from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikicommons

body:
On Tuesday 17 August 2004 23:38, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Stan Shebs wrote:
> > Brion Vibber wrote:
> >> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>> Please let us start the Wikicommons and add functionality when we
> >>> think of some, when we program some.
> >>
> >> Erik M?ller proposed specific things for WikiCommons. When he gets
> >> some code written, I'm sure we'll be happy to put it online.
> >
> > Do we really have to be blocked on coding? The situation with
> > image duplication is really bad now, and it will only get worse
> > as people want to illustrate articles in the non-English WPs.
>
> Since there is not yet code to support pulling images in an organized
> fashion from a separate site (WikiCommons), I don't see how putting up
> another wiki would change anything right now -- everything would have to
> be uploaded again on all the other wikis to be used.
>
> Could you elaborate on how this would work?

I know you won't like this, but, for example:

			if( $ns == $wikicommons ){
				$oldUploadPath=$GLOBALS['wgUploadPath'];
				$wgUploadPath="http://www.wikicommons.org/upload"
				$ns=$image;
			}
                        if( $ns == $image ) {
                                $s .= $prefix . $sk->makeImageLinkObj( $nt,
$text ) . $trail;
                                $wgLinkCache->addImageLinkObj( $nt );
                                return $s;
                        }
			if( $oldUploadPath ){
				$GLOBALS['wgUploadPath']=$oldUploadPath;
				unset($oldUploadPath);
			}

Of course, something cleaner needs to be done, but this is a beginning.


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikicommons

body:
FYI, you might be interested in a similar new Open Source Media
project started by Marc Canter and J.D. Lasica, which can be found
here: http://www.newmediamusings.com/blog/2004/08/open_media_the_.html

Their emphasis is primarily video, but pictures and audio are also a
large part.  We might want to open up channels to them just to stay in
touch with their ideas.  They have a  wiki on SocialText they are
using for planning/coordination. It would be good to have some
Wikimedia/pedia folks in touch with it.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 02:12:10 +0200, Ewen Caroline <caroline at www.web.lu> wrote:
> And it will save time looking for pictures where you can never be sure about
> the license etc. I'm sure, lots of us (myself included) have holiday pics
> from various places on their computer, so let's share them.
>
> Caroline, LB.
>
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:27:58 -0400, James R. Johnson wrote
>
>
> > A wikicommons would be very nice to have, a place to store all the pictures
> > and sound files we find, and then link to them in the
> > wikipedia/wiktionary, etc. - that'd save space in the wikis for more
> > articles, etc.
> >
> > James
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> > [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:25 PM
> > To: wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org; wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikicommons
> >
> > Hoi,
> > There has been much talk about starting a repository for all kinds
> > of media. Pictures etc  that have a license compatible with the
> > ideas of wikimedia. The idea lives to have one repository for all
> > pictures so that we need to store it only once. The idea lives to
> > make Wikicommons ??  the location where the userid's for the
> > wikimedia projects may live.
> >
> > Anyway, Wikicommons does not exist and we have all these harddrives
> > full of our digital snapshots.that may eventually end up on
> > wikisomewhere. Wouldn't it be nice to start Wikicommons and have a
> > place to dump these pictures now for people to find?
> >
> > Yes, we cannot use Wikicommons pictures in the diverse projects yet,
> > but now we do not have the pictures either. What is stopping us from
> > creating this space and get something going ??
> >
> > Personally I have nice pictures from within the Vatican, a scull of
> > a Homo erectus etc etc. I have been to many musea and I have
> > pictures a plenty from Berlin, Prague, Budapest, Brussels,
> > Oostvaardersplassen. I am sure that I am not the only one with
> > interesting pictures that are usefull to others.
> >
> > Please let us start the Wikicommons and add functionality when we
> > think of some, when we program some.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >     GerardM
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
> --
> Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Andrew Lih
andrew.lih at gmail.com


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Milestone

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

> Oh, and there was a major drift in the article number count. I'm not sure if
> that bug has been fixed yet. Hm - I just checked and the number on the Main
> Page is now fairly close to the number on the WikiStats page. But then, they
> could both be wrong....
>
> -- mav

Erik Zachte fixed that bug and the recent stat runs are correct.


from_name: Allan Patrick Medeiros Lucas

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Hi,

(I?m not proficient in english language)

> Wikipedia new language request.
> There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian
> Portuguese as their main language.
> Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain
> pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list
> (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available)

This question had been discussed over and over again on pt.wikipedia.org and
every time we have concluded that the best way is to stay together.

And, yes, I?m from Brazil and my first language is brazilian portuguese.

Patrick
(patrick @ pt.wikip?dia)
(patrick-br @ meta.wikipedia)
Caruaru, PE (Brazil)

_________________________________________________________________________________
Quer mais velocidade?
S? com o acesso Aditivado iG, a velocidade que voc? quer na hora que voc? precisa.
Clique aqui: http://www.acessoaditivado.ig.com.br


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Milestone

body:
How much does Osama bin Laden weigh?

Christiaan


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikicommons

body:
That would display the image, but how to add the image description in
every language that uses the image? Here's my proposal:
* Everything that gets uploaded to wikicommons gets an English
description (most common language on the net) and extensive information
about source, license etc.
* On the wikipedia upload pages, you get "use wikicommons image"
* That generates a "normal" image, but without uploading data,
referencing to the wikicommons file instead.
That way, you'll have all the infrastructure of an image (description,
"articles that use this image" etc.), without the wast of duplication.

Magnus

Nikola Smolenski wrote:

>On Tuesday 17 August 2004 23:38, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>
>>Stan Shebs wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Brion Vibber wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Please let us start the Wikicommons and add functionality when we
>>>>>think of some, when we program some.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Erik M?ller proposed specific things for WikiCommons. When he gets
>>>>some code written, I'm sure we'll be happy to put it online.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Do we really have to be blocked on coding? The situation with
>>>image duplication is really bad now, and it will only get worse
>>>as people want to illustrate articles in the non-English WPs.
>>>
>>>
>>Since there is not yet code to support pulling images in an organized
>>fashion from a separate site (WikiCommons), I don't see how putting up
>>another wiki would change anything right now -- everything would have to
>>be uploaded again on all the other wikis to be used.
>>
>>Could you elaborate on how this would work?
>>
>>
>
>I know you won't like this, but, for example:
>
>			if( $ns == $wikicommons ){
>				$oldUploadPath=$GLOBALS['wgUploadPath'];
>				$wgUploadPath="http://www.wikicommons.org/upload"
>				$ns=$image;
>			}
>                        if( $ns == $image ) {
>                                $s .= $prefix . $sk->makeImageLinkObj( $nt,
>$text ) . $trail;
>                                $wgLinkCache->addImageLinkObj( $nt );
>                                return $s;
>                        }
>			if( $oldUploadPath ){
>				$GLOBALS['wgUploadPath']=$oldUploadPath;
>				unset($oldUploadPath);
>			}
>
>Of course, something cleaner needs to be done, but this is a beginning.
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: GWB weight

references:
<cft4m7$2ji$1@sea.gmane.org> <cfu1e4$5uu$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<51dd1af804081801477b4962cd@mail.gmail.com>

body:
?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

> But why not just use "wikipedia printed out would weigh about as much
> as an average person" or "86kg", when you make comparisons you're
> trying to illustrate a point, and am i the only one that thought
> "eeh.... yeah?" instead of "oh cool" upon hearing that, it makes you
> ponder about GWB not WP.
>

Humour doesn't travel over the internet well sometimes. Particular bad
humour, it appears :).


subject: [Wikitech-l] XML: Part 2

body:
I have checked in a silghtly modified version of this as ParserXML.php
into CVS HEAD.

Magnus

Jan Hidders wrote:

>On Tuesday 17 August 2004 21:38, Jan Hidders wrote:
>
>
>>Magnus Manske wrote:
>>
>>
>>>As we are now progressing towards XML generation, what to do with it?
>>>I altered a little code from the PHP page about the XML parser to
>>>arrange the XML in a treelike structure. Don't know where to put it,
>>>so I'll just dump it below ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>Using the eval function makes it a bit hard to understand and I suspect
>>it isn't very efficient. How about the following: [...]
>>
>>
>
>Here is a better version that doesn't require an array that stores all
>elements in the tree:
>
><?
>
>
>//  the base class for an element
>class element {
>  var $name = "";
>  var $attrs = array();
>  var $children = array();
>
>  function myPrint() {
>    echo "<UL>";
>    echo "<LI> <B> Name: </B> $this->name";
>    // print attributes
>    echo "<LI> <B> Attributes: </B>";
>    foreach ($this->attrs as $name => $value) {
>      echo "$name => $value; " ;
>    }
>    // print children
>    foreach ($this->children as $child) {
>       if ( is_string($child) ) {
>         echo "<LI> $child";
>       } else {
>         $child->myPrint();
>       }
>    }
>    echo "</UL>";
>  }
>
>}
>
>$ancStack = array();    // the stack with ancestral elements
>
>// Three global functions needed for parsing, sorry guys
>function wgXMLstartElement($parser, $name, $attrs) {
>   global $ancStack, $rootElem;
>
>   $newElem = new element;
>   $newElem->name = $name;
>   $newElem->attrs = $attrs;
>   array_push($ancStack, $newElem);
>   // add to parent if parent exists
>   $nrAncs = count($ancStack)-1;
>   if ( $nrAncs > 0 ) {
>     array_push($ancStack[$nrAncs-1]->children, &$ancStack[$nrAncs]);
>   } else {
>     // make extra copy of root element and alias it with the original
>     array_push($ancStack, &$ancStack[0]);
>   }
>}
>
>function wgXMLendElement($parser, $name) {
>  global $ancStack, $rootElem;
>
>  // pop element of stack
>  array_pop($ancStack);
>}
>
>function wgXMLcharacterData($parser, $data) {
>  global $ancStack, $rootElem;
>
>  // add to parent if parent exists
>  if ( $ancStack ) {
>    array_push($ancStack[count($ancStack)-1]->children, $data);
>  }
>}
>
>
># Here's the class that generates a nice tree
>class xml2php {
>
>   function &scanFile( $filename ) {
>       global $ancStack;
>
>       $xml_parser = xml_parser_create();
>       xml_set_element_handler($xml_parser, "wgXMLstartElement",
>"wgXMLendElement");
>       xml_set_character_data_handler($xml_parser,
>"wgXMLcharacterData");
>       if (!($fp = fopen($filename, "r"))) {
>          die("could not open XML input");
>       }
>       while ($data = fread($fp, 4096)) {
>          if (!xml_parse($xml_parser, $data, feof($fp))) {
>              die(sprintf("XML error: %s at line %d",
>                  xml_error_string(xml_get_error_code($xml_parser)),
>                  xml_get_current_line_number($xml_parser)));
>          }
>       }
>       xml_parser_free($xml_parser);
>
>       // return the remaining root element we copied in the beginning
>       return $ancStack[0];
>   }
>
>}
>
>$w = new xml2php;
>$filename = 'sample.xml';
>$result = $w->scanFile( $filename );
>$result->myPrint();
>
>return 0;
>
>?>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [WikiEN-l] GWB weight

