from_name: Arkadiusz Danilecki

body:
Hi there!
   I subscribed actually to discuss only one thing. From time to time i follow
some discussions without taking part in it. But this time i just could stop
myself for adding my point of view.

There are discussion about how bad, bad people caused some valuable editor to
leave (or wanting to leave) wikipedia. The problem is, that this "valuable"
editor with contacts with me and some of my friends behaved quite often in
vey unpleasant ways. He was unable to tolerate almost any Point of View
except his own. He was unable to accept that someone could write something
else because he has different PoV, not because he is troll or fanatic. He was
unable to actually discuss many things.

I know that he contributed a lot and sometimes was forcing more PoV-ish
outlook in some articles, if sometimes unintentionally. However, it seems
that some people are trying to paint him as some kind of saint.

I am on wikipedia since end of 2001. I met a lot of people which I respected a
lot more than him. People, who were able to discuss and argue. Which then
left because of trolls. Heck, even I once left wikipedia for few months
because i got frustrated because of trolls and because i stopped to add new
articles but only watched over old ones. But, for God's sake, the men you are
using as example of best valuable editor is the one which, amongst many
others "valuable editors", inspired me to write
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_to_deal_with_Poles). He had his vices.
And this all case is prime example that imposing MORE structures into
wikipedia does not change anything. Before there were arbitrations,
mediations, shmediations, etc there were trolls and people were leaving
wikipedia. If you will include another level: "the editors" you probably
would still get trolls, and valuable people instead of leaving, maybe won't
stop coming to wikipedia.

The solution would be to simply adding community voting mechanism for banning
someone from certain article (but not from talk pages!) or to add mechanism
for "pending changes", when every page change had to be voted until applied,
or something similar. That would at least forced people in talking in talk
pages instead of just reverting with remarks like "you are obsessed petty
fanatical troll".

A.D.Danilecki


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] revolving around Wikipedia

body:
Minty wrote

> whilst I'm here and incase anyone missed it, back in Sept. the uk's
> Guardian did a piece about wikipedia.  I found it very useful when
> trying to explain what it was all about to my mum - who's curious, but
> not entirely down with the lingo/ideas yet

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1302488,00.html

The Observer actually (some company owns it); this was mentioned on this
list.   And the week after a friendly paragraph in Spark, a pull-out
magazine, from one of the papers we get.

Charles


list: textbook-l

from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] automated table of contents pages and links to them

body:
Hello everyone, everything is nice here in Mexico, although
I don't have nearly as much time to play on the Internet.

If anyone can remind me how to create a link to an
automated Table of Contents page I will be grateful. I have
spent a couple of visits to the internet cafe trying to
figure it out. I would like to make a TOC for my study
guide on the Gospel of John (
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_John ) for
example. The one I did for the Wealthy Barber (
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Wealthy_Barber ) did not
work and I can't figure out (rembember) why. Thank you and
let me know if anyone wants a bottle of anything when I
come back ...

Karl

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


list: foundation-l

from_name: Nicolas Weeger

subject: [Foundation-l] OVH is now the owner of www.wikipedia.fr

body:
Anthere a ?crit :

> OVH is now the owner of www.wikipedia.fr

I thought you had to 'own' the trademark to a name to buy a domain
name in .fr (or at least justify why you wanted it)..... So do they
have something ressembling 'wikipedia'??

Ryo


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mediawiki evaluation

body:
Jonah Bossewitch wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> We are in the final phases of evaluating wikis - we intend to use them
> internally as well deploy it to faculty and students.  We anticipate the
> need to customize and extend these deployments, in both skins and
> functionality.
>
> A few questions:
>
> How far off is 1.4 from a beta release?

God only knows.

> Will there be a migration script from 1.3?

Yes.

> Will mediawiki 1.4 have better architectural support for plugins/extensions?
> Especially things like wikiwhiteboars/twikidraw/svg?

Plugin support is better in a very trivial way. A few more plugins have
been written or are in development, but nothing like TWikiDraw.

> What about anything comparable to macros (like moin moin) ?

No.

> Is there a systematic move towards phpTAL, or is it just being used in one
> skin?

Just one skin.

> Aside from scalability/performance (which is not a major concern for our
> deployments), do you have any great arguments for using the mediawiki over
> moinmoin?

Not that I can think of.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: NSK

subject: [Foundation-l] Is there news about the new GNU/FDL-version?

body:
On Tuesday 19 October 2004 17:26, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> I have read on this list some time ago about a new future version of the
> GNU/FDL license.

If you mean compatibility between GFDL and CC, I have questioned an FSFE
mailing list over this issue (not relating to WP). If they reply, do you want
me to forward?

--
NSK
Admin of http://portal.wikinerds.org
Project Manager of http://www.nerdypc.org
Project Manager of http://www.adapedia.org
Project Manager of http://maatworks.wikinerds.org


from_name: Matt R

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [jhyang@korea.net: Cooperation Request from the
	KoreanOverseas Information Service]

body:
 --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> To me, it is quite interesting in an abstract way that people are
> dying in (for example) Sudan this morning, and other people have a
> paid job which involves writing to me to complain about the name of a
> body of water.  One should think that there might be more important
> things to do in the world.

Of course, a lot of Wikipedia editing disputes could be analysed in a similar
manner. I'm sometimes appalled at the way I will get disproportionately annoyed
about, say, a minor WP spelling issue, but remain coldly indifferent to
suffering around the world. I'm not suggesting for a minute that attending to
the minutiae of Wikipedia articles isn't worthwhile [1]. Rather, I merely
conjecture that that when we find ourselves experiencing WikiStress, one
approach might be to ponder the serious problems that affect the majority of
the world who can't access Wikipedia even if they wanted to.

-- Matt (User:Matt Crypto)

[1] I reserve judgment on Pokemon ;-)

___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: John Pozniak

body:
Karl,

You created your automated TOC at
[[WealthyBarberTOC]], while it should have been at
[[Template:WealthyBarberTOC]].  I've moved it, so it
should work now.  The one fot the Gospel According to
Saint John would be at [[Template:GospelofJohnTOC]],
or something similar (like [[Template:Gospel fo John
TOC]], as spaces now work in the template namespace).

Hope this helps,

John (Gentgeen) Pozniak

--- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone, everything is nice here in Mexico,
> although
> I don't have nearly as much time to play on the
> Internet.
>
> If anyone can remind me how to create a link to an
> automated Table of Contents page I will be grateful.
> I have
> spent a couple of visits to the internet cafe trying
> to
> figure it out. I would like to make a TOC for my
> study
> guide on the Gospel of John (
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_John )
> for
> example. The one I did for the Wealthy Barber (
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Wealthy_Barber )
> did not
> work and I can't figure out (rembember) why. Thank
> you and
> let me know if anyone wants a bottle of anything
> when I
> come back ...
>
> Karl
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l
>


from_name: Rebecca

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [elian@djini.de: [Foundation-l] wikimedia conference,
	round two]

body:
> [Wonders when we can begin lobbying for Wikimeetup 2006 to be west of
> the Atlantic. =]

...or south of the Equator. ;)

-- ambi


from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [WikiEN-l]
 [elian-EFJ1a5riuIw-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org:
 wikimedia conference, round two]

body:
Delirium a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Best I can suggest is to prepare a *very* solid report for a city. Low
>> costs, good accomodation, plenty of locals to help, funny nights,
>> conference and sleeping at the same place... do all this, and you get
>> a chance ! :-)
>
>
> The main thing would probably be plane tickets, if anyone manages to
> come up with some great ideas or good pointers to cheap transatlantic
> tickets.  This depends partly on when exactly the conference is and how
> the airline market fluctuates over the next six months or so, but in the
> one European vacation I've paid for (not counting family trips when I
> was a kid), the plane tickets accounted for around 75% of the total trip
> costs.  It seems hard to find a transatlantic flight for under US$600 in
> the summer, and NYC-London is the only route that is even that
> cheap---most others are $800-$1100.
>
> Of course, perhaps something exciting could happen in the international
> airline market in the next few months...
>
> -Mark

Are you volunteering to try to negociate for us good travel
transatlantic ticket Mark ?

That is a great idea you have here, and I hope you can help on this.
It will be much appreciated.

Anthere


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] article on chinese myth-realm of dead

body:
By all means, go ahead. You don't need anyone's permission to cite a
Wikipedia article. Even U.S. court justices are doing it! ;) Look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia for the proper
format.

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:04:08 +0800, nikoru sanzo
<nikoru_sanzo at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings!
>
> I was doing some research on Chinese mythology, namely on the realm of the
> spirits. The research is for a fanfiction I'm writing. Your article on Yan
> Luo was very helpful.
>
> In light of this, I would like to ask permission to cite your website as one
> of my sources. I would either include it as a footnote or part of the
> Author's Notes at the end of the story/chapters.
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read my message. I hope you would be able
> to reply soon.
>
> I apologize for any inconvenience I may have caused you.
>
> sincerely,
> Nicole Calayan
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [WikiEN-l]
 [elian-EFJ1a5riuIw-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org:
 wikimedia conference, round two]

body:
Delirium a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Are you volunteering to try to negociate for us good travel
>> transatlantic ticket Mark ?
>>
>> That is a great idea you have here, and I hope you can help on this.
>> It will be much appreciated.
>
>
> I'll certainly be willing to help, but I have no particular experience
> in the travel market besides scouring the internet.  I could put
> together a list of the best prices I can personally find though, and
> people can wiki-update as necessary.  If there are any people who
> actually work as travel agents who can help us out, that'd of course be
> ideal. =]
>
> One caveat is that it's very hard to predict the best prices.  It used
> to be true that basically the earlier you buy tickets in advance, the
> cheaper they are.  That's no longer true, because sometimes as the date
> pulls closer prices will drop dramatically if it turns out there's too
> many unsold seats left and the airline needs to get rid of them (last
> year ticket prices for flights in June and July dropped quite a bit in
> March and April).  But you can't count on or predict that well either,
> so all we can really do is give people information and let them guess
> for themselves...
>
> -Mark

Yeah, that is true...
Well, information might reveal valuable anyway I think. I would suppose
that north american, especially on the east cost, should be able to find
devent prices. I remember some Paris-New York deals could be really nice.

ant


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Having mediawiki fetch html and embed it in a page

body:
Brian Peyton stated for the record:
> I was wondering if it is possible, or with minimal modification to the
> code, to have mediawiki fetch some html and embed it in a page.

