from_name: Aphaia

subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo

body:
A question on "beta" stage of Wikinews came to me.

Though Wikinews is a prospective project, it is still one of most
controversial project among us, and hasty action woudn't be good for
its development in my humble opinion.

I've understood it is (or has been, I am not sure for that) on its
beta stage because of the board decision, not depending on its
activity. The most recent board was held in the last week and there
was no discussion if Wikinews switched from its beta stage to the
stage in its real activity. And this decision was made for the
Wikinews entirely, not to its each local project.

Now it seems to be suggested the judge of the end of beta stage
depends only the activites of each local project, not related to the
board decision. It seems to me a bit strange and adventurous.  It is
my wrong understanding or I miss some announce on Wikinews?

--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo


list: wikien-l

from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [WikiEN-l] Don't push POV into the Wikipedia software and policies

body:
On Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:36 PM, Tony Sidaway
<minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:

> Stan Shebs said:
>
> > Even though we ourselves might not want a bowdlerized WP,
> > it would be extraordinarily convenient to have some kind
> > of subset quasi-mirror that advertised themselves as
> > "child-safe".
>
> Absolutely.  This is what I've been proposing for some time.

Indeed. It's called "Wikipedia 1.0", and /that/ can have filtering and
whathaveyou as much as you want, with a "child-friendly" default (whatever
that is). My, and I think perhaps quite a few others', main problem with the
use of server-side filtering is that it evidently won't be 100% effective in
a dynamic environment, and it only takes one slip-up - just one - to cause a
PR problem of which it seems to be primarily developed with a mind to
attempting to avoid. I would absolutely /love/ to participate in the
Wikipedia 1.0 project, including very much content-categorisation.

So how about it, everybody? ;-)

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Sulev Iva

subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
Hi,

I asked for creating the V?ro Wikipedia (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#V.C3.B5ro_Wikipedia) in
talk pages of developers and in Bugzilla some weeks ago. Still no answer. Maybe somebody can tell me, when the V?ro Wikipedia
will created.

Best wishes
Sulev Iva

13.02.2005 23:53:52, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> kirot':

>Hi Sulev,
>
>I believe that at this point the creation is probably for-sure and the
>time of creation is equal to the soonest convenience of the
>developers.
>
>The surest bet to create it is Brion since he does most of these sorts
>of things.
>
>You might try filing a bug request at http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/,
>or leaving a message on Brion's, TimStarling's, or another developer's
>talkpage on Wikipedia.
>
>Mark
>
>On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:24 +0200, Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee> wrote:
>> Dear members of Wikipedia-l and Foundation-l,
>>
>> I asked for creation of V?ro Wikipedia last month in foundation-l and request page:
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#V.C3.B5ro_Wikipedia.
>> Angela forwarded it also to the Wikipedia-l.
>>
>> It was proposed in the discussion that the code for V?ro Wikipedia could be for the first time "fiu-vro" or "fiu-voro". There
>> was no serious objections against creating.
>>
>> Does somebody know when the V?ro Wikipedia will be created?
>> (By the way: on what the creation depends, who and when decides it?)
>> What else should be done by me before?
>>
>> Regards
>> Sulev (V?rok)
>>
>> 2.02.2005 20:11:58, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> kirot':
>>
>> >Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no
>> >reaction on that list....
>> >
>> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >From: Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee>
>> >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200
>> >Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi?
>> >To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>> >
>> >
>> >Dear members of the foundaton,
>> >I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a
>> >native speaker,
>> >researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro
>> >(native name V?ro
>> >or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric
>> >languages. It has about
>> >70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia.
>> >Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in
>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/.
>> >
>> >I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We
>> >can translate
>> >Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with
>> >creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few
>> >speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and
>> >computerized people and
>> >the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own
>> >language. I'm sure the
>> >number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub,
>> >Cornish, Gaelic,
>> >Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have
>> >discussed the idea of
>> >V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc.
>> >(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia).
>> >They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too.
>> >Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia

body:
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:08:41 +0000, Christiaan Briggs
<christiaan at last-straw.net> wrote:
> This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism:

I don't think he did vandalism around on this issue. He had just a
different thought and idea of yours: what should be discussed, what
are related topics and so on. And it is not good in my humble opinion
to call someone who acted not in a way you would like to a "vandal". I
look here only the deferences of opinions and sad misunderstandings.
NO vandalism, I dare say. Though Gerald and I have different opinions
sometimes, in my views he has been on a good faith since I''ve known
him

Christian, you requested for comments on this issue on EN WP. I thank
you for your request, "Two are better than one",  but it were better
you would have done so before you stated  Gerald made vandalism. BTW I
can't understand why you made your request on EN WP which only ENWP
issues would be resolve. If your concern is only related to EN WP, why
have you discussion on meta and foundation-l?   (For your information
meta has also RfC to resolve comunity-wide disputes)  It's not an
accusation but a pure question. Anyway I hope you will have sufficient
comments to resolve this issues, and all of you, to Christiaan,
Nicholas Knight and Gerald will be satisfied with the result at last.

--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 00:35]:
> David Gerard wrote:

> >>How does one purge debate while at the same announcing where it is in
> >>the opening paragraph?

> >Evidently he feels it is profoundly lacking in prominence.

> You didn't answer my question.

Er, yes I did. That's three times I have now. Please go back and read the
posts, I'm not going to rephrase it a fourth time.

> >>Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that
> >>has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been
> >>_moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned
> >>by Gerard's shrill.

> >Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part?

> You used the word purge. Please explain what has been purged. I would
> hate to think any of this discussion has been removed from Wikimedia.

>From a very relevant page. You can hardly claim a contentious move is not
being planned when you are actively planning it, and having such a page
give the impression it is anything other than highly contentious is
(evidently) problematic in itself.

- d.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] What now?

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:12:32 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
>>So I have my little mediawiki 1.4rc1 running OK on my PB G4
>
> I just wanted to comment that a lot of the things people have
> mentionned are of the order of brand new features, so won't it make
> more sense for some of them to be developed on HEAD (1.5) rather than
> 1.4?
>
> Or am I doing the wrong thing hacking at that branch? [Trying to
> rationalise the image syntax parsing somewhat]

Pretty much anything that's not a security fix, localization correction,
or relatively straightforward bug fix should be done in the HEAD branch
for 1.5.

If a bug fix can be cleanly worked into REL1_4 without breaking things,
then we'd be thrilled to have it in 1.4 too. :)

Personally, I keep three branches checked out and have three test wikis
on my two development machines (a PowerBook running Mac OS X and a
desktop PC running Linux): a REL1_3 checkout for security updates on
1.3, a REL1_4 for current fixes, and a HEAD for major work on the next
release.

Remember less is more; new features should strive to remove complexity
rather than add it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 01:08]:

> This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=End-
> user_image_suppression&curid=15602&diff=0&oldid=0

That's not even close to vandalism by any reasonable definition. Wht it has
done is concisely outline the actual situation that you appear not to wish
to acknowledge in any way at all.

What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph:

  This page originated from a discussion on the WikiEN-I mailing list where
  some level of consensus was reached between the free-speech and content
  suppression parties that a technical solution is possible that will go a
  long way towards satisfying most mainstream positions in the debate.

- and add the following text:

  However, it should be stressed that this page is ''not'' intended to imply
  that this is a <i>fait accompli</i>, but merely an initial exploration of
  the specification and feasibility of a possible solution. The features
  described below are ''not'' currently under development, and will certainly
  not be made live until their desirability has been firmly established.

Are you saying that this is false, and making out that saying this is
"vandalism"?

- d.


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] What now?

body:
Stan Shebs schrieb:

> So I have my little mediawiki 1.4rc1 running OK on my PB G4
> (Panther at the moment, Tiger coming up), and am looking at the
> bugzilla list, but it's somewhat unclear on how to choose what
> to look at - priorities and criticalities seem kind of random.
> I have some bigger projects in mind, but this is my first foray
> into web apps, so I'd like to try some simpler hackery to begin
> with. Any suggestions?

There's a page on Meta, but it's pretty out of date:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Development_tasks

Some small and medium-sized tasks that would make a big difference, in
my opinion:

1) Per-page blocks (only from an individual page, not the associated
talk page). This could be a very useful tool in addition to full blocks.
Some more radical thoughts on blocking and vandalism:
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-March/021341.html

2) Filters for Special:Recentchanges, e.g. namespace filter. Paging
("next 50") like on history and contributions pages. Simplify RC patrol
- is it used for anything but new pages?

3) Summarize uploads into one line in Special:Recentchanges, instead of
two (could omit the Image:Foo.jpg line and just linkify the
Image:Foo.jpg in the upload comment)

4) Transclude shared repository (Wikimedia Commons) image information
from a shared database ($wgSharedDB). Tricky part would be cache
interaction, though simply transcluding dynamically and purging manually
might be enough for now. Having an "extlinks" table in the shared DB
that collects data on where the files are used would be excellent.

5) Add a simple license selection dropdown list to the upload form. This
could get its data from MediaWiki:Licenses, which could be a paired list
like:

GNU Free Documentation License=>{{GFDL}}

The part before the "=>" would be shown in the dropdown. The part after
the "=>" would be inserted into the image description page if the option
is selected.

6) Structure category pages by namespace:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=450

7) "Save as" for upload form:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1105

8) EXIF data for uploads: http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1555

9) Rename "Image:" namespace to "File:", but make sure "Image:" (*or its
localized equivalent, that is the hard part*) continues to work as a
synonym.

