from_name: Theresa Knott

body:
On 6/15/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is SlimVirgin's block of me from yesterday:
>
> >23:45, 13 Jun 2005, SlimVirgin blocked Eyeon (expires 23:45, 14 Jun 2005)
> >(contribs) (3RR violation at Feces using sockpuppets)
>
> Now today, 96 minutes before the block is to expire, she has blocked my IP
> address:
>
> >22:09, 14 Jun 2005, SlimVirgin blocked #24943 (expires 22:09, 15 Jun 2005)
> >(Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Eyeon". The
> >reason given for Eyeon's block is: "'''3RR violation at Feces using
> >sockpuppets'''".)

This is the autoblock. When someone who is blocked tries to log in,
the block8ing software automatically blocks thier IP address for 24
hours. This is to encorage people to actually just go away for 24
hours, calm down and think on why revert warring is bad!

>
> The timing is unmistakeable. She actually made a special effort to get
> online shortly before my suspension would be lifted - for the sole purpose
> of extending my suspension.

No she never.

>
> She knew yesterday that #24943 was me, having suspended me (in error) in the
> past. (#24943 is not a sock puppet; it is my IP address, which I edited
> under before I got an account, and I still use occasionally when I just
> forget to log in.)

No it's not #24943 is a number assigned to you  by the wikisoftware to
hide your IP adress from people viewing the blocklog. Admins are not
able to view logged in users IPs.

I'm going to go and unblock you manually now.

Theresa


list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: sannse

subject: [Foundation-l] Wanted - help desk helpers

body:
Now that the info-en email address is on the "contact us" pages, the
amount of mail is increasing, and we need more help.

We are looking for a long-standing contributor with a good knowledge of
the English Wikipedia and its policies and procedures.  You should also
have a working knowledge of other projects.  You need to have infinite
patience to reply to the same newbie questions time after time, and a
friendly and helpful style of writing.  Most important is the ability
not to laugh at people who write to tell us we have a massive security
hole - an edit link on each page!!!11!.

Being active on IRC is an advantage - it makes a real difference to be
able to talk over the tricky ones sometimes.

Pay is at the usual Wikipedia rate of lots of good feeling and all the
cookies you can eat.

Hopefully there will be a big rush of applicants for this wonderful job,
and I will ask those volunteering to answer a few mails to see if you
have the style we are looking for.  Jimbo will have the final say though.

Please mail me directly rather than replying to the list if you are
interested.

Thanks,

sannse

p.s. I lied about the cookies


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wanted - help desk helpers


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wanted - help desk helpers


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] I'm unblocked, but SlimVirgin STILL WON'T LET ME EDIT!

body:
/Please, save us the trouble. Let us deal with more worthy cases -
people who are actually editing in good faith. Some people are just
asking to be banned - sending these people to the arbitration
committee just wastes our time, their time, and the time of those that
have to provide evidence. -- ambi/

Hallelujah and Amen.
--Mark


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikimedia (was Re: bugzilla votes)

references:
<42AAAFC0.4010601@yahoo.com>	<51dd1af8050611071232cc5374@mail.gmail.com>	<d8esel$psb$1@sea.gmane.org>	<d2f92e8b05061108006b0fecd6@mail.gmail.com>	<42AB0320.6040909@gmail.com>	<d8f4lt$de3$1@sea.gmane.org>	<42AD436D.5080508@wildgooses.com>	<d8kdht$lcp$1@sea.gmane.org>	<42ADC8FC.4040808@gmail.com>
	<d8kqvr$24m$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Tim Starling wrote:

>This comes from a thread on wikitech-l, I'm cross-posting it to
>wikipedia-l. Please reply on one list only.
>
>Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>
>>Hoi,
>>When developers aren't interested in working on functionality for the
>>various projects of the foundation, we should find developers that are.
>>
>>
>Who is "we"? I joined Wikipedia well before the Foundation was formed,
>I've watched it develop. I can't help but feel that myself and those who
>share my views are underrepresented. I've argued for focus but I've been
>ignored. Wikipedia has grown but has barely matured, the date for
>"Wikipedia 1.0" keeps being pushed back with virtually no progress made.
>Instead, any enthusiastic newcomer with an idea for a word we can
>prepend "wiki" to is greeted with open arms, especially if they come
>bearing money.
>
I can't comment on the money aspect, but apart from that there is much
to what you say.  I find Gerard's comment somewhat increditible, and
totally failing to understand people.  Imagine firing all the developers
who do not jump to bring out someone's pet project! :-D   I wonder what
his next trick would be.  I don't have the zeal for a lot of gadgety
features, I very much prefer a solid system that works with a high
degree of predictability.  I see Gerard trumpeting his Ultimate
Wiktionary, yet he disclaims ability to programme this project.  I agree
with you about the 1.0 but I see the problems there as being more social
than technical. ... and that just brings us back to the question of
leadership.

>It would be all very well if Wikipedia could manage itself, but I don't
>think it can, I think it lacks strong leadership. I don't think it's any
>surprise that the German Wikipedia, with enthusiastic leadership largely
>independent of the Foundation, has had more success with distribution
>and quality control than the English Wikipedia.
>
The projects long ago passed the point where one person could maintain
leadership over everything.  Some of the democracy that I've seen around
has only served to strengthen my faith in dictatorship.  Sometimes
leadership a question of decisiveness when the need to take action
becomes stronger than being right or wrong.  We are attractive to those
who on a mass scale would recreate their ersatz world of diletantes and
poetasters with a historical perspective as deep as the latest video
game.  Policy discussions go around in circles with no-one knowing how,
or having the courage to escape from the circle.

Ec


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Squid failures

body:
A bunch of our squid proxies are currently offline with some sort of
problem we haven't totally diagnosed yet, after fixing what looked like
a straightforward configuration syntax error.

Hopefully we'll have them all back online soon. Site may be intermittent
until then.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wanted - help desk helpers

body:
I would be willing to help out with the emails.  I have been a
en.wikipedia contributor for a couple of years, am an administrator,
and spend most of my life in front of a computer ;)  Love the chance
to help out a bit more.

-Matt (User:Morven)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Wanted - help desk helpers


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Rwanda newshut

body:
Besides Wikinews radio, there's another exciting development on the
English Wikinews: the Rwanda newshut.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Rwanda_newshut

Every week, Wikinews chooses a new country to focus on (an idea by
User:CGorman). Rwanda was picked because we have a volunteer reporter
over there, Clare White. She has just submitted her first original
reporting:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/UN_reports_Rwandan_refugees_repatriated_by_force

See also her Rwanda conference project at:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:Cmwhite

More on this in my next State of the Wiki report.

On a related note, we've also recently had some OR from Iran, via
Instant Messenger:
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/More_political%2C_soccer-related_unrest_in_Iran_follows_Bahrain_victory

Best,

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Rwanda newshut


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
I think that we should have pre-composed responses to the most common questions.

It may seem less personal, but it would certainly be easier and take less work.

Rather than writing to Jim Doe "Thank you for pointing that out.
Actually, Wikipedia is a.... and that's the whole point", and then to
Jane Smith "Jane, we really appreciate your concern. However," and
then to Joe Johnson "Joe, thanks for letting us know. Actually...", we
can write consistently "Dear Name, Thanks for really appreciate
letting us point concern that know. Actually, Wikipedia is a however."

Mark

On 14/06/05, sannse <sannse at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Now that the info-en email address is on the "contact us" pages, the
> amount of mail is increasing, and we need more help.
>
> We are looking for a long-standing contributor with a good knowledge of
> the English Wikipedia and its policies and procedures.  You should also
> have a working knowledge of other projects.  You need to have infinite
> patience to reply to the same newbie questions time after time, and a
> friendly and helpful style of writing.  Most important is the ability
> not to laugh at people who write to tell us we have a massive security
> hole - an edit link on each page!!!11!.
>
> Being active on IRC is an advantage - it makes a real difference to be
> able to talk over the tricky ones sometimes.
>
> Pay is at the usual Wikipedia rate of lots of good feeling and all the
> cookies you can eat.
>
> Hopefully there will be a big rush of applicants for this wonderful job,
> and I will ask those volunteering to answer a few mails to see if you
> have the style we are looking for.  Jimbo will have the final say though.
>
> Please mail me directly rather than replying to the list if you are
> interested.
>
> Thanks,
>
> sannse
>
> p.s. I lied about the cookies
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Jane Halliwell

subject: [WikiEN-l] On agreeing to disagree

body:
No IP check is being performed. SlimVirgin doesn't care about evidence. She
has said she will ignore the results of an IP check, and she said she will
continue to ban me from editing this article for 'being disruptive'.

I am being denied due process. Should I just 'agree' to stay banned?

Meanwhile, public support for my edit has swelled to 18 to 10 to 2 to 1 on
the talk:feces page (four categories of votes.)

It is not 'disruptive' to revert a minority's censorship three times a day.
It is not 'sockpuppetry' when others also take a stand.

>Can't you two just agree to disagree? SlimVirgin, don't call Eyeon a troll
>or someone with sockpuppets until
>you get some evidence from a developer and Eyeon, don't immediately
>assume SlimVirgin is editing in bad faith. After all, SlimVirgin does
>have a point about the deleted article and similar editing styles.
>
>--Mgm

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee?
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


from_name: David Iberri

subject:
[Wikitech-l] What HTML tags and their attributes are acceptable
	within the syntax by MediaWiki

body:
On 6/15/05, Shlomi Fish <shlomif at iglu.org.il> wrote:
> I'd like to ask what HTML tags and which of their attributes are acceptable
> within the MediaWiki syntax? I've looked at Parser.php but it's confusing.