/me boggles at the possiblities for truly horrific vandalism....


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mediawiki evaluation

body:
On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 05:38:55PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> Jonah Bossewitch wrote:
> >Hi everyone,
> >
>
> >Is there a systematic move towards phpTAL, or is it just being used in one
> >skin?
>
> Just one skin.
>
There are at least two other PHPTal based skins in CVS HEAD, Amethyst and
Chick.

	Regards,

		JeLuF


from_name: SubGenius Networks

subject: [WikiEN-l] [Fwd: SubGenius / Subgenius]

body:
Love that "Bob" -but it's not about Church; it's about Slack.
I will attempt to develop suitable entry's to appease all involved
atleast as far as legal liability allows. We're currently involved in
a legal case over trademark. You my follow along at home if you
desire. USPTO.GOV

SUBGENIUS IS BiGGER THAN "BOB".
LET THERE BE SLACK.


from_name: Joel Wiesmann

subject: [Wikitech-l] Detailled documentation for special pages

body:
Hi there

I'm having fun hacking my local metawiki installation. Currently I'm
trying to implement a calendar
(I think would be something new?) as a special page. What I miss, are
detailed informations about
the global variables like wgOut and wgRequest. $wgOut isn't that hard,
because a var_dump will
show detailed informations - but unfortunately that doesn't work with
$wgRequest :(. Is there
_any_ more detailed documentation about the metawiki internals than the
informations on meta.wikipedia.org?
I searched almost everywhere.. and the mailing-list archive seems not to
have a search function!

Regards & great work,
Joel Wiesmann


from_name: Jens Ropers

body:
Well said Sire!

On 19 Oct 2004, at 18:13, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

> To me, it is quite interesting in an abstract way that people are
> dying in (for example) Sudan this morning, and other people have a
> paid job which involves writing to me to complain about the name of a
> body of water.


from_name: Brian Peyton

body:
I was wondering if it is possible, or with minimal modification to the
code, to have mediawiki fetch some html and embed it in a page.  I'd
like to have some web page programs in a wiki webpage, however I don't
want to disturb the look of the website.

Is there a way to do this with a tag such as:
Some wiki text
{{embed: http://randomwebsite.com/program.cgi}}
more wiki text

now, or another easy way to do it?


body:
I've turned off page editing for anonymous people, and I have it setup so people can't create accounts.  So it *should* (hopefully) be fine.
>Brian Peyton stated for the record:
>> I was wondering if it is possible, or with minimal modification to the
>> code, to have mediawiki fetch some html and embed it in a page.
>
>/me boggles at the possiblities for truly horrific vandalism....


from_name: Cyril Thomas

subject: [WikiEN-l] GWB Picture vandalism

body:
It is not fixed yet, how can it be fixed or removed?

-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Russell
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 12:56 AM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] GWB Picture vandalism

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:00:20 -0400, The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com>
wrote:
> On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush somehow the thumb of
GWB in
> National Guard gear has been replaced by a pic of Hitler.
>
> Ha, ha, bad joke.
>
> I can't figure out how to fix it/who did it.

Kate/kturner on #mediawiki fixed it, not sure exactly what she did.

Pak
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Canada and Massachusetts sites
	noticing	wikibooks/versity

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Sj wrote:
>
>> And does anyone know these Canadian IT Traning people?  They
>> apparently just started setting up a site, but half of their links are
>> to Wikimedia projects... and they're obviously waiting for a
>> wikiversity site to be set up (check their one "Press Release").
>>  http://www.canadianittraining.com/Main.htm
>>
> I'm trying to make sense of this.
>
> I'm naturally suspicious of this.  They have too many domain names
> which appeared when I looked more closely at the contact information.
> They also have canadianitoverseas.com and
> educationbeyondboundaries.com which link back to the same website.
>
> The phone number for the CEO is listed as belonging to one W. Jolly of
> Richmond Hill, Ont.  The other phone number appears to be unlisted.
>
> I also followed through the link to their Nova Scotia based Web design
> provider.  That gave me another site of theirs at
> http://www.cittilearningsystems.com/  That, at least, has a more
> substantial page about the courses that they offer, mostly IT and
> business related but with none of the courses being described beyond
> having a title.  Evolution Learning of Halifax
> http://www.evolutionlearning.com/# also seems to be theirs.  The lack
> of any personal names to all this is an alert to me.
>
> I suspect something like Vancouver University International that was
> dicscussed not long ago.  They may be trying to piggyback on
> Wikiversity to build credibility for themselves!!! :-D   So far their
> track record is too slim to be meaningful.

Further to the above I have pre-emptively registered the domain
wikiversity.ca

Ec


from_name: Allan Crossman

subject: [WikiEN-l] GWB Picture vandalism

body:
 > On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush somehow the thumb of
 > GWB in National Guard gear has been replaced by a pic of Hitler.

This seems to be some sort of caching problem - the pic was fixed and
protected on the 18th, but strangely some people still seem to get the
Hitler pic (though I see it's been de-linked from the article now...)

--
Allan Crossman - a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk
The Moon is Waxing Crescent (41% of Full)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Multiple image versions - why bother?

body:
Hi,

Someone on IRC, I forget who, suggested that we should end this ability
to upload new revisions of images. I agree.

It's something vandals can use to alter articles without affecting the
watchlist; it also means that when looking at an old version of a page,
you don't necessarily see what content was there at the time.

In addition, the image usage (with reversions, etc) is quite tricky, and
there seem to be some caching problems that can lead to people seeing an
old version.

I suggest that we simply change the system so that, if you want to
upload an image, you must give it a unique filename. You can then alter
articles as necessary to link to the new version.

--
Allan Crossman - a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk
The Moon is Waxing Crescent (41% of Full)


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Britannica trashed,
	Wikipedia (and Encarta) noted as preferable

body:
HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN. ALL YOUR ENCYCLOPEDIA ARE BELONG TO US.

More Britannica-bashing (with a splash of Wikilove):
http://macuser.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/64348

One interesting point: from the article:

>> The search feature is functional but unintelligent: it won't correct
>> 'apppendix', for example, or find anything at all if you ask it about
>> the humble, misspelt 'bananana'. It will discretely warn you of your
>> mistake by turning your search term red, but when sites such as
>> Google can take a guess at what your poorly spelt words mean, we
>> don't see why an encyclopaedia shouldn't be able to do the same.

Of course we currently already create "misspellings" redirects
(manually), but that's no substitute for a "fuzzy logic"
implementation. This may take the form of an extra "Did you
mean..."-box on the "WP does not yet have an article"-page.  If such is
considered useful, someone (<slacker>i.e. someone else ;-)</slacker>)
could BugZillify this as a Feature Request.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Britannica trashed,
	Wikipedia (and Encarta) noted as preferable

body:
To add:
As an owner of the "Britannica Deluxe CD 2000" , lemme add that it's
really odd how they absolutely, positively don't learn from their
mistakes.

The "electronic" Britannica was crap 4 years ago and it's still crap
today. Yes, they've eventually made a Mac version again and made a PC
version that doesn't break when you upgrade your browser. But really. I
mean. 4 effed-up years. That's a bleeding eternity in IT terms. All the
worse because I really love their content -- only the "wrapping" is
such a royal pain in the bottle and glass. We should learn from the
EB's miserable failure.
</rant>

DISCLAIMER: The occurrence of phrases such as "4 effed-up years" and
"miserable failure" is a complete coincidence and in no way whatsoever
related to any kind of current events. Besides, if there's anything
wrong with anything emanating from my address, there's probably some
minion to blame -- never me. <WMD>Because I never lie nor err.</WMD>

On 20 Oct 2004, at 04:16, Jens Ropers wrote:

> HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN. ALL YOUR ENCYCLOPEDIA ARE BELONG TO US.
>
> More Britannica-bashing (with a splash of Wikilove):
> http://macuser.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/64348
>
>
> One interesting point: from the article:
>
>>> The search feature is functional but unintelligent: it won't correct
>>> 'apppendix', for example, or find anything at all if you ask it
>>> about the humble, misspelt 'bananana'. It will discretely warn you
>>> of your mistake by turning your search term red, but when sites such
>>> as Google can take a guess at what your poorly spelt words mean, we
>>> don't see why an encyclopaedia shouldn't be able to do the same.
>
> Of course we currently already create "misspellings" redirects
> (manually), but that's no substitute for a "fuzzy logic"
> implementation. This may take the form of an extra "Did you
> mean..."-box on the "WP does not yet have an article"-page.  If such
> is considered useful, someone (<slacker>i.e. someone else
> ;-)</slacker>) could BugZillify this as a Feature Request.
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com
>


body:
On Wednesday 20 October 2004 05:35, Allan Crossman wrote:
> Someone on IRC, I forget who, suggested that we should end this ability
> to upload new revisions of images. I agree.

Sounds a good idea. How could I immediately implement it in my mediawiki
installation?

--
NSK
Admin of http://portal.wikinerds.org
Project Manager of http://www.nerdypc.org
Project Manager of http://www.adapedia.org
Project Manager of http://maatworks.wikinerds.org


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

body:
Without expressing any particular opinion on this topic, I merely
offer the following datapoint.

Yesterday, I took a photo of George Bush and uploaded it, and linked
it into the article.  Someone else at the same event (small world) did
the same, changed the photo in the article to his instead of mine.  No
problem.

