from_name: sockmonk at gmail.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Don't call them "anon"

body:
On 11/2/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: steve v [mailto:vertigosteve at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:10 PM
> > To: English Wikipedia
> > Subject: Re: Article creation (was Re: [WikiEN-l] More fodder
> foryoureditcountitis)
> >
> >
> > I kind of agree with Charles in the sense that some
> > institution computers dont allow cookies to cache -
> > meaning all edits must be IP edits (dont use term
> > 'anon').
> >
> > It would be interesting to hear from the regular IP
> > community what their concerns are - anonymity,
> > caching, too busy to log in, dont care to have a web
> > ident, dont want to get personal, etc?
> >
> > SV
>
> I sympathize with this POV for two reasons:
>
> 1. Because Steve was recently taken down a peg (he lost his sysop
> rights) but he STILL is contributing to the encyclopedia and trying to
> find ways to improve the community.
>
> 2. Because Steve is right about the term 'anon'. Actually more than 95%
> of our contributors are anonymous. Choosing a recognizable pseudonym
> does not remove the mantle of anonymity; it just substitutes another.
>
> I'm sure no one means anything derogatory by saying 'anon' - it's just
> convenient shorthand for "non-logged in user". But it still can grate on
> the ears. It can offend, in the same way that Mark Twain's use of
> 'nigger' in his otherwise anti-slavery novel [[Huckleberry Finn]]
> offends. (The relationship of Huck and Jim clearly showed the moral
> superiority of an adult black man to an adolescent white boy. And Twain
> would not have put this in his novel, if he hadn't meant Southerners to
> take the point. It may even be one of the reasons that he moved up
> north, to Connecticut.)
>
> The marginalized, the downtrodden, the people with no formal education
> have a voice, and Wikipedia is listening to that voice. We are not
> storming the citadel of Academia by the gates, but we are (like bloggers
> rebutting TV networks and Matt Drudge scooping news magazines) LEVELING
> OUT the playing field. This is democracy in action.
>
> Uncle Ed
> Former Bureaucrat
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

If we shouldn't call them "anon" then what should we call them? It could be
worse. We could call them Anonymous Cowards like some forums do. The problem
I have with non-logged-in users is that when you find one (or several?)
engaging in edit wars or other anti-social behaviour, it's very difficult to
address them by name, let alone hold them accountable for their edits.
Particularly when the similar edits come from within a block of ip
addresses. Could be one person using different terminals on campus, or
getting different ip's via a dhcp server, or a group of separate people who
just 'look' the same.

--
Anonymous Coward


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [WikiEN-l] Try out the rating scheme

body:
Alphax wrote:
> Magnus Manske wrote:
> >> I'd like to add that *if* I'm wrong about this, someone flip a
> switch in
> >> LocalSettings to turn it off again. So, worst-case scenario is the
> >> servers getting slow for a few minutes.
> >>
>
> The servers just went slow, did you turn it on? :)
No, but I thought really hard about it :-)

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from_name: slimvirgin at gmail.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Err I've been blocked.

body:
Geni, I unblocked the autoblocker, but  do you need all the  other
!!!!!!!!! to be unblocked too?

Sarah

On 11/5/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> Finaly happened. You can stop cheering now
>
> Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "! ! ! !
> ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !". The reason given for
> ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
>
> I'm guessing the reason is something to do with this. Could someone
> kill the block?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Special:listuser
>
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Err I've been blocked.

body:
Ok, I did it anyway. The !!!!!!!!! account had been blocked four times
for some reason.

Sarah

On 11/5/05, slimvirgin at gmail.com <slimvirgin at gmail.com> wrote:
> Geni, I unblocked the autoblocker, but  do you need all the  other
> !!!!!!!!! to be unblocked too?
>
> Sarah
>
> On 11/5/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Finaly happened. You can stop cheering now
> >
> > Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "! ! ! !
> > ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !". The reason given for
> > ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
> >
> > I'm guessing the reason is something to do with this. Could someone
> > kill the block?
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Special:listuser
> >
> >
> > --
> > geni
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>


from_name: kermit blue

subject: [WikiEN-l] abusive blocking

body:
user Seancdaug is abusively deleting valid external links to 'Final Fantasy
video games' including a website that is referenced in the article. he
enlisted the help of an admin to block me from editing, in an abuse of that
power. i request other administrators to deal with this.


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Try out the rating scheme

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Magnus Manske wrote:
> Poor, Edmund W wrote:
>
>>If testing this new feature does NOT cause the servers to slow down
>>immediately, then there is no reason not to try it out. Someone had
>>claimed an immediate TRIPLING of access time, but Magnus says "I doubt
>>it will degrade performance in the initial phase", and I believe him.
>>
>>Magnus is one of the three people whom we all trust the most at
>>Wikipedia. If he says there's no risk in a live test of a new feature,
>>then I say there's no risk.
>>
>
> Thanks :-)
>
> I'd like to add that *if* I'm wrong about this, someone flip a switch in
> LocalSettings to turn it off again. So, worst-case scenario is the
> servers getting slow for a few minutes.
>

The servers just went slow, did you turn it on? :)

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Tim Starling

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Thoughts and measurments related to a new storage
 framework for large wikis.

body:
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> I'd like to propose a new framework for storage of archive versions. I
> will then back up this concept with some measurements.

Sounds good. If you're serious about coding this, then there's some
implementation details I'd like to discuss. Just stylistic, nothing
fundamental. Otherwise, I'd say go for it.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Err I've been blocked.

body:
Finaly happened. You can stop cheering now

Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "! ! ! !
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !". The reason given for
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

I'm guessing the reason is something to do with this. Could someone
kill the block?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Special:listuser

--
geni


from_name: Stefan Sittler

subject: [WikiEN-l] Try out the rating scheme

body:
On 11/6/05, Neil Harris <usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> Alphax wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA256
> >
> > Bryan Derksen wrote:
> >
> >> Magnus Manske wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Alphax wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> The servers just went slow, did you turn it on? :)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> No, but I thought really hard about it :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Aww. So once again, we go right up to the brink and then back off?
> >>
> >> Throw ze svitch!
> >>
> >
> > Seconded.
> >
> Go for it.
>
> -- Neil
You know what you doing---
For Great Quality!

>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Zlatiborian, again

body:
Well, for one, Serbian can use either Latin or Cyrillic alphabets,
while Zlatiborian has always used only the Cyrillic Alphabet.

Then, there are Zlatiborian unique words like "odma", or unique
grammatical forms like "svojijem", "Vikipedijinijem"...

There are also huge differences where there are two alternative ways
to say the same thing, that exist in both languages, but one is very
much more common in Zlatibor and the other is more common in Serbo.

ex. SC "ako smatrate da je...", Z "ako mislite da je...", SC
"iskorisceni" = Z "upotrijebljeni", S "pisete" Z "pisati".

There is also some Zlatiborian grammatical forms, which are real in
Serbocroatian, but are different in which form they represent: SC
"citate" - Z "citati"...

I would go on, but I think it would be better if you asked a real
Zlatiborian like George.

Mark

On 06/11/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Milos Rancic wrote:
> > On 11/6/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >>The Zlatiborian language is not a hoax. It is the independent language
> >>of a glorious peoples with a long and proud history.
> >
> >
> > This is not a hoax for you because you are a fool. And you are working
> > hard to spread disinformation.
> >
>
> Ah, so the people who deleted all the articles about it on the English
> wikipedia as "hoaxes" were wrong then! Well! Better get them undeleted!
> I look forward to reading about the differences between Zlatiborian,
> Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian, as well as the long-established
> Zlatiborian literature!
>
> - --
> Alphax                      |   /"\
> Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
> OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
> http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: Amruta Lonkar

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Whihc php file called

body:
I have a few doubts about the flow of code once the user clicks
save/preview/show diff buttons.

I have made changes to our locally installed wiki
1)Added a reference button in the edit toolbar which when clicked pulls up a
pop up where the user can enter reference information. Once user cliks submit
in this form the information gets entered to the reference table in wikidb.

What i need to understand is, how should i proceed when user clicks eithr the
save/preview button. I have a slight idea that only after user clicks save
page, information should get entered to the  referencelinks table which is a
replica of the imagelinks table.

I cannot figure out at what point and where in the code i can add information
to the referencelinks table. Or should this be done when user clicks the
preview page button?

I appreciate your time and help.

Amruta

Quoting Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au>:

> Amruta Lonkar wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am trying to find whihc function is called when user hits the save button
> on
> > edit page and in whihc file the button click for save is checked.
> >
> > Any help appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > Amruta
>
> Article::save(), in Article.php. Submitting the form generates a POST
> request to index.php with action=save in the query string. This action is
> dispatched to the Article object.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
Amruta


from_name: Milos Rancic

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Zlatiborian, again

body:
On 11/6/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Now, Mark supports creation of Zlatiborian Wikipedia.
>
> Yes. You and your Serbian nationalist crew have been repressing the
> Zlatiborian national identity for far too long. As you can find in
> many credible sources, Zlatiborian is an independent language with an
> independent history, spoken by the proud people of Mt Zlatibor, whose
> history is glorious and decidedly separate from that of Serbia.

