from_name: Dori

subject: [Foundation-l] The use of digital material

body:
On 9/1/05, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> resolved before this actually happens. One thing that is of importance
> to IISG is that the material that they make available, will get a much
> improved exposure to the exposure that it gets through their own
> website. There are several ways in which we can improve exposure; using
> the material in our Wikipedia and other projects is one and localising
> the the Meta data is another way of making this happen. Even when we
> have done the things that improve the exposure, it is important that we
> are able to quantify the usage material has.

I don't like any conditions other than GFDL/GFDL-compatible licensing.
The content is the content on Wikipedia no matter where it came from,
and I don't think they should receive any special treatment.
Additionally, what do we do about reuse? What if we can't turn on
counters due to performance reasons? I don't like shackles added to
the foundation, even if they're made out of paper.

Dori


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Invalid titles

body:
I've run a process to find pages in the database with
invalid/inaccessible titles and rename them. The ones with invalid
characters or that conflicted with existing normalized forms have had
'Broken/' prefixed to their names, and are listed at
[[Special:Prefixindex/Broken/]] on each wiki.

These are mostly leftover from old software bugs since fixed, and a lot
of them are redirects created by page moves to corrected titles and can
now be discarded.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Spell checking in MediaWiki

body:
Heiko Evermann wrote:

>Hi Gerard,
>
>
>>The duplication of words that are spelled the same in different dialects
>>or orthographies is inherent in the database design. This is essential
>>if you want to have definitions and etymology in these dialects or
>>orthographies. If you are willing to accept that definitions and
>>etymology can be spelled in orthographies other than Sass there could be
>>a solution but as the nds.wikipedia also has to standardise on Sass, I
>>think this is a rather unlikely scenario.
>>
>>
>Definition and etymology would be the same. Your approach would be a
>duplication of efforts. It would be sufficient to allow one entry to belong
>to several orthographis, as in  1:n instead of 1:1. So this is not inherent
>in the database design. It is the design bug that I complain about for some
>time.
>1:n would allow us to enter the data the way we think appropriate. And it
>still leaves us the opportunity to add individual entries when other users
>really think that explanations must also be duplicated along the
>orthographies (which I really doubt). So they can, if they want to, but they
>are not forced.
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Heiko
>
Hoi,
As you want your definitions and etymology in Sass, these defintions are
not the same as the ones in an other orthography. It is therefore not a
duplication of efforts, it is the consequence of things in Sass. You
cannot both insist on Sass and have it apply for other orthographies or
dialects as well. You CAN state that words written the same way or in a
different way mean the same thing and if people have selected Sass as an
orthography they are interested in, they may see that it has an
etymology or a definition.

I am interested in who your "we" is. I did recently discuss this design
in a four hour session with language engineers, I discussed the German /
Dutch / English - American / Lower Saxon languages and they agreed with
me that this design allows for other purposes than just lexicon lookup.
I have discussed the design with many people and so far the only "we"
who asks for "this" is you.

What you call a design bug is in actual fact a design feature.  One
point that you are missing is that the meaning of a word spelled the
same between dialects may be different. This is exactly one reason why
this duplication is needed. The same is true for etymology; when a word
is used for a first time in THAT orthography or dialect may be different
as well, it may arrive from another dialect and not from another language..

Thanks,
    GerardM


list: wikien-l

from_name: David Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocked IP Address 204.187.140.114

body:
The IP address above that you have blocked is that of a public school
board consisting of 91 schools.
Could an administrator please contact me with respect to the numerous
reported deletions.
I would like to follow up on the content that was posted by  one or more
of our students.

Dave Smith
Technical Application Support Specialist - Classroom Support
742 9773 ext 2372


from_name: Heinz

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Demis maps (WMS-compliant servers / fuzzy /
	complicated copyright restrictions.)

body:
I think the UMN Mapserver (http://mapserver.gis.umn.edu ) would be a good
choice in terms of quality and copyright (its open source). Have a look on
the sample page (http://mapserver.gis.umn.edu/gallery.html) .

"Lars Aronsson" <lars at aronsson.se> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:Pine.LNX.4.61.0508310333360.26356 at sara.aronsson.se...
>
> The company Demis in the Netherlands sells software for a map
> server and also runs a demo on their own site.  The map data for
> this demo have been collected from public domain sources, and the
> company doesn't claim any copyright for the generated maps.  The
> maps are not the very best, but good enough for many purposes.
> Some maps of this origin are already at Wikimedia Commons, e.g.
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Map-Hrusica-in-contex--raw.png
> and have been used for further processing, e.g.
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:LocationArno.PNG
>
> I developed a simple tool that makes it easier to find the right
> map, and then I uploaded two dozens of them to
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Public_domain_maps_from_demis.nl
>
> However, the people at Demis are concerned about a "Slashdot
> effect" that might overburden their map server if everybody starts
> to use this tool.  They would prefer if somebody could buy the
> Demis software and run their own server.  Unfortunately, the map
> server only runs on Microsoft Windows.
>
> Does anybody have a Demis server running already, that I can use
> for my tool?  There are many WMS-compliant servers out there, but
> most have very fuzzy or complicated copyright restrictions.
>
>
> --
>   Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
>   Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Demis maps(futuristic ideas?)

body:
> "Lars Aronsson" <lars at aronsson.se> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:Pine.LNX.4.61.0508312241380.3439 at sara.aronsson.se...
> Heinz-Josef L?cking wrote:
> Have also a look on
> http://www.giswiki.de/index.php/QuickWMS-Extension. It's an
> extension for mediawiki that integrates web map services

> That sounds good, but who runs the WMS server and who owns the
> data?  Can the sources handle (1) Wikimedia's strict freedom
> requirement and (2) the Slashdot effect on their servers?

There must be a seperation between WMS servers and geodata
The Demis-maps e.g. are as free as the underlying geodata.
The demis-WMS server on the other side is not free software.
But the data could also be provided by a free WMS-Server. e.g. UMN-Mapserver
That server should be run, where the Wikipedias are running

But the biggest problem are neither free WMS-Servers or free geodata.
The problem is to get people doing the job

> There are many such ideas in the [[category:Wikimaps]] on meta.
> But we have to make a difference between futuristic ideas and
> things that work here and now.  For example, today I inserted maps
> in the Russian Wikipedia's article on lake Onega and in the Danish
> Wikipedia's article on island Lolland.  These languages have
> 30,000 articles each, and still they don't have maps for some of
> the most central parts of their own countries.  I look forward to
> your SVG/JAVAX/WMS real time updated maps in 2007, with names in
> the right language fetched from Ultimate Wiktionary.  But right
> now this project needs some simple free maps to fill in the most
> embarrasing blanks.  Within one year, Danish and Russian should
> have 100,000 articles (assuming an annual growth factor of 3).
> Many of these will be written by volunteers who get inspiration
> from the beautiful maps.

Internationalisatzion of names can easy be done by creating map-texts (in
their own language)  from a database.
This allready a work in progress.
* http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia/extensions/gis/
* http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gis
* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProjekt_Georeferenzierung
* http://kvaleberg.com/extensions/mapsources/

The beautyful maps allready existing in the wikipedias show on one side a
lot of work by the editors.
On the other side maps have often to be created again and again.
Another problem is the reduction of information of a map and that these maps
can't easly be changed by other editors cause they are raster maps.

[...]

>
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B6%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BE
> http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolland

> These maps are green-and-blue without names.  This is when you
> download the PNG image from Commons and start GIMP to add names
> and features in your favorite language.

> --
>   Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
>   Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

Heinz  ( http://www.giswiki.de )


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Exercises in social engineering

body:
> While personally I'm quick to recognize the attempted humor and shake off
> almost all alleged threats, I'd like to point out that threats far vaguer
> than this resulted in the permanent block of another user recently that
> was also thoroughly discussed on this mailing list.
>
> Call me a killjoy if you must, but this is simply inappropriate.

I agree with you, Michael. Death threats, even when they are meant as
jokes, are in poor taste and not appropriate for Wikipedia. I'm not saying
the person making the above comment should be banned, of course. (In fact
I suspect that Michael and I would be among the first people to protest
such an idea.) But it's probably a good idea to take care that jokes can
not be misread. The person making completely inappropriate comments on
Jimbo's family may well have considered himself to be "making a joke" (I
don't know enough of the specifics of that case to be sure).

Here's another example that I came across recently. The following is a
post containing a short list of people the poster considers to be
acting in bad faith and to have a revolting agenda (i.e. trolling?):

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy&diff=21951866&oldid=21945176

And here is a message by the same poster, made the same morning,
expressing the idea that an [[AK-74]] assault rifle with the safety off is
a useful tool to deal with trolls:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SlimVirgin&diff=21944327&oldid=21943812

If one were so inclined one could take those posts together (or the second
one alone) to constitute a death threat. I am not so inclined. Like
Michael I attempt to be "quick to recognize the attempted humor". The
AK-74 post is no doubt meant as an innocent way to compliment Sarah for
her valor in resisting vandals and trolls. I would, however, have
preferred another metaphor.

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: any plans to run on PHP 5?

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> I'd like to upgrade to PHP 4.4.0 compiled with gcc 4.0.1. We tried
> compiling PHP with the Intel C compiler a while ago, and although it was
> faster, the compilation procedure was complex, and it lacked that free
> software purity, so we didn't stick with it. But now that gcc has many
> of the same optimisations (loop unrolling, autovectorization, etc.), the
> speed improvement over gcc 3.x might be comparable. It would be
> interesting to do some benchmarks.

I _think_ we've got all the 4.4.0 reference-handling kinks worked out in
1.5/HEAD now, so I would not object to that. Might be worth a quick home
benchmark first though.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: David Harvey

body:
OK, then I guess I'll stick to PHP 4

(*sob sob*)

Thanks

David


subject: [Wikitech-l] mediawiki database structure

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:

>On 01/09/05, Rajesh Olafson <rolafson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I just look at
>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design to me it seem
>>as if this project is talking about different database structuer?
>>Is this true? Could this be teh first time a mediawiki project have a
>>different db structuer?
>>
>>
>
>Yes; this is a project which doesn't exist yet, and will use an
>as-yet-uncreated version of the software. It's not yet clear (to me,
>anyway) to what extent "Wikidata" will be incorporated into MediaWiki,
>or if it will end up as a kind of "fork". Depends how much the new
>features interfere with the old ones, I guess...
>
>
Hoi,
The first code has been committed to CVS :) . Wikidata is very much part
of Mediawiki and it would be no good if it did not integrate with what
is already there. How do you decide that a project that has been worked
on for over a year does not exist ? I am really happy that their is
finally some concrete "evidence" of all the prepatory work that has been
done. As so often before, I would ask people to have a look at the data
design of Ultimate Wiktionary;
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design . I am
very happy to be able to ask you to follow the developments in CVS as well.

