from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On Wed, 2003-03-05 at 14:22, Chuck Smith wrote:
> > We can
> > probably get away with it, since we have an
> > educational goal, no
> > commercial interests, and are not an attractive
> > target for lawsuits,
> > but selling (extracts from) Wikipedia in any form is
> > made almost
> > impossible by these fair use landmines.
>
> >From what I understood.  I could go out tomorrow,
> print Wikipedia as an 20-volume encyclopedia set and
> start selling it tomorrow, without having any legal
> problems.  Am I wrong here?  Perhaps a CD-format would
> be more practical though.  ;-)
>
Let's say you don't make any formatting modifications or changes, and
just sell Wikipedia in bound form. Your obligation then essentially
becomes to "take reasonably prudent steps...to ensure that [the version
of Wikipedia.org that you used] will remain thus accessible...until at
least one year after the last time you distribute" your bound copies.

Those reasonably prudent steps could certainly involve paying Bomis
something to keep the archive you used accessible.

If you make any changes to the files, then you can't rely on what's on
wikipedia.org; you'd have to put up your own website with the modified
files.

That's the difference from public domain.


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Pb with the server ?

body:
Hi,

What's happening with the server ?
I can't access any page.
Is it just over loaded or what ?

Thanks,
Yann

--
http://www.forget-me.net
Alternatives sur le Net
http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use question (was: question about fdl)

body:
Axel Boldt wrote:

>
>
>
>At the very least, every image page needs to state clearly where the
>image came from and why it can be used.
>
>

Agreed.
On Wikipedia, if someone complains, we can just delete the image.
but a paper or CD version would have to be cautious -- because if
someone complained we'd have to pulp or destroy a whole batch, probably.


list: wikien-l

from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Lists which are sheer nonsense

body:
Of course you did.  You're just trying to throw semantics around to prove an untenable point.
Zoe
 Sheldon Rampton <sheldon.rampton at verizon.net> wrote:Zoe wrote:

>That's nonsense. "anti-American" does not carry the same use of the
>word as "American".

I see. So what you're saying is that the "American" in
"anti-American" is a different word entirely than the "American" in
"pro-American" or "American values." Wow. I had no idea! :)
--
--------------------------------
| Sheldon Rampton
| Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
| Author of books including:
| Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
| Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
| Mad Cow USA
| Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Lists which are sheer nonsense

body:
Is there something FORCING you to read these lists you dislike so much?  Don't you have the option of ignoring them?
Zoe
 rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
Okay. People are actively editing [[List of songs whose title does not appear
in their lyrics]]. Four or five people have assured me I am a rotten git for
daring to question the necessity of this article, but I can't help it. I think
the fact that people created, discussed, and edited this article is just wrong.
Even worse, people I respect (e.g. Tannin and Tarquin) are working on this
article. I'm willing to tolerate most lists, even [[Lists of Americans]], or
whatever it's called now. But this just caps it for me.

I'd like to point out "What Wikipedia is not" #11:

# List repository of loosely associated topics such as; quotations, aphorisms
# or persons (But of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their
# entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly
# contributed to the list topic).

This may not be definitive, but it at least suggests that we have some
guidelines for what sort of lists should be considered appropriate, and what
are total trash. I feel this particular list tips over into total trash. I have
been assured that this list is valuable as an article, because people might be
interested in it for its own sake (i.e. someone might want to know what songs
have titles that don't appear in their lyrics), but I have a hard time taking
this seriously. Are we going to insert every absurd contortion that the human
mind can come up with into Wikipedia in the form of a list? E.g. [[List of
left-handed Presidents]], [[List of towns with forty-story buildings]], [[List
of drinks that contain banana]], etc., etc., etc.

At some point this has got to stop. Can we draw a line in the sand, here? The
trash lists have got to go. If there's not a clear organizing reason for it,
then it shouldn't exist.

Saurabh

------
"Slugs! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't speak, they can't operate
machinery... I mean, are we not in the hands of a lunatic?"
-- The Evil One describes the Supreme Being, "Time Bandits"

In message <200302281914.OAA22276 at TheWorld.com>, Tom Parmenter said:
>Lists serve as an organizing tool. They show what we have and don't
>have. [[List of people from the United States]] is too broad to be of
>much use, but [[List of boogie woogie musicians]] is invaluable, both
>as an aid to those of us working on the topic, but also the reader.
>There may never be a full article on Drive'em Down, the legendary New
>Orleans piano player, but he's in the Wikipedia, and in a place where
>his contributions can be best understood.
>
>In addition to their use as indexes, the "Related changes" and "What
>links here" are helpful to writers working in a particular area and
>the talk pages serve as a meeting place.
>
>There are all kinds of lists.
>
>
>The best lists are:
>
>- confined to a single graspable topic. If the topic is vast, the
>better lists will have been largely assembled by some outside
>authority, Hall of Fame or the like.
>
>- annotated, why is the person place or thing on the list?
>
>- organized in a useful fashion. They can be grouped by topic, in
>alphabetical order, or chronological, whatever helps make the list
>more useful.
>
>Further observations:
>
>- [[List of novelists]] is barely tolerable. It is huge, but at least
>it is grouped by an amalgam of language/country identifiers that is
>not intellectually rigorous. but works for the reader.
>
>- [[List of gay movies]] is in alphabetical order and unannotated. I
>have been arguing on thetalk page that if it were annotated (why is
>''Rebel Without a Cause'' a gay movie) and in chronological order
>(showing changing attitudes) it would be more useful (and interesting,
>always a big number with me).
>
>- [[List of musical topics]] is vast, alphabetical, and unannotated, but
>it shows the scope of Wikipedia and give music-minded writers
>something to chew on.
>
>- The alphabetical biography lists are much more useful if they are
>annotated, which has been a side project of mine.
>
>- [[One hit wonders]] went immediately off the tracks. It started as
>a list ofthose odd but classic numbers but was quickly mired down by
>objections that so-and-so had had two hits (one of which was never
>heard of and did not matter) and also by diligent folks with reference
>books listing every song that had ever been on any hit parade for at
>least a week.
>
>I'm very pro-list, and willing to take the good with the bad.
>
>If [[List of Mexican restaurants in Los Angeles]] shows up, so be it.
>[[List of glass harmonicists]] will soon be along to make up for it.
>
>Tom Parmenter
>Ortolan88
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: rednblack at alum.mit.edu

body:
Okay. People are actively editing [[List of songs whose title does not appear
in their lyrics]]. Four or five people have assured me I am a rotten git for
daring to question the necessity of this article, but I can't help it. I think
the fact that people created, discussed, and edited this article is just wrong.
Even worse, people I respect (e.g. Tannin and Tarquin) are working on this
article. I'm willing to tolerate most lists, even [[Lists of Americans]], or
whatever it's called now. But this just caps it for me.

I'd like to point out "What Wikipedia is not" #11:

# List repository of loosely associated topics such as; quotations, aphorisms
# or persons (But of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their
# entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly
# contributed to the list topic).

This may not be definitive, but it at least suggests that we have some
guidelines for what sort of lists should be considered appropriate, and what
are total trash. I feel this particular list tips over into total trash. I have
been assured that this list is valuable as an article, because people might be
interested in it for its own sake (i.e. someone might want to know what songs
have titles that don't appear in their lyrics), but I have a hard time taking
this seriously. Are we going to insert every absurd contortion that the human
mind can come up with into Wikipedia in the form of a list? E.g. [[List of
left-handed Presidents]], [[List of towns with forty-story buildings]], [[List
of drinks that contain banana]], etc., etc., etc.

At some point this has got to stop. Can we draw a line in the sand, here? The
trash lists have got to go. If there's not a clear organizing reason for it,
then it shouldn't exist.

