from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.

body:
On 10/01/07, Nina Stratton <ninaeliza at gmail.com> wrote:

> Another example is the way a lot of folks self-nominate for RFAs. RFAs in
> general are kind of a thorny issue for me, because I don't really think that
> folks realize how much work it is (I'm not an admin, and have no wish to be
> one). I just wrote, for all intents and purposes, a short essay to a user
> who was a bit uncivil to a newbie because his RFA went so badly. I wish more
> folks could see that this adminship is just another "chore", and not some
> kind of shiny metallic cop-star (no offense intended to the fine folks in
> the police).

The harsh realities of using the mop and the expectations of one's
admin peers straighten people out pretty quickly as far as I can see.
I worry a lot less about RFAs because most of the ones I'm not sure
about actually work out pretty well. A few explode a bit messily, but
the community are getting good at spotting them and cleaning up the
mess and the AC is understandably reluctant but quite willing to
deadmin the sufficiently deserving.

> I don't know if it's healthy or not, but I tend to just assume I'm famous
> within the community, and leave it at that. I'm most certainly an extrovert
> and attention seeker, and have been all my life. I actually wanted to be a
> singer and musician, but wound up doing other things. I've also always had
> the dream of getting in on the "ground floor" of something huge (like
> Google, for example). I've pretty much achieved both my desire for attention
> and "fame", as well as my desire to be a pioneer in a grand-scale project.
> I'm pretty content.:)

Charles Matthews pointed me out to people as "the famous David Gerard"
at the wikimeet last night. I'd probably prefer "notorious." OTOH,
before Wikipedia I'd never been in a position to have to apologise to
the people of an entire country before ...

> > The Herostratus approach? I feel that this one only applies to a
> > limited number of our more persistent Vandals.

> True, but it also  applies to a lot of  trolls .  See *&"&*!"?^%&!"^(*"!*&(*@@@@@@@@@@@@@_________
NO CARRIER


list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: teun spaans

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimeet Rotterdam with board

body:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Delft and
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Delft
have some more up to date pix, though they don't convey the atmosphere
very well.

(But I'm not NPOV, in this, as one of my sons lives in Delft)

On 1/10/07, Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/10/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Frankly, Rotterdam is awful. If you have time, do pay a visit to
> > Delft, it's about a quarter of an hour away by train or car. Lovely
> > old center.
>
> Ah.. Vermeer's view of Delft...
>
> Delphine
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Vermeer-view-of-delft.jpg
> --
> ~notafish
> NB. This address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
> this address will probably get lost.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... Notability

body:
On 10/01/07, Ian Tresman <it at knowledge.co.uk> wrote:

> Wikipedia's strength is that it has more articles than any other
> encyclopedia. It also has "Good article status" and "Featured article
> status" to further indicate quality.

As well as {{fact}}, {{unreferenced}} and {{npov}} - which I hold are
*very* important for the readers to see. Being honest about our
imperfections - which we are more painfully aware of than any outsider
could be - is part of our being useful to the reader.

- d.


list: wikien-l

from_name: James Hare

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Wrongfully blocked by admin who lies and on behalf
	of users trying to "own" articles

body:
No need to kick them while they're down.

On 1/10/07, Ilmari Karonen <nospam at vyznev.net> wrote:
>
> Parker Peters^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HEmperor Joshua A. Norton wrote:
> > Are you really Abi, or are you David?
> >
> > Parker
>
> Hee hee. :-)
>
> --
> Ilmari Karonen
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] test 2, ignore

body:
Test for devs.

- d.


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] mailing list weirdness

body:
On 10/01/07, Mark Bergsma <mark at nedworks.org> wrote:

> The From: line? How can you send a message to an address in the From:
> line? :)
> Implicit destination generally means that the list has been setup to
> check whether the mailing list address appears in either the To: or the
> CC: line, and in this case, it didn't.

I meant To: line :-) I can send from dgerard at gmail.com to both separately.

> But if you think something's wrong then I'll need more info, exact times
> (UTC), sender/receiver addresses, etc.

From: dgerard at gmail.com
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>,
<wikimediauk-l at wikimedia.org>,
Subject: test 2, ignore

Sent at 16:01 GMT = UTC

I used the old names for each list because they pop up in Gmail first
... you could of course say "don't do that, then" ;-) But those should
still work, shouldn't they?

The message in the wikien-l queue (which I'll leave there for you to
look at) has "Received: Wed Jan 10 16:01:29 2007", a blank subject and
blank body, and the reject message is "Blind carbon copies or other
implicit destinations are not allowed. Try reposting your message by
explicitly including the list address in the To: or Cc: fields."

- d.


subject: [Foundation-l] Board meeting in Rotterdam later this week

body:
On 10/01/07, Husky <huskyr at gmail.com> wrote:
> Florence wrote:

> > * Legal issues (saturday morning). Planning of the most urgent things to
> > deal with, in particular but not restricted to, trademarks, licence
> > inforcing, domain names, privacy policy...

> I would like to suggest that it would be nice if the board could also
> formulate an advice to the projects concerning the use of non-commercial
> images? That has been endlessly debated on many projects (esp. the Dutch
> Wikipedia) and any kind of advice would be immensly helpful.

I think the current advice is "avoid, they're not free content."

- d.


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third
 World

body:
Have you seen me contributing at all on articles on any wikipedia? I
only participate in discussions in the futile hope to be able to change
the minds of the masses.

Waerth

>If you don't believe in community processes, why do you still
>participate at all with Wikipedia?
>
>Mark
>
>On 10/01/07, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Stan Shebs wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Steve wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>There's no reason to pit pedia and library against one another, and simply
>>>>because the possibility exists that you can find said newspaper subscription
>>>>in a library doesn't create a reason against duplicating that information in
>>>>pedia. There are interested parties outside Londoners and Bostonians.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I think you mistake my meaning - I was saying that books and newspapers
>>>are an excellent, if unfashionable :-) , source of information worth
>>>adding to WP. Doesn't everybody else type into WP with book propped open
>>>in lap, or newspaper spread on floor?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I wish this were true ...... by (insert your deity here) I wish. This
>>was true of myself when I was still writing articles. I even went out
>>and bought more books on the subjects I was writing about to compare the
>>facts. But then you all of a sudden have to defend yourself against some
>>kiddie who only reads websites and found this one site on the net who
>>refutes your claims and because he cannot read books it is impossible to
>>convince him, even though you can quote 10 books as a source and he only
>>one derelict website the other kiddies will side with him because it is
>>on the web so it must be the truth.
>>
>>This is one of the reasons why I lost faith in community processes. The
>>masses can so many times be convinced of a wrong thing it is
>>unbelievable. Just because the masses say something or believe something
>>it isn't always the truth you see. On wikipedia what the masses think is
>>the truth is the truth.
>>
>>Waerth
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


from_name: Husky

body:
One of my friends calls Delft the 'Disneyland of Dutch history' because
there is so much to see that is related to Dutch history (the bullet that
killed William the Silent, the graves of all the Kings and Queens).

However, Rotterdam is certainly not awful. There are beautiful things to
see, such as the:
* Erasmusbrug: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Bridge<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Erasmusbrug_bij_avond.png>
* Museum Boijmans van Beuningen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Boijmans_Van_Beuningen<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Boijmans_Van_Beuningen>
* The Rem Koolhaas-designed Kunsthal.

And if you are even remotely interested in modern art you should really
visit the Gemeentemuseum in The Hague for the largest collection of Mondrian
paintings in the world.

-- Hay Kranen / [[User:Husky]]

On 1/10/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Delft and
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Delft
> have some more up to date pix, though they don't convey the atmosphere
> very well.
>
> (But I'm not NPOV, in this, as one of my sons lives in Delft)
>
> On 1/10/07, Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 1/10/07, teun spaans < teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Frankly, Rotterdam is awful. If you have time, do pay a visit to
> > > Delft, it's about a quarter of an hour away by train or car. Lovely
> > > old center.
> >
> > Ah.. Vermeer's view of Delft...
> >
> > Delphine
> > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Vermeer-view-of-delft.jpg
>
> > --
> > ~notafish
> > NB. This address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
> > this address will probably get lost.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: leon at vserver152.masterssystems.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] Adding hooks

body:
Am Dienstag 09 Januar 2007 00:16 schrieb Hans Musil:
> Well, I have written a small extension that provides a simple API to store
> custom data in the ParserOutput object and in the QuickTemplate object. In
> order to make use of it, I would like to have a hook in SkinTemplate.php
> right before the QuickTemplate is executed. Therefore, I had to patch
> SkinTemplate.php for getting the hook. See
> http://wikivoyage.org/tech/CustomData-Extension for detailed explanation.

I have added this hook at the place where the patch did
(http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=19063).
My version doesn't pass $wgOut because you should use it directly by globaling
it in the extension function.

Changed state of that thread to RESOLVED FIXED ;-)

-- Leon.


from_name: Ian Tresman

body:
>I tend to disagree. I have reliable sources giving the date of birth and
>death of my great-(x many) grandparents, as well as a few other facts of
>their lifes. Does that make them notable?

Sure, but no published source in which your grandparent is featured.

>I think the internet archive is a
>reliable source on the content of webpages. Does that mean every webpage on
>the internet archive is notable enough to get an article on Wikipedia? Every
>separate game of chess that has its notation published? Lab rat #2687?