But, his photo, when I clicked on it, appeared as a vandal photo.
That is, the thumbnail in the article was fine, but the photo
underneath was bad.

At one point, I checked the history of that photo, and all revisions
were from the same person, and all were evil.  However, this does not
seem to be the case in reality... the reality is, there was a caching
problem... (?)

The poor other fellow almost got blocked by me for vandalism, it's
just that I usually try not to block people if I'm the least bit
confused, because since it is me, people will take notice and I'm the
last person to want to violate any rules. :-)

When I got home to research it more, (a) I still saw the bad photo on
my laptop, which had *NOT* looked at this article before, ever.  This
implies that the caching problem was not a local browser cache! and
(b) the history now looked accurate, showing the original, the
vandalism, and the fix.

Anyhow, my sense of things is just that it's hard for editors who are
trying to combat photo vandalism to figure out what is going on.

--Jimbo

p.s. Separately, my wife called me while I was driving home, and she
had looked at the article on her computer, and in her case she saw the
goatse.cx image there.  this was not a caching issue nor was it the
same issue at all, but just routine vandalism.  I am more convinced
than ever now that we need a "soft protect" mode of "slow publishing"
for certain very very popular and very very important articles.

By "slow publishing" this is not my idea, but one that has been
discussed as far back as when I was in Berlin at least... the idea is
that the latest version of an article is only shown on the main url
once it is 10 minutes old, or if a sysop deliberately clicked on
'publish now'.  This gives a rolling window to combat stupid
vandalism, rather than having it on the site for even 3 minutes.


subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost

body:
Just for an update (though I am not quite sure anyone care here), the
french domain name is not in the hand of OVH but quite certainly of a
cybersquatter (in relation with OVH).

The phone number he offered for registration is not valid (it is
normally mandatory, but the phone number does not exist).

The mail address is of a rather "special" profile : blaguekoihoo at aol.com
(blague means joke in french).

We can't understand how he could register, since the .fr domain can only
be registered by a firm or an organisation, which was why we had to wait
till the association will be created... in possibly 2 weeks from now :-(

If it had been squatted by a firm, we could have thought of using "bad
press" to negociate with them.
With a private person... well, we might have only the legal path.

In any cases, Notafish has volunteered to get information on the matter.

She send yesterday the person an email.

-----

For now, the wikipedia.fr is not redirected anywhere.
We'll keep hope it won't be used for nazi propaganda, hard porn or
worse, a biaised encyclopedia named wikipedia :-(


subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] mediawiki evaluation

body:
Jonah-
> Aside from scalability/performance (which is not a major concern for our
> deployments), do you have any great arguments for using the mediawiki over
> moinmoin?

A while ago, I did a comparison of several wiki engines for c't magazine
(German only): PhpWiki, MediaWiki, TWiki, UsemodWiki and MoinMoin. I have
since also had some experience with TikiWiki and ZWiki.

MoinMoin is a well-designed and highly modular engine. It's a good
compromise between something simple and hackish like UseMod and a very
powerful database solution like MediaWiki. What I missed the last time I
tested it was an option to turn off CamelCase completely. I'm a strong
opponent of CamelCase because it is, in my opinion, a huge usability
error: pages become unreadable and the content gets much harder to search.
A combination of CamelCase and free links is almost worse because it leads
to inconsistencies. Note that the sensitivity to CamelCase is different
from person to person, and from language to language.

MediaWiki has some goodies which few other wikis offer:
* intuitive namespace system to separate discussions about articles from
  articles, and images/user pages/policy pages from content pages
* ability to edit individual sections, very handy for large pages
* template system and arbitrary page inclusion
* ability to edit almost any part of the UI within the wiki through the
  MediaWiki: namespace
* graphical edit toolbar that works in Mozilla and IE
* transparent merging of pages in cases of conflicts
* auto-thumbnailing and easy captioning syntax for images
* translations into virtually every world language

See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_features for the full feature
list.

These advantages in combination with a strict adherence to the free links
paradigm would make me use MediaWiki in almost any situation, except for
the most basic installs. But the biggest argument in favor of MediaWiki is
that it is in use in the largest wiki installations of the world.

This should not be reduced simply to scalability. The gigantic Wikipedia
community in particular provides us with constant feedback through our bug
tracking system, user talk pages, pages on meta.wikimedia.org, and so
forth. When we screw up, we hear about it. New features are usually
carefully tested before they go into an official release version. These
testing standards will only become more rigorous as Wikimedia grows.

MediaWiki carries virtually no risk of being abandoned or stagnating, and
relatively little risk of going into a radically wrong direction.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Karl Wick

body:
Thanks Genteen!

Karl

--- John Pozniak <gentgeen> wrote:

> Karl,
>
> You created your automated TOC at
> [[WealthyBarberTOC]], while it should have been at
> [[Template:WealthyBarberTOC]].  I've moved it, so it
> should work now.  The one fot the Gospel According to
> Saint John would be at [[Template:GospelofJohnTOC]],
> or something similar (like [[Template:Gospel fo John
> TOC]], as spaces now work in the template namespace).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> John (Gentgeen) Pozniak

>
> > Hello everyone, everything is nice here in Mexico,
> > although
> > I don't have nearly as much time to play on the
> > Internet.
> >
> > If anyone can remind me how to create a link to an
> > automated Table of Contents page I will be grateful.
> > I have
> > spent a couple of visits to the internet cafe trying
> > to
> > figure it out. I would like to make a TOC for my
> > study
> > guide on the Gospel of John (
> > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_John )
> > for
> > example. The one I did for the Wealthy Barber (
> > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Wealthy_Barber )
> > did not
> > work and I can't figure out (rembember) why. Thank
> > you and
> > let me know if anyone wants a bottle of anything
> > when I
> > come back ...
> >
> > Karl

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from_name: Stan Shebs

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Britannica trashed,	Wikipedia (and Encarta) noted
	as preferable

body:
In practice, what happens is that people who know less than they think
they do create new articles from the red link, and things get messy
from there. There are a bunch of less-obvious misspellings too - in
some cases it's taken a bit of research to determine the correct one
of several spellings; in such cases the redirect is effectively WP's
record of research on the subject.

Mispelling redirs also make it easy to use "what links here" to find
all the misspellings.

Stan

Zoney wrote:

>: "Of course we currently already create "misspellings" redirects
>(manually)"
>
>Do we? I don't see why. Having such a redirect suggests that at some
>point it will be used. That means a link with the wrong spelling. Now
>I don't know about the rest of you, but I would much rather see a red
>link than a blue one on a misspelling! Anyone using preview is more
>likely to be alerted to the misspelling, not to mention the reader or
>another editor if the misspelling is saved! (Yes, I realise people
>should be using spellcheckers, but they probably aren't!)
>
>Anyways, I think misspelt words should not be catered for!
>
>Zoney
>
>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:46:01 +0800, ruimu uestc <ruimu at uestc.edu.cn> wrote:
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Jens Ropers" <ropers at ropersonline.com>
>>
>>> BugZillify this as a Feature Request.
>>>
>>I also love playing with languages but I sometime feel like I'm not that
>>welcomed to understand some of the writings in this list. I'm very sad to
>>only be French (and to blindly use split infinitive :) but I wished I had
>>enough boldness to ask writers to stay in certain limits of
>>understandability (<-- I know this word is horrific, but it's easy to
>>understand for most readers, isn't it ?)
>>
>>Note that this comment isn't directly adressed to Jens but to all the
>>contributors. Wikipedia isn't only written by native geeks swimming everyday
>>in their slangy localized bath, my dear friends !
>>
>>(gbog)
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>
>


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Spanish Translation of the Week

body:
--- Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com> wrote:

> The Spanish Translation of the Week
> [[wikipedia:Spanish_Translation_of_the_Week]] has been launched, with
> the aim of collaboratively translating feature article quality
> articles from the spanish wikipedia into the english wikipedia it is
> hoped that this effort will help spark more collaborative translation
> efforts.

What a neat idea! We should do the opposite as well, but I'm sure that is
already done in an unorganized way.

BTW, one idea for Wikiversity would be to assign students studying languages
foreign to them to do this type of thing.

-- mav

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from_name: Magnus Manske

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [jhyang@korea.net: Cooperation Request from
	the	KoreanOverseas Information Service]

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>To me, it is quite interesting in an abstract way that people are
>dying in (for example) Sudan this morning, and other people have a
>paid job which involves writing to me to complain about the name of a
>body of water.  One should think that there might be more important
>things to do in the world.
>
>
>
If you think the "Sea of" thing is a little absurd, you obviously
haven't been introduced to the people from the German "Institute of
Biophotonics", who have found wikipedia to be part of Yet Another
Conspiracy, for not using the word "biophotonics" they way they define
it, but instead using it the way everyone else defines it and just
mentioning their POV...

Magnus


from_name: Matthias Pospiech

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mediawiki evaluation

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

> Jonah-
>> Aside from scalability/performance (which is not a major concern for our
>> deployments), do you have any great arguments for using the mediawiki
>> over moinmoin?
>
> A while ago, I did a comparison of several wiki engines for c't magazine
> (German only): PhpWiki, MediaWiki, TWiki, UsemodWiki and MoinMoin. I have
> since also had some experience with TikiWiki and ZWiki.

I can remember that article quite well. Have there been any important
changes in those Wiki Systems since then ?
We are currently discussing to use either mediawiki or twiki. Though I have
with neither any experience it appears to me that plugins and themes are
much easier to implement in twiki than in mediawiki.

I am personally as well looking for a wiki than can be included in parts of
a homepage. For example in a way that everything inside a special <div> is
used for the wiki content and the rest is independent. Possible ??

Matthias

---------------------------------
www.matthiaspospiech.de


from_name: Rick

body:
I thoroughly, completely, 100% agree with you, but I've already lost this battle at [[Redirects for deletion]].

