from_name: Ivo Köthnig

subject: [Wikitech-l] wrong timestamps

body:
Hi,

again I analysed the actual old-table from the german wp. I know found
no inconsitencies with the timestamps there. But in the cur-table the
following inconsistencies appear (these are exactly the same in the
cur-table from 20040313 and from 20040320). May someone can fix this...

-- Ivo K?thnig

ID         : the ID of the article
TS         : the timestamp
inv-TS     : the inverse timestamp as it apears int the database
inv(inv-TS): the inversion of the inverse timestamps which should be the
             same as TS but does not have this property
Touched    : timestamp of last touch?!

  ID       TS            inv-TS        inv(inv-TS)     Touched
  9690 20040205162458 79979075824895 20020924175104 20040205162458
 10133 20040117225133 79979071868399 20020928131600 20040117230414
 10771 20040217154352 79978993874855 20021006125144 20040217154352
 11673 20040112202257 79978973876398 20021026123601 20040112202257
 11861 20031215231821 79978970825656 20021029174343 20031215231821
 16519 20040124122509 79969890815272 20030109184727 20040124122509
 18115 20040222190045 79969876899549 20030123100450 20040222190045
 20916 20040227204223 79969789897342 20030210102657 20040227204223
 21549 20040128183118 79969784818379 20030215181620 20040128183118
 21862 20040213160425 79969780878391 20030219121608 20040213160425
 22267 20031217094940 79969776857895 20030223142104 20031217094940
 22947 20040131171929 79969771858287 20030228141712 20040131171929
 24267 20040228221146 79969684924884 20030315075115 20040228221146
 25089 20031211031553 79969676854452 20030323145547 20031211031553
 26860 20031223174853 79969588768857 20030411231142 20031223174853
 27148 20031222215336 79969585804997 20030414195002 20031222215336
 27490 20031213141210 79969581825144 20030418174855 20031213141210
 28310 20040126155110 79969574884398 20030425115601 20040126155110
 29741 20040104180550 79969493886996 20030506113003 20040104180550
 29979 20031221190341 79969491917877 20030508082122 20031221190341
 30229 20031215043433 79969490786070 20030509213929 20031215043433
 30996 20031219235622 79969486827682 20030513172317 20031219235622
 31382 20031208184550 79969484844687 20030515155312 20031208184550
 31383 20031208190326 79969484844581 20030515155418 20031208190326
 32945 20040112230453 79969478816763 20030521183236 20040112230453
 33399 20040103231003 79969476878166 20030523121833 20040103231003
 34269 20040112190355 79969472914954 20030527085045 20040112190355
 36782 20040129104650 79969393839556 20030606160443 20040129104650
 36948 20031217020511 79969392844365 20030607155634 20031217020511
 37648 20040116040535 79969389847473 20030610152526 20040116040535
 37886 20040205022002 79969388848353 20030611151646 20040205022002
 38107 20040207190856 79969387856168 20030612143831 20040207190856
 38108 20040207190857 79969387856150 20030612143849 20040207190857
 38554 20040202033624 79969385806874 20030614193125 20040202033624
 38796 20031221151754 79969383996868 20030616003131 20031221151754
 38936 20040131114847 79969383817090 20030616182909 20040131114847
 39603 20040216193323 79969380857575 20030619142424 20040216193323
 39961 20040129121948 79969378915359 20030621084640 20040129121948
 41892 20040207222904 79969297855641 20030702144358 20040207222904
 42138 20031218234207 79969296817080 20030703182919 20031218234207
 42427 20031219234727 79969295776774 20030704223225 20031219234727
 43234 20040227131028 79969292774872 20030707225127 20040227131028
 43306 20040120161048 79969291886940 20030708113059 20040120161048
 43515 20031221210452 79969290896555 20030709103444 20031221210452
 43516 20031221210453 79969290896555 20030709103444 20031221210453
 44042 20040222130224 79969289776850 20030710223149 20040222130224
 44591 20031224004218 79969286999478 20030713000521 20031224004218
 46745 20040205191351 79969276867666 20030723132333 20040205191351
 46836 20040124155542 79969275996682 20030724003317 20040124155542
 48150 20040221172518 79969269778485 20030730221514 20040221172518
 48151 20040221172521 79969269778484 20030730221515 20040221172521
 48770 20031220184326 79969196877444 20030803122555 20031220184326
 50566 20031212170343 79969188859275 20030811140724 20031212170343
 51968 20040225142418 79969183817597 20030816182402 20040225142418
 53470 20031210120502 79969176916382 20030823083617 20031210120502
 53475 20031210120440 79969176915967 20030823084032 20031210120440
 54410 20040228215848 79969172856651 20030827143348 20040228215848
 54411 20040228215850 79969172856595 20030827143404 20040228215850
 54457 20040204201901 79969172828297 20030827171702 20040226094431
 55041 20040203112652 79969169779466 20030830220533 20040203112652
 55486 20040225103737 79969097904561 20030902095438 20040225103737
 56171 20040227021046 79969094807645 20030905192354 20040227021046
 56748 20040224203321 79969091939846 20030908060153 20040224203321
 60503 20040130152820 79969077896966 20030922103033 20040130152820
 61074 20040214230647 79969075855252 20030924144747 20040214230647
 62001 20031223230213 79969071939291 20030928060708 20031223230213
 64140 20040218122626 79968997816443 20031002183556 20040218122626
 64227 20040103133533 79968996904485 20031003095514 20040103133533
 66858 20040207013815 79968989909459 20031010090540 20040207013815
 72169 20031207114721 79968971848596 20031028151403 20031207114721
 72785 20040204164925 79968968988150 20031031011849 20040204164925
 73743 20031207114722 79968895859878 20031104140121 20031207114722
 74031 20040225074748 79968894856992 20031105143007 20040225074748
 74510 20040203070336 79968893788373 20031106211626 20040203070336
 75077 20040302163432 79968891809780 20031108190219 20040302163432
 75170 20040218155810 79968890998685 20031109001314 20040218155810
 75360 20040211005127 79968890825674 20031109174325 20040211005127
 75940 20040111150650 79968888824180 20031111175819 20040111150650
 75941 20040111150652 79968888824177 20031111175822 20040111150652
 76100 20040213213901 79968887899578 20031112100421 20040213213901
 76206 20040229205745 79968887837972 20031112162027 20040229205745
 77474 20031221120316 79968883866399 20031116133600 20031221120316
 79293 20040116153523 79968878999993 20031121000006 20040116153523
 79557 20031206213611 79968878826474 20031121173525 20031206221557
 79558 20031206213611 79968878826473 20031121173526 20031206221557
 80269 20040201012855 79968876777749 20031123222250 20040201012855
 80310 20040224034902 79968875996467 20031124003532 20040224034902
 80838 20040225151542 79968874817860 20031125182139 20040225151542
 81064 20040106135913 79968873858868 20031126141131 20040106135913
 81146 20040226214515 79968873797947 20031126202052 20040226214515
 81159 20031208211048 79968873789291 20031126210708 20031208211048
 81973 20031208220000 79968870898598 20031129101401 20031208220000
 83245 20040203112655 79968797774749 20031202225250 20040203112655
 84568 20040207223739 79968794914790 20031205085209 20040207223739
 84861 20031206122610 79968793886980 20031206113019 20031206122610
 85705 20031220190018 79968791896959 20031208103040 20031220190018
 85814 20031224113857 79968791847982 20031208152017 20031224113857
 86021 20031209190529 79968790996750 20031209003249 20031209190529
 86523 20040125021428 79968790789853 20031209210146 20040125021428
 86541 20040125022017 79968790787451 20031209212548 20040125022017
 86736 20040224202949 79968789914365 20031210085634 20040224202949
 88147 20040216164254 79968786864364 20031213135635 20040216164254
 88199 20031221212844 79968786849678 20031213150321 20031221212844
 88391 20031223131959 79968786786880 20031213213119 20031223131959
 88392 20031223131959 79968786786880 20031213213119 20031223131959
 88396 20031223131927 79968786786283 20031213213716 20031223131927
 88513 20031214091341 79968785908959 20031214091040 20031214091341
 88834 20031214221140 79968785804380 20031214195619 20031214221140
 88956 20031218135326 79968784974072 20031215025927 20031218135326
 89084 20031222104058 79968784884583 20031215115416 20031222104058
 89089 20031215134716 79968784884345 20031215115654 20031215134716
 89098 20031215173722 79968784878653 20031215121346 20031215173722
 89193 20031217211700 79968784846563 20031215153436 20031217211700
 89194 20031217211700 79968784846562 20031215153437 20031217211700
 89201 20031215224420 79968784844947 20031215155052 20031215224420
 90023 20040130105729 79968782885866 20031217114133 20040130105729
 90073 20040102131157 79968782855462 20031217144537 20040102131157
 91255 20031222070810 79968779864370 20031220135629 20031222070810
 91310 20040212142213 79968779847768 20031220152231 20040212142213
 91619 20031221151047 79968778878644 20031221121355 20031221151047
 91621 20031221151114 79968778878388 20031221121611 20031221151114
 92515 20031223215018 79968776787140 20031223212859 20031223215018
 92798 20031226203025 79968774925873 20031225074126 20031226203025
 92945 20031227115012 79968772885160 20031227114839 20031227115012
 93593 20040226120953 79959898905849 20040101094150 20040226120953
 93594 20040226121002 79959898905848 20040101094151 20040226121002
 94135 20040111191217 79959897797863 20040102202136 20040111191217
 94238 20040222215515 79959896969253 20040103030746 20040222215515
 94279 20040103105912 79959896896694 20040103103305 20040103105912
 95273 20040203170746 79959894884956 20040105115043 20040203170746
 95751 20040225002710 79959893885173 20040106114826 20040225002710
 96185 20040111144732 79959892854283 20040107145716 20040111144732
 97241 20040212171517 79959889798357 20040110201642 20040212171517
 97243 20040212171519 79959889798340 20040110201659 20040212171519
 97730 20040112075313 79959888788874 20040111211125 20040112075313
 97796 20040126155113 79959887987782 20040112012217 20040126155113
 98181 20040206105600 79959887836656 20040112163343 20040206105600
 98363 20040201001850 79959887775780 20040112224219 20040201001850
100311 20040118162125 79959881934280 20040118065719 20040118162125
101056 20040124213837 79959879865640 20040120134359 20040124213837
101060 20040120135423 79959879864743 20040120135256 20040120135423
101074 20040120142637 79959879857458 20040120142541 20040120142637
101106 20040120165336 79959879838878 20040120161121 20040120165336
101107 20040120165337 79959879838877 20040120161122 20040120165337
101127 20040120171830 79959879828255 20040120171744 20040120171830
101128 20040120171831 79959879828255 20040120171744 20040120171831
101131 20040120172313 79959879827751 20040120172248 20040120172313
101135 20040120173354 79959879826670 20040120173329 20040120173354
101142 20040120174547 79959879825485 20040120174514 20040120174547
101567 20040122063125 79959878838293 20040121161706 20040122063125
101568 20040208214423 79959878837961 20040121162038 20040208214423
102150 20040122205704 79959877806057 20040122193942 20040122205704
102436 20040203100443 79959875907581 20040124092418 20040203100443
102560 20040124171218 79959875828891 20040124171108 20040124171218
102687 20040125021429 79959874995878 20040125004121 20040125021429
103383 20040126154959 79959873845093 20040126154906 20040126154959
103384 20040126155000 79959873845089 20040126154910 20040126155000
103817 20040127210942 79959872789266 20040127210733 20040127210942
103915 20040129161402 79959871947862 20040128052137 20040129161402
104173 20040128183929 79959871816976 20040128183023 20040128184339
104754 20040204213534 79959869898784 20040130101215 20040204213534
104814 20040130121245 79959869884068 20040130115931 20040130121245
105959 20040201215321 79959798786572 20040201213427 20040201215321
105961 20040201215321 79959798786546 20040201213453 20040201215321
106018 20040303203726 79959797996968 20040202003031 20040303203726
106019 20040303203834 79959797996863 20040202003136 20040303203834
107033 20040204104603 79959796765351 20040203234648 20040204104603
107673 20040206104228 79959794987899 20040205012100 20040206104228
108293 20040205225439 79959794776347 20040205223652 20040205225439
108294 20040205225439 79959794776344 20040205223655 20040205225439
108488 20040206123732 79959793879062 20040206120937 20040206123732
108698 20040208164007 79959793818187 20040206181812 20040208164007
108936 20040207112812 79959792887469 20040207112530 20040207112812
109258 20040209110814 79959792767343 20040207232656 20040209110814
109314 20040220140112 79959791994270 20040208005729 20040220140112
109556 20040208121738 79959791886577 20040208113422 20040208121738
109563 20040209205645 79959791885257 20040208114742 20040209205645
109570 20040223122139 79959791884355 20040208115644 20040223122139
109949 20040209104747 79959790998693 20040209001306 20040209104747
110699 20040210195340 79959789838776 20040210161223 20040210195340
110914 20040211130502 79959788995878 20040211004121 20040211130502
110915 20040211130503 79959788995878 20040211004121 20040211130503
111110 20040225110717 79959788867591 20040211132408 20040225110717
111518 20040212214112 79959787849496 20040212150503 20040212214112
111766 20040229024030 79959787779682 20040212220317 20040229024030
111881 20040301160038 79959786909389 20040213090610 20040301160038
111882 20040301160040 79959786909386 20040213090613 20040301160040
112148 20040213213903 79959786805071 20040213194928 20040213213903
112215 20040214133414 79959786775865 20040213224134 20040214133414
113762 20040216172154 79959783828551 20040216171448 20040216172154
114559 20040217221242 79959782779281 20040217220718 20040217221242
115187 20040219001241 79959780999695 20040219000304 20040219001241
115793 20040220093232 79959779917149 20040220082850 20040220093232
116222 20040302145222 79959779798854 20040220201145 20040302145222
116426 20040221102244 79959778898667 20040221101332 20040221102244
116598 20040225140309 79959778838168 20040221161831 20040225140309
116614 20040221163915 79959778836551 20040221163448 20040221163915
117061 20040222094030 79959777906151 20040222093848 20040222094030
117066 20040222095044 79959777905054 20040222094945 20040222095044
117070 20040222095924 79959777904146 20040222095853 20040222095924
117073 20040222100218 79959777899854 20040222100145 20040222100218
117075 20040222100951 79959777899084 20040222100915 20040222100951
117079 20040222102522 79959777897646 20040222102353 20040222102522
117081 20040222103020 79959777897049 20040222102950 20040222103020
117083 20040222103401 79959777896666 20040222103333 20040222103401
117376 20040222180755 79959777819278 20040222180721 20040222180755
117379 20040222181115 79959777818951 20040222181048 20040222181115
117382 20040223173029 79959777818483 20040222181516 20040223173029
117383 20040222181830 79959777818198 20040222181801 20040222181830
117385 20040222182116 79959777817963 20040222182036 20040222182116
117388 20040222182430 79959777817645 20040222182354 20040222182430
117396 20040222183013 79959777817096 20040222182903 20040222183013
117401 20040222183539 79959777816491 20040222183508 20040222183539
117408 20040222184259 79959777815770 20040222184229 20040222184259
117416 20040222185133 79959777814976 20040222185023 20040222185133
117543 20040222215220 79959777784851 20040222215148 20040222215220
117981 20040223172832 79959776846195 20040223153804 20040223172832
117986 20040223154121 79959776845944 20040223154055 20040223154121
117993 20040223154449 79959776845577 20040223154422 20040223154449
117995 20040223154737 79959776845295 20040223154704 20040223154737
117997 20040223154951 79959776845076 20040223154923 20040223154951
118003 20040223155200 79959776844870 20040223155129 20040223155200
118009 20040223160603 79959776839483 20040223160516 20040223160603
118015 20040223161239 79959776838787 20040223161212 20040223161239
118020 20040223162331 79959776837783 20040223162216 20040223162331
118152 20040301195820 79959776798962 20040223201037 20040301195820
119150 20040224233425 79959775794744 20040224205255 20040224233425
119441 20040225080948 79959774919168 20040225080831 20040225080948
119460 20040225130121 79959774914946 20040225085053 20040225130121
119930 20040225161239 79959774838870 20040225161129 20040225161239
121299 20040226182223 79959773817865 20040226182134 20040226182223
121395 20040226194451 79959773805673 20040226194326 20040226194451
121522 20040227000134 79959773789577 20040226210422 20040227000134
121525 20040226235939 79959773789483 20040226210516 20040226235939
121594 20040227040715 79959773778697 20040226221302 20040227040715
121734 20040303144056 79959772998580 20040227001419 20040303144056
121798 20040227040714 79959772959373 20040227040626 20040227040714
122548 20040228002027 79959772776385 20040227223614 20040228002027
123635 20040229141606 79959770899795 20040229100204 20040229141606
123636 20040229141610 79959770899794 20040229100205 20040229141610
124014 20040229184839 79959770827684 20040229172315 20040229184839
124015 20040229184900 79959770827665 20040229172334 20040229184900
125109 20040301200440 79959698806646 20040301193353 20040301200440
125802 20040302094011 79959697914480 20040302085519 20040302094011
125954 20040302103432 79959697896940 20040302103059 20040302103432
127007 20040302201455 79959697798671 20040302201328 20040302201455
127633 20040303103834 79959696896354 20040303103645 20040303103834
127762 20040303140315 79959696879062 20040303120937 20040303140315
128232 20040303223605 79959696835849 20040303164150 20040303223605
128236 20040303223607 79959696835489 20040303164510 20040303223607


