subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Listinterwikis

references:
<ens32r$ato$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<7c2a12e20701071633p44cdec5dlac415feae4cb13cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<ens75j$k6s$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 1/7/07, JePe <jepe at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Aha.. I didn't know there are so much from this kind of links. I have tested
> some links, some are linking to the wrong page on a website. For example
> [[cache:abc]] doesn't give the google cache of abc, but it searches for the word
> cache:abc.
>
> Is there a wikimedia-page were we can give feedback about this or make requests
> for other interwiki links?

Apparently http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_map.


list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Peter van Londen

subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising and site notice

body:
GerardM and community

I do agree with your view. I also think that lack of funds is a serious
issue and I don't thank the opposition to have achieved not doing more
matching donations this fundraiser.

I do disagree with you that there is no serious alternative. There is and it
is brought up in a separate thread by Teun Spaans (
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026545.html).
It is a separate project aimed at publishing fanstuff with adds (which is
now part a popular part of every Wikipedia), so that the other projects can
do without adds and we still have money to fund all projects and indeed
expand on some further ideas.

I don't understand that not more persons seem to be willing to judge on this
idea? I don't care if thorough consideration will have a negative outcome,
if there would be enough reason no to have a Fanpedia, but it is an
alternative!! And until know it seems to be discarded. Please think about it
and comment on that idea, it is worth considering. It seems that Wikia is
doing good with this way of funding.

Kind regards
Londenp

2007/1/7, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen op gmail.com>:
>
> Oldak Quill schreef:
> > On 07/01/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen op gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Oldak Quill schreef:
> >>
> >>> On 07/01/07, Florence Devouard <anthere op anthere.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hello everyone.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just for a head up (or down)
> >>>>
> >>>> First, I wanted to announce to all that there will be no more
> matching
> >>>> donors in that fundraiser.
> >>>> This is due to a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to,
> the
> >>>> reaction of some members in the community.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Regardless of whether I agreed with the Virgin notice or not, this is
> >>> an excellent move on behalf of the Foundation. It demonstrates the
> >>> Foundatin's responsiveness to Wikimedians and that there is no
> >>> bureaucratic disconnect (which is always a worry when a project like
> >>> ours begins to organise into formalised institutions and structures).
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Florence and the rest of the team. You're doing an excellent
> job.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Hoi,
> >> I am afraid you did not read the whole of Florence her e-mail, or you
> >> only read what you want to read.. "Fourth, we'll go on with limited
> >> funds. Limited means we'll go delaying certain issues. That's life !"
> >>
> >> This means that things that are deemed necessary will not happen or
> will
> >> not happen in the near future for lack of funds. There have been no
> >> serious proposals on how the WMF can make the money that it requires.
> >> And where you see responsiveness, I fail to see how our aim is indeed
> >> best served when you consider our growth and our lack of current
> funding.
> >>
> >> In my opinion this is at best a Pyrrhic victory.
> >>
> >
> > IMO, the lack of funds is *not* a good thing. But that doesn't remove
> > from the perceived responsiveness of the Foundation. It seems to me
> > that the community was damaged/divided by the discussion last week:
> > there were alot of very emotive mails exchanged on this list. For this
> > reason, I think it was crucial that the Foundation demonstrate
> > responsiveness even at the cost of some funding. In doing so, the
> > community can, to an extent, heal.
> >
> > I think that just announcing that that no matching donors would be
> > named in the SiteNotice would have been enough (I didn't object to the
> > anonymous matching donor). Still, too much is better than nothing.
> Hoi,
> Well in my opinion the fact that people actually sabotaged the fund
> raising is indeed damaging to our community. These people fail to
> understand that the need for continually /more /funding is a function of
> our growth. Where you see a community damaged/divided, I see a community
> that was already divided. What I see is an organisation, our
> organisation, that will increasingly find it problematic to balance its
> books. An organisation that is not able to do the things it needs to do.
> An organisations that as a consequence will be increasingly unable to
> accommodate the growth that it could have.
>
> I disagree that our community will heal because of this temporary
> reprieve. If anything it polarises the positions between those who want
> to see the Foundation accept the money it can get and therefore do an
> even better job and those that hold personal positions that have nothing
> to do with the stated aims of our organisation. What has happened is
> deferring the problem to the future, the sad thing is that the need for
> money will only be bigger at that time and this will make the struggle
> even more damaging.
>
> The fact that you do not consider the lack of funds a good thing makes
> no material difference. It does not help as money would.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l op lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


list: wikimedia-l

body:
GerardM and community

I do agree with your view. I also think that lack of funds is a serious
issue and I don't thank the opposition to have achieved not doing more
matching donations this fundraiser.

I do disagree with you that there is no serious alternative. There is and it
is brought up in a separate thread by Teun Spaans (
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026545.html).
It is a separate project aimed at publishing fanstuff with adds (which is
now part a popular part of every Wikipedia), so that the other projects can
do without adds and we still have money to fund all projects and indeed
expand on some further ideas.

I don't understand that not more persons seem to be willing to judge on this
idea? I don't care if thorough consideration will have a negative outcome,
if there would be enough reason no to have a Fanpedia, but it is an
alternative!! And until know it seems to be discarded. Please think about it
and comment on that idea, it is worth considering. It seems that Wikia is
doing good with this way of funding.

Kind regards
Londenp

2007/1/7, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>:
>
> Oldak Quill schreef:
> > On 07/01/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Oldak Quill schreef:
> >>
> >>> On 07/01/07, Florence Devouard <anthere at anthere.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hello everyone.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just for a head up (or down)
> >>>>
> >>>> First, I wanted to announce to all that there will be no more
> matching
> >>>> donors in that fundraiser.
> >>>> This is due to a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to,
> the
> >>>> reaction of some members in the community.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Regardless of whether I agreed with the Virgin notice or not, this is
> >>> an excellent move on behalf of the Foundation. It demonstrates the
> >>> Foundatin's responsiveness to Wikimedians and that there is no
> >>> bureaucratic disconnect (which is always a worry when a project like
> >>> ours begins to organise into formalised institutions and structures).
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Florence and the rest of the team. You're doing an excellent
> job.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Hoi,
> >> I am afraid you did not read the whole of Florence her e-mail, or you
> >> only read what you want to read.. "Fourth, we'll go on with limited
> >> funds. Limited means we'll go delaying certain issues. That's life !"
> >>
> >> This means that things that are deemed necessary will not happen or
> will
> >> not happen in the near future for lack of funds. There have been no
> >> serious proposals on how the WMF can make the money that it requires.
> >> And where you see responsiveness, I fail to see how our aim is indeed
> >> best served when you consider our growth and our lack of current
> funding.
> >>
> >> In my opinion this is at best a Pyrrhic victory.
> >>
> >
> > IMO, the lack of funds is *not* a good thing. But that doesn't remove
> > from the perceived responsiveness of the Foundation. It seems to me
> > that the community was damaged/divided by the discussion last week:
> > there were alot of very emotive mails exchanged on this list. For this
> > reason, I think it was crucial that the Foundation demonstrate
> > responsiveness even at the cost of some funding. In doing so, the
> > community can, to an extent, heal.
> >
> > I think that just announcing that that no matching donors would be
> > named in the SiteNotice would have been enough (I didn't object to the
> > anonymous matching donor). Still, too much is better than nothing.
> Hoi,
> Well in my opinion the fact that people actually sabotaged the fund
> raising is indeed damaging to our community. These people fail to
> understand that the need for continually /more /funding is a function of
> our growth. Where you see a community damaged/divided, I see a community
> that was already divided. What I see is an organisation, our
> organisation, that will increasingly find it problematic to balance its
> books. An organisation that is not able to do the things it needs to do.
> An organisations that as a consequence will be increasingly unable to
> accommodate the growth that it could have.
>
> I disagree that our community will heal because of this temporary
> reprieve. If anything it polarises the positions between those who want
> to see the Foundation accept the money it can get and therefore do an
> even better job and those that hold personal positions that have nothing
> to do with the stated aims of our organisation. What has happened is
> deferring the problem to the future, the sad thing is that the need for
> money will only be bigger at that time and this will make the struggle
> even more damaging.
>
> The fact that you do not consider the lack of funds a good thing makes
> no material difference. It does not help as money would.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Hoi,
In your assertion that Wikia is doing good with this way of funding, you
immediately indicate what the problem is with the proposal; it is being
done and quiet successfully by others (not only Wikia). The problem with
the proposal is also that in order to benefit from the proposal, the WMF
has to seriously invest in these projects. It must because this is then
how we make some of our money. The people who are not interested in the
"fanstuff" will not be interested in doing this and seriously, why would
the people who ARE interested in this stuff be willing to work on this;
the Wikipedia crowd exorcised them into another project? Why should they
be willing to do profit the WMF, when they can go elsewhere to nice
established communities..

We know how much money the Foundation needs.. It needs $1.500.000,- at
this moment in time.. Do you really think the fanstuff proposal will
make us the money that will be sufficient for the /increased /need for
money of the Foundation that is the consequence of the growth of its
projects?? This does not even consider the investments we would like to
make to make a difference in other ways (administrative for instance) If
you think the scheme will work for all this, please show us the math.