10) Delayed editing as alternative to protecting pages. This is medium
to big. When protecting a page, allow the user to set a timer. The page
remains openly editable, but users are actually editing a copy (how to
best explain this UI-wise - on edit screen, page history?). The copy
only replaces the live version after the timer has elapsed. The timer is
reset to the full time whenever someone else makes an edit within the
set timespan.

These should keep you busy for a while ;-). On the bug, security and
performance side of things, Brion can give you the priorities. Let me
know if I can help with any of these.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Christiaan Briggs christiaan at last-straw.net:
:On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:49 pm, Rowan Collins wrote:
:> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard
:> <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:

:>> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph:

:> This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in
:> question was unquestionably vandalism.
:> The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one
:> Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole
:> page.

:Oh, thanks, I thought I was going nuts for a second there!

You're right - looking at the history, that would be disrupting to make a
point.  This is probably not a helpful thing to do in a hot debate.

Is the present version sufficient for you? It's pretty much OK by me.
GerardM?

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Zend Optimiser

body:
Tomer Chachamu (the.r3m0t at gmail.com) [050225 07:24]:

> We are already using Turck, but see:
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-February/020252.htm
> Is this authentic?

I don't know if it's authentic, but it came through to the list from an
unsubscribed address and I approved it ;-)

- d.


from_name: Domas Mituzas

subject: [Wikitech-l] What now?

body:
Hey,

> some simpler hackery to begin with. Any suggestions?

Welcome! :) You may sure join #mediawiki channel at irc.freenode.org, that's where rants and raves are discussed, so you may catch up to latest breezes of development, as well as notice incoming bugzilla tickets :)

Most productive discussions happen live;-)

Domas


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [Wikitech-l] What now?

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:12:32 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
>
>>So I have my little mediawiki 1.4rc1 running OK on my PB G4
>>
>
>I just wanted to comment that a lot of the things people have
>mentionned are of the order of brand new features, so won't it make
>more sense for some of them to be developed on HEAD (1.5) rather than
>1.4?
>
I just started there to have a known-working-more-or-less version;
if I actually do something worthwhile, I'll set up a test copy of
the head as well.

Stan


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] What now?

body:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:40:20 +0100, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:

> 1) Per-page blocks (only from an individual page, not the associated
> talk page). This could be a very useful tool in addition to full blocks.
> Some more radical thoughts on blocking and vandalism:
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-March/021341.html

Apart from per-page blocks, a block for the main namespace would also
seem useful. Then someone could be forbidden from making changes
themselves, but still propose them or state his own case.

> 2) Filters for Special:Recentchanges, e.g. namespace filter. Paging
> ("next 50") like on history and contributions pages. Simplify RC patrol
> - is it used for anything but new pages?

I and several others on nl: are using it for anonymous edits as well.
I even have http://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speciaal:Recentchanges&hideliu=1&hideminor=1&hidebots=1&hidepatrolled=1&limit=20
as one of my starting pages. If I have the time I go through those 20,
then take 20 _with_ logged in users then without again...

> 5) Add a simple license selection dropdown list to the upload form. This
> could get its data from MediaWiki:Licenses, which could be a paired list
> like:
>
> GNU Free Documentation License=>{{GFDL}}
>
> The part before the "=>" would be shown in the dropdown. The part after
> the "=>" would be inserted into the image description page if the option
> is selected.

Yes! That would be good!

Andre Engels


subject: [Wikitech-l] Testing if a page exists

body:
Jim Higson wrote:
> How can I check if a page exists from a program?

You can hit Special:Export/Pagename; if the response contains no <page>
elements, the page does not exist.

> I've tried doing a HEAD request to the page url with &action=raw, but that
> returns 200 regardless if the page exists (bug or feature?).

You get a 200 because the wiki script exists, and hasn't yet been
special cased to return a 404 response for pages which don't exist.

 > The only way I
> can find at the moment is the Date and Last-Modified response headers are
> the same if the article doesn't exist yet, but this seems a bit too
> hackish.
[...]
> Oops, actually the Last-Modified header is always one hour (to the second)
> before Date if the article doesn't exist.

I can't reproduce this; for pages that don't exist there is no
Last-Modified header at all. Can you show a sample request and returned
headers?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] What now?

body:
Stan Shebs (shebs at apple.com) [050225 12:12]:

> So I have my little mediawiki 1.4rc1 running OK on my PB G4
> (Panther at the moment, Tiger coming up), and am looking at the
> bugzilla list, but it's somewhat unclear on how to choose what
> to look at - priorities and criticalities seem kind of random.
> I have some bigger projects in mind, but this is my first foray
> into web apps, so I'd like to try some simpler hackery to begin
> with. Any suggestions?

Seconded (almost got it up on FreeBSD). Is there any categorisation of bugs
that count as small things no-one's gotten around to for those unfamiliar
with the codebase, or something like that?

- d.


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] What now?

body:
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:12:32 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> So I have my little mediawiki 1.4rc1 running OK on my PB G4

I just wanted to comment that a lot of the things people have
mentionned are of the order of brand new features, so won't it make
more sense for some of them to be developed on HEAD (1.5) rather than
1.4?

Or am I doing the wrong thing hacking at that branch? [Trying to
rationalise the image syntax parsing somewhat]

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Edward Peschko

subject: [Wikitech-l] running wiki on command line

body:
On Fri, Feb 25, 2005 at 12:48:18AM -0600, Peter Danenberg wrote:
> > Or, even c/C++, or *shudder* java?
>
>
>      Some cavaliers (Timwi, Magnus, Manfred) have made oeil-
> lades in that direction, Ed; and a C engine would enable  us
> to dish out pages, say, as a native Apache handler.
>
>      It's  a  big project, however; and the .php, being just
> functional enough, engenders a fatal inertia.

hmm. would a C++ engine allow a native apache handler as well? Or even
C#? I agree that C is the ubiquitous choice, but IMO mediawiki *does*
benefit from being fairly OO, and with the right OO design mediawiki
wouldn't box itself in a corner. Of course you can do OO in C, it just
tends to get a little uglier.

Plus if C++ was chosen, you'd have all of boost to play with for parsing
and other low-level data structure formatting..They've also got a pretty
good threading library.

Ed


from_name: Arno M

body:
What if any zealot realises an objection to any reference whatever to Mr X being Gay, having children
outside of marriage, being of non-caucasion marriage, having "***-challenged" outsode of marriage,
etc.

This is a problem that wikipedia can and does have.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christiaan Briggs" <christiaan at last-straw.net>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Political correctness vs NPOV
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:01:09 +0000

>
> Yes, an ambiguous term, like "discrimination." Many terms that are
> equated mostly with negative connotations (mostly for political
> reasons) are in fact neutral terms. Hence we have negative and
> positive discrimination for instance.
>
> Christiaan
>
> On 24 Feb 2005, at 7:48 pm, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
> > That effectively converts the term into an ambiguous one.  We may
> > easily agree that the three issues that you list have more
> > positive than negative connotations, but the person who believes
> > that trees cause pollution will see the political correctness of
> > the environmentalist as a negative.  This does not bode well for
> > any menaingful use of the term.
> > Ec
> >
> > Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> >
> >> Political correctness may often be used as a pejorative term but
> >> it actually has positive connotations as well as the negative
> >> that Ray has pointed out. Political correctness has been used
> >> for all sorts of issues, e.g. civil rights movement, womens
> >> rights, and the environment to name a few. In this sense it is
> >> not always something to be "overcome" but encouraged in some
> >> instances.
> >>
> >> Christiaan
> >>
> >> On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:19 pm, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> >>
> >>> Arno M wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Just out of curiosity - does Political correctness apply as
> >>>> NPOV or as an ideology as described below?
> >>>
> >>> Political correctness is independent of the ideology it
> >>> supports.  It can attach to any ideology.  It will generally
> >>> involve supporting the "right" views as they prevail in the
> >>> society out of fear of being seen as different.  Sometimes the
> >>> penalty for not being politically correct may be social
> >>> ostracism; in other circumstances, such as in Nazi Germany, the
> >>> penalties could be far more severe.  In the United States
> >>> supporting the troops in Iraq is a matter of political
> >>> correctness.
> >>>
> >>> Thus I would see political correctness as neither NPOV nor an
> >>> ideology.  At the same time practitioners of political
> >>> correctness have a personal need to believe that their actions
> >>> express a NPOV, something which they can easily confirm in the
> >>> positive feedback loop of their own community. Overcoming
> >>> political correctness requires both insight and courage.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

--
_______________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


subject: [Wikitech-l] missing patch-logging-title.sql

body:
Richard Holton wrote:
> In the HEAD (1.5) version of updater.inc, function
> do_logging_encoding(), it is looking for the file
> 'maintenance/archives/patch-logging-title.sql', which does not seem to
> exist.
>
> CVS shows that Brion checked in the patch. Anyone know where I can get
> the missing file?

Seems I forgot to cvs add it. Checked in now.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Felix Wan

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
On Thu, February 24, 2005 4:50 pm, Angela said:
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:43:03 -0700, Mark Williamson
> <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately the conlang part does not apply to Cantonese,
>> although the miniwiki "scratchpad" may, it's not much different
>> from what we have already at Meta.
>
> I only meant this for Quenya. I don't think there would be any
> advantage to starting a Cantonese encyclopedia at Wikicities.
>
After browsing the wonderful Wikicities for some time, I have a
different idea.  We do not need to be bound by the format of an
encyclopedia.  Why not start a wiki about Cantonese, written
mainly in standard English and/or standard Chinese?  I believe
that wiki will be very useful, will attract contributors and
readers, and should not be opposed.

