subject: [Wikitech-l] Blocking request: domains used for SEO

body:
Hi,

there is a infamous person in Germany named "Mario Dolzer" (try Google
if you speak German) who is mostly known for spreading dialers.

He is building a massive SEO network for his activities. And since
several weeks he uses dynamically grabbed wikipedia content.

He is not only ignoring "official" OTRS-Mails to him but announce to
sell his "Wikipedia-SEO-Script".

Most probably it will be best to sue him - that is not an easy job.
Second best option seems to be to cut him off.

The good thing: Most of his domains are located in a small adress space.

213.131.228.64/28
213.203.193.128/26
213.131.229.232/29

Just a 'short list' of the abusing domains:
o3.de
100000logos.de
100stunden.de
12cylinders-digital.de
170hits.de
1-a-fotograf.de
1aoe.de
1rbgi.de
3d-way.de
a-a-nail-professional.de
abg-partei.de
abkb.de
acidarea.de
addmoon.de
addy-shop.de
adventure-knut.de
aha-versicherungen.de
aj-entertainment.de
ajinomoto-europe-sales.de
akzente-juweliere.de
alkohol-stammbaum.de
alteseishaus.de
altes-gym.de
alune.de
amateurfunkzentrale.de
amazone.acidarea.de
amv-chater.de
andromeda-projekt.de
angererderjuengere.de
anke-rebholz.de
apartment-gersch.de
apexproto.de
apore.de
ass-tapper.de
astro-paradise.de
at-casting.de
aufbruch-partei.de
augenblick-berlin.de
ausbildung.eroticcounter.de
australien-ferien.de
autofit-lks.de
auto-kauper.de
aworostock.de
azsoftz.de
backpacker-berlin.de
baerbels-welt.de
balsamoel.de
bauchtaenzerin-ayana.de
baumaschinisten-service.de
baumitpeberi.de
beles-buben.de
benhamburg.de
berlin-kurierdienst.de
be-spiegelt.de
besserbio.de
best-filesharing.de
best-of-onlineshop.de
bewaesserung-oase.de
bhg-clan.de
bibliotheksumfrage.de
bier-essing.de
bigfoot-records.de
billig-mode.de
bleeq.de
bloca.de
blog.bloca.de
bluehen-institut.de
bluetensturm.de
blumenschuleshop.de
blunk-event.de
bmg-bayern.de
bms-rostock.de
bmw-webring.de
bocd2000.de
bold-studie.de
bos-systemhaus.de
boule-club-linden.de
boxen-horst-gauss.de
bpml.de
brandenburg-anzeigen.de
bratbeckerswelt.de
brauberger-luebeck.de
bruggi.de
brumm-gallery.de
bszw-zittau.de
btw2003.de
buntestempelwelt.de
cantadeon.de
carlverlag.de
carola-jetz.de
carstnet.de
ccb-berlin.de
centergame.de
cevnet.de
cheatcomm.de
check-the-sound.com
checkthesound.com
cheerleader-honeybees.de
chemische-wartungsprodukte.de
chriss-camerer.de
christ-aktiv.de
chrkoch.de
churchnews4kids.de
ckaules-mmelzer.de
compu-maus.de
comtris.de
consulting-maximum.de
containerakademie.de
coolmaster.de
creativity.mempsych.de
crickethike.de
cudesign.de
cum-web.de
cybercenter.de
cyberwyb.de
cybizz.de
daslebenistgruen.de
dasradderzeit.de
datenbank.hiphoplager.de
dayofhorror.de
deckers-music-hall.de
defiday-coburg.de
demo1502.de
dennisroedl.de
derbrunner.de
designteppich-schurwolle-dekostoff.de
deuko2004.de
dgi-dresden.de
dgsp2005.de
dgz-tagung-freiburg.de
diaboli.de
diaet-netz.de
dianastaehly.de
dieblauenraketen.de
die-dekoration.de
die-dolzer-methode.de
die-feine.de
die-halblechtaler.de
die-partei-boeblingen.de
dietheorie.de
digital-dogs.de
directrecords.de
dirk-michaels.de
diskus-kusebauch.de
dm-mtb2005.de
dmv-shop.de
dobmanns.de
domiphon.de
donopa.de
dotnet-portal.de
dpc-liga.de
dpsg-dioezese-pb.de
dqk-clan.de
dracula-kongress.de
dreamgirlsrevue.de
dsb-bundestag.de
duo.cantadeon.de
dvdclan.de
dvdcompare.de
easy-it-trade.de
eck-stein.de
edelbg.de
edv-reichelt.de
edv-systemhaus-net.de
ei.ag
eichwalder-heimatverein.de
ei-essen.de
eikya.de
einbruchspraevention.de
einewelttage.de
ekklesiastikus.de
electrobender.de
element-clan.de
elke-froehlich.de
elvado.de
emily-holunder.de
enginebay.de
ephesus-gmbh.de
eppelmann.de
erfurt-weimar-jena.de
eroticcounter.de
erotik-manufaktur.de
esports-corner.de
etw2006.de
eurolines-reisen.de
exam-hanau.de
extremsport-gmbh.de
f4faq.de
fahrschule-in-franken.de
fahrsportgemeinschaft-pulheim.de
familie-deutschland.de
fanstorys.de
farbartig.de
fatcast.de
fcb-blog.de
fc-wuestlinge.de
federweise.de
fehmer-marketing.de
feinbeckerei.de
feng-shui-institut.de
ferienfranken.de
ferien-in-volksen.de
fettabbau-mit-goodlife2000.de
finanzmarkt2004.de
find-your-flirt.de
fjhb.com
fleig-shop.de
flying-letter.de
fmfremtid.de
folkaufderbadeinsel.de
fondstalk.de
force-deutschland.de
ford-team-hohenroda.de
forgottenmods.de
forschungsprojektmensch.de
fotoamt.de
fotos.bindow-online.de
frankfurt-for-friends.de
freddys-portal.de
freibauer80.de
freiwilligenzentrum-ffo.de
freizeit-in-sh.de
freizeitparkrobot.de
friedhelm-repnik.de
fritzer-pape.de
frochwolfgang.de
fruits-basket.de
f-s-q.de
fs-tourismus.de
funoperationclan.de
galeriebrhel.de
garde.acidarea.de
gartengestaltung-bambus.de
gasthaus-sacro.de
gawitec.de
gbo-leer.de
gdotsch.de
gemaeldeheld.de
gesamtschule-beelitz.de
gigamall.de
gilesfanfic.de
girorobot.de
gkl-flensborg.de
glaenzer-books.de
gloriousplanet.de
go-loans.de
gp-team.de
gratiserotikvideo.de
graurheindorf.de
grossyacht.liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de
ground-hopping.de
gruenekiste-bs.de
gs-intermedia.de
gsmdev.de
guenterdemant.de
gwa51.de
gwv-gmbh.de
hallo-kaiser.de
handy-family.de
handylogos-handytoene.de
handylogoshop.de
hans-bruemmer.de
hans-wallow.de
harztourservice.de
hausfrauenrobot.de
haus-raphael.de
heinz-hummel.de
herbafit-online.de
heroclix.de
herrscher-des-olymp-zeus.de
highheels.plateau-overknees.de
himmelein-golm.de
hinterglaskunst.de
hiphoplager.de
hirschgarten-raudies.de
hochzeitstauben-oberbayern.de
hochzeit-tauben-muenchen.de
hogschool.de
home-kam.de
homeyinc.de
hondacommunity.de
horn-construct.de
horologium.de
hosankum.de
hotbrick.de
hprg.de
hsc-seacharter.de
hsd-community.de
hs-linux.de
hundepension-neuholland.de
ice-irc.de
ifgmk.de
ijon-tichy.de
imagework.de
immermusik.de
inetcafewn.de
informix.de
info-tec-edv.de
infowave.de
inge-lagemann.de
ingenieurbuero-franken.de
ingo-russmann.de
institut-fuer-thr.de
interbase2000.de
investcentre.de
iriszschirnt.de
it-lehrer.de
itnu.de
it-schule.info
it-schule.org
itwaren.de
it-workx.de
izmittelalterfrueheneuzeit.de
izp-gmbh.de
jamierenae.de
jeanetteb.de
jennycalendar.de
joblooker.de
jobuser.de
jobvermittlung123.de
johannesnaegele.de
jossely.de
jugendberatung-mv.de
jugend-em2005.de
jung-neu-kontakte.de
jutesite.de
kabbalah-web.de
kahdemann-trading.de
karibik-privat.de
karinaskinderwelt.de
karneval-muenster.de
karsten-mv.de
kelomey.de
kennzahlen-vergleiche.de
kent-depesche.de
khinternet.de
kh-roeder.de
kief-er.de
killianhomedesign.de
kinderaerztekongress-berlin-2004.de
kkoegel.de
klauskruhs.de
kloenschnacker.de
knightsofpride.org
knopflerfan.de
knut-meissner.de
koelnerfotonews.de
konnex-eiba.de
korz-web.de
kradtraining.de
kraeutermaerchen.de
kron-edv.de
kuehn-lang.de
kuehntax.de
kummerbuero.de
kunstschuss.de
labrador-bande.de
lackmeinauto.de
languan.de
lars-holstein.de
leitstubeadlgass.de
leonhardt-lyrik.de
lesben-dildos.de
l-f-t.de
lgfst.de
liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de
linkies.de
linux4schools.de
little-hurrican-cattery.de
longlifeproducts.de
lua-nordbayern.de
lufthansareisen.de
lummberg.de
magiewald.de
mahanail-koeln.de
malika-serviceleistungen.de
malum1.de
mamamia-bayreuth.de
mamasu.de
marko-knoche-service.de
marktoberdorf-therapeutikum.de
marktplatz121.de
massagesessel-shop.de
matthiasrieper.de
max-und-moritz-shop.de
mbwe.de
meet-the-proms.de
mempsych.de
merkel-wird-kanzlerin.de
messer-nippon-sanso.de
metapeter.de
metzens.de
mfbauer.de
mgv-luegde.de
mik-web.de
millerdesign.de
mitfahrtip.de
mittelerde-bereisen.de
mmap-erotik.de
mobbingkurs.de
mobiforum.de
moccanonym.de
moehrenwen.de
moewa-lug.de
molmed-freiburg.de
momo-franzi.de
monkeybusyness.de
montagehausbau.de
mortifer.de
mr-foetus.de
mrmusic-aktiv.de
mtp-systemhaus.de
muckels.de
muckraker.de
muetze-shop.de
muhkuhclan.de
mumble.de
murdog.de
musikalischertrichter.de
muwi-videofilm.de
mv-basic.de
my-dop.de
myzweitwohnsitz.de
nabu-wittmund.de
nadelshop.de
naturfaerber.de
navelview.de
net-billing.org
net-market.de
netzwerk-rosenrot.de
neue-profile.de
new-kazaa-skype.com
news-mittel.de
ninahecht.de
nisi-web.de
nitschke-wintergaerten.de
nivor.de
nt-normbau.de
oberweissbacher-berg-und-schwarzatalbahn.de
ohmegatzo.de
olympiatagebuch2008.de
orasis.de
osantorin.de
ottosauter.de
page-y.de
papierwaren-weihrauch.de
paradise4sims.de
parkchallenge.de
parkhotel-krone.de
partner.addmoon.de
partyserviceklein.de
patrizier-alpenland.de
patzkes-welt.de
pegasus-agentur.de
peine-regional.de
pentecostfire.de
pergermusic.de
personal-killaz.de
pferde-versi.de
pfingsttreffen06.de
pheidrias.de
phoenix-chemnitz.de
picdownloads.de
pique-gravur.de
pir-sultan.de
planet-elmi.de
planet-mauze.de
planungsgruppe-vor-ort.de
plateau-overknees.de
plm-competence-network.de
pollux-consult.de
privat-detektei.de
probaund.de
projekt-bibs.de
ps2-future.de
psychoring.de
pyromanica.de
qigong-info.de
racing-team-europe.de
raetsel-service.de
rainbow-sailing.de
rasende-highlander.de
raziemann.de
rdm-rlp.de
red-apel.de
regensburg-lokale.de
regionale-agenda.de
reichelt-netz.de
reisefuehrer-island.de
reiterhof-reitstall.de
reitsportzentrumbernburg.de
reizeitparkrobot.de
renegade-masters.de
rennerz.de
rettinger-familienstellen.de
rheinischeglanviehzuechter.de
rheinneckarhandwerk.de
rhoenrad-online.de
rhonda.rouvard.de
rhoola-campaign.de
richard-nowotny.de
rider-and-horse.de
ri-mini.de
rio-sambashow.de
rios-herzbeben.de
ritter-internship.de
rittervomhahn.de
rkb-deutschland.de
rk-tuebingen.de
robbies-mates.de
robian.de
robothomsen.de
roentgen-kelheim.de
roon-it.de
rosenschenke.de
roterloewe.de
rottweiler-blumental.de
rouvard.de
rszetel.de
rumpeltaenzchen.de
ryzomworld.de
sacred-planet.de
saechsische-bausanierung.de
sagt-ja-zu-freier-software.de
salon-maxwell.de
samba.info
sanae.de.vu
sar-el.de
saskiamodel.de
schach-jedesheim.de
schattennews.de
schausteller-schramm.de
schlafsehrgutbaby.de
schneiderrichterwerkstaetten.de
schoenberg-hexental.de
schoolofshotokankarate-do.org
schrottgala.de
schulterkongress2005.de
schura-frauenbeauftragte.de
schv-soerup.de
schweden-ferienhaus-ferienwohnung.de
schweriner-sv.de
schwimmbadbau-falkenberg.de
sc-langenhagen.de
scn-triathlon.de
secure.gwv-gmbh.de
seneca-grafics.de
sergej-suedwest.de
serienflash.de
sexblox.de
sgmarke.de
sgreat.de
sg-software.de
shanlog.de
sigrid-poehlmann.de
silvershadows.de
silver-shadows-germany.de
simtriplex.de
sing-vs.de
sinus-club.de
sir-robert.de
skar-ma.de
skate-bs.de
skate-the-allgaeu.de
skk-enterprise.de
slowholz.de
s-mart-germany.de
smshilfe.de
software.liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de
sonyericsson-t200.com
sounddriver.de
sourceport.de
sparmausshop.de
specta.de
spielsachenx.de
spitze-dessous.de
sportverein-stahlbau-dessau.de
squash-muenster.de
stabuenv.de
stallcasino.de
stapper-web.de
statt-wfb-denkwerkstatt.de
stefan-frasch.de
studentenrobot.de
suedwestlichebau-bg.de
supergroup-ttc.de
svamlgg.de
sv-info.de
swf-info.de
swingerclubs.brumm-gallery.de
syntixsounds.de
szphoenix.de
tattoofantasy.de
tauchen-kapstadt.de
team-carnevale.de
team-dlb.de
teamrev.de
team-synthetics.de
team-uef.de
technotika.de
tectrol.de
tg-muenden.de
tgsh.de
thegathering-film.de
thesoup.de
thewebcoders.de
thm-clan.de
thomassauer.de
tierheilpraxis-wickenberg.de
tiggilein.de
tinnitusportal.de
tokyotower.de
tom-schuster.de
toms-hawaii.de
toshibaer.de
touristik-hoffe.de
tsc-hope.de
tubestrike.de
turnego.de
tuxcomp.de
tweakchannel.de
ubvenus.de
ultraschall2004.de
umbraeon.de
umtstoene.de
umzugsberatung-berlin.de
undersuspicion.de
uni-konzentrat.de
united-boards-clan.de
uranmaschine.de
usc-muenchen-eishockey.de
vbiw.de
vcd-streifzuege.de
verbalink.org
verkaufsagent-soestshop.de
verlagernstprobst.de
verlaggroteskberlin.de
vhs-mengen.de
viaduktgartenbahn.de
viagra-pills.de
villaunserhaus.de
vivasalsashop.de
volumed.de
wahn-der-gedanken.de
wasserski.freddys-portal.de
wasserwacht-oberlahn.de
webbis-world.de
webdesign.inetcafewn.de
webworker23.de
weihnachtsmann-service-bremen.de
weingut.eppelmann.de
weltjugendtag-sachsen.de
werbung.me.uk
werbung.werbung.me.uk
wer-wie-was.biz
westukraine-gmbh.de
wetterzentraleforum.de
whirlpool-island.de
wiesbaden-fuer-olympia.de
willige-mona.de
wir-wissen-weiter.biz
wm-live-party.de
wng-punk.de
wohnungsanpassung-verbund.de
wohnwagenrobot.de
wundw-lemgo.de
xenos-marburg.de
xi42.de
x-innovum.de
x-men-movies.de
xp.ag
xxxtrem.de
yadogo.de
yburgsauna.de
yggdrasil-bonlanden.de
z211.de
zinkenheimer.de

