body:
Personally, I think we should remove the image. We don't *need* it so we
can just remove it. The article might not have a nice graphic, but so
what? The license is too constrictive. I might even list it on Images
for deletion. Then again, I wonder how long it will take for someone to
say I'm POV pushing because I'm a Christian?

TBSDY

Tim Ahrentl?v wrote:
> Hi ?var,
>
> Just to summarize my points. I will not change the license because:
>
>  a. People have begun using it under the current license - trusting that the
> identity invested in the logo will not be tampered with.
>
>  b. Since the sole purpose of the logo *IS* to identify Atheism it does not
> make any sense to demand the logo must be able to be used for anything else.
> I find it suspicious that an encyclopedia service in this manner, actively
> tries to alter the reality it wants to document.
>
> c. The logo *is* free to be used for any purpose, commercially or otherwise.
>
> d. Logo's from other companies like Microsoft are shown in Wikipedia, but
> logos under a more lenient license like the IPU license are not allowed.
>
> I sincerely doubt that there is any value in an encyclopedia service that
> has taken upon itself, to purge identity symbols from its archives simply
> because the originators insist that their company name, company logo or
> whatever is protected from misuse. I would think that someone would choose
> to defend the "Wikipedia" name or logo, should I choose to misuse them for a
> competing service or for example a Porn site. I find this "Wikipedia"
> politic very unfair and un-reasonable.
>
> Now...
>
> You mention that you think I'm "unlikely to achieve anything" by going
> public with this mail correspondence because the "encyclopedia [is] designed
> to be read and edited by anyone. And images and content which does not fit
> the criteria is actively being purged out or replaced".
>
> In that case I hope that people reading this will actively try put the logo
> back, and complain about the person(s) that tries to purge the logo from the
> archives from what I only can interpret as some misguided zeal.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Tim Ahrentl?v
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason [mailto:avarab at gmail.com]
> Sent: 27. december 2004 15:57
> To: ta at ateist.org; English Wikipedia
> Subject: Re: The Invisible Pink Unicorn Logo on Wikipedia
>
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:36:48 +0100, Tim Ahrentl?v <ta at ateist.org> wrote:
>
>>Hi ?var,
>>
>>Thank you for the elaboration.
>>
>>I still don't see the problem. The logo is not "unfree". It is very much
>>free, and even more so than permitted by a traditional GNU license - as I
>>recall it.
>
>
> Well no, the problem is that it must be used to represent atheism
> specifically, and could not be placed on the agnosticism article for
> instance.
>
>
>>I do find it ironic that companies like Microsoft that has a long
>
> tradition
>
>>of fighting free licenses with their more commercial and restrictive
>>approach, are allowed to have their logo on Wikipedia, just because they
>>belong to some other commercial or "ill-replaced" category.
>>
>>As for the phrase "Now, since your image is not the Microsoft logo or some
>>ill-replaceable image like
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TrangBang.jpg
>
>>it will get deleted [..]", you might as well be telling me that the
>>Microsoft logos is allowed because they are Microsoft logos and the IPU is
>>not. It comes very close to telling me that the IPU logo, with the
>
> identity
>
>>invested in it, pr. definition simply is not allowed.
>
>
> That might have been a bit quick of me, what i meant that some images
> are more replaceable than others while some are unattainable under a
> free licence, like the images on past events such as the Tiananmen
> Square protests of 1989.
>
> Make no mistake, we're currently seeking replacement for *all* our
> none-free images, but since we have a large pile to go through it's
> best to start at the simple things, like images of everyday objects or
> not-so-notable subjects.
>
>
>>The way I interpret all this, is that I now have 2 options:
>>
>>1. Define the IPU logo as a product, so that it would be strictly
>
> commercial
>
>>and thus belong to a different set of rules.
>>
>>2. Alter the logo license to allow it to be used for whatever purpose, and
>>thus totally obliterate the identity for which it was specifically
>
> designed.
>
>>Neither of the above is fair to the general idea of the IPU logo, and both
>>would be very unfair (if not legally impossible by now) because there are
>>people out there that has adopted the logo on the current license - and
>
> for
>
>>what it represents. So I *cannot* alter the license by now, and based on
>
> the
>
>>explanation that I've been given so far, this is luckily not something
>
> that
>
>>I have any reason to regret.
>
>
> Well actually you can, the copyright holder (you) can re-issue his or
> her work under other licences at any time, all you would have to say
> is "i grant permission to use this image under the GFDL" and it would
> be so.
>
> However since it's pretty clear at this point that you have no desire
> to do so the purpose of this email is to better explain and elaborate
> on my intentions and what i meant.
>
>
>>Because...
>>
>>We are talking about a free encyclopedia service that actively wants to
>>alter the identity of the very object it sets out to document. It even
>
> wants
>
>>to purge itself from facts of reality that does not conform to some dogma
>
> of
>
>>how the reality "should" be like. (It gives me associations to when Libya
>>removed certain countries from the World Map *LOL*) These matters can
>
> hardly
>
>>be to be a desirable attributes of a media type from whom, one should be
>>able to expect objectivity.
>>
>>As far as I understand you, this is not your doing ;-) You're merely
>>relaying some facts to me and I'm glad that you brought this matter to my
>>attention. Thanks.
>>
>>I will cc this mail correspondence to the mailing list mail address you
>>provided to me, hoping that this matter can be settled in a prudent and
>>rational way. Should this process, in contrary to my expectations, result
>
> in
>
>>the logo being removed, I will also upload our mail correspondence on
>>www.invisiblepinkunicorn.com, urging the visitors to complain about this
>>unfair and irrational ruling - and in the process I fear - undermining
>>Wikipedia's credibility.
>
>
> You can of course list this email on your website asking people to
> object, i have no objection to you posting our email correspondence
> since it was known all along that this was not a private email.
>
> However you're unlikely to achive anything by it, Wikipedia is
> specifically, to quote the Wikipedia article: "an online multilingual
> 'copyleft' encyclopedia designed to be read and edited by anyone.".
> And images and content which does not fit the criteria is actively
> being purged out or replaced.
>
>
>>Thank you for your time.
>>
>>Kind Regards,
>>Tim Ahrentl?v
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason [mailto:avarab at gmail.com]
>>Sent: 27. december 2004 13:32
>>To: ta at ateist.org
>>Subject: Re: The Invisible Pink Unicorn Logo on Wikipedia
>>
>>On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:34:19 +0100, Tim Ahrentl?v <ta at ateist.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi ?var,
>>>
>>>A simple search on Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft)
>>
>>shows
>>
>>>the Microsoft logo. A click on the Encarta link
>>>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Encarta) shows the Encarta logo,
>>
>>and
>>
>>>so on.
>>>
>>>Are these logos under the GNU license? Can these logos be used for
>>
>>whatever
>>
>>>purpose *you* may choose? Can they even be used at all, without
>>
>>Microsoft's
>>
>>>written consent? I must admit I do not understand why the IPU license is
>
> a
>
>>>problem for Wikipedia.
>>>
>>>Do you write to Microsoft or many of the other very restrictive license
>>>holders, informing them that their logos and identities *must* be
>
> allowed
>
>>to
>>
>>>be used for any purpose imaginable? I find that hard to believe. I also
>>
>>find
>>
>>>it counterproductive to Wikipedia's role of simply relaying facts.
>>>
>>>?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason, please allow me to doubt that your request
>>
>>actually
>>
>>>conforms to the standards set by Wikipedia, and please be aware that I
>>
>>will
>>
>>>protest to this seemingly unfair and illogical ruling.
>>>
>>>Mvh
>>>Tim Ahrentl?v
>>
>>Not all images on wikipedia are "free", some, like the ones you
>>mentioned are fair use logos, and others are under a none-commercial
>>licence and more others have other terms, see
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_by_copyright_status
>>
>>There is an active movement to purge these images from wikipedia
>>and/or replace them with free ones which can be used without
>>restriction, a central staging area for this "operation" is
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images , your
>>image got listed there (not by me) stating that it "imposes condition
>>that [the] symbol must represent atheism".
>>
>>Now, since your image is not the Microsoft logo or some
>>ill-replaceable image like
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TrangBang.jpg it will get deleted
>>on January 10, 2005 (30 days from the initial listing) unless we can
>>get a licence for it which is compatible with the GFDL.
>>
>>The reason for doing this is because wikipedia is not simply a fact
>>relaying device, but a free encyclopedia, most other languages than
>>the english version of it do not even accept none-free images and en.
>>is actively phasing them out.
>>
>>As for any "official" protest please make them if you desire to do so,
>>the english mailing list (wikien-l at wikipedia.org) would probably be
>>the best way to do so, however note that I'm in no way making any sort
>>of "ruling" on this, I simply saw the listing of the image on Possibly
>>unfree images and decided to E-Mail the author of it to request that
>>he grant permission to use it under a compatible licence.
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason [mailto:avarab at gmail.com]
>>>Sent: 27. december 2004 02:48
>>>To: ta at ateist.org
>>>Subject: Re: The Invisible Pink Unicorn Logo on Wikipedia
>>>
>>>On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:04:37 +0100, Tim Ahrentl?v <ta at ateist.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi ?var,
>>>>
>>>>The IPU license is available here:
>>>>http://www.invisiblepinkunicorn.com/ipu_logo_license.htm
>>>>
>>>>I fail to see what this license lacks in regard to the more formal GNU
>>>>license. Basically, the license allows *anyone* to use the logo for
>>
>>*any*
>>
>>>>purpose (also commercial!) as long as it is used to represent atheism.
>>
>>The
>>
>>>>logo no longer belongs to me or www.invisiblepinkunicorn.com, but to a
>>>>purpose. I don't see that it can get any better or more public domain
>>
>>than
>>
>>>>that.
>>>>
>>>>Please elaborate on what seems to be missing from this current
>
> license,
>
>>>>because I don't see any problems.
>>>>
>>>>Kind Regards,
>>>>Tim Ahrentl?v
>>>>
>>>
>>>The problem specifically is the "used to represent atheism" part,
>>>which does not give permission to use the image for porpoises other
>>>than the representation of atheism which conflicts with PD and the
>>>GFDL which allow the use of material for any porpoise.
>>>
>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason [mailto:avarab at gmail.com]
>>>>Sent: 26. december 2004 23:26
>>>>To: ta at invisiblepinkunicorn.com
>>>>Subject: The Invisible Pink Unicorn Logo on Wikipedia
>>>>
>>>>Notice: Consider this a none-private email.
>>>>
>>>>The Invisible Pink Unicorn Logo on wikipedia will be deleted on the
>>>>next few days if it is not placed under a licence compatible with the
>>>>GNU Free Documentation Licence or similar within the next few days,
>>>>would you be willing to dual licence the image under the IPU Logo
>>>>License and the GFDL so that it can be used in the article?
>>>>
>>>>URLs:
>>>>IPU Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn
>>>>IPU Photo:
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Invisible_Pink_Unicorn_Logo.png
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>