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

subject: [Wikitech-l] Deleting page histories

body:
I am motly on Japanese Wikipedia, and I see really a lot of the same problem
in there, too. I, too, hope that this feature is implemented as soon as
possible, at least for Japanese Wikipedia.

We talk about this feature a lot in Japanese Wikipedia, and I am quite sure
that many others from Japanese Wikipedia would agree that this is something
we need.

Earlier, this idea of deleting particular version was discussed on the list,
and it turned out that Some  Wikipedias needed to reorganize deletion
procedures & rules before adding such a feature, so that their admins will
not abuse this function.
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2003-June/010684.html]

Yet in the mean time, Japanese Wikipedia received/ revealed plenty of
copyvio, some allegedly intentional, that forced us to delete the articles
in many cases. Some such violation arrives at 100th edit (like at Main page,
which indeed is listed at VfD right now), after all the hard work. Others
are in the first versions of articles, but remain unnoticed until 5th edits
or so, again making us very difficult to decide to delete the whole thing.

Another issue that I am aware is that English Wikipedia may be taking the
stance, based on a provision in US copyright law, that past versions are not
for public viewing but for internal record, and therefore copyright
violation does not matter. That idea is so far considered not applicable to
Japanese Wikipedia, because a Japanese copyrightholder can sue Japanese
Wikipedian in a Japanese court and Japanese law could be applied.

The only alternative we had to cope with this problem was to ask developers
to delete specific version of articles. But because of the server
restructuring and other issues, no request was handled yet. (And let me
quickly say that nobody is complaining about that, since we all think they
work hard. But that makes us wonder about the appropriateness, and sometimes
legal risk, of waiting for such a long time when there is a somewhat clear
case of copyright violation. We may delete the article and start from the
scratch, which, again, is not an easy choice at all.)

Currently, we have at least a few dozen pages whose past versions turned out
to be problematic. Well, I really don't want to count, but really a lot was
found during the last 4 or 6 weeks.

If anybody wants to know more about how the situation is like, I would be
more than happy to do it, but I will stop here since it is not a very
pleasant story...

Regards,

Tomos

_________________________________________________________________
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list: wikien-l

from_name: Arwel Parry

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: I just deleted a page ...

body:
In message <4061DEA8.1000403 at telus.net>, Ray Saintonge
<saintonge-EynCeXvFgoheoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org> writes
>The CBC recently did a piece on the first person to be killed in a case
>of on ice hockey violence in 1905.  His attacker was charged with
>murder, and subsequently was acquitted on a reduced charge of
>manslaughter.  What really struck me was that the on-ice event took
>place in March of that year and by the end of April the trial was over.
>If the court system got on with its work instead of dragging things out
>for years, maybe such gag orders wouldn't matter anyway.  Instead the
>legal system has become a high priced welfare system for high income
>lawyers who benefit by keeping cases in the system as long as possible.

