from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
This is one where setting a good example is useless,  because it isn't
noticed. I send email in plain text, and people still insist on responding
in HTML with settings like black-on-dark-gray. They don't realize that
plain text is a choice made for good reasons.

Black-on-dark-gray is, simply, not readable by this human being (who is
already wearing bifocal lenses). If it's your easiest way to read, set your
computer
display to that--then you can read my messages as is easiest for you, and I can
still read yours.

In the meantime, if I seem to be ignoring you, it's because you have taken
extra
effort to make your messages opaque, and I'm tired of taking the effort to
undo it.

Wikikarma: copyediting and expansion of [[Alt hierarchy]]
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
> It sounds like a bad idea to me.  If people want to take notes,
> couldn't they use a page in the user space, or on meta, or something
> like that?
>

Oh. That's right. I forgot about the meta. :) -SV


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Holy Prophet Albert J-ch-r!

body:
> James: I hereby declare J-ch-rism to be the official religion of
wikipedia.
> We are now all his disciples.
>
> His name is so holy, his ideas so exquisite, that they may not be
> uttered or written by anyone.  We shall honor his sacred name by
> deleting all references to him and his ideas immediately on sight.
>
> We shall refer to him as AJ, after AJ Simon from the old television
> show "Simon and Simon" -- see the similarity?

ROFL. -:) SV


subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
> Black-on-dark-gray is, simply, not readable by this human being (who is
> already wearing bifocal lenses). If it's your easiest way to read, set
your
> computer
> display to that--then you can read my messages as is easiest for you, and
I can
> still read yours.

Ive sent my latest dozen in Plain text.  I dont know if its of me you speak,
because Ive ceased doing that. My text isnt black either.

I should explain: my global settings are very dark grey background and light
grey text...Its been proven to be better for reading,  because its far less
screen radiation... easier on the eyes. I cant stand a white background and
wont put up with it anymore, as well as low refresh rates.. CRT's even nice
ones like mine put out too damn much light..  -SV


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Stop your stupid, hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

body:
Andre Engels wrote:

>The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform people about subjects they are
>interested in, in a neutral manner. 'Informing people about wisdom' your
>way sounds very much non-neutral to me. And Albertism is just you, it's not
>like somebody is going to find Albertism somewhere and will want to know
>more about it through Wikipedia.
>
Not always.  A SINGLE article about Albertism may interest a student of
obscure and bizarre religious cults.  It could be referenced from [[List
of one-man religions]]

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Other French dialects might spell it "Fou" (mad) or "Faux" (wrong) ... ;o)
>
For the benefit of those who aren't aware, this is "mad" in the British
rather than the American sense. :-)

Ec


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
Like all this bogus text can just go to::
* the article's talk page, or
* a user talk page, or
* the MetaWikipedia

I'm totally into meta, cuz peeps won't be like fighting
and stuff over POVs! And when surfs up, the parts we
 all dig can boogie on over to the real Wikipedia!!

Surfer Dude
-----Original Message-----
From: Stevertigo [mailto:stevertigo at attbi.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:56 AM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

Danny complined: Now we have an article called "Turkish
atrocities against Kurds" which consists of a random selection
 of cut and pasted articles from other sources. It exceeds
35 K and the heading says "Notes for an article." Wikipedia
is not a place to stick random notes, newspaper articles
or whatnot. I believe this can be an article. It can even be
an NPOV article (though it isn't now, because apart from
political rhetoric, the article barely documents the atrocities
it claims to describe). Can we at least formulate a policy
on this type of behavior.

Steve: Nonsense! In fact we should have *note pages* in
addition to talk pages! Great idea Danny, Im glad you came
 up with it. Reason? Im not in the mood to add material and
have it mercillessly chopped up by a bunch of bored piranhas...
Im cooking my meal before I serve it. F

irst the ingredients! Be well, Dan. _~~~
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Show and Tell

body:
> uncle ed
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=S.C.I.E.N.C.E.&action=history
> <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=S.C.I.E.N.C.E.&action=history>
>
Michael isn't in that article history.
I don't think it'll work -- but I'm a bitter young cynic.
I'm prepared to be proved wrong. :-)

Yo, tarky-dude! Lighten up, bro!! It's all good!!

Surfer Dude


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>>>and m4 is
>>>the suggested (in the sendmail install documentation) format for
>>>sendmail configuration, from which actual .cf files are built.
>>>
>>Feel free to mess with it, my good man.  *shudder*
>>
>
>Just in case some other wikitech members don't know anything about
>sendmail, I'll explain Brion's *shudder*.  The sendmail.cf file is in
>more or less the original format that sendmail.cf files have been in
>for years: virtually indistinguishable in places from modem noise.
>
>When the fine folks at sendmail realized that the complexity of the
>config file had grown so high that virtually no one understood how to
>use it, they came up with a brilliant (?) idea.
>
>Now what you're supposed to do is write *another* config file, in M4
>format (a format no one else uses for anything) and compile that
>(using a program no one else uses for anything) to create a
>sendmail.cf.
>
>It's all frightening and insane.
>
It sounds like a damn good reason to double Brion's salary. ;-)
Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Fork Fifty-Seven "Disinfopedia"

body:
Im wondering when Sheldon was going to tell us about this:
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml

Info:
http://www.prwatch.org/spin/March_2003.html#1047445200


subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:

> Black-on-dark-gray is, simply, not readable by this human being (who is
> already wearing bifocal lenses). If it's your easiest way to read, set
> your computer
> display to that--then you can read my messages as is easiest for you,
> and I can
> still read yours.

I've seen these things from Steve, and they only appear on the
occasional one of his many posts without apparent pattern.  I'm willing
to give him the benefit of the doubt about the intentionality of this.

I've found that the easiest way to read them has been to use the "reply"
icon.  This opens it up in an edit screen that I can delete after I've
read the message.

Eclecticology


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 08:46, Stevertigo wrote:
> > Black-on-dark-gray is, simply, not readable by this human being
>
> Ive sent my latest dozen in Plain text.  I dont know if its of me you speak,
> because Ive ceased doing that.

You've sent a dozen messages since 8:35 pm last night?

>  My text isnt black either.

I'm afraid it is. It may not be displaying as black in your e-mail
client, but because your HTML mails specify a background color and not a
foreground color ("<BODY bgColor=#282828>"), for most people the text
will display with the default foreground color of *black*.

Does anyone know of a nice html-mail stripping filter that we could run
on messages being sent through the lists?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
That's not a fork, he's just using our software for his project.  He's
been very open about this interest all along.

It's not an encyclopedia, and it's not NPOV.  Neither of those
are criticisms, either!

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Does anyone know of a nice html-mail stripping filter that we could run
> on messages being sent through the lists?

stripmime.pl does a dandy job.  Keeps viruses and images out, too.

It keeps all email plaintext, the way J-ch-r intended.  :-)

--Jimbo


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Internal anchors (Was: Footnotes?)

body:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:15:12 -0800, Toby Bartels
<toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:

> Tarquin wrote:
>
>> Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
>
>>>
This is a subhead

>
>>
This is a subhead

>
>> Don't include the name in the , I think that will could it acquire
>> hovering properties (underlining, etc) which we don't want
>
> Which browsers do this?  Is this more than just a guess?
Yes - all those which comply with the standards: Opera, Mozilla, and IIRC,
IE5/Mac.
Opera7, incidentally, is the first browser to fully comply with the
standards and allow hover styling on all elements. However, it is also true
>
> And I do suggest recognising the spaces as we normally do in our URLs,
> to avoid confusing people by doing them differently.
removing whitespace is NOT a matter of choice. What delimits the end of an
URL? Whitespace.

So  and  ought both resolve to the
same anchor:
There is a risk that they will match . Some
browsers do allow spaces at present, but it shouldn't be relied upon.

Finally, the name attribute is more or less deprecated in favour of "id".
It doesn't appear at all by XHTML 1.1. As I mentioned previously, the only
browser with any significant market share which doesn't support internal
links to id is Netscape 4. Which I think we can live with. Netscape 4 users
must surely be aware that many features of the modern web don't work for
them.

--
Richard Grevers


body:
> >The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform people about subjects they are
> >interested in, in a neutral manner. 'Informing people about wisdom' your
> >way sounds very much non-neutral to me. And Albertism is just you, it's
not
> >like somebody is going to find Albertism somewhere and will want to know
> >more about it through Wikipedia.
> >
> Not always.  A SINGLE article about Albertism may interest a student of
> obscure and bizarre religious cults.  It could be referenced from [[List
> of one-man religions]]

God thats just too funny. -ROSV


body:
A little easier:
http://albertanism.freezope.org/
http://www.republika.pl/albertan/towas/
http://republika.pl/albertan/

Oh BTW, reading these links alone makes you a member of his 'club' according
to the literature... :)


from_name: Andre Engels

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Stop your stupid, hostile activity against Holy
 Prophet Albert Jacher!

body:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Albert Jacher wrote:

> Who are you to judge me whether i am the Chosen by God Holy Prophet or
> not?!

We do not judge whether you are chosen or not, we only choose whether or
not to put information in Wikipedia. And I completely agree with those
people that 'Albertanism' does not belong in Wikipedia.

> I assume that this encyclopedia is just for humans on planet Earth and not
> especially for Jews and Christians... If i am wrong about it tell me!

It is meant for everyone, but that does not mean that everything is welcome.
Your material on Albertanism may be interesting for you, it is not for the
rest of the world.

