from_name: Alex R.

subject: [WikiEN-l] What constitutes a copyvio?

body:
From: "Steve Vertigum" <utilitymuffinresearch2 at yahoo.com>
...
> > is going to infringe and may not have the same fair
> > use defense as Wikipedia
> > will be found an infringer.
>
> You say "will be found" as if this were a "legal
> certainty." Is  there such a thing where
> hyper-transmission of materials is concerned? Please
> dont point to the current RIAA case-- its likely to
> recieve a severe case of public-advocacy backlash.

I think my logic is straightforward. If they have a fair use
defense (o.k., maybe not the exact same fair use defense
as every fair use defense is fact specific) they they will
not have infringed, but if they don't have any fair use
defense, yes, they will have infringed (that is assuming that
the infringement is straightfoward). That is why I
put it in as a certainty. The uncertainty revolves around
the application of the fair use defense to downstream
users. I am trying to focus the legal uncertainty there.
...
> (a reason that the editors should retain
> > authorship attribution and
> > copyright IMO)
>
> Is this going to happen? How does this jive with the
> open-wiki model?  Again, the democratizing,
> open-source model was never really inline with the
> privatized proprietary model in any case-- it's just a
> matter of time for these things to come to a head -- I
> see no point in changing horses in mid-stream now.

My understanding of the "open wiki model" is that it
is a model of collaboration. Collaboration, in the artistic
sense, translates into coauthorship in the copyright
context. If you, I and Jimbo all contribute to an article,
we are all the joint copyright owners of that article.
If someone wants to publish it under the GFDL, they
can, if they want to republish it some other way they
will have to get permission from the coauthors. We
remain the co-authors, we have all contributed to the
same text (note that the collective Wikipedia copyright
is held by all contributors "collective" is a copyright
term that differs from coauthorship under the law. I
don't see that authors do not retain copyright (they
are only giving a non-exclusive license to Wikipedia,
they can still do whatever they want with the original
text, and author attribution (within the GFDL) is
retained; I am not proposing any changes here.

> > the goal is to create a base of
> > knowledge that can be used,
> > not sidelined because the due dillegence could not
> > be done to show who
> > actually owns the co-author copyright on any
> > Wikipedia article
>
> And I take it that "due diligence" does not mean "an
> excess of zeal" either right?  We all are *not in
> disagreement.  Should we (for clarity's sake) now
> better define the term "due diligence" -- or must it
> remain as subjective as the law is itself? :-)

It is not for us to define due diligence, but apply how
the courts interpret it contemporaneously with it
being applied. (that it is why it is better left to the
downstream licensee, perhaps).

> > effectively
> > making the GFDL license scheme useless except to
> > non-income producing downstream licensees
>
> I see, so the whole notion of open-encyclopedia,
> generated by free editor labor, is somehow predicated
> on the possibilty that it will someday must be used by
> someone "for-profit" -- and not merely maintained as a
> perennial world resource ?  Is'nt
> this--philosophically in contradiction to your first
> paragraph--more subject to laws dealing with
> non-profit, for-profit distinctions?

I don't know if libertarians would agree with the notion of
privatization of public knowledge as being contrary to
the libertarian ideal. Remember it is liberatarians who believe that
the profit motive will make public services more effective.
If someone will buy all the lamp posts, they will probably
figure out a way to make money out of them (or they would
not have purchased them) and ultimately the public good
will be better served (though we may have to look at
advertisements on every lamp post in exchange for this
commercialization of the public realm). This is another
example of why the commercial non-commercial dichotomy
does not really work (though I don't agree with McDonalds
outlets in hospitals or consumer advertising geared to
grade and high school students, but that is another discussion.

>
> This is quite clear.  What at issue now are specific
> technicalities --1. Copyviolations in the article
> history only--not in the current version.  -- is it
> necessary to delete an article --or can it simply be
> refactored?

I still think it is better to delete than preserve anything in
the archives, but my proposal below is an interesting
alternative regarding the history pages being considered
an archive under sec. 108 of the copyright law. The history
pages are not really for public consumption the _same_ way
as the current version of any article, are they?

> 2.  The creation of stubs from copyvio sources.

 As long as they are rewritten before posted to Wikipedia
this is a valid way to contribute. It imports the facts
without any infringement (or even fair use); ideas or facts
cannot be copyrighted; that is what we are doing here at
Wikipedia (and why the NPOV is also important, there is
no agenda to an article, it presents all points of view because
from a copyright law perspective they belong to no one,
they are part of the "marketplace of ideas" (that is a famous
quote from a famous American jurist, any guess who?)

3. Proper attribution to article source as a
> mitigating factor in a hypothetical claim of
> violation.

If there are article sources they should _always_ be attributed,
my suggestion is to always put notes about one's sources
in the hidden text; this is different than putting it on the
talk page. If it is in the <!-- hidden text --> it is still part of
the article, the downstream licensee can check the sources
and decide for themselves if there is any infringment or fair
use that might not transform under changed circucumstances.
The same kinds of information goes for fair use attribution.

I have also posted a link to a pdf checklist on the fair use page.
This is the kind of information that should be used whenever
any fair use is claimed. Remember, fair use is use specific, there
is no such thing as general fair use. It _always_ depends on
the circumstances (I have noticed lots of images on Wikipedia
that are fair use, my question is: Have people been contributing
fair use in text as liberally as they do on photos? If they have,
let us only hope that there was attribution information posted
somewhere so that someone can figure that out.

 >4. The inefficiency of deferential preference to the
> VFD process over refactoring.

I am not quite sure I understand this. If one deletes and
starts over, one is not encouraging any copyright violation
in any way. Refactoring is still copying. Better to cite one's
sources and rewrite from scratch rather than cut, paste
and refactor, no?
...
> As long as people are made better aware of this
> fact--essentially, that they are personally
> responsible for the material they submit specifically
> in a civil defamation context.  The issue then is,
> since WP itself is shielded, how much can or will or
> should WP shield its contributors?

It is not just civil defamation, but all kinds of information
based torts that might occur. If someone commits a tort
why should Wikipedia shield them? It should shield the
person who is the object of the tort, no? Wikipedia is
not an insurance company (now that is a way to control
the world, make Wikipedia an insurance company! hee, hee!)
...

> Thank goodness!  But this new notice will take maybe
> an hour for one of the developers to implement. I hope
> the Firmament does'nt get sued before then.

I hope so!  But damages are not likely.  After all even if
"we" do get sued, the question is always what are the
damages and how much did the volunteers work to
mitigate them for the "victim". We need to watch out for
the Wikipedia victim, not the vandals, violators and
defamers.

>
> Thank you Alex. I think that all of this actually
> cleared something up. My spidey-sense is getting back
> to normal.

No. Thank you, Steve for following my argumentation, just
please don't get that spider goo all over the net! And remember,
even thought IAAL, Wikipedia (i.e. its contributors) does not
give legal advice!

Alex756


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Paul Ebermann

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Vote on voting method for final round

body:
"Jimmy Wales" skribis:

> I wrote:
> > >Later, there will have to be some major policy decisions.
>
> Toby responded:
> > What major policy decisions will have to be made for all Wikipedias?
> > Very few, I hope.  That's the best solution to scalability problems.
>
> Well, that's a very good point.  The one thing that I have in mind
> will be the final selection of a method of driving towards 1.0, as
> well as parameters for what that means, exactly.

Do you want a multi-language-1.0, or is this (now)
a English-only thing?

Paul


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Distributed system.

body:
On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 17:44, Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
> Let's say you have 10 Wikipedia servers. All of them dispense articles for
> reading directly. When an article is about to be edited, the title is hashed,
> and the corresponding server is contacted.
>
> That way, each article "belongs" on one of X server, so a lot of consistency
> problems disappear. That server can again notify the others about changes in
> its "own" articles.

We've got about 3-4 edits per minute. Distributing writes sounds like a
lot more trouble than it's worth, possibly leading to all kinds of
consistency troubles on shared resources (link tables...).

Tacking on replicated database server(s) to handle read-only requests
(hundreds per minute) would be simpler and less fragile (slave dies,
just take it out of rotation and -no- pages become inaccessible; master
dies, just declare one of the slaves the new master).

Before we bother about anything like that, we just need a decently fast
machine for the web server!

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikien-l

from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]

body:
>Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] and I have been having a long discussion, and he would
>like for me to reinstate him.  He is of the belief that I am the only
>one who would be against this, although he does allow as there may be
>some complaints from those who have been most strongly against him in
>the past.
>
>However, at this point in time, I have no objections to his return,
>and would like to reinstate him under the name 'Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]'.
>
>The interpersonal courtesies that would be expected of him at that
>point would be the same as expected of anyone.  That is to say, he
>would not be on any sort of extra-special probation, although of
>course he should be aware that some people will be wary of him at
>first.
>
>The important thing, to me, is that Adam has approached this with me
>in the right way this time.  We've talked it over, we've talked about
>various alternatives, and I feel comfortable with his sincerity.  He's
>gone so far as to give me an example of an edit he would like to make,
>and the reasons for it, and it all sounded fine to me.
>
>The point of this letter is to ask people with strong objections and
>concerns to send them to me, and privately at first please, because
>this type of interpersonal matter is seldom made better by public
>argument.  However, and in the interests of sunshine, if anyone has
>any complaints that they feel should be made public, go ahead with
>that if you must.  I just think it'd be better if we cleared things
>up quietly and with dignity.
>
>I know this may be a controversial decision, and I want to make it
>carefully and with ample opportunity for people to express their
>views.
>
>--Jimbo
>
>P.S. for those concerned about the 'Pizza Puzzle' connection, please
>note that whether or not this user is in fact Adam (and he has told me
>directly that it is not him), PP has not edited anything in nearly a
>month and a half.  So that's a problem in the past, I think.

If Adam
1. comes back as Adam,
2. edits as Adam and /only/ as Adam,
3. vows not to revert to running multiple personae
4. avoids personalised attacks on those he perceives as his 'enemies'

then I will support his reinstatement.

