body:
On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
> place is seriously wrong.
>
> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.

Gerard, I don't mean to insult you. I agree that we need to improve
our behavior.

It's not at all clear to me that the enwiki community supports a
complete removal of that text... in fact, quite the opposite: A
recommendation against non-locally-readable question seems as well
supported as it ever was from the on wiki discussion. That some people
mostly outside the enwiki editing community have been especially loud
about the matter does not by itself justify the complete removal.

I have provided a list of all accounts that have been blocked that
have non-ascii characters. It is clear from even the most cursory
glance that the majority of these were created not by speakers of
other languages but as attempts to be cute or harmful.

After reading these painful threads and factoring in the above data, I
can only conclude that the view that enwikis policy was created as a
result of "ethnocentricism" rather than because such usernames are
widely used for vandalism and due to the inconvenience they present,
has yet to be supported by anything concrete.

This doesn't mean that I am dismissing your position: I share the view
that an improvement should be made, I do not share the your position
on the level or seriousness of the problem not your ease of dismissing
the real troubles that unprouncable/untypable names present to
shameful monoglots like myself.

Can we stop fighting against each other and instead work with each other?


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject:
[Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects
	other communities


list: foundation-l

body:
On 12/22/06, Bryan Tong Minh <bryan.tongminh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Please note that you cannot just remove a policy without further
> discussion. Gmaxwell did not revert the change because he disagreed
> with it content, but rather because he felt that you can not change a
> policy without discussion. Unfortunately some people seem to deny
> discussion, because they feel that the only way to change is screaming
> on the list that en is 'ethnocentric' without any contributions to the
> discussion.

Right, I want to see a change. I do not agree that removal is the
right change, but I do not think it is appropriate to make any change
simply as a reaction to a mailing list flamefest..

I think this especially true when many of the participants are not
necessarily active members of the community that the policy has the
greatest influence on.

I agree that we are all members of the entire Wikimedia community, and
that this policy has some influence on the entire community... But the
history of blocked names makes it clear to me that the implications of
this policy change throughout Wikimedia but outside of English
Wikipedia are far less substantial than the impact purely within
English Wikipedia.


from_name: James Hare

subject:
[Foundation-l] To all non latin wikis please start blocking
	latin wiki accounts

body:
Hi Walter,

I don't think it's about hatred and racism so much, but rather because
people aren't comfortable with someone with a name they can't comprehend.
Though I don't believe we should block people because of said
incomprehensible names. I still think the whole automatic transliteration is
a good idea; even if it doesn't work perfectly it still gives people an idea
of what's going on.

On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
>
> >* Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point
> >
> >
> Sometimes it is extremely usefull to disrupt something to get somewhere.
> Especially when the mechanism clogs up. I feel that whit such
> discrimination as is happening on en: and with random blocking just
> based on names some people need to wakened. What is next you are going
> to block everyone who is Dutch?
>
> >Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
> >subjects is disconcerning.
> >
> I really believe you need to reread an earlier mail I send about my
> reasons. I will inform my Ozzy, Kiwi Irish, English and American friends
> here that I have a huge hate for anglosaxon related subjects. They will
> have a good laugh with me about it. I am sure.
>
> > Your prejudgment prevents any constructive discussion.
> >
> I am extremely prejudiced were any form of discrimination is concerned
> yes. I have been on the receiving end of it far to many times in my
> life. In Surinam because I was the only white one in class. From when I
> was young because I am fat. And here in Thailand on occasions because I
> am a foreigner. So please o please do not come to me about prejudgement.
>
> >You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover a hypocrite.
> >
> Thx you forgot my other positives: Stubborn, rude and not afraid to piss
> someone off. If you are looking for a politically correct person to talk
> with who will talk roses in your face but who will use thorns when
> talking behind your back that is not who I am, go to someone else.
>
> >Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful, and prevents any
> further discussion.
> >
> >
> Nor are the actions on the en.wikipedia. Blocking people because they
> are different is not very conductive and creates hatred.
>
> Waerth
>
> >Bryan
> >
> >On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> >>languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
> >>accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> >>those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
> >>
> >>Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> >>extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> >>blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
> >>want to use their REAL NAME.
> >>
> >>Start with Gregory's account btw.
> >>
> >>Waerth
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Gregory Maxwell schreef:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
> >>>>>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
> >>>>
> >>>>It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
> >>>>people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
> >>>>enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
> >>>>
> >>>>As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
> >>>>to the talk page.
> >>>>
> >>>>I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
> >>>>concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
> >>>>many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
> >>>>address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
> >>>>in the first place.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Hoi,
> >>>Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
> >>>reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
> >>>by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has
> been
> >>>no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
> >>>wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
> >>>to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
> >>>thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
> >>>place is seriously wrong.
> >>>
> >>>I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks,
> >>>    GerardM
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>foundation-l mailing list
> >>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>foundation-l mailing list
> >>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >foundation-l mailing list
> >foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Birgitte SB

subject:
[Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire (was:
	English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities)

body:
--- Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin
> > usernames that are active editors?
>
> Yes
>
> [snip]
> > of blocking latin usernames started.  To find
> > non-latin usernames that have been blocked by this
> > policy you can look through
> >
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Temporary_Wikipedian_userpages&from=Z
>
> The first one I checked...
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E8%97%A4%E4%BA%95%E7%8C%AB%E3%82%86%E3%81%86%E3%81%BE
>
> is blocked for vandalism on jawiki:
>
>
http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5:Log&type=block&page=%E5%88%A9%E7%94%A8%E8%80%85:%E8%97%A4%E4%BA%95%E7%8C%AB%E3%82%86%E3%81%86%E3%81%BE
>
> :)
>
> You might also enjoy the list of blocked users with
> non-ascii
> characters in their names at:
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers/blocked
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

I think we have a different idea of what active is.
Two edits that are six months old isn't active to me.
 It appears from looking at the logs, the blocking of
non-Latin username became a regular practice in early
October. The non-latin reasoning was specifically
added to {{UsernameBlocked}} on Oct. 16.  I think if
we have non-latin editors that are active since
September (to give a little room for error)  that
would really mean something.  I also think three edits
should have been enough to be noticed on RC and
blocked if this is the standard practice.  Therefore
most non-latin editors with three edits since Sept.
should be blocked if my claim is true.  I don't think
the existance un-blocked non-latin editors who were
only active before Sept is significant.  But if you
believe a different time-period would be siginificant
please explain.

Birgitte SB

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


body:
On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> There are over 400,000 usernames on enwiki with non-ascii characters
> in them. Only 3,394 usernames with non-ascii characters have been
> blocked on enwiki.

The first number is in error. Almost everywhere usersnames are handled
in mediawiki, space characters are converted into underscores, but
this is not true in the user table. My failure to account for this
caused me to count usernames that contain spaces as once with
non-ascii characters.  I did not spot check the results because I used
the same matching expression that I used for the block log, and I had
carefully checked those results.

The correct total count for usernames with non-ascii characters is
7,678.  I apologise for this substantial error.  Although I don't
believe this in any way invalidates the claim that I made that enwiki
is not automatically blocking such names.


body:
On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
>
> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
> want to use their REAL NAME.
>
> Start with Gregory's account btw.

So long as they'll help me transliterate my name into acceptable
scripts, I have no complaints.

