list: textbook-l

subject: [Textbook-l] Next Of Kin.

body:
Theresa Knott wrote:
><smile> I just joined this mailing list
>and the first thing I see is this</smile>
>
>I doubt if any of the subscribers are likely
>to be taken in by this but just in case. It's a
scam!"
>
><snip scam where they try to get your bank details>

Dammit! I didn't approve that spam email! I did forget
to explicitly reject it though. Brion, do unapproved
emails automatically go through after a certain amount
of time?

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Vote on voting method for final round

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>The whole setup looks very odd for Wikipedia.
>>Why is Erik deciding by fiat how things are run?

>Yeah, I make all the important decisions. Like what voting system to use
>to vote on the voting system we want to use. I provided a rationale for
>this decision right on the page where it was relevant. Please read it.

Of course, I've already read it, down in section 5.
But providing a rationale for your decision
doesn't change the nature of the decision.

Anyway, the problem is not simply that you're making the decision;
you and mav provide a fair case as to why such a thing is necessary.
The problem is that the basis for your /authority/ to make it
is not explained anywhere, and is unclear to many people there.

Ironically, if you really /did/ make all of the important decisions,
then the situation would be easier to understand!
(Which is not the same as better, as I'm sure you'll agree.)

>>Given that you are, what's the relevance of your comment
>>that you won't participate if they're not run as you like,

>Very simple. I choose how to spend my time.

Erm ... yes.  That's not the tricky part.
The tricky part is, if you have the authority to make decisions by fiat,
presumably because you're running the process (and so you are!),
then one would expect that you'd make the decision by fiat
to run Round 2 in such a way that you would in fact wish to participate;
rather than let people vote on how to run Round 2
but make the decision by fiat about how /that/ vote is to be run.

This is an example of the irony above, actually.

>>But anyway, I apologise if this sounded like an accusation.

>It's simply wrong. I have exercised virtually no authority in important
>matters in this contest.

And as mav suggests in his own post, you are to be thanked.

I'm trying to explain why the process is confusing,
so that you might come across as much worse than you are.
I'm not doing a very good job at that, apparently. '_`

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Aoineko wrote:

>>What about people who contribute anonymously ?

>They won't be able to vote.

What if their IP# has made 10 edits?

-- Toby


body:
Mav wrote in part:

>I think Erik is doing an excellent job and think he should be thanked for the
>many hours of his /own/ time he has put into this effort

Yes, that is true.

>instead of being accused of dictating terms.

To reiterate, I do not make that accusation.
(Well, there's a nonjudgmental literal sense in which it's a clear fact.
But one should avoid the term "dictating" for that sense!)

>This is, after all, the largest vote in
>Wikipedia's history and we are all learning as we move along. But at the same
>time the vote does have to move along. Arguing over the vote method to use on
>the vote to decide what the second stage voting method should be, is, IMO a
>petty activity that tends to rerail the process instead of moving it along.

Yes, just as choosing the Round 2 voting method by FPTP,
when that is known to be unpopular among just about everybody,
would tend to derail the process.  Accidentally, of course.
I don't believe that anybody is /trying/ to derail the process.

-- Toby


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Textbook-l] Next Of Kin.

body:
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 11:52, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Dammit! I didn't approve that spam email! I did forget
> to explicitly reject it though. Brion, do unapproved
> emails automatically go through after a certain amount
> of time?

This list isn't set to hold posts from non-list-members for moderation.
Would you like to change this then?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikien-l

from_name: Dante Alighieri

subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus

body:
At 09:17 AM 9/8/2003, you wrote:
>On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 22:14, Dante Alighieri wrote:
> > Sigh... Well, I'm totally open to suggestions on how to solve the
> > problem... just about anything short of switching e-mail clients is
> > acceptable.
>
>Since you're using an old version of Eudora, you might try the current
>version (6.0) and see if it's less broken.
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>

Heh. I swear, I checked last week and 5.2 was still current. :) 6 must have
JUST come out. Anyway, here's Eudora 6.

? ligature aesch
? cent sign
? Euro sign
? French c with a tail thingy
? tilde over an n
? umlaut over an a
? lowercase delta
? ess tsett

Let's see if that works...

-----
Dante Alighieri
dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo contest

body:
To date, the logo contest has been a strictly volunteer and ad hoc
effort with Erik leading the way to create a fair and open process.
Yes, there have been some problems, but in my opinion, the problems
are much overblown considering the excellence of all of the top
contenders.

It looks like some specific decisions are going to have to be made,
and in a timely fashion, and so I'm hereby officially authorizing Erik
to make structural adjustments to the contest as necessary and in the
spirit of openness as much as is feasible, so that we can come to a
quick resolution that we can all support.

When there are irreconcilable quarrels, it comes down to me making a
final decision of some sort, but I don't really have the time or
energy to mediate this one, and Erik's done a good job of it so far.

Erik knows to treat everyone with respect and to try to make decisions
that will be popular and reasonable.  Since he's spearheaded the whole
voting thing, and since he knows the details of what's going on, we
can all trust him to do the right thing all around.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus

body:
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 12:06, Dante Alighieri wrote:
> Heh. I swear, I checked last week and 5.2 was still current. :) 6 must have
> JUST come out. Anyway, here's Eudora 6.
>
> ? ligature aesch
> ? cent sign
>  Euro sign

That doesn't come out, as your mail was marked as ISO-8859-1, an
encoding which doesn't include the Euro sign. See if you can get it to
send mails in ISO-8859-15 or Windows-1252 (or better yet, UTF-8).

> ? French c with a tail thingy
> ? tilde over an n
> ? umlaut over an a
> ? lowercase delta
> ? ess tsett
>
> Let's see if that works...

And my reply... :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Steve Vertigum

subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus and an inability to rename threads

body:
Somehow a complaint about a newbie and his newbie
errors evolved into a 30 entry long discussion about
various stuff ending in UTF-8 and encoding issues...

?

Back to my old friend 'the drink,'
-s-

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus

body:
At 12:30 PM 9/8/2003, you wrote:
>On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 12:06, Dante Alighieri wrote:
> > Heh. I swear, I checked last week and 5.2 was still current. :) 6 must
> have
> > JUST come out. Anyway, here's Eudora 6.
> >
> > ?? ligature aesch
> > ?? cent sign
> >  Euro sign
>
>That doesn't come out, as your mail was marked as ISO-8859-1, an
>encoding which doesn't include the Euro sign. See if you can get it to
>send mails in ISO-8859-15 or Windows-1252 (or better yet, UTF-8).
>
> > ?? French c with a tail thingy
> > ?? tilde over an n
> > ?? umlaut over an a
> > ?? lowercase delta
> > ?? ess tsett
> >
> > Let's see if that works...
>
>And my reply... :)
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

*sigh* OK, this doesn't seem to be working. I received the above.... the
weird thing is, when I send OUT the message, the messages are fine, I just
can't receive the characters. I even checked my OUT box and the message
displays fine... stupid Eudora!!!

I can't seem to find a way to change my encoding... anyone know how?

-----
Dante Alighieri
dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo contest

body:
I agree with everything Shepherd Jim said below, and
Ill bet dollars to donuts that he agrees with me that
a minimum good faith effort at least should be made by
Erik (or someone with axs) to look over the logs and
check for any ip's using more than one username.

Soon renaming my 'French fries' to 'Wikifries,'
-S-

--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> To date, the logo contest has been a strictly
> volunteer and ad hoc
> effort with Erik leading the way to create a fair
> and open process.
> Yes, there have been some problems, but in my
> opinion, the problems
> are much overblown considering the excellence of all
> of the top
> contenders.
>
> It looks like some specific decisions are going to
> have to be made,
> and in a timely fashion, and so I'm hereby
> officially authorizing Erik
> to make structural adjustments to the contest as
> necessary and in the
> spirit of openness as much as is feasible, so that
> we can come to a
> quick resolution that we can all support.
>
> When there are irreconcilable quarrels, it comes
> down to me making a
> final decision of some sort, but I don't really have
> the time or
> energy to mediate this one, and Erik's done a good
> job of it so far.
>
> Erik knows to treat everyone with respect and to try
> to make decisions
> that will be popular and reasonable.  Since he's
> spearheaded the whole
> voting thing, and since he knows the details of
> what's going on, we
> can all trust him to do the right thing all around.
>
> --Jimbo

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: cprompt

subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus

references:
<3F5B82E5.4010605@planetunreal.com>
	<BB80ACF0.429A%fredbaud@ctelco.net> <BB80ACF0.429A%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<5.2.0.9.2.20030907101234.02d87fe8@digitalgrapefruit.com>
	<3F5B82E5.4010605@planetunreal.com>
	<5.2.0.9.2.20030907200513.02d76a20@digitalgrapefruit.com>
	<opru52jrqczs1r4a@localhost>  <3F5C5152.9070708@planetunreal.com>

body:
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 09:52, tarquin wrote:

> I'm still stuck working out how to stop mozilla mail from pasting
> formatted text into my "compose email" box. It makes  referring to the
> title of a wikipedia article a real pain :(
>
Using Windows? Paste the text into notepad, which only handles
plaintext. Then highlight and copy it and paste it into the email.


from_name: KNOTT, T

subject: [Textbook-l] Next Of Kin.

body:
<smile> I just joined this mailing list and the first thing I see is this
</smile>

I doubt if any of the subscribers are likely to be taken in by this but just
in case. It's a scam!"

<snip scam where they try to get your bank details>

Anyway, hi everyone :-)

Theresa Knott


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

body:
Toby Bartels wrote:
> Well, it is now (or will be soon, I forget where we are technically
> in the legal process of changing things over) a nonprofit organisation;
> eventually it will have members and be a "corporation" in a generic sense.

This is perfect from an American perspective, but other countries can
have a different approach to organizations and democracy.

I know how hard it has been to make the Swedish chapter of ISOC
(the Internet Society) appear as a legimitate membership organization.
When Swedes first heard about it, many thought it sounded like a very
undemocratic way of organizing things, compared to what they were used
to, and this made it really hard to attract new members.  Of course,
this came as a surprise to ISOC's American / international
organization, since their ambition has been to be very open and
democratic.  But that's just how cultural clashes work.

