Should I be subscribed to some other list? Has
this even been discussed in the lists, or is it just on IRC (I can't use
IRC at work unfortunately)?

As for the feature, what is the plan for the technical implementation?
Is it an extension? Can it be found anywhere? Is this going to be using
the StableVersion extension or something like it?

I just introduced the StableVersion extension into my environment, and
if there is going to be some native support for this kind of
functionality, I'd like to get more info on it; I'd hate to roll out
this extension to find out that I've wasted my time ;).

V/r,

Ryan Lane


from_name: Aphaia

subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: UI text translation for Board Election 2006

body:
(Forwarded from translators-l)
Hello all,
Election has begun. Please vote now.

To sysops, if you don't subscribe translators-l. For the Election, we
have to update two MediaWiki messages, advised Tim Staring.

------
> boardvote_notqualified:

You are not qualified to vote in this election. You need to have made
$3 edits before $2, you have made $1. Also, your first edit was at $4,
it needs to be before $5.

(or a verbose version, if it fits your culture ... thanks to Shim-phone)
Sorry, you are not qualified to vote in this election here on the
English Wikipedia. You need to have made $3 edits here before $2, you
have made $1. Also, your first edit on this wiki was at $4, it needs
to be before $5.

You may be eligible to vote on another Wikimedia project where you are
active. If so, please visit that project and try again. Thank you!

> boardvote_notloggedin:
You are not logged in. To vote, you must use an account with at least
$1 contributions before $2, and with a first edit before $3.
------

Those changes could be done automatically by MediaWiki default, or
not. Anyway, it would be nice to prepare translations of those
messages in my opinion.

Other MediaWiki:Boardvote_* files have not to be changed, unless they
wasn't been translated. If it is your case, consider put the English
version to those two messages first, and then do translation somewhere
else, in one page ideally, and set them on your wiki later. That would
take only 30 minutes or so.

As for those two messages, you can see them on meta too:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Election_UI_text_2006

If you feel at ease, you can work on that page.

Cheers,

--
Kizu Naoko
 Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
 * vivemus, mea Lesbia, amemus *


from_name: simo amed

subject: [Wikitech-l] IP adressePLEASE

body:
Dear sir
  Need adress IP for controple mu camera from internet
  my number adree IP is
  192 168 001 124
  please enter my adrees IP in configuration internet for can check my camera from internet
  Best Regards
  Amed

---------------------------------
L?che-vitrine ou l?che-?cran ? Yahoo! Magasinage.


subject:
[Foundation-l] Notice from Election Officials: Clarification of
	vote eligibility of blocked accounts

body:
Hello Wikimedians,
We the Election Officials hereby clarify how votes from blocked
accounts will be treated. This is not overruling anything previous, in
our opinion, but is rather writing down of oral tradition of Election
Officials. In the current Board Election, the Election Officials will
count the votes from blocked users as follows:

1. Users indefinitely banned or blocked from any Wikimedia project may
not vote in the Wikimedia Foundation Board elections. This means they
may not vote using the blocked account or from any other account they
may hold on a Wikimedia project.

2. Users temporarily banned or blocked from any Wikimedia project may
not vote from the blocked or banned account for the duration it is
blocked. However, they may vote from any other project on which they
are eligible to vote, or they may vote after their block either
expires or is removed if the election is still open.

3. Election officials may strike votes from users who do not meet the
eligibility criteria described above. Officials may find disqualified
voters by searching manually, by technical filtering (to be provided
by developer(s) if possible), or by third-party reports (see the
below).

4. Any Wikimedia user is invited to report questionable votes to the
Election Officials. To ensure the authenticity of the reports, we
highly recommend that bureaucrats or admins of a local wiki make the
reports, and we appreciate the assistance of local wiki admins in
checking such questionable votes. Admins of local wikis are welcome to
report on projects other than the ones on which they are
administrators; however, local admins are expected to be the most
reliable source of such information.

Thank you for your input and ideas on this issue. We hope all eligible
voters participate in the coming election starting September 1!

Wikimedia Election Committee, 2006
Essjay, Datrio, Aphaia


from_name: stevertigo

body:
--- Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you want to avoid silly looking hatnotes, create a disambig... even
> if it only has those two entries.

Well thats what Ive been doing - and a lot of it. I even made {{dis}} (syntax is
{{dis|term|link 1|link 2}}) just to make this habit of making dis pages a little
easier.

The problem is that I keep seeing the improper form. So then the proper thing to do
is not 1) do it myself, but 2) make a stink about it, so people get the message.

And while we're on the subject, what do people think of this,
  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/a/a2/Disambig-alt2.png
instead of the typical this?:
  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/a/a2/Disambig-alt1.png

sv

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Jeff V. Merkey

subject: [Foundation-l] Quo vadis, WMF?

body:
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

>Anthere wrote:
><snip>
>
>
>>I appreciate you ask questions Cimon.
>>But, please, please, please, could you make your english a little bit
>>more accessible for non natives ?
>>
>>
>>
>
>More accessible for natives, too... :)
>
>I'll summarise/translate (apologies to Cimon if I mangle it):
>
>There was a lot of worry in the Old Days about what would happen if the
>Foundation was forced to shut down because of legal action. It was
>thought that the content and community would just be able to move
>somewhere else and restart, and things would carry on almost like normal.
>
>Recently, people have become unsure that we could do this anymore, due
>to the large number of changes regarding the involvement of the
>Foundation with the projects.
>
>
If you run away from your problems, you just have the same problems
somewhere else.
If there are legal issues with content, better to tackle them head on
rather than run away
from them.     Who would trust content from a community that runs away
from its
legal obligations anyway?

>For one thing it has become less likely that the Foundation would be
>shut down due to better legal defences, which is good. However we need
>to ask if this is a certainty or not, and decide if being able to
>relocate easily is still important.
>
>Also, due to the changes that are happening, it is becoming harder for
>us to relocate; we need to make sure that we can fill in these gaps if
>we did have to restart.
>
>So: do we concentrate on making the Foundation immune, and ignore the
>possibility of having to relocate, or do we make sure that everything
>the Foundation does will be portable?
>
>
I have cloned Wikipedia completely, and as near as I can tell, I am the
first one to
do it so completely.    I have not seen anyone else pull this off yet
without the Foundations
help.  Again, this talk is all nonsense.  The Foundation is not going away.

Jeff

>Or doesn't it matter?
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Quo vadis, WMF?


from_name: Matt Brown

body:
On 9/1/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The problem is that I keep seeing the improper form. So then the proper thing to do
> is not 1) do it myself, but 2) make a stink about it, so people get the message.

Where 'improper form' is defined as 'what stevertigo doesn't like', I see.

Just because you're oh-so-hurt that someone could possibly link to -
sob - an ALBUM from a PHYSICS ARTICLE.  At the top, no less.

