subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia in China

body:
Austin Hair wrote:

>>For the US, the analog to Tibet would be the overthrow of the monarchy
>>and annexation of Hawaii, or the slaughtering of Native Americans and
>>forcing them to live on undesirable land.
>>
>>
>Both circumstances which took place over a century ago and are now
>universally deplored among our citizens and leaders alike.  Modern times
>demand modern ideals, not arrogant attempts at dynasty.
>
That would be nice.  Instead of hereditary kings we have the corprate
ideals of Brown & Root in Vietnam and of Haliburton in Iraq.

>>When trying to make this more prominent in the [[Hawaii]] article,
>>folks, including myself, were met immediately with abusive responses
>>from fellow users - "ignorant," "intellectually dishonest,"
>>"childish," "blow your own horn."
>>
>>
>As I recall, the overthrow of the monarchy was not state-sponsored, but
>rather a sort of personal coup undertaken unilaterally by our diplomats
>and condemned at the time by President Cleveland.  I also seem to recall
>that the monarchy was restored, with annexation occuring after only
>after it collapsed on itself years later and everyone expected the
>United States to pick up the pieces (it was, after all, "our mess").
>Perhaps the Philippines would be a better analogy.
>
Plausible deniability.  Who was around during the Clinton administration
that was directly affected by the sins of the Cleveland administration?
It's easy to apologize when it's too late for any other meaningful act.
The Catholic Church recently even apologized to Gallileo.  Without even
getting into whether the Bay of Pigs invasion was a good idea the fact
is that the Kennedy administration was quick to distance itself from
that operation when it saw that it was turning into a complete failure.
What kind of an ally is that?

By allowing free enterprise to start the problems the US govenment can
then reject its surrogates when things are going too badly, or send in
the marching bands when there's glory to be had.

>Murdering Indians is bad.  You'll hear no excuses from me on the matter.
>That said, neither I nor any of my ancestors have ever knowingly killed
>an aboriginal native of the American continent, so don't kick my ass
>about it.
>
>
This is a question of collective guilt, not individual guilt.  Of course
those whose families did not immigrate into the US until after that time
had no connection with the event.

Ec


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Delirium wrote:

> Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>> Like the mild napalm-bombing of civilians?
>
> Apparently you are either an idiot or read indymedia for your news, as
> Napalm has not been used in a war for decades.
>
> Meanwhile, the atrocities in Tibet are well documented.

But don't forget the British responsibility in that.  China was allowed
to walk into Tibet as a reward for their resistance to the Japanese.

Ec


list: wikien-l

from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Occupation of Palestine - edit war

body:
On 24 Sep 2004, at 18:30, JAY JG wrote:

> If one can massively re-write any article under VfD and then claim
> that all previous votes are void, it makes a mockery of the VfD
> process.

I strongly disagree. I feel that it is very important that there be the
option to improve an article while it's on VfD.

Frequently, articles get listed on VfD because of valid concerns. Also
not infrequently such concerns then are addressed by altering the
article but not deleting it. It is important that that remain possible.

One example:
- I once stumbled across the article [[?ber]] which was listed on VfD.
The reason for listing it was that people felt it was unencyclopedic
(which it was at the time it was listed) and that the article should be
entered into Wiktionary and removed from the WP.
- I edited the article, in a way that I felt made it more encyclopedic
(albeit far from perfect), thereby addressing the root problem:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
>> title=%dcber&diff=3687497&oldid=3663829
- This resulted in an eventual consensus to keep the article, which has
come along nicely since:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%dcber
(It's still far from perfect, but it contains valid, worthy
information.)

It would IMHO be stupid to disallow pursuing such an avenue.
And yes, after a significant article change a new vote should be held.
Granted, I too would not want to allow random editing purely ''with the
aim'' of voiding previously cast votes.
Granted too, this is a gray area.
However, in this case I grant Ed the benefit of the doubt and don't
think that his motivation was voiding somebody's votes.

Because of the above, I think it's a Very Bad Thing to VfD-list and
protect an article at the same time. The two processes are bound to
conflict. Pick your poison but don't drink from both cups at the same
time.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wiki database system

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Would it be possible to create the GEMET glossary database using this
> tool ? How hard would it then be to create a XML import for the GEMET
> data ??

Well, it can basically recreate everything that fits into an SQL dump
and has a unique key. Table "Xyz" would become [[Data:Xyz]], and each
data row becomes a first revision of a primary key.

What I can't reproduce, at least at the moment, is SQL queries. But I
doubt anyone would volunteer to write an SQL frontend for this;-) But
then, for just storage/retival, it won't be necessary anyway.

I just lookes at the XML data of GEMET. There's a file for every
language, so do you want
1) make tables [[Data:GEMET_DE]], [[Data:GEMET_EN]] etc., or
2) make a single table [[Data:GEMET]] with different fields for each
language?

Both is possible, alas, I have not yet written the retrival part...

Magnus


list: foundation-l

from_name: Sj

subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter

body:
Thank you, Erik.  Your thoughts on layout design for future editions
would be most welcome.  There will be a formal announcement about the
newsletter at the end of this weekend, with more details (such as how
to sign up to receive newsletters and updates via email).

In the meantime, people who are interested in following its ongoing
translation are encouraged to join the translators-l mailing list (see
my next post).

--Sj

On 24 Sep 2004 22:11:00 +0200, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very
> nicely done:
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1
>
> The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the
> content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Steven Melenchuk

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [mrjung@MIT.EDU: DMCA Notification of Infringement
	Letter]

body:
Simple solution: delete image. Problem solved...

~Grunt (Steven Melenchuk)

Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>----- Forwarded message from Michael Jung <mrjung at MIT.EDU> -----
>
>From: Michael Jung <mrjung at MIT.EDU>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:47:06 -0400
>To: jwales at bomis.com
>Subject: DMCA Notification of Infringement Letter
>
>September 24, 2004
>
>
>Jimmy Wales, President
>Wikimedia Foundation
>3911 Harrisburg St. NE
>St. Petersburg, FL 33703
>
>Dear Mr. Wales,
>
>I am writing to you to avail Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) of
>its rights under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). This letter
>is a Notice of Infringement as authorized in ? 512(c) of the U.S. Copyright
>Law. I wish to report an instance of what I feel in good faith is an
>instance of copyright infringement. The infringing material appears on the
>Service for which you are the designated agent.
>
>You are registered with the U.S. Copyright Office as the Designated Service
>Provider Agent to receive notifications of alleged Copyright infringement
>with respect to users of the Service for which you are the Designated Agent.
>
>1. The material which I contend belongs to MIT, and appears illegally on
>the Service is the following: A photograph of Grigori Perelman.
>
>2. The material appears at the website address:
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Perelman.jpg>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Perelman.jpg.
>
>3. My contact information is as follows:
>
>Michael R. Jung
>Associate Counsel for Intellectual Property
>Massachusetts Institute of Technology
>Five Cambridge Center, NE25-230
>Cambridge, MA 02142
>617.253.1606
>mrjung at mit.edu
>
>4. I have a good faith belief that the use of the material that appears on
>the service is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or by
>operation of law.
>
>5. The information in this notice is accurate, and I am authorize to act on
>behalf of the copyright owner.
>
>I declare under the perjury laws of the United States of America that this
>notification is true and correct.
>
>Formalities aside, I would be happy to discuss this issue with you and the
>need to have this photograph removed from your site as quickly as possible,
>my number is above.
>
>
>By typing my name below I affirm this as my digital signature:
>
>/s/ Michael R Jung
>
>
>Michael R. Jung
>Associate Counsel for Intellectual Property
>Massachusetts Institute of Technology
>Five Cambridge Center, NE 25-230
>Cambridge, MA  02142-1493
>
>Phone: (617)253-1606
>Fax: (617)253-1850
>mrjung at mit.edu
>
>This message and any attached documents contain information which may be
>confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under
>applicable law. These materials are intended only for the use of the
>intended recipient. Delivery of this message to any person other than the
>intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality,
>privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication.
>
>----- End forwarded message -----
>
>
>


subject: [Foundation-l] New mailing list for translators

body:
A new multilingual mailing list has been set up for people interested
in translations of wikimedia content.  You can sign up here :

http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l

The list will announce new content for translation as soon as it is
created, and provide a place to talk about the progress of
translations.  New content includes new Mediawiki: messages and
sitewide notices, and important changes to pages on the
wikimediafoundation site.

--SJ


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New mailing list for translators


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
Yann Forget wrote:
> You will say, "What the use to have a DVD if I can see the article
> online."

Perhaps we should prioritize to get the Chinese Wikipedia on DVD.

Lars Aronsson, lars at aronsson.se
--
  Aronsson Datateknik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:38:30 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> This raises an interesting issue.  How to handle indexes.  Typically
> these make references to specific page numbers in paper books, but we
> usually ignore the original pagination when we upload a book.  Maybe an
> index could have the page numbers stripped out and link to some kind of
> search function.  As Spock would say, "Fascinating!"

You could add an anchor tag at each original page-break, and leave the
original index with its page numbers.

+sj+


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very
nicely done:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1

The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the
content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved.

