subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
On 20/08/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> Andrew Gray stated for the record:
>
> > So you VfD WP:NPOV. Wow. Big deal. If it got deleted, all that it'd
> > mean would be that we didn't have a page defining the NPOV policy (so
> > someone would have to write it again). It wouldn't magically cause
> > that policy to cease being a fundamental part of the project...
>
> We hold these Truths to be self-evident: that Wikipedia is endowed by
> its creator with certain inalienable principles; that among these
> principles is the Neutral Point of View....

I was actually thinking more in terms of a common-law system, but
close enough...

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
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Dan Grey wrote:

> VfD can't touch policy, including proposed policy.

Completely agree. IIRC, this use to, indeed, be codified, but the VfD
weenies have had it removed in one of their endless redraftings, or
something.

Yours,
- --
James D. Forrester
Wikimedia : [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]
E-Mail    : james at jdforrester.org
IM (MSN)  : jamesdforrester at hotmail.com
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from_name: Chris Jenkinson

subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

James D. Forrester wrote:
> Dan Grey wrote:
>
>
>>>VfD can't touch policy, including proposed policy.
>
>
> Completely agree. IIRC, this use to, indeed, be codified, but the VfD
> weenies have had it removed in one of their endless redraftings, or
> something.

I agree too, and I've readded a notice to this effect to the
[[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion]] page.

Chris

- --
Chris Jenkinson
chris at starglade.org
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from_name: Mark Ryan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page title change

body:
On 8/20/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As far as I can tell, it never had it. However I've just put it in.
>
>
> Dan

No, it definitely had it all along. For example, see the cached Google
results at the following URL:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-17,GGLD:en&q=+site:en.wikipedia.org+wikipedia

(that URL might be cut by line breaks)

I tried to have a look on the MediaWiki pages for the correct system
message containing this option but couldn't find it.

~Mark Ryan


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page title change

body:
I have restored the page title to its previous state. Dan was correct
in that the page title mediawiki page appears to never have been
edited. The only explanation for this change in the last couple of
days is that someone changed the site name value, or something like
that.

~Mark Ryan


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

references:
<BAY23-F11BCB1CD501EDCCE03D62AE9B40@phx.gbl>
	<cfe1dfe105082006242f7d4266@mail.gmail.com>
	<f3fedb0d050820075528fe38e2@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 20/08/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> More to the point - the policy does not exist "because there is a page
> on it". Wikipedia is not, as I believe a guideline says somewhere, a
> game of nomic; the existence of hard-and-fast policy is integral to
> the system, not just something we happened to write.

Policies are also descriptive, not prescriptive.

I'm sure that, in the early days, there were some "decrees from on
high" from the likes Wales and a couple of others.

Ever since though policy has been more about a record of what happens,
rather than an attempt to change it.

The "how to create policy" page makes a telling point - in the last
two years, only about 5 out of 70 attempts to 'create policy'
succeeded.

Dan


from_name: Zachary Harden

subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
Call me biased, but I think that if a personal wants to delete a page in the
WP: name space, they should in very limited circumstances. I know that user
pages are not deleted unless they are using it as a personal website or
promoting illegal activities.

If this was over the VFD mess I started, I mainly wanted to ask for the
deletion of the page since when I first read the page, it was not trying to
ask for a change in policy: they were going to do their own thing and
circumvent policy. While I know the VFD will be closed under no-decision,
with many people focusing on the project after the VFD, the project itself
will fail under it's own accord.

Regards,

Zachary Harden

>From: Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk,English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:
>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:39:32 +0100
>
>On 20/08/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > More to the point - the policy does not exist "because there is a page
> > on it". Wikipedia is not, as I believe a guideline says somewhere, a
> > game of nomic; the existence of hard-and-fast policy is integral to
> > the system, not just something we happened to write.
>
>Policies are also descriptive, not prescriptive.
>
>I'm sure that, in the early days, there were some "decrees from on
>high" from the likes Wales and a couple of others.
>
>Ever since though policy has been more about a record of what happens,
>rather than an attempt to change it.
>
>The "how to create policy" page makes a telling point - in the last
>two years, only about 5 out of 70 attempts to 'create policy'
>succeeded.
>
>
>Dan


from_name: Phroziac

subject: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War

body:
This has to stop. There is now a Wikipedians against censorship
wikiproject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikipedians_against_censorship
. How is any of this going to get us anywhere? Isn't [[WP:NOT]]
censored already? Do we really need wikiprojects to oppose the basic
foundation of the project, and vfds, and vfds of vfds, and opposing
wikiprojects against them?

It looks like this is all a big ForestFire that needs to be stopped
immediately. VFD should never touch Wikipedia: namespace, VFDs should
never be VFD'd, WikiProjects should never be created to wage war with
other WikiProjects. What do we do now? :(
--
signature


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Pictures that are under a not compliant license -
 Immagini che non corrispondono ad una licenza accettata

body:
1. message in EN
2. message in IT

Hi, I had a discussion about pictures and now I am in search of a very
specific e-mail where I read the answer. I cannot remember if this was
on the English or the Italian wikipedia-list. I already searched all the
messages I have here, but no way ... I cannot find it.

The question then was that on a certain wikipedia there were pictures
uploaded where the license was not "free" (gfdl or cc) - someone
answered that there was no space for pictures that  were not under a
proper license, since they are not really free and therefore not useable
for wikipedia (since this content including pictures can be downloaded
and used anywhere else). I also remember that these pictures than had to
be deleted.

I am not sure on which wikipedia and how the complete discussion was -
does anyone remember?

Thank you !

*****

Ho avuto una discussione su immagini e ora sto cercando una risposta
specifica dove si trova la risposta. Non riesco a ricordare se allora si
trattava della lista inglese o italiana di wikipedia. Ho gi? cercato in
tutti i messaggi che ho qui, ma non riesco a trovare un bel nulla :-(

La questione allora era che su di una determinata wikipedia c'erano
delle immagini che non erano sotto una licenza "libera" (gfdl o cc) -
qualcuno ha risposto che non c'era spazio per immagini che non erano
sotto una licenza adatta perch? non sono veramente liberi e quindi non
sono utilizzabili per wikipedia (perch? i contenuti inclusi gli immagini
possono essere scaricati ed utilizzati da qualche altra parte). Ricordo
anche che queste immagini poi dovevano essere candellate.

Non sono sicura su quale wikipedia e come era tutta la discussione -
qualcuno si ricorda?

Grazie!

Ciao, Sabine

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/20/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:

> Indeed, Wikipedia is GFDL so anyone can do whatever with it so long as
> they continue to license it under the GFDL and provide a list of authors.
>
> "Stormfront Wikipedia" is unnacceptable on the simple grounds of
> trademark infringement. "Stormfrontpedia" would be acceptable.
> "Nazipedia" might get them into trouble in whatever juridstiction their
> servers are located in :)

I can't say that I feel entirely comfortable with suggesting snappy
names for these people to use. Hateopedia or Wikiphobia sounds about
right to me.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page title change

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Mark Ryan wrote:
> On 8/20/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>As far as I can tell, it never had it. However I've just put it in.
>>
>>
>>Dan
>
>
>
> No, it definitely had it all along. For example, see the cached Google
> results at the following URL:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-17,GGLD:en&q=+site:en.wikipedia.org+wikipedia
>
> (that URL might be cut by line breaks)
>
> I tried to have a look on the MediaWiki pages for the correct system
> message containing this option but couldn't find it.
>
>

It's [[MediaWiki:Pagetitle]].

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV

body:
On 8/20/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have recently become aware of a matter on the very cutting edge of
> NPOV, wiki-cliques, and the method by which article content is
> ''actually'' determined. I think the matter is very stimulating, and I
> hope that it will inspire some healthy discussion and thought. I'll
> give some links:

Forums  of various types try thid from time to time. It doesn't appear to work
--
geni


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page title change

body:
On 20/08/05, SPUI <drspui at gmail.com> wrote:

> > but as you can see from the history, it never had "the free
> > encyclopedia" in it. Very odd.

I note we seem to be back to "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"...

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Thanks! - was: Pictures that are under a not
 compliant license -
 Immagini che non corrispondono ad una licenza accettata

body:
A giant thank you to Andrea! You put me on the right way :-)
Below please find the message I was searching for.

Un gigantesco grazie ad Andrea! Mi hai messo sulla via giusta :-)
In basso il messaggio che stavo cercando.

Ciao, Sabine

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: GFDL Clarification
Date: 	Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:23:02 +0200
From: 	Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
Reply-To: 	wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
To: 	wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
References: 	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0505271324140.4830 at mimosa.opentrend.net>
<d7ajq0$887$1 at sea.gmane.org> <d7kab6$s7r$1 at sea.gmane.org>

Phil Boswell wrote:
> Am I the only person stunned by the complete lack of logical progression
> here?
>
> A) The owners of the image agreed for it to be used on Wikipedia
> B) Therefore it can't be.

I think that's a perfectly logical progression, but it is missing a few
steps.

A) The owners of the image agreed for it to be used on Wikipedia, but
_only_ on Wikipedia."

