from_name: Michael R. Irwin

body:
Eric R. Meyers wrote:

> snip

>Obviously, I'm not a wiki expert.  I'm simply a Systems Engineer and Perl
>Programming Language advocate, who frequently uses Wikipedia to learn, and I
>really like what Wikimedia has been doing over the last few years, so I'm
>also a Wikimedia advocate.  I really liked Shlomi's great idea, and Shlomi is
>a wiki expert from Israel, and he has researched and/or used a variety of
>wiki server programs.  Jacinta is a wiki expert from Australia, and she said
>that http://perl.net.au uses MediaWiki for their wiki named "PerlNet ? The
>Perl portal for Australia and New Zealand."  I simply said that I'd like to
>help them to set this good thing up, and I'm trying to figure out "The Right
>Way" to do it.
>
>
You might consider setting up a Perl learning community at Wikiversity.
In the short run it might consist of as little as concise summaries
about links to other online Perl resources.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Computer_Science

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Software_Engineering

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Informatics

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Library_and_Information_Science

As you can see there are a number of places where an active Perl
community might be placed. If you prefer front page billing and feel the
community will grow large enough to justify it feel free to put a
"School of Perl" or "The Oysterbed" in the initial index page.

For your information Wikiversity is currently in an indefinite holding
pattern. The links above are at a prototyping site within Wikibooks.
Once final authorization to proceed is received we will probably
duplicate the existing Wikibooks wiki and then delete or modify
inappropriate materials at Wikibooks and at the permanent
en.wikiversity.org wiki domain.

If you speak German the de.wikiversity.org domain is already active and
would probably welcome a large Perl prescence to assist in creating
their wiki.

I hope you decide to checkout Wikiversity. Good luck wherever you decide
to publish or participate.

If Wikiversity looks too raw and unorganized for your purposes of
focusing on Perl, please checkback in a few years. Some of us expect a
fairly rapid growth curve once the final wiki domain is active.

regards,
lazyquasar


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki, or Perl-Wikipedia


list: textbook-l

from_name: Lord Voldemort

subject:
[Textbook-l] Wikibooks 3-year anniversary announcement
	(preliminary)

body:
On 7/7/06, Robert Scott Horning <robert_horning at netzero.net> wrote:
> We would like to proclaim this in a number of places including Wikinews,
> Foundation-l, and a few other places that might be of note with this all
> coordinated on July 10th.   Slashdot was one of the suggested places as
> well, for instance.  If there are any thoughts on how to "publicize"
> this milestone, it would be appreciated.

I might say to have at least a tiny mention somewhere on Wikipedia.  A
lot of Wikipedians have no clue what we do at Wikibooks, or even that
Wikibooks even exists.  I'm not saying anything huge, perhaps just a
mention in a few places like Jimbo's Talk page, maybe AN, possibly the
Village Pump.  I know it doesn't seem like much, but I think it might
be a good draw of some of our better Wikipedians to a Wikibooks that
could use them.  Just a thought.  --LV


list: wikien-l

from_name: Joseph Hiegel

subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 36, Issue 20

body:
Jesse is, I think, right, inasmuch as those who create articles apropos of their otherwise non-notable and/or unverifiable companies, websites, or theories may well not perceive any promotional effect from the existence of their articles, and surely may not intend such promotion.  Many may read the injunctive message and think that it doesn't apply to his/her article because there is no promotional purpose and because (in his/her mind) the subject is notable.  I am rather confident that George W. Bush deeply and sincerely believes that his actions are in the best interests of the American people, notwithstanding that it seems altogether clear to me that they are often not; even if it's evident to most editors that a given website/theory/company/band is non-notable (or unverifiable), it may not be evident to those creating a page.

  [[WP:AGF]] (and good sense) means, I think, that we oughtn't to classify as vandals those who create a page about a topic to which we'd imagine the injunctive message to refer.  Surely if one continues to create articles where he/she is cognizant of their "unencyclopedic" nature, "vandal" is an appropriate term; even if he/she doesn't intend to be disruptive, the effect of his/her actions is disruptive, and he/she has been apprised of such disruptive quality and elects (for whatever reason, most typically simple recalictrance) to continue editing in a manner to which the community are opposed.

  One imperative message, though, isn't sufficient, in my mind, to ensure that a newbie well understands what is inappropriate for the encyclopedia, and I think many prospective valuable contributors could be lost by our dismissing straightaway and as "vandals" misguided or nescient new users.

  Joe
  [[User:Jahiegel|Joe]]

"Daniel P. B. Smith" <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
  > From: Jesse W
>

> \However, many bad pages created are not created in bad faith - the
> people who create them are not vandals. People who think the
> encyclopedia would benefit from an article on their novel theory of
> history, or their new company, or this fascinating new website they
> just came across - *are* *not* acting in bad faith, and *are* *not*
> intending to damage the 'pedia (although, in fact, they are), and so
> *are* *not* vandals.

When anyone who creates a new article, a message above the edit box
is displayed which reads:

"Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about
yourself, your friends, your company or products; or articles created
as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, may be deleted in
accordance with our deletion policies."

Anyone who goes ahead anyway and creates an article promoting their
new company most certainly _is_ acting in bad faith.
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Rob Church

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.7.0 release candidate

body:
On 07/07/06, Ulisse Savi <ulisavi at tin.it> wrote:
> I need to insert the wikipedia mirror in a group of many different sites (i
> have almost 200 sites). And i need to use Plesk, that not allow PHP 5.1.
> (only 5.04)

Sucks to be you, eh?

> Yes. Wikipedia dumps are for 1.7. And, AT THE MOMENT,  the unique stable
> version is 1.6.

Actually, MediaWiki 1.7.0 has been released.

> Only 50/60 servers use php 5.1.4.2 in the entire internet and

60% of all statistics, including this one, are pulled from people's
rear ends. Fascinating little world, isn't it?

PHP 5.0.x branch is old, obsolete and unmaintained.

> some articles tell that 1.7 require 5.1 and some other that it is not
> required (and 5 is sufficient).

We *think* it might work with 5.0.x but we haven't been testing it
against it. I run PHP 5.1.4 on all testing and development boxes, as
do the other core developers; Wikimedia wikis run 5.1.4 too. No one is
absolutely sure, hence we up the requirement to avoid whinging later.

> Your words are a little offensive for me.  You are a little badly educated

Take offense all you like, but it's not down to bad education. Far
from it; it's down to an upbringing and a life which so far hasn't
encouraged me to spoon feed people. I concede I could have been a
little less...provocative...but you really need to learn not to break
into hysterics in mails to a public mailing list. It isn't the fault
of the audience here that you're stuck behind a bunch of arcane
restrictions, whether that's voluntary or otherwise.

Rob Church


from_name: Ulisse Savi

body:
>> PHP 5 IS SUFFICIENT !!!
>> I DON'T NEED 5.1
>
> Good for you. Off you go, then.

"Off you go".
It is a little offensive that you use this words.
I need to insert the wikipedia mirror in a group of many different sites (i
have almost 200 sites). And i need to use Plesk, that not allow PHP 5.1.
(only 5.04)
Yes. Wikipedia dumps are for 1.7. And, AT THE MOMENT,  the unique stable
version is 1.6.
Only 50/60 servers use php 5.1.4.2 in the entire internet and
some articles tell that 1.7 require 5.1 and some other that it is not
required (and 5 is sufficient).
Your words are a little offensive for me.  You are a little badly educated


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-07-08

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test Template with thumb image (wiht link in description)... FAILED!
Running test message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test Language converter: output gets cut off unexpectedly (bug 5757)... FAILED!
Running test HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test HTML Hex character encoding.... FAILED!
Running test dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!

Passed 407 of 424 tests (95.99%) FAILED!


from_name: Anders Wegge Jakobsen

body:
"Ulisse Savi" <ulisavi at tin.it> writes:

> >> PHP 5 IS SUFFICIENT !!!
> >> I DON'T NEED 5.1
> >
> > Good for you. Off you go, then.
>
>
> "Off you go".
> It is a little offensive that you use this words.

 Maybe, but correct nevertheless. The Mediawiki software is made for
the benefit of the Wikimedia foundation for use on its various
projects. Thus, the software will reflect the needs of the WMF. As a
courtesy, the software is released for public use.

> I need to insert the wikipedia mirror in a group of many different sites (i
> have almost 200 sites). And i need to use Plesk, that not allow PHP 5.1.
> (only 5.04)

 You clearly have conflicting needs then. Stop using plesk, or use an
older version of mediawiki, and live with that. Blaming Rob for
stating this simple fact is more than "a little offensive".

> Yes. Wikipedia dumps are for 1.7. And, AT THE MOMENT,  the unique stable
> version is 1.6.

 Since the 15th-largest website in the world runs on the HEAD version
of the SVN trunk, the term "stable version" is a bit misleading
here. Instead of complaining, you should actually be happy that we
provide access to the current version on a 0-minute basis.

> Only 50/60 servers use php 5.1.4.2 in the entire internet and some
> articles tell that 1.7 require 5.1 and some other that it is not
> required (and 5 is sufficient).

 Well, the WMF cluster is one of those sites. And as I said above, the
Mediawiki software is primarily developed to cover the needs the WMF
have.

> Your words are a little offensive for me.  You are a little badly
> educated

 I beg to differ...

--
// Wegge
Min begrundelse for at betragte Arne Wilstrup som en paphat:
<http://wiki.wegge.dk/Usenet_personligheder>
Bruger du den gratis spamfighther ser jeg kun dine indl?g *EN* gang.


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] History paging overlap bug fixed, URLs changing

body:
Double crosspost to wikipedia-l and wikitech-l because this might affect
some people.

