from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [WikiEN-l] image copyright tag drive

body:
To those who work on the image copyright tags:

I ran a (read-only) bot on [1], removing already tagged images, and
adding hints to those that contain certain keywords. Would this be
helpful for the other pages too, or is it rather distracting?

Magnus

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Untagged_Images/untaggedimages-bi


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Matt R

subject: [WikiEN-l] citing for wikipedia

body:
 --- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> speck912 at comcast.net (speck912 at comcast.net) [041217 22:06]:
>
> > Hi, I'm doing a paper for my math class strangely enough and I was
> wondering how you cite in a paper for the Wikipedia Encyclopedia.  I don't
> want to plagiarize and I didn't know how to cite online encyclopedias.  If
> you could contact me back ASAP that would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.
>
> Quote from it only as much as you would from any encyclopedia, and cite it
> as you would any web page. If you want to cite the particular version you
> are referring to, click on the link to "Page history" and that will give
> you a pile of links to each version by date and time.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citing_Wikipedia

-- Matt

[[User:Matt Crypto]]

___________________________________________________________
Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


list: foundation-l

from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal

body:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:36:49 +0100, Jens Ropers
<ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
>> Germans commonly don't have
>> credit cards (for some weird reason they're regarded as snobbish and
>> elitist in Germany).

On 17 Dec 2004, at 10:54, Robin Shannon wrote:

> So how do germans usually pay for stuff online?
>
> paz y amor,
> [[User:The bellman]]
>

It varies.
(I'm not an expert here, as my online "coming of age" took place while
I was living in Ireland and later England. Even now that I'm again
based in Germany I rarely deal with German online businesses.)

eBay for instance has developed something called "?berweisung Plus"
(which translates to "bank transfer plus"). Similar with paypal, you
can do an ?berweisung from and for a German paypal account. I also
learned that it's for example standard practice with all German hosting
providers to require customers to print out and snail mail in
confirmation forms.

The complete insanity with this this daft German credit card aversion
is that it doesn't make effin sense:
The German public considers credit cards a privilege of the rich --
when the opposite is the case, really. The way I remember things from
Britain, while credit cards were a currency of convenience to well-off
people, the folks who really DEPENDED on them were the less well off
who did not always have the cash on hand and really could use the
credit (with the attached risk of being hit with extortionate rates if
they didn't pay back the money within a month, but that's another
issue).
If I'm using my VISA in Germany I get funny looks ("Gee, he must be a
rich bastard. Who would've thought?!") due to my now being a student.
PEOPLE JUST DON'T FECKIN UNDERSTAND. It's called "CREDIT card".
_CREDIT_ card, GEDDIT!!!
If I HAD the money ready I wouldn't NEED to use a _credit_ card. Yet
somehow the perception that credit cards are snobbish is so ingrained
in German public consciousness, it's mental, really. The retailers
don't help things by often not accepting credit card because of the
tiny fraction that the card companies keep. And worst of all, German
banks treat requests for credit cards as if you were asking for a
complimentary limo ride. They are really selective about who gets a
credit card, because even they suffer from the above delusion (all the
worse for their business) and try to let you feel that to be granted a
credit card is a massive privilege which should inspire your perpetual
loyalty.
The only bank in Germany that's not as much a moron about credit cards
is citibank. I wonder why that is? ;-)

Without knowing any inside info, I'm pretty certain e.g. that German
iTunes sales will be below expectations, because you need a credit card
for the thing and Germans just ''don't have credit cards'' (even
well-off people often don't).

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal


from_name: Mark Richards

subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV and alleged phenomenon

body:
I think there may be confusion between strawmen and
stalking horses.
Mark

--- JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> > > Ex, you are making a strawhorse argument.  You
> are trying
> > > to deligitimize my basic argument by focusing on
> one
> > > example sentence that doesn't even exist in any
> article!
> >
> >Is the word strawman/strawhorse argument a purely
> wikimedia thing,
> >because i had never heard the phrase before i
> subscribed to these
> >lists?
>
> Strawman argument is commonly used outside of
> Wikipedia.  I've never heard
> of a strawhorse argument before.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: New policy proposal

body:
I think this is an excellent idea, although, to be
fair, the 'fact' that the earth is round is not
completly undisputed ;)
Mark

--- Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Regarding the references tab, I coincidentally
> posted a similar idea
> to WP:VP a few days ago. My idea differs slightly,
> in that I think it
> would be better if the reference page was not
> automatically generated
> from inline footnotes. Here's the text I posted on
> WP:VP:
>
> ----
>
> I think that in addition to a Talk: page for each
> article, there
> should be a References: page. With the current talk
> of referencing
> every fact in Wikipedia (which is a great idea),
> this seems like the
> only solution to me. Adding notes and inline links
> everywhere in
> articles only adds clutter, especially if the
> information about a
> reference is to include more than just a link.
>
> My idea for the References: page is that it could
> mirror the section
> structure of the main article. The references page
> could then include
> prose, such as for example, "The fact that X is Y
> given in the first
> paragraph of this section is based on Foo (1990),
> pages 800-803, and
> supported by Bar (1992), page 456."
>
> This way references can be provided in a way that is
> easier to
> interpret for the reader, more information about the
> references can be
> provided (since there's no cluttering of the
> articles), and editing
> becomes easier than with footnotes.
>
> The link to the "References" page should be next to
> the "Article" and
> "Discussion" links. This would probably be easy to
> implement in the
> software.
>
> By the way, another argument for this is that
> in-article references
> IMO break the excellent philosphy employed by
> Wikipedia that article
> content should be separated from discussion about
> articles. Though not
> discussion, references like discussion is not
> information about the
> subject but meta-information. ("further reading"
> bibliography
> sections, just like external links, should however
> still be provided
> in the main article.)
>
> Another thing is that users could be allowed to sign
> with their names
> on the references page. That way, when a published
> reference work is
> not available, a user could sign to assert the
> validity of
> information. That way, information can be judged
> based on the
> credentials of that user. This is not different from
> looking up who
> added a piece of information using the page history,
> but more
> convenient since many articles have several pages of
> revision history
> listing, and users could then add more justification
> than there is
> room for in edit summaries.
>
> Just to clarify, this does not mean that discussion
> of sources should
> be removed from articles entirely. Discussion of
> sources in the case
> where facts are disputed (outside of Wikipedia, that
> is) is of course
> relevant. But for undisputed facts, we already write
> "the Earth is
> round", not "according to NASA, the Earth is round".
>
> --
> Fredrik Johansson
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal

body:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:54:15 +1100, Robin Shannon
<robin.shannon at gmail.com> wrote:
> So how do germans usually pay for stuff online?

Bank transfers. You get the data from the receiver and make a bank
transfer. Or you give your data to the receiver, and they do the bank
transfer themselves.

Andre Engels


subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal


subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal

body:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:28:00 +0100, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:

> And worst of all, German banks treat requests for credit cards as
> if you were asking for a complimentary limo ride. They are really
> selective about who gets a credit card, because even they suffer
> from the above delusion (all the worse for their business) and try
> to let you feel that to be granted a credit card is a massive
> privilege which should inspire your perpetual loyalty.

Well, I think that's logical. Granting you a credit card means giving
you a credit. I don't know about American and British banks, but
European banks tend to give credit only to those who are expected to
be able to pay it back.

Andre Engels


subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal


from_name: Gerrit

subject: [WikiEN-l] citing for wikipedia

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> Quote from it only as much as you would from any encyclopedia, and cite it
> as you would any web page. If you want to cite the particular version you
> are referring to, click on the link to "Page history" and that will give
> you a pile of links to each version by date and time.

An old version can be referenced with &oldid=...
Is there a way to find the 'oldid' for the current version, so that one
can reference the version as it is now, with the guarantee that it will
be the same in the future?

regards,
Gerrit.

--
Weather in Lulea / Kallax, Sweden 17/12 14:20:
	3.0?C Broken clouds mostly cloudy wind 6.7 m/s S (34 m above NAP)
--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of
unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the
military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of
misplaced power exists and will persist.
    -Dwight David Eisenhower, January 17, 1961


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV and alleged phenomenon

body:
Robin Shannon wrote

> Is the word strawman/strawhorse argument a purely wikimedia thing,
> because i had never heard the phrase before i subscribed to these
> lists?

I was unfamiliar before my UseNet years, and assumed it (strawman) was an
artefact of North American college education (I presume you're in Australia;
I'm in the UK).  A little googling on this reinforces the impression that
this is standard in Composition 101 or suchlike, which hasn't crossed the
Atlantic.  Of course we Brits are second to none at actually doing this; but
we tend to call it "putting words into people's mouths".

Charles


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] Southern California Linux Expo

body:
As I've mentioned to a few people already, I've signed Wikimedia up for
a booth at the Southern California Linux Expo, which will be held in
Los Angeles on February 12 and 13, 2005. It's still a few weeks away,
but it would be great if I'm not the only one there to represent us. ;)

I can provide a computer to demo the sites (eg, let the visiting rabble
edit), but we probably want some distributable literature/discs of some
kind, and a nice poster display or something.