The tragedy.  Just think of the children^Wphysicists who will be hurt by that.

-Matt


from_name: Nick Jenkins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rating Articles Extension

body:
> > 4) Maybe a max of one rating per user per page? (Perhaps later votes overwrite/overrule earlier votes? Or just discard
> later votes?)
>
> This point is interesting and it's something I've been considering.
> Right now I think the best route is to capture the vote and ignore it
> later if required. I think an appropriate rating system will be
> weighted (with respect to time) and take into account that wiki pages
> change frequently. The purpose of gathering ratings for us is to draw
> attention to pages that need improvement and to appropriately sort
> similar articles in search results based on quality, since our wiki
> can have multiple articles on similar topics.

Capturing everything probably doesn't hurt (e.g. it allows you to say "which articles have improved the most with time, and which
have gotten worse?")

But if I give something a rating of 3, and then I come back a few months later and say "this page has improved a lot, I think it's a
5 now", and submit a rating of 5, should my original vote of 3 still count?

> It might also be interesting to have a weighted system to weight votes
> based on how much a page has changed over time.

That could work.

An alternative could be to have a sliding window, whereby only votes in the last month or so counts - that way votes based on old
revisions age out of the system. Trouble is if a page is infrequently edited then votes should last longer (since what was voted
upon a while ago will probably still be similar to the current revision), and if a page is infrequently voted upon then votes should
last longer too (because otherwise your sample size will so small that just the last few votes will be able to totally skew the
ratings).

> Awesome, thanks.

By the way, I might have just missed it, but if I haven't you might also want to include something somewhere about which license or
licenses you're releasing your extension under ;-)

All the best,
Nick.


body:
On 9/1/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> And while we're on the subject, what do people think of this,
>   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/a/a2/Disambig-alt2.png
> instead of the typical this?:
>   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/a/a2/Disambig-alt1.png

Hate it.  It's not obvious to the naive reader.  The link is out of
the body of the article, and people are already well-trained by
numerous websites to ignore content outside the central box.  The word
'Disambiguation' itself is Wikipedia jargon; it isn't obvious that it
means 'If you wanted another meaning of this term, go here'.

-Matt


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 01/09/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Big_Science&diff=73161148&oldid=64112784
>
> No disambiguation.

If you want to avoid silly looking hatnotes, create a disambig... even
if it only has those two entries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beirut&diff=21961432&oldid=21810147

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Andrew Whitworth

subject: [Textbook-l] Google Book Search

body:
>Frankly at this point, I don't see why Google couldn't be made aware of
>the WikiPress project for de.wikipedia, as they do have ISBN numbers
>(for admittedly German langauge content).  And you can order any of
>those books from Amazon.com or any other retail bookstore if you are
>interested in it.
>
>--
>Robert Scott Horning

I'm wondering if google wouldn't already be aware of the de.wikibooks
published books, especially if they already do have ISBN numbers, and if
they are available through amazon. I don't know any german, but maybe
somebody who can speak it should do a quick books.google search for one of
the published books, to see what kinds of things turn up.

--Andrew Whitworth (Whiteknight)


from_name: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Does openness dull the bleeding edge?

body:
stevertigo wrote

> > "David Gerard" wrote
> > > arXiv.org is reputed to perform a useful role. How's it look from your
> > > view as an academic mathematician?
>
> > charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com wrote:
> > Experts writing for experts. Even within the field this stuff is hardly readable.
>
> There are a few [[Open access]] repositories out there.
> But is it really the case that "this stuff is hardly readable" or is
> it the case that this stuff isnt linkable and therefore hard to
> corroborate with other current research, as well as authoritative
> references (like Wikipedia)?

See a page such as [[K-theory (physics)]] to get the flavour.

Note that it is not the failure to wikify and provide sources that makes this (I imagine) inaccessible to 99.9% of readers.

Charles

-----------------------------------------
Email sent from www.ntlworld.com
Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software
Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information


body:
--- Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hate it.

As in "isch, I donst tsink so?"

> It's not obvious to the naive reader.

Nor is the disorganised current system, or the edit link for that matter, depending on
how you define naieve.

> The link is out of the body of the article, and people are already well-trained by
> numerous websites to ignore content outside the central box.

Do you have a source for that?

> The word 'Disambiguation' itself is Wikipedia jargon; it isn't obvious that it
> means 'If you wanted another meaning of this term, go here'.

Hm. So edit this page" and "what links here" are common jargon?
On the one hand you say 'it has to be in the content, because people dont look
elsewhere.' Not the most compelling argument. On the other hand you say 'its special
wiki terminology, though it doesnt belong with other special wiki terminology:' Recent
changes, What links here, Related changes, Special pages...

Sigh.

-sv
PS: Does adding actual fact content to Uncyclopedia constitute "trolling"?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Analyzing and Visualizing the Semantic Coverage
	of Wikipedia

body:
On 01/09/06, Akash Mehta <draicone at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Out of the 78,977 categories, 12,252 are not assigned to any article"
> Is it that bad, or are these categories just assigned to user
> talk/wikipedia/etc. namespace pages and therefore not counted?

There's quite a few cats which serve only to group subcategories, and
don't have any articles that belong in them.

[[Category:American people by occupation]], for example - all the
articles belong in subcategories, and as these are pretty disparate
categories there's no article really dealing with the subject of the
main category.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] CITE

body:
On 01/09/06, Daniel R. Tobias <dan at tobias.name> wrote:
> On 31 Aug 2006 at 18:04, "David Gerard" <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Or, to summarise the summary of the summary, people are a problem.

> The world would be such a better place if they were all exterminated,
> wouldn't it?

That's probably a bit drastic. Having to send me $1 to create a
Wikipedia username would be quite sufficient, I think.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus is dying...

body:
On 9/1/06, SPUI <drspui at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#59.25_.3D_consensus.3F

Consensus is dead, has been for a long time.  We're living in a majoritarian
(or supermajoritarian) system, that just calls itself consensus - cf.
Weekend at Bernie's


body:
On 9/1/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hm. So edit this page" and "what links here" are common jargon?
> On the one hand you say 'it has to be in the content, because people dont look
> elsewhere.' Not the most compelling argument. On the other hand you say 'its special
> wiki terminology, though it doesnt belong with other special wiki terminology:' Recent
> changes, What links here, Related changes, Special pages...

The difference, for me, is that 'edit this page' and 'what links
here', etc. are for editing, while disambiguation is for the reader.
While openness in editing is a good thing, I think that things
affecting our readers are more important (in that we have far more
readers than editors, and being useful is a goal).

I also feel that you haven't provided very good reasons for making a
change such as this, except for that you personally find it less
offensive.

-Matt


subject: [WikiEN-l] At last, the truth revealed!

body:
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/HowTo:Maintain_a_vanity_site_on_Wikipedia

- d.