Mark, you are completely fool. There are no repression against
Zlatiborians because there are no Zlatiborians (except in regional
sense). Note that I am an anarchist.

> > And people on Meta thinks that the situation with Zlatiborian and
> > Montenegrin is similar.
>
> The only difference is that Montenegro has some degree of political
> autonomy, whereas Serbian oppression continues to this day in
> Zlatibor. I think it is high time you quit trying so hard to repress
> the collective Zlatiborian national identity, and allow Zlatiborians
> their Wikipedia in peace.

No. Again, you think that you know a lot because you were talking with
another fool who doesn't like Serbian Wikipedia.

Note that this person (and the only person, I would ask for checking
for sock puppets), Djordje Bozovic wrote about Montenegrin language on
Serbian Wikipedia like strong Serbian nationalist.

> > If people from community want to support hoaxes, I completely agree.
> > If the relevancy of Wikipedia is not important for them, what should I
> > do? Just to keep relevancy on Serbian and/or to work on some more
> > relevant project.
>
> The Zlatiborian language is not a hoax. It is the independent language
> of a glorious peoples with a long and proud history.

This is not a hoax for you because you are a fool. And you are working
hard to spread disinformation.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
On 11/5/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > I was thinking and I can say that I am not oppose to creation of
> > Zlatiborian Wikipedia no articles about "Zlatiborian language" on
> > English Wikipedia.
>
> I can't make sense of this sentence. What does it mean?

no=nor

> > If people from community want to support hoaxes, I completely agree.
>
> I'm beginning to think that Zlatiborian may be to Serbian as Scots (sco)
> is to English and Plattd??tsch (nds) and Alemannic (als) are to German:
> commonly considered dialects rather than separate languages, and without
> an official orthography.

I am too tiered to talk about Zlatiborian anymore. I understand that
people can believe into hoaxes and I don't have anything against
making Zlatiborian Wikipedia.

If you want to support jokes, support it.

If WMF supports such kind of hoaxes, WM SCG would not be the part of
WMF (yes, we would find some other name). And not because of any
"nationalist feeling" but because it seems that it is more important
what two fools say the what a number of other reasonable people,
including experts. In this sense, Wikipedia is just a joke for
exporting all kinds of personal frustrations. Do it without us.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
BTW, two fools are Mark and Djordje, not Timwi :)

On 11/6/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at mutualaid.org> wrote:
> On 11/5/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I was thinking and I can say that I am not oppose to creation of
> > > Zlatiborian Wikipedia no articles about "Zlatiborian language" on
> > > English Wikipedia.
> >
> > I can't make sense of this sentence. What does it mean?
>
> no=nor
>
> > > If people from community want to support hoaxes, I completely agree.
> >
> > I'm beginning to think that Zlatiborian may be to Serbian as Scots (sco)
> > is to English and Plattd??tsch (nds) and Alemannic (als) are to German:
> > commonly considered dialects rather than separate languages, and without
> > an official orthography.
>
> I am too tiered to talk about Zlatiborian anymore. I understand that
> people can believe into hoaxes and I don't have anything against
> making Zlatiborian Wikipedia.
>
> If you want to support jokes, support it.
>
> If WMF supports such kind of hoaxes, WM SCG would not be the part of
> WMF (yes, we would find some other name). And not because of any
> "nationalist feeling" but because it seems that it is more important
> what two fools say the what a number of other reasonable people,
> including experts. In this sense, Wikipedia is just a joke for
> exporting all kinds of personal frustrations. Do it without us.
>


from_name: John Ky

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: One wiki, multiple websites

body:
Hello again,

I sort of got this working except I am having a terrible cache problem:

Pages saved from one website are visible from the other website, which
is fine - however, the links on those pages will goto the website from
which the page was saved rather than the website from which the page
was viewed.

Can I turn page caching off altogether?

-John

On 11/5/05, John Ky <newhoggy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I want to setup up a number of websites which share a single
> wiki underneath.  The only difference between the websites
> will be:
>
> * The URI used to access the website
> * The main page
> * The navigation links
>
> For instance:
>
> I want to be able to have two websites with the following
> navigation links:
>
> marrickville.community.org:
>   Main page -> Marrickville community
>   News -> News at Marrickville
>   Events -> Events at Marrickville
>
> bankstown.community.org:
>   Main page -> Bankstown community
>   News -> News at Bankstown
>   Events -> Events at Bankstown
>
> But, I want both websites to use the same wiki, so that they can
> share pages, and have the same sign on.
>
> Is it possible, and how much work is involved in configuring
> such a wiki?
>
> Thanks
>
> -John
>


list: foundation-l

from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews is giving out press credentials

body:
Who gave the Wikinews community persmission to give out press credentials to
its users? This is a major abuse of the Wikinews trademark and could put the
foundation in legal jeopardy or at least subject it to bad press if one of the
credentialed users abuse the Wikinews name to gain access they should not be
granted.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Credential_verification

Nobody on that list has the right to use the Wikinews or Wikimedia trademarks
in a way that would suggest any official status to the passes. Thus those names
and logos can not be used on the passes without either Foundation or a local
chapter approval and oversight.

Either the foundation should officially get involved with handing out
credentials, or the nonsense going on at Wikinews should stop.

-- mav

__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


list: wikimedia-l


body:
Hi again,

I think I worked out how to turn off page caching.  Everything seems
to be working now.

Would it be possible for me to submit a patch with my changes?

It involves replacing some occurances of 'mainpage' with $wgMainpage
and 'sidebar' with $wgSidebar, and then adding the sensible defaults
to DefaultSettings.php.

This will allow me to reconfigure $wgMainpage to 'Bankstown community'
on one website and 'Marrickville community on another website, while
reusing the same wiki.

The change would have no effect behaviour of mediawiki unless the user
explicitly decides to change it from LocalSettings.php

Thanks

-John

On 11/6/05, John Ky <newhoggy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello again,
>
> I sort of got this working except I am having a terrible cache problem:
>
> Pages saved from one website are visible from the other website, which
> is fine - however, the links on those pages will goto the website from
> which the page was saved rather than the website from which the page
> was viewed.
>
> Can I turn page caching off altogether?
>
> -John
>
> On 11/5/05, John Ky <newhoggy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I want to setup up a number of websites which share a single
> > wiki underneath.  The only difference between the websites
> > will be:
> >
> > * The URI used to access the website
> > * The main page
> > * The navigation links
> >
> > For instance:
> >
> > I want to be able to have two websites with the following
> > navigation links:
> >
> > marrickville.community.org:
> >   Main page -> Marrickville community
> >   News -> News at Marrickville
> >   Events -> Events at Marrickville
> >
> > bankstown.community.org:
> >   Main page -> Bankstown community
> >   News -> News at Bankstown
> >   Events -> Events at Bankstown
> >
> > But, I want both websites to use the same wiki, so that they can
> > share pages, and have the same sign on.
> >
> > Is it possible, and how much work is involved in configuring
> > such a wiki?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > -John
> >
>


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [WikiEN-l] Try out the rating scheme

body:
Alphax wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Bryan Derksen wrote:
>
>> Magnus Manske wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Alphax wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The servers just went slow, did you turn it on? :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> No, but I thought really hard about it :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Aww. So once again, we go right up to the brink and then back off?
>>
>> Throw ze svitch!
>>
>
> Seconded.
>
Go for it.

-- Neil


subject: [WikiEN-l] Don't call them "anon"

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

sockmonk at gmail.com wrote:
<snip>
> If we shouldn't call them "anon" then what should we call them? It could be
> worse. We could call them Anonymous Cowards like some forums do. The problem
> I have with non-logged-in users is that when you find one (or several?)
> engaging in edit wars or other anti-social behaviour, it's very difficult to
> address them by name, let alone hold them accountable for their edits.
> Particularly when the similar edits come from within a block of ip
> addresses. Could be one person using different terminals on campus, or
> getting different ip's via a dhcp server, or a group of separate people who
> just 'look' the same.
>

Increasingly I've seen email addresses being used as usernames, which is
probably a VERY BAD IDEA given how widely mirrored our content is (check
out #wikipedia-en-newusers on freenode sometime). Is this some kind of
bug in the software, where the registration form is taking the email
address (if given) and using that as the username, or are the
instructions not clear enough on the login form?

And yes, I agree with all of the above points about telling one IP
editor (for lack of a better term) from another.

And no, we shouldn't go down the path that Livejournal and others have
taken of "only registered users can comment", because then we will get
10,000,000 "registered user" with one edit each, because people will be
making throwaway accounts just so they can fix a typo.

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Zlatiborian, again

body:
We are probabbly off of Wikimedia. Today we would talk about making
friendly organization, not Wikimedia SCG.

