subject:
Fwd: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Your email requires verification
	verify#Tv3pRfj5OlgUYd4rzrsxER8NxjpJhLBr

body:
ROTFLMAO!!! Look what I got for my response to David's message,
another verification:

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Subject: Re: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Your email requires verification
verify#Tv3pRfj5OlgUYd4rzrsxER8NxjpJhLBr
To: node.ue at gmail.com

This message is a reply to a boxtrapper verifcation message.

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list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Requests_for_arbitration/Robert_the_Bruce

body:
Robert Brookes said:
>
> So what to do about a belligerent who spurns
> mediation?

I've been pondering this question since I read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Robert_the_Bruce#Mediation


subject: [WikiEN-l] Good cites and bad cites

body:
steven l. rubenstein said:
> I fear that the way this contrast is set up, we could never reach
> agreement  on a good policy.  Of course no cite is better than a bad
> cite, because we  do not want to give credibility to unreliable
> sources, or even direct  people there way.  The problem is there are
> many citations where people  will vociferously argue whether they are
> good or bad.
>
> I think the only way to proceed is to instead distinguish between
> "controversial cites" and "uncontroversial cites."  Both can be
> provided;  if a cite is controversial we simply explain what the nature
> of the  controversy is (something we are all well-practiced in doing
> already, to  comply with the NPOV policy in writing articles.
>
I don't think this is a good idea.  If I cite a British National Party
website as support for a statement about BNP official policy, I'm quoting
a source that has generated controversy, but this does not in any way
affect the fact that my citation is the most reliable way of citing BNP
official policy.  If there is some controversy over a citation it should
not be included in a NPOV article.  A form of citation must be found that
is perceived as factual by all (reasonable) parties. --~~~~


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
John Lee wrote:

> Robert Brookes wrote:
>
>> --- John Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Robert Brookes wrote:
>>>
>>>> So what to do about a belligerent who spurns
>>>> mediation?
>>>
>>> Nothing. Just hope the Arbcom will recognise this
>>> and take it into account; if you're lucky, they may drop the case.
>>
>> What are you telling me John? That interactions with
>> the Arbcom depend on luck?
>
> No, that you should stop spamming this mailing list and follow the
> dispute resolution procedure appropriately. We do not directly control
> the arbcom's decisions, so just point out the fact to them (which I
> believe you have done) and stop whining.

It doesn't sound like he's whining,  just that he would prefer mediation
where a consensus position could be worked out.  If one side refuses
mediation it's not a matter of luck but of evidence that one side
refuses to co-operate.  No need for you to get into dumb-ass accusations
about spamming and whining.

Ec


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikicite project pages (english versions only so far)

body:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikicite
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicite

A fact is only as reliable as the ability to source that fact, and the
ability to weigh carefully that source. Wikipedia's community, in an
effort to expand its useful sphere of users, increase its reliability,
usability and credibility has held several related discussions on
improving the scholarly apparatus of wikipedia. The need to cite
sources is now in the community standard's list, the desire to upgrade
the citation of articles is the subject of the Fact and Reference
Project, and the Encyclopediac Standards project has discussed
automatic, or at least software assisted citations. There has also been
a coding effort to support footnoting.
[edit]

Need for Live Data

These projects, need, not only to be joined together, but to be joined
together in a live manner, which allows for the creation of
bibliographic apparatus. The Library of Congress is working on such a
project for its purposes, it is the purpose of this project to create
an open wiki system which will allow:

1.  Software assisted citation. To make it easier for editors to cite,
and to make citations comprehensive to include a link to an author
article, the book's card and the date as a wikilink.

2.  Card catalogs which will allow users to annotate the work, and to
link to other works, which could include later editions, bibliography
and textual apparatus. To make the card catalog live data, rather than
dead data.

3.  Support a footnote system in wikimedia. To improve the ability to
assess credibility and standards compliance of articles and their
information.


list: foundation-l

from_name: notafish

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up

body:
> Delphine-
> "According to the proposed policy for wikis in new languages
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy_for_wikis_in_new_languages>, at
> least 5 people have to express an interest in a language edition in
> order for it to be created,"
[snip]
> Regards,
>
> Erik

I have answered to you in private on these matters. This leaves open
my question about admins on wikinews. What are the *rules* ?

Thank you,

Delphine


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: PHP IDE and debugger

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Urs C Muff wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> What IDE and debugger are you using to work with MediaWiki's PHP?  And
> what platform is that on?
>
> Thanks a lot for you answer!

I use Eclipse [1] with the PHPEclipse plugin and a cvs one. It is a java
IDE based on plugin and I use it as well for C++ projects.

For debuging I use the internal MediaWiki system, print_r() php
function. Also use Advanced Php Debugger [3] together with kcachegrind
[4] a kde frontend to valgrind.

Finally I got installations of all mediawiki versions (1.3, 1.4beta,
1.4, custom head and head) to test them :)

platform: debian/testing which is a GNU/Linux distribution. [5]

[1] http://www.eclipse.org/
[2] http://phpeclipse.sf.net/
[3] http://pecl.php.net/package/apd
[4] http://kcachegrind.sf.net/
[5] http://www.debian.org/

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wikicite project pages (english versions only so
	far)

body:
On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:26 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Stirling Newberry wrote:
>>
> Hoi,
> If the idea is to link citations to the US-Library of Congres then it
> may be a good idea inside the United States. If the idea is to link to
> the Koninklijke Bibliotheek then it may be an equally valid idea
> inside the Netherlands. When a standard is chosen that does not show
> how it relevancy outside the United States, the idea is how well
> intended fatally flawed.
>
> I do know there is a Library of Congress but I am more interested in
> the Koninklijke Bibliotheek. When a proposed system is structured in
> such a way that institutions that are equal to the Library of Congress
> are treated as such, a system as is proposed may be feasible. Without
> this, facts not known in the USA would not be creditable and this, is
> deadly for the credibility of this proposed system.
>
> Thanks,
>    GerardM
>
>

As the proposal shows, it would be linking to citations in wikipedia,
and the use of protocols would allow the querying of all important
repositories, and not merely one national one.


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
NSK wrote:

>On Sunday 30 January 2005 07:32, Matt Brown wrote:
>
>
>>fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor
>>percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because
>>
>>
>
>Discrimination against a browser because of its userbase is not a good thing.
>Never say "I don't support you because you are a minority". You could say
>that you can't support Konqueror becauce of the associated dev/admin work
>(which is exactly the reason why I don't officially support IE on my site
>http://www.wikinerds.org , only Mozilla and Konqueror are supported).
>
>
>
Discrimination is not a good thing. But letting software loose on the
world which is substandard is also not a good thing. There is little
choise but to bend over backwards and support Microsoft's broken
implementations of standards. With open source, you can scratch your own
itch. So work on the Konqueror implementation of CSS is called for,
alternatively use something that just works.

Thanks,
   GerardM


subject:
[Foundation-l] {Spam?} Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews
	set up

body:
Anthere wrote:

> About 3 years ago, I ranted a lot about the right of minorities to say
> their opinion and have it respected and taken into account.
>
> We are a diverse project, and we should preserve this diversity by
> being respectful of local habits.
>
> Taking decision by majority vote, and imposing local communities the
> wish of the global community is acceptable only when it does harm the
> project not to all walk in the same direction with the same pace.

This is the essence of maintaining vitality in our separate
communities.  The policies that really matter are and should remain very
few, and should be what define what is at the very heart of the project
family.

> You may answer notafish with giving her the "big rules", "big
> policies", "big guidelines" and other "big things" which were voted
> on. This does not hide the fact wikinews is not welcome among us. Just
> as wikiquotes, it will be a project in survival. I will not either
> mention how many french people work on wikisource or wikispecies.
> Wiktionary and wikibooks are below 50 edits per day as well. People
> are doing great things on them, but even after 2 years, these projects
> are still hardly resources. They will be great things later, but right
> now, they still host small communities.

As a person whose activities are focused on Wikisource and
en:Wiktionary, I very much agree.  Surely I would like these projects to
be broadly useful resources, but they can only become so by developing
their own policies, and by finding their own forms of consensus.  These
may be very different from what is agreed on other projects, notably the
en:Wikipedia.  I can't say much about Wikinews, because I'm simply not
interested in what happens there, and not particularly enthusiastic
about it either.

> One of the very poor aspects of globalization is forcing communities
> in a direction they are not ready to assume. It is forcing communities
> to assume a standard of life which they can not handle. It is pushing
> them to grow to fast, to run after more modern and developped ones.

The depth of this perspective goes far beyond our wiki family.
Globalization seems to be driven by a drive toward efficiency.  The
Corporation is helped in maximizing its profits by maximizing the
efficiency of its operations.  A mindset develops from that among the
people who manage such systems, to the point that they often lose sight
of why a project was undertaken in the first place.  Whe do _we_ need
efficiency?