> But if this medium is intended to be a free medium and magazine of
> information, then leave me alone and let me inform humans on planet about
> wisdom unlike other religions did.

The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform people about subjects they are
interested in, in a neutral manner. 'Informing people about wisdom' your
way sounds very much non-neutral to me. And Albertism is just you, it's not
like somebody is going to find Albertism somewhere and will want to know
more about it through Wikipedia.

> It this encylopedia is for arrogant Jews and Christians only then stop
> proclaiming this wikipedia as "free" because it is simply false statement.

It is free. You are free to take anything out of Wikipedia, change it, and
place it on your own website, provided you do so under the GNU/FDL. It is
not free in the sense that you can just write anything you want and use
Wikipedia as a publishing medium. If you thought wikipedia was 'free' in
that sense, you were indeed wrong.

Andre Engels


from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Show and Tell

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Sometimes the best approach to "uncooperative" people is to give them
> a good example. That is, /show them/ what to do instead of /telling them./
>
> For example, user:Michael responded to Jimbo's and my policy comments
> by wiping his page today. To me, this means he doesn't want to engage
> in any dialogue. Should we ban him because he won't talk? No.
>
> I don't think refusing to dialogue is (or should be) a bannable
> offense, and I've also heard people say that actions speak louder than
> words, so I decided to rack up some wiki karma by following Michael
> around a bit and /demonstrating how a stub can be fleshed out./
>
> uncle ed
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=S.C.I.E.N.C.E.&action=history
> <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=S.C.I.E.N.C.E.&action=history>
>
Michael isn't in that article history.
I don't think it'll work -- but I'm a bitter young cynic.
I'm prepared to be proved wrong. :-)


from_name: Jason Richey

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

in_reply_to: <3E70BCA3.3050207@telus.net>; from saintonge@telus.net on Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 09:15:15AM -0800

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> It sounds like a damn good reason to double Brion's salary. ;-)
> Ec

Ooh, I think we should quadruple it...  Volunteers like Brion don't
come along every day...

We need an official holiday to celebrate such contributors.

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


body:
Stevertigo wrote:

>A little easier:
>http://albertanism.freezope.org/
>http://www.republika.pl/albertan/towas/
>http://republika.pl/albertan/
>
>Oh BTW, reading these links alone makes you a member of his 'club' according
>to the literature... :)
>
That sounds like the Mormon practice of retroactively baptizing long
dead ancestors into the faith.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] A Classic Talk page:

body:
Sorry, but I was just re-reading a tender piece of idiocy between myself and
a fellow crackpot Wikipedantic...on the Talk:Islamism page...  So Ive
created:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikpedia:Notable_Talk_Pages

As a point of interest... -SV


body:
Albert Jacher wrote:

>User:Danny
>User:Tannin
>User:Notheruser
>
>
>Stop deleting my text!!!
>
>How can you be so rude and stupid?!<br>
>Stop your hostile stupid activity against me!
>
>Stop your hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!
>
>Who are you to judge me whether i am the Chosen by God Holy Prophet or
>not?!
>ARE YOU GOD?!?!?!
>
>
>
Yes, I am actually.
Charmed.

>
>


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Footnotes?

body:
Sheldon Rampton wrote:

> This argument doesn't hold up, for the following reasons:
> (1) The last I heard, there wasn't much chance that Wikipedia would be
> published anytime soon in a paper-based form.
I did not know that. But nevertheless I still try to convert articles to
LaTeX -- started with the idea to create a printable version of the
german Wikipedia instructions (Handbuch). The intention is, if it can
handle the instructions, it can handle articles as well.
> (2) Even if it *were* published in a paper-based form, it would be a
> trivial task to write code that would strip out end notes if so desired.
> Something like this would have to be done in any case for Wiki links and
> external hyperlinks. (Underlined text in different colors ALSO looks bad
> in a paper-based document, especially when there's no way to click on
> them and go to the hyperlinked resource.)
Ok, paper-based meens for me also a PDF Version, and PDF can handle
Links. Well Latex can handle footnotes too, but I think it will look
*shiver* bad (in an enciclopedia context).
> (3) [...] Do you put them in parentheses in the middle of the
> article, where they would break up the text and make everything ugly? Do
> you stick all the embedded hyperlinks at the bottom of the article, as
> "pseudo end notes"?
Did not seen much from other wiki's, but in the german wikipedia the
external links are usually at the end of an article (section
===Links===). It's nice to have them, but in a printed (non PDF) Version
I would skip them. Befor the printer is cold the link changed ;)

I don't have any problems skipping or integrating anchors, footnotes and
whatever in a printed version or in the online wiki (see democracy). I
don't see the need for it, in an enciclopedia. Most of the books
(especially enciclopedias) in the world works pretty well without
footnotes and/or anchors ;)

Smurf
--
  --- Anthill Inside! ---


subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 10:01, sannse wrote:
> While we are on the subject of e-mail formats, does anyone know why I get
> Brion and Jonathan's messages to this list as attachments?

These messages are cryptographically signed with PGP/GnuPG. (You may
note that mails I send from my university address are not currently
signed, but those I send from home are.)

The signatures may show up as attachments in many mailers, but the
message contents themselves oughtn't...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
Although I agree that the subject deserves an article, any article with this title cannot be NPOV.
Zoe
 daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:Now we have an article called "Turkish atrocities against Kurds" which consists of a random selection of cut and pasted articles from other sources. It exceeds 35 K and the heading says "Notes for an article." Wikipedia is not a place to stick random notes, newspaper articles or whatnot. I believe this can be an article. It can even be an NPOV article (though it isn't now, because apart from political rhetoric, the article barely documents the atrocities it claims to describe). Can we at least formulate a policy on this type of behavior.

Danny

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
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from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Disinfopedia now open for business

body:
Hi all...for those of you who haven't heard yet, my "Disinfopedia" is
now publicly launched and completely out of my control. ;)

The Disinfopedia is inspired by Wikipedia, and I borrowed heavily
from its Help files. However, it will have different content and a
somewhat different editorial policy. Instead of a "neutral point of
view," our standard is "fairness and accuracy." This may seem like a
semantic quibble, but an "encyclopedia of propaganda" by definition
entails controversy, and I wanted to leave more leeway for
contributions that might seem too POV for Wikipedia.

The following is an announcement that we sent out to the PR Watch
mailing list a couple of days ago:

>Dear Weekly Spin subscriber,
>
>As the United States lurches awkwardly into war, we want to invite
>you to participate in a new project launched by the same people who
>brought you the Weekly Spin and PR Watch. We are calling it a
>"Disinfopedia" -- an online, collaboratively-written "encyclopedia of
>propaganda." It lets anyone, INCLUDING YOU, contribute or edit any
>article at any time.
>
>To try it yourself, please visit the following URL:
>
>http://www.disinfopedia.org
>
>The Disinfopedia runs on the same software as Wikipedia
>(www.wikipedia.org), a successful project to produce a "complete and
>accurate open content encyclopedia." It operates under the "GNU open
>document license," which is similar to the "open source" license used
>to develop free software such as the Linux computer operating system.
>This model of human collaborative research operates according to
>surprisingly simple principles that resemble the system of "peer
>review" used in scientific research. On Disinfopedia, everyone is a
>peer reviewer. Anyone can submit an article, and anyone can edit any
>article. You might worry that this would lead to anarchy and mere
>gibberish. Actually, though, this approach has worked quite well in
>practice. In only two years of operation, Wikipedia has already
>developed more than 100,000 articles, many of which are comparable in
>detail and accuracy to the Encyclopedia Britannica. This approach
>works for the same reason that open source software keeps improving:
>For every person who makes a malicious or erroneous contribution,
>numerous others correct errors and make improvements.
>
>With war on the horizon, developing a public resource on propaganda
>has never been more important. We have drafted an essay about
>Iraq-related propaganda, titled "Weapons of mass deception," which
>you can read (and revise) at the following URL:
>
>http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Weapons_of_mass_deceptio
>n
>
>Beyond the immediate goal of developing a resource on propaganda, we
>hope that the Disinfopedia can serve as an example that will help in
>developing alternatives to conventional, mass-media journalism.
>Traditional media lend themselves readily to a "propaganda" style of
>communication, in which a small number of individuals produce
>messages designed for broadcasting to millions of passive recipients.
>The Internet has contributed to breaking down this artificial
>dichotomy between "broadcaster" and "audience." The Disinfopedia is
>an experiment that we hope will go further still, by demonstrating
>that "the masses" can do just as good a job of analyzing and
>understanding their information environment as professional
>journalists.
>
>In order for this to succeed, of course, we need people like you
>(yes, YOU) to add your eyeballs and your intelligence to this
>project. We hope you will take a look at the Disinfopedia. Cast your
>vote for a more democratic world by contributing early, and
>contributing often!
>
>Laura Miller, Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber
>Editors of PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>The Weekly Spin is compiled by staff and volunteers at PR Watch.
>To subscribe or unsubcribe, visit:
>http://www.prwatch.org/cmd/subscribe_sotd.html
>
>Daily updates and news from past weeks can be found at the
>Spin of the Day" section of the PR Watch website:
>http://www.prwatch.org/spin/index.html
>
>Archives of our quarterly publication, PR Watch, are at:
>http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues
>
>Our new project, the Disinfopedia, is at:
>http://www.disinfopedia.org
>
>PR Watch, Spin of the Day, the Weekly Spin, and
>Disinfopedia are projects of the Center for Media &
>Democracy, a nonprofit organization that offers
>investigative reporting on the public relations
>industry. We help the public recognize manipulative and
>misleading PR practices by exposing the activities of
>secretive, little-known propaganda-for-hire firms that
>work to control political debates and public opinion.
>Please send any questions or suggestions about our
>publications to:
>editor at prwatch.org
>
>Contributions to the Center for Media & Democracy
>are tax-deductible. Send checks to:
>    CMD
>    520 University Ave. #310
>    Madison, WI 53703
>
>To donate now online, visit:
>https://www.egrants.org/donate/index.cfm?ID=2344-0|1118-0

--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

body:
Hi,

Other French dialects might spell it "Fou" (mad) or "Faux" (wrong) ... ;o)

Yann

Le Jeudi 13 Mars 2003 04:04, Sean Barrett a ?crit :
> Feaux?
>
> From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
>
> > Option: Only articles that contain the word "Foo" should be counted.
> > 1 (very good): FooMaster[...]
> > 5: KungFoo
>
> Objection! The assortium of world
> language wikipedias object on the
> grounds that the orthography of
> "Foo" proves to be too anglo-centric.
>
> A more international spelling would
> need to be accepted into the vote.
>
> A resolution calling for the immediate
> dismissal of "Foo" and a motion for
> re-spelling as "Fu" is now on the floor.
>
> "FuBar" would thus be more in tune
> with "Fu Man Chu".

