from_name: Manning Bartlett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Home page time

body:
I hate to resurrect an old topic, but frankly it does irritate me that the server time and home page date is set to US Pacific. I really think that UTC/GMT would be a far more neutral choice, as it is the accepted worldwide "base time zone", and could never be controversial.

I always reset my preferences to accommodate Sydney time (presently 19 hours ahead of USPST) anyway, but having an American time zone implies an American bias, which an international resource like the Wikipedia shouldn't have. Even CNN uses GMT for all of it's non-US broadcasts.

Just my thoughts
Manning

*****************
Manning Bartlett
Senior Business Intelligence Consultant
EMC Global Pty Ltd
Sydney Australia

Mob: 0413-878-186
manning at bartlett.net

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from_name: lcrocker at nupedia.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "central authority structure"

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from_name: Robert Bihlmeyer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Biography as a discipline

body:
Julie Kemp <juleskemp at yahoo.com> writes:

> In English, we use Hans Christian, so that's how people will look
> him up.

First, don't forget that one can easily make one page redirect to the
other, so only the "real" page title is at issue here; an issue for
pedants only.

> I was under the impression that trying to write the articles
> with "most familiar English-language version of name (when
> applicable)" was a consensus-driven wiki norm?

What if the most familiar version is objectively wrong? One case in
point is that we don't have [[e. e. cummings]] which seems to be the
most used spelling, while we do have [[E. E. Cummings]] which people
seem to consider right. Actually the first should at least redirect
until we have software that doesn't discern by case.

--
Robbe
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from_name: Gareth Owen

in_reply_to: "Manning Bartlett"'s message of "Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:06:35 +1100"

body:
"Manning Bartlett" <manning at bartlett.net> writes:

> I am so sick of this ridiculous "Militia" discussion that it makes my skin
> crawl to even be writing about it

Theres a Militia discussion?
I don't like this wishy-washy liberal word "Guard".
Can't we call them the "Wikipedia Fascist Death Squad"? <--- JOKE
--
Gareth Owen
"Wikipedia does rock.  By the count on the "brilliant prose" page, there
 are 14 not-bad articles so far" -- Larry Sanger (12 Jan 2001)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Printable version

body:
Larry Sanger <lsanger at nupedia.com> writes:

>  I think I'd like to find some plausible way to leave the exact
>  wording open. The only disputed issue of any significance, I
>  believe, is whether we will require a link back to the actual
>  article URL on Wikipedia.

I still think that we would just have to *suggest* a few attributions
we like, and 95 % of people would cut'n'paste one of these. I think
the Free Software example shows that most people want to cooperate
with the Copyright holders as much as possible (hey, they're giving
away things!). And even the big boys can be persuaded by community
pressure.

That's not to say that requirements are not needed; but giving people
some slack may not be a bad idea. Requirements that I find useful:

* It must be made clear that/how the content in question is derived
  from Wikipedia (basic GFDL requirement).
* The name "Wikipedia" must be mentioned
* http://www.wikipedia.com/ must be linked to (if hypertext) or
  mentioned (otherwise). If the exact page URL is used instead, that's
  even better, but not required.

Regarding printed versions, I don't think giving the URL to the exact
page wins us anything. People have to type it in both ways, and it's
nicer to type in "wikipedia.com" first, have the browser figure
"http://www.wikipedia.com/" and type in the page title into ... the
Search field. Hmm, I would actually find a "go to this page" field,
that does no searching useful on the homepage.

Example HTML that qualifies:

  The following is a snapshot from a
  Wikipedia article
  (edit
  that article)

Example from a printed text:

  This article is based on material from Wikipedia, The Free
  Encylopedia. URL http://www.wikipedia.com/

Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> writes:

> Plausible arguments have been made that the copyright rests with the
> original authors, and that Bomis/Wikipedia stands in the position of
> redistributor.

Since I don't remember signing (or even clicking "ok" on) an a
copyright assignment, that seems the most realistic view. Bomis could
possibly assert copyright on the /collection/ of articles.

> The primary *disadvantage* to Bomis NOT owning copyright on the
> articles is standing in case of a lawsuit.  I consider one of my jobs
> as trustee of the project is to sue the hell out of Microsoft or
> whoever if they try to do something unfree with the content.  I'll
> have a harder time doing that if I'm not owner of the copyright, and
> lots of individual owners might be hard to organize into a coherent
> legal strategy.

Well, Bomis certainly has Copyrights on articles that were edited by
its paid employees. Since Larry is doing a lot of work on Wikipedia,
Bomis may well be the biggest single Copyright holder. This may
already give you adequate standing in a lawsuit.

Contrast this with the situation of the FSF: were it not for Copyright
assignments, the FSF would have *no* Copyright-relevant connection to
many GNU projects, because FSF-employees did not write a single line
of code for these.

> All this stuff makes my head hurt, I must admit.  I just want to make
> a free encyclopedia.

Me too. But these things should all be in order, before the big
splash. Need I mention "Mathworld"?

Maybe this should be taken from the hands of us law amateurs and
placed in those of professional counsel. Perhaps a lawyer with ties to
the Free {Software,Database} community could be find that could give
us a good "deal".

--
Robbe
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in_reply_to: lcrocker@nupedia.com's message of "Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:19:47 -0800"

body:
lcrocker at nupedia.com writes:

> > Unfortunately, somehow my comment has been twisted...
> > I am posting to Wikipedia-L simply to erase a distortion
> > of my comments.
>
> This would only be a problem if you thought we took anything
> Cunc says seriously.  Since we know better, no harm done.

I'm continually baffled by the fact people keep replying to Cunc.  There is
nothing in his actions over the last month that distinguishes him in anyway
from a good old fashioned Troll.

 +--------------------+
 | PLEASE DO NOT FEED |
 |     THE TROLL.     |
 |     THANK YOU.     |
 |  -- The Management |
 +--------------------+
          |  |
          |  |    O
   o      |  |    |
__\|/___=\|  |/=_\|/____

--
Gareth Owen
New wikipedia signature wanted!


body:
I am so sick of this ridiculous "Militia" discussion that it makes my skin crawl to even be writing about it, but on some of the pages I've noticed a quote of mine being used wildly out of context, so I feel forced to clarify it.

I coined the phrase "central authority structure" to collectively refer to the "core" groups of 'pedians. ("Core" and "central" are synonymous). I used the phrase in passing to emphasise that there is an organic and completely dynamic core group of people who contribute to the 'pedia on a regular basis, and that this core group is non-exclusive and admits any who wants to join and is willing to put in the time.

Unfortunately, somehow my comment has been twisted to sound as if I think that there is a "dictatorial, militaristic power system" which is complete and utter bullshit. I don't, never have, never will. The Militia is a good idea, borne of experience and it appears most of us support it without any controversy.

I am posting to Wikipedia-L simply to erase a distortion of my comments.

I beg you, please do not bother to reply - we don't need to prolong this asinine and pointless debate any further. Let's just build the 'pedia.

Manning

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from_name: wikipedia at epoptic.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Vandalism In Progress

body:
The article "United States Constitution/Amendment Fourteen" is under
attack from "Zenferret" and "65.80.128.xxx" -- we've gone through
several vandalism/reversion cycles already.  I hereby petition for the
appropriate IP address(es) to be blocked.


from_name: Jimmy Wales

in_reply_to: <r5iy9ko2kar.fsf@orr.maths.keele.ac.uk>; from wiki@gwowen.freeserve.co.uk on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 06:19:40PM +0000

body:
Gareth Owen wrote:
> I'm continually baffled by the fact people keep replying to Cunc.  There is
> nothing in his actions over the last month that distinguishes him in anyway
> from a good old fashioned Troll.

He and I had a very nice private conversation not so long ago in which
we both ended up apologizing sincerely for a quarrel we had about some
things that were said in a debate on Wikipedia itself.

I think that the fundamental characteristic of a troll is that a troll
deliberately tries to generate more heat than light, as an end in
itself.  I think that in the case of the Cunc, this isn't quite
accurate.  I think he's trying to generate light.  He's just
difficult and inflammatory.

--Jimbo


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
>
> Gareth Owen wrote:
> > I'm continually baffled by the fact people keep replying to Cunc.  There is
> > nothing in his actions over the last month that distinguishes him in anyway
> > from a good old fashioned Troll.
>
> He and I had a very nice private conversation not so long ago in which
> we both ended up apologizing sincerely for a quarrel we had about some
> things that were said in a debate on Wikipedia itself.
>
> I think that the fundamental characteristic of a troll is that a troll
> deliberately tries to generate more heat than light, as an end in
> itself.  I think that in the case of the Cunc, this isn't quite
> accurate.  I think he's trying to generate light.  He's just
> difficult and inflammatory.
>
Boy, that made me feel warm and fuzzy. But I know where you're coming
from, and the criticism may be warranted. (Though I would have written:
           I think that in the case of the Cunc, this isn't
   accurate. I think he's trying to, and does, generate light. He's
   just sometimes difficult and inflammatory.
)

I am in a pretty difficult position, because people have gotten into the
habit of attacking my motives and character, which means I either have
to
expend energy defending them (like here) or I have to grin and bear it,
or just leave. And I don't enjoy any of that. I'm trying to be closer
to WikipediAhimsa now.