RickK

Zoney <zoney.ie at gmail.com> wrote:
: "Of course we currently already create "misspellings" redirects
(manually)"

Do we? I don't see why. Having such a redirect suggests that at some
point it will be used. That means a link with the wrong spelling. Now
I don't know about the rest of you, but I would much rather see a red
link than a blue one on a misspelling! Anyone using preview is more
likely to be alerted to the misspelling, not to mention the reader or
another editor if the misspelling is saved! (Yes, I realise people
should be using spellcheckers, but they probably aren't!)

Anyways, I think misspelt words should not be catered for!

Zoney

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from_name: Jonah Bossewitch

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mediawiki evaluation

body:
Hi Erik,

Mediawiki's extras are certainly impressive.  Even something as simple
as the auto table-of-contents generation, coupled w/ section editing,
which arguably could be construed as a presentation detail, informs and
influences the growth of the wiki and the proliferation of pages vs.
articles.

I just lament the lack of a compenent architecture that allows for the
inclusion of third party extras.  A drawing tool would be really nice,
  a calendar widget would be very useful on intranets, etc etc.

I am sensitive to the dangers of treating a wiki like an application
development platform. Developing macros for use within a wiki probably
gets out of hand quickly.  However, it is often so tempting to customize
a wiki that if you don't have the ability to extend it, you end up
hacking through the constraints of the existing system to get it to do
what you want

Which leads to the consideration of cms's that embed wikis, like
Plone/Zwiki, or Xoops/wakka wiki.  Trouble is that these wikis are less
featureful than the power wikis like mediawiki and moin moin.

Perhaps the best way to think about these wikis is to accept their
wikiness as they are, and stop trying to extend them.

Still there will be text areas on your site, outside of your wiki where
you might want to accept wiki syntax.  Does mediawiki have an api that
lets you easily use its parser?

Thanks for the references. If you have the link to the german version
I'll babble it.

Jonah

> MediaWiki has some goodies which few other wikis offer:
> * intuitive namespace system to separate discussions about articles from
>   articles, and images/user pages/policy pages from content pages
> * ability to edit individual sections, very handy for large pages
> * template system and arbitrary page inclusion
> * ability to edit almost any part of the UI within the wiki through the
>   MediaWiki: namespace
> * graphical edit toolbar that works in Mozilla and IE
> * transparent merging of pages in cases of conflicts
> * auto-thumbnailing and easy captioning syntax for images
> * translations into virtually every world language
>
> See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_features for the full feature
> list.
>
> These advantages in combination with a strict adherence to the free links
> paradigm would make me use MediaWiki in almost any situation, except for
> the most basic installs. But the biggest argument in favor of MediaWiki is
> that it is in use in the largest wiki installations of the world.
>
> This should not be reduced simply to scalability. The gigantic Wikipedia
> community in particular provides us with constant feedback through our bug
> tracking system, user talk pages, pages on meta.wikimedia.org, and so
> forth. When we screw up, we hear about it. New features are usually
> carefully tested before they go into an official release version. These
> testing standards will only become more rigorous as Wikimedia grows.
>
> MediaWiki carries virtually no risk of being abandoned or stagnating, and
> relatively little risk of going into a radically wrong direction.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik


from_name: Mark Richards

subject: [WikiEN-l] One men's valuable editor is another one's troll

body:
Someone who annoys you then, or with whom you
disagree?
Mark

--- Rebecca <misfitgirl at gmail.com> wrote:

> ...or someone who knows full well what our
> definition of troll is,
> having read the numerous policy discussions on the
> subject, but
> chooses to misrepresent it for
> god-knows-what-reason.
>
> -- ambi
>
>
> On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:15:57 -0700 (PDT), Mark
> Richards
> <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Erm, as far as I can see, we havn't got any
> further
> > than the traditional definition of a troll as:
> >
> > "Someone who annoys me"
> > or
> > "Someone I disagree with".
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > --- Arkadiusz Danilecki
> <adanilecki at cs.put.poznan.pl>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi there!
> > >    I subscribed actually to discuss only one
> thing.
> > > From time to time i follow
> > > some discussions without taking part in it. But
> this
> > > time i just could stop
> > > myself for adding my point of view.
> > >
> > > There are discussion about how bad, bad people
> > > caused some valuable editor to
> > > leave (or wanting to leave) wikipedia. The
> problem
> > > is, that this "valuable"
> > > editor with contacts with me and some of my
> friends
> > > behaved quite often in
> > > vey unpleasant ways. He was unable to tolerate
> > > almost any Point of View
> > > except his own. He was unable to accept that
> someone
> > > could write something
> > > else because he has different PoV, not because
> he is
> > > troll or fanatic. He was
> > > unable to actually discuss many things.
> > >
> > > I know that he contributed a lot and sometimes
> was
> > > forcing more PoV-ish
> > > outlook in some articles, if sometimes
> > > unintentionally. However, it seems
> > > that some people are trying to paint him as some
> > > kind of saint.
> > >
> > > I am on wikipedia since end of 2001. I met a lot
> of
> > > people which I respected a
> > > lot more than him. People, who were able to
> discuss
> > > and argue. Which then
> > > left because of trolls. Heck, even I once left
> > > wikipedia for few months
> > > because i got frustrated because of trolls and
> > > because i stopped to add new
> > > articles but only watched over old ones. But,
> for
> > > God's sake, the men you are
> > > using as example of best valuable editor is the
> one
> > > which, amongst many
> > > others "valuable editors", inspired me to write
> > >
> >
>
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_to_deal_with_Poles).
> > > He had his vices.
> > > And this all case is prime example that imposing
> > > MORE structures into
> > > wikipedia does not change anything. Before there
> > > were arbitrations,
> > > mediations, shmediations, etc there were trolls
> and
> > > people were leaving
> > > wikipedia. If you will include another level:
> "the
> > > editors" you probably
> > > would still get trolls, and valuable people
> instead
> > > of leaving, maybe won't
> > > stop coming to wikipedia.
> > >
> > > The solution would be to simply adding community
> > > voting mechanism for banning
> > > someone from certain article (but not from talk
> > > pages!) or to add mechanism
> > > for "pending changes", when every page change
> had to
> > > be voted until applied,
> > > or something similar. That would at least forced
> > > people in talking in talk
> > > pages instead of just reverting with remarks
> like
> > > "you are obsessed petty
> > > fanatical troll".
> > >
> > > A.D.Danilecki
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > http://vote.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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body:
Common misspellings should be created as redirect
links.
Mrak

--- Zoney <zoney.ie at gmail.com> wrote:

> : "Of course we currently already create
> "misspellings" redirects
> (manually)"
>
> Do we? I don't see why. Having such a redirect
> suggests that at some
> point it will be used. That means a link with the
> wrong spelling. Now
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I would much
> rather see a red
> link than a blue one on a misspelling! Anyone using
> preview is more
> likely to be alerted to the misspelling, not to
> mention the reader or
> another editor if the misspelling is saved! (Yes, I
> realise people
> should be using spellcheckers, but they probably
> aren't!)
>
> Anyways, I think misspelt words should not be
> catered for!
>
> Zoney
>
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:46:01 +0800, ruimu uestc
> <ruimu at uestc.edu.cn> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jens Ropers" <ropers at ropersonline.com>
> > >
> > >  BugZillify this as a Feature Request.
> >
> > I also love playing with languages but I sometime
> feel like I'm not that
> > welcomed to understand some of the writings in
> this list. I'm very sad to
> > only be French (and to blindly use split
> infinitive :) but I wished I had
> > enough boldness to ask writers to stay in certain
> limits of
> > understandability (<-- I know this word is
> horrific, but it's easy to
> > understand for most readers, isn't it ?)
> >
> > Note that this comment isn't directly adressed to
> Jens but to all the
> > contributors. Wikipedia isn't only written by
> native geeks swimming everyday
> > in their slangy localized bath, my dear friends !
> >
> > (gbog)
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> --
> *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5
> seconds...
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Trigger-happy New Pages patrol

body:
Yes, rapid fire drive-by-deletion is out of control.
People list articles within minutes of their creation,
without doing even basic due dilligence to see whether
they meet the criteria for deletion.
Mark

--- Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

> In the course of less than an hour I have come
> across one speedy delete
> notice, two Wiktionary move notices, and a VfD
> notice, all attached to new
> short mathematics pages.  All of which would
> properly be labelled stubs.
>
> The Wikipedians responsible don't have specialist
> knowledge - they seem to
> feel that remedies for stubs other than stub notices
> should exist (and in
> one case, thinks that if it looks like a typographjc
> mess, it must be
> nonsense).
>
> As far as I'm concerned, Wikipedia still needs stubs
> to grow, precisely in
> areas where it is currently weak.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Rebecca

subject: [WikiEN-l] Requests for arbitration refactoring

body:
The Cunctator,
Perhaps if you make a unilateral change, and find numerous people
disagreeing with it, and no one who backs you up, then it might
suggest that the move wasn't wise to make in the first place.

And IIRC, it was Raul who remerged the page.

-- ambi

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:49:27 -0400, The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Sorry, this was supposed to go to Mark.
>
> Gah.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
...or someone who knows full well what our definition of troll is,
having read the numerous policy discussions on the subject, but
chooses to misrepresent it for god-knows-what-reason.