body:
But why not just use "wikipedia printed out would weigh about as much
as an average person" or "86kg", when you make comparisons you're
trying to illustrate a point, and am i the only one that thought
"eeh.... yeah?" instead of "oh cool" upon hearing that, it makes you
ponder about GWB not WP.

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:44:48 +0100, Pete/Pcb21
<pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com> wrote:
> According to the www:
> "At his August 2001 physical, Bush was 6 feet 0 inches tall, and weighed
> 189.75 lbs"
>
> 189.75 lbs ~ 86kg
>
> The Second Edition of the OED weighs 62.6kg and consists of 59 million
> words on 21,730 pages. (http://www.oed.com/about/facts.html).
>
> So assuming the printed WP had the same size volume and type of binding
> as the OED, it follows after a little calculation that WP would weigh
> the same as GWB if about 3350 words were put on each page. This is
> possible if you use a size 8 font and big (OED sized) pages.
>
> The heaviest President was William Taft (1909-1913), at 322lbs. If we
> are allowed this weight, we could probably use size 10.
>
> Pete
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Michael Becker

subject: [WikiEN-l] Image:TrangBang.jpg and other copyright confusion

body: It seems that even though decisions have already been made by Jimbo on the mailing list regarding free use of images, quite a lot of arguing is still going on in wiki-space. Image:TrangBang.jpg was just deleted due to votes on vfd. It was then reuploaded, and there seems to be a conflict between the uploader and deleter. Also, there seems to be an argument on Wikipedia talk:Fair use. I think that since Jimbo has given his (i.e. the foundations) official stance on fair use, this should be reflected by a policy of some sort in wiki-space. This would help diffuse any further disputes on the fair use issue. Otherwise, I don't see these disputes ever ending.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikicommons: start an action plan

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 08/18/04 12:07, Andre Engels wrote:
>> I have asked for this for several months now, but it seems that those
>> who actually can do something prefer to use extreme delay policy here.
>> I propose to hijack one of the currently inactive Wikimedia Wikis, and
>> just start this. I'm tired of waiting.
>
> Hmm. So what is the technical delay?

It's a specific proposal by Erik M?ller (Eloquence):
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-May/000050.html
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Commons

AFAIK none of this stuff has actually been done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Server problems?

body:
I had to give up trying to access Wikipedia last night because I was getting zero response and eventually received an error message saying that there were server problems.  I'm getting the same message this morning.  What's going on?  Any idea on when it will be fixed?

RickK

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Allan Patrick Medeiros Lucas wrote:
> This question had been discussed over and over again on
> pt.wikipedia.org and every time we have concluded that the best way
> is to stay together.  And, yes, I?m from Brazil and my first
> language is brazilian portuguese.

That would be my hope, so I'm glad to hear that.  But in every case,
this should be for the native speakers of variants of languages to
decide, and it *should* be decided from a perspective of love and
harmony and rationality (mutual intelligibility being key) as opposed
to for nationalistic reasons.  It *can* *still* be the case that
somewhat close languages should split if the overall impact is
positive.

--Jimbo


list: foundation-l

from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Paypal in French

body:
Hi all,

Paypal existe now in French.
I think that will help donations from French speaking countries.

http://www.01net.com/article/249486.html
http://www.paypal.fr

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Paypal in French


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Linus mentions us in Businessweek online

body:
Businessweek interviewed Linus Torvalds, and Linus mentioned
Wikipedia as an example of the open-source method applied outside of
software:

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2004/tc20040818_1593.htm

Unfortunately, the WP ref comes after he describes how mutual trust
makes Linux work, so of course the business readers' heads will have
twisted around several times, fallen off, and rolled into the corner.

:-)

Stan


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> I don't think that a vote would help.  It will only show one group to be
> dominant, and may just divide that community even more.  Accepting the
> other side's way of expressing itself is worth a lot more.

I think it's the opposite, but maybe I misunderstand you.

If a handful of Americans got fed up with those crazy British
spellings and insane measurements that no one has ever heard of, like
"kilometre" and such nonsense, and asked us to create an American
English wikipedia, we would quite properly refuse, right?  What we
would say is "Accepting the other side's way of expressing itself is
worth a lot more".

And that's what we do on en, i.e. "try to relax" about it.  There are
some conventions and standards, but it really (in my opinion) boils
down to that: let's just relax and respect and accept that other
people use words a little bit differently.

It would be unwise, I think, for people to declare that _only_
Brazilian Portuguese is acceptable, or that _only_ European Portuguese
is acceptable.  The best solution, I think, is for people to try to
relax about it and get along.  This will usually involve avoiding
local expressions as much as necessary, and trying to be
understanding.

--Jimbo

p.s. Just in case anyone asks, I'm just teasing *myself*, my own
provincialism, when I make those jokes about crazy British spellings
and the metric system.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Please?

body:
Am I really the only one who can't get Wikipedia to work?  I'm still getting server error messages.

RickK

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Double database entries

body:
Christian Semrau wrote:
> Hello wikipedians all around the world!
>
> I am Christian aka SirJective from the german WP, and want to promote some
> knowledge about a database flaw that can be handled by sysops.
>
> Did you ever ask yourselves why the "What links here" page of some articles
> lists articles that don't link there?
> Or found articles listed on Special:Shortpages that are not short (at least not
> as short as listed on that page)?
> Or articles listed on Special:Lonelypages that are not orphaned?

I've been working on these kinds of problems recently. The cause usually
seems to be a SELECT performed without a FOR UPDATE option.
Unfortunately using more locking will cause more deadlocks and lock wait
timeout errors, but hopefully with appropriate use of retry loops and
other measures, these problems can be kept to a minimum.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikitech-l] [Fwd: Re: Double database entries]

body:
Christian Semrau wrote:

> Hello wikipedians all around the world!
>
> I am Christian aka SirJective from the german WP, and want to promote some
> knowledge about a database flaw that can be handled by sysops.
>
> Did you ever ask yourselves why the "What links here" page of some articles
> lists articles that don't link there?
> Or found articles listed on Special:Shortpages that are not short (at least not
> as short as listed on that page)?
> Or articles listed on Special:Lonelypages that are not orphaned?

I've been working on these kinds of problems recently. The cause usually
seems to be a SELECT performed without a FOR UPDATE option.
Unfortunately using more locking will cause more deadlocks and lock wait
timeout errors, but hopefully with appropriate use of retry loops and
other measures, these problems can be kept to a minimum.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikicommons

body:
Even better would be to have proper metadata so that each image could
have a description in multiple languages.

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:06:01 +0200, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> That would display the image, but how to add the image description in
> every language that uses the image? Here's my proposal:
> * Everything that gets uploaded to wikicommons gets an English
> description (most common language on the net) and extensive information
> about source, license etc.
> * On the wikipedia upload pages, you get "use wikicommons image"
> * That generates a "normal" image, but without uploading data,
> referencing to the wikicommons file instead.
> That way, you'll have all the infrastructure of an image (description,
> "articles that use this image" etc.), without the wast of duplication.
>
> Magnus
>
>
>
>
> Nikola Smolenski wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday 17 August 2004 23:38, Brion Vibber wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Stan Shebs wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Brion Vibber wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Please let us start the Wikicommons and add functionality when we
> >>>>>think of some, when we program some.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Erik M?ller proposed specific things for WikiCommons. When he gets
> >>>>some code written, I'm sure we'll be happy to put it online.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Do we really have to be blocked on coding? The situation with
> >>>image duplication is really bad now, and it will only get worse
> >>>as people want to illustrate articles in the non-English WPs.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Since there is not yet code to support pulling images in an organized
> >>fashion from a separate site (WikiCommons), I don't see how putting up
> >>another wiki would change anything right now -- everything would have to
> >>be uploaded again on all the other wikis to be used.
> >>
> >>Could you elaborate on how this would work?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I know you won't like this, but, for example:
> >
> >                       if( $ns == $wikicommons ){
> >                               $oldUploadPath=$GLOBALS['wgUploadPath'];
> >                               $wgUploadPath="http://www.wikicommons.org/upload"
> >                               $ns=$image;
> >                       }
> >                        if( $ns == $image ) {
> >                                $s .= $prefix . $sk->makeImageLinkObj( $nt,
> >$text ) . $trail;
> >                                $wgLinkCache->addImageLinkObj( $nt );
> >                                return $s;
> >                        }
> >                       if( $oldUploadPath ){
> >                               $GLOBALS['wgUploadPath']=$oldUploadPath;
> >                               unset($oldUploadPath);
> >                       }
> >
> >Of course, something cleaner needs to be done, but this is a beginning.
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikitech-l mailing list
> >Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikicommons

body:
I have asked for this for several months now, but it seems that those who
actually can do something prefer to use extreme delay policy here. I propose
to hijack one of the currently inactive Wikimedia Wikis, and just start
this. I'm tired of waiting.