On 11/6/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Milos Rancic wrote:
> > On 11/6/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >>The Zlatiborian language is not a hoax. It is the independent language
> >>of a glorious peoples with a long and proud history.
> >
> >
> > This is not a hoax for you because you are a fool. And you are working
> > hard to spread disinformation.
> >
>
> Ah, so the people who deleted all the articles about it on the English
> wikipedia as "hoaxes" were wrong then! Well! Better get them undeleted!
> I look forward to reading about the differences between Zlatiborian,
> Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian, as well as the long-established
> Zlatiborian literature!
>
> - --
> Alphax                      |   /"\
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> OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
> http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3-cvs (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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> =XjaJ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
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>


from_name: Gerrit Holl

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Nevertheless, I don't care that they exist. I think a "playground" can
> help increase productivity in the serious projects, but even if it
> doesn't, a humorous joke encyclopedia is a productive endeavour too.

Allemannisch is not a dialect.

Gerrit.

--
Temperature in Lule?, Norrbotten, Sweden:
| Current temperature   05-11-06 13:59:48   -1.5 degrees Celsius ( 29.3F) |
--
Det finns inte d?ligt v?der, bara d?liga kl?der.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

references:
<2505d1590511050502n10a523e3hd8ecb9ab39e9c597@mail.gmail.com>
	<dkicc5$9k2$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20051106130705.GA23712@topjaklont.student.utwente.nl>
	<dkl855$cv3$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20051106175928.GB26988@topjaklont.student.utwente.nl>
	<dkltl4$65c$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
...linguistically, it's not entirely meaningless.

Sociolinguistically, it means quite a bit -- "dialect" vs "language"
is a very interesting part of sociolinguistics -- who considers their
own speech a dialect, and who considers the speech of others as a
dialect? Is it correlated at all with cognation percentages or other
more concrete measurements of similarity? Are people who speak a
"language" likely to have better attitudes about their speech than
people who speak a "dialect"? Are people who are branded as speakers
of a "dialect" by others, but claim themselves to speak a "language",
likely to be more fiercely independent?

Outside of sociolinguistics, "dialect" does have some degree of
meaning. It's defined in the strictest sense as "a regional variety of
a language". Of course, if one were to try to separate all of the
speech varieties of the world into dialects and languages, that
division wouldn't much help.

So many people like to try to assign arbitrary divisions based on
lexicostatistics. Nationalists will try to set it so that their own
variety is a "language"; most linguists would set it somewhere between
70% and 90% cognate. Now, there are "languages" with more than 90%
cognation, such as Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian, Bokm?l-Danish... and
there are "dialects" with less than 70% cognation, such as some of the
Sinitic languages, some "dialects" of German, Italian, and French,
some Berber "dialects", etc.

Mark

On 06/11/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> We all know that the difference between "dialect" and "language" is a
> political one, and linguistically meaningless. That Allemannic is
> *widely considered* a dialect, at least in Germany, is indisputable.
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: check user policy/Tor

body:
On 11/5/05, Amgine <amgine at saewyc.net> wrote:
>
> > Wiki projects do not need to know my IP address, and I'm not going to
> > provide it. If you don't want my edits under those conditions, it's your
> > loss
>
> I agree entirely with this statement. When I compare (anecdotally) the
> cost of accepting Tor edits with their benefit, the cost far outweighs
> any gain.

Unless you are using the CheckUser tool inappropriately, you have no way to
compare, even acecdotally, the costs and benefits of edits made through Tor.
This is because a number of the edits made using Tor are by logged in users.
I doubt the data is even available to know what percentage of edits made
using Tor are by logged in users.

Should users be able to edit using Tor without logging in? I'd say yes, and
these edits should simply be marked as edits made using Tor, so that they
can easily be examined and reverted. (Additionally, these edits could be
blocked for short periods of time during times of actual attacks). But this
is a completely different question as to whether or not logged in and long
established users shoudl be able to edit using Tor.

What threshold should we set for this? Personally I'd put it as low as 10
article edits over the course of a week. If you manage to make ten
article-space edits over the course of a week without getting yourself
blocked, I think you should be able to edit using any IP address, even
blocked ones, as long as you yourself are not blocked. If you then start
using the account to vandalize, it's easy to block you. If we get a lot of
vandals making 10 good edits over the course of a week and then making a few
vandalizing edits and getting themselves blocked, I'd say the benefits
outweigh the costs. That said, I could see an argument for a slightly higher
standard. Even if it's 100 edits over the course of 3 months I think it's
worth it.

Right now, as I've said, even admins can't edit using Tor IP addresses
without first unblocking those IP addresses.

I would not easily suggest limiting any source of positive
> contributions, but anonymizing hosts are not a net positive; quite the
> opposite. We should not need to know your IP, but by insuring we cannot
> know your IP you also add yourself to a class of users who are not
> beneficial to the Wikimedia projects. This is an opt-in situation for
> you, and Wikimedia has no ability to separate you from the spammers and
> vandals who likewise prevent us from knowing their IP.

But Wikimedia *does* have the ability to separate me from the spammers and
vandals who also use that IP. I've made over ten thousand edits over the
course of years. My account is clearly not a throwaway account made solely
for the purpose of spam or vandalism. If you don't want me to edit, then
block me, not my IP address.

Anonymizers should not be considered a problem, but rather a very useful
> identifying tool. Make their anonymity a feature, rather than a drawback.
>
> Amgine


from_name: candy

subject: [Wikitech-l] Adding a new tab

body:
Hi ,

  Does anyone has any idea as to how to add a new tab to the existing
tabs (article,discussion,edit and history) to the wikipedia page.I have
the mediawiki installed and the database dump imported. Now i wana tweak
and make additions to wikipedia. I have very little idea of php but am
ready to learn the advance concepts as the need may arise.

candy


subject: [WikiEN-l] Try out the rating scheme

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Bryan Derksen wrote:
> Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>> Alphax wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The servers just went slow, did you turn it on? :)
>>>
>>
>> No, but I thought really hard about it :-)
>>
>>
> Aww. So once again, we go right up to the brink and then back off?
>
> Throw ze svitch!

Seconded.

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.3-cvs (MingW32)
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from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
Gerrit Holl wrote:
> Timwi wrote:
>
>>Nevertheless, I don't care that they exist. I think a "playground" can
>>help increase productivity in the serious projects, but even if it
>>doesn't, a humorous joke encyclopedia is a productive endeavour too.
>
> Allemannisch is not a dialect.

What was the purpose of that message?


from_name: SJ

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Stevertigo's RFA or whatever trigram

body:
On 11/6/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I give it 48 hours without doing anything, and if
> >>> there is no clarification by then, I will revert to
> >>> the previous stable situation (ie, Steve sysop) till
> >>> an agreement is reached between yourselves.
> >>>
> >>> Ant

"revert to the previous stable situation" seems exactly right in this
case, until another decision is passed.  Thanks for your care about
this, Anthere.

++SJ


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Status of Serbia and Montenegro chapter

body:
Oh, come on, that is ridiculous.

It's not as if the Board voted to accept a Zlatiborian Wikipedia.

Just because there is a proposal, and a handful of people support it,
that's a really bad reason to threaten such a thing.

And don't tell me this isn't a threat -- it very clearly is. You're
hoping that by doing this, somebody "official" will get worried and
intervene re: Zlatiborian.

That's very... well, it's not a nice tactic.

If you guys decide not to participate in Wikimedia, then perhaps you
should remove your votes from Requests_for_new_languages? You can't
have it both ways, man.

Mark

On 06/11/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at mutualaid.org> wrote:
> Here are some conclusions according to recent events (questionable
> reliability of Wikimedian projects) and to meeting of the part of
> members of Initiative for Wikimedia Serbia and Montegro:
>
> 1. As the part of Wikimedian community supports hoaxes (i.e.
> "Zlatiborian language") we are considered that such cases (not only
> related to Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian languages area) can make
> completely damage to relevancy of Wikimedia and her projects.
>
> 2. We completely understand that Wikimedian projects are not only WMF
> Board's projects, but the projects of Wikimedian community. According
> to that, we worry that recent events are not isolated cases, but the
> important rule in Wikimedian community. Because of that we understand
> that our involvement, as organization in the future, in Wikimedian
> project assumes that we support such kinds of scientific and social
> irresponsibilities. And we are not ready to do that.
>
> 3. Only because of the fact that our meeting was just the meeting of
> the part of Initiative for WM SCG, we didn't make any decision. As we
> would have Founding Assembly in two weeks, as our first meeting with
> full number of members from now, we would make decision then.
>
> 4. Decisions can be: (1) We would a "full" local chapter (i.e., like
> German Chapter is) with the name "Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro" or
> (2) we would not be a "full" local chapter, but only a friendly
> organization which can behave like an Wikimedian local chapter (with
> different name then "Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro").
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


body:
On 11/6/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Incidently, all this suggest to me that once in a while, you should
> consider having a "confirmation" round for sysops... even though
> admittedly, the sysop number is terribly huge...
>
> Ant

Not really. It would not have prevented the current situation. Untill
the issue that triggered the case there wasn't much that Stevertigo
had done that could be objected to. I doubt netaholics stament would
have been enough to have any real effect.

--
geni


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
Alphax wrote:

>GerardM wrote:
>
>
>>Hoi,
>>A language is a dialect with an army.
>>
>>
>I thought it was a navy! :)
>
That would mean that mountain people could not have their own language.

