from_name: Gutza

subject: [Wikitech-l] Search and Go to for non-English Wikipedias

body:
Hello everybody,

I have a question regarding the search functionality for non-English
Wikipedias -- or more specifically, ones in languages which use
characters with diacriticals (e.g. ?, ?, ?, etc). When people need to
search for articles which include such characters, it can be pretty
awkward to type the proper diacriticals without the proper keyboard
configuration. Please note I'm not referring to regular contributors --
I expect them to have the keyboard set up properly for the Wikipedia
they're contributing to -- I'm talking about the random Joe who just
drops by.

Consider the article about "?tefan cel Mare" -- typing "Stefan cel Mare"
in the search box will find nothing! While this can be addressed with
redirects on the English Wikipedia, on local Wikipedias this is not
feasible, since most of the article titles contain diacriticals.

Is this problem addressed in any way in the current version of the
software? If so, how? If not, are there any proposals regarding this?
Has this been discussed before?

I have an idea on how to fix this, which is becoming a real nuisance on
the "other" Wikipedia I'm involved in (Romanian) -- and I expect the
Polish, Czech and other Central and Eastern European Wikipedias have
encountered it as well. But maybe it's fixed already, and I don't know
how to activate the feature.

Thank you!
Gutza


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Ilya N.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Happy Wikipedia Day!

body:
Yes w00t :)

On 1/15/06, SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> "You're precocious for a five-year old!"
>
> Happy Wikipedia Day, everyone.  To many more...
>
> --SJ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
~Ilya N.
http://w3stuff.com/ilya/ (My website; DarkLordFoxx Media)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ilyanep (on Wikipedia)


from_name: Mahmuti Satari

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Zazapedia

body:
Hi,

I want to lanch the Zazaki Language version of wikipedia.

The name of the Language:
Zazaki (Dimli / Kurmanjki)

Language Code:
Dimli diq  http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=diq

Number of people who can speak the Language:
2 Million

Additional Information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaza_people

Mehmet

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee?
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


from_name: Jakob Voss

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Allow multiple entries for one topic

body:
Troas wrote:

> I guess for me the difference was probably not so much about NPOV and SPOV
> but rather between the Brockhaus in one volume and in 30 volumes.

You intentions are good but NPOV and multiple articles on the same topic
  are not compatible. The only exception is different languages or
audience. For instance there could be an additional version for children
- but this should better kept in a seperate wiki as for languages.

> And I think there's another important issue: I must admit that I feel
> somewhat reluctant to delete another article and to replace it with my one.
> Although I may be an expert in a field, how can I be sure that I'm going to
> write a better (easier to read and understand, more accurate,...) article on
> a topic than somebody else?

If you think your article is not better then don't post it to Wikipedia
at all. By the way you seldomly write an entire new article but modify
the old version. If you have to write a new version from ground (this
happens) then the old version was not good enough.

Greetings,
Jakob


list: foundation-l

from_name: Sam Korn

subject: [Foundation-l] Logo use

body:
On the subject of the recent introduction of Wikimedia's visual
identity guidelines [1], I came across several images (one of which I
apparently created myself, though I don't remember doing so) which
contravene these guidelines.  Angela has made a list of these on Meta
[2].  Most of these don't seem to be intrinsically harmful to the
Foundation's copyright or give the impression that the Foundation
endorses any concept or group that it in fact does not.

However, there are some images that do concern me.  There are two
images created by Cool Cat [3] for a group named the "Counter
Vandalism Unit" [4], a group that aims to facilitate and improve
vandal fighting.  The images are logos for the group.  One [5]
incorporates the WMF logo, the other [6] the Wikipedia logo.

Cool Cat was given provisional permission by Anthere to use these
images before the above guidelines were created. [7]

However, the Counter Vandalism Unit does have some opposition within
the community.  I would note that I myself am in disagreement with
much of its structure and attitudes, particularly some comments that
imply that the Unit is the only way in which to fight vandalism.
However, just to avoid any undue comments, I am sending this post not
to request removal but just _reappraisal_ of the situation, which I
see as potentially harmful.

The logos give the impression that the Unit is Foundation-sanctioned.
This idea is encouraged by the proliferation of the Foundation logo
attached to Unit-related matters (most notably the infamous
userboxes).

With this in mind, may I suggest that the provisional permission
granted to Cool Cat be at least reconsidered in light of the new
guidelines.

Happy Wikipedia Day!

[1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_visual_identity_guidelines
[2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_logo_derivatives
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cool_Cat
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Counter_Vandalism_Unit
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CVU2.PNG
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CVU2.5.PNG
[7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CVU2.5.PNG

--
Sam


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Logo use


list: wikien-l

from_name: jayjg

subject: [WikiEN-l] kelvSYC's take on userboxes

body:
On 1/15/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I suspect that I'm not the only one to understand this
> > behavior in this way, for a few months ago Uncle G refused to
> > create a user page to combat this assumption. (However, when
> > I've asked the occasionally newbie who doesn't have a user
> > page to create one, I've never been refused; I'd say that
> > Uncle G was needlessly fighting a battle that didn't need to be
> > fought.)
>
> Um. Aren't we here to make an encyclopaedia?  I think I'd made a few
> hundred edits before I decided to add anything to my user page.

I edited for almost 3 months, making hundreds of edits, before editing my
user page.  I don't think I even knew it existed.

Jay.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] test.wikipedia.org

body:
On 15/01/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is? Where can we download his ~?

For some reason, I'm having to try hard not to make childish jokes
here; sorry, too tired.

anyway, as Brion said:
> > > Gone, dead, buried. Sorry.

What I actually wanted to point out was the message on the old
testwiki front page:
"EVERYTHING ON THIS WIKI WILL BE ERASED WHEN THE WIKI IS REINITIALIZED."
This seemed like a perfectly good policy, and the idea of actually
trying to use a wiki specifically designed as a trap for instability
is frankly rather silly.

If a wiki is needed for test *content*, that's a separate issue,
though it rather opens up a can of worms regarding most of the other
content of meta, if you ask me...

[Obviously, if people ignored this advice and created content on that
wiki, and there *is* a dump somewhere, that's lucky for them, and it
should probably be retrieved]

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Tels

subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Moin Alexander,

On Sunday 15 January 2006 18:44, Alexander Bobrov wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> A little addition: search button of the same style:
>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki2.shtml

Just a few remarks:

* I do not like the overly 3D design. The entire old skin design is more
or less flat  and the new buttons deviate too much from that. I think
making them 3D (especially the search button!) is a solution in search of
a problem :)
* The new edit buttons are nice, but apart from the 3D problem, they also
suffer from reduced contrast. That might be due to JPG compression, but
IMHO the black "A" was much better readable than your new dark grey
version, especially because the background is now also more grey/silver.
* In additon, the blue buttons stand out more, the silver ones almost
vanish on the white background (since they don't have a black border,
either)

I think a flat button design that matches the "1px solid dark-grey"
borders of the rest of the site might be a good idea - in fact, just like
the current search button.

Best wishes,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Sun Jan 15 18:50:10 2006 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy,
 the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese,
 the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of
 arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most
 powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon'. Need I
 say more?" -Chris Rock

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from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] admin violations again

body:
On 1/14/06, prgibbons at ou.edu <prgibbons at ou.edu> wrote:
> If blocking me for reverting vandalism (tag placement and replacement with no discussion despite requests)

In certain circumstances putting some tags on an article without
discussion may be close to vandalism, but if this is going on you
shouldn't just edit war over it.  Usually this kind of thing is more
of a content dispute.


from_name: Alexander Bobrov

subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
Hi,

A new design for Wiki editing buttons:
  http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/

I made it as a better fit for Wiki silvery style.

Best regards,

Alex Bobrov____________________________________________
Indian Summer Studio                 http://indians.ru/


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Foundation-l] Creating contents for "small" Wikipedias

body:
How to create content for small Wikpedias?

The fastest way is "translation".

Premisses:
*Most people need a starting point to "create" so we must give them to
all these potential editors.
*People have different interests so also that content must be different.
*We have loads of, for example, African languages that need "help".
*People do not have a stable internet access.
*People in, for example, African countries could work offline on Linux
systems and things could be uploaded.
*Many would like translations to be proof read and have "reference
material" to look up sentence structures and terminology immediately.

Well ... actually translations are mostly done by copying the contents
from one wikipedia to the other and then start translating. People use
paper dictionaries or workarounds - search for terminology over and over
again.

Now there's that neat software allowing for Computer Assited
Translation: OmegaT (http://www.omegat.org/omegat/omegat.html)

Example
*You save the contents of one Wikipedia in OpenOffice.org (.odt) format.
*You have a terminology list from English to Bambara
*You have .tmx files (translation memories) from former Translations
from English to Bambara
*You create a new OmegaT project and select the files to be translated -
well then you should close the project again (this will be better in one
of the future versions)
*Copy your glossary + old translation memories in their place
*Open the project and start to translate
*While translating you will see similar sentences that were already
translated before in the translation memory match window (the so-called
partial matches - these can also be inserted automatically in the target
sentence so that you only need to modify what is different)
*While translating you will see the words of the sentence that are
present in the glossary in the glossary match window and this helps you
with your translation since you will not need to look them up in a
dictionary

In future the glossary function will be connected to Ultimate
Wiktionary, or WiktionaryZ, through a reference implementation - and
this means that all terminology that is in WiktionaryZ is also at
disposal for translations.

