references:
<50745.80.195.239.113.1157634830.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<OHEOKBPIOKBGALOCIOHIKEPBFAAA.bastique@bellsouth.net>
	<d20d84ea0609132031h487de202j9f371fc1bc9366df@mail.gmail.com>
	<453b6e50609140612m7ac0e746lc4fbe907ac2bb37e@mail.gmail.com>
	<450955EA.7050001@gmail.com>

body:
On 9/14/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> We have taken it upon ourselves to produce content that is /as free as/
> /possible/ - which means that for the moment, we are bound to abide by
> the most restrictive law that could apply.
>
> Yes, it is silly. But only by respecting copyright law does copyleft
> work, so we are as much in favour of copyright protection as the free
> licensing of works.

Yes and no. I don't think we have to pick the most restrictive. I
think that we could probably agree on a relative level of
international freedom that would be acceptable to most -- i.e., free
under any country which is a party to the Berne convention, for
example, would not be an unreasonable determination, just to throw one
out there. That would include most of the major content producers and
consumers of the world, and is less arbitrary than saying "USA,
Germany, France, UK."

On the other hand, even within that determination there are some
questionable things, such as the really ridiculous notion in some
countries that any photograph which contains a picture of a
copyrighted building in it is copyrighted by the architect. This
strikes me as being copyright-out-of-control, where the rights of one
party are drastically respected while the rights over another are trod
upon. Since copyright terms have been expanded to ridiculous lengths
all around, it becomes a really depictable monopoly on culture. I
think if there are ways to resist some of these sorts of things
without being legally risky, we should consider them. In the US, for
example, photography of publicly accessible buildings is explicitly
allowed in US copyright law without being infringement. Wikimedia
servers could host such photos without fear of real legal reprisals,
even if a re-user in a country with a more ridiculous law would have
difficulties. We could make this very clear in the tagging so that
nobody would be accidentally put into a negative legal situation. Just
a thought and an example.

Copyleft uses the copyright system but it is always quite conscious of
the limits of the copyright system (the CC licenses make it very plain
that they don't intend at all to infringe upon fair use rights). The
copyright system is currently a travesty -- limited monopolies have
become virtually perpetual and the right of the producer has been held
as almost entirely dominant over the rights of the consumer (or
culture writ broadly). Copyleft is a way to strengthen these other
rights; it respects copyright law but does not enshrine it, and
especially not its excesses.

FF


list: commons-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Fastfission

subject: [Commons-l] Multi-Licensing on multiple projects

references:
<50745.80.195.239.113.1157634830.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<OHEOKBPIOKBGALOCIOHIKEPBFAAA.bastique@bellsouth.net>
	<d20d84ea0609132031h487de202j9f371fc1bc9366df@mail.gmail.com>
	<453b6e50609140612m7ac0e746lc4fbe907ac2bb37e@mail.gmail.com>
	<98dd099a0609140759r2aacf244o475cd896693e0283@mail.gmail.com>
	<d20d84ea0609140808r2529b79dxce8f6eee1b7f4d2@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 9/14/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 15/09/06, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure a large and free-form table is the best way to accomplish
> > this. I think it will confuse people. I think perhaps though that if
> > we agree on certain issues (say, the architecture one), we could make
> > specific templates relating just to those instances. They should be
> > relatively limited in scope.
>
> There do seem to be a small number of recurring issues in this regard:
> - public art
> - architecture (= derivative works? freedom of panorama?)
> (in some, maybe all, countries these are considered together?)
> -limits of PD-ineligible (notably, German logos)
> -privacy rights
> -possibly 'sweat of brow' vs 'mechanical copy'? (we are still
> inconsistent about this, with flags)
> -and if we're going to go down this route, many countries probably
> have laws about offensive/seditious material?

That's a pretty good list to start with. I think we should put off the
offensive/seditious material question for another day -- it's a very
big kettle of fish. The only exception to that is that there are US
laws regulating the need for publishers to maintain detailed records
about anyone appearing in sexual situations. I'm pretty sure Jimbo has
said in the past that he wasn't interested in trying to keep such
records; anyway it's an issue to think about since we do "publish" out
of the US.

It would be great if, for the sake of discussing it, we had a little
table that explained the international differences on the above
issues. I only know bits and pieces about a few of them. It might help
us clarify what the legal issue is, and from there we can also
probably think about the ethical issues (I'm inclined, for example, to
support privacy rights in any compromising photographs which are not
of "public figures," whether or not the law strictly requires it or
not).

FF


list: wikien-l

from_name: dmehkeri at swi.com

subject:
[WikiEN-l] 1 FA/day (re: 100,
	000 FAs as an achievable goal with a plan)

body:
> Isn't it more or less tuned so we get an average of one new Featured Article
> per day?

Isn't "getting my article on the main page" a motivator for FAC? 1 FA/day would
seem to follow of necessity.

Dan


list: foundation-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Process essay is almost essay-shaped now

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>Dear smart people,
>
>Please look over
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:David_Gerard/Process_essay and hack
>it to bits.
>
>
Interesting.  One point that could perhaps be made:  Process works best
when it protects the rights of minorities.

It's always good to remind those who work metaphorically to thwart the
"conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids," that
they are not Stanford Prison Guards.

Ec


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikitech-l

from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] bold and unordered lists in Creole 0.1

body:
On 14/09/06, Chuck Smith <chuckssmith at gmail.com> wrote:

>  we wish to make
> Creole as forgiving and user-friendly as possible, even if it means
> making parsers a bit more complicated.

Good to hear :-)

- d.


from_name: Nigel Miller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Comments on main pages

body:
We're using Mediawiki at our company, but one gripe with it is that the Talk
pages are separate. Ideally we would like to see a comments section at the
bottom of the actual pages - with an add comment button.  Nothing fancy just a
list of comments with the username and date in there.

Does anyone know of any extenstion that does this or have any idea how easy it
would be to write one?

Nigel


subject:
[Foundation-l] note to readers interested in Wikipedia/Wikimedia in
	the UK

body:
We have a UK-based mailing list, wikimediauk-l, for Wikimedia-related
topics concerning the UK. It was set up as a discussion list for the
prospective Wikimedia UK organisation. I often post UK-related article
discussion, media stuff, etc. to it.

There appear to be a lot of UK-based readers of these lists who aren't
on it and probably should be.

List page: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK

- d.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] note to readers interested in Wikipedia/Wikimedia in the
	UK


list: wikipedia-l

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] note to readers interested in Wikipedia/Wikimedia in
	the UK


from_name: Chuck Smith

body:
I appreciate all of the good feedback I've seen here about Creole 0.1.
 I have added a few clarifications to the Creole 0.1 spec:

Bold and Italics:
Bold and Italics should be able to embed in lists and one should be
able to make links bold and italic. Bold and/or italics can span
lines, but not span across lines in lists nor across different
paragraphs.

Lists:
Bold, italics, links, pre can be embedded in lists. Whitespace is
optional before and after the * or # character, however a space is
required afterwards if someone wishes to start a list element with
bold text. It is recommended to have support for a depth of at least
five levels.

About unordered lists and bold: a line starting with ** (including
optional whitespace before and afterwards), immediately following an
unordered list element a line above, will be treated as a nested
unordered list element. Otherwise it will be treated as the beginning
of bold text. Note that bold and/or italics cannot span lines in a
list.

-

To see the changes in context, please view:
http://www.wikicreole.org/wiki/Creole0.1

Again, we do not wish to require a space after a list element in
general, because many users forget to do this and we wish to make
Creole as forgiving and user-friendly as possible, even if it means
making parsers a bit more complicated.

Chuck


from_name: Brianna Laugher

body:
I dislike the idea of this because there is no 1-to-1 correspondence
between language and country. en.wp is the Wikipedia of choice for
most of the world. So which country's laws to adopt? Chinese, French,
Arabic.. many languages have this fact. Australia has some looser
copyright limits than the US for pre-1955 material, and it doesn't
seem right to restrict use of these by applying American laws to them.

I still think the principle of adopting the laws of the country of
origin (of the piece of work, not uploader) makes the most sense. I
see the German Wikipedia has a copy of the Australian Aboriginal flag,
despite its copyrighted status in Australia. This disturbs me to no
small extent - the statement of 'public domain' seems patently a
lie... so probably I also have to accept that 'simple' logos that
originate in Germany are indeed uncopyrightable.

Brianna

On 14/09/06, Cary Bass <bastique at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On  Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:14 AM, Alison Wheeler wrote:
>
> > I've put up an idea of what I meant as a status table at
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:AlisonW/Licensestatustest Obviously
> > a template solution would be used to get the countries and standard texts
> > inserted, but it might work and also provides us with a caveat for when
> > (rather than if!) images get used where they shouldn't be ...
> >
> > Alison Wheeler
>
> I encourage everyone to visit the example that Alison created and share
> their thoughts on this possible solution for multi-licensing.  Something
> like this may go some ways to solving some of our concerns.
>
> Cary Bass
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>


from_name: Adam Ross

subject: [Wikitech-l] Alternate Editor & Text Queries

body:
I've been poking around mediawiki for a couple months now.  I am working on
a project that has a lot of customization demands and am running into some
quicksand.  Any help or pointers would be appreciated.  I came here because
this all seemed to complicated for IRC...

1. Alternate Editor/New Editor/Editor Script/Editing Form
I need to set up a more restrictive editor as a linkable option to the usual
editor.  By more restrictive, I mean you essentially build the article with
text inputs and drop down menus.

