from_name: Schneelocke

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia featured in German weekly magazine

body:
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to let you know that Germany's most influential weekly
magazine, Der Spiegel, has an article on Wikipedia in the "Technik"
(technology) section of their latest edition, titled "Rapunzel bis
Regenzeit". This should be another boost! ^^

Unfortunately, there's no online version of the article available; I'll can
try to do a rough translation for meta in the next week if anyone's
interested, though.

--
 7:47PM  up 27 days,  6:01, 2 users, load averages: 0.11, 0.18, 0.20

Every non-empty totally disconnected perfect compact metric space is
homeomorphic to the Cantor set.


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikitech-l] post-parser for language specific modification

body:
From: "Tomasz Wegrzanowski"
> On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 03:15:05PM +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
> > Can we have a per-language post-parser to be able to make language
specific
> > modification on text before rendering?
> >
> > For example, in French typography, we need to put non-breaking space
before
> > characters ':', ';', '?', '!', '?', after '?' and between numbers
hundreds.
> >
> > Actually, we do that with HTML code   but it make text sometime
very
> > ugly.
> >
> > For exemple :
> >
> >     Il dit : ? Bonjour ! ?
> >
> > Is actually write :
> >
> >     Il dit : ? Bonjour ! ?
> >
> > I don't know if non-breaking space is used in other language typography?
> >
> > An other solution may be to use a WikiSyntax for non-breaking space.
> >
> > For example _ or __ to be convert to
> >
> > The text above may become:
> >
> >     Il dit_: ?_Bonjour !_?
> >
> > Personally I prefer automatic conversion, and if you can make a hook
after
> > the WikiSyntax parse, I can do the PHP function that add non-breaking
space
> > where they must be.
>
> The idea sounds great, but it's very difficult to do right.
> Not everything on X Wikipedia is in language X - you have things in other
languages,
> computer code, etc.
>
> I think it would be nice to convert -- to real dash and _ to  , but
only
> if we can find good way for writing actual "--" and "_" when we want (and
> not only inside <pre> and <nowiki>). TeX-style \_ would be absolutely the
worst
> solution, and HTML-style &under; wouldn't be much better.

In my point of view, meta tag must be separate to the article text.

Convert '_' to   is the simpler way, but I don't see any solution to
solve the problem if this character is used in articles (I never see it in
French article).

What about a post-parse function you may add in default language.php and
that each language may derive to make language specific modification. For
French, it may be very basic function: replace ' !' by ' !' and so on.

In fact, use '_' in instead of   may make article more legible, but the
problem is people may often forgot to put '_' in right place.

Aoineko

----

Render test

Actually:

    Il dit : ? Bonjour ! ?

With '_' convert to

    Il dit_: ?_Bonjour_!_?

With post-parse process:

    Il dit : ? Bonjour ! ?


list: wikien-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Trading with the Enemy

body:
And yes, that was my last comment on the matter.
Already a year old discussion, clearly going no where.
That is unfortunate.
I will try not to bug anyone anymore on this :-)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Separating article and meta-content

body:
In my point of view, meta tag must be separate to the article text. It is
very to disturbing to novice users.

The clean approach is the better approach for me. About how editing meta tag
part, a separate windows may be enough first, but the best may be to have a
check box list under article edit box for tags. For language links, it's a
little bit more difficult. :o/

Aoineko

From: "Erik Moeller"
> I believe we need to start thinking about ways to better separate content
> and metadata. Making them editable separately, and perhaps making either
> type of content filterable, gives us room for expansion in the meta realm
> without impacting editability for users who just want the plain text.
>
> Current meta-tags:
> * interlanguage links
> * __NOTOC__
> * __NOEDITSECTION__
> * category links (experimental)
>
> Possible future meta-tags:
> * <editnote> - shown on top of the edit box during editing, e.g. "Please
> describe new events in the present tense"
> * <sizelimit> - for auto-archiving or size warnings
> * __NOCACHE__
> * __NOTITLE__, __NOSUBTITLE__ for navigational pages, Main Page
> * [[Edition=Print]] and other name=value tags
> * .. anything else that would be useful, but clutter on the article page
>
> I see two possibilities, one of which I call the hackish approach and the
> other the clean approach.
>
> == The hackish approach ==
>
> Add a new tag, called <meta>. Content within <meta>..</meta> is shown in a
> separate window, like this:
>
> <pre>
>  _________________________________________
> |                                         |
> | The PURINA brand of dogfood is very     |
> | tasty. Critics allege that it is made   |
> | of harvested souls from children        |
> | in the third world.                     |
> |_________________________________________|
>  _________________________________________
> | [[de:Fnord]] [[simple:Wormwood]]        |
> | __NOTOC__ [[Category:Dogfood]]          |
> | <editnote>Do not edit after dark</editn |
> |_________________________________________|
> [ SAVE ] [ PREVIEW ]
> </pre>
>
> There would be an option to hide meta-information during editing, and one
> to use the old (single-window) behavior.
>
> The meta-content would be part of the regular cur_text, it would be simply
> concatenated with it / split away from it on demand.
>
> Advantages:
> * Relatively easy to implement
> * single diffs for edits that change meta content and article content
>
> Disadvantages:
> * regular editing can still cause edit conflicts with meta-editing
> * no easy filtering of meta-editing from RC, diffs
>
> == The clean approach ==
>
> It would of course be cleaner to separate meta-content in the database. If
> we desire to do this, we should do it as part of the pending database
> redesign. In this case we would have a text blob and a meta blob which
> could be edited separately without conflicts. Any edit of a text or meta
> blob would result in an entry in the recent changes log.
>
> The most problematic effect of this change would probably be on the page
> history. Again, the most logical approach would be to list a change to
> either meta or article-content in the history, but perhaps in separate
> color.
>
> Disadavantage:
> * requires table redesign, might affect quite a few pages
> * more difficult but not impossible to maintain single window behavior
> * complicates diffs, esp. summary diffs
>
> Advantages:
> * makes it easy to filter meta-edits from RC, history
> * meta-edits cannot cause edit conflicts with regular ones
> * storing and retrieving the different types of data is a lot easier and
> less error-prone
>
> == Thoughts? ==
>
> I think before we go any further into the meta area, we need to clean up
> the separation, otherwise we'll end up confusing newbies. I'd appreciate
> feedback on how to do this.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: WikiGIS perhaps?

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:

>Elly Waterman wrote:
>
>
>>In the Netherlands, most GIS data are owned by publicly funded
>>organisations, but cannot be used freely. To the contrary these data a very
>>expensive.
>>
>>
>
>This is the case in most of Europe.  The issue is discussed on the
>EGIP mailing list (European Geographic Information Policy),
>http://www.ec-gis.org/egip/
>
>
 From that, I can't seem to figure out if the issue is an access one (we
can't get the data) or a legal one (we're not allowed to use the data).
If the latter, I think we can safely ignore it, at least in the US: a
simple database of factual data is not copyrightable in the US, so once
we can our hands on it, we can do whatever we want with it, regardless
of what the person who put the data together says we can do with it.

-Mark


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

body:
On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 07:53:23PM +0100, Schneelocke wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I just wanted to let you know that Germany's most influential weekly
> magazine, Der Spiegel, has an article on Wikipedia in the "Technik"
> (technology) section of their latest edition, titled "Rapunzel bis
> Regenzeit". This should be another boost! ^^
>
> Unfortunately, there's no online version of the article available; I'll can
> try to do a rough translation for meta in the next week if anyone's
> interested, though.

and right now Wikipedia is getting inaccessibly due to a news-report
on RTL2 television.

sorry.

--
http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
   -.-       http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
   /|>	           http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com
   / \                 http://tinyurl.com/u6de


from_name: Peter Jaros

subject: [WikiEN-l] Concise Print Wikipedia is a Fork

body:
On Feb 29, 2004, at 10:30 AM, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> Pointers to "good enough" versions is going to be helpful, and then of
> course once we have a "manuscript", the publisher will probably want
> to copyedit it one last time, and may need to make some slight
> modifications in order to fit some technical print requirements.

(Note: this email is rated PG for minor suggestion of forking.  Parental
discretion is advised.)

I appreciate this idea, and until I heard a good deal of this thread I
agreed,
but I think there is a flaw.  While a pointer system lets the online
article
grow with it's print cousin, most of the time any good online version
is going
to need more than a little copyedit and "slight modifications".  Others
on this
list have mentioned that links explain information in the 'Pedia, and
we need to
add info at those reference points to compensate for that.  This is one
example;
there have been others.  In these cases, it seems more appropriate to
work on a
separate version.

Now we have the thesis and antithesis.  The synthesis is to use
pointers to cull
articles, then go through those picked and "fork" (there, I said it).
This fork
will have good versions of good articles to make the minor edits to.
The idea
is that at this point there are no edits which need to be made which
ought to be
in the online 'Pedia too.  The fork would be for edits necessary for a
print
version.

Peter

                                  -- ---<>--- --
                        A house without walls cannot fall.
           Help build the world's largest encyclopedia at Wikipedia.org
                                  -- ---<>--- --


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Trading with the Enemy

body:
On 03/01/04 19:23, Stan Shebs wrote:
> Caroline Ford wrote:
>> Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>>> Anyway, the Wikipedia won't be endorsing or condemning the RWB rankings,
>>> and the articl on [[freedom of the press]] should make it clear to
>>> readers that the US is widely regarded as tops in press freedom, having
>>> practically pioneered the concept.

*splutter*

>> Even if it isn't? How much money do you need to publish a paper in the
>> US anyway?

> Inkjets are under $100 I think, and if that's too much, there's always
> Kinko's.
> And don't sneer, it's been done a lot by alternative outlets. Of course,
> the Web
> is so much cheaper now that only a handful of older technophobes still use
> dead-tree media. 1/2 :-)

Everyone who's received a legal threat from Sc*nt*l*gy knows that Holland
is the only place for hosting. (Modulo EUCD.)