Well there are always thoughts about machine translation around: well
this is the way translators work - we are "helped" by the computer to do
our jobs ... now if we take these techniques and show them to many
people who can work offline as well and if these people exchange
translation memories and then their glossaries with WiktionaryZ this
means that "small" Wikipedias can have a lot of general contents quite
fast.

The next step is then: any translation can be proofread before uploading
it to the wikipedia - so the article can be worked on offline quite easily.

Upload can be done with the help of the bot (pywikipediabot) - and this
can be done by anyone - even by people who don't know the language. In
this way online and offline communities, for example of African
languages, where people cannot always access the Internet, can work out
really well.

Of course an offline-readable wikipedia would then make a lot of sense
in these languages and also some particular way to organise the project
(pages need to be marked as "being translated by" etc.) that can then be
organised also by a non native speaker.

Well so who would like to try out OmegaT for the translation of
articles? (btw. I am doing that to translate from Italian and other
languages to Neapolitan - and of course for my "ordinary work" into
German :-)

Best, Sabine

___________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice: chiama da PC a telefono a tariffe esclusive
http://it.messenger.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Creating contents for "small" Wikipedias


subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
Hi,

A little addition: search button of the same style:
  http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki2.shtml

Best regards,

Alex Bobrov____________________________________________
Indian Summer Studio                 http://indians.ru/


from_name: edward molasses

subject: [Wikitech-l] Issue with multiple language installation

body:
Hello

I have been trying to setup a MediaWiki installation (v 1.5.5) with 4
different languages (a separate MediaWiki for each language) but I've
had some trouble. The first language installation I setup is fine, but
with subsequent installations, the Navigation menu is displayed in the
language of the first installation (so German was my first installation
and French was my second, but the Navigation menu of my French
installation was in German). I was wondering if this might be caused by
choosing eAccelerator as the caching program during installation? Or it
would be a great help if anyone could point me in the right direction to
solving this.

thanks,
Andrew.


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
edward molasses wrote:
> I have been trying to setup a MediaWiki installation (v 1.5.5) with 4
> different languages (a separate MediaWiki for each language) but I've
> had some trouble. The first language installation I setup is fine, but
> with subsequent installations, the Navigation menu is displayed in the
> language of the first installation (so German was my first installation
> and French was my second, but the Navigation menu of my French
> installation was in German). I was wondering if this might be caused by
> choosing eAccelerator as the caching program during installation? Or it
> would be a great help if anyone could point me in the right direction to
> solving this.

If you are using a shared cache system (memcached or the turck/eaccelerator
internal cache), make sure that each wiki is in its own database. The database
name is used as a disambiguator in the cache.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Moin Alexander,

(Maybe we should continue this offlist :)

On Sunday 15 January 2006 20:34, Alexander Bobrov wrote:
> Tels,
>
> T> The entire old skin design is more or less flat
>
> Negative. Old buttons are bordered and gradiented.

I meant the rest of the skin (e.g. the "edit this article" docks, the menu
box etc). They are all essential flat, so the buttons should "fit" in.

> T> I think making them 3D (especially the search button!) is a solution
> in search of T> a problem :)
>
> Even in overall flat design it is highly recommended to have one's
> control (interactive) elements highlighted. Usability. The volume is
> the best way to do it.

Yes, but I think that if the entire design is "flat", then the buttons
should stand out by color, or by being darker, or by having a different
border, and not by being more 3D. It just looks inconsistent to me.

(my opinion, of course :)

For instance, if you color buttons bright orange, they will stand out,
even though they do not have a "shading" or 3D effect.

Nothing against 3D effects, but I think it doesn't fit the default skin.

> T> * The new edit buttons are nice, but apart from the 3D problem, they
> also T> suffer from reduced contrast. That might be due to JPG
> compression, but T> IMHO the black "A" was much better readable than
> your new dark grey T> version, especially because the background is now
> also more grey/silver.
>
> Not JPEG compression. Intentionally - to compensate its large,
> relatively to other pictos, strokes. But perhaps you are right. Let's
> compare:
>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki3.shtml

Definitely better.

> T> * In additon, the blue buttons stand out more, the silver ones
> almost T> vanish on the white background (since they don't have a black
> border, T> either)
>
> Another variant - to not to vanish. But it is more complex, less flat.
>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki5.shtml

Wrong URL? (the "all flat" url below is the same as this :)

> T> I think a flat button design that matches the "1px solid dark-grey"
> T> borders of the rest of the site might be a good idea - in fact, just
> like T> the current search button.
>
> I had this idea too.
>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki5d.shtml
>
> And I don't like it. It looks like a work of a man who doesn't like
> his work.

I really like it for being consistent. I would probably add a shade of
color to the background, so that the buttons stand out more. Like so:

	http://bloodgate.com/tmp/wiki_buttons_bright.png

This also adds a nice splash of color to the otherwise "silvery" page.

A related side-note: Why make the buttons images? At first I thought they
are so small because you monitor has a different resolution, but it then
occured to me they are *always* that small (silly me :), because they are
images with a fixed size. On my 1600x1200 resolution the buttons are
really really tiny.

It would be possible to replace them with some HTML code like so:

	B
	A
	Link
	...

That would allow the buttons to change with the texsize (height: 1em). It
would also allow for the buttons to be colored differently in different
skins. I think that would be worth it. [0]

Best wishes,

Tels

[0] While we are at it, move the button definitions to a config file. It
is a pain in the lower regions to add custom buttons back after each
software update...

- --
 Signed on Sun Jan 15 21:39:16 2006 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "helft den armen v?geln"  -- gegen kleinschreibung

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body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>edward molasses wrote:
>
>
>>I have been trying to setup a MediaWiki installation (v 1.5.5) with 4
>>different languages (a separate MediaWiki for each language) but I've
>>had some trouble. The first language installation I setup is fine, but
>>with subsequent installations, the Navigation menu is displayed in the
>>language of the first installation (so German was my first installation
>>and French was my second, but the Navigation menu of my French
>>installation was in German). I was wondering if this might be caused by
>>choosing eAccelerator as the caching program during installation? Or it
>>would be a great help if anyone could point me in the right direction to
>>solving this.
>>
>>
>
>If you are using a shared cache system (memcached or the turck/eaccelerator
>internal cache), make sure that each wiki is in its own database. The database
>name is used as a disambiguator in the cache.
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
I have used a shared database for the installations, so I will give it a
try with different databases. Thank you very much!

Andrew.


from_name: James

subject: [Wikitech-l] About the database dumps

body:
Looking at some comments on Wikipedia's mirrors and forks, many people have
found that their user pages were mirrored in other sites, and ultimately
their personal information out of control. So is it possible for you to stop
putting the articles in the user namespace in the dumps?

thanks,
James


subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
Tels,

T> The entire old skin design is more or less flat

Negative. Old buttons are bordered and gradiented.

T> I think making them 3D (especially the search button!) is a solution in search of
T> a problem :)

Even in overall flat design it is highly recommended to have one's
control (interactive) elements highlighted. Usability. The volume is
the best way to do it.

T> * The new edit buttons are nice, but apart from the 3D problem, they also
T> suffer from reduced contrast. That might be due to JPG compression, but
T> IMHO the black "A" was much better readable than your new dark grey
T> version, especially because the background is now also more grey/silver.

Not JPEG compression. Intentionally - to compensate its large,
relatively to other pictos, strokes. But perhaps you are right. Let's
compare:
  http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki3.shtml

T> * In additon, the blue buttons stand out more, the silver ones almost
T> vanish on the white background (since they don't have a black border,
T> either)

Another variant - to not to vanish. But it is more complex, less flat.
  http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki5.shtml

T> I think a flat button design that matches the "1px solid dark-grey"
T> borders of the rest of the site might be a good idea - in fact, just like
T> the current search button.

I had this idea too.
  http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki5d.shtml

And I don't like it. It looks like a work of a man who doesn't like
his work.

Thank you, Tels.

Alex Bobrov____________________________________________
Indian Summer Studio                 http://indians.ru/


from_name: Александр Сигачёв

subject: [Wikitech-l] Filter Recentchanges by categories

body:
> One often-mentioned solution was the ability to filter Recent changes by
> categories. Well, now you have it!
> ...
> I'd like it to be enabeled
> on some medium-sized wikipedia to determine the impact on the database
> slave servers, which might or might not be severe.

Any news?

--
Alexander Sigachov


from_name: Emilio Gonzalez

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wiki buttons design

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alexander Bobrov wrote:
> And, the last variants:
>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki6.shtml
>
>
>
> Alex Bobrov____________________________________________
> Indian Summer Studio                 http://indians.ru/

Great work Alexander, I hope your changes will be included :)

Emilio Gonzalez [Porao]
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from_name: Brock Batsell

subject: [WikiEN-l] admin violations again

body:
On Jan 14, 2006, at 5:00 PM, prgibbons at ou.edu wrote:

> If blocking me for reverting vandalism (tag placement and
> replacement with no discussion despite requests) isnt bad enough I
> am also blocked from my own user discussion page.  I want this
> violation corrected and the violating administrators warned about
> their abuses.

For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%
3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AKDRGibby

And I suggest you read up about what vandalism is and what is a
content dispute, because the exemption for 3RR only applies to the
first.