-- ambi

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:15:57 -0700 (PDT), Mark Richards
<marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Erm, as far as I can see, we havn't got any further
> than the traditional definition of a troll as:
>
> "Someone who annoys me"
> or
> "Someone I disagree with".
>
> Mark
>
> --- Arkadiusz Danilecki <adanilecki at cs.put.poznan.pl>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi there!
> >    I subscribed actually to discuss only one thing.
> > From time to time i follow
> > some discussions without taking part in it. But this
> > time i just could stop
> > myself for adding my point of view.
> >
> > There are discussion about how bad, bad people
> > caused some valuable editor to
> > leave (or wanting to leave) wikipedia. The problem
> > is, that this "valuable"
> > editor with contacts with me and some of my friends
> > behaved quite often in
> > vey unpleasant ways. He was unable to tolerate
> > almost any Point of View
> > except his own. He was unable to accept that someone
> > could write something
> > else because he has different PoV, not because he is
> > troll or fanatic. He was
> > unable to actually discuss many things.
> >
> > I know that he contributed a lot and sometimes was
> > forcing more PoV-ish
> > outlook in some articles, if sometimes
> > unintentionally. However, it seems
> > that some people are trying to paint him as some
> > kind of saint.
> >
> > I am on wikipedia since end of 2001. I met a lot of
> > people which I respected a
> > lot more than him. People, who were able to discuss
> > and argue. Which then
> > left because of trolls. Heck, even I once left
> > wikipedia for few months
> > because i got frustrated because of trolls and
> > because i stopped to add new
> > articles but only watched over old ones. But, for
> > God's sake, the men you are
> > using as example of best valuable editor is the one
> > which, amongst many
> > others "valuable editors", inspired me to write
> >
> (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_to_deal_with_Poles).
> > He had his vices.
> > And this all case is prime example that imposing
> > MORE structures into
> > wikipedia does not change anything. Before there
> > were arbitrations,
> > mediations, shmediations, etc there were trolls and
> > people were leaving
> > wikipedia. If you will include another level: "the
> > editors" you probably
> > would still get trolls, and valuable people instead
> > of leaving, maybe won't
> > stop coming to wikipedia.
> >
> > The solution would be to simply adding community
> > voting mechanism for banning
> > someone from certain article (but not from talk
> > pages!) or to add mechanism
> > for "pending changes", when every page change had to
> > be voted until applied,
> > or something similar. That would at least forced
> > people in talking in talk
> > pages instead of just reverting with remarks like
> > "you are obsessed petty
> > fanatical troll".
> >
> > A.D.Danilecki
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [WikiEN-l] [Fwd: SubGenius / Subgenius]

body:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	SubGenius / Subgenius
Date: 	Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:10:26 -0700
From: 	SubGenius Networks <HardlyBoffin at gmail.com>
Reply-To: 	SubGenius Networks <HardlyBoffin at gmail.com>
To: 	abuse at wikipedia.org

A user 'GRUNT' who seems to be able to ban users has banned me after
correcting the aforementioned subjects, subject entry for SUBGENIUS.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Grunt
"Despite his strong political views he strives to stay neutral in
disputes and in material submitted to Wikipedia."

I am a founder of SubGenius Networks?
SubGenius Networks is a trademark of SubGenius Networks.?
As grunt seems to have an issue with my correction; i left him the
following message.

"We're not defining 'SubGenius Networks' nor 'The Church of the
SubGenius'. SUBGENIUS ALONE is the subject of this post and SUBGENIUS
has a meaning apart from 'The Church of the SubGenius'.  SUBGENIUS is
a public domain word in use as part of 'SubGenius Networks?' own
trademark."

SUBGENIUS ALONE, as it is defined.. has two meanings.

--------- BEGIN CORRECT DATA ---------
1. A denizen of the underground "subculture", attuned to the obscure.<br>
2. Basis of the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Subgenius
Church of the Subgenius].

SUBGENIUS is part of the trademark SubGenius Networks? (
[http://www.subgenius.net subgenius.net]) in addition to the title of
a "religion". ( [http://www.subgenius.com subgenius.com]).

--------- END CORRECT DATA ---------

SUBGENIUS itself is not a registered trademark. The term is in fact
PUBLIC DOMAIN and was adopted by SubGenius Networks? in 1996. A
trademark application was filed in 2000 by the 'church of the
subgenius' to which we are objecting on prior rights use to the single
word.

 Wikipedia's redirect from SubGenius/Subgenius to 'the church of the
subgenius' is in error.


from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Objecting to hatespeech is grounds for being banned?
	Huh?!

body:
Delirium wrote:
> I didn't participate in this particular Arbitration decision, so this is
> just my personal view, but I don't think it was inconsistent or
> unjustifiable.  Any particular action by RK doesn't warrant banning IMO,
> but this is not one particular action.  There is a *lengthy* series of
> actions, and he's been at the center of numerous disputes over the past
> year or so.  Some are not his fault, and some are.  Generally, he
> appears to go ballistic during most of them, which causes problems.  If
> you look through this mailing list's archives, you'll find quite a few
> tirades from him, including his belief that Wikipedia ought to be called
> "Nazipedia" due to its antisemitism (a statement I don't think he ever
> actually retracted).  On the whole, he's accounted for a
> disproportionate share of problem-resolution time, and I don't think
> it's entirely due to the people he contends with.  It's a tough call
> because he also has been a good faith contributor, but I think if you
> look at other decisions, it's consistent.  IMO this case is clearer than
> Wik's case, for example.
>
> -Mark

How amusing. I have seen just as many people call Wikipedia a biased in
favour of Jews.

TBSDY


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Red Herring article on wiki wars

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
> The article does not reflect badly on us or anything, but I can say
> that the reporters wrote the article that they wanted to write, my
> comments completely notwithstanding.
>
> --Jimbo

In other, the article is a "red herring"?

TBSDY


from_name: Andreas Hoerstemeier

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Multiple image versions - why bother?

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> But, his photo, when I clicked on it, appeared as a vandal photo.
> That is, the thumbnail in the article was fine, but the photo
> underneath was bad.
It seems you are referring to Bug 743
(http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=743) - the image rollback
functionality seems to be broken, instead of restoring the old version
it overrides the old version with the current one - thus spreading the
bad revision instead of hiding it. Day before yesterday the same
happened, and I had to reupload the image to solve the problem. But as
the same happended yesterday this vandal must be rather persistant, and
the bug rather high priority.

Bye,
    Andy


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mediawiki evaluation

references:
<cl2900$c2$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9JCId8rSpVB@erik_moeller>	<cl6288$2fr$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c04102010163e32af8@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:

>I suspect that this could be very difficult with the current state of
>MediaWiki - the "parser", such as it is, is highly coupled with the
>database representation on the one hand (through code like Title.php)
>and the output system (Skin.php) on the other. As yet, there's no real
>parser that can produce an intermediate representation of content
>rather than a whole wiki-page.
>
>
I think when Timwi's parser is done it will do essentially this: it's a
lex/yacc (lex/bison?) grammar-based parser that generates an abstract
syntax tree representing the wikitext, from which various output forms
could be built.

-Mark


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: On press releases and boasting

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
>
>> Sj wrote:
>>
>>> Yes; I like Erik's idea of doing this once a sizeable number of
>>> articles (1000?)
>>> have passed through this system in at least one language.  At the
>>> same time, we should commission a similar content comparison for en:...
>>
>>
>> What I'd *really* like is details on the quality review de: apparently
>> went through to get de: to such a state, and whether we can just do that
>> for en: as well. On the principle that we undeniably have lots of good
>> stuff, but hitting 'Random page' twenty times shows up our defects
>> glaringly.
>
>
> It would be interesting to see an analysis of the English articles
> that correspond to the ones, substituting only for the ones where the
> subject would be culturally meaningless for an English speaking
> audience.  Encyclopedia Britannica could also replace Brockhaus.  This
> would ensure that our own comparisons were based on a somewhat
> objective article selection..
>
> "Commissioning" such a study would make it difficult to defend that
> the study was impartial.  A truly independent study must come from an
> impartial outside source that has full control over its article
> selection.  It would be interesting to see what a group like "Consumer
> Reports" would do with this.
>
> There is one futher observation from Lothar's list.  He noted that the
> study pointed out that we did not have an article for the medical term
> "Fontanelle".  This deficiency was quickly remedied, and I am sure
> that the other deficiencies will also be reviewed.  It would be
> interesting to review the same articles after 60 days.  That would
> measure the capacity of each encyclopedia to quickly repair its
> shortcomings when thay have been pointed out.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] pi-eyed

body:
When at Wikisources [[Pi to 1,000,000 places]] an anonymous user changes
the first 10 digits of line 14320 from "0628419546" to "1516171819" how
is anyone possible able to know which is correct? :-) :'(

Ec


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: [crromero-C/uLu2TJQyTQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org:
	Wikipedia]

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> Our article is apparently a stub.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Slim_Helu
>
> I'm not sure how much the attached hagiography helps, but still,
> perhaps the article could be improved?
>

I've incorporated most of it. Some of it was statements of opinion, so I
didn't add this. I also think the info on Grupo Carso should most likely
be added into a new [[Grupo Carso]] article.

TBSDY


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
I tried to enforce simplicity but they all got mad. They just keep adding
and adding.

Fred

> From: Delirium <delirium at hackish.org>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:28:34 -0400
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Requests for arbitration refactoring
>
> Rebecca wrote:
>
>> Perhaps if you make a unilateral change, and find numerous people
>> disagreeing with it, and no one who backs you up, then it might
>> suggest that the move wasn't wise to make in the first place.
>>
>> And IIRC, it was Raul who remerged the page.
>>
>>
> Well, I certainly agree with The Cunctator's change to the page, and I'm
> baffled as to how it got to the point where he had to fix it in the
> first place.  The original instructions were to add material to subpages
> only, but people kept adding stuff to the main arbitration page anyway
> for some reason.
>
> -Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Zoney

body:
: "Of course we currently already create "misspellings" redirects
(manually)"

Do we? I don't see why. Having such a redirect suggests that at some
point it will be used. That means a link with the wrong spelling. Now
I don't know about the rest of you, but I would much rather see a red
link than a blue one on a misspelling! Anyone using preview is more
likely to be alerted to the misspelling, not to mention the reader or
another editor if the misspelling is saved! (Yes, I realise people
should be using spellcheckers, but they probably aren't!)