There was a bug with history paging whereby the last item of one page was
displayed as the first item of the next, i.e. the pages overlapped. This has
now been fixed in MediaWiki, and the fix will shortly be live on Wikimedia
sites. The consequence of this is that some history URLs will now be offset
by one row compared to how they were before. A link like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&offset=20060320004434&action=history

...will display the items *after* 2006-03-20, 00:44:34 UTC, *not* inclusive
of that date, whereas before the fix it would have displayed items inclusive
of that date.

The reason for the change is that if we kept the same URL scheme, in some
cases, it would have required an extra database query to work out the
correct offsets for the prev/next links. Using non-inclusive offsets, all
the data is available already.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Felipe Sanches

subject: [Wikitech-l] Ajax MathPreview

body:
Hi,
I am working on a ajax formula editor for mediawiki. It is not
complete yet (theres still a lot of stuff to be done) but I would like
to let you all see it and give say what you think about it.

I am sending a svn patch file and a tar.bz2 containing images that I
created for the editor's math menu.

In this patch I have split ajax.js in tree files:

skins/common/ajax/ajax.js ---> only remains the core ajax funcionalities
skins/common/ajax/Search.js ---> the Search-As-You-Type feature
skins/common/ajax/MathPreview.js ---> the formula editor feature

I have also created the following global variables:
 $wgUseMathPreview (defaults to true)
 $wgUseAjaxSearch (defaults to true)

They are intended for feature-based configuration and they depend on
$wgUseAjax being true (i.e. somebody could disable only the formula
editor that is still experimental)

TODOs:
*direct tex input via inputbox integration
*findout a clever way of editing fractions, subscripts, superscripts, etc...

thanks,
Juca

PS: Can anybody test it on IE ? I tested it only in Firefox. I'm on Linux... (-:


subject: [Wikitech-l] Squid timeout question

body:
Travis Derouin wrote:
> I have a Squid question, thought I'd post it here since the set up is
> related to Wikipedia's, and no one on the Squid mailing list had any
> ideas...
>
> We're running Squid in reverse proxy as an http accelerator,
> configured as described on meta.wikimedia.org. When our back end web
> server that generates the uncached content has problems (high load,
> etc) and becomes unresponsive, so does our front-end Squid server -
> that is request for cached and uncached pages become stalled.
>
> is there a way that we can configure Squid to ignore this and continue
> to serve cached content  to users when a certain timeout has passed
> when contacting the back end Apache server? it would be helpful in two
> ways, one, visitors accessing cached content won't experience the
> interruption, and two, connections to the back end server won't pile
> up, adding to the problem.

I don't believe we've had this problem, squid should keep serving cached
pages reasonably efficiently until the filedescriptor limit is reached or
you run out of CPU. You might want to check that there is in fact no
communication back to the webserver when squid serves "cached" pages. It
might be doing an If-Modified-Since (IMS) refresh, or a full request. If it
is, then you need to make sure you're sending the right Expires and
Cache-Control headers.

Make sure you're using epoll not poll. There's the possibility that your
select loop is becoming too slow as the connection count increases. You'll
see high system CPU and a high select loop period in cachemgr.cgi.

Although it's probably irrelevant in this case, you should also check that
your squid server isn't being loaded beyond its capacity in other ways:
namely disk speed, RAM and network. We've often observed cache hits becoming
slower than cache misses due to squid undercapacity.

But above all, don't forget to fix your backend performance problem. It's
not much of a wiki if all it can serve is cache hits. There's some advice
improving performance at

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_FAQ&oldid=333976#MediaWiki_is_slow.2C_how_can_I_make_it_faster.3F

It seems to have been deleted from the current version of the FAQ.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikitech-l] Ajax MathPreview

body:
sorry! here are the URLs for the files:

http://aluno.no-ip.info/juca/AjaxMathPreview-mediawiki.diff
http://aluno.no-ip.info/juca/AjaxMathPreview-images.tar.bz2


list: foundation-l

from_name: Eric R. Meyers

body:
Hi Michael,

I'm very glad to hear from you.   I actually saved one of your recent emails
to foundation-l, Re: [Foundation-l] Wikiversity - feedback, because it
sounded so familiar about our both "pursuing parallel development of massive
projects."  I've thought about nominating myself "for your committee's
assessment and approval," because my thinking is very much in-line with your
more academic way of thinking.

I'm a Pennsylvania State University graduate, and I'm very proud of that,
because that is where I turned my brain on completely, into working in my
higher gear, and because that is where I learned not to be ashamed of my own
personal opinions and perspectives, even though most of the people around me
always disagreed with my more conservative Christian tendencies.

On Friday 07 July 2006 23:20, Michael R. Irwin wrote:
> Eric R. Meyers wrote:
> > snip
> >
> >
> >Obviously, I'm not a wiki expert.  I'm simply a Systems Engineer and Perl
> >Programming Language advocate, who frequently uses Wikipedia to learn, and
> > I really like what Wikimedia has been doing over the last few years, so
> > I'm also a Wikimedia advocate.  I really liked Shlomi's great idea, and
> > Shlomi is a wiki expert from Israel, and he has researched and/or used a
> > variety of wiki server programs.  Jacinta is a wiki expert from
> > Australia, and she said that http://perl.net.au uses MediaWiki for their
> > wiki named "PerlNet ? The Perl portal for Australia and New Zealand."  I
> > simply said that I'd like to help them to set this good thing up, and I'm
> > trying to figure out "The Right Way" to do it.
>
> You might consider setting up a Perl learning community at Wikiversity.
> In the short run it might consist of as little as concise summaries
> about links to other online Perl resources.
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Computer_Science
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Software_Engineering
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Informatics
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Library_and_Information_
>Science
>
> As you can see there are a number of places where an active Perl
> community might be placed. If you prefer front page billing and feel the
> community will grow large enough to justify it feel free to put a
> "School of Perl" or "The Oysterbed" in the initial index page.
>
> For your information Wikiversity is currently in an indefinite holding
> pattern. The links above are at a prototyping site within Wikibooks.
> Once final authorization to proceed is received we will probably
> duplicate the existing Wikibooks wiki and then delete or modify
> inappropriate materials at Wikibooks and at the permanent
> en.wikiversity.org wiki domain.
>
> If you speak German the de.wikiversity.org domain is already active and
> would probably welcome a large Perl prescence to assist in creating
> their wiki.
>
> I hope you decide to checkout Wikiversity. Good luck wherever you decide
> to publish or participate.
>
> If Wikiversity looks too raw and unorganized for your purposes of
> focusing on Perl, please checkback in a few years. Some of us expect a
> fairly rapid growth curve once the final wiki domain is active.
>
> regards,
> lazyquasar
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Michael, as you can probably tell, I'm very into prototyping new systems.

How can an apparently illiterate collection of people in this world possibly
learn what The Truth really is today, if they don't get to learn from the
present day experts to educate themselves about what The Truth really means.

We live in a very complex world of utter informational mayhem and mass
confusion, and most people only spin The Truth for their own immediate
personal benefit, without showing any sincere regard for the others around
them who are just trying to live in peace.  I'm a complete believer in Jesus
Christ, who said that he is "the way, the truth and the life," and no one
comes to the Father except through him.  I'm a living Good Samaritan, even
though I've found that others don't even bother to return the favor to me,
when I need some sincere help during my times of personal troubles.

How can anyone possibly know what The Truth is today?

Proverbs 23:12 (NIV):
        Apply your heart to instruction and your ears to words of knowledge.

The Truth is always the truth, no matter how you look at it, and no matter how
many times or different ways you discover to look at it, it still rings true
with a pure resonance of something very real called the truth.  Lies are
simply imaginary things, they have no pure resonance, and they will always
fail the ultimate test for The Truth, and that is our multiply shared
opinions and our commonly shared perspectives.  Each of us has our own
opinions and perspectives, but when we share the same opinions and
perspectives, then we have come a little closer to what The Truth really is
today.  We all have to become more tolerant with each other, for the sake of
having sincere and honest discussions in pursuit of The Truth, because The
Truth is what really matters to all of us.  The Truth is "The Right Way" to
live our daily lives.

A good, free and open "Wikiversity" higher education is a very worthy goal.

I'm in to that too, so please let me know how I can help, because I will
always advocate "The Right Stuff."

Sincerely,

Eric
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20060708/e48e53b6/attachment.pgp


body:
Hi Michael,

I'm very glad to hear from you.   I actually saved one of your recent emails
to foundation-l, Re: [Foundation-l] Wikiversity - feedback, because it
sounded so familiar about our both "pursuing parallel development of massive
projects."  I've thought about nominating myself "for your committee's
assessment and approval," because my thinking is very much in-line with your
more academic way of thinking.

I'm a Pennsylvania State University graduate, and I'm very proud of that,
because that is where I turned my brain on completely, into working in my
higher gear, and because that is where I learned not to be ashamed of my own
personal opinions and perspectives, even though most of the people around me
always disagreed with my more conservative Christian tendencies.