Regards,

Erik


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Memorial wiki and Wikipeople: once more into the
	breach

body:
* There are memorials which regularly get deleted from Wikipedia.  A
few handfuls of them have escaped deletion and are waiting in VfD/Old
to be migrated to a separate wiki for such content.  (Content about
modern people, or the recently deceased, often hard to verify)
* There are also regular bios of modern people who don't seem
encyclopedic, which find their way into the Wikipedia dustbin.
* Finally, there are people who would love a place to collaborate on
genealogy, but recognize that the large collection of structured stubs
such a project would produce, would be somewhat anathema to current
Wikipedia article standards.

The proposal for a Wikimorial/Wikipeople wiki grew slowly out of the
above points; Mav's original idea was called Wikimorial, and most of
the old discussion on meta is at [[m:Wikimorial]] ; more recent
discussions about the name have touched on Wikifamily,  seem to prefer
the name Wikipeople.

The memorial wiki has become as much a dumping ground for obits of
people killed in the disaster, as a memorial to the event and its
extensive aftermath.
Some of the obituary content of the current September 11 memorial wiki
might be better suited for a Wikipeople project (and linked to from a
list on the memorial wiki, for instance).

I would like to see a Wikipeople wiki get off the ground, to help
clarify where certain content related to people should go, and to
encourage contributions from editors on genealogy and 'unencyclopedic'
people.  Please comment.

--
+sj+


from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
On Sep 24, 2004, at 9:48 PM, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Delirium wrote:
>
>> Jens Ropers wrote:
>>
>>> Like the mild napalm-bombing of civilians?
>>
>> Apparently you are either an idiot or read indymedia for your news,
>> as Napalm has not been used in a war for decades.
>>
>> Meanwhile, the atrocities in Tibet are well documented.
>
> But don't forget the British responsibility in that.  China was
> allowed to walk into Tibet as a reward for their resistance to the
> Japanese.
>
> Ec
>

This sounds like it belongs on the Tibet discussion page.

More practically is the question of how to deal with the problems of
blocking of the Chinese Simplified Wikipedia.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:10, Delirium wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>> Tibet is not on the other side of the globe.  At least it has a
>> border with China.  That situation is not comparable to the Iraqi
>> fuck-up.
>
> Indeed, there is no reasonable way to compare the abhorrent Chinese
> atrocities in Tibet, which have included mass forced migrations and
> attacks on religious shrines, to the comparatively mild US atrocities
> in Iraq.
>
> -Mark

Like the mild napalm-bombing of civilians?
Like the mild scattering of depleted uranium all over the country?
Like the mild killings of journalists?
Like the mild forcing of people out of certain areas as before the also
mild siege of Fallujah?
Like the mild shelling of Mosques?


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Genericized trademarks (was Re: wikipedia in China)

body:
Jens Ropers wrote:

> If it acts like napalm but just happens to contain ''slightly''
> different chemicals, ''plus added oxidisers'', then of course it's
> ''totally irresponsible'' to call the substance napalm.
> Jayzuz, that would be like--like calling a land rover a jeep! Or
> calling a whirlpool a jacuzzi!! Or--gasp--calling photocopying
> xeroxing!!! How TOTALLY inaccurate!!!!
> </irony>

Actually, from the perspective of the owners of those respective
trademarks (Jeep, Jacuzzi, and Xerox) it would be totally inaccurate and
irresponsible. You may not personally care about such things, but they
would go to a great deal of effort to discourage people from using those
terms incorrectly.

Wittingly or not, the elements of your analogy have a significant point
in common, which is that these are all trademarks in danger of
genericide (fortunately, a much less violent demise than those you have
been arguing about). Interestingly enough, I discovered that our article
on napalm states that it too is a trademark, belonging in this case to
Dow Chemical. However, my initial research was unable to verify this
claim. Does anybody have a source that could back this up? I rather
wonder whether napalm as a trademark might already have gone generic,
given how many people use it to mean any gasoline-based military
incendiary device, as shown by this discussion.

Instead of flaming each other from divergent points of view, perhaps we
could redirect our focus to getting facts correct in our articles.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Angela

body:
Grunt has deleted the image and I have left a message for the uploader
of it. If they want to claim it was not a copyright violation, I have
a backup of the image.

The Grigori Perelman article also appears on the German and Polish
Wikipedias, but the image was never used there.

I've emailed Michael Jung to inform him of this.

Angela.

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:59:10 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
<jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from Michael Jung <mrjung at MIT.EDU> -----
>
> From: Michael Jung <mrjung at MIT.EDU>
> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:47:06 -0400
> To: jwales at bomis.com
> Subject: DMCA Notification of Infringement Letter
>
> September 24, 2004
>
> Jimmy Wales, President
> Wikimedia Foundation
> 3911 Harrisburg St. NE
> St. Petersburg, FL 33703
>
> Dear Mr. Wales,
>
> I am writing to you to avail Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) of
> its rights under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). This letter
> is a Notice of Infringement as authorized in ? 512(c) of the U.S. Copyright
> Law. I wish to report an instance of what I feel in good faith is an
> instance of copyright infringement. The infringing material appears on the
> Service for which you are the designated agent.
>
> You are registered with the U.S. Copyright Office as the Designated Service
> Provider Agent to receive notifications of alleged Copyright infringement
> with respect to users of the Service for which you are the Designated Agent.
>
> 1. The material which I contend belongs to MIT, and appears illegally on
> the Service is the following: A photograph of Grigori Perelman.
>
> 2. The material appears at the website address:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Perelman.jpg>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Perelman.jpg.
>
> 3. My contact information is as follows:
>
> Michael R. Jung
> Associate Counsel for Intellectual Property
> Massachusetts Institute of Technology
> Five Cambridge Center, NE25-230
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 617.253.1606
> mrjung at mit.edu
>
> 4. I have a good faith belief that the use of the material that appears on
> the service is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or by
> operation of law.
>
> 5. The information in this notice is accurate, and I am authorize to act on
> behalf of the copyright owner.
>
> I declare under the perjury laws of the United States of America that this
> notification is true and correct.
>
> Formalities aside, I would be happy to discuss this issue with you and the
> need to have this photograph removed from your site as quickly as possible,
> my number is above.
>
> By typing my name below I affirm this as my digital signature:
>
> /s/ Michael R Jung
>
> Michael R. Jung
> Associate Counsel for Intellectual Property
> Massachusetts Institute of Technology
> Five Cambridge Center, NE 25-230
> Cambridge, MA  02142-1493
>
> Phone: (617)253-1606
> Fax: (617)253-1850
> mrjung at mit.edu
>
> This message and any attached documents contain information which may be
> confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under
> applicable law. These materials are intended only for the use of the
> intended recipient. Delivery of this message to any person other than the
> intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality,
> privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication.
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
> --
> "La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [personal] Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 65

body:
I'm not completely sure, but the Gongchandang seems to think
ultimately Wikipedia and NPOV are a good thing, in small doses. I
think generally the Gongchandang is for gradual liberalisation of
policy, and Wikipedia gives information that's accurate and unbiased
(or at least we try), which they seem to be OK with to a certain
degree. I think the main issue would be if we said extremely fangeming
stuff ie actively promoting democracy rather than trying to prevent
things in an npov manner.

--node

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:49:29 +1000, Craig Franklin <craig at halo-17.net> wrote:
> Scr?obh Ray Saintonge,
>
> > This is speculative polemic.
>
> > Ec
>
> Yup, and we've got all those shining examples of free, independent media in
> the PRC so that we may witness their enlightened, liberal approach to
> criticism.  Oh wait, no we don't.
>
> If the Chinese government isn't going to let the Chinese media give a
> balanced, NPOV opinion on such things as Falun Gong or Tibet, what makes you
> think that they're going to tolerate Wikipedia, especially Chinese-language
> Wikipedia, doing the same.  Not unless we agree to toe their party line -
> which, I would sincerely hope, we're not actually willing to do.
>
> Quite frankly, I'm surprised that Wikimedia has remained unblocked in China
> for as long as it has been.
>
> Regards,
> - Craig Franklin
>
> -------------------
> Craig Franklin
> PO Box 764
> Ashgrove, Q, 4060
> Australia
> http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
> and Culture.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Not to forget the mild murder of Iraqi POVs.
And the mild torture of Iraqi POVs.
And the mild flouting of the U.N and mild U.N.-confirmed breach of
international law that was invading the country in the first place.
And the mild taking of civilian hostages by U.S. forces. (I ain't
making this up -- the U.S. arrested in large numbers the wifes of
*suspected* Iraqi resistance fighters to blackmail their husbands to
lay down their arms. (Iraqis have a right to bear arms.) Note that
these women were civilians who had not committed any crimes. Add to
that the fact that it is internationally known and established by even
U.S. military tribunals that Iraqi civilians have previously been
tortured and killed while in U.S. custody and you should get an idea
why the current despicable acts of Iraqis abducting and killing U.S.
civilians didn't come out of the blue. What would YOU do if a
militarily superior foreign army occupying your country were to suspect
you of being a resistance fighter, possibly purely based on what area
you live in? What would you do if your wife then got arrested by an
occupying force which you know has previously tortured and killed
people they arrest? I'm asking you to seriously follow through this
thought experiment: How do you think you would react?)

