from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia, again

body:
Probably not. Dpotop's original message assumed that everyone was
already familiar with the situation.

I will give a brief summary, trying to be unbiased -- i.e., I will
include the points of view of some of my opponents.

Some background --

According to some people, Moldovan is a synonym for Romanian.
According to some people, the Cyrillic alphabet was imposed on the
Moldovan ASSR by Stalin. According to others, the Cyrillic alphabet
was in continuous use in the MASSR thruought its history with an
exception of 15 years in the interwar period.

There are additional (and mostly irrelvant) arguments about whether or
not Moldovan was created as a separate language from Romanian by
Stalin, or whether it developed naturally.

That aside, the main issue here seems to be use of the Cyrillic script.

According to some people, nobody uses the Cyrillic script to write
this language anymore. According to other people, all people who use
the script are forced to against their will. According to yet others,
there are people who use the script by choice.

According to all parties involved, "Moldovan" using the Cyrillic
script is one of 3 official languages of Transnistria. What is
disputed, however, is the status of Transnistria. Please see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria for details.

Some people have gone so far as to say a Wikipedia using Cyrillic
script is an insult "to all Romanians who died" at the hands of Stalin
for the Latin alphabet, although that is a bit of a stretch.

Another contentious issue is the quality of the Wikipedia. There have
been allegations of poor grammar, misspellings, etc., but the people
who claim they exist don't bother to point them out or fix them.

You may judge the quality of the articles yourself, see
http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Randompage

There are other issues, for example the villification of yours truly
by the other side as "an evil stalinistic KGB Jewish-American Russian
agent who does not know Romanian". Perhaps not in the same sentence,
but I have been called all of the above at some point or another in
some language.

Ironically, the "does not know Romanian" part is usually accused in
Romanian, and I understand it. (To be fair, Danutz would beg to differ
-- he claims to have "figured out" how I supposedly use a machine
translator to read and write)

Mark

On 27/06/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> Am I the only one here that is completely an utterly confused?
>
> mboverload_confused
>
> On 6/27/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Now, here's some proof of deception.
> >
> > Jacky/Dpotop claims here that the reasoning behind the proposal to
> > close the Moldovan Wikipedia is that there are no native contributors
> > (which is no longer true exactly).
> >
> > As this message from an ally of his, Dapiks/Constanteanu shows, this
> > is not the case; rather it is politically motivated:
> >
> > "Buna,
> >
> > A inceput un vot pentru stergerea "Wikipediei Moldovenesti", o creatie
> > a unui Evreu-American, cu origini suspecte in Basarabia si care nu
> > vorbeste limba wikipediei la care pretinde a fi sysop. Il cheama Node
> > ue si pentru a crea impresia ca lumea doreste aceasta wikipedie, a
> > apelat la toti utilizatorii rusi care au venit sa voteze de partea lui
> > desi nu cunosc bine subiectul si li s-a spus ca voteaza pentru
> > supravietuirea alfabetului chirilic. Asa a ajuns ca votul sa fie 31
> > pentru stergerea Mo wiki, si 42 impotriva stergerii - deci in alte
> > cuvinte pentru pastrarea wikipediei in limba "moldoveneasca". Vino si
> > voteaza aici[1] , ca sa sergem acesta creatura cu miros bolshevic,
> > care insulta toti romanii de pe ambele maluri ale Prutului. Node ue
> > le-a spus rusilor sa traduca mesajul lui in limba rusa si sa-l
> > transmita mai departe. Trimite si tu mesajul acesta la toti
> > utilizatorii romani-unionisti sau romani-moldoveni unionisti pe care-i
> > cunosti pe en.wiki sau ro.wiki. Dapiks 23:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"
> >
> > Hopefully some of you can guess what this means, but I will give you a
> > summary of what he said.
> >
> > He says that a vote has begun for the deletion of the "Moldovan
> > Wikipedia" (in quotes), notes that it is the "creation of a
> > Jewish-American with possible origins in Bessarabia" (Bessarabia is a
> > historical term here used in a derogatory context to refer to the
> > modern-day Republic of Moldova). He goes on to say that the
> > Jewish-American's name is "Node ue", and that this person has "called
> > all Russian users to vote on his side even though they do not know the
> > subject well". He then notes the current number of votes in a
> > belittling manner. He goes on to urge people to come and vote to
> > delete "this ugly Bolshevik creation which insults all Romanians on
> > both sides of the Pruth".
> >
> > The particularly political part is at the end when he says "Send this
> > message also to all Romanian or Romano-Moldovan unionist users which
> > you know on en.wiki or mo.wiki."
> >
> > An urge to spread a message to only people of a certain political
> > background seems unacceptable. Yes, I did post at the village pump of
> > the Russian Wikipedia and request a message to be translated into
> > Russian (according to some Romanians, my message was anti-Romanian and
> > deceptive, however when Dpotop posted a counter-argument, most
> > Russians continued to maintain previous opinions). However, I
> > encouraged EVERYONE to vote, which ultimately included one Russian
> > user who voted for the closing of mo.wikipedia.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 24/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everybody,
> > >
> > > Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not
> > completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is
> > back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from
> > [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
> > >
> > > <i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you
> > write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
> > >
> > > No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried
> > to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current
> > version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by
> > Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [
> > http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=11594],
> > which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set
> > by Node_ue.
> > >
> > > After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take
> > position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for
> > closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here
> > [[:ru:?????????:?????/???????#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie
> > concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence
> > of Moldovan editors).
> > >
> > > In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and
> > pretends they are in a different language.
> > >
> > > It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all
> > wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language"
> > different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User
> > mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]],
> > [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
> > >
> > > Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this
> > guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can
> > tell you the same  (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from
> > ro.wiki).
> > >
> > > While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will
> > continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from
> > Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid
> > trolls.
> > >
> > > It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its
> > re-opening and assumes admin rights.
> > >
> > > This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for
> > closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
> > >
> > > Yours sincerely,
> > > [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > >  Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: xaosflux

body:
>From a non-load related perspective though, if a template is HIGHLY USED, it
is likely that people now using it have laid out articles around it (e.g. an
infobox) and making a alrge change to it could change the look and feel of
tons of articles.  For that reason alone, remember it never hurst to bring
it up on the talk page, there's always the chance you also may be trying to
reinvent the wheel with your change as well.

xaosflux

----- Original Message -----
From: <mdd4696 at gmail.com>
To: <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:26 AM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Editing highly used templates

> Hi all,
>
> I'm curious to know exactly what the risk is from editing highly used
> templates. There are several archive header templates on enwiki which
> could potentially be used on many, many pages, and I want to ensure
> that if I make a modification to one of them that it doesn't have any
> ill effects.
>
> If I make one edit to a template used on many infrequently visited
> pages, would that cause issues?
>
> ~Mdd4696
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Wildrick Steele

subject: [Wikitech-l] StringFunctions

body:
On 27/06/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
> You could start by telling us what it is and what it does. :)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>

That sounds reasonable :-)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/StringFunctions
is all I actually know about it.

Wildrick
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Vildricianus


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 6/27/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 27/06/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> > By what definition of hold up?
> > Yes it's does seem to be providing results faster than ever but they
> > haven't stopped being low quality and nearly useless..
>
> You mean the indexing's too out of date, or something else?

The last index update seems to be somewhere between 10th and 20th May.
Could be better.

Meanwhile, could I request that redirects be deprioritised in search
results? For example, search for "Couesnon". The first two matches are
redirects to "Couesnon River", the actual article, which appears 3rd.

Steve


subject: [Wikitech-l] Editing highly used templates

body:
On 6/27/06, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> If there's any reasonable purpose served by editing the template,
> there's no reason to hesitate.  If something puts too much load on the
> servers, the devs will edit the software so that you can't do it or
> it's not a problem; see, for instance, recategorizing templates (which
> is handled in a job queue rather than being executed right away) or
> transcluding templates in sigs (they're automatically substed).  Devs
> handle the backend, don't worry about it.

