body:
Jane Halliwell (hundredpurses at hotmail.com) [050616 08:21]:

> 1) Rather than suffer through continued slurs of sockpuppetry, I formally
> request a proper investigation. I want an IP check and I want the admins to
> respect the results.

As one of the poeple who performs such checks (and I get so many requests
for them and the consensus on what I should be able to check is presently
sufficiently unclear that I only do stuff conceivable AC-related, which
this isn't), I can tell you - and anyone who's read [m:CheckUser]] should
also realise - that a lack of IP match would not disprove a thing. Not
having an IP match is pathetically easy to arrange. As such, I'm formally
telling you "no", and admins wouldn't have anything to respect even if
there wasn't a match.

- d.


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] I'm unblocked, but SlimVirgin STILL WON'T LET ME EDIT!

body:
>From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com>
>
>On 6/15/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > As I said before, any admin could unprotect the article; there must be
>at
> > least a couple of dozen who have read these e-mails.  Somehow none have,
> > until now, found your arguments for unprotecting to be compelling;
>perhaps
> > they feel that doing so would simply re-start a revert war, which is
>what
> > page protection is intended to forestall in the first place.
>
>Eh, more like worried about an admin protect war, ... even less desirable.

It is highly unlikely that Slim would re-protect in the event that some
other admin unprotected; she's never done it before, nor does it seem to be
in her nature.  In fact, I don't recall ever seeing an admin protect war;
block wars, but not protect wars.  It seems to me that my own hypothesis is
far more likely.

Jay.


from_name: Andrew Venier

body:
Gregory Maxwell wrote:

>On 6/15/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Perhaps we should alert Human Rights
>>Watch or Amnesty International.
>>
>>
>
>This sort of disrespectful language reflects poorly on the project.
>It's not acceptable to bait people with such jabs just so you can yell
>'look see' when the victim meets your incivility with more incivility.
>
>
I was kind of confused to see this post right after this one:

Gregory Maxwell wrote:

>Oh I know, we'll have a wikisockpuppet test:
>We will send ninjas to go kill the suspected puppeteer, and if the
>socks never edit again we'll know we were right!
>
>


body:
>From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com>
>
>On 6/15/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps we should alert Human Rights
> > Watch or Amnesty International.
>
>This sort of disrespectful language reflects poorly on the project.

No, hysterical rhetoric about pictures of turds generating huge numbers of
unecessary e-mails to a list already inundated with these kinds of e-mails
reflects poorly on the project, and that needs to stop.

>It's not acceptable to bait people with such jabs just so you can yell
>'look see' when the victim meets your incivility with more incivility.

That wasn't baiting, that was mocking; with any luck, it will stop futher
impassioned e-mails repeating the same thing ad nauseam.  If it doesn't
work, I'll have to resort to mass deletion of unread e-mails, as I have had
to do so many times in the past.

>If you really think the user in question is a troll and therefor not
>deserving of a basic level of respect then you need to take the only
>action that has ever been effective in stopping trolls: Ignore them.

If I didn't think they were a complete troll I would indeed have ignored
them.  Instead I tried to bring them to their senses, and to spare the
endless rounds of debate on a topic that's been thoroughly covered.

Jay.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jochen Magnus

subject: [Wikitech-l] New food for download.wikimedia.org

body:
Can we hope for new food on http://download.wikimedia.org/ ?
The current dumps are more than four weeks old.

I would prefere fresh dumps every week or at least in a 14-day-cycle.

Thanks

jo


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

body:
On 6/16/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
[only replying in part because I too am tired with the thread...]
> That wasn't baiting, that was mocking; with any luck, it will stop futher
> impassioned e-mails repeating the same thing ad nauseam.  If it doesn't
> work, I'll have to resort to mass deletion of unread e-mails, as I have had
> to do so many times in the past.

Okay so you're mocking someone and expecting them to say, "Oh, you
know .. you're right, I'm a complete moron and I'll change my ways",
or "now you've hurt my feelings and I'll go away". How often does that
work?

Human nature says we respond when we are attacked.  At best such
behavior fuels the fire, and at worst it encourages ill will and makes
you look like a jerk.

I don't believe that you can solve your email volume problem by
sending more emails. Try a threading mail reader.


body:
>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>
>>perhaps they feel that doing so would simply re-start a revert war, which
>>is what page protection is intended to forestall in the first place.
>>
>>Jay.
>
>SlimVirgin is not using page protection to forestall a revert war. She is
>using it to prevent me from editing. She is on record as saying she will
>lift the block if anyone asks her to, with one exception. Me.

I imagine she thought you might revert immediately once the protection was
lifted, which, of course, would re-start the war.  Is it possible you were
planning to do that?

Jay.


from_name: Jane Halliwell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Incivility and hypocrisy

body:
>>JAY JG wrote:
>>
>>>Perhaps we should alert Human Rights
>>>Watch or Amnesty International.

>Gregory Maxwell wrote:

>>This sort of disrespectful language reflects poorly on the project. It's
>>not acceptable to bait people with such jabs just so you can yell
>>'look see' when the victim meets your incivility with more incivility.

Someone implying hypocrisy wrote:

>I was kind of confused to see this post right after this one:
>
>Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>
>>Oh I know, we'll have a wikisockpuppet test:
>>We will send ninjas to go kill the suspected puppeteer, and if the
>>socks never edit again we'll know we were right!

But there is no hypocrisy.

Gregory Maxwell was using hyperbole to illuminate an unfairness in the
process. This is civil discourse.

Jay JG was ridiculing someone for daring to ask for help. Very different.

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee?
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


body:
On 6/16/05, Andrew Venier <avenier at venier.net> wrote:
> Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> >This sort of disrespectful language reflects poorly on the project.
> >It's not acceptable to bait people with such jabs just so you can yell
> >'look see' when the victim meets your incivility with more incivility.

> I was kind of confused to see this post right after this one:

> Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> >Oh I know, we'll have a wikisockpuppet test:
> >We will send ninjas to go kill the suspected puppeteer, and if the
> >socks never edit again we'll know we were right!

I have certainty made mistakes before, but I don't see where I am
criticising anyone with the above.   I was pointing giving an
exagerated example of how the only means we have to detect a good sock
with certanty are bound to cause more harm then they stop.

Had I been replying to someone complaining about sockpuppets, I could
see how my words would have been read as mocking.  But in this case,
who could I been mocking? ...

In any case the sockpuppet issue is actually a hard one, and I don't
think anyone with the courage to wade those waters is deserving of
mockery, ... even if I disagree with their conclusions or methods.


body:
>From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com>
>
>On 6/16/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
>[only replying in part because I too am tired with the thread...]
> > That wasn't baiting, that was mocking; with any luck, it will stop
>futher
> > impassioned e-mails repeating the same thing ad nauseam.  If it doesn't
> > work, I'll have to resort to mass deletion of unread e-mails, as I have
>had
> > to do so many times in the past.
>
>Okay so you're mocking someone and expecting them to say, "Oh, you
>know .. you're right, I'm a complete moron and I'll change my ways",
>or "now you've hurt my feelings and I'll go away". How often does that
>work?

No, I'm mocking someone in the hopes that they'll see how ridiculous they
are, and will shut up rather than exposing themselves to further
embarassment.

>Human nature says we respond when we are attacked.  At best such
>behavior fuels the fire, and at worst it encourages ill will and makes
>you look like a jerk.

"Jane" has been attacking for a long time now, my e-mail isn't going to make
that any worse.  And it is defending trolls, rather than defending
Wikipedia, that makes people look like jerks.

>I don't believe that you can solve your email volume problem by
>sending more emails.

I'm going to help solve it by not responding to your e-mails on this topic
either.

Jay.


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] probably one of the most remarkable Wikipedians to
	date...

body:
Hehe... that liquor on top of that shelf must be nice after spending a
few hours writing in longhand.

Mark

On 16/06/05, Guaka <guaka at no-log.org> wrote:
> ...can be seen here...
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Aliu_Amadu_Jallo_working_on_the_first_article_for_ff_wp-1.jpg
>
> ...while working on the manuscripts of
> http://ff.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndimaagu
>
> :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
Since I am assumed guilty of sockpuppetry until proven innocent, the burden
is on me to show evidence that I am not. I found some.

I reviewed user contribuitions, and I found that I and Niglet were both
active on June 3 between 06:00 and 10:00. I have mapped the times of my
contributions to Niglet's (bear with me, there is a point to this.) # = me,
* = niglet.

# 10:22, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Anus (→See also)
    * 10:03, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Talk:Feces (→Pictures)
    * 09:49, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Lawrence Einhorn (top)
    * 09:46, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Testicular cancer (→Treatment
...Einhorn)
    * 09:45, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Lawrence Einhorn
    * 09:45, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (New) Dr. Lawrence Einhorn (Dr.
Lawre....Einhorn) (top)
    * 09:40, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Lawrence Einhorn
    * 09:38, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Lawrence Einhorn
    * 09:31, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Lawrence Einhorn
    * 09:27, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (New) Image:Dr Lawrence Einhorn.jpg ...
    * 09:06, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Testicular cancer (→Treatment -
Chemotherapy details)
# 09:00, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Talk:Anus (→Shall there be no
photos?)
# 09:00, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Talk:Anus (→Shall there be no
photos?)
    * 08:46, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Talk:Human penis size (→2 or 2.5
Standard deviations?)
    * 08:39, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Human penis size (→See also -
Ron Jeremy)
    * 07:36, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Poop (Removed image)
# 07:09, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Hendrikje van Andel (→Quote)
# 07:08, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Hendrikje van Andel (→Quote)
# 07:08, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Hendrikje van Andel (→Quote)
# 06:53, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Squitten (top)
    * 06:39, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Poop (Reverted to include image)
# 06:39, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Anus (→Hygiene)
    * 06:29, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Feces (Added image)
    * 06:27, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Feces (→See also)
    * 06:22, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Black Eyed Peas (→See also)
# 06:04, 3 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Anus (→Structure)

If one is to believe that I and Niglet are the same, one MUST believe that
the record shows the following:

1) I am using two computers with different IPs simultaneously to edit (since
both userIDs contributed at exactly 06:39).

