body:
OK. I'll try to follow the guidelines suggested on that URL.

Thank you very much, Ashar.

2005/8/16, Ashar Voultoiz <hashar at altern.org>:
> Aitor Lazkano wrote:
> > OK. I'm to translate 'LanguageEs.php' (from Spanish) and create
> > 'LanguageEu.php'
> > (following ISO 639 Language Codes).
> >
> > I'm working with the files from 'mediawiki-1.5beta4', the last version
> > available. As
> > soon as I finish it, I report it to you.
> >
> > See u.
>
> Please read the guide I have made on:
>  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_localisation
>
> I also made a stub for LanguageEu and added it to cvs repository:
>   http://noc.wikimedia.org/~hashar/LanguageEu.phps
>
>
> Obiously, reusing LanguageEs.php will be fine :)
>
>
> --
> Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
> http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
> IM: hashar at jabber.org  ICQ: 15325080
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Ryan W. (Merovingian)

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Welcoming Peter C. Wayner and...

body:
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Url: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20050816/fe8d1ff6/attachment.diff


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Boris Lohnzweiger

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Poll so far

body:
The poll is surely a step in the right direction but the voting itself really is a bit obsure. When I cast my vote - having read the instructions twice - I was pretty sure to ballot only on Cantonese (creation "right away") and Wu (creation "in the near future"). The way I got it the poll was not supposed to make a decision on any other Sinitic languages ("not exclude the possibility of Wikipedias in other Sinitic languages", i. e. a neutral attitude). Now, however, some users extend their vote to other languages. IMHO we should only count votes for Cantonese and Wu here.

Boris

wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 16.08.05 03:47:29:

Hi all,

The current results of the poll on Sinitic linguistic policy at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_Sinitic_linguistic_policy
:

25 support - 6 oppose (overall)

Some people expressed support or lack thereof for other
Sinitic-language Wikipedias, mostly Wu, Hakka, and Classical Chinese.

The voting instructions say that if you only want to support one of
them, but not the others, you should note it with your vote.

I don't know if people followed these instructions exactly, but if they did:

One person explicitly supported Cantonese and Wu but didn't support
Hakka, making the balance for Hakka:

24 support - 7 oppose.

One person who voted in the "oppose" section, noted that although they
are opposed to Wikipedias in Cantonese, Wu, and Hakka, they support a
Wikipedia in Classical Chinese.

I would like to close with a quote from that page from Jogloran, which
to me indicates the true nessecity for these Wikipedias:

"And one more thing. My mother tongue is Cantonese, not Mandarin, not
'Chinese', but specifically Cantonese. When I read through the sample
articles in Cantonese linked above, I was struck by how much clearer
it was to my mind. When I read a text written in standard language, it
takes a little longer for the exact meaning to become apparent."

Cheers
Mark
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________________
Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Ryan W. (Merovingian) wrote:

>[...] there's no way to differentiate between accounts made for the purpose of good, and those made for the purpose of evil.
>
Clearly we need developers to make an addition to the login creation
screen!

  Please indicate the purpose of this account:
  [*] Good
  [ ] Evil

I suppose one could argue that there should be a
"Neutral" option too, and that everybody must choose it.

:-)

Stan


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] "brittle"

body:
I think this is a great word to describe the phenomenon we are talking
about.  It's very easy to stereotype such people as being trolls or
deliberate troublemakers, but it's hard to reconcile that with the
amount of good work they also do.

Something which is brittle can also be beautiful and functional.  Handle
with care. :-)  The only problem with brittle people is that they don't
bend, they break.  So the rough and tumble of social interaction on
Wikipedia can often deteriorate very quickly in a way that less brittle
people have a hard time understanding.  Moral condemnation comes easily
to hand, but it isn't always appropriate, and in any event is rarely
productive.

As with many others who have answered David Gerard's original post, I
have no answers, but I think the question of how we can better serve
such people is a great one.

--Jimbo


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] correction of errors in articles

body:
Walter van Kalken wrote:

> Sabine Cretella wrote:
>
>> This is a general question - did I mention your name?
>>
>> And as I said before: I am not going to discuss things again - I am
>> already in contact with some Palttd??tsch authors that publish
>> liteature and articles in low saxon. There are more than just some
>> writings.
>
>
> You are going the Node way now? Everytime someone discusses something
> with him he comes up with these mysterious off-wiki "experts" who he
> quotes. I really would like it if you could solve it with the people
> who are on-wiki if there is a problem. They are the people you work
> together with. They ARE the community within wikimedia. Not some
> outsiders who feel having to comment but not work together is a great
> thing to do.

Well actually there is one major difference; Sabine is writing to
universities, publishers and authors. She is asking genuine authorities
on their opinion on the nds language. The turf battle is mainly one
being fought in the Wiktionary space and here the rules are quite
different from in the Wikipedia space. In Wiktionary we want all
correctly spelled words in all languages. If there are some 200
orthographies, then that is just a fact we have to live with. When the
nds.wikipedia decides to only allow one orthography, then this is up to
them. Only allowing words in one orthography in Wiktionary is a
completely different kettle of fish. This is not what Wiktionary is
supposed to be. If this means that words that are not spelled in a known
orthography by an editor are to be deleted, it is not acceptable when
these words have a provenance. The one way of resolving this is by
specifying what orthography a word belongs to. When this is not know, it
will have to wait untill someone comes along who does know.

When we ask an outsider to work with us on this issue, we ask them to
join our community. To dismiss their obvious authority because they are
newbies to Wiki is foolish; they can make a difference when we are the
welcoming crowd we say we are. Making a reference to Mark is a cheap
shot; he has been toning down and the quality of his contributions is
rising as a result. There is a need for some scholarship when it comes
to languages certainly for Wiktionary and Ultimate Wiktionary. We will
have some hard fights ahead of us. The essence is to provide a great
lexicological resource and make it as usefull as possible. Many of these
fights will occur because people just do not understand what we try to
achieve. It is therefore essential to leave people their dignity and
their self worth and discuss what we are trying to do and how we are
doinng this: provide Free information in all languages to all people

>
> And yes you DO need to discuss things things with fellow wikimedians.
> They are the ones you work with, not some John Doe's
>
>> Who is taking things from private to public is not me. On nds you can
>> do whatever you want as long as the community supports you. You can
>> use Werner's list as long as it is according to GFDL and he is
>> mentioned as the author. I am going down to the basis as I don't like
>> to go ahead by "xyz told me".
>
>
> You are telling him that also. XYZ told me .....
>
XYZ has a function here: it is not to publicly say who is saying things
that are not substantiated. By going to sources the point of view will
be substantiated. This will create a NPOV.

>>
>>
>> I am going ahead with universities, writers and the institute for
>> lower saxon language I suppose this should be fine when it comes to
>> credibility - and this is what you are trying to destroy - and I
>> really don't like that.
>
>
> He is not destroying anything. These outsiders are welcome to discuss
> this themselves. I always hate discussion by proxy. and when people
> come up with all kinds of mysterious friends to which others have to
> bow because of their "alleged" expertise.

We are not talking "mysterious friends" here: they will be names like
Professor ABS of the XYZ university. To indicate their expertise they
will be named things like "professor in linguistics" that is a proper
way to indicate their expertise.

>
>> On the one word you told me by e-mail that was a hundred percent
>> error turned out to be used 186 times on the internet (I have a
>> screenshot of google if you don't believe it) and I found the writer
>> who used it in her texts - she's a reporter for a newspaper in North
>> Germany and has been writing articles in Pattd??tsch vor over 13
>> years for them now. I also contacted her to ask her how to categorise
>> her writings.
>
>
> Another mysterious supporting source.

You can ask for the name of this writer; it can be given.

>
>> So: anything is out of discussion here. I am not going let me impose
>> things by anyone, I prefer research and adapt the contents we have to
>> that..
>
>
> And Heiko is not going to let you impose things upon him. Editwar anyone?

When Heiko is to ignore substantiated facts, he will make what he does
in the Wiktionary world irrelevant. This would not be about ediwars. I
do not expect that Heiko will get into an editwar as there is a perfect
solution and that is using proper labelling. When Heiko indicates words
to be according to the Sass orthography or whatever Heiko orthography
knows, his work will be most relevant. There are plenty possible
solutions here.

>
>> Remeber: it is not a nice thing to take things to public only since
>> you presume I was talking about you -
>
>
> It is not a nice thing to ask community help and only paint half of
> the picture, if you take things public name him/her so they got a
> chance to present their side of the argument. It has been done to me a
> couple of times by another wiktionarian and close friend of yours.
>
What is the point of your sniping at me ?? If you want to know how
things are you can ask. If you want to put forward your side of an
argument you can do so. I do publish about my point of view all the
time. I do use some of the great ideas that you put forward and I make a
point of it to state that they are yours. This continued whining does
not help you. If you want to talk do so. If you want to convince me
about certain things convince me. If you want to make a point research
your facts because that will give you more credence and it will convince
me about /your /good intentions.

>> I did not once mention your name and what I had/still have is a
>> general question - it does not happen the first time that people know
>> how to improve things, but just complain about others not doing as
>> the writer supposes - and talking about wikis: this is not the way to
>> go and that's it. It is a very general question. If you need proofs
>> for that: they are there in the histories.
>
>
> If someone contents something you should listen to them and go in a
> discussion. Not just boldly go on and add the stuff elsewhere!

Here you show that you do not apreciate what Wiktionary is about; every
wiktionary is about all words in all languages. Therefore it is
completely acceptable to add this content in the Italian Wiktionary.