JT

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


from_name: Merritt L. Perkins

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: text to voice; learning languages

body:
1. Instead of reading an Encyclopedia article from the screen would it be
nice to be able to lean back and have it read. to you by a synthetic
voice? I believe that such programs already exist. Would anything need to
be done to the articles so that such programs would work?.
. My computer has such a text to voice program in Dragon
NaturallySpeaking 7 but it does not want to work for me. Perhaps it is
not compatible with XP.
2. While it would not be part of Wikipedia would free lessons in foreign
languages be a good idea? Once you get started you need to get practice
using the language and Encyclopedia articles might furnish such practice.
Is anybody interested?
Just daydreaming.
Merritt L. Perkins


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Vote on voting method for final round

body:
Guillaume-
> I didn't speak about submit whatever people want, but just propose
> alternative logo based on elected concept.

You're free to propose whatever you want. You're just not free to add it
to the final ballot. That's the artists' decision.

>>> I just regret that the rules
>>> was not cleary defined before vote start

>> That's simply not true. The voting rules have all been on [[International
>> logo vote]] before the vote started. I have been careful not to change any
>> rules during voting.

> I don't specially like to be treat as lier especially when I'm not ;o)
> When the vote begun, the rules of the second round didn't allowed variants.
> This (good) rule was add by you the 6th of september at 12:55 (to be
> precise).

That's incorrect. I made clear before the first voting round on the vote
page that variants would be voted upon in the final stage ("What about
variants? ... In the second [now third] voting stage, you will have an
opportunity to grade each logo variant individually." That part was
written together with the other rules on Aug 27, right before the vote
started.) I just clarified the number of variants after the first round
closed and before the second one began. This was not a change of rules
during voting.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikitech-l] Smarty template skins: Paddington and Montparnasse

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>I've sort of hacked together templates for Tarquin's Paddington and
>Montparnasse proposed skins as Smarty templates, and stuffed and prodded
>it into the development branch of MediaWiki.
>
Yikes!
I'd better get back to work on designs!

I've been looking around and it seems there is no solution to the
problem of the page footer only occupying space beneath the article --
ie not filling the full width because of the quicklink bar.

The problem is that we cannot guarantee which of the two columns
(article & quickbar) will always be the longest. All the CSS layouts
I've seen that put a footer beneath columns require one to be longer
than the other to do the "pushing down" of the footer -- and stub
articles are often shorter than the quickbar.

Anyway, I'm going to look at the skins I made with a critical eye --
comments on them would be welcome :)


from_name: Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Distributed system.

body:
Hi.

I know ideas for a distributed Wikipedia have been discussed here before, but I
haven't seen the following angle before (this may just be because I don't read
my mail carefully enough of course):

Let's say you have 10 Wikipedia servers. All of them dispense articles for
reading directly. When an article is about to be edited, the title is hashed,
and the corresponding server is contacted.

That way, each article "belongs" on one of X server, so a lot of consistency
problems disappear. That server can again notify the others about changes in
its "own" articles.

If a server goes down, it's not the end of the world, an Xth of the articles
aren't editable for a while. The downed server's "lease" can be revoked after
an hour, perhaps.

While I don't have the capacity to implement this myself (just fending off the
"send patches"), it doesn't appear to be such a gigantic departure from the
existing system. (Yes, big. But not rewrite.)

Wouldn't it be worth looking into? It seems increased demand eats up every
regular measure taken (kind of like congested highways becoming even more
congested when they're expanded).

-- Daniel


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

body:
--- Tucci <tucci528 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I welcome him back as long as he promises that it is
> his goal to write neutrally-phrased articles and
> maintain reasonably cordial relations with others.
>
> On another note, there has been doubt about his
> actual/perceived/desired gender.  Since he is now
> apparently going by Adam, does that mean he would
> like
> us to refer to him as a male?
>
> TUF-KAT

Yes. He is and has always been male. We've sometimes
refered to him as female because some of his aliases
were female, but that was only to trick us.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]

body:
> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:43:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]
> To: Discussion list for English-language Wikipedia
> 	<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <20030912104324.8728.qmail at web41801.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> --- Tucci <tucci528 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I welcome him back as long as he promises that it
> is
> > his goal to write neutrally-phrased articles and
> > maintain reasonably cordial relations with others.
> >
> > On another note, there has been doubt about his
> > actual/perceived/desired gender.  Since he is now
> > apparently going by Adam, does that mean he would
> > like
> > us to refer to him as a male?
> >
> > TUF-KAT
>
> Yes. He is and has always been male. We've sometimes
> refered to him as female because some of his aliases
> were female, but that was only to trick us.
> LDan

You think it is a trick, and thus *bad behavior*, to
hide a male status under a female name, or not to
mention one is a female under a male name ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
Anthere wrote:
> You think it is a trick, and thus *bad behavior*, to
> hide a male status under a female name, or not to
> mention one is a female under a male name ?

I don't think that's what he meant.  Choosing an alias in order to
remain anonymous is perfectly acceptable.  Even choosing an alias that
causes people to guess wrong about your sex is not a problem.

The problem that many people had with Adam's behavior in the past is
that he created several aliases in order to evade a ban, and in order
to deceive people, rather than merely to hide his true identity.

There's a somewhat subtle point here -- community does not require
true identities, but it does require consistent identities.  I don't
really care who anyone here is "in real life" (though I do slightly
prefer to know), but I do care if someone takes on multiple identities
in order to play games.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] ebabylone and wikipedia content

body:
Hello (improved google translation)

A French-speaking site http://www.ebabylone.com/
chose to use us like source of information.  The link
to our content is accessible from the link
"Encyclop?die" at the front of their home page.

When one clicks on "Encyclopedie", here what one can
see http://www.ebabylone.com/article.php?sid=7

It is an extraction of our home page.  On this page,
there are no references of Wikipedia.

At the bottom of the page a comment:  All the Logos
and trademarks are deposited, the comments are under
the responsibility of those which published them, the
remainder ? 2000 ebabylone.com

When one clicks on the link of the encyclopaedia, one
notes that all the articles are here, complete and
updated.  The totality of the articles is copied in
real time.  See
http://www.ebabylone.com/encyclopreg.php?title=Biology

the article being complete, it remains the mention "an
article of Wikip?dia, the free encyclopaedia" at the
top of the article

At the bottom of the page, it remains also the mention
indicating that the contents are under licence GNU.
There is also part of a link (brokent, so non
clickable) indicating the source of the page.

There are no links anywhere either towards Wikipedia,
nor towards the article on wikipedia.  Always at the
foot of the page, there remains the mention

"All the Logos and Marks are deposited, the comments
are under the responsibility of those which published
them, the remainder ? 2000 ebabylone.com This site was
set up by ebabylone.com"

We are delighted by see fr.wikipedia used as source.
Nevertheless, certain questions arise.

Some editors estimate that according to GFDL'S, there
should obligatorily be a link to the original article,
to preserve the access of the history, to check the
authorship of the article.  Is this true?

In addition, there is no link towards Wikip?dia on
this website, or to any article of Wikipedia.  Only,
one partially broken and extr?mement discrete link for
each article.  Is this ok?

It is also normal that figure always in footer the
mention of copyright of ebabylone?

What do you think ?
-------

Bonjour a tous

Un site francophone http://www.ebabylone.com/ a choisi
de nous utiliser comme source d information.

Le lien est accessible depuis Encyclop?die en tete de
leur page d accueil.

Lorsque l'on clique sur Encyclopedie, voici ce que l
on peut voir

http://www.ebabylone.com/article.php?sid=7

C'est une extraction de notre page d'accueil.

Sur cette page, il n'y a aucune r?f?rence a Wikipedia.
Au bas de la page un commentaire :  Tous les Logos et
Marques sont d?pos?s, les commentaires sont sous la
responsabilit? de ceux qui les ont publi?s, le reste ?
2000 ebabylone.com

------

Quand on clique sur les liens de l'encyclop?die, on
note que tous les articles sont la et complets. La
totalit? des articles est copi?e en temps r?el.

Voir
http://www.ebabylone.com/encyclopreg.php?title=Biologie

L'article ?tant complet, il reste la mention "Un
article de Wikip?dia, l'encyclop?die libre"

Au bas de la page, il reste ?galement la mention
indiquant que le contenu est sous licence GNU. Il y a
egalement une partie de lien indiquant la source de la
page, mais aucun lien ni vers Wikipedia, ni vers
l'article sur wikipedia.

Toujours en bas de page, il reste la mention

 Tous les Logos et Marques sont d?pos?s, les
commentaires sont sous la responsabilit? de ceux qui
les ont publi?s, le reste ? 2000 ebabylone.com
Ce site a ?t? mis en place par ebabylone.com

------

Nous sommes ravis de voir fr.wikipedia utilis?e comme
source.

Neanmoins, certaines questions se posent.

Certains ?diteurs estiment que selon la GFDL, il
devrait obligatoirement y avoir un lien vers l'article
originel, pour pr?server l'acc?s a l'historique des
auteurs de l'article. Est ce vrai ?

Par ailleurs, il n'y a donc aucun lien vers Wikip?dia
elle meme, ou vers aucun article de Wikipedia.
Seulement, un lien partiellement cass? et extr?mement
discret. Est ce normal ?

Est il egalement normal que figure toujours en pied de
page la mention de copyright de ebabylone ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Problem with updating pages

body:
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 03:18, Nik wrote:
> Cheers Tim, here is an extract from the logfile that is the section where I
> did the actions you asked. I also have attached the full file.
[snip]

Here's a quick overview of how it's supposed to work:
* Browser requests to view the page. Server sees this is a first
request, renders the page, and sends the current timestamp with it along
with instructions that the browser *must* double-check with the server
every time it views that page.
* Browser requests edit page.
* Browser posts the submission. Server updates the page in the database
and tells the browser to request the page for viewing again.
* Browser requests to view the page; this time it sends along the
timestamp it had previously received in an If-Modified-Since header. The
server compares this timestamp with the current timestamp of the page,
and since the page is newer it will render and send the page anew.

Your log is consistently missing that last request, so the server never
even has a chance to send out the updated page. For some reason the
browser isn't asking for it.

