body:
[[Template:Polemical userboxes]] may or may not be a candidate for T1
(I suspect that technicaly it is but the trouble caused by deleting it
would be kinda not good). However it was listed on TFD. Fair enough
considering some of the things that have turned up on AfD over the
years it isn't the most extream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_19&diff=prev&oldid=40237585

[[User:MarkSweep]] then deleted the nomination. A bit of a streach of
[[Wikipedia:Speedy keep]] but nothing particularly extream. Certianly
no more extream than applying T1 to [[Template:Polemical userboxes]]
(no don't worry I'm not going to).

[[User:MarkSweep]] then proceeds to block [[User:CFIF]] (the
nominator) for 48 hours.

[[User:CFIF]] has 2269 edits with 1604 in the article namespace

http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?user=CFIF&dbname=enwiki_p

He wasn't warned. We treat outright vandles better than that.

--
geni


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Userboxes: A radical proposal

body:
On 2/20/06, Drini drini <wpdrini at gmail.com> wrote:
> Exactly. There's no problem about writing "I like chocolate strawberry
> ice cream" on your userpage. It's the template namespace pollution
> that creating an userbox for that sole purpose that causes the
> problem.

I don't know what mediawiki's limit on the upper length for article
titles is but I know it is greater than 20 letters. Assuming we stick
to the latin alphabet an ignore spaces that gives us
19,928,148,895,209,400,000,000,000,000 posible templates. I don't
think we need to worry to much about polution.

--
geni


from_name: Drini drini

body:
Exactly. There's no problem about writing "I like chocolate strawberry
ice cream" on your userpage. It's the template namespace pollution
that creating an userbox for that sole purpose that causes the
problem. And if an user feels so strong about chocolate strawberry ice
cream, why limit himself to an 8-word userbox? write a paragraph in
your own words about why is it such a good ice cream flavor.

On 2/18/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
>
> I agree.  The more I think about this, the more I refine my view of what
> I think is "the problem" with these userboxes.  "The problem" is not
> people's self-expression, the problem is that by having these things in
> the Template namespace we are implicitly suggesting that these are
> endorsed by the Wikipedia community, and that plastering a bunch of
> advocacy stickers on your userpage is the right and normal way to be a
> good Wikipedian.
>
>
>


list: textbook-l

from_name: Robert Scott Horning

subject:
[Textbook-l] [Wikitech-l] The sad story of training material
 to	learn Farsi

body:
SJ wrote:

>I don't know where to put this partly-finished text...  Three related thoughts:
>1) One of the reasons given for speedily deleting Wikimania
>proceedings from wikibooks without discussion was that some of the
>content was not in English.  I do not think that having part of a book
>intended for English-speaking readers in a foreign language should be
>grounds for deletion.
>
>
You have totally misunderstood this statement.  The Wikimania content
was never intended to be used for foriegn language instruction.  It was
publication of research papers or original source material that had a
further strike against it as not even being written in English.
Wikibooks has a long history of foriegn langauge textbooks... indeed
some that have become book of the month.  Don't confuse this issue here,
and the Farsi Wikibook is quite welcome on Wikibooks for many of the
reasons that I outlined against the Wikimania content... because this
Wikibook is clearly a part of the overall Wikibooks content.

In addition, English Wikibooks was known as textbook.wikipedia.com
(btw... a redirect that currently doesn't exist and was linked from a
number of external websites)  At one point a fairly healthy non-English
speaking community was on Wikibooks.  A decision in the past was to
break up the various Wikibook projects into seperate langauge domains,
where the content written in the various languages would be moved out of
the now English Wikibooks and into the other various independent
projects in different langauges.  I was not a part of that decision, but
there is still quite a bit of content left over from those days, some of
it being deleted now after verification that the content has been moved
or improved in the language that it is written in.

Nowhere is there an attempt to remove this content (a textbook about
learning Farsi), which is as well done as most of current foreign
langauge textbooks.

A valid complaint, however, is to argue about the role of MediaWiki
software in dealing with right to left and left to right writing systems
simultaneously, which is a technical issue that content of this nature
will have to deal with.  When I've had to include quotations in Arabic
or Hebrew (related writing systems to Farsi) I have had some problems in
trying to perform cut and paste operations, and in general rearranging
content within the edit windows of MediaWiki implementations... or even
any wiki at all.  Often letters will drop out and other problems as
well.  This doesn't seem to be as much of a problem when all of the
content is using one writing system, as (obviously) the Arabic and
Hebrew Wikimedia projects seem to be doing just fine... with even
growing development communities.  Even the Farsi projects seem to be
enjoying at least some moderate success.  I would imagine that inclusion
of Latin characters in Farsi-language projects is a bit easier to do and
not fraught with as many problem, but I don't have as much experience in
that environment.

--
Robert Scott Horning


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] about Chinese Wikipedia

body:
The quote is "The closure of Wikipedia may allow some people who
harbor evil intentions to use its influence to disseminate rumors," I
believe it refers to the opportunity that is handed those who oppose
the government to exploit the blocking of Wikipedia for propaganda
purposes.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 12:44 AM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> I noticed specifically that these letters use the words "evil intent".
> Does this refer to counterrevolutionary ideas and feelings, or
> something else?
>
> Mark
>
> On 19/02/06, shi zhao <shizhao at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> February 20, Washington Post about Chinese Wikipedia Series:
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/
>> AR2006021901335.html
>>
>> And unblok for zh wp letter appealing:
>>
>>
>> *
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/
>> AR2006021900851.html
>>
>> *
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/
>> AR2006021800672.html
>>
>> --[[zh:user:shizhao]]
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
I'm starting to skip your stuff too. You need to become familiar with
Wikipedia and adopt an attitude of cooperative problem solving to
participate effectively.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 1:56 AM, charles matthews wrote:

> "STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA" wrote
>
>
>
>> If you have something to say to me, just do so. Don't
>> try to provoke me with these pitty insults.
>>
>
> Fine.. You're clueless about Wikipedia and I won't be reading any
> more of
> your mails.
>
> Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Still, no value being added for having an 8 word template over a frivolous
irrelevant topic. If people want to express themselves, they can do so by
WRITING their opinions on their userpages, and that will even let do so on
their own words not being restricted to 8 words.

It's not like they're being censored. They can still talk about icecream
flavors on their userpages. (After all, isn't WRITING what we are all here
fore?). The problem is the unnecesary waste of resources by having the
template.


body:
Still, no value being added for having an 8 word template over a frivolous
irrelevant topic. If people want to express themselves, they can do so by
WRITING their opinions on their userpages, and that will even let do so on
their own words not being restricted to 8 words.

It's not like they're being censored. They can still talk about icecream
flavors on their userpages. (After all, isn't WRITING what we are all here
fore?). The problem is the unnecesary waste of resources by having the
template.

On 2/20/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/20/06, Drini drini <wpdrini at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Exactly. There's no problem about writing "I like chocolate strawberry
> > ice cream" on your userpage. It's the template namespace pollution
> > that creating an userbox for that sole purpose that causes the
> > problem.
>
> I don't know what mediawiki's limit on the upper length for article
> titles is but I know it is greater than 20 letters. Assuming we stick
> to the latin alphabet an ignore spaces that gives us
> 19,928,148,895,209,400,000,000,000,000 posible templates. I don't
> think we need to worry to much about polution.
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] This is an interesting one or even more userbox stuff

body:
There seems to be a lot of  out-of-control behavior amongst
administrators deleting userboxes.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Userboxes: A rational proposal

body:
The question I have is how can we establish a workable procedure to
delete destructive user boxes, one that doesn't generate a lot of
conflict and wheelwarring. AND make it vary clear that  userboxes
which just express opinions are perfectly acceptable and not subject
to campaigns of suppression. I don't intend to spend one second
watching and voting on Templates for deletion, but I like to not have
to worry about things going wrong there.

Fred

On Feb 19, 2006, at 9:56 AM, The Cunctator wrote:

> On 2/17/06, Philip Welch <wikipedia at philwelch.net> wrote:
>
>> Stop worrying about userboxes and write an encyclopedia already. If
>> and when userboxes interfere with encyclopedia-writing activities,
>> react in an appropriately minimalist fashion and proceed with the
>> encyclopedia-writing.
>>
>> Quite frankly, the userbox fans are *not* the people disrupting
>> Wikipedia with an unhealthy fixation with userboxes. This isn't to
>> say that they don't *have* an unhealthy userbox fixation, but rather,
>> that they engage in that fixation in a way that doesn't really
>> prevent the rest of us from writing an encyclopedia.
>>
>> The people disrupting Wikipedia?that would be us, writing dozens of
>> messages to this listserv about them. Aren't we the people who
>> actually care about writing an encyclopedia? Then why don't we do
>> that, instead of wasting our time compiling statistics about
>> userboxes, trying to delete them, and debating the right way to do
>> that?
>>
>
> The people disrupting Wikipedia, maybe, are the people writing
> messages to the listserv about people writing messages to the listserv
> about userboxes.
>
> Discussing and formulating Wikipedia policy is as important a
> contribution as is editing an individual article.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
I was just expressing my position. Opinions are like assholes.
Everyone's got one. Showing it may be another matter.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 6:20 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 2/20/06, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>
>> The question I have is how can we establish a workable procedure to
>> delete destructive user boxes, one that doesn't generate a lot of
>> conflict and wheelwarring. AND make it vary clear that  userboxes
>> which just express opinions are perfectly acceptable and not subject
>> to campaigns of suppression. I don't intend to spend one second
>> watching and voting on Templates for deletion, but I like to not have
>> to worry about things going wrong there.
>>
>
> I don't think we have consensus that "userboxes which just express
> opnions are perfectly acceptable". We do have consensus that opinions
> can be expressed on user pages, but not necessarily via userboxes in
> the template namespace. It may be too early to judge though.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unused userboxes