Saurabh

------
"Slugs! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't speak, they can't operate
machinery... I mean, are we not in the hands of a lunatic?"
  -- The Evil One describes the Supreme Being, "Time Bandits"

In message <200302281914.OAA22276 at TheWorld.com>, Tom Parmenter said:
>Lists serve as an organizing tool.  They show what we have and don't
>have.  [[List of people from the United States]] is too broad to be of
>much use, but [[List of boogie woogie musicians]] is invaluable, both
>as an aid to those of us working on the topic, but also the reader.
>There may never be a full article on Drive'em Down, the legendary New
>Orleans piano player, but he's in the Wikipedia, and in a place where
>his contributions can be best understood.
>
>In addition to their use as indexes, the "Related changes" and "What
>links here" are helpful to writers working in a particular area and
>the talk pages serve as a meeting place.
>
>There are all kinds of lists.
>
>
>The best lists are:
>
>- confined to a single graspable topic.  If the topic is vast, the
>better lists will have been largely assembled by some outside
>authority, Hall of Fame or the like.
>
>- annotated, why is the person place or thing on the list?
>
>- organized in a useful fashion.  They can be grouped by topic, in
>alphabetical order, or chronological, whatever helps make the list
>more useful.
>
>Further observations:
>
>- [[List of novelists]] is barely tolerable.  It is huge, but at least
>it is grouped by an amalgam of language/country identifiers that is
>not intellectually rigorous. but works for the reader.
>
>- [[List of gay movies]] is in alphabetical order and unannotated.   I
>have been arguing on thetalk page that if it were annotated (why is
>''Rebel Without a Cause'' a gay movie) and in chronological order
>(showing changing attitudes) it would be more useful (and interesting,
>always a big number with me).
>
>- [[List of musical topics]] is vast, alphabetical, and unannotated, but
>it shows the scope of Wikipedia and give music-minded writers
>something to chew on.
>
>- The alphabetical biography lists are much more useful if they are
>annotated, which has been a side project of mine.
>
>- [[One hit wonders]] went immediately off the tracks.  It started as
>a list ofthose odd but classic numbers but was quickly mired down by
>objections that so-and-so had had two hits (one of which was never
>heard of and did not matter) and also by diligent folks with reference
>books listing every song that had ever been on any hit parade for at
>least a week.
>
>I'm very pro-list, and willing to take the good with the bad.
>
>If [[List of Mexican restaurants in Los Angeles]] shows up, so be it.
>[[List of glass harmonicists]] will soon be along to make up for it.
>
>Tom Parmenter
>Ortolan88
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

body:
Okay, we've gone a bit loony on the list thing, but it's all in good fun. No one has to *read* these lists.

I personally ignore all the "list of" articles. I have yet to find any useful information in them. If I want to find Canadians, for example, I just use the index (er, the Search feature).

It's better than a POV edit war...

Uncle Ed


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: article length and fragment identifiers/pointers (Re: HTML tag)

body:
Tom Parmenter <tompar at world.std.com> writes:

> Right again, requiring emacs for Wikipedia editing would be a big
> mistake.

I'd ask for making Emacs a requirement ;)  I'd require a minimized
SGML, but that's a completely different story I don't want to discuss
at the moment.

> A lot of the emacs gestures are already in the editor, at least the
> easy ones like c-a, c-e, c-k, c-t.

Yes, I'm away of those keycombo (I'm using Mozilla's builtin editor).
But many a lot key are either missing or, more dangerous, act
different.  That's merely my fault: using lynx or w3m you can call an
external editor--now the question is how well lynx will play with
wikipedia.

> It would be nice if more of them were there, silently, for those of us
> whose fingers go that way first anyway.

Agreed.  But it will never work as nice as it would using Emacs.  I'm
used to press the "Alt" labeled key for word boundery related actions
(moving, transposing, marking, cutting) and I use Ctrl-w to cut ("kill")
a marked region.  In the past it already happened that I lost some
edited paragraphs pressing "wrong" keys.

> And, an emacs minor mode for use on our own editors  would also be
> nice.

Yes.  Most probably you can base it on emacs-wiki.el; I'll check it out.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] sys admin?

body:
how could I become a system administrator?

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
>how could I become a system administrator?

First we need to know what your user name is. Next we need somebody to quickly
verify that you pretty much know how the place works and most importantly are
not the type of person that would abuse admin powers (that is, you are not a
vandal or troll). This describes nearly all old timers and most users that
have been editing more or less daily for a month or so. I would bet it also
describes you but we do need to know what username you edit under.

Fred Bauder wrote:
> It would be helpful if I were given sysop status. I need to be able to
> access the text of protected pages and need to learn how the sysop system
> works. I am working on an implementation of the wikipedia3 software at
>
> http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info
>
> I could also do some work as a sysop on wikipedia itself.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fred Bauder

Even though Fred and I haven't got along very well in the past I see little
reason why he shouldn't be an Admin.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
the usual at [[March 3]]


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fair use question

body:
Axel:

> I would favor a policy against all fair use photos.

That would seriously undermine the quality of Wikipedia as an educational
resource. We cannot realistically acquire licenses, so fair use is often
the only way we can get photos, esp. of dead people or important historic
events, into the Wikipedia.

Instead of doing this, we should implement the category scheme I have
suggested on wikitech-l. Then we could put

[[Category:Fair use photo]]

on image pages that contain fair use photos, and any user whose use would
go beyond the limits as defined by the US Copyright Code could opt to
exclude such photos from his edition of Wikipedia relatively easily (by
replacing all links to such photos with external links, for example).

Of course, fair use should not be used as a blanket excuse to import
photos into Wikipedia. The pictures imported should have clear and obvious
educational value. Is that true for every album cover? Certainly not. Is
it true for photos of war crimes? Almost certainly.

The fair use issue is a thorny one, but we need to find a middle ground
that does not impose a too strict regime of self-censorship, but which
also does not get us into legal trouble.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Internet archive at the new library of alexandria

body:
Andre Engels <engels at uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> Another web site that gives access to the same archive is
> http://www.archive.org/

I already started wondering where they did get the past pages from ;)

http://www.archive.org/ does not seem to crawl that eagerly throught
the net as it used to do the last years.  In other words: it takes time
until new pages will find their way into the archive...

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


body:
On Wed, 2003-03-05 at 18:14, rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
>
> Okay. People are actively editing [[List of songs whose title does not appear
> in their lyrics]]. Four or five people have assured me I am a rotten git for
> daring to question the necessity of this article, but I can't help it. I think
> the fact that people created, discussed, and edited this article is just wrong.
> Even worse, people I respect (e.g. Tannin and Tarquin) are working on this
> article. I'm willing to tolerate most lists, even [[Lists of Americans]], or
> whatever it's called now. But this just caps it for me.
>
It's a much, much healthier approach to Wikipedia if you remember that
it's a collaborative experiment than a jewel to be polished.

Let's put it this way: if you're getting upset about the creation of
interesting list entries, you should probably put some work into
creating some more advanced search/sort tools to allow the automated
retrieval of such information as the list of left-handed presidents or
of banana drinks.

Without those tools, people are going to hand-create the lists.

Remember, Wikipedia has plenty of mechanisms for self-selection over the
long run. Uninteresting or useless entries will have few links, few
edits, few views. They wither on the vine.

It's much better for your blood pressure if you avoid getting upset by
others doing what they evidently enjoy, especially in a case like this,
which clearly doesn't impinge on your ability to contribute to
Wikipedia.

tc


from_name: Chuck Smith

subject: [Wikipedia-l] selling Wikipedia and licensing

body:
> We can
> probably get away with it, since we have an
> educational goal, no
> commercial interests, and are not an attractive
> target for lawsuits,
> but selling (extracts from) Wikipedia in any form is
> made almost
> impossible by these fair use landmines.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Viewing non-Roman characters

body:
I can't see any of the characters in Japanese and Chinese articles.  Is there a site I can go to download the fonts so that I can see the characters?

Zoe

---------------------------------
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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viewing non-Roman characters

body:
On Wed, 2003-03-05 at 20:40, Zoe wrote:
> I can't see any of the characters in Japanese and Chinese articles.
> Is there a site I can go to download the fonts so that I can see the
> characters?

I have the impression you are running Windows; if this is the case,
visit http://www.windowsupdate.com/

Select updates, wait while Microsoft downloads all personal information
on your computer ;) and scroll to the bottom of the list of things you
can install; there should be options for fonts supporting various
languages.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Pedro M.V.

body:
---- Original Message -----
From: "Vicki Rosenzweig" <vr at redbird.org>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] article length and fragment identifiers/pointers (Re: HTML tag)

> At 07:03 AM 3/5/03 +0100, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> >Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:
> >
> > > As I recall, the primary argument against anchors is that they support
> > > and encourage long pages.
> >
> >Very long pages are bad, but pages up to 20 or 30 KB are perfectly okay
> >and there fragment links (#fragment) are very useful.  Short articles
> >suffering from the fact that they are often nothing more than a list of
> >pointers to other articles (internal and external) ;)
> >
The point is fragment links drive the user to the desired part of the article. You only perhaps need read a little bit of the little article ( 2 or 3 lines ) to obtain a system idea of something that is in various articles. The reusability argument is important.

Regards.


body:
My point is not that I don't like them personally; my point is that I don't
think they belong on Wikipedia. Now, if you take the point of view that I
should "just ignore" things that I don't like, then you don't think there is
such a beast, and anything goes on Wikipedia. Then we get more and more
articles about random nonsense, and soon we are everything3. I'd rather have
some semblance of standards - and reasonably high standards, at that - about
what makes an appropriate article. These lists offend me not because they're
not something I'm particularly interested in - there's plenty of that in the
Wikipedia, and that's fine by me. These lists offend me because I think they
lower the quality of Wikipedia, they lower the bar for what is a good article,
and they lower our expectations for other editors.