I've found the showEditForm() function in EditPage.php and the FCKeditor
extensions, but am at a loss which way would be best.  Ideally I would just
create the form, feed it to a script which recombined all the values, and
sent it on into the regular editing/updating mechanism.

2. Text Queries/Query Content/Get Article Content from Database
Part of this project is to maintain a flatfile mirror of the articles in one
of the wiki namespaces.  This includes writing out files when they are moved
into the particular namespace.  I'm finding the db calls to be confusing.  I
have the article id & title, what am I looking for to get the article text?
This is being written as an extension.

~ grayside


from_name: Heimermann, Asher

subject: [Foundation-l] Alt-Wiki

body:
Hello,

  Does Wili have a back-up website if the other Wiki website goes down?

  Have A good day!

  Asher

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Everyone is raving about the  all-new Yahoo! Mail.


subject: [Foundation-l] Alt-Wiki


from_name: HeinzJ

subject:
[Wikitech-l] table text: rebuildMessages / additional rows / column
 'old_namespace' = 0

body:
Is this normal?

when running rebuildMessages on my 1.71 mediawiki i get additional rows
within table text with "old_namespace" values = 0

i run rebuildMessages this way:
php5 maintenance/rebuildMessages.php --update languages/Messages.php

HeinzJ


from_name: Ilia Alshanetsky

subject: [Wikitech-l] PHP 5.2.0RC4 testing

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello!

You are receiving this email because your project has been select to
take part in a new effort by the PHP QA Team to make sure that your
project still works with PHP versions to-be-released. With this we
hope to make sure that you are either aware of things that might
break, or to make sure we don't introduce any strange regressions.
With this effort we hope to build a better relation between the PHP
Team and the major projects.

If you do not want to receive these heads-up emails, please reply to
me personally and I will remove you from the list; but, we hope that
you want to actively help us making PHP a better and more stable tool.

The final release candidate of PHP 5.2.0 was released today, it can
be downloaded from http://downloads.php.net/ilia/. If you discover
any problems with this release please notify PHP's QA team at "php-
qa at lists.php.net".

In case you think that other projects should also receive this kinds
of emails, please let me know privately, and I will add them to the
list of projects to contact.

Best Regards,

Ilia Alshanetsky
5.2 Release Master

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=L04u
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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] table text: rebuildMessages / additional rows /
 column 'old_namespace' = 0

body:
HeinzJ wrote:
> Is this normal?
>
> when running rebuildMessages on my 1.71 mediawiki i get additional rows
> within table text with "old_namespace" values = 0

Your database was upgraded from 1.4 and still has the leftover fields from the
'old' table in 'text'. They're harmless. If you really want, you can rebuild the
table manually in SQL to the new schema to trim the extra fields.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: Delphine Ménard

body:
On 9/14/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
> I dislike the idea of this because there is no 1-to-1 correspondence
> between language and country. en.wp is the Wikipedia of choice for
> most of the world. So which country's laws to adopt? Chinese, French,
> Arabic.. many languages have this fact. Australia has some looser
> copyright limits than the US for pre-1955 material, and it doesn't
> seem right to restrict use of these by applying American laws to them.

While I understand your concern...

> I still think the principle of adopting the laws of the country of
> origin (of the piece of work, not uploader) makes the most sense.

...what do you mean by "country of origin of the piece of work"?

I'm French, I take a picture in Germany of anAmerican work of art
that's public domain in the US but not in Germany. Which law applies?

/me is lost.

Delphine
--
~notafish


references:
<50745.80.195.239.113.1157634830.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<OHEOKBPIOKBGALOCIOHIKEPBFAAA.bastique@bellsouth.net>
	<d20d84ea0609132031h487de202j9f371fc1bc9366df@mail.gmail.com>
	<48953.80.195.239.113.1158225083.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com>

body:
On 9/14/06, Alison Wheeler <wikimedia at alisonwheeler.com> wrote:
> On Thu, September 14, 2006 04:31, Brianna Laugher wrote:
> > I dislike the idea of this because there is no 1-to-1 correspondence
> > between language and country. en.wp is the Wikipedia of choice for
> > most of the world.
>
> Just to clarify, that is *exactly* the reason I put up the 'status' test
> page; I was listing jurisdictions against copyright status, not language.

I like the idea. Just some of the examples, even fake, are really
badly chosen. *winks* You can't put a work under PD in France for
example.

>
> Whilst we can utilise the law in the uploader's location, or in the USA,
> to determine some things it is absolutely clear that we cannot rely on
> either of those two locations to give us carte blanche to use that image
> everywhere in the world; a jurisdictional approach will be the only way,
> moreso for content re-users than for WMF projects directly.

I believe unfortunately that both USA law and law of the country of
the uploader need to be obeserved. My take in the end though, is that
until we've had to defend ourselves to the end on real issues and a
court somewhere has ruled what law applies, we will just be debating
to no avail.

Delphine
--
~notafish


body:
THXs brion

> Your database was upgraded from 1.4 and still has the leftover fields from the

i upgraded from MediaWiki 1.5.3

> 'old' table in 'text'. They're harmless. If you really want, you can rebuild the

So i could delete all colums except these ones?:
old_id
old_text_
old_flags

> table manually in SQL to the new schema to trim the extra fields.

i supposed i have to..

danke, heinzJ


from_name: Ligulem

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikilinked dates in ISO-format and anon users

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> IIRC, the default is simply not to mess with the text, which is always the most
> sensible thing.

I see. Seems we have to stick then with the current level of messing
with dates ;-)

Marking dates with <date> (or something) wouldn't be bad, IMHO.

Something like <date>2006-09-14</date> would be fine. Displayed as
   "14 September, 2006" on en
   "14. September 2006" on de
with selectable overrides per logged-in user.

I agree that scanning wikitext for text that looks like dates might
technically not be the best solution.

Also, having a date linked in order to get date display magic is against
orthogonality of choices.

But I admit, I don't know the history behind the current date handling
logic.

--Ligulem


from_name: Tels

references:
<ee8j29$lsv$1@sea.gmane.org> <45080D9F.8000701@pobox.com>
	<eebmfo$t74$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Moin,

On Thursday 14 September 2006 15:46, Ligulem wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
> > IIRC, the default is simply not to mess with the text, which is always
> > the most sensible thing.
>
> I see. Seems we have to stick then with the current level of messing
> with dates ;-)
>
> Marking dates with <date> (or something) wouldn't be bad, IMHO.
>
> Something like <date>2006-09-14</date> would be fine. Displayed as
>    "14 September, 2006" on en
>    "14. September 2006" on de
> with selectable overrides per logged-in user.
>
> I agree that scanning wikitext for text that looks like dates might
> technically not be the best solution.
>
> Also, having a date linked in order to get date display magic is against
> orthogonality of choices.

But if you mark them with date<2006-09-14> or the more wiki like {{date|
d=2006-09-14}} (or your <date></date>, but wikitext was the reason why I
stopped writing HTML in the first place), then they could be automatically
linked, too :)

Best wishes,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Thu Sep 14 16:36:23 2006 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "My glasses, my glasses. I cannot see without my glasses." - "My
 glasses, my glasses. I cannot be seen without my glasses."

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subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:100%2C000_feature-quality_articles

[[WP:100K]]

100,000 feature-quality articles by 2007.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
On 14/09/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:100%2C000_feature-quality_articles
> [[WP:100K]]
> 100,000 feature-quality articles by 2007.

by *end* of 2007.

(So much for striking minimalist announcements.)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
On 14/09/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:100%2C000_feature-quality_articles
> > [[WP:100K]]
> > 100,000 feature-quality articles by 2007.

> ... what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Danny%27s_contest
> ([[WP:DC]])?

ARGH. I just emailed him asking if a page existed for this as yet and
he said no!

Ah well. Merger anyone?

- d.


subject: [Commons-l] WANTED: Bots and software-adapters

body:
Hello,

some technical requests:

Experienced bot operators required! Bots are needed for automatic
archiving of at least the following:
* COM:VP
* COM:HD
* COM:AN (eventually)
* COM:DEL

It has been mentioned a couple of times that something like the
AutoWikiBrowser would be very useful for the Commons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser  By some
measures, we are the third largest Wikimedia project over all (
http://s23.org/wikistats/wikimedias_html.php?sort=total_desc ), so you
know, it could help a lot of people. :) [well, if you sort by #images,
we're #1... :D]
So anyway, the moral of the story is, go and help patch up AWB to become an ACB.

cheers
Brianna
user:pfctdayelise


body:
Dear smart people,

Please look over
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:David_Gerard/Process_essay and hack
it to bits.

(Please forward to other smart people.)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Process essay is almost essay-shaped now


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Process essay is almost essay-shaped now


body:
Tels wrote:
> But if you mark them with date<2006-09-14> or the more wiki like {{date|
> d=2006-09-14}} (or your <date></date>, but wikitext was the reason why I
> stopped writing HTML in the first place), then they could be automatically
> linked, too :)

date<2006-09-14> is rather un-xml-ish.

I wouldn't oppose to wikilinking all dates. But there are Wikipedians
that want to be able to chose per each single date instance if it should
be linked or not. I think the argument was "not to overlink" and some
felt that a huge amount of incoming links to pages like [[2005]] are
pointless (I don't care about either of these issues). But the [[..]]
syntax rightfully suggests that we can *choose* to link or not to link
on everything. Why not on dates exhibiting date display magic? Currently
these *must* be wikilinked in order to get that popular date preferences
magic. Which seems odd to me. Non-orthogonal.