I think there is a difference between mentioning something trivially,
and an article featuring something. There could be featured chess
games, which is different from a mere mention.

Regards,
Ian Tresman


from_name: Mark Bergsma

subject: [Wikitech-l] New mail servers leave many broken links

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 10/01/07, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The transfer of the the mailing list archives have
>> resulted in broken links throughout the projects.  Can
>> this somehow be fixed on the server side?  Can we
>> possibily keep copies of all archives up till now in
>> both places? If the links themselves have to be edited
>> is this something that can be done by a bot?  I don't
>> think it is a good idea to leave these links as 404
>> errors.
>
>
> It's an appallingly bad idea and needs fixing, yes. Rewrite rule on
> mail.wikipedia.org / mail.wikimedia.org ?

What are you talking about? There *is* one in place already, and has
always been.

Example, maybe?

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


subject: [Wikitech-l] mailing list weirdness

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> I just tried sending an email to both wikien-l and wikimediauk-l (both
> addresses in the From: line). I then got a message back saying the
> message was in the moderation queue because "Message has implicit
> destination". I'm a moderator on wikien-l, so I looked at the message
> and it had no subject and no body. Huh?
>
> Sending a message to wikien-l on its own worked fine ...

The From: line? How can you send a message to an address in the From:
line? :)

Implicit destination generally means that the list has been setup to
check whether the mailing list address appears in either the To: or the
CC: line, and in this case, it didn't.

But if you think something's wrong then I'll need more info, exact times
(UTC), sender/receiver addresses, etc.

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


from_name: Derek Hodgson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third
	World

body: FUCK YOU!  STOP SEND ME E-MAILS THAT I DON"T CARE ABOUT!


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.

body:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Luna [mailto:lunasantin at gmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2007 11:05 PM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.
>
>On 1/9/07, Christopher Thieme <cdthieme at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Something like that would probably explain a lot about the bitterness,
>> control issues, the incessant desire to be "right", etc. that some people
>> have when approaching the subject of editing.
>
>
>There's a goodly amount of ego involved, I think. Being able to say "I wrote
>that, it's on Wikipedia" is pretty cool, to me, and I imagine other people
>feel much the same way. Add into that a desire to feel "smart," and the need
>to feel right and accepted among these other "smart" people is at least a
>bit explained.
>
>Something along these lines, perhaps:
>http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AttentionSeeker
>

There are certain instances involving users who seek recognition and having been recognized, seek prerogatives based on their recognition. There is considerable community sentiment favoring such recognition and prerogatives.

Fred

>Or, there's always Penny Arcade's take:
>http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
>
>But yeah, a more serious study of some sort would probably have some nifty
>results. I'd be interested, at least.
>
>-Luna


subject: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.

body:
>As difficult as it may be to diagnose personality disorders or other neuropsychiatric peculiarities by one's online behaviour, such conclusions are all too often very, very obvious.
>
>Add to that ADHD and Asperger's syndrome, and you'll probably cover most of the relevant cases.
>
>By the way, there might be several case studies hidden in Wikipedia's user and talk pages, RFAR, this list, and private emails. What would be even more interesting were some sort of comprehensive and qualified analysis.
>
>Kosebamse
>--

There are significant privacy problems. We frequently don't know who a user is, nor is there any way of finding out. I suppose a researcher could contact users and ask them to participate in a study, but the sample would not be representative.

Fred


from_name: Thomas Dalton

subject: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.

body:
> What's more interesting to me is how Wikipedia pretty much "works", rather
> than the bits that don't work.

Absolutely. The slightest bit of common sense will tell you that you
cannot create a good encyclopedia by letting everyone and anyone edit
it... Wikipedia is an excellent proof of the fact that common sense is
a myth.


from_name: Steve Block

subject: [WikiEN-l] London pub meet report, Tue 9 Jan

body:
Nina Stratton wrote:
> I don't drink anymore, but it sounds fun! I particularly like all the
> "Angloisms" in your account. I'm such an Anglophile. I'm so glad you had
> fun. Take three aspirin, drink plenty of water,  and eat some protein. No
> hair of the dog for you my friends - back to work!

It's certainly the first time I've waited whilst a ferret relieves herself.

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.8/621 - Release Date: 09/01/07 13:37


from_name: Rob Church

subject: [Wikitech-l] User rights for ProtectionBot on en.wikipedia

body:
On 10/01/07, Ligulem <ligulem at pobox.com> wrote:
> Do we need a new user group for this on en.wikipedia? Maybe a new group
> "protect", containing the protect permission alone?

First of all, wait up - Werdna's working on something in a branch
which, if successful, will render ProtectionBot redundant.

Second of all, no, at this time, while we could add the groups in the
site configuration, we don't have a nice interface for granting groups
like that for non-stewards.

Rob Church


from_name: Jerome Banal

subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
Sounds more like CC-ND to me, unfortunately. :(
The image is not modifiable, is it?

Regards,
Jerome

2007/1/10, Dariusz Siedlecki <datrio at gmail.com>:
>
> On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My question is this: We have a custom-made picture license created along
> > time ago. It reads (I translated it to English from Hebrew):
> >
> > "This image was created by user:user-name. Free use for educational
> > purposes, with appropriate attribution is allowed. You may use this
> image
> > for any purpose (incl. commercial use) if the usage is given for free of
> > charge to the wide public, with appropriate attribution."
>
> I think yes, it sounds like CC-By-SA.
>
> --
> Pozdrawiam,
> Dariusz Siedlecki
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


from_name: Hans Musil

subject: [Wikitech-l] Adding hooks

body:
Thanks to Leon. Your version looks much better than my one. I originaly had passed $wgOut just because I don't like globals, but now, that's OK for me.

P.S.: I had to unsubscribe and re-subscribe with an other mail account because I had underestimated the volume of the list and it made overflow my mailbox on the Wikivoyage server.

Hans
--
Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen!
Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
cc-by-sa and cc-nd allows commecial use. cc-nc and cc-nc-nd do not.

Neither cc-nc, cc-nd nor cc-nd-nc are supposed to be used has they iether
can't be used commercially or can't be modified, so are not "free" in the
freedom meaning.

cc-by-sa, as far as I know, is fine here (but I am not sure your license is
a cc-by-sa...).

Regards,
Jerome

2007/1/10, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com>:
>
> Even though usage must be given for free? i.e the pictures cannot be sold
> commercially? Does this mean cc-by-sa doesn't allow to sell the images as
> well?
> Yoni
>
>
> On 1/10/07, Dariusz Siedlecki <datrio at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > My question is this: We have a custom-made picture license created
> along
> > > time ago. It reads (I translated it to English from Hebrew):
> > >
> > > "This image was created by user:user-name. Free use for educational
> > > purposes, with appropriate attribution is allowed. You may use this
> > image
> > > for any purpose (incl. commercial use) if the usage is given for free
> of
> > > charge to the wide public, with appropriate attribution."
> >
> > I think yes, it sounds like CC-By-SA.
> >
> > --
> > Pozdrawiam,
> > Dariusz Siedlecki
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


subject: [WikiEN-l] Deletions and double jeopardy

body:
> BTW, double jeopardy is already in existence in a practical sense see
> WP:SALT and you dont see many people complaining that its existense
> goes against the "consensus" model, why is it different for keeping
> articles?

Double jeopardy is the idea what once you've been found innocent you
can't be tried again. The existence of WP:SALT is analogous to not
giving convicted criminals an unlimited number of appeals. It is
possible to appeal a salting, anyway - just go to requests for
unprotection.


from_name: Dan Collins

body:
Derek Hodgson wrote:
> FUCK YOU!  STOP SEND ME E-MAILS THAT I DON"T CARE ABOUT!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
Then don't subscribe to the list? You might also read [[WP:NPA]],
[[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:AGF]], and [[WP:DICK]], as they are the most
important things ever written.

ST47

--
GnuPG key ID is 0x84189146 on subkeys.pgp.net

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subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

references:
<NMENLBGDKAFGBDHEPOBNGELEDGAA.erikzachte@infodisiac.com>
	<pan.2007.01.10.00.31.16.8480@ask.com>
	<9ab06f7e0701100408h7fcc7ffbpa976ecbb108912ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<fbad4e140701100511ya1e28fr9bd66770da26eb07@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 10/01/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> template code directly in the hardware. Also, Visual Basic for
> MediaWiki needs to be implemented.

You wash out your mouth with bleach this instant.

Rob Church


subject: [Wikitech-l] mailing list weirdness

body:
David Gerard wrote:

> I used the old names for each list because they pop up in Gmail first
> ... you could of course say "don't do that, then" ;-) But those should
> still work, shouldn't they?

The old addresses should still work, but this cannot be relied on.
People should really start using the new addresses now.

Still, I will try to make sure they keep working.

> The message in the wikien-l queue (which I'll leave there for you to
> look at) has "Received: Wed Jan 10 16:01:29 2007", a blank subject and
> blank body, and the reject message is "Blind carbon copies or other
> implicit destinations are not allowed. Try reposting your message by
> explicitly including the list address in the To: or Cc: fields."

Hrm, apparently the header rewriting I implemented yesterday evening
seems to somehow cause a problem during the pipe delivery to Mailman,
causing an empty message to be delivered to Mailman - which of course it
can't do much with.