I think maybe Americans are just used to legal cases taking forever.
Take a look at http://en.wikikpedia.org/wiki/John_Alan_West for details
of the last capital murder case in Britain - West was murdered in a
burglary on April 7, 1964, the two burglars were arrested two days
later, the trial was in June, and they were hanged on August 13th.

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
At http://world.std.com/obi/Biographical/
there's a copyleft list of 15,000 biography stubs (one-liners). It goes
like this:

Abbot, Charles Greeley (C. G. Abbot)  US astrophysicist; secy. of
Smithsonian Institution 1928-1944 _1872-1973

I think we all agree to use that resource. But how?

1. As one (or multiple) long lists, with links to the appropriate
article, so we can manually paste the stub into the article
2. As automatically generated stub for each non-existing article

#1 would not require much work, #2 would need one of the wiki-bots.

Thoughts? (I hope so;-)

Magnus


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Taste?

body:
Dan Miller wrote:

>>I agree that as a matter of taste, we should (for
>>now) keep this page
>>deleted.  However, as a matter of law, there is no
>>reason for us not
>>to publish this information.
>>
>>
>True, but we'll want a page once the trial's over.  Or
>else we ought to delete [[Nicole Brown Simpson]].
>
The question nobody seems to be asking is whether this person actually
warrants a separate page. Is there really any encyclopedic information
worth including about her, other than as the victim in a high-profile
crime case? In the tangents of the OJ trials, there was also a fair
amount of publicity about Nicole personally, from which we could draw
the information to improve on the measly stub that's there now. While on
the other hand, Kobe Bryant's accuser is unlikely to be the subject of
biographical features afterwards, unless she chooses to be more public
than she has been.

"Fame" and "importance" are uncertain concepts to use here, but is
having your 15 minutes in relative anonymity worth keeping in an
encyclopedia? I would just redirect the page to [[Kobe Bryant]]. We can
still choose whether to publish her name on that page, either now or
later. I agree that for now it's better not to, but it would be less
objectionable as time passes. Assuming that with the passage of time,
anybody even cares what her name is. We're an encyclopedia, not a newspaper.

Lest I be misunderstood, I have at least some sympathy for the cause of
the "low encyclopedic" we just discussed. But in the long run, a
separate page for this woman is not like including a few significant
restaurants in [[New Haven, Connecticut]] - it's like writing separate
articles on each and every one of those restaurants. Not every person
who gets mentioned in an encyclopedia article also warrants their own
article.

--Michael Snow


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
On 03/24/04 21:30, Magnus Manske wrote:

> At http://world.std.com/obi/Biographical/
> there's a copyleft list of 15,000 biography stubs (one-liners). It goes
> like this:
> Abbot, Charles Greeley (C. G. Abbot)  US astrophysicist; secy. of
> Smithsonian Institution 1928-1944 _1872-1973

Looks good.

"Legal issues and disclaimers.
    All these files are copylefted.  If you have any use for them, please use
them.  You are also free to make copies of them for yourself and make copies
to be distributed free of charge to other people, provided that you include
a copy of this README file and share copies of these files for free with
anyone who asks you for them.
    The information in these files is not guaranteed to be accurate.  No
guarantee whatsoever is made as to the accuracy or usefulness of these
files, and you use them entirely at your own risk.  You can't sue me."

So if we put the README as a permission note, with a link on each article,
we should be fine.

> 2. As automatically generated stub for each non-existing article
> #1 would not require much work, #2 would need one of the wiki-bots.

Are there a lot we wouldn't want? If not, dumping all in would be good.
I don't see why not.

- d.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Consistency

body:
John C. Penta wrote:

>From: Jimmy Wales
>
>>Not until my generation is dead and buried, at least.  Back when I was
>>in grade school in the 70s, they tried to teach us the metric system
>>(which is clearly inferior and incomprehensible, by the way!) but it
>>didn't take.  Being an educated person, I can do the conversions, but
>>I have no intuitive grasp of Celcius temperatures, nor do most
>>Americans.
>>
>
>   Same with mine, in the early 90s. It's more common, however, to see metric/SI required even in junior high science courses. Was at my school, anyhow. But no, it doesn't go anywhere for day-to-day tasks. I dunno what it'll take, besides force, to get Americans to abandon imperial units.
>
>>Seriously, though, at the present time there is no significant
>>movement afooot to change our measurement system, nor does anyone seem
>>to particularly care.
>>
The real drive for this in the United States comes fro certain
industries who wish to export to Europe which by the end of 2009 will
ban all imports that are not packaged solely in metric units.  In many
states contracts for highway and bridge construction must be specified
in metric uniots.  The use of metric was authorized in the U. S. in
1866, but it has been slow to do very much that would be visible to the
general public.

Ec


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Fun project: IMDB link submission

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

> I'd suggest creating a new IMDB user "wikipedia" for this task.

I *strongly* suggest not to call it something as general as "Wikipedia".
Please call it "Wikipedia film link submission robot" or something
similarly descriptive.

Timwi


from_name: John C. Penta

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Consistency

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 1:08 pm
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Consistency

> Not until my generation is dead and buried, at least.  Back when I was
> in grade school in the 70s, they tried to teach us the metric system
> (which is clearly inferior and incomprehensible, by the way!) but it
> didn't take.  Being an educated person, I can do the conversions, but
> I have no intuitive grasp of Celcius temperatures, nor do most
> Americans.

   Same with mine, in the early 90s. It's more common, however, to see metric/SI required even in junior high science courses. Was at my school, anyhow. But no, it doesn't go anywhere for day-to-day tasks. I dunno what it'll take, besides force, to get Americans to abandon imperial units.

> Seriously, though, at the present time there is no significant
> movement afooot to change our measurement system, nor does anyone seem
> to particularly care.

   Very true.


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
I once started on a [[safe driving]] article once, but as is usual, lost
interest, but an example.

Fred

> From: "Jason Ruck" <jasonruck at hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:19:39 +1100
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Harnessing the Power of Mistakes
>
> Harnessing the Power of Mistakes
>
> By Jason Ruck
>
>
>
> "You must learn from the mistakes of others. You can't possibly
> live long enough to make them all yourself."
> -Sam Levenson
>
>
> History books provide accounts of man's successes and failures so that we
> may learn from them to better our future. However, detailed accounts of
> geopolitical wars and ethnic disturbances are of little use when one is
> trying to renovate the kitchen or decipher the fine lines of an HMO
> application. The fact is that there is little literature written about the
> mistakes of everyday pursuits, and if there is, it is often segmented,
> outdated or incomprehensive. Inviting the internet community to detail their
> mistakes on an online open-source encyclopedia would provide an invaluable
> resource for users.
>
> Equating this is monetary terms would be difficult but providing an example
> might help illustrate the point;
>
> Let suppose you live in an apartment and the intercom system has
> mysteriously stopped working. You contact your body corporate and they get
> the company in to inspect. After a few  weeks you hear nothing and upon
> calling the company they tell you that your system is old and a new one
> would cost $200 per apartment. If you went onto WIKIhistory (the name I'm
> proposing) and typed in "apartments" and then clicked on intercom, you could
> read that one user found out that her next door neighbor was on holiday and
> "left the receiver off the hook". Such a simple solution would save your
> block thousands of dollars for a new system and a lot of inconvenience.
>
> This is a specific example and I'm sure countless other examples involving
> encounters with tradesmen and choosing the right material for a job could be
> cited.
>
> Supposing that on average each person makes 1 unique, notable mistake a week
> that's 52 mistakes a year, and within a few months 10,000 people have
> contributed to WIKIhistory. With each mistake saving an average of 5
> dollars, this conservative estimate predicts that WIKIhistory's intangible
> worth at one year to be equal to $260,000. Suppose then that In the course
> of one year each bit of advice is headed in total 5 times by users of the
> site, the savings could then be posited at $1.3 million.
>
> Putting aside monetary considerations, WIKIhistory's worth could be
> appraised another way. 10,000 years of experience in one year.
>
> Such centralization of wisdom coupled with the navigational simplicity of
> Wikipedia would create an extremely useful system.
>
> Wikihistory should not be a forum where people pour out detailed advice but
> rather each a succinct paragraph  backed up by real-world cases.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to
> http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
In a message dated 3/25/2004 5:23:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
magnus.manske at web.de writes:
OK, I have a test page here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_encyclopedia_topics/Biographies
_A

I put the links to such pages on
[[Wikipedia:List_of_encyclopedia_topics]]; only "A" exists right now,
though. Can I paste the others as well?

Magnus
I would think so.

Danny
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from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Taste?

body:
Rick wrote:
> I don't see it as the same situation.  Rape shield laws are designed
>to protect a victim from unwanted attention.  There's nothing that
>says her name will ever be printed by reputable press outlets.

A simple and safe course of action would be for us to follow the lead
of other reputable press outlets.

I don't consider this a cut-and-dried matter, though.  Particularly if
Kobe Bryant is ultimately found not guilty, I think that the situation
may change.

--Jimbo


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Steve Cooney

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Symbolwiki.org

body:
I've started symbolwiki.org, as a place to work out a
theory.  Now that the basic principles are fairly well
established, it needs some acoutriments (some of which
are well in development) to make it come alive.

I'm considering donating it and its content to
WikiMedia. If the idea is considered something worthy
of pursuing by peoples in the community, please say
so, and I will take steps toward putting it into
community hands.

Thanks,
Stephen Cooney
eikeiei 戴眩

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
OK, I have a test page here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_encyclopedia_topics/Biographies_A

I put the links to such pages on
[[Wikipedia:List_of_encyclopedia_topics]]; only "A" exists right now,
though. Can I paste the others as well?

Magnus

daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:

> I agree with Ec. We already have tons of stubs. Lets turn this into
> lists that people can work on at their leisure, so that hopefully,
> many of these will not remain stubs.
>
> Danny
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiHiero is here !!

body:
We need to decide on the <rend type="hiero">xxx</rend> vs.
<hiero>xxx</hiero> issue so we can start implementing all kinds of nice
features like this. I vote for the latter. Or did I miss when this was
decided?