The tag and attribute whitelists are in Sanitizer.php [1] -- at least
that's what I used for HTML::WikiConverter.

> I need it because I and some other guy are writing a parser and HTML converter
> for MediaWiki syntax in Perl.

It's about time. Text::WikiFormat is maddening :-)

Best,
David

[1] http://tinyurl.com/ab276


from_name: Philipp

subject: [Wikitech-l] Edit conflict

body:
Hello,

in the past few days the following problem occurred in a local mediawiki
installation: When opening an article for edit, everything seems in order.
Showing the preview also works and the change applied to the article is shown.
But when trying to submit, one gets the other-user-edits-conflict-warning and
in the preview field there is the old unchanged version. This happens with
every article (as far as tested) independently whether that respective article
being edited by someone else or not.

Writing a new article works, trying to edit it just afterwards leads to the
described problem.

Already did a rebuildall which took all night (2500 articles), but the problem
remains the same. Is that something known and what am I missing here?

Greetings
Philipp


from_name: MHart

subject: [Wikitech-l] Alpha lists

body:
That hack is compatible with levels the same as regular lists. @ is a great
choice, thanks!

- MHart

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dori" <slowpoke at gmail.com>
To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Alpha lists

On 6/14/05, MHart <wiki at matthart.com> wrote:
> Small hack I did today is very useful when converting help text to wiki
> format - I added ~ to the list elements. Is ~ used elsewhere.. looks like
> maybe a timezone thing so that ~~~ would fail? Is there another char that
> would work better?

Maybe '@', what happens with deeper levels?
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


body:
Check out http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:HTML_in_wikitext

- MHart

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shlomi Fish" <shlomif at iglu.org.il>
To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] What HTML tags and their attributes are
acceptablewithin the syntax by MediaWiki

> Hi!
>
> I'd like to ask what HTML tags and which of their attributes are
> acceptable
> within the MediaWiki syntax? I've looked at Parser.php but it's confusing.
>
> I need it because I and some other guy are writing a parser and HTML
> converter
> for MediaWiki syntax in Perl.
>
> Regards,
>
> Shlomi Fish
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
> Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/
>
> Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures
> is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of
> paragraphs.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: My views on policies and debates over content

body:
"Andrew Venier" <avenier at venier.net> wrote in
message news:42AF8877.4070305 at venier.net...
> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>> Andrew Venier wrote:
>>> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>>> Jack Lynch wrote:
>>>>> Additionally, I, and assumably many others, read encyclopedias, and
>>>>> esp. the wikipedia, as a source of extremely obscure and bizarre info
>>>>> not to be found elsewhere.
>>>> Absolutely!  And I hope we can add much more.  If it's verified as
>>>> having been proposed by somebody (which does not mean verifying that
>>>> the guy's theories make any sense),  and properly sourced what more can
>>>> we ask for.
>>> What ever happened to
>>> [[WP:WIN#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information]]?
>>> I thought that was official policy.
>> I said nothing about being indiscriminate with the various available
>> nutcases.
> "If it's verified as having been proposed by somebody... and properly
> sourced" is a standard that many, many nutjobs can meet.  Worthiness to be
> included in an encyclopedia is "what more we can ask for."

If it's the kind of nut-job-ness that the average person is likely to be
taken in by, then we have a responsibility to at least mention it, together
with (presumably ample) evidence that the guy **is** a nut-job and why
people should **not** be taken in.
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wanted - help desk helpers

body:
I would be willing to take on a few questions every once in a while.
If you need some examples of my style. You can check the help desk
questions I've answered so far.

-Mgm

On 6/15/05, sannse <sannse at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Now that the info-en email address is on the "contact us" pages, the
> amount of mail is increasing, and we need more help.
>
> We are looking for a long-standing contributor with a good knowledge of
> the English Wikipedia and its policies and procedures.  You should also
> have a working knowledge of other projects.  You need to have infinite
> patience to reply to the same newbie questions time after time, and a
> friendly and helpful style of writing.  Most important is the ability
> not to laugh at people who write to tell us we have a massive security
> hole - an edit link on each page!!!11!.
>
> Being active on IRC is an advantage - it makes a real difference to be
> able to talk over the tricky ones sometimes.
>
> Pay is at the usual Wikipedia rate of lots of good feeling and all the
> cookies you can eat.
>
> Hopefully there will be a big rush of applicants for this wonderful job,
> and I will ask those volunteering to answer a few mails to see if you
> have the style we are looking for.  Jimbo will have the final say though.
>
> Please mail me directly rather than replying to the list if you are
> interested.
>
> Thanks,
>
> sannse
>
> p.s. I lied about the cookies
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Eyeon and SlimVirgin

body:
Can't you two just agree to disagree?

SlimVirgin, don't call Eyeon a troll or someone with sockpuppets until
you get some evidence from a developer and Eyeon, don't immediately
assume SlimVirgin is editing in bad faith. After all, SlimVirgin does
have a point about the deleted article and similar editing styles.

--Mgm


from_name: slimvirgin at gmail.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] On agreeing to disagree

body:
On 6/15/05, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/15/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > No IP check is being performed. SlimVirgin doesn't care about evidence. She
> > has said she will ignore the results of an IP check, and she said she will
> > continue to ban me from editing this article for 'being disruptive'.
> >
>
> Where did SlimVirgin say that? I'd like some links; diffs if possible.
>
> --Mgm

I'd like to see some diffs too. I also note that [[User:SlimVirgin's
Left Boob]] and [[User:SlimVirgin's Right Buttock]] have been
complaining of admin abuse on WP:AN/I. No relation, I'm sure, to
Eyeon, Niglet, and Fecologist.

Sarah


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration Commitee Seeking Comment

body:
Erik Moeller (erik_moeller at gmx.de) [050613 12:17]:

>  That is to say, the current practice of holding votes
> willy-nilly if you can get away with it

That is a stunningly accurate description of how it actually seems to occur
on en:, yes.

> needs to be stopped, and a
> proper framework should be developed instead that is compatible with our
> highest ideals.

I'm not quite sure how. Requiring all straw polls to be registered?

- d.


subject: [Foundation-l] Changes to voter eligibility

body:
Bjarte S?rensen wrote:

>Dear all,
>
>Please note below communication about the changes to voter
>eligibility. The election officials have unanimously decided to change
>the wording on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Elections_for_the_Board_of_Trustees_of_the_Wikimedia_Foundation%2C_2005/En
> to read:
>
>"In order to vote you must have at least 400 edits prior to 00:00 May
>30, 2005 (UTC) on the Wikimedia project from which you cast your vote.
>The first edit must have been 90 days or more before the time of
>voting."
>
This looks bad.  Whatever the reasons or validity of a particular change
it should NEVER happen once the election process has started.  It leaves
the impression that the election officials can move the goal posts at
any time.

Ec


body:
Angela wrote:

>Another point to note is that it would be helpful if volunteers to
>this were also willing to fix the articles that people write to us
>about. Although we tell them they can edit Wikipedia themselves,
>there's no guarantee they'll do that so the problems they raise in the
>emails often need to be fixed, or at least mentioned on the article's
>talk page.
>
>
Absolutely.  While casual visitors may find their right to make such
changes counter-intuitive this excuse should not be available for the
regular users with enough experience to respond to complaints.

The people who regularly nominate articles for cleanup would do well to
spend time doing cleanup instead of creating work for everyone else.

Ec


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On 6/15/05 10:05 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that we should have pre-composed responses to the most common
> questions.
>
> It may seem less personal, but it would certainly be easier and take less
> work.
>
> Rather than writing to Jim Doe "Thank you for pointing that out.
> Actually, Wikipedia is a.... and that's the whole point", and then to
> Jane Smith "Jane, we really appreciate your concern. However," and
> then to Joe Johnson "Joe, thanks for letting us know. Actually...", we
> can write consistently "Dear Name, Thanks for really appreciate

Hmmm..if only there was a page that listed commonly asked questions and gave
responses...we could call it the CAQ (Commonly Asked Questions).


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

references:
<42AAAFC0.4010601@yahoo.com>	<51dd1af8050611071232cc5374@mail.gmail.com>	<d8esel$psb$1@sea.gmane.org>	<d2f92e8b05061108006b0fecd6@mail.gmail.com>	<42AB0320.6040909@gmail.com>	<d8f4lt$de3$1@sea.gmane.org>	<42AD436D.5080508@wildgooses.com>	<d8kdht$lcp$1@sea.gmane.org>	<42ADC8FC.4040808@gmail.com>	<d8kqvr$24m$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<42AFF84A.7010803@telus.net>

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Tim Starling wrote:
>
>> This comes from a thread on wikitech-l, I'm cross-posting it to
>> wikipedia-l. Please reply on one list only.
>>
>> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> When developers aren't interested in working on functionality for the
>>> various projects of the foundation, we should find developers that are.
>>>
>>
>> Who is "we"? I joined Wikipedia well before the Foundation was formed,
>> I've watched it develop. I can't help but feel that myself and those who
>> share my views are underrepresented. I've argued for focus but I've been
>> ignored. Wikipedia has grown but has barely matured, the date for
>> "Wikipedia 1.0" keeps being pushed back with virtually no progress made.
>> Instead, any enthusiastic newcomer with an idea for a word we can
>> prepend "wiki" to is greeted with open arms, especially if they come
>> bearing money.
>>
> I can't comment on the money aspect, but apart from that there is much
> to what you say.  I find Gerard's comment somewhat increditible, and
> totally failing to understand people.  Imagine firing all the
> developers who do not jump to bring out someone's pet project! :-D   I
> wonder what his next trick would be.  I don't have the zeal for a lot
> of gadgety features, I very much prefer a solid system that works with
> a high degree of predictability.  I see Gerard trumpeting his Ultimate
> Wiktionary, yet he disclaims ability to programme this project.  I
> agree with you about the 1.0 but I see the problems there as being
> more social than technical. ... and that just brings us back to the
> question of leadership.