B) Wikipedia is a _freely licensed_ encyclopedia, meaning that things on
Wikipedia may be used by lots and lots of people without them having to
ask permission

C) Therefore, even though something may be licensed to "Wikipedia only",
Wikipedia can not use it unless it is licensed under a free license.

--Jimbo

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikitech-l] Problem with Wikimedia IRC channels

body:
Hi,

Thanks Datrio for your answer.

Le Friday 19 August 2005 19:13, Dariusz Siedlecki a ?crit :
> 2005/8/19, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net>:
> > Can someone explain me why I got this when trying to join Wikimedia
> > IRCchannels ?
>
> I can't see anything on the ban list, which could be a ban for your
> hostmask. Could you try joining #wikipedia? There are no bans there.
>
> Also, what's your hostname? PM me when you'll connect to the server
> (my nick's Datrio).

I?was told that I was banned because I?use Tor.
However I?DO NOT use Tor to connect to IRC and Wikimedia channels and I?have a
registred nick.?Therefore I?really don't understand why I?am banned.

Thanks,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Site switched to MW 1.6 alpha

body:
This is a cross-post to wikipedia-l and wikitech-l.

I just switched the version of MediaWiki we're running on Wikimedia
websites to CVS HEAD. Currently it's labelled 1.6alpha, but development
is continuous.

What this means for users is that features will appear on the site as
soon as possible after they are written, instead of waiting for the next
major release of MediaWiki in up to 6 months' time.

There were very few user-visible changes associated with this switch,
the main difference will be development practices in the future. One
user-visible change you might notice is that if a page is deleted while
you're editing it, you'll get a kind of edit conflict.

What this means for developers is that we'll have to be more careful
what we put into HEAD. Test everything thoroughly, or put experimental
features into their own branch. You should backport bug fixes to the
stable branch (currently REL1_5), but it's no longer necessary to
backport features.

With a more stable CVS HEAD, we should be able to release major versions
of MediaWiki more often.

This development schedule was suggested by Brion and enthusiastically
seconded by me.

-- Tim Starling


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Banned from Wikimedia IRC channels

body:
Hi,

Since I idn't get any answer from wikitech-l and that is not a really a
technical issue,?I?post again here.

Yann

Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Problem with Wikimedia IRC channels
Date: Saturday 20 August 2005 19:50
From: Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net>
To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>

Hi,

Thanks Datrio for your answer.

Le Friday 19 August 2005 19:13, Dariusz Siedlecki a ?crit :
> 2005/8/19, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net>:
> > Can someone explain me why I got this when trying to join Wikimedia
> > IRCchannels ?
>
> I can't see anything on the ban list, which could be a ban for your
> hostmask. Could you try joining #wikipedia? There are no bans there.
>
> Also, what's your hostname? PM me when you'll connect to the server
> (my nick's Datrio).

I?was told that I was banned because I?use Tor.
However I?DO NOT use Tor to connect to IRC and Wikimedia channels and I?have
 a registred nick.?Therefore I?really don't understand why I?am banned.

Thanks,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Angela

body:
> > > Can someone explain me why I got this when trying to join Wikimedia
> > > IRCchannels ?
> >
> > I can't see anything on the ban list, which could be a ban for your
> > hostmask. Could you try joining #wikipedia? There are no bans there.
> >
> > Also, what's your hostname? PM me when you'll connect to the server
> > (my nick's Datrio).
>
> Iwas told that I was banned because Iuse Tor.
> However IDO NOT use Tor to connect to IRC and Wikimedia channels and Ihave
>  a registred nick.Therefore Ireally don't understand why Iam banned.

I've removed all the bans from #wikimedia for now. One of these must
have been affecting you:
*!*@ool-4571682f.dyn.optonline.net
*!*Thomas7@*.versanet.de
*!*@tor/*
*!NathanJY*@*
*!*@70.21.19.*
*!*@70.21.19.*
*!*@host217-44-38-240.range217-44.btcentralplus.com
%*!*@static-cb-68-115-217-136.spa.sc.charter.com
*!*@host217-44-38-240.range217-44.btcentralplus.com
%*!*@static-cb-68-115-217-136.spa.sc.charter.com

Angela.


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Spell checking in MediaWiki

body:
Kaixo!

On Fri, Aug 19, 2005 at 10:46:08PM -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:

> Certainly, ispell libraries are a much more appealing option because
> they support a huge list of languages, and it's not extremely
> difficult to add more.

I almost agree; only a remark: ispell is now obsolete, it has been
superseeded with aspell, which fully supports utf-8 and a lot more
languages (as long as the language uses only, or can be decomposed
into, up to 210 different elements; that is the case of korean,
even if encoding of korean uses several thousands precombined characters;
it can be decomposed in basic letters for the spell checking; a korean
aspell dictionnary has however yet to be written)

There are some on-line php interfaces that use aspell on the server
to spell check some text trough a web interface; so it could indeed
be added to the wikipedia, and it may be usefull; but for heavy traffic
wikipedias it may also be a serious performance problem if it is used
a lot...

There are dictionnaries for aspell for 76 different languages, and of
course more can be added; look at:
http://aspell.sourceforge.net/man-html/Supported.html

--

Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]


from_name: Christian Thiele

body:
Hello everyone,

I just wanted to add that Opera supports spell checking in input boxes by
using GNU Aspell. You just have to install Aspell plus the languages you
need (for Windows see http://aspell.net/win32/) and restart Opera.

But I have to add, that - in my opinion - aspell isn't a good spell
checking engine and the dictionaries are very incomplete.

Sincerely
Christian Thiele


body:
Hi,

Thanks a lot Angela.

Yann

Le Saturday 20 August 2005 21:05, Angela a ?crit :
> > > > Can someone explain me why I got this when trying to join Wikimedia
> > > > IRCchannels ?
> > >
> > > I can't see anything on the ban list, which could be a ban for your
> > > hostmask. Could you try joining #wikipedia? There are no bans there.
> > >
> > > Also, what's your hostname? PM me when you'll connect to the server
> > > (my nick's Datrio).
> >
> > Iwas told that I was banned because Iuse Tor.
> > However IDO NOT use Tor to connect to IRC and Wikimedia channels and
> > Ihave a registred nick.Therefore Ireally don't understand why Iam banned.
>
> I've removed all the bans from #wikimedia for now. One of these must
> have been affecting you:
> *!*@ool-4571682f.dyn.optonline.net
> *!*Thomas7@*.versanet.de
> *!*@tor/*
> *!NathanJY*@*
> *!*@70.21.19.*
> *!*@70.21.19.*
> *!*@host217-44-38-240.range217-44.btcentralplus.com
> %*!*@static-cb-68-115-217-136.spa.sc.charter.com
> *!*@host217-44-38-240.range217-44.btcentralplus.com
> %*!*@static-cb-68-115-217-136.spa.sc.charter.com
>
> Angela.

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Jochen Magnus

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Dumps newer than 20060623

body:
Thank you Brian,

I found the directory (but no link to it?), but I have some questions:

- As far as I saw, all articles in the XML dump are from namespace 0. Am
I right?

- Is there a documentation about the format? I don't know the exact
meaning of <revision> and I don't know, which <id> is the database id
(primary key): the  "page->id" or the "page->revision->id"?

- will XML dumps made recurrent (steady) in the future?

- and, please understand this question ironically, are there no other
users of dumps except me, because I'm the only one who nerves you about
this topic ;-)

Yours

jo

Brion Vibber wrote:
> There's a 20050713 dump in the new format (check the directories).
> Another dump will run this weekend.


from_name: David

subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
This is not true in practice; some unused Wikiprojects were recently
VfD'd with little fuss.  In fact, half of them had too few votes to even
count as consensus.

-Humblefool


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>From: <andyl2004 at sympatico.ca>
>Join Date: Aug 2005
>Posts: 6 Frank Sinatra is on a distinguished road
>Location:
>Default Re: Zionist Cabal taking over Wikipedia
>Wikipedia Intelligence Report #001
>
>The following is an incomplete list of those suspected to be members of, or
>to be the "useful
>idiots" of, the so-called "Elders of Wikipedia" (the Zionist cabal which
>has Wikipedia in its grip).
>Those at the top of the list are definite members and are the most ruthless
>and vicious of the
>bunch; those at the bottom I'm less sure about. Monitor the activities of
>the first 5 on the list
>(watch their user contribution pages and their user talk pages) and you'll
>have a good idea of
>what the entire gang is up to.
>
>The suspected "Elders of Wikipedia" are:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jayjg

Wow, it turns out I'm in charge of Wikipedia. Excellent, the world
domination plan is proceeding as planned...

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Hmm, here's the plan Amalekite is proposing:

"I think that if there were enough white nationalists there (or at least
more people who are Jew-wise, even if they are not white or tend to lean
more to the libertarian left), the Zionist cabal would have a tough time
keeping control. The Wikipedia system itself is pretty open and neutral -
it's just that the place is infested with Jews. There's not even that many
Jews there that I'd consider to be among the "Elders of Wikipedia" - maybe
just 20 to 30 in all. That's why I think it's such a shame to let the
bastards rule it. The kikes there are undoubtedly smart, but I think more
importantly, they're well-organized, persistant, and know how the system
works. If 20 or 30 of us could form a loose network on Wikipedia and
basically follow in the Jews' example (i.e. synchronize our votes on
important issues, support each others' edits, elect each other to
administrator positions, contest the neutrality of the Jews' favorite
articles, etc.), we could make life very difficult for them. If 60 of us
were on there, we could probably seize control from them for good."

