body:
On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:04 PM
Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't
> get protected unless it is first protected in the USA ???

No. But afaik you can protect a trademark of a country which is member
of the Madrid Union in all other countries by filing *one* application.

> What sort of an agreement is that ?????

http://www.wipo.int/madrid/en/

> Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days.

That rings a bell ;-)

-Arne (akl)


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Arne Klempert

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com?


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Valentine's day!

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sabine Cretella schrieb:
| Btw.: the editor Langenscheidt in Germany uses the wishes in 20
| languages to send out the greetings - can't we do much better?

Sure, but then we'll have to find a Valentine's card large enough to
print the GFDL on ;-)

Magnus
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCCmUQCZKBJbEFcz0RAqTpAJ9MnAd6hCallbEIej75Ki/B6JOJNwCdFS8T
knN+a8JUAlax3MLsYI/MlU8=
=jD8f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Maik Musall

subject: [Wikitech-l] Make PDFs from articles

body:
On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:36:02AM -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> Maik Musall wrote:
> > quality to some business people who might not know it yet. I hope you
> > agree this is a perfectly valid intention of using wikipedia content.)
>
> Yes, absolutely.
>
> Can you release whatever code/solution you get to this problem?

Yes, naturally. I was pointed to some existing entry points which are a
good starting point for me. I'll keep you updated if I happen to add
something new to that.

Regards
--
Maik Musall <maik at musall.de>
GPG public key 0x856861EB (keyserver: wwwkeys.de.pgp.net)
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list: wikien-l

from_name: Anthere

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content by
	Infoslurp.com

body:
Delirium a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> If there is a page somewhere listing mirrors under violation of our
>> copyright, consider adding it to it.
>
>
> There is a very (*very*) long list of known mirrors, along with
> GFDL-compliance status, at [[en:Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks]].
> Unfortunately, it's a bit hard to keep track of, because there are
> hundreds and hundreds of sites that use Wikipedia content---so many that
> that page had to be broken down into 8 subpages by name (A-C, D-F, etc.).
>
> -Mark

You mean... we are famous ? :-)


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wikicite project pages (english versions only so
	far)

body:
Sj wrote (about Wikicite):
> I was wary of this idea at first, but after talking to Stirling about
> it last week, I am very enthusiastic.  Two librarians I have talked to
> in Boston seem to think it's a good idea, also.

As in "if you cook, we will eat", or the other way around?

Stirling Newbury wrote:
> > together in a live manner, which allows for the creation of
> > bibliographic apparatus. The Library of Congress is working on such a
> > project for its purposes, it is the purpose of this project to create
> > an open wiki system which will allow:

Who are these people at LoC?  Does their project have a name?

I think the best way is to digitize every book and give each page a
URL, like this, http://runeberg.org/pictswed/0219.html

We already know how to handle URLs, and it's only a matter of time
until we have scanned every book and newspaper there is.  I would
guess the task will be completed within the next 50 years.  Most of us
will be around to see it.

So, I have a proposed solution and a time table.  What's your time
table?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Template madness

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> Pete/Pcb21 (pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com) [050206 10:30]:

> {{unreferenced}} has attracted references. Check my talk page.

I am glad some templates are getting a response :).
It does really get on my nerves though that if I have a specific comment
on how a particular article might be improved, I have to use the talk
page, but for some reason general comments that might apply to lots of
pages (i.e. those that are ripe for templatizing) are allowed to be on
the article page. It's illogical and not neat.

Pete/Pcb21


list: foundation-l

from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject:
[Foundation-l] Translations needed of donation pages before fund
	drive

body:
I'm happy to report that the donation pages and forms for de, en, fr, it, ja,
and most recently nl are all translated!

See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising and
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donazioni for examples.

But in order to maximize donations for our next fund drive (to be held from
Friday 18 February until Friday 4 March) we need more translations.

Below is a table of those that still need some work:

 lang    page    Form-xx   Help-xx  Onetime-xx  Option-xx
 ar      yes     no        no       no          no
 cs      yes     no        no       no          no
 es      yes     no        no       no          no
 fi      yes     no        no       no          no
 he      yes     no        no       no          no
 ko      yes     no        no       no          no
 pl      yes     no        no       no          no
 pt      yes     yes       no       no          no
 sv      yes     no        no       no          no
 zh      yes     no        no       no          no

KEY (full instructions are on the linked pages)

*page (actual donation page | Extremely important)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising/En:

*Form-xx (used to translate donation forms | Very important)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm-xx

*Help-xx (help for donors)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateHelp-xx

*Onetime-xx (a message about one time donations)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateOnetime-xx

*Option-xx (used for navigation between forms)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateOption-xx

I'd also like to see translations for all languages for which there are 10,000+
Wikipedia articles. Here is a list of those that so far do not have anything
translated:

bg, ca, da, eo, no, ro, ru, and uk

Of course, all other translations are also welcome and will be posted to the
foundation wiki.

-----------

One last thing. I've noticed that there is no donation link in the side bar for
for many non-Wikipedia wikis and for some Wikipedias. If you are an admin in
any of these wikis *and* a version of the donation page is already on the
Foundation wiki in your language, then please do this:

Edit [[MediaWiki:Sitesupport-url]] and replace '{{SITENAME}}:Site_support' with
'Wikimedia:donate' with 'donate' being the name of the donation page in your
language on the foundation wiki (Spenden, Fundraising, Faites un don, ... etc).

Edit [[MediaWiki:Sitesupport]] and replace the '-' with the word 'Donations'
(or its closest equivalent) translated into your language.

That's it. :)

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

PS - I you have any questions about any of this, then please either respond to
this email or ask me questions on my meta user talk page at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Daniel_Mayer

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Translations needed of donation pages before fund
	drive


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Il love you - in many languages

body:
I'm not so sure about that Stirling.

In many contexts, yes, but as an independent sentence you would most
definitely say "wo ai ni", although you could potentially say "ai ni"
it's not as common.

I know that in Cantonese the phrase is "ngoh oi nei" - not sure of the
tones though.

Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:06:51 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Chinese: Wo ie ni
> >>
> > Wo3 ai4 ni3.
> >
>
> The Wo is often dropped in practical use.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
I don't recall saying they couldn't, just that I find it irritating.

Adding citations that weren't actually used is bad. Adding references
or see alsos, good.

Mark

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:07:59 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >If you add text to the article, you may add your own cites and you
> >won't at all irritate me.
> >
> Didn't you read the fine print on the edit screen? People can edit
> your writing in any way that seems good to them and conforms to
> policy; it's not your place to say that they can't, whether it's
> to add or change citations, references, see alsos, or whatever.
> I care much more that the readers see a sensible article than
> whether my edits irritate you or not.
>
> Stan
>
>


body:
You are confusing "citation" with "see also" or "other references".

I know I'm right because Wiktionary agrees: 2 The act of citing a
passage from a book, or from another person, in his own words; also,
the passage or words quoted; quotation.
3 Enumeration; mention; as, a citation of facts.

If I write an article on a subject, it shows bad academic scruples for
me to cite sources I didn't use. Likewise, it is bad for Wikipedia for
somebody to add a cite to an article that didn't go into the writing
of the text, although that's not nessecarily true if it was used to
confirm a fact as opposed to it just being a good book on the subject.

For example, the English version of the article Trisceli recently
copied the cites line-for-line from the independently-written (ie, not
translated) Sicilian article, without adding text. This is poor.

Mark

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:59:24 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >I think a very important issue here is whether to add cites to
> >articles that we don't know what sources were used.
> >
> >If I wrote the entire text of [[Japanese language]] (which I didn't,
> >this is just an example), without a cite, it would be a very horrible
> >thing in my mind if somebody added a cite for a book I'd never even
> >heard of. It's simply not accurate, and in some cases the book may not
> >even be a good resource.
> >
> >Whenever somebody adds a random cite to an article written mostly or
> >entirely by me, I remove it unless I actually DID use that source.
> >It's very irritating to have people doing that, almost like bees, who
> >while they make honey also tend to annoy people.
> >
> >
> That's not nice.  It suggests that you have taken personal ownership of
> the article.  When somebody adds a citation, one should at least presume
> that the person acted in good faith, and that he felt that the source
> supported some of the things said in the article.  How can you possibly
> tell whether a book is a good resource if you've never heard of it?  You
> have no basis for determining that the cite is "random".
>
> It's not as if he were referring to a source with a known biased
> political point of view.
>
> Ec
>
>


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] Textile

body:
Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050209 20:35]:
> NSK schrieb:

> | Are there any plans to make MW compliant with the Textile standard?
> | http://textism.com/tools/textile/

Who actually uses this? First I've heard of it.

> I don't think MediaWiki will be switched to another markup standard any
> time soon...
> *However*, using XML as an intermediate, conversion from/to different
> standards could be easy and (mostly) lossless.

What caught my eye is that they have a footnoting standard. Are there any
plans or experiments towards automatic footnote numbering in MediaWiki?
It'd make references *much* less annoying.

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request

references:
<mailman.0.1108000743.23119.wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org>
	<mailman.0.1108000743.23119.wikipedia-l-T31ubCBy5U6GglJvpFV4uA@public.gmane.org>
	<BAY103-F32839BCEC9810D39BDEA5DDB760@phx.gbl>
	<KJju1EnqztCCFwSO@cartref.demon.co.uk>

body:
Hey hey hey... hold it.

Quenya, not having an official supporting organisation like Klingon or
Lojban, deserves to at least be considered, although it should
probably be relegated to the same second-class status currently
afforded to the Klingon and sometimes Lojban Wikipedias.