Can you confirm that the timestamps in the log are correct? (It's
_supposed_ to consistently use GMT, but if your server is set on local
time and something slips through, some things could be an hour off.) I
don't see any obvious inconsistencies, though, and the expiration time
is hardcoded to January 2001 so it shouldn't matter...

Which version of the software are you using? Did you get it from CVS
(when?) or a tarball (which?) Try getting the stable branch from cvs:
"cvs -d:pserver:anonymous at cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/wikipedia -r
stable co phase" or some such incomprehensible command.

I've sometimes had trouble with headers being overridden or not quite
coming out right. If you've got a packet sniffer you can use to check
what's actually on the wire between the server and the client, that
might be a help; it's possible the Expires and/or Cache-Control headers
aren't being set properly. You might try Ethereal (www.ethereal.com)
which has a handy-dandy session reconstruction view, good for looking at
your HTTP steams; also try the current Mozilla Firebird browser and
install the 'Live HTTP headers' extension:
http://texturizer.net/firebird/extensions.html#Live%20HTTP%20Headers

(though of course Firebird might differ in its behavior; a packet
sniffer can check up on any browser.)

As a last-ditch, of course, you can disable client-side caching by
dropping "$wgCachePages = false;" into your LocalSettings. This _should_
force browsers to re-request pages always instead of caching. Well,
hopefully. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Nik wrote:
> Hi there everyone.
>
> I am running Mediawiki here at work on our local intranet. I am loving it,
> apart from one bug that I can't figure out:
>
> If i make a link to a new page, and then I follow that link and add content
> to the new page, then i go back to the 1st page (with the link on it) the
> link will still show up as a blank page (red) and following it will go
> directly to the "edit this page". This happens even if I refresh the page!
> The only way to refresh is to edit the page and save. The same thing happens
> if I view the page on a different computer (I have to go into edit to
> refresh the page, refresh doesnt work by itself).
>
> Bog standard redhat 8 almost, with php + MySQL. Server connected to a router
> (no cache I can see) going directly to 4 client computers. All computers are
> set to check for new pages every visit. IE6 latest version running on 98 and
> XP.
>
> I run MRBS on the same server, and I have no problems with it. I would have
> thought if it was a cache problem, it would affect the MRBS as well.
>
> I havent done the mod_rewrite thing maybe thats what is the problem? I can't
> appear to get mod_rewrite working properly, and the patch in the phase3
> instalation wouldn't patch the mod_rewrite files at all.
>
> If anyone has any ideas or can help, i would be most gratefull.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nik

The problem is not obvious to me on first sight. Maybe it's obvious to
someone else, but in the meantime, could you please provide us with some
debugging info? Put this in wiki.phtml after the includes if it's not
already there:

# Useful debug output
wfDebug( "\nStart request\n" );
wfDebug( "$REQUEST_METHOD $REQUEST_URI\n" );
$headers = getallheaders();
foreach ($headers as $name => $value) {
	wfDebug( "$name: $value\n" );
}
wfDebug( "\n" );

Now follow a link to a non-existent article, create the article, go back
to the original page and hit reload. Then grab the debugging info for
those requests from the debug log file. By default that is
upload/log_dlJbnMZb.

-- Tim Starling <../t/starling/physics/unimelb/edu/au>


subject: [WikiEN-l] What constitutes a copyvio?

body:
--- "Alex R." <alex756 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> The 108 notice is the notice frequenters to physical
> paper libraries
> often encounter. Usually the notice is affixed to
> the photocopy
> machines. At the NYPL (New York Public Libary) the
> notice has actually
> appeared on each photocopy page, marginally on the
> copy and the NYPL
> has stopped allowing individuals to make copies,
> they must order the copies
> from the Copyright service in the Main Library on
> 42nd Street. The glass
> platen
> has the photocopy notice pasted to it, so all copies
> have the notice on it.
> You also have to sign a form stating that you are
> aware of the copyright
> law.
> Most libraries still allow self service photocopying
> and they just put a
> notice
>  near the photocopy machine. I often see them in law
> libraries:
>
> "NOTICE: Photocopys may be protected by Copyright
> Title 17 United States
> Code."
>
> This section was advocated by library association
> lobbyists who were worried
> that libraries might be held responsible for
> copyright violations that
> occurred
> on their premises due to the proliferation of
> photocopy machines. It is seen
> as
> a way to give notice to the person that their use of
> copying devices
> provided
> by the library or archive, may result in potential
> copyright infringement.
>
> The original requirement was either to provide a
> copy of the notice from the
> work
> (i.e. copy the copyright notice page when any
> photocopies were made by
> library
> staff or to affix a notice) the law was interpreted
> different ways and there
> was
> not one way in which it was applied.
>
> THE DMCA clarifed the confusion about the notice
> that was required and the
> legal opinion your cited below Jimmy deals with the
> minimal notice
> requirements,
> i.e.  "a legend stating that the work may be
> protected by copyright" if
> there is
> no notice on the work itself (the copy is only of a
> page out of a book is a
> good
> example and it seems this might apply to the kind of
> potential infringement
> that
> occur when people paste stuff from copyrighted web
> sites onto Wikipedia that
> later end up in the history pages.
>
> This article gives a pretty good background and
> explanation of the
> provision:
> http://www.copyright.iupui.edu/super_copying.htm. It
> is pretty clear to me,
> but then again IAAL!
>
> Also 108(f) might be a good reason to place a notice
> on all of Wikipedia
> as it will put users on notice that it is there
> responsiblity to check
> copyright
> (actually this is equivalent to a copyright warranty
> disclaimer, though
> specifically
> mentioning sec. 108 might give Wikipedia some added
> protection, it is
> another
> argument to use if infringement is alleged).
>
> Alex756

I don't want to have to say on every page "We might
not have written this, so you should use it as if it
was coppied from something". And a cryptic "Use of
Wikipedia is protected under Title 17" won't do
anything, except placate the non-existant lawyers who
are prosecuting us for temporary copyright infringment
that we've fixed by the time it goes to court.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Nik

body:
> Tim Starling  wrote:
> The problem is not obvious to me on first sight. Maybe it's obvious to
> someone else, but in the meantime, could you please provide us with some
> debugging info? Put this in wiki.phtml after the includes if it's not
> already there:
>
> # Useful debug output
> wfDebug( "\nStart request\n" );
> wfDebug( "$REQUEST_METHOD $REQUEST_URI\n" );
> $headers = getallheaders();
> foreach ($headers as $name => $value) {
> wfDebug( "$name: $value\n" );
> }
> wfDebug( "\n" );
>
> Now follow a link to a non-existent article, create the article, go back
> to the original page and hit reload. Then grab the debugging info for
> those requests from the debug log file. By default that is
> upload/log_dlJbnMZb.

Cheers Tim, here is an extract from the logfile that is the section where I
did the actions you asked. I also have attached the full file.

Start request
GET /wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Nik
Host: 10.0.0.2
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130
Accept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=
0.8,video/x-mng,image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,text/css,*/*;q=0.1
Accept-Language: en-us, en;q=0.50
Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate, compress;q=0.9
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1, utf-8;q=0.66, *;q=0.66
Keep-Alive: 300
Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Nik&action=edit
Cookie: PHPSESSID=ca20f2fd505078547d2d0e81c0dabfb3
We're confused.
tryFileCache() - not cacheable

** private caching; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:38:29 GMT **

20030912093830 0001.195 /wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Nik anon

Start request
GET /wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Testdebug&action=edit
Host: 10.0.0.2
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130
Accept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=
0.8,video/x-mng,image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,text/css,*/*;q=0.1
Accept-Language: en-us, en;q=0.50
Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate, compress;q=0.9
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1, utf-8;q=0.66, *;q=0.66
Keep-Alive: 300
Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Nik
Cookie: PHPSESSID=ca20f2fd505078547d2d0e81c0dabfb3

** no caching **

20030912093926 0004.547 /wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Testdebug&action=edit anon

Start request

POST /wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Testdebug&action=submit
Host: 10.0.0.2
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130
Accept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=
0.8,video/x-mng,image/png,image/jpeg,image/gif;q=0.2,text/css,*/*;q=0.1
Accept-Language: en-us, en;q=0.50
Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate, compress;q=0.9
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1, utf-8;q=0.66, *;q=0.66
Keep-Alive: 300
Referer: http://10.0.0.2/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Testdebug&action=edit
Cookie: PHPSESSID=ca20f2fd505078547d2d0e81c0dabfb3
Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded

Content-Length: 66

** no caching **
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: log_dlJbnMZb
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 88410 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20030912/284e2e07/attachment.obj>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Distributed system.

body:
Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
  > Hi.
  >
  > I know ideas for a distributed Wikipedia have been discussed here
before, but I
  > haven't seen the following angle before (this may just be because I
don't read
  > my mail carefully enough of course):
  >
  > Let's say you have 10 Wikipedia servers. All of them dispense
articles for
  > reading directly. When an article is about to be edited, the title is
hashed,
  > and the corresponding server is contacted.
  >
  > That way, each article "belongs" on one of X server, so a lot of
consistency
  > problems disappear. That server can again notify the others about
changes in
  > its "own" articles.
  >
  > If a server goes down, it's not the end of the world, an Xth of the
articles
  > aren't editable for a while. The downed server's "lease" can be
revoked after
  > an hour, perhaps.
  >
  > While I don't have the capacity to implement this myself (just
fending off the
  > "send patches"), it doesn't appear to be such a gigantic departure
from the
  > existing system. (Yes, big. But not rewrite.)

This sounds like a good idea, but we have two servers. Are you
offering to donate the other 8?

  > Wouldn't it be worth looking into? It seems increased demand eats up
every
  > regular measure taken (kind of like congested highways becoming even
more
  > congested when they're expanded).

We have a dirt road. When we start building the highway, we can talk
about onramps.

-- Tim Starling <../t/starling/physics/unimelb/edu/au>


body:
I see 'Source: http://fr.wikipedia.org' just below the
list of topics after
clicking the "Encyclopedie" link...
and if I click 'Biologie', at the bottom of the
article is:
"R?cup?r?e de
"http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Biologie&search="
Derni?re modification de cette page : 8 sep 2003 ?
09:45. Tous les textes
sont disponibles sous les termes de la Licence de
documentation libre GNU .
"
Neither credit is very prominent, but they're there
(now, at least)...