On Friday 07 July 2006 23:20, Michael R. Irwin wrote:
> Eric R. Meyers wrote:
> > snip
> >
> >
> >Obviously, I'm not a wiki expert.  I'm simply a Systems Engineer and Perl
> >Programming Language advocate, who frequently uses Wikipedia to learn, and
> > I really like what Wikimedia has been doing over the last few years, so
> > I'm also a Wikimedia advocate.  I really liked Shlomi's great idea, and
> > Shlomi is a wiki expert from Israel, and he has researched and/or used a
> > variety of wiki server programs.  Jacinta is a wiki expert from
> > Australia, and she said that http://perl.net.au uses MediaWiki for their
> > wiki named "PerlNet ? The Perl portal for Australia and New Zealand."  I
> > simply said that I'd like to help them to set this good thing up, and I'm
> > trying to figure out "The Right Way" to do it.
>
> You might consider setting up a Perl learning community at Wikiversity.
> In the short run it might consist of as little as concise summaries
> about links to other online Perl resources.
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Computer_Science
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Software_Engineering
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Informatics
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Library_and_Information_
>Science
>
> As you can see there are a number of places where an active Perl
> community might be placed. If you prefer front page billing and feel the
> community will grow large enough to justify it feel free to put a
> "School of Perl" or "The Oysterbed" in the initial index page.
>
> For your information Wikiversity is currently in an indefinite holding
> pattern. The links above are at a prototyping site within Wikibooks.
> Once final authorization to proceed is received we will probably
> duplicate the existing Wikibooks wiki and then delete or modify
> inappropriate materials at Wikibooks and at the permanent
> en.wikiversity.org wiki domain.
>
> If you speak German the de.wikiversity.org domain is already active and
> would probably welcome a large Perl prescence to assist in creating
> their wiki.
>
> I hope you decide to checkout Wikiversity. Good luck wherever you decide
> to publish or participate.
>
> If Wikiversity looks too raw and unorganized for your purposes of
> focusing on Perl, please checkback in a few years. Some of us expect a
> fairly rapid growth curve once the final wiki domain is active.
>
> regards,
> lazyquasar
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Michael, as you can probably tell, I'm very into prototyping new systems.

How can an apparently illiterate collection of people in this world possibly
learn what The Truth really is today, if they don't get to learn from the
present day experts to educate themselves about what The Truth really means.

We live in a very complex world of utter informational mayhem and mass
confusion, and most people only spin The Truth for their own immediate
personal benefit, without showing any sincere regard for the others around
them who are just trying to live in peace.  I'm a complete believer in Jesus
Christ, who said that he is "the way, the truth and the life," and no one
comes to the Father except through him.  I'm a living Good Samaritan, even
though I've found that others don't even bother to return the favor to me,
when I need some sincere help during my times of personal troubles.

How can anyone possibly know what The Truth is today?

Proverbs 23:12 (NIV):
        Apply your heart to instruction and your ears to words of knowledge.

The Truth is always the truth, no matter how you look at it, and no matter how
many times or different ways you discover to look at it, it still rings true
with a pure resonance of something very real called the truth.  Lies are
simply imaginary things, they have no pure resonance, and they will always
fail the ultimate test for The Truth, and that is our multiply shared
opinions and our commonly shared perspectives.  Each of us has our own
opinions and perspectives, but when we share the same opinions and
perspectives, then we have come a little closer to what The Truth really is
today.  We all have to become more tolerant with each other, for the sake of
having sincere and honest discussions in pursuit of The Truth, because The
Truth is what really matters to all of us.  The Truth is "The Right Way" to
live our daily lives.

A good, free and open "Wikiversity" higher education is a very worthy goal.

I'm in to that too, so please let me know how I can help, because I will
always advocate "The Right Stuff."

Sincerely,

Eric
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20060708/e48e53b6/attachment-0001.pgp


body:
Hi Michael,

I'm very glad to hear from you.   I actually saved one of your recent emails
to foundation-l, Re: [Foundation-l] Wikiversity - feedback, because it
sounded so familiar about our both "pursuing parallel development of massive
projects."  I've thought about nominating myself "for your committee's
assessment and approval," because my thinking is very much in-line with your
more academic way of thinking.

I'm a Pennsylvania State University graduate, and I'm very proud of that,
because that is where I turned my brain on completely, into working in my
higher gear, and because that is where I learned not to be ashamed of my own
personal opinions and perspectives, even though most of the people around me
always disagreed with my more conservative Christian tendencies.

On Friday 07 July 2006 23:20, Michael R. Irwin wrote:
> Eric R. Meyers wrote:
> > snip
> >
> >
> >Obviously, I'm not a wiki expert.  I'm simply a Systems Engineer and Perl
> >Programming Language advocate, who frequently uses Wikipedia to learn, and
> > I really like what Wikimedia has been doing over the last few years, so
> > I'm also a Wikimedia advocate.  I really liked Shlomi's great idea, and
> > Shlomi is a wiki expert from Israel, and he has researched and/or used a
> > variety of wiki server programs.  Jacinta is a wiki expert from
> > Australia, and she said that http://perl.net.au uses MediaWiki for their
> > wiki named "PerlNet ? The Perl portal for Australia and New Zealand."  I
> > simply said that I'd like to help them to set this good thing up, and I'm
> > trying to figure out "The Right Way" to do it.
>
> You might consider setting up a Perl learning community at Wikiversity.
> In the short run it might consist of as little as concise summaries
> about links to other online Perl resources.
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Computer_Science
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Software_Engineering
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Informatics
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Library_and_Information_
>Science
>
> As you can see there are a number of places where an active Perl
> community might be placed. If you prefer front page billing and feel the
> community will grow large enough to justify it feel free to put a
> "School of Perl" or "The Oysterbed" in the initial index page.
>
> For your information Wikiversity is currently in an indefinite holding
> pattern. The links above are at a prototyping site within Wikibooks.
> Once final authorization to proceed is received we will probably
> duplicate the existing Wikibooks wiki and then delete or modify
> inappropriate materials at Wikibooks and at the permanent
> en.wikiversity.org wiki domain.
>
> If you speak German the de.wikiversity.org domain is already active and
> would probably welcome a large Perl prescence to assist in creating
> their wiki.
>
> I hope you decide to checkout Wikiversity. Good luck wherever you decide
> to publish or participate.
>
> If Wikiversity looks too raw and unorganized for your purposes of
> focusing on Perl, please checkback in a few years. Some of us expect a
> fairly rapid growth curve once the final wiki domain is active.
>
> regards,
> lazyquasar
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Michael, as you can probably tell, I'm very into prototyping new systems.

How can an apparently illiterate collection of people in this world possibly
learn what The Truth really is today, if they don't get to learn from the
present day experts to educate themselves about what The Truth really means.

We live in a very complex world of utter informational mayhem and mass
confusion, and most people only spin The Truth for their own immediate
personal benefit, without showing any sincere regard for the others around
them who are just trying to live in peace.  I'm a complete believer in Jesus
Christ, who said that he is "the way, the truth and the life," and no one
comes to the Father except through him.  I'm a living Good Samaritan, even
though I've found that others don't even bother to return the favor to me,
when I need some sincere help during my times of personal troubles.

How can anyone possibly know what The Truth is today?

Proverbs 23:12 (NIV):
        Apply your heart to instruction and your ears to words of knowledge.

The Truth is always the truth, no matter how you look at it, and no matter how
many times or different ways you discover to look at it, it still rings true
with a pure resonance of something very real called the truth.  Lies are
simply imaginary things, they have no pure resonance, and they will always
fail the ultimate test for The Truth, and that is our multiply shared
opinions and our commonly shared perspectives.  Each of us has our own
opinions and perspectives, but when we share the same opinions and
perspectives, then we have come a little closer to what The Truth really is
today.  We all have to become more tolerant with each other, for the sake of
having sincere and honest discussions in pursuit of The Truth, because The
Truth is what really matters to all of us.  The Truth is "The Right Way" to
live our daily lives.

A good, free and open "Wikiversity" higher education is a very worthy goal.

I'm in to that too, so please let me know how I can help, because I will
always advocate "The Right Stuff."

Sincerely,

Eric
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20060708/e48e53b6/attachment.pgp>


body:
Hi Michael,

I'm very glad to hear from you.   I actually saved one of your recent emails
to foundation-l, Re: [Foundation-l] Wikiversity - feedback, because it
sounded so familiar about our both "pursuing parallel development of massive
projects."  I've thought about nominating myself "for your committee's
assessment and approval," because my thinking is very much in-line with your
more academic way of thinking.

I'm a Pennsylvania State University graduate, and I'm very proud of that,
because that is where I turned my brain on completely, into working in my
higher gear, and because that is where I learned not to be ashamed of my own
personal opinions and perspectives, even though most of the people around me
always disagreed with my more conservative Christian tendencies.

On Friday 07 July 2006 23:20, Michael R. Irwin wrote:
> Eric R. Meyers wrote:
> > snip
> >
> >
> >Obviously, I'm not a wiki expert.  I'm simply a Systems Engineer and Perl
> >Programming Language advocate, who frequently uses Wikipedia to learn, and
> > I really like what Wikimedia has been doing over the last few years, so
> > I'm also a Wikimedia advocate.  I really liked Shlomi's great idea, and
> > Shlomi is a wiki expert from Israel, and he has researched and/or used a
> > variety of wiki server programs.  Jacinta is a wiki expert from
> > Australia, and she said that http://perl.net.au uses MediaWiki for their
> > wiki named "PerlNet ? The Perl portal for Australia and New Zealand."  I
> > simply said that I'd like to help them to set this good thing up, and I'm
> > trying to figure out "The Right Way" to do it.
>
> You might consider setting up a Perl learning community at Wikiversity.
> In the short run it might consist of as little as concise summaries
> about links to other online Perl resources.
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Computer_Science
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Software_Engineering
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Informatics
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity:School_of_Library_and_Information_
>Science
>
> As you can see there are a number of places where an active Perl
> community might be placed. If you prefer front page billing and feel the
> community will grow large enough to justify it feel free to put a
> "School of Perl" or "The Oysterbed" in the initial index page.
>
> For your information Wikiversity is currently in an indefinite holding
> pattern. The links above are at a prototyping site within Wikibooks.
> Once final authorization to proceed is received we will probably
> duplicate the existing Wikibooks wiki and then delete or modify
> inappropriate materials at Wikibooks and at the permanent
> en.wikiversity.org wiki domain.
>
> If you speak German the de.wikiversity.org domain is already active and
> would probably welcome a large Perl prescence to assist in creating
> their wiki.
>
> I hope you decide to checkout Wikiversity. Good luck wherever you decide
> to publish or participate.
>
> If Wikiversity looks too raw and unorganized for your purposes of
> focusing on Perl, please checkback in a few years. Some of us expect a
> fairly rapid growth curve once the final wiki domain is active.
>
> regards,
> lazyquasar
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Michael, as you can probably tell, I'm very into prototyping new systems.