However, the fact that the proposer speaks only passing Quenya and
does not refer to an individual or organisation on whose behalf he
presumes to request this language (as I have done, and as has done
Pektiong Tan), makes me wary. The Wikipedia should probably not be
created until somebody floats along who can claim real fluency in the
language, or the requester contacts an organisation to confirm
support.

Mark

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:02:50 +0000, Arwel Parry
<arwel at cartref.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <BAY103-F32839BCEC9810D39BDEA5DDB760 at phx.gbl>, Ron H
> <aceron99-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> writes
> >
> >I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
> >Wikimedia. Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of Tolkien.
> >Other fictional languages, such as Klingon, already exist on Wikipedia.
> >speak passing Quenya. I have already prepared several articles,
> >including one on constellations, and would like to add them to a
> >quenya-language wiki.
> >
> >
> >
> >Firsfron on Wikipedia.
>
> Oh, please no. We had an enormous argument about Klingon and even now
> there's only 50 articles on tlh.
>
> Is there really a user community large enough to sustain a Quenya
> wikipedia? What would the language code be? And can MediaWiki handle
> Tengwar fonts?
>
> Genuine languages like Ossetian are finding it difficult enough to get
> the developer resources to set themselves up.  I don't think this is
> something that should be rushed into.
>
> --
> Arwel Parry
> http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


references:
<mailman.0.1108000743.23119.wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org>
	<mailman.0.1108000743.23119.wikipedia-l-T31ubCBy5U6GglJvpFV4uA@public.gmane.org>
	<BAY103-F32839BCEC9810D39BDEA5DDB760@phx.gbl>
	<KJju1EnqztCCFwSO@cartref.demon.co.uk>
	<849f98ed05020920217648c931@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Having said that, the Ossetian Wikipedia and the Amis Wiktionary
should be created ASAP. They have been requested by genuine speaker
populations of living languages.

The Amis Wiktionary has decided on the temporary code of i-ami:, and
os: should be used for Ossetian.

Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:21:56 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey hey hey... hold it.
>
> Quenya, not having an official supporting organisation like Klingon or
> Lojban, deserves to at least be considered, although it should
> probably be relegated to the same second-class status currently
> afforded to the Klingon and sometimes Lojban Wikipedias.
>
> However, the fact that the proposer speaks only passing Quenya and
> does not refer to an individual or organisation on whose behalf he
> presumes to request this language (as I have done, and as has done
> Pektiong Tan), makes me wary. The Wikipedia should probably not be
> created until somebody floats along who can claim real fluency in the
> language, or the requester contacts an organisation to confirm
> support.
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:02:50 +0000, Arwel Parry
> <arwel at cartref.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <BAY103-F32839BCEC9810D39BDEA5DDB760 at phx.gbl>, Ron H
> > <aceron99-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> writes
> > >
> > >I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
> > >Wikimedia. Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of Tolkien.
> > >Other fictional languages, such as Klingon, already exist on Wikipedia.
> > >speak passing Quenya. I have already prepared several articles,
> > >including one on constellations, and would like to add them to a
> > >quenya-language wiki.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Firsfron on Wikipedia.
> >
> > Oh, please no. We had an enormous argument about Klingon and even now
> > there's only 50 articles on tlh.
> >
> > Is there really a user community large enough to sustain a Quenya
> > wikipedia? What would the language code be? And can MediaWiki handle
> > Tengwar fonts?
> >
> > Genuine languages like Ossetian are finding it difficult enough to get
> > the developer resources to set themselves up.  I don't think this is
> > something that should be rushed into.
> >
> > --
> > Arwel Parry
> > http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


from_name: Michael Snow

body:
Arne Klempert wrote:

>That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark
>is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the
>Madrid Agreement.
>
>
Well, we could register the trademarks separately in some European
country, but that doesn't make that much sense if we can get an EU-wide
registration based on a prior US registration.

>"Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia,
>MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel
>confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get
>some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration
>numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters.
>
>
So far, we've filed just the three applications for US trademark
registration that I know of - Wikipedia, MediaWiki, and Wikinews, no others.

They don't have registration numbers because they're not registered yet,
they're only in the application stage. The applications do have serial
numbers, which you can get through the US Patent & Trademark Office's
search function. You can also check the status, which in this case shows
that none of the applications has yet been assigned to an examining
attorney. (Applications seem to get entered in the system with decent
regularity; I don't know how good they are about status updates.)

Since we're trying to identify all of these with the Wikimedia
Foundation, so that Wikimedia is sort of the umbrella brand for all our
projects, it would probably make sense to get Wikimedia registered as
well. The name is getting some public exposure (the New York Times did a
nice job differentiating in their piece about Wikinews), and it could be
helpful with the wikimedia.com situation.

The domain name problem makes the issue of where to put the Foundation
wiki academic for now, but ultimately I agree with Erik that we should
definitely go with the shorter name. Either way, though, we should get
ourselves the wikimedia.com domain.

Eventually we should register the other projects as trademarks too, but
I'm not sure that should be an immediate financial priority. I think
it's more important to get international registration going for the
first four marks (the existing three and Wikimedia), once the US
registration is in effect.

--Michael Snow


from_name: James R. Johnson

body:
As for Anglo-Saxon/Old English: Ic lufie ?ec

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sabine Cretella
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:38 PM
To: wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org; wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Il love you - in many languages

Here is a list I collected approx. a year ago - not all useable, but
most of them. At this moment I just don't have the time to start a page
with another phrase, so if someone would like to create it on any
wiktionary using language templates like {{en}} etc., please let us know
the link (so we can easily transfer it). During the week-end I can
record the sentences in German and Italian (vor St. Valentine and I love
you).

English: I love you
Latin: Te amo
Greek: S' ayapo
French: Je t'aime
Spanish: Te quiero
Portuguese: Amo-te
Italian: Ti amo
Irish: Taim i' ngra leat
German: Ich liebe dich
Dutch: Ik houd van jou
Swedish: Jag a" lskar dig
Hebrew: Ani ohev otah / Ani ohev et otha
Russian: Ya tebya liubliu
Japanese: Kimi o ai shiteru
Chinese: Wo ie ni
Albanian: Te dua
Arabic: Ana behibek / Ana behibak
Armenian: Yes kez si'rumem
Cambodian: Kh_nhaum soro_lahn nhee_ah
Catalan: T'estimo
Bulgarian: Obicham te!
Cheyenne: Ne mohotatse
Creol: Mi aime jou
Ethiopian: Afgreki'
Gaelic: Ta gra agam ort
Hawaiian: Aloha wau ia oi
Hopi: Nu' umi unangwa'ta
Hungarian: Szeretlek
Korean: Dangsinul saranghee yo
Lebanese: Bahibak
Lithuanian: Tave myliu
Mohawk: Konoronhkwa
Moroccan: Kanbhik
Navaho: Ayor anosh'ni

Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>It would be fun to do sound recordings of "I love you" in dozens of
>languages, as we did for the "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year"
>project.
>
>--Jimbo
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject: [Wikitech-l] Website to block

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:39:26 +0100 (MET), Alfio Puglisi
<puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
> This another one, but it's also "processing" the text. Read this article:
>
> http://www.brightyoungthingsthemovie.com/splendidiser.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia
>
> It's of course different every time you load it.

That's a joke site. It does that for every URL and technically it
*does* say that we're using the GNU FDL license.

The other site you mentioned also mentioned the GNU FDL in yellow at
the bottom of the page. Is this some kind of joke?


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikitech-l] revised 'old' dump compression scheme

body:
I see there are new dumps (btw: de/en missing on download page, but dumped
recently anyway)

In order to adapt and test stats scripts, has one of the smaller databases
been converted to new compression cheme? I tried a few but no luck.

Can't download de/en old dump for tests, they are too large.

Thx, Erik Zachte.


from_name: Axel

subject: [Wikitech-l] Make PDFs from articles

body:
Maik Musall schrieb:

> Yes, naturally. I was pointed to some existing entry points which are a
> good starting point for me. I'll keep you updated if I happen to add
> something new to that.
>
> Regards

I made some simple tests with the itext engine:
  http://www.lowagie.com/iText/
I took the HTML output from the Plog4U Eclipse Wikipedia Editor preview
and transformed it to HTML.
Seems to me that it's possible to integrate a PDF exporter in the plugin.

I made some simple tests with the itext engine:
  http://www.plog4u.org/index.php/Generate_PDF_with_iText

I took the HTML output from the Plog4U Eclipse Wikipedia Editor
previewer and transformed it to PDF.
Seems to me that it's possible to integrate a PDF exporter in the plugin.


body:
If this project goes through, I'd also suggest original language of
publication, place of publication (perhaps a part of the publisher field),
and any further language editions of the work, as well as any further
revisions of the work (e.g. an encyclopedia, almanac, Guiness Book, etc.).
Just some thoughts.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sj
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 11:22 AM
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikicite project pages (english versions only
sofar)

I was wary of this idea at first, but after talking to Stirling about
it last week, I am very enthusiastic.  Two librarians I have talked to
in Boston seem to think it's a good idea, also.  In addition to
helping us reference our existing articles, this would be a fine way
to provide a universal, POV-free service (with potentially POV
commentary built on top of it).