list: commons-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Commons-l] category problem

body:
No, there was indeed a problem, I checked and also saw it lacking, and
I had not watched the category before.

Andre Engels

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:35:35 +0100, notafish <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Sabine,
>
> I don't see any problem with the category listing. When I click on the
> category http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_pronunciation,
> I do see your file listed. The only thing is that it is displayed with
> a music icon, but it does appear without any problem. Maybe you did
> not wait long enough and the cache of your brwser had another version
> of the category page in store, and did not update when you looked at
> it ?
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Best,
>
> Delphine
>
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:38:46 +0100, Sabine Cretella
> <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, during the last days I uploaded several soundfiles in Italian and
> > German - the strange thing is they are not included in the category
> > listing even if on the page of the file itself the category is being showed.
> >
> > Example:
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:It-Felice_Anno_Nuovo.ogg
> > On the bottom of the page there is
> >
> > Categories
> > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&article=Image%3AIt-Felice_Anno_Nuovo.ogg>:
> >
> > GFDL <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:GFDL> | Italian
> > pronunciation
> > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_pronunciation>
> >
> > But when I click on Italian pronunciation it is not listed.
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_pronunciation
> >
> > So what is wrong?
> >
> > When I upload files I use a Summary like this:
> > own recording [[User:SabineCretella|SabineCretella]]  {{GFDL}}
> > [[Category:Italian pronunciation]]
> >
> > Thanks for any hint!
> >
> > Best, Sabine
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Commons-l mailing list
> > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Religious intolerance

body:
On 28 Dec 2004, at 04:12, Mark Williamson wrote:

> Without commenting on my side on the issue, I think I should note that
> paganism is a religion as well, and thus symbols of paganism are
> religious symbols.

Yes and no.

The 1913 Webster defines "pagan" as follows:

>> Pagan \Pa"gan\, a. [L. paganus of or pertaining to the country,
>>    pagan. See Pagan, n.]
>>    Of or pertaining to pagans; relating to the worship or the
>>    worshipers of false goods; heathen; idolatrous, as, pagan
>>    tribes or superstitions.
>>    [1913 Webster]

According to Princeton University's WordNet (2.0) however, the
definition goes:

>> pagan
>>      adj : not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and
>>            Islam [syn: heathen, heathenish, ethnic]
>>      n : a person who does not acknowledge your God [syn: heathen,
>>          gentile, infidel]

So according to Webster's definition, a pagan festival (such as
Yuletide) would indeed have been a religious one.

If you however follow the more contemporary WordNet, the word "pagan"
does ''not'' necessarily say anything about whether or not a pagan
festival and/or person is religious. It only says that the pagan does
NOT acknowledge ''your'' God (ie./and/or the God of Judaism,
Christianity or whatever).

I ''personally'' find that the Christmas of our present is a mostly
secular holiday. (I'm going by how the majority of people in the world
currently celebrate it.)
Interpretations on the secular or religious status of Yuletide may
differ. But then I didn't claim Yuletide to have been 100% secular. I
wrote:

>> If (and only if) you consider Yuletide to have been a religious
>> holiday,
>> it was a NON-Christian religious holiday. But AFAIK Yuletide was a
>> seasonal festival in the first instance -- only possibly with
>> associated
>> (non-Christian) religious connotations in the second instance.

To sum up:
- One can argue about the religiousness of Yuletide.
- One can argue about whether or not Christmas is a religious holiday
today. (I think it's pretty secular, but that's only me.)
- What's certain though is that Christmas was extensively celebrated as
a Christian religious holiday for several centuries in between time.
- It's also certain that Yuletide, the original Christmas, was not
actually a Christian holiday.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Using big categories

body:
Hoi,
Big categories were a big systems problem. In order to make this problem
manageable, the amount or articles that are shown at a time have been
limited to 200 at a time. This proved to be rather akward when you want
to find an article one starting with an character at the end of the
alphabet. MukeUTF-8 (nick on IRC) came up with a simple elegant
solution. He created some code to have a Table of Content (TOC) and hid
it in a template. The first implementation is in
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Lingua_Latina
<http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Lingua_Latina> and uses
Template:Categorytoc This is a template for use from A to Z.

On the nl:wiktionary we have lower case characters so the code was
expanded in Sjabloon:CategorieTOC and it can be seen at work in
http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Categorie:Woorden_in_het_Nederlands
<http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Categorie:Woorden_in_het_Nederlands> I
have also implemented a Template:CategoryTOC (AZaz) in Commons and a
Template:CategoriaTOC
<http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Template:CategoriaTOC> in the Italian
wiktioanry.

My thanks go out to Muke, this is a great improvement on the usability
for categories :)

Thanks,
    GerardM
<http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Categorie:Woorden_in_het_Nederlands>


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Using big categories


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: Using big categories

body:
Simply great! Thank you!

Ciao, Sabine

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> Big categories were a big systems problem. In order to make this
> problem manageable, the amount or articles that are shown at a time
> have been limited to 200 at a time. This proved to be rather akward
> when you want .....


from_name: Pawe³ 'Ausir' Dembowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Using big categories

body:
I also find it unfortunate that not all subcategories are shown on the
first page of the category, and it is even not indicated in any way
that there might be more of them to a first-time visitor...

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org


from_name: John Collison

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Using big categories

body:
This is slightly off topic, but I'll say it anyway. IMO a feature
needed in categorisation is a "collapse subcategories" view - basically
you click this and instead of showing you subcategories it shows all
the articles in the subcategories (and in their subcategories...) with
the articles in that cat. This would be very useful in category areas
with very few articles in them.

A Happy New Year to everyone,
John (Ludraman)

On 28 Dec 2004, at 22:49, Pawe? 'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:

> I also find it unfortunate that not all subcategories are shown on the
> first page of the category, and it is even not indicated in any way
> that there might be more of them to a first-time visitor...
>
> --
> Ausir
> Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
> http://pl.wikipedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Templates + Categories

body:
Hi,

I?just found that there is a different behaviour that before the upgrade to
1.4 regarding templates and categories. It seems that a category in a
template doesn't automatically insert an article in a category like with
Mediawiki 1.3.x

The teamplate+category system is the base for many wiktionaries including fr,
nl, it, hi, gi, etc. It's important that this works.

Please, can someone explain what did change regarding this in the new 1.4
release and get it working again as before the upgrade.

Examples:
1. http://hi.wiktionary.org/wiki/English
http://hi.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????:?????????

2. http://hi.wiktionary.org/wiki/fran?ais
http://hi.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????:??????????

Thanks to all,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


list: wikien-l

from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: GNAA on VFD for the fifth time

body:
Here's the thing: the GNAA aren't exclusively a trolling phenomenon on
slashdot, so redirecting to ./ trolling phenomenon would be misleading.

TBSDY

Robin Shannon wrote:
> When i first heard about GNAA on some slashdot post (or mailing list
> or something, i cant remember...), i didnt have a clue what it was
> talking about, so the first thing i did was go to [[GNAA]]. Equaly as
> this thread has progresed SOLLOG was mentioned and i went to
> [[SOLLOG]], and both times i found exactly what i wanted to know to
> put the origanal posts in context. I would much prefer blanking of the
> article and a redirect to slashdot trolling (or whatever). It is
> important the next person who comes along can type in [[GNAA]] and
> find the info they want. For me wikipedia is the new google. When i
> dont understand a term, i wikipedia it, and i think that this is
> something that should be kept in mind on VfD.
>
> paz y amor,
> [[User:The bellman]]
>
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:26:47 +1100, csherlock at ljh.com.au
> <csherlock at ljh.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Guys, how many times are we going to list this before we stop this abuse
>>of process? This is now the fifth time the article has been on votes for
>>deletion and that sucks.
>>
>
>


from_name: notafish

subject: [Commons-l] category problem

body:
Weird, any idea why *I* saw it there ?