Thanks,
    GerardM


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New wikipedia?

body:
My suggestion is to add a TOC to the mainpage.

A good English TOC can be found: http://dv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Obviously, the names need to be translated.

When those redlinks exist, that person may write the articles from
scratch, or translate them from an existing Wikipedia.

Mark

On 01/09/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> We have a domain reserved for Luganda (Lugandan?) at lg.wikipedia.org.
> >> It currently has no content, although it is open for editing.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > Unfortunately, I do not think we have such a page. Though...
> >
> > Well, one you may be interested in (or not) is
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_all_languages_should_have
> >
> > Not everyone agrees with that list though.
>
> I personally would start with subjects in connections to the
> country/region the language is spoken in.
>
> So an article about the country
> A couple of major cities/regions/provinces
> 3 or 4 persons that were/are important to the people speaking the
> language like a famous singer, president, actor
>
> furthermore according to our pagestatistics which were on again for a
> couple of weeks this year but which jave unfortunately been switched off
> yet again! articles related to sex and articles related to news items do
> very well in any language. Also the "day pages" always end up high in
> those statistics. So if you want to try and attract people more quickly
> towards your language pedia try to develop those areas from the beginning.
>
> Waerth/Walter
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New wikipedia?

body:
Andrew Gray wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> We have a domain reserved for Luganda (Lugandan?) at lg.wikipedia.org.
> It currently has no content, although it is open for editing.
>
> Someone left a question on the en:wiki Help Desk about translating
> articles into Luganda; I pointed them towards that site. However, it's
> pretty much completely empty other than the main page, which I can see
> being pretty daunting for a new user. Is there anything on meta:
> intended to act as a "so, you're starting on an empty project" guide?
>
> (Anyone who wants to leave other advice on the HD page, please do)
>

Hi

Unfortunately, I do not think we have such a page. Though...

Well, one you may be interested in (or not) is
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_all_languages_should_have

Not everyone agrees with that list though.

On fr: when it started, most editors mostly did stubs, with empty red
links to invite contributions. I rather chose to make few but quite
complete articles. At least a visitor gets something real to read and
not put off by the encyclopedia being merely a collection of stubs. If
you wisely choose the topic, the fleshy articles can also pretty well
appear in google and attract new editors.
Remember also to wander on discussion forum and let the link to the
fleshy articles there, so that participants of the forum can follow them.

However, all this takes time. First thing to do is to make a main page,
with a bunch of links. Avoid making a full main page as big languages
do, hundreds of red links on the main page is more scary than anything :-)

Ant


from_name: Jtkiefer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Looking at the real world

body:
Skyring wrote:

>In the past day, [[user:jtdirl]] has published my name and address, and
>[[user:mackensen]] has accused me of criminal acts. Other admins apparently
>support both actions.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=22362309
> What is wrong with you people? Take a step back from your world of user
>accounts and internal rules and get your priorities right. Please.
>
>
>
I don't agree with or support what jtdirl did nor would I support it if
any user did it since posting other users' personal info on wikipedia is
unethical and breaks more than a few of the wiki's guidelines, however
if what I have read on the subject is right you're not all that innocent
yourself and you pushed him to leave the entire project and to a certain
extent pushed him into this.

-Jtkiefer


subject:
[Wikitech-l] The data design for the GEMET phase (part of the
	Ultimate Wiktionary)

body:
Hoi,
We have always planned the implementation of the GEMET thesaurus as one
of the steps in the implementation of the Ultimate Wiktionary. In some
discussions we had, we considered that it might be a better idea to
implement GEMET in a subset of the Ultimate Wiktionary in stead of in
its own datadesign. Once it has been implemented, we will be able to
learn many of the lessons we need to learn as reality shatters many
false dreams. With this implementation, we implement several of the key
functionalities of the UW. It will demonstrate the "eat your own
dogfood" idea; the words for a Languages and for a WordRelation need to
exist in order to implement their functionality and their localised
value. It also demonstrates how a thesaures can be implemented in UW, it
will show off how we can have relations between different meanings.

The one thing I however like best is, that it demonstrates the core
functionality of Ultimate Wiktionary much better. The data design for
this is much easier to understand. The absolute core functionality
however is without the Collection, the CollectionLanguage and the
CollectionMeaning tables. These are needed for the implementation of GEMET.

As it is a subset, it does not have many of the features that will exist
in the full blown version of the UW. These can however be added one at a
time. This allows for more frequent updates and this will propably lead
to much more excitement as we will have more often new features to show.

More info can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design

Thanks,
    GerardM


list: wiktionary-l

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] The data design for the GEMET phase (part of the
	Ultimate Wiktionary)


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> I am really happy that their is
>> finally some concrete "evidence" of all the prepatory work that has been
>> done. As so often before, I would ask people to have a look at the data
>> design of Ultimate Wiktionary;
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design . I am
>> very happy to be able to ask you to follow the developments in CVS as
>> well.
>
>
> Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves!
>
> A _namespace manager_ has been committed in a development branch for
> further work. What this does is change how namespaces are configured and
> allow for some future plug-in functions to take over handling of pages
> in particular namespaces.
>
> While this is a valuable step, please be aware that anything resembling
> what UW will require is still a long way away.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Hoi :) ,
You are absolutely right. but from my perspective, there *is* something
to show. Some people ask if the glass is half empty or half full, this
glass is not empty anymore :) .
Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Ivan Krstic

subject: [Wikitech-l] any plans to run on PHP 5?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> If eAccelerator (based on Turck) is reliable and safe, we might use
> that.

It works reliably for me on 32-bit machines in a larger-than-Wikipedia
deployment. On 64-bit machines, however, it has given me no end of
grief, so I was eventually forced to turn it off.

-IK


from_name: Juanma Barranquero

subject: [Wikitech-l] MURCIAN WIKIPEDIA: Wich is the next step.

body:
On 9/1/05, Miquel Turra <ain_xaitan at yahoo.es> wrote:

> If I'm right, I think there are wikipedia in languages as aragon?s or asturian with less speakers than murcian.

I don't doubt they exist. I seriously doubt they can be successful.

> Most experts says murcian is a language between castilian and catalan
> with many arab elements. This thing makes possible to say that is a
> language with own personality and differenciated of castilian and, of
> course, of the catalan language.

Many experts? Possibly. Most? That'd be surprising. Unfortunately,
declaring something as a "language" or a "dialect" is often politics.
You know what they say: a language is a dialect with an army.

--
                    /L/e/k/t/u


list: foundation-l

body:
Hoi,
One of the admins of the Dutch wikipedia did visit the International
Institute of Social History (Internationaal Instituut voor Sociale
Geschiedenis - http://www.iisg.nl/ ) in Amsterdam today. This was to
discuss to what extend we can cooperate. The collection of the IISG is
of an international importance and it would be great if we could find a
way to cooperate. There will be several issues that will need to be
resolved before this actually happens. One thing that is of importance
to IISG is that the material that they make available, will get a much
improved exposure to the exposure that it gets through their own
website. There are several ways in which we can improve exposure; using
the material in our Wikipedia and other projects is one and localising
the the Meta data is another way of making this happen. Even when we
have done the things that improve the exposure, it is important that we
are able to quantify the usage material has.

As far as I am aware we do not keep tabs on the usage of individual
articles let alone individual pictures. It would however be important
for us to be able to do this when it helps us to gain the trust from
organisations like the IISG . My question therefore is; can we do this
and, are we happy to do this if it helps us prove our added value to
organisations like the IISG that are looking for more exposure of their
content.

NB I have been asked to ask this question. Personally I have not been
involved in any contact with the IISG. This is a follow-up of the
Koninklijke Bibliotheek contacts.

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [Wikitech-l] The use of digital material


body:
On 9/1/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, why would they talk to you in Murcian, unless they thought you
> spoke it?

Sure. But I never ever heard them talk in murcian among them, either.
I've heard people of Euzkadi, Valencia, Baleares, Catalu?a and even
Asturias talk in their languages and/or dialects right in front of me.

> And why would they talk to you about Murcian, unless you
> indicated an interest?

They know full well that I would be interested. Though I'm a computer
programmer, every one of my friends knows I'm a linguistics
aficionado. So if any of my murcian friends thought of murcian as a
language, rest assured, they *would* have mentioned the fact to me.
We've often discussed the valencian/catalan issue and other for
similar languages/dialects in several other parts of Spain (like
Asturias, Le?n and Arag?n).

Anyway: ask any random Spanish whether they've ever heard of bable,
and most will say "yes". Ask them whether they know there's a "murcian
language", and they will, mostly, look puzzled.

So that's exactly what I am, now: puzzled.

--
                    /L/e/k/t/u


body:
> In te other hand, Murcian is a language because is a mixture of three
> languages: castilian, catalan and a great part of their lexicon is arab.

This is not really a compelling argument, unless you're arguing that
murcian is some sort of creole...

> Say that murcian is a dialect is like say that sicilian is a dialect...

Why?

>  Ad besides, the clasification language-dialect is very subjetive.

Of course.

> I think murcian wikipedia would be very interesting, and there are many
> people interested, more every day.

That's the only point I'm really discussing: how many do you estimate
will ultimately do work on the murcian wikipedia? A few hundreds? It
is enough?

--
                    /L/e/k/t/u


body:
> por cierto... nadie aqu? comprende el castellano?

