subject: [Foundation-l] pro & con Wikiseek

body:
Thomas M?ller wrote:
> Hi,
> I like the idea of wikiseek, to index only wikipedia content and the urls edited in wikipedia as weblinks.
>
> This was as well the concept develped here on the net.
> So it is a "w+1" hop" concept.
>
> Contra: The problem is,
> - that the database is still not open (where to download?)

It's not a Wikimedia project. They don't have that obligation.

> - the search box of wikipedia already is doing the function

It's not a Wikimedia project, so the redundancy doesn't hurt us.

> - it is a advertising spin-off of wikipedia ?, which is introducing advertising through the backdoor into wikipedia.

It's a project independent from Wikimedia and Wikia.

> - Is this a Jimmy engine ? or just hosted at wikipedia?

I don't know about the former. It's not hosted at Wikipedia because it's
not a Wikimedia project.

> - quote:, "of course i am sad that it is a company rather than an open source project" - so the spin-of is taking a distance to the open source approace of the coding and the open source approach of the database,

It's not Wikimedia, so I don't think anyone here is specially qualified
to comment on their reasoning. And nothing obligates them to take an
open-source approach to development, even if they index Wikipedia's content.

> - searching wikiseek will found wikipedia? this is not the way to go, as we can found wikipedia directly, all other is oeconomic corruption of an encyclopaedie? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCPA

If you don't like it, don't use it.

> - Searchme was co-founded by Randy Adams, CEO, and John Holland, CMO. The Company received initial funding from Sequoia Capital, so nothing related to the goals of Jimmy?

No idea.

> - not a java engine

That's a *bad* thing?

> - this project is disturbing the community, as no one knows the network and relationships for the collaboration from whom to whom.

I would say it's having no effect on the community.

> - wiki goes oeconomic?

Hmm?

> - if it is not open source, why then not using google.

Use Google if you like. For me, Google still seems to give better
results, even for Wikipedia.

> - wikiseek is violating the GPL licence of wikipedia, as users give the urls reviewed by hand to wikipedia as  well in licence of GPL. Any Bibliographic index has a copyright, and this is GPL for the external lists of weburls to each article, as the url is not just an url, but a content reference of the article. As the database of wikiseek is using and summarizing them, and it is not a GPL database of wikisek, this is a licence conflict.

No, it's not. Search engine indexes do not need to obtain licensing for
the media they index.

> Well, the draft of this search engine proposal is good, but not workable on the market, as any wikipedia has a search box for the works and as well you get the external links in the acticle after you have read it.

I think either success or failure would have little impact on the people
here.

> any comments? ;-)
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 23:37:26 +0100
>
>> Englisch:
>> http://www.wikiseek.com/index.php
>> http://wikiseek.wikia.com/wiki/Wikiseek_Community_Wiki
>
>
> Wikiseek is a new way to search Wikipedia. Wikiseek searches only Wikipedia and external Wikipedia links. Because these links are selected by the Wikipedia community, Wikiseek search results are likely to return more relevant results for many searches.
>
> This Wikiseek Community Wiki is hosted by Wikia but Wikiseek is an independent project with no affiliation with Wikia or Wikipedia.
>

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list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: "Thomas Müller"

subject:
[Foundation-l] 1 M dollars on Wikipedia Day (Fundraising...
	over)

body:
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:22:05 +0100
Von: Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com>
> Hello all,
>
> I was too tired yesterday to keep my eyes open and my hands typing, to
> announce the end of our fundraising 1 Million Dollar for wikipedia :-)

Hi Anthere,

thanks a lot for the announcement. As I see, the board meeting in amsterdam was useful as well. Between the lines I read, that a lot of discussion for financial questions and fundraising has been done.

Ok, Wikipedia ia a big dursty fish now. But I want to suggest, that as well it is discussed, how to get a higher quality standard and an continuous improvement of the status quo.

As already known, I think that not only in wikipedia edited knowledge is important, but as ell to make the whole editing in the web available for the wikipedia, which is the search for articles outside wikipedia.

So... the open source search-project from Jim is already launched, but again it do not want to get tired, to ask, if wikimedia and wikipedia are as well in the boat to finance a support for this open source search project to be an alternatove to gogle and yahoo.

As on the other list discussed, the p2p search engine www.yacy.net is one option for this. Wikia has not decided for it yet, but it is clear to see, that a lot of users from this discussion group are already running a p2p web indexing node as you can see in the http://www.yacystats.de/ .

So.. three servers from wikia really do not matter, we have already 50 server-nodes added from the list by private activity to the network.

One big serverfarm is www.yacysearch.com , a big demopeer, which I am not related to, but it would be a good model, which wikia and wikipedia could follow.

Ok, back to the money. My vision is to have in each wikipedia language a search box for the articles outside the wikipedia, which is the web.

Now you can do this without running own servers.

here is the code, to add a search box to any homepage for this demopeer yacysearch.com

It would be a good project, to play around with this html code, I think yacysearch.com can handle the traffic - and it would be nice, to see wikimedia as well running a small farm of yacy servers to handle queries with a big local database.

So please, add some money to the servers and install some search-outside-nodes to the p2p network or play around with the following homepagecode

thanks a lot !

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

    <form target="_top" class="search" action="http://yacysearch.com/yacysearch.html" method="get" name="searchform">
      <fieldset class="maininput">

        <input type="hidden" name="display" value="0" />
        <input name="search" id="search" type="text" size="24" maxlength="80" value="" />
        <input type="submit" name="Enter" value="Search" />

        <input type="radio"  name="urlmaskfilter" value=".*" checked="checked" />This Site
        <input type="radio"  name="urlmaskfilter" value=".*"  />The Internet

        <input type="hidden" name="former" value="" />
        <input type="hidden"  name="contentdom" value="text" />
        <input type="hidden" name="count" value="50" />
        <input type="hidden" name="resource" value="global" />
        <input type="hidden" name="time" value="3" />
        <input type="hidden" name="prefermaskfilter" value="" />
        <input type="hidden" name="indexof" value="off" />

      </fieldset>
    </form>

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

--
"Feel free" - 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat ...
Jetzt GMX TopMail testen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikien-l

from_name: Earle Martin

subject: [WikiEN-l] incivility.

body:
On 16/01/07, Christopher Thieme <cdthieme at gmail.com> wrote:
> > P.S. Your emails are breaking mailing list threads in Gmail.
>
> I don't even begin to know what that means, and as a result I'm inclined to
> not really care.

Way to go on the "considering other people" front there.

Gmail groups email replies together as "conversations" (known in other
mail clients as "threads"). Every time you send a reply to this list,
you break these conversations apart, because whatever you are using to
write email with is not including the In-Reply-To header. Before you
say "I don't know what that is so I don't care", I suggest you read
about email headers at http://www.stopspam.org/email/headers.html, and
if you still want to plead ignorance, you can continue to RFC 822, the
specification document originally defining it, at
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc822.html. Given that RFC 822 sees its
twenty-fifth birthday this August, your mail client clearly has some
issues to address.

The upshot of all this is that your messages effectively double the
number of apparent conversations in Gmail users' WikiEN-l mailboxes,
which is annoying, and your attitude is even more so. Please devote
the time necessary to identify and rectify both issues.

--
Earle Martin
            http://downlode.org/
http://purl.org/net/earlemartin/


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] No consensus

body:
It's very nice in Wikipedia to work with consensus. But what if no consensus
is found? How is it decided then?

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


from_name: Mark Wagner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

body:
On 1/16/07, Mathias Schindler <mathias.schindler at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/16/07, ? Firefoxman <enwpmail at gmail.com> wrote:
> > What is Citizendium?
> >
>
> Larry Sanger's fifth yet-to-be-launched attempt to let someone else
> write an encyclopedia.

Fifth?  I know about Nupedia, Wikipedia, one whose name I can't
remember, and Citizendium, but what one am I missing?

--
Mark
[[User:Carnildo]]


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Navigating the flame wars of the Daniel
	Brandt	controversy

body:
Rob Smith wrote:
> Navigating flame wars of the Daniel Brandt controversy and how the Brandt
> bio came into being is available for review.
>
> http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=6072&view=findpost&p=20802
>
Geez, one screenful and I'm bored out of my skull. It could use a
section that explains why anybody should care - the only place I've ever
heard about any of this is on the mailing list, it simply doesn't come
up in either my regular editing or admin activities.

Stan


from_name: Nina Stratton

body:
I'm a 40 (almost) year old black woman who dropped out of high school and
never finished college. I'm also fundamentally opposed to "experts" running
anything I have to do with. I can read, I can write, and I can learn. That's
all I need and all I will ever need.

I wish Citizendium well, but this latest bit of news comes as no surprise.
We'll hear more.

