from_name: Darko Bulatovic

body:
Sabine Cretella wrote:
> You don't find translators offering it on various translator's portals
> (I checked three of them). These portals do not even include Montenegrin
> in their language search. (http://proz.com, http://gotranslators.com,
> http://translatorscafe.com).
>

Sabin, this is joke? right? Please tell when it is a joke as i am not
very funny when this topic is subject. Those companies have limited
language translations. I hope that you don't suggest that they translate
to all languages of world?
> I am not going to forward my single contacts since they are not involved
> with the wikimedia foundation and your politics and therefore remain
> protected.
>
> Well ... could you tell me why http://sdl.com does not offer
> Montenegrin? and http://logos.it and http://e-kern.com?
>
> Oh come on ... it is enough about politics. You use a different script
> to Serbian ... that's all ... btw. the funniest thing I came through was
> just one request asking for a translator for Serbian that can understand
> the Montenegrin dialect ... so: only one request about the so-called
> Montenegrin language on so many translation portals.
>
But Sabin, you talk about politic, your statement is colored by politic.
Not mine. I am just wondered by this epilogue here.
> In which language are your instruction manuals for computers, fridges,
> tv-sets etc. are written if there are obviously no translators offering
> Montenegrin as a  language they translate to (hmmm ... strange ... are
> there no translators in Montenegro or are they just not offering the
> language, because otherwise they would not get any jobs because the
> language is not known in the world?).
>
mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In
99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as
Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian
as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR
Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.
> A statement I got from a person that is neither Serbian nor Montenegrin,
> but interpreter (mind me interpreter, not translator) for that ONE
> language is that it is not even different enough in pronunciation to
> really create trouble to someone not being Serbian mothertongue to
> understand it - uhmmmmm ... . Mind me: we are talking about
> professionals who deal with languages every day, who make a living out
> of that.
>
That is very narrow research - one man is not enough. You didn't do much
effort on this topic but you did rush to make decision. Professionals
have limited area of work and they are specialized on some field not all.

Let him translate this:
Vidite li ?udo, Crnogorci!
Prisuka sam pedeset godinah,
na Lov?en sam vazda ljetovao,
izlazio na ovu vr?inu:
sto putah sam gledao oblake
?e iz mora do?u na gomile
i prekrile svu ovu planinu,
otisni se tamo ali tamo
s sijevanjem i s velikom jekom
i s lomljavom stra?nijeh gromovah;
sto putah sam ov?ena sjedio
i grija se mirno sprama sunca,
a pod sobom munje i gromove
gleda, slu?a ?eno cijepaju;
gleda jekom grada stravi?noga
?e s' poda mnom jalove oblaci,
al' ovoga ?uda jo?t ne vi?eh!
Vidite li, ako boga znate,
koliko je mora i primorja,
ravne Bosne i Hercegovine,
Arbanije upravo do mora,
koliko je na?e Gore Crne,
sve je oblak pritiska jednako,
svud se ?uje jeka i grmljava,
svud ispod nas munje sijevaju,
a nas jedne samo sunce grije.
I dosta je dobro primarilo
ka je ovo brdo vazda hladno.

or this:
A cujes li kumim te kapicom kako avetaju ovizi ovudijena, lutkica je sad
pocela o bliskom istoku ovi kako u rvacku mogu posrat pre$ednika ,no o
temi nista !!!!!!!!!!!! Ja mnim e bi me strpali u ludnicu kad bi lanuo
nesto za Gorana Persona ,a kamoli da ga nazivam lopovom ubicom marlborom
itd itd ! No na TEMU kudj se djedose oni slini procenti % te citah
potonjijeh godina ???? jesuli uvidjeli momcici da propaganda
veljeserbska im je unistila drzavu i zivot ??? To mene interesuje !

Please force him to be honest here and not to use other dictionaries.
> Btw. in which language is the Operating System of your computer?
>
> So please: instead of going ahead creating unneccessary problems, help
> to find a way to integrate people on the Serbian wikipedia.
>
> Thank you for your co-operation!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Sabine
>
>
My operating system is in English.

Sabine please, let be honest here, I don't make problem, you make
problem and don't switch these here. You didn't do your work and this
level of discussion is not what I expected from member of language
committee. I have given a proof of (professional) company that do
translation from/to Montenegrin and you give me companies that don't?
What that mean?If I find translation company that don't translate to
Hindu that language don't exist?... You need to find alibi to clear your
self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts
that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into
conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity
of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language
of different people.
You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics
I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly
deny that. How should I feel about this?
You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic
from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to
anyone from former Yugoslavia. This is anti democratic and anti human.
This looks to me, sadly, like situation that happen on beginning of 90
when Serbs forced all to be under their national identity and because
this was all wars on Balkan. Your opinion seems to me that is under this
sort of propaganda.

Today when war is over and we know everything what happen and we did go
peacefully for our freedom, you make you self blind and you talk me
about working under Serbian wikipedia?

I hoped that this is not a case about you Lady. You seems don't know
that all nation are forced to go out from Yugoslavia because this kind
of "story".

It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you
need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this
kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to
translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one
language.

I think that members of committee made this the problem as their
judgment was not based on fairness or truth. It is based on something
that they need to explain. I am waiting that explanation officially.

Thank you,
Darko Bulatovic

p.s. I have see that other write Sabin so I am sorry if I used this in
wrong way.


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject: [Foundation-l] Montenegrin request for new language wikipedia


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Marco Schuster

subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
Brion Vibber schrieb:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Sherool wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:12:50 +0100, Ilmari Karonen wrote:
>>
>>> I'm genuine interested; there are things the TIFF format can do that PNG
>>> can't, but I'd like to know which features you need and why.
>>>
>> I would guess the ability to include multiple "pages" in one file.
>>
>
> Which, of course, is an ability that's very poorly supported.
>
Depends on which OS you use. Windows 98, 2k and XP have included the
program "Imaging", which is able to produce and read them.

Regards,
Marco


list: foundation-l

from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:

> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.

I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince
absolutely no-one here.

- d.


list: wikien-l

from_name: Daniel R. Tobias

subject: [WikiEN-l] Deletions, lists, etc?

body:
On 29 Nov 2006 at 15:28, The Cunctator wrote:

> On 11/29/06, Guettarda <guettarda at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > It doesn't matter if the article was about [[World War II]] and the
> > discussion only involved three people would voted delete on the grounds of
> > "never heard of it", DRV is supposed to comment on process, not merits of
> > deletion (you'll be told "that's what *fD is for, and you should have
> > commented when you had the chance).
>
> That's total bullshit.

Only partial bullshit.  There really *are* factions around who behave
exactly as described.  They aren't always the majority in the
appropriate areas at any given time, and they don't always win the
debates, but they're there.

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


body:
geni wrote:
> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In
>> 99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as
>> Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian
>> as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR
>> Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.
>>
>
> Then why not continue to use it?
>
>
Because it those not exist any more.
>> ... You need to find alibi to clear your
>> self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts
>> that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into
>> conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity
>> of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language
>> of different people.
>>
>
> According to your government the language of Montenegro is Serbian of
> the Ijekavian dialect. The Declaration of Montenegrin PEN Center
> doesn't claim it as anything more than a dialect.
>
>
>
According to the constitution (your source ) Montenegro is part of SR
Yugoslavia. Do you claim that also? Please read draft for new constitution.

>
>> You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics
>> I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly
>> deny that. How should I feel about this?
>>
>
> You should consider the possibility of transferring your
> understandable national pride to other things.
>
You could consider to stop telling me that language in which I talk
don't exist.

>
>> You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic
>> from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to
>> anyone from former Yugoslavia.
>>
>
> Miloshevic is dead.
>
But not his politic which is sad.

>> It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you
>> need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this
>> kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to
>> translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one
>> language.
>>
>
> No at most 22% of your country describes the language they speak as
> Montenegrin. That would be a little over 140K people.
>
So you admit that Montenegrin language exist? I don't follow you here?


body:
Birgitte SB wrote:
> --- geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>>
>>> Today when war is over and we know everything what
>>>
>> happen and we did go
>>
>>> peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
>>>
>> blind and you talk me
>>
>>> about working under Serbian wikipedia?
>>>
>> No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English
>> wikipedia it is
>> the English language wikipedia. Just because there
>> was once a country
>> called England does not mean that the wikipedia
>> belongs to that
>> country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language.
>> In this case the
>> correct name for the language would probably be
>> Serbo-Croatian.
>>
>>
>>
>
> This right here is the key the whole thread.
> Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written
> languages not nations.  The goal should be to have the
> least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate
> reasources.  When in doubt we should not create a
> subdomain.
>
> The question I have is are we going to examine all
> current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near
> future for merging possibilities?
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
Birgittee,

Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.

