subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> Which clitoris incident are you referring to?  According to evidence I
> prepared for Arbcom for the Dr Zen case, there has been an inline
> photograph on Clitoris ever since Anthere replaced the linked image by an
> inline in May, 2004.

Sounds right the long running fight to keep it there is I suspect the
reason for arbcom involvement

> Could you give examples from the upload log?  Something demonstrating that
> there is a person or a number of persons uploading nude images in a way
> that suggests that people are actually "searching out nude pictures to put
> in the 'pedia?"

appearence of goatse was very close to autofetllo incerdent to close.

> I'd expect to see a pattern of certain people uploading
> more than one such picture and trying to sneak it into an article in an
> inappropriate way.  Do we in fact have good evidence of this?

No. I don't think anyone has uploaded more than one.

> You mention a "suspicious speed"?  What is your estimate for the rate at
> which nude photographs are being uploaded to Wikipedia?

Hard to say 1 every 1-2 mounths which since there is very little PD
stuff is fast. More significantly is the change in rate. For a long
time uploads were very slow with the only photos I am aware of being
either painting or the ones on the articles about the relivant areas
of the human body. Do you remeber how much trouble had finding a
picture with copyright for the clitoris article. It took ages. It
doesn't seem to be taking that long any more.

--
geni


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: dumps

body:
Domas Mituzas wrote:
>
> There's yet another issue, with 1.5 major database redesign will happen,
> which will force us to provide non-SQL dumps. We're even not sure if
> revision texts will be kept in MySQL in future.

I've heard this before, but I don't really get it. What is the problem
with storing article texts in the DB? It would seem that LiveJournal is
storing *way* more text in their DB than Wikipedia, so what is different
about Wikipedia that makes it infeasible to follow their example?

Timwi


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Non-spam domain found in spam list

body:
Hi,

one of my edits was blocked for being "spam" because it contained a URL
that was in the spam list. However,

* I didn't add that URL (it was already in the article under "External
   Links")
* The URL was legitimate and relevant to the article

Please can someone remove that domain from the spamlist? The domain in
question is http://www.niimm.spb.su/ and I had to remove it to have my
edit go through:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grigori_Perelman&diff=0&oldid=12254012

Thanks,
Timwi


list: foundation-l

from_name: notafish

subject: [Foundation-l] TheWorldForum.org adds Wikinews logo

body:
> > Something stating that _some_ content is from Wikinews would be more
> > appropriate. At the moment, the Wikinews logo appears more prominently
> > than the site's own logo, giving the impression that Wikinews has far
> > more influence over the site than it does.
> >
> > Angela.
>
> Indeed, i dont mind having the logo on there somewhere, but it has to
> be clearer that we are not a sponser, and that we are not affiliated
> with thier POV. Something more like "Wikinews - content porvider" or
> something.

We should indeed try and provide those sites with ready-made logos
such as (in bulk):
-a Wikipedia logo that says : an article from Wikipedia
-A Wikinews logo that says "Content provider"
-A wikimedia logo that says "Official partner"

etc.

Delphine


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia

body:
Great idea, and good job. The Jimbo spoken entry has some funny clicks and pops.

I've also added some guidelines to speak slower, at about 150 words
per minute (25% slower than conversational speech).

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On 4/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> Following the example of the German Wikipedia, I have tentatively
> created a page for a Spoken Wikipedia project on en:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia
>
> We might need some ideas and discussion to get this going, but of course
> the best way of getting it going is to start recording things. :-)
>
> Have fun,
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> I take that very seriously.  It's an extremely
> damaging accusation, and if
> Kevin has evidence to support it he should make it
> public.  If he doesn't
> well we'll know he's just hand-waving, indulging in
> attempt to denigrate
> those who have uploaded images involving nudity.

And by implication, those of us who oppose turning
Wikipedia into a Kiddiwiki.

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikitech-l] REDIRECT to anchor

body:
[[m:Help:Redirect#A redirect to an anchor]] states that:
----
An example of this:
 <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[definitions#G]]</nowiki>
This is not possible. You will still be redirected to
<nowiki>[[definitions]]</nowiki> but you will not be sent to the #G anchor.
This feature '''will not''' be implemented in the future, so such redirects
should not be used.
----
When was that last sentence added, and by whom, and on what authority?

There is minimal discussion on the talk page, which ends with one of the
participants declaring their intent to drop a Feature Request on
[[m:MediaWiki feature request and bug report discussion]], but nothing is
said about any decision to forbid this change.

Did I miss something?
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
--- Kevin Rector <krector at Compco.com> wrote:

> > Maybe you'd be more comfortable at something like
> > yahooligans.
>
> Ah Rick, that was such a clever and subtle insult.
> If I called you out
> for being a jerk you'll say something like, "well
> you don't want to see
> boobs and they don't have any at Yahooligans". So
> you can hint that
> perhaps I'm just being childish without actually
> saying it. That was
> very clever indeed.
>
> -Kevin

Well, gee, Kevin, when you try to equate everybody who
disagrees with you on this subject with pornographers,
how else am I supposed to interpret your age level and
the age level of your interests?  Showing one breast
is pornography?  Not a very mature outlook on the
world at large, on art, or on the history of
illustration, is it?

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
--- Tom Haws <hawstom at sprintmail.com> wrote:
>Some of you may
> be surprised, but most of you will sympathize with
> the idea that I find
> the mere subject line of the current thread to be
> embarrassing and
> discouraging to my participation.

So am I.  Embarrassed that any adult human being feels
that one bare breast is somehow nudity.

RickK

RickK

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
--- Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:

> Not to mention the fact that anyone who simply
> explains that, for
> whatever reason, he is made uncomfortable or
> inconvenienced by such
> pictures or discussions is personally attacked and
> ridiculed for being
> at best a childish person who should be spending his
> time at
> Yahooligans, probably an advocate of oppressive
> censorship, and at
> worst a psychotic.

I never said psychotic.  I never implied psychotic.
You are making a straw man argument.  However, I fail
to see how suggesting that people who want to
bowdlerize Wikipedia would be more comfortable at
yahooligans, is any more of a personal attack than the
suggestion that those of who don't feel that any real
encyclopedia should be censored are somehow
pornographers.

> Those personal attacks, especially those from
> privileged characters
> who are absolved from censure, have a strong
> chilling effect on the
> conversation.

And who would that be?

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 21, Issue 44

body:
SPUI wrote:
> Alphax wrote:
>
>> Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry about the subject lines...this mailing list really needs to be
>>> turned into a newsgroup.
>>>
>> Newsgroups are not accessable to those without news servers. Email is
>> available to anyone with Web access.
>>
> Not necessarily; it could be set up on a Wikipedia server to which
> anyone could connect.

Gmane is such a server, it's news.gmane.org. It's not part of USENET so
it's not included in the Google index. Anyone with access to NNTP (on
port 119) and a newsreader (Outlook Express, Thunderbird, etc.) can
access it.

I use Gmane, with my mailing list subscriptions set to "nomail" in my
mailman preferences.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Milos Rancic

subject: [Wikitech-l] Different alphabets for the same language

body:
> I didn't say that it wasn't needed for Serbian, just that I didn't
> knew if sr: users needed it (which is different of wanted; yes it would
> be a welcome feature, but it isn't absolutely needed, as anyone litterate
> in Serbian language can read cyrillic; the situation is different for
> other languages where different communities use different alphabets
> and may not be able to read the other).
>
> ...
>
> (btw, I wasn't aware that the proportion of latin alphabet users
> was so high; yes I knew that anyone could write it, and probably used
> it in thinks like sms or email, but thought than when it came to writting
> with a pen on a paper most people used cyrillic)

Thank you. Now, I understand consequences of Nikola's xenophobic
propaganda. He made equal SMS and email communication with poetry and
scientific papers which is written (and which is writing) in Latin
alphabet.

So, the question is do we need it. The answer is: No, we can use ASCII
characterset and English language for communication and we don't need
even Serbian Wikipedia.

Look, I am sick of two confronted main stream (sick) factions: One is
xenophobic and rejects all of Western influences into Serbian culture
and another is exponent of Western cultural imperialism and rejects
all of traditional parts of Serbian culture. The first doesn't want to
see Latin alphabet see Serbian alphabet, the another doesn't want to
see Cyrillic alphabet as Serbian alphabet. Xenophobic faction is
better organized, but exponents of Western cultural imperialism have
very strong "unofficial" centers. In the substance, both of factions
are the same: they are aggressive and they are making pressure to
others to be like them. After the first half of 20th century we have
word for people like them: they are fascists. And I hope Wiki(p|m)edia
is not project which support fascists.

It seems that I have to explain cultural situation in Serbia to
Wiki(p|m)edia's mailing lists, from time to time. So, let me try
again.