2) I designated one userID exclusively for anus, squitten, and hendrikje van
andel, while the other userID was used only for black eyed peas, feces,
poop, penis, testicular cancer, and a Dr. Einhorn.

3) I changed seats eight times in four hours and was able to keep straight
which computer was to be used for which articles.

4) Since this seat hopping and article segregation gave me no edit advantage
at the time, it must have been in order to establish an alibi for a
sockpuppetry scam which I was planning for ten days later.

Jane

_________________________________________________________________
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body:
I should add that monitoring recent changes on small and inactive
Wikipedias, I was initially very skeptical of your plans and figured
that they would be unfruitful.

Although it took a while since when you first posted the information
about possible payment for articles, you have shown me to be wrong on
this subject and for that I am very happy.

An issue I have, though, is: how many speakers of Bamana and Fulfulde
have access to the internet, to actually read these articles? How many
even have access to a computer? I know that the hope is that at some
point in the future, more people will be able to read these articles,
but shouldn't their very creation go hand-in-hand with wider
disemination of internet technologies in Mali, Nigeria, Burkina Faso,
Guinea...? I know there has been some activity to install the internet
at local radio stations, but what about the non-broadcasting public,
the plebes? If somebody could set up some sort of "free net-cafe" in
Bamako, with time-limits to prevent one person from using the computer
all the time, and offer classes in how to operate computers, I'm sure
that would help.

Mark

On 16/06/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hehe... that liquor on top of that shelf must be nice after spending a
> few hours writing in longhand.
>
> Mark
>
> On 16/06/05, Guaka <guaka at no-log.org> wrote:
> > ...can be seen here...
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Aliu_Amadu_Jallo_working_on_the_first_article_for_ff_wp-1.jpg
> >
> > ...while working on the manuscripts of
> > http://ff.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndimaagu
> >
> > :)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
>From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet
>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:26:11 -0400
>
>>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>>
>>Since I am assumed guilty of sockpuppetry until proven innocent, the
>>burden is on me to show evidence that I am not. I found some.
>>
>>I reviewed user contribuitions, and I found that I and Niglet were both
>>active on June 3 between 06:00 and 10:00. I have mapped the times of my
>>contributions to Niglet's (bear with me, there is a point to this.) # =
>>me, * = niglet.
>>etc.
>
>There are technical ways that can be done from the same computer at the
>same time.
>
>Move on.
>
>Jay.

Running 2 IPs on one computer doesn't make sense in light of the rest of the
evidence I presented. Did you read it? Your email is time stamped 2 minutes
after mine.

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


subject: [WikiEN-l] Incivility and hypocrisy

body:
>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>
>Jay JG was ridiculing someone for daring to ask for help. Very different.

No, I was ridiculing someone for using hysterical rhetoric to attack an
admin and repeatedly troll the list.  A couple of e-mails were enough; your
point has been made, by you, many times.  Move on.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>
>Since I am assumed guilty of sockpuppetry until proven innocent, the burden
>is on me to show evidence that I am not. I found some.
>
>I reviewed user contribuitions, and I found that I and Niglet were both
>active on June 3 between 06:00 and 10:00. I have mapped the times of my
>contributions to Niglet's (bear with me, there is a point to this.) # = me,
>* = niglet.
>etc.

There are technical ways that can be done from the same computer at the same
time.

Move on.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
On 6/16/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> There are technical ways that can be done from the same computer at the same
> time.
>
> Move on.

Sure.
So we tell the user it's their burden to prove they aren't a sock..
but it's clear that no such proof is possible.

Why didn't we save the user the time and just tell them they've been
branded for life?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Admins: Meet niglet. Niglet: Meet the admins.

body:
To the admins:

A few days ago, I posted a message for Niglet to contact me when he got
online and found himself banned as a sockpuppet. I should have read all my
email. He contacted me last night. I am forwarding his email below. It
doesn't say much, but I'm sure he'll have more to say.

Let me save JayJG the effort of compiling his next snide retort, by
conceding that I could have created Niglet's email address myself. This post
isn't for you, JayJG. It's for the admins willing to look at the evidence.

To Niglet:

Here is a link to the archives of the discussion, showing why you've been
banned. Scroll down, the discussion starts with the posting titled 'improper
sysop behavior'.

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-June/thread.html#24644

Once you've read enough to see what's happening, here is the mailing list
address. Expect a frosty response. Most have already decided that you are
me.

wikien-l at Wikipedia.org

Have fun guys.
Eyeon/Jane

>From: Niglet <trevorb1 at hotmail.com>
>To: Eyeon <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>Subject: My block
>Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:45:18 GMT
>
>Hey Eyeon.  What can we do about this problem?
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
>From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com>
>
>On 6/16/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > There are technical ways that can be done from the same computer at the
>same
> > time.
> >
> > Move on.
>
>Sure.
>So we tell the user it's their burden to prove they aren't a sock..
>but it's clear that no such proof is possible.

No-one has been told any such thing, precisely for that reason.

>Why didn't we save the user the time and just tell them they've been
>branded for life?

They haven't been "branded" at all, they've been accused of sockpuppetry by
one editor.  Is there no end to the hysterical rhetoric bandied about on
this list?  Get a grip.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>
>Running 2 IPs on one computer doesn't make sense in light of the rest of
>the evidence I presented. Did you read it? Your email is time stamped 2
>minutes after mine.

Accept that it can be done.  You can't prove someone is NOT a sockpuppet,
you can only prove that they ARE one.  You've been accused, you've denied
it.  Is there anything else that needs to be said on the topic?

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] A promise

body:
>>I don't believe that you can solve your email volume problem by
>>sending more emails.
>
>I'm going to help solve it by not responding to your e-mails on this topic
>either.
>
>Jay.

If you honor this promise, I will donate ten dollars to the Wikimedia
Foundation in your name.

Eyeon/Jane

_________________________________________________________________
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body:
Gregory Maxwell wrote:

>On 6/16/05, Andrew Venier <avenier at venier.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This sort of disrespectful language reflects poorly on the project.
>>>It's not acceptable to bait people with such jabs just so you can yell
>>>'look see' when the victim meets your incivility with more incivility.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>I was kind of confused to see this post right after this one:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Oh I know, we'll have a wikisockpuppet test:
>>>We will send ninjas to go kill the suspected puppeteer, and if the
>>>socks never edit again we'll know we were right!
>>>
>>>
>
>I have certainty made mistakes before, but I don't see where I am
>criticising anyone with the above.   I was pointing giving an
>exagerated example of how the only means we have to detect a good sock
>with certanty are bound to cause more harm then they stop.
>
>Had I been replying to someone complaining about sockpuppets, I could
>see how my words would have been read as mocking.  But in this case,
>who could I been mocking? ...
>
>In any case the sockpuppet issue is actually a hard one, and I don't
>think anyone with the courage to wade those waters is deserving of
>mockery, ... even if I disagree with their conclusions or methods.
>
As far as I am concerned, both statements (yours and JayJG's) were plain
and simple sarcasm.  You were apparently mocking anyone who cares to
address sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry.  And for future reference, the
disingenuous "Oh I know," is a big tip-off to sarcasm.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
>From: Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com>

> > There are technical ways that can be done from the same computer at the
>same
> > time.
>
>Just a sidenote: It may be worth pointing out that it doesn't even
>need two IP addresses - running two different browsers on the same
>machine, logged in under different accounts, ought to do it.

Right, well I didn't want to get into the details, so as not to encourage
people.  A year ago I was completely unaware of all of this, but
[[User:Alberuni]] taught me more than I need to know.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
On 6/16/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just a sidenote: It may be worth pointing out that it doesn't even
> need two IP addresses - running two different browsers on the same
> machine, logged in under different accounts, ought to do it.

Ah, but earlier David refused to preform or disclose the results of
performing an IP address verification because the user could still be
using socks and be editing from the same IP.


subject: [WikiEN-l] SlimVirgin not honoring SPUI's request

body:
>>>Have you seen the Talk page? I have as many entries in the discussion as
>>>any
>>>other editor, and public opinion was in favor of my position: 18 to 10 to
>>>2
>>>to 1.
>>>
>>>Eyeon/Jane

>>But you'll notice no other editor has asked for the page to be
>>unprotected.
>>
>>SlimVirgin

>I'll ask then. Please unprotect the page so I can restore the picture.
>
>SPUI

SlimVirgin has not honored her promise to lift the block when another editor
asked. About 18 hours have passed since SPUI's request. She received it via
email and a notice was placed on her talk page. She's been online and
contributing, so there is little question she got the message.

Eyeon

_________________________________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
>From: MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
>
>And if those IPs come from two different cities or completely
>different countries, that should discount any likely sockpuppetry.

Not necessarily; that was my point.

Jay.


from_name: Nathan Reed

body:
I'm completely disinterested, really, but I don't know why you can't
take a few days, cool off, and reapproach this Feces subject (if you
wish) later. Why not work on some other articles in the interim?

-N.