+sj+

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:07:43 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikicite
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicite
>
> A fact is only as reliable as the ability to source that fact, and the
> ability to weigh carefully that source. Wikipedia's community, in an
> effort to expand its useful sphere of users, increase its reliability,
> usability and credibility has held several related discussions on
> improving the scholarly apparatus of wikipedia. The need to cite
> sources is now in the community standard's list, the desire to upgrade
> the citation of articles is the subject of the Fact and Reference
> Project, and the Encyclopediac Standards project has discussed
> automatic, or at least software assisted citations. There has also been
> a coding effort to support footnoting.
> [edit]
>
> Need for Live Data
>
> These projects, need, not only to be joined together, but to be joined
> together in a live manner, which allows for the creation of
> bibliographic apparatus. The Library of Congress is working on such a
> project for its purposes, it is the purpose of this project to create
> an open wiki system which will allow:
>
> 1.  Software assisted citation. To make it easier for editors to cite,
> and to make citations comprehensive to include a link to an author
> article, the book's card and the date as a wikilink.
>
> 2.  Card catalogs which will allow users to annotate the work, and to
> link to other works, which could include later editions, bibliography
> and textual apparatus. To make the card catalog live data, rather than
> dead data.
>
> 3.  Support a footnote system in wikimedia. To improve the ability to
> assess credibility and standards compliance of articles and their
> information.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
+sj+
 _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
NSK (nsk2 at wikinerds.org) [050209 21:43]:

> I am unable to create external links with the character ' in their URL, with
> MW1.3.9. What can I do?

Does using %27 in the URL work?

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] -- to dash conversion code

body:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:25:27 -0500, Nathan Hamblen <nhamblen at mac.com> wrote:
> 2. Replace any '--' between numbers with '–' alone.

Does this work for "2mm-3m"? "50KHz-1GHz"? What happens if it doesn't work?

> See below for the code.

Maybe you could have attached it to a feature request at
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org and that would keep track of this
better. :)


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Website to block

body:
I'm not sure if this is the right mailing list, but website
http://www.gerla.cc is stealing wikipedia bandwidth and publishing content
declaring it public domain:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-compliant_site_coordination#Action_needed

Alfio


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] Question about researching Wikipedia

body:
Frank -

People write papers about Wikipedia all the time. Andrew Lih
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fuzheado) is
a journalism professor and has published quite a bit. Since most everything
is (intentionally) all done in the open,
I don't really think you need consent from anyone, although you might want
to refrain from using anyone's real-life
name.

--Mark  (Raul654)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Neo-nazis to attack wikipedia

body:
Tony Sidaway (minorityreport at bluebottle.com) [050209 22:13]:

> Such articles can also be picked up when they're linked in to other parts
> of Wikipedia.  Watch the usual neo-Nazi sources, and Usenet, for neo-nazis
> citing Wikipedia, and follow up all references.

One thing to remember is that our coverage of eno-Nazi topics is in fact
not too bad and the area is closely watched by a lot of interested editors.

(Check out [[Category:Neo-Nazi topics]] and its subcategories. Some
articles still read like investigative journalism or denunciations, but
they're improving with time. And references, of course - it's hard to find
a reference on the topic, against or for, without a strong POV. So the more
the better.)

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Website to block

body:
This another one, but it's also "processing" the text. Read this article:

http://www.brightyoungthingsthemovie.com/splendidiser.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia

It's of course different every time you load it.

Alfio

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Alfio Puglisi wrote:

>
>I'm not sure if this is the right mailing list, but website
>http://www.gerla.cc is stealing wikipedia bandwidth and publishing content
>declaring it public domain:
>
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-compliant_site_coordination#Action_needed
>
>Alfio
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Simple English and English look too confusingly
	similar

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:28:31 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I, for one, believe we should merge simple: with en:, but instead of
> having two articles for each topic, we merge them completely so there
> is just one en: instead of two.
>
> Using simple: for Simple English is very Anglocentric, and on top of
> that one could use a site like PopJisyo ( http://www.popjisyo.com/ )
> to explain the more difficult words.
>
> I don't think a lot of people will agree with me here and I don't
> expect a merger will happen in the near future, but that's still my
> opinion.

Anglocentric? How? English is a very commonly spoken language. Would
you appreciate a rename of the project? "Foreign English"?

A "merge" of en: and simple: wouldn't be a merge. Everything in
simple: would be discarded and en: would stay as it is.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] portal organization

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:19:44 +0100, James R. Johnson
<modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I was thinking about another possible portal arrangement, that based on
> language family, giving the Latin, French, Spanish, etc. languages a
> grouping, the Germanic languages, and so forth.  Perhaps not for the main
> portal, but rather on the article for Latin or Romance-languages, we could
> add a language tree with links to the daughter language wikipedias.  Same
> with an article on proto-Germanic.

Most people know very little about the origins of languages. Only a
linguist would want to see them sorted like that.


body:
Please don't shout. *embarrased* I understand what you mean now. You
meant that using "simple" is Anglocentric.

Actually, though, other languages would theoretically use the word
"simple" or "basic" in their own language. If only subdomains weren't
limited so much as to characters.

I would want en-simple.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:09:29 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I said, USING SIMPLE: for Simple English is Anglocentric.
>
> Simple: might as well be a Wikipedia in Simplified Chinese. It's NOT
> an ISO code, and it sure doesn't tell you it's in simple ENGLISH. It
> should be en-simple: or simple-en:


subject: [Wikipedia-l] portal organization

body:
I was thinking about another possible portal arrangement, that based on
language family, giving the Latin, French, Spanish, etc. languages a
grouping, the Germanic languages, and so forth.  Perhaps not for the main
portal, but rather on the article for Latin or Romance-languages, we could
add a language tree with links to the daughter language wikipedias.  Same
with an article on proto-Germanic.

James


from_name: Chip Berlet

body:
Hi,

I am assuming you are concerned with the ethics of disclosure of scholarly observation.  By posting your question to this list and adding a note to your user page you have probably done most of the task, but an additional notice to some more public place on Wikipedia would probably be a good idea for any defense of procedure to a committee.

For others offering advice, the key here is that the Wikipedia community as a whole needs to have a reasonable ability to learn of the observation, which gives them the option of non-participation (in theory by not posting).  Just because Wikipedia is a public exercise may not meet the requirements that a university committee responsible for checking research ethics would find appropriate. There has to be a good faith effort at notice (which is just what Frank Lester is trying to establish!).

:-)

-Chip Berlet

________________________________

From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org on behalf of F L
Sent: Wed 2/9/2005 10:01 PM
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Question about researching Wikipedia

I'm a graduate student at the University of Michigan
School of Information (and also an admin at Wikipedia,
username Ffirehorse). I'm considering a long research
paper on the dynamics of community at Wikipedia for a
class on online communities that I'm taking this term.

My question is about protocol, and the reason I'm
asking it is because I'm not having much success in
locating on Wikimedia or Wikipedia any policy or
guidelines on how to approach the community in terms
of consent. Would a community-wide announcement be
sufficient? As someone who is already a member of the
community, while I'm doing the research, would it be
advisable to post some sort of note on my user page
that I'm also conducting research?

Or is the sort of activity that I'm proposing (i.e.,
researching Wikipedia while also contributing as a
member) generally frowned upon? If so, I will drop the
idea without hesitation.

The research I'm considering would be in the form of
unobtrusive observation of norms, practices, routines,
and other forms of community-forming activity on
Wikipedia, and would not likely involve any direct
interaction with Wikipedia users. I'd be happy to go
into further detail about the specifics if need be.

Any guidance/feedback would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Frank Lester

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:40:05 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think a very important issue here is whether to add cites to
> articles that we don't know what sources were used.
>
> If I wrote the entire text of [[Japanese language]] (which I didn't,
> this is just an example), without a cite, it would be a very horrible
> thing in my mind if somebody added a cite for a book I'd never even
> heard of. It's simply not accurate, and in some cases the book may not
> even be a good resource.
>
> Whenever somebody adds a random cite to an article written mostly or
> entirely by me, I remove it unless I actually DID use that source.
> It's very irritating to have people doing that, almost like bees, who
> while they make honey also tend to annoy people.

Hmm. If something is common knowledge to specialists in the field
(sounds contradictory, I know) then any reliable cite documenting this
will do, not just the one you've used.


from_name: Stirling Newberry

body:
On Feb 9, 2005, at 11:17 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> You are confusing "citation" with "see also" or "other references".
>
> I know I'm right because Wiktionary agrees: 2 The act of citing a
> passage from a book, or from another person, in his own words; also,
> the passage or words quoted; quotation.
> 3 Enumeration; mention; as, a citation of facts.
>
> If I write an article on a subject, it shows bad academic scruples for
> me to cite sources I didn't use. Likewise, it is bad for Wikipedia for
> somebody to add a cite to an article that didn't go into the writing
> of the text, although that's not nessecarily true if it was used to
> confirm a fact as opposed to it just being a good book on the subject.
>
> For example, the English version of the article Trisceli recently
> copied the cites line-for-line from the independently-written (ie, not
> translated) Sicilian article, without adding text. This is poor.
>
> Mark
>

Which is why the wikicite proposal includes the incorporation of
footnoting code which is being worked on. One way to cut down on
citation cruft, a current problem, is to integrate footnoting more
directly into wiki writing. This way people will see which citations
were directly used.


from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting

body:
> I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find
> anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what
> is meant with it exactly?

Basically, Google have made a proposal to host some of our
content.There's an introduction at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting, but I'm not sure I can
say much more than that at this stage.

Angela.


subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting


subject: [Wikitech-l] Website to block

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Tomer Chachamu wrote:

>The other site you mentioned also mentioned the GNU FDL in yellow at
>the bottom of the page. Is this some kind of joke?

No, the other site actually downloads content in realtime from wikipedia,
doesn't mention wikipedia, puts a line about the GFDL at the bottom of the
page but the block of text immediately before says, more or less:

"All information is this page may be freely copied and used for any
purpose. There is no nee to ask for any permission to take them and use
for any purpose, except for images with registered trademarks".