and

bier-essing.de 213.131.228.70
bocd2000.de 213.131.228.70
easy-it-trade.de 213.131.228.70
fahrschule-in-franken.de 213.131.228.70
kh-roeder.de 213.131.228.70
kradtraining.de 213.131.228.70
lesben-dildos.de 213.131.228.70
max-und-moritz-shop.de 213.131.228.70
merkel-wird-kanzlerin.de 213.131.228.70
net-market.de 213.131.228.70
roentgen-kelheim.de 213.131.228.70
roterloewe.de 213.131.228.70
samba.info 213.131.228.70
viaduktgartenbahn.de 213.131.228.70
wiesbaden-fuer-olympia.de 213.131.228.70
alteseishaus.de 213.131.228.71
backpacker-berlin.de 213.131.228.71
baumaschinisten-service.de 213.131.228.71
blunk-event.de 213.131.228.71
bmg-bayern.de 213.131.228.71
btw2003.de 213.131.228.71
deuko2004.de 213.131.228.71
ei-essen.de 213.131.228.71
emily-holunder.de 213.131.228.71
f4faq.de 213.131.228.71
ferien-in-volksen.de 213.131.228.71
freizeit-in-sh.de 213.131.228.71
gratiserotikvideo.de 213.131.228.71
hochzeitstauben-oberbayern.de 213.131.228.71
hs-linux.de 213.131.228.71
ingenieurbuero-franken.de 213.131.228.71
ingo-russmann.de 213.131.228.71
itwaren.de 213.131.228.71
killianhomedesign.de 213.131.228.71
konnex-eiba.de 213.131.228.71
l-f-t.de 213.131.228.71
lua-nordbayern.de 213.131.228.71
malika-serviceleistungen.de 213.131.228.71
moewa-lug.de 213.131.228.71
murdog.de 213.131.228.71
navelview.de 213.131.228.71
planet-elmi.de 213.131.228.71
pyromanica.de 213.131.228.71
silver-shadows-germany.de 213.131.228.71
sonyericsson-t200.com 213.131.228.71
toms-hawaii.de 213.131.228.71
tubestrike.de 213.131.228.71
weihnachtsmann-service-bremen.de 213.131.228.71
whirlpool-island.de 213.131.228.71
bluehen-institut.de 213.131.228.72
derbrunner.de 213.131.228.72
erotik-manufaktur.de 213.131.228.72
f-s-q.de 213.131.228.72
gbo-leer.de 213.131.228.72
graurheindorf.de 213.131.228.72
grossyacht.liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de 213.131.228.72
hans-bruemmer.de 213.131.228.72
hochzeit-tauben-muenchen.de 213.131.228.72
homeyinc.de 213.131.228.72
institut-fuer-thr.de 213.131.228.72
izp-gmbh.de 213.131.228.72
karsten-mv.de 213.131.228.72
koelnerfotonews.de 213.131.228.72
liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de 213.131.228.72
little-hurrican-cattery.de 213.131.228.72
metapeter.de 213.131.228.72
planungsgruppe-vor-ort.de 213.131.228.72
regionale-agenda.de 213.131.228.72
rheinischeglanviehzuechter.de 213.131.228.72
schura-frauenbeauftragte.de 213.131.228.72
software.liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de 213.131.228.72
tauchen-kapstadt.de 213.131.228.72
usc-muenchen-eishockey.de 213.131.228.72
willige-mona.de 213.131.228.72
wundw-lemgo.de 213.131.228.72
3d-way.de 213.131.228.73
benhamburg.de 213.131.228.73
cevnet.de 213.131.228.73
check-the-sound.com 213.131.228.73
checkthesound.com 213.131.228.73
creativity.mempsych.de 213.131.228.73
die-dolzer-methode.de 213.131.228.73
domiphon.de 213.131.228.73
glaenzer-books.de 213.131.228.73
heinz-hummel.de 213.131.228.73
ijon-tichy.de 213.131.228.73
lackmeinauto.de 213.131.228.73
mempsych.de 213.131.228.73
raetsel-service.de 213.131.228.73
rettinger-familienstellen.de 213.131.228.73
rio-sambashow.de 213.131.228.73
saskiamodel.de 213.131.228.73
simtriplex.de 213.131.228.73
skk-enterprise.de 213.131.228.73
supergroup-ttc.de 213.131.228.73
carstnet.de 213.131.228.74
fettabbau-mit-goodlife2000.de 213.131.228.74
folkaufderbadeinsel.de 213.131.228.74
fritzer-pape.de 213.131.228.74
hirschgarten-raudies.de 213.131.228.74
infowave.de 213.131.228.74
kennzahlen-vergleiche.de 213.131.228.74
kent-depesche.de 213.131.228.74
net-billing.org 213.131.228.74
phoenix-chemnitz.de 213.131.228.74
planet-mauze.de 213.131.228.74
rios-herzbeben.de 213.131.228.74
sagt-ja-zu-freier-software.de 213.131.228.74
schweden-ferienhaus-ferienwohnung.de 213.131.228.74
team-dlb.de 213.131.228.74
umzugsberatung-berlin.de 213.131.228.74
united-boards-clan.de 213.131.228.74
wng-punk.de 213.131.228.74
addmoon.de 213.131.228.75
bruggi.de 213.131.228.75
ekklesiastikus.de 213.131.228.75
erfurt-weimar-jena.de 213.131.228.75
ferienfranken.de 213.131.228.75
jobuser.de 213.131.228.75
linkies.de 213.131.228.75
partner.addmoon.de 213.131.228.75
sacred-planet.de 213.131.228.75
skate-bs.de 213.131.228.75
skate-the-allgaeu.de 213.131.228.75
sourceport.de 213.131.228.75
thewebcoders.de 213.131.228.75
verkaufsagent-soestshop.de 213.131.228.75
1-a-fotograf.de 213.131.228.76
at-casting.de 213.131.228.76
be-spiegelt.de 213.131.228.76
bluetensturm.de 213.131.228.76
designteppich-schurwolle-dekostoff.de 213.131.228.76
eck-stein.de 213.131.228.76
ephesus-gmbh.de 213.131.228.76
federweise.de 213.131.228.76
finanzmarkt2004.de 213.131.228.76
fotos.bindow-online.de 213.131.228.76
hans-wallow.de 213.131.228.76
harztourservice.de 213.131.228.76
hsd-community.de 213.131.228.76
jamierenae.de 213.131.228.76
mamasu.de 213.131.228.76
mtp-systemhaus.de 213.131.228.76
nabu-wittmund.de 213.131.228.76
pique-gravur.de 213.131.228.76
ps2-future.de 213.131.228.76
robbies-mates.de 213.131.228.76
westukraine-gmbh.de 213.131.228.76
wetterzentraleforum.de 213.131.228.76
xi42.de 213.131.228.76
amv-chater.de 213.131.228.77
cyberwyb.de 213.131.228.77
fanstorys.de 213.131.228.77
gesamtschule-beelitz.de 213.131.228.77
interbase2000.de 213.131.228.77
khinternet.de 213.131.228.77
mittelerde-bereisen.de 213.131.228.77
raziemann.de 213.131.228.77
rider-and-horse.de 213.131.228.77
ri-mini.de 213.131.228.77
rszetel.de 213.131.228.77
thesoup.de 213.131.228.77
vcd-streifzuege.de 213.131.228.77
yggdrasil-bonlanden.de 213.131.228.77
100000logos.de 213.131.228.78
aufbruch-partei.de 213.131.228.78
chemische-wartungsprodukte.de 213.131.228.78
dietheorie.de 213.131.228.78
dreamgirlsrevue.de 213.131.228.78
einbruchspraevention.de 213.131.228.78
freddys-portal.de 213.131.228.78
galeriebrhel.de 213.131.228.78
jobvermittlung123.de 213.131.228.78
leonhardt-lyrik.de 213.131.228.78
mamamia-bayreuth.de 213.131.228.78
marktoberdorf-therapeutikum.de 213.131.228.78
massagesessel-shop.de 213.131.228.78
montagehausbau.de 213.131.228.78
schausteller-schramm.de 213.131.228.78
sexblox.de 213.131.228.78
specta.de 213.131.228.78

Bye, Tim.

