subject:
[Foundation-l] Transwiki wars, precedence,
	and the fate of user-compiled lists

body:
Robert Scott Horning wrote:

> Brian wrote:
>
>> Short version: There is a huge battle going on in which VFDers on WP,
>> WS, and Commons are pushing user-compiled lists from one project to
>> another. In each case, they are saying the lists belong on one of the
>> other 3 projects. Almost nobody is saying that these lists don't
>> belong anywhere, but nobody can decide on where they belong. It also
>> doesn't help that nobody on one project accepts the outcome of
>> another project's VFD (an outcome which may have said to transwiki to
>> this project) as a reason to keep it on this project.
>
> *snip*
>
>> Meanwhile, on Wikipedia, an Undelete request was instituted (by
>> myself, I think) for the General Slocum list, but the majority are
>> saying that it doesn't belong on Wikipedia, but on Commons or
>> Wikisource.
>>
>> Summary: As Stevertigo said:  "Theres no sense in people batting this
>> thing about. Clearly it belongs at source or [WP]... There needs to
>> be some policy against batting things around."
>
> As a regular at Wikibooks, we've battled with this issue a little bit
> ourselves in regards to lists, but it has been mainly to push them
> back to Wikipedia.  There has been some problems with Wikipedia
> articles coming to Wikibooks as a fork (I've already thrown my $0.02
> on that issue) and in some cases throwing the articles back to
> Wikipedia. Sometimes a book module gets started that really should be
> a Wikipedia article, and that does get transwikied.
>
> In general the distinctions between each of the projects is not as
> clearly defined as it should be, particularly in the case of new ideas
> for content and where it should be placed.  Wikibooks in particular
> seems to be a dumping ground from Meta when nobody can think of a
> place to put a project idea (and the idea originator doesn't want to
> go to Wikicities).  Projects like Wikijunior only add to this mess
> (not that I'm opposed to Wikijunior being a part of Wikibooks at the
> moment). Wikipedia is getting so large now (and this is a good thing)
> that it is attracting a number of people with some very original ideas
> (like the lists) which don't seem to fit current structures.
>
> The question I have is how do you resolve these kind of issues between
> Wikimedia projects?  Embassies might be an option, but those were
> mainly designed around the idea of acting between languages where
> content disputes are much more easily dealt with.  Should the scope of
> them be broadened?  How do you keep Wikipedia from overwhelming the
> much smaller sister projects in these conflict resolutions?  I don't
> think every issue like this should be put on Foundation-l for
> resolution. (but thanks for bringing up the discussion, Brian)

To me this is something that clearly should stay on Wikipedia in the
absence of a functioning WikiMemorial project.

The functioning of the Transwiki process has never been premised on the
idea that an article would be accepted in its proposed new home.  This
is why these are put into a "Transwiki:" pseudo-namespace.  It appears
that in February, when WP transferred this to Wikisource the use of
"Transwiki" was ignored completely, and the appearance was given that it
was newly given to WS by an anonymous IP number who has otherwise made
no contributions to Wikisource.  The timing on this debate has been
strange.  The rather cursory original vote of the dedicated VFDers on WP
and the transfer took place in February.  I finally tracked down the
even more detailed undeletion as having happened in April, but it is
only appearing here for advice.

I think that the whole thing should be put back on WP and the deletion
process started up again from scratch if people still want it deleted.
When that happens Wikisource, Wikicommons and this list should all be
advised so that all interested persons can vote.

In more general terms we might consider adapting a practice from the US
political system when the House and Senate to not agree.  Some kind of
conference committee could be set up to make a binding decision.  This
could be used in situations where the fundamental question is "Where
does this article belong?",

Ec


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Ray Saintonge


list: foundation-l

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: Transwiki wars, precedence,	and the fate of
	user-compiled lists

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Brian a ?crit:
>
>> First off, my credentials:
>>
>> [[en:User:Brian0918]]
>> Administrator
>> 11,754 edits
>>
>> Short version: There is a huge battle going on in which VFDers on WP,
>> WS, and Commons are pushing user-compiled lists from one project to
>> another. In each case, they are saying the lists belong on one of the
>> other 3 projects. Almost nobody is saying that these lists don't
>> belong anywhere, but nobody can decide on where they belong. It also
>> doesn't help that nobody on one project accepts the outcome of
>> another project's VFD (an outcome which may have said to transwiki to
>> this project) as a reason to keep it on this project.
>
> This is an important point you raise.
> From another perspective, we also increasingly are confronted to
> situation of editors jumping from one project to another, or one
> language to another, while they are banned on the first and not (yet
> ?) on the second. Some editors will then reject civil rights to this
> editor (such as forbidding to an editor banned on the english
> wikipedia to vote on meta), while others consider he should be given a
> chance as blocking rules are different from one project to the next
> (for example, the german wikipedia seems to block or unsysop editors
> much more easily than the french wikipedia). There is an ongoing issue
> right now with an editor of the dutch and english projects.
>
> In short, we increasingly are confronted to this inter-projects
> relationships, relying in local rules... as many issues fall in a sort
> of grey area. What you report kinda of fall in the same area.
>
> Do you think a sort of international committee, made of editors from
> different projects and different languages could make these decisions
> on behalf of all editors in these sorts of situation, per request of
> local communities. Right now, it mostly ends up by request to Jimbo,
> Angela and myself... and I'd say it is not the best solution. The only
> good point of this solution is that usually our decision is well
> accepted by (relieved) editors.
>
> So, it would be interesting to see whether a sort of international
> court would be acceptable to solve these kind of issues.
>
> If so, how could it be organised ? How would it get members ?
> (nomination, elections...) On which rules would it work ?

There is a big difference between the question of where an article
belongs, and project shopping problem editors.  When the question
involves the location of an article we still need to start with a
presumption of good faith, and a hope that a consensus can be found for
the solution.

With problem editors the good faith has already been put into question.

I've always felt that each project should have the maximum possible
autonomy within a limited set of broadly applicable rules.. For these
the international committee (or court) could work, but we need to be
clear about its role and when its use ould be relevant.  It would
certainly help with those who, after being banished from one project go
do their mayhem on another.  It could also act as an appeal tribunal for
small wikis, where a dominant leader goes too far in the exercise of his
sweeping powers.  If he bans someone for more than 24 hours he should
notify that person of his right of appeal.

Ec


from_name: Zachary Harden

subject: [Foundation-l] document_all

body:
Dear Jimbo and Brion,

Where can we read this document?

Regards,

Zachary Harden, Eagle Scout (BSA)

>From: Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>
>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] document_all
>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:42:39 +0200
>
>jwales at wikia.com wrote:
>>Please read the important document.
>
>...and that's why the mailing list strips attachments. :)
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Foundation-l] document_all


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Steven Hilton

subject: [Wikitech-l] REL1_5 branched

body:
On 8/1/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> I've created a REL1_5 branch now; the release will come on that and
> we'll be running REL1_5 on the servers for now.
>
> This will allow some somewhat more experimental stuff to go on HEAD.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Does that mean 1.5 Final is imminent?

--
Steven Hilton <mshiltonj at gmail.com>
<http://mshiltonj.com/>


list: wikien-l

from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Abuse of powers by admins as per usual: Tony Sidaway

body:
A. Nony Mouse (mousyme at gmail.com) [050801 08:42]:

> We have a situation.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Existentializer.2C_suspected_sock_of_Enviroknot

Not only are you and Existentializer Enviroknot, it was you both times on
IRC today. Either that or your bad luck in DHCP assignments is truly
remarkable and suggests you should choose Vegas over Houston.

(I would not normally have let the preceding email through, but it did need
the above stated. We can't edit emails in the queue, only accept, reject or
discard them.)

- d.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: YurikBot

body:
Angela a ?crit:
> On 7/31/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>You mean a bureaucrat can actually anytime directly take any existing
>>account, move it to another account, and reattribute it to anyone else ?
>
> [...]
>
>
>>Was each project informed on this ?
>
>
> Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikibooks, and Wikinews were informed of it.
> Wikiquote and Wikisource don't have mailing lists, and I forgot about
> the Commons (sorry). The help pages about changing username were
> updated on meta, so hopefully even those not on mailing lists would
> have some knowledge about the feature. This is going on the assumption
> that members of those lists will translate the information there are
> disseminate that within their own language projects.
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-July/040905.html
>
>
>>Do you know if some projects
>>developped rules about such a feature use ?
>
>
> I'm not aware of any such rules. On the English Wikipedia, it's
> currently a judgement call of the few bureaucrats who are doing this
> task. Until a problem arises, there isn't much call for a policy,
> which is probably why the Steward policies still had the "draft" tag
> on them until March of this year. :)
>
> Angela.

Hmmm, it is good to know projects were informed.
Though I was aware it was possible for bureaucrat to rename accounts, I
thought the old account was not freed... I am not sure everyone
realised. Well, if everyone is happy with this... good.

Concerning the CheckUser feature, when I tried to use it, I could not.
Is it me not understanding how it works, or is it possibly not working
right now ?

In any cases, should not we update entirely this portion of the privacy
policy
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Privacy_policy#Policy_on_release_of_data_derived_from_page_logs)
to stick to new features and practices ?
Or update practices to stick to policies ?

ant


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] adding special pages

body:
edward molasses wrote:
> I tried putting BoardVote.php
> (http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia/extensions/BoardVote/BoardVote.php?rev=1.3&only_with_tag=MAIN&view=markup)
> in the extensions directory of my MediaWiki installation, but it still did
> not show up in my Wiki's list of special pages.
>
> Could anyone help me find what I'm doing wrong? Any help would be much
> appreciated!

