from_name: steven l. rubenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] what is a sysop?

body:
This is a reasonable concern.  I remember some time ago -- several months
or a year -- when there was an edit war on a particular page and an
administrator joined in with a message like this: "What's the trouble
here?  I am a sysop -- let's sort this out."  Indeed, this was a very
inappropriate use of the position.  However, a number of other sysops
pretty quickly chastised the person in question for projecting power in
this way.

I think the only reasonable solution to this problem -- and my response to
your concern -- is that sysops should act as "police" in one particular
regard: we have a responsibility to police ourselves against this kind of
abuse of power.

New contributors need to learn all sorts of stuff when they come to
wikipedia -- from the ~~~ trick to the sometimes subtle NPOV policy.  I
think their learning what a sysop is and isn't is just one more of those
things.

Steve

At 02:34 PM 5/23/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>--- "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste at ohiou.edu> wrote:
> > Let's not get bogged down in semantics.  This may be
> > a case where an
> > analogy to sysop is neither needed nor helpful.
> > After all, judges under
> > certain circumstances have a lot of power, and
> > police often listen to
> > different sides in a dispute, act as mediators, and
> > are themselves
> > policed.  If we continue on this track we may end up
> > having a very
> > interesting and informative conversation about the
> > differences between
> > police, judges, and I would then add to the mix
> > constables.  But if we are
> > having a discussion as sysop, I have three comments.
> >
> > 1) I never sought out the position of sysop but
> > given that it implied a
> > certain amount of trust by a segment of the
> > community I didn't feel I could
> > turn it down.  When I first saw my new screen, with
> > all the powers suddenly
> > at my disposal, I really felt overwhelmed, almost
> > dizzy.  Of course my
> > first act was to abuse the power -- although I was
> > the only victim of that
> > abuse.  I have recently had an experience where I
> > have been sorely tempted
> > to put a block on a page and ban a user.  Obviously
> > I did not.  But -- and
> > I realize this may be of little interest to most of
> > you -- so far I see
> > being a sysop as a sort of zen exercise in accepting
> > and renouncing power.
> >
> > 2) But I have also deleted a couple of pages, and I
> > know some others have
> > been very active in this.  I wanted to ban one user
> > with what I thought was
> > good cause, and someone else did it the next day.
> > Since virtually everyone
> > in the community saw that person as a pest more than
> > as a member of the
> > community, I'd say -- if we really must have an
> > analogy -- I'd compare
> > sysop to house-cleaner.
> >
> > 3) Whether sysop is a mop or a cop, either way I see
> > the role as being an
> > agent of the community.  If I understand the deal
> > right now, there is
> > virtually nothing a sysop can do that cannot be
> > undone by another
> > administrator; it seems to me that virtually all
> > sysops, if they ever act,
> > do so when they have a sense from the community.
> >
> > Anyway, aside from my periodic zen moments, it does
> > seem to me that the job
> > is mostly about tidying up.  It seems to me that
> > anyone can do this on a
> > limited basis (by editing -- just like we don't
> > expect the maid or
> > custodian to do all cleaning), and that the other
> > tasks (e.g. cultivating
> > NPOV) really are for the whole community, sysop or
> > not.
> >
> > Steve
>
>Yeah, I guess that makes more sense than an anology.
>But I just realised that sysops have another, rarely
>used power. Sysops have power just from their name
>"sysop". If a sysop tells a bunch of non-sysops
>something, and they haven't heard the type of
>conversation on the mailing list (ie don't know that
>sysops aren't this exclusive band of 5 people who go
>around fixing the server and banning people), they'd
>probably listen to you more than a non-sysop. I don't
>think this power is actually used by anyone other than
>jimbo, though.
>--LittleDan
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
>http://search.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.478 / Virus Database: 275 - Release Date: 5/6/2003

Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Helga

body:
On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 04:02:08AM -0600, Fred Bauder wrote:
> > Kurt Jansson <jansson at gmx.net> writes:
> >
> >> Helga is activ again:
> >> http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=66.4
> >> 7.62.78
> >> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Spezial:Contributions&target=66.47
> >> .62.78
> >
> > One cannot "ban" a user resp. the IP address in aeternum.
> >
> >> Has her banning been lifted (right word?)?
> >
> > Now now tell what's wrong the contributions.  There is (new) info in the
> > articles submitted by 66.47.62.78, feel free to edit them.
>
> If it is Helga (unless she's changed) she'll take an archaic German
> Nationalist view that focuses on the Eastern territories that were lost and
> stick like a tick to that viewpoint. Modifying any of her articles will set
> off an edit war.

Yes, it is her. Yes, it is still the Eastern territories. Yes, she still insists
on calling every city by its German name.

AFAIK her ban has not been lifted. She should have applied to Jimbo prior to
coming back.

	JeLuF


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Christian List

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Intlwiki-l] Sort order

body:
> At some point in the near future I'll be adding in a per-language sort
> order adjustment, so that various sorted lists should turn out in more
> or less correct order for a change. :)
>
> I'd appreciate pointers to descriptions of various languages' sorting
> requirements so I can try to get them right.

I have recently made a little PHP script that sort correctly in danish.
You can find the result here: http://www.wikipedia.dk/wiki/sortering.php
The code snippet below does the actual sorting, maybe it can give you some
inspiration on how to do it.
The key functions here is strtr() which replaces all the weird characters
with the correct characters for sorting in danish, and usort() which does
the actual sorting.

<?
function cmp ($a, $b)
{
 $compa = strtr($a,

"SOZsozY??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????ABCDEF
GHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ",

"sozsozyyuaaaaa??ceeeeiiiidnooooo?uuuuysaaaaa??ceeeeiiiionooooo?uuuuyyabcdef
ghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz");
 $compb = strtr($b,

"SOZsozY??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????ABCDEF
GHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ",

"sozsozyyuaaaaa??ceeeeiiiidnooooo?uuuuysaaaaa??ceeeeiiiionooooo?uuuuyyabcdef
ghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz");
 for ($i=0 ; $i<strlen($compa) ; $i++)
 {
  if (strlen($compb)==$i)
  {
   if ($_POST["Orden"]=="Stigende")
   {
    return -1;
   }
   else
   {
    return 1;
   }
  }

  if ($compa{$i} > $compb{$i})
  {
   if ($_POST["Orden"]=="Stigende")
   {
    return 1;
   }
   else
   {
    return -1;
   }
  }
  else if ($compa{$i} < $compb{$i})
  {
   if ($_POST["Orden"]=="Stigende")
   {
    return -1;
   }
   else
   {
    return 1;
   }
  }
 }
 return 0;
}

$tekst = $_POST["foo"];
$myarray = explode("\n",$tekst );
usort($myarray, "cmp");
$tekst = implode("\n",$myarray);
print $tekst;

?>

Regards
Christian

BTW: I have bought wikipedia.dk and made it redirect to da.wikipedia.org,
and it will stay that way untill the folks at da.wikipedia.org might decide
otherwise. I will also place little scripts like this danish sorting script
on http://www.wikipedia.dk/wiki/sortering.php


subject: [Wikitech-l] Search dead (searchindex.MYI) [german]

body:
> Je ?a?do 22 Majo 2003 22:00, Thomas Corell skribis:
> > Seach results in the following error:
> >
> >   "1016: Can't open file: 'searchindex.MYI'. (errno: 145)"
>
> Hmm, again... Okay, I'll do the same index rebuild that I did for the
> Japanese wiki:
>   REPAIR TABLE searchindex
>   ALTER TABLE searchindex type=myisam;
> (That'll chug away for a few minutes.)
>
> If this happens again in the future, let me know. Hopefully this'll fix
> it.

Danish and Swedish has the same problem, could you please fix those also?

Christian List


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Helga

references:
<shiss1z0b8.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<BAF49F40.24CF%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<20030524110938.GN5102@jeluf.mine.nu>

body:
Jens Frank <JeLuF at gmx.de> writes:

> Yes, it is her. Yes, it is still the Eastern territories. Yes, she
> still insists on calling every city by its German name.

In de.wikipedia.org?  In the German version the German name are not
wrong, though.  Okay, "K?nigsberg" is arguable, but there are residents
(Russian!) in Kaliningrad who want to have back the "old" name.  Read
"Die Zeit", last week.  "Die Zeit" is a trustworthy German newspaper.

Things aren't that easy as they might look at the first glance.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |    _-\_<,
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home)               |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Logged-out edits marked as users bug -- fixed?

body:
Okay, I *think* it's fixed. In CVS, installed on test and en wikis.

I added a call to $this->loadDefaults(); if the password check fails in
User::loadFromSession(). As it was, it was clearing the user ID to
zero, but not anything else -- so user name, newtalk status, etc was
still set as for the user.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Optimizing default prefs

body:
On Fri, 23 May 2003 03:04:06 -0700, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
gave utterance to the following:

> Erik Moeller wrote:
>> Regarding the skins, I think Cologne Blue *could* become the standard
>> with
>> some design fixes, but we should stick with Standard for now.
>
> IMO Colonge Blue is nearly as bad as Nostalgia as far as usability is
> concerned. The emphasis of that design seems to be concentrated on making
> things look pretty and not on making things easy to use or find.
>
> It would probably be better to just add a bit of color to our logo and
> the Standard Header.
>
Or implementing my proposal (in cvs) of storing in the user database the
URL of the user's own wikipedia stylesheet. I would keep mine on my
webserver, saving W the cost of ever serving me a stylesheet.
--
Richard Grevers
If teenagers dress to express individuality why do they all look alike?


