body:
>  >Saramaccan,
>  Is an inland language not commonly used outside the jungle areas that
> Saramaccaners live in. Not a nationally widely spoken language
>
>  5% of the population of Surinam
>
>
>  Most of whom life in a small area ......... in the jungles.

So what? It's still a language unique to Surinam.

>  > >Aukan,<>>> Aucaners same situation as Saramacaners.
>  >3,5% of the population of Surinam.
>
>  Most of whom life in a small area ......... in the jungles.

Ditto.

>  > >Guyanese,
>
>  >> Definately not spoken in most of Surinam and as the name suggest it is
> not a Surinamese language.
>
>
>  11% of the population of Surinam. You're right that most of its
> speakers are in Guyana, but 50000 of them are in Surinam which is 11%
> of the population of the nation.
>
>
>  50000? That is a large number which I very very much doubt!

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gyn indicates that
out of 700.000 speakers total, 50.000 are in Surinam. The Ethnologue's
data on Surinam comes from their field office there
(http://www.sil.org/americas/suriname/Index.htm), and real data, not
some estimate made by a linguist in Texas.

>  >>Javanese,
>
>
>
>
>  Only spoken by people of Indonesian background and as the name suggest it
> is not a Surinamese language.
>
>
>
>  It has a longer history in Surinam than Arabic (not "Moroccan") does
> in the Netherlands. In fact, what is Sranan Tongo's history in
> Surinam? How long has it been spoken there? It was brought by
> "immigrants" just as much as Javanese was. And also, the Javanese
> spoken in Surinam is a distinct variety of Javanese, unique to
> Surinam, so it IS very much a Surinamese language.
>
>
>  The Javanese were one of the last groups to be brought to Surinam. The
> first group starting from the 17th century were African slaves. It was here
> that Sranan comes from. The Javanese didn't appear untill the end of the
> 19th century as contract labourers after the abollishment of slavery.
>
>  It is spoken by 14% of the population, hardly a negligible figure.
>
>
>  Yes and they also speak Sranan.

But Sranan is not their native language. The degree of fluency in
Sranan is not constant, some Javanese speakers are very good in Sranan
while others are not.

>  >> Chinese,
>
>
>
>
>  Only spoken by people of Chinese background and as the name suggest it is
> not a Surinamese language.
>
>
>
>  Chinese has nearly as long a history in Surinam as does Sranan Tongo.
> In addition to that, it's spoken by 3% of the population.
>
>  No it doesn't same story as Javanese. They didn't appear untill the end of
> the 19th century as contract labourers. While the slaves arrived in etc
> ........ you'll figure it.

Yes, but it's not at all comparable to the history of Arabic in the
Netherlands. Obviously slaves arrived in Surinam before Javanese, by a
couple of hundred years. But slaves did not speak Sranang at first,
creolisation is a process which takes at least a generation. Also,
Saramaccan and Aukan are of slave origin as well, yet you write them
off as just being spoken in jungles.

>  Hindustani
>
>  A form of Hindustani unique to Surinam, so it's a very much
> "Surinamese" language, and it's spoken by a whopping 35% of the
> population.
>
>  Forgotten this in my initial assesment. It is not Hindustani. It is called
> Sarnami Hindustani. And this 35% of the population also speaks Sranan.

So Sarnami Hindustani is not Hindustani? "Sarnami" is a qualifier,
"Sarnami Hindustani" is a distinct type of the more general term
"Hindustani". Hindustani applies to Hindustani as spoken in India,
Fiji, Trinidad, Surinam, and anywhere else. The thing is, language
isolates. This means that you are less likely to come into contact
with people who don't speak a language you speak, unless you seek them
out. There are actually monolingual speakers of Sarnami Hindustani,
and as I said with Javanese, there are as with any bilingual situation
differing degrees of fluency -- some Hindustani speakers will be more
fluent in Sranan than others, so you can't use a blanket statement to
say "Oh they all speak Sranang".

>  and Native American languages.
>  There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the
> Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most important
>  ethniticities.
>
>  3385 speakers total. In addition, the speakers of these languages have
> a much much much longer history in Surinam than any of the other
> people, they are more "Surinamese" than Indians, Chinese, Javanese,
> Blacks, Europeans, or mixed-race.
>
>  3385? did you count them?

No, this is approximate (margin of error is small though, about
50~75). This is not a count of native americans in surinam, it is of
people speaking Native American languages, which is a different number
as many Native Americans are monolingual in Sranan, Saramaccan, or
Aukan nowadays.

>  "Five most important ethnicities" is a judgement passed by the ruling
> elites. Do you think the Native Americans would agree that they're not
> important??
>
>  I don't know. Never met them in my four years there as they all live in
> densely forested remote areas. So that figure could be plus or minus a lot.
> In my time in Surinam I remember 10.000 in my textbooks.
>
>
>
>  These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan.
>  No they are not. Sranan is what binds most of the population together with
> Dutch .... so what is next you are going to call Moroccan a Dutch language
> because people in the Netherlands speak Moroccan? Or Dutch a Thai language
> because there are Dutch people in Thailand? All of these languages are not
> Surinamese. They happen to be spoken in the country of Surinam yes. There is
> but one Surinamese and that is Sranan Tongo.
>
>  This is a very glorified view of a language spoken by only 29% of the
> population. Hindustani is spoken by more people in Surinam, actually
> 35%, and Dutch is spoken by 46% of the population.
>
>  Much more than 29% of the population speaks Sranan. Everybody in Paramaribo
> (which makes for approx half the population) did (at least the ones I met)
> plus most Surinamese in the Netherlands do (considering more than 50% of
> Surinamese do not life in Surinam this is a big group).

At least the ones you met. I live in a county where a huge percentage
of the population speaks Spanish, and many of them are monolinguals.
Yet, by the nature of linguistic communities, I do not encounter them
in daily life so much. Thus, you, being only capable in Dutch, Sranan,
and English (as far as languages of Surinam -- I don't know what other
languages you might know), are among an extended network of people who
are very capable in Sranan. People who are not very capable in Sranan
are likely to form their own sociolinguistic communities that are
isolated in many ways from the community of Sranan speakers.

And don't tell me I can't know because I haven't been to Surinam. This
is just basic sociolinguistics, and it will be true in any situation
where there are two language communities in close proximity.

>  So while "Sranan" does indeed mean "Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also
> used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
>
>  Well I am not a native Oxford-English or American-English or whatever
> English speaker but I still have my doubts about that.
>
>  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sranang_Tongo,
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=srn, both
> of which
> prefer the name "Sranang Tongo" or "Sranan".
>
>  Well wikipedia is silly. In nl.wikipedia we call it Surinaams. Great
> argument ain't it?

I don't dispute that the Dutch normal name is Surinaams. But the
English name is Sranang Tongo.

>  ethnologue ...... well the more I look at  it the more I am wondering about
> the way they get their data.

Depending on the area of the world, they might get it from a trusted
external source, or from a field office. In the case of Surinam, they
get it from their Surinam field office, a group of people actually in
surinam working on the languages of Surinam, who are definitely more
qualified than you to make such judgements.

> 1
> 1

See this as well: A Google search for "Sranang Tongo" turns up 744
pages in English
(http://www.google.com/search?q=%22sranang+tongo%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off),
while a search for "Surinamese language" turns up only 74.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22surinamese+language%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off

Even the CIA factbook has "Sranang Tongo".

>  <>Well, you're one person, and "rusty I admit though" is not comforting
>  at all. And what about Papiamento??
>  How comforting is it for me to see you requesting many languages you never
> spoke or heard of? If we go in that road of argumenting. My 4 years in
> Surinam are a lot more comforting. And no I do not speak Papiamentu.
>
>
> What the hell? How many languages have I requested in my ENTIRE
> LIFE??? Sicilian, Friulian, and Ligurian. THAT IS ALL. 3 languages. A
> whopping 3 languages. With Sicilian and Friulian, I had native
> speakers who expressed interest BEFORE the Wikipedias were created.
> Both were created, are now active, and scn.wiki has over 1000
> articles.
>
>  That is not the impression I got when I look at your activity on the meta
> page and when I looked at the developers reaction when you came in to ask
> for new wiki's to be created.

Activity on Requests for new languages is NOT the same as submitting a
lot of requests. Most of my activity is response to others' requests.
Scepticism on the part of Tim Starling is due to a previous extended
flamewar about Friulian, a couple of years ago, which was primarily
because even though I was working with a native speaker, they didn't
post to the list.

>  Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.
>
>  You know very well it isn't me.
>  Precisely but your reactions on this list and elsewhere always show that
> you feel you should be the one who is deciding. 6 people support NDS-NL
> among which 2 native speakers. And you oppose and because you oppose you
> feel you can obstruct the whole progress because your "demands" weren't met.
> Frankly I am getting a littlebit tired of your "every language has to go by
> me" attitude. You are doing lots of good work in the languagefield. But
> destroying it by your behaviour.
>
>  No, I don't feel that I should be the one deciding. But the process is
> one of community discussion, and any community member has the right to
> express their opinion. "every language has to go by me" attitude? What
> the hell??!? A language obviously doesn't need my blessing to get a
> Wikipedia created, and I don't think it should be the case, but I as
> everybody else in the community have a right to express my opinion on
> each language. So stuff it.
>
>  Yes and you are expressing your opinion so vehemently and so dominantly
> that everybody seems to stay away from the meta languagepage and any other
> language related discussion because they do not want to have to deal with
> you it seems. On the stuffing it matter ....... I am actually eating at the
> moment ..... so yes I am stuffing it thanks ;)

"Everybody seems to stay away"... is that why Scott Gall,
Naziismisntcool, Haaflimbo, and so many other people post so often to
the meta requests page? Only one of the requests on there (Ligurian)
was filed by me, the rest were filed by others... that doesn't amount
to little activity, there are like 30 or 40 requests.