Did you include it from LocalSettings.php?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050801/f5b19d96/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Dariusz Siedlecki

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rename request

body:
Please change the following two usernames on nl.wiktionary:

tsca -> Tsca
tsca.bot -> Tsca.bot

"after the changes to the software I can no longer log in, as my
usernames start with lowercase letters. The local bureaucrat (Gerard)
is unable to change my usernames to uppercase. Hopefully someone here
can help. Thank you."

The stewards tool isn't case sensetive, so we can't do it ourselves.

--
Best regards,
Dariusz "Datrio" Siedlecki


list: textbook-l

from_name: kelvSYC

subject: [Textbook-l] General News about Wikibooks

body:
>> As far as changing
>> policies, it is also an effort to protect and unprotect (or at least
>> edit from an admin capacity) the actual policy pages of Wikibooks.
>>
>
> Why do the policy pages need to be protected?

Wikibooks policy pages (as well as Wikiversity pages) was repeatedly
victims to page move vandal attacks.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Transwiki wars, precedence,
	and the fate of user-compiled lists

body:
Anthere,

I think it would help Admins at en.wikipedia if we knew which of our
contributors have been blocked from contributing to other Wikimedia
projects - such as the French or German encyclopedias.

It's so easy to be a charming and helpful contributor that I am no
longer worried about potential "civil rights violations". Disruptive
users should not be tolerated.

If anyone wants to coach a clueless newbie, that's their choice. I've
helped user:Gabrielsimon and he seems to have learned enough to avoid
being blocked while I was on vacation last week. But ordinarily, if
people don't want to follow rules on being civil or avoiding bias, the
project is MUCH better off without them.

This is not the world's largest blog. It's a project to create an
encyclopedia. Serious, dedicated people are needed here. Troublemakers
should be shown the door - and quickly.

Oncle Edmond


from_name: edward molasses

subject: [Wikitech-l] adding special pages

body:
Thank you, I didn't include it in LocalSettings.php, it works now! Sorry, I
suppose this was a bit of a silly mistake. Thank you for the help.

Andrew.

On Monday 01 August 2005 12:50 am, Brion Vibber wrote:
> edward molasses wrote:
> > I tried putting BoardVote.php
> > (http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia/extensions/BoardVote/Boa
> >rdVote.php?rev=1.3&only_with_tag=MAIN&view=markup) in the extensions
> > directory of my MediaWiki installation, but it still did not show up in
> > my Wiki's list of special pages.
> >
> > Could anyone help me find what I'm doing wrong? Any help would be much
> > appreciated!
>
> Did you include it from LocalSettings.php?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Jim Breen

body:
[Gerard Meijssen ([Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions) writes:]
>> For the Ultimate Wiktionary I have documented some of the design
>> criteria. It can be found here:
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage
>> The Data design can be found here:
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design

I have added some comments to the Discussion pages of those two.

>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.

Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.

>> This
>> means that all incorrect spelling will be amended or deleted. As
>> Ultimate Wiktionary is a database, it does not cater for things like
>> redirects. I urge you to have a look at both the design criteria and the
>> design itself because this is the time when it is relatively easy to
>> make changes. Once Erik starts coding the UW database, having finished
>> Wikidata and the GEMET implementation, the moment has passed us by.

Indeed.

Jim

--
Jim Breen                                http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,               Tel: +61 3 9905 9554
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia                  Fax: +61 3 9905 5146
(Monash Provider No. 00008C)                ???????@??????


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: document_all

body:
"Robin Shannon" <robin.shannon at gmail.com>
wrote in message news:623d73380508010010700aafe2 at mail.gmail.com...
On 8/1/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>
wrote:
> > ...and that's why the mailing list strips attachments. :)
> >
> > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> And yet you manage to have one in your sig.
> /me smells something fishy.  :)

Just in case this is misunderstood by someone who misses the smiley, or
deliberately turned into troll-food, the "attachment" associated with
Brion's messages in some clients is how his PGP signature is interpreted. It
is an artefact which only appears if your client cannot interpret it
directly. Outlook Express, for example, shows almost all of Brion's messages
as *two* attachments, one "text file" with the actual message and one ".asc
file" with the signature.

It's very annoying for me running OE because I have to exert extra effort to
read Brion's messages, which are usually pretty helpful and informative. I
do understand that other clients probably do not have this problem but since
this is not my machine I don't have the choice.

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: document_all


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] VFD goes completely pathological

body:
--- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Poor, Edmund W (Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com) [050802 05:39]:
>
> > I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
> > if I don't!!
>
>
> Holy crap, he did.
>
>   19:43, 1 August 2005 Ed Poor deleted "Wikipedia:Votes for deletion" (This
>   page does not work - see David Gerard's wikien-l post)

Way to go Ed!

/mav runs and hides

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: David

body:
And he did, too.

-[[User:Humblefool]]

Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:

>Dude, You got cohones! Maybe a little more discussion than two emails
>is needed though?
>
>On 8/1/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I agree with David's contention that VFD in Very F'ing Destructive.
>>
>>How about replacing it with a category tag convention? Simply place a
>>[[category:delete]] tag on an article, and explain your reasoning on the
>>article's talk page?
>>
>>(We could make sub-categories like:
>>* [[category:delete-hopeless-stub]]
>>* [[category:delete-non-notable-person]], etc.
>>
>>I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
>>if I don't!!
>>
>>Impatiently,
>>
>>Uncle Ed
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


from_name: Tor Ville

subject: [WikiEN-l] block open proxies only for non-logged-in users please

body:
Your policy of indiscriminate blocking of edits from
IP addresses of the TOR anonymous network is a serious
violation of individual privacy. At the moment you
generate a "User is blocked" page as tor is classified
as "open proxy".
OK, I understand that you want to prevent abuse from
open proxies when the use is not logged in, but WHY
BLOCK LOGGED IN USERS who use the Tor network only
because they don't want everyone (and any government
agencies) to be able to track what they are personally
interested in.

Please block only users who are not logged in from
open proxies. Abuse from logged in users can be dealt
with by blocking the user rather than the IP of the
open proxy. Please don't be indiscriminate, please
don't block innocent users who prefer privacy.

This is very important. I realized I cannot edit
Wikipedia any more if anyone can check everything I am
interested in. Thanks!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: DaB.

subject: [Foundation-l] document_all

body:
Hello,
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 02:42 +0000, Zachary Harden wrote:
> Dear Jimbo and Brion,
>
> Where can we read this document?

I hope, nowhere. I guest it's a kind of eMail-Virus.

>
> Regards,
>
> Zachary Harden, Eagle Scout (BSA)

Mit freundlichen Gr?ssen
DaB. (Daniel Baur)


subject: [Foundation-l] document_all


body:
> We have a situation.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_notic
eboard/Incidents#Existentializer.2C_suspected_sock_of_E> nviroknot
>
> As far as I can tell, this is pure bullshit. Tony Sidaway has
> taken a cherry-picked list of edits out of a long list, and
> is using them to "prove" a point which cannot be made.
>
> Analysis of Tony Sidaway's "Proof":

[snip]

I don't think this kind of thing is an appropriate topic for the mailing
list. Any user whose account has been improperly blocked can discuss the
block on their talk page. That's what Tim Starling's new feature is
specifically for.

In a parallel vein, if complaints such as this are only arguing about
whether "rules were followed properly" in blocking their account, then
it is doubly off-topic. All such complaints should include a list of
contributions the user plans to make to the encyclopedia.

The idea that Anyone Has A Right To Edit is not true, and has never been
true. Rather, it is,

* "Editing Wikipedia is a privilege, not a right."

We assume good faith, but if an Administrator feels you have violated
policy, the burden falls on you to prove otherwise.

Ed Poor
"Bureaucrat"


body:
I've created a small page to attempt to discuss the varying proposals
for reforming the deletion process at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_reform .  Please expand
with ideas, and discuss them on eh talk page.  I know it's small right
now, but I can't think of too many alternative proposals right now.

Just don't delete VfD again, Ed.  That doesn't exactly move anything
forward.

-[[humblefool]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] REL1_5 branched

body:
I've created a REL1_5 branch now; the release will come on that and
we'll be running REL1_5 on the servers for now.

This will allow some somewhat more experimental stuff to go on HEAD.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050801/317b6311/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikitech-l] REL1_5 branched

body:
Steven Hilton wrote:
> Does that mean 1.5 Final is imminent?

It'll be out when it's out.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050801/60163d77/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Theo Clarke

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Worrying trends

body:
I regret that I must cease participation in this discussion because it has become a platform for abuse of specific individuals.  This cessation is probably just as well, since the lack of participation by anyone except A. Nony Mouse and myself suggests that only the two of us think the proposal worthy of discussion.

Theo


from_name: Kelly Martin

body:
On 8/1/05, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dude, You got cohones! Maybe a little more discussion than two emails
> is needed though?

This has been discussed to death for months already.  Getting rid of
VFD is so far overdue that it's almost early.

Kelly


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [Wikitech-l] You have 88.5 pages on your watchlist

body:
Edward Z. Yang wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>I was intriuged to have recieved this message on my Watchlist:
>
>"You have 88.5 pages on your watchlist (not including talk pages)"
>
>Can someone tell me how this is possible?
>
The 0.5 is from a stub.

