from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright situation

body:
On 8/7/05, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:

> Then we will also at least have them all marked easily *should* we
> want to mass delete them all. (I find it also very unlikely that the
> government of Iran would ever sue Wikipedia for use of its images, so
> I think this should fall under "low-threat fair use" in our thinking
> about it, rather than worrying about WIPO membership)

I don't think it's just the government of Iran, but all Iranians, just
as US copyright law protects more than just US government material.

--
Peter in Canberra


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] mail outage

body:
Kate (keturner at livejournal.com) [050808 08:32]:

> all mail services (lists, wiki mail, OTRS) will be offline for several hours
> during Monday morning UTC while mail services are moved to another machine.

What was the apparent outage from about Saturday 15:00 UTC to just a short
while ago?

- d.


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: What's wrong with the world?

body:
Anthony DiPierro (anthonydipierro at hotmail.com) [050808 10:07]:

Most of this is already answered on the Meta pages:

[[m:Article validation feature]]
[[m:Article validation possible problems]]

I won't cut'n'paste from there, but refer you there.

In the first instance: we will just be gathering data. An essential point
is that we won't even attempt to do anything with the data until we have
some idea what shape it is. (This keeps separate the applications and the
data itself.)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 25, Issue 23

body:
On 8/8/05, Arkady Rose <arkady at arkady.org.uk> wrote:
> info at antandsons.com wrote:
>
> >Who can I contact to see if I can add links/content to Wikipedia?
>
> You don't. See that little "edit this page" link? You just dive right on in.

I can't get it to work! I think there's something wrong with the site!

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject: [WikiEN-l] What's wrong with the world?

body:
On 8/7/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> steve v (vertigosteve at yahoo.com) [050806 05:49]:
>
> > From [[ minority ]]:
> > ''This article is about the concept of a minority. For
> > an entry on the [[Green Day]] single, see [[Minority
> > (song)|Minority]].''
> > !
>
> Heh. In cases like that, {{otheruses}} on the main article and a disambig
> with two entries seems entirely sensible to me ;-)
>

Done and done.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unauthorized deletion of images

body:
On 8/8/05, Leif Knutsen <vyerllc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> These were uploaded prior to Jimbo's email on the issue.
>
> Still, they were put forward for deletion because those who wanted it
> deleted complained that permission hadn't been obtained. If there was
> another reason for it, that should have been raised as the reason. I can't
> even find the archives of the discussion.
>
> Can someone please find out who deleted them? I would like to file for the
> appropriate sanctions against the individuals. If I simply upload them
> again, they are sure to be deleted as a result of Jimbo's policy.

If they were not properly licensed, then they would have been deleted
eventually. Now is as good a time as any other. If you can obtain
permission from the copyright holder to distribute them under the
GFDL, or another compatible license, then you can upload them again.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: steve v

subject: [WikiEN-l] Anti-bias (was D.V.)

body:
Slimvirgin wrote:
> with you is to write in a dry, disinterested,
> encyclopedic style, and to cite excellent sources.

"Dry and disinterested" is not necessarily good
writing (hence readable writing), nor should the
notion be synonymous with encyclopedic writing, or our
general interpretation of it. Good writing is both
balanced and interesting.  And "cite excellent
sources" is always controversial, as my sources tend
to be more excellent than others, and thus tend to
represent different views and hence are rejected.

Further, there are issues which contradict common
dogma or history, yet are extremely obvious to any
neutral observation. For example to state 'the Vietnam
War was as much (if not more) anti-democratic as it
was "anti-communist"' is simply the purist truism of
that history --it shouldnt be considered either POV or
controversial.  It is however rejected by those who
favor more detached, clinical language, which puts
emphasis on the abstract, elite-view politiculars than
on the human issues, the moral issues, or even the
basic facts of what actually happened.

The problem with being detached was once an issue with
the Irish Potato Famine article, which was written
with a focus on the particulars of a fungus and
Catholic overpopulation rather than the socio-economic
background or the human impact. Some still assert
there was deliberate intent to cause human death, and
though that assertion is considered by "detached"
academics to be largely out of bounds, it's
nevertheless an issue which required some treatment,
if only to clarify it and the terms used. In that
case, more "encyclopedic" emphasis meant objecting to
treating the issue at all. Again, using detached
language often only serves the detached POV. We're
neither an encyclopedia for infants requiring strained
meals, nor one for experts with all the excellent
prerequisites.

SV

--- slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:

> > --- David Vizcarra <david.vizcarra at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > Like you have pointed out, non-NPOV views are
> being
> > > pushed by groups
> > > arguing with individuals.
>
> Steve and David, the way to deal with a group of
> editors who disagree
> with you is to write in a dry, disinterested,
> encyclopedic style, and
> to cite excellent sources. I've encountered very few
> editors who will
> revert material like that, no matter how much they
> disagree with it.
> The stronger the opposition, the more persuasive
> your writing,
> sources, and arguments have to be. This usually
> leads to better
> articles, as frustrating as the experience might be.
>
> Sarah
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Another response,
	this time about the SimVirgin/Jayg/Jpgordon team

body:
--- David Vizcarra <david.vizcarra at gmail.com> wrote:
> However, his concept of "outside opinions" was those
> who he usually sides with and he knows agree with
him.

This may be true. But it sounds like an opinion about
a user. What does this have to do with anything?

> the[[User:SlimVirginjayjgJpgordon]] would never have
> existed.

Some vandal making a page is supposed to prove
something? You've lost any foundation in reason here.

> That is perhaps the reason for so much vandalism on
> his user page and
> talk page. Many people have been angered by allgeged
> pro-Jewish bias.

Back to the bottom rung, David.  This train of thought
is one that even very reasonable people can rightly
call "over the top," and perhaps even "bigoted." Youre
asserting that because a user has been the target of
allegations that such allegations are true and
justified, and that therefore they are tied to your
claim of their ethnic or religious bias.  ATM his bias
appears far less in need of correcting than is your
apparent excessive theorizing on the nature of his
ethno-religious particulars, and your accusation of
such bias. Do you see the difference?

While I sympathise with you feeling that youve been
ganged up on in an article dispute, at a certain point
you appear to stop being rational, and your choice of
attacking a person for his group status has little
distinction from attacking a group itself. Your
approach has literally no hope of success or drawing
support for your views, and reasonable people may
consider it inexcusable behaviour, until you see to
correct it.

SV

__________________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] The World Turned Upside Down

body:
Doesnt seem so sticky. I rewrote the sentence.
Apparently Mark was sticky on using the term
"pseudoscience" - practically a pejorative, or at
least a colored characterization.

Granted, no real scientist considers creation science
to be science or any part of it. But any NPOV use of
the term pseudoscience requires an explanation which
may not be warranted in a one-sentence overview.

SV

--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- Mark Pellegrini <mapellegrini at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > As you can imagine, it's very much a
> back-and-forth thing. Look at the
> > versions from earlier in the week following edits
> by pro-creationist
> > users FuelWagon, Rossnixon and especially PWhittle
> (as well as the IP
> > address 138.130.203.177
>
> Sounds like another sticky issue like the climate
> change problem. Good thing
> the ArbCom has already seen this type of case
> before.
>
> -- mav
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the
> tour:
> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


list: foundation-l

from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:
> Jimbo, let me remind you how wikis work: you see something that needs
> doing, and you do it. The details gets sorted out later. (I never
> thought I would have to say that to you.)

Yes, of course, but that is not the issue here as I see it.

The Wiki way is that you trust people, you listen to people, and you
don't engage in power plays when you're criticized.

> If Erik is going to be micromanaged in his daily goings and comings
> about this, that, or the other, then, he's not an Officer of the
> Foundation.

I think this is not really where the problem lies.  This isn't about
Erik being micromanaged, it is about him responding to questions and
very mild criticism by accusing people of micromanaging and suggesting
Anthere resign from the board.

That is not the wiki way of trust and co-operation.

I agree completely that we should reward people for boldness, and that
we can not and should not micromanage.  I think having a discussion
about the exact parameters of that can be worthwhile, but I also do not
think it is particularly relevant to this particular case.  The problem
as I see it is unprofessionalism in terms of cutting off such a
discussion by turning it instantly to questions of who should resign.

--Jimbo


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk


from_name: a9502784 at unet.univie.ac.at

subject: [Wikitech-l] Turn off automatic capitalisation @ is.wiktionary

body:
?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason a ?crit :

>I'd like to support this request for what it's wort, although I'm not
>an active user on the Icelandic Wiktionary.
>
Thanks a lot!
Greetings, birdy  (http://is.wiktionary.org/wiki/Notandaspjall:Spacebirdy)


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk

body:
Nicolas Weeger wrote:

>>I would like to state one more point, finally. Just like all of you, I
>>have never received a single Euro for anything I have done for Wikimedia
>>or its projects. I am doing all this in my spare time, with often very
>>little public appreciation, and the primary goal to help the projects
>>along. I believe that it is of paramount importance that in a volunteer
>>organization, rather than following a strict chain of command, we need
>>to work in a fashion where volunteers feel empowered to make a positive
>>difference.
>>
>>
>
>Aren't you being paid by a partner to work on Wikidata?
>
>
>
>>Erik
>>
>>
>
>Regards
>Nicolas Weeger
>
Hoi,
The fact is that Erik will be paid when he delivers the software. This
contract is explicitly outside of the Wikimedia Foundation and it has
been from the start. It has been outside of WMF with the prior knowledge
of Jimbo. This is just to make clear that the fact that Erik was willing
to write the Wikidata and Ultimate Wiktionary has nothing to do with the
WMF. The fact that he was willing to do this for so little money would
be the one thing that associates it with the charitable goals of the
Foundation.