- d.


from_name: Caroline Ford

subject: [WikiEN-l] Good news!

body:
Dan Miller wrote:

>I just called the Democratic National Committee to ask
>if they would be willing to licence some of their
>images under the GFDL (I was hoping to get a photo for
>[[Terry McAuliffe]]).  Anyway, the person I spoke to
>said that "We probably won't have any problems
>licencing them to you", but wanted it in writing.  So,
>I have a question regarding image copyright.
>
>Does an email constitute permission to use these? And
>should I store it? That is, what format is necessary
>for the permission?
>
>The even better news is this: when I called, I
>launched into my little shpiel about how "I'm calling
>on behalf of the Wikipedia, we're trying to put
>together a free-content encyclopedia".  He stopped me
>in the middle of my sentence and said "Of course I've
>heard of the Wikipedia."  It kind of made my day.
>
>Meelar
>
>
>
Fabulous!
But licensing them to us, is not the same as licensing under the GFDL...

Caroline


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Trading with the Enemy

body:
On 03/01/04 21:22, John C. Penta wrote:
> From: David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au>

>>Everyone who's received a legal threat from Sc*nt*l*gy knows that
>>Hollandis the only place for hosting. (Modulo EUCD.)

> Huh?

Holland doesn't have the DMCA yet - at present, the method of taking
down a web page is to sue the alleged violator, then the page goes
down when you win and not before. (See http://www.kspaink.net/ .)
This may change with the EUCD.

- d.


from_name: Thomas Luft

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Deleting page histories

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jimmy Wales wrote:
| I think that this is pretty important, too.  Can you please raise the
| license issue gently over there?  It's better to keep a copyvio around
| in the page history for a little while, until a developer can delete
| it by hand, than to do what they are doing.
|
| Your idea for a feature is a very good one, too.
I hacked some code during this evening which enables deletion of single
revisions. It is quick and dirty and does not provide any security
(confirmation, checking if the revision still exists) but it works. Here
are the diffs (hope this is correct, if not I will mail the complete
files to some of the developers):
includes/PageHistory.php
84,85c84,85
<                       $s .= $this->historyLine(
<                               $this->mArticle->getTimestamp(),
- ---
|                       $s .= $this->historyLine(
|                               $this->mArticle->getTimestamp(),
89c89
<                               ( $this->mArticle->getMinorEdit() > 0 )
- ---
|                               ( $this->mArticle->getMinorEdit() > 0 )
188a189,190
|               // Add a link to delete only this revision of the page
history
|               $dellink = $this->mSkin->makeKnownLink( $artname, $cur,
"delold=($oid)");
192c194
<               $s .= "({$curlink}) (!OLDID!{$oid}!) $arbitrary . .";
- ---
|               $s .= "({$curlink}) (!OLDID!{$oid}!) ($dellink)
$arbitrary . .

index.php:
88a89,91
|               case "delold":
|                       $wgArticle->$action($oid);
|                       break;

includes/Article.php:
943a944,986
|       function delold () {
|               global $wgUser, $wgOut, $wgMessageCache;
|
|               $fname = "Article::DeleteOld";
|               wfDebug( "$fname\n" );
|
|               if ( ( ! $wgUser->isSysop() ) ) {
|                       $wgOut->sysopRequired();
|                       return;
|               }
|               if ( wfReadOnly() ) {
|                       $wgOut->readOnlyPage();
|                       return;
|               }
|               /* The following is a suggestion to store the deleted
copyvio in a seperate
|                  table named. I am not sure if this is useful and of
course we could use
|                  the archive table for this. */
|               /*
|               $sql = "INSERT INTO copyvio
(cv_namespace,cv_title,cv_text," .
|
"cv_comment,cv_user,cv_user_text,cv_timestamp,cv_minor_edit," .
|                 "cv_flags) SELECT
old_namespace,old_title,old_text,old_comment," .
|
"old_user,old_user_text,old_timestamp,old_minor_edit,old_flags " .
|                 "FROM old WHERE oid='{$oid}'";";
|               wfQuery( $sql, DB_WRITE, $fname );
|               */
|               $sql = "DELETE FROM old WHERE oid='{$oid}'";
|               $wgOut->addHTML( "<p>" . $sql );
|               //wfQuery( $sql, DB_WRITE, $fname );
|
|               $wgOut->setPagetitle( wfMsg( "actioncomplete" ) );
|               $wgOut->setRobotpolicy( "noindex,nofollow" );
|
|               $sk = $wgUser->getSkin();
|               $loglink = $sk->makeKnownLink( $wgLang->getNsText(
|                 Namespace::getWikipedia() ) .
|                 ":" . wfMsg( "dellogpage" ), wfMsg( "deletionlog" ) );
|
|               $text = wfMsg( "deletedtext", $deleted, $loglink );
|
|               $wgOut->addHTML( "<p>" . $text );
|               $wgOut->returnToMain( false );
|       }
|

languages/Language.php
406d405
<       "Allmessages"   => "All system messages",
757a757
| "del"                 => "del",
1170a1171
| "deletedcopyvio" => "The old version of this article has been deleted",

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFAQ8baUfI+mHkmMg8RAjNVAKC98RsgJh2bXdB2sNdwRpjM4rSGwACgkjOy
JVuoifyjYctitbmxKePJ6Gw=
=uDJu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikitech-l] wrong months shown in en: Webalizer stats

body:
Please take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/stats/

December and January data are from an earlier year.
Dec 2002 and Jan 2003 instead of Dec 2003 and Jan 2004

The files that were supposed to be linked here do not exist
E.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/stats/usage_200401.html

I will soon add detailed wikistats based on these files,
so a two month gap in en: data would be a pity.

However, please do not delete the 'obsolete' files shown from disk.
They should not be linked from en.wikipedia.org/stats
but I'd like to parse any access history that is available for wikistats.

Erik Zachte


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: post-parser for language specific modification

body:
> Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 07:54:35PM +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
> >
> >>What about a post-parse function you may add in default language.php and
> >>that each language may derive to make language specific modification.
For
> >>French, it may be very basic function: replace ' !' by ' !' and so
on.
> >
> > Never written article about programming ?
>
> Where would it ever matter to have a non-breaking space, which is
> visually indistinguishable from an ordinary space?

In French typography, a non-breaking space must be place before sign like
[:] so that a line break (caused by display width fit) never occur between
[:] and the preceding word. It's same for [;], [!], [?], [?] and [?]. And
for numbers, each hundred must also be separated with non-breaking space.
The simple way I see to do that is to write article with normal space (0x13)
then convert them (when necessary) to   before render the page. It may
be easily done after Wiki-syntax parsing by remplacing pair of characters
(ex: [0x13][:] => [ ][:]).

Aoineko


from_name: Constans, Camille (C.C.)

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki-images?

body:
>-----Message d'origine-----
>De : engelsAG at t-online.de [mailto:engelsAG at t-online.de]
>Envoy? : lundi 1 mars 2004 14:43
>? : wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>Objet : RE: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki-images?
>
>
>"Constans, Camille (C.C.)" <cconsta4 at ford.com> schrieb:
>
>> I see no pb to create a new one, but we'll have to create a
>new one for each language, no ?
>
>No, that would at least not be my idea. I'd rather see a single one,
>otherwise we will still be doing the same work over and over again in
>the various languages, rather than find new things to include.
>
>> And idea would be to upload pictures, and having the
>possibility to write in diffferent language about this picture.
>
>That sounds much better. Personally I would just use English, and hope
>that the majority of people looking for images knows enough English to
>use that text, but if someone else wants to do antother
>language, that's
>fine with me too.

There's many people in the world which know nothing about english, I have a lot of these people in my work and I work in an american firm based in France :). I dont think we can create this project only in english.

Shaihulud


from_name: Allan Crossman

subject: [Wikitech-l] The abomination that is powerpedia.org

body:
Is there a way to prevent abominations like www.powerpedia.org, which
put Wikipedia in a frame with their own adverts? While that
particular site is probably not very important, I can see this
becoming more of an issue. Would it be possible for Wikipedia pages
to use that lovely bit of Javascript so common nowadays, which
automatically breaks out of frames? It looks something like:

<script language="JavaScript">
<!--

function SymError()
{
  return true;
}

window.onerror = SymError;

var SymRealWinOpen = window.open;

function SymWinOpen(url, name, attributes)
{
  return (new Object());
}

window.open = SymWinOpen;

//-->
</script>

<body onload="var SymTmpWinOpen = window.open; window.open =
SymWinOpen; delayedreload(); window.open = SymTmpWinOpen;">

--
Allan Crossman - http://dogma.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
PGP keys - 0x06C4BCCA (new) || 0xCEC9FAE1 (compatible)


from_name: Arwel Parry

subject: [Wikitech-l] Request for language file advice

body:
Could someone knowledgeable in the quirks of language files please take
a look at [[m:Advice needed on LanguageXX.php files]], please? We've
recently implemented LanguageCy.php which works pretty well, but we've
somehow managed to break {{msg:...}}, among other things.

The meta article describes the few problems we've noted so far, and
ideas for how to fix them would be gratefully received.

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Hmm

body:
I wrote:

> Would it be possible for Wikipedia pages to use that lovely bit
> of Javascript so common nowadays, which automatically breaks
> out of frames?

And I see we already do. Doh.

Still, how come it ain't working in this instance?

--
Allan Crossman - http://dogma.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
PGP keys - 0x06C4BCCA (new) || 0xCEC9FAE1 (compatible)


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: New "GNU Free Media Licence"? - was: What
	would Richard Stallman say?

body:
Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
> Scaling down an image is a lossy operation, so the owner needn't worry that we
> we (or someone using Wikipedia material) scaled that image back up - the

Isn't that just like distributing object code?  The more detailed
image could (in some respect) be considered the source code.