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Countering the vandals who attack users (not just pages)

body:
On Fri, 23 May 2003 07:31:45 -0700, Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> gave
utterance to the following:

> Erik Moeller wrote:
>> 2) Having talk pages handle comments thread-style automatically while
>> retaining wiki-form would be desirable.
>
> Can you explain what you mean by this?  What do you mean by "retaining
> wiki-form"?
>
> One thing that I like about the current talk pages is that they are
> wiki pages, so that they can be refactored from time to time.  It is
> true that we don't really do much refactoring, and that it's a huge
> social taboo to edit other people's comments during a discussion, but
> there's something important, I think, about the mutual trust that's
> built up when we *can* screw with each other's remarks, but *don't*.
>
In my case I leave all longer talk pages alone because I can never follow
who said what adequately.
--
Richard Grevers
If teenagers dress to express individuality why do they all look alike?


list: wikien-l

from_name: John Knouse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
I suddenly have no items on my watchlist.  What gives?

--
John Knouse
jaknouse at frognet.net


subject: [Wikitech-l] Bug in Link?

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Je Sabato 24 Majo 2003 16:17, Thomas Corell skribis:
> Klicking the Link I got a 404 HTTP Error, Mozilla displaying:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film%2FSchauspielerinnenF
>                                   ^^^
> entering http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film/SchauspielerinnenF
> manually everything works fine.

It appears that Apache rejects URIs with %2F in the path component:
http://www.apacheweek.com/issues/02-11-08

(Wouldn't a 400 'Bad Request' be a better return code than 404 'Not
Found'? Bah.)

I've tweaked SpecialAsksql to use the same function everything else does
to generate local page URLs, so it should put out clickable urls now.
While I was in there, I also fixed it to use the namespace if the query
results include a namespace field.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #378 - 4 msgs

body:
It turns out that, though Wikipedia said I was logged in, it
said I wasn't logged in, and when I re-logged in, I got my
watchlist back.  Strange.

--
John Knouse
jaknouse at frognet.net


from_name: Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Error uploading files on the Polish Wikipedia

body:
On 24-05-2003, Brion Vibber wrote thusly :
> Je Sabato 24 Majo 2003 01:24, Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz skribis:
> > wys?ane przez funkcj? "SearchUpdate::doUpdate". MySQL zg?osi? b??d
> > "1016: Can't open file: 'searchindex.MYI'. (errno: 145)".
>
> Should be fixed now.
>
> > Additionally it produces invalid filenames in the system.
>
> Can I get some more details on this? Which filenames, invalid how?

23-05-2003
* (r??n) (hist) . .N Grafika:; 22:08 . . Kpjas (Dyskusja) (Filipiny godlo)

following the Grafika link gives an error msg.

Regards,
Kpjas.


from_name: Julie Kemp

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jacques Delson and Helga-ism

body:
HI all - I've come out of lurk mode for a bit.  As some of you may have
noticed, there's a bit of French nationalist (no offense to Anthere or
any other sensible contributor meant) irredentism on the site - has been
for a while.  There have been issues on Clovis I (someone put up a coin
with a portrait of Clovis that said, "Clovis Ier, Roy de  France" as
proof that this 5th century Frank was a king of France.  Trouble is,
heading in a language (reasonable modern French) is one of a couple
proofs that the coin was much later - proof that the French consider
Clovis a French king, but not proof that he  *was*.  Lots of arguments
on the talk pages - similar to those on the list of French Monarchs.
Every time I think it's safe to go back in the water . Could somebody
please have a look?  I wrote a somewhat lengthy (and in need of editing)
intro that explains the controversy, but it has not been well-received
by M. Delson.  Thanks -- Jules
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Um ... Helga is back and at it again  check out edits under her old IP address

body:
It's 66.47.62.78.  Lots of the same old stuff.  Cheers.  Julie
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Rollback fix (and counters)

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Now I know we're supposed to be in feature freeze, but I consider this a
bug fix as it's been damn annoying. I've just checked in changes to
Article.php, SpecialContributions.php, and Language.php to add a
last-user-name check to the rollback link. If when the rollback is
activated, the last editor on that page is someone other than it was
when the link was generated, it will throw an error message instead of
blindly reverting -- usually putting the vandalism back on top. :)

This is in CVS and on test.wikipedia.org; please help shake it out a bit
more before putting it live.

I've also taken the $wgDisableCounters check out of SiteStatsUpdate.php,
since that had broken the article count. And, the article count should
now be running on the agreed-upon link-count instead of ugly old
comma-count (this change has been in the code for a while, but is only
now live).

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Title characters

body:
"Lee Daniel Crocker" <lee at piclab.com> wrote in
message news:20030523184628.GA22556 at piclab.com...

...

> Anyone have other ideas/suggestions?

Here's one that's almost unrelated, but your post has reminded me of it.
We've had a number of requests for titles with an initial lowercase letter.
I would like to see a checkbox next to "Watch this article" on the edit
page, labelled "Title starts with lowercase letter". Clicking on "save" with
this checked would set a flag in the cur table, instructing
getPrefixedText() to set the initial letter to lowercase. So [[IMac]] and
[[iMac]] still go to the same place, but when the software has to display
the title, it comes out as [[iMac]].

Alternately you could just have a link in the sidebar, like for page
protection -- but please make sure the change is registered in RC.

-- Tim Starling.


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bug in Link?

body:
Hi,

I done an easy SQL-Query in german Wikipedia:

select cur_title,cur_text from cur where cur_namespace=0 and
cur_is_redirect=0 and length(cur_text) < 90 order by cur_title

which returns some articles, one of them: "Film/SchauspielerinnenF" linked
to: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film/SchauspielerinnenF

Klicking the Link I got a 404 HTTP Error, Mozilla displaying:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film%2FSchauspielerinnenF
                                  ^^^
entering http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film/SchauspielerinnenF manually
everything works fine.

Any ideas?

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikipedia-l] "watch new and modified articles"->"watch new articles"

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 01:44, Erik Moeller skribis:
> I intend to change the "watch new and modified articles" user
> preference to "watch new articles". Most people seem to make too many
> minor edits to watch all articles, but in most cases you want to keep
> an eye on the articles you start. If there are no objections, I will
> implement this change.

I object strenuously. I want to keep an eye on most articles I've
touched, and the present option serves me very well.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 02:37, Erik Moeller skribis:
(proposed additional watchlist munging options)
> | .. in the following namespaces:              |
> | [x] Articles, meta, images, user pages       |
> | [x] Discussion pages                         |
...
> | Watchlist entries will expire after          |
> | [0  ] days in the article namespaces         |
> | [7  ] days in the discussion namespaces      |

Oh ugh.

How do you plan on making that work cleanly? Pages in plain & talk
spaces are treated as common bundles: you can't watch one and not the
other. This is very deliberate, in order to make sure that new talk
discussion will show up in your watchlist for pages you're watching
without any intervention on your part, even if the talk page did not
previously exist. And so changes to a page you're discussing will
automatically show up in your watchlist, no with no intervention on
your part. You can't separate them, because that would be to defeat the
purpose of talk pages.

The idea that pages should "expire" from my watchlist strikes me as,
well, not at all desirable. My browser already shows me links to pages
I've visited in the past few days, and my brain remembers the pages I'm
working with right now; I want a watchlist to keep track of things
long-term. I want it to show up that article I created two years ago
that someone has just added to (or vandalized), or that vaguely
interesting article i clicked 'watch' on last August that has suddenly
blossomed and now I ought to check it out.

Should it be easier to take things off the watchlist? Yes, definitely.
Should things expire automatically? No, no, no, please no.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Bug in Link?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> It appears that Apache rejects URIs with %2F in the path component:
> http://www.apacheweek.com/issues/02-11-08
> (Wouldn't a 400 'Bad Request' be a better return code than 404 'Not
> Found'? Bah.)
Well, as I see it, Apache thought he's doing the right thing, to convert /
to %2F. Than he looked for the File and did not found it -- 404. And, the
given URI was not bad. Only Apache has a bug in it's handling. No Reason
for a 400.
>
> I've tweaked SpecialAsksql to use the same function everything else does
> to generate local page URLs, so it should put out clickable urls now.
> While I was in there, I also fixed it to use the namespace if the query
> results include a namespace field.

Thank you for fixing it so quick.

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Where should /temp pages go?

body:
I have only seen these on en: so far, but other wikis may also have
encountered them -- "/temp" pages which are used to develop a new version
of an article. These are frequently generated in the article namespace,
and often left there to linger forever by those who created them. Often
deletion is problematic because their current status is unclear -- how
much time should someone be given to work on a temp page?

Having these in the article namespace exposes them to standard searches,
uses our article color etc. Subpages are also not supported for the
article namespace, so that backlinks to the main article are not
generated. I see two alternatives:

- Move them to a [[User:foo/bar]] subpage of the user who created them
- Move them to [[Talk:article/temp]] of the article's talk page.

There may be the option of a "Temp:" namespace, but that would probably
fill up with nonsense too quickly.

What do you think? I think I prefer the Talk: option and will probably
start moving this stuff unless there are objections. IMHO keeping them
where they are right now is not an option for a serious encyclopedia.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> What do you think? I think I prefer the Talk: option and will probably
> start moving this stuff unless there are objections. IMHO keeping them
> where they are right now is not an option for a serious encyclopedia.

I think there's only one reason to be placed in the article-namespace, e.g.
  if someon plans a new mainpage design, and you will get rid of the wrong
backgroudcolor. For everything else User oder Wikipedia namepace should be
appropriate.