I know it is wrong to suggest that Erik gives precendence to the
developement of Wikidata and Ultimate Wiktionary. He has indicated to me
that his position as an officer of the WMF may interfere with his role
as the developer for Wikidata and Ultimate Wiktionary. So to make clear
where his priorities are, he indicated that it would be important for me
to find people who want to take up the work that needs to be done after
the initial work on UW.

I am horrified with the recent events; the two people that have inspired
me most are having a damaging public fight. I love Anthere for the
inspiring talk she gave in Rotterdam, to me it was the single most
inspiring event for me. She spoke about the need for having information
and infrastructure for countries in Afrika and Asia. And UW will help. I
love Erik for the inspiration that he gave me, his ideas on Wikidata
were basic and enabled the idea of Ultimate Wiktionary. The
collaboration with Erik is going well; you may appreciate that for me
the moment for UW to be available to the public cannot come soon enough :)

There are some fundamental differences in the opinions on how to
proceed. My problem is that in essence we all want the same result and
we lose sight of what we aim for. Our aim is that we make good
information free for all. Individuals and companies, volunteers and
professionals can all play a part in that. Essential is that we
cooperate and use algorithms that work for such a diversified group of
people.

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: James R. Johnson

body:
Can you give some examples of Penn Dutch, and how it's unique/different from
Hochdeutsch?

Thanks,

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jtkiefer
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:40 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Pennsylvania German Wikipedia?

Josh Campfield wrote:

>I wrote last year sometime about the possibility of adding a wikipedia
>in Pennsylvania German/Pennsylvania Dutch. You said discuss it on the
>Village Pump. I just put a message out on there asking what do other
>people think. Pending what they say, what do you think about doing
>this? It's a rapidly dying language, and besides perhaps helping to
>revive it, the Wikipedia would have the distinction of being the first
>encyclopedia ever published in Pennsylvania German. The ISO 3-letter
>code is pdc.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Josh Campfield
>joshcampfield at gmail.com
>
>

It's an interesting idea but I don't think you'd be able to find enough
people willing to add to it, edit it, and maintain it.

-Jtkiefer

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] A response to JAY JG

body:
>From: David Vizcarra <david.vizcarra at gmail.com>
>
>Of course there weren't 3 edits from your part, because you and the
>other members of your little mafia group divided the reverts amongst
>yourselves.

This is the kind of statement that is more likely to provoke opposition than
co-operation.

>How do you know about the warning if you only gave me one? I wonder.

Your talk: page is open for everyone to view; there were at least two
warnings on that page.  Wonder no more.

>During the warnings I was given i was in constant communication with
>the admin who blocked me. You suggested me to revert my revert, he
>asked me to revert my reverts. So I did,

Reverting your reverts means actually reverting them.

>and rephrased the paragraph
>in a different way. Is one not able to edit at all after 3 reverts?
>that wasn't clear to me.

As has been explained, "rephrasing the paragraph" again and again to remove
the stuff you don't like is reverting.

>You and your people kept making changes to the article without prior
>concensus. Were disrespectful as well.

Considering that that section of the article has been stable for months
before you started messing with it, against considerable opposition, I'm
rather bemused that you would now complain that others were "making changes
to the article without prior concensus".  However, it is a moot point; the
fact that you used the phrases "your little mafia group " and "you and your
gang" indicates to me that further discussion is pointless.

Jay.


body:
>From: David Vizcarra <david.vizcarra at gmail.com>
>
>Jayg points out that the solution is trying to get outside opinions.
>However, his concept of "outside opinions" was those who he usually
>sides with and he knows agree with him. Otherwise
>the[[User:SlimVirginjayjgJpgordon]] would never have existed.

I didn't get any outside opinions at all, and your main opposition was
User:Goodoldpolonius2.  And now, I'll do my utmost to control my natural
tendency to feed...  If you have issues take them to the talk: page, and off
this list.

Jay.


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mail->news gateway

references:
<mailman.15.1123660214.3350.wikitech-l@wikimedia.org>	<42FA8277.2FC5BF3@livejournal.com>
	<ddkvjq$c8k$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:
>
> When you use gmane.org the emailadresses are encypted like
> walter at wikipedia.be   (and it works, you need to to confirm that you
> are real)

Apparently Gmane enables this for some newsgroups but not for others.
For wikitech-l, it is disabled. Both the e-mail address I quoted above
and the "From" address in all the postings here are unencrypted.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Turn off automatic capitalisation @ is.wiktionary

body:
a9502784 at unet.univie.ac.at wrote:
>
>> Why don't you just turn off the capitalisation in all Wiktionaries?
>
> Yes maybe this would be useful, but also a lot of work for existing
> entries. [...] But I think you have to ask the local communities if
> they do agree.

I don't really think there is any doubt that all Wiktionaries should be
case-sensitive. The only reason people are reluctant to just imposing
that change is because a few people on the English Wiktionary who didn't
really understand what this means voiced some bogus but very vocal
opposition.

I think it is important to make this change as soon as possible so that
it is less work for the relevant Wiktionary community. If it is delayed,
and the Wiktionary grows in the meantime, there is much more stuff to be
fixed later.

Notice that I am not even a particularly regular contributor to
Wiktionary. I'm not saying this because I think it makes my life easier
or anything, but because I think that it is the right thing to do for
Wiktionary. There is no real relevance in what language the Wiktionary
is in.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Combining Categories

body:
topi wrote:
> I would like to combine Categories.
> Does there allready a solution exist?

Yes, I've seen this on Wikinews:

<DynamicPageList>
category=August 14, 2005
category=Published
notcategory=Disputed
suppresserrors=true
</DynamicPageList>

This produces a list of all articles that are in [[Category:August 14,
2005]] and [[Category:Published]] but not in [[Category:Disputed]].

See also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/DynamicPageList

Timwi


from_name: NSK

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sphaera Mundi

body:
On 1 August 2005 I decided to contribute an article from my wiki
http://www.jnanabase.org in Wikipedia. My wiki is GFDL, just like Wikipedia.

I proceeded and copied the text from my wiki's article and I pasted it to a
new Wikipedia article [[Sphaera Mundi]]:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphaera_Mundi

Because the article was written in my wiki (which has 1834 pages), I added a
standard attribution notice to cite the source, with a link back to my wiki's
original article, as per required by GFDL and Wikipedia's policy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

On 3 August 2005 another Wikipedia user edited the article and added
categories. On 9 August 2005 a different user cleaned it up and disambiguated
some links.

On 12 August 2005, [[User:UninvitedCompany]], who is a sysop, removed the
attribution notice.

On 14 August 2005, [[User:Joe Kress]] (I don't know that user) re-added the
attribution notice, as Wikipedia's policy requires:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

2 hours later UninvitedCompany removed the notice again. 3 hours later I added
again the notice.

We had some discussion with UninvitedCompany and he says the source of
[[Sphaera Mundi]]'s shouldn't be included in the article because it's an
"unreliable source" and because it's "spam", although my wiki appears in the
3rd position in a Google search for "sphaera mundi" and most other pages of
my website have a PageRank of 6, while the site has been slashdotted 4 times:
http://portal.wikinerds.org/taxonomy/term/49

According to the GFDL licence and copyright laws, proper attribution must be
provided. Citing where an article was copied from is not spam.

In a similar incident, I also copied an article from my wiki to a new
Wikipedia article with title [[Erhard Ratdolt]], with an attribution notice.
When UninvitedCompany removed the attribution notice, another sysop deleted
the article saying "copyvio of Wikinerds. Deleting." - and this shows that an
article copied from an external GFDL source into Wikipedia without proper
attribution is copyright violation and a violation of the GFDL licence.

If the notice is deleted again from [[Sphaera Mundi]] (or any other article
from my wiki without proper attribution), I will request its deletion.

This sysop also removed other attribution notices and various other edits I
have made, so I believe he is bullying me. I have requested mediation and I
have collected all evidence at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Www.wikinerds.org/Bullying

Please someone explain to this sysop that articles copied from external GFDL
wikis must contain proper attribution. We don't want our articles to appear
in Wikipedia without attribution of the source. If you don't want to include
the attribution link, please delete articles copied from Wikinerds.

--
Owner of http://www.wikinerds.org/
Owner of http://www.jnanabase.org/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Sphaera Mundi


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [Foundation-l] on group dynamics

body:
Good article on group dynamics:

http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_Shirky

Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] on group dynamics


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk

body:
>  left the project if they had been treated the same way. My side of
> the equation is that this needs to stop for any future cooperation to
> be viable. Conflicts should be resolved in private first before they
> are carried out on a public mailing list.
>
Usually conflicts become public because one of the sides feels he
doesn't have to respond privately. Same like the conflict between me and
GerardM which raged on privately, it didn't get solved. I took it public
and unfortunately it still isn't solved.