--
http://wikipedistik.de


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Jeff Raymond

subject: [WikiEN-l] a few new wrinkles in the external link issue

body:
David Gerard wrote:

> Because there were enough MySpace blogs in particular being used as
> spam links to be a discernible individual problem, with no known cases
> where they were the right link and just the MySpace page itself
> wasn't.

There are enough external links being used as spam links to warrant the
same thing.  I'm still not buying it.
>
> What actual (non-hypothetical examples) do you have where the blog is
> an apposite link rather than the MySpace page itself?

I can't give anything but hypotheticals, but the idea that MySpace blogs
can't be useful as primary sources for their subjects is crazy.

-Jeff

>
>
> - d.
>
>
>

--
Name: Jeff Raymond
E-mail: jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com
WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com
IM: badlydrawnjeff
Quote: "As the hobbits are going up Mount Doom, the
	Eye of Mordor is being drawn somewhere else."
	- Sen. Rick Santorum on the war in Iraq.


from_name: Pedro Sanchez

body:
> So because most blogs aren't useful, we'll simply assume they all
> aren't.  Hey, most websites aren't useful, either, why not disable all
> external linking altogether?
>
> -Jeff

What a GREAT idea, jeff :)


body:
On 1/22/07, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com> wrote:
> It's very annoying to have to remember to hit "reply to all."  Can list
> admins fix this, please?
>
>
>
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
> >> 1) If we're going to blindly attach "nofollow" to all the external
> >> links, why are we allowing Wikia links to be propped up artificially?
> >> Are we in the business of conflict of interest now?
> >
> > Looks like Wikia is treated as an interwiki link, which assumes it's
> > part of the same project. I'd report it as a bug, if I were you.
> >
>
> I'm hoping that the nofollow is temporary/abandoned in that time.
>
> > MySpace blogs are never a reliable source for anything other than a
> > MySpace blog, and they are virtually never notable, so I don't see a
> > problem.
>
> This will be the last time I repeat it here to save people's inboxes -
> "virtually never" doesn't mean we ignore the "sometimes," especially on
> the technical side.
> >
> >> 3) Did you folks know we have a bot that reverts links that are
> >> arbitrarily considered spam?  I didn't until today.
> >> [[User:Shadowbot1]].  I convinced him to post the blacklist where we
> >> could see it, and while some (most?) are useful, others are pretty
> >> screwy, and I'm not sure this is helpful in the long run.
> >
> > I knew, but I've never looked at the blacklist. I've just trusted
> > it... was I wrong to?
>
> Trust but verify, at the least.
>
> > I don't think there is much if any collateral damage from our
> > anti-spam efforts. I can remember one problem with ShadowBot removing
> > a link that it shouldn't have, and I think it was resolved by fixing
> > the blacklist (I don't remember exactly, I wasn't actually involved to
> > a great extent).
>
> Between the heavy-handed use of G11, having a blacklist BOT,
> blacklisting an arbitrary blog site on the blacklist, I think there's a
> lot more collateral damage than we're owning up to.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> --
> Name: Jeff Raymond
> E-mail: jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com
> WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com
> IM: badlydrawnjeff
> Quote: "As the hobbits are going up Mount Doom, the
>         Eye of Mordor is being drawn somewhere else."
>         - Sen. Rick Santorum on the war in Iraq.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

Jeff, I'm surprised that a process follower like you complain about
the bot, that was approved  via the usual channels , got consensus,
and thus approved.

Process was followed, don't you tell me that process isn't always good
and thus should be ignored. How is that possible jeff??


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Some paths toward communication improvements

body:
Florence Devouard wrote:
> The Foundation is pleased to announce the addition of Sandra Ordonez as
> Communications Manager. Sandy is a public relations specialist living in
> Tampa, Florida, with prior experience in for-profit and non-profit
> organizations. Her role will include press relations, written and oral
> communications, and various other assignments. We are fortunate to have
> had Sandy approach us about a position, and we are excited to have her
> start working in the office. Please say hello if you run into her online
> (her wiki and irc name is "wiki blue") and welcome her to the community.
>
> Florence Devouard
> Chair of Wikimedia Foundation

First, hi Sandra (or Sandy, or Wiki Blue),

Communication is a area of work where you will have to be working hand
in hand with community members. So I thought a good way to get in touch
with them all was to outline a few things on this list. This way, they
can complete the picture as necessary :-)

The mailing lists you need to be on are
* Foundation-l (this one. Public list - do not put any thing
confidential here). You need to register yourself
* Internal-l (private list but archived. You need to register but one of
the list admin will have to approve you)
* Wmfcc-l list (private list of the communication committee. You need to
register, but one of the list admin will have to approve you).

Overview of lists here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/overview
(you may of course wish to register other lists)

Wikis on which you may need to have an account
* meta.wikimedia.org (entirely open)
* internal.wikimedia.org (I recommand you bug Angela, Dungodung or
Delphine to get an account)
* comcom.wikimedia.org (bug Michael Snow to have an account)
* Wikimediafoundation.org (bug Michael Snow to have an account)
* OfficeWikimedia.org (bug Brad)

That should do for a start.

Also try to get a skype account as soon as possible so that we do not
drain Foundation resources in phone.

Meta is very largely outdated sometimes. Do not fully trust information
over there :-)
Office wiki is fairly new, so hopefully not outdated yet.

------

Here is the page about the
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications_committee

As you may see, it seems the last meeting was quite a while ago. I would
recommand that a new meeting is organised soon :-)
The chair of that committee is Michael Snow.

The committee is very active in some areas, very inactive in other
areas. I would say it largely would require new members to join, or an
active communication process with regards to its activity.

That committee has been divided in several areas
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications_subcommittees

------

The first group is the one dealing directly with the press, and in
charge of press releases. What happens right now is that many many more
people than these ones are answering the press, this group being rather
the one dealing with english speaking press, or possibly german press.
What really happens is that many editors in various countries also deal
with the press. In several europeans countries, we also have local
associations (generally referred to as Wikimedia NameOfCountry, eg,
Wikimedia France). In many cases, members of an association deal with
the press (but this is not mandatory).
I am not certain communication is always good between the different
languages subgroups answering the press, but overall, we handle things.
There are some languages where we have troubles keeping up with the pace
of press requests, and I think press needs to be educated and dealt with
differently (perhaps with more press release. Clarification of various
FAQ etc...).
Another issue is press releases. We have more and more pain drafting
them. And the last 3-4 press releases were never send to the press.
There is a system used by german association (see Akl - Arne Klempert
about that) to send them semi-automatically, but few take the time to do
it and/or the press database seems to be outdated. Or whatever. But the
result is that press releases are NOT send. There is work to do here.

Within this group, Mathias (presroi) makes a fabulous job keeping us
informed on the publication of various press articles which may be
relevant to the activity of the committee (mostly english and german
press. Aphaia often completes in japanese). Typical outcome is to be
aware of potential PR bombs and react between wrong assumptions
disseminate in the whole internet.

David Gerard is the main person taking charge of the british press
requests and does it very well.

-------

Translation

Our goddess here is Aphaia. To know more about how translations are
handled (whether public announcements or internal communication), get in
touch with her.

-------

OTRS

Is our ticketing system. Nearly all emails we get goes there and can be
handled by dozen of volunteers. OTRS is a rather special world. Very
invisible, but populated by many volunteers who do a critical work.
Issues are classified in various queues (such as "donation", "legal",
"press" etc...).
You need to join that place. Your contact there can be Kat (mindspillage
- also a board member) or I strongly suggest UninvitedCompany.
OTRS can also be a real nightmare, as emails pile up at an amazing rate....

--------

Internal communication

A lot of the internal communication is done through Wikizine (Walter
publication - contact him) and through the SignPost (a very good
newspaper on the english wikipedia). See with Flcelloguy or Michael Snow
the foundator of the paper.
Other internal communication go through the list, meta or
wikimediafoundation website.
There have been suggestion for the foundation to communicate more
through the SignPost.
As for the Wikizine, Walter keeps very good track of what is written
everywhere.

--------

Marketing, promotional material

Elian is historically our most active person in the area, so I suggest
you contact her as she may be the most knowledgeable person in this
area. But many others are also working on this, and might just contact
you on these issues.
Akl is the CEO of the german chapter

--------

Uh, not listed here, but a big new area is probably handling of a
volunteers dababase for conferences/speech. This is however controversial.

--------

For all non-confidential communication issues, it is best to work on
meta (public wiki), where editors from all countries can help. Only
confidential issues (such as for example a press release) should be done
on private wikis.

There are many people involved in communication issues, and I guess we
are all happy to benefit from your expertise. A very important point is
that for most communication issues, it is important to maintain a link
between the foundation and the community. Do not hesitate to discuss
here (do not mind the trolls) or on meta, and to make calls for
participation and support from editors.

My main concerns with regards to communication are these ones right now

* We have troubles handling the huge demands of the press. Not only the
USA press.  We can not keep up properly with the requests. We need to
channel these requests. To go beyond simply answering requests one after
the other and hoping the flow will drop sometimes

* We need to communicate better on what we are and what we do. Stop the
confusion with various commercial websites. Get it known we are a non
profit. Which may involve press release, clarification of foundation
website. FAQ. Publishing the annual report etc...

* Improve the internal communication (community). I think we now provide
quite a lot of information, but only a limited number of people find
it... Does that require working more with wikizine ? More with SignPost
? More translations ? More meetings ? A collective blog ? A weekly
podcast ? We need to be creative here :-)

Here are some of my thoughts.
Start with joining the lists and the various wikis I suggested above.
Once you are on internal, you'll get all the emails necessary to contact
all the poeple mentionned above.

Comments from editors very warmly welcome.

Sandy, we try to make an irc/skype meeting end of the week.

Cheers

Anthere


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Guettarda

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Citizendium trying out not being a fork of Wikipedia
	for a while

body:
On 1/19/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 19/01/07, Steve Block <steve.block at myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
> > Still, not really a huge amount of sense discussing citizendium here.
>
>
> It's a relevant and interesting related project, so is relevant to
> discuss insofar as it informs what Wikipedia does and how it does it.

Looking through the Citizendium forum is interesting
http://forum.citizendium.org/

I took a good look at them this weekend and tried to figure out what they
were about, and how they saw themselves from being different to us.  There
appear to be two key elements of CZ that distinguishes it from WP - approved
versions (your edits don't show up until they are approved) and expert
approval (that you need to be a subject-matter expert, a so-called "Editor"
in order to approve a version).

Neither of these ideas are new, of course.  Anyone who has hung around this
list long enough has heard the discussion of "approved versions" - the idea
that an established Wikipedian would approve any article as "non-vandalised"
before the edits actually show up.  It's one of these perennial issues like
single logins across projects.  There are a lot of people here who want to
see "stable versions" of articles showing up eventually.

The issue of expert approval has also been floated at various points.  Of
course I have never seen a clear definition of an expert around here
(whether I agree with his definition or not, at least Larry came up with
one).  It has some value - it guarantees you that the version you are
looking at has been fact-checked, etc. (Would approved CZ articles meet
WP:RS?  I'm guessing that they would.)  It seems like a good idea...until
you start thinking about the mechanisms of it all.

Expert approval doesn't scale.  Getting an article up to the level where you
want to put your name on it as "approved" takes a lot of work.  Even if you
aren't writing it, just fact-checking it, it's still a substantial
investment.  If you just shoot for 100,000 articles, it would still take a
team of a few hundred people a year or more to do that.  But writing is the
easy part.  Having a set of articles to babysit, and having to look over
them regularly to approve changes, is a huge undertaking.  How many could a
person really shepherd?  How do you convince experts, people with advanced
degrees, to dedicate this much time to the project?  On the other hand, how
are you going to convince people to edit articles if their changes aren't
going to show up for a couple months?

One of the fears I have seen in the CZ forum is the idea that WP could just
"steal" content (one reason suggested for cc-by-nc-sa).  Others people have
said (with a contempt for WP that I have seen often) that even if we did
copy their articles, they would rapidly be "degraded" the way Wikipedia
articles are.  The interesting thing is that having CZ articles on WP could
have exactly the opposite effect.  People aren't going to edit articles if
their changes don't show up for months, which suggests that CZ articles will
never get the number of edits - minor fixes, etc. - that WP articles get.
They will also never be as up-to-date.  It seems to me that it would be far
smarter for them to try to get their versions of articles into WP, where
they would be exposed to the sort of drive-by editing which both degrades
articles and makes them great.  As a CZ editor, all you'd need to do is drop
by from time to time, look at the changes made by the hoi polloi, and
determine which ones you want to keep and which ones you don't.