--
http://www.forget-me.net
Alternatives sur le Net
http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA


body:
I've already mentioned that I question that the article at [[Disinfopedia]] is NPOV.
Zoe
 Sheldon Rampton <sheldon.rampton at verizon.net> wrote:Hi all...for those of you who haven't heard yet, my "Disinfopedia" is
now publicly launched and completely out of my control. ;)

The Disinfopedia is inspired by Wikipedia, and I borrowed heavily
from its Help files. However, it will have different content and a
somewhat different editorial policy. Instead of a "neutral point of
view," our standard is "fairness and accuracy." This may seem like a
semantic quibble, but an "encyclopedia of propaganda" by definition
entails controversy, and I wanted to leave more leeway for
contributions that might seem too POV for Wikipedia.

The following is an announcement that we sent out to the PR Watch
mailing list a couple of days ago:

>Dear Weekly Spin subscriber,
>
>As the United States lurches awkwardly into war, we want to invite
>you to participate in a new project launched by the same people who
>brought you the Weekly Spin and PR Watch. We are calling it a
>"Disinfopedia" -- an online, collaboratively-written "encyclopedia of
>propaganda." It lets anyone, INCLUDING YOU, contribute or edit any
>article at any time.
>
>To try it yourself, please visit the following URL:
>
>http://www.disinfopedia.org
>
>The Disinfopedia runs on the same software as Wikipedia
>(www.wikipedia.org), a successful project to produce a "complete and
>accurate open content encyclopedia." It operates under the "GNU open
>document license," which is similar to the "open source" license used
>to develop free software such as the Linux computer operating system.
>This model of human collaborative research operates according to
>surprisingly simple principles that resemble the system of "peer
>review" used in scientific research. On Disinfopedia, everyone is a
>peer reviewer. Anyone can submit an article, and anyone can edit any
>article. You might worry that this would lead to anarchy and mere
>gibberish. Actually, though, this approach has worked quite well in
>practice. In only two years of operation, Wikipedia has already
>developed more than 100,000 articles, many of which are comparable in
>detail and accuracy to the Encyclopedia Britannica. This approach
>works for the same reason that open source software keeps improving:
>For every person who makes a malicious or erroneous contribution,
>numerous others correct errors and make improvements.
>
>With war on the horizon, developing a public resource on propaganda
>has never been more important. We have drafted an essay about
>Iraq-related propaganda, titled "Weapons of mass deception," which
>you can read (and revise) at the following URL:
>
>http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Weapons_of_mass_deceptio
>n
>
>Beyond the immediate goal of developing a resource on propaganda, we
>hope that the Disinfopedia can serve as an example that will help in
>developing alternatives to conventional, mass-media journalism.
>Traditional media lend themselves readily to a "propaganda" style of
>communication, in which a small number of individuals produce
>messages designed for broadcasting to millions of passive recipients.
>The Internet has contributed to breaking down this artificial
>dichotomy between "broadcaster" and "audience." The Disinfopedia is
>an experiment that we hope will go further still, by demonstrating
>that "the masses" can do just as good a job of analyzing and
>understanding their information environment as professional
>journalists.
>
>In order for this to succeed, of course, we need people like you
>(yes, YOU) to add your eyeballs and your intelligence to this
>project. We hope you will take a look at the Disinfopedia. Cast your
>vote for a more democratic world by contributing early, and
>contributing often!
>
>Laura Miller, Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber
>Editors of PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>The Weekly Spin is compiled by staff and volunteers at PR Watch.
>To subscribe or unsubcribe, visit:
>http://www.prwatch.org/cmd/subscribe_sotd.html
>
>Daily updates and news from past weeks can be found at the
>Spin of the Day" section of the PR Watch website:
>http://www.prwatch.org/spin/index.html
>
>Archives of our quarterly publication, PR Watch, are at:
>http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues
>
>Our new project, the Disinfopedia, is at:
>http://www.disinfopedia.org
>
>PR Watch, Spin of the Day, the Weekly Spin, and
>Disinfopedia are projects of the Center for Media &
>Democracy, a nonprofit organization that offers
>investigative reporting on the public relations
>industry. We help the public recognize manipulative and
>misleading PR practices by exposing the activities of
>secretive, little-known propaganda-for-hire firms that
>work to control political debates and public opinion.
>Please send any questions or suggestions about our
>publications to:
>editor at prwatch.org
>
>Contributions to the Center for Media & Democracy
>are tax-deductible. Send checks to:
> CMD
> 520 University Ave. #310
> Madison, WI 53703
>
>To donate now online, visit:
>https://www.egrants.org/donate/index.cfm?ID=2344-0|1118-0

--
--------------------------------
| Sheldon Rampton
| Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
| Author of books including:
| Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
| Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
| Mad Cow USA
| Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------
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subject: [WikiEN-l] The names of Japanese Emperors

body:
The names of Japanese Emperors have become a total mess, thanks to the refusal of Taku to compromise and his desire to name people to disagree with him anti-Japanese.

see http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TakuyaMurata and http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)

Zoe

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: acapedia.org

body:
I'm afraid this doesn't answer my question.
Zoe
 Giskart <giskart at wikipedia.be> wrote:Zoe wrote in
news:20030313043132.44640.qmail at web40907.mail.yahoo.com:

>
> What is acapedia.org? Why, when I go to it, does it send me to the
> main Wikipedia page?
>
> Zoe

Ask Rob.

http://www.bulgariantourism.com/category.php?c=reference

--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be

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from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

body:
--- Jay Bowks <jjbowks at adam.cheshire.net> wrote:
> From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
> > Option: Only articles that contain the word "Foo"
> should be counted.
> > 1 (very good): FooMaster[...]
> > 5: KungFoo
>
> Objection! The assortium of world
> language wikipedias object on the
> grounds that the orthography of
> "Foo" proves to be too anglo-centric.
>
> A more international spelling would
> need to be accepted into the vote.
>
> A resolution calling for the immediate
> dismissal of "Foo" and a motion for
> re-spelling as "Fu" is now on the floor.
>
> "FuBar" would thus be more in tune
> with "Fu Man Chu".
>
> Amicomicalmente ;-)
> Jay B.

btw, what does "foo" mean ?

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from_name: Gareth Owen

body:
"Albert Jacher" <albertan at op.pl> writes:

> User:Danny
> User:Tannin
> User:Notheruser
>
> Stop deleting my text!!!

User:Danny
User:Tannin
User:Notheruser

Keep deleting his text!!!

--
Gareth Owen


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
--- Athymik <athymik at ifrance.com> wrote:
> > =20
> > > > Oui !
> > > > The french wikipedia has become a hunt place
> for
> > > > commas !
> > > > Even in articles less than 10 words long...
> > >=20
> > > Ouhl=E0l=E0... Warning commas-hunters ! Anthere
> is back
> > > !!!
> >
> > Ah, Tim ! Si tu n'existais pas, il faudrait
> t'inventer
> > !
> >
> > Tiens, d'ailleurs, faudra que tu nous explique
> comment
> > on te reconnait, car franchement, connaitre ta
> cl=E9, =E7a
> > ne m'avance pas du tout du tout du tout
> T?l?charges la cl?, que tu importes dans PGP/GnuPG.
> Ensuite, avec
> GnuPG/PGP, tu v?rifies la signature du message. Le
> principe est que seul
> le possesseur de la cl? secr?te correspondant ? la
> cl? publique peut
> g?n?rer une signature correcte du message. C'est
> compris ?

et bien....j'ose ? peine le
dire...mais....euhhhh....non.

Raclement de gorge
Le principe, je vois
mais en pratique, je ne vois pas

C'est quoi GnuPG/PGP ?

> > Et tant que je ne comprend pas,
> > Tim , c'est Tim,
> > et Tim, c'est toi
> Erreur, Anthere, erreur !
> Sais-tu (oui, tu devrais avoir) qu'il y a pr?s d'une
> dizaine de Tim sur
> Wikipedia ? Il y aussi Athyrance, Athrystant,
> Athypique, etc...
> Aussi, j'esp?re que tu ne te refuseras pas ?
> comprendre...

Comprend tr?s bien

et Athybot ? C'est pas toi ? Ou Iala ?