Delphine

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:25:04 +0100, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> No, there was indeed a problem, I checked and also saw it lacking, and
> I had not watched the category before.
>
> Andre Engels
>
>
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:35:35 +0100, notafish <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Sabine,
> >
> > I don't see any problem with the category listing. When I click on the
> > category http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_pronunciation,
> > I do see your file listed. The only thing is that it is displayed with
> > a music icon, but it does appear without any problem. Maybe you did
> > not wait long enough and the cache of your brwser had another version
> > of the category page in store, and did not update when you looked at
> > it ?
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Delphine
> >
> > On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:38:46 +0100, Sabine Cretella
> > <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, during the last days I uploaded several soundfiles in Italian and
> > > German - the strange thing is they are not included in the category
> > > listing even if on the page of the file itself the category is being showed.
> > >
> > > Example:
> > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:It-Felice_Anno_Nuovo.ogg
> > > On the bottom of the page there is
> > >
> > > Categories
> > > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&article=Image%3AIt-Felice_Anno_Nuovo.ogg>:
> > >
> > > GFDL <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:GFDL> | Italian
> > > pronunciation
> > > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_pronunciation>
> > >
> > > But when I click on Italian pronunciation it is not listed.
> > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_pronunciation
> > >
> > > So what is wrong?
> > >
> > > When I upload files I use a Summary like this:
> > > own recording [[User:SabineCretella|SabineCretella]]  {{GFDL}}
> > > [[Category:Italian pronunciation]]
> > >
> > > Thanks for any hint!
> > >
> > > Best, Sabine
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Commons-l mailing list
> > > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Commons-l mailing list
> > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> >
>


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Recent language changes

body:
Andre Engels wrote:
> * Should interwiki links to tokipona: be removed?
> * Should interwiki links to zh-cn and zh-tw be changed into single links to zh?

I offer an opinion simply as another editor, not as a matter of
top-down policy, that interwiki links to tokipona should be removed,
and links to zh-cn and zh-tw should be changed into single links.

--Jimbo


from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] $2 in Mediawiki:Nogomatch

body:
The argument $2 in [[Mediawiki:Nogomatch]], which used to return the
search query, appears to be coming up blank now.  Is this a momentary
glitch, a bug, or new behavior--and if the last, is there any way to
duplicate this functionality?

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


from_name: pinco

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Christmas/Yuletide

body:
Jens Ropers ha scritto:

> I.
> Christmas is the holiday previously known as Yule or Yuletide. It was
> a  northern European seasonal festival since time immemorial. If (and
> only  if) you consider Yuletide to have been a religious holiday, it
> was a  NON-Christian religious holiday. But AFAIK Yuletide was a
> seasonal  festival in the first instance -- only possibly with
> associated  (non-Christian) religious connotations in the second
> instance.
>
> II.
> Yuletide became known as Christmas thanks to the goody old
> three-E-method (of latter-day Microsoft fame): Embrace, Extend,
> Extinguish. The Christian church of the day was running a major
> conversion effort. They quickly found they couldn't beat old and
> cherished traditions such as Yuletide. So they accepted it as a
> legitimate festival into the church calendar, they added Christian
> symbolism and merged it with Christian ideology (most notably the
> holiday was "calculated"/defined to match Jesus of Nazareth's birth),
> and finally the entire festival got usurped and monopolized by
> Christianity. (Yuletide symbols/traditions such as Christmas trees
> and  mistletoe still remain. Even Santa Claus is based on a Yuletide
> figure,  I hear.)

Hi,

I'm a little surprised, I knew that Christians moved the celebration of
Jesus' birthday from January 6th to December 25th after the
Constantine's edict by which the converted Emperor decided to unify Sol
Invictus and Mithraic Sun cults of the time. with the Jesus' birthday.
The fact that Christmas coincides with Yuletide is due to the fact that
all over the world there were and still are Sun's rebirth (solstice)
celebrations.

Am I wrong?

Even about Santa Claus I knew a different story (e.g.:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11063b.htm) :(

Can someone else give me more information?

Thanks and happy new year to all people following the gregorian calendar,
Nino

PS I, an atheist (not a pagan), believe that Christmas remains a
Christian celebration coinciding with a solstice.

http://www.vessella.it (italiano, esperanto, kiswahili, english)
http://www.changamano.org (Iniziative di solidariet? per la Tanzania)
http://www.lernado.it (Articoli di quotidiani della Tanzania, Corso di lingua swahili, Corso di lingua esperanto, Vocabolario esperanto-italiano, Jifunze lugha ya Kiesperanto, Kamusi ya Kiesperanto)


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] 2 transwiki issues

body:
Two issues have recently arisen out of [[User:216.177.2.75]]'s
(=Poccil?) recent flurry of material by Transwiki from Wikipedia to
Wikisource.
    1. Copyvio texts should not be transferred.  In one recent situation
[[Half Caste]], a recent poem, was transferred before any discussion of
the copyright ever took place on Wikipedia.  The original contributor
(rightly or wrongly) put the poem into Wikipedia, and that is where that
matter should be discussed.  That is where he would (presumably) have
set up a talk page where he could be approached.  For Wikisource's
purposes, the transferrer IS the contributor, and he is the one that
represents that the material is not a copyright infringement.

    In another instance [[Mens Mental Health]] there was a discussion of
the copyright status on Wikipedia, which seems to have been resolved in
favour of keeping the article.  It was being transferred because it was
judged to be a source text.  (There is some question about whether the
author/contributor was revising the text for inclusion on Wikipedia,
which would disqualify it as a source text, but that is a secondary
issue.)  Of course the GFDL allows the material to be copied, and that
permission should extend to Wikisource.  The problem lies in the fact
that the Transwiki was being performed in conjunction with the Wikipedia
deletion process.  The Wikipedia deletion would also have broken the
link of permissions since there would no longer be an easy access to the
discussion that clarified the copyright status.  Again it is the
transferrer who should be able to deal with such questions; making the
transfer as an anonymous IP does not help that process.  Wikisource
should not become a dumping ground for Wikipedia's copyvio problems.

    2. The other issue has to do with the entry of the list of editors
on the talk page of a transwikied article.  I understand perfectly that
this is intended to satisfy certain requirements under the GFDL.  The
problem is that this is a bare list of users.  This is useless without
links to what those edits really were.  The copyright in source works
rests with the original author, and including works from the public
domain does not give rise to new copyrights.  Public domain also takes
precedence over the GFDL which only licenses what needs to be licensed.
Some edits may be copyrightable, notably eidts to introductory
material.  Other edits such as spelling corrections, format
modifications, adding convenient headings or wikifications are not
copyrightable.  Wikisource needs to know exactly what was done?  A
"correction" of an author's idiosyncratic spelling, for example, needs
to be documented.  As a repository of source documents Wikisource also
needs to be concerned with the integrity of the text.

Ec


body:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:20:09 -0700, Muke Tever <hotblack at frath.net> wrote:
> The argument $2 in [[Mediawiki:Nogomatch]], which used to return the
> search query, appears to be coming up blank now.  Is this a momentary
> glitch, a bug, or new behavior--and if the last, is there any way to
> duplicate this functionality?

Okay, seems to have been a glitch, as it's working again now.

	*Muke!
--
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LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
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http://wiki.frath.net/


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Templates + Categories

body:
Le Wednesday 29 December 2004 19:46, Ian Monroe a ?crit :
> No, I didn't. :)
>
> It does look like its still working for us. Its always been the case
> that if you add a Category to an already created template, the pages
> with the template have to be touched (there's a bot for this) for the
> category to be applied. Maybe this is what is happening?

No, that's not the problem. It's probably a problem of namespace within the
Hindi Wiktionary.

Regards,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Using big categories

body:
Pawe? 'Ausir' Dembowski (fallout at lexx.eu.org) [041229 13:58]:

> I also find it unfortunate that not all subcategories are shown on the
> first page of the category, and it is even not indicated in any way
> that there might be more of them to a first-time visitor...

I filed bugs on this (one that all subcats aren't shown on first page, and
one that the number of subcats or articles is incorrect). At present I
assume the devs are busy getting 1.4 to work properly ...

- d.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Robert Scott Horning

subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for Wiki Project

body:
Steve Rapaport wrote:

>Against the event of possible REALLY BIG uh-ohs, I would like to propose
>a project for permanently archiving certain wikis:
>
>*HowDoesItWorkWiki
>*SpeciesWiki
>*(Condensed) Wikipedia
>
>By permanent, I am thinking something that could survive the movie "The
>Day After Tomorrow", even if it struck worldwide and lasted over 100
>years.  (I hear the movie lasted nearly that long!  :-)
>
>The most effective method proven to last over a millenium is clay tablets
>inside clay envelopes (Thanks, Enki of Sumeria) but there may be something
>higher-tech today that would work just as well and be less
>labor-intensive.
>
>Steve
>
One of the best methods of preserving written information that I've seen
is to etch the information onto some sort of gold leaf (of various forms
of thickness), with perhaps some polymer substrate as an assist.

Indeed some of the best CD-ROM recordings are just that, which is one
reason why they last, presumably under archival conditions, for over 100
years.

If you can make the layers of gold thicker, and coat the surface with
synthetic diamond rather than the cheap plastics like you have with most
common CD formats (some of which are deliberately designed to decay in a
matter of months to a couple of years) it could turn out to be something
quite permanent.  Even scratch resistant to toddlers :)  I've heard of
ways to deposit thin films of diamond on materials by submersing them in
an environment of methane where the material is quite hot, causing the
methane to decompose into H2 and leaving the carbon behind on the
material you want to coat.

A similar system could also be done (in a somewhat related fashion)
where instead of recording the information as a binary format, it would
be inscribed with common letters in some sort of micro print that could
then be read with a very simple lens system.... something rather
low-tech that could even be recreated with very simple medeval level
technology.