> A project governed by rules and policies before being governed by what
> people wish is not what I wish for us.
>
> In my perspective, it is a huge disappointment. Huge because what wins
> here is not what a community really wishes, it is a set of rules,
> policies and such, drafted by a couple of people. It is not consensus,
> it is the rule of the strongest. And local community wish crushed by
> globalization.

Certainly.  A totally new project will surely look towards other
projects for guidelines.  It can examine those projects to see both what
goes wrong and what goes right.  An early leader of a project will draw
upon these for a first set of rules that will be needed just to make the
project operational.  If he chooses those rules well they will be
accepted by the community without much argument.  Ultimately, in these
projects the rules will be drafted by a couple people; there's no
escaping that because drafting rules involves a certain kind of language
use.  But who does the drafting should not be important as long as the
person is able to do that in a way that is sensitive to the feelings of
the community.

Ec


from_name: NSK

subject: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWYG editor

body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 05:27, Urs C Muff wrote:
> There are HTML area controls that are compatible with IE 5.5+ and
> Mozilla/Gecko based browser (including FireFox).  One of the compatible

It doesn't work on Konqie, I think.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Foundation-l] New project proposal: Wikineur

body:
Woah, calm down people. Read the proposal. Ok, so the stuff about
advising governments is just not in the least related to our mission,
but take a look at some of the other stuff. I have had personal
communication with Gavin specificaly related to the second half of the
proposal, and there would be a lot of great stuff we could do.

Imagine creating and distributing information on drought proofing
small farms, to help small hold farmers; bicycle repair information,
to give someone the gift of transport, or even start up a small
buisness repairing other peoples bycycles. Imagine, providing
information on how to make soap out of simple ingredients, or on
creating an irigation system. There is a massive information divide
between the 'north' and 'south', bridging this divide sounds like its
with in our mission. I'm not saying that this will solve all the
worlds problems, but surely it might help some people. There are
charities like Oxfam, who provide micro loans to start up small
buisnesses, what if we could provide (pertinent information) with that
loan, so that there is a better chance of the buisness works. Just
imagine it. Maybe we dont have the ability to do this, but maybe just
maybe we do....

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:17:41 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> VampWillow wrote:
>
> >I'm just having dinner and let out a big "eep" when I saw this ...
> >
> >
> >>There is nothing mysterious about creating wealth.  The right environment
> >>combined with the right people automatically results in lots of
> >>opportunities creating jobs and money.
> >>
> >>
> >That'll be why all these Nigerian death scams work then ...
> >
> The many factories producing brand-name sneakers in south Asia creat a
> lot of wealth ... just not for the people that are making the sneakers.
>
> >>The idea behind Wikineur is that it acts as a complete resource to set up
> >>a state from scratch
> >>
> >>
> >WOW! are you planning to set up shop on Titan or Mars or stage a coup
> >somewhere? (Your name is Mark Thatcher and I claim my ?5!)
> >
> As the name "Wikineur" implies, it's got a lot of nerve.
>
> >>with all the institutions required to support the
> >>economy.
> >>
> >>
> >Hey ... that is why their are politicians!
> >
> The libertarian model would prefer not to have all those institutions.
> They could be seen as interfering with wealth creation.
>
> >>I clearly do not have knowledge of all the topics to be
> >>covered but have a fair idea of the broad framework required.  This could
> >>become an excepionally powerful teaching tool in developing countries.
> >>
> >>
> >Your heart may be in the right place, but this whole proposal looks
> >terribly conceited that anyone who got involved with it would have the
> >audacity to tell others the "right way" to do anything, let alone run a
> >country!
> >
> It's a proposal of a kind that comes from people who believe their own
> rhetoric.

paz y amor,
[[User:The bellman]]

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 15:26, John Lee wrote:
> Well, if CSS2 doesn't work with Konqueror as NSK implied, surely that
> would mean we have to avoid CSS2 usage in *all* pages? Or are we going
> to have a nice portal and completely unreadable encyclopedia?

Konqi can understand CSS1, CSS2 and CSS3; but it's CSS2 and CSS3
implementations are not perfect. You can use only the CSS2 elements that are
compatible with all engines, ie/gecko/khtml/opera.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 07:32, Matt Brown wrote:
> fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor
> percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because

Discrimination against a browser because of its userbase is not a good thing.
Never say "I don't support you because you are a minority". You could say
that you can't support Konqueror becauce of the associated dev/admin work
(which is exactly the reason why I don't officially support IE on my site
http://www.wikinerds.org , only Mozilla and Konqueror are supported).

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


from_name: Marco Krohn

subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 15:29, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> With open source, you can scratch your own
> itch. So work on the Konqueror implementation of CSS is called for,
> alternatively use something that just works.

The bugs seems to be fixed since some time. A recent version of konqueror
works fine for me. Probably the bug is related to KDE 3.1 and was fixed in
the next major release. Most distributions have been updated since then.

best regards,
  Marco


from_name: Gavin Chait

subject: [Foundation-l] Project Proposal Revision:  Wikineur

body:
Thank you for the feedback (both constructive and other).  I have revised
the proposal, taking into consideration all current concerns.  The basic
proposal now covers the following:

Most businesses are not world beating global giants.  They are tiny corner
stores run by families who raise their kids, put them through school and
battle to cover their bonds and responsibilities.  Starting a business may
not have been their first choice.

People who find themselves running their own business have few resources
they can call on and there is little generic information available to help.
These problems become even more overwhelming in developing countries where
infrastructure and educational support are lacking.

This project aims to address these shortcomings by providing generic
information on a range of business topics, both general and specific, to
support business and job creation.

I will continue to revise the proposal as I receive further feedback.
Please read the complete revised proposal at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikineur and read my curriculum vitae at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Whythawk

Again, I value all constructive feedback and thank you so much to those who
have taken the time to contact me.

Kind regards,

Gavin Chait


from_name: Daniel Wunsch

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

references:
<41FBDCF8.1040809@email.com> <shvf9fjusz.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<41FD08CE.8070406@mindtouch.com>

body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 17:18, Urs C Muff wrote:

> Novice
> computer users will not write in any markup in my opinion, that's why
> there is a need for a WYSIWYG editor for those people.

the interesting thing is - they do! you'd be surprised how
fast reasonably intelligent people learn by imitating others.

another point: it's not a problem when novice users write
plain text without any markup. there are enough other
users who do know the markup and will write it for them
afterwards or teach them how to do it.

btw: we don't want visual markup, we want semantic markup.
personally, i do not want to clean up after people using wysiwyg
editors if it looks like the kind of HTML frontpage creates..

daniel


from_name: Marek M�hling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wikipedia/Special:Export - conversion of img paths

body:
Thanks, that helped.
M

"Robert Jones" <bob at jones-cliffe.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:001a01c50605$d7229c60$d1062bd9 at 68fffzwmmg78wn9...
>> What's the explanation for "thumb/5/54" in the example above?
>> Are there rules for conversion?
>
> It's based on the MD5 hash of the image name. The MD5 Hash of
> "150px-Flag_de-berlin_civil_300px.png" is
> 5490af54dffb956a9455f50a1f954eee.
> The first folder is the first character, and the sub-folder is the first 2
> characters.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 17:33, Marco Krohn wrote:
> the next major release. Most distributions have been updated since then.

On my website http://www.wikinerds.org I get many hits from old Konqueror
versions, even beta and RC releases. It seems that many people haven't
updated their systems yet.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


subject: [Wikipedia-l] sv wikinews and minman wikibooks fixed

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,

Due to a configuration trouble http://sv.wikinews.org/ and
http://zh-min-nan.wikibooks.org/ were not accessible probably since the
later got created.

Issue is now solved, go editing them :o)

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
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from_name: Gordon Morehouse

subject: [Wikitech-l] per-article anon edit rights

body:
Hello all,

I'm using Mediawiki 1.3.9 to run a personal wiki, and I've disabled anonymous
editing.  However, there are a couple articles which I'd like to allow users who
are not logged in to edit.  Is this possible and if so how could I accomplish it?


from_name: BJörn Lindqvist

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Illegitimate block.

body:
> beastly hordes of murderous Wikipedia admins.  This is a person who
> needs more help than can be provided over a mailing list.

I believe that unless someone is a qualified psychologist, that has
made a full diagnosis of the person that someone passes judgement
upon, veiled e-mail diagnoses of that persons mental status should be
avoided. If they are wrong, they are completely useless and will only
anger that person. If they are right, they will do nothing but
detoriate that persons mental condition.

--
mvh Bj?rn


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Your email requires verification
	verify#o84eqSImuJ_8TxmbMVSTDDmlNYypqqKc

body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 18:10, you wrote:
> The message you sent requires that you verify that you
> are a real live human being and not a spam source.
>
> To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave
> the subject line intact.

