body:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, Evan Prodromou wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> >>>>> "GB" == Geoff Burling <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com> writes:
>
>     GB> I believe that having a file with spaces in its name can cause
>     GB> problems for UNIX-like environments -- which is what I believe
>     GB> the Wikipedia servers run on. Instead of spaces, one should
>     GB> use periods ".", dashes "-" or underbars "_".
>
>     GB> (One can work around this aspect of UNIX-like oeprating
>     GB> systems by using quote marks -- but why make things more
>     GB> complex?)
>
> So, it's not Unix-likes but the Web that doesn't allow spaces. You're
> not supposed to put spaces in an URL. (Some browsers will retrieve an
> URL with spaces in it, but you're still not _supposed_ to.)
>
No, as Brion & Timwi noted, the problem really doesn't lie with the
Web, but with Unix-like OS's (with the possible exception of OS X); UNIX
interprets a raw space as a separator, so that if you try to manipulate
a file with a space in it (say, "An example file.txt"), the OS will
split the file name on the spaces & assume you are trying to manipulate
several files (in the case of the example, the files would be "An",
"example", & "file.txt").

There are ways around this -- quoting, using find with the -inum switch,
etc. -- that one picks up fairly early in learning Unix. Unfortunately,
most scripts are written on the fly, & don't always test for possible
errors like this; avoiding spaces in file names is just a good habit
to adopt. (I am glad to learn Squid does address this issue.)

Geoff


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Document your features, please

body:
On Mar 15, 2004, at 09:36, Geoff Burling wrote:
> No, as Brion & Timwi noted, the problem really doesn't lie with the
> Web, but with Unix-like OS's (with the possible exception of OS X);
> UNIX
> interprets a raw space as a separator,

No. As I noted, UNIX has no problem with spaces at all.

The HTTP protocol explicitly excludes a raw space character from URLs.
Period.

> so that if you try to manipulate
> a file with a space in it (say, "An example file.txt"), the OS will
> split the file name on the spaces & assume you are trying to manipulate
> several files (in the case of the example, the files would be "An",
> "example", & "file.txt").

That is incorrect. A filename on UNIX may contain spaces with no
problem.

> There are ways around this -- quoting, using find with the -inum
> switch,
> etc. -- that one picks up fairly early in learning Unix. Unfortunately,
> most scripts are written on the fly, & don't always test for possible
> errors like this; avoiding spaces in file names is just a good habit
> to adopt. (I am glad to learn Squid does address this issue.)

These are not issues with the OS, but with command-line shells. From an
actual program you can sling spaces around all you please.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Mar 15, 2004, at 09:36, Geoff Burling wrote:
>  (I am glad to learn Squid does address this issue.)

Squid does the wrong thing, actually; it *removes* the spaces rather
than *replacing* them with escaped versions. Ask for "Foo bar" and you
get "Foobar" instead of "Foo%20bar".

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Prefixing MySQL table names

body:
On Mar 15, 2004, at 08:34, The Centerfielder wrote:
> Has there been any discussion of prefixing the MySQL table names
> to avoid table name collision for those who only have access to
> one MySQL database and use other MySQL applications?
>
> For example, Moveable Type uses "mt_", pMachine uses "pm_", and
> they also allow one to choose an installation-defined prefix.

Thought about it, haven't done it. A selectable prefix would require
that we change how a lot of maintenance scripts run, since they
generally have a fixed, manually runnable SQL script. That would no
longer be possible.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Mar 15, 2004, at 10:04, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> And as we're at table names, could somebody rename user to users,
> so that it doesn't clash with Postgresql's keyword ?

If it's prefixed, wouldn't it not clash with the keyword?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

body:
I think when you uploaded the large version of your picture, the picture you
saw on WP was still the old version (cause of your browser cache system) but
with the new file size. To visualize an updated picture, you need to refresh
cache by pressing Ctrl + F5 (on Mozilla, Firefox, IE, etc.).

Aoineko

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hynek Hanke" <hanke at volny.cz>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:29 PM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] A problem with uploading images

>
> Hello all & happy Pi day,
>
> I had recently some problems with uploading images to Wikipedia.
> I think the interface doesn't work very well and someone of the
> programmers should look at it.
>
> I uploaded a small image of a braille calendar
> (braille_calendar_cs.jpg) and everything was ok. But then I noticed it
> would be much better to upload a big image and use the new image
> syntax to produce a thumbdail for the [[braille]] article.
>
> So I tried to update this picture with a larger one with the same
> name by uploading the new version. But something went wrong, because
> now the picture (braille_calendar_cs.jpg) has a horrible quality.
> This is not caused by strict compression, it was ok on my local system.
>
> Because I thaught that the problem is only that the first image was
> of a different size, I tried to upload it under a different name.
> I choosed braille_calendar_cs-2.jpg, but it didn't work. No image
> is displayed on the corresponding image page. I tried to do it again
> with no result. Yet the path on my local system is correct and the
> image is also correct. No problems under gqview, gimp, gnome eyes.
>
> Then I finally managed to upload the file under the name
> braille_calendar_cs_2.jpg and it's finally correct. But I got the
> impression that the uploading subsystem is quite buggy or not well
> finished.
>
> It would be great if some of the programmers could devote some of
> its time to carefully test it and fix some of the problems.
>
> Also, could someone please point out to me, how do I delete these
> "garbage" pictures? Please don't delete them now, because they might
> serve as a reference for the bug-hunters, but if something like this
> happens to me in the future, I'd like to be able to clean after myself.
> (Because there is a risk that someone finds the bad quality picture,
> not knowing about the better variants, and uses it somewhere -- which
> is highly suboptimal.)
>
> Thank you & thanks everyone for Wikipedia!
> Hynek Hanke
> http://www.freebsoft.org
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Nick Pisarro

subject: [Wikitech-l] <red>tags</red>;	and$wgUseDatabaseMessages question

references:
<200403131038.32045.smolensk@eunet.yu> <c2v8h4$pig$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<	> <shk71ozqe2.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de> <	>
	<fc.00030d6f01220ee73b9aca009683adf9.1220f1b@aperture.com>
	<1fhsm3zp5udea$.bq5ck4ektvpt.dlg@40tude.net>

body:
Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org> writes:
>Hello,
>
>You must have debugged softwares using punch card as entry :
>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_card
>
>Where they easier to read than XML ? :p

Well sure! After you printed them off using an IBM model 407 Accounting
Machine of course. You could also run them through a printing key punch
which would print the meaning of the holes along the top of the cards.

A fellow associate of mine would actually write programs sitting at a
keypunch. A cool thing you could do, if you serialized everything using
columns 72-80, was to put your changes at the end of a deck and run them
through a card sorter to insert them. This worked poorly for deletions,
however. I once mailed a program update to a friend by putting a stamp and
address on a punch card and mailing it off.

Cards were a luxury compared to paper tape. At least you could replace
cards on a one by one basis.

For unreadability, there was this language called RPG--Report Program
Generator--that turned your IBM 1401 or System 360/Model 30 into an
accounting machine. Each column of a card had different meanings. But RPG
programs were luxuries compared to wiring a plugboard.

Then there was APL--A Programming Language--probably the champion for
creating amazingly compact but totally unreadable and unmaintainable
programs [the RegEx of its day], but mathematicians used to love it.

Debugging in those days often involved wading through pages and pages of
core dump. We sold software to the C.I.A. They would send us core dumps
with the top secret data cut out with a pair of scissors. That means some
guy had to look through the dump figuring out which data was confidential.
>
>
>... Just having a little fun.
>
>I do agree XML isn't for human read, but it's great to export database
>datas or just formatting them so they can be used by another software that
>will display them to human.  It just another layer between 2 computer
>softwares.

Absolutely. XML certainly has its place.
>
>
>cheers,

Sorry for the off topic discussion.

Nick


list: wikien-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Edit war policy meaningless

body:
RickK, there have been more than 20 people who have been tring to put a
lot of work, setting these two arbitration and mediation things in the
past two months.
Spending two months of hard and not rewarding work, only for the purpose
to improve the relationships between editors in this project. We are not
in any way perfect, but we really try our best.
We love feedback, but we prefer positive feedback. If you feel like
offering criticism, please do it, but list facts, list problems with
links, and give us some detailed ideas for improvement. Please.

Rick a ?crit:
> Arbitration, mediation, whatever.  It's all nonsense since it means
> absolutely nothing.  Whatever it is that is supposedly happening is not
> being done.
>
> RickK


from_name: Evan Prodromou

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: <red>tags</red>; and $wgUseDatabaseMessages
	question

body:
>>>>> "NP" == Nick Pisarro <nickp at aperture.com> writes:

    NP> The whole idea of the wiki markup is to provide an easy markup
    NP> that is not too intimidating to non-technical people. Even the
    NP> wiki markup is very intimidating to technophobes who are
    NP> otherwise highly intelligent people.  So a lot of thought
    NP> should go into any additions to the wiki markup before being
    NP> implemented.

+1

I also think getting a WYSIWYG editor going is more important:

       http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG_editor

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Re: <red>tags</red>;
	and $wgUseDatabaseMessages	question

references:
<200403131038.32045.smolensk@eunet.yu> <c2v8h4$pig$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<shk71ozqe2.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<fc.00030d6f01220ee73b9aca009683adf9.1220f1b@aperture.com>

body:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:44:39 -0500, Nick Pisarro wrote:
> Opinion: XML is one of the worst "languages" to code in and read that I
> have personally encountered in my 42 years of writing software. Don't
> confuse regularity with ease of use. An extreme example is XSLT which uses
> XML format. Descriptions written in it are almost totally undecipherable
> except by deep analysis.
>
> Nick Pisarro

Hello,

You must have debugged softwares using punch card as entry :
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_card

Where they easier to read than XML ? :p

... Just having a little fun.