How can an apparently illiterate collection of people in this world possibly
learn what The Truth really is today, if they don't get to learn from the
present day experts to educate themselves about what The Truth really means.

We live in a very complex world of utter informational mayhem and mass
confusion, and most people only spin The Truth for their own immediate
personal benefit, without showing any sincere regard for the others around
them who are just trying to live in peace.  I'm a complete believer in Jesus
Christ, who said that he is "the way, the truth and the life," and no one
comes to the Father except through him.  I'm a living Good Samaritan, even
though I've found that others don't even bother to return the favor to me,
when I need some sincere help during my times of personal troubles.

How can anyone possibly know what The Truth is today?

Proverbs 23:12 (NIV):
        Apply your heart to instruction and your ears to words of knowledge.

The Truth is always the truth, no matter how you look at it, and no matter how
many times or different ways you discover to look at it, it still rings true
with a pure resonance of something very real called the truth.  Lies are
simply imaginary things, they have no pure resonance, and they will always
fail the ultimate test for The Truth, and that is our multiply shared
opinions and our commonly shared perspectives.  Each of us has our own
opinions and perspectives, but when we share the same opinions and
perspectives, then we have come a little closer to what The Truth really is
today.  We all have to become more tolerant with each other, for the sake of
having sincere and honest discussions in pursuit of The Truth, because The
Truth is what really matters to all of us.  The Truth is "The Right Way" to
live our daily lives.

A good, free and open "Wikiversity" higher education is a very worthy goal.

I'm in to that too, so please let me know how I can help, because I will
always advocate "The Right Stuff."

Sincerely,

Eric
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20060708/e48e53b6/attachment-0001.pgp>


from_name: Shinjiman

subject: [Wikitech-l] An issue on Cite.php extension

body:
Rob Church <robchur at ...> writes:

>
> On 16/06/06, Rob Church <robchur at ...> wrote:
> > On 16/06/06, Shinjiman <shinjiman at ...> wrote:
> > > Someone just found out about an issue using the "Cite this article"
function.
> > > for example, when we see the "Wikipedia" article as of 00:33, 16 June
> > > 2006, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Wikipedia&oldid=58859884].
> > > The URL link to the "Cite this article" is linking to the current
> > > version of the article. It should supposed to cite that article as of
> > > that modification time, instead of the current revision , IMHO. Is
> > > this really an issue about the Cite.php extension?
> >
> > No, but if it's an issue at all, then it's one with SpecialCite.php or
> > with the core code, if we merged that functionality in.
>
> ...and I can't see why the hell this is an issue, as I can't reproduce
> the problem.
>
> Rob Church
>

There's an example to reproduce a problem.

*Select a earlier revision of an article, for example: an "Wikipedia" article
as of 00:01, 6 July 2006 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Wikipedia&oldid=62278950]
*See the "Cite this article" link, it's link to the current revision of the
citation of the article, which is incorrect.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Special:Cite&page=Wikipedia&id=62663748], this revision is modified as
of 02:23, 8 July 2006. IMO, it should be linked to the corrresponding revision
number, which is revision 62278950, for example.

Man


subject: [Wikitech-l] Squid timeout question

body:
Travis Derouin wrote:
> Great, thanks for the suggestions! I have some questions.
>
>
>> I don't believe we've had this problem, squid should keep serving cached
>> pages reasonably efficiently until the filedescriptor limit is reached or
>> you run out of CPU. You might want to check that there is in fact no
>> communication back to the webserver when squid serves "cached" pages. It
>> might be doing an If-Modified-Since (IMS) refresh, or a full request. If it
>> is, then you need to make sure you're sending the right Expires and
>> Cache-Control headers.
>
> The correct headers are just
>
>   Cache-Control: s-maxage=2678400, must-revalidate, max-age=0
>
> which are generated in Outputpage.php, right?

I'd rather have it confirmed by canonical evidence rather than by relying on
us, after all, we might be doing it wrong too. Try tcpdump, or if you can't
do that, the webserver logs, or if you can't do that either, the squid logs
will tell you things like "TCP_IMS_HIT" or "TCP_MISS".

>> Make sure you're using epoll not poll. There's the possibility that your
>> select loop is becoming too slow as the connection count increases. You'll
>> see high system CPU and a high select loop period in cachemgr.cgi.
>
> I'm not sure what epoll and poll are and can't seem to find any
> documentation on them, can you point me in the right direction?

http://www.google.com/search?epoll+squid

I believe it's in Squid 2.6:

http://www.squid-cache.org/mail-archive/squid-users/200606/0416.html

I'm not sure how you're meant to tell whether it's running or not, besides
the dramatically lower system CPU.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki

body:
Hi Shlomi,

On Saturday 08 July 2006 06:26, you wrote:
> > On Friday 07 July 2006 17:47, you wrote:
> > > Personally, I feel that putting the central Perl wiki within Wikipedia
> > > may not be such a good idea. That's because Perl hackers may wish to
> > > deviate somewhat from Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View. For example,
> > > the Perl wiki may have an entry about Python, Ruby, Tcl, etc. with some
> > > criticisms of their approaches of doing things.
> >
> > There is a correct time and a correct place for everything.  There are
> > some things that are appropriate to be placed neutrally under the Perl
> > topic within Wikipedia itself, and some are not, so we just need to
> > organize and police things smartly, moderating the content as needed to
> > make it public, while providing external links out to the proper private
> > location, or locations, for the Perl biased expressions to occur.  No
> > foul and no problem, I believe.
>
> Right, but this will fragment the Perl central wiki. If people have to look
> in two different places, this would be confusing. I'd rather have one wiki
> and that's it.
>

I absolutely agree with you, but all options are kept available to us.  I'm
formally removing the incorrect name "Perl-Wikipedia" from this discussion
about "The Perl Wiki," to avoid any further confusion.

People will be going to two major information resources.  They will be going
to Wikipedia to learn about many topics, including Perl, and they will be
going directly to The Perl Wiki for its centralized Perl information.  I
believe that the Perl related topics within Wikipedia will be a very big part
of the total information solution, along with The Perl Wiki however it is
implemented.

> > I also believe that a truly objective Perl person could legitimately
> > write a factually valid and complete critique about the various
> > programming languages, comparing "their approaches of doing things"
> > without showing a bias toward any particular language, or languages.
>
> True, but see below.
>
> > We just need to be very
> > fair, complete and moderate in what we do for the general public.  It's
> > simply a difference between the formality of writing from "Wikipedia's
> > Neutral Point of View" and someone quickly hacking out an expression of
> > their Perl biased opinions in a more private Perl setting.
>
> Yes, but I still believe that a Perl wiki may be somewhat different than a
> Perl section in the wikipedia.
>
I completely agree with you, because like you've been doing with your recent
Wikipedia entry about Tom Christiansen, and your Wikibooks project for
Newbies, there are "A Lot of Things Perl," including good encyclopedic or
technical information that is best created within Wikipedia or Wikibooks, and
simply referenced by The Perl Wiki as needed to amplify the local topics or
discussions going on in the in everday happenings of The Perl Wiki.

The global Perl community has a very good story to tell to the world through
all of the Wikimedia components that are available.  You're doing exactly
"The Right Stuff," by utilizing the Wikimedia components to tell part of the
Perl story, by adding a page in Wikipedia to tell the world about Tom
Christiansen's great contributions to Perl, and by writing new Wikibooks to
help bring new people into the Perl community.

Eric
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20060708/a8bd0b3b/attachment.pgp


subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki

body:
Hi Shlomi,

On Saturday 08 July 2006 06:26, you wrote:
> > On Friday 07 July 2006 17:47, you wrote:
> > > Personally, I feel that putting the central Perl wiki within Wikipedia
> > > may not be such a good idea. That's because Perl hackers may wish to
> > > deviate somewhat from Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View. For example,
> > > the Perl wiki may have an entry about Python, Ruby, Tcl, etc. with some
> > > criticisms of their approaches of doing things.
> >
> > There is a correct time and a correct place for everything.  There are
> > some things that are appropriate to be placed neutrally under the Perl
> > topic within Wikipedia itself, and some are not, so we just need to
> > organize and police things smartly, moderating the content as needed to
> > make it public, while providing external links out to the proper private
> > location, or locations, for the Perl biased expressions to occur.  No
> > foul and no problem, I believe.
>
> Right, but this will fragment the Perl central wiki. If people have to look
> in two different places, this would be confusing. I'd rather have one wiki
> and that's it.
>

I absolutely agree with you, but all options are kept available to us.  I'm
formally removing the incorrect name "Perl-Wikipedia" from this discussion
about "The Perl Wiki," to avoid any further confusion.

People will be going to two major information resources.  They will be going
to Wikipedia to learn about many topics, including Perl, and they will be
going directly to The Perl Wiki for its centralized Perl information.  I
believe that the Perl related topics within Wikipedia will be a very big part
of the total information solution, along with The Perl Wiki however it is
implemented.