Thanks,
    GerardM


list: foundation-l

from_name: Dan Grey

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: Wikimania 2006 - host city contest to open
	onSeptember 1st 20

body:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
>(and the jury will take this into account)

Who is this jury, and who put them in charge?

Dan


list: wikimedia-l


body:
Delphine M?nard notafishz at gmail.com wrote:
> The city contest will go on for a month and a half, and a shortlist of
> three cities will be decided upon on October 15th. From then,
> Shortlisted cities will have to answer the board/organisation
> committee's specific questions within 2 weeks. Official selection for
> the "winning" city will happen on November 1st 2005.

1. Who decided this
2. Why so long
3. The chances of still being able to book a 500 person capacity venue
for August 2006 in Britain in the November before is minimal. I would
be somewhat suprised if was different for anywhere else in the world.

Dan


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk

body:
W. Guy Finley wgfinley at dynascope.com wrote:
>
> Now I spent some time in public service which is a bit similar to the
> Foundation now and there's things you do in public and things that you
> don't.  As a board member criticizing one of your officers point blank in
> public puts egg on that officer's face and makes your organization look like
> it engages in open infighting.  I would have suggested a more discrete
> method of discourse on this up front.  Now, if that doesn't settle things,
> by all means, gore each other in public but as it stands this entire
> exchange and the constant back and forth makes the organization look bad.  I
> think some need to take a step back, a deep breath, ask themselves exactly
> what this disagreement is regarding in the first place and try to go from
> there.
>
>--Guy  (en User:Wgfinley)

Hear hear. I hope the board reads this and has a good long think about it.

Dan


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Techtalk


from_name: Jerome Jamnicky

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Research access to logs

body:
Tobias Denninger wrote:
> Hello..
>
> ..I think it could be useful to compute the probability an article B is read on
> condition that another article A is read whithin a short timeframe before from a
> specific reader. Based on this probabilities suggestions could be made to the
> reader of a specific article which articles could be also interesting (maybe a
> kind of collaborative filtering or Amazon's "Customers who bought this book also
> bought.."). Subscribed user could offered personalized recommendations based on
> the computation how probable it is that an article is of interest to that
> specific user who read those articles. I'd be interested in implementing that
> idea, so as a first step I'd be interested in a sample log file with a size of
> some Megabyte.
>
> Tobias
>

If you haven't already, please read the privacy policy carefully, and
also this thread, where somebody made a similar request for a similar
purpose:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-July/thread.html#30917

A single line from one of the squid server log files looks like this:

1124167686.523    210 12.34.56.78 TCP_MISS/200 2962 GET
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Potato&go=Go -
PARENT_HIT/207.142.131.200 text/html [Host:
en.wikipedia.org\r\nUser-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1;
en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050716 Firefox/1.0.6\r\nAccept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5\r\nAccept-Language:
en-us,en;q=0.5\r\nAccept-Encoding: gzip,deflate\r\nAccept-Charset:
ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7\r\nKeep-Alive: 300\r\nConnection:
keep-alive\r\nReferer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoterica\r\n]
[HTTP/1.0 200 OK\r\nDate: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 04:48:06 GMT\r\nServer:
Apache\r\nX-Powered-By: PHP/4.3.11\r\nContent-language: en\r\nVary:
Accept-Encoding,Cookie\r\nExpires: -1\r\nCache-Control: private,
must-revalidate, max-age=0\r\nContent-Encoding: gzip\r\nConnection:
close\r\nContent-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8\r\n\r]

Note that this format may change in the future.  Is there anything else
you need to know?

-Jerome

----
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Poll so far

body:
You're quite right Boris what it says.

I'd forgotten.

But, I do not think we should ignore it if people vote explicitly for
the creation of further Sinitic Wikipedias, such as Hakka, Classical
Chinese, or even others which have not been contemplated much such as
Jin or Gan.

However, it certainly makes sense that unless people make it explicit
that they support or oppose more than just the exact proposal, we
should count them as supporting (or opposing) Cantonese [immediate]
and Wu [near future] only.

Cheers
Mark

On 16/08/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
>
> The poll is surely a step in the right direction but the voting itself really is a bit obsure. When I cast my vote - having read the instructions twice - I was pretty sure to ballot only on Cantonese (creation "right away") and Wu (creation "in the near future"). The way I got it the poll was not supposed to make a decision on any other Sinitic languages ("not exclude the possibility of Wikipedias in other Sinitic languages", i. e. a neutral attitude). Now, however, some users extend their vote to other languages. IMHO we should only count votes for Cantonese and Wu here.
>
> Boris
>
>
> wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 16.08.05 03:47:29:
>
> Hi all,
>
> The current results of the poll on Sinitic linguistic policy at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_Sinitic_linguistic_policy
> :
>
> 25 support - 6 oppose (overall)
>
> Some people expressed support or lack thereof for other
> Sinitic-language Wikipedias, mostly Wu, Hakka, and Classical Chinese.
>
> The voting instructions say that if you only want to support one of
> them, but not the others, you should note it with your vote.
>
> I don't know if people followed these instructions exactly, but if they did:
>
> One person explicitly supported Cantonese and Wu but didn't support
> Hakka, making the balance for Hakka:
>
> 24 support - 7 oppose.
>
> One person who voted in the "oppose" section, noted that although they
> are opposed to Wikipedias in Cantonese, Wu, and Hakka, they support a
> Wikipedia in Classical Chinese.
>
> I would like to close with a quote from that page from Jogloran, which
> to me indicates the true nessecity for these Wikipedias:
>
> "And one more thing. My mother tongue is Cantonese, not Mandarin, not
> 'Chinese', but specifically Cantonese. When I read through the sample
> articles in Cantonese linked above, I was struck by how much clearer
> it was to my mind. When I read a text written in standard language, it
> takes a little longer for the exact meaning to become apparent."
>
> Cheers
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
> Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Is there any translation to Basque started?

body:
Some examples:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageHsb.php (Upper Sorbian, which
doesn't have a Wikipedia yet)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageGot.php (Gothic, translation in
progress, no sysops on got.wiki)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageBsd.php (Baseldytsch, the
Wikipedia will probably never be created but that doesn't mean there's
never going to be a use for the file)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageSc.php (Sardinian, translation
still in progress)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageMn.php (Mongolian, translation
in progress, no sysops on mn.wiki)

I don't see why anybody feels the need to wipe these files.

Mark

On 16/08/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Ashar,
>
> Please do not wipe them.
>
> They are still very useful. Obviously, they're not up-to-date, but
> some of them are for Wikipedias which aren't created, or don't have
> sysops, or have translations which haven't been used yet.
>
> Mark
>
> On 16/08/05, Ashar Voultoiz <hashar at altern.org> wrote:
> > Mark Williamson wrote:
> > > Hi Aitor,
> > >
> > > There is a translation at
> > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageEu.php , although I don't think
> > > it's for the currentversion.
> >
> > I am going to wipe the various Languages files available on meta. They
> > are not up to date and we (developers) prefers to use the
> > special:allmessages from wikipedia.
> >
> > The Eureska wikipedia got some messages translated:
> >   http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Allmessages
> >
> > > It's also not on CVS.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure which language file the Basque Wikipedia uses, but their
> > > default interface is completely translated.
> >
> > Actually it uses the english language file. I will create a default
> > language file, will probably not make it inherit from spanish or basque
> > people might be angry :)
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > --
> > Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
> > http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
> > IM: hashar at jabber.org  ICQ: 15325080
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Pawe³ 'Ausir' Dembowski

body:
> What about Australia - home of Tim Starling among many others - or
> even NZ if for some reason we are wanting to only hold these things in
> developed countries. But i dont see what is wrong with the idea of
> Brazil, India, SA, Argentina or somewhere similar. There are a
> reasonable number of wikimedians in the larger countries in the global
> south.

Well, in my opinion it would be better if Wikimania was organized in a
country where a local Wikimedia chapter exists. For now we only have
such chapters in Europe, although I hope we'll get more of them in
other continents as well.

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org


body:
> You are going the Node way now? Everytime someone discusses something
> with him he comes up with these mysterious off-wiki "experts" who he
> quotes. I really would like it if you could solve it with the people who
> are on-wiki if there is a problem. They are the people you work together
> with. They ARE the community within wikimedia. Not some outsiders who
> feel having to comment but not work together is a great thing to do.

Excuse me!!!?

As Gerard said, this is a cheap shot.

Gerard and I have had our fair share of disagreements, but I have not
known him to be sour towards me by default, or to accuse people of
doing things "the Node way".

You've said before that you're worried about the Nauruan Wikipedia...
did you apply for adminship there? Well, I'm worried about it too, and
I did apply for adminship.

There is nothing wrong with citing experts. If I ask some expert on
psychology whether or not the English Wikipedia's article on paranoid
scizophrenia is right, and he tells me what the problems are and how
we can fix it, I think that his word should certainly count for more
than the two Wikipedians who disagree with him but have no
credentials, if they're right, they may find their own experts to ask.

Even Heiko Evermann, with whom I don't exactly have a nice
relationship, didn't stoop as low as have you by accusing someone
(publicly, at that) of doing it "the Node way".

Hartlich greuten,
Mark


from_name: Heiko Evermann

subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] correction of errors in articles

body:
Hi Gerard,

slowly I am beginning to be fed up with this discussion. I ask you
not to misrepresent my position any longer.