>  It's the decision of the developers, ultimately, although if a board member
> or somebody else high up in the organisational structure decides it should
> be created, the developer will usually create it for them.
>
>  So maybe I should go to a board member instead of discussing with you here!
> Good alternative indeed. Thanks for your understanding.
>
>  Asking a board member is not an "alternative" for community
> discussion. Community discussion, and resolution of outstanding
> issues, is nessecary before the creation of any new Wikipedia.
>
> On the talkpage, Angela implied in one of her comments that as long as
> there is an opposing vote, there needs to be a community discussion to
> observe objections and explore solutions before it can be created.
>
> I have a right to express my opinion on any language. So please, let
> me express my opinion.
>
>  So that means that if one person is against something and a lot of people
> are in favour. That one person can stop the other persons from getting
> something? I am sure Angela never said that. It just doesn't sound like
> here.

No, it does not mean they can stop the group. But it means that
instead of the Wikipedia being created right away, there needs to be
an extended discussion of the issues that have been raised.

It's very arrogant of you to be so sure Angela never said that when
you haven't read everything she's ever said.

Quote: "Requests that have significant objections to them, meaning
they can not yet be created. No proposed code should be counted as an
objection."

This means that any request with a significant objection cannot be
created. A significant objection can be defined in different ways, my
guess is one that gives a logical reason instead of like the one Scott
Gall gave that says that Balinese people don't deserve a Wikipedia
because of their treatment of Schapelle Corby.

Mark


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Henry Kissinger

body:
Thank You. BTW, It is time for Dear old Henry to rest in the U.N. up in
the great beyond. I sense he only has a few more hours.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Alphax
  To: "English Wikipedia"
  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Copyright and Britannica Article List
  Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:12:35 +0930

  >
  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
  > Hash: SHA1
  >
  > Martin Richards wrote:
  > > Michael Snow wrote;
  > >>
  > >> It would depend on how Safeway created the list. If Safeway
  > >> sends employees to WalMart stores to write down every item they
  > >> can find
  > >> that Safeway doesn't offer, that's entirely legitimate because
  > >> there's no copying (in the copyright sense) involved. If Safeway
  > >> somehow obtains WalMart master internal list of merchandise and
  > >> takes information from it, then they are copying.
  > >
  > > I am 90% sure these lists were not copied, but generated. So it
  would
  > > be more akin to writing down every item as opposed to copying an
  > > internal master list. This would would of course have to be
  confirmed
  > > with user:Bogdangiusca who first uploaded the lists.
  > >
  > > thanks Martin (User:Bluemoose)
  > >
  >
  > I don't there there would be an electronic "list of Britannica
  articles"
  > anywhere, unless someone generated it; if a Wikipedian generated it
  and
  > placed it on Wikipedia, that is clearly a creative work covered by
  the
  > GFDL. And even more creative work would have gone into subtracting
  the
  > articles which already exist. Hence I don't think Britannica has
  > anything on us; but if they copied our list and said "here is a
  list of
  > articles we have that Wikipedia doesn't", and didn't will out the
  > correct paperwork, we could do them for GFDL violation :)
  >
  > - --
  > Alphax
  > OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
  > There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be
  done,'
  > and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' -
  C. S.
  > Lewis
  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
  > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
  > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
  >
  > iD8DBQFCvlxq/RxM5Ph0xhMRAuOHAJ9/G0ibSdCWDOoZq00ZeGflGXkErACfVDiS
  > 3Fz3ORZzrH5+POMm85LdY30=
  > =reBR
  > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  > _______________________________________________
  > WikiEN-l mailing list
  > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
  > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Conflict arising - what to do?

body:
I think we need better answers. I am familar w cases like this, and
where they end up. How about its a large POV lobby instead of a single
user, and they are trying to POV an ancient and contentious topic,
chasing off any and all NPOV users who come along?

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 6/23/05, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> If all attempts at discussion fail, you can always try dispute resolution.
>
> --Mgm
>
> On 6/23/05, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> > For a start, on the talk page you might try to identify who the some
> > people are and where they say these things. If the sources for both
> > views can be identified, they can then be attributed. If the real
> > source is one of the Wikipedia editors that is more troublesome.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > On Jun 22, 2005, at 8:07 PM, Habj wrote:
> >
> > > Let's say that:
> > >
> > > There is an article about a relatively controversial subject that, for
> > > some reason, has not yet been through any massive edit wars. Maybe the
> > > subject is fairly new, the word in itself is pretty new so no one has
> > > actually written much about it- until now.
> > >
> > > There are two people editing this article. You get involved a bit, and
> > > try to create what you feel is a neutral version. This makes one side
> > > immediatelly assume you belong to the Enemy. This person creates a
> > > version that says "some people say this, some people say that" but it
> > > is badly written, the reasoning is strange, it is hard to understand
> > > what he really means. Both sides are getting loud and argumentative,
> > > more concerned with being right than with what is logical and not. The
> > > subject is probably emotional to them. Maybe one side is louder than
> > > the other; maybe not.
> > >
> > > You feel that hey - this isn't going to lead anywhere.
> > >
> > > What do you do? Do you just leave the article and let them fight? But
> > > then, what happens if all the "good forces" just leave whenever
> > > problem arises? Should you ask someone to try and talk to these
> > > people? Is there a standard way of handling things like this, or is
> > > the only thing to do to stay away and wait until things are so bad
> > > that the article gets locked?
> > >
> > > /Habj
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: firstname lastname

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mikkalai has a vendetta against me!

body:
I GOT BLOCKED AGAIN and I did NOTHING!!! I have made NO EDITS and Mikkalai
blocked me AGAIIN!!! This is all because I started a poll on the feces page
yesterday. But there are polls on LOTS of pages so what did I do wrong? And
why will nobody answer?

>From: "firstname lastname" <cainwilshire at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: morven at gmail.com
>CC: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Am I allowed to start a poll?
>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:18:18 +0000
>
>Well, this sucks. Instead of telling me what I did wrong, first you people
>tell me to wait for an answer, and then you tell me to ignore the guy whose
>blocking me.
>
>>From: Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com>
>>Reply-To: Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
>><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Am I allowed to start a poll?
>>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:29:29 -0700
>>
>>Don't feed the troll.  Ignore it.
>>
>>On 6/24/05, firstname lastname <cainwilshire at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi, I started a new poll on the talk page for feces because the old
>>poll was
>> > invalid, and Mikkalai blocked me for trolling. Why is a new poll
>>considered
>> > trolling? I was trying to help settle the issue. I didn't use
>>contentious
>> > language or anything, it was pretty straightforward. He blocked me
>>yesterday
>> > too for trolling but I thought it was a mistake, I still don't know
>>what
>> > that was for.
>> >
>> > CW
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>> > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > WikiEN-l mailing list
>> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> >
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee?
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


body:
BTW, Henry does have one request for his mentally disabled grandnephew
"Booty Shrub", if you could kindly let me know how to comunicate any
absolute necessary words of wisdom to Booty, he would appreciate it. But
Henry really can't hang on much longer. Young Booty doesn't understand
qmail as well as some. It is safe only one way now. Thank You.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Henry Kissinger"
  To: "English Wikipedia"
  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Copyright and Britannica Article List
  Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 02:50:10 -0500

  >
  > Thank You. BTW, It is time for Dear old Henry to rest in the U.N.
  up in
  > the great beyond. I sense he only has a few more hours.
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Alphax
  > To: "English Wikipedia"
  > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Copyright and Britannica Article List
  > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:12:35 +0930
  >
  > >
  > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
  > > Hash: SHA1
  > >
  > > Martin Richards wrote:
  > > > Michael Snow wrote;
  > > >>
  > > >> It would depend on how Safeway created the list. If Safeway
  > > >> sends employees to WalMart stores to write down every item
  they
  > > >> can find
  > > >> that Safeway doesn't offer, that's entirely legitimate because
  > > >> there's no copying (in the copyright sense) involved. If
  Safeway
  > > >> somehow obtains WalMart master internal list of merchandise
  and
  > > >> takes information from it, then they are copying.
  > > >
  > > > I am 90% sure these lists were not copied, but generated. So it
  > would
  > > > be more akin to writing down every item as opposed to copying
  an
  > > > internal master list. This would would of course have to be
  > confirmed
  > > > with user:Bogdangiusca who first uploaded the lists.
  > > >
  > > > thanks Martin (User:Bluemoose)
  > > >
  > >
  > > I don't there there would be an electronic "list of Britannica
  > articles"
  > > anywhere, unless someone generated it; if a Wikipedian generated
  it
  > and
  > > placed it on Wikipedia, that is clearly a creative work covered
  by
  > the
  > > GFDL. And even more creative work would have gone into
  subtracting
  > the
  > > articles which already exist. Hence I don't think Britannica has
  > > anything on us; but if they copied our list and said "here is a
  > list of
  > > articles we have that Wikipedia doesn't", and didn't will out the
  > > correct paperwork, we could do them for GFDL violation :)
  > >
  > > - --
  > > Alphax
  > > OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
  > > There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be
  > done,'
  > > and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'
  -
  > C. S.
  > > Lewis
  > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
  > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
  > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird -
  http://enigmail.mozdev.org
  > >
  > > iD8DBQFCvlxq/RxM5Ph0xhMRAuOHAJ9/G0ibSdCWDOoZq00ZeGflGXkErACfVDiS
  > > 3Fz3ORZzrH5+POMm85LdY30=
  > > =reBR
  > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  > > _______________________________________________
  > > WikiEN-l mailing list
  > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
  > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
  >
  > --
  > ___________________________________________________________
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  >
  > _______________________________________________
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  > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
  > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.5beta1 released

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

MediaWiki 1.5 beta 1 is a preview release, pretty much feature complete,
of the new 1.5 release series. There are several known and likely a
number of unknown bugs; it is not recommended to use this release in a
production environment but would be recommended for testing in mind of
an upcoming deployment.