In Sweden, corporation and organization law allows for these kinds of
formalized organizations:
 - public share holder corporation (AB publ)
 - private share holder corporation (AB priv)
 - private company with multiple owners (HB, KB)
 - private business with single owner (EF)
 - foundation (stiftelse)
 - cooperative, for-profit membership association (ekonomisk f?rening)
 - non-profit membership association (ideell f?rening)

Foundations are regarded as highly undemocratic, because they govern
themselves and have no influence from members.  The current board of
trustees appoints the next board of trustees.  Foundations are mostly
used for maintaining huge amounts of money, such as the Nobel
foundation that owns the money from Alfred Nobel's last will, and
awards the Nobel Prize.

Various coops own most of Sweden's farm produce industry, many
apartment buildings, a large chain of grocery stores, etc.
The generated profit is reinvested or distributed among the members,
pretty much like a share holder corporation, but membership comes at a
fixed price, every member has one vote and profit is distributed in
proportion to each member's economic activity (e.g. size of their
apartment, if the coop owns the building).  If a wiki website had
a huge revenue from banner ads, a coop could be a useful form of
organization.

All political parties, trade unions, churches, and any normal
association, such as computer clubs, are of the non-profit kind.
Legislation is very liberal, but this is balanced by a strong
tradition of good practice for writing bylaws, electing a board of
trustees, accounting, audit, membership meetings, etc.

Democracy is the readiness of the ruler to give up his power.  That is
what Swedish non-profit membership associations are about.  If the
founder maintains "a firm grip" on power or makes the organization
depend on him, it is a foundation, a "cult", or some kind of business,
and not democratic.  To be able to oust the leader, a membership
association must depend on its members, not on the leader.  This is
achieved by paying a membership fee that can pay for all costs that
the association has.  The fees are maintained by an elected board of
trustees, audited by two elected accountants, who report to the annual
general assembly of members.

Both the Free Software Foundation and the Wikimedia Foundation are
foundations, rather than democratic membership associations.  This
might seem odd to Swedes who are involved in the life of associations.

My own Swedish wiki website (susning.nu) is not democratic at all.  I
run it as part of my private single owner business (aronsson.se).
Changing it to a foundation wouldn't buy me any extra credibility at
all.  I could form a democratic membership association, but I'm not
ready to give up power, at least not for now.  There is no tax
exemption for donations to organizations of any kind in Sweden.
The only reason to form a foundation is if I would receive a huge
donation (this would save me from income tax on the received amount),
but no such donations are on the horizon.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

body:
> Guillaume-
>
> > I agree and I think we need more time to well organize this second
round.
> Not really. We have more than a week until we start.

I don't think a week is enough to clear all discussion and evaluate all
solutions, but let's try.

> > Rules for the second round are already decided (in details, not only
vote
> > system) ?
>
> For the most part, yes. I don't think there will be any major changes. I
> have just set the deadline for the method to Sep 12 so there will be three
> days of time to translate the voting instructions.

I only see a "logo vote system" vote. Who decide the other points?

Even if we have to use Average method (not my favorite method) for that, I
think we must create pages to vote on:

* Rules for submission

* Deadlines (too short imho)

* Logo vote method (pending...)

* Cheat handling

For submission I think we have better to have one main page with only the
author favorite logo (1 logo) plus a link to one page per logo with all
variants.

> > Do we vote for a concept or for a final logo ?
>
> You vote for a final logo. There may be a need to make a transparent
> version or a larger one, but no significant changes to the winning logo
> will be made without clear consensus.

If we vote for a final logo we need a lot of variant, isn't it?

We can like a logo concept but prefer a different color, font text,
contrast, frame style, etc.

For example, I see a lot of interesting logos variants in the Paullus page
(made by him?) and I think it may be great if we can vote for all those
variants (and new ones).

Imho, encourage wikipedians to propose new logos variants, is a better way
to get the logo witch satisfy the most people. Sure, finalists' authors must
select themselves witch logos are in accord with there own concept.

> > In other term do we have for
> > each variant of a logo or just for a concept ?
>
> You vote on each variant.

This must avoid FPTP method that disfavor logo with the more variants.

> > What is the solutions to reduce vote cheating ?
>
> You need a user page on Meta that points to an account with at least 10
> legitimate edits.

Who will check each user to see if (s)he done at least 10 edits ? What about
people who contribute anonymously ?

> Regards,
>
> Erik

Aoineko


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

body:
I forgot an important question :

- Why are you so hurried with deadlines !?

Aoineko

----- Original Message -----
From: "Guillaume Blanchard" <gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp>
To: <wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

> > Guillaume-
> >
> > > I agree and I think we need more time to well organize this second
> round.
> > Not really. We have more than a week until we start.
>
>
>
> I don't think a week is enough to clear all discussion and evaluate all
> solutions, but let's try.
>
>
> > > Rules for the second round are already decided (in details, not only
> vote
> > > system) ?
> >
> > For the most part, yes. I don't think there will be any major changes. I
> > have just set the deadline for the method to Sep 12 so there will be
three
> > days of time to translate the voting instructions.
>
>
>
> I only see a "logo vote system" vote. Who decide the other points?
>
> Even if we have to use Average method (not my favorite method) for that, I
> think we must create pages to vote on:
>
> * Rules for submission
>
> * Deadlines (too short imho)
>
> * Logo vote method (pending...)
>
> * Cheat handling
>
> For submission I think we have better to have one main page with only the
> author favorite logo (1 logo) plus a link to one page per logo with all
> variants.
>
>
>
> > > Do we vote for a concept or for a final logo ?
> >
> > You vote for a final logo. There may be a need to make a transparent
> > version or a larger one, but no significant changes to the winning logo
> > will be made without clear consensus.
>
>
>
> If we vote for a final logo we need a lot of variant, isn't it?
>
> We can like a logo concept but prefer a different color, font text,
> contrast, frame style, etc.
>
> For example, I see a lot of interesting logos variants in the Paullus page
> (made by him?) and I think it may be great if we can vote for all those
> variants (and new ones).
>
> Imho, encourage wikipedians to propose new logos variants, is a better way
> to get the logo witch satisfy the most people. Sure, finalists' authors
must
> select themselves witch logos are in accord with there own concept.
>
>
>
> > > In other term do we have for
> > > each variant of a logo or just for a concept ?
> >
> > You vote on each variant.
>
>
>
> This must avoid FPTP method that disfavor logo with the more variants.
>
>
>
> > > What is the solutions to reduce vote cheating ?
> >
> > You need a user page on Meta that points to an account with at least 10
> > legitimate edits.
>
>
>
> Who will check each user to see if (s)he done at least 10 edits ? What
about
> people who contribute anonymously ?
>
>
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > Erik
>
>
>
> Aoineko
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] WikiTable implementation

body:
Steve Vertigum wrote:

>>MM:  You now can also do something like
>>	| Cell 1 || Cell 2 || Cell 3
>>with || separating the cells.
>
> Fantastic. The notion of making tables easier has been
> around over for a long time. Glad to see its becoming
> a reality.

There were lots of table markup suggestions a long time ago (I think
Frodo made one, and Gandalf...;-)

Nothing happened (as usual), so I had to do the "eat-or-die"-routine
again, sadly.

>>That's currently "on ice", as I have trouble getting
>>the wxWindows HTML
>>componjent to display unicode. I'm not sure when
>>I'll get back to it.
>
> Are you you opensourcing it?

Yes, hereby under GPL (didn't I say that somewhere? Stupid me!).
Currently the source resembles a text after strong encryption, though.

Magnus


subject: [WikiEN-l] category tags

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

> Do you know anything else about how it chooses
> categories? Is there some reason you can't disclose
> its author?

The mail says that it generates category links from existing lists, so I
guess it scans a list page for links, then inserts an appropriate
category link into each of these articles.

As I received the mail in private, I keep the (in wikipedia-land
well-known and well-respected) author to myself. I'm sure he'll talk to
the list as soon as he reads all this.

Magnus


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l]  Wikipedia.ru & Wikimedia.de

body:
On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 02:22:09AM -0400, Alex R. wrote:
> From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
>
> > Using trademarks to restrain non-commercial activity is always wrong --
>
> Sorry this is clearly cofused thinking. Trademarks can be used to restrain
> the misattribution of non-commercial activity. Trademark infringment laws
> do not restrain commerce, they prevent people from using the marks that
> identify the product of another. If they remove the trademark there is
> no restraint. Trademark law only restains the use of trademarks, nothing
> else. Non commercial groups have just as much right to these things, take
> the Olympics for example, should everyone be allowed to name a sports
> competition after the Olympics? Allow that will make people very
> confused. Ultimately it is about protecting the general public, more so
> with nonprofits, than protecting proprietary interests..

"Olympics" is a good example of USA-specific trademark.
In Poland everyone can call anything "Olimpiada" and they often do.


subject: [WikiEN-l] English Wikipedia down

body:
The web server 'larousse' which holds the English wikipedia (and
test.wikipedia.org) is down due to problems with a software upgrade that
will require some on-site maintenance.

I've called Jason, he's on his way (thanks Jason!); hopefully this
should be sorted out within a few hours.

Sorry for the inconvenience...

All non-English wikipedias, meta, wiktionary etc are unaffected.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] English Wikipedia down


from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

subject: [Textbook-l] professor friendly Wikiversity

body:
I'm one, and my 2cents are at
http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikibooks_talk:Wikiversity.

Regards,

Tomos

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

body:
> Guillaume-
> > I forgot an important question :
>
> > - Why are you so hurried with deadlines !?
>
> Why are you so slow?

I didn't propose any deadlines yet, so you don't know how slow I'd like ;o)

Discussing with Olizekat I find out he had to work the night to be able to
finish logos for the deadlines. I suppose other creators that have a job
can't spend all their time to design logo. I think imho that finalist
artists are better judge than you to decide submission deadline. If someone
need 1 month (it's just an example) to finish all his variants, why don't
wait 1 month? Logo is waiting for 3 years, 1 month is not matter.

Honestly I don't understand what are the arguments to hurry the deadlines?