Saurabh

------
"It doesn't matter what government the country has.  The power is held by those
 who own and control medias." -- Ahmed Rami

In message <20030306015316.52459.qmail at web40910.mail.yahoo.com>, Zoe said:
>--0-1038858368-1046915596=:51715
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>Is there something FORCING you to read these lists you dislike so much?  Don't you have the option of ignoring them?
>Zoe
> rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
>Okay. People are actively editing [[List of songs whose title does not appear
>in their lyrics]]. Four or five people have assured me I am a rotten git for
>daring to question the necessity of this article, but I can't help it. I think
>the fact that people created, discussed, and edited this article is just wrong.
>Even worse, people I respect (e.g. Tannin and Tarquin) are working on this
>article. I'm willing to tolerate most lists, even [[Lists of Americans]], or
>whatever it's called now. But this just caps it for me.
>
>I'd like to point out "What Wikipedia is not" #11:
>
># List repository of loosely associated topics such as; quotations, aphorisms
># or persons (But of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their
># entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly
># contributed to the list topic).
>
>This may not be definitive, but it at least suggests that we have some
>guidelines for what sort of lists should be considered appropriate, and what
>are total trash. I feel this particular list tips over into total trash. I have
>been assured that this list is valuable as an article, because people might be
>interested in it for its own sake (i.e. someone might want to know what songs
>have titles that don't appear in their lyrics), but I have a hard time taking
>this seriously. Are we going to insert every absurd contortion that the human
>mind can come up with into Wikipedia in the form of a list? E.g. [[List of
>left-handed Presidents]], [[List of towns with forty-story buildings]], [[List
>of drinks that contain banana]], etc., etc., etc.
>
>At some point this has got to stop. Can we draw a line in the sand, here? The
>trash lists have got to go. If there's not a clear organizing reason for it,
>then it shouldn't exist.
>
>Saurabh
>
>------
>"Slugs! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't speak, they can't operate
>machinery... I mean, are we not in the hands of a lunatic?"
>-- The Evil One describes the Supreme Being, "Time Bandits"
>
>In message <200302281914.OAA22276 at TheWorld.com>, Tom Parmenter said:
>>Lists serve as an organizing tool. They show what we have and don't
>>have. [[List of people from the United States]] is too broad to be of
>>much use, but [[List of boogie woogie musicians]] is invaluable, both
>>as an aid to those of us working on the topic, but also the reader.
>>There may never be a full article on Drive'em Down, the legendary New
>>Orleans piano player, but he's in the Wikipedia, and in a place where
>>his contributions can be best understood.
>>
>>In addition to their use as indexes, the "Related changes" and "What
>>links here" are helpful to writers working in a particular area and
>>the talk pages serve as a meeting place.
>>
>>There are all kinds of lists.
>>
>>
>>The best lists are:
>>
>>- confined to a single graspable topic. If the topic is vast, the
>>better lists will have been largely assembled by some outside
>>authority, Hall of Fame or the like.
>>
>>- annotated, why is the person place or thing on the list?
>>
>>- organized in a useful fashion. They can be grouped by topic, in
>>alphabetical order, or chronological, whatever helps make the list
>>more useful.
>>
>>Further observations:
>>
>>- [[List of novelists]] is barely tolerable. It is huge, but at least
>>it is grouped by an amalgam of language/country identifiers that is
>>not intellectually rigorous. but works for the reader.
>>
>>- [[List of gay movies]] is in alphabetical order and unannotated. I
>>have been arguing on thetalk page that if it were annotated (why is
>>''Rebel Without a Cause'' a gay movie) and in chronological order
>>(showing changing attitudes) it would be more useful (and interesting,
>>always a big number with me).
>>
>>- [[List of musical topics]] is vast, alphabetical, and unannotated, but
>>it shows the scope of Wikipedia and give music-minded writers
>>something to chew on.
>>
>>- The alphabetical biography lists are much more useful if they are
>>annotated, which has been a side project of mine.
>>
>>- [[One hit wonders]] went immediately off the tracks. It started as
>>a list ofthose odd but classic numbers but was quickly mired down by
>>objections that so-and-so had had two hits (one of which was never
>>heard of and did not matter) and also by diligent folks with reference
>>books listing every song that had ever been on any hit parade for at
>>least a week.
>>
>>I'm very pro-list, and willing to take the good with the bad.
>>
>>If [[List of Mexican restaurants in Los Angeles]] shows up, so be it.
>>[[List of glass harmonicists]] will soon be along to make up for it.
>>
>>Tom Parmenter
>>Ortolan88
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
>--0-1038858368-1046915596=:51715
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>
>
Is there something FORCING you to read these lists you dislike so much?  Don't you have the option of ignoring
>them?
>
Zoe
>
 rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
>

Okay. People are actively e
>diting [[List of songs whose title does not appear
in their lyrics]]. Four or five people have assured me I am a rot
>ten git for
daring to question the necessity of this article, but I can't help it. I think
the fact that people c
>reated, discussed, and edited this article is just wrong.
Even worse, people I respect (e.g. Tannin and Tarquin) are
> working on this
article. I'm willing to tolerate most lists, even [[Lists of Americans]], or
whatever it's calle
>d now. But this just caps it for me.

I'd like to point out "What Wikipedia is not" #11:

# List repository
> of loosely associated topics such as; quotations, aphorisms
# or persons (But of course, there is nothing wrong wit
>h having lists if their
# entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly
# contributed to t
>he list topic).

This may not b!
>e definitive, but it at least suggests that we have some
guidelines for what sort of lists should be considered appr
>opriate, and what
are total trash. I feel this particular list tips over into total trash. I have
been assured th
>at this list is valuable as an article, because people might be
interested in it for its own sake (i.e. someone migh
>t want to know what songs
have titles that don't appear in their lyrics), but I have a hard time taking
this seri
>ously. Are we going to insert every absurd contortion that the human
mind can come up with into Wikipedia in the for
>m of a list? E.g. [[List of
left-handed Presidents]], [[List of towns with forty-story buildings]], [[List
of dri
>nks that contain banana]], etc., etc., etc.

At some point this has got to stop. Can we draw a line in the sand,
> here? The
trash lists have got to go. If there's not a clear organizing reason for it,
then it shouldn't exist.<
>BR>
Saurabh

------
"Slug!
>s! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't speak, they can't operate
machinery... I mean, are we not in the ha
>nds of a lunatic?"
-- The Evil One describes the Supreme Being, "Time Bandits"

In message <200302281914.O
>AA22276 at TheWorld.com>, Tom Parmenter said:
>Lists serve as an organizing tool. They show what we have and don'
>t
>have. [[List of people from the United States]] is too broad to be of
>much use, but [[List of boogie wo
>ogie musicians]] is invaluable, both
>as an aid to those of us working on the topic, but also the reader.
>
>There may never be a full article on Drive'em Down, the legendary New
>Orleans piano player, but he's in the Wiki
>pedia, and in a place where
>his contributions can be best understood.
>
>In addition to their use as
> indexes, the "Related changes" and "What
>links here" are helpful to writers working in a particular area and
>>the talk pages serve as a meetin!
>g place.
>
>There are all kinds of lists.
>
>
>The best lists are:
>
>- con
>fined to a single graspable topic. If the topic is vast, the
>better lists will have been largely assembled by so
>me outside
>authority, Hall of Fame or the like.
>
>- annotated, why is the person place or thing on
> the list?
>
>- organized in a useful fashion. They can be grouped by topic, in
>alphabetical order,
>or chronological, whatever helps make the list
>more useful.
>
>Further observations:
>
&g
>t;- [[List of novelists]] is barely tolerable. It is huge, but at least
>it is grouped by an amalgam of language/
>country identifiers that is
>not intellectually rigorous. but works for the reader.
>
>- [[List of ga
>y movies]] is in alphabetical order and unannotated. I
>have been arguing on thetalk page that if it were annotat
>ed (why is
>''Rebel Without a C!
>ause'' a gay movie) and in chronological order
>(showing changing attitudes) it would be more useful (and interes
>ting,
>always a big number with me).
>
>- [[List of musical topics]] is vast, alphabetical, and unann
>otated, but
>it shows the scope of Wikipedia and give music-minded writers
>something to chew on.
><
>BR>>- The alphabetical biography lists are much more useful if they are
>annotated, which has been a side proj
>ect of mine.
>
>- [[One hit wonders]] went immediately off the tracks. It started as
>a list ofthose
> odd but classic numbers but was quickly mired down by
>objections that so-and-so had had two hits (one of which
>was never
>heard of and did not matter) and also by diligent folks with reference
>books listing every song
> that had ever been on any hit parade for at
>least a week.
>
>I'm very pro-list, and willing to tak
>e the good with the bad.
>
&!
>gt;If [[List of Mexican restaurants in Los Angeles]] shows up, so be it.
>[[List of glass harmonicists]] will soo
>n be along to make up for it.
>
>Tom Parmenter
>Ortolan88
>
>____________________________
>___________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/
>listinfo/wikien-l
>
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikip
>edia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Do you Yahoo!?

>Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators,
>tips, and more
>--0-1038858368-1046915596=:51715--
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] article length and fragment
  identifiers/pointers (Re: HTML tag)

body:
At 11:04 PM 3/5/03 +0100, Pedro M. V. wrote a message that had my
header, and none of my content:
>---- Original Message -----
>From: "Vicki Rosenzweig" <vr at redbird.org>
>To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] article length and fragment
>identifiers/pointers (Re: HTML tag)
>
>
> > At 07:03 AM 3/5/03 +0100, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> > >Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > As I recall, the primary argument against anchors is that they support
> > > > and encourage long pages.
> > >
> > >Very long pages are bad, but pages up to 20 or 30 KB are perfectly okay
> > >and there fragment links (#fragment) are very useful.  Short articles
> > >suffering from the fact that they are often nothing more than a list of
> > >pointers to other articles (internal and external) ;)
> > >
>The point is fragment links drive the user to the desired part of the
>article. You only perhaps need read a little bit of the little article ( 2
>or 3 lines ) to obtain a system idea of something that is in various
>articles. The reusability argument is important.
>
>Regards.
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


from_name: julien tayon

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] [robertocasiraghi@iol.it: Can Wikipedia articles
 be translated or "manipulated" to teach English?]

body:
Le Fri, 28 Feb 2003 04:41:42 +0100,
inspir?(e) Wouter Vanden Hove <wouter.vanden.hove at pandora.be> ?crivait
la plume alerte :
> >
> >
> >Not all of us, as fighting against intellectual property rights
> >using the tools of intellectual property strikes some as
> >hypocritical.
> >
>
> The most briljant move of the GPL is *using* the copyright framework
> in order to reverse it.
> It's not hypocritical, it's pure genius. It converts the public domain
>
Still the same debate : there are using authors right protection. To use
copyright protection they shoud have to  pay k$ to register the Free
Software (TM) and give licence of use to who they want.

Friendly,

--
Julien Tayon
http://www.tayon.net/			       http://libroscope.org/
Si la v?rit? est une femme, essayons de la s?duire avant de la saisir.


from_name: Jesse Alter

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #178 - 10 msgs

body:
The issue is not that he dislikes the lists. The issue is that he feels that the lists are going against the standards of Wikipedia. You have a right to ignore hate speech, unencyclopedic or blatantly wrong content. However, if it doesn't belong there, you remove it.

Now, whether it does belong there or not remains to be seen...I've seen good aguments on both sides. I do think that [[List of songs whose title does not appear in their lyrics]] is a bit ridiculous, but other than my knee-jerk reaction to it, I can't really think of a strong argument against it. (I've already considered the 'Encarta doesn't have that list' argument, and it's pretty weak.)

Original Message:

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:53:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Lists which are sheer nonsense
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org

--0-1038858368-1046915596=:51715
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Is there something FORCING you to read these lists you dislike so much?  Don't you have the option of ignoring them?
Zoe


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: nonsense

body:
Zoe wrote:

>You're just trying to throw semantics around to prove an untenable point.

The dictionary defines "semantics" as "the study or science of
meaning in language." I thought that's exactly what we were
discussing.

This is the last comment I'm going to make on the topic. I've said
what I have to say, and I think prolonging this discussion with Zoe
would merely waste my time and try the patience of others.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: Sysop rights

body:
>If it's not too soon, I'd like to ask for sysop rights.
>My user name is sannse, I've been around since December.
>
>Regards,
>
>sannse

Sannse is already a great contributor and would make an excellent Admin.

That is three Admin requests in the last day. Have the other two been promoted
yet?

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 4]]


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Pb with the server ?

body:
> Hi,
>
> What's happening with the server ?
> I can't access any page.
> Is it just over loaded or what ?
>
> Thanks,
> Yann

Dans ces cas la, Brion a une bonne formule :
Ouvre ta fenetre et regarde comme la nature est belle ;o)
Ca doit etre un bakcup ou qq chose dans le genre... un peu de patience.

Aoineko


from_name: Jimmy Wales

in_reply_to: <200303052314.h25NEP0G028164@genovevo.net>; from rednblack@alum.mit.edu on Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 06:14:25PM -0500

body:
rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
> At some point this has got to stop. Can we draw a line in the sand,
> here? The trash lists have got to go. If there's not a clear
> organizing reason for it, then it shouldn't exist.

Hmmm, I think this is not an easy question.  There are lists that we
should reject as being un-encyclopedic in one of the usual ways that
any article might be un-encyclopedic, for example "inherently POV" or
"too personal to be verifiable".

"List of Concerts Attended by Jimbo" --> too personal to be verifiable

"List of politicians who are bad people" --> inherently POV (and
probably of near-infinite length, ha ha)

But the list in question, well, what's the harm, exactly?  Too
trivial, maybe, but Wiki is not paper, there are no size-constraints.

When/if we get around to producing a "1.0" edited version for
distribution on paper/cd/etc., we'll need to be more selective about
what we're including.

--Jimbo


body:
Zoe wrote:
> Is there something FORCING you to read these lists you dislike so
>much?  Don't you have the option of ignoring them?

Although I've taken a different view on the value of the list in
question (I think it's harmless), I will stick up for Saurabh here and
say that I don't think Zoe's argument here is completely persuasive.

It could be used, after all, as an excuse to put all sorts of
non-encyclopedic things into wikipedia.  "If you don't like my article
entries consisting of haiku about my cat, just ignore them."
:-)

It's perfectly valid for people to question whether or not a
particular entry or type of entry is good for wikipedia.  Like I
say, I didn't agree with Saurabh in this instance, but I thought
the question was perfectly valid.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] sys admin?

in_reply_to: <F35VX6g6fprg0sYQmpI0000e4c1@hotmail.com>; from name12323@hotmail.com on Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 07:17:35PM -0500

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> how could I become a system administrator?

It's basically "shall issue" to anyone that we've known for any length
of time.  The only reason it's restricted at all is that there are
some irreversible and hard-to-reverse things that you could do, and so
it's dangerous to give those powers to random passerby.

Two things that we need to resist are (a) the idea that sysops have
more authority than anyone else in editing pages and (b) ALL use of
sysop powers "in a fight" about the content of a page.

I wish we had a lot more sysops, so that we could partly demystify the
position.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] limit of edits for anonymous users

body:
Chuck Smith wrote:
> Could we have a limit of 50 edits for anonymous users?
>  I just don't think anonymous users should be making
> this many edits in one day...  what do you think?
> ...and yes, this is happening in the Eo Wikipedia!

Can you list out the pro's and con's of this?  What's the harm?  What
would we lose by imposing this policy?

PRO's: it might stop some simplistic vandal-bots, if any ever show up
to harass us

CON's: it might annoy legitimate contributors who choose not to sign
in for whatever reason

It seems to me that many non-logged-in users are concerned about
privacy and anonymity, but they've really not grasped the true
situation in the software.  You're *more anonymous* when you log in.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info

in_reply_to: <20030306140544.GC93948@mrtall.compsoc.man.ac.uk>; from jason@jasonandali.org.uk on Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 02:05:46PM +0000

body:
Jason Williams wrote:
> Incidentally, is registering wikipedia as a trademark being
> considered?

Yes.  Even if not registered, it's still a trademark.  But
registration in the name of the nonprofit is in the works.

--Jimbo


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info

body:
I have installed the wikipedia3 software at:

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml

It is not quite ready for public access, but you can view progress there and
work on it should you so desire. The wikidata base dump was not installed.
Certain policies have been changed from wikipedia and there are some bugs.
Please report bugs on my talk page or by email to me at fredbaud at ctelco.net.
Policy changes include: internet-encyclopedia is written in American
English; on controversial issues do not try for a neutral point of view, but
rather write separate articles sympathetic to each point of view (don't try
to write on a viewpoint you are not sympathetic to). Another feature will be
signed articles. More will be explained in the internet-enclyclopedia FAQ as
it develops.

Fred


subject: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info

body:
Just changing the references to Wikipedia on the main page is a few hours
work. But working on it. Remember unless you know the URL you would not
conntect to the wikipedia clone but to:

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info

That url will not connect to the wiki clone til the site is more or less
ready (with references to internet-encyclopedia in place)

Fred

> From: Jason Williams <jason at jasonandali.org.uk>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 14:05:46 +0000
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info
>
> On Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 06:56:48AM -0700, Fred Bauder wrote:
>> I have installed the wikipedia3 software at:
>>
>> http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml
>
> Erm! I presume you've just not yet got around to changing the
> references to the "wikipedia" name.
>
> Incidentally, is registering wikipedia as a trademark being
> considered?
>
> --
>
> jason at jasonandali.org.uk    http://www.jasonandali.org.uk/jason/
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop rights

body:
If it's not too soon, I'd like to ask for sysop rights.

My user name is sannse, I've been around since December.

Regards,

sannse


subject: [WikiEN-l] New sysops

body:
Fred Bauder and Saurabh now have sysop rights.

Please tell me what to do about Daniel Ehrenberg, a user I'm not familiar with.

Ed Poor
Wikipedia Developer


subject: [WikiEN-l] FW: New sysops

body:
Oops! I meant "Sannse" is now a sysop -- not "Saurabh". That's what comes of hurrying.

Ed


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: sys admin?

body:
Jimbo wrote:

>I wish we had a lot more sysops, so that we could partly demystify the
>position.