Anyways, I think misspelt words should not be catered for!

Zoney

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:46:01 +0800, ruimu uestc <ruimu at uestc.edu.cn> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jens Ropers" <ropers at ropersonline.com>
> >
> >  BugZillify this as a Feature Request.
>
> I also love playing with languages but I sometime feel like I'm not that
> welcomed to understand some of the writings in this list. I'm very sad to
> only be French (and to blindly use split infinitive :) but I wished I had
> enough boldness to ask writers to stay in certain limits of
> understandability (<-- I know this word is horrific, but it's easy to
> understand for most readers, isn't it ?)
>
> Note that this comment isn't directly adressed to Jens but to all the
> contributors. Wikipedia isn't only written by native geeks swimming everyday
> in their slangy localized bath, my dear friends !
>
> (gbog)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
*~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


references:
<BD9AD3E6.2C3BF%cunctator@kband.com>	<BD9AD9F7.2C3C3%cunctator@kband.com>
	<5309126704101920234db9c9d0@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Rebecca wrote:

>Perhaps if you make a unilateral change, and find numerous people
>disagreeing with it, and no one who backs you up, then it might
>suggest that the move wasn't wise to make in the first place.
>
>And IIRC, it was Raul who remerged the page.
>
>
Well, I certainly agree with The Cunctator's change to the page, and I'm
baffled as to how it got to the point where he had to fix it in the
first place.  The original instructions were to add material to subpages
only, but people kept adding stuff to the main arbitration page anyway
for some reason.

-Mark


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mediawiki evaluation

references:
<cl2900$c2$1@sea.gmane.org> <9JCId8rSpVB@erik_moeller>
	<cl6288$2fr$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:18 -0400, Jonah Bossewitch
<mrenoch at phantomcynthetics.com> wrote:

> Still there will be text areas on your site, outside of your wiki where
> you might want to accept wiki syntax.  Does mediawiki have an api that
> lets you easily use its parser?

I suspect that this could be very difficult with the current state of
MediaWiki - the "parser", such as it is, is highly coupled with the
database representation on the one hand (through code like Title.php)
and the output system (Skin.php) on the other. As yet, there's no real
parser that can produce an intermediate representation of content
rather than a whole wiki-page.

Thinking laterally, though, I guess you could create a "skin" that
outputted an HTML fragment, rather than a fully layed-out page, and
then include the output of that in another part of your site.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Evan Prodromou

body:
On Wed, 2004-20-10 at 23:00 +0100, Pete/Pcb21 wrote:

> Allan's solution - disallow overwriting of images - would solve the
> problem completely, be trivial to implement (we already check for
> pre-existing pictures of the same filename), and has only the minor
> drawback of perhaps using a bit of extra disc space now and then.

One benefit of being allowed to overwrite files is that correcting an
image will update that image in all articles that use it, automatically.

Perhaps Allan's real solution was hidden in his proposal. He said,
"It's something vandals can use to alter articles without affecting the
watchlist;". I'd suggest that we modify the watchlist feature to add a
watchlist entry when an image that a page uses is changed.

This way, rather than taking features away from good users to punish bad
ones, we enhance everyone's ability to monitor changes.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Hateful ban shows that Wikipedia is flawed almost
	beyond hope

body:
Sheldon Rampton wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>>  Yes, this was a bizarre suggestion.  Perhaps the next suggested remedy
>>  will require financial donations in reparation, before restoring a
>>  long-time user's editing privileges.
>
>
> Actually, the idea of requiring financial donations shouldn't be
> dismissed out of hand. A system of micropayments could conceivably
> function as a deterrent to trolls and vandals.
>
> Let's suppose, just hypothetically, that Wikipedia had a system whereby
> people who engage in trolling or make lots of controversial edits could
> be required to pay the Wikimedia Foundation 5 cents for every edit they
> make. (Maybe there could even be a cash *incentive* so that people who
> have earned a reputation for good editing would *earn* small amounts of
> money for their edits.)
>
> This is just a rudimentary sketch of how something like this might be
> implemented. To make it work, there would have to be a significantly
> different system of user IDs than currently exists, and someone would
> have to work out a way of preventing people from gaming the system.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> --Sheldon Rampton

Terrible idea. They pay a donation and then think this gives them
permission to do what they like on the 'pedia. I cannot agree with this
idea.

TBSDY


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] pi-eyed

body:
It's not impossible to check...

--node

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:15:41 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> When at Wikisources [[Pi to 1,000,000 places]] an anonymous user changes
> the first 10 digits of line 14320 from "0628419546" to "1516171819" how
> is anyone possible able to know which is correct? :-) :'(
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] pi-eyed

body:
I should add that "1516171819" seems more like vandalism to me - 15,
16, 17, 18, 19, a very suspicious pattern.

--node

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:11:57 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's not impossible to check...
>
> --node
>
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:15:41 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> > When at Wikisources [[Pi to 1,000,000 places]] an anonymous user changes
> > the first 10 digits of line 14320 from "0628419546" to "1516171819" how
> > is anyone possible able to know which is correct? :-) :'(
> >
> > Ec
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


from_name: ruimu uestc

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jens Ropers" <ropers at ropersonline.com>
>
>  BugZillify this as a Feature Request.

I also love playing with languages but I sometime feel like I'm not that
welcomed to understand some of the writings in this list. I'm very sad to
only be French (and to blindly use split infinitive :) but I wished I had
enough boldness to ask writers to stay in certain limits of
understandability (<-- I know this word is horrific, but it's easy to
understand for most readers, isn't it ?)

Note that this comment isn't directly adressed to Jens but to all the
contributors. Wikipedia isn't only written by native geeks swimming everyday
in their slangy localized bath, my dear friends !

(gbog)


subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost

body:
Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:

>> Have you thought of trademarking the term "Wikipedia" ?
>>
>
> Yes, but the french associatino must be first created.
> The creation is foreseen ni one or two weeks.

I thought the plan was to have the main Wikimedia Foundation hold all
trademarks, worldwide, rather than local associations holding them?  If
I understand correctly, EU trademark law allows a single trademark to be
valid across the EU, and the Foundation was planning on applying for
such an EU-wide registration.  Has this changed?

-Mark


subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Canada and Massachusetts sites noticing
	wikibooks/versity

body:
Thanks, Ec. Quick thinking indeed. :)

-- ambi

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:06:36 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
> > Sj wrote:
> >
> >> And does anyone know these Canadian IT Traning people?  They
> >> apparently just started setting up a site, but half of their links are
> >> to Wikimedia projects... and they're obviously waiting for a
> >> wikiversity site to be set up (check their one "Press Release").
> >>  http://www.canadianittraining.com/Main.htm
> >>
> > I'm trying to make sense of this.
> >
> > I'm naturally suspicious of this.  They have too many domain names
> > which appeared when I looked more closely at the contact information.
> > They also have canadianitoverseas.com and
> > educationbeyondboundaries.com which link back to the same website.
> >
> > The phone number for the CEO is listed as belonging to one W. Jolly of
> > Richmond Hill, Ont.  The other phone number appears to be unlisted.
> >
> > I also followed through the link to their Nova Scotia based Web design
> > provider.  That gave me another site of theirs at
> > http://www.cittilearningsystems.com/  That, at least, has a more
> > substantial page about the courses that they offer, mostly IT and
> > business related but with none of the courses being described beyond
> > having a title.  Evolution Learning of Halifax
> > http://www.evolutionlearning.com/# also seems to be theirs.  The lack
> > of any personal names to all this is an alert to me.
> >
> > I suspect something like Vancouver University International that was
> > dicscussed not long ago.  They may be trying to piggyback on
> > Wikiversity to build credibility for themselves!!! :-D   So far their
> > track record is too slim to be meaningful.
>
> Further to the above I have pre-emptively registered the domain
> wikiversity.ca
>
>
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Pete/Pcb21 wrote:

> Allan's solution - disallow overwriting of images - would solve the
> problem completely, be trivial to implement (we already check for
> pre-existing pictures of the same filename), and has only the minor
> drawback of perhaps using a bit of extra disc space now and then.

I don't like this solution at all---overwriting images is frequently
used to upload revisions of images while leaving a revision history.
For example, maps may be edited, darkened/lightened, or otherwise
tweaked, and it's useful to have the revision history available, or to
be able to roll back to a previous revision.

If there's a problem with a particular image, we could instead use
protection of images analogous to the protection on pages, rather than
throwing the whole revision system out.

-Mark


from_name: Charles Matthews

body:
In the course of less than an hour I have come across one speedy delete
notice, two Wiktionary move notices, and a VfD notice, all attached to new
short mathematics pages.  All of which would properly be labelled stubs.

The Wikipedians responsible don't have specialist knowledge - they seem to
feel that remedies for stubs other than stub notices should exist (and in
one case, thinks that if it looks like a typographjc mess, it must be
nonsense).

As far as I'm concerned, Wikipedia still needs stubs to grow, precisely in
areas where it is currently weak.

Charles


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mediawiki evaluation

references:
<cl2900$c2$1@sea.gmane.org> <cl2gag$ert$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20041019193709.GD982@jeluf.mine.nu>

body:
Jens Frank wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 05:38:55PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
>
>>Jonah Bossewitch wrote:
>>
>>>Hi everyone,
>>>
>>
>>>Is there a systematic move towards phpTAL, or is it just being used in one
>>>skin?
>>
>>Just one skin.
>>
>
> There are at least two other PHPTal based skins in CVS HEAD, Amethyst and
> Chick.
>
> 	Regards,
>
> 		JeLuF

Hello,

Amethyst is just a hack of monobook using a dark css. We probably want
to enhance the skin system to have one layout declined in several color
themes.