Could this be written up in red writing somewhere? It seems to be very
common that non-devs tell each other not to do things because "it's
bad for performance" etc.

Steve


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 6/27/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Due to these factors it is always more useful to use google to search Wikipedia.

Out of curiosity, why do the links to search Wikipedia via google and
MSN only appear when the internal search function is down?

Steve


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 6/27/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Meanwhile, could I request that redirects be deprioritised in search
> > results? For example, search for "Couesnon". The first two matches are
> > redirects to "Couesnon River", the actual article, which appears 3rd.
>
> That's possible.

Is it worth my bugzilla'ing?

Steve


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unblock-en-l

body:
On 6/27/06, uninvited at nerstrand.net <uninvited at nerstrand.net> wrote:
> After a good deal of discussion amongst OTRS participants and the WMFCC,
> a conclusion was reached that unblock requests are an internal community
> matter outside of the OTRS mission.
>
> At present, the "contact us" page on the wiki as well as the text of the
> block message encourage users to email info-en@ if they believe they
> have been blocked unfairly.  We would like to change this.

Is this official? Should I update the wikien-l page to tell people
*not* to email for unblock requests?

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

body:
On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:
> okay, i get it, everything is just hunky dory in wikiparadise.
> do not let the fact that wikipedia wastes expertise the way a
> bradley fighting vehicle wastes gas trouble you one teeny bit.

Don't get me wrong, there are things wrong with Wikipedia, but you
don't seem to be particularly effective at identifying them.

Steve


from_name: Philip Welch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikimania discussions

body:
On Jun 27, 2006, at 9:15 PM, SJ wrote:

> The Wikimania meetup from August 4-6th (http://
> wikimania2006.wikimedia.org)
> will draw people from all of the Wikimedia projects. It's a chance
> to meet your
> fellow contributors and discuss issues affecting the projects

So, basically, it's this mailing list, except with less idiots and
the ability to punch in the nose those who do show up? Damn, if I
could make it I'd go!

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR policy proposal: No "Gotcha" rule

body:
Pedro Sanchez wrote:

>On 6/25/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On 6/24/06, fireislandparadise <fireislandparadise at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>My problem is that not requiring a warning encourages gaming by making it
>>>easier for a more savvy edit warrior to take advantage of another editor and
>>>play "gotcha". This is particularly the case as most editors aren't aware of
>>>the new "unrelated reverts" interpretation. If someone is savvy enough to
>>>complain on ANI/3RR they should be capable of giving someone a warning
>>>first, especially if they are a participant in the edit war.
>>>
>>>
>>Is "gotcha" a big problem? Let's see:
>>* You can only do it once, ever, to a single editor
>>* You can only do it when the person has reverted 3 times in a single
>>day, something we wish to discourage
>>* The punishment is only banning for 24 hours.
>>
>>Sure, it could happen. But it's probably not worth worrying about.
>>
>>
>* The punishment is only banning for 24 hours.
>: Yes, but some people, after discovering wikipedia, think a temporary
>block amounts to censorship, violating rights, constitutions stuff
>blah blah blah. I've seen it even for 1-3 hours blocking.
>
>:So,  can't edit wikipedia for a few hours? What a terrible thing!!
>but live with it and move on.
>
The problem is not with the length of the punishment, but in the
punitive attitude of some cowboy vigilantes.

Ec


from_name: Rob Church

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki/transwiki imports mostly
	working now

body:
Forwarding to this list.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>
Date: 27-Jun-2006 23:51
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki/transwiki imports mostly working now
To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>

I've patched up some old problems with Special:Import and Special:Export:

* Import updates categories etc
* Imports are logged and reviewable in Special:Log/import
* Imported pages also get a null edit in the history indicating the import and
its source
* Export is fixed up to allow fetching history for shorter pages, while still
aborting to avoid bogging down the servers on longer pages (currently set to a
cutoff of 100 edits)
* Transwiki import allows selecting the import-with-history

Wikis wishing transwiki import capability should let us know which wikis they
want to be able to import directly from (for instance, from a wikipedia ->
wiktionary) and we can enable it.

Please pass this notice on to wikis where it will be of interest.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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body:
On 6/27/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's a quotable post, then.
>
> Site operations and keep-alive stuff is our concern. "Our" refers to
> the development team and the system administration team, but I lump it
> all together for this. If something is *needed* in order to get on
> with the encyclopaedia-writing, or the dictionary-making, then do it.
> If it's unclean, let us know, and if there's an easier method we can
> implement to help, we will.
>
> Adopt common sense, of course. If it's plain something could cause
> drastic problems, hold fire and check. But don't go running around
> screaming "teh servers, teh servers!!!" as an excuse to not do stuff,
> that's stupid.

Ta. I couldn't help myself, I made [[Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance]].

Comments, expansion and legitimisation welcome.

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

body:
On 6/27/06, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
> My own observation with regard to Wikipedia is that when I find
> myself getting angry, I usually discover that I have been trying to
> exert _control_ over something. When I am satisfied with exerting
> _influence_, I usually am much happier.

Oh, well put. Personally I'm always puzzled when I see two people edit
warring. It's like each of them is thinking "wow, no matter what he
does, I can always revert! I can't lose!"

Steve


from_name: SJ

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikimania discussions

body:
The Wikimania meetup from August 4-6th (http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org)
will draw people from all of the Wikimedia projects. It's a chance to meet your
fellow contributors and discuss issues affecting the projects:

* Fair use: should we eradicate fair use, or encourage the fair use of
copyrighted images?

* Voting: impractical and harmful, or a necessity for some discussions?

* Verifiablity: requiring sources for all new information, or
supporting the contribution of first hand information?

* Dealing with trolls: do we ban pov pushers, or encourage their voices
to be heard?

* Dealing with vandals: delaying edits from suspicious users, or finally
inventing the device that allows you to poke people over the internet?

* Content: death to fancruft, or expanding the scope of Wikipedia to cover all
human knowledge?

* Arbitration: the best thing since sliced bread, or a merely adequate online
alternative to a dunk tank?

Register today at wm06reg.wikimedia.org -- only $70 until July 9th for 3 days
of in-depth community discussion, presentations, autographs from and to Jimbo,
and fun.

--SJ

PS - you can start discussions or add to them on the conference wiki:
http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discussions


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-06-28

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test Language converter: output gets cut off unexpectedly (bug 5757)... FAILED!
Running test HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!

Passed 394 of 407 tests (96.81%) FAILED!


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 10:13:07PM -0400, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:13:15PM -0400, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > >                          searching for multiple words gives the
> > >                          union
> > > not the intersection,
> >
> > I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm going off on a rant here...
> > (;-)
> > but if the default for multi word searches *is* OR instead of the
> > generally expected AND, someone please confirm that for me so I can
> > go
> > file a bug.
>
> It looks like I was wrong there, my apologies.

Based on the description I should have been sensible enough to go
produce myself before shooting my mouth off, it sounds like it's the
AND, but applied to *entire articles*, not just article titles, which
is a) perfectly sensible, and b) could be interpreted to look like
something else, if you weren't thinking clearly.

Which I'm not; no A/C in the house, nor an exhaust fan.  Florida.
June.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

     A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
     Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

     A: Top-posting.
     Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Jacky PB

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia: hands waiving is not proof

body:
Hello everybody,

After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).

As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of  oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.

Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th, which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):

1.  THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.

2.  99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).

3.  Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able to write text in Moldovan.

All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.

This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?

MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.

Please, look at the facts yourself.

Yours,
[[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less.


body:
And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.

