from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Foundation-l] wikistats *!$@! (was Information flow)

body:
>> Why hasn't Wikistats been updated since May?

>Because Erik Zachte, the third party who makes them, hasn't updated his
scripts since May?

Excuse me?

In June I asked two times for new dumps, so that I could run stats once more
before the conversion to Mediawiki 1.5, knowing that I would not have time
for yet another upgrade of the scripts soon.

As soon as the dumps were available I tried to run the stats. It turned out
that the database had already been changed even before mediawiki 1.5.
Lots of archive data had been moved to another database for which no dump
was available at all!! And priorities were such it was not to be expected
soon. If someone bothered at all to announce that publicly, e.g. on
wikitech, I missed it, but it would not have changed much, expect saving me
time on finding this out myself.

Then mediawiki 1.5 upgrade occurred which brought a completely new database
scheme.
After a while Brion announced he would produce new dumps in xml format,
which would simplify things a lot. (It does)

So I waited for that. The new dumps came about mid July when I had started
to prepare for two Wikimania presentations.
A week after Wikimania I started to work on updating the scripts.

The new xml dump format makes things much simpler (and hopefully more
consistent), yet because I want to keep the script backwards compatible for
other mediawiki installations that use it, at least for a while, it was not
so simple to add code for the new dumps after all.

Let me tell you that the scripts are not exactly trivial. They contain many
thousands of line of perl code. Partly because old sql dumps became nearly
impossible to parse offline, but I got it working, within space constraints.
Partly because they do much more than simple counting, e.g. timelines
overview, category trees, wikibooks indexes, they have to process data in a
certain sequence for that, and also bother to present data somewhat
differently for each project.

So considering I could only start on this >> two weeks ago << I'm making
fair progress.

By the way, many people would like to see for more frequent dumps.
I also still do not know why dumps are not produced more often, but trust
there will be a good reason, probably performance.
There is no fixed schedule at all, one waits, people start asking for a new
dump, often get no answer, and finally it arrives, more or less once a month
these days.

Erik Zachte


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] wikistats (was Information flow)


list: wikien-l

from_name: Josh Gordon

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Jimbo makes some sense when he suggests it's better to have a known
Stormfronter than yet another sockpuppy. However, as to the ability of this
editor to make good contributions to Wikipedia: has any Stormfronter so far
made any good contributions to Wikipedia? There certainly have been enough
here to generalize.

jpgordon


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Only variable references should be returned
	by	reference on PHP 4.4.0

body:
John Ky wrote:
> My webserver was upgraded to PHP 4.4.0 today and I started getting these
> notices in the logs.  Is there anything I could do about these messages?

You can do one of the following to make these go away:
* Downgrade PHP to 4.3.11
* Upgrade PHP to 5.0.4
* Upgrade MediaWiki to 1.5
* Turn off logging of notices.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Rob

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Is it really?  This is one of the main things I'm
concerned about, and I've done a poor job of
articulating my concern. It's quite easy to make edits
which seem legitimate, accurate, and NPOV, but are
actually nothing of the sort.  Cite sources which
don't exist, or don't say what you claim they do, or
simply cite a source which turns out to be someone
making things up out of whole cloth.  I've dealt with
all of these things from editors who aren't even Nazis
and I have no doubt that the Nazis won't hesitate to
employ such methods.  For some reason, I found it
nearly impossible to find editors to help combat this
sort of stuff in an article about a Nobel Prize
winner; how many editors are willing to wade through
obscure footnotes in the life of Eustace Mullins or
William Pierce to fight a persistent POV warrior?  I
can't imagine a more stubborn and intractible POV
warrior than a person whose entire worldview revolves
around fighting the Elders of Zion.

Jimmy Wales jwales at wikia.com
But my response to this particular argument is that
*at least in this
particular case*, the odds of him doing anything which
is 'unnoticed and
uncorrected' is close to zero *in this account*.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Rob wrote:

>Your argument would be compelling were we talking
>about something like first ammendment free speech
>rights in the democratic US.  But he is not entitled
>to a "day in court" because wikipedia is not a
>democracy, it is not a social experiment, it is not a
>soapbox, a public forum, a commons, a message board,
>etc., etc. It is an encyclopedia where such a hateful
>and absurd dogma as Nazi-ism has no place.
>
Yellow card! :-) Officially WP has no position on whether Nazi
dogma is hateful or absurd - that is just another POV.

If it is going to become WP policy to pre-ban editors, then we
should be at least honest about it and put it up front on the
login creation page:

   "If you are found to be an adherent of any dogma that
    any Wikipedia administrator find hateful and/or absurd,
    your login may be subject to immediate suspension."

I suspect a lot of admins would go for this level of power
actually. :-)

Stan


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Rewards and punishments

body:
> It's a nice idea, though clearly not for the ArbCom.
>
> [[Wikipedia:Nominations for WikiMedals]], anyone?
>
> Jake

I think the Portugese wikipedia may already do something like that. It
has been suggested from time to time on en wikipedia but no one has
ever got round to setting it up.~~~~

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
If I had known we were going to be hairsplitting, I
would have dressed for the occassion.

Let me rephrase for those determined to argue about
this: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where adherents of
such a hateful and absurd dogma as Nazi-ism should
have no place.

I believe in NPOV just as much as the next admin, but
I'm not going to turn it into a religion.  NPOV
applies to article content, of course, but in my
discussions of policy and human interactions, I will
rely on what happens in the real world.  You may try
to drag NPOV to an absurd extension to say that
perhaps some Nazi somehwhere may be a good, neutral
contributor, but real life experience says that Nazis
are disruptive assholes with an agenda that is
incompatible with our goals.

Gamaliel

Haukur ?orgeirsson haukurth at hi.is:

> It is an encyclopedia where such a hateful
> and absurd dogma as Nazi-ism has no place.

Go and VfD [[Nazism]], then. However absurd it may be,
it is an
historically important dogma which needs a careful,
detailed and *neutral*
treatment in a serious encyclopedia.

Stan Shebs shebs at apple.com:

Yellow card! :-) Officially WP has no position on
whether Nazi
dogma is hateful or absurd - that is just another POV.

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html


from_name: Jake Waskett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Rewards and punishments

body:
On Tuesday 23 August 2005 12:27, geni wrote:
> > It's a nice idea, though clearly not for the ArbCom.
> >
> > [[Wikipedia:Nominations for WikiMedals]], anyone?
> >
> > Jake
>
> I think the Portugese wikipedia may already do something like that. It
> has been suggested from time to time on en wikipedia but no one has
> ever got round to setting it up.~~~~

Let's find out if this is due to apathy or lack of support. Please vote at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Nominations_for_WikiMedals


from_name: Brian

subject: [Wikitech-l] Permalink

body:
Wow that's great. I like how it links to the oldid. This makes it easier to
be sure that what you linked to is exactly what the person who clicks your
link will find, and not goatse :)

--Alterego

On 8/23/05, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
>
> I put a "permalink" link in the sidebar. Consider it a trial, please
> tell me what you think. This has often been suggested, but it was most
> recently discussed at:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#Permalink_in_the_sidebar
>
> The UI message name to translate the link is "permalink".
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War

body:
On 8/23/05, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Er - WikiProjects are supposed to be used to generate agree-upon standards to
> use in the presentation of a tightly related set of articles. This, however,
> looks like an advocacy group. I am not sure I'm comfortable with that.
>
> -- mav

Ignore it and it will go away. Anyway it is a hady way of getting a
list of pertential troublemakers.

--
geni


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Arkady Rose wrote:
> We're all devil worshippers and Jimbo sacrifices babies at
> the clambake every third Tuesday of the month, right?

mmm... clams....


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Zachary Harden wrote:
> Well, personally, this is going to fail. Not because of their lack of
> tech skills, nor from lack of users. It is lack of dough. From looking
> at what Wikimedia needs to raise and see how much they spend on just
> running the sites, I do not think Stormfront would have enough dough to
> pull it off. And most companies will probably not waste their time or
> money dealing with neo-Nazis. It's very, very un-PC for companies to
> deal with fascists.

I'm visiting Best Buy's corporate headquarters in Minnesota today and so
I can't even look at the link to see what horrible thing they said about
me, because their site is blocked by the corporate firewall.  :-)

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Rob wrote:
> The advantage to banning him now is that it prevents
> subtle skewing of articles or skewing of articles on
> obscure topics, both which may go unnoticed and
> uncorrected.

First a confession and then a response.

I visited his userpage yesterday with the intention of blocking him
myself so as to save everyone else the trouble of having to worry about
it.  But he was already blocked.  And like Theresa, I don't really find
myself with enough energy to care one way or the other whether we should
judge blatant insults and racism on another site as grounds for being
banned from Wikipedia.

But my response to this particular argument is that *at least in this
particular case*, the odds of him doing anything which is 'unnoticed and
uncorrected' is close to zero *in this account*.  But the odds of him
doing it under his next sockpuppet account is quite high.

So, in this sense, and in this sense only, it is probably better to let
him edit under this account, because in this way people can monitor it.

Now, your other point:
> It also saves a lot of stress and sweat
> for those editors who have to deal with him until he
> inevitably gets banned for something.