Please stop sending these messages.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


from_name: Peter Danenberg

subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiTeX: Gnuplot, etc.

body:
Salvete,

     Got around to some maintenance and addition:

     o    Gnuplot and Graphviz support

     o    dvipng for dvi2bitmap

     o    multi-page output

     I cleaned up the global namespace, Brion; and Gnuplot's
output is particularly pleasing:

     http://wikisophia.org/wiki/Wikisophia:Sandbox#Plot

--
Peter Danenberg                                           .
wikisophia.org                                           ..:


body:
| If it's in the local wiki's uploaded file set, that's used. Otherwise,
| the commons file set is checked.

I need to import recent wiki content in diff. languages to my website
- presently about 5 MB including images -
so to download 26 GBs via the complete DB dump wouldn't be economical.

As I don't have access to the wikipedia filesystem
I'd have to do the check above via HTTP request.

I'd do it like this:

1) send a GET request to http://upload.wikimedia.org/somePathToImg
2) wait for result
3) a - use the file in case of response 200
   b - else if response 404 fetch the file
       at http://commons.wikimedia.org/somePathToImg

...which still causes overhead.
Isn't there a more elegant solution?

Marek


body:
Stirling Newberry wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikicite
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicite
>
> A fact is only as reliable as the ability to source that fact, and the
> ability to weigh carefully that source. Wikipedia's community, in an
> effort to expand its useful sphere of users, increase its reliability,
> usability and credibility has held several related discussions on
> improving the scholarly apparatus of wikipedia. The need to cite
> sources is now in the community standard's list, the desire to upgrade
> the citation of articles is the subject of the Fact and Reference
> Project, and the Encyclopediac Standards project has discussed
> automatic, or at least software assisted citations. There has also
> been a coding effort to support footnoting.
> [edit]
>
> Need for Live Data
>
> These projects, need, not only to be joined together, but to be joined
> together in a live manner, which allows for the creation of
> bibliographic apparatus. The Library of Congress is working on such a
> project for its purposes, it is the purpose of this project to create
> an open wiki system which will allow:
>
> 1.  Software assisted citation. To make it easier for editors to cite,
> and to make citations comprehensive to include a link to an author
> article, the book's card and the date as a wikilink.
>
> 2.  Card catalogs which will allow users to annotate the work, and to
> link to other works, which could include later editions, bibliography
> and textual apparatus. To make the card catalog live data, rather than
> dead data.
>
> 3.  Support a footnote system in wikimedia. To improve the ability to
> assess credibility and standards compliance of articles and their
> information.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
Hoi,
If the idea is to link citations to the US-Library of Congres then it
may be a good idea inside the United States. If the idea is to link to
the Koninklijke Bibliotheek then it may be an equally valid idea inside
the Netherlands. When a standard is chosen that does not show how it
relevancy outside the United States, the idea is how well intended
fatally flawed.

I do know there is a Library of Congress but I am more interested in the
Koninklijke Bibliotheek. When a proposed system is structured in such a
way that institutions that are equal to the Library of Congress are
treated as such, a system as is proposed may be feasible. Without this,
facts not known in the USA would not be creditable and this, is deadly
for the credibility of this proposed system.

Thanks,
    GerardM

Thanks


subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikisource images

body:
Could somebody please look at Wikisource to determine why none of the
images are working.  This thing happened before during last August.

Ec


from_name: John Lee

subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>"a blanket ban on css2"? This is a single portal page we're talking
>bout here, not all Wikimedia projects.
>
>Mark
>
>On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:32:46 -0800, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:04 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with
>>>Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/
>>>
>>>Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.
>>>
>>>
>>Given that that document seems to state that much CSS2 works perfectly
>>fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor
>>percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because
>>Konqueror has some issues seems a bit over-the-top to me.
>>
>>Of course, a work-around that doesn't tickle that particular Konqueror
>>bug would be preferable.
>>
>>-Matt (User:Morven)
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>>
>>
Well, if CSS2 doesn't work with Konqueror as NSK implied, surely that
would mean we have to avoid CSS2 usage in *all* pages? Or are we going
to have a nice portal and completely unreadable encyclopedia?

John Lee
([[en:User:Johnleemk]])


subject:
Fwd: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Your email requires verification
	verify#o84eqSImuJ_8TxmbMVSTDDmlNYypqqKc

body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 21:46, NSK wrote:
> This is what I got when I asked this person to stop sending me automated
> messages. Perhaps somebody should convince this person to fix this problem.

in general the list owner will remove the person from the list and/or help him
fixing his problem. I did not notice the orginial mail because my spam filter
stopped it, but I received five replies so far ...

best regards,
  Marco


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
notafish schrieb:

>I have answered to you in private on these matters. This leaves open
>my question about admins on wikinews. What are the *rules* ?
>
>
Fr.Wikinews.Org should create a Wikinews:Administrators nomination
process. If a consensus can be found that a user should be an admin, a
steward can make them one. Normally, stewards pick a trusted user to be
a temporary bureaucrat, so that the wiki can create its own sysops. That
temporary bureaucratship is reviewed when the wiki has a stable user
base. For administrative needs that need to be completed ASAP, temporary
sysops can also be made, again by bureaucrats or stewards who know and
trust the user in question (e.g. Greudin).

Regards,

Erik


body:
This is what I got when I asked this person to stop sending me automated
messages. Perhaps somebody should convince this person to fix this problem.

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Your email requires verification
verify#o84eqSImuJ_8TxmbMVSTDDmlNYypqqKc
Date: Sunday 30 January 2005 18:50
From: <br1annet at laurie.aiows.net>
To: nsk2 at wikinerds.org

This message is a reply to a boxtrapper verifcation message.

No action is needed on your part.

The headers of the message sent from your address are show below:

-------------------------------------------------------

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Individual Wikipedias for different Sinitic
	vernaculars (Cantonese debate) - update

body:
I believe the term usually used in English is "One China, two systems".

Mark

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:36:54 +0800, MilchFlasche??
<robertus0617 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:49:11 +0800, Alex Kwan <litalex at slashyalex.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > MilchFlasche?? wrote:
> > > they are all transcribed in hanzi. I myself would like to see several
> > > whole articles totally in Wu or Cantonese, just to stun me how hard it
> > > is for a Mandarin speaker to understand those languages.
> >
> > Give me a topic and I might try (for Cantonese/Yue).
> > little Alex
>
> Well then... How about an entry on Faye Wong, or on "Huang
> Daxian"?????? Or to take some more "formal" topic (althought I don't
> like the distinction between "serious" and "relaxed" topics; why
> should we judge topics in respect to their relation with academic or
> politic issues?), how about an entry for Dong Jianhua or "two systems
> with in one nation"???????
>
> Thank you a lot!:)
>
> --
> 2005, make signs happen!
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikisource images

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ray Saintonge wrote:
| Could somebody please look at Wikisource to determine why none of the
| images are working.  This thing happened before during last August.

Should be fixed now. The symlinks were one subdirectory off, and files
were being put in the wrong place.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Illegitimate block.

body:
At 03:43 PM 1/31/2005 +1100, Skyring wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:01:48 -0800, Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca>
>wrote:
> > But this is exactly what I was disagreeing with; the comparison of the
> > Gestapo to heavy-handed admins is emphatically not appropriate.
>
>And I suppose you think the soupnazi episode in Seinfeld was about
>mass murder?

Never seen it but I presume that it wasn't. However, Seinfeld is a
_comedy_. Inappropriate comparisons are a staple of such.

>  Get real. Trying to read more into a statement than was
>ever put into it, especially where the original poster denies the
>interpretation, is just plain stupid.

The point I was arguing with him was whether the comparison was taking
place at all, which he was denying even as he made more of them. But yes,
continuing this argument is indeed pretty stupid at this point. That's why
I quit it several days ago.

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 1/28/2005


body:
Anthere-

> However, setting up a wikinews the way you did it, without prior warning

This is untrue. After the creation of nl.wikinews.org, I wrote:

"If everything is OK, and the board is happy with this language being
set up, I will go ahead and create the other ones which have sufficient
community support. "

There were no objections.

> without taking into account the strong opposition which existed in the
> french community

You agreed to this approach. You are a member of the board of elected
*global* representatives. I respect your unhappiness, but you have got
yourself to blame as much as anyone else for this outcome. Please take
some responsibility for your own actions. I am a powerless user. I could
not have created fr.wikinews.org without the support of you and the rest
of the board. You had the opportunity to raise objections, to define
stricter criteria than the ones I used, to talk to me. You did not.

You write bitterly about "local community wish[es] crushed by
globalization". Now, I know that you like to play the defender of the
oppressed. But I've got news for you, Florence: By that nomenclature,
you're one of the oppressors, part of the global elite that makes
decisions for small communities. You have power, I do not. You can fool
some people into thinking that you were "tricked" by the clever and
manipulative Erik, but the reality is that I have got to thank you. You
made fr.wikinews.org possible.  Thanks a lot for that. I appreciate the
support.

> People are doing great things on them, but even after 2 years, these
> projects are still hardly resources. They will be great things later,
> but right now, they still host small communities.