:-) :-)

Stan


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

body:
Prove your point, and give us it. If he bans you for no reason I'll be happy
to unban you. But knowing him, he won't.

Right now your lack of a name meaning anything is making a lot of people
think "Troll".
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Nony Mouse" <mousyme at gmail.com>
To: "Phroziac" <phroziac at gmail.com>; "English Wikipedia"
<wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Abuse of powers by admins as per usual: Tony Sidaway

Absolutely nothing whatsoever. It's symbolic of the fact that I
daren't give my real name, knowing the inevitable things David Gerard
would do to it if he knew it.

A. Nony Mouse

On 7/31/05, Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just wondering, what's troll like about A Nony Mouse? I didn't thing
> anything of the name, but i do understand what it means now :)
>
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Robert Scott Horning

body:
kelvSYC wrote:

>>> As far as changing
>>> policies, it is also an effort to protect and unprotect (or at least
>>> edit from an admin capacity) the actual policy pages of Wikibooks.
>>
>> Why do the policy pages need to be protected?
>
>
> Wikibooks policy pages (as well as Wikiversity pages) was repeatedly
> victims to page move vandal attacks.
>
Still are, BTW.  They keep getting creative.  The best one I recently
saw was the list of vandalized pages being moved and renamed.  They seem
to be daily attacks by the same person/people right now.

--
Robert Scott Horning


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: bit of tricky copyright question

body:
"Jtkiefer" <jtkiefer at wordzen.net> wrote in
message news:42EC9EB5.9080309 at wordzen.net...
[snip]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Darkwiki.jpg.

It's very pretty, but you've missed the shadowy hit at the back. Just above
the "omega" piece there should be a glimpse of the other side of the sphere,
or else it looks distinctly odd.

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


body:
I agree with David's contention that VFD in Very F'ing Destructive.

How about replacing it with a category tag convention? Simply place a
[[category:delete]] tag on an article, and explain your reasoning on the
article's talk page?

(We could make sub-categories like:
* [[category:delete-hopeless-stub]]
* [[category:delete-non-notable-person]], etc.

I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
if I don't!!

Impatiently,

Uncle Ed


from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [WikiEN-l] Technical question

body:
On 8/1/05, Zachary Harden <zscout370 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am having a problem. Everytime I want to edit, I get this error message:
> "Error in numRows(): Can't execute the query because you have a conflicting
> read lock." A number was given to me: 10.0.0.102. I am not sure if that is
> an IP address or not.
>
> Regards,
>
> Zachary Harden, Eagle Scout (BSA)
> User:Zscout370
>
>

I'm getting that intermittently too, so it's not just you

Cormac
en:User:Cormaggio


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>Poor, Edmund W (Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com) [050802 05:39]:
>
>
>>I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
>>if I don't!!
>>
>>
>Holy crap, he did.
>
>  19:43, 1 August 2005 Ed Poor deleted "Wikipedia:Votes for deletion" (This
>  page does not work - see David Gerard's wikien-l post)
>
>I must write less forcefully, evidently ... ah, that's no fun. HEAR MY
>WORDS AND COWER!
>
>In the meantime, I'll just hide under the desk until the fallout clears.
>Duck and cover!
>
>
Somebody should award Ed a barnstar for outstanding courage.

Ec


from_name: Thijs van Domburg

subject: [WikiEN-l] [mail@thijsvandomburg.nl: Sesame Street]

body:
Dear mr Wales and mr Larsen,

this is the fourth time I have ti mail you, it's driving me crazy. I don't want my name on Wikipedia, just because I mailed you once. I demand, and now forever I hope, that you remove these articles.

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015755.html

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015760.html

greetings

Thijs van Domburg


body:
Kat Walsh wrote:

>>>>I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
>>>>if I don't!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Holy crap, he did.
>>>
>>>
>Ed claims to have intended to leave a redirect there, which would have
>improved matters. I could even see changing the page to be a
>placeholder that mentions operation being suspended while discussion
>proceeds. But it was a gaping hole; an off-putting and confusing one,
>and one without a clear action to follow in its absence.
>
>I love Ignore All Rules as much as anyone (frankly, if it were
>abolished, I think I'd leave the project). But, well, if we're going
>to get rid of VfD, we should at least take a bit of time to set up the
>transition, no? And perhaps get a *little* more confirmation than one
>mailing list post, which even most regulars haven't read?
>
>(To quote my idol Douglas Adams here: "OK, so ten out of ten for
>style, but minus several million for good thinking, yeah?")
>
>
Building intergalactic highways is bound to create minor collateral damage.

I'm sure that none of us ever believed that Ed's horoic effort would be
allowed to stand.  But sometimes, to get people's attention you need to
whack them between the eyes with a 2 x 4.

Ec


from_name: Sean Barrett

body:
David Gerard stated for the record:

> Poor, Edmund W (Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com) [050802 05:39]:
>
>>I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
>>if I don't!!
>
> Holy crap, he did.
>
>   19:43, 1 August 2005 Ed Poor deleted "Wikipedia:Votes for deletion" (This
>   page does not work - see David Gerard's wikien-l post)

If only RickK were here to see this day....

--
  Sean Barrett     | They accused us of suppressing freedom of
  sean at epoptic.com | expression. This was a lie and we could not let
                   | them publish it. --Nelba Blandon, Nicaraguan
                   | Interior Ministry, Director of Censorship


from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: document_all

body:
On 8/1/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> ...and that's why the mailing list strips attachments. :)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

And yet you manage to have one in your sig.
/me smells something fishy.  :)

--
hit me: <robin.shannon.id.au>
jab me: <robin.shannon at jabber.org.au>

upgrade to ubuntu linux: <http://www.spreadubuntu.org/>


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: document_all


from_name: Angela

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Worrying trends

body:
On 8/1/05, Alphax wrote:
> Since you just broke a thread, I have no idea which proposal you are
> talking about...

I'm guessing this one :
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-July/026784.html
(RfA should contain no hustings, no explanations of votes, and
requested changes instead of oppose votes).

Angela.


from_name: Edward Z. Yang

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I was intriuged to have recieved this message on my Watchlist:

"You have 88.5 pages on your watchlist (not including talk pages)"

Can someone tell me how this is possible?

- --
 Edward Z. Yang      Personal: edwardzyang at thewritingpot.com
 SN:Ambush Commander Website: http://www.thewritingpot.com/
 GPGKey:0x869C48DA   http://www.thewritingpot.com/gpgpubkey.asc
 3FA8 E9A9 7385 B691 A6FC B3CB A933 BE7D 869C 48DA
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFC7pmzqTO+fYacSNoRApidAKCH0xdTR+tdr/9N6/rkefD+P0iUqQCaAg4R
OBnaaxu3CxjfGDVJ+snqyb0=
=hNQb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Bryan Derksen

body:
David wrote:

> I've created a small page to attempt to discuss the varying proposals
> for reforming the deletion process at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_reform .  Please
> expand with ideas, and discuss them on eh talk page.  I know it's
> small right now, but I can't think of too many alternative proposals
> right now.
>
> Just don't delete VfD again, Ed.  That doesn't exactly move anything
> forward.

I dunno, it got [[Wikipedia:Deletion reform]] created. :)


from_name: Kat Walsh

body:
On 8/1/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> >> I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
> >> if I don't!!
> >
> > Holy crap, he did.
>
> Well, I never liked it anyway :)
>
> It's always seemed to me like an awkard kludge,
> out of sync with the general wiki process.
>
> Regards,
> Haukur

That it may be... it certainly has its problems, at least. When I
heard it was deleted, my first reaction was "hey, good show!" And if
we were all Wiki addicts who'd been around a bit it could proceed from
there just like that, and take discussion on while VfD was suspended
leaving a gaping hole in its place.

But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly
confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many
newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.

Ed claims to have intended to leave a redirect there, which would have
improved matters. I could even see changing the page to be a
placeholder that mentions operation being suspended while discussion
proceeds. But it was a gaping hole; an off-putting and confusing one,
and one without a clear action to follow in its absence.

I love Ignore All Rules as much as anyone (frankly, if it were
abolished, I think I'd leave the project). But, well, if we're going
to get rid of VfD, we should at least take a bit of time to set up the
transition, no? And perhaps get a *little* more confirmation than one
mailing list post, which even most regulars haven't read?

(To quote my idol Douglas Adams here: "OK, so ten out of ten for
style, but minus several million for good thinking, yeah?")

-Kat
[[User:Mindspillage]]

--
http://www.mindspillage.net *** IM: LucidWaking
"There was a point to this story, but it has temporarily
escaped the chronicler's mind."  --Douglas Adams


from_name: Phroziac

body:
Because that would allow trolls and vandals and other evil items to
make accounts using a tor, and freely evade any ban. I really don't
see why any government would care what you're doing..

On 8/1/05, Tor Ville <tor_ville at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Your policy of indiscriminate blocking of edits from
> IP addresses of the TOR anonymous network is a serious
> violation of individual privacy. At the moment you
> generate a "User is blocked" page as tor is classified
> as "open proxy".
> OK, I understand that you want to prevent abuse from
> open proxies when the use is not logged in, but WHY
> BLOCK LOGGED IN USERS who use the Tor network only
> because they don't want everyone (and any government
> agencies) to be able to track what they are personally
> interested in.
>
> Please block only users who are not logged in from
> open proxies. Abuse from logged in users can be dealt
> with by blocking the user rather than the IP of the
> open proxy. Please don't be indiscriminate, please
> don't block innocent users who prefer privacy.
>
> This is very important. I realized I cannot edit
> Wikipedia any more if anyone can check everything I am
> interested in. Thanks!
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


body:
Those aren't wikipedia, they are archives of messages sent to a
mailing list for wikipedia. And wouldn't a private email have been
better, or maybe a phone call? I can understand international rates
might be insane though!