... although my next action will be to file a enhancement request to
support a visible name which differs from the login name so that I
don't have to remember hundreds of account names. Ideally both names
would be visable in edit histories and such, which would also be
useful for people who have a pseudonym for uniqueness issues but which
would rather use their real-name.

All that said, I think your approach to this is unfortunate and
needlessly hostile.


from_name: Luiz Augusto

body:
Hi

On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Regarding, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers
>
> On 12/21/06, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
> > If you want this to be meaningful, you need to remove accounts with only
> > Arabic numbers. Obviously these can be recognized easily by English-only
> > speakers.
>
> Some are, some are not. 863929163 is not too easily remembered,
> although I can type it. While 555 is a fine name for an English
> speaker to communicate with... Feel free to skip over the ones that
> seem too English compatible. With 1000 in the list there are plenty to
> look at.

Related to numbers-only usernames: since the activation of the Antispoof
extension is imposible to create a new user account of this type. I'am
([[m:User:555]]) unable to create new accounts on any Wikimedia, needing to
ask for a local admin to create a new one to me, or using my old
wiki-username. [1]

Others wikis have a policy fully disallowing any number on usernames. And,
the etnocentrich policy is currently active in some more Wikimedia wikis [2]

[1]
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical/27624/focus=27624
[2] http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Nome_utente#Nomi_utente_inappropriati,
http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Aiuto:Nome_utente#Nomi_utente_inappropriati


body:
In Latin Alphabet: Gmaxwell
In Cyrillic Alphabet: ????????
In Greek Alphabet: ????????
In Arabic Script: ????????

Unfortunately this webpage only does those three scripts.

On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> > After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> > languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
> > accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> > those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
> >
> > Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> > extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> > blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
> > want to use their REAL NAME.
> >
> > Start with Gregory's account btw.
>
> So long as they'll help me transliterate my name into acceptable
> scripts, I have no complaints.
>
> ... although my next action will be to file a enhancement request to
> support a visible name which differs from the login name so that I
> don't have to remember hundreds of account names. Ideally both names
> would be visable in edit histories and such, which would also be
> useful for people who have a pseudonym for uniqueness issues but which
> would rather use their real-name.
>
> All that said, I think your approach to this is unfortunate and
> needlessly hostile.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
--- Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > I think we have a different idea of what active
> is.
>
> No we dont, you're making the mistake of assuming my
> reply was to the
> message you just sent rather than the one you sent
> earlier.
>
> > The non-latin reasoning was specifically
> > added to {{UsernameBlocked}} on Oct. 16.
>
> The only policy related to non-latin names has been
> around for nearly a year.
>
> [snip]
> > But if you
> > believe a different time-period would be
> siginificant
> > please explain.
>
> I'm building the list you requested right now. It
> takes some time to
> scan through millions of edits.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Sorry about the confusion on messages.  I realise the
policy had mentioned non-latin usernames earlier but
it appears that the name changes were not always
enforced with blocks.  This practice seems to have
become standard in October.

Birgitte SB

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


body:
On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
[snip]
> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
> want to use their REAL NAME.

Ah, perhaps you could help us and point out all the real names which
enwiki has blocked.
The complete list of blocked names with non-ascii characters is
available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers/blocked

I am strongly opposed to blocking people who are using their real
name, and I've argued this in multiple places on the wiki.. But as far
as I can tell such block are not a frequent occurrence compared to the
number of blocks of 'cute' or vandal names.

Instead of blocking users which names which are difficult for people
people who speak other languages, I think we should accommodate them
and improve our software to help us deal with them. ... but that we
should still block names which are difficult to recognize and
difficult to type for all people... and continue to discourage locally
difficult names until the software has been improved.


list: wikien-l

from_name: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] The boundaries of OR (contd)

body:
jayjg wrote

<snip>

>let's not beat our readers over the head with our agenda.

Something I can agree with. 'Understatement adds credibility.' Should appear somewhere meta-ish. Does it?

Charles

-----------------------------------------
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Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information


from_name: David Strauss

subject: [Foundation-l] About characters

body:
I concur as well. The current discussions on this list are wholly
unbecoming of people working anywhere, and especially not at the core of
Wikimedia. I'm not just talking about the grandparent post.

David Strauss

effe iets anders wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> is it *please* possible to stay civil to eachother? Is it *please* possible
> to keep the discussion on the main points? When you are unable to agree with
> eachother you can start calling eachother names, and saying the other one
> does so, you can also either try to find a solution suitable for both,
> either a compromize either just accept that you disagree. These long threads
> are disruptive for this list, especially as more and more emails are about
> how people are, and not about the subject. I think very little people will
> stay reading this, but will also not read anymore the subjects that actually
> *do* have a relevant discussion as in talking about the subject. Please dont
> be distructive to eachother, and respect that people can sometimes have
> another opinion, and if they are not able to be persuiated, dont go on for
> ever on this list, but find other methods.
>
> Effeietsanders
>
> 2006/12/22, Bryan Tong Minh <bryan.tongminh at gmail.com>:
>> I fully understand it isn't. The point I wanted to make, but
>> formulated rather impolite was that hatred will never be solved by
>> hatred. It has been shown in the past, and will be shown in the
>> future. I will abstain from any further comments regarding this
>> thread, as it is its nature to grow into a flamewar.
>>
>> Bryan
>>
>> On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hoi Bryan,
>>> It is not polite nor helpful to say that someone is "immature and
>>> moreover a hypocrite". The only result is that you inflame the situation
>>> even more. It is bad as it is.
>>> Thanks,
>>>      GerardM
>>>
>>>
>>> Bryan Tong Minh schreef:
>>>> * Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point
>>>>
>>>> Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
>>>> subjects is disconcerning. Your prejudgment prevents any constructive
>>>> discussion.  You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover
>>>> a hypocrite. Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful,
>>>> and prevents any further discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Bryan
>>>>
>>>> On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
>>>>> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character
>> user
>>>>> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
>>>>> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
>>>>> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
>>>>> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because
>> people
>>>>> want to use their REAL NAME.
>>>>>
>>>>> Start with Gregory's account btw.
>>>>>
>>>>> Waerth
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gregory Maxwell schreef:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>>>>>>>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because
>> some
>>>>>>> people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
>>>>>>> enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some
>> suggestions
>>>>>>> to the talk page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
>>>>>>> concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work
>> across
>>>>>>> many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
>>>>>>> address the very real issues which caused the creation of the
>> policy
>>>>>>> in the first place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
>>>>>> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel
>> bruised
>>>>>> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has
>> been
>>>>>> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is
>> seriously
>>>>>> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change
>> continues
>>>>>> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change
>> and
>>>>>> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
>>>>>> place is seriously wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>     GerardM
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


subject: [Foundation-l] About characters


body:
To add to that, it's not so much a pronounciation but rather a way to take a
look at something and get a person's NAME out of it, rather than a series of
squiggles which to a person not educated about that particular language
looks like nonsense which somehow forms a representation of someone's
dignity.