That's fine with me. Someone has to lay the groundwork. It's OK for a
project to start small and to grow later. Aside from that, I am still
skeptical that Wiktionary is at all feasible with the current software,
and think that Wikisource should be merged into the Wikimedia Commons to
be successful.

I've said the same thing to Delphine: There's no point at all in being
paranoid about bad publicity. Those who want to harm us will find
reasons to do so. No amount of off-wiki preparation will prevent a
slamming anti-Wikinews editorial. But to believe that any such editorial
could do us any serious long-term harm is very naive and underestimates
the intelligence and autonomy of our readers and editors.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Daniel Mayer-

>I have to agree with Anthere here. Since there is a lot of overlap between
>keeping the encyclopedia up to date and reporting on the news, there *must* be
>a critical mass of people working on that type of thing already on Wikipedia
>before it makes sense to have a separate news site.
>
>
I disagree. The work being done on Wikinews is, as I have already
explained before and as is also described in the Wikinews FAQ, very
different from the work done on Wikipedia: in-detail coverage of
individual events rather than summary-style overviews of a series of
events. To give you an example, one of the first French Wikinews
articles is this one about polling stations in Paris for the current
Iraqi elections:

http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/%C3%89lections_iraquiennes_en_territoires_%C3%A9trangers%2C_Paris

It includes original research by respected Wikipedian "Submarine". Of
this article, perhaps one photo would have been accepted into Wikipedia,
but most of it would have been ruled out on the grounds of "no original
research". It would also have been considered too detailed for a
Wikipedia article about the Iraqi elections, given that such polling
stations exist in many countries and there's no particular reason to
focus on the ones in Paris, nor are small, individual observations of
any relevance to an article which is meant to be read 5 years from now.

Now, how's the critical mass supposed to build for these types of
contributions to go to Wikinews if they wouldn't be allowed on Wikipedia
in the first place? The only way to build that critical mass is to have
a wiki. "Participate in Wikipedia, so that you can participate in
Wikinews when we have enough people to participate in Wikinews!" - It
just doesn't work that way. The two projects are too different.

Because it is different, Wikinews attracts different contributors than
Wikipedia. When RSS and category news display functionality are added
(MediaZilla:1411 works towards that), this makes the operation of the
site very similar to that of a blog, attracting bloggers who often have
no idea how Wikipedia works. By instituting a vague "critical mass"
requirement, we exclude those types of contributors who are not at all
interested in working on Wikipedia, but who get excited about Wikinews.
On February 5, we will have an IRC chat specifically to get bloggers
involved. What am I supposed to tell them? "Oh well, we don't have a
Wikinews in your language yet, try Wikipedia instead" - and have them
give up in frustration, because Wikipedia works nothing like a news
site, and all of their work is immediately deleted by busy WikiGnomes?

We're not in a position to tell people what they should and shouldn't be
doing. We should give people the option to work on Wikinews if they want
to. The only thing your proposed requirement would accomplish is pissing
off volunteers who are ready to put time and energy into a worthwhile
project. For these reasons and many more, I am strongly opposed to it.
Wikinews editions should be started when people want to work on them, no
sooner and no later.

Regards,

Erik


body:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 23:31, Marco Krohn wrote:
> in general the list owner will remove the person from the list and/or help
> him fixing his problem. I did not notice the orginial mail because my spam
> filter stopped it, but I received five replies so far ...

I just communicated with the person causing this problem and he said:

"I wasn't aware. It should be fixed. Can you send me an example please?"

I send him two examples and I hope that the problem will be resolved.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: The ideas wiki idea

body:
On Monday 31 January 2005 01:07, Robin Shannon wrote:
> Oh please not another [[rms]]; couldnt we ask for another [[lessig]]
> instead?

I think both rms and lessig are nice people. I have met rms at a talk.

I like both the gpl and ccl licences and I see no reason why somebody would
avoid rms/gpl, although I agree that in many situations the ccl is more
appropriate.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: The ideas wiki idea


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Robin Shannon (robin.shannon at gmail.com) [050130 16:16]:

> Imagine creating and distributing information on drought proofing
> small farms, to help small hold farmers; bicycle repair information,
> to give someone the gift of transport, or even start up a small
> buisness repairing other peoples bycycles. Imagine, providing
> information on how to make soap out of simple ingredients, or on
> creating an irigation system. There is a massive information divide
> between the 'north' and 'south', bridging this divide sounds like its
> with in our mission.

This is all Wikibooks material.

> I'm not saying that this will solve all the
> worlds problems, but surely it might help some people. There are
> charities like Oxfam, who provide micro loans to start up small
> buisnesses, what if we could provide (pertinent information) with that
> loan, so that there is a better chance of the buisness works. Just
> imagine it. Maybe we dont have the ability to do this, but maybe just
> maybe we do....

That's Wikibooks material too, really. This sounds like a project on
Wikibooks - more or less writing textbooks. Is there more to it than that?

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
Matt Brown (morven at gmail.com) [050130 16:32]:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:04 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:

> > Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with
> > Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/
> > Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.

> Given that that document seems to state that much CSS2 works perfectly
> fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor
> percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because
> Konqueror has some issues seems a bit over-the-top to me.
> Of course, a work-around that doesn't tickle that particular Konqueror
> bug would be preferable.

KHTML before the Safari (Dave Hyatt) changes were folded in was really not
very good with CSS and so forth. Of course, it wasn't nearly as bad as IE.

Graceful degradation in old and crappy browsers is absolutely essential.
Preferably without too much br*ws*r sn*ff*ng.

(Have a look at http://mozilla.org/start/1.0/ and detect-problems.js - that
was designed to let things work beautifully in Gecko, degrade tolerably in
Opera and Konq 2.x/3.0 and go to far too much effort to work around the
stupidity of IE. Netscape 4.x, we just let break ...)

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
NSK (nsk2 at wikinerds.org) [050131 01:21]:
> On Sunday 30 January 2005 07:32, Matt Brown wrote:

> > fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor
> > percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because

> Discrimination against a browser because of its userbase is not a good thing.
> Never say "I don't support you because you are a minority". You could say
> that you can't support Konqueror becauce of the associated dev/admin work
> (which is exactly the reason why I don't officially support IE on my site
> http://www.wikinerds.org , only Mozilla and Konqueror are supported).

*Current* Konqueror 3.x works fine, and anyone running it should be capable
of upgrading. OTOH, graceful degradation in ungraceful browsers (and
disgraceful ones) is essential.

- d.


from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>> However, setting up a wikinews the way you did it, without prior warning
>
> This is untrue. After the creation of nl.wikinews.org, I wrote:
>
> "If everything is OK, and the board is happy with this language being
> set up, I will go ahead and create the other ones which have sufficient
> community support. "
>
> There were no objections.

I didn't see a reaction from the board to your announcement that
nl.wikinews was set up. You seem to confuse not reacting with having no
objections or "being happy".

The other thing: I don't have the impression that Anthere is speaking
here from her board position, but - as notafish - as a member of the
french community which seems to be not happy about the newly created
wikinews. How much this holds true for the majority of contributors in
french wikipedia I don't know, but it's certainly a thing worth
considering before rushing ahead.

Anyway, french is created now so it makes no sense to complain about but
let's not commit the same mistake again for the chinese wikinews. Here
it certainly makes sense to hold a separate vote among the community of
chinese wikipedians if they want a wikinews or if they consider the risk
of chinese wikipedia getting blocked due to this too high.

The rules for new language editions were created with wikipedia in mind
which means: starting a project in a language which isn't represented
yet in a wikimedia project. However, the situation for wikinews is
different: we have already wikipedia communities in most languages, with
contributors who may or may not be willing to join a second project.

As maverick proposed, we should reconsider these rules for new projects
like wikinews. From my experience as admin on the german wikinews you'll
  need a small crew of experienced people who teach newbies about basic
rules. I don't want to know how many copyright violations I deleted in
the first days of german wikinews, apart from dealing with vandalism and
POV contributions. The enthusiastic newbies who joined in the first days
were pretty helpless against this and had to struggle enough to learn
writing news.  Additionally, wikinews editions could also do very well
with professional journalists accompanying the project, writing
tutorials and helping people through the first steps.

My proposal for setting up new language editions of a project would be:
  people who want to work on a new language edition should gather on
meta-wiki and elect two known people as admins. Further, we should try
to figure out if there is real interest or if people just signed the "I
want a xx wikinews" and then never show up. This could be done by
inviting people to a preparation meeting on the IRC channel, where they
also could get to know each other.

Just compare the spanish and the dutch wikinews: At the moment I'm
writing this mail, the spanish wikinews has seen exactly seven edits
(three by a dutch user) while the dutch has already a nice main page and
several news. If this continues, spanish wikinews will be just another
wiki which has to be regularly controlled by external people for spam
and vandalism.

greetings,
elian
PS: In the time between, please document your actions on
http://wp.wikidev.net/Server_admin_log
and make the developers happy by following their conventions.
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body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>> However, setting up a wikinews the way you did it, without prior warning
>
> This is untrue. After the creation of nl.wikinews.org, I wrote:
>
> "If everything is OK, and the board is happy with this language being
> set up, I will go ahead and create the other ones which have sufficient
> community support. "
>
> There were no objections.