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:

>On 2/19/06, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
>
>>We're not like a provincial university where the local legislature
>>has decreed that that everyone has to be accepted in regardless of
>>ability. Given that we now have a surfeit of volunteers, perhaps we
>>should be thinking about ways to gently raise the bar, rewarding
>>the good editors while inducing the poor ones to find another wiki
>>more in line with their talents.
>>
>
>We have a surfeit of volunteers? Maybe badly utilised volunteers, but
>I see evidence of a lot of work to be done and not enough people to do
>it.
>
If you look at RC, new articles, etc, you'll see thousands of editors
working away. A great many of them are just rambling on about their
boring high schools and deservedly-obscure garage bands (or adding
userboxes), and there are quite a few who never go on to do anything
more substantive. So we have plenty of participants, just not enough
of the kind that add much value to the project.

To some extent it's unavoidable - there will always be more high
school students than experts in quantum mechanics - but it's not
clear to me that large numbers of the very average is an adequate
substitute for smaller numbers of the scholarly-minded. To abuse
an analogy, the bazaar only works when people actually bring
goods and money.

Stan


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unused userboxes

body:
It's not because they're not bold, but deciding on culling and eventually
rewriting is time-consuming and not something everyone has time for. At
least with one word edits, the article shows up in recent changes.

Mgm

On 2/20/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/19/06, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> > We're not like a provincial university where the local legislature
> > has decreed that that everyone has to be accepted in regardless of
> > ability. Given that we now have a surfeit of volunteers, perhaps we
> > should be thinking about ways to gently raise the bar, rewarding
> > the good editors while inducing the poor ones to find another wiki
> > more in line with their talents.
>
> We have a surfeit of volunteers? Maybe badly utilised volunteers, but
> I see evidence of a lot of work to be done and not enough people to do
> it.
>
> Gripe for today: people who make one-word edits to badly written
> articles. How do we get people to be very bold on budding articles,
> without using "be bold" as an excuse to rewrite established articles
> from scratch without consultation?
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Did you tell Mark that?

On 2/20/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [[Template:Polemical userboxes]] may or may not be a candidate for T1
> (I suspect that technicaly it is but the trouble caused by deleting it
> would be kinda not good). However it was listed on TFD. Fair enough
> considering some of the things that have turned up on AfD over the
> years it isn't the most extream.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_19&diff=prev&oldid=40237585
>
> [[User:MarkSweep]] then deleted the nomination. A bit of a streach of
> [[Wikipedia:Speedy keep]] but nothing particularly extream. Certianly
> no more extream than applying T1 to [[Template:Polemical userboxes]]
> (no don't worry I'm not going to).
>
> [[User:MarkSweep]] then proceeds to block [[User:CFIF]] (the
> nominator) for 48 hours.
>
> [[User:CFIF]] has 2269 edits with 1604 in the article namespace
>
>
> http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?user=CFIF&dbname=enwiki_p
>
>
> He wasn't warned. We treat outright vandles better than that.
>
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On 2/20/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> Did you tell Mark that?

No most of my efforts were going into resiting the temptation to block
him outright.
--
geni


from_name: STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
If you want to 'skip' someone, just do it. There's no
need to hold an announcement about it, just to try to
embarrass them. In fact, I find it a bit childish. I'm
not clueless about Wiki. I said that Jimbo should
first decide on what he wants, then put it into
action. Look at the mess he created. This conflict is
old and is still going.

Kelly blocked a guy for disruption; and the disruption
was when the guy said he would keep his userboxes
because he didn't find the term "inflammatory", used
by Jimbo, explicative enough. I checked his userpage
and I found nothing in disorder. Neither his message,
nor his userpage, violated anything, yet he was
blocked. Maybe you veterans could explain that to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kelly_Martin#.E2.80.9CInflammatory.E2.80.9D

--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> I'm starting to skip your stuff too. You need to
> become familiar with
> Wikipedia and adopt an attitude of cooperative
> problem solving to
> participate effectively.
>
> Fred
>
> On Feb 20, 2006, at 1:56 AM, charles matthews wrote:
>
> > "STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA" wrote
> >
> >
> >
> >> If you have something to say to me, just do so.
> Don't
> >> try to provoke me with these pitty insults.
> >>
> >
> > Fine.. You're clueless about Wikipedia and I won't
> be reading any
> > more of
> > your mails.
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


body:
On 2/20/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't we treat vandals better than that?
>
> Steve

Yes. But then I didn't do it.

--
geni


from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
Don't we treat vandals better than that?

Steve

On 2/20/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/20/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Did you tell Mark that?
>
> No most of my efforts were going into resiting the temptation to block
> him outright.
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On 2/20/06, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
> Only anecdotally, and personal experience/feeling.  However, having
> lived on Usenet before Things Changed, I get a "I've seen this before"
> sense.
>
> Not saying the result has to be the same, of course, but I think
> things are changing here.

*nod* It's a pity we don't have any useful user statistics. The figure
of 600,000 or so is meaningless as it includes every user account
every created. Do we have any figures on how many unique users edited
Wikipedia on any given week?

Steve


from_name: charles matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
"STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA" wrote

> If you have something to say to me, just do so. Don't
> try to provoke me with these pitty insults.

Fine.. You're clueless about Wikipedia and I won't be reading any more of
your mails.

Charles


from_name: Phil Boswell

body:
"John Lee" <johnleemk at gawab.com> wrote in
message news:43F818B1.10600 at gawab.com...
> Is it me, or does geni appear to disagree with nearly everything ever
> proposed on the mailing list? Maybe he just likes playing devil's
> advocate, but whenever I see something by geni, I immediately know it'll
> disagree with someone somewhere. :)

Actually my main problem with posts by "geni" is that they seem to have this
strange aversion to spell-checking, and grammar seems to be optional.

I actually find it difficult to read these messages because of the strangely
spelt words, sometimes to the extent that the message states the
**opposite** of what is meant (which is only discernable after some careful
thought).

Whether "geni" can spell or not I have no clue, but there is no sign of such
ability on the mailing list. Whether or not "geni" can operate a
spell-checker or not, I similarly have no clue: there is no sign of such
ability here on the mailing list.

After a bit I reach the point where I don't even bother trying to make out
what "geni" wants to say: I simply click on to the next message.

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


list: foundation-l

from_name: GerardM

subject: [Foundation-l] The sad story of training material to learn Farsi

body: Hoi,


list: wikimedia-l

body: Hoi,


from_name: Angela

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
On 2/20/06, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anybody know how to killfile a thread in gmail?

You can use gmail filters to do this, though you can only have 20 of them:
https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6579&query=filter&topic=0&type=f

Angela.


from_name: Ben Emmel

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
On 2/20/06, Death Phoenix <originaldeathphoenix at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> While I don't agree with everything you're saying or the way you're saying
> it, you make one interesting point: if Jimbo just came right out now and
> said "You are only allowed to have this sort of userbox, and you are only
> allowed to have x amount of them", this userbox fiasco would come to an
> end:
> admins can go around deleting them and all the userbox defenders would
> have
> nothing (concrete) to say about it. Conversely, if Jimbo said "all
> userboxes
> are fine", the userbox defenders are free to keep their userboxes, the
> admins will know not to delete anything, and we'll all be fine.
>
> I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't know what
> the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
> userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning to
> point
> to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about this
> whole
> mess.
>
> I think Jimbo came pretty close to expressing his wishes with the Template
> CSD, but there will likely come a time when we need him to make a stronger
> and more official statement on Wikipedia.
>

I think that this is becoming the only viable solution. However, the
userboxen supporters are also the loudest in shouting "Cabal, Cabal!!", and
hearkening for the ruin of Jimbo. Just today did I see a userbox comparing
him to something out of 1984. In short, they deny everything that Jimbo does
for the good of Wikipedia.

These users greatly lose fact of basic Wikipedia principles: that we are
here to build an encyclopedia, that you don't have a right to edit, and
don't have an automatic right to "free speech". Truly, we have a sort of
Wiki-"generation gap." I don't see an end to these issues any time soon.

--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake


from_name: Death Phoenix

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
While I don't agree with everything you're saying or the way you're saying
it, you make one interesting point: if Jimbo just came right out now and
said "You are only allowed to have this sort of userbox, and you are only
allowed to have x amount of them", this userbox fiasco would come to an end:
admins can go around deleting them and all the userbox defenders would have
nothing (concrete) to say about it. Conversely, if Jimbo said "all userboxes
are fine", the userbox defenders are free to keep their userboxes, the
admins will know not to delete anything, and we'll all be fine.

I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't know what
the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning to point
to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about this whole
mess.