Are there any "GNU" image projects that have dealt with this already?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: The abomination that is powerpedia.org

references:
<4043E6EF.27237.594BBD@localhost>
	<sh1xobeoq7.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de> <404433FF.5000809@hotmail.com>

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> >It is not allowed what they are doing.  Thus, it is a social problem,
> >don't try to solve it with technical messures.
>
> Technical measures are often effective to solve social problems. It's
> easier than suing. You're better off locking your door than prosecuting
> anyone who enters for trespassing.

I agree.

However, in this case, I'm not really very upset about what they were
doing in the first place.  Still, I defer to the decision that was
made about javascript and frame breaking, because I strongly suspect
that the general consensus of the wikipedia community would not agree
with me.

--Jimbo


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
I would like to have a page of article titles which (a) Columbia Concise
has but (b) Wikipedia doesn't. It would stimulate us to find existing
articles or to write new articles.

This would be a good idea in any case. And same goes for a comparison
with Britannica or Americana.

On the other hand, speed is not of the essence. There is no prize for
being quick. My goal is accuracy and thoroughness, not "how fast can we
beat those guys".

Remember, it takes the paid professionals a decade or more to prepare a
new edition. We started with nothing more than Larry's outline!!

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed
User ID #188    <=== I am one of the first 200 people to sign up!!!!


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: [Wikitech-l] The abomination that is powerpedia.org

body:
Does the GNU Free Documentation License give everyone the right to stick
a frame around the Wikipedia and rename it, as Sterling has done?

What's the difference between hijacking and proper use?

Is Sterling making a mockery of Jimbo's promise not to have ads in
Wikipedia?

Someone explain this to me, please.

Ed Poor (speaking for myself only)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
Magnus,

Please re-post your list, divided up into smaller pages, like:

A
B
C
...
M to Mc
Mc to Mz
...
XYZ

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

in_reply_to:
<4043E6EF.27237.594BBD@localhost> (Allan Crossman's message of
	"Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:44:15 -0000")

body:
"Allan Crossman" <a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk> writes:

> Is there a way to prevent abominations like www.powerpedia.org, which
> put Wikipedia in a frame with their own adverts?

It is not allowed what they are doing.  Thus, it is a social problem,
don't try to solve it with technical messures.

> While that particular site is probably not very important, I can see
> this becoming more of an issue. Would it be possible for Wikipedia
> pages to use that lovely bit of Javascript so common nowadays, which
> automatically breaks out of frames?

They can use a prefilter to through away this code, though.  Better
tell them it is illegal what they are doing and ask them to stop
stealing bandwidth.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


in_reply_to:
<942EkJ$hpVB@erik_moeller> (Erik Moeller's message of "01 Mar
	2004 10:32:00 +0100")

body:
erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:

> I believe we need to start thinking about ways to better separate content
> and metadata.

Yes, and please, let's go for SGML/XML now.  I'd recommend to make use
of a customized TEI DTD: http://www.tei-c.org

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Columbia and Copyright

body:
I just want to emphasize, again, that my suggestion was NOT that
we should do this.  It'd be a bad idea on simple editorial grounds.

I only mean that we could use their topic list to do a basic size
comparison.

Michael Snow wrote:

> Martin Harper wrote:
>
> >>Auppose [the Wikipedia print edition] snagged the
> >>same 55,000 topics as Columbia?  How big would the resulting
> >>text be?
> >>
> >>
> >Wouldn't selecting the exact same 55,000 topics as Colombia be a possible
> >copyright infringement? Choosing an appropriate selection of topics for a
> >concise encyclopedia is a creative act...
> >
> It would indeed. In fact, it's probably one of the better openings we
> could provide for our natural rivals to sue us. Encyclopedia topic
> selection is definitely copyrightable. And given this kind of opening,
> if Columbia really wanted to take Wikipedia down, they could also
> recruit other parties with copyright claims and front the cost of the
> litigation. (For example, the various copyright owners of the images we
> included, if we haven't screened those properly.)
>
> I doubt choosing the exact same topics as Columbia is realistic,
> however. We have different naming conventions, and therefore quite a few
> of the topics would not coincide exactly.
>
> --Michael Snow

> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> Does the GNU Free Documentation License give everyone the right to stick
> a frame around the Wikipedia and rename it, as Sterling has done?

I would say that this is a linking issue, not a copyright issue, and
that yes, they have the right -- GNU FDL or no -- to link to us in
that fashion.

And we also have the right to change our pages to use javascript to
break out of their frame.

> What's the difference between hijacking and proper use?

Well, I'm more or less ambivalent about this particular use.

Generally, the problem would be that they are showing ads and making
money, but letting the Wikimedia Foundation foot the bill for the
bandwidth.  Proper use would be copying it to their own server (in
compliance with the license, of course) and paying the bandwidth bill.
Hijacking would be "faking it" in a way that makes us pay the bill.

Except, as I said, I'm more or less ambivalent about it in this case.

> Is Sterling making a mockery of Jimbo's promise not to have ads in
> Wikipedia?

Well, people can of course properly license the content and have ads
if they want.  I think people object, and sensibly so, even though it
doesn't bother me personally much, that someone else would be making
money from ads while we foot the bill for bandwidth.

In this particular case, the amount of traffic is likely to remain
close to zero.  I make this estimate because the proprietor wants to
talk about "free energy" which isn't positive proof of poor thinking
skills, but does give me cause to doubt the success of his endeavor.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Good news!

body:
You know what would be great?  If we had a standard form for people to
use.  You could mail to to this person by paper mail with a return
address to the Wikimedia Foundation, and when the permissions come in,
I can store them for future due diligence on the part of a publisher
or reuser or whatever.

It could be carefully worded by the community so as not to frighten
people.  :-)

--Jimbo

Dan Miller wrote:

> I just called the Democratic National Committee to ask
> if they would be willing to licence some of their
> images under the GFDL (I was hoping to get a photo for
> [[Terry McAuliffe]]).  Anyway, the person I spoke to
> said that "We probably won't have any problems
> licencing them to you", but wanted it in writing.  So,
> I have a question regarding image copyright.
>
> Does an email constitute permission to use these? And
> should I store it? That is, what format is necessary
> for the permission?
>
> The even better news is this: when I called, I
> launched into my little shpiel about how "I'm calling
> on behalf of the Wikipedia, we're trying to put
> together a free-content encyclopedia".  He stopped me
> in the middle of my sentence and said "Of course I've
> heard of the Wikipedia."  It kind of made my day.
>
> Meelar
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Good news

body:
I need this too because someone from Camille Paglia's university is
offering us a picture of her (and wrote to me out of the blue), and
it'd be great if I had a standard release form they could sign and
send to me.

Dan Miller wrote:

> Caroline Ford wrote:
>
> >Fabulous!
> >But licensing them to us, is not the same as
> >licensing under the
> >GFDL...
>
> >Caroline
>
> I know.  That's why I'm trying to get a good template
> for a letter or email, explaining the GFDL and
> assorted legal info.  Is such a thing available
> somewhere, or should I just steer them to
> [[Wikipedia:Copyrights]]?
>
> Meelar
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Karl-
> They can use a prefilter to through away this code, though.  Better
> tell them it is illegal what they are doing and ask them to stop
> stealing bandwidth.

powerpedia.org is not some deliberate scam, it's an attempt by one
Wikipedia user to set up a "free energy" section on Wikipedia as a subset
of his user pages. That will of course not be allowed. The reason for the
ads / frame capture is that he used some cheap ass domain service that is
sponsored by doing just that. These domains are normally registered for
people's *own* use, not for capturing someone else's content. That's why
it is highly unlikely that they would take the effort to circumvent our
frame-breaker.

So for now, this seems like a perfectly appropriate solution. Thanks,
Brion!

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Good news!

body:
Jimbo wrote:
>You know what would be great?  If we had a standard
>form for people to use.

Ask and ye shall receive! Well, it was there before...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Confirmation_of_permission

--mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
>
>> Timwi wrote:
>>
>>> Where would it ever matter to have a non-breaking space, which is
>>> visually indistinguishable from an ordinary space?
>>
>>
>> In French typography, [...]
>
>
> I know all that. That's not what I asked.

Does it make any difference in article titles?

Ec


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
At 07:40 AM 3/2/2004 -0800, Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>Magnus,
>
>Please re-post your list, divided up into smaller pages, like:

If you do, however, please exclude any links to already-existing articles.
The previous time the list was on Wikipedia I went through it and removed
such links, and found about a thousand orphans had been "hidden" by their
one link from that page.


from_name: redgum46 at lycos.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Hi! :-)

body:
Argh, i don't like  the plaintext  :)

..btw,  "22061"  is a password for  archive
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from_name: jwrosenzweig at yahoo.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] ello! =))

body:
Argh,  i  don't like the  plaintext :)

..btw,  "22061" is a  password  for archive
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from_name: Timwi

body:
Guillaume Blanchard wrote:

> Timwi wrote:
>
>>Where would it ever matter to have a non-breaking space, which is
>>visually indistinguishable from an ordinary space?
>
> In French typography, [...]

I know all that. That's not what I asked.


body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 03:41:15PM +0000, Timwi wrote:
>
>>Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 07:54:35PM +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
>>>
>>>>What about a post-parse function you may add in default language.php and
>>>>that each language may derive to make language specific modification. For
>>>>French, it may be very basic function: replace ' !' by ' !' and so
>>>>on.
>>>
>>>Never written article about programming ?
>>
>>Where would it ever matter to have a non-breaking space, which is
>>visually indistinguishable from an ordinary space?
>
> Uhm, it would matter to have "_" character available, so we can't
> just s/_/&nbsb;/g.