Who gives you the impression that programmers are to be fired ? What
gives you this idea ? The idea is to find programmers that are willing
to develop the functionality that is asked for. So if anything I am
looking for more developers. As to my programming skills, I have quite a
bit of experience but on different platforms. I have been spending my
time on other things than learning new platforms and programming
languages. A more relevant question on programming; would you prefer me
to program Ultimate Wiktionary or would you prefer Erik Moeller ? I
understand the complexity involved so I am happy to have a more able
person do the programming.

>> It would be all very well if Wikipedia could manage itself, but I don't
>> think it can, I think it lacks strong leadership. I don't think it's any
>> surprise that the German Wikipedia, with enthusiastic leadership largely
>> independent of the Foundation, has had more success with distribution
>> and quality control than the English Wikipedia.
>>
> The projects long ago passed the point where one person could maintain
> leadership over everything.  Some of the democracy that I've seen
> around has only served to strengthen my faith in dictatorship.
> Sometimes leadership a question of decisiveness when the need to take
> action becomes stronger than being right or wrong.  We are attractive
> to those who on a mass scale would recreate their ersatz world of
> diletantes and poetasters with a historical perspective as deep as the
> latest video game.  Policy discussions go around in circles with
> no-one knowing how, or having the courage to escape from the circle.
>
> Ec

If you want to break out of endless talk, stop talking and do something.
It is possible to get many things done. It is just a matter of doing
them. What you have to try to do is to explain what you are doing. The
process of Ultimate Wiktionary is a lengthy one, it will have taken a
year to go from initial concept to realisation. It is an experiment so
it will at first be running next to the existing wiktionaries. The
problems will proppably be solved and when it has proven itself,
wiktionaries will die off. It it does not they will not. So yes, you may
accuse me of decisiveness because I have a dream and I work on making it
a reality. When people do not understand what I am working on, I am
happy to explain. When you call for dictatorship, you mean that you want
things your way. I urge you to create your way and make plain why your
way is best. You do this by proving your point practically not by
rubbishing other people's efforts.

Thanks,
    GerardM

PS There are plenty of other tricks. I do publish about them, they are
not a secret.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Squid failures

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> A bunch of our squid proxies are currently offline with some sort of
> problem we haven't totally diagnosed yet, after fixing what looked like
> a straightforward configuration syntax error.
>
> Hopefully we'll have them all back online soon. Site may be intermittent
> until then.

Well, since no one followed up... The permissions on the squid.swap file
on serveral machines got screwed up somehow, we're not quite sure how.
Everything's fine now.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Question about page moves

body:
Edward Z. Yang wrote:
> Why is Mediawiki programmed like this?
>
> Page A ---OK MOVE---> Page B (history-less redirect to page A)
> but
> Page A ---BADMOVE---> Page B (history-less redirect to page C)

Could you explain the terms you're using here?
* What's an OK MOVE?
* What's a BADMOVE?
* How does a page C come in on BADMOVEs?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[Wikitech-l] What HTML tags and their attributes
	are	acceptablewithin the syntax by MediaWiki

body:
Shlomi Fish wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 June 2005 15:59, MHart wrote:
>
>>Check out http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:HTML_in_wikitext

I recommend against relying on any documentation you find on meta; look
in includes/Sanitizer.php for the current tag and element whitelists.

> Hmmm... I see that the style="" tag is transferred verbatim. This may cause
> problems with malicious CSS styles present there.
>
> See the attached message from the webdesign-L mailing list for details.

There doesn't appear to be an attached message; note that our list, like
many lists, strips many attachments. Consider using hyperlinks to
web-accessible archives.

We're stripping any use of expression() or things that appear to be URL
references in style attributes, if that's what you're referring to.

If you're referring to simply annoying styles such as position: crap,
that's allowed (for now) but easily revertable.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Delphine Ménard

body:
On 6/15/05, sannse <sannse at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> Pay is at the usual Wikipedia rate of lots of good feeling and all the
> cookies you can eat.

>
> p.s. I lied about the cookies

I only saw the PS after I hit the reply button. I was going to file a
complaint that I never got any cookies. Geez, how a dream can be
shattered in a single sentence...

On a more serious tone, a good knowledge of how to deal with hardly
English speakers is also a good asset.

And I will just add that the email help desk policy is that your real
name is displayed, rather than your nickname in Wikipedia, although
you send from a wikimedia address and your personal address is not
there. Thought you should know.

Cheers,

Delphine
--
~notafish


from_name: Tim Starling

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: I'm unblocked,
	but SlimVirgin STILL WON'T LET ME EDIT!

body:
slimvirgin wrote:
> I'm not censoring the image. I'm stopping the trolling.

You can't stop trolling, only push it from one place to another. Not
that that's a bad thing, by all means spread the load. And it's better
if we can keep it away from the articles.

Jane Halliwell wrote:
> Her behavior is a hell of a lot more offensive than any photo.

Hi Jane! LOL

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Edward Z. Yang

subject: [Wikitech-l] Question about page moves

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Why is Mediawiki programmed like this?

Page A ---OK MOVE---> Page B (history-less redirect to page A)
but
Page A ---BADMOVE---> Page B (history-less redirect to page C)

If it was:

Page A ---OK MOVE---> Page B (history-less redirect to page A)
Page A ---OK MOVE---> Page B (history-less redirect to page C)

Normal users would be able to clean up page-move vandals who:

Page A --MOVE--> Page B
Edit Page A

And effectively demand that an admin to the fixing. If the second set of
rules was implemented, then a user who wanted to revert this could:

Edited Page A --MOVE--> Page C
Page B --MOVE--> Page A
Speedy Page C or leave it there if it's in a user namespace.

I'm telling you, one of these days a vandal is going to realize that
Page moves require little work to be done but can cause massive damage
that requires lots of work to fix, and then create multiple puppet
accounts and capitilize on this behavior.

The only possible drawback that I can see with the second set of
behaviors is that it means pages are a bit jumpier: you can put them on
totally unrelated redirects, and you might lose some redirects in the
process. But hey, they're redirects.

- --
 Edward Z. Yang      Personal: edwardzyang at thewritingpot.com
 SN:Ambush Commander Website: http://www.thewritingpot.com/
 GPGKey:0x869C48DA   http://www.thewritingpot.com/gpgpubkey.asc
 3FA8 E9A9 7385 B691 A6FC B3CB A933 BE7D 869C 48DA
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFCsHAVqTO+fYacSNoRAgEeAJ9ll6Rx+nVDHSWa6VAsrnYpP9GKfACeIZr1
3UlA9fMhI8GK1DUgBQPqnDk=
=TJiI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: sannse

body:
Delphine M?nard wrote:
> On 6/15/05, sannse <sannse at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Pay is at the usual Wikipedia rate of lots of good feeling and all the
>>cookies you can eat.
>
>
>>p.s. I lied about the cookies
>
>
> I only saw the PS after I hit the reply button. I was going to file a
> complaint that I never got any cookies. Geez, how a dream can be
> shattered in a single sentence...

I promise, if we ever meet in person, I will make all your cookie dreams
come true ;)

> On a more serious tone, a good knowledge of how to deal with hardly
> English speakers is also a good asset.
>
> And I will just add that the email help desk policy is that your real
> name is displayed, rather than your nickname in Wikipedia, although
> you send from a wikimedia address and your personal address is not
> there. Thought you should know.

Although this is the norm on OTRS, I use a real-sounding nick there
rather than my real name.  I was not happy with being so public (I have
quite a distinctive name) so Jimbo agreed that I could become "Lisa
Carter" for the purposes of answering this mail.  I'm sure a similar
arrangement can be made for anyone else as paranoid and suspicious as me ;)

I've a nice little pile of mugs^Wgenerous volunteers now - I will be
talking to Jimbo and elian about this as soon as I see them.  Thanks folks

--sannse


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Policy on shocking images (was: Improper sysop
	behavior)

body:
On 6/15/05, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> The question for exclusion should be based on the images ability to
> inform. We should exclude content that has no value to teach.  This
> does not mean we should include every potentially informative image,
> but rather we should select the most informative subset and of the
> remaining equally most informative results we should select the ones
> which best satisfy secondary artistic and editorial criteria.

I think this is the correct approach. There's no problem with having
informative images, even if they are of human faeces. But there's no
reason why we cannot also take into account that certain people have
certain sensitivities, and choose an image that is more appropriate.

The image in question (a particularly sticky-looking poo) was chosen
for its particularly disgusting quality. It was intended to offend,
not to educate. We wouldn't tolerate intentionally offensive prose,
and we should not tolerate intentionally offensive images.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Rebecca

body:
Please, save us the trouble. Let us deal with more worthy cases -
people who are actually editing in good faith. Some people are just
asking to be banned - sending these people to the arbitration
committee just wastes our time, their time, and the time of those that
have to provide evidence.

-- ambi

On 6/15/05, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/14/05, slimvirgin at gmail.com <slimvirgin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Feces is protected only against further attempts by Eyeon to cause
> > trouble. If the regular editors on the page want to edit it, whether
> > to include the image or not, I'll unprotect it. I'm not censoring the
> > image. I'm stopping the trolling.
>
> Shouldn't you be taking this to arbcom rather than unilaterally taking
> complex measures to control what a user is permitted to edit?
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Theresa Knott

subject: [WikiEN-l] On agreeing to disagree

body:
On 6/15/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> No IP check is being performed. SlimVirgin doesn't care about evidence. She
> has said she will ignore the results of an IP check, and she said she will
> continue to ban me from editing this article for 'being disruptive'.