Mark

On 28/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is in vacations?).
>
> As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all sorts of  oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia. This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting mo.wikipedia.
>
> Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th, which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts, that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
>
> 1.  THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
>
> 2.  99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark (Usedr:Node_ue).
>
> 3.  Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able to write text in Moldovan.
>
> All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
>
> This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the vocation of wikipedia?
>
> MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
>
> Please, look at the facts yourself.
>
> Yours,
> [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.


from_name: Dabljuh

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unblock-en-l

body:
> Is this official? Should I update the wikien-l page to tell people
> *not* to email for unblock requests?

Why not go ahead and do the next logical step: Tell people to post
their unblock requests to [[WP:ANI]], where they will be subsequently
permbanned for "evading" their block and "disruption", and get their
user page vandalized by an admin as a follow-up.

Am I trolling? No. This is what actually happened.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Delirium

subject: [Foundation-l] Open source CRM needed for Wikimedia

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> The one thing I would add to this is that in terms of running the actual
> website, delivering the actual work to the end user, we should never run
> anything other than fully free software.
>
> Running back office operations may in some cases require a tradeoff...
> in the case in question, as I understand it so far, SugarCRM is free
> software except that the module for security is proprietary.  I have not
> done any analysis yet to fully understand the status, so I am just
> speaking here of the hypothetical case.
>

I agree with that.

IMO, the backoffice software being open source is mostly a "would be
nice" thing---if we end up using proprietary software in some
behind-the-scenes business operation, that's non-ideal but doesn't
really impact our charitable mission.

Software somewhere in the delivery path is more important.  Using all
free software means that anyone can: 1) duplicate our setup gratis (as
far as software goes); and 2) modify our setup for their own specific needs.

This is not absolutely *necessary* for our charitable mission to achieve
some success, but maximizing the possible ways others can reuse our
content with minimum hassle would be nice, and that's best done by
ourselves using software that others can freely use and modify.

-Mark


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: fireislandparadise

body:
The purpose of 3RR is not to give admins the sense of power by maximizing
their opportunities to block but to prevent or stop edit wars. We should be
trying to reduce the number of blocks, not increase them. If a mandatory
warning results in ending edit wars without a block why not do it?

On 6/28/06, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
> Pedro Sanchez wrote:
>
> >On 6/25/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On 6/24/06, fireislandparadise <fireislandparadise at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>My problem is that not requiring a warning encourages gaming by making
> it
> >>>easier for a more savvy edit warrior to take advantage of another
> editor and
> >>>play "gotcha". This is particularly the case as most editors aren't
> aware of
> >>>the new "unrelated reverts" interpretation. If someone is savvy enough
> to
> >>>complain on ANI/3RR they should be capable of giving someone a warning
> >>>first, especially if they are a participant in the edit war.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Is "gotcha" a big problem? Let's see:
> >>* You can only do it once, ever, to a single editor
> >>* You can only do it when the person has reverted 3 times in a single
> >>day, something we wish to discourage
> >>* The punishment is only banning for 24 hours.
> >>
> >>Sure, it could happen. But it's probably not worth worrying about.
> >>
> >>
> >* The punishment is only banning for 24 hours.
> >: Yes, but some people, after discovering wikipedia, think a temporary
> >block amounts to censorship, violating rights, constitutions stuff
> >blah blah blah. I've seen it even for 1-3 hours blocking.
> >
> >:So,  can't edit wikipedia for a few hours? What a terrible thing!!
> >but live with it and move on.
> >
> The problem is not with the length of the punishment, but in the
> punitive attitude of some cowboy vigilantes.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikimarkup request: -- to em-dash

body:
Steve Bennett-4 wrote:
>
> On 6/23/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2006 at 12:44:09AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote:
>> Might this, perhaps, be just a subst type thing that happens once when
>> a page is saved?
> No other wiki markup used in article space works that way.[1]
> [1] except subst:
>
Don't forget the good old pipe-trick...

HTH HAND
--
Phil
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wikimarkup-request%3A----to-em-dash-tf1829683.html#a5083019
Sent from the Wikipedia Developers forum at Nabble.com.


body:
Steve Bennett-4 wrote:
>
> On 6/28/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > No other wiki markup used in article space works that way.[1]
>> > [1] except subst:
>> >
>> Don't forget the good old pipe-trick...
> The pipe-trick doesn't cause any magic substition to happen at page-save
> time?
>
Yes, it does...sorry if my phrasing might have misled.

[[namespace:title (disambig)|]] will be transformed to [[namespace:title
(disambig)|title]] at page-save time.

There are some strange edge-cases however:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Phil_Boswell/Sandbox/Sandbox_%28with_brackets%29

I don't know when it happened, but the "Show Changes" button will now show
this happening...there was a time early on when it didn't (it also now shows
{{subst:...}} working also).

HTH HAND
--
Phil
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wikimarkup-request%3A----to-em-dash-tf1829683.html#a5083202
Sent from the Wikipedia Developers forum at Nabble.com.


from_name: Berto

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
----- ???????? ????????? -----
??: "Matt Brown" <morven at gmail.com>
????: <wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org>
??????????: 28 ???? 2006 ?. 4:41
????: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

> On 6/27/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sorry, but that's not going to happen. The lawyers (baffingly) seem to
> > be happy with the current situation where total amatuers try to
> > untangle international copyright all by their lonesome. Go figure.
>
> Unfortunately, I believe, trying to set a policy could be interpreted
> as the Wikimedia Foundation taking responsibility for it too, rather
> than leaving the responsibility for copyright infringement on the
> uploading users, as it should be.

It's okay 4 me. Let's give the cops the guy's IP and that's it... I'll
propose to pms to publish a guide telling people in BIG black capitals that
whatever they do, they do it at their own personal risk. And that they
should better get themselves a lawyer before uploading pics :) The rest will
simply be a translation of the @ en.wiki policy. Since it's the bigger
edition, it's also got to have the huger amount of pics. And if they
survived with their policy so far, it means that we can survive, too.

B?rto


from_name: mboverload

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia, again

body:
Sounds like an utter mess.  Thanks so much for taking the time to explain it
to me, even if I'm still not sure why it's such a big issue =O