-- Jake

Someone wrote to him I think, and complained there
were nowhere a link to the encyclopedia. He visited us
at our pump, and said he had forgotten to put a link
to the encyclopedia, and would do so (apparently he
did :-)).

So, the little credit we had first has improved. At
least, there is a link to the encyclopedia now. I
think some people still think that any article should
have a direct link as well. I would like someone more
knowledgable to tell me if this is true.

He also said he would change the main page design if
we asked him too.

Finally, he said that instead of searching wikipedia
database for each request (this is how it works right
now), he was in the process of downloading our whole
database to put it directly onto his website server.

Thanks

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
>
>We are delighted by see fr.wikipedia used as source.
>Nevertheless, certain questions arise.
>
>Some editors estimate that according to GFDL'S, there
>should obligatorily be a link to the original article,
>to preserve the access of the history, to check the
>authorship of the article.  Is this true?
>
>In addition, there is no link towards Wikip?dia on
>this website, or to any article of Wikipedia.  Only,
>one partially broken and extr?mement discrete link for
>each article.  Is this ok?

R?cup?r?e de "http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Droit&search="
Derni?re modification de cette page : 10 sep 2003 ? 20:03. Tous les textes
sont disponibles sous les termes de la Licence de documentation libre GNU .

Here's a copy of the link and notice at the bottom of the article on law.
In this case the link works. My experience on Internet-Encyclopedia is that
is is very easy to make a mistake in the link. You have to always check and
correct it or you will have a bunch of broken links. They need notice to be
more careful. The language Licence de documentation libre GNU is a link to
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%E9dia:Copyright which would seem to
serve.

Fred.

>
>It is also normal that figure always in footer the
>mention of copyright of ebabylone?
>
>
>What do you think ?

Normal unconscious behavior as it can legitimately refer to only the
material on the page other than the Wikipedia article.

Fred


from_name: Jake Nelson

body:
I see 'Source: http://fr.wikipedia.org' just below the list of topics after
clicking the "Encyclopedie" link...
and if I click 'Biologie', at the bottom of the article is:
"R?cup?r?e de "http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Biologie&search="
Derni?re modification de cette page : 8 sep 2003 ? 09:45. Tous les textes
sont disponibles sous les termes de la Licence de documentation libre GNU .
"
Neither credit is very prominent, but they're there (now, at least)...

-- Jake


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Distributed system.

body:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 02:44:46AM +0200, Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I know ideas for a distributed Wikipedia have been discussed here before, but I
> haven't seen the following angle before (this may just be because I don't read
> my mail carefully enough of course):
>
> Let's say you have 10 Wikipedia servers. All of them dispense articles for
> reading directly. When an article is about to be edited, the title is hashed,
> and the corresponding server is contacted.
>
> That way, each article "belongs" on one of X server, so a lot of consistency
> problems disappear. That server can again notify the others about changes in
> its "own" articles.
>
> If a server goes down, it's not the end of the world, an Xth of the articles
> aren't editable for a while. The downed server's "lease" can be revoked after
> an hour, perhaps.
>
> While I don't have the capacity to implement this myself (just fending off the
> "send patches"), it doesn't appear to be such a gigantic departure from the
> existing system. (Yes, big. But not rewrite.)
>
> Wouldn't it be worth looking into? It seems increased demand eats up every
> regular measure taken (kind of like congested highways becoming even more
> congested when they're expanded).

Such design was already proposed (like by me), but there would still
be a problem with parts of Wikipedia that require information from all
servers - RecentChanges, watchlists, etc. If you have some idea how to
elegantly solve the problem with that, please tell us.


from_name: Steve Vertigum

body:
--- martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> Talking of which, I'll be delighted to see his ban
> lifted. He has his weaknesses, as do
> we all, but I've been able to work with his previous
> reincarnations, and I'm sure I'll be
> able to work with him again. Indeed, considerably
> easier without the encumbrance of
> a ban.

I wonder (just for an instant) what Zoe would think.

~S~

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Delirium

body:
Merritt L. Perkins wrote:

>
>1. Instead of reading an Encyclopedia article from the screen would it be
>nice to be able to lean back and have it read. to you by a synthetic
>voice? I believe that such programs already exist. Would anything need to
>be done to the articles so that such programs would work?.
>. My computer has such a text to voice program in Dragon
>NaturallySpeaking 7 but it does not want to work for me. Perhaps it is
>not compatible with XP.
>
>
This certainly sounds like a good idea.  It should be possible with
already available text-to-speech programs, but if there is anything
particularly problematic about Wikipedia's current formatting that makes
it difficult to use, it would be interesting to find out about it.

>2. While it would not be part of Wikipedia would free lessons in foreign
>languages be a good idea? Once you get started you need to get practice
>using the language and Encyclopedia articles might furnish such practice.
>Is anybody interested?
>Just daydreaming.
>
>
This sounds like a good project fot the WikiBooks project --- producing
fully multimedia textbooks to learn a foreign language.

-Mark


from_name: Alex T.

subject: [WikiEN-l] What constitutes a copyvio?

body:
From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com>

> I don't want to have to say on every page "We might
> not have written this, so you should use it as if it
> was coppied from something". And a cryptic "Use of
> Wikipedia is protected under Title 17" won't do
> anything, except placate the non-existant lawyers who
> are prosecuting us for temporary copyright infringment
> that we've fixed by the time it goes to court.
> LDan

But aren't the history pages an archive? At least we could
do that, no? It would not have to be written on every page,
it would just have to be added onto the renamed Copyrights
(copyrights and warranty disclaimers) page.

Alex756


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Distributed system.

body:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Tim Starling wrote:

> Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:

>   > I know ideas for a distributed Wikipedia have been discussed here
>   > haven't seen the following angle before (this may just be because I
>   > my mail carefully enough of course):
>
>   > [ Idea. ]

> This sounds like a good idea, but we have two servers. Are you
> offering to donate the other 8?

I have already seen mails from several people volunteering bandwidth and server
space around the world here.

Wikipedia is such a useful, likeable and interesting project that I can't
imagine it would be hard to find lots of people with large servers and fast
lines to help out.

Just think of the guys at universities running those gigantic FTP mirrors.

I don't think the lack of servers it the reason Wikipedia isn't a distributed
system.

>   > Wouldn't it be worth looking into? It seems increased demand eats up
>   > regular measure taken (kind of like congested highways becoming even
>   > congested when they're expanded).

> We have a dirt road. When we start building the highway, we can talk
> about onramps.

Building capacity in small incremental steps hasn't given Wikipedia more than a
month's respite or two before things are bogged down again. I think a
distribued version could more or less do away with the capacity problem. (Since
each article lives a separate life with it's own history, Wikipedia is actually
ideal for running across a bunch of servers.) I don't think clever cacheing or
two new Opteron processors can.

-- Daniel


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

body:
On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 10:38:12PM -0400, Merritt L. Perkins wrote:
>
> 1. Instead of reading an Encyclopedia article from the screen would it be
> nice to be able to lean back and have it read. to you by a synthetic
> voice? I believe that such programs already exist. Would anything need to
> be done to the articles so that such programs would work?.
> . My computer has such a text to voice program in Dragon
> NaturallySpeaking 7 but it does not want to work for me. Perhaps it is
> not compatible with XP.
> 2. While it would not be part of Wikipedia would free lessons in foreign
> languages be a good idea? Once you get started you need to get practice
> using the language and Encyclopedia articles might furnish such practice.
> Is anybody interested?

In the German mailing-list I've suggest spoken articles a few weeks ago.
I've tried to contact a German blind association but got no response so the
idea went sleeping.
In my opinion human read articles should be much better than synthetic ones.
Not only for blind, but also for learners (no matter if it's due to
analphabetism or foreign language) that would be useful.
Technic ideas would be the ogg-format for encoding the spoken words
and something like bittorent to distributed it (to lessen traffic
for wikipedia).

One central question is how exactly the same article and spoken words
must be. For learners it surely will matter.

ciao, tom
--
http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
   -.-       http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
   /|>	        Urlaub? http://www.tomk32.de/fewo-koll/
   / \              http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Printable version

body:
So, I noticed that if you select Printable Version on something (as I often
do so I can copy & paste, as highlighting is fairly broken for me on the
normal page layout), it discards any other parameters, as in &target=foo on
the Contributions page (leading it to give a 'no target specified'
message), old versions of an article instead show current, etc. One can
still punch them back into the address bar, but this is suboptimal...

I use IE6 and Cologne Blue, for future reference.
-- Jake


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Backup (was Re: I'm shopping today for upgrades)

body:
On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 05:29, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Tim Starling wrote:
> > Does anyone back up the image and oldimage tables, the user table, the
> > watchlist table and the sitestats table? How often are the images
> > themselves backed up?
>
> Good question.  I backup everything using rsync to my home computer.

Just a note: rsync would work great for images uploads and general
stuff, but it won't work for the live database files. These files are
being changed constantly, so any attempt to copy them while MySQL is
running and making updates to them is likely to net you only a corrupted
copy. The tables could perhaps be locked during the rsync, but I don't
know how long it would take to rsync the ~15 gigabyte innodb table
space.

One thing to think about is the binary update log (currently not enabled
on pliny). MySQL can keep a log of all updates to the tables it manages,
for the purpose of sending the updates on to slave servers to keep
replicated copies of the databases up to date.

It may be possible to extract just the updates to the cur and old tables
and produce runnable SQL which can be made available for download for
nightly incremental backup updates.

(Also, a complete replicated server could be set up.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk

body:
Tuf-Kat says:
> On another note, there has been doubt about his
> actual/perceived/desired gender.  Since he is now
> apparently going by Adam, does that mean he would like
> us to refer to him as a male?

My understanding of transgender etiquette is that the best person to ask would be
Adam. No doubt he will be able to explain the situation to us once he's unbanned.