Ec


body:
The whole reason this is so ridiculous is that you are threatening to
remove your status simply b/c of this one thing.

Mark

On 06/11/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at mutualaid.org> wrote:
> Mark, please read what Djordje wrote today on Serbian vilage pump:
> http://sr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0%3A%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B3%2F%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0&diff=139037&oldid=138995
>
> If you don't know Serbian (nor "Zlatiborian"), I am sure that you can
> find someone to translate it.
>
> On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Oh, come on, that is ridiculous.
> >
> > It's not as if the Board voted to accept a Zlatiborian Wikipedia.
>
> No, we understand it. This is the community decision and we are worry
> about the future of such proposals and possible accepting of them.
>
> > Just because there is a proposal, and a handful of people support it,
> > that's a really bad reason to threaten such a thing.
> >
> > And don't tell me this isn't a threat -- it very clearly is. You're
> > hoping that by doing this, somebody "official" will get worried and
> > intervene re: Zlatiborian.
> >
> > That's very... well, it's not a nice tactic.
>
> No, we started some process and it is not easy to stop it. Almost for
> sure we would not be officially related with other local chapters and
> WMF.
>
> > If you guys decide not to participate in Wikimedia, then perhaps you
> > should remove your votes from Requests_for_new_languages? You can't
> > have it both ways, man.
>
> We would continue to work on Wikipedia, this is not the issue. As
> Wikipedians, we have the right to vote about it.
>
> But, you are right in some way. We would talk about this voting soon
> and maybe remove our votes. There is no sense to tolerate insults from
> you and similar people. But, this is WikiPedian decision and this not
> related to local chapter issues.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: list_ob at gmx.net

subject: [Wikitech-l] PATH_INFO can also work with PHP as CGI

body:
Hi,

the hosting service I'm using has PHP as CGI, and supports pathinfo.

But there are several places in MediaWiki saying/assuming PATH_INFO
does not work in CGI-based configurations.

Anything I missed?

If not, the detection of the server capabilities should be improved.

At least, there should be a wgUsePathInfo entry in LocalSettings.php
along with some explanation.

Oliver
--
Oliver Betz, Muenchen (oliverbetz.de)


from_name: Anthere

body:
Jtkiefer wrote:

> Anthere wrote:
>
>> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RFA/SV, I have restored
>> Stevertigo sysop status.
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>> Ant
>>
>>
>>
>> Anthere wrote:
>>
>>> Dear fellow wikipedians,
>>>
>>> Yesterday, stewards received a request to unsysop
>>> Stevertigo, after a failed reconfirmation of
>>> sysophood, following an arbcom decision.
>>>
>>> Jtkiefer also asked me privately by irc to carry on
>>> the request.
>>>
>>> I consequently unsyoped Stevertigo.
>>>
>>> Today, Steve post on my talk page, this comment :
>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anthere#Request_for_permissions
>>>
>>> As a reminder, stewards are not here to judge, but to
>>> carry on the decision of the community. I have no idea
>>> why Steve was brought in front of the arbcom (well,
>>> right, it is a 3RR issue, but I do not know the
>>> details, and I do not want to get in this).
>>>
>>> Now, I think in this case, the "judges" are
>>> * the arbcom
>>> * the voting community
>>>
>>> And the steward is just to carry on the decision the
>>> "judges" made.
>>>
>>> If there is something unclear in the final decision,
>>> it should not be my job to go reading all the
>>> discussions around this case, so as to figure out
>>> myself the "correct" conclusion. I think Stevertigo is
>>> a honest editor, and he would not try to cheat on the
>>> decision, so if he feels the outcome has not been
>>> fair/clear, it is probable that there is a little
>>> something unclear somewhere.
>>>
>>> So, what I would like you to do, is to clarify the
>>> current situation, so that the correct decision, to
>>> desysop or not to desysop, is taken.
>>>
>>> I give it 48 hours without doing anything, and if
>>> there is no clarification by then, I will revert to
>>> the previous stable situation (ie, Steve sysop) till
>>> an agreement is reached between yourselves.
>>>
>>> Ant
>>
>>
> Not that I'm arguing with this or anything and I think that this is
> probably is fine  (at least until arbcom makes a decision) I figured
> that was going to stay desysopped until either RFA and then I guess now
> arbcom decided in favor of him.  I also don't see the justification of
> as per WP:RFA/SV since the vast consensus of all who didn't vote to put
> back to arbcom were to keep him desysopped.
>
> -Jtkiefer

I understand your point of view Jtkiefer.

Now, I went back to the voting page, and saw this comment from Theresa.

This vote has been closed early by Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke). The
case will go back to the Arbitration committee.

For me, that means the case is back to the situation BEFORE the arbcom
took a decision. So, it should logically be the same for Steve status,
ie, sysop.

Now, to be fair, it seems many people now do not really trust Steve any
more to be a sysop. However, Steve has also been a contributor for a
long time, is a mediator and certainly do not qualify as a vandal. So, I
think we should trust him with sysop power until the arbcom has taken a
new decision. If Steve was acting as a wildman, I would not have
restored the status to its original situation. I just think there is no
urgency. I would feel embarassed to let the status removed, because that
would mean I take the decision instead of the arbcom somehow.

Incidently, all this suggest to me that once in a while, you should
consider having a "confirmation" round for sysops... even though
admittedly, the sysop number is terribly huge...

Ant


body:
> You didn't read Djordje's edit?

Yes, but I'm not sure it's relevant.

> On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The whole reason this is so ridiculous is that you are threatening to
> > remove your status simply b/c of this one thing.
>
> No, this is important issue. Djordje is not dangerous person when we
> are talking about realiability of Wikipedia, but you are very
> dangerous, as well as people similar to you.

...

And I would say you are just as dangerous. You seek to further your
anti-Zlatiborian agenda by attacking the Zlatiborian cause and
pretending that the glorious Zlatiborian language doesn't even exist!

> Without _any_ knowledge about situation (nor political nor
> linguistic), you are ready to believe in reasonable explained hoaxes.
> And this would not be the problem if you keep this for yourself. It
> becomes the big problem when you start to advocate for such things.

"Without any knowledge about situation"... that sounds like somebody
who's being bitter because I disagree with them. Did you evaluate
*all* of the possibilities? Is it really reasonable to assume that,
just because I support the creation of a Zlatiborian Wikipedia, that I
have 0 knowledge about the situation? After all, Danka, SellackAlex,
and others supported it... does that mean they have 0 knowledge??

> Note that I voted for opening Cantonese Wikipedia only because you and
> one person more explained that there is different writing system. As I

Yes, and we provided huge amounts of detail. There are articles we
provided which explain it even further. All you said was things like
"Zlatiborian is the same as Serbian" or "Zlatiborian is a dialect" or
whatever. No detailed explanations or demonstrations... so far, the
Zlatiborians have demonstrated their claims more than you have
demonstrated yours. Not only did they show some key differences
between Zlatiborian and Serbian, but they started a test Wikipedia in
their beautiful language. They have provided translations to me from
Serbian, from which I can see the differences and confirm that
Zlatiborian is indeed different to Serbian.

Now, if you expect me to believe what you're saying, you need to
demonstrate your case further, which so far you have not done
whatsoever.

> don't know anything about linguistic situation in China, I trusted to
> both of you and considered that people who were opposing -- are
> Chinese nationalists. When I make relation between this case and
> Zlatiborian case, I am afraid that I voted for another hoax. Am I
> right?

No, you're wrong. The difference is that even people WITHIN China has
voted "for" the creation. The vast majority of voters still support a
Cantonese Wikipedia. This would not happen for a hoax.

> And what about some Nigerian villages or ten names for one language in India?

Some Nigerian villages *do* have their own languages. Ten names for
one language... that's strange, you don't create different WPs for
names. Even if you consider Zlatiborian an *accent*, as some Serbian
nationalist extremists and other anti-Zlatiborists seem to, it is more
than a "name" for Serbian.

> So, this is the issue of scientific competency of Wikimedian projects.
> If we officially recognize that we are the part of that, we officially
> recognize such cases like "Zlatiborian Wikipedia".

Uhh... perhaps it would be better to consider these actions if and
when a Zlatiborian Wikipedia is created, rather than saying "OMG
people are discussing it!!! And the majority have voted against!!! The
sky is falling!!! FEAR! ABORT MISSION!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH"

> And I don't want to be in conversation like:
>
> Me: There are more then 100 different language editions of Wikipedia!
> Someone: And how many of them are Zlatiborian?
>
> I don't want to be the part of scientific non-relevant project. This
> is not the issue of Zlatiborian.

Uhh... it seems to me like it is. Now, if the majority votes against a
ZB.WP in the end, there is absolutely 0 reason for you to continue
with this action. Sure, if the majority votes *for* it, you may lose
all hope in humanity.

> Note, also, that Djordje is bureaucrat on Serbian Wikipedia.

Yes, and Walter van Kalken is a sysop on the Thai WP. Yet, Dutch is
not a dialect of Thai... being a B.C or S.O on a Wikipedia, does not
mean it's your native language.