Tr?s confus

> > > Greater-than-zero-size check is simple and
> efficient
> > > enough...
> >
> > It is simple. But it is slightly ridiculous.
> Certainly
> > not the best way to convince newcomers we are a
> great
> > resource
>
> Encore une histoire "d'image de marque", Anthere...
> Encore un diff?rend entre nous ? ce sujet.

un peu n?gatif tout ?a Tim...

Dommage

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from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
> (Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>):
>
> Just in case some other wikitech members don't know anything about
> sendmail, I'll explain Brion's *shudder*.  The sendmail.cf file is in
> more or less the original format that sendmail.cf files have been in
> for years: virtually indistinguishable in places from modem noise.
>
> When the fine folks at sendmail realized that the complexity of the
> config file had grown so high that virtually no one understood how to
> use it, they came up with a brilliant (?) idea.
>
> Now what you're supposed to do is write *another* config file, in M4
> format (a format no one else uses for anything) and compile that
> (using a program no one else uses for anything) to create a
> sendmail.cf.
>
> It's all frightening and insane.

...and the reason Piclab uses qmail.  Of course, sendmail does have
the advantage that it's the /standard/ brain-damaged mess.  "m4"
actually isn't that uncommon and isn't bad.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikitech-l] design changes

body:
> (Diana M Hsieh <diana at dianahsieh.com>):
> Hi folks,
>
> I spent most of today getting wikipedia3 up and running on my (currently
> private development) server.  Functionally, all seems to be working well.
> (Given that I'm a PERL and PostgreSQL kind of gal, I consider the working
> install to be nothing short of a small miracle!)
>
> My big challenge at present is to figure out how to substantially change
> the design of the site.  From what I can see, that design is determined by
> the combination of the style sheets, Skin.php, and OutputPage.php.  It
> looks like a small nightmare to fuss with.
>
> Is there some approach that might make it relatively easy or even somewhat
> easier?

It was/is my intent that the article content put out by OutputPage.php
be totally generic, with labelled semantic markup, whose physical
appearance is controlled /entirely/ by the stylesheet.  This makes it
serve faster, makes it cacheable, etc.  Likewise, things like sidebars
outside the article content are controlled by the Skin, which should
also output semantic markup controlled by the stylesheet.

To the extent the above is not true, it represents a failure on my part
that will be fixed at some point, so if it's not possible for you to
get the look you want without changing the article markup, please
report that as a bug.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
It will be very interesting to see the differences between Disinfopedia and Wikipedia articles, when they're on the same subject.

I'm betting that "fairness and accuracy" will launch scads more edit wars than "neutral point of view", but then Sheldon will probably just ban cranks who disagree with him anyway.

I can hardly wait to see his Global Warming article.

Ed Poor

P.S. surf's down due to cold weather (bummer, dude)


from_name: Toby Bartels

body:
Richard Grevers wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>Tarquin wrote:

>>>Don't include the name in the , I think that will could it acquire
>>>hovering properties (underlining, etc) which we don't want

>>Which browsers do this?  Is this more than just a guess?

>Yes - all those which comply with the standards: Opera, Mozilla, and IIRC,
>IE5/Mac.
>Opera7, incidentally, is the first browser to fully comply with the
>standards and allow hover styling on all elements. However, it is also true

Standards don't require underlining upon hovering for an  tag.
They don't require anything; this is up to the browser to determine.
(They do require the browser to listen if the  tag itself
specifies some sort of behaviour like this, but ours won't.)

Are you remembering these browsers as underlining  tags,
or are you remembering them as being compliant with standards?
I ask because IE5.1 for Mac OS X does not do anything with
under default settings; I just checked.

In any case
The header
 will still work.
This would be a good idea *anyway*, since people sometimes put
links inside of a header, but you can't nest  tags.

>>And I do suggest recognising the spaces as we normally do in our URLs,
>>to avoid confusing people by doing them differently.

>removing whitespace is NOT a matter of choice. What delimits the end of an
>URL? Whitespace.

I don't think that you understood my suggestion.
I suggest recognising the spaces *as*we*normally*do* in our URLs,
which you can see in the example above (and in my last post): underscores.
Thus, [[Main Page]] has the URL <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>,
and [[#The header]] can have the (local) URL <#The_header>.

>Finally, the name attribute is more or less deprecated in favour of "id".
>It doesn't appear at all by XHTML 1.1. As I mentioned previously, the only
>browser with any significant market share which doesn't support internal
>links to id is Netscape 4. Which I think we can live with. Netscape 4 users
>must surely be aware that many features of the modern web don't work for
>them.

"name" is not deprecated in HTML 4.01, which is what we use.
It has another point over "id", which is that "id" can't include
HTML character entities.  This is not so significant, however,
since we need to allow for an analogue of the pipe trick anyway,
in case people put markup inside of a header (as sometimes happens).
And Netscape 4 users will be fine as long as they're on the right page.
All the same, there's no need to switch from "name" to "id"
until we switch from HTML to XHTML, and "name" is slightly better for now.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Anthere wrote:
> Raclement de gorge Le principe, je vois mais en pratique, je ne vois
> pas
>
> C'est quoi GnuPG/PGP ?

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Tucci

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Have we given Michael enough chances to change his
ways?  I just went through his user contributions, and
reverted several changes to simple and verifiable
facts like when a band formed or released an album
when googling has revealed the original was right (or
at least, assumable as right until proven otherwise).
He's shown a complete disregard for community
standards and has never appeared to have any desire to
make a useful enyclopedia instead of a
list-of-badly-written-facts-that-Michael-has-made-up-ipedia.
 I'm a Wikipedia contributor, not his English tutor,
fact-checker or baby-sitter.

TUF-KAT

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Does anyone know of a nice html-mail stripping filter that we could run
>on messages being sent through the lists?

A first approximation that we (meaning you) could program directly
would be to catch all MIME-types of multipart/alternative
and strip them to the most plaintext alternative given.
This would have dealt with Stevertigo's posts in particular,
since he was sending both text/plain and text/html
combined into a multi-part/alternative post.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Voting on count has started

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> you can now vote on the new article count method to
> be used. Just add your
> nick (~~~) next to the option(s) you want to vote
> for/against as explained
> on the page. Please remember to log in on Meta
> first.
>
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_count_reform
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

Hello Erik

Thanks for showing so much understanding to
internationals. I have mentionned both on this list
(but it took my message about 12 hours to appear on
this list) and on the talk page (yesterday) that it
would be nice to give us more than 24 hours to
considerate all options, and to help those who don't
understand well english.

It would have been nice also to consider some
wikipedias could hardly be edited in the past three
days.

I reported some questions from wikipedians only an
hour ago. And some of the choices which were reported
in the talk page from the french wiki have not been
added on the meta page.

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Connection Ratio

body:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Thomas Corell wrote:
> After a short look in the archive:
>    AP    DB    ratio(DB/AP)
>   100   250    2.5    worked

(but not enough connections to handle traffic, many http connects were
dropped at peak activity)

>   240   250    1.042  errors
>   175   400    2.286  let's wait
>
> I thinks wikipedia's current scripts will need a 2.25 to 2.5 ratio to
> work properly.

The current worst-case scenario should be 3.0, if every persistent
connection breaks and every available http connection is used by a sysop
to run SQL queries (which presently opens a second connection under a
separate mysql user). Plus a small constant for manual connections for
maintenance or automatic updates of RDF feeds, backups, etc.

Since there are a relatively small number of sysops, and few of them will
be running queries simultaneously, we shouldn't need that much reserve
space.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
--- Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Anthere wrote:
> > Raclement de gorge Le principe, je vois mais en
> pratique, je ne vois
> > pas
> >
> > C'est quoi GnuPG/PGP ?
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Waouuuu, it's amazing what we can find on Wikipedia !
Thanks Brion

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from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
> Yup, User:Michael should be banned for repeatedly violating Wikipedia
> etiquette. See, e.g., [[User talk:Michael]].
>

I disagree. Unless his work is pure vandalism, we should allow him some
*room fo grown*. -SV


body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> > I reported some questions from wikipedians only an
> > hour ago. And some of the choices which were
> reported
> > in the talk page from the french wiki have not
> been
> > added on the meta page.
>
> If you absolutely must add more options, please do
> so in the next few
> hours.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Erik

*I* must not. Other people expressed other wishes.
Thanks Erik

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Hi,
>
>you can now vote on the new article count method to be used. Just add your
>nick (~~~) next to the option(s) you want to vote for/against as explained
>on the page. Please remember to log in on Meta first.
>
>http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_count_reform
>
I just did my duty, fearing all along that I would get an edit conflict
that would require me to start all over.  I have a couple observations.
 23 separate votes were needed.  The statistics questions were really a
completely different topic and would probably done as well on a separate
page.

In some of the questions there was considerable discussion between the
statement of the question and the voting area.  It would be helpful to
have the balloting come right after the question to make clear just what
we are voting on - or perhaps have a ballot sub-page where no discussion
would be allowed at all

Eclecticology


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The Wikipedia file format

body:
Richard Grevers wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>>Magnus Manske writes:

>>>>Why not "*.wiki"?

>>Simplicity!

>>I originally used "wiki markup language" (WML) on the grounds that
>>I wasn't going to distinguish between the different wiki markup languages.

>But wouldn't most systems try and parse that as Wireless Markup Language?
>Are there actually any three-letter combinations left unused by Mime types
>and software data formats?

That's already been mentioned.
I wasn't clear, but my comment after Magnus' proposal was one of approbation.
Since *.wml is no good for the reasons given, I support *.wiki.