// E23

Guillaume Blanchard gblanchard-at-arcsy.co.jp |wikipedia| wrote:

>My "wonderful" tool doesn't seem to interest developers. :o(
>I really like to add it to Mediawiki, so if you have any objections, please
>give me good reasons.
>Indifference is worse than refusal.
>If you have no objections, I'd like to first add it to
>http://test.wikipedia.org.
>Can I get root access to the test site? Or a developer agrees to help
>install my tool?
>Please take a look at : http://aoineko.free.fr
>
>


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [WikiEN-l] I just deleted a page ...

body:
> Thanks.  I'm not really worried about being desysopped, I
> don't think anything I've done warrants it, but if it
> happens, it happens, and I leave the project.
>
> RickK

Let's not get too carried away.  Even if the community decides the
article should stay, you speedily deleted it out of concern for
Wikipedia's legal well-being, so there should not be much ill-will
because of that.

BTW, I've moved the discussion of this from VfD to [[Talk:Kobe Bryant]]

-Fuzheado


subject: [WikiEN-l] I just deleted a page ...

body:
> BTW, I've moved the discussion of this from VfD to
> [[Talk:Kobe Bryant]]

Well, I spoke too soon, the page has been put back onto VfD, and there
is a bit of sparring on the deletion/restoration of the page.

-Fuzheado


from_name: Anthere Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Goings-on

body:
I know not who had the idea of goings-on, but I think
that is a *brillant* idea.

Announcements are far too formal. Pumps are totally
clogged. Goings-on is a great way to have information
made quickly available.

I made one quick goings-on fr a few days ago, in the
hope it would relieve our pump. Our pump is so bad,
that some people think we should double it with a
board. That is a very bad suggestion. You do not make
information flow by adding a parallel tube, you make
if flow by redirecting the good information to the
good people. So the solution is not two pumps, but
better structure of the current information network.

Today, I realise that the goings-on could be one of
this great solution for easy communication between
wikipedias. And especially for wikipedias to know what
is going on in the wikimedia community (as all these
votes on meta, by laws topic, changes in software).

That is the ring we have been looking for for some
time now ! :-)

Each of these goings-on should have one version on
each wikipedia, and one central one on meta. In small
wikipedias, perhaps there should be a link to the meta
one for a while (as long as the community is not big
enough to assume updates).

Each should have local community stuff, and wikipedia
wide stuff. With the archives, that is the best way we
can keep track of information, and make it flows in
many directions.

I would dare to suggest that on each pedia, the issues
that are wikipedia-wide are visibly separated from
issues wikipedia-local, so update from one ring to the
other is much easier.

It could be typically the job of an ambassador to
update the local or the meta goings-on.

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goings-on

What do you think ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


from_name: Arvind Narayanan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews?

body:
On Wed, Mar 24, 2004 at 10:36:03AM -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote:

[snip]
> My suggestion to Arvind, since he does contribute from India, would be
> to start [[Current Events in India]].  He is in a position to provide
> current information about what is being reported in the Indian news
> media to people whose understanding is limited to the belief that India
> is about to drop a nuclear bomb on Pakistan.
ROFL :)

Yes, that's a good suggestion. There are many Indian wikipedians, so
this should be a nice project.

Arvind
--
Its all GNU to me


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Symbolwiki.org

body:
--- Tomasz Wegrzanowski <taw at users.sf.net> wrote:

> Seriously, you should just learn Chinese ;-)

Ah, Thomas, but that would be too easy. ;)

http://www.symbolwiki.org/index.php?title=Symbolwiki:Critique#Why_not_just_learn_Chinese?
Why not just learn Chinese?
A set range of conceptually broad verbs and nouns may
work, but if you want the same depth of communication
present in other languages you will end up with tens
of thousands of characters and character-combinations
like in Chinese .. and then why not just learn
chinese? - Anon
Its a good point. But the idea isnt so much that one
language take precedence over another, rather that a
system is devised by which people can collaborate
accross cultures and implement changes to the
language, or "a" language. Chinese itself is
constantly changing, and these changes are
increasingly reflecting the influence of the web. In
the context of a true cross-cultural language, the
criticism of a language not being as deep as another
arent really valid. Even a library of a hundred basic
symbols would be far more efficient for the larger
transcultural goal, than any of the localized
languages can be.

If Chinese were to "be changed", why not let the
process be open to a much larger audience? That would
mean that it would no longer be Chinese, rather
something based on what everyone brings to it. This
would include ideas like mine for representing social
roles, (and strength yet to be uploaded) which attempt
to organize symbols in to contexts, within which small
modifiers (usually a single dot or a line) can alter
the radical ?rather than use the same compound forms
that Chinese does. This is the main criticism, that
these term-compounds reflect terms that differ accross
local languages. My point is that these will not
matter - the basic functions can be unified, and the
more complex forms can be constructed in different
ways - some may have even have redundant meanings,
until they are reconciled. -KuniShiro 19:08, 22 Mar
2004 (CET)
----

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


from_name: Jason Ruck

subject: [WikiEN-l] Harnessing the Power of Mistakes

body:
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body:
Harnessing the Power of Mistakes

By Jason Ruck

"You must learn from the mistakes of others. You can't possibly
live long enough to make them all yourself."
-Sam Levenson

History books provide accounts of man's successes and failures so that we
may learn from them to better our future. However, detailed accounts of
geopolitical wars and ethnic disturbances are of little use when one is
trying to renovate the kitchen or decipher the fine lines of an HMO
application. The fact is that there is little literature written about the
mistakes of everyday pursuits, and if there is, it is often segmented,
outdated or incomprehensive. Inviting the internet community to detail their
mistakes on an online open-source encyclopedia would provide an invaluable
resource for users.

Equating this is monetary terms would be difficult but providing an example
might help illustrate the point;

Let suppose you live in an apartment and the intercom system has
mysteriously stopped working. You contact your body corporate and they get
the company in to inspect. After a few  weeks you hear nothing and upon
calling the company they tell you that your system is old and a new one
would cost $200 per apartment. If you went onto WIKIhistory (the name I'm
proposing) and typed in "apartments" and then clicked on intercom, you could
read that one user found out that her next door neighbor was on holiday and
"left the receiver off the hook". Such a simple solution would save your
block thousands of dollars for a new system and a lot of inconvenience.

This is a specific example and I'm sure countless other examples involving
encounters with tradesmen and choosing the right material for a job could be
cited.

Supposing that on average each person makes 1 unique, notable mistake a week
that's 52 mistakes a year, and within a few months 10,000 people have
contributed to WIKIhistory. With each mistake saving an average of 5
dollars, this conservative estimate predicts that WIKIhistory's intangible
worth at one year to be equal to $260,000. Suppose then that In the course
of one year each bit of advice is headed in total 5 times by users of the
site, the savings could then be posited at $1.3 million.

Putting aside monetary considerations, WIKIhistory's worth could be
appraised another way. 10,000 years of experience in one year.

Such centralization of wisdom coupled with the navigational simplicity of
Wikipedia would create an extremely useful system.

Wikihistory should not be a forum where people pour out detailed advice but
rather each a succinct paragraph  backed up by real-world cases.

_________________________________________________________________
Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2


from_name: Youandme

subject: [Wikitech-l] pl.wiktionary.org installed and running

body:
Whoever has installed this... thank you very much!
I was waiting for Polish version of Wiktionary,
for the possibility of defining/describing words in Polish
since 13 dec 2002 (yes... since the start of Wiktionary).
Now my small dream comes true.

Thanks folks :)
Youandme


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Symbolwiki.org

body:
--- Tomasz Wegrzanowski <taw at users.sf.net> wrote:
> if you
> want to design
> new ideographic script, you should modify Chinese
> writing, not make something
> completely new - some 1/4th of humanity already
> knows those, and that's
> a big head start.

I agree. That's exactly what it states.  Sadly, I wont
possibly live long enough to "design" it all myself,
as you suggest.

~S

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


from_name: Peter Jaros

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in the news

body:
On Mar 24, 2004, at 1:32 PM, David Speakman wrote:

> As a venture capital journalist for the past seven years, I am
> skeptical.
> Traditional paper encyclopedia companies are going out of business.

Oh, yeah.  Sorry about that.  Heh.

-Wikipedia

                                  -- ---<>--- --
                        A house without walls cannot fall.
           Help build the world's largest encyclopedia at Wikipedia.org
                                  -- ---<>--- --


subject: [Wikipedia-l] WikiHiero is here !!

body:
On Mar 23, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:

> I add an option to output hieroglyph as text (for text only browser)
> using
> the glyph phonemes. Ypu can test it on http://aoineko.free.fr by
> choosing
> the "Text only" mode. The better may be to add an option into
> preference
> (like TeX) to choose the render method.

In future, hieroglyphs will be a part of the Unicode Standard.  When
that
happens we could add a Unicode option (and link to hieroglyph fonts).

Peter

                                  -- ---<>--- --
                        A house without walls cannot fall.
           Help build the world's largest encyclopedia at Wikipedia.org
                                  -- ---<>--- --


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiHiero is here !!

body:
My "wonderful" tool doesn't seem to interest developers. :o(
I really like to add it to Mediawiki, so if you have any objections, please
give me good reasons.
Indifference is worse than refusal.
If you have no objections, I'd like to first add it to
http://test.wikipedia.org.
Can I get root access to the test site? Or a developer agrees to help
install my tool?
Please take a look at : http://aoineko.free.fr

Aoineko

PS: Looking at "Parser.php", I think my tool integration may be very easy if
I can use a namespace (like [[hiero:xxx]]).

From: "Guillaume Blanchard"
> Hi all,
> I developed a PHP program (named WikiHiero) to convert text wrote
according
> to the "Hieroglyphs coding manual" (international standard for typing
> hieroglyph text on computer) syntax into HTML tables using a set of image
> (no image generation like TeX).
>
> I'd like to add this program into Wikimedia software that we can easily
use
> hieroglyphs in Wikipedia, WikiSource and Wikitionary. We need a new tag
(for
> example [[hiero:]]) then send to the WikiHiero program the text into that
> tags. This program create a string with HTML tags (<table> and <img>) we
can
> print (echo) into the page during parsing.
>
> [[hiero:w-i-k-i-p:d-i-a]] => echo WikiHiero("w-i-k-i-p:d-i-a");
>
> I put a test version of WikiHiero at http://aoineko.free.fr. You can, for
> example, try to type w-i-k-i-p:d-i-a, your name, or what you want ;o)
> ('-' is for block separation and ':' for glyph superposition).
>
> I personally planed to use it in Wikipedia, but there are many hieroglyph
> texts available we may add to WikiSource (if under a free licence).
>
> The set of image contain about 1000 small PNG pictures for a total size of
> about 1 Mb.
> I didn't tune yet the program, but I think parsing time is inconsequential
> for small text (I avoid all file check by creating pre-calculate tables).
> I'm sure we can make many speed improvements, but I think this version is
> quick enough to be added to Wikimedia. Any advices to speed process are
> welcome.
>
> I add an option to output hieroglyph as text (for text only browser) using
> the glyph phonemes. Ypu can test it on http://aoineko.free.fr by choosing
> the "Text only" mode. The better may be to add an option into preference
> (like TeX) to choose the render method.
>
> The program is under GFDL (I didn't released source yet because I want to
> comment them first) and hieroglyphs pictures author authorized me to put
> them under GFDL.
>
> Aoineko
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Symbolwiki.org

body:
On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 10:02:42AM -0800, Steve Cooney wrote:
> I've started symbolwiki.org, as a place to work out a
> theory.  Now that the basic principles are fairly well
> established, it needs some acoutriments (some of which
> are well in development) to make it come alive.
>
> I'm considering donating it and its content to
> WikiMedia. If the idea is considered something worthy
> of pursuing by peoples in the community, please say
> so, and I will take steps toward putting it into
> community hands.