How about making me one, for starters?
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Jan Hidders

body:
On Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 06:14:25PM -0500, rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
>
> Okay. People are actively editing [[List of songs whose title does not appear
> in their lyrics]]. Four or five people have assured me I am a rotten git for
> daring to question the necessity of this article, but I can't help it. I think
> the fact that people created, discussed, and edited this article is just wrong.

Your arguments are IMO correct: such lists are useless, don't belong in an
encyclopedia, lead to endless pointless discussions about what belongs on
the list and how it should be structured, set a bad example and lower the
standards. However, they are also easy to make, fun to do, tempt newbies
into participating with a small easy addition, and every now an then
introduce stubs that lead to full-blown articles. I would say that the
latter arguments outweigh the first arguments because the main reason that
Wikipedia works is its community. Let's not forget that it is the spare time
of countless volunteers that makes Wikipedia tick. If such lists help to
maintain and expand that community (with the right people), and I think they
do, then we should cherish them.

-- Jan Hidders

 .---------------------------------------------------------------------.
 | Post-doctoral researcher               e-mail: jan.hidders at ua.ac.be |
 | Dept. Math. & Computer Science         tel: (+32) 3 218 0873        |
 | University of Antwerp                  fax: (+32) 3 218 0204        |
 | Middelheimlaan 1, B-2020 Antwerpen, BELGIUM     room: G 3.21        |
 `---------------------------------------------------------------------'


subject: [Wikipedia-l] California court ruling  on responsibility for content

in_reply_to: <006401c2e418$99c88ac0$40befdd0@impressario>; from jjbowks@adam.cheshire.net on Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 02:42:50PM -0500

body:
Sounds icky, but I have every confidence that the 9th Circus will do
the right thing here.

If it did stand, all the way to the Supreme Court, it could very
negatively affect everything that we're doing.  It would make the
Wikipedia non-profit vulnerable to a lawsuit based on the actions of a
user, which would mean -- in practice -- that we'd have to police
things a lot more centrally, etc.  It'd be crushing to our whole
development model.

But, I'm not too worried.  This sounds like it'll be a slam-dunk
on appeal.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] No Challenge to Sheldon as sysop, right?

body:
Why not? He's a better writer than I am, and even *less* inclined to inject his own POV bias into articles than I am. *blush* I'm always having to take stuff back after wording it too strongly....

Uncle Ed, aka Ed Poor

-----Original Message-----
From: Sheldon Rampton [mailto:sheldon.rampton at verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:03 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: sys admin?

Jimbo wrote:

>I wish we had a lot more sysops, so that we could partly demystify the
>position.

How about making me one, for starters?


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Interlanguage links at test site

body:
I have reinstalled my interlanguage management at test.wikipedia.org.
For those interested, I have also committed the code to the CVS. It is
turned off by default; to turn it on, set
    $wgUseNewInterlanguage = true ;
in your LocalSettings.php

For your local installation, you'll need to create a "wiki-intl"
database, with tables "ilinks" and "recentchanges":

CREATE TABLE ilinks (
  lang_from varchar(5) default NULL,
  lang_to varchar(5) default NULL,
  title_from tinyblob,
  title_to tinyblob,
  target_exists tinyint(1) default NULL
) TYPE=MyISAM;

CREATE TABLE recentchanges (
  user_name tinyblob,
  user_lang varchar(5) default NULL,
  date timestamp(14) NOT NULL,
  message tinyblob
) TYPE=MyISAM;

Happy hacking!

Magnus


from_name: Gareth Owen

body:
Chuck Smith <msochuck at yahoo.com> writes:

> Could we have a limit of 50 edits for anonymous users?  I just don't think
> anonymous users should be making this many edits in one day...

Why the hell not?
If they're good edits, I don't care if they're making 5000 edits in a day.
If they're bad edits, it matters not one jot, if they're anonymous, and there
are mechanisms in place for dealing with vandals...
--
Gareth Owen
"And Cunct, please stop being such a prick."
                        -- wikipedia-l gains a new mantra (Wed Nov  6 2002)


body:
Could we have a limit of 50 edits for anonymous users?
 I just don't think anonymous users should be making
this many edits in one day...  what do you think?
...and yes, this is happening in the Eo Wikipedia!

Chuck

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! M?viles
Personaliza tu m?vil con tu logo y melod?a favorito
en http://moviles.yahoo.es


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>> First we need to know what your user name is. Next we need somebody
>> to quickly
>> verify that you pretty much know how the place works and most
>> importantly are
>> not the type of person that would abuse admin powers (that is, you
>> are not a
>> vandal or troll). This describes nearly all old timers and most users
>> that
>> have been editing more or less daily for a month or so. I would bet
>> it also
>> describes you but we do need to know what username you edit under.
>
>
> My username is anonymous56789.  Even though I've only used this
> account for a few weeks, I've been using wikipedia for months.  I
> definitely wouldn't abuse admil powers. I edit wikipedia every day and
> make a new entry on average about 2 a day. I always check my sources.
> Before letting me be an admin, I think you should know that I am 13
> years old, and if you think my information would be inaccurate, then
> don't make me an admin.

This is great.  I'd like to be able to convince my 13 year old son to
participate, but any such suggestion only gets strange looks from him. :-)

Eclecticology


from_name: Jason Williams

subject: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info

body:
On Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 06:56:48AM -0700, Fred Bauder wrote:
> I have installed the wikipedia3 software at:
>
> http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml

Erm! I presume you've just not yet got around to changing the
references to the "wikipedia" name.

Incidentally, is registering wikipedia as a trademark being
considered?

--

jason at jasonandali.org.uk    http://www.jasonandali.org.uk/jason/


subject: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info

body:
Done,

You must remember that using the Wikipedia3 software carries the wikipedia
name as an part of itself. No doubt a few references to wikipedia still
exist on one page or another, but I did edit language.pnp and have probably
replaced most of them.

Fred

> From: Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:05:17 -0500
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info
>
> At 06:56 AM 3/6/03 -0700, Fred Bauder wrote:
>> I have installed the wikipedia3 software at:
>>
>> http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml
>>
>> It is not quite ready for public access, but you can view progress there and
>> work on it should you so desire. The wikidata base dump was not installed.
>
> Please take the Wikipedia name off the front page.
> --
> Vicki Rosenzweig
> vr at redbird.org
> http://www.redbird.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Jay Bowks

body:
From: "Chuck Smith" <msochuck at yahoo.com>
> Could we have a limit of 50 edits for anonymous users?
>  I just don't think anonymous users should be making
> this many edits in one day...  what do you think?
> ...and yes, this is happening in the Eo Wikipedia!

Or perhaps ask that at a specified
number they must log in??? I know
that I sometimes don't bother logging
in and once you get carried away
adding articles and making edits,
you just forget about not being
logged in. So a reminder would
be helpful if it could be implemented
without much fuss or trouble. Other
wise if there is no harm done then
is the reason for the limit a feeling
that some bot may mess things up?
That could be a problem... What
else could be done?

With regards,
Jay B.
[[User:ILVI]]


body:
Oh, dash it all! I was just about to contribute a jolly good deal of work to your project. I shall have to reconsider the matter in light of this bit of bother.

Sir Edmund, aka Ed Poor

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Grevers [mailto:dramatic at xtra.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 1:54 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: internet-encyclopedia.info

On Thu, 06 Mar 2003 06:56:48 -0700, Fred Bauder
<fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> I have installed the wikipedia3 software at:
>
> http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml
>
> It is not quite ready for public access, but you can view progress there
> and
> work on it should you so desire. The wikidata base dump was not
> installed.
> Certain policies have been changed from wikipedia and there are some
> bugs.
> Please report bugs on my talk page or by email to me at
> fredbaud at ctelco.net.
> Policy changes include: internet-encyclopedia is written in American
> English;
ok, I'll steer clear ;-)

--
Richard Grevers

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Problems with Susan Mason

body:
I am having some severe problems with User:Susan_Mason.  I
am not writing to you merely about the problems with
hercontent: She has the disturbing tendency to make stuff
up off the top of her head and claim it to be fact, and
then insult Wikipedia contributors such as SLR who present
scholarship that rebut her.  I am not merely talking about
her refusal to support her claims, and her personal attacks
on people who do support their claims with references.

I am forced to write here because she has a disturbing
tendency to make stuff up about people; she invents
positions that they do not have, and then attacks people
for these things which were never even said in the first
place.

She has done this quite a bit, but her most recent attack
on me crosses the line. She now slanders me as a racist.
For some time now I have been telling Stevertigo that on
the English Wikipedia, we should write our content and sign
our names in English langauge and in English letters.  Yet
he still refuses to do so, and is still signing letters in
non-English characters that cannot be displayed on many
computer terminals. (Mine, for instance, and also on the
computers I use at work.)

Out of nowhere, Susan Mason effectively called me a racist
by writing "What? Chinese people aren't allowed to
contribute to the english wiki?"