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Analyzing and Visualizing the Semantic Coverage of
	Wikipedia

body:
Interesting new paper:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cs.IR/0512085

--
Peace & Love,
Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] At last, the truth revealed!

body:
On 01/09/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe I'm just a humorless tyrant, but I can't see the humor of it. This is
> exactly what so many vandals and crackpots believe.

That's why it's satirical. I'm somewhat annoyed the screenshots are real ...

- d.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>On 31/08/06, Akash Mehta <draicone at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> there is a template
>>you can use to tell people when wikification is not needed, see
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikify/wikified_wrongly
>>(its for [[WP:WWF]] members, but that doesn't mean you can't use it).
>>
>>
>That seems like extra procedure for no good reason. What on earth is
>wrong with just removing the {{wikify}} tag when it's not needed? It's
>a fairly subjective editorial judgement.
>
Absolutely.  The person who adds the tag should provide detailed
information about what needs to be wikified.  If he fails to do that it
should be reason enough to remove the tag.

Ec


body:
Ah. That answers my questions. This snapshot stuff looks very similar to
the StableVersion extension.

I guess I won't push people very hard to version stuff in our
environment till I see how this plays out.

Thanks for the info.

V/r,

Ryan Lane

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikitech-l-bounces at wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-
> bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Brion Vibber
> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 9:16 AM
> To: Wikimedia developers
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] German Wikipedia feature in the news
>
> Lane, Ryan wrote:
> > I keep reading about the German Wikipedia in the news and some new
> > feature that is going to be added there, but I haven't heard
anything
> > about it on this list. Should I be subscribed to some other list?
Has
> > this even been discussed in the lists, or is it just on IRC (I can't
use
> > IRC at work unfortunately)?
>
> It has either been discussed in German somewhere or in secret. If in
> German, I
> can't help you. See the other posts on Wikipedia-l etc.
>
> > As for the feature, what is the plan for the technical
implementation?
> > Is it an extension? Can it be found anywhere? Is this going to be
using
> > the StableVersion extension or something like it?
>
> See the snapshot-work branch and my Wikimedia presentation.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
David Gerard wrote:

>On 31/08/06, Maury Markowitz <maury_markowitz at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>But David, I was wondering if you would consider starting an article on
>>"procedural obsessives"? It seems that simply pointing people towards such
>>an article would be a much more neutral way to deal with it than posting a
>>personal message on their talk page. THAT can easily be misinterpreted as
>>someone trying to protect "their" article.
>>
>>
>*splutter* To say this is a contentious issue is an understatement.
>
>See [[:en:Wikipedia:Ignore All Rules]] is one. Now, I'd like you to
>read the talk page and the history of that page. A lot of people HATED
>it passionately and did their best to kill it or at least neuter it.
>But Jimbo has stated it's obviously policy, because product beats
>process.
>
>See [[:en:Wikipedia:Process is Important]]. Which, of course, it is.
>
>See [[m:Instruction creep]]. And its history ... in which you can see
>how it was instruction-crept.
>
>See [[m:Don't be a dick]] and the attempts to kill that, most notably
>by claiming it must be deleted because the translation would be
>unacceptably rude in Japanese.
>
These seem like some of the most important policies ... or am I just
showing my age?  As for the last one, the Japanese will just have to
read it in English. ;-)

Ec


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] At last, the truth revealed!

body:
Maybe I'm just a humorless tyrant, but I can't see the humor of it. This is
exactly what so many vandals and crackpots believe.

Mgm

On 9/1/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/HowTo:Maintain_a_vanity_site_on_Wikipedia
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

subject: [Wikitech-l] IP adressePLEASE

body:
On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 09:31:11AM -0400, simo amed wrote:
> Dear sir
>   Need adress IP for controple mu camera from internet
>   my number adree IP is
>   192 168 001 124
>   please enter my adrees IP in configuration internet for can check my camera from internet
>   Best Regards
>   Amed

/me scratches head.

This make take the cake as the message which makes the least sense in
its context from my entire 25 years on the net.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.


subject: [WikiEN-l] CITE

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>On 31/08/06, Ian Woollard <ian.woollard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On 31/08/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Remember: process is important, but good sense is more important.
>>>
>>>
>>True, but policy also needs to be good sense.
>>
>>
>Or, to summarise the summary of the summary, people are a problem.
>
If we automate enough processes, we should be able to eliminate that
problem. ;-)

By building up an adequate stock of bots, templates, rigid formats and
detailed rules we can make them all go away.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Swahili Language and Grammar References

body:
My thanks to the Wikimedia Foundation for providing comprehensive
Swahili Grammar and Language Reference Materials
for grammar and rule set construction for WikiTrans (they arrived
today).  I will begin work on the grammar and verb tensing rules starting
next weekend.  These materials provide a good foundation for the
application of Martin's grammar and parsing programs.

I will attempt to have reasonable closure on the Swahili Machine
translation by end of Autumn.

Jeff


from_name: Kim Bruning

subject: [Foundation-l] "wikinomics"

body:
On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 08:27:55PM -0400, Samuel Klein wrote:
> I'm not sure the authors of this book about "how mass collaboration
> changes everything" have ever heard of Nomic.

Wicked cool! I totally win!

Perhaps we should enlighten (endarken?) them? :-)

see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic

read you soon,
	Kim "Calvinball[1]"  Bruning

[1] Calvinball is a real world nomic, which we
used to demonstrate aspects of the wiki(pedia)
descision making process at wikimania
(As well as have fun, make friends,
and influence people, of course :-) )

--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72


subject: [Foundation-l] "wikinomics"


from_name: Sam Korn

body:
Hi Aphaia

On 9/1/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> (or a verbose version, if it fits your culture ... thanks to Shim-phone)
> Sorry, you are not qualified to vote in this election here on the
> English Wikipedia. You need to have made $3 edits here before $2, you
> have made $1. Also, your first edit on this wiki was at $4, it needs
> to be before $5.

Can we make sure the comma splices in this are fixed for the English projects?

i.e. the last two sentences should read "You need to have made $3
edits here before $2; you have made $1. Also, your first edit on this
wiki was at $4; it needs to be before $5."

Thanks.

--
Sam


subject: [Foundation-l] Annoucement re: Mark Bergsma

body:
On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 10:40:57PM -0400, Brad Patrick wrote:
> I am pleased to announce that WMF has hired Mark Bergsma to serve as
> Networking Coordinator for the Foundation.

OMG WTF? Wow. Way to go, mark!

--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72


body:
On 01/09/06, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Aphaia
>
> On 9/1/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > (or a verbose version, if it fits your culture ... thanks to Shim-phone)
> > Sorry, you are not qualified to vote in this election here on the
> > English Wikipedia. You need to have made $3 edits here before $2, you
> > have made $1. Also, your first edit on this wiki was at $4, it needs
> > to be before $5.
>
> Can we make sure the comma splices in this are fixed for the English projects?
>
> i.e. the last two sentences should read "You need to have made $3
> edits here before $2; you have made $1. Also, your first edit on this
> wiki was at $4; it needs to be before $5."