Andre Engels

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:24:56 +0200 Gerard Meijssen <gerardm at myrealbox.com>
wrote:
>Hoi,
>There has been much talk about starting a repository for all kinds of
>media. Pictures etc  that have a license compatible with the ideas of
>wikimedia. The idea lives to have one repository for all pictures so that
>we need to store it only once.
>The idea lives to make Wikicommons ??  the location where the userid's for
>the wikimedia projects may live.
>
>Anyway, Wikicommons does not exist and we have all these harddrives full of
>our digital snapshots.that may eventually end up on wikisomewhere. Wouldn't
>it be nice to start Wikicommons and have a place to dump these pictures now
>for people to find?
>
>Yes, we cannot use Wikicommons pictures in the diverse projects yet, but
>now we do not have the pictures either. What is stopping us from creating
>this space and get something going ??
>
>Personally I have nice pictures from within the Vatican, a scull of a Homo
>erectus etc etc. I have been to many musea and I have pictures a plenty
>from Berlin, Prague, Budapest, Brussels, Oostvaardersplassen. I am sure
>that I am not the only one with interesting pictures that are usefull to
>others.
>
>Please let us start the Wikicommons and add functionality when we think of
>some, when we program some.
>
>Thanks,
>    GerardM
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: leercontainer-wikimedia at yahoo.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] personal threats again

body:
>Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
>> One other question would be "is the personal attacks policy limited
>to
>> the English Wikipedia?"
>
>No, it is global.  Personal attacks are not helpful in the creation of

>a
>high quality encyclopedia and a healthy, caring community.
>
<snip>
>
>--Jimbo

Hi,
are there any other policies that you consider global?

--Dittaeva


from_name: Jan Hidders

subject: [Wikitech-l] XML: Part 2

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

> I have checked in a silghtly modified version of this as ParserXML.php
> into CVS HEAD.

Excellent. Thank you.

-- Jan Hidders


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 08/18/04 12:07, Andre Engels wrote:

> I have asked for this for several months now, but it seems that those
> who actually can do something prefer to use extreme delay policy here. I
> propose to hijack one of the currently inactive Wikimedia Wikis, and
> just start this. I'm tired of waiting.

Hmm. So what is the technical delay?

Can we get together an action plan needed to implement it?

Things needed:

* place to put it
* syntax to easily include images and media files

I assume it can use the current MediaWiki software.

Anything I've missed

- d.


from_name: Austin Hair

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
> That would be my hope, so I'm glad to hear that.  But in every case,
> this should be for the native speakers of variants of languages to
> decide, and it *should* be decided from a perspective of love and
> harmony and rationality (mutual intelligibility being key) as opposed
> to for nationalistic reasons.  It *can* *still* be the case that
> somewhat close languages should split if the overall impact is
> positive.

As for that, some time ago I noticed that we have Bosnian, Serbian,
Croatian, and Serbo-Croatian wikis.  I'm sure this topic must have been
debated somewhere, but nobody I've asked has been able to illuminate me
as to the rationale for this decision.  Can anyone here?

> --Jimbo

--
Austin D. Hair <austin at austinhair.org>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Callidus
http://www.austinhair.org/
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from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
>
>> On 08/18/04 12:07, Andre Engels wrote:
>>
>>> I have asked for this for several months now, but it seems that
>>> those who actually can do something prefer to use extreme delay
>>> policy here. I propose to hijack one of the currently inactive
>>> Wikimedia Wikis, and just start this. I'm tired of waiting.
>>
>>
>> Hmm. So what is the technical delay?
>
>
> It's a specific proposal by Erik M?ller (Eloquence):
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-May/000050.html
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Commons
>
> AFAIK none of this stuff has actually been done.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
Reading the meta article, you will find several people saying let's
start. What is the problem with starting a database for content and add
technology as and when it arrives?

What are we waiting for but more importantly what is holding us back ?
Who can give the goahead for the creation of the new WikiCommons.

There is content, let's do the open source thing and publish, publish often.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Bryan Ford

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Stable revisions,
	page protection alternatives (was Re: Wiki branches, voting)

body:
On Monday 16 August 2004 21:33, (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) wrote:
> Voting can be a reasonable way to resolve issues for which absolutely
> no other solution can be found.  But I very much doubt that
> introducing a system where people vote on article content is a good
> idea.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  You make a good argument, and I agree
that consensus is always the ideal we'd like to strive for and maximally
encourage in the incentive structures - but like Andre Engels, I'm skeptical
that consensus always works.  In practice, voting is already used informally
on Talk pages all over the place on Wikipedia to resolve contentious issues
in which consensus breaks down; voting is even somewhat systematized already
via the whole "Votes for deletion" mechanism.

I have no desire to replace "normal-case" consensus-based Wiki collaboration
with "tyranny of the majority"; my intent is only to come up with a better
alternative to the existing, essentially authoritarian fallback mechanism of
sysop-controlled page protection for those "extreme cases" when normal
consensus fails.

> Let's imagine that 90% of the people editing a particular page are of
> one opinion, and 10% are of a different opinion.  So long as the
> participants are all reasonable and friendly, this poses no obstacle
> to the production of an article that is satisfactory to all -- this is
> the normal wiki way of producing quality encyclopedic content.
>
> The majority has no choice but to respect the viewpoint of the
> minority, because the minority can always just _edit the article_.

Is this really the case?  Suppose I'm the only one who votes to "Keep" a
particular page on VfD, and nine other users vote "Delete".  Should the page
be deleted?  If so, my rights as one of those 10% minorities are being
trampled!  If someone does delete it, am I then justified in just re-creating
it?  That's what your statement above seems to suggest - yet I suspect that
if I did that repeatedly, sooner or later either the page would be protected,
or I'd be kicked off for "incivil behavior" by an annoyed sysop.  Is this not
the case?

My point is that in the system even as it stands, voting is already used
frequently as a fall-back path when consensus breaks down - and when that
happens, the minority is _not_ really free to disregard the results of the
vote if the majority decides against them, because if they do so persistently
then the essentially authoritarian power structure defined by the
sysadmin->bureaucrat->sysop "chain of command" will sooner or later crack
down on them.  So instead of tyranny of the majority, we have tyranny of the
sysops. :)

I have every desire to preserve existing incentives toward consensus-based
collaboration; I think that goal is already substantially reflected in my
proposal, and if deficiencies remain in that regard then I want to fix them.
But as far as I can tell no one has actually read the proposal yet (somewhat
understandable given its length).

Even supposing that voting is never appropriate on "main-line" working Wiki
content, what about "stable" revisions or branches?  Someone just pointed me
to the slashdot interview you did a while ago (nice, BTW!) - particularly
question 4, where you mentioned a "1.0 stable" release.  In such a snapshot,
presumably there will have to be _some_ way in which a "definitive" version
of each Wikipedia page is to be selected, and I'm very curious to see how
such a selection might be performed on controversial pages, without
eventually devolving to something that amounts to a vote, whether formal or
informal.  There can only be a single "1.0 stable" version of a given page -
_someone_ has to win, either the majority or the minority - and after that
decision is made no one gets to go back and re-edit the 1.0 version of the
page to suit their fancy.  (At least I hope not!)

BTW, you mentioned in that interview a forthcoming draft proposal - has
anything along these lines been released yet?

Thanks for your time,
Bryan


from_name: Jens Ropers

body:
On 18 Aug 2004, at 21:08, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:06:47 -0400
> From: "Michael Becker" <mbecker at jumpingjackweb.com>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Image:TrangBang.jpg and other copyright confusion
> To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID: <200408181106.AA1355743302 at jumpingjackweb.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> It seems that even though decisions have already been made by Jimbo on
> the mailing list regarding free use of images, quite a lot of arguing
> is still going on in wiki-space. Image:TrangBang.jpg was just deleted
> due to votes on vfd. It was then reuploaded, and there seems to be a
> conflict between the uploader and deleter. Also, there seems to be an
> argument on Wikipedia talk:Fair use. I think that since Jimbo has
> given his (i.e. the foundations) official stance on fair use, this
> should be reflected by a policy of some sort in wiki-space. This would
> help diffuse any further disputes on the fair use issue. Otherwise, I
> don't see these disputes ever ending.
>

It's precisely because of this idiocy^W<swearword /> that I went ahead
and emailed the Associated Press for permission re that picture.
Only way to settle this dispute, if you're asking me.
Sadly, I haven't heard back from them (so far).