I truly think people's expectations of my behavior have been influenced
by the unfairly negative characterizations of it, and such expectations
then influence their perception of my behavior.

But maybe I am really a troll, as GWO and LMS assert.

It's certainly not for me to tell you what to think, and I clearly have
made some mistakes. Enough about me. How was the wedding?

TC


from_name: David Merrill

body:
On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 03:06:55AM -0500, The Cunctator wrote:
> I am in a pretty difficult position, because people have gotten into the
> habit of attacking my motives and character, which means I either have
> to
> expend energy defending them (like here) or I have to grin and bear it,
> or just leave. And I don't enjoy any of that. I'm trying to be closer
> to WikipediAhimsa now.

Or you could stop being difficult and inflammatory. What a concept.

--
Dr. David C. Merrill                     http://www.lupercalia.net
Linux Documentation Project                   david at lupercalia.net
Collection Editor & Coordinator            http://www.linuxdoc.org

I think the most thoughtful feature in Windows is the blue screen. Such a
nice, soothing color, just when I need soothing the most. Now if only it
could play that mellow newage startup music during hard hangs.
	--Unknown


from_name: Larry Sanger

body:
On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, The Cunctator wrote:

>            I think that in the case of the Cunc, this isn't
>    accurate. I think he's trying to, and does, generate light. He's
>    just sometimes difficult and inflammatory. )
>
> I am in a pretty difficult position, because people have gotten into
> the habit of attacking my motives and character, which means I either
> have to expend energy defending them (like here) or I have to grin and
> bear it, or just leave. And I don't enjoy any of that.

Er, that's not quite what happened most recently, is it?  The above claim
is precisely the sort of misleading claim that irritates me.  In fact, you
posted a completely misleading, inflammatory discussion of the "Wikipedia
Militia" page.  Many people, myself included, responded strongly to your
unfair rhetoric.  It's not as if you're merely the victim of an unprovoked
attack.  So do not misrepresent the situation.  There were indeed good
reasons to respond to the incredible rudeness of your behavior; don't
expect polite people to tolerate it.  Moreover, you cannot expect many
people to give you very much sympathy for the harsh, but *perfectly
appropriate* responses people have made to you.

> I truly think people's expectations of my behavior have been
> influenced by the unfairly negative characterizations of it, and such
> expectations then influence their perception of my behavior.

Give me a break!  As if you had not earned your reputation slowly and
painfully over a period of months, and as if we all did not know this!

> But maybe I am really a troll, as GWO and LMS assert.

I'd like to point out that you, Cunctator, are the one who decided (rather
trollishly, I might add) to make public my opinion that you are (were
acting like) a troll.  I told you that *in private e-mail*.  Moreover, in
private, I know of a few others who have asserted the same thing about
you.  Now, if you want people to stop accusing you of being a troll, then
stop acting like one.  If you want detailed advice on how to do so, I'm
sure there are many here who would be only too happy to help.

I really do wish we could stop this.  Cunctator, if you would cease to
write such inflammatory stuff, we will have no grounds on which to
criticize you.  Apart from the inflammatory stuff, you've done some very
good work for the project.  I know that you won't like to be told to cease
your ill-prosecuted, self-chosen role as resident passionate gadfly; but
you know, the original gadfly, Socrates, is known as the very model of
reasonableness and politeness.  Plato's Socrates let the facts, or logic,
speak for themselves, and did not resort to insulting innuendo and dirty
rhetorical tricks.  Even the famed Socratic irony was generally very
gentle, and usually consisted of Socrates praising someone for knowing
something that Socrates knew all too well his "victim" *did not* know.

Larry Sanger


from_name: kband at www.llamacom.com

body:
>
> On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 03:06:55AM -0500, The Cunctator wrote:
> > I am in a pretty difficult position, because people have gotten into the
> > habit of attacking my motives and character, which means I either have
> > to
> > expend energy defending them (like here) or I have to grin and bear it,
> > or just leave. And I don't enjoy any of that. I'm trying to be closer
> > to WikipediAhimsa now.
>
> Or you could stop being difficult and inflammatory. What a concept.
>

Would I presumptuous to consider your sarcasm ("What a concept")
inflammatory?

Or should I consider it a well-deserved rebuke?

Reading between the lines for both of our comments, it looks like
I'm implying that people's response to me is unfair, while
you're implying that it is.

I think much of people's response is fair, actually. The little that
I consider unfair is when people characterize my intent: whereas
you said "You could stop being difficult and inflammatory", you
didn't say "You are trying to be difficult and inflammatory, and it's
what you enjoy, and it's your reason for living," which is what LMS
has said about me.

I'm writing directly to you because I don't want you to think I'm
trying to showboat. But I'm not trying to keep this private, either,
if you think I'm erring in that direction.

yours,
TC


body:
On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:15:46PM -0600, kband at www.llamacom.com wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 03:06:55AM -0500, The Cunctator wrote:
> > > I am in a pretty difficult position, because people have gotten into the
> > > habit of attacking my motives and character, which means I either have
> > > to
> > > expend energy defending them (like here) or I have to grin and bear it,
> > > or just leave. And I don't enjoy any of that. I'm trying to be closer
> > > to WikipediAhimsa now.
> >
> > Or you could stop being difficult and inflammatory. What a concept.
> >
>
> Would I presumptuous to consider your sarcasm ("What a concept")
> inflammatory?
>
> Or should I consider it a well-deserved rebuke?

I think it was a well-deserved rebuke. The "what a concept" phrase was
intended to mean that my proposed solution was completely obvious.

> Reading between the lines for both of our comments, it looks like
> I'm implying that people's response to me is unfair, while
> you're implying that it is.

I think their reaction is understandable. In fact, I think it was very
restrained and patient. Only after repeated attempts to come to an
understanding through reason.

I don't think your behavior is acceptable. You criticize without
giving constructive criticism, you imply conspiracy theories that don't
exist, and you mischaracterize other people's statements.

> I think much of people's response is fair, actually. The little that
> I consider unfair is when people characterize my intent: whereas
> you said "You could stop being difficult and inflammatory", you
> didn't say "You are trying to be difficult and inflammatory, and it's
> what you enjoy, and it's your reason for living," which is what LMS
> has said about me.
>
> I'm writing directly to you because I don't want you to think I'm
> trying to showboat. But I'm not trying to keep this private, either,
> if you think I'm erring in that direction.

I don't know what your intent is, but I know how it appears from here.
And it appears from here that you understand the problem, and yet you
continue to perpetutate it.

--
Dr. David C. Merrill                     http://www.lupercalia.net
Linux Documentation Project                   david at lupercalia.net
Collection Editor & Coordinator            http://www.linuxdoc.org

No major software project that has been successful in a general
marketplace (as opposed to niches) has ever gone through those nice
lifecycles they tell you about in CompSci classes.
		-- Linus Torvalds, lkml


from_name: Wojciech Pobratyn

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Temporary favicon

body:
hi all.

attached you will find a favicon I have created from the wikipedia logo
which is in use now. Until we choose a new logo we could use this one.

+WojPob

----
Wojciech Lukasz Pobratyn
Wirtschaftsuniversitaet Wien

Sajaki's finger tightened on the trigger.
"You underestimate my propensity for acting on a whim, Dan.
I might kill you just for the sheer cosmic perversity of the act"

                   -- Sajaki in Alastair Reynolds? Revelation Space
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body:
Sorry to drag this out, but I feel I have something important to add.

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Manning Bartlett wrote:
> If you want to criticise a decision, or an action, or an article, or
> discuss a policy, count me in. But I find expressing contempt for any
> individual, for any reason, to be unacceptable in this forum.

I wish I could agree, but I can't, not entirely.  I agree that the initial
posts about Cunctator being a troll, which started this most recent
dispute, were unnecessary.

My own post, while it did express no small amount of contempt for some of
Cunctator's public statements, was made not out of hostility but out of
self-defense.  Cunctator now tries to say that he himself is under
"attack," as if he had not brought the criticism of his behavior upon
himself.  Words have consequences.  In a dispute that has become personal,
the consequences are consequences for reputation, and some of us (myself
certainly) require at least a decent reputation in order to be able to do
our jobs.  If someone makes many misleading public statements
(intentionally, or not!) that tend to undermine my reputation, I think
it's important that I defend it.  Repeatedly, if necessary.  I won't
apologize for doing so.

Two important qualifications to the above: first, of course, it would have
been better if the dispute never happened in the first place.  Then I
would have enjoyed, well, *not* getting defensive.  Second, if the
misrepresentations are not credible to anyone, then of course there's no
point in trying to correct them.  But if someone has enough good will and
credibility in the Wikipedia community, then, when he says something that
I think is particularly damaging to me, I must consider responding, out of
self-defense.