Fixed. Sorry for not noticing that last night, I was tired and a bit rushed...

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Lists of book references and external links

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>On 01/09/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
>
>
>>What should we do with these pages? According to our policy, the
>>references should be put in each article, not move them to a new
>>article and these articles could be speedied for no actual content.
>>Articles discussing the historiography of each subject would be OK,
>>but as actual articles, not just as lists of books/links.
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Darfur_conflict
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Lord's_Resistance_Army
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_Canadian_History
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Rwandan_Genocide
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_(resources)
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Railway_Bibliography
>>etc.
>>
>>
>Surely there are wikiprojects on en: that would like to look at those
>and turn them into proper articles? Or at least move them into project
>space, which is another really good thing to do with pages of this
>sort that have become superfluous in the article space itself. (Some
>may be a bit contentious for this ...)
>
Why should anyone want to delete them?  Bibliographic surveys
(particularly annotated bibliographies) would be particularly useful to
encourage further study in many broad areas.

Ec


from_name: Delirium

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Analyzing and Visualizing the Semantic Coverage
 of Wikipedia

body:
Frederick "FN" Noronha wrote:

>"It's not as bad as it was a year ago. We had almost nothing then.
>Now, languages like Bengali, Kannada, Marathi are in the 3,000-5,000
>article range. Hindi, Assamese over 1,000. But Hindi, a very large
>language, has only 1,500 entries. That's a little surprising," Wales
>told IANS.
>
>
This actually doesn't surprise me too much.  Hindi is a lingua franca of
sorts in India, but so is English.  In particular, the Hindi speakers
most likely to be editing an encyclopedia on the internet (middle to
upper class, well-educated) are highly likely to also speak very good
English.  Anecdotally, there are indeed a lot of Indians making good
contributions on the English-language Wikipedia, so it seems that many
seem to prefer to put their efforts there, probably for a variety of
reasons (bigger base to start from; feeling that their contribution will
have more global impact; etc.).

-Mark


from_name: Alison Wheeler

body:
 On 9/1/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> (or a verbose version, if it fits your culture ... thanks to Shim-phone)
> Sorry, you are not qualified to vote in this election here on the
> English Wikipedia. You need to have made $3 edits here before $2, you
> have made $1. Also, your first edit on this wiki was at $4, it needs
> to be before $5.

I found it interesting that I received the message:
"your first edit on this wiki was at 19:29, 16 October 2005, it needs to
be before 00:00, 3 May 2006."

Somehow, I always thought that 2005 came before 2006! Possible software
fault?

Alison Wheeler


body:
On 01/09/06, Alison Wheeler <wikimedia at alisonwheeler.com> wrote:
>  On 9/1/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > (or a verbose version, if it fits your culture ... thanks to Shim-phone)
> > Sorry, you are not qualified to vote in this election here on the
> > English Wikipedia. You need to have made $3 edits here before $2, you
> > have made $1. Also, your first edit on this wiki was at $4, it needs
> > to be before $5.
>
> I found it interesting that I received the message:
> "your first edit on this wiki was at 19:29, 16 October 2005, it needs to
> be before 00:00, 3 May 2006."
>
> Somehow, I always thought that 2005 came before 2006! Possible software
> fault?

It was doing that last night, but Tim fixed it... try purging the page
and retrying?

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Platonides

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rating Articles Extension

body:
"Travis Derouin" wrote:
>> 4) Maybe a max of one rating per user per page? (Perhaps later votes
>> overwrite/overrule earlier votes? Or just discard later votes?)
>
> This point is interesting and it's something I've been considering.
> Right now I think the best route is to capture the vote and ignore it
> later if required. I think an appropriate rating system will be
> weighted (with respect to time) and take into account that wiki pages
> change frequently. The purpose of gathering ratings for us is to draw
> attention to pages that need improvement and to appropriately sort
> similar articles in search results based on quality, since our wiki
> can have multiple articles on similar topics.
>
> It might also be interesting to have a weighted system to weight votes
> based on how much a page has changed over time. So, when a vote of 3
> is submitted and the page changes by so many characters, or so many
> times, and a vote of 5 comes along, the resulting rating is higher
> than (3+5) /2 = 4.
>
> Travis

A vote system must be able to deal with all kind of trickies. People
overvoting, voting ech day, trying to improve their 'wikipedia pagerank', or
shut down others'...
Maybe you could set a ip-hash so vote only affects if it's different than
last vote (or last 5 votes...). Then it could be remplaced by the semisum of
both votes of those hash matching ips. Maybe even with a special sensibility
for repeated queries from the same ISP (dynamic ips
connecting-voting-disconnecting).

About the vote forgiveness on change take into account that most wight
changes are those of blanking/reverting so some blank-revert processes could
reset the counter although content haven't changed.

P.S. http://wiki16.wikidiy.com/Special:ListRatings -> Fatal error: Call to a
member function on a non-object in
/var/www/html/wiki16/extensions/RateArticle.php on line 187


subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

body:
"Mark Clements" wrote:
>
> It would not be hard to include appropriate trace information in the
> headers
> (referrer & useragent), which will show up in the remote website's logs.
> For example, IP/username of the uploader, link back to the resulting image
> page, etc.
>
> We could even set the referrer URL to a non-editable page giving full
> details about the specific request, with further links that explain the
> feature and how it works, give details about how to report abuse/copyright
> infringement, etc.
>
> - Mark Clements (HappyDog)

We could even give a From: request pointing to a verified email (BIG letters
saying it!!) redirecting webmaster to the email owner. But i don't see it
too useful.

P.S. There's already an implementation on svn.


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Lane, Ryan wrote:
> I keep reading about the German Wikipedia in the news and some new
> feature that is going to be added there, but I haven't heard anything
> about it on this list. Should I be subscribed to some other list? Has
> this even been discussed in the lists, or is it just on IRC (I can't use
> IRC at work unfortunately)?

It has either been discussed in German somewhere or in secret. If in German, I
can't help you. See the other posts on Wikipedia-l etc.

> As for the feature, what is the plan for the technical implementation?
> Is it an extension? Can it be found anywhere? Is this going to be using
> the StableVersion extension or something like it?

See the snapshot-work branch and my Wikimedia presentation.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 249 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20060901/53f590de/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

body:
Name errors can be avoided by javascript checking. "Please add an
extension". "No, i don't want .jpeg files, use .jpg"  and so on...


from_name: Piotr "Derbeth" Kubowicz

subject: [Textbook-l] Google Book Search

body:
Dnia Fri, 01 Sep 2006 15:13:15 +0200, Robert Scott Horning napisa?(a):

> I have no idea what an "official, registered publisher" might be, but I
> don't think it is as difficult as you or others may percieve here.