Regards,
[[en:User:Bbatsell]]
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Happy Wikipedia Day!

body:
On 1/15/06, SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Happy Wikipedia Day, everyone.  To many more...

Drinks on Jimbo! (Thanks, don't mind if I do...)

--
Sam


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [WikiEN-l] kelvSYC's take on userboxes

body:
> I suspect that I'm not the only one to understand this
> behavior in this way, for a few months ago Uncle G refused to
> create a user page to combat this assumption. (However, when
> I've asked the occasionally newbie who doesn't have a user
> page to create one, I've never been refused; I'd say that
> Uncle G was needlessly fighting a battle that didn't need to be
> fought.)

Um. Aren't we here to make an encyclopaedia?  I think I'd made a few
hundred edits before I decided to add anything to my user page. From
memory, I added a few links to my favourite pages so I could get there
easily.  Even still, I have nothing about me on my user page - just
links, and two dreaded user boxes.

I would be more concerned about someone with no edits other than a user
page. That would be a MySpace candidate...

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] admin violations again

body:
On Jan 16, 2006, at 12:02 AM, MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

> No it doesn't. 3RR can be about any edit unless there's a
> concensus. One
> should always discuss a change and try to come to an agreement
> rather than
> revert more than 3 times. If it's clearly vandalism and everyone
> but the
> vandal agrees to that, 3RR is in fact not a problem at all.
> Vandalism can
> always be reverted (though usually it's best to still not violate
> 3RR). In
> content disputes you always need to take care not to break the 3
> revert
> rule.
>
> Mgm

I don't understand what you said that is contrary to what I said.  I
quote from the 3RR policy:

	The policy states that an editor must not perform more than three
reversions, in whole or in part, on a single Wikipedia article within
24 hours of their first reversion. (This does not apply to self-
reverts or correction of simple vandalism)

I said that exemption from the 3RR rule only applies to reverting
vandalism, which is word-for-word from the policy.  The policy is
clear that content disputes do not count as "simple vandalism".

[[en:User:Bbatsell]]
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subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
And, the last variants:
  http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki6.shtml

Alex Bobrov____________________________________________
Indian Summer Studio                 http://indians.ru/


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Logo use

body:
Sam Korn wrote:
> On the subject of the recent introduction of Wikimedia's visual
> identity guidelines [1], I came across several images (one of which I
> apparently created myself, though I don't remember doing so) which
> contravene these guidelines.  Angela has made a list of these on Meta
> [2].  Most of these don't seem to be intrinsically harmful to the
> Foundation's copyright or give the impression that the Foundation
> endorses any concept or group that it in fact does not.
>
> However, there are some images that do concern me.  There are two
> images created by Cool Cat [3] for a group named the "Counter
> Vandalism Unit" [4], a group that aims to facilitate and improve
> vandal fighting.  The images are logos for the group.  One [5]
> incorporates the WMF logo, the other [6] the Wikipedia logo.
>
> Cool Cat was given provisional permission by Anthere to use these
> images before the above guidelines were created. [7]

Correction please.

I did not give any permission at all for use of that logo.

On my talk page, I answered : [1]

Hmmm, an immediate question comes to my mind... where will this bot be
active ? Likely on the english wikipedia, or possibly on other
wikipedias ? If so, why using the wikimedia foundation logo and not the
wikipedia one ? There is no reason to use the foundation logo as the
foundation is not involved in this bot activity. I fear it could be
perceived wrongly. I myself see no specific problem in having the bot
with the wikipedia logo... but since it will appear as a community bot,
I think you must get approval from the wikipedia community to use it.
The only question left is "where will this bot be active ?" Ant

-------

Later, there was a bit of a conflict on the issue and I was asked to
confirm I gave permission. If I remember well, I confirmed I did not
give it.

I did not change my mind since then.

-------

Months later, I still think this logo is a bad idea, because it gives
the impression the Foundation is supporting the Counter Vandalism Unit.
The Foundation supports is entirely irrelevant here. Fighting vandalism
is a community issue.

Just a few days ago, a similar logo appeared on the french wikipedia and
I must confess, I did a speedy deletion... (on the grounds it received
no authorization... a bit borderline :-))

-------

The current guidelines are for the way the logo could appear, not for
its internal uses. I think the change you are suggesting would fit in
another definition of its use.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anthere#Couter_Vandalism_Unit

Ant

> However, the Counter Vandalism Unit does have some opposition within
> the community.  I would note that I myself am in disagreement with
> much of its structure and attitudes, particularly some comments that
> imply that the Unit is the only way in which to fight vandalism.
> However, just to avoid any undue comments, I am sending this post not
> to request removal but just _reappraisal_ of the situation, which I
> see as potentially harmful.
>
> The logos give the impression that the Unit is Foundation-sanctioned.
> This idea is encouraged by the proliferation of the Foundation logo
> attached to Unit-related matters (most notably the infamous
> userboxes).
>
> With this in mind, may I suggest that the provisional permission
> granted to Cool Cat be at least reconsidered in light of the new
> guidelines.
>
> Happy Wikipedia Day!
>
> [1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_visual_identity_guidelines
> [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_logo_derivatives
> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cool_Cat
> [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Counter_Vandalism_Unit
> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CVU2.PNG
> [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CVU2.5.PNG
> [7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CVU2.5.PNG
>
> --
> Sam


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Logo use


subject: [Wikitech-l] About the database dumps

body:
James wrote:
> Looking at some comments on Wikipedia's mirrors and forks, many people have
> found that their user pages were mirrored in other sites, and ultimately
> their personal information out of control. So is it possible for you to stop
> putting the articles in the user namespace in the dumps?

For several months we've had a version of the dump available with discussion and
user pages excluded, which is recommended for mirror-type usage.

Please see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_dumps

Note that we *ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT* stop producing dumps that do include those
pages. They *MUST* be available for complete distributed backup of data and
other legitimate usage. As always, don't include anything on Wikipedia that you
wouldn't ever want to see copied.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: Interiot

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fair use images on user pages and enforcement

body:
> I doubht there is any such feature at the moment, though it might be
> possible implement by building on the existing "bad image" feature,
> effectively turn anyting labeled with a "fair use" template into a "bad
> image" with regards to the User: namespace (and others). You can't hard
> code this in because templates change, new are added and so forth, but a
> list in the MediaWiki namespace of "blacklisted" templates (or categories
> if that is easier) might be doable.
>
> In the meantime someone with toolserver access could relatively easily
> make a bot that automaticaly remove anyting "fair use" from userpages,
> userbox templates and things like that.

I have a report page that lists user pages sorted by the number of fair-use images.  (it might take
a while to load)

    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/queries/en_fairusers

A synopsis:

    241 [[User:HeraldicBot/Gallery]]
    229 [[User:Gram123]]
    226 [[User:CyberSkull/Images/Icons]]
    208 [[User:Cburnett/Images]]
    181 [[User:CyberSkull/Images]]
    176 [[User:WolfenSilva]]
    143 [[User:YUL89YYZ/images/DVD_covers]]
    119 [[User:Palm_dogg/Images]]
    116 [[User:Electionworld/worldwide]]
    112 [[User:Johan_Elisson/football_badges]]
    107 [[User:Dlloyd]]
    100 [[User:Cyde/template_check]]

Most of them are "a list of everything I'm uploaded".  It's fantastic that they've uploaded so many
images, but it would be still better if all fair-use [[Image:...]] were turned into [[:Image:...]]
links.  Do these look like the sort of things that should be changed by a bot?  Given how helpful
these users have been, I would be more in favor of discussing it on their talk pages first.

        (for what it's worth, I'm counting any image on en.wikipedia.org that's under
        Category:Fair_use_images, which contains 112 subcategories.  I think that's the slow part
        though)

-Interiot


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] test.wikipedia.org

body:
On 1/15/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is? Where can we download his ~?

I set up a copy of the old testwiki at
http://avar.lir.dk/mw/testwiki/wiki/Main_Page


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] admin violations again

body:
On 1/16/06, Brock Batsell <wikipedia at theskeptik.com> wrote:
>
> For reference:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%
> 3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AKDRGibby
>
> And I suggest you read up about what vandalism is and what is a
> content dispute, because the exemption for 3RR only applies to the
> first.
>
> Regards,
> [[en:User:Bbatsell]]

No it doesn't. 3RR can be about any edit unless there's a concensus. One
should always discuss a change and try to come to an agreement rather than
revert more than 3 times. If it's clearly vandalism and everyone but the
vandal agrees to that, 3RR is in fact not a problem at all. Vandalism can
always be reverted (though usually it's best to still not violate 3RR). In
content disputes you always need to take care not to break the 3 revert
rule.

Mgm


subject: [WikiEN-l] admin violations again

body:
On 1/16/06, Brock Batsell <wikipedia at theskeptik.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 16, 2006, at 12:02 AM, MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
>
> > No it doesn't. 3RR can be about any edit unless there's a
> > concensus. One
> > should always discuss a change and try to come to an agreement
> > rather than
> > revert more than 3 times. If it's clearly vandalism and everyone
> > but the
> > vandal agrees to that, 3RR is in fact not a problem at all.
> > Vandalism can
> > always be reverted (though usually it's best to still not violate
> > 3RR). In
> > content disputes you always need to take care not to break the 3
> > revert
> > rule.
> >
> > Mgm
>
> I don't understand what you said that is contrary to what I said.  I
> quote from the 3RR policy:
>
>        The policy states that an editor must not perform more than three
> reversions, in whole or in part, on a single Wikipedia article within
> 24 hours of their first reversion. (This does not apply to self-
> reverts or correction of simple vandalism)
>
> I said that exemption from the 3RR rule only applies to reverting
> vandalism, which is word-for-word from the policy.  The policy is
> clear that content disputes do not count as "simple vandalism".
>
> [[en:User:Bbatsell]]

My bad. I didn't take the word exemption into account when I read that.
You're absolutely right. Sorry.