On 8/1/05, Thijs van Domburg <mail at thijsvandomburg.nl> wrote:
> Dear mr Wales and mr Larsen,
>
> this is the fourth time I have ti mail you, it's driving me crazy. I don't want my name on Wikipedia, just because I mailed you once. I demand, and now forever I hope, that you remove these articles.
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015755.html
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015760.html
>
> greetings
>
> Thijs van Domburg
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Newbies "stumbling" across VfD

body:
> But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly
> confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many
> newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.

I don't know about that.

I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to
remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or
even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.

I mean, it really takes a lot of... something... to create an
encyclopedia page about yourself in the first place. And it takes a
lot more of that to do it when it says right above the editing box
that you shouldn't.

The self-promoters, the original researches, and the POV warriors
"stumble" across VfD. Good-faith contributors with even a faint idea
of what an "encyclopedia" can retain their innocence for quite a while.

--
Jean is going to be bicycling 83 miles in the Pan Mass Challenge in
August, raising money for cancer research. Her profile is at http://
www.pmc.org/mypmc/profiles.asp?Section=story&eGiftID=JS0417


body:
What? Did VFD actually get deleted? Heh, I thought that was a joke..

On 8/1/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
>
> >Poor, Edmund W (Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com) [050802 05:39]:
> >
> >
> >>I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
> >>if I don't!!
> >>
> >>
> >Holy crap, he did.
> >
> >  19:43, 1 August 2005 Ed Poor deleted "Wikipedia:Votes for deletion" (This
> >  page does not work - see David Gerard's wikien-l post)
> >
> >I must write less forcefully, evidently ... ah, that's no fun. HEAR MY
> >WORDS AND COWER!
> >
> >In the meantime, I'll just hide under the desk until the fallout clears.
> >Duck and cover!
> >
> >
> Somebody should award Ed a barnstar for outstanding courage.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


body:
I musta missed all that!

On 8/1/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Phroziac (phroziac at gmail.com) [050802 09:13]:
>
> > What? Did VFD actually get deleted? Heh, I thought that was a joke..
>
>
> It actually got deleted. That's what led to five minutes of read-only and
> Tim Starling showing up in #wikipedia ...
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: JAY JG

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Transwiki wars, precedence,
	and the fate of user-compiled list

body:
>From: "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com>
>
>If anyone wants to coach a clueless newbie, that's their choice. I've
>helped user:Gabrielsimon and he seems to have learned enough to avoid
>being blocked while I was on vacation last week.

Actually, I believe he was just blocked yet again for 3RR violation.

Jay.


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

body:
Way to go, Ed!!!

Danny


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Frisian languages

body:
Hi James,

West, East, and North Frisian are most definitely not mutually
intelligible in spoken OR written form.

North Frisian can be further divided into two main dialect groupings
with difficult mutual intelligibility, Insular North Frisian (spoken
on the North Frisian islands, like Fohr, Amrum, Sylt, Heligoland,
Wangerooge, etc) and Peninsular North Frisian (spoken on the North
Frisian mainland, in places like Boekingharde, Wiedingharde...)

I don't really know much of any of these languages, but I've tried at
an example below.

Insular North Frisian varieties:

S?l'ring (Sylt I.N.F.): ?Ljucht, ual Muun, ljucht!" skriilt H?welmann,
man di Muun wiar narigen t? sen en uk di Stiaren ek; ja wiar al
altermaal t? Ber gingen.
Ferring (Foehr I.N.F.): ?Locht, ual muun, locht!" rep Heewelmaan, man
a muun wiar nochhuaren tu sen an a st??ren uk ei; jo wiar al altermaal
tu baad gingen.
Helgoland I.N.F.: ?Lochte, ool Muun, lochte!" r?p He?welman, oawers de
Muun wear naarni tu sin'n en uk de Steern ni; dja wear al allemoal tu
Baad gingen.
??mring (Amrum I.N.F.): ?Locht, d? ual muun, locht!" rep Heewelmaan,
man a muun wiar nochhuaren tu sen an a st??ren uk ei; jo wiar al
altumaal tu baad gingen.
----

Peninsular North Frisian varieties:

Hoorning (Goesharde P.N.F.): ?Jocht, uule moune, jocht!" biilked
H??welmoon, ors e moune waas n?rngs to sch?ns ?n da steere ok ai; ja
weern al aal to beede gingen.
Wiedingharde P.N.F.: ?Ljocht, uuile moone, ljocht!" biilked
H??welmuon, m?n e moone was n??rgen to sch?ns ?n uk e steere ai; j?
w?rn al altomoale to beerd gingen.
Tideland Islands P.N.F.: ?Jaacht, uale m??ne, jaacht!" b?lked
H??welmoon, man de m??ne woas n??rngs to siinen ?n de steere uk ee; j?
weern al altomaole to beed giangen.
Mooring (B?kingharde P.N.F.): ?Jucht, ??lje moune, jucht!" biiljked
H??welmoon, ouers e moune wus nargne tu sch?ns ?n e st??re uk ai; ja
wjarn ?l ?ltum??le tu beed lim.
----

West Frisian (Westerlauwers Frysk): "Skyn, ?ld moanne, skyn!" skreaude
H?welmann, mar de moanne wie nearne te sjen, en de stjerren ek net;
hja wiene allegearre al op b?d gien.

I don't know the East Frisian (Seeltersk) translation, however. Rest
assured, it's quite different from the others.

Mark

On 01/08/05, James R. Johnson <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>             Could someone clarify for me the differences between all these
> Frisian languages that keep getting requested?  Are they still mutually
> intelligible?  Could someone provide me a few example sentences in the
> various Frisian types that could show the differences (not just spelling, I
> hope)?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> James
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


body:
On 8/1/05, Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
> > But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly
> > confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many
> > newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
>
> I don't know about that.
>
> I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to
> remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or
> even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.

Really? I found it within days -- and, no, nothing I've written has
been listed!  (Not even my composercruft -- but now I'll be quiet
before someone goes  through my contribs with a fine-tooth comb. ;-))
My first VfD edit is from 6 days after registering -- no, not voting,
but listing a page. Curiosity corrupted the Kat, I guess; I wonder how
anyone can *not* stumble across it.

> The self-promoters, the original researches, and the POV warriors
> "stumble" across VfD. Good-faith contributors with even a faint idea
> of what an "encyclopedia" can retain their innocence for quite a while.

No doubt. But I suspect a lot of the newbies who *are* good-faith
contributors don't make their newbiedom known...

(No comments from the peanut gallery about how I lost my innocence
early, thank you!)

-Kat

--
http://www.mindspillage.net *** IM: LucidWaking
"There was a point to this story, but it has temporarily
escaped the chronicler's mind."  --Douglas Adams


body:
I also stumbled across it pretty fast, and I put a page up for vfd a
few days after I joined up...

On 8/1/05, Kat Walsh <mindspillage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/1/05, Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
> > > But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly
> > > confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many
> > > newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
> >
> > I don't know about that.
> >
> > I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to
> > remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or
> > even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.
>
> Really? I found it within days -- and, no, nothing I've written has
> been listed!  (Not even my composercruft -- but now I'll be quiet
> before someone goes  through my contribs with a fine-tooth comb. ;-))
> My first VfD edit is from 6 days after registering -- no, not voting,
> but listing a page. Curiosity corrupted the Kat, I guess; I wonder how
> anyone can *not* stumble across it.
>
> > The self-promoters, the original researches, and the POV warriors
> > "stumble" across VfD. Good-faith contributors with even a faint idea
> > of what an "encyclopedia" can retain their innocence for quite a while.
>
> No doubt. But I suspect a lot of the newbies who *are* good-faith
> contributors don't make their newbiedom known...
>
> (No comments from the peanut gallery about how I lost my innocence
> early, thank you!)
>
> -Kat
>
> --
> http://www.mindspillage.net *** IM: LucidWaking
> "There was a point to this story, but it has temporarily
> escaped the chronicler's mind."  --Douglas Adams
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

body:
>> I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
>> if I don't!!
>
> Holy crap, he did.

Well, I never liked it anyway :)

It's always seemed to me like an awkard kludge,
out of sync with the general wiki process.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Jtkiefer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Technical question

body:
Zachary Harden wrote:

> I am having a problem. Everytime I want to edit, I get this error
> message: "Error in numRows(): Can't execute the query because you have
> a conflicting read lock." A number was given to me: 10.0.0.102. I am
> not sure if that is an IP address or not.
>
> Regards,
>
> Zachary Harden, Eagle Scout (BSA)
> User:Zscout370

It's been resolved now, according to Jimbo it happened because the main
database server ran out of space so everything went read only.

-Jtkiefer


from_name: Alphax

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
> Absolutely nothing whatsoever. It's symbolic of the fact that I
> daren't give my real name, knowing the inevitable things David Gerard
> would do to it if he knew it.
>
> A. Nony Mouse
>
> On 7/31/05, Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Just wondering, what's troll like about A Nony Mouse? I didn't thing
>>anything of the name, but i do understand what it means now :)
>>
>

I'm sure that there are a few of us who would be interested in your
complaints, if we knew that a real editor was involved, but dealing with
an anonymous troll makes us unwilling to look any further into it.