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Idolatry

This is a bald-faced lie, a libelous smear against me. She
is implying that I am bigoted against Chinese people, when
all I am asking is that we use English letters on the
English Wikipedia.

This is just the latest in a long line of incidents where
she has attacked other Wikipedia community members for
things that they just never said, and it is really out of
hand.

Sincerely,

RK

=====
"I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous".
The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


body:
This is kinda scary... How would this
new ruling affect Wikipedia projects?

w/ regards,
Jay B.

"A California court ruling could reverse
long-standing legal protections
that have cleared Web sites of
responsibility for content published by
online users. The ruling, which concerns
a false personals ad posted on
Matchmaker.com that included the
real name and address of a "Star Trek"
actress, could force Web sites to
choose between actively policing public
forum content or risking litigation
over inaccurate information."
http://cl.com.com/Click?q=01-9o0DI2jfOIW3jeU2Hl6nGrgZY97C


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
>First we need to know what your user name is. Next we need somebody to
>quickly
>verify that you pretty much know how the place works and most importantly
>are
>not the type of person that would abuse admin powers (that is, you are not
>a
>vandal or troll). This describes nearly all old timers and most users that
>have been editing more or less daily for a month or so. I would bet it also
>describes you but we do need to know what username you edit under.

My username is anonymous56789.  Even though I've only used this account for
a few weeks, I've been using wikipedia for months.  I definitely wouldn't
abuse admil powers. I edit wikipedia every day and make a new entry on
average about 2 a day. I always check my sources. Before letting me be an
admin, I think you should know that I am 13 years old, and if you think my
information would be inaccurate, then don't make me an admin.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


from_name: Christopher Mahan

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:

> ...I'd like to hear a convincing argument who might want to
> look it
> up and why. If the answer is just the entertainment value, then I
> am
> inclined to be skeptical about the need for the list's existence.

How about getting us traffic from search engines?

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
My opinion may not carry much weight, but I would suggest a more "confidence-inspiring" username. I fear only that some users might be put off by a sysop called "anonymous" anything. Having people be confident about you is an important part of being a sysop, I think.

But maybe I'm making too big a deal about this. What do the others think?

Uncle Ed, aka Ed Poor

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Ehrenberg [mailto:name12323 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 2:54 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

>First we need to know what your user name is. Next we need somebody to
>quickly
>verify that you pretty much know how the place works and most importantly
>are
>not the type of person that would abuse admin powers (that is, you are not
>a
>vandal or troll). This describes nearly all old timers and most users that
>have been editing more or less daily for a month or so. I would bet it also
>describes you but we do need to know what username you edit under.

My username is anonymous56789.  Even though I've only used this account for
a few weeks, I've been using wikipedia for months.  I definitely wouldn't
abuse admil powers. I edit wikipedia every day and make a new entry on
average about 2 a day. I always check my sources. Before letting me be an
admin, I think you should know that I am 13 years old, and if you think my
information would be inaccurate, then don't make me an admin.


body:
--- rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
>
> Although if it's ever completed, this list will probably take up a
> few million
> lines, wouldn't it be more effective to simply have [[Lists of
> songs]] if we
> want to generate traffic? Or, better yet [[List of top google
> keywords repeated
> a million times]].

I guess being facetious is hard to recognize.

When I say something is good enough for getting results from search
engines, I am not speaking to highly of the content.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
At 02:54 PM 3/6/03 -0500, Daniel wrote:
>>First we need to know what your user name is. Next we need somebody to
>>quickly
>>verify that you pretty much know how the place works and most importantly are
>>not the type of person that would abuse admin powers (that is, you are not a
>>vandal or troll). This describes nearly all old timers and most users that
>>have been editing more or less daily for a month or so. I would bet it also
>>describes you but we do need to know what username you edit under.
>
>My username is anonymous56789.  Even though I've only used this account
>for a few weeks, I've been using wikipedia for months.  I definitely
>wouldn't abuse admil powers. I edit wikipedia every day and make a new
>entry on average about 2 a day. I always check my sources. Before letting
>me be an admin, I think you should know that I am 13 years old, and if you
>think my information would be inaccurate, then don't make me an admin.

Sounds good to me--as anonymous56789 he's been a good, steady
contributor, and I don't think age is relevant: the project and the work we
do on it are what matter.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info

body:
At 06:56 AM 3/6/03 -0700, Fred Bauder wrote:
>I have installed the wikipedia3 software at:
>
>http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml
>
>It is not quite ready for public access, but you can view progress there and
>work on it should you so desire. The wikidata base dump was not installed.

Please take the Wikipedia name off the front page.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:

> * we should check the "Remember me" box by default.

Please no. I want to type in my username/password. It keeps me from
forgetting it. And I often log in from public computers.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Problems with Susan Mason

body:
Lir is always going to be Lir, no matter what name he uses.
Zoe
 Robert <rkscience100 at yahoo.com> wrote:I am having some severe problems with User:Susan_Mason. I
am not writing to you merely about the problems with
hercontent: She has the disturbing tendency to make stuff
up off the top of her head and claim it to be fact, and
then insult Wikipedia contributors such as SLR who present
scholarship that rebut her. I am not merely talking about
her refusal to support her claims, and her personal attacks
on people who do support their claims with references.

I am forced to write here because she has a disturbing
tendency to make stuff up about people; she invents
positions that they do not have, and then attacks people
for these things which were never even said in the first
place.

She has done this quite a bit, but her most recent attack
on me crosses the line. She now slanders me as a racist.
For some time now I have been telling Stevertigo that on
the English Wikipedia, we should write our content and sign
our names in English langauge and in English letters. Yet
he still refuses to do so, and is still signing letters in
non-English characters that cannot be displayed on many
computer terminals. (Mine, for instance, and also on the
computers I use at work.)

Out of nowhere, Susan Mason effectively called me a racist
by writing "What? Chinese people aren't allowed to
contribute to the english wiki?"

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Idolatry

This is a bald-faced lie, a libelous smear against me. She
is implying that I am bigoted against Chinese people, when
all I am asking is that we use English letters on the
English Wikipedia.

This is just the latest in a long line of incidents where
she has attacked other Wikipedia community members for
things that they just never said, and it is really out of
hand.

Sincerely,

RK

=====
"I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous".
The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Please sign this anti-war petition

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>> Dear MoveOn member,
>>
>> The response to our emergency petition to the U.N. Security
>> Council has been nothing short of extraordinary.  Less than
>> two days after the petition was launched, over 550,000 people
>> have signed, from over 200 countries.  It's a strong message
>> from the peoples of the world that the Security Council
>> should support tough inspections in Iraq, not war.  It's also
>> the fastest-growing online petition we've ever seen -- and
>> already one of the largest in history
>
>> etc. etc...
>
A word of caution here.  Amazingly, this kind of thing is controversial
here, and some people may consider it as spam.  Not everybody here
supports the war crimes against Iraq that have been proposed by Bush's
Axis with Benito Blair.  Some even think that it is a healthy democratic
proposal.  At the same time we find that there are other areas where we
can work together constructively with ease.  An atmosphere where people
are continually promoting or defending their views about the Iraq crisis
could make life in the Wikipedia community intolerable, and we would
accomplish very little. Engaging in this kind of debate can sometimes
jeopardize one's credibility.

Better that this note of caution come from an avowed leftist that mostly
supports your position than from an incensed opponent.  I'm confident
that you can proceed on this issue with a maturity and wisdom that is
sometimes lacking on the perches of power.

Eclecticology


from_name: fdafd

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Edit page Size warning

body:
Stevertigo wrote: - ---
Propose change:

:"WARNING: This page is X kilobytes long; Ideal length for articles is
between 30-50K. Should this page grow longer, please consider breaking the
page into smaller
ctions"   -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#35918&#30505</Strong>]] p.s. will
post to mailist..

MAV::"Ideal length" would ''not'' be in the 30 - 50 KB range. Anything above
20KB of readable text tries the patience of readers and anything above 28KB
has technical limitations for users on slow computers and/or use certain
browsers. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 00:32 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC)

SUSAN:The policy of putting new text at the bottom tries the patience of
anyone with a slow computer. [[User:Susan Mason|Susan Mason]]

STEVERTIGO::Brion? on the Wikipedia-l said that 30-50 was the range... I
thought it suspect at first, but Im not sure where the range really is...
this was an issue on 911.wik where Martin and Elo? fought over how whether
the 911 list should be broken up - I suggested why not both? If you cant
deal with... you have options still, and that list can be broken up by
category... this begs the question of course... lists are better dealt with
by software...  Either way, it seems like the warning needs some clarifying
and consensus... i just signed to wiki-en - ill repost this
there... -Stevertigo


subject: [WikiEN-l] sys admin?

body:
Oliver Pereira wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>>I wish we had a lot more sysops, so that we could partly demystify the
>>position.
>>
>
>Oh, well, in that case... I hereby request sysop status. :)
>
>Camembert suggested on the first of March that I should become a sysop,
>although I have no idea how closely he had been monitoring my behaviour in
>order to judge the wisdom of such a suggestion...
>
Maybe he was just anticipating the ides at the end of next week. :-)

Ec.