Mild indeed.

To my mind, Ray's choice of words--"fuck-up"--is FAR more accurate.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:27, Jens Ropers wrote:

>
> On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:10, Delirium wrote:
>
>> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>
>>> Tibet is not on the other side of the globe.  At least it has a
>>> border with China.  That situation is not comparable to the Iraqi
>>> fuck-up.
>>
>> Indeed, there is no reasonable way to compare the abhorrent Chinese
>> atrocities in Tibet, which have included mass forced migrations and
>> attacks on religious shrines, to the comparatively mild US atrocities
>> in Iraq.
>>
>> -Mark
>
> Like the mild napalm-bombing of civilians?
> Like the mild scattering of depleted uranium all over the country?
> Like the mild killings of journalists?
> Like the mild forcing of people out of certain areas as before the
> also mild siege of Fallujah?
> Like the mild shelling of Mosques?


body:
Can this be made available via email as well, same as with Featured
Articles?

-- ropers

On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:11, Erik Moeller wrote:

> I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very
> nicely done:
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1
>
> The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the
> content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik


subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
I don't think I understand your point since there is absolutely no
reason for people to be uploading new images with deprecated licence
tags. "Unknown" is not an option. If you don't know the licence,
simply do not upload it. Such images will be deleted via the new
process at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images

The new upload form will not apply to existing images. Those are being
dealt with via the tagging drive at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images

Angela.

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:13:57 +0200, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> May I STRONGLY suggest that we include ALL the other depreciated image
> tags as well?
>
> Rationale:
> Migrating from the current technical possibility not to include ANY
> tag/description while uploading directly to the limited choice of tags
> as per the below mockup link would be too big of a change for many
> users, who will feel--wrong as they might be--that their images "have
> to be included". This will lead to many folks picking "unknown/don't
> know" (unbekannt/weiss nicht) -- and practically having no license tags
> is ACUTELY worse than having depreciated license tags. We should have
> MORE metadata, not less of it. Having "depreciated license"-images in
> there (marked as depreciated) is A LOT better because we can always
> deal with these pics and/or that entire category later and we'll at
> least know where things are at as regards these pics. We WON'T know
> that in case of "unknown/don't know" -- these would just be a wild heap
> of wildly unknown stuff, making it acutely harder to deal with in the
> future.


body:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:48:40 +0200, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> Can this be made available via email as well, same as with Featured
> Articles?

The original aim of the newsletter was to send it out via email,
possibly in a ready-to-print format. There will at some point be a
mailing list in which people can sign up to receive the newsletter and
other important Foundation announcements.

Angela.


body:
May I STRONGLY suggest that we include ALL the other depreciated image
tags as well?

Rationale:
Migrating from the current technical possibility not to include ANY
tag/description while uploading directly to the limited choice of tags
as per the below mockup link would be too big of a change for many
users, who will feel--wrong as they might be--that their images "have
to be included". This will lead to many folks picking "unknown/don't
know" (unbekannt/weiss nicht) -- and practically having no license tags
is ACUTELY worse than having depreciated license tags. We should have
MORE metadata, not less of it. Having "depreciated license"-images in
there (marked as depreciated) is A LOT better because we can always
deal with these pics and/or that entire category later and we'll at
least know where things are at as regards these pics. We WON'T know
that in case of "unknown/don't know" -- these would just be a wild heap
of wildly unknown stuff, making it acutely harder to deal with in the
future.

On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:34, Sj wrote:

> <snip>
>
> new upload form.  The
> important text for those pages
> has been translated already; but that's the easy part compared to
> actually implementing it.
>
> http://www.ru-info.de/upload_neu.htm
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/New_upload_form
>
> --Sj
>
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:17:22 +0630, Eric P?hlsen
> <eric at eric-poehlsen.de> wrote:
>>> 2) fix stupid upload form


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Jens Ropers wrote:

> No, I don't want you to apologize for publicly insulting me. I want
> you  to do something else instead:
> Watch a film that actually contains footage of a U.S. soldier
> mentioning napalm use in Iraq and shows actual napalm inflicted
> wounds.  Watch Fahrenheit 9/11 and I'll be happy to call it quits
> between us.

Or if you want something with less showmanship than what Moore tends to
exhibit try http://csis.org/features/040922_IraqiMinisterVisit.pdf for
an analysis of the current situation in Iraq.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:

> Angela wrote:
>
>> Brion wrote:
>
>>> There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will
>>> be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism.
>>
>> That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;)
>
> A cd-edition of the german wikipedia is currently produced. Before we
> gave the data away, I did a fulltext search on several terms like this
> - I didn't get any results ;-)

Is the search function currently picking up the offending term when it
is buried in a would-be 12-letter word as in the example?

Ec


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:

>Yann Forget wrote:
>
>
>>You will say, "What the use to have a DVD if I can see the article
>>online."
>>
>>
>
>Perhaps we should prioritize to get the Chinese Wikipedia on DVD.
>
>
>Lars Aronsson, lars at aronsson.se
>
>
Playing politics is bullshit. If the process of making a DVD is
worthwhile, let's learn how to do it. Any reason is a good reason. Doing
English/French is a good idea as it gets us money in the bank, kudo's in
the open source world. We learn in the process, and we will find that we
will need to apply the lessons learned for all kinds of other stuff. The
dead trees project comes to mind. At $ 10,-- an hour we need money to
maintain our current size. As we have grown 100% since february, we have
to get money to pay for next years growth as well.

This being wikipedia, shut up this useless chatter who is the worst
agressor as it is POV. If you wanna walk the talk, research, write
articles if you must but do not bore us with this righteous chatter. It
does not help the availability of the Chinese wikipedia. Leave that to
people who can do things about availability, and if you want to do
something wring your hands, scratch your head, research / write an
article do something usefull.

Sorry,
    GerardM


subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionth article on Sep 14

body:
Erik Zachte wrote:

>Ray:
>
>
>>Of course it's impossible.
>>
>>
>....
>
>
>>It's all about publicity.  You look at whoever wrote the first new article
>>
>>
>after 21:55
>on Sept. 14; send him a T-shirt and mousepad with the logo, and make a big
>fuss about it.
>
>Well this article, not being the true millionth article (see previous
>discussion), was at least the millionth article still in the database when
>the dumps were made on Sep 20:
>
>Added Sep 14, 21:55:16
>http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%93%D7%92%D7%9C_%D7%A7%D7%96%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%
>98%D7%9F
>
>I hope it is not controversial in any way, it looks like a peaceful image.
>The text is minimal, but most articles started that way.
>
>
That's great news!  A Hebrew language article about the flag of
Kazakhstan!  I'm glad that it wasn't an English language article.
Perhaps one of our Hebrew editors could be prevailed upon to expand on
the stub with things like information about the background of the flag's
origin etc.  before you make the announcement that a scientific survey
of our database has determined that "Somebody's name" has contributed
this as the official 1 millionth article. :-)

Ec


from_name: Austin Hair

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia in China

body:
> That would be nice.  Instead of hereditary kings we have the corprate
> ideals of Brown & Root in Vietnam and of Haliburton in Iraq.

Are you trying to be sardonic?  I don't know about you, but I prefer the
idea of a meritocracy to its converse.

> Plausible deniability.  Who was around during the Clinton administration
> that was directly affected by the sins of the Cleveland administration?
> It's easy to apologize when it's too late for any other meaningful act.
> The Catholic Church recently even apologized to Gallileo.  Without even
> getting into whether the Bay of Pigs invasion was a good idea the fact
> is that the Kennedy administration was quick to distance itself from
> that operation when it saw that it was turning into a complete failure.
> What kind of an ally is that?

You may want to take a moment and think about what you're saying.  We're
talking about the Cleveland administration, after all, a period of time
during which the most urgent of diplomatic messages took *weeks* to
deliver.  Even the wildest conspiracy theories don't propose such
orchestration, in part because "plausible deniability" was an entirely
alien (and unnecessary -- consider Manifest Destiny) concept.

> By allowing free enterprise to start the problems the US govenment can
> then reject its surrogates when things are going too badly, or send in
> the marching bands when there's glory to be had.

Brilliance.

> This is a question of collective guilt, not individual guilt.  Of course
> those whose families did not immigrate into the US until after that time
> had no connection with the event.

And those whose great-great-great uncles were plantation slaves do?

> Ec

--
Austin D. Hair <austin at austinhair.org>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Callidus
http://www.austinhair.org/
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body:
Brion wrote:
> Wikipedia is a very valuable resource, but it's a *dynamic* one.

It's not dynamic for the majority of users. Most users of the site
will simply read the article, and never edit it, regardless of how
wrong it might be. Therefore, for everyone other than the editors of
the site, a snapshot on DVD is no worse than the snapshot they see of
the online Wikipedia.

> There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will
be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism.

That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;)

> And in six months when they go to press, the Wikipedia on the web will be much
improved

I don't see how this is an argument against a DVD version. The live
website will always be better, and we will prominently link to it from
any static version, but if the site is acceptable enough to allow the
public to see it, why is a DVD not?