Mgm


from_name: Александр Сигачёв

subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
> And, the last variants:
>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki6.shtml

I think, it's not good idea to use English word "Link" on button.

--
Alexander Sigachov


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
????????? ??????? schrieb:
>> One often-mentioned solution was the ability to filter Recent changes by
>> categories. Well, now you have it!
>> ...
>> I'd like it to be enabeled
>> on some medium-sized wikipedia to determine the impact on the database
>> slave servers, which might or might not be severe.
>>
>
> Any news?
>
Nope, still waiting for someone to turn it on...

Magnus

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from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unlicensed use of images

body:
On 1/13/06, Michael Snow <wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> 1. Many, if not most, photos on US government websites are *not* in the
> public domain. Like many companies, the government makes considerable
> use of stock photos. If the site doesn't clearly indicate that the image
> was created by a federal government employee, you should assume that it
> wasn't.

One additional bit on this: many government agencies are run by contractors,
and contractors can have entirely different (i.e. non-free) intellectual
property rights than "employees of the federal government", *even* if the
work is done under apparently government auspices and entirely with
government money. For example, Sandia National Laboratories is a U.S.
Department of Energy National Laboratory but it has and claims the rights to
retain copyrights on its materials, as is spelled out in the contracts with
the DOE and the company who manages the lab, Lockheed Martin. So even if the
agency says it created the content, it may still not be free in many
instances! (This comes up primarily with the many DOE labs, which are all
run by contractors. I've tried to post the copyright statements that I could
find of the individual labs to the talk page fo the PD-USGov-DOE template.
Most are not free enough for Wikipedia.)

FF


from_name: Domas Mituzas

body:
Hello,

> Nope, still waiting for someone to turn it on...

Have you guys seen Special:Recentchangeslinked ? it works on
categories as well.

Domas


subject: [Wikitech-l] Subversion coming

body:
SourceForge has begun a beta rollout of Subversion version-control service. I've
signed us up for this, so at some point in the next few days hopefully we should
have source over in SVN instead of / in addition to CVS.

In addition to the general niceties of SVN (atomic multi-file commits!),
anonymous access will not be delayed as it is on SF's CVS. This means that
people who aren't signed up on our sourceforge project will now be able to get
commits immediately with a 'svn up'.

Subversion's command-line interface is mostly like CVS, so Unixy types shouldn't
have much trouble getting used to it. There's a TortoiseSVN for Windows types
who are used to TortoiseCVS.

Some docs:

https://sourceforge.net/docs/E09
https://sourceforge.net/docs/B01/en/#svn_client

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: Kirill Lokshin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like the doll-collector's wiki is saying "bugger Wikipedia" and
> picking a CC license specifically to maintain incompatibility -
> they've been put off the idea of Wikipedia *that badly*.
>
> So that's two forks now. Yay!
>
> The thing is, this is one I just happened to know about. How many
> others have happened that we don't know about? Just how bad is our
> image out there after the webcomics debacle?
>
> (And I understand a Wired News reporter is sniffing around the
> webcomics debacle. Fantastic. Perhaps if it becomes a *public*
> embarrassment something might actually get done about the AFD
> problem.)

So we've got two options:

1. Fix AFD.
2. Bludgeon Stallman into making the GFDL compatible with CC.

I really don't know which is the more futile undertaking, at this point ;-)

Kirill Lokshin


from_name: jayjg

subject: [WikiEN-l] AC elections

body:
On 1/16/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anyone not voted as yet? Hop to it. I just got around to it at last.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_January_2006

As per the arbcom list discussion, I had planned to abstain from voting.

Jay.


from_name: Snowspinner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webhosting sans userboxes

body:
I have left a polite note on the talk page.

-Phil

On Jan 16, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Phil Boswell wrote:

> "Alphax (Wikipedia email)"
> <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:43CBB7DA.1020102 at gmail.com...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Vufors
>
> Have a quiet word, enquiring when this data might grace our UFO-
> related
> articles :-)
> --
> Phil
> [[en:User:Phil Boswell]]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] admin violations again

body:
On Jan 16, 2006, at 3:13 AM, MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

> My bad. I didn't take the word exemption into account when I read
> that.
> You're absolutely right. Sorry.
>
> Mgm

Oh good, I was afraid I'd completely misunderstood a policy for a
whole year!  Thanks for the clarification.

[[en:User:Bbatsell]]

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
Well, and the latter point is more of a long-term goal. No bludgeoning
should take place until we've sorted out a well-organized list of other
things which would be nice to fix a well.

(Also, I don't know what license the doll-collectors picked, but I bet they
picked a non-commercial one, which would be incompatible no matter what. I
suspect most people gravitate or will gravitate towards nc licenses when
they make-their-own-wiki for semi-obvious reasons.)

FF

On 1/16/06, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/16/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Looks like the doll-collector's wiki is saying "bugger Wikipedia" and
> > picking a CC license specifically to maintain incompatibility -
> > they've been put off the idea of Wikipedia *that badly*.
> >
> > So that's two forks now. Yay!
> >
> > The thing is, this is one I just happened to know about. How many
> > others have happened that we don't know about? Just how bad is our
> > image out there after the webcomics debacle?
> >
> > (And I understand a Wired News reporter is sniffing around the
> > webcomics debacle. Fantastic. Perhaps if it becomes a *public*
> > embarrassment something might actually get done about the AFD
> > problem.)
>
> So we've got two options:
>
> 1. Fix AFD.
> 2. Bludgeon Stallman into making the GFDL compatible with CC.
>
> I really don't know which is the more futile undertaking, at this point
> ;-)
>
> Kirill Lokshin
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Alexander Bobrov

subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
>> And, the last variants:
>>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki6.shtml

??> I think, it's not good idea to use English word "Link" on button.

Why?

What do you suggest?

Alex Bobrov____________________________________________
Indian Summer Studio                 http://indians.ru/

......................................................................
God is Real, unless declared as Integer;
......................................................................


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re:Re:About the database dumps

body:
I discussed this in IRC, but I think we should make whether it contains user
database or not clearer. People just seem to be clicking "full dump" without
actually knowing the content. Maybe a through description about what each
dumps contain?

-- james
For several months we've had a version of the dump available with discussion
and

user pages excluded, which is recommended for mirror-type usage.

Please see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_dumps

Note that we *ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT* stop producing dumps that do include those
pages. They **MUST** be available for complete distributed backup of data and
other legitimate usage. As always, don't include anything on Wikipedia that you
wouldn't ever want to see copied.

-- brion vibber (brion  <at>  pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wiki buttons design

body:
EG> Great work Alexander, I hope your changes will be included :)
EG> Emilio Gonzalez [Porao]

Thank you, Emilio.

Alex Bobrov____________________________________________
Indian Summer Studio                 http://indians.ru/

......................................................................
Time flies like arrow; fruit flies like banana.
......................................................................


body:
James wrote:
> I discussed this in IRC, but I think we should make whether it contains user
> database or not clearer. People just seem to be clicking "full dump" without
> actually knowing the content. Maybe a through description about what each
> dumps contain?

The new dump system will contain this.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: James Thompson

subject: [WikiEN-l] I was wrongfully acused of vandalizing...

body:
  Dick Cheney's entry.

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos ? Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
 Photo Books. You design it and we?ll bind it!


from_name: Rob

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
I don't understand why collaborating on and writing a strong set of
guidelines like WP:MUSIC can't be a simple solution to problems about
webcomics, dolls, or whatever.  There may or may not be problems with AFD,
but it seems that people would rather use conflicts about (insert article
type here) as an excuse to attack AFD instead of working on what seems to me
to be a simple, much less contentious solution.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
A) Most of the horrifying incivility in the webcomics debate actually
came in trying to write guidelines.
B) The MUSIC guidelines are deeply, deeply flawed.

-Phil

On Jan 16, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Rob wrote:

> I don't understand why collaborating on and writing a strong set of
> guidelines like WP:MUSIC can't be a simple solution to problems about
> webcomics, dolls, or whatever.  There may or may not be problems
> with AFD,
> but it seems that people would rather use conflicts about (insert
> article
> type here) as an excuse to attack AFD instead of working on what
> seems to me
> to be a simple, much less contentious solution.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Wikiacc

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2. Bludgeon Stallman into making the GFDL compatible with CC.

If that happens, it's most likely to be exclusive to CC-BY-SA, as none
of the others are close in spirit to the GFDL. I haven't seen the doll
collectors wiki yet, but it probably does _not_ use BY-SA for that
reason.

--
--~~~~
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wikiacc


from_name: Thomas Flammger

subject: [Wikitech-l] Deleted history view permissions

body:
I just discovered Kate's tool and was curious about my deleted edits.
I'd like to see which edits were deleted so that I can become a better
editor (avoiding those mistakes). Is there a plan to reinstate this
functionality?