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jacques Delson and Helga-ism

body:
--- Julie Kemp <juleskemp at yahoo.com> wrote:
> HI all - I've come out of lurk mode for a bit.  As
> some of you may have
> noticed, there's a bit of French nationalist (no
> offense to Anthere or
> any other sensible contributor meant) irredentism on
> the site - has been
> for a while.  There have been issues on Clovis I
> (someone put up a coin
> with a portrait of Clovis that said, "Clovis Ier,
> Roy de  France" as
> proof that this 5th century Frank was a king of
> France.  Trouble is,
> heading in a language (reasonable modern French) is
> one of a couple
> proofs that the coin was much later - proof that the
> French consider
> Clovis a French king, but not proof that he  *was*.
> Lots of arguments
> on the talk pages - similar to those on the list of
> French Monarchs.
> Every time I think it's safe to go back in the water
> . Could somebody
> please have a look?  I wrote a somewhat lengthy (and
> in need of editing)
> intro that explains the controversy, but it has not
> been well-received
> by M. Delson.  Thanks -- Jules

He ! We indeed consider he was the first king of
France when he was made christian by Saint R?mi (even
though we usually refer to him as King of the franks
...). He was the one who started the history of
France, and we are tought he was chosen by the tribe
of franks to be king, and gave its name to our
country. But, what do we know ? It is just what we
learn in school :-) With no proof he was indeed
considered a king at that time.
Another future info fork between the french and the
english wiki :-)
Happy you are back.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


body:
On 24-05-2003, Brion Vibber wrote thusly :
> Je Sabato 24 Majo 2003 11:06, Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz skribis:
> > On 24-05-2003, Brion Vibber wrote thusly :
> > > Je Sabato 24 Majo 2003 01:24, Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz skribis:
> > > > wys?ane przez funkcj? "SearchUpdate::doUpdate". MySQL zg?osi?
> > > > b??d "1016: Can't open file: 'searchindex.MYI'. (errno: 145)".
> > >
> > > Should be fixed now.
> > >
> > > > Additionally it produces invalid filenames in the system.
> > >
> > > Can I get some more details on this? Which filenames, invalid how?
> >
> > 23-05-2003
> > * (r??n) (hist) . .N Grafika:; 22:08 . . Kpjas (Dyskusja) (Filipiny
> > godlo)
> >
> > following the Grafika link gives an error msg.
>
> Is it still doing that or were those only being created while the
> searchindex table was broken?
It looks to be OK now. It was the first one I had noticed. Probably the one
one because next uploads gave the above-mentioned error msg but didn't
produce corrupt filenames, I think.

Regards,
Kpjas.


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Title characters

body:
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 12:20:12AM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
>
> "Lee Daniel Crocker" <lee at piclab.com> wrote in
> message news:20030523184628.GA22556 at piclab.com...
>
> ...
>
> > Anyone have other ideas/suggestions?
>
> Here's one that's almost unrelated, but your post has reminded me of it.
> We've had a number of requests for titles with an initial lowercase letter.
> I would like to see a checkbox next to "Watch this article" on the edit
> page, labelled "Title starts with lowercase letter". Clicking on "save" with
> this checked would set a flag in the cur table, instructing
> getPrefixedText() to set the initial letter to lowercase. So [[IMac]] and
> [[iMac]] still go to the same place, but when the software has to display
> the title, it comes out as [[iMac]].
>
> Alternately you could just have a link in the sidebar, like for page
> protection -- but please make sure the change is registered in RC.

IMHO there is no sense to have 2 articles that differ only by capitalization -
there should be some "canonical" form, but all links, no matter what
capitalization they have, should go to the same article.

That would help a lot with computer stuff.


body:
Brion-
> Now I know we're supposed to be in feature freeze, but I consider this a
> bug fix as it's been damn annoying. I've just checked in changes to
> Article.php, SpecialContributions.php, and Language.php to add a
> last-user-name check to the rollback link. If when the rollback is
> activated, the last editor on that page is someone other than it was
> when the link was generated, it will throw an error message instead of
> blindly reverting -- usually putting the vandalism back on top. :)

Thanks, Brion -- I had this in my todo list but put it on hold after the
freeze. Seems to work fine on test.wiki. I have updated the error messages
somewhat -- please take a look. Also, the "edit comment was .." message is
no longer shown when there was no edit comment.

Regards,
Erik


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 06:33, Erik Moeller skribis:
> > I think a warning that the page that you are going to delete has
> > been edited since you read it might be useful.
>
> Hmm. We could pass a revision timestamp to the delete function as an
> argument. If the current revision is newer, a warning could be
> displayed. Brion, what do you think?

Yes, that was my evil plan, but I hadn't got 'round to it.

(I put the user, rather than timestamp, on rollback since rollback works
a little funny; additional edits by the same vandal are ok to roll
back.)

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Jacques Delson and Helga-ism

body:
Anthere said:

He ! We indeed consider he was the first king of
France when he was made Christian by Saint R?mi (even
though we usually refer to him as King of the franks
...). He was the one who started the history of
France, and we are tought he was chosen by the tribe
of franks to be king, and gave its name to our
country. But, what do we know ? It is just what we
learn in school :-) With no proof he was indeed
considered a king at that time.
Another future info fork between the french and the
english wiki :-)

I respond:
I think this is the root of the problem -- What's in textbooks is not
always accurate!  I don't know how it's done in France, but I think it's
similar everywhere in that much is decided by committee.  If you
subscribe to some of the H-net mailing lists, like I do, or belong to
the American Historical Association, you know how bad it can be.  Here,
the states of Texas and California have a lot of influence on what is
included or omitted, because they buy a lot of textbooks.  In fact,
there are cases of textbooks being revised because Texas won't buy -- a
well-known example is a biology text that talked about evolution as
something that happened, rather than as a theory along with creationism.
I think it's not unlikely that many countries provide their children
with history that often does more to uphold a national mythos than
troublesome historical fact!

In the French case, what Anthere says, is kinda, sorta right ;-)  Clovis
was the first Orthodox Christian King of a consolidated Frankish kingdom
-- and the name France is derived from Francia, the Latin name for the
Frankish kingdom.  Where it gets funny is that Francia is also the root
for the German land of Franken ... or that (and here's where I find it
odd) the Carolingians are much later, yet both Germans and French people
consider Charlemagne "theirs."  SO what I've been trying to do is to
explain why the French school version isn't exactly wrong, but that it's
an over generalization -- maybe like remembering that Kozsiuszko
(spelling probably way wrong) and DeKalb were heroes in the American
Revolution and assuming that made them Americans.  BTW (pax to Erik), I
was at a conference in March and brought up this issue.  There were
scholars there from all over, and they all specialized in the period
between 300 and 800.  Not one of them, including the nice lady from the
Sorbonne, said that they would consider the Merovingians to be Kings of
France, or even French.

Back until I run screaming ;-)

Jules


body:
Hi,

I intend to change the "watch new and modified articles" user preference
to "watch new articles". Most people seem to make too many minor edits to
watch all articles, but in most cases you want to keep an eye on the
articles you start. If there are no objections, I will implement this
change.

(These could also be separate options, but we should try to avoid prefs
clutter.)

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

body:
--- John Knouse <jaknouse at frognet.net> wrote:
> It turns out that, though Wikipedia said I was
> logged in, it
> said I wasn't logged in, and when I re-logged in, I
> got my
> watchlist back.  Strange.
>
> --
> John Knouse
> jaknouse at frognet.net

That's probably from the bad proxy cache your ISP has.
It happens to me all of the time. Sometimes, when I'm
visiting pages, it keeps saying I have new messages.
Every time, I click on the link, but it just shows the
proxy-cached version of it with no new messages.
--LittleDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] No-FX

body:
No, I think it should be discussed.

If No-FX is making a new account to evade banning,
who's to say he won't do it again? He will. We need to
convince him that Wikipedia is not the place for him.

On a side note, if you stopped getting these vandals
so mad at you, they wouldn't keep vandalising your
userpage (as I understand, this has happened more than
once).
--LittleDan

--- Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote:
> No-FX is Michael, as is very apparent.  Michael has
> aleady been banned.  I don't see what needs to be
> discussed.
>
> Zoe
>
> --- "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste at ohiou.edu>
> wrote:
> > Given No-FX's most recent vandalization of Zoe's
> > user-page, I believe
> > he/she/it should be banned.  I guess this should
> be
> > discussed for a while,
> > but I vote for banning as soon as possible.
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > Steven L. Rubenstein
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Sociology and Anthropology
> > Bentley Annex
> > Ohio University
> > Athens, Ohio 45701
> > >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> > (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.478 / Virus Database: 275 - Release
> > Date: 5/6/2003
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] what is a sysop?

body:
--- "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste at ohiou.edu> wrote:
> This is a reasonable concern.  I remember some time
> ago -- several months
> or a year -- when there was an edit war on a
> particular page and an
> administrator joined in with a message like this:
> "What's the trouble
> here?  I am a sysop -- let's sort this out."
> Indeed, this was a very
> inappropriate use of the position.  However, a
> number of other sysops
> pretty quickly chastised the person in question for
> projecting power in
> this way.
>
> I think the only reasonable solution to this problem
> -- and my response to
> your concern -- is that sysops should act as
> "police" in one particular
> regard: we have a responsibility to police ourselves
> against this kind of
> abuse of power.
>
> New contributors need to learn all sorts of stuff
> when they come to
> wikipedia -- from the ~~~ trick to the sometimes
> subtle NPOV policy.  I
> think their learning what a sysop is and isn't is
> just one more of those
> things.
>
> Steven
I'm not saying intimidating non-sysops is a good
thing, I just think it is a potential use of power and
should not be ignored when discussing the power of
sysops. I still don't think that sysops should be
policemen. Something less violent. On cops (not to say
that those events aren't staged), they take drug
addicts, misrepresent the law to them ("if you tell me
where the drugs are now, you'll get a lesser
punishment" or something like that, when really
(correct me if I'm wrong, alex) he didn't turn himself
in and probably won't get any less punishment (there
was no plea bargain or anything like that)), and
arrest them, using excessive violence towards blacks
in particular. We don't want to be like that. We're
better than that.
--LittleDan
--LittleDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


body:
Brion-
> I object strenuously. I want to keep an eye on most articles I've
> touched, and the present option serves me very well.