Mark

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: Felipe Ortega

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Thoughts and measurments related to a new storage
	framework for large wikis.

body:
 --- Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> escribi?:

>
> Well part of the challenge there is that the output
> files are quite
> small... and most filesystems stink at efficiently
> storing small file.
>
> Actually, what I might implement at first is a read
> only archive
> retriever that latches to a mmaped file, you ask it
> for an object, it
> goes and builds it from the archive and hands it
> back... It's the sort
> of thing we could drop in to take care of serving up
> old versions
> without really redesigning anything.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

Well, to some extent I agree with you in that small
files put filesystems in a squeeze. My reasoning was
made in a parallel level: version reconstruction.

If I understood well, when somebody requets a previous
version for a certain article, you should go back on
to the tree of deltas until you reach that precise
version, then go forward again to generate the
requested page (and btw all the "middle" versions
too).

As far as I know, thats the precise task of version
control systems (is also Xdelta a version control). I
only wonder if, in some way, we want to reinvent the
wheel doing the same job but in a DB+cache
framework...

Finally, a couple of questions about two points I'm
afraid I didn't got quite well:

1.- What's the meaning of marking as 'second from top'
  the current version of the article in the DB?

2.- Why does the system store all the "middle
versions" in cache when it resolves a request for a
non-current version? I can't see the utility of this
behaviour.

PD. Nevertheless, I find your idea quite interesting.
I will be happy if I could collaborate in some way to
implement it...

______________________________________________
Renovamos el Correo Yahoo!
Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad
http://correo.yahoo.es


from_name: Habj

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Translations between different wikipedias, and GFDL

body:
According to GFDL, one must always state what work under GFDL the present
work is based on. Is this true also for translations between different
wikipedias? I have heard both "yes" and "no" stated as an answer to this.

/habj


from_name: Jack Lynch

body:
I wish SV hadn't acted the way he did, and that he would apologise for
it. IMO he should be de-sysopped, but I would also vote to have his
status restored after a couple of months, if he made it clear he
wouldn't behave similarly in the future. He's a good member of the
community, even if he acted rather badly in this particular.

No one should be above the rules, but the most important thing is the
message that is sent to lay users regarding admin misconduct, and how
he plans to conduct himself in the future.

Jack


body:
Habj wrote:
> According to GFDL, one must always state what work under GFDL the present
> work is based on. Is this true also for translations between different
> wikipedias? I have heard both "yes" and "no" stated as an answer to this.

If I take that literally, article revision N should always explicitly
state that it's based on article revision (N-1), or does it?

Gerrit.

--
Temperature in Lule?, Norrbotten, Sweden:
| Current temperature   05-11-06 18:49:57   -1.7 degrees Celsius ( 28.9F) |
--
Det finns inte d?ligt v?der, bara d?liga kl?der.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

references:
<2505d1590511050502n10a523e3hd8ecb9ab39e9c597@mail.gmail.com>
	<dkicc5$9k2$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20051106130705.GA23712@topjaklont.student.utwente.nl>
	<dkl855$cv3$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Gerrit Holl wrote:
> >Timwi wrote:
> >>Nevertheless, I don't care that they exist. I think a "playground" can
> >>help increase productivity in the serious projects, but even if it
> >>doesn't, a humorous joke encyclopedia is a productive endeavour too.
> >
> >Allemannisch is not a dialect.
>
> What was the purpose of that message?

I don't think als: is a playground for dialectal silliness, perhaps for
language-silliness but that's not the same.

Gerrit.

--
Temperature in Lule?, Norrbotten, Sweden:
| Current temperature   05-11-06 18:49:57   -1.7 degrees Celsius ( 28.9F) |
--
Det finns inte d?ligt v?der, bara d?liga kl?der.


from_name: Delirium

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>Nobody on that list has the right to use the Wikinews or Wikimedia trademarks
>in a way that would suggest any official status to the passes. Thus those names
>and logos can not be used on the passes without either Foundation or a local
>chapter approval and oversight.
>
>
What trademark violation is going on here?  Trademark law only prohibits
commercial use of a trademark for a competing product in the same
market.  It is hard to see what the competing product is, since these
people /are/ the ones creating Wikinews, and it is also hard to see what
the commercial use is.

If I were to make up a nametag calling myself "Wikipedia Administrator",
using the Wikipedia logo, this would not be a trademark violation,
because it is factually correct, noncommercial, and noncompeting.

-Mark


from_name: Chris Jenkinson

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> [...]

Please don't start new threads for discussion by replying to existing
emails and changing the subject, as the headers are still preserved
which causes the email to appear, in some email clients, as a reply to
the previous thread. This is very annoying, as you can imagine.

Thanks,
Chris


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Example to illustrate a principle. Milos tried to demonstrate that
Djordje's native language must be Serbian because he is a bureaucrat
at the Serbian Wikipedia, which is obviously pure Wednesday*.

Mark

*See Juanes -- La Camisa Negra.

On 06/11/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
> >Yes, and Walter van Kalken is a sysop on the Thai WP. Yet, Dutch is
> >not a dialect of Thai... being a B.C or S.O on a Wikipedia, does not
> >mean it's your native language.
> >
> HUH? what do I have to do with this discussion?
>
> Walter/Waerth
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
Was it not you who was arguing for Alemannic linguistic independence?

Alemannic is, after all, the most widely-spoken language in Switzerland.

Mark

On 06/11/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Ray Saintonge wrote:
> > Alphax wrote:
> >
> >> GerardM wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hoi,
> >>> A language is a dialect with an army.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I thought it was a navy! :)
> >>
> > That would mean that mountain people could not have their own language.
> >
>
> Well, is there such a thing as a "Swiss Lanuage"? No! They speak French,
> German and/or Italian, depending on which part of Switzerland they are
> from! :)
>
> - --
> Alphax                      |   /"\
> Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
> OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
> http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3-cvs (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iQEVAwUBQ27PEbMAAH8MeUlWAQgeFggAjhq4fOcjuWmNJlIzkQfaCXw9aG0+d7Pw
> f3CiMOwBym1i7scK7J3y2B6ZkmmZ+BPP36kIkTcX4PX2OTTF2oK94dxcIwKaUHnQ
> x7H7y+ORQz26Rr3Ckm/RGqd1kNt2BCKXiM4L7zEEau+zPpb+6Frk0f4F7TeHxUkR
> dQMlsFTG8TTPc1/mSb022z/Qa9YyI8z5KXORF2OH0wm+KocWW190oO9oE3cS2Dst
> dyodpIjVRpqJmaCxplH66v3OhAkHPJ7Peb3Zkgug2TGj5Xxh7kHn41gf603e5gQA
> IoUNUIN4Uee9H727E3lxnHmumSHprDDi5ZyIZKmLRkE9DDiTDhBhNQ==
> =yBiM
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
Gerrit Holl wrote:
> Timwi wrote:
>
>>Gerrit Holl wrote:
>>
>>>Timwi wrote:
>>>
>>>>Nevertheless, I don't care that they exist. I think a "playground" can
>>>>help increase productivity in the serious projects, but even if it
>>>>doesn't, a humorous joke encyclopedia is a productive endeavour too.
>>>
>>>Allemannisch is not a dialect.
>>
>>What was the purpose of that message?
>
> I don't think als: is a playground for dialectal silliness, perhaps for
> language-silliness but that's not the same.

We all know that the difference between "dialect" and "language" is a
political one, and linguistically meaningless. That Allemannic is
*widely considered* a dialect, at least in Germany, is indisputable.

Timwi


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Translations between different wikipedias,
	and GFDL

body:
Habj wrote:
> According to GFDL, one must always state what work under GFDL the present
> work is based on. Is this true also for translations between different
> wikipedias? I have heard both "yes" and "no" stated as an answer to this.

I think the "yes" and "no" you got were answers to different questions.

Do I need to state that I translated this article from another
Wikipedia? -> Yes, but an edit summary suffices for that.

Does the article text itself need to state that it was originally a
translation from another Wikipedia? -> No.

Timwi


from_name: Wikipedia Romania (Ronline)

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Status of Serbia and Montenegro chapter

body:
Hi,

As a bystander here I am really, really confused about
Zlatiborian!

Now, could someone please translate what Djordje wrote
on the sr.wiki. An honest translation. There are
reasonable grounds to believe this is a hoax, for a
few reasons:

*Djordje's backtracking over this project with
statements like "I'm sorry, it was a hoax"
*Node's expression of "noble" language, etc, which
makes it seem very much like a joke (honestly...)
*The most important point - there are NO internet
sources on this language. None at all! Surely if this
was an actual language, there would be at least one
source calling it Zlatiborian.

Node - you said that you have some books on this
language, and you seem to know quite a lot about it
(vocabulary differences, etc). Are there any sources
on the Internet about this? And proof?

In conclusion - I'm not against the Zlatiborian
Wikipedia, but I'm really in doubt over whether it
actually exists.