I do agree XML isn't for human read, but it's great to export database
datas or just formatting them so they can be used by another software that
will display them to human.  It just another layer between 2 computer
softwares.

cheers,

--
Ashar Voultoiz
http://fr.wikipedia.org/Utilisateur:Hashar
do not send mail to listme at listme.dsbl.org


from_name: Weeger Nicolas

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Force user to choose a licence when uploading data

body:
>>What do you think about force user to choose a licence
>>(in a combo box) when
>>uploading a media (pictures, sound, etc.) to Wikipedia.

I second this proposal. Too many pictures just don't have _any_ information.

Nicolas / Ryo


body:
What do you think about force user to choose a licence (in a combo box) when
uploading a media (pictures, sound, etc.) to Wikipedia. I see 2 benefits:

* Force user to care about licence,

* Automatically add {{msg:<NameOfLicence>}} to the bottom of media
description page.

Aoineko

Example:

----------------------

| Choose a licence |v|

----------------------

| GFDL             |

| Public Domain    |

| Fair Use         |

| ...              |

--------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] Force user to choose a licence when uploading data


subject: [Wikitech-l] Error at en.wikipedia.org

body:
Hi Nick.

The database server, suda, ran out of disk space for a short while
today. Probably all queries doing any updates would have failed during
that time. The problem was solved by moving away and compressing some
old binary logs.

// E23

Nick Pisarro nickp-at-aperture.com |wikipedia| wrote:

>Login successful
>
>>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
>
> A database query syntax error has occurred. This could be because of an
>illegal search query (see [
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Searching ]Searching Wikipedia), or
>it may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query
>was:
>
> UPDATE user SET user_name= 'Nick Pisarro, Jr.', user_password=
>'b363d2206727ebb2b2894e1b40ee5085', user_newpassword= '', user_email=
>'nickp at aperture.com', user_options= 'quickbar=2 underline=1 hover=1
>cols=80 rows=25 searchlimit=20 contextlines=5 contextchars=50 skin=0
>math=1 rcdays=7 rclimit=50 highlightbroken=1 stubthreshold=0
>previewontop=1 editsection=0 editsectiononrightclick=0 showtoc=1
>showtoolbar=1 date=1 searchNs-1=0 searchNs0=1 searchNs1=0 searchNs2=0
>searchNs3=0 searchNs4=1 searchNs5=0 searchNs6=0 searchNs7=0
>rememberpassword=0 nickname=NickP timecorrection=-5:00 searchNs8=0
>searchNs9=0 disablemail=0 justify=1 hideminor=0 usenewrc=1
>numberheadings=0 editondblclick=0 editwidth=0 watchdefault=0
>minordefault=0 nocache=0', user_rights= '', user_touched= '20040315115339'
>WHERE user_id=35903
>
>from within function "User::saveSettings". MySQL returned error "3: Error
>writing file './suda-bin.069' (Errcode: 28)".
>
>-------------------------------
>
>MediaWiki: 1.2.0rc3
> [ http://www.php.net/ ]PHP: 4.3.4
> [ http://www.mysql.com/ ]MySQL: 4.0.17-standard-log
>
>I only got this error once. When I logged in again, I didn't get any error.
>
>Nick Pisarro
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>


from_name: Rich Holton

body:
--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sadly, we are not a small little community anymore
> where informal means of running the shop could do
> just fine. We need clear rules and clear ways to
> enforce those rules.

I'm very much in agreement with Daniel here. One thing
in particular that I find frustrating and troubling
now is that even the policies that we do have are not
sometimes not clearly stated as policies. For example,
[[wikipedia:Policies and guidelines]] is the main
entry point into the Wikipedia policies. There you
will find that "No personal attacks", "No offensive
user names", and other items that seem to have the
force of policy are listed under "Specific guidelines
to consider", where you will also find "Ignore all
rules" and "state the obvious".

I believe that the time has come to firmly state
exactly what policies we have, and clearly separate
them from "suggestions". We still want to keep the
list of policies as short as we can, but no one is
served by the confusing mish-mash that exists now.

I suppose what is required first is for someone
(Jimbo?) or some group to define exactly how policies
are set and reviewed. (I've heard that 80% is
considered valid consensus for a policy, but where is
that stated? How is the polling to be conducted?)

I'm not sure how the Arbitration Committee is
proceeding where policies are vague, but it seems to
me that their efforts would be only aided by any
clarification of what our policies are.

-Rich Holton (user: Rholton)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Mon, Mar 15, 2004 at 08:34:07AM -0800, The Centerfielder wrote:
> Has there been any discussion of prefixing the MySQL table names
> to avoid table name collision for those who only have access to
> one MySQL database and use other MySQL applications?
>
> For example, Moveable Type uses "mt_", pMachine uses "pm_", and
> they also allow one to choose an installation-defined prefix.
>
> I'm new to the list, and did a quick search on the nntp gateway,
> and couldn't find this question asked, but it may have been
> previously discussed.

And as we're at table names, could somebody rename user to users,
so that it doesn't clash with Postgresql's keyword ?


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Force user to choose a licence when uploading data

body:
Imran Ghory wrote:

>>>>What do you think about force user to choose a licence
>>>>(in a combo box) when
>>>>uploading a media (pictures, sound, etc.) to Wikipedia.
>>>>
>>>>
>>I second this proposal. Too many pictures just don't have _any_ information.
>>
>>
>Ditto, along with a required "source" text field.
>
Requiring source information is far more important than giving users a
choice about what license to use. We should have done it a long time
ago. If we want any basis in international law to claim "fair use" on
images, the Berne Convention requires that we indicate the source and
the name of the author.

I don't know that it's such a good idea to give people a smorgasbord of
licenses to choose from, though. Trying to comply exactly with the terms
of the GFDL is enough work already. We'd be better off if we had a
uniform licensing policy for images, so that people don't have to keep
track of responsibilities that are different under each license. We
could just decide to tell everyone that all images you contribute must
be licensed under the GFDL, just like text.

--Michael Snow
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body:
On Mon, Mar 15, 2004 at 10:02:35AM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Mar 15, 2004, at 10:04, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> >And as we're at table names, could somebody rename user to users,
> >so that it doesn't clash with Postgresql's keyword ?
>
> If it's prefixed, wouldn't it not clash with the keyword?

mw_user would of course be fine.


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Document your features, please

body:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:56:50 -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Mar 15, 2004, at 09:36, Geoff Burling wrote:
>>  (I am glad to learn Squid does address this issue.)
>
> Squid does the wrong thing, actually; it *removes* the spaces rather
> than *replacing* them with escaped versions. Ask for "Foo bar" and you
> get "Foobar" instead of "Foo%20bar".

I think there's a compile option (or was it a patch?) available that
inserts an unscore instead, but that's just from memory.

--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: <red>tags</red>; and $wgUseDatabaseMessages	question

references:
<200403131038.32045.smolensk@eunet.yu>
	<c2v8h4$pig$1@sea.gmane.org> <shk71ozqe2.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<fc.00030d6f01220ee73b9aca009683adf9.1220f1b@aperture.com>

body:
"Nick Pisarro" <nickp at aperture.com> writes:

> XML really isn't meant to be edited and used by humans despite its
> ASCII syntax,

That's why I said "XML editor or browser plugin".  But I wouldn't mind
SGML with minimization features neither.  The WP syntas isn't that far
away from SGML.

> it is a program to program interface. HTML isn't much better. The
> built-in XML editors of browsers are terrible. All but XML mavens do
> not have other XML tools readily available.

They can continue to add text between simple <para>tags</para>.

> Opinion: XML is one of the worst "languages" to code in and read that I
> have personally encountered in my 42 years of writing software.

Only WP syntax will top XML...

> Don't confuse regularity with ease of use. An extreme example is XSLT
> which uses XML format.

Agreed.  I recommend to stick with DSSSL for transformation and
formatting.

> Descriptions written in it are almost totally undecipherable except by
> deep analysis.

Yes ;-(

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Camille Constans

subject: [Wikitech-l] fr try to go to UTF-8

body:
Brion, Tim or any other devel,

Tim set me a fr2 db on suda to test the fr wiki in utf-8 instead of ISO8859-1. And he set me a fr2.wikipedia.org

But I have some pbs, fr2 seem set in french but when you go on http://fr2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Specialpages it is set to english !
And the Wikip?dia french namespace is not seen, it is set to english : Wikipedia (without ?)

I think it is a software pb, could you have a look please ?

And if you see some bug in UTF-8 please ask :)

Shaihulud


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Creative Commons Licence

in_reply_to:
<200403131745.i2DHjpUm065573@mailserver2.hushmail.com>
	(perl@hush.ai's message of "Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:45:50 -0800")

body:
>>>>> "ph" ==   <perl at hush.ai> writes:

    ph> I would think that we would be able to use work originally
    ph> licensed under the cc license on wikipedia even if we
    ph> relicense it under the GFDL. There is nothing in the cc
    ph> license that says we can't.

(I am not a lawyer; this is not legal advice.)

Hurgh. Well, that depends on the CC license you're talking
about. There are 11 core licenses, and several additional ones.

Any Creative Commons license that has the ShareAlike license element
has this clause in the license:

   "You may distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or
   publicly digitally perform a Derivative Work only under the terms
   of this License, [...] You may not offer or impose any terms on the
   Derivative Works that alter or restrict the terms of this License
   or the recipients' exercise of the rights granted hereunder, [...]"

In other words, you're not allowed to add additional licenses, or
change the license. That's the essence of copyleft. You use _exactly_
the same license for derived works. Same thing for the GFDL, btw:

   "You may copy and distribute a Modified Version of the Document
   under the conditions of sections 2 and 3 above, provided that you
   release the Modified Version under precisely this License,"

Non-copyleft licenses don't have that kind of restriction. But most of
the CC licenses that aren't copyleft have other provisions
(NoDerivatives, NonCommercial) that make
them unsuitable for incorporating into GFDL material. Derivatives of
works licensed under the Attribution license (just requires
attribution) could probably be licensed under the GFDL.