Bueno, yo obviamente s? :-)

--
                    /L/e/k/t/u


body:
Dori wrote:

>On 9/1/05, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>resolved before this actually happens. One thing that is of importance
>>to IISG is that the material that they make available, will get a much
>>improved exposure to the exposure that it gets through their own
>>website. There are several ways in which we can improve exposure; using
>>the material in our Wikipedia and other projects is one and localising
>>the the Meta data is another way of making this happen. Even when we
>>have done the things that improve the exposure, it is important that we
>>are able to quantify the usage material has.
>>
>>
>
>I don't like any conditions other than GFDL/GFDL-compatible licensing.
>The content is the content on Wikipedia no matter where it came from,
>and I don't think they should receive any special treatment.
>Additionally, what do we do about reuse? What if we can't turn on
>counters due to performance reasons? I don't like shackles added to
>the foundation, even if they're made out of paper.
>
>Dori
>
Hoi,
First of all /I/ have not said a word about licensing. I am asking about
proving the obvious to an organisation that does not know us; we are
able to give important material a lot of exposure. Second, content is
the content made available by the Wikimedia Foundation never mind if it
is used in Wikipedia or any other project. Third, why do you think that
an organisation like IISG should not receive any special treatment ? Did
you have a look at the material that they are the custodian off ?
Fourth, when material is made available under a license that is
compatible with what we do, reuse is part and parcel of that license.
Fifth, if we cannot even /discuss /the possibility of having counters on
a yet undetermined number of pictures, what does that make us ?? Sixth,
if we prove to an organisation like IISG that we add value by giving
their content more relevance we do research in our own function. This is
something that the research network would also be interested in.

I also want you to remember what the aim of the Wikimedia Foundation is;
it is to bring free knowledge to every person in the world. The IISG is
an acclaimed institution in their field. They can truly help us in our goal.

Thanks,
    GerardM


body:
Ahh, but Gerard, the words have the same origins, even if you spell
them differently.

So Sass will spell it "greutens", and AS will spell it "groytens", but
they both have the same origin, and the same translations.

Mark

On 01/09/05, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Heiko Evermann wrote:
>
> >Hi Gerard,
> >
> >
> >>The duplication of words that are spelled the same in different dialects
> >>or orthographies is inherent in the database design. This is essential
> >>if you want to have definitions and etymology in these dialects or
> >>orthographies. If you are willing to accept that definitions and
> >>etymology can be spelled in orthographies other than Sass there could be
> >>a solution but as the nds.wikipedia also has to standardise on Sass, I
> >>think this is a rather unlikely scenario.
> >>
> >>
> >Definition and etymology would be the same. Your approach would be a
> >duplication of efforts. It would be sufficient to allow one entry to belong
> >to several orthographis, as in  1:n instead of 1:1. So this is not inherent
> >in the database design. It is the design bug that I complain about for some
> >time.
> >1:n would allow us to enter the data the way we think appropriate. And it
> >still leaves us the opportunity to add individual entries when other users
> >really think that explanations must also be duplicated along the
> >orthographies (which I really doubt). So they can, if they want to, but they
> >are not forced.
> >
> >Kind regards,
> >
> >Heiko
> >
> Hoi,
> As you want your definitions and etymology in Sass, these defintions are
> not the same as the ones in an other orthography. It is therefore not a
> duplication of efforts, it is the consequence of things in Sass. You
> cannot both insist on Sass and have it apply for other orthographies or
> dialects as well. You CAN state that words written the same way or in a
> different way mean the same thing and if people have selected Sass as an
> orthography they are interested in, they may see that it has an
> etymology or a definition.
>
> I am interested in who your "we" is. I did recently discuss this design
> in a four hour session with language engineers, I discussed the German /
> Dutch / English - American / Lower Saxon languages and they agreed with
> me that this design allows for other purposes than just lexicon lookup.
> I have discussed the design with many people and so far the only "we"
> who asks for "this" is you.
>
> What you call a design bug is in actual fact a design feature.  One
> point that you are missing is that the meaning of a word spelled the
> same between dialects may be different. This is exactly one reason why
> this duplication is needed. The same is true for etymology; when a word
> is used for a first time in THAT orthography or dialect may be different
> as well, it may arrive from another dialect and not from another language..
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Ed Poor

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fw: Ordering Wikipedia

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Smith" <donald_smith123 at yahoo.ca>
To: uncle_ed_poor at yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:46:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ordering Wikipedia

> Sir,
>
> I honestly love working with Wikipedia. At such a
point that I wish to
> order one sample for our family's need.
>
> How do we proceed to acquire one?
>
> Also, what are the modalities to pay the required
fees and charges, besides
> sending a Credit Card Number on the Internet, if any
other mode of
> payment is available of course !
>
> Thank you for your time, and may your team keep on
the excellent work done
> so far. Thousands of users appreciated.
>
> Donald
> Canada

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Felipe Pablos

body:
Juanma Barranquero wrote:

>>por cierto... nadie aqu? comprende el castellano?
>>
>>
>
>Bueno, yo obviamente s? :-)
>
>
>
Yo tambi?n entiendo castellano, como buen Espa?ol ;)
I can help you with mounting the software, but nothing else. Tell me
something when you know what steps you have to follow

--
Felipe Pablos Lamas
Secretariado de Nuevas Tecnolog?as
Vicerrectorado de Nuevas Tecnolog?as y Pol?tica Inform?tica
Universidad de Extremadura
Plaza Caldereros S/N
Edificio Rectorado
10071 C?ceres (C?ceres) Espa?a (Spain)
Extensi?n: 1110, 7250


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Encarta article list

body:
Zachary Harden (zscout370 at hotmail.com) [050829 01:19]:
>From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>

> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Encarta_Encyclopedia_topics

> >Please delete this list immediately.  Opinions of our legal team are
> >divided about the issue, and I feel that in a case like this,
> >conservatism and caution are called for.

> Due to the above message from Jimbo, and taking no chances, I went ahead
> and deleted the Encyclop?dia Britannica 2004 list, which was designed in a
> similiar fashion to the Encarta list. I am not sure what other lists can
> go, but I think we should not take chances with them if the WMF legal are
> having issues.

If xsomeone could email these pages to me (to dgerard at gmail dot com by
preference), I will put them up in private web space of my own and say
"fuck 'em".

- d.


from_name: Miquel Turra

body:
?Que si han escuchado bable? pues hombre... si han ido al medio rural asturiano, es muy probable, en Oviedo, poca, muy poca gente, si la hay, utiliza el bable o siquiera lo conoce (el predominio ling??stico es del castellano sin ninguna duda). Es un caso bien parecido. En la Regi?n de Murcia hay m?s de 1.300.000 de las que obviamente todas no consideran el murciano, una lengua (esto sucede en todas partes). En el medio rural pueden defenderse o puede considerarse hablen murciano (en distintas variantes seg?n la comarca). Pero es que a?n as? esa base de hablantes ya es bastante m?s amplia que la del aragon?s, por ejemplo, por motivos obvios como la escasa poblaci?n de Arag?n, nunca mayor del 1.000.000. Al fin y al cabo la fabla es solo hablada por unos pocos ancianos en el pirineo oscense, lo que se est? llevando a cabo es la RECUPERACI?N de ese patrimonio aragon?s. A?n as? ?Crees que en Zaragoza alguien se entiende con la fabla? desde luego que no, all? ellos te dir?n que hablan el
 castellano, con sus matices aragoneses, de acuerdo, pero castellano al fin y al cabo. Aqu? sucede algo bien parecido, si le preguntas a alguien de la ciudad de Murcia, el te dir? que habla castellano, con sus matices murcianos, pero castellano. Por supuesto si preguntas a un cartagenero te dir? que el no conoce, ya que all? nunca se ha hablado murciano, solo en la vega del Segura. No confundamos una cosa con la otra, el castellano hablado en estos lugares, con el habla aut?ctona, que aunque tenga su origen en una lengua como el castellano o catal?, ha tenido siglos de variaci?n propia. Analizar la situaci?n en el medio urbano se presta a equ?vocos indudablemente.

Tambi?n me hablas de voluntad pol?tica ?quienes son por tanto los encargados de decidir si un proyecto sale adelante o no entonces? ?los pol?ticos? pues vaya una cosa entonces. ?Estamos por tanto o debemos estar sujetos y a merced a la ineptitud de un gobierno regional que no se preocupa por nuestros asuntos ni nuestra cultura? me parecer?a algo fuerte si fuese as?. De todas formas, estamos pidiendo el reconocimiento del murciano en el pr?ximo estatuto auton?mico de la Regi?n Murciana, incluso se plantean recuperarlo como asignatura, para vencer la gran ignorancia que azota esta regi?n en materia ling??stica, y vencer el autoodio que los murcianos tienen con su propio habla.

No me parece que el presumible n?mero de art?culos fuese una pega a la hora de crearla, me parece claro que otras wikipedias a?n tendr?an un n?mero menor (las wikipedias asturiana y aragonesa sin ir m?s lejos, con 500 art?culos como mucho). De todas maneras me parece que es un poco pronto para presuponer todo eso ?no? De momento hay una base firme de colaboradores.

En cualquier caso, recibe un saludo cordial.

Me permito adjuntarte la propuesta para la oficialidad de nuestro habla. M?s que nada, porque me sabr?a mal que pensases que me estoy inventando todo esto, o que el murciano es una especie de ?lfico que solo existe en mi cabeza :)

La asociaci?n L'Ajuntaera pa la pl?tica, el esturrie y'el escarculle la llengua murciana, con el apoyo de la Federaci?n de Asociaciones de Vecinos, Consumidores y Usuarios de la Regi?n de Murcia, la Federaci?n de Pe?as Huertanas, la Asociaci?n de Amigos del Museo de la Huerta de Murcia y la asociaci?n Colectivo XXI, est? desarrollando una serie de iniciativas con el fin de conseguir el reconocimiento y la protecci?n del murciano.