This is 100% valid and I agree completely.  This is why I was going to
ban him yesterday myself.

But we have to think carefully here.  Trolls work by baiting us.  We
should be very careful about taking that bait.  Wouldn't it amuse them
greatly for us to waste a huge amount of effort in blocking and fighting
them.  It's the war that they want to have, whereas for us it is just
*sigh* tedious and stupid.

What we should aim to do, then, is rob them of the fun they expect to
have.  I'm not 100% sure how to do that.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
SlimVirgin, MattCrypto: this is why I love Wikipedians so much.  I love
this kind of discussion.  Assume good faith, careful reasoning, a
discussion which doesn't involve personal attacks of any kind, a
disagreement with a positive exploration of the deeper issues.

I'm very proud.

slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:
> Matt unblocked [[User:Amalekite]] and I reblocked him, then we
> exchanged posts as follows in case others are interested:
>
> Hi Matt, I've reblocked the above. I don't normally reblock when
> another admin unblocks (in fact, I don't think I've ever done it), but
> this case is exceptional. Amalekite is [[Alex Linder]], the
> owner-operator of [[Vanguard News Network]]. He has posted a list of
> Wikipedians he believes are Jews on the [[Stormfront]] website, as
> well as details of how to edit using open proxies and sockpuppets.
> It's clear he was trying to cause major disruption, which is why
> [[User:Homeontherange]] blocked him. The issue has been discussed on
> the mailing list. [[User:SlimVirgin]] 07:22, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
>
> Hi SlimVirgin, I don't like getting into conflict, particularly with
> things like block wars and protect wars, so I'm unhappy about this.
> But in this case I think that this is simply unjust; we should block
> people indefinitely based on their actions, not based on what they say
> on other websites, and not because they're neo-Nazis. If it is, as you
> assert, clear that he's trying to disrupt Wikipedia, then it will
> surely quickly become apparent, and we can block him then, right? But
> otherwise, I think it must be innocent until proven guilty.
> [[User:Matt Crypto]] 07:32, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
>
> I take your point, Matt, but I feel you ought to have discussed this
> with the blocking admin, rather than undoing the block. I would also
> argue that for a Wikipedian to draw up a list of other editors by
> their perceived ethnicity, and to post that list on a racist website,
> is highly provocative, and I don't see how it can be detached from his
> actions on Wikipedia. He wasn't blocked for being a member of
> [[Vanguard News Network]] or [[Stormfront]], but for his actions in
> encouraging anti-Semites and racists to target Jewish editors, and for
> encouraging them to violate policy by creating sockpuppets and using
> open proxies. I don't see why we should have to wait until the
> disruption begins before blocking him. He tried to cause massive
> disruption: that he (appears to have) failed was simply down to the
> others' lack of response. [[User:SlimVirgin]] 07:41, August 23, 2005
> (UTC)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> His edits consisted of POV and personal attacks.  Why wait for him to do
> even more damage?

These are the contributions of the user in question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Amalekite

Though the person clearly has issues with you, Jay, I see nothing which I
would call a personal attack. He's certainly pushed a particular POV but
that's not grounds for an immediate permanent ban. I didn't see anyone
rushing to ban User:Rmstallman. At least User:Amalekite refrained from
editing his own entry.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
There is nothing special about nazi's that allows you to block them on
sight. In order for that to occur, some substantial policies would
need to be changed. As is, someone who is a murderer IRL is allowed to
edit, much less some member of an unpopular forum.

Jack (Sam Spade)


from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alphax wrote:

[Archive.org]

> Has the Wayback Machine archived anything new since the end of 2004?

They archive loads; the archives are only available some 6 months or so
after archival, though, so as not to be a direct "competitor" for the
same content, or something. Thus it won't appear to have "archived"
anything since about February.

HTH.

Yours,
- --
James D. Forrester
Wikimedia : [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]
E-Mail    : james at jdforrester.org
IM (MSN)  : jamesdforrester at hotmail.com
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Gfta/QwmRcSTWfp3VDayaaM=
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>>It is a list of those belonging to a "Zionist cabal". That's not a
>>statement of ethnicity.
>
> "Zionist cabal" in the sense of Zionist cabal
> described in the [[Protocols of the Elders of Zion]].
> The suggestion that people here are being labelled
> "Zionist" based on their political beliefs, rather
> than ethnicity, is, in my view, hardly credible,
> particularly given his other posts refering to
> "Jews", "kikes", "pro-Jewish bias", etc.

I'm sure you're right and you're undoubtedly more familiar with this than
I am. The exact quote is:

- - - - -
The following is an incomplete list of those suspected to be members of,
or to be the "useful idiots" of, the so-called "Elders of Wikipedia" (the
Zionist cabal which has Wikipedia in its grip). Those at the top of the
list are definite members and are the most ruthless and vicious of the
bunch; those at the bottom I'm less sure about.
- - - - -

I don't think this has the same meaning as "the following members of
Wikipedia are Jews". And I don't think the paragraph, whatever it means,
is grounds for permanent banning without warning or any formal procedure -
even if we accept that people's behaviour and comments outside of
Wikipedia should be taken into account.

For the record I think Sarah is a good administrator and I appreciate that
she has much more experience dealing with these issues than I do.

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:

>It's not easy to do this all the while knowing that the editor (in
>this case) personally believes that his Jewish Wikipedian colleagues
>are sub-human.
>
>Look at the response to Amalekite's post here
>http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22047&highlight=wikipedia
>
>"I think it's time for the white man to use a different strategy
>against these semitic jew mongrels, the days of talking are over, it
>is time to use physical force against the jewish population, and take
>our country back. They are vicious vile people, either we are going to
>survive or them."
>
>And others quote Alex Linder (who is Amalekite) as saying: "DEATH TO THE JEWS."
>
>
One thing that puzzles me is that these quotes are not firsthand from
Amalekite, whose own words aren't that much different than what we see
from the slew of nationalist POV warriors blathering all over talk
pages now. So it sounds like we're talking about pre-banning not on the
strength of a person's own statements, but on what other people are
saying about him? Brings to mind a new strategy to get rid of the
editors I don't like - create an external website describing their
evilness, and perhaps fabricating a few statements too.

In general, our mechanism for verifying real-life identities is so
poor that we should be very very reluctant to assume that any given
login corresponds to any real-life person, even if the login makes
such a claim. That's the real core of why I think we should only
consider behavior within Wikipedia - that's all we can really know
for sure about an editor.

Stan


from_name: SPUI

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
> These are some direct quotes from this guy:
>
> "A cabal of Jews and their liberal-gentile "useful idiots" are trying
> to take over Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/). They have met with
> little resistance so far. If they succeed in this takeover, they will
> have expanded their overall domination of the media that much further
> into the internet, the last refuge for free speech."
>
> "These bastards even *brag* about what they're doing by giving their
> gentile lapdogs on Wikipedia "awards"...."
>
> "I think I've been doing a decent job of fending off these pathetic
> creatures so far..."
>
> "Don't let these vampire rodents pull one more media outlet from out
> of our hands"
>
> Does it really matter to you that said these things outside wikipedia?

Yes, they've already said that it does matter to them. Or are you
calling them liars?


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Michael Turley wrote:

> On 8/23/05, Rob <gamaliel8 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If I had known we were going to be hairsplitting, I
> > would have dressed for the occassion.
> >
> > Let me rephrase for those determined to argue about
> > this: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where adherents of
> > such a hateful and absurd dogma as Nazi-ism should
> > have no place.
>
> Let's play "fill in the blank".
>
>   Let me rephrase for those determined to argue about
>   this: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where adherents of
>   such a hateful and absurd dogma as _________ should
>   have no place.
>
> What word can you put in there that is universally applicable, and
> will <u>always</u> make Wikipedia a better place?
>
> I choose to fill in the blank with "prejudice".

Well put, Michael. (For whatever my opinion is worth.)
>
> "Nazi-ism" doesn't fit.  As much as we dislike their views, it is
> likely that Nazis and neo-Nazis will give us better insight into their
> own views, and improve the articles related to those viewpoints.

Question: when groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center wants
to learn more about Neo-Nazi groups, whom do you think they ask
for information?
>
> The solution to POV edits is more people reviewing them, not
> pre-banning those we suspect will make them.
>
Some more questions: if we don't ban an admitted Neo-Nazi, what's
the worse that will happen? Would it be really any different than what
might happen if we allow just anybody to create an account on
Wikipedia -- as we do now?

Our current process has managed to cope with Scientologists, LaRouchies,
& the odd wingnut (for example, Lir & CheeseDreams). Are we afraid that
it can't handle Neo-Nazis?

What's the best that can happen? Maybe this Neo-Nazi isn't as firm
in his beliefs as he might think -- or simply has never been exposed
to other people different from him -- & his experience on Wikipedia
convinces him to abandon these beliefs.

Or maybe no one reading this has ever changed their convictions because
of an exchange of opinions with another person.