Since that will be a different project, I would like to do a
quick popularity survey here.  Who will support that project?
Who will contribute?

If the Quenya people are still on the list, let me tell you that
I would like to see a wiki about Quenya written in English too.
Of course, there is no restriction on writing example articles
in Quenya.

Felix Wan


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report

body:
On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not
available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination of
PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for
other sources at this time).

This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds
collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal
($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal.

For information on our recent server issues see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash

Day  7			        Day 6 comparison
Breakdown:
PayPal		USD equiv	USD equiv	%change
AUD	  76.00	    $60.08	   $47.99	 25.19%
CAD 	 320.73	   $259.89	  $140.42	 85.08%
EUR 	1045.41	 $1,366.56	$1,495.07	 -8.60%
GBP 	 353.22	   $670.34	  $848.64	-21.01%
JPY	10455	    $99.10	  $185.62	-46.61%
USD	2670.05	 $2,670.05	$2,404.35	 11.05%
PayPal total:	 $5,126.02	$5,122.09	  0.08%

MoneyBookers	no data	           $0.00	  0.00%
Mail/Post	  $295.00	  $75.00	293.33%

	TOTAL	$5,421.02	$5,122.09	5.84%

Grand totals so far (only counting complete days)

PayPal		   USD equiv	%GrandTotal
AUD	1333.71	   $1,054.30	2.03%
CAD 	2466.59	   $1,998.68	3.85%
EUR 	13532.65  $17,689.88	34.04%
GBP 	2751.63	   $5,222.04	10.05%
JPY	134133	   $1,271.45	2.45%
USD	23937.51  $23,937.51	46.06%
PayPal total:	  $51,173.86

Moneybookers:	    $426.69      0.82%
Mail/Post	    $370.00      0.71%

GRAND TOTAL	$51,970.55	100.00%

% toward goal      69.29%

For the most recent grand total and other details visit
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1

Some selected comments from Day 7:
See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7

"To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous

"Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by Andrew
O'Callaghan

"this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by Anonymous

"The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous

"Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and
the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and
others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous

"This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of
what you have created." by Anonymous

"Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov

"here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work :-)"
by Anonymous

"detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank you."
by David McMillan

"Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews

"Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous

"Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker

Some of my favorites:

"I love philanthropy" by Anonymous

"Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary

"This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that it
is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert

"Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael
Becker

"Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne

"I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by
Jeremy Smith

"Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan

Daniel Mayer,
Wikimedia CFO

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 7 Fund Drive Report

body:
On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not
available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination of
PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for
other sources at this time).

This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds
collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal
($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal.

For information on our recent server issues see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash

Day  7			        Day 6 comparison
Breakdown:
PayPal		USD equiv	USD equiv	%change
AUD	  76.00	    $60.08	   $47.99	 25.19%
CAD 	 320.73	   $259.89	  $140.42	 85.08%
EUR 	1045.41	 $1,366.56	$1,495.07	 -8.60%
GBP 	 353.22	   $670.34	  $848.64	-21.01%
JPY	10455	    $99.10	  $185.62	-46.61%
USD	2670.05	 $2,670.05	$2,404.35	 11.05%
PayPal total:	 $5,126.02	$5,122.09	  0.08%

MoneyBookers	no data	           $0.00	  0.00%
Mail/Post	  $295.00	  $75.00	293.33%

	TOTAL	$5,421.02	$5,122.09	5.84%

Grand totals so far (only counting complete days)

PayPal		   USD equiv	%GrandTotal
AUD	1333.71	   $1,054.30	2.03%
CAD 	2466.59	   $1,998.68	3.85%
EUR 	13532.65  $17,689.88	34.04%
GBP 	2751.63	   $5,222.04	10.05%
JPY	134133	   $1,271.45	2.45%
USD	23937.51  $23,937.51	46.06%
PayPal total:	  $51,173.86

Moneybookers:	    $426.69      0.82%
Mail/Post	    $370.00      0.71%

GRAND TOTAL	$51,970.55	100.00%

% toward goal      69.29%

For the most recent grand total and other details visit
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1

Some selected comments from Day 7:
See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7

"To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous

"Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by Andrew
O'Callaghan

"this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by Anonymous

"The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous

"Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and
the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and
others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous

"This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of
what you have created." by Anonymous

"Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov

"here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work :-)"
by Anonymous

"detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank you."
by David McMillan

"Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews

"Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous

"Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker

Some of my favorites:

"I love philanthropy" by Anonymous

"Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary

"This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that it
is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert

"Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael
Becker

"Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne

"I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by
Jeremy Smith

"Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan

Daniel Mayer,
Wikimedia CFO

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 7 Fund Drive Report


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Day 7 Fund Drive Report


subject: opps (was: Re: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report )

body:
That subject line obviously should read 'Day 7 Fund Report'.

Sorry folks!

-- mav

--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not
> available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination
> of
> PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for
> other sources at this time).
>
> This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds
> collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal
> ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal.
>
> For information on our recent server issues see
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash
>
> Day  7			        Day 6 comparison
> Breakdown:
> PayPal		USD equiv	USD equiv	%change
> AUD	  76.00	    $60.08	   $47.99	 25.19%
> CAD 	 320.73	   $259.89	  $140.42	 85.08%
> EUR 	1045.41	 $1,366.56	$1,495.07	 -8.60%
> GBP 	 353.22	   $670.34	  $848.64	-21.01%
> JPY	10455	    $99.10	  $185.62	-46.61%
> USD	2670.05	 $2,670.05	$2,404.35	 11.05%
> PayPal total:	 $5,126.02	$5,122.09	  0.08%
>
>
> MoneyBookers	no data	           $0.00	  0.00%
> Mail/Post	  $295.00	  $75.00	293.33%
>
> 	TOTAL	$5,421.02	$5,122.09	5.84%
>
>
> Grand totals so far (only counting complete days)
>
> PayPal		   USD equiv	%GrandTotal
> AUD	1333.71	   $1,054.30	2.03%
> CAD 	2466.59	   $1,998.68	3.85%
> EUR 	13532.65  $17,689.88	34.04%
> GBP 	2751.63	   $5,222.04	10.05%
> JPY	134133	   $1,271.45	2.45%
> USD	23937.51  $23,937.51	46.06%
> PayPal total:	  $51,173.86
>
>
> Moneybookers:	    $426.69      0.82%
> Mail/Post	    $370.00      0.71%
>
> GRAND TOTAL	$51,970.55	100.00%
>
> % toward goal      69.29%
>
> For the most recent grand total and other details visit
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1
>
> Some selected comments from Day 7:
> See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7
>
> "To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous
>
> "Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by
> Andrew
> O'Callaghan
>
> "this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by
> Anonymous
>
> "The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous
>
> "Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and
> the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and
> others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous
>
> "This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of
> what you have created." by Anonymous
>
> "Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov
>
> "here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work
> :-)"
> by Anonymous
>
> "detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank
> you."
> by David McMillan
>
> "Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews
>
> "Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous
>
> "Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker
>
> Some of my favorites:
>
> "I love philanthropy" by Anonymous
>
> "Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary
>
> "This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that
> it
> is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert
>
> "Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael
> Becker
>
> "Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne
>
> "I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by
> Jeremy Smith
>
> "Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan
>
>
> Daniel Mayer,
> Wikimedia CFO
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


from_name: Richard Holton

body:
In the HEAD (1.5) version of updater.inc, function
do_logging_encoding(), it is looking for the file
'maintenance/archives/patch-logging-title.sql', which does not seem to
exist.

CVS shows that Brion checked in the patch. Anyone know where I can get
the missing file?

-Rich Holton
--

en.wikipedia:User:Rholton


from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject: [Wikitech-l] Some problems with Wikipedia's iD

body:
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:02:07 -0800, Kesava Mallela <kesava at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought this would be a good forum to bring up some interaction
> design  problems with Wikipedia.
>
> These are some of the problems I found as an active contributor who
> also happens to be an interaction designer.
>
> 1.      Wikipedia shows only the last edit of an article in the watch list.
> This leaves the writer no clue of the edits that took place from
> his/her base lined version. (Base lined version will generally be the
> user's last edit on the article.). Some kind of visualization
> technique on all the edits only can give the writer a sense of the
> course taken by the article.
>
> 2.      Too many entries in watch list make it very difficult to clear them
> on a day. Some kind of prioritization needs to be done...like ignoring
> the minor edits...or flagging
> a.      the articles which are more prone to vandalism or
> b.      an article where some real interesting edits are happening or
> c.      articles on which some of your trusted buddies are working on...
>
> 3.      When you work on more than a few articles, it is very natural that
> you might find a same set of people working on those or similar
> articles. Wikipedia could encourage collaboration by allowing me to
> watch any articles edited by my buddies. (Of course, only if my buddy
> agrees to it, which I would think he would, for it is a chance for
> both of us to write a quality article.)
>
> 4.      When you start with an article, it is very probable that you would
> be interested in editing related articles. e.g.: If you start with
> Satyajit Ray, you might be interested in editing/reviewing the
> articles for Bengali cinema, or Mrinal Sen or Italian Neo-realist
> Cinema or the Apu Trilogy. One simple heuristic that could help meet
> the similar goals would be to allow the user to watch all the articles
> that link to a particular article or watch all the articles that have
> been manually grouped as categories. The feature "Related Changes"
> tries to do something similar, but lists the changes to the articles
> listed only on your watch list.
>
> I believe that encouraging people to collaborate better and giving
> users better idea of how articles are changing over time would help
> Wikipedia improve the quality of articles tremendously. Guess what?
> Interaction Design can bring a real difference again.