Entre dichas iniciativas, destaca la petici?n al Presidente de la Comunidad Aut?noma Murciana, as? como al Presidente de la Asamblea Regional de Murcia y a los portavoces de los distintos partidos pol?ticos presentes en la c?mara murciana, de incluir en el Estatuto de Autonom?a la protecci?n de la lengua murciana, declarar a ?sta Bien de Inter?s Cultural y tomar todas las medidas necesarias para su protecci?n, promoci?n y difusi?n. De este modo, se present?, en el Parlamento Murciano el pasado d?a 21 de octubre de 2003, y adem?s, al Secretario General de Presidencia, Jos? Antonio Ruiz Vivo (en representaci?n del Presidente Auton?mico, Ram?n Lu?s Valc?rcel), en el Palacio San Esteban el 12 de abril de 2005, un estudio ling??stico, realizado por los fil?logos Antonio S?nchez Verd? y Francisco Mart?nez Torres, y un estudio jur?dico, llevado a cabo por el letrado y profesor universitario ?ngel Custodio Navarro S?nchez. Adem?s, se les adjunt? un estudio comparativo sobre la protecci?n
 jur?dica, que todas las comunidades aut?nomas est?n llevando a cabo, en relaci?n a sus respectivas lenguas regionales y patrimonio ling??stico.
- La situaci?n actual y la necesidad de protecci?n jur?dica-legal del patrimonio ling??stico murciano:

El marco jur?dico-legal de protecci?n/reconocimiento a prop?sito del patrimonio ling??stico de la Regi?n de Murcia vendr?a/viene representado actualmente por el art?culo 8 del Estatuto de Autonom?a, seg?n el cual (y en un concepto amplio, en tanto que patrimonio cultural y peculiaridad aut?ctona) se establece que "La Comunidad Aut?noma prestar? especial atenci?n al Derecho consuetudinario de la Regi?n, con particular referencia a los tribunales consuetudinarios y tradicionales en materia de aguas y proteger? y fomentar? las peculiaridades culturales, as? como el acervo de tradiciones populares de la misma, respetando en todo caso las variantes locales y comarcales".

Y ya est?: ese art?culo 8 (en todo lo que dice y en todo lo que no dice) es lo ?nico que hay. De ah? que no se "defina" -es evidente- de qu? se compone ese patrimonio ling??stico ni que se establezcan medidas de protecci?n/reconocimiento ad hoc; ni tan siquiera se nombra ese patrimonio ling??stico (tanto el derivado del castellano, en su confluencia con el aragon?s y el catal?n/valenciano, origen de las hablas murcianas actuales, como el representado por el catal?n/valenciano propio de la Regi?n de Murcia, en la zona llamada del Carche/Carxe, territorio murciano, en los municipios de Abanilla, Jumilla y Yecla, cuyos habitantes son de habla catalana/valenciana). Y, por supuesto, tampoco existe ninguna alusi?n (o referencia vaga) en el Estatuto al hecho de que se comparte el patrimonio ling??stico (murciano o de origen murciano) con ?mbitos geogr?ficos significativos de las provincias colindantes o fronteras con la Regi?n (Albacete, Alicante/Alacant, Almer?a, Granada y Ja?n), en buen
 n?mero de comarcas.

Sin embargo, pese a esta situaci?n legal (en apariencia tan desoladora), la materia de la protecci?n jur?dica y del reconocimiento efectivo de todo este patrimonio ling??stico murciano, en toda su riqueza y variedad (dentro y fuera de los l?mites geogr?ficos de la Regi?n de Murcia) ha sido tratada, con profusi?n y dedicaci?n, sobre la base de la normativa constitucional y del resto de Estatutos de Autonom?a (y de la nov?sima Carta Europea de las Lenguas Regionales o Minoritarias), por el velezano ?ngel Custodio Navarro S?nchez, Letrado y Profesor universitario afincado en Eivissa (Illes Balears), si bien con contacto permanente y continuado con los V?lez (Almer?a), as? como con Murcia y, en general, con toda la Cuenca del Segura.

De entre los textos por ?l redactados -y que tratan esta materia- destacamos los siguientes (algunos de ellos a?n in?ditos):

1) "Necesidad de la protecci?n urgente, por la v?a legislativa, del patrimonio ling??stico de la Regi?n de Murcia y de toda la Cuenca del Segura", texto objeto de publicaci?n en la Revista del XVIII Encuentro de Cuadrillas "Comarca de los V?lez", V?lez Rubio (Almer?a), a?o 2001. Esta Revista cont? con el patrocinio del Ayuntamiento de V?lez Rubio, la Consejer?a de Cultura de la Junta de Andaluc?a y la Diputaci?n Provincial de Almer?a. En este texto trat? nuestro autor, en tanto que jurista, la cuesti?n de la materia ling??stica en el Sureste.

De este art?culo se ha hecho eco, en un texto redactado todo ?l en murciano, la Revista "ENZA" (editada por L'Ajuntaera), con un extracto en el n? 14, a?o 2002, p?gs. 43-45, texto titulado "Remaniente a la Llengua". Asimismo se ha hecho eco dicha Revista del hecho de que con anterioridad ya hab?a redactado, en su momento, sobre las hablas murcianas (incluida la propia y espec?fica de Los V?lez, territorio almeriense y andaluz), sobre la influencia del substrato catalano-aragon?s en aqu?llas y sobre la necesidad de su protecci?n jur?dica en tanto que riqueza cultural e idiom?tica, diversas "Cartas al Director", en lengua catalana, publicadas en la Revista valenciana (y balear y catalana) "EL TEMPS": en el n? 544, de 21 de noviembre de 1994 con el t?tulo "Murcians i m?s al sud encara" ("Murcianos y m?s al sur todav?a") y el n? 803, del 2 al 8 de noviembre de 1999, p?g. 6, con el t?tulo "L'Estatut Murci?" ("El Estatuto Murciano").

2) "El patrimonio ling??stico de la Cuenca del Segura: una riqueza idiom?tica necesitada de protecci?n urgent?sima por la v?a jur?dica, pol?tica e institucional", dado a conocer con motivo de la "XIV Semana la Llengua Murciana", evento organizado por L'Ajuntaera. Conferencia impartida en su condici?n de "Presonaje Delustre" de la XIV Semana la Llengua (Murcia, noviembre de 2002).

Dicho texto est? redactado en castellano, si bien a la hora de los agradecimientos e introducci?n, ley? un escrito que rezumaba todo ?l un uso, culto, literario y formal, de las modalidades ling??sticas de los V?lez, para asombro y sorpresa de todos.

3) "Bases para la autonom?a y comarcalizaci?n de los V?lez", en concreto una "Propuesta de Ley de Estatuto Comarcal para los V?lez (Almer?a)", texto objeto de publicaci?n en el n? 21 de Revista Velezana (V?lez Rubio, Almer?a, a?o 2002), p?gs. 193-206. La edici?n correspondi? al Ayuntamiento de V?lez Rubio, con la colaboraci?n del IEA (Instituto de Estudios Almerienses) de la Diputaci?n Provincial de Almer?a.

Esta "Propuesta de Ley", as? como el n? 21 de Revista Velezana, se present? en V?lez Blanco, en el Sal?n de Plenos del Ayuntamiento, el 14 de julio de 2002, impartiendo ese d?a ?ngel Custodio Navarro S?nchez una conferencia titulada "La Comarca de los V?lez, un territorio almeriense singular: en un pa?s andaluz, una estirpe murciana", que, de seguro, no dej? indiferente al numeroso p?blico que a ella acudi?.

En efecto, y como no pod?a ser de otra manera, en esta "Propuesta de Ley", existen numerosas referencias a las notables singularidades -culturales e hist?ricas- de los V?lez (y en concreto alusi?n expresa a la protecci?n, hoy, del habla velezana, como modalidad englobable en el marco de las hablas murcianas: art?culo 6, y alusi?n a muchas otras cuestiones relacionadas con la materia del "andalucismo", la "murcian?a" y, tambi?n, la "velezan?a").

4) "El Sureste: un pa?s construido, o ?por construir?" y cuyo subt?tulo ya dice bastante -y es ilustrativo- sobre su contenido: "(Derecho, mitos, historia, pol?tica, folclore y otras realidades. Almer?a, Murcia y los V?lez)", 120 p?gs., texto in?dito, redactado entre Calvi? (Mallorca, Illes Balears) y V?lez Blanco (Almer?a), fechado el 29 de septiembre de 1995 y con el siguiente n?mero de Registro de la Propiedad Intelectual (RPI): PM - 1748, del a?o 1997.

- La propuesta de reforma del Estatuto de Autonom?a de la Regi?n de Murcia:

La particular protecci?n y/o el espec?fico reconocimiento jur?dicos que el Profesor Navarro S?nchez propugna para el patrimonio ling??stico murciano (en los estrictos t?rminos de la Regi?n de Murcia) se centra en a?adir dos nuevos apartados al actual art?culo 8 del Estatuto de Autonom?a, del tenor literal siguiente:

"2. Las hablas y modalidades ling??sticas de la Regi?n de Murcia, en toda su riqueza y variedad -como patrimonio cultural, hist?rico e idiom?tico com?n a los territorios de la Cuenca del Segura- ser?n objeto de especial respeto y protecci?n. A tal efecto, se adoptar?n por la Comunidad Aut?noma medidas legislativas y administrativas apropiadas y se fomentar? la creaci?n de entidades que atiendan a dichos fines y a su conservaci?n, con respeto, en todo caso, a las variantes locales y comarcales".

"3. En igual sentido, el habla valenciana -propia de determinados lugares de los municipios de Abanilla, Jumilla y Yecla- ser? objeto de especial respeto y protecci?n. A tal efecto, se adoptar?n por la Comunidad Aut?noma las medidas legislativas y administrativas necesarias, se fomentar? su recuperaci?n y se proteger?n los derechos de sus hablantes, todo ello dentro de la unidad del sistema ling??stico del que forma parte este habla".

Adem?s, y en pro de un reconocimiento -reflejo- del patrimonio ling??stico y cultural murciano (o de origen murciano) existente en las provincias colindantes o fronteras con la Regi?n (Albacete, Alicante/Alacant, Almer?a, Granada y Ja?n), en buen n?mero de comarcas, incluida la de Los V?lez, aboga, asimismo, por la inclusi?n en el Estatuto de Autonom?a murciano de una disposici?n adicional del tenor literal siguiente:

"La Comunidad Aut?noma, por ser la Cultura murciana patrimonio de otros territorios y Comunidades, adem?s de los v?nculos y correspondencia que mantengan las instituciones culturales de la Cuenca del Segura, podr? solicitar del Gobierno de la Naci?n y de las Cortes Generales los convenios de cooperaci?n y de relaci?n que se consideren oportunos con el fin de salvaguardar el patrimonio cultural com?n, estableciendo a tal fin los acuerdos correspondientes con las instituciones de los Municipios, Comarcas y Provincias concernidos y con los organismos correspondientes de las Comunidades Aut?nomas de Andaluc?a, Castilla-La Mancha y la Comunidad Valenciana, todo ello de conformidad con la Constituci?n y las Leyes".