Thanks and regards,
Jens Ropers

There are two types of IT techs: The ones who watch soap operas and the
ones who watch progress bars.
http://www.ropersonline.com/elmo/#108681741955837683


from_name: Christian Semrau

body:
Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at ...> writes:

>
> Christian Semrau wrote:
> > Hello wikipedians all around the world!
> >
> > I am Christian aka SirJective from the german WP, and want to promote some
> > knowledge about a database flaw that can be handled by sysops.
> >
> > Did you ever ask yourselves why the "What links here" page of some articles
> > lists articles that don't link there?
> > Or found articles listed on Special:Shortpages that are not short (at least
> > not as short as listed on that page)?
> > Or articles listed on Special:Lonelypages that are not orphaned?
>
> I've been working on these kinds of problems recently. The cause usually
> seems to be a SELECT performed without a FOR UPDATE option.
> Unfortunately using more locking will cause more deadlocks and lock wait
> timeout errors, but hopefully with appropriate use of retry loops and
> other measures, these problems can be kept to a minimum.

Hello Tim,

I thank you for searching solutions to prevent these problems for the future.
Do you have ideas/plans how to get rid of the existing duplicates?
I would prefer some automated solution, instead of letting sysops delete and
undelete these entries manually.

Today I uploaded a list to ja: and updated the nl: and the en: list.
The de: list (ca. 100 entries) has been cleared by Fristu.
(All reachably from [[meta:Multiple titles]].)

Christian
de:Benutzer:SirJective


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Wikicommons

body:
Brion-
>> Please let us start the Wikicommons and add functionality when we think
>> of some, when we program some.

> Erik M?ller proposed specific things for WikiCommons. When he gets some
> code written, I'm sure we'll be happy to put it online.

It'll still be a week or two until I can hack on MediaWiki again. However,
several people would like to use a wiki purely for putting up and
cataloging some of the open content images they have taken/created which
do not yet have a home on Wikimedia.

I still believe that starting without any way to actually use these images
elsewhere, and with a structure that will likely change significantly
later, is not a very good idea, but I'll state here again for the public
record that, given that I haven't been able to start work on the Commons
code in the timeframe I originally suggested, I have no formal objections
to a basic wiki being set up for those interested in sharing and
cataloging images, developing a category structure, basic policies etc.
Andre in particular feels very strongly about this and other than my own
original objection, nobody seems to have voiced any opposition.

The proposal being discussed here, although running under the name
Wikimedia Commons, is not identical to what is on meta. It is merely a
wiki for cataloging multimedia. Whatever decision you arrive at, I have
nothing to do with it and there's no need to consult me on anything.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikicommons


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Does anyone knows the beginning of ja?

body:
Souvenir... souvenir... :o)
In fact I don't remember well, but I know Brion was very enthusiastic
starting this Wikipedia. Ask him the reason, but the fact he read/write
some Japanese is surely a point.
Here is what I can recall (it is certainly not the reality, so please
correct if needed):
* Brion starts a first version (UseMod?) of Japanese Wikipedia around
September 2002. I remember some non-Japanese people came there to write
few stubs/lists
* In November 2002, Brion starts a new version (Phase3?). At this time
the Japanese Wikipedia was almost sleeping and I was the only user
available for testing the new server (it's why I'm registered as user
number 2. Number 1 is of course Brion). The previous version database
was very small (perhaps few dozen articles) so the content was not
converted to the new server and old one staid alive for a wile to let us
copy pages from old server to the new one. It's why you can't found the
vestiges of the first edits on the current database. Perhaps Brion is
keeping a backup of the old version!?
* After, I think some non-Japanese people came back there to make some
edits and we started to translate the interface in Japanese. Personally,
I advertised Wikipedia around me (I'm in Japan) and tried to make people
contribute to it, but as far as I know, it was unsuccessful.
* The 19^th of December, Brion let me a message on my talk page to
inform me that someone was creating (real) articles on Japanese
Wikipedia! (? Peut-?tre t'interesse; il y a quelqu'un sur ja.wiki !
--Brion 08:46 d?c 19, 2002 (CET) ?). I think it was Hijiri. Few weeks
later (January 2003?), Tomos arrived at ja.wiki. They know the
continuation ;o)

Andre Engels wrote :

> From that I guess it would not be bad to consider Aoineko the one who
> started the Japanese Wikipedia. That also has the advantage of having
> someone who actually speaks Japanese and is still active on Wikipedia.

I really don't merit the title of "the one who started the Japanese
Wikipedia". If you want to award someone, you must elect Brion. Nothing
would have been possible without his will to start and help the
non-English Wikipedias. Meanwhile, if you need someone for an interview
in Japan, I'm of course available :o)

Finally, what the firsts done is really less important than the great
job Japanese wikipedians done since;o) Omedeto !

Aoineko


from_name: Emmanuel

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese

body:
First of all, I do not speak English very well. I am from Brazil.

Both "Brazilian culture of copyright infringment" and "I imagine the wider
Wikipedia community will have to regularly audit them for compliance."
sound to me very offensive. I believe that the wider Wikipedia community
has to regularly audit the wider Wikipedia. And this is all.

In the early days, pt.wiki was poor documented. Pt.wiki was Portuguese
club for almost 3 years. I believe that Brazilians do not felt welcome.
Portuguese and Brazilian ways of communicating, asking, answering, etc.
are different. These things possibly triggered disputes. But we have to
forget this past, because the reality now is other.

Rationally speaking as Jimbo demanded, I think that the pt_br.wiki is
unnecessary:
- pt_br (Brazilian) and pt_pt (European) are less different than American
and British English are;
- pt.wiki welcome all the variants of Portuguese. It is not allowed to
change anything from one variant to another;
- There are 18 Brazilians for each one Portuguese in the world. Brazilians
WTFly crazily invaded orkut, fotolog and most the blogs. Quickly, Brazil
will overrun pt.wikipedia. The portuguese people are the ones who should
be worried, but they are not.
- The most important: Brazil and Portugal governments are trying to unify
pt_br and pt_pt. Some small countries are already using this unified
Portuguese. Soon there will be only one Portuguese Language.

There is absolutely no chance of splitting the pt.wiki. It makes no sense
at all.

e2m

Em Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:00:50 +1000, Tim Starling
<ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> escreveu:

> Felipe Sanches wrote:
>> Wikipedia new language request.
>> There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian Portuguese
>> as their main language.
>> Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain
>> pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list
>> (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available)
>
> I'm worried that this might be just another aspect of the old
> nationalistic dispute that's been raging on pt for many months. We've
> had a Brazilian admin continually recreating a deleted article, and
> eventually getting frustrated and abusing his admin powers. He was
> de-sysopped by me. And the Portuguese admins report being constantly
> attacked for trying to uphold site-wide policy.
>
> One of the Portuguese admins told me that the cause of the dispute is a
> Brazilian culture of copyright infringment. A Brazilian contributor
> would copy and paste from another website, and a Portuguese admin would
> delete it. Some of the Brazilian contributors apparently framed this as
> a nationalistic dispute, as if Portugal was trying to exert control over
> its former colony.
>
> If we did have a Brazilian Portuguese wiki, it should be made very clear
> to them that all content must be public domain or legally licensed under
>   GFDL. I imagine the wider Wikipedia community will have to regularly
> audit them for compliance.
>
> -- Tim Starling


from_name: Manuel G R

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
In the case of ISO 8859-1 characters outside the ASCII range (e.g. ?, ?,
?, ?, etc) it actually needs more space, 1 byte versus 2 bytes, I think.
Nevertheless nl: has few of these characters when compared with es: or fr:.

?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
> He is probably confusing it with UTF-16 or UTF-32
>
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:22:04 +0200, Stephan Walter
> <stephan.walter at epfl.ch> wrote:
>
>>Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>>some time ago to move to UTF-8. At the time it was not such a good idea
>>>as UTF-8 does take more room.
>>
>>More room? UTF-8 does not use more memory, if that's what you mean. HTML
>>entities (like Ӓ) use 5 up to 7 bytes, while a character in UTF-8
>>uses at most 4 bytes.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Stephan
>>
>>--
>>Stephan.Walter at epfl.ch  --  http://lart.info/~stw/  --  PGP: B2421799
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikitech-l mailing list
>>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>


subject: [Wikitech-l] External diff engine

body:
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:41:05 -0700
>From: Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>
<snip>
>
>Steinar H. Gunderson has been working on a C++ diff engine that can be

>plugged into MediaWiki without too much fuss. Current 1.4 CVS has
>drop-in support for it thanks to JeLuF.
<snip>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Might this fix bug #718089
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=718089&group_id=34373&atid=411192

or any other History/diff bugs, or is it exactly the same just coded in
C++?

--Dittaeva


subject:
[Wikitech-l] nl:wikipedia does not want a starting capital for its
	articles

body:
Hai,
On the English wiktionary there has been a longstanding issue with
people not wanting to change en:wiktionary so that articles can start
with a lowercase letter. As the nl:wiktionary has more words in other
languages than in Nederlands, we found that the capitalisation works not
only for Roman characters but also for Cyrilic characters and maybe others

This makes the way we have tried to maintain the capitalisation really
akward. It is a good enough reason for us not to want the capitalisation
anymore. Could someone please turn this function off for us?

Thanks,
    GerardM


list: wiktionary-l

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] nl:wikipedia does not want a starting capital for
	its articles


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] External diff engine

body:
leercontainer-wikimedia at yahoo.com wrote:
> Might this fix bug #718089
> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=718089&group_id=34373&atid=411192
>
> or any other History/diff bugs, or is it exactly the same just coded in
> C++?