I am from Romania, so I know Southeastern Europe quite
well, and I can tell you that while I've heard of
Zlatibor, I've never heard of a Zlatiborian language
before. Languages like Livonian which have 10 speakers
get more coverage on the Internet than Zlatiborian -
that's what worries me.

And Milos - just because there is a proposal on
Zlatiborian doesn't mean it's board-endorsed or
anything. I don't think you have reasonable grounds to
say that because five users have supported a certain
initiative, you will quit Wikipedia or stop the
foundation of Wikimedia SCG.

Thanks,

Ronline

__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com


from_name: Angela

body:
They're calling themselves Wikinews journalists, which is what they
are. It's no different from anyone who has edited Wikipedia calling
themselves a Wikipedian or a Wikipedia editor, which many people do.

Surely it would be only be a violation of the trademarks if it were
being done by people who were not writing at Wikinews?

The community are the ones who approve people - who else would do it?
It certainly wouldn't be feasible for the Board to credential people,
with whom they are not familiar, and especially who are editing in
languages other than English or French. It's up to the organisations
choosing whether or not to accept these "press credentials" to find
out what they mean - and they will see that, like Wikipedia, this is
something that comes from within the community, not something handed
down from some higher authority.

I see this as a means of formally recognising trust within the
community, not so different from administrator access. Should the
Board also be approving who is allowed to give themselves the official
title of "Wikipedia Administrator" or "Wikimedia Steward"? Obviously
not, so why would Wikinewsies need any approval beyond that from their
own community?

I think the Wikinews mailing list would be a more appropriate place to
continue this so as to get input from the people who have created the
accreditation systems.

Angela

On 11/6/05, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Who gave the Wikinews community persmission to give out press credentials to
> its users? This is a major abuse of the Wikinews trademark and could put the
> foundation in legal jeopardy or at least subject it to bad press if one of the
> credentialed users abuse the Wikinews name to gain access they should not be
> granted.
>
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Credential_verification
>
> Nobody on that list has the right to use the Wikinews or Wikimedia trademarks
> in a way that would suggest any official status to the passes. Thus those names
> and logos can not be used on the passes without either Foundation or a local
> chapter approval and oversight.
>
> Either the foundation should officially get involved with handing out
> credentials, or the nonsense going on at Wikinews should stop.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Search results changed

body:
I've changed the lucene-based search to require all given terms to match
by default. This gives more focused results and is more consistent with
typical search engine practice, and our behavior under the old MySQL search.

You can still make terms optional by explicitly using the 'OR' operator
such as: "civil OR war", "blueberry OR pie". (Note that 'OR' must be
capitalized.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Alphax

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Zlatiborian, again

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Milos Rancic wrote:
> On 11/6/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
>>The Zlatiborian language is not a hoax. It is the independent language
>>of a glorious peoples with a long and proud history.
>
>
> This is not a hoax for you because you are a fool. And you are working
> hard to spread disinformation.
>

Ah, so the people who deleted all the articles about it on the English
wikipedia as "hoaxes" were wrong then! Well! Better get them undeleted!
I look forward to reading about the differences between Zlatiborian,
Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian, as well as the long-established
Zlatiborian literature!

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3-cvs (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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ZZ0Ta40eRYhgOOtlc8G+beydcJINhyVKNEzRxS/8vlgGhaFDWsEU6w==
=XjaJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: GerardM

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

references:
<2505d1590511050502n10a523e3hd8ecb9ab39e9c597@mail.gmail.com>
	<dkicc5$9k2$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20051106130705.GA23712@topjaklont.student.utwente.nl>
	<dkl855$cv3$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20051106175928.GB26988@topjaklont.student.utwente.nl>
	<dkltl4$65c$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<849f98ed0511061400h48f27af3k@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Hoi,
A language is a dialect with an army.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 11/6/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...linguistically, it's not entirely meaningless.
>
> Sociolinguistically, it means quite a bit -- "dialect" vs "language"
> is a very interesting part of sociolinguistics -- who considers their
> own speech a dialect, and who considers the speech of others as a
> dialect? Is it correlated at all with cognation percentages or other
> more concrete measurements of similarity? Are people who speak a
> "language" likely to have better attitudes about their speech than
> people who speak a "dialect"? Are people who are branded as speakers
> of a "dialect" by others, but claim themselves to speak a "language",
> likely to be more fiercely independent?
>
> Outside of sociolinguistics, "dialect" does have some degree of
> meaning. It's defined in the strictest sense as "a regional variety of
> a language". Of course, if one were to try to separate all of the
> speech varieties of the world into dialects and languages, that
> division wouldn't much help.
>
> So many people like to try to assign arbitrary divisions based on
> lexicostatistics. Nationalists will try to set it so that their own
> variety is a "language"; most linguists would set it somewhere between
> 70% and 90% cognate. Now, there are "languages" with more than 90%
> cognation, such as Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian, Bokm?l-Danish... and
> there are "dialects" with less than 70% cognation, such as some of the
> Sinitic languages, some "dialects" of German, Italian, and French,
> some Berber "dialects", etc.
>
> Mark
>
> On 06/11/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> > We all know that the difference between "dialect" and "language" is a
> > political one, and linguistically meaningless. That Allemannic is
> > *widely considered* a dialect, at least in Germany, is indisputable.
> >
> > Timwi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Milos Rancic

subject: [Foundation-l] Status of Serbia and Montenegro chapter

body:
Here are some conclusions according to recent events (questionable
reliability of Wikimedian projects) and to meeting of the part of
members of Initiative for Wikimedia Serbia and Montegro:

1. As the part of Wikimedian community supports hoaxes (i.e.
"Zlatiborian language") we are considered that such cases (not only
related to Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian languages area) can make
completely damage to relevancy of Wikimedia and her projects.

2. We completely understand that Wikimedian projects are not only WMF
Board's projects, but the projects of Wikimedian community. According
to that, we worry that recent events are not isolated cases, but the
important rule in Wikimedian community. Because of that we understand
that our involvement, as organization in the future, in Wikimedian
project assumes that we support such kinds of scientific and social
irresponsibilities. And we are not ready to do that.

3. Only because of the fact that our meeting was just the meeting of
the part of Initiative for WM SCG, we didn't make any decision. As we
would have Founding Assembly in two weeks, as our first meeting with
full number of members from now, we would make decision then.

4. Decisions can be: (1) We would a "full" local chapter (i.e., like
German Chapter is) with the name "Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro" or
(2) we would not be a "full" local chapter, but only a friendly
organization which can behave like an Wikimedian local chapter (with
different name then "Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro").


body:
Mark, please read what Djordje wrote today on Serbian vilage pump:
http://sr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0%3A%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B3%2F%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0&diff=139037&oldid=138995

If you don't know Serbian (nor "Zlatiborian"), I am sure that you can
find someone to translate it.

On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, come on, that is ridiculous.
>
> It's not as if the Board voted to accept a Zlatiborian Wikipedia.

No, we understand it. This is the community decision and we are worry
about the future of such proposals and possible accepting of them.

> Just because there is a proposal, and a handful of people support it,
> that's a really bad reason to threaten such a thing.
>
> And don't tell me this isn't a threat -- it very clearly is. You're
> hoping that by doing this, somebody "official" will get worried and
> intervene re: Zlatiborian.
>
> That's very... well, it's not a nice tactic.

No, we started some process and it is not easy to stop it. Almost for
sure we would not be officially related with other local chapters and
WMF.

> If you guys decide not to participate in Wikimedia, then perhaps you
> should remove your votes from Requests_for_new_languages? You can't
> have it both ways, man.

We would continue to work on Wikipedia, this is not the issue. As
Wikipedians, we have the right to vote about it.

But, you are right in some way. We would talk about this voting soon
and maybe remove our votes. There is no sense to tolerate insults from
you and similar people. But, this is WikiPedian decision and this not
related to local chapter issues.


body:
You didn't read Djordje's edit?

On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> The whole reason this is so ridiculous is that you are threatening to
> remove your status simply b/c of this one thing.

No, this is important issue. Djordje is not dangerous person when we
are talking about realiability of Wikipedia, but you are very
dangerous, as well as people similar to you.

Without _any_ knowledge about situation (nor political nor
linguistic), you are ready to believe in reasonable explained hoaxes.
And this would not be the problem if you keep this for yourself. It
becomes the big problem when you start to advocate for such things.

Note that I voted for opening Cantonese Wikipedia only because you and
one person more explained that there is different writing system. As I
don't know anything about linguistic situation in China, I trusted to
both of you and considered that people who were opposing -- are
Chinese nationalists. When I make relation between this case and
Zlatiborian case, I am afraid that I voted for another hoax. Am I
right?

And what about some Nigerian villages or ten names for one language in India?

So, this is the issue of scientific competency of Wikimedian projects.
If we officially recognize that we are the part of that, we officially
recognize such cases like "Zlatiborian Wikipedia".

And I don't want to be in conversation like:

Me: There are more then 100 different language editions of Wikipedia!
Someone: And how many of them are Zlatiborian?

I don't want to be the part of scientific non-relevant project. This
is not the issue of Zlatiborian.