Right. Of course, that makes sense. The "_" character must be typable
(and easier than <nowiki>_</nowiki>).

My suggestion would have been to require __ (two underscores) for one
 . Since two underscores occur rarely in "reality", it probably
would be OK to require <nowiki>__</nowiki> should they really ever come up.


from_name: James Rosenzweig

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Previous Message From "Me"

body:
So it's clear, my earlier message was not a cryptic
request (a la Plautus) to launch covert operations.  A
virus bounced at my mailbox and then sent that weird
message elsewhere, "spoofing" as though it had come
from me.  My apologies. :-)

James Rosenzweig

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Hmm

body:
Allan Crossman wrote:

> I wrote:
>
>>Would it be possible for Wikipedia pages to use that lovely bit
>>of Javascript so common nowadays, which automatically breaks
>>out of frames?
>
> And I see we already do. Doh.

Brion only just added it.

> Still, how come it ain't working in this instance?

It is working. Your browser is probably using a cached version of
http://en.wikipedia.org/style/wikibits.js. Reload this file, then go
back to Wikipedia. Or clear your cache. :)

Timwi


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi! :-)

body:
FYI, the message below was an attempt to send a virus to the listserv:

>Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:26:12 -0500
>From: redgum46 at lycos.com
>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Hi! :-)
>To: WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>Message-ID: <syjosdecffykveimgsb at lycos.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Argh, i don't like  the plaintext  :)
>
>..btw,  "22061"  is a password for  archive
>-------------- next part --------------
>A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>Name: Attach.zip
>Type: application/octet-stream
>Size: 21033 bytes
>Desc: not available
>Url :
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20040302/5b382a0e/Attach.obj

Since the file attachment was scrubbed, no harm was done, but since
this virus is making the rounds I thought people would like to know.

In all likelihood, this message was not sent from
<redgum46 at lycos.com>'s computer. This virus spoofs email addresses
that it finds in the address book of computers it infects.

The specific virus that was sent is either "WORM_BAGLE.F" or a close variant
called "WORM_BAGLE.G" (also known as "Win32.Bagle.F" or "Win32.Bagle.G").
Technical information and instructions on how to deal with it can be found
at the following URLs:

http://www.norman.com/virus_info/w32_bagle_f_mm.shtml

http://www3.ca.com/virusinfo/virus.aspx?ID=38444

http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.asp?VName=WORM_BAGLE.F

--Sheldon Rampton


from_name: Nathan Russell

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Poor, Edmund W wrote:
| Does the GNU Free Documentation License give everyone the right to stick
| a frame around the Wikipedia and rename it, as Sterling has done?
|
| What's the difference between hijacking and proper use?
|
| Is Sterling making a mockery of Jimbo's promise not to have ads in
| Wikipedia?
|
| Someone explain this to me, please.
|
| Ed Poor (speaking for myself only)

It's possible (and easy) to use javascript to break out of any previous
frames.

I can post an example code here sometime when I'm not running late for
class.

Nathan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Netscape6 - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFARKnXMUlnNfyqpaMRAjqrAJ4pfXmV3g64ngFDD2Hvczx6/Hpg3QCfY1BJ
Tke6yeziLn/s7V/mxkNrCbM=
=qM+w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: wikipedia access denied

body:
Peter Jaros wrote:

> Sometimes this will work in IE.

Well, in Firefox is works always :)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Columbia and Copyright

body:
Why not write to Columbia and ask them if they'd like to do their own
"article diff" and then give us a list with their blessings?

Meanwhile, there's nothing to stop individual Wikipedians from looking
up topics one at a time in Columbia Concise and then searching Wikipedia
for a corresponding topic.

We're not competing with paid professionals. They have one thing we
don't: the backing of an authoritative body. We have one thing they
don't: complete openness to input from anyone in the world.

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Good news!

body:
Caroline Ford wrote:

> But licensing them to us, is not the same as licensing under the GFDL...

Yeah. I was just about to say that.

You should probably make sure they understand what the GFDL is all
about, and that it's not centrally about Wikipedia.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: WikiGIS perhaps?

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:

>Delirium wrote:
>
>> From that, I can't seem to figure out if the issue is an access one (we
>>can't get the data) or a legal one (we're not allowed to use the data).
>>If the latter, I think we can safely ignore it, at least in the US: a
>>simple database of factual data is not copyrightable in the US, so once
>>we can our hands on it, we can do whatever we want with it, regardless
>>of what the person who put the data together says we can do with it.
>>
>
>I haven't looked deeper into this, but there is always contract law
>that can cover holes in copyright law (you get raw data under an
>agreement that you will pay damages if it gets disseminated).  If you
>only speak English, you could start to dig out mapping data from
>Britain or Ireland.  Many Europeans think "it cannot be done", and
>need the inspiration from outsiders with a naive view of things.
>
>Ordnance Survey Britain, http://www.ordsvy.gov.uk/
>Ordnance Survey Ireland, http://www.osi.ie/
>
What this issue all comes down to is what do we want on a map and in how
much detail.  Do we want an overlay system, and is it technically feasible?

A project to develop a totally wikifiable map system would be ideal.  My
first approach would be to look at the possibility of creating a series
of 1-degree-square maps for the entire world.  That's 360 x 180 =
 64,800 maps (but with only 1/3 of these being for land areas)  If these
are done as a series of overlays the reader should be able to choose
which features he wants to include.

I don't see copyright as a big problem unless we want to start insisting
that we need to copy other work that is already on the net.  The
1-degree squares are not in such a fine scale that it can't be created
from public domain material.  Even if in the worst case we consider only
the United States and Antarctica (for which the USGS has accepted
mapping responsibility), that's a lot of work that will keep many people
busy because of the large geographical expanse in these areas alone.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia encyclopedia article titles

body:
Okay, I wrote a few stubs, made a bunch of redirects. See St - Ta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Columbia_Encyclopedia_article_tit
les_(38)

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed


subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Hi.
>
> Yesterday I did this little comparison that Jimmy Wales asked me to
> do, to see how large our encyclopedia would be if we covered the same
> topics as Columbia.
>
> Among other things, the result revealed that about half of their
> article titles do not have corresponding titles on Wikipedia.
>
> My question is whether we want to do something about this (create
> redirects). I would like to dump the huge list of article titles we
> don't have onto some page in the Wikipedia namespace, and have our
> bulk of volunteers work through them and create redirects to the
> relevant pages, or mark some as "we *really* don't have something
> about this topic" if applicable.
>
> Would such an effort be warranted?

Tools that give us an idea of things that still need to be done are
almost always helpful.  Creating a long series of redirects, however,
does not seem helpful.  It would be better to leave them alone fo people
who are looking for something to work on.  Undoubtedly, as when we have
simply used a different title or title format, a redirect will be the
appropriate course of action, but these decisions should all be on a
one-by-one, hands-on basis.

Ec


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Timwi wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> Yesterday I did this little comparison that Jimmy Wales asked me to
>> do, to see how large our encyclopedia would be if we covered the same
>> topics as Columbia.
>>
>> Among other things, the result revealed that about half of their
>> article titles do not have corresponding titles on Wikipedia.
>>
>> My question is whether we want to do something about this (create
>> redirects). I would like to dump the huge list of article titles we
>> don't have onto some page in the Wikipedia namespace, and have our
>> bulk of volunteers work through them and create redirects to the
>> relevant pages, or mark some as "we *really* don't have something
>> about this topic" if applicable.
>>
>> Would such an effort be warranted?
>
>
> Tools that give us an idea of things that still need to be done are
> almost always helpful.  Creating a long series of redirects, however,
> does not seem helpful.  It would be better to leave them alone fo
> people who are looking for something to work on.  Undoubtedly, as when
> we have simply used a different title or title format, a redirect will
> be the appropriate course of action, but these decisions should all be
> on a one-by-one, hands-on basis.

The comma-separated names like "Agualho, Cape", have one valuable
property; they sort correctly in a list of all articles. This will be
a key step in producing a print version, and it's not always possible
to algorithmically determine the right sort key. (Meta-info could do
this too, but it's not been implemented.)

Stan


subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>I would like to have a page of article titles which (a) Columbia Concise
>has but (b) Wikipedia doesn't. It would stimulate us to find existing
>articles or to write new articles.
>
>This would be a good idea in any case. And same goes for a comparison
>with Britannica or Americana.
>
Exactly.  These should never be anything more than useful tools.
 Someone has raised the question of whether using Columbia's list of
articles would be a copyright violation.  Probably yes, but why would we
want to use it that way in the first place?  It should be nothing more
than a long series of ideas to consider, rather than a model for
organizing Wikipedia.

>On the other hand, speed is not of the essence. There is no prize for
>being quick. My goal is accuracy and thoroughness, not "how fast can we
>beat those guys".
>
The prospect of a print edition in the near future should not spur
people into a massive production campaign designed to quickly fill ALL
the gaps.  There will be plenty of time to fill these for future editions.

>Remember, it takes the paid professionals a decade or more to prepare a
>new edition. We started with nothing more than Larry's outline!!
>
Let's be fair.  Those other encyclopedias had to cope with the problem
of Parkinsonian work expansion.  Or at least the corollory:  Work
expands to accomodate available salaries.

>Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed
>User ID #188    <=== I am one of the first 200 people to sign up!!!!
>
At #372, that makes me almost half your age.

Ec


from_name: David Speakman

body:
>-----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Poor, Edmund W
>Does the GNU Free Documentation License give everyone the right to
stick a frame around the Wikipedia and rename it, as Sterling has done?
>What's the difference between hijacking and proper use?
>Is Sterling making a mockery of Jimbo's promise not to have ads in
Wikipedia?
>Someone explain this to me, please.