> >> On the one word you told me by e-mail that was a hundred percent
> >> error turned out to be used 186 times on the internet (I have a
> >> screenshot of google if you don't believe it) and I found the writer
> >> who used it in her texts - she's a reporter for a newspaper in North
> >> Germany and has been writing articles in Pattd??tsch vor over 13
> >> years for them now. I also contacted her to ask her how to categorise
> >> her writings.
> >
> >
> > Another mysterious supporting source.
>
> You can ask for the name of this writer; it can be given.
Please list this word, please name this writer, so that we can discuss this
one item in detail. I
had listed several gravely misspelled words (according to all spellings that
I know of), so please tell us which one of them you are
referring here. Please name your sources. You could e.g. cite any dictionary
whatsoever to prove your point. I have given details. I can show you several
dictionaries that support my spelling. You so far have given 0. In words
*ZERO*. That is not enough.
Besides you have not even given any information about the origin of the
list.
We know which web site it is from, but from the misspellings in
capitalization
it is clear that it is derived from a text. I would really like to know
which text that is. The problem is that you so far have not done anything
to underly your claims with any credible source. Again: citing one website
that is mirrored to some other places is circular reasoning, but no proof.
Again: wiktionary is not a dump for all the misspellings in the world. You
would
not get through with that in any other wiktionary.

> >> So: anything is out of discussion here. I am not going let me impose
> >> things by anyone, I prefer research and adapt the contents we have to
> >> that..
Now the thing is that you wanted to impose things on us. Besides you created
facts
by importing this list into it.wiktionary.org. A list that is highly
suspicious.

> When Heiko is to ignore substantiated facts, he will make what he does
> in the Wiktionary world irrelevant. This would not be about ediwars. I
> do not expect that Heiko will get into an editwar as there is a perfect
> solution and that is using proper labelling. When Heiko indicates words
> to be according to the Sass orthography or whatever Heiko orthography
> knows, his work will be most relevant. There are plenty possible
> solutions here.
No Gerard, *you* have not delivered substantiated facts. Why haven't you
done that
all along. This discussion has been going on for several weeks now. And your
only
argument is that you found this spelling somewhere on the internet and
therefore
it is a valid spelling. You could of course try to import all this data with
the tag
"very private spelling of xy", but then I really have ask who should profit
from that?
Low Saxon is in a bad shape nowadays. And an nds.wiktionary.org needs to
present data
that reflect actual current usage of words and not private spellings. If
there should be
a place for very private spellings in wiktionary or UW, then certainly
*after* inserting
the real, current use as substantiated by dictionaries etc. of whatever
spelling. What I have been doing is cleaning up (as can be seen in
nds.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges). And I do think that this has
helped to make the data a lot more relevant.

> >> I did not once mention your name and what I had/still have is a
> >> general question - it does not happen the first time that people know
> >> how to improve things, but just complain about others not doing as
> >> the writer supposes - and talking about wikis: this is not the way to
> >> go and that's it. It is a very general question. If you need proofs
> >> for that: they are there in the histories.
The same accusations that Sabine put in her anonymous mail to this list were
also
found in her answer to my post to it.wiktionary.org, at least to my (albeit
limited)
understanding of Italian. And therefore this forum is indeed a place to
discuss these things.

> > If someone contents something you should listen to them and go in a
> > discussion. Not just boldly go on and add the stuff elsewhere!
>
> Here you show that you do not apreciate what Wiktionary is about; every
> wiktionary is about all words in all languages. Therefore it is
> completely acceptable to add this content in the Italian Wiktionary.
Then please mark these entries as what they are: Low Saxon in an awful
quality,
full of errors and following an unsubstantiated very private spelling of one
individual.
Or prove otherwise, which so far (even after lots of mails and discussions)
you have not done.

Please do at least try, so that we (you and I) can discuss the real issue:
the quality of your data.
Again: this is not Sass-spelling  vs. the world, but one very private,
inconsistent, doubtful spelling
against the rest of Low Saxon, and we will really clean this mess up in
nds.wiktionary.org.
At least unless you back up your position with real facts. Now this should
not be too difficult,
shouldn't it?

And perhaps we can then go back to work, because there really is a lot of
work to do and the
list could already have been cleaned up, if we didn't have this discussion
and if you then
import the corrected data for us, or if you give us acces to the import
script. (Which by the way
I have asked for several times so far. I also need it because I have quite a
long list of words (apart
from your list) derived from the Low Saxon translation of KDE that I would
like to import.)

Is there really no way for us to cooperate? Does anyone else here understand
what I am talking about for all this time?

kind regards,

Heiko Evermann

--
5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail
+++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++


body:
On 16/08/05, Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2. Why so long
> Because it does take that long to find the suitable venue and get the
> required information. You think we should leave less time?
>
> > 3. The chances of still being able to book a 500 person capacity venue
> > for August 2006 in Britain in the November before is minimal. I would
> > be somewhat suprised if was different for anywhere else in the world.
> Not sure I get you right here. Do you mean, November is way too late
> to book the venue? Or way too early? (sorry, non-English speaker
> here).

Too late to book. I've been ringing several possible venues in the UK
today and none will still be available by that time - many bookings
have already been taken for next summer, in fact. Is this different in
other countries?

Dan


body:
Perhaps you could also answer me something else, Delphine: Who is
going to organise Wikimania 2006?

Dan


from_name: Arne Klempert

body:
On 8/16/05, Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com> wrote:
> What about Australia - home of Tim Starling among many others - or
> even NZ if for some reason we are wanting to only hold these things in
> developed countries. But i dont see what is wrong with the idea of
> Brazil, India, SA, Argentina or somewhere similar. There are a
> reasonable number of wikimedians in the larger countries in the global
> south.

Perhaps you should talk to these Wikipedians and encourage them to
take part in the city contest instead of talking about them ;) Such
theoretical discussions are nice, but what is really needed are people
on site who are willing and able to take care of organisation tasks.

-- Arne (akl)


from_name: Delphine Ménard

body:
On 8/16/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Who decided this
I did. This is based on last year's time frame, which worked pretty well.

> 2. Why so long
Because it does take that long to find the suitable venue and get the
required information. You think we should leave less time?

> 3. The chances of still being able to book a 500 person capacity venue
> for August 2006 in Britain in the November before is minimal. I would
> be somewhat suprised if was different for anywhere else in the world.
Not sure I get you right here. Do you mean, November is way too late
to book the venue? Or way too early? (sorry, non-English speaker
here).

As for your previous question about who the jury is, it will of course
include the members of the board and this year's organization team.
Debates, like last year, will be public, and every city will be given
the opportunity to defend its ground.

Best,

Delphine

--
~notafish


from_name: Christof Damian

subject: [Wikitech-l] simple mediawiki calendar

body:
A few people have asked me for the calendar I use on
http://krass.com/wiki/Calendar

I couldn't release it earlier, because the CalendarClass I used didn't
have a GPL friendly license (in fact, it didn't have any license and I
wasn't able to contact the author). Now I have written my own
primitive class and can release the whole thing under GPL.

Its just tested on http://krass.com/ and not tested in any other
environment.

You can find the code here: http://krass.com/wikicalendar.tgz

I put this info also on: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Cdamian/calendar

cheers,
christof
--
Christof Damian
christof at damian.net


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Cleaning the database

body:
Juliano Ravasi Ferraz wrote:
> Brion suggests using "DELETE FROM archive;", but I wonder if this
> procedure is still up-to-date for the latest development releases. It
> looks like that the real data are stored in `text`, and there are no
> database constraints to propagate deletions. Issuing this command seems
> to just cause a "database" leak (compared to a memory leak). Am I right?

Right.

> If so, is it correct to issue something like "DELETE FROM archive, text
> WHERE ar_text_id = old_id;" for current MediaWiki versions? Is this
> secure? Or will this somehow harm database consistency?

That sounds like it will probably work, on MySQL 4 or later. (But back
everything up first!)

There's not really any built-in management for discarding old data to
save space; MediaWiki assumes you have a buttload of space and will get
more or manually rearrange data when you need it. :)

> Another question: I ran for some time with $wgCompressRevisions off, and
> now I want to turn it on. Ok, it will compress pages from now on, but is
> there a procedure to compress all old revisions already created before
> setting the option?

There is compressOld.php, but IIRC this code is broken on 1.5 at the moment.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject:
[Foundation-l] Chapters,
	deductibility and donation profiles (was Wikimania 2006 - host city
	contest to open onSeptember 1st 20)

body:
--- Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> In this, it may not be the best way, but we are trying to find out
> what is the best way to make sure money coming in through local
> chapter is used "for all the projects, everywhere" (ie. including on
> servers and bandwidth, wherever they may be).

There is currently a built-in expectation by donors that the money they give
will benefit the projects in the realm of buying servers, paying for hosting,
and the other things we mention in fund drive letters and our budget.

So far this has not be a serious issue and thus the foundation has not needed
to ask the German Chapter, for example, to buy us anything. But this issue will
start to affect the budget as donations to more chapters become tax deductible.
We need to work out how to make that work for us instead of against us.

> Different legislations imply different ways of doing it, but in the
> long run, I am pretty sure this will clear itself and happen in a
> smooth way.

The laws of different nations will of course determine how each chapter can
help Wikimedia meet its goals. Once we know this for each nation that has a
chapter, we will need to tell donors that money given to the chapter in their
nation may have limited use outside their nation.

In the worst cases, a chapter may not be able to buy anything for the
foundation and only support activities in that chapter's nation. Let's hope
that is rare.