Geoff


from_name: Michael Turley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> Yellow card! :-) Officially WP has no position on whether Nazi
> dogma is hateful or absurd - that is just another POV.
>
> If it is going to become WP policy to pre-ban editors, then we
> should be at least honest about it and put it up front on the
> login creation page:
>
>    "If you are found to be an adherent of any dogma that
>     any Wikipedia administrator find hateful and/or absurd,
>     your login may be subject to immediate suspension."
>
> I suspect a lot of admins would go for this level of power
> actually. :-)
>
> Stan

I also suspect more than a few administrators would be pre-banned as
well, perhaps even more than half.

Don't think so?

Then consider that many atheists find theist beliefs to be
fundamentally absurd, and many theists feel that way about atheists.

To me, pre-banning people is a measure (albeit a small measure) of
fascism and prejudice.  I prefer we don't join them in their cesspool.
 Instead, judge them on the merits of their edits.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: slimvirgin at gmail.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> I hereby volunteer to watch his edits and revert and comment as
> appropriate if he is unbanned and returns to editing. That's one. Jack,
> you in? Anyone else?
>
Thanks for offering to do that, but I wonder if you realize how much
work would be involved. I've done it with a few of the neo-Nazis, and
it's not a question of blindly reverting. You have to rewrite their
edits, because their writing is often poor; you have to resource their
claims because the sources are often white-supremacist or personal
websites; you have to answer their questions on talk and stay civil
and respectful; you have to steer them in the direction of policy, and
explain it to them many, many times.

It's not easy to do this all the while knowing that the editor (in
this case) personally believes that his Jewish Wikipedian colleagues
are sub-human.

Look at the response to Amalekite's post here
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22047&highlight=wikipedia

"I think it's time for the white man to use a different strategy
against these semitic jew mongrels, the days of talking are over, it
is time to use physical force against the jewish population, and take
our country back. They are vicious vile people, either we are going to
survive or them."

And others quote Alex Linder (who is Amalekite) as saying: "DEATH TO THE JEWS."

Our NPOV policy states that our edits should reflect majority and
significant-minority opinion, but not the position of tiny minorities.
Our NOR policy says that we publish views that have already been
published by credible sources.

Amalekite represents a tiny minority of nutcases who believe that
certain ethnic groups and races are not fully human and do not deserve
to live. Those views are never published by credible sources.
Therefore, according to our own content policies - NPOV and NOR -
those views have no place in Wikipedia, except in articles
specifically devoted to them, in which case great caution is needed in
editing them, so that they're fair to the Nazi view but don't end up
being used as a platform by them.

As David Gerard has said: "Wikipedia is not an experiment in Internet
democracy. It's a project to write an encyclopedia." The encyclopedia
is the thing that matters, and Amalekite was out to subvert it for the
good of his own tiny-minority cause, not for the good of Wikipedia.

Sarah


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.3.14, 1.4.8, 1.5rc1 released [SECURITY]

body:
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Hash: SHA1

MediaWiki 1.5rc1 is a preview release of the new 1.5 release series.
Numerous bug fixes since last beta, plus a security fix; see change
log in the release notes for full details.

A flaw in the interaction between extensions and HTML attribute
sanitization was discovered which could allow unauthorized use
of offsite resources in style sheets, and possible exploitation
of a JavaScript injection feature on Microsoft Internet Explorer.

This version expands the returned text and properly checks it
before output.

MediaWiki 1.4.8 is a bug fix and security maintenance release. It fixes
the above bug, plus an update to skins/MonoBook.php ensures that sites
using the default MonoBook skin will display correctly in the Internet
Explorer 7 beta. (1.3 and 1.5 are not affected by this display problem.)

MediaWiki 1.3.14 is a security maintenance release.

The 1.3.x series is no longer maintained except for security fixes;
new users and those seeking bug fixes should upgrade to 1.4.8 or 1.5rc1.
Existing 1.3.x installations not willing to upgrade to the current
stable relase should apply the change manually; details are in the
release notes.

If you are actively using extensions to generate HTML attribute values,
upgrade to 1.4 or 1.5 for a full fix; 1.3.14 simply disables any attempt
to use such.

Release notes:
1.5rc1: http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=351260
1.4.8:  http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=351258
1.3.14: http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=351257

Download:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.5rc1.tar.gz?download
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.4.8.tar.gz?download
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.3.14.tar.gz?download

MD5 checksums:
mediawiki-1.5rc1.tar.gz   f8b61f0cdac4ed8a7ed7aecf02d3bc78
mediawiki-1.4.8.tar.gz    69112673e0599049dc962d4c904feb6b
mediawiki-1.3.14.tar.gz   2d65015aff380620434e381a4d60b57a

Before asking for help, try the FAQ:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_FAQ

Low-traffic release announcements mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Rob <gamaliel8 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> If I had known we were going to be hairsplitting, I
> would have dressed for the occassion.
>
> Let me rephrase for those determined to argue about
> this: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where adherents of
> such a hateful and absurd dogma as Nazi-ism should
> have no place.

Let's play "fill in the blank".

  Let me rephrase for those determined to argue about
  this: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where adherents of
  such a hateful and absurd dogma as _________ should
  have no place.

What word can you put in there that is universally applicable, and
will <u>always</u> make Wikipedia a better place?

I choose to fill in the blank with "prejudice".

"Nazi-ism" doesn't fit.  As much as we dislike their views, it is
likely that Nazis and neo-Nazis will give us better insight into their
own views, and improve the articles related to those viewpoints.

The solution to POV edits is more people reviewing them, not
pre-banning those we suspect will make them.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> I would like to say that the primary goal of wikipedia is not a to be
> a social experiment, but to build an encyclopedia. I am a strong (very
> strong) supporter of due process when it comes to good faith regular
> contributers, but in this case we all know what kind of a guy this is.
> He will not help build an encyclopedia, therefore he should be
> blocked, regardless of his crimes on the wiki itself. There are no
> absolute laws on wikipedia, and I think this is a valid use of WP:IAR

I strongly disagree. You cannot assume he will not help build an
encyclopedia because you think you "know what kind of a guy this is". He
arguably already has helped build an encyclopedia. I think all of his
edits were made in good faith so that even by your criterion he deserves
due process.

I'm also sure Rachel acted in good faith by banning him. But since it has
since become clear that there is no consensus for this ban I think it
should be lifted. I would be fine with an alternative remedy - a stern
warning / RfC / RfA / mentorship etc.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: topi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Extension for reusable Maps (images)

body:
Hello I added in the GISWiki an Extension for use (reuse) georeferenced maps
and one point in this map represents.  Perhaps the Extension is for the
Wikipedia of use.  The point coordinates are handed over in the format
geographical latitude and longitude (WGS84).  The first example shows a
Germany map with a red point for the situation of a city (similar as in many
articles of the german Wikipedia)

Link:  http://www.giswiki.de/index.php/Point-Mapping_Extension

Heinz


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:

>On 8/23/05, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
>
>>slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Look at the response to Amalekite's post here
>>>http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22047&highlight=wikipedia
>>>
>
>>One thing that puzzles me is that these quotes are not firsthand from
>>Amalekite ... So it sounds like we're talking about pre-banning not on the
>>strength of a person's own statements, but on what other people are
>>saying about him?
>>
>
>But Amalekite runs the board. He runs [[Vanguard News Network]], and
>yet he's not banning the people who want the "white man" to use
>physical force against "semitic jew mongrels." He himself ended up
>having to be moderated by Stormfront because of his anti-Semitic
>language. It comes to something when even Stormfront starts deleting
>your posts.
>
I confess to being confused by who was doing what to who on these
various boards - the evidence suggests that the same person who
had to be moderated on Stormfront was also the one counseling
people to be careful on NPOV when editing on WP, which is kind of an
odd mix of temperance and intemperance. I wonder a) if all these
people are who they appear to be, and b) how much content is real,
and how much is forged. One of the bonuses of owning a website is
that you can change its content however you like (witness recent
whitewashing on Rush Limbaugh's website, heh heh).

Again, the only content and history we can really trust is
what is under wikimedia.org.

Stan


from_name: Matt R

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
--- Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:

> He will not help build an encyclopedia

How do you know that?

-- Matt

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto
Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:
> >Look at the response to Amalekite's post here
> >http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22047&highlight=wikipedia

> One thing that puzzles me is that these quotes are not firsthand from
> Amalekite ... So it sounds like we're talking about pre-banning not on the
> strength of a person's own statements, but on what other people are
> saying about him?

But Amalekite runs the board. He runs [[Vanguard News Network]], and
yet he's not banning the people who want the "white man" to use
physical force against "semitic jew mongrels." He himself ended up
having to be moderated by Stormfront because of his anti-Semitic
language. It comes to something when even Stormfront starts deleting
your posts.

Sarah


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> Exactly where on
> the spectrum User:Amalekite dwells I do not know but he did not seem to be
> pushing the idea that certain ethnic groups do not deserve to live.

[[Alex Linder]]'s (Amalekite's) Wikipedia article states (I haven't
personally checked the link offered as a source): "According to
archived correspondence at VNN involving editorial responses to
readers' letters, Linder supports the idea that virtually all
non-whites the world over ought to be exterminated, in order to
eliminate even the possibility of racial intermixing, and their lands
repopulated with white settlers."
http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/letters132.htm

Sarah


subject: [Wikitech-l] Permalink

body:
Dori wrote:
> Good idea, but I wouldn't call it a permalink as there isn't much
> that's permanent in a wiki. What happens after a page gets
> moved/delete?