Which isn't the GFDL, and fails to say that you must mention
authors and use the GFDL again if you redistribute contents.

And it's using our bandwidth.

Alfio


from_name: David Monniaux

subject: [Wikitech-l] -- to dash conversion code

body:
Nathan Hamblen wrote:

>  problem has an easy solution: French keyboards also have a a dash key

They don't, at least normal PC keyboards don't.

> 1. Replace any ' -- ' with the UTF-8 sequence equivalent to
> ' – '
> 2. Replace any '--' between numbers with '–' alone.
> 3. Replace any ' --- ' with the UTF-8 sequence equivalent to
> ' — '

Sounds like LaTeX.


subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
NSK (nsk2 at wikinerds.org) [050209 23:08]:
> On Wednesday 09 February 2005 12:57, David Gerard wrote:

> > Does using %27 in the URL work?

> Thanks, it works. However, the ' character needs to be supported somehow.

Sounds like a parsing nightmare for an already somewhat disquieting parser,
given the use of '' for italic, ''' for bold and ''''' for both together.

I've had a devil of a time getting some weird URLs to work, e.g.
web.archive.org ones with http:// in the URL (workaround: leave it out, the
page is just the same ;-).

Possibly something could be added to say "this is a URL, don't mess with
it".

- d.


from_name: Stephen Forrest

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:08:38 +0000, Ron H <aceron99 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
> Wikimedia.  Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of
> Tolkien.

ObNitpicking: it is one such language.  Sindarin is the other elvish
language about which Tolkien wrote a significant amount.  I suppose
granting a wikipedia for one would make it rather difficult not to
grant one for the other as well.

I don't see that the Tengwar fonts would be a big problem: writers
could simply use hardcoded entities everywhere, which is ugly but
which works for the Gothic wikipedia, at least.  I have been told
that, crazy as it seems, there are actually Unicode entities for this
alphabet (though I haven't confirmed this).

> Other fictional languages, such as Klingon, already exist on
> Wikipedia. I speak passing Quenya. I have already prepared
> several articles, including one on constellations, and would
> like to add them to a quenya-language wiki.

And we also have a Wikipedia in Rohirric. :)

Perhaps this goes without saying, but if a Quenya wikipedia were to
exist, an article on constellations that mentions specific
constellations would have to refer, by default anyway, to the real
world.  For example, Earendil must be described as a fictional star.

It seems to me to be a reasonable thing to insist that a language must
have at one time been a native tongue of some human population in
order for it to be granted a wikipedia.  Otherwise we could be deluged
with requests from enthusiastic 16-year-olds who have fashioned their
own languages (I know, I was one once).

It's true that Klingon doesn't fit this criterion (though Esperanto
does) and yet exists, but I don't think we need be bound by precedent,
especially as the Klingon experiment hasn't been a particularly
successful one.

Steve


from_name: NSK

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content by
	Infoslurp.com

body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 17:58, Bobby Maisnam wrote:
> [1] So, is it ok to display Google AdSense on the website? This

Please read the GFDL.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting

body:
I will be there, but can you please remind again when you see me on IRC
on sunday ;)

Waerth/Walter van Kalken


subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Possible copyright violation of Wikipedia content
	by Infoslurp.com

body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 20:59, Anthere wrote:
> This is a clear violation of copyright.

IANAL. I am not trained in law. This is not legal advice and the info I give
may be incorrect.

It is mostly a trade mark violation, with only minor copyright problems.

They don't need to mention Wikipedia anywhere. They just need to mention five
authors, except if the authors don't require that (which is the case of most
Wikipedia authors, i.e. anonymous users).

However, I looked at their site and I think that somebody could confuse it for
the real Wikipedia. This may create trade mark confusion, especially if they
have a high Google pagerank.

IANAL. I am not trained in law. This is not legal advice and the info I give
may be incorrect.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 14:46, David Gerard wrote:
> Possibly something could be added to say "this is a URL, don't mess with

This is the <A> XHTML tag.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


subject: [Wikitech-l] ' links

body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 22:28, Brion Vibber wrote:
> For external links in [single brackets] this is fixed in 1.4.

Could you please ship a 1.3.11 version to include this fix? Thanks

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4


from_name: Marco Krohn

subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting

body:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 23:58, Daniel Mayer wrote:

Hi,

[...]
> The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of
> money we need to spend as will other hosting offers.

I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find
anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what
is meant with it exactly?

best regards,
  Marco


subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting


from_name: Chad Perrin

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Hey hey hey... hold it.
>
> Quenya, not having an official supporting organisation like Klingon or
> Lojban, deserves to at least be considered, although it should
> probably be relegated to the same second-class status currently
> afforded to the Klingon and sometimes Lojban Wikipedias.
>
> However, the fact that the proposer speaks only passing Quenya and
> does not refer to an individual or organisation on whose behalf he
> presumes to request this language (as I have done, and as has done
> Pektiong Tan), makes me wary. The Wikipedia should probably not be
> created until somebody floats along who can claim real fluency in the
> language, or the requester contacts an organisation to confirm
> support.
>

Good points.

I think the most important criterion, though, should probably be this:
Will there be people interested in researching in the language?

I strongly suspect this is why the Klingon Wikipedia is a marginal
failure.  As a concept, it sounds great, and it's true that there are
some fluent and literate speakers of Klingon, but when the chips are
down even the Klingon speakers will be doing their research in English,
or French, or German, or whatever other language they use in their
day-to-day lives to get by in the world.

Interest and fluency aren't really enough for a successful reference
work.  You also need it to be useful, or it won't sustain and increase
its pool of interest.

Personally, I'd rather see the various Elvish languages of Middle-Earth
in Wikipedia than Klingon, and I'd be more likely to use it than
Ossetian, but frankly I think Ossetian might have a place in Wikipedia
at the present time, and Quenya really doesn't (in my estimation).

Then again, maybe that's just me.

--
Chad


body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:14:08 +0000, Tomer Chachamu <the.r3m0t at gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
> Actually, though, other languages would theoretically use the word
> "simple" or "basic" in their own language. If only subdomains weren't
> limited so much as to characters.

Except the obvious objection: that this does not guarantee uniqueness.
 'Simple' may be 'simple' in some non-English language; a notable
example where this is the case is French.

In fact the very idea of a 'Simple French' wikipedia called
fran?ais-simple is discussed on this page (in French):

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Wikip%C3%A9dia_simple

> I would want en-simple.

That would work for me.

Steve


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] A counterpoint to the mobilization of Stormfront

body:
Catherine Munro (artslave at usa.net) [050210 00:08]:

> OK, so it's not nearly as compelling as Neo-Nazis breathing hard outside
> the door, but I ran across this today on the "Excessive Sweating and Facial
> Blushing" site (it was linked from the talk page of another WP user):
> A group with an agenda (opposition to a drastic type of surgery to treat
> sweating disorders) discovered Wikipedia, said, "hey, we can support our
> agenda there"...."but wait, they have an NPOV policy"...."that's ok, we can
> do that"..."in fact, let's invite the doctors who support the treatment to
> come work on it"....
> http://www.esfbchannel.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=ETS_General&action=display&num=1100250508
> And now, two months later, we have a fairly balanced little article on
> [[Endoscopic thoracic sympathectomy]], which the group is now telling other
> ETS/anti-ETS sites they can use and copy (WITH proper GFDL linking and
> credit, no less!):
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endoscopic_thoracic_sympathectomy
> Obviously these are rational people, and not ideologues of any stripe --
> still, I thought it would be a nice bit of evidence that the system /does/
> usually work.  :)

Yep.

It's an important point to remember: talking about Wikipedia on an activist
(i.e., POV-pushing) mailing list, and even responding to a recruitment call
to come to Wikipedia, *is not* evidence of POV-pushing edits. Only the
edits themselves are.

Even then, the editors should generally be cluifiable. Most people aren't
actually out to wreck things in the name of their cause, but to do good.
Assume good faith.

- d.


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Tengwar, like Klingon, is not in the Unicode standard, although it is
a part of the conscript registry. Spaces used by the conscript
registry for Tengwar are used by diffferent fonts for different
characters - I have one that uses it for Chinese characters, and
another one that uses the Klingon space for Arabic calligraphic forms.
Ultimately it would be best to write it in the Roman alphabet.

Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:55:05 -0500, Stephen Forrest
<stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:08:38 +0000, Ron H <aceron99 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
> > Wikimedia.  Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of
> > Tolkien.
>
> ObNitpicking: it is one such language.  Sindarin is the other elvish
> language about which Tolkien wrote a significant amount.  I suppose
> granting a wikipedia for one would make it rather difficult not to
> grant one for the other as well.
>
> I don't see that the Tengwar fonts would be a big problem: writers
> could simply use hardcoded entities everywhere, which is ugly but
> which works for the Gothic wikipedia, at least.  I have been told
> that, crazy as it seems, there are actually Unicode entities for this
> alphabet (though I haven't confirmed this).
>
> > Other fictional languages, such as Klingon, already exist on
> > Wikipedia. I speak passing Quenya. I have already prepared
> > several articles, including one on constellations, and would
> > like to add them to a quenya-language wiki.
>
> And we also have a Wikipedia in Rohirric. :)
>
> Perhaps this goes without saying, but if a Quenya wikipedia were to
> exist, an article on constellations that mentions specific
> constellations would have to refer, by default anyway, to the real
> world.  For example, Earendil must be described as a fictional star.
>
> It seems to me to be a reasonable thing to insist that a language must
> have at one time been a native tongue of some human population in
> order for it to be granted a wikipedia.  Otherwise we could be deluged
> with requests from enthusiastic 16-year-olds who have fashioned their
> own languages (I know, I was one once).
>
> It's true that Klingon doesn't fit this criterion (though Esperanto
> does) and yet exists, but I don't think we need be bound by precedent,
> especially as the Klingon experiment hasn't been a particularly
> successful one.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Muzaffer Ozakca

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rating code

body:
Hi,

I saw in some of the old posts of a rating mechanism being developed. I need
this functionality for a wiki site. Probably not exactly the same kind of
ratings but still I want to take a look and hopefully contribute. Which version
will include it? How can I access the rating code?