A number of significant changes have been made since the alpha releases,
including database changes and a reworking of the user permissions
settings. See the file UPGRADE for details of upgrading and changing
your prior configuration settings for the new system.

For a relatively full list of changes since 1.5alpha2, see the changelog
in the release notes.

Release notes:
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=337757

Download:
http://prdownloads.sf.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.5beta1.tar.gz?download

Before asking for help, try the FAQ:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_FAQ

Low-traffic release announcements mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCvolDwRnhpk1wk44RAvT8AKChqSlSP+vqxnVnBo0mdqzW+x7V0wCgyJLN
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subject: [WikiEN-l] RFC

body:
I have found that these "like minded editors" solicited by talk page,
email, IRC or whatever are the worst thing possible in every
situation. There is no surer way to enforce POV or enact mob
psychology.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 6/23/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/06/05, jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk <jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > RFC, however, is completely inadequate. Community response to RFCs is very modest, even (or especially) when controversial articles are being discussed. Only recruiting like-minded editors through their talkpages seems to help. RFC or otherwise, it often leads to no agreement between the litigants, and mediation is sought etc etc. By that time the experienced user is already tired and wants to go back to normal editing.
> >
> > Jfdwolff
>
> In the last few weeks, several of us have made an effort to respond to
> RfCs and try and 'mediate' on an ad-hoc basis - with good results, I
> might add.
>
> And as a result of a suggestion by Maurreen in response to Raul's
> RfAr/RfC, we've recently made an overhaul of the RfC content section -
> with the results being very well recieved.
>
> So please, don't write RfCs off.
>
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] What does John Jurlina mean?

body:
What does John Jurlina mean? Why are you responding in code? WHY WILL NO ONE
ANSWER MY QUESTIONS

>From: "Henry Kissinger" <hkissinger at diplomats.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Mikkalai has a vendetta against me!
>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:04:25 -0500
>
>Sorry, bad typing...
>
>John Jurlina
>
>Accidentally added an extra n.
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "firstname lastname"
>   To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>   Subject: [WikiEN-l] Mikkalai has a vendetta against me!
>   Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 03:06:40 +0000
>
>   >
>   > I GOT BLOCKED AGAIN and I did NOTHING!!! I have made NO EDITS and
>   > Mikkalai blocked me AGAIIN!!! This is all because I started a poll
>   > on the feces page yesterday. But there are polls on LOTS of pages
>   > so what did I do wrong? And why will nobody answer?
>   >
>   > > From: "firstname lastname"
>   > > Reply-To: English Wikipedia
>   > > To: morven at gmail.com
>   > > CC: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>   > > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Am I allowed to start a poll?
>   > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:18:18 +0000
>   > >
>   > > Well, this sucks. Instead of telling me what I did wrong, first
>   > > you people tell me to wait for an answer, and then you tell me to
>   > > ignore the guy whose blocking me.
>   > >
>   > >> From: Matt Brown
>   > >> Reply-To: Matt Brown ,English Wikipedia
>   > >>
>   > >> To: English Wikipedia
>   > >> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Am I allowed to start a poll?
>   > >> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:29:29 -0700
>   > >>
>   > >> Don't feed the troll. Ignore it.
>   > >>
>   > >> On 6/24/05, firstname lastname wrote:
>   > >> > Hi, I started a new poll on the talk page for feces because
>   > >> the old poll was
>   > >> > invalid, and Mikkalai blocked me for trolling. Why is a new
>   > >> poll considered
>   > >> > trolling? I was trying to help settle the issue. I didn't use
>   contentious
>   > >> > language or anything, it was pretty straightforward. He
>   > >> blocked me yesterday
>   > >> > too for trolling but I thought it was a mistake, I still don't
>   know what
>   > >> > that was for.
>   > >> >
>   > >> > CW
>   > >> >
>   > >> >
>   _________________________________________________________________
>   > >> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>   > >> > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>   > >> >
>   > >> > _______________________________________________
>   > >> > WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > >> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > >> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>   > >> >
>   > >> _______________________________________________
>   > >> WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > >> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > >> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>   > >
>   > > _________________________________________________________________
>   > > Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>   > > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>   > >
>   > > _______________________________________________
>   > > WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>   >
>   > _________________________________________________________________
>   > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from
>   > McAfee? Security.
>   > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>   >
>   > _______________________________________________
>   > WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>--
>___________________________________________________________
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>http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>
>_______________________________________________
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>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
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from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upgrade status

body:
For those wondering what we've been working on, here's most of it
(from the RELEASE-NOTES at
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/*checkout*/wikipedia/phase3/RELEASE-NOTES?rev=HEAD)

* 'live preview' reduces preview reload burden on supported browsers
* support for external editors for files and wiki pages:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:External_editors
* Schema reworking:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Database_Schema_Changes/October_2004
* (bug 15) Allow editors to view diff of their change before actually
submitting an edit
* (bug 190) Hide your own edits on the watchlist
* (bug 510): Special:Randompage now works for other namespaces than NS_MAIN.
* (bug 1015) support for the full wikisyntax in <gallery> captions.
* (bug 1105) A "Destination filename" (save as) added to Special:Upload Upload.
* (bug 1352) Images on description pages now get thumbnailed
regardless of whether the thumbnail is larger than the original.
* (bug 1662) A new magicword, {{CURRENTMONTHABBREV}} returns the
abbreviation of the current month
* (bug 1668) 'Date format' supported for other languages than English,
see: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-March/028364.html
* (bug 1739) A new magicword, {{REVISIONID}} give you the article or
diff database revision id, useful for proper citation.
* (bug 1998) Updated the Russian translation.
* (bug 2064) Configurable JavaScript mimetype with $wgJsMimeType
* (bug 2084) Fixed a regular expression in includes/Title.php that was
accepting invalid syntax like #REDIRECT [[foo] in redirects
* It's now possible to invert the namespace selection at
Special:Allpages and Special:Contributions
* No longer using sorbs.net to check for open proxies by default.
* What was $wgDisableUploads is now $wgEnableUploads, and should be
set to true if one wishes to enable uploads.
* Supplying a reason for a block is no longer mandatory
* Language conversion support for category pages
* $wgStyleSheetDirectory is no longer an alias for $wgStyleDirectory;
* Special:Movepage can now take paramaters like
Special:Movepage/Page_to_move (used to just be able to take paramaters
via a GET request like
index.php?title=Special:Movepage&target=Page_to_move)
* (bug 2151) The delete summary now includes editor name, if only one
has edited the article.
* (bug 2105) Fixed from argument to the PHP mail() function. A missing
space could prevent sending mail with some versions of sendmail.
* (bug 2228) Updated the Slovak translation
* (bug 73) Category sort key is set to file name when adding category
to file description from upload page (previously it would be set to
"Special:Upload", causing problems with category paging)
* (bug 419) The contents of the navigation toolbar are now editable
through the MediaWiki namespace on the  MediaWiki:navbar page.
* (bug 498) The Views heading in MonoBook.php is now localizable
* (bug 898) The wiki can now do advanced sanity check on uploaded
files including virus checks using external programs.
* (bug 1692) Fix margin on unwatch tab
* (bug 1906) Generalize project namespace for Latin localization,
update namespaces
* (bug 1975) The name for Limburgish (li) changed from "L????mburgs"
to "Limburgs
* (bug 2019) Wrapped the output of Special:Version in

