body:
geni wrote:
> On 11/22/06, Peter Jacobi <peter_jacobi at gmx.net> wrote:
<snip>
>> They have very professional looking websites but no news coverage
>> and a product which I'd consider to be complete crap:
>>
>> Using a car's on board generator producing electricity to hydrolyse
>>  water to oxygen and hydrogen which then are fed back into the
>> car's motor to be burned there...
>>
>> Having a nice article on Wikipedia, even for short time, may make a
>> big difference for them.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>
> In this case probably not because they have already had mainstream
> media coverage. It is likely that it will happen in future though.
>

For some inexplicable reason the media tend to stay away from perpetual
motion machines, even though they go for all the other pseudoscience.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] contents under education/information licenses

body:
On 11/21/06, David Monniaux <David.Monniaux at free.fr> wrote:
> Note that, in the US, NASA, whose photographs are in the public domain,
> is protected from abusive by specific US laws prohibiting misuse of some
> symbols of the US government, including the NASA logo (the same applies
> for e.g. military insignia). The photo may well be termed "public
> domain", but they can actually prosecute you if you use it in an
> advertisement.
>
> Note also that the Wikimedia Foundation also copyrights its logos in
> order to prevent abuse. We should not be hypocrites and deny to others
> what we do for the same purpose (especially since the Foundation grants
> individual authorizations, not a blanket "for education or information").

I'm increasingly convinced that the free culture movement needs to
come up with a coherent view on logos and trademarks. This is
currently a problem across the spectrum of free content and open
source projects, and Wikimedia is no exception: we allow our own logos
to be hosted on Wikimedia Commons as a matter of convenience, yet, any
other organization would have to make their logos entirely "free
content" in order for them to be considered "commons compatible".

Also compare the schizophrenic dispute between Mozilla and Debian (a
GNU/Linux distribution), which resulted in Debian changing the name of
Firefox to "Iceweasel" to avoid trademark and logo issues. It's very
unfortunate that two organizations that share similar ideologies spend
time and resources fighting over banalities.

For logos and trademarks, whether they are standing alone or part of a
larger image, I can certainly agree that rules prohibiting use of the
logo or derivatives thereof to identify a derivative work or a
different product without permission, or "passing off" of any kind,
may be acceptable. The logo could still be freely copied and used in
the context of commentary, artistic works, etc.

Then, if we have such a standard of freedom for logos, it may become
easier to persuade organizations like ESA to release their content
under a free license, provided that any logo portions of the images
are clearly labeled to be protected as described above. It may also
inspire other organizations.

If nobody in our community is willing to take leadership on this
issue, I think it might be a good idea to organize a virtual summit
with leaders of the free culture community specifically about the
logo/trademark issue. The current situation is unsustainable. We need
to figure out where to draw the line between freedom and protection of
identity. If our own position makes sense, it becomes much easier to
convince others of our values.

That said, I absolutely do not support content in Commons that is
restricted to educational use. It's poor strategic thinking. Even
today, Wikimedia is already quite influential. As our quality
assurance processes improve and our credibility increases, not to
mention our relentless international growth, Wikimedia will become
_the_ global institution of free knowledge. We should not compromise
to get a little more content now, which is then unlikely to ever be
more freely licensed. Rather, we should be steadfast in our position,
and wait until the rest of the world catches up with us. That might
take a decade or two, but it will be worth the wait.

As for the argument that we do allow fair use -- we do indeed. But as
I always emphasize, fair use is not on equal footing with freely
licensed content. It can be removed almost at will, or replaced with
more freely licensed content of lower quality. A rationale is required
for its invocation, and many projects now have whitelists of allowable
fair use cases.

As for the argument that this is US-centric, of course it is. Our
primary servers are hosted in Florida. US law is therefore our first
point of reference, for any given project.

Apologies if these points have been made before -- the thread has
become too long for me to process in full.
--
Peace & Love,
Erik

Member, Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees

DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise stated, all views or opinions expressed
in this message are solely my own and do not represent an official
position of the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikien-l

from_name: Anthony

subject: [WikiEN-l] Google Earth screenshots

body:
On 11/23/06, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/23/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> > Note that some of the images claim "PD".
>
> In that case the uploaders need a stern talking to. It's hard to
> imagine that people don't realise that imagery from Google Earth is
> copyrighted when it's plastered all over the bottom of the screen, and
> appears in the screenshots.
>
Just because something claims to be copyrighted doesn't mean it is.

Much of Google Earth imagery *is* public domain.  Google has not added
the necessary creativity to change this.

That said, it's much safer to just use NASA Worldwind.

Anthony


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [17860]
	trunk/phase3/languages/messages/MessagesEn.php

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Edward Z. Yang wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> I suspect we could have an extension-like interface for overriding the
>> generic default messages with some site-specific defaults. That
>> _probably_ would even work with the present extension interface.
>
>> If we're clever, we could also make something editable, probably, with
>> appropriate shared caching.
>
>> (Attention: clever people! Try your hand and become famous. :)
>
> I'd like to ask for clarification, then.  Is the issue about
> actual messages floating around that shouldn't be there for external
> wikis?  Or simply the fact that if the language file was made totally
> install neutral, there'd have to be a lot of work to get the messages
> in-line with Wikimedia's policies (an in-house tool)?

Right.

>  Are we talking
> about a mass MediaWiki message editing tool?

Sure, why not?

> Brion, the signature attached to that last posting wasn't valid.

Enigmail+GPG says it is.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: commons-l

from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [Commons-l] Category:User scripts

body:
Cool Cat wrote:
> I am a Script-1, where am I supposed to put that? Monobook? That
> script should also create a default summary for the delete window
> assuming I decide to delete. It should remove delete template if I
> decide to keep. (delete/keep combo box perhaps with excuse field as a
> text box)
>

It doesn't handle deletions; it only works on a COM:DEL subpage. Check
out my monbook.js to see how I'm calling it.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
James Hare wrote:
> On 11/22/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Puppy wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> *GENDER BIAS IN STUDENT/TEACHER INTERACTIONS*
>>>
>> Obviously you're not aware of the problems surrounding males in
>> education then, and how they're falling seriously behind their female
>> peers.
>>
>
> Personally, I am not a big fan of statistics or labelling. But tell
> me more about this females soaring above the males in education.
>

http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/school_education/policy_initiatives_reviews/key_issues/boys_education/
http://www.cis.org.au/Education/education.htm
http://www.aeufederal.org.au/Debates/index2.html

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Google Earth screenshots

body:
On 11/23/06, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/23/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> > What should we do with the screenshots taken from Google Earth?
> > I see that more and more of them are uploaded on en.wiki, for example
> > to illustrate things such as high-schools or cities. But, does the
> > fair-use claim hold up?
>
> Delete them all. Unless they're used in [[Google Earth]] to
> demonstrate how the program looks, there's simply no valid reason to
> include them when:
>
> a) free alternatives are almost always available via WorldWind
> (especially for the US)

For the UK there is a datated but free high quality alternative for
anyone who is prepared to do a search through the national monuments
record archive.

--
geni


from_name: oscar

subject: [Foundation-l] Corporate contacts

body:
of course i am willing to share, but the whole point with *high level
contacts* is that they in general go through a personal connection which
should not be bypassed in the first instance.
pursuing this kind of contacts must generally begin with concretely
involving the people with these contacts in my experience.
(the above is not stating anything contrary, but rather complementary)

best,
oscar

On 11/23/06, Erik Moeller <erik at wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> The Board and Executive Director are compiling a database of
> high-level corporate contacts for various uses, such as fundraising.
> If you have high-level contacts with major corporations which you are
> willing to share, or make introductions to, please send an e-mail to
> me or Anthere ASAP. Thank you very much.
> --
> Peace & Love,
> Erik
>
> Member, Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees
>
> DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise stated, all views or opinions expressed
> in this message are solely my own and do not represent an official
> position of the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Corporate contacts


subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
Puppy wrote:
> Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
>> Puppy wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> This is not to say that improving and expanding such articles is not
>>> desirable - after all, we wish to be the premier source of general
>>> information on everything - but it is not due to gender bias, and to
>>> imply that it is to me is reinforcing the
>>> "woman-as-empty-headed-shallow-person".
>>>
>> Actually, your argument here is serving /that/ purpose quite well.
>>
>>
> ? Either I'm misunderstanding you, or I've just been insulted.
>

You're not helping your cause...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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list: wikipedia-l

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] [Foundation-l] contents
 under	education/information licenses

body:
David Monniaux wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
>
>> You're still not convincing us that Wikimedia needs to change its
>> policies here, rather than waiting for them to realise that it's not
>> us nastily keeping them out. There's a world outside France.
>>
> I understand that this is a US-centric project, yes, and I'll advertise
> it as such.
>

What's this I hear about fr: Wikiquote being closed down?