Children in Serbia, Montenegro and Republic of Srpska (the part of
Bosnia and Herzegovina) learns Cyrillic during the first year of
primary school (at the age of 6-7 years). All of them (I am not sure
for Republic of Srpska, but I think so) learn Latin alphabet during
the second year of primary school (at the age of 7-8 years). If
someone don't know Latin alphabet, (s)he didn't finish the second year
of primary school. And this situation is during around 50 years in
Serbian culture.

Introduction of Latin alphabet into Serbian culture made Serbian
philologist Djuro Danicic, who was working as secretary of Croatian
Academy of Sciences and Arts (the name was "Yugoslavian Academy", not
"Croatian") in Zagreb during the 19th century. But, Serbs started to
use widely Latin alphabet between the end of WWII and 1960s.

In 1970s and 1980s Latin alphabet was dominant in Serbia. Latin is
treated as "fancy", "modern", as well as other bullshits. When
nationalists came to power with Milosevic, Cyrillic alphabet started
to be used with characterization of Latin alphabet as "anti-Serb", as
"conspiracy against Serbs", as well as other bullshits. After
Milosevic, both of factions are strong enough.

As Internet had it's own, ASCII based rules, during 1990s we had a lot
of problems with introduction of Cyrillic alphabet into computers.
Also, computer technology came from the West with Western cultural
imperialism: During 1990s there were no a lot of computer workers
which had any idea about using Cyrillic alphabet (nor even Serbian
Latin alphabet; they used only ASCII).

We have deeply divided society. In this situation we are talking about
introduction of Latin alphabet. A few years ago analogue situation was
with introduction of Cyrillic alphabet into KDE and Microsoft
products.

And, during 1990s, opposition to Cyrillic inside of computer circles
was very very strong. Again, anyone who was working on Cyrillic was
characterized as "pro-Milosevic", as "nazi" (with, of course, other
kinds of such bullshits).

My conclusion is:

If you (I mean, all of people involved into Wikimedia) respect Serb
culture, you have to understand that Serbian culture has two
alphabets.

If there is no possibility for two alphabets (but, I don't see that
MediaWiki doesn't have that possibility), I think that it should be
Cyrillic (I think that, but not all of people from Serbia, some people
think that it should be Latin!). Cyrillic is better choice because of
transliteration, for sure. But, if we have possibility to use two
alphabets (we are not working on ASCII or 8-bit terminals anymore,
Unicode became standard), we should use it.

It is the matter of culture, not the matter of understanding. Take
care about: a lot of people don't want (or don't like, or don't know)
to use Cyrillic alphabet at computers. And some of them want to become
contributors to Serbian Wikipedia, but they don't want (don't like,
don't know) to do that in Cyrillic.

With only Cyrillic alphabet half of Serbs are excommunicated from
Serbian Wikipedia. Nikola wants that. I am wandering if others want
that?

> > But, if we can use both, we should use both.
>
> I fully agree (and there is no need to have a 50%-50% situation);
> btw in my work (I'm responsible of localization for a software company)
> I have long ago decided to provide the choice of both writtings
> (by requiring translators to use cyrillic, then converting from
> cyrillic to latin, as that is easy to do, while the conversion from
> latin to cyrillic is painfull, due to the high amount of things that
> must remain unchanged (urls, command names, file and path names,
> email addresses, etc.))

I am glad to know that there are computer people outside of Serbia who
take care about Serb culture when there are no so much computer people
in Serbia who take care about it.

Yes, conversion from Latin to Cyrillic is painful. But, we (or I) have
to make it in the future. A lot of texts in Serbian are written in
Latin alphabet and we need it in Cyrillic, too.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wiki-to-XML pseudo-parser in PHP

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
>
> Here it is! The millionth pseudo-parser I wrote for wiki(p|m)edia! :-)
>
> Try it out at
>
> http://www.magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/wiki2xml.php

So whatever became of the flex/bison parser, then? Has it been abandoned
because nobody can make sense of my code? :-)

Anyway, I've found a bug in your yanrap (Yet Another Not-Really-A-Parser):

Input:
* one
** one point one
* two

Output:
<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8' ?>

<list
type='bullet'><listitem>one<list type='bullet'><listitem>one point
one</listitem></list>two</listitem></list>

Should have been:
<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8' ?>

<list
type='bullet'><listitem>one<list type='bullet'><listitem>one point
one</listitem></list></listitem><listitem>two</listitem></list>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Rights

body:
I don't see why this is nessecary. Other people ask for the same sort of thing.

But unless you have some sort of psychological disorder where you
can't control your actions at all, you should be able to just not
block and unblock people without a technical measure.

Mark

On 4/13/05, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could my right to block and deblock people be removed without removing
> the possibility to use sysop rollback?
>
> Andre Engels
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Sean Barrett said:
> For me, the largest part of the problem with the Kate Winslet nude is
> that it renders all of Wikipedia non-work-safe.

What does "work-safe" mean in this context?  If it's only the pictures,
why do you browse wikipedia with image downloads turned on?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Kevin Rector said:
> I have ZERO desire to get into a legal debate wherein I have to waste
> my time "gathering evidence" and defending my accusation.

Then I suggest you withdraw your blatantly false accusation.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Sean Barrett said:
>
>> Why are you looking up Kate Winslet at work anyway? Why aren't you
>> working?
>
> Believe it or not, we have good reasons to look things up while at
> work, including articles about people.  If any biographical article can
> have a nude of that person, however, we won't be using Wikipedia to do
> so.

Why not?


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> Believe it or not, we have good reasons to look things up while at work,
> including articles about people.  If any biographical article can have
> a nude of that person, however, we won't be using Wikipedia to do so.

The above alone, I think, is good enough reason to ban nude pictures when
sufficient non-nude imagery is present.


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] REDIRECT to anchor

body:
On 4/13/05, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> [[m:Help:Redirect#A redirect to an anchor]] states that:
> ----
> An example of this:
>  <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[definitions#G]]</nowiki>
> This is not possible. You will still be redirected to
> <nowiki>[[definitions]]</nowiki> but you will not be sent to the #G anchor.
> This feature '''will not''' be implemented in the future, so such redirects
> should not be used.
> ----
> When was that last sentence added, and by whom, and on what authority?

Well, there has been discussion about it in the past, but no-one has
come up with a very convincing scheme of how it would actually work -
either technically, or in terms of content management. I would guess
whoever added that was trying to discourage the optimistic view that
"if we use it, it might start working some day" since the chances are
it never will.

The only "live" bug report I've been able to track down is
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1282

That said, one suggestion that just might work is to have a custom
redirect message appear with a link to the appropriate section. This
would avoid the problems of being dumped in the middle of an article,
at a header not necessarily 100% matching the topic searched for.
i.e., the message might say something like "For 'The Knights who say
Ni!', see [[#other characters]]"

[Note that in order to be useful for such messages, the redirect
notice would have to be slightly more noticeable than it is now - we
already have people not realising they've been redirected because
monobook does too good a job of making the notice look like a minor
decoration.]

Another key problem, though, is that the current system for linking to
sections doesn't create stable links - that is, if the heading name
changes, however subtly, all links to that heading become links to the
top of the article. One interesting idea that could solve that is
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1521 which suggests
manually specifying the anchor for a particular heading; this would
make the anchors "sticky", so having redirects pointing to them would
become far more useful.

So maybe saying this will "never" happen would be a bit strong, but I
think it's a fair way off yet, unless someone really commits to
designing and coding a decent solution.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Chad Perrin said:
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 02:47:28PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
>> Kevin Rector said:
>> > What Geni said.
>>
>> Well what Geni said seemed rather vague, but your accusation sounded
>> to me rather more specific.  Which particular incidents of alleged
>> "searching out" are you referring to?
>
> I hope KR doesn't take your bait on this.

I should hope that anyone making accusations of that nature would be
prepared to support them.>
> While I'm inclined to agree with your sentiment on this matter, at
> least moreso than the converse, it seems blindingly obvious to me that
> the "accusation" in question was meant as an expression of a perceived
> trend, from one person's perspective.

I may have misread it, but Kevin's wording was as follows:

"I've come to the realization that people are searching out nude pictures
to put in the 'pedia. They are looking to stir up trouble, mostly to make
a point."

That seems to be a pretty specific accusation, aimed at a subset of those
who upload images, specifically images involving nudity, accusing them of
doing so with the intention of breaking Wikipedia policy.

I take that very seriously.  It's an extremely damaging accusation, and if
Kevin has evidence to support it he should make it public.  If he doesn't
well we'll know he's just hand-waving, indulging in attempt to denigrate
those who have uploaded images involving nudity.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> Too bad my system is ancient and hasn't got the capabilities to record
> anything due to missing software and microphones. I do encourage the
> project, though.