Seriously, you should just learn Chinese ;-)


from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiHiero is here !!

body:
Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
> From: "E23"
>
>>We need to decide on the <rend type="hiero">xxx</rend> vs.
>><hiero>xxx</hiero> issue so we can start implementing all kinds of nice
>>features like this. I vote for the latter. Or did I miss when this was
>>decided?
>>// E23
>
>
> I also prefer the last (more simple for non-programmers).
> Can someone tell me how can I test my stuff on test.wikipedia?
>
>

Yes, the second one is consistent with <table>, <math> & so on.

-- Looxix


from_name: Mathias Schindler

subject: [Wikipedia-l] URV-Suche auf kommerziell...

body:
http://www.intern.de/news/5441.html

Reuters jagt Content-Diebe
25.03.2004

Die WebProNews vergleicht die neueste Ank?ndigung der Nachrichtenagentur
Reuters mit den Ma?nahmen der Musikindustrie gegen P2P-Nutzer. Reuters
will zuk?nftig genauer ?berwachen, wo Agenturinhalte legal erscheinen,
beziehungsweise illegal ?bernommen werden.

--
nach uns der synflood.


from_name: Wouter Vanden Hove

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Symbolwiki.org

body:
Op do 25-03-2004, om 19:02 schreef Steve Cooney:
> I'm considering donating it and its content to
> WikiMedia. If the idea is considered something worthy
> of pursuing by peoples in the community, please say
> so, and I will take steps toward putting it into
> community hands.

Then you just need to change the license from CC BY-SA-NC
to  BY-SA and GFDL (dual)

Wouter Vanden Hove
www.opencursus.org
www.vrijschrift.org

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subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiHiero is here !!

body:
From: "E23"
> We need to decide on the <rend type="hiero">xxx</rend> vs.
> <hiero>xxx</hiero> issue so we can start implementing all kinds of nice
> features like this. I vote for the latter. Or did I miss when this was
> decided?
> // E23

I also prefer the last (more simple for non-programmers).
Can someone tell me how can I test my stuff on test.wikipedia?

> Guillaume Blanchard gblanchard-at-arcsy.co.jp |wikipedia| wrote:
>
> >My "wonderful" tool doesn't seem to interest developers. :o(
> >I really like to add it to Mediawiki, so if you have any objections,
please
> >give me good reasons.
> >Indifference is worse than refusal.
> >If you have no objections, I'd like to first add it to
> >http://test.wikipedia.org.
> >Can I get root access to the test site? Or a developer agrees to help
> >install my tool?
> >Please take a look at : http://aoineko.free.fr
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Audin Malmin

subject: [Wikitech-l] Slight change to history javascript...

body:
	Can someone make a small change to the javascript diffing function?

Specifically:

	Changing this line in PageHistory.php/beginHistoryList() from

		$url = wfLocalUrl( $wgTitle->getPrefixedText(), "dummy=1");

	to

		$url = wfFullUrl( $wgTitle->getPrefixedText(), "dummy=1");

	should do the trick.

	As is the javascript diff function no longer works in Firefox 0.8.  It errors
out with:

Security Error: Content at
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Space_Shuttle_program&curid=38458&action=history
may not load or link to
chrome://browser/w/wiki.phtml?title=Space_Shuttle_program&dummy=1&diff=0&oldid=2304466.

	So I suspect the full url will fix the problem and still be compatible
with other browsers.

--
                                            Audin Malmin - audin at okb-1.org

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and
evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the
lack of evidence.                         -- Richard Dawkins


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Symbolwiki.org

body:
On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 02:49:23PM -0800, Steve Cooney wrote:
> --- Tomasz Wegrzanowski <taw at users.sf.net> wrote:
>
> > Seriously, you should just learn Chinese ;-)
>
> Ah, Thomas, but that would be too easy. ;)
>
> http://www.symbolwiki.org/index.php?title=Symbolwiki:Critique#Why_not_just_learn_Chinese?
> Why not just learn Chinese?

Yeah, I've read that, but I still think that if you want to design
new ideographic script, you should modify Chinese writing, not make something
completely new - some 1/4th of humanity already knows those, and that's
a big head start.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] use of other databases than MySQL

body:
On Mar 26, 2004, at 03:21, Bernhard N?gele wrote:
> Hello all together,
>  why is the MediaWiki only supporting MySQL? Some alternatives are
> also interesting (think of POSTGRES)........

The software is developed entirely by volunteers; nobody who's wanted
PostgreSQL support has yet been sufficiently interested to do anything
about it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiHiero is here !!

body:
On Wed, Mar 24, 2004 at 01:51:15PM +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
>
> I add an option to output hieroglyph as text (for text only browser) using
> the glyph phonemes. Ypu can test it on http://aoineko.free.fr by choosing
> the "Text only" mode. The better may be to add an option into preference
> (like TeX) to choose the render method.

Can we, to keep the preferences small, assume that whoever wants to have
text formulas is using a text browser and wants text hieroglyphs, too?

> The program is under GFDL (I didn't released source yet because I want to
> comment them first) and hieroglyphs pictures author authorized me to put
> them under GFDL.

GFDL is not compatible with the GPL. To include the code into MediaWiki,
the code must be released under a compatible license, like GPL, LGPL,
Public Domain, etc.

I would volunteer to include hieroglyph support into the new parser, this
will not affect performance when there are no hieroglyphs in the code.
Can you release a first draft of the code tonight?

	Best regards,

		jens frank


body:
On Mar 25, 2004, at 23:57, Audin Malmin wrote:
> 	As is the javascript diff function no longer works in Firefox 0.8.
> It errors
> out with:
>
> Security Error: Content at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
> title=Space_Shuttle_program&curid=38458&action=history
> may not load or link to
> chrome://browser/w/wiki.phtml?
> title=Space_Shuttle_program&dummy=1&diff=0&oldid=2304466.

I can't reproduce this error with Firefox 0.8 / MacOS X 10.3.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Taylor, Erin A.

subject: [WikiEN-l] Books for Iraqi University Libraries

body:
Please Help Rebuild Iraqi University Libraries

We need your help.  Iraqi university libraries are in desperate need of
books, including those in your discipline.  Please read on to find out
how you can help with Books Beyond Borders, an Al Sharaka activity.

The Al Sharaka Program for Higher Education in Iraq is a unique
consortium of Iraqi and Oklahoma universities dedicated to the
rebuilding of Iraq higher education.  Based at the University of
Oklahoma, we are funded by a USAID grant.   Al Sharaka partners are:

Oklahoma Higher Education Partners (OHEP): Iraq University Partners
(IUP):

University of Oklahoma
University of Salahaddin

Oklahoma State University
University of Babylon

Langston University
University of Technology - Baghdad

Cameron University
Al-Anbar University

Basra University

One of our Al Sharaka goals is to assist in the collection restoration
of our partnering Iraqi university libraries which are severely depleted
and outdated due to two decades of sanctions, regime rule, active
conflict, and looting.

We are emailing your organization to ask for a book donation.  We'd like
you to send us the one new book you feel is very important in your
field.  Which book should any university library have that represents
your discipline?

Alternately, you may have a few "gently used" books that you would like
to pass on to us.  We can only accept books dated 1996 or later and, at
this time, already have electronic journal resources lined up for the
Iraq libraries.  Certainly some books, for instance literature or
philosophy, may be "timeless classics" and an appropriate donation.  But
please help us comply with strict USAID donation guidelines and send
only those books that would update the Iraqi library collections.

Other guidelines for donating:

*      Books, textbooks, instructor's manuals, reference books, and
instructional CDs

*      Books appropriate for undergraduate and graduate level students

*      English is the language of instruction in Iraq

How to Donate:

*      After gathering together your donation, please visit the
following website to print the Books Beyond Borders Donation Form:

http://students.ou.edu/W/Erin.A.Weathers-1/Docs/Donation.doc
<https://exchange.ou.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://students.ou.ed
u/W/Erin.A.Weathers-1/Docs/Donation.doc>

*      Complete the donation form and slip it inside the front cover of
your donation (one form per entire donation, please).

*      Mail your donation (media rate will be the least expensive) to:

      Al Sharaka

      Attn: Erin Taylor Weathers

      1700 Asp Avenue. Box 37

      University of Oklahoma

      Norman, Oklahoma 73072-6400

Your donation will be catalogued and reviewed to determine which Iraqi
campus library would most benefit from it.  Then the Al Sharaka Program
arranges and pays for secured shipping to Iraq which will commence this
summer.  We are able to accept books through the end of May, 2004.

Each donor will receive a commendation certificate based on the
information  completed on the Donation Form.  A tax id can be provided
after your donation has been received for deduction recording purposes.

Please help us in this global effort  - we believe every college student
should have access to our greatest books.  We encourage you to contact
us with any questions or comments.

Marouane, Raye, Mehtab & Andre, Graduate Assistants

Erin Taylor Weathers, Grant Specialist

The Books Beyond Borders Team

Al Sharaka Program for Higher Education in Iraq

University of Oklahoma

(405) 325-5461

etweathers at ou.edu

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from_name: Bernhard Nägele

body:
Hello all together,
why is the MediaWiki only supporting MySQL? Some alternatives are also interesting (think of POSTGRES)........