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
Puppy wrote:
> Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
>> Puppy wrote:
>>
>>> Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Puppy wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> This is not to say that improving and expanding such articles is not
>>>>> desirable - after all, we wish to be the premier source of general
>>>>> information on everything - but it is not due to gender bias, and to
>>>>> imply that it is to me is reinforcing the
>>>>> "woman-as-empty-headed-shallow-person".
>>>>>
>>>> Actually, your argument here is serving /that/ purpose quite well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ? Either I'm misunderstanding you, or I've just been insulted.
>>>
>>>
>> You're not helping your cause...
>>
>>
> Then I've been insulted. Thank you for clarifying that for me. I hoped I
> was merely misunderstanding your intent. It is entirely possible you
> have misunderstood me; if you confine yourself to making sarcastic
> remarks and insulting me, I cannot judge and cannot clarify for you.
> What purpose do you intend your insults to serve, or do you merely enjoy
> insulting others without any sort of constructive criticism or
> meaningful dialogue?
>

Women arguing on this list reinforces the view of
"woman-as-empty-headed-shallow-person".

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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from_name: Angela Beesley

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] [Foundation-l] contents under
	education/information licenses

body:
On 11/23/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:

> What's this I hear about fr: Wikiquote being closed down?

That was in March. There's a statement about it at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications_subcommittees/Press/2006/03/28_fr.Wikiquote_brief

Angela.


subject: [Commons-l] Getting rid of 'best before'

body:
On 11/23/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think this is not the best attitude. (Especially since we can't stop
> any Wikimedia wiki using our content, so it's a kinda hollow threat.)

If the content becomes so unstable it becomes inposible to use people
would stop useing it.

> If Commons is going to serve its primary useful purpose, it definitely
> needs the acceptance and cooperation of Wikimedia wikis. Alienating
> projects with a "if you don't like it, tough" attitude seems
> counterproductive.

That would depend on what exactly commons wants to be. En wikipedia
has ~300K free images hosted localy so in some ways commons is already
not performing that function.
--
geni


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Everything old is new again

body:
Steve Bennett stated for the record:
> On 11/24/06, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
>> I remember reading about 666, the Number of the Beast, in some book
>> or another in the fifties, and thinking that was an interesting bit
>
> [[The Number of the Beast (novel)]], by Heinlein?

If he was reading a book published in 1980 in the fifties, he's wasting
his time writing for Wikipedia. All his good stuff will be deleted as
either WP:OR or WP:CRYSTAL.

--
 Sean Barrett     | The only thing we have to fear is fear itself--
 sean at epoptic.com | nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror
                  | which paralyzes needed efforts to convert
                  | retreat into advance. --Franklin D. Roosevelt


from_name: Chris Picone

subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright Violation Bot

body:
Coding the semi-auto bot in Applescript is hard, because Applescript
ain't too powerful and I'm not quite good enough. I'm going to keep
trying to code it for a few days, but just so I don't waste effort, is
AWB capable of this sorta thing? I mean, selecting random sentences
and putting them on the clipboard for Googling.

If I can't finish this, would any of you Wikipedians be so kind as to
write a script for me to run? Thanks,
Chris

On 11/23/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, please work on a anti-copyvio bot. I've seen several bad things on the
> increase (you don't want to see newpages right now) Any tool that automates
> part of the process is useful. Like someone said earlier: it's good if you
> make it semi-automatic, to filter out false positives. Ask help of other
> bot-builders if you need it.
>
> Mgm
>
>
> On 11/23/06, Chris Picone <ccool2ax at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I'll use the list of mirrors in my script too and since I
> > manually check each edit, I can pretty easily tell that it's an
> > other-way-around copyvio (e.g. if wikilinks/section headers are
> > preserved)
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On 11/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 11/23/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > When featuring the script, don't limit it to just excluding
> > > > en.wikipedia.org-- in fact, filter out any mention of "wikipedia".
> > >
> > > There are a lot of mirrors out there that do not credit us. DB had a
> > > lot of problems with his bot.
> > >
> > > --
> > > geni
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Cool Cat

subject: [Commons-l] Category:User scripts

body:
Ah, I see, would it be possible for this to also handle deletions/keeps? The
idea is that the tools to significantly reduce our workload.
    - Cool Cat

On 11/23/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Cool Cat wrote:
> > I am a Script-1, where am I supposed to put that? Monobook? That
> > script should also create a default summary for the delete window
> > assuming I decide to delete. It should remove delete template if I
> > decide to keep. (delete/keep combo box perhaps with excuse field as a
> > text box)
> >
>
> It doesn't handle deletions; it only works on a COM:DEL subpage. Check
> out my monbook.js to see how I'm calling it.
>
> --
> Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
> "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
> Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
>
>
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from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Foundation-l] Corporate contacts

body:
Just to clarify, I will be contacting these people for fundraising purposes
and will be maintaining the lists, so you can also send teh information
directly  to me. Alternately, if you have contacts that you think it would be best
to  speak with directly, please contact me privately. I will be happy to
discuss  ways to make the pitch as effectively as possible and to provide you with
an  information packet that will make the pitch easier.

Danny

In a message dated 11/23/2006 7:43:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
oscar.wiki at gmail.com writes:

of  course i am willing to share, but the whole point with *high  level
contacts* is that they in general go through a personal connection  which
should not be bypassed in the first instance.
pursuing this kind  of contacts must generally begin with concretely
involving the people with  these contacts in my experience.
(the above is not stating anything  contrary, but rather complementary)

best,
oscar

On 11/23/06,  Erik Moeller <erik at wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> The Board and  Executive Director are compiling a database of
> high-level corporate  contacts for various uses, such as fundraising.
> If you have high-level  contacts with major corporations which you are
> willing to share, or  make introductions to, please send an e-mail to
> me or Anthere ASAP.  Thank you very much.
> --
> Peace & Love,
>  Erik
>
> Member, Wikimedia Foundation Board of  Trustees
>
> DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise stated, all views or  opinions expressed
> in this message are solely my own and do not  represent an official
> position of the Wikimedia Foundation or its  Board of Trustees.
>  _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing  list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>  http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l  mailing  list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


subject: [Foundation-l] Corporate contacts


body:
I am starting a [[Commons:Power toys]] page for prospective requests. I'd
like to add that I want to avoid bureaucracy. This is just to brainstorm
ideas.
     - Cool Cat

On 11/23/06, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/22/06, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > I really want better deletion tools as I am required to do a thousand
> > deletions per day to keep up with backlog (as it is now). It is
> > theoretically impossible for us to deal with the commons backlog at the
> rate
> > of increasing backlog versus the rate of successfully admin candidates.
> > Commons backlog is actualy already out of control.
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > As it stands it is clear that commons is a failing system. We should
> really
> > have more tools here on commons at our disposal. It should take me two
> > clicks to review and delete an image.
>
> I'll be pretty busy with other things (commonly refered to as "real
> life";-) for another week or so, but after that I'll have time to
> build new toys^W tools. Maybe you (that is, anyone concerned) should
> whip up a page with what you need. Preferably something I can do on
> the toolserver, as it really cuts development/bug fixing times.
>
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
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from_name: Edward Z. Yang

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brion Vibber wrote:
> I suspect we could have an extension-like interface for overriding the
> generic default messages with some site-specific defaults. That
> _probably_ would even work with the present extension interface.
>
> If we're clever, we could also make something editable, probably, with
> appropriate shared caching.
>
> (Attention: clever people! Try your hand and become famous. :)

I'd like to ask for clarification, then.  Is the issue about
actual messages floating around that shouldn't be there for external
wikis?  Or simply the fact that if the language file was made totally
install neutral, there'd have to be a lot of work to get the messages
in-line with Wikimedia's policies (an in-house tool)?  Are we talking
about a mass MediaWiki message editing tool?

Brion, the signature attached to that last posting wasn't valid.
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from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 23/11/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:

> That would depend on what exactly commons wants to be. En wikipedia
> has ~300K free images hosted localy so in some ways commons is already
> not performing that function.

I would call that a local interface problem rather than a conscious
avoidance of Commons.

I always upload free images directly to Commons, but when you click
"Upload file", [[Special:Upload]] says you should "consider" uploading
it to Commons. Uploading to en: is just lots easier unless you know
your way around Wikimedia.

And when you click on the link to upload to Commons, it tells you you
need a login there too. "What, *another* login? I'll just upload to
en:, it's much easier." SUL! SUL!

By the way, Commons admins may care to compare:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload

I wonder if anyone is up to translating the harsh text of the second
example into enough languages ... certainly into Spanish.