If anybody can show up and would like to help out, please list yourself:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/SCALE

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
As I've mentioned to a few people already, I've signed Wikimedia up for
a booth at the Southern California Linux Expo, which will be held in
Los Angeles on February 12 and 13, 2005. It's still a few weeks away,
but it would be great if I'm not the only one there to represent us. ;)

I can provide a computer to demo the sites (eg, let the visiting rabble
edit), but we probably want some distributable literature/discs of some
kind, and a nice poster display or something.

If anybody can show up and would like to help out, please list yourself:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/SCALE

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
As I've mentioned to a few people already, I've signed Wikimedia up for
a booth at the Southern California Linux Expo, which will be held in
Los Angeles on February 12 and 13, 2005. It's still a few weeks away,
but it would be great if I'm not the only one there to represent us. ;)

I can provide a computer to demo the sites (eg, let the visiting rabble
edit), but we probably want some distributable literature/discs of some
kind, and a nice poster display or something.

If anybody can show up and would like to help out, please list yourself:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/SCALE

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
As I've mentioned to a few people already, I've signed Wikimedia up for
a booth at the Southern California Linux Expo, which will be held in
Los Angeles on February 12 and 13, 2005. It's still a few weeks away,
but it would be great if I'm not the only one there to represent us. ;)

I can provide a computer to demo the sites (eg, let the visiting rabble
edit), but we probably want some distributable literature/discs of some
kind, and a nice poster display or something.

If anybody can show up and would like to help out, please list yourself:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/SCALE

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal

body:
On 17 Dec 2004, at 15:22, Douglas Jackson wrote:

> What e-gold article?
>

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold

or, more to the point:

	http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=E-gold&action=edit

Of course NPOV is sacrosanct here, cf.

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

-- and that ESPECIALLY goes for cases where the editor might have a
vested interest in the subject. (Attempts to e.g. put a positive spin
on an article are likely to lead to the frustrating experience of
seeing one's edits repeatedly reverted.)
But as long as you're following best NPOV practices: Happy editing.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Vacations/vacances

body:
Hi,

I will be on wikivacations till the 2nd of january.
I wish a merry christmas for those concerned, as well
as a successful meeting to developers.

Pour les curieux, je vais prendre des photos aux
alentours de Tamanrasset (Alg?rie), avec un objectif
officiel qui est le crat?re m?t?oritique d'Amguid en
passant par tin bider et Djanet.

http://www.image-contrails.de/algeria/index.html

Do not look for an internet encyclopedia on the area.
Information is quite poor :-)

Bonnes vacances pour ceux qui en ont :-)

ant

__________________________________
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The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Vacations/vacances


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [WikiEN-l] citing for wikipedia

body:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:06:55 +0100, Gerrit <gerrit at nl.linux.org> wrote:
> An old version can be referenced with &oldid=...
> Is there a way to find the 'oldid' for the current version, so that one
> can reference the version as it is now, with the guarantee that it will
> be the same in the future?

Not yet. The current version of the software doesn't assign an
'old_id' for the current version (basically because there is a
seperate store which contains the current version of every page, so
there is no need for one). Hopefully, this will be addressed in an
up-coming release.

See also http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268 and
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=181 (the second one has
some handy workarounds available with the new version 1.4, which is
almost finished, and already running on some wikis).

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: delirium at hackish.org

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Communs

body:
Quoting Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com>:

> Second, it is good to remind users of that list of
> this fact. When we use english all the time, people
> are lead to believe it is *mandatory* to write in
> english here. It is not
>
> I'll add that comments stating it is inappropriate to
> write in french on a multilingual list, and requesting
> an explanation, do not exactly help asserting the fact
> this mailing list *is* multilingual.

Kala pou mas to thhmises!  Tha allaxo ti glossa mou gia na milame oloi se
diaforetikes glosses. =]

-Mark

----------------------------------------------------------------
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subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Communs


subject: [Foundation-l] ignore the 7-month thread response...

body:
Using a webmail system I'm unfamiliar with that sorted messages in the reverse
order, so I inadvertantly replied to a 7-month old thread. =]

-Mark

----------------------------------------------------------------
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from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal

body:
So how do germans usually pay for stuff online?

paz y amor,
[[User:The bellman]]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:36:49 +0100, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> Germans commonly don't have
> credit cards (for some weird reason they're regarded as snobbish and
> elitist in Germany).

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


subject: [Foundation-l] e-gold proposal


subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV and alleged phenomenon

body:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:54:51 -0800 (PST), Robert <rkscience100 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is incorrect. Sometimes a definition *is* a
> falsifiable statement.  For example, someone could write
> "ESP is the method by which a human can do such-and-such."
> The very definition presumes that ESP exists, which itself
> is controversial.  No one has ever shown that any such
> phenomenon exists.  The same is true for telepathy,
> telekinesis, pyrokinesis, and dozens of other alleged
> phenomenon.
>

No its not. ESP (Extra-sensual perception) is the perseption of
extra-sensual stuff (or what ever the frig ESP is). That, ESP (in my,
and your, and Tony Blair's POV) is a load of baloney is irrelevent,
because whether ESP exists or not, does not change the fact that any
Extra-sensual perception ''''''IS'''''' ESP. Me and you and Tony Blair
don't believe that Extra-sensual perception exists, but we cant argue
with what it is, (even though what it is, is impossible.). We should
however note in the first paragragh that by far the majority of ppl
think that it is a load of baloney. (that was more rambling that i was
planning, but i hope you got my point.)

> Ex, you are making a strawhorse argument.  You are trying
> to deligitimize my basic argument by focusing on one
> example sentence that doesn't even exist in any article!

Is the word strawman/strawhorse argument a purely wikimedia thing,
because i had never heard the phrase before i subscribed to these
lists?

> In any case, many studies have proven that believers in UFO
> abductions also generally believe in ESP. This is not an
> "insult".  Perhaps it makes you uncomfortable to ackowledge
> the relationship between these beliefs, but the
> relationship is firmly established, even if you find it
> embarassing.

What studies? While i shall concede that there are certainly large
number of people who believe in both, i would also say that often,
fringe/crank groups will be just as disparaging of other fringe/cranck
groups to try and emphisis that thier idea is not a crank view.

peace, love and butterflies
paz, amor, y mariposas
[[User:The bellman]]

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] image copyright tag drive

body:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:34:43 +0100, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> I ran a (read-only) bot on [1], removing already tagged images, and
> adding hints to those that contain certain keywords. Would this be
> helpful for the other pages too, or is it rather distracting?

The bot's output looks helpful, and automatically removing tagged
images is also a very valuable service.  I would say you should run it
on all of them.

-Matt


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] citing for wikipedia

body:
speck912 at comcast.net (speck912 at comcast.net) [041217 22:06]:

> Hi, I'm doing a paper for my math class strangely enough and I was wondering how you cite in a paper for the Wikipedia Encyclopedia.  I don't want to plagiarize and I didn't know how to cite online encyclopedias.  If you could contact me back ASAP that would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

Quote from it only as much as you would from any encyclopedia, and cite it
as you would any web page. If you want to cite the particular version you
are referring to, click on the link to "Page history" and that will give
you a pile of links to each version by date and time.

- d.


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: e-gold proposal

body:
Andre Engels wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:28:00 +0100, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
>
>
>>And worst of all, German banks treat requests for credit cards as
>>if you were asking for a complimentary limo ride. They are really
>>selective about who gets a credit card, because even they suffer
>>from the above delusion (all the worse for their business) and try
>>to let you feel that to be granted a credit card is a massive
>>privilege which should inspire your perpetual loyalty.
>>
>>
>Well, I think that's logical. Granting you a credit card means giving
>you a credit. I don't know about American and British banks, but
>European banks tend to give credit only to those who are expected to
>be able to pay it back.
>
>
With American banks at least, they care less about whether you can pay
back the funds they've extended to you on credit, as long as you have
the ability to keep making payments on the interest. The companies
involved make perhaps as much money from the interest they charge people
who carry a balance on their credit cards as they do from the
transaction fees they charge merchants for using the system. With the
interest rates involved, you can end up paying for the credit line many
times over. As a result, the criteria for obtaining a credit card are
not focused on actual wealth assets, but simply whether you have an
income stream (i.e. a paying job).

The relative merits of either system, as this debate shows, depend on
your point of view. Glancing at some of our articles, [[de:Kreditkarte]]
gives at least some treatment of the question, but [[en:Credit card]]
seems to be a pretty US-centric article. Even so, de: has superior
coverage of the history of credit cards _in the US_, although its
readability suffers from being a mass of unbroken text, or what Die Zeit
called a "Textw?ste".

--Michael Snow


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: e-gold proposal


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

body:
In this article (
http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1374741,00.html )
Collins compares its new Living Dictionary - which takes submissions
from users - to Wikipedia.

Maybe this would be a good place to direct the authors of attempted
neologisms that end up getting deleted?

--Michael Snow


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Quarto

body:
Hello,

As a reminder, Wikimedia Quarto is the quaterly
publication which reports on the Wikimedia Foundation
activity, all wikimedia project, as well as evolution
and well-being of the community.

It is meant both for wikipedians and for outside
people who want a quick overview of the whole project.

The last issue is available here :
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/1/En
And exists entirely translated in 9 languages.

A publication is planned for january, and several
people are currently working on it to try to make it
the most informative possible.