The ones I tested looked the same. Try it and see.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, and Serbo-Croatian

body:
Austin Hair wrote:
> As for that, some time ago I noticed that we have Bosnian, Serbian,
> Croatian, and Serbo-Croatian wikis.  I'm sure this topic must have been
> debated somewhere, but nobody I've asked has been able to illuminate me
> as to the rationale for this decision.  Can anyone here?

I do not know the rationale, either.  I think it is something that we
should discuss.

One of the obvious goals of wikipedia, big picture, is to promote
intelligent discourse in the interest of world harmony.  We should be
very careful, of course, to respect that if there are significant
language differences that require separate wikis, then separate wikis
are required.

But we should be very skeptical of proposed splits that might be
driven more by political/ethnic trouble, etc.

I would love to learn more about the current situation, and to reach
out to these wikipedia communities to find out if they would like to
change things.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Felipe Sanches wrote:
> Wikipedia new language request.
> There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian Portuguese
> as their main language.
> Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain
> pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list
> (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available)

I'm worried that this might be just another aspect of the old
nationalistic dispute that's been raging on pt for many months. We've
had a Brazilian admin continually recreating a deleted article, and
eventually getting frustrated and abusing his admin powers. He was
de-sysopped by me. And the Portuguese admins report being constantly
attacked for trying to uphold site-wide policy.

One of the Portuguese admins told me that the cause of the dispute is a
Brazilian culture of copyright infringment. A Brazilian contributor
would copy and paste from another website, and a Portuguese admin would
delete it. Some of the Brazilian contributors apparently framed this as
a nationalistic dispute, as if Portugal was trying to exert control over
its former colony.

If we did have a Brazilian Portuguese wiki, it should be made very clear
to them that all content must be public domain or legally licensed under
  GFDL. I imagine the wider Wikipedia community will have to regularly
audit them for compliance.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Domas Mituzas

subject: [Wikitech-l] anoncvs/webcvs mirror for mediawiki

body:
Hi,

as SF anoncvs services are down, I've made a mirror (uff, revision-by-revision), and made a public CVS phase3 mirror.

The web interface (I couldn't resist making it monobook :) can be reached at http://cvs.defau.lt/phase3/
Anoncvs repo is ':pserver:anoncvs at cvs.defau.lt:/root', module 'phase3', password empty.

As proper sync took more than 24 hours (mirror had to be built revision-by-revision, doing ssh key exchange for every operation and waiting for SF servers...), even dry syncs do run more than 5 minutes, so I decided to run sync of languages/ maintenance/ and includes/ every 10 minutes, and full sync of phase3 repo every hour.

It should be much faster than SF's public CVS services.

Cheers,
Domas

P.S. I'm out for out-of-country vacation for next 10 days, so in case of mirror failure don't be too angry. Though, feedback is welcome.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
<snip>
>
>--- Felipe Sanches <felipe.sanches at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wikipedia new language request.
>> There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian
Portuguese
>> as their main language.
>> Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain
>> pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list

In Norway there are two official forms of written norwegian (bokm?l
~90% and nynorsk ~10%) that I suppose differ more than br_pt and pt_pt
judging from the comments here on the list. In addition there is one
(perhaps two) "unofficial" conservative form also in use(riksm?l),
especially by one of the first and most active contributors (Wolfram).
We have had some long and "disruptive" discussions and and I suspect
that new contributors /might/ have been turned off by the dominant form
bokm?l being used on the interface and on almost all articles.

Recently a new contributor has been wary of the dominance of bokm?l and
wanted to start a new nynorsk wikipedia, which has also been done, just
like that!
http://nn.wikipedia.org

the discussions that ensued before and after have resulted in me making
this (roughly translated) policy, which nobody has disagreed with yet
(the most active users in the discussion have agreed):

1 Articles on the norwegian Wikipedia can be written in any currently
active form of norwegian.
2 Since Wikipedia is a [[wiki]], anyone ''can'' change the language
form of an article, it should then be up to this user to:
2.1 Change the language form of the whole article in one operation.
2.2 Move the article to a new name if needed.
2.3 Not do this to provoke or harm the work of others.
2.4 Communicate the content as good or better than before.

It is quite finished yet, I found some errors now, but I think this
will  prevent the balkanization of the Norwegian Wikipedia.

--Dittaeva


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: An alternate parser

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:

> This is what i'm writing currently

So how many people are currently working on a new parser?  :-)

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: In CVS

body:
Jan Hidders wrote:

>> I have solved this currently by first parsing it as
>>
>> <listblock>
>>  <listline><listbullet /> One</listline>
>>  <listline><listbullet /><listnumbered /> Two</listline>
>>  <listline><listbullet /><listnumbered /> Three</listline>
>>  <listline><listbullet /> Four</listline>
>> </listblock>
>>
>> and then calling a separate routine that transforms this into the
>> desired structure.
>
> Afterwards? Could you not have a global variable that contains a stack
> of bullettypes (of the preceding line) and do this while parsing? I
> suspect you now have to materialize the parse tree, no?

You would have to "materialise" some stuff in memory anyway.  I don't
think "materialising" the 'ListBlock', 'ListLine' and 'ListBullet'
objects (and freeing them again later) isn't a particularly significant
performance loss.  If you think it is, of course, you are free to modify
my parser accordingly when it's finished.  :-)

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
Kai F. Lahmann wrote:
> - Links with Encodings as %FC don't work after the conversion - they should be
> converted before, especially for Interlanguage-Links, where you sometimes
> can't guess the right spelling

That should work fine, can you give some examples?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: In CVS

body:
Jan Hidders wrote:

>> I have indeed been told by a friend that it would be a better idea to
>> write down the BNF for the grammar before starting to write the yacc
>> file.  So I tried.  But then, when I finally did the yacc file, I
>> realised that it was not such a good idea after all.  In fact, it was
>> a waste of time.  You need to be able to test the grammar while you
>> are working on it, and you want to be able to tweak certain parts
>> before writing certain other parts that depend on them.
>
> I hadn't realized yet you were already using yacc. All I wanted was to
> see the grammar you are using now, by which I simply mean the yacc input.

Yes, I know that this is what you meant.  But personally I think it is
easier to write the parser first, and then use the yacc source file as
the grammar description.

Of course, one obvious caveat of this is that the yacc file will also
contain grammar rules whose purpose is to catch invalid markup.  This
can be seen as a good thing, though: it means the grammar describes even
what happens exactly when invalid markup is entered.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> I have been informed by Walter that nl:wikipedia had decideded quite
> some time ago to move to UTF-8. At the time it was not such a good idea
> as UTF-8 does take more room.

Who exactly is thinking that two bytes for a Cyrillic character (for
example) takes "more room" than a six-character HTML entity?

Timwi


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> Austin Hair wrote:
>>As for that, some time ago I noticed that we have Bosnian, Serbian,
>>Croatian, and Serbo-Croatian wikis.  I'm sure this topic must have been
>>debated somewhere, but nobody I've asked has been able to illuminate me
>>as to the rationale for this decision.  Can anyone here?
>
> I do not know the rationale, either.  I think it is something that we
> should discuss.

As far as I know we've had sr and hr wikis since the earliest days. bs
was eventually added on request, and the abandoned sh wiki was
eventually closed to reduce redundancy.

Note that the ISO 639 code 'sh' for Serbo-Croatian was officially
withdrawn on February 18, 2000.
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/codechanges.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Constans, Camille (C.C.)

subject: [Wikitech-l] UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
We have no pages about utf-8 IIRC. I wait for the original developper of the conversion software, when he'll be back, in few days, I'll convert sv.wiktionary and nl.wikipedia. And maybe the others too if it works well :)
For en... I wait for new servers, to make a blank test to see how many times it could take.

Shaihulud

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
>Am Dinsdag 17 August 2004 12:53 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>> However, as many other wikipedia like de: and es: have made the
>> conversion, it is a good idea to ask for the nl:wikipedia to be
>> converted. We have asked if there are people on nl: that
>have opposing
>> views, there were none.
>
>do you have a page about the conversion?
>
>- --
>Kai F. Lahmann
>
>1zu160-Bahner
>http://www.1zu160.net
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>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: In CVS

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Jan Hidders wrote:
>
>> I hadn't realized yet you were already using yacc. All I wanted was
>> to see the grammar you are using now, by which I simply mean the yacc
>> input.
>
> Yes, I know that this is what you meant.  But personally I think it is
> easier to write the parser first, and then use the yacc source file as
> the grammar description.

?? So do I. But I would like to see the yacc source as it is right now
and try to follow the design of it step by step.

> Of course, one obvious caveat of this is that the yacc file will also
> contain grammar rules whose purpose is to catch invalid markup.  This
> can be seen as a good thing, though: it means the grammar describes
> even what happens exactly when invalid markup is entered.

Of course. That's what the grammar is supposed to do, otherwise it
wouldn't be complete.

-- Jan Hidders


subject: [Wikitech-l] Article history link

body:
Jens Ropers wrote:
> Could this be changed, so that on the history list, the top/newest
> link, too, would be the respective "oldid"-link?
> (The link to the article tab should stay generic.)

An oldid is not assigned until the revision is saved into the old table.
Hence, you see, the problem.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Ralesk Ne'vennoyx

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese

references:
<9a7916a70408171156901ea7e@mail.gmail.com>	<cg0u43$a36$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<opscymdbogz68vbu@localhost>

body:
Emmanuel wrote:
> - There are 18 Brazilians for each one Portuguese in the world.
> Brazilians WTFly crazily invaded orkut, fotolog and most the blogs.
> Quickly, Brazil will overrun pt.wikipedia. The portuguese people are the
> ones who should be worried, but they are not.