IP checks are not the be all and end all. If I wanted to start a
sockpuppet account I could easily do it through a different ISP than
my regular one.

> I am being denied due process. Should I just 'agree' to stay banned?

Whether you agree to it or not, the article is likely to remain
protected for a short while. I'd just edit some other articles for the
time being. Why is this one so important to you?

Theresa


from_name: Delirium

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> The people who regularly nominate articles for cleanup would do well
> to spend time doing cleanup instead of creating work for everyone else.

I think both have a purpose.  I've cleaned up (and written) hundreds (if
not thousands) of articles, but I don't always have time or expertise to
fix something I stumble across.  IMO, if I find a new page that is
clearly grossly subpar, it's better to at least tag it than to
completely leave it as is.  Not tagging it often leads to really
terrible non-articles not being discovered for months, since once stuff
gets past NewPages and RecentChanges, it gets buried amidst 500,000+
articles.  (And yes, I've found untouched stuff from 3-4 months ago when
hitting RandomPage).

-Mark


body:
BJ?rn Lindqvist wrote:

>Since there is currently an ongoing vote on the talk page, in which
>the alternative in favour of using the image has a lead, for fairness,
>I'd like to see the page restored to the verion in which the image is
>included. It is customary to let the option that has the majority
>opinion behind it be the protected version.
>
>
Actually it's generally customary to protect an arbitrary version,
unless there is an overwhelming majority (i.e. only one person versus
everyone else).  If it's even remotely close, we just protect a random
version, so as to avoid continuing edit wars over which version should
be protected.

-Mark


from_name: Shlomi Fish

body:
Hi!

I'd like to ask what HTML tags and which of their attributes are acceptable
within the MediaWiki syntax? I've looked at Parser.php but it's confusing.

I need it because I and some other guy are writing a parser and HTML converter
for MediaWiki syntax in Perl.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures
is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of
paragraphs.


from_name: Guaka

body:
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:34 +0200, Delphine M?nard wrote:
> On 6/15/05, sannse <sannse at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Pay is at the usual Wikipedia rate of lots of good feeling and all the
> > cookies you can eat.
>
> >
> > p.s. I lied about the cookies
>
> I only saw the PS after I hit the reply button. I was going to file a
> complaint that I never got any cookies. Geez, how a dream can be
> shattered in a single sentence...

Maybe an issue the Mediawiki developers can help with: there should be a
strictly personal page for helpdesk people where they can get as many
cookies as they want.


from_name: Sj

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikinews Rwanda newshut

body:
But it's a big newshit with all the agglutinative language speakers.
<ducks>

SJ

On 6/15/05, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> Erik Moeller wrote:
> > Besides Wikinews radio, there's another exciting development on the
> > English Wikinews: the Rwanda newshut.
>
> Now there's a compound word sorely in need of a space. Am I the only one
> who read it as "new shut"?
>
> Oh, and great project.
>
> -- Tim Starling


from_name: Finne Boonen

body:
are you sure no cookies are possible? not even if you're attending wikimania?

:)

Finne

On 6/15/05, Guaka <guaka at no-log.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:34 +0200, Delphine M?nard wrote:
> > On 6/15/05, sannse <sannse at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Pay is at the usual Wikipedia rate of lots of good feeling and all the
> > > cookies you can eat.
> >
> > >
> > > p.s. I lied about the cookies
> >
> > I only saw the PS after I hit the reply button. I was going to file a
> > complaint that I never got any cookies. Geez, how a dream can be
> > shattered in a single sentence...
>
> Maybe an issue the Mediawiki developers can help with: there should be a
> strictly personal page for helpdesk people where they can get as many
> cookies as they want.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Maybe you knew early on that your track went from point A to B, but
unlike you I wasn't given a map at birth!" Alyssa, "Chasing Amy"
http://hekla.rave.org/cookbook.html - my crossplatform dieet/recipe app


from_name: Rick

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Discussion on English Wikipedia in languages other
	than English

body:
--- Habj <sweetadelaide at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/14/05, Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, for one thing, it's rude.  And it's
> especially
> > troublesome when one of the people involved is a
> > sysop.
>
> This sounds more and more like a specific case. Have
> you tried to talk
> to him or her about it?
>
> /Habj

Discussions have not been productive.

RickK

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


body:
--- Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:

> These are her words, at the bottom of talk:feces:
>
> 'As for page protection, I won't unprotect it at
> your request, but I'll do
> so if any other regular editor wants to edit.'
>
> This is an abuse of power. She is attempting to
> control the content of the
> article, pretending not to take a side in an content
> dispute, while
> everything she does favors the pro-censorship
> minority.
>
> Her behavior is a hell of a lot more offensive than
> any photo.

That last paragraph is certainly an opinion.  Your
opinion.  But it is not necessarily the opinion of
others.  At least, as far as I am concerned, edit
warring is considerably more offensive, as is repeated
whining on the mailing list.  Consider your behavior.
Stop violating the three revert rule, stop trying to
get valuable members of the community stripped of
their sysop privileges, and learn to edit like a
respected member of the community.  Even before this
began, I mentioned your very odd behavior concerning
the use of the feces image on the Administrators'
board.  Whether you have a fetish or whether you're
trolling, I don't know, but your behavior has been
slightly bizarre from the very beginning.

Now, like I said:  Learn how to deal with others and
you won't get blocked.  Discuss things on the Talk
pages and listen to consensus.

RickK

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html


from_name: Jane Halliwell

subject: [WikiEN-l] On agreeing to disagree

body:
> > On 6/15/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > No IP check is being performed. SlimVirgin doesn't care about
>evidence. She
> > > has said she will ignore the results of an IP check, and she said she
>will
> > > continue to ban me from editing this article for 'being disruptive'.
> > >
> >
> > Where did SlimVirgin say that? I'd like some links; diffs if possible.
> >
> > --Mgm
>
>I'd like to see some diffs too. I also note that [[User:SlimVirgin's
>Left Boob]] and [[User:SlimVirgin's Right Buttock]] have been
>complaining of admin abuse on WP:AN/I. No relation, I'm sure, to
>Eyeon, Niglet, and Fecologist.
>
>Sarah

I am no relation to your left boob/right buttock friend. Read exactly what
they said. They are someone who went to the arbitration committee over an
issue and were turned down. They put the quote in an obscure place in a way
that wouldn't help my cause, and didn't sign it. That would be a complete
waste of my time. That's not me. Other people are pissed at you. It looks
like you have a history of using your adminship in a disruptive way.

Links/diffs/quotes to follow.

Jane

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee?
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


subject: [WikiEN-l] Photo size and tangential plastering

body:
--- Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Um,
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mr._Hankey&diff=14680800&oldid=14680706
>
> That is vandalism, without any doubt.  I think
> SlimVirgin was within
> her rights. Harsh, but arguably fair.
>
> Sam

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flatulence&diff=prev&oldid=14714726

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Defecation&diff=prev&oldid=14704909

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scatology&diff=prev&oldid=14680765

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sewage&diff=prev&oldid=14680795

These edits, all made on the same day, only two days
after Eyeon first came on board, were what made me
suggest that we needed to keep an eye on him/her.

RickK

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


subject: [Wikitech-l] Question about page moves

body:
> Could you explain the terms you're using here?
> * What's an OK MOVE?

A move that works, that is, it's allowed by the system. Moving a page to
a nonexistent page is an "OK MOVE". Moving a page to a history-less
redirect is usually an OK MOVE.

> * What's a BADMOVE?

A move that doesn't work: failed move, can't do it, that sort of thing.
Should have said failed move or something. Moving a page to another
Article with a history is a BADMOVE.

>> Page A ---BADMOVE---> Page B (history-less redirect to page C)
> * How does a page C come in on BADMOVEs?

Page C in the example you cited is just some random page the redirect
points to. It's important to distinguish between page B and page C the
same way this works:

Penguin is an article
Phoenix is an article
Ice Bird is a history-less redirect to Penguin
Fire Bird is a history-less redirect to Phoenix

You can move Penguin to Ice Bird but not to Fire Bird. Phoenix is our
"Article C"

Hope that cleared things up.

--
 Edward Z. Yang      Personal: edwardzyang at thewritingpot.com
 SN:Ambush Commander Website: http://www.thewritingpot.com/
 GPGKey:0x869C48DA   http://www.thewritingpot.com/gpgpubkey.asc
 3FA8 E9A9 7385 B691 A6FC B3CB A933 BE7D 869C 48DA


body:
--- BJ?rn Lindqvist <bjourne at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Actually it's generally customary to protect an
> arbitrary version,
> > unless there is an overwhelming majority (i.e.
> only one person versus
> > everyone else).  If it's even remotely close, we
> just protect a random
> > version, so as to avoid continuing edit wars over
> which version should
> > be protected.
>
> I don't think I have *ever* witnessed an admin
> protect a page to
> revistion that person did not favour. So it can't be
> *totally* random.
> :) I'd say that the custom is to protect to a the
> version that gets
> most votes, if the number of votes one casts is
> proportional to how
> much social influence one has. But it is a bad
> custom. Besides, now
> you have also received a written *request*  to
> change to the majority
> opinions version. SlimVirgin also said that she
> would "allow" other
> persons than Eyeon to edit the page.

What an utterly OUTRAGEOUS comment!  Who the HELL do
you think you are?  To make such a vicious attack on
the good names of each and every single admin?!  I am
appalled, and I, personally, demand an apology!