Nina

"Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us and
conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul Kalam


from_name: Keith Old

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Talk before you type: Interesting paper on growth in
	Wikipedia talk pages

body:
G'day folks,

Researchers at IBM's Visual Comnunication Lab have published an interesting
paper called "Talk Before You Type: Coordination in Wikipedia" at the 40th
Hawaii International Conference on System Sciences held recently.

http://www.hicss.hawaii.edu/hicss_40/decisionbp/03_04_07.pdf

It shows an interesting representation of edit wars and looks at a strong
growth in talk and user talk pages. It was posted on Chris Lott's blog which
is also worth a look.

http://www.chrislott.org/2007/01/15/visualizing-wikipedia-change/

Regards

*Keith Old*


from_name: Michael Bimmler

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Canada mailing list now exists

body:
On 1/16/07, Nicholas Moreau <nicholasmoreau at gmail.com> wrote:

> * Is it bilingual? : To be discussed. The Swiss mailing list is
> quatrolingual. but let's concentrate on discussing stuff in English
> first, as only two members of over 100 are unilingual Francophones.
>

For the record: Although we certainly answer and take note of french,
italian or rhaeto-romanic posts, we use English as "working language"
for internal communication, be it the public wikimediach-l or internal
private mailinglists. There are some german threads from time to time,
but the mailinglist is de facto english.

Michael


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Moving the Main Page

body:
On 1/15/07, Ken Arromdee <arromdee at rahul.net> wrote:
> > > I am amazed people fall over themselves to comply with constraints
> > > that simply don't matter.
>
> Because if constraints don't apply to everyone, it's possible to make a
> constraint, pawn off the inconvenience from the constraint on someone else,
> and not care about the inconvenience yourself because you've exempted
> yourself from it.

For this argument to work, there would have to be a tangible way that
the main page is hurting the namespace policy. Is it? Are people
putting wikiproject pages willy nilly in the mainspace? Are people
rampantly putting userpages and userboxes where they don't belong and
then claiming "well, the main page does it, so why can't I???"

Is there any reason what so ever to move the main page, except "policy
for policys sake"? Because that argument doesn't fly with us.

--Oskar


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] No consensus

body:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andre Engels [mailto:andreengels at gmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 09:31 AM
>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] No consensus
>
>It's very nice in Wikipedia to work with consensus. But what if no consensus
>is found? How is it decided then?

Look to existing practice. And keep trying.

Fred


from_name: Mak

subject: [WikiEN-l] Policies for students regarding use of Wikipedia?

body:
An article I found really interesting was Wikipedia: Unreliable Source,
Useful Heuristic
Tool<Wikipedia:%20Unreliable%20Source,%20Useful%20Heuristic%20Tool>
from
the Society of Biblical Literature, a very well respected society of
Biblical scholarship. It talks about Wikipedia as a possible eventual good
way to get really excellent information (a form of
Eventualism<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eventualism>if you will)
and that right now it's a good tool to use to find other
sources, and to get some basic vocabulary.

I think this should be very encouraging to all those who have been slogging
away finding tons of sources for their articles. Not only does it make
people trust Wikipedia more, it also makes it a much more useful tool for
people who are doing deeper research.

Makemi

On 1/16/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think you covered the main points.
> I don't think it should be called a policy. All it really is, is an
> explanation. But that's just me.
>
> Mgm
>
>
> On 1/16/07, phoebe ayers <phoebe.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I received a message (below) from a librarian at a US high school who is
> > considering writing a policy for their students regarding the use of
> > Wikipedia in research papers. She asked for my input and whether I knew
> of
> > any similar policies in schools -- either middle and high schools or
> > colleges and universities. This:
> > http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/lists_archive/Humanist/v20/0080.html
> > is the kind of thing she's interested in  (this particular policy
> appears,
> > by the way, to be completely sensible -- the main flaws I found were
> they
> > missed the permanent link and citation features, and they called us "the
> > world's blog").
> >
> > I pointed her towards
> > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools_FAQ
> > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia
> > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Researching_with_Wikipedia, and
> > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use
> >
> > which seem to be en:'s documentation on the subject of academic use. But
> > I'm
> > wondering if any of you:
> >
> > * know of such policies at specific institutions (and if so if you can
> > send
> > me a link)
> > * know of commentary on, or a list of, such policies (either from our
> > lists
> > & sites or other places)
> > * have comments about such policies and what should go into them.
> > * if any of you are librarians or professors, if you have answers for
> the
> > last question about how WP is handled at reference desks and in classes.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > phoebe (brassratgirl)
> >
> > here's the message (with specific campus names taken out):
> >
> > >I am the head librarian at a college prep high school in California. We
> > are
> >
> > >considering writing a school policy regarding the use of Wikipedia in
> > >academic research. I am gathering as much information as I can from
> > >universities because I would like our policy and instruction to reflect
> > what
> > >our students will be met with once they leave us.
> > >
> > >  Does the University of California have a policy about the use of
> > Wikipedia or do professors to
> > >set guidelines for its use?
> > >
> > >  In your opinion, based on your experience at various universities,
> are
> > students allowed to cite it in academic research papers?
> > >
> > >  Do professors address it at all and how is it handled at the
> reference
> > desk at university libraries.
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Sorry, the link doesn't seem to have made it, it's at
http://www.sbl-site.org/Article.aspx?ArticleId=612

On 1/16/07, Mak <makwik at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> An article I found really interesting was Wikipedia: Unreliable Source,
> Useful Heuristic Tool from the Society of Biblical Literature, a very well
> respected society of Biblical scholarship. It talks about Wikipedia as a
> possible eventual good way to get really excellent information (a form of
> Eventualism <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eventualism> if you will) and
> that right now it's a good tool to use to find other sources, and to get
> some basic vocabulary.
>
> I think this should be very encouraging to all those who have been
> slogging away finding tons of sources for their articles. Not only does it
> make people trust Wikipedia more, it also makes it a much more useful tool
> for people who are doing deeper research.
>
> Makemi
>
> On 1/16/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think you covered the main points.
> > I don't think it should be called a policy. All it really is, is an
> > explanation. But that's just me.
> >
> > Mgm
> >
> >
> > On 1/16/07, phoebe ayers < phoebe.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > I received a message (below) from a librarian at a US high school who
> > is
> > > considering writing a policy for their students regarding the use of
> > > Wikipedia in research papers. She asked for my input and whether I
> > knew of
> > > any similar policies in schools -- either middle and high schools or
> > > colleges and universities. This:
> > > http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/lists_archive/Humanist/v20/0080.html
> > > is the kind of thing she's interested in  (this particular policy
> > appears,
> > > by the way, to be completely sensible -- the main flaws I found were
> > they
> > > missed the permanent link and citation features, and they called us
> > "the
> > > world's blog").
> > >
> > > I pointed her towards
> > > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools_FAQ
> > > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia
> > > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Researching_with_Wikipedia,
> > and
> > > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use
> > >
> > > which seem to be en:'s documentation on the subject of academic use.
> > But
> > > I'm
> > > wondering if any of you:
> > >
> > > * know of such policies at specific institutions (and if so if you can
> > > send
> > > me a link)
> > > * know of commentary on, or a list of, such policies (either from our
> > > lists
> > > & sites or other places)
> > > * have comments about such policies and what should go into them.
> > > * if any of you are librarians or professors, if you have answers for
> > the
> > > last question about how WP is handled at reference desks and in
> > classes.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > phoebe (brassratgirl)
> > >
> > > here's the message (with specific campus names taken out):
> > >
> > > >I am the head librarian at a college prep high school in California.
> > We
> > > are
> > >
> > > >considering writing a school policy regarding the use of Wikipedia in
> > > >academic research. I am gathering as much information as I can from
> > > >universities because I would like our policy and instruction to
> > reflect
> > > what
> > > >our students will be met with once they leave us.
> > > >
> > > >  Does the University of California have a policy about the use of
> > > Wikipedia or do professors to
> > > >set guidelines for its use?
> > > >
> > > >  In your opinion, based on your experience at various universities,
> > are
> > > students allowed to cite it in academic research papers?
> > > >
> > > >  Do professors address it at all and how is it handled at the
> > reference
> > > desk at university libraries.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>


from_name: David Strauss

subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out

body:
I don't understand the critical reaction to Wikiseek. No one here would
criticize a new search engine that indexed the whole web *including*
Wikipedia, so there's no reason to criticize a search engine that
indexes *only* Wikipedia.

I also don't see how Wikiseek could hurt Wikipedia. If anything, more
avenues to Wikipedia will *increase* the number of readers and editors.

And in the event that Wikiseek is successful, the Foundation might even
receive some sizable contributions.

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subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out

body:
I don't understand the critical reaction to Wikiseek. No one here would
criticize a new search engine that indexed the whole web *including*
Wikipedia, so there's no reason to criticize a search engine that
indexes *only* Wikipedia.

I also don't see how Wikiseek could hurt Wikipedia. If anything, more
avenues to Wikipedia will *increase* the number of readers and editors.

And in the event that Wikiseek is successful, the Foundation might even
receive some sizable contributions.

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subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out

body:
I don't understand the critical reaction to Wikiseek. No one here would
criticize a new search engine that indexed the whole web *including*
Wikipedia, so there's no reason to criticize a search engine that
indexes *only* Wikipedia.

I also don't see how Wikiseek could hurt Wikipedia. If anything, more
avenues to Wikipedia will *increase* the number of readers and editors.

And in the event that Wikiseek is successful, the Foundation might even
receive some sizable contributions.