Not the first time they've thought of doing this.  I wonder if they'll
follow through this time.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War

body:
On 20/08/05, Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com> wrote:
> This has to stop. There is now a Wikipedians against censorship
> wikiproject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikipedians_against_censorship

There's also [[Wikipedia:Wikiproject Graphical content problem]]...

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War

body:
On 8/20/05, Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com> wrote:
> This has to stop. There is now a Wikipedians against censorship
> wikiproject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikipedians_against_censorship
> . How is any of this going to get us anywhere? Isn't [[WP:NOT]]
> censored already? Do we really need wikiprojects to oppose the basic
> foundation of the project, and vfds, and vfds of vfds, and opposing
> wikiprojects against them?
>
> It looks like this is all a big ForestFire that needs to be stopped
> immediately. VFD should never touch Wikipedia: namespace, VFDs should
> never be VFD'd, WikiProjects should never be created to wage war with
> other WikiProjects. What do we do now? :(
> --

Ignore them and they will go a away. There is little fuel for this
fire. A tiny a number of images and that is it.

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Over-eager new admins

body:
> > On 8/19/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >From: Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > >I also think the bureaucrats might want to be a bit less eager to
> > > >promote, on highly disputed nominations.
> > >
> > > Can you provide examples of where bureaucrats have been "eager to
>promote"
> > > on "highly disputed nominations"?
> > >
> > > Jay.
>From: Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com>
>
>lots, but i don't think that would be helpful.
>
>Jack (Sam Spade)

I see.  Well, then, I will have to remain highly skeptical of that claim.

Jay.


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject:
[WikiEN-l] An admin misused his privilages to block me and
	vandalize an article.

body:
You should see [[Wikipedia:Consensus]]. You seem to be thinking of
unanimity. I can't speak to the rest of it.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 8/20/05, Dai Grepher <dai_grepher1051 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>  My user name is Dai Grepher, my I.P address is 68.41.169.128, I am sending this message because the administrator Andrevan has misused his abilities to block me from editing any page but my own for 24 hours. While I know that this is a temporary block, I still believe that Andrevan should be reprimanded for misuse of administrating privileges, and I believe that he will continue to misuse his powers unless he is reprimanded. The message I receive when trying to edit is as follows:
>
>  "User is blocked
> >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> You have attempted to edit a page, either by clicking the "edit this page" tab or by following a red link.
>
> Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Andrevan.
>
> The reason given is this:
> Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Dai Grepher". The reason given for Dai Grepher's block is: "Ignoring consensus, vandalizing user pages. Blocked for 24 hours, as warned."."
>
>  On the talk page found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Metroid:_Zero_Mission
> I have respectfully stated that a consensus on the issue is not applicable to the article, since I have provided a substantial amount of evidence that disproves the popular theory and those that have voted have clearly ignored the facts that I have presented. Also, this consensus does not reach beyond the limits of Wikipedia to users holding a different belief and therefore does not represent the targeted fanbase. Under Wikipedia consensus policy, a consensus cannot be used to determine which side has "won" a dispute. It can only be used to see if there is a consensus, which there is not since I disagree with it and the opposition. Andrevan is using the consensus incorrectly as justification for changing the article to reflect his own opinion and also for blocking my account.
>
>  I have suggested that the article remain ambiguous, and not bias toward their side or my own while dispute resolution takes its course. The others debating the issue and myself have agreed to contact mediators and arbitrators to resolve the issue fairly. Andrevan makes it clear on the Zero Mission talk page listed above that he believes the popular theory and has stated orders to change the article to directly contradict me (Dai Grepher, found under the: The article should not be ambiguous, section of the article), which shows a direct prejudice against my theory and a complete disregard of the facts that I have presented that at the very least seriously question the popular theory.
>
>  I have edited the article to be non-partisan and I have also made additions to the page, which by Wikipedia policy is not classified as a revert. Andrevan is the one who has reverted and vandalized the page by ignoring the NPOV policy. Also, Andrevan has not posted warnings of blocking my account on my talk page, as Wikipedia's policy for handling vandalism states. I however have posted these required steps on his talk page and also The Missing Link's talk page because they continue to change the article to be biased.
>
>  The second reason, an accusation that I have vandalized other user pages is untrue. Andrevan is misusing his powers to preserve his own personal belief, rather than protecting the page to be non-biased and allowing dispute resolution to take its course. By doing so, and blocking me, he is hindering the peaceful resolution of the dispute. I respectfully request that the administrator Andrevan be given the full reprimand that he deserves.
>
>  I urge you to please look into this matter at the talk page listed above, and handle the issue responsibly. Thank you very much.
>
> -Dai Grepher
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>  Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

body:
Have you tried contacting Andrevan about this first? The blocking
should always be the first person to go to if you're blocked.

--Mgm

8/20/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> You should see [[Wikipedia:Consensus]]. You seem to be thinking of
> unanimity. I can't speak to the rest of it.
>
> Jack (Sam Spade)
>
> On 8/20/05, Dai Grepher <dai_grepher1051 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >  My user name is Dai Grepher, my I.P address is 68.41.169.128, I am sending this message because the administrator Andrevan has misused his abilities to block me from editing any page but my own for 24 hours. While I know that this is a temporary block, I still believe that Andrevan should be reprimanded for misuse of administrating privileges, and I believe that he will continue to misuse his powers unless he is reprimanded. The message I receive when trying to edit is as follows:
> >
> >  "User is blocked
> > >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> > You have attempted to edit a page, either by clicking the "edit this page" tab or by following a red link.
> >
> > Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Andrevan.
> >
> > The reason given is this:
> > Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Dai Grepher". The reason given for Dai Grepher's block is: "Ignoring consensus, vandalizing user pages. Blocked for 24 hours, as warned."."
> >
> >  On the talk page found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Metroid:_Zero_Mission
> > I have respectfully stated that a consensus on the issue is not applicable to the article, since I have provided a substantial amount of evidence that disproves the popular theory and those that have voted have clearly ignored the facts that I have presented. Also, this consensus does not reach beyond the limits of Wikipedia to users holding a different belief and therefore does not represent the targeted fanbase. Under Wikipedia consensus policy, a consensus cannot be used to determine which side has "won" a dispute. It can only be used to see if there is a consensus, which there is not since I disagree with it and the opposition. Andrevan is using the consensus incorrectly as justification for changing the article to reflect his own opinion and also for blocking my account.
> >
> >  I have suggested that the article remain ambiguous, and not bias toward their side or my own while dispute resolution takes its course. The others debating the issue and myself have agreed to contact mediators and arbitrators to resolve the issue fairly. Andrevan makes it clear on the Zero Mission talk page listed above that he believes the popular theory and has stated orders to change the article to directly contradict me (Dai Grepher, found under the: The article should not be ambiguous, section of the article), which shows a direct prejudice against my theory and a complete disregard of the facts that I have presented that at the very least seriously question the popular theory.
> >
> >  I have edited the article to be non-partisan and I have also made additions to the page, which by Wikipedia policy is not classified as a revert. Andrevan is the one who has reverted and vandalized the page by ignoring the NPOV policy. Also, Andrevan has not posted warnings of blocking my account on my talk page, as Wikipedia's policy for handling vandalism states. I however have posted these required steps on his talk page and also The Missing Link's talk page because they continue to change the article to be biased.
> >
> >  The second reason, an accusation that I have vandalized other user pages is untrue. Andrevan is misusing his powers to preserve his own personal belief, rather than protecting the page to be non-biased and allowing dispute resolution to take its course. By doing so, and blocking me, he is hindering the peaceful resolution of the dispute. I respectfully request that the administrator Andrevan be given the full reprimand that he deserves.
> >
> >  I urge you to please look into this matter at the talk page listed above, and handle the issue responsibly. Thank you very much.
> >
> > -Dai Grepher
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >  Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
Could you believe that I never even noticed the blue backgrounds until
i was looking at MediaWiki:Monobook.css a while back? heh!

On 8/20/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Sam Korn wrote:
> > Wikipedia is not black and white (except in the Classic skin).
>
> And now it's blue and white in the Monobook skin! The Smurfs have invaded!
>
> - --
> Alphax                      |   /"\
> Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
> OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
> http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFDB/UH/RxM5Ph0xhMRAxy+AJ93EkI2E29H9IIOovYgcYvkuT0R8wCeKlBF
> 5W3o8r95p9TnTBhR2ngLgzo=
> =DlEf
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wiktionary-l] the sound functionality is broken

body:
Hoi,

I tested a recording and found that they no longer work.. Please vote
for http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3210
<http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3210> this is the one
that will fis the functionality that allows you to hear a spoken
pronunciation.

Thanks,
   GerardM


from_name: Phroziac

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page title change

body:
I agree with not changing it without consensus, though I can honestly
say i never even noticed it.