The link will continue to work after page moves. Deletion, obviously,
would break the link, just as deletion of any resource on any dynamic
web site would break a permalink to it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>From: Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is>
>
> > This guy has basically admitted
> > on another site that he will put in pro-nazi, anti-jewish POV edits.
>
>No he has not. His theory is that Wikipedia currently has an anti-nazi
>bias and that he will be acting in compliance with the NPOV policy in
>trying to balance some articles.

No, he's quite specifically stated that his theory is that Wikipedia
currently has a "pro-Jewish" bias, because it is run by a Jewish cabal.  His
edits themselves had little value, and he has encouraged people to join
Wikipedia and target certain users based on their ethnicity, and to use
anonymous proxies to edit (which he admits to using himself).  Furthermore,
he has said some pretty vile things about Wikipedians, admittedly on other
boards; but if he had posted a list of Wikipedians who he thought were
"niggers", I wonder if the consensus for banning him would be stronger.
Perhaps the word "kike" doesn't have quite the same taboo quality.  Also,
how many people here would really monitor his edits, and actually spend the
effort trying to figure out if they were really NPOV, aside from those he
has targeted?  Finally, as has been pointed out, his failure to
significantly disrupt Wikipedia was not for lack of trying.

Personally I don't think that Nazis should be banned from Wikipedia simply
for being Nazis/White supremacists.  In fact, there are at least a couple
that I know of who do edit, albeit generally unsuccessfully. As for the
rest, in my experience, the complete inability of most of them to abide by
policy, or even think rationally and present logical arguments, combined
with their typical belligerence, gets them quickly banned anyway.

That said, I think that banning *this particular* user was justified, based
on the issues listed above.

Jay.


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
I would like to say that the primary goal of wikipedia is not a to be
a social experiment, but to build an encyclopedia. I am a strong (very
strong) supporter of due process when it comes to good faith regular
contributers, but in this case we all know what kind of a guy this is.
He will not help build an encyclopedia, therefore he should be
blocked, regardless of his crimes on the wiki itself. There are no
absolute laws on wikipedia, and I think this is a valid use of WP:IAR

--gkhan


subject: [WikiEN-l] The WikiProject War

body:
On 8/23/05, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Er - WikiProjects are supposed to be used to generate agree-upon standards to
> use in the presentation of a tightly related set of articles. This, however,
> looks like an advocacy group. I am not sure I'm comfortable with that.
>
> -- mav
>

I'd say that that is a bit narrow of a definition of a wikiproject.
For instance Countering Systematic Bias, Spoken Wikipedia and
WikiProject Grammar are all well established wikiprojects that don't
follow your definition. I'm sure there are plenty more, but those are
just off the top of my head. Can't we just say that a wikiproject is a
project to improve a specialized area of wikipedia? I think that is a
much better way to define it.

--gkhan


subject: [WikiEN-l] Pseudodoxia (neo-Nazi Wikipedia)

body:
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Theresa Knott wrote:

> On 8/24/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Wow, is it that easy to set up a wiki? How much do you think they
> > spent, in time and resources? There seem to not have been ANY edits
> > however...
>
> I've logged in - and replaced my user page with a note saying i didn't
> want to be associated with the site. i then did the same on all my
> archives - a good argument for not archiving talk pages. So now I'm
> the most prolific editor of the nazi wikipedia. Woohoo!
>
> Note to anyone considering doing the same. Do not use your wikipedia
> password when you set up an account.
>
For those of us who want to follow Theresa's example, would someone be
willing to help us select an appropriate Hebrew password?

Heck, I'll settle for help with a password in Arabic or an African
language. Something along the lines of "love your neighbor".

Geoff


from_name: DF

subject: [WikiEN-l] Brittanica wants to know where the 2004 list came from

body:
An IP poster at 216.146.93.139 has posted to
[[Wikipedia talk:2004 Encyclopedia topics]] and
[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic
articles]] wanting to know where Wikipedia got the
list of topics in the 2004 Encyclopedia Brittanica.

What makes this interesting is that 216.146.93.13
resolves to corp.eb.com, i.e. within the corporate
offices of Encyclopedia Brittanica.

I don't know the answer to the poster's query (and am
presently glad I don't), but I did post a note
identifying the poster's origin on both threads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:2004_Encyclopedia_topics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles#source_of_lists.3F

I figure, given that this could be the start of a
bigger conflict, it would be useful to make the
community aware of this inquiry at a high level, so I
am posting here.

-DF


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
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Michael Snow wrote:
> JAY JG wrote:
>
>> Oh, and regarding me, "That Jayjg guy is a real partisan Jewish
>> douchebag, and he seems omnipresent."  That one really hurt.
>> Omnipresent?  Is that a euphemism for fat?
>
>
> Come now, it's an attribute of deity (depending on one's theological
> position), and you should be flattered that they recognize your natural
> superiority.
>

OFF TOPIC: Do you realise that you just quoted an ENTIRE DIGEST IN YOUR
REPLY??

- --
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from_name: Dori

subject: [Wikitech-l] Permalink

body:
On 8/23/05, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> I put a "permalink" link in the sidebar. Consider it a trial, please
> tell me what you think. This has often been suggested, but it was most
> recently discussed at:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#Permalink_in_the_sidebar
>
> The UI message name to translate the link is "permalink".

Good idea, but I wouldn't call it a permalink as there isn't much
that's permanent in a wiki. What happens after a page gets
moved/delete?


from_name: Travis Mason-Bushman

body:
Willy on Wheels seems to have discovered a new playground :)

Travis Mason-Bushman
FCYTravis @ en.Wikipedia


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Theresa Knott wrote:

>On 8/24/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Wow, is it that easy to set up a wiki? How much do you think they
>>spent, in time and resources? There seem to not have been ANY edits
>>however...
>>
>
>I've logged in - and replaced my user page with a note saying i didn't
>want to be associated with the site. i then did the same on all my
>archives - a good argument for not archiving talk pages. So now I'm
>the most prolific editor of the nazi wikipedia. Woohoo!
>
You know, this could be an awful lot of fun - all those things you wanted
to experiment with, but didn't want to risk your good name trying out
on WP. Anybody up for some bot trickery? You could add a "Sieg Heil!" at
the end of every paragraph, or use html to do that white-on-white text
that somebody mentioned.

Or if you just wanted to get your primal scream on, start trolling
and sockpuppeting and revert-warring...

On a more serious note, it would be an interesting hacker project to
maintain an ongoing diff-listing showing how they're diverging whatever
versions of the pages they're importing. Sort of a topic-by-topic
summary of how the neo-Nazi ideology differs from the real world.

Stan


subject: [WikiEN-l] An admin misused his privilages to block me...

body:
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Hash: RIPEMD160

MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> I've seen a lot of vandalism coming from schools and universities, but
> I've yet to see vandalism from the uni I attend.
>

I've seen plenty of it, mainly because there is only 1 IP for the entire
Uni (and yes, I've been caught in blocks before).

Unfortunately, more and more organisations and ISPs are switching to
site or domain-wide proxies and firewalls...

- --
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subject: [WikiEN-l] A cry to save the Asperger's Syndrome page

body:
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Zachary Harden wrote:
> I just got involved. I was being asked to block the user before in IRC,
> but as you can tell, he always edits by using IP's, so the likely hood
> of the block working is zero to none, closer to none.

That's what that nice little "protect" button you get when you become an
admin is for.

- --
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Theo Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:00:40 +0100, Pawe? 'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:
>
>>> Please keep in mind that if a link is used as a reference for an
>>>
>>> article, especially if it is cited in the article text, it should
>>>  never be removed, even if dead, until a suitable replacement
>>> reference is provided.
>>>
>>
>> Can't we replace such links with links to web.archive.org then?
>
>
> Adding a link to web.archive.org is appropriate and desirable but
> replacement destroys the link to the original source, which will be
> needed if/when web.archive.org dies.
>

Has the Wayback Machine archived anything new since the end of 2004?

- --
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> Does it really matter to you that said these things outside wikipedia?

Yes. If for no other reason than the issue that requiring people to read
through Stormfront pages to review Wikipedian administrative decisions is
not a good thing.

But even if he had called someone a "vampire rodent" (wtf?) etc. inside
Wikipedia I still don't think an immediate permanent ban would have been
the right remedy.

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
He will not help build an encyclopedia, therefore he should be
blocked, regardless of his crimes on the wiki itself. There are no
absolute laws on wikipedia, and I think this is a valid use of WP:IAR

--gkhan

Actually IAR is not a policy at all, it's just an absurd joke, and the
root of more foolishness than is worth discussing, not some sort of
trump card. We DO have absolute laws on wikipedia, and they described
at :

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_issues

A few that apply to this situation are: "Ability of anyone to edit
articles without registering", "NPOV as the guiding editorial
principle", and "Jimbo Wales as ultimate authority on any matter (this
is changing; see Arbitration Committee, Board)".

This situation was NOT covered by blocking policy, and was a wrongful
block by an admin. The proper procedure would have been a discussion
on Amelekites talk page, and then perhaps a RfC or RfM.