On 6/16/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>Have you seen the Talk page? I have as many entries in the discussion as
> >>>any
> >>>other editor, and public opinion was in favor of my position: 18 to 10 to
> >>>2
> >>>to 1.
> >>>
> >>>Eyeon/Jane
>
> >>But you'll notice no other editor has asked for the page to be
> >>unprotected.
> >>
> >>SlimVirgin
>
> >I'll ask then. Please unprotect the page so I can restore the picture.
> >
> >SPUI
>
> SlimVirgin has not honored her promise to lift the block when another editor
> asked. About 18 hours have passed since SPUI's request. She received it via
> email and a notice was placed on her talk page. She's been online and
> contributing, so there is little question she got the message.
>
> Eyeon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: slimvirgin at gmail.com

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: I'm unblocked,
	but SlimVirgin STILL WON'T LET ME EDIT!

body:
On 6/16/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh for heck's sake. I have unprotected it, but if the revert war restarts, I
> shall protect again.

With respect, Sam, I feel that for you to unlock the page was to give
into the trolling of this mailing list. I placed a note on the talk
page of the article only an hour ago asking whether people wanted the
page unlocked. So far, there was one for and one against, not counting
Eyeon, and it would have been nice to wait to see what the others
wanted. However, I won't interfere. Eyeon would be delighted if she
could cause us all to fall out.

Sarah


from_name: Carl Witty

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] probably one of the most remarkable Wikipedians
	to date...

body:
On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 01:27 +0200, guaka at no-log.org wrote:
> And now I actually want to write software for mobile phones, something like
> Tomeraider, but then Free. Not that it will run on many of the mobile phones right now
> in Mali, but it will in the near future. And I would like to have some kind of "viral"
> client thing.  Some Java client that can easily be copied to other phones in the
> neigbourhood, that can find and access a DICT server running on a phone that has
> enough memory. Maybe some of you know of another compressed hypertext format that does
> include images? I like DICT for its spead and simplicity, but it lacks images...

Have you looked at Plucker (http://plkr.org)?  As far as I can tell, the
only existing reader is for PalmOS; but it is an open, documented
format, and it does have hyperlinks and images.

(Is it actually possible to run a server on a cell phone?)

Carl Witty


body:
On 6/16/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> In case you hadn't realised, debate had begun (ha!) to centre on the page
> protection, rather than the issue at hand. Perhaps a bit of discussion might
> ensue now? If it doesn't, then protection can be reapplied. I just don't
> like debating the veracity of a page's protection, rather than the page
> itself.
>
No, Sam, the debate on the talk page about protection, and on this
list, was entirely Eyeon-centered. This is all Eyeon-controlled,
please see that. It's almost a case study in trolling.

Sarah


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
On 6/16/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> MacGyverMagic/Mgm (macgyvermagic at gmail.com) [050617 06:15]:
>
> > And if those IPs come from two different cities or completely
> > different countries, that should discount any likely sockpuppetry.
>
>
> Not in the least. Have a look at [[User:Lir]] some time.
>
>
I blocked someone recently who had posted (from memory) from Sweden,
Canada, and Germany on the same evening, all open proxies.

Sarah


body:
>Exactly so. You say you have huge support for unprotecting the page and
>restoring your image.
>
>SV's position is: find one other person to request this and she will do so.
>--
>Phil

At the bottom of talk:feces, there is now a LIST of people who want her to
unblock the article, and she's still refusing. Now, she says she wants a
'consensus'.

Jane/Eyeon

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] Trophees du libre prizes

body:
On 6/15/05, Nicolas Weeger <nicolas.weeger at laposte.net> wrote:
> (resurrecting the thread after some days)
> AFAIK, nothing was decided for those 2 prizes.

Who is in the position to say yes/no on this? In any case I think it's
better than nothing and I'm sure there are some uses for it.

> The hosting offer, I don't know more than what is written on the page
> (but again i can contact the company to have details). I'm pretty sure
> you can host MediaWiki on it, though :)

Having detailed info such as do we get root access? Shell access in
general? The ability to install applications? What services are
avalible (mysql? php? perl? .. ) would be nice, if you could contact
the company and relay that info back that would be great.

> DirectionPHP is a magazine on PHP, in french.

Count me out on that one;=)

> Nicolas Weeger
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Brief network uplink outage;
	nameserver for wikipedia.org

body:
Our uplink from Tampa via Level3 went down for about 10 minutes;
PowerMedium either got it back up or rerouted around it and everything
seems fine again now.

However it has reminded us that we need to add our backup nameserver in
Amsterdam (fuchsia.knams.wikimedia.org) to the record for wikipedia.org.
Currently it's unclear who if anyone has access to that account to add
it; I think Jason may but it may require restting the account password.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Taco Deposit

subject: [WikiEN-l] A promise

body:
An interesting, revealing statement.

TD

-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org]
On Behalf Of Jane Halliwell
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 3:52 PM
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] A promise

If you honor this promise, I will donate ten dollars to the Wikimedia
Foundation in your name.


body:
>With respect, Sam, I feel that for you to unlock the page was to give
>into the trolling of this mailing list. I placed a note on the talk
>page of the article only an hour ago asking whether people wanted the
>page unlocked. So far, there was one for and one against, not counting
>Eyeon...
>
>Sarah

One for, and one against, not counting Eyeon...

and not counting the unblock request in SPUI's email which you ignored...

and not counting the request to return the image by Mr. Tan in the header
directly above yours...

and not counting the four requests that are implicit in voting to return the
image after the page was locked...

and not counting the unblock request on your talk page... no wait, that one
was me, and I don't count.

and not counting the prior polling results, because they came before you
blocked the editing.

and not counting Niglet or Fecologist, because they're not allowed to
participate until they can prove they aren't me.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


body:
>From: Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com>
>
>Oh for heck's sake. I have unprotected it, but if the revert war restarts,
>I
>shall protect again.

And thank goodness that picture of a giant yellow turd has been restored to
the top of the article.  It only took 9 minutes from your unprotecting it.
Wikipedia was simply a laughingstock as an encyclopedia for every second
that graphic and extremely important picture of a human bowel movement was
missing.   In addition, the bright yellow colour really peps up what might
otherwise have been a dull read.

Jay.


from_name: Guaka

body:
...can be seen here...
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Aliu_Amadu_Jallo_working_on_the_first_article_for_ff_wp-1.jpg

...while working on the manuscripts of
http://ff.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndimaagu

:)


body:
>From: Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com>
>
>In case you hadn't realised, debate had begun (ha!) to centre on the page
>protection, rather than the issue at hand. Perhaps a bit of discussion
>might
>ensue now? If it doesn't, then protection can be reapplied. I just don't
>like debating the veracity of a page's protection, rather than the page
>itself.

You have a good point, but forgive me for not being able to hide the fact
that I think the whole debate is ridiculous, particularly when it's about
including that particular image.

Jay.


from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: probably one of the most remarkable Wikipedians
	to date...

body:
ah wisdom... good topic.

Thanks for the picture Guaka :-)

Ant

Guaka a ?crit:
> ...can be seen here...
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Aliu_Amadu_Jallo_working_on_the_first_article_for_ff_wp-1.jpg
>
> ...while working on the manuscripts of
> http://ff.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndimaagu
>
> :)


from_name: Andy Rabagliati

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: WCCE and Wikipedia etc.

body:
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Guaka wrote:

> > Not sure exactly where this mail comes from (/me perplex)...

(sorry, dates seemed tight)

> > but text-only encyclopedia, though safer, is a bit restricted :-(

Often people are looking for guarantees, especially around (proveable)
CD distributions.

Text guarantees no bad pictures (whatever they are).

> For text-only: check out wik2dict and dict. dict is a client/server
> hypertext protocol. wik2dict converts Mediawiki SQL dumps into the
> (gzipped) dict format.
>
> > I actually would prefer we set up a system with taggued pages than to
> > strip all images :-( but well... it takes less room
>
> I've actually been thinking about doing something like Tomeraider does.
> Maybe there is more interest in this. I think it's ugly that people are
> kind of forced to use a proprietary format to have Wikipedia on their
> PDAs.

I bought the memory stick for my PDA, (for wikipedia), and read the howto
page.  I could do it myself, but maybe it is worth the money to buy
Tomeraider's solution.

On another note, we ( http://www.slug.org.za/ ) installed Linux Thin
Client labs in ten schools today, which included a March snapshot of
en wikipedia (including pictures).

This was mostly possible because the 15 Gig required (pictures) could be
carried to the school on a hard drive (the server pre-installation).

These are for schools presently without Internet access.

Cheers,  Andy!


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
On 16/06/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:

> >I reviewed user contribuitions, and I found that I and Niglet were both
> >active on June 3 between 06:00 and 10:00. I have mapped the times of my
> >contributions to Niglet's (bear with me, there is a point to this.) # = me,
> >* = niglet.
> >etc.
>
> There are technical ways that can be done from the same computer at the same
> time.

Just a sidenote: It may be worth pointing out that it doesn't even
need two IP addresses - running two different browsers on the same
machine, logged in under different accounts, ought to do it.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Jason Richey

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Brief network uplink outage;
	nameserver for wikipedia.org

body:
I'll take care of it.

Jason

Brion Vibber wrote:

> Our uplink from Tampa via Level3 went down for about 10 minutes;
> PowerMedium either got it back up or rerouted around it and everything
> seems fine again now.
>
> However it has reminded us that we need to add our backup nameserver in
> Amsterdam (fuchsia.knams.wikimedia.org) to the record for wikipedia.org.
> Currently it's unclear who if anyone has access to that account to add
> it; I think Jason may but it may require restting the account password.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
OK, who changed the subject so this stuff can get past
my filters...

Are some people having trouble recognizing trolling?