On 12/22/06, Bryan Tong Minh <bryan.tongminh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I fully understand it isn't. The point I wanted to make, but
> formulated rather impolite was that hatred will never be solved by
> hatred. It has been shown in the past, and will be shown in the
> future. I will abstain from any further comments regarding this
> thread, as it is its nature to grow into a flamewar.
>
> Bryan
>
> On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi Bryan,
> > It is not polite nor helpful to say that someone is "immature and
> > moreover a hypocrite". The only result is that you inflame the situation
> > even more. It is bad as it is.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> >
> > Bryan Tong Minh schreef:
> > > * Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point
> > >
> > > Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
> > > subjects is disconcerning. Your prejudgment prevents any constructive
> > > discussion.  You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover
> > > a hypocrite. Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful,
> > > and prevents any further discussion.
> > >
> > > Bryan
> > >
> > > On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> > >> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character
> user
> > >> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> > >> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
> > >>
> > >> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> > >> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> > >> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because
> people
> > >> want to use their REAL NAME.
> > >>
> > >> Start with Gregory's account btw.
> > >>
> > >> Waerth
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Gregory Maxwell schreef:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
> > >>>>>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because
> some
> > >>>> people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
> > >>>> enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some
> suggestions
> > >>>> to the talk page.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
> > >>>> concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work
> across
> > >>>> many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
> > >>>> address the very real issues which caused the creation of the
> policy
> > >>>> in the first place.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> Hoi,
> > >>> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
> > >>> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel
> bruised
> > >>> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has
> been
> > >>> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is
> seriously
> > >>> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change
> continues
> > >>> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change
> and
> > >>> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
> > >>> place is seriously wrong.
> > >>>
> > >>> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>     GerardM
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
On 12/22/06, Luiz Augusto <lugusto at gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> and make a local query? Sincerely, I don't understand any effort to
> defend this stupid policy from English Wikipedia, like I don't understand
> the recent xenophobic on the latest steward elections. This policy, the
> votes like "generic vote against Anglo-American focus of all wiki-projects"
> and some small points are to me the same subject: bias
>
> I don't have time to talk in biased subjects, my free time is devoted to
> develop libre content.

Since you mention the policy, I wonder if you've read it....
The original formulation of the policy was:

"'''Avoid non-[[Latin alphabet|Latin]] characters'''. Most of your
fellow editors will be unable to read a name written in Cyrillic,
Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or other scripts. Many of them will be
additionally burdened, as such names will be displayed for them only
as question marks ("??? ??") or squares ("??? ??"). If your name is
usually written in a non-Latin script, please consider transliterating
it to avoid confusion, and allow easier access to your talk page by
typing your name in the search field or URL bar. However, you may use
other alphabets as alternate link text in your [[WP:SIG|signature]]."

Today it includes a little less explanation and the word avoid was removed.

"Names with non-Latin characters: Unfortunately, most of your fellow
editors will be unable to read a name written in Cyrillic, Chinese,
Japanese, Korean, or other scripts. Many of them will also be
additionally burdened, as such names may be displayed for them only as
question marks ("??? ??"), squares ("??? ??"), replacement characters
("??? ??") or worse, nonsense or mojibake ("?!%?s*"). If your name is
usually written in a non-Latin script, please consider transliterating
it to avoid confusion, and allow easier access to your talk page by
typing your name in the search field or URL bar."

If you really can read that as bias.. then I'm afraid we're just going
to have to disagree.

I guess I'll just have to be branded a "bigot against people named
mathematical symbols". ;)


body:
On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> As to the seriousness of the problem, consider what Aphaia said about
> this and how pained she is as a result.

The case Aphaia brought is unfortunate, but it's a single example. I
know there are a few more, but there are not many so far. I think that
situation would best be handled right now by simply by creating an
exception people who are active on projects which use such scripts.

>You call yourself a monoglot,

A statement of fact, although one which I hope is not always true.

> the problem is that you only see what you have learned to see. The
> problem of languages other than some 100 of the more economically
> important is that  they are not supported on the Internet. The majority
> of these are in Latin. The wish to make the Internet accessible in other
> scripts than Latin is another big battle field.

Please do not misunderstand me.
I do not think that, for example, Chineese is unimportant. I think it
is very important. However, I do think that chineese *usernames* on
English Wikipedia are fairly unimportant for two reasons:

1) The number of non-ascii names which have been created is very small
compared to the total.
2) On Chinese wikipedia, most of the active usernames appear to be in
latin script, [http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges]. ..
I checked the twenty most recent blue linked zh latin script
usernames, and only three had enwiki accounts.

I think that a local-script usernames policy would actually be helpful
for other languages to keep their UI from being constantly disrupted
by latin characters. :)

[snip]
> With SUL things will be different in the WMF, this is when it will be
> possible to find where a user is active, this is when Anthere's proposal
> can be implemented. Let us hope that Brion will be able to finish this soon.

Yes, if we can see that a user is active elsewhere it will be a very good thing.

> So yes, let us work together but do not deny that the problem is
> serious, it is very much outside of your terms of reference.

I trust that you will always remind me when I am missing something
because of my background.

Thanks.


from_name: Kat Walsh

subject: [Foundation-l] About characters

body:
On 12/22/06, effe iets anders <effeietsanders at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> is it *please* possible to stay civil to eachother? Is it *please* possible
> to keep the discussion on the main points? When you are unable to agree with
> eachother you can start calling eachother names, and saying the other one
> does so, you can also either try to find a solution suitable for both,
> either a compromize either just accept that you disagree. These long threads
> are disruptive for this list, especially as more and more emails are about
> how people are, and not about the subject. I think very little people will
> stay reading this, but will also not read anymore the subjects that actually
> *do* have a relevant discussion as in talking about the subject. Please dont
> be distructive to eachother, and respect that people can sometimes have
> another opinion, and if they are not able to be persuiated, dont go on for
> ever on this list, but find other methods.

Thank you. I agree.

-Kat

--
Wikimedia needs you: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising
* *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mindspillage | (G)AIM:Mindspillage
mindspillage or mind|wandering on irc.freenode.net | email for phone


subject: [Foundation-l] About characters


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [Foundation-l] Automatic username transliteration for SUL

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> David Gerard schreef:
>> On 21/12/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> When you get ?????? it makes sense to install more fonts. The use of IPA
>>> is problematic because it is often done incorrectly and most people have
>>> not had training to do IPA correctly. It takes a lot of training to do
>>> this correctly. My name for instance is notoriously difficult to
>>> pronounce for people who are not Dutch while even a name like "Bob"
>>> should be written in many ways when you consider in how many ways it is
>>> pronounced.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed. But we're not going to be able to make it a requirement of
>> editing en:wp that users install more fonts on their (arguably broken)
>> default-install Windows box.
>>
>>
>> - d.
> Hoi,
> You do not have to make it a requirement as it is their option to
> upgrade their system with better font support. As there is a reasonable
> solution that is open to people, it is unreasonable to expect others to
> accommodate them by insisting on having a transliteration, a Latin nick,
> having people appear to be a number.\
>