Waerth/Walter


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk


subject: [Wikipedia-l] correction of errors in articles

body:
>Maybe in theory the wiki way is to just let anyone edit things to
>their preference, but that's also the way to get hopelessly entangled
>in edit wars about nothing in particular. The Wikipedia way is to talk
>about it and reach an agreement. At least that's what I hope it is.
>
>
>
It is Andre :)

Waerth/Walter


body:
Sabine Cretella wrote:

> This is a general question - did I mention your name?
>
> And as I said before: I am not going to discuss things again - I am
> already in contact with some Palttd??tsch authors that publish
> liteature and articles in low saxon. There are more than just some
> writings.

You are going the Node way now? Everytime someone discusses something
with him he comes up with these mysterious off-wiki "experts" who he
quotes. I really would like it if you could solve it with the people who
are on-wiki if there is a problem. They are the people you work together
with. They ARE the community within wikimedia. Not some outsiders who
feel having to comment but not work together is a great thing to do.

And yes you DO need to discuss things things with fellow wikimedians.
They are the ones you work with, not some John Doe's

> Who is taking things from private to public is not me. On nds you can
> do whatever you want as long as the community supports you. You can
> use Werner's list as long as it is according to GFDL and he is
> mentioned as the author. I am going down to the basis as I don't like
> to go ahead by "xyz told me".

You are telling him that also. XYZ told me .....

>
>
> I am going ahead with universities, writers and the institute for
> lower saxon language I suppose this should be fine when it comes to
> credibility - and this is what you are trying to destroy - and I
> really don't like that.

He is not destroying anything. These outsiders are welcome to discuss
this themselves. I always hate discussion by proxy. and when people come
up with all kinds of mysterious friends to which others have to bow
because of their "alleged" expertise.

> On the one word you told me by e-mail that was a hundred percent error
> turned out to be used 186 times on the internet (I have a screenshot
> of google if you don't believe it) and I found the writer who used it
> in her texts - she's a reporter for a newspaper in North Germany and
> has been writing articles in Pattd??tsch vor over 13 years for them
> now. I also contacted her to ask her how to categorise her writings.

Another mysterious supporting source.

> So: anything is out of discussion here. I am not going let me impose
> things by anyone, I prefer research and adapt the contents we have to
> that..

And Heiko is not going to let you impose things upon him. Editwar anyone?

> Remeber: it is not a nice thing to take things to public only since
> you presume I was talking about you -

It is not a nice thing to ask community help and only paint half of the
picture, if you take things public name him/her so they got a chance to
present their side of the argument. It has been done to me a couple of
times by another wiktionarian and close friend of yours.

> I did not once mention your name and what I had/still have is a
> general question - it does not happen the first time that people know
> how to improve things, but just complain about others not doing as the
> writer supposes - and talking about wikis: this is not the way to go
> and that's it. It is a very general question. If you need proofs for
> that: they are there in the histories.

If someone contents something you should listen to them and go in a
discussion. Not just boldly go on and add the stuff elsewhere!

Ciao,
Waerth/Walter


from_name: aerik at thesylvans.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Combining Categories

body:
Heinz wrote:
> I would like to combine Categories.
>
> There are two articles Categorie:One and Categorie:Two
> Whithin another article i would like to get all articles listed, who belong
> to Categorie:One AND Categorie:Two
>
> Does there allready a solution exist?

I think you're describing the same thing as "Category Math" (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category_math) and "Category Intersections". There is an extension (still in development I think, but I'm not sure - I believe it's in use on wikinews) called "Dynamic Page Lists" and I have a rough draft of a special page that includes a UI for browsing through categories (find pages belonging to two or more categories, also see what other categories intersect in those pages - I haven't worked on it for awhile, sorry to say, but it works).

Best Regards,
Aerik


from_name: Heinz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Including othter articles by name -> titles

body:
Thanks Angela, that was a very good hint.
But when including a page that way, the page title does not get included.
I have either to include the =title= whithin the inluded page again, which
does'nt look nice there or to set the title manually on the page which
include subpages.
Are there allready some working things to get a page included and the page
title displayed too?
Heinz

"Angela" <beesley at gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:<8b722b80050811025860676dde at mail.gmail.com>...
On 8/11/05, Thomas Koll <tomk32 at gmx.de> wrote:

> How about extending the template/vorlagen code to allow something like
> {{0:Artikel im normalen Namespace}} or {{Wikipedia:some article in
> wikipedia ns}} ?
This already works. You can include pages from the main namespace by
starting with a colon.
{{:Main Page}} will include the main page.
Angela.
----------


from_name: SJ

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Pennsylvania German Wikipedia?

body:
A good rule of thumb for 'enough people' is five people interested in
maintaining it, each of whom is somewhat familiar with the language,
and at least one of whom is well versed in it.

I assume you know some Pennsylvania Dutch yourself?

--SJ, reminded of an HL Mencken book from the early 20th century that
went over the major dialects in the US and their vocabulary quirks in
surprising detail.  (If you know the one I'm talking about, please
remind me of its title)

On 8/14/05, Jtkiefer <jtkiefer at wordzen.net> wrote:
> Josh Campfield wrote:
>
> >I wrote last year sometime about the possibility of adding a wikipedia
> >in Pennsylvania German/Pennsylvania Dutch. You said discuss it on the
> >Village Pump. I just put a message out on there asking what do other
> >people think. Pending what they say, what do you think about doing
> >this? It's a rapidly dying language, and besides perhaps helping to
> >revive it, the Wikipedia would have the distinction of being the first
> >encyclopedia ever published in Pennsylvania German. The ISO 3-letter
> >code is pdc.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Josh Campfield
> >joshcampfield at gmail.com
> >
> >
>
> It's an interesting idea but I don't think you'd be able to find enough
> people willing to add to it, edit it, and maintain it.
>
>
> -Jtkiefer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
++SJ


list: textbook-l

subject: [Textbook-l] wikibook wikimania05

body:
Jakob Voss and Andrew Lih are currently coordinating the proceedings.
I am trying to help as I can, particularly with translations, but will
be hard to reach until the middle of next week.

Rigally,
   SJ

On 8/11/05, Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> Hi, just a question - who is the person coordinating the book? Is it SJ?
> or someone else?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Ciao, Sabine
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
> http://mail.yahoo.it
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
>

--
++SJ


subject: [Wikipedia-l] 3 minutes on Public Domain

body:
A loud hurrah! for that.  Everyone should play through this short
piece, if only for the chance to see and hear a dozen Wikimedians.  If
you can manage to broadcast it on a huge projection screen in the
middle of an auditorium, those of us in Frankfurt at the end of the
conference can live vicariously through you...

SJ

On 8/11/05, Jean-Baptiste Soufron <jbsoufron at gmail.com> wrote:
> I uploaded the small movie on Public Domain that we shooted with yannf
> and dannyisme during Wikimania:
>
> It's here in ogm:
>
> http://soufron.free.fr/soufron-spip/article.php3?id_article=99
>
> I will probably add other formats soon and I am ready to do some
> modifications if needed :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
++SJ


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
This might be of interest to some:
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/13/bbc_punks_wikipedia_.html -
Wikipedia articles (now VfDed) about a fictional popstar being added
as part of a viral marketing campaign. It raises the not unreasonable
question - how many of these are out there already?

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] How to work better with brittle users?

body:
This is a question that has occurred to me in the context of arbitration,
and how to avoid it.

There's a common personality type for trouble on Wikipedia: brittle in
interactions with others, can't tolerate ambiguity, so gets into
rules-lawyering. Sees "common sense" and "judgement" mostly as excuses to
exercise bias, not as recognition that all rules are fluid in the pursuit
of our goal.

I am not thinking of any individual, but of a general type I've noticed. I
think something about Wikipedia will tend to attract them. I would *guess*
it's something that attracts people from further up the autistic spectrum
than the general populace, but that's just speculation.

The point is that they're good and hard-working contributors, but can get
difficult to work with. And putting them on a processing line that leads to
arbitration strikes me as not being a good thing. Is there a better way?
I welcome your thoughts and speculation.

- d.


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Q3 fund drive planning help needed

body:
The next fundraising drive is scheduled to start on Friday 19 August and last
until Friday 9 September. Much work needs to be done to make this a successful
event.

See the coordination page here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q3_planning

Translation work is especially needed, but first we need to figure out what
needs to be translated. I'll send an update on this point tomorrow.

Any help will be greatly appreciated given the amount we are shooting for:
$200,000. By far the largest increase in expenses is the amount we need to
spend on new servers.

Daniel Mayer,
Wikimedia CFO

PS - A budget of $198,000.00 for this quarter was approved of during the Sunday
board meeting. It will be posted to the foundation wiki sometime during the
next day or so.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Fastfission

body:
Ditto here. Just get the data. Even better, you cite it and include it
on the discussion page for the image so that other people can verify
that you're not pulling fast one. Think of this as an opportunity for
improvement.

FF

On 8/8/05, Tyler Riddle <triddle at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Which website you go the photos from and what type of permission did the
> > website give you?
> >
>
> Isn't the easiest way to fix this problem just to recreate the graphs
> from the data? If someone can point me towards it I'll even do it
> myself in Excel or GNUPlot or something.
>
> Tyler
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Including othter articles by name

body:
On 13/08/05, Heinz-Josef L?cking <h-j.luecking at t-online.de> wrote:
> But when including a page that way, the page title does not get included.
> I have either to include the =title= whithin the inluded page again, which
> does'nt look nice there or to set the title manually on the page which
> include subpages.
>
> Are there allready some working things to get a page included and the page
> title displayed too?