I?m glad you mentioned blogs.  LiveJournal faced a similar issue, and
they decided to keep it together, as far as I can recall.  They decided
to try to use expressions that are understandable for both sides ? and
while this is easy on an interface, it?s by far not as obvious in the
FAQs, which are, just like Wikipedia articles, long and made out of
complete sentences.


from_name: Kai F. Lahmann

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
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Am Dunnersdag 19 August 2004 01:11 schrieb Manuel G R:
> In the case of ISO 8859-1 characters outside the ASCII range (e.g. ?, ?,
> ?, ?, etc) it actually needs more space, 1 byte versus 2 bytes, I think.
> Nevertheless nl: has few of these characters when compared with es: or fr:.

those are 128 characters, which get 1 byte bigger, yes. Also there are many
characters, which get smaller, as the HTML-Entities are 6-8 Byte long, the
same in UTF-8 is only 3-4 Byte. And don't forget links like [[Lodz|??d?]]: 28
byte before, 14 Byte after (maybe little different..). Same for all
Interwiki-Links to non-latin Wikipedias and even for many east-european WPs.
On DE: (known to have a massive use of ?, ? ? and ?) we had no visible grow
with the conversion.

- --
Kai F. Lahmann

1zu160-Bahner
http://www.1zu160.net
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subject: [Wikitech-l] UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
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Am Dinsdag 17 August 2004 12:53 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> However, as many other wikipedia like de: and es: have made the
> conversion, it is a good idea to ask for the nl:wikipedia to be
> converted. We have asked if there are people on nl: that have opposing
> views, there were none.

do you have a page about the conversion?

- --
Kai F. Lahmann

1zu160-Bahner
http://www.1zu160.net
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from_name: Felipe Sanches

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese

body:
It seems to me that brazilians were still not affected by a "wikipedia
fever" - I mean, WP is far from being as well known as Orkut in
Brazil.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
Kai F. Lahmann wrote:

>>In the case of ISO 8859-1 characters outside the ASCII range (e.g. ?, ?,
>>?, ?, etc) it actually needs more space, 1 byte versus 2 bytes, I think.
>>Nevertheless nl: has few of these characters when compared with es: or fr:.
>
> those are 128 characters, which get 1 byte bigger, yes. Also there are many
> characters, which get smaller, as the HTML-Entities are 6-8 Byte long, the
> same in UTF-8 is only 3-4 Byte. And don't forget links like [[Lodz|??d?]]: 28
> byte before, 14 Byte after (maybe little different..). Same for all
> Interwiki-Links to non-latin Wikipedias and even for many east-european WPs.
> On DE: (known to have a massive use of ?, ? ? and ?) we had no visible grow
> with the conversion.

I really don't know why we are discussing here the space requirements of
UTF-8 versus Latin-1.  This is absolutely not a criterion, a problem, an
issue, or a concern.

We want UTF-8 because it allows us to do things that Latin-1 cannot do
(in particular, have article titles with proper characters).  Talking
about space requirements is pointless. Something that can do less will
*obviously* require less space for the things it *can* do, but what use
is that if it cannot do what we want.

Timwi


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>
>>I don't think that a vote would help.  It will only show one group to be
>>dominant, and may just divide that community even more.  Accepting the
>>other side's way of expressing itself is worth a lot more.
>>
>>
>
>I think it's the opposite, but maybe I misunderstand you.
>
Puzzled????  Since our views appear to co-incide on this.  - Consensus
building is to be preferred over voting.

>If a handful of Americans got fed up with those crazy British
>spellings and insane measurements that no one has ever heard of, like
>"kilometre" and such nonsense, and asked us to create an American
>English wikipedia, we would quite properly refuse, right?  What we
>would say is "Accepting the other side's way of expressing itself is
>worth a lot more".
>
Canadian usage has always been based on a compromise between the two.
On the Km issue we do tend to go with the international standard. :-)

>And that's what we do on en, i.e. "try to relax" about it.  There are
>some conventions and standards, but it really (in my opinion) boils
>down to that: let's just relax and respect and accept that other
>people use words a little bit differently.
>
>It would be unwise, I think, for people to declare that _only_
>Brazilian Portuguese is acceptable, or that _only_ European Portuguese
>is acceptable.  The best solution, I think, is for people to try to
>relax about it and get along.  This will usually involve avoiding
>local expressions as much as necessary, and trying to be
>understanding.
>
That all seems to match my own view.  These things have a way of working
themselves out when given the time as long as we don't take a panicked
approach, or one like voting which causes positions to harden.  The two
scripts for Serbian and Chinese, the accepted spelling for Jesus Christ
in Romanian are only recent examples of  an issue that will keep
repeating itself.

Ec


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>Stan Shebs wrote:
>
>
>>Unfortunately, the WP ref comes after he describes how mutual trust
>>makes Linux work, so of course the business readers' heads will have
>>twisted around several times, fallen off, and rolled into the corner.
>>
>>
>Don't underestimate business readers -- the smart ones know what's up.
>
>
But many more fail to realize that "Dilbert" was written about them.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Joao, I wanted to express my full agreement with all of the principles
that you discuss.  I repeat that I don't know enough about the
differences in language to be able to say anything about what the
right answer is, but I will say that I think that the approach you are
taking is the right one in terms of the _principles_ involved.

> We developed rules to prevent
> conflicts between Brazilian and Portuguese users:
>
> 1. Edits that change an article from a flavour to another are
> prohibited unless more than 50% of the content of article is improved.
> 2. Articles can't be moved from a title prevalent in one flavour to a
> title prevalent in another.
> 3. When an article has two possible titles both are mentioned in the
> first sentence of
> the article.
> 4. Words unfamiliar to one of the sub-communities may have a link to a
> entry in the wiktionary.

One additional etiquette guideline that you might consider is
something like our rule on en: "Articles which focus on a topic
specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally aim
to conform to the spelling of that country."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Usage_and_spelling

Presumably on topics that are particular to Portugal or Brazil, it can
be an easier read if that flavour of language is followed.

> I hope we will soon implement a new rule that allows changes to a
> more neutral language every time a word or expression causes
> conflicts. In summary, we applied the neutral point of view to our
> problem.

Whenever possible, this certainly seems wise.

> There are of course, people with good intentions that want to fork.

Yes, of course, and these people must be respected and accomodated,
and their legitimate concerns addressed as much as possible.

> In my opinion, forking is, for the moment, a bad option from the point
> of view of any well intentioned wikipedian. In the Portuguese speaking
> world, conventional encyclopaedias (commercial encyclopaedias) are
> written in a neutral flavour of the language that is pleasant both to
> the Brazilians and to the Portuguese. That's precisely the flavour of
> the language that must be adopted by an encyclopaedia writer. A
> neutral flavour is also the most adequate to an encyclopaedia.
>
> Additionally, the pt.wikipedia is still a weak community. A large
> number of users still need to absorb some of the most fundamental
> wikipedia policies like the neutral point of view and the copyright
> issues. And we have only about 13 000 articles, most of them stubs or
> incomplete articles. A fork would produce two smaller and even weaker
> communities. Our common resources would be wasted in a duplication of
> efforts.

These last two points are particularly worthy of emphasis.  The first
is that neutral language and flavor is the most adequate to an
encyclopedia anyway.  The second is that a split of a young community
like this would likely delay the achievement of major milestones by
many years.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: anoncvs/webcvs mirror for mediawiki

body:
Domas Mituzas wrote:
>
> http://cvs.defau.lt/phase3/

This is *extremely* useful. Thank you! Not just for anons, but for me
also. Those SourceForge ad banners and the entire misconfiguration of
their viewcvs was driving me crazy.

Thanks!
Timwi


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Milestone

body:
Michael Snow wrote:

> Speaking of milestones, aren't we getting pretty close to one million
> articles covering all languages?

En currently has exactly 300 administrators (sysops)... Milestones all
over the place :)


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Milestone


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

> American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican Spanish the
> same as Spanish Spanish.

American films that are filmed in American English are shown unaltered
in Britain. The German dubbed version of films is shown unaltered in
Austria and Switzerland. However, as far as I'm aware, Brazil and
Portugal tend to prepare separate dubs.

Timwi


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Emmanuel wrote:

> - The most important: Brazil and Portugal governments are trying to
> unify pt_br and pt_pt.

Wow. I wish they did that with English. And Spanish. And all other
languages with minor variants across the ocean.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
>> American English isn't the same as British English nor is Mexican
>> Spanish the
>> same as Spanish Spanish.
>
> American films that are filmed in American English are shown unaltered
> in Britain. The German dubbed version of films is shown unaltered in
> Austria and Switzerland. However, as far as I'm aware, Brazil and
> Portugal tend to prepare separate dubs.

Quebec does not accept dubbing done in France, but that has less to to
with language and more with protectionism.