The advantage of going about a system like this is that it takes
advantage of current technology considerations, but does not require a
technological infrastructure in order to be read.  Other methods of
transmitting information on the order of 1000's of years include writing
on gold plates, in part due to the fact that gold does not corrode.  The
real trick is to make the gold somehow unvaluable so that people finding
the archived information don't decide to melt the gold down for other
things if they don't find the information immediately useful, such as
what the Spanish did in Mexico when they found the record vault of the
Mayans.  The same also happened in Egypt during most of the 19th Century
(and earlier).

Clay tablets could provide that sort of stability, especially if you
make them ceramic instead, and don't suffer from being super valuable
like gold for other things.  The #1 problem is that they are more prone
to environmental damage and you can't put the detail in so finely as you
could with gold (i.e. archiving large quantities of information are
pretty much out).

-----------

In terms of something realistic that Wikipedians could do and contribute
toward such a project, it would be nice to gather information on how to
recreate basic industries.  This would include things like how to make
steel from nothing but raw iron ore and a few buckets of coal, building
an internal combustion engine, basic dam construction, running a
water-powered mill (sawmill or grain), or how to harness a horse
effectively.  Books covering these subjects have been written, but they
havn't been updated for a number of years, and assume a technological
infrastruction that in many cases doesn't even exist now except in some
emerging nations.  Besides the doom and gloom scenerios, it could also
be a valuable aid  for some of these developing nations on how to make
stuff and build industries on a comparatively small-scale (a few dozen
workers).  Once information like this is gathered, finding preservation
methods for the information would be much easier to achieve.

--
Robert Scott Horning
218 Sunstone Circle
Logan, UT 84321
(435) 753-3330
robert_horning at netzero.net


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: michael rueetschli

subject: [Wikipedia-l] start a new Wikipedia / Wikinews

body:
Hy @ all

As first, sorry my bad english... my preferred languages are German and French.

I'm interested to start
- http://ch.wikipedia.org and
- http://ch.wikinews.org

details on ch.wikipedia.org:
Switzerland is especially: The national languages are German, French,
Italian, and Romansh and this by only 7 millions habitants.
There's already a Page for swiss users:
http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal/ but i think that's a bad seller. I
have further plans with respectable and multilingual content for
Switzerland.

details on ch.wikinews.org:
same motivation like ch.wikipedia.org and
Switzerland has a strong economy with a lot's of interesting news.
Switzerland is not a member of the European Union. And so, we have
other interestes than germany.
and so on.

Are there also Plans like this?
Can i help?
If there no plans i will to start first with wikipedia.ch and secondly
wikinews.ch.
Are someone interesstet to help?

best regards
Michael Rueetschli
business data processing specialist
Switzerland


body:
In general Wikipedias are being divided by language, not by country.
Sure, Swiss users will have different interests than German, French or
Italian ones, but those are I think better served by adding Swiss
content to the existing Wikipedias than by creating a new,
multi-lingual Wikipedia.

Andre Engels

> As first, sorry my bad english... my preferred languages are German and French.
>
> I'm interested to start
> - http://ch.wikipedia.org and
> - http://ch.wikinews.org
>
> details on ch.wikipedia.org:
> Switzerland is especially: The national languages are German, French,
> Italian, and Romansh and this by only 7 millions habitants.
> There's already a Page for swiss users:
> http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal/ but i think that's a bad seller. I
> have further plans with respectable and multilingual content for
> Switzerland.
>
> details on ch.wikinews.org:
> same motivation like ch.wikipedia.org and
> Switzerland has a strong economy with a lot's of interesting news.
> Switzerland is not a member of the European Union. And so, we have
> other interestes than germany.
> and so on.
>
> Are there also Plans like this?
> Can i help?
> If there no plans i will to start first with wikipedia.ch and secondly
> wikinews.ch.
> Are someone interesstet to help?
>
> best regards
> Michael Rueetschli
> business data processing specialist
> Switzerland
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
> In general Wikipedias are being divided by language, not by country.
> Sure, Swiss users will have different interests than German, French or
> Italian ones, but those are I think better served by adding Swiss
> content to the existing Wikipedias than by creating a new,
> multi-lingual Wikipedia.
>
> Andre Engels
>

Hello Andre

Yes it's ok to difided by language, but there is already a "Portal"
for switzerland at http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal and my idea was to
improve the efficiency of this "portal".
My first mind was to update this site. And so i make the suggestion to
start a new wikipedia.
Are there other proposals to make this site more attractive???

Michael

> > As first, sorry my bad english... my preferred languages are German and French.
> >
> > I'm interested to start
> > - http://ch.wikipedia.org and
> > - http://ch.wikinews.org
> >
> > details on ch.wikipedia.org:
> > Switzerland is especially: The national languages are German, French,
> > Italian, and Romansh and this by only 7 millions habitants.
> > There's already a Page for swiss users:
> > http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal/ but i think that's a bad seller. I
> > have further plans with respectable and multilingual content for
> > Switzerland.
> >
> > details on ch.wikinews.org:
> > same motivation like ch.wikipedia.org and
> > Switzerland has a strong economy with a lot's of interesting news.
> > Switzerland is not a member of the European Union. And so, we have
> > other interestes than germany.
> > and so on.
> >
> > Are there also Plans like this?
> > Can i help?
> > If there no plans i will to start first with wikipedia.ch and secondly
> > wikinews.ch.
> > Are someone interesstet to help?
> >
> > best regards
> > Michael Rueetschli
> > business data processing specialist
> > Switzerland
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


from_name: Paweł 'Ausir' Dembowski

body:
mr> Yes it's ok to difided by language, but there is already a "Portal"
mr> for switzerland at http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal and my idea was to
mr> improve the efficiency of this "portal".
mr> My first mind was to update this site. And so i make the suggestion to
mr> start a new wikipedia.
mr> Are there other proposals to make this site more attractive???

The portal is there to direct people who are looking for Wikipedia by
the top-domain code to Wikipedias in the languages used in
Switzerland. There is no further need to make a Swiss Wikipedia, as
the Swiss are welcome to use the German, French and Italian ones.

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org


from_name: Stephen Forrest

body:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:32:41 +0100, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> In general Wikipedias are being divided by language, not by country.
> Sure, Swiss users will have different interests than German, French or
> Italian ones, but those are I think better served by adding Swiss
> content to the existing Wikipedias than by creating a new,
> multi-lingual Wikipedia.

I agree with this philosophy entirely as it applies to Wikipedia.
However, I think the poster may have a point about Wikinews.

Locale and nationality have more importance for news content than for
encyclopaedic content.  The sort of news relevant to a French speaker
in Quebec or in Cameroon may be entirely different from that relevant
to those in France.

I'm not suggesting separating wikinews sites by country or locale:
that's the wrong idea.  Mixing languages in one wikinews site is a bad
idea, and articles in the same language should be housed together, as
many can be re-used (such as those which concern international
events).

Here's a suggestion to resolve some of this: have a country or
locale-specific news index page on all wikinews sites, and make the
URL <languagecode>.wikinews.<countrycode> redirect to this page.  For
example, en.wikinews.ca would redirect to a page on en.wikinews.org
indexing English-language Canadian news, while fr.wikinews.ca would
redirect to a similar page for French-language Canadian news on
fr.wikinews.org.

regards,

Steve


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Advice needed on name/place of article

body:
At the moment there is a growing campaign in New Zealand to change the
design of the New Zealand flag. See http://www.nzflag.com/

There is, for the moment, some information on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_New_Zealand but it's limited and I
want to expand it, in the process hopefully getting a bunch of people
involved in Wikipedia who probably otherwise wouldn't.

My question is, do you think I should simply expand
[Flag_of_New_Zealand] or should I create a new page dedicated to the
changing of the New Zealand flag design, and if the later what do you
think it should be called (is there any precedent for this type of
article)?

Thanks,
Christiaan


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

body:
Kaixo!

> There is no further need to make a Swiss Wikipedia, as
> the Swiss are welcome to use the German, French and Italian ones.

And don't forget Alemannic ( http://als.wikipedia.org/ )
and raetho-roman ( http://rm.wikipedia.org/ )

(If they aren't in the "Swiss" portal, they should be added)

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
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from_name: Steve Rapaport

body:
Hello all, I'm new to the list, but some of you know me from the .En wiki.

Greetings for the new year -- we're now halfway through the Uh-oh's
decade, and it seems to be living up to its name quite well.

Against the event of possible REALLY BIG uh-ohs, I would like to propose
a project for permanently archiving certain wikis:

*HowDoesItWorkWiki
*SpeciesWiki
*(Condensed) Wikipedia

By permanent, I am thinking something that could survive the movie "The
Day After Tomorrow", even if it struck worldwide and lasted over 100
years.  (I hear the movie lasted nearly that long!  :-)

The most effective method proven to last over a millenium is clay tablets
inside clay envelopes (Thanks, Enki of Sumeria) but there may be something
higher-tech today that would work just as well and be less
labor-intensive.

This type of idea is always obvious in retrospect.  Shall we think ahead?

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_new_projects#WikiCapsule

Steve


body:
Good point but let's not talk about it just yet, since it would start a
long string of fruitless discussions on the possible nature and scope of
the catastrophe, which we can't possibly predict.   Who knows?

It's best I think to avoid that entirely and think it two timeframes:

1. Catastrophe survivors (0-20 years)
    They will need a good survival handbook, followed in the near term by
lots of "How does it work?" information, and these should be possible
to find even if there's no electricity or municipal authority.

Paper or books in sealed fireproof containers, that sort of thing.