> > I also believe that a truly objective Perl person could legitimately
> > write a factually valid and complete critique about the various
> > programming languages, comparing "their approaches of doing things"
> > without showing a bias toward any particular language, or languages.
>
> True, but see below.
>
> > We just need to be very
> > fair, complete and moderate in what we do for the general public.  It's
> > simply a difference between the formality of writing from "Wikipedia's
> > Neutral Point of View" and someone quickly hacking out an expression of
> > their Perl biased opinions in a more private Perl setting.
>
> Yes, but I still believe that a Perl wiki may be somewhat different than a
> Perl section in the wikipedia.
>
I completely agree with you, because like you've been doing with your recent
Wikipedia entry about Tom Christiansen, and your Wikibooks project for
Newbies, there are "A Lot of Things Perl," including good encyclopedic or
technical information that is best created within Wikipedia or Wikibooks, and
simply referenced by The Perl Wiki as needed to amplify the local topics or
discussions going on in the in everday happenings of The Perl Wiki.

The global Perl community has a very good story to tell to the world through
all of the Wikimedia components that are available.  You're doing exactly
"The Right Stuff," by utilizing the Wikimedia components to tell part of the
Perl story, by adding a page in Wikipedia to tell the world about Tom
Christiansen's great contributions to Perl, and by writing new Wikibooks to
help bring new people into the Perl community.

Eric
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20060708/a8bd0b3b/attachment-0001.pgp


subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki

body:
Hi Shlomi,

On Saturday 08 July 2006 06:26, you wrote:
> > On Friday 07 July 2006 17:47, you wrote:
> > > Personally, I feel that putting the central Perl wiki within Wikipedia
> > > may not be such a good idea. That's because Perl hackers may wish to
> > > deviate somewhat from Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View. For example,
> > > the Perl wiki may have an entry about Python, Ruby, Tcl, etc. with some
> > > criticisms of their approaches of doing things.
> >
> > There is a correct time and a correct place for everything.  There are
> > some things that are appropriate to be placed neutrally under the Perl
> > topic within Wikipedia itself, and some are not, so we just need to
> > organize and police things smartly, moderating the content as needed to
> > make it public, while providing external links out to the proper private
> > location, or locations, for the Perl biased expressions to occur.  No
> > foul and no problem, I believe.
>
> Right, but this will fragment the Perl central wiki. If people have to look
> in two different places, this would be confusing. I'd rather have one wiki
> and that's it.
>

I absolutely agree with you, but all options are kept available to us.  I'm
formally removing the incorrect name "Perl-Wikipedia" from this discussion
about "The Perl Wiki," to avoid any further confusion.

People will be going to two major information resources.  They will be going
to Wikipedia to learn about many topics, including Perl, and they will be
going directly to The Perl Wiki for its centralized Perl information.  I
believe that the Perl related topics within Wikipedia will be a very big part
of the total information solution, along with The Perl Wiki however it is
implemented.

> > I also believe that a truly objective Perl person could legitimately
> > write a factually valid and complete critique about the various
> > programming languages, comparing "their approaches of doing things"
> > without showing a bias toward any particular language, or languages.
>
> True, but see below.
>
> > We just need to be very
> > fair, complete and moderate in what we do for the general public.  It's
> > simply a difference between the formality of writing from "Wikipedia's
> > Neutral Point of View" and someone quickly hacking out an expression of
> > their Perl biased opinions in a more private Perl setting.
>
> Yes, but I still believe that a Perl wiki may be somewhat different than a
> Perl section in the wikipedia.
>
I completely agree with you, because like you've been doing with your recent
Wikipedia entry about Tom Christiansen, and your Wikibooks project for
Newbies, there are "A Lot of Things Perl," including good encyclopedic or
technical information that is best created within Wikipedia or Wikibooks, and
simply referenced by The Perl Wiki as needed to amplify the local topics or
discussions going on in the in everday happenings of The Perl Wiki.

The global Perl community has a very good story to tell to the world through
all of the Wikimedia components that are available.  You're doing exactly
"The Right Stuff," by utilizing the Wikimedia components to tell part of the
Perl story, by adding a page in Wikipedia to tell the world about Tom
Christiansen's great contributions to Perl, and by writing new Wikibooks to
help bring new people into the Perl community.

Eric
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20060708/a8bd0b3b/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki

body:
Hi Shlomi,

On Saturday 08 July 2006 06:26, you wrote:
> > On Friday 07 July 2006 17:47, you wrote:
> > > Personally, I feel that putting the central Perl wiki within Wikipedia
> > > may not be such a good idea. That's because Perl hackers may wish to
> > > deviate somewhat from Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View. For example,
> > > the Perl wiki may have an entry about Python, Ruby, Tcl, etc. with some
> > > criticisms of their approaches of doing things.
> >
> > There is a correct time and a correct place for everything.  There are
> > some things that are appropriate to be placed neutrally under the Perl
> > topic within Wikipedia itself, and some are not, so we just need to
> > organize and police things smartly, moderating the content as needed to
> > make it public, while providing external links out to the proper private
> > location, or locations, for the Perl biased expressions to occur.  No
> > foul and no problem, I believe.
>
> Right, but this will fragment the Perl central wiki. If people have to look
> in two different places, this would be confusing. I'd rather have one wiki
> and that's it.
>

I absolutely agree with you, but all options are kept available to us.  I'm
formally removing the incorrect name "Perl-Wikipedia" from this discussion
about "The Perl Wiki," to avoid any further confusion.

People will be going to two major information resources.  They will be going
to Wikipedia to learn about many topics, including Perl, and they will be
going directly to The Perl Wiki for its centralized Perl information.  I
believe that the Perl related topics within Wikipedia will be a very big part
of the total information solution, along with The Perl Wiki however it is
implemented.

> > I also believe that a truly objective Perl person could legitimately
> > write a factually valid and complete critique about the various
> > programming languages, comparing "their approaches of doing things"
> > without showing a bias toward any particular language, or languages.
>
> True, but see below.
>
> > We just need to be very
> > fair, complete and moderate in what we do for the general public.  It's
> > simply a difference between the formality of writing from "Wikipedia's
> > Neutral Point of View" and someone quickly hacking out an expression of
> > their Perl biased opinions in a more private Perl setting.
>
> Yes, but I still believe that a Perl wiki may be somewhat different than a
> Perl section in the wikipedia.
>
I completely agree with you, because like you've been doing with your recent
Wikipedia entry about Tom Christiansen, and your Wikibooks project for
Newbies, there are "A Lot of Things Perl," including good encyclopedic or
technical information that is best created within Wikipedia or Wikibooks, and
simply referenced by The Perl Wiki as needed to amplify the local topics or
discussions going on in the in everday happenings of The Perl Wiki.

The global Perl community has a very good story to tell to the world through
all of the Wikimedia components that are available.  You're doing exactly
"The Right Stuff," by utilizing the Wikimedia components to tell part of the
Perl story, by adding a page in Wikipedia to tell the world about Tom
Christiansen's great contributions to Perl, and by writing new Wikibooks to
help bring new people into the Perl community.

Eric
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20060708/a8bd0b3b/attachment-0001.pgp>


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral swarming teenage vanity spam

body:
On 7/6/06, Mark Gallagher <m.g.gallagher at student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>
> DRV is *not* an appeals court.  The rules that apply to appeals courts
> in the USA, Canada, Australia, and I assume practically everywhere else,
> do *not* apply to DRV.  We need to remember that.  DRV is not, it's
> true, in the business of providing a venue for AfD Take Two, but neither
> is it totally uninterested in the outcome provided process is followed.

I think the analogy is a valid one. Appeals courts (mostly) are very
very reluctant to overturn findings of fact made by lower or trial
courts, and instead are interested on points of law. DRV is most of
the time interested in whether "process" was followed, and is not
usually in the business of questioning the judgment on the evidence of
people who participated in the original *fD.

Of course, DRV is generally more open to reconsidering the result when
there is new evidence (uncovering more sources establishing
notability, etc) which wasn't available to the original *fD. In these
situations it can choose to relist, or endorse/overturn the *fD right
away. Again this is fairly consistent with the analogy of an appeals
court, which can order a retrial or endorse/overturn the verdict.

Of course, I'm not saying that this is necessarily a good thing, but I
do think that the comparison holds.

So I suppose the question when considering potential reform for DRV is
how to strike a balance between the current process-only focus, and
the other extreme, "AfD Take Two", as you put it Mark. How to achieve
the ability to overturn Bad Decisions while retaining a balance
between these extremes?

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Anthony

subject: [WikiEN-l] Ken Lay's death prompts confusion on Reuters

body:
Why is it that Wikipedians seem to have so much trouble accepting
legitimate criticism?

Wikipedia should be getting its facts *more* correct than the news
outlets, not less.  I remember a similar mess after the death of
[[Jean Charles de Menezes]].  Wikipedia articles repeated
unsubstantiated rumor as though it was fact.

Even now the [[Kenneth Lay]] article doesn't provide a reference next
to the assertion that "Kenneth Lay died from coronary artery disease".
 This should be unacceptable.

Anthony


from_name: mboverload

body:
I don't think that's really possible unless we stop anon users from
editing.

On 7/8/06, Anthony <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
>
> Why is it that Wikipedians seem to have so much trouble accepting
> legitimate criticism?
>
> Wikipedia should be getting its facts *more* correct than the news
> outlets, not less.  I remember a similar mess after the death of
> [[Jean Charles de Menezes]].  Wikipedia articles repeated
> unsubstantiated rumor as though it was fact.
>
> Even now the [[Kenneth Lay]] article doesn't provide a reference next
> to the assertion that "Kenneth Lay died from coronary artery disease".
> This should be unacceptable.
>
> Anthony
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Having fun with Google co-op

body:
Extremely interesting, please keep us updated.