Ec


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>Austin Hair wrote:
>
>
>>As for that, some time ago I noticed that we have Bosnian, Serbian,
>>Croatian, and Serbo-Croatian wikis.  I'm sure this topic must have been
>>debated somewhere, but nobody I've asked has been able to illuminate me
>>as to the rationale for this decision.  Can anyone here?
>>
>>
>
>I do not know the rationale, either.  I think it is something that we
>should discuss.
>
>One of the obvious goals of wikipedia, big picture, is to promote
>intelligent discourse in the interest of world harmony.  We should be
>very careful, of course, to respect that if there are significant
>language differences that require separate wikis, then separate wikis
>are required.
>
>But we should be very skeptical of proposed splits that might be
>driven more by political/ethnic trouble, etc.
>
>I would love to learn more about the current situation, and to reach
>out to these wikipedia communities to find out if they would like to
>change things.
>
IIRC there was no big discussion about it.  It was the one thing what
the people on all sides there wanted, and they got it, That's the part
of the world that gave us the term "balkanization".  If the issue were
to come up now we might try harder to keep them together.  It is
interesting to note that the last substantive edit on the Serbo-Croation
wiki on June 27 was at "Anarhizam" :-)

Ec


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: When can an article be considered public domain?

body:
Jim Cecropia wrote:

>Maybe I just take things too literally. ;-)
>
An indication that you have something in common with many lawyers, even
if you aren't one yourself. The profession is known more for being the
butt of jokes than for its talent at recognizing a joke.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Dan Drake

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Danny's harassment

body:
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:02:44 UTC, daniwo59 at aol.com
wrote:

>
> In a message dated 8/18/2004 9:37:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> rkscience100 at yahoo.com writes:
> A few weeks ago Danny threatened to ban me.
>
> Funny, I don't remember that. Could be,  but it is something I would
> remember. Remind me where.
> Sadly, I am
> again having problems with Danny, this time on the [[Jews
> as a chosen people]] article.
>
> Sad, indeed.
>
> Danny is making crazy statements like this:
>
> "Crazy" is ad hominem
>...

There's not much point in complaining about ad hominem arguments when the
thrust of his argument is to complain about what the _person_ involved is
(you are) doing.  They would be logically invalid if he were attacking a
position on some other subject by attacking that position's advocate
(you).  But he's not.  Not here, anyway.

Whether he's right or wrong, I have no idea and no reason to research, not
being a member of a mediation or arbitration group, to which this stuff
ought to have been referred by now.  But if he's wrong, you could either
rebut him or ignore him, either of which is better than making fallacious
claims of logical fallacy.


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: An alternate parser

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Gabriel Wicke wrote:
>
>> This is what i'm writing currently
>
>
> So how many people are currently working on a new parser?  :-)

Never heard of redundancy? We'll get at least *one* parser done, even if
some of us go bluescreen in the process ;-)

Magnus


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [X] Yes i want to delete this,

body:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>>>> ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Could the [X] yes i want to delete this button one has to click to
>>>>> delete pages/images be abolished? I dont think  anyone would by
>>>>> accedent click 2 links in a row (delete -> delete) so i dont think
>>>>> the
>>>>> checkbox is needed and just slows me and others down when doing mass
>>>>> deletion.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At least it forces users to review their choices and to enter a
>>>> comment.
>>>>  I am personally against removing this checkbox.
>>>
>>
>> A little safety valve is always a good idea.  One additonal keystroke
>> should not seriously make demands on a person's.  The argument in
>> support of it has nothing to do with trusting sysops; one operating
>> is bad faith is no prevented from action by this one keystroke.
>> Sysops can make mistakes as much as anyone else.
>
>
> I think here is a misunderstanding happening: the safety valve would
> still be kept, it's just the question to remove one of two additional
> keystrokes.
>
> To delete a page I currently have to
> 1) click the link "delete"
> 2) fill in a reason for the deletion
> 3) mark the checkbox "Yes, I really want to delete this page"
> 4) press the button "delete"
>
> How I understood Evar, he wants to have step 3) removed. My opinion:
> this can safely done (you still have to click two times and give a
> reason)
>
> Could we do this please?

Deletion still works perfectly well if you leave the reasons blank.
Making the reasons obligatory would be a lot more burdensome than
checking a box.

Ec


from_name: Pedro Fortuny Ayuso

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Well, diversity is a sign of richness, isn't it?

Pedro

> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org]En nombre de Timwi
> Enviado el: jueves, 19 de agosto de 2004 18:58
> Para: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> Asunto: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Brazilian Portuguese
>
>
> Emmanuel wrote:
>
> > - The most important: Brazil and Portugal governments are trying to
> > unify pt_br and pt_pt.
>
> Wow. I wish they did that with English. And Spanish. And all other
> languages with minor variants across the ocean.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Am Dunnersdag 19 August 2004 17:26 schrieb Timwi:
> We want UTF-8 because it allows us to do things that Latin-1 cannot do
> (in particular, have article titles with proper characters).  Talking
> about space requirements is pointless. Something that can do less will
> *obviously* require less space for the things it *can* do, but what use
> is that if it cannot do what we want.

ok.

3 Points you should know before:
- - Links with Encodings as %FC don't work after the conversion - they should be
converted before, especially for Interlanguage-Links, where you sometimes
can't guess the right spelling
- - sometimes there are two encodings for only 1 character - for example ? has 4
or 5 of them.
- - we had massive problems with non-ASCII-Usernames on de:

- --
Kai F. Lahmann

1zu160-Bahner
http://www.1zu160.net
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from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>> ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Could the [X] yes i want to delete this button one has to click to
>>>> delete pages/images be abolished? I dont think  anyone would by
>>>> accedent click 2 links in a row (delete -> delete) so i dont think the
>>>> checkbox is needed and just slows me and others down when doing mass
>>>> deletion.
>>>>
>>> At least it forces users to review their choices and to enter a comment.
>>>  I am personally against removing this checkbox.
>
> A little safety valve is always a good idea.  One additonal keystroke
> should not seriously make demands on a person's.  The argument in
> support of it has nothing to do with trusting sysops; one operating is
> bad faith is no prevented from action by this one keystroke.  Sysops can
> make mistakes as much as anyone else.

I think here is a misunderstanding happening: the safety valve would
still be kept, it's just the question to remove one of two additional
keystrokes.

To delete a page I currently have to
1) click the link "delete"
2) fill in a reason for the deletion
3) mark the checkbox "Yes, I really want to delete this page"
4) press the button "delete"

How I understood Evar, he wants to have step 3) removed. My opinion:
this can safely done (you still have to click two times and give a reason)

Could we do this please?

greetings,
elian


from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 53

body:
On 19 Aug 2004, at 18:37, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:02:44 EDT
> From: daniwo59 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Danny's harassment
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Message-ID: <2b.5f005263.2e55d4c4 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> [snip]
>
> No, I am attacking '''you''' as ignorant.
>
> [snip]
>
> Danny

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but that's ad hominem yourself.
I know it's not nice being attacked, but contrary to current common
occidental belief perpetuating a war rarely stops it.

- Jens


from_name: joao miranda

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Hello!

I would like to make some comments about the first message from Felipe Sanches.

Filipe Sanches proposes the creation of a Brazilian Portuguese
Wikipedia because in his view, Brazilian Portuguese is not the same
language as the one used in the Portuguese language wikipedia.

The Portuguese wikipedia (pt.wikipedia.org) is not the wikipedia of
european  portuguese language nor the wikipedia of Portugal. It's the
wikipedia of all the speakers of the Portuguese language. One of
founders of pt.wikipedia.org is Rodrigo Nishino from Brazil.

We now have a growing community of users from Portugal and Brazil and
at least one user from Mozambique. We have a neutral policy and
everybody can write in its own flavour of the Portuguese language. We
have articles in the Brazilian flavour of the language and article in
the European flavour of the language. We developed rules to prevent
conflicts between Brazilian and Portuguese users:

1. Edits that change an article from a flavour to another are
prohibited unless more than 50% of the content of article is improved.
2. Articles can't be moved from a title prevalent in one flavour to a
title prevalent in another.
3. When an article has two possible titles both are mentioned in the
first sentence of
the article.
4. Words unfamiliar to one of the sub-communities may have a link to a
entry in the wiktionary.

I hope we will soon implement a new rule that allows changes to a more
neutral language every time a word or expression causes conflicts. In
summary, we applied the neutral point of view to our problem.

Conflicts are usually caused by newcomers that are not familiar with
the rules of the community. Most of the time, troublemakers are people
with no intention to contribute to the project, but want to make a
political statement. Ironically they may be Brazilians complaining
that  wikipedia.pt is  mainly Portuguese and Portuguese complaining
that the wikipedia.pt is too much Brazilian. Some of them want to fork
because they want a wikipedia to represent the point of view of
Brazilians or the point of view of the Portuguese. They clearly don't
understand that the neutral point of view is inegotiable. They would
have to fork from the Wikipedia Community and not only from the
pt.wikipedia.

There are of course, people with good intentions that want to fork.
But they are, for
the moment, a small minority.

In my opinion, forking is, for the moment, a bad option from the point
of view of any well intentioned wikipedian. In the Portuguese speaking
world, conventional encyclopaedias (commercial encyclopaedias) are
written in a neutral flavour of the language that is pleasant both to
the Brazilians and to the Portuguese. That's precisely the flavour of
the language that must be adopted by an encyclopaedia writer. A
neutral flavour is also the most adequate to an encyclopaedia.

Additionally, the pt.wikipedia is still a weak community. A large
number of users still need to absorb some of the most fundamental
wikipedia policies like the neutral point of view and the copyright
issues. And we have only about 13 000 articles, most of them stubs or
incomplete articles. A fork would produce two smaller and even weaker
communities. Our common resources would be wasted in a duplication of
efforts.