Very weird. Could be a bug in Exim, I will have to investigate some
time. In the mean time I have implemented the header rewriting in
another way that does not cause this problem.

Thanks for the report,

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


subject: [Wikitech-l] New mail servers leave

body:
Birgitte SB wrote:

> Sorry if I am not describing this well. But on the the
> wiki's if there is an html link to a post in the
> mailing list archive it is now broken.  For example
> all the links on this page:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LSS/foundation-l-archives/2007_01_1-7
>
> But these links are all over all the wiki's as part of
> different disscussions, policies, etc.

Ok, so the problem is that there is indeed a redirect from the old
address to the new address, but some message article numbers seem to
have changed by the rebuild of the archive - at least for this month.

However if I look at LSS for December 2006, those addresses seem to
work. Hopefully the same will hold for all or most of the older messages
in the archive.

Unfortunately there isn't much we can do here without breaking other
stuff. If it's just for January 2007, I guess we'll have to live with it.

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


subject: [Wikitech-l] New mail servers leave

body:
Mark Bergsma wrote:

> Ok, so the problem is that there is indeed a redirect from the old
> address to the new address, but some message article numbers seem to
> have changed by the rebuild of the archive - at least for this month.
>
> However if I look at LSS for December 2006, those addresses seem to
> work. Hopefully the same will hold for all or most of the older messages
> in the archive.

Ok maybe I didn't look that well - for previous months you don't seem to
get a 404, but the message IDs seem to refer to totally different
messages - which is not too helpful.

Sigh...

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
The fact that Hebrew Wikipedia knows about these changes *now* instead of
*much earlier when these changes actually happened* is kind of disturbing.

On 1/10/07, Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Even though usage must be given for free? i.e the pictures cannot be
> sold
> > commercially? Does this mean cc-by-sa doesn't allow to sell the images
> as
> > well?
>
> Yes, and no.
>
> As I understand it, CC-BY-SA allows you to use the images to make a
> product (book, CD, DVD whatever) that you can sell. => Commercial use.
>
> However, the image must be "shared alike", ie. released under the same
> license. Which means that if I make a book with your image, I must be
> able to provide the source free of charge if you ask for it.
>
> So the real question about your phraseology is, what do you "really"
> mean with "allow commercial usage"?
>
> As *I* understand it, to allow commercial usage means that I can take
> your image and use it in a book and make money with it (with the book,
> not the image - really, what's the point of selling an image as stand
> alone if it's free elsewhere?)
>
> My take is that this license is indeed very close to CC-BY-SA. Anyone
> can use it on their commercial website, on their commercial brochure
> etc.
>
> The trick is if someone takes all those images and makes them into a
> CD and sells the CD. However, you could argue that you're making the
> people pay for the CD itself and the work that was put into gathering
> the images, not for the images themselves.
>
> Delphine
>
> --
> ~notafish
> NB. This address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
> this address will probably get lost.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


from_name: Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Club of New York

body:
>
> On 12/26/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> >
> > I will be in New York on the 26th of January and the 1st and 2nd of
> > February.  (i.e. two Fridays in a row).
> > Maybe the timing will be right for me to join the festivities...

Any developments on this?

"Newyorkbrad"


from_name: Ligulem

body:
On 10.01.2007 15:04, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
 >
> Mediawiki isn't built around fine-grained security.

But we could use the existing granularity of the software. In this case,
the existing granularity of MediaWiki fits very well (protect permission).

We just would need a group to access it in the install of en.wikipedia.
That's all.

Other permissions are already handed out separately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:UAL


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

references:
<NMENLBGDKAFGBDHEPOBNGELEDGAA.erikzachte@infodisiac.com>
	<pan.2007.01.10.00.31.16.8480@ask.com>
	<9ab06f7e0701100408h7fcc7ffbpa976ecbb108912ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<fbad4e140701100511ya1e28fr9bd66770da26eb07@mail.gmail.com>
	<e92136380701100943h76d56695wdc686f5780e870da@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 10/01/07, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/01/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> > template code directly in the hardware. Also, Visual Basic for
> > MediaWiki needs to be implemented.

> You wash out your mouth with bleach this instant.

But it is merely a simple matter of programming!

It would also be good if trusted users (say, anyone whose login is
over four days old) could run SQL directly on the en: database. I have
a few outer joins I really really need to check.

- d.


from_name: Dariusz Siedlecki

subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> My question is this: We have a custom-made picture license created along
> time ago. It reads (I translated it to English from Hebrew):
>
> "This image was created by user:user-name. Free use for educational
> purposes, with appropriate attribution is allowed. You may use this image
> for any purpose (incl. commercial use) if the usage is given for free of
> charge to the wide public, with appropriate attribution."

I think yes, it sounds like CC-By-SA.

--
Pozdrawiam,
Dariusz Siedlecki


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
On 10/01/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> It would also be good if trusted users (say, anyone whose login is
> over four days old) could run SQL directly on the en: database. I have
> a few outer joins I really really need to check.

In an ideal world, you could use the toolserver for it.

The problem with trusting people to run even select queries on the
English Wikipedia database is that trust does not equal sufficient SQL
ability to write queries which do not suck up all our time, even with
Tim's natty timeout script.

Rob Church


from_name: A. Özgür Erdemli

body:
While we consider the licenses we should not think only from Wikipedia point
of view. The philosophical idea is to sum all knowledge and give them to
everybody. An article here will be later maybe inside a mobile phone or in a
book or in a CD or on the television or carved on a stone... in anywhere in
the world. So licenses will get more and more complicated if you consider
all this possibilities. I believe, instead of adding new less free image
licenses, we should even get rid of Fair Use, and stick only to
*Free
*PD
*GFDL
*CC-by
*CC-by-sa
as commons do. Ohh yes, we will end up with less images, but we will get
free versions of some of them anyways. And we will not have any risk for the
future from license point of view. "Pure Free Content." Use is as much as
you want when you need. I don't want any complication that will stop me
sharing any knowledge from here. Isn't this our goal?

Dbl2010

On 1/10/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/10/07, effe iets anders <effeietsanders at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear David,
> >
> > knowing the Dutch language Wikipedia-community, I think almost everybody
> > will agree with me that it is no "easy" community. some communitymembers
> are
> > now trying to approve a non-free license on the Dutch language
> Wikipedia,
> > the CC-NC. This license is imcompatible with the GNU FDL, and I think
> that
> > it is, due to GFDL, not allowed to use it on Wikipedia on articles. It
> is
> > not something to have an opinion about really, it is or it isn't allowed
> by
> > GFDL. You can at most have another view on the license. I think it is
> very
> > very important that the Foundation makes it clear for once and for ever
> what
> > licenses are acceptable on the Wikimedia projects. It is very hard to
> > explain to people why one project thinks the use of NC (not to speak of
> fair
> > use) is allowed, and why other projects state it isnt. It's not even a
> > question of local law, it is about what is allowed by the GFDL license.
> >
>
> No we deal with that issue by useing the collective work clause (not
> it's proper name). Articles with images in are a collection of
> diffferent works thus the images can be under any lisence as far as
> the GFDL is concernded.
>
> > In the Dutch language community we have actually not a single expert on
> the
> > area of copyright and licenses. I doubt lot of other communities have.
> (With
> > an expert I mean someone who has studied law and is specialized in that
> > aera) So at the end people like you and me have to make this kind of
> > fundamental choises about licenses, even though we do not know what
> exactly
> > we are talking about, we are just guessing. (just assuming you are not
> one
> > of those experts, by coincidense) A lot of small communities are
> struggling
> > with this, and I think it would be very wise of the Foundtaioin to help
> > those communities, to help especially the Dutch language
> wikipedia-community
> > in this, as we have already enough to fight over, by getting a legal
> advice
> > with an expert, and make a choise in result of that. An advice would
> require
> > in my opinion a same amount of efford, so I really urge to "rules" from
> > above, although I am usually no big fan of that. So I second heartely
> Hay's
> > request, please bring some light in the darkness, and let the blind
> people
> > see again.
> >
>
> FSF publishes a list of lisences and describes them. While we
> dissagree over CC wikipedia tends to follow the defintions fairly
> closely:
>
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html
>
> Translations into a number of languages are linked to at the end.
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: howard chen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Use binary to represent varchar rather than UTF8

references:
<b66ddc900701090914k309b6844r9dc0fe7ce0bcef61@mail.gmail.com>
	<eo0nsu$c90$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<b66ddc900701091847p1cd536a4pdffd6fe51ca34c5c@mail.gmail.com>
	<ba1b6b9f0701092031t7dc90126ud1cf440a4f2d4cad@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 1/10/07, Andrew Dunbar <hippytrail at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/10/07, howard chen <howachen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 1/10/07, Ashar Voultoiz <hashar at altern.org> wrote:
> > > howard chen wrote:
> > > > in all table creation statments, such as
> > > >
> > > > CREATE TABLE `categorylinks` (
> > > >   `cl_from` int(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
> > > >   `cl_to` varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
> > > >   `cl_sortkey` varchar(255) binary NOT NULL default '',
> > > >   `cl_timestamp` timestamp(14) NOT NULL,
> > > >   UNIQUE KEY `cl_from` (`cl_from`,`cl_to`),
> > > >   KEY `cl_sortkey` (`cl_to`,`cl_sortkey`(128)),
> > > >   KEY `cl_timestamp` (`cl_to`,`cl_timestamp`)
> > > > ) TYPE=InnoDB;
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > why use binary to represent varchar, not UTF8?
> > >
> > > Brion answered that earlier:
> > >
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-l/2006-February/010267.html
> > >
> > > To quote him, utf8 in database will mostly:
> > >
> > > * Make indexes larger (3 bytes per character)
> > > * Cause failures if you use characters outside the BOM in page titles,
> > > usernames, etc.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
> > > http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
> > > IM: hashar at jabber.org  ICQ: 15325080
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> >
> > i would like to know if `wikipedia` is going to use this method in the future?
>
> I'm sure mediawiki will make use of proper utf-8 support when mysql has proper
> utf-8 support. Our users want to use Unicode characters beyond plane 1 and the
> current mysql utf-8 support does not make this possible.
>
> Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
> --
> http://linguaphile.sf.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

besides fully UTF8 support, using binary will have the advantages of
saving space for indexes, so will it also alter the decision?