Not that it matters to me.  I'd like to see some sort of approved, stable
version of WP articles available (whether it's the first thing people see,
or it's an obvious link near the top ofthe page), but the more we fence
things off, the more we loose the free copy-editing by people who actually
read articles.

Ian


from_name: Dirk Riehle

subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext

body:
It seems unrealistic to me to get try to get the full MediaWiki syntax
represented in EBNF---too many grammar issues outside its abilities.

If I were you, I would start with an agreed upon subset. We had a
session on this at WikiSym 2006 which lead to Wiki Creole, see
www.wikicreole.org (Please note Brion was there.)

I think you might want to sync up with the Wiki Creole people, which
are C Sauer and C Smith jointly with several leading wiki engine
implementers.

Also, wikitech-l/research-l or wiki-standards/wiki-research seem
better places for discussing this.

Finally, I hope you'll submit your results to WikiSym www.wikisym.org.
We are all in desparate need of a good grammar and semantics
definition.

Dirk

On 1/22/07, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Virgil Ierubino wrote:
> [fixed URL]
> > I'm working on writing out an EBNF description of Wikitext at
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikitext_Metasyntax , which I hear is much
> > needed, but have encountered a snag. I don't think EBNF has the power to
> > describe Wikitext. If anyone here can work out how EBNF can describe
> > Wikitext's system for bullet points, I'd like to see it. The problem is that
> > bullet points can build on each other, except each new level has to retain
> > the markup from the old level, plus a new symbol. e.g. **#* then **#* * then
> > **#** * then **#*** # etc.
> >
>
> If you can find an EBNF description of HTML, it would be a good place to
> start; in my experience, MediaWiki's Wikitext syntax is (mostly)
> directly translatable to HTML (eg. links turn into anchors, bullets turn
> into list items).
>
> > On the topic of "things that need to be done" if writing an EBNF of Wikitext
> > isn't going to be beneficial for MediaWiki's longstanding success, I'll not
> > bother, but is there anything that needs to be done like this to create a
> > standard?
> >
>
> It /might/ be useful if you wanted to import/export between different
> wiki engines that use different syntax - IIRC the MediaWiki syntax is
> (fairly) similar to that of UseModWiki (Phase 1), but vastly different
> to that of eg. DocuWiki. However, I wouldn't rate it very high on the
> priority list.
>
> --
> Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
> "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
> Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>


subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] In defence of Google

body:
Ray Saintonge schreef:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>
>> Anthony schreef:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Don't take my word for it. Read up on what Brewster Kahle from
>>>
>>> Internet Archive had to say about Google Book Search, or find out more
>>> about the Open Content Alliance he co-founded largely to respond to
>>> it.  "They don't want the books to appear in anyone else's search
>>> engine but their own, which is a little peculiar for a company that
>>> says its mission is to make information universally accessible," Kahle
>>> said.
>>>
>>> "Google, for instance, is digitizing some great libraries. But their
>>> contracts (which were actually secret contracts with libraries ? which
>>> is bizarre, but anyway, they were secret until they got sued out of
>>> them by some governments) are under such restrictions that they're
>>> pretty useless... the copies that go back to the libraries. Pretty
>>> much Google is trying to set themselves up as the only place to get to
>>> these materials; the only library; the only access. The idea of having
>>> only one company control the library of human knowledge is a
>>> nightmare. I mean this is 1984 ? a book about how bad the world would
>>> be if this really came about, if a few governments' control and
>>> corporations' control on information goes too far."
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to choose sides on this one, and I'm
>>> going with Kahle, not with Google.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I have read enough to learn why Google is getting the opposition to its
>> program. I agree with that opposition. However, you will also have read
>> that Bruster Kahle acknowledges that his project is very much a reaction
>> to the Google project. The opposition that exists is not unlikely to
>> have Google to reconsider its position. When we consider Google a
>> friend, we can as a friend discuss these issues. When we consider Google
>> an enemy, we will not even try to engage in a conversation.
>>
>> I object to see enemies everywhere, I prefer to see friends that have a
>> different outlook, friends that may be convinced to consider an other
>> approach. I think this approach is more productive.
>>
>>
> While I understand that we must find accomodation with Google, it would
> be naive to give them our complete trust.  We don't know if their deals
> with the libraries are exclusive ones that would prevent anyone else
> from doing the same thing.  For now, database protection laws are
> limited to Eueope, but if they were to be adopted in the United States
> they would be give a tremendous advantage to Google which could then
> develop a user pay system for which only they are capable of providing
> convenient access.  The major future problems will not be with the
> publishers who are currently in court with Google.  Control of the old
> material whose copyright has already expired will make for a far more
> important battle.  For now I don't think we have the funding or
> organization to challenge them, certainly not by ourselves.  Whether
> that level of collaboration can coallesce among a wide range of open
> access supporters is unclear.
>
> Ec
Hoi,
When PD material scanned in the University of Harvard is digitised, it
is still PD material. This means that there is no reason why the same
book from the University of Amsterdam or where ever cannot be digitised
with the same sterling results. The biggest advantage that Google has is
first mover advantage. This can be quite crucial. However, when Google
were to charge for access to this data, the back lash would be
sufficient to invigorate all the other projects aiming to digitise
content and kill off much of the good will that many people have for
Google. This is something I think they do not need explained.

I am positive that when there is a manifest need for making the books
Free because of Google making it not available for Free to the public,
the money and the will available to challenge Google will be sufficient
to seriously harm Google in its reach. This will not stop at books, it
will include search  Remember who the person of the year 2006 is..

When a peer to peer search system becomes available, it is particularly
the organisations that currently pay Google for their adverts that will
have an interest in sharing some of their storage and bandwidth. The
question would then be how to factor that in the search results; one way
would be to make sure that their stuff is ALWAYS up to date..

Thanks,
     GerardM


subject: [Foundation-l] In defence of Google


from_name: Jeff V. Merkey

subject: [Foundation-l] WikiGadugi Wikipedia Rating???

body:
geni wrote:

>On 1/22/07, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>geni wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 1/22/07, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Then Wikipedia in its dumps must IDENTIFY AT LEAST FIVE AUTHORS AUTHORS
>>>>since I have no crystal ball as to who wrote what.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>This is why most people link back to the article on wikipedia or to
>>>the article's history on wikipedia.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>In this case, Wikimedia is violating the GFDL by failing to publish
>>>>authors along with content.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I suspect that can be found in:
>>>
>>>stub-meta-history.xml.gz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>ok then. I'll post an en: link back to wikipedia for each article by
>>writing a program that will tag the xml for each article and
>>create the en: link.
>>
>>What else is required to get wikigadugi of the BAD WEBSITES list.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>
>Need to make sure that all images correctly state their copyright
>status (you appear to have lost some GFDL tags and the like somewhere)
>and need include a more prominent link to the GFDL.
>
>
>
>
ok. I will try to get this all dne this week. after I do this, please
remove wikigadugi from the BAD WEBSITES list.

Thanks

Jeff


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext

body:
On 1/22/07, Virgil Ierubino <virgil.ierubino at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/22/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Personally, I'm intrigued. Virgil, could you elaborate on the purpose
> > of this project? In what ways can it help us (and who exactly is the
> > 'us' in this case :))?
>
> As explained already, an EBNF of Wikitext will allow for expansion of
> Wikitext easily as it's conforming to a standard, and a more efficient
> parser, etc. I'm not the expert in WHY it's good though, I just know it is.
> And I know how to write EBNFs, and I can't work out how to code Wikitext's
> bullet points in EBNF - if EBNF can't handle Wikitext, then the efficient
> parsing and expansion won't be possible (as easily).
>
> Would very much appreciate help from anyone clued up as to how to proceed if
> Wikitext can't be EBNFed, or who can show me that it, in fact, can.

It's been tried long before - see the "flexbisonparse" directory in
the MediaWiki SVN. It was half-way but got stuck on nested HTML tags,
IIRC.

Magnus


subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Development of a Metadata/Cross-Indexing System

body:
On 1/21/07, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/21/07, Henry Skelton <dimensiondude.oss at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm interested in helping out in the development of mediawiki. I
> > think it's very good, but one that seems missing is a good system for
> > metadata and cross indexing information.
> >
> > That might not be the best way to put it. As I see it, an article
> > would include more than just the text of the article. It would have a
> > summary (possible present on the page), and also metadata (like the
> > classification for an organism). e.g., on an article for a family of
> > turtles, say Chelydridae,  you might want to list all of the genuses.
> > Instead of searching and hoping you have them all, then copy/pasting
> > or making your own summaries, you could just do something like
> >
> > [[wikipedia searchForArticlesWithTags:genus,family=Testudinidae]
> > listData:scientificname,commonname,conservationstatus]
> >
> > This would then automatically get all of those genuses, with the
> > information specified, and would update if anything changed or new
> > ones were added. You could also automatically grab summaries, which
> > are quite common [someArticle getSummary].
> >
> > Something like this could also keep data in sync. I've seen several
> > instances of conflicting information between an article, and a small
> > summary in another article.
> >
> > Is there something like this in progress? I'd like to help, but I'd
> > like to avoid duplicating effort on something someone is already
> > working on. I know how to program, and know a small amount of PHP.
>
> The major issue here tends to be optimization.  Semantic MediaWiki
> more or less has what you're looking for, but as I understand it, it
> scales far too poorly to be used for a site like Wikipedia.  Category
> intersection is a more specific much less ambitious thing to do, and
> there appears to be some progress in that direction right now,
> although it's not necessarily ready for prime time.
>
> But for the overall idea of what you posted, well, that strikes me as
> basically like allowing anyone to run arbitrary SELECT queries.  You
> just can't do that with a database Wikipedia's size.

I once posted the idea (which, of course, was ignored;-) to store the
names and values of variables passed to templates from articles in a
SQL table. If you write {{xyz|a=1|b=2}} in article BLA and save, it
would store
BLA | xyz | a | 1
BLA | xyz | b | 2
in said table. Applied to {{Persondata}} [1], you could search for a
specific birth date, or for "%January%1980%" to find people born in
January 1980, which you can not do with the current category system,
even with intersections, AFAIK.

Given the amount of data we put in navboxes via templates, this is a
vast repository of unharvested metadata, IMHO.

Magnus

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persondata


subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext

body:
Hoi,
When this provides a better result than our current wikisyntax when it
comes to internationalisation there might be something to it. As you may
know the use of two quotes to indicate italics breaks the usage of these
same two quotes in languages like Neapolitan.

When it provides this better result, there might be something to it.
Otherwise to me it is a hopeless "see how clever we are" exercise never
mind how "standard" it is. A standard that does not take
internationalisation seriously is useless in an international
environment like the Wikimedia projects.

Thanks,
    GerardM

David Strauss schreef:
> Despite how ugly (E)BNF may be, it's the standard format for defining
> the syntax of most prominent computer languages. It had the additional
> benefit of automatic conversion (via Bison or a similar program) into a
> native parser.
>
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> What the f* is an EBNF .. It does not help that you URL is wrong. Being
>> clever (ahum) I found Extended Backus?Naur form.. A question, do you
>> really think that an average Wiki editor will NOT get hopelessly
>> confused and get it hopelessly wrong as well?
>>
>> Personally I find it horribly ugly as well
>>
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikitext_Metasyntax
>>
>>
>> Virgil Ierubino schreef:
>>
>>> I'm working on writing out an EBNF description of Wikitext at
>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wikiWikitext_Metasyntax , which I hear is much
>>> needed, but have encountered a snag. I don't think EBNF has the power to
>>> describe Wikitext. If anyone here can work out how EBNF can describe
>>> Wikitext's system for bullet points, I'd like to see it. The problem is that
>>> bullet points can build on each other, except each new level has to retain
>>> the markup from the old level, plus a new symbol. e.g. **#* then **#* * then
>>> **#** * then **#*** # etc.
>>>
>>> On the topic of "things that need to be done" if writing an EBNF of Wikitext
>>> isn't going to be beneficial for MediaWiki's longstanding success, I'll not
>>> bother, but is there anything that needs to be done like this to create a
>>> standard?
>>>
>>> Please forward to any other mailing lists in which this might be
>>> appropriate. Thanks!


subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext


subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext

body:
On 1/22/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> When this provides a better result than our current wikisyntax when it
> comes to internationalisation there might be something to it. As you may
> know the use of two quotes to indicate italics breaks the usage of these
> same two quotes in languages like Neapolitan.
>
> When it provides this better result, there might be something to it.
> Otherwise to me it is a hopeless "see how clever we are" exercise never
> mind how "standard" it is. A standard that does not take
> internationalisation seriously is useless in an international
> environment like the Wikimedia projects.

