body:
> (Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>):
>
> To me dumbing down means depriving people of their own challenges
> in life, and doing things for them that they should be doing for
> themselves.  Mothers do this all the time when they compulsively
> pick up their children's things; the result is children who never
> learn to pick for themselves - much to the irritation of their
> eventual spouses.  The educational component of Wikipedia is not
> just about content and the process of making that content satisfy
> NPOV.  The same process can also apply to article stucture and
> markup.  Need the Wiki vs. HTML dynamic be any different than the
> one about American vs. British English.

That's a good point. We probably don't want to limit the content
model so much that people can't learn and grow to think in terms
of document structure and presentation as well as content. So if
putting in those more advanced structural elements is a little
difficult, that's not such a bad thing. But disabling them
entirely in the name of simplicity probably is.

Here's my main concern: I don't expect a newbie encountering a
complex table to be able to edit the table without taking some
time to learn what might be a complex syntax. But I /do/ want a
newbie who sees a table with a misspelled word or an out-of-date
statistic in it to be able to click edit, find the text with
reasonable ease, and fix the text.

That's why including the table from another namespace is a
total non-starter for me. When the newbie who clicks edit opens
the page, he may see something simpler, but he still won't see
the word he wanted to change, and he won't know how to get there,
so we haven't solved the problem at all.

Here's another proposal for how we might handle more complex
markup like nested tables:

In my current vision, this:

  {{xxx
  text....
  * list...
  text...
  }}

already creates a DIV block-level element in order to apply the
style "xxx" to it, and

  {{xxx Inline text...}}

similarly creates a SPAN. Let's (1) allow omitting the style tag
altogether, so we can just create an anonymous DIV or SPAN,
(2) make the parser keep a stack of open DIVs and SPANs, and allow
elements to nest inside them, and (3) make tables usable at
phrase-level like images (which they are in HTML anyway).

That way, the nested table looks like this:

||| === Title ===
| head1 | head2 | head3
| {{
|| ==== Inner table ====
| cell | cell
}}
| cell | cell | cell

This would also allow you do things like putting paragraphs
within list items, as well as nasty things like putting a table
inside a list item, which gives me pause.  Anyway, it's just
another possibility. It does have the benefits that (1) all the
text is visible as text, with no alphabetic markup to obscure
it (with the exception of any style tags that might be added),
and (2) the blank line terminates the structure, and line breaks
terminate rows, so if a user screws up the effects will be limited.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The clitoris guy

body:
Anthere-
> Hmmmm...the english wiki is willing to report law
> condemnation and to censor erotic picture.

I strongly object to this characterization. The picture was not removed
for being explicit, it was removed because the copyright status was
unclear and the picture itself not particularly helpful. A different photo
under the FDL or in the PD would be perfectly acceptable.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [WikiEN-l] JohnQ / MaryMary - the clitoris guy

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>Hmm... I guess I've lost my prtection from severe
>critisism from my young age I used to have on this
>list. Actually, I'm glad I'm being treated as an
>equal. But I disagree with what you said.

I hope that I've never treated you ?as a 13-year-old? (or whatever you are).
You've always been an equal in my eyes.

-- Toby


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Experimental page caching in cvs, online

body:
On Fri, 2003-05-16 at 09:01, Brion Vibber wrote:
> [brion at larousse w]$ uptime
>  15:26:42  up 14:57,  3 users,  load average: 7.36, 9.50, 7.76

Compare after a few hours:

[brion at larousse w]$ uptime
 20:17:31  up 19:48,  1 user,  load average: 1.76, 1.94, 2.00

:)))))))))

I've cleared the cache (via the now-working $wgCacheEpoch setting) to a)
test it and b) clear out cached pages that were missing the external
images off setting; this pops load back up a bit:

[brion at larousse includes]$ uptime
 20:50:58  up 20:22,  2 users,  load average: 8.04, 6.99, 4.56
[brion at larousse includes]$ uptime
 20:52:57  up 20:24,  2 users,  load average: 4.72, 6.15, 4.55

but still nice.

Also most major TeX should be rerendered by now, so we should have fewer
spikes on that account.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Ulrich Fuchs

subject: [Wikipedia-l] A vision for wiki syntax, documented

body:
> I am curious how these controversies are resolved nowadays in this
> community. A few people state their opinion and developers make the
> final decision?

Sure - in the end they will do the programming, not the users. Any user is
free to share in as Phase III Software developer. However, if our developers
are good developers (and I bet they are), they will listen to what the people
actually using their software will state as their requirements ;-)

Uli


subject: [WikiEN-l] Signing letters (Was: JohnQ / MaryMary - the clitoris guy)

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote in part:

>PS. Could everyone please sign their letters?

Everyone *does* sign their letters, in the From: header.
Some additionally sign them in the text, for convenience;
but if you don't see that, then check the From: header.

What we don't always have is a link between the letter
and a username *on*Wikipedia*.  Maybe that's what you meant.
It'd be nice if everybody signed with their Wikipedia username
(except where it matches their email username).

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The clitoris guy

body:
Alex R. wrote in part:

>As far as the _very_ strict puritanic tradition in
>the US, perhaps there should be a wiki server in Canada or some other
>country that is more liberal minded in some respects about allowing people
>to discuss and publish/broadcast "taboo" subjects.

Right, we need 3 servers in all (as I see it):
* A server in the US for its protection of political expression;
* A server in France for its acceptance of nudity; and
* A server in Australia for its short copyright protection.
^_^

-- Toby


body:
The Cunctator wrote in part:

>It is impossible for anything to be truly neutral. Once people are willing
>to admit that, we can all work usefully to discover, admit, and counteract
>bias.

Right, "NPOV" is a *relative* term.
Much like "complete" and "accurate", which we also strive to be.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] cameras and point of view

body:
Tannin wrote in part:

>The
>selection of a photograph, *any* photograph is in itself a statement
>about the subject, often a much more powerful statement than you can
>fit into the caption or the body text.

That's why photography is (or can be) *art*.

-- Toby


body:
Brion Vibber wrote in part:

>Limiting / stripping / segregating HTML now will be a huuuuge advantage
>in the future, when HTML is replaced by QLZML and nothing supports HTML
>anymore and we still want people to be able to read and edit the 10
>million articles in Wikipedia.

No one even today wants the current QLZML (that is, HTML 4 or XHTML 1).
We don't even want all of HTML 2.  As QLZML increases the potential vocabulary,
we can decide for ourselves what, if anything, we want to include, and how.
But we can decide now to accept <tt> and <table> forever --
always parsing them into whatever output markup language is current
(*not* leaving them unparsed as we do today).

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: A vision for wiki syntax, documented

body:
On Fri, 2003-05-16 at 14:05, Toby Bartels wrote:
> One change that we really need to make in PediaWiki, however,
> is to not allow things like <span onmouseup="...">.

Well, that's an easy change request to accomodate, since we already do
that. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please, no more personal attacks

body:
james duffy wrote:

>
> Is there NO end to this nonsense?

There won't be as long as you keep trying to have the last word... :-)

> The facts are straight forward. The issue is closed.

I read Cunc as commenting only on your histrionic style.  In your first
sentence that I quote above, you characterize his complaints as "nonsense".
There are people and cultures for whom that alone is mortally offensive, and
yet you toss it off as if you think everybody will just automatically
agree with
you.

Histrionics often work - many victims will yield a point in the hopes of
getting it to stop - which is why some people get into the habit.  ("It
works,
so why stop?")  But it is a form of abusive behavior, and you shouldn't
do it.  Perhaps someday you'll find out that one of your targets is an
11-year-old girl trying her best, and you'll realize that you're simply
being a bully.

Stan


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Getting rid of nicknames

body:
The Cunctator wrote:

>People should not use unpronounceable nicknames.

>People should not use nicknames that are made up of non-alphabetical
>characters.

I don't see what's wrong with these.
The Chinese nicknames were a problem, since some people couldn't view them.
???'s username, however, is viewable by anybody that can use [[en:]].
Whenever I see "???", I know exactly who it is.

That said, I see no real need to support nicknames.
"???", after all, is not a nickname.

-- Toby


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Getting rid of nicknames

body:
> (Axel Boldt <axelboldt at yahoo.com>):
>
> If I remember correctly, we initially implemented nicknames to
> accomodate users with offensive user names. This issue is now moot,
> since by consensus offensive user names are not allowed anymore.

Actually, I implemented the feature just because I wanted it.
I still think it's useful--I want my user page to be headed by
a complete name, but using that long name in attributing comments
seems like overkill. Plus, it gives people the ability to
personalize a bit while not hiding behind a psudonym entirely.

Like many features of the software, I think this one just gives
us a greater opportunity to judge the character of the user: if
someone changes nicknames to deliberately obscure the attribution
of comments, then we know how seriously to take those comments.

If users seriously abuse any feature of the software and disrupt
our goals, we can consider taking action. But I don't see this
particular feature as more abusable than any other.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Two issues here: what is legal to have on the server and what is legal in the user's nation

body:
Toby Bartels wrote:

>Anthere wrote:
>
>>>A contributor from France can decide what risk she wants to take
>>>in posting potentially illegal material while in that country.
>>>But I shouldn't use my influence on Wikipedia policy to stop her.
>>>(I don't know if this paragraph is in disagreement with you or not.)
>>>
>>Why do you use a "she" ?
>>
>
>As you suspected,
>because you were the first French contributor to come to mind.
>But of course I don't mean to imply that I mean you specifically,
>just as writing "he" would not have implied that I meant Aoineko
>(the first male French contributor to come to my mind just now).
>
>I wrote "she", thought ?That "she" is because of Anthere, isn't it??,
>decided ?Well, it's no worse than "he" and better than "ze".?, and kept it.
>But really, I should have changed it to "they".
>
Then you would have been grammatically wrong. :-)

Ec


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>One change that we really need to make in PediaWiki, however,
>>is to not allow things like <span onmouseup="...">.