Dan

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Bugzilla configuration

body:
I think our MediaZilla configuration could use some reviewing, I'm
able to change it myself since Tim made me one of the admins of it
recently (yay!), but I'd like to get some input first before I do any
major re-arrangements.

First of all I'd like to remove the patch keyword, instead we can use
advanced search to search for

* Attachment is patch => is equal to => 1
* Attachment is obsolete => is not equal to => 1

This would of course mean that we would have to start marking patches
as obsolete (and explaining why) that don't fit our requirements for
inclusion.

Second, I think our products/component setup is a bit of a mess, I
already split Images/Uploading into two components (Images and
Uploading) but alot more could be done, furthermore they're a bit
confusing, for example if there are problems with search on the
Wikimedia sites it should not go to MediaWiki => Search but MediaWiki
extensions => General/Unknown since Lucene search is an extension. I
don't really have any ideas about how to sort the whole thing out
though.


from_name: Nicolas Weeger

subject: [Wikitech-l] Trophees du libre prizes

body:
> Who is in the position to say yes/no on this? In any case I think it's
> better than nothing and I'm sure there are some uses for it.

I don't know, that's why i'm asking there :)

> Having detailed info such as do we get root access? Shell access in
> general? The ability to install applications? What services are
> avalible (mysql? php? perl? .. ) would be nice, if you could contact
> the company and relay that info back that would be great.

It obviously has MySQL/PHP.
I'm gonna ask for more info, though.

Nicolas Weeger


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
And if those IPs come from two different cities or completely
different countries, that should discount any likely sockpuppetry.

-Mgm

On 6/16/05, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/16/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just a sidenote: It may be worth pointing out that it doesn't even
> > need two IP addresses - running two different browsers on the same
> > machine, logged in under different accounts, ought to do it.
>
> Ah, but earlier David refused to preform or disclose the results of
> performing an IP address verification because the user could still be
> using socks and be editing from the same IP.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Sam Korn

body:
Oh for heck's sake. I have unprotected it, but if the revert war restarts, I
shall protect again.

Sam

On 6/16/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Exactly so. You say you have huge support for unprotecting the page and
> >restoring your image.
> >
> >SV's position is: find one other person to request this and she will do
> so.
> >--
> >Phil
>
> At the bottom of talk:feces, there is now a LIST of people who want her to
> unblock the article, and she's still refusing. Now, she says she wants a
> 'consensus'.
>
> Jane/Eyeon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Thomas Whaples

body:
Just ducking in here- I will comfirm that. I have an internship at IBM
this summer and I just installed a WebSphere server on my cell phone/PDA
device (Siemens SX66, to be exact) earlier today. You can also do
multimodal browsers (that means it does text-to-speech and voice
recognition for pages which have been appropriately marked up; see
http://www-306.ibm.com/software/pervasive/multimodal/ for details...) on
the device. At the same time. Uses the NetFront browser (and for debugging
on the PC, usually Opera).

But heck, I have a four-year-old computer with a 733mhz processor and 128
megs of RAM. The PDA has a 400Mhz processor (ARM, not PIII) and the same
amount of RAM. Why not? The power's there...

I'd say more, but there's a pesky little NDA that I signed.

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Guaka wrote:
>> (Is it actually possible to run a server on a cell phone?)
> If you can run Java and Python on it, why not run a server? :)


body:
In case you hadn't realised, debate had begun (ha!) to centre on the page
protection, rather than the issue at hand. Perhaps a bit of discussion might
ensue now? If it doesn't, then protection can be reapplied. I just don't
like debating the veracity of a page's protection, rather than the page
itself.

Sam

On 6/16/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >From: Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com>
> >
> >Oh for heck's sake. I have unprotected it, but if the revert war
> restarts,
> >I
> >shall protect again.
>
> And thank goodness that picture of a giant yellow turd has been restored
> to
> the top of the article. It only took 9 minutes from your unprotecting it.
> Wikipedia was simply a laughingstock as an encyclopedia for every second
> that graphic and extremely important picture of a human bowel movement was
> missing. In addition, the bright yellow colour really peps up what might
> otherwise have been a dull read.
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
It's ridiculous, yes. However, I could find no real reason for not keeping
the page protected, other than a fear of trolling. So far, there has been no
revert war. I hope that will still be the case when I wake up tomorrow
morning. If it isn't the case, then I'm sure the page will be reprotected.

Sam

On 6/16/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >From: Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com>
> >
> >In case you hadn't realised, debate had begun (ha!) to centre on the page
> >protection, rather than the issue at hand. Perhaps a bit of discussion
> >might
> >ensue now? If it doesn't, then protection can be reapplied. I just don't
> >like debating the veracity of a page's protection, rather than the page
> >itself.
>
> You have a good point, but forgive me for not being able to hide the fact
> that I think the whole debate is ridiculous, particularly when it's about
> including that particular image.
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: guaka at no-log.org

body:
> Hehe... that liquor on top of that shelf must be nice after spending a
> few hours writing in longhand.

Haha, well, fortunately Aliu isn't reading this list :) Being a religious man he's
probably not too fond of alcohol.
The picture was taken in the living room of the Geekcorps Mali house. Good that you
mention this fact. I'll add that to the Commons comments.


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
David Monniaux schreef:
> I think that all Wikipedia pages should contain somewhere (say, at the
> bottom) a link to a page where people could complain about the content
> of the articles. (I'm talking here of complaints about breach of
> privacy, copyright violation, libel etc.)

The Dutch Wikipedia has something like this for some years now. On the
bottom of the main page there is an "Contact"-link.

And in the side menu of all pages a "Help and contact"-link. It goes to
a short page whit some options like where to find the answers of most of
the questions, use the talk page, etc. and an link to an emailform to
send an question to Wikipedia.

The people doing the emails are all senior Wikipedians and are using an
disclaimer that the write in there own name and can not speak in the
name of Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation.

The feedback we get from the users is very useful. You get that way the
responds from visitors for who editing on a talk page is to strange to
do. If you do not have an traditional way of contact you lose good
information. Or even questions from the press or so.

The only problem is the some new users think the this contact point is
an place where the can appeal for internal Wikipedia-social stuff.

Walter


body:
> I should add that monitoring recent changes on small and inactive
> Wikipedias, I was initially very skeptical of your plans and figured
> that they would be unfruitful.

Well, initially they were :)

> Although it took a while since when you first posted the information
> about possible payment for articles, you have shown me to be wrong on
> this subject and for that I am very happy.

I was too optimistic about what would be the right incentive (200 CFA is too little).

> An issue I have, though, is: how many speakers of Bamana and Fulfulde
> have access to the internet, to actually read these articles? How many
> even have access to a computer?

1) Very very little.
2) A bit more.

Another question: how many speakers of Bamanan and Fulfulde are actually able to read?

Quite some more, but only very very optimistic estimations are higher than 30%. It's
more likely to be 10% or so.

> I know that the hope is that at some
> point in the future, more people will be able to read these articles,
> but shouldn't their very creation go hand-in-hand with wider
> disemination of internet technologies in Mali, Nigeria, Burkina Faso,
> Guinea...?

Definitely. I have some ideas to get this done. There are internet centers (CLICs)
struggling to get by. Geekcorps Mali just started to buy of a lot of their time, in
order to disseminate vouchers in communities. One idea is to give them to people who
write for Wikipedia. Good for the CLICs, who are happy to give out vouchers, and good
for the people, who can use the internet for free. It's also much easier to get done
than giving out money. And it will lead to a healthier CLIC - often ONGs have been too
eager to implement solutions that aren't viable in the long run.

> I know there has been some activity to install the internet
> at local radio stations, but what about the non-broadcasting public,
> the plebes?

There is a lot activity there as well. Often one internet connection is shared by
radio station, hospital, CLIC and municipality office.
BTW, most Geekcorps Mali partner radios aren't equipped with internet yet. Geekcorps
first wants to make sure that people at the radio actually use the computer for their
radio shows. However, I did add the wik2dicted French and Bambara Wikipedias to
Kunnafonix, the one-question-GNU/Linux-installCD. With fellow Geek Sebastian I also
added the creation of Debian packages to wik2dict, in order to make it easier to get
this stuff spreaded.

And now I actually want to write software for mobile phones, something like
Tomeraider, but then Free. Not that it will run on many of the mobile phones right now
in Mali, but it will in the near future. And I would like to have some kind of "viral"
client thing.  Some Java client that can easily be copied to other phones in the
neigbourhood, that can find and access a DICT server running on a phone that has
enough memory. Maybe some of you know of another compressed hypertext format that does
include images? I like DICT for its spead and simplicity, but it lacks images...

The possession rate of mobile phones in Mali is probably something like 1%. But many
mobile phones are often used by entire families, just like fixed lines in the rich
world. And an African family is somewhat larger than a western family...

But maybe this all sounds too optimistic. But it also seems interesting to get in
touch with African mobile phone operators to set up a service where people can access
information. The colonial language Wikipedias are already interesting enough to get
this done. Read out live even by flesh-and-blood persons when there's no ogg version
yet.

Another thing to take a look at is text-to-speech synths. It's a challenge to write an
interface to access Wikipedia, that can be used by people who are not able to read.

> If somebody could set up some sort of "free net-cafe" in
> Bamako, with time-limits to prevent one person from using the computer
> all the time, and offer classes in how to operate computers, I'm sure
> that would help.

My fellow Geek Frederic has set up a community centre with a bunch of computers and
Skolelinux. In one of the poorest areas of Bamako. And it's exactly people at this
centre who wrote (and are still writing) the largest part of the articles. To get
internet access there would cost them a fortune - 120 US$ a month IIRC. I will upload
some video of Frederic teaching them how to write HTML. I think the most interesting
is that this highly successful project was mostly funded by no less than... Frederic
himself.