/Bernhard Naegele
Email: <mailto: bernhard.naegele at t-online.de>

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from_name: Rich Holton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
>
> "Legal issues and disclaimers.
>     All these files are copylefted.  If you have any
> use for them, please use
> them.  You are also free to make copies of them for
> yourself and make copies
> to be distributed free of charge to other people,
> provided that you include
> a copy of this README file and share copies of these
> files for free with
> anyone who asks you for them.

IANAL, but it sounds to me like this is incompatible
with GFDL, since this would only allow redistribution
free of charge. Under GFDL, the documentation may be
sold.

Quoting from the Wikipedia page on GFDL:

"Materials for which commercial redistribution is
prohibited can not be used in a GFDL-licensed
document, e.g. a Wikipedia article, because the
license does not exclude commercial re-use. "

-Rich Holton (Rholton)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


from_name: rkscience100 at yahoo.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
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from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] foundation-l

body:
this mailing list would be one for wikimedia wide
discussions.

5 days is naturally too short a deadline for any
multilingual vote. 7 days is a minimum to find
translators, have translation done, have the
announcement adverstised, and let people time to vote.

I suggest deadline is saturday 3rd of april. Any time
shorter than a week is not an option.

ant

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Goings-on

body:
On Mar 26, 2004, at 16:06, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> If this is only about "goings-on" for one, local Wikipedia, this can
> work. But not a global wikipedia "going-on".
>
> To make this work you need a highly developed respected procedural
> structure for spreading information across all Wikipedias and
> languages. And time also for the migration of the information and
> feedback. There is no hope for this in the current organisation
> structure.

That's pretty much what the "embassy" pages were intended to do, but
unfortunately it takes a lot of dedication to keep up such pages, and
we're all so busy doing all the other things we're here

> It may be possible for creating an internal monthly Wikimedia
> newsletter. For reporting the news of changes to the software,
> organisation or whatever news that can be nice to know for all users
> of the WikiMedia projects. Possible, not easy.

A number of large free software projects have weekly summaries of the
development mailing lists, which may serve as a useful example:
* http://winehq.com/?issue=216
* http://www.kerneltraffic.org/kernel-traffic/latest.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiHiero is here !!

body:
From: "Jens Frank"
> Can we, to keep the preferences small, assume that whoever wants to have
> text formulas is using a text browser and wants text hieroglyphs, too?

Does it mean no user preference and automatically choose text/image render
by detecting browser type? It may be sufficient for now.
By the way, to reduce preferences page size, it may be a good idea to use
menu box (<select>) instead of radio button list. Like this LaTeX option may
be only 1 line long. But perhaps, text browser can't use <select> tag? Or
what do you think about have a "preference page" and an "advanced preference
page"?

> GFDL is not compatible with the GPL. To include the code into MediaWiki,
> the code must be released under a compatible license, like GPL, LGPL,
> Public Domain, etc.

Ho! I didn't know. So, consider the program is under GPL and pictures under
GFDL.

> I would volunteer to include hieroglyph support into the new parser, this
> will not affect performance when there are no hieroglyphs in the code.
> Can you release a first draft of the code tonight?

Thanks! I will annotate the source and send it to you (or to this list?)
shortly.
I already send an uncommented version to E23, to have his opinion about
code.
Cheers,

Guillaume Blanchard (Aoineko)


body:
This has now been fixed in CVS.

// E23

Audin Malmin audin-at-okb-1.org |wikipedia| wrote:

>	Can someone make a small change to the javascript diffing function?
>
>Specifically:
>
>	Changing this line in PageHistory.php/beginHistoryList() from
>
>		$url = wfLocalUrl( $wgTitle->getPrefixedText(), "dummy=1");
>
>	to
>
>		$url = wfFullUrl( $wgTitle->getPrefixedText(), "dummy=1");
>
>	should do the trick.
>
>	As is the javascript diff function no longer works in Firefox 0.8.  It errors
>out with:
>
>Security Error: Content at
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Space_Shuttle_program&curid=38458&action=history
>may not load or link to
>chrome://browser/w/wiki.phtml?title=Space_Shuttle_program&dummy=1&diff=0&oldid=2304466.
>
>	So I suspect the full url will fix the problem and still be compatible
>with other browsers.
>
>
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
It seems that we just went through this over the list of articles in the
Columbia Encyclopedia, and decided that it was OK.  This list is even
less risky.
Ec

Magnus Manske wrote:

> Well, we can take this either by the letter:
>     "If you have any use for them, please use them.".
> Did so. Or, we can use it in the way it appears to be ment, which
> seems to be indicated quite well by the word "copyleft".
>
> Anyway, I wrote the original author a mail and asked for his explicit
> permission, to mail to me or to this list.
>
> Magnus
>
> Rich Holton wrote:
>
>> IANAL, but it sounds to me like this is incompatible
>> with GFDL, since this would only allow redistribution
>> free of charge. Under GFDL, the documentation may be
>> sold.
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
Well, IANAL, nor am I a fanatic about this. I don't
want this to become a major issue. But I will make a
few comments:

CopyLeft is a much more general term. To say that
something is Copyleft does not necessarily mean that
it's compatible with GFDL.

I suppose we could use this list as "fair use". I
suppose there may be some question as to whether such
a list is copyrightable anyway. However, including a
readme that specifically states that commercial
redistribution is not allowed does not sound like a
good idea to me.

Of course, if we get documented express permission,
then that solves all problems. We'd better make sure
the copyright holder understands GFDL.

-Rich

--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> It seems that we just went through this over the
> list of articles in the
> Columbia Encyclopedia, and decided that it was OK.
> This list is even
> less risky.
> Ec
>
> Magnus Manske wrote:
>
> > Well, we can take this either by the letter:
> >     "If you have any use for them, please use
> them.".
> > Did so. Or, we can use it in the way it appears to
> be ment, which
> > seems to be indicated quite well by the word
> "copyleft".
> >
> > Anyway, I wrote the original author a mail and
> asked for his explicit
> > permission, to mail to me or to this list.
> >
> > Magnus
> >
> > Rich Holton wrote:
> >
> >> IANAL, but it sounds to me like this is
> incompatible
> >> with GFDL, since this would only allow
> redistribution
> >> free of charge. Under GFDL, the documentation may
> be
> >> sold.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiHiero is here !!

body:
Ok, I released a "clean" version of WikiHiero.
It can be download from my test server:
http://aoineko.free.fr/index.php?lang=en
Or directly:
http://aoineko.free.fr/wikihiero.rar (811.71 Kb)
http://aoineko.free.fr/wikihiero.zip (1.16 Mb)
Regards,

Aoineko

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jens Frank" <JeLuF at gmx.de>
To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiHiero is here !!

> On Wed, Mar 24, 2004 at 01:51:15PM +0900, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
> >
> > I add an option to output hieroglyph as text (for text only browser)
using
> > the glyph phonemes. Ypu can test it on http://aoineko.free.fr by
choosing
> > the "Text only" mode. The better may be to add an option into preference
> > (like TeX) to choose the render method.
>
> Can we, to keep the preferences small, assume that whoever wants to have
> text formulas is using a text browser and wants text hieroglyphs, too?
>
> > The program is under GFDL (I didn't released source yet because I want
to
> > comment them first) and hieroglyphs pictures author authorized me to put
> > them under GFDL.
>
> GFDL is not compatible with the GPL. To include the code into MediaWiki,
> the code must be released under a compatible license, like GPL, LGPL,
> Public Domain, etc.
>
> I would volunteer to include hieroglyph support into the new parser, this
> will not affect performance when there are no hieroglyphs in the code.
> Can you release a first draft of the code tonight?
>
> Best regards,
>
> jens frank
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
On 03/25/04 10:23, Magnus Manske wrote:

> OK, I have a test page here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_encyclopedia_topics/Biographies_A
> I put the links to such pages on
> [[Wikipedia:List_of_encyclopedia_topics]]; only "A" exists right now,
> though. Can I paste the others as well?

This is excellent! And I'm very pleased by how many we have already.

Mention it on "Announcements" too, I suggest.

- d.


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] EasyTimeline - Generate graphical timelines from a
	simple script

body:
As the saying goes: a picture often tells more than a thousand words. This
is certainly true for graphical timelines. A detailed listing of events and
dates in tabular form may offer the reader a lot of specifics, but may fail
to provide an overview, a grand perspective.

I have devised a simple yet flexible script syntax for defining time chart
input.

A user writes an input script, runs EasyTimeline (invokes other free sw) to
generate the chart and uploads chart and script to Wikipedia. Someone else
can download and modify the script, generate a new or translated version of
the chart, and upload chart and script back to Wikipedia.

Examples and details at
http://members.chello.nl/epzachte/Wikipedia/EasyTimeline/Introduction.htm

Please comment at
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Project_Time_Charts

Erik Zachte


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] List proposal: foundation-l

body:
Now that intlwiki-l is officially merged into wikipedia-l, I suggest a new
mailing list for Wikimedia-wide issues so this list isn't cluttered by
non-Wikipedia issues. I propose the name foundation-l to avoid constant
Wikipedia/Wikimedia typos.

The detailed proposal is here:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation-L_Proposal

The voting deadline is March 31. Please translate this announcement into
your local language and post it on the relevant wiki pages / mailing
lists.

All best,

Erik


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocked user Tim706

body:
I've put a 48-hour block on user Tim706, who has recently committed a
series of vandalisms and has no history of productive edits. (In each
case, his vandalism consists of replacing an existing photograph with
a doctored photo on which he has drawn red horns and a beard and a
caption that says, "Bitch ate my dog.")

This is the first time I've ever blocked a user. I did a quick scan
of Wikipedia policies, and I think that a ban under these
circumstances is within my authority as a sysop. If this is not the
case, please correct me.

--Sheldon Rampton


subject: [Wikipedia-l] foundation-l

body:
Anthere-
> 5 days is naturally too short a deadline for any
> multilingual vote. 7 days is a minimum to find
> translators, have translation done, have the
> announcement adverstised, and let people time to vote.

I disagree. The creation of a new mailing list is not a major issue, we do
not need to bother every single Wikipedian about it. It's enough to get
feedback from a selected sample of Wikipedians from all major languages.