Looking at how the Red Cross works would be very interesting in this regard.
They are composed of one parent organization based in Switzerland and many
national organizations in various countries. All the ones I'm aware of work
internationally.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
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Sean Barrett wrote:
> David Gerard stated for the record:
>>
>> The latest case being the BBC, it would be well above AC level ;-)
>
>
> I knew that we were talking about the Beeb as I wrote my original.  If
> we had proof that the BBC was deliberately and as a matter of corporate
> strategy introducing falsehoods into Wikipedia (and fiction presented as
> fact is falsehood), then I would be eager to block them and shout it
> from the rooftops.
>
> We don't put up with vandalism.  We should put up with corporate-planned
> and -sponsored vandalism even less.
>
> But unlike some, I'll wait for proof before going to war.  ;->
>

I'd assume that a body corporate like the BBC would have its own range
of IP adddresses. If they will hold us to ransom, we could quite easily
block their entire IP range from editing, consequences be damned; better
yet, encourage people (read: slashdot users) to DDoS BBC until they
cease and desist.

Remember, it's our site, we make the rules.

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
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http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Welcoming Peter C. Wayner and...

body:
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David Gerard wrote:
> Alphax (alphasigmax at gmail.com) [050816 01:55]:
>
>>Theresa Knott wrote:
>>
>>>On 8/15/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>Maybe we should... just as page moving is disabled until you have a
>>>>certain number of edits, so should new page creation. It would probably
>>>>save VFD a whole lot of trouble.
>
>
>>>No!No!No! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!
>>>Totally daft idea!
>>>The first edit I ever made was creation of a new page. And it was a
>>>crappy stub. And had I not been allowed to make it I may never have
>>>become hooked.
>
>
>
>>See disclaimer :) But it would stop the amount of junk having to be
>>scraped out of VFD, yes?
>
>
>
> Disclaimer or no, there are people who would take that reason seriously as
> a justification. This sort of thinking is an example of why VFD  as it is
> currently constituted is poisonous to the wiki.
>

This disclaimer I was referring to was mine that I wasn't particularly
awake when I made that post.

As such, I'm not entirely sure whether you agree with Theresa or myself.

Open question to all: do you think that new accounts should be prevented
from creating pages? Would it clean out VFD? Or is the idea
fundamentally unwiki?

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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from_name: Bryan Derksen

body:
Stan Shebs wrote:

> Clearly we need developers to make an addition to the login creation
> screen!
>
>  Please indicate the purpose of this account:
>  [*] Good
>  [ ] Evil
>
> I suppose one could argue that there should be a
> "Neutral" option too, and that everybody must choose it.

Yes, that's the tricky bit - we need to allow the Evil Point of View to
have its say too. It'd be bad to have have Wikipedia become completely
Good-biased. This would all be so much easier if more Internet software
developers would just get off their butts and implement RFC 3514
<http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3514.txt> in a more widespread manner.

But what about the Lawful/Chaotic alignment axis? That's potentially far
more controversial.


body:
On 8/16/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you could also answer me something else, Delphine: Who is
> going to organise Wikimania 2006?

That's a very good question indeed.

Most of the organization team of this year is ready to build up on the
experience acquired and sign up for next year again . This said, I
believe that the choice in city is crucial to who will get involved
and how. There is only so much one can do not being "on the spot", or
"not speaking the language" etc. It would also be a shame to start
afresh and re-invent the wheel, as we say in French, not taking
advantage of lessons learned.

Organising a conference, some of us learned, means deadlines, full
dedication and basically is a full-time job in the weeks preceding the
conference, we'll need people ready to give at least that to build a
winning organisation team.

Best,

Delphine

--
~notafish


subject:
[Foundation-l] Australian chapter (was Re: Wikimania 2006 - host
	city contest to open onSeptember 1st 20)

body:
On 8/16/05, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> Regarding Wikimedia chapters, I wrote:
> > I have no plans for encouraging the formation of one
> > anywhere near me, unless I see solid evidence that it makes financial sense.
>
> I'll just add to that that I did a quick review of the tax situation
> with charities in Australia. It seems a Wikimedia chapter in Australia
> may qualify as a charity but would not qualify as a "deductible gift
> recipient" (DGR). This means that although it would be exempt from
> paying income tax, donations would not be tax-deductible. So there would
> be very little financial benefit in creating an Australian chapter.

Financial benefit is not the only thing that makes chapters useful. In
Germany the chapter helped a lot in getting more publicity and getting
the community together, and in setting up such fruitful partnerships
like the one with the Deutsche Bibiliothek (national library) or the
one with Directmedia who published the German Wikipedia DVD. I doubt
that this would have happened without a German chapter. Of course we
need money, but to reach our long term goals we'll need more than
that.

-- Arne (akl)


body:
On 8/16/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16/08/05, Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:

> Too late to book. I've been ringing several possible venues in the UK
> today and none will still be available by that time - many bookings
> have already been taken for next summer, in fact. Is this different in
> other countries?

It is, and it isn't. For having worked in the event business for the
past 7 years, I can say that bookings for conference venues in the
summer are pretty much on a first come, first served basis, first come
meaning the first who books solid. You might want to ask to be
considered as "second option" on many venues that "seem" to be booked
for next summer, and find out that you'll get the venue because you're
the first who signs a contract.

I am completely ok with shortening the calendar if that secures us the
perfect location for next year. I believe that we could have the first
shortlist by the end of September rather than October 15th.

What calendar do you propose?

best,

Delphine
--
~notafish


body:
Heiko Evermann wrote:

>Hi Gerard,
>
>slowly I am beginning to be fed up with this discussion. I ask you
>not to misrepresent my position any longer.
>
>
>
>>>>On the one word you told me by e-mail that was a hundred percent
>>>>error turned out to be used 186 times on the internet (I have a
>>>>screenshot of google if you don't believe it) and I found the writer
>>>>who used it in her texts - she's a reporter for a newspaper in North
>>>>Germany and has been writing articles in Pattd??tsch vor over 13
>>>>years for them now. I also contacted her to ask her how to categorise
>>>>her writings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Another mysterious supporting source.
>>>
>>>
>>You can ask for the name of this writer; it can be given.
>>
>>
>Please list this word, please name this writer, so that we can discuss this
>one item in detail. I
>had listed several gravely misspelled words (according to all spellings that
>I know of), so please tell us which one of them you are
>referring here. Please name your sources. You could e.g. cite any dictionary
>whatsoever to prove your point. I have given details. I can show you several
>dictionaries that support my spelling. You so far have given 0. In words
>*ZERO*. That is not enough.
>Besides you have not even given any information about the origin of the
>list.
>We know which web site it is from, but from the misspellings in
>capitalization
>it is clear that it is derived from a text. I would really like to know
>which text that is. The problem is that you so far have not done anything
>to underly your claims with any credible source. Again: citing one website
>that is mirrored to some other places is circular reasoning, but no proof.
>Again: wiktionary is not a dump for all the misspellings in the world. You
>would
>not get through with that in any other wiktionary.
>
>
We have a letter by a university professor informing us that bitter
fights are waged over what is "correct" spelling in nds. Anyway the fact
that you have your sources in itself only proves that you can attribute
the information that you provide to an orthography. "Werner Eichelberg
sien dollet W??rbook" is the source of Sabine's list; Werner indicated
that the source were articles that were translated from deutschplatt.
Your assertion that this must be incorrect is based on the availability
of the resources that you have. There are some 200 valid orthographies
and your assertion that some words *must *be wrong can be substantiated
when you have considered them all. The sheer fact that this source has
been indicated for several years as a good resource on the nds.wikipedia
must count for something, (it is not just any old website :)

You again assert that they are misspellings. Given that Sabine is in the
process of getting more resources for this discussion, it would be
prudent to give it some time and not insist on instant resolution
because this is not feasible.

>
>
>>>>So: anything is out of discussion here. I am not going let me impose
>>>>things by anyone, I prefer research and adapt the contents we have to
>>>>that..
>>>>
>>>>
>Now the thing is that you wanted to impose things on us. Besides you created
>facts
>by importing this list into it.wiktionary.org. A list that is highly
>suspicious.
>
>
>
First of all I have done nothing here; I have not imported the list, but
given your point of view that only what you know to be correct should be
inserted I do agree that what Sabine did is in line with the Wiki
tradition. She provides information that people can comment on. Again, I
urge you to identify the words that you know to be correct for the
orthography that they represent. This will ultimately give us a list of
words that cannot be attributed to any orthography because they are
wrong; they will then be indicated for what we will know at that time.

>>When Heiko is to ignore substantiated facts, he will make what he does
>>in the Wiktionary world irrelevant. This would not be about ediwars. I
>>do not expect that Heiko will get into an editwar as there is a perfect
>>solution and that is using proper labelling. When Heiko indicates words
>>to be according to the Sass orthography or whatever Heiko orthography
>>knows, his work will be most relevant. There are plenty possible
>>solutions here.
>>
>>
>No Gerard, *you* have not delivered substantiated facts. Why haven't you
>done that
>all along. This discussion has been going on for several weeks now. And your
>only
>argument is that you found this spelling somewhere on the internet and
>therefore
>it is a valid spelling. You could of course try to import all this data with
>the tag
>"very private spelling of xy", but then I really have ask who should profit
>from that?
>Low Saxon is in a bad shape nowadays. And an nds.wiktionary.org needs to
>present data
>that reflect actual current usage of words and not private spellings. If
>there should be
>a place for very private spellings in wiktionary or UW, then certainly
>*after* inserting
>the real, current use as substantiated by dictionaries etc. of whatever
>spelling. What I have been doing is cleaning up (as can be seen in
>nds.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges). And I do think that this has
>helped to make the data a lot more relevant.
>
>
>
I am not party in this really because I am not gaining access to new
resources. What I am doing is showing that what is being done is
relevant and an acceptable way of going forward.