The original creator can offer a work under any license or licenses
they want. Dual licenses would probably work.

    ph> I think some wikipedians even use photos that are licensed
    ph> under the cc.

This all depends on what the "Document" is in the GFDL (called the
"Work" in CC licenses). It's not stated on the copyrights page:

       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights

...or anywhere else that I know of what the Document is, but I think
we tend to treat them as individual images and individual articles,
_separately_. So it's OK to put images and articles together that have
different licenses. Taking elements of a Creative Commons
Attribution-ShareAlike-licensed image, say, and making a GFDL'd image,
would not be OK: it'd be making a Derivative Work, which has to be
under exactly the by-sa.

Needless to say, this is hairy stuff. Why not avoid it wherever
possible?

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


in_reply_to:
<002501c40a62$1bcf4de0$d100a8c0@arcsy.co.jp> (Guillaume
	Blanchard's message of "Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:49:56 +0900")

body:
>>>>> "GB" == Guillaume Blanchard <gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp> writes:

    GB> * Automatically add {{msg:<NameOfLicence>}} to the bottom of
    GB> media description page.

Actually, it'd make things a lot easier for everyone if some code for
the license was in a database field. Easier to separate out stuff with
incompatible licenses, for instance.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Force user to choose a licence when
 uploading data


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi,

Le Monday 15 March 2004 08:49, Guillaume Blanchard a ?crit :
> What do you think about force user to choose a licence (in a combo box)
> when uploading a media (pictures, sound, etc.) to Wikipedia. I see 2
> benefits:
>
> * Force user to care about licence,
>
> * Automatically add {{msg:<NameOfLicence>}} to the bottom of media
> description page.

Yes, this is a long overdue missing feature.

Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: A problem with uploading images

body:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:20:06 +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:

Ctrl + F5 (on IE, Opera).

Shift-reload (Mozilla, Firefox, etc)

--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Imran Ghory

body:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Weeger Nicolas wrote:

> >>What do you think about force user to choose a licence
> >>(in a combo box) when
> >>uploading a media (pictures, sound, etc.) to Wikipedia.
>
> I second this proposal. Too many pictures just don't have _any_ information.

Ditto, along with a required "source" text field.

Imran
--
http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran


subject: [Wikitech-l] [[Link (something)|]] parsing

body:
Hello,

I saw a feature request at sourceforge asking to stop expanding wikilinks
like [[link (something)|]] to [[link (something)|link]].

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=411195&aid=914166&group_id=34373

As stated in the feature request, I believe that it prevents non
experimented user to learn a great shortcut offered by the software, it
will also save a few bytes in the database, but mainly will render the
source text a bit easier to read ...

What are your opinions ? Should we stop expanding it ?

cheers,

--
Ashar Voultoiz
http://fr.wikipedia.org/Utilisateur:Hashar
do not send mail to listme at listme.dsbl.org


from_name: Joshua Holman

subject: [Wikipedia-l] KJV Bible on s.w.o?

body:
Hello everyone!

It looks like that someone has started to post the King James Bible to
s.w.o at:

http://sources.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Testament_(King_James_Version)

Before I get flamed, I don't have a posting the Bible to s.w.o. However
on the talk page of [[King James Version of the Bible]], I wrote that I
have received an email from Jim Black, a UK Online Bible reseller who
stated two things:

*The KJV crown copyright is a letters patent not a copyright;
*The patent is enforced;

Since Wikipedia has contributors from the UK, should we think twice
about posting the KJV to s.w.o?

Joshua Holman
AKA Hoshie
--
Joshua Holman - joshua at sillydog dot org
AIM: mozillaguy - Y!: hoshie331
John Kerry for President!
http://www.johnkerry.com


body:
On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 03:45  PM, Weeger Nicolas wrote:

>>> What do you think about force user to choose a licence
>>> (in a combo box) when
>>> uploading a media (pictures, sound, etc.) to Wikipedia.
>
> I second this proposal. Too many pictures just don't have _any_
> information.
>
> Nicolas / Ryo

Agreed.

Joshua Holman
AKA Hoshie
--
Joshua Holman - joshua at sillydog dot org
AIM: mozillaguy - Y!: hoshie331
John Kerry for President!
http://www.johnkerry.com


from_name: Andre Engels

body:
"Guillaume Blanchard" <gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp> schrieb:
> A license' flag for medias may be a very nice idea!
> And imho, the combo-box may be a god way to force people to choose one of
> the available licenses.

Looking at the French box, I miss a few options, though. First, CC-BY, or
even better "CC-BY or similar" for stuff that can be used freely when
attributed. Second, I would like to split PD in "PD - granted to PD" and
"PD - copyright expired". Finally, a choice "Other - specify on image page".
And indeed, the author field would also be useful.

Andre Engels


body:
I build a fake combo box on French upload page to show what I mean.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload

(Look under "description" text box)

When user chose, for example, CC-AS, the program may automatically add a
{{msg:CC-AS}} at the end of the image description page.

Aoineko

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yann Forget" <yann at forget-me.net>
To: <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Force user to choose a licence when uploading
data

> Hi,
>
> Le Monday 15 March 2004 08:49, Guillaume Blanchard a ?crit :
> > What do you think about force user to choose a licence (in a combo box)
> > when uploading a media (pictures, sound, etc.) to Wikipedia. I see 2
> > benefits:
> >
> > * Force user to care about licence,
> >
> > * Automatically add {{msg:<NameOfLicence>}} to the bottom of media
> > description page.
>
> Yes, this is a long overdue missing feature.
>
> Yann
>
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
> http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Bird

body:
I wrote on Friday, March 12, 2004 9:43 PM

> Just to let everyone know - I'm currently attempting to mediate with Bird.
>
> This is a non-standard mediation at this point - a discussion between the
> two of us to find a starting point for further mediation with those
> concerned.  I've no idea how effective this will be, but willing to give
it
> a go
>
> --sannse
>

My discussion with Bird has ended.  We did not come to any agreements.

--sannse


from_name: Gareth Owen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] KJV Bible on s.w.o?

body:
Joshua Holman <joshua at sillydog.org> writes:

> *The KJV crown copyright is a letters patent not a copyright;
> *The patent is enforced;

You could have read this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version !

> Since Wikipedia has contributors from the UK,
> should we think twice about posting the KJV to s.w.o?

No.
--
Gareth Owen
"It's not a human or civic right to edit wikipedia."
                                 -- kq cuts to the core of the banning debate


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

body:
A license' flag for medias may be a very nice idea!
And imho, the combo-box may be a god way to force people to choose one of
the available licenses.

Aoineko

----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Prodromou" <evan at wikitravel.org>
To: <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
Cc: <wikitech-l at Wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Force user to choose a licence when uploading
data

> >>>>> "GB" == Guillaume Blanchard <gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp> writes:
>
>     GB> * Automatically add {{msg:<NameOfLicence>}} to the bottom of
>     GB> media description page.
>
> Actually, it'd make things a lot easier for everyone if some code for
> the license was in a database field. Easier to separate out stuff with
> incompatible licenses, for instance.
>
> ~ESP
>
> --
> Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
> Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
> The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Elections

body:
We need to have elections for the board of directors within some time
period after the bylaws are signed, which isn't quite yet.  (I have
signatures from the other two, but I've delayed signing myself just to
prevent this clock from starting to tick too soon!)

There are two seats up for election, and I need to refresh my memory
by re-reading the bylaws to get everything setup for the elections.  I
believe we need a couple of volunteers who are not running for
election to serve as election administrators or something like that.

Please volunteer!  And I'll post more tomorrow about what we need to
do.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] Crawler-delay excessive?

body:
I (and the other sysops on WikipediaNL) recently got a message from Ilse, which
is an important Dutch search engine (actually, the largest one that is specifically
directed towards Dutch content). They wanted to put nl.wikipedia.org in their
search engine, but had problems with the 15 second crawl-delay specified in our
robots.txt. And indeed, when we're talking about the bot of a search engine
spidering Wikipedia, a delay of 15 seconds between visits seems rather exessive.
If a search engine would like to crawl the English Wikipedia that way (and we would
like to be in the various search engines, don't we?), it would cost them about
2 months of 24-hour days to do so, probably more (this was on a rather conservative
estimate on the number of pages). To me this sounds like too much. I would thus
want to ask to consider a considerable reduction of the crawl-delay. Alternatively,
we could do so for a 'whitelist' of trusted User agents.

Andre Engels


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [[Link (something)|]] parsing

body:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:56:20 +1100, Tim Starling wrote:

> Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I saw a feature request at sourceforge asking to stop expanding wikilinks
>> like [[link (something)|]] to [[link (something)|link]].
>>
>> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=411195&aid=914166&group_id=34373
>>
>> As stated in the feature request, I believe that it prevents non
>> experimented user to learn a great shortcut offered by the software, it
>> will also save a few bytes in the database, but mainly will render the
>> source text a bit easier to read ...
>>
>> What are your opinions ? Should we stop expanding it ?
>
> I think you mean that the substitution should be done as the link is
> rendered rather than in the pre-save transform stage. In which case yes,
> I agree, that's the wrong way to do it. Fixing it requires mucking
> around with replaceInternalLinks(), or whatever it's called these days.
>
> -- Tim Starling

The idea is to stop substitution :0)  This way people will be able to see
this great shortcut and use it !

--
Ashar Voultoiz
http://fr.wikipedia.org/Utilisateur:Hashar
do not send mail to listme at listme.dsbl.org


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
Now that we have a decision regarding Wik, we need to take a look at
unprotecting the articles that were protected because of him. If he keeps it
up we need to take another look at remedies for Wik.