---------------------------------

Correo Yahoo!
Comprueba qu? es nuevo, aqu?
http://correo.yahoo.es


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] Looking at the real world

body:
In the past day, [[user:jtdirl]] has published my name and address, and
[[user:mackensen]] has accused me of criminal acts. Other admins apparently
support both actions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=22362309
 What is wrong with you people? Take a step back from your world of user
accounts and internal rules and get your priorities right. Please.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Amruta Lonkar

subject: [Wikitech-l] treating references as first class objects in wiki

body:
Hi,

I am trying to enhance the wikimedia syntax to include a simple easy to use
citation format. This will include an automatically generated reference page
in addition to the existing talk,, discussion and history pages. In addition
each reference on the reference page will have its own page and willl funciton
same as an article in a wiki with its own talk page. Thus the wiki might be
effectivelu used by students in writing papers.

I have just started going through the mediawiki code and i wanted to know what
would be a good starting point to work on this kind of a project. I am getting
very confused with the actual flow of the code. I will be creating a separate
database for the references so i need to unerstand the flow.

--
Thanks,
Amruta


from_name: Nikola Smolenski

body:
On Thursday 01 September 2005 17:59, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Heiko Evermann wrote:
> >>The duplication of words that are spelled the same in different dialects
> >>or orthographies is inherent in the database design. This is essential
> >>if you want to have definitions and etymology in these dialects or
> >>orthographies. If you are willing to accept that definitions and
> >>etymology can be spelled in orthographies other than Sass there could be
> >>a solution but as the nds.wikipedia also has to standardise on Sass, I
> >>think this is a rather unlikely scenario.
> >
> >Definition and etymology would be the same. Your approach would be a
> >duplication of efforts. It would be sufficient to allow one entry to
> > belong to several orthographis, as in  1:n instead of 1:1. So this is not
> > inherent in the database design. It is the design bug that I complain
> > about for some time.
> >1:n would allow us to enter the data the way we think appropriate. And it
> >still leaves us the opportunity to add individual entries when other users
> >really think that explanations must also be duplicated along the
> >orthographies (which I really doubt). So they can, if they want to, but
> > they are not forced.
>
> I am interested in who your "we" is. I did recently discuss this design

Well, count me in, for the start.

> What you call a design bug is in actual fact a design feature.  One
> point that you are missing is that the meaning of a word spelled the
> same between dialects may be different. This is exactly one reason why
> this duplication is needed. The same is true for etymology; when a word

That is not reason for duplication at all. If a string of letters has
different meanings in different dialects, each of these meanings should have
a row in "word" table, with different wordID. Each of these wordIDs should be
related to a SEPARATE spellingID, not the same one, even though it's still
the same string of letters; for one, their languageIDs are different. Each of
these spellingIDs, if valid, should of course be related to separate
ValidSpellingID; and it should be possible that each of these
ValidSpellingIDs is related to several spelling authorities. It is the norm,
rather than exception, that different authorities recommend same spelling for
same word.


from_name: Jonathan Leybovich

subject: [Wikitech-l] RE: reating references as first class objects in wiki

body:
> Hi,
>
> I am trying to enhance the wikimedia syntax to
> include a simple easy to use
> citation format. This will include an automatically
> generated reference page

Amruta,

There seem to be a couple proposed projects already
addressing this issue, the most prominent being
Wikicite:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicite

There is also a proposal for storing relational data
entered through a wiki called Wikidata:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata

I think it would be best to try and use these projects
as foundations for any further work with regard to
references/citations.  Thanks.

>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri,  2 Sep 2005 09:54:38 -0400
> From: Amruta Lonkar <gtg808u at mail.gatech.edu>
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] treating references as first
> class objects in
> 	wiki
> To: wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> Message-ID:
> <1125669278.4318599ecab56 at webmail.mail.gatech.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi,
>
> I am trying to enhance the wikimedia syntax to
> include a simple easy to use
> citation format. This will include an automatically
> generated reference page
> in addition to the existing talk,, discussion and
> history pages. In addition
> each reference on the reference page will have its
> own page and willl funciton
> same as an article in a wiki with its own talk page.
> Thus the wiki might be
> effectivelu used by students in writing papers.
>
> I have just started going through the mediawiki code
> and i wanted to know what
> would be a good starting point to work on this kind
> of a project. I am getting
> very confused with the actual flow of the code. I
> will be creating a separate
> database for the references so i need to unerstand
> the flow.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Amruta
>
>

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Inserting a user from an outside script

body:
On Sunday 28 August 2005 21:59, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Try: $password = md5("{$user_id}-".md5($user_password));

How much safer this exactly is than simply md5($user_password)? I'm not a
cryptography expert, but I'd say not much, as someone who manages to read a
database will likely have usernames in addition to md5s, so it would not be
much harder to crack them (only twice as slow, it seems to me).


from_name: Giuseppe DAngelo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: new wikipedia

body:
Re starting a new wikipedia from scratch, I can vouch for everything everyone as said so far, as someone who faced nothing but a TOC 10 months ago on scn.wiki (actually it was nothing but a white page until Mark dumped a template in there for me).

The only thing I can add is that it is a bloody long, slow, laborious process and one has to strike a balance between setting up all the infrastructure (very boring work) and writing wonderful, brilliant articles (which is slightly more interesting).

I will now make a full confession.  My second child had just been born at the time and my wife was going to bed at 8pm every night, leaving me free for 4 hours every evening for about the first 6 months  of scn.wiki's life - that pretty much gives you an idea of what is required in terms of time.  Now you are probably all thinking, typical sicilian male - leaving baby duties to the woman!  But I have been punished well and truly the last 4 months or so, where I have been on permanent wake up duty and have been getting by on a few hours of sleep per night - as a consequence - the wonderful, brilliant articles in scn.wiki have had to take a back seat!
Salutamu
pippu d'a

---------------------------------
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from_name: bibin babu

subject: [Wikipedia-l] (no subject)

body:
 ?
kenniferdinand at hotmail.com


subject:
[Wikitech-l] When and how can I know if my proposal has been
	aproved or denied?

body:
Hi all
When and how can I know if my proposal for the murcian wikipedia has been aproved or denied?

---------------------------------

Correo Yahoo!
Comprueba qu? es nuevo, aqu?
http://correo.yahoo.es


from_name: Michael Turley

subject: [WikiEN-l] A matter of discretion in the wake of Katrina?

body:
In light of the Katrina disaster and the competing appeals for aid for the
victims there, should we consider suspending the Wikimedia Foundation
funding drive for a time?

Or do we consider the two causes different enough that it should continue as
scheduled?

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New wikipedia?

body:
>
>
>>
>>
>> We have a domain reserved for Luganda (Lugandan?) at lg.wikipedia.org.
>> It currently has no content, although it is open for editing.
>>
>>
>
> Hi
>
> Unfortunately, I do not think we have such a page. Though...
>
> Well, one you may be interested in (or not) is
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_all_languages_should_have
>
> Not everyone agrees with that list though.

I personally would start with subjects in connections to the
country/region the language is spoken in.

So an article about the country
A couple of major cities/regions/provinces
3 or 4 persons that were/are important to the people speaking the
language like a famous singer, president, actor

furthermore according to our pagestatistics which were on again for a
couple of weeks this year but which jave unfortunately been switched off
yet again! articles related to sex and articles related to news items do
very well in any language. Also the "day pages" always end up high in
those statistics. So if you want to try and attract people more quickly
towards your language pedia try to develop those areas from the beginning.

Waerth/Walter


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> David Harvey wrote:
>
>> Thanks Gordon for letting me know that wikimedia servers currently  run
>> PHP 4.3.11.
>>
>> Are there any plans to be running PHP 5.x?
>
>
> At this time we have no particular plans to upgrade to PHP 5.
>
> To consider it we would need to have a reliable opcode cache extension
> to achieve equivalent performance to PHP 4.3+Turck MMCache. (Turck
> MMCache is no longer maintained and is unreliable on PHP 5.)
>
> If eAccelerator (based on Turck) is reliable and safe, we might use that.

I'd like to upgrade to PHP 4.4.0 compiled with gcc 4.0.1. We tried
compiling PHP with the Intel C compiler a while ago, and although it was
faster, the compilation procedure was complex, and it lacked that free
software purity, so we didn't stick with it. But now that gcc has many
of the same optimisations (loop unrolling, autovectorization, etc.), the
speed improvement over gcc 3.x might be comparable. It would be
interesting to do some benchmarks.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Phroziac

subject: [Wikipedia-l] (no subject)

body:
billgates at microsoft.com

On 2 Sep 2005 12:00:29 -0000, bibin babu <your_bibin at rediffmail.com> wrote:
>
> kenniferdinand at hotmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
signature


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A matter of discretion in the wake of Katrina?

body:
On 9/2/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 02/09/05, Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 9/2/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > In light of the Katrina disaster and the competing appeals for aid for
> the
> > > victims there, should we consider suspending the Wikimedia Foundation
> > > funding drive for a time?
> > >
> > > Or do we consider the two causes different enough that it should
> continue as
> > > scheduled?
> >
> > We're doing our part by providing accessible, neutral, and up-to-date
> > information about the disaster. The extra traffic costs money...
>
> I've not seen any complaints about the fund drive - but would you
> believe someone complained about having the Hurricane Katrina article
> linked from /In The News/ on the front page? The mind, she boggles.
>
> For what it's worth, income over the past few days to the fund drive
> has been roughly constant. I'd say that indicates it isn't in direct
> competition in any way; were we holding a drive for $random_charity,
> then perhaps.
>

OK. I see our value here as pointed out by Fredrik Johansson.

I don't normally see the news, instead preferring to read online and listen
to NPR. Last night and this morning were the first time I'd seen video
footage and photographs of the aftermath, and although I realized how big
the disaster was, I guess today is when the emotional impact struck me.