Talking of which, I'll be delighted to see his ban lifted. He has his weaknesses, as do
we all, but I've been able to work with his previous reincarnations, and I'm sure I'll be
able to work with him again. Indeed, considerably easier without the encumbrance of
a ban.

-Martin "MyRedDice" Harper


from_name: Merritt L. Perkins

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Text to voice programs

body:
I don't know what operating system other people have on their computers.
I am using Microsoft XP home edition. It has a text to voice program with
a voice called Microsoft Sam that can have the speed and volume adjusted.
It is intended to be used to check your work for mistakes after you run a
spell check. In this way you can catch mistakes that you have overlooked
while reading the text.
. The voice on Dragon?s NaturallySpeaking 7 is Jennifer and the speed,
pitch, and volume can be adjusted
I have a huge 21 in. monitor and still find text a little hard to read.
If a person is totally blind he would not be able to use a computer
because he could not tell he is doing. If his eyesight is somewhat
impaired it can be a big help.
I know the program is on my computer but I don't know how to use it.
There must be instructions someplace but I don't know where. Probably
most operating systems have such a program and have had for years
. If you want a program to read Encyclopedia articles or e-mails you
probably already have the program on your computer, just learn how to use
it.
As far as reading German is concerned it should be much easier than
English.
Having Encyclopedia articles read by a human voice would make the files
so large that it would be impractical. They would be many times the size
of the printed text. How many people remember when a monitor screen was
divided into to 30 rows and 80 columns of cells and a cell would hold one
character. Characters were perhaps 5 wide by 9 high and defined by an
ASCII number. Now word processing programs are much more complicated.
Merritt L. Perkins


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia.com is dead, long live wikipedia.org!

body:
I've transferred the backed-up UseMod-based (formerly wikipedia.com) wikis
onto pliny and got them up and running on their wikipedia.org addresses.
The wikipedia.com URLs are temporarily dead-end links, but once the DNS is
transferred they should point to the correct location again.

Interlanguage links should be correct, but any manual links should be
corrected, well, manually.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
james duffy wrote:

>> Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons] and I have been having a long discussion, and he would
>> like for me to reinstate him.  He is of the belief that I am the only
>> one who would be against this, although he does allow as there may be
>> some complaints from those who have been most strongly against him in
>> the past.
>>
>> However, at this point in time, I have no objections to his return,
>> and would like to reinstate him under the name 'Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]'.
>>
>> The interpersonal courtesies that would be expected of him at that
>> point would be the same as expected of anyone.  That is to say, he
>> would not be on any sort of extra-special probation, although of
>> course he should be aware that some people will be wary of him at
>> first.
>
>
> If Adam
> 1. comes back as Adam,
> 2. edits as Adam and /only/ as Adam,
> 3. vows not to revert to running multiple personae
> 4. avoids personalised attacks on those he perceives as his 'enemies'
>
> then I will support his reinstatement.

I have no problem with Adam's return.  I wouldn't consider that using
the user name Adam to be a requirement, but whateve name he chooses he
should use consistently.  I support JT's points 3 and 4.

I would suggest that he cultivate a few ties with some Wikipedians that
he feels he can trust, and that he learn to back off in an edit war
while he consults with those that he trusts.

Ec


body:
On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 15:33, tarquin wrote:
> Yikes!
> I'd better get back to work on designs!

Mwooh-haa-haa-haaaaa! My evil plan for making other people work has come
to fruition!

> I've been looking around and it seems there is no solution to the
> problem of the page footer only occupying space beneath the article --
> ie not filling the full width because of the quicklink bar.
>
> The problem is that we cannot guarantee which of the two columns
> (article & quickbar) will always be the longest. All the CSS layouts
> I've seen that put a footer beneath columns require one to be longer
> than the other to do the "pushing down" of the footer -- and stub
> articles are often shorter than the quickbar.

Hmm, that shouldn't be necessary...

The simplest thing is to make the sidebar column a float, and give the
footer a clear: both (see attached file for example). There are a couple
problems with this, though: the sidebar has to come before the body in
the source (which is bad for keyboard users & voice browsers). Also if
you have a clear inside the body div, it seems to zip all the way down
to the bottom of the sidebar. Bah!

Another possibility is to use Javascript to reposition the sidebar.
(Ewwww!)

Or, of course, you could use a table. ;)

> Anyway, I'm going to look at the skins I made with a critical eye --
> comments on them would be welcome :)

Broadly speaking, I quite like Montparnasse. It's got the feel of what I
liked from Cologne Blue, but things don't run together so much.

>From a technical standpoint I have to say that right-handed sidebars are
more problematic than left-handed sidebars; oversized images, tables, or
preformatted text can overflow into the sidebar, either under/over it or
pushing it offscreen. Putting the default sidebar on the left may be
cleaner.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20030913/5d0b881e/attachment.html>


from_name: Gutza

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Suggestions: simple dump and simple update

body:
I think Wikipedia could further open up to external interaction if it
provided simple means to interact with the data. For instance, serving
pages as XML or even plain text could be one of these ways. That way,
third parties could allow users to check out Wikipedia content easily.
Also, updating the data via simple methods, such as XML strings sent via
POST following the same DTD would allow third parties to also integrate
this feature.

You may argue that simple data posting would tempt vandals--a determined
vandal can just as easily hack the system as it stands right now,
writing a script to send zillions of regular HTTP POST requests isn't
such a big feat. Formalizing the data in a DTD on the other hand could
tempt serious third parties to join the game.

Is there anything like this already implemented and I haven't been able
to stumble across the documentation?

Gutza


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Text to voice programs

body:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 11:56:38PM -0400, Merritt L. Perkins wrote:
> Having Encyclopedia articles read by a human voice would make the files
> so large that it would be impractical. They would be many times the size
> of the printed text. How many people remember when a monitor screen was
> divided into to 30 rows and 80 columns of cells and a cell would hold one
> character. Characters were perhaps 5 wide by 9 high and defined by an
> ASCII number. Now word processing programs are much more complicated.

And simple Word-Documents exceed 1MB easily.
Recording voice with about 64kbit/s sounds good and don't use so much space.
For the first time only "finished" articles would be spoken. And if you're
realy in need for spoken words, I'm sure you don't care about file-sizes.

We can also use sound editors for extending the spoken articles or edit it.

ciao, tom
--
http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
   -.-       http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
   /|>	        Urlaub? http://www.tomk32.de/fewo-koll/
   / \              http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] English Wikipedia not responding

body:
I restarted apache and all seems joyful now.

Jens Frank wrote:

> SSH seems to be available, but no repsonse
> on HTTP.
>
> JeLuF
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


body:
Can I just grab the tarballs?  Would that cover the bulk of what needs
backing up?

There's no special need, I think, to backup the software (which is on
sourceforge).  Probably a backup of the apache conf files, /etc/, the
mailing lists... what else?

Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 05:29, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > Tim Starling wrote:
> > > Does anyone back up the image and oldimage tables, the user table, the
> > > watchlist table and the sitestats table? How often are the images
> > > themselves backed up?
> >
> > Good question.  I backup everything using rsync to my home computer.
>
> Just a note: rsync would work great for images uploads and general
> stuff, but it won't work for the live database files. These files are
> being changed constantly, so any attempt to copy them while MySQL is
> running and making updates to them is likely to net you only a corrupted
> copy. The tables could perhaps be locked during the rsync, but I don't
> know how long it would take to rsync the ~15 gigabyte innodb table
> space.
>
> One thing to think about is the binary update log (currently not enabled
> on pliny). MySQL can keep a log of all updates to the tables it manages,
> for the purpose of sending the updates on to slave servers to keep
> replicated copies of the databases up to date.
>
> It may be possible to extract just the updates to the cur and old tables
> and produce runnable SQL which can be made available for download for
> nightly incremental backup updates.
>
> (Also, a complete replicated server could be set up.)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] What constitutes a copyvio?

body:
--- "Alex T." <alex756 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> From: "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
>
> > I don't want to have to say on every page "We
> might
> > not have written this, so you should use it as if
> it
> > was coppied from something". And a cryptic "Use of
> > Wikipedia is protected under Title 17" won't do
> > anything, except placate the non-existant lawyers
> who
> > are prosecuting us for temporary copyright
> infringment
> > that we've fixed by the time it goes to court.
> > LDan
>
> But aren't the history pages an archive? At least we
> could
> do that, no? It would not have to be written on
> every page,
> it would just have to be added onto the renamed
> Copyrights
> (copyrights and warranty disclaimers) page.
>
> Alex756

Still, it would either send the message that we didn't
write it or not send a message at all.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] What constitutes a copyvio?

body:
--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Still, it would either send the message that we
> didn't
> write it or not send a message at all.
> LDan

It would be some reasonable protection (just in case)
under established law. What could be wrong with that?
Knowing such a thing lets us loosen our belts a little
bit -- allowing for some better circulation and stress
reduction.  Now if we can all take our shoes and socks
off...

:)
~S~ <==Wavy lines indicate "vertigo."

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] New LanguageDe.php in CVS

body:
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 11:19, Thomas Corell wrote:
> Thomas Corell schrieb:
> > I commited a new Version of the LanguageDe.php file to CVS, with around
> > fifty new translations.
> Modified some phrases and integrated modifications from C. Dietl
> (Tracker ID: 799941).
>
> Please install the new file and update the tracker. 799941-> solved.

Copied to stable branch and installed.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Merritt L. Perkins wrote

>
>1. Instead of reading an Encyclopedia article from the screen would it be
>nice to be able to lean back and have it read. to you by a synthetic
>voice? I believe that such programs already exist. Would anything need to
>be done to the articles so that such programs would work?.
>. My computer has such a text to voice program in Dragon
>NaturallySpeaking 7 but it does not want to work for me. Perhaps it is
>not compatible with XP.
>
Resolving this kind of conflict may be user specific.  It will depend on
the requirements of the voice program software. Normally I might suggest
that you read the manual, but in this case, given the nature of the
software, you should be able to listen to the manual. :-)   It should
tell you what it requires of the texts that it reads to you.  I would
assume that it could handle plain text.  If you can feed the printable
version of an article, it should work.