Fred

> From: Bjorn Lindqvist <bjrn.lindqvist at telia.com>
> Reply-To: bjrn.lindqvist at telia.com, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:20:24 +0100
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Edit war policy meaningless
>
> I unprotected it three times already, and
>> every time Wik came back to revert it almost instantly. It is protected to
>> this day. So what are we gonna do -- keep it protected forever? That is an
>> unfair punishment of everyone else.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Strangeness with  Wikipedia:Orphaned Articles

body:
I'm not sure what exactly this all means, but I am
hopeful that it will mean something to someone else...

I've just finished doing some "repair" work on
[[wikipedia:Orphaned Articles]]. I had to remove
multiple repeated segments of the page. I say
"segments" because they did not directly correspond
with sections. Multiple sections were repeated as a
group, though it did seem to be on section boundaries.

Either someone was extraordinarily careless (or
deliberately disruptive), or somehow the data got
mashed together incorrectly. (probably in the
database?)

I did not compare the repeated segments to verify that
they matched, so some changes could have been lost
(not a huge issue with this page -- just some extra
work). However, it did not seem to over-write data,
just sort of append them together in strange ways.

My main concern is that this could be happening to
other pages where loss of changes could be much more
significant.

Is this a known bug? Something to do with edit
conflicts that are not handled correctly?

-Rich Holton ([[User:Rholton]])

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I saw a feature request at sourceforge asking to stop expanding wikilinks
> like [[link (something)|]] to [[link (something)|link]].
>
> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=411195&aid=914166&group_id=34373
>
> As stated in the feature request, I believe that it prevents non
> experimented user to learn a great shortcut offered by the software, it
> will also save a few bytes in the database, but mainly will render the
> source text a bit easier to read ...
>
> What are your opinions ? Should we stop expanding it ?

I think you mean that the substitution should be done as the link is
rendered rather than in the pre-save transform stage. In which case yes,
I agree, that's the wrong way to do it. Fixing it requires mucking
around with replaceInternalLinks(), or whatever it's called these days.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Elections

body:
I would like to volunteer as an election administrator.

Danny
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Elections

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>We need to have elections for the board of directors within some time
>period after the bylaws are signed, which isn't quite yet.  (I have
>signatures from the other two, but I've delayed signing myself just to
>prevent this clock from starting to tick too soon!)
>
>There are two seats up for election, and I need to refresh my memory
>by re-reading the bylaws to get everything setup for the elections.  I
>believe we need a couple of volunteers who are not running for
>election to serve as election administrators or something like that.
>
>Please volunteer!  And I'll post more tomorrow about what we need to
>do.
>
I have created the following page so that information about the
elections gets on the wiki, and not just the mailing list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Elections

I apologize for the fact that this is English-centric right now. Feel
free to translate the portion relating to the Wikimedia board and post
it on as many other languages as possible.

--Michael Snow


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Crawler-delay excessive?

body:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:28:00 +0000, Andre Engels wrote:

> I (and the other sysops on WikipediaNL) recently got a message from Ilse,
> which is an important Dutch search engine (actually, the largest one that
> is specifically directed towards Dutch content). They wanted to put
> nl.wikipedia.org in their search engine, but had problems with the 15
> second crawl-delay specified in our robots.txt. And indeed, when we're
> talking about the bot of a search engine spidering Wikipedia, a delay of
> 15 seconds between visits seems rather exessive. If a search engine would
> like to crawl the English Wikipedia that way (and we would like to be in
> the various search engines, don't we?), it would cost them about 2 months
> of 24-hour days to do so, probably more (this was on a rather conservative
> estimate on the number of pages). To me this sounds like too much. I would
> thus want to ask to consider a considerable reduction of the crawl-delay.
> Alternatively, we could do so for a 'whitelist' of trusted User agents.

Most web engines crawl in off-peak hours anyway and most of their requests
will be squid cache hits. And a few requests per second more or less
don't really matter given an average request rate of about 90 requests per
second.

I've changed the delay to one second now.

--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Force user to choose a licence
	when uploading data

body:
Evan Prodromou wrote:
>>>>>>"GB" == Guillaume Blanchard <gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp> writes:
>
>
>     GB> * Automatically add {{msg:<NameOfLicence>}} to the bottom of
>     GB> media description page.
>
> Actually, it'd make things a lot easier for everyone if some code for
> the license was in a database field. Easier to separate out stuff with
> incompatible licenses, for instance.
>
> ~ESP
>

Thanks it's exactely what we need.

Alas, now uploading doesn't work anymore on fr:
Can someone look at this, please?

-- Looxix


body:
It is just an example (I put some licenses to illustrate my idea). The goal
is to put *all* licenses compatible with Wikipedia's GFDL so user can
understand what he can or cannot upload to Wikipedia. If we found a new
compatible licence is found, we just have to add it to the list. Split PD
licence sound good, but if possible I think we shouldn't allow "other
licence".

Example page: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload

Aoineko

From: "Andre Engels" <engelsAG at t-online.de>

"Guillaume Blanchard" <gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp> schrieb:
> A license' flag for medias may be a very nice idea!
> And imho, the combo-box may be a god way to force people to choose one of
> the available licenses.

Looking at the French box, I miss a few options, though. First, CC-BY, or
even better "CC-BY or similar" for stuff that can be used freely when
attributed. Second, I would like to split PD in "PD - granted to PD" and
"PD - copyright expired". Finally, a choice "Other - specify on image page".
And indeed, the author field would also be useful.

Andre Engels


body:
Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
>
> Evan Prodromou wrote:
>
>>>>>>> "GB" == Guillaume Blanchard <gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>     GB> * Automatically add {{msg:<NameOfLicence>}} to the bottom of
>>     GB> media description page.
>>
>> Actually, it'd make things a lot easier for everyone if some code for
>> the license was in a database field. Easier to separate out stuff with
>> incompatible licenses, for instance.
>>
>> ~ESP
>>
>
> Thanks it's exactely what we need.
>
> Alas, now uploading doesn't work anymore on fr:
> Can someone look at this, please?
>
> -- Looxix

The problem seems to come to the change that was done on [[MediaWiki:Affirmation]]
(I have changed it now)

The HTML source og the upload page is then like this:

<form id="upload" method="post" enctype="multipart/form-data"
action="/wiki/Special:Upload">

Nom:
<input tabindex=1 type=file name="wpUploadFile" value="" size=40>

Description:
<input tabindex=2 type=text name="wpUploadDescription" value="" size=40>

<input tabindex=3 type=checkbox name="wpUploadAffirm" value="1" id="wpUploadAffirm">
	<form>

                                                 ^^^^^^
<select name="licence">
<option value="Choix 1">Choisir une licence
<option value="Choix 2">GFDL
<option value="Choix 3">GPL

<option value="Choix 4">LGPL
<option value="Choix 5">Domaine public
<option value="Choix 6">Fair Use
<option value="Choix 7">Art libre
<option value="Choix 8">CC-AS
<option value="Choix 9">CC-BY-AS
</select>
</form>

Je d?clare avoir pris connaissance des r?gles d'utilisation des fichiers et que le d?tenteur de son copyright accepte de le diffuser selon les termes de la licence Wikip?dia.

<input tabindex=5 type=submit name="wpUpload" value="Copier un fichier">

</form>

An extra <form> was inserted in the form.

Hope it helps.
-- Looxix


subject: [Wikipedia-l] KJV Bible on s.w.o?

body:
On Tuesday, March 16, 2004, at 07:04  AM, Gareth Owen wrote:

> Joshua Holman <joshua at sillydog.org> writes:
>
>> *The KJV crown copyright is a letters patent not a copyright;
>> *The patent is enforced;
>
> You could have read this at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version !

I know.

Someone on the talk page hinted the copyright/Letters Patent was bogus
and I did a little research that proved that false.

>
>> Since Wikipedia has contributors from the UK,
>> should we think twice about posting the KJV to s.w.o?
>
> No.

That's good to hear.

Joshua Holman
AKA Hoshie

--
Joshua Holman - joshua at sillydog dot org
AIM: mozillaguy - Y!: hoshie331
John Kerry for President!
http://www.johnkerry.com


from_name: Bjorn Lindqvist

body:
> That's completely pointless if the user doesn't really care about what
> version a page remains in but enjoys the process of fighting per se. That
> seems to be the case with Wik. He reverts, reverts, reverts, reverts, then
> he even *asks* for protection of the page. As soon as it becomes
> unprotected again, he will continue reverting to his preferred version.
> This happened with [[McFly]] -- I unprotected it three times already, and
> every time Wik came back to revert it almost instantly. It is protected to
> this day. So what are we gonna do -- keep it protected forever? That is an
> unfair punishment of everyone else.

The common theme among malicious users is that they sooner or later
disappear. Sooner or later they will get bored and go away and then
someone will be there and revert their trash. Or they learn the
wikispirit and stop doing malicious things. Meanwhile, there are about
200,000 other articles you and everyone else can edit. As I highly
doubt that you (or anyone except for Anthony himself) are any
interested in [[McFly]] at all.

BL


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Elections

body:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:

> I would like to volunteer as an election administrator.

As would I.

Imran
--
http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran


from_name: Brian M. Schkerke

body:
I'm no genius with PHP so the following could be the mutterings of a
deranged hermit, but my path is set in php.ini as

	session.save_path = /php/sessiondata

I also needed to specifically grant the user I run the web server as
permissions to that directory.  (Right click, Properties, Security, add or
select the web server user, ensure they have read/write permissions to the
directory.)

I don't know if / is drastically different from \ on a Win32 platform under
PHP.  My gut feeling is no, your path is correct but your permissions
aren't.  You can specify the drive letter as well, i.e.

	session.save_path = c:/php/sessiondata

The second and third errors are caused by the first.  The first error causes
premature output of HTML - the error message.  PHP isn't finished
initializing the connection and continues to attempt to send header
information, causing the 2nd and 3rd error.