I think Jimbo came pretty close to expressing his wishes with the Template
CSD, but there will likely come a time when we need him to make a stronger
and more official statement on Wikipedia.

On 2/20/06, STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA <wizzard_bane at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> If you want to 'skip' someone, just do it. There's no
> need to hold an announcement about it, just to try to
> embarrass them. In fact, I find it a bit childish. I'm
> not clueless about Wiki. I said that Jimbo should
> first decide on what he wants, then put it into
> action. Look at the mess he created. This conflict is
> old and is still going.
>
> Kelly blocked a guy for disruption; and the disruption
> was when the guy said he would keep his userboxes
> because he didn't find the term "inflammatory", used
> by Jimbo, explicative enough. I checked his userpage
> and I found nothing in disorder. Neither his message,
> nor his userpage, violated anything, yet he was
> blocked. Maybe you veterans could explain that to me.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kelly_Martin#.E2.80.9CInflammatory.E2.80.9D
>
> --- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm starting to skip your stuff too. You need to
> > become familiar with
> > Wikipedia and adopt an attitude of cooperative
> > problem solving to
> > participate effectively.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > On Feb 20, 2006, at 1:56 AM, charles matthews wrote:
> >
> > > "STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA" wrote
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> If you have something to say to me, just do so.
> > Don't
> > >> try to provoke me with these pitty insults.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Fine.. You're clueless about Wikipedia and I won't
> > be reading any
> > > more of
> > > your mails.
> > >
> > > Charles
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > >
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
"Angela" <beesley at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8b722b800602191453l64d66851s2eb57d38aaddacff at mail.gmail.com...
> On 2/20/06, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Does anybody know how to killfile a thread in gmail?
>
> You can use gmail filters to do this, though you can only have 20 of them:
> https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6579&query=filter&topic=0&type=f

They've silently upped the limit (again :-) because I just counted mine and
I have over 30.

Does anybody need a gmail account? I have 100 invites sitting waiting :-)

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


body:
"Steve Bennett" <stevage at gmail.com> wrote in
message news:f1c3529e0602190636y2aa9b0d9wf50693e807a542f1 at mail.gmail.com...
[snip]
> What if the userbox was "People who believe in abortion are scum"?

I suspect I might take the uncharacteristically-bold step of speedily
deleting it on the grounds of disruption and attack.

Was there a particular instance you wanted to draw my attention to? I can
let you know when I'm feeling exceptionally crabby if you want  me to make
it spektackerler :-)
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] (no subject)

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> I've got no idea what I need to unblock for this to work :-( Try again
> until you get a different IP address?
>
> I've cc'ed this to the technical list for their consideration. This
> user is on AOL and is blocked from creating an account, but  we don't
> have enough information for me to work out which autoblock is causing
> the problem and undo it.

That's the rate limiter, not the autoblocker.

Wait a day and try again.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
On 2/20/06, charles matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> "Death Phoenix"  wrote
>
> > ... there will likely come a time when we need him to make a stronger
> > and more official statement on Wikipedia.
>
> These discussions and evolutions are lengthy, for good reasons.  We
> operate
> by consensus, not by unanimity, for one thing.
>
> For another thing, the 'community' aspects of WP are the face we show
> ourselves.  The face turned towards the outside world -  basically the
> servers, software development and legal aspects - can throw up problems
> that
> are much more pressing.
>
> The only reason I can see that the boxen are possibly a 'defining issue',
> in
> some people's minds, is that there is always likely to be a defining
> issue.
> The way this has come up seems to me to be largely 'contingent'.  I'd be
> surprised if Jimbo thought otherwise, that this was somehow a growing pain
> that it was necessary for us to experience.  It does feel as if after five
> years the learning curve of how we live together suddenly has become that
> much steeper.  But it is nothing that the external critics have ever
> raised.
> Due caution in coming to judgement on it seems entirely understandable.
>

Of  course we operate by consensus. I'd have it no other way. However, even
assuming that we reach consensus after months of discussion, it will likely
take no less than a direct statement from Jimbo to stop any further feudin'
and fussin'. There will always be people on the extreme ends of the userbox
arguments, and those folks are very unlikely to change their minds
regardless of any consensus. How they act (and how we respond) depends on
how much "muscle" is behind any userbox decrees. I'd argue that there is
nothing more "muscular" than a decree by Jimbo.

Uh-oh. We're going to see a photoshopped picture of Jimbo on Arnold's body
in [[User:Jimbo Wales/Funny pictures]], aren't we?


subject:
[WikiEN-l] FYI,
	from WaPo -- Chinese WP: Reference Tool On Web Finds Fans, Censors

body:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/AR2006021901335.html

k


body:
Ok, can we all calm down now? Thanks.

Steve

On 2/20/06, Philip Welch <wikipedia at philwelch.net> wrote:
> My main problem with posts by "Phil Boswell" is that they contain
> gratuitous unsolicited commentary on other people. No one cares what
> you think about anyone, so just Sierra Tango Whiskey Foxtrot. Thanks.


from_name: Kirill Lokshin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
On 2/20/06, John Lee <johnleemk at gawab.com> wrote:
> Ben Emmel wrote:
>
> >I think that this is becoming the only viable solution. However, the
> >userboxen supporters are also the loudest in shouting "Cabal, Cabal!!", and
> >hearkening for the ruin of Jimbo. Just today did I see a userbox comparing
> >him to something out of 1984. In short, they deny everything that Jimbo does
> >for the good of Wikipedia.
> >
> >These users greatly lose fact of basic Wikipedia principles: that we are
> >here to build an encyclopedia, that you don't have a right to edit, and
> >don't have an automatic right to "free speech". Truly, we have a sort of
> >Wiki-"generation gap." I don't see an end to these issues any time soon.
> >
> >
> Certainly not when we have former admins proposing the oustre of Jimbo
> ([[User:Karmafist/manifesto]]) and his replacement with an "elected
> executive" whose powers would be limited to managing the servers and
> basically all the crap Jimbo does now, minus any involvement with
> Wikipedia. The newbie disconnect is growing, and people who should know
> better are exacerbating it.

There seems to have been a rash of those in the past few days -
[[User:The Ungovernable Force/manifesto]] is even more extreme -
combined with a number of "Userbox Insurgency"-type userboxes.  The
issue seems to have become less a question of the userboxes themselves
and more one of "sticking it to The Man" (in this case, Jimbo).

Kirill Lokshin


from_name: Steve Summit

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:
> The question I have is how can we establish a workable procedure to
> delete destructive user boxes, one that doesn't generate a lot of
> conflict and wheelwarring. AND make it vary clear that  userboxes
> which just express opinions are perfectly acceptable...
> ...I like to not have to worry about things going wrong there.

Even before establishing that workable procedure, I think there
needs to be more consideration of whether we truly want such a
procedure.  Jimbo's informal wish that people voluntarily remove
divisive and polemic userboxes doesn't seem to have done much to
defuse the current situation, but the initial few rounds of
deletions certainly haven't, either.

At the very least, we need a clearer consensus on what a truly
"destructive" user box is, so that we don't have people speedily
deleting, say, the UDUIW one.


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
Philip Welch wrote:
> I think his argument, (and if it isn't, it's possibly a stronger
> argument), is that it's not up to certain un-named admins to delete
> userboxes on Jimbo's behalf, based only on their interpretation of
> Jimbo's statements on the issue, because if Jimbo really wanted
> userboxes to go he'd say so.

I want people to ask slowly and thoughtfully with deep respect for
others, even others with whom they disagree.  As far as I can tell,
there is a strong consensus that having various sorts of advocacy
userboxes is problematic, especially when they are promoted in the
Wikipedia namespace as if they are a normal and proper part of Wikipedia
culture.  The question is: how do we transition to a better state of
affairs while respecting people's legitimate concerns about
individuality and so on?

I think it is somewhat problematic to have users pasting bits of cruft
on their userpage which make them seem to be engaged in Wikipedia as
activists for a particular POV.  I think users should realize that
having that sort of cruft on their userpage will quite rightly diminish
other people's respect for you and your work.  But, whatever, if people
want to do it, I see no reason to get absolutely draconian about it.

However.

The current situation with these things being in the main Template
namespace, and promoted as if healthy and normal in the Wikipedia
namespace, is that they are damaging to our culture.  They are
attracting the wrong sort of people, and giving newcomers the wrong idea
of what it means to be a Wikipedian.

That's why they need to go.  Not to censor people's self-expression, but
to make it clear that _as a whole_ the community considers these things
to be divisive and inappropriate.

--
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:
> Either that, or listen to the voice of
> the community. If he does that, he would probably have
> to keep the userboxes.

I think if I listen to the voice of the community, I do exactly what I
am doing.  The community overwhelmingly agrees that these things are a
problem, and there is not yet clear consensus on what to do about it.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:
> That's the main argument. The other argument is that
> Jimbo is using proxies to do his work, which would
> otherwise make him a target of criticism. Not that he
> isn't a target already, but it seems he wants to
> redirect the criticism onto others.

You have a very very very strange view of the world, my friend.