2. Long-term (20-6000 years)
    Wikipedia on permanent media.  "How does it work" is important too.
Possible media include:
Acid-free paper in an appropriate climactic region (a la Dead Sea Scrolls),
   (but climate change may make this useless)
Engraved messages in hard, corrosion-resistant metal
Ceramic (A la Enki)

More suggestions welcome.

Steve

Traroth said:
> In my opinion, it's a good idea, but one important
> factor is : in the case of a major catastrophe, how
> could survivors get access to the saved data ?
>
> Traroth


from_name: Traroth

body:
In my opinion, it's a good idea, but one important
factor is : in the case of a major catastrophe, how
could survivors get access to the saved data ?

Traroth

D?couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails !
Cr?ez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/


body:
If your aim is only to create a more accessible
portal, just have a look on www.wikipedia.be, a
belgian portal with links to the french, dutch and
german Wikipedias.

Traroth

>
> Hello Andre
>
> Yes it's ok to difided by language, but there is
> already a "Portal"
> for switzerland at http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal
> and my idea was to
> improve the efficiency of this "portal".
> My first mind was to update this site. And so i make
> the suggestion to
> start a new wikipedia.
> Are there other proposals to make this site more
> attractive???
>
> Michael

D?couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails !
Cr?ez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/


from_name: Andre Engels

body:
Personally, I am of the opinion that the Swiss portal is better than
the Belgian one.

Andre Engels

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:49:07 +0100 (CET), Traroth <traroth at yahoo.fr> wrote:
> If your aim is only to create a more accessible
> portal, just have a look on www.wikipedia.be, a
> belgian portal with links to the french, dutch and
> german Wikipedias.


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Sorry, this is unacceptable.

The ch: subdomain for both Wikipedia and Wikinews is reserved for the
Chamorro language of Guam. You may think it's a bit obscure, but it's
their national language and it has a few hundred thousand speakers.

Currently, the policy (as far as I know) is to have no separate
Wikipedias or Wikinewses for different countries, only for different
languages (thus, since Mexico and Spain both speak Spanish, there will
be a Spanish version but no Mexican or Spain-ish version).

If you are interested in a separate Wikipedia for Swiss German (as
people seemed to be doing at ch.wikipedia until recently, this is not
allowed), there is already the Allemannic Wikipedia which has some
Swiss users already I believe, but it seeks to integrate content from
all Allemannic varieties (thus including not only Swiss varieties but
Austrian, Liechtensteinian, Alsatian, etc).

There already exists a separate portal for Switzerland, with links to
the different Swiss Wikipedias (ie Deutsch, Fran?ais, Italiano, and
Rumantsch Grischun).

Mark

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:11:06 +0100, michael rueetschli
<m.rueetschli at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hy @ all
>
> As first, sorry my bad english... my preferred languages are German and French.
>
> I'm interested to start
> - http://ch.wikipedia.org and
> - http://ch.wikinews.org
>
> details on ch.wikipedia.org:
> Switzerland is especially: The national languages are German, French,
> Italian, and Romansh and this by only 7 millions habitants.
> There's already a Page for swiss users:
> http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal/ but i think that's a bad seller. I
> have further plans with respectable and multilingual content for
> Switzerland.
>
> details on ch.wikinews.org:
> same motivation like ch.wikipedia.org and
> Switzerland has a strong economy with a lot's of interesting news.
> Switzerland is not a member of the European Union. And so, we have
> other interestes than germany.
> and so on.
>
> Are there also Plans like this?
> Can i help?
> If there no plans i will to start first with wikipedia.ch and secondly
> wikinews.ch.
> Are someone interesstet to help?
>
> best regards
> Michael Rueetschli
> business data processing specialist
> Switzerland
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Magosányi Árpád

body:
A levelez?m azt hiszi, hogy Robert Scott Horning a k?vetkez?eket ?rta:
>
> Clay tablets could provide that sort of stability, especially if you
> make them ceramic instead, and don't suffer from being super valuable
> like gold for other things.  The #1 problem is that they are more prone
> to environmental damage and you can't put the detail in so finely as you
> could with gold (i.e. archiving large quantities of information are
> pretty much out).

I would think that technology of ceramics is advanced enough now that
enironmental damage is less concern than with gold.
I would also venture to say that creating such ceramics tables needs
much more physical world resources than creating wikipages.
However is seems possible that companies doing ceramics technology
would venture to offer some unnoticeable fraction of their production
resources for the wast marketing possibilities of being the one
to archive Wikipedia forever.

It would be useful to estimate the quantity of information needed
to make live easier after a catastrophy. If it is low enough (I guess
it is), we might consider to conserve this set as tables readily useable
for print. This way it could reach a much wider population than if
it would be written in microfilm size.

--
GNU GPL: csak tiszta forr?sb?l


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [Foundation-l] What is right place for googling notes?

body:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:01:44 +0000, Magos?nyi ?rp?d
<mag at bunuel.tii.matav.hu> wrote:
> Hi!
> *snip*
> Or should I just dump my findings into a suitable article and tag
> {{Attention}} or {{Cleanup}} ?

The links could go in the External links sections of relevant
articles. Anything you wrote yourself could go to Wikisource.

--Slowking Man


from_name: John Collison

body:
For howtos, wikibooks is a better place for them.

John Collison

On 30 Dec 2004, at 23:01, Magos?nyi ?rp?d wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Sometimes I used to google out things. I refer to hours and days long
> google sessions hunting for information buried deep and scattered
> throughout the net. The result of those sessions used to be
> some tens of more-or-less useful links, and some sentences about
> them. It is rather poor quality for an encyclopedia, yet
> contains valuable information.
>
> For example it took 2 days figuring out how to build a solar collector
> by hand. I have found lot of background material, some ten howtos, most
> of them was paying (i cannot afford to pay for them). There was three
> marginally useful free one, and only one and a half has described the
> type I was
> looking for. But it did not contain some valuable information I found
> elsewhere, and did contain a small problem impacting its efficiency.
>
> I would happily add a little extra effort (just a little, no wikifying)
> to share this kind of information. What is the proper place to put
> them,
> and how?
>
> Or should I just dump my findings into a suitable article and tag
> {{Attention}} or {{Cleanup}} ?
>
> --
> GNU GPL: csak tiszta forr?sb?l
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:52:48 +0100, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> On 31 Dec 2004, at 02:14, James R. Johnson wrote:
>
> > That's a good idea there...en.wikinews.uk or en.wikinews.usa sound
> > good.
>
> '''Oppose.'''
> Beware of balkanization.
> The above proposal would lead to a situation where people would not
> only just read about the so-called "locally relevant" issues that
> interest them, but it would probably very soon also lead to the
> respective wikis mostly containing the locally predominant POV

Please don't leap to conclusions.  If you read what I wrote (which is
what James was replying to), I *did not* suggest having wikinews sites
specific to a country *and* language.  Aside from the obvious POV
issues, this would be a complete waste of time simply because of
duplication of effort.

My suggestion was that, for example, en.wikinews.ca could redirect to
a particular page about Canadian news in the English wikinews site,
such as http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Canada.

These locale index pages would just be regular wikinews pages.   Their
purpose would be to serve as a collection of links to news stories
relevant to a particular country or locale.  The stories they linked
to would not themselves be tied to the locale in any way (and
therefore subject to locale-specific POV issues); they would just be
regular pages on en.wikinews.org.

I appreciate the need to avoid POV issues, but surely maintaining a
collection of links to stories relevant to a specific locale serves a
useful purpose.

regards,

Steve


body:
Hi!

Sometimes I used to google out things. I refer to hours and days long
google sessions hunting for information buried deep and scattered
throughout the net. The result of those sessions used to be
some tens of more-or-less useful links, and some sentences about
them. It is rather poor quality for an encyclopedia, yet
contains valuable information.

For example it took 2 days figuring out how to build a solar collector
by hand. I have found lot of background material, some ten howtos, most
of them was paying (i cannot afford to pay for them). There was three
marginally useful free one, and only one and a half has described the type I was
looking for. But it did not contain some valuable information I found
elsewhere, and did contain a small problem impacting its efficiency.

I would happily add a little extra effort (just a little, no wikifying)
to share this kind of information. What is the proper place to put them,
and how?

Or should I just dump my findings into a suitable article and tag
{{Attention}} or {{Cleanup}} ?

--
GNU GPL: csak tiszta forr?sb?l


body:
A levelez?m azt hiszi, hogy John Collison a k?vetkez?eket ?rta:
> For howtos, wikibooks is a better place for them.
>

Should I call a set of ten links and 5 sentences a book??

--
GNU GPL: csak tiszta forr?sb?l


body:
Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [041230 23:44]:

> My question is, do you think I should simply expand
> [Flag_of_New_Zealand] or should I create a new page dedicated to the
> changing of the New Zealand flag design, and if the later what do you
> think it should be called (is there any precedent for this type of
> article)?

Start as a section of the present article; split off and summarise in the
usual fashion when it gets too big. [[Flag of Australia]] still has the
flag debate in the main article, for example. See also the related
categories.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Image includsion polls

body:
Please vote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Graphic_and_potentially_disturbing_images
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_censorship

- d.