1) I would also like more than the latest edit to be shown. At least
"4 more edits" or similar if that helps the database load.
2) http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1492 "Multiple
watchlists" - 0 votes, 0 patches, 4 comments, 0 people on the CC list.
3) Could be done by looking at recent edits, but anyway I think this
is too database intensive and of limited usefulness.
4) I don't understand exactly what you mean...?


body:
I recieved a bounce of some sort, so sending again.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:02:07 -0800, Kesava Mallela <kesava at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought this would be a good forum to bring up some interaction
> design  problems with Wikipedia.
>
> These are some of the problems I found as an active contributor who
> also happens to be an interaction designer.
>
> 1.      Wikipedia shows only the last edit of an article in the watch list.
> This leaves the writer no clue of the edits that took place from
> his/her base lined version. (Base lined version will generally be the
> user's last edit on the article.). Some kind of visualization
> technique on all the edits only can give the writer a sense of the
> course taken by the article.
>
> 2.      Too many entries in watch list make it very difficult to clear them
> on a day. Some kind of prioritization needs to be done...like ignoring
> the minor edits...or flagging
> a.      the articles which are more prone to vandalism or
> b.      an article where some real interesting edits are happening or
> c.      articles on which some of your trusted buddies are working on...
>
> 3.      When you work on more than a few articles, it is very natural that
> you might find a same set of people working on those or similar
> articles. Wikipedia could encourage collaboration by allowing me to
> watch any articles edited by my buddies. (Of course, only if my buddy
> agrees to it, which I would think he would, for it is a chance for
> both of us to write a quality article.)
>
> 4.      When you start with an article, it is very probable that you would
> be interested in editing related articles. e.g.: If you start with
> Satyajit Ray, you might be interested in editing/reviewing the
> articles for Bengali cinema, or Mrinal Sen or Italian Neo-realist
> Cinema or the Apu Trilogy. One simple heuristic that could help meet
> the similar goals would be to allow the user to watch all the articles
> that link to a particular article or watch all the articles that have
> been manually grouped as categories. The feature "Related Changes"
> tries to do something similar, but lists the changes to the articles
> listed only on your watch list.
>
> I believe that encouraging people to collaborate better and giving
> users better idea of how articles are changing over time would help
> Wikipedia improve the quality of articles tremendously. Guess what?
> Interaction Design can bring a real difference again.

1) I would also like more than the latest edit to be shown. At least
"4 more edits" or similar if that helps the database load.
2) http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1492 "Multiple
watchlists" - 0 votes, 0 patches, 4 comments, 0 people on the CC list.
3) Could be done by looking at recent edits, but anyway I think this
is too database intensive and of limited usefulness.
4) I don't understand exactly what you mean...?


body:
Sounds good to me.

Arno

----- Original Message -----
From: "James D. Forrester" <james at jdforrester.org>
To: "'English Wikipedia'" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Don't push POV into the Wikipedia software and policies
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:33:30 -0000

>
> On Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:36 PM, Tony Sidaway
> <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
> > Stan Shebs said:
> >
> > > Even though we ourselves might not want a bowdlerized WP,
> > > it would be extraordinarily convenient to have some kind
> > > of subset quasi-mirror that advertised themselves as
> > > "child-safe".
> >
> > Absolutely.  This is what I've been proposing for some time.
>
> Indeed. It's called "Wikipedia 1.0", and /that/ can have filtering and
> whathaveyou as much as you want, with a "child-friendly" default (whatever
> that is). My, and I think perhaps quite a few others', main problem with the
> use of server-side filtering is that it evidently won't be 100% effective in
> a dynamic environment, and it only takes one slip-up - just one - to cause a
> PR problem of which it seems to be primarily developed with a mind to
> attempting to avoid. I would absolutely /love/ to participate in the
> Wikipedia 1.0 project, including very much content-categorisation.
>
> So how about it, everybody? ;-)
>
> Yours,
> --
> James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]
>
> Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
> IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

--
_______________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Testing if a page exists

references:
<cvnmue$e78$1@sea.gmane.org> <421F86E0.1060909@pobox.com>
	<cvog8m$o1s$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>>Jim Higson wrote:
>>>Oops, actually the Last-Modified header is always one hour (to the
>>>second) before Date if the article doesn't exist.
>>
>>I can't reproduce this; for pages that don't exist there is no
>>Last-Modified header at all. Can you show a sample request and returned
>>headers?

Seems to be a weird hack that was placed into the 1.4 release branch and
not the development branch.

I'm not entirely sure why it's there, but it's clearly wrong.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Jim Higson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Testing if a page exists

body:
How can I check if a page exists from a program?

I've tried doing a HEAD request to the page url with &action=raw, but that
returns 200 regardless if the page exists (bug or feature?). The only way I
can find at the moment is the Date and Last-Modified response headers are
the same if the article doesn't exist yet, but this seems a bit too
hackish.

Any suggestions?

Jim


body:
Jim Higson wrote:

> How can I check if a page exists from a program?
>
> I've tried doing a HEAD request to the page url with &action=raw, but that
> returns 200 regardless if the page exists (bug or feature?). The only way
> I can find at the moment is the Date and Last-Modified response headers
> are the same if the article doesn't exist yet, but this seems a bit too
> hackish.

Oops, actually the Last-Modified header is always one hour (to the second)
before Date if the article doesn't exist.

So testing for it just got hackier :)

--
Jim


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: SQL "diffs"

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:
> Tomer Chachamu wrote:
>
>>Well, there's exporting only articles with a cur version later than
>
>
> How much data (megabytes) are in the cur table for en.wikipedia, and
> how much are in the old table?  I understand these numbers grow all
> the time, but does anybody have rough estimates?  And perhaps some
> numbers for where we were a year ago?

Hello,

If I read mysql "Show table status" output correctly, for the english
wikipedia we have:

 Current revisions (cur): 3GB with a 560MB index.
 History (old): 80GB with a 3GB index.

You can get an idea of the progression rate by looking at erick statistics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/PlotDatabaseSize1.png

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
I don't think there is much capacity for such a wiki.

A Wiki on languages in general might generate a lot of articles, but a
Wiki about Cantonese specifically would never have much capacity to
grow.

If you truly think it's a good idea, or that it will somehow benefit
Cantonese and Cantonese speakers, or whatever, then I won't oppose
you.

Mark

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:00:43 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
<felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> On Thu, February 24, 2005 4:50 pm, Angela said:
> > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:43:03 -0700, Mark Williamson
> > <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Unfortunately the conlang part does not apply to Cantonese,
> >> although the miniwiki "scratchpad" may, it's not much different
> >> from what we have already at Meta.
> >
> > I only meant this for Quenya. I don't think there would be any
> > advantage to starting a Cantonese encyclopedia at Wikicities.
> >
> After browsing the wonderful Wikicities for some time, I have a
> different idea.  We do not need to be bound by the format of an
> encyclopedia.  Why not start a wiki about Cantonese, written
> mainly in standard English and/or standard Chinese?  I believe
> that wiki will be very useful, will attract contributors and
> readers, and should not be opposed.
>
> Since that will be a different project, I would like to do a
> quick popularity survey here.  Who will support that project?
> Who will contribute?
>
> If the Quenya people are still on the list, let me tell you that
> I would like to see a wiki about Quenya written in English too.
> Of course, there is no restriction on writing example articles
> in Quenya.
>
> Felix Wan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Testing if a page exists

body:
The 200 error is there to stop a certain vandalbot; it will not be
shown if you send the cookie of a logged-in user (the latter because
pywikipediabot got the 200 error as well).

Andre Engels

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:27:31 +0000, Jim Higson <jh at 333.org> wrote:
> How can I check if a page exists from a program?
>
> I've tried doing a HEAD request to the page url with &action=raw, but that
> returns 200 regardless if the page exists (bug or feature?). The only way I
> can find at the moment is the Date and Last-Modified response headers are
> the same if the article doesn't exist yet, but this seems a bit too
> hackish.
>
> Any suggestions?


body:
But how many possible pages could there be on such a Wiki?

You could divide it into pages for grammatical features, dialects, and
even phonology. But even then it would be really small.

And Sheng Jiong: Second-language learners rarely preserve endangered
languages. (Cantonese isn't exactly "endangered" though). The only
proven effective method to revive dying languages is the kohanga
reo/punana leo method - a pre-kindergarten immersion program, usually
followed by bilingual primary school and often secondary and
post-secondary school as well.

To maintain languages which seem to be on the downtrend but are still
taught to most children, the best strategy is to increase the wealth
of content available /in/ the language, rather than about it - the
people who are responsible the most for the maintenance of any
language are its own native speakers, and a speaker of a language has
no use for lessons in their language and seldom has use for
grammatical information in their language.

While for Cantonese, at present visual and auditory material is
definitely most helpful in maintenance (movies, songs, etc) there is
already a wealth of this and currently the area the language is most
lacking and which seems the most questionable part of its future and
legacy, is literature and other written material. There exists some,
but it is a very small amount and is NOT proportional to the visual
and auditory matierals.