On 8/20/05, Mark Ryan <ultrablue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I changed it back to "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". If we're
> going to change the page title away from what it's been for as long as
> I can remember, we should ask the community. Don't take this as an
> opposition to the change; I couldn't care less, really.
>
> ~Mark Ryan
>
> On 8/21/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 20/08/05, SPUI <drspui at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > but as you can see from the history, it never had "the free
> > > > encyclopedia" in it. Very odd.
> >
> > I note we seem to be back to "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"...
> >
> > --
> > - Andrew Gray
> >  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Essjay -Wikipedia-

subject: [WikiEN-l] An admin misused his privilages to block me...

body:
This raises a related point: why does the autoblocker use the name of the
admin that placed the original block? I realize there is a benefit to having
a specific person to request an unblock from, but I also see a lot of abuse
of this.

Anyone familiar with the constant AOL blocks of WBardwin will recognzie what
happens: Rather than "Admin X, you blocked someone and I was autoblocked by
mistake" the statement is always "Admin X, you blocked me. You should be
more careful about autoblocking AOL IP's. You admins are always placing
autoblocks against me and I can't get any work done." as if the blocking
admin has any control over the autoblocker!

We can't see the IP of the person we are blocking, in order to know if it is
an AOL IP, and we can't see the IP of anyone who is autoblocked (it is
masked on the block list). Autoblocks don't show up in our blocklog, so the
only recourse we have is to either not block anyone for any reason, or once
we place a block, spend the rest of our lives refreshing the blocklist every
thirty seconds in order to immediately unblock everyone who is ever
autoblocked.

Can something be done to either 1) remove the admin's name from autoblocks,
and/or 2) make autoblocked IPs visible both in the block list and the admins
block log so that we can watch for AOL IP's? (Both would be the best
solution.) As it is, all we can do is sit back and wait to be attacked for
things that are completely out of our control.

Essjay

>Mgm wrote:

>Have you tried contacting Andrevan about this first? The blocking
>should always be the first person to go to if you're blocked.

>--Mgm

8/20/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>You should see [[Wikipedia:Consensus]]. You seem to be thinking of
>unanimity. I can't speak to the rest of it.
>
>Jack (Sam Spade)
>
>On 8/20/05, Dai Grepher <dai_grepher1051 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >  My user name is Dai Grepher, my I.P address is 68.41.169.128, I am
>sending
this message because the administrator Andrevan has misused his abilities to
block me from editing any page but my own for 24 hours. While I know that
this
is a temporary block, I still believe that Andrevan should be reprimanded
for
misuse of administrating privileges, and I believe that he will continue to
misuse his powers unless he is reprimanded. The message I receive when
trying to
edit is as follows:
> >
> >  "User is blocked
> > >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> > You have attempted to edit a page, either by clicking the "edit this
>page"
tab or by following a red link.
> >
> > Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Andrevan.
> >
> > The reason given is this:
> > Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Dai
>Grepher".
The reason given for Dai Grepher's block is: "Ignoring consensus,
vandalizing
user pages. Blocked for 24 hours, as warned."."
> >
> >  On the talk page found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Metroid:_Zero_Mission
> > I have respectfully stated that a consensus on the issue is not
>applicable
to the article, since I have provided a substantial amount of evidence that
disproves the popular theory and those that have voted have clearly ignored
the
facts that I have presented. Also, this consensus does not reach beyond the
limits of Wikipedia to users holding a different belief and therefore does
not
represent the targeted fanbase. Under Wikipedia consensus policy, a
consensus
cannot be used to determine which side has "won" a dispute. It can only be
used
to see if there is a consensus, which there is not since I disagree with it
and
the opposition. Andrevan is using the consensus incorrectly as justification
for
changing the article to reflect his own opinion and also for blocking my
account.
> >
> >  I have suggested that the article remain ambiguous, and not bias toward
their side or my own while dispute resolution takes its course. The others
debating the issue and myself have agreed to contact mediators and
arbitrators
to resolve the issue fairly. Andrevan makes it clear on the Zero Mission
talk
page listed above that he believes the popular theory and has stated orders
to
change the article to directly contradict me (Dai Grepher, found under the:
The
article should not be ambiguous, section of the article), which shows a
direct
prejudice against my theory and a complete disregard of the facts that I
have
presented that at the very least seriously question the popular theory.
> >
> >  I have edited the article to be non-partisan and I have also made
>additions
to the page, which by Wikipedia policy is not classified as a revert.
Andrevan
is the one who has reverted and vandalized the page by ignoring the NPOV
policy.
Also, Andrevan has not posted warnings of blocking my account on my talk
page,
as Wikipedia's policy for handling vandalism states. I however have posted
these
required steps on his talk page and also The Missing Link's talk page
because
they continue to change the article to be biased.
> >
> >  The second reason, an accusation that I have vandalized other user
>pages is
untrue. Andrevan is misusing his powers to preserve his own personal belief,
rather than protecting the page to be non-biased and allowing dispute
resolution
to take its course. By doing so, and blocking me, he is hindering the
peaceful
resolution of the dispute. I respectfully request that the administrator
Andrevan be given the full reprimand that he deserves.
> >
> >  I urge you to please look into this matter at the talk page listed
>above,
and handle the issue responsibly. Thank you very much.
> >
> > -Dai Grepher
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >  Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
>From: David <humble.fool at gmail.com>
>
>This is not true in practice; some unused Wikiprojects were recently VfD'd
>with little fuss.  In fact, half of them had too few votes to even count as
>consensus.
>
>-Humblefool

Case in point: [[WikiProject Addressing Anti-Jewish Bias]], which user -Ril-
put on VfD because he claimed that it was POV to have a project addressing
anti-Jewish bias unless there was a similar project addressing "pro-Jewish
bias".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/WikiProject_Addressing_Anti-Jewish_Bias

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
[[Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/WikiProject_Wikipedians_for_Jimbo%27s_beard]]
You have GOT to be kidding me.

On 8/21/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >From: David <humble.fool at gmail.com>
> >
> >This is not true in practice; some unused Wikiprojects were recently VfD'd
> >with little fuss.  In fact, half of them had too few votes to even count as
> >consensus.
> >
> >-Humblefool
>
> Case in point: [[WikiProject Addressing Anti-Jewish Bias]], which user -Ril-
> put on VfD because he claimed that it was POV to have a project addressing
> anti-Jewish bias unless there was a similar project addressing "pro-Jewish
> bias".
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/WikiProject_Addressing_Anti-Jewish_Bias
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Nathan Reed

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/21/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >From: Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com>
> >
> >PS. How the hell do they know the religion of the wikipedians? I've
> >been here, what, little over a year now and I don't know any religion
> >of any wikipedian. We probably are being overrun by jews! And
> >presbytarians too probably, I hate those guys.
>
> Well, "Jew" isn't a religion, you know, it's a genetic defect. ;-)
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

This is how I can be a methodist and a jew? :-)


from_name: Zachary Harden

subject: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War

body:
>From: geni <geniice at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War
>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:48:43 +0100

>Ignore them and they will go a away. There is little fuel for this
>fire. A tiny a number of images and that is it.
>
>--
>geni

And three of the four images targeted by the WfD have been deleted by me
because they have been on IFD for a week, no source was provided and they
had no use in the Wiki.

Zach Harden


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>From: Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com>
>
>PS. How the hell do they know the religion of the wikipedians? I've
>been here, what, little over a year now and I don't know any religion
>of any wikipedian. We probably are being overrun by jews! And
>presbytarians too probably, I hate those guys.

Well, "Jew" isn't a religion, you know, it's a genetic defect. ;-)

Jay.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Site switched to MW 1.6 alpha

body:
Kov?cs Endre J?nos wrote:
> Hello,
>
> 1.6 alpha is causing major problems in the Hungarian Wikipedia.
> Something must have changed in the parsing of templates. We have used
> a "meta-template" to generate the content of Babel templates for some
> time; take a look at http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sablon:User_en to
> see what the templates look like now. (The English template should,
> of course, look like this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:User_en).
>
> All the best, Endre/KovacsUr at huwiki

This was fixed shortly after it was reported on IRC.

-- Tim Starling


references:
<dbf395c050818183064450f3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<de5gt7$vv$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<501f5b5d0508191446742b709c@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.svtmv2fhaavobm@smtp.apper.de>
	<849f98ed05082015311f6a64d0@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Kaixo!

On Sat, Aug 20, 2005 at 03:31:42PM -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
> My only problem with Aspell is that for some reason, I can't get
> non-Roman scripts to work under Win32... Other than that, I think it's
> quite amazing.