--Jimbo

--
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikidiff2

body:
"Tim Starling"
<t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote in
message news:dtbtss$tkf$1 at sea.gmane.org...
> An enhanced version of the C++ diff extension, wikidiff2, is now running
> on both clusters. It now
> does character-level diffs on Chinese, Japanese and Thai, so it produces
> much better results than
> the PHP diff algorithm, in a much shorter time to boot. Chinese had an
> ad-hoc segmentation scheme
> based on inserting a space between every character before the diff, then
> removing the spaces
> afterwards, but unfortunately that left spaces all over the place where
> there shouldn't have been
> spaces. Anyway, it's fixed now.

Any chances of improving the behaviour when several successive paragraphs
are split apart?

e.g. assuming that A, B, C, D, etc are words, when:
----
ABCDEF

GHIJKLM
----
becomes
----
A'
B'
C'
D'
E'
F'

G'
H'
I'
J'
K'
L'
----

At present the component parts of the second paragraph do not line up with
that paragraph, so it is difficult to compare the versions:
--Old edit--         --New edit--
ABCDEF               A'
                     B'
GHIJKLM               C'
                     D'
                     E'
                     F'

                     G'
                     H'
                     I'
                     J'
                     K'
                     L'
------               ------
As you cxan see, by the time the fragments G', H', I', J', K', L' appear,
the original might have scrolled off the top. If the alterations were subtle
it might be difficult to check them adequately.

Would it be possible to represent this in this fashion?
--Old edit--         --New edit--
ABCDEF               A'
                     B'
                     C'
                     D'
                     E'
                     F'

GHIJKLM               G'
                     H'
                     I'
                     J'
                     K'
                     L'
------               ------

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Mark Wagner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Improvements to diffs

body:
On 2/19/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Steve. That of course works, though only when
> I log in. Since my password is a 147 byte Chinese
> character idiom, I often read up on things without
> actually logging in.

I don't know what web browser you're using, but most browsers let the
user provide a custom stylesheet to be used on every web page they
view.  You could add the code there so it shows up even if you aren't
logged in.

> In that context I made the observance that red text on
> white was a bit displeasing to my eye, and I thought
> perhaps that others and their eyes might agree.

I don't know if it varies between Wikipedia skins, but I use Classic,
and it shows differences as red text on green or yellow.  This makes
it hard to see minor changes like adding or removing a comma.  I've
set up my stylesheet to show the exact changes as red on white, while
the paragraph containing the change is black text on green or black on
yellow.  Hard on the eyes, but it's instantly obvious what changed.

--
Mark
[[User:Carnildo]]


from_name: Jesse W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
I suspect this may be a good time to mention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pathoschild/Projects/Userboxes/Policy
again.

AFIK, this proposal seems to offer sensible concessions to both
"sides", and to be feasible, and, so far, has gathered considerable
support.  I'd urge everyone to look it over, add add your comments.

Jesse Weinstein


subject: [Wikitech-l] Template magick?

body:
"The Cunctator" <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote in
message news:dfd0b40602190906n4d888a34qdb48560dc5701b31 at mail.gmail.com...
> Is there some way to write a working template that does what I'd like
> it to do with this (nonworking) code?
>
> As of
> [{{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>FULLPAGENAME|oldid={{REVISIONID}}}}
> this edit], this article uses content from {{{source}}}.
>
> This is from [[Template:GFDLSource]]
>
> As you can see, I'm trying to automatically stamp the article with a
> link to the current revision.

I would have suggested
{{fullurl:{{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}|oldid={{subst:REVISIONID}}}} but as you can
see from the talk page, {{REVISIONID}} doesn't seem to be defined until
after the save, which means that it would not be avilable for SUBSTitution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:GFDLSource

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


subject: [WikiEN-l] CSD T1, and application to userspace templates

body:
John wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Userbox_debates#User:Cjmarsicano.2FUDUIW
>
> This template which I speedied under CSD T1 and pure common sense is
> now on DRV because some process wonks are pointing out...

Whoah.  As near as I can tell, all the UDUIW userbox said was,
"This user is a member of Users in Defense of Userboxes and
Individuality on Wikipedia."  So by suppressing it, we've made
not one but two leaps:

(1) That userboxes can be so dangerous that they need to be
    suppressed, as argued by the oft-repeated incident in
    which a "this user is Catholic" userbox allowed 40+ users
    to rally around the deletion poll for [[Wikipedia:Catholic
    Alliance of wikipedia]].

(2) That suppressing dangerous userboxes is so contentious yet
    so vital that those in support of userboxes need to be
    suppressed also.

I hope I'm not being melodramatic, but this is really starting to
sound like "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems
will slip through your fingers."

					Steve Summit [[User:Ummit]]
					scs at eskimo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
Death Phoenix wrote:
> Yes, but even with disagreement, such a decree would have the authority
> behind it. A great many people disagreed with Jimbo's actions in the
> pedophile userbox wheel war, but his actions still carried the weight of his
> ultimate authority of Wikipedia. Regardless of whether people agreed with
> his actions or sentiment, the matter was dealt with very quickly.

Who disagreed with my actions?  I know there was some quite justified
quibbling on minor points, but the *temporary* and yet *swift* action to
put a stop to what was a very bad situation, and to make it clear to
people that we should stop and discuss this whole thing rather than
having manic wheel wars about it, is as far as I know near universally
supported.

Some people say I act with too much power, some say I need to act with
more.  Old timers will tell you that this is normal.  I act slowly and
as little as possible, trying hard to push people on all sides to
recognize that among those of us who are here to build the greatest
encyclopedia in history and give it away for free, we can always find a
peaceful way to move forward in harmony.  Noisy harmony *g* but harmony.

--Jimbo

--
#######################################################################
#    Office: 1-727-231-0101       |  Free Culture and  Free Knowledge #
#    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a free world         #
#######################################################################


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
On 2/20/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/20/06, Death Phoenix <originaldeathphoenix at gmail.com> wrote:
> > While I don't agree with everything you're saying or the way you're
> saying
> > it, you make one interesting point: if Jimbo just came right out now and
> > said "You are only allowed to have this sort of userbox, and you are
> only
> > allowed to have x amount of them", this userbox fiasco would come to an
> end:
> > admins can go around deleting them and all the userbox defenders would
> have
> > nothing (concrete) to say about it. Conversely, if Jimbo said "all
> userboxes
> > are fine", the userbox defenders are free to keep their userboxes, the
> > admins will know not to delete anything, and we'll all be fine.
> >
> > I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't know
> what
> > the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
> > userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning to
> point
> > to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about this
> whole
> > mess.
>
> I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that this situation will get
> worse without a decree from above. And it's not as if there is some
> obvious consensus about what to do. Any strong decision handed down is
> likely to have a fair number of people in disagreement.

Yes, but even with disagreement, such a decree would have the authority
behind it. A great many people disagreed with Jimbo's actions in the
pedophile userbox wheel war, but his actions still carried the weight of his
ultimate authority of Wikipedia. Regardless of whether people agreed with
his actions or sentiment, the matter was dealt with very quickly.


from_name: Jakob Voss

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia for dummies

body:
(I'm follwing up to foundation-l because more people may be interested)

Jean-Baptiste Soufron wrote:

> By the way,
>
> what about a "wikipedia for the dummies" book ?

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3866400012
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/8/8b/WikiPress_1_Wikipedia.pdf
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pressemitteilungen/Wikipress_Band_1
http://www.wikipress.de/WikiPress:Wikipedia/Inhaltsverzeichnis

Sorry, it's in German only - you probably need specific books for each
language because of the specialities of Wikipedia's in each language.

Directmedia hired the editor (Henriette Fiebig) to collect and sort
Wikipedia project pages - in the end she had to rewrite most of it
because help pages in a Wiki are different from what you expect from a
book. I think that it's the best way to to pick one or two known
community members and let them write the book (on basis of existing
project and help pages of course) or you will end in endless discussion
and unfinished parts.

Greetings,
Jakob


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia for dummies


body:
On 2/20/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> I suspect I might take the uncharacteristically-bold step of speedily
> deleting it on the grounds of disruption and attack.
>
> Was there a particular instance you wanted to draw my attention to? I can
> let you know when I'm feeling exceptionally crabby if you want  me to make
> it spektackerler :-)

Nah, just theorising for the moment. But I'll keep you in mind should
I stumble upon one. :)

Steve


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] (no subject)

body:
I've got no idea what I need to unblock for this to work :-( Try again
until you get a different IP address?

I've cc'ed this to the technical list for their consideration. This
user is on AOL and is blocked from creating an account, but  we don't
have enough information for me to work out which autoblock is causing
the problem and undo it.

- d.

On 20/02/06, WARDCOLIN6 at aol.com <WARDCOLIN6 at aol.com> wrote:

> When I tried to create an account in order to logon, I was told that        I had already opened ten accounts and was blocked from creating any        more.


body:
"John Lee" <johnleemk at gawab.com> wrote in
message news:43F9B9D1.30907 at gawab.com...
[snip]
> Geni is dyslexic.

I can't recall whether the current social convention is that I should
express sympathy or not for that particular condition. If I should, please
take this as an expression of sympathy; if not, please bit-bucket it and
pretend I politely ignored it according to convention.

Whichever way around, according to the latest statistics "geni" is the most
prolific contributor to this mailing list, and is therefore probably
well-worth listening to.

It would surely be helpful if I could understand the opinions being
expressed.

I have no idea whether I have a problem with those opinions because I cannot
without a great deal of effort make out what they are.