Aka:
  Monobook
   \--> default (white / light blue colours)
   \--> amethyst (black / purple)
   \--> sand (yellow, brown)

  Chick (wich is intended for pda)
   \--> default (white)
   \--> battery (black)
   \--> nokia

Then we can have users choose a layout (monobook / chick) and then a
color schema to apply.

Actually not coded, just an idea.

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mediawiki evaluation

references:
<cl2900$c2$1@sea.gmane.org> <cl2gag$ert$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20041019193709.GD982@jeluf.mine.nu> <cl6hhm$l2n$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:24:22 +0200, Ashar Voultoiz <hashar at altern.org> wrote:
> Amethyst is just a hack of monobook using a dark css. We probably want
> to enhance the skin system to have one layout declined in several color
> themes.

Actually, although there isn't a 2-stage UI for selecting them like
you propose, as far as I understand the current skin system, you very
much can have two skins which differ only in their CSS: skins based on
SkinPHPTal simply define where their template is, and where their
styles are. You could very easily name these to make the associations
clear (e.g. "Chick (light)", "Chick (dark)", "Chick (nokia)").

Last time I looked, there was a template called "Amethyst.pt" which
appeared to be just an out of date version of "MonoBook.pt", as was
"WikimediaWiki.pt"; if there is no immediate plan to make these
distinct, they should be deleted and the relevant .php files told to
use MonoBook.pt instead. As in:

class SkinAmethyst extends SkinPHPTal {
    function initPage( &$out ) {
        SkinPHPTal::initPage( $out );
        $this->skinname  = 'amethyst';
        $this->stylename = 'amethyst';
-       $this->template  = 'Amethyst';  #reference to unnecessary copy
+      $this->template = 'MonoBook'; #reference to same template
    }
}

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Polytarp!

subject: [WikiEN-l] Caching issues

body:
That's it.

Your message, Kerlock, is the straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm unsubscribing from this nonsense list.

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:45:41 +1000, csherlock at ljh.com.au
<csherlock at ljh.com.au> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I find that I'm updating articles and the changes are not always being
> reflected straight away. Has anyone else been having this problem?
>
> TBSDY
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
 >p.s. Separately, my wife called me while I was driving home, and she
 >had looked at the article on her computer, and in her case she saw the
 >goatse.cx image there.  this was not a caching issue nor was it the
 >same issue at all, but just routine vandalism.  I am more convinced
 >than ever now that we need a "soft protect" mode of "slow publishing"
 >for certain very very popular and very very important articles.

Adding this extra layer of tweakability between "not protected" and
"protected" might be useful, however it is not the solution to the
problem you describe - even if an article is fully protected a clever
vandal can still upload trash to replace an image that appears on a
protected page.

Allan's solution - disallow overwriting of images - would solve the
problem completely, be trivial to implement (we already check for
pre-existing pictures of the same filename), and has only the minor
drawback of perhaps using a bit of extra disc space now and then.

I urge that it be implemented as soon as is practicable)

Pete

(Sidenote: "Clever vandals" who can figure out how to pull this trick
are more dangerous than stupid vandals. They are thus rightly normally
given very short latitude before banning, although with proxy ips
abounding we still need the technical solution outlined above).


from_name: Robin Shannon

body:
The Spanish Translation of the Week
[[wikipedia:Spanish_Translation_of_the_Week]] has been launched, with
the aim of collaboratively translating feature article quality
articles from the spanish wikipedia into the english wikipedia it is
hoped that this effort will help spark more collaborative translation
efforts.


from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pi-eyed

body:
On Oct 21, 2004, at 12:01 AM, Angela wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:10:30 +1000, Tim Starling
> <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I just thought I should add that the need to constantly clean up
>> vandalism on pi pages is a waste of time. You should just protect the
>> page or delete it.
>
> The same was true of the list of prime numbers when it included 10,000
> numbers.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
> title=List_of_prime_numbers&diff=2275927&oldid=2275912
>
> but there was no consensus to delete it
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_prime_numbers#From_VfD
>
> If such pages would need permanent protection, it only proves they are
> not suitable for a wiki, where pages are supposed to be edited.
>

On the contrary, it is merely that "neutral point of view" on such
pages has a much narrower definition than on most pages.


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: French domain lost

body:
Anthere wrote:

>I think that in this case, Foundation holding the US trademark and
>european one will be sufficient.
>Jimbo just told me that the US one was approved and the other underway.
>
>
For clarification, I believe the current situation is that we have
submitted the application to register Wikipedia as a trademark in the
US. The application was filed last month, but I don't believe it is
approved yet, as it still needs to be reviewed by the Patent and
Trademark Office and published to see if anyone objects to registration.
Actual registration can take up to a year or longer. We certainly
consider Wikipedia a trademark, whether registered or not, but I
recommend that people be careful not to claim that it is registered at
this point.

Once we have the initial registration in place, this should help us
expedite other registrations that may be necessary, such as the EU.
Based on international agreements, I believe that once the trademark is
recognized, additional registrations can be backdated to the earliest
registration date.

As far as I know, trademark registration is not necessary in order to
register domain names anywhere. However, it may be helpful in recovering
squatted domain names.

--Michael Snow


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: French domain lost


from_name: Jens Ropers

body:
These "misspelt REDIRECTs" typically are NOT ever used in articles (if
they are in any article, they'll get corrected sooner than later). The
merit of having "misspelt REDIRECTs" in the  first place is purely to
cater for users who type in just that (common) misspelling into the
search box or the address bar of their browser. Not that I'm really
advocating "misspelt REDIRECTs". They're a "pain in the funky" **
stopgap measure. A proper fuzzy logic misspellings box ("Did you
mean...") would be a gazillion times better. As the MacUser reviewer
observed: If Google can do it, why can't encyclopedias do the same?

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

** 	Since I was just admonished over my use of "exclusive" lingo:
	"Pain in the funky" is (creative) [[Rhyming slang]].
	"Funky" rhymes with "donkey" and "donkey" equals "ass".

On 20 Oct 2004, at 18:03, Zoney wrote:

> : "Of course we currently already create "misspellings" redirects
> (manually)"
>
> Do we? I don't see why. Having such a redirect suggests that at some
> point it will be used. That means a link with the wrong spelling. Now
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I would much rather see a red
> link than a blue one on a misspelling! Anyone using preview is more
> likely to be alerted to the misspelling, not to mention the reader or
> another editor if the misspelling is saved! (Yes, I realise people
> should be using spellcheckers, but they probably aren't!)
>
> Anyways, I think misspelt words should not be catered for!
>
> Zoney
>
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:46:01 +0800, ruimu uestc <ruimu at uestc.edu.cn>
> wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jens Ropers" <ropers at ropersonline.com>
>>>
>>>  BugZillify this as a Feature Request.
>>
>> I also love playing with languages but I sometime feel like I'm not
>> that
>> welcomed to understand some of the writings in this list. I'm very
>> sad to
>> only be French (and to blindly use split infinitive :) but I wished I
>> had
>> enough boldness to ask writers to stay in certain limits of
>> understandability (<-- I know this word is horrific, but it's easy to
>> understand for most readers, isn't it ?)
>>
>> Note that this comment isn't directly adressed to Jens but to all the
>> contributors. Wikipedia isn't only written by native geeks swimming
>> everyday
>> in their slangy localized bath, my dear friends !
>>
>> (gbog)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
> --
> *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On 20 Oct 2004, at 21:51, Mark Richards wrote:

> Common misspellings should be created as redirect
> links.
> Mrak
   ^^-- Is that a common misspelling now? Must. Create. Redirect. ;-P


from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost

body:
NSK wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 October 2004 07:58, Anthere wrote:
>
>>For now, the wikipedia.fr is not redirected anywhere.
>
>
> Have you thought of trademarking the term "Wikipedia" ?
>

Yes, but the french associatino must be first created.
The creation is foreseen ni one or two weeks.

-- Looxix


subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost


from_name: NSK

subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost

body:
On Wednesday 20 October 2004 07:58, Anthere wrote:
> For now, the wikipedia.fr is not redirected anywhere.

Have you thought of trademarking the term "Wikipedia" ?

--
NSK
Admin of http://portal.wikinerds.org
Project Manager of http://www.nerdypc.org
Project Manager of http://www.adapedia.org
Project Manager of http://maatworks.wikinerds.org


subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pi-eyed

body:
Tim Starling wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>> When at Wikisources [[Pi to 1,000,000 places]] an anonymous user
>> changes the first 10 digits of line 14320 from "0628419546" to
>> "1516171819" how is anyone possible able to know which is correct?
>> :-) :'(
>
> The obvious thing to do would be to revert it. The chances that the
> anonymous user knew pi to 1,000,000 decimal places and noticed the
> error are pretty small. The regularity of the sequence "1516171819"
> should be a giveaway, just like the sequence inserted in the same edit
> on the previous line "1234567890".
>
> That said, a google search turned up a site apparently made for
> precisely this problem:
>
> http://www.angio.net/pi/bigpi.cgi?UsrQuery=6014280388
>
> Not that it matters, you only need tens of digits to solve any
> conceivable physical problem. What a waste of disk space.

Thanks to all of you who responded on this.  The only useful value for
the the article that comes to mind is as a convenient long list of
pseudo-random numbers when somebody needs one.  Beyond that, the love
that some people have for this sort of thing gives a fantastic insight
into their characters.

Thanks for catching the sequence; I should have noticed it myself.

I've reverted the vandalism and protected the page.  That seemed the
simpler option.  I didn't really want to get into a fight about deleting
this; I get enough fights already.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pi-eyed

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

> Angela wrote:
>
>> If such pages would need permanent protection, it only proves they are
>> not suitable for a wiki, where pages are supposed to be edited.
>
> The point seems to be that pi is *not* supposed to be edited. An
> article *about* pi is. Wikisource should make it easy to add a data
> page, but then keep it stable, IMHO.