>Well, that's an easy change request to accomodate, since we already do
>that. :)

So we do!  We didn't once upon a time.

That makes some of my recent comments obsolete.
That is, things are already closer to perfect.

-- Toby


body:
I wrote in part:

>But we can decide now to accept <tt> and <table> forever --
>always parsing them into whatever output markup language is current
>(*not* leaving them unparsed as we do today).

The parenthetical comment is obsolete -- ignore it.
Thanks, Brion!

-- Toby


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On 5/16/03 3:39 PM, "Daniel Ehrenberg" <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, that would have to be staged.
>
> I guess I phrased myself wrong. But I wasn't saying
> that pictures are POV, I was saying that _if we use_
> photographs in the way we might, it could be
> considered POV. But that doesn't really make sense,
> what I'm saying. It's kinda meta-POV; I can't explain
> it. But the issue here isn't really POV. The atribute
> of POV or NPOV can't be applied to pictures like this
> (with yours as an exception), just how we use them.

Arg. The creeping nonsense of jargon. Try writing the above without using
acronyms, and maybe it'll start making sense.

It is impossible for anything to be truly neutral. Once people are willing
to admit that, we can all work usefully to discover, admit, and counteract
bias.

But if we as a Wikipedian community persist in claims such as "X is NPOV",
"Y is POV", we'll always fail.


from_name: Oualmakran Youssef

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "Procedural default and disclaimer

body:
Hello,

I think that non French Wikipedian needs more details
about what happens and what had happenned.

I will give here more details on what happened before
and about my chts with Aioneko and Anthere.
I have also added in this email the point of vieuw of
Aoineko since he was not very motivated to talk about
it here and since he has a poor knowledge of English.

Fist, around January, there was a contributor,
a vandal who has stolen the nickname of various
sysops and who was araising some trouble on fr,
hopefully he did not destroy a lot of pages.

Wat is more, some monthes ago, there was a "problematic"
contributor. He was really "problematic". He has
was responsible for the second war edit since my arrival
on French Wikipedia (on February 2002). His  name
was Phillipe. Aoineko was very hungry against him, because
he made a link to a racist site on an article
about a "famous" French. Then, there was bitter comments
between Anthere and Aoineko. Philippe wrote other articles
whiche were non NPOV and was a adpoting a racist point of
vieuw in his articles. Aoineko, then insulted Philippe
and make revert without caring at what he do. Anthere was
angry about that.

At that moment, there was flamewars on this list about
racism here if you remeber. Most people did not care
about (or at least were not very angry)
the four letters words that Aoineko used and about
his reverts, since Phillipe was not a "normal" wikipedian.

Aoineko and Anthere do not share the same point of vieuw
on how to deal racism (include or not include),
non NPOV (should we erase them, or let them unchanged till some one
amend them), diplomacy (using four letters words or not for some users),
how to use reverts (only after reading, or it may be used for
people who do not respect wiketiquette)

Recent facts. I have not checked all the recent changes, here are
some details.

First, the recent flameware between Aoineko and Anthere did begin
with a contributor Atyvement.
Athyvement used the same ho used a nickname than Athymik and made
changes that were non NPOV.

Then Aoineko created the accounts similar to "anthere". He admitted it
was a joke and that he did not created all the conterfeit.
His intention was not to show to everybody that Anthere use for
letters words but to show  how dangerous it may be allowing people
to use similar nick. In fact he was angry about the Athyvement contribution
he made the same changes as before under a nick that was similar to another user

I have talked with Aoneko and Anthere through Yahoo and ICQ

Anthere was very sad about how Aoineko reacted, and reacts
(he has used several times four letter words, about saying that "Aoineko is a ***
under an account similar to Anthere, and how he revert non-NPOV articles
instead of amending them).

I have also talked to Aoineko, he says that he will make
an effort to not use four letter words and will not leave biased
articles.

Aoineko admitted that he did make the account ''anth?re''
to show how dangerous the use of similar nick may be. He has also
a poor knowledge of English and so do not participate a lot
to this mailing list.

I hope that things would become quieter and that they will both
try to work together on the wiki even if they do not share the same
policy. I thing it would be good if they stay both, even if they do
not share the same policy (reverts/non-reverts on NPOV, how to deal
with vandals, etc)  but they share the same philosophy
(make knowledge availabe) and they same goal (make Wikipedia a big encyclopedia)

Hope this email will be useful and that no one will
over-react to this email.

Youssef

Sorry for my typos. No one here to edit
 my email and correct my spelling mistakes :-(


subject: [Wikipedia-l] interlingual use of image

body:
> (Tomos at Wikipedia <wiki_tomos at hotmail.com>):
> As I understand, there are two ways to use an image from
> another language-wikipedia...
> Is one way more recommended than the other?

Images should not be shared among Wikipedias. it is our goal
to have each Wikipedia be complete and self-contained, except
for links to the Internet at large. Disk space is cheap--if
the same image appears in 10 wikis, then it should be uploaded
10 times and linked locally in each.  That way, when we make
a backup of each wiki, each backup contains the whole content.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: steven l. rubenstein

body:
I don't think our NPOV policy makes things unobjectionable.  I think what
it does is provides us with a way to take objectionable or controversial
things and frame them in a detached way, from which they can be understood
or appreciated critically.

My point is that the issue is not the difference between POV and NPOV (as
if some things are clearly one or the other); I think the real issue is the
relationship between a thing and its frame, or context.  Many of us have
struggled, with varying degrees of success, to learn how to use one set of
words to provide this kind of context for another set of words.  But the
question of drawings or photographs creates another dimension to the
text/context distinction.

By the way, I am not sure I see much of a difference between a drawing and
a photograph as such.  I think some people think photos have more potential
to disturb because they are presumably photos of a real person (that is, a
photo of a clitoris is the photo of a specific woman's clitoris; a drawing
of a clitoris can be a drawing of no one's clitoris -- but I think this is
a side issue).

On the one hand, we expect photos or drawings to illustrate an article.  In
this sense, a photo can be a good or bad illustration, and we should be
careful to select photos that illustrate something in need of illustration,
and no more.  But what would be controversial would not be the photo itself
but rather the thing the photo illustrates.  Photos illustrating mistral
shows or the Holocaust will be disturbing because they are illustrating
disturbing things.  The question of NPOV pertains to how the article itself
presents these disturbing events or practices.

On the other hand, the relationship between text and context is not static
or stable -- text and context often swap places easily.  In other words, it
is not just the written article that "frames" the photo; the photo "frames"
the article.  I think this is what lay behind some people's objection to
the  presence of nail-polish in the photos.  The implication (not a
necessary implication, but I think reasonable) is that the image conveyed
information besides the form or location of the clitoris, that re-framed --
in a way, biased (or "POV'd") the article.  I think this is a reasonable
concern.  People will not just interpret the photo based on what the
article says, they will interpret the article based on the kind of photo.

I don't know if this is a very constructive comment.  I guess I am saying that
1) photos can be useful to illustrate
2) photos in and of themselves are neither offensive or inoffensive; the
emotional or intellectual value of a photo has to do with its context
3) we need to accept that if people will have sensitivities to the topic of
the article, they will be sensitive to anything that illustrates it -- I
think this is unavoidable
4) it is still useful to remember the spirit of the NPOV policy, that we
must be careful not only about what we write but how what we write occurs
in a context, or calls for a context, or provides a context, that can be
judgmental or exclude someone's views, or that can be non-judgmental and
that is more inclusive of different views.  I think this principal can
guide us both in our use of words and images.

Well, just some thoughts.  Steve
4)

At 12:54 PM 5/16/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>--- "John R. Owens" <jowens.wiki at ghiapet.homeip.net>
>wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 May 2003, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 05:38:49 -0700 (PDT)
> > > From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] JohnQ / MaryMary - the
> > clitoris guy
> > >
> > > --- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> > > > Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >You're missing MY point. From a relistic
> > > > perspective,
> > > > >sexually explicit images are in a different
> > > > category
> > > > >than articles describing christianity in
> > Western
> > > > >culture. I know it is POV, but I think it is
> > > > >nessessary in a situation like this.
> > > > >
> > > > Each category has its own range for what is
> > > > objectionable.  "Sexually
> > > > explicit" runs from suggestive almost nudity to
> > > > goatse.cx.  Others might
> > > > find the extreme views of "creation science" and
> > > > "holocaust denial" to
> > > > be just as objectionable.
> > > >
> > > > Ec
> > >
> > > Creation science and holocaust denial are
> > > objectionable, but they are presented as opinion,
> > not
> > > fact. That is the main difference. You cant make
> > an
> > > NPOV photograph.
> > >
> > > --LittleDan
> >
> > So, umm, just what opinions does a photograph have?
> > As long as they aren't
> > doctored or staged, photographs are about as NPOV as
> > it gets around here.
> > You _can_ make a POV photograph, but you have to
> > try.
> > The inclusion or not is where the POV usually starts
> > to creep in. And it
> > seems to be trying to do so now.
> >
> > --
> > John R. Owens
>
>Sorry, I misphrased myself. What I mean was that you
>cant take a photo and make it unobjectionable.
>
>--LittleDan
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
>http://search.yahoo.com
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Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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body:
> (Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu>):
> Thomas Corell wrote:
>
> >And that a (or better _the_) developer posted such a vision for starting
> >discussions before he starts coding seems to proof this.
>
> Right.  It's highly unlikely that Lee will edit the PediaWiki code
> in such a way that advanced table features will no longer work,
> simply because this is proving to be quite unpopular.
> However, there's no guarantee that he'll edit the code
> to allow, say, a [[table:]] namespace, even if everybody else wants it --
> some other developer may have to do that instead, if it happens at all.