RickK

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html


subject: [WikiEN-l] Two simple steps to make me go away

body:
--- Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:

> 1) Rather than suffer through continued slurs of
> sockpuppetry, I formally
> request a proper investigation. I want an IP check
> and I want the admins to
> respect the results.
>
> 2) I would like the admins to respect the wishes of
> the majority of editors
> on Talk:Feces. The page should be unblocked and the
> photo should be allowed
> to return.

A permanent block would do just as well.

RickK

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Sam Korn

body:
Um, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mr._Hankey&diff=14680800&oldid=14680706

That is vandalism, without any doubt.  I think SlimVirgin was within
her rights. Harsh, but arguably fair.

Sam

On 6/14/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> SlimVirgin has misrepresented the situation. The photo was never larger than
> 250px - the same size as the other two photos. If you note on the talk:feces
> page, nobody ever objected to the size of photo. However, I REDUCED the size
> of the photos from 250px to 200px. Me. I did. Just for better layout. And
> the image was not 'plastered all over tangential' articles. It was added to
> defecation and one other. In those cases, other editors simply removed the
> picture, and I deferred to their judgement and did not re-post it. Is this
> vandalism?
>
> Jane
>
> >I don't feel that including an image of human feces is inappropriate.
> >Having it huge and then  plastered all over tangentially-related
> >articles is vandalism, and Eyeon should note that _that_ is a
> >perfectly valid reason for being blocked.
> >
> >Sam
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
1) Rather than suffer through continued slurs of sockpuppetry, I formally
request a proper investigation. I want an IP check and I want the admins to
respect the results.

2) I would like the admins to respect the wishes of the majority of editors
on Talk:Feces. The page should be unblocked and the photo should be allowed
to return.

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] On agreeing to disagree

body:
On 6/15/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> No IP check is being performed. SlimVirgin doesn't care about evidence. She
> has said she will ignore the results of an IP check, and she said she will
> continue to ban me from editing this article for 'being disruptive'.
>

Where did SlimVirgin say that? I'd like some links; diffs if possible.

--Mgm


subject: [Wikitech-l] Question about page moves

body:
> I used to be completely paranoid about vandals using page moves to
> shuffle article titles, by repeatedly swapping titles via a temporary
> page. That is, until I realised this attack was already protected
> against, using the feature you describe above.

A feature, hmm...

> This has already happened several times, we've seen this scenario played
> out to the fullest extent. We've implemented a few features to deal with
> it, such as "undo" links in RC and checks for "newbies" attempting to
> move pages. Allowing users to move over arbitrary redirects would open
> us up to truly irreversible attacks, rather than just attacks reversible
> only by admins.

What you mean by irreversible you mean that the page jumps over
arbitrary redirects and you can't just click "undo" to reverse them all?
Hmm... that would be a problem.

(aside) Excepting the fact that redirects (usually) are pretty
straightforward when it comes correlations (but still, it's not as
convenient as UNDO.

I'm not sure anymore. Page moves are such an arcane matter and most
Wikipedians wouldn't know what to do about page move weirdness. Then
again, after really looking at the system, I'm starting to think that
the way page moves is implemented is genius: a mix between giving the
users control and keeping the situation under control.

And Brion, err, sorry, I sorta tried out my theory on the Volapuk
article and forgot to clean up my mess. :oops: I added a little extra
documentation on this feature on the Metawiki page on Page Moves.

--
 Edward Z. Yang      Personal: edwardzyang at thewritingpot.com
 SN:Ambush Commander Website: http://www.thewritingpot.com/
 GPGKey:0x869C48DA   http://www.thewritingpot.com/gpgpubkey.asc
 3FA8 E9A9 7385 B691 A6FC B3CB A933 BE7D 869C 48DA


from_name: Angela

body:
On 15/06/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think that we should have pre-composed responses to the most common questions.

We do have some template replies, but there a huge range of queries
every day and boilerplate responses would not be helpful for a lot of
them.

Another point to note is that it would be helpful if volunteers to
this were also willing to fix the articles that people write to us
about. Although we tell them they can edit Wikipedia themselves,
there's no guarantee they'll do that so the problems they raise in the
emails often need to be fixed, or at least mentioned on the article's
talk page.

Angela.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Wanted - help desk helpers

body:
Many thanks to all those who replied.  We decided to choose the first
two who applied as there were so many good people to choose from.  We
may expand the team further in the future (almost certainly if the
workload keeps going up) but for now, we have added JamesF and Mindspillage.

Thanks again to everyone who volunteered

--sannse

sannse wrote:
> Now that the info-en email address is on the "contact us" pages, the
> amount of mail is increasing, and we need more help.
>
> We are looking for a long-standing contributor with a good knowledge of
> the English Wikipedia and its policies and procedures.  You should also
> have a working knowledge of other projects.  You need to have infinite
> patience to reply to the same newbie questions time after time, and a
> friendly and helpful style of writing.  Most important is the ability
> not to laugh at people who write to tell us we have a massive security
> hole - an edit link on each page!!!11!.
>
> Being active on IRC is an advantage - it makes a real difference to be
> able to talk over the tricky ones sometimes.
>
> Pay is at the usual Wikipedia rate of lots of good feeling and all the
> cookies you can eat.
>
> Hopefully there will be a big rush of applicants for this wonderful job,
> and I will ask those volunteering to answer a few mails to see if you
> have the style we are looking for.  Jimbo will have the final say though.
>
> Please mail me directly rather than replying to the list if you are
> interested.
>
> Thanks,
>
> sannse
>
> p.s. I lied about the cookies
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wanted - help desk helpers


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

body:
On 6/15/05, Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Um, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mr._Hankey&diff=14680800&oldid=14680706
> > That is vandalism, without any doubt.  I think
> > SlimVirgin was within
> > her rights. Harsh, but arguably fair.
> > Sam
> See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flatulence&diff=prev&oldid=14714726
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Defecation&diff=prev&oldid=14704909
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scatology&diff=prev&oldid=14680765
> and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sewage&diff=prev&oldid=14680795
> These edits, all made on the same day, only two days
> after Eyeon first came on board, were what made me
> suggest that we needed to keep an eye on him/her.

It looks like we've forgotten the difference between good faith but
crap and actual vandalism.  It might well by that the editor in
question has poor taste and judgement, and she might well be a
weirdo... But that isn't vandalism.


body:
On 6/15/05, Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> A permanent block would do just as well.
> RickK

Hm, alas, it wouldn't work on you... you'd probably just unblock yourself. :)

The request isn't out of line. The other editors on that article are
not complaining that Eyeon is not cooperating.


body:
On 6/15/05, Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I don't think I have *ever* witnessed an admin
> > protect a page to
> > revistion that person did not favour. So it can't be
> > *totally* random.
> > :) I'd say that the custom is to protect to a the
> > version that gets
> > most votes, if the number of votes one casts is
> > proportional to how
> > much social influence one has. But it is a bad
> > custom. Besides, now
> > you have also received a written *request*  to
> > change to the majority
> > opinions version. SlimVirgin also said that she
> > would "allow" other
> > persons than Eyeon to edit the page.
>
> What an utterly OUTRAGEOUS comment!  Who the HELL do
> you think you are?  To make such a vicious attack on
> the good names of each and every single admin?!  I am
> appalled, and I, personally, demand an apology!

What completely random outrage. I don't see anything claimed about
that anyone should be offended about. I am appalled, and I,
personally, demand emails to the list that actually make sense!


from_name: Sean Barrett

body:
> As such, I'm formally telling you "no", and admins wouldn't have
> anything to respect even if there wasn't a match.

Speaking as an arbiter (though not for the entire Committee, who are
quite capable of speaking for themselves), I support David's decision.
Ms. Halliwell will have to find another way to prove that she isn't a
puppeteer (puppetrix?).

I can trivially arrange to edit from three radically different
sets of addresses: my home DSL, my work VPN, and a .mil network.

--
 Sean Barrett     | Space isn't remote at all. It's only a
 sean at epoptic.com | couple hours' drive away if your car
                  | could go straight upwards. --Fred Hoyle


body:
>Jane Halliwell (hundredpurses at hotmail.com) [050616 08:21]:
>
> > 1) Rather than suffer through continued slurs of sockpuppetry, I
>formally
> > request a proper investigation. I want an IP check and I want the admins
>to
> > respect the results.
>
>
>As one of the poeple who performs such checks (and I get so many requests
>for them and the consensus on what I should be able to check is presently
>sufficiently unclear that I only do stuff conceivable AC-related, which
>this isn't), I can tell you - and anyone who's read [m:CheckUser]] should
>also realise - that a lack of IP match would not disprove a thing. Not
>having an IP match is pathetically easy to arrange. As such, I'm formally
>telling you "no", and admins wouldn't have anything to respect even if
>there wasn't a match.
>
>
>- d.

So SlimVirgin is permitted to block me indefinitely from editing the
article, based on nothing but suspicion, while most other admins, who agree
I'm being treated unfairly, do nothing. And Dave spends more time denying me
due process than he would have spent to check the IP, because there is no
consensus that he should.

Picture or no picture, Wikipedia is full of shit.

I left notes for the newbies Fecologist and Niglet. I can't wait for them to
find out how they've been treated.

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


from_name: Bjarte Sørensen

body:
Dear all,

Please note below communication about the changes to voter
eligibility. The election officials have unanimously decided to change
the wording on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Elections_for_the_Board_of_Trustees_of_the_Wikimedia_Foundation%2C_2005/En
 to read:

"In order to vote you must have at least 400 edits prior to 00:00 May
30, 2005 (UTC) on the Wikimedia project from which you cast your vote.
The first edit must have been 90 days or more before the time of
voting."