Reading a text with your eyes seems a lot more efficient than having it
read aloud.  There is, of course, a distinction to be made between
visual and aural learners.  Nevertheless, given the quantity of material
that must sometimes be reviewed, when we read a text we can
automatically skim over less important details.  This luxury is
unavailable when every word of a text must be vocalized.  To attain the
same speed, it would need to be read at a pace beyond comprehension.

>2. While it would not be part of Wikipedia would free lessons in foreign
>languages be a good idea? Once you get started you need to get practice
>using the language and Encyclopedia articles might furnish such practice.
>Is anybody interested?
>
There is already a good beginning for a Polish language course on
Wiktionary, though I expect it will in due course be moved to Wikibooks.
 If I understand correctly vocalizing programs still need to be trained
to the user's accent.  I'm sure that the entire Wikimedia community will
be interested in your reports about your efforts in rendering a language
which appears totally unpronounceable to many English eyes.  Indeed, the
difficulties may be illusory since Polish children can pronounce their
language perfectly well before they learn to read.  Compare this with
the fact that English speaking children have no problems distinguishing
between "tough", "through", "thorough", "though", etc.long before they
learn to read.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Pronunciations and IPA/SAMPA

body:
--- David Friedland <david at nohat.net> wrote:
> The American Heritage Dictionary gives the following
> explanation of
> their pronunciation scheme:
>
> "For most words a single set of symbols can
> represent the
> pronunciation found in each regional variety of
> American English. You
> will supply those features of your own regional
> speech that are called
> forth by the pronunciation key in this Dictionary"
>
> And it seems like a panacea for the pronunciation
> problem. But it's not,
> because some words simply have different underlying
> representations in
> different dialects, and the system only works for
> dialects that are
> roughly the same except for a few sound changes. It
> fails for wildly or
> even mildly divergent dialects. The American
> Heritage Dictionary system
> sweeps this problem under the rug by saying "The
> pronunciations are
> exclusively those of educated speech", which, to my
> mind, is a cop-out,
> and not a satisfactory solution for Wikipedia.
>
> However, the question of dialect remains. Obviously
> listing
> pronunciations in all possible dialects is not a
> reasonable solution,
> and indeed, nor are any of the systems used in
> American dictionaries. I
> recognize that the general task of specifying a
> pronunciation that
> speakers of any dialect will automatically speak in
> their dialect is not
> ideally handled by IPA. However, I have do not know
> of any system
> advocated by linguists other than what phonologists
> call "broad
> transcription" using IPA. Can you point me to a book
> or paper, written
> by linguists, that specifies such a system for
> English, and advocates
> its use by and for general (non-academic) readers?
>
> I have never encoutered such a system, and I doubt
> that one exists.
> Barring the existence of a standard system, I don't
> really see that
> Wikipedia has any other options besides IPA for
> specifying
> pronunciations. Certainly I hope no one thinks
> Wikipedia should invent
> its own system. When it comes to standards, it
> should be our job to
> follow them and describe them, not create them.
>
> So I advocate having IPA transcriptions for standard
> dialects (like
> Standard American English and Received
> Pronunciation), and having
> special pages describing how the various nonstardard
> dialects differ
> both phonetically and phonemically from the
> standards. I don't know much
> about morphophones and I'm not sure it's a concept
> widely accepted by
> linguists.
>
> PS: I have made a page on meta called
> [[Pronunciations]] and am going
> through the list archives and posting links to
> relevant discussions
> there. I'm not sure what the policy should be
> regarding where further
> discussion should occur, so if you want to respond,
> do so either here or
> on the list.
>
> -- David [[User:Nohat]]

What about the system Nupedia uses?
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikitech-l] fulltext searxh disabled in es.wikipedia

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Look at those barcharts! http://de.wikipedia.org/stats/usage_200309.html

These numbers for the German Wikipedia are about 15% - 25% higher than
those for susning.nu, for the same first 12 days of September 2003.

I think it is fair to admit that the German Wikipedia is taking
over the position as the world's 2nd biggest wiki, even though the
number of articles doesn't really reach susning's yet.  With the
German speaking  population being ten times bigger than Sweden's this
is inevitable, only a matter of time.

However, the "Suchausdr?cke" / "Search strings" (hits with a
referrer URL from a search engine) are much lower on the German
Wikipedia than on susning.nu.  How come?  Does Wikipedia's
configuration of Webalizer fail to recognize some (German) search
engines?  Or do Germans don't use search engines?  Even the Swedish
Wikipedia has more search string hits than the German Wikipedia.

de.wikipedia.org:
  1 	240 	0.64% 	wikipedia
  2 	77 	0.21% 	carolina kl??ft
  3 	67 	0.18% 	adolf hitler
  4 	62 	0.17% 	klitoris
  5 	59 	0.16% 	gabriel daniel fahrenheit
  6 	58 	0.16% 	herman hollerith
  7 	55 	0.15% 	brigitte nielsen
  8 	55 	0.15% 	griechische mythologie
  9 	52 	0.14% 	postleitzahl
  10 	51 	0.14% 	leni riefenstahl

susning.nu:
  1 	1397 	0.83% 	anna lindh
  2 	954 	0.57% 	lunarstorm
  3 	529 	0.31% 	hanna ljungberg
  4 	512 	0.30% 	fjortis
  5 	456 	0.27% 	adsl
  6 	449 	0.27% 	per gessle
  7 	399 	0.24% 	kazaa lite
  8 	386 	0.23% 	susning
  9 	331 	0.20% 	fjortisfylla
  10 	331 	0.20% 	kazaa

sv.wikipedia.org:
  1 	299 	0.49% 	spindlar
  2 	287 	0.47% 	landsnummer
  3 	270 	0.44% 	medeltiden
  4 	261 	0.42% 	borderline
  5 	245 	0.40% 	bo holmberg
  6 	243 	0.39% 	sexst?llningar
  7 	236 	0.38% 	periodiska systemet
  8 	232 	0.38% 	anna lindh
  9 	212 	0.34% 	eiffeltornet
  10 	204 	0.33% 	eddie meduza

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


subject: [Wikitech-l] mod_throttle

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 18:04, Brion Vibber wrote:
> In an attempt to keep things moderately under control on en, I've
> installed mod_throttle onto larousse's apache:
> http://www.snert.com/Software/mod_throttle/

I'm slightly suspicious that mod_throttle may have been a culprit in the
recent webserver croakings. Who knows...

Anyway I've changed the configuration again, trying to find a more
appropriate setting... I've set it to 'Document' mode, which instead of
steadily increading delays on connections immediately returns a 503
'Service Unavailable' error. In theory at least it shouldn't count
stylesheets, images etc in its counts of how many connections you're
making.

The current setting is:
  ThrottleClientIP 1024 Document 20 60

which:
* keeps track of up to 1024 ip addresses at a time
* has a timeout period of 60 seconds
* cuts you off after 20 page requests (waiting an average of 3 seconds
between requests should let you go infinitely)

If you hit the limit, you see this error message:
http://www.wikipedia.org/503.html

I don't know if a hard cutoff like this is worse or better, but at least
it's less *mysterious* than just a really really slow server.

If anyone's hitting the limit more frequently than they think they
should in regular usage, please say something. (Note that random pages,
page saves, and 'go' searches will count double, because you get
redirected from one page to another).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Distributed system.

body:
Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
> I know ideas for a distributed Wikipedia have been discussed here before,

I hate to kill good ideas and discussion, and I'd love to work out the
technical details of a distributed solution, but it's also extremely
frustrating to work on a complicated solution when it turns out that
nobody really needs it, so let's run through the old arguments again,
just like a check list.

Yes, application-level distribution has been discussed, but even
though nobody thinks it is right out impossible it has never been
implemented, because it doesn't solve any problem that we have.
The first question that a proposal must answer is: What problem are
you trying to solve?

Wikipedia itself is the solution to a problem: How to create a free
encyclopedia, especially without getting bogged down in the editorial
process of Nupedia.  For this, standard components are used, such as
Apache, PHP, and MySQL.  We could invent our own programming language
or database, but we don't, becuase it could get us sidetracked, make
us lose focus of the original goal.  However, Wikipedia has developed
its own wiki software, abandoning the existing UseModWiki software.
So there is a fine line between inventing the new and using the
existing.  The innovations in the Wikipedia PHP script, that makes a
difference from UseModWiki, are mainly aimed at supporting the
editorial process (namespaces, statistics, uploads, etc.), or user
experience (skins) and not towards performance architecture.

As far as I know, there are no distributed wikis in the world.
Wikipedia is the world's biggest wiki, and would be the first to need
such a solution, but so far runs at a single site.

One "popular" problem to discuss is work load and response times.
However, with the current software architecture (PHP + Apache + MySQL)
it is possible to distribute the work load over a large number of
computers at a single site without any application-level distribution.
It is also possible to identify software bottle necks and improve the
performance without adding hardware.  Wikipedia has been "slow"
before, when it had far less work load than today, and some people
thought this was the end of the road, but software improvements showed
that it was possible to handle the load.

In addition to the technical challenge, application-level distribution
brings many new problems with contract law and administration: Who
runs each site?  What are the legal contracts between those
responsible for each site?  What to do if a site becomes unavailable
or goes out of business?  Etc.  Those problems are avoided by sticking
to a single site.  If you propose a distributed solution, you would
have to include answers to these administrative and legal questions.

Still, there is a possibility that new kinds of problems can be solved
by a distributed architecture.  What about the Russian users who have
to pay extra for accessing international websites, but can use Russian
websites within their flat fee subscription plan?  If this problem can
be addressed by a distributed server inside Russia, you would have to
answer who can run it and what does it cost to keep it updated if
Internet traffic across the border is not flat rate?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


from_name: Toby Bartels

body:
LittleDan wrote:

>Yes. He is and has always been male. We've sometimes
>refered to him as female because some of his aliases
>were female, but that was only to trick us.

To trick us???  You don't know Adam very well, do you?

Read his diary (<qwerty.diaryland.com>).
He uses female personae all the time --
online, he is quite possibly female more often than male now.
It is not just for us that he does this, and not to fool people either --
or not to fool them very well, for we knew his name from the start
(when he posted his email address and website).