You need an aspell >= 0.60, and it seems nobody has compiled the new
aspell for Windows yet...
until 0.60 there was no utf-8 support; only one 8bit support;

--

Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
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from_name: Jtkiefer

body:
ugh, please don't quote the entire text of the entire section of the
thread in your reply unless absolutely necessary, it makes for an
extremely long email

-Jtkiefer


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/21/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hmm, here's the plan Amalekite is proposing:
>
> "I think that if there were enough white nationalists there (or at least
> more people who are Jew-wise, even if they are not white or tend to lean
> more to the libertarian left), the Zionist cabal would have a tough time
> keeping control. The Wikipedia system itself is pretty open and neutral -
> it's just that the place is infested with Jews. There's not even that many
> Jews there that I'd consider to be among the "Elders of Wikipedia" - maybe
> just 20 to 30 in all. That's why I think it's such a shame to let the
> bastards rule it. The kikes there are undoubtedly smart, but I think more
> importantly, they're well-organized, persistant, and know how the system
> works. If 20 or 30 of us could form a loose network on Wikipedia and
> basically follow in the Jews' example (i.e. synchronize our votes on
> important issues, support each others' edits, elect each other to
> administrator positions, contest the neutrality of the Jews' favorite
> articles, etc.), we could make life very difficult for them. If 60 of us
> were on there, we could probably seize control from them for good."
>
> Not the first time they've thought of doing this.  I wonder if they'll
> follow through this time.
>
> Jay.

Even if they do follow through, they crash and burn and most likely get banned.

"Ohh, that nice person who has been writing such brilliant prose on
[Enter Neo-nazi topic here] has been nominated for adminship. Oh, and
that excellent writer of "Why jews such ass" was the nominator! Ahh
and the person that voted Keep on "Why jews suck ass" is the only
supporter. Well, I hope the bureocrat sees this user for the wonderful
person that he is"

Assuming that they are smart enough to actually try to organize this
(they arn't) they will quickly find out that it wont work. They'll be
recongnized for the trolls that they are.

--gkhan

PS. How the hell do they know the religion of the wikipedians? I've
been here, what, little over a year now and I don't know any religion
of any wikipedian. We probably are being overrun by jews! And
presbytarians too probably, I hate those guys.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
*watches a forestfire start*

On 8/21/05, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/21/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > PS. How the hell do they know the religion of the wikipedians? I've
> > > been here, what, little over a year now and I don't know any religion
> > > of any wikipedian. We probably are being overrun by jews! And
> > > presbytarians too probably, I hate those guys.
> >
> > Hang around relgion pages and you will learn a few.
> >
> >
> > --
> > geni
>
> I imagine that that is painfully true.
>
> --gkhan
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


body:
Yes, I agree with that.

On 8/21/05, Essjay -Wikipedia- <essjay-wiki at hotmail.com> wrote:
> This raises a related point: why does the autoblocker use the name of the
> admin that placed the original block? I realize there is a benefit to having
> a specific person to request an unblock from, but I also see a lot of abuse
> of this.
>
> Anyone familiar with the constant AOL blocks of WBardwin will recognzie what
> happens: Rather than "Admin X, you blocked someone and I was autoblocked by
> mistake" the statement is always "Admin X, you blocked me. You should be
> more careful about autoblocking AOL IP's. You admins are always placing
> autoblocks against me and I can't get any work done." as if the blocking
> admin has any control over the autoblocker!
>
> We can't see the IP of the person we are blocking, in order to know if it is
> an AOL IP, and we can't see the IP of anyone who is autoblocked (it is
> masked on the block list). Autoblocks don't show up in our blocklog, so the
> only recourse we have is to either not block anyone for any reason, or once
> we place a block, spend the rest of our lives refreshing the blocklist every
> thirty seconds in order to immediately unblock everyone who is ever
> autoblocked.
>
> Can something be done to either 1) remove the admin's name from autoblocks,
> and/or 2) make autoblocked IPs visible both in the block list and the admins
> block log so that we can watch for AOL IP's? (Both would be the best
> solution.) As it is, all we can do is sit back and wait to be attacked for
> things that are completely out of our control.
>
> Essjay
>
> >Mgm wrote:
>
> >Have you tried contacting Andrevan about this first? The blocking
> >should always be the first person to go to if you're blocked.
>
> >--Mgm
>
> 8/20/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> >You should see [[Wikipedia:Consensus]]. You seem to be thinking of
> >unanimity. I can't speak to the rest of it.
> >
> >Jack (Sam Spade)
> >
> >On 8/20/05, Dai Grepher <dai_grepher1051 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >  My user name is Dai Grepher, my I.P address is 68.41.169.128, I am
> >sending
> this message because the administrator Andrevan has misused his abilities to
> block me from editing any page but my own for 24 hours. While I know that
> this
> is a temporary block, I still believe that Andrevan should be reprimanded
> for
> misuse of administrating privileges, and I believe that he will continue to
> misuse his powers unless he is reprimanded. The message I receive when
> trying to
> edit is as follows:
> > >
> > >  "User is blocked
> > > >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> > > You have attempted to edit a page, either by clicking the "edit this
> >page"
> tab or by following a red link.
> > >
> > > Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Andrevan.
> > >
> > > The reason given is this:
> > > Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Dai
> >Grepher".
> The reason given for Dai Grepher's block is: "Ignoring consensus,
> vandalizing
> user pages. Blocked for 24 hours, as warned."."
> > >
> > >  On the talk page found here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Metroid:_Zero_Mission
> > > I have respectfully stated that a consensus on the issue is not
> >applicable
> to the article, since I have provided a substantial amount of evidence that
> disproves the popular theory and those that have voted have clearly ignored
> the
> facts that I have presented. Also, this consensus does not reach beyond the
> limits of Wikipedia to users holding a different belief and therefore does
> not
> represent the targeted fanbase. Under Wikipedia consensus policy, a
> consensus
> cannot be used to determine which side has "won" a dispute. It can only be
> used
> to see if there is a consensus, which there is not since I disagree with it
> and
> the opposition. Andrevan is using the consensus incorrectly as justification
> for
> changing the article to reflect his own opinion and also for blocking my
> account.
> > >
> > >  I have suggested that the article remain ambiguous, and not bias toward
> their side or my own while dispute resolution takes its course. The others
> debating the issue and myself have agreed to contact mediators and
> arbitrators
> to resolve the issue fairly. Andrevan makes it clear on the Zero Mission
> talk
> page listed above that he believes the popular theory and has stated orders
> to
> change the article to directly contradict me (Dai Grepher, found under the:
> The
> article should not be ambiguous, section of the article), which shows a
> direct
> prejudice against my theory and a complete disregard of the facts that I
> have
> presented that at the very least seriously question the popular theory.
> > >
> > >  I have edited the article to be non-partisan and I have also made
> >additions
> to the page, which by Wikipedia policy is not classified as a revert.
> Andrevan
> is the one who has reverted and vandalized the page by ignoring the NPOV
> policy.
> Also, Andrevan has not posted warnings of blocking my account on my talk
> page,
> as Wikipedia's policy for handling vandalism states. I however have posted
> these
> required steps on his talk page and also The Missing Link's talk page
> because
> they continue to change the article to be biased.
> > >
> > >  The second reason, an accusation that I have vandalized other user
> >pages is
> untrue. Andrevan is misusing his powers to preserve his own personal belief,
> rather than protecting the page to be non-biased and allowing dispute
> resolution
> to take its course. By doing so, and blocking me, he is hindering the
> peaceful
> resolution of the dispute. I respectfully request that the administrator
> Andrevan be given the full reprimand that he deserves.
> > >
> > >  I urge you to please look into this matter at the talk page listed
> >above,
> and handle the issue responsibly. Thank you very much.
> > >
> > > -Dai Grepher
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > >  Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >_______________________________________________
> >WikiEN-l mailing list
> >WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
On 20/08/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20/08/05, Essjay -Wikipedia- <essjay-wiki at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Stuff
>
> No, VfD can't touch policy, including proposed policy.

Heh, when I wrote that, I thought you were talking about true policies
and the like, not the sillier examples of Wikiprojects.

VfD is welcome to them...

Dan


subject: [Foundation-l] Improving navigation of WMF pages on meta

body:
Hi everyone

As part of attempting to improve the usability of the meta pages
related to the Foundation I made some quite major alterations to
[[m:Template:Wikimedia]]:

*Old version: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Wikimedia&oldid=195529

*New version: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Wikimedia&oldid=195516

The intention is very simple: Think like a newbie then design the
template around that. What do people want to know? Who the board is,
what the budget is, how the site runs, plus make it easier for any
journalists who pass by.

Second point: There's only links to the major sections in my design,
not to every last page (many of which have been abandoned). Do you see
Google or Yahoo or anyone else linking to every other page on their
sites on every single page? No, of course not, because it's a
nightmare to navigate. This is what my change reflects.

I'd like some comments. Can people put them on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Wikimedia please?

Dan


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Problem with Wikimedia IRC channels

body:
Yann Forget wrote:
> I was told that I was banned because I use Tor.
> However I DO NOT use Tor to connect to IRC and Wikimedia channels and I have a
> registred nick. Therefore I really don't understand why I am banned.

Perhaps your machine was mis-identified as a Tor exit node. In any case
it's very difficult to find out what happened when you're posting to a
mailing list instead of talking to someone on IRC. If it happens again,
please private-message someone.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Improving navigation of WMF pages on meta

body:
On 21/08/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone...

Just a quick rider: if the current template "works", why do people
complain that information is hard to find?

Remember: simpler is better. People grasp and understand simple things
easily; complexity confuses, and obscures what is important.