On 7/8/06, Mathias Schindler <mathias.schindler at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> during the last weeks, I had very much joy in google co-op. You will
> find the first example of this tool now online for public testing.
> Based on Wikipedia's geographical information, you can calculate the
> distance between two cities.
>
> The google profile for this can be found at
> http://www.google.com/coop/profile?user=016597473608235241540
>
> A short description is at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_Co-op#Distance_calculation
>
> When subscribing to this google co-op-profile, a search like
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=distance+from+tampa%2C+florida+to+boston%2C+massachusetts&btnG=Google+Search
> should work.
>
> I appreciate any feedback about this (feel free to forward it to your
> friends, if you like). Please use the meta page for suggestions to
> improve it. Please continue to tag the articles with metadata such as
> geoinformation. Thanks again to anyone who has already helped in this
> project. There is more to come.
>
> Mathias
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Nick Jenkins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Ajax MathPreview

body:
Hi Juca,

> I am sending a svn patch file and a tar.bz2 containing images that I
> created for the editor's math menu.

Did you send the patches as attachments? It may be that mailman has
stripped them out (although I normally read this list using the web
archive interface, so it may be that what I see differs from what
other see). Maybe put them on the web somewhere and mail through the
link / links instead?

All the best,
Nick.


from_name: Jesse W

body:
On Jul 8, 2006, at 2:51 PM, mboverload wrote:
> I don't think that's really possible unless we stop anon users from
> editing.

/me does a double-take.

Someone using the name "mboverload", with a gmail address of the same
form, is claiming that we shouldn't allow people to use pseudonyms to
participate in Wikipedia?

This is a pot calling for the abolition of all kettles, yes?

(And don't try to claim that "mboverload" is your legal name...)

This is presuming, of course, that the OP didn't merely mean to propose
we ban editing without an account (which is a common, although
incorrect, use of the term "anon user").  If that is what was meant,
I'd merely point out that *We* *Have* *about* *Nine* *Hundred*
*Thousand* accounts that don't participate in the community, and making
a new account takes less than a minute.  Requiring accounts is a
(small) speedbump, nothing more - it's not even close to sufficient to
make Wikipedia editors non-anonymous, even to other community members.

mboverload, you've been asked before if you are merely a troll.  Let
this message be counted as another such query.

Jesse Weinstein


body:
Good points, I had forgotten about the anti-advert warning.  However...
On Jul 8, 2006, at 3:24 PM, Neil Harris wrote:
> Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>>> From: Jesse W <jessw at netwood.net>
>>> However, many bad pages created are not created in bad faith - the
>>> people who create them are not vandals.  People who think the
>>> encyclopedia would benefit from an article on their novel theory of
>>> history, or their new company, or this fascinating new website they
>>> just came across - *are* *not* acting in bad faith, and *are* *not*
>>> intending to damage the 'pedia (although, in fact, they are), and so
>>> *are* *not* vandals.
>>
>> When anyone who creates a new article, a message above the edit box
>> is displayed which reads:
>>
>> "Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about
>> yourself, your friends, your company or products; or articles created
>> as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, may be deleted in
>> accordance with our deletion policies."
>>
>> Anyone who goes ahead anyway and creates an article promoting their
>> new company most certainly _is_ acting in bad faith.
>>
> Perhaps this warning should be made a click-through for all first-time
> editors, with the "Save page" button replaced by a button reading "Yes,
> I have read the warning above, and still wish to create this article,
> which is not about myself or any of my friends."
>
> Mind you, they'd still ignore the warning, because they are IMPORTANT
> PEOPLE THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT.

A possible way to remove the "but I didn't think it was promotional!"
issue is to tell people to go to AfC (Articles for Creation) if they
even *suspect* that some nutball might *think* that they are associated
with their new article, or that the article is promotional.  That way,
when they still make it, we can point to the notice and say - "It
doesn't matter if you thought it wasn't promotional - the way to create
things that *may* be promotional is to go to AfC, not make them
directly."

Might help.

Jesse Weinstein


body:
I am utterly shocked by your reply.

The only way to stop dubious edits by anon users is to not allow them to
edit.  I don't think that should be done.  Newspapers don't care about how
fast it was reverted, it's always in the edit history.  Jesus christ.

I stated the obvious and you jump on me for being a troll.  That's pretty
hurtful.

On 7/8/06, Jesse W <jessw at netwood.net> wrote:
>
> On Jul 8, 2006, at 2:51 PM, mboverload wrote:
> > I don't think that's really possible unless we stop anon users from
> > editing.
>
> /me does a double-take.
>
> Someone using the name "mboverload", with a gmail address of the same
> form, is claiming that we shouldn't allow people to use pseudonyms to
> participate in Wikipedia?
>
> This is a pot calling for the abolition of all kettles, yes?
>
> (And don't try to claim that "mboverload" is your legal name...)
>
> This is presuming, of course, that the OP didn't merely mean to propose
> we ban editing without an account (which is a common, although
> incorrect, use of the term "anon user").  If that is what was meant,
> I'd merely point out that *We* *Have* *about* *Nine* *Hundred*
> *Thousand* accounts that don't participate in the community, and making
> a new account takes less than a minute.  Requiring accounts is a
> (small) speedbump, nothing more - it's not even close to sufficient to
> make Wikipedia editors non-anonymous, even to other community members.
>
> mboverload, you've been asked before if you are merely a troll.  Let
> this message be counted as another such query.
>
> Jesse Weinstein
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Protest!!!!

body:
I'm slightly confused, can you explain it further?

On 7/8/06, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Recently, one person deleted a lot of MediaWiki pages on nl: because
> there was now a general translation. Apparently doing the same thing
> that others do is more important than doing the thing we ourselves
> think is best. I very much OPPOSE what is being done here, and would
> ask anyone to STOP FORCING US TRANSLATIONS WE DO NOT WANT!!!!!
>
> WikipediaNL has had MediaWiki software for over 3.5 years now, and we
> have changed things with good reasons. Don't undo that without good
> reasons yourself!!!
>
> --
> Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
> ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
I didn't say to block them!

The only POSSIBLE way to stop anon users from vandalizing is blocking all of
them.  Just like the only way to stop registered users from vandalizing is
blocking all of them.

I stated the obvious.

On 7/8/06, Puppy <puppy at killerchihuahua.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 8, 2006, at 2:51 PM, mboverload wrote:
> >> I don't think that's really possible unless we stop anon users from
> >> editing.
>
> So we ban users like 69.145.123.171, and only accept users who register,
> like Jason Gastrich? Um.... I'm thinking there is a word for this... oh,
> the word is NO.
> One puppy's opinion....
> -kc-
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Shlomi Fish

subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki

body:
On Saturday 08 July 2006 18:34, Eric R. Meyers wrote:
> Hi Shlomi,
>

Hi Eric!

I subscribed to foundation-L to avoid bounces. If the incoming emails from it
become too overwhelming I will set up a filter, or posssibly instruct mailman
not to send me any mails. (so I can send mails, but won't receive any emails
that weren't CCed to me.)

> On Saturday 08 July 2006 06:26, you wrote:
> > > On Friday 07 July 2006 17:47, you wrote:
> > > > Personally, I feel that putting the central Perl wiki within
> > > > Wikipedia may not be such a good idea. That's because Perl hackers
> > > > may wish to deviate somewhat from Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View.
> > > > For example, the Perl wiki may have an entry about Python, Ruby, Tcl,
> > > > etc. with some criticisms of their approaches of doing things.
> > >
> > > There is a correct time and a correct place for everything.  There are
> > > some things that are appropriate to be placed neutrally under the Perl
> > > topic within Wikipedia itself, and some are not, so we just need to
> > > organize and police things smartly, moderating the content as needed to
> > > make it public, while providing external links out to the proper
> > > private location, or locations, for the Perl biased expressions to
> > > occur.  No foul and no problem, I believe.
> >
> > Right, but this will fragment the Perl central wiki. If people have to
> > look in two different places, this would be confusing. I'd rather have
> > one wiki and that's it.
>
> I absolutely agree with you, but all options are kept available to us.  I'm
> formally removing the incorrect name "Perl-Wikipedia" from this discussion
> about "The Perl Wiki," to avoid any further confusion.

OK. Good.

>
> People will be going to two major information resources.  They will be
> going to Wikipedia to learn about many topics, including Perl, and they
> will be going directly to The Perl Wiki for its centralized Perl
> information.

Right.

> I believe that the Perl related topics within Wikipedia will
> be a very big part of the total information solution, along with The Perl
> Wiki however it is implemented.
>

Correct. I believe it's impossible to completely eliminate duplicate
information. Even Wikipedia alone has a large amount of redundancy, which is
naturally expected of an Encyclopedia and similar data sources.

> > > I also believe that a truly objective Perl person could legitimately
> > > write a factually valid and complete critique about the various
> > > programming languages, comparing "their approaches of doing things"
> > > without showing a bias toward any particular language, or languages.
> >
> > True, but see below.
> >
> > > We just need to be very
> > > fair, complete and moderate in what we do for the general public.  It's
> > > simply a difference between the formality of writing from "Wikipedia's
> > > Neutral Point of View" and someone quickly hacking out an expression of
> > > their Perl biased opinions in a more private Perl setting.
> >
> > Yes, but I still believe that a Perl wiki may be somewhat different than
> > a Perl section in the wikipedia.
>
> I completely agree with you, because like you've been doing with your
> recent Wikipedia entry about Tom Christiansen, and your Wikibooks project
> for Newbies,

Actually, my Perl for Newbies series of Presentations is not part of
wikibooks. I wrote it before I was aware of wikipedia and possibly before
wikibooks existed. It was written using Quad-Pres, which is a sort-of home
grown HTML slides generator.

Like I said, the text and code in the slides are public domain, so they could
be integrated into separate works. Part of them were already reformated into
tutorials or howto's as part of http://perlmeme.org/. [1]

I have some ideas for a 5th or 6th presentation or perhaps I need to beef up
my 4th presentatio, but I'll have to start writing them.