Perhaps we should just try and ask Wikimedia Foundation to act as a "publisher" and register in Google Books. It might be possible that having ISBN number for each book is not obligatory and there is a way to make Wikibooks texts available in Google Books.

> Frankly at this point, I don't see why Google couldn't be made aware of
> the WikiPress project for de.wikipedia, as they do have ISBN numbers
> (for admittedly German langauge content).  And you can order any of
> those books from Amazon.com or any other retail bookstore if you are
> interested in it.

As far as I understand, publishers are supposed to register in Google Books and submit their books - not on the other side. I think we should just inform WikiPress about Google Books, in case they don't know about this project.

--
Piotr 'Derbeth' Kubowicz
Jabber id: derbeth at jabber.wp.pl

Pom?? Wikibooks stworzy? najwi?kszy zbi?r otwartych podr?cznik?w! http://pl.wikibooks.org/

Opera - the fastest browser on Earth! http://www.opera.com/


from_name: Jeff Carr

subject:
[Wikitech-l] OT: What language would *you* have done it in,
 and why?

body:
On 07/28/06 16:33, Chad Perrin wrote:

> I mostly agree that PHP is unsuitable for anything larger than a quick
> hack.  That doesn't mean it doesn't get used for things larger than a
> quick hack.  That's the point I was trying to make.

Unfortunately your point is wrong.


body:
On 01/09/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:

> What should we do with these pages? According to our policy, the
> references should be put in each article, not move them to a new
> article and these articles could be speedied for no actual content.
> Articles discussing the historiography of each subject would be OK,
> but as actual articles, not just as lists of books/links.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Darfur_conflict
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Lord's_Resistance_Army
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_Canadian_History
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Rwandan_Genocide
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_(resources)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Railway_Bibliography
> etc.

Surely there are wikiprojects on en: that would like to look at those
and turn them into proper articles? Or at least move them into project
space, which is another really good thing to do with pages of this
sort that have become superfluous in the article space itself. (Some
may be a bit contentious for this ...)

- d.


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Recent changes page improvements to help catch spam &
	vandalism

body:
I use mediawiki on a lot of sites which have minimal traffic.

It's very time consuming to go click through things on the "Recent
Changes" page to check for spam & vandalism.

What would make it easier to quickly detect is a "Recent Changes diff
page". I'm thinking something that just shows the wiki diff for
several pages at once.

For example on this page:
http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Documentation&diff=prev&oldid=31100

Now just imagine that after the diff part on that page, instead of
having: "Revision as of 18:36, 19 June 2006" and then the page itself,
it would just have the next recent diff.

This would make it much easier to review lots of recent changes
(50/100/250 at a time).

It would also be useful if this activity could be coordinated.
"Trusted" or formally registered users could mark the anonymous
submissions as reviewed. The the time of good people wouldn't be
wasted on duplicate effort looking for bad stuff.

An option to email a daily or weekly diff formatted with the pretty
mediawiki html output would also be a great feature.

Any hints as to how I might go about trying to implement this?

Maybe: includes/RecentChange.php & includes/DifferenceEngine.php ?


from_name: Guillaume Paumier

body:
Hi

On 9/1/06, Alison Wheeler <wikimedia at alisonwheeler.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/1/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > (or a verbose version, if it fits your culture ... thanks to Shim-phone)
> > Sorry, you are not qualified to vote in this election here on the
> > English Wikipedia. You need to have made $3 edits here before $2, you
> > have made $1. Also, your first edit on this wiki was at $4, it needs
> > to be before $5.
>
> I found it interesting that I received the message:
> "your first edit on this wiki was at 19:29, 16 October 2005, it needs to
> be before 00:00, 3 May 2006."
>
> Somehow, I always thought that 2005 came before 2006! Possible software
> fault?
>

Actually, you get this message even if you meet one of the criteria. Thus,
if your editcount is below 400, but your first edit was made before 00:00, 3
may 2006, you will be said "your first edit on this wiki was at 19:29, 16
October 2005, it needs to
be before 00:00, 3 May 2006." This may cause some misunderstanding.

g.

--
Guillaume Paumier
Disciplus Simplex
http://fr.wikipedia.org : Resistance is futile ? You will be assimilated.


from_name: Rob Church

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rating Articles Extension

references:
<d45df5100608301414t2f42841ck4ac06f7295c91096@mail.gmail.com>
	<NABBJGECPILFNLFEAPIKCEKGIMAA.nickpj@gmail.com>
	<d45df5100608310836s1b2a4293nbf4f0af267f3e8d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<ed9e22$a0q$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 01/09/06, Platonides <Platonides at gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe you could set a ip-hash so vote only affects if it's different than
> last vote (or last 5 votes...). Then it could be remplaced by the semisum of
> both votes of those hash matching ips. Maybe even with a special sensibility
> for repeated queries from the same ISP (dynamic ips
> connecting-voting-disconnecting).

Far, far simpler than that:

* Don't allow unregistered users to rate pages
* When a user rates page, their new rating replaces existing ratings
for that page from that user, allowing people's opinions to change
over time

No sense in fiddling about with all this IP address hashing bollocks
and super-secret hashing when there's no need. I think the idea of
personal information and IP addresses and storage and so forth is
going to people's heads.

Rob Church


from_name: Bogdan Giusca

body:
What should we do with these pages? According to our policy, the
references should be put in each article, not move them to a new
article and these articles could be speedied for no actual content.

Articles discussing the historiography of each subject would be OK,
but as actual articles, not just as lists of books/links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Darfur_conflict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Lord's_Resistance_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_Canadian_History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_the_Rwandan_Genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_(resources)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Railway_Bibliography
etc.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Rating Articles Extension

references:
<d45df5100608301414t2f42841ck4ac06f7295c91096@mail.gmail.com>
	<NABBJGECPILFNLFEAPIKCEKGIMAA.nickpj@gmail.com>
	<d45df5100608310836s1b2a4293nbf4f0af267f3e8d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<ed9e22$a0q$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e92136380609010948q438f9039p11eaa4e48028cb1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ed9s42$uhu$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 01/09/06, Platonides <Platonides at gmail.com> wrote:
> Much easier. But probably you'll get the most feedback from anons.
> At least how i understood it. If you have a number of wikipedists
> 'reviewing articles' may be used.

[snipped stuff I don't necessarily disagree with]

I think the point is that we're not talking about votes to elect a new
Prime Minister or President, and we're not talking about something
that's oh-so-vital that a few dud votes will kill us off.

It's a casual rating system to give people a bit of an idea as to how
good various people think a page is. Supplemental to stable
versioning, perhaps, but it still doesn't replace people checking
their own sources, etc.