I am surprised that you introduce a new reason for not creating a
Cantonese Wikipedia - it's "too big of a step" for the speakers of
this language. That is not a decision for you, a monolingual speaker
of Mandarin, to make!

Mark

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:02:11 +0800, Sheng Jiong <sheng.jiong at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now I think that is a much more sensible idea. An encyclopedia would
> be too big a step to take at the moment, but a wiki introducing
> Cantonese or other smaller languages would certainly help maintain and
> preserve the languages.
>
> I like the idea and I certainly support the project.
>
> formulax
>
> > After browsing the wonderful Wikicities for some time, I have a
> > different idea.  We do not need to be bound by the format of an
> > encyclopedia.  Why not start a wiki about Cantonese, written
> > mainly in standard English and/or standard Chinese?  I believe
> > that wiki will be very useful, will attract contributors and
> > readers, and should not be opposed.
> >
> > Since that will be a different project, I would like to do a
> > quick popularity survey here.  Who will support that project?
> > Who will contribute?
> >
> > If the Quenya people are still on the list, let me tell you that
> > I would like to see a wiki about Quenya written in English too.
> > Of course, there is no restriction on writing example articles
> > in Quenya.
> >
> > Felix Wan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Jim Higson wrote:
>> How can I check if a page exists from a program?
>
> You can hit Special:Export/Pagename; if the response contains no <page>
> elements, the page does not exist.
>
>> I've tried doing a HEAD request to the page url with &action=raw, but
>> that returns 200 regardless if the page exists (bug or feature?).
>
> You get a 200 because the wiki script exists, and hasn't yet been
> special cased to return a 404 response for pages which don't exist.
>
>  > The only way I
>> can find at the moment is the Date and Last-Modified response headers are
>> the same if the article doesn't exist yet, but this seems a bit too
>> hackish.
> [...]
>> Oops, actually the Last-Modified header is always one hour (to the
>> second) before Date if the article doesn't exist.
>
> I can't reproduce this; for pages that don't exist there is no
> Last-Modified header at all. Can you show a sample request and returned
> headers?

My 'application' uses XMLHTTP to make the request from a web page. Since
this can only be made from a page on the same domain I put up a quick
example:

http://81.5.150.113/raw-200

Visit this in a recent version of Mozilla or similar and it should spit the
headers to the page.

Jim


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] Music project

body:
I just thought I'd make a cheerful note that, as of today, my little
music expansion project
has accumulated 189 full length (copyleft) songs --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sound/list for the full list.
This includes 44 by Handel, 20 by Mozart, 18 by Beethoven, and 17 by Bach.

Also, I sent a permission request to a violin professor at Wichita State
U, and his response was the best I have *ever* recieved: "I am a big fan
of Wikipedia and am flattered and thrilled at this request. There are
currently no copyrights on my music at ampcast. If you have a
step-by-step process of how to best make these works available to you,
please send it to me. I will also look into this. " - so I expect to be
adding a fair amount more in the near future.

--Mark


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Testing if a page exists

references:
<cvnmue$e78$1@sea.gmane.org> <421F86E0.1060909@pobox.com>
	<cvog8m$o1s$1@sea.gmane.org> <421FCC50.6050107@pobox.com>

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>> Brion Vibber wrote:
>>>Jim Higson wrote:
>>>>Oops, actually the Last-Modified header is always one hour (to the
>>>>second) before Date if the article doesn't exist.
>>>
>>>I can't reproduce this; for pages that don't exist there is no
>>>Last-Modified header at all. Can you show a sample request and returned
>>>headers?
>
> Seems to be a weird hack that was placed into the 1.4 release branch and
> not the development branch.
>
> I'm not entirely sure why it's there, but it's clearly wrong.

I'm running 1.4b6

Not getting 404s is quite a problem with my project - I've mentioned before,
I'm trying to write a mediawiki presentation layer client-side
reimplementation, as an experiment into very low spec web servers. I'm
giving a presentation on Monday and will probably post a link to my work
shortly after.

As it stands, my software marks no links with class=new because all HEAD
requests are returning 200.

Jim


from_name: Pedro Fayolle

references:
<cvnmue$e78$1@sea.gmane.org> <421F86E0.1060909@pobox.com>
	<cvog8m$o1s$1@sea.gmane.org> <421FCC50.6050107@pobox.com>
	<cvpiam$o4j$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
> Not getting 404s is quite a problem with my project - I've mentioned before,
> I'm trying to write a mediawiki presentation layer client-side
> reimplementation, as an experiment into very low spec web servers. I'm
> giving a presentation on Monday and will probably post a link to my work
> shortly after.

Sounds a lot like an idea I had and was planning to implement in some
time. So is it pure JS with XMLHTTPRequest that you're using for this
presentation layer? I have a somehow working MediaWiki-to-HTML
converter written in JS which I'm using for client-side previews in
edit pages. Have you implemented something like this as well? If you
think it could be useful for your project please let me know. I'm very
intrigued about your work.

Pedro


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: Testing if a page exists

references:
<cvnmue$e78$1@sea.gmane.org> <421F86E0.1060909@pobox.com>
	<cvog8m$o1s$1@sea.gmane.org> <421FCC50.6050107@pobox.com>
	<cvpiam$o4j$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<594fceb50502260526579b5cf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cvptu2$j1r$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
> I think it is better demonstrated than explained, so I'll do my best to get
> a work in progress up for a few hours later today.
>
> Basically, it's a wikitext to XML recursive decent (almost proper) parser
> and XML to XHTML converter. From the XML I'm generating a DOM identical to
> the usual mediawiki one and using the existing stylesheets, so it mostly
> looks the same as the PHP interface.
>
> It doesn't just use XMLHTTP, each page has it's own URL, so the address bar
> changes and everything is bookmarkable. But the browser only receives a
> stub, and builds the page itself. The page is built bit-by-bit so the user
> can start reading the first part while the rest is being built.
>
> Editing has real-time previews, although I'm still ironing out a few bugs
> there. Previews are done without any HTTP requests etc.

So it's just like what I was planning to do, only done right :o)

I can't wait to see it working. BTW, can it be "plugged" into any
running MediaWiki, like, say, Wikipedia? Or does it need it's own
MediaWiki set up?

Wish you best of lucks on this, sounds truly amazing.

Pedro


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi,

Le Saturday 26 February 2005 00:00, Felix Wan a ?crit :
>
> After browsing the wonderful Wikicities for some time, I have a
> different idea.  We do not need to be bound by the format of an
> encyclopedia.  Why not start a wiki about Cantonese, written
> mainly in standard English and/or standard Chinese?  I believe
> that wiki will be very useful, will attract contributors and
> readers, and should not be opposed.

Such data will be welcome on Wikibooks I think.
And once written in English it could even be translated to other languages.
I?would like to see detailed teaching courses about every languages in
Wikibooks. I?myself started some pages for Hindi and Gujarati.

> Since that will be a different project, I would like to do a
> quick popularity survey here.  Who will support that project?
> Who will contribute?

Sorry I?won't be able to contribute, I?don't know a word of any Chinese
languages. ;o)

> If the Quenya people are still on the list, let me tell you that
> I would like to see a wiki about Quenya written in English too.
> Of course, there is no restriction on writing example articles
> in Quenya.

I am not sure if colangs will be accepted on Wikibooks, but asking there is
free.

> Felix Wan

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Sheng Jiong

body:
Now I think that is a much more sensible idea. An encyclopedia would
be too big a step to take at the moment, but a wiki introducing
Cantonese or other smaller languages would certainly help maintain and
preserve the languages.

I like the idea and I certainly support the project.

formulax

> After browsing the wonderful Wikicities for some time, I have a
> different idea.  We do not need to be bound by the format of an
> encyclopedia.  Why not start a wiki about Cantonese, written
> mainly in standard English and/or standard Chinese?  I believe
> that wiki will be very useful, will attract contributors and
> readers, and should not be opposed.
>
> Since that will be a different project, I would like to do a
> quick popularity survey here.  Who will support that project?
> Who will contribute?
>
> If the Quenya people are still on the list, let me tell you that
> I would like to see a wiki about Quenya written in English too.
> Of course, there is no restriction on writing example articles
> in Quenya.
>
> Felix Wan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews: New State of the Wiki report

body:
I've written a new, detailed report on the current state of the Wikinews
project. If you haven't kept up, or want to read my opinions on where we
are headed, the report is at:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:Eloquence/State_of_the_Wiki

Comments are welcome.

All best,

Erik


from_name: David Benbennick

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Proposed: one new link (diff-to-LVR) for watched
	pages in RecentChanges, Watchlist and PageHistory screens

body:
That sounds like a great idea.  "LVR" is probably fine as the link
text; it isn't obvious what it means, but you just click on it to find
out.

One issue: how would the watchlist store the "last visited revision"?
A revision doesn't get a version number until it isn't the most recent
one anymore.  A hackish way to work around that limitation is to have
the watchlist store the version number of the ''previous'' revision.
I don't know what to do if LVR is the first version of the page.

Another idea: have the link greyed out in the case where there's only
been one revision since LVR, since then it's just the same as "diff".