> Regards,
>
> Erik

Aoineko


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

body:
> Aoineko wrote:
> >I forgot an important question :
> >
> >- Why are you so hurried with deadlines !?
>
> You are funny! This whole thing has already gone on for a month and will
not
> be done until the end of this month. It would also be nice to have the new
> logo go live before we distribute the press release; Assuming Brion
doesn't
> upgrade any more large UseMod wikis to MediaWiki, we will be hitting the
> 300,000 mark sometime between Sept 20-28. But IMO we can wait a few days
to a
> week after that if we are not ready.
>
> A nicer/easier way to submit donations would also be nice to have by press
> time.... Not to mention a Wikimedia Foundation website. Oh well.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

If we must vote for a final logo (no change after vote) I think we really
need a lot of variants and I think 1 week is very short to be able to create
all them. One more time, I think we had better to ask artist themselves.
They are better judge to decide when they will be able to submit all
variants they want.

To reduce variant in this round, can we imagine being able to propose minor
variants after the final logo will be decided? That include only:

* Colors change

* Text font

* Object placement (ex : Wikipedia up or down)

Aoineko


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus

references:
<3F5B82E5.4010605@planetunreal.com>
	<BB80ACF0.429A%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<BB80ACF0.429A%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<5.2.0.9.2.20030907101234.02d87fe8@digitalgrapefruit.com>
	<3F5B82E5.4010605@planetunreal.com>
	<5.2.0.9.2.20030907200513.02d76a20@digitalgrapefruit.com>

body:
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:05:58 -0700, Dante Alighieri
<dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com> gave utterance to the following:

> At 07:43 PM 9/7/2003, you wrote:
>> On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 12:11, tarquin wrote:
>> > Dante Alighieri wrote:
>> > > It's very easy to write accented characters (and not just French
>> ones)
>> > > with a "standard" English keyboard. Just load up the
>> US-International
>> > > keyboard layout and you too can easily type such exciting characters
>> > > as: ??, ??, ??, ??, ?, ??, ??, etc.
>> >
>> > Must be a Windows 2000 / XP thing, I can only see English-US on Win98.
>>
>> At least US releases of Windows have had it for ages; I've used it on
>> and off since Windows 3.1.
>>
>> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>>
>
> Any idea why your response broke the characters? They now have weird
> capital A's in front of totally different characters....
>
Tarquin's reply was sent with an inadequate charset to display the content
of the message:
Content-Type: 	text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

This is rather surprising given the mail client (Thunderbird):
User-Agent: 	Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624
--
Richard Grevers
Between two evils always pick the one you haven't tried


subject: [Wikipedia-l] This Does Not Work

body:
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 21:03, Modemac wrote:
> Yes it does.  :)  I presume the server was just rebooted.

Still down. I've managed to take over its IP address from the other
server and have it in read-only mode for the moment. (Uploaded images
and other things are on the web server which is still down.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Alex R.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia.ru & Wikimedia.de

body:
From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
> Daniel-
> >> They did not hijack any registered trademark, and
> >> unregistered trademarks seem to be a US-specific
> >> thing.

There is a gray area there. Did you read that link to
the opposition of trademarks in the Russian system that
I previously posted?

ANYONE who uses a trademark can register it, yes,
but anyone else who uses it can also put up opposition.
All trademark registration systems,  allow for these kinds
of administrative or judicial review mechanisms.

Why? because registration is just a formality. the underlying
right to a trademark (if the jursidction recognizes so called
common law or not) can exists with or without registration.
You will note that the Russian registration opposition scheme
recognizes prior usage as a strong element in the nullification of
a registered mark.

> As for non-commercial violators, I understand that if we explicitly allow
> them to use our trademark (license them), instead of ignoring them, this
> will not dilute the mark.  Can anyone confirm if this is the case?

First, the idea that Wikipedia does not make money from Wikipedia
is wrong.  People are already making donations, those donations are
money.  Being non-commercial does not mean we are not entitled to
make money, or even sell things (I like to mention Oxford University
Press, they are non-commercial, part of a University, they make a lot
of money). The dichotomy between commercial and non-commercial
is mostly non-existent. We live in  a world where money is used for
everything, to show support, to give gifts, etc. legally _and_ morally
IMO no such distinction exists; the world is full of big businesses and
big charties. The international Red Cross has as much right to it
name as any fast food restaurant or soft drinnk. In fact, I would argue that
a charitable organization needs protection more so because of the
opportunity for individuals and groups to misuse the name of a charity
and take advantage of innocent members of the public that believe
they are giving donations to the legitimate or original charity.

 Why would anyone want to agree wth the licensing of a name
with a not-for-profit (yes not for profit, does not mean not for money)
if not for profit entities had no rights to their names?

Let them use the Wikipedia name, link to porno sites and even
accept donations (yes they can do that in Wikipedia's name if the
name is not protected with vigour). Wehn the word is out that Wikipedia
does not care about its name then someone will start a
Canadian Wikipedia, a Mexian Wikipedia, a Cayman Islands Wikipedia,
a Jersey Islands Wikipedia. Hey there can be a Wikimedia Foundation
in every state of the USA, Wikimedia Foundation of New York, Wikimedia
Foundation of California; and none of them will have anything to
do with any of the other Wikimedias or Wikipedias.

Hey, maybe someone wants to start an off shore Wikipedia Hotel
buy an estate in one of those off shore jurisdictions? Charge people
to go there and chill out with a T-3 connection. wi-fi  on the beach,
and if they want to start some porno sites and manage them with the
resources of the hotel, hey why not, nothing immoral with that, after
all Wikipedia doesn't care about the value of its name.

Why not, nothing immoral using the name of a non-commercial
group of people, just because they have world wide publicity,
someone should take advantage of it if they don't want to protect
the name.

Here is a useful case about the commercial hijacking of an internet
"relgious" name: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/property/domain/jfj.html

Alex756


from_name: Tucci

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia cited in court case

body:
Americans might be aware of a recent court case
involving a student suing on the basis of being
punished in school for using the word "fuck", which he
claimed was an infringement of his right to free
speech.  The kid's lawyer filed a long brief detailing
the history of the word, which apparently uses
Wikipedia's article as a source.  See
http://thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html

TUF-KAT

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

body:
> Aoineko wrote:
> >If we must vote for a final logo (no change after vote)
> >I think we really need a lot of variants and I think 1
> >week is very short to be able to create all them.
>
> They already had an entire month to create variants silly!
>
> --mav

I suppose that someone who don't know if its logo will pass the first round,
don't make all variants in advance. Ask the finalists, imho, they are the
ones who have to choose submission deadline.
This discussion turn unfriendly, I will stop it here.
In fact I'm out from 12 to 28 so this vote don't concern me ;o)
Regards,

Aoineko


from_name: Till Westermayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo contest

body:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .

Hi,

>It looks like some specific decisions are going to have to be
>made, and in a timely fashion, and so I'm hereby officially
>authorizing Erik to make structural adjustments to the contest as
>necessary and in the spirit of openness as much as is feasible, so
>that we can come to a quick resolution that we can all support.

*grin*

finally ... the benevolent dictator at work ...

(No, it's okay for me, even if I don't like the way these things work.
Only real problem with delegating the benevolent dictatorship re
structural contests adjustments to Erik is finalist logo entry #10 ...).

Regards,
 __ .
 / / / /                            ... Till Westermayer - till we *)
. .
  . mailto:till at tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072
  . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179
  . . . . .


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Chris Seaton

subject: [Wikitech-l] Getting patches comitted to CVS

body:
I don't want to nag, but I mailed a patch (modification to the colonge
blue stylesheet) to this list a while ago and it hasn't been comitted to
CVS. Was I right to send it to this list or should it have gone
elsewhere? Do I have to do something special to get it comitted?
--
Chris Seaton

chris at chrisseaton.com
http://www.chrisseaton.com/


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo contest

body:
Jimmy-
> Erik knows to treat everyone with respect and to try to make decisions
> that will be popular and reasonable.  Since he's spearheaded the whole
> voting thing, and since he knows the details of what's going on, we
> can all trust him to do the right thing all around.

Thanks, Jimbo. I'll try to use this authority only for the minor details
of organization. For future similar situations, perhaps we should
generally try to establish this kind of authority as early in the process
as possible, so as to avoid the kind of confusion that Toby and others
have been alluding to.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Daniel-
>> They did not hijack any registered trademark, and
>> unregistered trademarks seem to be a US-specific
>> thing.

> I didn't say they hijacked a registered trademark, and
> as far as the ICANN is concerned, we definitely pass
> the trademark test.

And that's exactly where I think we should draw a moral line. We should
not use the UDRP to obtain a domain for a name which we haven't even
bothered to register as a trademark yet, *even if* that is technically
feasible. That's because if we feel like this kind of domain theft is
acceptable, we are implicitly endorsing the use of UDRP by corporations
and celebrities to steal legitimate domains and to thereby suppress free
speech. We should register our trademark and *then*, and only then, act
against *commercial* violators.

As for non-commercial violators, I understand that if we explicitly allow
them to use our trademark (license them), instead of ignoring them, this
will not dilute the mark.  Can anyone confirm if this is the case?

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting

body:
Toby-
> Erik Moeller wrote:

>> Aoineko wrote:

>>> What about people who contribute anonymously ?

>> They won't be able to vote.

> What if their IP# has made 10 edits?

Sorry, no dice. Everyone can register an account -- the level of anonymity
is the same, you don't even need an email to sign up -- so I see no reason
to let entirely anonymous users vote.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] wikitable markup

body:
On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 09:59:35AM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:
> I have committed my table markup (in OutputPage.php, "doTableStuff"
> function) to the CVS, as well as some CSS to wikistandard.css. It is now
> running on the "real" test site (not the "/magnus" subdir).
>
Hi,

If you open a table, but don't close it, the entire page layout is
messed up. All open tables should be closed at the end of the article.
Else it might be hard to find the "Edit this page"-button to fix it :-)

Regards,

	JeLuF


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo contest

body:
Till-
> Only real problem with delegating the benevolent dictatorship re
> structural contests adjustments to Erik is finalist logo entry #10 ...).

I can withdraw this logo if it is generally considered a problem. Some
people seem to like it a lot, though, and I was thinking of whipping up
another couple of variants before the final stage begins.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Modemac

subject: [Wikipedia-l] This Does Not Work

body: Yes it does.  :)  I presume the server was just rebooted.