You're probably right that I won't do [[table:]], because while
I've heard support for it, I have yet to hear a good argument for
it. Popularity is not a good argument.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Getting rid of nicknames

body:
On 5/16/03 4:29 PM, "Lee Daniel Crocker" <lee at piclab.com> wrote:

>> (Axel Boldt <axelboldt at yahoo.com>):
>>
>> If I remember correctly, we initially implemented nicknames to
>> accomodate users with offensive user names. This issue is now moot,
>> since by consensus offensive user names are not allowed anymore.
>
> Actually, I implemented the feature just because I wanted it.
> I still think it's useful--I want my user page to be headed by
> a complete name, but using that long name in attributing comments
> seems like overkill. Plus, it gives people the ability to
> personalize a bit while not hiding behind a psudonym entirely.
>
> Like many features of the software, I think this one just gives
> us a greater opportunity to judge the character of the user: if
> someone changes nicknames to deliberately obscure the attribution
> of comments, then we know how seriously to take those comments.
>
> If users seriously abuse any feature of the software and disrupt
> our goals, we can consider taking action. But I don't see this
> particular feature as more abusable than any other.

I'd say that people have been seriously abusing the nickname function.
People really should not have nicknames that are significantly different
from their usernames.

People should not use nicknames that closely resemble other people's
usernames.

People should not use unpronounceable nicknames.

People should not use nicknames that are made up of non-alphabetical
characters.

Etc.


body:
On Fri, 2003-05-16 at 09:01, Brion Vibber wrote:
> - The cache directory is divided up like the upload directory is; so
> there should be 4096 separate dirs. Should be plenty for keeping ext3
> from going mad and killing us all for a while yet.

Er, my math sucks after no sleep, apparently. That's *256* dirs, not
4096. Each presently has ~90-150 files (1.2-2 megabytes) stored in it.
Total file cache stacks up to 30,468 pages (about 450 megs) right now.

A very silly thought I had: we could also gzip the cache files, and send
the pre-gzipped versions to browsers that support it to decrease
bandwidth usage. Maybe I'm going overboard here though. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Two issues here:

body:
Tomos at Wikipedia wrote:

> One more issue. What is legal for an admin to do/not do.
>
> In U.S. context, I guess admins may be held liable if they do not
> delete obscene or defamatory content after a notice/objection from a
> user. (Or is it the project as a whole rather than admins which would
> be held liable?)
>
> Similar things, but with different conditions, would apply for admins
> of other language-wikis. So, sometimes, even if the content is
> perfectly legal to host in a U.S. server, it would have to be deleted
> by an admin in another country.
>
> Regarding copyrights, Japanese laws provide different protections for
> the copyright holders and exemptions for users (like that of fair use
> in the U.S.). So, again, what is legal in U.S. context may or may not
> be legal in Japanese context.

It's never that simple.  US law applies on most of this because the
server is in the United States, and to the extent that it may be an
issue coming under state jurisdiction, California law applies because
that's where the server is.  When it comes to obscenity California is
likely on the liberal end in the spectrum of the states.  A person in an
other state could still be liable for illegalities in his own
contributions, and to take it even further if on a given day he happens
to be travelling in a third state and works from his hotel room there is
a possibility of subjection to that third state's laws.  You only need
to change "state" to "country" in that last sentence to have a global
perspective on the matter.  Since for many Americans the constitutional
issue of free speech is a big matter, simply having a law in the
statutes does not mean that it is enforceable.

There is a strog need to distinguish the legality of the contents which
is static and depends on the server's location, and the legality of the
contributions which is personal and depends on the location of the
contributor.

When you ask what is legal for an admin to do you are aking the wrong
question.  Doing nothing is perfectly legal unless your country imposes
a specific obligation to act.  If someone in your country makes a
contribution that is illegal in your country, California law takes over
once the contribution is enterred.  The language of the contribution is
irrelevant.  An expatriate Japanese writing here in Canada in his native
language would still be subject to Canadian laws on his contributions,
not Japanese law.  There is no need for an admin in another country to
delete it..

The right to insist on the removal of copyright material rests with the
copyright owner, and not on a third party.  I suspect that most
copyright material doesn't have anybody there to claim that copyright.
 If a person published a book in 1924, properly renewed the copyright in
1952, and died without a will, estate or heirs in 1953 where does this
leave us?  I favour a common sense approach to copyright.

Sometimes the actions of a well-intentioned meddler with no direct
interest in something, are as much a problem as the apparent violation.
 It's like the situation of a street fight when both fighters turn
against the person who tries to break up the fight.

Ec


body:
Toby Bartels wrote:

>Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
>
>>Hmm... I guess I've lost my prtection from severe
>>critisism from my young age I used to have on this
>>list. Actually, I'm glad I'm being treated as an
>>equal. But I disagree with what you said.
>>
>
>I hope that I've never treated you ?as a 13-year-old? (or whatever you are).
>You've always been an equal in my eyes.
>
If you act like a grown-up you get treated like a grown-up -- for better
or for worse!

Ec


from_name: koyaanis qatsi

subject: [WikiEN-l] photographs and POV (was: JohnQ / MaryMary - the clitoris guy)

body:
John R. Owens writes:
> As long as they aren't doctored or staged,
> photographs are about as NPOV as it gets around
> here. You _can_ make a POV photograph, but you have
> to try.

No, no, no!  Not true.

The photographer first chooses what to photograph.
POV #1.  Then, a series of choices, and some of them
deliberate, others just to try something different to
better chances of getting a good photo--all of which
affect audience perception of the subject.  The result
is invariably POV.

A short list of possible photographer choices
affecting perception of a picture (only the ones I can
think of until this song ends or I get bored,
whichever comes first):

angle of view
lens used
distance from photographer to subject
intensity of lighting
direction of lighting
variance in lighting
film speed
shutter speed
depth of field
framing
:non-subject objects included
:non-subject objects excluded
color temperature
subject's disposition (a quarter is a quarter
regardless, but is it nicked, stained, newly minted?
Jack Nicholson at 6 a.m. waking up does not look like
Jack Nicholson at 2 p.m. watching TV, regardless of
all other factors, including using identical lighting,
lenses, angle, etc.)

Take a look at [[perspective distortion]] for just one
example of why *there is no such thing as an NPOV
photograph.*  Some of them come close, most aren't in
the same ballpark.

_The NY Times_ even ran a retraction once for printing
a story with a photo taken using a wide-angle lens.
It was of an unexploded bomb on the ground, a man
standing beside it.  The man was dwarfed by the
bomb--tiny!.  The *retraction* included the original
photo and a second one taken of the same man, same
bomb, but using a long lens--the bomb was slightly
shorter than the man was tall.  I would have liked to
see one using a [[normal lens]].

kq

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subject: [WikiEN-l] cameras and point of view

body:
Toby Bartels wrote:

>Tannin wrote in part:
>
>>The
>>selection of a photograph, *any* photograph is in itself a statement
>>about the subject, often a much more powerful statement than you can
>>fit into the caption or the body text.
>>
>
>That's why photography is (or can be) *art*.
>
That's why Yossuf Karsh's portrait of Winston Churchill has become so
famous.  The United Nations photo-montage "The Family of Man" (ca. 1960)
is in this league.

Ec


body:
On Fri, 2003-05-16 at 16:46, james duffy wrote:
>
> Is there NO end to this nonsense? For the last time, if The Cunctator read
> the talk pages and stopped taking thinks out of context, he would see the
> following:

That must be my problem. I'm always taking thinks out of context.

Sorry about that.

Nonsensically,
tc


from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Two issues here:

body:
(Sorry for the ommission of the subject line. But it seems that subject line
has a limit in my mail service.)

One more issue. What is legal for an admin to do/not do.

In U.S. context, I guess admins may be held liable if they do not delete
obscene or defamatory content after a notice/objection from a user. (Or is
it the project as a whole rather than admins which would be held liable?)

Similar things, but with different conditions, would apply for admins of
other language-wikis. So, sometimes, even if the content is perfectly legal
to host in a U.S. server, it would have to be deleted by an admin in another
country.

Regarding copyrights, Japanese laws provide different protections for the
copyright holders and exemptions for users (like that of fair use in the
U.S.). So, again, what is legal in U.S. context may or may not be legal in
Japanese context.

regards,

Tomos

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] interlingual use of image

body:
As I understand, there are two ways to use an image from another
language-wikipedia.

One is to download it (say, from Meta) and upload (say, to Japanese).

The other is to use the URL of the image. like this:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/upload/c/c0/Japan_global_locator_closeup.png

Is one way more recommended than the other? Is there any discussion of
sharing or not sharing images across language-wikis? I see that the first
takes more storage capacity, while the latter may cause more burden on the
server when a page is downloaded (though I'm not sure).

Thanks for help,

Tomos

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from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Getting rid of nicknames

body:
tc wrote:
> I'd say that people have been seriously abusing the nickname function.
> People really should not have nicknames that are significantly different
> from their usernames.
>
> People should not use nicknames that closely resemble other people's
> usernames.
>
> People should not use unpronounceable nicknames.
>
> People should not use nicknames that are made up of non-alphabetical
> characters.