I didn't see a reaction from the board to your announcement that
nl.wikinews was set up. You seem to confuse not reacting with having no
objections or "being happy".

The other thing: I don't have the impression that Anthere is speaking
here from her board position, but - as notafish - as a member of the
french community which seems to be not happy about the newly created
wikinews. How much this holds true for the majority of contributors in
french wikipedia I don't know, but it's certainly a thing worth
considering before rushing ahead.

Anyway, french is created now so it makes no sense to complain about but
let's not commit the same mistake again for the chinese wikinews. Here
it certainly makes sense to hold a separate vote among the community of
chinese wikipedians if they want a wikinews or if they consider the risk
of chinese wikipedia getting blocked due to this too high.

The rules for new language editions were created with wikipedia in mind
which means: starting a project in a language which isn't represented
yet in a wikimedia project. However, the situation for wikinews is
different: we have already wikipedia communities in most languages, with
contributors who may or may not be willing to join a second project.

As maverick proposed, we should reconsider these rules for new projects
like wikinews. From my experience as admin on the german wikinews you'll
  need a small crew of experienced people who teach newbies about basic
rules. I don't want to know how many copyright violations I deleted in
the first days of german wikinews, apart from dealing with vandalism and
POV contributions. The enthusiastic newbies who joined in the first days
were pretty helpless against this and had to struggle enough to learn
writing news.  Additionally, wikinews editions could also do very well
with professional journalists accompanying the project, writing
tutorials and helping people through the first steps.

My proposal for setting up new language editions of a project would be:
  people who want to work on a new language edition should gather on
meta-wiki and elect two known people as admins. Further, we should try
to figure out if there is real interest or if people just signed the "I
want a xx wikinews" and then never show up. This could be done by
inviting people to a preparation meeting on the IRC channel, where they
also could get to know each other.

Just compare the spanish and the dutch wikinews: At the moment I'm
writing this mail, the spanish wikinews has seen exactly seven edits
(three by a dutch user) while the dutch has already a nice main page and
several news. If this continues, spanish wikinews will be just another
wiki which has to be regularly controlled by external people for spam
and vandalism.

greetings,
elian
PS: In the time between, please document your actions on
http://wp.wikidev.net/Server_admin_log
and make the developers happy by following their conventions.
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body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>> However, setting up a wikinews the way you did it, without prior warning
>
> This is untrue. After the creation of nl.wikinews.org, I wrote:
>
> "If everything is OK, and the board is happy with this language being
> set up, I will go ahead and create the other ones which have sufficient
> community support. "
>
> There were no objections.

I didn't see a reaction from the board to your announcement that
nl.wikinews was set up. You seem to confuse not reacting with having no
objections or "being happy".

The other thing: I don't have the impression that Anthere is speaking
here from her board position, but - as notafish - as a member of the
french community which seems to be not happy about the newly created
wikinews. How much this holds true for the majority of contributors in
french wikipedia I don't know, but it's certainly a thing worth
considering before rushing ahead.

Anyway, french is created now so it makes no sense to complain about but
let's not commit the same mistake again for the chinese wikinews. Here
it certainly makes sense to hold a separate vote among the community of
chinese wikipedians if they want a wikinews or if they consider the risk
of chinese wikipedia getting blocked due to this too high.

The rules for new language editions were created with wikipedia in mind
which means: starting a project in a language which isn't represented
yet in a wikimedia project. However, the situation for wikinews is
different: we have already wikipedia communities in most languages, with
contributors who may or may not be willing to join a second project.

As maverick proposed, we should reconsider these rules for new projects
like wikinews. From my experience as admin on the german wikinews you'll
  need a small crew of experienced people who teach newbies about basic
rules. I don't want to know how many copyright violations I deleted in
the first days of german wikinews, apart from dealing with vandalism and
POV contributions. The enthusiastic newbies who joined in the first days
were pretty helpless against this and had to struggle enough to learn
writing news.  Additionally, wikinews editions could also do very well
with professional journalists accompanying the project, writing
tutorials and helping people through the first steps.

My proposal for setting up new language editions of a project would be:
  people who want to work on a new language edition should gather on
meta-wiki and elect two known people as admins. Further, we should try
to figure out if there is real interest or if people just signed the "I
want a xx wikinews" and then never show up. This could be done by
inviting people to a preparation meeting on the IRC channel, where they
also could get to know each other.

Just compare the spanish and the dutch wikinews: At the moment I'm
writing this mail, the spanish wikinews has seen exactly seven edits
(three by a dutch user) while the dutch has already a nice main page and
several news. If this continues, spanish wikinews will be just another
wiki which has to be regularly controlled by external people for spam
and vandalism.

greetings,
elian
PS: In the time between, please document your actions on
http://wp.wikidev.net/Server_admin_log
and make the developers happy by following their conventions.
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body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>> However, setting up a wikinews the way you did it, without prior warning
>
> This is untrue. After the creation of nl.wikinews.org, I wrote:
>
> "If everything is OK, and the board is happy with this language being
> set up, I will go ahead and create the other ones which have sufficient
> community support. "
>
> There were no objections.

I didn't see a reaction from the board to your announcement that
nl.wikinews was set up. You seem to confuse not reacting with having no
objections or "being happy".

The other thing: I don't have the impression that Anthere is speaking
here from her board position, but - as notafish - as a member of the
french community which seems to be not happy about the newly created
wikinews. How much this holds true for the majority of contributors in
french wikipedia I don't know, but it's certainly a thing worth
considering before rushing ahead.

Anyway, french is created now so it makes no sense to complain about but
let's not commit the same mistake again for the chinese wikinews. Here
it certainly makes sense to hold a separate vote among the community of
chinese wikipedians if they want a wikinews or if they consider the risk
of chinese wikipedia getting blocked due to this too high.

The rules for new language editions were created with wikipedia in mind
which means: starting a project in a language which isn't represented
yet in a wikimedia project. However, the situation for wikinews is
different: we have already wikipedia communities in most languages, with
contributors who may or may not be willing to join a second project.

As maverick proposed, we should reconsider these rules for new projects
like wikinews. From my experience as admin on the german wikinews you'll
  need a small crew of experienced people who teach newbies about basic
rules. I don't want to know how many copyright violations I deleted in
the first days of german wikinews, apart from dealing with vandalism and
POV contributions. The enthusiastic newbies who joined in the first days
were pretty helpless against this and had to struggle enough to learn
writing news.  Additionally, wikinews editions could also do very well
with professional journalists accompanying the project, writing
tutorials and helping people through the first steps.

My proposal for setting up new language editions of a project would be:
  people who want to work on a new language edition should gather on
meta-wiki and elect two known people as admins. Further, we should try
to figure out if there is real interest or if people just signed the "I
want a xx wikinews" and then never show up. This could be done by
inviting people to a preparation meeting on the IRC channel, where they
also could get to know each other.

Just compare the spanish and the dutch wikinews: At the moment I'm
writing this mail, the spanish wikinews has seen exactly seven edits
(three by a dutch user) while the dutch has already a nice main page and
several news. If this continues, spanish wikinews will be just another
wiki which has to be regularly controlled by external people for spam
and vandalism.

greetings,
elian
PS: In the time between, please document your actions on
http://wp.wikidev.net/Server_admin_log
and make the developers happy by following their conventions.
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
Stirling Newberry (stirling.newberry at xigenics.net) [050131 02:53]:
> On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:04 AM, David Gerard wrote:

> >*Current* Konqueror 3.x works fine, and anyone running it should be
> >capable
> >of upgrading. OTOH, graceful degradation in ungraceful browsers (and
> >disgraceful ones) is essential.

> Or as we called it at a very large software company I used to work for
> "ass backwards compatibility".

*applause*

- d.


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Your email requires verification
	verify#Tv3pRfj5OlgUYd4rzrsxER8NxjpJhLBr

body:
br1annet at laurie.aiows.net (br1annet at laurie.aiows.net) [050131 03:34]:

> The message you sent requires that you verify that you
> are a real live human being and not a spam source.
> To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave
> the subject line intact.
> The headers of the message sent from your address are show below:
    [...]
> Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com: domain of wikipedia-l-bounces at wikimedia.org designates 207.142.131.234 as permitted sender)

Anyone who sends whitelisting messages to *each poster to* a mailing list
they subscribe to shows the deep obnoxiousness of whitelisting and needs to
be removed from said mailing list promptly.

- d.


body:
Elian -

> I didn't see a reaction from the board to your announcement that
> nl.wikinews was set up. You seem to confuse not reacting with having
> no objections or "being happy".