This is all of course a huge waste of time, in that all of our time would
be far better used in working on the encyclopedia.  But--seriously--I
don't see how it can be helped!  For instance, I would like to be able to
take the high road and say, "There's no need to respond to this, I'll just
let thinking people come to whatever conclusions they like."  I wish it
worked that way, but I really don't think it does.  Personal attacks of
all sorts really do have consequences, and if they have even some small
amount of credibility, then if you don't fight back, there are going to be
people who are convinced to some small degree.

Finally, I want to make a distinction--one that is all too easily
blurred, however--between reasonable, constructive criticism on the one
hand, and unfair, misleading attacks.  I welcome constructive criticism.
I don't even demand niceness.  I do generally want fairness, though.

> I'm not trying to offend anyone by this, and I truly hope no offence
> is taken.

No offense taken here.

Larry


body:
OK

I initiated this thread, solely for the purpose of clearing up a quote of mine being used out of context. I named no names, and laid no blame. I felt misrepresented by the quote, and wanted to clarify my position, not spark a conflict.

However, I was probably in error for writing the original post to Wikipedia-L, for which I apologise.

Now I am saying - can we drop it completely? Wikipedia-L is really not a forum for sorting out personal disputes, or criticising individuals.

If you want to criticise a decision, or an action, or an article, or discuss a policy, count me in. But I find expressing contempt for any individual, for any reason, to be unacceptable in this forum.

I'm not trying to offend anyone by this, and I truly hope no offence is taken.

Let's just build the 'pedia.

Warm regards
Manning

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Message attachments

body:
My policy decision on attachments and HTML on mailing lists is that they
are almost always unnecessary and if anybody ever does it, he oughta
suffer the horrible punishment of being told not to do that anymore.

Larry


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fw: New logo

body:
From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com>
> It looks nice; I installed it.

Yep, looks good!

--Larry


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Message attachments

body:
I read my email in mutt, a *nix mail program.  HTML in email is evil
and annoying, I agree.  Attachments are bad news generally speaking.
Nothing good ever comes in an attachment, I always say.  (Yes, I know
I'm wrong, but I say it always anyway. :-) )

--Jimbo

Ben Finney wrote:

> Howdy all,
>
> I'm receiving this list in digest form, as I do with many lists.  Can we
> please have a policy decision on attachments and HTML here?  They are
> completely useless and annoying, and if they are allowed I'll just have
> to unsubscribe and miss out on the useful discussions that happen here.
>
> --
>  \          "Prediction is very hard... especially when it's about the |
>   `\                                           future."  -- Yogi Berra |
> _o__)                                                                  |
> bignose at zip.com.au  F'print 9CFE12B0 791A4267 887F520C B7AC2E51 BD41714B
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
*********************************************************************
*"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its*
* own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but *
* there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be *
*  pursuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can   *
*  certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper    *
********************************************************************


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logos

body:
The logo debate goes on - the last horse in seems to still be the leader. When do we get a decision, Larry, or are you still too busy with conjugal concerns?    :-)

Has anyone seen the recent additions to the original "logo" suggestions page? Some of them are as funny as hell - I don't know who made them, but clearly someone who's been around for a while. Obviously they are not appropriate for the main pedia, but I'd be keen to see if the one about "My encyclopedia can beat up your encyclopedia" has any support for being the META logo.

Personally I like the "One billion unfinished entries served" but there's no way that would fly.

Manning
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from_name: wojtek pobratyn

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fw: New logo

body:
hi.

When editing a page, the bottom of the new logo is cut off. Minor editing of the template should do the job.

+wojpob

ps. I must say I do like the new logo a lot:-)

Larry Sanger <lsanger at nupedia.com> napisa?:

>From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com>
> > It looks nice; I installed it.
>
> Yep, looks good!
>
> --Larry
>
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>
>

--

Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
[ http://oferty.onet.pl ]


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fw: New logo

body:
But, keep a copy of the logo "as it is"; the cut-off won't happen when we
switch to the new script (soon...).

Magnus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com]On Behalf Of wojtek pobratyn
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:47 AM
> To: wikipedia-l at nupedia.com
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Fw: New logo
>
>
> hi.
>
> When editing a page, the bottom of the new logo is cut off. Minor
> editing of the template should do the job.
>
> +wojpob
>
> ps. I must say I do like the new logo a lot:-)
>
>
> Larry Sanger <lsanger at nupedia.com> napisa?:
>
> >From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com>
> > > It looks nice; I installed it.
> >
> > Yep, looks good!
> >
> > --Larry
> >
> > [Wikipedia-l]
> > To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> > http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
> [ http://oferty.onet.pl ]
>
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Ben Finney

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Message attachments

body:
Howdy all,

I'm receiving this list in digest form, as I do with many lists.  Can we
please have a policy decision on attachments and HTML here?  They are
completely useless and annoying, and if they are allowed I'll just have
to unsubscribe and miss out on the useful discussions that happen here.

--
 \          "Prediction is very hard... especially when it's about the |
  `\                                           future."  -- Yogi Berra |
_o__)                                                                  |
bignose at zip.com.au  F'print 9CFE12B0 791A4267 887F520C B7AC2E51 BD41714B


from_name: Tim Chambers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Message attachments

body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> ... HTML in email is evil and annoying, I agree.

I happen to stand for the other side. HTML in email allows for richer
expression of ideas. I like to use italic, bold, numbered and bullet
lists, and (occasionally) tables. I delight in replying to people in
HTML if they send me HTML first.

But I work in a department where most engineers still use elm(1) on HP
UNIX workstations. So I do not cast pearls before swine. (No, Jimmy,
I'm not calling you a pig :-).

Adapting St. Paul's approach to the subject at hand, I will become all
things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some to
realize the benefit of (at least text) e-mail.

On this list, I've been known to write up a wiki page, then I include
a pointer to it in my plain, old boring ASCII text e-mail. That keeps
everyone happy.

<>< [[tbc]]

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
I think this is really great.  I think it would get more traffic if
there was a java interface.

Most sites with live chat don't ever have anyone on, but our uniquely
interactive nature means that there's almost always somebody around.

If we had a web page with a java chat thingy, that'd be cool.  Does
anyone know a good open source answer?

Erik Moeller wrote:

> Hey,
>
> I thought it might be a good idea to have a place to go for real-time
> discussions, since Wikipedia Chat is somewhat slow. So there's now a
>
>   #wikipedia
>
> channel on
>
>   irc.openprojects.net
>
> which is also home to many other open-source projects, so I think it's a
> very good server to be on. Please put in the info in appropriate locations, and
> feel free to drop by any time you like.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
>
> PS: If there already is an IRC channel somewhere, please let me know, I
> didn't find any using the search.
>
> --
> GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
> http://www.gmx.net
>
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
*********************************************************************
*"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its*
* own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but *
* there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be *
*  pursuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can   *
*  certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper    *
********************************************************************


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
Hey,

I thought it might be a good idea to have a place to go for real-time
discussions, since Wikipedia Chat is somewhat slow. So there's now a

  #wikipedia

channel on

  irc.openprojects.net

which is also home to many other open-source projects, so I think it's a
very good server to be on. Please put in the info in appropriate locations, and
feel free to drop by any time you like.

Regards,

Erik

PS: If there already is an IRC channel somewhere, please let me know, I
didn't find any using the search.

--
GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Message attachments

in_reply_to: Tim Chambers's message of "Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:37:36 -0800 (PST)"

body:
Tim Chambers <tbchambers at yahoo.com> writes:

>  I like to use italic, bold, numbered and bullet lists, and (occasionally)
> tables. I delight in replying to people in HTML if they send me HTML first.

Hey, my emailer does
1) *bold*
2) _underline_
3) /italics/
4) lists
        * bulleted
        * non-bulleted

without HTML...
--
Gareth Owen
"Wikipedia does rock.  By the count on the "brilliant prose" page, there
 are 14 not-bad articles so far" -- Larry Sanger (12 Jan 2001)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
> I think this is really great.  I think it would get more traffic if
> there was a java interface.

Hi Jim,

I don't think a Java solution is necessary, IRC clients are available for
all platforms (Mozilla even has one built in). These have the advantage of
being more feature-rich and easy-to-use than their jJva-equivalents. From my own
experience, I would assume that the channel will slowly get larger over time
without much external intervention, but if a quicker growth is desired,
placing a link to Wikipedia Chat  in the menu bar (Home Page | Recent Changes ..)
should suffice; some additional instructions for setting up IRC might be
desirable.

I'm sure there are several Java-applets capable of connecting to a
parametrizable IRC server / channel, though.

Regards,

Erik

--
GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
> IRC is a protocol, which allows anyone to choose their own client.  I'd
> much rather use a client of my choosing (and under my control) than use
> a website where I have to use whatever chat interface has been decided.

I think a simple Java interface would be a great idea, plus a note on how to get to the channel using other clients. To be popular it has to be kept 'simple and stupid'.

+wojpob

--

Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
[ http://oferty.onet.pl ]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Message attachments

body:
Ben Finney <bignose at zip.com.au> writes:

> I'm receiving this list in digest form, as I do with many lists.  Can we
> please have a policy decision on attachments and HTML here?  They are
> completely useless and annoying, [...]