I agree. We should therefore make a policy about this while keeping the
ability to have nicknames. There is nothing wrong with my nick, no?

It should be reasonably easy to associate a nickname with a user name. Doing
otherwise was cute at first but after a while it does border on rudeness
(however unintended).

--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Two issues here:

body:
Tomos wrote:
> Similar things, but with different conditions, would apply for admins of
> other language-wikis. So, sometimes, even if the content is perfectly legal
> to host in a U.S. server, it would have to be deleted by an admin in
> another country.

Uh, no. The /only/ thing that counts is the legality of having the material on
a server in the US. What is legal for the user to submit to Wikipedia is
entirely up to the individual user, his or her nation and the amount of risk
the user is willing to take.

The /only/ laws that matter here are the ones of California and the US. So if
the material violates California and US law, /then/, and only then, can it be
deleted on legal grounds. Of course if the user that submitted the material
suddenly realizes that they broke the law of their own nation, then an Admin
should delete the material soon after the user who submitted it asked the
Admin.

> Regarding copyrights, Japanese laws provide different protections for the
> copyright holders and exemptions for users (like that of fair use in the
> U.S.). So, again, what is legal in U.S. context may or may not be legal in
> Japanese context.

No! This is /exactly/ the thing that has to be avoided. If an Admin insists on
deleting otherwise acceptable material (meaning it is both encyclopedic and
legal under US law) because it would be illegal to have that material on a
server in the nation of the Admin, then we should seriously reconsider the
Admin's sysop status.

Like I said before we should /not/ have the laws of every nation have veto
power over what we have on our server. Just pause for a moment to consider
what Wikipedia would be like if we started down that road.

Blandopedia - that's what we would be. We would be even more of a joke than
most public school textbooks in the United States (which are de facto
censored by state and local school boards who only approve textbooks that
don't offend a long list of lobbyists both on the right and left).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] *cough* Wikimedia (was: "interlingual use of image")

body:
LDC wrote:
> Images should not be shared among Wikipedias. it is our goal
> to have each Wikipedia be complete and self-contained, except
> for links to the Internet at large. Disk space is cheap--if
> the same image appears in 10 wikis, then it should be uploaded
> 10 times and linked locally in each.  That way, when we make
> a backup of each wiki, each backup contains the whole content.

And how difficult would it be to add meta tags to each shared image for every
language that links to it? Not very I imagine (what links here already works
in a similar way). I already own Wikimedia.org (notice the "m") which would
be a great place to have a centralized media repository (and non-profit too,
BTW).

Hard drive space isn't the only resource to consider here; more important is
our human resources:

The way it is now somebody has to go to where the image is located, copy the
image onto their computer's hard drive, upload the image to a different
language, edit the image's description page and then link to the image in the
article.

But if we had a centralized media repository then all the user has to do is
make the wiki link. Done.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: james duffy

body:
Is there NO end to this nonsense? For the last time, if The Cunctator read
the talk pages and stopped taking thinks out of context, he would see the
following:

1. Many people, Fred Bauder included, saw the text being added as
unbalanced. He was repeatedly told that it was clearly POV AND even if it
was NPOV it was being put on the wrong page. He ignored everyone and kept
putting it into the text, ignoring the appeals of a list of people on the
talkpage. It was removed by by a number of people because it was wrongly
placed and, to quote Fred, "unbalanced". Fred was asked to move it to
another more relevant page where it could be worked on by him and others to
produce a properly balanced, properly analytical text.

2. As the talk page made clear, my primary concern was with the fact that
kept putting the text on the wrong page. Others were more concerned with the
context of the text.

3. I moved the text to a better page, where Fred and others were able to
work on it without rows over its constant removal because it was then on the
right page. That solution worked for everyone, including Fred, with the sole
exception The Cunctator who ignored everyone else and kept trying to plonk
it back on the wrong page.

The facts are straight forward. The issue is closed.

JT

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from_name: Zoe

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Getting rid of nicknames

body:
I'm really not sure what you're saying.  Are you
saying that every user must use their real name?  If
so, this has been hashed out over and over again and
rejected as unworkable.

Zoe

--- Axel Boldt <axelboldt at yahoo.com> wrote:
> If my understanding is correct, at least part of the
> recent conflict
> between Anthere and Guillaume has to do with two
> people using the same
> nickname. I will take the opportunity to reiterate
> my plea to get rid
> of the nickname feature altogether.
>
> The main reason is that nicknames make discussions
> harder to follow,
> especially if people keep changing them or use ones
> with undisplayable
> symbols.
>
> Since the initial user name is already completely
> self-chosen, I can't
> see any justification for an additional nickname
> layer.
>
> If I remember correctly, we initially implemented
> nicknames to
> accomodate users with offensive user names. This
> issue is now moot,
> since by consensus offensive user names are not
> allowed anymore.
>
> Axel
>
> __________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Including parametrized snipplets

body:
Axel Boldt <axelboldt at yahoo.com> writes:

>> A Countrybox might start like this:
>> {{CountryFactBox
>> Flag=usa.png
>> Motto=In God We Trust
>> Capital=Washington D.C.
>> ...
>> }}
>
> I find this approach very simple and elegant.

It looks very cryptic to me; don't invent yet another markup language!
Please, go for proper SGML based on the so called 'Reference Concreate
Syntax':

    <CountryFactBox>
    <Flag>usa.png
    <Motto>In God We Trust
    <Capital>Washington D.C.
    ...
    [empty line]

The [empty line] will end the block.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |    _-\_<,
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home)               |   (*)/'(*)


body:
Can someone please explain what we're talking about
here?  I am totally confused.  Are we talking about
inventing some sort of new language to create country
codes?  If not, just what ARE we talking about?  I'm
so confused, I dont't think I'd ever use whatever it
is we're talking about.

Zoe

--- Karl Eichwalder <ke at gnu.franken.de> wrote:
> Jens Frank <JeLuF at gmx.de> writes:
>
> > Can we agree on starting it with something else
> than just the name?
> > E.g. <Include:CountryFactBox>? This would ease the
> parsing. Having
> > the variable names in <> brackets is just
> syntactical sugar and fine
> > with me.
>
> Sure, it's just a little bit longer.  But don't use
> "<xi:...>", that's
> XML'ish and means something different (roughly:
> including _external_
> data).
>
> --
>
>     |      ,__o
> http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/
>     |    _-\_<,
> ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home)
>     |   (*)/'(*)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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body:
>>As long as they aren't doctored or staged,
photographs are about as NPOV as it gets around
here.<<

See the discussion on [[Talk:Saddam Hussein]] about
how the photo of Saddam carrying a rifle was, somehow,
in and of itself, POV.

Zoe

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from_name: Jens Frank

body:
On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 03:04:45AM -0500, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > (Jens Frank <JeLuF at gmx.de>):
> >
> >

> > [[Image:%%Image%%]]

> >
> > ''%%Label%%''
> >
> >

> >
> > In an article, it can be used by its name:
> >
> > {{ImageFloatingRight
> > Image=Eiffel tower.jpg
> > Label=The Eiffel Tower in Paris
> > }}
>
> That's about 10 times more complex than
>
>   {{floatright}}[[image:usa.png]]

Where is the label below the image? Sure it's easier to generate
just an image to the left than also adding a label beneath it.

>
> but I am intrigued by the idea of parameterized transclusions.
> Another, perhaps simpler, way to do it is to use existing link
> syntax with an "include" namespace:
>
>   [[include:snippet1 | val1 | val2 |
>   namedvar1=val | namedvar2=val]]

Not sure about syntax yet. Just developing the idea of
parameterization. I would prefer something spanning multiple lines.
Some tables for example are rather long, having all fields in a
single row would look

> > This is more flexible than just stylesheets:
>
> Then you obviously don't know stylesheets well. Besides, they give
> a much better separation of content and style, and are a performance
> boost because the style code doesn't change among pages often, and
> so doesn't have to be reloaded by the client.

You've cut the reasons I provided. I know a little about stylesheets I think.
You are right: Includes will cost CPU power. This probably is the biggest
open issue. The flexibility we get by "parameterized transclusions" are more
than we can reach by stylesheets alone.

- We are not limited to the options provided by the developers
  I do not believe it might be useful to have the style sheet
  editable. Looking at all the different colours used by the
  element table or the taxoboxes, I assume we would have a
  bottleneck: Developers adding colour by colour to the stylesheet.
- Some time ago Karl proposed to use definition lists instead of
  tables. This for example would be rather hard to realize using
  stylesheets. Changing a few snippets is a little work, but
  manageable.
- Some report generator languages have means to indicate that a
  block has to be repeated for every dataset:

  Snippet:

         ...

Isotope	Decay Product

        %#REPEAT#%

%%Isotope%%	%%Decay Product

	%#END REPEAT#%

  The code inside of the %#REPEAT#% - %#END REPEAT#% block
  is repeated, e.g. by numbering the variables:

  [[include:ElementBox
    ...
    Isotope1=Be^9
    Decay1=C^7
    Isotope2=Be^10
    Decay2=Cl^6
  ]]

  This would solve the nested-tables-issue. The tables can be
  nested using all the power HTML provides. The details are hidden
  from the user of the table.

Those snippets should be supported by the stylesheet, e.g. to
define table backgrounds depending on the skin used.