My problem is, that this whole linking/not linking, date preferences
working/not working issue is a matter of constant debate, also on
templates like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_web. And in
that debate the anon users have no voice.

Packaging dates into template calls like {{date|d=2006-09-14}} doesn't
solve the underlying problem we have with dates. Such a template would
be simply ignored by Wikipedians IMHO, because it serves no purpose.
Also, on en the name is already taken ;-)

--Ligulem


from_name: Simetrical

subject: [Wikitech-l] Category intersection

body:
On 9/14/06, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> The reason we think the SQL is too inefficient is because there can be
> large numbers of articles in one category. If we store all intersections
> of two categories, which is easy to do and doesn't take much space at
> all, then each intersection will likely be small enough to make the SQL
> for three-way intersections economical, so higher-order intersections
> need not be stored directly.

Well, then, is anyone up for writing and benchmarking this idea?  :)

> Besides, I think you're all forgetting that if we have a table that
> stores, say, all two-way category intersections, we can actually get rid
> of the categorylinks table itself -- it would be contained within that
> new table and would be wholly redundant. Similarly, a table with all
> three-way intersections contains in it all two-way intersections as well.

Yeah, but then surely you'd have to take the union of a potentially
large number of tables to display a single-category view, which I
suspect is going to remain a more common request than a
category-intersection view.  Isn't that going to give you a
substantial performance hit for large categories?

(And incidentally, pages that are only in a single category will have
to remain in their own table.  You can't get that from intersection
tables.)

> Lastly, you're also forgetting that the size of the table is irrelevant
> as long as the hardware to store it is available.

Not quite irrelevant.  It becomes more expensive to move it around,
download it, and so on.  A factor of 1.5 or 2, who cares, but a factor
of five or ten could be sort of inconvenient.

More to the point: if you're maintaining many tables in parallel like
this, you need that many more DB calls.  If I add a category to a page
with a dozen categories, it will need to update the dozen intersection
tables instead of one categorylinks table.  That's why I suggested
only maintaining some of the most commonly-requested intersection
tables, rather than all of them; there's a tradeoff here between time
for reads and writes.  Benchmarking is needed to know which side to
lean toward more.


from_name: Anthony

subject:
[WikiEN-l] 100,
	000 FAs as an achievable goal with a plan (was Contest and quality)

body:
On 9/13/06, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Then the next layer of recognition is our trusty Good Articles, which
> at the moment are not quite working as anticipated (1400 articles?).
> We throw this open. Nominally, anyone can nominate and anyone can
> approve a GA; we want to emphasise this fact. Get projects to do it.
> Have ad-hoc committees do it. Have one editor mark some articles as
> candidates, then go to another and say "Can you look over this list
> and see what you agree with?". Bingo, much more throughput, much more
> chance of a good article being recognised as such.
>
One other way to make this more open is to encourage people to just go
through lists of random articles (or hit "random page") and assign
*all* of them to some class.  I play the "random page" game from time
to time, just hit random page a few times, correct some stuff, add
some references, add {{fact}} or {{unsourced}}, fight with vandal
patrollers who just automatically revert any major change by someone
who isn't logged in, etc.  I'd be willing to add some sort of
class-tagging to the talk page too, though I'd be more willing if it
were easier (is there a {{GA-nominee tag}}?).

Anthony


subject: [WikiEN-l] Grandmother copyrighted anonymous works

body:
On 9/12/06, Richard Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not responding specifically to Zero, but in general...
> It seems to me that thinking about creative input isn't going to be useful
> here either. Imagine if the kind stranger happens to be a professional
> photographer, and "takes charge" to arrange the subjects of the photo, and
> perhaps even takes two steps to the left so as to include a very dramatic
> lighting effect. The pro then hands to camera back to the owner and walks
> away.
>
Obviously the stranger would have at least *some* copyright interest
in that case, then.

I'd say that's more likely to be a rare corner case, though.  And the
point I was making, at least, is that the person who presses the
button doesn't *necessarily* have any copyright interest in the photo.
 Obviously they *sometimes* do.  In my opinion, although this part is
debatable, *most* of the time when you hand someone a camera and tell
them to take a picture of something for you the copyright in the
resulting work is jointly held between you and the actual
picture-taker.

> This is not work for hire; it's not any sort of contract arrangement. It's
> just a kind pro giving away services. I'm not any sort of lawyer, but it
> sure seems to be that, in handing the camera back to the owner and walking
> away, the photo-taker is almost literally handing away any rights to the
> photo.
>
>From a practical standpoint, this is certainly true.  From a legal
standpoint this is much less clear.

For most purposes, the answer is "who cares".  But as a project
dedicated to producing a free work, I think you have to care at least
a little.  Of course, depending on the details sometimes I think even
a project dedicated to producing a free work has to sometimes admit
that the chances of someone actually suing over such a work are so
small as to render the entire exercise of determining the true
copyright owner pointless.

Anthony


from_name: Rory Stolzenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
Am I the only one who thinks this is absolutely impossible?  I'm thinking
2,500, and even that's ambitious.  Per WP:100K, each FA requires 50
editing-hours- that's 5,000,000 editing-hours for 100,000 FAs. Dividing that
by 8760 hours in a year, that's over 570 editors working 24/7/365.  More
realistically, we'd have editors working on average maybe 2 hours a day at
most, so multiply that number by 12. That's 6840 editors working 2 hours a
day, 7 days a week for a year, solely on articles that they will make
featured.

2,500 FAs would require only 125,000 hours, when dividing by the hours in a
year it works out to be a bit over 14 editors working 24/7/365 and 168
working 2/7/365 only on creating FAs.

On 9/14/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 14/09/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Surely they can co-exist. It could only lead to more featured articles.
> > Danny's contest is focussed on referencing specific articles. If we want
> to
> > reach 100,000 we need a lot more than the ones he listed.
>
>
> I've mentioned WP:DC on WP:100K, and should probably mention it the
> other way too.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: effe iets anders

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Conference Netherlands 2006

body:
Hello all,

Although it is already some time ago that the Wikimedia Conferentie
Nederland (WCN) was held in Utrecht, Netherlands, I would like to give
a short overview of the conference. The conference was mostly in Dutch
language, for a Dutch-speaking public of Wikians and was orginized on
september 2nd 2006 in conference center Regardez La Vie in Utrecht,
Netherlands and was very much sponsored by Kennisnet, the Dutch
organization that has as goal to use the possibilities of ICT in the
Dutch education as much as possible, that also sponsors the servers in
Amsterdam and that is stimulating the use of wiki's in the Dutch
education.
About 45 people attended to the conference, exclusive press etc, of
which we had three people who were present for a smaller or larger
period. In total there were two planary and twelve smaller sessions,
of which two workshops, two/three discussions and further some very
interesting presentations with the subjets Easy Timeline, Wikibooks,
Wikidata, References on Wikipedia, Conventions on Wikipedia,
Constructive collaboration, pywikipediabot, vandalfighting, scalable
vector graphics, Wikimedia 201 and last but not least some insights
from Wikimedia Deutschland by Kurt Jansson, their president.
The conference was for the whole afternoon, and directly afterwards
there was a well visited dinner for interested people.
Contacts were made, people met other Wikians for the first time, and
discovered that the others were not as bad as online, leart things
from and to each other and most important to me, were able to
enthousiast each other even further, so cooporation was made better. I
can advise others to orginize this kind of local conferences as well
in the future, although it might be wiser to keep some more time
between Wikimania and the local conference. I am working on writing
down what went wrong, what should have a lot of attention, what to
thing of when orginizing this kind of things etc. Hopefully others can
learn of our errors and almost-errors :-) and will it be easier next
time. (I hope there will be!)

Greetings from the Netherlands,

Lodewijk Gelauff, co-orginizer of the WCN


from_name: Neil Harris

references:
<ee8j29$lsv$1@sea.gmane.org>	<45080D9F.8000701@pobox.com>	<eebmfo$t74$1@sea.gmane.org>	<200609141637.53928@bloodgate.com>
	<eebtcs$q1p$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Ligulem wrote:
> Tels wrote:
>
>> But if you mark them with date<2006-09-14> or the more wiki like {{date|
>> d=2006-09-14}} (or your <date></date>, but wikitext was the reason why I
>> stopped writing HTML in the first place), then they could be automatically
>> linked, too :)
>>

{{date|2006-09-14}} is surely the wiki-way to go: it can then expand to
<date>2006-09-14</date> for the parser/renderer back end to deal with.

-- Neil


from_name: Aerik Sylvan

subject: [Wikitech-l] Category Intersections

body:
  Simetrical and Timwi wrote:
> > Besides, I think you're all forgetting that if we have a table that
> > stores, say, all two-way category intersections, we can actually get rid
> > of the categorylinks table itself -- it would be contained within that
> > new table and would be wholly redundant. Similarly, a table with all
> > three-way intersections contains in it all two-way intersections as well.
>
> Yeah, but then surely you'd have to take the union of a potentially
> large number of tables to display a single-category view, which I
> suspect is going to remain a more common request than a
> category-intersection view.  Isn't that going to give you a
> substantial performance hit for large categories?
>
> (And incidentally, pages that are only in a single category will have
> to remain in their own table.  You can't get that from intersection
> tables.)
>
Whoa - intersection "tables"?  Why more than one?  You lost me.  Also,
I figured you could get higher order intersections from lower ones,
but how do you go the other way?  And, I second the question about the
performance hit, even if you can.