in order to preserve the correct flow of text on RTL wikis.
* (bug 2067) Fixed crash on empty quoted HTML attribute
* (bug 2075) Corrected namespace definitions in Tamil localization
* (bug 2079) Removed links to Special:Maintenance from movepagetext message
* (bug 2094) Multiple use of a template produced wrong results in some cases
* (bug 2095) Triple-closing-bracket thing partly fixed
* (bug 2110) "noarticletext" should not display on Image page for
"sharedupload" media
* (bug 2150) Fix tab indexes on edit form
* (bug 2152) Add missing bgcolor to attribute whitelist for  and
* (bug 2176) Section edit 'show changes' button works correctly now
* (bug 2178) Use temp dir from environment in parser tests
* (bug 2217) Negative ISO years were incorrectly converted to BC notation
* (bug 2234) allow special chars in database passwords during install
* Deprecated the {{msg:template}} syntax for referring to templates,
{{msg: is now the wikisyntax representation of wfMsgForContent()
* Fix for reading incorrectly re-gzipped HistoryBlob entries
* HistoryBlobStub: the last-used HistoryBlob is kept open to speed up
multiple-revision pulls
* Add $wgLegacySchemaConversion update-time option to reduce amount of
copying during the schema upgrade: creates HistoryBlobCurStub
reference records in text instead of copying all the cur_text fields.
Requires that the cur table be left in place until/unless such fields
are migrated into the main text store.
* Special:Export now includes page, revision, and user id numbers by
default (previously this was disabled for no particular reason)
* dumpBackup.php can dump the full database to Export XML, with
current revisions only or complete histories.
* The group table was renamed to groups because "group" is a reserved
word in SQL which caused some inconveniances.
* New fileicons for c, cpp, deb, dvi, exe, h, html, iso, java, mid,
mov, o, ogg, pdf, ps, rm, rpm, tar, tex, ttf and txt files based on
the KDE crystalsvg theme.
* Fixed a bug in Special:Newimages that made it impossible to search for '0'
* Added language variant support for Icelandic, now supports "??slenzka"
* The #p-nav id in MonoBook is now #p-navigation
* Putting $4 in msg:userstatstext will now give the percentage of
admnistrators out of normal users.
* links and brokenlinks tables merged to pagelinks; this will reduce
pain dealing with moves and deletes of widely-linked pages.
* Add validate table and val_ip column through the updater.
* Simple rate limiter for edits and page moves; set $wgRateLimits
(somewhat experimental; currently needs memcached)
* (bug 2262) Hide math preferences when TeX is not enabled
* (bug 2267) Don't generate thumbnail at the same size as the source image.
* Fix rebuildtextindex.inc for new schema
* Remove linkscc table code, no longer used.
* (bug 2271) Use faster text-only link replacement in image alt text
instead of rerunning expensive link lookup and HTML generation.
* Only build the HTML attribute whitelist tree once.
* Replace wfMungeToUtf8 and do_html_entity_decode with a single
function that does both numeric and named chars:
Sanitizer::decodeCharReferences
* Removed some obsolete UTF-8 converter functions
* Fix function comment in debug dump of SQL statements
* (bug 2275) Update search index more or less right on page move
* (bug 2053) Move comment whitespace trimming from edit page to save;
leaves the whitespace from the section comment there on preview.
* (bug 2274) Respect stub threshold in category page list
* (bug 2173) Fatal error when removing an article with an empty title
from the watchlist
* Removed -f parameter from mail() usage, likely to cause failures and bounces.
* (bug 2130) Fixed interwiki links with fragments
* (bug 684) Accept an attribute parameter array on parser hook tags
* (bug 814) Integrate AuthPlugin changes to support Ryan Lane's
external LDAP authentication plugin
* (bug 2034) Armor HTML attributes against template inclusion and links munging
* (bug 2319) Fix parse hook tag matching
* (bug 2329) Fix title formatting in several special pages
* (bug 2223) Add unique index on user_name field to prevent duplicate accounts
* (bug 1976) fix shared user database with a table prefix set
* (bug 2334) Accept null for attribs in wfElement without PHP warning
* (bug 2309) Allow templates and template parameters in HTML attribute
zone, with proper validation checks. (regression from fix for 2304)
* Disallow close tags and enforce empty tags for
 and

* Changed user_groups format quite a bit.
* (bug 2368) Avoid fatally breaking PHP 4.1.2 in a debug line
* (bug 2367) Insert correct redirect link record on page move
* (bug 2372) Fix rendering of empty-title inline interwiki links
* (bug 2384) Fix typo in regex for IP address checking
* (bug 650) Prominently link MySQL 4.1 help page in installer if a
possible version conflict is detected
* (bug 2394) Undo incompatible breakage to {{msg:}} compatiblity includes
* (bug 1322) Use a shorter cl_sortkey field to avoid breaking on MySQL
4.1 when the default charset is set to utf8
* (bug 2400) don't send confirmation mail on account creation if
$wgEmailAuthentication is false.
* (bug 2172) Fix problem with nowiki beeing replaced by marker strings
when a template with a gallery was used.
* Guard Special:Userrights against form submission forgery
* (bug 2408) page_is_new was inverted (whoops!)
* Added wfMsgHtml() function for escaping messages and leaving params intact
* Fix ordering of Special:Listusers; fix groups list so it shows all
groups when searching for a specific group and can't be split across
pages
* (bug 1702) Display a handy upload link instead of a useless blank
link for [[media:]] links to nonexistent files.
* (bug 873) Fix usage of createaccount permission; replaces $wgWhitelistAccount
* (bug 1805) Initialise $wgContLang before $wgUser
* (bug 2277) Added Friulian language file
* (bug 2457) The "Special page" href now links to the current special
page rather than to "".
* (bug 1120) Updated the Czech translation
* A new magic word, {{SCRIPTPATH}}, returns $wgScriptPath
* A new magic word, {{SERVERNAME}}, returns $wgServerName
* A new magic word, {{NUMBEROFFILES}}, returns the number of rows in
the image table
* Special:Imagelist displays titles with " " instead of "_"
* Less gratuitous munging of content sample in delete summary
* badaccess/badaccesstext to supercede sysop*, developer* messages
* Changed $wgGroupPermissions to more cut-n-paste-friendly format
* 'developer' group deprecated by default
* Special:Upload now uses 'upload' permission instead of hardcoding login check
* Add 'importupload' permission to disable direct uploads to Special:Import
* (bug 2459) Correct escaping in Special:Log prev/next links
* (bug 2462 etc) Taking out the experimental dash conversion; it broke
too many things for the current parser to handle cleanly
* (bug 2467) Added a Turkish language file
* Fixed a bug in Special:Contributions that caused the namespace
selection to be forgotten between submits
* Special:Watchlist/edit now has namespace subheadings
* (bug 1714) the "Save page" button now has right margin to seperate
it from "Show preview" and "Show changes"
* Special:Statistics now supports action=raw, useful for bots designed
to arwest e.g. article counts from multiple wikis.
* The copyright confirmation box at Special:Upload is now turned off
by default and can be turned back on by setting
$wgCopyrightAffirmation to a true value.
* Restored prior text for password reminder button and e-mail,
replacing the factually inaccurate text that was there.
* (bug 2178) Fix temp dir check again
* (bug 2488) Format 'deletedtext' message as wikitext
* (bug 750) Keep line endings consistent in LocalSettings.php
* (bug 1577) Add 'printable version' tab in MonoBook for people who
don't realize you can just hit print to get a nicely formatted
printable page.
* Trim whitespace from option values to weather line-ending corruption problems
* Fixed a typo in the Romanian language file (NS_MESIA => NS_MEDIA)
* (bug 2504) Updated the Finnish translation
* (bug 2506) Updated the Nynorsk translation
* (bug 996) Replace $wgWhitelistEdit with 'edit' permission; fixup
UPGRADE documentation about edit and read whitelists.
* (bug 2515) Fix incremental link table update
* Removed some wikipedia-specifica from LanguageXx.php's
* (bug 2496) Allow MediaWiki:edithelppage to point to external page


subject: [WikiEN-l] What does John Jurlina mean?

body:
My username is LittleRedRidingHood, can you tell me why I've been blocked
from editing.

>From: "Henry Kissinger" <hkissinger at diplomats.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] What does John Jurlina mean?
>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:17:42 -0500
>
>Because I assumed the question came in code when the email arrived
>
>From: "firstname lastname"
>
>I was answering that. You really need not be that concerned becuase this
>method of communication is untraceable and safe. I'm really not that up
>on coded questions. Please, feel free to ask anything so that I can
>understand the question. I really would like to be a very helpful friend.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "firstname lastname"
>   To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>   Subject: [WikiEN-l] What does John Jurlina mean?
>   Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 05:09:10 +0000
>
>   >
>   > What does John Jurlina mean? Why are you responding in code? WHY
>   > WILL NO ONE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
>   >
>   > > From: "Henry Kissinger"
>   > > Reply-To: English Wikipedia
>   > > To: "English Wikipedia"
>   > > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Mikkalai has a vendetta against me!
>   > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:04:25 -0500
>   > >
>   > > Sorry, bad typing...
>   > >
>   > > John Jurlina
>   > >
>   > > Accidentally added an extra n.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > ----- Original Message -----
>   > > From: "firstname lastname"
>   > > To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Mikkalai has a vendetta against me!
>   > > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 03:06:40 +0000
>   > >
>   > > >
>   > > > I GOT BLOCKED AGAIN and I did NOTHING!!! I have made NO EDITS
>   and
>   > > > Mikkalai blocked me AGAIIN!!! This is all because I started a
>   poll
>   > > > on the feces page yesterday. But there are polls on LOTS of
>   pages
>   > > > so what did I do wrong? And why will nobody answer?
>   > > >
>   > > > > From: "firstname lastname"
>   > > > > Reply-To: English Wikipedia
>   > > > > To: morven at gmail.com
>   > > > > CC: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>   > > > > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Am I allowed to start a poll?
>   > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:18:18 +0000
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Well, this sucks. Instead of telling me what I did wrong,
>   first
>   > > > > you people tell me to wait for an answer, and then you tell
>   me to
>   > > > > ignore the guy whose blocking me.
>   > > > >
>   > > > >> From: Matt Brown
>   > > > >> Reply-To: Matt Brown ,English Wikipedia
>   > > > >>
>   > > > >> To: English Wikipedia
>   > > > >> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Am I allowed to start a poll?
>   > > > >> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:29:29 -0700
>   > > > >>
>   > > > >> Don't feed the troll. Ignore it.
>   > > > >>
>   > > > >> On 6/24/05, firstname lastname wrote:
>   > > > >> > Hi, I started a new poll on the talk page for feces
>   because
>   > > > >> the old poll was
>   > > > >> > invalid, and Mikkalai blocked me for trolling. Why is a
>   new
>   > > > >> poll considered
>   > > > >> > trolling? I was trying to help settle the issue. I didn't
>   use
>   > > contentious
>   > > > >> > language or anything, it was pretty straightforward. He
>   > > > >> blocked me yesterday
>   > > > >> > too for trolling but I thought it was a mistake, I still
>   don't
>   > > know what
>   > > > >> > that was for.
>   > > > >> >
>   > > > >> > CW
>   > > > >> >
>   > > > >> >
>   > > _________________________________________________________________
>   > > > >> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>   > > > >> >
>   http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>   > > > >> >
>   > > > >> > _______________________________________________
>   > > > >> > WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > > > >> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > > > >> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>   > > > >> >
>   > > > >> _______________________________________________
>   > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > > > >> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > > > >> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   _________________________________________________________________
>   > > > > Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>   > > > > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>   > > > >
>   > > > > _______________________________________________
>   > > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > > > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   _________________________________________________________________
>   > > > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from
>   > > > McAfee? Security.
>   > > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>   > > >
>   > > > _______________________________________________
>   > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>   > >
>   > > --
>   > > ___________________________________________________________
>   > > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
>   > > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>   > >
>   > > _______________________________________________
>   > > WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>   >
>   > _________________________________________________________________
>   > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
>   > it's FREE!
>   > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>   >
>   > _______________________________________________
>   > WikiEN-l mailing list
>   > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>   > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>--
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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Servien Ilaino