On 6/27/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Probably not. Dpotop's original message assumed that everyone was
> already familiar with the situation.
>
> I will give a brief summary, trying to be unbiased -- i.e., I will
> include the points of view of some of my opponents.
>
> Some background --
>
> According to some people, Moldovan is a synonym for Romanian.
> According to some people, the Cyrillic alphabet was imposed on the
> Moldovan ASSR by Stalin. According to others, the Cyrillic alphabet
> was in continuous use in the MASSR thruought its history with an
> exception of 15 years in the interwar period.
>
> There are additional (and mostly irrelvant) arguments about whether or
> not Moldovan was created as a separate language from Romanian by
> Stalin, or whether it developed naturally.
>
> That aside, the main issue here seems to be use of the Cyrillic script.
>
> According to some people, nobody uses the Cyrillic script to write
> this language anymore. According to other people, all people who use
> the script are forced to against their will. According to yet others,
> there are people who use the script by choice.
>
> According to all parties involved, "Moldovan" using the Cyrillic
> script is one of 3 official languages of Transnistria. What is
> disputed, however, is the status of Transnistria. Please see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria for details.
>
> Some people have gone so far as to say a Wikipedia using Cyrillic
> script is an insult "to all Romanians who died" at the hands of Stalin
> for the Latin alphabet, although that is a bit of a stretch.
>
> Another contentious issue is the quality of the Wikipedia. There have
> been allegations of poor grammar, misspellings, etc., but the people
> who claim they exist don't bother to point them out or fix them.
>
> You may judge the quality of the articles yourself, see
> http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Randompage
>
> There are other issues, for example the villification of yours truly
> by the other side as "an evil stalinistic KGB Jewish-American Russian
> agent who does not know Romanian". Perhaps not in the same sentence,
> but I have been called all of the above at some point or another in
> some language.
>
> Ironically, the "does not know Romanian" part is usually accused in
> Romanian, and I understand it. (To be fair, Danutz would beg to differ
> -- he claims to have "figured out" how I supposedly use a machine
> translator to read and write)
>
> Mark
>
> On 27/06/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Am I the only one here that is completely an utterly confused?
> >
> > mboverload_confused
> >
> > On 6/27/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Now, here's some proof of deception.
> > >
> > > Jacky/Dpotop claims here that the reasoning behind the proposal to
> > > close the Moldovan Wikipedia is that there are no native contributors
> > > (which is no longer true exactly).
> > >
> > > As this message from an ally of his, Dapiks/Constanteanu shows, this
> > > is not the case; rather it is politically motivated:
> > >
> > > "Buna,
> > >
> > > A inceput un vot pentru stergerea "Wikipediei Moldovenesti", o creatie
> > > a unui Evreu-American, cu origini suspecte in Basarabia si care nu
> > > vorbeste limba wikipediei la care pretinde a fi sysop. Il cheama Node
> > > ue si pentru a crea impresia ca lumea doreste aceasta wikipedie, a
> > > apelat la toti utilizatorii rusi care au venit sa voteze de partea lui
> > > desi nu cunosc bine subiectul si li s-a spus ca voteaza pentru
> > > supravietuirea alfabetului chirilic. Asa a ajuns ca votul sa fie 31
> > > pentru stergerea Mo wiki, si 42 impotriva stergerii - deci in alte
> > > cuvinte pentru pastrarea wikipediei in limba "moldoveneasca". Vino si
> > > voteaza aici[1] , ca sa sergem acesta creatura cu miros bolshevic,
> > > care insulta toti romanii de pe ambele maluri ale Prutului. Node ue
> > > le-a spus rusilor sa traduca mesajul lui in limba rusa si sa-l
> > > transmita mai departe. Trimite si tu mesajul acesta la toti
> > > utilizatorii romani-unionisti sau romani-moldoveni unionisti pe care-i
> > > cunosti pe en.wiki sau ro.wiki. Dapiks 23:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"
> > >
> > > Hopefully some of you can guess what this means, but I will give you a
> > > summary of what he said.
> > >
> > > He says that a vote has begun for the deletion of the "Moldovan
> > > Wikipedia" (in quotes), notes that it is the "creation of a
> > > Jewish-American with possible origins in Bessarabia" (Bessarabia is a
> > > historical term here used in a derogatory context to refer to the
> > > modern-day Republic of Moldova). He goes on to say that the
> > > Jewish-American's name is "Node ue", and that this person has "called
> > > all Russian users to vote on his side even though they do not know the
> > > subject well". He then notes the current number of votes in a
> > > belittling manner. He goes on to urge people to come and vote to
> > > delete "this ugly Bolshevik creation which insults all Romanians on
> > > both sides of the Pruth".
> > >
> > > The particularly political part is at the end when he says "Send this
> > > message also to all Romanian or Romano-Moldovan unionist users which
> > > you know on en.wiki or mo.wiki."
> > >
> > > An urge to spread a message to only people of a certain political
> > > background seems unacceptable. Yes, I did post at the village pump of
> > > the Russian Wikipedia and request a message to be translated into
> > > Russian (according to some Romanians, my message was anti-Romanian and
> > > deceptive, however when Dpotop posted a counter-argument, most
> > > Russians continued to maintain previous opinions). However, I
> > > encouraged EVERYONE to vote, which ultimately included one Russian
> > > user who voted for the closing of mo.wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 24/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello everybody,
> > > >
> > > > Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but
> not
> > > completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]],
> is
> > > back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I
> cite from
> > > [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
> > > >
> > > > <i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time
> you
> > > write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
> > > >
> > > > No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then
> tried
> > > to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current
> > > version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by
> > > Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [
> > >
> http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=11594
> ],
> > > which shows the true result of the vote according to the original
> rules set
> > > by Node_ue.
> > > >
> > > > After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to
> take
> > > position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals
> for
> > > closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here
> > > [[:ru:?????????:?????/???????#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie
> > > concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the
> absence
> > > of Moldovan editors).
> > > >
> > > > In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wikiand
> > > pretends they are in a different language.
> > > >
> > > > It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia
> (all
> > > wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language"
> > > different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at
> [[:en:Category:User
> > > mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]],
> > > [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
> > > >
> > > > Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you
> this
> > > guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan
> can
> > > tell you the same  (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles
> from
> > > ro.wiki).
> > > >
> > > > While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will
> > > continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms
> from
> > > Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and
> stupid
> > > trolls.
> > > >
> > > > It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its
> > > re-opening and assumes admin rights.
> > > >
> > > > This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals
> for
> > > closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
> > > >
> > > > Yours sincerely,
> > > > [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > >  Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
QUESTION:  I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native"
speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?

mboverload

On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
>
> Mark
>
> On 28/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
> investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE
> FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is
> in vacations?).
> >
> > As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
> can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all
> sorts of  oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few
> Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia.
> This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians
> that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting
> mo.wikipedia.
> >
> > Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
> which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts,
> that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
> >
> > 1.  THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
> >
> > 2.  99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
> ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark
> (Usedr:Node_ue).
> >
> > 3.  Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
> to write text in Moldovan.
> >
> > All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
> some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around
> interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
> >
> > This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
> more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the
> vocation of wikipedia?
> >
> > MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
> and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But
> he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
> >
> > Please, look at the facts yourself.
> >
> > Yours,
> > [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
> countries) for 2?/min or less.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] No big deal?

body:
I have 2x-4x as many edits as everyone currently on the RFA, and I've been
here a year longer.  How am I not an admin? =(

mboverload

On 6/15/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:14:49 +0200, "Steve Bennett"
> <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >There are a number of "RfA regulars". They, IMHO, tend to be the most
> >demanding, tend to throw their weight around the most, and are the
> >most resistant to any idea of reducing the discretion given to voters
> >in RfA.
>
> You may well be right.  I only vote for (or against) editors I know or
> whose history I have reviewed to the point where my (fairly low)
> criteria are satisfied.  I cleave to the "no big deal" rule; as long
> as they are productive and not edit warriors, give them the mop. Worst
> case, they do Bad Things and we take it away again.  Best case: the
> backlog for admin actions gets shortened.
>
> I think that my real criteria are that someone is prepared to be
> accountable for their actions, and will acknowledge a mistake with
> good grace; that demands a certain volume of edits to prove.  But not
> that many.  Again: no big deal.
>
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Steve Bennett-4 wrote:
>
> Fascinating, I had no idea it worked like that. That "with brackets"
> case is really freaky.
>
> For spectators: if you type [[|foo]], for some reason the software
> replaces it with [[foo (with brackets)|foo]]. I would love to hear the
> reason for that!
>
For the avoidance of confusion, this only happens if the link is in an
article whose title ends with "...(in brackets)".

In other words, if you are editing an article whose title ends with a
parenthesised word or phrase, any links which begin with a pipe character
will be expanded to include that word or phrase, together with parentheses,
in the **title** part of the link.

Freaky indeed, and it took a couple of tries before I believed what I was
seeing.

HTH HAND
--
Phil
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wikimarkup-request%3A----to-em-dash-tf1829683.html#a5083775
Sent from the Wikipedia Developers forum at Nabble.com.


subject: [WikiEN-l] No big deal?

body:
Heh, I was mostly joking, but no, no one has ever nominated me, I just came
up with those figures while I was discussing RFA requirements with some
friends on IRC.  I was looking through them and I'm like "Wow, I could
totally run for admin!" =D Eh, I'm not going to brag about being a great
candidate for admin on the mailing list, seems a bit tacky.