What I haven't mentioned in this message yet: The existence of an encyclopedia in
their own language, written by themselves, will probably give people a boost of
confidence in their language. Currently there is a huge lack of information in
general, and information in African languages especially. Many people don't see the
reason to actually learn how to read and write in their mother tongue. They just learn
French (or English in poor Anglophone countries). Literacy rates would definitely be
higher if there were more texts in African languages. But then again, the price of
paper (or computer use) will always be too high for someone struggling to get her
daily food.


body:
> I bought the memory stick for my PDA, (for wikipedia), and read the howto
> page.  I could do it myself, but maybe it is worth the money to buy
> Tomeraider's solution.

Could it ever be worth the money when it's poor people who are paying? I
think Tomeraider is definitely not the way to go. It locks you in and
it's a crime against humanity to have African people (or countries) pay
software licenses - agricultural goods need to be exported to make up
for this.

...I loved to read Brazil's stance on this: the US is losing 1 billion
US$ on unlicensed software in Brazil, Brazil is losing 1 billion US$ on
paying software licenses to the US. So the Brazilians say, if we stop
using proprietary software both us and the US will save 1 billion US$.

It's about time to have a non-proprietary solution to carry Wikipedia on
a PDA.

> On another note, we ( http://www.slug.org.za/ ) installed Linux Thin
> Client labs in ten schools today, which included a March snapshot of
> en wikipedia (including pictures).
>
> This was mostly possible because the 15 Gig required (pictures) could be
> carried to the school on a hard drive (the server pre-installation).

That's nice. Is that 15 GB the entire Commons? Or just the pix from the
English Wikipdia?


body:
> Have you looked at Plucker (http://plkr.org)?  As far as I can tell, the
> only existing reader is for PalmOS; but it is an open, documented
> format, and it does have hyperlinks and images.

I had heard of it, but somehow forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me!

> (Is it actually possible to run a server on a cell phone?)

If you can run Java and Python on it, why not run a server? :)


list: foundation-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wiktionary-l] Article on LISA

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
>
> As a result of our exploring opportunities for Ultimate Wiktionary, I
> was pointed to LISA the Localisation Industry Standards Association. I
> downloaded some information and was asked afterwards for some
> information. This in turn led to the question if I was willing to
> write an article about Wikimedia and localisation. So I did. It can be
> found here: http://www.lisa.org/globalizationinsider/

The following is what he says there

>     Using this imperfect system of templates has taught us that 80% of
>     the lexicological content can be expressed using templates.
>
What evidence is there of this? Sure, we can get closer to that when
translations are viewed as mechanical acts and we can ignore all
subtleties of language. In reality such an attitude only goves a lot of pap.

>     The next step will be for us to combine all the
>     language-independent content in a database.
>
That's a very small part of the content.

>     Our challenge will be to translate the user interface in as many
>     languages as possible.
>
That much is already being done without Gerard's UW

>     This is the first hurdle to make the Ultimate Wiktionary
>     accessible in any language. The next step is to encourage people
>     with language knowledge to contribute to the Wiktionary by
>     providing descriptions and etymological information for various
>     terms.
>
This too is already being done in the English Wiktionary. That's what
lexicography is all about.

>     The Ultimate Wiktionary will become extremely relevant, based on
>     the special content that it will contain. For example, we plan to
>     include the GEMET thesaurus <http://www.eionet.eu.int/GEMET>, the
>     ecological resource of the European Community (EC).
>
Although I have no doubt that this is useful information there should be
no preference given to EC terminology. It needs to be made clear that
different terminology used in countries which share a language with some
member of the EC will be on an equal footing.

>     It will also be possible for users to add content in other
>     languages, making the original thesaurus even more accessible and
>     more valuable to more people. We hope to be able to cooperate with
>     organizations such as the EC in order to host other glossaries and
>     thesauri. As everyone is invited to contribute content, we
>     envision this content being translated into many more languages
>     and thus resulting in increased trade opportunities for the EC.
>
This looks like some kind of hidden agenda. Many of us have resisted any
appearance of being dominated by the thinking and ideas of the United
States. Any attempt to impose EC dominance should be resisted just as
strongly.

>     The current Wiktionaries will be converted to the Ultimate
>     Wiktionary.
>
You say this with far too much conviction. At other times you appear to
make the prediction that participants in the various projects will see
your UW as so great that they will melt into your arms. As a sceptic I
can accept that statement. It allows me to wait until there is something
real to comment about; it allows others with more technical experience
to amend your software to suit the needs of Wikimedia. I cannot and will
not accept your flat out statement that it "will be converted" any more
than I can suspend rationality long enough to accept Christ as my
personal saviour.

>     This means that people will have access to the Dutch Wiktionary
>     with many words in Papiamento, the Italian Wiktionary with many
>     Neapolitan words, and the Kurdish Wiktionary with words in many
>     different Kurdish dialects. The goal with the Ultimate Wiktionary
>     is to overcome the fractured nature of individual Wiktionaries. By
>     combining them into one central repository, people will be able to
>     access a much greater variety of content, thus enabling the
>     Ultimate Wiktionary to be greater than the sum of its separate
>     Wiktionary parts.
>
This is in sharp contrast to what you said in other parts of the article

>     Contrary to what the typical LISA Member has available, we do not
>     have an organizational structure that decides what to do next. We
>     do not have policies that determine what content is to be
>     available in all Wikipedias. We do not translate content as a rule.

or again

>     As the projects grow, we find that they have different values and
>     a different view of ?the Truth.? These are the issues where
>     culture comes into play.

What you praise here about the Wikipedias you would condemn in
Wiktionary. The difference in values and cultures is just as strong in
Wiktionary as it is in Wikipedia. It needs to be respected just as much.

Ec

PS: It is not my usual habit to crosspost my comments, an I seriously
considered posting this on only one of the lists, but since Gerard has
chosen to put his POV on three lists it seemed appropriate that at least
the initial rebuttal should be similarly distributed.


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wiktionary-l] Article on LISA


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Article on LISA


from_name: Kate Turner

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Bugzilla configuration

body:
David Gerard wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason (avarab at gmail.com) [050617 07:25]:
>> if there are problems with search on the
>> Wikimedia sites it should not go to MediaWiki => Search but MediaWiki
>> extensions => General/Unknown since Lucene search is an extension. I
>> don't really have any ideas about how to sort the whole thing out
>> though.

> If you put it there, then search bugs will never get reported to the right
> component

that doesn't really matter, bugs can be moved to the correct component after
being filed.

since lucene search is quite large (the mediawiki extension itself is only a
small part) i think a new "lucene" compoment would be best...

>
> - d.

kate.


body:
Jason Richey wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> I'll take care of it.

jason,

mark's current plan is _not_ to use fuchsia an an NS server, but rather
another of the knams servers - but we can't change the configuration until
the software is in place to handle it, so this will need to wait a few
days, unless we can get access to the DNS configuration ourselves...

> Jason

kate.

> Brion Vibber wrote:

>> However it has reminded us that we need to add our backup nameserver in
>> Amsterdam (fuchsia.knams.wikimedia.org) to the record for wikipedia.org.

>> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm (macgyvermagic at gmail.com) [050617 06:15]:

> And if those IPs come from two different cities or completely
> different countries, that should discount any likely sockpuppetry.

Not in the least. Have a look at [[User:Lir]] some time.

- d.


body:
Jane Halliwell (hundredpurses at hotmail.com) [050617 07:18]:

> SlimVirgin has not honored her promise to lift the block when another
> editor asked. About 18 hours have passed since SPUI's request. She received
> it via email and a notice was placed on her talk page. She's been online
> and contributing, so there is little question she got the message.

Of course, it doesn't rely on just one person. There are hundreds of admins
who could unprotect the page. None have done so. I wonder why that is.

- d.


from_name: S.M.Sabri S.M.Ismail

subject: [WikiEN-l] A promise ... Jay to Gregory

body:
From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com
>>>>I don't believe that you can solve your email volume problem by
>>>sending more emails.
>>I'm going to help solve it by not responding to your e-mails on this topic
>>either.
>>Jay.
> If you honor this promise, I will donate ten dollars to the Wikimedia
> Foundation in your name.
> Eyeon/Jane

Jane's cut&paste makes it appear that Jay was promising Jane, whereas Jay was
talking to Gregory. I do not wonder whether Jane did this purposely or not. :-/

From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 17 June, 2005 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] I'm unblocked, but SlimVirgin STILL WON'T LET ME EDIT!
> From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com>
>> I don't believe that you can solve your email volume problem by
>> sending more emails.
> I'm going to help solve it by not responding to your e-mails on this topic
> either.
> Jay.

regards, sabre23t =^.^=

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.1 - Release Date: 13.06.05


subject: [Wikitech-l] Bugzilla configuration

body:
?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason (avarab at gmail.com) [050617 07:25]:

> Second, I think our products/component setup is a bit of a mess, I
> already split Images/Uploading into two components (Images and
> Uploading) but alot more could be done, furthermore they're a bit
> confusing, for example if there are problems with search on the
> Wikimedia sites it should not go to MediaWiki => Search but MediaWiki
> extensions => General/Unknown since Lucene search is an extension. I
> don't really have any ideas about how to sort the whole thing out
> though.

If you put it there, then search bugs will never get reported to the right
component - when you do a search, there's no indication that you're using
an extension, not MediaWiki core itself. So when you refactor components,
be sure to remember how reporters will see things, not just the developers
at the other end.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Alternate theory on Niglet

body:
Well, it's easy enough to check if an IP is an open proxy. Those get
blocked by the busload.I was talking mostly about fixed IPs or fixed
ranges which can be attached to specific locations several countries
away from each other. Say Canada, Germany and Australia without the
use of open proxies.