How about creating a template which adds a header with the title of
the page, followed by its contents, e.g. if [[Template:include with
title]] contains the following:

={{{1}}}=
{{:{{{1}}}}}

Then typing "{{include with title|Page name}}" will create a top-level
header labelled "Page name" followed by the contents of [[Page name]].
And obviously, it's entirely up to you how the title is formatted -
just edit your template appropriately.

See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Template for more...

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Interwiki-Links

references:
<ddcv1j$qvs$1@sea.gmane.org> <ddjcbn$fib$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<51dd1af805081302243a0c0ae7@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 13/08/05, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason <avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> > (Personally, I dislike that behaviour. I think it should stay as
> > [[:de:WIKI|]] in the source code, so people can learn this trick by
> > seeing it in use.)
>
> I don't know why it doesn't work like that, it would just be a matter
> of moving some of the save-time transformations to render-time
> transformations.

It's a trade-off - the current way makes the markup to parse on a
normal page simpler, allows users to correct the piping if it's not
quite right, and allows the exact algorithm for chopping bits off to
be varied without risk of breaking existing content. OTOH, it makes
learning that the trick exists 10 times harder, and is somewhat of a
special case code-wise (although, everything in Parser.php is kind of
a special case, in a way...)

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Afar vandalism

body:
Hi all. Someone just posted this to the Help Desk on en.wiki:

> The main page of Wikipedia in Afar Wikipedia in Afar has
> been vandalized, and whenever I try to find a non-vandalized
> version in the history, I am unable to do so. How would I go
> about solving this problem? Thank you.

http://aa.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

I've had a look, and it's a mess... some weird page moves, a load of
deletions a while back... in fact, I can't find real content anywhere
on there. Anyone know what should be done?

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
http://amisch.de/penn/index.php?title=Haaptblatt

>From their page on Pennsilfaanisch:

"Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch, ass aa Pennsylvania German, Pennsylvania
Dutch odder Pennsilfaanisch genennt watt, iss en Schprooch, wu
g'schwetzt watt bei verleicht 300,000 Leit in meh wie 20 Schteets in
die USA un in Ontario (Kanadaa). Die meenschte Schwetzer sinn heit
Amische un Fuhremennischte, wu deitsch aa heit noch schwetze zu ihre
Kinner, awwer's gebt aa en latt Luthrische un Reformierte, wu die
Mudderschprooch noch g'schwetzt henn, wie sie en Kind waare."

Mark

On 14/08/05, James R. Johnson <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Can you give some examples of Penn Dutch, and how it's unique/different from
> Hochdeutsch?
>
> Thanks,
>
> James
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jtkiefer
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:40 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Pennsylvania German Wikipedia?
>
> Josh Campfield wrote:
>
> >I wrote last year sometime about the possibility of adding a wikipedia
> >in Pennsylvania German/Pennsylvania Dutch. You said discuss it on the
> >Village Pump. I just put a message out on there asking what do other
> >people think. Pending what they say, what do you think about doing
> >this? It's a rapidly dying language, and besides perhaps helping to
> >revive it, the Wikipedia would have the distinction of being the first
> >encyclopedia ever published in Pennsylvania German. The ISO 3-letter
> >code is pdc.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Josh Campfield
> >joshcampfield at gmail.com
> >
> >
>
> It's an interesting idea but I don't think you'd be able to find enough
> people willing to add to it, edit it, and maintain it.
>
>
> -Jtkiefer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sphaera Mundi

body:
NSK,

It is not true that you did this because it was REQUIRED. You did it to
direct traffic to your web site. You even created a sock puppet account
with your web site address as its username.

You have 2 choices at this point:

1. Donate the words you wrote DIRECTLY to Wikipedia (agreeing with the
disclaimer you surely saw, next to the 'save' button, which licenses
Wikipedia to use that text in accordance with the GNU Free Documentation
Licenses); or,

2. We will rewrite the article completely - making a fresh start of it.
This will remove the issue of an attribution notice.

If you don't make a choice promptly (and politely!) I will make the
choice for you, and it will be #2. I remind you of [[Wikipedia:Gaming
the system]]; have you read it yet?

Also, it seems likely that you do not understand GFDL. Once you license
some text under the GFDL, it is no longer "yours". A republisher need
only comply with the minimum requirements, which is to credit you as the
author.

There is no obligation to link to a website you are trying to advertise.

Ed Poor

> -----Original Message-----
> From: NSK [mailto:nsk2 at wikinerds.org]
> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:57 AM
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Sphaera Mundi
>
>
> On 1 August 2005 I decided to contribute an article from my wiki
> http://www.jnanabase.org in Wikipedia. My wiki is GFDL, just
> like Wikipedia.
>
> I proceeded and copied the text from my wiki's article and I
> pasted it to a
> new Wikipedia article [[Sphaera Mundi]]:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphaera_Mundi
>
> Because the article was written in my wiki (which has 1834
> pages), I added a
> standard attribution notice to cite the source, with a link
> back to my wiki's
> original article, as per required by GFDL and Wikipedia's policy:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources
>
> On 3 August 2005 another Wikipedia user edited the article and added
> categories. On 9 August 2005 a different user cleaned it up
> and disambiguated
> some links.
>
> On 12 August 2005, [[User:UninvitedCompany]], who is a sysop,
> removed the
> attribution notice.
>
> On 14 August 2005, [[User:Joe Kress]] (I don't know that
> user) re-added the
> attribution notice, as Wikipedia's policy requires:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources
>
> 2 hours later UninvitedCompany removed the notice again. 3
> hours later I added
> again the notice.
>
> We had some discussion with UninvitedCompany and he says the
> source of
> [[Sphaera Mundi]]'s shouldn't be included in the article
> because it's an
> "unreliable source" and because it's "spam", although my wiki
> appears in the
> 3rd position in a Google search for "sphaera mundi" and most
> other pages of
> my website have a PageRank of 6, while the site has been
> slashdotted 4 times:
> http://portal.wikinerds.org/taxonomy/term/49
>
> According to the GFDL licence and copyright laws, proper
> attribution must be
> provided. Citing where an article was copied from is not spam.
>
> In a similar incident, I also copied an article from my wiki to a new
> Wikipedia article with title [[Erhard Ratdolt]], with an
> attribution notice.
> When UninvitedCompany removed the attribution notice, another
> sysop deleted
> the article saying "copyvio of Wikinerds. Deleting." - and
> this shows that an
> article copied from an external GFDL source into Wikipedia
> without proper
> attribution is copyright violation and a violation of the
> GFDL licence.
>
> If the notice is deleted again from [[Sphaera Mundi]] (or any
> other article
> from my wiki without proper attribution), I will request its deletion.
>
> This sysop also removed other attribution notices and various
> other edits I
> have made, so I believe he is bullying me. I have requested
> mediation and I
> have collected all evidence at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Www.wikinerds.org/Bullying
>
> Please someone explain to this sysop that articles copied
> from external GFDL
> wikis must contain proper attribution. We don't want our
> articles to appear
> in Wikipedia without attribution of the source. If you don't
> want to include
> the attribution link, please delete articles copied from Wikinerds.
>
> --
> Owner of http://www.wikinerds.org/
> Owner of http://www.jnanabase.org/
>
>


body:
--- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:

>
> This is a question that has occurred to me in the context of
> arbitration,
> and how to avoid it.
>
> There's a common personality type for trouble on Wikipedia: brittle
> in
> interactions with others, can't tolerate ambiguity, so gets into
> rules-lawyering. Sees "common sense" and "judgement" mostly as
> excuses to
> exercise bias, not as recognition that all rules are fluid in the
> pursuit
> of our goal.
>
> I am not thinking of any individual, but of a general type I've
> noticed. I
> think something about Wikipedia will tend to attract them. I would
> *guess*
> it's something that attracts people from further up the autistic
> spectrum
> than the general populace, but that's just speculation.
>
> The point is that they're good and hard-working contributors, but
> can get
> difficult to work with. And putting them on a processing line that
> leads to
> arbitration strikes me as not being a good thing. Is there a better
> way?
> I welcome your thoughts and speculation.

Working in software development, I can tell you that the people on
wikipedia very much resemble those who write code for a living.
Leading programmers is often referred to as "herding cats".

See http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html for an
interesting  essay on group dynamics.

I would say that reminding people often of the goals of wikipedia is
rather important.

Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk

body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> The Wiki way is that you trust people, you listen to people, and
> you
> don't engage in power plays when you're criticized.

Knowing how to respond to criticism is, well, an art, and one that
takes much practice before getting right. I also think that it's hard
enough for native english speakers. It is much more frustrating to
try to respond to criticism well using a foreign language and coming
from a different cultural background.
I call for the exercise of patience.

> > If Erik is going to be micromanaged in his daily goings and
> comings
> > about this, that, or the other, then, he's not an Officer of the
> > Foundation.
>
> I think this is not really where the problem lies.  This isn't
> about
> Erik being micromanaged, it is about him responding to questions
> and
> very mild criticism by accusing people of micromanaging and
> suggesting
> Anthere resign from the board.