body:
On 10.01.2007 18:16, Rob Church wrote:
> On 10/01/07, Ligulem <ligulem at pobox.com> wrote:
>> Do we need a new user group for this on en.wikipedia? Maybe a new group
>> "protect", containing the protect permission alone?
>
> First of all, wait up - Werdna's working on something in a branch
> which, if successful, will render ProtectionBot redundant.

Cool. I'm looking forward to read more about it.

> Second of all, no, at this time, while we could add the groups in the
> site configuration, we don't have a nice interface for granting groups
> like that for non-stewards.

My intention was to ask the stewards at

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_permissions#Miscellaneous_requests

assigning this special group in this special case.

With a pointer to the on-wiki consensus. Which we not yet have, but we
could build, provided we would have such a possibility.

A hen egg problem.


from_name: geni

subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> My question is this: We have a custom-made picture license created along
> time ago.

Arrrrrrrgg. There are enough free lisences:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html

>It reads (I translated it to English from Hebrew):
>
> "This image was created by user:user-name. Free use for educational
> purposes, with appropriate attribution is allowed.
> You may use this image
> for any purpose (incl. commercial use) if the usage is given for free of
> charge to the wide public, with appropriate attribution."
>
> From the point of view of the foundation, Is this license OK for usage in
> Wikipedia and her sisters?

The line "if the usage is given for free of charge" would appear to
conflict with past statements by the foundation figues and by en
standards at least make the lisence non free.

--
geni


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


from_name: Yoni Weiden

subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
Hi, I am Yoni, sysop on the Hebrew Wikipedia. en:user:Danny turned to our
village pump last week and updated us regarding licenses that are prohibited
by the foundation (i.e. non-commercial and educational only licenses). We
have been working to comply with his request ever since.

My question is this: We have a custom-made picture license created along
time ago. It reads (I translated it to English from Hebrew):

"This image was created by user:user-name. Free use for educational
purposes, with appropriate attribution is allowed. You may use this image
for any purpose (incl. commercial use) if the usage is given for free of
charge to the wide public, with appropriate attribution."


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
Hi, I am Yoni, sysop on the Hebrew Wikipedia. en:user:Danny turned to our
village pump last week and updated us regarding licenses that are prohibited
by the foundation (i.e. non-commercial and educational only licenses). We
have been working to comply with his request ever since.

My question is this: We have a custom-made picture license created along
time ago. It reads (I translated it to English from Hebrew):

"This image was created by user:user-name. Free use for educational
purposes, with appropriate attribution is allowed. You may use this image
for any purpose (incl. commercial use) if the usage is given for free of
charge to the wide public, with appropriate attribution."

>From the point of view of the foundation, Is this license OK for usage in
Wikipedia and her sisters?

Thanks,
Yoni
he:user:Yonidebest


from_name: teun spaans

body:
well, in addition to what I said before: if you can, let Oscars show
you around Rotterdam. That makes it worthwhile.

teun

On 1/10/07, Husky <huskyr at gmail.com> wrote:
> One of my friends calls Delft the 'Disneyland of Dutch history' because
> there is so much to see that is related to Dutch history (the bullet that
> killed William the Silent, the graves of all the Kings and Queens).
>
> However, Rotterdam is certainly not awful. There are beautiful things to
> see, such as the:
> * Erasmusbrug: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Bridge<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Erasmusbrug_bij_avond.png>
> * Museum Boijmans van Beuningen:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Boijmans_Van_Beuningen<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Boijmans_Van_Beuningen>
> * The Rem Koolhaas-designed Kunsthal.
>
> And if you are even remotely interested in modern art you should really
> visit the Gemeentemuseum in The Hague for the largest collection of Mondrian
> paintings in the world.
>
> -- Hay Kranen / [[User:Husky]]
>
> On 1/10/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Delft and
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Delft
> > have some more up to date pix, though they don't convey the atmosphere
> > very well.
> >
> > (But I'm not NPOV, in this, as one of my sons lives in Delft)
> >
> > On 1/10/07, Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 1/10/07, teun spaans < teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Frankly, Rotterdam is awful. If you have time, do pay a visit to
> > > > Delft, it's about a quarter of an hour away by train or car. Lovely
> > > > old center.
> > >
> > > Ah.. Vermeer's view of Delft...
> > >
> > > Delphine
> > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Vermeer-view-of-delft.jpg
> >
> > > --
> > > ~notafish
> > > NB. This address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
> > > this address will probably get lost.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Argis Rohat

subject:
[WikiEN-l] POV Intro (Re: Introduction to "Allegations of Israeli
	Apartheid")

body:
Re the lead to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid

WP:LEAD states that a good lead "should briefly summarize the most important
points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as
a concise version of the article." The problem with the current lead is that
it only summarizes the arguments against the "Israeli apartheid" allegation
without mentioning a single argument in favor of the phrase. This means the
intro is unbalanced and very POV. Either equal space should be given to pro
and anti-arguments or the arguments from either side should be removed from
the lead and left to the body of the article.

Unfortunately, the article is the subject of revert wars so there's a real
need for impartial admins to go in and mediate IMHO.

On 1/9/07, C. Currie <coreyjcurrie at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to draw the attention of readers to the current introduction
> of an article entitled "Allegations of Israeli Apartheid":
>
> "Allegations of Israeli apartheid draw a controversial analogy from South
Africa's treatment of non-whites during the apartheid era to
Israel's  treatment of Arabs living in the West Bank and Israel. Those who
reject the analogy argue that it has no basis in fact and is intended as
political slander to malign Israel. They say that legitimate Israeli
security needs justify the practices that prompt the analogy, and argue that
the practices of many other countries, to which the term is not applied,
more closely resemble South African apartheid"
>
> Some editors are of the opinion that this introduction is
> one-sided, arguing it lists the arguments of critics but not proponents,
is
> weighted toward one position, and goes beyond the succinct definitions
> usually favoured for Wikipedia introductions.  Other editors have opposed
> efforts to modify the section, arguing that the current version follows
the
> Manual of Style.
>
> This is obviously a contentious article, and accusations of partisanship
> have been made on both sides.  I would request that mailing list
> contributors review this dispute, and suggest fair and neutral wording.
>
> Thank you,
>
> CJCurrie
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Mark Clements

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
"Marco Schuster" <CDL-Klever at gmx.net> wrote in message
news:45A53693.90407 at gmx.net...
> David Gerard schrieb:
> > On 10/01/07, Rob Church
<robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/01/07, David Gerard
<dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >
> >
> >>> template code directly in the hardware. Also, Visual Basic for
> >>> MediaWiki needs to be implemented.
> >>>
> >
> >
> >> You wash out your mouth with bleach this instant.
> >>
> >
> >
> > But it is merely a simple matter of programming!
> >
> > It would also be good if trusted users (say, anyone whose login is
> > over four days old) could run SQL directly on the en: database. I have
> > a few outer joins I really really need to check.
> >
> I would suggest either using toolserver or downloading a database dump
> and play it in on your machine.
> And every user older than 4 days...it would attract vandals. Think of a
> really big SELECT, mixed with some JOINs and you put the server load to
> unusable...
>
> Marco

That's the whole point - so that vandals can query the database to find
pages that aren't on anybody's watchlist!

- Mark Clements (HappyDog)


from_name: oscar

body:
not the tall black one no: it's the first one:
http://tulipinnrotterdam.nl/default.aspx?Language=EN this one, at the
waterside ;-)

do be careful you do not trip into the water :-P

best,
oscar

On 1/10/07, Brad Patrick <bradp.wmf at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello:
>
> I am writing from Rotterdam, where I arrived this morning.  You all know
> this, but I wanted to point out that there are two Tulip Hotels; one is
> white and right next to the Erasmus Bridge, literally next to the water,
> which is where the Board is meeting this week; the other is the Golden
> Tulip Hotel, which is the tall black one, and, presumably, where the
> meetup will be.
>
> If I am wrong, I am sure Oscar or someone else will correct me.
>
> -Brad
>
> PS - Rotterdam is fabulous!  Other than the fact I am soaking wet from
> getting caught in the rain, it is a very cool place.
>
> effe iets anders wrote:
> > Hi all!
> >
> > apperently everybody forgot to mention it in here, so i'll do it anyway,
> > sorry that it is this late :) Coming friday, that is january 12th, the
> > Wikimedia Foundation Board is in the Netherlands for a Board Meeting,
> and
> > from 20.00h CET on, they will attend to an open WikiMeet. The location
> will
> > be the Golden Tulip Hotel (near the Erasmus Bridge), and the meetup will
> > have no formal character. Of course I hope to see a lot of you guys who
> are
> > able to attend :)
> >
> > Greetings from Holland,
> >
> > Lodewijk
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation, its Board of Trustees, nor of Wikimedia Nederland
and its Board.


list: commons-l

from_name: Fredrik Josefsson

subject: [Commons-l] We'd like a better template message transclusion.

body:
Please throw your suggestions on how the current
template translation could be better. Take
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:GFDL  . One
click should show the GFDL message in the desired
language, without bringing out a whole new page.
Ideally, the template message should change to show
whatever language the image in included into;
{{GFDL/es}} for Spanish Wikipedia, etc. Is it
possible? Or does it require complicated changes to
MediaWiki?