In response to your earlier concerns of the same nature regarding the edit
summary prefill poll, I had already chosen a deadline of 5 days instead of
the 3 days I used for that poll, to allow for 2 additional days of
translating the very small announcement and proposal. I consider this a
courtesy to you and an attempt to meet you in the middle. I'm not willing
to go any further. If you want a longer deadline, start a vote on the
deadline, and let's use the results of that vote as a precedent for
similar cases in the future.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [WikiEN-l] Biography stub dump, anyone?

body:
Well, we can take this either by the letter:
	"If you have any use for them, please use them.".
Did so. Or, we can use it in the way it appears to be ment, which seems
to be indicated quite well by the word "copyleft".

Anyway, I wrote the original author a mail and asked for his explicit
permission, to mail to me or to this list.

Magnus

Rich Holton wrote:
> IANAL, but it sounds to me like this is incompatible
> with GFDL, since this would only allow redistribution
> free of charge. Under GFDL, the documentation may be
> sold.


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Goings-on

body:
Anthere Anthere wrote:

> I know not who had the idea of goings-on, but I think
> that is a *brillant* idea.
>
> Announcements are far too formal. Pumps are totally
> clogged. Goings-on is a great way to have information
> made quickly available.
[cut]

If this is only about "goings-on" for one, local Wikipedia, this can
work. But not a global wikipedia "going-on".

To make this work you need a highly developed respected procedural
structure for spreading information across all Wikipedias and languages.
And time also for the migration of the information and feedback. There
is no hope for this in the current organisation structure.

It may be possible for creating an internal monthly Wikimedia
newsletter. For reporting the news of changes to the software,
organisation or whatever news that can be nice to know for all users of
the WikiMedia projects. Possible, not easy.

Walter


from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Foundation-l

body:
I personally think foundation-l is a good idea. Here is a list of topics
that I can imagine for the foundation-l

Bylaws
Fiscal issues
Election
Wikimediafoundation.org web site
Proposal for new projects such as wikinews or commons
Issues related to Meta Wikimedia

Regarding the five-day deadline, I think it is okay.

At Japanese Wikipedia, virtually no policy decision is made within a week.
We wait at least 7 days to see if there is any dissent. (If there is, we
discuss the proposal further, and take more time.)

But probably this list is merely a spin-out from the existing one, and that
means the voting is mainly for those who are already on the list, as opposed
to wikipedia-wide.

If there is any intention of increasing multilingual participation to a
mailinglist (to this or any other), we may need to take more time and listen
to what people have to say. But Erik's proposal is not about increasing
participation, etc. If the current participants think splitting is a good
idea, that might well be enough.

But still, if there is no reason to hurry, it is okay to vote for 7 days, or
even to keep vote open until 3days of no voting activity, I suppose. If the
list ends up under-used, for example, this kind of wider-consensus could
serve as a source of legitimacy to keep it, and try to make use of it, as
opposed to simply abandon it. But again, maybe Erik is thinking that it is
too obvious that there is a need for the list, and taking long time for a
vote is not necessary. He might be right.

Regards,

Tomos

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list: textbook-l

from_name: lars hennings

subject: [Textbook-l] bye for that time

body:
www.photographien.org
+49 (0)30 6290 4734
nur: lars at l-hennings.de

Hi Karl, Theresa and the others.

My book is finished for that time, so I say thanks again and bye.

best regards
lars

PS: the problem we discussed for the title of the book was not shown. May be
it was not for my PC used an old www.
Now I saw: if i?m logged in comming to the site - my PC didn?t see it.
If I?m not its to see.

But it is not interestimg for me any longer


from_name: Ivan Krstic

subject: [Wikitech-l] Postgres suport for MediaWiki

body:
Hi Bernhard,

it's very arguable what exactly is meant by "more professional".
Generally speaking, speed is MySQL's forte, and is also what MediaWiki
has a great need for (particularly with Wikipedia). The magazine
articles you've read were probably referring to some of the more
"enterprise" features (MySQL for a long time did not support
transactions, and replication was dubious at best) which MediaWiki
doesn't really need. I don't personally think there is much benefit in
letting the code use Postgres, but if you're willing to put in the
effort - hey, great, send a patch.

As for the MediaWiki table structure, while I'm sure we can help with
problems you might encounter, it might be easier for you to install,
temporarily, MySQL on one of your machines. MySQL binaries are available
for a slew of operating systems and architectures, so it shouldn't take
very long.

Cheers,
Ivan

>>> Bernhard.Naegele at t-online.de 03/27/04 12:02 PM >>>
[...]
In every article about Open Databases I read, that Postgres is a more
professional database than MySQL, so I wonder that there is no interrest
in suporting also Postgresql, or is there also interrest?

However, I have a running Postgres database and I want to run also a
Wiki
Wiki. The question for me is now if I should take PHPWiki which has
Postgres
support or if I should spend some time in enhancing MediaWiki.
At the moment, it seams that MediaWiki has more interesting features
than
PHPWiki.......
So my first question: Was there a demand for Postgres in the past?
Second: Is there anyone who can suport me if I have some question about
MySQL
(table-structure of MediaWiki) support of MediaWiki? I don't want to
install
also MySQL on some of my computers......
Best regards,
Bernhard

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Since when did Wikipedia become a "religion website"?

body:
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=6B26DA8F-DB8B-48B1-AECD-4E8387760B80

RickK

---------------------------------
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from_name: Michael Snow

body:
Just to let people know, Anthony DiPierro is now going around and
reinstating the name, which we have generally avoided using so far, on
Votes for deletion and Votes for undeletion.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Bernhard Naegele

body:
Hello,
I'm interrested in porting MediaWiki so that it also supports Postgres.
In every article about Open Databases I read, that Postgres is a more
professional database than MySQL, so I wonder that there is no interrest in
suporting also Postgresql, or is there also interrest?
However, I have a running Postgres database and I want to run also a Wiki
Wiki. The question for me is now if I should take PHPWiki which has Postgres
support or if I should spend some time in enhancing MediaWiki.
At the moment, it seams that MediaWiki has more interesting features than
PHPWiki.......
So my first question: Was there a demand for Postgres in the past?
Second: Is there anyone who can suport me if I have some question about MySQL
(table-structure of MediaWiki) support of MediaWiki? I don't want to install
also MySQL on some of my computers......
Best regards,
Bernhard


from_name: wiki pedista

subject: [Wikitech-l] Saved special pages

body:
I noticed that in the english wikipedia the special
pages have a saved version. In the spanish wiki not.
Who is in charge of running the queries and saving
the results in those pages? Who can do it?

AstroNomer

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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.2.1 release

body:
Installation, compatibility, security fixlets vs 1.2.0:
* Detect use of PHP as CGI and disable index.php/Title URLs
* Try to auto-create math tmp & output directories if not present
* Disable Asksql in default install ($wgAllowSysopQueries)
* Better handling of get_magic_quotes_gpc (apostrophe problems)
* French localisation no longer hard-codes "Wikipedia" name

There are no database format changes since 1.2.1.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Neil Harris

body:
Ivan Krstic wrote:

>Hi Bernhard,
>
>it's very arguable what exactly is meant by "more professional".
>Generally speaking, speed is MySQL's forte, and is also what MediaWiki
>has a great need for (particularly with Wikipedia). The magazine
>articles you've read were probably referring to some of the more
>"enterprise" features (MySQL for a long time did not support
>transactions, and replication was dubious at best) which MediaWiki
>doesn't really need. I don't personally think there is much benefit in
>letting the code use Postgres, but if you're willing to put in the
>effort - hey, great, send a patch.
>
>As for the MediaWiki table structure, while I'm sure we can help with
>problems you might encounter, it might be easier for you to install,
>temporarily, MySQL on one of your machines. MySQL binaries are available
>for a slew of operating systems and architectures, so it shouldn't take
>very long.
>
>Cheers,
>Ivan
>
>
>

I'm really pleased that Bernhard has stepped forward to offer to work on
this. Thank you, Bernhard!

I think the question of which database is best for Wikipedia is very
much an open question; it's entirely possible that a database that is
faster under a simple load because of simple uncomplicated code may be
slower under a complex load, because of a lack of code to resolve
complex concurrency issues.

I don't know if that's true -- what I do know is that it would be very
useful to be able to run MediaWiki on either, as this will
* increase choice, particularly in the future
* reduce dependence on the SQL idioms of any given DBMS: standards are good!
* enable benchmarking to see which database  is most suitable for our
current and predicted future loads.

Certainly, in the near future, the Wikipedia DB will have "enterprise
class" needs for resilience and scalability.
In particular, thorough support for replication and snapshotting are
likely to be important.

-- Neil


subject: [WikiEN-l] Should articles explain pronunciation?

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Should Wikipedia articles, in their first paragraph, explain the
> pronunciation of the word that is the article title?
>
> I have removed those on the grounds that Wikipedia is not a
> dictionary, but I've been reverted with the argument that a
> pronunciation guide doesn't turn an article into a dictionary definition.
>
> My reasoning behind not wanting the pronunciations is that logically,
> articles should describe the concept behind a word (e.g. the planet
> Uranus) and not the word itself ("Uranus", which could be referring to
> a planet, a deity, or even a film). Also, what makes the pronunciation
> of Uranus more mention-worthy than that of, say, "planet"?

The idea that Wikipedia is not a dictionary does not prevent dictionary
data from being included in an article along with the other information.
 It is meant to prevent articles from being *only* dictionary data.
 Pronunciation is not part of the definition, but it is dictionary data.

"Uranus" is actually a good example of a name where pronunciation
*should* be discussed, given the obvious pun that is involved with the
name.  In general, the pronunciations should be kept.

Ec


from_name: John C. Penta

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>
Date: Sunday, March 28, 2004 0:45 am
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Should articles explain pronunciation?

>
> The subject line says it all...
>
> Should Wikipedia articles, in their first paragraph, explain the
> pronunciation of the word that is the article title?

   Where the pronounciation may be unclear (for example, with most foreign-language words), or just plain hard, yes. Otherwise, no.

   John


from_name: zero 0000

body:
--- Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Should Wikipedia articles, in their first paragraph, explain the
> pronunciation of the word that is the article title?

Pronunciation is useful information in the cases where it will
not be obvious to a typical English speaker.  "Uranus" and many
foreign words are examples.

World Book is an example of a professional encyclopedia that
gives pronunciations.

Zero.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


from_name: Timwi

body:
The subject line says it all...