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Problems with Susan Mason

body:
Im familiar enough with Susan, and some of her bad habits... I will say hers
are not  as bad as Formeruser:Clutch's bad habits, with whom I've agreed
with on severa core  issues, and have corresponded privately. Nevertheless,
he had (has)  a tendency to run off at the mouth...  Had he moderated his
conduct - which is what I suggest for Susan... He'd not have been banned. No
doubt if he apologizes sincerely, he should be allowed to return.  That
Susan is Lir is irrelevant to me... (was there some theory about her working
for some competitor?) Reincarnation is a fact of life, and quoting the
Riddler "If you kill em, they wont learn nothin." I do understand Zoe's keen
distaste for her, and share some of it. although the chauvinist in me does
brush some of this off  as 'typical female jealousy' - for lack of a better
expression. In my view Susan has not presented as much a problem as Clutch.
RK, however,  in my view, is in many ways similar to Clutch and perhaps,
like Johnathan, should have some moderation imposed upon him when the time
is ripe. I only state this in opposition to his expressed drastic views of
Susan.   -Wikilove is Glory - -<B>&#35918&#30505</B>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Problems with Susan Mason

body:
I think RK is right, and I'd like to hear Susan Mason's side of the story. Or actually I would support an immediate ban because I think S.M. is an unrepentant Lir, but perhaps kinder and wiser folk like Stephen Gilbert would say I'm too quick to judge.

Uncle Ed, aka Ed Poor


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Javascript RC and Konqueror

body:
It doesn't work with Konqueror well.
It opens list a few lines above the link,
instead of exactly below it.


from_name: rednblack at alum.mit.edu

subject: [WikiEN-l] Problems with Susan Mason

in_reply_to:
Your message of "Thu, 06 Mar 2003 17:52:13 EST."
             <E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280CF5B1@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>

body:
Personally I think Susan Mason/Lir/Vera Cruz is one of the most brilliant
trolls to ever grace this site. I'm starting to think that there may be
enough merits in this to keep her around, if only people would appreciate her
for what she is.

Saurabh

------
"We cannot buy the Sharon argument that his attacks are a reaction to the
Palestinian violence. And I don't blame the Israelis if they also don't accept
our arguments, that our violence is a reaction to the Israeli violence."
--Ghassan Khatib, PA minister of labor

In message <E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280CF5B1 at sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disne
y.com>, "Poor, Edmund W" said:
>I think RK is right, and I'd like to hear Susan Mason's side of the story. Or
>actually I would support an immediate ban because I think S.M. is an unrepenta
>nt Lir, but perhaps kinder and wiser folk like Stephen Gilbert would say I'm t
>oo quick to judge.
>
>Uncle Ed, aka Ed Poor
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Although if it's ever completed, this list will probably take up a few million
lines, wouldn't it be more effective to simply have [[Lists of songs]] if we
want to generate traffic? Or, better yet [[List of top google keywords repeated
a million times]].

Saurabh

------
"Be strong, and remember: be yourself, because you have to be someone,
and everyone else is already taken." -- http://lzip.sourceforge.net/

In message <20030306232917.49334.qmail at web14007.mail.yahoo.com>, Christopher Ma
han said:
>
>--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> ...I'd like to hear a convincing argument who might want to
>> look it
>> up and why. If the answer is just the entertainment value, then I
>> am
>> inclined to be skeptical about the need for the list's existence.
>
>
>How about getting us traffic from search engines?
>
>
>
>
>=====
>Christopher Mahan
>chris_mahan at yahoo.com
>818.943.1850 cell
>http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Axel Boldt

body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:

[about http://news.com.com/2009-1023-991264.html]

> If it did stand, all the way to the Supreme Court, it could very
> negatively affect everything that we're doing.  It would make the
> Wikipedia non-profit vulnerable to a lawsuit based on the actions of
> a user, which would mean -- in practice -- that we'd have to police
> things a lot more centrally, etc.  It'd be crushing to our whole
> development model.

I don't think it affects us: the reasoning of the court was that
Matchmaker.com is partly responsible for the content because they
partly created it, by providing the user with a long series of yes/no
questions and targeted essay questions to produce the ad. But the
Wikipedia non-profit doesn't do anything like that. Any harmful content
posted on Wikipedia was created completely independently by the
(ab)user. All the prodding they got from us was a textbox and a
blinking cursor.

Axel

__________________________________________________
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body:
>From: "Eli Pariser, MoveOn.org" <moveon-help at list.moveon.org>
>To: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <name12323 at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Amazing. Help us reach 750,000 by Friday.
>Date: 6 Mar 2003 20:41:55 -0000
>
>Dear MoveOn member,
>
>The response to our emergency petition to the U.N. Security
>Council has been nothing short of extraordinary.  Less than
>two days after the petition was launched, over 550,000 people
>have signed, from over 200 countries.  It's a strong message
>from the peoples of the world that the Security Council
>should support tough inspections in Iraq, not war.  It's also
>the fastest-growing online petition we've ever seen -- and
>already one of the largest in history.
>
>Thanks for being a part of this enormous success.  With your
>help, we can make it even bigger.  Please let your friends and
>colleagues know about the petition by sending them a short
>note and this email.  They can sign up at:
>
>    http://www.moveon.org/emergency/
>
>We've pushed back our delivery date to Monday -- our sources
>at the U.N. tell us that's when it'll make the most waves. We
>need to send the petition to press on Friday night, but we'd
>like to have as many signers as possible by that time.  If
>each person who signed the petition gets a few friends to
>sign, we'll easily reach our 750,000 goal -- but it has to
>happen today.
>
>Please take a moment to let your friends know about this
>important initiative.  With your help, we can make an even
>bigger impact on the U.N. Security Council.
>
>Sincerely,
>--Carrie, Eli, Joan, Peter, Wes, and Zack
>   The MoveOn Team
>   March 6th, 2003
>
>P.S. Our petition was launched in cooperation with the American
>Friends Service Committee, who have a terrific website that
>provides resources and information on the crisis in Iraq.  Check
>it out at:
>
>    http://www.afsc.org/iraq/
>
>P.P.S. Yesterday, our local ad went up in over 111 local
>newspapers across the nation, our billboards are now up in
>Detroit, San Francisco and L.A., and our "Inspections Work. War
>Won't." message is on a quarter of all the busses in Washington
>D.C.  The financial support of MoveOn members for these
>initiatives has been overwhelming -- you funded over 100 local
>ads in less than a day!
>
>One note of caution about giving to good causes: Never give your
>credit card number over the phone in response to any telephone
>solicitation.  And only give online or by mail to organizations
>you know and trust (like us).
>
>Thanks for making this work possible.
>
>Some links:
>
>Our "No link" ad that ran in 111 newspapers yesterday:
>http://www.moveon.org/localads/localad.pdf
>
>Our billboard and busses layout:
>http://www.moveon.org/billboards/
>
>How to donate to MoveOn.org:
>http://www.moveon.org/support.html
>
>________________
>
>This is a message from MoveOn.org. To remove yourself (Daniel Ehrenberg)
>from
>this list, please visit our subscription management page at:
>http://moveon.org/s?i=1137-2269063-Yqn.G87wvTdzz9AjLqJMew

_________________________________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
>This is great.  I'd like to be able to convince my 13 year old son to
>participate, but any such suggestion only gets strange looks from him. :-)
>
>Eclecticology

I'm trying to get my dad to participate, but the same thing seems to happen.

_________________________________________________________________
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
>My opinion may not carry much weight, but I would suggest a more
>"confidence-inspiring" username. I fear only that some users might be put
>off by a sysop called "anonymous" anything. Having people be confident
>about you is an important part of being a sysop, I think.
>
>But maybe I'm making too big a deal about this. What do the others think?
>
>Uncle Ed, aka Ed Poor

I don't know, should I delete this account and switch to a more "confident"
name? I never really cared about my username.