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Special characters

body:
Hello all,

            I?m trying to update the copyright warning on [[ang]] to include the ability to insert special characters, and using simply the letters inserts gibberish, and using the html code simply inserts the html code.  I?d like to use:

Sundort?cnu <http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters> : ? <javascript:insertTags('Á','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('á','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C7%BC','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C7%BD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('É','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%A9','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Í','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%AD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Ó','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%B3','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Ú','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BA','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%9D','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BD','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%90','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%B0','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%9E','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('Æ','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%A6','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C5%92','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C5%93','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B2','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B3','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%BD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%E2%80%A0','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('¢','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('–','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('—','','')>  ? [] <javascript:insertTags('%5b','%5d','')>  [[]] <javascript:insertTags('%5b%5b','%5d%5d','')>  {{}} <javascript:insertTags('%7b%7b','%7d%7d','')>  ? ~ <javascript:insertTags('~','','')>  | <javascript:insertTags('|','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B0','','')>

And

Sundort?cnu <http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters> : s? <javascript:insertTags('s%C3%A9','','')>  s?o <javascript:insertTags('s%C3%A9o','','')>  ??t <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A6t','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A6s','','')>  ??m <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDm','','')>  ??re <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDre','','')>  ?one <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEone','','')>  ?? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A1','','')>  ??ra <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDra','','')>  ?? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%BD','','')>  ?on <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEon','','')>  ? ?es <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEes','','')>  ??os <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A9os','','')>  ?is <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEis','','')>  ?isses <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisses','','')>  ?issum <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEissum','','')>  ?isne <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisne','','')>  ?isse <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisse','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A1s','','')>  ?issa <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEissa','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%BDs','','')>  ?

Can someone help me out?

Thanks,

James


body:
That's a good idea there...en.wikinews.uk or en.wikinews.usa sound good.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:39 PM
To: Andre Engels; wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] start a new Wikipedia / Wikinews

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:32:41 +0100, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>
wrote:
> In general Wikipedias are being divided by language, not by country.
> Sure, Swiss users will have different interests than German, French or
> Italian ones, but those are I think better served by adding Swiss
> content to the existing Wikipedias than by creating a new,
> multi-lingual Wikipedia.

I agree with this philosophy entirely as it applies to Wikipedia.
However, I think the poster may have a point about Wikinews.

Locale and nationality have more importance for news content than for
encyclopaedic content.  The sort of news relevant to a French speaker
in Quebec or in Cameroon may be entirely different from that relevant
to those in France.

I'm not suggesting separating wikinews sites by country or locale:
that's the wrong idea.  Mixing languages in one wikinews site is a bad
idea, and articles in the same language should be housed together, as
many can be re-used (such as those which concern international
events).

Here's a suggestion to resolve some of this: have a country or
locale-specific news index page on all wikinews sites, and make the
URL <languagecode>.wikinews.<countrycode> redirect to this page.  For
example, en.wikinews.ca would redirect to a page on en.wikinews.org
indexing English-language Canadian news, while fr.wikinews.ca would
redirect to a similar page for French-language Canadian news on
fr.wikinews.org.

regards,

Steve
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Jens Ropers

body:
On 31 Dec 2004, at 02:14, James R. Johnson wrote:

> That's a good idea there...en.wikinews.uk or en.wikinews.usa sound
> good.

'''Oppose.'''
Beware of balkanization.
The above proposal would lead to a situation where people would not
only just read about the so-called "locally relevant" issues that
interest them, but it would probably very soon also lead to the
respective wikis mostly containing the locally predominant POV -- which
may be sharply at odds with the rest of the world. There are enough
global media franchises whose "localized" products sell well enough due
to added local slant and preselection. Our mission, I dare to believe,
is to transcend these things and reach for higher goals.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Registration system and blocks

body:
Abe Sokolov wrote:
> Nevetheless, I am among the 100 most active users in this site's history;
> and although I am not a member of your cabal, I have just as much right to
> post something on this site giving you the perspective of the general
> editors as you people do. And if you don't like it, I'll just do it more
> frequently.

Good for you, and though you may not realize it, you're as much a part
of the cabal as those who have disagreed with you on this matter.  As
for me, I think that your core point is in danger of being overlooked
here.

My position is that your technical proposal is mistaken for the
reasons cited by others -- our real problems aren't so much from
driveby vandals who would be discouraged by a registration system, but
rather from dedicated trolls and POV pushers who we have not dealt
with as quickly and effectively as we should.

In this, I think you and I would agree.

--Jimbo


body:
Abe Sokolov wrote:
> Thank you for the explanation. My field's history, definitely not
> computers. I've only been using the internet for a few years. Writing
> scripts is way above my pay grade. So I'll take your word for it; but I
> wonder if the typical trouble-maker we encounter is sophisticated enough to
> realize what you are bringing up above.

I think we are making progress here.  If we grant that a registration
system isn't the *right* measure to deal with the typical
trouble-maker, we can instead focus on what *is* the right measure?

Again, let me say that I'm fully with you on the core issue, even
though I have not been a fan of your technical proposal.

--Jimbo


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Setting up a Wikipedia in _______ (what ever
	language)

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:
> The problem is political. One China, One language, One Wikipedia, and so on.

I don't think this has anything to do with it, actually.

--Jimbo


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Robert Scott Horning (robert_horning at netzero.net) [041231 03:00]:

> In terms of something realistic that Wikipedians could do and contribute
> toward such a project, it would be nice to gather information on how to
> recreate basic industries.  This would include things like how to make
> steel from nothing but raw iron ore and a few buckets of coal, building
> an internal combustion engine, basic dam construction, running a
> water-powered mill (sawmill or grain), or how to harness a horse
> effectively.  Books covering these subjects have been written, but they
> havn't been updated for a number of years, and assume a technological
> infrastruction that in many cases doesn't even exist now except in some
> emerging nations.  Besides the doom and gloom scenerios, it could also
> be a valuable aid  for some of these developing nations on how to make
> stuff and build industries on a comparatively small-scale (a few dozen
> workers).  Once information like this is gathered, finding preservation
> methods for the information would be much easier to achieve.

Now, *that* sounds like a project for Wikibooks!

- d.


body:
> My suggestion was that, for example, en.wikinews.ca could redirect to
> a particular page about Canadian news in the English wikinews site,
> such as http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Canada.

Yes! I think this is the right way.


from_name: Sj

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

body:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:13:56 -0800, Michael Snow
<wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
> In this article (
> http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1374741,00.html )
> Collins compares its new Living Dictionary - which takes submissions
> from users - to Wikipedia.
>
> Maybe this would be a good place to direct the authors of attempted
> neologisms that end up getting deleted?

That's a neat article.  And a good idea for neologisms... we will need
a good slang dictionary to refer to in ten years once time has
filtered out those that have no permanence.

--
+sj+
 _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] [In the Press] WP seaquake coverage praised;
	snippets of New Year's joy

body:
Wikipedia is singled out for praise for its super-timely coverage of
the Indian Ocean quake, leaving Wikinews eating dust and "dramatic"
headlines.   Will there be a journalist-encyclopedist showdown?  Will
Wikiaddicts start cancelling other appointments when they learn of
crucial updates to important articles?  (Do they already?)

Meanwhile 'wiki' continues to infect mainstream vocabulary, in
preparation for the upcoming Year of the Wiki.  And better editing
tools are coming out every week, thanks to both MediaWiki updates (did
you know that 'what links here' now works for categories?) and
third-party plugins.

Happy new year!
  +sj+

==Wikipedia, Disasters and Wikinews==

eSchool News, ed-tech Insider Will Richardson, 12-28.
'The Future of News Right Now'

 Of all the ways that the Read/Write Web is changing our lives,
 one of the most profound is in the ways we access and consume
 the news... when I [want] a more complete picture of the story,
 I still don't go to the Times. Instead, I go to Wikipedia... I
 know there is some debate about the veracity of the information
 there. But take a minute to check out the Wikipedia entry on
 the tsunami event and tell me you aren't amazed.  [It's
 getting] 75 edits an hour. In fact I found out there that the
 toll had reached some 55,000 before it even came through my
 [news] aggregator.
   http://www.eschoolnews.com/eti/2004/12/000426.php

Guardian Unlimited, Neil McIntosh, 12-30.
'Wikipedia on the Indian Ocean earthquake'

 [T]he ever-impressive Wikipedia is compiling a mammoth entry
 on the unfolding disaster. He points out the first draft was
 written within 24 hours of the waves hitting shore; it's
 certainly an impressive effort.

 Meanwhile, Wikinews - the recently-launched sister site to
 Wikipedia - is running the dramatic headline "New tsunamis to
 hit India today...'
    http://tinyurl.com/4jz26

== Other tidbits about wikis and wikipedia ==

The NYT listed 'wiki' among 14 "would-be words that rose to
prominence" this year, along with 'spim', 'bangalored', and
'podcasting'.  That's ridonkulous.  But then none could accuse
compiler Grant Barrett of knowing where his towel is.
  http://tinyurl.com/68ngs

And Val Souza continues to promote wikis in his column in India's
Express Computer 'zine.  He throws in a good word for Wikipedia but
leaves MediaWiki out of his list of wikis to install at home.

 Wikipedia has detractors too, as I discovered when I
 received anonymous mail condemning me for "pushing"
 Wikipedia in my previous column...
   http://www.expresscomputeronline.com/20041227/edit02.shtml

Finally, Daily Yomiuri online says WP offers "nothing less than a
glimpse into a potential future model of publishing."
  http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20041228wo61.htm

== New Tools ==

(as seen on wikitech-l !) Axel Kramer released a beta of the Eclipse
Wikipedia Editor Plugin in time for Christmas.
  http://tinyurl.com/5qaog

General tools information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tools

--


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Special characters

body:
In 1.4 this text has been changed from HTML-text to Wiki-text for
security reasons, which means that you cannot use JavaScript any more.
Instead, you should now use <charinsert> </charinsert> -pseudo-tags.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning&action=edit
for an example.