Headsets with microphones are available for a child's pocket money.
Recording software is available for free (for Windows, for example,
Audacity). You have no excuse! ;-)

Timwi


from_name: Zach Alexander

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Alphax wrote:

> Sean Barrett wrote:
>
>> For me, the largest part of the problem with the Kate Winslet nude is
>> that it renders all of Wikipedia non-work-safe.  You can defend the
>> autofellatio picture by asking "why are you looking at an article
>> about sucking your own dick while at work?" but if any article that
>> mentions any person can have a nude picture of that person, I don't
>> dare use Wikipedia anywhere but in the privacy of my own bedroom, with
>> the shades drawn.
>>
>>
> Er, the Kate Winslet nude is only marginally "nude". If it's such a
> problem, use a tabbed browser or disable images.

"Marginally nude" is still nudity. One breast counts as nudity. You can
argue that nudity should be allowed on Wikipedia, and I might even
agree with you, but a spade's a spade.

And you can't seriously mean that disabling images is a real solution
to the problem. We'd have to have a notice on the main page, e.g.
"Note: Nudity may appear in any entry. If you are offended by nudity,
please disable images in your browser." I don't think that would go
over well.

>> Right now, anyone at my place of work who happens to look up Kate
>> Winslet will be disciplined.  If he then inadvertently trips over
>> another Wikinude, he'll be fired.  In other words, Wikipedia is now
>> unusable in a buttoned-down professional environment.
>>
>>
> Why are you looking up Kate Winslet at work anyway? Why aren't you
> working?

I agree that this is a very good question. But the workplace isn't the
only context where being seen using a site with random nudity on it has
social consequences. So I think there's still some need for policies.

How hard would it be to add to Mediawiki the option to tag explicit
images, and have an option in the preferences to not see them? A la
Google SafeSearch. This might be a win-win (aside from the programming
work) solution.

Zach


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Well the uploader was [[User:1337]] lets look at his contributions and
see what we can found out.

His first two edits were to to put upload that picture and put into
the article. A new user know how to find Special:upload is not unheard
of but...

Well to continue the user created [[11th millennium]] which is
currently listed on VFD and looks like it is going to be deleted.

next there is an edit to very POV edit to [[0s BC]] which gets reverted

Then then the user blanks his talk page

Finialy the User uploads [[Image:Msspyware.png]] a faked image with no
mention that it is faked (It is a low grade bit of antimicrsoft
propergander) and inserts it into an article again with no mention
that it is faked.

Now I suspose he could be looking for the title of most clueless
newbie every but I'm not to sure
--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VfD relisting time

body:
Stephen Adair wrote:

> There is currently a vote underway on an article that was relisted for VfD seventeen hours after the previous VfD was closed.  I originally voted to delete based on content (IMO, non-notable autobiography), but now I am voting to keep based on principle.  It just survived VfD.  Community consensus means nothing if we only abide by it when things go our way.
>
> This article was returned to VfD less than a day after the previous VfD was closed.  IMO, that showed a disregard for process, for community consensus, for the opinions of those who had voted, and for the spirit (if not the letter) of Wikipedia policy.
>
> By relisting the article almost immediately, the lister unilaterally forced an extension of the VfD debate, without regard to anyone else's wishes and without regard to standard practice (no consensus to delete means keep).  If someone thinks an article should be deleted, they should not simply keep relisting it until it eventually gets deleted.  I had originally voted to delete, but I draw the line at this.
>
> Obviously, by drawing attention to this, I'm hoping that enough people get involved and vote to keep on principle.  How long do we respect a VfD result?  Until the next time we log in?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Grant_Neufeld

Please could you tell your mailer to word-wrap your postings? Thanks.

You are misrepresenting the issue. While I don't agree that an article
should be re-listed again and again, you are making it sound like there
was consensus to keep the article, but apparently there wasn't.

Secondly, you seem to be thinking that you can have more say in the
discussion by voting not just "keep", but "Strong Keep!", complete with
capitals and an exclamation point.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Language conversion

body:
As I see, in this moment Serbian Wikipedia only needs:

1. Table for transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin.

2. Table for transliteration from Latin to Cyrillic with some
exceptions: Users should have possibility to split Latin digrams "lj",
"nj" and "d?" with some sign (let's say backslash: "l\j", "n\j" and
"d\?") if those digrams doesn't represent Cyrillic letter "?", "?" and
"?".

3. Other situations should be solved via exceptions.

I would like if we can make some interaction with Serbian Wiktionary
in the future. Also, I would like to have possibility to see all
exceptions from database. It would be very important linguistic
material.

"And now, something completely different!" :) Serbian language has two
standard alphabets and two standard variants: "ekavian" (standard in
Serbia) and "iyekavian" (standard in Republic of Srpska and
Montenegro). Is it possible to make some markup extension at the
character (and group of characters) level?

Serbian word for "milk" is in ekavian "mleko", but in iyekavian it is
"mlijeko". So, with some markup can bi written like "ml{e|ije}ko";
"bred" is "hleb" in ekavian and "hljeb" in iyekavian, so it should be
written like "h{l|lj}eb". No one should be forced to use markup, but
there are some people at sr: who would do that.

In other words, Chinese Wikipedia has three variants and Serbian
should have four (ekavian Cyrillic and Latin, iyekavian Cyrillic and
Latin).

So, please, tell me what do I need to send you for Serbian
transliteration? I'll try to write something about Serbian
transliteration at Meta. Also, we should make some general page about
transliteration/conversion.

On 4/12/05, zhengzhu <zhengzhu at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have started to write some documentation about the Chinese
> conversion system at meta:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chinese_conversion
>
> People interested in implementing conversion systems for other
> languages should take a look at it. Note that most features
> implemented are not Chinese specific.
>
> --
> zhengzhu
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Kevin Rector wrote

>I've tried to stay out of the fray with all the nude/porn picture
debates that have gone on, but I've come to the realization that people
are searching out nude pictures to put in the 'pedia. They are looking
to stir up trouble, mostly to make a point.

That might be correct. Try [[Mull of Kintyre rule]], created not long ago.

Charles


from_name: Uwe Baumbach

subject: [Wikitech-l] Please Help: Link to a letter on a category page?

body:
Hi,

Category pages with a big number of articles seem to be somewhat unhandy...

I am looking for a way to link directly to a letter inside a category page, something like

[[:category:MyCategory#L]]

This link does not work.
Wrong syntax?
Does one know any working solution?
Change the PHP, generating the sorted category page and "adding" the missed anchors?

Thanks.
--?
Looking forward to your answer...
--

Uwe?Baumbach
U.Baumbach at web.de

______________________________________________________________
Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VfD relisting time

body:
> Stephen Adair wrote:
>
> > There is currently a vote underway on an article that was relisted for
VfD seventeen hours after the previous VfD was closed.  I originally voted
to delete based on content (IMO, non-notable autobiography), but now I am
voting to keep based on principle.  It just survived VfD.  Community
consensus means nothing if we only abide by it when things go our way.
> >
> > This article was returned to VfD less than a day after the previous VfD
was closed.  IMO, that showed a disregard for process, for community
consensus, for the opinions of those who had voted, and for the spirit (if
not the letter) of Wikipedia policy.
> >
> > By relisting the article almost immediately, the lister unilaterally
forced an extension of the VfD debate, without regard to anyone else's
wishes and without regard to standard practice (no consensus to delete means
keep).  If someone thinks an article should be deleted, they should not
simply keep relisting it until it eventually gets deleted.  I had originally
voted to delete, but I draw the line at this.
> >
> > Obviously, by drawing attention to this, I'm hoping that enough people
get involved and vote to keep on principle.  How long do we respect a VfD
result?  Until the next time we log in?
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Grant_Neufeld
>

If there is no consensus then a quick re-listing is fine. Of course theres
re-listing vandalism, but that is dealt with.


from_name: Kate Turner

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: dumps

body:
Timwi wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> What is the problem
> with storing article texts in the DB? It would seem that LiveJournal is
> storing *way* more text in their DB than Wikipedia, so what is different
> about Wikipedia that makes it infeasible to follow their example?

one thing to consider is that LJ is able to cluster text storage over
several databases, separated by journal.  we cannot split en: between more
than one database, at least until if/when MySQL Cluster becomes useful.

(well, some homegrown solution can be used, but then that's just external
text storage that happens to use MySQL).

in any case, just because LJ does it one way doesn't mean that's the best
way to do it...

> Timwi

kate.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
geni said:
>
> Finialy the User uploads [[Image:Msspyware.png]] a faked image with no
> mention that it is faked (It is a low grade bit of antimicrsoft
> propergander) and inserts it into an article again with no mention that
> it is faked.

It's probable that he thought it was real.  This has entered
anti-Microsoft folklore.

>
> Now I suspose he could be looking for the title of most clueless
> newbie every but I'm not to sure

Not the most clueful of guys, but not an obvious troll.  I don't think you
can seriously hope to discredit the picture on these grounds.


from_name: Petr Kadlec

body:
Aren't you looking for .../Category:Foobar?from=L ?

See source of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:CategoryTOC for inspiration.

[[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]


from_name: Coyne Tibbets

subject: [Wikitech-l] "You have messages" directed me to User_talk:10.0.0.23

body:
(History: This issue was initially directed to vandalism list for lack of a clue.  After discussion with User:CaesarB, he recommended that I approach a developer. I hope this is the right method to do that.)