If you are interested in joining a nice and very
international team, you are just welcome. Good english
is not required :-) We look for designers, editors,
photographs, translators etc...  and mostly, we need
to hear about you and your projects. This must be
emphasized for smaller projects as well. If there is
something special going on, we would love to hear
about it.

There is a special page dedicated to international.
You can place on it any information about your
language project, in your own language. Please, use
this, for example to report a future great event or a
grant or a local chapter brainstorming.

Also, if you have questions to ask to the board, on
which you would perhaps love that we make a public
statement, THIS IS THE PERFECT TIME. Ask us anything
:-) (send me a mail).

Discussion is live on the irc channel #quarto and
drafts and discussions are available here :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WQ/Draft

Your contact :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User%3ASj

Thanks :-)

Anthere

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subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Quarto


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Communs

body:
delirium at hackish.org a e'crit:
> Quoting Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com>:
>
>
>>Second, it is good to remind users of that list of
>>this fact. When we use english all the time, people
>>are lead to believe it is *mandatory* to write in
>>english here. It is not
>>
>>I'll add that comments stating it is inappropriate to
>>write in french on a multilingual list, and requesting
>>an explanation, do not exactly help asserting the fact
>>this mailing list *is* multilingual.
>
>
> Kala pou mas to thhmises!  Tha allaxo ti glossa mou gia na milame oloi se
> diaforetikes glosses. =]
>
> -Mark

Oui. Mais cela aide de mentionner quel est le language d'origine tout de me^m

....


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Communs


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: e-gold proposal

body:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:51:47 -0800, Michael Snow
<wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
> As a result, the criteria for obtaining a credit card are
> not focused on actual wealth assets, but simply whether you have an
> income stream (i.e. a paying job).

That's not much different in Europe, except that the minimum size of
that income stream might be higher here.

Andre Engels


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: e-gold proposal


list: commons-l

from_name: Daniel Kinzler

subject:
[Commons-l] Multi-language support (was re: Why not treat every
	page as a category?)

body:
For some reason, i'm not getting any mail from commons-l. I just found
this reply to my proposal (Why not treat every page as a category?) in
the archive and would like to answer it in the hope that the list will
work now. (full quote, because this mail also goes to wikitech-l, as it
is a request for a software feature)

Delphine (notafish) wrote:

> OK, I think I get the idea now.
>
> However, it still leaves open the discussion of multilingualism. If we
> want to allow for every language to put in their categories, or do a
> redirect, display will still be in whatever language has been
> considered default, and not of any use to non-default language
> speakers.
>
> On another note, while this may work for images, the display of other
> media files will be rendered very complicated if those files are not
> self-comprehensive, ie. if they're not named accoding to their
> content, in a language everybody understands.
>
> How do you plan to address that ?

Multi-Language-Support was not on my mind when I wrote that proposal.
But thinking about it, I belive by adding a few more feature we would be
able to cope with this, too. As I already wrote on [1], i would suggest
the following:

1) It was much discussed that it would be good to show the link-title
which is placed after the "|" in the category link in the category
listing/as the thumbnail label, in order to have meaningful names in
categories, especially for images. Also, as of 1.4 people can choose
their preferred interface languag. We could combine those two features
with the concept of named parameters [[...|foo=bar|...]] as used with
templates:

Allow a category-link to look like this:

    [[category:something|Something|de=Irgendwas|jp=....]]

giving a default label and labels for specific languages. Then, when
building the category listing, use the label corresponding to the users
interface language, if it is given. If not, use the default label. The
label should be used for sorting, and should be shown as the link
text/thumbnail label respectively.

2) Maybe one could even use the same concept to implement localized
image labels: [[Image:Foobar.png|The Foo bar|de=Der Fuh-Balken|jp=...]]
- that should not be too hard.

3) The one think still missing would be localizing the name of the
page/category. Maybe an #ALIAS [[category:xyz]] directive could be added
for categories (or the categorisation-aspect of pages, as by my original
proposal): If #ALIAS [[Foo]] is placed in category/article Bar, plages
and images added to cat Foo and to cat Bar would end up in the same
"pool". The Pages for Foo and Bar would have different textual content
and titles, but would list the exact same articles, images and
subcategories. Subcategories would need some more thought, though,
because in the german cat I want to have the german names of the
subcategories, etc.

Dolphin already said on [1] there that he likes my first idea.  what do
you think?
And especially to the developers - how hard would it be to do that?

d.

[1]: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/COM:VP#More_on_categories
--
Homepage: http://brightbyte.de


from_name: Creme

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Proposed to set up a Cantonese Wikipedia

body:
information from http://www.ethnologue.org/show_language.asp?code=YUH

CHINESE, YUE: a language of China
      SIL code:  YUH
      ISO 639-1: zh
      ISO 639-2(B):  chi
      ISO 639-2(T): zho

      Population 52,000,000 in mainland China, 4.5% of the population (1984). Includes 498,000 in Macau. Population total all countries 71,000,000 (1999 WA).
      Region Spoken in Guangdong (except for the Hakka speaking areas especially in the northeast, the Min Nan speaking areas of the east, at points along the coast as well as Hainan Island), Macau, and in the southern part of Guangxi. Also possibly in Laos. Also spoken in Australia, Brunei, Canada, Costa Rica, Honduras, Indonesia (Java and Bali), Malaysia (Peninsular), Mauritius, Nauru, Netherlands, New Zealand, Panama, Philippines, Singapore, South Africa, Thailand, United Kingdom, USA, Viet Nam.
      Alternate names   YUET YUE, GWONG DUNG WAA, CANTONESE, YUE, YUEH, YUEYU, BAIHUA
      Dialects YUEHAI (GUANGFU, HONG KONG CANTONESE, MACAU CANTONESE, SHATOU, SHIQI, WANCHENG), SIYI (SEIYAP, TAISHAN, TOISAN, HOISAN, SCHLEIYIP), GAOLEI (GAOYANG), QINLIAN, GUINAN.
      Classification Sino-Tibetan, Chinese.
      Comments The Guangzhou variety is considered the standard. Subdialects of Yuehai are Xiangshan, spoken around Zhongshan and Shuhai, and Wanbao around Dongwan City and Bao'an County. Official language. Grammar. SVO; prepositions; genitives, relatives after noun heads; articles, adjectives, numerals before noun heads; word order mainly distinguishes subjects, objectives, indirect objects; passives usually indicated by adding a word in front of the verb; tonal. Outside of mainland China, many Cantonese-specific characters are used in the writing system. TV. Bible 1894-1981.

Also spoken in:
      Brunei    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Population 3,500 in Brunei, 6.93% of ethnic Chinese (1979).
            Alternate names   YUE, YUEH, CANTONESE
            Comments Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

      Costa Rica    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Population 4,500 including Mandarin and Hakka speakers (1981 MARC).
            Alternate names   YUE, YUEH, CANTONESE
            Comments Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

      Indonesia (Java and Bali)    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Population 180,000 in Indonesia (1982 CCCOWE).
            Alternate names   CANTONESE, YUE, YUEH
            Comments Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

      Malaysia (Peninsular)    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Population 748,010 in Malaysia, including 704,286 in Peninsular Malaysia, 24,640 in Sarawak, 19,184 in Sabah (1980 census).
            Alternate names   CANTONESE, YUE, YUEH
            Dialects CANTONESE, TOISHANESE.
            Comments Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

      Panama    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Alternate names   YUE, YUEH, CANTONESE
            Comments Bilingualism in Spanish. Merchants. Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

      Philippines    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Population 6,000 to 7,200 or 1.2% of Chinese population (1982 CCCOWE).
            Comments Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

      Singapore    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Population 314,000 speakers in Singapore (1985), 12.3% of the population, out of 338,000 in the ethnic group (1993).
            Alternate names   CANTONESE, YUE, YUEH, GUANGFU
            Comments Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

      Thailand    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Population 29,400 in Thailand, .5% of Chinese-speaking Chinese in Thailand (1984 estimate).
            Alternate names   CANTONESE, YUE, YUEH
            Comments Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

      Viet Nam    Language name   CHINESE, YUE
            Population 900,000 in Viet Nam (1993 Dang Nghiem Van).
            Alternate names   SU?NG PH?NG, QUANG DONG, HAI NAM, HA XA PHANG, MINH HUONG, CHINESE NUNG, NUNG, LOWLAND NUNG, HOA, HAN, TRI?U CHAU, PH?C KI?N, LIEM CHAU, SAMG PHANG
            Comments Renowned fighters. Came from Canton, China as railroad workers and soldiers several decades ago. They are not the same as the Nung in the Tai family or the Tibeto-Burman Nung (Nu) of China and Myanmar. Chinese calligraphy. Daoist, Christian. Bible 1894-1981. See main entry under China.

Entries from the SIL Bibliography about this language:
  Huang Yuanwei. 1997. "The interaction between Zhuang and the Yue (Cantonese) dialects."

  Shepherd. 2000. "Messages from a treasure box."


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: e-gold proposal

body:
Andre Engels schreef:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:54:15 +1100, Robin Shannon
> <robin.shannon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So how do germans usually pay for stuff online?
>
>
> Bank transfers. You get the data from the receiver and make a bank
> transfer. Or you give your data to the receiver, and they do the bank
> transfer themselves.
>
> Andre Engels

And that will only increase. MasterCard is working on a system so that
you can pay whit Maestro, the direct debit function of payment cards
used in most of the EU. You will need a card reader for this. But
because of the introduction of the electronic identity card many people
will have a card reader.