I think there's some disagreement between Anthere and Erik that
predates the thread. They need to settle that between themselves. I
also understand how Anthere feels, and I would call on Erik to be
kind with her. Ant, on the other hand, needs to remember that when
the rider wants to horse to run, the rider shouldn't pull on the
reins.

> That is not the wiki way of trust and co-operation.

Actually, I think wikis work in spite of lack of trust and
cooperation. There's been plenty of lack of trust and cooperation,
and yes, the road gets bumpy, but the wiki trucks on. Amazing, no?

I'll agree though that it makes things much more pleasant.

> I agree completely that we should reward people for boldness, and
> that
> we can not and should not micromanage.  I think having a discussion
> about the exact parameters of that can be worthwhile, but I also do
> not
> think it is particularly relevant to this particular case.  The
> problem
> as I see it is unprofessionalism in terms of cutting off such a
> discussion by turning it instantly to questions of who should
> resign.

I don't recall Erik calling for Anthere's resignation. I think I
would have caught that. What he said is that he felt _he_ would have
to resign...

As far as professionalism, I think we can do better than that. Many
professionals I know do it for the money. I see wikipedians as an
extended family of people from all walks of life who share a common
dream. Yes there are family feuds, the odd uncle (you know who you
are Ed), and the terrible kids who never tire of the same old pranks,
but there is also the bond of friendship and common cause that drives
us all to support and encourage each other to be better and to work
harder.

Many people express disgust at the underhanded tactics, political
maneuverings, and downright lies that occasionally pepper our mailing
lists. I too find them unpalatable. However, people are able to rise
above these sordid details and see the future shining ahead like
sunlight between tree leaves on the trail ahead.

It is through adversity that we shape our character. Both
individually and as a group, wikipedians are gaining knowledge,
wisdom, and skills in dealing with difficult issues. I know that
personally, I have learned a lot about myself and have improved in
capacities through my involvement in wikipedia. I know it's not
always easy, but I keep going, and things get better. Much better.

I would like my fellow wikipedians to think of the implications of
our work on our civilization, and then rise above petty infighting.

Please forgive my preachy tone, I haven't had coffee yet :)

Erik, great job. Keep it up. I for one appreciate your efforts.

Ant, great job. Keep it up. I for one appreciate your efforts.

Jimbo, ditto.

Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: No answer, great question

body:
--- "Daniel P. B. Smith" <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:

> Instead of being the trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly,
> courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean,
> reverent,
> and modest person I am now.

I think you forgot "humble" :)

Great piece of insight.

Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
Ben Yates stated for the record:

> Still, someone wrote into boingboing with the following:
>
> "I can't say who I am, but I do work at a company that uses Wikipedia
> as a key part of online marketing strategies. That includes planting
> of viral information in entries...."
>
> How well can wikipedia protect itself against this unfamiliar sort of
> systemic bias?

Check, delete, publicize, ban, lather, rinse, repeat.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Success is going from failure to failure without
  sean at epoptic.com | any loss of enthusiasm. --Winston Churchill


from_name: W. Guy Finley

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk - Outsider POV

body:
On 8/14/05 8:48 AM, "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> I think this is not really where the problem lies.  This isn't about
> Erik being micromanaged, it is about him responding to questions and
> very mild criticism by accusing people of micromanaging and suggesting
> Anthere resign from the board.
>
> That is not the wiki way of trust and co-operation.
>
> I agree completely that we should reward people for boldness, and that
> we can not and should not micromanage.  I think having a discussion
> about the exact parameters of that can be worthwhile, but I also do not
> think it is particularly relevant to this particular case.  The problem
> as I see it is unprofessionalism in terms of cutting off such a
> discussion by turning it instantly to questions of who should resign.
>
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>

I've been lurking here for a while, haven't edited in a while because of
some life changes and an elevated level of Wiki-stress but conversations
like this one that's been bantering about for days is one of the reasons
I've gone on hiatus.  When it penetrates to the upper-most levels it makes
you think.

Jimmy, I don't know if you can consider yourself as objective on this
because if you see Anthere's treatise in response to Erik's report as "mild
criticism" I shudder to think of what severe criticism would be.  In her
Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:52:38 (UTC) email she:

1) Chided Erik in a manner I thought was very condescending: "You were
supposed not (sic)" to do this, "you were supposed not" to do that.

2) Immediately after the condescension launched into the "very serious
problem" of the definition of Erik's role (i.e. "I don't like how you're
doing your job, let's change it)

3) Finally, in this email it was Anthere who made the first shot across the
bow regarding who should resign or be fired:

> Ultimately, we meet two problems, first, some decisions will be forced
> on the board, because it is embarassing to admit an officer pushed a
> decision with a partner or a sponsor which is not actually supported.
> Another outcome is that we have to dismiss you in public, or in front of
> the partner or sponsor.
> Both are equally embarassing (for you, for us, for the organisation) and
> non constructive outcome.

In one email we have rebuke of what he did, a suggestion he needs to have
his job changed and then allusion to being "dismissed in public" - I believe
those would all fall under the definition of stern criticism and certainly
micro-management.  As an outsider, given the rather innocuous nature of the
exchange before Anthere's treatise I would have to say she came loaded for
bear on this one.

Now I spent some time in public service which is a bit similar to the
Foundation now and there's things you do in public and things that you
don't.  As a board member criticizing one of your officers point blank in
public puts egg on that officer's face and makes your organization look like
it engages in open infighting.  I would have suggested a more discrete
method of discourse on this up front.  Now, if that doesn't settle things,
by all means, gore each other in public but as it stands this entire
exchange and the constant back and forth makes the organization look bad.  I
think some need to take a step back, a deep breath, ask themselves exactly
what this disagreement is regarding in the first place and try to go from
there.

--Guy  (en User:Wgfinley)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
Dan Grey stated for the record:

> On 14/08/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>This might be of interest to some:
>>http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/13/bbc_punks_wikipedia_.html -
>>Wikipedia articles (now VfDed) about a fictional popstar being added
>>as part of a viral marketing campaign.
>
>
> The talk pages of the articles concerned do a pretty good job of
> dimissing the notion that this was some sort of viral marketing
> campaign - more a series of honest mistakes.

If it could be shown to the satisfaction of the ArbComm that it was an
organized campaign, I would be in favor of a month-long block on the
entire address space of the organizers, ''pour encourager les autres''.
  We are not a blank billboard, and their graffiti is not welcome.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Success is going from failure to failure without
  sean at epoptic.com | any loss of enthusiasm. --Winston Churchill


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Welcoming Peter C. Wayner and...

body:
If the professor wanted to be tough, he could tell the students they drop by
one letter grade on the assignment if their article goes to VfD and is
deleted
(rather than merged) before the end of the session. 1/2 :-)

Stan

Laura Scudder wrote:

>Except then it wouldn't get edited mercilessly by other Wikipedians.
>The students will probably work a bit harder if they know it's going
>into the main article namespace where it will be subjected to many
>eyes and editors than if it's in their user namespace.
>
>Besides, we don't make other newbies' first articles go up for approval.
>
>
>Laurascudder
>
>On 8/15/05, Chris L?er <chris at zandria.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Peter C. Wayner (who wrote some books on cryptography and one on the
>>>free software movement) is again giving a course on computer science
>>>for non computer-science majors. One of the assignments is to
>>>contribute an article to Wikipedia.
>>>
>>>
>>Couldn't he make the assignment to write an article in a user
>>subpage? Then after everything has been graded and everyone got their
>>credit, the class can sit together and decide which of those articles
>>are worthy of contributions to the article namespace.
>>
>>         Chl
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


from_name: steve v

body:
Subpages? How assume good faith?

SV

--- Chris L?er <chris at zandria.net> wrote:

> Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
> >Peter C. Wayner (who wrote some books on
> cryptography and one on the
> >free software movement) is again giving a course on
> computer science
> >for non computer-science majors. One of the
> assignments is to
> >contribute an article to Wikipedia.
>
> Couldn't he make the assignment to write an article
> in a user
> subpage? Then after everything has been graded and
> everyone got their
> credit, the class can sit together and decide which
> of those articles
> are worthy of contributions to the article
> namespace.
>
>          Chl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sphaera Mundi

body:
Doesnt matter, does it? Its quite fair to mention wher
such matter came from, be it {{sourcewatch}} or
{{planetmath}} etc.

SV

--- Matt R <matt_crypto at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> What's your chief interest here: helping us write an
> encyclopedia, or driving
> up traffic to your website?
>
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/UninvitedCompany_2
>
> -- Matt
>
> --- NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
>
> > Please someone explain to this sysop that articles
> copied from external GFDL
> > wikis must contain proper attribution. We don't
> want our articles to appear
> > in Wikipedia without attribution of the source. If
> you don't want to include
> > the attribution link, please delete articles
> copied from Wikinerds.
>
>
> Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto
> Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________
>
> How much free photo storage do you get? Store your
> holiday
> snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos
> http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


body:
Anyone who has 'trouble' following the rules should get a standard
time-out for each violation, until they either

1. Get a clue, or
2. Choose to be elsewhere

This includes me!