You explicitly asked for people to consider the proposal.. Sorry, to be
this dismissive.

Thanks,
    GerardM

Peter van Londen schreef:
> GerardM and community
>
> I do agree with your view. I also think that lack of funds is a serious
> issue and I don't thank the opposition to have achieved not doing more
> matching donations this fundraiser.
>
> I do disagree with you that there is no serious alternative. There is and it
> is brought up in a separate thread by Teun Spaans (
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026545.html).
> It is a separate project aimed at publishing fanstuff with adds (which is
> now part a popular part of every Wikipedia), so that the other projects can
> do without adds and we still have money to fund all projects and indeed
> expand on some further ideas.
>
> I don't understand that not more persons seem to be willing to judge on this
> idea? I don't care if thorough consideration will have a negative outcome,
> if there would be enough reason no to have a Fanpedia, but it is an
> alternative!! And until know it seems to be discarded. Please think about it
> and comment on that idea, it is worth considering. It seems that Wikia is
> doing good with this way of funding.
>
> Kind regards
> Londenp
>
> 2007/1/7, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>:
>
>> Oldak Quill schreef:
>>
>>> On 07/01/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Oldak Quill schreef:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 07/01/07, Florence Devouard <anthere at anthere.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello everyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just for a head up (or down)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, I wanted to announce to all that there will be no more
>>>>>>
>> matching
>>
>>>>>> donors in that fundraiser.
>>>>>> This is due to a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to,
>>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>>> reaction of some members in the community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Regardless of whether I agreed with the Virgin notice or not, this is
>>>>> an excellent move on behalf of the Foundation. It demonstrates the
>>>>> Foundatin's responsiveness to Wikimedians and that there is no
>>>>> bureaucratic disconnect (which is always a worry when a project like
>>>>> ours begins to organise into formalised institutions and structures).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Florence and the rest of the team. You're doing an excellent
>>>>>
>> job.
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> I am afraid you did not read the whole of Florence her e-mail, or you
>>>> only read what you want to read.. "Fourth, we'll go on with limited
>>>> funds. Limited means we'll go delaying certain issues. That's life !"
>>>>
>>>> This means that things that are deemed necessary will not happen or
>>>>
>> will
>>
>>>> not happen in the near future for lack of funds. There have been no
>>>> serious proposals on how the WMF can make the money that it requires.
>>>> And where you see responsiveness, I fail to see how our aim is indeed
>>>> best served when you consider our growth and our lack of current
>>>>
>> funding.
>>
>>>> In my opinion this is at best a Pyrrhic victory.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> IMO, the lack of funds is *not* a good thing. But that doesn't remove
>>> from the perceived responsiveness of the Foundation. It seems to me
>>> that the community was damaged/divided by the discussion last week:
>>> there were alot of very emotive mails exchanged on this list. For this
>>> reason, I think it was crucial that the Foundation demonstrate
>>> responsiveness even at the cost of some funding. In doing so, the
>>> community can, to an extent, heal.
>>>
>>> I think that just announcing that that no matching donors would be
>>> named in the SiteNotice would have been enough (I didn't object to the
>>> anonymous matching donor). Still, too much is better than nothing.
>>>
>> Hoi,
>> Well in my opinion the fact that people actually sabotaged the fund
>> raising is indeed damaging to our community. These people fail to
>> understand that the need for continually /more /funding is a function of
>> our growth. Where you see a community damaged/divided, I see a community
>> that was already divided. What I see is an organisation, our
>> organisation, that will increasingly find it problematic to balance its
>> books. An organisation that is not able to do the things it needs to do.
>> An organisations that as a consequence will be increasingly unable to
>> accommodate the growth that it could have.
>>
>> I disagree that our community will heal because of this temporary
>> reprieve. If anything it polarises the positions between those who want
>> to see the Foundation accept the money it can get and therefore do an
>> even better job and those that hold personal positions that have nothing
>> to do with the stated aims of our organisation. What has happened is
>> deferring the problem to the future, the sad thing is that the need for
>> money will only be bigger at that time and this will make the struggle
>> even more damaging.
>>
>> The fact that you do not consider the lack of funds a good thing makes
>> no material difference. It does not help as money would.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>     GerardM


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Gordon Joly

subject: [Wikitech-l] [Foundation-l] Why is MediaWiki so low-tech?

body:
Rob

Could you make sure that is it clear who said what?

I only said some of this below. It is not clear who said the rest.

Cheers!

Gordo

At 20:21 +0000 7/1/07, Rob Church wrote:
>On 07/01/07, Gordon Joly <gordon.joly at pobox.com> wrote:
>  > >My point in its simplest form was that there ARE ways of doing VERY funky
>>  >stuff. And I don't mean flashing animations, I mean stuff that actually
>>  >makes MediaWiki run better, be easier to use, attract more users, etc.
>
>Nobody is adverse to implementing any AJAX in MediaWiki where it will
>be genuinely useful. As an example, Simetrical recently committed some
>code adapted from a patch which makes it possible to watch/unwatch
>pages using AJAX. It's very neat, works superbly and is a nice little
>time-saver. Pending some minor tweaking, it will probably make it
>live.
>
>>  >Compatibility isn't that much of an issue because:
>
>Compatibility is always an issue. Absolutely always.
>
>>  >If lack of developers and money is the only problem then why not be more
>>  >WIKI about it?
>
>It's not a lack of developers or a lack of cash, although more of both
>is always better.
>
>>  Money pays for servers. Developers work for nothing.
>
>We have two paid developers.
>
>>  >Call to the Wikimedian community for volunteer coders to help
>>  >improve MediaWiki. Of course this is a lot more complex than I make it
>>  >sound, but the point is that somewhere out there will be a
>>professional AJAX
>>  >coder willing to code free for Wikimedia. I know that if I knew the
>>  >language, I'd do it.
>
>There is an established process for improving MediaWiki. We also have
>most of the AJAX framework in place.
>
>
>Rob Church
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
gordon.joly at pobox.com///


subject: [Foundation-l] Why is MediaWiki so low-tech?

body:
At 21:37 +0100 7/1/07, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>Gordon Joly schreef:
>>  At 17:49 +0000 7/1/07, Virgil Ierubino wrote:
>>
>>  .....
>>
>>>  If lack of developers and money is the only problem then why not be more
>>>  WIKI about it?
>>>
>>
>>
>>  Money pays for servers. Developers work for nothing.
>>
>Hoi,
>You would be surprised how many developers make a living programming and
>maintaining MediaWiki. It is also very much NOT according to the
>philosophy of the Free Software Foundation that programmers should not
>be paid. They are entitled to all the money they can earn.

I meant that the bulk of the Mediawiki code was written by developers
who were not paid to write Mediawiki code. I assume that they had
paid employment.

>
>I would also not want to say that our volunteer developers work for
>nothing.. They work to make a difference, and they do. The thing is
>there are "demands" for all kinds of functionality and much of this does
>not materialise. It does not happen because there are too few
>developers. It happens because they are volunteers too and they do what
>they like to do (and who would blame them?). The big projects that are
>wished for take a LOT of time and it helps a lot when the work can be
>done in a limited timespan as it makes the work more effective and economic.
>
>So please, there are many big projects that the WMF wants to develop.
>They do not happen because there are no developers. Given the problems
>raising sufficient funds, we are not able to do the things that were
>planned in the way we hoped we were able to.
>
>Thanks,
>     GerardM

OK.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
gordon.joly at pobox.com///


list: wikien-l

from_name: David Gerard

subject:
[WikiEN-l] London Wikimeet with added Jimbo: Wednesday 10 Jan,
	Montagu Pyke, WC2H 0BP

body:
No-one else has picked a pub, so let's pick the one we tried for last
time, which was, ahh, shut. But should be open now. Jimbo will be in
town for this one.

Montagu Pyke
105?107 Charing Cross Rd
London WC2H 0BP
http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/pubfinder/details.php?OutletNumber=644

It's a Wetherspoon, so they'll have a drinkable real ale and some mediocre food.

Tubes: Leicester Square, Covent Garden, Tottenham Court Road,
Piccadilly Circus, Charing Cross.

It's right in the centre of London, everything is near everything.
I'll be getting there sevenish after work. If others will be earlier,
please say so.

I'll just note this on the wiki as well ...

- d.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] [Wikipedia-l] London Wikimeet with added Jimbo:
	Wednesday 10 Jan, Montagu Pyke, WC2H 0BP

body:
No-one else has picked a pub, so let's pick the one we tried for last
time, which was, ahh, shut. But should be open now. Jimbo will be in
town for this one.

Montagu Pyke
105?107 Charing Cross Rd
London WC2H 0BP
http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/pubfinder/details.php?OutletNumber=644

It's a Wetherspoon, so they'll have a drinkable real ale and some mediocre food.

Tubes: Leicester Square, Covent Garden, Tottenham Court Road,
Piccadilly Circus, Charing Cross.

It's right in the centre of London, everything is near everything.
I'll be getting there sevenish after work. If others will be earlier,
please say so.

I'll just note this on the wiki as well ...

- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


list: wikipedia-l

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] London Wikimeet with added Jimbo: Wednesday 10 Jan,
	Montagu Pyke, WC2H 0BP


from_name: James Hare

subject: [WikiEN-l] New bot up for RFA

body:
Automation is good, because people are lazy.

(Don't believe me? Count the number of project-space shortcuts there are.)

We should just *try* this -- maybe then people will get over this phobia.

On 1/7/07, Royalguard11 <royalguard11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree. One of the better ideas to come along in the last while. Now
> if some people would just get over the ZMOG! ADMIN-BOT! part and move
> on with their lives and realize that wikipedia needs this type of
> automation.
>
> -Royalguard11
>
>
> On 1/7/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:18:50 -0500, "xaosflux" <xaosflux at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >FYI: A proposal to grant sysop rights to an automated account is
> > >currently being discussed at [[Wikipedia:Requests for
> > >adminship/ProtectionBot]].
> >
> > And a very fine idea it is, too.
> >
> > Guy (JzG)
> > --
> > http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Guy Chapman aka JzG

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from
	the Third World

body:
On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 19:51:19 +0000, "Andrew Gray" <shimgray at gmail.com>
wrote:

>Deletion summary was "(Deleting page - reason was: "Empty page" using
>NPWatcher)"

Bad.  I don't use automated tools to do Actual Deletions.  Of course
the occasional valid subject gets swept up among the detritus, but
hopefully not *too* much.  Unfortunately, the ones who bitch and moan
most are the ones who have just created the article on episode 17 of
American Fancruft, the title of which has yet to be finalised but its
airing date is rumoured to be some time in October 2008.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


from_name: Jeff Raymond

subject: [WikiEN-l] New bot up for RFA

body:
James Hare wrote:
> Automation is good, because people are lazy.
>
> (Don't believe me? Count the number of project-space shortcuts there are.)
>
> We should just *try* this -- maybe then people will get over this phobia.

I still think the code needs to be widely available.

-Jeff

--
Name: Jeff Raymond
E-mail: jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com
WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com
IM: badlydrawnjeff
Quote: "As the hobbits are going up Mount Doom, the
	Eye of Mordor is being drawn somewhere else."
	- Sen. Rick Santorum on the war in Iraq.


body:
On 07/01/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> Montagu Pyke
> 105?107 Charing Cross Rd
> London WC2H 0BP
> http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/pubfinder/details.php?OutletNumber=644
> I'll be getting there sevenish after work. If others will be earlier,
> please say so.
> I'll just note this on the wiki as well ...

Signup sheet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/London#Informal_socials

I see (and vaguely recall) there were three other pubs in the offing,
but it was getting late in the evening so, being thick, I forgot all
about them. Whoops. If anyone is mortally offended by the idea of the
Montagu Pyke, please speak NOW with such force of personality as to
make your definite single choice of pub the only possibly reasonable
alternative.

- d.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] [Wikipedia-l] London Wikimeet with added Jimbo:
	Wednesday 10	Jan, Montagu Pyke, WC2H 0BP

body:
On 07/01/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> Montagu Pyke
> 105?107 Charing Cross Rd
> London WC2H 0BP
> http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/pubfinder/details.php?OutletNumber=644
> I'll be getting there sevenish after work. If others will be earlier,
> please say so.
> I'll just note this on the wiki as well ...

Signup sheet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/London#Informal_socials

I see (and vaguely recall) there were three other pubs in the offing,
but it was getting late in the evening so, being thick, I forgot all
about them. Whoops. If anyone is mortally offended by the idea of the
Montagu Pyke, please speak NOW with such force of personality as to
make your definite single choice of pub the only possibly reasonable
alternative.

- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] London Wikimeet with added Jimbo: Wednesday 10
	Jan, Montagu Pyke, WC2H 0BP


from_name: Frederick Noronha

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third
	World

body:
You're right. But much of Asia, Africa and Latin America is simply
invisible in cyberspace! So, are we building alternatives, or just
carrying on the old (unjust) "information and communication order". FN

On 07/01/07, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2007/1/7, Frederick Noronha <fred at bytesforall.org>:
>
> I'm not contesting your point... just saying that there needs to be
> > some discerning criteria. Thanks for your patience! FN
> >
>
> I don't think there can be any other criterium than common sense. The types
> of subjects that come up on Wikipedia is too diverse to set a single rule
> for all of them.
>
> Google can be useful, but a single cut-off value is not. For some subjects a
> single hit that proves existence is enough, for others 1000 hits are still a
> very low number. For example, I once saved [[William Gott]] based on a
> single Google hit of about 30 that existed then (4000 now) - he did indeed
> exist, and that was enough. On the other hand, getting 800 hits for a
> web-based program was a 'strong delete' vote.
>
> Maybe even more important than the number of Google hits, is their nature.
> Suppose you have a current painter. If they have many Google hits, but many
> consisting of places where it seems the painter could have submitted the
> material himself, it doesn't count for much. If you have the same number,
> but with a number of those links being galleries in various countries
> announcing their expositions, it is a clear reason for keeping the article.
>
> --
> Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
> ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php


subject: [WikiEN-l] New bot up for RFA

body:
I can imagine how that can be benefit; it'd allow for public auditing of the
code.

Problem is, if you let everyone see it, you let EVERYONE see it -- even the
people who will take a look at it and figure out how to compromise the bot.

On 1/7/07, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com> wrote:
>
> James Hare wrote:
> > Automation is good, because people are lazy.
> >
> > (Don't believe me? Count the number of project-space shortcuts there
> are.)
> >
> > We should just *try* this -- maybe then people will get over this
> phobia.
>
> I still think the code needs to be widely available.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> --
> Name: Jeff Raymond
> E-mail: jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com
> WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com
> IM: badlydrawnjeff
> Quote: "As the hobbits are going up Mount Doom, the
>         Eye of Mordor is being drawn somewhere else."
>         - Sen. Rick Santorum on the war in Iraq.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Gordon Joly schreef:
> At 17:49 +0000 7/1/07, Virgil Ierubino wrote:
>
> .....
>
>> If lack of developers and money is the only problem then why not be more
>> WIKI about it?
>>
>
>
> Money pays for servers. Developers work for nothing.
>
Hoi,
You would be surprised how many developers make a living programming and
maintaining MediaWiki. It is also very much NOT according to the
philosophy of the Free Software Foundation that programmers should not
be paid. They are entitled to all the money they can earn.

I would also not want to say that our volunteer developers work for
nothing.. They work to make a difference, and they do. The thing is
there are "demands" for all kinds of functionality and much of this does
not materialise. It does not happen because there are too few
developers. It happens because they are volunteers too and they do what
they like to do (and who would blame them?). The big projects that are
wished for take a LOT of time and it helps a lot when the work can be
done in a limited timespan as it makes the work more effective and economic.

So please, there are many big projects that the WMF wants to develop.
They do not happen because there are no developers. Given the problems
raising sufficient funds, we are not able to do the things that were
planned in the way we hoped we were able to.

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [Wikipedia-l] [Foundation-l] Why is MediaWiki so low-tech?


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [Foundation-l] Mission/Vision Statement

body:
James Hare wrote:
> I think "patch" mentioned to a garden patch.
>
> "Miracle-Gro on head" reminds me of a website I used to go on...
>

I think you are thinking of Rogaine, which is a product well-targeted to
some rogainers I've known :)

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject: [Foundation-l] Mission/Vision Statement

body:
James Hare wrote:
> I think "patch" mentioned to a garden patch.
>
> "Miracle-Gro on head" reminds me of a website I used to go on...
>

I think you are thinking of Rogaine, which is a product well-targeted to
some rogainers I've known :)

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject: [Foundation-l] Mission/Vision Statement

body:
James Hare wrote:
> I think "patch" mentioned to a garden patch.
>
> "Miracle-Gro on head" reminds me of a website I used to go on...
>

I think you are thinking of Rogaine, which is a product well-targeted to
some rogainers I've known :)

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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from_name: Andrew Dunbar

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki hook questions

body:
I want to preprocess the wikitext of articles adding
info found by a database lookup based on the article
name.

The best place for preprocessing is in the parser so
I've hooked ParserBeforeStrip but the parser works
in chunks of wikitext rather than in articles. I've been
able to filter out the chunks which are not part of the
article because $parser->getVariableValue('revisionid')
will return 0 for those.

But long artices can cause more than one chunk of
wikitext to be sent to the parser and since I only
want to add to the top of the article I need to detect
these chunks and ignore them.

Another problem is that I also want to add to the top
of the 'noarticletext' page which is displayed when
the user enters a URL for a page which doesn't exist.
There is currently no hook for this. I've tried adding
one which works for me but there are actually 3
places in the code which can result in this page.
I'm not sure that I need to hook the other two since
they appear to be edge cases.

One final question is on sharing data between my
hooks for ArticleAfterFetchContent and
ParserBeforeStrip. I'm using a global variable but
maybe there's a better way. ArticleAfterFetchContent
seems to be the best place for doing the database
lookup based on the article name to work nice with
the cache.

Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)

--
http://linguaphile.sf.net


body:
On 07/01/07, Gordon Joly <gordon.joly at pobox.com> wrote:

> I have had one request from a wiki I run for a local history group -
> a spell checker. Everything else they like (the group had TWiki
> experience from another project).