On April 12th, I visited the main page of en.wikipedia.org while not logged on.  At the top of the page was notice that "you have messages". When I selected the associated link, I was directed to the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:10.0.0.23, upon which was posted a "no more nonsense" warning (which is still there).

I have limited understanding of the IP and wikimedia, but it seemed that this should not happen, since I am external to wiki.  To the best of my knowledge, I should have been identified as IP 204.4.13.x (probably IP 204.4.13.72 but this may be shared).  Also, the presence of the warning at the 10.0.0.23 user talk page suggests that at least some edits were identified as coming from that address.

CaesarB suggested I approach a developer because, "[...] it might mean a misconfigured Squid proxy on Wikipedia's side [...]".

I'm still fairly new to wiki, so I don't know if this is the right venue to broach such a request or not.  If am not in the right place to pursue this, please direct me at the reply address (or at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CoyneT).

If this is the right venue, would someone please keep me posted?

Thanks.

Coyne Tibbets

--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: FOLDOC, acknowledgments and GFDL

body:
Denis Howe wrote:
> I am very happy to have any kind of acknowledgement or back link on FOLDOC based
> articles in Wikipedia.  I would be almost as happy just to have a single
> acknowledgement on some suitable global page.  I would not be at all happy to
> have no acknowledgement at all but I'd just cry quietly to myself at night about
> it. :-)

/me idly envisions a [[Category:Articles based on FOLDOC]], but then
keeps quiet for fear of the anti-Categories league.


from_name: Faraaz Damji

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia sock puppet subscribing me to junkmail

body:
Yes, a developer can check for all other users that share this IP
address (sockpuppets).  #mediawiki on freenode usually has a bunch of
them, and #wikipedia might also have some hanging around.

You should report them to the FTC/FCC (I think it's the FTC, but I'm not
sure).  How did they get your email? Did you email them back after they
[[Special:Emailuser]]'d you?

If you could trace them back to a user on wikipedia, then it looks like
you probably caught the actual guy rather than a proxy :D

Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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O? M-- V? PS++ PE Y PGP++ t 5-- X+ R tv b++ DI++ D+
G++ e- h! !r !z
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> Recently I have had a deluge of junkmail, and I have a pretty good idea
> who it is. One of emails (below), from LeadFactory.com, included the IP
> address of the person who subscribed me.
>
> I had a hunch, considering, one, a lot of it is right-wing U.S. and
> Israeli email (of which related articles I've been editing lately) and,
> two, it's the first junkmail I've ever received at this address. So I
> plugged the address into Wikipedia and whatta ya know, a probable sock
> puppet who has been especially abusive to me recently:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:
> Contributions&target=155.84.57.253
>
> You might also like to check out some of the sock puppet's responses to
> requests to stop vandalism and 3RR:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:155.84.57.253
>
> I also did a geographic trace on the IP and they're from Houston Texas.
>
> Can this IP address be permanently banned or something? Is there anyone
> who can check the address against other usernames?
>
> Christiaan
>
>>     From:       reply at LeadFactory.com
>>     Subject:     Welcome to LeadFactory! (1113341886.13.28781)
>>     Date:     12 April 2005 10:38:06 pm BST
>>     To:       christiaan at last-straw.net
>>     Received-Spf:     none (No spf1 record for (phl13.note.com) )
>> client-ip=207.106.91.43; envelope-from=<lf_sub at phl13.note.com>;
>>     X-Default-Received-Spf:     pass (Last token {a} (res=PASS))
>> client-ip=207.106.91.43; envelope-from=<lf_sub at phl13.note.com>;
>>     Received:     from phl13.note.com (unverified [207.106.91.43])
>> by  serverlogistics.com (SurgeMail 2.2c9) with ESMTP id 1899996  for
>> <christiaan at last-straw.net>; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:38:12 -0700 PDT
>>     Received:     (from lf_sub at localhost) by phl13.note.com
>> (8.11.6/8.11.6)  id j3CLc6q28834; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:38:06 -0400
>>     Return-Path:     <lf_sub at phl13.note.com>
>>     Message-Id:     <200504122138.j3CLc6q28834 at phl13.note.com>
>>     X-Http-User-Agent:     Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows
>> NT  5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)
>>     X-Remote-Host:
>>     X-Remote-Address:     155.84.57.253
>>     X-Lb-Comment:     LF Subscription Welcome; complaints to
>> abuse at LeadFactory.com
>>     X-Mailer:     robosub from LeadFactory.com (v. 1.02)
>>     X-Server:     High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com
>>     X-Rcpt-To:     <christiaan at last-straw.net>
>>     X-Spamdetect-Info:     This message may be spam see
>> http://www.smitespam.com for more information
>>     X-Spamdetect:     ****: 4.578000 Opt-in=0.7,Information on how to
>> work  at home (2)=0.1,Message talks about earning money=1.5,From: does
>> not  include a real name=0.3,SpamUrl=2.0
>>     X-Spamurl:     leadfactory.com
>>     X-Ip-Stats:     No info recorded yet
>>     X-External-Ip:     207.106.91.43
>>
>> This email is to notify you that a subscription request
>> has been received through our LeadFactory system, to the
>> email publication(s) listed below.
>>
>> Each publisher will acknowledge your subscription to their
>> list separately by email, with their own instructions for
>> cancelling future messages.
>>
>> You have NOT been subscribed to any list belonging to us
>> (LeadFactory) as a result of this subscription request, and
>> will thus receive NO future emails from us (LeadFactory).
>>
>> If someone else used LeadFactory to subscribe you to the
>> lists below without your permission, please accept our
>> apologies and forward a copy of this entire email to
>> abuse at LeadFactory.com to be unsubscribed.
>>
>> =====
>>
>> SUBSCRIPTIONS REQUESTED
>>
>> Multiple Streams of Income -- Free wealth creation training
>> newsletter by Robert G. Allen, best selling author of
>> "Nothing Down" and "Creating Wealth"!
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>> improve your internet business. Invest time & money in
>> yourself.
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>> Business Solutions CEO Martin Howey gives you "Secrets
>> Revealed: How To Make $100K In 90 Days As A Professional
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>> Secret to Success", helps you start or boost your own
>> home-based business! No AOL Addresses Please
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>> build a massive e-business with lightning speed, regardless
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>> SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION
>>
>> Subscriber: christiaan at last-straw.net
>> Name: Christiaan Briggs
>> IP Address: 155.84.57.253
>> Hostname:
>> Date/Time: Tue Apr 12 21:38:06 GMT 2005
>>
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>> === Subscriptions powered by LeadFactory...
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>>
>>    [LeadFactory opt-in email is sent by note.com LLC
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Andre Engels

body:
> Category pages with a big number of articles seem to be somewhat unhandy...
>
> I am looking for a way to link directly to a letter inside a category page, something like
>
> [[:category:MyCategory#L]]
>
> This link does not work.
> Wrong syntax?
> Does one know any working solution?
> Change the PHP, generating the sorted category page and "adding" the missed anchors?

Link to [http://xx.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Categorie:MyCategory&from=L]
instead. Only minus is that it looks like an external rather than an
internal link.

Andre Engels


from_name: Karl A. Krueger

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 09:37:20PM +0100, Zoney wrote:
> In fairness, would a screengrab of the actual ship from the movie not
> be more appropriate? (Then again, considering the plot... :-)

Absolutely!  These are serious concerns regarding the relevance of the
picture.  These are the concerns that should motivate the selection of
images for encyclopedia articles -- whether they are well-composed,
relevant, and appropriate to the article in question.

It's unfortunate that some people seem to be able to talk about only
whether the image in question is "indecent" or offensive to their
personal sensibilities, and not whether it is useful or relevant to the
encyclopedia.  Why is this unfortunate?  The former criterion is *never*
acceptable or useful as an argument for choosing an image, whereas the
latter criterion *always* is.