Jack (Sam Spade)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> Yes. If for no other reason than the issue that requiring people to read
> through Stormfront pages to review Wikipedian administrative decisions is
> not a good thing.

But since we're wading through them anyway I can't resist posting this
quote from an administrator at the Stormfront forum. He's addressing
User:Amalekite's cabal theories:

- - - - -
I think your analysis of this shows a presumption that any one who opposes
WN ideas must be part of a "Zionist/Jewish cabal". I don't see that.

I have noticed very little bias on the part of Wiki editors. They actually
seem to be running the place according to its free-speech principles.

It's just that a lot of people disagree with us, you know?
- - - - -

- http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225536&page=4

This is quite an astute analysis :)

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> > I would like to say that the primary goal of wikipedia is not a to be
> > a social experiment, but to build an encyclopedia. I am a strong (very
> > strong) supporter of due process when it comes to good faith regular
> > contributers, but in this case we all know what kind of a guy this is.
> > He will not help build an encyclopedia, therefore he should be
> > blocked, regardless of his crimes on the wiki itself. There are no
> > absolute laws on wikipedia, and I think this is a valid use of WP:IAR
>
> I strongly disagree. You cannot assume he will not help build an
> encyclopedia because you think you "know what kind of a guy this is". He
> arguably already has helped build an encyclopedia. I think all of his
> edits were made in good faith so that even by your criterion he deserves
> due process.
>
> I'm also sure Rachel acted in good faith by banning him. But since it has
> since become clear that there is no consensus for this ban I think it
> should be lifted. I would be fine with an alternative remedy - a stern
> warning / RfC / RfA / mentorship etc.
>
> Regards,
> Haukur
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

Exactly, the smart thing to do is encourage these guys to maintain a
single account, keep an eye on them, giving neutral or friendly advice
if it comes up, and taking them to task for policy violations when
needed. Thats what a respectable, open project like this is ment to
do.You don't beat Nazi's with their own methods. Excluding others from
discussion based on politics or creed is exactly what they'd do, and
exactly what I won't. If nothing else it violates most of our
foundation issues, esp. NPOV.

Jack (Sam Spade)


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: What links here?

body:
I have copied the text of your blog entry here for the convenience of
those who would rather read it on-list:

Cormac Lawler invented a simple but interesting wikimetric method to
measure the importance of different guidelines in a Wiki community:
Just count the number of links to it! That's citation analysis isn't
it? :-) Well, you don't really measure the importance but the number
of times Wikipedians refer to a specific rule. Here is how to do it:

   1. Select a site and "What links here", for instance
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
   2. Select "500?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Wikipedia%3ANeutral_point_of_view&limit=500&offset=0
   3. Modify the the URL "offset=0? to different higher values until
the "next 500? link disapears but the list of pages not (you have to
play around a bit) - you can also browse with prev/next 500 link
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Wikipedia%3ANeutral_point_of_view&limit=500&offset=0&offset=10500
   4. Switch to smaller number than 500 and browse to the end
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Wikipedia%3ANeutral_point_of_view&limit=20&offset=10660
   5. Have a look at the URL and add the offset plus the number of
pages in the list:
   6. 10660 + 2 = 10662 pages linking to Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

That's it. You can also change the limit=500 value to jump higher steps.

I just counted 5600 links to Wikipedia:Wikiquette. So beeing friendly
is half as important as beeing right, isn't it? ;-)

Assume_good_faith is linked 1188 times and Be bold in updating pages
9174 (all numbers determinded only some minutes ago - remember
Wikipedia grows fast)

Let me know your results with other guidelines! You can also compare
relativ numbers between different languages.

On 23/08/05, Jakob Voss <jakob.voss at nichtich.de> wrote:
> Cormac Lawler wrote:
>
> > Is there a Kate's tools-like way of counting the number of pages that
> > link to any given page through the "What links here" function? This
> > would be useful to see which policy pages are most often cited, for
> > example.
> >
> > Oh, and I mean a *simple* tool for a technologically simple guy like me.
>
> That's a very interesting idea! I just posted an answer to my blog:
> http://wm.sieheauch.de/?p=19
>
> Greetings,
> Jakob
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
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QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> It is an encyclopedia where such a hateful
> and absurd dogma as Nazi-ism has no place.

Go and VfD [[Nazism]], then. However absurd it may be, it is an
historically important dogma which needs a careful, detailed and *neutral*
treatment in a serious encyclopedia. Furthermore, WP:NPOV states:

"Wikipedia policy is that all articles should be written from a neutral
point of view: without bias, representing all majority- and
significant-minority views fairly."

The nazi point of view is, at least historically, a significant minority
view. By our own "absolute and non negotiable" NPOV policy we should
welcome articulate thoughtful nazis* as contributors to ensure this POV is
represented fairly.

> For the record, yes, I am in support of oppressing
> Nazis with every legal means at our disposal, and
> perhaps some illegal ones if we get really bored.

Thank you for that frank statement.

Regards,
Haukur

* This may or may not be the empty set.


from_name: wmf at timshell.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] user pages in default dump

body:
Is it possible and desirable to exclude user pages from the database dump?
So they don't end up on sites like Nazipedia ?

Tim


subject: [Wikitech-l] Permalink

body:
On 8/23/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Dori wrote:
> > Good idea, but I wouldn't call it a permalink as there isn't much
> > that's permanent in a wiki. What happens after a page gets
> > moved/delete?
>
> The link will continue to work after page moves. Deletion, obviously,
> would break the link, just as deletion of any resource on any dynamic
> web site would break a permalink to it.

I still don't like the name. What about templates/dynamic content? The
(displayed) content could change very significantly over time despite
having the same permalink.

Dori


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:
>>I don't see why we should have to wait until the
>>disruption begins before blocking him. He tried to cause massive
>>disruption: that he (appears to have) failed was simply down to the
>>others' lack of response.
>
>
> In a charitable interpretation he tried to recruit new editors who would
> agree with his POV on a particular issue within compliance of Wikipedia
> rules. I've tried that too - with much the same luck...
>
> In my personal opinion, and assuming I have the facts right, the user in
> question should be unblocked again.
>

I agree. If we block people from editing Wikipedia because of what they
may or may not have said somewhere other than Wikipedia, or because we
feel threatened by them, then we are... well, Godwin was right.

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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9BzzlxG6tffnw5VSZ8fh/5g=
=tLix
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
These are some direct quotes from this guy:

"A cabal of Jews and their liberal-gentile "useful idiots" are trying
to take over Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/). They have met with
little resistance so far. If they succeed in this takeover, they will
have expanded their overall domination of the media that much further
into the internet, the last refuge for free speech."

"These bastards even *brag* about what they're doing by giving their
gentile lapdogs on Wikipedia "awards"...."

"I think I've been doing a decent job of fending off these pathetic
creatures so far..."

"Don't let these vampire rodents pull one more media outlet from out
of our hands"

Does it really matter to you that said these things outside wikipedia?

--gkhan


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> He will not help build an encyclopedia, therefore he should be
> blocked, regardless of his crimes on the wiki itself. There are no
> absolute laws on wikipedia, and I think this is a valid use of WP:IAR
>
> --gkhan
>
> Actually IAR is not a policy at all, it's just an absurd joke, and the
> root of more foolishness than is worth discussing, not some sort of
> trump card. We DO have absolute laws on wikipedia, and they described
> at :
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_issues
>
> A few that apply to this situation are: "Ability of anyone to edit
> articles without registering", "NPOV as the guiding editorial
> principle", and "Jimbo Wales as ultimate authority on any matter (this
> is changing; see Arbitration Committee, Board)".
>
> This situation was NOT covered by blocking policy, and was a wrongful
> block by an admin. The proper procedure would have been a discussion
> on Amelekites talk page, and then perhaps a RfC or RfM.
>
> Jack (Sam Spade)

A few of the five pillars ([[Wikipedia:Five pillars]]) that applies to
the situation:
1. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia
2. Wikipedia uses the neutral point of view
5. Wikipedia doesn't have firm rules

As for not being an experiment in democracy, see
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-January/018735.html

--gkhan


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> This guy has basically admitted
> on another site that he will put in pro-nazi, anti-jewish POV edits.

No he has not. His theory is that Wikipedia currently has an anti-nazi
bias and that he will be acting in compliance with the NPOV policy in
trying to balance some articles. His edit summaries, unusually detailed
for a newbie, amply illustrate this. In fact he specifically calls on the
people he's trying to recruit not to do any Jew-bashing:

"However, if you're going to join in on editing the Mullins article (which I
hope you do), follow the rules of the place - no insults or personal
attacks, no Jew-bashing (though they so richly deserve it), try to keep a
Neutral Point-of-View (NPOV), and stay cool, no matter how hard they push
your buttons."

Interestingly he managed to get himself moderated for using ethnic slurs
*on the Stormfront forum*. Let them watch over their site, we'll watch
over ours.

> He has made horrible statements about fellow human beings on the
> grounds of they having a specific race. Beyond the colour of a persons
> skin, this man has no respect what so ever for his rights as a person.

He may be Genghis Khan reborn for all I know but he has remained civil on
Wikipedia and complied with our rules.