_______________________________________________

Davodd:
I say we do add a small Java script to the pages that busts frames.
Something like:

<script language="JavaScript">
<!-- Hide script from older browsers
if (parent.frames.length > 0) {
    parent.location.href = self.document.location
}
// end hiding contents -->
</script>

--
David Speakman
http://www.DavidSpeakman.com
501 Moorpark Way #83
Mountain View CA 94041
Phone: 408-348-1786


subject: [WikiEN-l] Good news!

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>You know what would be great?  If we had a standard form for people to
>use.  You could mail to to this person by paper mail with a return
>address to the Wikimedia Foundation, and when the permissions come in,
>I can store them for future due diligence on the part of a publisher
>or reuser or whatever.
>
Gee!  I would never have guessed that you liked handling paper so much. :-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi! :-)

body:
I received received it 3 times at about 06:26.  Once from the same
redgum46 that Sheldon mentions, once fro jwrosenzweig (to whom I have
not had the occasion to respond) and once from the wikien-l mailing
list.  It sounds as though our spoofers have been playing with the
mailing list.  I usually try to pull myself away from the computer so
that I can be in bed by 03:00 right after "Les chiffres et les lettres"
on TV5.

It's so shameful to see these terrible people trying to drive a wedge
between us. :-[

Ec

Anthere wrote:

> I received a personal curious email from Eclecticology...but the
> language was very much not like him at all...
> So, the virus ended in the trash.
> Ec, why are you always chosen ?
>
> ant
>
> Sheldon Rampton a rit:
>
>> FYI, the message below was an attempt to send a virus to the listserv:
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:26:12 -0500
>>> From: redgum46 at lycos.com
>>> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Hi! :-)
>>> To: WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>> Message-ID: <syjosdecffykveimgsb at lycos.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Argh, i don't like  the plaintext  :)
>>>
>>> ..btw,  "22061"  is a password for  archive
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>> Name: Attach.zip
>>> Type: application/octet-stream
>>> Size: 21033 bytes
>>> Desc: not available
>>> Url :
>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20040302/5b382a0e/Attach.obj
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Since the file attachment was scrubbed, no harm was done, but since
>> this virus is making the rounds I thought people would like to know.
>>
>> In all likelihood, this message was not sent from
>> <redgum46 at lycos.com>'s computer. This virus spoofs email addresses
>> that it finds in the address book of computers it infects.
>>
>> The specific virus that was sent is either "WORM_BAGLE.F" or a close
>> variant
>> called "WORM_BAGLE.G" (also known as "Win32.Bagle.F" or
>> "Win32.Bagle.G").
>> Technical information and instructions on how to deal with it can be
>> found
>> at the following URLs:
>>
>> http://www.norman.com/virus_info/w32_bagle_f_mm.shtml
>>
>> http://www3.ca.com/virusinfo/virus.aspx?ID=38444
>>
>> http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.asp?VName=WORM_BAGLE.F
>>
>>
>> --Sheldon Rampton
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: Trading with the Enemy

body:
Dan Drake wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:10:27 UTC, Ray Saintonge
><saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>>Those of us who are outside of the United States do not see the
>>President of the United States as the leader of the "free world"; we see
>>him only as the leader of those countries in the free world where the
>>majority voted for him.
>>
>Not to get political or anything, but Which are those?
>There's only one country where the majority could have voted for him, and
>it didn't.
>Where does that leave us?
>
Down a rabbit hole? :-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
Stan Shebs wrote:

> The comma-separated names like "Agualho, Cape", have one valuable
> property; they sort correctly in a list of all articles. This will be
> a key step in producing a print version, and it's not always possible
> to algorithmically determine the right sort key. (Meta-info could do
> this too, but it's not been implemented.)

The rule: "Wikipedia is not paper" has been very helpful for us as an
electronic encyclopedia.  For the paper product we may need to look at
alternate ways to present material that are more like the almanacs that
are produced each year than encyclopedias.  Our year pages alone could
fill 500 printed pages, and cannot be alphabetized.

Ec


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Yahoo has choosen Wikipedia for his non-commercial
	channel of CAP

body:
Yes, I was in negotiations with Yahoo about this last week.

We have a contract in which we supply them with an XML feed (which I
will have Jason construct) and they stick us in their index.  They
make no promises as to the placement of our urls, of course, as that's
entirely up to their editorial department.  But of course we have
absolutely maximum quality content, so it is thought by all that we
will rank very high in their index.

The area that this will benefit us most is when news breaks on some
topic about which there is little information on the net -- an area in
which we excel anyway.

I tried to get their PR person to feature us more prominently in the
press release, but alas, she didn't listen to me.  :-)

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: WikiGIS perhaps?

body:
Delirium wrote:
>  From that, I can't seem to figure out if the issue is an access one (we
> can't get the data) or a legal one (we're not allowed to use the data).
> If the latter, I think we can safely ignore it, at least in the US: a
> simple database of factual data is not copyrightable in the US, so once
> we can our hands on it, we can do whatever we want with it, regardless
> of what the person who put the data together says we can do with it.

I haven't looked deeper into this, but there is always contract law
that can cover holes in copyright law (you get raw data under an
agreement that you will pay damages if it gets disseminated).  If you
only speak English, you could start to dig out mapping data from
Britain or Ireland.  Many Europeans think "it cannot be done", and
need the inspiration from outsiders with a naive view of things.

Ordnance Survey Britain, http://www.ordsvy.gov.uk/
Ordnance Survey Ireland, http://www.osi.ie/

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Good news!

body:
This is nice, but I was thinking of a form to send to the person
granting permission, a form that they can fill out, with checkboxes
and what not, and a place for a signature.

Daniel Mayer wrote:

> Jimbo wrote:
> >You know what would be great?  If we had a standard
> >form for people to use.
>
> Ask and ye shall receive! Well, it was there before...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Confirmation_of_permission
>
> --mav
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Croatian "bureaucrat" request

body:
I don't like to "ssh" in to the database, especially when it's not the English database. So would Erik or Tim take care of this? (I don't think you have to wait a week...)
----
denny

Maybe this is the wrong place, but I'd like to ask for bureaucratship on the Croatian Wikipedia. The request on the inlwiki-l mailing list, it seems, have not been seen. I have made quite some edits on the English and German Wikipedia, I am here for months, I didn't get into any edit wars, and I have a long history of edits on the Croatian Wikipedia (the only Wikipedia I asked for adminship. It was granted immeadiatly then). I don't ask for bureaucratship because I want the power, but in order to achieve greater autonomy and independence for the Croatian Wikipedia. If this is the wrong place to ask, I kindly ask to be forgiven and to be told, where to ask actually, but I thought, only developers can make anyone a bureaucrat, and well, our developers are not seperated by language, so I can ask here as well (thinking, that the number of Croatian speaking developers is probably pretty small :). --denny vrande?i? 16:24, Feb 26, 2004 (UTC)

Support:

--Uncle Ed 18:26, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Denny is the heart and soul of the Croatian Wikipedia. -- Zmaj 07:23, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
--cprompt 16:57, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It doesn't make much sense not to do this :) --Shallot 02:30, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Tally: 4 support, 0 oppose -- ends 16:24, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
Hi.

Yesterday I did this little comparison that Jimmy Wales asked me to do,
to see how large our encyclopedia would be if we covered the same topics
as Columbia.

Among other things, the result revealed that about half of their article
titles do not have corresponding titles on Wikipedia.

My question is whether we want to do something about this (create
redirects). I would like to dump the huge list of article titles we
don't have onto some page in the Wikipedia namespace, and have our bulk
of volunteers work through them and create redirects to the relevant
pages, or mark some as "we *really* don't have something about this
topic" if applicable.

Would such an effort be warranted?

Timwi


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] some questions concerning "register_globals=on"

body:
On Mar 2, 2004, at 13:29, Marco Krohn wrote:
> Are there any plans to replace this code or can anyone who is more
> familiar
> with the code explain to me how much work it would need to change the
> code
> such that register_globals can be switched off?

It's planned to do so, but it's been a low priority and hasn't gotten
done yet. Every bit of code that uses information provided from the
URL, from a form, from the cookies, or from the session has to be
checked and fixed; then it all has to be tested to make sure that
subtle new bugs haven't been introduced.

It might be "easy" to make a workaround that would simply do what
register_globals = On does, but this hasn't got done yet (and wouldn't
really improve anything other than saving the trouble of changing the
PHP settings).

>  I assume that using the
> software with "register_gloabals=off" does not work at all, is that
> correct
> or would it only mean that some of wikimedias features are disabled?

At present it doesn't work at all with register_globals=off.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Top contributors

body:
I did some analysis of the top 50 contributors to Wikipedia.

After 4 months, they are contributing around 1,500 edits per month.
Then, with each succeeding month, they tend to contribute 50 FEWER edits
per month.

Data Source:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/TablesWikipediaEN.htm#wikipedians

Ed Poor


subject: [WikiEN-l] Main Page Poll

body:
I'm very confused.  There has apparently been a poll
at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_14#Straw_poll
for a little while that claims to be deciding whether
or not to keep the current main page.  Two MAJOR
problems.  One, the poll does not allow someone to
vote for the main page as it is right now (all options
are a week old), and it splits the vote so that there
are four different slightly altered types of new main
page (hence four possible places to cast a vote for
the new design), and one old main page (pooling all
the votes for the old main page in one place) -- this
means that the plurality of the vote right now is for
the old main page. Two, most of us had no idea the
vote was going on until now (and frankly, can't figure
out where to vote "I like what we have this very
moment).  Can anyone help me figure out what's going
on?