Should you wish to disclose your identity, email me via the Wikipedia
email system - I shall do likewise to confirm this. I will NOT reveal
your identity to anyone else, but I will certainly take your comments
more seriously.

Note that should you continue to conceal your identity, you will
continue to be treated as a troll, and I for one will ignore any further
posts.

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFC7gHu/RxM5Ph0xhMRA7GuAJ9VxKTgoHE7qSUxGrVDmQKklahSvgCfS9GG
Zue0Gver5rn6XpvVPdz0vqc=
=A61F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Dariusz Siedlecki

subject: [Foundation-l] Licensing Wikinews

body:
The international language editions of Wikinews are still in beta, but
some of the other language version have already moved one step closer
to getting out of that state - they got a license. Now... This is not
a good thing.

The Spanish, Serbian and Romanian editions are all licensed under the
GNU FDL, and the Japanese edition is licensed under CC-By. That's due
to the nature of the Japanese law, which, according to some juristic
analysis, doesn't allow to release content into the public domain.
That's not such a big problem - first of all, it might be possible to
relicense the content under CC-By-SA, or simply ask the contributors
to relicense it - since this is a new project, there aren't too many
people to ask.

But, back to the topic. The 2.5 Creative Commons licenses allow to
give the attribution NOT to every author of the article, but to the
whole project - just check 4(b) of
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/legalcode (same applies to
every other CC license).

This allows us to finally license our content under the CC-Wiki
(that's what we could call CC-By-SA 2.5) license - now the basic
questions are:

1) Do we need to license it right now?
2) Will we really choose CC-By-SA 2.5, or some other license, like
GFDL or CC-By, for example?
3) What should we do about the Wikinews projects which already have a
license choosed?

--
Best regards,
Dariusz "Datrio" Siedlecki


subject: [Foundation-l] Licensing Wikinews


subject: [WikiEN-l] VFD Overhaul proposal.

body:
Hey, I'd just like to bring attention to the proposal i started,
[[Wikipedia:VFD Overhaul]]. It can be viewed at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VFD_Overhaul

--
signature


from_name: Theo Clarke

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Worrying trends

body:
My apologies to the list and to A. Nony Mouse, I had not noticed that A. Nony Mouse's message (to which I was replying) was a reply solely to me off-board.

Theo

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:06:09 +0100, Alphax wrote:
>?Theo Clarke wrote:
>>?I regret that I must cease participation in this discussion
>>?because
>>?it has become a platform for abuse of specific individuals. ?This
>>?cessation is probably just as well, since the lack of
>>?participation
>>?by anyone except A. Nony Mouse and myself suggests that only the
>>?two
>>?of us think the proposal worthy of discussion.
>>
>>?Theo
>>
>
>?Since you just broke a thread, I have no idea which proposal you are
>?talking about...
>
>?- --
>?Alphax ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ? /"\


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

body:
Dude, You got cohones! Maybe a little more discussion than two emails
is needed though?

On 8/1/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> I agree with David's contention that VFD in Very F'ing Destructive.
>
> How about replacing it with a category tag convention? Simply place a
> [[category:delete]] tag on an article, and explain your reasoning on the
> article's talk page?
>
> (We could make sub-categories like:
> * [[category:delete-hopeless-stub]]
> * [[category:delete-non-notable-person]], etc.
>
> I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
> if I don't!!
>
> Impatiently,
>
> Uncle Ed
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Frisian languages

body:
Hi all,

            Could someone clarify for me the differences between all these
Frisian languages that keep getting requested?  Are they still mutually
intelligible?  Could someone provide me a few example sentences in the
various Frisian types that could show the differences (not just spelling, I
hope)?

Thanks,

James


body:
If there were an Ultimate Wiktionary, I'd like to have ang available in
Latin and Runic sets.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wiktionary-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wiktionary-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Jim Breen
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:12 PM
To: The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions

[Gerard Meijssen ([Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions)
writes:]
>> For the Ultimate Wiktionary I have documented some of the design
>> criteria. It can be found here:
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage

>> The Data design can be found here:
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design

I have added some comments to the Discussion pages of those two.

>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.

Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.

>> This
>> means that all incorrect spelling will be amended or deleted. As
>> Ultimate Wiktionary is a database, it does not cater for things like
>> redirects. I urge you to have a look at both the design criteria and the
>> design itself because this is the time when it is relatively easy to
>> make changes. Once Erik starts coding the UW database, having finished
>> Wikidata and the GEMET implementation, the moment has passed us by.

Indeed.

Jim

--
Jim Breen                                http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,               Tel: +61 3 9905 9554
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia                  Fax: +61 3 9905 5146
(Monash Provider No. 00008C)                ???????@??????
_______________________________________________
Wiktionary-l mailing list
Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l


from_name: Zachary Harden

subject: [WikiEN-l] Technical question

body:
I am having a problem. Everytime I want to edit, I get this error message:
"Error in numRows(): Can't execute the query because you have a conflicting
read lock." A number was given to me: 10.0.0.102. I am not sure if that is
an IP address or not.

Regards,

Zachary Harden, Eagle Scout (BSA)
User:Zscout370


body:
Dear Thijs,

There are some copies of your article that will still be present online,
since various websites copy ours. Those copies are sometimes never updated,
thus, your version could still be floating around. But, I can check and see
if the article does remain on Wikipedia, and if so, I will list it for
deletion.

Regards,

Zachary Harden, Eagle Scout (BSA)

>From: Thijs van Domburg <mail at thijsvandomburg.nl>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>Subject: [WikiEN-l] [mail at thijsvandomburg.nl: Sesame Street]
>Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:16:39 +0200
>
>Dear mr Wales and mr Larsen,
>
>this is the fourth time I have ti mail you, it's driving me crazy. I don't
>want my name on Wikipedia, just because I mailed you once. I demand, and
>now forever I hope, that you remove these articles.
>
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015755.html
>
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015760.html
>
>greetings
>
>Thijs van Domburg
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Dear All,

If this gentleman was complaining about the article, I cleaned it up, except
for the photos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fat_Blue&diff=20078713&oldid=16508304

Regards,

Zachary Harden, Eagle Scout (BSA)

>From: Arkady Rose <arkady at arkady.org.uk>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] [mail at thijsvandomburg.nl: Sesame Street]
>Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:05:29 +0100
>
>Thijs van Domburg wrote:
>
>>Dear mr Wales and mr Larsen,
>>
>>this is the fourth time I have ti mail you, it's driving me crazy. I don't
>>want my name on Wikipedia, just because I mailed you once. I demand, and
>>now forever I hope, that you remove these articles.
>>
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015755.html
>>
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015760.html
>>
>>
>As per the mailing list webpage (at
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l):
>
>"*All emails to wikien-l are available on the public web archive.* If you
>do not want your message on the World Wide Web, do not send it to a
>Wikimedia mailing list."
>
>If you don't want your full name to appear in the archives, don't use it
>when posting to the mailing list. Posting to the list is tacit acceptance
>of the terms of the list which includes agreeing to having your posts and
>their contents publically archived.
>
>regards,
>Arkady
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Worrying trends

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Theo Clarke wrote:
> I regret that I must cease participation in this discussion because
> it has become a platform for abuse of specific individuals.  This
> cessation is probably just as well, since the lack of participation
> by anyone except A. Nony Mouse and myself suggests that only the two
> of us think the proposal worthy of discussion.
>
> Theo
>

Since you just broke a thread, I have no idea which proposal you are
talking about...

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFC7ixR/RxM5Ph0xhMRAxXpAKCouJnbB9EZwa1l7lEX7ZBRNJu/NgCfdN4M
rXfavds88TEphP9jFoRumaM=
=nqja
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Arkady Rose

subject: [WikiEN-l] Technical question

body:
Zachary Harden wrote:

> I am having a problem. Everytime I want to edit, I get this error
> message: "Error in numRows(): Can't execute the query because you have
> a conflicting read lock." A number was given to me: 10.0.0.102. I am
> not sure if that is an IP address or not.

10.0.0.102 would be an IP address on a lan (i.e. internal network, not
on the internet).

Regards,
Arkady


body:
Thijs van Domburg wrote:

>Dear mr Wales and mr Larsen,
>
>this is the fourth time I have ti mail you, it's driving me crazy. I don't want my name on Wikipedia, just because I mailed you once. I demand, and now forever I hope, that you remove these articles.
>
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015755.html
>
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015760.html
>
>
As per the mailing list webpage (at
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l):

"*All emails to wikien-l are available on the public web archive.* If
you do not want your message on the World Wide Web, do not send it to a
Wikimedia mailing list."

If you don't want your full name to appear in the archives, don't use it
when posting to the mailing list. Posting to the list is tacit
acceptance of the terms of the list which includes agreeing to having
your posts and their contents publically archived.

regards,
Arkady


from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions

body:
James R. Johnson <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> If there were an Ultimate Wiktionary, I'd like to have ang available in
> Latin and Runic sets.

And with ? or with W, and with macrons or with acutes ...

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


from_name: Christian Thiele

body:
Edward Z. Yang <edwardzyang at thewritingpot.com> schrieb am Mon, 01 Aug 2005
23:52:51 +0200:

> I was intriuged to have recieved this message on my Watchlist:
>
> "You have 88.5 pages on your watchlist (not including talk pages)"
>
> Can someone tell me how this is possible?