In at least one message received today (having been posted over the weekend)
I am fairly sure that what was typed was actually the **opposite** of what
was intended; it was however impossible to decide so I moved on.

Whatever is the politest way of saying "please turn your spell-checker on so
I can understand what you're saying", please substitute that for this
sentence; please insert in addition any extra bits-and-pieces required to
make it completely clear that I am trying my best to AGF, and that it would
be nice if people were to do so in turn.
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Rune Welsh

subject: [WikiEN-l] I propose adding a community namespace

body:
Probably the sanest use of a community namespace would be for the migration
of all non encyclopedia-related categories like Babel, geolocation,
training, etc. a la [[Community:User en-N]] or somesuch. That way we would
avoid endless ramblings on what a "community" page is (not) allowed to have,
unclutter the encyclopedic category namespace and also be able to delete
community categories through standard CfD.


from_name: Justin Cormack

subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
On 20 Feb 2006, at 13:08, Steve Bennett wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/20/austria.irving.trial.ap/
> index.html?section=cnn_latest
>
> Looks like you don't need to go to the extent of causing death or
> injury.
>
> ObDisclaimer: I'm not sympathising or otherwise supporting Irving's
> views. But I'd be curious to know exactly what he's being charged
> with, and what the rules on free speech are in Austria...
>

Denying the holocaust is a crime in both Austria and Germany.

Most countries dont have a constitutional right to free speech.

Here in the UK we dont even have a written constitution.

Justinc


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
On 2/20/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/20/austria.irving.trial.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest
>
> Looks like you don't need to go to the extent of causing death or injury.
>
> ObDisclaimer: I'm not sympathising or otherwise supporting Irving's
> views. But I'd be curious to know exactly what he's being charged
> with, and what the rules on free speech are in Austria...
>
> Steve

A fair number of European countries picked up anti-Nazi laws just
after the war. Unfortunate but at the time understandable.

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
On 2/20/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hmm, understandable, but you wonder if 100 years from now, people
> won't think "I wonder whether it really happened or not. People never
> got the chance to find out, because the government made it a crime to
> ask the question."
>
> Anyway.
>
> Steve

It is not a crime to question the holocaust in the UK. Holocaust
denial is alive and well in the US and probably the UK.

--
geni


from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
Can't we skip the snide comments? Is it necessary?

Steve

On 2/20/06, John Lee <johnleemk at gawab.com> wrote:
> Shouldn't that be Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform? Or am I confusing this
> with another acronym?


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

body:
Ilya N. wrote:
> On 2/19/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> BTW, this is really ironic, because it is in fact my Yahoo! Account that
> gets 10 spam messages *a day*. But i suppose that's off-topic :P
>

Mine too. Gmail's spam filter is /way/ better.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
"geni" <geniice at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f80608430602200539r54a3d709q9c5364d8729acadd at mail.gmail.com...
> On 2/20/06, Steve Bennett
> <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hmm, understandable, but you wonder if 100 years from now, people
>> won't think "I wonder whether it really happened or not. People never
>> got the chance to find out, because the government made it a crime to
>> ask the question."
> It is not a crime to question the holocaust in the UK. Holocaust
> denial is alive and well in the US and probably the UK.

Hence why this repellent man is being prosecuted in Vienna, not London.

I wonder if he could be hammered for "glorification of terrorism"?

I suppose some nit-picker will say the Holocaust wasn't "terrorism"...
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


body:
Geoff Burling wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, John Lee wrote:
>
>
>>Is it me, or does geni appear to disagree with nearly everything ever
>>proposed on the mailing list? Maybe he just likes playing devil's
>>advocate, but whenever I see something by geni, I immediately know it'll
>>disagree with someone somewhere. :)
>>
>
> Consider this: do you expect any statement you post to the maillist will
> be agreed to by everyone reading? And is it more likely to assume that
> someone will respond to diasgree than to agree?
>
> I suspect that your question could be raised about a number of people on
> this list. (And probably even me.) But writing specifically about geni,
> I haven't noticed this tendency.
>

geni is the most prolific poster to this list and has been for several
months now; see http://tinyurl.com/qwn78 and scroll down to "Stats on
mailing list participation".

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/20/austria.irving.trial.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

Looks like you don't need to go to the extent of causing death or injury.

ObDisclaimer: I'm not sympathising or otherwise supporting Irving's
views. But I'd be curious to know exactly what he's being charged
with, and what the rules on free speech are in Austria...

Steve


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
I edited CSD T1 a week or so ago to cover transclusion in any space,
precisely because some T1 speedies had shown up again in userspace
(created in a good faith belief that otherwise objectionable templates
would be acceptable if in userspace).  It didn't last, Crotalus (who
had created the userspace templates) reverted and the clause hasn't
reappeared.


body:
On 2/20/06, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> The question I have is how can we establish a workable procedure to
> delete destructive user boxes, one that doesn't generate a lot of
> conflict and wheelwarring. AND make it vary clear that  userboxes
> which just express opinions are perfectly acceptable and not subject
> to campaigns of suppression. I don't intend to spend one second
> watching and voting on Templates for deletion, but I like to not have
> to worry about things going wrong there.

I don't think we have consensus that "userboxes which just express
opnions are perfectly acceptable". We do have consensus that opinions
can be expressed on user pages, but not necessarily via userboxes in
the template namespace. It may be too early to judge though.

Steve


from_name: shi zhao

subject: [Wikipedia-l] about Chinese Wikipedia

body:
February 20, Washington Post about Chinese Wikipedia Series:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/AR2006021901335.html

And unblok for zh wp letter appealing:

*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/AR2006021900851.html

*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR2006021800672.html

--[[zh:user:shizhao]]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
On 2/20/06, Justin Cormack <justin at specialbusservice.com> wrote:
> Denying the holocaust is a crime in both Austria and Germany.
>
> Most countries dont have a constitutional right to free speech.
>
> Here in the UK we dont even have a written constitution.

Hmm, understandable, but you wonder if 100 years from now, people
won't think "I wonder whether it really happened or not. People never
got the chance to find out, because the government made it a crime to
ask the question."

Anyway.

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom has completely lost its mind

body:
On 2/18/06, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
> May it please the God-King, the Court's Judgement is as follows:
>
> Henceforth the Court shall recognise that all Parties to this Thread,
> whether past, present or future, are Fish, having the Qualities of
> Fish and the Rights , Duties and Debentures of Fish.  They are hereby
> empowered to place on their Userpages, whether by Hand, Flipper, Claw,
> Pincer, pectoral Fin, Pseudopod, Mandible, or through any other Means
> available to Fish, being Denizens of the Water, or by any Agency
> natural or supernatural, the Words "I am a Fish" in English or any
> other language generally comprehensible to Wikipedians of the common
> Sort (see [[WP:FISH]]).
>
> Signed this day of February, the Year of our Lord
>
> Tony Sidaway
>
> Clerk of Court of the God-King Jimbo (Piscatorial Division)

In support of this, I have created {{user fish}}

--
Mark
[[User:Carnildo]]


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [Wikitech-l] Template magick?

body:
On 2/20/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> "The Cunctator" <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote in
> message news:dfd0b40602190906n4d888a34qdb48560dc5701b31 at mail.gmail.com...
> > Is there some way to write a working template that does what I'd like
> > it to do with this (nonworking) code?
> >
> > As of
> > [{{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>FULLPAGENAME|oldid={{REVISIONID}}}}
> > this edit], this article uses content from {{{source}}}.
> >
> > This is from [[Template:GFDLSource]]
> >
> > As you can see, I'm trying to automatically stamp the article with a
> > link to the current revision.
>
> I would have suggested
> {{fullurl:{{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}|oldid={{subst:REVISIONID}}}} but as you can
> see from the talk page, {{REVISIONID}} doesn't seem to be defined until
> after the save, which means that it would not be avilable for SUBSTitution:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:GFDLSource
>
I think I've figured it out:

Template:

As of [{{fullurl:<includeonly>{{FULLPAGENAME}}</includeonly><noinclude><nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}</nowiki></noinclude>|oldid={{{revision}}}}}
this edit], this article uses content from '''{{{source}}}'''. The
original article was at '''[{{{sourcepath}}}
"{{{sourcearticle}}}"]'''. As with [[Wikipedia]], the text of
{{{source}}} is available under the [[Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free
Documentation License]], and all relevant terms must be followed.

<includeonly>[[Category:GFDL|{{PAGENAME}}]]</includeonly><noinclude><nowiki>[[Category:GFDL|{{PAGENAME}}]]</nowiki></noinclude>

Usage:

{{Template:GFDLSource|source=source
name|sourcepath=url|sourcearticle=article title|revision=Wikipedia
revision id}}

Still trying to figure out if there's any way to usefully use {{REVISIONID}}.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Any way to get {{subst:REVISIONID}} to work?

body:
Would it be possible to get {{subst:REVISIONID}} to work? I.e.,

{{REVISIONID}} displays the current revision id, but there's no way to
capture it in time.

Can {{subst:REVISIONID}} work, or would that be too weird for the system?

If not, PREVREVISIONID would be very helpful; to allow you to stamp
articles with an edit. (I'm working on Template:GFDLSource).


from_name: Michelle Kinney

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
Interesting.  That seems like a very reasonable compromise.