To make it relevant you have to state what orthography a word is
http://nds.wiktionary.org/wiki/ankieken (a recently changed article)
does not indicate an orthography and is from my point of view as
relevant as any of the stuff Sabine uploaded. Low Saxon may be in a bad
way, it is helped by working together and doing a good job in
categorizing words to the orthographies that are in use. It is not
helped by us endlessly exchanging mail. I will take you more seriously
when you start indicating orthographies. You can trust Sabine that she
is writing to all these resources and I expect that it will lead to
wordlist that will indicate what orthography they belong to. This in
turn will make what we both aim for more objective; a good resource for nds.

>>>>I did not once mention your name and what I had/still have is a
>>>>general question - it does not happen the first time that people know
>>>>how to improve things, but just complain about others not doing as
>>>>the writer supposes - and talking about wikis: this is not the way to
>>>>go and that's it. It is a very general question. If you need proofs
>>>>for that: they are there in the histories.
>>>>
>>>>
>The same accusations that Sabine put in her anonymous mail to this list were
>also
>found in her answer to my post to it.wiktionary.org, at least to my (albeit
>limited)
>understanding of Italian. And therefore this forum is indeed a place to
>discuss these things.
>
>
>
>>>If someone contents something you should listen to them and go in a
>>>discussion. Not just boldly go on and add the stuff elsewhere!
>>>
>>>
>>Here you show that you do not apreciate what Wiktionary is about; every
>>wiktionary is about all words in all languages. Therefore it is
>>completely acceptable to add this content in the Italian Wiktionary.
>>
>>
>Then please mark these entries as what they are: Low Saxon in an awful
>quality,
>full of errors and following an unsubstantiated very private spelling of one
>individual.
>Or prove otherwise, which so far (even after lots of mails and discussions)
>you have not done.
>
>
>
As mentioned before, this is the pot calling the kettle black. Start
indicating orthographies and you prove the quality of your contributions.

>Please do at least try, so that we (you and I) can discuss the real issue:
>the quality of your data.
>Again: this is not Sass-spelling  vs. the world, but one very private,
>inconsistent, doubtful spelling
>against the rest of Low Saxon, and we will really clean this mess up in
>nds.wiktionary.org.
>At least unless you back up your position with real facts. Now this should
>not be too difficult,
>shouldn't it?
>
>And perhaps we can then go back to work, because there really is a lot of
>work to do and the
>list could already have been cleaned up, if we didn't have this discussion
>and if you then
>import the corrected data for us, or if you give us acces to the import
>script. (Which by the way
>I have asked for several times so far. I also need it because I have quite a
>long list of words (apart
>from your list) derived from the Low Saxon translation of KDE that I would
>like to import.)
>
>
>
The software we are using is known to you; we use the pywikipedia bot
software. No problems there. Generating the source for the bot is
something that is often different depending on what we have for input.
It is a typical handjob. If you have a list with Sass compliant words or
a list with words in another orthography (preferably with at least one
translation) I am quite happy to make you a source so that you can
upload this. Are these KDE files .po files ??

>Is there really no way for us to cooperate? Does anyone else here understand
>what I am talking about for all this time?
>
>
>
There are many ways in which we can cooperate but the bottom line is; to
improve nds content you have to indicate the orthography because without
it, the quality of the information is debatable.  So again let us work
together and agree that knowing the orthography is key to proving the
worth of individual lemmas.

NB this whole exchange of e-mails is not really relevant to the
Wikipedia-l so I will only answer from now on at the Wiktionary-l

Thanks,
    GerardM


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] correction of errors in articles


body:
Tim Starling wrote:

>Regarding Wikimedia chapters, I wrote:
>
>
>>I have no plans for encouraging the formation of one
>>anywhere near me, unless I see solid evidence that it makes financial sense.
>>
>>
>
>I'll just add to that that I did a quick review of the tax situation
>with charities in Australia. It seems a Wikimedia chapter in Australia
>may qualify as a charity but would not qualify as a "deductible gift
>recipient" (DGR). This means that although it would be exempt from
>paying income tax, donations would not be tax-deductible. So there would
>be very little financial benefit in creating an Australian chapter.
>
>Approved DGR categories: http://tinyurl.com/9kz9q
>
>-- Tim Starling
>
I was curious and had a look there is this "PUBLIC FUND ON THE REGISTER
OF CULTURAL ORGANISATIONS" thingie I would think that it might fit the
bill. Then again what do I know I live in cloggie land :)
Thanks,
    GerardM


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: I can plant viral marketing in the
	vasty	Wikipedia...

body:
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Dan Grey wrote:
> Can I ask you to resist changing the subject of e-mails when you
> reply? It's a pain to have the same conversation spread acrosss
> different threads.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>

Assume good faith, Dan :) First blame the ISP, then the mail client,
then the user.

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
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David Gerard wrote:
> Alphax (alphasigmax at gmail.com) [050816 17:55]:
>
>
>> I'd assume that a body corporate like the BBC would have its own
>> range of IP adddresses. If they will hold us to ransom, we could
>> quite easily block their entire IP range from editing, consequences
>> be damned; better yet, encourage people (read: slashdot users) to
>> DDoS BBC until they cease and desist. Remember, it's our site, we
>> make the rules.
>
>
>
> Y'know, diplomacy does have a lot going for it as a first option.
>

In the last 2 days 5 sites have been picked up by Google Alerts as being
about the viral marketing campaign. The first summary was:

> Someone has apparently abused collaborative reference site Wikipedia
> in a viral marketing campaign for a BBC online alternate reality
> game.

then:

> Yesterday, the BBC Alternate Reality Game, Jamie Kane and the
> presumed viral marketing use of Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia
> that anyone can edit, hit ...

I haven't read the stories, but some nutter in the marketing department
will probably not respond to diplomacy. And meanwhile, we, the
community, have to put up with this crap. We don't go and abuse their
services, do we?? People need to learn that Wikipedia has power far
beyond deleting and blocking.

For one thing, we have NPOV, and your remarks on its power are fondly
remembered :)

For another, we have plenty of users who would gladly go out of their
way to defend us.

DDoS has been remarkably effective in changing corporate minds in the
past. Look at the case of eToy.

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Draft: "Dartmouth Do's and Don'ts"

body:
On Aug 16, 2005, at 4:00 AM, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> On 8/15/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
>
>>> I have a draft up at [[Wikipedia:School and university projects -
>>> instructions for students]]. Alterations appreciated, and anyone
>>> else
>>> willing to help please stick your name down...

I thought this was a little general and vague. I wrote a draft taking
a somewhat different approach at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dpbsmith/Dartmouth

Comments, discussion, and edits welcome.

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


body:
On 16/08/05, Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/16/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps you could also answer me something else, Delphine: Who is
> > going to organise Wikimania 2006?
>
> That's a very good question indeed.
>
> Most of the organization team of this year is ready to build up on the
> experience acquired and sign up for next year again . This said, I
> believe that the choice in city is crucial to who will get involved
> and how. There is only so much one can do not being "on the spot", or
> "not speaking the language" etc. It would also be a shame to start
> afresh and re-invent the wheel, as we say in French, not taking
> advantage of lessons learned.
>
> Organising a conference, some of us learned, means deadlines, full
> dedication and basically is a full-time job in the weeks preceding the
> conference, we'll need people ready to give at least that to build a
> winning organisation team.

Here in the UK we would be prepared to book venues, accommodation and
arrange any transport needed - for everything else I would be very
happy to see the same people as last time organise it for exactly the
reasons you give.

Dan


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
Alphax (alphasigmax at gmail.com) [050816 17:55]:

> I'd assume that a body corporate like the BBC would have its own range
> of IP adddresses. If they will hold us to ransom, we could quite easily
> block their entire IP range from editing, consequences be damned; better
> yet, encourage people (read: slashdot users) to DDoS BBC until they
> cease and desist.
> Remember, it's our site, we make the rules.

Y'know, diplomacy does have a lot going for it as a first option.

- d.


body:
Alphax (alphasigmax at gmail.com) [050816 18:00]:

> Open question to all: do you think that new accounts should be prevented
> from creating pages? Would it clean out VFD? Or is the idea
> fundamentally unwiki?

The idea is fundamentally unwiki and deeply awful. The purpose of Wikipedia
is not to make VFD manageable.

- d.


body:
On 16/08/05, Delphine M?nard <notafishz at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is, and it isn't. For having worked in the event business for the
> past 7 years, I can say that bookings for conference venues in the
> summer are pretty much on a first come, first served basis, first come
> meaning the first who books solid. You might want to ask to be
> considered as "second option" on many venues that "seem" to be booked
> for next summer, and find out that you'll get the venue because you're
> the first who signs a contract.

That's very interesting. It's also been suggested to me to look into
provisionally booking our preferred choice(s) in the UK.

>
> I am completely ok with shortening the calendar if that secures us the
> perfect location for next year. I believe that we could have the first
> shortlist by the end of September rather than October 15th.
>
> What calendar do you propose?

A shortlist by the end of September would be very good.  A "decision
day" of October 15 rather than November 1 would help a lot.

But I also wonder if the deadline for bid submissions could be moved
forwards. Those who are interested in proposing serious bids are
probably already working on them (as we are in the UK).