Dan


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>
> PS. How the hell do they know the religion of the wikipedians? I've
> been here, what, little over a year now and I don't know any religion
> of any wikipedian. We probably are being overrun by jews! And
> presbytarians too probably, I hate those guys.

Hang around relgion pages and you will learn a few.

--
geni


body:
> Can something be done to either 1) remove the admin's name from autoblocks,
> and/or 2) make autoblocked IPs visible both in the block list and the admins
> block log so that we can watch for AOL IP's? (Both would be the best
> solution.) As it is, all we can do is sit back and wait to be attacked for
> things that are completely out of our control.
>
> Essjay

1 no. Some need to be contacted. it might as well be the blocking admin
2 no. It makes it too easy to find people's IPs
--
geni


from_name: Mark Ryan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page title change

body:
I changed it back to "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". If we're
going to change the page title away from what it's been for as long as
I can remember, we should ask the community. Don't take this as an
opposition to the change; I couldn't care less, really.

~Mark Ryan

On 8/21/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20/08/05, SPUI <drspui at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > but as you can see from the history, it never had "the free
> > > encyclopedia" in it. Very odd.
>
> I note we seem to be back to "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"...
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: steve v

subject: [WikiEN-l] Whateverpedia

body:
> Nazibook skin... white text on white background

ROFL.

> Not the first time they've thought of doing this.

The Nazipedia idea has been around for a couple of
years now, IIRC.

> Assuming that they are smart enough to actually try
> to organize this (they arn't) they will quickly find
> out that it wont work. They'll be recongnized for
the > trolls that they are.

Some of them will crash and burn. But referring to
people as smart or "not" or "trolls" doesnt do justice
to the social ethics we've developed over the years.
Positive handling will yield positive results. We've
seen plenty of different kinds of POV-pushers come
around before.

Regardless of what the original agenda, many
eventually shape up, gain in literacy, feed their
curiosity about the world, grow in knowledge of
subjects of interest, make themselves useful, develop
some general perspective, and gain freedom from those
in their orbit who dwell in vexation.

SV

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
--- David <humble.fool at gmail.com> wrote:

> some unused
> Wikiprojects were recently
> VfD'd with little fuss. In fact, half of them had
> too few votes to even
> count as consensus.

Ive changed my mind. Im now a card-carrying
deletionist.

SV

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary and improper article dating

body:
The Iraq War article has recently been formed to
consolodate the term under something a bit more
substantive than a disambiguation. There remains the
issue of unnecessary dating of events, where such
events are uniquely enough referenced and titled to
warrant more common terms. There are thousands of
cases where we use the common term instead of a more
official term, so why then is there a persistence in
using a unique standard using titles prefaced with a
date?

In many cases, the date doesnt actually offer any
disambiguation, and seems to be in the interest of
making the title more NPOV. In fact it makes
longer-running events to be segmented and devoid of
context. In the above topic, Ive repeatedly tried to
change the situation, only to be outright reverted by
known and respected pov-pushers. It would appear that
the climate has settled into some more conciliatory
acknowledgement of non-official concepts regarding the
war, and thus the recent move hasnt yet been reverted.

Small topics like the above may fall only to the
interest of a few, but the date in title policy issue
needs some fixing.

SV

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


body:
On 21/08/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Can something be done to either 1) remove the admin's name from autoblocks,
> > and/or 2) make autoblocked IPs visible both in the block list and the admins
> > block log so that we can watch for AOL IP's? (Both would be the best
> > solution.) As it is, all we can do is sit back and wait to be attacked for
> > things that are completely out of our control.
> >
> > Essjay

...but perhaps the autoblocker could be set not to block addresses in
the AOL range. Someone could file a bug on that if they think it's a
good idea.

Dan


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

JAY JG wrote:
> Hmm, here's the plan Amalekite is proposing:
>
> "I think that if there were enough white nationalists there (or at least
> more people who are Jew-wise, even if they are not white or tend to lean
> more to the libertarian left), the Zionist cabal would have a tough time
> keeping control. The Wikipedia system itself is pretty open and neutral
> - it's just that the place is infested with Jews. There's not even that
> many Jews there that I'd consider to be among the "Elders of Wikipedia"
> - maybe just 20 to 30 in all. That's why I think it's such a shame to
> let the bastards rule it. The kikes there are undoubtedly smart, but I
> think more importantly, they're well-organized, persistant, and know how
> the system works. If 20 or 30 of us could form a loose network on
> Wikipedia and basically follow in the Jews' example (i.e. synchronize
> our votes on important issues, support each others' edits, elect each
> other to administrator positions, contest the neutrality of the Jews'
> favorite articles, etc.), we could make life very difficult for them. If
> 60 of us were on there, we could probably seize control from them for
> good."
>
> Not the first time they've thought of doing this.  I wonder if they'll
> follow through this time.
>

Not that I could be bothered, but there's nothing to stop us doing
exactly the same back to them :)

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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+neI1rDiqBZ3QCHsOa2JnXU=
=SJWj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] VfD vs. Wikipedia:

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Sam Korn wrote:
> Wikipedia is not black and white (except in the Classic skin).

And now it's blue and white in the Monobook skin! The Smurfs have invaded!

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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5W3o8r95p9TnTBhR2ngLgzo=
=DlEf
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references:
<cfe1dfe1050821024861a15333@mail.gmail.com>
	<cfe1dfe105082102563381b2cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<de9n1p$hpa$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 21/08/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think the template for navigation is not really the problem. The
> problem is that the content of the pages is either non complete, or
> outdated, or just plain missing. I suggest we improve the content before
> any big modification of the template itself.

I disagree - in setting this up I read every page on meta related to
the Foundation. With the exception of the meta budget page (redundant
with the WMF wiki page - something that patently must not be edited),
everything people ever desire to know is on meta. It's just buried
under all the other (mostly abandoned) pages.

Think about what people want to know:

*Who runs the Foundation - the Board
*Where the money gets spent - the Budget
*Who does what - the Departments
*How does the place work (nerd pages) - the Servers
*Anything local to me? - the Chapters
*I'm a journalist - Press

Have I missed anything there?

Put it another way: visit, say, http://www.volvocars.co.uk/ . Do they
list links to the descriptions, prices, specs etc to every model from
their front page? Of course not. Yet we do.

Why?

Dan


from_name: Anthere

body:
Dan Grey wrote:

> On 21/08/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi everyone...
>
>
> Just a quick rider: if the current template "works", why do people
> complain that information is hard to find?
>
> Remember: simpler is better. People grasp and understand simple things
> easily; complexity confuses, and obscures what is important.
>
>
> Dan

I think the template for navigation is not really the problem. The
problem is that the content of the pages is either non complete, or
outdated, or just plain missing. I suggest we improve the content before
any big modification of the template itself.

Ant


subject: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Phroziac wrote:
> This has to stop. There is now a Wikipedians against censorship
> wikiproject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikipedians_against_censorship
> . How is any of this going to get us anywhere? Isn't [[WP:NOT]]
> censored already? Do we really need wikiprojects to oppose the basic
> foundation of the project, and vfds, and vfds of vfds, and opposing
> wikiprojects against them?
>
> It looks like this is all a big ForestFire that needs to be stopped
> immediately. VFD should never touch Wikipedia: namespace, VFDs should
> never be VFD'd, WikiProjects should never be created to wage war with
> other WikiProjects. What do we do now? :(

/me goes to create [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedians in favour of
locking the database every 24 hours to prevent edit wars and clean up
all the mess]]

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/21/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > PS. How the hell do they know the religion of the wikipedians? I've
> > been here, what, little over a year now and I don't know any religion
> > of any wikipedian. We probably are being overrun by jews! And
> > presbytarians too probably, I hate those guys.
>
> Hang around relgion pages and you will learn a few.
>
>
> --
> geni

I imagine that that is painfully true.

--gkhan


from_name: SJ

subject: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War

body:
On 8/20/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:

> /me goes to create [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedians in favour of
> locking the database every 24 hours to prevent edit wars and clean up
> all the mess]]

Perhaps we can recruite the 'five very powerful Japanese built
multilingual internet-crawling robots (Toshiba ML-2274) situated
around the world' that clean the internet once a year... I hear they
are looking for work.

SJ


from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

body:
Dan Grey wrote:

> I disagree - in setting this up I read every page on meta related to
> the Foundation. With the exception of the meta budget page (redundant
> with the WMF wiki page - something that patently must not be edited),
> everything people ever desire to know is on meta. It's just buried
> under all the other (mostly abandoned) pages.
>
> Think about what people want to know:
>
> *Who runs the Foundation - the Board
> *Where the money gets spent - the Budget
> *Who does what - the Departments
> *How does the place work (nerd pages) - the Servers
> *Anything local to me? - the Chapters
> *I'm a journalist - Press

As a journalist, you shouldn't be on Meta. Meta is the place for the
community, to work at wikimedia level. Not for public representation.
That's what http://wikimediafoundation.org is for.

greetings,
elian


from_name: Emerson José Silveira da Costa

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Interlingua Wikipedia logo

body:
Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:

>Emerson Jos? Silveira da Costa wrote:
>
>
>>> http://ia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine:Wiki.png
>>>
>>> Back then I thought that merely naming it "wiki.png" would make it
>>> appear on the pages, but it seems that it doesn't work.
>>>
>>> What is missing?
>>
>>
>You also have to ask a developer to change the configuration files,
>which I've now done. I also took the liberty of resaving the file with
>an image editor, reducing its size to 8KB -- don't ask me how you
>managed to make it 67KB.
>
>
Thanks a lot for both actions! :-) As for the file, I don't know how it
came to be so big. I'm no expert in image editing, anyway. ??-(

Ensjo.
http://www.ensjo.net


from_name: Philip Newton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:07:20 +1000, David Gerard wrote:

> I can imagine cases where, in a given field, one vendor's catalogue
> numbers might be useful to list.