In fact you have 88.5*2 = 177 pages on your watchlist. I think this
remains from the former division by two to remove the discussion pages
 from the count. See bug 3001 in Bugzilla [1].

Christian Thiele

[1] http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3001


from_name: Alex Regh

body:
Hi!

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:38:27 -0700, Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>I think it would help Admins at en.wikipedia if we knew which of our
>contributors have been blocked from contributing to other Wikimedia
>projects - such as the French or German encyclopedias.
>
>[...] Troublemakers
>should be shown the door - and quickly.

I'd be carefull with that, though - some WPs might block or otherwise
discipline users for things that would not have resulted in such an action on
en:, in fact, I fear that one rather large WP does so regularly. And let's not
even mention all the small ones where we essentially have no clue what is
going on, and little chance of getting one, either.

There is also the problem of knowing that a person is indeed the same user -
since we don't have unified log-in, that is a big problem not even IP checks
can solve.

So while it might be usefull in selected cases to know that and what for a
person was disciplined, in most cases the information will simply be not
available, and might be useless at best and prejudicing people on en: at worst
if we have it.

Alex
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
        --- Jim Steinman ---

Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de


from_name: Andrew Venier

body:
If you look at the original post, it *was* a private message to
jwales at bomis.com, who then forwarded it to the list.

Phroziac wrote:

>Those aren't wikipedia, they are archives of messages sent to a
>mailing list for wikipedia. And wouldn't a private email have been
>better, or maybe a phone call? I can understand international rates
>might be insane though!
>
>
>On 8/1/05, Thijs van Domburg <mail at thijsvandomburg.nl> wrote:
>
>
>>Dear mr Wales and mr Larsen,
>>
>>this is the fourth time I have ti mail you, it's driving me crazy. I don't want my name on Wikipedia, just because I mailed you once. I demand, and now forever I hope, that you remove these articles.
>>
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015755.html
>>
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-September/015760.html
>>
>>greetings
>>
>>Thijs van Domburg
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


from_name: Angela

body:
On 8/1/05, Tor Ville <tor_ville at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Your policy of indiscriminate blocking of edits from
> IP addresses of the TOR anonymous network is a serious
> violation of individual privacy.

The blocking of open proxies would only be violating your privacy if
we were also forcing you to edit. You can choose not to.

> OK, I understand that you want to prevent abuse from
> open proxies when the use is not logged in, but WHY
> BLOCK LOGGED IN USERS who use the Tor network

We currently have no method of blocking only unregistered users or
only logged in users. If a registered user is blocked, it blocks their
name and IP. If an unregistered user is blocked, their IP and any
names they attempt to create during the blocking period will be
blocked.

See http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=550

Angela.


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
Let me see if I understand.  You aren't happy that your real name
appears in the mailing list archive, and you complain about this by
sending an email with your real name to the mailing list?

> Thijs van Domburg

Oh dear, there it is again.

--Jimbo


from_name: Johann B.Gabagat

subject: [WikiEN-l] blank pages

body:
How do you make a blank page? You won't let me upload any .doc or .txt
so I think it would be easier to just creating a blank page and adding
from there.

My account is called Izaak.

-Izaak, Lord of the Lotus Clan.


from_name: William Camilleri

subject: [WikiEN-l] Hollywood film composer enquiry

body:
Dear Sirs,
I am a top Hollywood film composer managed in Beverly Hills.
I would like to add my website www.filmworks-online.com
<http://www.filmworks-online.com/>  to your film composer section.

Can you kindly assist?
Best wishes,

William Camilleri


from_name: David Gerard

body:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Tony_Sidaway

The above RFC is completely on crack and those involved should be ashamed
of themselves. If you look closely, you'll see it's actually sour grapes
over one VFD debate they didn't like the closing of.

VFD performs a useful function about as damagingly as it could possibly be
performed. It's being used as a substitute for cleanup, wikify, and
copyvio.  It's being used to push agendas of all sorts.  It's constantly
creating increased animosity between editors.

The VFD regulars are openly hostile to non-regulars. One of the arguments
against breaking up VFD from the all-on-one-page to day pages a couple of
months ago was that it would attract too many people to vote if the pages
were more usable! I mean, what the fuck?

VFD the idea is one thing. VFD the present reality is pathological. More
rules on it won't fix it - it needs to be taken out and shot.

MOTION: That while VFD nominally performs a useful function in clearing
crap out of Wikipedia, its current operation and subcommunity is so
pathological and damaging to the Wikipedia community that it should be
removed entirely. Remove it completely. Then talk and think how to come
up with something that works without becoming an engine for rancor.

- d.


body:
Poor, Edmund W (Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com) [050802 05:39]:

> I'm tempted to just Be Bold and just go ahead and delete vfd. Just see
> if I don't!!

Holy crap, he did.

  19:43, 1 August 2005 Ed Poor deleted "Wikipedia:Votes for deletion" (This
  page does not work - see David Gerard's wikien-l post)

I must write less forcefully, evidently ... ah, that's no fun. HEAR MY
WORDS AND COWER!

In the meantime, I'll just hide under the desk until the fallout clears.
Duck and cover!

- d.


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
James R. Johnson wrote:

>If there were an Ultimate Wiktionary, I'd like to have ang available in
>Latin and Runic sets.
>
>James
>
>
Hoi,
If you want this old language, you can have it both with Runic sets and
in Latin. When the UW is on line, you even have a user interface in
either script the first thing to do is to localise the user interface.
This is done by adding translations to words like noun or Nederlands or
romaji. As to runic sets, if they have a UTF-8 characterset, there will
be no problem.
Thanks,
Gerard

>-----Original Message-----
>From: wiktionary-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
>[mailto:wiktionary-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Jim Breen
>Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:12 PM
>To: The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list
>Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions
>
>[Gerard Meijssen ([Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions)
>writes:]
>
>
>>>For the Ultimate Wiktionary I have documented some of the design
>>>criteria. It can be found here:
>>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>The Data design can be found here:
>>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design
>>>
>>>
>
>I have added some comments to the Discussion pages of those two.
>
>
>
>>>One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.
>>>
>>>
>
>Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
>If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
>English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.
>
>
Multiple correct spellings are possible it is however best to identify
the spelling for the script that they use. Typically one way of spelling
is more or less standardised in a orthography or it can be associated
with a particular dialect.

>
>
>>>This
>>>means that all incorrect spelling will be amended or deleted. As
>>>Ultimate Wiktionary is a database, it does not cater for things like
>>>redirects. I urge you to have a look at both the design criteria and the
>>>design itself because this is the time when it is relatively easy to
>>>make changes. Once Erik starts coding the UW database, having finished
>>>Wikidata and the GEMET implementation, the moment has passed us by.
>>>
>>>
>
>Indeed.
>
>Jim
>
>--
>Jim Breen                                http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
>Clayton School of Information Technology,               Tel: +61 3 9905 9554
>Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia                  Fax: +61 3 9905 5146
>(Monash Provider No. 00008C)                ???????@??????
>_______________________________________________
>Wiktionary-l mailing list
>Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wiktionary-l mailing list
>Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>
>
>


from_name: cookfire

body:
James R. Johnson wrote:

>If there were an Ultimate Wiktionary, I'd like to have ang available in
>Latin and Runic sets.
>
>James
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: wiktionary-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
>[mailto:wiktionary-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Jim Breen
>Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:12 PM
>To: The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list
>Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions
>
>[Gerard Meijssen ([Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions)
>writes:]
>
>
>>>For the Ultimate Wiktionary I have documented some of the design
>>>criteria. It can be found here:
>>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>The Data design can be found here:
>>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design
>>>
>>>
>
>I have added some comments to the Discussion pages of those two.
>
>
>
>>>One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.
>>>
>>>
>
>Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
>If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
>English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.
>
>
Many languages have different accepted spellings for the same word.
Japanese with the three character sets. German with umlauts and ae, oe
and ue or ss instead of ?. Esperanto accepts cx and ch for ^c. Dutch had
at one time a preferred and a progressive spelling and English has some
variants depending on the locality it is spoken. I'm sure it doesn't end
there and it is something a multilingual dictionary has to cater for.
Adding common misspellings shouldn't be all that hard. They simply need
a possibility to be marked as such. The misspellings don't exactly have
to be shown either (except maybe on demand), but when somebody uses them
to search the database, the entries they point to should be found.

Just my 2 cents,

Polyglot


body:
cookfire wrote:

> James R. Johnson wrote:
>
>> If there were an Ultimate Wiktionary, I'd like to have ang available in
>> Latin and Runic sets.
>>
>> James
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: wiktionary-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
>> [mailto:wiktionary-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Jim Breen
>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:12 PM
>> To: The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions
>>
>> [Gerard Meijssen ([Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design
>> decisions)
>> writes:]
>>
>>
>>>> For the Ultimate Wiktionary I have documented some of the design
>>>> criteria. It can be found here:
>>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> The Data design can be found here:
>>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> I have added some comments to the Discussion pages of those two.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
>> If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
>> English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.
>>
>>
> Many languages have different accepted spellings for the same word.
> Japanese with the three character sets. German with umlauts and ae, oe
> and ue or ss instead of ?. Esperanto accepts cx and ch for ^c. Dutch
> had at one time a preferred and a progressive spelling and English has
> some variants depending on the locality it is spoken. I'm sure it
> doesn't end there and it is something a multilingual dictionary has to
> cater for. Adding common misspellings shouldn't be all that hard. They
> simply need a possibility to be marked as such. The misspellings don't
> exactly have to be shown either (except maybe on demand), but when
> somebody uses them to search the database, the entries they point to
> should be found.
>
> Just my 2 cents,
>
> Polyglot

Hoi,
Have a look at the latest design it caters for having some Miss
Pellings.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage#Only_correct_spelling
Thanks,
    Gerard

PS the design is still very much an evolving thing


body:
Ray Saintonge (saintonge at telus.net) [050802 09:02]:
> David Gerard wrote:

> >In the meantime, I'll just hide under the desk until the fallout clears.
> >Duck and cover!