Thanks.


from_name: Ron H

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on Wikimedia.
Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of Tolkien. Other fictional
languages, such as Klingon, already exist on Wikipedia. I speak passing
Quenya. I have already prepared several articles, including one on
constellations, and would like to add them to a quenya-language wiki.

Firsfron on Wikipedia.


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Anthere-

>
> This is the reason I would now rather support using full adress (with
> a redirection of course from wikimedia.org)
>
> I would be glad if you could take time to fix that up.

Angela said she would prefer it if wikimedia.org stays a separate site,
unless a big disambiguation notice is added to wikimediafoundation.org.
I'm happy to add a disambig notice, but I think it should only cover
terms where there's some confusion (Wikipedia, MediaWiki) and be
reasonably discreet.

I'll stay out of this whole mess until the wikimedia.com situation is
resolved. At that point, it's probably a good idea to ask the community
for their input.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Stirling Newberry wrote:

>> ISBNs are of limited value since they were only adopted in 1970.
>> Most of that material is still copyright protected.  The public
>> domain material on Wikisource is much older than that, and has no ISBNs.
>>
>> Ec
>
> Once ISBN is implemented we can expand to LCCN, which is everything
> copyright in the US library of Congress, and is not a copyright
> system. From this other call numbers, provided they can be referenced
> in the public domain, will be possible. ISBN's are not of "limited"
> value, since anything which has had an edition since then has one.
> This includes many texts which were produced prior to 1970, and
> virtually all of the commonly cited material on wikipedia. Since the
> proposed format allows for different types of identifiers, it will be
> a simple matter to add additional identifiers by which material may be
> cited.

Call numbers serve a different purpose at LOC than LCCNs.  Saying that
"anything which has had an edition since then has one" is not accurate.
It's that later edition that has one; the earlier edition still does
not.  Thus in the Wikipedia [[BibTeX]] article, the example given for
the Abramovitz and Stegun volume as published by Dover.  That is not a
1964 publication as the article would suggest.  My personal copy of the
work is the March 1965 third printing, with corrections produced by the
US Dept. of Commerce, and has no ISBN.  It would be inappropriate to
stick Dover's ISBN on that.

No-one is suggesting that ISBN is a copyright system.  The extent to
which ISBNs are commonly used will very much depend on the subject
matter.  The use is bound to be strong in most of the sciences, but in
literature and history much of the references can be very old.

While I'm certainly not opposing the Wikicite project, my concern
remains with Wikisource, and how the system as ultimately adopted will
fit in with that project.  I have raised the issue of citing sources on
both Wikisource and Wiktionary.  Still, my experience suggests to me
that a significant fraction of our contributors have a great deal of
difficulty in grasping the concept or its importance.

Ec


from_name: Arwel Parry

body:
In message <BAY103-F32839BCEC9810D39BDEA5DDB760 at phx.gbl>, Ron H
<aceron99-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> writes
>
>I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
>Wikimedia. Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of Tolkien.
>Other fictional languages, such as Klingon, already exist on Wikipedia.
>speak passing Quenya. I have already prepared several articles,
>including one on constellations, and would like to add them to a
>quenya-language wiki.
>
>
>
>Firsfron on Wikipedia.

Oh, please no. We had an enormous argument about Klingon and even now
there's only 50 articles on tlh.

Is there really a user community large enough to sustain a Quenya
wikipedia? What would the language code be? And can MediaWiki handle
Tengwar fonts?

Genuine languages like Ossetian are finding it difficult enough to get
the developer resources to set themselves up.  I don't think this is
something that should be rushed into.

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/


from_name: Zigger

subject: [Wikitech-l] Spam on en:PHP

body:
LiveJournal offer an audio alternative to fuzzy characters --
https://www.livejournal.com/create.bml  (& https for privacy).
Although I can't try it from here, I guess it works.

-- Zigger

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:23:10 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> Rhobite wrote:
> > If you implement some sort of bot detection, you could issue keys to
> > approved bots which would allow them to edit. But I don't think
> > CAPTCHA tests are the right approach, due to accessibility issues.
> ...
> What are some possible alternatives, or ways of minimizing this problem?
> ...


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Neil Harris wrote:

> I think the point Mark is making is that there is a difference between
> a source actually used when writing the document, and a suggestion for
> further reading. One suggests that the source was used as a text
> source or authority, the other does not. Mixing the two up can create
> a false impression; and unfortunately many editors do not appreciate
> the differences.
>
> There's a big difference between saying "I read this as I wrote this
> article", "I used this as an authority", and "someone mentioned this
> in their list of references for another article on the subject".

Sure there's a distinction, but it's only interesting for about
15 minutes, or less if the next editor comes along sooner. We don't
value process over product; if a person adds a bit of text but
justifies with an irrelevant or incorrect citation, we want to fix
the text or citation or both as necessary.

For instance, in areas where I'm a recognized expert, I can write
at length from memory, and don't need to refer to any sources at
all; then the references I include are just for the benefit of
readers, and other editors who want to check up on me. In other
areas, I'm carefully paraphrasing the one reference I've been able
to locate. However, I'm not expected or required to tell anybody
which of the two processes I used for any particular edit, and even
if I did, nobody would care much. So it's a distinction without a
difference.

To put it another way, we evaluate an article based on what the
current version looks like, not by studying the article's edit
history. A good thing too - some of our finest articles have,
shall we say, a checkered past. :-)

Stan


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Grant meeting

body:
Marco Krohn a ?crit:
> On Wednesday 09 February 2005 23:58, Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> [...]
>
>>The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of
>>money we need to spend as will other hosting offers.
>
>
> I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find
> anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what
> is meant with it exactly?
>
> best regards,
>   Marco

It is currently proceeding, but details are not entirely worked out.
We had a first proposal for which we gave feedback last week.

Today, in Standford, Jimbo met with Sergei Brin and Larry Page, who were
extremely enthousiastic about the whole project.

The board has a meeting planned early march to try to finalize this a
little bit more.

Ant


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Grant meeting


body:
It is not a "mess" :-)
Either way, while I have a preference, I will gladly accept that another
solution is chosen, and the community is welcome to say what it prefers
here.

In all cases, as long as we do not have www.wikimedia.com, we should not
change anything. So, let's talk about it when www.wikimedia.com is
recovered.

ant

Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Anthere-
>
>>
>> This is the reason I would now rather support using full adress (with
>> a redirection of course from wikimedia.org)
>>
>> I would be glad if you could take time to fix that up.
>
>
> Angela said she would prefer it if wikimedia.org stays a separate site,
> unless a big disambiguation notice is added to wikimediafoundation.org.
> I'm happy to add a disambig notice, but I think it should only cover
> terms where there's some confusion (Wikipedia, MediaWiki) and be
> reasonably discreet.
>
> I'll stay out of this whole mess until the wikimedia.com situation is
> resolved. At that point, it's probably a good idea to ask the community
> for their input.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Question about researching Wikipedia

body:
I think the way the community works is totally fascinating and I
understand fully your desire to do a more organised research. I'll be
glad to see results in the end.

The only comment I would have would be to recommand you to ask people
their permission if you make reference to their names in your study. Not
mandatory, but possibly nicer.

Anthere

F L a ?crit:
> I'm a graduate student at the University of Michigan
> School of Information (and also an admin at Wikipedia,
> username Ffirehorse). I'm considering a long research
> paper on the dynamics of community at Wikipedia for a
> class on online communities that I'm taking this term.
>
>
> My question is about protocol, and the reason I'm
> asking it is because I'm not having much success in
> locating on Wikimedia or Wikipedia any policy or
> guidelines on how to approach the community in terms
> of consent. Would a community-wide announcement be
> sufficient? As someone who is already a member of the
> community, while I'm doing the research, would it be
> advisable to post some sort of note on my user page
> that I'm also conducting research?
>
> Or is the sort of activity that I'm proposing (i.e.,
> researching Wikipedia while also contributing as a
> member) generally frowned upon? If so, I will drop the
> idea without hesitation.
>
> The research I'm considering would be in the form of
> unobtrusive observation of norms, practices, routines,
> and other forms of community-forming activity on
> Wikipedia, and would not likely involve any direct
> interaction with Wikipedia users. I'd be happy to go
> into further detail about the specifics if need be.
>
> Any guidance/feedback would be appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
> Frank Lester
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> http://my.yahoo.com


from_name: pinco

body:
Hi, all!

Can you add yourselves the translations (in the original scripts) you
suggested to http://eo.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Mi_amas_vin ?

Thanks a lot,
Nino

--

http://www.vessella.it (italiano, esperanto, kiswahili, english)
http://www.changamano.org (Iniziative di solidariet? per la Tanzania)
http://www.lernado.it (Articoli di quotidiani della Tanzania, Corso di lingua swahili, Corso di lingua esperanto, Vocabolario esperanto-italiano, Jifunze lugha ya Kiesperanto, Kamusi ya Kiesperanto)


from_name: Boris Lohnzweiger

body:
I fully agree with Chad. Speaking out against more wikipedias in fictional languages shouldn't be confused with speaking out against those languages in general. I mean, many of them certainly are products of great creativity and therefore have a value of their own.