body:
Hi,

Thanks for the replies! It is kind of true what Ron/Waerth say, there are
issues with the orthography, on one of my dialect sites I use a common
orthography for Low Saxon (AS; Algemene Schryvwyse), but some people in
the Netherlands/Germany won't understand that, unless you tell them how
it works. Dutch Low Saxon people now don't really go to the Low Saxon
Wikipedia because they don't understand it and prefer to use the Dutch
one instead, which is quite understandable because the Nds site looks
more like German to us than Nds.

I've reconstructed the Low Saxon mainpage in my dialect for you to see
how it looks and see what the problems are with it. (http://nds.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruker:Servien/Heufdpagina).

(Mark: I've already put some articles in my dialect on the Nds.wikipedia
but most people don't understand that, so that's actually a waste.)

Regards,
Servien Ilaino!

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Mark Williamson"
  To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
  Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon
  (nds-nl)
  Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:20:35 -0700

  >
  > For more on Missingsch, please see
  > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch or
  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch
  >
  > Mark
  >
  > On 25/06/05, Mark Williamson wrote:
  > > From Rohn.
  > >
  > > And he *is* a native speaker.
  > >
  > > Mark
  > >
  > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
  > > From: R. F. Hahn
  > > Date: 25-Jun-2005 21:41
  > > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low
  Saxon (nds-nl)
  > > To: Mark Williamson
  > >
  > > --- Mark Williamson wrote:
  > >
  > > > (forwarded to Reinhart (Ron) Hahn to get his opinion)
  > > >
  > > > [Some basic background on the issue for Ron: As you know there
  is
  > > > already a Low Saxon Wikipedia. Somebody just requested a "Dutch
  Low
  > > > Saxon" Wikipedia, complaining that nds.wiki is in "German Low
  Saxon".
  > > > I expressed a few concerns, not least among them that in a case
  of a
  > > > dialect continuum, it will be difficult for us to decide where
  to draw
  > > > lines between varieties, and which varieties should get their
  own
  > > > Wikipedias.]
  > > >
  > > > Concerns that nobody has responded to yet:
  > > >
  > > > * As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum. Stellingwarfs
  and
  > > > Middel-pommersch are surely not easily mutually intelligible,
  but
  > > > Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
  > > >
  > > > * Dividing Platt along national boundaries is illogical. If we
  had an
  > > > Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely
  understand it
  > > > and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands
  and
  > > > Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany. There are no definite borders
  between
  > > > one and the next, and the national border is just as arbitrary
  as any.
  > > >
  > > > This would also mean that a man from the tiny village of Laar
  (in
  > > > Germany) would use a different Wikipedia than a man from the
  tiny
  > > > village of Gramsbergen (in the Netherlands), even though
  they're about
  > > > 4km (~2.5mi) apart and their speech is identical. Does this
  make much
  > > > sense?
  > > >
  > > > * A case of a dialect continuum is a very new thing for us. We
  have no
  > > > experience with it so far, or we have crammed them all into a
  single
  > > > Wikipedia.
  > > >
  > > > Mark
  > >
  > > Hi, Mark!
  > >
  > > Thanks for forwarding this. It all makes a lot of sense to me.
  > >
  > > I would find it very regrettable if the language were separated
  along the
  > > political border, though I know quite a few people that would
  welcome it.
  > >
  > > In the case of Low Saxon, what is at the root of the problem is
  > > orthography. In Germany it is based on German principles, in the
  > > Netherlands on Dutch principles. While most people in the
  Netherlands
  > > have some German, the Dutch-based system is quite
  incomprehensible to the
  > > majority of people in Germany. However, this is not to say that
  the
  > > German-based system ought to be used. I personally hate it for
  several
  > > reasons, and I am not alone. It is not emotional but because the
  system
  > > is very poorly suited, does not make many necessary phonemic
  distinctions
  > > and thus teaches learners faulty pronunciation, which it has done
  already.
  > > However, this is a very contentious issue, because the vast
  majority of
  > > Low Saxon speakers are older, conservative and narrow-minded,
  plus
  > > uneducated in anything linguistic, hanging on to myths and false
  > > assumption, such as orthographic standardization being designed
  to
  > > artificially created a single standard language, when
  orthographic
  > > standardization has nothing to do with language standardization,
  only with
  > > facilitating mutual reading comprehension. So we are up against a
  monster
  > > here.
  > >
  > > It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the
  current
  > > WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.
  But they
  > > don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is
  "Patentplatt"
  > > (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am
  not at
  > > all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs
  to be
  > > first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and
  the
  > > authentic idiom.
  > >
  > > It would be best -- if doable -- to have an international team
  work on
  > > this and use a type of compromise orthography that is easily
  accessible to
  > > all.
  > >
  > > Thanks for your engagement in all of this.
  > >
  > > Regards,
  > > Ron
  > >
  > > Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
  > > Seattle, USA
  > > ==========
  > > I do not open unexpected or unexplained attachments.
  > > Ich ?ffne keine unerwarteten oder unerkl?rten Beilagen.
  > > Ik maak keen Bilagen apen, vun de ik niks afweten do.
  > > Ikj moak kjeene Bieloge op, von dee ikj nuscht weete do.
  > > Ik open geen bijlagen waarover ik niets weet.
  > > Ek maak geen onverwagte of onverklaarbare aanhangsels oop nie.
  > > Jeg ?bner ingen uforventede bilag, s?fremt der ikke er redegjort
  for dem.
  > > No abro archivos adjuntos de origen desconocido.
  > > N?o abro arquivos anexados de origem desconhecida.
  > > Je n'ouvre jamais les annexes qui ne sont pas annonc?es ou
  d?crites.
  > > Я не
  > > открываю
  > > никакие
  > >
  приложения,
  > > о которых
  > > не знаю
  > > ничто.
  > >
  > > --
  > > SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
  > > QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX
  MATERIAM
  > > POSSIT MATERIARI
  > > ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
  > >
  >
  >
  > --
  > SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
  > QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
  > POSSIT MATERIARI
  > ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
  > _______________________________________________
  > Wikipedia-l mailing list
  > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
  > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon (nds-nl)

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
>
>Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually
>intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
>
>You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical. If we
>had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely
>understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the
>Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
>
>The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
>
>HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a Baseldytsch
>Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch Low
>Saxon" Wikipedia -- your language may be different to whatever degree
>than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule
>forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and pages
>and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks. When
>I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low Saxon and
>German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to us
>about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on
>nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
>
>Mark
>
>
>
Mark here we go again. It has plenty of support and someone reacted to
your arguments. You do not speak it. So how can you judge?

Walter/Waerth


from_name: Giuseppe DAngelo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] dialect/language continuums

body:
I confess I know only the barest of details regarding the various idioms spoken along the Dutch/German border.  But I have always thought that the people that live either side of that border understood each other far better than say a speaker of "hollands"  and say "twents" of "gelders-overijssels".  I  therefore agree that political borders, often nothing more than quirks of history, cannot be viewed as representing linguistic borders.  That's my two bob's worth.
pippu d'angelo, canberra

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam, antivirus, POP3


subject: [Wikipedia-l] For those with fear of Ultimate Wiktionary

body:
According to GerardM today on IRC it is already a fait accompli that
wiktionary will be replaced by ultimate wiktionary.