- d.


from_name: Pedro Sanchez

subject: [WikiEN-l] Google Earth screenshots

body:
On 11/23/06, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/23/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> > What should we do with the screenshots taken from Google Earth?
> > I see that more and more of them are uploaded on en.wiki, for example
> > to illustrate things such as high-schools or cities. But, does the
> > fair-use claim hold up?
>
> Delete them all. Unless they're used in [[Google Earth]] to
> demonstrate how the program looks, there's simply no valid reason to
> include them when:
>
> a) free alternatives are almost always available via WorldWind
> (especially for the US)
> b) the coordinates templates [1] allow people to easily look the same
> information up themselves, with only two clicks of the mouse, and with
> no copyright issues whatsoever.
>
> > Note that some of the images claim "PD".
>
> In that case the uploaders need a stern talking to. It's hard to
> imagine that people don't realise that imagery from Google Earth is
> copyrighted when it's plastered all over the bottom of the screen, and
> appears in the screenshots.
>
> --
> (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Coordinates_templates
>
> --
> Stephen Bain
> stephen.bain at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

YES Delete them all, as WorldWind is a free alternative and they all
fial criteria 1. When deleting, point them to
http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/ so they get the free program.

Also, not ALL the stuff on WorldWind seems to be PD, as long as you
stay away from "Zoom IT" feature (uncheck it from layer manager)
you're fine.

*** drini [n=84fe6805 at madmappers.freeearthfoundation.com] has joined #worldwind
*** Topic is: World Wind Bugs to Squash before release page:
http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/World_Wind_1.3.6_-_1.4_Bug_List_For_Release
| 2bn.net = new upload site | TwoBeds is back-ish
*** Topic set by ShockFire [Sat Nov  4 19:46:49 2006]
*** drini Mordoch maurizioSA ominiverdi m_k Starfury^ spoop T_Servo
Hillwang +nhv ctweedie mlucas_ what_nick _adam_gfx _dreaminofjeanni
+Llynix +ShockFire NeoThermic mazzanet Apagador Selar Bull_[UK] nelson
Ghostwolf +Nowak- @ChanServ @Nowak hacker Kuutio Puuhis anselm
*** Channel created on Tue Nov 16 13:51:47 2004
*** #worldwind [freenode-info] if you need to send private messages,
please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
<drini> while worldwind is free, what's the copyright status of the images?
<drini> are they PD? (i.e. can I use the images it produced as PD as
NASA is a gov agency) ?
<m_k> Landsat, BM and USGS are public domain
<drini> how do I know if I'm using only them?= I want a view of Irvine CA
<Bull_[UK]> US images should be pd
<m_k> by looking at the layer manager? :)
<drini> :) great idea
<drini> yes Bull_[UK] , but I wanted to know for sure, specially when
I'm doing any place, not just US
<drini> (for wikipedia licensing details)
<m_k> everything that comes with WW OOTB is PD (not sure about ZoomIt!)
<drini> ok I'l stay away from zoomit
<Bull_[UK]> http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Add-on:ZoomIt%21 -
zoomit details
<Bull_[UK]> you can checkthe specific liceses
<drini> great
<maurizioSA> Robben Island is copyrighted
<maurizioSA> if you want to use you must send details to info at
madmappers dot com and I might get permission
<maurizioSA> depending what is for
<Bull_[UK]> the US stuff should be ok its from gov agencies iirc
<Bull_[UK]> and new zealand is from LINZ
<Bull_[UK]> http://www.linz.govt.nz/home/index.html
<Bull_[UK]> what_nick - is LINZ data D?
<Bull_[UK]> PD*
<drini> how do I know a map is getting its data from linz or
madmappers... within the program
<what_nick_> pd ?
<Bull_[UK]> public domain
<what_nick_> yes
<Bull_[UK]> drini - open layer manager->zoomitthen untick any layers
you are unsure about
<drini> ok
<Bull_[UK]> like untick south africa
<maurizioSA> in ZoomIt! South Africa is mad mappers supplied image
<maurizioSA> If there is any commercial aspect I can tell you now that
I will not manage to get permission
<drini> no, I?m only interested in PD stuff
<drini> we want to delete as much google map "fair use" images that
have been uploaded
<maurizioSA> even the name Robben Island has been registered since it
is a world heritage site administered by a private company
<drini> into wikipedia
<Bull_[UK]> cool
<what_nick_> :)


subject: [Foundation-l] Permissions page on wikimediafoundation.org?

body:
I keep getting email from people asking permission to use stuff. Is
there a simple permissions page on wikimediafoundation.org? I'm
thinking of something that can be linked from [[Contact us]] the way
[[Press room]] is.

(The request that provoked me to write this was a recent request for
logo use permission in a press article about Wikipedia. Which, as I
understand it, we allow fairly freely. But I can't find the page on
it.)

I'm thinking of something simpler than the reuse page I started on
Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reuse - possibly something
that just says:

* Content: almost all text and images on Wikimedia sites are ''not''
owned by Wikimedia. You can reuse them under the relevant free-content
licence, or by direct arrangement with the creator. See (link to above
commons page).
* Wikipedia/Wikimedia logos: see [[logo use policy]].
* ...

- d.


body:
On 23/11/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> (The request that provoked me to write this was a recent request for
> logo use permission in a press article about Wikipedia. Which, as I
> understand it, we allow fairly freely. But I can't find the page on
> it.)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press

- d.


from_name: luke brandt

subject: [Foundation-l] Do we have a policy on fair use in Wikipedias?

body:
I asked this question a few hours ago on another thread - 'contents
under education/information licenses', and since then Erik said: "As for
the argument that we do allow fair use -- we do indeed. But as I always
emphasize, fair use is not on equal footing with freely licensed
content. It can be removed almost at will, or replaced with more freely
licensed content of lower quality. A rationale is required for its
invocation, and many projects now have whitelists of allowable fair use
cases."

But we tried to formulate a policy in EN Wikipedia to make open content
mandatory in a very limited class of images...see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Images_of_living_people

and the discussion on it...you'll see that there was (and is still)
virtually no support for such a principle from anyone.

Is there a clearly stated policy on fair use please, whether to
eliminate it or otherwise?

Thanks for any help -- Luke


body:
On 11/23/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/11/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That would depend on what exactly commons wants to be. En wikipedia
> > has ~300K free images hosted localy so in some ways commons is already
> > not performing that function.
>
>
> I would call that a local interface problem rather than a conscious
> avoidance of Commons.
>
> I always upload free images directly to Commons, but when you click
> "Upload file", [[Special:Upload]] says you should "consider" uploading
> it to Commons. Uploading to en: is just lots easier unless you know
> your way around Wikimedia.
>
> And when you click on the link to upload to Commons, it tells you you
> need a login there too. "What, *another* login? I'll just upload to
> en:, it's much easier." SUL! SUL!
>

I think commons should be somewhat grateful for this fact. It means
the images from EN have been somewhat filtered.

> By the way, Commons admins may care to compare:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload
>

The en one has been criticised for its "angry fruit salad" look.

It also fails to include the image details template that commons seems
to use as standard.

> I wonder if anyone is up to translating the harsh text of the second
> example into enough languages ... certainly into Spanish.
>

Russian already exists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Uploadtext/ru

En upload also includes more licence selection traps (I should add
some more at some point for invalid fair use stuff) than commons
something commons might want to look into

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
Kat Walsh wrote:
> On 11/22/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Puppy wrote:
>>> Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
>
>>> Then I've been insulted. Thank you for clarifying that for me. I hoped I
>>> was merely misunderstanding your intent. It is entirely possible you
>>> have misunderstood me; if you confine yourself to making sarcastic
>>> remarks and insulting me, I cannot judge and cannot clarify for you.
>>> What purpose do you intend your insults to serve, or do you merely enjoy
>>> insulting others without any sort of constructive criticism or
>>> meaningful dialogue?
>>>
>> Women arguing on this list reinforces the view of
>> "woman-as-empty-headed-shallow-person".
>
> I really hope I'm misunderstanding your comments, Alphax.
>
> I note, as a data point, that I've never felt myself to be on the
> receiving end of slights on-wiki for being female (dealings with a
> certain banned user or two excepted) -- but kc has a point, and a
> well-expressed one at that.
>
> And if you don't think so, you're welcome to say so in a more
> constructive and intelligent fashion than you did here.
>

YHBT, YHL, HAND? No, that's not very constructive.

The point that I was trying to get across was that this thread is
pointless. I'm putting myself on moderation.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
On 23/11/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm thinking of something simpler than the reuse page I started on
> Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reuse - possibly something
> that just says:
> * Content: almost all text and images on Wikimedia sites are ''not''
> owned by Wikimedia. You can reuse them under the relevant free-content
> licence, or by direct arrangement with the creator. See (link to above
> commons page).
> * Wikipedia/Wikimedia logos: see [[logo use policy]].
> * ...

OK, I've edited the English-language version of the [[Contact us]]
page and the [[Press room]] page:

  http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Contact_us
  http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_room

Please have a look and see if I've written anything really wrong or horrible.