Your point about feedback coming from anons is a good one, and quite
salient, since it's quite correct that most (and the best, from the
point of view of what our "audience" thinks) feedback will come from
viewers who might not have accounts.

Whatever is chosen in the implementation is going to be a toss-up,
because life is not perfect, people are not perfect, and shared IP
addressing is a sordid reality we have to put up with. :)

Rob Church


subject: [Textbook-l] Google Book Search

body:
Dnia Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:48:57 +0200, Andrew Whitworth napisa?(a):

> I'm wondering if google wouldn't already be aware of the de.wikibooks
> published books, especially if they already do have ISBN numbers, and if
> they are available through amazon. I don't know any german, but maybe
> somebody who can speak it should do a quick books.google search for one of
> the published books, to see what kinds of things turn up.

I already made it. "Wikipedia: das Buch" gives nothing.

As I have just written, Google itself does not add any books, publishers are supposed to do it (as far as I understood from Google Books help).

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that WikiPress only prints materials from German Wikipedia. That's what they say on their website and search for term "Wikibooks" on their site gave me nothing interesting.

--
Piotr 'Derbeth' Kubowicz
Jabber id: derbeth at jabber.wp.pl

Pom?? Wikibooks stworzy? najwi?kszy zbi?r otwartych podr?cznik?w! http://pl.wikibooks.org/

Opera - the fastest browser on Earth! http://www.opera.com/


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject:
[Wikitech-l] OT: What language would *you* have done it in,
	and why?

body:
On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 05:04:15PM -0700, Jeff Carr wrote:
> On 07/28/06 16:33, Chad Perrin wrote:
>
> > I mostly agree that PHP is unsuitable for anything larger than a quick
> > hack.  That doesn't mean it doesn't get used for things larger than a
> > quick hack.  That's the point I was trying to make.
>
> Unfortunately your point is wrong.

Your argument is compelling.  I yield the field to your superior debate
acumen.

. . . months later.

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"There comes a time in the history of any project when it becomes necessary
to shoot the engineers and begin production." - MacUser, November 1990


subject: [WikiEN-l] My irrelevant hatnote disambiguation policy

body:
On 9/1/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hm. So edit this page" and "what links here" are common jargon?

I think most people with a modicum of sense would understand "edit
this page".  They might think we're a bunch of raving loonies (let's
face it -- we probably are) but they would probably understand the
message.  Hence most OTRS messages go "OMG yuv bin hacked!" rather
than "I don't understand what you mean by "edit this page"."

OTOH, "what links here" is not obvious.  However, let's look at
audiences.  What links here is useful for editors only.  No-one else.
"Edit this page" is for bridging the gap between readers and editors.
"Disambiguation" is for the use of readers[1] *alone*, i.e. people who
may have *no* other experience of Wikipedia, editing or reading.

Now ask which is the clearer disambiguation system: the current one or
your proposed one.  I am quite willing to concede that the current
system can be downright peculiar and mock serious subjects, but I very
much doubt this is the solution.

[1] editors of Wikipedia are not excluded from being "readers".

--
Sam


from_name: Fredrik Josefsson

subject: [Commons-l] Some stats and info

body:
First of all, I hereby inform everyone of the recently
created Administrators' noticeboard, located at
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard

Secondly, everyone who is watching recent changes have
probably seen that the mass-upload of scans for
Wikisource is commencing. I personally had worries
about this, but since they do belong on Commons, this
flooding-problem must be possible to solve in some
technical way.

Third. Because of the ever-increasing traffic, several
new admins have been promoted:
August 16th, User:Lestath (pl, en-2, la-1)
August 17th, User:Cnyborg (no, en-3, +others)
August 17th, User:Odder (pl, en-2, de-2)
August 30th, User:Platonides (es, en-2, fr-1)
August 31st, User:Drini (es, en-3)

We welcome them and hope they will make good use of
their admin abilities.

Fourth. Because of the increased traffic, there is a
larger backlog, although not critical. There are
around 1,100 images without source from July, and 100
left from June. The categories can be reached from
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Unknown .

The speedy delete categories should never have a
backlog. Recently the copyright violation category,
located at
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Against_policy
  , was up to 140 images, which is too much. Now it is
down to about 50 which is acceptable, but keep an eye
on it. In case anyone is interested, there is also a
category for duplicates,
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Duplicate ,
that hardly gets any attention.

Finally, I am still looking for someone who runs Linux
and understands MySql to make a specific
administrator-list. A complete tutorial is available!

/ Fred-Chess


from_name: Angela

subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus is dying...

body:
On 9/1/06, Cheney Shill <halliburton_shill at yahoo.com> wrote:
> User voting, whether by poll or by discussion until one side stops
> discussing (aka, into the ground), is original research.  So, yes,
> consensus applied this way should die.

Perhaps consensus polling should be tried instead.

http://icannwiki.org/Consensus_Polling

Angela.


from_name: Daniel R. Tobias

body:
On 1 Sep 2006 at 10:08, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:

> And while we're on the subject, what do people think of this,
>   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/a/a2/Disambig-alt2.png
> instead of the typical this?:
>   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/a/a2/Disambig-alt1.png

The second one seems to be 404 Not Found.

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


from_name: Rory Stolzenberg

subject: [Foundation-l] Angela, a little word on the en:wp CVU ...

body:
We shouldn't just pick on the CVU.  If we're going to start deleting these,
we should delete all of them, including the AMA logo, among others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:CopyrightByWikimedia
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:CopyrightByWikimedia

On 9/1/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hmm. What is the copyright status of the old logo?:
>
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/b/bc/20030314234804%21Wiki.png
>
> and can I confirm it is ok to delete this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wiki.PNG (note capitalisation)
>
>
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] IP adressePLEASE

body:
It had proably an attached virus. Has header:
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.8

Text is absurd advertising a camera ip saying it has a LAN ip...
Tricking voyeurs with a virus attached instead of a camera viewer?


subject: [Wikitech-l] Rating Articles Extension

body:
"Rob Church" wrote:
> Far, far simpler than that:
>
> * Don't allow unregistered users to rate pages
> * When a user rates page, their new rating replaces existing ratings
> for that page from that user, allowing people's opinions to change
> over time
>
> No sense in fiddling about with all this IP address hashing bollocks
> and super-secret hashing when there's no need. I think the idea of
> personal information and IP addresses and storage and so forth is
> going to people's heads.
>
>
> Rob Church

Much easier. But probably you'll get the most feedback from anons.
At least how i understood it. If you have a number of wikipedists
'reviewing articles' may be used.

Such hashing is a weak system to avoid multiple votes. You see there's no
IP addresses stored, e.g. only your  ip module 12345. So it's higly
improbable
two different anons with colliding ip voting for the same article in a short
amount
of time.
Much more improbable if you only compare the last voter. But then you could
fill
votes alternating two ips. So i mentioned checking X last voters.


from_name: James Hare

body:
Hmm! Incidentally, I left a message on Jimbo's talk page about the CVU using
the Wikimedia Logo.