Are there other ways to improve this template
situation?

/ Fredrik

_________________________________________________________
Flyger tiden iv?g? F?nga dagen med Yahoo! Mails inbyggda
kalender. Dessutom 250 MB gratis, virusscanning och antispam. F? den p?: http://se.mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Matthew Flaschen

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 10/01/07, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just an update on the issue - it appears Spanish users took the template
>> from Italians. Though on it.wikipedia it runs in ~1s, it runs 20s on
>> Spanish, so obviously, just "taking teh template" didn't work that well.
>
>
> Obviously, with the fantastically stupid^Wcreative things people are
> doing with templates, we need to write a Template Virtual Machine just
> for running templates.

Finally, we can prove once and for all that templates are
Turing-complete. :)

Matthew Flaschen

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subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
Marco Schuster wrote:
> I would suggest either using toolserver or downloading a database dump
> and play it in on your machine.
> And every user older than 4 days...it would attract vandals. Think of a
> really big SELECT, mixed with some JOINs and you put the server load to
> unusable...

No offense, but some list members need to adjust their sarcasm
detectors... :)

Matt Flaschen

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subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
Even though usage must be given for free? i.e the pictures cannot be sold
commercially? Does this mean cc-by-sa doesn't allow to sell the images as
well?
Yoni

On 1/10/07, Dariusz Siedlecki <datrio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My question is this: We have a custom-made picture license created along
> > time ago. It reads (I translated it to English from Hebrew):
> >
> > "This image was created by user:user-name. Free use for educational
> > purposes, with appropriate attribution is allowed. You may use this
> image
> > for any purpose (incl. commercial use) if the usage is given for free of
> > charge to the wide public, with appropriate attribution."
>
> I think yes, it sounds like CC-By-SA.
>
> --
> Pozdrawiam,
> Dariusz Siedlecki
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Category Intersections: "Proof of Concept Page"
 feedback, please?

body:
Simetrical wrote:
> Not as important as intersections, no.  But while I've been bitten for
> spouting off about stuff I'm ignorant of before, surely calculating a
> union would be cheaper than calculating an intersection anyway?

I don't think so.  Basically, the way you do a union is make a list
including all the articles in both categories (including duplicates).
Then, you remove...the intersection.

Matthew Flaschen

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from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikitech-l] mailing list weirdness

body:
On 1/10/07, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 04:05:46PM +0000, David Gerard wrote:
> > From: dgerard at gmail.com
> > To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>,
> > <wikimediauk-l at wikimedia.org>,
> > Subject: test 2, ignore
>
> I don't know if it's just a copying artifact... but look *very*
> carefully at that To header...  the trailing comma may break header
> parsers...

That's gmail interface automatically adding a comma when typing in
addresses. It happens to me too.

Alfio


subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

references:
<NMENLBGDKAFGBDHEPOBNGELEDGAA.erikzachte@infodisiac.com>
	<pan.2007.01.10.00.31.16.8480@ask.com>
	<9ab06f7e0701100408h7fcc7ffbpa976ecbb108912ff@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 1/10/07, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just an update on the issue - it appears Spanish users took the template
> from Italians. Though on it.wikipedia it runs in ~1s, it runs 20s on
> Spanish, so obviously, just "taking teh template" didn't work that well.

1 entire second could be a problem: that template seems to be part of
the interproject linking template, something which is used on *many*
pages to link to commons, wikiquote, etc.

Alfio


from_name: NSLE (Wikipedia)

body:
Hmm, I seem to remember threads from last month where Parker claims to be an
admin and even wrote to Jimbo to get "trolling" against him stopped...

On 10/01/07, George Herbert <george.herbert at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/10/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 10/01/07, Abigail Brady <morwen at evilmagic.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello folks.  I see here that Parker Peters has sent an email to the
> > > list, but it is written in the character of Bob, and signed "Bob" at
> > > the end.  Parker Peters then replied to it, in character as Parker
> > > Peters, and the quoting was changed to make it appear as if the e-mail
> > > address for Bob had sent it.
> > > Now, a cynical person would say this constitutes clear evidence that
> > > both email addresses are being operated by the same person, and they
> > > messed up and lost track of who they were logged in as at the time.
> > > In fact, not just cynical people.  Even naive people would think this.
> > > End the charade please, someone.  It's unbecoming to argue with
> > > yourself on a mailing list.
> >
> >
> > But it was smart enough to fool him; surely you can't expect him to
> > believe it's not smart enough to fool us too.
> >
> > I am not going to block the addresses (as yet), but I am going to
> > hereby point and laugh.
>
> Well, I guess that answers the question of who he is...
>
> I will not laugh, as it would be piling on, but a good pointing-at is
> called for.
>
> "You have to be this tall to storm the castle."
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herbert at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: J.L.W.S. The Special One

subject: [Wikipedia-l] new wikis

body:
I'd suggest a Singlish Wikipedia and Singlish Wiktionary.

On 1/10/07, Dan Collins <en.wp.st47 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I don't understand why new wikis are nor been creating. The people will go
> > out of this because some of them are waiting for the year...
> >
> > Arns Udov???
> >
> If you wnat to make a new wiki with the WikiMedia foundation, visit
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_new_projects
>
> --
> GnuPG key ID is 0x84189146 on subkeys.pgp.net
>
>
>

--
Written with passion,
J.L.W.S. The Special One


from_name: James Hare

subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
When did it become Wikimedia-wide policy?

On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/11/07, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The fact that Hebrew Wikipedia knows about these changes *now* instead
> of
> > *much earlier when these changes actually happened* is kind of
> disturbing.
>
>
> James - we heard of the letter that Jimbo released, but we decided that
> this
> was a local policy of en Wikipedia rather that a binding policy to all
> Wikimedia projects due to the fact that his letter was published on the en
> mailing list only.
>
> On 1/11/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/10/07, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The fact that Hebrew Wikipedia knows about these changes *now* instead
> > of
> > > *much earlier when these changes actually happened* is kind of
> > disturbing.
> >
> > Most projects don't appear to pay to much attention to copyright in
> > their early stages although I think commons is tending to reduce this.
> >
> > And en.wikipedia still has quite a few NC images on it:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-commercial_use_only_images
>
>
>
> geni - we have over 50,000 articles - we ain't in our early stages :-)
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


from_name: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] One way inter-languages links?

body:
Gurch wrote

> There are some automated bots that look for such things and add the
> appropriate links, but they don't operate on all languages, especially
> not the smaller ones.

It's a transitive closure. Should be a nice clean programming exercise. At least in the absence of non-reflexivity (i.e. by interwiki links alone you can return to some Wikipedia at a different article).

Charles

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subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
Well, you mentioned when the new broke about non-commercial images, it was
only an English Wikipedia policy because it was posted on WikiEN-l. However,
apparently Danny informed the community that it's now a foundation-wide
policy. When did it become Foundation-wide?

On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/11/07, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > When did it become Wikimedia-wide policy?
>
>
> errr What? Are you saying that this:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-May/023760.html
> is *not* an official Wikimedia policy? i.e. can the Hebrew Wiki's upload
> non-commercial images? O_o
> Yoni
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


from_name: Marco Schuster

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
David Gerard schrieb:
> On 10/01/07, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/01/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>
>>> template code directly in the hardware. Also, Visual Basic for
>>> MediaWiki needs to be implemented.
>>>
>
>
>> You wash out your mouth with bleach this instant.
>>
>
>
> But it is merely a simple matter of programming!
>
> It would also be good if trusted users (say, anyone whose login is
> over four days old) could run SQL directly on the en: database. I have
> a few outer joins I really really need to check.
>
I would suggest either using toolserver or downloading a database dump
and play it in on your machine.
And every user older than 4 days...it would attract vandals. Think of a
really big SELECT, mixed with some JOINs and you put the server load to
unusable...

Marco


from_name: Gurch

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 10/01/07, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 10/01/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> template code directly in the hardware. Also, Visual Basic for
>>> MediaWiki needs to be implemented.
>
>> You wash out your mouth with bleach this instant.
>
>
> But it is merely a simple matter of programming!
>
> It would also be good if trusted users (say, anyone whose login is
> over four days old) could run SQL directly on the en: database. I have
> a few outer joins I really really need to check.
>
>
> - d.