"I am a man, not a number!"...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> David Gerard schreef:
>> On 21/12/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> When you get ?????? it makes sense to install more fonts. The use of IPA
>>> is problematic because it is often done incorrectly and most people have
>>> not had training to do IPA correctly. It takes a lot of training to do
>>> this correctly. My name for instance is notoriously difficult to
>>> pronounce for people who are not Dutch while even a name like "Bob"
>>> should be written in many ways when you consider in how many ways it is
>>> pronounced.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed. But we're not going to be able to make it a requirement of
>> editing en:wp that users install more fonts on their (arguably broken)
>> default-install Windows box.
>>
>>
>> - d.
> Hoi,
> You do not have to make it a requirement as it is their option to
> upgrade their system with better font support. As there is a reasonable
> solution that is open to people, it is unreasonable to expect others to
> accommodate them by insisting on having a transliteration, a Latin nick,
> having people appear to be a number.\
>

"I am a man, not a number!"...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> David Gerard schreef:
>> On 21/12/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> When you get ?????? it makes sense to install more fonts. The use of IPA
>>> is problematic because it is often done incorrectly and most people have
>>> not had training to do IPA correctly. It takes a lot of training to do
>>> this correctly. My name for instance is notoriously difficult to
>>> pronounce for people who are not Dutch while even a name like "Bob"
>>> should be written in many ways when you consider in how many ways it is
>>> pronounced.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed. But we're not going to be able to make it a requirement of
>> editing en:wp that users install more fonts on their (arguably broken)
>> default-install Windows box.
>>
>>
>> - d.
> Hoi,
> You do not have to make it a requirement as it is their option to
> upgrade their system with better font support. As there is a reasonable
> solution that is open to people, it is unreasonable to expect others to
> accommodate them by insisting on having a transliteration, a Latin nick,
> having people appear to be a number.\
>

"I am a man, not a number!"...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> David Gerard schreef:
>> On 21/12/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> When you get ?????? it makes sense to install more fonts. The use of IPA
>>> is problematic because it is often done incorrectly and most people have
>>> not had training to do IPA correctly. It takes a lot of training to do
>>> this correctly. My name for instance is notoriously difficult to
>>> pronounce for people who are not Dutch while even a name like "Bob"
>>> should be written in many ways when you consider in how many ways it is
>>> pronounced.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed. But we're not going to be able to make it a requirement of
>> editing en:wp that users install more fonts on their (arguably broken)
>> default-install Windows box.
>>
>>
>> - d.
> Hoi,
> You do not have to make it a requirement as it is their option to
> upgrade their system with better font support. As there is a reasonable
> solution that is open to people, it is unreasonable to expect others to
> accommodate them by insisting on having a transliteration, a Latin nick,
> having people appear to be a number.\
>

"I am a man, not a number!"...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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body:
On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/22/06, Gianluigi Gamba <gigamb at tin.it> wrote:
> > It's an invitation to prefer Latin script in order to make the search
> > easier, not a strict prohibition.
> > Usernames written entirely with non-Latin script are not blocked
> > automatically.
>
> Although it might be hard to tell from the accusations in this thread:
> They are not blocked automatically on enwiki either.

Gianluigi is right to assert the issue for the Italian Wikipedia: this isn't
a auto-block, first the users talks). But sorry Gregory, English Wikipedia
really make auto-blocks until no first talk.
----
01:41, 19 June 2006
?<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%C2%AC&action=edit>(
Talk<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%C2%AC&action=edit>|
contribs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%AC>) New
user account (Talk<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%C2%AC&action=edit>|
contribs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%AC> |
block<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Blockip/%C2%AC>
)
01:43, 19 June 2006 Pschemp <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pschemp> (
Talk <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pschemp> |
contribs<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pschemp>)
blocked "?<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%C2%AC&action=edit>(
contribs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%AC>)" with
an expiry time of indefinite ({{usernameblock}} non standard characters)
-----
User with 0 edits, 0 deleted edits, and 0 messages on his talk page.


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Assume good faith" is no longer policy.

body:
On 22/12/06, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Steve Bennett wrote:
> >On 12/19/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:

> >>It's like "don't be a dick".  The idea is to do it, not to quote it.

> >I personally agree with Jimbo's elevation of "assume good faith" to be
> >the single mantra which binds us together and makes Wikipedia work.
> >Everyone *does* need to know about. You don't enforce it, you don't
> >beat people over the head with it, but you do make sure people are
> >aware of its existence, and hope they follow it.

> That's better.  More than either a rule or a guideline, "assume good
> faith" is a principle.  It is integral to the five pillars.

It's what I think of as the absolute hard policy - the constitution.

Content: Neutral Point Of View, Verifiability, No Original Research
Community: No Personal Attacks, Assume Good Faith.

I suggest to people that they treat Don't Bite The Newbies as being in
the Community list. Since occasional contributors seem to write a
tremendous amount of our text.

These would be the "constitution" as new rules and procedures should
be considered in terms of them, and ideally as following directly from
them, as directly as possible.

(This is the thrust of the [[Wikipedia:Practical process]] essay,
which as it states at the top is intended to provoke thought and
thoughtfulness rather than be a tick-the-boxes guideline.)

- d.


from_name: Ilmari Karonen

subject: [WikiEN-l] The boundaries of OR (contd)

body:
jayjg wrote:
> On 12/22/06, Ilmari Karonen <nospam at vyznev.net> wrote:
>>jayjg wrote:
>>>On 12/21/06, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>You can't prove a negative, but you can certainly say "his book is
>>>>not in the Cornell University Library" or whatever, and cite a link
>>>>to the search or a description of how to do the search. This doesn't
>>>>seem very different to me from a citation.
>>>
>>>No, you absolutely cannot do that, for reasons eloquently stated
>>>elsewhere. The claim that it is not in the Cornell University Library
>>>is a novel conclusion based on your own original research;
>>
>>I would disagree, and say that it is a claim made by the library
>>catalogue, and thus properly sourced to them.  The claim may be one made
>>by omission, but, insofar as the catalogue claims to be comprehensive,
>>it is nonetheless an unambiguous claim.
>
> But that catalog has made *no* claims; it can't, it simply exists.
> Rather, some Wikipedia editor has made a claim *on behalf of the
> catalog*.

By that logic, books don't make claims either, they simply exist.

A official library catalog constitues a very clear unambiguous claim by
the library that "our library contains these books."  If the catalog is
described as a comprehensive one, it includes the further claim "...and
no others."

>>If the catalogue does not claim to be comprehensive, or if there is
>>doubt about its accuracy, it may be better to phrase the statement
>>explicitly as "his book is not listed in the Cornell University Library
>>catalogue."
>
> And who do we source that claim to? Zero0000? Daniel Smith?

We source it to the catalog, as published by the library, as it existed
on the date it was checked.  Just as we would source claims about the
inclusion of a company on the Fortune 500 list to the list itself, as
published by _Fortune_.

> What does
> the footnote say: "Wikipedia editor Daniel Smith ran this specific
> search on the catalog on December 11, 2006, and it did not return any
> results"? Ridiculous.

<ref>[[Cornell University Library]] [http://catalog.library.cornell.edu/
catalog].  URL accessed on December 11, 2006.</ref>

For bonus points, include the direct link to the search results.  This
would be comparable to mentioning a specific page when citing a book:
recommended, but not required.  For extra bonus points, include a link
to an archived copy of the results on webcitation.org.

> Assuming you'd searched through the cards properly, one card hadn't
> stuck to the back of another, or been temporarily removed for some
> reason, or...

Books can have errors too, and it's possible to misunderstand them.
Does not mean we have to stop citing them.