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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Liang Chen

subject: [Wikitech-l] pda extension ?

body:
Why don't DIourselves, it seems not very hard.

On 1/16/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Timwi schreef:
> >> Howdy folks with weird devices:
> >>
> >> If you want this stuff to work right on your device, donate one and any
> >> necessary subscriptions to the Foundation and we'll test and tweak until
> >> we figure it out.
> >>
> >
> > Within the last month, people have donated over a million dollars. If
> > you can't get a decent Pocket PC from that, I don't know what else you
> need.
> >
> > Timwi
> Hoi,
> This is not how budgeting work. There is a budget that requires /more
> /than a million dollars. Anthere wrote in a recent mail that the WMF is
> still very much in need of funding. So yes, you can pay for a decent
> pocket PC when you have a million dollars available. It is not
> available, the money has been earmarked for other things.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
                     ---BiGreat---
               www.Liang-Chen.com


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Exposure of magic on Wikipedia

body:
Sean Barrett wrote:

> See, this is why I make such a bad cabalist. I can never keep my
>
>conspiracies straight.
>
Conspiracies are never straight.

Ec


from_name: Rob Smith

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Navigating the flame wars of the Daniel Brandt
	controversy

body:
Navigating flame wars of the Daniel Brandt controversy and how the Brandt
bio came into being is available for review.

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=6072&view=findpost&p=20802

nobs01


from_name: Brad Patrick

subject: [Foundation-l] pro & con Wikiseek

body:
Just so everyone is clear - Wikiseek is *not* a Wikimedia project and to
my knowledge, *not* a Wikia project either.  Funding, although announced
on the wikiseek site, is not a formal agreement with WMF.

I won't reply to the rest before I talk to Wikiseek myself.  I'm not
clear, though, on the nature of the claim that it is a violation of the
GFDL.  Why precisely do you think the titles of pages can't be used
without a violation of the GFDL?

-Brad

Thomas M?ller wrote:
> Hi,
> I like the idea of wikiseek, to index only wikipedia content and the urls edited in wikipedia as weblinks.
>
> This was as well the concept develped here on the net.
> So it is a "w+1" hop" concept.
>
> Contra: The problem is,
> - that the database is still not open (where to download?)
> - the search box of wikipedia already is doing the function
> - it is a advertising spin-off of wikipedia ?, which is introducing advertising through the backdoor into wikipedia.
> - Is this a Jimmy engine ? or just hosted at wikipedia?
> - quote:, "of course i am sad that it is a company rather than an open source project" - so the spin-of is taking a distance to the open source approace of the coding and the open source approach of the database,
> - searching wikiseek will found wikipedia? this is not the way to go, as we can found wikipedia directly, all other is oeconomic corruption of an encyclopaedie? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCPA
> - Searchme was co-founded by Randy Adams, CEO, and John Holland, CMO. The Company received initial funding from Sequoia Capital, so nothing related to the goals of Jimmy?
> - not a java engine
> - this project is disturbing the community, as no one knows the network and relationships for the collaboration from whom to whom.
> - wiki goes oeconomic?
> - if it is not open source, why then not using google.
> - wikiseek is violating the GPL licence of wikipedia, as users give the urls reviewed by hand to wikipedia as  well in licence of GPL. Any Bibliographic index has a copyright, and this is GPL for the external lists of weburls to each article, as the url is not just an url, but a content reference of the article. As the database of wikiseek is using and summarizing them, and it is not a GPL database of wikisek, this is a licence conflict.
>
> Well, the draft of this search engine proposal is good, but not workable on the market, as any wikipedia has a search box for the works and as well you get the external links in the acticle after you have read it.
>
> any comments? ;-)
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 23:37:26 +0100
>
>
>> Englisch:
>> http://www.wikiseek.com/index.php
>> http://wikiseek.wikia.com/wiki/Wikiseek_Community_Wiki
>>
>
>
> Wikiseek is a new way to search Wikipedia. Wikiseek searches only Wikipedia and external Wikipedia links. Because these links are selected by the Wikipedia community, Wikiseek search results are likely to return more relevant results for many searches.
>
> This Wikiseek Community Wiki is hosted by Wikia but Wikiseek is an independent project with no affiliation with Wikia or Wikipedia.
>
>


subject: [Foundation-l] pro & con Wikiseek


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Michael Bimmler schreef:
> On 1/16/07, Nicholas Moreau <nicholasmoreau at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> * Is it bilingual? : To be discussed. The Swiss mailing list is
>> quatrolingual. but let's concentrate on discussing stuff in English
>> first, as only two members of over 100 are unilingual Francophones.
>>
>>
>
> For the record: Although we certainly answer and take note of french,
> italian or rhaeto-romanic posts, we use English as "working language"
> for internal communication, be it the public wikimediach-l or internal
> private mailinglists. There are some german threads from time to time,
> but the mailinglist is de facto english.
>
> Michael
Hoi,
Western Abnaki <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:abe> -  Algonquin
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:alq> -  American Sign Language
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ase> -  Assiniboine
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:asb> -  Atikamekw
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:atj> -  Babine
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:bcr> -  Beaver
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:bea> -  Bella Coola
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:blc> -  Blackfoot
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:bla> -  Carrier
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crx> -  Southern Carrier
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:caf> -  Cayuga
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:cay> -  Chilcotin
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:clc> -  Chinook Wawa
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:chn> -  Chipewyan
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:chp> -  Comox
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:coo> -  Moose Cree
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crm> -  Plains Cree
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crk> -  Swampy Cree
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:csw> -  Woods Cree
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:cwd> -  Dakota
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:dak> -  Dogrib
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:dgr> -  Northern East Cree
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crl> -  Southern East Cree
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crj> -  English
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:eng> -  French
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:fra> -  Hutterite German
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:geh> -  Pennsylvania German
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:pdc> -  Gitxsan
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:git> -  Gwich'in
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:gwi> -  Northern Haida
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:hdn> -  Southern Haida
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:hax> -  Haisla
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:has> -  Halkomelem
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:hur> -  Han
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:haa> -  Heiltsuk
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:hei> -  Eastern Canadian Inuktitut
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ike> -  Western Canadian Inuktitut
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ikt> -  North Alaskan Inupiatun
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:esi> -  Kaska
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:kkz> -  Kutenai
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:kut> -  Kwakiutl
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:kwk> -  Lakota
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:lkt> -  Lillooet
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:lil> -  Malecite-Passamaquoddy
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:pqm> -  Maritime Sign Language
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:nsr> -  Michif
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crg> -  Micmac
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:mic> -  Mohawk
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:moh> -  Montagnais
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:moe> -  Munsee
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:umu> -  Naskapi
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:nsk> -  Nisga'a
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ncg> -  Nootka
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:noo> -  Central Ojibwa
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojc> -  Eastern Ojibwa
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojg> -  Northwestern Ojibwa
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojb> -  Severn Ojibwa
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojs> -  Western Ojibwa
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojw> -  Okanagan
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:oka> -  Oneida
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:one> -  Onondaga
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ono> -  Ottawa
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:otw> -  Plautdietsch
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:pdt> -  Potawatomi
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:pot> -  Quebec Sign Language
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:fcs> -  Straits Salish
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:str> -  Sarsi
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:srs> -  Sechelt
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:sec> -  Sekani
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:sek> -  Seneca
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:see> -  Shuswap
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:shs> -  North Slavey
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:scs> -  South Slavey
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:xsl> -  Squamish
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:squ> -  Stoney
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:sto> -  Tagish
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tgx> -  Tahltan
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tht> -  Upper Tanana
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tau> -  Thompson
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:thp> -  Tlingit
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tli> -  Tsimshian
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tsi> -  Tuscarora
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tus> -  Northern Tutchone
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ttm> -  Southern Tutchone
<http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tce>

These are the languages still spoken in Canada according to Ethnologue..
There is more then English French Italian and Rhaeto Romanic to this
wonderful country.
Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Pilotguy

body:
Seconded to what Jeff is saying here. I do believe if you click on "cite
this article" over on the left, you'll get a disclaimer that Wikipedia
shouldn't be used as a primary source for research as we are a tertiary
source (i.e. we get information from other sources) thus making things too
easy for them. :) With that in mind, teachers usually disallow encyclopedias
as sources for research, but of course Wikipedia is not specifically
mentioned...........