I was picturing adding the intersections to the existing table - like
this, suppose you have an article in "Living people", "People from
Maine", "American horror writers" - it would also get the category
intersections of "Living people ~ People from Maine", "People from
Maine ~ American horror writers", etc.  You would not need "American
horror writers ~ People from Maine" because it is the same
intersection.  So I can see how you could intersect "Living people"
and  "People from Maine ~ American horror writers" and get the
intersection of all three - but you would still need to store "Living
people ~ People from Maine" AND "People from Maine ~ American horror
writers" - it doesn't save you from having to store every combination
of 2 categories.

The plus side is this lets you calculate the intersection of 4
categories dynamically, or any 3, or any 2, with only storing the a
binomial coefficient (n choose k, where n is the number of categories
and k=2) additional records, and the retrieval of articles at the
intersection of only two categories will be fast.  The logic for what
to retrievee and store gets a little convoluted, but not too bad... is
the performance improvement worth it?

I don't know enough about SQL to talk intelligently about the speed of
retrieving one record in two thousand vs. two million, but I agree,
some testing is called for here.  If someone can point me where I can
download the categorylinks table (*only* preferably) I'll get it and
throw some sql at it.  It'll take me a couple of days to get around
to.

Best Regards,
Aerik


from_name: ikiroid

subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
It's so hard to write FAs though....and 100,000 means about 10% of all
existing articles. Many existing articles are redirects, disambigs, lists,
etc. and others don't have enough info on the topic to be featured. I don't
like being someone's fantasy nazi, but it seems extremely difficult, if not
impossible. It would be more logical to aim for 10,000, or even 5,000 FAs.


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

body:
On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 12:47:49PM +0200, Chuck Smith wrote:
> Lists:
> Bold, italics, links, pre can be embedded in lists. Whitespace is
> optional before and after the * or # character, however a space is
> required afterwards if someone wishes to start a list element with
> bold text. It is recommended to have support for a depth of at least
> five levels.
>
> About unordered lists and bold: a line starting with ** (including
> optional whitespace before and afterwards), immediately following an
> unordered list element a line above, will be treated as a nested
> unordered list element. Otherwise it will be treated as the beginning
> of bold text. Note that bold and/or italics cannot span lines in a
> list.

Those implementations will, IMO, prove to be too difficlut for users to
model mentally.  If I were you, I'd *require* a space after bullet
markers, as I suggested in another thread; it will be a much safer
disambiguation method.

Your *number one* concern -- if you're really starting from scratch --
is "what can users figure out by looking, unambiguously, without
reading the cheat-sheet".  That overrides any concerns of "how hard is
it to code?".

IMO.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	"That's women for you; you divorce them, and 10 years later,
	  they stop having sex with you."  -- Jennifer Crusie; _Fast_Women_


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
Surely they can co-exist. It could only lead to more featured articles.
Danny's contest is focussed on referencing specific articles. If we want to
reach 100,000 we need a lot more than the ones he listed.

Mgm

On 9/14/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 14/09/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> > David Gerard wrote:
>
> > >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:100%2C000_feature-quality_articles
> > > [[WP:100K]]
> > > 100,000 feature-quality articles by 2007.
>
> > ... what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Danny%27s_contest
> > ([[WP:DC]])?
>
>
> ARGH. I just emailed him asking if a page existed for this as yet and
> he said no!
>
> Ah well. Merger anyone?
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 14/09/06, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:

> >Please look over
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:David_Gerard/Process_essay and hack
> >it to bits.

> Interesting.  One point that could perhaps be made:  Process works best
> when it protects the rights of minorities.

What are some examples on Wikipedia?

> It's always good to remind those who work metaphorically to thwart the
> "conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids," that
> they are not Stanford Prison Guards.

Phrasing it that way is unlikely to get through to anyone behaving
that way - they are of as good faith and dedication to the project as
you or I, even if they're obviously complete idiots.

But then, they think we're complete idiots. Call this the Assumption
of Symmetrical Stupidity. (I'll see if [[:en:WP:AGF]] would benefit
from a refactor, and put that in there if it would.)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
On 14/09/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:

> Surely they can co-exist. It could only lead to more featured articles.
> Danny's contest is focussed on referencing specific articles. If we want to
> reach 100,000 we need a lot more than the ones he listed.

I've mentioned WP:DC on WP:100K, and should probably mention it the
other way too.

- d.


from_name: ROSC Director

subject: [Foundation-l] Wiki Spam

body:
All Wiki Members,

  Please share your thoughts on Wiki Spam, Wiki Spamers, and just Spam. The Resources of Sheboygan Club is working on a plan to stop Spam on our forums, guestbooks, and forms.

  Please share your thoughts on this issue as this will help the Resources of sheboygan Club and some ideas will be pasted on.

  Please send feedback or thoughts to ROSCDirector at gmail.com

  Yours Truly,
      The Resources of Sheboygan Club
       Club Director & Founder

---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.


subject: [Foundation-l] Wiki Spam


body:
Ligulem wrote:
> Marking dates with <date> (or something) wouldn't be bad, IMHO.
>
> Something like <date>2006-09-14</date> would be fine. Displayed as
>    "14 September, 2006" on en
>    "14. September 2006" on de
> with selectable overrides per logged-in user.

I've added this to http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4582

I wonder if this <date> tag could be implemented as an extension...

--Ligulem


body:
On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 10:33:42AM +1000, Nick Jenkins wrote:
> > About unordered lists and bold: a line starting with ** (including
> > optional whitespace before and afterwards), immediately following an
> > unordered list element a line above, will be treated as a nested
> > unordered list element. Otherwise it will be treated as the beginning
> > of bold text.
>
> So if I'm understanding correctly, this means that:
> ======================
> ** two
> *** three
> ======================
>
> Will render as:
> "
 two * three
"
>
> Not:
> "

two

three

"
>
> (as MediaWiki currently does) ?

See?  See??  ;-)

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	"That's women for you; you divorce them, and 10 years later,
	  they stop having sex with you."  -- Jennifer Crusie; _Fast_Women_


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Category intersection

body:
>>So you can see that the number of combinations would get to be quite a lot.
>>I would propose writing them into the categorylinks table
>
> Wait, write an *exponential* number of combinations into the
> categorylinks table?

I don't think any more than the square is actually necessary, and if
not, at most the cube.

The reason we think the SQL is too inefficient is because there can be
large numbers of articles in one category. If we store all intersections
of two categories, which is easy to do and doesn't take much space at
all, then each intersection will likely be small enough to make the SQL
for three-way intersections economical, so higher-order intersections
need not be stored directly.

Besides, I think you're all forgetting that if we have a table that
stores, say, all two-way category intersections, we can actually get rid
of the categorylinks table itself -- it would be contained within that
new table and would be wholly redundant. Similarly, a table with all
three-way intersections contains in it all two-way intersections as well.

Lastly, you're also forgetting that the size of the table is irrelevant
as long as the hardware to store it is available. The processing power
required to access such a large table is NOT, as is commonly assumed,
proportional to the size of the table! This is what databases have
indexes for, and it is my understanding that in modern RDBMSs, the time
taken to access a record in the table is not directly correlated to the
size of the table at all (only to the size of the index, but even then
not proportionally).

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] draft of WikiCreole 0.1 available for comment

body:
David Gerard wrote:
>
> I think you are completely and utterly wrong on this.

I think you didn't really read my posting properly, and you only posted
this for the sake of appearing cleverer or having the last word.

As Jay already mentioned, we are actually agreeing with each other. I
never said absolutely anything that would suggest that the wiki engine
would "just spit back "INVALID CONTENT"". If you had thought about what
you wrote instead of just blasting it out into the mailing list, you
would have realised that browsers also don't "just spit back "INVALID
CONTENT"", but this doesn't mean any conceivable sequence of characters
is valid HTML.

Timwi


references:
<171116790609120146o2f798538kab67b387f89c23a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<NABBJGECPILFNLFEAPIKMENOINAA.nickpj@gmail.com>
	<ee6n5m$8bs$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<fbad4e140609120944j4ba1fa90xc002f99d56ad512f@mail.gmail.com>
	<eecfuo$1c0$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 14/09/06, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:

> > I think you are completely and utterly wrong on this.

> I think you didn't really read my posting properly, and you only posted
> this for the sake of appearing cleverer or having the last word.
> As Jay already mentioned, we are actually agreeing with each other. I
> never said absolutely anything that would suggest that the wiki engine
> would "just spit back "INVALID CONTENT"". If you had thought about what
> you wrote instead of just blasting it out into the mailing list, you
> would have realised that browsers also don't "just spit back "INVALID
> CONTENT"", but this doesn't mean any conceivable sequence of characters
> is valid HTML.

Evidently so, and my apologies if I offended.

- d.