>>Or would you also consider the statement "IttyBittySoft was not listed
>>in the Fortune 500 list for 2006" to be OR?
>
> Why on earth would one ever want to put such a statement into an
> article? It's clear that the only reason would be to make some sort of
> argument, push some sort of POV regarding IttyBittySoft. Why not just
> stated the obvious facts, and leave it at that? "IttyBittySoft
> reported annual revenues of $36 million in 2006". That's all we need
> to say; let's not beat our readers over the head with our agenda.

Presumably because some other source (most likely IttyBittySoft
themselves) did in fact claim they were "one of America's 100 largest
corporations" or something to that effect.  That would be absurd, of
course, but you'd be surprised what claims people might make.  (See
f.ex. [[Office of International Treasury Control]].)

Or maybe an otherwise credible source confused them with Microsoft (and
never bothered to publish a correction).

--
Ilmari Karonen


body:
On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin
> usernames that are active editors?

Yes

[snip]
> of blocking latin usernames started.  To find
> non-latin usernames that have been blocked by this
> policy you can look through
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Temporary_Wikipedian_userpages&from=Z

The first one I checked...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E8%97%A4%E4%BA%95%E7%8C%AB%E3%82%86%E3%81%86%E3%81%BE

is blocked for vandalism on jawiki:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5:Log&type=block&page=%E5%88%A9%E7%94%A8%E8%80%85:%E8%97%A4%E4%BA%95%E7%8C%AB%E3%82%86%E3%81%86%E3%81%BE

:)

You might also enjoy the list of blocked users with non-ascii
characters in their names at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers/blocked


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] The boundaries of OR (contd)

body:
> On 12/19/06, Matthew Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> A database search like that described is different; it's not
>> definitive and not a single source that can be cited.  It's headed
>> into original research to deem the results definitive and decisive;
>> there is no guarantee whatsoever that the results have to be
>> exhaustive and complete.

There's no need at all to "deem the result definitive and decisive,"
any more than we deem that everything with a cited reliable source is
"true." The search and its result can simply be stated. The standard
is "verifiability, not truth," and the issue is whether an
independent observer can repeat the same search on the same database
and get the same results.

You just cite the source and make sure anyone else can verify it. You
don't _evaluate_ the source beyond making sure it meets the "reliable
source" standards... which are of course loose (and disputed).

Just as one might say "the word 'floccinaucinihilipilification' is an
entry word in the Oxford English Dictionary," or "the word
'floccinaucinihilipilification' is not an entry word in Merriam-
Webster's Third International dictionary." Both are highly meaningful
and objective, and both refer to respected authorities.

There's no need to draw any conclusions such as
"floccinaucinihilipilification is a word" or
"floccinaucinihilipilification is not a word" or
"floccinaucinihilipilification is a British word but not an American
word."

>


body:
I apologise for the audacious use of those letters. Do you know where I can
find a better way to get words transliterated?

--James

On 12/22/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/22/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> > In Cyrillic Alphabet: ????????
>
> At least not correct in Serbian and Macedonian. We don't have "?" and
> we don't have double "?".
>
> Keep in mind that Russian-Bulgarian transcription of Latin names would
> be treated as offensive at Serbian and Macedonian projects.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] The boundaries of OR (contd) (Ray Saintonge)

body:
jayjg wrote:
>
> No, the accurate statement is "This specific online search by Daniel
> P.B. Smith on this specific date did not return any results".

I highly doubt the identity of the person who looked in the catalog is
relevant.  I suppose it would be technically possible for an online
catalog to deliberately return different results to different users, but
  I would not really call any site that did that a "catalog", much less
a reliable source.

So we're down to "as of this date, no books by this author were listed
in the official online catalog of this library."  Doesn't sound all that
ridiculous to me.

(Elsewhere you've complained about the supposed difficulty of repeating
the search.  You do realize that most, if not all, library catalogues
allow you to link directly to search results?)

> And, of
> course, there's no guarantee that 1 minute after Daniel P.B. Smith
> does his search, the book will not be acquired, or entered into the
> catalog, or re-indexed properly because it had been improperly entered
> before, or...

If it indeed happens one minute later, what will happen is that Daniel
P.B. Smith will look foolish -- or would, if the catalog did not show
when the record was added.

If it happens later, there are two possibilities.  One is that no-one
will notice, in which case we will continue to cite an old version of
the source until someone does.  Assuming the original citation included
the date of access, as our guidelines recommend for all ephemeral
sources, this is not a problem: we do not pretend out information is
always up to date.

The other possibility, of course, is that someone (perhaps even Daniel
P.B. Smith himself) does check the source and finds that it no longer
matches the claim in the article.  The reasonable thing to do in that
case is to change the article.  The only problem occurs if the person
who notices the mismatch fails to assume good faith and, mistakenly,
accuses Daniel of deliberately lying -- but hopefully, even if no
objective record of the change remains, other neutral editors will have
previously verified the source and can confirm that Daniel's claim in
fact used to match the source.

If not, the outcome is the same as in the one-minute scenario: Daniel
may suffer a blow to his credibility.  Note that, in any case, the risk
is _only_ to Daniel's personal reputation, provided that the article is
corrected as soon as the nmismatch is noticed; if Wikipedia's reputation
were in any significant way harmed by mistakes that were corrected when
found, we wouldn't have any reputation left to harm anyway.  (Some may,
of course, argue that this is in fact the case.)

--
Ilmari Karonen


subject: [WikiEN-l] The boundaries of OR (contd)

body:
> No, the accurate statement is "This specific online search by Daniel
> P.B. Smith on this specific date did not return any results". And, of
> course, there's no guarantee that 1 minute after Daniel P.B. Smith
> does his search, the book will not be acquired, or entered into the
> catalog, or re-indexed properly because it had been improperly entered
> before, or...

There's no guarantee, but if someone tries the search a minute later
and gets a different result, and it's not from some transient glitch,
they can edit the claim or remove it.

> Databases, library catalogues, and similar ephemera are complex beasts
> that have little in common with printed works.

There's no guarantee that two different physical copies of the same
printed work have the same contents, either. I can tell you from
personal experience that there are in existence copies of songbooks
published by SPEBSQSA that have identical titles, paginations,
copyright dates, credits for the arrangements, etc, yet have
significant differences in the notes on the page. We usually find it
out when the chorus starts singing and different guys in the same
section are singing different things. If you ordered it in 1990, you
got a different arrangement than if you ordered the "identical" book
in 1980. Someone at the Society thought it was OK to correct or
improve the arrangements without any indication that anything had
changed.

I don't believe for a minute that this is the only example of that in
the world.

It's highly _likely_ that it wouldn't be true of a book by a
respectable publisher--they'd bump the number of the printing or
something. It's also highly likely that two queries to an electronic
library catalog, a minute apart, will yield the same results


subject: [WikiEN-l] The boundaries of OR (contd)

body:
phoebe ayers wrote:
> On 12/22/06, Ilmari Karonen <nospam at vyznev.net> wrote:
>>
>>None of the problems previously mentioned with legal databases apply to
>>library catalogues, which I would rather compare to other common
>>catalogue works such as phone books and dictionaries.  In fact, ten or
>>twenty years ago, one could even have pointed to the filing cabinets
>>full of index cards and said "here's your printed source".  :-)
>
> The problems are exactly the same; they're the same sort of beast. A legal
> or other bibliographic database indexes articles, proceedings and books that
> are published in some pre-determined subset of all the journals in the
> world; a library catalog indexes books that are held in a particular
> institution (a subset of all the books in the world). A catalog is simply a
> database of books; see worldcat.org.