On 1/16/07, Mak <makwik at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry, the link doesn't seem to have made it, it's at
> http://www.sbl-site.org/Article.aspx?ArticleId=612
>
> On 1/16/07, Mak <makwik at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > An article I found really interesting was Wikipedia: Unreliable Source,
> > Useful Heuristic Tool from the Society of Biblical Literature, a very
> well
> > respected society of Biblical scholarship. It talks about Wikipedia as a
> > possible eventual good way to get really excellent information (a form
> of
> > Eventualism <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eventualism> if you will)
> and
> > that right now it's a good tool to use to find other sources, and to get
> > some basic vocabulary.
> >
> > I think this should be very encouraging to all those who have been
> > slogging away finding tons of sources for their articles. Not only does
> it
> > make people trust Wikipedia more, it also makes it a much more useful
> tool
> > for people who are doing deeper research.
> >
> > Makemi
> >
> > On 1/16/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think you covered the main points.
> > > I don't think it should be called a policy. All it really is, is an
> > > explanation. But that's just me.
> > >
> > > Mgm
> > >
> > >
> > > On 1/16/07, phoebe ayers < phoebe.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > > I received a message (below) from a librarian at a US high school
> who
> > > is
> > > > considering writing a policy for their students regarding the use of
> > > > Wikipedia in research papers. She asked for my input and whether I
> > > knew of
> > > > any similar policies in schools -- either middle and high schools or
> > > > colleges and universities. This:
> > > > http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/lists_archive/Humanist/v20/0080.html
> > > > is the kind of thing she's interested in  (this particular policy
> > > appears,
> > > > by the way, to be completely sensible -- the main flaws I found were
> > > they
> > > > missed the permanent link and citation features, and they called us
> > > "the
> > > > world's blog").
> > > >
> > > > I pointed her towards
> > > > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools_FAQ
> > > > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia
> > > > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Researching_with_Wikipedia,
> > > and
> > > > * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use
> > > >
> > > > which seem to be en:'s documentation on the subject of academic use.
> > > But
> > > > I'm
> > > > wondering if any of you:
> > > >
> > > > * know of such policies at specific institutions (and if so if you
> can
> > > > send
> > > > me a link)
> > > > * know of commentary on, or a list of, such policies (either from
> our
> > > > lists
> > > > & sites or other places)
> > > > * have comments about such policies and what should go into them.
> > > > * if any of you are librarians or professors, if you have answers
> for
> > > the
> > > > last question about how WP is handled at reference desks and in
> > > classes.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > > phoebe (brassratgirl)
> > > >
> > > > here's the message (with specific campus names taken out):
> > > >
> > > > >I am the head librarian at a college prep high school in
> California.
> > > We
> > > > are
> > > >
> > > > >considering writing a school policy regarding the use of Wikipedia
> in
> > > > >academic research. I am gathering as much information as I can from
> > > > >universities because I would like our policy and instruction to
> > > reflect
> > > > what
> > > > >our students will be met with once they leave us.
> > > > >
> > > > >  Does the University of California have a policy about the use of
> > > > Wikipedia or do professors to
> > > > >set guidelines for its use?
> > > > >
> > > > >  In your opinion, based on your experience at various
> universities,
> > > are
> > > > students allowed to cite it in academic research papers?
> > > > >
> > > > >  Do professors address it at all and how is it handled at the
> > > reference
> > > > desk at university libraries.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
Pilotguy
pilotguy.wikipedia at gmail.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pilotguy

http://pilotguy.wordpress.com


from_name: George Herbert

body:
On 1/16/07, Nina Stratton <ninaeliza at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a 40 (almost) year old black woman who dropped out of high school and
> never finished college. I'm also fundamentally opposed to "experts" running
> anything I have to do with. I can read, I can write, and I can learn. That's
> all I need and all I will ever need.
>
> I wish Citizendium well, but this latest bit of news comes as no surprise.
> We'll hear more.
>
> Nina

This is one of the hard problems - having "experts" tell us not to be
interested in a topic is really bad policy, but sometimes "how do we
organize this information" is a much harder problem, often requiring
professional help.

It seems like this was just an argument over organization or taxonomy,
not content.  But I haven't seen good detailed info on it yet...

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert at gmail.com


body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

>On 1/15/07, Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>> I don't see how. Copyright covers a specific tangible expression, not
>>
>>the underlying ideas contained within it. One can make a movie out of a
>>book and then have the book be in public domain while the movie remains
>>copyrighted, for example. I think the sort of IP protection you're
>>thinking of is more along the lines of trade secret or patent law, which
>>as far as I can tell don't apply here.
>>
>>
>That's why I'm mentioning the instructional videos and/or manuals as the
>tangible expressed bit of the magic. The written instructions to magic trick
>are copyrighted - no doubt.
>
Maybe.  Some of these tricks have been around longer than the magicians
want to believe.  That aside, the way in which the instructions are
written is copyright, but not the instructions themselves.  If there is
only one way of writing the instructions the copyright could be void.
That's the merger principle.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out

body:
True, but it's an English-only version of something that didn't exist
before.

shi zhao wrote:
> wikiseek only English :(
>
> 2007/1/17, David Strauss <david at fourkitchens.com>:
>> I don't understand the critical reaction to Wikiseek. No one here would
>> criticize a new search engine that indexed the whole web *including*
>> Wikipedia, so there's no reason to criticize a search engine that
>> indexes *only* Wikipedia.
>>
>> I also don't see how Wikiseek could hurt Wikipedia. If anything, more
>> avenues to Wikipedia will *increase* the number of readers and editors.
>>
>> And in the event that Wikiseek is successful, the Foundation might even
>> receive some sizable contributions.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out

body:
True, but it's an English-only version of something that didn't exist
before.

shi zhao wrote:
> wikiseek only English :(
>
> 2007/1/17, David Strauss <david at fourkitchens.com>:
>> I don't understand the critical reaction to Wikiseek. No one here would
>> criticize a new search engine that indexed the whole web *including*
>> Wikipedia, so there's no reason to criticize a search engine that
>> indexes *only* Wikipedia.
>>
>> I also don't see how Wikiseek could hurt Wikipedia. If anything, more
>> avenues to Wikipedia will *increase* the number of readers and editors.
>>
>> And in the event that Wikiseek is successful, the Foundation might even
>> receive some sizable contributions.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out

body:
True, but it's an English-only version of something that didn't exist
before.

shi zhao wrote:
> wikiseek only English :(
>
> 2007/1/17, David Strauss <david at fourkitchens.com>:
>> I don't understand the critical reaction to Wikiseek. No one here would
>> criticize a new search engine that indexed the whole web *including*
>> Wikipedia, so there's no reason to criticize a search engine that
>> indexes *only* Wikipedia.
>>
>> I also don't see how Wikiseek could hurt Wikipedia. If anything, more
>> avenues to Wikipedia will *increase* the number of readers and editors.
>>
>> And in the event that Wikiseek is successful, the Foundation might even
>> receive some sizable contributions.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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from_name: Rory Stolzenberg

body:
On 1/16/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Michael Bimmler schreef:
> > On 1/16/07, Nicholas Moreau <nicholasmoreau at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> * Is it bilingual? : To be discussed. The Swiss mailing list is
> >> quatrolingual. but let's concentrate on discussing stuff in English
> >> first, as only two members of over 100 are unilingual Francophones.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > For the record: Although we certainly answer and take note of french,
> > italian or rhaeto-romanic posts, we use English as "working language"
> > for internal communication, be it the public wikimediach-l or internal
> > private mailinglists. There are some german threads from time to time,
> > but the mailinglist is de facto english.
> >
> > Michael
> Hoi,
> Western Abnaki <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:abe> -  Algonquin
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:alq> -  American Sign Language
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ase> -  Assiniboine
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:asb> -  Atikamekw
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:atj> -  Babine
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:bcr> -  Beaver
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:bea> -  Bella Coola
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:blc> -  Blackfoot
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:bla> -  Carrier
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crx> -  Southern Carrier
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:caf> -  Cayuga
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:cay> -  Chilcotin
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:clc> -  Chinook Wawa
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:chn> -  Chipewyan
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:chp> -  Comox
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:coo> -  Moose Cree
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crm> -  Plains Cree
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crk> -  Swampy Cree
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:csw> -  Woods Cree
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:cwd> -  Dakota
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:dak> -  Dogrib
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:dgr> -  Northern East Cree
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crl> -  Southern East Cree
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crj> -  English
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:eng> -  French
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:fra> -  Hutterite German
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:geh> -  Pennsylvania German
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:pdc> -  Gitxsan
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:git> -  Gwich'in
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:gwi> -  Northern Haida
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:hdn> -  Southern Haida
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:hax> -  Haisla
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:has> -  Halkomelem
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:hur> -  Han
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:haa> -  Heiltsuk
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:hei> -  Eastern Canadian Inuktitut
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ike> -  Western Canadian Inuktitut
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ikt> -  North Alaskan Inupiatun
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:esi> -  Kaska
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:kkz> -  Kutenai
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:kut> -  Kwakiutl
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:kwk> -  Lakota
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:lkt> -  Lillooet
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:lil> -  Malecite-Passamaquoddy
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:pqm> -  Maritime Sign Language
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:nsr> -  Michif
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:crg> -  Micmac
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:mic> -  Mohawk
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:moh> -  Montagnais
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:moe> -  Munsee
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:umu> -  Naskapi
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:nsk> -  Nisga'a
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ncg> -  Nootka
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:noo> -  Central Ojibwa
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojc> -  Eastern Ojibwa
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojg> -  Northwestern Ojibwa
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojb> -  Severn Ojibwa
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojs> -  Western Ojibwa
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ojw> -  Okanagan
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:oka> -  Oneida
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:one> -  Onondaga
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ono> -  Ottawa
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:otw> -  Plautdietsch
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:pdt> -  Potawatomi
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:pot> -  Quebec Sign Language
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:fcs> -  Straits Salish
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:str> -  Sarsi
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:srs> -  Sechelt
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:sec> -  Sekani
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:sek> -  Seneca
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:see> -  Shuswap
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:shs> -  North Slavey
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:scs> -  South Slavey
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:xsl> -  Squamish
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:squ> -  Stoney
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:sto> -  Tagish
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tgx> -  Tahltan
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tht> -  Upper Tanana
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tau> -  Thompson
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:thp> -  Tlingit
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tli> -  Tsimshian
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tsi> -  Tuscarora
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tus> -  Northern Tutchone
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:ttm> -  Southern Tutchone
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:tce>
>
> These are the languages still spoken in Canada according to Ethnologue..
> There is more then English French Italian and Rhaeto Romanic to this
> wonderful country.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM

I think Michael was talking about the Swiss list (English, French, Italian
and Rhaeto Romanic are the official languages of Switzerland).


body:
On 1/16/07, Stan Shebs <stanshebs at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Geez, one screenful and I'm bored out of my skull. It could use a
> section that explains why anybody should care - the only place I've ever
> heard about any of this is on the mailing list, it simply doesn't come
> up in either my regular editing or admin activities.
>
> Stan

Wikipedia is now in the absurd position as the source that says stories of
how the Bush family fortune coming from the Nazis started with a group
aligned with Holocaust denial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Information_Research

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Loftus

http://www.john-loftus.com/bush_nazi_scandal.asp

nobs01


from_name: geni

body:
On 1/16/07, Sage Ross <ragesoss+wikipedia at gmail.com> wrote:
> Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:
>
> >http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=
>

Oh is she still sending that out? It surfaced back in december on her blog:

http://www.freshmonsters.com/kalital/archives/2006/11/racism_and_sexism_at_citizendi.shtml

> I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
> who've been participating in Citizendium.

I've been watching it (and sort of trying to stop them from adopting
NC lisences but I'm not to concernded).

> This persistence of this
> kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
> probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
> would be unfortunate in my view).

I doubt it. To me it loks like one person went looking for a fight and
managed to find one. I still think "wait and see" is the best aproach
to Citizendium.

--
geni


from_name: Platonides

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
> Can we do temporary edits to the template to make it semi-functional
> (only a couple of switchs), or it can't be touched until you finish
> investigating?

It's 5 days since this reminding, a week since the slowness. We're
missing the
funcionality it provided. So, is there any reason blocking from
restoring it?
(if so, why hasn't been resolved yet? :D)

There was a 'policy' of users don't needing to worry about server issues
('if there aren't enough servers, we will add more'), but here there is
a collision.
As any edit to the template will affect a lot of pages, i'm also
reluctant of doing 'lighter' versions, as changes+reverts would probably
overload even more. Who should we send versions for approval?


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 16/01/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/16/07, Sage Ross <ragesoss+wikipedia at gmail.com> wrote:

> I doubt it. To me it loks like one person went looking for a fight and
> managed to find one. I still think "wait and see" is the best aproach
> to Citizendium.

Indeed. I haven't actually managed to write anything there *blush* but
it's an active project with a small but enthusiastic community working
on it and public access planned to be started this month.

Citizendium aims to outdo Wikipedia, but I wouldn't say it's an enemy
or competitor. There's got to be more than one way to do this "free
encyclopedia" thing. I fear in ten years time the proprietary general
encyclopedias will have insignificant market share, and if there's a
really good encyclopedia it's going to have to be Wikipedia or a fork
of it. But if it's a fork, at least there's a good one.

'Open content' itself is still unusual and remarkable in itself.
Citizendium is working with great focus to get traction and
credibility inside academia itself, which will further the reach of
the concept.

And the more open content in the world, and the more well-known open
content resources in the world, the better for us and everyone.

- d.


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Reliable sources

body:
All this is fascinating, but the reason I cited the DRV was really because
it was the catalyst that made me post this to the list. I'd like hearing
reactions to my original email.

Mgm

On 1/16/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/16/07, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I disagree. This was an AfD where no new arguments were made from the
> > previous AfD. Yes, consensus can change. But consensus is also not a
> > random phenomenon based on who shows up on a given day. In the
> > absence of any new claims about the article, it would have been
> > wholly reasonable to take into account the previous overwhelming
> > decision to keep the article,
>
> Seeing as that was in 2005 and we have somewhat tightened up on
> sourceing requirements since them it is hardly unepected that things
> will change.
>
> >to note the egregiously poor reasoning
> > of some of the votes ("not every game by Nintendo is notable," as one
> > person argued - a position that is so far removed from our existing
> > practice as to be unusable.
> >
> The comparison is flawed since Nintendo are a multi billion dollar
> company (there probably are games without article in any case due to
> the various times large numbers of low quality games were put on one
> cartridge)
>
> A better one might be "every painting by Picasso" "every compound
> featured in "Journal of Organic Chemistry"
>
> If Dayfree Press is of some signifcance surely any referenced info on
> "Able and Baker" could be merged into it since the article is hardly
> overloaded with information or citations.
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sage Ross [mailto:ragesoss+wikipedia at gmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 11:48 AM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
>
>Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:
>
>http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=
>
>The whole thing is worth reading, but the gist of it is this paragraph:
>
>"I am withdrawing from Citizendium because of the racist and sexist
>policy put in place by Larry Sanger, who claims that the disciplines
>of Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies do not belong in the list of top
>level categories in Citizendium, or as individual categories at all.
>Sanger has unilaterally decided that all race and gender topics
>should be split up under traditional disciplinary headings, so that
>there will be, for example, a sub-group of "African American
>Literature," and "African American History," but no category -- at
>any level -- in African American studies, and he embraces the same
>tactic of fragmenting other Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies.  The
>fact that his broad strokes of exclusion primarily effect women and
>minority scholars does not seem to matter to him."
>
>I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
>who've been participating in Citizendium.  This persistence of this
>kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
>probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
>would be unfortunate in my view).
>
>-Sage

Kali Tal's blog postings:

http://www.freshmonsters.com/kalital/archives/2006/11/racism_and_sexism_at_citizendi.shtml
http://www.freshmonsters.com/kalital/archives/2006/11/update_on_racism_and_sexism_at.shtml

I am not a participant, but have read her blog postings regarding this matter, and am well acquainted with Larry. Larry insisted  that rather than fall under Ethnic studies, African-American Literature would fall under American Literature. Tal claims that enough knowledge has been generated by Ethic and Gender Studies to justify a separate expert review system for subjects which could fall within their purview.

She is rather like Larry, does not suffer fools....

I don't think this incident is particularly significant. We would have trouble with her here if she was or is an active editor. Like Larry, she knows the answers, learned them as a sophomore.

Fred


from_name: Rob Church

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
On 16/01/07, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> I can't say words without having some God-given "policy" read into them.

The English Wikipedia took comments you and I made about being
sensible and not worrying *too much* in a previous thread, and turned
it into a guideline;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance.

I assume, or hope, that these people still know when to suspend
guidelines. I think most of them got it.

> That doesn't mean that AN ACTUAL PROBLEM, WHEN DISCOVERED, SHOULD BE
> IGNORED.

To quote: "Adopt common sense, of course. If it's plain something
could cause drastic problems, hold fire and check... -- (me)" -- this
qualifies as causing problems...

...also, ""Policy" shouldn't really concern itself with server load
except in the most extreme of cases; -- (brion)" -- and I imagine this
qualifies as an extreme case.

> Try to use some common sense, people.

Fervent agreement!

> There's no "policy" here. Just *sense*.

If someone tells me that the English Wikipedia's horrible habit of
taking things as written, as a suicide pact...has crept over to our
end...I'm not sure if I'd be able to grok that.

Rob Church


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 07:47:40PM +0100, Platonides wrote:
>
> There was a 'policy' of users don't needing to worry about server issues
> ('if there aren't enough servers, we will add more'), but here there is
> a collision.

That was before wiki markup became a real programming language. Now it's
possible to write templates that require a substantial amount of time to
render (20s for the interproject template you're asking about).

As every programmer, a wiki template programmer has to take care of the
efficiency of his code. Adding servers will not improve the rendering
time of slow templates.

Regards,

	jeluf


from_name: Carlos

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On 1/16/07, Jens Frank <jf at mormo.org> wrote:
>
>>That was before wiki markup became a real programming language. Now it's
>>possible to write templates that require a substantial amount of time to
>>render (20s for the interproject template you're asking about).
>>
>>As every programmer, a wiki template programmer has to take care of the
>>efficiency of his code. Adding servers will not improve the rendering
>>time of slow templates.
>
> Since there is still no (real) looping constructs, all wikitext
> execution should still be roughly linearly proportional to input size,
> or am I missing something?

If I recall correctly (people in this list know better) template
inclusion and ParserFunction operations are done by repeteadly
generating new strings. I suppose that as the strings get larger these
operations get slower... maybe that's the cause of the slowness (maybe not).