TheLimbicOne


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
I have just added the following text to my userpage.

==Expertise and deletion==

If you can verify for me that you are a subject expert in a subject
considered notable enough to include on Wikiedia, I will, on your say-
so, close any deletion debate as "keep" within your field of
expertise, and will undelete any articles within your field that you
say are notable.

It's a small step, but it's what I can do.

-Phil
On Jan 16, 2006, at 12:04 PM, David Gerard wrote:

> Looks like the doll-collector's wiki is saying "bugger Wikipedia" and
> picking a CC license specifically to maintain incompatibility -
> they've been put off the idea of Wikipedia *that badly*.
>
> So that's two forks now. Yay!
>
> The thing is, this is one I just happened to know about. How many
> others have happened that we don't know about? Just how bad is our
> image out there after the webcomics debacle?
>
> (And I understand a Wired News reporter is sniffing around the
> webcomics debacle. Fantastic. Perhaps if it becomes a *public*
> embarrassment something might actually get done about the AFD
> problem.)
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Domas Mituzas schrieb:
> Hello,
>
>> Nope, still waiting for someone to turn it on...
>
> Have you guys seen Special:Recentchangeslinked ? it works on
> categories as well.
Yes, but not on their subcategories. So, "Related Changes" of Physics
shows only the changes made to articles *directly* in
[[Category:Physics]], not to those in [[Category:Quantum mechanics]].

Magnus

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, Snowspinner <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have just added the following text to my userpage.
>
> ==Expertise and deletion==
>
> If you can verify for me that you are a subject expert in a subject
> considered notable enough to include on Wikiedia, I will, on your say-
> so, close any deletion debate as "keep" within your field of
> expertise, and will undelete any articles within your field that you
> say are notable.
>
> It's a small step, but it's what I can do.

Going for that coveted "Admin with the most RFCs filed against him"
spot, I see ;-)

It's a nice sentiment, but the approach really won't scale that well
(unless a lot more admins go along with it) and will result in lots of
upset users.  We really need broader institutional changes to the
deletion process.

Kirill Lokshin


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't know what license they've picked. But you appear to be
> phrasing the above so as to imply that us disgusting people so much
> they don't even want to bother with Wikipedia is not in fact a
> problem, if they picked a non-commercial license anyway, so we can
> just ignore having had that effect on people. Huh?
>
>
That's not what I was trying to imply, and sorry if it came off that way. I
put it in parentheses as an apparently unsuccessful attempt to make clear it
was somewhat of a side-comment from the other issues, and in fact as a
comment it lends more to your line of argumentation than a contrary one.
That is: if people fork, they'll probably pick non-commercial licenses,
because most people are more worried about being "commercially exploited"
than they are about creating "truly free" material. Which, IF true, means
that most forks would be totally incompatible with Wikipedia even if we did
change the more glaring difficulties with the GFDL.

FF


subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
On 1/16/06, Alexander Bobrov <director at indians.ru> wrote:
>
> >> And, the last variants:
> >>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki6.shtml
>
> ??> I think, it's not good idea to use English word "Link" on button.
>
> Why?
>
> What do you suggest?

Something that conveys the idea without requiring you to know English,
like having an italic letter conveys the idea of italic text, bold
letter the idea of bold text etc

B.t.w. these are quite nice, could you release them under the GPL-2 or
later and provide the sourcefiles for them so they could potentially
be included in MW?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On Jan 16, 2006, at 2:51 PM, Kirill Lokshin wrote:
>
> Going for that coveted "Admin with the most RFCs filed against him"
> spot, I see ;-)
>

Don't I already have that?

> It's a nice sentiment, but the approach really won't scale that well
> (unless a lot more admins go along with it) and will result in lots of
> upset users.  We really need broader institutional changes to the
> deletion process.

I agree. But it's still the best thing that I can do, right now, to
deal with a mounting disaster. Hopefully other admins will go along
with it and we can get a kind of movement thing going. I made a
template {{expert undeletion}}. Add it to your userpage. :)

-Phil


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>
>I should add: it's distinctly odd and disquieting to see so many people
>reacting to this with apparent denial - claiming it couldn't really be
>because Wikipedia has places that threat people badly enough that outsiders
>don't want to risk it any more, it must be some other barely-plausible
>reason. (I remember geni trying to make this out to be the case with the
>Comixpedia fork even when it was explicitly because AFD were being complete
>arses.) This is actually a problem and I submit that it's a serious one.
>Is two enough? Will it be a problem with three or four? It's not the fact
>of the forks, it's the reason for them.
>
I submit that the AfD situation with respect to forks is a symptom
of our lack of consensus on WP's desired scope and depth. For
instance, I and others can (and have) written articles on plants and
animals for which the Google hits are down in the teens, and for
which there may be only a handful of mentions in print. Arguably,
these species are only of interest to specialists, and not appropriate
for a "general encyclopedia", but rarely do they get listed on AfD as
non-notable. Conversely, a doll manufacturer with a half-million
customers could easily get listed. Is the obscure species really
more "notable" then?

As long as the definition of notability gets left in the hands of AfD
habitues, that's what outsiders are going to use to determine whether
their interest falls inside or outside WP's scope. I don't think all
forks are avoidable, for instance if specialists want to build a wiki
that is used for research and thus mixes up published and original
material. But right now outsiders have no page they can look at that
will clearly tell them whether their planned level of depth is
considered appropriate for WP, and so AfD ends up being a sort of
crude measuring tool.

Stan


from_name: James

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re:Re: Re:Re:About the database dumps

body:
Sounds good.
--
James

Brion wrote:
>The new dump system will contain this.
>
>-- brion vibber (brion  <at>  pobox.com)


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re[4]: wiki buttons design

body:
"?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason" <avarab at gmail.com>
wrote in message
news:51dd1af80601160726v47403bf3wfccaa1f62dde959a at mail.gmail.com...
> On 1/16/06, Alexander Bobrov <director at indians.ru> wrote:
>> >> And, the last variants:
>> >>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki6.shtml
>> ??> I think, it's not good idea to use English word "Link" on button.
>> Why?
>> What do you suggest?
> Something that conveys the idea without requiring you to know English,
> like having an italic letter conveys the idea of italic text, bold
> letter the idea of bold text etc

Something like a tilde surrounded by double square brackets would probably
be appropriate:

[[~]]

You could stretch the tilde, or something to make it clear it's a
placeholder signifying that there should be at least one entire word in
there.
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


body:
"Alphax (Wikipedia email)"
<alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43CBB7DA.1020102 at gmail.com...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Vufors

Have a quiet word, enquiring when this data might grace our UFO-related
articles :-)
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] AC elections

body:
Anyone not voted as yet? Hop to it. I just got around to it at last.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_January_2006

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
> I should add: it's distinctly odd and disquieting to see so many people
> reacting to this with apparent denial - claiming it couldn't really be
> because Wikipedia has places that threat people badly enough that outsiders
> don't want to risk it any more, it must be some other barely-plausible
> reason. (I remember geni trying to make this out to be the case with the
> Comixpedia fork even when it was explicitly because AFD were being complete
> arses.) This is actually a problem and I submit that it's a serious one.
> Is two enough? Will it be a problem with three or four? It's not the fact
> of the forks, it's the reason for them.

I'll point out that there are certain portions of the Wikipedia
population which LIKE the culture of AFD.  These portions are quite
vehemently against any major reform; and so long as AFD continues to
operate (and it will, barring another Uncle Ed incident) they have no
incentive to negotiate over the issue.

Kirill Lokshin


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 1/16/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know what license they've picked. But you appear to be
> > phrasing the above so as to imply that us disgusting people so much
> > they don't even want to bother with Wikipedia is not in fact a
> > problem, if they picked a non-commercial license anyway, so we can
> > just ignore having had that effect on people. Huh?
> >
> >
> That's not what I was trying to imply, and sorry if it came off that way.
> I put it in parentheses as an apparently unsuccessful attempt to make clear
> it was somewhat of a side-comment from the other issues, and in fact as a
> comment it lends more to your line of argumentation than a contrary one.
> That is: if people fork, they'll probably pick non-commercial licenses,
> because most people are more worried about being "commercially exploited"
> than they are about creating "truly free" material. Which, IF true, means
> that most forks would be totally incompatible with Wikipedia even if we did
> change the more glaring difficulties with the GFDL.
>
>

Adding one more point to this: CC licenses (even in their long, "legal"
form, but obviously their "short" forms too) are also much easier to make
sense of than the GFDL, and were created with much attention to the types of
interests someone making content on a Wiki might have, in my opinion.

(Personally, I don't think the GFDL has much of a future in comparison with
the CC licenses, but of course there were no CC licenses around when
Wikipedia was created. Sigh...)

FF


from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Logo use

body:
I'd suggest waiting a couple of weeks for any formal decision on this
since we're in the process of forming some new Foundation committees,
one of which will be delegated the authority to make this sort of
decision.

Angela


subject: [Foundation-l] Logo use


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
Looks like the doll-collector's wiki is saying "bugger Wikipedia" and
picking a CC license specifically to maintain incompatibility -
they've been put off the idea of Wikipedia *that badly*.

So that's two forks now. Yay!

The thing is, this is one I just happened to know about. How many
others have happened that we don't know about? Just how bad is our
image out there after the webcomics debacle?