(cc'd directly to Danny and Brad for obvious reasons!)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright Violation Bot

body:
On 11/23/06, Chris Picone <ccool2ax at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been seeing a rise in in-article copyvios. Last night I got one
> in [[Content managment system]]. I know that only some paragrahs have
> these copyvios, and not entire articles, so complete rewirtes aren't
> necessary. Thus, I'm attempting to write a script that
> (a) opens tabs with "Special:Random" on them
> (b) select the first setence from each paragraph (line break)
> (c) Google the sentence
> (d) If there are any exact matches not from en.wikipedia.org, put up a
> little message for me to check and remove the copyvio.
> (e) repeat.
>
> Problem is, all I know is Applescript. If any of you Perl or
> pywikipedia or AWB-types have another way of writing this, can someone
> write it so the general community can use it to remove copyvios? (or
> is this possible with AWB?)
>
> Chris (Ccool2ax)

Your really killer is that google limits the number of searches per
IP. The other issues is the first senace tends to be the one most
likely to be altured. Not saying it's imposible just rather hard to
do.

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright Violation Bot

body:
On 11/23/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> When featuring the script, don't limit it to just excluding
> en.wikipedia.org-- in fact, filter out any mention of "wikipedia".

There are a lot of mirrors out there that do not credit us. DB had a
lot of problems with his bot.

--
geni


from_name: Joe Anderson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Google Earth screenshots

body:
Would this be public domain?

On 11/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/23/06, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/23/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> > > What should we do with the screenshots taken from Google Earth?
> > > I see that more and more of them are uploaded on en.wiki, for example
> > > to illustrate things such as high-schools or cities. But, does the
> > > fair-use claim hold up?
> >
> > Delete them all. Unless they're used in [[Google Earth]] to
> > demonstrate how the program looks, there's simply no valid reason to
> > include them when:
> >
> > a) free alternatives are almost always available via WorldWind
> > (especially for the US)
>
> For the UK there is a datated but free high quality alternative for
> anyone who is prepared to do a search through the national monuments
> record archive.
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
Joe Anderson

[[User:Computerjoe]] on en, fr, de, simple, Meta and Commons.


from_name: Rob Church

body:
On 23/11/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> "Number 6... the LART"

My LART is bigger than yours.

Rob Church


body:
On 23/11/06, luke brandt <shojokid at gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there a clearly stated policy on fair use please, whether to
> eliminate it or otherwise?

On wikis allowing fair use, there is no top-down policy giving license
to act like a deletionbot, except the image patrollers going "um, no."
and shooting blatant violations.

- d.


from_name: Simetrical

subject: [Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [17865] trunk/phase3/includes

body:
On 11/23/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/11/06, simetrical at svn.wikimedia.org <simetrical at svn.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > * Put AOL proxy IPs in whitelist, and also one from Singapore that was troublesome on enwiki (more should be added, probably?)
>
> We should probably *not* specify our custom whitelist in the default
> distribution.

Why not, if 95%+ of the hits from a given IP address will probably not
be from the same person as the previous hit?  Anyone from the AOL
ranges at least is guaranteed not to be the same one as the last hit
was, in fact, or pretty much so.  The same should go for any IP that
changes per page load.  The Singapore one, I'll grant, maybe not,
since I'm not totally clear on its status.


body:
On 23/11/06, Tim Starling <tstarling at wikimedia.org> wrote:
> End users other than Wikimedia, you mean? We still have no way to set
> site-wide default messages apart from editing the messages file. The
> messages files still have some Wikimedia-specific text, such as the donation
> link and the wording of the copyright notices. No doubt there would be more
> such Wikimedia references if we had a way to include them without having
> them show up on 10,000 other sites.

I shall not be drawn back into arguing with Tim Starling
I shall not be drawn back into arguing with Tim Starling
I shall not be drawn back into arguing with Tim Starling
I shall not be drawn back into arguing with Tim Starling
I shall not be drawn back into arguing with Tim Starling
I shall not be drawn back into arguing with Tim Starling
I shall not be...

Rob Church


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 23/11/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/11/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > (The request that provoked me to write this was a recent request for
> > logo use permission in a press article about Wikipedia. Which, as I
> > understand it, we allow fairly freely. But I can't find the page on
> > it.)
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press

Oh, *marvellous*. I've always faffed about what to do with "can we use
your logo" OTRS queries.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright Violation Bot

body:
Yes, please work on a anti-copyvio bot. I've seen several bad things on the
increase (you don't want to see newpages right now) Any tool that automates
part of the process is useful. Like someone said earlier: it's good if you
make it semi-automatic, to filter out false positives. Ask help of other
bot-builders if you need it.

Mgm

On 11/23/06, Chris Picone <ccool2ax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, I'll use the list of mirrors in my script too and since I
> manually check each edit, I can pretty easily tell that it's an
> other-way-around copyvio (e.g. if wikilinks/section headers are
> preserved)
>
> Chris
>
> On 11/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/23/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > When featuring the script, don't limit it to just excluding
> > > en.wikipedia.org-- in fact, filter out any mention of "wikipedia".
> >
> > There are a lot of mirrors out there that do not credit us. DB had a
> > lot of problems with his bot.
> >
> > --
> > geni
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On 23/11/06, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:

> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press

> Oh, *marvellous*. I've always faffed about what to do with "can we use
> your logo" OTRS queries.

Yep! And if the editability of that page is a problem, [[Contact us]]
on the foundation wiki now says "LOOK, JUST USE OUR LOGOS, OK?!"

- d.


from_name: Robert Leverington

subject: [Foundation-l] Size of Uploaded file.

body:
Try the MediaWiki-l mailing list for MediaWiki support, this list is
for disscussion about the Wikimedia Foundation.

On 23/11/06, Manjunath H.T <manju_h_t at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>   Can anyone suggest what variables in which file needs to be modified to upload files with larger size......
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Robert (aka Lcarsdata),

Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM (Digital
Restrictions Management) -- learn about the dangers at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm


subject: [Foundation-l] Size of Uploaded file.


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Making it easier for the public to help out

body:
On 11/20/06, Rory Stolzenberg <rory096 at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's true, but it's still a good idea. How about having different things
> in different places?  A tab up on top would be useful for obvious problems
> with the article that people see before they read it. A big box on the
> bottom saying "[[Wikipedia:Notifying us of problems|Was there anything wrong
> with this article?]]" or whatever would allow people to report problems
> after they read the page, but it wouldn't disrupt reading experience because
> it's over. We could also change section editing's "[edit]" to something more
> specific, or add another link right next to it to link to the same page that
> the bottom box links to.

Yep. How do we get started? We're basically agreed that we want:
1) Some visible front end for anons - possibly in the "anonnotice"
(whatever that is), possibly in the stylesheet to make it appear at
the section level, or at the end of the article. Anyone know how to
make this happen?

2) A place that this links to, which preserves state (ie, where it
came from), offering a range of common problems, and where to go for
help for problems that aren't addressed there.

3) A way of collecting more information depending on the type of problem

4) A way of transforming then storing that information on the
article's talk page. Ideally it will also be stored on a centralised
page, but if not, categories will be used to centralise these
requests.

I don't know how to implement any of these, except perhaps 2 (not sure
about the statefulness). Worse, I don't know what's involved in
implementing them, like whether MediaWiki itself needs to be modified.
Can JavaScript do all this? If so, presumably monobook.js or something
can be modified? Anyone know?

Steve


from_name: Nick Jenkins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Few initialization / can-we-delete-this questions

body:
Few initialization / can-we-delete-this questions, if anyone can shed any light on them:

-------------------------------------------

Line 2136 of includes/User.php, $expiration is not defined:
  $url = $this->confirmationTokenUrl( $expiration );

-------------------------------------------

Line 427 of inclides\MimeMagic.php, $script does not seem to be used, so can this line be deleted? :
  if (preg_match('%/?([^\s]+/)(w+)%sim',$head,$match)) $script= $match[2];

-------------------------------------------

Line 59 of includes/SpecialRecentChanges.php - $options is not defined, and doesn't seem to be used, so any reason to keep this:
        # As a feed, use limited settings only
	if( $feedFormat ) {
		global $wgFeedLimit;
		if( $limit > $wgFeedLimit ) {
			$options['limit'] = $wgFeedLimit;
		}

	}

-------------------------------------------

Line 652 of includes\ImagePage.php, any reason to keep this, as $size does not seem to be used:
		$dbr =& wfGetDB( DB_SLAVE );
		$size = $dbr->selectField( 'oldimage', 'oi_size', array( 'oi_archive_name' => $oldimage )  );

-------------------------------------------

Line 75 of includes\SpecialRevisiondelete.php, any reason this line can't be deleted, as $bitfields isn't used or declared :
			$bitfields[] = $rev->mDeleted; // FIXME

-------------------------------------------

All the best,
Nick.


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Was: Google Earth screenshots

body:
On 11/23/06, Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez at gmail.com> wrote:
> suggestion: Why don't we push for creating
> [[Category:Google maps images]]
> as a subcategory of Fair use images
> if we get average joe user tagging images with such category it's
> going to be easier for us reviewing themn and deleting when
> appropiated

 Joe user doesn't use cats and there are not really enough of the
things to be a problem anyway.