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] GRASS ( was: map software)

body:
"Tomasz Wegrzanowski"
<taw at users.sourceforge.net> wrote in message
news:20030908002428.GA20713 at tavaiah...
> Here's newest version of the map software, used to render maps like those
on:
>
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_first_useful_map
>     (Poland, BlueMable background, Polish language)
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_polygon_map
>     (Poland, Polish language)
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_polygon_map/New_color_scheme
>     (whole Earth, no labels)
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_polygon_map/Han_support
>     (Japan and Korea, Japanese language)

Why are you writing your own rather than using a package such as GRASS?

http://grass.baylor.edu/

GRASS has stacks of features, it has been used for web-based mapping
servers, and it is licensed under GPL. It seems to do pretty much everything
we would want to do. It can generate HTML image maps, so I'm pretty sure you
can click on Berlin and have it go to an article on Berlin. It can output in
PNG. People can amuse themselves by playing around with its ~125 different
projections. The only catch is that interfacing is a bit cumbersome.

I read up on it a while ago when I was thinking about the WikiAtlas problem
myself, but I've never actually downloaded it.

-- Tim Starling <tstarlingphysicsunimelbeduau>


from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus

body:
Oh please, RickK! That does not mean you. It means Kwantus. Nobody who has
seen five minutes of your work thinks you don't do any editing. You were the
one who pointed out that Quantus doesn't. Stop being so friggin' paranoid.

JT
>
>Fine.  I'll stick to my own articles and ignore all the rest of Wikipedia.
>
>Please take my sysop powers away.  I won't be needing them.
>
>RickK
>
>JFrost8401 at aol.com wrote:
>This sort of project is bound to attract semi-autists with no social
>skills. Nevertheless, I don't think it's acceptable to pass the editing on
>to others because you can't be bothered to do it yourself.
>
>Jim

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] New LanguageDe.php in CVS

body:
Hello,

I commited a new Version of the LanguageDe.php file to CVS, with around
fifty new translations.

Happy installing.
--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] Index page code glitch

body:
Could someone please fix the code which is causing the following error on
the en wiki homepage? It's causing screwy display in Opera with the
subjects column very narrow and the community one a mile wide.

Note the illegal ; before the width="58%"
--
Richard Grevers
Between two evils always pick the one you haven't tried


from_name: Jake Nelson

body:
It has been mentioned before, yes. (Don't recall if it was on the mailing
list or the 'pedia.) It's worth noting (previous mention was before the case
went to trial) that the kid won.

--Jake

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tucci" <tucci528 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:15 PM
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia cited in court case

> Americans might be aware of a recent court case
> involving a student suing on the basis of being
> punished in school for using the word "fuck", which he
> claimed was an infringement of his right to free
> speech.  The kid's lawyer filed a long brief detailing
> the history of the word, which apparently uses
> Wikipedia's article as a source.  See
> http://thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html
>
> TUF-KAT
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus

body:
Everything except the euro sign came out fine. However, in your reply to
Brion, they went back to the A-stuff.

--Jake


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Requesting CVS access

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 00:59, Chris Seaton wrote:
> Can someone with the required privs give me CVS developer access? I'm a
> sysop on the English Wikipedaa (as Cgs), and I'm eager to comit patches
> I've written but I think I'll need to do it myself.
>
> My SF id = 558989

I'm not sure I can do anything with just the id number... what's your
login name?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Pour Aoineko

body:
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:36:09 +0900
From: "Guillaume Blanchard" <gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp>
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Cheating on logo voting
To: <maveric149 at yahoo.com>,
<wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org>
Message-ID:
<00cc01c375f5$047c05e0$d100a8c0 at arcsy.co.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

> Aoineko wrote:
> >If we must vote for a final logo (no change after
vote)
> >I think we really need a lot of variants and I
think 1
> >week is very short to be able to create all them.
>
> They already had an entire month to create variants
silly!
>
> --mav

I suppose that someone who don't know if its logo will
pass the first
round,
don't make all variants in advance. Ask the finalists,
imho, they are
the
ones who have to choose submission deadline.
This discussion turn unfriendly, I will stop it here.
In fact I'm out from 12 to 28 so this vote don't
concern me ;o)
Regards,

Aoineko

Aoi,

Comment rester maitre seul sur le plateau ?

Eliminer un ? un les opposants en les d?moralisant

1) En faisant appel ? la piti? (genre : j'ai pass? bcp
de temps et d'?nergie ? pr?parer le vote, et regardez
comment on me traite)

2) Ou la force (genre : c'est de fa?on ?vidente la
meilleure fa?on de voter imaginable, tout le monde
sait ?a parfaitement)

3) En ridiculisant l'adversaire (genre : tout le monde
a eu le temps de les faire ces logos, eh ! imb?cile va
!)

4) En les accusant de parler pour les autres de fa?on
abusive (genre : arr?te de parler pour les autres, ils
n'ont qu'? s'exprimer eux m?me -> impliquant que ton
avis est idiot, et que les autres eux ont bien compris
la bonne technique et qu'on les empeche de parler)

5) En faisant mousser ceux qui sont d'accord et en les
appelant ? faire partie du d?bat (genre : Je suis tout
? fait d'accord avec x, qui a tout ? fait raison -> ?a
tombe bien, ils sont du meme avis)

6) D?vier la discussion des sujets importants (genre :
si quelqu'un critique le vote, attaque les sur le fait
qu'ils ont demand? un report de deadline un mois plus
tot)

7) Attaque pour ignorance (genre : tu ne connais rien
au sujet et tu n'as rien compris aux diff?rentes
techniques de votes, alors evite d'en parler -> voir
derni?res discussions sur m?ta avec Taw)

8) Implique que les questions des autres peuvent avoir
des cons?quences catastrophique (genre : tu demandes
un report de deadlines, mais !!! on va jamais arriver
? voter pour un logo si on reporte encore de 2 jours
!!!)

9) Pr?judice (genre : on a l'habitude que je fasse les
choses tr?s bien -> implique qu'ici encore je les fait
parfaitement)

10) Appel ? autorit? (genre : help Jimbo, vient donc
me soutenir !)

11) D?moraliser l'adversaire (genre : cette
conversation devient inamicale, je quitte le sujet)

Et j'en passe, parce que c'est l'heure d'aller au
boulot. Dans tous les cas, le r?sultat est le m?me...

Game over

Amicalement

Anthere

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Lost and missing images

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 01:29, Tim Starling wrote:
> .... not
> including about 15 images that somehow were uploaded with an initial
> lower case letter.

Files are dated August 29, 2002. Looks like an old conversion script
error; these files will be inaccessible through the wiki anyway...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] English Wikipedia down

body:
Big thanks to Jason for driving back down to San Diego to bang on the
server again; we finally got it back up and online about a half hour
ago.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] English Wikipedia down


subject: [Wikitech-l] Requesting CVS access

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 01:11, Chris Seaton wrote:
> chrisseaton

Great, you're added.

See section "Developer CVS Access via SSH" here:
https://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=34373

If you've already got an anonymous pull from the cvs, you may need to
pull it fresh with your login.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Minor fixes to stable

body:
A couple things added recently:

* Pages containing '{{' (as indicator of replacement variables -- date,
number of articles etc) are expired from the page cache after 1 hour.
This helps with the less-often-edited mainpages on some languages, where
"today's date" and "we have X articles" was often wildly inaccurate for
incoming anons.

* When database is locked, 'edit page' shows a read-only text field with
the article text (if on a non-empty page) so text can be copied out and
edited offline.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Textbook-l] Problem connecting to wikibooks

body:
That was fixed within about 30 seconds.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Alexandre Dulaunoy

subject: [Wikipedia-l] English Wikipedia down

body:
On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Brion Vibber wrote:

> The web server 'larousse' which holds the English wikipedia (and
> test.wikipedia.org) is down due to problems with a software upgrade that
> will require some on-site maintenance.
>
> I've called Jason, he's on his way (thanks Jason!); hopefully this
> should be sorted out within a few hours.
>
> Sorry for the inconvenience...

No problems. One question :

Do  you plan  to  provide official  read  only mirrors  ? A  dedicated
version for the wiki updates and  mirrors for read only access. If you
want, I  can easily setup a  mirror located in Europe  on an important
research network.

Have a nice day,

adulau

--
-- 	  	     Alexandre Dulaunoy (adulau) -- http://www.foo.be/
-- 	   http://pgp.ael.be:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x44E6CBCD
-- 	   "Knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance
-- 				  that we can solve them" Isaac Asimov


from_name: Merritt L. Perkins

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Writing articles, discussion

body:
I have some flowers, rose of Sharon, in my yard, but did not find them
described in the Encyclopedia. I wrote an article about them.
I got my first computer in 1989 and built this computer designed for
writing magazine articles about a year ago. I only use a few program and
am not familiar with many programs at most other people know.
I dictated an article about rose of Sharon using Dragon?s
NaturallySpeaking 7 as I would if it was to be printed on paper. Reading
the Winkipedia edit instructions I find that many changes need to be
made. Inclosing a word in double square brackets you can link it to
something, but now does it know what to link to? By inclosing words
between two symbols you can make thin boldface, italic, underline, etc.
There are a lot of such things to learn..
I tried to go to the sandbox to practice but all I could do was move the
cursor around.
I would like to discuss this article with other people and get their
comments. Rose of Sharon is mentioned in the Bible, Should I tell where
and quote the passage? Bibles are copyrighted but that should not affect
quoting the text. What does the verse means?
I have pernicious anemia , and I can write about what it is, how is
diagnosed and treated. The doctor may order a blood test for vitamin B12
and other conditions that may be present.. I can describe how the sample
is taken I have more information on vitamin B12 than is in the
Encyclopedia.
Count Rumsford was born in Massachusetts , and was an Englishman. No one
else who was English had the title of count. He founded the Royal
Institution.
John Townsend Trowbridge wrote books for boys. Should we include a poem
that he wrote?
I would like to find someplace where these things can be discussed before
they are ready for the encyclopedia.
Merritt L. Perkins


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo contest

body:
> Message: 1
> Date: 08 Sep 2003 21:58:00 +0200
> From: Till Westermayer <till at tillwe.de>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Logo contest
> To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <8tUc3A48bzB at westermayer-74391.user.cis.dfn.de>
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> . till we *) . . .
>
> Hi,
>
> >It looks like some specific decisions are going to
> have to be
> >made, and in a timely fashion, and so I'm hereby
> officially
> >authorizing Erik to make structural adjustments to
> the contest as
> >necessary and in the spirit of openness as much as
> is feasible, so
> >that we can come to a quick resolution that we can
> all support.
>
> *grin*
>
> finally ... the benevolent dictator at work ...
>
> (No, it's okay for me, even if I don't like the way
> these things work.
> Only real problem with delegating the benevolent
> dictatorship re
> structural contests adjustments to Erik is finalist
> logo entry #10 ...).
>
> Regards,

I think it is more constructive we discuss voting
techniques before a vote than after, as people are
more motivated to understand and participate.
I am sure a couple of people (me included) understand
better now than before.
Previous discussions on the topic, without anything to
vote on, I just didnot really look at :-)

Now, does the benevolent dictator comment means that
all discussion is over, or does that just mean a
renewal of trust in Erik ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Pour Aoi

body:
Heu... j'ai pas tout suivi...
Tu parles de qui/quoi ?
Le 11) en tout cas c'est moi, je me reconnais :o)
En fait, je quitte surtout la conversation parce que
1) ecrire en anglais est fatiguant pour moi
2) j'ai dit ce que j'avais a dire, et j'ai pas grand
chose a ajouter
3) y le p'tit No? qu'a fait caca sur l'tapis, faut que
j'vous laisse...