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:58:50 +0100, Thomas Gries <mail at tgries.de> wrote:
> It is, that I proposed to introduce *one new link* for lines showing
> watched pages, which are currently marked in bold. The current screens
> show the links (diff) (hist) and I propose to introduce a thrid one:
> (diff-to-LVR)  LVR = last visited revision.


body:
> > After browsing the wonderful Wikicities for some time, I have a
> > different idea.  We do not need to be bound by the format of an
> > encyclopedia.  Why not start a wiki about Cantonese, written
> > mainly in standard English and/or standard Chinese?  I believe
> > that wiki will be very useful, will attract contributors and
> > readers, and should not be opposed.
>
> Felix, I think it's an excellent idea. In fact I think it's a nice fit
> for what folks might be searching for in Cantonese - a cultural
> literacy guide, or something more freeform to capture the flavor and
> quirkiness of the language as a spoken, adaptive language. I can
> imagine whole sections on film, Cantopop, slang, literature and
> colloquialisms/differences in Cantonese found in HK, Guangdong,
> Southeast Asia, North America, etc.

"What folks might be searching for in Cantonese" - so here we're
talking about the needs of non-Cantonese speakers who would like to
learn more about Cantonese, rather than Cantonese speakers who would
like to learn more about other subjects?

> > Since that will be a different project, I would like to do a
> > quick popularity survey here.  Who will support that project?
> > Who will contribute?
>
> I think it would be a much more exciting project to Cantonese speakers
> on the 'net if it was more fun and able to morph to the interests of
> the community, rather than what would be dictated by a formal
> encyclopedia.

"The interests of the community" -- I think that in fact the number of
people who will want to write in English and Baihua about such a topic
spectrum as Cantonese (even if we include culture as you suggest) will
be smaller than that of people who would like to write /in/ Cantonese
about anything at all.

The great thing about an encyclopaedia is that it fits perfectly with
all the interests of the community. You can write about whatever your
area of interest is, and it still fits in. There is no room in a
CantoPedia for an article about "Nine Inch Nails" or Germany (except
where Cantonese and Germany intersect), while in a Cantonese-medium
general encyclopaedia there is room for both. Thus, the NIN fan or the
German culture buff will be limited to writing about Cantonese, a
topic they most likely are not at all interested in, when in a general
encyclopaedia they would be able to write, in their mother tongue,
about these topics which interest them but aren't exactly
"Cantonese-related".

In addition, most of the content suggested could already fit into
Wikipedia in any language very very well, with some possible parts (ie
lessons in Cantonese language) would fit better in Wikibooks.

So you said you think it will be a "much more exciting project to
Cantonese speakers on the 'net". What percentage of these people care
at all about Cantonese pop culture? Many of them, yes, but a great
deal of them are probably more concerned about business, daily life,
and that sort of thing. Even of those who ARE interested, how many of
them are interested beyond just "liking movies" or "listening to Lau
Tak Wah Andy"?

The thing is, a CantoPedia would be much more restrictive than a
general encyclopaedia which is written in Cantonese.

So far I have heard from you specifically 2 concerns that I can remember:

1) a Cantonese-version Wikipedia will split resources from the 'small'
zh community
- Response: Now, zh.wikipedia has over 20k articles. This isn't
exactly "small" anymore, although it's still smaller than, say, en or
ja. How many of the contributors speak Cantonese at all? I assume it
is a significant, but still not even 1/4, minority. How many of these
Cantonese-speakers would actually contribute to a Cantonese-version
Wikipedia INSTEAD of zh? That must be a much smaller percentage - this
would start as a fringe project, perhaps with most Cantonese speakers
at zh: at least popping in to read it sometimes, but undoubtedly it
would take a while to gain a stronghold where droves of people would
actually leave zh: for a Cantonese-version Wikipedia.
2) a Cantonese-version Wikipedia won't be able to morph to the
interests of the community as well as a CantoPedia
- (responded to already above)

This is not to say I think that the Cantonese-language Wikipedia must
be created instantly, but rather that I haven't seen any new arguments
from you or actual responses that weren't just repeating yourself from
before. So I have summed it up here, and I want to know: do you have
anything more you would like to say?

Mark


from_name: Kiss All

subject: [Foundation-l] Do we have server monitors for wikipedia machines?

body:
I consistently have trouble to access http://en.wikipedia.org today,
though I can slowly access http://wikipedia.org/ and
http://zh.wikipedia.org/. What is the problem?

Do we have server monitors for those machines? If not, I suggest to
use some third party service to monitor the server's uptime and
performance, like  http://www.siteuptime.com or
http://www.elkmonitor.com/. I guess there are some free service
provider available.

We need to insure the uptime for major server, otherwise, we are going
to lose users.
--
Be good....


subject: [Wikitech-l] Do we have server monitors for wikipedia machines?


references:
<cvnmue$e78$1@sea.gmane.org> <421F86E0.1060909@pobox.com>
	<cvog8m$o1s$1@sea.gmane.org> <421FCC50.6050107@pobox.com>
	<cvpiam$o4j$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<594fceb50502260526579b5cf7@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Pedro Fayolle wrote:

>> Not getting 404s is quite a problem with my project - I've mentioned
>> before, I'm trying to write a mediawiki presentation layer client-side
>> reimplementation, as an experiment into very low spec web servers. I'm
>> giving a presentation on Monday and will probably post a link to my work
>> shortly after.
>
> Sounds a lot like an idea I had and was planning to implement in some
> time. So is it pure JS with XMLHTTPRequest that you're using for this
> presentation layer? I have a somehow working MediaWiki-to-HTML
> converter written in JS which I'm using for client-side previews in
> edit pages. Have you implemented something like this as well? If you
> think it could be useful for your project please let me know. I'm very
> intrigued about your work.

I think it is better demonstrated than explained, so I'll do my best to get
a work in progress up for a few hours later today.

Basically, it's a wikitext to XML recursive decent (almost proper) parser
and XML to XHTML converter. From the XML I'm generating a DOM identical to
the usual mediawiki one and using the existing stylesheets, so it mostly
looks the same as the PHP interface.

It doesn't just use XMLHTTP, each page has it's own URL, so the address bar
changes and everything is bookmarkable. But the browser only receives a
stub, and builds the page itself. The page is built bit-by-bit so the user
can start reading the first part while the rest is being built.

Editing has real-time previews, although I'm still ironing out a few bugs
there. Previews are done without any HTTP requests etc.

--
Jim


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Apache rewrite rule missing

body:
Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> it seems that after the blackout an Apache rewrite rule that allowed
> "short URLs" like this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/USA
>
> instead of
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA
>
> is now missing. Or maybe it depends on which particular Apache server you
> hit. The first URL gives a 404.

There was never an Apache rewrite rule for this. Erik had hacked it into
the 404 error response page.

I've taken it out for the moment as a) like adding random domain names,
it's a really bad idea to encourage a dependency on inherently unstable
URLs, and b) there was an infinite looping problem.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
David Benbennick wrote:
> That sounds like a great idea.  "LVR" is probably fine as the link
> text; it isn't obvious what it means, but you just click on it to find
> out.

"LVR" is incomprehensible.

> One issue: how would the watchlist store the "last visited revision"?
> A revision doesn't get a version number until it isn't the most recent
> one anymore.

You might want to brush up on the development branch; every revision now
gets a permanent version number when it's created.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] problems in accessing it.wiktionary. org

body:
Sabine Cretella wrote:
> Hi, attempting to access it.wiktionary.org where I am admin I receive
> the note: The connection was refused  when attempting  to contact
> it.wiktionary.org.
>
> Trying to access other wikimedia sites including en.wiktionary. org,
> scn, nl etc. I don't have problems - so what could be the problem?

Work is still ongoing on fixing some machines from Monday's outage and
setting up the new machines we got last week.

When you connect to one of our servers, you get a list of multiple IP
addresses to choose from; the client software attempts to connect to one
of them. If that one is not responding, but all the others are, you may
see this behavior.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: Re: Testing if a page exists

references:
<cvnmue$e78$1@sea.gmane.org> <421F86E0.1060909@pobox.com>
	<cvog8m$o1s$1@sea.gmane.org> <421FCC50.6050107@pobox.com>
	<cvpiam$o4j$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<594fceb50502260526579b5cf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<cvptu2$j1r$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<594fceb505022605551039a192@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Pedro Fayolle wrote:

>> I think it is better demonstrated than explained, so I'll do my best to
>> get a work in progress up for a few hours later today.
>>
>> Basically, it's a wikitext to XML recursive decent (almost proper) parser
>> and XML to XHTML converter. From the XML I'm generating a DOM identical
>> to the usual mediawiki one and using the existing stylesheets, so it
>> mostly looks the same as the PHP interface.
>>
>> It doesn't just use XMLHTTP, each page has it's own URL, so the address
>> bar changes and everything is bookmarkable. But the browser only receives
>> a stub, and builds the page itself. The page is built bit-by-bit so the
>> user can start reading the first part while the rest is being built.
>>
>> Editing has real-time previews, although I'm still ironing out a few bugs
>> there. Previews are done without any HTTP requests etc.
>
> So it's just like what I was planning to do, only done right :o)
>
> I can't wait to see it working. BTW, can it be "plugged" into any
> running MediaWiki, like, say, Wikipedia? Or does it need it's own
> MediaWiki set up?

Sort of. It runs on top of a mediawiki, but because of the XMLHTTP security
model it has to be on the same domain as the wiki, so I can't just put it
up on my box as a gateway to wikipedia. I wouldn't let it make edits to
wikipedia until it has proved stable anyway, but it would have been nice if
I could have done a read-only gateway.