Brian Schkerke
Lead Developer
NETCO, Inc.
http://www.netcotitle.com
(636) 925-8657

-----Original Message-----
From: sam [mailto:samzhao2002 at 163.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 1:41 AM
To: schkerke
Subject: [bmschkerke] [Wikitech-l] Question about Install on Win2K

I tried using In-place web install of mediawiki-1.2.0rc4.tar.gz on Win2k, it
is said that the installation is successful, and the first page is OK ,but
when i try to Edit any page, lots of errors:

	Warning: session_start():
open(/tmp\sess_a12e331b155be7b080c8a358361d0dd1, O_RDWR) failed: No such
file or directory (2) in C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php on line 146

	Warning: session_start(): Cannot send session cookie - headers
already sent by (output started at C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php:146)
in C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php on line 146

	Warning: session_start(): Cannot send session cache limiter -
headers already sent (output started at
C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php:146) in
C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php on line 146

	........................

Somebody said it's because my PHP is misconfiged, change session.save_path
to a path that exists. So I set
	session.save_path = C:\win\temp
and restart apache, but nothing changed, still lots of warnings on the page.

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] about Sedna

body:
Heh, well, clearly a relationship could be drawn, see

http://www.crystalinks.com/nibiru.html

The red color does raise the possibility of iron (or nitrogen), but ice is
expected at that distance.

My God, the Navy, brings back old nightmares...

Fred

From: "Delancey, Amanda FC3" <delancea at kearsarge.navy.mil>
Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:34:01 -0500
To: "'wikien-l at wikipedia.org'" <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] about Sedna

I was just curious if anyone has made the similarity between the much talked
about Sedna and Nibiru. Seems to me that they have the same liptical orbit
and are due within the next 50 years to pass by the earth.

Also, They say its smaller than pluto. But it IS coming closer, Can they
tell if it is the same density as Earth. I predict it's at least 6 times
denser. Could you please email me a response. I am very interested in this.

V/R
FC3 Delancey

USS KEARSARGE(LHD-3)
C5I/CD
X-7233
"No Act of Kindness, No matter how small, Is ever wasted"

OPSEC WARNING

<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>
1.  Do not discuss ship's schedule, operations, location or any other
sensitive information.
2.  All messages to and from the ship are subject to monitoring for
violations.
3.  Bandwidth to the ship is limited - minimize message size and avoid
including the original e-mail when responding.
4.  Avoid sending file attachments unless for official business.
5.  Our adversaries work hard to obtain information about the Amphibious
Task Force.....Don't make it easy for them!!!

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed

body:
On Mar 17, 2004, at 11:58, Andre Engels wrote:

> In my discussion with Ilse (based on which I recently sent the request
> to reduce
> the put_throttle), we also got to the subject of XML feeds. I
> mentioned that
> Yahoo was already getting one, and my contact at Ilse said he would be
> interested
> in such. Thus my questions:

As far as I know the Yahoo XML feed is mythical. If it exists, I don't
know about it.

The next major version of MediaWiki will have more pervasive ability to
generate feeds in RSS and probably Atom formats (currently
Special:Newpages in the CVS version can produce a simple RSS feed, but
the code's there to do more).

> * Would sending out XML feeds to other parties with a good reason for
> interest
>   be a good idea or would it be detrimental (how much is for example
> the load on
>   the servers of sending out an XML feed compared to being spidered by
> a search
>   engine?)

Search engines will spider the site anyway, as they spider every other
site.

A real RecentChanges feed could be more useful to someone
mirroring/republishing the content grabbing updates live rather than
checking on demand or grabbing a huge backup dump every week.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Delancey, Amanda FC3

subject: [WikiEN-l] about Sedna

body:
I was just curious if anyone has made the similarity between the much talked
about Sedna and Nibiru. Seems to me that they have the same liptical orbit
and are due within the next 50 years to pass by the earth.
Also, They say its smaller than pluto. But it IS coming closer, Can they
tell if it is the same density as Earth. I predict it's at least 6 times
denser. Could you please email me a response. I am very interested in this.

V/R
FC3 Delancey

USS KEARSARGE(LHD-3)
C5I/CD
X-7233
"No Act of Kindness, No matter how small, Is ever wasted"

> OPSEC WARNING
>
> <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>
> 1.  Do not discuss ship's schedule, operations, location or any other
> sensitive information.
> 2.  All messages to and from the ship are subject to monitoring for
> violations.
> 3.  Bandwidth to the ship is limited - minimize message size and avoid
> including the original e-mail when responding.
> 4.  Avoid sending file attachments unless for official business.
> 5.  Our adversaries work hard to obtain information about the Amphibious
> Task Force.....Don't make it easy for them!!!
>
>
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subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed

body:
To me, making available an XML feed in a variety of formats is a
sensible thing to do.  One good candidate format would be RDF/RSS.

This is particularly true for parties who may have a serious interest.
I mean, I'm not too keen on random individuals downloading a massive
file every day just to update some internal search engine on their
home machine or whatever, although if the load is small, it does no
harm.

But I'm very keen on "getting the word out" and so anyone who is
either indexing our content for a search engine or re-using our
content in some fashion that will get it out to a larger audience,
then that's great.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed

body:
In my discussion with Ilse (based on which I recently sent the request to reduce
the put_throttle), we also got to the subject of XML feeds. I mentioned that
Yahoo was already getting one, and my contact at Ilse said he would be interested
in such. Thus my questions:

* Would sending out XML feeds to other parties with a good reason for interest
  be a good idea or would it be detrimental (how much is for example the load on
  the servers of sending out an XML feed compared to being spidered by a search
  engine?)
* If the answer is positive, who can I or my contact contact to discuss the
  possibility?

Andre Engels


from_name: Kelly Anderson

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: French Wikipedia decided to switch to
  UTF-8 !

references:
<00c001c405be$c1093df0$d100a8c0@arcsy.co.jp>
	<87d67m10hi.fsf@unicorn.bad-people-of-the-future.san-francisco.ca.us>
	<c2kps3$9en$2@sea.gmane.org>

body:
While I don't question anyone's knowledge here relating to the UTF-8
debate, I would suggest a possible resource for working out some of the
issues that might be involved. There is a list hosted on Yahoo Groups
called i18n-prog where there are a couple hundred world class experts on
internationalization and localization issues. I would suggest that anyone
working on Internationalization of WikiMedia (or any other project) would
be well served to subscribe to that list and ask lots of questions going
forward... they are great folks there.

-Kelly


from_name: Mikhail Capone

subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed

body:
Neil Harris wrote:
> I would imagine that an XML feed would allow a significant reduction in
> load, or a significant increase in freshness for the same level of load,
> if it was used widely by spider operators.
[...]
> -- Neil

Is the XML feed compressed (gzipped?)? That could save bandwidth too.

--
Mikhail / http://MikeCapone.blogspot.com


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikimedia bylaws/elections

body:
I tried to find some info about the other members of the board of
trustees that are not democratically chosen, besides Jimbo, but failed.

Who are they? Why is only a minority of the board chosen democratically?

I won't argue about Jimbo's right to be in. But is the benevolent
dictatorship now extended to a benevolent triumvirate with two guests?

Erik Zachte
.
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body:
I think there is universal support for this proposal, actually this
proposal:

1.  Force the user to choose a license
2.  Force the user to fill out a field (or more?) indicating the source
3.  Write this on the page: {{msg:<NameOfLicense>}}
4.  Additionally store the license and source information in a separate
database field

Now that we have our wish list, all that is needed is source code!

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> As far as I know the Yahoo XML feed is mythical. If it exists, I don't
> know about it.

Jason is or was working on it.  I've asked him to post to wikitech-l
explaining it, and getting advice from you all.

--Jimbo


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed

body:
Andre Engels wrote:

>In my discussion with Ilse (based on which I recently sent the request to reduce
>the put_throttle), we also got to the subject of XML feeds. I mentioned that
>Yahoo was already getting one, and my contact at Ilse said he would be interested
>in such. Thus my questions:
>
>* Would sending out XML feeds to other parties with a good reason for interest
>  be a good idea or would it be detrimental (how much is for example the load on
>  the servers of sending out an XML feed compared to being spidered by a search
>  engine?)
>* If the answer is positive, who can I or my contact contact to discuss the
>  possibility?
>
>Andre Engels
>
>
>
I would imagine that an XML feed would allow a significant reduction in
load, or a significant increase in freshness for the same level of load,
if it was used widely by spider operators.

Each spider that simply spiders the site repetitively will have to hit
every page with at least a last-modification-time request to get up to
date, and then download all the pages that have changed. The more
up-to-date a spider operator wants to be, the more load they need to
generate.

For example, for 500,000 articles, keeping up to date within a day makes
for 500,000 hits per day, or 5 hits per second 24/7, just to check the
timestamps. Then the updated articles (about 1000 to 3000) would still
need to be uploaded each day.

On the other hand, if they switch to using an XML feed, they can be
up-to-date to within an hour or so, and only download the pages that
have changed: perhaps 1000 to 3000 hits per day. This only corresponds
to one hit every 30 seconds or so. The overhead of polling the XML feed
every hour or so would be negligible.

We should consider adding a bit of filtering to the XML feed, so that
users can select their degree of granularity: for example, allowing them
to be notified of every single change, or only the last change in an
hour, a day, or other time period. Programmable hysteresis-based
filtering would also be interesting, to suppress notification until the
end of a "burst" of editing on a page: for example "1 hour after the
first edit since the last notification, or 10 minutes since the most
recent edit, whichever is earlier". With the right tuning this could try
to make sure that articles were "stable" when notification was sent via
the XML feed.

-- Neil


from_name: Arno M

subject: [WikiEN-l] Plato/Jesus Chirst

body:
An update on Jesus Chirst:

Jesus Chirst has returned as Plato. He's left a note
on Jimbo's page saying that he did not know of the
offensive names policy, that he's sorry and loves
Jesus, etc.