(And I understand a Wired News reporter is sniffing around the
webcomics debacle. Fantastic. Perhaps if it becomes a *public*
embarrassment something might actually get done about the AFD
problem.)

- d.


body:
Interiot wrote:

>
>I have a report page that lists user pages sorted by the number of fair-use images.  (it might take
>a while to load)
>
>    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/queries/en_fairusers
>
>[...]
>
>Most of them are "a list of everything I'm uploaded".  It's fantastic that they've uploaded so many
>images, but it would be still better if all fair-use [[Image:...]] were turned into [[:Image:...]]
>links.  Do these look like the sort of things that should be changed by a bot?  Given how helpful
>these users have been, I would be more in favor of discussing it on their talk pages first.
>
>
Heh, I have a couple of those, used for tracking purposes. The
:Image: syntax would serve just as well for detecting deletions,
but not over-upload vandalism. One could argue that if such pages
are used for image management and maintenance, they are no more
violations of fair use than [[Category:Fair use images]] and its
subcategories, which if you think about it, are themselves galleries
of fair-use images appearing elsewhere than in their proper contexts
(being auto-generated via category mechanism doesn't get you off
the hook!).

Stan


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Phil Boswell:
> Something like a tilde surrounded by double square brackets would probably
> be appropriate:
>
> [[~]]

Please, no cryptic symbols like that. The point of a toolbar is to make
it intuitive to format wikitext. A newbie neither knows what double
square brackets mean nor what "~" could stand for. The blue, underlined
"Ab" works perfectly well. Sure, it's Latin characters, but they are
internationally recognizable.

Best,

Erik


from_name: Ben Emmel

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 100

body:
On 1/11/06, Mason Patrick E SSgt 28 MUNS/MXWKB <
Patrick.Mason at ellsworth.af.mil> wrote:
>
> I am going to have to agree with the doll people about the current state
> of wiki... in fact when I have made my three months and 1000 edits and I
> become an admin, I will be an admin for the little people... why bother with
> all of the political crap... if it seems like someone is abusing their
> power, I will do everything in my power to stop it all the while giving the
> little people like the doll specialists a fair shake.
>
>
I don't think you will get many supports if you plan to throw policy and
consensus to the wind in favor of little, non-notable people.

--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
bratsche1 at gmail.com
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake


subject: [WikiEN-l] AC elections

body:
Jayjg wrote:
>On 1/16/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyone not voted as yet? Hop to it. I just got around to it at last.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_January_2006

>As per the arbcom list discussion, I had planned to abstain from voting.

Yeah, but I'm not running ;-D

(Take care what laws of the universe you notice, as the rule may
notice you. "On Wikipedia, the reward for a job well done is another
three jobs" - I got another two yesterday. James F. is currently
running at thirty-six.)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
Fastfission wrote:

>(Also, I don't know what license the doll-collectors picked, but I bet they
>picked a non-commercial one, which would be incompatible no matter what. I
>suspect most people gravitate or will gravitate towards nc licenses when
>they make-their-own-wiki for semi-obvious reasons.)

I don't know what license they've picked. But you appear to be
phrasing the above so as to imply that us disgusting people so much
they don't even want to bother with Wikipedia is not in fact a
problem, if they picked a non-commercial license anyway, so we can
just ignore having had that effect on people. Huh?

- d.


from_name: Yongho Kim

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Difference between "quoting" and "using" in Fair Use
	(re ko)

body:
I am [[es/ko/en:User:Yonghokim]] and I am having a copyright law
interpretation debate (it's a rather silly one) with [[en/ko:User:WonYong]]
at the korean language wikipedia.

In the course of it, I argued that Fair Use is about using the image (e.g.
the Fair Use image or text can be used independent of other textual
context). He then argued that Fair Use is only about "quoting". I need some
advice on this - I am looking for a counterproof that the general academic
practice of quoting up to 5% of a source is NOT what Fair Use stands for.
Something like a portion in the US Copyright Law that mentions academic
quotations.

-------------------

In case my above dispute-solving-approach is mistaken, I'll introduce the
context as I understand it.

WonYong is making the following claims:

1) Uploading images in ko is not using it, we are merely uploading them to
"quote them" in Wikipedia documents.

2) Therefore South Korean Copyright Law regarding academic and media
"quotation" applies to these images - we can use anything as long as it
abides by SK CRL Chapter 6 (Limitations to Intellectual Property Rights),
Art. 25. Said clause states:

?25? (??? ???? ??) ??? ???? ????????????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???
? ??.

My translation: Art. 25 (Citation/Quotation of copyrighted work accessible
to the public) Copyrighted work accessible to the public can be quoted for
media, criticism, education, and research, within a justified range and in
pursuance to fair custom. http://tinyurl.com/a7frg

My understanding is that under Fair Use you can make copies of a copyrighted
work. For instance, you can photocopy a work of art and distribute it in
class for discussion. SKCRL 25 would not allow this. SKCRL is merely
spelling out the fact that you can quote verbatim up to 5% of a source when
writing a scholarly paper.

3) When I pointed out this to him, he told me that I "misunderstood Fair
Use" and that Fair Use is pretty much the same thing as SKCRL 25. Americans
are doing it, we have the samel law, why can't we do it?

4) Of course then there is the issue of Mr. WonYong thinking that the Korean
Language Wikipedia should abide by South Korean Law. I've had serious NPOV
disputes with him over this - suffice to say that he introduced the idea of
a "South Korea-specific NPOV". I'll post on this on a separate email.

There is some previous discussion that spilled into the English Language
Village Pump at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Lawfully citing
copyrighted images]] ( http://tinyurl.com/7v2pa ) If any of you read korean
and want to check out the current situation, just come to our Village Pump
(???) - there's at least 7 subheadings created by WonYong that pretty much
argue variants of the same thing.

Yongho


from_name: John Lee

subject: [WikiEN-l] kelvSYC's take on userboxes

body:
Geoff Burling wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:
>
>
>
>>>If a user has made enough edits to articles that they are able to move
>>>pages and edit semi-protected pages, they have contributed enough that
>>>they should be able to create a userpage. Userpages should be reserved
>>>for those who are writing the encyclopedia; WP:NOT a webhost.
>>>
>>>
>>I think this would have unintended negative consequences. When I register
>>an account at a new Wikimedia project one of the first edits I make is
>>usually to my userpage to let people know where I'm coming from and where
>>I can most easily be contacted.
>>
>>
>>
>One useful clue, in fact, to the intents of a new user is how many edits
>pass before she/he does create a userpage. If a new user makes more than
>a few (say 10 or 20 edits) without creating a userpage, it raises doubts
>in my mind whether that person wants to be part of a community devoted
>to creaing an encyclopedia -- or has just dropped in to agitate for a
>specific POV, or to cause trouble.
>
>I suspect that I'm not the only one to understand this behavior in this
>way, for a few months ago Uncle G refused to create a user page to combat
>this assumption. (However, when I've asked the occasionally newbie who
>doesn't have a user page to create one, I've never been refused; I'd
>say that Uncle G was needlessly fighting a battle that didn't need to be
>fought.)
>
>Geoff
>
>
>
I think I made a few hundred edits without creating a userpage.

John Lee
([[User:Johnleemk]])


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
On 16/01/06, Alexander Bobrov <director at indians.ru> wrote:
> Of course, I will. I made these buttons specially for Wikipedia.
> But to my shame I never used GPL before. How can I do it? Please be my
> guide.

See http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html

But for present purposes, just posting a link to the source files
(i.e. the most editable form of your images) to this list, with a
comment like "these are hereby under the GPL" is fine, since the idea
is to incorporate them into MediaWiki, at which point the general
licensing info will cover them anyway.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [Foundation-l] Promotion of Wikimedian projects in Serbia

body:
On 1/16/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at mutualaid.org> wrote:
> In this moment I started to think that we have more then enough
> promotion in media ;)
>
> - 11. 1. 2005. I was talking 45 minutes on Radio Belgrade 2 about
> Wikipedia, other Wikimedian projects and about WMF and WM SCG.
>
> - 15. 1. 2005. (yesterday) we had usual meeting at Sunday, but with
> more then 30 people. Half of them was from Linux User Group of
> Belgrade which are willing to help to Wikipedia, too. They found that
> we (on sr:) don't have Jimbo's biography and they would do it :) Also,
> they would help us in the project "spoken Wikipedia".
>
> - 16. 1. 2005. (today) B92 (the main Internet news portal in Serbia)
> made an article about Wikipedia at the top of their culture section.
> They promoted our presentation/discussion for Thursday.
> (http://www.b92.net/kultura/index.php?view=2&did=14641)
>
> - 17. 1. 2005. (tomorrow) our PR Jovana will talk seven minutes on one
> (not so big) television (Art) from Belgrade.
>
> - 19. 1. 2005. (Thursday) we would have presentation/discussion about
> Wikipedia in the best place for it in Belgrade (Youth Cultural
> Center).
>
> - 28. 1. 2005. we would have projection of the movie Revolution OS in
> the cinema of Youth Cultural Center.
>
> - Between 30. 1. 2005. and 9. 2. 2005. I would be in Slovenia and
> Croatia and I would talk about Wikipedia with Wikipedians from
> Slovenia and Croatia. I would talk about Serbian Wikipedian community
> on University of Ljubljana (thanks to Roman Maurer).
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>

That's great, Milos, congratulations. I'll just ask: are you keeping a
record of all this? (Just simply what happened, and when would be
good.) I ask this for slightly selfish reasons - I'll get in touch
with you personally about it.