Aoineko

----

soupir

Pas grave Aoi. Tu as raison :-) Nous n'avons pas grand
chose ? faire ici :-) Bisous ? No?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Minor fixes to stable

body:
Brion Vibber said:
> * When database is locked, 'edit page' shows a read-only text field with
> the article text (if on a non-empty page) so text can be copied out and
> edited offline.

Can we get this for protected pages during normal operation as well? I saw
(reading through archives) a WikiEN-l post suggesting it from January 1st
(which you expressed agreement with).

--Jake


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] I'm shopping today for upgrades

body:
See notes and questions, below...
>Pliny - Running MySQL, Apache 1.3.27 and kernel 2.4.20  and the
>non-English Wikis
>
>Tyan S2462 motherboard
>2 Gig RAM (4 512Meg modules of ECC Reg. 266 MHz PC2100 DDR RAM in 4
>slots)
>2 Processor AMD Athlon MP 1800+/266FSB
>Adaptec AIC-7899P SCSI U160 controller
>1 IBM 36 GB SCSI Ultra 160 / 10 K RPM
>1 IBM 36 GB SCSI Ultra 320 / 10 K RPM (running as U160, of course)
>Dual onboard 3Com 10/100 (3C982) adapters

To give this machine some oomph, I could buy 4 pieces of 1 Gb
PC2100 266 RAM for a total of 4 gig for this machine, at $123 each.

Then, we could also do a CPU upgrade, I assume any Athlon MP with a
266 FSB would do?  The fastest one I see is Athlon MP 2800, $241.
This is a Socket A?  (Please verify by looking up the motherboard
specs?)

So that's $482 for new processors, $492 for more ram.  And presumably,
those 512Mb pieces could be used elsewhere someday?  Total cost, then
is:  $974

>Larousse - Running Apache 1.3.27 and kernel 2.4.20 and the English Wiki
>
>TYAN S2518UGN motherboard
>2Gig RAM (4 512Meg modules of ECC Reg. 133 MHz PC133 SDRAM in 4 slots)
>Pentium III 866MHz processor w/256K cache
>Adaptec AIC-7899 SCSI U160 controller
>1 Quantum Atlas 18 GB SCSI U160 Drive, currently unused and known to
>  be troublesome (It's awaiting some tsting which I have put off due to
>  the high load on the system)
>1 IBM 36 GB SCSI U160 Drive
>Dual onboard Intel 10/100 (eepro) adapters

This one is a bit trickier, so I suspect that a better route to go
with this one would be a motherboard upgrade.  After all, a PIII/866
is very tired technology now.

I found a Tyan S2462NG (the same as in pliny?) with a single 2800
processor for $585.  Throw in another 2800 the same as above, for
$241, and throw in the same 4 gig of DDR ram as above, $492.

So that's 585+492+241= $1318 to make this machine identical (or
anyhow, similar) to pliny.

So $1318+974 = $2292 total cost.

Since I priced all these things from different suppliers, I'd have to
study out the options for shipping costs, etc.  But anyhow for $2500,
we'd have this stuff for Wikipedia.  That'd be a huge improvement, I
think, while also leaving us with two nearly identical machines, and
thus well-poised for these two to be equal load-balancing frontend
webservers in the future, when we may buy a MEGA MONDO db machine.

I looked hard at AMD Opteron machines as an alternative.  For around
$6,000, we could get a pretty decent Opteron machine.  But this
tech. is so new that the options for motherboards and the like are not
very many.  For example, it's sort of hard (not impossible!) to find
Opteron/SCSI machines -- many vendors are like Penguin Computing,
i.e. they are currently only offering a single Opteron alternative,
and it isn't SCSI.

So my thinking is that we beef up the processors and ram in what we
have now, and at the same time prepare for a new architecture in the
near future.

--Jimbo


subject: [Textbook-l] Re: Next Of Kin.

body:
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:26:25 +0200
> From: "MR Job Kwanta" <web_cux at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Textbook-l] Next Of Kin.
> To: textbook-l at wikipedia.org
> Message-ID:
> <200309081218.h88CI6n18653 at pliny.wikipedia.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>
>
> I am MR Job Kwanta, a solicitor at law.
> I am the personal attorney to A Late MR Hood,
> native of your country, who used to Deal on Diamonds
> Here in Congo.

Btw, thanks very much for the mail software update,
with the spam hunter :-)

It is working great, and what a pleasure to add
spamers to a list of emails automatically rejected :-)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Lost and missing images

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 06:04, Tim Starling wrote:
> "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com> wrote in
> message news:1063091805.10103.9.camel at frank.vibber.org...
> > On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 01:29, Tim Starling wrote:
> > > .... not
> > > including about 15 images that somehow were uploaded with an initial
> > > lower case letter.
> >
> > Files are dated August 29, 2002. Looks like an old conversion script
> > error;
>
> Not all of them...

Yes, all of the lowercase ones.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
> Looks good to me, Jimbo - although if you're going to make the machines
> identical, don't you need an additional 36GB drive for larousse?

Yeah, I guess you're right.  I'm also going to look into our RAID
options, because it sure would be nice to have RAID for redundancy,
to improve our reliability going forward.


from_name: Nick Reinking

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [ibiblio.org #1267] Question for you (Wikipedia)

body:
On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 07:36:28PM -0400, John via RT wrote:
>
> Nick,
>
> My apologies for not responding sooner.  I've picked up this ticket
> since Donald has left, and we've been extremely busy.  Part of your
> request for wikipedia was pending infrastructure upgrades on our end to
> handle the load.  We have web and database server improvements in place,
> so I'd like to open things up again.
>
> We had talked about a wikipedia mirror, and I'm curious what that would
> mean in terms of storage requirements and traffic.  Would you offer
> "mirror" links throughout the site?
>
> Since we have more system resources to offer, is there any interest in
> having ibiblio host all of wikipedia.org?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> -John R.

I will forward this on to our technical mailing list.  At this point, we
aren't looking to move everything to ibiblio.org, but I believe we are
still interested in a read-only copy that forwards "edits" to
wikipedia.org.  But, I am not the final arbiter, so I shall see what our
consensus is.  Thanks again, John!

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


subject: [Wikitech-l] Requesting CVS access

body:
Can someone with the required privs give me CVS developer access? I'm a
sysop on the English Wikipedaa (as Cgs), and I'm eager to comit patches
I've written but I think I'll need to do it myself.

My SF id = 558989
--
Chris Seaton

chris at chrisseaton.com
http://www.chrisseaton.com/


body:
Nick Reinking wrote:
> Definitely.  Do we have any kind of tape backup for our database dumps?
> Are they kept onsite or offsite if we do?

Tape sucks!

I think lots of people backup the database dumps periodically, all
over the world.  I do, anyway, once a week I think, but I should check
my cron job.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] Requesting CVS access

body:
chrisseaton

On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 07:33, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 00:59, Chris Seaton wrote:
> > Can someone with the required privs give me CVS developer access? I'm a
> > sysop on the English Wikipedaa (as Cgs), and I'm eager to comit patches
> > I've written but I think I'll need to do it myself.
> >
> > My SF id = 558989
>
> I'm not sure I can do anything with just the id number... what's your
> login name?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Steve Vertigum

subject: [WikiEN-l] English Wikipedia down

body:
I believer this is the first time I have ever seen a
use of the term "borked" in a discussion before.

Newbies should be clued in that the term comes from
the nomination hearing of a Judge Bork to the Supreme
court (or a federal bench) -- where Democrates blocked
the Regan nominee. Hence the term, referring to a
blockage or an act of blockage.