On 9/1/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Counter-Vandalism_Unit&diff=73115462&oldid=73037422
>
> Despite much attempt at sweet reason, they insist on continuing
> egregious violation of the logo policy, and apparently won't listen to
> anyone but you.
>
> Alternately, if there's a Commons admin who can speedy the pics in
> question as an utter violation of all such rules, it would probably be
> a good idea.
>
> (And that's not even getting into their strange notion that they can
> vote themselves exempt from any sort of civility policy.)
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Akash Mehta

body:
"Out of the 78,977 categories, 12,252 are not assigned to any article"
Is it that bad, or are these categories just assigned to user
talk/wikipedia/etc. namespace pages and therefore not counted?

On 9/1/06, Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting new paper:
> http://arxiv.org/abs/cs.IR/0512085
>
> --
> Peace & Love,
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: stevertigo

body:
--- charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com wrote:

> See a page such as [[K-theory (physics)]] to get the flavour.
>
> Note that it is not the failure to wikify and provide sources that makes this (I
> imagine) inaccessible to 99.9% of readers.

But its inaccessibility didnt stop me from starting on wikifying it.
The value of its wikification I can only guess is a variable, depending on 1) its
usefulness for experts as a summary, and 2) its usefulness to learners such that
learners can fill in the gaps.

Its like Ronald Reagan said after using the john: "everything will just trickle on
down."

-sv

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Dan Li

subject: [Wikitech-l] before and after content display hooks

body:
On 8/30/06, Travis Derouin <travis at wikihow.com> wrote:
> Are there any hooks available planned that are called right before or
> after article is displayed in HTML? They'd be useful to have around to
> display HTML before or after the contents of an article.
>
> Travis

BeforePageDisplay in includes/SkinTemplate.php can be very useful. The
only catch is that it isn't called by skins that directly extend Skin
instead of SkinTemplate (i.e. Cologne Blue, Nostalgia, and Classic).

Regards,
  - Dan Li


from_name: ScottL

body:
stevertigo wrote:
> --- Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hate it.
>
> As in "isch, I donst tsink so?"
>
>> It's not obvious to the naive reader.
>
> Nor is the disorganised current system, or the edit link for that matter, depending on
> how you define naieve.
>

   How is a plane English sentence describing what someone might have
wanted, or indicating that if they wanted something else in general,
that they should follow a link not obvious?  It is in plane english and
does not require that a person be "in the know" or an editor.  First
time wikipedia users can get it.

>> The link is out of the body of the article, and people are already well-trained by
>> numerous websites to ignore content outside the central box.
>
> Do you have a source for that?

WTF?

>
>> The word 'Disambiguation' itself is Wikipedia jargon; it isn't obvious that it
>> means 'If you wanted another meaning of this term, go here'.
>
> Hm. So edit this page" and "what links here" are common jargon?
> On the one hand you say 'it has to be in the content, because people dont look
> elsewhere.' Not the most compelling argument. On the other hand you say 'its special
> wiki terminology, though it doesnt belong with other special wiki terminology:' Recent
> changes, What links here, Related changes, Special pages...
>
> Sigh.

   You seem to be confusing editors with casual readers.  Most of the
features you point at are for editors.  People who will take the time to
get use to the conventions and terms used.  Some people just want to
find the right article.

>
> -sv
> PS: Does adding actual fact content to Uncyclopedia constitute "trolling"?

Lol

SKL


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus is dying...

body:
On 9/1/06, Anthony <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps consensus polling should be tried instead.
> >
> > http://icannwiki.org/Consensus_Polling
> >
> Perhaps we should stop calling it consensus in those places where
> there is no desire to find a solution everyone can agree upon.

The phrase that's always used is "rough consensus", a recognition of
the fact that it may well be impossible to please everyone, or at
least highly impractical.

Consensus polling however has seemed to me like an excellent idea,
since I heard about it from Angela a while ago. It helps to give some
structure to consensus finding, without being as rigid or as blunt as
a poll, and is very flexible.

I think it would have great potential on the projects and would be
very interested in helping anyone who wants to try it out.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


body:
Akash Mehta wrote:
> Well, what do you mean by a central bibliographical reference base? I
> could code it, if I knew what I was coding. Currently we have the
> <reference> system, which is simple enough, but getting entries in the
> right format is hard. Using the cite templates makes life simple, but
> not everyone knows about them. Is there a wikiproject on improving
> wikipedia's bibliographical standards?

   If not there should be.

SKL


from_name: maru dubshinki

body:
On 9/1/06, charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com
<charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> stevertigo wrote
>
> > > "David Gerard" wrote
> > > > arXiv.org is reputed to perform a useful role. How's it look from your
> > > > view as an academic mathematician?
> >
> > > charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com wrote:
> > > Experts writing for experts. Even within the field this stuff is hardly readable.
> >
> > There are a few [[Open access]] repositories out there.
> > But is it really the case that "this stuff is hardly readable" or is
> > it the case that this stuff isnt linkable and therefore hard to
> > corroborate with other current research, as well as authoritative
> > references (like Wikipedia)?
>
> See a page such as [[K-theory (physics)]] to get the flavour.
>
> Note that it is not the failure to wikify and provide sources that makes this (I imagine) inaccessible to 99.9% of readers.
>
> Charles

Ow. My brain.

Incidentally, does anyone think that that article and [[K-theory]]
proper should be merged?

~maru


body:
On 9/1/06, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/09/06, Akash Mehta <draicone at gmail.com> wrote:
> > "Out of the 78,977 categories, 12,252 are not assigned to any article"
> > Is it that bad, or are these categories just assigned to user
> > talk/wikipedia/etc. namespace pages and therefore not counted?
>
> There's quite a few cats which serve only to group subcategories, and
> don't have any articles that belong in them.
>
> [[Category:American people by occupation]], for example - all the
> articles belong in subcategories, and as these are pretty disparate
> categories there's no article really dealing with the subject of the
> main category.
>
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray

Wait, isn't that encouraged? I had thought that most categories were
supposed to categorize categories, and only the terminal categories
were supposed to have articles in them - ex. [[Category:Free
software]] should have only categories in it, not articles on
software.