Cormac / Cormaggio


from_name: Kirill Lokshin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's not an issue of likeing it. It's more an issue of all the
> alturnatives being worse. With the exception of PWD they all move
> power away from the community.

So do you see the existence of SfD as a bad thing, then?

Kirill Lokshin


from_name: Milos Rancic

body:
In this moment I started to think that we have more then enough
promotion in media ;)

- 11. 1. 2005. I was talking 45 minutes on Radio Belgrade 2 about
Wikipedia, other Wikimedian projects and about WMF and WM SCG.

- 15. 1. 2005. (yesterday) we had usual meeting at Sunday, but with
more then 30 people. Half of them was from Linux User Group of
Belgrade which are willing to help to Wikipedia, too. They found that
we (on sr:) don't have Jimbo's biography and they would do it :) Also,
they would help us in the project "spoken Wikipedia".

- 16. 1. 2005. (today) B92 (the main Internet news portal in Serbia)
made an article about Wikipedia at the top of their culture section.
They promoted our presentation/discussion for Thursday.
(http://www.b92.net/kultura/index.php?view=2&did=14641)

- 17. 1. 2005. (tomorrow) our PR Jovana will talk seven minutes on one
(not so big) television (Art) from Belgrade.

- 19. 1. 2005. (Thursday) we would have presentation/discussion about
Wikipedia in the best place for it in Belgrade (Youth Cultural
Center).

- 28. 1. 2005. we would have projection of the movie Revolution OS in
the cinema of Youth Cultural Center.

- Between 30. 1. 2005. and 9. 2. 2005. I would be in Slovenia and
Croatia and I would talk about Wikipedia with Wikipedians from
Slovenia and Croatia. I would talk about Serbian Wikipedian community
on University of Ljubljana (thanks to Roman Maurer).


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Promotion of Wikimedian projects in Serbia


from_name: Mike Kuklinski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Conlang Wikipedia

body:
Hello,
    I know that this would never go on 'officially' for Wikipedia, but
if I assembled a Wikipedia on one of my servers for my conlang,
Dasprach, and it had substantial amounts of information (better than
most of the 'real' Wikipedias), do you think it would be allowed for me
to move my user-page for Dasprach
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Antman/Dasprach) (an improved
version) to the main namespace?

Thanks,
M. Kuklinski


from_name: Matt Brown

body:
On 1/16/06, Justin Cormack <justin at specialbusservice.com> wrote:
> Helpful? In what way is uploading hundreds of fair use images
> helpful? Upload more than a few and its
> no longer fair use its wholesale copying, and quite obviously illegal.

I don't see it as necessarily so.  An editor who's been here a long
time and made a lot of contributions may have uploaded, over time,
hundreds of fair use images without doing "wholesale copying".  And
the legality of it depends on the fair use rationale, doesn't it?

-Matt


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/17/06, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 1/16/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > It's not an issue of likeing it. It's more an issue of all the
> > > alturnatives being worse. With the exception of PWD they all move
> > > power away from the community.
> >
> > So do you see the existence of SfD as a bad thing, then?
> >
> > Kirill Lokshin
>
> Err why should I?

See SPUI (I believe - it may have been somebody else) complaining that
the SfD regulars were doing funny things with stub redirects.

Or, somewhat more generally, would you be opposed to the creation of
"Webcomics for deletion", "Computer and video games for deletion", "U.
S. streets for deletion", etc.?

Kirill Lokshin


body:
On 1/16/06, Cormac Lawler <cormaggio at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's great, Milos, congratulations. I'll just ask: are you keeping a
> record of all this? (Just simply what happened, and when would be
> good.) I ask this for slightly selfish reasons - I'll get in touch
> with you personally about it.

I saw what is your field of interest :) and I can say that you would
like the information that we have reports for every meeting from the
first meeting of Serbian Wikipedians (at 15. February 2005. Goran
Obradovic and I had the first meeting). Yesterday we had 43rd meeting.
(http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%A3%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE)


from_name: Brock Batsell

body:
Mr. Thompson,

It appears that your internet connection uses proxies to communicate
with webservers on the Internet, such as those found on
wikipedia.org.  Because of these proxies, your external IP address
appears to change fairly quickly.  Another user from your ISP made
this edit to the Dick Cheney article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=Dick_Cheney&diff=next&oldid=35046943

I think you'll agree that this edit was vandalism.  However, since
your IP addresses change, the person the warning was addressed to did
not receive it, and you, assigned his old IP address, received this
warning instead.  We apologize for this inconvenience ? to avoid
these problems in the future, might I suggest you register for an
account?

Regards,
[[en:User:Bbatsell]]

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from_name: Sam Korn

subject: [WikiEN-l] AC elections

body:
On 1/16/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> (Take care what laws of the universe you notice, as the rule may
> notice you. "On Wikipedia, the reward for a job well done is another
> three jobs" - I got another two yesterday. James F. is currently
> running at thirty-six.)

May I suggest a special edition of BJAODN for the funniest votes?  I
have a couple to boast...

--
Sam


from_name: Jay Converse

body:
We need a bit more information before we can help you; for instance, on what
day, what edits, and what is your username/IP that you used?  We can't
really do or say anything here until we know what exactly you're being
accused of doing.

On 1/16/06, James Thompson <jamesthompsonii at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>   Dick Cheney's entry.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Photos ? Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
> Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
I'm not stupid, just selectively ignorant.


subject: [WikiEN-l] kelvSYC's take on userboxes

body:
On 1/16/06, John Lee <johnleemk at gawab.com> wrote:
> I think I made a few hundred edits without creating a userpage.

I made 42.

--
Sam


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Logo use

body:
On 1/16/06, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Correction please.
>
> I did not give any permission at all for use of that logo.

My mistake, and I most sincerely apologise.  The impression I got was
of you saying that there were no objections, which I enterpreted as
giving provisional permission.  Clearly that was not what you meant.

> The current guidelines are for the way the logo could appear, not for
> its internal uses. I think the change you are suggesting would fit in
> another definition of its use.

It seems to me that imposing the logo on some other image would be
contravening the "Placement" section [1] of the visual identity
guidelines, as it does not have the requisite white space etc.  Again,
forgive me if I have misenterpreted the guidelines.

Cheers

--
Sam


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Logo use


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> WP:MUSIC only got as far as it did by its supperorters saying "no no it
> isn't policy, it's only a guideline!" then turning around once it was
> entrenched and saying "actually it might as well be policy." It's grossly
> popcentric and US-centric for a start.

So reflective of WP as a whole, then!

--
Sam


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Webcomics for deletion is clearly two narrow a band for deletion. It
> would require NP patrolers to learn stupidly high numbers of AFD tags.
> subdivision into wider bands would probably be desirable if a way can
> be found to do it without requireing to great an expenditure of
> rescources.~~~~

Actually, my idea was that step 3 of the AFD nom process would be
changed, initially placing noms in a holding cell-type area.
Interested parties (possibly a dedicated deletion-sorting project)
would then move the noms to a project deletion page, or to the main
AFD page if no suitable project existed.

Kirill Lokshin


from_name: Alexander Bobrov

subject: [Wikitech-l] wiki buttons design

body:
>> >> And, the last variants:
>> >>   http://tactics.indians.ru/tmp/wiki/wiki6.shtml

>> AN> I think, it's not good idea to use English word "Link" on button.

>> Why? What do you suggest?

vAB> Something that conveys the idea without requiring you to know English,
vAB> like having an italic letter conveys the idea of italic text, bold
vAB> letter the idea of bold text etc

Well, people really don't need to understand the meaning of the word
"Link" because it is underlined and blue-colored, as a normal link
could. The formatting speaks for itself, as in "B" and "i".

So, one who against blue underlined "Link" must be against bold "B" and
italicized "i" because these letters are for the English words "bold"
and "italic".

Now let us compare "Link" vs "Ab". What means "Link" for Wikipedia users?
At first - who they are, and what language they understand? Let's
refer to articles amount:
   English        920 000
   Deutsch        341 000
   Francais       224 000
   Polski         176 000
   Nihongo        173 000
   Italiano       132 000
   Svenska        128 000
   Nederlands     122 000
   Portugues       95 000
   Espanol         86 000
   + 26 languages with 10 000 =
   + ~40 with 1000
English 920K vs non-English ~1800K

A double superiority [except for, e.g. I am Russian and it is me who
proposes English word ;) ]. We have one part of comprehensible "Links"
against two parts of obscure. 1 to 2, 33%. But with "Ab" we have 100%
of nonsense, for both English-speakers and everybody else. What is it:
an abbreviation for "abdominal"? =)

I have another idea though. The link we discuss is _the inner Wiki
link_ so why don't we use neutral (multilingual in our case) word
Wiki, which gives people another useful hint? =)

vAB> B.t.w. these are quite nice, could you release them under the GPL-2 or
vAB> later and provide the sourcefiles for them so they could potentially
vAB> be included in MW?

Of course, I will. I made these buttons specially for Wikipedia.
But to my shame I never used GPL before. How can I do it? Please be my
guide.