Darko Bulatovic


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Startup looking for Superstar Wiki Developer (SF
	Bay Area)

body:
On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 05:20:06PM -0500, The Cunctator wrote:
> Do you get paid by the asterisk?

Best.  One-liner.  Ever.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	(I've been informed that the 'divorce' quote makes me look
	misogynistic, even though Jennifer Crusie is (pretty obviously)
	a female romance novelist.  So I've removed it. :-)


body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>
>
>> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
>> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
>> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
>>
>
>
>
David,

I just asked people here to explain me with what facts they have build
up their opinion. No one did that. They just gave stereotypes and
assumptions. And now I will give some data.

I will give one part translation of one linguist on this matter:
Sorbonne before 25 years had opened class on which was studied language
which we called serbo-croatian and which today our students study under
3 names: Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian. Personally I think there will be
place for Montenegrin. I am glad that that languages and literature are
present on Sorbonne with thanks of me and my former colleague which has
doctorate on "Njegos"(Montenegrin Philosopher). Importance and image of
our University obligate us to maintain level and quality of study and we
improve it all the times.

POL LUI TOMA, chief of Slavic Class(Katedra) on University of Sorbonne
Paris.

So David Montenegrin is matter of quality on Sorbonne but not for you.

Same linguist :

Q: Which one linguistic reasons are that official French science
admitted Bosnian or Bosnjak language and started to study it on Sorbonne?
A: We are not here in domain of science, we are in social-linguistic
domain. If they which speak one language and it is base  on some
differences, and if they see that they language is different and if
their rules that differ even little, they can state that this is
language which have different name. Why not?

Same linguist:

Difference between Language and dialect is very subjective matter. Is
the korzikans language or dialect? Some of Korsikans will say it is
language, and others will say it is one of Italian dialects.

So Much about your objectivity in this. Specially claiming that
Montenegrin is dialect of Serbian as that is ridiculous and just show
that you don't have a clue about South Slavic languages.

One reference to old times:
Ljubomir Nenadovic in "Letters" from 1858
" I have found i Montenegrin schools they learn to talk Montenegrin
language..."

Simo Matavulj in " Notes of one writer" he cite words of one Montenegrin
Toma Vukotica about seeking some theatre group for performing " Balkan
Queen"(Montenegrin performance) made by Montenegrin King Nikola:
" Are indeed that people from street can speak our language, pure
Montenegrin, like it is written? Let God save me! You would not
understand every third word.... even the best actors in Belgrade cant
talk out language...."

And newer date:
Linguist Dubravko Skiljan 1996
Closest to be called as separated language is not Croatian it is
Montenegrin - at that moment when they put "SH, DZJ, ZJ" like separate
phonemes, which will probably have, which is not necessary, and separate
graphical symbols, they will make far more dedicated step than what was
done here in purpose of language distinctions . Because that is
something that clearly make difference language structure - number or
system of phoneme(fonem))

And to understand this problematic people need to know history of
language in this region. But they seems do have time to negate and to
make assumptions but not to study this problematics. I know it is easier.

But I think that Klein is right, many last replies was just with no
productive value. I will wait for official explanation from committee,
so we could go further in trying to solve this problem, as this
discussion didn't give me any objective fact or argument that could
support this denial of request.

Thank you
Darko Bulatovic


from_name: Milos Rancic

body:
In short, there are two options:

- to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or
- to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian to
Montenegrin variant.

In this issue (which is related to political linguistics) the main
problem are preferences. From Southren Serbia to Istria all people
will perfectly understand each other if they are talking in their own
standards (in general, Croatian standard is a little bit more distant
then others). But, not so small amount of preferences makes
differences between standard languages. Plus, very good knowledge of
one standard means that you may talk with others, but doesn't mean
that you may write in other standard (even I have a good Slavistic
bacground, I have a lot of problems to write in Croatian standard).

And everyone has right to:
- call her/his language as (s)he wants;
- to be educated in her/his native language.

And Wikipedia is about those rights.


from_name: geni

body:
On 12/2/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> In short, there are two options:
>
> - to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or
> - to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian to
> Montenegrin variant.
>

Or run a single wiki the way we do with british and american english.

> And everyone has right to:
> - call her/his language as (s)he wants;

Doesn't mean anyone else has to accept it.

> - to be educated in her/his native language.
>
> And Wikipedia is about those rights.

Nope. Not in the proposed mission statement and with good reason.

--
geni


body:
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
> Because it those not exist any more.

Lanaguages take more than a handfull of years to die.

> According to the constitution (your source ) Montenegro is part of SR
> Yugoslavia. Do you claim that also? Please read draft for new constitution.

Is it written in english?

> You could consider to stop telling me that language in which I talk
> don't exist.

I'm not trying to claim that. I'm putting forward a position that you
are useing the wrong name for it.

> But not his politic which is sad.

Last I cheacked his part wasn't doing to well in elections.

> So you admit that Montenegrin language exist? I don't follow you here?

You claim half a million speakers. If we were to accept that
Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language then at most it has
little more than 150K speajkers. There is nowehere for half a million
speakers to come from.

--
geni


body:
Birgitte SB wrote:
>
>
> I don't understand how I put words in you mouth.  What
> I wrote about this being the key is my own opinion.  I
> and I do believe basing languages subdomains off
> mutually intelligable written languages is the key.
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
Birgitte,

If you find that taking out of context is right thing to do, no problem.

Darko Bulatovic


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-12-03

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/maintenance/parserTests.txt"...
Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Template with thumb image (with link in description)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Don't fall for the self-closing div... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Always escape literal '>' in output, not just after '<'... FAILED!

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...

Passed 451 of 471 tests (95.75%)... FAILED!


body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
>>> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
>>> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
>>>
>> I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince
>> absolutely no-one here.
>>
>
> I am not at all convinced that we should have even the 3 wikipedias we
> have right now.  In general, it is quite reasonable to say that there is
> in fact one language here, not 3, not 4, not 10.
>
> The problem of two writing systems is a difficult one, yes.  But the
> fact remains that if you sit down over a beer with people from all these
> dialects, they can laugh and joke and have fun together just as well as
> people with different dialects of English.
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
Yes you are right Jimbo, but those people have problem to write same.
And it will look very silly if you combine it. So it is not exactly
"dialect" it is variations that have different rules.
One caricature :
Kud si aknula, dite na izvan, bona bre, sakam te, ce ge vidimo mori da
gi ne pometesh.
I ne brini sakam te, i odistina ce te fukam do zorata, te dua, moja
djevojko."

Darko Bulatovic


body:
On 12/3/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
> No but in last draft it was stated:
>
>     C(lan 15(Jezik i pismo)- U Crnoj Gori u slu`benoj upotrebi je
> crnogorski jezik.
>     15. Language - In montenegro in official usage is Montenegrin language.

And yet the country is able to function without that. It would be very
hard for the UK to function with german as the official langauge,

> And I am putting forward the position that I have right to call my
> language as I think,

But no one else has to accept that name

> and that you have same right for yours.

If I tried to rename my language to yorkshirese I think you would ignore that.

>And if I
> say that you don't have right to tell me that I call it with wrong name
> and that you are using the wrong name.... To where this leads? To
> separation? Divorce? No love? No happiness? No kids(any good)?
>
> At least please respect right of people to call their language as they
> think it is appropriate.

English has a somwhat limited history of careing about what the locals
call their language ( just ask the germans)

> I sad that this matter affect half of million. In that number are
> included speakers and listeners.

Considering the demographics on montenegro that is somewhat unlikely.
If Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language most likely it is
only spoken in that form in the centre of Montenegro

> And when new constitution comes this
> number will be greatly different in both speakers and listeners.

That would only be posible if does not exist other than as a renameing
of a form of Serbo-Croatian. Addopting a new constitution is unlikely
to result in much of a linguistic shift in the population

--
geni


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Slashdot: Gracenote Founder Rewriting History At
	Wikipedia

body:
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/02/1955245

- d.


body:
geni wrote:
> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> Because it those not exist any more.
>>
>
> Lanaguages take more than a handfull of years to die.
>
>
>> According to the constitution (your source ) Montenegro is part of SR
>> Yugoslavia. Do you claim that also? Please read draft for new constitution.
>>
>
> Is it written in english?
>
No but in last draft it was stated:

    C(lan 15(Jezik i pismo)- U Crnoj Gori u slu`benoj upotrebi je
crnogorski jezik.
    15. Language - In montenegro in official usage is Montenegrin language.
>
>> You could consider to stop telling me that language in which I talk
>> don't exist.
>>
>
> I'm not trying to claim that. I'm putting forward a position that you
> are useing the wrong name for it.
>
>
And I am putting forward the position that I have right to call my
language as I think, and that you have same right for yours. And if I
say that you don't have right to tell me that I call it with wrong name
and that you are using the wrong name.... To where this leads? To
separation? Divorce? No love? No happiness? No kids(any good)?