Cheers,

Bjarte Sorensen, Assistant Election Official

> On 13/06/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > A highlight from the first board meeting this month:
> > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings/June_7%2C_2005
> >
> > "The election committee is advised to discuss with their technical
> > contact the software required for the election, and to determine
> > whether the 400 edit limit is technically feasible."
> >
> > Has there been any meeting with Tim yet to check the software will
> > meet your requirements?
> >
> > Angela
> >
>

On 14/06/05, Bjarte S?rensen <bjarte.sorensen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I spoke to Tim earlier about this, and he said it is not difficult to
> check for 400 edits on ONE project, neither is it difficult to check
> the date of the first edit. It IS hard/impossible to check across more
> than one wiki. When we in the end decided that it was going to be
> allowable to vote for people with 400 edits in TOTAL, I assumed that
> we were going to manually check for this with anyone who appealed to
> us. However, it's been pointed out several times the flaw with this as
> people may have different user names on different projects, IP numbers
> are not stored for long enough to check whether two users are editing
> from the same computers, and the whole thing could potentially be
> abused. Not to mention the extra work... :)
>
> So based on this, I propose that we change the current wording
>
> "In order to vote you must have at least 400 edits in total on the
> Wikimedia projects prior to 0:00 May 30, 2005 (UTC) and at least one
> of those must have been 90 days before the time of voting."
>
> to
>
> "In order to vote you must have at least 400 edits prior to 00:00 May
> 30, 2005 (UTC) on the Wikimedia project from which you cast your vote.
> The first edit must have been 90 days or more before the time of
> voting."
>
> From what I understood when I spoke to Tim, this should be fairly
> easy, but I'll run it by him before we put it up on meta.
>
> Everyone agrees?
>
> Cheers, Bjarte Sorensen
>


from_name: slimvirgin at gmail.com

body:
On 6/15/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Have you seen the Talk page? I have as many entries in the discussion as any
> other editor, and public opinion was in favor of my position: 18 to 10 to 2
> to 1.
>
But you'll notice no other editor has asked for the page to be unprotected.

Sarah


from_name: BJörn Lindqvist

body:
> not to educate. We wouldn't tolerate intentionally offensive prose,
> and we should not tolerate intentionally offensive images.

Only in the last 20th century there has happened hundreds of massacres
that a textual description of would make anyone sick to their stomach.
Should we not tolerate someone writing or reciting this?

Loose the word "intentionally" because noone can accurately guess
someon else intent. Loose the word "offensive" because not everyone
takes offense. What you are left with is a picture of shit in an
article about shit.

You have heard it lots that Wikipedia is not a "vehicle of free
speech". But Wikipedia is not a vehicle for the morale conservatists
to present their opinion as the truth.

--
mvh Bj?rn


body:
> Feces is protected only against further attempts by Eyeon to cause
> trouble. If the regular editors on the page want to edit it, whether
> to include the image or not, I'll unprotect it. I'm not censoring the
> image. I'm stopping the trolling.

Since there is currently an ongoing vote on the talk page, in which
the alternative in favour of using the image has a lead, for fairness,
I'd like to see the page restored to the verion in which the image is
included. It is customary to let the option that has the majority
opinion behind it be the protected version.

--
mvh Bj?rn


body:
> > Her behavior is a hell of a lot more offensive than
> > any photo.
>
>That last paragraph is certainly an opinion.  Your
>opinion.  But it is not necessarily the opinion of
>others.  At least, as far as I am concerned, edit
>warring is considerably more offensive,

Edit warring is bad. But it takes two to tango. Why single me out? Look at
the history of feces and talk:feces. Blocking me is not justified. Everyone
happened to be online at the same time. On both sides of the issue.

>Stop violating the three revert rule.

I did not violate the 3rr. In fact, NOBODY that day did. And even if they
did, that's no reason to continue blocking me from editing that page. The
rules are, its a MAXIMUM 24 hour block. SlimVirgin has said she is using the
page lock ONLY to keep me from editing it. The effect: She is extending the
3rr penalty for as long as she feels like.

>Now, like I said:  Learn how to deal with others and
>you won't get blocked.  Discuss things on the Talk pages and listen to
>consensus.

Have you seen the Talk page? I have as many entries in the discussion as any
other editor, and public opinion was in favor of my position: 18 to 10 to 2
to 1.

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


body:
> Actually it's generally customary to protect an arbitrary version,
> unless there is an overwhelming majority (i.e. only one person versus
> everyone else).  If it's even remotely close, we just protect a random
> version, so as to avoid continuing edit wars over which version should
> be protected.

I don't think I have *ever* witnessed an admin protect a page to
revistion that person did not favour. So it can't be *totally* random.
:) I'd say that the custom is to protect to a the version that gets
most votes, if the number of votes one casts is proportional to how
much social influence one has. But it is a bad custom. Besides, now
you have also received a written *request*  to change to the majority
opinions version. SlimVirgin also said that she would "allow" other
persons than Eyeon to edit the page.

--
mvh Bj?rn


in_reply_to:
<e692861c050615205829c4cc37@mail.gmail.com> (message from Gregory
	Maxwell on Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:58:49 -0400)

body:
> But why should the burden be on the user?

For a very simple reason: because she demands that we put
the burden on her.

--
 Sean Barrett     | From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.
 sean at epoptic.com | --Anakin Skywalker, choosing the Dark
                  | Side and abandoning NPOV


subject:
[Wikitech-l] What HTML tags and their attributes are
	acceptablewithin the syntax by MediaWiki

body:
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 15:59, MHart wrote:
> Check out http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:HTML_in_wikitext
>
> - MHart
>

Hmmm... I see that the style="" tag is transferred verbatim. This may cause
problems with malicious CSS styles present there.

See the attached message from the webdesign-L mailing list for details.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shlomi Fish" <shlomif at iglu.org.il>
> To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 7:53 AM
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] What HTML tags and their attributes are
> acceptablewithin the syntax by MediaWiki
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > I'd like to ask what HTML tags and which of their attributes are
> > acceptable
> > within the MediaWiki syntax? I've looked at Parser.php but it's
> > confusing.
> >
> > I need it because I and some other guy are writing a parser and HTML
> > converter
> > for MediaWiki syntax in Perl.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Shlomi Fish
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
> > Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/
> >
> > Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures
> > is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of
> > paragraphs.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures
is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of
paragraphs.


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration Committee Seeking Comment

body:
Jimmy Wales said:
> Tony Sidaway wrote:
>> Fred Bauder said:
>>
>>>Folk with eccentric points of view such as splinter political parties
>>>often maintain websites and sometimes even publish books.
>>>
>>
>> Then those websites and books are pretty good references for their
>> opinions.  I don't see a problem here.  A flat earth society website
>> is an excellent reference for a description of the views of that
>> society.
>
> Strawman argument.  No one is suggesting that we can't refer to such
> source _for a description of their views_.

Then I must have misunderatood the argument entirely.  That is all they
could possibly be useful for.>
> What we must say, if we are to be serious at all, is that the views of
> the flat earth society are totally inappropriate for a serious article
> on serious scientific views of the world.

Absolutely.  This shouldn't need to be stated.  No one source can dictate
the nature of reality.


subject: [WikiEN-l] I'm unblocked, but SlimVirgin STILL WON'T LET ME EDIT!

body:
--- Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/15/05, Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I don't think I have *ever* witnessed an admin
> > > protect a page to
> > > revistion that person did not favour. So it
> can't be
> > > *totally* random.
> > > :) I'd say that the custom is to protect to a
> the
> > > version that gets
> > > most votes, if the number of votes one casts is
> > > proportional to how
> > > much social influence one has. But it is a bad
> > > custom. Besides, now
> > > you have also received a written *request*  to
> > > change to the majority
> > > opinions version. SlimVirgin also said that she
> > > would "allow" other
> > > persons than Eyeon to edit the page.
> >
> > What an utterly OUTRAGEOUS comment!  Who the HELL
> do
> > you think you are?  To make such a vicious attack
> on
> > the good names of each and every single admin?!  I
> am
> > appalled, and I, personally, demand an apology!
>
> What completely random outrage. I don't see anything
> claimed about
> that anyone should be offended about. I am appalled,
> and I,
> personally, demand emails to the list that actually
> make sense!

Of course, you cut off the part that I was p*ssed off
about, intentionally, I'm sure.

RickK

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


body:
--- Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Picture or no picture, Wikipedia is full of shit.

Well, that did it for me, you're in my troll filter.
I won't be seeing your emails any more.

RickK

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html


body:
> > Have you seen the Talk page? I have as many entries in the discussion as
>any
> > other editor, and public opinion was in favor of my position: 18 to 10
>to 2
> > to 1.
> >
>But you'll notice no other editor has asked for the page to be unprotected.
>
>Sarah

And you'll notice that someone asking to borrow a car, doesn't always ask
for the ignition key. They just ask to borrow the car.

Check the talk page. People have said they want the image back. You deny
them because they didn't use admin terminology?

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


body:
--- Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/15/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > As I said before, any admin could unprotect the
> article; there must be at
> > least a couple of dozen who have read these
> e-mails.  Somehow none have,
> > until now, found your arguments for unprotecting
> to be compelling; perhaps
> > they feel that doing so would simply re-start a
> revert war, which is what
> > page protection is intended to forestall in the
> first place.
>
> Eh, more like worried about an admin protect war,
> ... even less desirable.

It's amazing how you seem to know everybody else's
motives.