EBNF is not a replacement for or variation of wikisyntax. It's a
different approach for a parser that understands the /current/
wikisyntax. That would
* clean up the mess that is the current parser
* allow the parser to be generated from EBNF automatically in
C/C++/C#/Perl/whatever
* ease generation of different output formats, such as XML (or PDF or
docbook or...)
* avoid most of those little implementation bugs that come with manual
parser writing

Magnus


subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext


references:
<45B43623.4070909@internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<a4359dff0701220321h3723016dpbb2d79a05c6165df@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B4B0EA.7070604@internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<9ac45b70701220624r4b17407cu1d2bf97863fb44d9@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Pedro Sanchez wrote:
> On 1/22/07, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com>
> wrote:
>> It's very annoying to have to remember to hit "reply to all."  Can list
>> admins fix this, please?

> Jeff, I'm surprised that a process follower like you complain about
> the bot, that was approved  via the usual channels , got consensus,
> and thus approved.
>
> Process was followed, don't you tell me that process isn't always good
> and thus should be ignored. How is that possible jeff??

I don't recall complaining about the bot process.  In any regard, I don't
think complaints after the fact, after seeing said bot in action, are bad
things, and perhaps, if discussion with the bot operator isn't fruitful,
the next step in the process can be pursued.

There's plenty of processes we have that I absolutely abhor.  It doesn't
mean I'm not going to follow them until the rest of you come to your
senses. d:-D

-Jeff


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] In the news...

body:
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
> A slightly creepy loner who has been frightening women in his
> neighbourhood by hanging around their houses and trying to talk to
> them about military history and Star Wars has been ordered by a judge
> to serve his community service on Wikipedia.
>
Hee hee. I didn't actually realize it was a spoof until I saw some of
the other headlines... too ready to believe that my fellow editors are
all freaks I suppose... :-)

Stan


from_name: GerardM

subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext

body:
Hoi,
Your do not address my main question; is this thing Internationalisation
proof. I care little for something that brings new and or other
incompatibilities. Bringing technical advantages does not necessarily make
it work well in the real world and our real world is multi-linguistic.

PS I do understand why something like EBNF is useful from a TECHNICAL point
of view.

Thanks,
     GerardM

On 1/22/07, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/22/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > When this provides a better result than our current wikisyntax when it
> > comes to internationalisation there might be something to it. As you may
> > know the use of two quotes to indicate italics breaks the usage of these
> > same two quotes in languages like Neapolitan.
> >
> > When it provides this better result, there might be something to it.
> > Otherwise to me it is a hopeless "see how clever we are" exercise never
> > mind how "standard" it is. A standard that does not take
> > internationalisation seriously is useless in an international
> > environment like the Wikimedia projects.
>
> EBNF is not a replacement for or variation of wikisyntax. It's a
> different approach for a parser that understands the /current/
> wikisyntax. That would
> * clean up the mess that is the current parser
> * allow the parser to be generated from EBNF automatically in
> C/C++/C#/Perl/whatever
> * ease generation of different output formats, such as XML (or PDF or
> docbook or...)
> * avoid most of those little implementation bugs that come with manual
> parser writing
>
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] EBNF of Wikitext


subject:
[Foundation-l] [Announcement] Welcome to our new Communication
	Manager

body:
Hoi,
I hope you will have tons of fun, there are many great people to enjoy in
our world and outside.

I hope you like cats :)

Thanks,
    GerardM

On 1/22/07, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Florence Devouard wrote:
> > The Foundation is pleased to announce the addition of Sandra Ordonez as
> > Communications Manager. Sandy is a public relations specialist living in
> > Tampa, Florida, with prior experience in for-profit and non-profit
> > organizations. Her role will include press relations, written and oral
> > communications, and various other assignments. We are fortunate to have
> > had Sandy approach us about a position, and we are excited to have her
> > start working in the office. Please say hello if you run into her online
> > (her wiki and irc name is "wiki blue") and welcome her to the community.
>
> Welcome aboard, Sandy!
>
> - -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFFtHuTwRnhpk1wk44RAiUoAKDHhYECQNgqUtZO2v+njL8hP311sACgsHwf
> cYw3ev6tlwYAvy+HWmVWAGE=
> =P/vp
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Gatto Nero

body:
2007/1/22, Florence Devouard <anthere a anthere.org>:
> The Foundation is pleased to announce the addition of Sandra Ordonez as
> Communications Manager. [...] Please say hello if you run into her online
> (her wiki and irc name is "wiki blue") and welcome her to the community.

Hi Sandy, welcome in our world.
Communication has been a *very, very, very* big issue in the past
days, here on wiki-.
I'm sure you're gonna handling it perfectly.
What I can ask you - talking about internal communication - is to
inform the communities of everything possible going on wiki.
This should be a great improvement.

Good work, Sandy!


body:
2007/1/22, Florence Devouard <anthere at anthere.org>:
> The Foundation is pleased to announce the addition of Sandra Ordonez as
> Communications Manager. [...] Please say hello if you run into her online
> (her wiki and irc name is "wiki blue") and welcome her to the community.

Hi Sandy, welcome in our world.
Communication has been a *very, very, very* big issue in the past
days, here on wiki-.
I'm sure you're gonna handling it perfectly.
What I can ask you - talking about internal communication - is to
inform the communities of everything possible going on wiki.
This should be a great improvement.

Good work, Sandy!


from_name: Jim Hu

body:
I'm thinking of starting work on a box content editor that would have
an edit link that opens a forms-based editor where the content of the
form fields are stored in a parallel mysql database.  The idea is not
at all fleshed out, but I'm wondering if it fits with this general
topic...and if so do people here have thoughts about the idea.

I'm planning to make this work for specific content boxes in a wiki
I'm running, where we'd like structured content from users as well as
freetext.  The basic idea so far is to delimit the boxes of interest
with some kind of tag, use that to pull the box in question out of
the page text using a regex, and replace it with the updated content
generated by a forms page.  Has this already been done?

A potential side benefit is to make tables and boxes easier to
populate for new users who are intimidated by the wiki markup in
those areas, which tends to be a bit more complex than elsewhere on
the pages.

Jim Hu

On Jan 22, 2007, at 8:38 AM, Rob Church wrote:

> On 22/01/07, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> I once posted the idea (which, of course, was ignored;-) to store the
>> names and values of variables passed to templates from articles in a
>> SQL table. If you write {{xyz|a=1|b=2}} in article BLA and save, it
>
> I had something along the same lines checked into an experimental
> branch; the user would insert metadata tags, and these would be dealt
> with in a similar manner to link updates:
>
> [[Metadata:People|birth=1980]] etc.
>
> It works on a "subject", "name" and "value" triplet concept - subjects
> group similar pieces of data, the name and value are self-evident.
> This was adapted from an idea Zocky had on IRC, which I hastily
> implemented.
>
> It's in the repo, but incomplete - likely missing the upgraders and
> table definitions, and there's no interface for directly manipulating
> data outside of pages, nor any way of querying it at present.
>
>
> Rob Church
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

=====================================
Jim Hu
Associate Professor
Dept. of Biochemistry and Biophysics
2128 TAMU
Texas A&M Univ.
College Station, TX 77843-2128
979-862-4054


from_name: Ilmari Karonen

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Citizendium trying out not being a fork of Wikipedia
 for a while

body:
Anthony wrote:
> CC-by-NC isn't a copyleft license, so the compatibility would be
> really strange.  A derivative of a GFDL article (which wasn't an
> aggregate) would have to be GFDL.  But a derivative of a CC-by-NC
> article doesn't have to be CC-by-NC.  However, the original work would
> still be under CC-by-NC, so unless the original authors gave [you]
> other permissions, you'd still have to follow CC-by-NC for any
> derivatives.  As for a work entirely released under *both* GFDL *and*
> CC-by-NC, that'd be kind of cool.  You could use the work under the
> GFDL, complete with all its obnoxious requirements, *or* you could use
> the work under CC-by-NC, without all the GFDL's obnoxious
> requirements, but only if you do so for noncommercial purposes.

...or you could just go with CC-By-SA, which _is_ a copyleft license,
but not nearly as obnoxious as the GFDL.

--
Ilmari Karonen


references:
<45B43623.4070909@internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<a4359dff0701220321h3723016dpbb2d79a05c6165df@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B4B0EA.7070604@internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<9ac45b70701220624r4b17407cu1d2bf97863fb44d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4624.69.21.252.114.1169477001.squirrel@www.internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<9ac45b70701220731l47b47942r669ce6649bdc3b3@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Pedro Sanchez wrote:

> Except, that in order to get approved, bots must go on a trial period
> so we can evaluate what and how it does. I believe the consensus on
> those who got involved was that the bot was good.

Of course, [[WP:CCC|consensus can change]].  Not a lot of people pay
attention to the bot approval process, and if people see the bot not
working the way it's expected or in a way they like, that might have to be
dealt with.  There was next to no discussion regarding Shadowbot1, for
example.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves.

-Jeff

--
If you can read this, I'm not at home.


from_name: Roman Nosov

subject: [Wikitech-l] New mediawiki diff and blamemap extension is live

body:
Well spotted Nick! To be honest the fact that mediawiki allows quotes
in usernames caught me by surprise. Well few extra htmlspecialchars
fixed that.  I've also fixed HTML so now it validates by the W3C
validator.

Best regards
Roman

On 22/01/07, Nick Jenkins <nickpj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello everyone
> >
> > Back in the summer I did a small demo
> > http://217.147.83.36:9000/history::171=170 that allowed tracking
> > contributions. It was quite slow and UTF-8 incompatible.
> > So I'm pleased to announce that after some optimization and rewriting
> > it in C I've managed to implement UTF-8 support and substantially
> > increase performance. At the moment it is several times faster than
> > current wikidiff2 extension (C++ version) and has peak throughput of
> > around 3 mb/s.
> > You can take a look at live demo.
> > Sample blamemap:
> > http://217.147.83.36:9001/wiki/Freebsd?trackchanges=blamemap&oldid=1524
> >
> > Can track even a single character change:
> > http://217.147.83.36:9001/wiki/Freebsd?trackchanges=diff1&oldid=1516
> >
> > Handles text swap:
> > http://217.147.83.36:9001/wiki/Freebsd?trackchanges=diff2&oldid=1513
> >
> > I've plugged it into mediawiki code so at the moment every article and
> > talk page is having credits section and corresponding blamemap. At the
> > moment in order to use this you'll have to have root access to the
> > server and some changes to the mainline code and database will be
> > needed. If you're interested in testing this extension drop me a line.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Roman
>
> The blamemap looks good!
>
> One thing is that there's an XSS attack vector, by creating usernames with quotes and JavaScript event property names. There's a
> Proof-of-Concept of this here - move your cursor over the "MOVE MOUSE CURSOR OVER THIS" second paragraph in the blamemap view:
> http://217.147.83.36:9001/wiki/Freebsd?trackchanges=blamemap&colors=stable
>
> One other very very minor thing is that there's a small amount of HTML that the W3C validator does not like when using the blamemap
> view:
> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2F217.147.83.36%3A9001%2Fwiki%2FFreebsd%3Ftrackchanges%3Dblamemap
>
> All the best,
> Nick.
>
>


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [WikiEN-l] defused timebomb

body:
Andrew Gray wrote:
> On 21/01/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>> I don't know how long the list was but being a "list" it should be
>> enough if there are sources on the listed pages themselves.  Nobody puts
>> sources on the index or Table of Contents of a book, because the sources
>> would already be at more appropriate places.
>
> With a book, we can reliably know that there are sources elsewhere. To
> keep an article like this reliable, we either need to source it on
> that page or else keep checking the section saying "In 1972, she was
> involved in a car accident which left two dead." is still there on
> another page...
>

"Involved" could mean "back seat passenger in the other car". A police
report or court document is required as a source if we are to preserve
NPOV and verifiability.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 542 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20070122/3d8c9bf0/attachment.pgp


subject: [WikiEN-l] In the news...

body:
On 1/22/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
> A slightly creepy loner who has been frightening women in his
> neighbourhood by hanging around their houses and trying to talk to
> them about military history and Star Wars has been ordered by a judge
> to serve his community service on Wikipedia.
>
> Solicitors representing Carl Peterson, from Ipswich, admitted that
> Carl had always found it very difficult to talk to members of the
> opposite sex, and had no idea that they might be slightly disturbed by
> having him wait outside their front doors to recite the fatality
> statistics at Nagasaki. Now as well as a restraining order, the court
> instructed that Carl serve his community service by sharing his
> expertise, writing and editing articles on the online encyclopaedia.
>
> To read the full story, click here:
>
> http://newsbiscuit.com/article/judge-directs-scary-obsessive-towards-wikipedia
>
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

/me bets that the judge is a well known admin. Checkuserers? ;) :P


from_name: Thomas Dalton

body:
> 1) If we're going to blindly attach "nofollow" to all the external
> links, why are we allowing Wikia links to be propped up artificially?
> Are we in the business of conflict of interest now?