Does the red-wiggly-underliner in Firefox 2 do any good here?

- d.


from_name: Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)

subject: [WikiEN-l] New bot up for RFA

body:
On 1/7/07, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I can imagine how that can be benefit; it'd allow for public auditing of
> the
> code.
>
> Problem is, if you let everyone see it, you let EVERYONE see it -- even
> the
> people who will take a look at it and figure out how to compromise the
> bot.

There's discussion of this issue on the talkpage of the RfA.

Newyorkbrad


from_name: Simetrical

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki as a Wikimedia project

body:
On 1/7/07, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's just begging for a "somebody set us up the bomb" type response.

We get signal.


from_name: Neil Harris

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 07/01/07, Gordon Joly <gordon.joly at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I have had one request from a wiki I run for a local history group -
>> a spell checker. Everything else they like (the group had TWiki
>> experience from another project).
>>
>
>
> Does the red-wiggly-underliner in Firefox 2 do any good here?
>
>
> - d.
>
>

It works fine for me. As does the searching within form fields that is
another very Wiki-friendly feature of FF2.

-- Neil


body:
On 07/01/07, Neil Harris <usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > On 07/01/07, Gordon Joly <gordon.joly at pobox.com> wrote:

> >> I have had one request from a wiki I run for a local history group -
> >> a spell checker. Everything else they like (the group had TWiki
> >> experience from another project).

> > Does the red-wiggly-underliner in Firefox 2 do any good here?

> It works fine for me. As does the searching within form fields that is
> another very Wiki-friendly feature of FF2.

Yeah. A feature that was in Firebird (as it was) and Mozilla, then was
*taken out* of Firefox! I'm very glad it's back, particularly for wiki
editing.

- d.


body:
I think this idea doesn't deserve such an answer, but hey I asked for it:
1) I have not said that it should be the only way of funding, I think it
would help though as one out of the several funding possibilities to
generate the amount of cash, which you envision.
2) Communities have to grow. This was the same with Wikipedia, Wikibooks and
so on. I don't see why a Fanpedia would not grow.
3) Fanstuff is a part of Wikipedia. There are people fully devoted to these
mini-projects, they would move to the new project, even more when they share
the same ideals as we have.
4) I have no idea how much cash it could or would generate. People involved
in Wikia might have an answer though.
5) Until now I have heared answers why it would not work, but not much
answers which say what *would* work to raise to at least 1.5 million per
fundraiser. There are not many acceptable ideas, are there? I see your point
in the necessity of  loads of money, but there must be alternatives for
advertising on all projects.

This is the core of the proposal: we have one project which generates cash
so the other projects can be funded without advertising. It doesn't have to
be fanstuff, but that is popular and will generate a lot of traffic and
therefore money. It might also help keep editors who have a problem with
advertising on the projects.

I still don't understand the problems and would like to ask if we could make
a pilot-project. Let's say on the dutch projects and then see how this would
develop.

Kind regards
Londenp

2007/1/7, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen op gmail.com>:
>
> Hoi,
> In your assertion that Wikia is doing good with this way of funding, you
> immediately indicate what the problem is with the proposal; it is being
> done and quiet successfully by others (not only Wikia). The problem with
> the proposal is also that in order to benefit from the proposal, the WMF
> has to seriously invest in these projects. It must because this is then
> how we make some of our money. The people who are not interested in the
> "fanstuff" will not be interested in doing this and seriously, why would
> the people who ARE interested in this stuff be willing to work on this;
> the Wikipedia crowd exorcised them into another project? Why should they
> be willing to do profit the WMF, when they can go elsewhere to nice
> established communities..
>
> We know how much money the Foundation needs.. It needs $1.500.000,- at
> this moment in time.. Do you really think the fanstuff proposal will
> make us the money that will be sufficient for the /increased /need for
> money of the Foundation that is the consequence of the growth of its
> projects?? This does not even consider the investments we would like to
> make to make a difference in other ways (administrative for instance) If
> you think the scheme will work for all this, please show us the math.
>
> You explicitly asked for people to consider the proposal.. Sorry, to be
> this dismissive.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
>
> Peter van Londen schreef:
> > GerardM and community
> >
> > I do agree with your view. I also think that lack of funds is a serious
> > issue and I don't thank the opposition to have achieved not doing more
> > matching donations this fundraiser.
> >
> > I do disagree with you that there is no serious alternative. There is
> and it
> > is brought up in a separate thread by Teun Spaans (
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026545.html
> ).
> > It is a separate project aimed at publishing fanstuff with adds (which
> is
> > now part a popular part of every Wikipedia), so that the other projects
> can
> > do without adds and we still have money to fund all projects and indeed
> > expand on some further ideas.
> >
> > I don't understand that not more persons seem to be willing to judge on
> this
> > idea? I don't care if thorough consideration will have a negative
> outcome,
> > if there would be enough reason no to have a Fanpedia, but it is an
> > alternative!! And until know it seems to be discarded. Please think
> about it
> > and comment on that idea, it is worth considering. It seems that Wikia
> is
> > doing good with this way of funding.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Londenp
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l op lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
I think this idea doesn't deserve such an answer, but hey I asked for it:
1) I have not said that it should be the only way of funding, I think it
would help though as one out of the several funding possibilities to
generate the amount of cash, which you envision.
2) Communities have to grow. This was the same with Wikipedia, Wikibooks and
so on. I don't see why a Fanpedia would not grow.
3) Fanstuff is a part of Wikipedia. There are people fully devoted to these
mini-projects, they would move to the new project, even more when they share
the same ideals as we have.
4) I have no idea how much cash it could or would generate. People involved
in Wikia might have an answer though.
5) Until now I have heared answers why it would not work, but not much
answers which say what *would* work to raise to at least 1.5 million per
fundraiser. There are not many acceptable ideas, are there? I see your point
in the necessity of  loads of money, but there must be alternatives for
advertising on all projects.

This is the core of the proposal: we have one project which generates cash
so the other projects can be funded without advertising. It doesn't have to
be fanstuff, but that is popular and will generate a lot of traffic and
therefore money. It might also help keep editors who have a problem with
advertising on the projects.

I still don't understand the problems and would like to ask if we could make
a pilot-project. Let's say on the dutch projects and then see how this would
develop.

Kind regards
Londenp

2007/1/7, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>:
>
> Hoi,
> In your assertion that Wikia is doing good with this way of funding, you
> immediately indicate what the problem is with the proposal; it is being
> done and quiet successfully by others (not only Wikia). The problem with
> the proposal is also that in order to benefit from the proposal, the WMF
> has to seriously invest in these projects. It must because this is then
> how we make some of our money. The people who are not interested in the
> "fanstuff" will not be interested in doing this and seriously, why would
> the people who ARE interested in this stuff be willing to work on this;
> the Wikipedia crowd exorcised them into another project? Why should they
> be willing to do profit the WMF, when they can go elsewhere to nice
> established communities..
>
> We know how much money the Foundation needs.. It needs $1.500.000,- at
> this moment in time.. Do you really think the fanstuff proposal will
> make us the money that will be sufficient for the /increased /need for
> money of the Foundation that is the consequence of the growth of its
> projects?? This does not even consider the investments we would like to
> make to make a difference in other ways (administrative for instance) If
> you think the scheme will work for all this, please show us the math.
>
> You explicitly asked for people to consider the proposal.. Sorry, to be
> this dismissive.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
>
> Peter van Londen schreef:
> > GerardM and community
> >
> > I do agree with your view. I also think that lack of funds is a serious
> > issue and I don't thank the opposition to have achieved not doing more
> > matching donations this fundraiser.
> >
> > I do disagree with you that there is no serious alternative. There is
> and it
> > is brought up in a separate thread by Teun Spaans (
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026545.html
> ).
> > It is a separate project aimed at publishing fanstuff with adds (which
> is
> > now part a popular part of every Wikipedia), so that the other projects
> can
> > do without adds and we still have money to fund all projects and indeed
> > expand on some further ideas.
> >
> > I don't understand that not more persons seem to be willing to judge on
> this
> > idea? I don't care if thorough consideration will have a negative
> outcome,
> > if there would be enough reason no to have a Fanpedia, but it is an
> > alternative!! And until know it seems to be discarded. Please think
> about it
> > and comment on that idea, it is worth considering. It seems that Wikia
> is
> > doing good with this way of funding.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Londenp
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Brad Patrick

subject: [Wikitech-l] Adequate place for new wikistats

body:
I hope the developers give you a nice answer.  ;-)

I wanted to thank you for your effort, and encourage you to continue with
this line of research.  Understanding our projects through data is an
important and focused task many choose not to engage; thank you to you and
your colleagues for their work.

/me is excited to see what you have wrought.