And I'm currently trying this out in conjunction with Sarah, with
Gabriel Simon (aka Gavin the Chosen). He has in fact agreed to this, as
an alternative to going before the arbcom.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Gerard [mailto:fun at thingy.apana.org.au]
> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:29 AM
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] How to work better with brittle users?
>
>
>
> This is a question that has occurred to me in the context of
> arbitration, and how to avoid it.
>
> There's a common personality type for trouble on Wikipedia:
> brittle in interactions with others, can't tolerate
> ambiguity, so gets into rules-lawyering. Sees "common sense"
> and "judgement" mostly as excuses to exercise bias, not as
> recognition that all rules are fluid in the pursuit of our goal.
>
> I am not thinking of any individual, but of a general type
> I've noticed. I think something about Wikipedia will tend to
> attract them. I would *guess* it's something that attracts
> people from further up the autistic spectrum than the general
> populace, but that's just speculation.
>
> The point is that they're good and hard-working contributors,
> but can get difficult to work with. And putting them on a
> processing line that leads to arbitration strikes me as not
> being a good thing. Is there a better way? I welcome your
> thoughts and speculation.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
>


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

body:
... the hundreds of good articles his class is about to contribute.

I put up a note about this in the Village Pump Miscellaneous section.
I hope some of us will try to keep an eye on things and try to make
this years' experience is more positive than last year's. Here's what
I said in the Pump, minus the links:

Peter C. Wayner (who wrote some books on cryptography and one on the
free software movement) is again giving a course on computer science
for non computer-science majors. One of the assignments is to
contribute an article to Wikipedia.

Last year, his students contributed about 600 articles. As he says on
his user page, "Some were great and some were just quick hacks turned
out to get some credit." Most of them went completely unnoticed by
Wikipedians. There was nothing in particular to identify an excellent
article on an unpublished work by Jane Austen as being the product of
a Dartmouth class exercise.

But. Maybe ten per cent of these articles were puff pieces on
subtrivial aspects of Dartmouth student life, talking about some
student activity in language that would have been appropriate to a
recruiting brochure, traditional games played in certain living
units, and so forth. The sudden arrival of a few dozen pieces of
Dartmouthcruft brought out the very worst in the Wikipedian community.

The final disposition of most of these articles was that they were
cleaned up and merged into Dartmouth College, which is a much better
article than it was two years ago, so even these articles were
beneficial, but along the way there was a great deal of unnecessary
incivility and hurt feelings.

This year, let's welcome the Dartmouth students and the hundreds of
decent articles they are about to contribute.

We will probably get a few articles on topics that seem too narrow to
be encyclopedic. Let's remember that redirects are cheap and that
anyone can merge-and-redirect, which is a far gentler process than
nomination for deletion. If we do feel a need to nominate any of them
for deletion, let's really adhere to the policies of

*civility and
*assume good faith and, oh yes,
*Don't bite the newbies.
Nobody is trying to spam us. And we have a standing invitation to
professors to engage in just such projects.

Welcome back, Big Green.

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Andrew Lih

body:
Just a reminder, we have a page to track these types of projects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:School_and_university_projects

Please make sure to add them there, thanks!

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On 8/15/05, Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
> ... the hundreds of good articles his class is about to contribute.
>
> I put up a note about this in the Village Pump Miscellaneous section.
> I hope some of us will try to keep an eye on things and try to make
> this years' experience is more positive than last year's. Here's what
> I said in the Pump, minus the links:
>
>
>
> Peter C. Wayner (who wrote some books on cryptography and one on the
> free software movement) is again giving a course on computer science
> for non computer-science majors. One of the assignments is to
> contribute an article to Wikipedia.
>
> Last year, his students contributed about 600 articles. As he says on
> his user page, "Some were great and some were just quick hacks turned
> out to get some credit." Most of them went completely unnoticed by
> Wikipedians. There was nothing in particular to identify an excellent
> article on an unpublished work by Jane Austen as being the product of
> a Dartmouth class exercise.
>
> But. Maybe ten per cent of these articles were puff pieces on
> subtrivial aspects of Dartmouth student life, talking about some
> student activity in language that would have been appropriate to a
> recruiting brochure, traditional games played in certain living
> units, and so forth. The sudden arrival of a few dozen pieces of
> Dartmouthcruft brought out the very worst in the Wikipedian community.
>
> The final disposition of most of these articles was that they were
> cleaned up and merged into Dartmouth College, which is a much better
> article than it was two years ago, so even these articles were
> beneficial, but along the way there was a great deal of unnecessary
> incivility and hurt feelings.
>
> This year, let's welcome the Dartmouth students and the hundreds of
> decent articles they are about to contribute.
>
> We will probably get a few articles on topics that seem too narrow to
> be encyclopedic. Let's remember that redirects are cheap and that
> anyone can merge-and-redirect, which is a far gentler process than
> nomination for deletion. If we do feel a need to nominate any of them
> for deletion, let's really adhere to the policies of
>
> *civility and
> *assume good faith and, oh yes,
> *Don't bite the newbies.
> Nobody is trying to spam us. And we have a standing invitation to
> professors to engage in just such projects.
>
> Welcome back, Big Green.
>
>
> --
> Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
> "Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
> Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
> Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: James A. Bowery

subject: [Wikitech-l] algebra.com imageleeching

body:
Finlay McWalter wrote:

> Folks,
>      Algebra.com (which also goes by the name cooldictionary.com)
> appears to be leeching images directly from the wikimedia upload server.

What is the accepted means for copying the images from wikipedia?  My
impression was there was some sort of copyright problem due to the fact
that, unlike the text content, the image content of Wikipedia is not,
_reliably_ under one of the free licenses such as the GFDL.


from_name: Laura Scudder

body:
Except then it wouldn't get edited mercilessly by other Wikipedians.
The students will probably work a bit harder if they know it's going
into the main article namespace where it will be subjected to many
eyes and editors than if it's in their user namespace.

Besides, we don't make other newbies' first articles go up for approval.

Laurascudder

On 8/15/05, Chris L?er <chris at zandria.net> wrote:
> Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
> >Peter C. Wayner (who wrote some books on cryptography and one on the
> >free software movement) is again giving a course on computer science
> >for non computer-science majors. One of the assignments is to
> >contribute an article to Wikipedia.
>
> Couldn't he make the assignment to write an article in a user
> subpage? Then after everything has been graded and everyone got their
> credit, the class can sit together and decide which of those articles
> are worthy of contributions to the article namespace.
>
>          Chl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Ros’ Haruo

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 25,
	Issue 4 (intentional subject)

body:
Why does this Digest, received early on the morning of 8/15/05 PST, start
off with two posts from the early days of the Klingon War, both dated
8/7/05, both of which I remember reading "way back when", and then shift to
more temporally appropriate content dated 8/14/05? (I've just kept partial
headers and incipits to show what I mean, excised the rest to save space

Haruo

On 8/15/05, wikipedia-l-request at wikimedia.org <
wikipedia-l-request at wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> Today's Topics:
> 1. Re: Klingon Wikipedia locked (Mark Williamson)
> 2. Re: Klingon Wikipedia locked (Phroziac)
> 3. Re: 3 minutes on Public Domain (SJ)
> 4. Re: correction of errors in articles (Walter van Kalken)
> 5. Sphaera Mundi (NSK)
> 6. Re: Pennsylvania German Wikipedia? (SJ)
> 7. Re: correction of errors in articles (Walter van Kalken)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:33:00 -0700
> From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon Wikipedia locked
>
> I have to wonder, is the Lojban Wikipedia next?
> ------------------------------
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 19:46:16 -0400
> From: Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon Wikipedia locked
>
> Using the name Wikipedia, or whatever it is in Klingon, is probably a
> ------------------------------
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:17:44 +0300
> From: SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] 3 minutes on Public Domain
>
> A loud hurrah! for that. Everyone should play through this short
> ------------------------------
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:54:59 +0700
> From: Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] correction of errors in articles
>
> >Maybe in theory the wiki way is to just let anyone edit things to
> ------------------------------
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:58:12 +0300
> From: NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org>
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Sphaera Mundi
>
> On 1 August 2005 I decided to contribute an article from my wiki
> ------------------------------
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:11:26 +0300
> From: SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Pennsylvania German Wikipedia?
>
> A good rule of thumb for 'enough people' is five people interested in
> ------------------------------
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:09:04 +0700
> From: Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] correction of errors in articles
>
> Sabine Cretella wrote:
>

--
Meet the Whole World Halfway ? Learn and Use Esperanto!
http://www.scn.org/~lilandbr/lang_tax.html ? http://lernu.net


body:
> From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard)
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] How to work better with brittle users?
>
> There's a common personality type for trouble on Wikipedia: brittle in
> interactions with others, can't tolerate ambiguity, so gets into
> rules-lawyering. Sees "common sense" and "judgement" mostly as
> excuses to
> exercise bias, not as recognition that all rules are fluid in the
> pursuit
> of our goal.
>
> I am not thinking of any individual, but of a general type I've
> noticed. I
> think something about Wikipedia will tend to attract them. I would
> *guess*
> it's something that attracts people from further up the autistic
> spectrum
> than the general populace, but that's just speculation.
>
> The point is that they're good and hard-working contributors, but
> can get
> difficult to work with. And putting them on a processing line that
> leads to
> arbitration strikes me as not being a good thing. Is there a better
> way?
> I welcome your thoughts and speculation.