--
[[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]]


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: e-gold proposal


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Farsi and Sanskrit

body:
Hoi,
FYI there are two new wiktionaries being worked on; they are
fa:wiktionary and sa:wiktionary. Both have no first character
capitalisation.

The Persian wiktionary is started because there is a language training
in wikibooks for Farsi. It is currently teaching the characters in the
alphabet, some words and their pronunciation. A teacher of Farsi I know
is experimenting with using skype with her pupils and, finding if/how it
stimulates kids to have a resource on the internet.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Magosányi Árpád

subject: [Foundation-l] Project proposal

body:
Hi!

I would like to refer to the mission statement of Wikinews
(I could not find one for wikipedia).

"Wikinews is founded on the idea that we want to create something new,
rather than destroy something old."
"We invite you to join us in this effort which has the potential to
change the world forever."
"an open decision-making process"

This is what I think of an open decision-making process:

http://fsr.lme.hu/wiki/EDemocracy
(feel free to comment/amend it)

This could be started as an experiment with decision making
in an already open community, be evolved to be a device to
explain citisens' ideas about the ways the political elite
should have been following (if the software would be ready,
I would start debating about the copyright and patent law
of my country right now using it:), and maybe it could change
the world forever...

Well, first the software should be written.

What do you think about it?

--
GNU GPL: csak tiszta forr?sb?l


subject: [Foundation-l] Project proposal


from_name: d a

subject: [Wiktionary-l] capitals

body:
Hello!!

I would like to ask you to be so kind as to switch off
the first letter capitalization in the Hungarian (hu)
Croatian (hr) and the kishwahili / Swahlil (sw)
wiktionaries.

thanks in advance

Dubaduba

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Project proposal

body:
A levelez?m azt hiszi, hogy Magos?nyi ?rp?d a k?vetkez?eket ?rta:
>
> http://fsr.lme.hu/wiki/EDemocracy
> (feel free to comment/amend it)

User: anonymous
Passwd: anonymous

Sorry for forgetting to mention it.

--
GNU GPL: csak tiszta forr?sb?l


subject: [Foundation-l] Project proposal


from_name: Sj

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Quarto

body:
For all of you linguaphiles out there, the first sections will be
ready for translation starting this week.  To keep up with
translations, watch [[m:WQ/Translation]] and [[m:Translation
requests]], or just add yourself to the translators mailing list :
      http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l

To join the team of editors, designers, and interviewers, see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WQ/Team , or sign up for the newsletter
mailing list :
      http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/quarto-l

With winter cheer and quartile love,
      Sj

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 03:46:54 -0800 (PST), Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> As a reminder, Wikimedia Quarto is the quaterly
> publication which reports on the Wikimedia Foundation
> activity, all wikimedia project, as well as evolution
> and well-being of the community.
>
> It is meant both for wikipedians and for outside
> people who want a quick overview of the whole project.
>
> The last issue is available here :
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/1/En
> And exists entirely translated in 9 languages.
>
> A publication is planned for january, and several
> people are currently working on it to try to make it
> the most informative possible.
>
> If you are interested in joining a nice and very
> international team, you are just welcome. Good english
> is not required :-) We look for designers, editors,
> photographs, translators etc...  and mostly, we need
> to hear about you and your projects. This must be
> emphasized for smaller projects as well. If there is
> something special going on, we would love to hear
> about it.
>
> There is a special page dedicated to international.
> You can place on it any information about your
> language project, in your own language. Please, use
> this, for example to report a future great event or a
> grant or a local chapter brainstorming.
>
> Also, if you have questions to ask to the board, on
> which you would perhaps love that we make a public
> statement, THIS IS THE PERFECT TIME. Ask us anything
> :-) (send me a mail).
>
> Discussion is live on the irc channel #quarto and
> drafts and discussions are available here :
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WQ/Draft
>
> Your contact :
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User%3ASj
>
> Thanks :-)
>
> Anthere
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
+sj+
 _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Quarto


subject: [Foundation-l] Quarto news : first newsletter rundown

body:
Inaugural Quarto news, in brief :

Finished HTML newsletters are available in English, French, German,
Italian, Japanese,  Polish, Spanish, Swedish, and Chinese.  We have
good partial translations in Arabic and Korean, and the founder's
letter was also translated into Dutch, Kannada, and Finnish.
Please distribute links to the appropriate newsletter when explaining
Wikimedia in other languages.

Finished newsletters online :
     http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto
Partial newsletter translations : see the language-list at the top of
     http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WQ/1/En:

REMINDERS:
* There is a separate low-traffic mailing list for people interested
in working on the newsletter (quarto-l) and another for translation of
this and other project-wide content (translators-l)

* There are sign-up lists for people who want PDF or print versions of
the newsletter
     http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WQ

* We interviewed Larry Lessig and Brad Fitzpatrick for the second newsletter.
Who to interview next is still up in the air.  Please add to the list of
suggested interviewees here :
     http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia Quarto/Interviews

* Letters to the editor and content submissions (of clever images, quotes,
or articles about local projects) can be sent to : newsletter at wikimedia.org

          ========================================

Aurevilly did some magnificent work on the cover, and produced something
both beautiful and easy to internationalize, capturing the joyful
spirit of this
past year.  It still gives me pleasure every time I see it, and that is probably
how I will always remember The Year Before The Year Of The Wiki.
    http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Image:Newsletter_1_Cover_FR_800px.png

I was also regularly surprised by the enthusiastic body of translators,
who invested more time into the newsletter production than anyone else.
Aphaia in particular has devoted herself to translation and helping others
do the same, and is now helping with much of the development of the
second newsletter.  Most recently, hpnadig has hacked out a Kannada
translation of the first newsletter, and is excited about using it to teach
people in India about Wikipedia.

More recently, the number of active translators for Translation of the Week
has grown to include 30 languages; I hope there will be letters, project
reports, and other content submissions from each of those languages in the
future.

Glad tidings to all,
   +sj+


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Wiki Translations of Greek/Roman/XYZ classics

body:
Viktor Horvath wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I dropped some lines about this idea about two months ago. Now, I
> wrote a more detailed plan which is available from
>
> http://www.steckenpferde.de/wiki-translations/
>
> and I also made a reference on Meta's "Talk:Proposals for new
> projects" page. I'm not calling for a "proposal" as it can be
> integrated into an existing project like wikisource. But what can I do
> to promote this idea further?

Much of this fits in with my own vision of Wikisource.  I have myself
raised the question of co-ordinated side-by-side boxes (or panes) to
facilitate translations, and footnoting.  Two or three such panes seem
workable, more would probably result in unduly narrow columns.

Your edition management and pdf conversion ideas are interesting, but
should probably be deferred until after we have accomodated translations
and annotations.

All we need is for some developer to be sufficiently inspired by the
idea.  Until then we just need to be patient, and limit ourselves to the
occasional friendly reminder to make sure that the idea does not get
forgotten.

Ec


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Questions about recusal

body:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> Has everyone voted?

No. Don't know who to vote for. Haven't had time to look at who would
be doing a good job. Looking at last names for appealing ones does
not, imho, constitute enough research on which to base a vote.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Categories

body:
Hoi,
At the moment we have several BIG categories in use in many
wiktionaries. There are even bigger categories in wikipedia. The w:de:
Mann directory for instance has over 22.000 articles ... The problem is
that at this moment they break the capacity of the servers to cope.
Therefore there are temporary restrictions on the size of what is shown
in a category.

This means that for instance the wikt:nl:Categorie:Woorden in het
Nederlands will not show all its entries. As this is temporary and as
the developpers are working for a proper solution, there is no need to
change the way we work. We just need to wait for the developpers to come
up with a solution.

There is also no need to pester the developpers about this one; they ARE
working on it.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Viktor Horvath

body:
Hello,

I dropped some lines about this idea about two months ago. Now, I wrote a
more detailed plan which is available from

http://www.steckenpferde.de/wiki-translations/

and I also made a reference on Meta's "Talk:Proposals for new projects"
page. I'm not calling for a "proposal" as it can be integrated into an
existing project like wikisource. But what can I do to promote this idea
further?


body:
Hello Ray,

>Your edition management and pdf conversion ideas are interesting, but
>should probably be deferred until after we have accomodated translations
>and annotations.

Of course, the two-pane layout and annotations are the most important. The
pdf conversion can wait, yes. But I think the edition management is
essential; at least, the possibility of two translations to coexist is
essential, as one cannot imagine that all the translators agree on a
specific translation.

>All we need is for some developer to be sufficiently inspired by the idea.
>Until then we just need to be patient, and limit ourselves to the
>occasional friendly reminder to make sure that the idea does not get
>forgotten.

OK, thanks! It's much more comforting not to wait alone :-)

Have a nice Christmas,
Viktor.


from_name: blankfaze

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration Committee term lengths

body:
I realise that the lengths of ArbCom terms are set by Jimbo, and
whilst I recognise his authority in such matters, I would like to
postulate that the length of the terms is perhaps excessive.