OK, how about this:

 ----------------------------------------------
| Watchlist options                            |
|                                              |
| Watch articles by default:                   |
| ( ) No articles                              |
| ( ) Newly created articles                   |
| (*) New and modified articles                |
|                                              |
| .. in the following namespaces:              |
| [x] Articles, meta, images, user pages       |
| [x] Discussion pages                         |
|                                              |
| Watchlist entries will expire after          |
| [0  ] days in the article namespaces         |
| [7  ] days in the discussion namespaces      |
 ----------------------------------------------

This way, every aspect of watchlist behavior could be modified. Entries
which have expired would be expunged when the watchlist is loaded. This
would allow the watchlist to be effectively used to monitor conversations
you take part in, without requiring you to remove these from your
watchlist manually. Articles on your watchlist would have their expiry
date pushed forwad when they are edited.

Thoughts? I know: feature bloat. But especially for our jumbled
conversation system this could be very useful.

Regards,

Erik


body:
--- Julie Kemp <juleskemp at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anthere said:
>
> He ! We indeed consider he was the first king of
> France when he was made Christian by Saint R?mi
> (even
> though we usually refer to him as King of the franks
> ...). He was the one who started the history of
> France, and we are tought he was chosen by the tribe
> of franks to be king, and gave its name to our
> country. But, what do we know ? It is just what we
> learn in school :-) With no proof he was indeed
> considered a king at that time.
> Another future info fork between the french and the
> english wiki :-)
>
>
> I respond:
> I think this is the root of the problem -- What's in
> textbooks is not
> always accurate!  I don't know how it's done in
> France, but I think it's
> similar everywhere in that much is decided by
> committee.  If you
> subscribe to some of the H-net mailing lists, like I
> do, or belong to
> the American Historical Association, you know how
> bad it can be.  Here,
> the states of Texas and California have a lot of
> influence on what is
> included or omitted, because they buy a lot of
> textbooks.  In fact,
> there are cases of textbooks being revised because
> Texas won't buy -- a
> well-known example is a biology text that talked
> about evolution as
> something that happened, rather than as a theory
> along with creationism.
> I think it's not unlikely that many countries
> provide their children
> with history that often does more to uphold a
> national mythos than
> troublesome historical fact!
>
>
> In the French case, what Anthere says, is kinda,
> sorta right ;-)  Clovis
> was the first Orthodox Christian King of a
> consolidated Frankish kingdom
> -- and the name France is derived from Francia, the
> Latin name for the
> Frankish kingdom.  Where it gets funny is that
> Francia is also the root
> for the German land of Franken ... or that (and
> here's where I find it
> odd) the Carolingians are much later, yet both
> Germans and French people
> consider Charlemagne "theirs."  SO what I've been
> trying to do is to
> explain why the French school version isn't exactly
> wrong, but that it's
> an over generalization -- maybe like remembering
> that Kozsiuszko
> (spelling probably way wrong) and DeKalb were heroes
> in the American
> Revolution and assuming that made them Americans.
> BTW (pax to Erik), I
> was at a conference in March and brought up this
> issue.  There were
> scholars there from all over, and they all
> specialized in the period
> between 300 and 800.  Not one of them, including the
> nice lady from the
> Sorbonne, said that they would consider the
> Merovingians to be Kings of
> France, or even French.
>
> Back until I run screaming ;-)
>
> Jules

That is interesting information; I did not know
Germans considered Charlemagne theirs. But then, we
share so much :-) (sausages, fries, trenches,
ecoregion...)
It is curious none of these people at the meeting
would agree with what is in the end taught to us. They
should be the authors of school programs, should not
they ?
I think history programms are updated about every 50
years or so, except for a couple of chapters in very
recent history. Perhaps, some Merovingians were seen
as Kings of France 50 years ago ?
Note that if I cannot judge this in history, I can
certainly certify this is true in other topics. Some
teachers insist in explaining principles and theories
in geology, biology or ecology which were valid 20
years ago, but are considered vastly wrong by the
research community now. Or, the over-simplification
required at young age just lead to near-false
statements. To a certain point, this can't be avoided.

Before your next run-screaming, do not hesitate to
point out to what you would say are really good
articles in history, so I could list them in articles
"deserving" translation in french (It would be nice
that we attract a nice-lady from La Sorbonne right ?).

That is...I will list them later. I am currently on a
sick-leave from the french wikip?dia. Running away
screaming might be a female habit :-)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] No-FX

in_reply_to: <20030525175720.16601.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com>; from littledanehren@yahoo.com on Sun, May 25, 2003 at 10:57:20AM -0700

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> On a side note, if you stopped getting these vandals
> so mad at you, they wouldn't keep vandalising your
> userpage (as I understand, this has happened more than
> once).

Can you give us examples of behaviors that you think have tended to
get these vandals mad?

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Helga

in_reply_to: <BAF49F40.24CF%fredbaud@ctelco.net>; from fredbaud@ctelco.net on Sat, May 24, 2003 at 04:02:08AM -0600

body:
No, Helga is not welcome to edit any wikipedia, she is banned.  If she
wishes to start again, the same offer stands as always -- she can
email me and chat about it.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Helga's back?

in_reply_to: <3ED1136B.20213.10798C4@localhost>; from martin@myreddice.freeserve.co.uk on Sun, May 25, 2003 at 07:03:07PM +0100

body:
martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> Further, Helga has respected the terms of her ban from wikipedia for
> three months. I feel that it would be appropriate to allow Helga
> back, on probation, to demonstrate that we Wikipedians don't bear
> grudges for months no end, and to offer an appropriate exit strategy
> for users such as Lir. Forgiveness would seem an important part of
> WikiLove, at least to me. (insert similar platitudes here).

I agree more or less with all of this, but it's key that she's
supposed to write to me to chat about things first.

Some of the things that we should insist on are matters of principle
for making long-term management easy.  Bans are a serious and sad
thing to happen, always regrettable.  Allowing them to vaguely melt
away after time will lead to inconsistent enforcement and will
encourage people to "test" us.

Better to be formal about it.  After a ban, the right thing to do is
write to me, and chat about it privately.  After that, a discussion on
the list will usually be warranted.

Since we really *aren't* vindictive ideologues, and really *are* just
a bunch of cheerful geeks trying to do something neat and fun, all a
person really has to do to get everyone back on board is be nice and
agree not to do whatever it was that was so upsetting the first time
around.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Helga's back?

body:
Jens Frank wrote:
> The rules are: Ask Jimbo first. Helga knows this. She apparently
> doesn't care. That doesn't show that she accepts the rules.

Exactly right.

If she is concerned that I might not act fairly, then she can take her
request public here on the list.  The point is not to come begging
back to me, hat in hand, hoping for mercy.  The point is to write an
encyclopedia.

--Jimbo


body:
Brion-

you're correct, I forgot about the bundling. How about just having two
options for the watchlist (new and modified) and another option

Watch conversations for [5   ] days

This would be a separate table that includes the expiry date, whereas
watchlist would continue to work without it. As you say, the watchlist is
more useful for long term observations. Talk pages would be added
transparently to the talklist, without any requirement for user
intervention.

The conversation watchlist could either be viewed as part of the normal
watchlist (upside: usability, downside: watchlist has to be loaded
unnecessarily in some cases) or as part of a separate "My conversations"
list. The conversations could be displayed like this:

 My conversations

 Talk:Zombie
 *User:Eloquence - May 25 10:00 - ''zombies suck'' - diff
 *User:Brion VIBBER - May 25 10:30 - ''do not!''  - diff
 Talk:Main Page
 ...

The text in '' would be the edit comment; the list would show all edits
since your last one. Alternatively, a shorter form:

 My conversations:
 *Talk:Zombie (3 new [[edits]] since your last one on ..)
 *Talk:MainPage (1 new [[edit]] since your last one on ..)

I think we really need a better way to keep track of discussions. People
split up discussions across different talk pages because of our nifty
message notification, or do stuff like "Please see .. for my response".
This should not be necessary.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l]
 "watch new and modified articles"->"watch  new articles"

body:
At 02:56 AM 5/25/2003 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
>The idea that pages should "expire" from my watchlist strikes me as,
>well, not at all desirable. My browser already shows me links to pages
>I've visited in the past few days,

Does your browser also keep track of whether those pages have been modified
since you last visited them? I for one would _love_ to be able to put
things on my watchlist in such a way that they automatically get removed
after a while; there are many times when I will make an edit to an article
and then someone will fix some goof I made a day or two later, and while
I'm not really interested enough in the topic to watch it forever I _am_
interested in seeing changes that are a direct result of my own messups.

I've edited thousands and thousands of articles, most of which were of only
_passing_ interest to me. I wouldn't want to have to manually clean them
out of my watchlist all the time, but it would be nice to have them in
there for a few days while the interest is still fresh. If someone puts
this functionality in, I will use it with gusto.
-------------- next part --------------

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 5/13/2003


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] No-FX

body:
And how do you suggest I do that?