But, a the end of the day, what is (or should be) an encyclopedia all about?  My definition is: a _comprehensive_ source of information. Now I'm afraid neither Klingon nor Quenyan nor any other fictional language wikipedia will ever achieve that status. Matter of fact, I think even most International auxiliary language wikipedias which have been set up so far won't get there.

So after all, those fantasy language wikipedias would all end up being creative playgrounds for small circles of people. Which surely woundn't be a bad thing. But would that really fit into the concept of this great project? Or wouldn't it rather harm Wikipedia's reputation as a reliable, comprehensive source of information (i. e. not fiction)?

Boris

Chad Perrin wrote:

> Good points.

> I think the most important criterion, though, should probably be this:
> Will there be people interested in researching in the language?

> I strongly suspect this is why the Klingon Wikipedia is a marginal
> failure. As a concept, it sounds great, and it's true that there are
> some fluent and literate speakers of Klingon, but when the chips are
> down even the Klingon speakers will be doing their research in English,
> or French, or German, or whatever other language they use in their
> day-to-day lives to get by in the world.

> Interest and fluency aren't really enough for a successful reference
> work. You also need it to be useful, or it won't sustain and increase
> its pool of interest.

> Personally, I'd rather see the various Elvish languages of Middle-Earth
> in Wikipedia than Klingon, and I'd be more likely to use it than
> Ossetian, but frankly I think Ossetian might have a place in Wikipedia
> at the present time, and Quenya really doesn't (in my estimation).

> Then again, maybe that's just me.

> --
> Chad
______________________________________________________________
Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193


from_name: Arno M

subject: [WikiEN-l] The stormfront site: an update

body:
Hello.

I have finally been able to look at this stormfront website.

The latest seems to be that some of these guys, incited by someone
called whitebamboo, do seem to be getting ready to do a 'blitzkreig'
on wikipedia, with Jewish Ethnocentrism named as a specific target.

See http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=173563&page=4&pp=10

WhiteBamboo seems to be an interesting fellow. His 'public profile' is not
visible, but he lists www.army.com as his home page.

--
_______________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject: [Wikitech-l] ENotif 2.01 (alpha) for MediaWiki 1.3.10

body:
There is a new version of ENotif (e-mail notification for changed pages)
for MediaWiki 1.3.10 for those of you who want to test this. It has
"alpha" status.

Documentation, To-Do list and download URL on
http://meta.wikipedia.org/Enotif  (documentation is for several versions)
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454

I tested the version without problems, and would be happy, if you send
me your observations directly by mailto:mail at wikinaut.de
Remark: this Enotif release has similar code as the one which is already
in CVS HEAD for MW version 1.5

Wikinaut Tom


from_name: Ribamar Santarosa de Sousa

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
> (...)
> Wikipedia Foundation money I hope it will be used to cover the languages
> of living humans in preference to languages of interest only to fans,
> (...)

Do you mean wikipedias like the latin one should not to exist?

-Riba


from_name: Stirling Newberry

body:
On Feb 10, 2005, at 6:17 AM, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>
> Call numbers serve a different purpose at LOC than LCCNs.  Saying that
> "anything which has had an edition since then has one" is not
> accurate. It's that later edition that has one; the earlier edition
> still does not.  Thus in the Wikipedia [[BibTeX]] article, the example
> given for the Abramovitz and Stegun volume as published by Dover.
> That is not a 1964 publication as the article would suggest.  My
> personal copy of the work is the March 1965 third printing, with
> corrections produced by the US Dept. of Commerce, and has no ISBN.  It
> would be inappropriate to stick Dover's ISBN on that.

First off:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikicite_feature_requests

But I will reply to the categorical assertion of coverage, which is
overly broad. It is only inappropriate to cite a later version of the
work in the references when there is a difference between the editions,
and that difference is important to the article. This isn't to minimize
the point, because while it is a small number of cases, those cases are
important: namely cases where a point is specifically quoted or
paraphrased.

As for the difference purpose at the Library of Congress, what is
important is that any particular identifier locate one particular
edition, which is is assured of doing, having many numerical
identifiers for the same work isn't a problem.

> No-one is suggesting that ISBN is a copyright system.  The extent to
> which ISBNs are commonly used will very much depend on the subject
> matter.  The use is bound to be strong in most of the sciences, but in
> literature and history much of the references can be very old.
>

But other call number systems are under copyright, for example the
primary legal citation system in the US is copyright.

> While I'm certainly not opposing the Wikicite project, my concern
> remains with Wikisource, and how the system as ultimately adopted will
> fit in with that project.  I have raised the issue of citing sources
> on both Wikisource and Wiktionary.  Still, my experience suggests to
> me that a significant fraction of our contributors have a great deal
> of difficulty in grasping the concept or its importance.
>
> Ec
>

Wikicite is a middle layer between sources and articles. The reasons
for having this middle layer are many fold. First, it reduces the work
of generating references. Second, it opens those references to the wiki
process of credibility. Third is that it will connect citations to the
source. If that source exists in wikisource, then the card should have
a pointer to that wikisource object, so that the reader can easily call
up that object, as you will note
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:
Wikicite_project_purpose#Expansion the expansion macro should expressly
create a link to the wikisource object if one has been recorded on the
Wikicite card.

In fact, one of the seeds for wikicite should be the wikisource
database.


from_name: actionforum at comcast.net

body:
Interesting, can anyone create a watch list like this?  Is there documentation of how?

BTW, you might want to add [[neoconservatism]] to the list.  I had to clean up a lot of Jewish conspiracy bias awhile ago.  What remains is well contained and put in perspective.  The opposition I encountered yielded to wiki standards quite reasonably however, so it may not have been them.

                 -- Silverback

-------------- Original message --------------

> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Recentchangeslinked&target=User:Silsor/Neo-nazi_watchlist


from_name: Philip Newton

references:
<mailman.0.1108000743.23119.wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org>
	<BAY103-F32839BCEC9810D39BDEA5DDB760@phx.gbl>
	<BAY103-F32839BCEC9810D39BDEA5DDB760-MsuGFMq8XAE@public.gmane.org>
	<2ea1ace5050209205552f47f41@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:55:05 -0500, Stephen Forrest wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:08:38 +0000, Ron H <aceron99 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
> > Wikimedia.  Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of
> > Tolkien.
>
> ObNitpicking: it is one such language.  Sindarin is the other elvish
> language about which Tolkien wrote a significant amount.  I suppose
> granting a wikipedia for one would make it rather difficult not to
> grant one for the other as well.

Especially since, TTBOMK, the known vocabulary for Sindarin is rather
larger than that for Quenya, making it arguably more suitable for such a
work.

(One problem with Klingon and Toki Pona is, in my opinion, their limited
vocabulary, which makes it difficult to write about a fair number of
subjects. I can well imagine that Quenya will have similar problems;
probably even Sindarin, for that matter, but Quenya even more so.)

> I have been told
> that, crazy as it seems, there are actually Unicode entities for this
> alphabet (though I haven't confirmed this).

Not yet. According to http://www.unicode.org/pending/pending.html,
Tengwar is "in Early Committee Review".

Cheers,
Philip


from_name: Stephen Forrest

body:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:33:35 +1100, David Gerard
<fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Pablo Saratxaga (pablo at mandrakesoft.com) [050211 00:20]:

> > (I feel the same about some dead non-fictional languages, like
> > classical Latin or Anglo-saxon)
>
> That's an interesting point, given the precedent of their existence ...
> though Latin still has life in it as an international auxiliary language.
> What do the Anglo-Saxon volunteers think of this argument?

As a contributor to the Anglo-Saxon wikipedia, I appreciate the point
that ang: is to some extent a playground for enthusiasts.  There are
no native speakers of Old English left, so nobody would go to ang:
simply for information, unless it be information about the language.
This is particularly true since a fair bit (but certainly not all) of
ang: is translated from other wikipedias.

Yet to Pablo Saratxaga's point that there must be a real will to write
an encyclopedia: I have never witnessed any desire on ang: to limit it
to writing about Anglo-Saxon culture or people.  We have nontrivial
articles on scuba diving, number theory, and the Three Kingdoms of
Korea. (We haven't quite gotten to chemistry or Russian literature
yet.)  As for POV, I haven't seen any notable POV issues yet, probably
because the user base isn't large and the effort is more on growing
the encylopedia.

Probably we do give slightly more weight to Anglo-Saxon topics than
most wikipedias with 267 articles: it's easier, as the relevant
terminology already exists and doesn't need to be coined.  But I have
never seen any systematic preference for such topics, or any idea that
we ought to pretend it is 1066 and we are addressing Anglo-Saxons.

For obvious reasons we contributors to ang: are somewhat dependent on
the goodwill of the greater Wikipedia community in having an
encyclopedia at all.  Whether its utility justifies the resources
spent on its existence is a matter for the community to determine, but
I can attest to the fact that there is will on ang: to create a real
encyclopedia.

Steve


body:
Done, I figured out the watchlist thing and added [[Neoconservatism (United States]] myself.  Like a lot of wiki it was pretty easy to figure out, almost self documenting.  Pretty neat.  -- thanx, Silverback

-------------- Original message --------------

> Interesting, can anyone create a watch list like this? Is there documentation
> of how?
>
> BTW, you might want to add [[neoconservatism]] to the list. I had to clean up a
> lot of Jewish conspiracy bias awhile ago. What remains is well contained and
> put in perspective. The opposition I encountered yielded to wiki standards
> quite reasonably however, so it may not have been them.