Yes, and I'd like to see what happens if we make all anonymous users
stewards. It's a wiki, after all!

-Gurch


subject: [Foundation-l] NEH grant

body:
This suggestion looks worth to investigate. As for commons, certain
areas are weakly covered, there might be some people willing to
purchase a collection into the public domain. I'll ask a question
there.

teun

On 1/9/07, Sage Ross <ragesoss+wikipedia at gmail.com> wrote:
> In the past there was some effort put into grant writing, but I'm not
> sure if any grant applications ever got submitted.  In any case, it's
> been quite a while since anything was done on Meta about grants:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants
>
> There is a new NEH grant that looks like something appropriate for
> Wikimedia (or at least for English Wikipedia, through Wikimedia):
> http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/Digital_Partnership.html
>
> From the program description, they want:
> "...proposals for innovative, collaborative humanities projects using
> the latest digital technologies for the benefit of the American
> public, humanities scholarship, and the nation's cultural
> institutions. These grants will support collaborations among
> libraries, museums, archives, universities, and other cultural
> organizations that may serve as models for the field. We encourage
> projects that explore new ways to share, examine, and interpret
> humanities collections in a digital environment and to develop new
> uses and audiences for existing digital resources."
>
> It almost looks like it was written with Wikipedia in mind.  The grant
> range is $50,000 to $350,000 over two years; not enormous, but it
> seems worth the time of some Wikimedian grant writers.
>
> With some creativity, there are probably some other NEH and possibly
> NSF grants that Wikimedia might have a shot at as well.
>
> -User:Ragesoss
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] NEH grant


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Could we tone down the language a bit?

body:
Someone on this mailing recently started a thread:

> Subject: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.
>
> I'd love to see some psychology-oriented individual do a case study
> on what
> kind of people are attracted to editing on Wikipedia.  What
> psychological
> defects lurk behind the computer screens and the keyboards.

Could we please, please, _please_ try to tone down some of the use of
wildly exaggerated language and hype in this mailing list?

Psychosis means "A severe mental disorder, with or without organic
damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of
contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social
functioning."

As in schizophrenia.

It does _not_ mean a difficult person, a jerk, a bastard, an arrogant
adolescent, etc. Nor does it mean a person obsessed with an ideology
and a pitbull determination to inflict it on everyone.

I'm no psychologist, but in my fifteen years as a USENET participant,
I have perhaps _twice_ seen postings that I thought might, in fact,
actually have been made by someone suffering from schizophrenia. I
have yet to see anything similar on Wikipedia.

Words _do_ have meanings.


body:
Yeah, and I'm not happy that people are clearly being idiots and instead of
being understanding you're all

"LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL STUPID IDIOT ROFLMAO GAHAHA GO BACK
TO MYSPACE"

Which is very unprofessional and gives all of us a bad image and makes God
kill a kitten.

Remember, though, I have 1,000,000,000-year contract to serve Wikimedia so I
won't leave over this. It'd be stupid thing to leave over, though.

On 1/10/07, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
>
> Someone on this mailing recently started a thread:
>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.
> >
> > I'd love to see some psychology-oriented individual do a case study
> > on what
> > kind of people are attracted to editing on Wikipedia.  What
> > psychological
> > defects lurk behind the computer screens and the keyboards.
>
> Could we please, please, _please_ try to tone down some of the use of
> wildly exaggerated language and hype in this mailing list?
>
> Psychosis means "A severe mental disorder, with or without organic
> damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of
> contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social
> functioning."
>
> As in schizophrenia.
>
> It does _not_ mean a difficult person, a jerk, a bastard, an arrogant
> adolescent, etc. Nor does it mean a person obsessed with an ideology
> and a pitbull determination to inflict it on everyone.
>
> I'm no psychologist, but in my fifteen years as a USENET participant,
> I have perhaps _twice_ seen postings that I thought might, in fact,
> actually have been made by someone suffering from schizophrenia. I
> have yet to see anything similar on Wikipedia.
>
> Words _do_ have meanings.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.

body:
"David Gerard" wrote

> Charles Matthews pointed me out to people as "the famous David Gerard"
> at the wikimeet last night.

In mitigation, it was to the hackette and the pre-newbie from the LSE. They didn't know better and were fair game for the idea that WP operates a star system (which is so not true).

Charles

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from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
On 10/01/07, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/01/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> > It would also be good if trusted users (say, anyone whose login is
> > over four days old) could run SQL directly on the en: database. I have
> > a few outer joins I really really need to check.

> In an ideal world, you could use the toolserver for it.
> The problem with trusting people to run even select queries on the
> English Wikipedia database is that trust does not equal sufficient SQL
> ability to write queries which do not suck up all our time, even with
> Tim's natty timeout script.

I WAS JOKING. I SWEAR TO GOD.

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
On 10/01/07, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/10/07, Gurch <matthew.britton at btinternet.com> wrote:

> > Yes, and I'd like to see what happens if we make all anonymous users
> > stewards. It's a wiki, after all!

> That's silly.  It would be so much simpler if we just publicized the
> root password for all the servers and permitted anyone full physical
> access to the server clusters.  Ideally we'd also pay for express
> plane flights for anyone to visit the servers to fiddle with them
> manually, to lower barriers to entry.

Indeed. The whole point is to let any idiot edit your website, and
hope the good idiots outnumber the bad idiots. So the real problem we
need to solve is how to build a better idiot.

- d.


body:
I agree that notability should be judged by those familiar with the field.

If an article on Jeremy Silman were to be nominated for deletion, we
should ask several chess players to determine whether he's notable.

If an article on Xiaxue were to be nominated for deletion, we should
ask Singaporeans, and those familiar with the blogosphere, whether
she's notable.

On 1/10/07, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> Indeed.
>
> Singaporean Pop Idol. Notable to Mailer Diablo. Unimportant to me.
>
> Perhaps people who judge notability should have a background in that field?
>
> On 1/10/07, Ian Tresman <it at knowledge.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Notability means different things to different people. What I find
> > notable, someone else won't and vice versa.
> >
> > What's important, it that the article is written well.
> >
> > Wikipedia's strength is that it has more articles than any other
> > encyclopedia. It also has "Good article status" and "Featured article
> > status" to further indicate quality.
> >
> > As long as someone finds a subject notable, I'm not going to disagree
> > with them, and as long as it conforms to WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, then
> > that should be fine with everyone.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Ian Tresman
> >    33 Reginald Street, Derby  DE23 8FR
> >    Tel: 01332 265566. email: it at knowledge.co.uk
> >    Fax: 0870 167 1951. http://www.tresman.co.uk/ian/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Written with passion,
J.L.W.S. The Special One


from_name: Robin Schwab

body:
Fredrik Josefsson schrieb:
 > Ideally, the template message should change to show
 > whatever language the image in included into;
 > {{GFDL/es}} for Spanish Wikipedia, etc. Is it
 > possible? Or does it require complicated changes to
 > MediaWiki?

Your wish is good and important. Could this be done by AJAX?
It sould work the following way:
1. translation of the template if the image is used from another wiki
like es:
2. If the image is viewed through commons it the language of the
template sould be in the user interface language

Note that I find it even more important to have this on
Template:Information than on Template:GFDL

Regards

Robin


from_name: Daniel R. Tobias

subject: [WikiEN-l]  psychosis and wikipedia.

body:
On 10 Jan 2007 at 00:43, "Christopher Thieme" <cdthieme at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'd love to see some psychology-oriented individual do a case study on what
> kind of people are attracted to editing on Wikipedia.  What psychological
> defects lurk behind the computer screens and the keyboards.

Being obsessive-compusive seems to go with the territory.

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


from_name: Ilmari Karonen

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Wrongfully blocked by admin who lies and on behalf
 of users trying to "own" articles

body:
Parker Peters^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HEmperor Joshua A. Norton wrote:
> Are you really Abi, or are you David?
>
> Parker

Hee hee. :-)

--
Ilmari Karonen


from_name: effe iets anders

body:
Dear David,

knowing the Dutch language Wikipedia-community, I think almost everybody
will agree with me that it is no "easy" community. some communitymembers are
now trying to approve a non-free license on the Dutch language Wikipedia,
the CC-NC. This license is imcompatible with the GNU FDL, and I think that
it is, due to GFDL, not allowed to use it on Wikipedia on articles. It is
not something to have an opinion about really, it is or it isn't allowed by
GFDL. You can at most have another view on the license. I think it is very
very important that the Foundation makes it clear for once and for ever what
licenses are acceptable on the Wikimedia projects. It is very hard to
explain to people why one project thinks the use of NC (not to speak of fair
use) is allowed, and why other projects state it isnt. It's not even a
question of local law, it is about what is allowed by the GFDL license.

In the Dutch language community we have actually not a single expert on the
area of copyright and licenses. I doubt lot of other communities have. (With
an expert I mean someone who has studied law and is specialized in that
aera) So at the end people like you and me have to make this kind of
fundamental choises about licenses, even though we do not know what exactly
we are talking about, we are just guessing. (just assuming you are not one
of those experts, by coincidense) A lot of small communities are struggling
with this, and I think it would be very wise of the Foundtaioin to help
those communities, to help especially the Dutch language wikipedia-community
in this, as we have already enough to fight over, by getting a legal advice
with an expert, and make a choise in result of that. An advice would require
in my opinion a same amount of efford, so I really urge to "rules" from
above, although I am usually no big fan of that. So I second heartely Hay's
request, please bring some light in the darkness, and let the blind people
see again.