____________________________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Strangeness with  Wikipedia:Orphaned Articles

body:
Rich Holton wrote:

> I'm not sure what exactly this all means, but I am
> hopeful that it will mean something to someone else...

Hiya. First of all, please could you not reply to a message that has
nothing to do with your message? That way your posting shows up in a
thread which has nothing to do with it. Thanks.

> I've just finished doing some "repair" work on
> [[wikipedia:Orphaned Articles]].

Whoa. That pages seems like a mess. Well, not anymore, because I've
fixed it just now, but this is what it looked like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Orphaned_articles&oldid=2805051

Are you sure you meant this page?... Nobody appears to have made edits
to it since January.

> I had to remove
> multiple repeated segments of the page. I say
> "segments" because they did not directly correspond
> with sections. Multiple sections were repeated as a
> group, though it did seem to be on section boundaries.

This description is pretty vague and unclear, but it does seem to
resemble something similar that I experienced on [[Wikipedia:Duplicate
articles]]. The sections U, W, X, Y, Z, were suddenly duplicated at the
bottom of the page. (Oh, the irony.)

> My main concern is that this could be happening to
> other pages where loss of changes could be much more
> significant.

Assuming you didn't actually mean [[Wikipedia:Orphaned articles]], but
some other page: Did you check the history of the page in question? It
seems unlikely that the error would affect the entire revision history.
If significant information gets lost, you should always be able to
retrieve it from an older revision.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: fr try to go to UTF-8

body:
Camille Constans wrote:

> But I have some pbs, fr2 seem set in french but when you go on http://fr2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Specialpages it is set to english !

This seems to be fixed now.

However, I'm wondering: Why is it "Special", and not "Sp?cial" (even on fr)?

Timwi


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Question about Install on Win2K

body:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:41:24 +0800, sam wrote:
> 	........................
>
> Somebody said it's because my PHP is misconfiged, change session.save_path
> to a path that exists. So I set
> 	session.save_path = C:\win\temp
> and restart apache, but nothing changed, still lots of warnings on the
> page.

Hello,

What's the new error message ?

Are you sure c:\win\temp exist and that apache can write to it ? ;)

cheers,

--
Ashar Voultoiz
http://fr.wikipedia.org/Utilisateur:Hashar
do not send mail to listme at listme.dsbl.org


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Mediation board

body:
Anthere wrote to Erik:

> I would like to ask again that you transfer adminiship of the forum to
> someone else; If you think it should be done by a developer, please
> transfer it to Brion or Tim. I do not think it will be very heavy on them.

As Erik is not a mediator, I agree that it would be appropriate for
adminship to be in the hands of a mediator.


from_name: Gutza

subject: [WikiEN-l] Plato/Jesus Chirst

body:
Arno M wrote:

>An update on Jesus Chirst:
>
>Jesus Chirst has returned as Plato. He's left a note
>on Jimbo's page saying that he did not know of the
>offensive names policy, that he's sorry and loves
>Jesus, etc.
>
>
You're wrong. Jesus Christ returned as Ted Jesus Christ GOD:
http://tedjesuschristgod.org :)

--Gutza


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: [webmaster@theroyalhouseofportugal.org: a problem
 about license violation]

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

> Apparently this was not a copyright infringement, since the webmaster of
> the site in question says it's o.k.  That's how I read this, anyway, but
> someone should follow up?

# 11:19, 16 Mar 2004 Muriel Gottrop deleted "House of Braganza" (this is
patent nonsense and thus a candidate for speedy deletion)

Apparently this was not deleted for copyright infringement after all.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed

body:
On Mar 17, 2004, at 09:10, Mikhail Capone wrote:
> Is the XML feed compressed (gzipped?)? That could save bandwidth too.

We do gzip output from the wiki if the user-agent claims to support it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: sam

subject: [Wikitech-l] Question about Install on Win2K

body:
I tried using In-place web install of mediawiki-1.2.0rc4.tar.gz on Win2k, it is said that the installation is successful, and the first page is OK ,but when i try to Edit any page, lots of errors:

	Warning: session_start(): open(/tmp\sess_a12e331b155be7b080c8a358361d0dd1, O_RDWR) failed: No such file or directory (2) in C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php on line 146

	Warning: session_start(): Cannot send session cookie - headers already sent by (output started at C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php:146) in C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php on line 146

	Warning: session_start(): Cannot send session cache limiter - headers already sent (output started at C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php:146) in C:\myweb\mediawiki\includes\User.php on line 146

	........................

Somebody said it's because my PHP is misconfiged, change session.save_path to a path that exists. So I set
	session.save_path = C:\win\temp
and restart apache, but nothing changed, still lots of warnings on the page.


from_name: Rich Holton

body:
--- Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Rich Holton wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure what exactly this all means, but I am
> > hopeful that it will mean something to someone
> else...
>
> Hiya. First of all, please could you not reply to a
> message that has
> nothing to do with your message? That way your
> posting shows up in a
> thread which has nothing to do with it. Thanks.
>
Ahhh! Mea culpa! If this reply isn't correct, I'll
have to sign up for remedial training.

> > I've just finished doing some "repair" work on
> > [[wikipedia:Orphaned Articles]].
>
> Whoa. That pages seems like a mess. Well, not
> anymore, because I've
> fixed it just now, but this is what it looked like:
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Orphaned_articles&oldid=2805051
>
> Are you sure you meant this page?... Nobody appears
> to have made edits
> to it since January.
>
Ummm... [[wikipedia:Orphaned Articles]] is distinct
from [[wikipedia:Orphaned articles]] (look closely). I
understand the need for, but still hate, case
sensitivity.

> > I had to remove
> > multiple repeated segments of the page. I say
> > "segments" because they did not directly
> correspond
> > with sections. Multiple sections were repeated as
> a
> > group, though it did seem to be on section
> boundaries.
>
> This description is pretty vague and unclear, but it
> does seem to
> resemble something similar that I experienced on
> [[Wikipedia:Duplicate
> articles]]. The sections U, W, X, Y, Z, were
> suddenly duplicated at the
> bottom of the page. (Oh, the irony.)
>
Yeah, a valid criticism of my description (but it was
perfectly clear to ME what I meant! ;) Now that my
mind is clearer (and I've been properly chastised for
my vagueness), I can report the following:

It does sound similar to what you describe, though
more muddled. Here we had:
-Heading plus sections A & B
-Heading
-Heading plus sections A thru Z (ie whole correct
page)
-Sections D thru Z

Fortunately, I came along only three changes past
where the corruption occurred, and all the changes
were made to the part that corresponded to the whole
correct page, which is what I retained. So nothing was
lost, as it turns out. By the way, kudos to whoever
conceived of and implemented the
comparison-between-arbitrary-versions feature.

Looking at the page history, it's clear that the
corruption was introduced when someone attempted to
submit the same change three times in a row --
probably because of an apparent lack of response.

> > My main concern is that this could be happening to
> > other pages where loss of changes could be much
> more
> > significant.
>
Still my main concern.

> If significant information gets lost, you should
> always be able to
> retrieve it from an older revision.
>
Thanks for your attention to this, Timwi. I do tend to
forget the power of the revision history. Obviously,
any loss could be recovered, but the work required to
do so could be truly significant, depending upon the
page in question, the nature of the corruption, and
how many additional revisions happened between the
corruption and its detection.

Again, thanks for your attention. I hope I've made a
clearer report. I no longer see this to be
particularly urgent, but I still consider it to be
important.

-Rich Holton

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Gnutella

body:
I'm sorry if my ignorance is showing here, but I went to both sourceforge
and gnutella.com and I still don't have any idea what gnutella is, other
than it's a peer to peer networking protocol for file sharing. In other
words, I can't figure out why Gnutella is different from Ares, the old
Napster, or Bittorrent from an architectural point of view.

I am more familiar with Bittorrent, which is very useful for distributing
copies of very large files (which a pdf version of Wikipedia would
certainly qualify as) without using hardly any bandwidth on the main
server. It's very cool that way. Perhaps Gnutella is similarly cool, but I
can't find a "what is Gnutella" web page.

Quoting: "The practical implication is that the BitTorrent system makes it
easy to
distribute very large files to large numbers of people while placing minimal
bandwidth requirements on the original "seeder." That is because everyone
who wants the file is sharing with one another, rather than downloading from
a central source. A separate file-sharing network known as eDonkey uses a
similar system."

Would someone who is familiar with both Gnutella and Bittorrent tell me why
using Bittorrent for such a project would be stupid? It would certainly use
less of Wikipedia's already strained bandwidth.

-Kelly

At 04:10 PM 3/9/2004, you wrote:
> >>>>> "IF" == Itai Fiat <itai at mail.portland.co.uk> writes:
>
>     IF> Hello, This my first post to wikitech-l (yay!), and a
>     IF> presumptuous one at that. I recently had an idea, and have
>     IF> written an written a short (the frame of reference being the
>     IF> Magna Carta) article describing it at
>     IF> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnutella (for confusions
>     IF> sake, the content of the article will not be recounted
>     IF> here). While I have no problem developing this myself, I was
>     IF> wondering if anybody has any objections - or, better yet,
>     IF> suggestions or cash - they'd like to contribute in advance.
>
>So, I added comments on-site, but here's my feeling:
>
>I think a p2p distribution mechanism for Wikipedia is an EXCELLENT
>idea. It would/could do a lot to lower the load on the main servers.
>
>I also think that if I had a fancy new-generation p2p client, I'd make
>a go of re-distributing Wikipedia content. It would be a great way to
>promote my network, especially if it has support for in-network
>Websites (like Freenet does).
>
>But I don't think this is core functionality for Wikimedia, and I
>doubt that it'll get a lot of support around here. I think probably
>the best idea is to download the database dumps, and maybe experiment
>from there.
>
>You may want to shop this idea with one of the open source P2P network
>groups, to see what they think about it. Frankly, there's more
>benefit for a P2P network than there is to Wikipedia, so they'll
>probably be more interested.
>
>Anyways, good idea. You're gonna need to stick with it to see it
>happen, though. The best ideas are like that.
>
>~ESP
>
>--
>Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
>Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
>The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Peter Jaros

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mediation board

body:
On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 01:17 PM, Anthere wrote:

> Today, a whole thread was deleted from the mediation board.