Yes, but I don't believe anyone was suggesting to cite a library catalog
in support of a claim about all the books in the world -- that would be
as absurd as basing a claim about all the people in the world on a
single biography.

The difference is that, at least for some library catalogs, the subset
of books they cover is well defined (all the books in library X) and of
potentially legitimate interest in an encylopedia article.

--
Ilmari Karonen


body:
On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/22/06, Luiz Augusto <lugusto at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Gianluigi is right to assert the issue for the Italian Wikipedia: this
> isn't
> > a auto-block, first the users talks). But sorry Gregory, English
> Wikipedia
> > really make auto-blocks until no first talk.
>
> There are over 400,000 usernames on enwiki with non-ascii characters
> in them. Only 3,394 usernames with non-ascii characters have been
> blocked on enwiki.
>
> Enwiki is big enough to find single examples to support virtually any
> claim.
>
> Furthermore, you first example is only furthering the argument that
> enwiki's policy is not ethnocentric.

Do you really want to me download the latest
enwiki-latest-logging.sql.gz<http://download.wikimedia.org/enwiki/latest/enwiki-latest-logging.sql.gz>file
and make a local query? Sincerely, I don't understand any effort to
defend this stupid policy from English Wikipedia, like I don't understand
the recent xenophobic on the latest steward elections. This policy, the
votes like "generic vote against Anglo-American focus of all wiki-projects"
and some small points are to me the same subject: bias

I don't have time to talk in biased subjects, my free time is devoted to
develop libre content.


body:
On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think we have a different idea of what active is.

No we dont, you're making the mistake of assuming my reply was to the
message you just sent rather than the one you sent earlier.

> The non-latin reasoning was specifically
> added to {{UsernameBlocked}} on Oct. 16.

The only policy related to non-latin names has been around for nearly a year.

[snip]
> But if you
> believe a different time-period would be siginificant
> please explain.

I'm building the list you requested right now. It takes some time to
scan through millions of edits.


from_name: Nathaniel Krause

body:
While this may well be important, it doesn't seem to be quite the same thing as what we've been discussing, i.e. whether usernames should be transliterated into the script that is local to the Wikipedia in question, not whether the result of the transliteration will seem correct in a given language. It may be that лл never appears in Serbian and Montenegrin, but nobody on en would object to a username containing "Qv", even though that sequence never appears in English. A topic which may have to be discussed at some point but which seems rather tangential right now is whether the Cyrillic script (or the Latin, for that matter) is one alphabet or several.

Cheers,

Nat Krause

On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic wrote:

Hm. In Serbian and Macedonian we are using strictly transcriptions,
not transliterations. So, it should be something like
English->IPA->Serbian/Macedonian. Howerver, the process is not so
simple and in some cases we are using combinied transcription and
transliteration, as well as somtimes historic names. The best examples
are name Angela and surname Wales -- for both of them we are using
historical names (not transcription Ејнџела but historical name
Анђела; not transcription Вејлз, but historical name for the country
Walest -- Велс). However, engine is
 possible.

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Gianluigi Gamba

subject:
[Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire (was:
 English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities)

body:
Luiz Augusto ha scritto:
> Others wikis have a policy fully disallowing any number on usernames. And,
> the etnocentrich policy is currently active in some more Wikimedia wikis [2]
>
> [2] http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Nome_utente#Nomi_utente_inappropriati,
> http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Aiuto:Nome_utente#Nomi_utente_inappropriati
>
>
It's an invitation to prefer Latin script in order to make the search
easier, not a strict prohibition.
Usernames written entirely with non-Latin script are not blocked
automatically.

G.


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire

body:
Gregory Maxwell a ?crit :
> On 12/22/06, Gianluigi Gamba <gigamb at tin.it> wrote:
>
>>It's an invitation to prefer Latin script in order to make the search
>>easier, not a strict prohibition.
>>Usernames written entirely with non-Latin script are not blocked
>>automatically.
>
> Although it might be hard to tell from the accusations in this thread:
> They are not blocked automatically on enwiki either.

This was shown several times to be false.

Yann


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject:
[Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects
 other communities

body:
Gregory Maxwell schreef:
> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>>
>
> Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
>
> It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
> people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
> enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
>
> As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
> to the talk page.
>
> I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
> concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
> many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
> address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
> in the first place.
Hoi,
Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
place is seriously wrong.

I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.

Thanks,
     GerardM


body:
On 22/12/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:

> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
> want to use their REAL NAME.
> Start with Gregory's account btw.

Why is Waerth not on moderation?

- d.


from_name: Ben Yates

subject: [WikiEN-l] New Wikipedia posters in the store: Think Free

body:
I designed this poster/campaign and thought you guys would be
interested.  (Mav came up with the slogan.)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Think_Free

--
Ben Yates
Wikipedia blog - http://wikip.blogspot.com


from_name: Stephen Bain

body:
On 12/22/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How do I tell a vandle from a newbie from Ja.wikipeida?

You look at their contributions. How else would you tell?

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Aphaia

body:
Hello, um,

On 12/22/06, George Herbert <george.herbert at gmail.com> wrote:
> Users who've done 1,000+ edits on Korean, Serbian, Chinese, Inuktitut
> etc WPs are not the users we are afraid of here, Gerard.

I understand you think so. But here I need to say no. No regretfully
you are. Or your deeds seems to be only so.

Please back to the first of this thread with me for a while. The user
whose username change request had me bring this topic up to the list
is a
- foundationwiki editor
- Japanese Wikinews bureaucrat since 2005/7
- Japanese Wikipedia sysop since 2006/3
- he has 1000+ edits on several projects.
- his oldest edit on English Wikipedia was submitted in 2005/7
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20060331160923&limit=50&target=Qzzz
* Note: his English Wikipedia name was already altered.

And you English Wikipedia admin blocked him and his IP permanently on
sight. Sadly I need to add and he is not the sole victim. I know
another trusted user who was forced to change his username. This user
changed his username on other projects including Japanese because he
would have liked to name consistence. And I don't think they are
exceptional  - there may be other similar editors. That is what you
have been doing. Or still.

I don't criticize you - but I feel you haven't fully confronted what
you are doing yet. In generally, without the recognition of symptoms
real improvement of behavior is hardly accomplished. I expect you
realize your words and deeds are contradict, know what is the problem,
and we'll find solution at the end.