--
Karl A. Krueger <kkrueger at whoi.edu>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> Rick wrote:
>
> >The community HAS resolved this non-problem.  It has
> >decided, by consensus, that there is nothing wrong
> >with having images like this.
> >
> I hope this is not so.  I don't tend to be vocal in these debates, but I
> will feel a strong regret if the encyclopedia becomes the bulletin board
> for such a community.
>
> I would like to suggest from my own experience a possible factor that
> tends to consistently skew debates on these subjects.  Some of you may
> be surprised, but most of you will sympathize with the idea that I find
> the mere subject line of the current thread to be embarrassing and
> discouraging to my participation.  I am very hesitant to visit, even for
> the noblest reasons, some of the arenas where these debates have run
> (autofel..., clit...).  I am a father, a brother, a husband, a church
> elder, an engineer, and many other roles in which I am loathe to be
> associated with the subjects of these debates.  I suggest that many,
> many others like me who have opinions that there is something wrong with
> including images like this also have various reasons to be discouraged
> from participating in debates about the same images.  I am very sorry
> that we are absent from such debates, but it just happens that they are
> framed in ways and carried on in places that discourage our active
> participation.
>
> Tom Haws
>
> _______________________________________________

I second this. I'd love to see this debate re-opened. Kate Winslet, for
example, has 10,000+ images available of her, why do we need to choose the
nude one? This is more ridiculous than [[Autofellatio]]. It really is
somebodys wet dream.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikimedia announces Yahoo support

body:
Mathias Schindler wrote:
> http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=What+is+the+capital+of+France&btnG=Search

Ah, but if you type just "capital France", you get this above the first
search result:

	France
	Capital: Paris

For some countries, it has even more information than just the capital:

	Tuvalu
	Capital: Funafuti; note - administrative offices are located in
	         Vaiaku Village on Fongafale Islet

	Netherlands
	Capital: Amsterdam; The Hague is the seat of government

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Language conversion

body:
On 4/13/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Serbian word for "milk" is in ekavian "mleko", but in iyekavian it is
> "mlijeko". So, with some markup can bi written like "ml{e|ije}ko";
> "bred" is "hleb" in ekavian and "hljeb" in iyekavian, so it should be
> written like "h{l|lj}eb". No one should be forced to use markup, but
> there are some people at sr: who would do that.

My English is bad... Sentecne "No one should be forced to use markup,
but there are some people at sr: who woudl do that." should be "No one
should be forced to use markup, but there are some people at sr: who
would markup texts." :)


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Terri Schiavo article: two separate "calls to arms"
	within days.

body:
>From a RFC at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/NCdave

Pat Sweeney ([[User:Patsw]]) describes himself as an "extreme" Catholic.
He says: '"extreme" simply means that I'm faithful, serious, and willing
to take risks to share in the mission of the Catholic Church.'
He has put out "call to arms", dated April 9, asking his readers to come
and join "The battle to re-write the history of Terri Schiavo's history"
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo
http://extremecatholic.blogspot.com/2005_04_03_extremecatholic_archive.html#111306581589743852
This blog entry references an earlier "call to arms" on another blog,
dated April 5th.
http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/04/wikipedia_has_n.php


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Sean Barrett said:
>> From: "Tony Sidaway" <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
>> Sean:
>> >
>> > Believe it or not, we have good reasons to look things up while at
>> > work, including articles about people.  If any biographical article
>> > can have a nude of that person, however, we won't be using Wikipedia
>> > to do so.
>>
>> Why not?
>
> Corporate policy prohibits all images of nudity, out of fear of sexual
> harassment lawsuits.  Repeat offenses result in termination.  I love
> Wikipedia, but I'm not going to lose my job because the Wikipedia
> community feels it necessary to show bare boobies.

The chance of seeing a picture containing nudity applies to the whole of
the WWW.  Surely the logical thing to do is to suppress image downloads.
That way you only see the pictures you want to see, and you get all the
text.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Tom Haws said:
> I suggest that
> many,  many others like me who have opinions that there is something
> wrong with  including images like this also have various reasons to be
> discouraged  from participating in debates about the same images.  I am
> very sorry  that we are absent from such debates, but it just happens
> that they are  framed in ways and carried on in places that discourage
> our active  participation.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

body:
Anthere wrote:
> I looked at their review process... I do not see how it could work...
> Eh, it reminds me of Nupedia !

I agree, but it's different from Nupedia in that they've got tons more
resources than Nupedia did.  Still, I don't see encarta becoming the
largest encyclopedia in the world, since there is little reason for
people to contribute.  It doesn't even seem like they give attribution
(do they? If so, where?).

I don't think that there will be dedicated editors like there are on
Wikipedia, and like there were on Nupedia, since encarta is completely
for profit- they're in it for the money and NOT for providing free
access to "the sum of all human knowledge." There might be some casual
editors who, upon finding something that wasn't previously there, will
submit it (eg. if somebody died).  There is little reason I see for
anybody going on the site for the purpose of improving it.

While it will help keep the encyclopedia more up-to-date, I doubt it
will ever become nearly as popular as Wikipedia is.

Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

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>
>
> Tony Sidaway a ?crit:
>
>> Magnus Manske said:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
>>> staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.
>>>
>>> That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Searched Encarta for 'autofellatio'
>>
>> No results were found for your search in Encarta.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
>
> You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
> staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.

They even specifically denounce Wikipedia's factual accuracy:

	Encarta is different from open-content encyclopedias found
	elsewhere on the Web that post users' changes immediately. To
	ensure the greatest possible accuracy, all suggested changes to
	Encarta undergo fact-checking before being posted. As an
	encyclopedia, accuracy is one of our hallmarks, and even
	articles prepared by our own editors are fact-checked before
	being included.

They also have a page "About Editing Articles in Encarta" which
essentially sums up many of our policies such as NPOV and avoiding
peacock/weasel terms.


from_name: Sebastien BARRE

subject: [Wikitech-l] Category array

body:
At 4/10/2005 12:50 AM, Dennis Schaaf wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I'm trying to play around with the category page a little bit. Everything
>would
>be a lot easier if I could just somehow get an array with all pages listed in
>category x. Can you guys give me some hints on how to create such a function?
>Unfortunately the databaselayout does not talk about categorylinks.

I actually wrote an extension that does just that (and more), i.e. it
creates a TOC of pages matching criterions, and you can definitely
specificy the category name to be one of them (or even match a pattern).

http://public.kitware.com/Wiki/User:Barre/MediaWiki/Extensions/kw_site_map

--
Sebastien Barre


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> It is?  I'm sorry I didn't read the announcement, I was too busy doing RC
> patrol.

Well, it's just an idea right now, but maybe the original poster was
talking about [[Wikipedia:Baseline revision]]s?

Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

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from_name: Lars Aronsson

body:
Milos Rancic wrote:
> If you (I mean, all of people involved into Wikimedia) respect Serb
> culture, you have to understand that Serbian culture has two
> alphabets.
>
> If there is no possibility for two alphabets (but, I don't see that
> MediaWiki doesn't have that possibility), I think that it should be

If you (I mean, all Serbs) respect wikitech-l culture, you have to
understand that there can only be one language: PHP.

If you can write a solution in PHP for having one MediaWiki site
where every article can be displayed in two different alphabets at
the same time (according to each user's preference, I guess), you
are welcome to introduce this feature in the next release.  Go
ahead.

Clearly, the Serbian Wikipedia cannot be the only website in
Serbian.  There must reasonably be other Serbian websites which
have already addressed and solved this problem, and from where you
can get ideas for a practical and working solution.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Accuracy, please, in regard to Miss Winslet

body:
I am reminded of the scene in the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical, "The
King and I," when Anna and her young son Louis first arrive in port,
and Anna exclaims at the sign of a man on the pier who is "naked."
"Naked?" asks Louis? "Well, half-naked anyway," says Anna.

For what it's worth, the American Heritage dictionary defines "nude" as
"1. Having no clothing; naked.  2. Permitting or featuring full
exposure of the body: a nude beach," and "seminude" as "Only partially
clothed: posed seminude for a painter; seminude statues."

So, please, let us refer to this as a picture of the _seminude_ Miss
Winslet.

Indeed, given the strategic placement of Jack's sketchpad, one could
make out a case for her condition as being hemi-seminude.

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikitech-l] REDIRECT to anchor

body:
On 4/13/05, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> [[m:Help:Redirect#A redirect to an anchor]] states that:

> This feature '''will not''' be implemented in the future, so such redirects
> should not be used.
> ----
> When was that last sentence added, and by whom, and on what authority?

I added "it is possible this feature will be implemented in future, so
such redirects can be used now for future compatibility" to
[[Wikipedia:How to edit a page]] last February. I still believe it's
true, despite Bugzilla.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page&diff=2409925&oldid=2409268

However, this was changed by Gracefool after Brion recommended against
it at http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=218

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page&diff=5514723&oldid=5511936

Angela.


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Rights

body:
That isn't relevant to what I said - if he no longer wants to be a
sysop on nl.wikipedia, he no longer wants to be a sysop, but if he
wants to retain some features of a sysop... you can't have your cake
and eat it, too. Well, in this case you can (as Angela said), but I
still think such cases like this are silly. Why can't people just not
use the features they don't want?

Also, I don't know if this is a universal rule, but on en: you may not
ban yourself. If you violate this rule, you are punished severely
by... being _unbanned_! lol.