At least please respect right of people to call their language as they
think it is appropriate. If you have some evidence that show different
please share with me, and if it is just based on your impression, ok I
will not comment it again.

>
>> But not his politic which is sad.
>>
>
> Last I cheacked his part wasn't doing to well in elections.
>
But radicals are very busty this days.... try to read some about them...
I don't wish to talk anymore about politic I am not here because of
that. Let talk about Montenegrin language.
>
>> So you admit that Montenegrin language exist? I don't follow you here?
>>
>
> You claim half a million speakers. If we were to accept that
> Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language then at most it has
> little more than 150K speajkers. There is nowehere for half a million
> speakers to come from.
>
I sad that this matter affect half of million. In that number are
included speakers and listeners. And when new constitution comes this
number will be greatly different in both speakers and listeners. One
point here that last few decades showed very strange variations in data
about Montenegro.

Darko Bulatovic


from_name: William Stanley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Helene Goldnadel International Creative Artists

body:
Hi  I just signed up for this list and I would like to thank you for accepting my registration.

Helene Goldnadel
http://www.HeleneGoldnadel.com
International Creative Artists

____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Phrase and fable

body:
charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com wrote:

>Ray Saintonge wrote
>
>
>>Pop culture is as important a part of culture as history or science.
>>
>>
>I doubt even the Beatles will have the long-term consequences of Crick-Watson.
>
True enough.  Nevertheless if you ask the man on the street about
Crick-Watson you are more likely to get a blank stare than if you ask
him about the beetles.  Direct consequentiality is only one measuring
stick for determining the importance of a person, object or event.
Einstein is perhaps the best remembered name among scientists, but very
few who remember his name have a clue of what he was talking about.

It will be a long while before we know the full cultural impact of the
Beetles.  What we hear today of Bach or Gregorian chant is still a
modern interpretation of these works, but there are recordings of the
Beetles and other twentieth century musicians performing their own
works.  That creates a different dynamic.  Books have fared better
because they could penetrate to the masses much earlier.

The image of Mickey Mouse has persisted long enough to motivate the
Disney Corporation to seek extensions to the term of copyrights.
Cabbage-patch dolls drew their inspiration from the top selling novel of
1902.  We cannot know now whether Pok?mon will have a long-lasting
cultural impact, nor can we know that about any other currently popular
offering.  All we can do is document what is happening so that our
readers will understand allusions to them.  We can offer plot summaries
and character lists based on these works themselves, but we should not
be offering our own analysis about what they mean or speculations about
their future impact.  That _would_ be original research.

>Pop culture is the bunch of sticks that makes flimsy individual elements into something with a higher breaking point.
>
And when you can't be sure which struts or joists are essential to
keeping the bridge from falling, it is safer to keep the sticks in place.

Ec


from_name: Matthew Brown

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Categories vs lists vs navboxes (was Re: Deletions,
	lists, etc?)

body:
On 12/3/06, charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com
<charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "Steve Bennett" wrote
>
> > And for navigational ability and visibility of related
> > articles, nothing beats a navbox.
>
> And the capacity to irritate people who can navigate without the intrusion, thank you all the same.
> One per article is quite enough, and often too many.

I find navboxes tolerable when something is obviously one of a small
set of related things.  I dislike them when someone decides to make a
group of topics into a "<whatever> series" when they aren't obviously
that closely related. E.g. the first example of it I ever saw,
"Wikipedia's Electronic Music Series", which seemed to collect
evertything the box's creator thought was important to electronic
music.  The latter type seem to clash with NPOV, for one thing.

-Matt


from_name: David Ashby

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/3/06, Daniel R. Tobias <dan at tobias.name> wrote:
> On 30 Nov 2006 at 22:29, "Oldak Quill" <oldakquill at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Discussing everything and achieving community concensus, rather than
> > acting on the instinct of one particular user, is a tenant of
> > Wikipedia.
>
> A tenant of Wikipedia?  How high is the rent?
>

Oh, it's free to live here, but you have to vacuum the lobby when it gets dirty.

-humblefool


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 30 Nov 2006 at 22:29, "Oldak Quill" <oldakquill at gmail.com> wrote:

> Discussing everything and achieving community concensus, rather than
> acting on the instinct of one particular user, is a tenant of
> Wikipedia.

A tenant of Wikipedia?  How high is the rent?

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


from_name: Anthony

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Caricatures ,
	fair use photographs and illustratice comics

body:
On 12/1/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> Then both licenses should apply. But this is pretty clearly a derivative,
> not aggregate work.
>
Aggregate works under the GFDL almost always are derivative works.

In this case yes, it's clearly a derivative, but it's not clear
whether or not it's an aggregate (per the definition under the GFDL).
There really are no precedents as to what an aggregate is under the
GFDL.  If mixing images and text into an integrated work is not
considered an aggregate under the GFDL, then the majority of
Wikipedia's articles which contain images are in violation of the
GFDL.

This is not really a can of worms worth opening.

Anthony

> On 12/1/06, Anthony <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 12/1/06, the wub <thewub.wiki at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Much as I hate meaningless fuss over copyright, aren't these comics
> > > incorrectly licensed? The text is directly taken from Wikipedia articles
> > -
> > > presumably under the GFDL. But the images are licensed as CC-BY-SA, with
> > no
> > > reference to either the GFDL or fair use.
> > >
> > > That aside, they are quite brilliant.
> > >
> > > the wub
> >
> > Presumably text and images under different licenses can be combined to
> > form an aggregate work.  Wikipedia articles do this all the time.
> >
> > Anthony
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


list: commons-l

from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [Commons-l] FYU : Democracy Player

body:
On 12/3/06, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com> wrote:
> There is a software called "Democracy Player" [1] which is open source
> (XUL-based, like Firefox/Thunderbird), plays lots'o'video formats
> (including OGM), and can handle video streams.
>
> This might be the answer to the commons video dispute. The page also
> explains how to turn web-based videos into streams that then can be
> viewed via Democracy Player.

I wasn't aware that there was an ongoing 'dispute'.

How does this change our position from what we've had before? (VLC and
VLC plugin)

I wouldn't expect much, because the windows version of it is based on VLC.

Also,
"In terms of open-source, patent-unencumbered codecs like Theora, our
goal is to support them as soon as we can, and -- once open-source
media players and publishing tools get a bit more solid and
commonplace -- to nudge publishers to use them."

Implies that even though it's based on VLC, it lacks Theora support.
(Perhaps only on mac where it's  based on QT? ..  nope, No theora
support in the linux port, which seems to be based on xinelib, even
with theora support in xinelib.. In fact, without stealing the Windows
dlls xinelib is unable to play all the formats democracy player claims
to play, ... so much for cross platform! )

Hopefully, people will remember this the next time they want to clame
that OGM is a good extension for Ogg/Theora.

I'm not seeing what this would offer us over VLC and perhaps the VLC
browser plugin. I guess the control widgets are nice.


from_name: Birgitte SB

body:
--- Bence Damokos <bdamokos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi!
> I am an outsider in this dispute, but I would like
> to give my opinion on the
> state of these four languages as I see them, after
> learning for some time
> Croatian, and having spoken with a friend who is
> more knowledgable than me.
>
> What I see is that Montenegrin uses the ijekavica
> dialect of the so-called
> Serbo-Croatian language (which I think is THE
> artificial one from the 5
> mentioned), while the Serbians use the ekavica
> dialect. This makes every
> second word different. Even though either is
> acceptable, you wouldn't wanna
> mix them in an article (as mixing British or
> American spelling: no one would
> really notice), it would stop your "train of
> thought" to decode each woord
> and decide which dialect it was written in.
> Requiring the use of either one
> would be unfair, and would violate the free speech
> rights of either of them,
> also it would lead to some more unnecessary tension.
>
> Croatian uses latin script, and ijekavica (at least
> the official dialect),
> so Montenegrins could integrate there? Wrong.
> Montenegrin has many words
> borrowed from Turkish that Croatians might not
> understand, or would
> constantly replace with their Croatian counterparts,
> or just remove from
> articles.
>
> The difference of words and dialect is a main
> difference between Serbian in
> Croatian. Apart from the dialet problem mentioned
> with the Montenegrins,
> Serbian language tends to use Western words by
> transliterating it
> phonetically into Serbian language, while Croatian
> tends to invent their own
> words. Compromise on this ground would either ignite
> tension, or be a factor
> in "deteriorating" Croatian language by introducing
> foreign words, for which
> there is already a Croatian version in use.
>
> Bosnian: I'm no expert here, why this is a separate
> language :), if not for
> political reasons. I guess they have many Turkish
> words too. Anyway, if
> there is a Bosnian wiki, a Montenegrin one could
> also be.
>
> Also, if I'm correct Montenegro had its state
> television in the Serbia and
> Montenegro era, that was broadcast it Montenegrin
> (language/dialect).
>
> In conclusion, Serbo-Croatian was an invented
> language, without machine
> translation between the ijekavica/ekavica/ikavica
> dialects choosing either
> that is not the official in any a part of the region
> would lead to tensions,
> and the difference in words might also lead to
> misunderstandings, or at
> least heart national feelings if a "dialect version
> of a word" is changed to
> an other "for better understanding".
>
> Anyway, I hope I didn't upset any one, and that I
> wasn't factually wrong, or
> misleading.
>
> Regards, Bence Damokos
>
> ps. OFF. why are there so many wikis in Italy?
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