I agree. No answer, but a great question.

And of course this is a general phenomenon on the Internet. In fact I
read an article somewhere that there are a significant number of
autistic individuals who are managing to earn a living primarily
because computer-mediated interactions (email, etc.) provides some
protective insulation against the direct personal contacts that they
have trouble managing.

I don't think I'm going to mention where _I_ score on the AQ test,
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I've also opined (and got shot down on the basis of its being pure
speculation) that some of these "brittle" contributors are just very
_young._ I had a personal run-in with one contributor who
indiscreetly revealed (or asserted) an age in the very early teens. I
have to think that some of the emphasis on pop-culture, fancraft,
Harry Potter, and Pokemon topics is age-related. And a certain degree
of "brittleness" is characteristic of adolescents in general, and
bright adolescents whose intellectual and emotional development is
out of sync in particular.

A common characteristic of that age is a total inability to let
things go and not sweat the small stuff. Every tiny rejection is
fought tooth and nail, not for personal reasons of course, but
because of The Principle Of The Thing.

I am sure that if I personally were fourteen years old right now I
would a) be contributing to Wikipedia and b) would be one of those
"brittle" and problematic users.

Instead of being the trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly,
courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent,
and modest person I am now.

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Ben Yates

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
Still, someone wrote into boingboing with the following:

"I can't say who I am, but I do work at a company that uses Wikipedia
as a key part of online marketing strategies. That includes planting
of viral information in entries, modification of entries to point to
new promotional sites or "leaks" embedded in entries to test diffusion
of information. Wikipedia is just a more transparent version of
Myspace as far as some companies are concerned. We love it (evil
laugh).

On the other side, I love it from an academia/sociological standpoint,
and I don't necessarily have a problem with it used as a viral
marketing tool. After all, marketing is a form of information, with
just a different end point in mind (consuming rather than learning)."

How well can wikipedia protect itself against this unfamiliar sort of
systemic bias?

---------------------
Ben Yates
Wikipedia Blog -- http://wikip.blogspot.com

On 8/15/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/08/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This might be of interest to some:
> > http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/13/bbc_punks_wikipedia_.html -
> > Wikipedia articles (now VfDed) about a fictional popstar being added
> > as part of a viral marketing campaign.
>
> The talk pages of the articles concerned do a pretty good job of
> dimissing the notion that this was some sort of viral marketing
> campaign - more a series of honest mistakes.
>
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Chris Lüer

body:
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>Peter C. Wayner (who wrote some books on cryptography and one on the
>free software movement) is again giving a course on computer science
>for non computer-science majors. One of the assignments is to
>contribute an article to Wikipedia.

Couldn't he make the assignment to write an article in a user
subpage? Then after everything has been graded and everyone got their
credit, the class can sit together and decide which of those articles
are worthy of contributions to the article namespace.

         Chl


body:
Requested articles and requested translations (along with maybe a
pointer to substubs if the prof would count significant expansion)
would be a really good resource for these folks.  Coming up with an
idea for an article on the spot can be hard, so while it's easy for
them to write Dartmouth cruft, prominently displaying requested
articles would make selecting something needed they know about almost
as easy.

Laurascudder

On 8/15/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 15/08/05, Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > But. Maybe ten per cent of these articles were puff pieces on
> > subtrivial aspects of Dartmouth student life, talking about some
> > student activity in language that would have been appropriate to a
> > recruiting brochure, traditional games played in certain living
> > units, and so forth. The sudden arrival of a few dozen pieces of
> > Dartmouthcruft brought out the very worst in the Wikipedian community.
>
> Assuming good faith, all these Dartmouth students will want to write a
> _useful_ article for their course credit. So, let's help them do so.
>
> Would it be worth putting together a quick welcoming page, targeted at
> these students (and anyone else coming along later on the same sort of
> project, since there will be more), which points out resources like
> [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]], [[Wikipedia:Requested article
> translations]] (hey, *I'd* offer bonus credit for a translation),
> [[Wikipedia:Most wanted articles]] &c, with some notes on the kind of
> thing we'd really like and the kind of thing we'd discourage?
>
> This'd also serve as an opportunity to make links like the Help Desk
> clear, mention the talk pages of some users willing to assist, &c
> &c... thoughts?
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
At 10:49 AM 8/15/2005, steve v wrote:
>Subpages? How assume good faith?

No assumptions needed if we know that people come only because it's a
required homework. Nobody would keep them from doing regular edits if
they want to do more than just the homework.

         Chl


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
On 14/08/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> This might be of interest to some:
> http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/13/bbc_punks_wikipedia_.html -
> Wikipedia articles (now VfDed) about a fictional popstar being added
> as part of a viral marketing campaign.

The talk pages of the articles concerned do a pretty good job of
dimissing the notion that this was some sort of viral marketing
campaign - more a series of honest mistakes.

Dan


from_name: topi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Caching Problem?

body:
When including a page by {{:page_B}}into page_A page_A does not get updated
after editing page_B. I think this is due to cached pages. Is that rigth?
And  how can i get page_A get updated without making a minor edit on that
page?

Heinz


from_name: Filzstift

body:
2005/8/14, James R. Johnson <modean52 at comcast.net>:
> Can you give some examples of Penn Dutch, and how it's unique/different from
> Hochdeutsch?

have a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_German_language

Filzstift


from_name: Phroziac

body:
GREAT idea Stan! Would probably improve article quality alot.

On 8/15/05, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> If the professor wanted to be tough, he could tell the students they drop by
> one letter grade on the assignment if their article goes to VfD and is
> deleted
> (rather than merged) before the end of the session. 1/2 :-)
>
> Stan
>
> Laura Scudder wrote:
>
> >Except then it wouldn't get edited mercilessly by other Wikipedians.
> >The students will probably work a bit harder if they know it's going
> >into the main article namespace where it will be subjected to many
> >eyes and editors than if it's in their user namespace.
> >
> >Besides, we don't make other newbies' first articles go up for approval.
> >
> >
> >Laurascudder
> >
> >On 8/15/05, Chris L?er <chris at zandria.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Peter C. Wayner (who wrote some books on cryptography and one on the
> >>>free software movement) is again giving a course on computer science
> >>>for non computer-science majors. One of the assignments is to
> >>>contribute an article to Wikipedia.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Couldn't he make the assignment to write an article in a user
> >>subpage? Then after everything has been graded and everyone got their
> >>credit, the class can sit together and decide which of those articles
> >>are worthy of contributions to the article namespace.
> >>
> >>         Chl
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >WikiEN-l mailing list
> >WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: algebra.com imageleeching

body:
Finlay McWalter schreef:
> Folks,
>      Algebra.com (which also goes by the name cooldictionary.com)
> appears to be leeching images directly from the wikimedia upload server.
>
> Examples:

The are doing this also;
http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/encyclopedie/NL/Rozenblaadje

Is there a good reason to allow direct acces by url to the images? For
the Wikipedia-projects we use the [[image:foobar.png]].

Or use a direct url that is only works for a short time?

--
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


from_name: Thomas Koll

body:
Am 14.08.2005 um 17:08 schrieb James R. Johnson:

> Can you give some examples of Penn Dutch, and how it's unique/
> different from
> Hochdeutsch?

How about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_German_language ?

For me as Bavarian it sounds like Franconian dialect, hard to read
anyways with
many English words.

Did you know that one? Maybe if we ask them they'd like to join the
Wikimedia group.
http://amisch.de/penn/index.php?title=Hauptseite

ciao, tom
--
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
http://www.tomk32.de


from_name: Michael Turley

body:
On 8/14/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
> This is a question that has occurred to me in the context of arbitration,
> and how to avoid it.
>
> There's a common personality type for trouble on Wikipedia: brittle in
> interactions with others, can't tolerate ambiguity, so gets into
> rules-lawyering. Sees "common sense" and "judgement" mostly as excuses to
> exercise bias, not as recognition that all rules are fluid in the pursuit
> of our goal.
>
> I am not thinking of any individual, but of a general type I've noticed. I
> think something about Wikipedia will tend to attract them. I would *guess*
> it's something that attracts people from further up the autistic spectrum
> than the general populace, but that's just speculation.
>
> The point is that they're good and hard-working contributors, but can get
> difficult to work with. And putting them on a processing line that leads to
> arbitration strikes me as not being a good thing. Is there a better way?
> I welcome your thoughts and speculation.
>
>
> - d.

I've dealt with mentally ill and developmentally disabled people for
many years.  It can be very difficult, and over time, it can seem to
become even more so.  These suggestions seem obvious, but they are
what works for me.

Tolerate far more than you're used to tolerating.

Repeat yourself far more often that you're used to repeating yourself.
 Rephrase as necessary.

Be more patient than you've ever dreamed of being.

Make your motivations more clear than you're used to making them.

Give instructions more clearly than you're used to giving them.

If there is a pending escalation warranted, gently warn early, warn
often, and always follow through with exactly what you said.

If there is reward pending, mention it often, and always follow
through with exactly what you promise.

In my observations, among those who care for people with mental
problems there seems to be three types: those with the patience of a
saint, the apathetic, and those who are abusive or nearly so.