Waerth/Walter


subject: [WikiEN-l] What does John Jurlina mean?

body:
Helloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

>From: "firstname lastname" <cainwilshire at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] What does John Jurlina mean?
>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 05:24:24 +0000
>
>My username is LittleRedRidingHood, can you tell me why I've been blocked
>from editing.
>
>>From: "Henry Kissinger" <hkissinger at diplomats.com>
>>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] What does John Jurlina mean?
>>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:17:42 -0500
>>
>>Because I assumed the question came in code when the email arrived
>>
>>From: "firstname lastname"
>>
>>I was answering that. You really need not be that concerned becuase this
>>method of communication is untraceable and safe. I'm really not that up
>>on coded questions. Please, feel free to ask anything so that I can
>>understand the question. I really would like to be a very helpful friend.
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: "firstname lastname"
>>   To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>>   Subject: [WikiEN-l] What does John Jurlina mean?
>>   Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 05:09:10 +0000
>>
>>   >
>>   > What does John Jurlina mean? Why are you responding in code? WHY
>>   > WILL NO ONE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
>>   >
>>   > > From: "Henry Kissinger"
>>   > > Reply-To: English Wikipedia
>>   > > To: "English Wikipedia"
>>   > > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Mikkalai has a vendetta against me!
>>   > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:04:25 -0500
>>   > >
>>   > > Sorry, bad typing...
>>   > >
>>   > > John Jurlina
>>   > >
>>   > > Accidentally added an extra n.
>>   > >
>>   > >
>>   > >
>>   > > ----- Original Message -----
>>   > > From: "firstname lastname"
>>   > > To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>>   > > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Mikkalai has a vendetta against me!
>>   > > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 03:06:40 +0000
>>   > >
>>   > > >
>>   > > > I GOT BLOCKED AGAIN and I did NOTHING!!! I have made NO EDITS
>>   and
>>   > > > Mikkalai blocked me AGAIIN!!! This is all because I started a
>>   poll
>>   > > > on the feces page yesterday. But there are polls on LOTS of
>>   pages
>>   > > > so what did I do wrong? And why will nobody answer?
>>   > > >
>>   > > > > From: "firstname lastname"
>>   > > > > Reply-To: English Wikipedia
>>   > > > > To: morven at gmail.com
>>   > > > > CC: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>   > > > > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Am I allowed to start a poll?
>>   > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:18:18 +0000
>>   > > > >
>>   > > > > Well, this sucks. Instead of telling me what I did wrong,
>>   first
>>   > > > > you people tell me to wait for an answer, and then you tell
>>   me to
>>   > > > > ignore the guy whose blocking me.
>>   > > > >
>>   > > > >> From: Matt Brown
>>   > > > >> Reply-To: Matt Brown ,English Wikipedia
>>   > > > >>
>>   > > > >> To: English Wikipedia
>>   > > > >> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Am I allowed to start a poll?
>>   > > > >> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:29:29 -0700
>>   > > > >>
>>   > > > >> Don't feed the troll. Ignore it.
>>   > > > >>
>>   > > > >> On 6/24/05, firstname lastname wrote:
>>   > > > >> > Hi, I started a new poll on the talk page for feces
>>   because
>>   > > > >> the old poll was
>>   > > > >> > invalid, and Mikkalai blocked me for trolling. Why is a
>>   new
>>   > > > >> poll considered
>>   > > > >> > trolling? I was trying to help settle the issue. I didn't
>>   use
>>   > > contentious
>>   > > > >> > language or anything, it was pretty straightforward. He
>>   > > > >> blocked me yesterday
>>   > > > >> > too for trolling but I thought it was a mistake, I still
>>   don't
>>   > > know what
>>   > > > >> > that was for.
>>   > > > >> >
>>   > > > >> > CW
>>   > > > >> >
>>   > > > >> >
>>   > > _________________________________________________________________
>>   > > > >> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>>   > > > >> >
>>   http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>>   > > > >> >
>>   > > > >> > _______________________________________________
>>   > > > >> > WikiEN-l mailing list
>>   > > > >> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>   > > > >> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>   > > > >> >
>>   > > > >> _______________________________________________
>>   > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>   > > > >> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>   > > > >> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>   > > > >
>>   > > > >
>>   _________________________________________________________________
>>   > > > > Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
>>   > > > > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>>   > > > >
>>   > > > > _______________________________________________
>>   > > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
>>   > > > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>   > > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>   > > >
>>   > > >
>>   _________________________________________________________________
>>   > > > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from
>>   > > > McAfee? Security.
>>   > > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>>   > > >
>>   > > > _______________________________________________
>>   > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
>>   > > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>   > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>   > >
>>   > > --
>>   > > ___________________________________________________________
>>   > > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
>>   > > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>>   > >
>>   > > _______________________________________________
>>   > > WikiEN-l mailing list
>>   > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>   > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>   >
>>   > _________________________________________________________________
>>   > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
>>   > it's FREE!
>>   > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>   >
>>   > _______________________________________________
>>   > WikiEN-l mailing list
>>   > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>   > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>--
>>___________________________________________________________
>>Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
>>http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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>
>_______________________________________________
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>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
That's true, but  in at least one area, articles which concern the
Israeli-Palestine conflict, it is not unlikely that one editor may be
repeatedly reverted by a group of POV editors. Perhaps other
instances exist.

Fred

On Jun 25, 2005, at 10:17 PM, JAY JG wrote:

>> From: Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com>
>>
>> I think we need better answers. I am familar w cases like this, and
>> where they end up. How about its a large POV lobby instead of a
>> single
>> user, and they are trying to POV an ancient and contentious topic,
>> chasing off any and all NPOV users who come along?
>>
>> Jack (Sam Spade)
>>
>
> Um, isn't that what every single POV editor claims when a large
> number of other editors reject his POV edits?
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] RFC

body:
Or simply outnumbered.

Fred

On Jun 25, 2005, at 10:20 PM, JAY JG wrote:

>> From: Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com>
>>
>> I have found that these "like minded editors" solicited by talk page,
>> email, IRC or whatever are the worst thing possible in every
>> situation. There is no surer way to enforce POV or enact mob
>> psychology.
>>
>
> An alternative view it that editors recruit other editors to give
> their opinions and gain consensus about an on-going conflict, using
> various means, including RfC, Talk: pages, etc.  And if you can't
> find anyone to support your view, whereas many editors support your
> opponents' view, then this may well be a sign that you are wrong.
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Copyright and Britannica Article List

body:
The problem with asking is that, in the words of Admiral Grace
Hopper, "it is easier to apologize than to get permission."

The problem with asking for permission in a situation like this is
that the person you are asking has absolutely no reason whatosever to
say "yes." What's in it for them? It's a foggy situation, there's no
obvious benefit to them to say "yes." Since you're _asking,_ that
means _you_ think that the thing being asked for is a) not already
yours, and b) of _some_ valuable.

Now, it's _not_ a routine request. It's not Stephen King's publisher
asking to quote song lyrics or whatever is the sort of thing that
permissions departments handle. Since it's an unusual situation,
they're not going to be absolutely sure what would be the
consequences of saying "yes."

And anyone is going to realize that Wikipedia and the EB are
_rivals_. Maybe not bitter rivals, but probably not even friendly
rivals.

And it's not clear how much is being given away. If I were a midlevel
manager in the permissions department at EB and fearful or hostile of
the GFDL, I'd probably say to myself "Do I know, 100% for sure, that
giving permission for this might not create a legal avalanche of
unintended consequences in which WIkipedia could claim that the
permission extended to the entire content of EB? Because if I'm only
99.999% sure of that, I'm not going to say 'yes.'"

There are no potential bad consequences of saying "no."

It's like a baseball runner asking the pitcher, "My I have your
permission to try to steal a base?" What's the pitcher going to say?

And I think the situation is in every possible way worse if you ask
for permission in writing, get told "no" in writing, and do it
anyway. It is really unwise to ask for permission unless you're ready
to be bound by the answer. In this case, that means getting consensus
that Wikipedia is ready to be bound by the answer.

--
Jean is going to be bicycling 83 miles in the Pan Mass Challenge in
August, raising money for cancer research. Her profile is at http://
www.pmc.org/mypmc/profiles.asp?Section=story&eGiftID=JS0417


body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>I will say it again: "Before whinging to us about that, can you at
>least actually try to use your dialect on nds.wiki to prove to us that
>it really doesn't work?"
>
>Mark
>
>
>
There is two people from NDS both admins there supporting the creation
of NDS-NL they are:
Slomox and HeikoEvermann
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:HeikoEvermann&action=edit>.
They are native speakers of the dialects involved. You are most
definately not. Read their arguments. Apart from that there is a minimum
of 5 for and if you count Slomox 6.

You really want me to hustle up more support? I can do that if you want.
It says 5 in support. Those are the rules. May I also point out that
nl.wikipedia is doing quite well so is li.wikipedia and fy.wikipedia. So
a wikipedia in another language in the Netherlands area might just do
very well.

And on another point Papiamentu and Surinamese have also reached support
of more than 5 people.

Here are the arguments in favour of NDS-NL by native speakers (Which
Node most obviously is not)

Lowlands-l does not help here. After some discussions we have decided to
use the German based spelling according to SASS for the nds wikipedia.
The spelling proposed by Lowlands-l is no option for us. And I can
understand very well, that the dutch based spelling and our spelling do
not match. In addition to that we have another problem: when Low Saxon
lacks a word, we (on the German side of the border) have the tendency to
borrow a German word, and on the other side of the border they would
certainly prefer to borrow a dutch word. The language fell apart a long
time ago. In fact most people in Germany do not even know that there is
a Low Saxon language on the other side of the border. When I think about
the two different versions of the Norse wikipedia that are made for one
single country and when I think about the Aromunian wikipedia, I think
that having a separate wikipeda for nds-nl is the best option.
HeikoEvermann
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:HeikoEvermann&action=edit>
11:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For what shall we try first? I looked for a comparison in English
language and I would say, that nds-de and nds-nl are as far apart in
pronounciation and in spelling as modern English and the 1400 example of
middle English in en:Middle English
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English> (this isn't the best
comparison because one is a parallel development and the other serial,
but the best example I found). If it were possible I really would like
and want *one* Wikipedia for both. But it would be very hard to
understand. Sure, if there would be a common orthography neither based
singly on German nor on Dutch, this would be easier, but there is no
such common orthography that is in broader use. The actual reality is,
that we need two Wikipedias. --Slomox
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Slomox> 16:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] Recording an accurate IP number for an NTL user

body:
A few NTL users are proving as painful as AOL has hitherto been. NTL puts
*everyone* behind huge regional proxy servers, 100k+ users all showing the
same IP. This creates endless fun with blocks, as you can imagine.