Zoe

--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On a side note, if you stopped getting these vandals
> so mad at you, they wouldn't keep vandalising your
> userpage (as I understand, this has happened more
> than
> once).
> --LittleDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Kurt Jansson

body:
Brion Vibber schrieb:
> Now I know we're supposed to be in feature freeze, but I consider this a
> bug fix as it's been damn annoying. I've just checked in changes to
> Article.php, SpecialContributions.php, and Language.php to add a
> last-user-name check to the rollback link.

Cool. Could you please also add a check before deletion if a page has
been edited?

> And, the article count should
> now be running on the agreed-upon link-count instead of ugly old
> comma-count (this change has been in the code for a while, but is only
> now live).

And, how many more articles does the counter show? :-)

Kurt


subject: [Wikitech-l] Newtalk table reform

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

We don't have to do this immediately, but would there be any objection
to removing the user_id column from the user_newtalk table and using
that table only for anon IP addresses?

It just strikes me as a bizarre structure (each row contains data in
*either* user_id or user_ip), and we already load up the whole row from
the user table when dealing with a logged-in user. If we put the
user_newtalk column back into user, we can cut out a query from each
logged-in page view. Not much, sure, but it seems redundant as it is.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Security Problem?

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 14:17, Thomas Corell skribis:
> and I got an error: 1143: SELECT command denied to user:
> 'wikisql at 127.0.0.1' for column 'user_touched' in table 'user'
>
> Is our pretty MySQL to stupit to know that * includes user_touched? I
> know which permissions are set by users.sql, I'm only wondering.

Sysop queries aren't allowed to touch user_password, user_newpassword,
or user_email. It looks like I didn't think to add user_touched to the
permissions when that column was added; it is debatable whether
allowing it would be a privacy issue (as it tracks the last time
someone logged in, logged out, saved their preferences, had a message
left on their talk page, or viewed their talk page, even if they have
made not edits to the wiki and thus don't expect to be publicly
tracked).

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

body:
In a message dated 5/25/2003 12:43:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
juleskemp at yahoo.com writes:

> Back until I run screaming ;-)
>
>

Great to have you back.

Danny
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body:
> Brion Vibber schrieb:
>> Now I know we're supposed to be in feature freeze, but I consider this a
>> bug fix as it's been damn annoying. I've just checked in changes to
>> Article.php, SpecialContributions.php, and Language.php to add a
>> last-user-name check to the rollback link.

> Cool. Could you please also add a check before deletion if a page has
> been edited?

You mean a warning if a page that is to be deleted has a history? That's
already in CVS.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Jens Frank

body:
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 02:56:00PM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > Brion Vibber schrieb:
> >> Now I know we're supposed to be in feature freeze, but I consider this a
> >> bug fix as it's been damn annoying. I've just checked in changes to
> >> Article.php, SpecialContributions.php, and Language.php to add a
> >> last-user-name check to the rollback link.
>
> > Cool. Could you please also add a check before deletion if a page has
> > been edited?
>
> You mean a warning if a page that is to be deleted has a history? That's
> already in CVS.

I think a warning that the page that you are going to delete has been
edited since you read it might be useful.

	JeLuF


body:
Erik Moeller schrieb:
>>Brion Vibber schrieb:
>>
>>>Now I know we're supposed to be in feature freeze, but I consider this a
>>>bug fix as it's been damn annoying. I've just checked in changes to
>>>Article.php, SpecialContributions.php, and Language.php to add a
>>>last-user-name check to the rollback link.
>
>>Cool. Could you please also add a check before deletion if a page has
>>been edited?
>
> You mean a warning if a page that is to be deleted has a history? That's
> already in CVS.

No, I ment a warning if a page has been edited between my last look at
it and the deletion. Like the edit conflict check.

Often people are motivated by the garbage someone entered to write a
real article. I don't want to delete it accidentally.

Kurt


body:
Stan wrote:

I think you're touching on the root of frustration here.  Wikipedia
is supposed to be a secondary source, not a primary one, which
means that every factoid in it should be extracted from somewhere
else, preferably from the published work of a recognized authority.

**Actually, Stan, you misunderstand the difference between primary and
secondary sources.  I think you may mean that the 'pedia is not supposed
to be articles that are original research?  If that's the case, what I
am saying is neither original nor is it new.  If for some reason only
other encyclopedias and general popular history and lower-division texts
are considered appropriate as sources, but not scholarly books and
articles meant for a narrower audience (or even primary sources) then we
are truly working towards the lowest common denominator.  Just because
it hasn't trickled down to the mass audience doesn't make it cutting
edge or some wild theory.

When there are multiple authorities disagreeing with each other,
it's a difficult situation for editors.  For instance, you've alluded
to latest research or latest trends among historians, but is the
latest trend authoritative?  Not really, because maybe it's just a
fad and will be discredited by an article - maybe even one of yours! -
a year from now.  Although we'd always like to pick up the latest
info possible, in some cases I think we have to hold back, just use
what is at the most recent edge of consensus, and note that more
recent claims are not yet settled.

**How very patronizing -- again, this idea is hardly new.  The 1982
version of Hollister's "Medieval Europe" first published in 1964, says
that Charles the Bald became sole ruler of West Frankland, "which
evolved into Modern France" (p.106).  The implication is clear that
there was no France at this time -- approximately 300 years after
Clovis.

**The crux of the problem is that we are using modern boundaries and
modern concepts of nations anachronistically.  **For example, Edward
James' book, cited on the page in question, is about the history of
France -- it's been a while since I've read it, but I would wager money
that he calls the Merovingians kings of the Franks (rex francorum).  Yet
the book is called Origins of France or something like that -- why?
Because we want to know where the France of today came from, and its
modern roots are in the post-Roman, Germanic world of the Franks (not to
mention all the Roman and Christian things they adopted.  You might
notice that the books Jacques cites are fairly recent -- in academic
terms as recent as the Geary books I cite -- and I could name others, if
I didn't have a ton of papers to correct.  By the way, what makes you
assume that I am stating a view not currently held among those people
whose studies focus on the period?

Merovingians as not-French is definitely in the radical rethink
category, and it may be a decade, or a generation, or even longer,
before it comes to be generally accepted.

** Why do you think this?  What evidence do you have?  Even Anthere
admits to the possibilities of what I am saying.

Until then, trying to edit Wikipedia based on the assumption that the
assertion is true
is going to be hard; you're going against an army of editors who
are backed by a horde of published authorities with reputations
much higher than your own.

**Again, that's pretty patronizing.  Did you read at all what I had
written?  It includes the fact that French people traditionally consider
Clovis a king of France, but that this is not properly true, in that
France didn't exist.  In fact, have you read any of the discussions on
the talk pages (where there are a couple of comments that demonstrate
that a compromise view makes sense)?  And, since you have jumped into
the fray ready to tell me that, as nice as they are, my views just don't
jibe with what "most people know based on published authorities," I have
to ask you one question.  Why exactly do you think you have enough
background knowledge on the subject to tell someone who has probably
read a lot more on the subject for the past 15 or so years, including
reviews of the books I haven't yet gotten to (which means I have an idea
of what colleagues think of these newfangled theories) that her judgment
as to what is accepted and what isn't, is in question?

JK -- building up the first scream


body:
> On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 02:56:00PM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
>>> Brion Vibber schrieb:
>>>> Now I know we're supposed to be in feature freeze, but I consider this a
>>>> bug fix as it's been damn annoying. I've just checked in changes to
>>>> Article.php, SpecialContributions.php, and Language.php to add a
>>>> last-user-name check to the rollback link.
>>
>>> Cool. Could you please also add a check before deletion if a page has
>>> been edited?
>>
>> You mean a warning if a page that is to be deleted has a history? That's
>> already in CVS.

> I think a warning that the page that you are going to delete has been
> edited since you read it might be useful.

Hmm. We could pass a revision timestamp to the delete function as an
argument. If the current revision is newer, a warning could be displayed.
Brion, what do you think?

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Security Problem?

body:
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Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 15:13, Thomas Corell skribis:
> Well, I only tested german wikipedia, of course. But I see all this
> values, which of course I could not edit.

Whoaaaaaaa, that's a horse of a different color.

That's a serious bug.

Okay: this correctly gives error:
SELECT user_password from user limit 5

but this shows the password and e-mail fields:
SELECT * from user limit 5

I'm disabling the queries until this is fixed.

> The other problem I
> remember: public access to user.sql via the download area. If you do
> this, forget all that restrictions.

??????

urkkkk..... those should really not have been there. I assume Lee
created them at some point when making backups, and forgot that they
were world-accessible download directories. I've deleted them.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] scream getting more imminent

body:
Here is the latest on my user page:

Please leave and don't come back until you can cooperate and work in the
spirit of creating something valuable.Jacques Delson
<http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jacques_Delson>  22:31 25 May 2003
(UTC)
This is the page in question:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_monarchs

Where I have tried to give some historical context to the differing
viewpoints - the very same kind of neutralizing that Michael Tinkler,
Paul, Mav, and I (among many others) did in the Germany-Poland wars.  I
still find it odd that, when I'm talking about something I know much
more about, I am somehow less credible .

Also please see the talk page.

Thanks

Julie
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subject: [WikiEN-l] request for tech help

body:
I am getting the "you are blocked" message again. Let me clarify. I am not
Michael. This is frustrating.