James Rosenzweig

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Tracy

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Possible Alliance/Partnership Between Sensasian and
	en.wikipedia.org

body:
Dear Webmaster,

We would like to explore a possible alliance/partnership with en.wikipedia.org.

www.sensasian.com is an online store focused on Asian entertainment products, namely music and movies - with a strong focus on Cantopop, Mandopop, J-pop, K-pop and Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese and Korean movies, animation and TV series. At this stage we have in excess of 10,000 products in our store which we constantly update. In addition we furnish viewers with value-added  services such as providing critical reviews, real audio samples (both audio and video (ie movie trailers) ) and delayed web casting of artists' interviews / press conferences. We also constantly run contests where registrants and purchasers have the opportunity of winning products and posters which are autographed by celebrities. We believe that this will be of additional interest to your viewership.

As our focus is on fans of popular Asian culture, of which vintage HK pop music is a large part of, we strongly believe that there exists a mutual benefit for us to work together. One way we could approach this cooperation is via co-branding on a sell through basis. Our site has an affiliate programme which tracks the sales which are generated by referrals from you and this may be monitored by you anytime from a remote location. The details can be worked out so that we may both experience a win win situation.

Our current partners include SCMP.com, Stareastnet.com and dianying.com among others.
Kindly let us have your views on this.

Sincerely

JY Tan (Tracy)
sensasian.com

E-mail : tracy at sensasian.com
Tel: +(603)2070-5557
Fax:+(603)2072-1919.

URL: http://www.sensasian.com - the store that offers Pure Asian Entertainment.
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Main Page Poll

body:
If people are going to run polls and then claim that the results can be
used to set policy -- then they really ought to give better publicity to
the polls.

I don't plan to abide by any poll that isn't announced on this mailing
list or in some other Very Prominent Place.

Democracy doesn't mean winning a vote, there's a lot more to it -- as
the recent unpleasantness in Haiti proves.

Uncle Ed


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
Timwi wrote:

>
> Hi.
>
> Yesterday I did this little comparison that Jimmy Wales asked me to
> do, to see how large our encyclopedia would be if we covered the same
> topics as Columbia.
>
> Among other things, the result revealed that about half of their
> article titles do not have corresponding titles on Wikipedia.
>
> My question is whether we want to do something about this (create
> redirects). I would like to dump the huge list of article titles we
> don't have onto some page in the Wikipedia namespace, and have our
> bulk of volunteers work through them and create redirects to the
> relevant pages, or mark some as "we *really* don't have something
> about this topic" if applicable.
>
> Would such an effort be warranted?
>
I once created a "list of encyclopedia topics", with ~100 000 entries
(collected from various sources), as about 30 pages, and all topics as
[[links]]. However, these pages were deactivated/removed, as displaying
them was very slow indeed.

I'm all for such a list with [[links]], but you'll probably have to
stretch them on a lot of pages (say, 100).

Magnus


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Columbia and Copyright

body:
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Michael Snow wrote:

> Martin Harper wrote:
>
> >>Auppose [the Wikipedia print edition] snagged the
> >>same 55,000 topics as Columbia?  How big would the resulting
> >>text be?
> >>
> >>
> >Wouldn't selecting the exact same 55,000 topics as Colombia be a possible
> >copyright infringement? Choosing an appropriate selection of topics for a
> >concise encyclopedia is a creative act...
> >
> It would indeed. In fact, it's probably one of the better openings we
> could provide for our natural rivals to sue us. Encyclopedia topic
> selection is definitely copyrightable. And given this kind of opening,
> if Columbia really wanted to take Wikipedia down, they could also
> recruit other parties with copyright claims and front the cost of the
> litigation. (For example, the various copyright owners of the images we
> included, if we haven't screened those properly.)
>
> I doubt choosing the exact same topics as Columbia is realistic,
> however. We have different naming conventions, and therefore quite a few
> of the topics would not coincide exactly.
>
I happened to stumbled across Timwi's work earlier, & examining one page
briefly, I noticed a lot of articles that appear to be in the Columbia
Encyclopedia but not in Wikipedia actually are, precisely due to naming
conventions. Once all of these false negatives are weeded out, I'd expect
the list to drop to at least half it's current size.

The only place that I suspect that the group behind the Columbia
Encyclopedia could claim that we "stole" from their editorial selection
would be concerning proper names from the Bible: in my 4th edition of this
work, one of their boasting points is that they have an entry for *every*
proper name in the Bible, a claim that seems to be accurate from a quick
check.

However, both because of our naming conventions & because I doubt
contributors have any reason to excert ourselvs to be as exhaustive, I
don't see a potential problem even here; & if it looks as if there is
one, then let's offer articles for all of the proper names for other
influential works of literature -- like Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides,
Shakespeare, Dickens & Tolstoy. (And a few other works that a contributor
might believe ought to be so treated.)

After all, we must keep in mind that there are only so many ways to
catagorize knowledge, & some duplication is inevitable. It's beleiveable
that all encyclopedias will have articles named "Africa", "Communism",
"Capitalism", and "Hemorrhoids".

Geoff


from_name: Jeff Meyer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Re: WikiGIS perhaps?

body:
This is kind of the direction that the GWHAT project is discussing.
(www.gwhat.org)

It should be possible to do a layer-based system that uses public domain
mapping information.

The GWHAT intent is then to overlay the background geographic data with
historical content targeted at K-12 to start.

It is also the intent to make this content Wiki-accessible/Wiki-fied.

"Ray Saintonge" <saintonge at telus.net> wrote in
message news:4044DDB0.7090201 at telus.net...
<snip>
> What this issue all comes down to is what do we want on a map and in how
> much detail.  Do we want an overlay system, and is it technically
feasible?
>
> A project to develop a totally wikifiable map system would be ideal.  My
> first approach would be to look at the possibility of creating a series
> of 1-degree-square maps for the entire world.  That's 360 x 180 =
>  64,800 maps (but with only 1/3 of these being for land areas)  If these
> are done as a series of overlays the reader should be able to choose
> which features he wants to include.
>
> I don't see copyright as a big problem unless we want to start insisting
> that we need to copy other wor.k that is already on the net.  The
> 1-degree squares are not in such a fine scale that it can't be created
> from public domain material.  Even if in the worst case we consider only
> the United States and Antarctica (for which the USGS has accepted
> mapping responsibility), that's a lot of work that will keep many people
> busy because of the large geographical expanse in these areas alone.
>
> Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Would such an effort be warranted?

Due to positive response, but concerns with the size, I will create such
a list in a broken-up fashion over the course of today.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent Changes broken?

body:
Hi,

I have just made four edits; rather, created four new pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Aakjaer%2C_Jeppe&action=history
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Aalto%2C_Alvar&action=history
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Abano%2C_Pietro_d%27&action=history
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Abbado%2C_Claudio&action=history

I'm creating these redirects as they are titles used in the Columbia
encyclopedia, and they have an obvious correspondence to a topic in the
English Wikipedia.

However, these four changes did not show up in Recent Changes, even with
hidebots=0. Nor did they show up in #enrc.wikipedia on IRC.

What's wrong with this? I really don't want to do this "in the secret",
as I would really rather some people notice these changes as they are
made, so mistakes are more likely to be caught.

Thanks,
Timwi


from_name: John C. Penta

subject: [WikiEN-l] Good news!

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au>
Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2004 3:42 pm
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Good news!

> On 03/02/04 20:08, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> > Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
> >> You know what would be great?  If we had a standard form for
> people to
> >> use.  You could mail to to this person by paper mail with a return
> >> address to the Wikimedia Foundation, and when the permissions
> come in,
> >> I can store them for future due diligence on the part of a
> publisher>> or reuser or whatever.
>
> > Gee!  I would never have guessed that you liked handling paper
> so much. :-)
>
>
> Want to put up scans too, in case Bomis burns down? (Not that I
> think it
> will. Er ...)
>
> A form letter usable outside the US would be most useful too, if
> anyonedoes one. Something sufficiently Berne Convention consistent.

I thought the US does implement the Berne Convention?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Columbia and Copyright

body:
Geoff Burling wrote:

>The only place that I suspect that the group behind the Columbia
>Encyclopedia could claim that we "stole" from their editorial selection
>would be concerning proper names from the Bible: in my 4th edition of this
>work, one of their boasting points is that they have an entry for *every*
>proper name in the Bible, a claim that seems to be accurate from a quick
>check.
>
Not at all.  In the summer of 2002 these were stolen from "Easton's
Bible Dictionary" which was published in 1897, and is therfore in the
public domain. :-)   Too bad!  Columbia's out of luck on this.

Ec


from_name: Evan Prodromou

in_reply_to:
<E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC2801FBB38B@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>
	(Edmund W. Poor's message of "Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:30:07 -0800")

body:
>>>>> "PEW" == Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> writes:

    PEW> Does the GNU Free Documentation License give everyone the
    PEW> right to stick a frame around the Wikipedia and rename it, as
    PEW> Sterling has done?

The GFDL gives people a right to use the Wikipedia content in almost
any way they want, as long as they follow a few guidelines.

That said, nobody has the right to misuse the wikipedia.org servers in
any way that's not acceptable to Wikimedia.

It'd probably be a good idea to write up a [[Wikipedia:Server use
policy]] to make it explicit what the policy is.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

body:
What about me request ?
Can you add a hook at the end of parsing process that other language can
make language specific parsing ?

Aoineko

> > > Never written article about programming ?
> >
> > Where would it ever matter to have a non-breaking space, which is
> > visually indistinguishable from an ordinary space?
>
> In French typography, a non-breaking space must be place before sign like
> [:] so that a line break (caused by display width fit) never occur between
> [:] and the preceding word. It's same for [;], [!], [?], [?] and [?]. And
> for numbers, each hundred must also be separated with non-breaking space.
> The simple way I see to do that is to write article with normal space
(0x13)
> then convert them (when necessary) to   before render the page. It
may
> be easily done after Wiki-syntax parsing by remplacing pair of characters
> (ex: [0x13][:] => [ ][:]).
>
> Aoineko


body:
Bryan Derksen wrote:

> At 07:40 AM 3/2/2004 -0800, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
>
>> Magnus,
>>
>> Please re-post your list, divided up into smaller pages, like:
>
> If you do, however, please exclude any links to already-existing
> articles.