I say this not as a losing candidate in the recent election but merely
as a concerned Wikipedian.  Two and three years is a looong time,
especially on the internet.  I think that (especially given the -50%
returns of 6 "winners" in the recent elections) terms so long only
perpetuate notions that Wikipedia is somehow run by a cabal.

I myself would prefer the terms to be staggered at six months, twelve
months, and eighteen months.  However, I realise some people would be
concerned about going through the nasty election process every six
months.  So perhaps we should develop better election procedure.  Or
perhaps 12-18-24 months would be more feasible.

Just some thoughts.


from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

body:
Hiho,

Viktor Horvath wrote:

>>Your edition management and pdf conversion ideas are interesting, but
>>should probably be deferred until after we have accomodated translations
>>and annotations.
>
> Of course, the two-pane layout and annotations are the most important. The
> pdf conversion can wait, yes. But I think the edition management is
> essential; at least, the possibility of two translations to coexist is
> essential, as one cannot imagine that all the translators agree on a
> specific translation.

As much as people can't agree on the content of _one_ encyclopedia
article? Sorry, I have to object. The genial thing about wikis is that
it allows people to work in cooperation on one translation and improve
it as best as possible.

Wikipedia is the proof that this concept works and I can't imagine why
it shouldn't work for translations, too. Implementing features to create
  several translation versions means wasting the central advantage of a
wiki: collaboration.

>>All we need is for some developer to be sufficiently inspired by the idea.
>>Until then we just need to be patient, and limit ourselves to the
>>occasional friendly reminder to make sure that the idea does not get
>>forgotten.
>
> OK, thanks! It's much more comforting not to wait alone :-)

In my experience, waiting for the perfect software is the wrong way to
go. Nobody is going to program stuff for a project which might or might
not take off. There are more pressings things needed for the existing
ones...

So...start now in wikisource, with the possibilities which exist -
translations can be done with the table markup, putting text and
translation in small parts beside each other. And if there's content and
people working on translations, you will probably find an enthusiast who
improves the software according to what is needed.

greetings,
elian


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

body:
I fully agree with everything Blankfaze just said. Even the board was only
elected for one year.

Danny


body:
Hi,

>As much as people can't agree on the content of _one_ encyclopedia article?
>Sorry, I have to object. The genial thing about wikis is that it allows
>people to work in cooperation on one translation and improve it as best as
>possible.

well, here we disagree. To me, an encyclopedia article and a translation are
inherently different. The one's a definition and rather a science, the other
one rather an art. Just because one thing works, you can of course *try* it
with other things, too, but you can't possibly say: It *will* work.

Did you ever do a translation of a *belletristic* work? You see, with
technical articles, it would be probably no problem to agree on a simple,
understandable translation. With literature and philosophy, it's impossible.
There are strict translations, free translations, congenial translations.
While on each of these fields people can collaborate and cooperate, they're
as different as rock music and classical music, or as Dutch painting of the
16th century and Picasso. And every style has its right to exist! You can't
judge which is the best one, as you can't find an objective winner between
music styles. It's just a matter of taste. That's the genial thing about
art. At least in my opinion. Whereas an encyclopedia article should contain
only checkable facts, and you can well discuss about facts.

>Implementing features to create  several translation versions means wasting
>the central advantage of a wiki: collaboration.

No. There can be lots of people who collaborate for one style of
translation. If that were wasting of ressources, wouldn't maintaining Wikis
for languages which only very few people speak be a much bigger waste? The
authors could be writing for more widespread languages... but they don't,
and they're perfectly right: They can decide where to spend their time. The
same holds for translations.

>In my experience, waiting for the perfect software is the wrong way to go.
>Nobody is going to program stuff for a project which might or might not
>take off. There are more pressings things needed for the existing ones...

Well, I don't blame someone if he doesn't want to do so or has no time. I
have no time either, at least not at the moment, as I have lots to do for
other free projects... I just hoped to find someone who is also fascinated
by an idea like this. You're right, starting is better than waiting... but,
if I had to start something now and had enough time, I'd probably try to
patch the Wiki source or do the whole thing manually by coordinating people
in good old mailing lists like in the times before...

Greetings,
Viktor.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Painting copyright

body:
The copyright laws of the United States, which require actual
creativity, would seem to argue that photographs of paintings are not
derivative works in themselves - no new copyright is created, and the
only copyright in question is that of the original work.  After all,
the aim of the copier is to reproduce the painting as accurately as
possible.  A perfect copy should have no changes whatsoever; such
change as there is are undesirable errors, not creativity.

There is some, but not much, case law in this area.  The Corel
Corporation was involved in a lawsuit that established some precedent
here, where it was decided that copying digital images of out of
copyright works was not a violation.  Some argue that this is not a
good precedent since the plaintiff admitted that the digitization was
"slavish"; they argue that this admission should not have been made.
However, others argue that the slavishness of the  reproduction was
self-evident and indeed the precise intention of the reproduction of
the painting.

The laws in other nations differ in what qualifies for copyright
protection.  In this matter, treaties like the Berne Convention offer
little help, since US courts have ruled that the scope of what is
copyrightable as it applies in the US even for works of foreign origin
is entirely defined by US law.

-Matt (User:Morven) who is entirely not a lawyer.  As with all free
advice, this may be worth only what you paid for it.


body:
Robin Shannon wrote:

>I would also suggest that until such a time as there is obvious
>disagreements between those who are translating literaly, and those
>who arent, there should only be one version (since it will make it
>easier to write a literal, or poetic or whatever translation, if you
>already have a rough translation to start with.)
>
>I also think that this would be another place where my suggestion of a
>reference tab (to go with the main article and talk tabs) for
>foot/endnote would be of great use.
>
>
While I can appreciate the occasional need for several translation
versions, I don"t think that it is a realistic prospect in the near
future.  Before there is a second translation of a work there needs to
be a first one.  We can probably put that discussion on the shelf until
the circumstances present themselves.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] 21C3 - wikimedia workshop

body:
Hello,

Among the many wikipedia events on this year's Chaos Communication
Congress in Berlin, Angela and I will hold a workshop on wikimedia and
the wikimedia projects.

I want to invite everybody to join us there. This won't be a
presentation, but a casual meeting where we want to discuss topics which
are important to wikipedians.

If you want to participate, help us with setting the agenda on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/21C3/Wikimedia_workshop

More informations about the congress and the wikimedia events there can
be found on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/21C3
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/21C3/MediaWiki_developer_conference

greetings,
elian
----
Und auf deutsch ;-)

Auf dem Chaos Communication Congress in Berlin werden Angela und ich
einen Workshop zu Wikimedia und den Wikimedia-Projekten halten, zu dem
ich alle herzlich einladen m?chte.

Da das kein Vortrag werden soll, sondern eher eine interessante
Diskussionsrunde, ist euer Input gefragt:

Was w?nscht ihr euch f?r diese Veranstaltung? Bitte setzt eure
Vorschl?ge auf <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/21C3/Wikimedia_workshop>,
damit wir eine Agenda zusammenstellen k?nnen.

F?r die Kurzentschlossenen:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chaos_Communication_Congress

liebe Gr??e,
elian


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Arbitration Committee term lengths

body:
Angela wrote:

>I don't think three years is excessive. It might seem a long time
>since Wikipedia is a relatively young project
>
It seems like a long time not just because Wikipedia is young, but
because realistically, it is a very long-term commitment relatively to
the contributing lifespan of quite a few Wikipedians. Turnover and
attrition will happen among arbitrators as well.

>but the experience
>which arbitrators will build up during that three year period will be
>invaluable in assisting them in making good decisions.
>
>
Sure, IFF they are actually developing experience in the arbitration
process during that period.

The combination of these factors leads me to conclude that the issue is
not with the three-year term per se, but that arbitrators need to
recognize whether they are serving effectively and be prepared to step
aside if not, even if it's before their term ends. I think there is an
obvious problem when an arbitrator who has not really been active in the
process at all still has two years left to serve, and based on the past
year there is no reason to seriously expect this arbitrator to begin
participating. No experience is being gained by anyone that way.

If arbitrators resign responsibly when they recognize that they won't be
able to serve effectively, they can be replaced and the process will
function more smoothly. I commend Martin and Camembert for taking this
step. In many systems, elected officials may resign before the ends of
their terms, and a mechanism is available to replace them. We did this
earlier this year with Jwrosenzweig and Raul654.

I understand that going through election cycles too often can be a
little draining. To be honest, I don't care that much whether interim
appointments are handled by special election. I would be fine with
letting the Board of Trustees appoint interim arbitrators, and just
adding these positions to the regular election at the end of the year.

This is similar to the model in my own local jurisdiction. We have
elected judges, but frequently there are mid-term vacancies (resulting
from resignations due to retirement, advancement, other career
opportunities, and occasionally death). Such vacancies are filled
through appointment by the executive branch of government, until the
next election. I haven't observed any significant problems with this
system, unless you simply have philosophical concerns about whether
judges should be elected at all.