Danny
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from_name: Paul Ebermann

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rollback fix (and counters)

body:
"Erik Moeller" skribis:

> > Brion Vibber schrieb:
> >> Now I know we're supposed to be in feature freeze, but I consider this a
> >> bug fix as it's been damn annoying. I've just checked in changes to
> >> Article.php, SpecialContributions.php, and Language.php to add a
> >> last-user-name check to the rollback link.
>
> > Cool. Could you please also add a check before deletion if a page has
> > been edited?
>
> You mean a warning if a page that is to be deleted has a history? That's
> already in CVS.

I don't know what Kurt means, but I think about a similar
check like the one for the rollback - "is the last edit the
same as it was when generating the remove-link"?

Paul


body:
Paul Ebermann schrieb:

> I don't know what Kurt means

Sorry for my confusing grammar and for not being very eloquent :-)

Kurt


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Helga's back?

body:
Martin "MyRedDice" Harper wrote:
> Further, Helga has respected the terms of her ban from wikipedia for three
> months. I feel that it would be appropriate to allow Helga back, on
> probation, to demonstrate that we Wikipedians don't bear grudges for months
> no end, and to offer an appropriate exit strategy for users such as Lir.
> Forgiveness would seem an important part of WikiLove, at least to me.
> (insert similar platitudes here).

Ahem. There were two conditions for Helga to return;

1) She could not under any circumstances edit for three months. As far as I
know she satisfied this condition.

2) After that period was over /then/ she had to contact Jimbo directly for a
chat. After that it was up to Jimbo to lift the ban.

As far as I know she has not satisfied this second condition yet.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Security Problem?

body:
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Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 15:36, Brion Vibber skribis:
> Okay: this correctly gives error:
> SELECT user_password from user limit 5
>
> but this shows the password and e-mail fields:
> SELECT * from user limit 5

Okay, this is a MySQL bug. It's apparently fixed in 4.0.13, here's the
changelog entry:
  * Fixed a security problem with SELECT and wildcarded select list,
    when user only had partial column SELECT privileges on the table.

I'll install the upgrade, then reenable sql queries if all is well.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
I modified LanguageDe.php (in CVS) and included translations for the new
texts.

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Julie Kemp wrote:

>[...] What's in textbooks is not
>always accurate!  I don't know how it's done in France, but I think it's
>similar everywhere in that much is decided by committee.  If you
>subscribe to some of the H-net mailing lists, like I do, or belong to
>the American Historical Association, you know how bad it can be.
>
I think you're touching on the root of frustration here.  Wikipedia
is supposed to be a secondary source, not a primary one, which
means that every factoid in it should be extracted from somewhere
else, preferably from the published work of a recognized authority.
When there are multiple authorities disagreeing with each other,
it's a difficult situation for editors.  For instance, you've alluded
to latest research or latest trends among historians, but is the
latest trend authoritative?  Not really, because maybe it's just a
fad and will be discredited by an article - maybe even one of yours! -
a year from now.  Although we'd always like to pick up the latest
info possible, in some cases I think we have to hold back, just use
what is at the most recent edge of consensus, and note that more
recent claims are not yet settled. (For instance, many of the articles
touching on biological taxonomy are full of caveats because recent
DNA results are casting old groupings into disarray, and nobody
yet knows how it will all shake out.)

Merovingians as not-French is definitely in the radical rethink
category, and it may be a decade, or a generation, or even longer,
before it comes to be generally accepted.  Until then, trying to
edit Wikipedia based on the assumption that the assertion is true
is going to be hard; you're going against an army of editors who
are backed by a horde of published authorities with reputations
much higher than your own.

Stan


subject: [Wikitech-l] Security Problem?

body:
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Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 16:42, Brion Vibber skribis:
> Okay, this is a MySQL bug. It's apparently fixed in 4.0.13, here's
> the changelog entry:
>   * Fixed a security problem with SELECT and wildcarded select list,
>     when user only had partial column SELECT privileges on the table.

4.0.13 is installed, it seems to have fixed the bug. SQL queries back
open for business.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Notheruser

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat's Sysop Nomination Seconded

body:
I second Evercat's nomination for sysop.

- Notheruser

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: epzachte at chello.nl

subject: [Wikitech-l] Suggestion: when article contains unicode auto add link to support page

body:
When I view  a page like 'Greek alphabet' on the English Wikipedia unicode characters are displayed as 'empty boxes'.

I thought Windows (I use XP) would automatically offer to download any fonts needed to display special unicode characters. It doesn't.

My suggestion: would it be useful on each page that contains unicode to automatically add a link to a help page that gives hints and tips for enabling unicode on popular browsers?

Erik Zachte


from_name: martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk

subject: [WikiEN-l] Helga's back?

body:
Hi all,

Having looked at a selection of the edits from 66.47.62.78, they look fine. The
problem with Helga was apparently due to her "unique" POV on history, and her
refusal to work with others. To date,  66.47.62.78 doesn't appear to have done either
of these things. There was a somewhat dubious sentence added to [[Nazi
Germany]], ("No allied Soviets were ever put on trial for their crimes against
humanity") - factually true but probably not central to this particular article (better at
[[Nuremberg Trials]], and swiftly reverted. There were also plenty of completely
inoffensive edits.

Further, Helga has respected the terms of her ban from wikipedia for three months. I
feel that it would be appropriate to allow Helga back, on probation, to demonstrate
that we Wikipedians don't bear grudges for months no end, and to offer an
appropriate exit strategy for users such as Lir. Forgiveness would seem an important
part of WikiLove, at least to me. (insert similar platitudes here).

Of course, if she starts falling into bad habits again, by all means let us swiftly soft
ban her and follow that up with a hard ban as appropriate. Apparently it took around
a year to decide to ban Helga - we need not take so long the second time, should
that turn out to be necessary.

-Martin "MyRedDice" Harper


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Suggestion: when article contains unicode auto add
 link to support page

body:
epzachte at chello.nl wrote:
> When I view  a page like 'Greek alphabet' on the English Wikipedia unicode characters are displayed as 'empty boxes'.
>
> I thought Windows (I use XP) would automatically offer to download any fonts needed to display special unicode characters. It doesn't.
>
> My suggestion: would it be useful on each page that contains unicode to automatically add a link to a help page that gives hints and tips for enabling unicode on popular browsers?
>

Sorry, but I think if we start placing Information about such problems on
_each_ page we have missed something. There are FAQ and Manual links on
each page, if you put the information there it will be enought.

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] Danny blocked again message

body:
>I am getting the "you are blocked" message again.
>Let me clarify. I am not Michael. This is frustrating.
>
>Danny

It is also frustrating to read such a message without one crucial piece of
information: the IP address that needs to be unblocked. ;-)

But since you are an Admin then you can unblock yourself. Just mossy on over
to http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist and unblock your IP.

However we still have two problems; we would like to exclude Micheal but not
block other AOL users.

Both soft and hard security measures have completely failed to affect an
adequate ban in this case, so IMO it is high time for somebody to complain to
AOL about Micheal's continued activities.

--- mav


subject: [WikiEN-l] Helga's back?

body:
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 07:03:07PM +0100, martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Having looked at a selection of the edits from 66.47.62.78, they look fine. The
> problem with Helga was apparently due to her "unique" POV on history, and her
> refusal to work with others. To date,  66.47.62.78 doesn't appear to have done either
> of these things. There was a somewhat dubious sentence added to [[Nazi
> Germany]], ("No allied Soviets were ever put on trial for their crimes against
> humanity") - factually true but probably not central to this particular article (better at
> [[Nuremberg Trials]], and swiftly reverted. There were also plenty of completely
> inoffensive edits.

Read http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Malbork&diff=956630&oldid=956346
That's the basic pattern: "The cities are German, and therefor she names them by
their German name. The Poles just stole them." She adds this subtle POV to all
articles.

Or read http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Bydgoszcz&diff=956642&oldid=954602
This are some completely useless facts she added. They prove that this is German
land, of course. There is a map with two cities. But what's the link to Bydgoszcz?

No, she did not change.

> Further, Helga has respected the terms of her ban from wikipedia for three months. I
> feel that it would be appropriate to allow Helga back, on probation, to demonstrate
> that we Wikipedians don't bear grudges for months no end, and to offer an
> appropriate exit strategy for users such as Lir. Forgiveness would seem an important
> part of WikiLove, at least to me. (insert similar platitudes here).

The rules are: Ask Jimbo first. Helga knows this. She apparently doesn't care. That
doesn't show that she accepts the rules.

> Of course, if she starts falling into bad habits again, by all means let us swiftly soft
> ban her and follow that up with a hard ban as appropriate. Apparently it took around
> a year to decide to ban Helga - we need not take so long the second time, should
> that turn out to be necessary.

It's not the second time. She has been banned at least two times, if not three (she was
unbanned by accident, if I remember correctly).

JeLuF


subject: [WikiEN-l] Helga re-banned

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 21:39, Erik Moeller skribis:
> I would still like to know who unblocked her, just in case it was not
> an accident. It should be determinable by looking up the URL

See http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_probation_watchlist

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: cprompt

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>--- John Knouse <jaknouse at frognet.net> wrote:
>
>
>>It turns out that, though Wikipedia said I was
>>logged in, it
>>said I wasn't logged in, and when I re-logged in, I
>>got my
>>watchlist back.  Strange.
>>
>>--
>>John Knouse
>>jaknouse at frognet.net
>>
>>
>
>That's probably from the bad proxy cache your ISP has.
>It happens to me all of the time. Sometimes, when I'm
>visiting pages, it keeps saying I have new messages.
>Every time, I click on the link, but it just shows the
>proxy-cached version of it with no new messages.
>--LittleDan
>
I'm not sure why, but I get that problem often with Internet Explorer,
and very rarely with Mozilla. Since I now use Mozilla most of the time
(gotta love the tabs), I've never had that problem.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Security Problem?