> Somebody should award Ed a barnstar for outstanding courage.

>From a safe distance. He may be immune to falling safes, we are not.

Thankfully, even if en: is broken, I can still edit m:Bash .

<Tony_Sidaway> "You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!"

- d.


from_name: Phroziac

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Sanity check re: recreation of deleted page for
	project purposes

body:
Just do it! IAR and be bold, you know! :)
Or, you could alternatively use the undelete feature to view it, and
paste it into a text document on your computer.

On 8/2/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
> I'm working on Wikiproject Scientology ([[|WP:SCN]]). There was an article
> which would be of great use, [[List of articles about Scientology]]. It got
> VFDed in April as redundant with [[Category:Scientology]] and its subcats
> (which it arguably was).
>
> Recreating deleted material in your userspace is frowned upon. This list
> was deemed redundant in the article space, but it'd be very useful to have
> on hand for the project space.
>
> While this strikes me as mostly okay, I have a few doubts. And since
> wikien-l is the home of rational and reasoned discussion, I thought I'd ask
> what you lot think before proceeding to actually do so.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


body:
Phroziac (phroziac at gmail.com) [050802 09:13]:

> What? Did VFD actually get deleted? Heh, I thought that was a joke..

It actually got deleted. That's what led to five minutes of read-only and
Tim Starling showing up in #wikipedia ...

- d.


body:
Hi!

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:03:00 -0400, Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:

>I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it.

Even if they do, I suspect that they are more likely to stumble over the page
of a single article, not the fast mess VfD as such is. And on single pages,
VfD doesn't necessarily look that bad.

Those newbies that start digging themselfs into policy pages and formal ways
of resolving problems are probably the kind of people who have seens lots of
crap before they ever came to WP.

So I do suspect that the impact of VfD on Newbies is quite limited.

Alex
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
        --- Jim Steinman ---

Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de


body:
Did AndyL get his private email forwarded to a public list? :P

On 8/2/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > David Gerard wrote:
> >
> >>Andrew Venier (avenier at venier.net) [050802 15:57]:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>If you look at the original post, it *was* a private message to
> >>>jwales at bomis.com, who then forwarded it to the list.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Yeah, but *this* post *was* to wikien-l itself.
> >
> >
> > And to be clear, I do support that we erase the poor fellow's name from
> > the archives.  Especially now that I've teased him.
> >
> > --Jimbo
>
> Does that mean that AndyL will get his name erased as well?
>
> - --
> Alphax                      |   /"\
> Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
> OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
> http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFC74uU/RxM5Ph0xhMRA25zAJ0XXfBYf5QA9Ohkm2hn0Zw/cxrM1wCeK0ms
> 34Pdyuq4krZpslSKlZEMfLs=
> =hrCe
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>David Gerard wrote:
>
>
>>Andrew Venier (avenier at venier.net) [050802 15:57]:
>>
>>
>>>If you look at the original post, it *was* a private message to
>>>jwales at bomis.com, who then forwarded it to the list.
>>>
>>>
>>Yeah, but *this* post *was* to wikien-l itself.
>>
>>
>And to be clear, I do support that we erase the poor fellow's name from
>the archives.  Especially now that I've teased him.
>
The irony with this is that having his name public helps in the
protection of his copyrights. :-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Example vs. Original research

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Skyring wrote:
>
>
>>The difference is that some people actively argue that the earth is
>>not a sphere, whereas those who argue that Paris is not the capital of
>>France so far have kept their activities secret.
>>
>>If a fact is contentious, then it should be backed up with a cite.
>>
>>
>I can't agree with you that flat earthers constitute a sufficiently
>respectable or large position that we need to treat the roundness of the
>earth as the sort of fact that necessitates a citation.
>
Part of the problem is that the people raising the flat earth argument
are not themselves falt earthers.  Hypothesizing arguments that aren't
being made, and generating well-reasoned and documented
counter-arguments are the essence of straw man reasoning.  Without being
disrespectful to them we should wait until we hear from genuine
flat-earthers before documenting the alternate view.

While we are waiting for them may I hypothesize that the edges of our
flat earth are decorated by a fringe of trolls waiting for the unwary. :-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] blank pages

body:
All you have to do is visit a page that does not exist. You can do a
search for it, and click the link to create it, go to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<PAGENAME>, or click any red link
anywhere on the site.

On 8/1/05, Johann B. Gabagat <LordIzaak at postmark.net> wrote:
> How do you make a blank page? You won't let me upload any .doc or .txt
> so I think it would be easier to just creating a blank page and adding
> from there.
>
> My account is called Izaak.
>
>
> -Izaak, Lord of the Lotus Clan.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unusual block

body:
Just guessing here, but probably things like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hermione1980&diff=prev&oldid=19663126
Constantly talking about another wiki is probably a bad idea. I took a
brief look at some of your edits, and there's a lot of that. I don't
personally see it as trolling though. You really don't have to mention
it when you copy stuff, and stuff.

Oh, and make sure you are respecting the GFDL when copying things to
the HP wiki! :)

On 8/2/05, gutergeiger2 at t-online.de <gutergeiger2 at t-online.de> wrote:
> User:Mikkalai blocked me on August 8 for trolling. He apparently came to
> this conclusion independently based on evidence either nonexistent or
> twisted. All my edits have been proper, civil, and legitimate, and I
> have had no recorded incidents of "trolling" (and, for future reference,
> will never have). He even deleted my user and talk pages for no apparent
> reason.
>
> If this does not turn out to be a misinterpretation, I think that
> User:Mikkalai is abusing his powers, and blocking all users with Harry
> Potter usernames, including those that have made purely legitimate
> edits, is ample evidence to support that.
>
> I request that something be done about this undeserved block. In the
> fastest time possible. Please.
>
> Thanks!
>
> User:Chosen One
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


body:
It's generally frowned upon to write an article on yourself, or
something you do, or even do any major contributions on it, no matter
how notable it is. Assuming you are who you say you are, someone who
likes you will most likely write the article eventually anyway. I
don't know anything about you, so I can't make the article. :)

By the way, welcome to wikipedia!

On 8/1/05, William Camilleri <williamcamilleri at onvol.net> wrote:
> Dear Sirs,
> I am a top Hollywood film composer managed in Beverly Hills.
> I would like to add my website www.filmworks-online.com
> <http://www.filmworks-online.com/>  to your film composer section.
>
> Can you kindly assist?
> Best wishes,
>
> William Camilleri
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Dariusz Siedlecki

subject: [Wikitech-l] A few old requests

body:
1. Could anybody create pl.wikimedia.org?
2. Could anybody rename tsca and tsca.bot to Tsca and Tsca.bot on
nl.wiktionary.org?
3. Could anybody explain what's the current way of locking
inactive/vandalised wikis? Stewards can't set the developer access,
and only developers can lock and unlock databases.
4. What's the current situation with the "rollback" flag? Will it be
activated anytime soon, or will it still be inactive?

I understand that the developers are pretty busy with the Wikimania
hacking days and the current server problems, but at least a short
reply "We'll do it later" will be okay.

--
Best regards,
Dariusz "Datrio" Siedlecki


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] A few old requests

body:
Dariusz Siedlecki wrote:
> 1. Could anybody create pl.wikimedia.org?

Any special requirements for it?

> 2. Could anybody rename tsca and tsca.bot to Tsca and Tsca.bot on
> nl.wiktionary.org?

Done. (Just the user record, haven't touched other stuff.)

> 3. Could anybody explain what's the current way of locking
> inactive/vandalised wikis? Stewards can't set the developer access,
> and only developers can lock and unlock databases.

This isn't something we do, afaik.

> 4. What's the current situation with the "rollback" flag? Will it be
> activated anytime soon, or will it still be inactive?

There's no such flag currently. Adding it would require a community
decision and may not be a good idea.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050802/c24b1d38/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Josh Gordon

body:
How can he be William Camilleri be a "top Hollywood screen composer" with no
IMDB credits, anyway?

jpgordon

On 8/2/05, Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's generally frowned upon to write an article on yourself, or
> something you do, or even do any major contributions on it, no matter
> how notable it is. Assuming you are who you say you are, someone who
> likes you will most likely write the article eventually anyway. I
> don't know anything about you, so I can't make the article. :)
>
> By the way, welcome to wikipedia!
>
> On 8/1/05, William Camilleri <williamcamilleri at onvol.net> wrote:
> > Dear Sirs,
> > I am a top Hollywood film composer managed in Beverly Hills.
> > I would like to add my website www.filmworks-online.com<http://www.filmworks-online.com>
> > <http://www.filmworks-online.com/> to your film composer section.
> >
> > Can you kindly assist?
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > William Camilleri
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> --
> signature
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: gutergeiger2 at t-online.de

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unusual block

body:
User:Mikkalai blocked me on August 8 for trolling. He apparently came to
this conclusion independently based on evidence either nonexistent or
twisted. All my edits have been proper, civil, and legitimate, and I
have had no recorded incidents of "trolling" (and, for future reference,
will never have). He even deleted my user and talk pages for no apparent
reason.