RickK

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


body:
--- Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/15/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> > Speaking as an arbiter (though not for the entire
> Committee, who are
> > quite capable of speaking for themselves), I
> support David's decision.
> > Ms. Halliwell will have to find another way to
> prove that she isn't a
> > puppeteer (puppetrix?).
>
> But why should the burden be on the user?
> Can you prove that it's not you who really controls
> Ms. Halliwell?
> As you are well aware, there is no way for someone
> to prove they
> aren't... Even if they show up at a meetup with
> people claiming to be
> the other accounts it's always possible that they
> didn't start that
> way.
>
> Lets save the blocks for users who won't discuss and
> compromise, and
> save the protects for quelling active revert wars
> until a decision is
> made on the talk pages.. Votes made by people
> without a real
> contribution history should be discounted
> accordingly, sockpuppett or
> not.
>
> We seem to spend a lot of time assigning huge
> importance to
> sockpuppets when we really can't do anything about
> it if the user is
> really trying... we shouldn't bother..
>
> Oh I know, we'll have a wikisockpuppet test:
> We will send ninjas to go kill the suspected
> puppeteer, and if the
> socks never edit again we'll know we were right!

Bored now.  Off you go into my blocked addresses file.

RickK

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Mark Pellegrini (mapellegrini at comcast.net) [050615 15:01]:

> /Please, save us the trouble. Let us deal with more worthy cases -
> people who are actually editing in good faith. Some people are just
> asking to be banned - sending these people to the arbitration
> committee just wastes our time, their time, and the time of those that
> have to provide evidence. -- ambi/

> Hallelujah and Amen.

I'll just third that. This is what the AC means when we answer
clarification requests by saying "Just shoot them." Admins don't need the
AC to tell them how to deal with blatant trolling. If in doubt, run it past
[[WP:AN/I]], taking care to ign^Waccord appropriate notice to the peanut
gallery. This is an encyclopedia, not a gallery of breaching experiments.

- d.


body:
>Perhaps we should alert Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International.
>
>Jay.

I'm not asking for a lot. Don't mock people who ask for help. God help you
if you ever need any.

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


body:
>perhaps they feel that doing so would simply re-start a revert war, which
>is what page protection is intended to forestall in the first place.
>
>Jay.

SlimVirgin is not using page protection to forestall a revert war. She is
using it to prevent me from editing. She is on record as saying she will
lift the block if anyone asks her to, with one exception. Me.

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


body:
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 21:32, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 June 2005 15:59, MHart wrote:
> > Check out http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:HTML_in_wikitext
> >
> > - MHart
>
> Hmmm... I see that the style="" tag is transferred verbatim. This may cause
> problems with malicious CSS styles present there.
>
> See the attached message from the webdesign-L mailing list for details.
>

Hmmm... the attached message was discared by the mailing list manager here. In
any case, here it is:

http://www.shlomifish.org/WD-preventing-malicious-CSS.txt

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> Regards,
>
> 	Shlomi Fish
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shlomi Fish" <shlomif at iglu.org.il>
> > To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 7:53 AM
> > Subject: [Wikitech-l] What HTML tags and their attributes are
> > acceptablewithin the syntax by MediaWiki
> >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > I'd like to ask what HTML tags and which of their attributes are
> > > acceptable
> > > within the MediaWiki syntax? I've looked at Parser.php but it's
> > > confusing.
> > >
> > > I need it because I and some other guy are writing a parser and HTML
> > > converter
> > > for MediaWiki syntax in Perl.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Shlomi Fish
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
> > > Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/
> > >
> > > Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for
> > > closures is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the
> > > beginning of paragraphs.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures
is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of
paragraphs.


from_name: Andy Rabagliati

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: WCCE and Wikipedia etc.

body:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Kim Tucker wrote: (mailing list copied)

> Hi Andy,
> How is everything?

Lets start with the big questions :-)
Working currently on an easily installable "wizzy server" that does email in an occasionally-connected location.
Mostly via dialup these days, but I hope via USB memory stick.

> Are you by any chance going to WCCE? (we have exhibition space and a demo slot).

Looking at the dates, no :-(

> We are preparing a box of CDs to distribute and considered including extracts of Wikipedia.

> Do you have a subset which would fit on one or at most 2 CDs which could be distributed
> without risk of bad content inside? - and ideally relevant content which would be of use
> even to people in Africa?

I carry wikipedia around on an external hard drive, for installation at schools.

Capacity quickly wizzed through a DVD last year ..

I have been deleting my 2004 copies (which would fit your criteria) - maybe I shouldn't.
However, old dumps are fine (just as good as today's dumps, I didn't read the old one yet).

I think the 'bad content' (and 2 CD) criteria could be easily satisfied with a text-only recent dump.

Text-only carries everything, but lacks pizazz (and porn).

But that is what I recommend. Any others should be sent to Kim directly.

Cheers,  Andy!


from_name: JAY JG

body:
>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>
>I did not violate the 3rr. In fact, NOBODY that day did. And even if they
>did, that's no reason to continue blocking me from editing that page. The
>rules are, its a MAXIMUM 24 hour block.

As far as I can tell, you're not blocked at all. Rather, the page is locked.
That means it's locked for everyone.  And there's no maximum 24 rule on page
locks.

>SlimVirgin has said she is using the page lock ONLY to keep me from editing
>it. The effect: She is extending the 3rr penalty for as long as she feels
>like.

Well, any other admin could unlock it if they wanted.  And what exactly is
that "penalty" again?  You're not being allowed to add a picture of a giant
yellow turd to a Wikipedia article?  Perhaps we should alert Human Rights
Watch or Amnesty International.

Jay.


body:
>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>
>
>> > Have you seen the Talk page? I have as many entries in the discussion
>>as any
>> > other editor, and public opinion was in favor of my position: 18 to 10
>>to 2
>> > to 1.
>> >
>>But you'll notice no other editor has asked for the page to be
>>unprotected.
>>
>>Sarah
>
>And you'll notice that someone asking to borrow a car, doesn't always ask
>for the ignition key. They just ask to borrow the car.
>
>Check the talk page. People have said they want the image back. You deny
>them because they didn't use admin terminology?

As I said before, any admin could unprotect the article; there must be at
least a couple of dozen who have read these e-mails.  Somehow none have,
until now, found your arguments for unprotecting to be compelling; perhaps
they feel that doing so would simply re-start a revert war, which is what
page protection is intended to forestall in the first place.

Jay.


body:
On 6/15/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> As I said before, any admin could unprotect the article; there must be at
> least a couple of dozen who have read these e-mails.  Somehow none have,
> until now, found your arguments for unprotecting to be compelling; perhaps
> they feel that doing so would simply re-start a revert war, which is what
> page protection is intended to forestall in the first place.

Eh, more like worried about an admin protect war, ... even less desirable.


from_name: Anthere

body:
Andy Rabagliati a ?crit:
 > On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Kim Tucker wrote: (mailing list copied)
 >
 >
 >>Hi Andy,
 >>How is everything?
 >
 >
 > Lets start with the big questions :-)
 > Working currently on an easily installable "wizzy server" that does
email in an occasionally-connected location.
 > Mostly via dialup these days, but I hope via USB memory stick.
 >
 >
 >>Are you by any chance going to WCCE? (we have exhibition space and a
demo slot).
 >
 >
 > Looking at the dates, no :-(
 >
 >
 >>We are preparing a box of CDs to distribute and considered including
extracts of Wikipedia.
 >
 >
 >>Do you have a subset which would fit on one or at most 2 CDs which
could be distributed
 >>without risk of bad content inside? - and ideally relevant content
which would be of use
 >>even to people in Africa?
 >
 >
 > I carry wikipedia around on an external hard drive, for installation
at schools.
 >
 > Capacity quickly wizzed through a DVD last year ..
 >
 > I have been deleting my 2004 copies (which would fit your criteria) -
maybe I shouldn't.
 > However, old dumps are fine (just as good as today's dumps, I didn't
read the old one yet).
 >
 > I think the 'bad content' (and 2 CD) criteria could be easily
satisfied with a text-only recent dump.
 >
 > Text-only carries everything, but lacks pizazz (and porn).
 >
 > But that is what I recommend. Any others should be sent to Kim directly.
 >
 > Cheers,  Andy!

Not sure exactly where this mail comes from (/me perplex)... but
text-only encyclopedia, though safer, is a bit restricted :-(

I actually would prefer we set up a system with taggued pages than to
strip all images :-( but well... it takes less room

What is a "wizzy" server ?
ant


body:
On 6/15/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> Speaking as an arbiter (though not for the entire Committee, who are
> quite capable of speaking for themselves), I support David's decision.
> Ms. Halliwell will have to find another way to prove that she isn't a
> puppeteer (puppetrix?).

But why should the burden be on the user?
Can you prove that it's not you who really controls Ms. Halliwell?
As you are well aware, there is no way for someone to prove they
aren't... Even if they show up at a meetup with people claiming to be
the other accounts it's always possible that they didn't start that
way.

Lets save the blocks for users who won't discuss and compromise, and
save the protects for quelling active revert wars until a decision is
made on the talk pages.. Votes made by people without a real
contribution history should be discounted accordingly, sockpuppett or
not.

We seem to spend a lot of time assigning huge importance to
sockpuppets when we really can't do anything about it if the user is
really trying... we shouldn't bother..

Oh I know, we'll have a wikisockpuppet test:
We will send ninjas to go kill the suspected puppeteer, and if the
socks never edit again we'll know we were right!


body:
On 6/15/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps we should alert Human Rights
> Watch or Amnesty International.

This sort of disrespectful language reflects poorly on the project.
It's not acceptable to bait people with such jabs just so you can yell
'look see' when the victim meets your incivility with more incivility.