> > Possible later additions:
> > - Factsheet wizard that users without HTML-Skills can use to generate
> >   the normal factsheet tables used in so many variants
> > - Fill-in wizard that shows the rendered snippet and has input fields
> >   where the variables are.
>
> I'm not opposed to the ideas of GUIs in general either; but there's
> a lot to be said for a content model and text-based interface simple
> and universal enough to not require one.

OK, the later should not be necessary when the syntax is done "right".
The former might perhaps be interesting. On the other hand, the most
needed tables would be created very fast. The REPEAT-Syntax would allow
the creation of some simple tables covering a wide range of applications.

Regards,

	JeLuF


body:
On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 10:23:10PM +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> Axel Boldt <axelboldt at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> A Countrybox might start like this:
> >> {{CountryFactBox
> >> Flag=usa.png
> >> Motto=In God We Trust
> >> Capital=Washington D.C.
> >> ...
> >> }}
> >
> > I find this approach very simple and elegant.
>
> It looks very cryptic to me; don't invent yet another markup language!
> Please, go for proper SGML based on the so called 'Reference Concreate
> Syntax':
>
>     <CountryFactBox>
>     <Flag>usa.png
>     <Motto>In God We Trust
>     <Capital>Washington D.C.
>     ...
>     [empty line]
>
> The [empty line] will end the block.

Can we agree on starting it with something else than just the name?
E.g. <Include:CountryFactBox>? This would ease the parsing. Having
the variable names in <> brackets is just syntactical sugar and fine
with me.

	JeLuF


body:
Jens Frank <JeLuF at gmx.de> writes:

> Can we agree on starting it with something else than just the name?
> E.g. <Include:CountryFactBox>? This would ease the parsing. Having
> the variable names in <> brackets is just syntactical sugar and fine
> with me.

Sure, it's just a little bit longer.  But don't use "<xi:...>", that's
XML'ish and means something different (roughly: including _external_
data).

--
                                                         |      ,__o
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |    _-\_<,
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home)               |   (*)/'(*)


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] *cough* Wikimedia (was: "interlingual use of
	image")

body:
On Fri, 2003-05-16 at 21:41, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> LDC wrote:
> > Images should not be shared among Wikipedias. it is our goal
> > to have each Wikipedia be complete and self-contained, except
> > for links to the Internet at large. Disk space is cheap--if
> > the same image appears in 10 wikis, then it should be uploaded
> > 10 times and linked locally in each.  That way, when we make
> > a backup of each wiki, each backup contains the whole content.
>
> And how difficult would it be to add meta tags to each shared image for every
> language that links to it? Not very I imagine (what links here already works
> in a similar way).

It would be fairly trivial (once a central image base was set up) to
make per-language image backup dumps that included all images used by
language X.

There's absolutely no reason to make a human being go through the same
upload process ten times; computers are supposed to do repetitive tasks
*for* us. :)

It might be nice to have a firmer, professional legal opinion on the
image copyright problem before we go making it easier to spread images
around, though.

>  I already own Wikimedia.org (notice the "m") which would
> be a great place to have a centralized media repository (and non-profit too,
> BTW).

Which reminds me -- see if you can point the domain name towards
130.94.122.199 (larousse) and I'll set up a stub page in place of the
register.com "welcome to my website" stuff.

> Hard drive space isn't the only resource to consider here; more important is
> our human resources:

Bing bing bing! Give this man a prize.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Richard Grevers

body:
On Fri, 16 May 2003 13:06:53 +0100, Kurt Jansson <jansson at gmx.net> gave
utterance to the following:

>
> BTW, is it just prudery that I seldom see nudity in american movies, or
> are there laws against it? If so, this might become a similar problem.
>
To some extent it is a commercial decision. If a film steps over the
boundary where it will earn a restricted rating then a big chunk of the
potential audience is unable to spend money on it. I think you will find
that the "boundary" moves according to the target audience - an action
movie which will appeal to the young will not get away with as much before
earning an R as an intellectual movie aimed at an older audience.
And of course sometimes the star's contract stipulate's what they will and
will not do.
--
Richard Grevers
Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity.


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

body:
I'm still ok :o)
Anthere defended someone who used someone else nickname to make multi no-npov modification on a article. So, for joke I created an account named "Anth?re" (with accent). Now she seem to care about someone else nickname use ;o) I did no vandalisme with her nickname, just move articles about "nickname usage" and "vulgarity usage" in the right place (in french wikipedia: "wikipedia:Prise de descission, xxxx"). This accout password is "wikipedia" and you can delete it as you want.

Aoineko

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Anthere
  To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org ; wikifr-l at wikipedia.org
  Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 11:49 PM
  Subject: [Wikipedia-l] My identity is being used by another and Aoineko is totally out of his wits

  Aoineko blew it definitly today. He is insulting people and refusing to talk to them, under the motive the user is using the same nickname than another person.

  Since he was totally refusing dialogue, I created two pages to promote discussion on the french wiki

  The first one was to ask other opinions about usage of the nicknames (such as should someone be allowed to use the same nickname than another, should the usage of nicknamed to allowed at all)

  The second page was about the usage of swear words and insults on the french wikipedia. I ask other people opinions about that.

  These pages were very proper and general in their intention

  ---------------

  My proposition was followed by the following points

  1. Aoineko moved the above stated articles to stupid names, soclearly showing he was totally refusing dialogue. He wrote on these articles signing with my name as a nickname. I restored some of them

  2. Second, my account was stolen again (I say again since it already happened on the 1rst of january as Brion would remember I guess). So any edits made under my name after 14h00 french hour on any wikipedia are not by me, but a vandal.

  Here http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikip%E9dia:Cas_de_l%27utilisation_par_Athyvement_du_pseudo_de_Athymik_pour_justifier_un_biaisage_d%27article&action=history you can see two edits were made by Anthere

  None were me. This can be checked with the log I guess. I would like to know the ip under which these edits were made.

  My edits were under the ip 81.49.198.47

  I insist again that none of the others are by me.

  I think this will clearly show the non reliability of the log in system.

  I don't think it is necessary I change my password since it is obvious it does not prevent others to use my login name

  3. For the above reason, I ask that please a study be made to see who is the author of the theft could be Aoineko.

  4. For the above reasons also, (insults, abusive reversion, swear words, refuse to dialog), I hereby indicate I consider Aoineko should be given a break from sysophood to give him the time to recover. I think his behavior is right now being very detrimental of the project. Giving very poor view of the encyclopedia, driving editors away, and censuring those he does not agree with. On top of that, my own reputation will clearly suffer from that, as the one who stole my account is saying bad things.

  I cannot even try to put that back, since others users will be confused between who is me and who is not me

  Please

  5. I also ask shelter from the english wikipedia.

  At least , this is my email. Let's pray nobody steal it. Only words said here are mine

  Anthere

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from_name: Anthere

body:
--- Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
> >Toby Bartels wrote:
>
> >>A contributor from France can decide what risk she
> wants to take
> >>in posting potentially illegal material while in
> that country.
> >>But I shouldn't use my influence on Wikipedia
> policy to stop her.
> >>(I don't know if this paragraph is in disagreement
> with you or not.)
>
> >Why do you use a "she" ?
>
> As you suspected,
> because you were the first French contributor to
> come to mind.
> But of course I don't mean to imply that I mean you
> specifically,
> just as writing "he" would not have implied that I
> meant Aoineko
> (the first male French contributor to come to my
> mind just now).
>
> I wrote "she", thought ?That "she" is because of
> Anthere, isn't it??,
> decided ?Well, it's no worse than "he" and better
> than "ze".?, and kept it.
> But really, I should have changed it to "they".

s/he is fine too :-)

That is what the user Anthere and the user Anth?re
would use I guess.

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] interlingual use of image

body:
--- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> wrote:
> > (Tomos at Wikipedia <wiki_tomos at hotmail.com>):
> > As I understand, there are two ways to use an
> image from
> > another language-wikipedia...
> > Is one way more recommended than the other?
>
> Images should not be shared among Wikipedias. it is
> our goal
> to have each Wikipedia be complete and
> self-contained, except
> for links to the Internet at large. Disk space is
> cheap--if
> the same image appears in 10 wikis, then it should
> be uploaded
> 10 times and linked locally in each.  That way, when
> we make
> a backup of each wiki, each backup contains the
> whole content.

Perhaps
Would it be thinkable then, that when we upload an
image, on whatever wikipedia, we have a list provided
with the opportunity to add the other wikipedia to
which we want to add the image at the same time.
Somehow, a common place for upload ? With as many
description areas as languages chosen.
Hence, we would have separate space, but common upload
facility ?

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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] User preferences changes

body:
More guinea-pigging for the new server. :)  Some slight changes
installed on the English wiki and put in CVS:

[X] Show preview before edit box and not after it
  (default: on)

  Not new, but it's now on by default, as requested by many people
  and opposed by no one. Existing user accounts will keep whatever was
  selected, so if you haven't turned it on, give it a try.

  (While we're on the subject, may I propose moving the copyright/
  license notice to come _before_ the save button so people will
  actually be able to see it?)

[ ] Disable page caching
  (default: off)

  Changes the HTTP headers to tell your browser not to cache pages.
  May help for those with oddly behaving proxies or to work around
  some cache bugs temporarily. Most people should not need this; it's
  just a workaround for those having problems. Anyone who tries it,
  please let me know if it helps. Or if it doesn't :)

Server time is now: 07:20
Local time display: 07:20
Offset: 0
[ Fill in from browser ]

  I've also added a JavaScript-based button to ask your browser for the
  appropriate timezone offset, for those who may not be able to guess
  from the now-displayed server time & currently selected local time
  variant.

  Tested in Mozilla and Konqueror.