One wikibook that I started as an experiment in web-accessible (and to a
lesser extent collaborative) writing is:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Optimizing_Code_for_Speed

I've wanted to write it for a long time and even prepared an outline:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Optimizing_Code_for_Speed/Outline

While I prefer to use DocBook/XML, Subversion and gvim for documents I write,
I've started working on this book as a wikibook to see if I find it better
for this. If I'm happy with this experiment, I may use it for some of my
future essays (but probably not all).

> there are "A Lot of Things Perl," including good encyclopedic
> or technical information that is best created within Wikipedia or
> Wikibooks, and simply referenced by The Perl Wiki as needed to amplify the
> local topics or discussions going on in the in everday happenings of The
> Perl Wiki.
>

Right.

> The global Perl community has a very good story to tell to the world
> through all of the Wikimedia components that are available.  You're doing
> exactly "The Right Stuff," by utilizing the Wikimedia components to tell
> part of the Perl story, by adding a page in Wikipedia to tell the world
> about Tom Christiansen's great contributions to Perl, and by writing new
> Wikibooks to help bring new people into the Perl community.

Indeed.

Hack on!

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the
bottom 5%.


subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki


from_name: Puppy

body:
> On Jul 8, 2006, at 2:51 PM, mboverload wrote:
>> I don't think that's really possible unless we stop anon users from
>> editing.

So we ban users like 69.145.123.171, and only accept users who register,
like Jason Gastrich? Um.... I'm thinking there is a word for this... oh,
the word is NO.
One puppy's opinion....
-kc-


from_name: Mathias Schindler

subject: [WikiEN-l] Having fun with Google co-op

body:
Hi,

during the last weeks, I had very much joy in google co-op. You will
find the first example of this tool now online for public testing.
Based on Wikipedia's geographical information, you can calculate the
distance between two cities.

The google profile for this can be found at
http://www.google.com/coop/profile?user=016597473608235241540

A short description is at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_Co-op#Distance_calculation

When subscribing to this google co-op-profile, a search like
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=distance+from+tampa%2C+florida+to+boston%2C+massachusetts&btnG=Google+Search
should work.

I appreciate any feedback about this (feel free to forward it to your
friends, if you like). Please use the meta page for suggestions to
improve it. Please continue to tag the articles with metadata such as
geoinformation. Thanks again to anyone who has already helped in this
project. There is more to come.

Mathias


body:
mboverload wrote:
> I didn't say to block them!
>
> The only POSSIBLE way to stop anon users from vandalizing is blocking all of
> them.  Just like the only way to stop registered users from vandalizing is
> blocking all of them.
>
> I stated the obvious.
>
>
> On 7/8/06, Puppy <puppy at killerchihuahua.com> wrote:
>>> On Jul 8, 2006, at 2:51 PM, mboverload wrote:
>>>> I don't think that's really possible unless we stop anon users from
>>>> editing.
>> So we ban users like 69.145.123.171, and only accept users who register,
>> like Jason Gastrich? Um.... I'm thinking there is a word for this... oh,
>> the word is NO.
>> One puppy's opinion....
>> -kc-

Then perhaps you were unclear. I didn't say block them. I said "ban"
them. Just as you did not say "vandals" you said "stop anon users from
editing." You didn't say "vandalizing" you said "editing." You see my
confusion. I appreciate you clarifying that you support the current
methodology, which is to encourage and welcome any contributor,
registered or not, and only block those who vandalize and disrupt.

-kc-


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

body:
On 7/8/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't say to block them!
>
> The only POSSIBLE way to stop anon users from vandalizing is blocking all of
> them.  Just like the only way to stop registered users from vandalizing is
> blocking all of them.
>
> I stated the obvious.

Mboverload is right... Heck even forget vandalizing, just consider
folks coming by to add their favorite idea or interpretation.
Wikipedia tries to be on the average pretty good, but our model
doesn't try to be good at every instant, in fact it fundamentally
precludes being good at every instant.

Criticisms based on the purely on the churn of a article in the news
are, well, not news. Look at the editing history of any hot subject
(like [[hurricane Katrina]]) and you'll see the same pattern... good
content and bad content are both added, and the bad content tends to
be removed faster than the good content.  The behavior is expected.
Our users should be aware of it (If they aren't, we need to improve
our education)... and it simply isn't going away unless we make a
fundamental change.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Quick ParserTests updates

body:
Hi All,

Two quick parserTest diffs for your check-in consideration:
1) http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/coverage/parserTests.inc.diff.txt
   Adds the ability to test $wgRawHtml=true to parserTests and removes
one duped line.
2) http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/coverage/parserTests.txt.diff.txt
   Adds some more tests, thereby incrementally increasing code
coverage to 87.98 %
   Also adds a few tests that currently fail, where I'm not convinced
totally convinced about the current behaviour (e.g. "Always escape
literal '>' in output, not just after '<'", and "Don't fall for the
self-closing div") - but as always please change the expected results
if you don't agree.

Also, is there any chance we could delete the "getTemplateArgs" method
from Parser.php ? There I was trying various template args in order to
invoke it, so as to bring up the Code Coverage stats, and I just
couldn't get it to happen. Upon checking, seems that's because this
function is never called:

=====================================================
root at bling:/var/www/hosts/mediawiki/wiki# grep -inr getTemplateArgs *
includes/.svn/text-base/Parser.php.svn-base:2608:       function
getTemplateArgs( $argsString ) {
includes/Parser.php:2608:       function getTemplateArgs( $argsString ) {
root at bling:/var/www/hosts/mediawiki/wiki#
=====================================================

If that's correct, can we please kill it? ( I'm assuming of course
it's a vestigial relic of something that was, rather than an evolving
prototype of something to come ).

All the best,
Nick.


from_name: Michael Snow

body:
Mark Gallagher wrote:

> G'day Michael S,
>
>> Mark Gallagher wrote:
>>
>>> G'day Daniel S,
>>>
>>>> (And in the legal world there are also phenomena such as jury
>>>> nullification and rogue judges...)
>>>
>>> We have them on Wikipedia, too.  Witness the Jack Thompson OFFICE
>>> action and certain admins.
>>
>> Pardon me, but what exactly are you referring to here?
>
> The Jack Thompson OFFICE action was an incident that occurred not too
> long ago.  Some background (I don't know if you already know this
> stuff, so bear with me if you do): the American Jack Thompson is a
> professional lawyer and talented amateur wowser, famous amongst a
> small subset of gamers.  The reason he's well-known to hardcore gamers
> is because the target of his wowserism is violent video games.  Since
> hardcore gamers typically enjoy playing violent video games above all
> else[0], this is not a match made in heaven by any means.
>
> Through a curious quirk of the Internet, hardcore gamers are far more
> likely to contribute Wikipedia than American attorneys.  In
> particular, strange though it sounds, hardcore gamers are far more
> likely to contribute to an article about Mr Thompson full of such
> improperly sourced, utterly trivial, and of course totally biased
> nonsense that the only reason I can't describe it as a "hatchet job"
> is because the phrase "embarrassment to Wikipedia" leaps far more
> readily to the tongue.
>
> When the Secret Wikipedia Puppet Government, aided by the Men In
> Black, finally pulled the plug on this hatch--excuse me, this
> embarrassment to Wikipedia, a thousand thousand gamers rose up in
> complaint.  "That asshole Thompson wins again!", they cried.
> "Wikipedia under the control of a Secret Wikipedia Puppet Government,
> aided by the Men in Black!", they cried.  "I credit my 'blog.  That's
> enough for me to argue that Thompson is a Satanist, right?", they
> cried.  "Ow, I just stood up for the first time in seventy-two hours
> and my knee joints cracked!", they cried.

As the person who drafted and watched over the rewritten Jack Thompson
article, I do already know what transpired, but you give a decent
summary for those who don't (as long as it's not taken too literally). I
would note that quite a few of the gamer editors quickly recognized the
superiority of a neutral, well-referenced version and have increasingly
taken over defending it and educating the newer arrivals on how to do
things properly.

> This seems to me a good case of "jury nullification": we asked for an
> opinion, we got utter bollocks in return, we said, "actually, let's
> not do what they said after all."

This is what confused me. If, as it would seem, you're equating the
response from gamers with that of a jury, then you've got the concept of
jury nullification exactly backwards. Jury nullification does not
involve a judge or some other higher authority nullifying the decision
of the jury. Jury nullification refers to the ability of the jury to
reach a verdict contrary to the law and the instructions of the court.
Fans of the concept like to cite John Peter Zenger's acquittal on a
charge of libel as an example of this.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Michael R. Irwin

subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki

body:
Shlomi Fish wrote:

> snip

>Actually, my Perl for Newbies series of Presentations is not part of
>wikibooks. I wrote it before I was aware of wikipedia and possibly before
>wikibooks existed. It was written using Quad-Pres, which is a sort-of home
>grown HTML slides generator.
>
>Like I said, the text and code in the slides are public domain, so they could
>be integrated into separate works. Part of them were already reformated into
>tutorials or howto's as part of http://perlmeme.org/. [1]
>
>I have some ideas for a 5th or 6th presentation or perhaps I need to beef up
>my 4th presentatio, but I'll have to start writing them.
>
>
>
Hi Shlomi,

You might consider developing some lesson plans or placing your slide
presentations into the public commons under an FDL at an appropriate
location in Wikiversity.    http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity

We do not have formal approval to proceed yet but an administrator at
Wikibooks (Robert Horning) has articulated an excellent plan to
duplicate the Wikibooks wiki at the en.wikiversity.org domain and then
delete or modify inappropriate materials and link structures in both
wikis to minimize rework once we have authority from the Wikimedia
Foundation Board to proceed with Wikiversity on Wikimedia Foundation
infrastructure.

regards,
lazyquasar


subject: [Foundation-l] The Perl Wiki


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.6.8 released

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

MediaWiki 1.6.8 is a security and bugfix maintenance release of the
Spring 2006 snapshot:

A potential HTML/JavaScript-injection vulnerability in a debugging script
has been fixed. Only versions and configurations of PHP vulnerable to the
$GLOBALS overwrite vulnerability are affected.