I have excluded links to articles that exist in my local copy of the cur
dump - which is obviously not up to date, but I don't expect there to be
many new articles that are in the list. (Although right on the first
page, there is one: [[ADH]])

Timwi


from_name: David Friedland

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia featured in German weekly magazine

body:
Schneelocke wrote:

>>Unfortunately, there's no online version of the article available; I'll can
>>try to do a rough translation for meta in the next week if anyone's
>>interested, though.
>
>
> As a follow-up - as a couple of people were kind enough to point out,
> providing a translation of the article would likely be a violation of German
> copyright law. I'm not sure myself (IANAL), but I don't want to take any
> chances, so please consider my offer to be void.
>
> Darn, I really hate copyright (most of the time, at least).
>

I'm sure, however, that is is perfectly legal to give a
paragraph-by-paragraph summary, in English, of what the article says.

- David


subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia Encyclopedia titles

body:
I have re-assembled the list from wikipedia old versions (nearly DoSed
the server;-) but I won't have time to re-organize it soon.

I have, however, put it on the web as a single file:
    http://www.magnusmanske.de/List of encyclopedia topics.txt.bz2

About 0.5MB download.

Magnus

Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>Magnus,
>
>Please re-post your list, divided up into smaller pages, like:
>
>A
>B
>C
>...
>M to Mc
>Mc to Mz
>...
>XYZ
>
>Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


body:
It is now official! :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Columbia_Encyclopedia_article_titles

If you have a minute of spare time, please take a peek at some of the
links. If Wikipedia articles exist on some of the topics, create
redirects to them and remove them from the list.

If you are certain that a particular topic does not have a corresponding
Wikipedia article, it would probably make sense to mark them somehow -
perhaps move them to the bottom of the page into an extra section.

Thanks!
Timwi


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> "Allan Crossman" <a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>
>
>>Is there a way to prevent abominations like www.powerpedia.org, which
>>put Wikipedia in a frame with their own adverts?
>
>
> It is not allowed what they are doing.  Thus, it is a social problem,
> don't try to solve it with technical messures.

Technical measures are often effective to solve social problems. It's
easier than suing. You're better off locking your door than prosecuting
anyone who enters for trespassing.

>>While that particular site is probably not very important, I can see
>>this becoming more of an issue. Would it be possible for Wikipedia
>>pages to use that lovely bit of Javascript so common nowadays, which
>>automatically breaks out of frames?
>
>
> They can use a prefilter to through away this code, though.  Better
> tell them it is illegal what they are doing and ask them to stop
> stealing bandwidth.

If they have to filter the code then it wouldn't be an effective method
for stealing bandwidth, would it? It would just be a really inefficient
mirror.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Recent Changes broken?

body:
Timwi wrote:

> I have just made four edits; rather, created four new pages:
[...]
> However, these four changes did not show up in Recent Changes, even with
> hidebots=0. Nor did they show up in #enrc.wikipedia on IRC.

It turns out that a lot of things don't appear in #enrc.wikipedia.
However, my other edits from today did show up in Recent Changes, so
maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough, or it scrolled off the bottom
too quickly.

Timwi


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi! :-)

body:
I received a personal curious email from Eclecticology...but the
language was very much not like him at all...
So, the virus ended in the trash.
Ec, why are you always chosen ?

ant

Sheldon Rampton a ?crit:
> FYI, the message below was an attempt to send a virus to the listserv:
>
>> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:26:12 -0500
>> From: redgum46 at lycos.com
>> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Hi! :-)
>> To: WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> Message-ID: <syjosdecffykveimgsb at lycos.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Argh, i don't like  the plaintext  :)
>>
>> ..btw,  "22061"  is a password for  archive
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> Name: Attach.zip
>> Type: application/octet-stream
>> Size: 21033 bytes
>> Desc: not available
>> Url :
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20040302/5b382a0e/Attach.obj
>
>
> Since the file attachment was scrubbed, no harm was done, but since this
> virus is making the rounds I thought people would like to know.
>
> In all likelihood, this message was not sent from
> <redgum46 at lycos.com>'s computer. This
> virus spoofs email addresses that it finds in the address book of
> computers it infects.
>
> The specific virus that was sent is either "WORM_BAGLE.F" or a close variant
> called "WORM_BAGLE.G" (also known as "Win32.Bagle.F" or "Win32.Bagle.G").
> Technical information and instructions on how to deal with it can be found
> at the following URLs:
>
> http://www.norman.com/virus_info/w32_bagle_f_mm.shtml
>
> http://www3.ca.com/virusinfo/virus.aspx?ID=38444
>
> http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.asp?VName=WORM_BAGLE.F
>
> --Sheldon Rampton


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Columbia encyclopedia article titles

body:
The phone directories case (Feist v. Rural) is not relevant or helpful
to us here. The point there was that telephone listings involve purely a
compilation of factual information. The selection of encyclopedia
subjects does not--as we should know, it involves considerable editorial
judgment.

If we copy titles from Columbia or anywhere else, it's a bad idea.
Comparative advertising is a dubious defense, especially since right now
it sounds like we're using this much more for internal reference than
for outside advertising. Besides, like all fair use, it depends on the
factual situation, and part of the equation is the scope of copying
going on. Wholesale copying of article titles is not likely to be fair
use under any analysis.

Instead of avoiding copyright paranoia, why not just avoid copying,
especially so blatantly? We can do better working from our own content
than using somebody else as a base. From Jimbo's post, it appears that
he thinks it's a bad idea, too.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Schneelocke

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia featured in German weekly magazine

body:
> Unfortunately, there's no online version of the article available; I'll can
> try to do a rough translation for meta in the next week if anyone's
> interested, though.

As a follow-up - as a couple of people were kind enough to point out,
providing a translation of the article would likely be a violation of German
copyright law. I'm not sure myself (IANAL), but I don't want to take any
chances, so please consider my offer to be void.

Darn, I really hate copyright (most of the time, at least).

--
 6:59PM  up 28 days,  5:13, 2 users, load averages: 0.20, 0.17, 0.19

Every non-empty totally disconnected perfect compact metric space is
homeomorphic to the Cantor set.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: post-parser for language specific modification

body:
> Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
>
> > Timwi wrote:
> >
> >>Where would it ever matter to have a non-breaking space, which is
> >>visually indistinguishable from an ordinary space?
> >
> > In French typography, [...]
>
> I know all that. That's not what I asked.

Ok, let's try a better exemple.
(please look it with a proportional font)

'_' is non-breaking space.
' ' is normal space.
'|' is line break location.
Here is a text: 'Il dit : ? 10 000 fois bonjour ! ?'.

With "normal" space:

Il dit : ? 10| 000 fois bonjour| ! ?

may be displayed as:

| Il dit : ? 10     |
|  000 fois bonjour |
|  ! ?              |

...that is incorrect in French typography.
With non-breaking space:

Il dit_: ?_10|_000 fois bonjour|_!_?

may be displayed as:

| Il dit_:          |
| ?_10_000 fois     |
| bonjour_!_?       |

... that is correct.
Do you understand the problem ?

Aoineko


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

subject: [Wikipedia-l] WikiReader Athens

body:
Hi,
After the success of the German WikiReader Schweden
and the upcoming German WikiReader Internet (~140 pages DIN A5)
I thought that a WikiReader Athens would be a nice idea.

The summer olimpics start mid-August and the reader should be
done until late June/early July to have some time for printing
and distribution (yes I meant paper).

It would be great to have it in various languages, Greek WP
has less than 1000 articles so a WikiReader might give it
a little press echo.

I've already asked at el:MainPage and made an article on meta:
for interlingual coordination.
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiReader_Athens

I'm looking forward for your ideas and input. Thank you.

ciao, tom
--
http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
   -.-       http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
   /|>	           http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com
   / \                 http://tinyurl.com/u6de


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

body:
Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> writes:

> If they have to filter the code then it wouldn't be an effective method
> for stealing bandwidth, would it? It would just be a really inefficient
> mirror.

Yes, you are right.  Sorry.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Dan Drake

body:
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:10:27 UTC, Ray Saintonge
<saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> Those of us who are outside of the United States do not see the
> President of the United States as the leader of the "free world"; we see
> him only as the leader of those countries in the free world where the
> majority voted for him.

Not to get political or anything, but Which are those?
There's only one country where the majority could have voted for him, and
it didn't.
Where does that leave us?

--
Dan Drake
dd at dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com

Whoever tries to imagine perfection simply reveals his own emptiness.
 --George Orwell


body:
At my urging in IRC chat, this and the redirects from it are listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possible_copyright_infringements#March_2 .

A meaningful selection of a subset is copyrightable and the selection of articles to include in an encyclpedia is such a meaningful selection.

The company has a major financial incentive to take us to court bcause we are competitors. Our normal transformative use fair use argument doesn't exist because they are an encyclopedia and so are we, so fair use is far, far tougher to argue. We also lose our unwritten fifth fair use factor "are they good people?" positive result in this case.

They would take us to court and this is free ammunition forthem to use to do it. Whether they do it before a print edition or after, to do the greatest possible harm by requiring all copies to be recalled or destroyed, is not knowable by us.

We must not use the selection of articles made by another encyclopedia as a checklist for articles we want. If individual Wikipedians do so, that's their problem but we must not conspire with them to facilitate it.

It's not a problem to do things like noting that it's common for encyclopedias to use "lastname, firstname" form for names and add redirects of that sort for every individual we have in the Wikipedia. It's not a problem to note that encyclopedias often use the names of popes not preceded by the word pope and create redirects for that. But it is a problem if a large subset is selected and systematically worked on in this way. It's also a very big giveaway if they see lots of referrers from a Wikipedia page to their site.