Note, also, that Djordje is bureaucrat on Serbian Wikipedia.


body:
On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> And I would say you are just as dangerous. You seek to further your
> anti-Zlatiborian agenda by attacking the Zlatiborian cause and
> pretending that the glorious Zlatiborian language doesn't even exist!

Mark, you are not only fool...


body:
I thought that this issue is serious, but when I read Mark's edit, I
realized that Djordje made of Mark a real, big fool. Djordje made my
day :)

Mark is responding to 17 year old guy who is far of any kind of
political position:

*You're the worst of the lot. My Zlatiborian brothers will surely find
their glorious homeland free from the shackles of Serbian oppression
when they stage a revolution against your long occupation, and the
Zlatiborian language and culture will finally have a chance to be
promoted internationally without fear of punishment by cruel Serbian
nationalists. You think that you can claim that just because I am not
a Serbian, I know nothing about this issue. Well, I have seen images
of Zlatibor on television, and I read all about the Serbian
occupation. I have a bumper sticker that says "Free Zlatibor Now!
Boycott Serbia!", and I own some books on Zlatiborian language. My
deepest hope is that after the Serbian tyranny ends, I may travel to
Zlatibor and witness the beauty firsthand. That is, unless you and
your Serbian nationalist goons destroy it first. --Node ue 19:53, 6
November 2005 (UTC)


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

subject: [Foundation-l] Vote to create Wikiversity Vote

body:
On 11/1/05, Cormac Lawler <cormaggio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/1/05, Robert Scott Horning <robert_horning at netzero.net> wrote:
> > This is a reminder/formal notice that the voting period for the creation
> > of Wikiversity is now over, and that the proposal to create Wikiversity
> > as a new Wikimedia sister project is now being submitted to the
> > Wikimedia Foundation board for a formal review..[snip]
>
>
> I'd just like to thank you Robert for all the work you've put into
> this proposal, timetable, vote etc. I've been meaning to write up a
> proposal to the community on this, as Wikiversity is something that
> really energises me at the moment (mentally at least). (My lack of)
> time at the moment forbids me from going into everything I'd like to
> say about Wikiversity, but I'd liek to make some brief points.
>
> It is clear that many people are afraid that the idea is too
> half-baked or not ready enough to be started. This is currently true -
> Wikiversity exists as many different ideas in many people's heads,
> with plenty of enthusiasm but not much to actually to show for it. But
> my counter argument to this is: *every* wiki project has developed
> from a similar position. Every wiki is an idea which is generated and
> created through the combined energy of its participants - you only
> have to look at the various listings of people at the vote or on the
> proposed projects page or on the meta Wikiversity talk page amongst
> others, to see that there is so much energy there waiting to be
> tapped, and rearing to go. That, surely, is the main thing. I think
> the crucial point is that Wikiversity, if created now, will not (in
> the main) be ready to actually go live as a learning centre *just
> yet*. It needs to have a creation period, it needs to be widely known
> about to generate a learner base - and *then* it can flourish. Just
> don't expect results yet (though some courses could be created quite
> quickly - and who's to say that we need to constuct whole courses in
> the first place? What about single lesson plans? What about
> collections of flash cards? etc.)
>
> Another major concern is resources - both human and electronic (ie.
> financial). I don't know about the latter part (and I'd really like
> someone to tell us how much it would cost in server/work hours terms
> to set up a new project in comparison to what it would cost to set up
> a new language project on any other WMF project - hence crossposting
> to wikitech). But on the human resources side - i think, on the
> contrary, this will be an excellent opportunity for the projects to
> cross-pollinate (Wikipedia and Wikibooks especially) and draw in a
> huge sector of people that may have erstwhile have remained on the
> periphery of especially Wikipedia. I have a hunch that not only could
> we get a whole lot more poeple involved in setting up this project,
> but we could also get some major funding. UNESCO's ecucation for all
> campaign comes to mind - and I'd appreciate any other suggestions.
>
> That's all time permits me to say for now, but suffice to say that i
> have been reading around Wikiversity for a few months now and, for
> one, am highly motivated to get this off the ground. I know of quiet a
> few more and I know that it could really take off. So if we could have
> some very clear technical issues that need to be dealt with, I think
> that's where we should be focussing our attention, rather than the
> fact that it isn't ready/finished yet - because it just needs a bit of
> time, space, and a steady stream of energy that i know exists.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Cormac / Cormaggio

For my part I think Wikiversity is a great idea, but I don't see where it
benefits from being part of Wikimedia. Wikimedia is primarily a media
company, and a university and a media company are only loosely tied with one
another. Yes, books need to be used by a university, but a) most
universities don't make all their own books, and b) Wikibooks can handle
that part of the project without being part of the university (but merely
working hand-in-hand with the university).

If there is enough support for this project to be at all successful it would
be no problem to start it up as its own organization separate from the
Wikimedia Foundation. That doesn't mean it would compete with the WMF, in
fact the two would likely co-exist quite amicably.

The only way I really think it'd be reasonable to expect Wikiversity to work
as a Wikimedia project would be if this came from the top down, as a board
mandate. Even then, for Wikiversity and Wikipedia both to truly be
successful they would probably have to be run as separate legal and/or
economic entities. For Wikiversity to be successful it's going to require a
lot of money. This is not to say donations, it very well could be
self-sustaining, but I bet a lot of Wikipedians are going to want to know
that their donations are going to Wikipedia and not to subsidize a
university. Furthermore, there would probably be legal implications that
would necessitate forming a separate entity, especially if the university
ever wants to be accredited (which I think it should).

Maybe I'm just looking too far into the future. Or maybe I'm seeing this as
a bigger project than it really is. But that's just the way I think. I think
you've got to set your goals high and plan out the full path too those goals
early on - not to have everything written in stone but at least to have a
rough draft of what the future has in store.

Anthony


from_name: Ole Andersen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
On 06/11/05, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> A language is a dialect with an army.

There goes Icelandic! Oops.

--
http://palnatoke.org * Ole Andersen, Copenhagen, DK
CV: http://palnatoke.org/CV.doc
ICQ: 86989486 phone: +45 36 47 31 59


from_name: Chip Berlet

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Press badges

body:
Hi,

As a former board member of the Underground Press Syndicate in the U.S. I certainly agree that Wiki could issue press credentials, but it is a bit more complicated. We used to issue our own press cards to member journalists.

In the U.S., press credentials that allow access to situations controlled by police, fire, and other government agencies are photo ID's issued by a state agency, even though journalists are not licensed.

Self-generated press credentials can (and have) been abused by people just trying to get into concerts and other entertainment venues, so many venues only accept the state-issued credentials, or credentials from media outlets they recognize as major.

Covering breaking news with a press credential is, by definition, original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia, and thus I am not sure that Wikipedia should be issuing press credentials. That would seem to be done more appropriately by alternative media on the political left, center, and right; then published in print or online, and then brought onto Wikipedia as a published report.

Wikinews, however, is a form of alternative media, and should fee free to issue press credentials to members of the Wikinews community who have a track record of regular and substantive contributions, and a willingness to recognize that they are carrying the reputation of Wikinews with them; and thus should behave in appropriate ways given local country/city media standards--even if they disagree with those standards.

Also, in some circumstances and some states/countries, issuing press credentials entails certifying someone as an agent, and may create an issue of liability in terms of defamation or other legal issue.

Cberlet

(aka Chip Berlet)

________________________________

From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org on behalf of Peter Mackay
Sent: Fri 11/4/2005 6:27 PM
To: 'English Wikipedia'
Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Re: Press badges

> From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
> [mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of steve v
>
> --- Nathan Reed <nathanreed at gmail.com> wrote:
> > We've had this discussion quite a bit on Wikinews -- accreditation
> > does you little good unless a press pass is also issued by whatever
> > event/organization/governmental agency you wish to cover. Some have
> > discussed a meta press corps -- would the bar be higher
> there than on
> > Wikinews? Our concept of an accredited wikinewsie is still citizen
> > journalist. This is a radical concept, of course, and I'm
> not sure the
> > world is ready to deal with it.
> > -N.
>
> A news organization, by definition, is an organized
> newsgathering entity with some degree of accountability.
> Press passes offer people some degree of authority and
> access, and likewise suggest that individuals have
> demonstrated professional credentials.
>
> Just throwing this out there: I dont see how any
> anti-credentialist organization can be in the business of
> giving out credentials.

In the same wiki-way that everything else works here. The community decides
who, based on their contributions, is able to present a professional face to
the real world and a useful contribution to Wikipedia/WikiNews. I use
"professional" here in the sense of "adhering to industry standards", rather
than "being paid for".

I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Australia journalists
aren't licensed. Anyone can be a journalist. Freelancers are common.

As noted previously, Wikipedia is gaining a certain measure of respect and
exposure in the general community. We don't need to sell our encyclopaedic
credentials, just our audience. Nobody considers tabloid newspapers to hold
to high standards of journalistic integrity, but they command wide
readerships, and their journalists find little difficulty in gaining access
to events. All we really need do is say "Google such-and such a subject" and
Wikipedia is generally in the first ten entries, so we've got that sort of
leverage to use with people who are after media exposure.