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [Commons-l] Multi-Licensing on multiple projects

references:
<50745.80.195.239.113.1157634830.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<OHEOKBPIOKBGALOCIOHIKEPBFAAA.bastique@bellsouth.net>
	<d20d84ea0609132031h487de202j9f371fc1bc9366df@mail.gmail.com>
	<453b6e50609140612m7ac0e746lc4fbe907ac2bb37e@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Delphine M?nard wrote:
> On 9/14/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I dislike the idea of this because there is no 1-to-1 correspondence
>> between language and country. en.wp is the Wikipedia of choice for
>> most of the world. So which country's laws to adopt? Chinese, French,
>> Arabic.. many languages have this fact. Australia has some looser
>> copyright limits than the US for pre-1955 material, and it doesn't
>> seem right to restrict use of these by applying American laws to them.
>
> While I understand your concern...
>
>> I still think the principle of adopting the laws of the country of
>> origin (of the piece of work, not uploader) makes the most sense.
>
> ...what do you mean by "country of origin of the piece of work"?
>
> I'm French, I take a picture in Germany of anAmerican work of art
> that's public domain in the US but not in Germany. Which law applies?
>
> /me is lost.
>

Copyright law is stupid. Intellectual property law is stupid. Trademarks
law is stupid. None of these laws have caught up to technology yet.

We have taken it upon ourselves to produce content that is /as free as/
/possible/ - which means that for the moment, we are bound to abide by
the most restrictive law that could apply.

Yes, it is silly. But only by respecting copyright law does copyleft
work, so we are as much in favour of copyright protection as the free
licensing of works.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Ars Technica on the WSJ debate

body:
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?a=dl&s=50009562&f=174096756&x_id=1158104709&x_subject=Britannica+versus+Wikipedia+heads+to+the+WSJ&x_link=http://arstechnica.com&x_ddp=Y

You'll see the usual opinions in there, expressed reasonably articulately.

Now, today's challenge: How would you answer the clearly (to you)
erroneous opinions without saying or expressing "you're wrong"?
Especially when they are. Your mission is to *convince* otherwise.

- d.


from_name: Jon Harald Søby

subject: [Foundation-l] Alt-Wiki

body:
On 9/14/06, Heimermann, Asher <resourcesofsheboygan at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
>   Does Wili have a back-up website if the other Wiki website goes down?
>
>   Have A good day!
>
>
>
>   Asher
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Everyone is raving about the  all-new Yahoo! Mail.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

There are several websites which mirror content from Wikipedia and its
sister projects; most prominent is probably answers.com, which also
mirrors several other sites.

--
Best regards,
Jon Harald S?by

Website - http://www.alqualonde.com/
Wikipedia - http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker:Jhs
MSN messenger - jhsoby at gmail.com
Skype - jon.harald.soby


subject: [Foundation-l] Alt-Wiki


subject: [Wikitech-l] Category Intersections

body:
On 9/14/06, Aerik Sylvan <aerik at thesylvans.com> wrote:
> Whoa - intersection "tables"?  Why more than one?  You lost me.

Okay: a table.

> Also,
> I figured you could get higher order intersections from lower ones,
> but how do you go the other way?

Assume you have a table of all two-category intersections.  If you
want to get a list of articles containing A, take the union of all
intersections of A with any other category.  That will only omit
articles whose only category is A.

> If someone can point me where I can
> download the categorylinks table (*only* preferably) I'll get it and
> throw some sql at it.  It'll take me a couple of days to get around
> to.

You want http://download.wikimedia.org/enwiki/20060911/enwiki-20060911-categorylinks.sql.gz
(108 MB gzipped).  download.wikimedia.org for all your data dump
needs.  :)


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject:
[Commons-l] Village Pump thread on possible feature for increased
	localization of commons content.

body:
I have created a simple hack which allows dynamic localization of
content on commons. I envision it being used for boilerplate notices.
I have put a demo online.  This feature could easily be extended to
support anons, and may help make commons a more friendly place for
non-english speakers.

Please see my post on the Village Pump:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Multiple_language_support.


subject: [Wikitech-l] link on a part of a word

body:
On 9/14/06, Fran?ois Patte <francois.patte at math-info.univ-paris5.fr> wrote:
> I try to put a link on a part of a compound word, but the result is that
> the ling takes one more syllable ie:
>
> [[Bija]]ganita
>
> In the resulting page the link is on part Bijaga not only on Bija. Why?
> And how this behaviour can be corrected.
>
> Note: i tried to put the link on "Bi" only, but the result is the same...

It's a shortcut of sorts.  For instance, if I write "Lots of people
use [[car]]s nowadays", it's kind of ugly if the "s" isn't
highlighted.  People largely expect links to be whole words, not parts
of words.  [[Bija]]ganita should therefore be equivalent to
[[Bija|Bijaganita]].

If you would like to suppress the effect for a given link, use
[[Bija]]<nowiki>ganita</nowiki>.


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-09-15

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Template with thumb image (with link in description)... FAILED!
Running test Template infinite loop... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML Hex character encoding.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!

Passed 412 of 429 tests (96.04%) FAILED!


from_name: Minh Nguyen

subject: [Wikitech-l] link on a part of a word

body:
Fran?ois Patte wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bonjour,
>
> I try to put a link on a part of a compound word, but the result is that
> the ling takes one more syllable ie:
>
> [[Bija]]ganita
>
> In the resulting page the link is on part Bijaga not only on Bija. Why?
> And how this behaviour can be corrected.
>
> Note: i tried to put the link on "Bi" only, but the result is the same...
>
> Thanks
> - --
> Fran?ois Patte
> UFR de math?matiques et informatique
> Universit? Paris 5 - Paris
> http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte

If you're an administrator at the wiki your using, and you'd like to
turn off this feature throughout the wiki, you can customize
[[MediaWiki:Linktrail]], which contains a regular expression of trailing
characters that should be automatically linked.

--
Minh Nguyen <mxn at zoomtown.com>
AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: mxn at myjabber.net; Blog: http://mxn.f2o.org/


from_name: Brianna Laugher

references:
<50745.80.195.239.113.1157634830.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<OHEOKBPIOKBGALOCIOHIKEPBFAAA.bastique@bellsouth.net>
	<d20d84ea0609132031h487de202j9f371fc1bc9366df@mail.gmail.com>
	<453b6e50609140612m7ac0e746lc4fbe907ac2bb37e@mail.gmail.com>
	<98dd099a0609140759r2aacf244o475cd896693e0283@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 15/09/06, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure a large and free-form table is the best way to accomplish
> this. I think it will confuse people. I think perhaps though that if
> we agree on certain issues (say, the architecture one), we could make
> specific templates relating just to those instances. They should be
> relatively limited in scope.

There do seem to be a small number of recurring issues in this regard:
- public art
- architecture (= derivative works? freedom of panorama?)
(in some, maybe all, countries these are considered together?)
-limits of PD-ineligible (notably, German logos)
-privacy rights
-possibly 'sweat of brow' vs 'mechanical copy'? (we are still
inconsistent about this, with flags)
-and if we're going to go down this route, many countries probably
have laws about offensive/seditious material?

Brianna


subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:100%2C000_feature-quality_articles
>
> [[WP:100K]]
>
> 100,000 feature-quality articles by 2007.
>

... what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Danny%27s_contest
([[WP:DC]])?

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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from_name: Husky

body:
Don't forget that we also had a group discussion with everyone attending
after the last workshop. The two points that came out as the main focus
points for the next year were probably the quality of the articles and how
we are going to manage copyright on images (as far as i can remember, i
should have written things down :). I also really appreciated that everyone
had the opportunity to say something after the main discussion was over (we
just passed a microphone to everyone in the audience). A simple and
effective way to get everyone involved and make them feel connected to the
project.

-- Hay Kranen ([[User:Husky]]) (Dutch WCN member)

On 9/14/06, effe iets anders <effeietsanders at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Although it is already some time ago that the Wikimedia Conferentie
> Nederland (WCN) was held in Utrecht, Netherlands, I would like to give
> a short overview of the conference. The conference was mostly in Dutch
> language, for a Dutch-speaking public of Wikians and was orginized on
> september 2nd 2006 in conference center Regardez La Vie in Utrecht,
> Netherlands and was very much sponsored by Kennisnet, the Dutch
> organization that has as goal to use the possibilities of ICT in the
> Dutch education as much as possible, that also sponsors the servers in
> Amsterdam and that is stimulating the use of wiki's in the Dutch
> education.
> About 45 people attended to the conference, exclusive press etc, of
> which we had three people who were present for a smaller or larger
> period. In total there were two planary and twelve smaller sessions,
> of which two workshops, two/three discussions and further some very
> interesting presentations with the subjets Easy Timeline, Wikibooks,
> Wikidata, References on Wikipedia, Conventions on Wikipedia,
> Constructive collaboration, pywikipediabot, vandalfighting, scalable
> vector graphics, Wikimedia 201 and last but not least some insights
> from Wikimedia Deutschland by Kurt Jansson, their president.
> The conference was for the whole afternoon, and directly afterwards
> there was a well visited dinner for interested people.
> Contacts were made, people met other Wikians for the first time, and
> discovered that the others were not as bad as online, leart things
> from and to each other and most important to me, were able to
> enthousiast each other even further, so cooporation was made better. I
> can advise others to orginize this kind of local conferences as well
> in the future, although it might be wiser to keep some more time
> between Wikimania and the local conference. I am working on writing
> down what went wrong, what should have a lot of attention, what to
> thing of when orginizing this kind of things etc. Hopefully others can
> learn of our errors and almost-errors :-) and will it be easier next
> time. (I hope there will be!)
>
> Greetings from the Netherlands,
>
> Lodewijk Gelauff, co-orginizer of the WCN
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Tels

references:
<ee8j29$lsv$1@sea.gmane.org> <eebmfo$t74$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<eec8rq$6s7$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Moin,

On Thursday 14 September 2006 21:00, Ligulem wrote:
> Ligulem wrote:
> > Marking dates with <date> (or something) wouldn't be bad, IMHO.
> >
> > Something like <date>2006-09-14</date> would be fine. Displayed as
> >    "14 September, 2006" on en
> >    "14. September 2006" on de
> > with selectable overrides per logged-in user.
>
> I've added this to http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4582
>
> I wonder if this <date> tag could be implemented as an extension...