I believe there is misunderstang over how the
variations of English are handled on en.WP.  There is
no mixing of the variations (which are more than just
spelling), and people would definately notice if there
was.  The way it works is that in an article on
England, British conventions are used.  In an article
on America, the American conventions are used.  In an
article on Canada, Canadian conventions are used.
Whenever there is a general article common to all
areas (such as Dog) the original editor who started
the article chooses which conventions to  use.  No one
is allowed to go around changing the grammer and
spelling to their prefered standards on general
articles.  In article where the title would be
different (i.e. Petrol/Gasoline) a redirect is made to
the original title.  Of course people have not always
liked this method and have tried to go around changing
standards, but they are stopped and everyone moves on.
 I don't know these languages myself and I could be
wrong here, but I do not see any significant
differences from the situation in English.

BirgitteSB

____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 01/12/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In any case, you can write whatever you want on your own wiki.. We'll
>> even give you the software. :)
>
>
> One of the standard emails I get is people asking if such-and-such a
> site is run by us, because it looks JUST LIKE WIKIPEDIA!
>
> And by the way, even the Neo-Nazis have a wiki, WN Wiki, but it seems
> to have floundered - see
> http://www.vnnforum.com/printthread.php?t=27152 (warning: Neo-Nazi
> forum) .
>

I thought the cab^W^W Willy on Wheels got the better of it...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Categories vs lists vs navboxes (was Re:  Deletions,
 lists, etc?)

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 12/1/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Unfortunately, there are people who think categories are superior to lists
>> in all regards. I like to think there are exceptions.
>
> Cats are superior? Since when??
>

I love cats, they taste like chicken. Oh wait...

A category can't have annotations, but that doesn't mean they're not
useful; some of us like our information in large unadulterated doses :)

> One of the interesting differences is their role in the actual process
> of organising information (as opposed to the end result). Categories
> are good when you spot a similarity between a number of articles and
> want to start formalising that link. Lists are good when you see a
> need for a set of related articles that don't yet exist.
>

Yes...

> Both are ok for allowing navigation through sets of related articles,
> but IMHO navigation boxes are much, much better.
>

Navboxes don't obsolete categories though. Would you have a navbox for
"living people"????

> Incidentally, Encyclopaedia Britannica (2004 edition on CD) seems to
> use hierarchical lists as its preferred method: At the bottom of an
> article, you get a list with varying levels of indentation. Clicking
> on an item takes you to another article guaranteed to have that same
> list. It works pretty well!
>

Sounds a lot like an "expanded" category/navbox.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: gwern branwen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Russian Wikipedia award?

body:
On 12/3/06, ????????? ??????? <alexander.sigachov at gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately my English is not so good to write report about this.
> But we have really received the prestigious national (powered by
> UNESCO) award in "Education and science" section.
>
> This is figurine
> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Premiya_runeta2006.jpg
>
> Fortunately, the monetary prize is absent (it would be not clear that
> we do with it). The ceremony will be broadcast on TV, and we hope,
> that it will involve new participants.
>
> Machine translation of the news release
> http://tinyurl.com/yb7m5a
>
> --
> Kunlabore,
> Alexander Sigachov (Ajvol)

While we're on the subject, I've added an (extremely crappy, which
needs tons of work) [[Runet]] article. It seems that Runet is some
sort of major ISP for Russia, like AOL in its prime, so this award has
probably driven tons of traffic to ru. Good job!

--Gwern


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 30 Nov 2006 at 22:15, Rich Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not that you actually asked, but that would be the Republican party.
> IIRC, GOP stands for "Grand Old Party".

Which is bizarre, given that it's actually the newer of the two major
parties.

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


from_name: Rob Church

subject:
[Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [18144]
	trunk/extensions/SelectCategory

body:
On 03/12/06, leon at svn.wikimedia.org <leon at svn.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Minor fixes, to avoid warnings. It's too lazy to just surpress them :-P

Doesn't it make you feel all warm and cosy inside, knowing you've
written better code?

Rob Church


subject: [WikiEN-l] overzealous image deletion?

body:
On 12/3/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/06, Steve Summit <scs at eskimo.com> wrote:
> > Also, if someone could let me know where this new policy has been
> > discussed, I'd appreciate it, so that I can register my (belated)
> > opinion on it.
>
> Isn't new exactly people have just finaly decided to inforce the
> policies we have had for a long time.

Hmm, not exactly.  People have decided to interpret the policies we've
had for a long time in a way that was not previously accepted.

-Matt


from_name: Rob Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/3/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/2/06, Rob Smith <nobs03 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 12/1/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >The day a kind, thoughtful, productive and intellectual person shows up
> > >to help us with the encyclopedia project while simultaneously asserting
> > >with all seriousness that the Nazi party of Germany was or is worthy of
> > >support, we'll have a hell of an interesting case on our hands.  But
> the
> > >reality is, that hasn't happened and seems very unlikely to ever
> happen.
> > >
> > >--Jimbo
> > >
> > Yes we have the example of Dr. Christina Jeffrey whom the ADL
> > vindicated with the words, "any characterization of you as
> > anti-Semitic or sympathetic to Nazism is unfair and unfounded".
> >
> > http://www.ngcsu.edu/bdf/bfried/cjeff.htm
> >
> > http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n9_v47/ai_16920435
> >
> > yet it makes up almost entirely the article
> >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives
> >
> > and is probably not adaquately covered there; pity the poor editor who
> > dares to undertake such a task.
>
> I doubt Dr. Jeffries is an example of someone who thinks Nazi Germany
> "was or is worthy of support", probably just someone who advocated
> examining history from different perspectives but who chose her words
> very poorly.
>
> Why not simply add the ADL information to the article instead of
> complaining about it here?  I know that had I been aware of that
> information I certainly would have added it to the article when I
> wrote it, so you can't claim you would have faced resistance inserting
> this.

The Epopt did that already.  The point being, even when a non-Nazi, non
Anti-Semitic scholar of good will states, ""The Nazi point of view, however
unpopular, is still a point of view"
they are permantly defamed by such authoritive sources as sitting members of
Congress.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-16920435.html

Nobs01


from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
On 12/3/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> A category can't have annotations, but that doesn't mean they're not
> useful; some of us like our information in large unadulterated doses :)

I certainly didn't say they're not useful...

> Navboxes don't obsolete categories though. Would you have a navbox for
> "living people"????

...or that they are totally replaceable by navboxes.

> Sounds a lot like an "expanded" category/navbox.

Yeah, with the proviso that the categories are usually pretty small.

There are times when a hand-edited, hand-annotated list is the only
real way to go (like lists of tallest structures, biggest
countries...) Similarly, being able to add articles to categories by
editing the *article* not the *category* is an indispensable
capability. And for navigational ability and visibility of related
articles, nothing beats a navbox. With the tools currently available,
we really need all three...

But what would really beat them all would be being able to store
semantic information on pages and have navboxes/lists generated
dynamically from that. I can't remember whether semanticwiki can do
this, but it would certainly be cool to be able to say on the article
{{building|500m}} and have that article automatically take place in
the relevant list, category and navbox...

Steve


from_name: Steve Summit

subject: [WikiEN-l] overzealous image deletion?

body:
Evidently someone has decided that fair use doesn't apply to
images of living people, that any image of a person (legitimately
fair use or not) can be speedily deleted, on the grounds that a
free image could be found or created.

I'm sure this issue has been hashed out at length somewhere, and
I'm not trying to reopen the argument here on the mailing list.
I just want to point out two things, in case someone here feels
like trying to straighten them out.