-Brad

On 1/7/07, Felipe Ortega <glimmer_phoenix at yahoo.es> wrote:
>
> Hi all.
>
> The Libresoft Group, at Universidad Rey Juan Carlos (Madrid), has started
> to generate a bunch of interesting metric graphics about Wikipedia.
>
> These graphics currently include histograms about article size. They will
> soon also include, for instance, caracterization of several important groups
> of authors and their evolution in time (much in the way Jimbo Wales exposed
> a few months ago).
>
> We plan to extend these results to all language versions of Wikipedia.
>
> As these graphics complement current wikimetrics info about the project,
> generated by Erik Zatche's scripts, we wonder about the better place to
> release them, in case Wikimedia is interested (under a GPL license).
>
> Could we include them in an "official repository page" with metrics about
> Wikipedia? Should we place only a link to a server of our own? Which could
> be the better place to create those links?
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Regards.
>
> Felipe Ortega.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Correo Yahoo!
> Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis!
> Reg?strate ya - http://correo.yahoo.es
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
Brad Patrick
General Counsel & Interim Executive Director
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
bradp.wmf at gmail.com
727-231-0101


from_name: Mark Clements

subject: [Wikitech-l] stop playing with bug 3509

body:
"Rob Church" <robchur at gmail.com> wrote in
message news:e92136380701071151jc338f2bv88639d88d0b8e04d at mail.gmail.com...
> On 07/01/07, Ashar Voultoiz
<hashar at altern.org> wrote:
> > Please stop playing with bug #3509. Bugzilla is not a wiki where you can
> > start an edit war. The bug is closed and should stay closed.
>
> Please don't mischaracterise other people reopening bugs in good faith
> as "playing", that's extremely ill-mannered.
>

...although looking at the bug history, he has a point...

- Mark Clements (HappyDog)


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] stop playing with bug 3509

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Hello Duncan Harris,
>
> Please stop playing with bug #3509. Bugzilla is not a wiki where you can
> start an edit war. The bug is closed and should stay closed.

Sorry, I got upset. I took some fresh air and I feel better now.

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
IM: hashar at jabber.org  ICQ: 15325080


body:
Interesting what you write, Bogdan. The links you came up with from
the Google timeline are also nice. But there is still a problem here.

I did a search for my own name. And compared the hits with what I
know.... It depends a lot to *which* newspapers get archived.

There is probably a strong case for finding other criteria of
'prominence' for societies (from the "South" or "developing world")
which may still be largely oral societies... forget about being
written ... not to speak of being digitised!

Where, for instance, would unrecorded and non-digitised traditional
knowledge fit into the Wikipedia? We're having the same problem with
patents here in India. Unless something is recorded (and
understandable as such to someone in a Western patents office), is it
not being considered as "prior knowledge". So the Indian solution is
to translate tonnes of traditional knowledge into English, and
digitise it! But obviously, the Wikipedia can't follow similar
criteria, for obvious reasons. FN

On 07/01/07, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> Sunday, January 7, 2007, 4:49:35 PM, Frederick wrote:
>
> > Maybe you're using the wrong search-term. I tried "Vikalp + film" on
> > Google, and got over 800. Results 1 - 10 of about 806 for Vikalp film.
> > (0.16 seconds)
>
> Looking at the ghits is useless. I think it's better to look for
> newspaper references:
>
> http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22Films+for+Freedom%22+Vikalp&sa=N&lnav=m&scoring=t
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php


subject: [WikiEN-l] New bot up for RFA

body:
On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:18:50 -0500, "xaosflux" <xaosflux at gmail.com>
wrote:

>FYI: A proposal to grant sysop rights to an automated account is
>currently being discussed at [[Wikipedia:Requests for
>adminship/ProtectionBot]].

And a very fine idea it is, too.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Ninomy

subject: [Wiktionary-l] (no subject)

body:
---------------------------------
Yahoo! JAPAN Search Word Ranking 2006


from_name: George Herbert

body:
On 1/7/07, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/7/07, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > That's just begging for a "somebody set us up the bomb" type response.
>
> We get signal.

Commit now.

For great justice.

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert at gmail.com


from_name: Roberto Alfonso

body:
Hi there,

Personally, I prefer to prod articles with notability asserted but no way
to verify that. In these "cases", I also check if the Wikipedia in the
language related to the article (in this case, hi.wikipedia.org) has an
entry about this topic.

I haven't, but maybe I should suggest creating an article in the user's
native language. In the same way as a Google test fails, an AFD may also
fail due the inability of users to check the claims.

Oh, once I even posted a note at WikiProject India to get some feedback
about Mair Rajputs :-)

Roberto / ReyBrujo

On 1/7/07, Frederick Noronha <fred at bytesforall.org> wrote:
> Hi all, I'm from India, a contributor to the Wikipedia. In recent
> times, the 'mortality' of new Wikipedia entries seems to be higher
> than usual. While one can understand the need for abundant caution,
> it's also important to allow for a diversity of concerns and issues in
> this space.
>
> Should we presume that because an initiative is not very visible in
> cyberspace (okay, we are under-digitised societies!) that it is not
> prominent or noteworthy? See as one example:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikalp This is a campaign against
> censorship of documentary film in India, one which has the
> participation of about 250 documentary film-makers.
>
> There must be some way out. Your suggestions would be welcome. FN
> --
> FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
> http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
> http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Roberto Alfonso                         rpgrca at labint.frba.utn.edu.ar
Rhynox, the Mighty Rockfriend, Thane of the Hill Dwarves and Mythical
Blacksmith, legend, male dwarf         genesis.tekno.chalmers.se:3011


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Listinterwikis

references:
<ens32r$ato$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<7c2a12e20701071633p44cdec5dlac415feae4cb13cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<ens75j$k6s$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<b8ceeef70701072152v63fc3d91x3551b2ada651e584@mail.gmail.com>

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Steve Bennett wrote:
> Why exactly do we have these "interwiki" links that go to projects
> with no connection to WikiMedia? Why not just use templates:
>
> {{youtube|foo}} (which might expand to
> [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v={{{1}}}|{{{1}}} at YouTube.com]
>
> rather than
>
> [[YouTube:foo]]
>
> for instance.
>
> Why is it preferable that they be in the software itself?

The interwiki link system (and a bunch of the items in the list) predate
the existence of MediaWiki; we inherited it from UseModWiki which was
used for Wikipedia's first year.

These days, templates may well be the best way to handle such.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
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from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2007-01-08

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

This is MediaWiki version 1.9alpha (r18949).
Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/maintenance/parserTests.txt"...
Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test Basic section headings... FAILED!
Running test Section headings with TOC... FAILED!
Running test Handling of sections up to level 6 and beyond... FAILED!
Running test Resolving duplicate section names... FAILED!
Running test Template with sections, __NOTOC__... FAILED!
Running test __NOEDITSECTION__ keyword... FAILED!
Running test Link inside a section heading... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test Fuzz testing: Parser14... FAILED!
Running test Fuzz testing: Parser14-table... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Don't fall for the self-closing div... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Always escape literal '>' in output, not just after '<'... FAILED!
Running test Inclusion of !userCanEdit() content... FAILED!
Running test Out-of-order TOC heading levels... FAILED!
Running test -{}- tags within headlines (within html for parserConvert())... FAILED!

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Poem/poemParserTests.txt"...

   8 previously failing test(s) now PASSING! :)
      * Thumbnail image caption with a free URL
      * BUG 1887: A ISBN with a thumbnail
      * BUG 1887: A RFC with a thumbnail
      * BUG 1887: A mailto link with a thumbnail
      * BUG 1887: A <math> with a thumbnail- we don't render math in the parsertests by default,
so math is not stripped and turns up as escaped <math> tags.
      * Image caption containing another image
      * Bug 3090: External links other than http: in image captions
      * Fuzz testing: image with bogus manual thumbnail
   3 new PASSING test(s) :)
      * Transclusion of default MediaWiki message
      * Transclusion of nonexistent MediaWiki message
      * Raw output of variant escape tags (R flag)
  12 previously passing test(s) now FAILING! :(
      * Basic section headings
      * Section headings with TOC
      * Handling of sections up to level 6 and beyond
      * Resolving duplicate section names
      * Template with sections, __NOTOC__
      * __NOEDITSECTION__ keyword
      * Link inside a section heading
      * Fuzz testing: Parser14
      * Fuzz testing: Parser14-table
      * Inclusion of !userCanEdit() content
      * Out-of-order TOC heading levels
      * -{}- tags within headlines (within html for parserConvert())
Passed 470 of 501 tests (93.81%)... FAILED!


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia jumps _into_ the top 10 (Oskar Sigvardsson)

body:
On 1/7/07, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
> > From: "Oskar Sigvardsson" <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com>
> >> Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
> >>> I guess I don't understand why Wikipedians would care about this,
> >>> apart from preening.
> >>>
> >>> Am I missing something?
> >>>
> >>> Will being in the top ten help us to write a better encyclopedia in
> >>> some way that being in the top 100 doesn't?
> >
> > Yeah, that, but there is also nothing wrong about being proud of your
> > work. We're in the top 10! We rule! Isn't that a great feeling?
>
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_law

Well, there is hubris, and then there is just good ole' healthy pride
in the work you are doing. It's a very depressing sort of attitude
that says that you shouldn't feel good about something great you have
accomplished. Hubris is when you think you are much more powerful than
you are, pride is when you feel good about something you've
accomplished. It's a big-ass difference.