On 6/28/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/28/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have 2x-4x as many edits as everyone currently on the RFA, and I've
> been
> > here a year longer.  How am I not an admin? =(
>
> Has anyone nominated you? Do you meet all the requirements? Would you
> be a good one?
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Answer: NO!

The only registered user of Moldovan on the whole wikipedia is User:Node_ue (in en, mo, ro, etc.). And he's mo-2.

Dpotop

mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote: QUESTION:  I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native"
speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?

mboverload

On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson  wrote:
>
> And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
>
> Mark
>
> On 28/06/06, Jacky PB  wrote:
> >
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
> investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE
> FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is
> in vacations?).
> >
> > As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
> can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all
> sorts of  oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few
> Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia.
> This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians
> that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting
> mo.wikipedia.
> >
> > Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
> which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts,
> that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
> >
> > 1.  THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
> >
> > 2.  99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
> ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark
> (Usedr:Node_ue).
> >
> > 3.  Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
> to write text in Moldovan.
> >
> > All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
> some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around
> interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
> >
> > This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
> more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the
> vocation of wikipedia?
> >
> > MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
> and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But
> he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
> >
> > Please, look at the facts yourself.
> >
> > Yours,
> > [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
> countries) for 2???/min or less.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanm??? yo paske nou posede pw???p bato.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.


subject: [WikiEN-l] No big deal?

body:
Hehe =D  I'm considering it.

mboverload

On 6/28/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/28/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Heh, I was mostly joking, but no, no one has ever nominated me, I just
> came
> > up with those figures while I was discussing RFA requirements with some
> > friends on IRC.  I was looking through them and I'm like "Wow, I could
> > totally run for admin!" =D Eh, I'm not going to brag about being a great
> > candidate for admin on the mailing list, seems a bit tacky.
>
> You're unlikely to become an admin without going through the RfA process.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Renner Peter

subject: [Wikitech-l] unsubsribe

body:
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: brion at pobox.com [mailto:brion at pobox.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Juni 2006 09:16
An: wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
Betreff: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-06-28

An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test Language converter: output gets cut off unexpectedly (bug 5757)... FAILED!
Running test HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!

Passed 394 of 407 tests (96.81%) FAILED!
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki/transwiki imports mostly working now

body:
On 6/28/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> I've patched up some old problems with Special:Import and Special:Export:

How does this work? Can only admins do it? I would mostly be
interested in moving images from the various Wikipedias to Commons.

Steve


from_name: Phoebe Ayers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikimania discussions

body:
On 6/28/06, Mark Gallagher <m.g.gallagher at student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>
> G'day SJ,
>
> > Register today at wm06reg.wikimedia.org -- only $70 until July 9th for 3 days
> > of in-depth community discussion, presentations, autographs from and to Jimbo,
> > and fun.
>
> $70 plus God-knows-how-much for accomodation, travel, booze ... Jimbo
> will have to do without my autograph this time 'round.

Travel is pricey, it's true. We have a deal for university dorm
housing for $40/night, which is about as cheap as it gets in a US
urban area. Booze may or may not be expensive, depending on your
tastes :) But we're charging $70 for the 3 days of community
discussion, plus presentations from all these people:
http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Program
and all these people:
http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:Index

I would encourage you to try and find a cheaper conference with as
much content.
best,
phoebe


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikimania discussions

body:
On 6/28/06, SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> The Wikimania meetup from August 4-6th (http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org)
> will draw people from all of the Wikimedia projects. It's a chance to meet your
> fellow contributors and discuss issues affecting the projects:

Since I can't make it, I'll save you some time on the discussion by
giving you the answers in advance.

> * Fair use: should we eradicate fair use, or encourage the fair use of
> copyrighted images?

Encourage.

> * Voting: impractical and harmful, or a necessity for some discussions?

Harmful.

> * Verifiablity: requiring sources for all new information, or
> supporting the contribution of first hand information?

Allow, but discourage, first-hand information labelled as such.

> * Dealing with trolls: do we ban pov pushers, or encourage their voices
> to be heard?

Troll != POV pusher, allow POV pushers while their presence is a net benefit

> * Dealing with vandals: delaying edits from suspicious users, or finally
> inventing the device that allows you to poke people over the internet?

Delaying.

> * Content: death to fancruft, or expanding the scope of Wikipedia to cover all
> human knowledge?

Somewhere in the middle.

> * Arbitration: the best thing since sliced bread, or a merely adequate online
> alternative to a dunk tank?

Neither.

> Register today at wm06reg.wikimedia.org -- only $70 until July 9th for 3 days
> of in-depth community discussion, presentations, autographs from and to Jimbo,
> and fun.

That's cheap air travel!

Steve


from_name: Ryan Delaney

subject: [WikiEN-l] suck it wiki

body:
On 6/28/06, Nolan mccollum <nolanmccollumhotmail.com at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> thats right i said suck it wiki your full of crap.
>

Uh oh. List admins went to sleep?

Ryan


from_name: Lord Voldemort

subject: [WikiEN-l] suck it wiki

body:
On 6/28/06, Ryan Delaney <ryan.delaney at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/28/06, Nolan mccollum <nolanmccollumhotmail.com at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > thats right i said suck it wiki your full of crap.
> >
>
> Uh oh. List admins went to sleep?

Maybe they just wanted to let the rest of us get just a glimpse of
some of the joy they deal with. ;-)  --LV


subject: [WikiEN-l] suck it wiki

body:
On 6/28/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nolan mccollum wrote:
> <snip abuse>
>
> 68.63.46.219 is a Comcast IP in Mobile, Alabama; you may review their
> talk page <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:68.63.46.219> and
> contributions
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/68.63.46.219> for
> yourself.
>

Whew! For a second there I thought I was going to have to take this
personally and defend the honor of the Wiki on the mailing list. Now that I
know this guy is a vandal I can rest assured that no one will take him
seriously. Thanks ;-)

Ryan


subject: [WikiEN-l] What is "spam?"

body:
Pedro Sanchez wrote:

>On 6/22/06, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>From: "Alphax (Wikipedia email)" <alphasigmax at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>Nathan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I remember having an imposter with a weird unicode version of the
>>>>first
>>>>"N" in my username. In fact, it's my only imposter.
>>>>
>>>>I think such usernames should be blocked too.
>>>>
>>>I think *your* username is innappropriate since you're spamming
>>>your URL
>>>in it.
>>>
>>>
>>Yeesh. Give him a break.
>>
>>It's unobtrusive. It's a username, so it never appears in the main
>>namespace. It's not a link, so it won't affect his site's pagerank.
>>
>>And if you look at that site, _it's just a personal website,_ no
>>different in kind from a Wikipedia user page.
>>
>>On the spectrum from where co-opting Wikipedia for commercial gain is
>>a ten and obnoxious self-promotion is a one, this is a zero. It's
>>about as objectionable as using a username that happens to resemble
>>one's email address.
>>
>Yes cut him ome slack. However " _it's just a personal website,_ no
>different in kind from a Wikipedia user page." is precisely the
>mindset that has led to such tiemwasting poinltess arguments in the
>past months. No. your userpage is not your personal webpage. You
>cannot write whatever you want, and anyone can touch it, you cannot
>cry foul if someone else edits it. It's not for furthering points of
>view, political agendas, etc.
>
>Wikipedia's userpages are to organize your wikiwork. Period.
>
There are a few people around with the kind of anal mindset that would
believe that.  User pages are primarily for a person to tell us about
himself.  If it seems a little spammish at times, there's absolutely
nothing wrong with that.  The way that a person manages his user page,
and the kind of information that he puts there himself says more about
that person's credibility than what others want to impose there.