1. [[Template:Replaceable fair use]] says, "If this image is
determined to be replaceable within one week from <today>,
the image may be deleted by any administrator.  Do not remove
this tag."  This leaves me wondering what is supposed to happen
if, after a week, the image is not determined to be replaceable.

2. [[Template:Speedy-image-c]], which is being added to pages
which use images falling into this category, says "The image
above is a candidate for speedy deletion.  It will be deleted
seven days after being nominated".  But this conflicts with the
above -- there is no "if" or "unless".

Also, if someone could let me know where this new policy has been
discussed, I'd appreciate it, so that I can register my (belated)
opinion on it.


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] SOS -- Save Our Sources

body:
I've seen it happen and I'm pretty sure it continues to happen. Sometimes
websites disappear. Not that uncommon on the web, but it can be disastrous
for Wikipedia articles when those sites happen to be the source for an
article. I think there should be an organized effort to have pages for
uncommon sources cached and to replace dead links with their archived
counterparts. Is there such an effort yet?

Mgm


from_name: Michael Bimmler

subject: [WikiEN-l] SOS -- Save Our Sources

body:
On 12/3/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've seen it happen and I'm pretty sure it continues to happen. Sometimes
> websites disappear. Not that uncommon on the web, but it can be disastrous
> for Wikipedia articles when those sites happen to be the source for an
> article. I think there should be an organized effort to have pages for
> uncommon sources cached and to replace dead links with their archived
> counterparts. Is there such an effort yet?
>
?'ve sometimes seen WP articles linking to web.archive.org-entries,
when sites were missing. Don't know, whether this is what you meant...
Michael

> Mgm
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/3/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at
gmail.com<http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>>
wrote:
>
>I know that had I been aware of that
>information I certainly would have added it to the article when I
>wrote it, so you can't claim you would have faced resistance inserting
>this.

And the fact that the Office of Historian of the House of Representatives
sat vacant for 10 years speaks volumes about the status of this debate.  I
would hope that Wikipedia is designed to work past this impasse.  Thank you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives

Nobs01


from_name: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com

body:
"Steve Bennett" wrote

> And for navigational ability and visibility of related
> articles, nothing beats a navbox.

And the capacity to irritate people who can navigate without the intrusion, thank you all the same. One per article is quite enough, and often too many.

Charles

-----------------------------------------
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from_name: Arwel Parry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Russian Wikipedia award?

references:
<mailman.17478.1165002775.9606.wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org>
	<4571F0EF.5070000@earthlink.net>
	<4571F0EF.5070000-ihVZJaRskl1bRRN4PJnoQQ@public.gmane.org>
	<6465924d0612021444p4929b613p8bc6c4edc7a5f6c3@mail.gmail.com>

body:
In message
<6465924d0612021444p4929b613p8bc6c4edc7a5f6c3 at mail.gmail.com>, Patrick
Hall <pathall-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> writes
>Hi Michael,
>
>> According to our tip line at The Wikipedia Signpost, the Russian
>> Wikipedia has some kind of notice on their front page, apparently about
>> winning some kind of honor for the Russian-language Web. If so,
>> congratulations! Anybody who reads Russian or knows something more about
>> this?
>
>FWIW, there are some English captions on some the photos at
>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Premia_Runeta_2006 .
>
>Here are a few:
>
>"Russian Wikipedia - Runet-2006 prize winner. Ajvol addressing the
>audience after receiving the prize."
>"Russian Wikipedia - Runet-2006 prize winner. Stas addressing the
>audience after receiving the prize."
>"Russian Wikipedia - Runet-2006 prize winner. Wulfson with the prize
>in his hand."

Ah! So that explains the addition to their logo! Congratulations to
ru.wiki, anyway.

--
Arwel Parry


subject:
[WikiEN-l] oh joy, oh rapture,
 oh bliss: the userbox wars are reignited

body:
Steve Summit wrote:
> The Cunctator wrote:
>> ...imagine at the bottom of an article instead of just listing the
>> categories it belonged to in "boring" text each category had its
>> own pretty colored box with some goofy icon.  That would be AWESOME.
>
> WP:BEANS!  WP:BEANS!  WP:BEANS!  WP:BEANS!  WP:BEANS!
>

Been there, done that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pastelbox.gif

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
SJ Klein wrote:
> Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something
> like language-l at wikimedia.org ?
>

I think it got merged into wikipedia-l...

Mindspillage's law: As the length of an argument on wikipedia-l or
foundation-l approaches infinity, the probability of it turning into a
language debate approaches 1.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
SJ Klein wrote:
> Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something
> like language-l at wikimedia.org ?
>

I think it got merged into wikipedia-l...

Mindspillage's law: As the length of an argument on wikipedia-l or
foundation-l approaches infinity, the probability of it turning into a
language debate approaches 1.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
SJ Klein wrote:
> Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something
> like language-l at wikimedia.org ?
>

I think it got merged into wikipedia-l...

Mindspillage's law: As the length of an argument on wikipedia-l or
foundation-l approaches infinity, the probability of it turning into a
language debate approaches 1.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
SJ Klein wrote:
> Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something
> like language-l at wikimedia.org ?
>

I think it got merged into wikipedia-l...

Mindspillage's law: As the length of an argument on wikipedia-l or
foundation-l approaches infinity, the probability of it turning into a
language debate approaches 1.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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from_name: Bence Damokos

body:
Hi!
I am an outsider in this dispute, but I would like to give my opinion on the
state of these four languages as I see them, after learning for some time
Croatian, and having spoken with a friend who is more knowledgable than me.

What I see is that Montenegrin uses the ijekavica dialect of the so-called
Serbo-Croatian language (which I think is THE artificial one from the 5
mentioned), while the Serbians use the ekavica dialect. This makes every
second word different. Even though either is acceptable, you wouldn't wanna
mix them in an article (as mixing British or American spelling: no one would
really notice), it would stop your "train of thought" to decode each woord
and decide which dialect it was written in. Requiring the use of either one
would be unfair, and would violate the free speech rights of either of them,
also it would lead to some more unnecessary tension.

Croatian uses latin script, and ijekavica (at least the official dialect),
so Montenegrins could integrate there? Wrong. Montenegrin has many words
borrowed from Turkish that Croatians might not understand, or would
constantly replace with their Croatian counterparts, or just remove from
articles.

The difference of words and dialect is a main difference between Serbian in
Croatian. Apart from the dialet problem mentioned with the Montenegrins,
Serbian language tends to use Western words by transliterating it
phonetically into Serbian language, while Croatian tends to invent their own
words. Compromise on this ground would either ignite tension, or be a factor
in "deteriorating" Croatian language by introducing foreign words, for which
there is already a Croatian version in use.

Bosnian: I'm no expert here, why this is a separate language :), if not for
political reasons. I guess they have many Turkish words too. Anyway, if
there is a Bosnian wiki, a Montenegrin one could also be.

Also, if I'm correct Montenegro had its state television in the Serbia and
Montenegro era, that was broadcast it Montenegrin (language/dialect).

In conclusion, Serbo-Croatian was an invented language, without machine
translation between the ijekavica/ekavica/ikavica dialects choosing either
that is not the official in any a part of the region would lead to tensions,
and the difference in words might also lead to misunderstandings, or at
least heart national feelings if a "dialect version of a word" is changed to
an other "for better understanding".

Anyway, I hope I didn't upset any one, and that I wasn't factually wrong, or
misleading.

Regards, Bence Damokos

ps. OFF. why are there so many wikis in Italy?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 130/11/06 *Old**ak Quill* <oldakquill at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 30/11/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com <http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>> wrote:
> >* Yes, but the consensus is amongst the vast majority of non-Nazis that*>* they are offensive.  There is no need for an all or nothing*>* requirement here.*
> The concensus among most non-Republicans is that they are morally
> offensive. The same goes for the Democrats. So what?
>
> After the Christina Jeffrey affair, the post of Historian of the House of
Representatives sat
 vacant for 10 years until the appointment of Robert V. Remini author of
numerous works on the founder of the Democratic Party, Andrew Jackson.  The
Wikipedia article refers to his policy of "Indian Removal"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson#.22Indian_Removal.22

of course today we would use terms like "deportation" or "extermination".
This Amazon book review uses the term "racist".

http://www.amazon.com/Andrew-Jackson-His-Life-Times/dp/0385507380


from_name: Rob

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/2/06, Rob Smith <nobs03 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12/1/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> >
> >The day a kind, thoughtful, productive and intellectual person shows up
> >to help us with the encyclopedia project while simultaneously asserting
> >with all seriousness that the Nazi party of Germany was or is worthy of
> >support, we'll have a hell of an interesting case on our hands.  But the
> >reality is, that hasn't happened and seems very unlikely to ever happen.
> >
> >--Jimbo
> >
> Yes we have the example of Dr. Christina Jeffrey whom the ADL
> vindicated with the words, "any characterization of you as
> anti-Semitic or sympathetic to Nazism is unfair and unfounded".
>
> http://www.ngcsu.edu/bdf/bfried/cjeff.htm
>
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n9_v47/ai_16920435
>
> yet it makes up almost entirely the article
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives
>
> and is probably not adaquately covered there; pity the poor editor who
> dares to undertake such a task.