Lodewijk Gelauff / Effeietsanders

2007/1/10, David Gerard <dgerard op gmail.com>:
>
> On 10/01/07, Husky <huskyr op gmail.com> wrote:
> > Florence wrote:
>
> > > * Legal issues (saturday morning). Planning of the most urgent things
> to
> > > deal with, in particular but not restricted to, trademarks, licence
> > > inforcing, domain names, privacy policy...
>
> > I would like to suggest that it would be nice if the board could also
> > formulate an advice to the projects concerning the use of non-commercial
> > images? That has been endlessly debated on many projects (esp. the Dutch
> > Wikipedia) and any kind of advice would be immensly helpful.
>
>
> I think the current advice is "avoid, they're not free content."
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l op lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
Dear David,

knowing the Dutch language Wikipedia-community, I think almost everybody
will agree with me that it is no "easy" community. some communitymembers are
now trying to approve a non-free license on the Dutch language Wikipedia,
the CC-NC. This license is imcompatible with the GNU FDL, and I think that
it is, due to GFDL, not allowed to use it on Wikipedia on articles. It is
not something to have an opinion about really, it is or it isn't allowed by
GFDL. You can at most have another view on the license. I think it is very
very important that the Foundation makes it clear for once and for ever what
licenses are acceptable on the Wikimedia projects. It is very hard to
explain to people why one project thinks the use of NC (not to speak of fair
use) is allowed, and why other projects state it isnt. It's not even a
question of local law, it is about what is allowed by the GFDL license.

In the Dutch language community we have actually not a single expert on the
area of copyright and licenses. I doubt lot of other communities have. (With
an expert I mean someone who has studied law and is specialized in that
aera) So at the end people like you and me have to make this kind of
fundamental choises about licenses, even though we do not know what exactly
we are talking about, we are just guessing. (just assuming you are not one
of those experts, by coincidense) A lot of small communities are struggling
with this, and I think it would be very wise of the Foundtaioin to help
those communities, to help especially the Dutch language wikipedia-community
in this, as we have already enough to fight over, by getting a legal advice
with an expert, and make a choise in result of that. An advice would require
in my opinion a same amount of efford, so I really urge to "rules" from
above, although I am usually no big fan of that. So I second heartely Hay's
request, please bring some light in the darkness, and let the blind people
see again.

Lodewijk Gelauff / Effeietsanders

2007/1/10, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>:
>
> On 10/01/07, Husky <huskyr at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Florence wrote:
>
> > > * Legal issues (saturday morning). Planning of the most urgent things
> to
> > > deal with, in particular but not restricted to, trademarks, licence
> > > inforcing, domain names, privacy policy...
>
> > I would like to suggest that it would be nice if the board could also
> > formulate an advice to the projects concerning the use of non-commercial
> > images? That has been endlessly debated on many projects (esp. the Dutch
> > Wikipedia) and any kind of advice would be immensly helpful.
>
>
> I think the current advice is "avoid, they're not free content."
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Edward Z. Yang

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Fwd: [Commons-l] We'd like a better template
	message transclusion.

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Rob Church wrote:
> Sounds like it might be possible in a similar form using the Multilang
> extension, if it's tweaked up a bit; I adapted Arnomane's work into
> something that behaves a little more like Cite (multiple blocks of
> <language code="en">Some text</language> for instance, with a
> <multilang /> for output) - the latter uses the language preference.
> [snip]

What about http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_select ?
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from_name: Gordon Joly

body:
At 12:43 +0000 10/1/07, Steve Block wrote:
>David Gerard wrote:
>>  follow Morwen's infallible ale detector to the Shakespeare's Head near
>>  Holborn tube station, another Wetherspoons but this time of the
>>  tolerable variety.
>
>This was a much better choice if you ask me, and might be one to
>bookmark if we ever do it again.  I really enjoyed myself.
>
>>  We got LOTS of people along and this was really good and productive,
>>  despite the horrible first venue. Did anyone write up an attendance
>>  list?
>
>I didn't, but from memory Jimbo, Morwen, yourself, myself, Gordo,
>Psychonaut, Whouk, Edward, Thryduulf, AJR, steve from openstreetmap, Tim
>Starling, Angela, Theresa Knott, um, Geni, Andrew Gray?.  I didn't
>really circulate well and was half cut by the time we were in a quiet
>enough pub to do introductions. Apologies to those I have left off,
>because there most definitely was more people.
>
>
>--

Yes, I was there!! Honest!!!

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
gordon.joly at pobox.com///


body:
At 11:07 +0000 10/1/07, David Gerard wrote:
>The Montagu Pyke is an unspeakably horrible beer barn,

More research required? It is tough, but I volunteer.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
gordon.joly at pobox.com///


from_name: geni

body:
On 1/10/07, effe iets anders <effeietsanders at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear David,
>
> knowing the Dutch language Wikipedia-community, I think almost everybody
> will agree with me that it is no "easy" community. some communitymembers are
> now trying to approve a non-free license on the Dutch language Wikipedia,
> the CC-NC. This license is imcompatible with the GNU FDL, and I think that
> it is, due to GFDL, not allowed to use it on Wikipedia on articles. It is
> not something to have an opinion about really, it is or it isn't allowed by
> GFDL. You can at most have another view on the license. I think it is very
> very important that the Foundation makes it clear for once and for ever what
> licenses are acceptable on the Wikimedia projects. It is very hard to
> explain to people why one project thinks the use of NC (not to speak of fair
> use) is allowed, and why other projects state it isnt. It's not even a
> question of local law, it is about what is allowed by the GFDL license.
>

No we deal with that issue by useing the collective work clause (not
it's proper name). Articles with images in are a collection of
diffferent works thus the images can be under any lisence as far as
the GFDL is concernded.

> In the Dutch language community we have actually not a single expert on the
> area of copyright and licenses. I doubt lot of other communities have. (With
> an expert I mean someone who has studied law and is specialized in that
> aera) So at the end people like you and me have to make this kind of
> fundamental choises about licenses, even though we do not know what exactly
> we are talking about, we are just guessing. (just assuming you are not one
> of those experts, by coincidense) A lot of small communities are struggling
> with this, and I think it would be very wise of the Foundtaioin to help
> those communities, to help especially the Dutch language wikipedia-community
> in this, as we have already enough to fight over, by getting a legal advice
> with an expert, and make a choise in result of that. An advice would require
> in my opinion a same amount of efford, so I really urge to "rules" from
> above, although I am usually no big fan of that. So I second heartely Hay's
> request, please bring some light in the darkness, and let the blind people
> see again.
>

FSF publishes a list of lisences and describes them. While we
dissagree over CC wikipedia tends to follow the defintions fairly
closely:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html

Translations into a number of languages are linked to at the end.
--
geni


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Tomasz Sienicki

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Logo

body:
I can confirm that - none of the editors of the Polish Wiktionary like the new logo or the idea of changing it.

Also, who can tell, perhaps in half a year someone else will start another vote on meta and we'll have to change the logo again... and again...

--[[m:user:tsca]]

[2007-01-08 22:41] Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> Another thing that was really special was that people were told that
> during the vote people were told that the logo would be implemented
> willy nilly. This was a real turn off for me as in someone else will do
> this. Nobody has, apparently nobody cares. It was also my impression was
> that it was not something that was popular among the Wiktionary communities.
>
> I do not think the best logo won so I have yet another reason why I do
> not bother about the implementation of this logo.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> elisabeth anderl schreef:
>> Matthieu Barba a ?crit :
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I already wrote something on the English Beer Parlour, but this list is probably more appropriate.
>>>
>>> A new logo of the project Wiktionary has been voted at the end of October. But the old logo has not been replaced in any project I have visited (All the 1000+).
>>>
>>> Why isn't it implemented now? Maybe because the logo is still incomplete, some issues are still discussed: which letter should be written? W (from Wiktionary) or A (from the alphabet)? Problems with the Japanese letters, etc.
>>>
>>> By the pace is is going, there will never be a final version.
>>>
>>> So, what do we do?
>>>
>>> We could speed things up by forcing the remaining issues to be discussed (in the English Beer Parlour for example).
>>> We could also "forget" about this logo and just keep the old one. Of course it has been voted, but it looks like nobody cares now. And some people complained about the vote procedure itself.
>>>
>>> I would have supported this logo even though I dislike it (for many reasons), but the way things went and are going now, I would not anymore. Do we still need this logo? It doesn't add anything compared to the old one (maybe more solid, but that's all).
>>>
>>> If I could, I would just ignore the vote and either keep the current one, or begin another procedure but this time with a proper preparation (there has been too much problems), with more time to propose versions, etc.
>>> For example, if I organize a vote on fr: (the project where I work the most) with the question: "Do you want to change the logo with the new one or keep the current one?" I think there would be more votes for keeping the old. In the end, it is still the Wiktionary communities who decide, isn't it?
>>>
>>> Here is a link to the new logo page on meta: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo
>>>
>>>  I would like to know your opinion about that ^^
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Darkdadaah, fr.wikt
>>>
>>>
>> Hello, yes, imho it is not implemented because it is incomplete.
>> Furthermore I got the impression, that the logo vote was iniciated by
>> non wiktionary contributors and that there were much voters from
>> outside, so that now since the voting is over they are gone and no one
>> from wiktionary is actually interested or has got the time completing
>> this logo.
>> It is funny that all Wiktionarians I have spoken with do not like this
>> new logo, maybe that is also a reason why there is no progress.
>> Best regards
>> Elisabeth Anderl (aka spacebirdy)
>>


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
On 1/10/07, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> The fact that Hebrew Wikipedia knows about these changes *now* instead of
> *much earlier when these changes actually happened* is kind of disturbing.