I think we'll have to rewrite the preferences screen soon, it's a bit
cluttered. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] User preferences changes

body:
More guinea-pigging for the new server. :)  Some slight changes
installed on the English wiki and put in CVS:

[X] Show preview before edit box and not after it
  (default: on)

  Not new, but it's now on by default, as requested by many people
  and opposed by no one. Existing user accounts will keep whatever was
  selected, so if you haven't turned it on, give it a try.

  (While we're on the subject, may I propose moving the copyright/
  license notice to come _before_ the save button so people will
  actually be able to see it?)

[ ] Disable page caching
  (default: off)

  Changes the HTTP headers to tell your browser not to cache pages.
  May help for those with oddly behaving proxies or to work around
  some cache bugs temporarily. Most people should not need this; it's
  just a workaround for those having problems. Anyone who tries it,
  please let me know if it helps. Or if it doesn't :)

Server time is now: 07:20
Local time display: 07:20
Offset: 0
[ Fill in from browser ]

  I've also added a JavaScript-based button to ask your browser for the
  appropriate timezone offset, for those who may not be able to guess
  from the now-displayed server time & currently selected local time
  variant.

  Tested in Mozilla and Konqueror.

I think we'll have to rewrite the preferences screen soon, it's a bit
cluttered. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] My identity is being used by another and Aoineko is totally out of his wits

body:
Hi,
I'm not sure is the right place to discuss, is it ?
;o) Don't you feel odd that 2 french speaker are speaking in english !?
I never refuse discussion with you, and I only create the Anth?re account. I suppose it is easy to prove Anth?re, Anth?re and Antherement was created by differente users. Perhaps I'm not the only who wanted to make you a joke ;o)
To be honest, I don't understand well what is your thought about nickname usage.
Please explain you (in french) in this page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%E9dia:Prise_de_d%E9cision%2C_Usage_des_surnoms_homonymes.

Aoineko
  Ah yes. I defend the right to anyone to edit, including that specific editor.
  This said, I may defend his edits, but I have stated in the page I created on nicknames, I wanted the nickname system to be removed.
  But here you say I am supporting this system. I am not.

  Either you are lying about my support to avoid facing the fact I support the article, not the author, or you are entirely confused between all the edits you made under Anth?re, Anth?re, Anth?re, Antherement and so on.
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body:
--- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> wrote:
> I don't speak much French, so I am unqualified to
> judge the merits
> of the argument going on at the French wiki now. But
> let me offer an
> opinion that may help guide those who do understand:
>
> In the American legal system (and probably others),
> you can win or
> lose a case on its merits, but you can also lose by
> not following
> the rules of the system. This is called "procedural
> default", and is
> necessary to keep the system working: if a party
> refuses to show up
> for court, or complains to the wrong court, or
> doesn't respond
> properly to the court's questions, etc., then the
> court will not
> waste its time digging further into the issues of
> the case--it will
> simply declare that the uncooperative party loses.
> If someone wants
> a dispute resolved, it falls upon him to ensure that
> he treats the
> resolution system seriously and follows the process,
> otherwise
> there's no point in having a system at all. In
> extreme cases, if a
> litigant actively interferes with or subverts the
> process itself,
> casuing the court to waste its time and money, the
> party can even
> be sanctioned or charged with contempt of court.
>
> When Wikipedia admins are called upon to resolve
> disputes, they
> should have the same powers. If it's something like
> a dispute over
> naming or content, a user who ignores legitimate
> questions posed
> to him, argues in the wrong place, and so on, should
> not be
> surprized when a sysop rules that his opponent's
> argument wins
> simply because his opponent behaved in a more
> civilized,
> productive manner. Likewise, there are some offenses
> that are
> so egregious as to merit sanctions: editing other
> people's quotes
> to misrepresent their opinions (but not just
> spelling mistakes
> and such), deliberate deception or dishonesty of
> other kinds,
> like lying about what one has said previously, or
> about what
> someone else has said.
>
> I don't put mere hot-headedness into any of those
> categories:
> people get excited and say nasty things, and I don't
> have a problem
> with that as long as they keep the system working.
> But when they
> actively work to defeat the system, they need to
> lose, or the
> system stops working.
>
> So, those admins who want to take some
> responsibility for the
> foreign wikis, do it. Don't be afraid to tell an
> uncooperative
> user that he is losing precisely because he refuses
> to cooperate.
> Block users, temporarily or permanently if
> necessary, if they
> actively work to subvert the system. If you need
> more technical
> assistance to exercise those powers, ask for it.
> Take control.
> Do what's necessary. We'll probably support you
> unless a dozen
> reasonable-sounding users give us good reasons not
> to.

I thank you for these very wise comments Lee.

Since I was apparently not clear yesterday, I would
like to explain exactly the reason for my ire.

I have a problem with the very liberal use of swear
words and argotic insults toward other editors in case
of disagreement. Insults which are permanently
inscribed in the discussion pages, visible in history
and recent changes. I think that is very detrimental
with the image of a serious and reliable encyclopedia.
When I express my concern, Aoineko answers not using
swear words and insults would be hypocrisy, so better
speak plain. In spite of numerous comments I made
about this, he goes on using these words with no
consideration with my concern over these.
I believe similar concerns were adressed on the
english wiki with the change of TMC name. This is of
course an issue of the french. For this reason, I
started yesterday serious discussion meta page to try
to find a consensus. Which resulted in vandalism
toward me and my identity. Issue for which I asked
help from the developpers who have access to the
database.

I see none of my request have been answered, but that
you proposed some french take care of the matter
themselves. However, I know of no french I would trust
enough to have direct access to the database. However
I trust current developpers, in particular because
they are out of the process (do you see what I mean
?). So there is a problem here.

To go back to the vandalism issue, I think it is
likely to be a general concern, as it can occur on any
wikipedia (in particular since user tables are
separated). Which is also the reason why I raised to
the point on the main list.

Let me state first that in case anybody, under any
wikipedia, under any of the following user names

Anth?re
Anth?re
Anth?re
Anth?re
Antherement

doing any vandalism, porn image upload, use of swear
words, insults to contributors, copyright
infringment...

are not me Anthere
You may report any bad action to me, and consider by
default Aoineko is the author of it.

I would like also to add that in french Anthere is
written Anth?re. Which is why I often sign Anth?re.
However, my account is Anthere because my browser does
not handle unicode, and I wanted my user name to be
the same on any Wikipedia. For exemple, I can't have
an accentuated letter account on metapedia or in
wiktionary.

However, I often sign Anth?re since I consider this is
the proper spelling of my name.

Now, there are 4 names spelled very similarly to mine,
one of which I consider my real name, plus one clearly
inspired. All these user names are signing using the
same nickname than mine (Anthere without accent).

In short, the contributions made under these name are
quite likely to appear to be mine (because of the very
short similarity), and the comments made in talk page
will be confused with mine as well.

The name Anth?re (with nick Anthere) made up by
Aoineko wrote insults toward Aoineko himself
(something like "Aoineko is a fucking asshole").

While I can consider ok that others are using user
names very similar to mine, I think this was
deliberate attempt to make other believe I (Anthere)
said this about Aoineko. Hence, that is not simple
fun, that is direct attack and attempt to twist other
people perceptions.

I think that is wrong.

I wonder if Fred would appreciate if Tannin was
creating an account [[User:Fred Ba?der]], using the
nick Fred Bauder is using, and writing under this name
"Tannin is a fucking asshole".

<aside comment>This is just an example of current
events, I am totally sure Tannin would not do this, it
is just that Ba?der seems to me a plausible german
name</aside comment>

Deliberate deception could be the word I am looking
for. Perhaps.
But apparently, it does not deserve any sanction.
Not even an apology from the real author.
Not even check up that the different identities were
done by one or by several people (in case developpers
would not want to give ip, saying how many ips would
have been nice).

Consequently, I will consider Aoineko is the author of
the whole mess.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The clitoris guy

body:
> How can reporting the law and the opinions of the
> people be considered
> something that should be subject to censorship?  I
> know there is the
> European HR tradition of limiting free speech for
> specific reasons, but such
> censorship of legal opinions and legal arguments
> goes to the core of one's
> conception of a free and democratic society.

I think the french law is certainly far less
restricting than the current censorship imposed on the
french wiki.
Typical subjects censored are everything around race,
racialism, racism, nazism, fachism, holocause,
judaism, racist insults, lepen...

However, censorship can also be more snicky

For example, Jos? Bove article is also censored. The
reason given of the censorship (aside from censoring
editors because they use the same nick than other
contributors) is that adding too much of one side
would unbalance the article. As a consequence, the
solution chosen is not to put more of the minor side,
but rather to remove some of the major side. Which is
quite a interesting option toward success of a
complete article. One has the right to add a fact only
he is similarly himself add the other side.

I think the problem was solved this morning as someone
created another Jos? Bov? article (called [[Jos?
Bov?/NPOV]]). This article removed in particular the
whole list of condemnations of Jos? Bov? by french law
except one in 1998. In case some of you don't know,
Jos? is currently in prison for his illegal (by french
law) actions of destruction of gmo fields and mac
donald.

However, indicating Jos? has been fined and is
currently in prison is a POV statement and has clearly
to be removed, as probably untrue.

I think it quite funny that previous contributors were
censored as their additions were said liable by french
law, and that now contributions are censored because
they are reporting french law decisions.

Perhaps, the english article on Jos? Bov? could report
the truth. Currently, it is a rather poor article.