Wikipedia is a useful resource, despite its shortcomings. It's not
just some draft awaiting approval before publication. It is already
being published, even if only online. The validation processes will
improve Wikipedia, but they should not be force the current version to
be seen as some second-class useless collection of articles that can't
be distributed. Wikipedia is good enough to distribute now and the
possibility of a better version in 6 months does not negate that.

Erik wrote:
> Well, we obviously can't stop them from doing it. As long as we've
> publicly and privately disclaimed liability, I think we're reasonably safe
> from a legal position.

Villy is working on a formal contract with them, so the assurances
they have given us informally will be put into writing. We can never
guarantee our content will be entirely free from copyright violations
and no amount of Google checking will solve that. The publishers will
obviously need disclaimers, insurance, and an easy way of correcting
this for future distributions.

> 1) make open list of untagged images and announce properly on community
> portal and the like that all of these images which are not tagged by date
> N will be hidden

There is a list at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images which has been
advertised many times on the village pump, goings on, the mailing list
and in the IRC channel topic. It's now on the portal as well. I don't
think threatening to hide them will help since there is already the
threat to delete them at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images

> 2) fix stupid upload form

I strongly agree. Even the one currently on the test wiki at
http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload is better than the
current one. Is there any reason the one at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Uploadform1.png can not be used?
If it's nowhere near completion, perhaps the developer committee could
consider putting a bounty on it?

mav wrote:
> But would it be possible to automatically exclude untagged images

They will be excluded automatically from the DVD edition. I don't yet
know how the captions will be hidden from articles in cases where the
image doesn't exist.

Angela.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
On 24 Sep 2004, at 23:23, Delirium wrote:

> Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>> Like the mild napalm-bombing of civilians?
>
> Apparently you are either an idiot or read indymedia for your news, as
> Napalm has not been used in a war for decades.

I do not read indymedia for my news. (Google just told me that
indymedia.org was an apparently non-mainstream news website. Nothing
wrong with that IMHO.)

Yet I understand your exasperation. I would be exasperated too if my
government invaded and napalm-bombed foreign countries. (I'm assuming
here that you're a U.S. citizen, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

HOWEVER: It might be a good idea to first do a quick Google search
before calling people names:

* The Age (Australian newspaper)
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/23/1048354475977.html?
oneclick=true

Interestingly, even the Pentagon's denial (what do you expect?) of the
facts U.S. Marine officers repeatedly confirmed (the use of napalm in
Iraq) contained the admission that napalm has been used in 1993. So
even if you choose to doubt the integrity of your actual troops on the
ground and trust the Pentagon's statement instead, then you'd still
have to explain how "used in 1993" is "not used in decades".

Finally, this article explains that discrepancy:

NAPALM BY ANOTHER NAME:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/08/1060145870882.html?
oneclick=true

<irony>
So I apologize for maliciously drawing the noble and good name of the
U.S. military through the mud.
If it acts like napalm but just happens to contain ''slightly''
different chemicals, ''plus added oxidisers'', then of course it's
''totally irresponsible'' to call the substance napalm.
Jayzuz, that would be like--like calling a land rover a jeep! Or
calling a whirlpool a jacuzzi!! Or--gasp--calling photocopying
xeroxing!!! How TOTALLY inaccurate!!!!
</irony>

No, I don't want you to apologize for publicly insulting me. I want you
to do something else instead:
Watch a film that actually contains footage of a U.S. soldier
mentioning napalm use in Iraq and shows actual napalm inflicted wounds.
Watch Fahrenheit 9/11 and I'll be happy to call it quits between us.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia in China

body:
BRAVO!

On 25 Sep 2004, at 00:01, Andrew Lih wrote:

> For the US, the analog to Tibet would be the overthrow of the monarchy
> and annexation of Hawaii, or the slaughtering of Native Americans and
> forcing them to live on undesirable land.
>
> When trying to make this more prominent in the [[Hawaii]] article,
> folks, including myself, were met immediately with abusive responses
> from fellow users - "ignorant," "intellectually dishonest,"
> "childish," "blow your own horn."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hawaii/archive2#Hawaii_history
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:
> Hawaii#Bias_against_sovereignty_position
>
> Nationalistic groupthink is exhibited in many articles, not just China
> related ones.
>
> -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Hi,

Le Tuesday 21 September 2004 22:25, Ray Saintonge a ?crit :

> >>translated.  Tagore died in 1941, so his works are essentially all in
> >>the public domain based on the life plus 60 law that prevails for India.
> >
> >I am not sure. Does this apply worldwide?
> >If yes, I have some texts available for Wikisource.
>
> For the relevant Indian law see
> http://www.naukri.com/lls/copyright/section5.htm#22
>
> For the relationship to US law see [[Itar-Tass Russian News Agency v.
> Russian Kurier, Inc.]] in Wikipedia.

For me, this looks like a dead old language.
Doesn't even deserve a wiki. ;o)

> Ec

Le Tuesday 21 September 2004 19:46, Mark Williamson a ?crit :
> Hmm...
>
> If it does, I can help with typing them in (if they're not already typed).

For a start, I have already 8 volumes from Mahadev Desai who was the personal
secretary of M. K. Gandhi and died in 1942. These are his dairy during the
25 years he worked with Gandhi.

See http://r2d2.homeunix.org/mahadev_desai/day-to-day/ (600 to 850 KB of plain
English text each)
cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahadev_Desai

I created the base but there is a lot of work, especially because each volume
has an index, which would be nice to have it working.
cf. http://wikisource.org/wiki/Day_to_Day_with_Gandhi

> --node

Regards,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


body:
On Sep 25, 2004, at 1:28 AM, Michael Snow wrote:

> Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>> If it acts like napalm but just happens to contain ''slightly''
>> different chemicals, ''plus added oxidisers'', then of course it's
>> ''totally irresponsible'' to call the substance napalm.
>> Jayzuz, that would be like--like calling a land rover a jeep! Or
>> calling a whirlpool a jacuzzi!! Or--gasp--calling photocopying
>> xeroxing!!! How TOTALLY inaccurate!!!!
>> </irony>
>
> Actually, from the perspective of the owners of those respective
> trademarks (Jeep, Jacuzzi, and Xerox) it would be totally inaccurate
> and irresponsible. You may not personally care about such things, but
> they would go to a great deal of effort to discourage people from
> using those terms incorrectly.
>
> Wittingly or not, the elements of your analogy have a significant
> point in common, which is that these are all trademarks in danger of
> genericide (fortunately, a much less violent demise than those you
> have been arguing about). Interestingly enough, I discovered that our
> article on napalm states that it too is a trademark, belonging in this
> case to Dow Chemical. However, my initial research was unable to
> verify this claim. Does anybody have a source that could back this up?
> I rather wonder whether napalm as a trademark might already have gone
> generic, given how many people use it to mean any gasoline-based
> military incendiary device, as shown by this discussion.
>
> Instead of flaming each other from divergent points of view, perhaps
> we could redirect our focus to getting facts correct in our articles.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
> ______________________

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?
f=toc&state=vg813n.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=
yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2
=Napalm&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_sea
rch=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query

Urban legend (currently in some wiki articles) Napalm is not a
trademark. Napalm-B was used in Vietnam, and the word is now "a generic
term for jellied gasoline". That is gasoline stablized by use of
plastics.

And genericide isn't a crime, the accepted definition removes trademark
status when a word enters common use. Companies discourage use of
trademarked words as regular words, not because it is against the law,
but because it is not against the law.


body:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:23:22 +0100, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> I had thought Wikipeople was supposed to take over what is currently
> the September 11 memorial wiki. I've posted about this to Foundation-l
> earlier today since Wikipeople would be a new project rather than part
> of Wikipedia. See
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/001098.html
>
> There are a number of questions at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipeople which need to be
> addressed before Wikipeople can start.

Ahh, emails passing in the night.  Now I see your post on
foundation-l.  We certainly need to reach some kind of consensus
before setting out on a new project.  I've commented on the questions
at that page.

--
+sj+


from_name: Erik Zachte

body:
I got a rough estimate of when the millionth article was added:

If the 109 cur/old dumps from Sep 20 would tell the whole story it would
have been at Sep 14 at about 21:55 hrs (server time).

Of course articles were deleted between Sep 14 and Sep 20 so the result
would have been different with dumps from an earlier date.
In fact it would bring the time forward.

At the other hand some articles may not have matched the criterium of 'no
redirect' and 'at least one internal link' on Sep 14, while they did at Sep
20.

I collected all articles in the 'cur' database that fulfilled the criteria
at the time of the dump, then found the time they were added either in 'cur'
or 'old'.

Duplicate articles were ignored (they happen sometimes after clicking 'save'
twice within seconds), also articles that exist only in old were not counted
(a few hundred, they may partially be explained by different dump times for
cur and old, with deletions coming in between, but probably mostly are just
aborted transactions).

As said I processed the 109 languages that are currently in the weekly stats
job, so I might have missed a few entries in very recent startup languages
that are still looking forward to their first milesone of 10 articles :)

Given all the above, I think it is not useful to point to one specific
article as the millionth, as too much noise is available.