Cheers,
--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *


subject:
[Foundation-l] To all non latin wikis please start blocking
 latin wiki accounts

body:
Hoi,
Walter, I do not think that is a wise idea, it would be akin as to what
resulted in the mess when the Transnistrians and the Moldovans forbade
the script used by the other. We do not want to go there in the
Wikimedia Foundation. Gregory's action is extremely disappointing but
having all people with a Latin name suffer as a consequence .. it should
not become that polarised.
Thanks,
    GerardM

Walter van Kalken schreef:
> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
>
> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
> want to use their REAL NAME.
>
> Start with Gregory's account btw.
>
> Waerth
>
>
>> Gregory Maxwell schreef:
>>
>>> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
>>>
>>> It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
>>> people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
>>> enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
>>>
>>> As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
>>> to the talk page.
>>>
>>> I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
>>> concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
>>> many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
>>> address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
>>> in the first place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Hoi,
>> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
>> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
>> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
>> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
>> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
>> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
>> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
>> place is seriously wrong.
>>
>> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>     GerardM


from_name: James Hare

body:
Guys, girls, people (and objects) who are neither,

We will not go anywhere if we keep shouting "RACISM!!!!! DIEDIEDIE" back and
forth. I am dead serious about this.

If you want to get anywhere, we must discuss objectively and address the
issues like mature ladies and gentlemen.

Pros:
- Less of a technical issue on English Wikipedia for those who don't have
the ability (or permission) to install new fonts
- Allows people of the community to identify people with a name they can
understand, as opposed to using what they will just see as squiggly lines.

Being able to fight vandalism was a pro, but then technical fixes came along
that prohibited mixing different writing scripts.

Cons:
- Does not allow people to use the name they really want.
- SUL issues: with all sorts of different usernames, it'll be hard to have a
-single- user login when you have to have multiple because of script
requirements.

I've stated this many times -- I like the idea of system transliteration for
each wiki. Or at least a way to have an identity that's different from the
username you log in with, so you can have a uniform username but you can be
identified with what will be considered a comprehendable name.

What other remedies can you suggest?

Serious discussion starts now.

On 12/22/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/23/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
> >
> > There is no pratical way to do that.
>
> (Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it
> on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Bryan Tong Minh

body:
* Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point

Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
subjects is disconcerning. Your prejudgment prevents any constructive
discussion.  You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover
a hypocrite. Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful,
and prevents any further discussion.

Bryan

On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
>
> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
> want to use their REAL NAME.
>
> Start with Gregory's account btw.
>
> Waerth
>
> >Gregory Maxwell schreef:
> >
> >
> >>On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
> >>
> >>It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
> >>people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
> >>enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
> >>
> >>As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
> >>to the talk page.
> >>
> >>I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
> >>concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
> >>many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
> >>address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
> >>in the first place.
> >>
> >>
> >Hoi,
> >Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
> >reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
> >by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
> >no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
> >wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
> >to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
> >thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
> >place is seriously wrong.
> >
> >I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >     GerardM
> >_______________________________________________
> >foundation-l mailing list
> >foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
Hello,

Please note that you cannot just remove a policy without further
discussion. Gmaxwell did not revert the change because he disagreed
with it content, but rather because he felt that you can not change a
policy without discussion. Unfortunately some people seem to deny
discussion, because they feel that the only way to change is screaming
on the list that en is 'ethnocentric' without any contributions to the
discussion.

Bryan

On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Gregory Maxwell schreef:
> > On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
> >>
> >
> > Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
> >
> > It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
> > people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
> > enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
> >
> > As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
> > to the talk page.
> >
> > I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
> > concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
> > many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
> > address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
> > in the first place.
> Hoi,
> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
> place is seriously wrong.
>
> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
>
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject:
[Foundation-l] To all non latin wikis please start
 blocking	latin wiki accounts

body:
Hoi Bryan,
It is not polite nor helpful to say that someone is "immature and
moreover a hypocrite". The only result is that you inflame the situation
even more. It is bad as it is.
Thanks,
     GerardM

Bryan Tong Minh schreef:
> * Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point
>
> Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
> subjects is disconcerning. Your prejudgment prevents any constructive
> discussion.  You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover
> a hypocrite. Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful,
> and prevents any further discussion.
>
> Bryan
>
> On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
>> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
>> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
>> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
>> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
>>
>> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
>> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
>> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
>> want to use their REAL NAME.
>>
>> Start with Gregory's account btw.
>>
>> Waerth
>>
>>
>>> Gregory Maxwell schreef:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
>>>>
>>>> It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
>>>> people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
>>>> enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
>>>>
>>>> As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
>>>> to the talk page.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
>>>> concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
>>>> many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
>>>> address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
>>>> in the first place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
>>> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
>>> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
>>> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
>>> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
>>> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
>>> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
>>> place is seriously wrong.
>>>
>>> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>     GerardM
>


body:
I fully understand it isn't. The point I wanted to make, but
formulated rather impolite was that hatred will never be solved by
hatred. It has been shown in the past, and will be shown in the
future. I will abstain from any further comments regarding this
thread, as it is its nature to grow into a flamewar.

Bryan

On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi Bryan,
> It is not polite nor helpful to say that someone is "immature and
> moreover a hypocrite". The only result is that you inflame the situation
> even more. It is bad as it is.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
>
> Bryan Tong Minh schreef:
> > * Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point
> >
> > Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
> > subjects is disconcerning. Your prejudgment prevents any constructive
> > discussion.  You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover
> > a hypocrite. Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful,
> > and prevents any further discussion.
> >
> > Bryan
> >
> > On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> >
> >> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> >> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character user
> >> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> >> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
> >>
> >> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> >> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> >> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because people
> >> want to use their REAL NAME.
> >>
> >> Start with Gregory's account btw.
> >>
> >> Waerth
> >>
> >>
> >>> Gregory Maxwell schreef:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because some
> >>>> people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
> >>>> enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
> >>>>
> >>>> As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some suggestions
> >>>> to the talk page.
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
> >>>> concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work across
> >>>> many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
> >>>> address the very real issues which caused the creation of the policy
> >>>> in the first place.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Hoi,
> >>> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
> >>> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
> >>> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
> >>> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
> >>> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
> >>> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
> >>> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
> >>> place is seriously wrong.
> >>>
> >>> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>     GerardM
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Brianna Laugher

subject: [Foundation-l] Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

body:
On 22/12/06, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> [reorganising thread for readability]

> Well, from my experience with translating to and from Latin, Greek,
> French and German, a good dictionary will contain notes on usage that
> should suffice here.

These are all Indo-European languages. Translating across language
families which are less likely to share common cultural assumptions
and practices can be far more problematic I imagine.

cheers,
Brianna
user:pfctdayelise


body:
Hoi,
Gregory you have not insulted me, you have upset me. The first would
prevent cooperation, the second does not.
There are two distinct things to consider. Functionality and time.
With the software that prevents mixed script user names, a large part of
the problem has been resolved. Anthere made a good suggestion in that
when we get SUL we can provide some metrics about a user for instance an
indicator for bureaucrat / admin / steward some metrics of positive
edits. These metrics would punish POV pushers and talk page warriors.
At this moment we sadly do not have SUL, so it is not easily possible to
verify that a user is indeed that user of that other project.

As to the seriousness of the problem, consider what Aphaia said about
this and how pained she is as a result. You call yourself a monoglot,
the problem is that you only see what you have learned to see. The
problem of languages other than some 100 of the more economically
important is that  they are not supported on the Internet. The majority
of these are in Latin. The wish to make the Internet accessible in other
scripts than Latin is another big battle field. Neil says that our
problems are a picknick compared to this. When you consider that the
tools that create the Internet and other computer generated content do
not really support the use of languages as only 15% of the web content
has a language code and much of it is not correct according to the
Standards.