--Oskar


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia jumps _into_ the top 10.

body:
geni wrote:
> On 1/7/07, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton at gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's no cheaper than other similar ISPs.
>
> I'm trying to work of if describeing an ISP as simular to AOL would
> constitute lible.
>

You know that AOL was the cause of the Endless September, right?

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> I'd like to reopen the discussion about whether we officially consider
> MediaWiki a project of the Wikimedia Foundation. Currently, the
> position of the Foundation on this issue appears somewhat ambiguous.
> While we run the Subversion repository, the website, the mailing
> lists, and pay the two lead developers, MediaWiki is listed, for
> example, on:
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Our_projects
>
> not as a Wikimedia project, but as a "related project." It is also not
> part of our usual list of projects. On the other hand, mediawiki.org
> carries the "A Wikimedia Project" button.

It doesn't bother me. Change the websites if you like, I can't see it
making one bit of difference to the management of the project. We all know
that you have to use a light touch when you're managing volunteers. Maybe
the Foundation could help with recruitment of developers, but I can't see
why the wording on the webpage should influence that activity.

I don't mean to start an argument. Erik, if you think it's important, then
I have no issue with that.

Nobody can deny the close relationship between Wikimedia and MediaWiki.
Some might worry about Wikimedia taking control of MediaWiki, which is
amusing considering the amount of influence MediaWiki developers have over
Wikimedia affairs. They have as much to fear from us as we do from them ;)

-- Tim Starling


from_name: JePe

subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Listinterwikis

body:
There is made a new special page "List interwikis", with some links to other
wikimedia project, but also other external links. They all have a $1 parameter
on the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Listinterwikis

What is the meaning of this page?

Hans (JePe)


from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Listinterwikis

body:
> Is there a wikimedia-page were we can give feedback about this or make requests
> for other interwiki links?

See the interwiki map at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_map
You can add comments and suggestions at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Interwiki_map and any meta admin
can add new interwiki links.

Angela


body:
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>   12 previously passing test(s) now FAILING! :(
>       * Basic section headings
>       * Section headings with TOC
>       * Handling of sections up to level 6 and beyond
>       * Resolving duplicate section names
>       * Template with sections, __NOTOC__
>       * __NOEDITSECTION__ keyword
>       * Link inside a section heading
>       * Fuzz testing: Parser14
>       * Fuzz testing: Parser14-table
>       * Inclusion of !userCanEdit() content
>       * Out-of-order TOC heading levels
>       * -{}- tags within headlines (within html for parserConvert())

Fixed in r18950.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Rob Church

body:
On 08/01/07, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> I believe the term is "mutually assured destruction" ;)

That's just begging for a "somebody set us up the bomb" type response.

Rob Church


subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Listinterwikis

body:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Listinterwikis
>>
>> What is the meaning of this page?
>
> It shows a list of all valid interwiki prefixes (e.g., [[pt:Quuz]]),
> along with the URLs they're associated with.  Did *you* know that
> [[acronym:mw]] makes a semi-internal link to
> http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=mw ?
> Now you do!

Aha.. I didn't know there are so much from this kind of links. I have tested
some links, some are linking to the wrong page on a website. For example
[[cache:abc]] doesn't give the google cache of abc, but it searches for the word
cache:abc.

Is there a wikimedia-page were we can give feedback about this or make requests
for other interwiki links?

Hans (JePe)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Listinterwikis

body:
> Aha.. I didn't know there are so much from this kind of links. I have tested
> some links, some are linking to the wrong page on a website. For example
> [[cache:abc]] doesn't give the google cache of abc, but it searches for the
> word cache:abc.

That's a wrong example, there's nothing wrong with it of course I see, it only
works for a link.. ;)

Hans (JePe)


from_name: Luna

subject:
[WikiEN-l] A quiet,
	peaceful email list for experienced en contributors?

body:
On 1/8/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The best thing to do for wikien-l is to start more good threads.

I'd agree, I think; if another list becomes "the place to talk," it seems to
me that all the complaints would just move over there. And *plus* we'd start
getting the fun accusations of caballery (mitigated if the archives are
public, but still present and plausible).

But anyway, if we want to see more good threads, there's an easy way to get
a few, indeed. ;)

-Luna


from_name: Junde Yu

subject: [Wikitech-l] Request for usage statistics

body:
Hi Everyone,

I would like to request for some usage and participation statistics from
Wikipedia. I am a student from Singapore working on my thesis on online
knowledge sharing and contribution with a particular focus on Singapore.

Wikipedia is a shining example of online knowledge sharing and
collaboration. I would like to know the amount of traffic to Wikipedia from
Singapore (can be filtered by IP), and what is the percentage of lurkers vs
contributors. If possible, I would like such statistics for a few more
notable countries for comparison.

I have obtained some statistics (http://www.nedworks.org/~mark/reqstats/)
from an administrator, but i don't understand the notations and i think it's
only general statistics, not sorted by physical location.
My purpose is to back my hypothesis that users from Singapore and generally
Asia, contribute less by metrics of the ration of lurkers against
contributors/wikipedians. My thesis aims to analyse such a situation and
suggest recommendations.
I hope this request is not too much of a hassle. I am a honours student in
Communications and Media from the National Unviersity of Singapore (
www.nus.edu.sg). I can also be contacted at junde at nus.edu.sg

Thank You & Regards,
Yu Junde


subject: [Wikitech-l] Mobile device testing

body:
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Simetrical's been doing some work on the handheld stylesheet lately,
which brings me to the subject of testing MediaWiki in actual
mobile/handheld browsers.

I stuck a few notes up the other day on the subject of testing with
emulators:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mobile_browser_testing

To summarize real quick:

* Opera Mini can be tested in any desktop web browser via a Java applet
that Opera provides

* IE Mobile / Pocket IE can in theory be tested in an emulator that
Microsoft provides (for Windows PCs), but I haven't gotten networking to
work so haven't been able to reach a wiki with it

If someone can get the Windows Mobile/PocketPC/Windows CE/whatever thing
working, or knows of good resources for testing other mobile
OSs/browsers, that would be welcome news!

Volunteers for testing on actual devices and donations of devices are
also welcome.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.9 branched; release tomorrow

body:
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Documentation needs some more updates before I roll up the release
packages, particularly the release notes and the upgrade information,
but I've gone ahead and branched 1.9 off from trunk to make sure it
doesn't get hit by another ten regressions by morning. ;)

The 1.9 release branch can be checked out via Subversion at:
http://svn.wikimedia.org/svnroot/mediawiki/branches/REL1_9/phase3

A few more testers to confirm that installation and upgrade work on
configurations other than developers' own machines before we make a
wider release would be welcome, so don't be shy about testing it. :)

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
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from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject:
[WikiEN-l] SCHEDULING FIX please read Re: London Wikimeet with
 added Jimbo: Wednesday 10 Jan, Montagu Pyke, WC2H 0BP

body:
So my brain was broken when I said "Wednesday" because what I meant was
"the last night of my stay in London" which is Tuesday.  I am speaking
at the London School of Economics Tuesday evening, so a pub near there
would be grand.

I botched this, I am sorry.

#David Gerard wrote:
> No-one else has picked a pub, so let's pick the one we tried for last
> time, which was, ahh, shut. But should be open now. Jimbo will be in
> town for this one.
>
> Montagu Pyke
> 105?107 Charing Cross Rd
> London WC2H 0BP
> http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/pubfinder/details.php?OutletNumber=644
>
> It's a Wetherspoon, so they'll have a drinkable real ale and some
> mediocre food.
>
> Tubes: Leicester Square, Covent Garden, Tottenham Court Road,
> Piccadilly Circus, Charing Cross.
>
> It's right in the centre of London, everything is near everything.
> I'll be getting there sevenish after work. If others will be earlier,
> please say so.
>
> I'll just note this on the wiki as well ...
>
>
> - d.
>
MO


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] SCHEDULING FIX please read Re: London Wikimeet with
 added Jimbo: Wednesday 10 Jan, Montagu Pyke, WC2H 0BP


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Auction (Was: alternatives)

body:
--- effe iets anders <effeietsanders at gmail.com> wrote:
> What about an auction. I dont know whether there is interesting stuff enough
> to collect, and I dont expect thousends of dollars out of it, but wouldn't
> it be fun for the community to have something like an auction? People can
> give stuff that could be "cool to have" for the auction, to the foundation,
> and the person that bids the highest amount of money, can get the thing. For
> instance, I would be thinking of a postcard witht he signatures of all
> boardmembers, a used cigarette of oscar (no, not really, please come up with
> something more fun! :P ) or maybe even approach famous people to donate
> something that belongs to them for this cause. The stuff can varie to
> everything, but should be intensively prepared probably.
>
> Would this be fun for the community? Would it be creating some money to the
> foundation, would it be worth while? Are there maybe more ideas in this
> trend, that together get a meaningfull amount of money together?
>
> I understand of course it wont be possible anymore for this very
> fundraising, but I think it would be an idea for the next one. I'm not sure
> whether the foundation should "lower" itself to this level, or maybe it
> explicitely *should*. Please shoot! :)

The fundcom has seriously considered both online and live auctions. Nothing concrete has been
planned or decided yet, but I don?t see any reason why we would not want to add that to our
fundraising mix. eBay, citing one popular example but in no way committing us to using them, even
has a special auctioning method designed specifically for non-profits.
http://givingworks.ebay.com/

-- mav

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Marc Riddell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Help!

body:
I don't know where else to turn for input on this. I closed out of Wikipedia
last evening - everything was fine. This morning, I tried to access it and
the entire page is a mess. The WP Globe and contents selections are
superimposed over the page, and I don't have access to the log-in or other
such buttons. I tried to access WP via a Google search, and got the same
thing.