Erik Zachte


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:
> Yes, if every other article is about failure of this and breakdown of
> that, with Falung and Commies and Free Tibet all over the place, I
> would shut it down too.

Surely you don't mean that.

--Jimbo


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
On Sep 25, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Brion-
>> As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's
>> remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you
>> on this?
>
> My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more
> time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd
> like
> to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the
> basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a
> <selection> to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}},
> {{PD}}
> etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward.

Spiffy, thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Sep 25, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Brion-
>> As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's
>> remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you
>> on this?
>
> My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more
> time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd
> like
> to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the
> basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a
> <selection> to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}},
> {{PD}}
> etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward.

Spiffy, thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Sep 25, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Brion-
>> As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's
>> remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you
>> on this?
>
> My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more
> time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd
> like
> to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the
> basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a
> <selection> to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}},
> {{PD}}
> etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward.

Spiffy, thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Sep 25, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Brion-
>> As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's
>> remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you
>> on this?
>
> My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more
> time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd
> like
> to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the
> basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a
> <selection> to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}},
> {{PD}}
> etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward.

Spiffy, thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:
> Like I said, no article.
>
> We're building an encyclopedia, not an activist website.

"Having no article" in order to pander to censorship is activism of
the worst kind...

--Jimbo


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople

body:
After discussing the creation of Wikipeople on IRC this evening, I am
no longer convinced that there is a consensus about what the proposed
project is supposed to be.

Personally, I had thought it was supposed to take over what is
currently the September 11 memorial wiki, but perhaps I was mistaken
about that being its aim due to the fact the discussion of Wikipeople
started out at the Wikimorial page on Meta.

I think a lot of questions need answering before the project can be created.
For example:
1 Should this project exist?
2 Should the current Sep11 wiki articles be moved here?
3 Should the Sep11 wiki be removed and redirected to Wikipeople?
4 Should the creation of this project wait until a Wikidata structure exists?
5 Should Wikidata be a project that can hold both Wikipeople and Wikispecies?
6 Should this be a project in its own right with no links to Sep11
wiki or Wikispecies?
7 Which domain should be used?

If anyone has opinions on the above points, please make them at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipeople so that an informed
decision can be made about whether to create this project and what its
aim is supposed to be.

Thanks.

Angela.


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:
> No, not ditto for the Tiananmen stuff. Yes it's horrible, but did you
> know that a 1850 rebellion cause 50 million deaths in China? Where's
> that article?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_Ping_Rebellion

> Yes, the US government (bombmaking, etc),

There is no law in the US which would prevent Wikipedia from
publishing detailed bomb-making instructions, despite Senator
Feinstein's (D-California) ongoing efforts.

If the US government does attempt to ban speech that properly goes
into our encyclopedia, we should disboey that law.

> the UK government (a very recent letter on this very mailing list,
> or is it the other? about the academy for gifted kids),

I think that can *hardly* be classed as an attempt to censor
wikipedia, by the UK government.  It was a routine complaint about a
bad article, and a request for assistance in understanding the best
way to fix it.

But to be clear: if the UK government does attempt to ban speech that
properly goes into our encycloepdia, we should disobey that law.

>the French government (Nazi stuff),

Again, I have been sharply critical of French government censorship
policies, but I do not think that their laws directly impact us.  But
again to be clear: if the French government does attempt to ban speech
that properly goes into our encycloepdia, we should disobey that law.

Freedom of speech is a fundamental human right.  And the subcategory
of speech that we call NPOV is even _moreso_ a fundamental human
right.  To outlaw advocacy is deeply wrong, but to outlaw information
itself...

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia  in China

body:
Anthere wrote:
> I do not mean chinese editors should not talk about the controversial
> issues, but if they should also take *great care* to talk about the good
> points above mentionned.

I am not yet sure that Anthere and I agree in every respect on these
issues, but I do agree with this point: Chinese editors who are
working on sensitive topics should take *great care* to be sure that
their writing is impeccable.  Force the authorities to implicitly or
explicitly concede that it isn't libel or falsehoods being banned, but
information itself.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] China and principles

body:
First of all, let me say that as always, for me NPOV is
non-negotiable.  There will be no policy which says that Chinese
wikipedia must avoid topics that are upsetting to the Chinese
government.  Chris Mahan and anyone else who advocates for such a
policy may continue to do so, and such a discussion might prove
interesting, but please do so with full knowledge that I place a very
absolute firm veto on the idea from the outset, so the discussion will
necessarily be academic only.

I don't exercise my authority much, but I have always said that NPOV
is non-negotiable, and I really do mean that.

Having said that, I also think that the best approach for us is to
work within the Chinese system to whatever degree is possible.  That
is, although I do not know much about Chiense law, I know that the
Chinese constitution guarantees the freedom of speech, press,
assembly, and that Chinese law does allow for these things to a
degree.  It is most likely the case that Wikipedia's policies of
neutrality mean that we do not actually violate Chinese law, although
in the long run we may have to go into court in China to prove it.

This will be difficult and expensive, but it is a far better route
than either of wild ranting against the Chinese government and a far
far far better route than to give up our neutrality principles for the
sake of convenience.

--Jimbo

--
"La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

body:
Angela wrote:
> Brion wrote:

>>There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will
>>be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism.
>
> That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;)

A cd-edition of the german wikipedia is currently produced. Before we
gave the data away, I did a fulltext search on several terms like this -
I didn't get any results ;-)

greetings,
elian


from_name: Jiong Sheng

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia in China

body:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:47:58 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Certainly, but dealing with the PRC is dealing with bureaucracy more
> than dealing with "communism".  Bureaucrats tend not to consider what
> others are doing as part of their job description.  They tend to uphold
> the law based on their own narrow views of what that law means, and what
> they feel will please their superiors..  This results in very
> conservative decisions.  They would do Dilbert proud.
>
> The present crisis, like the last one of the kind, will probably be
> solved by our colleagues in China, who have experience in approaching
> Kafka's Castle.  Those of us on the outside need to be patient, and
> avoid compromising the situation that our colleagues find themselves in.
>
>
>
> Ec

You are absolutely right. Sometimes it is not the government's will to
block certain sites: the government usually only give guide lines. It
is in the hands of those bureaucrats who determine the fate of
Wikipedia. In fact I am not so worried if this ban can be lifted, but
rather I am worrying about this kind of periodical blocking might have
adverse effects on the development of Chinese Wikipedia: we will not
be able to sustain our growth for long before another block disrupts.
Every blocking takes at least three months to recover.

So that was the rationale behind my suggestions in June, when we were
first blocked. To take legal actions, or broadcast to worldwide media,
so that the top officials notice us, and might give explicit
instructions not to block Wikipedia. I believe that is what happens to
google few years ago: the top rank governors of the country noticed
the event, and an order was given. However this could be a dangerous
move too: if we really angers someone on top then we will forever be
blocked.

formulax


body:
Ray:
> Of course it's impossible.
....
>It's all about publicity.  You look at whoever wrote the first new article
after 21:55
on Sept. 14; send him a T-shirt and mousepad with the logo, and make a big
fuss about it.

Well this article, not being the true millionth article (see previous
discussion), was at least the millionth article still in the database when
the dumps were made on Sep 20:

Added Sep 14, 21:55:16
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%93%D7%92%D7%9C_%D7%A7%D7%96%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%
98%D7%9F

I hope it is not controversial in any way, it looks like a peaceful image.
The text is minimal, but most articles started that way.

Erik Zachte


subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionth article

body:
Oh now I see, its the Kazakhstan flag

Erik Zachte


body:
I had thought Wikipeople was supposed to take over what is currently
the September 11 memorial wiki. I've posted about this to Foundation-l
earlier today since Wikipeople would be a new project rather than part
of Wikipedia. See
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/001098.html

There are a number of questions at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipeople which need to be
addressed before Wikipeople can start.

Angela.


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia in China

body:
For the US, the analog to Tibet would be the overthrow of the monarchy
and annexation of Hawaii, or the slaughtering of Native Americans and
forcing them to live on undesirable land.

When trying to make this more prominent in the [[Hawaii]] article,
folks, including myself, were met immediately with abusive responses
from fellow users - "ignorant," "intellectually dishonest,"
"childish," "blow your own horn."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hawaii/archive2#Hawaii_history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hawaii#Bias_against_sovereignty_position

Nationalistic groupthink is exhibited in many articles, not just China
related ones.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:23:46 -0400, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> Jens Ropers wrote:
>
> > Like the mild napalm-bombing of civilians?
>
> Apparently you are either an idiot or read indymedia for your news, as
> Napalm has not been used in a war for decades.
>
> Meanwhile, the atrocities in Tibet are well documented.
>
> In any case, the point is that the en: wikipedia should have documented
> US atrocities, like [[Abu Ghraib]], and the zh: Wikipedia should have
> documented Chinese atrocities.  Advocating removing either of them is
> unacceptable.
>
> -Mark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Andrew Lih
andrew.lih at gmail.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia in China

body:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:30:13 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> >>http://tinyurl.com/3ctz9
> >>http://tinyurl.com/ys9zf
> >
> >I strongly advise you not to do this again. A lot of the people on
> >this list (myself included) are in a work environment.
> >
> I think that warning people that these are sound files should be
> enough.  Approaching the subject with a sense of humour is always
> welcome.  I don't think that it is up to us to get into the debate about
> using an employer's computers for personal uses.
>
> We've been condemning censorship in China, and now your suggesting
> another kind of censorship.