However, it appears the proxy does send the user's real IP ... encoded. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ANI#Please_do_not_block_User:62.253.96.42_.28NTL_proxy.29
and the mailing list post linked from it,
http://lists.horde.org/archives/imp/Week-of-Mon-20030106/028895.html
and the official NTL proxy list with characteristics,
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adf/ntlproxies.html

It would involve coding for a special case, but it's a special case of the
largest cable ISP and second largest overall broadband ISP in the UK ...

- d.


body:
Angela (beesley at gmail.com) [050626 09:41]:
> On 26/06/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:

> > A few NTL users are proving as painful as AOL has hitherto been. NTL puts
> > *everyone* behind huge regional proxy servers, 100k+ users all showing the
> > same IP. This creates endless fun with blocks, as you can imagine.

> It's also worth noting that NTL proxies are semi-open. When I was on
> NTL, I could make use of any other NTL proxy, not only the 4 allocated
> to my town. I'm guessing this is the case for all NTL users.

This is the case. It's not *widely* known, but NTL users get to hear about
it 'cos NTL's proxies, being NTL, are crap. So any NTL user could appear to
be coming from anywhere in the UK.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Requests for adminship reform

body:
Angela (beesley at gmail.com) [050626 09:45]:

> Desysoppings usually appear in the bureaucrat log on meta, since this
> is where the steward interface is, and only stewards, not bureaucrats,
> can desysop users. This is at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log/rights
> However, in ?var's case, he was desysopped by a developer, not a
> steward, presumably because it was an emergency and no stewards were
> on IRC at the time.

Yep. What happened was, Aevar's deletions were noticed, and the pattern was
really weird, so someone popped onto #wikimedia-tech, and Tim deopped him
pending finding out what was going on. Aevar showed up again a coupla days
later, somewhat bemused at everyone's worry. Ops back. No ongoing problem.

- d.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Bjarte Sørensen

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Colourblindness

body:
Dear all,

I thought I could help cast some light on this for those interested,
both from a medical point of view and from a colour blind person's
view.

There are many types of colour blindness. The eye as you probably know
have two different light perceiving cells, the rod cells and the cone
cells. The rods are very light sensitive but can only detect light in
a certain frequency range (peak at 505 nm), and it is interpreted in
our brain as shades of grey. The less light sensitive cone cells are
what we use for our daily colour perception. There are normally three
types of cone cells, with different sensitivities to different
wavelengths, viz. 445 nm (blue, greek prefix trit-), 535 nm (~green,
deuter-), and 570 nm (~red, prot-). Combined, these can produce an
image interpreted by our brain as the different colours we know.

In colour blindness, people have either a defect or a
disproportionally low number of one of the cones (-anomaly) or they
have a complete (functional or real) absence of one of the cones
(-anopia). In order of frequency the types of colour blindness are
rougly deuteranomaly (~6% of males), protanomaly, deuteranopia and
protanopia (each ~1%) and tritanomaly and tritanopia (both very rare).
Very few people have no colour vision at all. The common types of
colour blindness are inherited on the X-chromosomes which means that
predominantly men are affected, but about 1% of colour blind are still
women. This happens when women inherit two affected X-chromosomes.

Because the green and red colour blind (deuter- and
protanomalous/-anopic) have defects in a similar frequency range (535
vs 570 nm), the clinical effects are similar, although they may be
leaning towards problems in either green or red perception,
respectively. In addition, this group will in some circumstances have
difficulties discerning the two colours when mixed.

Myself, I am deuteranomalous. When people ask, I usually describe the
green that I see as "less green" or "a greyer shade of green", but I
wouldn't really know as I've never known any different. Driving at
night, I can easily tell a red light, but I may sometimes confuse a
green light with a white light, thinking it is an approaching car or a
street light. So I take extra care when driving in the city, looking
at the shape of the light when in doubt and the context. The
difficulty in perceiving colour applies especially if we're talking
about thin lines or writing. I've been known to be writing with a
green pen thinking it was a weak black pen.

I also have problems distinguishing red and green when mixed, such as
green writing on red background or vice versa, or, as a kid, picking
strawberries :)

In conclusion, the links as they are now on Wikipedia are as good as
they can be for me personally as a deuteranomalous person. I can, like
most people, easily tell what's blue, and personally I perceive red
quite well, and have no problem seeing what's purple. However, there
may be people who have a less intense perception of the red. They
would still, however, be able to distinguish it from blue, and
probably even from purple.

On 26/06/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The links are not blue and red.
>
> The non visited links are blue.
> The visited links are purple blue.
>
> The stubs are purple red.
> The empty are red.

Stubs are purple red? I haven't noticed :D Can you give me a link to a
page which contain examples of all these four coloured links?

> Brion Vibber a ?crit:
> > Our links are blue and red. Can you confirm that these really are
> > indistinguishable to someone with red-green colorblindness?
> >
> > I would really like to know if this is based on actual experience (eg,
> > you are colorblind or a colorblind person has reported to you that they
> > are in fact not distinguishable) or if it's speculation. Without hard
> > data it's going to be very difficult to just come up with a change.
> >

So based on what I said above, I think the current colour coding is
actually if anything optimised for the majority of colour blind
people, as long as we don't also throw in a green link somewhere.

Cheers,

Bjarte S?rensen
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:BjarteSorensen


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Colourblindness


subject: [Wikitech-l] Announcement: A special page to rename users

body:
I've made a special page to rename users, you can find it in
extensions/Renameuser/SpecialRenameuser.php, it only works with the
1.5 schema.

Run it at your own risk;)


body:
 > Re Papiamentu and Sranan Tongo (NOT "Surinamese")
Sranan means Surinamese
Tongo means Tongue

Surinamese is a perfectly acceptable name to use for the language in
English. A name any Sranan speaker would agree to. As they would agree
to the name of Surinaams in Dutch.

And yes remember the earlier conversation. I lived in the country and
learnt the lingo. It is rusty I admit though.

>gotten plenty of support votes but have any native speakers showed up
>yet?
>
<skip>

>these Wikipedias. If they had, they would've been created with
>Cebuano, Kapampangan, Scots, and V?ro.
>
>
>
Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.

Waerth/Walter


body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Please read what I wrote, and respond to that, instead of just telling
>me over and over that my opinion doesn't count.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
Your opinion does count. But a littlebit less than that of 2 native
speakers who are actually admins off the "affected" wikipedia in question.

Waerth/Walter


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] The reason for not too many definitions on European
	wiktionaries

body:
This question came into mind this morning since lately there were some
discussions on this theme on the list (also on the wikipedia list
really) - and there is quite an obvious reason. Instead of writing it
only here in the list I wrote in on my blog as it is read by also other
comunities.

If you would like to know what I wrote, just klick here:

http://sabinecretella.blogspot.com/

I am also adding the same text on my portal http://www.wesolveitnet.com

Ciao, Sabine

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Sj

subject: [Wikipedia-l] World66

body:
Yes, and they are coming to Wikimania.  They would love to talk about
what they are doing; even sent a very-late abstract submission.

SJ

On 6/26/05, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> http://www.world66.com/northamerica/mexico
>
> Honestly, when I saw "[edit this]", I thought it was Yet Another Illegal
> Mirror, but they actually seem to have gathered their own contents,
> under cc-by-sa-1.0
>
> I see competition to WikiTravel...
>
> Magnus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>

--
+sj+
 _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]


from_name: Filzstift

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Announcement - Wikipedia SQL Query Tool
	www.wikisign.org

body:
The problem for not adding the english wikipedia is because it is too
big for my harddisk....

2005/6/26, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>:
> Filzstift wrote:
> >
> > http://www.wikisign.org
> >
> > (it would be also super if the interface could be translated into your
> > language: http://www.wikisign.org/helptranslate.php)
>
> I would have volunteered to fix the awful English, but since you're
> explicitly not offering to add the English Wikipedia contents to the
> facility, I guess there's nothing in it for me.
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
www.wikisign.org - SQL-Abfragen durchf?hren


body:
Giuseppe DAngelo wrote:

>I confess I know only the barest of details regarding the various idioms spoken along the Dutch/German border.  But I have always thought that the people that live either side of that border understood each other far better than say a speaker of "hollands"  and say "twents" of "gelders-overijssels".  I  therefore agree that political borders, often nothing more than quirks of history, cannot be viewed as representing linguistic borders.  That's my two bob's worth.
>pippu d'angelo, canberra
>
>
>
>
>
Hello Pippu the area it is spoken ranges a lot wider area than just the
border areas. Yes in the border areas they will be able to understand
eachother. It is that the dialects further from that area get a wider
and wider gap. Also the admin of the Wikipedia ... nds ... indicated
they are using a common spelling which is based on the German language
and german versions of that dialect. He together with another admin from
nds are supporting the request. both are native speakers both note this
is problem.