At this point I'm not aiming to roll it out on a major wiki, there's too
much that you can't do from the client side (most the special pages for a
start). That situation might change but it would require quite a lot of
work to make the server return unpresented special pages. The aim is to
demonstrate serving of dynamic services from very low spec web servers,
because almost everything is static.

> Wish you best of lucks on this, sounds truly amazing.
>
> Pedro


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikipedia-l] problems in accessing it.wiktionary. org

body:
Hi, attempting to access it.wiktionary.org where I am admin I receive
the note: The connection was refused  when attempting  to contact
it.wiktionary.org.

 Trying to access other wikimedia sites including en.wiktionary. org,
scn, nl etc. I don't have problems - so what could be the problem?

Thanks for any hint!

Ciao, Sabine


subject: [Wikitech-l] problems in accessing it.wiktionary. org


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 8 Fund Drive Report

body:
On Day 8 (Friday 25 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not
available in UTC) we made $3,735.10 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (completed
payments only; no updates available for other sources at this time).

This is a decrease of 27.13% from Day 7 and represents 6.71% of total funds
collected so far ($55,705.64 ; only counting full days) and 4.98% of our goal
($75,000). At the end of Day 8 we had reached 74.27% of our goal.

For information on our recent server issues see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash

Day  8			        Day 7 comparison
Breakdown:
PayPal		USD equiv	USD equiv	%change
AUD	  94.09	    $74.38	   $60.08	 23.80%
CAD 	 221.44	   $179.43	  $259.89	-30.96%
EUR 	 729.52	   $953.63	$1,366.56	-30.22%
GBP 	 123.32	   $234.04	  $670.34	-65.09%
JPY	3780	    $35.83	   $99.10	-63.85%
USD	2257.79	 $2,257.79	$2,670.05	-15.44%
PayPal total:	 $3,735.10	$5,126.02	-27.13%

MoneyBookers	no data	           $0.00	  0.00%
Mail/Post	no data	         $295.00	-100.00%

	TOTAL	$3,735.10	$5,126.02	 -27.13%

Grand totals so far (only counting complete days)

PayPal	       USD equiv	%GrandTotal
AUD	 1427.80    $1,128.68	 2.03%
CAD 	 2688.03    $2,178.11	 3.91%
EUR 	14262.17   $18,643.51	33.47%
GBP 	2874.95	    $5,456.08	 9.79%
JPY	137913	    $1,307.28	 2.35%
USD	26195.30   $26,195.30	47.02%
PayPal total:	   $54,908.95

Moneybookers:  	     $426.69	 0.77%
Mail/Post	     $370.00	 0.66%

GRAND TOTAL	  $55,705.64	100.00%

% toward goal       74.27%

For the most recent grand total and other details visit
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1

Some selected comments from Day 8:
See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_8

"You guys are fantastic! Keep up the good work" by World of Worlds

"Wikipedia is a great info source, but it needs more bandwidth!" by David
Chipman

"A great site! My kids love it and use it often" by Anonymous

"Pour un savoir commun, libre et gratuit." by Anonymous

"I am an information addict because of you wikipedia. I love you." by Anonymous

"La informacion quiere ser libre" by Paredes Olay Francisco Javier

"Small price to pay to keep knowledge free... and reduce my cynicism!" by
Anonymous

"I am so grateful for your wonderful site." by Anonymous

"Wikimedia is doing GREAT things, I'm proud to support them." by Jeff Moats

"weiter so !" by Anonymous

"I really enjoy using your site. As an educator it is a excellent resource and
use it all the time." by Howard Sims

"We love Wikipedia! Thank you for making knowledge so accessible!" by John Noe

"You are the best!" by Rodrigo Ventura

"vive le libre =)" by Le bisou

Some of my favorites:

"Without doubt this is one of the few sites that make the internet worthwhile."
by Nicholas Penney

"Wikimedia is the epitome of what the Internet should be: For the public, By
the public." by Ezra Pincus-Roth

"Wikipedia is the best source of quality information I have ever found in my
extensive use of the Internet. My gratitude to everyone's contributions to the
content that makes this a wonderful success." by Anonymous

"you keep it free and unbiased and i'll be contributing double every drive." by
Anonymous

"This is the future." by David Altman

"Go baby go, go!" by Anonymous

Daniel Mayer,
Wikimedia CFO

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 8 Fund Drive Report


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Day 8 Fund Drive Report


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:02:07 -0800, Kesava Mallela <kesava at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1.      Wikipedia shows only the last edit of an article in the watch list.
> This leaves the writer no clue of the edits that took place from
> his/her base lined version. (Base lined version will generally be the
> user's last edit on the article.). Some kind of visualization
> technique on all the edits only can give the writer a sense of the
> course taken by the article.

I believe work related to the "e-notif" patch has implemented a link
which shows the difference between the current version and the version
that you last viewed, which goes some way towards this. That doesn't,
of course, give you the list of *summaries* for those edits, but you
can get that out of the page history easily enough anyway, I guess.

As for visualising a whole sequence of edits, that's certainly a
laudable aim, but in practice it's not so easy. For the moment, you
can page through the diffs (with the new "next" and "previous" links).
Some people have suggested a "blame" feature (like CVS repositories
provide) which shows in which edit each part of an article was
introduced; but it has been pointed out that unlike source code,
encyclopedia articles [or other content likely to be contained in a
MediaWiki] doesn't divide neatly into lines, so the resulting display
would be that much coarser, and thus less useful - I might correct one
typo, and the whole paragraph would end up annotated as my edit. And
then there was IBM's "history flow" experiment
[http://www.research.ibm.com/history/index.htm] which is certainly
fascinating, but whether or not it can be put to generic and practical
use I'm not sure...

Meanwhile, some overall container which could provide standard
features and interface to Special:Recentchanges,
Special:Recentchangeslinked and Special:Watchlist would certainly be
nice - for instance, the global recent changes is filterable and has
collapsible groupings for multiple edits to the same article.
Obviously, some things are harder in the database than others, but it
would certainly be useful for all three pages to have this and more...

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


list: textbook-l

from_name: kelvSYC

subject: [Textbook-l] Fair Use Images?

body:
What kinds of legal complications would I have to go over if I were to
add stuff under "fair use" policy, such as "flavor text" or
screenshots?

My intention (and this is a long term project - there are lots of
cards) is to use graphics for marking trading card actions in the
Pok?mon Trading Card Game wikibook (eg. "{W} Surf (30)" would have the
game's water symbol where "{W}" is).


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
Hello,
it seems that after the blackout an Apache rewrite rule that allowed
"short URLs" like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/USA

instead of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA

is now missing. Or maybe it depends on which particular Apache server you
hit. The first URL gives a 404.

Alfio


from_name: Thomas Gries

body:
This mail is sent only for information
Rowan Collins schrieb:

>I believe work related to the "e-notif" patch has implemented a link
>which shows the difference between the current version and the version
>that you last viewed, which goes some way towards this. That doesn't,
>of course, give you the list of *summaries* for those edits, but you
>can get that out of the page history easily enough anyway, I guess.
>
Rowan, your statement is *correct*:
users who use a medawiki version 1.3.7, 1.3.10., 1.3.11 or CVS HEAD
(1.5) with the ENotif patch receive in their notification emails always
a direct link to the "diff-between-current-and-last-visited-revision".
This shows the directly the (cumulated) difference, when you click - and
can be days or weeks later than the change, which triggered the mail.

Thus, clicking shows the full difference, no matter how late you visit
the diff link which was mailed to you.

My personal version of CVS HEAD shows also "diff-to-lvr" links on the
recent changes views and in the watchlist view - in addition to the
"(hist) (diff)" links: each bolded (=watched) pagename has such a third
link "(diff-to-lvr)", which I find very convenient.

Again: it is important to understand, that the described "lvr" links are
currently only mailed in the ENotif mail (and shown in my working
version for HEAD) for one's watched pages !

Tom
ENotif Screenshots, downloads http://meta.wikipedia.org/Enotif and
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=536 (For pages on
watchlist save last seen version number) and
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603 (delete/undelete cycle
doesn't preserce old_id)


from_name: Andrew Lih

body:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:00:43 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
<felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> After browsing the wonderful Wikicities for some time, I have a
> different idea.  We do not need to be bound by the format of an
> encyclopedia.  Why not start a wiki about Cantonese, written
> mainly in standard English and/or standard Chinese?  I believe
> that wiki will be very useful, will attract contributors and
> readers, and should not be opposed.

Felix, I think it's an excellent idea. In fact I think it's a nice fit
for what folks might be searching for in Cantonese - a cultural
literacy guide, or something more freeform to capture the flavor and
quirkiness of the language as a spoken, adaptive language. I can
imagine whole sections on film, Cantopop, slang, literature and
colloquialisms/differences in Cantonese found in HK, Guangdong,
Southeast Asia, North America, etc.

> Since that will be a different project, I would like to do a
> quick popularity survey here.  Who will support that project?
> Who will contribute?

I think it would be a much more exciting project to Cantonese speakers
on the 'net if it was more fun and able to morph to the interests of
the community, rather than what would be dictated by a formal
encyclopedia.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Proposed: one new link (diff-to-LVR) for watched pages
 in RecentChanges, Watchlist and PageHistory screens

body:
Hi all,

I have a question to all recipients regarding the user interface (screen
layout) of Recent Changes and Watchlist pages (perhaps also PageHistory).

It is, that I proposed to introduce *one new link* for lines showing
watched pages, which are currently marked in bold. The current screens
show the links (diff) (hist) and I propose to introduce a thrid one:
(diff-to-LVR)  LVR = last visited revision.