Jareth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jareth)

Jesse W wrote:

>I suspect this may be a good time to mention
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pathoschild/Projects/Userboxes/Policy
>again.
>
>AFIK, this proposal seems to offer sensible concessions to both
>"sides", and to be feasible, and, so far, has gathered considerable
>support.  I'd urge everyone to look it over, add add your comments.
>
>Jesse Weinstein
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
>
>


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
I think the intent was that it would apply to userboxes. (not that I
think it is wise)

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 6:57 AM, John Lee wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/
> Userbox_debates#User:Cjmarsicano.2FUDUIW
>
> This template which I speedied under CSD T1 and pure common sense
> is now
> on DRV because some process wonks are pointing out T1 doesn't apply
> outside template-space. (Which is, if you think about, blatant
> wikilawyering, since now anyone can just create the most offensive,
> polemical and divisive template ever in userspace and have all his
> buddies transclude it on their userpages.) I mentioned I had speedied
> the userbox on the Admins' noticeboard, and two other admins expressed
> agreement:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%
> 27_noticeboard#User:Cjmarsicano.2FUDUIW_deleted
>
> Maybe Jimbo should clarify how literally he wants T1 interpreted and
> whether userboxen in userspace are subject to this sort of thing.
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
I don't know that he has committed glorification of terrorism, but I
suppose one could do so in a Nazi context, or even a Zionist context.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 6:56 AM, Phil Boswell wrote:

> "geni" <geniice at gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f80608430602200539r54a3d709q9c5364d8729acadd at mail.gmail.com...
>
>> On 2/20/06, Steve Bennett
>> <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm, understandable, but you wonder if 100 years from now, people
>>> won't think "I wonder whether it really happened or not. People
>>> never
>>> got the chance to find out, because the government made it a
>>> crime to
>>> ask the question."
>>>
>> It is not a crime to question the holocaust in the UK. Holocaust
>> denial is alive and well in the US and probably the UK.
>>
>
> Hence why this repellent man is being prosecuted in Vienna, not
> London.
>
> I wonder if he could be hammered for "glorification of terrorism"?
>
> I suppose some nit-picker will say the Holocaust wasn't "terrorism"...
> --
> Phil
> [[en:User:Phil Boswell]]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
You were right though. BUT DON'T START REVERTING.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Tony Sidaway wrote:

> I edited CSD T1 a week or so ago to cover transclusion in any space,
> precisely because some T1 speedies had shown up again in userspace
> (created in a good faith belief that otherwise objectionable templates
> would be acceptable if in userspace).  It didn't last, Crotalus (who
> had created the userspace templates) reverted and the clause hasn't
> reappeared.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
On 2/20/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hence why this repellent man is being prosecuted in Vienna, not London.
>
> I wonder if he could be hammered for "glorification of terrorism"?
>
> I suppose some nit-picker will say the Holocaust wasn't "terrorism"...

Because he gave an "illegal" speech in Austria, not the UK.

I don't think the holocaust would be considered terrorism, since it
was authorised by the state. But dear god let's not go there (even if
what I said was complete rubbish, let's just let it go).

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
I think he knows that the right solution is for the community to
arrive at a policy by the process of consensus. That requires
effective participation in policy making at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Proposed_policy_on_userboxes

and other appropriate places.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 8:20 AM, Death Phoenix wrote:

> I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't
> know what
> the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
> userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning
> to point
> to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about
> this whole
> mess.
>
> I think Jimbo came pretty close to expressing his wishes with the
> Template
> CSD, but there will likely come a time when we need him to make a
> stronger
> and more official statement on Wikipedia.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
There was a time in the history of the Roman Empire when the Republic
was replaced by the Empire and rule by force rather than by consent
began. It was all downhill from then on. Wikipedia would take a
pitifully long time to fail.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 9:02 AM, Death Phoenix wrote:

> Of  course we operate by consensus. I'd have it no other way.
> However, even
> assuming that we reach consensus after months of discussion, it
> will likely
> take no less than a direct statement from Jimbo to stop any further
> feudin'
> and fussin'. There will always be people on the extreme ends of the
> userbox
> arguments, and those folks are very unlikely to change their minds
> regardless of any consensus. How they act (and how we respond)
> depends on
> how much "muscle" is behind any userbox decrees. I'd argue that
> there is
> nothing more "muscular" than a decree by Jimbo.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
A leader cannot be replaced by someone who is not a leader, who most
of us don't respect but see as a troublemaker.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 9:03 AM, John Lee wrote:

> Certainly not when we have former admins proposing the oustre of Jimbo
> ([[User:Karmafist/manifesto]]) and his replacement with an "elected
> executive" whose powers would be limited to managing the servers and
> basically all the crap Jimbo does now, minus any involvement with
> Wikipedia. The newbie disconnect is growing, and people who should
> know
> better are exacerbating it.
>
> John


subject: [WikiEN-l] Shoko Asahara Wikipedia article

body:
The article starts off: "the founder and former guru of the Japanese
cult Aum Shinrikyo (now known as Aleph), convicted of masterminding
the 1995 Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway ". Hardly a
hagiography. But you know Jim Jones had a reasonably effective and
compassionate ministry until he went bonkers. So I suppose his
article would have some of the same characteristics.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 10:13 AM, kosebamse at gmx.net wrote:

> It seems that convicted mass murderer Shoko Asahara is in the
> headlines (see
> examples at http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=asahara ).
> Looking up
> the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoko_Asahara I was somewhat
> annoyed to see that it reads rather hagiographical. Lots of talk about
> Asahara's achievements as a religious teacher, but very little
> criticism.
> The article in its present form is not likely to generate much public
> admiration for the quality of our work.
>
> My apologies for bothering the list with this, as the matter should
> normally
> be referred to peer review et al.; however I thought it might be a
> little
> urgent. I am afraid I won't be able to help myself, as I know next to
> nothing about the person and the relevant sources are likely to be in
> Japanese.
>
> Kosebamse
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch?
> NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: charles matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
 "Death Phoenix"  wrote

> ... there will likely come a time when we need him to make a stronger
> and more official statement on Wikipedia.

These discussions and evolutions are lengthy, for good reasons.  We operate
by consensus, not by unanimity, for one thing.

For another thing, the 'community' aspects of WP are the face we show
ourselves.  The face turned towards the outside world -  basically the
servers, software development and legal aspects - can throw up problems that
are much more pressing.

The only reason I can see that the boxen are possibly a 'defining issue', in
some people's minds, is that there is always likely to be a defining issue.
The way this has come up seems to me to be largely 'contingent'.  I'd be
surprised if Jimbo thought otherwise, that this was somehow a growing pain
that it was necessary for us to experience.  It does feel as if after five
years the learning curve of how we live together suddenly has become that
much steeper.  But it is nothing that the external critics have ever raised.
Due caution in coming to judgement on it seems entirely understandable.

Charles


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

subject: [Wikitech-l] MW1.5: When do magic words bind in transclusion?

in_reply_to:
<20060218130317.D20186@cgi.jachomes.com>;
	from "Jay R. Ashworth" <jra@baylink.com> on Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at
	01:03:17PM -0500

body:
On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 01:03:17PM -0500, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> I have a template ("A").
>
> This template is instantiated on many pages ("A"->"B", "A"->"C", "A"->"D").
>
> Those pages are in turn transcluded onto other pages:
>
> "A"->"B"->"E"
> "A"->"B"->"F"
> "A"->"B"->"G"
> "A"->"C"->"H"
> "A"->"C"->"I"
> "A"->"C"->"J"
> "A"->"D"->"K"
> "A"->"D"->"L"
>
> What I'm trying to accomplish is to include a link on "A" that, when
> the user is looking at "I" will permit them to edit "C".
>
> I had been hoping that I could include the PAGENAMEE magic word in the
> template ("A") as part of an HTTP edit link, but alas, PAGENAMEE (and
> presumably all the other magic words that pertain to pages) bind so
> late in the parse chain that they point to "I" in that situation.
>
> In a situation like this, is there any reasonable way to grab the name
> of "C" from inside the code of "A"?  Something with subst:, maybe?

And it turns out I was damned close.  Further spelunking in the help,
which I was too sick to do the other day, apparently, suggests that the
comments in the subst section at

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Variable#Depending_on_page

to wit:

  When a template containing
  {{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>PAGENAME}} is subst'ed in a page,
  the name of the latter page is put in the wikitext, and similarly for
  other variables.

which is precisely what I need: when someone creates a B which
transcludes A, B will contain it's own name as part of the edit link.

But it doesn't appear to be working.  The created B instead includes
the uninterpreted {{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>PAGENAME}} .

This is in 1.5.3.  That help page doesn't say 1.6-only as some do; is
this a 1.6-only behavior anyway?  Or am I missing something else?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	A: No.
	Q: Should I include quotations after my message body?


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] about Chinese Wikipedia

body:
Defininitey one of the better articles about Wikipedia, and certainly
the best about the block in China.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On 2/20/06, shi zhao <shizhao at gmail.com> wrote:
> February 20, Washington Post about Chinese Wikipedia Series:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/AR2006021901335.html
>
> And unblok for zh wp letter appealing:
>
>
> *
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/AR2006021900851.html
>
> *
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR2006021800672.html
>
> --[[zh:user:shizhao]]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Philip Welch

body:
>> My main problem with posts by "Phil Boswell" is that they contain
>> gratuitous unsolicited commentary on other people. No one cares what
>> you think about anyone, so just Sierra Tango Whiskey Foxtrot. Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
> Shouldn't that be Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform? Or am I confusing this
> with another acronym?