I did speak to both Jimmy and Angela about it before I set it up, and
they were OK with launching it. I could not reach Anthere, that's why I
first only set up nl.wikinews.org to give her a chance to react.
Technically, I did not need to speak to any of them, since the policy
was already agreed upon.

> How much this holds true for the majority of contributors in french
> wikipedia I don't know, but it's certainly a thing worth considering
> before rushing ahead.

The project is approved and ready to be launched in the languages where
there is interest. Unless the French community has objections that are
*specific* to their language, nation or culture, it is irrelevant
whether some French Wikimedians like the project or not. Those who
opposed Wikinews had their chance to vote. It's time to acknowledge that
a strong majority of the Wikimedia community is supportive of Wikinews,
and to treat it like all other Wikimedia projects. We have a French
Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Wikibooks and Wikisource, all of which were set
up without any of the onerous requirements that are being debated here,
or even the ones which I followed.

As for Chinese, there are objections which are specific to China. These
should be resolved in one way or another before the project is
definitely created.

> Here it certainly makes sense to hold a separate vote among the
> community of chinese wikipedians if they want a wikinews or if they
> consider the risk of chinese wikipedia getting blocked due to this too
> high.

My opinion on the matter is that we should not bow to totalitarian
regimes, and instead provide readers and editors with the tools to
circumvent censorship. But I understand that this position is only mine
and not necessarily that of the WMF. I therefore ask the Board to
formulate or approve a policy here which I will then follow. That policy
could mean a separate vote, a higher threshold of creation, or something
else.

Regarding the rest of your argument, I will say two things:

1) As I said before, it doesn't matter whether Wikinews starts as a
professional project or just as a small experimental wiki. A smaller
wiki is less visible and less useful, hence less likely to attract
negative attention. It can, however, grow into something useful over
time. I find it crucial that people who have an interest in Wikinews
have a wiki to work on, rather than being told that they have to build
their community in meta-exile until it is large enough, which is simply
not practical -- the community grows with the content. We should stop
being paranoid about the quality of our projects a few days after they
launch. They are wikis and should be treated as such.

2) Inactive wikis should be closed, as simple as that. If
es.wikinews.org remains dormant, it will be shut down.

I also caution against any substantial alteration of the language policy
for further Wikinews editions, as that would be unfair to the remaining
languages, some of which are major.

As for the server log entry, yes, I forgot about that. This is now done.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] "Don't be a dick" has been shifted to meta

body:
    http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick

To blow my own horn a bit, this was discussed on my LiveJournal a bit a
while ago:

    http://www.livejournal.com/users/reddragdiva/143397.html?thread=1663269#t1663269
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/reddragdiva/143397.html

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] "Don't be a dick" has been shifted to meta


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: phase3/includes SpecialMovepage.php, 1.48,
 1.49 Title.php, 1.162, 1.163

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
<snip>
> FIXME: sucess redirection for Special:Movepage pass through the
> parser, breaking the header relocation :-/

Lo,

When moving a page from FOO to BAR result is:

- -------8<------------------------------

<title>Redirect</title>

Location: http://wiki.twenkill.net/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Movepage&action=success&oldtitle=FOOMOVE6&newtitle=FOOMOVE7&talkmoved=badarticleerror

- -------8<------------------------------

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFB/b7IpmyHQ2O4INERAug/AKDrYXuOOLStET2UQQuUzJZWYnOxegCgpoAY
RKPcratC9n2gYlGzqYouM/Q=
=N32f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: per-article anon edit rights

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Gordon Morehouse wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm using Mediawiki 1.3.9 to run a personal wiki, and I've disabled
> anonymous editing.  However, there are a couple articles which I'd
> like to allow users who are not logged in to edit.  Is this possible
> and if so how could I accomplish it?

Not possible. Preventing anonymous user to edit block them for ALL articles.

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFB/cAwpmyHQ2O4INERAmLgAKC/m3P43yHQBLHYwiiOK61eG6KIhwCgr+LJ
0i8x4zmro4pUJUqOM1tXOPA=
=8Ys6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Anthere

body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> notafish schrieb:
>
>> I have answered to you in private on these matters. This leaves open
>> my question about admins on wikinews. What are the *rules* ?
>>
>>
> Fr.Wikinews.Org should create a Wikinews:Administrators nomination
> process. If a consensus can be found that a user should be an admin, a
> steward can make them one. Normally, stewards pick a trusted user to be
> a temporary bureaucrat, so that the wiki can create its own sysops.

No, this is not how things proceed, this is not the rules we set, and I
recommand that we do not go along this way.

Normally, stewards do what the community wants them to do.
Anyone willing to be a sysop should set up a voting page, and if there
is no opposition, the guy can ask a steward to change his status.

It is not the steward business to decide who should be sysop.
And the steward should normally ask that an admin page be set and that
the guy put his name and wait a little while.

What often happen in case of new projects in a well represented language
(for example fr.wikiquote.org) is that the person asking for a status
will set the page, and ask the wikipedia editors (fr.wikipedia.org) to
go and support him over there.

I think this is fine.

It also happens that the project started in a new one in this language
(for example yy.wikipedia.org... ). In this case, no one can really
vote. In this case, the community is so small (often less than 5...),
that we make the guy sysop without any votes of course.
This happens only on very very very very small wikis.

So.... Either the wikinews is viable, with a big community (supposingly
at least 5), and that means at least 5 people are here to vote.
Or the wikinews has less than 5 people available to vote, and in this
case, according to policy, it should never has been opened.

In short, if a wikinews is NOT able to gather at least 5 people to vote
on such an issue as an admin setting, then it should be plain closed.

  That
> temporary bureaucratship is reviewed when the wiki has a stable user
> base. For administrative needs that need to be completed ASAP, temporary
> sysops can also be made, again by bureaucrats or stewards who know and
> trust the user in question (e.g. Greudin).
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

In case of recent wikinews being set up, if the editors base is not at
least 5 involved editors, then the wikinews should be closed.

If you can not gather 5 names to vote on an easy point as admin
election, then there is no chance that wiki can go through all its
building process.


from_name: Frank v Waveren

body:
On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 06:20:48AM +0100, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Gordon Morehouse wrote:
> > I'm using Mediawiki 1.3.9 to run a personal wiki, and I've disabled
> > anonymous editing.  However, there are a couple articles which I'd
> > like to allow users who are not logged in to edit.  Is this possible
> > and if so how could I accomplish it?
> Not possible. Preventing anonymous user to edit block them for ALL articles.
Perhaps you could protect all pages apart from those that are
anon-editable and give all logged in users sufficient privileges to
edit protected pages? Bit of a hack, but it might work for some
specific cases.

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8

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body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Anthere-
>
>> However, setting up a wikinews the way you did it, without prior warning
>
>
> This is untrue. After the creation of nl.wikinews.org, I wrote:
>
> "If everything is OK, and the board is happy with this language being
> set up, I will go ahead and create the other ones which have sufficient
> community support. "
>
> There were no objections.

You forget one thing.
Editors on the french wikipedia do not lose their time reading you on
the foundation list. Most of them have no idea what is going here. And
you have similarly no idea of what is going on there.

Are you aware some wrote there this wiki should be deleted ?

You can't claim that there is no objection when people are not even
aware of something going on. You can't pretend the foundation list is a
channel of information read by anyone. Nowhere is written that this is
mandatory.

The truth is many editors in non english projects just do not read mails
here, and have no way to know what is decided by other people for them.

So, if you give an information, which you really want them to read, a
solution is to go to fr.wikipedia pump at least.

Given the opposition there was on the project, I think it would have
been appreciated that you at least mention the creation over there.

>> without taking into account the strong opposition which existed in the
>> french community
>
>
> You agreed to this approach. You are a member of the board of elected
> *global* representatives. I respect your unhappiness, but you have got
> yourself to blame as much as anyone else for this outcome. Please take
> some responsibility for your own actions. I am a powerless user.

Powerless user ?
Please do avoid playing on this argument, it does not fit you well.

You have the power to set up a wiki even when editors are not
suppporting it.

You even have the power to make yourself sysop, bureaucrat, developer on
a wiki without asking and even telling anyone.

I could
> not have created fr.wikinews.org without the support of you and the rest
> of the board. You had the opportunity to raise objections, to define
> stricter criteria than the ones I used, to talk to me. You did not.

My stupidity was not to set a criteria such as
* when starting a wiki, 5 editors should be required. These 5 editors
should be able to read and write the language to be created or their
votes will not be considered.

When a criteria must mention that an editor must be able to edit a wiki
for its vote to be valid, I think we are reaching a level of bureaucracy
that goes too far.

In any cases, I added the following criteria to the creation requirements

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Policy_for_wikis_in_new_languages&curid=12807&diff=0&oldid=94663

> You write bitterly about "local community wish[es] crushed by
> globalization". Now, I know that you like to play the defender of the
> oppressed. But I've got news for you, Florence: By that nomenclature,
> you're one of the oppressors, part of the global elite that makes
> decisions for small communities. You have power, I do not. You can fool
> some people into thinking that you were "tricked" by the clever and
> manipulative Erik, but the reality is that I have got to thank you. You
> made fr.wikinews.org possible.  Thanks a lot for that. I appreciate the
> support.