--


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
On 1/16/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Bimmler schreef:
> > On 1/16/07, Nicholas Moreau <nicholasmoreau at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> * Is it bilingual? : To be discussed. The Swiss mailing list is
> >> quatrolingual. but let's concentrate on discussing stuff in English
> >> first, as only two members of over 100 are unilingual Francophones.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > For the record: Although we certainly answer and take note of french,
> > italian or rhaeto-romanic posts, we use English as "working language"
> > for internal communication, be it the public wikimediach-l or internal
> > private mailinglists. There are some german threads from time to time,
> > but the mailinglist is de facto english.
> >
> > Michael
> Hoi,
> Western Abnaki <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:abe> -  Algonquin
> <http://www.omegawiki.org/Portal:alq> -  American Sign Language
>[...]
>
> These are the languages still spoken in Canada according to Ethnologue..
> There is more then English French Italian and Rhaeto Romanic to this
> wonderful country.

I think he was talking about the Swiss list...

Alfio


references:
<mailman.9239.1168977506.11809.wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
	<45AD689E.10345.AE6C7ACA@dan.tobias.name>
	<0ABBB41D-AF92-4329-A9E4-B6F632788AEB@gmail.com>

body:
On 1/16/07, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:06 AM, Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
>
> > On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't
> >> surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an
> >> encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of
> >> the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what
> >> mainstream academic thought is.
> >
> > Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and
> > deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.
>
> To be clear, I'm fine with that. It's a respectable viewpoint.
>
> But it's a damn stupid viewpoint for anyone looking to write an
> encyclopedia that favors "experts." The experts go for that right
> now. If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should
> work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts
> if he's going to dismiss the experts.
>
> -Phil

The problem with experts is that, outside the hard sciences and
engineering, you get so many opinions per expert, most of them
mutually contradictory at some level...

(ducking to avoid the brie and wine my humanist colleagues are
launching in my general direction)

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert at gmail.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
Brion Vibber escribi?:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Platonides wrote:
>>> Can we do temporary edits to the template to make it semi-functional
>>> (only a couple of switchs), or it can't be touched until you finish
>>> investigating?
>> It's 5 days since this reminding, a week since the slowness. We're
>> missing the
>> funcionality it provided. So, is there any reason blocking from
>> restoring it?
>> (if so, why hasn't been resolved yet? :D)
>>
>> There was a 'policy' of users don't needing to worry about server issues
>> ('if there aren't enough servers, we will add more'), but here there is
>> a collision.
>
> Jesus Christ!
>
> I can't say words without having some God-given "policy" read into them.
I quote me: "here there is a collision" between this general guidelines
and this case.

> I made a general recommendation not to go running around saying THE SKY
> IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING about templates BASED ON SUPPOSITION AND
> PARANOIA.
>
> That doesn't mean that AN ACTUAL PROBLEM, WHEN DISCOVERED, SHOULD BE
> IGNORED.

> WHEN THERE IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM, THEN IT MATTERS.
> IN THIS CASE THERE IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM.
Damn, if i though that it didn't matter, i would have just reverted it,
or even duplicated, not asking for the opinion of THOSE WHO KNOW.

> UNTIL THAT GETS FIXED UP ON THE SOFTWARE END,
Of course, this is what we want: it being solved :D

Brion...
> THE PARTICULAR TEMPLATE
> WHICH IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM, TAKING 10-20 SECONDS TO
> RENDER, MUST NOT BE WIDELY USED.

...and JeLuF
"As every programmer, a wiki template programmer has to take care of the
efficiency of his code."

I refered to this before.
How is the efficiency of the templates measured? Apart of just trying it
and waiting to see if servers go down :P

Diclaimer:
I didn't code it, i didn't even watched its source until today. I don't
say it to be a good style. It isn't easy to completely understand. I
have even found what seems to be bugs.
So don't eat me!

I know there's a problem. What is being done about it? What can we do to
help with it? How do we do it?


subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Platonides wrote:
>
>>>Can we do temporary edits to the template to make it semi-functional
>>>(only a couple of switchs), or it can't be touched until you finish
>>>investigating?
>>
>>It's 5 days since this reminding, a week since the slowness. We're
>>missing the
>>funcionality it provided. So, is there any reason blocking from
>>restoring it?
>>(if so, why hasn't been resolved yet? :D)
>>
>>There was a 'policy' of users don't needing to worry about server issues
>>('if there aren't enough servers, we will add more'), but here there is
>>a collision.
>
> Jesus Christ!
>
> I can't say words without having some God-given "policy" read into them.
>
> I made a general recommendation not to go running around saying THE SKY
> IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING about templates BASED ON SUPPOSITION AND
> PARANOIA.

Now we are confused, running in circles crashing into each other and
taking decisions based on suppositions, because...

> That doesn't mean that AN ACTUAL PROBLEM, WHEN DISCOVERED, SHOULD BE
> IGNORED.
>
> WHEN THERE IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM, THEN IT MATTERS.
>
> IN THIS CASE THERE IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM.
>
> UNTIL THAT GETS FIXED UP ON THE SOFTWARE END, THE PARTICULAR TEMPLATE
> WHICH IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM, TAKING 10-20 SECONDS TO
> RENDER, MUST NOT BE WIDELY USED.

...what we want to know is very simple:

a) are you going to change mediawiki so it works, or
b) should we forget it and make a new one (and in that case, do you know
what construction exactly should be avoided, or should we guess and try
at Special:Expandtemplate), or
c) you don't yet know?
d) [other option I didn't think about]

And people are already implementing different solutions that they think
are best, multiplying different templates, while others are waiting for
that template to be functional again, and lots of articles meanwhile
lose their interproject links... *because nobody knows what to expect*.

So... could any of you please give us some information about this
specific problem, so people at eswiki can make an informed decision?

> Try to use some common sense, people.
>
> There's no "policy" here. Just *sense*.

'Policy' was between quotes and Platonides is not a native speaker.
Probably he meant something like 'rule' (probably not, but I understood
it that way), and he explicitly said that it doesn't apply here.
es:WP:PBF :-P

Greetings.
--


from_name: Guy Chapman aka JzG

body:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:48:30 -0500, "Sage Ross"
<ragesoss+wikipedia at gmail.com> wrote:

>Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:

Could never happen on Wikipedia.  Deleting a list or category of
Jewish Anything is "removing people's cultural identity" and speedily
overturned.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


body:
On 1/16/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> You seem to know more about it.
> Are you saying her accusations are unfounded?
>
> Mgm
>

No idea. It's not an area I know much about since other than a few
skirmishes it isn't something that chemistry has much in the way of
dealings with.

However judging by Kali's actions she was looking for a fight and
found it. Larry's model is very top down so conflict of this type was
very likely to happen at some point.

--
geni


subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Carlos wrote:
>
>>...what we want to know is very simple:
>>
>>a) are you going to change mediawiki so it works, or
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>>b) should we forget it and make a new one (and in that case, do you know
>>what construction exactly should be avoided, or should we guess and try
>>at Special:Expandtemplate), or
>
>
> Do that anyway; the template's horribly ugly!

Thanks! :)
--


body:
On 1/16/07, Mathias Schindler <mathias.schindler at gmail.com> wrote:
> CZ more or less completely relies on GFDL-licensed text. Adopting an
> NC license would be the easiest way of shooting themselves in the
> foot. And in the head. So, I am not concerned, too :)
>
> Mathias

Eh it was only for images and completely new stuff so not imposible
but eh it would be a pain if we couldn't use some nice images they
had. Oh well.
--
geni


body:
I think you covered the main points.
I don't think it should be called a policy. All it really is, is an
explanation. But that's just me.

Mgm

On 1/16/07, phoebe ayers <phoebe.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I received a message (below) from a librarian at a US high school who is
> considering writing a policy for their students regarding the use of
> Wikipedia in research papers. She asked for my input and whether I knew of
> any similar policies in schools -- either middle and high schools or
> colleges and universities. This:
> http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/lists_archive/Humanist/v20/0080.html
> is the kind of thing she's interested in  (this particular policy appears,
> by the way, to be completely sensible -- the main flaws I found were they
> missed the permanent link and citation features, and they called us "the
> world's blog").
>
> I pointed her towards
> * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools_FAQ
> * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia
> * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Researching_with_Wikipedia, and
> * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use
>
> which seem to be en:'s documentation on the subject of academic use. But
> I'm
> wondering if any of you:
>
> * know of such policies at specific institutions (and if so if you can
> send
> me a link)
> * know of commentary on, or a list of, such policies (either from our
> lists
> & sites or other places)
> * have comments about such policies and what should go into them.
> * if any of you are librarians or professors, if you have answers for the
> last question about how WP is handled at reference desks and in classes.
>
> Thanks!
> phoebe (brassratgirl)
>
> here's the message (with specific campus names taken out):
>
> >I am the head librarian at a college prep high school in California. We
> are
>
> >considering writing a school policy regarding the use of Wikipedia in
> >academic research. I am gathering as much information as I can from
> >universities because I would like our policy and instruction to reflect
> what
> >our students will be met with once they leave us.
> >
> >  Does the University of California have a policy about the use of
> Wikipedia or do professors to
> >set guidelines for its use?
> >
> >  In your opinion, based on your experience at various universities, are
> students allowed to cite it in academic research papers?
> >
> >  Do professors address it at all and how is it handled at the reference
> desk at university libraries.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Moving the Main Page

body:
Occam's Razor, Llama.
For all we know Oskar could have multiple personalities.
That could easily explain his use of the word 'we' in this context.