--
geni


from_name: Bence Damokos

subject: [Commons-l] CommonsDelinker

body:
That's quite sad :( . What do you wanna do to avoid this problem after a new
bot is created/old is transferred to new owner? I mean you can't fight a 100
wikis, but you can say "take it or leave it". The Delinker having bot status
on the other hand I think is counter-productive as lazy users don't get
notified as visibly as they should, that a new picture should be found.

Also there was discussion that the Ticker wouldn't have to notify anymore of
deletions. I oppose this, as it would make it may make it harder for admins
to restore the image, if it was previously deleted from the local wiki. Also
withouth the ticker finding the pages where the actions of the delinker need
be reverted after such a restoration would be harder, without the Ticker
giving a list of pages where it was used until the image file existed.

Dami

On 11/23/06, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It was discontinued by its operator because individual wikis required the
> bot to get individual bot status approval. The creator was even asked on
> commons to get approval. The bureaucracy is overwhelmed him basically.
>     - Cool Cat
>
> On 11/17/06, Bence Damokos <bdamokos at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > "and unlinking them [deleted images] is sometimes a serious pain"
> > [copied from thread: Re: [Commons-l] Getting rid of "best before]
> >
> > What is the status of the CommonsDelinker bot, why does it seem
> > inactive? Was there a decision to stop it?
> >
> > Bence Damokos
> > huwiki
> >
> > On 11/17/06, Cool Cat < wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I believe that is not happening due to technical limitations.
> > > Currently we just subst: current day/month/year. I would like that though.
> > >
> > > It takes longer than 7 days because there are WAY too many of them to
> > > delete and unlinking them is sometimes a serious pain (pd-soviet images are
> > > particularly cluttering the backlog)
> > >
> > > PS (unrelated): Magnus your tool has issues with .gif images I
> > > believe. I do not know if you fixed this recently.
> > > PS (unrelated): If your tool would detect "http" (possible source) and
> > > treated such images differently it would be of great help since sometimes
> > > people forget to remove the no source template. (sometimes it is a hunt to
> > > find a url in a block of text on the tool)
> > >
> > > On 11/15/06, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > When I just read about admins getting scolded for deleting an image
> > > > that was long past its "due date", I thought about the nature of the
> > > > templates and the message they convey.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, they say something like "this image needs more source
> > > > info"
> > > > etc., and give the date the template was added. If nothing changes,
> > > > the image *may* be deleted after, what, a month? This would be the
> > > > equivalent of "best before" - in reality, it might last a lot longer
> > > >
> > > > than that.
> > > >
> > > > What if the attitude of the templates were changed? "This image
> > > > lacks
> > > > this and that. It will be deleted on XXXX-YY-ZZ unless this
> > > > information is provided." My tool [2] can be used to find images
> > > > that
> > > > have reached their final use-by date, and could be deleted with good
> > > > reason.
> > > >
> > > > Theoretically, one could write a bot which could do the deletions,
> > > > so
> > > > no admins get scolded. The idea of a deletion-bot with admin rights
> > > > (a
> > > > virtual equivalent of [2];-) might sound scary, but setting it for
> > > > "no
> > > > edits for a month since addition of the template", combined with the
> > > > image resurrection capability, should calm this.
> > > >
> > > > Magnus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [1] http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/bad_old_ones.php<http://tools.wikimedia.de/%7Emagnus/bad_old_ones.php>
> > > > [2]
> > > > http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/samsung_develops_machine_gun_sentry_robot_costs_200k.php
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Commons-l mailing list
> > > > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Commons-l mailing list
> > > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Commons-l mailing list
> > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
>
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body:
  Yo,
  I think we need to be a bit more persuasive about the cooperation thing.
We aren't even sending angry mail when a local wiki causes a setback.
  Local wikis should understand that by unlinking, we are doing them a
favor. We are not even required to unlink any images instead  we are simply
recommended in doing so.
  All local wikis must cut back on bureaucracy on any and all issues
involving commons. We aren't able to get anything done because of the
retarded amount of bureaucracy. A good example would be the delinking bots
to this problem.
  Identifying a problem is the first step in seeking a solution.
      - Cool Cat

On 11/23/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 23/11/06, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Having said that we absolutely need a delinking bot. If the delinker
> gets
> > blocked in local wikis they cease to become our problem. If wikis are
> going
> > to use our content they definitely need to be cooperative.
>
> I think this is not the best attitude. (Especially since we can't stop
> any Wikimedia wiki using our content, so it's a kinda hollow threat.)
> If Commons is going to serve its primary useful purpose, it definitely
> needs the acceptance and cooperation of Wikimedia wikis. Alienating
> projects with a "if you don't like it, tough" attitude seems
> counterproductive.
>
> > I really want better deletion tools as I am required to do a thousand
> > deletions per day to keep up with backlog (as it is now). It is
> > theoretically impossible for us to deal with the commons backlog at the
> rate
> > of increasing backlog versus the rate of successfully admin candidates.
> > Commons backlog is actualy already out of control.
>
> Nice of you to notice, it's been like that as long as I've been paying
> attention, too. ;)
>
> Anyway getting Magnus on side is always a good start to any
> sideproject for the Commons, so I look forward to seeing what you guys
> can come up with.
>
> regards,
> Brianna
> user:pfctdayelise
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
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body:
On 11/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/23/06, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/23/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> > > What should we do with the screenshots taken from Google Earth?
> > > I see that more and more of them are uploaded on en.wiki, for example
> > > to illustrate things such as high-schools or cities. But, does the
> > > fair-use claim hold up?
> >
> > Delete them all. Unless they're used in [[Google Earth]] to
> > demonstrate how the program looks, there's simply no valid reason to
> > include them when:
> >
> > a) free alternatives are almost always available via WorldWind
> > (especially for the US)
>
> For the UK there is a datated but free high quality alternative for
> anyone who is prepared to do a search through the national monuments
> record archive.
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

suggestion: Why don't we push for creating
[[Category:Google maps images]]
as a subcategory of Fair use images
if we get average joe user tagging images with such category it's
going to be easier for us reviewing themn and deleting when
appropiated


subject: [Commons-l] CommonsDelinker

body:
It was discontinued by its operator because individual wikis required the
bot to get individual bot status approval. The creator was even asked on
commons to get approval. The bureaucracy is overwhelmed him basically.
    - Cool Cat

On 11/17/06, Bence Damokos <bdamokos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "and unlinking them [deleted images] is sometimes a serious pain" [copied
> from thread: Re: [Commons-l] Getting rid of "best before]
>
> What is the status of the CommonsDelinker bot, why does it seem inactive?
> Was there a decision to stop it?
>
> Bence Damokos
> huwiki
>
> On 11/17/06, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I believe that is not happening due to technical limitations. Currently
> > we just subst: current day/month/year. I would like that though.
> >
> > It takes longer than 7 days because there are WAY too many of them to
> > delete and unlinking them is sometimes a serious pain (pd-soviet images are
> > particularly cluttering the backlog)
> >
> > PS (unrelated): Magnus your tool has issues with .gif images I believe.
> > I do not know if you fixed this recently.
> > PS (unrelated): If your tool would detect "http" (possible source) and
> > treated such images differently it would be of great help since sometimes
> > people forget to remove the no source template. (sometimes it is a hunt to
> > find a url in a block of text on the tool)
> >
> > On 11/15/06, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > When I just read about admins getting scolded for deleting an image
> > > that was long past its "due date", I thought about the nature of the
> > > templates and the message they convey.
> > >
> > > Currently, they say something like "this image needs more source info"
> > >
> > > etc., and give the date the template was added. If nothing changes,
> > > the image *may* be deleted after, what, a month? This would be the
> > > equivalent of "best before" - in reality, it might last a lot longer
> > > than that.
> > >
> > > What if the attitude of the templates were changed? "This image lacks
> > > this and that. It will be deleted on XXXX-YY-ZZ unless this
> > > information is provided." My tool [2] can be used to find images that
> > > have reached their final use-by date, and could be deleted with good
> > > reason.
> > >
> > > Theoretically, one could write a bot which could do the deletions, so
> > > no admins get scolded. The idea of a deletion-bot with admin rights (a
> > >
> > > virtual equivalent of [2];-) might sound scary, but setting it for "no
> > > edits for a month since addition of the template", combined with the
> > > image resurrection capability, should calm this.
> > >
> > > Magnus
> > >
> > >
> > > [1] http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/bad_old_ones.php<http://tools.wikimedia.de/%7Emagnus/bad_old_ones.php>
> > > [2]
> > > http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/samsung_develops_machine_gun_sentry_robot_costs_200k.php
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Commons-l mailing list
> > > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Commons-l mailing list
> > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
>
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body:
On 22/11/06, simetrical at svn.wikimedia.org <simetrical at svn.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> * Put AOL proxy IPs in whitelist, and also one from Singapore that was troublesome on enwiki (more should be added, probably?)

We should probably *not* specify our custom whitelist in the default
distribution. Those AOL IPs could be useful for other site admins, and
should be listed in, e.g. docs/autoblocker.txt (which might be a nice
place to put some rewritten documentation on the changed autoblocker).