For example:
Bids submitted by September 14
Shortlist made on September 21 (I can't imagine there will be that
many realistic bids, and seven days should be enough to chose, no?)
Final decision made on October 5

Dan


body:
Fastfission wrote:

>You know, the ultimate way to save VFD trouble is to just disable
>editing altogether! Can I get an amen?
>
>
Excellent idea! And we can remove all possible NPOV violations by
blanking all of the existing articles. Imagine how this will ease the
server load - we could finally enable the article version rating feature. :)


body:
Tobias Denninger wrote:
> Jerome Jamnicky <jeronimwp at ...> writes:
>
>
>>If you haven't already, please read the privacy policy carefully, and
>>also this thread, where somebody made a similar request for a similar
>>purpose:
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-July/thread.html#30917
>
>
> I don't need a direct access to the log file. I also don't want the statistics
> for myself but I had the idea a feature like I explained before could be useful
> for the wikipedia. So all personal data could remain on a wikipedia server.
> Personal recommendations would be visible only to the concerned user. I would
> just need a sample of the logfile to test scripts. But maybe we should first
> clarify if we want to add this feature..Tobias

I thought it would be obvious, but giving you a sample of the logfile is
a violation of the (current) privacy policy.  So your options are to
offer a script to alter the logfile so that we would not violate the
policy by giving the resulting file to you, or to get the policy changed.

-Jerome
---
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
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Dan Grey wrote:
> On 16/08/05, Ryan Delaney <ryan.delaney at gmail.com> wrote:>
>
>>This (Wikipedia endorsing a DDoS) will never happen, so its pointless to
>>argue about, but I just wanted to go on the record saying I am totally
>>against it. This isn't the wild west. Block their IP range if absolutely
>>necessary, but DDoSing them is insane.
>
>
> And couldn't happen. Remember - the BBC was serving 10Gb a *second* on
> the morning of July 7. Slashdot's influence is so small it doesn't
> even produce a noticeable blip in our requests per second.
>

How much do the combined Wikimedia servers serve? What would happen if
all the Wikimedia sites were redirected to the BBC for a day?

> Jimbo pretty much hits the nail on the head - for a small PR firm, the
> hullabaloo would be great for them, and far more effective than if
> their "viral" campaign had gone unnoticed.
>

It's like [[WP:BEANS]] - now that someone has tried, everyone else will too.

> However if you want to start entertaining the idea of range-blocking
> the BBC or other big company - which would make the news wires, I'd
> imagine - you need a very high level of proof, or you're going to look
> stupid in front the world. Not good for image (but would sure drive WP
> a lot of traffic :-) ).
>

They are abusing our site for corporate gain! Surely we have every right
to block them! They at least owe us an apology for misusing our
resources like this.

> I believe the Jamie Kane article was started by a username. It may be
> possible to get the devs to find out the IP address assoicated with
> that name (I believe the last-used IP for that address is recorded,
> but nothing more). If that IP resolves to the BBC... well, that's
> something. But the BBC has some 20,000+ employees and it could still
> all be a co-incidence, albeit a suspicious one.
>

Well, if they want to violate [[WP:POINT]], we can disrupt them back. To
quote [[meta:Bash]]: You can, however, disrupt Encarta to make a point.
I don't see why the same shouldn't hold for anyone who corporate
entities who do the same to us.

Besides, if the BBC has 20,000+ employees on their side, how many more
users do we have on *our* side? With the powers of Wikipedia and
Slashdot combined...

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
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from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Jerome Jamnicky wrote:
> I thought it would be obvious, but giving you a sample of the logfile is
> a violation of the (current) privacy policy.  So your options are to
> offer a script to alter the logfile so that we would not violate the
> policy by giving the resulting file to you, or to get the policy changed.

Well, it was me who suggested that, we could just give him log files for
a few IP addresses corresponding to people who have given their consent.
For example, we could give him logs of his own requests.

I'm now thinking, however, that log files are not what Tobias wants at
all, instead he wants something similar to the page view counter, which
was disabled for efficiency reasons.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Polish Chapter founded

body:
I am glad to hear of this :-)

Please, do not forget to join tomorrow irc meetup (foundation and
existing chapters only). Get on #wikimedia at 18 utc.

There was a mailing list for all board members of chapters,
chapter-l at wikimedia.org, but it appears to have been lost in the server
crash the other day (at least, it is unreachable now). We'll probably
have to create a new one on a working server. For now, cc mails only.
Could you by tomorrow gather the email addresses of your 5 board members ?

Also, consider joining the legal mailing list juriwiki-l at wikimedia.org
mailing list (Soufron is its moderator) if not yet on it. You are
welcome to suggest lawyers, judges etc... from polish projects to join
as well.

Datrio now, and yourself have an account on wikimedia foundation; If the
3 other board members want one, please ask Angela or myself.

I'll be glad that Datrio draft a small announcement of the chapter
announcement for the foundation website :
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home

Also, if one or several of you could make a small recap of the meeting,
with some nice pictures (and names on it) for Quarto 4, it would be
great as well.

Here we are :-) Special welcome to Jadwiga :-)

Ant

If you could

TOR wrote:
> Dear fellow Wikimedians,
>
> I am happy to inform you, that "Stowarzyszenie Wikimedia Polska"
> (Wikimedia Polska Association), the Polish Chapter of Wikimedia
> Foundation, has been founded this sunday in Krakow, during a larger two
> day event called "Wikimedia Polska 2005 Meetup". More than 25 founding
> members signed the documents.
>
> Five Wikimedians were pre-elected to the Board of Wikimedia Polska:
> - ?ukasz Garczewski (pl:User:TOR), as president;
> - Piotr Cywi?ski (pl:User:Wulfstan), as vice-president;
> - Tomasz Ganicz (pl:User:Polimerek), as tresurer;
> - Dariusz Siedlecki (pl:User:Datrio), as scretary;
> - Jadwiga Andrychowska-Biegacz (pl:User:Jadwiga), as board member.
>
> We still have to get the documents to court and take care of all the
> formalities, but we can already see new possibilites opening up before us.
>
> Please visit http://pl.wikimedia.org/ for more information and the
> latest news on the Polish Chapter if you want to keep up to date. We
> will translate the important pages into English ASAP.
>
> If you need to contact the Polish Chapter, feel free to msg me (TOR_CNR)
> or Datrio on #wikimedia on IRC, leave a message on our talk pages on
> pl.wikimedia.org (or meta) or e-mail us (addresses can be found on meta).
>
> Chapters aside, you can view the photos taken during the meetup on the
> Commons under
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Polish_Wikimedia_Meetup_2005
> or in Polish (if you want to practice our wonderfully difficult language
> by reading the cations) under:
> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zlot_Wikimedia_Polska_2005/Zdj%C4%99cia
>
>
> I'd also like to thank everyone whose work and dedication made both the
> Chapter and the meetup possible. Special thanks go to Datrio, Wulfstan
> and G-dam for all the hard work they've done on the bylaws and to
> Jadwiga for organizing things in Krakow wonderfully.
>
> And a big thank you to Tim Shell (who attended the meetup and had to put
> up with us Poles for two days :)) for all the patience, kind words and
> encouragement!
>


body:
NOT tomorrow. In two days :-)

Ant

Anthere wrote:

> I am glad to hear of this :-)
>
> Please, do not forget to join tomorrow irc meetup (foundation and
> existing chapters only). Get on #wikimedia at 18 utc.
>
> There was a mailing list for all board members of chapters,
> chapter-l at wikimedia.org, but it appears to
> have been lost in the server crash the other day (at least, it is
> unreachable now). We'll probably have to create a new one on a working
> server. For now, cc mails only.
> Could you by tomorrow gather the email addresses of your 5 board members ?
>
> Also, consider joining the legal mailing list
> juriwiki-l at wikimedia.org mailing list (Soufron
> is its moderator) if not yet on it. You are welcome to suggest lawyers,
> judges etc... from polish projects to join as well.
>
> Datrio now, and yourself have an account on wikimedia foundation; If the
> 3 other board members want one, please ask Angela or myself.
>
> I'll be glad that Datrio draft a small announcement of the chapter
> announcement for the foundation website :
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home
>
> Also, if one or several of you could make a small recap of the meeting,
> with some nice pictures (and names on it) for Quarto 4, it would be
> great as well.
>
> Here we are :-) Special welcome to Jadwiga :-)
>
> Ant
>
>
>
> If you could
>
> TOR wrote:
>
>> Dear fellow Wikimedians,
>>
>> I am happy to inform you, that "Stowarzyszenie Wikimedia Polska"
>> (Wikimedia Polska Association), the Polish Chapter of Wikimedia
>> Foundation, has been founded this sunday in Krakow, during a larger
>> two day event called "Wikimedia Polska 2005 Meetup". More than 25
>> founding members signed the documents.
>>
>> Five Wikimedians were pre-elected to the Board of Wikimedia Polska:
>> - ?ukasz Garczewski (pl:User:TOR), as president;
>> - Piotr Cywi?ski (pl:User:Wulfstan), as vice-president;
>> - Tomasz Ganicz (pl:User:Polimerek), as tresurer;
>> - Dariusz Siedlecki (pl:User:Datrio), as scretary;
>> - Jadwiga Andrychowska-Biegacz (pl:User:Jadwiga), as board member.
>>
>> We still have to get the documents to court and take care of all the
>> formalities, but we can already see new possibilites opening up before
>> us.
>>
>> Please visit http://pl.wikimedia.org/ for more information and the
>> latest news on the Polish Chapter if you want to keep up to date. We
>> will translate the important pages into English ASAP.
>>
>> If you need to contact the Polish Chapter, feel free to msg me
>> (TOR_CNR) or Datrio on #wikimedia on IRC, leave a message on our talk
>> pages on pl.wikimedia.org (or meta) or e-mail us (addresses can be
>> found on meta).
>>
>> Chapters aside, you can view the photos taken during the meetup on the
>> Commons under
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Polish_Wikimedia_Meetup_2005
>> or in Polish (if you want to practice our wonderfully difficult
>> language by reading the cations) under:
>> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zlot_Wikimedia_Polska_2005/Zdj%C4%99cia
>>
>>
>> I'd also like to thank everyone whose work and dedication made both
>> the Chapter and the meetup possible. Special thanks go to Datrio,
>> Wulfstan and G-dam for all the hard work they've done on the bylaws
>> and to Jadwiga for organizing things in Krakow wonderfully.
>>
>> And a big thank you to Tim Shell (who attended the meetup and had to
>> put up with us Poles for two days :)) for all the patience, kind words
>> and encouragement!
>>
>


from_name: Ryan W. (Merovingian)

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: Welcoming Peter C. Wayner and...

body:
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from_name: Fastfission

body:
You know, the ultimate way to save VFD trouble is to just disable
editing altogether! Can I get an amen?