> Is that really the kind of people we want on wikipedia?

Yes. If they make useful edits and comply with our rules and guidelines.

> To edit is a privilige, not a right.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tool to fight nazis.

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> It's quite easy to make edits which seem
> legitimate, accurate, and NPOV, but are
> actually nothing of the sort.

>From a purely pragmatic point of view pre-emptive bans just aren't an
effective way of fighting this. Anyone can get a new user-name and/or
IP-address. Permanent bans aggravate users and make them more likely to
resort to underhanded tactics.

Staying wakeful, checking sources and having wikifaith is really the only
thing we can do.

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>> [H]e has remained civil on Wikipedia and complied with our rules.
>
> Maybe because that way he can make edits without getting blocked. Non?

Exactly. It didn't work, though.

> Look, he has basically said "don't say anything they don't like, then
> you'll get blocked" Ofcourse he is going to act curtiously!

Oh, what a devious fellow he is.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.5rc2 released (package fix)

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The MediaWiki 1.5rc1 release package was mistakenly built from the
development source tree rather than the 1.5 release source tree.

If you find yourself with a site claiming to be "1.6alpha" at
Special:Version, you might be slightly more avant garde than you had
intended. :)

A corrected 1.5rc2 package from the 1.5 release branch has been uploaded.

Release notes:
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=351309

Download:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.5rc2.tar.gz?download

MD5 checksums:
mediawiki-1.5rc2.tar.gz   d3855d011ad3e860d98e2e9ae5178cbd

Before asking for help, try the FAQ:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_FAQ

Low-traffic release announcements mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Jake Waskett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On Tuesday 23 August 2005 20:20, Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:
> > It is an encyclopedia where such a hateful
> > and absurd dogma as Nazi-ism has no place.
>
> Go and VfD [[Nazism]], then. However absurd it may be, it is an
> historically important dogma which needs a careful, detailed and *neutral*
> treatment in a serious encyclopedia. Furthermore, WP:NPOV states:
>
> "Wikipedia policy is that all articles should be written from a neutral
> point of view: without bias, representing all majority- and
> significant-minority views fairly."
>
> The nazi point of view is, at least historically, a significant minority
> view. By our own "absolute and non negotiable" NPOV policy we should
> welcome articulate thoughtful nazis* as contributors to ensure this POV is
> represented fairly.

I think that this is a valid and important point.

Furthermore, it often takes people representing opposing points of view to
actually achieve true neutrality. It can be a bit of a stormy journey, as
editors (often subconsciously) tug the article back and forth between their
own viewpoints, but as with a pendulum, eventually the point of neutrality
can be found.

I would find it very difficult indeed to write on Nazism from a completely
neutral viewpoint, and I certainly commend the efforts of those who have made
the effort. Glancing at the article, it seems fine to me, but I am inclined
to wonder how much of that is due to my own viewpoint blinding my senses.

Hard as it is to stomach, maybe these hypothetical "articulate and thoughtful
Nazis" might actually be able to help improve the encyclopaedia. The question
is, will it be worth it?

Jake


from_name: John Ky

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Only variable references should be returned by
	reference on PHP 4.4.0

body:
Hello,

My webserver was upgraded to PHP 4.4.0 today and I started getting these notices in the logs.  Is there anything I could do about these messages?

Thanks

-John

======================================================================

Aug 23 14:20:19 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/ObjectCache.php on line 369
Aug 23 14:20:19 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variables should be assigned by\
                reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/Parser.php on\
                line 1225
Aug 23 14:20:19 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variables should be assigned by\
                reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/Parser.php on\
                line 1045
Aug 23 14:20:19 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variables should be assigned by\
                reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/Parser.php on\
                line 1140
Aug 23 14:20:19 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variables should be assigned by\
                reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/Parser.php on\
                line 2540
Aug 23 14:20:19 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variables should be assigned by\
                reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/Parser.php on\
                line 796
Aug 23 14:20:19 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/ObjectCache.php on line 369 *2
Aug 23 14:40:16 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/Namespace.php\
                on line 136 *2
Aug 23 14:40:17 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/ObjectCache.php on line 369 *2
Aug 23 14:40:17 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/SkinTemplate.php on line 136
Aug 23 14:40:17 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/ObjectCache.php on line 369 *2
Aug 23 14:40:17 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/Namespace.php\
                on line 136
Aug 23 14:40:17 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/SkinTemplate.php on line 136
Aug 23 14:40:17 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/Namespace.php\
                on line 136
Aug 23 14:40:20 httpd: PHP Notice:  Only variable references should be returned\
                by reference in /home/bankstown/html/en/includes/ObjectCache.php on line 369 *2


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> No, he's quite specifically stated that his theory is that Wikipedia
> currently has a "pro-Jewish" bias, because it is run by a Jewish cabal.

True.

> His edits themselves had little value, and he has
> encouraged people to join Wikipedia and target certain
> users based on their ethnicity, and to use anonymous
> proxies to edit (which he admits to using himself).

In the discussion I saw he pointed out that the best way to avoid being
blocked was not to use anonymous proxies (although he was clearly familiar
with that too) but to create a username and stick to the rules. That this
method seems to have failed him does not, I think, reflect well on us. All
it will do is get him back to using open proxies.

> Furthermore,
> he has said some pretty vile things about Wikipedians, admittedly on other
> boards; but if he had posted a list of Wikipedians who he thought were
> "niggers", I wonder if the consensus for banning him would be stronger.
> Perhaps the word "kike" doesn't have quite the same taboo quality.

The precise ethnic slur used would not make any difference to me. As far
as I know 'kike' is just as offensive as 'nigger' but I'm not a native
English speaker.

> Also, how many people here would really monitor
> his edits, and actually spend the effort trying
> to figure out if they were really NPOV, aside from
> those he has targeted?

I hereby volunteer to watch his edits and revert and comment as
appropriate if he is unbanned and returns to editing. That's one. Jack,
you in? Anyone else?

> Finally, as has been pointed out, his failure to
> significantly disrupt Wikipedia was not for lack of trying.

I disagree. I don't think he had any intention of disrupting Wikipedia. He
certainly did want his own POV to be better represented, though.

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> Also, how many people here would really
> monitor his edits, and actually spend the
> effort trying to figure out if they were
> really NPOV, aside from those he has targeted?

Let me ask you in turn. How many people are going
to watch all his open proxy anonymous edits and
sockpuppet edits and spend the effort to figure
out if they are really NPOV?

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
>
> >These are some direct quotes from this guy:
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >Does it really matter to you that said these things outside wikipedia?
> >
> Yes. While Saudi Arabia may be fine with stopping advocates of
> women's rights at the border, on the theory that they are certain
> to commit heinous crimes against the social order, I think WP should
> set a less medieval standard.
>
> Pragmatically, if you pre-ban editors with open biases or goals,
> they will just make new logins and make the same edits quietly;
> just as women's advocates do now in Saudi, come to think of it. :-)
>
> Stan

Look, wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. The ability to edit
an article is a privilege, not a right. I'm am not trying to set some
sort of precedence (and that would be a horrible precedent indeed),
but lets excercise some common sense. This guy has basically admitted
on another site that he will put in pro-nazi, anti-jewish POV edits.
He has made horrible statements about fellow human beings on the
grounds of they having a specific race. Beyond the colour of a persons
skin, this man has no respect what so ever for his rights as a person.

Is that really the kind of people we want on wikipedia? To edit is a
privilige, not a right.

--gkhan


from_name: MAURICE FRANK

subject: [WikiEN-l] ethical need to reform the 3RR rule for even-handedness

body:
Hi, I'm Tern and 83.65.67.99. This is an overall
questioning of how the 3RR block rule can work, that
leads to a reform proposal. It's more than just about
a present row.

The 3RR rule can be abused if a page comes under group
targetting that outnumbers the defence or targets one
person. Wikipedia's ethicality needs to be protected
by modifying the 3RR rule to prevent this.

This issue is presented on the evidence of the chaos
presently overwhelming the article [[Asperger's
Syndrome]], where an outbreak of really spiteful
personally targetted bullying can be read on the talk
page since Aug 18. I don't mind the 3RR block being
used to see if it cools the situation. But - if 1
person gets a block and the group organised against
him don't get a block, because no single one of them
has committed 3RR, then bullies are rewarded and their
attack on the page gets protected and encouraged. This
has just happened to me.

The case involves an issue of child cruelty related to
the medical subject of Asperger Syndrome, which the
attackers want to veto any mention of at all. The
record of the argument had been of them solidly
refusing either to add a converse view to the page or
to attempt to find any mutually neutral wording. I
kept asking them to do both, and my edits were not
simple reversions but new adaptations but because I
did not lie down and accept them attacking the page
every few minutes by organised force of numbers it was
me who ended up with a 2-day block under 3RR. You see
how the balance of power was unbalanced?