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rating code

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Muzaffer Ozakca schrieb:
| Hi,
|
| I saw in some of the old posts of a rating mechanism being developed.
I need
| this functionality for a wiki site. Probably not exactly the same kind of
| ratings but still I want to take a look and hopefully contribute.
Which version
| will include it?

Already in, but
a) experimental
b) deactivated
c) not used since the last ice age

| How can I access the rating code?

See includes/SpecialValidate.php

You will have to manually set up a new table in the database. The SQL is in

maintenance/tables.sql
table "validate"

You'll also have to set up a list of properties to validate (quality,
quantity, etc.) and a range for each of these properties (e.g., 1-2 is
yes/no; 1-10 is the infamous rating scale :-)

Magnus
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCCyKuCZKBJbEFcz0RAn9cAJ9bGo18ET07UQ73g7kTV58u301m+wCfZapo
Eh37pVYozbH5K5Kkm9Hhd4Y=
=OHs4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


body:
Anthere wrote:

> Ron H a ?crit:
>
>> I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
>> Wikimedia. Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of
>> Tolkien. Other fictional languages, such as Klingon, already exist on
>> Wikipedia. I speak passing Quenya. I have already prepared several
>> articles, including one on constellations, and would like to add them
>> to a quenya-language wiki.
>>
>> Firsfron on Wikipedia.
>
> I fear this is not gonna happen in the near future Ron.
> Addition of these types of languages tend to be rather controversial
> in the community, so addition of those will probably be suspended
> until the community widely approve them.
>
> I have a suggestion though. Perhaps you could negociate to have a
> wikibooks written in Quenya ?

This is a constructive approach to the problem.  The ability of an
artificial language community to sustain interest in a Wikibook project
to its completion would be a positive indicator that that community is
capable of sustaining bigger things.  It's an opportunity for them to
prove that a real community with an adequate number of editors exists.
The cynic in me would suggest that very few (if any) will be able to
overcome this hurdle.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
>> Ribamar Santarosa de Sousa said:
>> >> (...)
>> >> Wikipedia Foundation money I hope it will be used to cover the
>> >> languages of living humans in preference to languages of interest only
>> >> to fans, (...)
>> >
>> > Do you mean wikipedias like the latin one should not to exist?
>IMHO, Latin is stil lused, e.g., for regular radio broadcasts by the
>Vatican.
>
>Skriptor

So sorry, well, i believe only "living humans" can write articles, so, i
knew i should  not make a literal interpretating on what you said.
Trying to understand you, certainly I  made a wrong presuming on what you
meant. (But now I guess I understand you: Regular radio broadcasts by the
Vatican are made by living humans; people writing the Quenyan wikipedia
wouldn't be living humans).

-Riba


body:
Stan Shebs wrote:

> Neil Harris wrote:
>
>> I think the point Mark is making is that there is a difference
>> between a source actually used when writing the document, and a
>> suggestion for further reading. One suggests that the source was used
>> as a text source or authority, the other does not. Mixing the two up
>> can create a false impression; and unfortunately many editors do not
>> appreciate the differences.
>>
>> There's a big difference between saying "I read this as I wrote this
>> article", "I used this as an authority", and "someone mentioned this
>> in their list of references for another article on the subject".
>
>
> Sure there's a distinction, but it's only interesting for about
> 15 minutes, or less if the next editor comes along sooner. We don't
> value process over product; if a person adds a bit of text but
> justifies with an irrelevant or incorrect citation, we want to fix
> the text or citation or both as necessary.
>
> For instance, in areas where I'm a recognized expert, I can write
> at length from memory, and don't need to refer to any sources at
> all; then the references I include are just for the benefit of
> readers, and other editors who want to check up on me. In other
> areas, I'm carefully paraphrasing the one reference I've been able
> to locate. However, I'm not expected or required to tell anybody
> which of the two processes I used for any particular edit, and even
> if I did, nobody would care much. So it's a distinction without a
> difference.

Certainly if Mark makes an exact quote that can and must be justified by
an exact source.  Careful paraphrasing, which most of us will do if we
don't want to start infringing copyrights, can be based equally well on
any of several texts.  If we paraphrase print author B who had himself
paraphrased earlier print author A; we can still cite author A as a
reference.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Valentine's day!

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>Arwel Parry said:
>
>
>>In message <849f98ed05020914363e274be7 at mail.gmail.com>, Mark Williamson
>> <node.ue-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> writes
>>
>>
>>>Not to spoil your fun, but unlike Christmas there is a much more
>>>international greeting for the same holiday (Valentine's Day) that is
>>>much less likely to alienate or offend others.
>>>
>>>There is no way to say "Happy valentine's day" in O'odham
>>>(Pima/Papago) or Piipaash (Maricopa) or Xalychidoma (Halichidhoma)
>>>without sounding extremely strange and perhaps overly religious - it is
>>>definitely non-traditional and not all speakers of these languages
>>>(well, at least O'odham) know what it is.
>>>
>>>
>>Indeed. It's a cultural thing -- even in Europe, I'm not sure how we'd
>>say it in Welsh as our equivalent is St Dwynwen's Day (25th January).
>>We  had plenty of our own saints and had no need to import Roman ones!
>>
>>
>Hmmm, nice idea smashes into bedrock of cultural diversity.  I suggest
>that unless there is substantial willingness to set up a Wikipedia
>tradition of celebrating Diwali, Eid, Guru Nanak, Beltain, Chinese New
>Year, and whatever, in multiple languages, it's probably best to steer
>clear of this kind of thing altogether.
>
Cultural attitudes about how greetings are expressed can also be varied,
and not translate well.  Even when it's done with the best of intentions
the cultural (rather than just linguistic) translations can seem a like
some kind of contrived pastiche.  Thus a Christmas tree becomes a
"Chanukah bush".

It is a positive evolutionary step that we now say "Happy Valentine's
Day" instead of "Happy St. Valentine's Day".  It shows that we are
getting away from the superstitious underpinnings for the day. ;-)

Ec


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> They would probably be good candidates for Wikicities or something if they
> don't have the technical abilities/resources to set up Mediawiki
> themselves.

Yes, and as with Toki Pona, I would gladly offer to host them with no
advertising, since they come from Wikimedia roots.  And if the
community ever wants them back, that's fine too.

The only reason Klingon hasn't been closed and/or moved yet is just that
I've been waiting to see that the technical/social issues with moving Toki
Pona worked out o.k.

--Jimbo


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Ron H said:
>
>
>
>
> I would like to request adding Quenya to the list of languages on
> Wikimedia.  Quenya is the language of the elves in the works of
> Tolkien. Other fictional  languages, such as Klingon, already exist on
> Wikipedia. I speak passing  Quenya. I have already prepared several
> articles, including one on  constellations, and would like to add them
> to a quenya-language wiki.

Elves, Klingons, etc, do not exist.  They never did exist.  There is no
such thing as elvish culture; Tolkien made it all up.  I believe the only
recorded attempt to raise a child bilingual in Klingon was terminated by
the child at the age of five; I'm unaware of any attempts to raise
children bilingual in Quenya, Sindarin, Orcish or any other fictional
Middle Earth language, but would expect that they'd have a similar
outcome.  I don't have any objection in principle to groups producing
their own encyclopedias in any language, but when it comes to spending
Wikipedia Foundation money I hope it will be used to cover the languages
of living humans in preference to languages of interest only to fans,
hobbyists and linguists.


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> The thing is you're still presupposing that an existing wikipedia has a
> right to block the existence of a new Wikipedia.
>
> I ask the Board: is this the case?

Not speaking here for the board, but only offering my own tentative
opinion, the answer to this is "no" in the general case, but that such
factors can be a part of the overall decision.

I am told repeatedly by many people that while Mandarian and Cantonese
are mutually unintelligible in the spoken form, in written form they
are the same.  This is pretty compelling for me.

If there is a significant population of people who can not read/write
standard written Chinese, but *can* read/write Cantonese in some
writing system that is different, then I want to learn about that,
because that would be a very compelling factor in the other direction.

--Jimbo


subject:
Making your own watch list (Was: [WikiEN-l] Neo-nazis to attack
	wikipedia)

body:
> Interesting, can anyone create a watch list like this?  Is there
> documentation of how?

Yes, anybody can do it, You can have as many different lists as you like,
too.  I have put some articles that I've removed from my Wikipedia
Watchlist into a page called [[User:Tony Sidaway/Watched]].  It's just a
list of wikilinks to the articles.  A button on my user page contains a
link to the following URL, and I just click the button to see recent
changes to articles on the list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Recentchangeslinked/User:Tony_Sidaway/Watch
This enables me to have a relatively small Wikipedia watchlist for
day-to-day use but still oversee many articles via a list that I check
from time to time.
On thing to watch for is that if you insert images or categories into this
list make sure you put a colon before "image:" or "category:", otherwise
the image will appear in the watchlist (and not just a link) or the
watchlist will be added to the category (again, not just a link).


from_name: Thomas Whaples

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Valentine's day!

references:
<4209EBFC.3040607@yahoo.it>
	<4209EBFC.3040607-whZMOeQn8C0@public.gmane.org>
	<849f98ed05020914363e274be7@mail.gmail.com>
	<UxHp7Zt4K3CCFwTm@cartref.demon.co.uk>
	<55046.194.72.110.12.1108047375.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk>
	<420B8696.20908@tonal.clara.co.uk>

body:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Neil Harris wrote:
> Why not make Christmas the featured article each Christmas day, Diwali
> on Diwali, whichever Eid on that Eid day, and so on. They are all major
> cultural events that touch the lives of many millions of our readers.
> (Many millions of our readers? I think I can say that -- scary, isn't
> it?). Covering these festivals will bring in many more readers from
> various cultures and religions, helping reduce the systemic bias towards
> the current dominant editor demographic on en:

Are all these articles featured-article quality? How about something along
the lines of the 'Selected Anniversaries' -- many holidays are, after all,
anniversaries. Or maybe have a box a little bit above it, 'Selected
Holidays'...