I agree that HTML mails are more noise than signal. Most other
attachements are probably, too. For example, WojPob's icon attachment
was certainly well-meant, but not really useful to the members of this
list who are not Bomis admins (i.e. the large majority).

But I'm also guilty of attaching cryptographic signatures to my mails.
This makes sense from my viewpoint, but if people here find that
annoying, I can turn them off for posting to Wikipedia-L. Unlike X.509
"signatures", PGP's output is quite compact, though...

--
Robbe
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:13:39 -0600, Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> I think this is really great.  I think it would get more traffic if
> there was a java interface.

IRC is a protocol, which allows anyone to choose their own client.  I'd
much rather use a client of my choosing (and under my control) than use
a website where I have to use whatever chat interface has been decided.

> If we had a web page with a java chat thingy, that'd be cool.  Does
> anyone know a good open source answer?

Linux.com, which participates in the OPN, has a page with links to
various clients that can be used.  They also link to a page where they
run a Java client to IRC.

  <http://www.linux.com/interact/live/>

--
 \       "I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me |
  `\                                     as members."  -- Groucho Marx |
_o__)                                                                  |
bignose at zip.com.au  F'print 9CFE12B0 791A4267 887F520C B7AC2E51 BD41714B


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Message attachments

body:
On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 12:01:15PM -0800, wikipedia-l-request at nupedia.com wrote:
> Date:
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:37:36 -0800 (PST), Tim Chambers <tbchambers at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> > ... HTML in email is evil and annoying, I agree.
>
> I happen to stand for the other side. HTML in email allows for richer
> expression of ideas.
> I delight in replying to people in HTML if they
> send me HTML first.

Between people who have already agreed what to send each other, you can
use whatever you like.  But on a mailing list, you can't expect to get
consensus to use anything but what is allowed for by the standard
protocols.

Moreover, to those of us who receive mail in digest form, the HTML and
attachment components of messages are just noise, wasting time and
bandwidth, and making the digest much more difficult to read.

Can we please have the list software drop any attachments?

> I like to use italic, bold, numbered and bullet lists, and
> (occasionally) tables.

There are existing conventions for all of these:

  * list
  * items

*bold text*
/italic text/
_underline text_

Tables are simply aligned columns, since a fixed-width font is assumed.

Is this catering to the lowest common denominator?  Yes, of course,
because that way the content is as accessible as possible.  HTML was
never designed for email, and each client will display it in ways you
can't predict anyway, so imagining you have some sort of layout control
is futile.

> On this list, I've been known to write up a wiki page, then I include
> a pointer to it in my plain, old boring ASCII text e-mail. That keeps
> everyone happy.

Sounds ideal.  Placing "attachment" content on a webpage and providing
the URL allows interested parties to see the content as intended, and
doesn't force it down anyone's badwidth-limited throat.

--
 \      "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything |
  `\                                         you know."  -- Sassan Tat |
_o__)                                                                  |
bignose at zip.com.au  F'print 9CFE12B0 791A4267 887F520C B7AC2E51 BD41714B


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
Has anyone written some instructions on how to use this, for people who
don't know?  That would be a great service.

Larry
(newly arrived in Longmont, Colorado)

On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> Ben Finney wrote:
> > On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:13:39 -0600, Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> > > I think this is really great.  I think it would get more traffic if
> > > there was a java interface.
> >
> > IRC is a protocol, which allows anyone to choose their own client.  I'd
> > much rather use a client of my choosing (and under my control) than use
> > a website where I have to use whatever chat interface has been decided.
>
> Oh, I totally agree!  I'm just saying that many people don't use IRC,
> don't have a client installed, and would yet be interested.  We
> already get enough accusations of shadowy conspiracies, so if we're
> going to be in chat while we edit, we should at least make sure that
> basically anyone can join in.  :-)
>
> > > If we had a web page with a java chat thingy, that'd be cool.  Does
> > > anyone know a good open source answer?
> >
> > Linux.com, which participates in the OPN, has a page with links to
> > various clients that can be used.  They also link to a page where they
> > run a Java client to IRC.
> >
> >   <http://www.linux.com/interact/live/>
>
> Very good.  I'll look into this.
>
> --Jimbo
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New York Times Magazine writeup

in_reply_to: <200112092351.AAA03433@linde.uni-paderborn.de>; from axel@uni-paderborn.de on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 12:51:19AM +0100

body:
Sweet.  I was interviewed a couple of days ago by a tech writer for
the Associated Press, so I expect to see something there in a few days.

Axel Boldt wrote:

> Today's New York Times Magazine has a long list of ideas which they
> call "The Year in Ideas". One of those ideas is "Populist Editing",
> which , you guessed it, is about Wikis in general and Wikipedia in
> particular. Very positive writeup.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/09/magazine/09POPULIST.html
>
> Axel
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
*********************************************************************
*"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its*
* own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but *
* there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be *
*  pursuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can   *
*  certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper    *
********************************************************************


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
Ben Finney wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:13:39 -0600, Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> > I think this is really great.  I think it would get more traffic if
> > there was a java interface.
>
> IRC is a protocol, which allows anyone to choose their own client.  I'd
> much rather use a client of my choosing (and under my control) than use
> a website where I have to use whatever chat interface has been decided.

Oh, I totally agree!  I'm just saying that many people don't use IRC,
don't have a client installed, and would yet be interested.  We
already get enough accusations of shadowy conspiracies, so if we're
going to be in chat while we edit, we should at least make sure that
basically anyone can join in.  :-)

> > If we had a web page with a java chat thingy, that'd be cool.  Does
> > anyone know a good open source answer?
>
> Linux.com, which participates in the OPN, has a page with links to
> various clients that can be used.  They also link to a page where they
> run a Java client to IRC.
>
>   <http://www.linux.com/interact/live/>

Very good.  I'll look into this.

--Jimbo


from_name: Axel Boldt

body:
Today's New York Times Magazine has a long list of ideas which they
call "The Year in Ideas". One of those ideas is "Populist Editing",
which , you guessed it, is about Wikis in general and Wikipedia in
particular. Very positive writeup.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/09/magazine/09POPULIST.html

Axel


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
Actually, I have used IRC, many years ago (ANd come to think of it, we did
some sort of IRC chat on Nupedia recently, too.)  I generally share your
opinion of it, but it can sometimes be kind of fun.  I just thought it
would be a great thing, if we *are* going to have a Wikipedia channel, to
have pointers to instructions on how to get to it.

Larry

On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:

>
>
> > Has anyone written some instructions on how to use this,
> > for people who don't know?  That would be a great service.
>
> If you've never used IRC and don't know how, count
> yourself lucky.  Nothing positive has ever come from
> realtime chat.  Wikipedia is already a little to close
> to "realtime" for me; I like to have a bit of time to
> think about what I'm going to say before I start typing.
> 0


from_name: Julie Kemp

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re Realtime chat

body:
Let me first say I love real-time chat as a rule.
That said, I would love to chat with lots of the folks
on the 'pedia, but would also not like the idea that
someone could immediately interrupt editing with
chats.  The up side is that it would really help with
collaboration.  The downside is that I think that the
pedia may not be at a point where users would not
first use it for flaming or jumping in to grind axes.
Having a block mode would help, but then those
conspiracy accusations would rear their ugly heads.
<hoping that y'all realize I'm still interested in the
wikipedia and don't think I'm being a hypocrite by
adding my $.02>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia Real Time Chat

body:
On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 12:27:52PM -0800, Larry Sanger wrote:
> Actually, I have used IRC, many years ago (ANd come to think of it, we did
> some sort of IRC chat on Nupedia recently, too.)  I generally share your
> opinion of it, but it can sometimes be kind of fun.  I just thought it
> would be a great thing, if we *are* going to have a Wikipedia channel, to
> have pointers to instructions on how to get to it.

It all depends on the channel, not IRC. I get good help regularly from
open source project members on IRC.

--
Dr. David C. Merrill                     http://www.lupercalia.net
Linux Documentation Project                   david at lupercalia.net
Collection Editor & Coordinator            http://www.linuxdoc.org

Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time.
	--US Navy Fleet Introduction deputy director Ron Redman
	  explaining why the Navy uses NT


subject: [Wikipedia-l] uploading

body:
hi all.

i saw that people upload pictures to the wikipedia site. how do you do this??? did i miss something?? i've got a few pictures handy that i would like to share. uploading them to the meta site won't make much sense.

regards,
+wojpob

--

Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
[ http://oferty.onet.pl ]


from_name: rose.parks at att.net

subject: [Wikipedia-l] uploading

body:
Hi-

     I'm sure someone can give you a more detailed,
technical explanation, however...
     You do upload you graphic to the meta site. This
will make a page with your graphic on the meta site. You
can locate this by going to the -Upload Files- link on
the right of meta.wikipedia. On this page will be a
table of links to to pages with the graphics. Go to the
page with your uploaded graphic. Then, from the regular
wikipedia, put in the url from the meta.wikipedia page
with your graphic.
     Such a url looks like:

http://meta.wikipedia.com/upload/cell_cycle.png

     Well, I tried...