If you really think the user in question is a troll and therefor not
deserving of a basic level of respect then you need to take the only
action that has ever been effective in stopping trolls: Ignore them.


from_name: Nicolas Weeger

subject: [Wikitech-l] Trophees du libre prizes

body:
(resurrecting the thread after some days)

 >>* an hosting offer "pack premium", description at
 >>http://nexenservices.com/product_info.php?set_lang=en&cPath=2&products_id=17
 >>.Once again, i guess you decide whether to accept it or not, what to
 >>do with it. I think the offer is for one year (but i can contact
 >>someone to make sure, or have more details)
 >>* 4 subscriptions to DirectionPHP (
 >>http://www.directionphp.biz/a_la_une.php ).
 >
 >
 > What's the current status of those two? Have they been accepted? And
 > what are they about exactly? (see my previous request about
 > translation).

AFAIK, nothing was decided for those 2 prizes.

The hosting offer, I don't know more than what is written on the page
(but again i can contact the company to have details). I'm pretty sure
you can host MediaWiki on it, though :)

DirectionPHP is a magazine on PHP, in french.

Nicolas Weeger


from_name: SPUI

body:
slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:
> On 6/15/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Have you seen the Talk page? I have as many entries in the discussion as any
>>other editor, and public opinion was in favor of my position: 18 to 10 to 2
>>to 1.
>>
>
> But you'll notice no other editor has asked for the page to be unprotected.

I'll ask then. Please unprotect the page so I can restore the picture.


body:
On 15/06/05, BJ?rn Lindqvist <bjourne at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't think I have *ever* witnessed an admin protect a page to
> revistion that person did not favour. So it can't be *totally* random.

The only custom is to always protect the wrong version
(<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Version>), although the
protection policy
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protection_policy>) also
allows the version not favored by those violating the 3RR to be
protected.

Angela


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiProjects overriding global guidelines?

body:
I agree, it is subthread, one that I didn't think would go on this
long, and again, I'm not seriously pushing for this. It was meant to
be simply an extension of the idea of labeling episodes and other
entries which were nothing more than descriptions of fictional events
(i.e. plot re-caps). But again, I'm not really trying to push it as
any global policy. I apologize for taking up space with this.

FF

P.S. I apologize for taking up space with this apology as well!
P.S.S. I apologize for that last apology too!
.... and so on! ;-)

On 6/14/05, Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:
> I disagree, but this whole subthread is a digression from the main
> point. You're suggesting that Wikipedia have a global guideline or
> policy of putting a parenthetical comment in the titles of articles
> about fictional things (In addition to Timwi's objection, the presence
> of a parenthetical phrase in a title would then have two completely
> different possible meanings which is IMO a bad idea) but the original
> subject was Wikiprojects that decide to disregard global Wikipedia
> policies in favor of their own "local" ones. If this suggestion were to
> be adopted as policy, what would we do about WikiProject Wormhole
> X-treme when it decides that _their_ policy is never to use parentheses
> in the titles of articles relating to that show?
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Guaka

body:
> Not sure exactly where this mail comes from (/me perplex)... but
> text-only encyclopedia, though safer, is a bit restricted :-(

For text-only: check out wik2dict and dict. dict is a client/server
hypertext protocol. wik2dict converts Mediawiki SQL dumps into the
(gzipped) dict format. Usually the result takes up less space than the
*table.sql.gz that is downloaded.

I'm currently working on a http gateway to dict that is more friendly
than the thing that's running at dict.org. I'll probably install it at a
Geekcorps server, together with the Bambara and French Wikipedia-dicts.
I think it would be cool if a Wikimedia server can be used to server
dict stuff. It's really less resource intensive, and would be a nice
backup for when the real servers are too slow. It also queries all
different dicts at once (i.e. Wikipedias, Wiktionaries, Wikibooks in
many languages). I'll post the link to htdict once it's finished :)

> I actually would prefer we set up a system with taggued pages than to
> strip all images :-( but well... it takes less room

I've actually been thinking about doing something like Tomeraider does.
Maybe there is more interest in this. I think it's ugly that people are
kind of forced to use a proprietary format to have Wikipedia on their
PDAs.


body:
This has nothing to do with one's political or even moral philosophy.
I don't think the image has any educational value, and I also believe
it was chosen just for its shock value.

The entire issue has been arranged as a false dilemma. "Which do we
have, no illustrations or one which is intentionally disgusting?" The
more sober answer, keeping in mind the goal of the encyclopedia and
cooling our jets about turning everything into a battle against
"prudes", is that we should look for more images if those are only
options.

I'm happy to try and put together a diagram illustrating the different
processes of human digestion that food matter goes through when being
turned into feces. I think it would be infinitely better. Heck, I'd
even try to make it up to Featured Image quality. Then maybe there
wouldn't be any real question about whether linking to (rather than
inlining) a picture of something that every human on the planet has
probably seen on a fairly "regular" basis, yet most find repellant
when presented to them in another context, is hampering any
educational goals.

The goals of the encyclopedia should be first on our agenda. They are
enough of a dramatic statement in and of themself without having to
declare ourselves so far above all models of prudery. Edit wars over
what I think most people would agree count as a "shocking" image
(whether or not you think it should be displayed anyway or not) are
not a good use of our time.

If someone knows a good reference off-hand (is there a physiologist in
the house?) for the diagram in question, please feel free to send me
an e-mail or leave it on my talk page. Thanks.

FF

On 6/15/05, BJ?rn Lindqvist <bjourne at gmail.com> wrote:
> > not to educate. We wouldn't tolerate intentionally offensive prose,
> > and we should not tolerate intentionally offensive images.
>
> Only in the last 20th century there has happened hundreds of massacres
> that a textual description of would make anyone sick to their stomach.
> Should we not tolerate someone writing or reciting this?
>
> Loose the word "intentionally" because noone can accurately guess
> someon else intent. Loose the word "offensive" because not everyone
> takes offense. What you are left with is a picture of shit in an
> article about shit.
>
> You have heard it lots that Wikipedia is not a "vehicle of free
> speech". But Wikipedia is not a vehicle for the morale conservatists
> to present their opinion as the truth.
>
> --
> mvh Bj?rn
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: geni

body:
> It looks like we've forgotten the difference between good faith but
> crap and actual vandalism.  It might well by that the editor in
> question has poor taste and judgement, and she might well be a
> weirdo... But that isn't vandalism.

They were not instantly banned so it appears we do know the difference.

--
geni


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Besides Wikinews radio, there's another exciting development on the
> English Wikinews: the Rwanda newshut.

Now there's a compound word sorely in need of a space. Am I the only one
who read it as "new shut"?

Oh, and great project.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Theresa Knott

body:
> > until now, found your arguments for unprotecting to be compelling; perhaps
> > they feel that doing so would simply re-start a revert war, which is what
> > page protection is intended to forestall in the first place.
>
> Eh, more like worried about an admin protect war, ... even less desirable.

I very much doubt that.  Certainly the reason that I  didn't unprotect
the page is because I can see that jane is trolling.  I don't for one
minute think that If I were to unprotect the page SlimVirgin would
reprotect it again.

Theresa


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Question about page moves

body:
Edward Z. Yang wrote:
> Penguin is an article
> Phoenix is an article
> Ice Bird is a history-less redirect to Penguin
> Fire Bird is a history-less redirect to Phoenix
>
> You can move Penguin to Ice Bird but not to Fire Bird. Phoenix is our
> "Article C"

I used to be completely paranoid about vandals using page moves to
shuffle article titles, by repeatedly swapping titles via a temporary
page. That is, until I realised this attack was already protected
against, using the feature you describe above.

And in a previous message:
> I'm telling you, one of these days a vandal is going to realize that
> Page moves require little work to be done but can cause massive damage
> that requires lots of work to fix, and then create multiple puppet
> accounts and capitilize on this behavior.

This has already happened several times, we've seen this scenario played
out to the fullest extent. We've implemented a few features to deal with
it, such as "undo" links in RC and checks for "newbies" attempting to
move pages. Allowing users to move over arbitrary redirects would open
us up to truly irreversible attacks, rather than just attacks reversible
only by admins.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Phil Boswell

body:
"Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
wrote in message news:BAY102-F1714989F3AAB040B221FDB9F50 at phx.gbl...
[snip]
> SlimVirgin is not using page protection to forestall a revert war. She is
> using it to prevent me from editing. She is on record as saying she will
> lift the block if anyone asks her to, with one exception. Me.

Exactly so. You say you have huge support for unprotecting the page and
restoring your image.

SV's position is: find one other person to request this and she will do so.
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [WikiEN-l] What does it take to be recognized as a troll?

body:
'Jane' is to my mind, without any shadow of a doubt, a
simple troll.

The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them -
they are only seeking a reaction; when they do not get
one, they get bored, and go away.

So that's what I suggest people do - add Jane's
address to your spam filter, and move on.

If you don't think Jane's a troll, well, fair enough,
but I'm suprised. I really could not care less about
this issue, so will be blissfully unaware of what
happens further, as I've set Yahoo to trash any mails
to do with it on arrival :-).

Dan

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


from_name: Philippe Roth

subject: [Wikitech-l] Search configuration

body:
Dear All,

We just made a fresh install of our wiki base 1.2.4 to mediawiki 1.4.5
Everything seems to be OK except that we have problems with search...
We have several articles about "plotters".
But if we make a search for "plotter", there is no article found. Same
with "plot*", nothing.
The articles are found only when we make a search for "plotters".

How can we configure our installation to make search like
"plot*","plotter" and so on successful?

Many thanks in advance for light.

Best regards,
Philippe Roth