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Ribamar Santarosa de Sousa said:
>> (...)
>> Wikipedia Foundation money I hope it will be used to cover the
>> languages of living humans in preference to languages of interest only
>> to fans, (...)
>
> Do you mean wikipedias like the latin one should not to exist?

It's a borderline case.  It's well over a century since scientific papers
were commonly written in Latin, and about forty years since the Second
Vatican Council recommended the abolition of the tridentine mass, which
was predominately Latin.  I studied the language at school but my children
did not.  If the choice today were between Latin and a language with
living native speakers and a strong written culture I would choose the
latter.  But I do not rule out Latin, Klingon, Quenya or Sindarin, but I
hope we'll not place such marginal entities above real people.  Of course
if nobody is prepared to work on a Wikipedia in a given language, the
question does not arise.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Jan Henning said:
>>> Wikipedia Foundation money I hope it will be used to cover the
>>> languages
>>> of living humans in preference to languages of interest only to fans,
>>> (...)
>>
>> Do you mean wikipedias like the latin one should not to exist?
>
> IMHO, Latin is stil lused, e.g., for regular radio broadcasts by the
> Vatican.

The Vatican isn't exactly short of cash.  It could well afford a Latin
Wikipedia of its own.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:

>Jan Henning wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry, I guess I did not manage to correctly convey what I wanted to
>>get across: Latin is not a 'dead' language, in the sense that it is
>>still used today by actual people to communicate information (as
>>
>>
>There actually is an entry [[en:dead language]] that redirects to
>[[en:extinct language]], and the common definition does include Latin,
>since practically no children are brought up speaking this as their
>first and native language.  Now, there is nothing wrong in a language
>being "dead".  But Latin is about as dead as it gets.  Hebrew was de
>facto dead (according to the article), but has been revived.
>
Maybe "historical language" would be a better term.  Sanskrit would be
another, perhaps even proto-indo-european.  It is most important to
distinguish these (whether or not resurrected) from those intended to
satisfy someone's intellectual ideals or fictitious environment.

Ec


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Ribamar Santarosa de Sousa wrote:

>>(...)
>>Wikipedia Foundation money I hope it will be used to cover the languages
>>of living humans in preference to languages of interest only to fans,
>>(...)
>>
>>
>
>Do you mean wikipedias like the latin one should not to exist?
>
>-Riba
>
>
>
>
Latin is, I believe, still in current use as a working language at the
Vatican.

-- Neil


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Jan Henning said:
>
>>> IMHO, Latin is stil lused, e.g., for regular radio broadcasts by the
>>> Vatican.
>>
>> The Vatican isn't exactly short of cash.  It could well afford a Latin
>> Wikipedia of its own.
>
> The Tolkien estate also is unlikely to be short of cash, same as the
> producers of Star Trek... ;-)
>
fx: lightbulb goes on above head.

The Star Wars people might be interested, too, though I'm not aware of any
speakers of far-away-galaxy-a-long-time-ago-ese.  Yet.  Tell Lucasfilm
that Paramount is helping to produce a Klingon wikipedia, though, and
things might change...


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Quenya language request

body:
Pablo Saratxaga wrote:

> If there is a real will to write an encyclopedia, then it should be
> accepted, whatever the language;
> but if there isn't a will to write an encyclopedia of human knowledge,
> then it shouldn't (and I insist on *human* knowledge; while an
> encyclopedia on the world of the Middle Earth would be a very nice
> project, it doesn't fit Wikipedia).

As I tried to indicate earlier, even that concern should take a back
seat to whether there's a need for an encyclopedia in a given language
from the reader's perspective.  What makes Wikipedia work isn't so much
the writers, but the readers -- because the readers BECOME the writers
when they realize that something they want to find in Wikipedia isn't
there, or isn't complete.

That's how I got started in editing Wikipedia: I looked up information
about a dinosaur, out of idle curiosity, and saw that it didn't yet
exist.  I ended up creating the article in English because that's the
language in which I was looking for the information.  How many people
will be able to say that about Quenya?  I think it's telling that the
first we heard about a Quenya Wikipedia was someone who has been sitting
around accumulating self-written articles, and not someone that said
"Hey, I was looking for an article about such-and-such in this language,
but there's no listing for the language.  Can we fix this?"

Nobody's going to put much effort into writing encyclopedia articles
(for very long) that nobody's reading.

--
Chad


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wikicite project pages (english versions only so
	far)

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>I don't recall saying they couldn't, just that I find it irritating.
>
>Adding citations that weren't actually used is bad. Adding references
>or see alsos, good.
>
>Mark
>
>On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:07:59 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Mark Williamson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>If you add text to the article, you may add your own cites and you
>>>won't at all irritate me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Didn't you read the fine print on the edit screen? People can edit
>>your writing in any way that seems good to them and conforms to
>>policy; it's not your place to say that they can't, whether it's
>>to add or change citations, references, see alsos, or whatever.
>>I care much more that the readers see a sensible article than
>>whether my edits irritate you or not.
>>
>>Stan
>>
>>
>>
>>
I think the point Mark is making is that there is a difference between a
source actually used when writing the document, and a suggestion for
further reading. One suggests that the source was used as a text source
or authority, the other does not. Mixing the two up can create a false
impression; and unfortunately many editors do not appreciate the
differences.

There's a big difference between saying "I read this as I wrote this
article", "I used this as an authority", and "someone mentioned this in
their list of references for another article on the subject".

-- Neil


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikicite project pages (english versions only
	so	far)

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>Stirling Newberry <stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> writes:
>
>
>>In fact, one of the seeds for wikicite should be the wikisource
>>database.
>>
>>
>wikicite is superflous.  Use technology that is state of the art, you
>will be able to extract interesting snippets from a document or a
>document system (XML with XPath resp. XPointer).  Zebra (idzebra) is
>such an iplementation (cf. indexdata.dk).
>
That would be very nice in an ideal world.

Using state-of-the-art technology will probably very effectively
accomplish what you say, but at what price?  Retro-compatibility is
essential, because only those most closely acquainted with the
technology can afford to maintain their systems up-to-date.  The
VisiCalc program that I bought in 1982 did everything that I wanted it
to.  I did get away from my Apple II+, but the Microsoft Excel 5.0c from
1994 still does its job.  Many users resent being obliged to buy new
technology when the old one was adequate.

One of the key advantages of the wiki way is that it draws more people
into the ranks of the knowledgeable.  Binding ourselves to
state-of-the-art technology may only result in creating a new elite.  If
we set about destroying the ivory tower it should not be with the sole
purpose of using the debris as a foundation for a new one.

Ec


body:
Thanx, there were some subleties that I did not get from my own perusal, such as how to get those pages that have the "Related changes" options in the toolbox section of the left panel.  It appears they occur automatically when one creates a username/pagename.
                                     -- Silverback

-------------- Original message --------------

> > Interesting, can anyone create a watch list like this? Is there
> > documentation of how?
>
> Yes, anybody can do it, You can have as many different lists as you like,
> too. I have put some articles that I've removed from my Wikipedia
> Watchlist into a page called [[User:Tony Sidaway/Watched]]. It's just a
> list of wikilinks to the articles. A button on my user page contains a
> link to the following URL, and I just click the button to see recent
> changes to articles on the list:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Recentchangeslinked/User:Tony_Sidaway/Watch
> This enables me to have a relatively small Wikipedia watchlist for
> day-to-day use but still oversee many articles via a list that I check
> from time to time.
> On thing to watch for is that if you insert images or categories into this
> list make sure you put a colon before "image:" or "category:", otherwise
> the image will appear in the watchlist (and not just a link) or the
> watchlist will be added to the category (again, not just a link).
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

body:
Kaixo!

On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 04:02:50AM +0000, Arwel Parry wrote:

> Oh, please no. We had an enormous argument about Klingon and even now
> there's only 50 articles on tlh.

And Klingon is a full language, actually used by some fans;
Quenya is fragmentary.

> Is there really a user community large enough to sustain a Quenya
> wikipedia? What would the language code be? And can MediaWiki handle
> Tengwar fonts?

Mediawiki supports unicode, and there is a provisional encoding of
tengwar on plane 17 (I think); and it works nicely.

But the technical problems shouldn't be a criterium for deciding
for or against a given wikipedia.

I'm against a Quenya wikipedia, for the same reason I was against
a Klingon one (and facts proved me right on that one): a Wikipedia
is an encyclopedia, that is, a medium to communicate human knowledge.

So, the key to decide, is if a given language is used (or if there are
good indices that its speakers want to use it) to communicate knowledge.

It isn't enough (and imho, it is completly irrelevant) that there
is litterature in that language (that would be for wikibooks;
and I'm actually favorable for a Klingon or Quenya wikibooks; as
there actually are poetry and litterary texts written in those
languages), the key point is the will to *communicate* in that
language, and to *teach* in that language (just communicate for fun
is not enough either; as the case of Klingon proved; despite the
fact that there are people able to speak in Klingon, and that do
speak in Klingon each other; there is apparently nobody willing to
use Klingon to teach about general knowledge.

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
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