           As Ever,

              Ruth Ifcher

--

> hi all.
>
> i saw that people upload pictures to the wikipedia site. how do you do this???
> did i miss something?? i've got a few pictures handy that i would like to share.
> uploading them to the meta site won't make much sense.
>
> regards,
> +wojpob
>
>
> --
>
> Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
> [ http://oferty.onet.pl ]
>
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Michel Clasquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fwd: AbiWord 0.9.6 with wikipedia plugin

body:
This may be of interest to wikipedians ...

-----------------------
	   Abiword 0.9.6 has been released. Along with the usual bugfixes,
translations, and new features you normally have come to expect with each
abiword release, release 0.9.6 also comes with a number of useful
plugins. In particular:

wikipedia plugin lookup an encylopedic reference from the web.
<snip>

--
Michel Clasquin, D Litt et Phil (Unisa)
clasqm at mweb.co.za/unisa.ac.za   http://www.geocities.com/clasqm
This message was posted from a Microsoft-free PC

f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n nx dmnstrtn


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia bookmarklet

in_reply_to: <200112200018.BAA14974@linde.uni-paderborn.de>; from axel@uni-paderborn.de on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 01:18:40AM +0100

body:
Here's my version...

http://www.wikipedia.com/texts/magic_button.html

I can't load Axel's page (is the url right, Axel?) but if I could, I'm
sure his bookmarklets are better than mine.  But ! my Netscape
version, which I use personally every day, works great!

We can't really put these on the wiki directly, because the javascript
breaks the page, I think.

Axel Boldt wrote:

> I have tried to make bookmarklets for Internet Explorer and Netscape
> which allow you to quickly do a search on
> Wikipedia: you highlight any term on a web page, click on the
> bookmarklet, and a Wikipedia search on that term will be started. The
> Netscape version doesn't quite work yet. If any Javascript hackers
> could fix it, I would appreciate it.
>
> You can find them here:
>
> http://home.metrostate.edu/~Axel%20Boldt/bookmarklet.html
>
> Axel
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
*********************************************************************
*"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its*
* own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but *
* there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be *
*  pursuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can   *
*  certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper    *
********************************************************************


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia bookmarklet

body:
I have tried to make bookmarklets for Internet Explorer and Netscape
which allow you to quickly do a search on
Wikipedia: you highlight any term on a web page, click on the
bookmarklet, and a Wikipedia search on that term will be started. The
Netscape version doesn't quite work yet. If any Javascript hackers
could fix it, I would appreciate it.

You can find them here:

http://home.metrostate.edu/~Axel%20Boldt/bookmarklet.html

Axel


subject: [Wikipedia-l] NPR interview mentions Wikipedia!

body:
Quoted from a recent addition to Wikipedia Announcements:

National Public Radio ("future tense") this morning featured an interview
with Ward Cunningham, the inventor of the Wiki concept. Wikipedia was
mentioned repeatedly, along with its URL. A [real audio version of the
interview] is available.

Quotes from Ward:

"The Wiki concept is much closer to the way the web was initially intended
than static web pages."
"I'd much rather have a community than a shopping mall."

Here's the URL for program:

http://news.mpr.org/programs/futuretense/daily_rafiles/20011220.ram

Larry


body:
What's really cool about it is that, although it sounds like a paid ad, we
completely lack the money for such an ad!  So, it's for free!

Except, of course, that Americans have already paid for it via our taxes
and donations to NPR.  :-)

Larry

On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, wojtek pobratyn wrote:

> David Merrill <david at lupercalia.net> napisa?:
>
> >
> > Cool. Very cool.
> >
>
> Yep. Very cool - it sounded like a paid add though (that's W-I-K-I-P-E-D-I-A-DOT-COM :-)))
>
> regards
> wojpob
>
>
>
>
>


body:
On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 01:49:42PM -0800, Larry Sanger wrote:
> Quoted from a recent addition to Wikipedia Announcements:
>
> National Public Radio ("future tense") this morning featured an interview
> with Ward Cunningham, the inventor of the Wiki concept. Wikipedia was
> mentioned repeatedly, along with its URL. A [real audio version of the
> interview] is available.

Cool. Very cool.

We are coming up on our one year anniversary, and closing the gap on
20,000 articles. The progress for only one year of work is
astonishing.

We could probably get another Slashdot story on our anniversary.

--
Dr. David C. Merrill                     http://www.lupercalia.net
Linux Documentation Project                   david at lupercalia.net
Collection Editor & Coordinator            http://www.linuxdoc.org

Three from the hall beneath the tree
	Is, Was, and Shall Be
Come Wyrd Sisters swoop to the ground
Loosen the web that binds us down
Join with the hands of the Weavers Three
	Is, Was, and Shall Be
		-- Is, Was, and Shall Be, Beverly Frederick


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New statement of nonbias policy

body:
Please see

http://meta.wikipedia.com/wiki.phtml?title=Neutral_point_of_view--draft

for the text I propose to put on

http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki.cgi?Neutral_point_of_view

Basically, I think the "neutral point of view" page text needs to be
completely rewritten, so as to address common objections.  It also needs
to give some more of the background/motivation behind the policy, and beat
people over the head with the idea that it's not actually
*philosophically* contentious, contrary to popular misunderstanding.

Larry


from_name: Taral

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bookmarklets

body:
On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:32:05AM +0100, Axel Boldt wrote:
> Ok, so our server went down; I've put the bookmarklets now on
> http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/bookmarklet.html

Replace:

s=frames[i].document.getSelection();if(s)break;

with:

if(s)break;s=frames[i].document.getSelection();

Also, the newlines around "search terms for" don't turn into spaces in
Mozilla. So I see "Entersearch terms forWikipedia".

Otherwise, it works great!

--
Taral <taral at taral.net>
This message is digitally signed. Please PGP encrypt mail to me.
"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't
understand it." -- Florence Ambrose
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Netscape bookmarklet

body:
On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 09:14:52PM -0600, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> wikiw=open('http://wikipedia.com/'+(s?'search.fcgi?request='+escape(s):''));

Isn't that usually window.open?

--
Taral <taral at taral.net>
This message is digitally signed. Please PGP encrypt mail to me.
"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't
understand it." -- Florence Ambrose
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bookmarklets

in_reply_to: <200112210032.BAA21700@linde.uni-paderborn.de>; from axel@uni-paderborn.de on Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:32:05AM +0100

body:
Axel, I'm planning to test your Netscape version versus my Netscape
version on Linux, Windows, and Mac.  Then I'll pick the one that works
best, or figure out any bugs if they exist.

May I copy these to the Wikipedia server when I'm done?

Axel Boldt wrote:

> Ok, so our server went down; I've put the bookmarklets now on
> http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/bookmarklet.html
>
> Axel
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
*********************************************************************
*"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its*
* own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but *
* there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be *
*  pursuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can   *
*  certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper    *
********************************************************************


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Netscape bookmarklet

body:
I've formatted both of these for easy reading, in case some Javascript
geniuses can help us.

Axel's version (which ignores selected text):

javascript:
s=document.getSelection();
for(i=0;i<frames.length;i++){
	s=frames[i].document.getSelection();
	if(s)break;
	}
if(!s)void(s=prompt('Entersearch terms forWikipedia',''));
wikiw=open('http://wikipedia.com/'+(s?'search.fcgi?request='+escape(s):''));
wikiw.focus();

My version (which works on Netscape for Linux, not sure about others
yet):

javascript:
q=document.getSelection()
;for(i=0;i<frames.length;i++){
	q=frames[i].document.getSelection();
	if(q)break;
	}
if(!q)void(q=prompt('Enter text to search using Wikipedia. You can also highlight a word on this
web page before clicking Wikipedia.',''));
if(q)location.href='http://www.wikipedia.com/search.fcgi?client=magic_button&request='+escape(q)

---------

My version doesn't pop a new window for Wikipedia -- it just takes you
there.  His version pops a new window and gives it focus.  I prefer
mine, but perhaps other people would prefer his?

Also, mine works, but I'm not sure why his doesn't.


body:
David Merrill <david at lupercalia.net> napisa?:

>
> Cool. Very cool.
>

Yep. Very cool - it sounded like a paid add though (that's W-I-K-I-P-E-D-I-A-DOT-COM :-)))

regards
wojpob

--

Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
[ http://oferty.onet.pl ]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bookmarklets

body:
Ok, so our server went down; I've put the bookmarklets now on
http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/bookmarklet.html

Axel


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Intlwiki-l] New toys at the PHP script test site

body:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Magnus Manske wrote:

> Here's my Christmas present for you all: New features for the PHP
> script to come!
>
> Probably the most important one is the "interlanguage" feature. Just
> for German right now, but is can be easily extended for other
> languages as well. I set up an example at
> http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/fpw/wiki.phtml?title=Vikings where I
> added "[[de:Wikinger]]" to the text (it doesn't matter where the link
> is within the text). Now, I have the "de" namespace internally defined
> as a language namespace, going to the German wikipedia. The "de:" link
> is NOT displayed within the text, but in the article header, as you
> can see. The "Deutsch" link goes straight to the "Wikinger" article in
> the German wikipedia.