It was a good and helpful thought Timwi, but it does lots of potential harm and shouldn't be done in this way. If you instead make a bot to create lastname, firstname redirects, that would be useful and not a problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: Timwi
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:01:07 +0000
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Columbia encyclopedia article titles

It is now official! :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Columbia_Encyclopedia_article_titles

If you have a minute of spare time, please take a peek at some of the
links. If Wikipedia articles exist on some of the topics, create
redirects to them and remove them from the list.

If you are certain that a particular topic does not have a corresponding
Wikipedia article, it would probably make sense to mark them somehow -
perhaps move them to the bottom of the page into an extra section.

Thanks!
Timwi

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Robert Michel

body:
Salve,

was this on action by Wikipedianers, or was this on action of yahoo without
contacting the Wikipedia foundation?

Greetings
rob

see:
> http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/
index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20040302005391&newsLang=en
--snipp--
March 02, 2004 08:20 AM US Eastern Timezone

 Yahoo! Search Launches New Content Acquisition Program, Providing More
Relevant, Comprehensive Online Content For Users

 SUNNYVALE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 2, 2004--

 Includes Relationships With NPR, The New York Public Library, National
Science Digital Library And More; Program Also Introduces Overture's New Site
Match Paid Inclusion Program, Giving Commercial Content Providers Direct Way
to Interact with Search Engines

 Yahoo! Inc. (Nasdaq:YHOO), a leading global Internet company, today announced
that Yahoo!(R) Search (http://search.yahoo.com) will be rolling out its new
Content Acquisition Program (CAP) this week as part of Yahoo! Search's
ongoing efforts to enhance search quality and comprehensiveness. CAP enables
non-commercial and commercial content providers to better interact with
Yahoo! Search Technology by directly providing their Web pages, which are
then added to Yahoo!'s search index and displayed in search results based on
their relevance to a search term.

Overture, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Yahoo!, has launched a new paid
inclusion program, called Site Match, as the commercial component of CAP.
Site Match allows commercial content providers to effectively submit Web
content, update it frequently, obtain additional targeted leads, and track
and optimize their performance.

"Our primary goal is to discover all the content on the Web for free. In
addition, the Content Acquisition Program serves to make a richer set of
content accessible to users in a way that most search engines today are
unable to achieve," said Tim Cadogan, vice president of Search at Yahoo! Inc.
"This program enables us to develop direct, structured relationships with
content providers to increase comprehensiveness, maintain the most up-to-date
data, improve relevance and thereby deliver a higher quality search
experience for users."

As part of the non-commercial channel of CAP, called Public Site Match, Yahoo!
Search is working with several content providers from government, academia
and other non-profit sectors to help improve search quality and expand the
breadth and depth of content users can access through search, including:

-- NPR (National Public Radio), an internationally acclaimed producer and
distributor of non-commercial news, talk and entertainment programming, will
provide access to the audio from its flagship news and information programs.

-- Northwestern University's online OYEZ project contains more than 2,000
hours of Supreme Court audio, including all audio recorded since 1995.

-- Library of Congress, the research arm of Congress, is the largest library
in the world with more than 128 million items, including 29 million books and
other print materials, 12 million photographs and 57 million manuscripts.

Additional CAP partners include The New York Public Library, one of the most
renowned libraries in the country; Project Gutenberg, the Web's oldest
producer of free electronic books; University of Michigan's OAIster project,
which provides hard to find academic collections; UCLA's Cuneiform Digital
Library Initiative (CDLI) with content documenting Babylonian history back to
3500 B.C.; Wikipedia, a free, multilingual online encyclopedia with articles
                ^^^^^^^^^^

in more than 50 languages; and the National Science Digital Library (NSDL),
the National Science Foundation's online library, with more than 250
collections that improve the way Americans learn about science, technology,
engineering, and mathematics. The OYEZ, CDLI and NSDL projects are all
federally funded in part or in whole by the National Science Foundation.

[...]


from_name: Jake Nelson

body:
user_Jamesday wrote:
> At my urging in IRC chat, this and the redirects from it are listed at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possible_copyright_infringements#Marc
h_2 .
>
> A meaningful selection of a subset is copyrightable and the selection of
articles to include in an encyclpedia is such a meaningful selection.

See the decision of the US Supreme Court in [[Feist v. Rural]], 1991.
(Thanks to Raul654 to pointing out our article on it) It's directly
connected to this.

It's worth noting that we're not even listing their entire set of titles-
only the difference between us and them. This could be considered
comparative advertising- see Sony v. Bleem (9th Circuit Court of Appeals,
2000) for a recent case in which fair use was upheld for what many called an
edge case.

Also, nearly all the redirects created are obvious- <lastname>, <firstname>
naming, different formulations of titles, transliteration of foreign
characters (a-ring to double-a, c-cedilla to c, accent marks, tildes), and
so forth. The more esoteric Biblical names, mentioned earlier, all come from
texts or translations that are within the public domain (typically via
Easton's). Moreover, the suggestion on the discussion page that we should
also delete all the redirects created as a result is ludicrous.

Based on all of these and a number of other factors (our nonprofit status
among them, but that's relatively minor), I'd say we're well within bounds.
[[meta:Avoid Copyright Paranoia]], people.

-- Jake

PS: IANAL. I miss Alex.


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Good news!

body:
On 03/02/04 20:08, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Jimmy Wales wrote:

>> You know what would be great?  If we had a standard form for people to
>> use.  You could mail to to this person by paper mail with a return
>> address to the Wikimedia Foundation, and when the permissions come in,
>> I can store them for future due diligence on the part of a publisher
>> or reuser or whatever.

> Gee!  I would never have guessed that you liked handling paper so much. :-)

Want to put up scans too, in case Bomis burns down? (Not that I think it
will. Er ...)

A form letter usable outside the US would be most useful too, if anyone
does one. Something sufficiently Berne Convention consistent.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi! :-)

body:
On 03/02/04 16:29, Sheldon Rampton wrote:

> In all likelihood, this message was not sent from <redgum46 at lycos.com>'s
> computer. This virus spoofs email addresses that it finds in the address
> book of computers it infects.
> The specific virus that was sent is either "WORM_BAGLE.F" or a close
> variant
> called "WORM_BAGLE.G" (also known as "Win32.Bagle.F" or "Win32.Bagle.G").
> Technical information and instructions on how to deal with it can be found
> at the following URLs:

Want to update [[Bagle worm]] ? :-)

- d.


body:
Salve,

Am Dienstag, 2. M?rz 2004 20:07 schrieb Robert Michel:
> was this on action by Wikipedianers, or was this on action of yahoo without
> contacting the Wikipedia foundation?

I want to add that is a good news *g*,
probably the beginning of finding many friends for wikipedia,
and the original yahoo press release is here:
http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/pr/release1144.html

Greetings
rob


from_name: Jens Frank

body:
On Tue, Mar 02, 2004 at 07:22:56PM +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
> Ok, let's try a better exemple.
> (please look it with a proportional font)
>
> '_' is non-breaking space.
> ' ' is normal space.
> '|' is line break location.
> Here is a text: 'Il dit : ? 10 000 fois bonjour ! ?'.
>
> With "normal" space:
>
> Il dit : ? 10| 000 fois bonjour| ! ?
>
> may be displayed as:
>
> | Il dit : ? 10     |
> |  000 fois bonjour |
> |  ! ?              |
>
> ...that is incorrect in French typography.
> With non-breaking space:
>
> Il dit_: ?_10|_000 fois bonjour|_!_?
>
> may be displayed as:
>
> | Il dit_:          |
> | ?_10_000 fois     |
> | bonjour_!_?       |
>
> ... that is correct.
> Do you understand the problem ?

Committed code change to CVS. Please test at
http://jeluf.mormo.org/testwiki/wiki.phtml?title=Bonjour

Regards,

	JeLuF


from_name: Marco Krohn

body:
Hi,

for a open source project I'm involved in we want to use the Wikimedia
software for our webpage and for documentation of our software. Yesterday I
received an email from a group member who volunteered to install wikimedia
software that wikimedia needs to have

register_globals=on

which seems to be a security risk according to
http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20021209/130049.html.

Are there any plans to replace this code or can anyone who is more familiar
with the code explain to me how much work it would need to change the code
such that register_globals can be switched off? I assume that using the
software with "register_gloabals=off" does not work at all, is that correct
or would it only mean that some of wikimedias features are disabled?

Thanks and best regards,
   Marco

--
Marco Krohn
Theoretical Physics
University of Hannover


subject: [WikiEN-l] Poll re: mailing lists and meta-discussion

body:
There's been a request to make mailing list readers aware of a poll
being conducted at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Mailing_lists#Poll:_a_better_place_for_discussions?

The purpose of the poll is explained below.

Seth Ilys wrote:

> A number of users have expressed major concerns about the way
> discussions occur and decisions are made and propegated with regard to
> the mailing lists (particuarly WikiEN-L). Presently, the mailing list
> is dominated by a handful of individuals and thoughtful back-and-forth
> discussion over extended periods of time is difficult (among other
> difficulties). Multiple users have complained that the mailing list
> volume is too high for them to reasonably keep up with. The current
> situation is clearly frustrating to many users, and clearly action is
> called for. However, there should be a home for the sorts of informal
> "meta-discussion" that takes place on the mailing list.
>
> This subject was recently brought up on WikiEN-L and was rapidly shot
> down; however, those who shot it down were those who frequent the
> mailing list, and I feel as if the community's voice has not been
> heard. Below I propose a number of potential solutions; feel free to
> add additional options...
>
> I personally suggest moving discussions to the online forums already
> set up at boards.wikimedia.org, because they offer the threading,
> viewing, and referencing capabilities that the Wiki is not capable of,
> but are open, fully transparent, and real-time on the web (accessible
> conveniently to all).

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