The admin who made the block said it was on higher
instructions and he wasn't personally even in favour
of it. Yet I can see the point of trying to bring some
calm to the situation by trying to see if some
reasoned discussion takes place (it isn't) while the
contenders are silenced. So, I told him, I am
''actually not contesting my block'' provided all the
opponents I had  during the preceding day have been
blocked as well. Only if they have not been, am I
contesting my block, on grounds of one-sidedness
towards a person already being victimised concertedly
- and if they get a block put on them now, belatedly,
I won't claim that mine is wrong. My edits were not
simple reversions but attempts at constructive new
edits incorporating others' feelings, and only the
opponents' POV gets favoured by them each having a
personal right to 3RR which they can pool.

How then is Wikipedia to guard against having its
ethic of neutral content destroyed by the 3RR rule
working in favour of bullying campaigns and organised
frequent attacks on pages? An ethical concern for the
entire nature of Wikipedia and reform proposal to
solve the anomaly, arises from this case.It should be
circulated to the entire list of contactable users for
comment, so it can be put into practice straight away.

Proposal: simply enact

(i) the 3RR rule also to apply when different people
make the same revert, exactly the same as when 1
person does. Hence a group of users all editing on the
same side of an argument will be subject to the rule,
collectively, on equal terms to an individual.
(ii) When a 2-sided high-frequency edit war is
happening, if a 3RR block is made it must be made
simultaneously on every person on both sides who took
part during the preceding day. Admins at all levels
with discretion whether to apply a 3RR block, shall
not have discretion to apply one to only 1 side of
such a dispute.
(iii) ''Except'' as part of such a 2-sided parity, a
reverter who does not make simple reverts to the past
but writes new adaptations can't be given a 3RR block,
unless - There is a constructive editorial discussion
in progress, that is about content not personal
attacks towards that person's side, and about
factuality not an insistence on simply deleting an
item on grounds of not thinking it important.

Studying this case, do you see that without these rule
changes, Wikipedia can be dragged into giving
non-neutral positions with content censored by the
agenda of a group who keep editing the same way? and
on serious issues of how children are treated? On the
basis of this case that has just happened, I contend
that Wikipedia visibly owes to its members to make
this rule change.

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Permalink

body:
Good, but unless I'm making some mistake it only works for the current
revision - it's disabled when one is looking at an older version. Is this
a feature or a bug?

Alfio

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Tim Starling wrote:

>I put a "permalink" link in the sidebar. Consider it a trial, please
>tell me what you think. This has often been suggested, but it was most
>recently discussed at:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#Permalink_in_the_sidebar
>
>The UI message name to translate the link is "permalink".
>
>-- Tim Starling
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> > This guy has basically admitted
> > on another site that he will put in pro-nazi, anti-jewish POV edits.
>
> No he has not. His theory is that Wikipedia currently has an anti-nazi
> bias and that he will be acting in compliance with the NPOV policy in
> trying to balance some articles. His edit summaries, unusually detailed
> for a newbie, amply illustrate this. In fact he specifically calls on the
> people he's trying to recruit not to do any Jew-bashing:

"I need people who are intelligent, knowledgeable, with good writing
skills and a capacity for logical thinking, to help defeat these bozos
and overturn the hatchet job they're trying to do on Mullins."

Thats enough for me.

> "However, if you're going to join in on editing the Mullins article (which I
> hope you do), follow the rules of the place - no insults or personal
> attacks, no Jew-bashing (though they so richly deserve it), try to keep a
> Neutral Point-of-View (NPOV), and stay cool, no matter how hard they push
> your buttons."

He also said:
"Say anything in any article which is not 100% Zionist-approved and
you'll have 20 of these bastards and their sycophants gnashing at your
throat within 10 minutes."

And just after your quote:
"Otherwise, you'll blow your lid and they'll just resort to the
classic trick of labelling you an "anti-Semite" or a "neo-Nazi" and
using that as a pretext for censoring everything you say."

He is saying "don't complain, they'll block you, make your edits go
under the radar and hope nobody sees you".

> Interestingly he managed to get himself moderated for using ethnic slurs
> *on the Stormfront forum*. Let them watch over their site, we'll watch
> over ours.
>
>
> > He has made horrible statements about fellow human beings on the
> > grounds of they having a specific race. Beyond the colour of a persons
> > skin, this man has no respect what so ever for his rights as a person.
>
> He may be Genghis Khan reborn for all I know but he has remained civil on
> Wikipedia and complied with our rules.
>
Maybe because that way he can make edits without getting blocked. Non?
>
> > Is that really the kind of people we want on wikipedia?
>
> Yes. If they make useful edits and comply with our rules and guidelines.
>
>
> > To edit is a privilige, not a right.
>
> Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tool to fight nazis.
>
> Regards,
> Haukur
>
Yes, an encyclopedia. A place where there can be a free exchange of
information, not a place where people can tacitly input their (in this
case horrible) POVs.

Look, he has basically said "don't say anything they don't like, then
you'll get blocked" Ofcourse he is going to act curtiously!

--gkhan


from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikitech-l] Permalink

body:
On 8/23/05, Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>
> Good, but unless I'm making some mistake it only works for the current
> revision - it's disabled when one is looking at an older version. Is this
> a feature or a bug?

As I already said on the village pump about diff pages, I don't think
it's needed. An old revision, like a diff, already is a permalink. You
can just copy it out of your address bar. The advantage of a permalink
on current revisions is that the link changes whenever someone edits a
page.

Angela.


from_name: Theresa Knott

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:

> but if he had posted a list of Wikipedians who he thought were
> "niggers", I wonder if the consensus for banning him would be stronger.
> Perhaps the word "kike" doesn't have quite the same taboo quality.

I very much doubt it. None of the people who are arguing against the
ban have said anything along the lines of "calling people by racial
slurs is ok". Kike certainly comes across as an offensive term to me.
Just as bad as nigger.

 Also,
> how many people here would really monitor his edits,

Hundreds I should think. He's a fucking Nazi for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> and actually spend the
> effort trying to figure out if they were really NPOV, aside from those he
> has targeted?  Finally, as has been pointed out, his failure to
> significantly disrupt Wikipedia was not for lack of trying.

If disruption was what he wanted he'd follow willy on wheels' example.
He wants to correct what he perceives as a bias.
>
> Personally I don't think that Nazis should be banned from Wikipedia simply
> for being Nazis/White supremacists.  In fact, there are at least a couple
> that I know of who do edit, albeit generally unsuccessfully. As for the
> rest, in my experience, the complete inability of most of them to abide by
> policy, or even think rationally and present logical arguments, combined
> with their typical belligerence, gets them quickly banned anyway.
>
> That said, I think that banning *this particular* user was justified, based
> on the issues listed above.

I'm fairly sure he would have got himself banned pretty quickly anyway.

I just don't know, by banning quickly we save ourselves a lot of
strife, but we do give a kind of legitimacy to some of his claims (in
his eyes). I suppose time will tell on whether it was the right thing
to do. He might give up in disgust, or he might be so aggrieved by his
banning that he comes back to disrupt with a vengeance. Other Nazis
may well think it's not worth bothering with Wikipedia or they may be
so aggrieved by the banning of one of their own that previously
lukewarm to the idea Nazis will come in their droves in the name of
justice. We will have to wait and see.

Theresa
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Permalink

body:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Angela wrote:

>On 8/23/05, Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>>
>> Good, but unless I'm making some mistake it only works for the current
>> revision - it's disabled when one is looking at an older version. Is this
>> a feature or a bug?
>
>As I already said on the village pump about diff pages, I don't think
>it's needed. An old revision, like a diff, already is a permalink. You
>can just copy it out of your address bar. The advantage of a permalink
>on current revisions is that the link changes whenever someone edits a
>page.

Ah, well it makes sense. Sorry but i wasn't reading the english village
pump.

Alfio


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Thank you for your thoughtful answer, Rachel.

> Thanks for offering to do that, but I wonder if you realize how much
> work would be involved. I've done it with a few of the neo-Nazis, and
> it's not a question of blindly reverting. You have to rewrite their
> edits, because their writing is often poor; you have to resource their
> claims because the sources are often white-supremacist or personal
> websites; you have to answer their questions on talk and stay civil
> and respectful; you have to steer them in the direction of policy, and
> explain it to them many, many times.

Thanks for the warning. Yes, I think I do realize that. I tried rewriting
the [[Eustace Mullins]] article after the User:Amalekite edit skirmish and
I haven't been reverted yet. Hopefully that's a good sign.

> It's not easy to do this all the while knowing that the editor (in
> this case) personally believes that his Jewish Wikipedian colleagues
> are sub-human.

I can only hope it's good exercise for the spirit.

> Amalekite represents a tiny minority of nutcases who believe that
> certain ethnic groups and races are not fully human and do not deserve
> to live.

I believe this is a minority view, even within the racist movement. Other
parts of the racism spectrum are, I fear, rather more common. Common
enough to form a significant minority view in some cases. Exactly where on
the spectrum User:Amalekite dwells I do not know but he did not seem to be
pushing the idea that certain ethnic groups do not deserve to live.

I petition you: Lift your ban on the user. If he returns to editing (which
I think is fairly unlikely) I'll undertake to babysit him and if he breaks
any rules I'll immediately take the appropriate action.

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
On 8/23/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:

> Oh, what a devious fellow he is.

He's a nazi!!!!!!!!!!