I hope you do.
*I* was not tricked by you at all.
You only made possible the existence of a local wiki with extremely
little support and broken rules.

>> People are doing great things on them, but even after 2 years, these
>> projects are still hardly resources. They will be great things later,
>> but right now, they still host small communities.
>
>
> That's fine with me. Someone has to lay the groundwork. It's OK for a
> project to start small and to grow later. Aside from that, I am still
> skeptical that Wiktionary is at all feasible with the current software,
> and think that Wikisource should be merged into the Wikimedia Commons to
> be successful.
>
> I've said the same thing to Delphine: There's no point at all in being
> paranoid about bad publicity. Those who want to harm us will find
> reasons to do so. No amount of off-wiki preparation will prevent a
> slamming anti-Wikinews editorial. But to believe that any such editorial
> could do us any serious long-term harm is very naive and underestimates
> the intelligence and autonomy of our readers and editors.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

Very naive ?

Well, there are some comments you should avoid making Erik.
I thought we had a sort of agreement to avoid personal attacks and to
respect other opinions on such matters. Over then ?


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] The new Wikipedia Signpost issue is now up

body:
Since some people have asked for occasional reminders to continue, this
is to let everyone know that the latest issue of The Wikipedia Signpost
just got posted, and offer apologies for the delay. It took a few hours
longer to assemble than normal because my ISP's connection was having
trouble. Fortunately, it's still Monday in nearly all of the world, so
hopefully the news isn't too dated, even if I did get scooped on this
list about Heavy metal umlaut.

Of course, such delays would be avoidable if this was less of a one-man
show. I know I've got quite a lot of people reading, but I need to start
turning at least a few readers into writers, otherwise I won't be able
to continue this indefinitely. Contact me if you're interested, I need
the help.

The URL, for those of you who haven't been reading yet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost

--Michael Snow


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up

body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Elian -
>
>> I didn't see a reaction from the board to your announcement that
>> nl.wikinews was set up. You seem to confuse not reacting with having
>> no objections or "being happy".
>
>
> I did speak to both Jimmy and Angela about it before I set it up, and
> they were OK with launching it. I could not reach Anthere, that's why I
> first only set up nl.wikinews.org to give her a chance to react.
> Technically, I did not need to speak to any of them, since the policy
> was already agreed upon.

I can be reached any time by email. I check it dozens of time per day,
even during work hours.
My mail adress is anthere at wikimedia.org.

I am also often on irc, though admitedly not at the same hours you are,
since I am at work during the day.

I also check my user pages on meta, fr and en everyday.

I had no reason to comment on nl creation. Dutch editors supported
greatly the wikinews. Obviously, there was already a high enough number
of editors to take care of it nicely.
When I was in Rotterdam, I talked with Puck on this matter, and he made
important comments about it I think. I know there are several seriously
involved people working on it. So, there is no comparison.

My issue with fr is not a global one, and Elian is correct in saying
this is not a board issue I am trying to raise here. The global
community supported the project, the board approved the project, so this
is just enough. The board is not concerned any more now.

I talk just as an editor.
An editor who just know that there was no global support in the french
speaking community (so, it would probably have deserved talking to the
community first)
and who know the 5 editors requirements is counting editors who are not
french speaking, or not very active or just not active anymore (so, I
question the validity of this requirement and question the ability of
wikinews to function and build a nice community on these basis).
and the day of its creation, it was not even labelled as a beta site.

I know some people are working on it, but it is different from new
language wikipedias. All the rules are still to set up. It will take
time to do so.

I think we should favor a down top approach. Which means people (enough
people) should be asking for a wiki. Not the top down approach where one
person decide which languages are ready to start.

I remember frequent calls on the mailing list, for the setting up of
french wiktionary for example. You could hear the people asking for it.
Asking and asking and asking again. You then know editors badly want it.
Here, I heard nothing at all.

Anthere


body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> My opinion on the matter is that we should not bow to totalitarian
> regimes, and instead provide readers and editors with the tools to
> circumvent censorship. But I understand that this position is only mine
> and not necessarily that of the WMF. I therefore ask the Board to
> formulate or approve a policy here which I will then follow. That policy
> could mean a separate vote, a higher threshold of creation, or something
> else.

Another very "wiki way" ... would be to wait that people really ask for
the wikinews to be created. You know it is "really" when it begins to
get noisy on mailing lists.

> Regarding the rest of your argument, I will say two things:
>
> 1) As I said before, it doesn't matter whether Wikinews starts as a
> professional project or just as a small experimental wiki. A smaller
> wiki is less visible and less useful, hence less likely to attract
> negative attention. It can, however, grow into something useful over
> time. I find it crucial that people who have an interest in Wikinews
> have a wiki to work on, rather than being told that they have to build
> their community in meta-exile until it is large enough, which is simply
> not practical -- the community grows with the content. We should stop
> being paranoid about the quality of our projects a few days after they
> launch. They are wikis and should be treated as such.

I think it does matter.
When it was created, wikinews was not even labelled a starting wiki.
And the media will soon have its attention on it.

> 2) Inactive wikis should be closed, as simple as that. If
> es.wikinews.org remains dormant, it will be shut down.

Not really. There is always one or two editors. It is unnice to close it
then.

> I also caution against any substantial alteration of the language policy
> for further Wikinews editions, as that would be unfair to the remaining
> languages, some of which are major.

I caution against putting everyone in the same pot, regardless of local
objections.

> As for the server log entry, yes, I forgot about that. This is now done.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik


from_name: Robert Brookes

subject: [WikiEN-l] Requests_for_arbitration/Robert_the_Bruce

body:
--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
wrote:

> Robert Brookes said:
> >
> > --- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Robert Brookes said:
> >> >
> >> > So what to do about a belligerent who spurns
> >> > mediation?
> >>
> >> I've been pondering this question since I read
> this:
> >>
> >>
> >
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Robert_the_Bruce#Mediation
> >>
> >
> >
> > What I am pondering is why it was such a crime for
> me
> > to refuse that mediation when with the case at
> hand
> > everyone seems pretty blas? about EB's refusal.
> What
> > exactly is the difference Tony?
> >
> On the first occasion when you called for mediation,
> you asked for a
> mediator "suitably qualified to understand
> obsessive/compulsive
> behavior...who has experience with disputes
> involving over-zealous sysops
> and the misuse and abuse of administrative powers"
> and on the second
> occasion you expressed your position as "Through
> this mediation I hope to
> reach an understanding with Exploding Boy that he
> ceases to abuse the
> systems of Wikipedia as a means to neutralise those
> with whom he has a POV
> disagreement. Should the mediation fail I intend to
> take this issue to the
> AC with the view of having him stripped of
> admin/sysop position." You're a
> troll.
>

But I suppose if I called someone a troll it would be
a personal attack? heh heh heh Boy are you funny Tony.

Robert

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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from_name: NSK

body:
On Monday 31 January 2005 07:51, Frank v Waveren wrote:
> Perhaps you could protect all pages apart from those that are
> anon-editable and give all logged in users sufficient privileges to
> edit protected pages? Bit of a hack, but it might work for some
> specific cases.

This is what I am doing on my wikis, such as http://www.nerdypc.org

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] About language names

body:
Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> When we indicate languages in interwiki links, we write the names of
> those languages as it is written in that language. So we get English,
> Nederlands, Deutsch, ??? etc. I think it is a nice feature.
>
> Some languages however are not written as they are written in that
> language, think italiano, fran?ais or sicilianu. Basically, this is
> wrong. The only reason I can think of why you want this, is for
> "esthetic" reasons. These however take not into account the
> sensibilities that are often associated with language names.

Normally items in a list are capitalized, unless they are completing
a sentence that the list introduces.
http://www.kanten.com/styleguide/book/lists.html

This is true in French, Italian, and Sicilian as well:  the toolbox
on their wiki pages say:

[fr:]
* Pages li?es
* Suivi des liens
* Pages sp?ciales
(not "pages" and "suivi")

[it:]
* Pagine che linkano questa
* Modifiche correlate
* Pagine speciali
(not "pagine" and "modifiche")

[scn:]
* Chi punta cc?
* Canciamenti culligati
* Paggini spiciali
(not "chi" or "canciamenti" or "paggini")

Capitalization rules for ordinary (that is, nontechnical) language
tell when words are to be capitalized, and what words are never to
be lowercased, and generally _not_ what words are never to be
capitalized.  Even "fran?ais" is capitalized at the beginning of
a sentence, so it is not right to say "Fran?ais" is never written
in that language.

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: The ideas wiki idea

body:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:33:17 -0600, Kiss All <kissall at gmail.com> wrote:
> However, you got the point: we need a practical license for this type
> of intellectual property. Mostly it contradicts the current patent
> laws. Just like free software contradicts copyright. We need a
> "Stallman" in this area too,.