Bah, you're right.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
"Ben Emmel" wrote

>.However, the
> userboxen supporters are also the loudest in shouting "Cabal, Cabal!!",
> and
> hearkening for the ruin of Jimbo.

There is no cabal <yawn>.  But I've seen nothing more likely to create one
<shrug>.  Us-and-themifying admin actions, in particular.

Charles


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikidiff2

body:
"Adrian Buehlmann" <adrian at cadifra.com> wrote in
message news:dtcq8s$33l$1 at sea.gmane.org...
> "Tim Starling" wrote:
>> An enhanced version of the C++ diff extension, wikidiff2, is now
>> running on both clusters.
>
> This one could be better:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binding_of_Isaac&diff=40442877&oldid=39680991

At first I couldn't see what you meant, they all seemed to line up fine. But
then I realised what the trouble was: that *is* subtle isn't it!

For those checking this to see what the problem is, there is a series of
multi-line paragraphs (i.e. each paragraph is made up of several separate
lines), all very similar. Some have been changed, some not. The DIFF gets
out of step, and the changes are not shown opposite the relevant paragraph.

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: 田中 万太郎

subject: [Wikitech-l] Non-Compliant Direct-Loader of Vietnamese Wikipedia

body:
--- Minh Nguyen <mxn at zoomtown.com> wrote?

> The website uses
> <http://www.vacilando.org/index.php?x=7065>, a
> direct-loading PHP script. The author of that script
> maintains a
> poorly-behaved Wikipedia mirror at
> <http://www.vacilando.org/index.php?title=Main_Page>.

oh dear. If you use the Google search for phrase "using
Wikipedia Reflection Script", you can see many more sites
which are using this script :-(.

TANAKA

--------------------------------------
GANBARE! NIPPON!
Yahoo! JAPAN JOC OFFICIAL INTERNET PORTAL SITE PARTNER
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ganbare-nippon/


body:
--- Minh Nguyen <mxn at zoomtown.com> ?????????
> ?? ??? wrote:
> > --- Minh Nguyen <mxn at zoomtown.com> wrote?
> >
> >> The website uses
> >> <http://www.vacilando.org/index.php?x=7065>, a
> >> direct-loading PHP script. The author of that
> script
> >> maintains a
> >> poorly-behaved Wikipedia mirror at
> >>
> <http://www.vacilando.org/index.php?title=Main_Page>.
> >
> > oh dear. If you use the Google search for phrase
> "using
> > Wikipedia Reflection Script", you can see many
> more sites
> > which are using this script :-(.
> >
> > TANAKA
>
> Yes, but at least those websites are courteous
> enough to leave in credit
> to the script's author... just think of the websites
> that, like Viet99,
> relegate any mention of the reflector script to an
> obscure comment in
> the source code.

But, it is not just a question of the license, all these
sites are "live mirrors", which is against policy of
Wikipedia, See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks ,

Section "Remote loading".

Though, I think Viet99 should be the first to be banned.

TANAKA

--------------------------------------
GANBARE! NIPPON!
Yahoo! JAPAN JOC OFFICIAL INTERNET PORTAL SITE PARTNER
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ganbare-nippon/


from_name: Dschwen

subject: [Wikitech-l] New Google Maps extension.

body:
Since the old extension seems dormant/not working, and I didn't know about it
when I started mine :-), here is a new one:

http://www.schwen.de/wiki/GMap

This extension lets you embed an arbitrary amount of fully interactive Google
Maps objects into your wikipages. The mapcontrols appear when you move the
mouse over the map, and disappear when you leave it. A helper widget is
available wich outputs current coordinates and zoom-level on click, making it
easy to choose a map locaton to display.

It currently works in Konqueror and Firefox (Windows and Linux). I'm not so
sure about IE, maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I plan on
adding markers. If you remember my dynamap extension, it is undergoing a
complete rewrite.

Cheers,
Daniel
--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dschwen
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dschwen
http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dschwen
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dschwen


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
GerardM wrote:

>Hoi,
>From Ray's response it is clear that I must have expressed myself
>poorly. I have the feeling that he does not get what I tried to say..
>So let me try again.
>
>On 2/20/06, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>GerardM wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The material was created at http://wikibooks.org/wiki/Farsi. It was in
>>>the days when everything was still there. The original material had
>>>one basic flaw; it was written left to right while Farsi is written
>>>
>>>
>>>from left to right.  While working on this material, it struck me that
>>
>>
>>>it is really sad that you have to create teaching material that is as
>>>basic as this for every language.
>>>
>>>
>>I don't see anything sad about it at all.  It seems perfectly normal
>>that newbies to Farsi or any other subject would begin at this very
>>basic level.
>>
>>
>It is indeed perfectly normal that people new to Farsi need to learn
>their characters, need to learn the sounds of the language, need to
>learn to read from right to left. What is sad is that we have to work
>hard to create such material for all languages.. remember there are
>over 10.000 languages out there.
>
Why should hard work be so sad?  I agree that 10,000 languages implies
100,000,000 language pairs, but most of those pairs are highly
unrealistic.  Once the fundamentals of a language have been grasped only
then can you go on to extensive vocabulary building.  Lessons need to
explain the most elementary concepts like why an English adjective
usually precedes the noun while a French one normally comes after.

Hard work should not be circumvented by the belief that there is some
software magic pill that will do it all for you.

>>>As we were creating the concepts for what was called "Ultimate
>>>Wiktionary" but what is currently known as WiktionaryZ, it came to me
>>>that we should not have the Dutch words there as the translation for
>>>the Farsi content, but that we should have the translation of the
>>>Farsi words in the language of the student. This would mean that
>>>everybody can use the material.
>>>
>>>
>>This is not a Wiktionary issue; it is a grammar issue.  It is about
>>deciding where the to put the line between vocabulary and how it is put
>>together to form a language.  These lessons should be in the Wikibook
>>for the student's own language, where the particularities of the target
>>language will be explained in a way that he understands.  As long as a
>>lesson is a mere word list nobody will be able to learn from it.
>>
>>
>What I discuss is the idea to have what is called for WiktionaryZ a
>"DefinedMeaning"; a word is associated with a particular definition.
>This combination of a word in a language and its defintion is
>translated in as many languages as possible. When the word in Farsi is
>partnered with a reference to a DefinedMeaning, we can based on things
>like the language settings of the user show a word like "mother" in
>the user's language for me it would be "moeder" wiht ?????.
>
>When you look at the Farsi lessons; you might have noticed that in
>every lesson a few more sounds and characters are introduced. That is
>the objective of these lessons.
>
Yes, I looked at the first "lesson", and I did see the first four lines
as referring to four letters of the Farsi alphabet.  Tying this to
Wiktionary2 doesn't help anybody.  Word lists are not lessons.
Languages are learned in a meningful context, not by having students
memorize a random list of translated words.  There are many elementary
concepts in the syntax of a language that absolutely need to be
explained from the beginning.  When the language has a different script
many language teachers believe that introducing the script at the very
beginning is not important, but that the student should learn the
fundamental structures of the spoken language first.  That can be done
with romanized script.

It is the spoken not the written form that contains the fundamentals of
the language.

>>>Today I was asked by someone where the Farsi lessons were, somebody
>>>actually wants to use it.. This means that all this effort had people
>>>use it... It meant that all the pronunciations were going to be
>>>listened to... The material is not there anymore .. it is not useful
>>>anymore ..
>>>
>>>
>>The material is still there but most of the pages appear to have been
>>orphaned.  See [[Talk:Farsi]] for links when someone was asking about
>>what to do with the orphaned pages.  It was User 83.116.146.232
>>who copied all this material to the fa:wikibooks, and re-linked to it to
>>create all the orphans.  His effort was incomplete as he did not do this
>>with the later lessons.  He has not been seen since March of last year.
>>
>>
>The material in the Farsi wikibooks is there because that is the way
>to get right to left orientation for these lessons. They are called
>from the [[wikibooks:Farsi]] page. They are therefore not orphaned
>even though your wiki experience might suggest it is.
>
I did not say that the pages on the fa:Wikibooks were orphaned, but that
your original on the en:Wikibooks were orphaned when User:83.116.146.232
copied them into the fa:Wikibooks, and changed the links from the Table
of Contents.  Those original pages are still there on en::Wikibooks.

