subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Status of work and implementation on Serbian
	extension to MediaWiki

body:
Hi Milos,

What are the differences between Ekavian-Iyekavian? If they're
relatively small, like spelling differences such as between US and
World English, I think such conversion would be unnessecary and maybe
even silly.

Mark

On 25/04/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Last Friday Zhengzhu said to me that community at sr: should decide
> very fast (in one week) about implementation of his work on new
> Serbian interface which implements all standards of Serbian language.
> As it is too fast for voting on sr.wikipedia and as almost every
> Saturday at 20h (8pm) CET people from sr: have online meetings at
> #wikipedia-sr channel (Freenode network), I announced that we should
> talk about implementation of Zhengzhu's work there. Also, I saw that
> Angela is online and I called her to join us.
>
> At 20h CET there were 8 sr: contributors, Zhengzhu and Angela at the
> channel. (I'll list sr: contributor down.) Before 20h one more user
> was online, but he had problems with Internet connection because of
> rain in France, one more didn't come because he was running at
> Belgrade Marathon. One more contributor came during the talk with
> Zhengzhu. After talk with Zhengzhu two more contributors came and
> participate in decision making. I asked other 3 more very active
> contributors about their opinion after that talk and I can guess
> (according to his writing at vilage pump) opinion for the last very
> active contributor. All of that will be explained in the rest of the
> message.
>
> We were talking about one hour and half with Zhengzhu and some parts
> of his work became more clear  to us. Another hour was passed until we
> articulated questions for voting and made decisions.
>
> We had two questions: (a) To implement or not Cyrillic-Latin
> conversion at sr: and how to implement; and (b) to implement or not
> Ekavian-Iyekavian conversion at sr: and when.
>
> a) According do possible solutions, we articulated for oppinions for
> the first question:
>
> 1. Not to implement Cyrillic-Latin conversion.
>
> 2. To have mixed Cyrillic and Latin wiki source. This solution is
> implemented on Chinese Wikipedia, but it is very strange for Serbian
> speakers: only bibliography and foreign names can be mixed in one
> text.
>
> 3. To have read-write Cyrillic and read-only Latin pages.
>
> 4. To have read-write for both Cyrillics and Latin. This oppinion had
> one note: If it is not possible to implement, we should use oppinion 3
> as temporary solution, until complete 4 is possible. This solution
> also means that I can continue to talk with Zhengzhu about
> implementation.
>
> Voting result was (order is: IRC nickname, user account at sr:, oppinion):
>
> bonzo, [[sr:User:Bonzo]], 4
> djordjes, [[sr:User:Djordjes]], 4
> domatrios, [[sr:User:Domatrios]], 3
> dzivdzan, [[sr:User:Dzivdzan]], 4
> Dzordzm, [[sr:User:Dzordzm]], 4
> kaster, [[sr:User:Kaster]], 3
> Milan^Tesovic, [[sr:User:??????]], 2
> millosh, [[sr:User:?????]], 4
> Pokrajac, [[sr:User:????????]], 4
> Sasa^Stefanovic, [[sr:User:????.??????????]], 4
> VKokielov, [[sr:User:??????????]], 4
>
> Other active contributors, which I asked after the voting, said:
> [[sr:User:Ninam]], 3
> [[sr:User:????? ??????????]], 4 (he was disconnected before Zhengzhu came)
> [[sr:User:????????? ?????]], 4 (he was running on Belgrade Marathon)
>
> Other active contributors for which I can just guess what do they think:
> [[sr:User:Golija]], probably 4, maybe 3 (he was urged for introduction
> of Latin alphabet on the vilage pump at sr:)
> [[sr:User:?????]], maybe 1, maybe 3 (he doesn't like Latin, as I think)
> [[sr:User:Ivan]], I don't know
>
> This is the list of all very active users. Actualy, I think that
> contributors User:Domatrios, User:?????????? and User:Ivan are not
> "very active" according to March statistics, but they are active part
> of community at sr:.
>
> Results are:
>
> A) According to voting on IRC:
> - oppinion 1 - 0 votes
> - oppinion 2 - 1 vote
> - oppinion 3 - 2 votes
> - oppinion 4 - 8 votes
>
> B) According to all clear votes:
> - oppinion 1 - 0 votes
> - oppinion 2 - 1 vote
> - oppinion 3 - 3 votes
> - oppinion 4 - 10 votes
>
> C) According to some possible votes:
> - oppinion 1 - between 0 and 1 votes
> - oppinion 2 - 1 vote
> - oppinion 3 - between 3 and 5 votes
> - oppinion 4 - between 10 and 11 votes
>
> As oppinion 4 has clear majority, at least 10:6 against all other
> oppinions, community decided to introduce read-write Cyrillic-Latin
> conversion.
>
> b) The second question was: to implement or not Ekavian-Iyekavian
> conversion. Some people had some reserves not to implementation, but
> to the time of implementation. So, they introduced two suboppinions
> inside of oppinion for implementation. Oppinions was:
>
> 1.a - To implement Ekavian-Iyekavian conversion now.
>
> 1.b - To implement Ekavian-Iyekavian conversion after the
> implementation of Cyrillic-Latin conversion.
>
> 2. - Not to implement Ekavian-Iyekavian conversion.
>
> Voting result was (order is: IRC nickname, user account at sr:, oppinion):
>
> bonzo, [[sr:User:Bonzo]], 1.a
> djordjes, [[sr:User:Djordjes]], 1.a
> domatrios, [[sr:User:Domatrios]], 2
> Dzordzm, [[sr:User:Dzordzm]], 1.a
> kaster, [[sr:User:Kaster]], 1.b
> Milan^Tesovic, [[sr:User:??????]], 2
> millosh, [[sr:User:?????]], 1.a
> Pokrajac, [[sr:User:????????]], 1.a
> Sasa^Stefanovic, [[sr:User:????.??????????]], 1.a
> VKokielov, [[sr:User:??????????]], 1.b
>
> Before we articulated question, User:Dzivdzan left the room. As she
> said that she is for implementation before she left, but, also, she
> had some reserves to that implementation, her voice is assumed as 1.b
> (dzivdzan, [[sr:User:Dzivdzan]], 1.b)
>
> Other active contributors, which I asked after the voting, said:
> [[sr:User:Ninam]], 1.a
> [[sr:User:????? ??????????]], 1.a (he was disconnected before Zhengzhu came)
> [[sr:User:????????? ?????]], 1.a (he was running on Belgrade Marathon)
>
> Other active contributors for which I can just guess what do they think:
> [[sr:User:Golija]], I don't know
> [[sr:User:?????]], I don't know
> [[sr:User:Ivan]], I don't know
>
> Results are:
>
> A) According to voting on IRC:
> - oppinion 1.a - 6 votes
> - oppinion 1.b - 3 votes
> - oppinion 2 -  2 votes
>
> B) According to all clear votes:
> - oppinion 1.a - 9 votes
> - oppinion 1.b - 3 votes
> - oppinion 2 - 2 votes
>
> As oppinion 1.a has absolute majority, at least 6:5 against all other
> oppinions, we will continue with implementation of Ekavian-Iyekavian
> conversion together with implementation of Cyrillic-Latin conversion.
>
> IRC logs can be found at:
>
> The first three parts in Serbian: (1)
> http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%98%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B5/2005_04_23_1
> (2)
> http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%98%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B5/2005_04_23_2
> and (3) http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%98%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B5/2005_04_23_3
>
> The fourth part is in English, after we called Angela to see results:
> http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%98%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B5/2005_04_23_4
>
> Next steps
>
> Today Zhengzhu and me were talking about implementation. He said that
> it is not so easy to implement our solution (because it has some
> differences with Chinese implementation) and that we should wait until
> June. Also, Zhengzhu and me agreed that I (and probably
> sr:User:Kaster) can continue with implementation of Serbian interface
> in MediaWiki. At least for the first time, Zhengzhu will check our
> code before it's implementation into CVS tree.
>
> (And spell checker on Gmail doesn't work now :) )
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Stacey Greenstein