Yes, anyone can edit these pages, but those who believe that politeness
and Wikilove are important generally don't except to make minor changes
like fixing broken links.  So, please, rather than meddling with other
people's user pages, try minding your own business.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] suck it wiki

body:
On 6/28/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/28/06, Lord Voldemort <lordbishopvoldemort at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe they just wanted to let the rest of us get just a glimpse of
> > some of the joy they deal with. ;-)  --LV
>
> No, in that case we would have spammed you with 500 advertisements for
> penis enlargement products :)

Well then how do you know I wouldn't want them?  Maybe someone's magic
wand has lost a little of it's Phoenix feather power.  A friend...
it's a friend...


from_name: MHart

body:
vtiger looks very good - it's built on top of SugarCRM and adds security and
reporting as well as many other features.

- MHart

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff V. Merkey" <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com>
>
> We are currently using vtiger for our open source CRM for Solera
> Networks and it's quite excellent.
>
> http://www.vtiger.org


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 6/28/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>> I've patched up some old problems with Special:Import and Special:Export:
>
> How does this work? Can only admins do it?

It's limited to admins, yes. If desired we could make it a separate group,
assignable separately from sysophood.

A set of source wikis is defined (currently in the site configuration, so not
settable by sysops directly) from which pages can be nicked.

There's also the ability to upload XML files saved manually from Special:Export
on another wiki; we have this disabled normally (since you can fake past edits
to anyone else's name), but sometimes enable it for particular wikis that are
migrating from a test location offsite.

> I would mostly be
> interested in moving images from the various Wikipedias to Commons.

Images aren't supported yet, sorry. :(

But that could be added; I've got some related support in the OAI thingy which
could be adapted.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Request for cooperation from the tech people

body:
On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 03:25:15PM +0100, Rob Church wrote:
> Brion has a development blog at http://leuksman.com somewhere with
> periodic updates; it's tracking his work on dbzip2 right now. I don't
> know of others, although anyone who asks me what I'm coding while on
> IRC usually gets some sort of answer.

Sure, but the odds that will continue are probably inversely
proportional to how many times a day it happens, right?  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

     A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
     Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

     A: Top-posting.
     Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?


from_name: Philip Welch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unblock-en-l

body:
On Jun 27, 2006, at 5:02 PM, Dabljuh wrote:

>> Is this official? Should I update the wikien-l page to tell people
>> *not* to email for unblock requests?
>
> Why not go ahead and do the next logical step: Tell people to post
> their unblock requests to [[WP:ANI]], where they will be subsequently
> permbanned for "evading" their block and "disruption", and get their
> user page vandalized by an admin as a follow-up.
>
> Am I trolling? No. This is what actually happened.

If you're blocked, you're not allowed to edit the wiki. I don't see
how this is a difficult concept.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
On 6/28/06, fireislandparadise <fireislandparadise at gmail.com> wrote:
> The purpose of 3RR is not to give admins the sense of power by maximizing
> their opportunities to block but to prevent or stop edit wars. We should be
> trying to reduce the number of blocks, not increase them. If a mandatory
> warning results in ending edit wars without a block why not do it?

A non-mandatory (but strongly encouraged) warning has that effect. A
mandatory warning would create situations where a user who has edit
warred can't be blocked because no warning was given.

Steve


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unblock-en-l

body:
On Jun 28, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:

>>> Why not go ahead and do the next logical step: Tell people to post
>>> their unblock requests to [[WP:ANI]], where they will be
>>> subsequently
>>> permbanned for "evading" their block and "disruption", and get their
>>> user page vandalized by an admin as a follow-up.
>
>> If you're blocked, you're not allowed to edit the wiki. I don't see
>> how this is a difficult concept.
>
> Well, you're allowed to edit your talk page (at least, at first). Is
> the AN/I page a grey area?

No. AN/I isn't your talk page.

Blocking, on a purely technical level, prevents an IP, username, or
IP associated with a blocked username, from editing any page other
than that username or IP's own talk page. To even edit AN/I, one
would have to circumvent the block on a technical level, which in
itself is prohibited. If we rewrote blocking so that blocked users
could still edit AN/I, fine. But if you're blocked, you're not
allowed to circumvent the block, which is a necessary precondition of
posting on AN/I in the first place.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


from_name: Brianna Laugher

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
> >   So - can I or can't I have this particular picture of a Beatles single
> sleeve, considering that it is ok to put up on en.wiki?
> IMHO, whenever in doubt the answer should be "load it on commons".

I disagree!!! How about finding out what the image use policies are of
these wikis?

En.wp allows fair use, clearly. So was this image uploaded under the
terms of fair use? (Ieg. does it have some kind of red copyright
symbol on the page and a big statement about fair use?) Then
definitely DON'T upload it to Commons.

As for using it in scn.wp, that depends entirely on scn.wp's image use
policy. Do they have one? If not, now would be a good time to develop
one.

For example, do they allow fair use images? Under what terms and requirements?

Please do not upload fair use items to the Commons. (Yeah, I'm an
admin there...)

> I suppose the real problem is that we should have a global copyright policy
> stated and translated for it to be published on all servers as a part of the
> distributed UI on Betawiki "prior" to opening any new edition. This really
> is a job for lawyers, it cannot be done by taking guesses  since it impacts
> both on content management and on the risk of people being sued for
> copyright infringement. The most important thing to make clear is: who is
> subject to whose laws, and by what criteria one can objectively determine
> it. Once we get this clear, the rest is a pure matter of logics.

Sorry, but that's not going to happen. The lawyers (baffingly) seem to
be happy with the current situation where total amatuers try to
untangle international copyright all by their lonesome. Go figure.

Brianna

{en.wp, commons}:User:pfctdayelise


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

body:
On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 04:19:02PM +0100, Rob Church wrote:
> On 28/06/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 03:25:15PM +0100, Rob Church wrote:
> > > Brion has a development blog at http://leuksman.com somewhere with
> > > periodic updates; it's tracking his work on dbzip2 right now. I don't
> > > know of others, although anyone who asks me what I'm coding while on
> > > IRC usually gets some sort of answer.
> >
> > Sure, but the odds that will continue are probably inversely
> > proportional to how many times a day it happens, right?  :-)
>
> Well, I don't intend to start a blog.

Fear not, Rob; I wasn't suggesting you come over to the Dark Side.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

     A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
     Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

     A: Top-posting.
     Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?


from_name: Walter Vermeir

body:
Hi,

About some 6 months ago I started with an attempt to bring news with a
newsletter "Wikizine". I try to bring different types of news like
"Foundation", "Community", "Media" but the section"Technical news" is
the most important one.

This list, the server admin log and the diffs of the release notes are
the main sources of information. It is not always easy to understand
what some rather short technical-cryptic description means but in
general most changes can be discovered that way.

But that are all reports about things who are already changed. It
would be nice to know in advance about changes to come and the
advancement of projects.

Request; can the technical staff make and maintain a page where
important planed changes are announced? Changes who have an impact for
the user experiences for visitors, users or sysops. And for some large
projects, like the universal login, every x weeks an update about how
it is going with it.

Sending information directly to the internal news media is also good
of course, especially when it is urgent or really important so that is
not overlooked. But just putting it on a pages is more convenient I
suppose.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Internal_news_media

This way I believe Wikizine, and others like the Signpost, can inform
the community better.

Greetings,
Walter

The guy from Wikizine
http://www.wikizine.org

To subscribe;
mailto:request at wikizine.org?subject=subscribe


from_name: Kim Bruning

body:
On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 01:23:30AM +1000, Angela wrote:
> I'm not buying into the arguments Brad and his friends are putting
> forward for Wikimedia to turn away from it's reliance on open source
> software. Especially when that decision is being taken by some unknown
> group of people with no community or Board consultation about possible
> alternatives.

The critical element of open source for wikimedia is the avoidance of
vendor lock-in.