Agreed.  I tend to look at Wikisource as a place where material is
relatively much less editable than onWikipedia,  but not completely
uneditable.  This mostly works.  But that could be because some of the
texts are so long that they discourage editing.  There are features that
I would love to have that would make translations and annotations more
convenient, but I can be patient in waiting for them. 8-)

Ec


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: French domain lost

body:
NSK a ?crit:
> On Thursday 21 October 2004 02:48, Delirium wrote:
>
>>I thought the plan was to have the main Wikimedia Foundation hold all
>>trademarks, worldwide, rather than local associations holding them?
>
>
> If local associations hold trademarks they will be able to declare their
> independence from the Foundation and continue using the name "Wikipedia" in
> their jurisdictions.
>
> The choice of who will hold the trademarks will be made by considering how
> much freedom/independence you want to grant to local associations and what
> the law states.
>

I think that in this case, Foundation holding the US trademark and
european one will be sufficient.
Jimbo just told me that the US one was approved and the other underway.

What the Foundation can not register for, is a french domain (in .fr)
This may only be done by a french organisation or firm.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: French domain lost


subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost

body:
On Thursday 21 October 2004 02:48, Delirium wrote:
> I thought the plan was to have the main Wikimedia Foundation hold all
> trademarks, worldwide, rather than local associations holding them?

If local associations hold trademarks they will be able to declare their
independence from the Foundation and continue using the name "Wikipedia" in
their jurisdictions.

The choice of who will hold the trademarks will be made by considering how
much freedom/independence you want to grant to local associations and what
the law states.

--
NSK
Admin of http://portal.wikinerds.org
Project Manager of http://www.nerdypc.org
Project Manager of http://www.adapedia.org
Project Manager of http://maatworks.wikinerds.org


subject: [Foundation-l] French domain lost


from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pi-eyed

body:
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:10:30 +1000, Tim Starling
<ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I just thought I should add that the need to constantly clean up
> vandalism on pi pages is a waste of time. You should just protect the
> page or delete it.

The same was true of the list of prime numbers when it included 10,000 numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=List_of_prime_numbers&diff=2275927&oldid=2275912

but there was no consensus to delete it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_prime_numbers#From_VfD

If such pages would need permanent protection, it only proves they are
not suitable for a wiki, where pages are supposed to be edited.

Angela.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] pi-eyed

body:
On Thursday 21 October 2004 02:15, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> When at Wikisources [[Pi to 1,000,000 places]] an anonymous user changes
> the first 10 digits of line 14320 from "0628419546" to "1516171819" how
> is anyone possible able to know which is correct? :-) :'(

SuperPi?

--
NSK
Admin of http://portal.wikinerds.org
Project Manager of http://www.nerdypc.org
Project Manager of http://www.adapedia.org
Project Manager of http://maatworks.wikinerds.org


from_name: Victor Fariña

subject: [Wikitech-l] Users and groups based security

body:
Hello ...
I am wondering if there are any plans or discussions about enhanced
the security of the wiki in a user/groups based, for example to let an
editor protect his pages from view/modify other users that the ones he
designate (with a special tag or something) ... I think that this is a
feature not very useful at wikipedia sites, but yes on my wikis used
mainly for projects development .

thanks, regards

--
Problems with Windows - Reboot.
Problems with Linux   - Be root.

Vic (aKa CoffMan)
vic at wickle.com
wickle at gmail.com


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Inserting wikicommons medias in wikipedia

body:
Brion-
> On Oct 16, 2004, at 2:19 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote:
>> Is it possible to insert medias from wikicommons in a wikipedia
>> article.

> No, except insofar as you can use direct URLs.

>> If yes, how ?
>> If no, where is the problem ?

> It hasn't been coded yet. Erik, are you still interested in commons?

Yes. I have just checked in code that allows specifying a shared upload
directory, and using images from there just like local ones. MediaWiki
will first check if a local copy exists and if not, it will look in the
shared directory.

What is the release plan for 1.4 - is it worth backporting this to
REL1_3A?

The major missing feature right now is the ability to upload to the shared
directory from other wikis, e.g. to directly upload to the Wikimedia
Commons from the English Wikipedia. This is not as easy as it sounds as
these uploads have to be written into the database of the other wiki as
well as the local one. I'm going to wait until the single login transition
before coding this, because otherwise we'll have to do silly cross-wiki
authentication tricks.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Multiple image versions - why bother?

body:
Allan-
> Hi,

> Someone on IRC, I forget who, suggested that we should end this ability
> to upload new revisions of images. I agree.

Absolutely not. Images should be treated like regular wiki pages,
otherwise we will give up much of the collaboration potential that is
there. For example, it is quite feasible to create an interface for
loading an image into an external application and uploading it
transparently back to the server:
http://www.zope.org/Members/Caseman/ExternalEditor

The process will be like this:

1) You load a page like [[Image:Diagram.svg]]
2) Below the page there will be an "edit this image in an external
application" link
3) After clicking this link, the server sends you a file with a MIME type
associated with a helper application
4) The helper application loads the file into an image editor like
Freehand or Inkscape
5) You make changes to the image, save it, close the application
6) The helper application asks you for an edit comment and gives you a
last chance to abort the edit
7) If you do not, the new image is uploaded to the server. (Optionally,
the helper application could tell your browser to load the post-upload
URL.)

Now, with an image history working like a page history, that process is
fairly obvious and transparent. An image can easily have 50 different
revisions without you having to track down the filename of each of them.

Question: Is there some library we could use to show the differences
between two bitmap images?

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Charging per edit (was Re: Hateful ban shows that
 Wikipedia is flawed almost beyond hope)

body:
Fred Bauder stated for the record:

> I don't know if this idea will ever be used. But I can imagine some
> circumstance might exist. For example sockpuppets from Microsoft could be
> restrained in this way should they try to edit.
>
> Fred
>
>
>>From: Sheldon Rampton <sheldon at prwatch.org>
>>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:01:39 -0700
>>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hateful ban shows that Wikipedia is flawed almost
>>beyond hope
>>
>>TBSDY wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Terrible idea. They pay a donation and then think this gives them
>>>permission to do what they like on the 'pedia. I cannot agree with this
>>>idea.
>>
>>That wasn't my idea at all. What I described was a system whereby
>>problematic posters would be required to pay a small amount of money
>>for every edit they make. Right now they ALREADY have "permission to
>>do what they like on the 'pedia," for free. My payment system idea
>>isn't something I'm proposing IN PLACE OF existing mechanisms for
>>arbiting and restricting vandalism. It would be something IN ADDITION
>>TO.
>>
>>--Sheldon Rampton

Sockpuppets, from Microsoft or any other large corporation, would love
this plan.  Microsoft buys entire governments -- we're not going to slow
them down by charging them money.  At a US$1000 per edit, they could
make a tens of thousands of edits before the expense would show up in
their bottom line.  (See [[milliard]].)

--
  Sean Barrett     | The politician was gone but unnoticed, like
  sean at epoptic.com | the period after the Dr on a Dr Pepper can.


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Support for shared image upload directory

body:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 05:04:17AM +0000, Erik Moeller wrote:

> Note: I changed
>                 $text = $this->replaceInternalLinks ( $text );
>                 $text = $this->replaceExternalLinks( $text );
> to
>                 $text = $this->replaceExternalLinks( $text );
>                 $text = $this->replaceInternalLinks ( $text );
>
> in Parser.php. Otherwise [[Media:Bla.jpg]] to an absolute URL would be
> incorrectly parsed as external links. The header of
> replaceExternalLinks says:
>
>         Note: we have to do external links before the internal ones
>
> So the old order was not consistent with the documentation. I did some
> tests and nothing seems to be broken, but I have some problems executing
> parserTests.php so I couldn't test it systematically.

The swap of replaceExternalLinks and replaceInternalLinks was done to
handle URLs in thumbnail captions, like in

[[Image:TeX lion.png|thumb|right|100px|The [[TeX]] [[lion]]. http://www.ctan.org/]]

Whoever did it probably forgot to update the comments...

Regards,

	JeLuF


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Hateful ban shows that Wikipedia is flawed
	almost beyond hope

body:
I don't know if this idea will ever be used. But I can imagine some
circumstance might exist. For example sockpuppets from Microsoft could be
restrained in this way should they try to edit.

Fred

> From: Sheldon Rampton <sheldon at prwatch.org>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:01:39 -0700
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hateful ban shows that Wikipedia is flawed almost
> beyond hope
>
> TBSDY wrote:
>
>> Terrible idea. They pay a donation and then think this gives them
>> permission to do what they like on the 'pedia. I cannot agree with this
>> idea.
>
> That wasn't my idea at all. What I described was a system whereby
> problematic posters would be required to pay a small amount of money
> for every edit they make. Right now they ALREADY have "permission to
> do what they like on the 'pedia," for free. My payment system idea
> isn't something I'm proposing IN PLACE OF existing mechanisms for
> arbiting and restricting vandalism. It would be something IN ADDITION
> TO.
>
> --Sheldon Rampton
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

body:
TBSDY wrote:

>Terrible idea. They pay a donation and then think this gives them
>permission to do what they like on the 'pedia. I cannot agree with this
>idea.

That wasn't my idea at all. What I described was a system whereby
problematic posters would be required to pay a small amount of money
for every edit they make. Right now they ALREADY have "permission to
do what they like on the 'pedia," for free. My payment system idea
isn't something I'm proposing IN PLACE OF existing mechanisms for
arbiting and restricting vandalism. It would be something IN ADDITION
TO.

--Sheldon Rampton


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pi-eyed

body:
Angela wrote:

>If such pages would need permanent protection, it only proves they are
>not suitable for a wiki, where pages are supposed to be edited.
>
>
>
The point seems to be that pi is *not* supposed to be edited. An article
*about* pi is. Wikisource should make it easy to add a data page, but
then keep it stable, IMHO.

Magnus