Oh please not another [[rms]]; couldnt we ask for another [[lessig]] instead?

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: The ideas wiki idea


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Robert Brookes said:
>
> --- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Robert Brookes said:
>> >
>> > So what to do about a belligerent who spurns
>> > mediation?
>>
>> I've been pondering this question since I read this:
>>
>>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Robert_the_Bruce#Mediation
>>
>
>
> What I am pondering is why it was such a crime for me
> to refuse that mediation when with the case at hand
> everyone seems pretty blas? about EB's refusal. What
> exactly is the difference Tony?
>
On the first occasion when you called for mediation, you asked for a
mediator "suitably qualified to understand obsessive/compulsive
behavior...who has experience with disputes involving over-zealous sysops
and the misuse and abuse of administrative powers"  and on the second
occasion you expressed your position as "Through this mediation I hope to
reach an understanding with Exploding Boy that he ceases to abuse the
systems of Wikipedia as a means to neutralise those with whom he has a POV
disagreement. Should the mediation fail I intend to take this issue to the
AC with the view of having him stripped of admin/sysop position." You're a
troll.


from_name: Edward Peschko

subject: [Wikitech-l] alternatives to dbg

body:
On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 06:31:49PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Edward Peschko wrote:
> | What do people use for a command-line IDE in debugging mediawiki, aside
> | from dbg (http:/dd.cron.ru/dbg)
>
> Mostly I just try to stick in a stack trace at fatal errors (as a
> general rule, using wfDebugDieBacktrace()) and occasionally slip in a
> temporary var_dump to see additional variable state. Crude, yes.
>
> | I've just about given up on the command line debugger there - and was
> wondering
> | whether php has any plans on integrating one into the php-suite, as
> perl does..
>
> Zend (the developer of PHP) sells a proprietary, commercial IDE with an
> integrated debugger. Honestly I doubt they're interested in cutting into
> that market by integrating debugging tools into the open-source PHP
> core. They've so far kept bytecode caching out of the standard PHP
> distribution as well.

bleah.

The wfDebugDieBacktrace() call would work well if you knew the codebase already,
what I was looking for was using the debugger as a teaching tool, to see
how the code was structured, and step through what it does.

And I *hate* graphical debugging environments. Do you know if Zend, dbg, or any
other IDE provides a cli interface?

I've tried php-dev, but they are noticably silent on the whole issue...

Ed


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Sanger response and rating system experiment

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> As Jimbo has said a couple of times (to me at the last London meet, and
> reported at a previous meet), the best thing to do with a rating system at
> the moment is ... nothing. Run the rating system for a time period, gather
> the data, *don't reveal it yet* for fear of affecting the rating
> experiment, *then* release the data for scrutiny and ideas. how people rate
> things given a simple system, see if the results of that rating accord with
> common sense, see if they approximate the desired Rating System That Scales
> (the way FAC doesn't quite).

Yes, perfect.

--Jimbo


from_name: MilchFlasche瑋平

body:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:49:11 +0800, Alex Kwan <litalex at slashyalex.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> MilchFlasche?? wrote:
> > they are all transcribed in hanzi. I myself would like to see several
> > whole articles totally in Wu or Cantonese, just to stun me how hard it
> > is for a Mandarin speaker to understand those languages.
>
> Give me a topic and I might try (for Cantonese/Yue).
> little Alex

Well then... How about an entry on Faye Wong, or on "Huang
Daxian"?????? Or to take some more "formal" topic (althought I don't
like the distinction between "serious" and "relaxed" topics; why
should we judge topics in respect to their relation with academic or
politic issues?), how about an entry for Dong Jianhua or "two systems
with in one nation"???????

Thank you a lot!:)

--
2005, make signs happen!


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wiktionary-l] About language names

body:
Hoi,
When we indicate languages in interwiki links, we write the names of
those languages as it is written in that language. So we get English,
Nederlands, Deutsch, ??? etc. I think it is a nice feature.

Some languages however are not written as they are written in that
language, think italiano, fran?ais or sicilianu. Basically, this is
wrong. The only reason I can think of why you want this, is for
"esthetic" reasons. These however take not into account the
sensibilities that are often associated with language names.

Thanks,
GerardM


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up

body:
Hi,

Le Saturday 29 January 2005 05:34, Erik Moeller a ?crit :
> I have set up three new Wikinews editions in accordance with community
> support:
>
> http://fr.wikinews.org/
>
> The page for requesting new editions is at:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition
>
> I'm not counting signatures without links to user pages on Meta or
> elsewhere for now, both because there has been lots of anonymous voting,
> and because I think a serious contributor could at least go to the
> effort of creating a user page.
>
> Let me know if there are any problems. The logo can be put into place by
> uploading a file called Wiki.png.

I was surprised that the French Wikinews was created even without a mention on
the French mailing list (wikifr-l) and fr.wikipedia Pump ("Bistro").
I?am interested by the idea of Wikinews, but I?won't have time to participate
in the near future. I think that the requirement of 5?editors who pledge to
*participate* in Wikinews is quite good before launching a project.
It doesn't seem this was met for the French Wikinews now.

> Regards,
>
> Erik

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] alternatives to dbg

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Edward Peschko wrote:
| On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 06:31:49PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
|>Mostly I just try to stick in a stack trace at fatal errors (as a
|>general rule, using wfDebugDieBacktrace()) and occasionally slip in a
|>temporary var_dump to see additional variable state. Crude, yes.
|>
| bleah.
|
| The wfDebugDieBacktrace() call would work well if you knew the
codebase already,
| what I was looking for was using the debugger as a teaching tool, to see
| how the code was structured, and step through what it does.

Well, that's a rather different question; you asked what we use for
debugging.

| And I *hate* graphical debugging environments. Do you know if Zend,
dbg, or any
| other IDE provides a cli interface?
|
| I've tried php-dev, but they are noticably silent on the whole issue...

Basically, the world of debugging PHP is a really crappy world, which
can barely support life.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFB/qIHwRnhpk1wk44RAh9ZAJ4u6PWEkLY5KrNswb2465XSKM9juwCgj6SH
UbiImYkCyzRqeqU/tzp5Fn0=
=t1T7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikitech-l] alternatives to dbg

body:
On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 01:24:23PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Edward Peschko wrote:
> | On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 06:31:49PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> |>Mostly I just try to stick in a stack trace at fatal errors (as a
> |>general rule, using wfDebugDieBacktrace()) and occasionally slip in a
> |>temporary var_dump to see additional variable state. Crude, yes.
> |>
> | bleah.
> |
> | The wfDebugDieBacktrace() call would work well if you knew the
> codebase already,
> | what I was looking for was using the debugger as a teaching tool, to see
> | how the code was structured, and step through what it does.
>
> Well, that's a rather different question; you asked what we use for
> debugging.

well, just to be pedantic, I asked for a command line debugging
environment. I didn't tell you what I was planning on using it for.. ;-)

I suppose I could go through the UML class diagrams and assorted
docs on wikipedia's code, but that sure as hell doesn't take the place
of stepping through something to see how it works.

I'm going to talk to the dbg developer at NuSphere, and see if he can't
update the dbg_cli project.

Ed


from_name: Peter Danenberg

subject: [Wikitech-l] alternatives to dbg

body:
> [...B]ut that sure as hell doesn't take the place
> of stepping through something to see how it works.

     In  good  sadness, Ed: whence the accoutrement; why not
`less', `grep', and a hard copy on cotton stock?

--
Peter Danenberg                                           .
wikisophia.org                                           ..:


from_name: Andrew Lih

body:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:46:24 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe the term usually used in English is "One China, two systems".

It's "One country, two systems."

There is still dispute as to whether there is "one China," w.r.t. PRC and ROC.

--
Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] About language names

body:
Hoi,

When we indicate languages in interwiki links, we write the names of
those languages as it is written in that language. So we get English,
Nederlands, Deutsch, ??? etc. I think it is a nice feature.

Some languages however are not written as they are written in that
language, think italiano, fran?ais or sicilianu. Basically, this is
wrong. The only reason I can think of why you want this, is for
"esthetic" reasons. These however take not into account the
sensibilities that are often associated with language names.

Thanks,
GerardM


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] About language names

body:
Not sure I understand. Italian and French are listed among the interwiki
links with their local name, exactly like German or English. So where is
the difference?

Alfio

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

>Hoi,
>
>When we indicate languages in interwiki links, we write the names of
>those languages as it is written in that language. So we get English,
>Nederlands, Deutsch, ??? etc. I think it is a nice feature.
>
>Some languages however are not written as they are written in that
>language, think italiano, fran?ais or sicilianu. Basically, this is
>wrong. The only reason I can think of why you want this, is for
>"esthetic" reasons. These however take not into account the
>sensibilities that are often associated with language names.
>
>Thanks,
>GerardM
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>