As a workaround for existing installs, profileinfo.php may simply be deleted
if it's not being used.

* (bug 5957) Updates to Hebrew translation (he)
* Respect language directionality when displaying arrow in Special:Brokenredirects
* (bug 6415) Typo in Parser.php
* Fixed potential XSS in profileinfo.php

Full release notes:
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/tags/REL1_6_8/phase3/RELEASE-NOTES
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/tags/REL1_6_8/phase3/HISTORY

Download:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.6.8.tar.gz

MD5 checksum:
4befcbe776f8585efe705b9bd799a488  mediawiki-1.6.8.tar.gz

SHA-1 checksum:
b2ac945ceef2cac253a1e73b9de1da5f79aa7e77 mediawiki-1.6.8.tar.gz

Before asking for help, try the FAQ:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:FAQ

Low-traffic release announcements mailing list:
(Please subscribe to receive announcements of security updates.)
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFEsJ1KwRnhpk1wk44RAovlAJ9Gs76xhbaTWcnCOOZOF21zAm7H5ACgge+u
dif+f35fEbm4OqW9g1OotHQ=
=rMZR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.7.1 released

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

MediaWiki 1.7.1 is a security and bugfix maintenance release of the
Summer 2006 snapshot:

A potential HTML/JavaScript-injection vulnerability in a debugging script
has been fixed. Only versions and configurations of PHP vulnerable to the
$GLOBALS overwrite vulnerability are affected.

As a workaround for existing installs, profileinfo.php may simply be deleted
if it's not being used.

* Fix for 'emailconfirmed' implicit user group
* Fix for upgrades on some versions of MySQL 4.0.x
* Fixed potential XSS in profileinfo.php
* Installer now shows clear error message about old PHP versions
  rather than a confusing parse error

Note that MediaWiki 1.7 and above require PHP 5. If you are stuck with PHP 4,
please install MediaWiki 1.6.8.

Full release notes:
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/tags/REL1_7_1/phase3/RELEASE-NOTES
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/tags/REL1_7_1/phase3/HISTORY

Download:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.7.1.tar.gz

MD5 checksum:
50b74e2b5c86fb94c7201b72d2037662  mediawiki-1.7.1.tar.gz

SHA-1 checksum:
bdd685d4fe5d7b0d8e0ef2cf9a843bbab60d20ac mediawiki-1.7.1.tar.gz

Before asking for help, try the FAQ:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:FAQ

Low-traffic release announcements mailing list:
(Please subscribe to receive announcements of security updates.)
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFEsJ4DwRnhpk1wk44RAt5RAJ97vL8gs+I8kOPAJdWU4RYtL74ixgCdGqZm
KreZ2Yxl68GLGqjDC0sPwAI=
=G+v5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Warning: Unknown: open_basedir restriction in
 effect. File

body:
Ulisse Savi wrote:
[snip]

I've placed this address under moderation on this list. Ulisse, please limit
yourself to mediawiki-l, to one copy of a message at a time, and preferably do
research and test things before posting. Thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 249 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20060708/d101eed5/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Neil Harris

body:
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>> From: Jesse W <jessw at netwood.net>
>>
>>
>
>
>> \However, many bad pages created are not created in bad faith - the
>> people who create them are not vandals.  People who think the
>> encyclopedia would benefit from an article on their novel theory of
>> history, or their new company, or this fascinating new website they
>> just came across - *are* *not* acting in bad faith, and *are* *not*
>> intending to damage the 'pedia (although, in fact, they are), and so
>> *are* *not* vandals.
>>
>
>
> When anyone who creates a new article, a message above the edit box
> is displayed which reads:
>
> "Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about
> yourself, your friends, your company or products; or articles created
> as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, may be deleted in
> accordance with our deletion policies."
>
> Anyone who goes ahead anyway and creates an article promoting their
> new company most certainly _is_ acting in bad faith.
>
>
>
>
Perhaps this warning should be made a click-through for all first-time
editors, with the "Save page" button replaced by a button reading "Yes,
I have read the warning above, and still wish to create this article,
which is not about myself or any of my friends."

Mind you, they'd still ignore the warning, because they are IMPORTANT
PEOPLE THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT.

-- Neil


body:
On Jul 8, 2006, at 4:01 PM, mboverload wrote:
> I am utterly shocked by your reply.
I'm sorry, but I'm also unsurprised.

> The only way to stop dubious edits by anon users is to not allow them
> to
> edit.
Again, you don't clarify whether you mean: 1) Wikipedia editors who do
not associate their editing with their legal name, or 2) Wikipedia
editors editing without logging in.

Further, "stop" is not entirely clear - edits are atomic transactions -
either they have not yet happened, or they have already happened - it's
not possible to "stop" them.

It is possible to prevent a given user account and/or IP address from
making future edits, for specified lengths of time.   This does not
directly translate to the ability to stop actual *people* from making
future edits.

In nearly all cases, we can make it harder for people to make future
edits, and we can remove all traces of past edits they have made, but
we can't entirely prevent them from making any edits.  There are too
many public computers out there.  So, your statement is a non-starter -
we can't do that.  However, luckily, as I said, we have a large number
of measures to make it *harder* for a given person to make future
edits, and/or to cause their past edits to be more or less hidden, and
most people who make bad edits can be successfully persuaded, by means
of these measures, to give up on making future edits, at least for a
while.  That's the nature of Wikipedia (and the world at large).

>   I don't think that should be done.
Well, since it's impossible, I suppose it's good you don't think we
should do it.

>   Newspapers don't care about how fast it was reverted, it's always in
> the edit history.
Not always.  It can be removed from public view by deletion, and
removed from the view of those with the sysop flag by use of the
Oversight feature.  But, most of the time, we don't do either of those
things.

>   Jesus christ.
Well, we do have an article (or 5) on [[Jesus Christ|Him]], but I'm not
sure of the relevance.

> I stated the obvious
I hope readers of this thread will note that, contrary to being
"obvious", what you stated is not even "possible".
>  and you jump on me for being a troll.
I viewed you as acting like one; it was not meant as a comment on your
person, merely on your posts to this list.  Nevertheless, on
reflection, you do seem to be posting in good faith; I am less certain
of my view at this point.

>   That's pretty hurtful.
As I said above, I'm sorry, but unsurprised.

Jesse Weinstein


body:
Warning: This message contains shouting.  Please cover your virtual
ears if necessary.

On Jul 8, 2006, at 4:51 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> Mboverload is right...
I think you read far more into the utterance you quoted than is there.
>  Heck even forget vandalizing, just consider
> folks coming by to add their favorite idea or interpretation.
> Wikipedia tries to be on the average pretty good, but our model
> doesn't try to be good at every instant, in fact it fundamentally
> precludes being good at every instant.
Very well said.  We really do need to keep making this as clear as
possible - *WIKIPEDIA IS A PROJECT TO WRITE AN ENCYCLOPEDIA -
WIKIPEDIA.ORG *IS* *NOT* *AN* *ENCYCLOPEDIA* - IT IS A *D*R*A*F*T* OF
AN ENCYCLOPEDIA. (Pardon the shouting.)

The only reason we are leery of clarifying this point is that we still
(justifiably) hope to capture (and turn into Wikipedian editors),
innocent users who visit Wikipedia.org merely to *read*.  I wish I knew
a better way to do this, but I don't.

Jesse

Jesse Weinstein


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-07-09

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test Template with thumb image (wiht link in description)... FAILED!
Running test message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test Language converter: output gets cut off unexpectedly (bug 5757)... FAILED!
Running test HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test HTML Hex character encoding.... FAILED!
Running test dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!

Passed 407 of 424 tests (95.99%) FAILED!


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Protest!!!!

body:
Recently, one person deleted a lot of MediaWiki pages on nl: because
there was now a general translation. Apparently doing the same thing
that others do is more important than doing the thing we ourselves
think is best. I very much OPPOSE what is being done here, and would
ask anyone to STOP FORCING US TRANSLATIONS WE DO NOT WANT!!!!!

WikipediaNL has had MediaWiki software for over 3.5 years now, and we
have changed things with good reasons. Don't undo that without good
reasons yourself!!!

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Protest!!!!

body:
2006/7/9, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com>:
> I'm slightly confused, can you explain it further?

There seems to be a project, on itself a very good idea, to translate
the MediaWiki texts in various languages. However, apparently someone
thought those were so good (and they definitely are not) that without
any further discussion they should replace what we have put on
WikipediaNL ourselves. We have been working on our current versions
for 3.5 years. That might be a sign that they are not very bad in most
cases.

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


from_name: Jacky PB

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fwd: Your e-mail

body:
Hello,

I am again pushed to post here by mark Williamson.
He sent me the following message, pretending I sent
him a message.

I have never sent him any message whatsoever.

I demand an investigation in the matter. What happens
here is not acceptable.

Yours,
Dpotop

--- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:

> Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 13:27:55 -0700
> From: "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com>
> To: "Jacky PB" <dpotop1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Your e-mail
>
> This is it. I have finally broken my silence and
> have told others
> about your nasty e-mail.
>
>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/c/c8/Dpotop1.png
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanm??? yo paske nou posede pw???p
bato.
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com