Something like this might indeed be the ideal *technical* solution to the
language coordination problem.  It allows us to sidestep the question
whether articles should be translations of each other, while facilitating
interlinking.  I have one question about this implementation of the
solution, though: we don't really want the English language as the "main"
namespace, with other languages living at other namespaces, eh?  After
all, they too will want separate talk ("Rede") pages...shouldn't they be
on completely different (but automatically interlinked) wikis?

One problem with the wording, "This article is available in Deutsch," is
that it implies that the German article is the *same* article (translated)
as the one in English.  That might not at all be the case; but we might
nevertheless like to have two entirely different articles on the same
subject interlinked.  Then, bilingual people can go in and adjust them so
that the strengths of each are reflected in both.  Better wording, anyway:
"There's also an article on this topic in Deutsch" or just "Other
languages: Deutsch."

I think this will work!  One nice thing about it, by the way, is that it
allows us easily, by hand, to go in and translate titles.  This could
really help the non-English Wikipedias to take off!

> This is only the first step. As I explained elsewhere, once all
> wikipedias are changed to the PHP script, these links can be collected
> automatically (say, each day or each week), and ensure all existing
> language versions are interlinked properly.

What exactly do you mean by "these links can be collected automatically"?

> Another toy is the "contributions" link on every user page. Try mine,
> for example, at
> http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/fpw/wiki.phtml?title=user:Magnus_Manske.
> The "This user's contributions" link at the top goes to a page with a
> list of all articles I ever edited, according to the database. (These
> are only the edits I did on the test site, of course).

Very interesting.  Why not?

> Finally, a minor thing : On Recent Changes, all edits that were made
> anonymously have the IP marked in red; as most vandals don't have a
> user name, it might be of advantage to spot every anonymous edit
> easily.

Well, I doubt it.  We can spot IPs very easily in black.  Putting it in
red reminds people, "Stop!  Danger!  Anonymous person!"  While some of us
might have that reaction, it's better not to so obviously flag people like
this.  I mean, we don't want to discourage anonymous contributors.

> Don't get run over by a reindeer, (why don't we have a [[reindeer]]
> article on the 'pedia???) Magnus

Yep, happy holidays and all that, good work Magnus,
Larry


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New toys at the PHP script test site

body:
Here's my Christmas present for you all: New features for the PHP script to
come!

Probably the most important one is the "interlanguage" feature. Just for
German right now, but is can be easily extended for other languages as well.
I set up an example at
http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/fpw/wiki.phtml?title=Vikings where I added
"[[de:Wikinger]]" to the text (it doesn't matter where the link is within
the text). Now, I have the "de" namespace internally defined as a language
namespace, going to the German wikipedia. The "de:" link is NOT displayed
within the text, but in the article header, as you can see. The "Deutsch"
link goes straight to the "Wikinger" article in the German wikipedia.

This is only the first step. As I explained elsewhere, once all wikipedias
are changed to the PHP script, these links can be collected automatically
(say, each day or each week), and ensure all existing language versions are
interlinked properly.

Another toy is the "contributions" link on every user page. Try mine, for
example, at
http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/fpw/wiki.phtml?title=user:Magnus_Manske.
The "This user's contributions" link at the top goes to a page with a list
of all articles I ever edited, according to the database. (These are only
the edits I did on the test site, of course).

Finally, a minor thing : On Recent Changes, all edits that were made
anonymously have the IP marked in red; as most vandals don't have a user
name, it might be of advantage to spot every anonymous edit easily.

Don't get run over by a reindeer, (why don't we have a [[reindeer]] article
on the 'pedia???)
Magnus


body:
Well, of course, you can write [[de:talk:Wikinger]] to link to the talk page
of the Wikinger article on the German wikipedia! (Or whatever the German
talkspace will be; I didn't really work on this yet)

With "automatic collection" I mean this: The U.S. article (should the
interneation wikipedia be "us:" namespace??) links to the German article.
The German one, in turn, links to the Spanish one. The Spanish article links
to the French one and so on. But, we'd like to have *every* language link to
*every* other verion of this article, right? So, instead of manually putting
dozens of links into dozens of versions of the same article, let a script go
through *all* wikipedias once a day/week/lifetime and update them. Of
course, if you *insist* of doing this manually...

I'll change the IP edits back to black.

Magnus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com]On Behalf Of Larry Sanger
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 9:02 PM
> To: Intlwiki-L at Nupedia. Com
> Cc: Wikipedia-L at Nupedia. Com
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Intlwiki-l] New toys at the PHP script test
> site
>
>
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Magnus Manske wrote:
>
> > Here's my Christmas present for you all: New features for the PHP
> > script to come!
> >
> > Probably the most important one is the "interlanguage" feature. Just
> > for German right now, but is can be easily extended for other
> > languages as well. I set up an example at
> > http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/fpw/wiki.phtml?title=Vikings where I
> > added "[[de:Wikinger]]" to the text (it doesn't matter where the link
> > is within the text). Now, I have the "de" namespace internally defined
> > as a language namespace, going to the German wikipedia. The "de:" link
> > is NOT displayed within the text, but in the article header, as you
> > can see. The "Deutsch" link goes straight to the "Wikinger" article in
> > the German wikipedia.
>
> Something like this might indeed be the ideal *technical* solution to the
> language coordination problem.  It allows us to sidestep the question
> whether articles should be translations of each other, while facilitating
> interlinking.  I have one question about this implementation of the
> solution, though: we don't really want the English language as the "main"
> namespace, with other languages living at other namespaces, eh?  After
> all, they too will want separate talk ("Rede") pages...shouldn't they be
> on completely different (but automatically interlinked) wikis?
>
> One problem with the wording, "This article is available in Deutsch," is
> that it implies that the German article is the *same* article (translated)
> as the one in English.  That might not at all be the case; but we might
> nevertheless like to have two entirely different articles on the same
> subject interlinked.  Then, bilingual people can go in and adjust them so
> that the strengths of each are reflected in both.  Better wording, anyway:
> "There's also an article on this topic in Deutsch" or just "Other
> languages: Deutsch."
>
> I think this will work!  One nice thing about it, by the way, is that it
> allows us easily, by hand, to go in and translate titles.  This could
> really help the non-English Wikipedias to take off!
>
> > This is only the first step. As I explained elsewhere, once all
> > wikipedias are changed to the PHP script, these links can be collected
> > automatically (say, each day or each week), and ensure all existing
> > language versions are interlinked properly.
>
> What exactly do you mean by "these links can be collected automatically"?
>
> > Another toy is the "contributions" link on every user page. Try mine,
> > for example, at
> >
http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/fpw/wiki.phtml?title=user:Magnus_Manske.
> The "This user's contributions" link at the top goes to a page with a
> list of all articles I ever edited, according to the database. (These
> are only the edits I did on the test site, of course).

Very interesting.  Why not?

> Finally, a minor thing : On Recent Changes, all edits that were made
> anonymously have the IP marked in red; as most vandals don't have a
> user name, it might be of advantage to spot every anonymous edit
> easily.

Well, I doubt it.  We can spot IPs very easily in black.  Putting it in
red reminds people, "Stop!  Danger!  Anonymous person!"  While some of us
might have that reaction, it's better not to so obviously flag people like
this.  I mean, we don't want to discourage anonymous contributors.

> Don't get run over by a reindeer, (why don't we have a [[reindeer]]
> article on the 'pedia???) Magnus

Yep, happy holidays and all that, good work Magnus,
Larry

[Wikipedia-l]
To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia.tv

body:
hi all.

just a note to the bomis admins: wikipedia.tv points to nupedia and most of the mySQL stuff doesn't work. wikipedia.info on the other hand has been registered by jimmy but doesn't seem to point anywhere. hmm,....

regards,
wojpob

--

Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
[ http://oferty.onet.pl ]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] AP article is out!

body:
Read it, for example, on Yahoo:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011217/tc/ye_internet_public_spaces_1.html

Merry Christmas!

Larry


subject: [Wikipedia-l] AP article is out!

body:
Caution: this is an editorial in which I express personal opinions
beyond the scope of Wikipedia, and most certainly not in NPOV.  :-)

---
I feel compelled to point out that I in no way agree with the thesis
of the AP article, and feel that this is a prime example of how biased
journalists pursue their agendas.

You'll notice that there are no quotes from me in the article -- the
reason is that the reporter asked me a series of leading questions,
trying to get me to bash commercialization on the Internet, or to
support public spending on content, and I refused to take the bait.

To detect the bias, notice how he compares Wikipedia's *contributors*
to AOL/Time-Warner's *visitors*.  Comparing our *visitors* to their
*visitors* would have been compelling enough -- they're big and we're
small, no shock there.  Is there any reason, though, to think that a
single project (an encyclopedia) will have traffic that is similar in
any way to a vast conglomerate?  Clearly, the answer is NO, so what's
the point of the comparison?