-- Toby


from_name: Tom Parmenter

in_reply_to:
<3E70D20B.7090908@telus.net> (message from Ray Saintonge on Thu,
	13 Mar 2003 10:46:35 -0800)

body:
|From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
|X-Accept-Language: en-us
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:46:35 -0800
|
|Stevertigo wrote:
|
|>A little easier:
|>http://albertanism.freezope.org/
|>http://www.republika.pl/albertan/towas/
|>http://republika.pl/albertan/
|>
|>Oh BTW, reading these links alone makes you a member of his 'club' according
|>to the literature... :)
|>
|That sounds like the Mormon practice of retroactively baptizing long
|dead ancestors into the faith.
|
|Ec
|

If you go past these pages, you promise not to "hate", meaning, in our
context, that you promise not to delete any of his contributions.
Probably gives you a cookie that steals your soul.  Either price is
too high, so I gave  it a miss.

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] German Google search results

body:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Kurt Jansson wrote:
>
> Why do Google search results for German Wp articles look so ugly (google
> bot IP address, etc.) compared to the English ones?

It seems to vary from page to page, and probably from search to search.
Try:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ade.wikipedia.org+Fernsehen
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ade.wikipedia.org+Linux
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ade.wikipedia.org+Afghanistan

Some include 'ugly' bits, some don't, depending on what bits get picked up
in the summary. The lengths of various bits of text probably influence
this...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Jason Williams

subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 03:06:04PM +0100, Andre Engels wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>
> > This is one where setting a good example is useless,  because it isn't
> > noticed. I send email in plain text, and people still insist on responding
> > in HTML with settings like black-on-dark-gray. They don't realize that
> > plain text is a choice made for good reasons.
>
> There's also two other possibilities: They don't know that they're sending
> HTML, or they don't know how to change it.

Outlook Express 5 - Tools,Options,Send,"Mail Sending Format" - "Plain Text",OK

Outlook 2000 - Tools,Options,"Mail Format","Send in this message format" - "Plain Text"

If you're using something else, I'm sure somebody else can help...

--

jason at jasonandali.org.uk    http://www.jasonandali.org.uk/jason/


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 04:44:01AM -0800, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Now what you're supposed to do is write *another* config file, in M4
> format (a format no one else uses for anything) and compile that
> (using a program no one else uses for anything) to create a
> sendmail.cf.
>
> It's all frightening and insane.

m4 is not that unpopular - autoconf uses it


from_name: Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz

body:
On 13-03-2003, Gareth Owen wrote thusly :
> "Albert Jacher" <albertan at op.pl> writes:
> > User:Danny
> > User:Tannin
> > User:Notheruser
> > Stop deleting my text!!!
> User:Danny
> User:Tannin
> User:Notheruser
> Keep deleting his text!!!

This kind of nonsense was some time ago a nuisance to participants of
pl.sci.medycyna.

Please take good care (most likely delete) of all he writes.

Regards,
Kpjas.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Disinfopedia now open for business

body:
Stevertigo wrote:

>Im wondering when Sheldon was going to tell us about this:
>http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml
>
>Info:
>http://www.prwatch.org/spin/March_2003.html#1047445200

I wanted to send the first announcement out to the PR Watch internal
mailing list, and I also mentioned it a couple of days ago on
wikitech-l. My announcement to wikien-l went out earlier today. (I
get the digest, so I didn't see Stevertigo's comment until after I
sent the announcement here.)

Ed Poor wrote:

>I'm betting that "fairness and accuracy" will launch scads more edit
>wars than "neutral point of view", but then Sheldon will probably
>just ban cranks who disagree with him anyway.
>
>I can hardly wait to see his Global Warming article.

It will be interesting to see if "fairness and accuracy" launches
more edit wars than NPOV. What I'm *hoping* is that it will put more
onus on contributors to include documentation for their claims when
there is a disagreement. This whole project is an experiment, and I'm
quite curious myself to see how it unfolds.

So are you "Surfer Dude" on Disinfopedia? Censorious minds want to know. ;)

If you want to see my global warming articles, you don't have to wait
for Disinfopedia. Just check out the PR Watch archives.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:

> This is one where setting a good example is useless,  because it isn't
> noticed. I send email in plain text, and people still insist on responding
> in HTML with settings like black-on-dark-gray. They don't realize that
> plain text is a choice made for good reasons.

There's also two other possibilities: They don't know that they're sending
HTML, or they don't know how to change it. I have the second problem at my
home email - I noticed that it has options as to what size and lettertype
to send my email in, which I do not want at all. I just want to send and
receive plain text.

You might try doing as I do here, and search for a text-only email client.
Most HTML email consists actually of a double sending, once as plain text
and once as HTML. Emails that have only an HTML version are usually just
spam.

Andre Engels


body:
> Eclect: I just did my duty, fearing all along that I would get an edit
conflict
> that would require me to start all over.  I have a couple observations.
>  23 separate votes were needed.  The statistics questions were really a
> completely different topic and would probably done as well on a separate
> page.

Yeah, Id say, make a few changes only at a time...

> In some of the questions there was considerable discussion between the
> statement of the question and the voting area.  It would be helpful to
> have the balloting come right after the question to make clear just what
> we are voting on - or perhaps have a ballot sub-page where no discussion
> would be allowed at all

This stuff is better done with form submissions. I know the devs are
purists, but consider the possibility that soon we will have dozens of
participants, chiming in. -SV


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Connection Ratio

body:
Got one Brion ;)

Warning: Too many connections in
/usr/local/apache/htdocs-de/w/DatabaseFunctions.php on line 26
Konnte keine Verbindung zur Datenbank auf 127.0.0.1 herstellen
Too many connections

Next iteration step apache vs. DB connects please :)

Smurf (@de.wikipedia.org)
--
  --- Anthill Inside! ---


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

body:
|From: Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com>
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:41:57 -0800 (PST)
|
|
|--- Jay Bowks <jjbowks at adam.cheshire.net> wrote:
|> From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
|> > Option: Only articles that contain the word "Foo"
|> should be counted.
|> > 1 (very good): FooMaster[...]
|> > 5: KungFoo
|>
|> Objection! The assortium of world
|> language wikipedias object on the
|> grounds that the orthography of
|> "Foo" proves to be too anglo-centric.
|>
|> A more international spelling would
|> need to be accepted into the vote.
|>
|> A resolution calling for the immediate
|> dismissal of "Foo" and a motion for
|> re-spelling as "Fu" is now on the floor.
|>
|> "FuBar" would thus be more in tune
|> with "Fu Man Chu".
|>
|> Amicomicalmente ;-)
|> Jay B.
|
|btw, what does "foo" mean ?
|

You can find it all at

		  http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88

|__________________________________________________
|Do you Yahoo!?
|Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
|http://webhosting.yahoo.com
|_______________________________________________
|Wikipedia-l mailing list
|Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
|


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

body:
Yes, I was "Surfer Dude" over there, although actually my experiment with California slang is now over, and I've sent Dude home for a well-earned rest. (He left a poem, though.)

I'll probably log back in under my real name, and see what I can do to help you accomplish your goals over there, as I have time.

Please don't take my pessimism the wrong way: I actually do hope it works. Someone has to blow the lid off the _disinformatziya_ machine, and even if I think you've got the wrong slant in a couple of areas I believe your heart is in the right place.

Ed Poor


subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
What is your specific objection to user:Michael?

If he's just sloppy with facts, then keep following him around and quietly fixing his errors. Eventually, he'll either decide to be more careful or just get tired.

Is he reverting your fixes, even when you've documented that your fixes are accurate?

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Tucci [mailto:tucci528 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:35 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

Have we given Michael enough chances to change his
ways?  I just went through his user contributions, and
reverted several changes to simple and verifiable
facts like when a band formed or released an album
when googling has revealed the original was right (or
at least, assumable as right until proven otherwise).
He's shown a complete disregard for community
standards and has never appeared to have any desire to
make a useful enyclopedia instead of a
list-of-badly-written-facts-that-Michael-has-made-up-ipedia.
 I'm a Wikipedia contributor, not his English tutor,
fact-checker or baby-sitter.

TUF-KAT


subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
> He tore up Jimbo's Yellow Card, time he got the Red Card and
> was sent off for a week. If he's no better after that, we have real
> work to do. We don't need the grief and substantial waste of time this
> misguided and destructive individual produces.

More Wisdom from Michael: Im in favor of a suspension.

Yeah. I clicked that link. The link you've type above is
http://www.firstgaytime.com . It appears to be a gay porn site. You might
want to quote what it is you're referring to. -- [[User:Tarquin|Tarquin]]
00:14 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC)
  + : It was a joke. I was kidding. Of course didn't let girls suck [[George
Washington]]'s penis and let his wife suck on her friend who is a girl's
vagina.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The Wikipedia file format

body:
> (Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu>):
> Richard Grevers wrote:
>
> >Toby Bartels wrote:
>
> >>>Magnus Manske writes:
>
> >>>>Why not "*.wiki"?
>
> >>Simplicity!
>
> >>I originally used "wiki markup language" (WML) on the grounds that
> >>I wasn't going to distinguish between the different wiki markup languages.
>
> >But wouldn't most systems try and parse that as Wireless Markup Language?
> >Are there actually any three-letter combinations left unused by Mime types
> >and software data formats?
>
> That's already been mentioned.
> I wasn't clear, but my comment after Magnus' proposal was one of approbation.
> Since *.wml is no good for the reasons given, I support *.wiki.