If he's posting as Adam, then he's probably using a male persona.
This is too bad, since I think that he's more comfortable as a female.
OTOH, he's also more outspoken as a female,
while perhaps he ought to be more reserved on Wikipedia.
But these are idle speculations; we will learn the truth when he arrives!

-- Toby


from_name: Jens Frank

body:
SSH seems to be available, but no repsonse
on HTTP.

JeLuF


subject:
[Wikitech-l]
	http://www.wikipedia.org/wikistats/FR/TablesWikipediaFR.htm is now
	missing the non-ascii letters

body:
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 18:24, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
> Since today on the fr, de, nl (and probably da:) version of the statistics (http://www.wikipedia.org/wikistats/FR/Sitemap.htm)
> the non-ascii letters are missing or wrong.

I compiled the stats on my Linux box instead of my FreeBSD box...
something weird going on, not sure what. Esperanto and Japanese versions
look okay, looks like just the latin-1 bits are getting corrupt. Sigh...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
David Friedland wrote about morphophones:

>And it seems like a panacea for the pronunciation problem. But it's not,
>because some words simply have different underlying representations in
>different dialects, and the system only works for dialects that are
>roughly the same except for a few sound changes. It fails for wildly or
>even mildly divergent dialects. The American Heritage Dictionary system
>sweeps this problem under the rug by saying "The pronunciations are
>exclusively those of educated speech", which, to my mind, is a cop-out,
>and not a satisfactory solution for Wikipedia.

How do you mean that morphophones fail for mildly divergent dialects?
What is your reason for thinking such a thing?
Surely not that the American Heritage Dictionary didn't take much effort?
I already said that these dictionaries have unsophisticated systems.
The AHD states its limitations: educated American speech only.
This allows them to cut corners on their implementation.

>However, I do not know of any system
>advocated by linguists other than what phonologists call "broad
>transcription" using IPA. Can you point me to a book or paper, written
>by linguists, that specifies such a system for English, and advocates
>its use by and for general (non-academic) readers?

I've cited the original 1962 paper introducing morphophones before;
I'd have to look up the citation in the archives to repeat it,
but you're already going through those so I'll refrain for now.
But that was an academic paper; what I should do now
is try to track down a more recent (1980s) book that I've read,
written by linguists, which advocates its use outside academic settings.

>I have never encoutered such a system, and I doubt that one exists.
>Barring the existence of a standard system, I don't really see that
>Wikipedia has any other options besides IPA for specifying
>pronunciations. Certainly I hope no one thinks Wikipedia should invent
>its own system. When it comes to standards, it should be our job to
>follow them and describe them, not create them.

I'm not sure to what extent there is a /single/ standard system.
There certainly is at least one system in use by linguists.
Probably with variations due to improved understanding over time,
but whether these are coordinated by a single standards body I don't know.
I will try to track this down too.

>PS: I have made a page on meta called [[Pronunciations]] and am going
>through the list archives and posting links to relevant discussions
>there. I'm not sure what the policy should be regarding where further
>discussion should occur, so if you want to respond, do so either here or
>on the list.

OK, I'll watch it.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Pronunciations and IPA/SAMPA


body:
Okay, I think I've got it sorted out. Uploading new version...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Nils Kehrein

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: English Wikipedia not responding

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
>>SSH seems to be available, but no repsonse
>>on HTTP.
> I restarted apache and all seems joyful now.

How about a cronjob to handle these things?

Regards,
Nils.


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] New LanguageDe.php in CVS

body:
Thomas Corell schrieb:

> Hello,
>
> I commited a new Version of the LanguageDe.php file to CVS, with around
> fifty new translations.
Modified some phrases and integrated modifications from C. Dietl
(Tracker ID: 799941).

Please install the new file and update the tracker. 799941-> solved.

Smurf
--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Text to voice programs

body:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:56:38 -0400, Merritt L. Perkins
<mlperkins3 at juno.com> gave utterance to the following:

> Having Encyclopedia articles read by a human voice would make the files
> so large that it would be impractical.

Not if is done via the standard technique: The data is sent to your
computer as words + markup exactly as per a web page, and a client on your
computer renders it as speech.
Unfortunately, there is currently only one true speech browser (which
parses HTML and aural css*) available - Emacspeak for Linux. The rest are
page readers, which more or less speak the text which is output by an HTML
renderer (usually embedded MSIE). Many are unaware of structural markup,
relying on punctuation, and can run together text which has a strong
visual separation.

*aural css allows control of speech properties.

Note that Opera has announce that it is working with IBM on greater
incorporation of speech technology in web browsing. I think its mainly the
sort of stuff where you can interact with a computer via speech on a
cellphone - say when ordering a pizza. The "form" has speech prompts and
your answers are processed via speech recognition.
--
Richard Grevers
Between two evils always pick the one you haven't tried


list: textbook-l

from_name: Connie Davis

subject: [Textbook-l] Broken link on your website

body:
There appears to be a problem on this page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zufall
When we click on your link to: http://www.fh-weingarten.de/iaf/projekte/is/zufall.htm
we get the error: 404 File not found

We last examined your page on Sat Sep 13, 2003 at 09:49:35 PM EDT. If it
has not been updated since then, the link is most likely broken.

We discovered this error during our normal course of website content
checking for one of our search engine clients.

If you would like to receive notifications like this in the future if we
find pages unavailable, click here:
http://scclick.internetseer.com/sitecheck/clickthrough.jsp?I5s57l5h5o5d5k5i5i53M5pPMUg1kPVINH59C5vTLHXyM_L_5aNPD53U5pXTxy5p5b5cKTU5dRX5cTRSHM_wPMH5bDV5cS6tD5eNzwLRHxR5eXx5eKWX6tCI5aXTC53T5p5g=e3

Click here to learn more about us:
http://scclick.internetseer.com/sitecheck/clickthrough.jsp?I5s57l5h5o5d5k5i5i53M5pPMxbdkPVINH59C5vTLHXyM_L_5aNPD53U5pXTxy5p5b5cDV5bKXSSNRDX6u5dIzL5bUSQL5e6mWX6tCI52P5s5e=e3

Sincerely,

Connie Davis
InternetSeer.com
http://www.internetseer.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your email address was found during a prior visit to your website on
09-13-2003. The error listed above was verified from both of our
indexing servers in Philadelphia, Pa. and Los Angeles, Ca. This error could
have been caused by any number of events, including connectivity problems on
our part and/or connectivity problems in the Internet as we tried to reach
your site. This error should not be construed as a guaranteed problem on the
part of your website or hosting company since there are never any guaranteed
connection routes on the Internet.

If would like to be excluded from any potential future contact, click here:
http://scclick.internetseer.com/sitecheck/cancel.jsp?PMX97mkPVINH59C5vTLHXyM_L_5aNPD.e3

##textbook-l at wikipedia.org## SRC=58
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/textbook-l/attachments/20030913/5ae1035d/attachment.htm


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Admin nominations

body:
Hello

Could someone please make User;Looxix an admin on the
french wikipedia ?

Thanks

Anthere

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Admin nominations

body:
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 21:49, Anthere wrote:
> Hello
>
> Could someone please make User;Looxix an admin on the
> french wikipedia ?

Done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 23:07, Jay Bowks wrote:
> Brion,
> Is it possible to get a backup of the ia.wikipedia that I
> could save on my server,

I'll set up a new backup job for them; links will appear on
download.wikipedia.org once it's ready.

> BTW I just tried the ia.wikipedia and
> I got the front page but then it gave me
> a weird message saying I didn't have
> the priviledge of using CGI on the server
> when trying to access Recent Changes.
> But the whole thing seems down once
> more.

I just tried it and it works fine for me:
http://ia.wikipedia.org/wiki.cgi?Recent_Changes

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 23:29, Jay Bowks wrote:
> "Forbidden
> You don't have permission to access /wiki.cgi on this server.
> Apache/1.3.22 Server at nupedia.com Port 80"
>
> When trying to see the index.
> http://ia.wikipedia.com/wiki.cgi?action=index

The .com addresses still point to the dead server. Try:
http://ia.wikipedia.org/wiki.cgi?action=index

Please fix any bad links you come across. The .com links should work
again eventually, but it may take some days to propogate through the DNS
system.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Okay, backup dumps of all the wikis on the old software are now
available: http://XX.wikipedia.org/tarballs/wiki.tar.gz

or all of them in a lump (about 47 megs):
http://download.wikipedia.org/archives/wikipedia-usemod.tar

Since these run fairly light and fast, they'll be updated nightly.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] mod_throttle

body:
On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 14:27, I wrote:
> If anyone's hitting the limit more frequently than they think they
> should in regular usage, please say something.

Angela says she's hitting the limit awful often. I've changed it from 20
hits in 60 seconds to 50 hits in 100 seconds.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Jay Bowks

body:
Brion,
Is it possible to get a backup of the
ia.wikipedia that I could save on my
server, I've been after an archive for
a while and haven't gotten it yet, how
can I go about getting an archived
file of the ia.wikipedia data, and
could you help me get it, I know
you're probably up to the crown
of your head in other projects, but
I'd very much appreciate your answer.
Thanks,
Jay B.

BTW I just tried the ia.wikipedia and
I got the front page but then it gave me
a weird message saying I didn't have
the priviledge of using CGI on the server
when trying to access Recent Changes.
But the whole thing seems down once
more.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>
To: <wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:05 PM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia.com is dead, long live wikipedia.org!

> I've transferred the backed-up UseMod-based (formerly wikipedia.com) wikis
> onto pliny and got them up and running on their wikipedia.org addresses.
> The wikipedia.com URLs are temporarily dead-end links, but once the DNS is
> transferred they should point to the correct location again.
>
> Interlanguage links should be correct, but any manual links should be
> corrected, well, manually.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


body:
From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>
> On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 23:07, Jay Bowks wrote:
> > Brion,
> > Is it possible to get a backup of the ia.wikipedia that I
> > could save on my server,
> I'll set up a new backup job for them; links will appear on
> download.wikipedia.org once it's ready.

Thanks so much, I'll be checking the page
for updates. I appreciate it.