I hope no one thinks I was suggesting that we're wrong to continue the
scheduled drive. I was listening to a report of the lack of effective relief
efforts while reading Wikipedia's article on Katrina, and noticed our appeal
at the top of the page and I suddenly felt very small. On reflection, even
the goal for our drive is very small as well.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


subject: [WikiEN-l] Looking at the real world

body:
On 9/2/05, Jtkiefer <jtkiefer at wordzen.net> wrote:
>
> Skyring wrote:
>
> >In the past day, [[user:jtdirl]] has published my name and address, and
> >[[user:mackensen]] has accused me of criminal acts. Other admins
> apparently
> >support both actions.
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=22362309
> > What is wrong with you people? Take a step back from your world of user
> >accounts and internal rules and get your priorities right. Please.
>
> I don't agree with or support what jtdirl did nor would I support it if
> any user did it since posting other users' personal info on wikipedia is
> unethical and breaks more than a few of the wiki's guidelines, however
> if what I have read on the subject is right you're not all that innocent
> yourself and you pushed him to leave the entire project and to a certain
> extent pushed him into this.

 Judging by this edit at
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=22370295&oldid=22367189he
may still be around, playing some game of his own and unwilling as
ever
to admit he's done anything wrong. Perhaps David Gerard can take a look at
the interesting series of edits at
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=83.71.15.181and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/AULDBITCH_LOVES_YOU and
let us know his thoughts about this stuff coming out of Dublin?
 Nothing I've done amounts to the criminal behaviour of which Mackensen has
publicly accused me, nor do my actions warrant having my name and address
published by an admin, and I certainly don't deserve having my name attached
to the crude vandalism of Mackensen's user page. Be fair, please!

> --
> Peter in Canberra


from_name: Nyenyec N

subject: [Wikitech-l] Assisting Google's language recognition?

body:
Hi,

Google miscategorizes the language of some of the Hungarian Wikipedia
pages. E.g. it thinks that our Adolf Hitler article is in czech.
Examples:

http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janis_Joplin
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram-k%C3%ADs%C3%A9rlet
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnami_h%C3%A1bor%C3%BA
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Pitt
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Anderson

As far as I can see, the HTTP response header contains:
"Content-Language: hu"

and the returned page has:

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="hu" lang="hu" dir="ltr">

Unfortunately when our target audience (Hungarian web users, who may
not speak English) search for "Adolf Hitler" in Hungarian they won't
get any Wikipedia hits. :(

So what else can we do to make Google believe that these pages are in
Hungarian and not some other language?

Is there a (semi) formal address where I can submit a bug report about
this to Google?

Thanks,
nyenyec


from_name: Traroth

subject:
[Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation in 5 years - Giant
	brainstorming - a game with rules.

body:
I decided to understand this as "what do you want
Wikimedia to be in 5 years", so no "there are much
legal threats against Wikimedia" here...

> ==WMF in 5 years==
> *Board and management

The Board is elected by the community. Jimbo is
regularily re-elected as president.
The Board has the people it needs to work...

> *Staff (the positions, the roles, whether they're
> paid or not)

What is needed... Preferably voluntaries, since they
are more involved, but why not paid ? (see next point)

> *Budget

As much as possible...

> *Fundraising scheme

Donations by patrons (enterprises, private people,
fundations...), without counterpart, subsidy from UN,
UNESCO and States, merchandising. No publicity on the
projects, no fees to access them.

> *Philantropic activity and outreach to get our
> content widely redistributed

The celebrity of Wikimedia make it possible to
militate against patents and copyright, and the whole
world has understand the need of a free internet
access, even in a lost recess in jungle, so everybody
can access to our content. I'm not sure a paper
version of Wikipedia is really a good idea, since it
will be a "under-Wikipedia", without links and so.
Web-links is the only structure of Wikipedia, so a
paper version will need to practicaly rewrite the
whole thing.

> *Projects

I have no idea of serious new projects. Wikicookbook ?
:-)

The Sept-11 Memorial has been removed, like the
Klingon Wikipedia, but after everybody has accept it.

> *Content objectives

Wikibooks has grown much bigger than Wikipedia. All in
2005 existing Wikipedias have grown over 100,000
articles. Wikispecies is again a part of Wikipedia...
Wiktionaries are complete (since it's possible,
contrary to Wikipedia)

> *Software objectives

SVG make pictures freely editable, like text, with a
specific MediaWiki syntax (no need to know SVG).
In all projects, each word can be opened in a
Wiktionary window

> *Relationship between chapters and parent
> organisation

WMF and local chapters are interdependent.
Transparency and regular reporting of activities at a
central and freely accessible place is the rule. Local
chapters negociate with content sources (e.g. museums)
for access.

> *Relationships with the outside world (PR,
> partnerships, etc.)

WMF already got the Nobel prize for Peace in 2008...

> *Other (anything we did not think of)

A corpus of irremovable laws, like a constitution has
been written. These rules garantee that the spirit of
Wikipedia and of the other projects will stay the same
for the 1000 next years.

Traroth

___________________________________________________________________________
Appel audio GRATUIT partout dans le monde avec le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger
T?l?chargez cette version sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Jeremy Dunck

body:
On 9/2/05, Nyenyec N <nyenyec at gmail.com> wrote:
> So what else can we do to make Google believe that these pages are in
> Hungarian and not some other language?
>
> Is there a (semi) formal address where I can submit a bug report about
> this to Google?

The google blog's email addy is a good place to start; they've just
recently posted two items on their translation services.

gblog at google.com

Blog here: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/

Also, see http://groups.google.com/group/google.public.translators
(newsgroup google.public.translators)


from_name: Valentina Faussone

subject: [Wikitech-l] "dialect" wikipedias

body:
with "dialect" projects wiki is going to became a way
to preserve some less used language from fading away
and to spread the culture they express potencially all
over the world.
That's a probably unplanned path, but it seems to me
really good. Good luck: for the moment I'm afraid it's
all I can do to be of some help. :?|

Valentina Faussone

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikitech-l] Mediawiki software localisation -- OmegaT

body:
Hi Rowan,

well, I think the Neapolitan wikipedia is not too many steps away ... so
I would like to start to translate the UI using OmegaT just to create an
example. How is your feeling about this? At least we will have a "real
example" for the localisation using a CAT-Tool.

This will need some time since I will need to confirm every word with
our Neapolitan discussion group - I write some Neapolitan, but I am not
a native speaker - so it will be a collaborative work. Or should we do a
really particular thingie: use a wiki ... (additionally to the
CAT-Tool). I could do it on the Italian Wiktionary using the template
{{-mediawiki-l8n-}} and all the templates we normally use for languages
etc. so this would also be the very first project being "translated"
this way and it will immediately also be coded correctly in order to be
transferred into UW.

So it would not disturb on en.wiktionary where many would be contrary to
such a particular tentative and anyone can edit since once you are
logged in you can change UI-language to whatever you prefer.

Well, let me know your feelings about this.

Ciao, Sabine

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


subject: [Wikitech-l] Setup time for large arrays embedded in PHP code

body:
We've been curious for a while about the overhead due to array setup
time, especially in the context of language files. Although Turck caches
the bytecode, the interpreter still has to process that bytecode and
allocate the array data structures. How long does this take?

The answer is 4ms, to load both French and English messages.

Criticism of my method would be welcome, I'll present it here in full. I
used two files, slow.php:

<?php

define('MEDIAWIKI', 1);
function wfSuppressWarnings() {}
function wfRestoreWarnings() {}

$wgLanguageCode = 'fr';
$IP = '/apache/common/php-1.5';
ini_set('include_path', "$IP/languages");
require_once("$IP/languages/Language.php");

print time() . "\n";

?>

And fast.php, which is exactly the same except without the require_once:

<?php

define('MEDIAWIKI', 1);
function wfSuppressWarnings() {}
function wfRestoreWarnings() {}

$wgLanguageCode = 'fr';
$IP = '/apache/common/php-1.5';
ini_set('include_path', "$IP/languages");

print time() . "\n";

?>

Turck MMCache only works for the apache module SAPI, so I benchmarked
these two files using ab. I used hypatia, which is a 3 GHz P4. It was
otherwise idle. Here is the output:

[0625][tstarling at hypatia:~]$ ab -Xlocalhost:80 -n10000
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/benchmark/fast.php
This is ApacheBench, Version 2.0.41-dev <$Revision: 1.141 $> apache-2.0
Copyright (c) 1996 Adam Twiss, Zeus Technology Ltd, http://www.zeustech.net/
Copyright (c) 1998-2002 The Apache Software Foundation,
http://www.apache.org/

Benchmarking en.wikipedia.org [through localhost:80] (be patient)
Completed 1000 requests
Completed 2000 requests
Completed 3000 requests
Completed 4000 requests
Completed 5000 requests
Completed 6000 requests
Completed 7000 requests
Completed 8000 requests
Completed 9000 requests
Finished 10000 requests

Server Software:        Apache
Server Hostname:        en.wikipedia.org
Server Port:            80

Document Path:          /w/benchmark/fast.php
Document Length:        11 bytes

Concurrency Level:      1
Time taken for tests:   7.759175 seconds
Complete requests:      10000
Failed requests:        0
Write errors:           0
Total transferred:      1530000 bytes
HTML transferred:       110000 bytes
Requests per second:    1288.80 [#/sec] (mean)
Time per request:       0.776 [ms] (mean)
Time per request:       0.776 [ms] (mean, across all concurrent requests)
Transfer rate:          192.55 [Kbytes/sec] received

Connection Times (ms)
              min  mean[+/-sd] median   max
Connect:        0    0   0.0      0       0
Processing:     0    0  12.0      0     851
Waiting:        0    0  12.0      0     851
Total:          0    0  12.0      0     851

Percentage of the requests served within a certain time (ms)
  50%      0
  66%      0
  75%      0
  80%      0
  90%      0
  95%      0
  98%      0
  99%      0
 100%    851 (longest request)

[0628][tstarling at hypatia:/apache/common/live-1.5/benchmark]$ ab
-Xlocalhost:80 -n10000 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/benchmark/slow.php
This is ApacheBench, Version 2.0.41-dev <$Revision: 1.141 $> apache-2.0
Copyright (c) 1996 Adam Twiss, Zeus Technology Ltd, http://www.zeustech.net/
Copyright (c) 1998-2002 The Apache Software Foundation,
http://www.apache.org/

Benchmarking en.wikipedia.org [through localhost:80] (be patient)
Completed 1000 requests
Completed 2000 requests
Completed 3000 requests
Completed 4000 requests
Completed 5000 requests
Completed 6000 requests
Completed 7000 requests
Completed 8000 requests
Completed 9000 requests
Finished 10000 requests

Server Software:        Apache
Server Hostname:        en.wikipedia.org
Server Port:            80

Document Path:          /w/benchmark/slow.php
Document Length:        11 bytes

Concurrency Level:      1
Time taken for tests:   47.707920 seconds
Complete requests:      10000
Failed requests:        0
Write errors:           0
Total transferred:      1530000 bytes
HTML transferred:       110000 bytes
Requests per second:    209.61 [#/sec] (mean)
Time per request:       4.771 [ms] (mean)
Time per request:       4.771 [ms] (mean, across all concurrent requests)
Transfer rate:          31.32 [Kbytes/sec] received

Connection Times (ms)
              min  mean[+/-sd] median   max
Connect:        0    0   0.0      0       0
Processing:     4    4   0.5      4      29
Waiting:        0    4   0.5      4      28
Total:          4    4   0.5      4      29

Percentage of the requests served within a certain time (ms)
  50%      4
  66%      4
  75%      4
  80%      4
  90%      4
  95%      4
  98%      4
  99%      6
 100%     29 (longest request)


from_name: Ivan Krstic

body:
Nikola Smolenski wrote:
>>Try: $password = md5("{$user_id}-".md5($user_password));

> How much safer this exactly is than simply md5($user_password)?