A better comparison, but not helpful to him in grinding his axe, would
be between traffic to AOL/Time-Warner's "broadcast" pages versus their
"community" pages.  What he would find is that AOL/Time-Warner's
traffic is primarily a function of their providing a space for free,
non-commercial community activity... paid for with commercials!  This
is only a paradox to people too anti-capitalist to think in anything
other than a complete intellectual fog.

Another good comparison would be between the traffic of Wikipedia and
the traffic of Britannica -- I do not have recent numbers, but a
couple of summers ago, Britannica reported 30 million pageviews in a
month -- whereas Wikipedia is currently at around 1.5 million a month.
I'm sure they are higher than 30 million now, but call it 50 million
or 100 million -- we're still coming on strong, and growing 30% a
month or more.

I disagree entirely with the thesis that there is a lack of
"nonprofit" or "community" activity on the net.  I disagree entirely
with the notion that a few big corporations are in a position to
control the content of the net.  But I most MOST strongly disagree
with the idea that anyone who is unhappy with the state of the
Internet has the right to use *force* (i.e. money stolen by the
government) to pursue their agenda.  There's no more effective way to
ensure the death of true grassroots activity than to set up tax-funded
competition for it.

This guy reminds me of the anti-globalization pinheads who think that
any form of commercialism is necessarily corrupt.

The best thing I can say for this article is that at least he spelled
my name correctly, and I can only most sincerely hope that we are not
inundated with goofballs who agree with him, and who want to turn
wikipedia into some kind of anti-freedom editorial statement.

--Jimbo


from_name: Ian

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia.tv

body:
I think its a better idea to have the extras domains point to nowhere then
to a broken page. Its just important that Bomis own them.

Ian Monroe
http://mlug.missouri.edu/~eean/

On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, wojtek pobratyn wojpob at poczta.onet.pl XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX wrote:

> hi all.
>
> just a note to the bomis admins: wikipedia.tv points to nupedia and most of the mySQL stuff doesn't work. wikipedia.info on the other hand has been registered by jimmy but doesn't seem to point anywhere. hmm,....
>
> regards,
> wojpob
>
>
> --
>
> Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
> [ http://oferty.onet.pl ]
>
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bookmarklets

body:
These are cool!  Thanks, Axel!

On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Axel Boldt wrote:

> Jimbo, the bookmarklets at
>
>   http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/bookmarklet.html
>
> are in the public domain, so please put them up on the server
> somewhere. They both work now. Apparently, you cannot try out the
> Netscape one directly from the page, you first have to add it to the
> bookmark list.
>
> Axel
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia.tv

body:
We're in the middle of a major migration from one server facility to
another one.  When I'm doing, I'm going to go through all the domains
that I own and make sure they all point somewhere non-stupid.  :-)

--Jimbo

Ian wrote:

> I think its a better idea to have the extras domains point to nowhere then
> to a broken page. Its just important that Bomis own them.
>
> Ian Monroe
> http://mlug.missouri.edu/~eean/
>
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, wojtek pobratyn wojpob at poczta.onet.pl XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
> > hi all.
> >
> > just a note to the bomis admins: wikipedia.tv points to nupedia and most of the mySQL stuff doesn't work. wikipedia.info on the other hand has been registered by jimmy but doesn't seem to point anywhere. hmm,....
> >
> > regards,
> > wojpob
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!
> > [ http://oferty.onet.pl ]
> >
> > [Wikipedia-l]
> > To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> > http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
*********************************************************************
*"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its*
* own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but *
* there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be *
*  pursuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can   *
*  certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper    *
********************************************************************


from_name: sgilbert at nbnet.nb.ca

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l digest, Vol 1 #240 - 1 msg

body:
> This guy reminds me of the anti-globalization pinheads who think that
> any form of commercialism is necessarily corrupt.

Of course, not everyone protesting "globalization" is against all
forms of commercialism... or is a pinhead. ;-)

Stephen Gilbert


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bookmarklets

body:
Jimbo, the bookmarklets at

  http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/bookmarklet.html

are in the public domain, so please put them up on the server
somewhere. They both work now. Apparently, you cannot try out the
Netscape one directly from the page, you first have to add it to the
bookmark list.

Axel


in_reply_to: <3C2A2ED9.20499.1F3BE23@localhost>; from sgilbert@nbnet.nb.ca on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 08:11:05PM -0400

body:
sgilbert at nbnet.nb.ca wrote:
> > This guy reminds me of the anti-globalization pinheads who think that
> > any form of commercialism is necessarily corrupt.
>
> Of course, not everyone protesting "globalization" is against all
> forms of commercialism... or is a pinhead. ;-)

No, of course you are right about that.  It's a diverse movement.

--Jimbo


from_name: Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Send this article to your friend

body:
Hello all,

As suggested on meta wikipedia site it might be useful to
have 'Send this article to your friend' link in footer
of all Wikipedia articles (except Talk pages ?).

There are two clear uses of this link :
1. invite someone to take part or take interest in Wikipedia
2. invite someone to solicit comment or review of an article

It would be wise to take precautions against abuse of this feature.
Limit the number of copies, log users etc

Regards,
kpj.
--
Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz, M.D
Pierwsza Polska Wolna Encyklopedia Sieciowa - TY te? mo?esz j? tworzy?
zajrzyj na : http://wiki.rozeta.com.pl/


from_name: Robert Bihlmeyer

body:
"Magnus Manske" <Magnus.Manske at epost.de> writes:

> Well, of course, you can write [[de:talk:Wikinger]] to link to the talk page
> of the Wikinger article on the German wikipedia!

I think namespace and language should be orthogonal. Unless we can
unambigously discern language codes and namespace names, a different
delmiter should be used. One could mandate namespaces to have at least
four letters, though.

> With "automatic collection" I mean this: The U.S. article (should the
> interneation wikipedia be "us:" namespace??) links to the German
> article.

Eh, eh, its an /English/ article, so its code should be en.

I think this automatic collection that runs off-line once a day/week
is flawed. Imagine pages [[en:A]] and [[de:A]]; someone points to
the second in the first. The collection will add a link back from
[[de:A]] to [[en:A]]. Later [[en:A]] is split into [[en:A1]] and
[[en:A2]] and the link to [[de:A]] is put into A1, not A2. What will
the robot do with this situation? What if [[de:A]] were also split
before the collection takes place forming something like:

  en:A -> en:A1 =====> de:A -> de:A1 =====> en:A
       -> en:A2             -> de:A2

IMO it is easier to just keep the equivalence information in an area
separate from any specific language and always up-to-the-minute. So if
someone changes the information "en:A is equivalent to de:A" to "en:A1
is equivalent to de:A" all consequences are propagated immediately.

--
Robbe
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body:
"Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz" <kpj at kki.net.pl> writes:

> It would be wise to take precautions against abuse of this feature.
> Limit the number of copies, log users etc

Just noting the whole IP of the requestor in the headers of the mail
should be enough.

--
Robbe
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body:
> I think namespace and language should be orthogonal. Unless we can
> unambigously discern language codes and namespace names, a different
> delmiter should be used. One could mandate namespaces to have at least
> four letters, though.

I'd prefer to keep the : as delimiter for both. This is, of course, only my
opinion, based on the fact that it would mean a major rewrite of some parts
of the software;)
Really, I think mostly "old folks" will do the interlinking anyway, and
they'll know the differences. I doubt many people will come in, have a look,
and make  an interlink as their first try. I'm not saying "f**k the
newcomers" (we all were, once), but this *is* a little more difficult than
fixing a typo, no matter how you design interface and data structure.

> > With "automatic collection" I mean this: The U.S. article (should the
> > interneation wikipedia be "us:" namespace??) links to the German
> > article.
>
> Eh, eh, its an /English/ article, so its code should be en.

Yeah, someone mentioned this already (I think Larry?).

> IMO it is easier to just keep the equivalence information in an area
> separate from any specific language and always up-to-the-minute. So if
> someone changes the information "en:A is equivalent to de:A" to "en:A1
> is equivalent to de:A" all consequences are propagated immediately.

My idea was to give the crowd a way to interlink the articles at all, if
only manually, in the beginning.
An additional script could then bind them together (no, I didn't overdose on
"Lord of the Rings";)
The obvious way is to use these "fake namespaces" for normal links within
the article. But, any automatic interlinking then means to alter one or
several article bodies (usually, appending links) across wikipedias. Doing
this in runtime might prove much more difficult than doing it once a week in
one "flush".

So, what I'm trying to say is, IMO we should switch scripts (soon), have the
"manual mode", wait until things are running smoothly again, and then we'll
see.

Saying "running smoothly": Is wikipedia currently switching servers? I get
lots of 400 errors...