Mark

On 4/13/05, Wouter Steenbeek <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> This has something to do with an unlucky recent event on the Dutch
> Wikipedia, Mark. Ask Andr? himself if you'd like to know more about it. But
> I think it is solved now, more or less.
>
> Wouter
>
> >From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>,wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >To: Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> >Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Rights
> >Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:13:41 -0700
> >
> >I don't see why this is nessecary. Other people ask for the same sort of
> >thing.
> >
> >But unless you have some sort of psychological disorder where you
> >can't control your actions at all, you should be able to just not
> >block and unblock people without a technical measure.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >On 4/13/05, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Could my right to block and deblock people be removed without removing
> > > the possibility to use sysop rollback?
> > >
> > > Andre Engels
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Webmessenger: altijd en overal beschikbaar http://webmessenger.msn.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikinews-l] TheWorldForum.org adds Wikinews
	logo

body:
Jimmy,

I have asked Drog to remove the logo box, at least temporarily. I find
this very sad and would like to hear your rationale why this is
necessary. TWF follows an NPOV/MPOV-style policy and has been very
helpful to us, and their additional free advertising is very nice for a
still-small site.

I never authorized an "In Association With" heading and am happy to
suggest alternatives, and Angela is correct that the "Visit our
sponsors" link (which refers to the Google ads above it) was misleading;
again, I gave no authorization for that. In any case, as you may recall,
you appointed me as "Wikimedia Foundation Content Partnership
Co-ordinator" on February 18, 2004, which I (it turns out, wrongly)
believed at least gave me some additional leeway to do these things.

Is there any other procedure I should have followed, and if so, where is
it documented?
	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Logos
doesn't say anything. Nor does:
	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks

I believe that logos and buttons that people can click on are a natural
thing on the web, and that we should be fairly relaxed about people
using our logos (especially those of projects which need exposure),
unless it's clearly against our interest to do so. Firefox' trademark is
not diluted by people putting Firefox buttons on their homepages - it is
diluted by another web browser calling itself "Firefox-XP".

A project which prides itself on being free content gains nothing from
treating logos as precious intellectual property that needs to be
protected from evil.

Erik


from_name: Robin Shannon

body:
On 4/13/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.theworldforum.org/
>
> World Forum is not just using the logo. It is also claiming to be "In
> Association With Wikinews", which implies a lot more than simply
> making use of our content.
>
> The logo appears directly underneath a "Visit our advertisers" notice.
> This needs to be removed to prevent people being misled into thinking
> that their donations to the Foundation are being wasted on paying for
> advertising on such sites.
>
> Something stating that _some_ content is from Wikinews would be more
> appropriate. At the moment, the Wikinews logo appears more prominently
> than the site's own logo, giving the impression that Wikinews has far
> more influence over the site than it does.
>
> Angela.

Indeed, i dont mind having the logo on there somewhere, but it has to
be clearer that we are not a sponser, and that we are not affiliated
with thier POV. Something more like "Wikinews - content porvider" or
something.

-[[User:The bellman]]

--
hit me: <robin.shannon.id.au>
jab me: <robin.shannon at jabber.org.au>

This work is released into the public domain.
<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain>


from_name: Milos Rancic

body:
On 4/13/05, Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se> wrote:
> Milos Rancic wrote:
> > If you (I mean, all of people involved into Wikimedia) respect Serb
> > culture, you have to understand that Serbian culture has two
> > alphabets.
> >
> > If there is no possibility for two alphabets (but, I don't see that
> > MediaWiki doesn't have that possibility), I think that it should be
>
> If you (I mean, all Serbs) respect wikitech-l culture, you have to
> understand that there can only be one language: PHP.

:) I am working on it according to Zhengzhu's principles. (It sound's
like some kind of Chinese philosophy :) )


from_name: Alphax

body:
Tim Starling wrote:

>SPUI wrote:
>
>
>>Alphax wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sorry about the subject lines...this mailing list really needs to be
>>>>turned into a newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Newsgroups are not accessable to those without news servers. Email is
>>>available to anyone with Web access.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Not necessarily; it could be set up on a Wikipedia server to which
>>anyone could connect.
>>
>>
>
>Gmane is such a server, it's news.gmane.org. It's not part of USENET so
>it's not included in the Google index. Anyone with access to NNTP (on
>port 119) and a newsreader (Outlook Express, Thunderbird, etc.) can
>access it.
>
>I use Gmane, with my mailing list subscriptions set to "nomail" in my
>mailman preferences.
>
>-- Tim Starling
>
>
I don't have access to NNTP.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

references:
<d3hebo$dru$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<fb7fdd9c050413001570d21187@mail.gmail.com>
	<d3jdut$cao$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Is being broke enough of an excuse?

On 4/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> > Too bad my system is ancient and hasn't got the capabilities to record
> > anything due to missing software and microphones. I do encourage the
> > project, though.
>
> Headsets with microphones are available for a child's pocket money.
> Recording software is available for free (for Windows, for example,
> Audacity). You have no excuse! ;-)
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: V. Ivanov

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic again (bugs, bugs, bugs...)

body:
On 4/12/05, Alexander Sigachov <sas at ponyexpress.ru> wrote:
> > The interwiki link updater system seems to be broken, so it's waiting
> > until somebody has the chance to go over it.
>
> Is it posible to look at it? Where?
>

I wish you all possible success!
As I understand the problem is not only about the Ossetic W. It
concerns several newer wikipedias too (e. g. interwiki-links from
Ossetic W to codes  minnan, ast, ang, lb don't work now).

Sl.

--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: Richard Holton

body:
On 4/13/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> >From a RFC at
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/NCdave
>
> Pat Sweeney ([[User:Patsw]]) describes himself as an "extreme" Catholic.
> He says: '"extreme" simply means that I'm faithful, serious, and willing
> to take risks to share in the mission of the Catholic Church.'
> He has put out "call to arms", dated April 9, asking his readers to come
> and join "The battle to re-write the history of Terri Schiavo's history"
> at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo
> http://extremecatholic.blogspot.com/2005_04_03_extremecatholic_archive.html#111306581589743852
> This blog entry references an earlier "call to arms" on another blog,
> dated April 5th.
> http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/04/wikipedia_has_n.php
>

I suspect we will continue to see more of this sort of thing, from all
quarters. The trick will be to protect the NPOV of the article(s)
while benefiting from any real information that might come to light.
Oh, and along the way, recruit additional productive editors from
among those who visit as a result of the "call to arms."

(People said a wiki-encyclopedia would never work, too...)

-- Rich Holton

[[W:en:User:Rholton]]


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Charles Matthews said:
> Kevin Rector wrote
>
>>I've tried to stay out of the fray with all the nude/porn picture
> debates that have gone on, but I've come to the realization that people
> are searching out nude pictures to put in the 'pedia. They are looking
> to stir up trouble, mostly to make a point.
>
> That might be correct. Try [[Mull of Kintyre rule]], created not long
> ago.

Actually I've heard of that test.  It's a venerable old thing.  The
article is encyclopedic and the redeployment of an existing illustration
is absolutely inspired.
It just goes to show that it's easy to misread intention if one doesn't
know the context.

Example:

http://homepage.mac.com/kiltedpride/blogwavestudio/

The Herald October 14th 1999 - It's a Brief Encounter

(article about a famous Scottish lawyer who specializes in entertainment
law, including obscenity)
'Findlay's fate was destined to be brighter. He started with small theatre
contracts and one deal led to another. Today, he heads up Tods Murray's
entertainment and media law team and, in his spare time, he sits on the
board of the Lyceum. He has worked on films such as Trainspotting, waded
through the logistical legal nightmares of organising the Edinburgh
Military Tattoo, and negotiated the more delicate matters of obscenity. On
the latter point, Findlay admits life was once simple. "It used to be the
case that as long as it was the same as the Mull of Kintyre, so to speak,
all was well with the world, but with certain relaxations on male nudity
we can no longer rely on that old adage," explains Findlay.'


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On 4/13/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> Corporate policy prohibits all images of nudity, out of fear of sexual
> harassment lawsuits.  Repeat offenses result in termination.  I love
> Wikipedia, but I'm not going to lose my job because the Wikipedia
> community feels it necessary to show bare boobies.

Sean brings up a good point here. As long as Mediawiki is without a
content filtering system, the possibility of problems arising from
images or other content exists. It's quite plausible that someone
could, say, lose his or her job because of viewing a Wikipedia article
and then sue the Foundation for damages, asserting that the Foundation
did not give fair warning about such content. We do have a disclaimer,
but that may not be sufficient, especially since it's linked at the
bottoms of articles.

--Slowking Man


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Poland

body:
Dariusz,

I would like to invite you and one or two other prominent pl.wikipedia
users to join juriwiki-l to discuss the
details of this with the legal team.  There are a lot of options and
choices that we can talk about.

I'm very excited to see this development.  I hope that I can come to
Poland for an organizational meeting...
I am very happy that I attended the first big organizational meeting of
the de and fr chapters, and this is a tradition
I would like to continue if I can. :-)

--Jimbo


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Poland


from_name: Violet/Riga

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Competition for the standardisation of talk page
	templates

body:
There is now an open competition for the standardisation of talk page
templates.  See  [[Wikipedia:Template standardisation]] for details.