Looks like Wikia is treated as an interwiki link, which assumes it's
part of the same project. I'd report it as a bug, if I were you.

> 2) Myspace blogs were recently added to the spam blacklist by Raul per
> request of Jimbo, although no one else seems to know why, how, or per
> what rationale.  I won't pretend to know what Jimbo's been up to past
> not having edited Wikipedia since the is-it-or-is-it-not-a decree, but
> perhaps some more explanation on this would be worthwhile?  Seems like
> we're blocking a shitload of otherwise worthwhile primary source
> material for many of our articles for the sake of...well...nothing.
> Meanwhile, a blog ''not'' hosted on MySpace is still a-okay, which is
> patently absurd on its face.  I'm wondering what the thought process was
> on this, since no one else seems to want to chime in.

MySpace blogs are never a reliable source for anything other than a
MySpace blog, and they are virtually never notable, so I don't see a
problem.

> 3) Did you folks know we have a bot that reverts links that are
> arbitrarily considered spam?  I didn't until today.
> [[User:Shadowbot1]].  I convinced him to post the blacklist where we
> could see it, and while some (most?) are useful, others are pretty
> screwy, and I'm not sure this is helpful in the long run.

I knew, but I've never looked at the blacklist. I've just trusted
it... was I wrong to?

> I'm starting to think that our focus on spam is becoming a problem
> rather than a benefit to the project.  How much collateral damage are we
> willing to accept in the project to take care of this "problem" that
> people think is massive?  One out of every 10?  5% poor hits?  Do we
> have some sort of measurement we're using here?

I don't think there is much if any collateral damage from our
anti-spam efforts. I can remember one problem with ShadowBot removing
a link that it shouldn't have, and I think it was resolved by fixing
the blacklist (I don't remember exactly, I wasn't actually involved to
a great extent).


from_name: Gwern Branwen

in_reply_to:
<45B4B548.5030907@internationalhouseofbacon.com> (Jeff Raymond's
	message of "Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:59:52 -0500")

references:
<45B43623.4070909@internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<fb7fdd9c0701220307k55292f9ai252a71c83fa77911@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B4B035.5010104@internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<fbad4e140701220443y3c425454s8b12340c76b42009@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B4B548.5030907@internationalhouseofbacon.com>

body:
Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com> writes:

> David Gerard wrote:
>
>> Because there were enough MySpace blogs in particular being used as
>> spam links to be a discernible individual problem, with no known cases
>> where they were the right link and just the MySpace page itself
>> wasn't.
>
> There are enough external links being used as spam links to warrant the
> same thing.  I'm still not buying it.
>>
>> What actual (non-hypothetical examples) do you have where the blog is
>> an apposite link rather than the MySpace page itself?
>
> I can't give anything but hypotheticals, but the idea that MySpace blogs
> can't be useful as primary sources for their subjects is crazy.
>
> -Jeff

True. For example, http://www.myspace.com/mkaku is a good source for Dr. [[Michio
Kaku]], though it looks like the current editors of the article have
removed it from everything except External links.

--
Gwern
Inquiring minds want to know.


from_name: John Doe

references:
<45B43623.4070909@internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<a4359dff0701220321h3723016dpbb2d79a05c6165df@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B4B0EA.7070604@internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<9ac45b70701220624r4b17407cu1d2bf97863fb44d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4624.69.21.252.114.1169477001.squirrel@www.internationalhouseofbacon.com>
	<9ac45b70701220731l47b47942r669ce6649bdc3b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<1146.69.21.252.114.1169480714.squirrel@www.internationalhouseofbacon.com>

body:
There was extensive discussion about Shadowbot and how it should operate I
am a Member of [[WP:BAG]] and If there is a bot not functioning properly
PLEASE let BAG know. yes there was a glitch with shadowbot at one point with
a good link being added to is blacklist but that was quickly handled. As
with anyone/anything they make mistakes. I am also a bot operator myself. I
have had my bot break at times. But that was for short period and I have
built in safety overrides. If you would like to see the Impact of what
spamming can do let me point out a recent e-mail that was on the -tech
mailing list. (I will add full text at the bottom of this e-mail). Also if
you need to contact anyone in the anti-spam / shadowbot effort the best way
to contact them is in
irc://irc.freenode.net/wikipedia-spam<irc://irc.freenode.net:7000/wikipedia-spam-t>or
the associated talk channel
irc://irc.freenode.net:/wikipedia-spam-t<irc://irc.freenode.net:7000/wikipedia-spam-t>this
is the best way to see spam in full context or you can check
[[User:Veinor/Links]] for a full off line daily report. lets see you come to
the front lines and SEE what non notable crap we handle and the amount of
SEO (Search Engine Optimization) spammers we have to deal with. And prove
also see the discussion at [[WT:EL]] about this.
Betacommand

E-Mail from Wiki-Tech mailing list:

there is a infamous person in Germany named "Mario Dolzer" (try Google
if you speak German) who is mostly known for spreading dialers.

He is building a massive SEO network for his activities. And since
several weeks he uses dynamically grabbed wikipedia content.

He is not only ignoring "official" OTRS-Mails to him but announce to
sell his "Wikipedia-SEO-Script".

Most probably it will be best to sue him - that is not an easy job.
Second best option seems to be to cut him off.

The good thing: Most of his domains are located in a small adress space.