FF

On 8/15/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Laura Scudder wrote:
> > Except then it wouldn't get edited mercilessly by other Wikipedians.
> > The students will probably work a bit harder if they know it's going
> > into the main article namespace where it will be subjected to many
> > eyes and editors than if it's in their user namespace.
> >
> > Besides, we don't make other newbies' first articles go up for approval.
> >
>
> *WARNING: BRAIN IS CURRENTLY OFF. ATTEMPTS TO COMMUNICATE MAY BE
> DANGEROUS. CONTINUE [Y/N]?* y
>
> Maybe we should... just as page moving is disabled until you have a
> certain number of edits, so should new page creation. It would probably
> save VFD a whole lot of trouble.
>
> - --
> Alphax                      |   /"\
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> OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
> http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
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> 42nBZoL9OX2zR5NtvJHO1g4=
> =mjpl
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Jerome Jamnicky

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> Jerome Jamnicky wrote:
>
>>I thought it would be obvious, but giving you a sample of the logfile is
>>a violation of the (current) privacy policy.  So your options are to
>>offer a script to alter the logfile so that we would not violate the
>>policy by giving the resulting file to you, or to get the policy changed.
>
>
> Well, it was me who suggested that, we could just give him log files for
> a few IP addresses corresponding to people who have given their consent.
> For example, we could give him logs of his own requests.

Oh okay.  Well, if that's what he wants, I'll help out.

> I'm now thinking, however, that log files are not what Tobias wants at
> all, instead he wants something similar to the page view counter, which
> was disabled for efficiency reasons.

Logwood gives page counts, but it's broken for en: at the moment.  See
for example:
http://www2.knams.wikimedia.org/logwood//archive/hr.wikipedia.org/2005-08/2005-08.hr.wikipedia.org.all_urls.txt

> -- Tim Starling
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Blocks on the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabian
	proxies

body:
This is one of those situations where disabling editing for anonymous
users (and blocking names only, not IPs) would be appropriate, no?

(Is that possible yet?)

FF

On 8/15/05, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> The UAE and SA each run the whole country's internet access through
> small proxy subnets. However, the proxies appear to be open, at least
> a bit, in places. Do we risk blocking the whole damn countries?
>
> Is it worth excluding them from IP blocks when a name is blocked? (Is
> this another instance of bug 550?)
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
> Date: Aug 15, 2005 8:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia e-mail
> To: -----
>
>
> I think what happened was that I blocked someone else (Boothy443 I
> think) who had been using the IP, and so the IP was blocked as well
> for a while. If it's clear now then good!
>
> But if the Emirates proxy is blocked again, please do let the blocking
> admin know, with the listed blocked name - that's how the admin can
> work out which block it is and jnblock it.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> On 8/15/05, ----- wrote:
> > yes, but now its unblocked, so i cant remember.
> >
> > this is -----, this is just my backup mailbox cos i cant
> > access my main one at the moment.
> >
> > On 8/15/05, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I can't actually find a block on that IP or range. Did the message say
> > > which username was blocked?
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/15/05, ----- wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Your IP address is 213.42.2.11. Please include this address, along with your username, in any queries you make"
> > > >
> > > > this IP address that you have blocked is the proxy that allows access for an entire country, the united arab emirates, by blocking this, thousands will be effected
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Notes from the first August Board Meeting

body:
A Board meeting was held on IRC on August 14, primarily to discuss the
upcoming fundraising drive and the finances for this quarter. The full
notes from this are at
<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings/August_14%2C_2005>. The
following is just a summary.

The budget for the third quarter was approved. The total is
$198,000.00. See Meetings/August 14, 2005 for the details.

A fundraising drive will take place from August 19 to September 9. We
are anticipating donations of $200,000, which will be the first in six
months. Credit card donations should be promoted, the French chapter
is able to receive donations, and donations via transfer to a European
bank account can be made using the Belgian account.

A full time executive assistant for Wikimedia will be hired to work
from the Florida to help with paperwork and distribution of
information. A certified public accountant will be hired to review the
financial records.

Discussions with potential sponsors are ongoing with Apple, Best Buy,
Google, Logos, OSI, and Sun. We are finalists for a $100,000 grant
($50k in cash) from Saatchi and Saatchi. The winners are to be
announced on November 9. Yahoo servers are expected to go online in
South Korea this month.

Differences in the interpretation of the role of Chief Research
Officer were discussed. The outcome of this will be published on
August 17.

It was proposed that the Wikiversity pages on Wikibooks be not deleted
immediately, pending community discussion of where to move them, and
of the best way to incubate new projects. Please discuss this on this
mailing list.

A meeting for Board, Board Officials, and representatives of Local
chapters will be held on August 18. See
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda>.

Angela.


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viral marketing?

body:
On 8/16/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:

> I haven't read the stories, but some nutter in the marketing department
> will probably not respond to diplomacy. And meanwhile, we, the
> community, have to put up with this crap. We don't go and abuse their
> services, do we?? People need to learn that Wikipedia has power far
> beyond deleting and blocking.

Just quietly, but if you were looking at people NOT to make made at
you, the BBC and other large mass media organisations would be top of
the list.

The sensible thing to do would be to talk it over behind the scenes,
rather than start calling hostile press conferences and mobilising the
troops to conduct illegal operations.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Paweł 'Ausir' Dembowski

subject:
[Foundation-l] Wikimania 2006 - host city contest to open
	onSeptember 1st 20

body:
> For citizens of (much of) the EU, Australia, and Japan (and a few other
> places like Singapore and Brunei), there is no need for a visa at all.
> You just show up and come on in, no problem.

Well, at least people from Poland and Greece do need visas to get into
the US.

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org


subject:
[Foundation-l] Wikimania 2006 - visa issues (was host city
	contest to open ...)

body:
On 8/16/05, Pawe? 'Ausir' Dembowski <fallout at lexx.eu.org> wrote:
> > For citizens of (much of) the EU, Australia, and Japan (and a few other
> > places like Singapore and Brunei), there is no need for a visa at all.
> > You just show up and come on in, no problem.
>
> Well, at least people from Poland and Greece do need visas to get into
> the US.

The visa issues are numerous:
1- how easy is it to get a visa?
2- who can issue the invitations to allow someone to get a visa?
3- how attractive is the country and how much visa fishing will the
conference prompt?

1 is, in my opinion, not a problem, as long as we have a strong 2 to
issue the invitations. We just have to think about it in advance and
make sure all people ask for their visa in advance. Having the
Foundation as a recognized charity in the US for example, does make
things easier  than they would be in a country where getting a visa is
difficult *and* we have no legal representation.

3 is... a bummer. We stopped counting the phony applications we had
for Wikimania this year three days after we opened registration. The
US in that respect will definitely attract lots of people fishing for
invitations. *sigh*

This said, in my opinion, neither of the 3 should play too strong a
role in having/or not having Wikimania in the US. We just have to be
prepared.

Best,

Delphine
--
~notafish


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Foundation-l] Research access to logs

body:
Sisay Fissaha Adafre wrote:

> http://www.science.uva.nl/~sfissaha/Proj_Outline.pdf

I'm not representing the Foundation or community, I'm just curious
about what your research tries to accomplish.

It seems one of your goals (described under "Benefits for
Authors") is to change how Wikipedia works.  Have you tried this
in a smaller scale?  Do you have a link to a working prototype?

Under "Approach" you mention "analysis of existing query logs",
but what is that?  Logs of things written into the search field?
Users are of course writing search queries in a way that gives
some useful result, mostly one word searches, and not full
sentence questions in natural language.  This is very different
from what the user really "needs", something you could only find
out by interviewing real users.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


subject: [Foundation-l] Research access to logs


from_name: Heiko Evermann

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] private: nds.wiktionary.org correction of errors in
	articles

body:
Hi Gerard,
ok, let us do this in private mail:
> We have a letter by a university professor informing us that bitter
> fights are waged over what is "correct" spelling in nds. Anyway the fact
> that you have your sources in itself only proves that you can attribute
> the information that you provide to an orthography. "Werner Eichelberg
> sien dollet W??rbook" is the source of Sabine's list; Werner indicated
> that the source were articles that were translated from deutschplatt.
So do you or does Sabine have the original articles that led to the list by
Werner Eichelberg?
> Your assertion that this must be incorrect is based on the availability
> of the resources that you have. There are some 200 valid orthographies
> and your assertion that some words *must *be wrong can be substantiated
> when you have considered them all. The sheer fact that this source has
> been indicated for several years as a good resource on the nds.wikipedia
> must count for something, (it is not just any old website :)
No this is not the way to do it. I have shown examples that were wrong. In all
there have been three people in nds.wiktionary.org, all familiar with the
language who state that this list is of low quality. We have given examples.
In such a case it is then up to those who advocate *for* the list that this
list conforms to some standard. We have given enough evidence. The main
example is "abschreim". This is High German Slang. The evidence for this is
1) the word exists as such in High German
2) it uses the prefix "ab". Low Saxon uses "af-" here. I can document that for
North Low Saxon in general (Sass), Schleswig-Holstein Westcoast (Neuber),
Mecklenburg (Hermann-Winter).
3) it uses "-ei." (German) instead of "-i-" (Low Saxon)
4) a google search lists 249 instances, most of them written in south German
slang. Search for "abschreim dat f?r" to filter out High German by also
searching for two very common LS words (neuter article and a common
preposition) and you get deutschplatt and a mirror of it.