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Je Diman?o 25 Majo 2003 22:02, Thomas Corell skribis:
> Fine. One apache, one Mysql bug. Seems to be enought for a weekend.
> *grin demonically*

Please don't find any kernel bugs; they don't have a more recent stable
release of that yet. :D

> Did I told that I like feature frezze? ;)

If only we could declare a bug freeze. :)

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] "watch new and modified articles"->"watch
  new articles"

body:
Bryan Derksen wrote:
> At 02:56 AM 5/25/2003 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> The idea that pages should "expire" from my watchlist strikes me as,
>> well, not at all desirable. My browser already shows me links to pages
>> I've visited in the past few days,
> I've edited thousands and thousands of articles, most of which were of
> only _passing_ interest to me. I wouldn't want to have to manually clean
> them out of my watchlist all the time, but it would be nice to have them
> in there for a few days while the interest is still fresh. If someone
> puts this functionality in, I will use it with gusto.
>

I think the idea is very interesting. But I think I would like two things:
One watchlist I manualy add pages to, to keep track until I remove them,
and the list I activate with watch new/modified for some days.

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


body:
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 11:49:10AM -0700, Anthere wrote:
>
> --- Julie Kemp <juleskemp at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > In the French case, what Anthere says, is kinda,
> > sorta right ;-)  Clovis
> > was the first Orthodox Christian King of a
> > consolidated Frankish kingdom
> > -- and the name France is derived from Francia, the
> > Latin name for the
> > Frankish kingdom.  Where it gets funny is that
> > Francia is also the root
> > for the German land of Franken ... or that (and
> > here's where I find it
> > odd) the Carolingians are much later, yet both
> > Germans and French people
> > consider Charlemagne "theirs."
>
> That is interesting information; I did not know
> Germans considered Charlemagne theirs. But then, we
> share so much :-) (sausages, fries, trenches,
> ecoregion...)

He is known as Karl der Gro?e and of course a
German emperor ;-) On Wikipedia, he is listed on
both the [[List of French monarchs]] and on the
[[List of German Kings and Emperors]]. I don't
know what the Luxemburgians say about him...

I didn't hear about the name "Charlemagne" until
I've learned French and he was mentioned in our
French textbook. In that article, he was portrayed
as an European ruler and as the historical basis of
the franco-german friendship.

The 'Karlspreis' is a medal awarded to people
who are engaged in the European Unification.
The medal is named after Charlemagne.

Regards,

JeLuF


subject: [Wikitech-l] Security Problem?

body:
Hello,

what I tryed to get the oldest users was:

select * from user order by user_touched limit 10;

No problem, but a litle bit to much output. I modified:

select user_id, user_name from user order by user_touched limit 50;

and I got an error: 1143: SELECT command denied to user:
'wikisql at 127.0.0.1' for column 'user_touched' in table 'user'

Is our pretty MySQL to stupit to know that * includes user_touched? I know
which permissions are set by users.sql, I'm only wondering.

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] Danny blocked again message

body:
In a message dated 5/25/2003 10:08:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
maveric149 at yahoo.com writes:

> But since you are an Admin then you can unblock yourself. Just mossy on
> over
> to http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist and unblock your IP.
>
>

The problem is that I do not want to unblock Michael, who, though I have not
been following it in great detail, it appears really should be blocked.

Danny
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Security Problem?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Sysop queries aren't allowed to touch user_password, user_newpassword,
> or user_email. It looks like I didn't think to add user_touched to the
> permissions when that column was added; it is debatable whether
> allowing it would be a privacy issue (as it tracks the last time
> someone logged in, logged out, saved their preferences, had a message
> left on their talk page, or viewed their talk page, even if they have
> made not edits to the wiki and thus don't expect to be publicly
> tracked).

Well, I only tested german wikipedia, of course. But I see all this values,
which of course I could not edit. The other problem I remember: public
access to user.sql via the download area. If you do this, forget all that
restrictions.

I can not test if the permissions in maintenance/users.sql are applied to
the german wiki, but in that file they look right.

If sysops are allowed that privacy data, well in contrast to Jimbos Mail
about everything open for all, I've personally no problem with
restrictions, but thats something for long term wikipedians, with the
proper wikiquette in mind.

PS: I only come across on my experiments for new SpecialPages. One Idea was
to know about never used accounts. Coming along with the idea to delete
them by software, in order to prevent things like the problematic deletion
of one of our german members.
--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] Title characters

body:
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Je Lundo 26 Majo 2003 00:52, Andre Engels skribis:
> Note that currently & is allowed, but not working - linking to a page
> with '&' in the title, takes you to the page with only the part
> before the '&'.

No, that's just a bug in the rewrite rules; some of the wikis didn't get
the proper escaping fix added in. Fixed on NL now.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] languageNl.php

body:
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Je Lundo 26 Majo 2003 00:38, Andre Engels skribis:
> The new languageNl.php has been uploaded to Sourceforge, but the
> person who did so apparently is not able to actually upload it to
> Wikipedia. Could someone please do so?

Hmm, I tried to install it but for some reason it broke namespace
localization: it was all 'User talk' instead of 'Overleg gebruiker', so
I put it back for the moment...

> Also, Rene Pijlman has left Wikipedia, and thus I think it would be
> better to revoke his sysop-ship on WikipediaNL.

Done.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] languageNl.php

body:
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Je Lundo 26 Majo 2003 01:07, Brion Vibber skribis:
> Hmm, I tried to install it but for some reason it broke namespace
> localization: it was all 'User talk' instead of 'Overleg gebruiker',
> so I put it back for the moment...

Okay, seems to be working now. I added two commas, and also took the |s
out of the linktrail regexp (would need them in parens, but not in
square brackets). Changes in CVS.

I also temporarily commented out the defs for special pages Intl and
Ancientpages, which are not yet enabled.

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from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Danny blocked again message

body:
Danny-
> The problem is that I do not want to unblock Michael, who, though I have not
> been following it in great detail, it appears really should be blocked.

Michael is blocked under his latest pseudonym, NO-FX -- unblocking your IP
address will not change this (we can block both by IP and by nickname).
Besides, since the IP address is dynamic, it is unlikely that whatever
vandal originally used it will get it again soon.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Newtalk table reform

body:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1

> We don't have to do this immediately, but would there be any objection
> to removing the user_id column from the user_newtalk table and using
> that table only for anon IP addresses?

Nope - go ahead and change this if you want.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] The principle of fair use

body:
>But I can't understand why this
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3A843-870_Europe.jpg
>is fair use. The map has been created for an encyclopedia
>or an history textbook. If this is fair use, is there any
>picture we may not use?

It depends on its source. Many maps designed as teaching aids aren't
copyrighted, for the very good reason that they are copied by teachers
throughout an educational system. Others are issued with the instruction
"for educational use only". If the former, without copyright there would be
no problem in usage. If the latter, one could argue that as wikipedia is
clearly for educational and not commercial usage, it could claim usage.

Looking at the image, I would say it probably predates the 1950s though
whether it predates the 1923 copyright limit is hard to say. The nature of
the colouring and font usage I have seen in 19th century documents and
history books but also in the 1950s. It certainly was not designed on a
computer, unless someone was trying to construct a 'retro' look. So unless
we know the source we cannot say whether it is copyright-free,
copyright-expired or designed exclusively for educational use. The trouble
is this seems first to have appeared on wiki under the dreaded DW. Maybe, as
Camembert and others suspected the obnoxious Jacques was really DW in a
French accent, we should ask Jacques before he goes where he got it. Or on
second thoughts, maybe not. We don't want to give him an excuse to stay!!!

JT

_________________________________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] scream getting more imminent

body:
JHK-
> Please leave and don't come back until you can cooperate and work in the
> spirit of creating something valuable.Jacques Delson
> <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jacques_Delson>  22:31 25 May 2003
> (UTC)

According to his talk page, Jacques has left the project.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Helga re-banned

body:
I have blocked Helga's IP address again, as per Jimbo's explanation that
she is still banned. Please note that Helga has a static IP, 66.47.62.78.
The blocking reason is:

"Static IP address of banned user Helga Jonat. You were unbanned by
accident -- if you want to contribute again, please send a message to:
jwales at bomis dot com"

I have not banned her username, H. Jonat.

I would still like to know who unblocked her, just in case it was not an
accident. It should be determinable by looking up the URL

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/
wiki.phtml?title=Special:Ipblocklist&action=unblock&ip=66.47.62.78

in the Apache access log, unless it happened too long ago.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Danny blocked again message

body:
On Mon, May 26, 2003 at 06:15:00AM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Danny-
> > The problem is that I do not want to unblock Michael, who, though I have not
> > been following it in great detail, it appears really should be blocked.
>
> Michael is blocked under his latest pseudonym, NO-FX -- unblocking your IP
> address will not change this (we can block both by IP and by nickname).
> Besides, since the IP address is dynamic, it is unlikely that whatever
> vandal originally used it will get it again soon.

The last few days, Michael is editing without being logged in. The IP's
he uses get blocked by some sysops.

AOL is forcing its customers to use proxies. We do not see the dynamic
IP of Michael, we see the IP's of the proxies he is using (and others
are using, too).

Regards,

JeLuF


subject: [WikiEN-l] Danny blocked again message

body:
Jens-
> The last few days, Michael is editing without being logged in. The IP's
> he uses get blocked by some sysops.