213.131.228.64/28
213.203.193.128/26
213.131.229.232/29

Just a 'short list' of the abusing domains:
o3.de
100000logos.de
100stunden.de
12cylinders-digital.de
170hits.de
1-a-fotograf.de
1aoe.de
1rbgi.de
3d-way.de
a-a-nail-professional.de
abg-partei.de
abkb.de
acidarea.de
addmoon.de
addy-shop.de
adventure-knut.de
aha-versicherungen.de
aj-entertainment.de
ajinomoto-europe-sales.de
akzente-juweliere.de
alkohol-stammbaum.de
alteseishaus.de
altes-gym.de
alune.de
amateurfunkzentrale.de
amazone.acidarea.de
amv-chater.de
andromeda-projekt.de
angererderjuengere.de
anke-rebholz.de
apartment-gersch.de
apexproto.de
apore.de
ass-tapper.de
astro-paradise.de
at-casting.de
aufbruch-partei.de
augenblick-berlin.de
ausbildung.eroticcounter.de
australien-ferien.de
autofit-lks.de
auto-kauper.de
aworostock.de
azsoftz.de
backpacker-berlin.de
baerbels-welt.de
balsamoel.de
bauchtaenzerin-ayana.de
baumaschinisten-service.de
baumitpeberi.de
beles-buben.de
benhamburg.de
berlin-kurierdienst.de
be-spiegelt.de
besserbio.de
best-filesharing.de
best-of-onlineshop.de
bewaesserung-oase.de
bhg-clan.de
bibliotheksumfrage.de
bier-essing.de
bigfoot-records.de
billig-mode.de
bleeq.de
bloca.de
blog.bloca.de
bluehen-institut.de
bluetensturm.de
blumenschuleshop.de
blunk-event.de
bmg-bayern.de
bms-rostock.de
bmw-webring.de
bocd2000.de
bold-studie.de
bos-systemhaus.de
boule-club-linden.de
boxen-horst-gauss.de
bpml.de
brandenburg-anzeigen.de
bratbeckerswelt.de
brauberger-luebeck.de
bruggi.de
brumm-gallery.de
bszw-zittau.de
btw2003.de
buntestempelwelt.de
cantadeon.de
carlverlag.de
carola-jetz.de
carstnet.de
ccb-berlin.de
centergame.de
cevnet.de
cheatcomm.de
check-the-sound.com
checkthesound.com
cheerleader-honeybees.de
chemische-wartungsprodukte.de
chriss-camerer.de
christ-aktiv.de
chrkoch.de
churchnews4kids.de
ckaules-mmelzer.de
compu-maus.de
comtris.de
consulting-maximum.de
containerakademie.de
coolmaster.de
creativity.mempsych.de
crickethike.de
cudesign.de
cum-web.de
cybercenter.de
cyberwyb.de
cybizz.de
daslebenistgruen.de
dasradderzeit.de
datenbank.hiphoplager.de
dayofhorror.de
deckers-music-hall.de
defiday-coburg.de
demo1502.de
dennisroedl.de
derbrunner.de
designteppich-schurwolle-dekostoff.de
deuko2004.de
dgi-dresden.de
dgsp2005.de
dgz-tagung-freiburg.de
diaboli.de
diaet-netz.de
dianastaehly.de
dieblauenraketen.de
die-dekoration.de
die-dolzer-methode.de
die-feine.de
die-halblechtaler.de
die-partei-boeblingen.de
dietheorie.de
digital-dogs.de
directrecords.de
dirk-michaels.de
diskus-kusebauch.de
dm-mtb2005.de
dmv-shop.de
dobmanns.de
domiphon.de
donopa.de
dotnet-portal.de
dpc-liga.de
dpsg-dioezese-pb.de
dqk-clan.de
dracula-kongress.de
dreamgirlsrevue.de
dsb-bundestag.de
duo.cantadeon.de
dvdclan.de
dvdcompare.de
easy-it-trade.de
eck-stein.de
edelbg.de
edv-reichelt.de
edv-systemhaus-net.de
ei.ag
eichwalder-heimatverein.de
ei-essen.de
eikya.de
einbruchspraevention.de
einewelttage.de
ekklesiastikus.de
electrobender.de
element-clan.de
elke-froehlich.de
elvado.de
emily-holunder.de
enginebay.de
ephesus-gmbh.de
eppelmann.de
erfurt-weimar-jena.de
eroticcounter.de
erotik-manufaktur.de
esports-corner.de
etw2006.de
eurolines-reisen.de
exam-hanau.de
extremsport-gmbh.de
f4faq.de
fahrschule-in-franken.de
fahrsportgemeinschaft-pulheim.de
familie-deutschland.de
fanstorys.de
farbartig.de
fatcast.de
fcb-blog.de
fc-wuestlinge.de
federweise.de
fehmer-marketing.de
feinbeckerei.de
feng-shui-institut.de
ferienfranken.de
ferien-in-volksen.de
fettabbau-mit-goodlife2000.de
finanzmarkt2004.de
find-your-flirt.de
fjhb.com
fleig-shop.de
flying-letter.de
fmfremtid.de
folkaufderbadeinsel.de
fondstalk.de
force-deutschland.de
ford-team-hohenroda.de
forgottenmods.de
forschungsprojektmensch.de
fotoamt.de
fotos.bindow-online.de
frankfurt-for-friends.de
freddys-portal.de
freibauer80.de
freiwilligenzentrum-ffo.de
freizeit-in-sh.de
freizeitparkrobot.de
friedhelm-repnik.de
fritzer-pape.de
frochwolfgang.de
fruits-basket.de
f-s-q.de
fs-tourismus.de
funoperationclan.de
galeriebrhel.de
garde.acidarea.de
gartengestaltung-bambus.de
gasthaus-sacro.de
gawitec.de
gbo-leer.de
gdotsch.de
gemaeldeheld.de
gesamtschule-beelitz.de
gigamall.de
gilesfanfic.de
girorobot.de
gkl-flensborg.de
glaenzer-books.de
gloriousplanet.de
go-loans.de
gp-team.de
gratiserotikvideo.de
graurheindorf.de
grossyacht.liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de
ground-hopping.de
gruenekiste-bs.de
gs-intermedia.de
gsmdev.de
guenterdemant.de
gwa51.de
gwv-gmbh.de
hallo-kaiser.de
handy-family.de
handylogos-handytoene.de
handylogoshop.de
hans-bruemmer.de
hans-wallow.de
harztourservice.de
hausfrauenrobot.de
haus-raphael.de
heinz-hummel.de
herbafit-online.de
heroclix.de
herrscher-des-olymp-zeus.de
highheels.plateau-overknees.de
himmelein-golm.de
hinterglaskunst.de
hiphoplager.de
hirschgarten-raudies.de
hochzeitstauben-oberbayern.de
hochzeit-tauben-muenchen.de
hogschool.de
home-kam.de
homeyinc.de
hondacommunity.de
horn-construct.de
horologium.de
hosankum.de
hotbrick.de
hprg.de
hsc-seacharter.de
hsd-community.de
hs-linux.de
hundepension-neuholland.de
ice-irc.de
ifgmk.de
ijon-tichy.de
imagework.de
immermusik.de
inetcafewn.de
informix.de
info-tec-edv.de
infowave.de
inge-lagemann.de
ingenieurbuero-franken.de
ingo-russmann.de
institut-fuer-thr.de
interbase2000.de
investcentre.de
iriszschirnt.de
it-lehrer.de
itnu.de
it-schule.info
it-schule.org
itwaren.de
it-workx.de
izmittelalterfrueheneuzeit.de
izp-gmbh.de
jamierenae.de
jeanetteb.de
jennycalendar.de
joblooker.de
jobuser.de
jobvermittlung123.de
johannesnaegele.de
jossely.de
jugendberatung-mv.de
jugend-em2005.de
jung-neu-kontakte.de
jutesite.de
kabbalah-web.de
kahdemann-trading.de
karibik-privat.de
karinaskinderwelt.de
karneval-muenster.de
karsten-mv.de
kelomey.de
kennzahlen-vergleiche.de
kent-depesche.de
khinternet.de
kh-roeder.de
kief-er.de
killianhomedesign.de
kinderaerztekongress-berlin-2004.de
kkoegel.de
klauskruhs.de
kloenschnacker.de
knightsofpride.org
knopflerfan.de
knut-meissner.de
koelnerfotonews.de
konnex-eiba.de
korz-web.de
kradtraining.de
kraeutermaerchen.de
kron-edv.de
kuehn-lang.de
kuehntax.de
kummerbuero.de
kunstschuss.de
labrador-bande.de
lackmeinauto.de
languan.de
lars-holstein.de
leitstubeadlgass.de
leonhardt-lyrik.de
lesben-dildos.de
l-f-t.de
lgfst.de
liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de
linkies.de
linux4schools.de
little-hurrican-cattery.de
longlifeproducts.de
lua-nordbayern.de
lufthansareisen.de
lummberg.de
magiewald.de
mahanail-koeln.de
malika-serviceleistungen.de
malum1.de
mamamia-bayreuth.de
mamasu.de
marko-knoche-service.de
marktoberdorf-therapeutikum.de
marktplatz121.de
massagesessel-shop.de
matthiasrieper.de
max-und-moritz-shop.de
mbwe.de
meet-the-proms.de
mempsych.de
merkel-wird-kanzlerin.de
messer-nippon-sanso.de
metapeter.de
metzens.de
mfbauer.de
mgv-luegde.de
mik-web.de
millerdesign.de
mitfahrtip.de
mittelerde-bereisen.de
mmap-erotik.de
mobbingkurs.de
mobiforum.de
moccanonym.de
moehrenwen.de
moewa-lug.de
molmed-freiburg.de
momo-franzi.de
monkeybusyness.de
montagehausbau.de
mortifer.de
mr-foetus.de
mrmusic-aktiv.de
mtp-systemhaus.de
muckels.de
muckraker.de
muetze-shop.de
muhkuhclan.de
mumble.de
murdog.de
musikalischertrichter.de
muwi-videofilm.de
mv-basic.de
my-dop.de
myzweitwohnsitz.de
nabu-wittmund.de
nadelshop.de
naturfaerber.de
navelview.de
net-billing.org
net-market.de
netzwerk-rosenrot.de
neue-profile.de
new-kazaa-skype.com
news-mittel.de
ninahecht.de
nisi-web.de
nitschke-wintergaerten.de
nivor.de
nt-normbau.de
oberweissbacher-berg-und-schwarzatalbahn.de
ohmegatzo.de
olympiatagebuch2008.de
orasis.de
osantorin.de
ottosauter.de
page-y.de
papierwaren-weihrauch.de
paradise4sims.de
parkchallenge.de
parkhotel-krone.de
partner.addmoon.de
partyserviceklein.de
patrizier-alpenland.de
patzkes-welt.de
pegasus-agentur.de
peine-regional.de
pentecostfire.de
pergermusic.de
personal-killaz.de
pferde-versi.de
pfingsttreffen06.de
pheidrias.de
phoenix-chemnitz.de
picdownloads.de
pique-gravur.de
pir-sultan.de
planet-elmi.de
planet-mauze.de
planungsgruppe-vor-ort.de
plateau-overknees.de
plm-competence-network.de
pollux-consult.de
privat-detektei.de
probaund.de
projekt-bibs.de
ps2-future.de
psychoring.de
pyromanica.de
qigong-info.de
racing-team-europe.de
raetsel-service.de
rainbow-sailing.de
rasende-highlander.de
raziemann.de
rdm-rlp.de
red-apel.de
regensburg-lokale.de
regionale-agenda.de
reichelt-netz.de
reisefuehrer-island.de
reiterhof-reitstall.de
reitsportzentrumbernburg.de
reizeitparkrobot.de
renegade-masters.de
rennerz.de
rettinger-familienstellen.de
rheinischeglanviehzuechter.de
rheinneckarhandwerk.de
rhoenrad-online.de
rhonda.rouvard.de
rhoola-campaign.de
richard-nowotny.de
rider-and-horse.de
ri-mini.de
rio-sambashow.de
rios-herzbeben.de
ritter-internship.de
rittervomhahn.de
rkb-deutschland.de
rk-tuebingen.de
robbies-mates.de
robian.de
robothomsen.de
roentgen-kelheim.de
roon-it.de
rosenschenke.de
roterloewe.de
rottweiler-blumental.de
rouvard.de
rszetel.de
rumpeltaenzchen.de
ryzomworld.de
sacred-planet.de
saechsische-bausanierung.de
sagt-ja-zu-freier-software.de
salon-maxwell.de
samba.info
sanae.de.vu
sar-el.de
saskiamodel.de
schach-jedesheim.de
schattennews.de
schausteller-schramm.de
schlafsehrgutbaby.de
schneiderrichterwerkstaetten.de
schoenberg-hexental.de
schoolofshotokankarate-do.org
schrottgala.de
schulterkongress2005.de
schura-frauenbeauftragte.de
schv-soerup.de
schweden-ferienhaus-ferienwohnung.de
schweriner-sv.de
schwimmbadbau-falkenberg.de
sc-langenhagen.de
scn-triathlon.de
secure.gwv-gmbh.de
seneca-grafics.de
sergej-suedwest.de
serienflash.de
sexblox.de
sgmarke.de
sgreat.de
sg-software.de
shanlog.de
sigrid-poehlmann.de
silvershadows.de
silver-shadows-germany.de
simtriplex.de
sing-vs.de
sinus-club.de
sir-robert.de
skar-ma.de
skate-bs.de
skate-the-allgaeu.de
skk-enterprise.de
slowholz.de
s-mart-germany.de
smshilfe.de
software.liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de
sonyericsson-t200.com
sounddriver.de
sourceport.de
sparmausshop.de
specta.de
spielsachenx.de
spitze-dessous.de
sportverein-stahlbau-dessau.de
squash-muenster.de
stabuenv.de
stallcasino.de
stapper-web.de
statt-wfb-denkwerkstatt.de
stefan-frasch.de
studentenrobot.de
suedwestlichebau-bg.de
supergroup-ttc.de
svamlgg.de
sv-info.de
swf-info.de
swingerclubs.brumm-gallery.de
syntixsounds.de
szphoenix.de
tattoofantasy.de
tauchen-kapstadt.de
team-carnevale.de
team-dlb.de
teamrev.de
team-synthetics.de
team-uef.de
technotika.de
tectrol.de
tg-muenden.de
tgsh.de
thegathering-film.de
thesoup.de
thewebcoders.de
thm-clan.de
thomassauer.de
tierheilpraxis-wickenberg.de
tiggilein.de
tinnitusportal.de
tokyotower.de
tom-schuster.de
toms-hawaii.de
toshibaer.de
touristik-hoffe.de
tsc-hope.de
tubestrike.de
turnego.de
tuxcomp.de
tweakchannel.de
ubvenus.de
ultraschall2004.de
umbraeon.de
umtstoene.de
umzugsberatung-berlin.de
undersuspicion.de
uni-konzentrat.de
united-boards-clan.de
uranmaschine.de
usc-muenchen-eishockey.de
vbiw.de
vcd-streifzuege.de
verbalink.org
verkaufsagent-soestshop.de
verlagernstprobst.de
verlaggroteskberlin.de
vhs-mengen.de
viaduktgartenbahn.de
viagra-pills.de
villaunserhaus.de
vivasalsashop.de
volumed.de
wahn-der-gedanken.de
wasserski.freddys-portal.de
wasserwacht-oberlahn.de
webbis-world.de
webdesign.inetcafewn.de
webworker23.de
weihnachtsmann-service-bremen.de
weingut.eppelmann.de
weltjugendtag-sachsen.de
werbung.me.uk
werbung.werbung.me.uk
wer-wie-was.biz
westukraine-gmbh.de
wetterzentraleforum.de
whirlpool-island.de
wiesbaden-fuer-olympia.de
willige-mona.de
wir-wissen-weiter.biz
wm-live-party.de
wng-punk.de
wohnungsanpassung-verbund.de
wohnwagenrobot.de
wundw-lemgo.de
xenos-marburg.de
xi42.de
x-innovum.de
x-men-movies.de
xp.ag
xxxtrem.de
yadogo.de
yburgsauna.de
yggdrasil-bonlanden.de
z211.de
zinkenheimer.de