Andre Engels

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:41:50 +0100, James R. Johnson
<modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
>             I'm trying to update the copyright warning on [[ang]] to include the ability to insert special characters, and using simply the letters inserts gibberish, and using the html code simply inserts the html code.  I'd like to use:
>
> Sundort?cnu <http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters> : ? <javascript:insertTags('Á','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('á','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C7%BC','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C7%BD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('É','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%A9','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Í','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%AD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Ó','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%B3','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Ú','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BA','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%9D','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BD','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%90','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%B0','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%9E','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('Æ','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%A6','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C5%92','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C5%93','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B2','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B3','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%BD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%E2%80%A0','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('¢','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('–','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('—','','')>  ? [] <javascript:insertTags('%5b','%5d','')>  [[]] <javascript:insertTags('%5b%5b','%5d%5d','')>  {{}} <javascript:insertTags('%7b%7b','%7d%7d','')>  ? ~ <javascript:insertTags('~','','')>  | <javascript:insertTags('|','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B0','','')>
>
> And
>
> Sundort?cnu <http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters> : s? <javascript:insertTags('s%C3%A9','','')>  s?o <javascript:insertTags('s%C3%A9o','','')>  ??t <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A6t','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A6s','','')>  ??m <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDm','','')>  ??re <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDre','','')>  ?one <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEone','','')>  ?? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A1','','')>  ??ra <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDra','','')>  ?? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%BD','','')>  ?on <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEon','','')>  ? ?es <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEes','','')>  ??os <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A9os','','')>  ?is <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEis','','')>  ?isses <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisses','','')>  ?issum <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEissum','','')>  ?isne <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisne','','')>  ?isse <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisse','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A1s','','')>  ?issa <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEissa','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%BDs','','')>  ?
>
> Can someone help me out?
>
> Thanks,
>
> James
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Special characters

body:
I tried that, pasted it over, and I'm getting the gibberish characters.  I'd also like to put a few frequently used words on the template.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andre Engels
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 11:46 AM
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Special characters

In 1.4 this text has been changed from HTML-text to Wiki-text for
security reasons, which means that you cannot use JavaScript any more.
Instead, you should now use <charinsert> </charinsert> -pseudo-tags.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning&action=edit
for an example.

Andre Engels

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:41:50 +0100, James R. Johnson
<modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
>             I'm trying to update the copyright warning on [[ang]] to include the ability to insert special characters, and using simply the letters inserts gibberish, and using the html code simply inserts the html code.  I'd like to use:
>
> Sundort?cnu <http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters> : ? <javascript:insertTags('Á','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('á','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C7%BC','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C7%BD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('É','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%A9','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Í','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%AD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Ó','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%B3','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('Ú','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BA','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%9D','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BD','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%90','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%B0','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%9E','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('Æ','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%A6','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C5%92','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C5%93','','')>  ? ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B2','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B3','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%BD','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%E2%80%A0','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('¢','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('–','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('—','','')>  ? [] <javascript:insertTags('%5b','%5d','')>  [[]] <javascript:insertTags('%5b%5b','%5d%5d','')>  {{}} <javascript:insertTags('%7b%7b','%7d%7d','')>  ? ~ <javascript:insertTags('~','','')>  | <javascript:insertTags('|','','')>  ? <javascript:insertTags('%C2%B0','','')>
>
> And
>
> Sundort?cnu <http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters> : s? <javascript:insertTags('s%C3%A9','','')>  s?o <javascript:insertTags('s%C3%A9o','','')>  ??t <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A6t','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A6s','','')>  ??m <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDm','','')>  ??re <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDre','','')>  ?one <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEone','','')>  ?? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A1','','')>  ??ra <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C7%BDra','','')>  ?? <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%BD','','')>  ?on <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEon','','')>  ? ?es <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEes','','')>  ??os <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A9os','','')>  ?is <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEis','','')>  ?isses <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisses','','')>  ?issum <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEissum','','')>  ?isne <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisne','','')>  ?isse <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEisse','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%A1s','','')>  ?issa <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BEissa','','')>  ??s <javascript:insertTags('%C3%BE%C3%BDs','','')>  ?
>
> Can someone help me out?
>
> Thanks,
>
> James
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: JAY JG

body:
>Abe Sokolov wrote:
> > Nevetheless, I am among the 100 most active users in this site's
>history;
> > and although I am not a member of your cabal, I have just as much right
>to
> > post something on this site giving you the perspective of the general
> > editors as you people do. And if you don't like it, I'll just do it more
> > frequently.
>
>Good for you, and though you may not realize it, you're as much a part
>of the cabal as those who have disagreed with you on this matter.

Is there any way I can become a part of the cabal?  Is there a sign-up form
or something? Apparently I'm already part of a worldwide domination
conspiracy/cabal, but it doesn't feel like enough.

>As
>for me, I think that your core point is in danger of being overlooked
>here.
>
>My position is that your technical proposal is mistaken for the
>reasons cited by others -- our real problems aren't so much from
>driveby vandals who would be discouraged by a registration system, but
>rather from dedicated trolls and POV pushers who we have not dealt
>with as quickly and effectively as we should.

I'm still disturbed with the recent case of a dedicated and extremely
abusive troll/POV pusher who created a dozen sockpuppets and edited using
them with near impunity on Wikipedia for months.  His ArbCom case is still
slowly dragging its way through the process, not even a temporary injunction
yet.

Jay.


body:
On 31 Dec 2004, at 04:14, Stephen Forrest wrote:

> On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:52:48 +0100, Jens Ropers
> <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
>>
>> '''Oppose.'''
>> Beware of balkanization.
>> The above proposal would lead to a situation where people would not
>> only just read about the so-called "locally relevant" issues that
>> interest them, but it would probably very soon also lead to the
>> respective wikis mostly containing the locally predominant POV
>
> Please don't leap to conclusions.  If you read what I wrote (which is
> what James was replying to), I *did not* suggest having wikinews sites
> specific to a country *and* language.  Aside from the obvious POV
> issues, this would be a complete waste of time simply because of
> duplication of effort.
>
> My suggestion was that, for example, en.wikinews.ca could redirect to
> a particular page about Canadian news in the English wikinews site,
> such as http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Canada.
>
> These locale index pages would just be regular wikinews pages.   Their
> purpose would be to serve as a collection of links to news stories
> relevant to a particular country or locale.  The stories they linked
> to would not themselves be tied to the locale in any way (and
> therefore subject to locale-specific POV issues); they would just be
> regular pages on en.wikinews.org.
>
> I appreciate the need to avoid POV issues, but surely maintaining a
> collection of links to stories relevant to a specific locale serves a
> useful purpose.

Sorry, I think my hasty skim-reading of the thread caught me there. I
did indeed mistakenly believe that there was a proposal in the works to
divide stuff into country-specific wikis.

However:
I am still not too hot on the idea of "localized news renditions", even
if achieved purely through portal pages which link to articles in one
or more language-based wikis. It's always annoyed me beyond measure
that a copy of TIME magazine, NEWSWEEK (and even, I hear, THE
ECONOMIST) purchased in, say, the US is not identical to one available
in Europe. IMHO this is a Very Bad Thing because Globalization Is Good
For You and nobody buys TIME magazine with the expectation of reading a
European magazine anyway, so half-hearted efforts towards "filtering"
offerings so they're more palatable/attractive/"relevant" to the local
populace are pretty pointless and damaging.
How does this apply to us?
Well, the Internet is global and it equally annoys me if entities come
up with different offerings for different physical places.
That said, you're of course free to create any individual article you
wish (including portal articles) and if enough people support the idea,
they will stay and grow. But count me out.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Word Cabal

body:
Maybe I'm just more cynical & sardonic than I am can truly discern,
but having been recently involved in a dispute where the word "cabal"
was thrown around rather freely, I feel the need to ask: is there
really any difference between "cabal" & "a group of people who all
concur in a consensus"?

Or is this one of those cases similar to the POV pair terrorist/freedom
fighter? By which, I mean something like the following: if I hold the
same opinion as a number of other people, then it is a consensus; if I
disagree with the shared opinion of a group of people, then they are a cabal.

Or is this use of "cabal" another example of certain words being misused
to enflame emotions until they have lost their precise meanings, much as
I've seen the words "war criminal" & "genocide" misused.

Geoff


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Sj wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:13:56 -0800, Michael Snow
><wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>In this article (
>>http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1374741,00.html )
>>Collins compares its new Living Dictionary - which takes submissions
>>from users - to Wikipedia.
>>
>>Maybe this would be a good place to direct the authors of attempted
>>neologisms that end up getting deleted?
>>
>>
>That's a neat article.  And a good idea for neologisms... we will need
>a good slang dictionary to refer to in ten years once time has
>filtered out those that have no permanence.
>
It seems that Collins' effort is to be snickeringly welcomed.  Our
experience with protologisms at Wiktionary has been somewhat Rocky.  New
words are being invented with great regularity, but it's no easy task to
distinguish between something that expresses a need and someone's flight
of fancy that is firmly grounded in his illiteracy.  The thought of an
established institution having to cope with our friendly POV warriors
brings a smile to my face.

In Wiktionary I seem to have taken on the role of the arch-conservative
by promoting the concept of verifiability.  This is every bit as
important as it is in Wikipedia.  Collins works from the anchor of an
established dictionary; this makes them better equipped to deal with
some often eccentric neologisms.  Our Scylla and Charybdis requires
navigating between potential copyright violations on one side and newly
minted inaccracies on the other.