Most projects don't appear to pay to much attention to copyright in
their early stages although I think commons is tending to reduce this.

And en.wikipedia still has quite a few NC images on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-commercial_use_only_images

--
geni


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


from_name: Delphine Ménard

subject: [Foundation-l] Special License

body:
On 1/10/07, Yoni Weiden <yonidebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Even though usage must be given for free? i.e the pictures cannot be sold
> commercially? Does this mean cc-by-sa doesn't allow to sell the images as
> well?

Yes, and no.

As I understand it, CC-BY-SA allows you to use the images to make a
product (book, CD, DVD whatever) that you can sell. => Commercial use.

However, the image must be "shared alike", ie. released under the same
license. Which means that if I make a book with your image, I must be
able to provide the source free of charge if you ask for it.

So the real question about your phraseology is, what do you "really"
mean with "allow commercial usage"?

As *I* understand it, to allow commercial usage means that I can take
your image and use it in a book and make money with it (with the book,
not the image - really, what's the point of selling an image as stand
alone if it's free elsewhere?)

My take is that this license is indeed very close to CC-BY-SA. Anyone
can use it on their commercial website, on their commercial brochure
etc.

The trick is if someone takes all those images and makes them into a
CD and sells the CD. However, you could argue that you're making the
people pay for the CD itself and the work that was put into gathering
the images, not for the images themselves.

Delphine

--
~notafish
NB. This address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
this address will probably get lost.


subject: [Foundation-l] Special License


from_name: Christopher Thieme

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Club of New York. Upcoming Planning.

body:
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:04:26 -0500
> From: "Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)" <newyorkbrad at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Club of New York
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
>        <c52819d30701101504r17e67790vc6 164acef32af3e6 at mail.gmail.com<c52819d30701101504r17e67790vc6164acef32af3e6 at mail.gmail.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> > On 12/26/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I will be in New York on the 26th of January and the 1st and 2nd of
> > > February.  (i.e. two Fridays in a row).
> > > Maybe the timing will be right for me to join the festivities...
>
>
> Any developments on this?
>
> "Newyorkbrad"

Brad:

I e-mailed Mr. Wales to enquire what his plans were more precisely so that I
could have a better ability to plan an event.  That was about a week ago.
Needless to say, I haven't heard in response.  I'm hoping both to hear from
him by the end of this week, and to have something put together (I have a
few ideas right now, but without a concrete idea, it would be imprudent to
make a plan that wouldn't jive with Mr. Wales' schedule/availability.  I
assume he's in London from what I've read recently, so I think that might
have caused a delay in responding.   Who knows, he might just get too much
mail and might have missed it. If anyone has his phone number, I'd be much
obliged if this could be raised.  If someone who does have his number
intends to call him, shoot me an e-mail first (I respond quickly) so I can
give you my phone number to pass along to him.

I'm in Idaho until the 19th.  But even while I'm on the slopes, I'm still
checking my e-mail.  Damn phones.

Something will be planned.  That, I guarantee.

But what will be planned, I don't even know.

Regards,
Christopher D. Thieme
User:ExplorerCDT


subject: [WikiEN-l] psychosis and wikipedia.

body:
On 10/01/07, charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com
<charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "David Gerard" wrote

> > Charles Matthews pointed me out to people as "the famous David Gerard"
> > at the wikimeet last night.

> In mitigation, it was to the hackette and the pre-newbie from the LSE. They
>didn't know better and were fair game for the idea that WP operates a star
>system (which is so not true).

Certainly not, and I didn't represent you to her as top-5 editor,
writer, Cambridge mathematician, administrator or arbitrator who'd
been on Wikipedia for years and years either.

- d.


from_name: Luna

subject: [WikiEN-l] Adding personal profile into wikipedia?

body:
On 1/10/07, howard chen <howachen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 1. are there any policy about adding personal (not well known, no
> public interest) profile into wikipedia?

Without more specifics, I can't say for sure, but as an article, that sounds
likely to be deleted -- possible reasons include:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:V
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BIO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BLP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:AUTO

Since I anticipate that you'd probably be writing about yourself, or a
subject you're interested in, please do note that users are allowed to
maintain a userpage -- see more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:USER

2. if there are name collisions, how to handle this?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:DISAMBIG -- tricky, but pretty simple
once you see it in use, or use it yourself, a few times.

Hope that answers your questions fairly well.

-Luna


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2007-01-11

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

This is MediaWiki version 1.10alpha (r19114).
Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/maintenance/parserTests.txt"...
Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Don't fall for the self-closing div... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Always escape literal '>' in output, not just after '<'... FAILED!

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Poem/poemParserTests.txt"...

Passed 484 of 503 tests (96.22%)... FAILED!


from_name: Earle Martin

subject:
[WikiEN-l] POV Intro (Re: Introduction to "Allegations of
	Israeli Apartheid")

body:
On 10/01/07, Argis Rohat <argis.rohat at gmail.com> wrote:
> WP:LEAD states that a good lead "should briefly summarize the most important
> points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as
> a concise version of the article."

WP:LEDE! Ah, I'm glad that's supported as well...

(Incidentally, someone could earn themselves bonus points by
integrating the currently unconnected articles [[Lead paragraph]] and
[[News style]].)

--
Earle Martin
            http://downlode.org/
http://purl.org/net/earlemartin/


from_name: Rob Church

body:
On 10/01/07, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
> Please throw your suggestions on how the current
> template translation could be better. Take
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:GFDL  . One
> click should show the GFDL message in the desired
> language, without bringing out a whole new page.
> Ideally, the template message should change to show
> whatever language the image in included into;
> {{GFDL/es}} for Spanish Wikipedia, etc. Is it
> possible? Or does it require complicated changes to
> MediaWiki?

Sounds like it might be possible in a similar form using the Multilang
extension, if it's tweaked up a bit; I adapted Arnomane's work into
something that behaves a little more like Cite (multiple blocks of
<language code="en">Some text</language> for instance, with a
<multilang /> for output) - the latter uses the language preference.

The extension works and is currently cache compatible, at least - I've
checked that version into Subversion. It needs some tweaking; I used a
bit of a dirty hack to get the language preference, when I'd rather
that was just in the ParserOptions with a simple accessor. Also, the
problem where parser hook extensions are returning a lot of extraneous
whitespace is a bit of an issue here, since we're getting some hideous
blank lines where the <language> tags were, and then the content where
the <multilang /> tag is.

Rob Church


subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
On 10/01/07, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Rob may be too young to remember, but back when dinosaurs ruled the
> earth we used to have [[Special:Asksql]] where anyone could run
> read-only queries on the wiki database.

I know we had it (we still have the code), but I don't think I was
around when it was active.

> Then... only sysops.

Possibly I arrived during that era.

Rob Church


from_name: Andrew Garrett

subject:
[Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN:
	[19054]branches/werdna/restrictions-separation/includes/Parser.php

body:
Rob Church wrote:
>
> On 10/01/07, werdna at svn.wikimedia.org <werdna at svn.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > Revision: 19054
> > Author:   werdna
> > Date:     2007-01-09 23:50:41 -0800 (Tue, 09 Jan 2007)
>
> One observation here - that change appears to alter the parser so that
> it may cause database writes on each execution.
>
> A parse operation is supposed to be a "read" type operation, so this
> sort of thing is probably not good design...
>
How would you do it? I thought that this would be the most sensible option -
rather than periodically refreshing templatelinks for no good reason; why
not do so when an actual change is detected?

Andrew Garrett
(werdna)


subject:
[Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN:
	[19047]branches/werdna/restrictions-separation/maintenance

body:
Rob Church wrote:
> > Log Message:
> > -----------
> > Add two fields for support of planned features. pr_user for restricting
> a single user, and pr_expiry for having time-limited protection
>
> Er, per-user?
>
> Please explain further...this sounds to me like taking MediaWiki
> somewhere we don't want it to go.

See bug 674.


subject: [Wikitech-l] New ipblock-exempt permission

body:
Hans (JePe) wrote:
>
> >I've just committed a change that allows users with the permission key
> >'ipblock-exempt' to be exempted from ALL forms of IP blocks, including
> those
> >which come from DNSBLs.
>
> >This permission is by default assigned to the Sysop group, although it
> can
> >be, as usual, applied to any group using $wgGroupPermissions.
>
> >(See bug 3706 and r18904)
>
>
> How can we on a wikimedia project enable this for a user? There aren't
> added or
> changed any Mediawiki messages in r18904.
>
You will need to file a bugzilla request to have the ipblock-exempt
permission assigned to an additional group. Then, you can ask a steward to
assign this group to users of your choice; and/or ask a developer to
implement and activate an extension that allows local sysops or bureaucrats
to assign users to this group.

Andrew Garrett
(werdna)