So this shows that this entry has nothing to do with being one of 200 valid
orthographies. And now it is really up to you to show which LS orthography
this word conforms to.

> You again assert that they are misspellings. Given that Sabine is in the
> process of getting more resources for this discussion, it would be
> prudent to give it some time and not insist on instant resolution
> because this is not feasible.
To me that sounds like you are evading a discussion.

> First of all I have done nothing here; I have not imported the list, but
> given your point of view that only what you know to be correct should be
> inserted I do agree that what Sabine did is in line with the Wiki
> tradition. She provides information that people can comment on.
Do you really think that people in it.wiktionary.org will comment on that? If
you want comments, you can get them in nds.wiktionary.org, where we are doing
exactly that. And therefore I really cannot understand why she uploaded this
data into it.wiktionary.org. This just means that when UW will be available,
we will get all that data again. We can clean things up in
nds.wiktionary.org, but all the problems will reappear then.

> Again, I
> urge you to identify the words that you know to be correct for the
> orthography that they represent. This will ultimately give us a list of
> words that cannot be attributed to any orthography because they are
> wrong; they will then be indicated for what we will know at that time.
I think it is not neccessary to flag all words as nds-sass. The data that I
have entered/corrected is generally correct. If that is not sufficient for
you, I would still propose to have the main heading flagged with -nds- and to
have subheadings indicating the spellings and areas where this is correct. To
me it does not make so much sense to have all entries flagged as
"Plattd??tsch (Sass, Noordneddersassisch)". Or is that really what you want
to have? For me (and I think that the others from nds.wikipedia.org do think
the same) it would be sufficient to list deviant forms as such and I would
also like to place notes in the articles linking to other forms. But that
seems to be impossible? My suggestion is to work through the list to clean up
what can be easily cleaned up and then to have a look at what remains.
> >No Gerard, *you* have not delivered substantiated facts. Why haven't you
> >done that
> >all along. This discussion has been going on for several weeks now. And
> > your only
> >argument is that you found this spelling somewhere on the internet and
> >therefore
> >it is a valid spelling. You could of course try to import all this data
> > with the tag
> >"very private spelling of xy", but then I really have ask who should
> > profit from that?
> >Low Saxon is in a bad shape nowadays. And an nds.wiktionary.org needs to
> >present data
> >that reflect actual current usage of words and not private spellings. If
> >there should be
> >a place for very private spellings in wiktionary or UW, then certainly
> >*after* inserting
> >the real, current use as substantiated by dictionaries etc. of whatever
> >spelling. What I have been doing is cleaning up (as can be seen in
> >nds.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges). And I do think that this
> > has helped to make the data a lot more relevant.
>
> I am not party in this really because I am not gaining access to new
> resources. What I am doing is showing that what is being done is
> relevant and an acceptable way of going forward.
Sorry, I do not see that you have shown that the list is relevant.

> To make it relevant you have to state what orthography a word is
> http://nds.wiktionary.org/wiki/ankieken (a recently changed article)
> does not indicate an orthography and is from my point of view as
> relevant as any of the stuff Sabine uploaded.
I moved it to the basic form. The word is common Low Saxon and does not
require any further flagging.

> As mentioned before, this is the pot calling the kettle black. Start
> indicating orthographies and you prove the quality of your contributions.
Words that are common Low Saxon do not need further flagging. Besides I have
not seen such a thing in any other wiktionary.

> The software we are using is known to you; we use the pywikipedia bot
> software. No problems there. Generating the source for the bot is
> something that is often different depending on what we have for input.
> It is a typical handjob. If you have a list with Sass compliant words or
> a list with words in another orthography (preferably with at least one
> translation) I am quite happy to make you a source so that you can
> upload this. Are these KDE files .po files ??
I have had a look at the bot and I have had a look at the import file that
Sabine sent me by Email. (Which uses a different markup for start/end than in
the word file.) I have tried to understand the way pywikipedia bot works for
wiktionary, but I have not understand it. I would really be grateful for a
short examle consisting of
1) a short import file with 2-5 entries
2) the command line to use.
I would be able to work from there.
The data is in http://sourceforge.net/projects/aspell-nds. It is a word list
that we derived from the KDE po-files. We filtered out the Low Saxon parts
(the po file maps English to Low Saxon), broke it into words, sorted it,
counted it (with a short shell script) and used that to find inconsistencies
in our KDE op Platt. We then transformed this list into an input file for the
aspell spell checker. This list uses some words with a spelling deviant of
Sass: latin based words are submitted to the double vowel for long vowels. I
would correct that and add the German translation plus the grammar
information (noun, verb etc). The list is about 1500 words, and I think that
it should be relatively easy to create a list of several hundred words for
importing quite quickly.
>
> >Is there really no way for us to cooperate? Does anyone else here
> > understand what I am talking about for all this time?
>
> There are many ways in which we can cooperate but the bottom line is; to
> improve nds content you have to indicate the orthography because without
> it, the quality of the information is debatable.  So again let us work
> together and agree that knowing the orthography is key to proving the
> worth of individual lemmas.
Well, that would mean flagging all my entries as nds-sass? Is that what you
want? That still leaves the question what to do with the current list.
1) I would like to edit it (preferably as text file, because that is so much
faster) and then get it imported. That would have to be done by Sabine, as
she wants to see the original author attributed, or would it be sufficient to
indicate that in the checkin comment? (I really do need a short example to
see how the robot works.)
2) Concerning the data of deutschplatt: I would really like to see that data
*not* included unless the underlying spelling system can be confirmed in some
way. I think it does not make much sense to import this data without any
flagging, as there are grave doubts about lots of words (as I have been
telling for quite a long way). I would not object inserting that data if
2.1) the spelling system and the content can be substantiated. From what I had
started to work through, about half the entries cannot be substantiated, and
that is far too much.
2.2) the entries get flagged accordingly.
3) I would really like to find a way that can reuse the nds entries. I would
not like to see vain repetitions in "is" with a heading {{-nds-sass}}, a
heading {{nds-harte}} etc all with a complete set of translations.

Would that be a proposal that you can live with?

One other thing: is there a way to invert entries to get the German=>LS
entries prepared, so that they only need little rework or is it neccessary to
do that by hand?

> NB this whole exchange of e-mails is not really relevant to the
> Wikipedia-l so I will only answer from now on at the Wiktionary-l
I have not subscribed there so far. Hence the private mail.

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann


subject: [Wiktionary-l] private: nds.wiktionary.org

body:
One more thing:

concerning
"http://stade-buxtehude.de/platt/deutschplatt.htm Werner Eichelberg sien
dollet W??rbook"
1) I had not checked that part of [[nds:plattd??tsch Vokabular]]] in detail
before. (There are quite a number of pages in nds.wikipedia.org that I have
not read or at least not read in detail.
2) I had come across that dictionary quite some time ago when searching for
words for the translation of KDE. I had at that time already wondered about
some of the entries.
3) the meaning of doll is not German "toll" as Sabine thinks, but to be more
precise: toll; sehr, schlimm, stark; merkw?rdig; zornig, w?tend".
"Dat is to doll" is a fixed phrase in Low Saxon and it means "das ist nicht
auszuhalten", "this is unbearable", "this is going to far". (The original
meaning of "toll" in German is similar. Only later did that word aquire the
meaning "cool".) The most appropriate translation of "doll" into colloquial
English would be "Werner Eichelberg's crazy dictionary". I do not however
know whether the author of that page (Baas) was aware of the spectrum of
meanings of "dull".

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Welcoming Peter C. Wayner and...

body:
>   Please indicate the purpose of this account:
>   [*] Good
>   [ ] Evil

Excellent idea! Here's a more precise version.

   Please indicate the purpose of this account,
   mark all fields that apply:

   [*] Writing encyclopedia articles
   [ ] POV pushing
   [ ] Trolling
   [ ] Sockpuppeting
   [ ] Evading block
   [ ] Commercial spamming
   [ ] None of the above

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject: [Wikitech-l] cvs

body:
Dear Tim and Brion,

I did not see you on the IRC for a couple of days.

I'd kindly like to ask you for CVS access, as Hashar recommended to me
today,
so that I can commit http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2014
patchlet1 revisited for Enotif for REL1_5 and HEAD.

The 2014 patch fixes some problems, makes the interface to enotif clean,
UserTalkUpdate.php can be dropped.
It also introduces a new message marker for changes on the user page,
which quite a lot of users have asked for.
It relies on the existing only memchached bit for "usertalk newmessage".

You could study my (acquired) competences in CVS usages on
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/enotifwiki and
http://cvs.berlios.de/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/enotifwiki/enotifwiki/
(BerliOS also offers SUBVERSION; currently I use CVS)

Kind regards,
Tom (Wikinaut)