I doubt Dr. Jeffries is an example of someone who thinks Nazi Germany
"was or is worthy of support", probably just someone who advocated
examining history from different perspectives but who chose her words
very poorly.

Why not simply add the ADL information to the article instead of
complaining about it here?  I know that had I been aware of that
information I certainly would have added it to the article when I
wrote it, so you can't claim you would have faced resistance inserting
this.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/3/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why not simply add the ADL information to the article instead of
> complaining about it here?

Sorry, I'm used to the people on the list being Wikipedia participants
and I forgot that you have some sort of Arbcom prohibition on you so
you can't actually edit. My apologies.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Phrase, fable, popular culture

body:
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:

>>From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
>>
>>Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I glanced yesterday at a recent dictionary 'of phrase and fable',
>>>>which had a Pokemon article.
>>>>
>>>>
>>It's amazing how pop culture articles make people squirm so much.  I
>>don't really do anything with them, but they have never bothered me.
>>Pop culture is as important a part of culture as history or science.
>>Naturally, we want to make sure that fictional characters aren't put
>>forth as something more real than they are,   If we confine
>>ourselves to
>>"scholarly treatment" it strikes me as though we would be putting
>>on the
>>same pompous airs of superiority that are often attrivbuted to
>>ivory towers.
>>
>>
>1) A "dictionary of phrase and fable" sounds like a _perfectly_ good
>source for Wikipedia material.
>
Absolutely.  Perhaps I misread something to think that Charles was
promoting the idea of a separate wiki for such things and pop culture.

>2) I think that by definition an "encyclopedia" does _and must_ carry
>a bit of what might be spun as "the same pompous airs of superiority
>that are often attributed to ivory towers." Just as there are such
>things as journalistic standards, we have a commitment to accuracy
>that goes beyond what is required of USENET postings and web forums.
>Any dedication to standards seems pompous to those who do not share it.
>
Even if I place myself clearly in the inclusionist end of the spectrum
that does not mean that I support an abandonment of all standards.  What
we include and the means by which we establish verifiability of what we
include are two different questions.  The degree of verifiability also
needs to vary with the subject.  For obvious reasons it needs to be very
strict when we write biographical material about living persons.  Many
pop culture items are at the other end of the scale.  What is in a comic
strip, a TV program, a video game, a murder mystery, etc. is evidence
for no more nor no less than what is in there, and we need to be careful
before we draw further conclusions.

I am fully aware that USENET, web fora and blogs are remarkable for
their lack of standards, and any use of these as evidence needs to be
done with extreme caution.  The pomposity arises more in the refusal of
some (but not all) academics to accept that ideas which have grown
outside of academia may be valid.  There is an inherent conservatism of
thought in academia, and, as in any professional environment, an
inherent received wisdom that is not easily challenged.  It would, of
course, be an extremist view to say that an idea developed outside of
academia is always valid.  Standards need enough flexibility to accept
that possibility.

>3) What makes me squirm about pop culture articles is their general
>low quality, lack of references, and air of inexperience. I think a
>good deal of them are being written from personal expertise. The edit
>wars I see on some of them convince me that these self-appointed
>experts have quite different opinions about the supposed content of
>the supposed canon, and the reader has no way to know which is
>correct. When people argue about the canon known as the Bible, they
>customarily cite chapter and verse. So, for that matter, do
>Holmesians. So should... what should I call them? Pokemonitors?
>
Pokemaniacs!

There is much to what you say about the pop culture articles, but I
would much prefer their having edit wars and learning about
collaboration there than on articles that "matter".  Perhaps we have
spent too much time debating about whether we want them at all
insteadrather than considering what we want them to do.  What the
characters in a TV program said or did is a question of fact that is
verifiable by reference to the program itself, though I admit that the
complement of out-takes sold with DVDs does not make things any easier.
When editors start adding opinion it is a completely different issue.

I wouldn't be complacent abour what is canonical in either the Bible or
Holmes.  The Bible has its apocrypha like the Gospel of Thomas, and
Holmes stories have been written by other authors than Arthur Conan
Doyle.  Who's to say whether Holmes movies are true to the original
stories.  The curved pipe popularly smoked by Holmes was not a part of
Doyle's original concept

>4) I do think that the "distanced" tone with which, say, Homeric
>mythology, and folklore are conveyed, is very misleading. (It doesn't
>help that a lot of it was filtered through Victorian English
>translations).
>
Chapman's Homer was published during the reign of James I, after whom is
named the King James Bible.  Keats wrote about it during the reign of
George III.  Be that as it may, the filter was more broadly one of
Protestant Christian mythology.

>I think a lot of this stuff was pop culture in its time. I suspect
>the ancients regarded Mars or Apollo in a way that is much closer to
>the way we regard Superman or Batman than to the way we regard the
>characters of Wagner's operas.
>
Building temples in someone's honour and for their worship suggests that
they played a far more important role in that society.  Do we dare
compare them to the Temple Complex to The Mouse and Duck in Anaheim?
Wagner's operas are a German thing that rests on yet another set of
mythologies.

>Homer was a superstar performer, and he probably riffed on his lyre
>like Bruce Springsteen. I've always heard that educated Greeks did
>not believe the gods and goddesses were real. I suspect the less
>educated ones may have had a degree of belief that was like the
>degree of belief that fans of professional wrestling have in their
>sport.
>
General literacy was not the norm in Homer's time.  Homer was a
compiler, not an originator.  The problem with literate people is they
often don't believe what they're told.  Perhaps Homer was more like a
Billy Graham or a medieval troubador than a Bruce Springsteen.  After
all, the guitar/lyre is only a prop for the message.  There were
certainly important Greeks that were questioning the gods, but there
were others such as the playwrights who were willing to exploit them.
Roman leaders did a much better job of exploiting the gods to promote
their own vested interests.

>I assume I'm not the only person who, as an adolescent, discovered a
>passage in the Odyssey, which, for some reason was not part of our
>assigned reading in class. The one about how Hephaestus catches Ares
>and Aphrodite making love. Literally catches them at it. Traps them.
>Nude. In a contraption of metal chains. Then calls all the gods and
>goddess to come and see them. Who stand around admiring Aphrodite and
>making coarse jokes. I'll bet I'm not the only adolescent that
>thought that was pretty hot. Did I mention that they were chained up
>nude, in the act, and exhibited to a crowd of acquaintances? Nude?
>
You can't expect the schools to be teaching about lolicon.  Try to
explain Deuteronomy 23:1 in a Sunday School.  The porter's speech is
often exceised from "correct" versions of Macbeth.  What I love about
the Trickster in native lore of North America is his habit of stepping
in when people are taking things too seriously.

Ec


from_name: Александр Сигачёв

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Russian Wikipedia award?

body:
Unfortunately my English is not so good to write report about this.
But we have really received the prestigious national (powered by
UNESCO) award in "Education and science" section.

This is figurine
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Premiya_runeta2006.jpg

Fortunately, the monetary prize is absent (it would be not clear that
we do with it). The ceremony will be broadcast on TV, and we hope,
that it will involve new participants.

Machine translation of the news release
http://tinyurl.com/yb7m5a

--
Kunlabore,
Alexander Sigachov (Ajvol)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Russian Wikipedia award?

body:
On 12/3/06, ????????? ??????? <alexander.sigachov at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've added an (extremely crappy, which
> > needs tons of work) [[Runet]] article. It seems that Runet is some
> > sort of major ISP for Russia, like AOL in its prime, so this award has
> > probably driven tons of traffic to ru. Good job!
>
> It is not a provider :)
>
> Runet is slang for "Russian Internet" (".ru" domain).
>
> --
> Kunlabore,
> Alexander Sigachov

Well, none of the English sources were all that clear about what it
was. One article about MSN moving into Russia lead me to believe it
was some sort of ISP, because it was being used in too specific a
sense - I wouldn't expect to see "Ennet" (English Internet) used that
way, so I didn't think it could be a generic term like that. If you
know what it really is, of course, the article could use help.