Should Wikipedia articles, in their first paragraph, explain the
pronunciation of the word that is the article title?

I have removed those on the grounds that Wikipedia is not a dictionary,
but I've been reverted with the argument that a pronunciation guide
doesn't turn an article into a dictionary definition.

My reasoning behind not wanting the pronunciations is that logically,
articles should describe the concept behind a word (e.g. the planet
Uranus) and not the word itself ("Uranus", which could be referring to a
planet, a deity, or even a film). Also, what makes the pronunciation of
Uranus more mention-worthy than that of, say, "planet"?

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WikiHiero is here !!

body:
Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:

> Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
>
>> From: "E23"
>>
>>> We need to decide on the <rend type="hiero">xxx</rend> vs.
>>> <hiero>xxx</hiero> issue so we can start implementing all kinds of nice
>>> features like this. I vote for the latter. Or did I miss when this was
>>> decided?
>>> // E23
>>
>> I also prefer the last (more simple for non-programmers).
>> Can someone tell me how can I test my stuff on test.wikipedia?
>
> Yes, the second one is consistent with <table>, <math> & so on.

That alone doesn't make it simpler for non-programmers.

I've already mentioned in the past that I gravely dislike
<math>...</math> because it is very awkward to type and very un-wiki.
Now adding <hiero>...</hiero> only makes it worse. Why duplicate the
word "hiero" anyway? It's not like we're going to nest a hiero inside a
math or vice-versa.

So, I still maintain that a much more sensical syntax would be something
like (this is just an example):

     [!math  x^2 + y^2 = z^2  !]
     [!hiero  b-l:a-h  !]

I had previously even advocated to use, say, [[!...!]] for maths and
then perhaps [[^...^]], [[#...#]] etc. for other things in order to
avoid anglocentrism, but I suppose that is a lost cause.

Timwi


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] meta and local wiki merge rc and watch list  option

body:
Title should say it all...though I am sure it is not clear :-)

What about an option for the user to have a merge of rc of meta and one
local wikipedia ?

Same for rc ?

That will increase meta visibility (at the user choice only). And it
should not spoil rc, since meta traffic is rather low.


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WikiHiero is here !!

body:
On Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 08:03:36AM +0100, Timwi wrote:
> >Yes, the second one is consistent with <table>, <math> & so on.
>
> That alone doesn't make it simpler for non-programmers.
>
> I've already mentioned in the past that I gravely dislike
> <math>...</math> because it is very awkward to type and very un-wiki.
> Now adding <hiero>...</hiero> only makes it worse. Why duplicate the
> word "hiero" anyway? It's not like we're going to nest a hiero inside a
> math or vice-versa.
>
> So, I still maintain that a much more sensical syntax would be something
> like (this is just an example):
>
>     [!math  x^2 + y^2 = z^2  !]
>     [!hiero  b-l:a-h  !]
>
> I had previously even advocated to use, say, [[!...!]] for maths and
> then perhaps [[^...^]], [[#...#]] etc. for other things in order to
> avoid anglocentrism, but I suppose that is a lost cause.

math is just a word - [[!...%^$#%$#%]] is a string of random characters.
Guess which one is easier ?


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Some history (was: Goings-on)

body:
Anthere Anthere wrote:

> I know not who had the idea of goings-on, but I think
> that is a *brillant* idea.

I'm very glad that you like it. :-)

The following snippets are taken from a chat log of the evening of Sat 6
March, times are in UTC. I believe the idea was originally Pilaf's:

     [23:35] <Pilaf> Is there anything like a "weekly digest" in en:?

but people originally misunderstood his vision:

     [23:35] <AdamBishop> current events?

but I didn't ;-)

     [23:41] <Timwi> No, such a thing does not exist to my knowlege.
     [...]
     [23:43] <SethIlys> Pilaf: What would go there?
     [23:44] <Timwi> I assume just about everything that has some sort of
                     impact on the community of Wikipedians.
     [23:44] <Pilaf> Important and not so important announcements,
                     important discussions going on, new "featured
                     articles", statistics, etc.
     [23:44] <Timwi> Probably things like the VfD redesign (even if
                     unsuccessful), the addition of new features to the
                     software, etc.
     [23:44] <Pilaf> Timwi resumes it quite well :)

After a bit of organisatorial pain...

     [23:52] <Timwi> Argh.

... as well as some contructive discussion ...

     [23:52] <Timwi> I fear that mediation/arbitration info would drown
                     all the rest of the information...
     [23:52] <SethIlys> Oh, I doubt it...

... the decision was finally made:

     [23:53] <Timwi> OK, I'll start such a page.
     [23:53] <Pilaf> I'll help you if you let me :)

Quick decision upon the name:

     [23:53] <Pilaf> What will it be called?
     [23:54] <Timwi> Since we've already had confusion problems with
                     "Main Page"/"Wikipedia:Main Page", I'll call it
                     "Wikipedia:Recent happenings" rather than
                     "Wikipedia:Current events". Is that OK?
     [23:54] <Angela> not happenings
     [23:54] <SethIlys> [[Wikipedia:Goings-on]] ?
     [23:54] <Timwi> Goings-on is very nice!

and later, lo and behold:

     [00:03] <Timwi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Goings-on
     [00:04] <Timwi> It does help that it's Sunday 0:00 UTC just now! :-D

The first version of the page which I demonstrated here is now at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Goings-on/March_7%2C_2004&oldid=2658757
and it already contained the first going-on! :-)

SethIlys and Fabiform kindly helped me collect the goings-on from the
week that had just passed and ended up creating the page that is now
[[Wikipedia:Goings-on/February 29, 2004]].

End of history lesson! :)

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WikiHiero is here !!

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

> math is just a word - [[!...%^$#%$#%]] is a string of random characters.
> Guess which one is easier ?

... Sorry? Could you translate that into English for me? Where did I
write "[[!...%^$#%$#%]]"?

What are you referring to as "easier"? [!...!] is certainly easier to
type than <math>...</math>, and no less easier to remember. "math" is
just a word, yes, but "<math>...</math>" is more than just "math", and
more than [!...!] too.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: meta and local wiki merge rc and watch list option

body:
Anthere wrote:

> What about an option for the user to have a merge of rc of meta and one
> local wikipedia ?
>
> Same for [ watchlists ] ?

Well, I have already mentioned several times in the past that, in the
medium term, we should merge all the Wikipedias, or perhaps even all the
Wikimedia projects, into one database, so that users can have *ONE*
account, *ONE* watchlist and *ONE* set of preferences. Then it would be
a very small step to allow Recent Changes filtered by project/language.

Timwi


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] Saved special pages

body:
"wiki pedista" <wikipedista at yahoo.com> schrieb:
> I noticed that in the english wikipedia the special
> pages have a saved version. In the spanish wiki not.
> Who is in charge of running the queries and saving
> the results in those pages? Who can do it?

Anyone can do it. It's a special URL. You take the URL in the form with
w/wiki.phtml?, and add "&magic=yes" to it.

On Spanish this gives:

http://es.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Especial:Shortpages&magic=yes

(plus the same for the other pages), on other languages you have of course
to use your own name for the 'Special' namespace.

You will then get the page as if it worked normally, and it will be
archived in the version that you last saw.

You should of course not over-use this possibility, that would defeat the
purpose of having the special pags archived.

P.S.: I have done an update on es: for you now. :-)

Andre Engels


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] foundation-l

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Le Saturday 27 March 2004 00:04, Erik Moeller a ?crit :
> Anthere-
>
> > 5 days is naturally too short a deadline for any
> > multilingual vote. 7 days is a minimum to find
> > translators, have translation done, have the
> > announcement adverstised, and let people time to vote.
>
> I disagree. The creation of a new mailing list is not a major issue, we do
> not need to bother every single Wikipedian about it. It's enough to get
> feedback from a selected sample of Wikipedians from all major languages.

It is true that the creation of a new mailing list is not a major issue, but
five days is really to short to allow any issue to be translated and
discussed in all different language Wikipedia. This is really a clear case of
English language people deciding for others.

Yann

- --
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFAZqQim4KYjQo0y9oRAio0AJ9wV3KBFZeT+pAgGevgGIqruUivwQCcC2bv
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
We are all things...Universal...

Fred

> From: Peter Jaros <rjaros at shaysnet.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:18:08 -0500
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Since when did Wikipedia become a "religion website"?
>
> On Mar 27, 2004, at 8:31 PM, Rick wrote:
>
>> http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=6B26DA8F-DB8B
>> -48B1-AECD-4E8387760B80
>
> Whoa.  Has anyone responded to this yet?
>
> Peter
>
> -- ---<>--- --
> A house without walls cannot fall.
> Help build the world's largest encyclopedia at Wikipedia.org
> -- ---<>--- --
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: foundation-l

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

> It is true that the creation of a new mailing list is not a major issue, but
> five days is really to short to allow any issue to be translated and
> discussed in all different language Wikipedia. This is really a clear case of
> English language people deciding for others.
>
> Yann

So, what is new about that?

Walter


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: meta and local wiki merge rc and watch list
	option

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Anthere wrote:
>
>> What about an option for the user to have a merge of rc of meta and
>> one local wikipedia ?
>>
>> Same for [ watchlists ] ?
>
> Well, I have already mentioned several times in the past that, in the
> medium term, we should merge all the Wikipedias, or perhaps even all
> the Wikimedia projects, into one database, so that users can have
> *ONE* account, *ONE* watchlist and *ONE* set of preferences. Then it
> would be a very small step to allow Recent Changes filtered by
> project/language.

As much as I support the idea of a unified log-in and account, I would
be hesitant about having a unified database.  Of course any attempt to
unify databases should not take place until all projects, including the
English Wikipedia have been converted to Unicode.

I prefer to look at the watch lists separately, because each project
tends to approach things differently.  Some people would indeed like to
have combined watchlists, and they should have that option, but it
should not be the default for everybody.

We should also be able to have different preferences.  I use different
combinations of side-bars and skins as a way of knowing which project I
happen to be in at any given time.

Ec


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Neil Harris wrote:
> I'm really pleased that Bernhard has stepped forward to offer to work on
> this. Thank you, Bernhard!

Yes, this is a very good thing indeed!

> * reduce dependence on the SQL idioms of any given DBMS: standards are
> good!

I suggest putting *all* current queries into a new MySQL PHP class. A
new database can then be added by "simply" rewriting that class.

Magnus