Submit your entries before voting commences at the end of 24 April 2005.

~~~~ Violet/Riga


from_name: Kevin Rector

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
Tony, I didn't make an "accusation" I made an observation about people like User:1337. You may disagree with my observation. But at this point I'm tired of this whole thing. You haven't listened to a single thing I've said, you just keep arguing. This is not productive, and I'm done with it. Please stop trying to pick a fight with me (If you not trying to pick a fight I sure feel like you are).

-Kevin

________________________________

From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org on behalf of Tony Sidaway
Sent: Wed 4/13/2005 10:22 AM
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

Kevin Rector said:
> I have ZERO desire to get into a legal debate wherein I have to waste
> my time "gathering evidence" and defending my accusation.

Then I suggest you withdraw your blatantly false accusation.

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On 4/13/05, Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Kevin Rector wrote
>
> >I've tried to stay out of the fray with all the nude/porn picture
> debates that have gone on, but I've come to the realization that people
> are searching out nude pictures to put in the 'pedia. They are looking
> to stir up trouble, mostly to make a point.
>
> That might be correct. Try [[Mull of Kintyre rule]], created not long ago.
>
> Charles

Pretty good could do with a reference or to and the position of the
Mull of Kintyre being made a bit clearer on the map.

--
geni


subject: [Foundation-l] Talking about stewards

body:
Walter van Kalken wrote:

> With all the talk about stewards ...... I thought the
> stewardcollection would be expanded in March? Either through election
> or by Jimbo's choice?

I meant to do this, but it slipped my mind.  I will review the list and
make some stewards tomorrow or the next day.

To answer something Mark Williamson said, the problem with elections has
nothing to do with a "bad candidate" being elected,
of course.  The community always makes wise decisions.  It's more a
matter of recognizing that we don't need to vote on every little thing
and that this position, while one of deep trust, is not a policy
position but a position of service to the community, a privilege, not an
elected right.

The democratic impulse is admirable and often useful, but in other cases
it's better if we just move forward and trust people to
do the right thing.  (And yell at them, remove them, if they don't.)

--Jimbo


subject: [Foundation-l] Talking about stewards


from_name: Byortek wiki

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: Re: unable to access
	mywiki	outsidemy	privatenetwork

body:
From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>

>Byortek wiki wrote:
>>> From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>
>>>Did you set the ServerName directive correctly in httpd.conf (or your
>>><VirtualHost> section)?
>>
>> I haven't set the ServerName nor any <VirtualHost> section.

> Then Apache will probably be autodetecting your hostname (smallpc.home)
> and using that.

Yep. Right. I set the ServerName to smallpc.dyndns.org and I'm not
getting the redirection to the private URL.

It was not getting the redirection to the private URL with the test file
maybe because (as you said) this redirection occurs only when requesting
a *directory* without the final slash.

Thanks and sorry for the trouble
Eric


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
>Well, gee, Kevin, when you try to equate everybody who
>disagrees with you on this subject with pornographers,
>how else am I supposed to interpret your age level and
>the age level of your interests?

That's just plain dishonest Rick. I was talking about trolls and people who are trying to make a point at the expense of the encyclopedia. I was not talking about breasts per se.

>Showing one breast is pornography?

I never --ever-- said that it was. Stop putting words into my mouth.

>Not a very mature outlook on the
>world at large, on art, or on the history
>of illustration, is it?

Again you imply that I'm immature, and all based on falseness and lies. Sad.

So to answer your question, "how else am I supposed to interpret your age level and the age level of your interests?" You should assume good faith. You should assume that I am not talking about "everybody" who disagrees with me (I generally don't hardly say anything about "everybody"). You should also have read the words I wrote and understood that I was not calling "anyone" a "pornographer".

Your behavior in this whole episode towards me has been pretty well reprehensible and rude, and as far as I can tell it's only because you disagree with me.

I'm done with it, you clearly are not a person who can engage in constructive or fruitful dialog with me on this topic.

-Kevin


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wiki 2 html converter

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Tim's started a script for this, it's in the maintenance directory in
> CVS. This is the development version of MediaWiki and is not directly
> usable yet on current page download dumps as the database format has
> changed.

I guess I'd better say a few words about it, since the topic keeps
coming up. The script produces quite nice HTML dumps, with HTML files
distributed between directories identified by the first two bytes. The
link URLs are rewritten appropriately. This is useful for English wikis
since it allows you to guess the URL, but it doesn't work so well for
languages with a different orthography. Doing it by character rather
than byte could be useful, however that would give a much broader tree,
especially for the CJK languages.

It's currently clumsy to use, requiring you to move HTMLDump.php from
skins/disabled/ to skins/, which unfortunately enables the skin in the
user interface. Any user who changed their skin to it would find that
there are no user preference links allowing them to get back (the
interface is greatly stripped down). We need to make a distinction
between valid skins and skins available for users.

It rewrites stylesheet and image URLs to relative URLs in hard-coded
paths (../../../images and ../../../skins). This needs to be made more
flexible. It doesn't currently rewrite URLs for images from commons, or
provide a way to package these images.

So it's a start, but there's still plenty of things to do. Luckily,
porting the parser to a different language isn't one of them. I'm not
working on it at the moment, so I won't mind if someone picks it up
where I left off.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: foundation-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 12

body:
>I think I can confidently say that Florence's talk was the best received and
>the most relevant to the audience, at the end of the day. She's an excellent
>speaker, by the way.
>
>
I can second this.  Anthere is amazing.  In Holland, Angela and I -- who
had far more experience talking about
Wikipedia, especially having spent the entire previous week giving
delightful (*g*) presentations at the BBC -- did
a fine job,  but Anthere really captivated the audience (well, me at
least, but I think others would agree).

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Conflict between two Wikipedias

body:
I have no firm opinion about this matter.

However, I wanted to drop a short note here to thank Mark for his
report, and for his tireless work
in minor language Wikipedias.  Let's speak plainly here: Mark has
annoyed a lot of people at various
times, including me, but continues to study and keep on top of what is
going on in smaller language Wikipedias,
and I for one really appreciate his work.

--Jimbo


from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rights

body:
On Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:21 PM, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Could my right to block and deblock people be removed without removing
> the possibility to use sysop rollback?
>
> Andre Engels

Not right now. It's planned for 1.5, however.

This is something that I'm personally quite keen on.

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


from_name: Zoney

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On 4/13/05, Snowspinner <Snowspinner at mail.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Wikipedia is not censored for minors. However, we tend to pick the best
> image for a situation. In the case of [[Clitoris]], there's a very
> strong case for this involving, well, the clitoris. In the case of
> [[autofellatio]] there's a good case.
>
> I'm not convinced that a screen capture from Titanic is the best image
> for [[Kate Winslet]] - for one thing, Leonardo DiCaprio is in that
> shot. Then again, the picture is in [[Titanic (1997 movie)]], not in
> [[Kate Winslet]]. And there I think the picture is considerably more
> reasonable - it is a major scene in the film.
>
> What is neither reasonable nor helpful is when these discussions turn
> into endless referendums on boobies. The fact that Wikipedia will
> contain boobies, as well as other naughty bits, is pretty much evident.
> The general and philosophical polemics are not helpful. The relevant
> question and discussion is whether the image is the best choice FOR A
> GIVEN ARTICLE. And that discussion, surely, is better suited to, oh,
> say, the article talk page than to the mailing list.
>
> Really. We don't need to come running here every time we see a nipple.
>
> OMG NIPPLE!
>
> -Snowspinner
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

Really, one does have to ask though - why has this screen capture in
particular been chosen to adore [[Titanic (1997 movie)]]? I suggest to
anyone who thinks that it is just a coincidence, that they need a
reality check.

In fairness, would a screengrab of the actual ship from the movie not
be more appropriate? (Then again, considering the plot... :-)

I do just think that in this specific instance (bigger pictures
aside), it is unnecessary to have an image which infringes on some
readers' sensitivities. Why cause offence even to a minority when it
is trivial to avoid doing so without comprimising the article (or
perhaps even improving it)?

It does seem fairly immature to choose that one screenshot for the
article about the whole movie.

Zoney
--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

body:
Recently I have had a deluge of junkmail, and I have a pretty good idea
who it is. One of emails (below), from LeadFactory.com, included the IP
address of the person who subscribed me.

I had a hunch, considering, one, a lot of it is right-wing U.S. and
Israeli email (of which related articles I've been editing lately) and,
two, it's the first junkmail I've ever received at this address. So I
plugged the address into Wikipedia and whatta ya know, a probable sock
puppet who has been especially abusive to me recently:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:
Contributions&target=155.84.57.253

You might also like to check out some of the sock puppet's responses to
requests to stop vandalism and 3RR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:155.84.57.253

I also did a geographic trace on the IP and they're from Houston Texas.

Can this IP address be permanently banned or something? Is there anyone
who can check the address against other usernames?

Christiaan

> 	From: 	  reply at LeadFactory.com
> 	Subject: 	Welcome to LeadFactory! (1113341886.13.28781)