It is not censorship, it's about good netiquette.

--
Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Oh, yes, he does! You just havn't tangled with him before. However in the
context of this discussion I took his suggestion as made in good faith as a
way to maintain access to Wikipedia in China.

Fred

> From: "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 02:45:12 -0700
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China
>
> Christopher Mahan wrote:
>> Yes, if every other article is about failure of this and breakdown of
>> that, with Falung and Commies and Free Tibet all over the place, I
>> would shut it down too.
>
> Surely you don't mean that.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia in China

body:
Perhaps today a wayward Chinese soldier would be tempted by a Blackberry. I
think the prosperity of China is great. Live long and prosper...

Fred

> From: "yuanml" <yuanml at pku.org.cn>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:28:24 +0800
> To: "wikipedia-l" <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia in China
>
> To Fred Bauder:
>> There have been instances where Chinese troops have been undisciplined.
>> All it proves is that people who have been desperately poor
>> all their lives were tempted by wristwatches and ballpoint pens.
>
> Do you know what you said is things about 20 years ago when I'm only a child?
> Do you know China have the most cell-phone users in the world now?
> Do you know China have ten million broadband Internet users,
> just after USA, Japan and Korea, and will surpass Korea soon?
> Yes, we are a developing country, but we are developing fast.
>
> I have to say that the mailing list now is full of bias on China.
>
> About Tibet problem, I provide some history issue
> to reflect the common opinion in China.
> Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama must be approved their identity
> by the central government since Qing dynasty hundreds years ago.
> Just in 1910s when China was very weak,
> there was a movment to divided Tibet from China.
> Great British took some part in the issue,
> And we dislike the colonialism role of Great British.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Lars Aronsson wrote:
> > Yann Forget wrote:
> > > You will say, "What the use to have a DVD if I can see the article
> > > online."
> > Perhaps we should prioritize to get the Chinese Wikipedia on DVD.
> Playing politics is bullshit.

I'm not "playing politics", I'm just reflecting on the fact that
Wikipedia is blocked in the People's Republic, or so I'm told. I don't
know Chinese and I don't know DVD, so I cannot offer much help here.
But I understand it could be useful to have the contents distributed
on physical media in a country with a varying degree of Internet
connectivity.

Lars Aronsson, lars at aronsson.se
--
  Aronsson Datateknik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
This is thinking regarding [[The Great Game]], an existing article. However
it does not contain any information regard Tibet as yet.

Fred

> From: "Andre Engels" <andrewiki at freemail.nl>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:38:42 +0200
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China
>
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:48:53 -0700 Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>> But don't forget the British responsibility in that.  China was allowed to
>> walk into Tibet as a reward for their resistance to the Japanese.
>
> I understood that their reasons were mostly to keep out the Russians without
> incurring the cost of colonizing Tibet themselves.
>
> Andre Engels
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wiki database system

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Would it be possible to create the GEMET glossary database using this
>> tool ? How hard would it then be to create a XML import for the GEMET
>> data ??
>
>
> Well, it can basically recreate everything that fits into an SQL dump
> and has a unique key. Table "Xyz" would become [[Data:Xyz]], and each
> data row becomes a first revision of a primary key.
>
> What I can't reproduce, at least at the moment, is SQL queries. But I
> doubt anyone would volunteer to write an SQL frontend for this;-) But
> then, for just storage/retival, it won't be necessary anyway.
>
> I just lookes at the XML data of GEMET. There's a file for every
> language, so do you want
> 1) make tables [[Data:GEMET_DE]], [[Data:GEMET_EN]] etc., or
> 2) make a single table [[Data:GEMET]] with different fields for each
> language?
>
> Both is possible, alas, I have not yet written the retrival part...
>
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
The easiest thing is to create the tables as defined in the SQL
definitions you will find in META. This will create the stuff as is at
GEMET.
This will allow for changes to be made to the data (like adding "hypoxia".

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia in China

body:
yuanml wrote:
> Do you know China have ten million broadband Internet users,

What we do know is that their access to www.wikipedia.org is depending
on the day-to-day will of the government and/or bureaucracy.  This is
not the way we intended the Internet to work.  This blocking is
similar to a technical error and we should look for ways to repair it.

There used to be a similar problem in the Soviet Union, but it was
"repaired" 15 years ago.  First, East Europeans joined BBSes and
electronic mailing lists, then the Berlin Wall came down, then the
Soviet Union collapsed. Today, all former Soviet republics (perhaps
with the exception of Belarus?) have unregulated access to the
Internet. There was no "bias" or bad will in achieving this.

Internet connectivity is even more of a problem in Cuba than in the
People's Republic of China.  Are there any resident Cuban Wikipedia
contributors at all?  Not to speak about North Korea.

Look see, I don't have to go into political ideology here.  All I need
to promote is everybody's right and freedom to access the Internet.
This is not the opium war of the 19th century.  You might get addicted
to the Internet, but it is not brought to you in order to enslave you.
(Unless Wikipedia is considered to be slave labour...?)

Lars Aronsson, lars at aronsson.se
--
  Aronsson Datateknik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia in China

body:
This is misleading and a potential source of embarassment to them. We will
jump all over them if they come on and try to rewrite articles, "POV, blah
blah blah", "Wikipedia is not an appropriate place for political advocacy"
and so on.

What we want to communicate is the assurance that their viewpoints will be
appropriately included and refered to. Of course, there has to be a
published viewpoint in order to refer to it.

Social and political information developed by the government of China is
often considered confidential and not generally available, people who have
made it available have been criminally charged for disclosure of state
secrets.

Fred

> From: Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:25:40 +0200
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia in China
>
> This means that we're JUST AS OPEN to input from ordinary PRC citizens
> (including PRC government officials) as we're open to input from
> others.
> This means that if the PRC government isn't happy with our coverage
> then they have every opportunity do something about it.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Genericized trademarks

body:
Jens Ropers wrote:

> I agree with what you said below, yet I will continue to call ALL
> kinds of napalm-type weapon "napalm", because the word very deservedly
> carries a horrible connotation and the newer weapons' slightly altered
> formula makes them no less despicable, especially in cases where the
> they're actually worse (like having "added oxidisers").
>
> Let's not forget that the article rightly pointed out that several
> official documents from the U.S. military itself referred to the newer
> napalm-alike weapons as "napalm".
> "If that's what you call it yourself you can't scream murder over
> other folks calling it that."

Actually, it wouldn't be the US military claiming the trademark. If the
trademark owner does misuse the name (i.e. DaimlerChrysler referring to
a Land Rover as a Jeep), then that's pretty much the end of the game as
far as the trademark. But in this case the supposed owner is Dow
Chemical, not the US military, though the (lack of) evidence
increasingly suggests this is not actually a trademark.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to criticize your use of the word, just
highlighting the fact that people are using it with different levels of
precision. Presumably our article on napalm could stand to have a
section dealing with the composition of napalm and discuss the varying
definitions being applied.

> That link has expired.
> Can you give us a description of what you did to get to the page or
> point us to a screenshot or password protected copy of the content
> somewhere?
>
> On 25 Sep 2004, at 07:38, Stirling Newberry wrote:
>
>> http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?
>> f=toc&state=vg813n.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural
>> =yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PAR
>> A2=Napalm&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_
>> search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query
>
The data indicates that it's a search through the US Patent and
Trademark Office, which is something I already had done in my initial
research. Napalm, at least in the sense we are discussing, does not
appear in the search. That's a fairly strong indication that napalm is
not a trademark. In the absence of any other evidence, I would have to
conclude, as Stirling does, that napalm as a trademark is an urban legend.

>> And genericide isn't a crime, the accepted definition removes
>> trademark  status when a word enters common use. Companies discourage
>> use of  trademarked words as regular words, not because it is against
>> the law,  but because it is not against the law.
>
Actually, it can be against the law if they choose to pursue the issue.
Trademark owners have been known to seek injunctions against other
parties to prevent them from misusing their trademark as a generic term.
This is not a criminal issue, however, and genericide is barely a word,
let alone a crime.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Andre Engels wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:48:53 -0700 Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>> But don't forget the British responsibility in that.  China was
>> allowed to walk into Tibet as a reward for their resistance to the
>> Japanese.
>
>
> I understood that their reasons were mostly to keep out the Russians
> without incurring the cost of colonizing Tibet themselves.

That too.

Britain and Russia have always had rocky relations, and that goes back
to long before the communist regime took over in 1917.  The British had
ships in the Persian Gulf in the early 1600s out of concern for Russia;
it had Russia in mind during the Afghan wars.  The Crimean War was a
direct confrontation with Russia.  The British have always been
concerned about the Russians having southern sea access.  I would need
to dig deeper to understand why, but perhaps it felt a threat to its
naval dominance.  In the course of these geo-political wranglings
backward local tribes like the Tibetans and the Kurds could easily be
sacrificed to Britain's greater good.