Also the language is a recognized language in the Netherlands.

Waerth/Walter


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of ... the surinamese thread

body:
>No, it is NOT an acceptable name to use because other languages are
>also spoken widely in Surinam such as
>
 >Saramaccan,
Is an inland language not commonly used outside the jungle areas that
Saramaccaners live in. Not a nationally widely spoken language

 >Aukan,
Aucaners same situation as Saramacaners.

 >Guyanese,
Definately not spoken in most of Surinam and as the name suggest it is
not a Surinamese language.

>Javanese,
>
Only spoken by people of Indonesian background and as the name suggest
it is not a Surinamese language.

>Chinese,
>
Only spoken by people of  Chinese background and as the name suggest it
is not a Surinamese language.

>and Native American languages.
>
There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the
Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most
important  ethniticities.

>These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan.
>
No they are not. Sranan is what binds most of the population together
with Dutch .... so what is next you are going to call  Moroccan a Dutch
language because people in the Netherlands speak Moroccan? Or Dutch a
Thai language because there are Dutch people in Thailand? All of these
languages are not Surinamese. They happen to be spoken in the country of
Surinam yes. There is but one Surinamese and that is Sranan Tongo.

>So while "Sranan" does indeed mean "Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
>
>
Well I am not a native Oxford-English or American-English or whatever
English speaker but I still have my doubts about that.

>> <>Well, you're one person, and "rusty I admit though" is not comforting
>> at all. And what about Papiamento??
>
How comforting is it for me to see you requesting many languages you
never spoke or heard of? If we go in that road of argumenting. My 4
years in Surinam are a lot more comforting. And no I do not speak
Papiamentu.

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It sometimes seems like it.
>>
>>
>
>You know very well it isn't me.
>
Precisely but your reactions on this list and elsewhere always show that
you feel you should be the one who is deciding. 6 people support NDS-NL
among which 2 native speakers. And you oppose and because you oppose you
feel you can obstruct the whole progress because your "demands" weren't
met. Frankly I am getting a littlebit tired of your "every language has
to go by me" attitude. You are doing lots of good work in the
languagefield. But destroying it by your behaviour.

>It's the decision of the developers, ultimately, although if a board member or somebody else high up in the organisational structure decides it should be created, the developer will usually create it for them.
>
>
So maybe I should go to a board member instead of discussing with you
here! Good alternative indeed. Thanks for your understanding.

Waerth/Walter


body:
Hi,

Ja precies, helemaal mee eens Wouter! (Het enigste wat niet klopt is
"zij"; waarom denkt iedereen dat ik 'Servien' een vrouwennaam is haha!)

But anyway... if anyone would like to check out the differences please
see: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/H??ftsiet and
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker:Servien/Heufdbladsyde, the same site
as the German-Low Saxon one, just in a different dialect and some changed
etc.

Regards,
Servien Ilaino (m.)

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Wouter Steenbeek"
  To: node.ue at gmail.com, wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
  Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon
  (nds-nl)
  Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:06:36 +0200

  >
  > > As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum.
  > All of the continental West Germanic language variants form a
  > dialect continuum, with the possible exception of the Frisian
  > tongues.
  > > Stellingwarfs and Middel-pommersch are surely not mutually
  > > intelligible, but Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
  > Yes, so are Berlinic and High German. And East-Veluws and Dutch.
  > But Grunnegers and Oostfreesk are not or barely mutually
  > intelligible when written down, because of the different spellings.
  >
  > > You are foolishly dividing Platt by nations. This is illogical.
  If we
  > > had an Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely
  > > understand it and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the
  > > Netherlands and Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany.
  >
  > "Foolishly"... Mr. I-owe-all-the-world's-languages'-wisdom.... May
  > I point at the difference in spelling once more? And don't you
  > think that the bulk of the Dutch Low-Saxon dialects share some
  > features most German dialects don't?
  > > The problem of dialect continuum is a very difficult one.
  > Yes, so it can't be solved by one such disregarding message.
  > > HOWEVER, given the community reaction to a request for a
  Baseldytsch
  > > Wikipedia, I think the same is logical for a request for a "Dutch
  Low
  > > Saxon" Wikipedia
  > Is it? Is Servien requesting a Wikipedia for just one town, or
  > region? No, she obviously realises that, though the speaking
  > communities hardly link dialects on any higher level than their own
  > region (they will never say they speak Low Saxon, but always either
  > the dialect of their own village or region, Twents, Sallands,
  > Drents etc.), we should group some of them together. This is very
  > different from what the proposer of the Baseldytsch Wikipedia did:
  > he simply said: "I have no affinity with the other Alemannic
  > dialects, so I want to open one for my dialect only".
  > > -- your language may be different to whatever degree
  > > than what many people on X Wikipedia use, but there is no rule
  > > forbidding its use. There is no rule against writing pages and
  pages
  > > and pages of content on nds.wiki in Stellingwarfs or Achterhooks.
  When
  > > I suggested doing this, I got a cold response that Dutch Low
  Saxon and
  > > German Low Saxon aren't mutually intelligible. Before whinging to
  us
  > > about that, can you at least actually try to use your dialect on
  > > nds.wiki to prove to us that it really doesn't work?
  > Some users of nds: made clear that they only use one spelling: the
  > Sass one. Dutch Low Saxon dialects are /never/ written in German
  > spellings, except with some German-initiated projects.
  >
  > > Mark
  > >
  > Imo, the combined facts of mutual confusion in both speach and
  > spelling makes this idea a valuable one.
  >
  > Wouter
  >
  > _________________________________________________________________
  > Nooit ongewenste berichten ontvangen: gebruik MSN Messenger
  > http://messenger.msn.nl/
  >
  > _______________________________________________
  > Wikipedia-l mailing list
  > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
  > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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from_name: JAY JG

body:
In articles which concern the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, don't most edits
consist of POV editors from both sides repeatedly reverting each other? ;-)

Jay.

>From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net>
>
>That's true, but  in at least one area, articles which concern the
>Israeli-Palestine conflict, it is not unlikely that one editor may be
>repeatedly reverted by a group of POV editors. Perhaps other  instances
>exist.
>
>Fred
>
>
>On Jun 25, 2005, at 10:17 PM, JAY JG wrote:
>
>>>From: Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>I think we need better answers. I am familar w cases like this, and
>>>where they end up. How about its a large POV lobby instead of a  single
>>>user, and they are trying to POV an ancient and contentious topic,
>>>chasing off any and all NPOV users who come along?
>>>
>>>Jack (Sam Spade)
>>>
>>
>>Um, isn't that what every single POV editor claims when a large  number of
>>other editors reject his POV edits?
>>
>>Jay.
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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from_name: Wytukaze

subject: [Wiktionary-l] hello

body:
On 6/25/05, James R. Johnson <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
>             I'm new to this list, so I hope I'll be able to contribute.  I
> work mainly on the Anglo-Saxon wiktionary, which now has over 1000 entries!
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> James
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>

Hello James, welcome to the list. I'm sure you'll have plenty to contribute.

Congratulations on achieving that milestone! I've not worked on the
Eald Englisc one, though I do love the language. I spend almost all my
time on the English Wiktionary, though I have spent a small amount of
time on both the Latin Victionarium and the Tok Pisin Wikseneri. I
hope to one day have enough time to register an account on a number of
Wiktionaries, but that will have to come later. :)

Now, I've rambled quite enough about my own affairs, so welcome again,
and do make yourself at home.

Wytukaze


subject:
[Wiktionary-l] The reason for not too many definitions on
	European wiktionaries

body:
On 6/26/05, Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> This question came into mind this morning since lately there were some
> discussions on this theme on the list (also on the wikipedia list
> really) - and there is quite an obvious reason. Instead of writing it
> only here in the list I wrote in on my blog as it is read by also other
> comunities.
>
> If you would like to know what I wrote, just klick here:
>
> http://sabinecretella.blogspot.com/
>
> I am also adding the same text on my portal http://www.wesolveitnet.com
>
> Ciao, Sabine
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
> http://mail.yahoo.it
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>

Buongiorno,

I hope it's okay if I reply here. You raise some good points, in
particular the matter of the difference in status (or whatever)
between English and the European languages. Of course, it does work
both ways. Should I want to learn another language, it is increasingly
hard to do so, what with living in a culture that doesn't see the
presence of many other languages and where everyone speaks your native
one as well as you do anyway. I've spent a lot of my life so far
living in places other than my home now, and as such, I have an
affinity for other languages, and luckily, have had the chance to
learn a couple (though not to the standard that one would hope for,
naturally).

That aside, you are indeed correct that many of us from the English
Wiktionary undervalue the other parts of our projects. Personally, I
think that the definitions are a key part of a dictionary, as opposed
to a translationary, but that is not to say that translations aren't
of nigh-equal importance in a project such as ours. Those of us who
inhabit the IRC channel often collaborate on different areas of our
expertise, gathering translations, definitions, synonyms,
pronunciations (both audio and transcribed), etymologies and a whole
host of other things besides. Currently we only collaborate on the
English Wiktionary, but should someone want us to help on another
language Wiktionary, I am sure we wouldn't hesitate to muddle in
(though it would likely help in many cases if a native speaker did all
the actual writing for us ;)).

I'm not entirely sure what the point of my reply is now. So, for now, good day.

Wytukaze


from_name: Henry Kissinger

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