This has the downside that local admins on Wikimedia wikis will need
to sort out their lists, but it might be better if we let local
communities sort that out; bung the AOL ones somewhere accessible.

Bit of a problem either way. :|

Rob Church


body:
On 23/11/06, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/23/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 22/11/06, simetrical at svn.wikimedia.org <simetrical at svn.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > > * Put AOL proxy IPs in whitelist, and also one from Singapore that was troublesome on enwiki (more should be added, probably?)
> >
> > We should probably *not* specify our custom whitelist in the default
> > distribution.
>
> Why not, if 95%+ of the hits from a given IP address will probably not
> be from the same person as the previous hit?  Anyone from the AOL
> ranges at least is guaranteed not to be the same one as the last hit
> was, in fact, or pretty much so.  The same should go for any IP that
> changes per page load.  The Singapore one, I'll grant, maybe not,
> since I'm not totally clear on its status.

Actually, I'll back down on this issue, since

* it does make a certain sense for us to give AOL proxies the default
treatment, since AOL is such a shittily popular ISP
* with respect to the Wikimediaising of the messages, well, we do that
a little elsewhere anyway (think Sidebar layout) and it doesn't stop
people customising it

Rob Church


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
> Edward Z. Yang wrote:
>> Brion Vibber wrote:
> <snip>
>> Brion, the signature attached to that last posting wasn't valid.
>
> It was for me...

Here's the attached message I recieved. Maybe something is mangled?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFZl0oqTO+fYacSNoRAkaBAJ9c4REpAUdZxXzj+hopu32Q2+i6vwCfQnhu
+Q2nNB4L4tt5l2yCgwTY42s=
=fxY2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brion Vibber wrote:
>> Are we talking about a mass MediaWiki message editing tool?
>
> Sure, why not?

I'll see what I can do, then. Hmm... article editing code is notoriously
messy though...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFZl1NqTO+fYacSNoRAs3YAJ4teSmVLGa0Cfjv6XWQJoK9RpyRcQCfSC6H
Z3CjeSHFvDuxn3JHQ1i5I48=
=3j3m
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Bryan Tong Minh

body:
On 11/23/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/11/06, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Having said that we absolutely need a delinking bot. If the delinker gets
> > blocked in local wikis they cease to become our problem. If wikis are going
> > to use our content they definitely need to be cooperative.
>
> I think this is not the best attitude. (Especially since we can't stop
> any Wikimedia wiki using our content, so it's a kinda hollow threat.)
> If Commons is going to serve its primary useful purpose, it definitely
> needs the acceptance and cooperation of Wikimedia wikis. Alienating
> projects with a "if you don't like it, tough" attitude seems
> counterproductive.
>

However I think it is the only real solution. As a relative newcomer
on wikipedia, I find the bureaucracy enormous. It seems that actually
nobody wants to take the decision. I think it is time to do it.

Bryan


subject: [Commons-l] Commons reuse FAQ page

body:
Since I just linked it from the wikimediafoundation.org contact page,
I suppose this page should really be finished ...

  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Reusing_content_outside_Wikimedia

That is: a simple *one or two sentence* explanation of how to simply
satisfy each of our common free-content licences, simple enough that
the people who keep calling us asking to reuse articles or pictures
will read this instead and know just what to do. Please help!

(As noted at top, it should probably be moved to meta, but I suspect
we should finish it where it is first.)

- d.


subject: [Foundation-l] Commons reuse FAQ page


subject: [Foundation-l] Commons reuse FAQ page


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject: [WikiEN-l] Google Earth screenshots

body:
On 11/23/06, Bogdan Giusca <liste at dapyx.com> wrote:
> What should we do with the screenshots taken from Google Earth?
> I see that more and more of them are uploaded on en.wiki, for example
> to illustrate things such as high-schools or cities. But, does the
> fair-use claim hold up?

Delete them all. Unless they're used in [[Google Earth]] to
demonstrate how the program looks, there's simply no valid reason to
include them when:

a) free alternatives are almost always available via WorldWind
(especially for the US)
b) the coordinates templates [1] allow people to easily look the same
information up themselves, with only two clicks of the mouse, and with
no copyright issues whatsoever.

> Note that some of the images claim "PD".

In that case the uploaders need a stern talking to. It's hard to
imagine that people don't realise that imagery from Google Earth is
copyrighted when it's plastered all over the bottom of the screen, and
appears in the screenshots.

--
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Coordinates_templates

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-11-24

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/maintenance/parserTests.txt"...
Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Template with thumb image (with link in description)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Don't fall for the self-closing div... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Always escape literal '>' in output, not just after '<'... FAILED!

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...

Passed 449 of 469 tests (95.74%)... FAILED!


from_name: G. Beat

subject: [WikiEN-l]  Speedy deletion patrol

body:
Having been a victim of this patrol for one of my articles (WIUW) on Thanksgiving Day.  I think that some of the specific people performing the task -- are a bit "too quick" without reading.

In my case, the radio station actually lifted content from my Wikipedia article written in March 2006 -- to update and improve their web site ---- but the editor assumed copyright infringement (his mistake).

Hope you enjoyed Knox College honorary doctorate.

g. beat


from_name: Brianna Laugher

body:
On 23/11/06, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> Having said that we absolutely need a delinking bot. If the delinker gets
> blocked in local wikis they cease to become our problem. If wikis are going
> to use our content they definitely need to be cooperative.

I think this is not the best attitude. (Especially since we can't stop
any Wikimedia wiki using our content, so it's a kinda hollow threat.)
If Commons is going to serve its primary useful purpose, it definitely
needs the acceptance and cooperation of Wikimedia wikis. Alienating
projects with a "if you don't like it, tough" attitude seems
counterproductive.

> I really want better deletion tools as I am required to do a thousand
> deletions per day to keep up with backlog (as it is now). It is
> theoretically impossible for us to deal with the commons backlog at the rate
> of increasing backlog versus the rate of successfully admin candidates.
> Commons backlog is actualy already out of control.

Nice of you to notice, it's been like that as long as I've been paying
attention, too. ;)

Anyway getting Magnus on side is always a good start to any
sideproject for the Commons, so I look forward to seeing what you guys
can come up with.

regards,
Brianna
user:pfctdayelise


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [Foundation-l] Querylogs and accesslogs

body:
On 11/24/06, Antonio Gulli <gulli at di.unipi.it> wrote:
> Hi,
> are this information accessible for an academic research paper?
> Thank you

Sorry, we do not currently store this data because of the performance impact.
We do, however, have plenty of data on editing.

We also have some low quality sampled data on readership for some of
our projects at:

http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/


subject: [Foundation-l] Querylogs and accesslogs


from_name: Cool Cat

body:
Good sir, I agree with you.
   - Cool Cat

On 11/23/06, Bryan Tong Minh <bryan.tongminh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/23/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 23/11/06, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Having said that we absolutely need a delinking bot. If the delinker
> gets
> > > blocked in local wikis they cease to become our problem. If wikis are
> going
> > > to use our content they definitely need to be cooperative.
> >
> > I think this is not the best attitude. (Especially since we can't stop
> > any Wikimedia wiki using our content, so it's a kinda hollow threat.)
> > If Commons is going to serve its primary useful purpose, it definitely
> > needs the acceptance and cooperation of Wikimedia wikis. Alienating
> > projects with a "if you don't like it, tough" attitude seems
> > counterproductive.
> >
>
> However I think it is the only real solution. As a relative newcomer
> on wikipedia, I find the bureaucracy enormous. It seems that actually
> nobody wants to take the decision. I think it is time to do it.
>
> Bryan
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
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subject: [Wikitech-l] I18N / L10 / Language Wishlist

references:
<ejm49d$dga$1@sea.gmane.org> <ejnbj8$7er$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<ejnfkb$igf$1@sea.gmane.org> <ejoj8q$9e9$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<ek4713$4bm$1@sea.gmane.org> <ek5vdv$n0o$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 11/24/06, Tim Starling <tstarling at wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Edward Z. Yang wrote:
> > I did quite a bit of thinking on what you posted here, and some of it
> > quite fabulous. I still have a few questions:
> >
> > - If you had to rename every message in MediaWiki, would you have
> > enforced a definite naming convention? Namespaced them?
>
> Sure, I would have a naming convention. We've already more or less
> standardised on using prefixes for extension messages. Namespaces for core
> messages would probably be useful too. My main bugbear with the current
> system is punctuation style: Lee used strings of unbroken lowercase letters,
> which I think is hard to read. They're always quoted, so why not have spaces
> between words? Or underscores, if that's too progressive.

Someone suggested on IRC once that something might break if we use
spaces, because the message names also serve as page names and maybe
whatever creates the pages will expect underscores.  I usually use
hyphens, myself . . . I find them less obtrusive and easier to type
than underscores.


subject: [Foundation-l] Querylogs and accesslogs

body:
On 11/24/06, Antonio Gulli <gulli at di.unipi.it> wrote:
> Is wiki using apache web server or something equivalent server?
> I was referring to the access.log file

Although we use Apache, we do not store an access.log.
We also use squid, but have disabled logging in that as well.