It's much safer. The MD5 of the username serves as a salt, essentially
defeating the possibility of an adversary using rainbow tables
(precomputed hashes) to trivially recover the actual passwords.

-IK


from_name: Stefan Jensen

subject:
[Wikitech-l] RE: The data design for the GEMET phase (part of the
	Ultimate Wiktionary)

body:
Thanks a lot for your mail Gerard,
As I am not so on top of your technological discussions, I like to ask when it is possible to experience this implementation.
My main concern is to expose it widely as part of your open content initiative and learn how it goes with usage and in fact suggestion to alter terms/concepts or suggest new ones - in which of the many languages ever.
Any action required from our side?
Greetings and thanks a lot for all you enthusiastic work you are performing here

Stefan

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen at gmail.com]
Sent: 01 September 2005 23:50
To: wiktionary-l at wikipedia.org; Wikimedia developers
Cc: Anthere; Stefan Jensen
Subject: The data design for the GEMET phase (part of the Ultimate Wiktionary)

Hoi,
We have always planned the implementation of the GEMET thesaurus as one
of the steps in the implementation of the Ultimate Wiktionary. In some
discussions we had, we considered that it might be a better idea to
implement GEMET in a subset of the Ultimate Wiktionary in stead of in
its own datadesign. Once it has been implemented, we will be able to
learn many of the lessons we need to learn as reality shatters many
false dreams. With this implementation, we implement several of the key
functionalities of the UW. It will demonstrate the "eat your own
dogfood" idea; the words for a Languages and for a WordRelation need to
exist in order to implement their functionality and their localised
value. It also demonstrates how a thesaures can be implemented in UW, it
will show off how we can have relations between different meanings.

The one thing I however like best is, that it demonstrates the core
functionality of Ultimate Wiktionary much better. The data design for
this is much easier to understand. The absolute core functionality
however is without the Collection, the CollectionLanguage and the
CollectionMeaning tables. These are needed for the implementation of GEMET.

As it is a subset, it does not have many of the features that will exist
in the full blown version of the UW. These can however be added one at a
time. This allows for more frequent updates and this will propably lead
to much more excitement as we will have more often new features to show.

More info can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject:
[Wiktionary-l] RE: The data design for the GEMET phase (part of the
	Ultimate Wiktionary)


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 02/09/05, Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/2/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > In light of the Katrina disaster and the competing appeals for aid for the
> > victims there, should we consider suspending the Wikimedia Foundation
> > funding drive for a time?
> >
> > Or do we consider the two causes different enough that it should continue as
> > scheduled?
>
> We're doing our part by providing accessible, neutral, and up-to-date
> information about the disaster. The extra traffic costs money...

I've not seen any complaints about the fund drive - but would you
believe someone complained about having the Hurricane Katrina article
linked from /In The News/ on the front page? The mind, she boggles.

For what it's worth, income over the past few days to the fund drive
has been roughly constant. I'd say that indicates it isn't in direct
competition in any way; were we holding a drive for $random_charity,
then perhaps.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Setup time for large arrays embedded in PHP code

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> We've been curious for a while about the overhead due to array setup
> time, especially in the context of language files. Although Turck caches
> the bytecode, the interpreter still has to process that bytecode and
> allocate the array data structures. How long does this take?
>
> The answer is 4ms, to load both French and English messages.
>
> Criticism of my method would be welcome, I'll present it here in full. I
> used two files, slow.php:
>
> <?php
>
> define('MEDIAWIKI', 1);
> function wfSuppressWarnings() {}
> function wfRestoreWarnings() {}
>
> $wgLanguageCode = 'fr';
> $IP = '/apache/common/php-1.5';
> ini_set('include_path', "$IP/languages");
> require_once("$IP/languages/Language.php");
>
> print time() . "\n";
>
> ?>
>
>
> And fast.php, which is exactly the same except without the require_once:
>
> <?php
>
> define('MEDIAWIKI', 1);
> function wfSuppressWarnings() {}
> function wfRestoreWarnings() {}
>
> $wgLanguageCode = 'fr';
> $IP = '/apache/common/php-1.5';
> ini_set('include_path', "$IP/languages");
>
> print time() . "\n";
>
> ?>

Can you use another script that just require a dummy file aka having
require_once("$IP/languages/dummy.php");

with dummy.php having '<?php ?>' for content ? Might get you an idea of
require_once overhead.

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
IM: hashar at jabber.org  ICQ: 15325080


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Michael Turley wrote:

>In light of the Katrina disaster and the competing appeals for aid for the
>victims there, should we consider suspending the Wikimedia Foundation
>funding drive for a time?
>
>Or do we consider the two causes different enough that it should continue as
>scheduled?
>
Life goes on.  It is up to each individual to determine his own
priorities, and whether he wants to contribute to one or both or neither
cause.  Competing appeals have always and will always be there.  The
enormity of the Katrina disaster just happens to draw more publicity
than others of that type with smaller but more frequent footprints

Ec.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocked IP Address 204.187.140.114

body:
David Smith wrote:
> The IP address above that you have blocked is that of a public school
> board consisting of 91 schools.
> Could an administrator please contact me with respect to the numerous
> reported deletions.
> I would like to follow up on the content that was posted by  one or more
> of our students.
>
> Dave Smith
> Technical Application Support Specialist - Classroom Support
> 742 9773 ext 2372
>

I'll contact David privately about the technical aspects of this issue.

-- Tim Starling


body:
On 02/09/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:

> > For what it's worth, income over the past few days to the fund drive
> > has been roughly constant. I'd say that indicates it isn't in direct
> > competition in any way; were we holding a drive for $random_charity,
> > then perhaps.
>
> OK. I see our value here as pointed out by Fredrik Johansson.

For what it's worth, I regularly hear Wikipedia praised in situations
like this. It's not quite what the project is intended for, but it
works damn well at it.

> I hope no one thinks I was suggesting that we're wrong to continue the
> scheduled drive. I was listening to a report of the lack of effective relief
> efforts while reading Wikipedia's article on Katrina, and noticed our appeal
> at the top of the page and I suddenly felt very small. On reflection, even
> the goal for our drive is very small as well.

Looking at the figures we have had a bit of a drop-off - the figures
for the 1st weren't summarised so I missed them - but given we note
the scope (both in time and money) of the drive...

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Fredrik Johansson

body:
On 9/2/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
> In light of the Katrina disaster and the competing appeals for aid for the
> victims there, should we consider suspending the Wikimedia Foundation
> funding drive for a time?
>
> Or do we consider the two causes different enough that it should continue as
> scheduled?

We're doing our part by providing accessible, neutral, and up-to-date
information about the disaster. The extra traffic costs money...

--
Fredrik Johansson
http://fredrikj.net


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Encarta article list

body:
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David Gerard wrote:
> Zachary Harden (zscout370 at hotmail.com) [050829 01:19]:
>
>>From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
>
>
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Encarta_Encyclopedia_topics
>
>
>>>Please delete this list immediately.  Opinions of our legal team are
>>>divided about the issue, and I feel that in a case like this,
>>>conservatism and caution are called for.
>
>
>>Due to the above message from Jimbo, and taking no chances, I went ahead
>>and deleted the Encyclop?dia Britannica 2004 list, which was designed in a
>>similiar fashion to the Encarta list. I am not sure what other lists can
>>go, but I think we should not take chances with them if the WMF legal are
>>having issues.
>
>
>
> If xsomeone could email these pages to me (to dgerard at gmail dot com by
> preference), I will put them up in private web space of my own and say
> "fuck 'em".
>

I also would be willing to host a mirror offsite; send it to alphasigmax
at gmail dot com with "Wikipedia" in the subject :)

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
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from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [Foundation-l] We made it !!!!!!

body:
On 9/2/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> We are in first page of Le Monde, with several pages included inside.
> Le Monde is the *first* newspaper in France. This is an amazing day.

C'est fantastique! :-)

C


subject: [Foundation-l] We made it !!!!!!


subject: [Wikitech-l] lopar DNS entries have to be changed

body:
Hi list!

David Monniaux and I will have to move the french servers (change a
change of bay) tomorrow from 9:00 CEST. I'd like the corresponding DNS
entries to be changed to redirect the traffic to somewhere else. Could
someone do this as soon as possible as i'd like to perform some
maintenance on the servers.

Thank you very much,

M?d?ric

PS: please CC the answer as i'm not subscribed to the list.

Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ;
3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn)


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] We made it !!!!!!

body:
We are in first page of Le Monde, with several pages included inside.
Le Monde is the *first* newspaper in France. This is an amazing day.

http://www.lemonde.fr/

Anthere


subject: [Foundation-l] We made it !!!!!!


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: any plans to run on PHP 5?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> I _think_ we've got all the 4.4.0 reference-handling kinks worked out in
> 1.5/HEAD now, so I would not object to that. Might be worth a quick home
> benchmark first though.