Umm, what's wrong with ".txt"?  Since there isn't really a formalized
markup language yet, I think it would be confusing and likely cause
problems to use a file extension to imply that there is.  At some point
in the future, I certainly do plan to formalize and complete a wikipedia
markup language, and it will likely resemble the current one closely--
but it won't be identical.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Kurt Jansson

subject: [Wikitech-l] "Show preview before edit box and not after it" for anons

body:
Could we activate "Show preview before edit box and not after it" for
anons? It seems more intuitive for me (I'm not sure it's even worth an
option).

Kurt


from_name: tarquin

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Albert Jacher wrote:
>
>
>>Stop your hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!
>>
>>
>
>
>The Holy Prophet:
>http://www.republika.pl/albertan/towas/img/aj01.jpg
>
>
>
THAT's what he ACTUALLY looks like?
a guy in a suit????
oh dear oh dear.
In MY day, prophets had BEARDS. LONG BEARDS. ANd they didn't wash for a
LONG TIME.

amateur!

>
>


from_name: sannse

subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
While we are on the subject of e-mail formats, does anyone know why I get
Brion and Jonathan's messages to this list as attachments?

Regards,

sannse


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New functionality

body:
Hi,

I would like a new functionality. This may not be the right place to ask, but
I don't know where else could I do it.

Could it be possible that the left column could be configured by each user ?
For example, I would like to be able to add a few links which I use very often
("My Watchlist" in an other language, for example).

Thanks,
Yann
--
http://www.forget-me.net
Alternatives sur le Net
http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
1.  Michael makes up quotes on Talk pages and attributes them to people who never said them.
2. Micheal erases comments on Talk pages.
3. Michael refuses to address where he's getting his information from, and has said at least once, "It's none of your business."
4. His information is usually wrong, and, almost invariably, in bad English.  I don't have a problem with non-English speakers on the Wikipedia, but it would be nice if people noticed the corrections that others make in their work and don't keep making the same mistakes.
5. Michael is very confrontational when suggestions are made that he change his outlook.
Zoe
 "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:What is your specific objection to user:Michael?

If he's just sloppy with facts, then keep following him around and quietly fixing his errors. Eventually, he'll either decide to be more careful or just get tired.

Is he reverting your fixes, even when you've documented that your fixes are accurate?

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Tucci [mailto:tucci528 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:35 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

Have we given Michael enough chances to change his
ways? I just went through his user contributions, and
reverted several changes to simple and verifiable
facts like when a band formed or released an album
when googling has revealed the original was right (or
at least, assumable as right until proven otherwise).
He's shown a complete disregard for community
standards and has never appeared to have any desire to
make a useful enyclopedia instead of a
list-of-badly-written-facts-that-Michael-has-made-up-ipedia.
I'm a Wikipedia contributor, not his English tutor,
fact-checker or baby-sitter.

TUF-KAT
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
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from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Stop your stupid, hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

body:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:31:34 +0100, Albert Jacher
<albertan at op.pl> wrote:

> Albert Jacher, Speaker of God
> "If you do not support the good -- then you support the evil."
>
Maybe this is your problem - seeing everything as a black and white
argument.
There are those who oppose the same evil but who have a different view of
good,
those who see more than one good, those who feel unable to determine good
and evil,
and those (Wikipedians!) who wish to remain neutral.

--
Richard Grevers


subject: [Wikipedia-l] email formatting

body:
Brion wrote:

>These messages are cryptographically signed with PGP/GnuPG. (You may
note that mails I send from my university address are not currently
signed, but those I send from home are.)

>The signatures may show up as attachments in many mailers, but the
message contents themselves oughtn't...


from_name: Giskart

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: acapedia.org

body:
Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote in
news:20030313043132.44640.qmail at web40907.mail.yahoo.com:

>
> What is acapedia.org?  Why, when I go to it, does it send me to the
> main Wikipedia page?
>
> Zoe

Ask Rob.

http://www.bulgariantourism.com/category.php?c=reference

--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: [WikiEN-l]Japanese Emperors & broken links

body:
When I suggested he might want to be more cooperative, his response was:
"Yeah, I understand. It is partly due to that I don't think this conversation is constructive. I really don't want to partcipate in the debate about conventions and norms here. Anyway, I am not going to fix problems that I don't think big deal. People's expectations vary. While I think misspelling and gramatical errors are not a big deal, some care much about it."
Zoe
 james duffy <jtdirl at hotmail.com> wrote:Not merely are the names an utter mess and unrecognisable to people who are
not already knowledgeable about Japanese history (though the Japanese
Emperor CALLS HIMSELF Emperor of Japan in his own english language press
releases, Taku refuses point blank to allow the designation 'of Japan' to
appear in the title, or even allow Japan in brackets to appear to give the
unfortunate viewer the slightest clue as to which part of the world the
anonymous emperor was from - we already have a long list of undefined
Chinese emperors, which means people who don't immediately recognise chinese
from japanese will be presented with hundreds of emperors from unspecified
locations in the far east!)

But it is now even worse. He created double, treble and on occasion
quadruple redirects, screwing up up to a hundred links if not more. But he
refuses point blank to fix them. His most recent response to yet another
request to repair the mess was to say

I said I won't. -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]] 02:52 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC).

The problem is he keeps changing his ideas on just what the emperor should
be. We used to have 'Emperor 'x' of Japan' which he decided to change to
'Emperor X' or 'X Emperor'. Then he decided to change some of those to 'x
emperor'. Having done that, he discovered some of the emperors he so named
actually were empresses. So he did yet another 'rename' to 'x empress'. He
won't say whether emperor/empress should be with a capital E or a small e.
He won't say if he intends to change the long long list of Emperors with
capital Es to small es. And he point blank refuses to correct all the links
his messing around have screwed up, saying ''I love to clean up messes that
someone else made and I expect anyone else to do the same thing.''

He has also changed a page that was listed as Emperors of Japan and which
was changed to List of Japanese Emperors BACK to Emperors of Japan. At this
stage, the entire set of entries on Japanese emperors is screwed up, with
unrecognisable definitions, links that are so loaded with redirects that you
get lost in them, capital E emperors, small e emperors, emperors who have
become empresses, empresses who may still be emperors. And a determination
that the word Japan will never be allowed appear in the title. (To top it
all, he tried at one stage to say in one page that Japan is a republic!!!)

Any suggestions? (short of taking a couple of valium!)

JT

>The names of Japanese Emperors have become a total mess, thanks to the
>refusal of Taku to compromise and his desire to name people to disagree
>with him anti-Japanese.
>
>see http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TakuyaMurata and
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)
>
>Zoe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

_______________________________________________
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from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] design changes

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
>>(Diana M Hsieh <diana at dianahsieh.com>):
>>Is there some approach that might make it relatively easy or even somewhat
>>easier?

I had an "article-based" skin running at the test site some time ago,
but it seems to be gone :-(

The "source" ist still at
	http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AOmniCologneBlue
,though.

> To the extent the above is not true, it represents a failure on my part
> that will be fixed at some point, so if it's not possible for you to
> get the look you want without changing the article markup, please
> report that as a bug.

I think the layout/markup is as good as it can be without some template
system, "article-based" or not.

Magnus


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
> In principle I'm all for a ban, but in practice I don't think it will
> achieve anything. He'll only come back under different IP numbers (as he
> has done before) and make similar edits. It's better not to ban him so as
> to keep all his edits under the one name. They're easier to check and edit
> or revert that way, rather than them being spread out over a dozens of
> different IP numbers. As it is, he sometimes edits while not signed in,
but
> only rarely.
>
> At the same time, I don't think we should bother ourselves too much about
> trying to talk to him, explain things to him and that sort of thing. We've
> done enough of that already and we've just been sworn at and had our
> comments deleted.

> What we should do about the questionable details he's been adding about
> album release dates, Grammy winners and that sort of thing (whether we
> should remove them all because some have been shown to be incorrect, or
> keep them until they are proven to be wrong even though they're not very
> easy things to check), I don't know.

Hm. Anything not easily verifyable, perhaps even track times, etc, should be
reverted, I think. Ive checked a few of his 'facts' before, and they were
ok... What I really want to do with this eleven year old is call up his
Mommy and get him busted. -SV


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> ...and the reason Piclab uses qmail.  Of course, sendmail does have
> the advantage that it's the /standard/ brain-damaged mess.  "m4"
> actually isn't that uncommon and isn't bad.

There are more than 2 MTA's around the world. sendmail is one of the
oldest and powerful ones. A lot of MTAs will do a fine job in smaller
and less complex environments sendmail is able to handle. So don't lets
start to discuss which one is best.

Smurf (@de.wikipedia.de)
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] Connection Ratio

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Okay, we're now at mysql max 400, apache max 175. This will allow
> *every* apache process to double up on connections and still have a few
> spare. Grumble grumble.

After a short look in the archive:
   AP    DB    ratio(DB/AP)
  100   250    2.5    worked
  240   250    1.042  errors
  175   400    2.286  let's wait

I thinks wikipedia's current scripts will need a 2.25 to 2.5 ratio to
work properly.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: acapedia.org

body:
Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote in
news:20030313202913.23249.qmail at web40903.mail.yahoo.com:

>
> I'm afraid this doesn't answer my question.
> Zoe

The registration of the domain is done on 30-Jan-2003

I can not find a name of the owner.

It seems to be a copy of Wikipedia EN but whit the name "acapedia".