At peak we are serving over 20,000 requests per second. At this
activity level logging would present a non-negligible performance and
administrative overhead.

Lets pretend for a moment that all access hit apache:

My local mediawiki installation on apache produces log entries of
232.13 bytes per hit on average. I would expect that my log entries
would be shorter than the entries we'd see in production.

Over a day we are receiving about 1,188,345,600 http requests.

This would be 256.9 GiB/day in access logs.

At 7.8 terabytes of log data to simply preserve a month's history,
keeping full access logs would be both unreasonable and wasteful.

If you have some especially interesting research ideas, and your
research can be done on smaller amounts of data that we might be
collecting (such as the wikicharts data) then I would be glad to
discuss the possibilities.  But it would be best to take that
discussion off list...


subject: [Foundation-l] Querylogs and accesslogs


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Rob Church wrote:
> On 22/11/06, brion at svn.wikimedia.org <brion at svn.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>> + * END USERS: DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE DIRECTLY!
>> + *
>> + * REPEAT!
>> + *
>> + * DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE DIRECTLY!
>> + * NOTHING WILL HAPPEN WHEN YOU DO THAT!
>> + *
>> + * You can make your customizations on the wiki.
>> + * While logged in as a sysop user, go to [[Special:Allmessages]]
>> + * and edit the MediaWiki:* pages listed there.
>> + *
>> + * DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE DIRECTLY OR YOU WILL JUST BE CONFUSED!
>
> I would be willing to put cold hard cash on it that someone is going
> to ignore this regardless, and I say, "ready your cluesticks" :)

End users other than Wikimedia, you mean? We still have no way to set
site-wide default messages apart from editing the messages file. The
messages files still have some Wikimedia-specific text, such as the donation
link and the wording of the copyright notices. No doubt there would be more
such Wikimedia references if we had a way to include them without having
them show up on 10,000 other sites.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: mingwangx

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimania 2007 Team Bulletin, 24 November, 2006

body:
*Wikimania 2007 Team Bulletin*

24 November, 2006<http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team_Bulletin/20061124>

We are starting to recruit volunteers for the preparation work and the
on-site services of Wikimania 2007 Taipei. Anyone who is interested in
contributing to this event, especially those living in Taiwan, is cordially
invited.

   - Service location: over Internet or on-site.
   - Talents needed:
      1. Information pages/packets on Taiwan: help to collect, edit,
      and maintain information pages about Taipei and Taiwan on the
Wikimania 2007
      website.
      2. Secretary: prepare meeting records, distribute notices and
      promotional materials.
      3. Art designer of web pages.
      4. On-site service: reception and other services on site.
      5. Other specialized fields: will be selected from volunteers
      for further training.
   - Please contact: KJ <http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:KaurJmeb> Email:
   kaurjmeb [at] gmail.comMSN: cityangelvmp [at] yahoo.com.tw
   - The recruitment is open until June 30th, 2007 (subject to change
   without further notice).
   - Qualifications: No discrimination by age or gender. Applicant should
   be interested in Internet culture, have a passion to volunteer, be familiar
   with typing on computer, be eager to learn new things, enjoy collecting,
   editing, and sharing information, and have spare time every week. Abilities
   in foreign languages are preferred but not required.
   - Computer skills: All levels are welcome, but those who are skilled
   at the following software are especially needed:
      1. graphics: Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash, Dreamweaver
      2. website: HTML, CSS, PHP, MediaWiki
   - Reimbursement:
      1. Service hours can be certified. Hours include those spent in
      training and actual services.
      2. Discounted admissions to Wikimania 2007.
   - Please provide your name, telephone number, email, graduated school
   and current occupation, and available time in your application message.

Besides the volunteer recruiting, the Team in Taipei also discussed the
following matters in its November 16th meeting over Skype:

   - Intelligent Times <http://www.itmag.org.tw/>, a Chinese magazine by
   Taiwan's Institute for Information Industry <http://www.iii.org.tw/>,
   will feature a special report on Wikimedia and Wikimania next year. Some
   articles will be contributed by Wikipedians in Taiwan.
   - The first Wikimania 2007 volunteer training
course<http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_training/20061209>will
be held on December 9th.
   - The website group of the Team is still looking for people who are
   familiar with PayPal, PHP, and API. Please contact
Littlebtc<http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Littlebtc>
   .
   - Ingy <http://search.cpan.org/%7Eingy/> will host the session on
   wikiwyg <http://wikiwyg.net/> during the Hacking days.
   - Wikimania 2007 will continue to use the 2006 logo.
   - A discussion and vote on the Chinese translation of "Wikimania" will
   be held on Chinese Wikipedia. Qweaz is in charge of this matter.

If you have any questions or suggestions, please leave them at...

   - http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Team_Bulletin/20061124
   - Wikimania-l mailing
list<http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>

Everyone is welcome to reproduce and distribute this bulletin to their
websites, mailing lists, BBS, blogs, and so on, but please kindly include the
Bulletin's original
location<http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team_Bulletin/20061124>on
the official Wikimania 2007 website in your distribution.


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] [OT] Everything old is new again

body:
> From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.com>
>
> Steve Bennett stated for the record:
>> On 11/24/06, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
>>> I remember reading about 666, the Number of the Beast, in some book
>>> or another in the fifties, and thinking that was an interesting bit
>>
>> [[The Number of the Beast (novel)]], by Heinlein?
>
> If he was reading a book published in 1980 in the fifties, he's
> wasting
> his time writing for Wikipedia. All his good stuff will be deleted as
> either WP:OR or WP:CRYSTAL.

If you must know, it was some kind of nerdy nonfiction... I read
about it in more than one place... it might have been a Martin
Gardner column on recreational mathematics, or some other semipopular
mathematical recreations book.

The sort of book that has stuff like magic squares and palindromes.
And gematria. I read about it in more than one place. Among other
things, it showed how people always find a way to make the letters of
the name of any prominent detested powerful person (e.g. Napoleon
Bonaparte) add up to 666.

> People were still writing good sci-fi after the fifties? Who knew?

To my mind, Heinlein's last good book was "Stranger in a Strange
Land." Even then his writing was starting to get flaky at the edges.
As I recall, that's the book in which his ?berman wise philosopher
character, Jubalation T. Cornpone or whatever his name is, makes a
big point of _dictating_ everything. I've always suspected that
Heinlein started to use a dictating machine when he wrote that novel,
and everything after that was sloppy, loosely-constructed, dictated,
stream-of-consciousness, self-indulgent crap.

But then Heinlein is always a writer that I have loved despite
obvious flaws. That awful dialogue, half of which seems to begin with
a grunt ("Uh, I guess so, Mr. Breen," "Huh? Oh, sure, if I can figure
it out," "Get him here." "Eh?" "Get him down here.") The tendency for
wise elder characters to pop up with maxims, well, sonny boy, don't
know what fancy stuff you've been learning in school but 'pears to me
that an engineer is someone who can do for two bits what anyone can
do for a dollar...


from_name: Antonio Gulli

subject: [Foundation-l] Querylogs and accesslogs

body:
Hi,
are this information accessible for an academic research paper?
Thank you


subject: [Foundation-l] Querylogs and accesslogs


subject: [Foundation-l] Querylogs and accesslogs

body:
Gregory Maxwell ha scritto:
> On 11/24/06, Antonio Gulli <gulli at di.unipi.it> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> are this information accessible for an academic research paper?
>> Thank you
>
Is wiki using apache web server or something equivalent server?
I was referring to the access.log file
> Sorry, we do not currently store this data because of the performance
> impact.
> We do, however, have plenty of data on editing.
>
> We also have some low quality sampled data on readership for some of
> our projects at:
>
> http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/
>
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Querylogs and accesslogs


from_name: Rich Holton

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 11/24/06, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton at gmail.com> wrote:
>> b) Creating a category for them makes it look like they are allowed,
>> which will probably just increase their usage.
>
> I'm going to object to the logic here. You're suggesting that by
> creating a category, people will simultaneously think they're allowed
> (and hence upload more of them), while not putting them in that
> category, because they know they're not allowed? That's too weird,
> even for Pok?mon fans.
>
The question is, do we want to frustrate those whose intent is to be
good citizens? Some will not bother to find the correct category, or
will intentionally pick what they know to be an incorrect category. For
those, the existence of a "correct" category will make little
difference. Others, however, will seek the correct category, because
they're trying to do what's right. For those people, seeing a category
may lead them to believe that Google Earth snaps are ok. Under this
proposal, we zap those people by deleting their contribution. This makes
no sense, unless we're more interested in catching people than in
encouraging proper behavior.

To use an analogy, it would be like having a special lane on a highway,
marked for "traffic in excess of speed limit". Then posting police to
ticket anyone using that lane.