Mgm ;)

On 1/16/07, PeruvianLlama <peruvianllama at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Is there any reason what so ever to move the main page, except "policy
> > for policys sake"? Because that argument doesn't fly with us.
> >
> Aha! So you admit it, there is an "us"! Anti-Main-Page-Moving Cabal!
> Cabaaaaaal!!
>
> *ducks*
>
> - PeruvianLlama
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Thomas Dalton

body:
> Eh it was only for images and completely new stuff so not imposible
> but eh it would be a pain if we couldn't use some nice images they
> had. Oh well.

Having different bits under different licenses sounds like a recipe
for disaster...


body:
You seem to know more about it.
Are you saying her accusations are unfounded?

Mgm

On 1/16/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/16/07, Sage Ross <ragesoss+wikipedia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:
> >
> > >
> http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=
> >
>
> Oh is she still sending that out? It surfaced back in december on her
> blog:
>
>
> http://www.freshmonsters.com/kalital/archives/2006/11/racism_and_sexism_at_citizendi.shtml
>
>
>
> > I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
> > who've been participating in Citizendium.
>
> I've been watching it (and sort of trying to stop them from adopting
> NC lisences but I'm not to concernded).
>
> > This persistence of this
> > kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
> > probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
> > would be unfortunate in my view).
>
> I doubt it. To me it loks like one person went looking for a fight and
> managed to find one. I still think "wait and see" is the best aproach
> to Citizendium.
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Board meeting in Rotterdam later this week

body:
Marco Chiesa wrote:

>David Strauss wrote:
>
>
>>While I think fair use media is more integral to the English Wikipedia's
>>content than you do, I agree with your reasoning. Whether or not we
>>allow fair use, non-commercial media is unjustified.
>>
>>Can everyone here agree that non-commercial media is not a *substitute*
>>for fair-use media?
>>
>>
>To be honest, I agree only to a certain point. Fair use means using a
>copyrighted media without asking the permission to the owner, with the
>justification that there's not much else you can do.
>
That may be a part of Wikipedia policy relating to fair use, but it is
not a part of the law of fair use.

Ec


body:
Andrew Gray wrote:

> In theory, we require that material used under fair-use has full
>
>source and copyright details. It would seems sensible to interpret
>this to cover including a reference to any non-free license or
>conditions, of whatever form, if there is one.
>
Requiring this is important to the extent to whatever extent we may
allow fair use.  With this in hand a potential downstream user has the
tools for determining whether his own use would qualify as fair use.

Ec


from_name: Mathias Schindler

body:
On 1/16/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote

> I've been watching it (and sort of trying to stop them from adopting
> NC lisences but I'm not to concernded).

CZ more or less completely relies on GFDL-licensed text. Adopting an
NC license would be the easiest way of shooting themselves in the
foot. And in the head. So, I am not concerned, too :)

Mathias


body:
On 1/16/07, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Eh it was only for images and completely new stuff so not imposible
> > but eh it would be a pain if we couldn't use some nice images they
> > had. Oh well.
>
> Having different bits under different licenses sounds like a recipe
> for disaster...
>

We manage with images. As long as you have a few people who never stop
thinking about copyright it can be done.

--
geni


body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

>The point of ND is that it does not allow to change
>material in such a way that they do not accurately reflect what was
>originally there. When for editorial reasons a picture is changed,
>typically there does not need to be a problem. One reason why I would
>insist on ND is to prevent the barbarism of people changing the colours
>in art.
>
While it is important to have an accurate copy of original art as a
reference point, I have no problem when a user (in the spirit of Andy
Warhol) plays with the colours of a work of art.  Sometimes a work of
art can be studied better by electronically enhancing certain parts of
the spectrum.

Also, not all scans are the same.  Poor scanning equipment and software
can itself generate distortions of coulour.

Ec


body:
On 1/16/07, ? Firefoxman <enwpmail at gmail.com> wrote:
> What is Citizendium?
>

Larry Sanger's fifth yet-to-be-launched attempt to let someone else
write an encyclopedia.

If it is a success, I will call myself co-founder of it :)

Mathias


from_name: thomasasta at gmx.net

subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out

body:
Englisch:
http://www.wikiseek.com/index.php

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chip.de%2Fnews%2Fc1_news_23826563.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Original:
http://www.chip.de/news/c1_news_23826563.html

Plugin:
http://www.wikiseek.com/tools/search_plugin

WikiSeek: Erweiterte Wikipedia-Suchmachine

WikiSeek: Sucht in Wikipedia und verlinkten Seiten

  Das Startup-Unternehmen SearchMe hat WikiSeek (wikiseek.com) als Beta-Version gestartet. Dabei handelt es sich um eine Internet-Suchmaschine, die Wikipedia und mit dem Online-Lexikon verlinkte Webseiten durchsucht.

Die Suchergebnisse enthalten Tags, die Informationen der unterschiedlichen Wikipedia-Kategorien tragen. Dadurch soll der Nutzer schneller an seine Suchergebnisse kommen.

Zudem kann der Nutzer die Suchmaschine in den Firefox ab Version 1.5 sowie Internet Explorer 7 per Mausklick auf "Install the Plug-in" einbinden. Das entsprechende Plug-in steht unter http://www.wikiseek.com/tools/search_plugin zur Verf?gung.

The majority of the revenue generated by Wikiseek advertising
is donated to the Wikimedia Foundation.

Earn money for Wikimedia Foundation: Promote Wikiseek

About Wikiseek
The contents of Wikiseek are restricted to Wikipedia pages and only those sites which are referenced within Wikipedia, making it an authoritative source of information less subject to spam and SEO schemes.

Wikiseek utilizes Searchme's category refinement technology, providing suggested search refinements based on user tagging and categorization within Wikipedia, making results more relevant than conventional search engines.

http://wikiseek.wikia.com/wiki/Wikiseek_Community_Wiki

--
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subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out


body:
> We manage with images. As long as you have a few people who never stop
> thinking about copyright it can be done.

Do we? All images have to be released under the GFDL, or something
compatible with it (ie. lets you do everything the GFDL lets you do,
and more - hardly comparable to some parts of a site being under a NC
license, and the rest under GFDL). (NB: Fair use is not a license.)


from_name: John Q.

subject: [Wikitech-l] regex vandal blocking tools

body:
Hi everyone,

We developed some vandal control tools over at Wikia that we thought
people might be able to use/expand on. We've had these running on the
site for the last 1-2 months and they've been working well for us.
Basically, we made some special pages where you can specify regex
expressions to block usernames, ips, and article spam. The blocks can
have time limits that you can set to expire or run forever. For our
purposes these had to work across multiple wikis. There's a README in
each directory and documentation included in both html and wiki exported
xml format that explains the function and includes SQL for creating the
appropriate tables.

http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/RegexBlock/

http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/SpamRegex/

this one is basically a common file needed for the two above.

http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/SimplifiedRegex/

Thanks,
John Q.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Use binary to represent varchar rather than UTF8

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Andrew Dunbar wrote:
> 1) Does mysql support UCS-2, UTF-8, or UCS-4 beyond the BMP?

UCS-2 does not include anything beyond the BMP, by definition.

(Further, UCS-2 is supported only for storage; connections to the server
must use another charset such as UTF-8, and the conversion on the server
end is indeed limited to UCS-2. While it is possible as of my testing
last year to store UTF-16 data in UCS-2 fields by communicating with the
server using invalid pseudo-UTF-8 which encodes the UTF-16 surrogate
pair halves as separate UTF-8 characters, this would be very fragile and
likely to lead to bugs, interoperability problems, and data corruption.)

UTF-8 support in MySQL is limited to 3-byte characters, which
corresponds to the BMP.

UCS-4 is not supported at all.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFrdZvwRnhpk1wk44RAriBAJ0RV54gepEz9+Wx2GRyvRZrz+SVnQCeLDem
jtMObBzFrtZIeKfQQorT9yc=
=vAh6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Daniel R. Tobias

body:
On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:

> It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't
> surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an
> encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of
> the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what
> mainstream academic thought is.

Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and
deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


from_name: "Thomas Müller"

subject: [Foundation-l] pro & con Wikiseek

body:
Hi,
I like the idea of wikiseek, to index only wikipedia content and the urls edited in wikipedia as weblinks.

This was as well the concept develped here on the net.
So it is a "w+1" hop" concept.