If I ever bothered with wiktionary, Id add a "borking"
entry :-)
-S-

--- Chong Yidong <cyd at stupidchicken.com> wrote:
> Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:
>
> > Big thanks to Jason for driving back down to San
> Diego to bang on the
> > server again; we finally got it back up and online
> about a half hour
> > ago.
>
> Thanks. However, creating new TeX equations seems to
> be borked. For
> example, try to create a page containing
>
> :<math>\sum_{i=1}^{10} g^2</math>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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body:
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 07:52:54AM -0700, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> See notes and questions, below...
> >Pliny - Running MySQL, Apache 1.3.27 and kernel 2.4.20  and the
> >non-English Wikis
> >
> >Tyan S2462 motherboard
> >2 Gig RAM (4 512Meg modules of ECC Reg. 266 MHz PC2100 DDR RAM in 4
> >slots)
> >2 Processor AMD Athlon MP 1800+/266FSB
> >Adaptec AIC-7899P SCSI U160 controller
> >1 IBM 36 GB SCSI Ultra 160 / 10 K RPM
> >1 IBM 36 GB SCSI Ultra 320 / 10 K RPM (running as U160, of course)
> >Dual onboard 3Com 10/100 (3C982) adapters
>
> To give this machine some oomph, I could buy 4 pieces of 1 Gb
> PC2100 266 RAM for a total of 4 gig for this machine, at $123 each.
>
> Then, we could also do a CPU upgrade, I assume any Athlon MP with a
> 266 FSB would do?  The fastest one I see is Athlon MP 2800, $241.
> This is a Socket A?  (Please verify by looking up the motherboard
> specs?)
>
> So that's $482 for new processors, $492 for more ram.  And presumably,
> those 512Mb pieces could be used elsewhere someday?  Total cost, then
> is:  $974
>
> >Larousse - Running Apache 1.3.27 and kernel 2.4.20 and the English Wiki
> >
> >TYAN S2518UGN motherboard
> >2Gig RAM (4 512Meg modules of ECC Reg. 133 MHz PC133 SDRAM in 4 slots)
> >Pentium III 866MHz processor w/256K cache
> >Adaptec AIC-7899 SCSI U160 controller
> >1 Quantum Atlas 18 GB SCSI U160 Drive, currently unused and known to
> >  be troublesome (It's awaiting some tsting which I have put off due to
> >  the high load on the system)
> >1 IBM 36 GB SCSI U160 Drive
> >Dual onboard Intel 10/100 (eepro) adapters
>
> This one is a bit trickier, so I suspect that a better route to go
> with this one would be a motherboard upgrade.  After all, a PIII/866
> is very tired technology now.
>
> I found a Tyan S2462NG (the same as in pliny?) with a single 2800
> processor for $585.  Throw in another 2800 the same as above, for
> $241, and throw in the same 4 gig of DDR ram as above, $492.
>
> So that's 585+492+241= $1318 to make this machine identical (or
> anyhow, similar) to pliny.
>
> So $1318+974 = $2292 total cost.
>
> Since I priced all these things from different suppliers, I'd have to
> study out the options for shipping costs, etc.  But anyhow for $2500,
> we'd have this stuff for Wikipedia.  That'd be a huge improvement, I
> think, while also leaving us with two nearly identical machines, and
> thus well-poised for these two to be equal load-balancing frontend
> webservers in the future, when we may buy a MEGA MONDO db machine.
>
> I looked hard at AMD Opteron machines as an alternative.  For around
> $6,000, we could get a pretty decent Opteron machine.  But this
> tech. is so new that the options for motherboards and the like are not
> very many.  For example, it's sort of hard (not impossible!) to find
> Opteron/SCSI machines -- many vendors are like Penguin Computing,
> i.e. they are currently only offering a single Opteron alternative,
> and it isn't SCSI.
>
> So my thinking is that we beef up the processors and ram in what we
> have now, and at the same time prepare for a new architecture in the
> near future.
>
> --Jimbo

Looks good to me, Jimbo - although if you're going to make the machines
identical, don't you need an additional 36GB drive for larousse?

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


from_name: KNOTT, T

body:
I just tried to connect and got the following error message:

Warning: main(/DatabaseFunctions.php) [function.main]: failed to create
stream: No such file or directory in
/usr/local/apache/common/php/GlobalFunctions.php on line 9

Warning: main() [function.main]: Failed opening '/DatabaseFunctions.php' for
inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/apache/common/php') in
/usr/local/apache/common/php/GlobalFunctions.php on line 9

Warning: main(/UpdateClasses.php) [function.main]: failed to create stream:
No such file or directory in
/usr/local/apache/common/php/GlobalFunctions.php on line 10

Warning: main() [function.main]: Failed opening '/UpdateClasses.php' for
inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/apache/common/php') in
/usr/local/apache/common/php/GlobalFunctions.php on line 10

Warning: main(/LogPage.php) [function.main]: failed to create stream: No
such file or directory in /usr/local/apache/common/php/GlobalFunctions.php
on line 11

Warning: main() [function.main]: Failed opening '/LogPage.php' for inclusion
(include_path='.:/usr/local/apache/common/php') in
/usr/local/apache/common/php/GlobalFunctions.php on line 11

Warning: main(/Setup.php) [function.main]: failed to create stream: No such
file or directory in /usr/local/apache/common/wiki.phtml on line 14

Warning: main() [function.main]: Failed opening '/Setup.php' for inclusion
(include_path='.:/usr/local/apache/common/php') in
/usr/local/apache/common/wiki.phtml on line 14

Fatal error: Undefined class name 'outputpage' in
/usr/local/apache/common/wiki.phtml on line 17


subject: [WikiEN-l] English Wikipedia down

references:
<1063061575.14784.96.camel@rdaneel.leuksman.com>
	<1063091970.10103.12.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<lcn0dew36w.fsf@physics.stanford.edu>

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 05:34, Chong Yidong wrote:
> Thanks. However, creating new TeX equations seems to be borked. For
> example, try to create a page containing
>
> :<math>\sum_{i=1}^{10} g^2</math>

Okay, I think this is sorted out.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Writing articles, discussion errata

body:
--- "Merritt L. Perkins" <mlperkins3 at juno.com> wrote:
> I have some flowers, rose of Sharon, in my yard, but
> did not find them
> described in the Encyclopedia. I wrote an article
> about them.

Wonderful.
> I got my first computer in 1989 and built this
> computer designed for
> writing magazine articles about a year ago. I only
> use a few program and
> am not familiar with many programs at most other
> people know.

Ah-behind the curve, eh? Arent we all. Read, I
say--read!

> I dictated an article about rose of Sharon using
> Dragon???s
> NaturallySpeaking 7 as I would if it was to be
> printed on paper. Reading
> the Winkipedia edit instructions I find that many
> changes need to be
> made.

Natually.

> Inclosing a word in double square brackets you
> can link it to
> something, but now does it know what to link to?

Faith. The word is [[enclosing]] by the way. And they
run on faith in the developers--people who know how it
works.
(But you dont need to know about electrons in order to
watch a football game do you?

>By
> inclosing words
> between two symbols you can make thin boldface,
> italic, underline, etc.
> There are a lot of such things to learn..

Yeah. It takes time. Read a lot, I say.

> I tried to go to the sandbox to practice but all I
> could do was move the
> cursor around.
> I would like to discuss this article with other
> people and get their
> comments.

Maybe you can ask someone to help you -- learn how to
wiki with you.

> Rose of Sharon is mentioned in the Bible,
> Should I tell where
> and quote the passage? Bibles are copyrighted but
> that should not affect
> quoting the text. What does the verse means?

Yes, if its pertinent to the article -- add it. If you
go overboard someone else will clue you in. I dont
know what the verse means.

> I have pernicious anemia , and I can write about
> what it is, how is
> diagnosed and treated. The doctor may order a blood
> test for vitamin B12
> and other conditions that may be present.. I can
> describe how the sample
> is taken I have more information on vitamin B12 than
> is in the Encyclopedia.

Im sorry to hear about your disease. On the other
hand, this might make for a good article.  Remember
how? A hint: --LOGIN-  make a link on your own
userpage. (you can do almost anything you want with
it) -- then click on that link and add whatever you
can. Then save. TADAA-- I cant be easier.

> Count Rumsford was born in Massachusetts , and was
> an Englishman. No one
> else who was English had the title of count. He
> founded the Royal
> Institution.

Well add this as an entry then too, dagummit.  No one
esle appears  interested.

> John Townsend Trowbridge wrote books for boys.
> Should we include a poem
> that he wrote?

No -- Well, I wouldnt think one poem is a bad idea, if
its brief. But this is an encyclopedia. Were working
on another incarnation called wikisource (or
sourcewiki) where original works can be added by the
public. The idea is to keep the editable articles
separate from the uneditable originals.

> I would like to find someplace where these things
> can be discussed before
> they are ready for the encyclopedia.

[[Wikipedia:Village pump]]
(I think we need a separate [[newbie village pump]]
for newbies-- what do you think, Merritt?

And the connecting idea between all of these disparate
elements is? Its *you, my good man. Good luck, and be
BOLD in editing. (If you get too bold, well just block
your IP address.)

-S-

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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from_name: Thomas R. Koll

subject: [Wikipedia-l] English Wikipedia down

body:
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 01:08:31AM +0200, Alexandre Dulaunoy wrote:
> Do  you plan  to  provide official  read  only mirrors  ? A  dedicated
> version for the wiki updates and  mirrors for read only access. If you
> want, I  can easily setup a  mirror located in Europe  on an important
> research network.

You should read meat.wikipedia.org better. There are tarballs of the
current (cur) and version-history (old) database available. Just
download the cur db and the wikipedia software and I'm sure you won't need
hours to install both. You must set the database read-only to
have a good mirror of the site.

ciao, tom
--
http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
   -.-       http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
   /|>	        Urlaub? http://www.tomk32.de/fewo-koll/
   / \              http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] English Wikipedia down

body:
PS: Personally I think it would be a very good idea to have the european
languages (except english) located in the old world. But the foundation
and it's fund raising might make that possible someday.

ciao, tom
--
http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
   -.-       http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
   /|>	        Urlaub? http://www.tomk32.de/fewo-koll/
   / \              http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com


body:
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 08:49:01AM -0700, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > Looks good to me, Jimbo - although if you're going to make the machines
> > identical, don't you need an additional 36GB drive for larousse?
>
> Yeah, I guess you're right.  I'm also going to look into our RAID
> options, because it sure would be nice to have RAID for redundancy,
> to improve our reliability going forward.

Definitely.  Do we have any kind of tape backup for our database dumps?
Are they kept onsite or offsite if we do?

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


body:
I'll try and be a bit more patient in the future.

Theresa

-----Original Message-----
From: Brion Vibber [mailto:brion at pobox.com]
Sent: 09 September 2003 08:56
To: Wikimedia textbook discussion
Subject: Re: [Textbook-l] Problem connecting to wikibooks

That was fixed within about 30 seconds.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
_______________________________________________
Textbook-l mailing list
Textbook-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Getting patches comitted to CVS

body:
Chris Seaton wrote:
> I don't want to nag, but I mailed a patch (modification to the colonge
> blue stylesheet) to this list a while ago and it hasn't been comitted to
> CVS. Was I right to send it to this list or should it have gone
> elsewhere? Do I have to do something special to get it comitted?

There are two methods of getting things done around here:

a) nagging
b) doing it yourself

(b) is usually easier than (a), so I suggest you do some of (a) to Brion
and get yourself CVS write access.

Long, long ago, Chris Seaton wrote:
 > Hello,
 >
 > I have some extra time on my hands so I'm looking to do some development
 > on Wikipedia, as people always seem to be complaining about a lack of
 > developers.
 >
 > I'm just getting the hang of things, browsing the source. I'm a good PHP
 > developer, but databases aren't my strong point (I can use them, but
 > can't really administer them).

I didn't know how to do either 6 months ago. I guess it depends on how
much time you've got to spend.