> 	Date: 	12 April 2005 10:38:06 pm BST
> 	To: 	  christiaan at last-straw.net
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from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Miss Winslet's seminudity

body:
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture
> --- Tom Haws <hawstom at sprintmail.com> wrote:
>> Some of you may
>> be surprised, but most of you will sympathize with
>> the idea that I find
>> the mere subject line of the current thread to be
>> embarrassing and
>> discouraging to my participation.
>
> So am I.  Embarrassed that any adult human being feels
> that one bare breast is somehow nudity.

Miss Winslet's character, Rose, does, after all say something to the
effect that posing for Jack was the most erotic thing she had ever
done.

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
> David 'DJ' Hedley <spyders at btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Believe it or not, we have good reasons to look things up while at
>>> work, including articles about people.  If any biographical article
>>> can have a nude of that person, however, we won't be using Wikipedia
>>> to do so.

As an aside, it's worth reflecting on the world we live in when this is
a problem.

Christiaan
In hope of a democratic economy


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Rights

body:
Could my right to block and deblock people be removed without removing
the possibility to use sysop rollback?

Andre Engels


subject: [Wikitech-l] Rights


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 21, Issue 44

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

>Me neither. Why can't we have both?
>
><snip>
>
I think we do :)

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Milos Rancic

subject: [Wikitech-l] Language conversion

body:
On 4/13/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> While I recognize that there are long established traditions favouring
> the two script approach to Serbian, I think that the ekavian/iyekavian
> distinction is going too far.  It makes the idea of a single Serbian
> language a joke, and shows the language as incapable of establishing
> standards.  If the variants in Republika Srpska and Montenegro insist on
> their own varieties it turns the whole idea of Serbian nationalism into
> a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta.

Hehehe. I understand that situation with Serbian standard variants is
funny to others, but let me explain :)

Father of modern Serbian standard language is Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic.
He was iyekavian by origin. He was borned at iyekavian part of western
Serbia. (Today, that part of Serbia is ekavian because of
Belgrade-oriented centralization of Serbia.)

But, the center of Serbian culture was not in Serbia (which became
independent at the first half of 19th century). It was in Vojvodina,
which was the part of Austro-Hungary empire. And, people from
Vojvodina, but from Belgrade, too, was (and are) speaking ekavian.

One more but: Serbs from Montenegro, eastern Herzegovina and Bosnia
was (and are) iyekavian.

So, before Djuro Danicic (Vuk's student) introduced new Latin alphabet
(at the first time completely adopted by Croats, today only letter ?/?
is from original Danicic's alphabet), Vuk and Corat Ljudevit Gaj
introduced "two variants of the same language". And, that language was
called with different names: "Croatian or Serbian", "Serbian or
Croatian", "Serbo-Croatian" and "Croato-Serbian". As centralistic
communits system didn't want to devide language to "Croatian" and
"Serbian", they devided language just into iyekavian and ekavian. So,
Serbs from Bosnia, Herzegovina and Montenegro was speaking the same
variant of language with Croats, while Serbs from Serbia was speaking
another variant. Today, standards are Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian.

When Former Yugoslavia was destroyed, as well as standard
Serbo-Croatian language, Croats and Bosniaks had clear situation: The
big majority of Croats and Bosniaks are iyekavian. However, Serbs
didn't have that situation: some Serbs are ekavian and some Serbs are
iyekavian.

During the war in Bosnia, there were one linguistic experiment
(supported by low, military and police), which was introduced by
Radovan Karadzic regime: Standard language became ekavian. All of
radio, television, newspapers and state authorities was forced to
write in ekavian. (In very polite words, I think that it was not good
idea.)

Today, organization which takes care about Serbian standard is
"Council for Standardization of Serbian Language", which has delegates
from academic and government institution from Serbia, Republic of
Srpska and Montenegro. And, the only part of Serbian language politics
which has almost concensus is that Serbian language has two standards:
ekavian and iyekavian. Alphabets are the problem in politics,
standards are not.

Children, tinagers and students from Republic of Srpska and Montenegro
are learning iyekavian variant and differences in texts are bigger
then in two main variants of English language. You can have a lot of
articles in English without diferences like "kilometer-kilometre" or
such. But, it is probabbly that you will find if the text is iyekavian
or ekavian in the first sentence of article. However, there are no
misunderstandings between iyekavian and ekavian speaker.

As I see, implementation of ekavian/iyekavian is more easy then
implementation of transliteration between Cyrillic and Latin alphabet
and vice versa. And I am sure that you can keep variants as one text
inside of database.

Also, I don't care about Serbian nationalism. I care about live
attributes of Serbian culture. And Wikipedia is the place which can
implement them. If people here have good will.


from_name: Sj

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture

body:
On 4/13/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> Tom Haws said:
> > I suggest that
> > many,  many others like me who have opinions that there is something
> > wrong with  including images like this also have various reasons to be
> > discouraged  from participating in debates about the same images.  I am
> > very sorry  that we are absent from such debates, but it just happens
> > that they are  framed in ways and carried on in places that discourage
> > our active  participation.

Tom, I often see debates about sensitive issues which suffer from
precisely this dilemma.  There was a long debate about pedophilia, for
instance, which the vast majority of contributors were unwilling to
get involved with.  And then there have been many different
discussions of where and how pornography, nudity, and violence should
be presented in Wikipedia.

> Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.

Tony, Wittgenstein would be embarrassed to see you using that quote in
this context.  One of the reasons this debate on the mailing list is
important is that when it comes to propriety, openness, censorship,
obscenity, etc; discussions are often carried on in the context of a
topic, article, or image whose very title and context prevent many
people from engaging in it.   "Titanic" is a much more general topic,
and I hope we can widen the participants in this iteration of the
debate.

SJ


from_name: Angela

subject: [WikiEN-l] Non-spam domain found in spam list

body:
On 4/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:

> Please can someone remove that domain from the spamlist? The domain in
> question is http://www.niimm.spb.su/ and I had to remove it to have my
> edit go through:

This is now removed. Further suggestions for additions or removals can
be made at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Spam_blacklist

Angela.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Lucene search

body:
The Lucene search is now active on the following wikis:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/
* http://eo.wikipedia.org/
* http://ru.wikipedia.org/
* http://meta.wikimedia.org/

And when the index is done building, also:
* http://de.wikipedia.org/

The choice of initial languages is driven by availability; English,
German, and Russian word-stem normalizers are included in the main
Lucene package and I wrote a quickie Esperanto one as a test since I was
familiar with the language. There are a number of other analyzers
available in contribs packages which I'll be setting up over the next
couple days, as well as indexing the rest of the wikis on the supported
languages.

At the moment the indexes aren't being automatically updated with
changed pages, but that should be a relatively straightforward addition
which is also coming soon.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Nice one Puddl.

I was using http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm?GetLocation

Christiaan

On 13 Apr 2005, at 10:24 pm, Puddl Duk wrote:

> On 4/13/05, Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net> wrote:
>> Recently I have had a deluge of junkmail, and I have a pretty good
>> idea
>> who it is. One of emails (below), from LeadFactory.com, included the
>> IP
>> address of the person who subscribed me.
>>
>> I had a hunch, considering, one, a lot of it is right-wing U.S. and
>> Israeli email (of which related articles I've been editing lately)
>> and,
>> two, it's the first junkmail I've ever received at this address. So I
>> plugged the address into Wikipedia and whatta ya know, a probable sock
>> puppet who has been especially abusive to me recently:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:
>> Contributions&target=155.84.57.253
>>
>> You might also like to check out some of the sock puppet's responses
>> to
>> requests to stop vandalism and 3RR:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:155.84.57.253
>>
>> I also did a geographic trace on the IP and they're from Houston
>> Texas.
>>
>> Can this IP address be permanently banned or something? Is there
>> anyone
>> who can check the address against other usernames?
>>
>> Christiaan
>
> I get a different loaction for this ip;
> http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=155.84.57.253
>
> http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=155.84.57.253&email=on
>
> (US Army Corps of Engineers?, Am I doing this wrong.)
>
> Anyway, maybe an email to the address in the second link showing what
> this person is doing during company time might have some effect.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] [[m:CheckUser]]

body:
Ben Brockert (ben at mepotelco.net) [050413 13:50]:
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 06:35  PM, David Gerard wrote:

> >Special:CheckUser is the IP-to-username checker Tim Starling
> >implemented
> >for en:. Those able to use it are him and me, and I hardly dare touch
> >the
> >thing :-)

> YA-feature request: how about making it more private for the users?
> Instead of the utility taking one username and giving IP addresses,
> have it take two usernames and have it say whether or not they are the
> same IP? Or the same /24, to catch the dialup users. I don't think all
> sysops should have access to all user's IPs (I say that as a sysop, not
> as a tinfoil'd user), but I also think kicking sockpuppets should occur
> well before arbitration.

The trouble is the process requires considerable understanding of what's
actually going on and what is and isn't a match, and that can't be
automated. Clue cannot be Taylorised.

Basically, you have to either trust the person with the ability to see the
numbers, or not.

- d.