If this does not turn out to be a misinterpretation, I think that
User:Mikkalai is abusing his powers, and blocking all users with Harry
Potter usernames, including those that have made purely legitimate
edits, is ample evidence to support that.

I request that something be done about this undeserved block. In the
fastest time possible. Please.

Thanks!

User:Chosen One


from_name: Tor Ville

body:
> Because that would allow trolls and vandals and
other evil items to
> make accounts using a tor, and freely evade any ban.

Has that actually happened a lot? Have people created
lots of unser accounts through tor to evade their
usernames being banned??? I mean there must be so many
other opportunities for someone to be a nuisance (e.g.
going to an internet cafe...)

Let's just give it a try. If it really doesn't work
then another solution may be to make it a bit of an
effort to set up a new username. That may also
discourage people.

> I really don't
> see why any government would care what you're
doing..

Much of the data collection is automated, so they
don't have to put in a lot of effort to compile a file
on you. Don't assume everyone is from the US, and even
the US starts to care less and less about civil
liberties.
This is a long story, but believe me, not everyone is
happy with everyone being able to compile everything
they ever say on every topic at any time.
This is not an irrelevant issue, and I am not being
paranoid.

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


from_name: Dan Grey

body:
On 02/08/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
> I'm working on Wikiproject Scientology ([[|WP:SCN]]). There was an article
> which would be of great use, [[List of articles about Scientology]]. It got
> VFDed in April as redundant with [[Category:Scientology]] and its subcats
> (which it arguably was).
>
> Recreating deleted material in your userspace is frowned upon. This list
> was deemed redundant in the article space, but it'd be very useful to have
> on hand for the project space.

Will it help you write an encyclopaedia?

If so, do it.

Dan


body:
Angela wrote:
> We currently have no method of blocking only
unregistered users or
> only logged in users.

I guess I am suggestin you should have this option in
the software.

> If a registered user is blocked, it blocks their
> name and IP.

Why block the IP? What if it's from a library or
school? This sounds like a too harsh response. Could
you not make new account user creation a a bit more of
an effort/time (at least from the open proxies) to
discourage abuse?

> See
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=550

OK, I will vote for that bug. But it is not enough to
have the software, you have to use it too.

> Angela.

Thanks for the response, Torville

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 02/08/05, Kat Walsh <mindspillage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/1/05, Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
> > > But we aren't, and I suspect more than one person was incredibly
> > > confused. Think of all the pages that link to VfD, and how many
> > > newbies stumble across it; all the policies that mention it.
> >
> > I don't know about that.
> >
> > I suspect that very FEW newbies stumble across it. I am trying to
> > remember how long I was editing Wikipedia before I ran into VfD or
> > even knew that pages got deleted. I believe it was several months.
>
> Really? I found it within days -- and, no, nothing I've written has
> been listed!  (Not even my composercruft -- but now I'll be quiet
> before someone goes  through my contribs with a fine-tooth comb. ;-))
> My first VfD edit is from 6 days after registering -- no, not voting,
> but listing a page. Curiosity corrupted the Kat, I guess; I wonder how
> anyone can *not* stumble across it.

I'd have to check when mine was, but I think I was using VfD (very,
very ineptly, probably) within the first couple of weeks. I think I
randomly found reference to deletion on a policy page somewhere, and
then was playing with random-page...

Especially given the current size of VfD, it wouldn't really surprise
me if it's even easier now.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


body:
The trolls are on the BOTTOM of the edge of the world. They come out
and attack people when they get to close.

On 8/2/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
> >Skyring wrote:
> >
> >
> >>The difference is that some people actively argue that the earth is
> >>not a sphere, whereas those who argue that Paris is not the capital of
> >>France so far have kept their activities secret.
> >>
> >>If a fact is contentious, then it should be backed up with a cite.
> >>
> >>
> >I can't agree with you that flat earthers constitute a sufficiently
> >respectable or large position that we need to treat the roundness of the
> >earth as the sort of fact that necessitates a citation.
> >
> Part of the problem is that the people raising the flat earth argument
> are not themselves falt earthers.  Hypothesizing arguments that aren't
> being made, and generating well-reasoned and documented
> counter-arguments are the essence of straw man reasoning.  Without being
> disrespectful to them we should wait until we hear from genuine
> flat-earthers before documenting the alternate view.
>
> While we are waiting for them may I hypothesize that the edges of our
> flat earth are decorated by a fringe of trolls waiting for the unwary. :-)
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


subject: [Wikitech-l] A few old requests

body:
On 8/2/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Dariusz Siedlecki wrote:
> > 1. Could anybody create pl.wikimedia.org?
>
> Any special requirements for it?

It'll be a Wiki to discuss the Polish Wikimedia local chapter, Angela
said it'd be okay to create it - the Wiki should probably be the same
as nl.wikimedia. Nothing else to mention besides that, I think.

--
Best regards,
Dariusz "Datrio" Siedlecki


from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikicooks

body:
Here's pitching an idea that I think would have to work..

It's Wikicooks (or something like that). In other words, a repository
of recipes in the wiki-way, ie. collated from all around the world and
available in a multitude of languages. As far as I know, there's no
really good repository of recipes online - I was looking the other
day, and found some okay resources but nothing that we couldn't do
better ourselves. And of course, it'd be free and open-content..

So, opinions? My only other question then is where this should be
created/hosted - in Wikibooks, Wikicities or a new wiki of its own?

Cheers,

Cormac

PS - I had this idea ages ago and before I heard about the Danish Open
source beer - but wouldn't we be able to take up that idea?
Wikipedia's tasty range of pasta sauces? Or is that just cheesy?


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikicooks


body:
David Gerard wrote:
> Andrew Venier (avenier at venier.net) [050802 15:57]:
>
>
>>If you look at the original post, it *was* a private message to
>>jwales at bomis.com, who then forwarded it to the list.
>
>
>
> Yeah, but *this* post *was* to wikien-l itself.

And to be clear, I do support that we erase the poor fellow's name from
the archives.  Especially now that I've teased him.

--Jimbo


from_name: Muke Tever

body:
Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.
>>>
>>> Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
>>> If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
>>> English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.
>>>
>> Many languages have different accepted spellings for the same word.
>> Japanese with the three character sets. German with umlauts and ae, oe
>> and ue or ss instead of ?. Esperanto accepts cx and ch for ^c. Dutch
>> had at one time a preferred and a progressive spelling and English has
>> some variants depending on the locality it is spoken. I'm sure it
>> doesn't end there and it is something a multilingual dictionary has to
>> cater for. Adding common misspellings shouldn't be all that hard. They
>> simply need a possibility to be marked as such. The misspellings don't
>> exactly have to be shown either (except maybe on demand), but when
>> somebody uses them to search the database, the entries they point to
>> should be found.
>
> Hoi,
> Have a look at the latest design it caters for having some Miss
> Pellings.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage#Only_correct_spelling

What about languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards?

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
Skyring wrote:
> The difference is that some people actively argue that the earth is
> not a sphere, whereas those who argue that Paris is not the capital of
> France so far have kept their activities secret.
>
> If a fact is contentious, then it should be backed up with a cite.

I can't agree with you that flat earthers constitute a sufficiently
respectable or large position that we need to treat the roundness of the
earth as the sort of fact that necessitates a citation.

--Jimbo


from_name: JB

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: A few old requests

body:
Brion Vibber wrote :
> Dariusz Siedlecki wrote:
>
>> 1. Could anybody create pl.wikimedia.org?
>
>
> Any special requirements for it?
>

Yup, this one :

Dariusz Siedlecki wrote this on July 28th :
 > I wanted to ask for creation of pl.wikimedia.org, a Wiki which would
 > help the Poles to organize the work of the Polish local chapter.
 > Basicly, it would serve the same purpose as nl.wikimedia.org.

Sorw


body:
Well, looking on his site, it looks like hes a MUSIC composer. Maybe
he meant screen music? His website makes him seem pretty cool to me
though.

On 8/2/05, Josh Gordon <joshua.p.gordon at gmail.com> wrote:
> How can he be William Camilleri be a "top Hollywood screen composer" with no
> IMDB credits, anyway?
>
> jpgordon
>
> On 8/2/05, Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > It's generally frowned upon to write an article on yourself, or
> > something you do, or even do any major contributions on it, no matter
> > how notable it is. Assuming you are who you say you are, someone who
> > likes you will most likely write the article eventually anyway. I
> > don't know anything about you, so I can't make the article. :)
> >
> > By the way, welcome to wikipedia!
> >
> > On 8/1/05, William Camilleri <williamcamilleri at onvol.net> wrote:
> > > Dear Sirs,
> > > I am a top Hollywood film composer managed in Beverly Hills.
> > > I would like to add my website www.filmworks-online.com<http://www.filmworks-online.com>
> > > <http://www.filmworks-online.com/> to your film composer section.
> > >
> > > Can you kindly assist?
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > William Camilleri
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > signature
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: andyl2004 at sympatico.ca

subject: [WikiEN-l] Archives

body: Following up on my earlier question regarding this lists archives and google - is it really necessary to have the archives publicly available rather than open only to subscribers to the list? And if it is necessary to make them publicly available do they really have to be accessible to google?