Ec


from_name: Craig Franklin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
I don't know about you guys, but I think it's intolerable that the
dictatorial Chinese government shuold be able to say what sort of articles
we have on Wikipedia.  I, personally, would rather the resource be banned
within the PRC, than comply with their demands for self-censorship.

Plus, if we do soften our approach on there, and adopt a more
pro-"communist" attitude, I think we do a disservice to the Chinese-speaking
community.  The very nature of the repressive Chinese government means that
they won't be satisfied with NPOV as it stands - they'll want a POV that
makes them look good, just like in Chinese newspapers, television, and
radio.  Such a tone is incompatible with the foundations that Wikipedia
stands for.

Regards,
- Craig Franklin

-------------------
Craig Franklin
PO Box 764
Ashgrove, Q, 4060
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
and Culture.


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Brion-

> As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's
> remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you
> on this?

My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more
time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd like
to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the
basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a
<selection> to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}}, {{PD}}
etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

>This is thinking regarding [[The Great Game]], an existing article. However
>it does not contain any information regard Tibet as yet.
>
>
Thanks for pointing this out.  My last comments were made before I read
this and the cited article.  It certainly fits into the general scheme
of things. Put simply, the Afghans and others don't want foreigners
running their affairs, and they'll fight off both sides if they have
to.  That certain invading foreigners might be called communists is of
no consequence.  A foreigner is a foreigner.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia in China

body:
Jens Ropers wrote:

> We simply communicate to the relevant PRC authorities (through
> whatever appropriate channels) in detail what we really are: A wiki.
> We simply expressly explain how things work at the Wikipedia and how
> our "truth" is mainly formed by two molds: the NPOV and majority rule.

Truth by majority rule.  Ouch!

Majority rule is not always compatible with NPOV.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
I wasn't concerned specifically about napalm.  It's just one evil weapon
among others.  Fahrenheit 9/11 is about more than just napalm.
Ec

Jens Ropers wrote:

> Huh?
> There's no mention of napalm in there at all AFAICT?
> I'm not saying it's a bad document, it's just not at all about the
> napalm issue.
>
> -- ropers
>
> On 25 Sep 2004, at 08:40, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>> Jens Ropers wrote:
>>
>>> No, I don't want you to apologize for publicly insulting me. I want
>>> you  to do something else instead:
>>> Watch a film that actually contains footage of a U.S. soldier
>>> mentioning napalm use in Iraq and shows actual napalm inflicted
>>> wounds.  Watch Fahrenheit 9/11 and I'll be happy to call it quits
>>> between us.
>>
>> Or if you want something with less showmanship than what Moore tends
>> to exhibit try http://csis.org/features/040922_IraqiMinisterVisit.pdf
>> for an analysis of the current situation in Iraq.
>>
>> Ec
>


body:
Scr?obh Ray Saintonge,

> This is speculative polemic.

> Ec

Yup, and we've got all those shining examples of free, independent media in
the PRC so that we may witness their enlightened, liberal approach to
criticism.  Oh wait, no we don't.

If the Chinese government isn't going to let the Chinese media give a
balanced, NPOV opinion on such things as Falun Gong or Tibet, what makes you
think that they're going to tolerate Wikipedia, especially Chinese-language
Wikipedia, doing the same.  Not unless we agree to toe their party line -
which, I would sincerely hope, we're not actually willing to do.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that Wikimedia has remained unblocked in China
for as long as it has been.

Regards,
- Craig Franklin

-------------------
Craig Franklin
PO Box 764
Ashgrove, Q, 4060
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
and Culture.


from_name: yuanml

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia in China

body:
To Fred Bauder:
> There have been instances where Chinese troops have been undisciplined.
> All it proves is that people who have been desperately poor
> all their lives were tempted by wristwatches and ballpoint pens.

Do you know what you said is things about 20 years ago when I?m only a child?
Do you know China have the most cell-phone users in the world now?
Do you know China have ten million broadband Internet users,
just after USA, Japan and Korea, and will surpass Korea soon?
Yes, we are a developing country, but we are developing fast.

I have to say that the mailing list now is full of bias on China.

About Tibet problem, I provide some history issue
to reflect the common opinion in China.
Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama must be approved their identity
by the central government since Qing dynasty hundreds years ago.
Just in 1910s when China was very weak,
there was a movment to divided Tibet from China.
Great British took some part in the issue,
And we dislike the colonialism role of Great British.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia in China

body:
To Fred Bauder:
> There have been instances where Chinese troops have been undisciplined.
> All it proves is that people who have been desperately poor
> all their lives were tempted by wristwatches and ballpoint pens.

Do you know what you said is things about 20 years ago when I'm only a child?
Do you know China have the most cell-phone users in the world now?
Do you know China have ten million broadband Internet users,
just after USA, Japan and Korea, and will surpass Korea soon?
Yes, we are a developing country, but we are developing fast.

I have to say that the mailing list now is full of bias on China.

About Tibet problem, I provide some history issue
to reflect the common opinion in China.
Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama must be approved their identity
by the central government since Qing dynasty hundreds years ago.
Just in 1910s when China was very weak,
there was a movment to divided Tibet from China.
Great British took some part in the issue,
And we dislike the colonialism role of Great British.


from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia in China

body:
On Sep 25, 2004, at 1:46 PM, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>> We simply communicate to the relevant PRC authorities (through
>> whatever appropriate channels) in detail what we really are: A wiki.
>> We simply expressly explain how things work at the Wikipedia and how
>> our "truth" is mainly formed by two molds: the NPOV and majority
>> rule.
>
> Truth by majority rule.  Ouch!
>
> Majority rule is not always compatible with NPOV.
>
> Ec
>
>

I'm going to offer different advice, based on some experience in
politics on both sides of the pacific. In China, there is a rule of
people, not a rule of laws. The best way to get anything accomplished
is to make contacts with people in China who make decisions. One of the
sensitive projects for China is to develop sources of knowledge which
are not encumbered by payments of copyright or intellectual property -
since they need the money to by equipment and oil. Wikimedia is an
answer, as Linux is an answer, to this problem that they face.

Opening such a channel would take time, and effort, but it will, in the
long run, work better than trying to go through the front door. The
other component of this is to continue to recruit high quality editors
to work on the Chinese wikipedia, so that it becomes more and more
valuable as it is. I suspect, at some point, the Chinese government
will fork from it, and censor it, as they censor messages to bulletin
boards. But that creates its own process - one well understood to
people who have to work through it - of finding ways of saying the same
thing, without triggering the censor's ire. This is not so much
different than working on wiki articles - finding a way to say a
particular POV, without upsetting holders of other POVs.

This is not the kind of open and direct process that many westerners on
this list will like or be used to, but it is a workable process, and
does manage to both make the vast majority of content available,
continue the growth of that content, and reach a working understanding.

But above all, it is important to find who is making these decisions
and contact them, if they find wikipedia useful, then it will be given
the benefit of the doubt. If they find it a threat or a problem, it
will be hindered by every means within that person's power. We aren't
dealing with a faceless bureaucracy, but with particular people who
wikipedia can be seen either as a problem that their superiors press
them on, or as a tool to advance their position and the interests of
their nation.


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:48:53 -0700 Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
wrote:

>But don't forget the British responsibility in that.  China was allowed to
>walk into Tibet as a reward for their resistance to the Japanese.

I understood that their reasons were mostly to keep out the Russians without
incurring the cost of colonizing Tibet themselves.

Andre Engels


subject: [Wikitech-l] Sound files

body:
On Sep 25, 2004, at 2:45 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> * How can I make the .ogg file execute immediately (without a detail
> screen) ?

[[media:foobar.ogg]]

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiCommons wishes

body:
 From WikiCommons the following seem currently to be the most wanted
additions to Wikimedia Software:

1. The possibility to use images on commons directly on Wikipedia
2. Getting a thumbnail of an image in a category (and for non-images some
descriptive text) instead of just the page title on a category page.

Unfortunately, it does not seem like there are any active developers on
WikiCommons currently, so I am throwing this into the larger group in the
hope someone will be interested in programming them.

Andre Engels


from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia in China

body:
On 25 Sep 2004, at 05:35, Jiong Sheng wrote:

> <snip>
>
> or broadcast to worldwide media,
> so that the top officials notice us, and might give explicit
> instructions not to block Wikipedia. I believe that is what happens to
> google few years ago: the top rank governors of the country noticed
> the event, and an order was given. However this could be a dangerous
> move too: if we really angers someone on top then we will forever be
> blocked.
>
> formulax

IF we're really blocked and IF decide to do anything, then I propose we
do this:

We simply communicate to the relevant PRC authorities (through whatever
appropriate channels) in detail what we really are: A wiki.
We simply expressly explain how things work at the Wikipedia and how
our "truth" is mainly formed by two molds: the NPOV and majority rule.

This means that we're JUST AS OPEN to input from ordinary PRC citizens
(including PRC government officials) as we're open to input from
others.
This means that if the PRC government isn't happy with our coverage
then they have every opportunity do something about it.