Is anyone else experiencing this? How can I fix it?

Help!

Marc Riddell


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising and site notice

body:
Hoi,
The problem with your answer is that the proposal was brought as a way
of making some serious money. Now you complain because I destroyed the
basic assumption that a fanpedia will make sufficient money to make a
difference. You now state that you do not have a clue how much money is
needed but also that is does not need to be the only source of revenue.
My problem with the whole argumentation against "advertisements" and the
arguments used by the people who sabotaged the fundraiser is that they
do not, have not come up with any believable alternatives. I have been
asked is there no compromise .. My answer to that is that I do not want
advertisement per se, I want enough funding for the Wikimedia Foundation
in order to be able to continue to grow. For a compromise there is a
need to water down positions. The question is therefore: are you willing
to sacrifice our growth by preventing the  corresponding need for funding?

There is another reason why the proposal will not work. In the current
Wikipedia projects we have some latitude when we have a picture that is
a copyvio and bring it as part of what people call "fair use". When we
explicitly have these fan sites to make money, there is no room to
wiggle any more.

Now consider, a website with Pokemon stuff without a picture of
charmander .. how is that to make us money ?

Thanks,
    GerardM

Peter van Londen schreef:
> I think this idea doesn't deserve such an answer, but hey I asked for it:
> 1) I have not said that it should be the only way of funding, I think it
> would help though as one out of the several funding possibilities to
> generate the amount of cash, which you envision.
> 2) Communities have to grow. This was the same with Wikipedia, Wikibooks and
> so on. I don't see why a Fanpedia would not grow.
> 3) Fanstuff is a part of Wikipedia. There are people fully devoted to these
> mini-projects, they would move to the new project, even more when they share
> the same ideals as we have.
> 4) I have no idea how much cash it could or would generate. People involved
> in Wikia might have an answer though.
> 5) Until now I have heared answers why it would not work, but not much
> answers which say what *would* work to raise to at least 1.5 million per
> fundraiser. There are not many acceptable ideas, are there? I see your point
> in the necessity of  loads of money, but there must be alternatives for
> advertising on all projects.
>
> This is the core of the proposal: we have one project which generates cash
> so the other projects can be funded without advertising. It doesn't have to
> be fanstuff, but that is popular and will generate a lot of traffic and
> therefore money. It might also help keep editors who have a problem with
> advertising on the projects.
>
> I still don't understand the problems and would like to ask if we could make
> a pilot-project. Let's say on the dutch projects and then see how this would
> develop.
>
> Kind regards
> Londenp
>
>
>
>
> 2007/1/7, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>:
>
>> Hoi,
>> In your assertion that Wikia is doing good with this way of funding, you
>> immediately indicate what the problem is with the proposal; it is being
>> done and quiet successfully by others (not only Wikia). The problem with
>> the proposal is also that in order to benefit from the proposal, the WMF
>> has to seriously invest in these projects. It must because this is then
>> how we make some of our money. The people who are not interested in the
>> "fanstuff" will not be interested in doing this and seriously, why would
>> the people who ARE interested in this stuff be willing to work on this;
>> the Wikipedia crowd exorcised them into another project? Why should they
>> be willing to do profit the WMF, when they can go elsewhere to nice
>> established communities..
>>
>> We know how much money the Foundation needs.. It needs $1.500.000,- at
>> this moment in time.. Do you really think the fanstuff proposal will
>> make us the money that will be sufficient for the /increased /need for
>> money of the Foundation that is the consequence of the growth of its
>> projects?? This does not even consider the investments we would like to
>> make to make a difference in other ways (administrative for instance) If
>> you think the scheme will work for all this, please show us the math.
>>
>> You explicitly asked for people to consider the proposal.. Sorry, to be
>> this dismissive.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>     GerardM
>>
>>
>> Peter van Londen schreef:
>>
>>> GerardM and community
>>>
>>> I do agree with your view. I also think that lack of funds is a serious
>>> issue and I don't thank the opposition to have achieved not doing more
>>> matching donations this fundraiser.
>>>
>>> I do disagree with you that there is no serious alternative. There is
>>>
>> and it
>>
>>> is brought up in a separate thread by Teun Spaans (
>>>
>>>
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026545.html
>> ).
>>
>>> It is a separate project aimed at publishing fanstuff with adds (which
>>>
>> is
>>
>>> now part a popular part of every Wikipedia), so that the other projects
>>>
>> can
>>
>>> do without adds and we still have money to fund all projects and indeed
>>> expand on some further ideas.
>>>
>>> I don't understand that not more persons seem to be willing to judge on
>>>
>> this
>>
>>> idea? I don't care if thorough consideration will have a negative
>>>
>> outcome,
>>
>>> if there would be enough reason no to have a Fanpedia, but it is an
>>> alternative!! And until know it seems to be discarded. Please think
>>>
>> about it
>>
>>> and comment on that idea, it is worth considering. It seems that Wikia
>>>
>> is
>>
>>> doing good with this way of funding.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Londenp


list: textbook-l

from_name: John McC

subject: [Textbook-l] Wikibook User Arbitration

body:
I don't object to either oversight or arbitration (in
fact I think both are necessary), but the format here
is truly appalling. For one thing, the
"plaintiff/defendant" structure is unnecessarily
hostile, made even more so because it's really unclear
who the plaintiffs and defendants are. Are we
reviewing my block? Panic's behavior? If (as it seems)
we are reviewing Panic's behavior, it seems a bit
strange to name me as the "plaintiff": I'm not
involved in an editorial dispute with Panic... my role
has been as a mediator and later arbitrator of a
dispute that's been going on for years without any
previous arbitration of constructive mediation.

Worse, this has devolved into what looks more like an
inquisition than anything else.

What we will suffer in the long term is an even
stronger reticence on the part of administrators to
get involved in content disputes (I for one will
certainly say "no" next time around). This particular
dispute had gone on unaddressed for far longer than it
should have been, and while this arbitration might end
up bringing a resolution to this particular issue,
it's going to make it a lot harder to address the next
one.

--- Andrew Whitworth <wknight8111 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I agree with Dragontamer (although I'm sure
> everybody already knows my
> opinions on this matter). A user was blocked for
> misbehavior, and he
> complained about it. I can't imagine any user
> (besides a vandal) getting
> blocked and not complaining. This doesnt mean that
> every instance needs to
> become some kind of arbitration nightmare. What I
> don't see, besides Panic's
> plea, is a reason to review or even overturn
> SBJohnny's decision. People who
> make bold decisions to benefit the project should be
> rewarded, and I dont
> think we should be introducing unnecessary oversight
> into our system.
>
> --Andrew Whitworth (Whiteknight)
>
>
>
> >*Sigh* it was only a matter of time. Get a bunch of
> people working
> >together, and people will suddenly not want to work
> together for
> >whatever reason :-/
> >
> >I have not looked at the current issue (in fact,
> this is the first
> >time I have heard of it. But I feel that in this
> specific case,
> >community consensus may be a bad thing. Eventually,
> there may be
> >groups of users vs other groups of users. Maybe
> Jimbo or some other
> >person would have to step in there.
> >
> >Oy, this is a whole new can-o-worms in Wikibooks
> policy...
> >
> >--Dragontamer
> >_______________________________________________
> >Textbook-l mailing list
> >Textbook-l at wikimedia.org
>
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Your Hotmail address already works to sign into
> Windows Live Messenger! Get
> it now
>
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://get.live.com/messenger/overview
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Help!

body:
> From: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:42:18 +0100
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Help!
>
> Are you using a full screen window? What is your browser and its version?
>
> Mgm

Yes, I'm in full screen. I'm using Internet Explorer, 5.1. This just
happened overnight! I've been working in Wikipedia for over a year now.