> completely agree this is
> shocking Anthere! Maybe there should be articles
> about these taboo French
> subjects on English pages.  My French is good enough
> to translate into
> English, I am sure there are others who could help
> translate (even maybe
> getting it started with machine translation, that
> would be allowed under the
> open content license no? Perhaps you could put the
> banned French versions on
> English talk pages make a list called [[List of
> banned French pages
> translating into English]] and then we can built up
> the pages as people have
> time to translate them into English. Wouldn't it be
> o.k. to keep the French
> texts on the talk pages?

Interesting
Most would be difficult to translate as not pages are
usually censored, but part of the content.
But, we could at least update the Bov? article
I will think about that.

As far as the _very_ strict
> puritanic tradition in
> the US, perhaps there should be a wiki server in
> Canada or some other
> country that is more liberal minded in some respects
> about allowing people
> to discuss and publish/broadcast "taboo" subjects.
>
> Alex756

Interesting proposition. Especially since Canada is
also speaking French. I note that no french canadian
contributors has ever complained a contribution was
liable by canadian law.

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body:
Anthere wrote:
>....
>While I can consider ok that others are using
>user names very similar to mine, I think this
>was deliberate attempt to make other believe I
>(Anthere) said this about Aoineko. Hence, that
>is not simple fun, that is direct attack and
>attempt to twist other people perceptions.
>
>I think that is wrong.
>....

I also think that is wrong.

Distorting the messages of other user's is one of the main reasons why Lir was
first banned. Being excessively rude is the reason why DW was banned. But the
available evidence you have provided thus far indicates that Aoineko has
effectively done both of these things /and/ has masqueraded as you in what
you believe is an attempt to discredit you. Utra un-wiki if true.

Aoineko has also admitted to pretending he was you by saying it was a "joke."
However, given how long I remember you complaining about an "imposter" I
would have to say that I tend to suspect a less than jovial motive. There is
/nothing/ funny about pretending to be someone else when it is obvious that
that person (in this case you Anthere) was obviously distressed by this.

I like Lee's post talking about "Procedural default" and await Aoineko's side
of the story.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [WikiEN-l] A comprehensive list of urgent software modifications

body:
ROFL !

--- Tony Wilson <list at redhill.net.au> wrote:
> OK, I have to admit that my suggestion of adding: IF
> {USERNAME <>
> "Lir"} THEN {SET STATUS = "admin"} didn't work. But
> how about we set
> the software gurus to implementing the following
> improvements?
>
>
> IF {Page_Content = "politics" OR "freedom of
> speech"} THEN SET
> Database_Server =  "California"
>
> IF {Page_Content = "nudity"} THEN SET
> Database_Server =  "France"
>
> IF {Page_Content = "uploaded picture" AND
> Copyright_Expiry_Date > 1900}
>  THEN SET Database_Server =  "Australia"
>
> IF {EDIT_TOPIC="Macedonia"} AND {USER =  "anon IP
> address"} THEN {SET
> PAGE = READ-ONLY}
>
> IF {USER =  "anon IP address"} AND {HOST DOMAIN =
> "AOL"} THEN {SET USER
> STATUS = "blocked"}
>
> IF {TO = "wikien-l at wikipedia.org"} AND {TEXT = "you
> idiot" OR "you
> fool" OR "can't you understand?"} THEN {CREATE NEW
> EMAIL: SUBJECT = "I
> am sorry"}
>
> IF {USER = "Tannin"} AND {TIME => 3:00AM} THEN
> {REDIRECT CONTENT: "dev:
> null"}
>
>
> Tony Wilson
> (Tannin)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
> I read Cunc as commenting only on your histrionic style.  In your first
> sentence that I quote above, you characterize his complaints as "nonsense".
> There are people and cultures for whom that alone is mortally offensive, and
> yet you toss it off as if you think everybody will just automatically
> agree with you.

Yes the issue is often more one of attitude rather than substance. Really it
comes down to respect. Dissing folks is hazardous.

Fred


from_name: Tony Wilson

subject: [WikiEN-l] cameras and point of view

body:
Cameras don't have a point of view?

Think about it, huh?

(Hint: that's what "point of view" *means* - a place from where you
look at things, which is not the same as looking at things from any
other place or at any other time. And it is *not* just an analogy: the
selection of a photograph, *any* photograph is in itself a statement
about the subject, often a much more powerful statement than you can
fit into the caption or the body text.)

Tony Wilson
(Tannin)


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] New SpezialPage: qualifier?

body:
Thomas Corell wrote:
> In the German wikipedia a list of the used qualifiers in the titles was
> discussed, and most of the participants think it will be a interesting
> feature.
>
> I know I have expressed it wrong, therefore an example:
>
> Cell (biology) is a homonym (cell) with a qualifier (biology). To get a
> proper list of those qualifiers and modify or eliminate wrong ones, a
> list would be very helpful.

On the German Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AListe_der_Homonymzus%E4tze
I now have the MySQL code to get these simple lists. Currenly the generated
lists are on my server at home, but to get an impression it will be
sufficient.

The MySQL code comes with no warrany ;) On my Test-Wikipedia @home it rums
fine. Don't know how much trouble it couse on live-wikipedia.
Possibly the next hack will be a SpecialPage....

--
Smurf

smurf at AdamAnt.mud.de
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


body:
>I think some people think photos have more potential to disturb because
>they are presumably photos of a real person (that is, a photo of a clitoris
>is the photo of a specific woman's clitoris; a drawing of a clitoris can be
>a drawing of no one's clitoris -- but I think this is a side issue).

I agree with Steven, except for the above. I think the opposite is true. The
image of a photograph of a clitoris is a 'real' clitoris, whereas a drawing
is some artist's 'imaged version' of a clitoris. So whereas the real thing
can be neutral, the imaged one can carry the artist's POV.

OK. A bit of humour after this ongoing discussion. A friend (female) walked
in as I was reading the wiki-list. She knows that, whether through nature or
nuture, it has been decreed that I am not one likely to have much interest
in the clitoris stakes. And she walked in to find me with a page of emails
all with the obvious words 'the clitoris guy'. So after a moment of puzzling
quizzical looking at me, she asked, "are you trying to tell me something?
Are you 'really' straight?" So thanks, guys'n'gals. After months of
convincing her that as much as she desparately is in love with me, I ain't
available, being unambiguously gay, she now thinks I 'really' am straight
after all and having difficulty 'coming out' as straight to all my gay
friends. Zeeech! Wiki has called me communist, a fascist, a liberal, an
ultra-conservative, a monarchist, a republican. And now straight!!!! How
much more of this??? *grin* So the next time you send around an email on
'the clitoris guy', please attach the words 'PS Nora. JT IS gay!!!' :-))

_________________________________________________________________
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: photography and POV

body:
Hello all,

I read my email this morning, and yuck.  It's more
than a littl peevish.  I apologize for the tone of it,
it's quite inappropriate.

Maybe we could set up a page on meta discussing photos
and POV.  the topic has come up at least twice on
wikipedia in the last year, though I'm not sure where.
 I thought one of them was [[talk:Rachel Corrie]] but
it wasn't.  then I thought maybe [[talk:Saddam
Hussein]] and yes, somewhat, but that's also not the
discussion I was thinking of.

best,

kq

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subject: [WikiEN-l] User preferences changes

body:
On Sat, 2003-05-17 at 01:31, sannse wrote:
> *There is sometimes a problem with tables when the preview is at the top:
> If the article text is shorter than the table, the table disappears under
> the text entry box on preview.  See http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azawakh
> for example.  I think we need a <br clear="all"> before the text entry box?

Done, please test.

> *Could the "has not yet been saved!" warning go at the top *and* bottom of
> the page?   It works well as it is when the preview is on top, but is not
> noticeable if the preview is at the bottom.  I've been known to forget by
> the time I've scrolled to the bottom of the page!

Ah, may be useful :)

> Many thanks for all your work Brion, I hope you know how appreciated you are

:)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] vandalism

body:
We're having a fairly persistent vandal right now.

Since I'm not a developer, it's fairly easy for me to
make suggestions.  :-)  I know it's a joke among
programmers--"this will be simple," etc.  Anyway,
here's my idea: would it be possible to change the
function of a ban so that it prevented a banned IP
from changing a login or, if not logged in, prevented
that IP from logging in?  Is that something we would
want to do, or not?

Just a thought.

kq

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from_name: JFrost8401 at aol.com

body:
LOL

nice one Tony

Jim
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from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] User preferences changes

body:
Brion fixed:

>>[X] Show preview before edit box and not after it
  (default: on)

That's good.  It will save confusion I'm sure.

There are still a couple of little things here (at least I hope they are
little)

*There is sometimes a problem with tables when the preview is at the top:
If the article text is shorter than the table, the table disappears under
the text entry box on preview.  See http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azawakh
for example.  I think we need a <br clear="all"> before the text entry box?

*Could the "has not yet been saved!" warning go at the top *and* bottom of
the page?   It works well as it is when the preview is on top, but is not
noticeable if the preview is at the bottom.  I've been known to forget by
the time I've scrolled to the bottom of the page!

Many thanks for all your work Brion, I hope you know how appreciated you are

Regards,

sannse


body:
On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 10:26:59PM -0700, Zoe wrote:
> Can someone please explain what we're talking about
> here?  I am totally confused.  Are we talking about
> inventing some sort of new language to create country
> codes?  If not, just what ARE we talking about?  I'm
> so confused, I dont't think I'd ever use whatever it
> is we're talking about.
>

Hello Zoe,

Wikipedia normally uses an easy markup language. It uses
''' to make things bold or == for headings. After a user has hit
the 'edit'-button for the first time, he gets an idea of how to
fix an article very fast. The learning curve is rather flat.