--Gwern
and I did mention the slang in the article


subject: [WikiEN-l] the WP:USURP policy needs comments

body:
At the suggestion of Essjay, I'm trying to publicize the
[[Wikipedia:Usurpation]]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Usurpation> proposed policy;
it's a useful extension to the current user renaming system which
would  allow beaucrats to rename active users in good standing to
already existing but totally unused (no edits or actions of any sort)
accounts.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of usernames which have never
been used in the slightest, and a lot of good short names have been
locked up because we don't allow them to be deleted or renamed to
something else (thus freeing up the original name). Quite a few users
have specifically asked for this despite the dim prospects; something
like 30 by now, I think.

Anyway, the proposals has gotten a fair bit of support, but it doesn't
seem to have been commented on by a lot of people, so the bureaucrats
I've talked to, like Essjay, aren't willing to simply declare it
policy or guideline because they are worried the community doesn't
really know about it. It'd be pretty good if people would go read it
and comment; it's rather unfortunate when good, consensus approved
proposals stagnate and die just because they don't reach whatever
magical number people are waiting for.

--Gwern
I've posted a version of this message to some other places to try to
drum up some interest or discussion. My apologies if you see this
multiple times.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> On 12/2/06, Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se> wrote:
>
>> For example, the image http://runeberg.org/img/nfad/0670.4.png is
>> 240 kbytes in 150 dpi 16-level grayscale PNG but only 200 kbytes
>> in 600 dpi bitonal TIFF G4.  The difference between 150 dpi
>> grayscale and 600 dpi bitonal becomes very clear when you try to
>> print the page on a 600 or 1200 dpi laser printer.
>
> Well, you should compare apples to apples. The image you specified
> becames only 58 kbytes wen saved as 1-bit (bitonal) PNG.

Nice. :)

> And bitmapped
> formats like PNG and TIFF have no concept of "dpi"- that's an external
> manipulation made by the printing program.

On the contrary, these formats do have such a concept; it's metadata
usually stored in the file header, describing the ratio between the
pixel-level representation and the physical size of the scanned source
or the expected printed output.

For PNG, DPI can be indicated in a pHYs data chunk:
http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG/#11pHYs

For TIFF, the XResolution, YResolution, and ResolutionUnit fields
indicate this data.

In both formats this is optional; not every image necessarily has a
physical size that makes sense. However the resolution fields can also
indicate the aspect ratio for non-square pixels, which are a reality for
instance when working in various video formats.

> You need to compare images with the same pixel sizes.

Generally one would want to do so, yes. :)

A comparison between two files of different resolution and color depth
may well be a valid one at times, but it's not relevant if you're trying
to compare the relative file sizes of the same raster data in different
file formats.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFc2MrwRnhpk1wk44RArCLAJ4hge/w4RABH3KIH+lmTIhGPczBmgCbBvr+
BDkseXEEwIhTuGbxFCA11oQ=
=AhSi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Oldak Quill

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 03/12/06, David Ashby <humble.fool at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/06, Daniel R. Tobias <dan at tobias.name> wrote:
> > A tenant of Wikipedia?  How high is the rent?
> >
>
> Oh, it's free to live here, but you have to vacuum the lobby when it gets dirty.

:)

--
Oldak Quill (oldakquill at gmail.com)


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Commons-l] FYU : Democracy Player

body:
There is a software called "Democracy Player" [1] which is open source
(XUL-based, like Firefox/Thunderbird), plays lots'o'video formats
(including OGM), and can handle video streams.

This might be the answer to the commons video dispute. The page also
explains how to turn web-based videos into streams that then can be
viewed via Democracy Player.

Magnus

[1] http://www.getdemocracy.com/


subject: [Commons-l] FYU : Democracy Player

body:
That would be "FYI" ;-)

On 12/3/06, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com> wrote:
> There is a software called "Democracy Player" [1] which is open source
> (XUL-based, like Firefox/Thunderbird), plays lots'o'video formats
> (including OGM), and can handle video streams.
>
> This might be the answer to the commons video dispute. The page also
> explains how to turn web-based videos into streams that then can be
> viewed via Democracy Player.
>
> Magnus
>
> [1] http://www.getdemocracy.com/
>


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] Why so many Italian language wikis

body:
Bence Damokos schreef:
> ps. OFF. why are there so many wikis in Italy?
When Italy was unified, the Florentine language was massaged and it
became the Italian language. In many parts of what became Italy other
languages were spoken, several of these languages are closer to Catalan
than they are to Italian.

NB the "correct" way to ask your question would have been "Why are there
so many wikis for language spoken in Italy?" (All the Wikimedia
Foundation wikis are in Florida :) )

Thanks,
    GerardM


body:
On 12/3/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bence Damokos schreef:
> > ps. OFF. why are there so many wikis in Italy?
> When Italy was unified, the Florentine language was massaged and it
> became the Italian language. In many parts of what became Italy other
> languages were spoken, several of these languages are closer to Catalan
> than they are to Italian.
>
> NB the "correct" way to ask your question would have been "Why are there
> so many wikis for language spoken in Italy?" (All the Wikimedia
> Foundation wikis are in Florida :) )
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Hi!
Thanks for the answer

Bence


from_name: Robth

subject: [WikiEN-l] overzealous image deletion?

body:
On 12/3/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> That isn't the correct template. The correct template is:
>
> [[Template:Refu-c]]
>
> Which could probably do with some rewording.

Turns out that {{subst:refu-c}} was just adding in {{speedy-image-c}}
with the correct date and {{replacethisimage}}.  That was rather
misleading, so I have changed this.

--
Robth
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Robth)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Russian Wikipedia award?

body:
On 03/12/06, ????????? ??????? <alexander.sigachov at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've added an (extremely crappy, which
> > needs tons of work) [[Runet]] article. It seems that Runet is some
> > sort of major ISP for Russia, like AOL in its prime, so this award has
> > probably driven tons of traffic to ru. Good job!
>
> It is not a provider :)
>
> Runet is slang for "Russian Internet" (".ru" domain).

Then the article needs fixing. What is the site RUNET.ru for? I can't
really see what's going except advertising and news. I assume it is a
general portal.

--
Oldak Quill (oldakquill at gmail.com)


from_name: David Ashby

body:
On 12/3/06, Matthew Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/06, charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com
> <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > "Steve Bennett" wrote
> >
> > > And for navigational ability and visibility of related
> > > articles, nothing beats a navbox.
> >
> > And the capacity to irritate people who can navigate without the intrusion, thank you all the same.
> > One per article is quite enough, and often too many.
>
> I find navboxes tolerable when something is obviously one of a small
> set of related things.  I dislike them when someone decides to make a
> group of topics into a "<whatever> series" when they aren't obviously
> that closely related. E.g. the first example of it I ever saw,
> "Wikipedia's Electronic Music Series", which seemed to collect
> evertything the box's creator thought was important to electronic
> music.  The latter type seem to clash with NPOV, for one thing.
>
> -Matt

Just spotted a TfD relating to this discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_December_1#Template:All_That

Input from all sides would be nice.

--humblefool


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] overzealous image deletion?

body:
On 12/3/06, Steve Summit <scs at eskimo.com> wrote:
> Evidently someone has decided that fair use doesn't apply to
> images of living people, that any image of a person (legitimately
> fair use or not) can be speedily deleted, on the grounds that a
> free image could be found or created.
>

There are exceptions but that is broadly speaking a correct
interpritation of our fair use policy.

> I'm sure this issue has been hashed out at length somewhere, and
> I'm not trying to reopen the argument here on the mailing list.
> I just want to point out two things, in case someone here feels
> like trying to straighten them out.
>
> 1. [[Template:Replaceable fair use]] says, "If this image is
> determined to be replaceable within one week from <today>,
> the image may be deleted by any administrator.  Do not remove
> this tag."  This leaves me wondering what is supposed to happen
> if, after a week, the image is not determined to be replaceable.
>

The administrator dealing with the deletion reads the reasons why it
is not replaceable and removes the tag.

> 2. [[Template:Speedy-image-c]], which is being added to pages
> which use images falling into this category, says "The image
> above is a candidate for speedy deletion.  It will be deleted
> seven days after being nominated".  But this conflicts with the
> above -- there is no "if" or "unless".
>
That isn't the correct template. The correct template is:

[[Template:Refu-c]]

Which could probably do with some rewording.

> Also, if someone could let me know where this new policy has been
> discussed, I'd appreciate it, so that I can register my (belated)
> opinion on it.

Isn't new exactly people have just finaly decided to inforce the
policies we have had for a long time.

--
geni


from_name: Rob Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/3/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What's the impasse?