Marc
>
>
> On 1/8/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> I don't know where else to turn for input on this. I closed out of
>> Wikipedia
>> last evening - everything was fine. This morning, I tried to access it and
>> the entire page is a mess. The WP Globe and contents selections are
>> superimposed over the page, and I don't have access to the log-in or other
>> such buttons. I tried to access WP via a Google search, and got the same
>> thing.
>>
>> Is anyone else experiencing this? How can I fix it?
>>
>> Help!
>>
>> Marc Riddell
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Rory Stolzenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] New bot up for RFA

body:
On 1/8/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What's the point of showing everyone the code? Are we afraid the owner is
> going to abuse the bot?
>
> Mgm
>
>
> On 1/8/07, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/8/07, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I can imagine how that can be benefit; it'd allow for public auditing
> of
> > the
> > > code.
> > >
> > > Problem is, if you let everyone see it, you let EVERYONE see it --
> even
> > the
> > > people who will take a look at it and figure out how to compromise the
> > bot.
> >
> > Yup. Historical consensus is that the advantages outweigh the
> > disadvantages. See [[Security through obscurity]].
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >

No, (if the owner was going to abuse it, he might as well do it on her own
account, since he'd be desysopped and banned either way). We want it
released because it's good if a lot of people review the code so more people
can spot potential weaknesses, and fix them.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Help!

body:
On 1/8/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > From: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:42:18 +0100
> > To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Help!
> >
> > Are you using a full screen window? What is your browser and its
> version?
> >
> > Mgm
>
> Yes, I'm in full screen. I'm using Internet Explorer, 5.1. This just
> happened overnight! I've been working in Wikipedia for over a year now.
>
> Marc
> >
> >
> > On 1/8/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't know where else to turn for input on this. I closed out of
> >> Wikipedia
> >> last evening - everything was fine. This morning, I tried to access it
> and
> >> the entire page is a mess. The WP Globe and contents selections are
> >> superimposed over the page, and I don't have access to the log-in or
> other
> >> such buttons. I tried to access WP via a Google search, and got the
> same
> >> thing.
> >>
> >> Is anyone else experiencing this? How can I fix it?
> >>
> >> Help!
> >>
> >> Marc Riddell
> >>

Try CTRL-F5.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Help!

body:
> From: "Rory Stolzenberg" <rory096 at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:38:36 -0500
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Help!
>
> On 1/8/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
>>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:42:18 +0100
>>> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Help!
>>>
>>> Are you using a full screen window? What is your browser and its
>> version?
>>>
>>> Mgm
>>
>> Yes, I'm in full screen. I'm using Internet Explorer, 5.1. This just
>> happened overnight! I've been working in Wikipedia for over a year now.
>>
>> Marc
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/8/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't know where else to turn for input on this. I closed out of
>>>> Wikipedia
>>>> last evening - everything was fine. This morning, I tried to access it
>> and
>>>> the entire page is a mess. The WP Globe and contents selections are
>>>> superimposed over the page, and I don't have access to the log-in or
>> other
>>>> such buttons. I tried to access WP via a Google search, and got the
>> same
>>>> thing.
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone else experiencing this? How can I fix it?
>>>>
>>>> Help!
>>>>
>>>> Marc Riddell
>>>>
>
>
> Try CTRL-F5.

I am VERY computer challenged. What does that mean & how do I do it?

Marc
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Help!

body:
> From: Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 08:42:09 -0500
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Help!
>
>
>
>> From: "Rory Stolzenberg" <rory096 at gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:38:36 -0500
>> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Help!
>>
>> On 1/8/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
>>>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:42:18 +0100
>>>> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Help!
>>>>
>>>> Are you using a full screen window? What is your browser and its
>>> version?
>>>>
>>>> Mgm
>>>
>>> Yes, I'm in full screen. I'm using Internet Explorer, 5.1. This just
>>> happened overnight! I've been working in Wikipedia for over a year now.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/8/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know where else to turn for input on this. I closed out of
>>>>> Wikipedia
>>>>> last evening - everything was fine. This morning, I tried to access it
>>> and
>>>>> the entire page is a mess. The WP Globe and contents selections are
>>>>> superimposed over the page, and I don't have access to the log-in or
>>> other
>>>>> such buttons. I tried to access WP via a Google search, and got the
>>> same
>>>>> thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is anyone else experiencing this? How can I fix it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Help!
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc Riddell
>>>>>
>>
>>
>> Try CTRL-F5.
>
> I am VERY computer challenged. What does that mean & how do I do it?
>
> Marc

OK. I figured out Control F5. I tried it & it didn't fix the problem.

Marc
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 08/01/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <hildanknight at gmail.com> wrote:

> While working on articles about Singaporean movies, I've encountered a
> similar problem: difficulty finding references due to systemic bias.
> Some seem to have the impression that Singaporean = non-notable. I've
> seen articles on many Singaporean topics, which no Singaporean would
> contest the notability of, get nominated for deletion, under the claim
> of non-notability.
> That Wikipedia suffers from systemic bias is not surprising.

This may be worth politely noting on WT:AFD.

- d.


from_name: Silas Snider

subject: [WikiEN-l] Help!

body:
One problem -- Microsoft has stopped supporting internet explorer on
the mac at all and has removed all download links from their site.

Sincerely,
Silas Snider

On 1/8/07, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikienl at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/8/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > I don't know where else to turn for input on this. I closed out of Wikipedia
> > last evening - everything was fine. This morning, I tried to access it and
> > the entire page is a mess. The WP Globe and contents selections are
> > superimposed over the page, and I don't have access to the log-in or other
> > such buttons. I tried to access WP via a Google search, and got the same
> > thing.
> >
> > Is anyone else experiencing this? How can I fix it?
>
> First of all: please upgrade to the latest version of IE if possible.
> Many modern Web features are not supported by IE5.  I will fix this
> mistake immediately, but other website authors might not be so quick
> to respond.  Not many website authors have IE5 installed to test with.
>
> Second of all: this is an error on my part.  I changed the format of
> the Monobook stylesheet to add better support for handhelds, but
> unfortunately the way I chose to do so was problematic for very old
> browsers.  I'll fix it now.  It might be an hour or two until this is
> fixed on-site.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Silas Snider is a proud member of the Association of Wikipedians Who
Dislike Making Broad Judgements About the Worthiness of a General Category
of Article, and Who Are In Favor of the Deletion of Some Particularly Bad
Articles, but That Doesn't Mean They are Deletionist
(AWWDMBJAWGCAWAIFDSPBATDMTD) , and the Harmonious
Editing Club of Wikipedia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


from_name: Jeff Raymond

subject: [WikiEN-l] New bot up for RFA

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> What's the point of showing everyone the code? Are we afraid the owner is
> going to abuse the bot?

What's the point of hiding the code?  Why does it have to be kept a secret?

And yes, I know there's discussion at the RfA talk page, but "vandals
might use the code" is a poor rationale for not keeping it open.  There's
no good reason to keep it secret, but the headcount is going in the
support column regardless, and that's a shame that it doesn't look like
the arguments regarding openness of the code (suddenly the "we shouldn't
accept things that are less free" folks are quiet) are going to gain any
traction.

-Jeff


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

body:
Isn't that what the mailing list moderators are supposed to keep an eye on?

Mgm

On 1/8/07, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I notice that lately this mailing list seems to be almost overrun
> with a lot of noise: complaints about blocking, diatribes about
> perceived wrongs, requests of various kinds. Whereas what I would
> really like is a place where the most committed and experienced
> Wikipedians can discuss more serious issues in a bit of depth: where
> the project is going, recurring problems at a more abstract level,
> general issues more distilled than "omg [[foo.com]] is so crap!" etc.
>
> Is there such a list, or place to talk? Is there interest in creating one?
>
> There is certainly a need for the current list, to allow such
> day-to-day discussions to take place, but somewhere to escape the
> noise and engage in a bit of deeper reflection would be nice.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Help!

body:
> From: "David Gerard" <dgerard at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:22:37 +0000
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>,  "Wikimedia
> developers" <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Help!
>
> On 08/01/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I'm in full screen. I'm using Internet Explorer, 5.1. This just
>> happened overnight! I've been working in Wikipedia for over a year now.
>
>
> On a Mac, right? Do you have Firefox, Safari or Camino installed? Does
> it do the same in any of those?

No. I have none of these that I know of. No matter how I try to access WP,
whether from Google or any other source, the Globe & Site Table of Contents
stays superimposed over everything.

Marc
>
> (It's possible a subtle CSS change on the front page has messed things
> up in IE Mac 5.1.)
>
> (cc'ing to wikitech-l. Original problem: "I closed out of Wikipedia
> last evening - everything was fine. This morning, I tried to access it
> and the entire page is a mess. The WP Globe and contents selections
> are superimposed over the page, and I don't have access to the log-in
> or other such buttons. I tried to access WP via a Google search, and
> got the same thing.")
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Joseph Reagle

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fwd:  New mailing list address

body:
I don't know if this will affect MARC, but I don't see anything in the MARC
archive since Jan 6 when the switch happened. All WP lists have shifted to
this new system:
  http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=wikien-l&r=1&b=200701&w=2

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: [Wikipedia-l] New mailing list address
Date: Saturday 06 January 2007 10:27
From: "Mark Ryan" <ultrablue at gmail.com>
To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org

-e ::Archived at:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?i=a4a70770701060727y5101a0dmbe0313dd945e58e0 at mail.gmail.com

Hello, Wikipedia-l subscribers.

In case subscribers to this mailing list haven't been informed on
other mailing lists, the email address of all Wikimedia mailing lists
has changed. The new email address for the Wikipedia-l mailing list is
wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org (note that that is a Wikimedia domain,
not Wikipedia, as it was before).

Please update any email filters you might have to reflect this new
email address, and use it for all of your correpsondences to the
mailing list. Emails sent to the old email address will continue to
reach the mailing list for now.

~Mark Ryan
WikiEN-l mailing list admin

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

-------------------------------------------------------

--
Regards,          http://www.mit.edu/~reagle/
Joseph Reagle     E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65  BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E