That would be easy and done before breakfast, if I wasnt currently on
holiday...

best wishes,

tels

- --
 Signed on Fri Sep 15 01:39:44 2006 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "The flow chart is a most thoroughly oversold piece of program
 documentation." -- Frederick Brooks, 'The Mythical Man Month'

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from_name: James Hare

subject: [Foundation-l] sep11.wikipedia.org locked

body:
\o/

Be cool about fire safety.

On 9/15/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Due to longstanding concerns about lack of activity and abuse by spammers
> and
> vandals, I've switched sep11.wikipedia.org to read-only so it can no
> longer be
> edited.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] link on a part of a word

body:
2006/9/15, Fran?ois Patte <francois.patte at math-info.univ-paris5.fr>:
> > People largely expect links to be whole words, not parts
> > of words.
>
> In that case the automatic correction done by wiki is strange: why only
> one or two syllables? and not to the end of the word?
>
> Is it because, in fact, the "n", in ganita part, is not a latin "n", but
> a letter with a diacritical mark (underdot)?

Yes. It gets all that has been defined as a letter in the settings.
You can change that in [[MediaWiki:Linktrail]] (if you are a sysop).
The standard setting is:

/^([a-z]+)(.*)$/sD

If there are other characters than a to z that can occur in words in
your language, you can add them before or after the 'a-z'. For
example, Dutch uses the setting:

/^([??????????a-z]+)(.*)$/sD

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


from_name: François Patte

subject: [Wikitech-l] link on a part of a word

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bonjour,

I try to put a link on a part of a compound word, but the result is that
the ling takes one more syllable ie:

[[Bija]]ganita

In the resulting page the link is on part Bijaga not only on Bija. Why?
And how this behaviour can be corrected.

Note: i tried to put the link on "Bi" only, but the result is the same...

Thanks
- --
Fran?ois Patte
UFR de math?matiques et informatique
Universit? Paris 5 - Paris
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
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subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
On 9/15/06, ikiroid <ikiroid at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's so hard to write FAs though....and 100,000 means about 10% of all
> existing articles. Many existing articles are redirects, disambigs, lists,
> etc. and others don't have enough info on the topic to be featured. I
> don't
> like being someone's fantasy nazi, but it seems extremely difficult, if
> not
> impossible. It would be more logical to aim for 10,000, or even 5,000 FAs.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

I totally agree it's hard, but I'm sure the article count excluded stubs and
redirects.
Anyway, there's nothing wrong with aiming high, but aiming just a little
lower may get more pessimistic people into gear.

Mgm


from_name: Ligulem

body:
Nick Jenkins wrote:
> If it was going to be done as an extension, usage of it would probably look something like:
> <date day=2006-09-14 />

At least, I would say <date day="2006-09-14"/> to be compatible with
current standards.

And I have some doubts that <date day="2006-09-14"/> would be better
accepted by Wikipedians than <date>2006-09-14</date>. If you do a char
count, both are equal, but your variant requires an equal sign, which
smacks more of "programming" (generally disliked by a strong subset of
Wikipedians). But this is just a sub-aspect, so for me I don't care that
much.

--Ligulem


references:
<ee8j29$lsv$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<eebmfo$t74$1@sea.gmane.org>	<eec8rq$6s7$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<200609150140.23507@bloodgate.com>

body:
Tels wrote:
> On Thursday 14 September 2006 21:00, Ligulem wrote:
>> Ligulem wrote:
>>> Marking dates with <date> (or something) wouldn't be bad, IMHO.
>>>
>>> Something like <date>2006-09-14</date> would be fine. Displayed as
>>>    "14 September, 2006" on en
>>>    "14. September 2006" on de
>>> with selectable overrides per logged-in user.
>> I've added this to http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4582
>>
>> I wonder if this <date> tag could be implemented as an extension...
>
> That would be easy and done before breakfast, if I wasnt currently on
> holiday...

Cool! So at least it wouldn't be complicated to do - I'm looking forward
to the end of your holiday ;-)

I was mostly concerned about the dependency on the "default wiki date
display format setting" (I assume this is already configurable
somewhere) with all the myriads of date display formats, and the "user
preferences" part of a possible implementation.

Maybe I will give it a try as first MediaWiki hacking learning
experience for a dumb client app programmer like I am (C++, Windows).
Although, I doubt the quality of my concoction would be acceptable for a
installation like Wikipedia ;-)

--Ligulem


from_name: Nick Jenkins

body:
> I wonder if this <date> tag could be implemented as an extension...

If it was going to be done as an extension, usage of it would probably look something like:
<date day=2006-09-14 />

All the best,
Nick.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman

body:
I'm shutting down the mailing list server briefly to back up and upgrade. Should
be running Mailman 2.1.9 within an hour.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject: [Wikitech-l] bold and unordered lists in Creole 0.1

body:
> About unordered lists and bold: a line starting with ** (including
> optional whitespace before and afterwards), immediately following an
> unordered list element a line above, will be treated as a nested
> unordered list element. Otherwise it will be treated as the beginning
> of bold text.

So if I'm understanding correctly, this means that:
======================
** two
*** three
======================

Will render as:
"
 two * three
"

Not:
"

two

three

"

(as MediaWiki currently does) ?

All the best,
Nick.


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
On 15/09/06, Akash Mehta <draicone at gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, I always assumed that the number of articles template
> included absolutely every article, including vandalism CSD articles
> and stubs.

"Number of articles" does indeed include every article, which is
defined as everything in the main namespace *except* for redirects and
pages which have no internal links (ie, completely unwikified
material)

It does count disambiguation pages and stubs, though I get the
impression that the first one of these is more by chance than design.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject: [Wikitech-l] link on a part of a word

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Simetrical a ?crit :
> On 9/14/06, Fran?ois Patte <francois.patte at math-info.univ-paris5.fr> wrote:
>
>>I try to put a link on a part of a compound word, but the result is that
>>the ling takes one more syllable ie:
>>
>>[[Bija]]ganita
>>
>>In the resulting page the link is on part Bijaga not only on Bija. Why?
>>And how this behaviour can be corrected.
>>
>>Note: i tried to put the link on "Bi" only, but the result is the same...
>
>
> It's a shortcut of sorts.  For instance, if I write "Lots of people
> use [[car]]s nowadays", it's kind of ugly if the "s" isn't
> highlighted.

Your example seems (to me) irrelevant: of course nobody wants such a
link: [[car]]s; but I explained that it was a compound word and you may
want to explain one part of the compound: [[now]]adays (BTW, I don't
know what this "a" between now and days stand for!).

> People largely expect links to be whole words, not parts
> of words.

In that case the automatic correction done by wiki is strange: why only
one or two syllables? and not to the end of the word?

Is it because, in fact, the "n", in ganita part, is not a latin "n", but
a letter with a diacritical mark (underdot)? Are wiki's rules fully
compliant with utf-8 encoding?

>
> If you would like to suppress the effect for a given link, use
> [[Bija]]<nowiki>ganita</nowiki>.

I'll use this. Thanks.
- --
Fran?ois Patte
UFR de math?matiques et informatique
Universit? Paris 5 - Paris
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
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from_name: Chuck Smith

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikitech-l Digest, Vol 38, Issue 28

body:
> So if I'm understanding correctly, this means that:
> ======================
> ** two
> *** three
> ======================
>
> Will render as:
> "
 two * three
"
>
> Not:
> "

two

three

"
>
> (as MediaWiki currently does) ?

I would say it would render as:

 two

* three

We do however only **recommend** HTML.  We give freedom to the wiki
developer to decide which HTML s/he wishes to use as output.

Chuck


subject: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> I'm shutting down the mailing list server briefly to back up and upgrade. Should
> be running Mailman 2.1.9 within an hour.

Done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

body:
On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 11:14:36AM +0200, Chuck Smith wrote:
> > So if I'm understanding correctly, this means that:
> > ======================
> > ** two
> > *** three
> > ======================
> >
> > Will render as:
> > "
 two * three
"
> >
> > Not:
> > "

two

three

"
> >
> > (as MediaWiki currently does) ?
>
> I would say it would render as:
>
>

>  two

> * three
>

>
> We do however only **recommend** HTML.  We give freedom to the wiki
> developer to decide which HTML s/he wishes to use as output.

To be perfectly clear, Chuck, he was only using the HTML to *illustrate
semantics*.  His question was almost certainly concerning those
underlying semantics themselves, not that illustrative syntax.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	"That's women for you; you divorce them, and 10 years later,
	  they stop having sex with you."  -- Jennifer Crusie; _Fast_Women_


body:
Due to longstanding concerns about lack of activity and abuse by spammers and
vandals, I've switched sep11.wikipedia.org to read-only so it can no longer be
edited.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Create new article - module ?