--Michael Snow


subject: [WikiEN-l] Painting copyright

body:
Robin Shannon wrote:

>The copyright on the paintings of the great masters are obviously all
>well out of date, however, does this mean that straight photos of
>these are uncopyrightable? Or are they like translations of the
>classics which are copyrightable. It just seems that not enough has
>been down by taking a photo (or photocopying or scanning or however
>the hell it is that art galleries make thier pictures of paintings) to
>really justify calling it a new work in its own right.
>
>Anyone know the answer? Even any unqualified people want to take a
>stab at guessing the answer?
>
>Also if they are copyrightable, does anyone know of any place where
>there are PD/open license pics of the works of the great masters?
>
>
The copyrightability of photographs of Paintings that are in the public
domain has been a matter of considerable dispute both here and
elsewhere.  I support the view that they are not copyright because there
is not enough creative effort involved.

Ec


from_name: Charles Fulton

body:
> blankfaze wrote:
> > So perhaps we should develop better election procedure.
>
> Perhaps we could scrap the election procedure and just have a simple
> support/oppose vote whenever someone feels like running for it like we
> do for admins?

I don't know that we really want or need that many arbitrators in the
system. If these elections seemed ugly, imagine what a perpetual
Requests for Arbitratorship would be like.  Also, I think Arbcom
should develop an institutional memory so that its rulings are
consistent, and that would be hard to do with a fluid membership.

Charles (Mackensen)


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wiktionary-l] upgrade

body:
On Dec 21, 2004, at 12:41 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> As of the moment of writing this, wiktionary is being upgraded to
> release 1.4. So until it is done, it is better to be carefull.

The upgrade is done. Wikis are many and volunteer server admins are
few, so please make sure you tell us about any exciting new problems
we've missed...

Bug reports to http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/ please.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Questions about recusal

body:
Christopher Mahan (chris_mahan at yahoo.com) [041221 03:59]:
> --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> > Has everyone voted?

> No. Don't know who to vote for. Haven't had time to look at who would
> be doing a good job. Looking at last names for appealing ones does
> not, imho, constitute enough research on which to base a vote.

You should vote for the tallest guy. He's always the best one.

- d.


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Painting copyright

body:
Ordinary pictures of out of copyright paintings remain in the public domain,
after all, a photograph is just a copy. The usual issue arises when you
attempt to photograph the picture itself while it is in a venue controled by
its owner or licensee who may attempt to impose restrictions on what you may
do while you are in the space.

Fred

> From: Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:39:31 +1100
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Painting copyright
>
> The copyright on the paintings of the great masters are obviously all
> well out of date, however, does this mean that straight photos of
> these are uncopyrightable? Or are they like translations of the
> classics which are copyrightable. It just seems that not enough has
> been down by taking a photo (or photocopying or scanning or however
> the hell it is that art galleries make thier pictures of paintings) to
> really justify calling it a new work in its own right.
>
> Anyone know the answer? Even any unqualified people want to take a
> stab at guessing the answer?
>
> Also if they are copyrightable, does anyone know of any place where
> there are PD/open license pics of the works of the great masters?
>
> Paz, amor y Pap? Noel,
> rjs,
> [[User:The bellman]]
>
> --
> hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
> jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au
>
> This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
> Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Angela

body:
I don't think three years is excessive. It might seem a long time
since Wikipedia is a relatively young project, but the experience
which arbitrators will build up during that three year period will be
invaluable in assisting them in making good decisions.

If there is a danger that people will feel "Wikipedia is somehow run
by a cabal" then I believe the solution to that is to enlarge the size
of the arbitration committee, not to reduce the length of time
arbitrators can serve.

Having elections more regularly could negatively affect the way
arbitrators work, since they would be more concerned about getting
re-elected than doing the job for which they were elected. The
election process should not be allowed to interfere with the workings
of the committee, and I believe that making arbitrators go through
this so regularly could be damaging.

Angela
(just my view, not necessarily that of the Foundation)


body:
Right, it isn't doing things poorly that is the problem, but doing nothing
at all, but still filling the slot. So we wait and wait for someone who will
neither propose anything nor vote for or against others proposals.

Fred

> From: Michael Snow <wikipedia at earthlink.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:04:13 -0800
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Arbitration Committee term lengths
>
> I think there is an
> obvious problem when an arbitrator who has not really been active in the
> process at all still has two years left to serve, and based on the past
> year there is no reason to seriously expect this arbitrator to begin
> participating. No experience is being gained by anyone that way.


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

body:
I agree with Angela completely.  The real problem I see with 3 years
is just that experience shows that many arbcom members will not stick
around that long -- the job is just too exhausting.

On the other hand, elections are quite stressful for the candidates
as well.

My plan is to watch the caseload and possibly expand the committee
with new appointments fairly quickly if it seems warranted.

Angela wrote:

> I don't think three years is excessive. It might seem a long time
> since Wikipedia is a relatively young project, but the experience
> which arbitrators will build up during that three year period will be
> invaluable in assisting them in making good decisions.
>
> If there is a danger that people will feel "Wikipedia is somehow run
> by a cabal" then I believe the solution to that is to enlarge the size
> of the arbitration committee, not to reduce the length of time
> arbitrators can serve.
>
> Having elections more regularly could negatively affect the way
> arbitrators work, since they would be more concerned about getting
> re-elected than doing the job for which they were elected. The
> election process should not be allowed to interfere with the workings
> of the committee, and I believe that making arbitrators go through
> this so regularly could be damaging.
>
> Angela
> (just my view, not necessarily that of the Foundation)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
"La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


references:
<41C7E70D.80000@earthlink.net> <BDED5A7B.9D33%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<530912670412210418316ab85e@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Rebecca wrote:
> In this circumstances, why don't we have a means for replacing arbitrators?

This is entirely possible.  I doubt if we need a formal mechanism for
this, I can just do it if there seems to be reasonable consensus that
it makes sense.

> There's absolutely no reason why said arbitrator should be allowed to
> continue serving - he wasn't elected, he's done basically nothing in
> months, and he's been approached about the matter several times, with,
> as far as I can see, no response. While we've just had elections, now
> seems to me to be the perfect time to do something - there's a couple
> of people who only missed out by one or two votes who would be quite
> capable replacements.

I agree with this completely.  Will you research for me which arbs
have been least active, and I'll email to ask them about their plans
for the future, and then make some decisions.  There's no indignity in
people stepping down because they won't have time to deal with it.

The workload of arbitration can be daunting, and when some arbitrators
don't have time, the others have to take up the slack.  So it makes
sense for the committee to be filled with active members.

--Jimbo


from_name: Muke Tever

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Doing things we used to be able to do,
	in the new upgrade

body:
All right, I found one thing:
The page that was at [[Wiktionary:Recentchanges]] (which on en: for example
was a list of useful links, and a short list of requested articles) has been
superseded by [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]].

Now, you help me. :p  It used to be that a few wiktionaries edited
[[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] to allow users to click and insert necessary
special characters... but it seems it is no longer possible to insert the script
(/style/wikibits.js) to allow this. Is there a workaround, or a better way to do
it now, or will it just have to revert to a copy-and-paste plain-text list?

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


from_name: Theresa Knott

body:
>  Also, I think Arbcom
> should develop an institutional memory so that its rulings are
> consistent, and that would be hard to do with a fluid membership.

Actually I don't think memory is good enough. To be consistant  the
Arbcom should formulate guidlines for rulings:

Repetedly breaking the 3RR on certain pages ----> Ban from editing
those pages for 3 month

Repeated personal attacks -----> Personal attack parole  (like irisimeisters)

Abuse of admin powers (!st instance) ------> instruced not to use
admin powers for 3 months

And so on. Obviously each case is different and so the punishments
can't be rigid, but having a guidline will keep the process fair, and
will make formulating a ruling easier.

Theresa


body:
I don't think the line to draw is between translation and encyclopedia
writing. It is more between art and science.

Translation of a technical document, or legal, mathematical, or
scientific for that matter, would rather be straightforward. People
can agree on things easily. There could even be a set of glossaries
or standards they can refer to.

Translation of a literary work could be more difficult to agree on.
But this is not impossible, I think. For example, a short poetry
could be translated in many different ways and they would be equally
valid. But if people know that they have to agree on one version,
they will come to agreement somehow. Since it is under a free
license, people can publish different versions elsewhere. Or, for fun
and out of respect to each other or diverse views, they may come to agree
to make different versions, each occupying one revision in the database,
and offer a link to those revisions from the current version so that
readers can compare and enjoy.

When the work to be translated is large in volume, it needs a lot more
coordination. It is like creating a wikibook or a set of wikipedia
articles. They have to decide on certain editorial policies. There
are many different policy options, and some of them would be equally
valid. But again, because they know there is only one set of options
to be chosen, they can come to agreement.

I have translated various documents on wiki between Japanese and English,
some more like an essay others more like a set of rules. My general experience
is that wiki process is helpful. Translating something alone is not as fun.

I do think, though, that in case of literally works, offering multiple translations
is something valuable, something in line with the neutral point of view policy
that we value so much. So it is nice to have some way to help development of
multiple versions of translations. But since Mediawiki preserve
all past revisions in the database, this can be done. Additional feature is
definitely nice, though not necessary.