Magnus


from_name: Simon Kissane

body:
--- Magnus Manske <Magnus.Manske at epost.de> wrote:
> > I think namespace and language should be
> > orthogonal. Unless we can unambigously discern
> > language codes and namespace names, a different
> > delmiter should be used. One could mandate
> > namespaces to have at least four letters, though.
>
> I'd prefer to keep the : as delimiter for both. This
> is, of course, only my opinion, based on the fact
> that it would mean a major rewrite of some parts
> of the software;)
I suggest we reserve two-letter namespaces for
interlinking to other language wikipedias. Thus, we
should stop anyone from creating a two-letter
namespace. Also, I suggest we use alpha-2 ISO 639
language codes (en, de, fr, etc.). ISO 639 alpha-2
codes can represent all the major modern languages.
(Of course, if someone wants to start up a Wikipedia
in some obscure language like Old Avestan, then you'd
need to use an ISO 639 alpha-3 code to represent it.
So maybe we should also reserve three letter
namespaces as well, for languages without alpha-2
codes.)

[snip]
Simon J Kissane

__________________________________________________
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from_name: lcrocker at nupedia.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Incorrect HTML encoding--something new?

body:
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from_name: Carey Evans

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Incorrect HTML encoding--something new?

body:
lcrocker at nupedia.com writes:

> I'm not sure when it happened, but somewhere the main Wikipedia site
> started putting out HTML with:
>
>   ?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?
>   ...
>   !DOCTYPE html
>   PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML Basic 1.0//EN"
>   ...

I believe this changed just a few days to a week before I added my bug
report to http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Wikipedia_bugs on 17 November.
It's rather obvious in Mozilla and Netscape 6, because the DOCTYPE
triggers strict parsing mode and the tag soup method of nested <DL>
elements for indents stops working.

--
	 Carey Evans  http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/c.evans/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Meta.wikipedia has been down for a number of days

in_reply_to: <20020101205809.EOGR13869.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>; from rose.parks@att.net on Tue, Jan 01, 2002 at 08:58:09PM +0000

body:
Hi!  Yes, I am aware of the problem with meta.wikipedia, but I'm
somewhat unqualified to fix it.  I'm studying the issue, but I know
very little about the programming of Magnus's system.  The weird thing
is that although the physical machine has physically moved, nothing
has changed (of which I am aware, anyhow) about the setup of the
machine.

As for this xml stuff, I have no idea where it came from, but at least
I *am* qualified to fix this. :-) And so, I shall.

> > I'm not sure when it happened, but somewhere the main Wikipedia site
> > started putting out HTML with:
> >
> >   ?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?
> >   ...
> >   !DOCTYPE html
> >   PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML Basic 1.0//EN"
> >   ...
> >
> > None of the above is even close to the truth, and for the code to
> > claim it is will cause many problems.  The HTTP headers simply claim
> > that the text is "HTML" and that the encoding is "ISO-8859-1", both
> > of which are accurate and useful; this is the way UseMod has always
> > worked and still does, so I don't know where the new stuff came from.
> > This needs to be fixed.
> >
> > "Meta" is too broken now for me to check.
> 0
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
*********************************************************************
*"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its*
* own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but *
* there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be *
*  pursuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can   *
*  certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper    *
********************************************************************


subject: [Wikipedia-l] O.k., I give up

body:
I obviously have no idea what I'm doing, so I was unable to fix
meta.wikipedia.com.  Jason will be at work tomorrow, he'll know what
to do.

Obviously before we go live with Magnus's software, I'm going to have
to take a crash course in php and related matters so that I can
reliably fix little things that go wrong.  :-(

--Jimbo


body:
Thank you Mr. Crocker for reminding me. Yes -
meta.wikipedia.com  has been showing MySQL errors for at
least five days and is unusable. All the previous
content no longer displays either.
     I hope someone is trying to correct this.

          As Ever,

            Ruth Ifcher

--

> I'm not sure when it happened, but somewhere the main Wikipedia site
> started putting out HTML with:
>
>   ?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?
>   ...
>   !DOCTYPE html
>   PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML Basic 1.0//EN"
>   ...
>
> None of the above is even close to the truth, and for the code to
> claim it is will cause many problems.  The HTTP headers simply claim
> that the text is "HTML" and that the encoding is "ISO-8859-1", both
> of which are accurate and useful; this is the way UseMod has always
> worked and still does, so I don't know where the new stuff came from.
> This needs to be fixed.
>
> "Meta" is too broken now for me to check.
0


subject: [Wikipedia-l] O.k., I fixed it

body:
http://meta.wikipedia.com/ is fixed.  And I learned (the hard way!)
some new things!

Jimmy Wales wrote:

>
> I obviously have no idea what I'm doing, so I was unable to fix
> meta.wikipedia.com.  Jason will be at work tomorrow, he'll know what
> to do.
>
> Obviously before we go live with Magnus's software, I'm going to have
> to take a crash course in php and related matters so that I can
> reliably fix little things that go wrong.  :-(
>
> --Jimbo
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
*********************************************************************
*"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its*
* own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but *
* there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be *
*  pursuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can   *
*  certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Jeff Cooper    *
********************************************************************


subject: [Wikipedia-l] O.k., I fixed it

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from_name: Larry Sanger

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Categories in the PHP script

body:
Magnus, can you give me an example of a post or just some point that
someone has made, that constituted a feature requirement such that this
feature in particular is supposed to fulfill it?  There's so much that has
been said on the topic of categories that I can't remember.  I mean, I'd
like to see the feature requirements at the same time we see the feature,
so that we can compare the two.

I do remember one feature that I asked for, along with Jimbo (in at least
one form--the feature, not Jimbo), and perhaps some other people, that
this might help with.  Namely, "Recent Changes" has gotten perhaps so
large as to have too much noise and not enough signal for someone who is
interested only in a few topics.  In that case, my suggestion was that we
categorize edits (not articles) in one of the front-page categories, by
selecting them from a multiple selection box.  (Future edits could be
automatically categorized the same way, or changed by the user as they
become relevant to different areas.)  This is a specific, delimited
solution to a specific, delimited problem, and it would make Wikipedia
more attractive to specialists, which is important.

The category feature you've created could be used in all sorts of ways,
and (sorry!) I'm not sure I like all of those ways.  First of all, it
appears to be a way to get the notion of subpages in through the back
door, by distinguishing a "category" category of articles and an "articles
in this category" category.  So, if used indiscriminately, I'd largely be
opposed to this new feature on much the same grounds that I was opposed to
subpages in the first place.

If, on the other hand, we as a community were to decide that only a
*limited, pre-designated* set of pages could be "category" pages, then
this would be, obviously, different from the old main page-subpage scheme.
In that case, though, I should think it would be better to select the
category for any given page from a drop-down box, so people couldn't mess
up the spelling, attempt to add categories that shouldn't be categories,
etc.  Moreover, while my misgivings with subpages would not apply, for the
most part, I'd still wonder--just because I like to be clear about this
sort of thing--what the feature, used this way, would accomplish.  I
imagine that after the philosophy of language article, we'd have the
"philosophy" and "language" (and/or "linguistics") categories listed.  In
doing this, we would *highlight* the fact that the article belongs to a
number of traditional academic categories.  And we would invite the reader
to begin their exploration of Wikipedia with those traditional academic
categories.  And you know, I agree with the interdisciplinary advocates: I
just don't think the traditional academic categories are *important
enough*, per se, for us to take this trouble to *highlight* them for the
reader.  The reader can easily and will naturally deduce the general
subjects, at many different levels (not just the broadest-traditional-
academic-category level), just by reading the article and following the
links in the text.  The beauty of a well-written, complete, well-linked
article is that one can specifically place its location in the web of
knowledge by reading the article itself.

Of course, I could be just failing to remember or realize some other clear
benefit of having articles sorted into a limited number of various
official categories.

Now, if we *simply* wanted to use this as a standard "see also" section,
some modified version of this might work well.  But it does too much for
just tha right nowt...

Awaiting further enlightenment!

Larry

On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Magnus Manske wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> I finally got to implement the often-demanded categories in the PHP script
> (http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/fpw/wiki.phtml).
>
> It works like this:
> - Add "{{CATEGORY A category,Another category}}" to the text of an article.
> Separate the categories by ",".
> - Everything between {{ and }} will *not* be displayed within the text, but
> as a category list at the bottom of the page, as well as in the sidebar, if
> you have turned it on.
> - In an article that *is* a category, write "{{THISCATEGORY}}" somewhere.
> This will be replaced with a list of all articles which *at that very
> moment* have a "{{CATEGORY xyz}}" for that category.
>
> See it for yourself at the above site. I put "Gene" and "DNA" into both
> "Biology" and "Genetics" category. "Genetics" itself is in the "Biology"
> Category. On the "Genetics" and "Biology" pages, at the bottom, you'll find
> a grey box, listing all the pages that are within that category.
>
> OK, I know this screams "problems" all over, but it's just the "hooray, it's
> running!" version. There's much more to be done, starting with a sorted
> article output to limiting "Search" and "Recent Changes" to certain
> categories, and so on. But hey, it's a start...
>
>
>
> A more technical note: I also put all the "fixed" text displayed on the
> 'pedia into variables and collected them in one single file. So, for
> international versions, only one file has to be changed, the other files can
> get "technical" updates without having to translate/merge the whole thing
> again.
>
> That's all for now,
> Magnus
>
> [Wikipedia-l]
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>