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


body:
Besides the fact that this is, indeed, spam, it's useless.  See "http://www.snopes.com/rumors/un.htm"
The UN's own websit says, "The UN is NOT involved in soliciting or collecting such petitions. We would suggest that since it is member governments of the UN who will decide on whatever action occurs in various situations, citizens should contact their own government.".
Zoe

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
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body:
Besides the sexist and irrelevant thought that I might dislike Lir because Lir is a woman, you really don't understand that Lir is a man, do you?  And I dislike you, and you're not a woman.  Or are you?
Zoe
 Stevertigo <stevertigo at attbi.com> wrote:Im familiar enough with Susan, and some of her bad habits... I will say hers
are not as bad as Formeruser:Clutch's bad habits, with whom I've agreed
with on severa core issues, and have corresponded privately. Nevertheless,
he had (has) a tendency to run off at the mouth... Had he moderated his
conduct - which is what I suggest for Susan... He'd not have been banned. No
doubt if he apologizes sincerely, he should be allowed to return. That
Susan is Lir is irrelevant to me... (was there some theory about her working
for some competitor?) Reincarnation is a fact of life, and quoting the
Riddler "If you kill em, they wont learn nothin." I do understand Zoe's keen
distaste for her, and share some of it. although the chauvinist in me does
brush some of this off as 'typical female jealousy' - for lack of a better
expression. In my view Susan has not presented as much a problem as Clutch.
RK, however, in my view, is in many ways similar to Clutch and perhaps,
like Johnathan, should have some moderation imposed upon him when the time
is ripe. I only state this in opposition to his expressed drastic views of
Susan. -Wikilove is Glory - -#35918;#30505;

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
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from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Viewing non-Roman characters

body:
On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:40:48 -0800 (PST), Zoe
<zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I can't see any of the characters in Japanese and Chinese articles.  Is
> there a site I can go to download the fonts so that I can see the
> characters?
>
What browser do you use, Zoe? If it's Mozilla(etc) or Opera, you need only
install the appropriate unicode fonts.
(the best resource is http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/unicode/fonts.html ).
Microsoft have withdrawn their download page for Arial Unicode MS (which
was "free" providing you owned an Office or Publisher license), but I
believe that sourceforge now has equivalents.
If, however, you use IE, you will need to install "language support packs"
(which are really bloody great patches to your operating system.) I hope
you have broadband if you want CJK!
--
Richard Grevers


body:
Zoe, I apologise for the quasi-sexism. Re:user:Susan/gender Im not privy to Sysop info. But I do see some sysops getting a little personal and at a loss for gentleness and my point is that this is something in itself worth noting. Should I say more? -Stevertigo
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body:
"You know, when I catch myself thinking bigoted things, I squelch them. I
don't send them off to an international mailing list with a note that I know
I'm being prejudiced."

Yeah, well... 'a man's entitled' to make an ass of himself on
occasion. -Stephen


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
I also want to vouch for Anonymous56789. He's been making very useful
contributions and been a good contributor. I think he should be a sysop too

Danny
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body:
On Thu, 06 Mar 2003 19:46:32 +1300, Richard Grevers
<dramatic at xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:40:48 -0800 (PST), Zoe
> <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I can't see any of the characters in Japanese and Chinese articles.  Is
>> there a site I can go to download the fonts so that I can see the
>> characters?
>>
> What browser do you use, Zoe? If it's Mozilla(etc) or Opera, you need
> only install the appropriate unicode fonts.
> (the best resource is http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/unicode/fonts.html ).

Oops - Alan's site is now at http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html

--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=GENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=#282828>

Stevertigo, it's bad enough that you post HTML e-mail to the mailing
list, but could you *please* not write in black-on-dark-gray?

I think I speak for most humans when I say it's not very legible. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Jonathan Walther

body:
On Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 06:38:48PM -0800, Axel Boldt wrote:
>I don't think it affects us: the reasoning of the court was that
>Matchmaker.com is partly responsible for the content because they
>partly created it, by providing the user with a long series of yes/no
>questions and targeted essay questions to produce the ad. But the
>Wikipedia non-profit doesn't do anything like that. Any harmful content
>posted on Wikipedia was created completely independently by the
>(ab)user. All the prodding they got from us was a textbox and a
>blinking cursor.

More realistic scenario: somone puts something defamatory on.  Another
person tries to remove it. Rest of Wikipedia dogpiles on person doing
the removing, forming a "consensus" that the information should remain
in.  Said person is then banned by Jimbo for his edits.  I think the
case would be pretty clear that the Wikipedia as a group, and Jimbo
Wales in particular, had "taken responsibility" for the content at that
point.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] internet-encyclopedia.info

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

>I have installed the wikipedia3 software at:
>
>http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml
>
>
>
Oh great. Another fork :(

>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Viewing non-Roman characters

body:
On Thu, 2003-03-06 at 21:01, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> Also, the euro sign displays as a circle with four lines radiating from it. Do
> I have an obsolete Verdana (I think it shows the same in Times New Roman in
> AbiWord), or a buggy Qt (unlikely, Abi doesn't use Qt) or what?

Example page and browser version?

Since you've provided no information, I can only make up some wild
guesses. ;)

Either:
* This alleged euro symbol is encoded as the international currency
symbol (the byte 0xA4 in iso-8859-1, or a ¤ or ¤ numeric
reference.) In this case, it's showing correctly, but was incorrectly
encoded by someone whose browser was using iso-8859-15.

or:
* This alleged euro symbol is encoded in some other horribly wrong way
which, somehow, ends up showing as the generic currency symbol.

or:
* This euro symbol is encoded correctly as € or €, in which
case there is a fault somewhere along the line between app, qt, and the
font library.

Can you take a look at http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sandbox ?
I've stuck some euro symbols and generic currency symbols up at the top,
please compare them. If the euro symbols look like real euro symbols,
then whatever you've been looking at is wrong and needs to be corrected;
please cite it.

If these euro symbols look wrong, then you'd best check a great many
configurations. ;)

Also, please try:
  xfd -fn `xlsfonts | grep verdana.\*iso8859-1`
  xfd -fn `xlsfonts | grep verdana.\*iso8859-15`
  xfd -fn `xlsfonts | grep verdana.\*iso10646-1`
or reasonable variation to see the things look correct showing
characters from those encodings directly.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
At 05:39 PM 3/6/03 -0800, Stevertigo wrote:
>Im familiar enough with Susan, and some of her bad habits... I will say hers
>are not  as bad as Formeruser:Clutch's bad habits, with whom I've agreed
>with on severa core  issues, and have corresponded privately. Nevertheless,
>he had (has)  a tendency to run off at the mouth...  Had he moderated his
>conduct - which is what I suggest for Susan... He'd not have been banned. No
>doubt if he apologizes sincerely, he should be allowed to return.  That
>Susan is Lir is irrelevant to me... (was there some theory about her working
>for some competitor?)

It's relevant because it's evidence that she *knows* the rules and chooses,
repeatedly, not to live by them.

>  Reincarnation is a fact of life, and quoting the
>Riddler "If you kill em, they wont learn nothin." I do understand Zoe's keen
>distaste for her, and share some of it. although the chauvinist in me does
>brush some of this off  as 'typical female jealousy' - for lack of a better
>expression.

You know, when I catch myself thinking bigoted things, I squelch them.
I don't send them off to an international mailing list with a note that I know
I'm being prejudiced.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Edit page Size warning

body:
On Thu, 2003-03-06 at 17:06, fdafd quoted from the Village Pump:
> STEVERTIGO::Brion? on the Wikipedia-l said that 30-50 was the range...

Please see my response to this gross mischaracterization of my position
at http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Thu, 2003-03-06 at 03:37, Magnus Manske wrote:
> I have reinstalled my interlanguage management at test.wikipedia.org.

I haven't yet had a chance to check out the updated code, but may I make
a quick suggestion?

"International issues" seems a strange title for the link & the page --
it makes me think of a stern Kofi Annan shaking his head as Hans Blix
examines our link integrity. ;)

"Other languages" or "Language connections" might be a better way to go.
(Or, heck, "Interlanguage links"!)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Pierre Abbat

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viewing non-Roman characters

body:
On Wednesday 05 March 2003 23:40, Zoe wrote:
> I can't see any of the characters in Japanese and Chinese articles.  Is
> there a site I can go to download the fonts so that I can see the
> characters?

I can see some, but not all. The ones that I don't have display as boxes,
which is confusing, since I can't tell a mouth from a notdef.

Also, the euro sign displays as a circle with four lines radiating from it. Do
I have an obsolete Verdana (I think it shows the same in Times New Roman in
AbiWord), or a buggy Qt (unlikely, Abi doesn't use Qt) or what?

phma


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
> Okay. People are actively editing [[List of songs whose title does not
> appear in their lyrics]]. Four or five people have assured me I am a rotten
> git for daring to question the necessity of this article, but I can't help
> it. I think the fact that people created, discussed, and edited this article
> is just wrong. Even worse, people I respect (e.g. Tannin and Tarquin) are
> working on this article.

Of course, we should have some criterion of usefulness, in addition to the
simple requirement of verifiability. However, it is much harder to
determine usefulness than verifiability. In the case of weird lists like
this one, I'd like to hear a convincing argument who might want to look it
up and why. If the answer is just the entertainment value, then I am
inclined to be skeptical about the need for the list's existence.

Ironically, I can see a more plausible argument for a "List of left-handed
US presidents" than one for this list, left-handedness being a phenomenon
that has long been claimed (not sure if this is still the case) to be
related to creativity.

I also agree with Cunctator that extracting this kind of data
automatically is obviously a better solution than typing it by hand. Once
again, in my category scheme, you would just write

[[Category:Left handed]]

below an article about a person, and when clicking that category, you
would get a list of other persons in the same category. You could also
have

[[Category:President]]

and could then do a query on pages which are in both categories. Same with
[[Category:Drink]] and [[Category:Banana-based food]].

Regards,

Erik