--Mgm

On 6/17/05, slimvirgin at gmail.com <slimvirgin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/16/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> > MacGyverMagic/Mgm (macgyvermagic at gmail.com) [050617 06:15]:
> >
> > > And if those IPs come from two different cities or completely
> > > different countries, that should discount any likely sockpuppetry.
> >
> >
> > Not in the least. Have a look at [[User:Lir]] some time.
> >
> >
> I blocked someone recently who had posted (from memory) from Sweden,
> Canada, and Germany on the same evening, all open proxies.
>
> Sarah
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: katimawan .

subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Request for Kapampangan Wikipedia

body:
Hi, Mark,
I'm glad to inform the group that we have satisfied the minimum number of people required to start the Kapampangan Wikipedia.  I am therefore resubmitting my request for a Wikipedia in the Kapampangan language.  Thank you.

Edwin

P.S. Thank you, too, to our cabalens (fellow countrymen) for their support.

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:10:45 -0700
From: Mark Williamson
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for Kapampangan Wikipedia
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <849f98ed05061118102855347e at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Edwin,,

Just wondering but do you speak Kapampangan yourself?

And would you be willing to write much of the content on the
Kapampangan Wikipedia yourself?

Is there anybody else col-laborating with you?

Mark

---------------------------------

Correo Yahoo!
Comprueba qu? es nuevo, aqu?
http://correo.yahoo.es


from_name: Philippe Roth

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikimedia search configuration

body:
Dear All,

We just made a fresh install of our wiki base 1.2.4 to mediawiki 1.4.5
Everything seems to be OK except that we have problems with search...
We have several articles about "plotters".
But if we make a search for "plotter", there is no article found. Same
with "plot*", nothing.
The articles are found only when we make a search for "plotters".

How can we configure our installation to make search like
"plot*","plotter" and so on successful?

Many thanks in advance for light.

Best regards,
Philippe Roth


from_name: Muke Tever

body:
Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The following is what he says there
>>
>>>     Using this imperfect system of templates has taught us that 80% of
>>>     the lexicological content can be expressed using templates.
>>>
>> What evidence is there of this? Sure, we can get closer to that when
>> translations are viewed as mechanical acts and we can ignore all
>> subtleties of language. In reality such an attitude only goves a lot
>> of pap.
>
> The evidence can be found in the practice of the it: or nl: and other
> wiktionaries. Please explain  "goves a lot of pap".

it:, nl:, and the other wiktionaries are 99% stubs.  Certainly it's
conceivable that the language-independent content *now* is 80%.  But
in the future, when there is actually enough content to make wiktionary
worth using, both in real definitions and auxiliary information such
as etymological analysis (not just "{{xx}} X, from {{yy}} Y, ..."),
discussion of pronunciation and grammatical usage in everyday vs. formal
or standardized use, citations and translations of same into the user's
native language, a real and useful thesaurus of each language (I mean
more than a simple list of synonyms), etc., then the numbers will surely
be quite different.

This is why I don't see anything particularly "ultimate" about UW. If
all you really want to build is a "translationary," I don't doubt UW
will be reasonable and sufficient.  Outside of that, from what I understand,
it looks like the vast amounts of real content will be provincialized,
stuck in the language of the user who added it. It will be just like
Wikipedia in that way, where it is little or no effort to carry over an
infobox template, say, from en.wikipedia to la.wikipedia, but the real
meat is not the standardized template but the actual article about what
is being discussed... and UW only seems to concern itself with the
equivalent of the infobox.

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TOC numbering bug

references:
<d81fft$3nm$1@sea.gmane.org>	<d82l2t$82m$1@sea.gmane.org>	<d83m69$ilf$1@sea.gmane.org>	<b8b9a5110506070959401ad7b5@mail.gmail.com>	<d84kh0$smj$1@sea.gmane.org>	<9f02ca4c05060909194cdb2d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d8uri1$qru$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Rowan Collins wrote:
>
>> In general, nothing but the very introductory lead-in of an article
>> should be headerless, assuming headers are going to be used at all.
>
> In the wiki text, yes. In the HTML output, even the introductory
> lead-in has a header -- the article title! ;-) That is also why we
> don't want to use =Header= (i.e. <h1>) even though the software allows
> it: The article title is already formatted as <h1>, and any section
> belonging to the article should be nested inside it.

While I can sympathise with this approach there remains a practical
problem on heavily trafficked maintenance related articles where adding
new sections will automatically add <h2> headings.  These need to be
grouped for ease of use, and <h1> is the only thing available for this.
Could a <h1.5> be defined as a compromise.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TOC numbering bug

references:
<d81fft$3nm$1@sea.gmane.org>	<d82l2t$82m$1@sea.gmane.org><20050606234653.GA5719@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>	<1118169317.6025.4.camel@penguin.piclab.com>	<d86f8e$ime$1@sea.gmane.org>	<42A737DB.2070807@telus.net>
	<d8ur9c$p37$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>> This could also attach an implicit level zero heading to the
>> introductory material so that it could be edited by itself.
>
> It already can. We used to have an [edit] link for the section above
> the first heading. Although that link no longer exists, and so you
> can't get to it other than by manipulating a URL, editing "&section=0"
> still works.

Thanks for the info.  Nevertheless it seems like the kind of tool that
technophobes will find awkward.

Ec


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wiktionary-l] Article on
	LISA

body:
Oooh... snap...

Ray got served!!!

Mark

On 17/06/05, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
> > Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >
> >> Hoi,
> >>
> >> As a result of our exploring opportunities for Ultimate Wiktionary, I
> >> was pointed to LISA the Localisation Industry Standards Association.
> >> I downloaded some information and was asked afterwards for some
> >> information. This in turn led to the question if I was willing to
> >> write an article about Wikimedia and localisation. So I did. It can
> >> be found here: http://www.lisa.org/globalizationinsider/
> >
> >
> > The following is what he says there
> >
> >>     Using this imperfect system of templates has taught us that 80% of
> >>     the lexicological content can be expressed using templates.
> >>
> > What evidence is there of this? Sure, we can get closer to that when
> > translations are viewed as mechanical acts and we can ignore all
> > subtleties of language. In reality such an attitude only goves a lot
> > of pap.
>
> The evidence can be found in the practice of the it: or nl: and other
> wiktionaries. Please explain  "goves a lot of pap".
>
> >
> >>     The next step will be for us to combine all the
> >>     language-independent content in a database.
> >>
> > That's a very small part of the content.
>
> Given that the language-independent content is over 80%, I wonder what a
> big part is..
>
> >
> >>     Our challenge will be to translate the user interface in as many
> >>     languages as possible.
> >>
> > That much is already being done without Gerard's UW
>
> There will be an User Interface part to the Ultimate Wiktionary, that
> will have to be localised.
>
> >
> >>     This is the first hurdle to make the Ultimate Wiktionary
> >>     accessible in any language. The next step is to encourage people
> >>     with language knowledge to contribute to the Wiktionary by
> >>     providing descriptions and etymological information for various
> >>     terms.
> >>
> > This too is already being done in the English Wiktionary. That's what
> > lexicography is all about.
>
> At issue is the scope that you have. If you think the English Wiktionary
> everything, you forget about all the other Wiktionaries. If work done on
> the English Wiktionary is only to benefit the English Wiktionary your
> scope is somewhat limited.
>
> >
> >>     The Ultimate Wiktionary will become extremely relevant, based on
> >>     the special content that it will contain. For example, we plan to
> >>     include the GEMET thesaurus <http://www.eionet.eu.int/GEMET>, the
> >>     ecological resource of the European Community (EC).
> >>
> > Although I have no doubt that this is useful information there should
> > be no preference given to EC terminology. It needs to be made clear
> > that different terminology used in countries which share a language
> > with some member of the EC will be on an equal footing.
>
> We have already introduced a glossary with medical information in the
> Dutch Wiktionary, the GEMET database contains data for many languages
> including American English. The definitions are by reputable
> institutions including US universities. So please know what you talk
> about. The GEMET data is given to us to be published under the GNU-FDL.
> So what is your problem? If we can obtain other worthwhile resources and
> combine them in UW we will because it enriches the UW as a resource.
>
> >
> >>     It will also be possible for users to add content in other
> >>     languages, making the original thesaurus even more accessible and
> >>     more valuable to more people. We hope to be able to cooperate with
> >>     organizations such as the EC in order to host other glossaries and
> >>     thesauri. As everyone is invited to contribute content, we
> >>     envision this content being translated into many more languages
> >>     and thus resulting in increased trade opportunities for the EC.
> >>
> > This looks like some kind of hidden agenda. Many of us have resisted
> > any appearance of being dominated by the thinking and ideas of the
> > United States. Any attempt to impose EC dominance should be resisted
> > just as strongly.
>
> I will be asking the Dutch government if we can host a glossary of words
> and their meaning in the various Dutch governmental organisations. When
> we want to inform what a word means and you equate informing what a word
> means for an organisation with letting this organisation dominate you,
> you disallow making this information public. From my point of view you
> are barking up the wrong tree, with a dictionary a glossary you inform
> and if the EC is more Open than the US, good for them..
>
> The aim of Wiktionary is all words of all languages, would it not be
> great if we can have organisations look at their vocabulary .. even if
> it means that it makes plain how far off they are from what is commonly
> meant by this vocabulary they are ??
>
> >
> >>     The current Wiktionaries will be converted to the Ultimate
> >>     Wiktionary.
> >>
> > You say this with far too much conviction. At other times you appear
> > to make the prediction that participants in the various projects will
> > see your UW as so great that they will melt into your arms. As a
> > sceptic I can accept that statement. It allows me to wait until there
> > is something real to comment about; it allows others with more
> > technical experience to amend your software to suit the needs of
> > Wikimedia. I cannot and will not accept your flat out statement that
> > it "will be converted" any more than I can suspend rationality long
> > enough to accept Christ as my personal saviour.
>
> As a sceptic, it does not allow you to bide your time and wait for the
> results. You do what you must. In the mean time I will work to make the
> UW a success.
>
> >
> >>     This means that people will have access to the Dutch Wiktionary
> >>     with many words in Papiamento, the Italian Wiktionary with many
> >>     Neapolitan words, and the Kurdish Wiktionary with words in many
> >>     different Kurdish dialects. The goal with the Ultimate Wiktionary
> >>     is to overcome the fractured nature of individual Wiktionaries. By
> >>     combining them into one central repository, people will be able to
> >>     access a much greater variety of content, thus enabling the
> >>     Ultimate Wiktionary to be greater than the sum of its separate
> >>     Wiktionary parts.
> >>
> > This is in sharp contrast to what you said in other parts of the article
>
> I do not understand what you mean; but let me try to explain. We want an
> user interface for every lanuguage, selectable in the user preferences.
> When content has been imported into the UW, the content included in the
> Dutch Wiktionary will make Papiamento, English, Italian etc content
> available. With more resources imported into the UW, the infomation will
> be enriched. I do not rubbish the accomplishments of the other
> wiktionaries, I want to make them available to all people of all
> languages. When an English word is known because of theire being an
> entry created in association with a word in Italian, it will be
> available for everyone never mind what user interface is used.
>
> >
> >>     Contrary to what the typical LISA Member has available, we do not
> >>     have an organizational structure that decides what to do next. We
> >>     do not have policies that determine what content is to be
> >>     available in all Wikipedias. We do not translate content as a rule.
> >
> >
> > or again
> >
> >>     As the projects grow, we find that they have different values and
> >>     a different view of "the Truth." These are the issues where
> >>     culture comes into play.
> >
> >
> > What you praise here about the Wikipedias you would condemn in
> > Wiktionary. The difference in values and cultures is just as strong in
> > Wiktionary as it is in Wikipedia. It needs to be respected just as much.
> >
> I do not see the point that you are making. A dictionary is
> deterministic; it informs of the meaning(s) of a word and other
> information that can be found about a word. We will have them all. An
> encyclopedia tries to explain what things are and how they relate. There
> is in my mind a huge difference in the amount of culture you will find
> in an encyclopedia and in a dictionary.
>
> > Ec
> >
> > PS: It is not my usual habit to crosspost my comments, an I seriously
> > considered posting this on only one of the lists, but since Gerard has
> > chosen to put his POV on three lists it seemed appropriate that at
> > least the initial rebuttal should be similarly distributed.
> >
> I have published in a periodical. The posting on the three lists was to
> inform you about this. These postings are as much as anything to prevent
> the feeling some people have that things are done in secret. They are
> not. Many people knew I was going to publish on the LISA periodical and
> hey, today you can read the result :) ..
>
> The creation of this article was a lengthy affair. I have discussed
> issues with many wikimedians. If Ray is of the opinion that it is my
> POV, he is correct I published it and I am proud of it. I hope and
> expect that in time Ultimate Wiktionary will prove a success. If people
> are interested in how I envision certain things, they can ask me and we
> can discuss things. I am eager to know where we need to improve on the
> ideas that we have. But please use arguments in stead of sceptical
> comments based on .. what ??
>
> Thanks,
>    GerardM
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