Software used by wikimedia SHOULD be open source, but though
it MAY in some instances be proprietary, it MUST avoid vendor lock-in.
[1]

That way, even if we can't publish or share _some_ parts of our
infrastructure right this very minute, we at least retain the ability
and option to do so in future. [2]

read you soon,
	Kim Bruning

[1]   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
      NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and
      "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in
      RFC 2119.

[2]   Avoidance of vendor lock-in is important and advantageous for many
      business reasons as well. To keep things concise, I'm sticking to just
      wikimedias own key cultural objective.

--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key
FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
On 28/06/06, Berto <albertoserra at ukr.net> wrote:
> > Unfortunately, I believe, trying to set a policy could be interpreted
> > as the Wikimedia Foundation taking responsibility for it too, rather
> > than leaving the responsibility for copyright infringement on the
> > uploading users, as it should be.
>
> It's okay 4 me. Let's give the cops the guy's IP and that's it... I'll
> propose to pms to publish a guide telling people in BIG black capitals that
> whatever they do, they do it at their own personal risk. And that they
> should better get themselves a lawyer before uploading pics :) The rest will
> simply be a translation of the @ en.wiki policy. Since it's the bigger
> edition, it's also got to have the huger amount of pics. And if they
> survived with their policy so far, it means that we can survive, too.

I would strongly encourage /not/ doing that... in fact I would
strongly encourage going the other way and disallowing fair use and if
possible, gaining community support to turn off local uploads (only
use Commons images). Quite a  few projects have done this, the most
recent being Spanish Wikipedia. This is a trend I like. Are we here to
provide 100% free content or what? If so, what are we doing with these
stupid unnecessary crutches and disclaimers like "fair use"? Fair use
is not at all necessary for a Wikipedia to be decent.

Also, having a more restrictive policy makes it far easier to police.
You might not be aware, but en.wp has a huge problem at the moment
with trying to sort through literally thousands of images that have
been uploaded with wrong or incomplete information. Save your admins
the headache and just disallow them from the start!

I also find the notion of passing all responsibility onto the uploader
pretty bogus. If we want to say our content is FREE, not just pretty
free, or mostly free, or /probably/ free, then we as a community have
to be vigilant about educating users and verifying image sources and
licenses. What is a Wikipedia riddled with copyvios worth? To me, not
very much.

Brianna


from_name: Delirium

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Offline submissions?how to address the limited range
 of participa

body:
Theresa Knott wrote:

>On 6/26/06, abu hamza <abuhamza1970 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>If you go to the muslim guild on wikipedia
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Islam:The_Muslim_Guild
>>and you look at all the entrents, everyone is currently under threat of an
>>indefinate ban or idefinately banned. I think the idea of having a greater
>>participation is lip service.
>>
>>
>
>That would be terrible if it were true. However a quick glance down
>this list of 27 active members makes me suspect that you are over
>exaggerating here. Do you have any evidence to back such a claim up?
>
>
>
It's also worth noting that members of "The Muslim Guild" are only a
self-selecting subset of Muslim Wikipedians.  I'd imagine if we had a
self-selecting Christian group dedicated to "making sure the Christian
viewpoint is represented in Wikipedia articles" (let's call them "The
Jesus Brigade"), they would be banned more often than the average
Christian Wikipedian is.

-Mark


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Require confirmed email address to upload images?

body:
Kat Walsh wrote:
>
>>snip<
> So it's two email addresses that would need to be confirmed... until
> single user login is implemented. (This is really coming, right?
> Right?) I don't see that as an unreasonable barrier. As for
> "unnecessary" -- well, the project hasn't fallen apart thus far
> without, but there are a lot of unnecessary things that are still a
> win.
>
IIRC having a confirmed email address will prove to be highly useful when
the single login approaches, as some sort of proof that the same person owns
the various accounts to which they might lay claim.

So we ought to be promoting this in any case...

HTH HAND
--
Phil
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Require-confirmed-email-address-to-upload-images--tf1863504.html#a5092198
Sent from the Wikipedia General forum at Nabble.com.


from_name: Mathias Schindler

subject:
[Wikitech-l] [slightly OT] Integration of Wikipedia data into
	Google Desktop Gadget

body:
A growing number of third party software has already included
wikipedia data somehow. It starts with trillian, there is a wikipedia
widget for MacOS X and one company with friendly relations to
Wikimedia (Answers.com) has released a tool. Not to forget Babylon.

One tool with is missing support for wikipedia data is currently
Google Desktop. Version 4 was released hours ago and the company is
trying to catch up in terms of the number of gadgets offered by
announcing a contest for creating these. Details can befound at
http://desktop.google.com/contest.html. There is also an IDE for
development at http://desktop.google.com/designer.html a documentation
for the SDK at http://desktop.google.com/developer.html.

Maybe someone is interested in this challenge.


from_name: Phil Boswell

body:
Erik Moeller-3 wrote:
>
> On 6/28/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> IIRC having a confirmed email address will prove to be highly useful when
>> the single login approaches, as some sort of proof that the same person
>> owns
>> the various accounts to which they might lay claim.
> The best proof is knowing the password :-).
>
Yes.

But to add the email you had to have known the password, and unless I'm
sorely mistaken it is possible to recover the email address for an automated
process to compare between two accounts, whereas if this were true for
passwords...

HTH HAND
--
Phil
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Require-confirmed-email-address-to-upload-images--tf1863504.html#a5092350
Sent from the Wikipedia General forum at Nabble.com.


from_name: Nolan mccollum

subject: [WikiEN-l] suck it wiki

body:
thats right i said suck it wiki your full of crap.

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Unblock-en-l

body:
On Jun 28, 2006, at 12:27 PM, Dabljuh wrote:

>> Nope.  If you're blocked, you're not allowed to edit it.  You can
>> always e-mail one of the 1000 admins (or, indeed, one of the 100,000
>> or more Wikipedia editors) and ask him or her to put something up
>> there.
>
>
> Oh Jay, you are the libram of Wikipedia's rules.
>
> I observed this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Circumcision#Sexual_effects
>
> So, we have a "reliable source", stating...

This has nothing to do with blocking policy. Piss off, Dabljuh.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


subject: [WikiEN-l] What is "spam?"

body:
What is spam
Baby don't hurt me
Or the wiki
no more

What is spam
Yeah
Oh I don't know why I am banned
I give you my spam across wiki-land
So what is right and what is wrong
gimme a sign

What is spam
Baby don't hurt me...

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

>
>* Many people won't be uploading images if it requires email registration
>
>
Please please please let it be so! After having to mark several
thousand bad uploads for deletion, and realizing it was just a
tiny percentage of the total problem, I'd agree to anything that
would stop the deluge of sh!t.

I think it's hard for people who haven't worked on image cleanup
to realize how much grunt work is created by the hundreds and
sometimes thousands of bad uploads that accumulate each and every day.

Stan


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
It depends.

If you mean people who speak the national language of Moldova and were
educated in Cyrillic, then yes, I'm pretty sure [[User:Oleg
Alexandrov]] qualifies there.

If you mean people who call their language "Moldovan" and insist that
it's a different language from Romanian, no, I don't think there is
anyone.

Mark

On 28/06/06, mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote:
> QUESTION:  I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native"
> speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
>
> mboverload
>
> On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 28/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everybody,
> > >
> > > After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
> > investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE
> > FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is
> > in vacations?).
> > >
> > > As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
> > can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all
> > sorts of  oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few
> > Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia.
> > This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians
> > that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting
> > mo.wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
> > which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts,
> > that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
> > >
> > > 1.  THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
> > >
> > > 2.  99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
> > ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark
> > (Usedr:Node_ue).
> > >
> > > 3.  Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
> > to write text in Moldovan.
> > >
> > > All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
> > some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around
> > interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
> > >
> > > This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
> > more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the
> > vocation of wikipedia?
> > >
> > > MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
> > and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But
> > he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
> > >
> > > Please, look at the facts yourself.
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > > [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
> > countries) for 2?/min or less.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.


body:
I'll have you know that Moldovan is my native language. It is the
first language I heard, and I heard no other language until the age of
3.