Regards,

Tomos

----- Original Message -----
From: Viktor Horvath <duke586 at hotmail.com>
To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
Sent: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:58:47 +0100
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wiki Translations of Greek/Roman/XYZ classics


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wiktionary-l] More capitalisation

body:
Hoi,
As a consequence of the request on this list I have asked the developers
to change the capitalisation for hu hr and sw (Hungarian, Croatian and
Swahili) They were so good to do this :)
Thanks to jeronim for doing the deed :)

Thanks,
   GerardM


subject: [Wiktionary-l] upgrade

body:
As of the moment of writing this, wiktionary is being upgraded to
release 1.4. So until it is done, it is better to be carefull.
Thanks,
    Gerard


from_name: steven l. rubenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration committee term lengths

body:
I agree with Blankfaze and Danny that three year terms are too long.  Isn't
it one of the points of computers that they speed things up?  Three years
in the wikiworld is a very, very, long time.  Shorter term limits are a
matter not only of  preventing the establishment of a cabal (or the
appearance of one); it will help prevent burn-out and of course encourage
greater participation on the part of others.

I understand Angela's concern about experience, but I think that requiring
candidates for AC to have been around for a certain amount of time, or
having done a certain number of edits, will guarantee a minimum amount of
experience at Wikipedia, and staggered terms will help ensure a continuity
of experience on the committee.

Steve

Steven L. Rubenstein
Associate Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701


from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: When is an oil painting "published?"

body:
Well, since the topic has been raised, there's another question I'm curious about.

I think in the U. S. publication is the key to copyright. For sure, unpublished letters can be copyrighted when they surface, even if they were written over a century ago.

Millet's Le Semeur was painted in 1850, but when was it "published?" What constitutes publication for an oil painting which isn't mass-produced? Is it published when it's exhibited in a gallery? If so, then no problem (for most famous classic old paintings).

Otherwise, do you need to research when the first printed reproduction was published? Truly "slavish" color reproductions weren't cheap and common (and used in textbooks and encyclopedias and magazines) until, oh, maybe the 1930s.

So, if "published" means "printed" then printed reproductions that are old enough to be in the public domain would be hand-tinted engravings, or chromolithographs (or whatever the Currier and Ives things are called), or black-and-white photos.  Which are significantly different enough from a color photo of the same painting.

Just wondering...


subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Uploading soundfiles to Commons using the
	pywikipediabot

body:
Hoi,
I have been uploading LOADS of soundfiles to Commons. I would like to
have more people upload soundfiles to Commons. The big thing people hate
to do is the uploading itself. They are willing to record in .ogg they
are willing to make it conform to the naming convention but the
uploading and the subsequent copyright message is disliked to the extend
that people are not willing to do it.

Given the functionality that already exists in the pywikipediabot, it
should not be too difficult to have a directory with files conforming to
xx.word.ogg (xx is the ISO-639 code, word is the word or phrase) and
upload them to Commons. I use the following message for copyright:

eigen opname. [[User:GerardM|GerardM]]
{{GFDL}}

[[Category:Farsi pronunciation|?????]]

Eigen opname: could be changed to Own recording:
Farsi is the ISO-639 for fa (Persian).

Please let me know if this is possible and, if you are willing to create
this bot for us.

Thanks,
GerardM


body:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
> As much as people can't agree on the content of _one_ encyclopedia
> article? Sorry, I have to object. The genial thing about wikis is that
> it allows people to work in cooperation on one translation and improve
> it as best as possible.
>
> Wikipedia is the proof that this concept works and I can't imagine why
> it shouldn't work for translations, too. Implementing features to create
>  several translation versions means wasting the central advantage of a
> wiki: collaboration.

I agree completely.  And there are easy ways to handle particularly
contentious bits if absolutely necessary in some context, but
generally I think the right way forward would be to find a way to
improve both versions until all parties are happier than with the
original versions.

> In my experience, waiting for the perfect software is the wrong way to
> go. Nobody is going to program stuff for a project which might or might
> not take off. There are more pressings things needed for the existing
> ones...

*nod* In a voluntary community, there's always a chicken-and-egg
problem, and the best way to solve it is just: move forward as best
you can with the tools available.  This will itself generate the
demand and the expertise necessary to make those tools better.

--Jimbo


body:
Viktor Horvath wrote:
> well, here we disagree. To me, an encyclopedia article and a translation
> are inherently different. The one's a definition and rather a science, the
> other one rather an art. Just because one thing works, you can of course
> *try* it with other things, too, but you can't possibly say: It *will*
> work.

I don't think the determination of what goes into an encyclopedia
article is a "science" in that sense.  It's as much of an "art" as
finding a good translation.

> Did you ever do a translation of a *belletristic* work? You see, with
> technical articles, it would be probably no problem to agree on a simple,
> understandable translation. With literature and philosophy, it's
> impossible. There are strict translations, free translations, congenial
> translations. While on each of these fields people can collaborate and
> cooperate, they're as different as rock music and classical music, or as
> Dutch painting of the 16th century and Picasso. And every style has its
> right to exist! You can't judge which is the best one, as you can't find
> an objective winner between music styles. It's just a matter of taste.
> That's the genial thing about art. At least in my opinion. Whereas an
> encyclopedia article should contain only checkable facts, and you can well
> discuss about facts.

I agree with you to *some* extent, but I think the point is:
collaboration works well when people have a clear, objective and
agreed upon goal.  At wikipedia, for example, we have a shared
understanding of what it means to have a neutral encyclopedia article.
That same kind of shared undersatnding is going to be necessary for a
wiki translation project to be successful.

This is not about saying that some style has no right to exist.  If
someone wants to do a translation of Shakespeare into Japanese haiku,
hey, great, I hope they produce a great work of art.  And if a group
of people can come to a shared understanding of what that means, such
that they can work together on it productively, that's great too.

But then they should *within that context*, work on a *single*
collaborative version, and make it conform to the stated goal as well
as they can, rather than doing 100 scattered random diffuse separate
works.  Do you see what I mean?  This is elian's point about what
makes wiki work.

> Well, I don't blame someone if he doesn't want to do so or has no time. I
> have no time either, at least not at the moment, as I have lots to do for
> other free projects... I just hoped to find someone who is also fascinated
> by an idea like this. You're right, starting is better than waiting...
> but, if I had to start something now and had enough time, I'd probably try
> to patch the Wiki source or do the whole thing manually by coordinating
> people in good old mailing lists like in the times before...

:-)

I think that's great.

--Jimbo


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wiktionary-l] upgrade

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Dec 21, 2004, at 12:41 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> As of the moment of writing this, wiktionary is being upgraded to
>> release 1.4. So until it is done, it is better to be carefull.
>
>
> The upgrade is done. Wikis are many and volunteer server admins are
> few, so please make sure you tell us about any exciting new problems
> we've missed...
>
> Bug reports to http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/ please.
>
>
Do you mean you finished work on the wiktionaries ? This means that on
the Italian wiktionary all the localised pages are not there anymore or
at least the redirects are lost or is there still something to do after
an update?

Since this is there:
http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pagina_principale

but entering http://it.wiktionary.org I reach
http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wikipedia

So what needs to be done? could you please tell me in order to know what
to do next time without needing to ask?

Thank you!!!

Ciao, Sabine


from_name: Robin Shannon

body:
When this was first raised a while ago i thought it was a great idea,
however i think the approach suggested is just plain wrong. As it has
been pointed out, it is impossible to have the perfect translation of
Don Quijote de la Mancha or The Republic etc., equally it is far too
difficult and generaly unwiki to try and have multiple versions
together; which to me suggests the obvious solution that we need
several (completely seperate) different versions of each work. For
example we could have en.wikifoo.org/wiki/Don Quijote (literal),
en.wikifoo.org/wiki/Don Quijote (simple english) etc. etc. at the
begining of the translation there would be a page that outlines the
basic ideas to be followed in translating the work (ie. similar to the
translators note at the begining of most classics) and then that can
be used like the NPOV policy, as a basis for comprimise and
collaboration.

I would also suggest that until such a time as there is obvious
disagreements between those who are translating literaly, and those
who arent, there should only be one version (since it will make it
easier to write a literal, or poetic or whatever translation, if you
already have a rough translation to start with.)

I also think that this would be another place where my suggestion of a
reference tab (to go with the main article and talk tabs) for
foot/endnote would be of great use.

paz y amor,
[[User:The bellman]]

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


subject: [Wiktionary-l] upgrade

body:
On Dec 21, 2004, at 4:18 AM, Sabine Cretella wrote:
> Do you mean you finished work on the wiktionaries ? This means that on
> the Italian wiktionary all the localised pages are not there anymore
> or at least the redirects are lost or is there still something to do
> after an update?
>
> Since this is there:
> http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pagina_principale
>
> but entering http://it.wiktionary.org I reach
> http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wikipedia
>
> So what needs to be done? could you please tell me in order to know
> what to do next time without needing to ask?

I really need you to be a lot more specific.

What exactly have you tried changing?

What exactly was it before?

Where was it set before?

Had it been customized before?

When was it customized, and by whom?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Arwel Parry

body:
In message <41C7E70D.80000 at earthlink.net>, Michael Snow
<wikipedia-ihVZJaRskl1bRRN4PJnoQQ at public.gmane.org> writes
>Angela wrote:
>
>>I don't think three years is excessive. It might seem a long time
>>since Wikipedia is a relatively young project
>>
>It seems like a long time not just because Wikipedia is young, but
>because realistically, it is a very long-term commitment relatively to
>the contributing lifespan of quite a few Wikipedians. Turnover and
>attrition will happen among arbitrators as well.