Contra: The problem is,
- that the database is still not open (where to download?)
- the search box of wikipedia already is doing the function
- it is a advertising spin-off of wikipedia ?, which is introducing advertising through the backdoor into wikipedia.
- Is this a Jimmy engine ? or just hosted at wikipedia?
- quote:, "of course i am sad that it is a company rather than an open source project" - so the spin-of is taking a distance to the open source approace of the coding and the open source approach of the database,
- searching wikiseek will found wikipedia? this is not the way to go, as we can found wikipedia directly, all other is oeconomic corruption of an encyclopaedie? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCPA
- Searchme was co-founded by Randy Adams, CEO, and John Holland, CMO. The Company received initial funding from Sequoia Capital, so nothing related to the goals of Jimmy?
- not a java engine
- this project is disturbing the community, as no one knows the network and relationships for the collaboration from whom to whom.
- wiki goes oeconomic?
- if it is not open source, why then not using google.
- wikiseek is violating the GPL licence of wikipedia, as users give the urls reviewed by hand to wikipedia as  well in licence of GPL. Any Bibliographic index has a copyright, and this is GPL for the external lists of weburls to each article, as the url is not just an url, but a content reference of the article. As the database of wikiseek is using and summarizing them, and it is not a GPL database of wikisek, this is a licence conflict.

Well, the draft of this search engine proposal is good, but not workable on the market, as any wikipedia has a search box for the works and as well you get the external links in the acticle after you have read it.

any comments? ;-)

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 23:37:26 +0100

> Englisch:
> http://www.wikiseek.com/index.php
> http://wikiseek.wikia.com/wiki/Wikiseek_Community_Wiki

Wikiseek is a new way to search Wikipedia. Wikiseek searches only Wikipedia and external Wikipedia links. Because these links are selected by the Wikipedia community, Wikiseek search results are likely to return more relevant results for many searches.

This Wikiseek Community Wiki is hosted by Wikia but Wikiseek is an independent project with no affiliation with Wikia or Wikipedia.

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subject: [Foundation-l] pro & con Wikiseek


from_name: Phil Sandifer

body:
On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:06 AM, Daniel R. Tobias wrote:

> On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't
>> surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an
>> encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of
>> the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what
>> mainstream academic thought is.
>
> Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and
> deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.

To be clear, I'm fine with that. It's a respectable viewpoint.

But it's a damn stupid viewpoint for anyone looking to write an
encyclopedia that favors "experts." The experts go for that right
now. If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should
work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts
if he's going to dismiss the experts.

-Phil


from_name: geni

body:
On 1/16/07, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton at gmail.com> wrote:
> > We manage with images. As long as you have a few people who never stop
> > thinking about copyright it can be done.
>
> Do we?

For the most part. On a good day

>All images have to be released under the GFDL, or something
> compatible with it (ie. lets you do everything the GFDL lets you do,
> and more - hardly comparable to some parts of a site being under a NC
> license, and the rest under GFDL). (NB: Fair use is not a license.)
>

False the GFDL lets you release derivative images under the GFDL. Free
art, CC-by-SA, CeCILL, GPL, and LGPL ( I really don't understand how
images count as source code but that isn't my problem) wont let you
release derivatives under the GFDL
--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] editorial oversight, re: afd, fac, etc.

body:
On 16 Jan 2007 at 15:03, " ? Firefoxman " <enwpmail at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dan, your client is breaking the threads in gmail.

An offense almost as bad as top-posting and fullquoting.  But, like
that other Dan, I think I'm commiting it too; I get this list in
digest form, and so the "In-reply-to" reference is undoubtedly to the
digest rather than the specific message in it I'm replying to, to
which I don't have any access to its full headers.

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2007-01-17

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

This is MediaWiki version 1.10alpha (r19370).
Reading tests from "maintenance/parserTests.txt"...

Reading tests from "extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...

Reading tests from "extensions/Poem/poemParserTests.txt"...

  19 still FAILING test(s) :(
      * TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)
      * TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)
      * TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)
      * TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)
      * BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled
      * TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)
      * TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)
      * TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)
      * TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)
      * TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)
      * TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting
      * TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold
      * TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line
      * TODO: dt/dd/dl test
      * TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment
      * TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.
      * TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.
      * TODO: Don't fall for the self-closing div
      * TODO: Always escape literal '>' in output, not just after '<'
Passed 484 of 503 tests (96.22%)... FAILED!


from_name: Cormac Lawler

body:
On 1/16/07, Brian Salter-Duke <b_duke at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 05:44:33PM +1100, Keith Old wrote:
> > G'day folks,
> >
> > Researchers at IBM's Visual Comnunication Lab have published an interesting
> > paper called "Talk Before You Type: Coordination in Wikipedia" at the 40th
> > Hawaii International Conference on System Sciences held recently.
> >
> > http://www.hicss.hawaii.edu/hicss_40/decisionbp/03_04_07.pdf
>
> This is indeed an interesting study. I wonder - do we have a page that
> lists all citable academic studies of wikipedia published in journals or
> conference proceedings? Of course it would not be in article space. It
> would be a usefull help for anyone writing an article on wikipedia. If
> we do not have such a page, should we? and what do we call it?
> [[Wikipedia:Academic studies on Wikipedia]]?

Hi Brian,

there is <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_in_academic_studies>,
which is, as it says, "incomplete". As for studies
including-but-not-limited-to Wikipedia, you can see
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Research_Bibliography>, as well
as an excellent bibliography, using Wikindx (and linked to from that
page), but apparently down for some time now. I'm including Jakob Voss
in this mail, to see if he can tell us more - generally, that would be
my first stop - no question..

Cheers,
Cormac


subject: [WikiEN-l] Could we tone down the language a bit?

body:
Marc Riddell wrote:

>>Still, some amateurs are careful in their research, and some
>>professionals do not feel offended when their assumptions are questioned.
>>
>>
>The only assumption I ever make in my work is: if the person is experiencing
>pain it is a signal there is something wrong. My role is to locate the
>source of that pain and try to eliminate it. If a person presents with a
>knife sticking out of their belly, or a bone is protruding though their
>skin, the diagnosis of the source is rather simple. In Mental Health (MH)
>which needs to be distinguished from Emotional Health (EH) [another subject
>for another time] the search for the source can (and is) much more complex.
>It also carries with it a factor not present in most med/surg conditions ?
>cultural stigma.
>
I agree that it's a subject for another time, but in the public mind the
two tend to be indistinguishable.

>?Assumption? is a slippery word in my field. In the field of physics, if I
>drop an object from a height in our atmosphere, one can reasonably assume it
>is going to end up on the ground. This ?assumption? becomes a fact by doing
>it. And, there are zillions of incidents in the past that can be pointed to
>as verification of that fact. ?Facts? (such as they are) in the field of
>Clinical Psychology are based on countless case histories of persons who
>have presented with similar symptoms and behaviors, and have responded well
>to similar therapies resulting in wellness. And this is not absolute. The
>one vital ingredient necessary to consider here are the instincts the
>professional caregiver.
>
"Assumption" is a slippery word in any field.  "Hypothesis" is a better
word.  The "fact" will be what is empirically observed in a single
experiment.  Repeated results with identical facts will aubstantiate the
hypothesis.  I don't know that you can validly say that facts are "based
on" case histories.  To me they would be the separate incidents that go
into making up a case history.  The accumulated experience of multiple
case histories becomes the fodder for revised hypotheses.

Pharmacology alone is seldom a cure, but it can calm a crisis so that
the therapist can explore the origins in search of a real solution.  But
then not all chemotheraputic agents are 100% effective in cancer treatment.

Instincts, insights and intuition fall outside of the rigid barriers of
the scientific method.  All the anecdotal evidence in the world is not
going to convince a religious adherent to the scientific method that
these themes have any validity.  The influences of Aristotle go that deep.

>The important issue in our context here, as I see it, is that we are trying
>to write an encyclopedia of fact, not opinion. If an expert (ouch, yes, I
>used the word) in a field writes facts in that field as they know them to
>be, I believe it presents a problem when a non-expert (there I did it again)
>edits out those facts, and substitutes their opinion.
>
Both experts and non-experts can fall into the trap of confusing fact
with opinion, and defend their respective determinations tenaciously.
Some will carefully distinguish the two with the statement that facts
are what they state in an argument, and opinions are what their
opponents put forth.

>If the above constitutes a diatribe, so be it. If you don?t want to hear the
>bell, don?t push the button :-).
>
If there's one thing that Wikipedians do well it's push buttons. :-)

Ec


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Moving the Main Page

body:
On 1/16/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> Occam's Razor, Llama.
> For all we know Oskar could have multiple personalities.
> That could easily explain his use of the word 'we' in this context.
>
> Mgm ;)

Yes! Yes! This is nice Oskar speaking! I'm trapped by evil Oskar, and
he wont let me out! He tortures kittens and votes for the social
democrats.... QUIET YOU! ... no, he's becoming more
powerful.....QUIET!.... ahhhh!!!.....

There. Now I've quieted down that pesky "nice" Oskar... I can't stand
the little wimp, but at least he agrees with me that we shouldn't move
the damn main page!

--Oskar


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out

body:
Well, I found one interesting use of wikiseek: Searching for spamlinks on
Wikipedia. Check out

http://www.wikiseek.com/results.php?q=sex - of the 9 links on the first page
at the time I did my search (the one on Wikipedia itself not counted), 7
seem to be outright spam (I'm now going through them, so they might have
disappeared by the time you get to the page).

One thing I find a pity is that wikiseek seems to only search the English
Wikipedia. It would be nicer to be able to search any languages, perhaps
with 'all languages' as a default.

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


subject: [Foundation-l] wikiseek is out