For some articles, we use those nice tables. E.g.
http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Beryllium&action=edit
It starts like this:

[[de:Beryllium]][[eo:Berilo]][[nl:beryllium]][[pl:Beryl]][[fr:B?ryllium]]

[[Lithium]] - '''Beryllium''' - [[Boron]]

'''Be'''
[[Magnesium|Mg]]

[[image:Be-TableImage.png|Click for description]]

[[Periodic table/Standard Table|Full table]]

Those articles are not easy to edit. They are frightening.

Lee proposed a new syntax for tables, similar to what
some other wiki engines already provide. It was rather
easy to read and to understand. He provided some extensions
to add color and such to the tables. Not that simple any-
more but OK. But: The new syntax for tables wasn't power-
full enough to generate the Beryllium-table. It might
have been OK for Countryboxes, though.

Some others proposed: Take the tables into a different
article (in a seperate namespace) and include them
like an image is included. On first sight, an editor
would just see pretty Wiki markup and a link
[[Table:Beryllium]]. He would have to click on a
new button to edit the table.

Two things I didn't like about this:
- The article's content should be in the article, not
  distributed to several places.
- A lot of duplication will be done. All Countryboxes
  are identical except for the content. "Write it once,
  use it multiple times" is a principle to increase
  efficiency.

My proposal in short:
- The ugly HTML-code for tables will be banned from the
  article-namespace.
- HTML will be written to pages in a seperate namespace.
- Those pages will be parametrizable. So a table can
  be layouted once and used multiple times.
- They are included into the article by some simple
  syntax assigning text to the parameters.

The concept is not only useable for tables but for
other text blocks, too: Copyright infringement notices,
images, "I am not a lawyer/doctor"-Warnings, etc:
     [[Include:IANAL]]
 or
     [[Include:Copyright infringement|URL=http://where.he.got.it.from/]]

It's not about country codes. This is just an example to
illustrate what we are thinking about. In this mail, I
used the Beryllium-table as an example.

I hope I summarized the thread correctly.

Best regards,

JeLuF


from_name: Axel Boldt

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Getting rid of nicknames

body:
--- Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm really not sure what you're saying.  Are you
> saying that every user must use their real name?

I was not saying that (even though I could have said it, since I agree
with it). I was saying that the nickname feature of the software should
be scrapped. It allows to use a name different from the user name when
signing comments on talk pages. The nickname can be specified on the
user preferences page and can be changed at any time.

Axel

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from_name: Mark Wojtowicz

subject: [Wikitech-l] SpecialContributions.php

body:
"Thomas Corell" said:
> I found this in SpecialContributions.php (about line 72):
>
> if ( 0 == $nCur && 0 == $nOld && 0 == $rcrows ) {
>    $wgOut->addHTML( "\n<p>" . wfMsg( "nocontribs" ) . "</p>\n" );
>    return;
> }
>
> What I'm missing is the $rcrows variable initialisation. Hopefully
> php init it with 0, but I'm not sure.

I don't know where or if $rcrows is initialized, but uninitialized variables
in PHP 4 are set to NULL which == 0.

--
Mark


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Blocking logged in users

body:
Any news on this being made possible?  I know it will have disadvantages and
limitations, but after a couple of hours reverting silliness it starts to
look very useful.

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=The
Stick

sannse


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The clitoris guy

body:
--- Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Interesting proposition. Especially since Canada is
> also speaking French. I note that no french canadian
> contributors has ever complained a contribution was
> liable by canadian law.

Well, isn't the French Wiki Parisian French and not
Canadian French? Is there a difference between the two
when written?

--LittleDan

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from_name: Eric Demolli

subject: [WikiEN-l] cameras and point of view

body:
POV =  point of view.

Read carefully, everything is in the words. Obviously a photo has a POV.

Ericd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Saintonge" <saintonge at telus.net>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] cameras and point of view

> Toby Bartels wrote:
>
> >Tannin wrote in part:
> >
> >>The
> >>selection of a photograph, *any* photograph is in itself a statement
> >>about the subject, often a much more powerful statement than you can
> >>fit into the caption or the body text.
> >>
> >
> >That's why photography is (or can be) *art*.
> >
> That's why Yossuf Karsh's portrait of Winston Churchill has become so
> famous.  The United Nations photo-montage "The Family of Man" (ca. 1960)
> is in this league.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Getting rid of nicknames

body:
--- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> wrote:

> I still think it's useful--I want my user page to be headed by
> a complete name, but using that long name in attributing comments
> seems like overkill. Plus, it gives people the ability to
> personalize a bit while not hiding behind a psudonym entirely.
>
> Like many features of the software, I think this one just gives
> us a greater opportunity to judge the character of the user: if
> someone changes nicknames to deliberately obscure the attribution
> of comments, then we know how seriously to take those comments.
>
> If users seriously abuse any feature of the software and disrupt
> our goals, we can consider taking action. But I don't see this
> particular feature as more abusable than any other.

Well, it clearly has been abused, though not in the way you suggest: I
don't think people have used it to deliberately obscure attributions
(except maybe in the recent case on the French Wikipedia). People have
changed nicks around and have used nicks with non-printable characters
however.

Even if used as intended (as an abbreviation of the overly long user
name, I take it?) it causes more problems than it solves. New users do
not know that "LDC" refers to the same person as "Lee Daniel Crocker"
and cannot be expected to deduce it. After they follow a link to "LDC",
they may realize it, but why should they have to memorize irrelevant
facts like that for hundreds of contributors? This is an additional
hurdle for newbies who already have enough on their plate when trying
to penetrate the complex organism Wikipedia.

How is signing on a talk page with "Lee Daniel Crocker" any worse than
signing with "LDC" and why do you call it "overkill"? It's not like you
have to type it. Are we that short on bandwidth/disk space? :-)

Axel

P.S. What does the software do if somebody signs up with the username "LDC"?

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Oualmakran Youssef wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I think that non French Wikipedian needs more details
>about what happens and what had happenned.
>
Thank you!

>(details snipped)
>
>Then Aoineko created the accounts similar to "anthere". He admitted it
>was a joke and that he did not created all the conterfeit.
>
User names that confuse should be outlawed, but imposing controls is
next to impossible.  Of the names which Anthere lists I don't think we
can do anything about Antherement, because that involves a subjective
judgement about a situation.  A parallel situation could develop if
someone acquired the rights to the domain wickipedia.org.  If we managed
to shut that down the whole problem could just flare up again at
wikepedia.org or wikipaedia.org, etc., etc., etc.

The other names that differ only by an accent can and should be banned.
 This has not been a problem in English because a lot of English
speakers don't know how to put an accent on a letter.  As we migrate
toward UTF-8 it should be possible for the system to treat the user
names "Anthere" and "Anth?re" and even "Anth?re" as identical.

>Aoineko admitted that he did make the account ''anth?re''
>to show how dangerous the use of similar nick may be.
>
Ed Poor used a similar tactic to make a point about obscene user names
when the TMC debate was raging.  One of the problems with such tactics
is that it gets people more worked up and into flame wars.  It often
backfires into the face of the person using it.

>I hope that things would become quieter and that they will both
>try to work together on the wiki even if they do not share the same
>policy. I thing it would be good if they stay both, even if they do
>not share the same policy (reverts/non-reverts on NPOV, how to deal
>with vandals, etc)  but they share the same philosophy
>(make knowledge availabe) and they same goal (make Wikipedia a big encyclopedia)
>
They are both established veteran contributors with much to offer who do
what they do with unquestionably good intentions.

>Hope this email will be useful and that no one will
>over-react to this email.
>
We needed a summary from someone who was not part of the war.  I felt
too lazy to read it all to develop my own understanding.  I'm confident
that we are all thankful for your efforts as a peacemaker

>Youssef
>
>Sorry for my typos. No one here to edit
> my email and correct my spelling mistakes :-(
>
The important thing is that you made your point.  Typos and spelling are
not so important on the mailing list, unless they give a wrong message.

Eclecticology


subject: [WikiEN-l] vandalism

body:
koyaanis qatsi wrote:

>We're having a fairly persistent vandal right now.
>
>Since I'm not a developer, it's fairly easy for me to
>make suggestions.  :-)  I know it's a joke among
>programmers--"this will be simple," etc.
>
Simple solutions like simple politicians make things too complicated. :-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: photography and POV

body:
The Cunctator wrote:

>On 5/17/03 10:48 AM, "koyaanis qatsi" <obchodnakorze at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Maybe we could set up a page on meta discussing photos
>>and POV.  the topic has come up at least twice on
>>wikipedia in the last year, though I'm not sure where.
>>I thought one of them was [[talk:Rachel Corrie]] but
>>it wasn't.  then I thought maybe [[talk:Saddam
>>Hussein]] and yes, somewhat, but that's also not the
>>discussion I was thinking of.
>>
>
>As I've said, a big part of the broken usage of POV and NPOV on Wikipedia to
>mean something other than what God intended.
>
>(Namely, that the neutral point of view is a Platonic ideal.)
>
As they used to say back on The Farm:  "All Points of View are neutral
but some are more neutral than others." ;-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The clitoris guy

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>--- Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Interesting proposition. Especially since Canada is
>>also speaking French. I note that no french canadian
>>contributors has ever complained a contribution was
>>liable by canadian law.
>>
>
>Well, isn't the French Wiki Parisian French and not
>Canadian French? Is there a difference between the two
>when written?
>
The suituation is identical to the one between American and British
English.  It also comes up in Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch.

Ec