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QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikitech-l] template question

body:
Hi, I need to crate a template, but really have a problem for the how to
... it might be easy, but I just can't find out how to do it.

For now I have every article with this headline:

<small>
[[article/de|Deutsch]] -
[[article/en|English]] -
[[article/it|Italiano]]
</small>

each page is linked to each other page with the same headline - I mean:
article/de has this headline as well as article/en and article/it

what is equal to all is the first part of the article up to the slash

creating a template with {{PAGENAME}} does not work as the pagename is
not unique.

is there a way how I can tell a template that it only must consider the
pagename up to the "/" sign?

the reason I need this is that I plan to add further languages and just
imagine you have 5000 pages sooner or later that all have this headline.

can someone help me with this?

thank you!!!

Ciao, Sabine

___________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger: chiamate gratuite in tutto il mondo
http://it.beta.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] Article on LISA

body:
Hoi,

As a result of our exploring opportunities for Ultimate Wiktionary, I
was pointed to LISA the Localisation Industry Standards Association. I
downloaded some information and was asked afterwards for some
information. This in turn led to the question if I was willing to write
an article about Wikimedia and localisation. So I did. It can be found
here: http://www.lisa.org/globalizationinsider/

Thanks,
   GerardM


subject: [Foundation-l] Article on LISA


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article on LISA


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Article on LISA


body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Oooh... snap...
>
>Ray got served!!!
>
>Mark
>
Hell of a lot of good that does if I'm not attending the dinner.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] template question

body:
Replying to my own question - I just found it out:

Create a template like:
Template:header

[[{{{name}}}/de|Deutsch]] -
[[{{{name}}}/en|English]] -
[[{{{name}}}/it|Italiano]] -
[[{{{name}}}/nl|Nederlands]]

then on the page you insert:

{{header|name=articlename}}

Ciao, Sabine

Sabine Cretella wrote:

> Hi, I need to crate a template, but really have a problem for the how
> to ... it might be easy, but I just can't find out how to do it.
>
> For now I have every article with this headline:
>
>
> [[article/de|Deutsch]] -
> [[article/en|English]] -
> [[article/it|Italiano]]
>
>
> each page is linked to each other page with the same headline - I mean:
> article/de has this headline as well as article/en and article/it
>
> what is equal to all is the first part of the article up to the slash
>
> creating a template with {{PAGENAME}} does not work as the pagename is
> not unique.
>
> is there a way how I can tell a template that it only must consider
> the pagename up to the "/" sign?
>

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


subject: [Wikitech-l] Trophees du libre prizes

body:
> Having detailed info such as do we get root access? Shell
access in
> general? The ability to install applications? What services are
> avalible (mysql? php? perl? .. ) would be nice, if you could
contact
> the company and relay that info back that would be great.

The only info company replied was :
http://www.nexenservices.com/offre.php?cPath=2 (english
version at
http://www.nexenservices.com/offre.php?set_lang=en&cPath=2 ).
Since it's a virtual dedicated server, i think we get root access.
There is MySQL & Apache & PHP, that's for sure.

Nicolas

Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ;
3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn)


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiDiff and Wikipedia-Animate

body:
Those of you who use Firefox can try out two new Wikipedia/MediaWiki toys:

http://phiffer.org/projects/wikipedia-animate/
http://gleepglop.com/journal/articles/2005/06/16/wikidiff

Both are methods to animate the history of an article. Both require
Greasemonkey, a Firefox extension to add JavaScript to any webpage, to
be installed:

http://greasemonkey.mozdev.org/

Both are still fairly experimental, but still nifty. The first one loads
on every article view, so only enable it when you need it. The second
one can be loaded from the history page, and I found it to be generally
more reliable.

If this isn't working at all, make sure your little Greasemonkey icon is
activated.

This is the result of a little contest by Andy Baio:
http://www.waxy.org/archive/2005/06/14/automati.shtml

(Oh, and perhaps someone could add this to en:Wikipedia:Tools and
similar pages.)

Best,

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch: Russian, Japanese Wikinews

body:
As per the previously noted agreement, I hereby announce the intent to
set up the Russian and Japanese editions of Wikinews. Both meet the
formal requirements and have translated the key pages. Should there be
no specific objections, I will do so in 7 days or later.

Best,

Erik


body:
>
> PS: It is not my usual habit to crosspost my comments, an I seriously
> considered posting this on only one of the lists, but since Gerard has
> chosen to put his POV on three lists it seemed appropriate that at
> least the initial rebuttal should be similarly distributed.

I don't have time to answer that now due to too much work - most of what
you said is your POV - is fear about the new - sorry, but it seems like
that.

Gerard is not the only one working on UW.

There's no "we want only EU terminology" - it is a start and all are
invited to contribute even the UNESCO and the US-Government if they have
valuable glossaries.

More in a second mail when I finished my job.

Ciao, Sabine

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Article on LISA


from_name: Jeremy Dunck

subject: [Wikitech-l] Abusive history requests coming your way...

body:
http://www.waxy.org/archive/2005/06/14/automati.shtml

Andy Baio made a lazy web request for easier wikipedia diff usage.
People are answering.

The two entries so far are doing HTTP requests on all history for the
given page.

These are implemented in Greasemonkey user scripts, an extension I'm
somewhat responsible for; thus my feeling of duty to inform this is
going on.  Expect more.

It's a crazily great thing from the user's perspective...


from_name: Andrew Venier

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: bugzilla votes

body:
Timwi wrote:

>
> Is there a page on MediaZilla that lists bugs sorted by the number of
> votes? If that was made more prominent, I'm pretty sure that
> highly-voted-for bugs will receive more attention.

You can go to Advanced Search, and enter "1" (or greater) in  "Only bugs
with at least: [   ]  votes" text box towards the lower left of the
page.  Then the search results will have a sortable vote column.


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject:
[Wikitech-l] _Special page_ link on _what links here_ pages goes
	nowhere

body:
I was just thinking: what is the point of making the "Speicla page" tab on a
"WhatLinksHere" page a link if it goes nowhere?