Isn't there a better place to put this discussion?  There ought to be.

Peter

                                   -- ---<>--- --
                         A house without walls cannot fall.
            Help build the world's largest encyclopedia at Wikipedia.org
                                   -- ---<>--- --


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Force user to choose a licence when uploading data

body:
On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 03:55 PM, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> I think there is universal support for this proposal, actually this
> proposal:
>
> 1.  Force the user to choose a license
> 2.  Force the user to fill out a field (or more?) indicating the source
> 3.  Write this on the page: {{msg:<NameOfLicense>}}
> 4.  Additionally store the license and source information in a separate
> database field

What about {{msg:CopyrightedFreeUseProvided}}, which takes an
"argument" (text following the tag)?  Perhaps a text field after the
license choice?

Peter


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Spambot

references:
<405119B4.9050307@hotmail.com>
	<8765daoi3m.fsf@unicorn.bad-people-of-the-future.san-francisco.ca.us>
	<20040312174929.GH1585@joey.bomis.com>

body:
I'm all for making fun of the patent system. Especially the software patent
system. Having written a patent or two myself in the past, I can tell you
that it would not be horrendously difficult, but it would likely involve
some expense due to the filing fees and so forth. It would be fun to write
a patent as a wiki page... :-)

One problem with patents in the open source community is that application
for the patent generally should proceed publication of the idea, and filing
of the patent must occur no more than one year after the idea has been made
public.

-Kelly

At 10:49 AM 3/12/2004, you wrote:
>Good grief.  The patent system is out of control.
>
>Actually, since the original captcha idea is in fact clever, and since
>I'm not a totally anti-patent person, I could it being reasonable to
>reward the inventors of the idea with a 2 year patent.  17 years is an
>infinity.
>
>I wonder if there are things that we've developed in house here at
>Wikimedia that we should patent, just to license our patents freely
>of course, and also to make fun of the patent system.
>
>--Jimbo
>
>Evan Prodromou wrote:
>
> > >>>>> "TS" == Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >     >> Here's one idea -- a switch to toggle a captcha.
> >
> > That's an extremely good idea. Only one problem: I believe that there
> > are patent issues around captchas. Not saying that Wikipedia couldn't
> > get a patent license, but it'd have to stay out of the distributed
> > MediaWiki code.
> >
> > I'm not sure about this and I'm not turning up any terribly
> > informative Google hits except this one:
> >
> >    http://www2.parc.com/istl/projects/captcha/history.htm
> >
> > ~ESP
> >
> > --
> > Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
> > Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
> > The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: bandwidth thieves blocked

body:
If someone on the WikiMedia project provided code for caching images
remotely that could be used by other sites, that would solve the problem to
a great extent...

The algorithm could be as simple as
1) Give me a list of all images that were updated in the last N hours
2) download them.

This might be hard, but it doesn't seem so given the capabilities I think
already exist in WikiMedia.

-Kelly

At 11:28 AM 3/12/2004, you wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:21:08 -0800, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
> > I'd like to ask that this block on worldhistory be dropped
> > immediately, as David has a point here, and he's being very courteous
> > to come here and chat about it.
>
>Worldhistory is not blocked anymore.
>
>In my personal opinion spidering the images and hosting them locally isn't
>too much to ask for if the sites are commercial. It saves a lot of
>bandwith as they are only downloaded once, and it's really not hard to do
>with wget or similar. If this is done in off-peak hours, even better.
>
>Previous discussions on this that i found via google:
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikilegal-l/2004-January/000220.html
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copies_of_Wikipedia_content_(low_degree_of_compliance)
>
>If the concensus is against blocking i'll switch it off of course.
>
>Cheers
>--
>Gabriel Wicke
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: Patents - Was [Wikitech-l] Re: Spambot

body:
You are more likely to be granted patents on obscure little corners, not
the overall concept. Think of some clever solution to some difficult
problem. For example, if we came up with a really good solution to the
Vandalism problem, that would be a good candidate for a patent.

-Kelly

At 08:34 PM 3/12/2004, you wrote:
>"Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com> schrieb:
> > Good grief.  The patent system is out of control.
> >
> > Actually, since the original captcha idea is in fact clever, and since
> > I'm not a totally anti-patent person, I could it being reasonable to
> > reward the inventors of the idea with a 2 year patent.  17 years is an
> > infinity.
> >
> > I wonder if there are things that we've developed in house here at
> > Wikimedia that we should patent, just to license our patents freely
> > of course, and also to make fun of the patent system.
>
>Problem is that patents cost money and time to issue. On the other hand,
>if we find a way to issue it in some way that it is "free, provided you
>don't stand on our mat with your patents either", it might be useful.
>
>Now, I don't know the inner workings of the Wikipedia software well
>enough to know what might be patented there, but on the outside:
>
>* best to patent, but most likely to fall short on being the first would
>   of course be the combination of wiki-like technology with databases.
>   Something like using a database to enable users to change webpages and
>   storing them in a simplified format that can be worked into HTML.
>* namespaces. Having webpages in a database with both a title and an
>   identifier giving various kinds of pages. Could be patented as a way
>   of allowing users to make comments on webpages (on a separate page)
>* reverting. Having an interface to show changes to webpages and restore
>   them easily to an older version
>
>There's probably more, but it's past 4 am here...
>
>Andre Engels
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mediation board

body:
Anthere-
> Today, a whole thread was deleted from the mediation board.

Yes. The thread consisted exclusively of

"yesterday"
"deleted"
"yesterday"
"deleted"
"yesterday"
"deleted"

As there was no information contained in this thread, I removed it, like I
would instant-delete an article containing nothing but "oajsdpofjasdf".
And no, these messages don't have a history - once you edit it, the old
text is gone.

Regards,
Erik


from_name: Oliver Brown

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bylaws

body:
Clarifications and opinions:

Article 3, Section 1B: I am guessing that the difference between a
Volunteer Active Member and a Contributing Active Member is the
Volunteer Active Member has not applied for membership and has not paid
annual dues. This should be said explicitly in 3B; it should not be
simply implied.
Article 3, Section 1D: "Individuals who contribute substantial
amounts..." of money? of code? of data? technical support? This should
be said explicitly in 3D; it should not be simply implied.
Article 3, Section 1E: IMHO, Corporate Memberships should not be a part
of Wikimedia.
Article 3, Section 1F: "a significant contribution"..of money? code?
data? technical support? Also, if an Honorary Member cannot hold office
or vote, what's the point?
Article 4, Section 2.1: IMHO, rules and regulations of voting procedures
should never be left to a Board of Trustees. At least the essential
aspects should be laid out in the Bylaws.
Article 4, Section 2.3: IMHO, the interim Member Representative should
be elected by the members, not appointed by the Trustees.
Article 5, Section 5: IMHO, it should be added that the treasurer
perform and publish an annual audit.

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy Wales
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 3:38 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org; wikien-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bylaws

Accessible now from
http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/

The link is on the left hand side.

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
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from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mediation board

body:
Erik wrote:

> Anthere-
> > Today, a whole thread was deleted from the mediation board.
>
> Yes. The thread consisted exclusively of
>
> "yesterday"
> "deleted"
> "yesterday"
> "deleted"
> "yesterday"
> "deleted"
>
> As there was no information contained in this thread, I removed it, like I
> would instant-delete an article containing nothing but "oajsdpofjasdf".
> And no, these messages don't have a history - once you edit it, the old
> text is gone.
>
> Regards,
> Erik

My last message was still there as far as I know (I certainly hadn't removed
it yet) and I got a notification of a reply to that message - which I didn't
have a chance to read.

I intended to request deletion eventually, of all messages *except* the last
in the thread, but I needed to be sure there was no reply to my post first.

Could you not have asked those involved in the thread first?

--sannse


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mediation board

body:
Today, a whole thread was deleted from the mediation board.

This was the thread holding the mediation between Bird and Sannse.

The mediation was over, and both of them had deleted their messages,
though it seems that a last message was posted by Bird, that Sannse has
not seen.

Sannse intended to ask for this thread to be deleted, however she never
had the chance, when she came back today, the thread was gone.

We would like to know who deleted the thread.

We would like to know as well for which reason, and from whom request
that thread was deleted.

We would also like to indicate that we would appreciate that the
mediation committee is asked its opinion before information is deleted
from the mediation board, at least that a deletion be authorized by the
participants of the thread.

We would also like that a mediator (Sannse candidate) be the owner and
the administrator of the board.

Sannse and I express our extrem displeasure of the action done.
I would like guarantees that this is not done again. I do not think we
should go on using the board if threads can be deleted without notice.

Perhaps we should have a wiki instead of a board ?


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Gnutella

body:
On Mar 17, 2004, at 15:58, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> I'm sorry if my ignorance is showing here, but I went to both
> sourceforge and gnutella.com and I still don't have any idea what
> gnutella is, other than it's a peer to peer networking protocol for
> file sharing. In other words, I can't figure out why Gnutella is
> different from Ares, the old Napster, or Bittorrent from an
> architectural point of view.

Gnutella is decentralized; it was designed in response to the classic
Napster, which could be and was shut down by suing the server runners
into oblivion. Search requests are passed from node to node to node in
a very inefficient fashion, but once a file is out there, the original
seeder need not remain on the network. Nodes generally provide many
files for peering (often all they have ever downloaded). The system was
designed for smallish files (up to several megabytes).