and

bier-essing.de 213.131.228.70
bocd2000.de 213.131.228.70
easy-it-trade.de 213.131.228.70
fahrschule-in-franken.de 213.131.228.70
kh-roeder.de 213.131.228.70
kradtraining.de 213.131.228.70
lesben-dildos.de 213.131.228.70
max-und-moritz-shop.de 213.131.228.70
merkel-wird-kanzlerin.de 213.131.228.70
net-market.de 213.131.228.70
roentgen-kelheim.de 213.131.228.70
roterloewe.de 213.131.228.70
samba.info 213.131.228.70
viaduktgartenbahn.de 213.131.228.70
wiesbaden-fuer-olympia.de 213.131.228.70
alteseishaus.de 213.131.228.71
backpacker-berlin.de 213.131.228.71
baumaschinisten-service.de 213.131.228.71
blunk-event.de 213.131.228.71
bmg-bayern.de 213.131.228.71
btw2003.de 213.131.228.71
deuko2004.de 213.131.228.71
ei-essen.de 213.131.228.71
emily-holunder.de 213.131.228.71
f4faq.de 213.131.228.71
ferien-in-volksen.de 213.131.228.71
freizeit-in-sh.de 213.131.228.71
gratiserotikvideo.de 213.131.228.71
hochzeitstauben-oberbayern.de 213.131.228.71
hs-linux.de 213.131.228.71
ingenieurbuero-franken.de 213.131.228.71
ingo-russmann.de 213.131.228.71
itwaren.de 213.131.228.71
killianhomedesign.de 213.131.228.71
konnex-eiba.de 213.131.228.71
l-f-t.de 213.131.228.71
lua-nordbayern.de 213.131.228.71
malika-serviceleistungen.de 213.131.228.71
moewa-lug.de 213.131.228.71
murdog.de 213.131.228.71
navelview.de 213.131.228.71
planet-elmi.de 213.131.228.71
pyromanica.de 213.131.228.71
silver-shadows-germany.de 213.131.228.71
sonyericsson-t200.com 213.131.228.71
toms-hawaii.de 213.131.228.71
tubestrike.de 213.131.228.71
weihnachtsmann-service-bremen.de 213.131.228.71
whirlpool-island.de 213.131.228.71
bluehen-institut.de 213.131.228.72
derbrunner.de 213.131.228.72
erotik-manufaktur.de 213.131.228.72
f-s-q.de 213.131.228.72
gbo-leer.de 213.131.228.72
graurheindorf.de 213.131.228.72
grossyacht.liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de 213.131.228.72
hans-bruemmer.de 213.131.228.72
hochzeit-tauben-muenchen.de 213.131.228.72
homeyinc.de 213.131.228.72
institut-fuer-thr.de 213.131.228.72
izp-gmbh.de 213.131.228.72
karsten-mv.de 213.131.228.72
koelnerfotonews.de 213.131.228.72
liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de 213.131.228.72
little-hurrican-cattery.de 213.131.228.72
metapeter.de 213.131.228.72
planungsgruppe-vor-ort.de 213.131.228.72
regionale-agenda.de 213.131.228.72
rheinischeglanviehzuechter.de 213.131.228.72
schura-frauenbeauftragte.de 213.131.228.72
software.liegeplatz-mittelmeer.de 213.131.228.72
tauchen-kapstadt.de 213.131.228.72
usc-muenchen-eishockey.de 213.131.228.72
willige-mona.de 213.131.228.72
wundw-lemgo.de 213.131.228.72
3d-way.de 213.131.228.73
benhamburg.de 213.131.228.73
cevnet.de 213.131.228.73
check-the-sound.com 213.131.228.73
checkthesound.com 213.131.228.73
creativity.mempsych.de 213.131.228.73
die-dolzer-methode.de 213.131.228.73
domiphon.de 213.131.228.73
glaenzer-books.de 213.131.228.73
heinz-hummel.de 213.131.228.73
ijon-tichy.de 213.131.228.73
lackmeinauto.de 213.131.228.73
mempsych.de 213.131.228.73
raetsel-service.de 213.131.228.73
rettinger-familienstellen.de 213.131.228.73
rio-sambashow.de 213.131.228.73
saskiamodel.de 213.131.228.73
simtriplex.de 213.131.228.73
skk-enterprise.de 213.131.228.73
supergroup-ttc.de 213.131.228.73
carstnet.de 213.131.228.74
fettabbau-mit-goodlife2000.de 213.131.228.74
folkaufderbadeinsel.de 213.131.228.74
fritzer-pape.de 213.131.228.74
hirschgarten-raudies.de 213.131.228.74
infowave.de 213.131.228.74
kennzahlen-vergleiche.de 213.131.228.74
kent-depesche.de 213.131.228.74
net-billing.org 213.131.228.74
phoenix-chemnitz.de 213.131.228.74
planet-mauze.de 213.131.228.74
rios-herzbeben.de 213.131.228.74
sagt-ja-zu-freier-software.de 213.131.228.74
schweden-ferienhaus-ferienwohnung.de 213.131.228.74
team-dlb.de 213.131.228.74
umzugsberatung-berlin.de 213.131.228.74
united-boards-clan.de 213.131.228.74
wng-punk.de 213.131.228.74
addmoon.de 213.131.228.75
bruggi.de 213.131.228.75
ekklesiastikus.de 213.131.228.75
erfurt-weimar-jena.de 213.131.228.75
ferienfranken.de 213.131.228.75
jobuser.de 213.131.228.75
linkies.de 213.131.228.75
partner.addmoon.de 213.131.228.75
sacred-planet.de 213.131.228.75
skate-bs.de 213.131.228.75
skate-the-allgaeu.de 213.131.228.75
sourceport.de 213.131.228.75
thewebcoders.de 213.131.228.75
verkaufsagent-soestshop.de 213.131.228.75
1-a-fotograf.de 213.131.228.76
at-casting.de 213.131.228.76
be-spiegelt.de 213.131.228.76
bluetensturm.de 213.131.228.76
designteppich-schurwolle-dekostoff.de 213.131.228.76
eck-stein.de 213.131.228.76
ephesus-gmbh.de 213.131.228.76
federweise.de 213.131.228.76
finanzmarkt2004.de 213.131.228.76
fotos.bindow-online.de 213.131.228.76
hans-wallow.de 213.131.228.76
harztourservice.de 213.131.228.76
hsd-community.de 213.131.228.76
jamierenae.de 213.131.228.76
mamasu.de 213.131.228.76
mtp-systemhaus.de 213.131.228.76
nabu-wittmund.de 213.131.228.76
pique-gravur.de 213.131.228.76
ps2-future.de 213.131.228.76
robbies-mates.de 213.131.228.76
westukraine-gmbh.de 213.131.228.76
wetterzentraleforum.de 213.131.228.76
xi42.de 213.131.228.76
amv-chater.de 213.131.228.77
cyberwyb.de 213.131.228.77
fanstorys.de 213.131.228.77
gesamtschule-beelitz.de 213.131.228.77
interbase2000.de 213.131.228.77
khinternet.de 213.131.228.77
mittelerde-bereisen.de 213.131.228.77
raziemann.de 213.131.228.77
rider-and-horse.de 213.131.228.77
ri-mini.de 213.131.228.77
rszetel.de 213.131.228.77
thesoup.de 213.131.228.77
vcd-streifzuege.de 213.131.228.77
yggdrasil-bonlanden.de 213.131.228.77
100000logos.de 213.131.228.78
aufbruch-partei.de 213.131.228.78
chemische-wartungsprodukte.de 213.131.228.78
dietheorie.de 213.131.228.78
dreamgirlsrevue.de 213.131.228.78
einbruchspraevention.de 213.131.228.78
freddys-portal.de 213.131.228.78
galeriebrhel.de 213.131.228.78
jobvermittlung123.de 213.131.228.78
leonhardt-lyrik.de 213.131.228.78
mamamia-bayreuth.de 213.131.228.78
marktoberdorf-therapeutikum.de 213.131.228.78
massagesessel-shop.de 213.131.228.78
montagehausbau.de 213.131.228.78
schausteller-schramm.de 213.131.228.78
sexblox.de 213.131.228.78
specta.de 213.131.228.78

Bye, Tim.

--
http://wikipedistik.de


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

subject: [Wikitech-l] Suggestion: "Maintenance mode"

body:
On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 12:41:28AM +1100, Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 1/22/07, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It's the very first comment, by the person who WONTFIXed it (i.e.,
> > Brion, who as you may recall is the lead developer):  "Redirects are
> > meant to be a transparent part of the user interface. Behaving just
> > like other links is desired behavior, not a bug."
>
> "Transparent" is ambiguous here. Normally in these contexts,
> transparent means "the user can see exactly what is going on". Whereas
> Brion apparently meant "invisible", in the sense that "transparent"
> glass is kind of "invisible".
>
> Semantics aside, being able to distinguish redirects from links to
> real articles strikes me as useful, and not "undesirable" at all.

I had what I think was most of this argument last fall; you might want
to check the archives.  :-)  It was in the context of URLs and the
sub-labels, but still similar.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
2007/1/22, Nick Jenkins <nickpj at gmail.com>:
>
>
> <rant>
> Before anyone feels tempted to propose new policies, can they please try a
> simple test first: Take the negative/opposite, and ask
> yourself if anyone normal would support it, or do that thing. If the
> answer is "no", then the policy or naming is probably daft,
> because it's not telling you anything you don't already know.
>
> Example: "Don't be dense"   --opposite-->    "Try to be completely
> stupid"  ---Would anyone normal support?-->  "No"  -->  policy is
> a waste of space.
>

I may agree with your basic idea, but certainly not with the way you try to
implement it. The opposite of "Don't be dense" that you should compare with
is not "Try to be completely stupid" but "Feel free to be however stupid you
want." And I could imagine there ARE people supporting that, although they
will not be a large group.

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] mydatapages.com mirroring w/o credit or GFDL notice

body:
Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks.

On 1/22/07, George Herbert <george.herbert at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The website mydatapages.com is returning older Wikipedia page content
> for searches, and has no WP credit or GFDL notice on it.  I don't know
> who the appropriate internal people are to take a look at this, but I
> am hoping that someone here can forward it properly (and/or is the
> right person themselves)...
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herbert at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On 1/22/07, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com> wrote:
>
> 2) Myspace blogs were recently added to the spam blacklist by Raul per
> request of Jimbo, although no one else seems to know why, how, or per
> what rationale.  I won't pretend to know what Jimbo's been up to past
> not having edited Wikipedia since the is-it-or-is-it-not-a decree, but
> perhaps some more explanation on this would be worthwhile?  Seems like
> we're blocking a shitload of otherwise worthwhile primary source
> material for many of our articles for the sake of...well...nothing.
> Meanwhile, a blog ''not'' hosted on MySpace is still a-okay, which is
> patently absurd on its face.  I'm wondering what the thought process was
> on this, since no one else seems to want to chime in.

Other blogs aren't a-okay, but it's simply not possible to block all blogs.
Personally, I will allow blogs as sources when its contents can clearly be
attributed to a notable individual. 99% of MySpace members isn't remotely
notable at all.

Mgm


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] slowness today

body:
On 22/01/07, Nick Jenkins <nickpj at gmail.com> wrote:

> > >> There's no "policy" here. Just *sense*.

> > > Fortunately, this has been written up as policy: [[m:Don't be dense]].
> > > Phew! Writing it up as policy should fix the problem!

> > *cries*

> <rant>
> Before anyone feels tempted to propose new policies, can they please try a simple test first:

The page existed ages ago. I was making an oblique comment pretty much
agreeing with what you say.

The problem is a fundamental issue of thought processes - many people
involved in Wikipedia seem *unable* to deal with ambiguity and feel
they must resolve grey areas at all costs.

My own rant on the subject is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:PRO .

> So, if you feel tempted to come up with policies or guidelines such as "Don't torture cute kittens > and then bury them alive", then
> please: Don't. Thanks!

[[WP:BEANS]]

- d.


from_name: Marc Riddell

subject: [WikiEN-l] In the news...

body:
on 1/22/07 12:00 PM, Guy Chapman aka JzG at guy.chapman at spamcop.net wrote:

> A slightly creepy loner who has been frightening women in his
> neighbourhood by hanging around their houses and trying to talk to
> them about military history and Star Wars has been ordered by a judge
> to serve his community service on Wikipedia.
>
> Solicitors representing Carl Peterson, from Ipswich, admitted that
> Carl had always found it very difficult to talk to members of the
> opposite sex, and had no idea that they might be slightly disturbed by
> having him wait outside their front doors to recite the fatality
> statistics at Nagasaki. Now as well as a restraining order, the court
> instructed that Carl serve his community service by sharing his
> expertise, writing and editing articles on the online encyclopaedia.

And the next time he goes before the judge he can use the Twinkipedia
Defense :-)

Marc


from_name: Mak

subject: [WikiEN-l] In the news...

body:
Hm, I wonder what happens if he gets banned for bad wiki-behavior?

On 1/22/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> on 1/22/07 12:00 PM, Guy Chapman aka JzG at guy.chapman at spamcop.net wrote:
>
> > A slightly creepy loner who has been frightening women in his
> > neighbourhood by hanging around their houses and trying to talk to
> > them about military history and Star Wars has been ordered by a judge
> > to serve his community service on Wikipedia.
> >
> > Solicitors representing Carl Peterson, from Ipswich, admitted that
> > Carl had always found it very difficult to talk to members of the
> > opposite sex, and had no idea that they might be slightly disturbed by
> > having him wait outside their front doors to recite the fatality
> > statistics at Nagasaki. Now as well as a restraining order, the court
> > instructed that Carl serve his community service by sharing his
> > expertise, writing and editing articles on the online encyclopaedia.
>
> And the next time he goes before the judge he can use the Twinkipedia
> Defense :-)
>
> Marc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On 22/01/07, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com> wrote:

> 2) Myspace blogs were recently added to the spam blacklist by Raul per
> request of Jimbo, although no one else seems to know why, how, or per
> what rationale.

Because the pages themselves are often appropriate external links, but
the blogs almost never are - and there were enough of them that they
were becoming a problem in themselves.

Note that a link can still be put into the text if you leave the
http:// off the front, so that it's only text. This way a blog post
could be used as e.g. a reference should that be appropriate in a
given caes.

- d.


body:
On 22/01/07, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com> wrote:
> MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

> > Other blogs aren't a-okay, but it's simply not possible to block all blogs.
> > Personally, I will allow blogs as sources when its contents can clearly be
> > attributed to a notable individual. 99% of MySpace members isn't remotely
> > notable at all.

> So because most blogs aren't useful, we'll simply assume they all
> aren't.  Hey, most websites aren't useful, either, why not disable all
> external linking altogether?

Because there were enough MySpace blogs in particular being used as
spam links to be a discernible individual problem, with no known cases
where they were the right link and just the MySpace page itself
wasn't.

What actual (non-hypothetical examples) do you have where the blog is
an apposite link rather than the MySpace page itself?

- d.