Actually, it appears to go to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/ but that seems to
do little useful: either a blank page or an error.

Either it should go somewhere (maybe Special Pages?) or it shoud not be a
link.
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On 17/06/05, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just thinking: what is the point of making the "Speicla page" tab on a
> "WhatLinksHere" page a link if it goes nowhere?

Did you post this coincidentally to Reinhardt filing bug 2434
(http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2434)? If so, it's
rather spooky.

Anyway, my investigations reveal that this residual link is actually
broken because it links to "", which is interpretted differently by
different browsers.

I've thought before that actually Special pages would benefit from
having an attached discussion like anything else, but as is they only
have one "action"/"view": themselves. Linking to Special:Specialpages
would be inconsistent; not linking at all might be awkward with the
template-ness of the skin; linking explicitly back to the same page
would be a reasonable compromise.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TOC numbering bug

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
> This could also attach an implicit level zero heading to the
> introductory material so that it could be edited by itself.

It already can. We used to have an [edit] link for the section above the
first heading. Although that link no longer exists, and so you can't get
to it other than by manipulating a URL, editing "&section=0" still works.


body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>>
>> As a result of our exploring opportunities for Ultimate Wiktionary, I
>> was pointed to LISA the Localisation Industry Standards Association.
>> I downloaded some information and was asked afterwards for some
>> information. This in turn led to the question if I was willing to
>> write an article about Wikimedia and localisation. So I did. It can
>> be found here: http://www.lisa.org/globalizationinsider/
>
>
> The following is what he says there
>
>>     Using this imperfect system of templates has taught us that 80% of
>>     the lexicological content can be expressed using templates.
>>
> What evidence is there of this? Sure, we can get closer to that when
> translations are viewed as mechanical acts and we can ignore all
> subtleties of language. In reality such an attitude only goves a lot
> of pap.

The evidence can be found in the practice of the it: or nl: and other
wiktionaries. Please explain  "goves a lot of pap".

>
>>     The next step will be for us to combine all the
>>     language-independent content in a database.
>>
> That's a very small part of the content.

Given that the language-independent content is over 80%, I wonder what a
big part is..

>
>>     Our challenge will be to translate the user interface in as many
>>     languages as possible.
>>
> That much is already being done without Gerard's UW

There will be an User Interface part to the Ultimate Wiktionary, that
will have to be localised.

>
>>     This is the first hurdle to make the Ultimate Wiktionary
>>     accessible in any language. The next step is to encourage people
>>     with language knowledge to contribute to the Wiktionary by
>>     providing descriptions and etymological information for various
>>     terms.
>>
> This too is already being done in the English Wiktionary. That's what
> lexicography is all about.

At issue is the scope that you have. If you think the English Wiktionary
everything, you forget about all the other Wiktionaries. If work done on
the English Wiktionary is only to benefit the English Wiktionary your
scope is somewhat limited.

>
>>     The Ultimate Wiktionary will become extremely relevant, based on
>>     the special content that it will contain. For example, we plan to
>>     include the GEMET thesaurus <http://www.eionet.eu.int/GEMET>, the
>>     ecological resource of the European Community (EC).
>>
> Although I have no doubt that this is useful information there should
> be no preference given to EC terminology. It needs to be made clear
> that different terminology used in countries which share a language
> with some member of the EC will be on an equal footing.

We have already introduced a glossary with medical information in the
Dutch Wiktionary, the GEMET database contains data for many languages
including American English. The definitions are by reputable
institutions including US universities. So please know what you talk
about. The GEMET data is given to us to be published under the GNU-FDL.
So what is your problem? If we can obtain other worthwhile resources and
combine them in UW we will because it enriches the UW as a resource.

>
>>     It will also be possible for users to add content in other
>>     languages, making the original thesaurus even more accessible and
>>     more valuable to more people. We hope to be able to cooperate with
>>     organizations such as the EC in order to host other glossaries and
>>     thesauri. As everyone is invited to contribute content, we
>>     envision this content being translated into many more languages
>>     and thus resulting in increased trade opportunities for the EC.
>>
> This looks like some kind of hidden agenda. Many of us have resisted
> any appearance of being dominated by the thinking and ideas of the
> United States. Any attempt to impose EC dominance should be resisted
> just as strongly.

I will be asking the Dutch government if we can host a glossary of words
and their meaning in the various Dutch governmental organisations. When
we want to inform what a word means and you equate informing what a word
means for an organisation with letting this organisation dominate you,
you disallow making this information public. From my point of view you
are barking up the wrong tree, with a dictionary a glossary you inform
and if the EC is more Open than the US, good for them..

The aim of Wiktionary is all words of all languages, would it not be
great if we can have organisations look at their vocabulary .. even if
it means that it makes plain how far off they are from what is commonly
meant by this vocabulary they are ??

>
>>     The current Wiktionaries will be converted to the Ultimate
>>     Wiktionary.
>>
> You say this with far too much conviction. At other times you appear
> to make the prediction that participants in the various projects will
> see your UW as so great that they will melt into your arms. As a
> sceptic I can accept that statement. It allows me to wait until there
> is something real to comment about; it allows others with more
> technical experience to amend your software to suit the needs of
> Wikimedia. I cannot and will not accept your flat out statement that
> it "will be converted" any more than I can suspend rationality long
> enough to accept Christ as my personal saviour.

As a sceptic, it does not allow you to bide your time and wait for the
results. You do what you must. In the mean time I will work to make the
UW a success.

>
>>     This means that people will have access to the Dutch Wiktionary
>>     with many words in Papiamento, the Italian Wiktionary with many
>>     Neapolitan words, and the Kurdish Wiktionary with words in many
>>     different Kurdish dialects. The goal with the Ultimate Wiktionary
>>     is to overcome the fractured nature of individual Wiktionaries. By
>>     combining them into one central repository, people will be able to
>>     access a much greater variety of content, thus enabling the
>>     Ultimate Wiktionary to be greater than the sum of its separate
>>     Wiktionary parts.
>>
> This is in sharp contrast to what you said in other parts of the article

I do not understand what you mean; but let me try to explain. We want an
user interface for every lanuguage, selectable in the user preferences.
When content has been imported into the UW, the content included in the
Dutch Wiktionary will make Papiamento, English, Italian etc content
available. With more resources imported into the UW, the infomation will
be enriched. I do not rubbish the accomplishments of the other
wiktionaries, I want to make them available to all people of all
languages. When an English word is known because of theire being an
entry created in association with a word in Italian, it will be
available for everyone never mind what user interface is used.

>
>>     Contrary to what the typical LISA Member has available, we do not
>>     have an organizational structure that decides what to do next. We
>>     do not have policies that determine what content is to be
>>     available in all Wikipedias. We do not translate content as a rule.
>
>
> or again
>
>>     As the projects grow, we find that they have different values and
>>     a different view of ?the Truth.? These are the issues where
>>     culture comes into play.
>
>
> What you praise here about the Wikipedias you would condemn in
> Wiktionary. The difference in values and cultures is just as strong in
> Wiktionary as it is in Wikipedia. It needs to be respected just as much.
>
I do not see the point that you are making. A dictionary is
deterministic; it informs of the meaning(s) of a word and other
information that can be found about a word. We will have them all. An
encyclopedia tries to explain what things are and how they relate. There
is in my mind a huge difference in the amount of culture you will find
in an encyclopedia and in a dictionary.

> Ec
>
> PS: It is not my usual habit to crosspost my comments, an I seriously
> considered posting this on only one of the lists, but since Gerard has
> chosen to put his POV on three lists it seemed appropriate that at
> least the initial rebuttal should be similarly distributed.
>
I have published in a periodical. The posting on the three lists was to
inform you about this. These postings are as much as anything to prevent
the feeling some people have that things are done in secret. They are
not. Many people knew I was going to publish on the LISA periodical and
hey, today you can read the result :) ..

The creation of this article was a lengthy affair. I have discussed
issues with many wikimedians. If Ray is of the opinion that it is my
POV, he is correct I published it and I am proud of it. I hope and
expect that in time Ultimate Wiktionary will prove a success. If people
are interested in how I envision certain things, they can ask me and we
can discuss things. I am eager to know where we need to improve on the
ideas that we have. But please use arguments in stead of sceptical
comments based on .. what ??

Thanks,
   GerardM


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wiktionary-l] Article on LISA


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TOC numbering bug

references:
<d81fft$3nm$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<d82l2t$82m$1@sea.gmane.org>	<d83m69$ilf$1@sea.gmane.org>	<b8b9a5110506070959401ad7b5@mail.gmail.com>	<d84kh0$smj$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c05060909194cdb2d5f@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:
>
> In general, nothing but the very introductory lead-in of an article
> should be headerless, assuming headers are going to be used at all.

In the wiki text, yes. In the HTML output, even the introductory lead-in
has a header -- the article title! ;-) That is also why we don't want to
use =Header= (i.e. <h1>) even though the software allows it: The article
title is already formatted as <h1>, and any section belonging to the
article should be nested inside it.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Errors on the downtime message pages

references:
<d845ti$3kp$1@sea.gmane.org>	<42A5C14C.8010109@yahoo.it>	<1b2348920506070851550cb7f0@mail.gmail.com>	<8806029.ryyi7DnoOv@rose.local>
	<d87aaa$lc6$1@sea.gmane.org> <1998498.pOYLVcZVgO@rose.local>

body:
Kate Turner wrote:
> Timwi wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:
>
>>Correct answer would have been: "I'll set up a page on meta for this."
>
> it's a wiki.  don't whine about it, do it yourself.

How do I do that without any access to the actual downtime message?