Among those who want to wikilawyer everything to death, I don't know
how useful this can be, but the prominence of "ignore all the rules",
and "don't vote on everything" in the Wikipedia culture can be helpful
if they themselves aren't overrun by the recent "write it all down and
vote on it" trend that I think is beginning to take hold.

I think this is why Ed's deletion of the deletion page was so
welcomed.  I think we NEED some more minor edit fights over policies
and procedures, because the rise of wikilawyering is killing "be
bold".  I only hope that any edit fights that take place can be good
natured pillow fights.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia keeps us youthful!

body:
> From: Skyring <skyring at gmail.com>
> On 8/15/05, Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote
>> A common characteristic of [the early teens] is a total inability
>> to let
>> things go and not sweat the small stuff. Every tiny rejection is
>> fought tooth and nail, not for personal reasons of course, but
>> because of The Principle Of The Thing.
>>
>> I am sure that if I personally were fourteen years old right now I
>> would a) be contributing to Wikipedia and b) would be one of those
>> "brittle" and problematic users.
>
> You know, this is pretty much the feeling I got when I had my first
> experience of Wikiconflict. The other guy came across as an
> opinionated teenager.
>
> I was amused to find that he'd had the same perception of me.

How nice to think that Wikipedia keeps our minds youthful!

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Kat Walsh

body:
On 8/15/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Assuming good faith, all these Dartmouth students will want to write a
> _useful_ article for their course credit. So, let's help them do so.
>
> Would it be worth putting together a quick welcoming page, targeted at
> these students (and anyone else coming along later on the same sort of
> project, since there will be more), which points out resources like
> [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]], [[Wikipedia:Requested article
> translations]] (hey, *I'd* offer bonus credit for a translation),
> [[Wikipedia:Most wanted articles]] &c, with some notes on the kind of
> thing we'd really like and the kind of thing we'd discourage?
>
> This'd also serve as an opportunity to make links like the Help Desk
> clear, mention the talk pages of some users willing to assist, &c
> &c... thoughts?
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray

I like this; picking an appropriate topic will probably be the hardest
part. Actually,  [[Wikipedia:School and university projects]] has most
of these links already: perhaps a /studentguide subpage or something
as a welcome page directed at students participating in these
projects?

-Kat
[[User:Mindspillage]]

--
http://www.mindspillage.net *** IM: LucidWaking
"There was a point to this story, but it has temporarily
escaped the chronicler's mind."  --Douglas Adams


from_name: Arkady Rose

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 25, Issue 23

body:
Skyring wrote:

>On 8/8/05, Arkady Rose <arkady at arkady.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>info at antandsons.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Who can I contact to see if I can add links/content to Wikipedia?
>>>
>>>
>>You don't. See that little "edit this page" link? You just dive right on in.
>>
>>
>
>I can't get it to work! I think there's something wrong with the site!
>
>
>
Naughty Skyring! No biscuit!!  :-P

-a


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A specific welcoming page for the Dartmouth class?

body:
> Assuming good faith, all these Dartmouth students will want to write a
> _useful_ article for their course credit. So, let's help them do so.
>
> Would it be worth putting together a quick welcoming page, targeted at
> these students (and anyone else coming along later on the same sort of
> project, since there will be more), which points out resources like
> [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]], [[Wikipedia:Requested article
> translations]] (hey, *I'd* offer bonus credit for a translation),
> [[Wikipedia:Most wanted articles]] &c, with some notes on the kind of
> thing we'd really like and the kind of thing we'd discourage?
>
> This'd also serve as an opportunity to make links like the Help Desk
> clear, mention the talk pages of some users willing to assist, &c
> &c... thoughts?
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk

I think that is a most bodaciously doubleplusgood idea.

Particularly the idea of being positive and suggesting
things we WANT.

As this is the last day of my vacation I will have less
time to work on Wikipedia so maybe you could...
take the initiative on this? I'd be glad to help out,
and by all means put me on the list of users willing to assist
(my Wikipedia username is, you'll never guess this, dpbsmith).

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mail->news gateway

references:
<mailman.15.1123660214.3350.wikitech-l@wikimedia.org>	<42FA8277.2FC5BF3@livejournal.com>	<ddkvjq$c8k$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<ddnacu$nff$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi schreef:

> Apparently Gmane enables this for some newsgroups but not for others.
> For wikitech-l, it is disabled. Both the e-mail address I quoted above
> and the "From" address in all the postings here are unencrypted.
>
> Timwi

Strange. I have done the original requests to gmane for those lists and
I am sure Wikitech-l used to be encrypted.

I have send a request to gmane to put it back on.

--
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk

body:
Walter van Kalken wrote:

>
>>  left the project if they had been treated the same way. My side of
>> the equation is that this needs to stop for any future cooperation to
>> be viable. Conflicts should be resolved in private first before they
>> are carried out on a public mailing list.
>>
> Usually conflicts become public because one of the sides feels he
> doesn't have to respond privately. Same like the conflict between me
> and GerardM which raged on privately, it didn't get solved. I took it
> public and unfortunately it still isn't solved.
>
> Waerth/Walter

Hoi Walter,
There is not much to discuss when you state publicly that you do not
trust me. Nobody in the nl-wikipedia community has given as much
information on what I am doing. You have said things that are not
acceptable to me. You expressed for instance that we should stop the
Kennisnet partnership because I am involved in that. I have mentioned an
idea of yours and I acknowledged it as such that was discussed in a
brainstorm session at Kennisnet and was accused of stealing your idea.

When you spout this kind of nonsense you will not get a solution. You
have to appreciate that I am doing a lot of work and I am not beholden
to anyone. Yes, I very much communicate about what I do. You accuse me
of not "listening" to the community and what I hear is that I have to do
things in the way that you want me to. After Wikimania, I was the only
one who wrote about this event in the Dutch language, there were many
people from the Netherlands.

I wished you opened your eyes and look at what I do and what issues that
I raise. You will find that they have little to do with the nl-wikipedia
itself and that I am more about other things. I care deeply for Commons,
I care deeply for Wiktionary, I care deeply that information will be
free. People in the Netherlands are only 16.000.000, the expertice
Kennisnet builds in using the Wiki is relevant to all people. A great
lexicological resource will be there for everyone. A localised Commons
means Free images for everyone.

 From my perspective I would love to see more of your great ideas like
the scholarship for students, the idea of having a better way of
infoming on statistics. However, your continued sniping that we have
conflict will not solve a thing. If you want to cooperate with me, if
you want to talk with me you need to do just that. This ignoring me like
you have done over the last few months does not help. It is easy to
understand that you do not read everything what I write because you do
not have an interest. If you however decide that I must be up to no good
because I do not contunually  inform you or the nl-wikipedia crowd about
it than you are very much mistaken. I am very accessible, you can find
me on IRC, on skype people and can send me mail. If you do not read what
I write and if you do not want to ask, who is to blame for the problem
that you have with me but yourself ??

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 14/08/05, SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:

> --SJ, reminded of an HL Mencken book from the early 20th century that
> went over the major dialects in the US and their vocabulary quirks in
> surprising detail.  (If you know the one I'm talking about, please
> remind me of its title)

Would this perhaps be the excellent /The American Language/?
Admittedly I can only remember the parts dealing with the English
language, but that may just be reader bias.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Sabine Cretella

body:
Hi Walter,
as agreed in the chat: I am not going to take this personally - really I
marked the mail as to be read as you pointed me to this mail before it
reached the list. In these holiday period work is quite a strange thing
... since there are not many colleagues around it is being concentrated
on those few that are around and this week is going to be the hottest of
the year in terms of colleagues on holiday and quantity of work here in
Italy.
So all mails from mailing lists for now are put aside, otherwise I just
could not make it. I'll read it asap and depending on the relevance of
the contents (of this and my mail) I am going to answer or to the list
or by private mail.
Ciao, Sabine

Walter van Kalken wrote:

> Sabine Cretella wrote:
>
.....snip

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Nicholas Moreau

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on Knockout?

body:
I recently discovered a program called "TKO" (Technical Knockout) on a
Canadian television channel called CH. It was fairly well produced, and it
was my first discovery of the afternoon program. I contacted them, and
they're enthuasiastic about doing a segment on the project, provided they're
renewed for a fourth season.

I imagine they TKO films during the week, it would be tough to find a
qualified Calgary (or at least Albertan) Wikipedian to attend. However, I'll
start considering every possible rep. Alternatively, could Jimmy or any
other Wikimedia board member, schedule a stop in Calgary? If anyone was to
travel long-distance to the saddle city, I doubt one TV segment would be
enough.

I could ask Pyramid if they employ any camera people in Toronto or Hamilton,
in which case I could be the interviewee.

If nothing else, they might just have a segment on the project, with
narration from the hosts.

Nick Moreau
"Zanimum"


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on Knockout?


from_name: Laura Scudder

body:
On 8/15/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
> Make your motivations more clear than you're used to making them.
>

I think this one is the most important one in your list to keep in
mind on wikipedia.  It can be especially hard in non-face-to-face
communications to convey subtle things like tone, but making your
motivations clear can be very mediating in disputes as it helps the
other side understand where you're coming from and exactly what in the
dispute is important to you.  Many negotiations can flounder when
people haggle over results rather than first establishing what's
important to each side and why.

Laurascudder