Please see: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22first+language+attrition%22

Mark

On 28/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Answer: NO!
>
> The only registered user of Moldovan on the whole wikipedia is User:Node_ue (in en, mo, ro, etc.). And he's mo-2.
>
> Dpotop
>
> mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote: QUESTION:  I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native"
> speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
>
> mboverload
>
> On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson  wrote:
> >
> > And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 28/06/06, Jacky PB  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everybody,
> > >
> > > After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
> > investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE
> > FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is
> > in vacations?).
> > >
> > > As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
> > can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all
> > sorts of  oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few
> > Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia.
> > This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians
> > that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting
> > mo.wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
> > which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts,
> > that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
> > >
> > > 1.  THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
> > >
> > > 2.  99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
> > ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark
> > (Usedr:Node_ue).
> > >
> > > 3.  Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
> > to write text in Moldovan.
> > >
> > > All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
> > some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around
> > interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
> > >
> > > This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
> > more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the
> > vocation of wikipedia?
> > >
> > > MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
> > and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But
> > he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
> > >
> > > Please, look at the facts yourself.
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > > [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
> > countries) for 2?/min or less.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.


body:
On 6/28/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> > No other wiki markup used in article space works that way.[1]
> > [1] except subst:
> >
> Don't forget the good old pipe-trick...

The pipe-trick doesn't cause any magic substition to happen at page-save time?

Steve


body:
Having said that, while I consider myself a native speaker, I would
not rate myself "mo-5" on the Babel rating scale (which is basically
the same as native speakers with no first language attrition), but
rather I rank myself at "mo-2".

Essentially, that means I can understand it, and I can speak it to a
certain degree (mostly about simple things), and I can read it and
write it. However, my writing and speaking skills are very
deteriorated and my grammar is very poor, and I often find myself
looking in a dictionary to find the equivalent for words such as, say,
"helpfulness".

For that reason, I don't write many articles myself at mo.wiki --
contrary to the allegations of some, I actually care about the quality
of articles there. Instead, I mostly transliterate articles from the
Romanian Wikipedia.

Mark

On 28/06/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll have you know that Moldovan is my native language. It is the
> first language I heard, and I heard no other language until the age of
> 3.
>
> Please see: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22first+language+attrition%22
>
> Mark
>
> On 28/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Answer: NO!
> >
> > The only registered user of Moldovan on the whole wikipedia is User:Node_ue (in en, mo, ro, etc.). And he's mo-2.
> >
> > Dpotop
> >
> > mboverload <mboverload at gmail.com> wrote: QUESTION:  I don't care if they're native, are there any "near native"
> > speakers of "MOLDOVAN" on en.wikipedia.org?
> >
> > mboverload
> >
> > On 6/28/06, Mark Williamson  wrote:
> > >
> > > And you're accusing me of spreading FUD? Psht.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 28/06/06, Jacky PB  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello everybody,
> > > >
> > > > After sending my point of view here, I presumed someone was going to
> > > investigate the matter, by asking questions and LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE
> > > FACTS. To my surprise, this did not happen (maybe every high-rank admin is
> > > in vacations?).
> > > >
> > > > As I noticed in my initial post of June 24th, the this lack of decision
> > > can only lead to the situation coarsing, and the various parts stacking all
> > > sorts of  oppinions. This is true for the Romanians and for the few
> > > Romanian-speaking Moldovans that support the deletion of this wikipedia.
> > > This is also true for Mark Williamson (User:Node_ue) and for the Russians
> > > that support him. There is no nativ Moldovan speaker supporting
> > > mo.wikipedia.
> > > >
> > > > Now, to come back to the facts. I suggest reading my post of June 24th,
> > > which is not, as Mark says, too high-level. It mainly notices three facts,
> > > that can easily be checked (despite all the hands-waving of Mark):
> > > >
> > > > 1.  THERE IS NO NATIVE MOLDOVAN SPEAKER HERE ON WIKIPEDIA.
> > > >
> > > > 2.  99% of the articles of mo.wikipedia have been copied from
> > > ro.wikipedia with just the script changed from Latin to Cyrillic, by Mark
> > > (Usedr:Node_ue).
> > > >
> > > > 3.  Mark assumes for himself a level mo-2, meaning that he is not able
> > > to write text in Moldovan.
> > > >
> > > > All the other users on mo.wikipedia are either against Mark (including
> > > some trolls), or create 1-line incorrect articles, or simply move around
> > > interwiki links to give the impression something happens.
> > > >
> > > > This means that there is NO COMMUNITY, and that mo.wikipedia is nothing
> > > more than a political statement without any other content. Is this the
> > > vocation of wikipedia?
> > > >
> > > > MY SUGGESTION: LOOK AT THE FACTS DIRECTLY on mo.wikipedia. Hands waiving
> > > and sending message after message with FUD is the strong point of Mark. But
> > > he cannot alter edit histories, nor user lists.
> > > >
> > > > Please, look at the facts yourself.
> > > >
> > > > Yours,
> > > > [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
> > > countries) for 2?/min or less.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> >  Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.


from_name: Mark Wagner

body:
On 6/28/06, Brad Patrick <bradp.wmf at gmail.com> wrote
> On 6/28/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> By talking about it as if there is a crisis, you make it a crisis; it
>> seems as if we are at war.. I am not convinced AT ALL.

> I would be interested to know on what data you rest your conclusions.
> GMaxwell will back up his statements about the nature of the problem with
> actual numbers (won't you Greg?)  =)

I don't know about Greg, but I certainly can:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-March/041534.html

As of last March, approximately 2000 images were uploaded to the
English Wikipedia each day.  Of those, roughly 50% had clearly
incorrect license information.  Of the images claimed as "fair use",
roughly 35% of the claims were immediately obvious as being invalid.
I haven't seen any sign of the ratios changing since then.

Based on a random sampling of 50 talk pages of users uploading images
without source information or license information, 80% of these users
have no talkpage traffic other than notices about image problems, and
maybe a welcome message.

--
Mark
[[en:User:Carnildo]]


body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

>
>I also dispute that our problem becomes bigger. I am convinced that the
>problem is like a bell-curve, as the absolute number of pictures goes
>up, the percentage of what you consider "problematic" pictures stays the
>same however the number of material that you still want to check
>increases. When you confuse this with a growing problem you easily
>forget the number of files that have been checked. Because people are
>working hard on this in a best effort way and as we are quite ready to
>remove material that is in violation of our copyright rules the problem
>is not what is depicted.
>
Try your hand at reviewing and fixing up the day's thousand uploads
in less than 24 hours, then come back and tell us if you still think
it's not a serious problem.

Stan


from_name: Simetrical

body:
On 6/28/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> I just sort of envisaged a "is this image fair use? No? [[Move it to
> Commons]]!" kind of  link appearing on images in the various
> Wikipedias. It doesn't seem like something that should be inherently
> restricted, either, since the action can be carried out manually by
> anyone...

As the feature was formerly implemented, at least, you downloaded an
XML file to your hard drive with Special:Export and then uploaded it
with Special:Import, which basically meant that the target accepted
your upload without question and you could rewrite page history.  If
this is no longer the case, then it would be worth considering easier
interwiki moves, at least.

But do we really want *interwiki* page-move vandalism?  You'd have to
go to the target to revert it, if it's restricted to autoconfirmed
like normal moves you possibly wouldn't be able to move it back until
SUL, if it's not restricted then it's even easier than normal
page-move vandalism, etc.  So restricting it to admins is a good idea,
until we get an intermediate "trusted" group of some kind.