If I understand the release notes correctly, PHP 4.4.0 gives notices
whereas PHP 4.3.11 just silently corrupted the heap. So it's not
necessary to fix all the new notices before we upgrade. Rather, we
should upgrade PHP ASAP and encourage MediaWiki users (especially users
of old MW versions) to do the same.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: valdelli at bluemail.ch

subject: [Foundation-l] We made it !!!!!!

body:
Yes, for the French people. :)

Ilario

>
>We are in first page of Le Monde, with several pages included inside.
>Le Monde is the *first* newspaper in France. This is an amazing day.
>


subject: [Foundation-l] We made it !!!!!!


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: We made it !!!!!!

body:
valdelli at bluemail.ch wrote:
> Yes, for the French people. :)
>
> Ilario

No. Not really. Not only for french people. Each time we have a major
media display in a country, the *whole* project directly or indirectly
benefit from it.

I have been on Wikipedia for now 3 years and a half, and for all this
time, I have been dreaming on us having an article in Le Monde. We had
once a tiny little report in the cultural section. Very little impact.
But here, we are featured on first page.

The impact of this is likely to be huge, because it means a sort of
recognition. In particular we can expect
1) more fear from all those we are currently in competition with, so
possibly more attacks
2) but mostly more interest from potential partners, be it firms,
organisations, associations, academics etc...

The implications might be various. Possibly an impact on the publication
of a DVD (which might be interesting for more than just french people).
Possibly a partnership for publication of wikireaders (and similarly,
why would we limit that to french language ?). Possibly a lever to
negociate with organisations such as ESA, which would benefit all of us.
And quite possibly as well, more donations, since we are currently in
the middle of a fund drive (more money will benefit all of us).

We are together in this Ilario. Not just french, or just italian ;-)

ant

>>We are in first page of Le Monde, with several pages included inside.
>>Le Monde is the *first* newspaper in France. This is an amazing day.
>>


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: We made it !!!!!!


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Amruta Lonkar schrieb:

>Hi,
>
>I am trying to enhance the wikimedia syntax to include a simple easy to use
>citation format.
>

Did you look at my citation extension ("extensions" module in CVS)? It
lists citations/footnotes/etc at the end of the page.

Magnus
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subject: [Foundation-l] Re: We made it !!!!!!

body:
Yes, I know. This is the good moment (also here in Swiss and in Italy), but
the newspapers always are finding news... when the news are not new, this
the moment to kill the old news :)

Finally, I think that bad moments will follow. This is the moment to contact
the journalists who write these articles and to offer the availability for
new informations. This is the moment to construct references and links to
manage the next steps.

Ilario

>-- Messaggio originale --
>To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>From: Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com>
>Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:39:01 +0200
>Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: We made it !!!!!!
>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
>
>
>valdelli at bluemail.ch wrote:
>> Yes, for the French people. :)
>>
>> Ilario
>
>No. Not really. Not only for french people. Each time we have a major
>media display in a country, the *whole* project directly or indirectly
>benefit from it.
>
>I have been on Wikipedia for now 3 years and a half, and for all this
>time, I have been dreaming on us having an article in Le Monde. We had
>once a tiny little report in the cultural section. Very little impact.
>But here, we are featured on first page.
>
>The impact of this is likely to be huge, because it means a sort of
>recognition. In particular we can expect
>1) more fear from all those we are currently in competition with, so
>possibly more attacks
>2) but mostly more interest from potential partners, be it firms,
>organisations, associations, academics etc...
>
>The implications might be various. Possibly an impact on the publication
>
>of a DVD (which might be interesting for more than just french people).

>Possibly a partnership for publication of wikireaders (and similarly,
>why would we limit that to french language ?). Possibly a lever to
>negociate with organisations such as ESA, which would benefit all of us.
>And quite possibly as well, more donations, since we are currently in
>the middle of a fund drive (more money will benefit all of us).
>
>We are together in this Ilario. Not just french, or just italian ;-)
>
>ant
>
>
>>>We are in first page of Le Monde, with several pages included inside.
>>>Le Monde is the *first* newspaper in France. This is an amazing day.
>>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: We made it !!!!!!


from_name: Angela

body:
> Google miscategorizes the language of some of the Hungarian Wikipedia
> pages. E.g. it thinks that our Adolf Hitler article is in czech.

How do you know they are miscategorising the language?

<http://www.google.com/search?q=inurl%3A%22Adolf+Hitler%22+site%3Ahu.wikipedia.org>

This makes it seem like they haven't indexed the page at all, not that
they've marked it as the wrong language.

Angela.


from_name: Heiko Evermann

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Spell checking in MediaWiki

body:
Hi Gerard
> What you call a design bug is in actual fact a design feature.  One
> point that you are missing is that the meaning of a word spelled the
> same between dialects may be different. This is exactly one reason why
> this duplication is needed. The same is true for etymology; when a word
> is used for a first time in THAT orthography or dialect may be different
> as well, it may arrive from another dialect and not from another language..
No Gerard, this is only needed when there really *is* such a difference. You
force us to duplicate our entries even where it is not needed at all.

Besides: to my understanding the question of American English vs. British
English has not been answered. I do see the same problem there. It is the
same problem in the word entries and in the definitions.

Heiko


body:
Hi Mark,
> Ahh, but Gerard, the words have the same origins, even if you spell
> them differently.
>
> So Sass will spell it "greutens", and AS will spell it "groytens", but
> they both have the same origin, and the same translations.

Thanks a lot for this remark.

Kind regards,

Heiko


from_name: steve v

subject: [WikiEN-l] Looking at the real world

body:
Though Ive had little interest in particularly normal
cases, I read a bunch of the Skyring ruling. The
Arbcom decision seems a bit rash --to foff off some
lucky punter for a year just for a little rudish
pov-warring?

Yeah Skyring was pov-pushing, and ban on certain
articles is indeed justified. But a complete ban for a
full year? While others are simply "admonished"? Duffy
and Carr arent exactly known for their perennial and
soothing pleasantness, (Uncle Ed?) so that leaves
critical thinkers like myself to wonder what the
actual deal is. I suppose its just to clamp down on
sockpuppetry and send a message.

Is "no wiki-stalking" even a policy? Cause thats what
people seem to do all around anyway. Skyring seems to
have a basis for some review of the latest ruling,
though I suppose people will want him to demonstrate
patience and heed to the rules. (In spite of WP:IAR,
no doubt). Was something else going on there, or did
he just kind of rub people the wrong way by being a
pov-pushing smart alec?

SV

--- Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:

> I would have a hard time using this to justify the
> publication of
> someone's personal information on Wikipedia.  If it
> were some serious
> alleged crime, such as death threats, perhaps that
> would be warranted,
> but evading a ban doesn't rise to the level where I
> would be comfortable
> "outing" people.  At least during the period when I
> was on the ArbCom,
> when we used evidence of people's real identies or
> even IPs to ban
> sockpuppets and reincarnations, we didn't publish
> that evidence publicly
> on the wiki.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: John Grohol

subject: [Wikitech-l] Parsing new XML dumps into the db?

body:
Hi, excuse my ignorance... But after searching for information on this for
the past 2 hours, I can't seem to find any FAQ or simple instruction set on
what to do with with the new XML dumps provided at
http://download.wikimedia.org/
 The sole link provided on the page mentions nothing of the new XML format,
or what to do with it. Searching through this mailing list hasn't shed much
more light. Any help would be very much appreciated (even a pointer to a
page that explains how to import these files into a 1.3.x or 1.4.xsystem...)!
 Thanks,
John


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: We made it !!!!!!

body:
Anthere wrote:
> We are in first page of Le Monde, with several pages included inside.
> Le Monde is the *first* newspaper in France. This is an amazing day.
>
> http://www.lemonde.fr/
>
> Anthere

Is that only on the website or also on "la une" of the paper version ?

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
IM: hashar at jabber.org  ICQ: 15325080


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: We made it !!!!!!


from_name: Dariusz Siedlecki

subject: [Foundation-l] We made it !!!!!!

body:
2005/9/2, Anthere <anthere9(at)yahoo.com>:
> We are in first page of Le Monde, with several pages included inside.
> Le Monde is the *first* newspaper in France. This is an amazing day.

Congratulations on behalf of the Polish Wikipedia (which will hit 100k
articles this month ;).

> Anthere

--
Pozdrawiam,
Dariusz "Datrio" Siedlecki


subject: [Foundation-l] We made it !!!!!!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] (no subject)

body:
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Phroziac wrote:
> billgates at microsoft.com
>
> On 2 Sep 2005 12:00:29 -0000, bibin babu <your_bibin at rediffmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>kenniferdinand at hotmail.com

toppostingisevil at ietf.org

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
John Grohol wrote:
> Hi, excuse my ignorance... But after searching for information on this for
> the past 2 hours, I can't seem to find any FAQ or simple instruction set on
> what to do with with the new XML dumps provided at
> http://download.wikimedia.org/
>  The sole link provided on the page mentions nothing of the new XML format,
> or what to do with it. Searching through this mailing list hasn't shed much
> more light.

Well, you can do anything you like with it. ;) The XML source should be
pretty self-explanatory about its contents; you should also find a
description of the format at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Export

If you want to import it into a MediaWiki 1.5 instance, the currently
canonical way would be:

* Install a fresh wiki running MediaWiki 1.5rc4.
* Set up AdminSettings.php if necessary; command-line access is required.
* Pipe the file to importDump.php:
gzip -dc pages_full.xml.gz | php importDump.php

> Any help would be very much appreciated (even a pointer to a
> page that explains how to import these files into a 1.3.x or 1.4.xsystem...)!

I've been working on a utility for filtering the XML backup dump files;
it'll be used as part of our backup procedure for creating filtered
dumps as well as the complete ones.

For extra fun I've included an output mode to generate SQL statements in
1.4 or 1.5 schema which could be then read into an already-initialized
database.

At the moment this is command-line only, and the SQL mode is basically
completely untested. In the future it should be better tested and I may
add a GUI front-end and a helper for creating and initializing a database.

The tool is written in C# and runs on the cross-platform Mono runtime,
and should also run on .NET 1.1 if you're a Microsoft person. As it's
new I don't have a binary release yet, but source and a makefile for
compiling with Mono are in our CVS repository:

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia/mwdumper/

You might run it something like this:
gzip -dc pages_full.xml.gz | mono mwdumper.exe --format=sql:1.4 > curold.sql

Then import the SQL into an installed MediaWiki 1.4 database. (The cur
and old tables should be _empty_ at this point; if using the installer
there will be data in there, so delete it first.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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