 > This is just a little patch to modify the fonts of the stats section of
 > the colonge skin. This section is currently in serif, but the rest of
 > the page is in a sans font, so it looks out of
 >
 > I was just planning to go through bugs and feature requests looking for
 > things that I can manage, is there something more pressing that you
 > would like to direct me to?

The sourceforge tracker is okay, but IMHO the best place to start is:

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_tasks

If you don't want to get into the DB side at this stage, perhaps you
should look at the UI. For example, at the moment users cannot access
the wikitext source of a protected page, and they can't get it if
they're blocked either. This is a GFDL violation.

The "code quality" section of the above page might also be up your
alley. If you're the violent type, there's plenty to be done maiming and
killing global variables.

 > Also, how frequently is the English wikipedia updated to use the CVS
 > code?

See http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_policy. In theory
unstable->stable takes 3-10 days, then stable->live is "regularly". In
practice the unstable->stable step requires testing and debugging, and
until that's done, features just sit in unstable.

If you add a feature, you should always include the ability to switch it
on and off, using a global defined in DefaultSettings.php. This smooths
over the unstable->stable transition, and lessens "political" problems
involving controversial features.

-- Tim Starling.


in_reply_to:
<8tTHEpOCpVB@erik_moeller>;
	from erik_moeller@gmx.de on Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 10:44:00AM +0200

body:
I don't know anything about wikimedia.de, but I am under the
impression that the wikipedia.ru fellow is happy to turn over the
name.  Did I miss something else that was said about it?

What's the story on wikimedia.de?

--Jimbo


in_reply_to:
<8tUatmNtbzB@westermayer-74391.user.cis.dfn.de>;
	from till@tillwe.de on Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 12:16:00PM +0200

body:
Till Westermayer wrote:
> So, the obvious question is: who made Erik the vote coordinator?

I did, ultimately.  He started out organizing things on his own
initiative, but I have fully endorsed what he's doing.  (Not
necessarily in every little detail, of course, but I trust he'll do
the right thing.  Trusting people is the wiki way.)

> Yes, even I find it quite unusual to think that way -- every "free" work
> works that way. So what? What about the people who submitted logos? What
> about the people who took their time and voted?

They are all wonderful people, and I personally remain perpetually
astonished at how wonderful this all is!

> Maybe it slows down the voting a bit, but also it helps us to find a
> voting system that fits wikipedia. So maybe this slow discussion is
> helpful after all, in the longer run.

Sure!  It's the wikipedia way to discuss everything to death in public
forums for months until a rough consensus is achieved, and then of
course to be accused of all decisions being made in secret, overnight,
and by absolute fiat.  :-)

--Jimbo


from_name: Chong Yidong

subject: [WikiEN-l] English Wikipedia down

body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:

> Big thanks to Jason for driving back down to San Diego to bang on the
> server again; we finally got it back up and online about a half hour
> ago.

Thanks. However, creating new TeX equations seems to be borked. For
example, try to create a page containing

:<math>\sum_{i=1}^{10} g^2</math>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: logo contest

body:
Hi Erik,

I'm one of the people that like the logo (maybe I even
voted for it), so
I would say it should stay, even if in general
organizers of elections
shouldn't be candidates at the same time. What do
others think?

Regards,

Till

That we should not make such a fuss over that. In case
Erik feels like removing his logo, I will propose it
myself :-) I am no organiser, but I took the pict, so
I feel a tiny bit of property toward it :-)

Seriously, in this case, let's not
bother...but...generally, I think it make sense that
anyone acting as a sort of mediator/organiser in
anything should not be personnaly involved himself.

I think it is a bit the same that trying to help in an
edit war, or even just a pending discussion which gets
nowhere.

Another option would be that a
contest/conflict/discussion be lead by two (or more)
people, each one representing a party.

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: logo contest (Miwiki nonsense)

body:
Since youre here Anthere,

Maybe I can axe you a couple questions... I actually
like the idea of merging ideas and such with two
winning logo desigs merging to make something better,
but Im not sure that the way whats his name has been
going about it is bordering on --well being rude and
whatnot.
Besides, just throwing a toony 7th place ant on a
winning (and shaping up) 1st place logo, only makes
the ant look like something we should stomp on.

But I also like the ant as a concept animal -- for a
mascot probably even more than I like the Wikipede --
which was a clever play on the wikipedia name, but
doesnt necessarily mean anything internationally.  I
mention on the Wikipedie bio that the only reason he
looks cute at all is because he only has six
appendages instead of a hundred. In that silly sense,
the Wikipedia is less of a centipede than it is an ant
anyway.

But what I really want to know --this sort of cheezy
way of trying to curvumvent the voting process on the
mascot--- Is this just a case of 'pushy French
attitude' ;) or am I missing something?

Culturally illiterate,
-S-

--- Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Erik,
>
> I'm one of the people that like the logo (maybe I
> even
> voted for it), so
> I would say it should stay, even if in general
> organizers of elections
> shouldn't be candidates at the same time. What do
> others think?
>
> Regards,
>
> Till
>
> That we should not make such a fuss over that. In
> case
> Erik feels like removing his logo, I will propose it
> myself :-) I am no organiser, but I took the pict,
> so
> I feel a tiny bit of property toward it :-)
>
> Seriously, in this case, let's not
> bother...but...generally, I think it make sense that
> anyone acting as a sort of mediator/organiser in
> anything should not be personnaly involved himself.
>
> I think it is a bit the same that trying to help in
> an
> edit war, or even just a pending discussion which
> gets
> nowhere.
>
> Another option would be that a
> contest/conflict/discussion be lead by two (or more)
> people, each one representing a party.
>

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikidown address

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 14:33, Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
> Yesterday I sent mail to wikidown @ both bomis.com and wikipedia.org;
> both mails were bounced. Since wikidown at bomis.com was apparently getting
> spammed, I can understand if it was closed, but what's the new wikidown
> address?

Tim Starling's been putting together a developer contact list (including
phone numbers etc). We could probably set up a new, less spammable,
e-mail forwarding address.

Also: http://openfacts.berlios.de/index-en.phtml?title=Wikipedia_Status

> This was during the server problem yesterday of which I only heard today,
> since I get only digests of Wikitech-l. It might be a good idea to have
> another computer that, when larousse/pliny is down, can be assigned the
> IP .197 or .199, webserve all requests with a message saying when the
> Wikipedia will be back up, and cache the e-mail to the mailing lists.
> A regular desktop computer could probably handle this.

It would be a good idea to have another computer... :)

I should point out that during the majority of the outage on larousse,
pliny took over its IP and was serving requests for www.wikipedia.org,
albeit limited to read-only and missing images (being outside the
database).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Matt M.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 2, Issue 23

body:
> I have some flowers, rose of Sharon, in my yard, but did not find them
> described in the Encyclopedia. I wrote an article about them.

Marvellous :)

> I got my first computer in 1989 and built this computer designed for
> writing magazine articles about a year ago. I only use a few program and
> am not familiar with many programs at most other people know.
> I dictated an article about rose of Sharon using Dragon's
> NaturallySpeaking 7 as I would if it was to be printed on paper. Reading
> the Winkipedia edit instructions I find that many changes need to be
> made. Inclosing a word in double square brackets you can link it to
> something, but now does it know what to link to?

If you write [[Pierre Elliott Trudeau]], it will make it so that when
someone clicks on the words "Pierre Elliott Trudeau", it will link to the
article entitled "Pierre Elliott Trudeau"
(http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Elliott_Trudeau ).

If you write [[eggplant|aubergine]] (one piece of text, then a pipe | , then
another piece of text), your article will have the text "aubergine" which
when you click on it, will link to the article entitled "eggplant".

> I would like to discuss this article with other people and get their
> comments. Rose of Sharon is mentioned in the Bible, Should I tell where
> and quote the passage? Bibles are copyrighted but that should not affect
> quoting the text. What does the verse means?

The bible quote would be quite welcome. I would suggest using the King James
Bible or another edition of the Bible upon which the copyright has expired.

> I have pernicious anemia , and I can write about what it is, how is
> diagnosed and treated. The doctor may order a blood test for vitamin B12
> and other conditions that may be present.. I can describe how the sample
> is taken I have more information on vitamin B12 than is in the
> Encyclopedia.

Wonderful; you should update the article on Vitamin B12 and on pernicious
anemia.

> Count Rumsford was born in Massachusetts , and was an Englishman. No one
> else who was English had the title of count. He founded the Royal
> Institution.

OK, you should put that in the relevant article.

> John Townsend Trowbridge wrote books for boys. Should we include a poem
> that he wrote?

Unless the poem is short, no. ideally Wikipedia is not a repository for
source material. You may link to a poem on another website, and/or include a
short quotation from the poem.

I hope this helps.

Matt (Montrealais)


from_name: Geoffrey Thomas

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikidown address

body:
Yesterday I sent mail to wikidown @ both bomis.com and wikipedia.org;
both mails were bounced. Since wikidown at bomis.com was apparently getting
spammed, I can understand if it was closed, but what's the new wikidown
address?

This was during the server problem yesterday of which I only heard today,
since I get only digests of Wikitech-l. It might be a good idea to have
another computer that, when larousse/pliny is down, can be assigned the
IP .197 or .199, webserve all requests with a message saying when the
Wikipedia will be back up, and cache the e-mail to the mailing lists.
A regular desktop computer could probably handle this.