--gkhan


subject: [WikiEN-l] re: A cry to save the Asperger's Syndrome page

body:
I have to be allowed to answer the accuracy of what is
said about me, but think it would be sterile to have
the same argument here as we have had in the talk page
concerned.

I'm still learning how the 3RR rule works in crisis
situations, and it's actually part of Asperger
Syndrome to interpret rules by logic instead of by a
tribal-type social reading of its meaning. Hence, not
"the letter of 3RR is just the way it is,lump it" but
"does 3RR apply to the letter in a situation where it
doesn't serve its intended purpose?" I kept doing
revert edits because (i) the opposition were a group
who could pool their 3RR rights, hence it was common
sense that I couldn't be handicapped unequally as 1
person defending  against them, (ii) I was reverting
an arbitrary deletion they were repeating every few
minutes, and they were refusing to make any attempt in
talk to negotiate a consensual wording, so the right
of reversion of simple vandalism logically applied.
Most of my edits were not simple reverts to the past,
they were consensual attempts to find new versions
incorporating other users' points on the issue.

All were done properly logged in except just 1 that
went through as IP accidentally and was still
identifed from my edit summary, so there has never
been any attempt at anonymity and what is Zachary
getting at? As for the edit summariesd Ryan calls
hurtful,they were my defences to the hurtfulness of
the group campaign and gave an ethical case for each
edit.

I have not accused anyone of hurting children, what I
accused was that deletion of the item is an act
against the prevention of hurting children. This is
apparent from the item. I contended logically this
actually made the other side of this edit war illegal.

As can be seen in talk, the edit war was started by a
user called 24.19.0.114, now called ManekiNeko, who
came there out of nowhere and arbitrarily posted a
personal attack on my character, drawn from his own
unsubstantiated prejudice that an issue he knows I
care about does not matter, and from believing some
lies - which he repeated - that are spread by the
Aspies For Freedom site that I and many other aspies
have had serious ethical problems with that are
documented in other places. This user also exposed my
name without consent. This was supposed to justify
deleting a 1-sentence item just because it was by me:
i.e. personal prejudice, and arguing that the sentence
was dangerous to Wikipedia's reputation just because
it was by me! The only issue around Wikipedia's
reputation is that users can't treat each other like
that!

The discussion on it has consisted of personal attacks
ever since. The only arguments given against the item
have been personal attacks or assertions that it is
not important without saying why. and since whe has
thinking an item not important, which another user
thinks is deeply important concerning how children are
treated, been a reason for making such an
out-of-control fuss, not for editing it but for
totally excluding any mention of it? and for a group
vendetta to that effect?

Ryan has shown here too that he is letting personal
dislike cause careless errors in what he says about
me. I'm not a 14-year old who can't get a book
published, at all! I'm 37! and was in the ''early
eighties'' a victim of schoolwork pressures and
long-drawn-out traumas with the school system that
unfairly ruined my chance to complete writing a book
at that age.

The site that Ryan and a couple of others are trying
to tar as a "hate site", has on its front page a legal
commitment to the right to reply for anyone commented
about on it. It is in fact an anti-hate site for
sticking up for personal fairness on other sites.
Getting listed on it is no worse than getting listed
on the blocks page here! - unless of course because
you demonstrably have done something really mean you
haven't got a reply. It is an issue of balance that if
this site, Spectrum Fairness, is not linked to, then
neither are Aspies For Freedom and its offshoot
Autistic Pride Day.

Anyway, I have sent in to this section a new separate
topic, Ethical Need To Reform the 3RR Rule For
Even-Handedness, to make a case to the whole of
Wikipedia for reform of the 3RR rule to pin it down to
work 2-sidedly, as it has not in this case where all
my opponents should have been given blocks on equal
terms alongside me.

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> [[Alex Linder]]'s (Amalekite's) Wikipedia article states (I haven't
> personally checked the link offered as a source): "According to
> archived correspondence at VNN involving editorial responses to
> readers' letters, Linder supports the idea that virtually all
> non-whites the world over ought to be exterminated, in order to
> eliminate even the possibility of racial intermixing, and their lands
> repopulated with white settlers."
> http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/letters132.htm

I read through that. Can't say it wasn't painful. Yes, the editor of that
forum apparently wants all non-white people exterminated - except for the
Japanese and the Ainu who he thinks are cool.

Revolting as this position is I don't think holding it should disqualify
anyone from editing Wikipedia. I admit that I feel squalid saying that but
it's the logical result of my principles and I'd prefer not to abandon
them.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Improving navigation of WMF pages on meta

references:
<cfe1dfe1050821024861a15333@mail.gmail.com>
	<cfe1dfe105082102563381b2cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<de9n1p$hpa$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<cfe1dfe105082105003f633ae5@mail.gmail.com>
	<deal8a$l6p$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 21/08/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> However, I agree some other links could be removed. Elections can be put
> in board. Chapters could be limited to one general link to all chapters,
> where we can also generally explain relationship, mailing list etc...

All true. Except the template was locked.

Nice.

Dan


from_name: Joshua Marinacci

subject: [Wikitech-l] rich client / webservice research

body:
Hello all. I was wondering if there is a particular website or mailing
list specifically about automated access to the Wikipedia content?  I'm
thinking of something along the lines of a webservice API or spec for
semantic XHTML content.  Perhaps something about desktop application
access as well?

I'm the author of Flying Saucer, an embeddable Java XHTML renderer and
I'm interested in making a client which could render Wikipedia content
in interesting ways. (annotations, searching, animation, etc.)  I'm
wondering if there are existing resources on this some where.

Thanks!

- Joshua


from_name: Phroziac

body:
Maybe replace them all with boilerplate notices saying they are
wikipedians, and linking back, for attribution..

On 8/23/05, wmf at timshell.com <wmf at timshell.com> wrote:
>
> Is it possible and desirable to exclude user pages from the database dump?
> So they don't end up on sites like Nazipedia ?
>
> Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Zachary Harden

body:
Dear All,

While the website said they are not open, I decided to take a peek and see
what they offered. So, for a test, I check out one of my articles [[Hero of
Belarus]]. Well, they have a version of the article, which was an edit done
on June 18 of this year
http://pseudodoxia.flawlesslogic.com/index.php?title=Hero_of_Belarus&action=history.
That is the only edit, surprisingly, that the history shows. So, for another
test, I clicked the talk page. They are using our templates alright, but no
images (like in the article). I scroll down and see my name, and sure
enough, my user page exists
(http://pseudodoxia.flawlesslogic.com/index.php?title=User:Zscout370). Well,
for other problems, I see the MediaWiki logo to the bottom. If there are
other things that worry you, just let me know and I could snoop around. But,
most likely, they took out site from the end of June, so this could have
been untouched for two months.

Regards,

Zachary Harden


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
I hereby volunteer to watch his edits and revert and comment as
appropriate if he is unbanned and returns to editing. That's one. Jack,
you in? Anyone else?

In theory yes, but I doubt he'll be unbanned, or that if he was that
he would edit w that account again. This thread really drives home
what I don't like about the wikipedia. Its not the goals, or the
policies, its this "IAR's, admins have special rights, lets enforce
our POV" crowd that makes me contemplate what I'm doing here.

Jack (Sam Spade)


from_name: Matt R

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
--- slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:
> As David Gerard has said: "Wikipedia is not an experiment in Internet
> democracy. It's a project to write an encyclopedia." The encyclopedia
> is the thing that matters,

The encyclopedia could actually be improved by someone editing who has neo-Nazi
beliefs; that is, if we're serious about NPOV on articles like [[Neo-Nazism]]
and so forth.

> and Amalekite was out to subvert it for the
> good of his own tiny-minority cause, not for the good of Wikipedia.

Well, he's said some things that might make you think that. But maybe he just
wants to improve Wikipedia by, as he might see it, NPOVing biased articles?
Maybe he doesn't, but it's possible; he has said "follow the rules of the place
- no insults or personal attacks, no Jew-bashing (though they so richly deserve
it), try to keep a Neutral Point-of-View (NPOV), and stay cool, no matter how
hard they push your buttons."

The truth is, it's a tricky thing to divine someone's true intent from their
postings in wacky forums outside of Wikipedia. It's *much* safer, not to
mention more accountable and transparent, to watch their actions within
Wikipedia carefully and act accordingly.

-- Matt

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto
Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
> I read through that. Can't say it wasn't painful. Yes, the editor of that
> forum apparently wants all non-white people exterminated - except for the
> Japanese and the Ainu who he thinks are cool.
>
> Revolting as this position is I don't think holding it should disqualify
> anyone from editing Wikipedia. I admit that I feel squalid saying that but
> it's the logical result of my principles and I'd prefer not to abandon
> them.

Then again H.G. Wells advocated much the same idea (without that wussy
exception for people living in Hokkaido) and I don't mind reading his
books. Maybe I should.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

James D. Forrester wrote:
> Alphax wrote:
>
> [Archive.org]
>
>
>>>Has the Wayback Machine archived anything new since the end of 2004?
>
>
> They archive loads; the archives are only available some 6 months or so
> after archival, though, so as not to be a direct "competitor" for the
> same content, or something. Thus it won't appear to have "archived"
> anything since about February.
>

Ah, kind of like our DB dumps then :)

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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