This might in the extreme lead to a concerted PRC government-endorsed
effort to participate and thus shift the balance, but as long as our
processes are fully upheld and respected, that participation should
remain constructive -- and I have full faith in the Wikipedia's
resilience to ensure that such participation will in the long run be
nothing but beneficial.

Let's convince them to join us, not ban us.
Because they too can be on an equal footing within the Wikipedia -- no
more, no less.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


body:
I agree with what you said below, yet I will continue to call ALL kinds
of napalm-type weapon "napalm", because the word very deservedly
carries a horrible connotation and the newer weapons' slightly altered
formula makes them no less despicable, especially in cases where the
they're actually worse (like having "added oxidisers").

Let's not forget that the article rightly pointed out that several
official documents from the U.S. military itself referred to the newer
napalm-alike weapons as "napalm".
"If that's what you call it yourself you can't scream murder over other
folks calling it that."

This reminds me of the fact that a vast variety of (much more
different) chemical substances are all referred to as the drug
"ecstasy". The point is that in the case of someone's legitimate and
ethical business I can actually sympathize with companies' concerns
over (nevertheless widespread) genericalization of their trademark. In
case of the makers and users of napalm or ecstasy I have no such
sympathy: Their case to me is analogous to a pedophile serial killer
trying to sue a police detective for causing him mental anguish.

-- ropers

On 25 Sep 2004, at 07:28, Michael Snow wrote:

> Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>> If it acts like napalm but just happens to contain ''slightly''
>> different chemicals, ''plus added oxidisers'', then of course it's
>> ''totally irresponsible'' to call the substance napalm.
>> Jayzuz, that would be like--like calling a land rover a jeep! Or
>> calling a whirlpool a jacuzzi!! Or--gasp--calling photocopying
>> xeroxing!!! How TOTALLY inaccurate!!!!
>> </irony>
>
> Actually, from the perspective of the owners of those respective
> trademarks (Jeep, Jacuzzi, and Xerox) it would be totally inaccurate
> and irresponsible. You may not personally care about such things, but
> they would go to a great deal of effort to discourage people from
> using those terms incorrectly.
>
> Wittingly or not, the elements of your analogy have a significant
> point in common, which is that these are all trademarks in danger of
> genericide (fortunately, a much less violent demise than those you
> have been arguing about). Interestingly enough, I discovered that our
> article on napalm states that it too is a trademark, belonging in this
> case to Dow Chemical. However, my initial research was unable to
> verify this claim. Does anybody have a source that could back this up?
> I rather wonder whether napalm as a trademark might already have gone
> generic, given how many people use it to mean any gasoline-based
> military incendiary device, as shown by this discussion.
>
> Instead of flaming each other from divergent points of view, perhaps
> we could redirect our focus to getting facts correct in our articles.
>
> --Michael Snow


body:
That link has expired.
Can you give us a description of what you did to get to the page or
point us to a screenshot or password protected copy of the content
somewhere?

On 25 Sep 2004, at 07:38, Stirling Newberry wrote:

> http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?
> f=toc&state=vg813n.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural
> =yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PAR
> A2=Napalm&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_
> search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Huh?
There's no mention of napalm in there at all AFAICT?
I'm not saying it's a bad document, it's just not at all about the
napalm issue.

-- ropers

On 25 Sep 2004, at 08:40, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>> No, I don't want you to apologize for publicly insulting me. I want
>> you  to do something else instead:
>> Watch a film that actually contains footage of a U.S. soldier
>> mentioning napalm use in Iraq and shows actual napalm inflicted
>> wounds.  Watch Fahrenheit 9/11 and I'll be happy to call it quits
>> between us.
>
> Or if you want something with less showmanship than what Moore tends
> to exhibit try http://csis.org/features/040922_IraqiMinisterVisit.pdf
> for an analysis of the current situation in Iraq.
>
> Ec


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople

body:
Well, here are my answers re wikipeople.

1 Should this project exist?
If there are people who want it, I don't see why not.

2 Should the current Sep11 wiki articles be moved here?
This is a question which should be determined by the people who use the
wiki.

3 Should the Sep11 wiki be removed and redirected to Wikipeople?
That should be up to the people who use the sep11 wiki.

4 Should the creation of this project wait until a Wikidata structure
exists?
I've never heard of Wikidata, so no.

5 Should Wikidata be a project that can hold both Wikipeople and
Wikispecies?
Definitely not.  Wikispecies and Wikipeople are completely different
projects created for completely different reasons.  Wikispecies is supposed
to be a language neutral subset of Wikipedia.  Wikipeople is largely
supposed to be for information not in Wikipedia.

6 Should this be a project in its own right with no links to Sep11 wiki or
Wikispecies?
Certainly.

7 Which domain should be used?
If we own wikipeople.org, that would be the best.

Anthony


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia in China

body:
On 25 Sep 2004, at 17:18, Fred Bauder wrote:

> This is misleading and a potential source of embarassment to them. We
> will
> jump all over them if they come on and try to rewrite articles, "POV,
> blah
> blah blah", "Wikipedia is not an appropriate place for political
> advocacy"
> and so on.

Who says that they won't follow best NPOV practices?
Who says their contributions will be sheer advocacy?
I'm talking about inviting more contributors from the other side of the
globe to participate in the process in the best possible spirit.
If that will balance some of our biased views and misconceptions then
more power to them.
Yes, there could very likely be an initial zealous rush -- but isn't
the same true with most other newcomers to our project?
I don't see the majority of new and enthusiastic Wikipedians becoming
trolls.
I have full faith that Chinese individuals are no less capable of
learning constructive collaboration than U.S. individuals.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:07:05 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%93%D7%92%D7%9C_%D7%A7%D7%96%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%
> >98%D7%9F
> >
> >I hope it is not controversial in any way, it looks like a peaceful image.
> >The text is minimal, but most articles started that way.
> >
> That's great news!  A Hebrew language article about the flag of
> Kazakhstan!  I'm glad that it wasn't an English language article.
> Perhaps one of our Hebrew editors could be prevailed upon to expand on
> the stub with things like information about the background of the flag's
> origin etc.  before you make the announcement that a scientific survey
> of our database has determined that "Somebody's name" has contributed
> this as the official 1 millionth article. :-)

Well, perhaps we can find someone who speaks both Hebrew and German,
since http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagge_Kasachstans appears to have
plenty to say! I only worry that there's too much - it was added
almost in one go, which *sometimes* means its a copyright violation...

Still, I think we should notify anyone who cares to listen (on
wikipedia-l, perhaps; and meta) that this is the Official Millionth
Article! :D

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
With reference to these emails:

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-September/
025479.html
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-September/
025480.html
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-September/
025483.html

I believe there is no need for embarrassment over the inaccuracy -- or
for hiding these unavoidable shortcomings:
Let's just go out and clearly admit that it's inaccurate for
such-and-such reasons, but this is or best bet and thus the ordained
"winner".
That doesn't stop us from making a big fuss about it, and yes, I think
it would be nice to give a merchandize reward to and have a photo-op
with the contributor in question -- and then issue a brief(!) follow-up
press release (where we also remain honest about the inherent
limitations).

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikisource

body:
Le Saturday 25 September 2004 01:38, Ray Saintonge a ?crit :
> Yann Forget wrote:
> >See http://r2d2.homeunix.org/mahadev_desai/day-to-day/ (600 to 850 KB of
> > plain English text each)
> >cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahadev_Desai
> >
> >I created the base but there is a lot of work, especially because each
> > volume has an index, which would be nice to have it working.
> >cf. http://wikisource.org/wiki/Day_to_Day_with_Gandhi
>
> This raises an interesting issue.  How to handle indexes.  Typically
> these make references to specific page numbers in paper books, but we
> usually ignore the original pagination when we upload a book.  Maybe an
> index could have the page numbers stripped out and link to some kind of
> search function.  As Spock would say, "Fascinating!"

There are other features which are much needed for Wikisource.
One is footnote. There are also plenty of foonotes in this book, and I don't
know what to do with them.

> Ec

Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Pawe³ 'Ausir' Dembowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikisource

body:
YF> There are other features which are much needed for Wikisource.
YF> One is footnote. There are also plenty of foonotes in this book, and I don't
YF> know what to do with them.
YF> Yann

[[#something]] wikilinks?

--
Ausir
mailto:fallout at lexx.eu.org
http://fallout.scifi.pl
ICQ 41090834 GG 2730728


subject: [Wikitech-l] PHPTAL on PHP 5

body:
I've checked in some tweaks to support the PHPTAL 1.0.0 development
snapshot running on PHP 5.0. It's not 100% working right, but pages
display which is nice.

Requires that you've:
* Downloaded PHP 1.0.0dev2 snapshot and installed it with pear
* Applied two patches to it, which I've posted to the phptal-users list
* Turn on $wgUsePHPTal manually in LocalSettings.php
* Make sure the include_path includes your PEAR directory.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] PHPTAL on PHP 5

body:
One other nasty: i18n:attributes doesn't seem to be reimplemented yet.
You need to add a stub function or two to get it to run, and the search
box and logo will be missing. I'll see about getting that working once
I figure out their wacky Subversion repository...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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