JoaoMiranda

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:41:12 -0700 (PDT),
leercontainer-wikimedia at yahoo.com <leercontainer-wikimedia at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
> <snip>
> >
> >--- Felipe Sanches <felipe.sanches at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Wikipedia new language request.
> >> There are 182.1 million people in Brazil who use Brazilian
> Portuguese
> >> as their main language.
> >> Brazilian Portuguese IS NOT the same as Portuguese (domain
> >> pt.wikipedia.org) and it still isn't on the list
>
> In Norway there are two official forms of written norwegian (bokm?l
> ~90% and nynorsk ~10%) that I suppose differ more than br_pt and pt_pt
> judging from the comments here on the list. In addition there is one
> (perhaps two) "unofficial" conservative form also in use(riksm?l),
> especially by one of the first and most active contributors (Wolfram).
> We have had some long and "disruptive" discussions and and I suspect
> that new contributors /might/ have been turned off by the dominant form
> bokm?l being used on the interface and on almost all articles.
>
> Recently a new contributor has been wary of the dominance of bokm?l and
> wanted to start a new nynorsk wikipedia, which has also been done, just
> like that!
> http://nn.wikipedia.org
>
> the discussions that ensued before and after have resulted in me making
> this (roughly translated) policy, which nobody has disagreed with yet
> (the most active users in the discussion have agreed):
>
> 1 Articles on the norwegian Wikipedia can be written in any currently
> active form of norwegian.
> 2 Since Wikipedia is a [[wiki]], anyone ''can'' change the language
> form of an article, it should then be up to this user to:
> 2.1 Change the language form of the whole article in one operation.
> 2.2 Move the article to a new name if needed.
> 2.3 Not do this to provoke or harm the work of others.
> 2.4 Communicate the content as good or better than before.
>
> It is quite finished yet, I found some errors now, but I think this
> will  prevent the balkanization of the Norwegian Wikipedia.
>
> --Dittaeva
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] HTTPD cache problem w/ redirects?

body:
I'm repeatedly seeing a rather strange problem:

If I have made recent changes to an article (example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Graphics_Adapter), then I will NOT
see these changes if I go to another machine, DO NOT log on there and
view that article via a redirect. (example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGA). I instead find myself looking at a
previous article version. Logging on makes me see the new article
version. Persistently refreshing the main article seems to sometimes
also succeed in getting to the most recent version (but I may be
mistaken.)

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Thanks and regards,
Jens Ropers

There are two types of IT techs: The ones who watch soap operas and the
ones who watch progress bars.
http://www.ropersonline.com/elmo/#108681741955837683


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] nice & easy: replace MediaWiki:newpageletter "N" by an
 <img src=.....> link

body:
I do not like the bold letter "N" in my Recent Changes page; newcomers
to a wiki do not know the meaning immediately.

I simply replaced on the MediaWiki:newpageletter by a small image

old:      N
new:     <img src=/stylesheets/images/new.png>
(copy the small image into the subdirectory or somewhere else and adapt
the img src link)

Tom
Berlin
P.S: E-Mail-Notification for changed pages and User_talk page is coming
soon !! Be patient


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
I agree with Jimbo here.  Portuguese is one language, just as English is one
language, despite regional differences, and despite some ignorant (in my
view) people saying they don't speak English, but American.  And though I
may find British accents and spelling funny, that's simply what they do, and
if I were to move there or visit, I'd change how I spell things to follow
their norms.  But despite our differences, we are all still English
speakers, just as Mexicans, Colombians, and Spaniards are all Spanish
speakers, and Germans, Swiss, and Austrians are all German speakers.  We all
have our regionalisms, but we can all rise above those regionalisms and
understand each other.  Saying there should be 2 Portuguese Wikis is like
saying we need an Australian, British, American, and Canadian English Wiki,
or Swiss, Austrian, and German Wiki.  Redundancy, splitting of community
efforts, and in general, diluting the language's wiki growth.

But that's just me.

Jimmy

PS - How goes that Anglo-Saxon wiki?

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 7:45 PM
To: joao miranda; wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

Joao, I wanted to express my full agreement with all of the principles that
you discuss.  I repeat that I don't know enough about the differences in
language to be able to say anything about what the right answer is, but I
will say that I think that the approach you are taking is the right one in
terms of the _principles_ involved.

> We developed rules to prevent
> conflicts between Brazilian and Portuguese users:
>
> 1. Edits that change an article from a flavour to another are
> prohibited unless more than 50% of the content of article is improved.
> 2. Articles can't be moved from a title prevalent in one flavour to a
> title prevalent in another.
> 3. When an article has two possible titles both are mentioned in the
> first sentence of the article.
> 4. Words unfamiliar to one of the sub-communities may have a link to a
> entry in the wiktionary.

One additional etiquette guideline that you might consider is something like
our rule on en: "Articles which focus on a topic specific to a particular
English-speaking country should generally aim to conform to the spelling of
that country."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Usage_and_spelling

Presumably on topics that are particular to Portugal or Brazil, it can be an
easier read if that flavour of language is followed.

> I hope we will soon implement a new rule that allows changes to a more
> neutral language every time a word or expression causes conflicts. In
> summary, we applied the neutral point of view to our problem.

Whenever possible, this certainly seems wise.

> There are of course, people with good intentions that want to fork.

Yes, of course, and these people must be respected and accomodated, and
their legitimate concerns addressed as much as possible.

> In my opinion, forking is, for the moment, a bad option from the point
> of view of any well intentioned wikipedian. In the Portuguese speaking
> world, conventional encyclopaedias (commercial encyclopaedias) are
> written in a neutral flavour of the language that is pleasant both to
> the Brazilians and to the Portuguese. That's precisely the flavour of
> the language that must be adopted by an encyclopaedia writer. A
> neutral flavour is also the most adequate to an encyclopaedia.
>
> Additionally, the pt.wikipedia is still a weak community. A large
> number of users still need to absorb some of the most fundamental
> wikipedia policies like the neutral point of view and the copyright
> issues. And we have only about 13 000 articles, most of them stubs or
> incomplete articles. A fork would produce two smaller and even weaker
> communities. Our common resources would be wasted in a duplication of
> efforts.

These last two points are particularly worthy of emphasis.  The first is
that neutral language and flavor is the most adequate to an encyclopedia
anyway.  The second is that a split of a young community like this would
likely delay the achievement of major milestones by many years.

--Jimbo
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Article history link

body:
I would like to request the following to be improved on the Wikipedia
article history pages:
(observed w/ the English WP, things will likely be the same w/ other
languages)

Currently, all the article revisions are enumerated on the article's
history pages with "oldid" links
	(example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
title=Color_Graphics_Adapter&oldid=5312252)
-- EXCEPT however the newest revision! The newest revision is not
listed with its "oldid" link, but simply with the generic link to the
article, full stop
	(example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Color_Graphics_Adapter).

This becomes a problem when ordinary users (like myself) want to
specifically link to THAT version of the article (which is currently
the newest).
I would like to find the "oldid" link of the newest article but I
currently can't (AFAIK).
One reason for someone (e.g. me) wanting to get the newest revision's
"oldid"-link could be: I want to email somebody and want to ensure
he/she won't be reading an article of "Bush is gaaaay" when they
retrieve their email and check out the link.

Currently, the only workaround (that I know) is making a trivial change
to the article, saving that and thus making the last "newest" version a
past revision which will be listed with an "oldid"-link.

Could this be changed, so that on the history list, the top/newest
link, too, would be the respective "oldid"-link?
(The link to the article tab should stay generic.)

It would really help a lot!

Many thanks in advance! :)

Thanks and regards,
Jens Ropers

There are two types of IT techs: The ones who watch soap operas and the
ones who watch progress bars.
http://www.ropersonline.com/elmo/#108681741955837683


from_name: Pedro M V Oliveira

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Brazilian Portuguese

body:
Hi all.

E2m said it all. But I'll add: I think our wikipedia is very peaceful, we work together in a cooperative way and there's no problem, we're are growing fast now. A few days ago a guy came (that one that Jo?o Miranda said) and caused disturbs. Portuguese lang. Wikipedia is a friendly and fun wikipedia with adult, fun and w/cultivated people - we like to play sometimes. It was just one user - Lets not overreact, because of a personal view of the word, which wants to mislead non-speaks and destroy our community and aims. BTW we're relearning each others culture and I (personally and mostly) prefer to use international Portuguese already even if it is not implemented yet. It is promised that will be soon, it was decided in July. And the diversity of the language will not be harmed; it will just unify the orthography (today's differences in writting are in the same level has in English). There is virtually no problem in comprehension between different speakers in different countries (just some words gained a different meaning in one country and some are written differently  - these are a very small amount of words) - we are the Portuguese-Brazilian Encyclopedia (Enciclop?dia Luso-Brasileira) in the Internet, and we'll be better than the physical one!

sauda??es wikip?dicas,

Pedro M. Vidal de Oliveira
P?voa de Varzim, Porto, Portugal


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: UTF-8 for nl:wikipedia

body:
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:19:48 +0200 "Kai F. Lahmann" <kl at 3dots.de> wrote:

>3 Points you should know before:
>- - Links with Encodings as %FC don't work after the conversion - they
>should be
>converted before, especially for Interlanguage-Links, where you sometimes
>can't guess the right spelling

I haven't met any of those links on nl:

>- - sometimes there are two encodings for only 1 character - for example ?
>has 4
>or 5 of them.

Sounds more like a problem for having UTF-8 than for changing into it.

>- - we had massive problems with non-ASCII-Usernames on de:

These will probably be much less because non-ASCII characters are more rare
in Dutch than in German. In a total of 5245 users, I counted 7 usernames
with non-ASCII characters (I might have missed 1 or 2). 5 of these have not
made any edits, and a sixth was only a one-time interwiki visitor, so the
only user that would actually have problems is K?nsterle.

Andre Engels