It's not an unprecedented period of office in online fora. The "open"
members of the UK Usenet Committee  (the body which supervises the uk.*
newsgroup hierarchy) is elected in thirds every year -- see
http://www.usenet.org.uk/committee.html

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/


from_name: cookfire

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Doing things we used to be able to do,	in the
	new upgrade

body:
Muke Tever wrote:

> All right, I found one thing:
> The page that was at [[Wiktionary:Recentchanges]] (which on en: for
> example
> was a list of useful links, and a short list of requested articles)
> has been
> superseded by [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]].
>
> Now, you help me. :p  It used to be that a few wiktionaries edited
> [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] to allow users to click and insert
> necessary
> special characters... but it seems it is no longer possible to insert
> the script
> (/style/wikibits.js) to allow this. Is there a workaround, or a better
> way to do
> it now, or will it just have to revert to a copy-and-paste plain-text
> list?
>
>     *Muke!

Yesterday night I have worked for more than 2 hours to get the special
characters nicely in a html table. Today, I find it is overwritten. My
edits are still in the history, but it doesn't matter whether I change
MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning or Sjabloon:Copyrightwarning (sjabloon is
Dutch for template). I never see the javascript stuff to allow the
insertion of accented characters. So what is going on? The accented
characters as I was making them, would allow the easy insertion of
accented characters in French, German, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Turkish,
Romanian, Esperanto and a lot of other languages and I had just gotten
started on the IPA symbols. I was planning to introduce them to the
other Wiktionaries as well, as soon as I had them done nicely in
nl.wiktionary.org. Now they don't show up anymore. This is on the Dutch
Wiktionary, but apparently the same thing has happened on the other
Wiktionaries.
Polyglot


from_name: Shane King

body:
blankfaze wrote:
> So perhaps we should develop better election procedure.

Perhaps we could scrap the election procedure and just have a simple
support/oppose vote whenever someone feels like running for it like we
do for admins? That way the community could decide how many arbitrators
are qualified and required at any given time, rather than picking an
arbitrary number and being stuck with it.

Shane.


body:
On Dec 21, 2004, at 6:20 AM, Muke Tever wrote:
> Now, you help me. :p  It used to be that a few wiktionaries edited
> [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] to allow users to click and insert
> necessary special characters... but it seems it is no longer possible
> to insert the script (/style/wikibits.js) to allow this. Is there a
> workaround, or a better way to do it now, or will it just have to
> revert to a copy-and-paste plain-text list?

Arbitrary HTML and JavaScript in the MediaWiki: messages is dangerous,
and is something that's being phased out. There are a couple reasons
for this.

The first is security: on our larger sites we have literally *hundreds*
of sysops with permissions to edit these messages. With those numbers,
it's hard to assign sufficient 'trust'; even if we believe every one of
them to be upstanding, well-meaning individuals the likelihood of a
compromised account increases with every new sysop. If a broken-into
(or malicious) sysop account can be used to add arbitrary HTML or
JavaScript code, it could be used to exploit security vulnerabilities
in web browsers or more simply attack and subvert the wiki accounts of
other users. Such an attack might be found and reverted immediately, or
it might attack dozens or hundreds -- or thousands -- of visitors
before being stopped.

The second is robustness: accidentally or maliciously placed invalid
HTML could break the site. As the web moves towards more XML (which is
very strict about proper markup syntax) it can become difficult to
recover from such a breakage without manual intervention.

There's still a lot of places with raw HTML in messages, so it's an
ongoing process. Text fragments are being moved to either plaintext or
wikitext, depending on their use and purpose. (Paragraph-level blocks
such as the copyright warning are generally wikitext.)

It would probably be worthwhile to write up the special character
inserter as a MediaWiki extension -- then it could be inserted into the
wikitext message in a safe, secure way.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Zoney

subject: [WikiEN-l] Painting copyright

body:
As far as I know, certainly in some jurisdictions very little
modification of public domain or out of copyright work may be required
to create a new copyrighted work.

While we don't want to be too fussy, as it's unlikely an uncertain
case will be challenged, we should keep an eye on photos of such
objects (to pick a contrived copyrighted example, an inspired photo of
a row of old paintings - i.e. an original work to some extent despite
the paintings not being the work of the photographer)

My two eurocent anyways.

Zoney

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:36:49 -0700, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> Ordinary pictures of out of copyright paintings remain in the public domain,
> after all, a photograph is just a copy. The usual issue arises when you
> attempt to photograph the picture itself while it is in a venue controled by
> its owner or licensee who may attempt to impose restrictions on what you may
> do while you are in the space.
>
> Fred
>
> > From: Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com>
> > Reply-To: Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> > <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:39:31 +1100
> > To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Painting copyright
> >
> > The copyright on the paintings of the great masters are obviously all
> > well out of date, however, does this mean that straight photos of
> > these are uncopyrightable? Or are they like translations of the
> > classics which are copyrightable. It just seems that not enough has
> > been down by taking a photo (or photocopying or scanning or however
> > the hell it is that art galleries make thier pictures of paintings) to
> > really justify calling it a new work in its own right.
> >
> > Anyone know the answer? Even any unqualified people want to take a
> > stab at guessing the answer?
> >
> > Also if they are copyrightable, does anyone know of any place where
> > there are PD/open license pics of the works of the great masters?
> >
> > Paz, amor y Pap? Noel,
> > rjs,
> > [[User:The bellman]]
> >
> > --
> > hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
> > jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au
> >
> > This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
> > Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
> > http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


subject: [Wiktionary-l] upgrade

body:
On Dec 21, 2004, at 3:06 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2004, at 4:18 AM, Sabine Cretella wrote:
>> Do you mean you finished work on the wiktionaries ? This means that
>> on the Italian wiktionary all the localised pages are not there
>> anymore or at least the redirects are lost or is there still
>> something to do after an update?

Ok, I think I see the problem. If necessary I'll pull the messages from
backup once I've sorted out the bugs.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] RC bug in 1.4 (Wiktionary) ?

body:
On Dec 21, 2004, at 4:46 PM, Muke Tever wrote:
> The same happens on la:.  In fact, not only in Special:Recentchanges,
> but also in the article history, and the diff view they are missing.
> I don't know if the software is discarding them entirely, or what.

The link placeholders aren't being properly turned into real links in
comment formatting. Will look into it...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:

>Well, since the topic has been raised, there's another question I'm curious about.
>
>I think in the U. S. publication is the key to copyright.
>
It is for now, but the US is changing to the life plus 70 regime for
works published after 1977, but in practical terms none of the works
affected will come into the public domain until Jan. 1, 2049

>For sure, unpublished letters can be copyrighted when they surface, even if they were written over a century ago.
>
This is no loinger the case.  If a work was not published before 2003
and not registered for copyright before 1978 it goes into the public
domain on the January 1, following the anniversary of the author's
death.  For somebody who died in 1934 that means 11 days from now.

>Millet's Le Semeur was painted in 1850, but when was it "published?" What constitutes publication for an oil painting which isn't mass-produced? Is it published when it's exhibited in a gallery? If so, then no problem (for most famous classic old paintings).
>
Millet died in 1875, so his work is now well into the public domain.  It
was "published" when it was made generally known to the public.  So,
yes, exhibiting it in a gallery would be a form of publication.  A
publishing firm that prints a book and leaves all the copies locked up
in a warehouse for a number of years has not published it as long as
they all stay there.

>Otherwise, do you need to research when the first printed reproduction was published? Truly "slavish" color reproductions weren't cheap and common (and used in textbooks and encyclopedias and magazines) until, oh, maybe the 1930s.
>
Basing copyright expiry on the life of the author avoids the problem of
determining when it was published.  An author's death date is far more
available piece of data.

>So, if "published" means "printed" then printed reproductions that are old enough to be in the public domain would be hand-tinted engravings, or chromolithographs (or whatever the Currier and Ives things are called), or black-and-white photos.  Which are significantly different enough from a color photo of the same painting.
>
What would make such photographs copyrightable would be the level of
creativity involved.  A simple point and click, or even mechanical film
selection, f-stop, shutter speed or focus adjustments to enhance the
representation of the picture would not be creative acts.  Wilfully
putting a picture out of focus or distorting the colours (? la Andy
Warhol), or a risqu? variation of the Mona Lisa in the style of Monty
Python could be creative enough to merit a new copyright.

Ec


subject: [Wiktionary-l] RC bug in 1.4 (Wiktionary) ?

body:
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:41:04 +0100, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I?found something which seems to be a bug in RC in the new 1.4 on Wiktionary.
>
> Comments like [[en:article]] or [[:en:article]] don't appear in RC.
> This can be seen at least on http://hi.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????:Recentchanges
> and http://gu.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
>
> For exemple, this (21 Dec, 20:20)
> (diff) (hist) . . N Malayalam; ??:?? . . Yann (Talk) ()
> should be
> (diff) (hist) . . N Malayalam; ??:?? . . Yann (Talk) ([[en:Malayalam]])

The same happens on la:.  In fact, not only in Special:Recentchanges, but also in the article history, and the diff view they are missing.  I don't know if the software is discarding them entirely, or what.

	*Muke!
--
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