The partisan impasse represented in the highest levels of an elected
democracy, i.e. that through baseless defamatory smears and wreckless
journalism one side can achieve a result.

Christina Jeffrey was "the best man for the job", so to speak;  the 10
vacancy only supports this conclusion.

nobs


from_name: Александр Сигачёв

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Russian Wikipedia award?

body:
> I've added an (extremely crappy, which
> needs tons of work) [[Runet]] article. It seems that Runet is some
> sort of major ISP for Russia, like AOL in its prime, so this award has
> probably driven tons of traffic to ru. Good job!

It is not a provider :)

Runet is slang for "Russian Internet" (".ru" domain).

--
Kunlabore,
Alexander Sigachov
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:ajvol


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/3/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/3/06, Rob Smith <nobs03 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12/3/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > What's the impasse?
> >
> > The partisan impasse represented in the highest levels of an elected
> > democracy, i.e. that through baseless defamatory smears and wreckless
> > journalism one side can achieve a result.
>
> As wicked cool as Wikipedia is, I don't think we can solve that
> problem.  We should probably be using this list to work on problems we
> can solve, or failing that, argue about AfD and userboxes.

Agreed; let's hope Wikipedia is a little more tolerant of scholars of good
will than some members of Congress and partisan journalists are.

nobs


from_name: Guettarda

body:
On 12/3/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A much simpler solution would have been this:
> http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6614
>
> I'm not really sure why it was rejected. There doesn't seem to me to
> be a lot of value in keeping "unused" accounts, and it shouldn't be
> too hard to come up with a workable, implementable definition of
> "unused" that everyone is happy with.
>
> Steve

You need to register an account if you want to set your preferences -
Wikipedia has more readers than writers, there are probably a number of
people who are familiar enough with the site to know this, but have no
interest in editing.

The other issue is one of authorship.  We can't re-use an account that has
made any edits, so what's the benefit in deleting accounts which haven't
been used in a while?

On 12/4/06, gwern branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > At the suggestion of Essjay, I'm trying to publicize the
> > [[Wikipedia:Usurpation]]
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Usurpation> proposed policy;
> > it's a useful extension to the current user renaming system which
> > would  allow beaucrats to rename active users in good standing to
> > already existing but totally unused (no edits or actions of any sort)
> > accounts.
> >
> > There are probably hundreds of thousands of usernames which have never
> > been used in the slightest, and a lot of good short names have been
> > locked up because we don't allow them to be deleted or renamed to
> > something else (thus freeing up the original name). Quite a few users
> > have specifically asked for this despite the dim prospects; something
> > like 30 by now, I think.
> >
> > Anyway, the proposals has gotten a fair bit of support, but it doesn't
> > seem to have been commented on by a lot of people, so the bureaucrats
> > I've talked to, like Essjay, aren't willing to simply declare it
> > policy or guideline because they are worried the community doesn't
> > really know about it. It'd be pretty good if people would go read it
> > and comment; it's rather unfortunate when good, consensus approved
> > proposals stagnate and die just because they don't reach whatever
> > magical number people are waiting for.
> >
> > --Gwern
> > I've posted a version of this message to some other places to try to
> > drum up some interest or discussion. My apologies if you see this
> > multiple times.
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: ATR

subject: [Foundation-l] [Juriwiki-l] Commons reuse FAQ updated

body:
Generally speaking logos are trademarks, they may not be "registered"
trademarks
with the USPTO, but they are still protected by "common law" (droit commun,
comme
le droit coutumier) even if statutory protection has not been afforded, and
even if
someone else files to use those as trademarks WMF can then oppose their use
if
they can prove that the foundation was using that logo as a trademark prior
to the
filing of the third party. I think the issue is: are all marks (logos,
wordmarks, or any
other trade dress that might identify WMF projects and activities)
copyrighted by
the foundation, as it seems to me that there is a controversy about who, if
anyone
owns the copyright of some WMF logos (such as the MediaWiki logo) are they
public domain (since they are generic) or are they GFDL/CC (as that is what
every
author agrees to when they upload their content to WMF servers. If the later
is
true the question is: does fair use under trademark law constrict the rights
granted
under any open source license that might allow copying, but not in relation
to
"in commerce" use of the mark or under any applicable "anti-dillution" law
in
any relevant jurisdiction that might apply if someone uses these marks in a
way
that confuses end users or consumers as to the origin of any work that uses
the
logo.

Alex T. Roshuk

----- Original Message -----
From: "florencedevouard" <anthere at anthere.org>
To: "Legal issues of Wikimedia (closed subscription)"
<juriwiki-l at wikimedia.org>
Cc: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>;
"Communications Committee" <wmfcc-l at mail.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Juriwiki-l] Commons reuse FAQ updated

| Wikimedia Foundation Logos
| The Wikimedia Foundation logo and logos for particular projects (such as
| Wikipedia and Commons) are trademarks of and copyrighted by the
| Wikimedia Foundation. They are not generally available for other uses,
| though reuse in press or media about Wikimedia projects is explicitly
| permitted. Local "fair use" or "fair dealing" laws (e.g. for academic or
| critical purposes) may also apply in your jurisdiction.
|
| I'll be careful about that.
| In particular, not all logos are trademarked by the Foundation. Maybe a
| twist could be made to the text to make a reference to trademarks,
| whilst not claiming all are tms ?
|
| ---------
|
| I otherwise moved text around in what seemed to me more clear. I hope it
| is fine. Please change it back or discuss it if you do not agree.
|
| Ant
|
| PS: ey, good job David. I guess we are very near having a good page, to
| be translated, for content reuse.
|
|
|
| David Gerard wrote:
|
| >
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Reusing_content_outside_Wikimedia
| >
| >I've tweaked this and filled it out a bit. It's hard writing about
| >legal issues in very simple grammar; I'd like juriwiki-l in particular
| >to look over this and check that I haven't oversimplified,
| >particularly in the "how to comply with this licence" sections.
| >
| >The only section that hasn't been written yet is content under
| >GPL/LGPL - anyone think they can write two simple sentences on how to
| >comply with this licence?
| >
| >It should probably also be merged with the similar page on meta.
| >
| >
| >- d.
| >_______________________________________________
| >Juriwiki-l mailing list
| >Juriwiki-l at wikimedia.org
| >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/juriwiki-l
| >
| >This email and its attachments are strictly intended for use and viewing
by the sole addressee(s) on the juriwiki-l mailing-list.
| >
| >
| >They cannot be published outside of this list without the prior
authorization of their author(s).
| >
| >They may contain legally privileged and/or confidential or proprietary
information.  If you are not the intended recipient of this email, or this
email has been sent to you through inadvertence, mistake or negligence, or
you have otherwise received this email without the knowledge, authority and
consent of the sender, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
forwarding, distribution or copying of this email, and/or any attachments is
strictly prohibited.  If you believe you have received this email in error,
please immediately notify the juriwiki-l mailing list by writing to
juriwiki-l at wikimedia.org and permanently delete the original email and any
attachments and discard any copies or printouts of this email and any
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| >
| >
| >
|
| _______________________________________________
| Juriwiki-l mailing list
| Juriwiki-l at wikimedia.org
| http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/juriwiki-l
|
| This email and its attachments are strictly intended for use and viewing
by the sole addressee(s) on the juriwiki-l mailing-list.
|
|
| They cannot be published outside of this list without the prior
authorization of their author(s).
|
| They may contain legally privileged and/or confidential or proprietary
information.  If you are not the intended recipient of this email, or this
email has been sent to you through inadvertence, mistake or negligence, or
you have otherwise received this email without the knowledge, authority and
consent of the sender, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
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from_name: George Herbert

subject: [WikiEN-l] SOS -- Save Our Sources

body:
On 12/3/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> The same mechanism should apply for web pages, where we can copy the
> relevant bits of a webpage and store them somewhere in case the
> website is no longer available. Archive.org is only a partial solution
> to that - and what if archive.org itself disappears?

One could just as easily wonder if wikipedia.org might one day dissapear.

A friend of mine works for the Internet Archive.  They believe they're
stable and mostly technically/talent limited on growth.

If there's significant concern on these points, then the Wikimedia
Foundation could form an exchange agreement with the IA, trading
copies of the respective databases, for redundancy.

Or send some of the $1 billion everyone keeps talking about thataway ;-)

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert at gmail.com


from_name: Steve Summit

subject: [WikiEN-l] overzealous image deletion?

body:
Justinc wrote:
> It has always been agreed that we dont accept fair use images
> when we can have free ones.

Sure.  But there's a difference between deleting the fair-use
image once the free replacement is found, versus preemptively
deleting it before the replacement is found.