> I just tried it and it works fine for me:
> http://ia.wikipedia.org/wiki.cgi?Recent_Changes
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Yes, I just went there and it seems to
be back up, but I still get

"Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /wiki.cgi on this server.
Apache/1.3.22 Server at nupedia.com Port 80"

When trying to see the index.
http://ia.wikipedia.com/wiki.cgi?action=index

Is this a no-no, it probably takes up quite a
few clicks on the poor Pliny...

The Recent Changes works fine though.
Thanks so much for giving this your attention.
I look forward to getting the archive so much,
Thanks.

w/ regards,
Jay B.


from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject:
[Wikitech-l]
 http://www.wikipedia.org/wikistats/FR/TablesWikipediaFR.htm is now
 missing the non-ascii letters

body:
Since today on the fr, de, nl (and probably da:) version of the statistics (http://www.wikipedia.org/wikistats/FR/Sitemap.htm)
the non-ascii letters are missing or wrong.

-- Looxix


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Text to voice

body:
I finally got the text to voice of Dragon NaturallySpeaking 7 preferred
to work.  I had been using an old version of Microsoft Works as a text
editor.  When I changed to Microsoft Word. I could have it play back what
I said and read what it had written as it was supposed to.    Speech to
text is very different from text-to-speech.  With text-to-speech.  There
is no problem in guessing what word is meant.  I have a huge 21 in.
monitor  and at times have a hard time making out fine print with the
help of a magnifying glass. By having it read aloud  I can catch mistakes
and I would overlook otherwise.   It did not work with e-mails or the
Encyclopedia. Perhaps there are programs that will.  I am working on a
large spreadsheet , and can move around much faster than with the
keyboard.  I can say .   Move down two  and it is there,  Move right
twenty  and it is there before I close my mouth. It is much faster than
typing with the keyboard.   In Microsoft XP Home Edition go to control
panel; sounds speech and audio devices; speech; text-to-speech; preview
voice.  Then you can try the voice of Microsoft's Sam.  Clock G2 uses the
voice of Microsoft's Sam to announce the time and date each hour. I have
not found anything in any of my Microsoft programs about how to get it to
read text. I think that they should have such a program.  There are
probably other such programs and there have been such programs for years
but I don't know where to find them.   Merritt L. Perkins


subject: [Textbook-l] InternetSeer- Account Set Up

body:
--- Mike Dever <ndsub at mail.internetseer.com> wrote:
> Dear Subscriber
>
> Your account has been set up. Please keep this email
> for your records.
>
> Login:		textbook-l at wikipedia.org
> Password:	270oyb50
>
> If you have not completed the activation process,
> please do so now by logging
> into your account:
>
http://www.internetseer.com/ep/my_internetseer.jsp?7g7j5YM47gX6v76OwKTJyWUD7671ExzT=e3
>
> We look forward to providing you with our valuable
> monitoring service.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Michael Dever
> CEO/Co-Founder
> InternetSeer.com>

Who did this?
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Mike Dever

body:
Dear Subscriber

Your account has been set up. Please keep this email for your records.

Login:		textbook-l at wikipedia.org
Password:	270oyb50

If you have not completed the activation process, please do so now by logging
into your account:
http://www.internetseer.com/ep/my_internetseer.jsp?7g7j5YM47gX6v76OwKTJyWUD7671ExzT=e3

We look forward to providing you with our valuable monitoring service.

Best Regards,

Michael Dever
CEO/Co-Founder
InternetSeer.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/textbook-l/attachments/20030914/acdafd99/attachment.htm


from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] Internet Seer (and Google news tracker)

body:
Whats this internet seer thing ? Did someone sign up for it
?

-Karl

BTW Did anyone see the new feature on Google that does news
article tracking ? I am tracking the term "Wikipedia" and
anytime it comes up as a term in any of the news articles
that Google indexes it sends me a link to my email. Its
free and the signup was the least painful I have ever seen
for an internet service.

Here is a link it just sent me:

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/columns/091403BENSON_SEP15.html

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: InternetSeer

subject: [Textbook-l] InternetSeer Alert

body:
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/textbook-l/attachments/20030914/102dc65d/attachment.htm


subject: [Textbook-l] InternetSeer Alert

body:
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/textbook-l/attachments/20030914/7e908666/attachment.htm


from_name: Geoffrey Thomas

body:
Hello.

There's a link on the left called "Edit this page". You can use it
to delete the link. :-) (I just did so.)

The entire Wikipedia is a WikiWiki, meaning anyone can edit any page.

There are a whole bunch of broken links around the Wikipedia, and they
get cleaned out as people visit them.

This is the mailing list for textbook.wikipedia.org, the Wikibooks
project. The main Wikipedia mailing list is wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org.

Geoffrey Thomas, one of the many hundred regulars at
Wikipedia, the free, open-content, fastest-growing, WikiWiki encyclopedia

> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:48:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Connie Davis <connie.davis at mail.internetseer.com>
> Subject: [Textbook-l] Broken link on your website
> To: textbook-l at wikipedia.org
> Message-ID: <6751842.1063504107386.JavaMail.Administrator at pm68>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> There appears to be a problem on this page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zufall
> When we click on your link to: http://www.fh-weingarten.de/iaf/projekte/is/zufall.htm
> we get the error: 404 File not found
>
> We last examined your page on Sat Sep 13, 2003 at 09:49:35 PM EDT. If it
> has not been updated since then, the link is most likely broken.
>
> We discovered this error during our normal course of website content
> checking for one of our search engine clients.
>
> If you would like to receive notifications like this in the future if we
> find pages unavailable, click here:
>
http://scclick.internetseer.com/sitecheck/clickthrough.jsp?I5s57l5h5o5d5k5i5i53M5pPMUg1kPVINH59C5vTLHXyM_L_5aNPD53U5pXTxy5p5b5cKTU5dRX5cTRSHM_wPMH5bDV5cS6tD5eNzwLRHxR5eXx5eKWX6tCI5aXTC53T5p5g=e3
>
> Click here to learn more about us:
>
http://scclick.internetseer.com/sitecheck/clickthrough.jsp?I5s57l5h5o5d5k5i5i53M5pPMxbdkPVINH59C5vTLHXyM_L_5aNPD53U5pXTxy5p5b5cDV5bKXSSNRDX6u5dIzL5bUSQL5e6mWX6tCI52P5s5e=e3
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Connie Davis
> InternetSeer.com
> http://www.internetseer.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Your email address was found during a prior visit to your website on
> 09-13-2003. The error listed above was verified from both of our
> indexing servers in Philadelphia, Pa. and Los Angeles, Ca. This error could
> have been caused by any number of events, including connectivity problems on
> our part and/or connectivity problems in the Internet as we tried to reach
> your site. This error should not be construed as a guaranteed problem on the
> part of your website or hosting company since there are never any guaranteed
> connection routes on the Internet.
>
> If would like to be excluded from any potential future contact, click here:
> http://scclick.internetseer.com/sitecheck/cancel.jsp?PMX97mkPVINH59C5vTLHXyM_L_5aNPD.e3
>
>
> ##textbook-l at wikipedia.org## SRC=58

=====
-Geoffrey Thomas
geoffreyerffoeg at yahoo.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject:
[Wikitech-l]
	http://www.wikipedia.org/wikistats/FR/TablesWikipediaFR.htm
	is now	missing the non-ascii letters

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Okay, I think I've got it sorted out. Uploading new version...
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> _______________________________________________

Seems right now, thanks.

-- Looxix


body:
--- Geoffrey Thomas <geoffreyerffoeg at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello.
>
> There's a link on the left called "Edit this page".
> You can use it
> to delete the link. :-) (I just did so.)
>
> The entire Wikipedia is a WikiWiki, meaning anyone
> can edit any page.
>
> There are a whole bunch of broken links around the
> Wikipedia, and they
> get cleaned out as people visit them.
>
> This is the mailing list for textbook.wikipedia.org,
> the Wikibooks
> project. The main Wikipedia mailing list is
> wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org.
>
> Geoffrey Thomas, one of the many hundred regulars at
> Wikipedia, the free, open-content, fastest-growing,
> WikiWiki encyclopedia

I believe that that message was sent by a computer at
InternetSeer.com, which someone signed up for. It
finds broken links on normal websites, but it not fit
for Wikis. I don't know who subscribed for it, so I
can't unsubscribe.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


body:
--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Geoffrey Thomas <geoffreyerffoeg at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hello.
> >
> > There's a link on the left called "Edit this page".
> > You can use it
> > to delete the link. :-) (I just did so.)
> >
> > The entire Wikipedia is a WikiWiki, meaning anyone
> > can edit any page.
> >
> > There are a whole bunch of broken links around the
> > Wikipedia, and they
> > get cleaned out as people visit them.
> >
> > This is the mailing list for textbook.wikipedia.org,
> > the Wikibooks
> > project. The main Wikipedia mailing list is
> > wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org.
> >
> > Geoffrey Thomas, one of the many hundred regulars at
> > Wikipedia, the free, open-content, fastest-growing,
> > WikiWiki encyclopedia
>
> I believe that that message was sent by a computer at
> InternetSeer.com, which someone signed up for. It
> finds broken links on normal websites, but it not fit
> for Wikis. I don't know who subscribed for it, so I
> can't unsubscribe.
> LDan

Hmm. I just clicked on the link in the e-mail:

 textbook-l at wikipedia.org has been removed from SiteCheck.
 _Click here if there are any other addresses you would
 like to exclude from potential future contact._

The link points to
 http://scclick.internetseer.com/sitecheck/cancelemails.jsp
if anyone wants to remove the other mailing lists. I'd
trust this company on not being a spamming e-mail harvester.

The only strange thing is that Textbook-l is the contact
for the German Wikipedia....

Geoffrey

=====
-Geoffrey Thomas
geoffreyerffoeg at yahoo.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Admin nominations

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-09-13 at 21:49, Anthere wrote:
>
>>Hello
>>
>>Could someone please make User;Looxix an admin on the
>>french wikipedia ?
>
>
> Done.
>

Thanks to both of you.

-- Looxix