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>On 15/09/06, Thomas <thomas at klassisk.dk> wrote:
>
>
>>To create a new article in the standard installation I have to create a link
>>first. Then click on the link to write the article.
>>I search for a module that enable unexperienced users to create an article
>>with one click (maybe in the menu)
>>
>>
>See the front page of a Wikinews edition, e.g. http://en.wikinews.org/
>- you'll see a box which anyone can type a title into and press a
>button to create the article. This uses the <inputbox> extension - not
>sure if this is part of the standard MediaWiki distribution.
>
I've for a long time considered the need to create a link as a feature.
It prevents having orphan articles.

Ec


from_name: effe iets anders

body:
Hmmm, maybe it would be an idea to clean the website up then? (clear
some templates like stub, protected etc is most easily)

Greetz, Effeietsanders

2006/9/15, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com>:
> \o/
>
> Be cool about fire safety.
>
> On 9/15/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > Due to longstanding concerns about lack of activity and abuse by spammers
> > and
> > vandals, I've switched sep11.wikipedia.org to read-only so it can no
> > longer be
> > edited.
> >
> > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
Grmbl, ignore my last post, confused by seeing links going from and to
wikipedia :-s

2006/9/15, effe iets anders <effeietsanders at gmail.com>:
> Hmmm, maybe it would be an idea to clean the website up then? (clear
> some templates like stub, protected etc is most easily)
>
> Greetz, Effeietsanders
>
> 2006/9/15, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com>:
> > \o/
> >
> > Be cool about fire safety.
> >
> > On 9/15/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Due to longstanding concerns about lack of activity and abuse by spammers
> > > and
> > > vandals, I've switched sep11.wikipedia.org to read-only so it can no
> > > longer be
> > > edited.
> > >
> > > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>


from_name: jkelly at fas.harvard.edu

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Example of a user who should have been banned a long
	time ago

body:
  Aksaha,

> > OrphanBot's top-50 list.  The "tagbot.log" warnings are about new
> > uploads; the "orphanbot.log" warnings are about existing uploads.

Quoting Akash Mehta <draicone at gmail.com>:
> Thats certainly a very useful list. Should we get a sysop to run
> through them?

  I note that there are sysops on that list of worst image offenders, so being a
sysop is probably not a good way to judge who should take action on the issue.

                   Jkelly


from_name: Rotem Liss

subject: [Wikitech-l] link on a part of a word

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Andre Engels wrote:
> You can change that in [[MediaWiki:Linktrail]] (if you are a sysop).

I think that users can no longer change it in [[MediaWiki:Linktrail]], and they
have to set $linktrail in the language file instead.

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from_name: Akash Mehta

subject:
[WikiEN-l] 1 FA/day (re: 100,
	000 FAs as an achievable goal with a plan)

body:
I say we aim for 10 good articles a day.

On 9/15/06, dmehkeri at swi.com <dmehkeri at swi.com> wrote:
>
> > Isn't it more or less tuned so we get an average of one new Featured Article
> > per day?
>
>
> Isn't "getting my article on the main page" a motivator for FAC? 1 FA/day would
> seem to follow of necessity.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Simetrical

subject: [Wikitech-l] link on a part of a word

body:
On 9/15/06, Fran?ois Patte <francois.patte at math-info.univ-paris5.fr> wrote:
> Your example seems (to me) irrelevant: of course nobody wants such a
> link: [[car]]s; but I explained that it was a compound word and you may
> want to explain one part of the compound: [[now]]adays (BTW, I don't
> know what this "a" between now and days stand for!).

Hmm, I can see where this would be annoying in languages with more
compound words than English has, and of course it wouldn't be useful
in languages with fewer affixes.  Thankfully, there's a way for such
languages to turn this behavior off in the language files (see next
response).

> Is it because, in fact, the "n", in ganita part, is not a latin "n", but
> a letter with a diacritical mark (underdot)? Are wiki's rules fully
> compliant with utf-8 encoding?

Yes, but yes.  A list of characters is maintained per-language to
consider "word letters", something which of course is different for
each language.  Thus, "[[car]]s." will extend to the s but not the
period, and "[[lightning]]-rod" won't encompass "-rod".  If the
language you're using doesn't have that character, please file a bug
at http://bugs.wikimedia.org/ stating the language and exactly what
characters that language considers letters.

Alternatively, you can suggest that the feature should be disabled for
the language (in the same place), but in that case it would probably
be a good idea to hold a poll on one of the Wikimedia projects for the
appropriate language, or a similar place (this will affect all
MediaWiki wikis using this language as their default).

As an aside: why don't we maintain a list of word-characters, namely
all Unicode word-character blocks, and allow each language to add to
or remove from it as necessary?  Would that be too slow?  To begin
with, currently the behavior is broken on Commons, Meta, etc. for
non-English languages; while maybe this can't be avoided entirely
(probably some languages will want to include something like ! or what
have you), it can be much reduced if the default were something
sensible for as many languages as is possible without conflict.

On 9/15/06, Rotem Liss <rotemliss_net at fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Andre Engels wrote:
> > You can change that in [[MediaWiki:Linktrail]] (if you are a sysop).
>
> I think that users can no longer change it in [[MediaWiki:Linktrail]], and they
> have to set $linktrail in the language file instead.

I believe this is correct.


body:
On 9/15/06, Chuck Smith <chuckssmith at gmail.com> wrote:
> We do however only **recommend** HTML.  We give freedom to the wiki
> developer to decide which HTML s/he wishes to use as output.

Which makes your code not really portable, which substantially works
against the purpose of creating such a syntax in the first place.
This is pretty basic behavior; it's not like we're talking some corner
case that will come up once in ten thousand cases.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Squid cache purging problem

body:
There seems to be something awry with the UDP multicast system we use for
purging updated pages from the squid caches. This can cause pages and images
which to not update properly for non-logged-in visitors.

Hopefully we can get this sorted out this evening; it's probably related to
recent rearrangements of our network infrastructure in Florida.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] 100K challenge page up

body:
Actually, I always assumed that the number of articles template
included absolutely every article, including vandalism CSD articles
and stubs.

On 9/15/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/15/06, ikiroid <ikiroid at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > It's so hard to write FAs though....and 100,000 means about 10% of all
> > existing articles. Many existing articles are redirects, disambigs, lists,
> > etc. and others don't have enough info on the topic to be featured. I
> > don't
> > like being someone's fantasy nazi, but it seems extremely difficult, if
> > not
> > impossible. It would be more logical to aim for 10,000, or even 5,000 FAs.
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> I totally agree it's hard, but I'm sure the article count excluded stubs and
> redirects.
> Anyway, there's nothing wrong with aiming high, but aiming just a little
> lower may get more pessimistic people into gear.
>
> Mgm
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Minimum standards for verifiability

body:
As far as I know, verifiability is one of the most important things. No poll
should be allowed to abolish it. Ideally, all unverifiable garbage should be
removed from articles, but it should be kept in mind that sources -may be-
available.

On 9/15/06, Christoph Seydl <Christoph.Seydl at students.jku.at> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> there is a discussion on verifiability in the German-speaking Wikipedia.
> There are discussions how freely the German Wikipedia may design its
> policy on verifiability.
>
> * Are there any rules (minimum requirements) how verifiability should be
> designed in different Wikipedias?
> * Must there be a source for every included material (e.g. a basket is a
> cylindric vessel)?
> * Is it enough that only disputed material must be sourced?
> * May a poll abolish the requirement of verifiability?
>
> I hope, you can help
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 15/09/06, Thomas <thomas at klassisk.dk> wrote:

> To create a new article in the standard installation I have to create a link
> first. Then click on the link to write the article.
> I search for a module that enable unexperienced users to create an article
> with one click (maybe in the menu)

See the front page of a Wikinews edition, e.g. http://en.wikinews.org/
- you'll see a box which anyone can type a title into and press a
button to create the article. This uses the <inputbox> extension - not
sure if this is part of the standard MediaWiki distribution.

- d.


body:
On 15/09/06, Thomas <thomas at klassisk.dk> wrote:
> From: "David Gerard" <dgerard at gmail.com>

> > See the front page of a Wikinews edition, e.g. http://en.wikinews.org/
> > - you'll see a box which anyone can type a title into and press a
> > button to create the article. This uses the <inputbox> extension - not
> > sure if this is part of the standard MediaWiki distribution.

> This is exactly what Im looking for.
> In the source I just see this
> {{Start an article}}
> How do I make this function on my site ?

I'm not sure, but I'm sure mediawiki-l will know!

(cc'd to mediawiki-l)

- d.


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] I've Kicked the Process Habit

body:
[[Wikipedia:Policy trifecta]] makes it sound so easy...

So I figured why not try it? After all, I've been here for two and a
half years. I've got a pretty good idea of what we're doing here. Why
not just stop worrying about what all the policy pages say today, and
about what the process to list something on AfD is?

So I'm not anymore. I understand [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:DICK]], and I
especially understand [[WP:IAR]]. I understand what an encyclopedia
is. I understand how to do good research. (I'm a professional
academic - I teach people how to do good research. I know this stuff.)

So as of today, I'm just going to go ahead and edit. Lord knows the
rules are making me nervous and depressed. So I'll follow all the
stuff I can remember, and not try too hard to learn the other stuff.
If I can't remember how to list something for AfD today, I'll just
use PROD. If I can't get it deleted via PROD, I just won't delete it.
Someone who remembers how to use AfD can do it. If I can't remember
how many warnings a vandal gets, I'll just zap 'em for 24 hours two
warnings early, and call it a day. If I can't remember the status of
blogs and personal websites as they apply to a specific topic, well,
I'm a professional researcher. I teach people how to research. I'll
trust my judgment.