There are a lot of recent postings about acapedia in directorys.

http://www.google.be/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-
8&sa=G&q=%22acapedia.org%22

A page from Acapedia
http://www.google.be/search?q=cache:AJZD1gGtXNIC:acapedia.org/aca/Greece+&h
l=en&ie=UTF-8

I supose the have problems whit there server and pointing the traffic to
Wikipedia as a backup.

Mayby wikipedia can work whit them and send the traffic to Acapedia when
Wikipedia is down.

--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


from_name: Tucci

subject: [WikiEN-l] re:Michael

body:
<What is your specific objection to user:Michael?

<If he's just sloppy with facts, then keep following
him <around and
<quietly fixing his errors. Eventually, he'll either
<decide to be more
<careful or just get tired.

<Is he reverting your fixes, even when you've
documented <that your fixes
<are accurate?

He has reverted at least some changes, at [[Crass]].
I'm not sure that's really the point though.  Why
should I (or anyone) else have to spend time
double-checking his facts?  While everybody makes
mistakes, he has such a huge proportion of mistakes in
easily verifiable facts like release dates for albums,
refuses to discuss anything with anybody, blanks talk
pages that offer suggestions, demands that others not
question his actions -- if this isn't bannable, what
is?

I have better things to do with my time, on Wikipedia
and in general, than to double-check his facts and fix
his atrocious spelling, grammar, punctuation and
style, in articles about crappy albums by bands I
don't like.

While I can see some value in allowing Michael to grow
into a valued contributor, I
A: doubt it's possible
B: doubt it's worth it even if it is possible -- and
until it has happened, he needs someone to look over
his shoulder at every edit, or else the music section
of the Wikipedia will be full of badly-written and
barely intelligible facts straight from Michael's
imagination.  I'm not willing to be his editor -- I'd
be perfectly happy to help him understand some of the
mistakes he's making (I gather English isn't his first
language, as he makes highly unusual but
complex-rule-based errors), but he has shown no desire
to listen, understand or apply any of the advice I or
others have given him (see [[User
talk:64.175.250.115]] for some advice I gave him
awhile ago, but in which there has been absolutely not
a shred of improvement).

I'm sure we all have better things to do than shout at
a brick wall that, on a good day, does no harm to the
Wikipedia.

TUF-KAT

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Paul Ebermann

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: email formatting

body:
"sannse" skribis:

> While we are on the subject of e-mail formats, does anyone know why I get
> Brion and Jonathan's messages to this list as attachments?

They are sended PGP-signed (multipart/signed), and
your Mail/Newsreader doesn't know how to handle
this. (My one also doesn't.)

I help myself by pressing Ctrl-F3, if I'm curious
what is in it.

Paul


from_name: Jay Bowks

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

body:
From: "Ray Saintonge" <saintonge at telus.net>
> >Other French dialects might spell it "Fou" (mad) or "Faux" (wrong) ...
;o)
> For the benefit of those who aren't aware, this is "mad" in the British
> rather than the American sense. :-)


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Hi,

you can now vote on the new article count method to be used. Just add your
nick (~~~) next to the option(s) you want to vote for/against as explained
on the page. Please remember to log in on Meta first.

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_count_reform

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

body:
Imho, the best way of to find if an text is an article or not is just to see
if there are a link inside.
I think there are only few real articles that don't contain [[ ]].

Aoineko

> Hi,
>
> Other French dialects might spell it "Fou" (mad) or "Faux" (wrong) ... ;o)
>
> Yann
>
> Le Jeudi 13 Mars 2003 04:04, Sean Barrett a ?crit :
> > Feaux?
> >
> > From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
> >
> > > Option: Only articles that contain the word "Foo" should be counted.
> > > 1 (very good): FooMaster[...]
> > > 5: KungFoo
> >
> > Objection! The assortium of world
> > language wikipedias object on the
> > grounds that the orthography of
> > "Foo" proves to be too anglo-centric.
> >
> > A more international spelling would
> > need to be accepted into the vote.
> >
> > A resolution calling for the immediate
> > dismissal of "Foo" and a motion for
> > re-spelling as "Fu" is now on the floor.
> >
> > "FuBar" would thus be more in tune
> > with "Fu Man Chu".
>
> --
> http://www.forget-me.net
> Alternatives sur le Net
> http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
> gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA
> _______________________________________________
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> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
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>


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

body:
You wrote:

>Yes, I was "Surfer Dude" over there, although actually my experiment
>with California slang is now over, and I've sent Dude home for a
>well-earned rest. (He left a poem, though.)

I saw the poem...not bad. Did you write it?
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
> Have we given Michael enough chances to change his
> ways?  I just went through his user contributions, and
> reverted several changes to simple and verifiable
> facts like when a band formed or released an album
> when googling has revealed the original was right (or
> at least, assumable as right until proven otherwise).
> He's shown a complete disregard for community
> standards and has never appeared to have any desire to
> make a useful enyclopedia instead of a
> list-of-badly-written-facts-that-Michael-has-made-up-ipedia.
>  I'm a Wikipedia contributor, not his English tutor,
> fact-checker or baby-sitter.

Yup, User:Michael should be banned for repeatedly violating Wikipedia
etiquette. See, e.g., [[User talk:Michael]].

Regards,

Erik


body:
> I reported some questions from wikipedians only an
> hour ago. And some of the choices which were reported
> in the talk page from the french wiki have not been
> added on the meta page.

If you absolutely must add more options, please do so in the next few
hours.

Thanks,

Erik


body:
Dear coders!

Why do Google search results for German Wp articles look so ugly (google
bot IP address, etc.) compared to the English ones?

See
http://www.google.com/search?q=Babrak%20Karmal
and
http://www.google.com/search?q=Daseinsvorsorge

Kurt


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Re: The Wikipedia file format

body:
Richard Grevers wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:54:55 -0800, Toby Bartels
> <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:
>
>> Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>>
>>> Magnus Manske writes:
>>
>>
>>>> Why not "*.wiki"?
>>>
>>
>> Simplicity!
>>
>>> There is more than one wiki and no file format matches the other.
>>> Thus:
>>> "*.wikipedia".
>>
>>
>> I originally used "wiki markup language" (WML) on the grounds that
>> I wasn't going to distinguish between the different wiki markup
>> languages.
>>
> But wouldn't most systems try and parse that as Wireless Markup Language?
> Are there actually any three-letter combinations left unused by Mime
> types and software data formats?
>
Yes:  .wff for "wikipedia file format" seems not to be used by anyone
else.  (And then there's the other meaning of wff for amusement's sake).

-- Neil


from_name: Graham Burnett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stevertigo" <stevertigo at attbi.com>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Michael

> > Yup, User:Michael should be banned for repeatedly violating Wikipedia
> > etiquette. See, e.g., [[User talk:Michael]].
> >
>
> I disagree. Unless his work is pure vandalism, we should allow him some
> *room fo grown*. -SV
>

He seems to be busy changing Tokerboys top 100 records at the moment, adding
lots of eric Clapton records...


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bonjour !

body:
On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 17:53, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
> Bonjour Brion,
> I have the impression that someone is playing with my pseudo on the meta.
> I have a idea of who, but it's not important.
>
> The problem is I can't login, and I didn't received a new password
> even if I ask to send one by mail.

The email address was set to 'philippe1x1x at yahoo.com'; the password was
set to the same as that of user 'Pour certains, pour d'autres'.

I've reset your e-mail address and cleared the password, you should be
able to request a new password.

> It's fun, my identity robber improved my page on the meta :oP
> And added me in the Legion of Trolls .
> Can you please check it.

Guillaume, please check the contribs:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=Aoineko

Which of these are/are not by you?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: Japanese Emperors & broken links

body:
james duffy wrote:
>Not merely are the names an utter mess
>and unrecognisable to people who are
>not already knowledgeable about Japanese
>history

And what about the people who are not already knowedgeable about particle
physics or any other particular subject they are looking-up? Should those
page titles also have extra meta-like information in their titles in order to
make sure that the poor saps who know nothing about the subject don't even
have to enter the first line of the article to know anything about it? Should
our article on the Z boson be placed at [[Z boson (elementary particle)]]
even though there isn't anything else called Z boson to disambiguate from?

In addition, a properly formed sentence were such a term would be linked from
/would already give that type of information/. So why is it necessary to have
this information in the title when it is /not/ needed for disambiguation
purposes? (Aside: if anything this opens up the meta tag debate again - but
that kind of meta data would not be in the article title)

The "of country" naming convention was created to /disambiguate/ (NOT
contextualize) European monarchs because there are very real and intractable
ambiguity problems with their names. No such ambiguity problems exist for
Asian Emperors because each name is a Romanization of names in different
languages and no common names such as "Henry" or "Charles" existed between
those different languages. Therefore the only time there would be any
ambiguity would between different dynasties in the /same/ country but these
are rare from what I've read so can be taken on a case-by-case basis. Either
way "of country" isn't needed for disambiguation (it also isn't used by any
other encyclopedia I've checked - see below).

>(though the Japanese Emperor CALLS
>HIMSELF Emperor of Japan in his own english
>language press releases, Taku refuses point
>blank to allow the designation 'of Japan' to appear
>in the title,

<devil's advocate> Fidel Castro calls himself President of the Republic of
Cuba in his English language press releases. Shouldn't "of Cuba" be placed at
the end of his name? You have mentioned the "permanence" of a person's
position as monarch as a reason why "of country" should be placed at the end
of their names. So why not include "Presidents for life"? What about that
poor hypothetical 13-year old who knows nothing about Cuban history.
Shouldn't he be able to instantly recognize the name "Fidel Castro" as
belonging to a lifelong ruler of Cuba without having to read the first
sentence of Castro's Wikipedia article or pay attention to the context from
where his name is linked? </devil's advocate>

Rubbish.