With SUL things will be different in the WMF, this is when it will be
possible to find where a user is active, this is when Anthere's proposal
can be implemented. Let us hope that Brion will be able to finish this soon.

So yes, let us work together but do not deny that the problem is
serious, it is very much outside of your terms of reference.
Thanks,
     GerardM

Gregory Maxwell schreef:
> On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
>> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel bruised
>> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has been
>> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is seriously
>> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change continues
>> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change and
>> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
>> place is seriously wrong.
>>
>> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
>>
>
> Gerard, I don't mean to insult you. I agree that we need to improve
> our behavior.
>
> It's not at all clear to me that the enwiki community supports a
> complete removal of that text... in fact, quite the opposite: A
> recommendation against non-locally-readable question seems as well
> supported as it ever was from the on wiki discussion. That some people
> mostly outside the enwiki editing community have been especially loud
> about the matter does not by itself justify the complete removal.
>
> I have provided a list of all accounts that have been blocked that
> have non-ascii characters. It is clear from even the most cursory
> glance that the majority of these were created not by speakers of
> other languages but as attempts to be cute or harmful.
>
> After reading these painful threads and factoring in the above data, I
> can only conclude that the view that enwikis policy was created as a
> result of "ethnocentricism" rather than because such usernames are
> widely used for vandalism and due to the inconvenience they present,
> has yet to be supported by anything concrete.
>
> This doesn't mean that I am dismissing your position: I share the view
> that an improvement should be made, I do not share the your position
> on the level or seriousness of the problem not your ease of dismissing
> the real troubles that unprouncable/untypable names present to
> shameful monoglots like myself.
>
> Can we stop fighting against each other and instead work with each other?


from_name: effe iets anders

subject: [Foundation-l]  About characters

body:
Hi all,

is it *please* possible to stay civil to eachother? Is it *please* possible
to keep the discussion on the main points? When you are unable to agree with
eachother you can start calling eachother names, and saying the other one
does so, you can also either try to find a solution suitable for both,
either a compromize either just accept that you disagree. These long threads
are disruptive for this list, especially as more and more emails are about
how people are, and not about the subject. I think very little people will
stay reading this, but will also not read anymore the subjects that actually
*do* have a relevant discussion as in talking about the subject. Please dont
be distructive to eachother, and respect that people can sometimes have
another opinion, and if they are not able to be persuiated, dont go on for
ever on this list, but find other methods.

Effeietsanders

2006/12/22, Bryan Tong Minh <bryan.tongminh at gmail.com>:
>
> I fully understand it isn't. The point I wanted to make, but
> formulated rather impolite was that hatred will never be solved by
> hatred. It has been shown in the past, and will be shown in the
> future. I will abstain from any further comments regarding this
> thread, as it is its nature to grow into a flamewar.
>
> Bryan
>
> On 12/22/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi Bryan,
> > It is not polite nor helpful to say that someone is "immature and
> > moreover a hypocrite". The only result is that you inflame the situation
> > even more. It is bad as it is.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> >
> > Bryan Tong Minh schreef:
> > > * Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point
> > >
> > > Let me myself add something: You're hate for anglosaxon related
> > > subjects is disconcerning. Your prejudgment prevents any constructive
> > > discussion.  You have just proven yourself to be immature and moreover
> > > a hypocrite. Please notice that your comments are in no way helpful,
> > > and prevents any further discussion.
> > >
> > > Bryan
> > >
> > > On 12/22/06, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> After Gregory's action I want to ask all wiki's who use non-latin
> > >> languages as their standard to start blocking all latin character
> user
> > >> accounts and demand they use accountnames in your script, especially
> > >> those of en.wikipedians actively supporting this en: policy.
> > >>
> > >> Maybe this way they will understand on en: that there action is
> > >> extremely biased and very very bad as they seem to insist to keep
> > >> blocking good users like admins from other wiki's simply because
> people
> > >> want to use their REAL NAME.
> > >>
> > >> Start with Gregory's account btw.
> > >>
> > >> Waerth
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Gregory Maxwell schreef:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> The en.WP Username policy has been changed.
> > >>>>>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Username&curid=168684&diff=95920637&oldid=95900078
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Unfortunatly, it was changed without any valid basis.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It is not acceptable to remove longstanding policy simply because
> some
> > >>>> people on a mailing list decided to speculate randomly and accuse
> > >>>> enwiki of "ethnocentricism" without substantiation.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As a result I've reverted the change and contributed some
> suggestions
> > >>>> to the talk page.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I agree that the policy should be *improved* to address the real
> > >>>> concerns brought up, and to be more friendly to users who work
> across
> > >>>> many languages.  Simply removing the section does not, however,
> > >>>> address the very real issues which caused the creation of the
> policy
> > >>>> in the first place.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> Hoi,
> > >>> Some people congratulated me with the outcome of this affair. My
> > >>> reaction was that it did not feel like a victory because I feel
> bruised
> > >>> by the experience. Having said this, your suggestion that there has
> been
> > >>> no substantiation about the grievance that was put forward is
> seriously
> > >>> wrong. The notion that it is up to you to revert this change
> continues
> > >>> to make this affair even more painful. Simply reverting this change
> and
> > >>> thereby denying that many of the reasons why this policy was put in
> > >>> place is seriously wrong.
> > >>>
> > >>> I have to say I am increasingly upset by this affair.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>     GerardM
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l]  About characters


list: wikitech-l

from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-12-23

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/maintenance/parserTests.txt"...
Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test Thumbnail image caption with a free URL... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887: A ISBN with a thumbnail... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887: A RFC with a thumbnail... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887: A mailto link with a thumbnail... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887: A <math> with a thumbnail- we don't render math in the parsertests by default,
so math is not stripped and turns up as escaped <math> tags.... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test Image caption containing another image... FAILED!
Running test Bug 3090: External links other than http: in image captions... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test Fuzz testing: image with bogus manual thumbnail... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Don't fall for the self-closing div... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Always escape literal '>' in output, not just after '<'... FAILED!

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Poem/poemParserTests.txt"...

   8 previously passing test(s) now FAILING! :(
      * Thumbnail image caption with a free URL
      * BUG 1887: A ISBN with a thumbnail
      * BUG 1887: A RFC with a thumbnail
      * BUG 1887: A mailto link with a thumbnail
      * BUG 1887: A <math> with a thumbnail- we don't render math in the parsertests by default,
so math is not stripped and turns up as escaped <math> tags.
      * Image caption containing another image
      * Bug 3090: External links other than http: in image captions
      * Fuzz testing: image with bogus manual thumbnail
Passed 455 of 482 tests (94.4%)... FAILED!


body:
On 22/12/06, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Vandal fighting is done by checking the edits, not by trying to pronounce
> > the name of the editor.
>
> True. But tell me that the name of the editor isn't a factor in
> deciding whether an edit is worth checking.

This, to me, seems to be the crux of the English Wikipedia policy. I
guess I am not alone in feeling that English Wikipedia vandal fighters
having to read a few extra edits to check whether they are good or
not, is better than choosing to instantaneously block all non-Latin
usernames, when considering the size of the effect on English
Wikipedia vandal fighters compared to the thousands of
non-Latin-alphabet-using Wikimedia editors who may wish to easily edit
English Wikipedia once SUL is introduced.

regards,
Brianna
user:pfctdayelise