-Rich


from_name: Florian Straub

subject: [Commons-l] Category:User scripts

body:
Alphax wrote:
> Florian Straub wrote:
> > Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> As for a "nuke image from COM:DEL page", I'd like to finish
> >> quick-delete
> >> first.
> >
> > On de.wp we've got a javascript that helps to delete
> > NowCommons-pictures.
> > Maybe it might help you. It was written by Revvar and it's included in
> > [[w:de:Benutzer:Flominator/monobook.js]].
> >
> > This script takes the filename from the template and adds it to the
> > deletion
> > reason.
> >
> > Maybe it helps ....
> >
>
> I assure you, I am very good at automating forms; check the move log of
> the 15th of October :)

It was no offence, I just wanted to help :)

Regards,

Flo


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
Guettarda stated for the record:
> On 11/22/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> YHBT, YHL, HAND? No, that's not very constructive.
>>
>> The point that I was trying to get across was that this thread is
>> pointless. I'm putting myself on moderation.
>
>
> Actually it was a very interesting and informative thread until you came
> along and started making misogynistic comments.  But good move on moderating
> yourself (though it's always better to just shut up when you can't help but
> be a bigot)

What purpose does your malicious needling serve?

--
 Sean Barrett     | The only thing we have to fear is fear itself--
 sean at epoptic.com | nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror
                  | which paralyzes needed efforts to convert
                  | retreat into advance. --Franklin D. Roosevelt


subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
So does anyone have any practical ideas to fix these "problems," or
should we just sit around wailing about how horrible it is that the
sexes are different?

--
 Sean Barrett     | The only thing we have to fear is fear itself--
 sean at epoptic.com | nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror
                  | which paralyzes needed efforts to convert
                  | retreat into advance. --Franklin D. Roosevelt


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Everything old is new again

body:
On 11/24/06, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
> I remember reading about 666, the Number of the Beast, in some book
> or another in the fifties, and thinking that was an interesting bit

[[The Number of the Beast (novel)]], by Heinlein?

Steve


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 23/11/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/11/06, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press
>
> > Oh, *marvellous*. I've always faffed about what to do with "can we use
> > your logo" OTRS queries.
>
>
> Yep! And if the editability of that page is a problem, [[Contact us]]
> on the foundation wiki now says "LOOK, JUST USE OUR LOGOS, OK?!"

Can we have a blanket blurb for "I'd like to use a screenshot of the
site", too? I understand that one's legally flakier due to it
containing content which is not ours, but a permission to use all the
bits of it which are ours and a reassuring remark about fair-use for
display purposes or somesuch...

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Guettarda

subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
On 11/22/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Puppy wrote:
> <snip>
> > This is not to say that improving and expanding such articles is not
> > desirable - after all, we wish to be the premier source of general
> > information on everything - but it is not due to gender bias, and to
> > imply that it is to me is reinforcing the
> > "woman-as-empty-headed-shallow-person".
>
> Actually, your argument here is serving /that/ purpose quite well.

WTF?  I don't know what's more wrong with that statement - its blatent
misogyny, or the fact that it's an empty-headed, shallow and just plain
incorrect statemen (quite unlike KC's carefully rational argument supported
by both anecdote and data)

OK, I'm convinced - time to go clean the kitchen so that I can actually get
my contribution to housework up to the 10% I think I do...


subject: [WikiEN-l] Google Earth screenshots

body:
On 23/11/06, Anthony <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:

> Just because something claims to be copyrighted doesn't mean it is.
>
> Much of Google Earth imagery *is* public domain.  Google has not added
> the necessary creativity to change this.

Unfortunately, most of what people want to use is high-res shots of
local areas, which are the bits (IME) most likely to be
honest-to-god-actually-copyrighted work as opposed to
USGS-with-a-label-on-it copyrighted...

> That said, it's much safer to just use NASA Worldwind.

It's a nicer-executed program, too ;-)

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
On 11/22/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Puppy wrote:
> <snip>
> > *GENDER BIAS IN STUDENT/TEACHER INTERACTIONS*
> >
>
> Obviously you're not aware of the problems surrounding males in
> education then, and how they're falling seriously behind their female
> peers.

That's true, but they still get more attention  - in fact, they get even
more attention from male teachers because there is concern about male
achievement.  I'm in a field which is overwhelmingly female at the undergrad
level, predominantly female at the grad student level, and predominantly
male at the tenured faculty level.  And it isn't because the demographics
have shifted recently, it's because of retention of women in grad school and
in academia beyond grad school.  And a large part of it has to do with the
fact that professors are more encouraging to male students and junior
faculty.  While the best students are usually female, it's the one male
student who performs well who gets most of the attention.  Of course, it's
also the male students who are socialised to take the initiative and chat
with the professors.

I've spent a lot of time in classroom situations, both as a student and as a
teacher.  Over the course of the semester you get to know certain groups of
students who you can chat with as you wander around the lab.  Somehow there
are always more knots of male students who talk to you than there are groups
of female students (the lab I teach is mostly non-majors, and it's about
even in terms of gender ratio).


subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
On 11/22/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> YHBT, YHL, HAND? No, that's not very constructive.
>
> The point that I was trying to get across was that this thread is
> pointless. I'm putting myself on moderation.

Actually it was a very interesting and informative thread until you came
along and started making misogynistic comments.  But good move on moderating
yourself (though it's always better to just shut up when you can't help but
be a bigot)


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
On Nov 24, 2006, at 9:50 AM, Sean Barrett wrote:

> So does anyone have any practical ideas to fix these "problems," or
> should we just sit around wailing about how horrible it is that the
> sexes are different?

As I said earlier, women obviously are doing something else which
they find more worthwhile. We should continue to have a welcoming
attitude, which I maintain we have as is shown by our enthusiasm in
advancing women to leadership positions. We should be on the lookout
for bias or other bad behavior towards women editors and do what we
can to mitigate its effects. I don't think women have significantly
less on-line access or that there is any significant technical
barrier to participation. Anyone is free to edit. I think this
conversation began by inquiring about the number of women candidates
for arbcom. Given our welcoming attitude most women who had edited
for at least a while would probably be elected, but if you are
working hard on your career or other absorbing activities you might
not volunteer.

Fred


subject: [WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

body:
On 11/23/06, Puppy <puppy at killerchihuahua.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> Are trends changing? Or are we looking at two different issues? The
> articles I linked focused specifically on how female students were
> treated as compared to how male students were treated - the self-esteem
> issue was only "suggested by some researchers" and would not affect the
> amount of attention given, questions, etc. The ratio of female to male
> in science and math was also examined, and the studies found fewer
> females. Computer use in one study was 3:1.
> From what you are linking here, it appears that overall however males
> are having difficulties. Is this a pendulum swing, or something else?

I think that both are true.  Boys do get a raw deal in a lot of ways - boys
have two options - either internalise the idea of how horrible they are and
be left with no positive ideas about their gender, or they can embrace how
horrible men are, and live up the stereotype.  Neither leaves much
self-esteem, which hurts them in school.

If
> males are having more trouble due to information being presented in a
> fashion calculated to appeal to, and be more easily comprehended, by
> females, this may be a factor. All of the studies I linked spoke of the
> importance of presenting material in a fashion which was more directed
> towards female learning patterns. This may be merely coincidence, and
> given the limited data there is no way to know - but it is an
> interesting possibility. If that is the case, then perhaps our
> male:female ratio of editors is not without benefit - articles will be
> more likely to be organized to appeal to the male pattern of learning
> and thinking. It would be helpful to know the causes of the behavior
> disorders. And once again, while interesting, I cannot see a way to
> directly correlate this to anything we do on WP.
> -kc-

I don't think that the decline in male performance has been due to shifts in
teaching styles.  At the university level there has been a movement away
from top-down lecturing (which works better with male students than with
female students) to more interactive, "cooperative learning"-based ideas,
which resonate better with female students.  But male students do well with
that as well - rather than favouring female learning over male learning,
what I have seen is a shift from something that favours male learning to
something that is less biased toward one gender or the other.  Now that
eliminates a large virtual advantage for males, but it doesn't explain the
decline in male performance academically in absolute terms.

As an undergrad I had an older, very male-biased professor, who used to
lament the decline in young men.  Of course, in a class of 25 majors there
were only 3 male students.  But his main complaint was that his daughterss
female friends were intelligent people who you could carry out a
conversation with, while their male friends were only capable of one-word
communications.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright Violation Bot

body:
James Hare stated for the record:
> The fact that people continually insert copyvios into articles is very
> distressing.

Absolutely true, but what is also distressing is the number of people
(*cough* Trekphiler *cough*) who cannot get their minds around the
concept that material explicitly released into the public domain
(*cough* DANFS *cough*) is not copyright-reserved and its credited use
is not plagiarism.

--
 Sean Barrett     | The only thing we have to fear is fear itself--
 sean at epoptic.com | nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror
                  | which paralyzes needed efforts to convert
                  | retreat into advance. --Franklin D. Roosevelt