Taku isn't the only person who has pointed out that it is not at all necessary
to place "of country" anywhere where there isn't a demonstrated ambiguity
problem.

>or even allow Japan in brackets to
>appear to give the unfortunate viewer the slightest
>clue as to which part of the world the anonymous
>emperor was from - we already have a long list of
>undefined Chinese emperors, which means people
>who don't immediately recognise chinese from japanese
>will be presented with hundreds of emperors from
>unspecified locations in the far east!)

Again this type of information goes in articles; first the sentence from where
the term is linked should always give some clue as to who the person is
(therefore when [[Hirohito]] is first mentioned/linked in an article he
should be introduced as the Emperor of Japan), second, on the first line of
the article on Hirohito it should mention that he was the Emperor of Japan.

Same thing for any other biography in Wikipedia. ////The context is
established from where the article is linked and on the first line of the
article in question////.

Also, because I cannot save edits any article over 300 bytes right now (due to
technical problems on my end) I'm posting here a response to a recent posting
you have placed on
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)
. As you can see below /no other/ encyclopedia places "of country" at the end
of Asian despot names (this is in direct opposition to a claim you made).

Per your last response to me JT:<br>
Contextualization is for the articles ''not'' the titles of articles. And all
western students have at least some basic training in the sciences - so that
is not an argument (Your discipline is not fundamentally different than mine
in that respect - there is a very large degree of public ignorance in both
fields but that doesn't mean we title subjects so that each one can be
recognized by people who don't know a thing about the subject - we shouldn't
dumb Wikipedia down so much so that it is unusable by experts). Also, nobody
is objecting to Japanese monarchs being called "Emperor of Japan", what
people ''are'' objecting to is the placement of this information in the title
of the article ''when there is no demonstrated need for disambiguation''. As
for "what other encyclopedias do" here are some results on looking up
"Hirohito." Not ''one'' of them have the entries titled as "Hirohito of
Japan" or "Emperor Hirohito of Japan."
*[ http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761555671
Encarta]
*[ http://education.yahoo.com/search/be?lb=t&p=url%3Ah/hirohito Britannica
Concise]
*[
http://www.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=505918&secid=.-&JServSessionIdxrefer=lox3nbxb8t&hh=1
Xrefer] It does have his birth/death dates in the title but not as title
text.
*[ http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/h/hirohito.asp Encyclopedia.com]
and,
*[ http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=41436&tocid=0&query=hirohito&ct=
Britannica.com]

BTW, searching for "Hirohito of Japan" on Britannica and Encyclopedia.com
doesn't bring up an article on Hirohito. So if no other encyclopedia is using
the "of country" for Asian monarchs then why should we be using it? In
addition, because we are a wiki it makes ''even less'' sense for us to do so
because it requires us to type unneeded extra text and it also requires
writers and readers to be aware of our odd nomenclature. In short, '''K'''eep
'''I'''t '''S'''hort and '''S'''imple. After seeing the above results I
consider the case closed. --mav

WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 10]]


from_name: Tony Wilson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Lots of a weird error message

body:
I guess the wizards that run this thing know all about this, but just
in case - I'm getting HEAPS of troubles these last few days. Not just
the usual slowdowns and outages, a different one. The most common error
message looks like this:

> Warning: Too many connections in /usr/local/apache/htdocs/w/DatabaseFunctions.php on line 26
> Could not connect to DB on 127.0.0.1
> Too many connections
> If this error persists after reloading and clearing your browser cache, please notify the Wikipedia developers.

It's not my browser, because I've had it so far under: Windows 2000
with SP3 with Opera 6.05, Mozilla 1.3B, IE 6.0 & Netscape 4.04, and
also on a different machine at a different location on ECS (OS/2 4.5,
sort of) with Mozilla 1.3B. Last night the 'pedia was unusable for
quite a few hours, then it was back again tonight.No problems
connecting to other sites, only the 'pedia. Being in Australia, most of
my connect time is off-peak, while the USAians are all asleep. Except
the real addicts, of course.

I guess it's a known problem, but I thought I better mention it just in
case.


body:
> The statistics questions were really a
> completely different topic and would probably done as well on a separate
> page.

I agree, an anonymous user added those, they should probably have been
removed earlier. It appears that with average voting in particular, there
needs to be a more organized process to *select* the options to be
presented. This, IMHO, should work well via consensus finding as usually
the criteria are purely logical.

Other than that, I like the way it goes. I am learning a lot about the
opinions of the different participants.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Lee Pilich

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
At 17:02 13/03/2003 -0800, SV wrote:
> > He tore up Jimbo's Yellow Card, time he got the Red Card and
> > was sent off for a week. If he's no better after that, we have real
> > work to do. We don't need the grief and substantial waste of time this
> > misguided and destructive individual produces.
>
>More Wisdom from Michael: Im in favor of a suspension.

In principle I'm all for a ban, but in practice I don't think it will
achieve anything. He'll only come back under different IP numbers (as he
has done before) and make similar edits. It's better not to ban him so as
to keep all his edits under the one name. They're easier to check and edit
or revert that way, rather than them being spread out over a dozens of
different IP numbers. As it is, he sometimes edits while not signed in, but
only rarely.

At the same time, I don't think we should bother ourselves too much about
trying to talk to him, explain things to him and that sort of thing. We've
done enough of that already and we've just been sworn at and had our
comments deleted.

What we should do about the questionable details he's been adding about
album release dates, Grammy winners and that sort of thing (whether we
should remove them all because some have been shown to be incorrect, or
keep them until they are proven to be wrong even though they're not very
easy things to check), I don't know.

lp (camembert)
WikiKarma: [[Symphony No. 3 (Mahler)]]


from_name: Kurt Jansson

body:
Hi Brion!

> On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Kurt Jansson wrote:
> >
> > Why do Google search results for German Wp articles look so ugly
(google
> > bot IP address, etc.) compared to the English ones?
>
> It seems to vary from page to page, and probably from search to
search.
> Try:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ade.wikipedia.org+Fernsehen
> http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ade.wikipedia.org+Linux
> http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ade.wikipedia.org+Afghanistan
>
> Some include 'ugly' bits, some don't, depending on what bits get
picked up
> in the summary. The lengths of various bits of text probably influence
> this...

So there's no way to hide the ugly bits from googlebot?

Kurt


from_name: Dan Koehl

subject: [Wikitech-l]  Google search results

body:
Strange Google results seem to be on more wikis like the Swedish.

Hopefully those IP marks can be removed.

I found something when I serched for the word elephantkeeper on Google with http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=elephantkeeper&btnG=Google+Search

The second hit is : http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Elephantkeeper&action=edit

Do we want serchengines to list action=edit on all pages?

Dan Koehl


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikitech-l]  Google search results

body:
Dan Koehl wrote:
> The second hit is : http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Elephantkeeper&action=edit
> Do we want serchengines to list action=edit on all pages?

No, that is not wanted.  That is why the page contains a
   <meta NAME="ROBOTS" CONTENT="NOINDEX, NOFOLLOW">
header (as you can see if you "view source").  Google usually respects
this.  It is strange that they still index this edit page.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


from_name: james duffy

body:
Not merely are the names an utter mess and unrecognisable to people who are
not already knowledgeable about Japanese history (though the Japanese
Emperor CALLS HIMSELF Emperor of Japan in his own english language press
releases, Taku refuses point blank to allow the designation 'of Japan' to
appear in the title, or even allow Japan in brackets to appear to give the
unfortunate viewer the slightest clue as to which part of the world  the
anonymous emperor was from - we already have a long list of undefined
Chinese emperors, which means people who don't immediately recognise chinese
from japanese will be presented with hundreds of emperors from unspecified
locations in the far east!)

But it is now even worse. He created double, treble and on occasion
quadruple redirects, screwing up up to a hundred links if not more. But he
refuses point blank to fix them. His most recent response to yet another
request to repair the mess was to say

I said I won't. -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]] 02:52 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC).

The problem is he keeps changing his ideas on just what the emperor should
be. We used to have 'Emperor 'x' of Japan' which he decided to change to
'Emperor X' or 'X Emperor'. Then he decided to change some of those to 'x
emperor'. Having done that, he discovered some of the emperors he so named
actually were empresses. So he did yet another 'rename' to 'x empress'. He
won't say whether emperor/empress should be with a capital E or a small e.
He won't say if he intends to change the long long list of Emperors with
capital Es to small es. And he point blank refuses to correct all the links
his messing around have screwed up, saying ''I love to clean up messes that
someone else made and I expect anyone else to do the same thing.''

He has also changed a page that was listed as Emperors of Japan and which
was changed to List of Japanese Emperors BACK to Emperors of Japan. At this
stage, the entire set of entries on Japanese emperors is screwed up, with
unrecognisable definitions, links that are so loaded with redirects that you
get lost in them, capital E emperors, small e emperors, emperors who have
become empresses, empresses who may still be emperors. And a determination
that the word Japan will never be allowed appear in the title. (To top it
all, he tried at one stage to say in one page that Japan is a republic!!!)

Any suggestions? (short of taking a couple of valium!)

JT

>The names of Japanese Emperors have become a total mess, thanks to the
>refusal of Taku to compromise and his desire to name people to disagree
>with him anti-Japanese.
>
>see http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TakuyaMurata and
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)
>
>Zoe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

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