>>>The timing could have been worse; Brion is busy with the integration
>>>of the namespace manager. It is therefore possible to have pages in
>>>the fa.wikibooks that are specific for the Dutch language and pages
>>>specific for the English language. Alternatively we could have a
>>>namespace for Farsi content in the nl.wikibooks. This would mean
>>>however that we should be able to have a namespace that is oriented in
>>>a different direction from the other namespaces in a database. I do
>>>not know if we can do this already, I am sure however that we will
>>>want something like this for the right to left languages like Farsi in
>>>WiktionaryZ.
>>>
>>>
>>The lesson pages should likely have a mixed orientation, but primarily
>>in the orientation of the student's own language since that is where the
>>instructions will go.
>>
>>
>>>Now there is one practical question remaining; what will we do with
>>>the Farsi lessons in the fa.wikibooks that were originally intended to
>>>teach Dutch people Farsi.
>>>
>>>
>>Assuming that the situation in nl:wikibooks is similar to the English
>>one, the situation should be explained to the fa:community.  They then
>>should feel free to delete them based on their own rules.
>>
>>
>Last time I read some Dutch, it was indeed left to right. :)
>
>
Nobody was saying that Dutch and English had different orientations.
Only that Dutch and English speakers will face very similar problems
when trying to learn Farsi.


from_name: Matt R

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unused userboxes

body:
--- Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ok, so there are two possible scenarios:
> Wheat and chaff: 1 in every X contributors is a useful contributor. If
> we want more useful contributors, we need more contributors overall,
> and put up with the chaff, and develop strategies so it doesn't get
> too annoying (with respect to any chaff reading this list :))
> Amateurs and professionals: If you host a karaoke night, Pavarotti
> doesn't show up. Useful contributors and pokemon fans are two
> fundamentally different beasts (with respect to Pokemon fans).
> Attracting more amateurs won't bring in more pros, and may even drive
> them away.
>
> Who wants to offer their opinion on which model is more accurate?

It could be that both models fit to an extent. Maybe it's a trade-off: the many
and various trolls/vandals/flame warriors/cruft/POV-pushers undoubtedly keep
some better contributors away, but, by the same token, our openness and
egalitarianism attract valuable editors amongst the "chaff" that we just
wouldn't have otherwise.

Larry Sanger thinks that we and the expert-led Digital Universe encyclopedia
project will occupy "socially complementary niches" (http://tinyurl.com/kok5r
).

-- Matt

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto
Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com

___________________________________________________________
NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/


from_name: Adrian Buehlmann

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikidiff2

body:
"Tim Starling" wrote:
> An enhanced version of the C++ diff extension, wikidiff2, is now
> running on both clusters.

This one could be better:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binding_of_Isaac&diff=40442877&oldid=39680991


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unused userboxes

body:
On 2/20/06, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> If you look at RC, new articles, etc, you'll see thousands of editors
> working away. A great many of them are just rambling on about their
> boring high schools and deservedly-obscure garage bands (or adding
> userboxes), and there are quite a few who never go on to do anything
> more substantive. So we have plenty of participants, just not enough
> of the kind that add much value to the project.
>
> To some extent it's unavoidable - there will always be more high
> school students than experts in quantum mechanics - but it's not
> clear to me that large numbers of the very average is an adequate
> substitute for smaller numbers of the scholarly-minded. To abuse
> an analogy, the bazaar only works when people actually bring
> goods and money.

Ok, so there are two possible scenarios:
Wheat and chaff: 1 in every X contributors is a useful contributor. If
we want more useful contributors, we need more contributors overall,
and put up with the chaff, and develop strategies so it doesn't get
too annoying (with respect to any chaff reading this list :))
Amateurs and professionals: If you host a karaoke night, Pavarotti
doesn't show up. Useful contributors and pokemon fans are two
fundamentally different beasts (with respect to Pokemon fans).
Attracting more amateurs won't bring in more pros, and may even drive
them away.

Who wants to offer their opinion on which model is more accurate?

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo and his strategy

body:
On 2/20/06, Death Phoenix <originaldeathphoenix at gmail.com> wrote:
> While I don't agree with everything you're saying or the way you're saying
> it, you make one interesting point: if Jimbo just came right out now and
> said "You are only allowed to have this sort of userbox, and you are only
> allowed to have x amount of them", this userbox fiasco would come to an end:
> admins can go around deleting them and all the userbox defenders would have
> nothing (concrete) to say about it. Conversely, if Jimbo said "all userboxes
> are fine", the userbox defenders are free to keep their userboxes, the
> admins will know not to delete anything, and we'll all be fine.
>
> I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't know what
> the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
> userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning to point
> to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about this whole
> mess.

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that this situation will get
worse without a decree from above. And it's not as if there is some
obvious consensus about what to do. Any strong decision handed down is
likely to have a fair number of people in disagreement.

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:

>On 2/20/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Hence why this repellent man is being prosecuted in Vienna, not London.
>>
>>I wonder if he could be hammered for "glorification of terrorism"?
>>
>>I suppose some nit-picker will say the Holocaust wasn't "terrorism"...
>>
>>
>Because he gave an "illegal" speech in Austria, not the UK.
>
>I don't think the holocaust would be considered terrorism, since it
>was authorised by the state.
>
The term was first applied by Edmund Burke in relation to the Reign of
Terror during the French Revolution.  That was very much authorized by
the state, such as it was.

Ec


from_name: kosebamse at gmx.net

body:
It seems that convicted mass murderer Shoko Asahara is in the headlines (see
examples at http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=asahara ). Looking up
the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoko_Asahara I was somewhat
annoyed to see that it reads rather hagiographical. Lots of talk about
Asahara's achievements as a religious teacher, but very little criticism.
The article in its present form is not likely to generate much public
admiration for the quality of our work.

My apologies for bothering the list with this, as the matter should normally
be referred to peer review et al.; however I thought it might be a little
urgent. I am afraid I won't be able to help myself, as I know next to
nothing about the person and the relevant sources are likely to be in
Japanese.

Kosebamse

--
Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch?
NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikidiff2

references:
<dtbtss$tkf$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<dtcq8s$33l$1@sea.gmane.org><dtcr0g$5rv$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<dtcvbt$mr9$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
"Adrian Buehlmann" <adrian at cadifra.com> wrote in
message news:dtcvbt$mr9$1 at sea.gmane.org...
[snip]
> This one is even more extreme:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AIDS&diff=40206516&oldid=40206062
> That text didn't change at all. Only added spaces and newlines.
> It don't know if this is possible. But a bit less red in such a case
> would be good.

I have been trying in a desultory sort of way to figure out how to make the
altered white-space show up properly in DIFFs.

I'm not convinced it's actually possible with the current implementation :-(
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikidiff2

references:
<dtbtss$tkf$1@sea.gmane.org> <dtcq8s$33l$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<dtcr0g$5rv$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
"Phil Boswell" wrote:
> "Adrian Buehlmann" wrote:
>> "Tim Starling" wrote:
>>> An enhanced version of the C++ diff extension, wikidiff2, is now
>>> running on both clusters.
>>
>> This one could be better:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binding_of_Isaac&diff=40442877&oldid=39680991
>
> At first I couldn't see what you meant, they all seemed to line up
> fine. But then I realised what the trouble was: that *is* subtle
> isn't it!
> For those checking this to see what the problem is, there is a series
> of multi-line paragraphs (i.e. each paragraph is made up of several
> separate lines), all very similar. Some have been changed, some not.
> The DIFF gets out of step, and the changes are not shown opposite the
> relevant paragraph.

This one is even more extreme:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AIDS&diff=40206516&oldid=40206062

That text didn't change at all. Only added spaces and newlines.

It don't know if this is possible. But a bit less red in such a case
would be good.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
"Steve Bennett" <stevage at gmail.com> wrote in
message news:f1c3529e0602200608u2362b840w3b48d0c339732ee at mail.gmail.com...
> On 2/20/06, Phil Boswell
> <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hence why this repellent man is being prosecuted in Vienna, not London.
>> I wonder if he could be hammered for "glorification of terrorism"?
>> I suppose some nit-picker will say the Holocaust wasn't "terrorism"...
> Because he gave an "illegal" speech in Austria, not the UK.

Has he actually given any speeches in the UK which might fit the criteria?

> I don't think the holocaust would be considered terrorism, since it
> was authorised by the state. But dear god let's not go there (even if
> what I said was complete rubbish, let's just let it go).

Good call!
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of free speech

body:
On 20/02/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Steve Bennett" <stevage at gmail.com> wrote in
> message news:f1c3529e0602200608u2362b840w3b48d0c339732ee at mail.gmail.com...
> > On 2/20/06, Phil Boswell
> > <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hence why this repellent man is being prosecuted in Vienna, not London.
> >> I wonder if he could be hammered for "glorification of terrorism"?
> >> I suppose some nit-picker will say the Holocaust wasn't "terrorism"...
> > Because he gave an "illegal" speech in Austria, not the UK.
>
> Has he actually given any speeches in the UK which might fit the criteria?

Of "illegal under local law"? No. Of "holocaust denial"? Almost certainly.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikidiff2

body:
An enhanced version of the C++ diff extension, wikidiff2, is now running on both clusters. It now
does character-level diffs on Chinese, Japanese and Thai, so it produces much better results than
the PHP diff algorithm, in a much shorter time to boot. Chinese had an ad-hoc segmentation scheme
based on inserting a space between every character before the diff, then removing the spaces
afterwards, but unfortunately that left spaces all over the place where there shouldn't have been
spaces. Anyway, it's fixed now.

We're still calling dl() every time a diff is needed, and I'm still waiting for profiling results on
the effect of that. The performance of the algorithm is quite good though, on our opterons, it can
diff 2MB (each side) of the most pathological input text I've yet been able to devise in 5.2
seconds, and it does it with only about 15MB of memory.

-- Tim Starling