Alex Bobrov____________________________________________
Indian Summer Studio                 http://indians.ru/

......................................................................
Elephants are just like field mice, but with deeper voices.
......................................................................


from_name: Matt R

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
--- David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> Looks like the doll-collector's wiki is saying "bugger Wikipedia" and
> picking a CC license specifically to maintain incompatibility -
> they've been put off the idea of Wikipedia *that badly*.

I haven't really been following this, but are you sure they felt the need to
fork because of AfD? I ask, because there's a variety of reasons that people
feel the need to start their own specialist-subject wiki. Someone recently
started "CryptoDox" (http://www.cryptodox.com/), a encyclopedia of
cryptography, using MediaWiki, licensed under cc by-nc-sa. Exactly the same
goals, it seems, as the Wikipedia Cryptography Project.

I asked him why he didn't want to do it on Wikipedia. He replied, rather
cryptically (pun not intended):

"You are right in saying "Why not Wikipedia?". But this does not mean that
others are not free to try out endeavours of their own. Wikipedia is
undoubtedly an outstanding project which is growing at a tremendous pace and
will surely continue to do so."

"That is exactly how I would like to see CryptoDox become one day....but with
just one particular domain in mind....cryptography. Can't this be done in
Wikipedia? Yes! It can be done there. No doubts. But I want to see how a site
dedicated to a particular domain does over time."

A little perplexing, but he doesn't seem to be an embittered AfD veteran.

-- Matt

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto
Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: charles matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] AC elections

body:
"Sam Korn" wrote

>May I suggest a special edition of BJAODN for the funniest votes?  I
have a couple to boast...

As in 'Bad Judgement and Otherwise Disenfranchisable Namecalling'?

Charles


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/17/06, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 1/16/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Actually, my idea was that step 3 of the AFD nom process would be
> > changed, initially placing noms in a holding cell-type area.
> > Interested parties (possibly a dedicated deletion-sorting project)
> > would then move the noms to a project deletion page, or to the main
> > AFD page if no suitable project existed.
> >
> > Kirill Lokshin
>
> Uses up way too many rescoures and runs into the problem of POV
> projects (they have existed and will exist again). Follow the link for
> my aproach:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Geni/test
>
> Of course the catigories will need tuneing (at the moment they are
> just the ones from the main page).

Interesting.  I would increase the number of categories significantly;
simply splitting AFD into 8 chunks does little, in my view, to solve
its main structural problem: that a centralized listing makes pasting
"* NN, D. ~~~~" into every subpage entirely too easy.

Kirill Lokshin


subject: [WikiEN-l] AC elections

body:
On 1/16/06, charles matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> As in 'Bad Judgement and Otherwise Disenfranchisable Namecalling'?

Pre-bloody-cisely!

--
Sam


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Logo use

body:
Sam Korn wrote:
> On 1/16/06, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>The current guidelines are for the way the logo could appear, not for
>>its internal uses. I think the change you are suggesting would fit in
>>another definition of its use.
>
>
> It seems to me that imposing the logo on some other image would be
> contravening the "Placement" section [1] of the visual identity
> guidelines, as it does not have the requisite white space etc.  Again,
> forgive me if I have misenterpreted the guidelines.

You are actually correct Sam...

/me wonders if we could have a case here...

ant

> Cheers
>
> --
> Sam


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Logo use


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zazapedia

body:
Mahmuti Satari schreef:
> Hi,
>
> I want to lanch the Zazaki Language version of wikipedia.
>
> The name of the Language:
> Zazaki (Dimli / Kurmanjki)
>
> Language Code:
> Dimli diq  http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=diq
>
> Number of people who can speak the Language:
> 2 Million
>
> Additional Information:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaza_people
>
> Mehmet

See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_to_start_a_new_Wikipedia

You need support, other people who are willing to help with this new
wikipedia and some native speakers. And a lot of patience. This can
takes months. Good luck.

--
Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community


from_name: STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA

subject: [WikiEN-l] blocked for unexisting policy

body:
I have been blocked for displaying a photo on my
userpage. The photo in question was of another user
and was in "good standard". I was given an ultimatum
to remove the photo or be blocked.

I argued that I had the right to display the photo on
my userpage and that there was nothing in the policy
that disallowed me from doing so. I also argued that
the user in question agreed to release the photo under
GDU at the time when they uploaded the photo.

FeloniousMonk blocked me for 24-hours for harassment
and disruption. I don't see how I did any of that by
having the photo displayed on my userpage. Nowhere in
your policy does it say that we can disrupt by having
a photo in "good standing" displayed on our userpage.
I would like to know whether I am in the wrong, and if
so, why; and I would like to be unblocked. Thank you.

Anittas.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] I was blocked for an unexisting policy

body:
I have been blocked for displaying a photo on my
userpage. The photo in question was of another user
and was in "good standard". I was given an ultimatum
to remove the photo or be blocked.

I argued that I had the right to display the photo on
my userpage and that there was nothing in the policy
that disallowed me from doing so. I also argued that
the user in question agreed to release the photo under
GDU at the time when they uploaded the photo.

FeloniousMonk blocked me for 24-hours for harassment
and disruption. I don't see how I did any of that by
having the photo displayed on my userpage. Nowhere in
your policy does it say that we can disrupt by having
a photo in "good standing" displayed on our userpage.
I would like to know whether I am in the wrong, and if
so, why; and I would like to be unblocked. Thank you.

Anittas.

Related link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anittas#Warning

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: V. Ivanov

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia request: Novial language

body:
2006/1/13, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>:
> If it's widely spoken (on the order of, say, Interlingue-ex-Occidental
> or Volap?k), I suggest you start a Test-Wiki at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/test-wp/nov/

Oh, surely it's widely spoken, if you compare with Volap?k.

Sl.

--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like the doll-collector's wiki is saying "bugger Wikipedia" and
> picking a CC license specifically to maintain incompatibility -
> they've been put off the idea of Wikipedia *that badly*.
>
> So that's two forks now. Yay!
>

uh huh. Spam will hit them in about 3 weeks if my experence is
anything to go by.

> (And I understand a Wired News reporter is sniffing around the
> webcomics debacle. Fantastic. Perhaps if it becomes a *public*
> embarrassment something might actually get done about the AFD
> problem.)
>
>
> - d.

Probably. Something ill thought out that is likely to make the problem
worse next time but probably.
--
geni


from_name: candy

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mwdumper problems

body:
Jitse Niesen wrote:
> On 1/8/06, candy <ccanddyy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I tried to import the entire english wikipedia dump(some 15 gigs) in to
>>mediawiki1.4.
>>The entire process took 2 days and then, it seems nothing happened !
>>I got an error like the following in between somewhere.
>>
>>ERROR 1062 (23000) at line 28: Duplicate entry '1' for key 1
>>
>>But the import was not aborted. So I let it continue.
>
>
> I never tried importing the dump in MediaWiki 1.4, but I had the same
> problem in 1.5. The solution for me was to empty some tables first. In
> 1.5, the following does the trick: Run "mysql -u root -p wikidb" and
> give the commands "truncate page; truncate revision; truncate text;".
> My guess is that in 1.4 you need to do "truncate cur;".
>
> Jitse

I did as you instructed by emptying the cur, old ,and blobs tables. The
import went on for 3 days. The size of the database wikidb(in this case)
increased to 4.1 GB. only although the total dump is 15 gig big.
After the import was over, I started the http server, and if I try to
search some page say "FRance" in the search field, no results are
obtained showing the import was not successful. What do you think is the
problem.
Is there something more I should do?

Candy


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Snowspinner (Snowspinner at gmail.com) [060117 06:40]:
>
> > A) Most of the horrifying incivility in the webcomics debate actually
> > came in trying to write guidelines.
> > B) The MUSIC guidelines are deeply, deeply flawed.
>
>
> WP:MUSIC only got as far as it did by its supperorters saying "no no it
> isn't policy, it's only a guideline!" then turning around once it was
> entrenched and saying "actually it might as well be policy." It's grossly
> popcentric and US-centric for a start.
>
>
> - d.

That would be because most of the vantity band articles fit those
criteria. When we start getting large numbers of opera singers
creating vanity articles we will expand the criteria to cover them
too.

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary fork update

body:
On 1/16/06, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/16/06, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> >
> > I should add: it's distinctly odd and disquieting to see so many people
> > reacting to this with apparent denial - claiming it couldn't really be
> > because Wikipedia has places that threat people badly enough that outsiders
> > don't want to risk it any more, it must be some other barely-plausible
> > reason. (I remember geni trying to make this out to be the case with the
> > Comixpedia fork even when it was explicitly because AFD were being complete
> > arses.) This is actually a problem and I submit that it's a serious one.
> > Is two enough? Will it be a problem with three or four? It's not the fact
> > of the forks, it's the reason for them.
>
> I'll point out that there are certain portions of the Wikipedia
> population which LIKE the culture of AFD.  These portions are quite
> vehemently against any major reform; and so long as AFD continues to
> operate (and it will, barring another Uncle Ed incident) they have no
> incentive to negotiate over the issue.
>
> Kirill Lokshin

It's not an issue of likeing it. It's more an issue of all the
alturnatives being worse. With the exception of PWD they all move
power away from the community.

People complain there isn't enough disscussion on AFD. They could go
on there and discuss things. Stop voteing and start commenting. I did.
People do respond. Just think if you had as few as half a dozen people
who never voted but commented on a regular basis you could change the
whole place.

People complain the attitude is bad. Well get a group together and
start spreading good atitude.

--
geni