~maru


subject: [Wikipedia-l] MediaWiki for disability persons

body:
On 9/1/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at mutualaid.org> wrote:
> As an admin on Anarchopedia, one guy asked me to open "disability
> Anarchopedia". You can see our talk on the page
> http://eng.anarchopedia.org/index.php/User_talk:Millosh#Dear_Millosh.2C
> (from this heading to the rest of the page).
>
> Hm. There is no problem to open one or more MediaWikis, but the same
> MediaWiki engine would to nothing. I was thinking about changing of
> Monobook skin, but it seems that it is not enough.
>
> As this is not only Anarchopedia-related question; as well as it
> should be implemented on Wikimedian projects, too; as well as this is
> important issue -- I would like to hear is there any good solution for
> people with disabilities so they can be able to equally contribute to
> MediaWiki projects?
>
> I was thinking about using Emacs (it has wiki interface and I am sure
> that I found that it has some interfaces for persons with
> disabilities), but Emacs is too complex...
>
> Is there anything else which can be used? If not, is there a people
> who are willing to work on such issue? If not, may WMF fund a project
> with aim to solve this problem?

Well, I wouldn't used Emacs. All the remote modes seem to be designed
for the Oddmuse engine which runs the Emacs Wiki; I've only ever found
syntax highlighting packages and such for Mediawiki installations.

Now, using a text browser like w3-el and the emacspeak program might
be worth looking into, but that's a very general solution.

~maru


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 01/09/06, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> Why should anyone want to delete them?  Bibliographic surveys
> (particularly annotated bibliographies) would be particularly useful to
> encourage further study in many broad areas.

Well, yes. Annotation would be the best thing to try first - a good
bibliography is certainly not an *indiscriminate* collection of
information.

But if people go "ewwww" at the list, see if there's a wikiproject
that can put it to good use in project space. This works well with
"List of articles about x" that were popular before categories - such
lists may be superfluous with the category, but they're still very
useful for a wikiproject.

- d.


from_name: Martin A. Walker

body:
>David Gerard:
>there isn't a central bibliographical reference
>base, as some have mooted. If you can code something that will both
>work and be sensibly usable by casual editors, I suspect it would be
>most welcomed ...

Take a look at the Wikicat/Wikicite idea on meta:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicite
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicat

I was told recently that most of the Wikicite code has been written.

For the longer term.....at Wikimania we discussed a detailed fact-checking
process, possibly using Wikicite, and this would use a separate list of
sources, so a user who wants to check a fact in a validated article could
find the source for every fact...but that's at least 2 years away, I'd
say.  I understand that Wikicite/Wikicat would support such a feature.
See the link below for more detail:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pushing_to_validation

Martin A. Walker (User:Walkerma)


from_name: Frederick "FN" Noronha

body:
http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=32933
Wikipedia for more Indian languages on its website

By Frederick Noronha/IANS

Bangalore, Sep 1 (IANS) More and more Indians can contribute to the
volunteer-edited Wikipedia encyclopedia project, now rated among the
top 20 websites globally.

So says Jimmy "Jimbo" Wales, founder of the Web-based free content
multilingual project.

During a visit to India, Wales noted that volunteer contributions to
the Kannada Wikipedia had been growing 22 percent and Bengali 35
percent a month.

"These growth rates are fairly high. Of course, they're growing from a
small base. But Kannada already has over 5,000 articles and is still
growing. That's really exciting. Bengali too has a growth rate of 35
percent," he said.

"It's not as bad as it was a year ago. We had almost nothing then.
Now, languages like Bengali, Kannada, Marathi are in the 3,000-5,000
article range. Hindi, Assamese over 1,000. But Hindi, a very large
language, has only 1,500 entries. That's a little surprising," Wales
told IANS.

"We still have an enormous amount of work left to do. India has 23
official languages. English has more than 10,000 articles. We aim to
have 200,000 articles for every language spoken by a million people,"
he said.

Currently, Japanese is the only non-European language among the 'big
10' of Wikipedia.

Farsi, Arabic, Korean, Thai, Chinese and Bhasa Indonesia are among
those with over 10,000 articles. In the same category are Urdu,
Bangla, Hindi, Kannada, Marathi, Tamil and Telugu.

Wales, who took part in a conference on open content in India, said he
had just started a new project called the Wikiversity.

"We want to provide a free encyclopaedia to every single person in the
planet. We also want to provide all the tools to become literate," he
said.

"Our mission reaches far beyond the Internet - even people who don't
have access to electricity. There are over one million articles in
English. And English is less than one-third of the total work of
Wikipedia.

"Unless you have a thousand articles, I don't count it as a fully
active community," he told audiences in India, urging them to do more
in this regard.

With just four full-time employees, this volunteer-driven project has
become the 17th most visited website in the world, and currently has
some 200 servers across the globe.

Wales said Wikipedia was drawing more hits than the "BBC and the CNN
combined". He cited tests that show Wikipedia had only four mistakes
per article as against the Britannica's three.

"People should have this idea that Wikipedia is pretty good and that
it's getting better all the time. I think what was surprising for most
people was not that Wikipedia had four errors per article but that
Britannica had three (per article)!" he added.

"The focus of my effort is to see how to get the initial communities
going," he said, explaining that he planned to test-hire his fifth
employee in India to encourage content to be built up.

Wales referred to the Wikipedia on a CD or on mobile phones.

Webaroo.com, a project founded by IITian Rakesh Mathur that offers
software for users to download highly compressed web content, has also
offered portions of the Wikipedia through this format.

In keeping with its free nature, anyone could copy Wikipedia content,
print it and even sell it, Wales said.

Indian techies who interacted with him suggested the time was "right"
for Indian language content creation, since the tools for doing this
had been created, including projects such as IndLinux.

Wikipedia is run on a website that allows any visitor to edit its
content. It is written collaboratively by volunteers, allowing most
articles to be changed by almost anyone with access to the website.
Wikipedia's main servers are in Tampa, Florida, with additional
servers in Amsterdam and Seoul.

Wikipedia started as an English language project Jan 15, 2001, as a
complement to the now defunct Nupedia.

As of August 2006, Wikipedia has over five million articles in many
languages, including more than 1.3 million in the English-language
version. There are 229 language editions of Wikipedia, 16 of which
have over 50,000 articles each.

There has been controversy over Wikipedia's reliability and accuracy,
with the site receiving criticism for its susceptibility to vandalism,
uneven quality and inconsistency, systemic bias, and preference for
consensus over credentials.

IANS
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org  9822122436 +91-832-240-9490
http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com fredericknoronha at gmail.com


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [Commons-l] Some stats and info

body:
On 9/1/06, Fredrik Josefsson <fred_chessplayer at yahoo.se> wrote:
[snip]
> Finally, I am still looking for someone who runs Linux
> and understands MySql to make a specific
> administrator-list. A complete tutorial is available!

What exactly do you want? I don't quite understand the question, but I
can almost certainly generate whatever info you desire.


body:
On 01/09/06, Akash Mehta <draicone at gmail.com> wrote:

> I suggest any text not in the standard 'references' and 'external
> links' be <noinclude>'d, and the page left as it is but transcluded
> into the relevant pages (if it isn't already).

Transcluding blocks of article text (as opposed to, e.g., article box
templates) is not considered acceptable on en:.

- d.