And realistically, it's a win-win situation. We get information and (most
importantly) free-use photographs, and the organisation or event gets web
exposure that they just can't buy.

Peter (Skyring)

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Category:Soviet spies

body:
I agree with this. There is a great deal of information that has been
published based on Soviet archives, for example the two books based
on the Mitrokhin Archives. That is all good, but when you are in
court and trying to get a judge to accept evidence from a published
report of what is in the Soviet archives you are going to be in big
trouble. The books based on the Mitrokhin Archives were vetted by the
lawyers for the publisher, but they had access to copies of the
original documents, you probably don't.

Fred

On Nov 7, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Chip Berlet wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The Wikipedia entry "Category:Soviet spies" is a magnet for a
> defamation lawsuit. Many of the people in the list were never
> indicted, and some denied the charge in public. At least one person
> is still alive: "Harry Magdoff".
>
> At best, this should be renamed to something like:
> "Category:Accused Soviet spies" .
>
> I freely confess I have a vested interest in this matter, currently
> well into the second month of mdiation with Nobs01on a related
> matter without a single compromise paragraph having been written:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/
> Cberlet_and_Nobs01/Workshop
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/
> Cberlet_and_Nobs01
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/
> Cberlet_and_Nobs01/A3
>
> But since this mediation seems to be dragging on for months, I
> though that I would mention this now, rather than wait for the
> mediation to hit the year 2006.
>
> Some folks here on this list should consider the possible defmation
> issue very seriously. I messed up my first attempt to deal with
> this on Wiki. I meant to suggest a name change or deletion, but
> misunderstood the process.
>
> I have prevailed after being sued for defamation twice, but it cost
> tens of thousands of dollars just to get a judge to toss me out of
> the case.
>
> Cberlet
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
--- Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> They're calling themselves Wikinews journalists, which is what they
> are.

Anybody who works on Wikinews can say that. Yes. This is about a sub group that
wish to say they have Wikinews press credentials as a means to gain access to
press events. That is *very* different.

> It's no different from anyone who has edited Wikipedia calling
> themselves a Wikipedian or a Wikipedia editor, which many people do.

It is very different. They wish to use these credentials and the Wikinews name
to gain access normally only granted to credentialed journalists.

> Surely it would be only be a violation of the trademarks if it were
> being done by people who were not writing at Wikinews?

Not so. They do not have permission to use the Wikinews trademark in a way that
implies they are officially credentialed by Wikinews or Wikimedia. They are
not.

> The community are the ones who approve people - who else would do it?

If  you thought I meant that, then I?m sorry I was not clear. All I want is for
the board to either place their stamp of approval on what is already going on
and help with its administration (such as providing a phone line for people to
check the credentials of people who claim to have them), or stop it the whole
thing completely. The current system for selecting the people who are
considered to have credentials seems to be OK.

> I see this as a means of formally recognising trust within the
> community, not so different from administrator access.

Administrator access only pertains to what the people who have it do on our
projects. Giving people press credentials is *very* different since they will
be using the good name of Wikinews and Wikimedia out in the real world. If they
misuse those credentials and thus the good name of Wikinews and Wikimedia, then
we all get harmed by that.

> I think the Wikinews mailing list would be a more appropriate place to
> continue this so as to get input from the people who have created the
> accreditation systems.

This is an issue of use of trademarks. This list is the best place to talk
about that.

-- mav

__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com


body:
--- Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> What trademark violation is going on here?  Trademark law only prohibits
> commercial use of a trademark for a competing product in the same
> market.

Trademark law does not only prohibit commercial use. Any use which dilutes a
mark in a particular market is a potential violation. Using a mark that implies
an official connection when no such connection exists is also a potential
violation.

-- mav

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Search results changed

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> I've changed the lucene-based search to require all given terms to
> match by default. This gives more focused results and is more
> consistent with typical search engine practice, and our behavior under
> the old MySQL search.
>
> You can still make terms optional by explicitly using the 'OR'
> operator such as: "civil OR war", "blueberry OR pie". (Note that 'OR'
> must be capitalized.)

Why not eregi_replace it? The only situation where you'd actually search
for the word "or" is a book/movie/song title, where it can be omitted.

BTW, do we support searches like
* stuff AND (foo OR bar)
* stuff "foo bar"
?

Magnus
(too lazy to try)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Category:Soviet spies

body:
Hi,

The Wikipedia entry "Category:Soviet spies" is a magnet for a defamation lawsuit. Many of the people in the list were never indicted, and some denied the charge in public. At least one person is still alive: "Harry Magdoff".

At best, this should be renamed to something like: "Category:Accused Soviet spies" .

I freely confess I have a vested interest in this matter, currently well into the second month of mdiation with Nobs01on a related matter without a single compromise paragraph having been written:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Cberlet_and_Nobs01/Workshop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Cberlet_and_Nobs01

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Cberlet_and_Nobs01/A3

But since this mediation seems to be dragging on for months, I though that I would mention this now, rather than wait for the mediation to hit the year 2006.

Some folks here on this list should consider the possible defmation issue very seriously. I messed up my first attempt to deal with this on Wiki. I meant to suggest a name change or deletion, but misunderstood the process.

I have prevailed after being sued for defamation twice, but it cost tens of thousands of dollars just to get a judge to toss me out of the case.

Cberlet


subject: [WikiEN-l] Category:Soviet spies

body:
Hi,

I put "Category:Soviet spies"  on Categories for Deletion, but even though most of the people thought a name change was a good idea, since most of them did not vote to Delete, the ruling was to Keep.  I objected, but got no response.

-Cberlet

________________________________

From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org on behalf of Sam Korn
Sent: Mon 11/7/2005 9:34 AM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Soviet spies

I suggest you bring this up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CFD

I agree that the change needs to be made.  Perhaps there can be a
second category for confirmed Soviet spies.

Sam

On 11/7/05, Chip Berlet <c.berlet at publiceye.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The Wikipedia entry "Category:Soviet spies" is a magnet for a defamation lawsuit. Many of the people in the list were never indicted, and some denied the charge in public. At least one person is still alive: "Harry Magdoff".
>
> At best, this should be renamed to something like: "Category:Accused Soviet spies" .
>
> I freely confess I have a vested interest in this matter, currently well into the second month of mdiation with Nobs01on a related matter without a single compromise paragraph having been written:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Cberlet_and_Nobs01/Workshop
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Cberlet_and_Nobs01
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Cberlet_and_Nobs01/A3
>
> But since this mediation seems to be dragging on for months, I though that I would mention this now, rather than wait for the mediation to hit the year 2006.
>
> Some folks here on this list should consider the possible defmation issue very seriously. I messed up my first attempt to deal with this on Wiki. I meant to suggest a name change or deletion, but misunderstood the process.
>
> I have prevailed after being sued for defamation twice, but it cost tens of thousands of dollars just to get a judge to toss me out of the case.
>
> Cberlet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
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Hash: SHA256

GerardM wrote:
> Hoi,
> A language is a dialect with an army.
>

I thought it was a navy! :)

Wait a minute... I have an "Australian English" babel template on my
userpage, there is an article on Australian English (probably with
subarticles), and we have an Army, Navy, Air Force and SAS! Surely we
can create an Australian English Wikipedia! :-D

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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from_name: Gerrit Holl

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Zlatiborian, again

body:
Ole Andersen wrote:
> On 06/11/05, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > A language is a dialect with an army.
>
> There goes Icelandic! Oops.

And Catalan...

Gerrit.

--
Temperature in Lule?, Norrbotten, Sweden:
| Current temperature   05-11-07 09:39:49   -1.7 degrees Celsius ( 28.9F) |
--
Det finns inte d?ligt v?der, bara d?liga kl?der.


from_name: Walter van Kalken

body:
>Yes, and Walter van Kalken is a sysop on the Thai WP. Yet, Dutch is
>not a dialect of Thai... being a B.C or S.O on a Wikipedia, does not
>mean it's your native language.
>
HUH? what do I have to do with this discussion?

Walter/Waerth


body:
Milos Rancic wrote:
> From: Milos Rancic <millosh at mutualaid.org>
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Status of Serbia and Montenegro chapter
> Cc:
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> X-Spambayes-Classification: ham; 0.000 (3)
> Old-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:27:19 +0100
> Date: Mon,  7 Nov 2005 02:49:08 +0100 (CET)
>
> On 11/7/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > And I would say you are just as dangerous. You seek to further your
> > anti-Zlatiborian agenda by attacking the Zlatiborian cause and
> > pretending that the glorious Zlatiborian language doesn't even exist!
>
> Mark, you are not only fool...

Can you two please refrain from personal attacks and can you please
assume good faith? Thank you. I have no knowledge at all about
Zlatiborian but I suspect it's a dialect, given the proposals I see for
Dutch "languages" (Stellingwerfs, Gronings).

Gerrit.

--
Temperature in Lule?, Norrbotten, Sweden:
| Current temperature   05-11-07 10:29:53   -0.9 degrees Celsius ( 30.4F) |
--
Det finns inte d?ligt v?der, bara d?liga kl?der.