Note that this means that if you cite a policy page to me and expect
me to carefully divine the meaning of section 14, paragraph 3, clause
2 of it, odds are I'll just say "Yeah, but what's ''wrong'' with what
I'm doing?" "It violates policy" isn't enough. If it's against
policy, it must be bad for some reason, so just explain to me what it
does that's bad.

Otherwise... well, you might drive me off the page, but you sure
ain't gonna convince me.

In the meantime, I'll be keeping [[User:Phil Sandifer/Process blog]]
updated with anything I run into that's just impossible to handle
without checking lots of policy pages. I'm doing this not so much
because I'm trying to find the essential policies as because I'm
trying to find the broken ones. I figure anything so complex an admin
who's been editing for two and a half years can't do it is
fundamentally broken.

Not that I'll be the one to fix it. I've got an encyclopedia to write.

-Phil


body:
On Sep 15, 2006, at 8:35 PM, geni wrote:

>
> Then I must request that you resign your adminship.
>

Request denied. HTH. HAND.

-Phil


from_name: Thomas

body:
To create a new article in the standard installation I have to create a link
first. Then click on the link to write the article.

I search for a module that enable unexperienced users to create an article
with one click (maybe in the menu)


body:
On Sep 15, 2006, at 8:59 PM, David Gerard wrote:

> On 16/09/06, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> PS. Also remember to cite stuff, that policy isn't one you can
>> just skip
>
>
> The core policies (NPOV, NOR and V on the content side; AGF and NPA on
> the community side, and I'd add BITE to the community list since the
> numbers seem to say newbies write most of the actual encyclopedia)
> aren't negotiable. Everything else is process, even if it's accepted
> enough to tag policy.

And even the Big Six you can get by on the nutshells, I should think.
No reason why anyone with half a brain needs to look at the exact
parameters of what is and isn't a personal attack. Don't be mean to
people, and you'll do just fine.

-Phil


body:
On Sep 15, 2006, at 8:41 PM, Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:

> Aslong as you don't go willy-nilly and do crazy stuff (there is a
> reason we let an anon make a few mistakes before we zap him), this is
> fine. Infact, it is how many (most?) of us use wikipedia.

I'd guess all of us - policy is long past the point where anyone can
actually remember all of it.

-Phil


body:
On Sep 15, 2006, at 9:09 PM, geni wrote:

>
>> If I can't remember
>> how many warnings a vandal gets, I'll just zap 'em for 24 hours two
>> warnings early, and call it a day.
>
> This violates AGF thus WP:DICK.
>
> As an admin you are not empowered to do this. Those who enjoy state
> analogies would use the comparison you have the role of the police
> rather than the executive.
>
> Those who prefer analogies from the world of comic books would argue
> that you're Judge Dread rather than Rorschach. You do not have the
> power to decide to make a practice of not warning vandals.
>

Unless I happened to guess wrong and two warnings is now the
convention, I didn't say I was swearing off vandal warning. I said
I'm not going to worry about going up from {{test}} to {{test500}} or
whatever insane number has been cooked up - I'll warn once or twice,
zap, and call it a day.

>> If it's against
>> policy, it must be bad for some reason, so just explain to me what it
>> does that's bad.
>
> You wish to waste other people's time?
>
If it's not obvious why it's bad, I don't really see it as a waste of
time.

>> I figure anything so complex an admin
>> who's been editing for two and a half years can't do it is
>> fundamentally broken.
>
> You realise you've just claimed that our copyright policy is
> fundamentally broken? We've got enough problems with people ignoring
> it or trying to get around it we don't need any more.

Is our copyright policy that bad? We should probably fix it up then.

-Phil


body:
This is exactly what Im looking for.
In the source I just see this

{{Start an article}}

How do I make this function on my site ?

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Gerard" <dgerard at gmail.com>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Create new article - module ?

> On 15/09/06, Thomas <thomas at klassisk.dk> wrote:
>
>> To create a new article in the standard installation I have to create a
>> link
>> first. Then click on the link to write the article.
>> I search for a module that enable unexperienced users to create an
>> article
>> with one click (maybe in the menu)
>
>
> See the front page of a Wikinews edition, e.g. http://en.wikinews.org/
> - you'll see a box which anyone can type a title into and press a
> button to create the article. This uses the <inputbox> extension - not
> sure if this is part of the standard MediaWiki distribution.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Steve Summit

body:
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
> Look, lets not judge him on his intentions. It's just silly. If he
> does make a mistake, take him to task on it, but... lets not judge
> people *before they've actually done something wrong*, ok?

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but we're actually -- or at
any rate some sectors of the project are -- very very good at
doing exactly that.  For example, there was that big noisy case
a week or two ago where a sysop was summarily desysopped and/or
banned for saying he was thinking of handing out some deleted
article text.


body:
On Sep 15, 2006, at 9:51 PM, Steve Summit wrote:

> Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
>> Look, lets not judge him on his intentions. It's just silly. If he
>> does make a mistake, take him to task on it, but... lets not judge
>> people *before they've actually done something wrong*, ok?
>
> Forgive me for stating the obvious, but we're actually -- or at
> any rate some sectors of the project are -- very very good at
> doing exactly that.  For example, there was that big noisy case
> a week or two ago where a sysop was summarily desysopped and/or
> banned for saying he was thinking of handing out some deleted
> article text.

Actually, the big thing there was that he suggested he'd provide some
deleted article text that contained personal information to a bunch
of banned trolls, without adequately researching the situation first.

Ironic that you're now commenting on it without adequately
researching it...

-Phil


body:
Phil Sandifer write:
> On Sep 15, 2006, at 9:51 PM, Steve Summit wrote:
>> Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
>>> ...lets not judge people *before they've actually done something
>>> wrong*, ok?
>>
>> Forgive me for stating the obvious, but we're actually -- or at
>> any rate some sectors of the project are -- very very good at
>> doing exactly that.  For example, there was that big noisy case
>> a week or two ago where a sysop was summarily desysopped and/or
>> banned for saying he was thinking of handing out some deleted
>> article text.
>
> Actually, the big thing there was that he suggested he'd provide some
> deleted article text that contained personal information to a bunch
> of banned trolls, without adequately researching the situation first.

Yeah, that's about the way I remembered it.  My point was that he
said "I'm thinking of doing <horrible thing>", or "I'm going to
do <horrible thing>", and instead of saying "No, you shouldn't do
that" or "No, you shouldn't do that, or else we'll de-admin you",
we just cut to the chase and de-adminned him.  (As I understood it.
No, I didn't research it thoroughly, because I don't have time
for that, just as you don't have time for bureaucracy! :-) )


from_name: Thomas Pedersen

body:
I found the page
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Inputbox

It works now. Thanks

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Gerard" <dgerard at gmail.com>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org>
Cc: <mediawiki-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Create new article - module ?

> On 15/09/06, Thomas <thomas at klassisk.dk> wrote:
>> From: "David Gerard" <dgerard at gmail.com>
>
>> > See the front page of a Wikinews edition, e.g. http://en.wikinews.org/
>> > - you'll see a box which anyone can type a title into and press a
>> > button to create the article. This uses the <inputbox> extension - not
>> > sure if this is part of the standard MediaWiki distribution.
>
>> This is exactly what Im looking for.
>> In the source I just see this
>> {{Start an article}}
>> How do I make this function on my site ?
>
>
> I'm not sure, but I'm sure mediawiki-l will know!
>
> (cc'd to mediawiki-l)
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Guy Chapman aka JzG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Eep!  It's borked!

body:
Anyone know when the database will be unlocked?

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


from_name: Christoph Seydl

body:
Hi,

there is a discussion on verifiability in the German-speaking Wikipedia.
There are discussions how freely the German Wikipedia may design its
policy on verifiability.

* Are there any rules (minimum requirements) how verifiability should be
designed in different Wikipedias?
* Must there be a source for every included material (e.g. a basket is a
cylindric vessel)?
* Is it enough that only disputed material must be sourced?
* May a poll abolish the requirement of verifiability?

I hope, you can help


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Christoph Seydl wrote:
> Hi,
>
> there is a discussion on verifiability in the German-speaking Wikipedia.
> There are discussions how freely the German Wikipedia may design its
> policy on verifiability.
>
> * Are there any rules (minimum requirements) how verifiability should be
> designed in different Wikipedias?
> * Must there be a source for every included material (e.g. a basket is a
> cylindric vessel)?
> * Is it enough that only disputed material must be sourced?
> * May a poll abolish the requirement of verifiability?
>
> I hope, you can help
Hoi,
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/basket shows you baskets.. two out of the
four shown are not cylindric.

When a point of view is "verified" by sources, it does not mean that the
point of view is correct. There are sources that say that the holocaust
is a lie. If this is true because of there being sources that say that
this is true, then there is a problem with the sources. When you then
say that a court of law proved that something is not true, than it is a
known fact that the world is flat.

Obviously you can have a poll that abolishes the requirement of
verifiability. But that is like saying that all the juries that send
people to the executioner were right in doing so.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-09-16

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Template with thumb image (with link in description)... FAILED!
Running test Template infinite loop... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML Hex character encoding.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!

Passed 412 of 429 tests (96.04%) FAILED!