Music (e.g. BWV) and Astronomy comes to mind, for example.

Though those are cases where what were originally one "vendor"'s numbers
have become a (de facto, at least) standard.

--Ph.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Klingon Wikipedia locked

body:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:59:31 -0400, Stephen Forrest wrote:

> For me, the obvious difference between the Klingon Wikipedia and other
> small wikipedias is that is both 1) very small and 2) a constructed
> language.

I think an important additional point is 3) it has an essentially closed
vocabulary (including derived forms).

This is something that e.g. Interlingue and Lojban, which Mark cited, do
not have (Lojban has a closed set of "root words" but an open set of
derived forms and borrowed words).

The closed vocabulary of Klingon (and, say, Sindarin) means that there
will inevitably be annoying gaps in vocabulary which require much
circumlocution to discuss many subjects, because new words "cannot" be
coined or borrowed, and combining existing words will be limited.

--Ph.


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Whateverpedia

body:
> Regardless of what the original agenda, many
> eventually shape up, gain in literacy, feed their
> curiosity about the world, grow in knowledge of
> subjects of interest, make themselves useful, develop
> some general perspective, and gain freedom from those
> in their orbit who dwell in vexation.

Very well put! It's important to think of people as individuals, even if
they are part of fascist or racist movements. We have paedophiles
contributing in good faith as was recently pointed out. I'm sure we also
have nazis contributing in good faith and there's no reason to worry about
that. (All homeopaths should be banned immediately, though.)

And if you read the conversations on the Stormfront message boards that
have been linked to you'll see that User:Amalekite, who presents a well
reasoned case and is obviously familiar with the workings of Wikipedia,
does not manage to gather any new users for us. Other members of that
board are content with "telling the truth about the Jews" on their own
site.

This is consistent with my own attempts of recruiting new contributors.
It's harder than one might think.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Pawe³ 'Ausir' Dembowski

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
> Please keep in mind that if a link is used as a reference for an
> article, especially if it is cited in the article text, it should
> never be removed, even if dead, until a suitable replacement reference
> is provided.

Can't we replace such links with links to web.archive.org then?

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org


from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Musings on "correct" spellings

body:
Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> The goal of wiktionary is all words in all languages ... I for myself
> will not exclude one word if it exists in a publication.

Hear, hear!

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


body:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
> Dan Grey wrote:
>
>> I disagree - in setting this up I read every page on meta related to
>> the Foundation. With the exception of the meta budget page (redundant
>> with the WMF wiki page - something that patently must not be edited),
>> everything people ever desire to know is on meta. It's just buried
>> under all the other (mostly abandoned) pages.
>>
>> Think about what people want to know:
>>
>> *Who runs the Foundation - the Board
>> *Where the money gets spent - the Budget
>> *Who does what - the Departments
>> *How does the place work (nerd pages) - the Servers
>> *Anything local to me? - the Chapters
>> *I'm a journalist - Press
>
>
> As a journalist, you shouldn't be on Meta. Meta is the place for the
> community, to work at wikimedia level. Not for public representation.
> That's what http://wikimediafoundation.org is for.
>
> greetings,
> elian

possibly, but community must also know how to join the press team or
where things should be handled. So a press page on meta can make sense,
WITH a huge mention on top telling journalists where to go.

This said, one of the pages I most often indicated to journalists on
meta, is the logo page, where they can download the high resolution logos.

Ant


body:
Dan Grey wrote:

> On 21/08/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I think the template for navigation is not really the problem. The
>>problem is that the content of the pages is either non complete, or
>>outdated, or just plain missing. I suggest we improve the content before
>>any big modification of the template itself.
>
>
> I disagree - in setting this up I read every page on meta related to
> the Foundation. With the exception of the meta budget page (redundant
> with the WMF wiki page - something that patently must not be edited),
> everything people ever desire to know is on meta. It's just buried
> under all the other (mostly abandoned) pages.
>
> Think about what people want to know:
>
> *Who runs the Foundation - the Board
> *Where the money gets spent - the Budget
> *Who does what - the Departments
> *How does the place work (nerd pages) - the Servers
> *Anything local to me? - the Chapters
> *I'm a journalist - Press
>
> Have I missed anything there?
>
> Put it another way: visit, say, http://www.volvocars.co.uk/ . Do they
> list links to the descriptions, prices, specs etc to every model from
> their front page? Of course not. Yet we do.
>
> Why?
>
>
> Dan

Not convinced, but if we must really shorten the list, I think a few
ones should absolutely be kept. Amongst those, I think that
* the meetings
* and the agenda

are two importants starts to know what is going on, and how editors can
interact with them. In your shorten list, there is no hint of how people
can talk with us.

Secondly, it is a bit bothering there is no more link to pages such as
* trademarks
* domain names
* logos

These are issues where people keep asking information. I see not from
which pages we could list them so that readers could all by themselves
find the information. If I need information on trademarks... should I go
to "the servers", or to "the board" ? Since the "budget" is now linking
to foundation, we can not put links there.

I think your shortened list may be interesting... but is a bit reducing.
By reading it, I feel like the ONLY things we are doing are
* gathering money (the budget)
* spending it on servers
* answering to the press

Errr, I think it goes a little bit further.

However, I agree some other links could be removed. Elections can be put
in board. Chapters could be limited to one general link to all chapters,
where we can also generally explain relationship, mailing list etc...


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Spammer trick - image uploads abused

body:
I agree with what you said about the German Wikipedia, however:

I sharply disagree with what you said about "all the smaller wikis
which are not constantly watched"... which Wikis are you talking
about? The Small Wikis Monitoring Team (SWMT) closely watches all
recent changes on all inactive / low activity Wikimedia wikis
(excluding inactive Wikinewses) -- Wikipedias, Wiktionaries,
Wikiquotes, Wikibookses... -- and this includes image uploads.

So far, there have been no such abuses of image uploads on any of
these wikis. There has been uploading of porn images (all of which
Angela or someone else has expressly deleted), and to strange images
(for example of a frog wearing a hat, for a spam page on the Gothic
Wikipedia), but these are relatively infrequent, especially compared
to linkspam (largely from China, Russia, Germany, and also
pharmaceutical and porn linkspam in English).

Besides, "small wikis" is a very imprecise term. What do you define as
"small"? Does it need more than 10.000 articles? More than 1.000? More
than 100? More than 10? More than 1? "Small" is a relative term. A
user of the Sicilian Wikipedia may not nessecarily think of theirs as
a small Wikipedia, with nearly 2.000 articles now, but they would
probably consider the Friulian Wikipedia to be small, with nearly 90
articles. German Wikipedians might consider the Chinese Wikipedia to
be small, with under 30.000 articles. It's a matter of perspective --
many English Wikipedians seem to think that the English Wikipedia is
THE Wikipedia, and that it is somehow entitled to better treatment or
that it is much more important or something, as one can see from some
of the complaints lodged by English Wikipedians against the transition
to the international portal, and the incessant whinging that followed
for a number of weeks. Yes, the English Wikipedia is the largest, but
it did certainly get a head-start because it was started earlier than
all other Wikipedias. The German Wikipedia, for example, is doing
quite well considering it was founded well after the English
Wikipedia.

Mark

On 21/08/05, Elisabeth Bauer <elian at djini.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In the last time we had several cases where spammers uploaded images on
> different wikipedias and used the pictures in html emails, trying to
> sell chairs, grammophones or whatever.
>
> Usually the uploads were the only contributions of said user, and the
> license was missing.
>
> It's maybe worth to consider disabling uploads on the projects which
> don't really need it but can use commons (such as the german wikipedia
> whose image upload policy is entirely compatible with commons and
> especially all the smaller wikis which are not constantly watched).
>
> Crosspost to wikitech and wikipedia-l, but please answer on foundation-l
> since this is a project wide policy issue.
>
> greetings,
> elian
> PS: I'll be away (on holiday) for the next three weeks, so don't expect
> an answer from me, only posting this to the list to make people aware of
> the issue.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

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QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Wytukaze

body:
Hello all,

What with the recent heated debate about nds: while I've been on a
(less-than-brilliant) trip to Ghana, I thought I'd talk ramblingly at
you fine members of the list for a while.