BitTorrent is very centralized; it was designed for legitimate
distribution of large files to many simultaneous downloaders, using
peer-to-peer transfers simply as a way to save bandwidth for the
central server. There is no searching mechanism; you must connect to
the particular tracker server managing the torrent for the file you
want and ask for it specifically. If the tracker goes offline,
everything fails. Nodes only make available for peered access the files
they are in progress downloading or have very recently downloaded (and
not yet closed the window on). The system was designed for large files
(tens, hundreds, or thousands of megabytes), and fetches pieces of a
file from multiple different peers simultaneously if possible.

Don't know anything about Ares.

> Would someone who is familiar with both Gnutella and Bittorrent tell
> me why using Bittorrent for such a project would be stupid? It would
> certainly use less of Wikipedia's already strained bandwidth.

The overhead of torrenting individual articles or PDF booklets on
particular subjects from Wikipedia would likely far outweigh simple
HTTP, particularly since it's generally unlikely that many people would
be downloading the same (small) file (out of many thousands available)
simultaneously.

Hypothetically it might be useful for distributing large bulk dumps
(such as the current database dumps), if and only if more than one
person at a time is likely to be downloading them.

Bandwidth really isn't a problem for Wikipedia; we use a fair amount of
it (compared to Joe Bob's homepage, not compared to Yahoo) but it's not
"strained".

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Jens Frank

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/includes Parser.php, 1.25,
	1.26

body:
Hello Ashar,

does it make sense to assign a class to an anchor? Classes only make
sense for links, or do I miss something?

	Regards,

		jens

On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:25:12PM +0000, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Update of /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes
> In directory sc8-pr-cvs1.sourceforge.net:/tmp/cvs-serv10480/includes
>
> Modified Files:
> 	Parser.php
> Log Message:
> Fix source forge bug 803693
>
> When a title is given in a == == headline, the html was incorectly generated as:
> link
>
> It now generates:
>
> link
>
> Index: Parser.php
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/Parser.php,v
> retrieving revision 1.25
> retrieving revision 1.26
> diff -C2 -d -r1.25 -r1.26
> *** Parser.php	16 Mar 2004 03:58:36 -0000	1.25
> --- Parser.php	16 Mar 2004 14:25:09 -0000	1.26
> ***************
> *** 1290,1300 ****
>   			}
>
> - 			// Put it all together
>
> ! 			$head[$c].="<h".$level.$matches[2][$c]
> ! 			 .""
> ! 			 .$headline
> ! 			 .""
> ! 			 ."</h".$level.">";
>
>   			// Add the edit section link
> --- 1290,1309 ----
>   			}
>
>
> ! 			// the headline might have a link
> ! 			if(preg_match("/(.*) ! 			{
> ! 				// if so give an anchor name to the already existent link
> ! 				$headline = $headlinematches[1]
> ! 				            ." ! 			} else {
> ! 				// else create an anchor link for the headline
> ! 				$headline = ""
> ! 				            .$headline
> ! 				            ."";
> ! 			}
> !
> ! 			// give headline the correct <h#> tag
> ! 			$head[$c].="<h".$level.$matches[2][$c] .$headline."</h".$level.">";
>
>   			// Add the edit section link
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-CVS mailing list
> MediaWiki-CVS at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-cvs
>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Mediation board

body:
sannse-
> My last message was still there as far as I know (I certainly hadn't removed
> it yet) and I got a notification of a reply to that message - which I didn't
> have a chance to read.

I didn't see anything of value. Next time, you can delete it yourself -
you are now a moderator.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] XML Feed

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> To me, making available an XML feed in a variety of formats is a
> sensible thing to do.  One good candidate format would be RDF/RSS.

An extended version of the XML export page would be nice as well. If we
(one day, in a galaxy far, far away;-) distribute a CD/DVD version, it
would be nice to
* either check a page for changes compared to the CD version /if you're
online/ so it will display the latest version of a page
* or (slowly) upgrade your hard disk version to the online one (like
auto-rsync).

So we'd have an XML page that returns which pages have changed since XX,
or which of [list of titles] have changes since then, and of course the
current XML export.

Magnus


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Mediation board

body:
Sannse mentions she only feels "a slight grump"

Which when you know her and know me, basically means we probably feel
the same on the current topic :-)

> Sannse and I express our extrem displeasure of the action done.
> I would like guarantees that this is not done again. I do not think we
> should go on using the board if threads can be deleted without notice.


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] [[New Haven, Connecticut]]

body:
[[User:Nunh-huh]] insists on including three pizza places and a restaurant on the New Haven page.  I've been trying to delete them but he won't let me.  When I suggested that if he's going to list them he should add several others, he said that I needed to add them if I thought they should be included.  Isn't it POV to list only a very few of the hundreds of stores in a city's list?  Isn't this free advertising?

RickK

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Mediation board

body:
Anthere-

> The fact you named Sannse moderator only partly solve the issue.

I deleted a bunch of useless messages. If you think that's something that
"needs to be reported" or "needs to be discussed", well, there's a whole
message board where you can discuss things like that. Don't expect me to
participate, though. As for your insinuation that I intentionally did not
report the desysopping of 168 for violation of Wikipedia policy, I will
not even dignify that with a response. Your behavior here is increasingly
bordering on trolling.

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] no-cache header?

body:
On Mar 17, 2004, at 19:52, Timwi wrote:
> it seems that Wikipedia's HTTP response contains this header:
>
> Cache-Control: private, s-maxage=0, max-age=0, must-revalidate
>
> If I understand this right, this means that the page must not be
> cached by the browser.

Nope. That means that if you come back to the page, the browser must
_check if it's changed_.

The second request will include an "If-Modified-Since" header including
the modification date specified when the page was first visited. Either
the squid cache or the wiki itself will compare this date to its
knowledge of the state of the wiki, and if the page has not changed,
sends a "304 Not Modified" response and the browser will show its
cached copy.

If and only if the page _has_ changed, then the squid sends the more
recent locally cached version or the wiki parses, renders, and outputs
a new version.

This is necessary to, for instance, see the new version of a page after
you've edited it.

> Has this header always been there? Or has it been added recently? If
> so, can it be removed again? :)

Been there for a long, long time.

> The reason I'm bringing this up is that I've noticed that Firefox has
> suddenly started reloading all pages whenever I use the "Back"
> function. It didn't use to do that until today. Hence, I suppose the
> header wasn't there before.

Did you load Internet Explorer by mistake? It's known to have this
misbehavior (re-requesting the page on back/forward button press as
well as actual link navigation).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Mediation board

body:
Could you please resign from your position of administrator of this
board and transfert admin duties to Sannse please ?

If not, could we have a new board with one of us administrator please ?

Ant

Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Anthere-
>
>>Today, a whole thread was deleted from the mediation board.
>
>
> Yes. The thread consisted exclusively of
>
> "yesterday"
> "deleted"
> "yesterday"
> "deleted"
> "yesterday"
> "deleted"
>
> As there was no information contained in this thread, I removed it, like I
> would instant-delete an article containing nothing but "oajsdpofjasdf".
> And no, these messages don't have a history - once you edit it, the old
> text is gone.
>
> Regards,
> Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Mediation board

body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> sannse-
>
>>My last message was still there as far as I know (I certainly hadn't removed
>>it yet) and I got a notification of a reply to that message - which I didn't
>>have a chance to read.
>
>
> I didn't see anything of value. Next time, you can delete it yourself -
> you are now a moderator.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

The fact you named Sannse moderator only partly solve the issue.

You are not a mediator. You deleted a thread without even asking to
mediators or to those involved in the discussion what they thought, and
without checking that all those involved in the discussion had read all
messages adressed to them. The fact there was nothing of value is only
an interpretation of yourself.

Not only did you delete the thread without request from us, not only did
you do it without asking us previously, but just as in 168 unilateral
unsysoping, you again *forgot* to tell us what you did.

Unlike 168 unsysoping, deletion is not reversible.

I would like to ask again that you transfer adminiship of the forum to
someone else; If you think it should be done by a developer, please
transfert it to Brion or Tim. I do not think it will be very heavy on them.

Thank you


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: XML Feed

body:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:57:37 -0800, Jimmy Wales wrote:
<snip>
> I mean, I'm not too keen on random individuals downloading a massive
> file every day just to update some internal search engine on their
> home machine or whatever, although if the load is small, it does no
> harm.
<snip>

Maybe having "patch dump" will save some bandwith ? Like getting only
articles that changed since the last dump and the dump before ? This will
allow people to just get the datas they haven't got already.

--
Ashar Voultoiz
http://fr.wikipedia.org/Utilisateur:Hashar
do not send mail to listme at listme.dsbl.org


from_name: Dan Miller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Agree w/ Ec

body:
> I can support something like the three revert
> concept as a guideline,
> but certainly not as a rule, and even less as an
> enforceable rule.  We
> need to begin trusting users again.  That was a key
> factor in
> Wikipedia's growth.   If Wik or some other
> identified person is a
> persistent problem user then let's deal with it
> without inventing more
> new rules to plague the average user.  The bad
> characters will more
> likely than not be multiply offensive, and decisons
> can be based on
> weighing a variety of factors rather than literal
> rules.
>
> Once an understanding has been reached, someone with
> the authority needs
> to accept the responsibilities for following
> through.
>
> Ec

I hate to say it but...me too.

Meelar

=====
"If the Democratic policies had been pursued over the last two or three years, the kind of tax increases that both Kerry and [Sen. John] Edwards [D-N.C.] have talked about, we would not have had the kind of job growth we've had."

-- Vice President Cheney, in an MSNBC interview March 2, lending his perspective to the economy's loss of 2.2 million jobs over three years.

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from_name: John C. Penta

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Mediation board

body:
Blah blah blah, blah blah blah...

Uh, can the mediation groupies take this elsewhere and leave this list for more general stuff?