=====
-Geoffrey Thomas
geoffreyerffoeg at yahoo.com

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from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Pour Aoineko

body:
> > Aoineko wrote:
> > >If we must vote for a final logo (no change after
> vote)
> > >I think we really need a lot of variants and I
> think 1
> > >week is very short to be able to create all them.
> >
> > They already had an entire month to create variants
> silly!
> >
> > --mav
>
> I suppose that someone who don't know if its logo will
> pass the first
> round,
> don't make all variants in advance. Ask the finalists,
> imho, they are
> the
> ones who have to choose submission deadline.
> This discussion turn unfriendly, I will stop it here.
> In fact I'm out from 12 to 28 so this vote don't
> concern me ;o)
> Regards,
>
> Aoineko
>
> Aoi,
>
> Comment rester maitre seul sur le plateau ?
>
> Eliminer un ? un les opposants en les d?moralisant
>
> 1) En faisant appel ? la piti? (genre : j'ai pass? bcp
> de temps et d'?nergie ? pr?parer le vote, et regardez
> comment on me traite)
>
> 2) Ou la force (genre : c'est de fa?on ?vidente la
> meilleure fa?on de voter imaginable, tout le monde
> sait ?a parfaitement)
>
> 3) En ridiculisant l'adversaire (genre : tout le monde
> a eu le temps de les faire ces logos, eh ! imb?cile va
> !)
>
> 4) En les accusant de parler pour les autres de fa?on
> abusive (genre : arr?te de parler pour les autres, ils
> n'ont qu'? s'exprimer eux m?me -> impliquant que ton
> avis est idiot, et que les autres eux ont bien compris
> la bonne technique et qu'on les empeche de parler)
>
> 5) En faisant mousser ceux qui sont d'accord et en les
> appelant ? faire partie du d?bat (genre : Je suis tout
> ? fait d'accord avec x, qui a tout ? fait raison -> ?a
> tombe bien, ils sont du meme avis)
>
> 6) D?vier la discussion des sujets importants (genre :
> si quelqu'un critique le vote, attaque les sur le fait
> qu'ils ont demand? un report de deadline un mois plus
> tot)
>
> 7) Attaque pour ignorance (genre : tu ne connais rien
> au sujet et tu n'as rien compris aux diff?rentes
> techniques de votes, alors evite d'en parler -> voir
> derni?res discussions sur m?ta avec Taw)
>
> 8) Implique que les questions des autres peuvent avoir
> des cons?quences catastrophique (genre : tu demandes
> un report de deadlines, mais !!! on va jamais arriver
> ? voter pour un logo si on reporte encore de 2 jours
> !!!)
>
> 9) Pr?judice (genre : on a l'habitude que je fasse les
> choses tr?s bien -> implique qu'ici encore je les fait
> parfaitement)
>
> 10) Appel ? autorit? (genre : help Jimbo, vient donc
> me soutenir !)
>
> 11) D?moraliser l'adversaire (genre : cette
> conversation devient inamicale, je quitte le sujet)
>
> Et j'en passe, parce que c'est l'heure d'aller au
> boulot. Dans tous les cas, le r?sultat est le m?me...
>
>
> Game over
>
> Amicalement
>
> Anthere

Heu... j'ai pas tout suivi...
Tu parles de qui/quoi ?
Le 11) en tout cas c'est moi, je me reconnais :o)
En fait, je quitte surtout la conversation parce que
1) ecrire en anglais est fatiguant pour moi
2) j'ai dit ce que j'avais a dire, et j'ai pas grand chose a ajouter
3) y le p'tit No? qu'a fait caca sur l'tapis, faut que j'vous laisse...

Aoineko


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipede Steve

body:
>Since youre here Anthere,

Yes ?

>Maybe I can axe you a couple questions... I actually
>like the idea of merging ideas and such with two
>winning logo desigs merging to make something better,
>but Im not sure that the way whats his name has been
>going about it is bordering on --well being rude and
>whatnot.

Oliezekat is his name.
We call him Kat

>Besides, just throwing a toony 7th place ant on a
>winning (and shaping up) 1st place logo, only makes
>the ant look like something we should stomp on.

I see that people feel that way. But the ant escaped
me a long time ago.
I don't know what toony means. It is not in the
dictionnary.

>But I also like the ant as a concept animal -- for a
>mascot probably even more than I like the Wikipede --
>which was a clever play on the wikipedia name, but
>doesnt necessarily mean anything internationally.  I
>mention on the Wikipedie bio that the only reason he
>looks cute at all is because he only has six
>appendages instead of a hundred. In that silly sense,
>the Wikipedia is less of a centipede than it is an
ant
>anyway.

I like your wikipede very much. I have no problem
finding cute a animal with 100 appendages :-) (in
truth, it is rather about 30 I think).
I think both could be mascot, but I also think both
would not be great mascots, because both animals are
insects, and insects tend not to be liked by many
people. I know the ant is a bit scarry to some people
(I think Angela mentionned it) and probably the
wikipede as well. Very few insects are well perceived.

I do not feel entirely favorable in truth, to a mascot
idea. I do not need that to focus on the concept :)
A great idea imho, is the blown dandelion fruit, used
on our dictionnaries, representing the dispersion of
the seeds of knowledge.

Flowers carry concepts very well. Even cactii :-)

>But what I really want to know --this sort of cheezy
>way of trying to curvumvent the voting process on the
>mascot--- Is this just a case of 'pushy French
>attitude' ;) or am I missing something?

Cheezy ? Lol.
Our cheese are culturally different Steve.

It would be best not to generalize I think.
Unless you want me to pick up one american wikipedian
to generalize a specific type of widely-considered
typical american attitude.

Perhaps, two people are not enough to make hasty
generalization over a whole population. And perhaps
also, here, only pushy people may survive and get
somewhere.

But, yeah, that is pushy :-) I agree.

See the bright side of him : a strong desire of
involvement. A willingness to strengthen communities
ties. Enthousiam !

Usually americans are the pushy ones, french more
attentists and diplomatic. Perhaps here, the french
are the pushy ones, and unable to be diplomatic.
Though, on that whole matter, I think more than one
person lost hir diplomacy.

I don't like spoiling fun others are having. Users
will choose in the end. And being neither diplomatic
nor ambassador, it is not mine to say things :-)

What would you suggest doing Steve ?

>Culturally illiterate,
>-S-

So do I

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipede Steve

body:
>Ant here wrote:
> I don't like spoiling fun others are having. Users
> will choose in the end. And being neither diplomatic
> nor ambassador, it is not mine to say things :-)

Ah... nice try, but youre wrong -- you are firmly
among the *most diplomatic among the Wikipediai, which
may be source of your reputation as a 'diplomat'  ;-)

> What would you suggest doing Steve ?

Prayer ought be of help.

> >Culturally illiterate,
> >-S-
> So do I

The proper way of saying this is "so *is I" (or "so I
is")...

> Flowers carry concepts very well. Even cactii :-)

They do?

> But, yeah, that is pushy :-) I agree.
:-)

> Usually americans are the pushy ones, french more
> attentists and diplomatic. Perhaps here, the french
> are the pushy ones, and unable to be diplomatic.
> Though, on that whole matter, I think more than one
> person lost hir diplomacy.

Well lets not start generalizing ;-)
-S-

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from_name: Adam Bishop

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Slashdot

body:
I don't know if anyone has noticed this yet, but Wikipedia has been
mentioned on Slashdot again, and there have been a few vandals who seem to
have arrived from there in the past few minutes. I suppose the "slashdot
effect" may be imminent...

Adam Bishop

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subject: [Wikitech-l] mod_throttle

body:
In an attempt to keep things moderately under control on en, I've
installed mod_throttle onto larousse's apache:
http://www.snert.com/Software/mod_throttle/

It's still slow, but load has dropped from 20-60 range to 2ish-5ish,
which is rather more comfortable: when I try to do something on the
server, I don't have to wait several minutes for it to finish processing
my ssh login!

The docs for mod_throttle are very vague and short on real-world
examples, so this could be the worst configuration ever. I'm open to
suggestions if anyone's got more of a clue than me...

[brion at larousse conf]$ cat throttle.conf
<IfModule mod_throttle.c>
        # 'Idle' should delay connections rather than refuse them.
        # It's not clear how it reacts to images etc.
        # 5-second minimum within 60-second period?
        ThrottleClientIP 1024 Idle 5 60
        ThrottleMaxDelay 20

        # 'Document' theoretically ignores images, stylesheets,
        # and such. If more than the max # of requests is grabbed
        # within the cutoff period, you're denied with a 503 until
        # the time period runs out.
        # This isn't very elegant, but it may work...

        # 10 requests per minute?
        #ThrottleClientIP 1024 Document 10 60

        # 10 requests per minute, sustained for two minutes?
        #ThrottleClientIP 1024 Document 20 120
</IfModule>

Status info:
http://larousse.wikipedia.org/throttle-status
http://larousse.wikipedia.org/throttle-client-ip (doesn't work)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Timestamps in EDT

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 19:36, Tim Starling wrote:
> Since the server was restarted, timestamps in ~~~~ signatures have been
> displayed in EDT, e.g.:

Should be fixed now. The glibc upgrade debacle had wiped the timezone
configuration.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Lost and missing images

body:
This is basically a notification of work that I'm going to do soon.

I noticed that one of my images (Moment_arm.png) was still in the upload
directory but had disappeared from the DB. I wondered if this was a
common problem. I checked using de:, because it's a bit more manageable.
  I found that out of ~5200 images, more than 60 had no DB entry, not
including about 15 images that somehow were uploaded with an initial
lower case letter. There were maybe half a dozen valid DB entries with
no attached image. I'm going to write a script which reconstructs the
missing DB entries, and I'll run it on each language. I imagine the
reconstructed entries will be attributed to a user called "(unknown)",
or some localised equivalent.

-- Tim Starling.


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] User Kwantus

body:
--- Dante Alighieri <dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com>
> Heh. I swear, I checked last week and 5.2 was still
> current. :) 6 must have
> JUST come out. Anyway, here's Eudora 6.
>
> ? ligature aesch
> ? cent sign
> ? Euro sign
> ? French c with a tail thingy
> ? tilde over an n
> ? umlaut over an a
> ? lowercase delta
> ? ess tsett
>
> Let's see if that works...
>
> -----
> Dante Alighieri
> dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com
>
> "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those
> who maintain their
> neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
>     -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321

Well, that looked OK when I recieved it, but it other
replies to it, it didn't work. I wonder how it'll work
when I send it.

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from_name: Till Westermayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo contest

body:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .

Hi Erik,

I'm one of the people that like the logo (maybe I even voted for it), so
I would say it should stay, even if in general organizers of elections
shouldn't be candidates at the same time. What do others think?

Regards,

Till

>Till-
>> Only real problem with delegating the benevolent dictatorship re
>> structural contests adjustments to Erik is finalist logo entry
>> #10 ...).

>I can withdraw this logo if it is generally considered a problem.
>Some people seem to like it a lot, though, and I was thinking of
>whipping up another couple of variants before the final stage
>begins.

>Regards,

>Erik
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

 __ .
 / / / /                            ... Till Westermayer - till we *)
. .
  . mailto:till at tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072
  . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179
  . . . . .