As we all know, English has a number of standards for spellings,
usually termed "British" and "American". What some might not know is
that these are not real standards at all; they are just conventions.
It's similar in many ways to those parts of the UK constitution termed
"conventions": Things are done that way because they always have been,
it's tradition - not because it has to be. Ui kan rui' luik dhis in
Inglish if ui won'. But that's just the point; I can't write like that
in English, and expect to be taken seriously or even to be understood
well, even though that's a reasonable go at representing my accent.
It's a symptom of an age-old problem for descriptivists. Even if
prescriptivist notions might stymy certain aspects of language, they
still exist, and are as valid a reason for language change as
borrowings or sound changes. They're certainly needed so that a
Geordie could talk to a Ga in writing; in speech, they have a damn
hard time understanding each other's English.

So, with that in mind, what about Plattd??tsch? There's a large number
of conventions, some only accepted by small amounts of people, and
there's even the complicating factor of bilingualism - Just what bits
of High German do you call borrowings? From what I can see, Sabine and
Gerard want to take the descriptivist route and describe all spelling
and pronunciation variants on a reasonably-equal footing, and for
that, they must be congratulated. It's quite a task to undertake.
However, Heiko, who, I take it, is a native speaker of the Sass
dialect, wants a bit of space to give students and enthusiasts
something to actually learn consistently. Now, let's not be too quick
to jump to it being one of those descriptivist-prescriptivist debates.
I seriously urge you to listen to Heiko here, he's got a point. Those
more common forms should be listed precisely as that, more common
forms - They shouldn't quite be on a level pegging, IMHO. Orthography
is a real problem, and it'll probably never be fully unified, as the
dialects diverge and merge more and the situation gets worse.

To put a bit of perspective on it, allow me to teach you something
about Ga orthography. The alphabet is your basic
Latin-influenced-by-IPA, like this:

a b d e ? f g h i j k l m n ? o ? p r s t u (v) w y (z)

The consonants I've stuck in brackets are because they're quite
uncommon, extant though they are.

The alphabet is phonetic, and there's not really much of a situation
with dialects. So, everyone spells everything the same way, right?
Well, almost. Take the digraph 'ts'. This is pronounced, consistently,
as English 'ch', German 'tsch', etc. But, its voiced companion is
'j'... Usually. You can also write it as 'dz' (as in the family name
'Obadzen') or even as 'dj'. So even here there's room for
orthographical preference. Still, that's not quite the end of it.

A tilde (~) placed over a letter indicates nasalisation. My stepfather
pronounces nearly all of his vowels this way, in actuality, though he
only writes the tilde where it is canonically present. But if you go
look at http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eny%C9%94 ("eny?", two) you will
notice there is an alternative form listed,
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eny%C9%94%CC%83 ("eny??"), and it is
precisely that.

By now you may be thinking "That's all well and good, but what the
hell are you talking about?!". My point is, we can't simplify nds:'s
problems to the extent we may like to. It has quite a unique position
and we have to represent _every_ aspect of the language, if we can.
That doesn't mean merely list every form we can find, it also means we
have to state which forms are preferred, most common, where and when.
Take "abschreim", supposedly Low Saxon, but presumably in High German
orthography, and even High German pronunciation. It's a slang term,
right? Slang is very often cross-language; you'll hardly ever hear a
Ga saying "buulu" (fool; very, very offensive), but "motherfucker"?
They've been exposed to it, and to the younger ones it seems cool to
use it, even while speaking Ga for the entire conversation. Do young
Low Saxon speakers use "abschreim" while speaking in their native
dialect? It's worth thinking about.

So, thanks for reading this far, and I hope some of what I said made
sense, and didn't offend anyone.

Wes gesund,

Wytukaze


subject: [WikiEN-l] Whateverpedia

body:
> You two have the moral highground on this one, I have to say.

Thank you, Jack, and I loved that story about the preacher. But it's
actually very easy to stand up on the moral hill and look stoically over
the battle - it's more difficult and more important to get down into the
trenches and try to get some NPOV work done.

In that spirit I tried making some changes to [[Eustace Mullins]]. Please
edit without mercy. I think I'm neutral here but it's the neutrality of
ignorance, I never heard about the man until today.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: JAY JG

body:
>From: Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com>
>
>On 21/08/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Can something be done to either 1) remove the admin's name from
>autoblocks,
> > > and/or 2) make autoblocked IPs visible both in the block list and the
>admins
> > > block log so that we can watch for AOL IP's? (Both would be the best
> > > solution.) As it is, all we can do is sit back and wait to be attacked
>for
> > > things that are completely out of our control.
> > >
> > > Essjay
>
>...but perhaps the autoblocker could be set not to block addresses in
>the AOL range. Someone could file a bug on that if they think it's a
>good idea.
>
>
>Dan

Given the amount of vandalism I see from AOL IPs, I sometimes wonder if
Wikipedia wouldn't be better off  banning the entire AOL range - it's
essentially a giant anonymous proxy.

Jay.


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Whateverpedia

body:
You two have the moral highground on this one, I have to say. Any
organised attempt to exclude or harass others based on their ideology,
opinions or demographic not only makes them angrier (and in the case
of racists reinforces their biases), but it also brings one right down
to their level.

I'll never forget some talk show I saw once, where they had a former
klansman and the black preacher who converted him with love and
acceptance. That preacher had the moral highground. Any wikipedian who
cares about the mission of wikipedia will accept these guys reading
and editing our articles. Why? Because the diversity of information
and people involved is '''bound''' to have a positive effect on them.
It is bound to make them better people, if only slightly. As I always
say, any progress is good progress.And thats why we are here, to help
others grow.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 8/21/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> > Regardless of what the original agenda, many
> > eventually shape up, gain in literacy, feed their
> > curiosity about the world, grow in knowledge of
> > subjects of interest, make themselves useful, develop
> > some general perspective, and gain freedom from those
> > in their orbit who dwell in vexation.
>
> Very well put! It's important to think of people as individuals, even if
> they are part of fascist or racist movements. We have paedophiles
> contributing in good faith as was recently pointed out. I'm sure we also
> have nazis contributing in good faith and there's no reason to worry about
> that. (All homeopaths should be banned immediately, though.)
>
> And if you read the conversations on the Stormfront message boards that
> have been linked to you'll see that User:Amalekite, who presents a well
> reasoned case and is obviously familiar with the workings of Wikipedia,
> does not manage to gather any new users for us. Other members of that
> board are content with "telling the truth about the Jews" on their own
> site.
>
> This is consistent with my own attempts of recruiting new contributors.
> It's harder than one might think.
>
> Regards,
> Haukur
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Over-eager new admins

body:
Fair deal.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 8/21/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 8/19/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >From: Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >I also think the bureaucrats might want to be a bit less eager to
> > > > >promote, on highly disputed nominations.
> > > >
> > > > Can you provide examples of where bureaucrats have been "eager to
> >promote"
> > > > on "highly disputed nominations"?
> > > >
> > > > Jay.
> >From: Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com>
> >
> >lots, but i don't think that would be helpful.
> >
> >Jack (Sam Spade)
>
> I see.  Well, then, I will have to remain highly skeptical of that claim.
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/21/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> JAY JG wrote:
> > Hmm, here's the plan Amalekite is proposing:
...
> > we could make life very difficult for them. If
> > 60 of us were on there, we could probably seize control from them for
> > good."
>
> Not that I could be bothered, but there's nothing to stop us doing
> exactly the same back to them :)
>

Now now, there's no need to be uncooperative just because you don't
share someone's POV. Being helpful is often a better solution.

In fact, I think I'll help them out by making them a skin - I'll call
it Nazibook, white text on a white background.

That should keep everyone happy.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Donation

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Ticket#2005082010002098] About fundraising

body:
Passing on a suggestion sent to the board. Has anyone heard of this or have
any opinion on whether it would be a useful addition to our fundraising page?

Angela.

> ---- Forwarded message ---
>
> >
> > Wikipedia is using Paypal for fundraising. May I
> > suggest that www.sozialbank.de has a very convenient
> > system for fundraising and probably would accept
> > Wikipedia foundation as a customer?
> > Sozialbank is a bank especially for non-profit
> > institutions and would be much better suited for
> > a convincing foundraise of a non-profit.
> >
> > At least for european customers they should be able
> > to offer a web interface where money transfer is
> > possible immediately.
>
---- End forwarded message ---


from_name: Phroziac

body:
Why is it ANY different? You get a free CD, you stick it in, you
insert the codes, you evade any ban you want. When you unsubscribe,
they send you even more free trials!

On 8/21/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >From: Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com>
> >
> >On 21/08/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Can something be done to either 1) remove the admin's name from
> >autoblocks,
> > > > and/or 2) make autoblocked IPs visible both in the block list and the
> >admins
> > > > block log so that we can watch for AOL IP's? (Both would be the best
> > > > solution.) As it is, all we can do is sit back and wait to be attacked
> >for
> > > > things that are completely out of our control.
> > > >
> > > > Essjay
> >
> >...but perhaps the autoblocker could be set not to block addresses in
> >the AOL range. Someone could file a bug on that if they think it's a
> >good idea.
> >
> >
> >Dan
>
> Given the amount of vandalism I see from AOL IPs, I sometimes wonder if
> Wikipedia wouldn't be better off  banning the entire AOL range - it's
> essentially a giant anonymous proxy.
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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