> AOL is forcing its customers to use proxies. We do not see the dynamic
> IP of Michael, we see the IP's of the proxies he is using (and others
> are using, too).

Aha! This is very annoying. All the more reason to implement an auto
expiry for IP blocks. Right after the feature freeze ..

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Security Problem?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> 4.0.13 is installed, it seems to have fixed the bug. SQL queries back
> open for business.
>

Fine. One apache, one Mysql bug. Seems to be enought for a weekend. *grin
demonically*

Did I told that I like feature frezze? ;)

--
Smurf
Two for the records, one in mind.
smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] The principle of fair use

body:
Hello,

I understood that a few seconds of music are "fair use",
we do not distribute the entire song but only a sample
suitable to give a first impression.

I somewhat understood why a picture of Donald Duck is
"fair use". We are not in the same business as Disney,
we are writing an encyclopedia and not comic books.

But I can't understand why this
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3A843-870_Europe.jpg
is fair use. The map has been created for an encyclopedia
or an history textbook. If this is fair use, is there any
picture we may not use?

JeLuF


subject: [WikiEN-l] User Michael and ways to deal with him

body:
Tony Wilson wrote:

>Let's all pitch in, people. Think of it as an experiment in psychology.
>How long would *you* keep on making contributions to the 'pedia for if
>every single edit you ever made was reverted without coment inside of
>ten minutes?
>Tony Wilson
>(Tannin)
>
>
Yes!  I'm ready!  :-)  But, uh, how do I recognize the Michael edits?

Stan


from_name: John R. Owens

subject: [WikiEN-l] scream getting more imminent

body:
On 26 May 2003, Erik Moeller wrote:

> Date: 26 May 2003 06:34:00 +0200
> From: Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] scream getting more imminent
>
> JHK-
> > Please leave and don't come back until you can cooperate and work in the
> > spirit of creating something valuable.Jacques Delson
> > <http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jacques_Delson>  22:31 25 May 2003
> > (UTC)
>
> According to his talk page, Jacques has left the project.

And grown another hydra-head named Triton, perhaps? Just a hunch, haven't
even added it to my infamous (I can use that word here, right? ;) list
yet.

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
The avalanche has already started; it is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
				--Kosh Naranek


subject: [Wikitech-l] Added bytesize to newpages

body:
Just a minor change, should help locating those junk pages.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

body:
I would help, but how do you tell that it is michael's
work without reading it?
--LittleDan

--- Tony Wilson <list at redhill.net.au> wrote:
> I just want to reiterate my full support for Zoe on
> this one. Zoe (and
> several other good Wikicitizens) have been
> implementing a soft ban on
> our misguided friend with the dynamic IP. People, we
> *can't* implement
> a hard ban. At least not without banning several
> good and useful
> contributors as well. On the whole, much as I'd like
> to see the back of
> our socially-challemged friend, I'd rather
> contribute to a Wikipedia
> that had Micheal around than a Wikipedia that
> managed to ban him only
> at the expense of banning Danny as well!
>
> If Mav's suggestion of complaining to AOL works,
> then great! But I
> won't hold my breath for that.
>
> The soft ban is the answer. Zoe and about six or
> eight others (incuding
> me) have taken to ruthlessly reverting *everything*
> that Michael posts.
> We don't bother reading it or tying to work out if
> it contains a shred
> of fact or not (with Michael's stuff, this is damn
> near impossible
> anyway - in 10 minutes he can post up enough of that
> devilishly twisted
> mixture of fact and fiction to keep two or three
> copy-editors busy
> checking on "facts" and correcting 50% of them for
> several hours). None
> of us have time for that idiocy: the only sensible
> way to deal with
> Michael is to revert on sight and without
> compunction. Three clicks and
> the 'pedia is idiocy-free once more, and *you* are
> back to working on
> something *useful* again.
>
> Best of all, because it only takes a few moments and
> hardly any thought
> at all to blanket-revert Michael edits (excuse me
> while I shout this
> bit) ... WE REVERSE THE BURDEN OF LABOUR! For the
> first time, it's
> harder for him than it is for us. Instead of *us*
> taking hours to clean
> up the mess that *he* creates in mere minutes, when
> we just revert
> Michael unread and on sight, we can undo his many
> minutes of creative
> vandalism in just a few seconds. I know he's a
> determined little
> horror, but no-one can push that sort of load uphill
> for too long.
>
> Hell, if I was Tsar Jimbo, I think I'd un-ban his
> user names in the
> hope that he started posting as "Michael" or "No-FX"
> again - 'cause
> that just makes it easier to spot Michael edits and
> revert them.
> Anything he can post in an hour, Zoe can rollback in
> three minutes
> flat.
>
> Or me. Or Quercus. Or *you*.
>
> Let's all pitch in, people. Think of it as an
> experiment in psychology.
> How long would *you* keep on making contributions to
> the 'pedia for if
> every single edit you ever made was reverted without
> coment inside of
> ten minutes?
> Tony Wilson
> (Tannin)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] User Mydogategodshat

body:
--- Tony Wilson <list at redhill.net.au> wrote:
> Only two edts from this user, which seem to be OK,
> but his username -
> Mydogategodshat - seems a little beyond the
> borderline of good taste.
> Opinions, good Wikipeople?

Only a username
--LittleDan

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from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Two issues here:

body:
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Lars Aronsson wrote:
| Jimmy Wales wrote:
|
|>It's o.k. to delete anything that violates someone's privacy
|
| In Europe we are hearing this sort of argument being used to cover up
| Watergate-like situations.  The next Richard Nixon might claim that
| his privacy would be violated if the scandal was reported.  This makes
| me think twice when I hear the word "privacy".  It's a very vague
| term, and can sometimes be used as an opposite to "justice".
|
| I'm starting to agree with Scott McNealy: "Privacy - get over it",
| http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,17538,00.html

The distinction is a simple one, and only those who are actively working
to eliminate privacy find it difficult to understand.  Richard Nixon (or
for a more recent example, Slick Willy Clinton), as a public figure, had
no right to privacy.  He gave it up when he chose -- of his own free
will -- to seek public office.  I, on the other hand, retain my right to
privacy, except where I have taken affirmative action to weaken that
right.  I have no right to keep the files on my Web site private -- I
started my Web server, giving up that right.  I have an absolute right
to keep my actions in my home private, because I have done nothing to
lead anyone to believe I have given up that right -- I haven't installed
a Web-cam, invited a news crew in, or anything like that.

- --
~ Sean Barrett     | Incoming fire has the right-of-way.
~ sean at epoptic.com |
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael/Weezer/NOFX and blaming the victim

body:
--- Graham Burnett <grahamburnett at blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
> --- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > On a side note, if you stopped getting these
> vandals
> > so mad at you, they wouldn't keep vandalising your
> > userpage (as I understand, this has happened more
> > than
> > once).
> > --LittleDan
>
> And how do you suggest I do that?
>
> Zoe
>
> (moved Zoe's reply to the bottom for logical of
> reading order)
>
> I think this is what is known as 'blaming the
> victim'... Apparently I must
> have  'made him mad' in the first instance by
> correcting what at first
> appeared to be genuine mistakes on the Crass
> article... It seems I continued
> to 'make him mad' by reverting deliberate vandalism,
> as did camemebert, Zoe,
> Danny & others. Michael/Weezer/NOFX or whatever he's
> calling himself today
> hasn't actually attacked my userpage (yet) but has
> written abusive comments
> and attributed them to me as well as the other
> people I mentioned. Only Zoe
> seems to have been treated to having her user page
> altered to make vulgar
> inuendos regarding her sexual preferences, from
> which I can only deduce that
> this strange individual not only has a problem with
> Wikipedia, he also has
> issues with women. For me, my duty is to support Zoe
> against this
> inadequate's mysoginism, not to suggest that she
> only has herself to blame
> for upsetting him.
>
> Best wishes Graham (Quercus robur)

I'm sorry. What I said was completely uncalled for.

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from_name: Graham Burnett

body:
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:59:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] No-FX
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org

--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On a side note, if you stopped getting these vandals
> so mad at you, they wouldn't keep vandalising your
> userpage (as I understand, this has happened more
> than
> once).
> --LittleDan

And how do you suggest I do that?

Zoe

(moved Zoe's reply to the bottom for logical of reading order)

I think this is what is known as 'blaming the victim'... Apparently I must
have  'made him mad' in the first instance by correcting what at first
appeared to be genuine mistakes on the Crass article... It seems I continued
to 'make him mad' by reverting deliberate vandalism, as did camemebert, Zoe,
Danny & others. Michael/Weezer/NOFX or whatever he's calling himself today
hasn't actually attacked my userpage (yet) but has written abusive comments
and attributed them to me as well as the other people I mentioned. Only Zoe
seems to have been treated to having her user page altered to make vulgar
inuendos regarding her sexual preferences, from which I can only deduce that
this strange individual not only has a problem with Wikipedia, he also has
issues with women. For me, my duty is to support Zoe against this
inadequate's mysoginism, not to suggest that she only has herself to blame
for upsetting him.

Best wishes Graham (Quercus robur)


subject: [Wikitech-l] image markup quick fix

body:
Tarquin-
> here's an idea for quick temporary fix.

> How about we add the following to our stylesheet:

> div.floatright {
> float:right;
> margin:5px;
> }

> This means we can write in articles:
>
[[Image:Rockwell_font.png]]

> instead of what is currently on [[Rockwell (typeface)]]

Wouldn't you normally want a caption below the picture? In that case, you
also need to specify the width as part of the style. So you get

(or whatever)

instead of

Doesn't really save much.

Regards,

Erik