Wish to receive your proposals for a changed screen layout ......

        - how would *you* arrange the screens
        - proposal for the short text for such a link ? (diff-to-LVR) is
not neat enough

Tom
http://meta.wikipedia.org/Enotif
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=536 (For pages on
watchlist save last seen version number) and
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603 (delete/undelete cycle
doesn't preserce old_id)


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Brion Vibber schrieb:
>> I've taken it out for the moment as a) like adding random domain names,
>> it's a really bad idea to encourage a dependency on inherently unstable
>> URLs, and b) there was an infinite looping problem.
>
> a) I don't see why these URLs should be, by necessity, inherently
> unstable. Unlike domain names, they don't require registration, they're
> purely software.

As we add things on the servers or to the software, portions of the URL
space become unusable for redirection because there really are files there.

> b) is fixed in the version on the server, to my knowledge. Am I missing
> something?

Well, it's fixed now that I've had a chance to hack at it. The tests for
URL regions where actual files are known to exist (which would also have
prevented the infinite redirect loop) were *all* wrongly written and
failed on the actual strings tested. (The tests required the path not to
have a '/' at the start, but it always does.)

> I understand that it's annoying to track down a weird bug like this in
> an obscure script, but I don't think that is sufficient reason to turn
> off the short URLs completely.

For the meantime I've got it using a timed refresh plus a clickable
link. Still relatively convenient for the lazy, without lulling people
into a false sense of security thinking it's a legit URL they should be
able use, link, or advertise like here:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home&diff=2048&oldid=1705

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject:
[Wikitech-l] editpage.php "page" "text" "summary" (prepends or
	appends a text to a page)

body:
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:23:15 +0100, Thomas Gries <mail at tgries.de> wrote:
> Jakob has asked me to write a tiny script, which can be called from the
> commandline to add (or to prepend) an arbitrary text to a wiki page. The
> script is for mediawiki 1.3.11 (which uses wpEditToken instead of
> wpEdittime to detect edit collisions)
>
> Usage:
> php editpage.php "Pagename" "A new text, created by ~~~~" "edit summary,
> optional"

Oh, if it will work on the English Wikipedia, please, to me!

(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Bots#Bot_for_removing_spaces_before_commas
which is also http://snipurl.com/d2vd if you have problems)

I'm planning to program the bot tomorrow. If I don't get approval, I
will just run it every minute for an hour or so. Just to test. :)


subject:
[Wikitech-l] editpage.php "page" "text" "summary" (prepends or
 appends a text to a page)

body:
Jakob has asked me to write a tiny script, which can be called from the
commandline to add (or to prepend) an arbitrary text to a wiki page. The
script is for mediawiki 1.3.11 (which uses wpEditToken instead of
wpEdittime to detect edit collisions)

Usage:
php editpage.php "Pagename" "A new text, created by ~~~~" "edit summary,
optional"

Code on request
Tom


body:
Brion Vibber schrieb:

> I've taken it out for the moment as a) like adding random domain names,
> it's a really bad idea to encourage a dependency on inherently unstable
> URLs, and b) there was an infinite looping problem.

a) I don't see why these URLs should be, by necessity, inherently
unstable. Unlike domain names, they don't require registration, they're
purely software. They've been in use for a few months now without any
issues besides the Apache problem you discovered. Where is the high
maintenance requirement? In my opinion, it's bad to keep them disabled
after they've been in use for several months already. This discussion,
if it needs to take place, should have taken place when the short URLs
were first introduced.

b) is fixed in the version on the server, to my knowledge. Am I missing
something?

I understand that it's annoying to track down a weird bug like this in
an obscure script, but I don't think that is sufficient reason to turn
off the short URLs completely.

Peace,

Erik


from_name: Jim Higson

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Jim Higson wrote:
>> How can I check if a page exists from a program?
>
> You can hit Special:Export/Pagename; if the response contains no <page>
> elements, the page does not exist.

Do you know any way that does not involve getting the whole article text?

I've looked at sending HEAD requests to Specail:Export and turned up some
unexpected behaviour. Like action=raw, it always returns 200, but for
articles with a space in the name you can tell if it is new because
Content-Length is always 100.

For articles without a space in the name Specail:Export export never sends
Content-Length to HEADs :)

Of course, this isn't reliable at all. Is there any chance action=raw could
be made to return 404, or Content-Length: 0 for non-existing articles?

--
Jim


body:
Ben Brockert wrote:
> I like the current setup on Meta (why is it different than the setup on
> en?);

It's not. You might have one account configured with "enhanced recent
changes display" and the other not?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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references:
<cvnmue$e78$1@sea.gmane.org> <421F86E0.1060909@pobox.com>
	<cvr6e0$gcc$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Jim Higson wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> Jim Higson wrote:
>>> How can I check if a page exists from a program?
>>
>> You can hit Special:Export/Pagename; if the response contains no <page>
>> elements, the page does not exist.
>
> Do you know any way that does not involve getting the whole article text?
>
> I've looked at sending HEAD requests to Specail:Export and turned up some
> unexpected behaviour. Like action=raw, it always returns 200, but for
> articles with a space in the name you can tell if it is new because
> Content-Length is always 100.
>
> For articles without a space in the name Specail:Export export never sends
> Content-Length to HEADs :)
>
> Of course, this isn't reliable at all. Is there any chance action=raw
> could be made to return 404, or Content-Length: 0 for non-existing
> articles?

Little update (very hackish!)

You can force the wikimedia server to return the Content-Length field by
inserting a space into the URL, for example:

http://localhost/wiki/index.php/Special:Export/%20dancing
200
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:15:40 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.51 (Fedora)
X-Powered-By: PHP/4.3.10
Content-Encoding: gzip
Vary: Accept-Encoding
Content-Length: 347
Connection: close
Content-Type: application/xml; charset=utf-8

This at least gives a consistant (at least until this oddness is fixed) way
to tell if a page exits, so I know to colour my links red or blue.

Jim


from_name: Rhobite

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Differences between POV forks and legitimate criticism
	articles

body:
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 03:35:35 +0100, Andries Krugers Dagneaux
<andrieskd at chello.nl> wrote:
> [[User:Pjacobi]] and I [[user:Andries]] agree that we need guidelines
> about what Pjacobi calls "POV forks".

I think the important difference is that a "controversy" article is a
vertical split, but a POV fork attempts to compete with an existing
article horizontally. Controversy articles move lengthy details out of
the main article, but POV forks present alternate versions of the
subject. In my mind, that's the main difference. Duplication of
coverage is the reason we shouldn't allow POV fork articles.

Rhobite


subject: [Wikitech-l] Early preview of client-side wiki presentation

body:
Since I'm done hacking for today, thought I'd demo what I've been working
on. I'll leave this up for a while:

http://81.5.150.113/wysi/

A lot of things are disabled for now, and the speed to first load can
probably be improved by at least 80%, but it is presenting a dynamic
interface without any server-side page generation. The parser is a more
complete than the presenter, so I've dumped the parse trees to the bottom
of the pages.

Anyway, I should have edits and real-time previews working soon. For now
this is mostly just an experiment to see what is possible. It's Mozilla
only too, but there's no reason it couldn't be made to work in any browser
that supports XMLHTTP. Especially interesting is viewing these pages
generates virtually no server-side CPU load.

(the normal interface is at http://81.5.150.113/wiki)

Comments welcome :)
--
Jim


from_name: Kate Turner

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Testing if a page exists

references:
<cvnmue$e78$1@sea.gmane.org> <421F86E0.1060909@pobox.com>
	<cvr6e0$gcc$1@sea.gmane.org> <cvr6tk$h6h$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Jim Higson wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> This at least gives a consistant (at least until this oddness is fixed)
> way to tell if a page exits, so I know to colour my links red or blue.

are you going to make an http request for every link in the page?

> Jim

kate.


from_name: Ben Brockert

body:
On Saturday, February 26, 2005, at 01:58  PM, Thomas Gries wrote:
> Wish to receive your proposals for a changed screen layout ......
>
>        - how would *you* arrange the screens
>        - proposal for the short text for such a link ? (diff-to-LVR)
> is not neat enough

I like the current setup on Meta (why is it different than the setup on
en?); this link could be added in before the other two:
* (chng) (diff) (hist) . . m [[page name]]; ti:me . . [[User:]] ([[User
talk:]]) (edit summary)

I don't think it really matters what the short text is. Other than the
nipple, no interface is intuitive; "incomprehensible acronym" or not,
editors will learn what it does by clicking the link, as they have done
for every other feature of MediaWiki. A four character acronym would be
nice just for symmetry, that's why I chose "chng".

How will this affect server performance? My watchlist is refreshed half
a dozen times on a day that I'm not working on Wikipedia, ten times as
often on a day that I am. Even if you only store the read state for
items in the watchlist, and not all visited pages, that's still over
500 articles (for me).

Those reservations aside, I am in favor of this feature, especially if
it is opt-in by the users. I read a forum that stores read states on
every thread, and it makes a world of difference in usability.

Ben


body:
On Sunday, February 27, 2005, at 03:15  AM, Brion Vibber wrote:
> It's not. You might have one account configured with "enhanced recent
> changes display" and the other not?

On the nose, Brion. The next question is then: would it be possible to
separate the style of Special:Recentchanges and Special:Watchlist?
Using enhanced recent changes improves Recentchanges but doesn't help
the watchlist.

Ben