Ec


from_name: slimvirgin at gmail.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Word Cabal

body:
And a happy New Year to you too, Geoff.  :-)

Slim

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:32:43 -0800 (PST), Geoff Burling
<llywrch at agora.rdrop.com> wrote:
> Or is this one of those cases similar to the POV pair terrorist/freedom
> fighter? By which, I mean something like the following: if I hold the
> same opinion as a number of other people, then it is a consensus; if I  disagree with the shared opinion of a group of people, then they are a cabal. Or is this use of "cabal" another example of certain words being misused to enflame emotions until they have lost their precise meanings, much as I've seen the words "war criminal" & "genocide" misused.


from_name: andrea loquenzi

subject: [WikiEN-l] inquiry from an Italian journalist

body:
I am a young journalist/historian from Rome and I am in the process of
applying for my journalists' lisence here in Italy.  This requires me to
have published a certain number of articles in accredited media outlets in
order to earn my lisence.  Can a contribution to either Wikipedia or Wkinews
count as such?  If so, this outlet would be very useful for me as I develop
as a journalist.  I have much to contribute on the subject of The Middle
East and other historical discourse.  I can also translate texts from
Italian to English and vice-versa.

Thank you for your response-- any information you can provide regarding my
inquiry would be greatly appreciated!

Andrea Loquenzi

_________________________________________________________________
Personalizza MSN Messenger con sfondi e fotografie!
http://www.ilovemessenger.msn.it/


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
I played around a little bit there today. "Wiki" was considered a new word.
"Wikipedia" and "Wikipedian" are being considered, but the definitions are
lifted from the first paragraph of the Wikipedia articles without credit.

Fred

> From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:47:23 -0800
> To: Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
>
> Sj wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:13:56 -0800, Michael Snow
>> <wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In this article (
>>> http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1374741,00.html )
>>> Collins compares its new Living Dictionary - which takes submissions
>>> from users - to Wikipedia.
>>>
>>> Maybe this would be a good place to direct the authors of attempted
>>> neologisms that end up getting deleted?
>>>
>>>
>> That's a neat article.  And a good idea for neologisms... we will need
>> a good slang dictionary to refer to in ten years once time has
>> filtered out those that have no permanence.
>>
> It seems that Collins' effort is to be snickeringly welcomed.  Our
> experience with protologisms at Wiktionary has been somewhat Rocky.  New
> words are being invented with great regularity, but it's no easy task to
> distinguish between something that expresses a need and someone's flight
> of fancy that is firmly grounded in his illiteracy.  The thought of an
> established institution having to cope with our friendly POV warriors
> brings a smile to my face.
>
> In Wiktionary I seem to have taken on the role of the arch-conservative
> by promoting the concept of verifiability.  This is every bit as
> important as it is in Wikipedia.  Collins works from the anchor of an
> established dictionary; this makes them better equipped to deal with
> some often eccentric neologisms.  Our Scylla and Charybdis requires
> navigating between potential copyright violations on one side and newly
> minted inaccracies on the other.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
--- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Meanwhile 'wiki' continues to infect mainstream vocabulary, in
> preparation for the upcoming Year of the Wiki.  And better editing
> tools are coming out every week, thanks to both MediaWiki updates (did
> you know that 'what links here' now works for categories?) and
> third-party plugins.

Sweet - it also looks like related changes now works from cats
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Recentchangeslinked&target=Category%3AEducation

Being able to get such a related changes with subcats included at the same
time, would be the next logical step.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com


from_name: Rich Holton

body:
--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> I played around a little bit there today. "Wiki" was considered a new
> word.
> "Wikipedia" and "Wikipedian" are being considered, but the
> definitions are
> lifted from the first paragraph of the Wikipedia articles without
> credit.
>
This concerns me. Anyone else? Not the lack of credit per se, but the
idea that these "words" are being considered as neologisms. Wikipedia
is our trade mark, and perhaps we should also claim "Wikipedian". We
don't want these to fall into general use.

-Rich Holton (en.wikipedia:user:Rholton)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Stacey Greenstein

body:
Hee! Ok. You're in!

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:53:26 +1100, Robin Shannon
<robin.shannon at gmail.com> wrote:
> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:20:12 -0500, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there any way I can become a part of the cabal?  Is there a sign-up form
> > or something? Apparently I'm already part of a worldwide domination
> > conspiracy/cabal, but it doesn't feel like enough.
>
> ==Cabal application form==
>
> Username: [[User:The bellman]]
>
> Real name: Robin Shannon
>
> Previous experience in world domination: Grand Poohbah of the
> freemasons (1999-2001),
> Supreme leader of the scientoligists (2000-2003), the REAL pope (2004- ).
>
> Reason you want to dominate the world: current world rulers are either
> too geeky (bill gates) too stupid (GWB) or too victorian (QEII). I
> think i would be a more rounded sort of person, thus more sutible for
> the job.
>
> I the undersigned do solemly swear to follow the 8 rules of the wikimedia cabal.
>
> # You do not talk about THE CABAL.
>
> # You DO NOT talk about THE CABAL.
>
> # If someone says "stop" or goes limp, taps out the edit war is over.
>
> # Only two guys to an eidt war.
>
> # One edit war at a time.
>
> # No shirts, no shoes.
>
> # Arbitration will go on as long as it has to.
>
> # If this is your first night in THE CABAL, you HAVE to edit
>
> ~~~~.
>
> --
> hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
> jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au
>
> This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
> Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales (jwales at wikia.com) [050101 00:35]:

> My position is that your technical proposal is mistaken for the
> reasons cited by others -- our real problems aren't so much from
> driveby vandals who would be discouraged by a registration system, but
> rather from dedicated trolls and POV pushers who we have not dealt
> with as quickly and effectively as we should.
> In this, I think you and I would agree.

In one recent example, a user who was brought to arbitration and promptly
created twelve sockpuppets. He put quite a bit of effort into them, too.
And they were obnoxious as hell. After I blocked the socks, I got several
emails from users thanking me and saying he'd nearly driven them off
Wikipedia.

(I must note that I only acted in this case after firm technical proof of
abuse of sockpuppets to get around 3RR and personal abuse rules. Because I
may have to help arbitrate on this case after Jan 1 ... arbitrators can do
less, not more.)

But the problem is, I couldn't really have done anything without the solid
technical proof (courtesy Jamesday) that they were all the same user.
Because blocking "obvious sock puppets" without technical proof is not
generally accepted amongst the admins, and it would have been unblocked
promptly.

Compared to this sort of behaviour, hit-and-run vandals or sandboxers are
nothing. Even trolls (even the GNAA) are nothing. I find it hard to think
what the GNAA could do to Wikipedia that it diesn't do to itself.

I am very annoyed the vote for 24-hour blocks for personal abuse didn't
reach consensus. It would help a *lot* IMO. Pity it's a bit subjective.
Unfortunately, Wikipedia is too big to block on "you're being a dickhead,
stop it" any more.

- d.


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales (jwales at wikia.com) [050101 00:39]:
> Fred Bauder wrote:

> > The problem is political. One China, One language, One Wikipedia, and so on.

> I don't think this has anything to do with it, actually.

It's got speakers, it's got an orthography, it's a different language with
a code, it's got active newspapers and book publishing in that orthography,
and it's got someone requesting it so they can start work on it. What else
does it need to go forward?

- d.


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Perhaps there needs to be a separate intlwiki-l
	again?

body:
Mark Williamson schreef in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.misc:
[cut]
> that frankly there are some people here who don't want to get those
> discussions in their inbox.
[cut]

To all; do not forget you can read the lists and post to it like it
where a newsgroup. There is no need to recieve emails from this list.

--
[[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]]


body:
I'm not suggesting that we balkanize or limit to only locally relevant
news...I'm just fine with the idea of en.wikinews.uk being a redirect to the
English wikinews site, though that'd be a bit redundant.  That's the good
thing about wiki as a whole is that it gets over the local bias (the
European bias, American bias, etc.) with so many contributors.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jens Ropers
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 3:53 AM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] start a new Wikipedia / Wikinews

On 31 Dec 2004, at 02:14, James R. Johnson wrote:

> That's a good idea there...en.wikinews.uk or en.wikinews.usa sound
> good.

'''Oppose.'''
Beware of balkanization.
The above proposal would lead to a situation where people would not
only just read about the so-called "locally relevant" issues that
interest them, but it would probably very soon also lead to the
respective wikis mostly containing the locally predominant POV -- which
may be sharply at odds with the rest of the world. There are enough
global media franchises whose "localized" products sell well enough due
to added local slant and preselection. Our mission, I dare to believe,
is to transcend these things and reach for higher goals.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


body:
That would not depend on us but on whoever in Italy is counting these up. I
suggest you, with your position in Italy (where most US newspapers have
minimal reporters on scene) contact major US papers regarding requirements
and submit freelance articles to them.

However, we welcome your contributions and if contributing helps you in this
way, great.

Fred

> From: "andrea loquenzi" <andrealoquenzi at hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:20:24 +0000
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] inquiry from an Italian journalist
>
> I am a young journalist/historian from Rome and I am in the process of
> applying for my journalists' lisence here in Italy.  This requires me to
> have published a certain number of articles in accredited media outlets in
> order to earn my lisence.  Can a contribution to either Wikipedia or Wkinews
> count as such?  If so, this outlet would be very useful for me as I develop
> as a journalist.  I have much to contribute on the subject of The Middle
> East and other historical discourse.  I can also translate texts from
> Italian to English and vice-versa.
>
> Thank you for your response-- any information you can provide regarding my
> inquiry would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Andrea Loquenzi
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Personalizza MSN Messenger con sfondi e fotografie!
> http://www.ilovemessenger.msn.it/
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l