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Once an article has been titles,
	can thentitle be changed?

body:
Yes, just clickk on the "move" tab and give it the corrt article title.

[[User:UtherSRG]]

On 4/25/05, Michael P. Hopcroft <michael at mphpress.com> wrote:
>
> I need a title change on one of my articles to correct a spelling error.
> Who so I ask?
>
> Michael Hopcroft
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: The Onion on Peer Review

body:
Chad Perrin wrote:
>
> Err . . . The Onion is satire.  It doesn't seriously purport to be a
> "news source" in the normal sense.  Its stories are intended to be taken
> as satirical treatments of the news, and as far as I'm aware none of its
> stories have ever been true.

OK, thanks for clearing that up. I guess I quite embarrassed myself
here. Will I ever be able to post here again without being ridiculed for
not knowing about The World-Famous Onion?


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Conference report from South Africa

body:
Andy Rabagliati wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Timwi wrote:
>
>>Heh! All the more incentive to get more people to participate in
>>[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia]] (shameless plug)! Nobody
>>really wants machine-generated spoken versions when a real human-spoken
>>version is available. :)
>
> There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
>
> * Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like CamelCase :-)

Of course, you cannot edit a sound file in the same way that you can
edit text. But you're not supposed to, anyway; the sound file is not an
original article, but a reading of an existing textual version. My hope
is that once most featured articles have a recording, the regular
participants in the Spoken Wikipedia project will be happy to update
their own sound files as the article changes significantly. If someone
doesn't, well, then I guess someone else will have to re-read the entire
article, but if someone's happy to do that (which isn't unlikely if the
recording is significantly out of date) then there's no problem with that.

> * Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
>   someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)

I'm not sure how large and how representative a sample of listeners you
have already surveyed, but I highly doubt this is a real problem. The
recordings are obviously supposed to be spoken slowly and clearly.

Are you a native speaker of English? Where are you from? What accents do
you tend to have trouble understanding?

Timwi


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Thomas Gries

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test wiki (e-mail address confirmation)

body:
 >Brian wrote
 >I've cleaned it up a bit to separate the email confirmation token from
the login password, as well as some general code cleanup backing
that.The user >table has changed a bit, so those of you tracking CVS
HEAD be  sure to run update.php.

Brion:
In SpecialPreferences.php of CVS HEAD, all these 11 lines need to
***deleted*** now, please, This solves the feature, the users are
complaining about.
Tom

(about line 269 seq. in SpecialPreferences CVS HEAD)

if ($wgEmailAuthentication) {
                        # mail the econfirm-token to the dirty address
                        # on "save options", this user will be
logged-out automatically
                        $error = LoginForm::mailPasswordInternal(
$wgUser, true, $dummy );
                        if ($error === '') {
                            return LoginForm::mainLoginForm( wfMsg(
'confirmationmailsent', $wgUser->getName() ) );
                        } else {
                            return LoginForm::mainLoginForm( wfMsg(
'mailerror', $error ) );
                        }
                        # if user returns, that new email address gets
confirmed in checkpassword()
                    }


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: OTRS problem

body:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 08:52:55PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
>
>
> Jens Frank a ?crit:
> >On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Jens Frank wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 06:17:46AM -0400, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> >>
> >>>The board queue is overwhelmed with SPAM.  Would it be possible to
> >>>route mail to the otrs board queue through spamassassin first, with the
> >>>parameters set fairly aggressively?
> >>>
> >>>The ideal solution might involve an autoresponder as well.  If Spam
> >>>assassin thinks something to that queue is spam, we autorespond to warn
> >>>the person that we've discarded it and please try again (perhaps by
> >>>sending it directly to me with wikipedia in the subject line for
> >>>example).
> >>
> >>We have a spam filter already, I'll tune it to catch those messages.
> >>
> >
> >
> >I checked some queues and found that spam is moved manually to the
> >"Probably Spam" queue. Please don't.
> >
> >Incoming mail is run through spamassassin. If it is considered spam,
> >it is tagged as "----SPAM----" in the subject. It is still forwarded
> >to OTRS. There, a job runs every 5 minutes and moves mail marked as
> >----SPAM---- to the "Probably Spam" queue. You don't need to handle
> >these mails, just ignore them.
> >
> >Spam that is not caught by spamassassin should be moved to the "Junk"
> >queue. I frequently check that queue and train spamassassin's bayesian
> >filter using the mails in there.
> >
> >Mail in the "Probably Spam" and "Junk" queues gets deleted after 1 week.
> >
> >In the last week, 230 Mails were automatically marked as "Spam", 30 were
> >sent to "Junk".
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >	jens
>
>
>
> Goodness... we just did not know. Quite naturally, we put spam... in the
> "spam" box... seemed errrr, the right thing to do ;-)
>
> Thanks for training us jens... it was getting terrifying to get there...
>

Thanks to the holidays that I have at the moment I managed to finally get
this right: Spam is no longer moved to the original queue and moved by
an agent. It is directly sent to the spam-queues, so no more "new ticket"
notifications are sent for spam!

	Regards,

		JeLuF


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] It is a sign.

body:
John Bradley wrote:

>Of you lack of social abilities and generally anti-social nature that as soon
>as anything effects you composure you start barring people. In effect this
>shows your overall lack of maturity and you high levels of insecurity.
>
>
>
It shows something of _your_ social skills, maturity and level of
insecurity when you make personal attacks because you were reprimanded
*for breaking the rules*. Please stop this - the mailing list archive is
full enough as it is.

>If you actually had the scoial abilities you think I lack you would have coped
>in who different way, but then you lot are basically Eight year old little
>madams and school prefects, and like you did long ago. You think you
>particular form of childishness is actually very grown up.
>
>
Maybe you'd better use that spell checker you keep threatening the
mailing list with ;)

>		Yours
>
>		John Bradley
>[snip]
>
>
>
Is it really such a good idea to keep plastering your address all over
the internet? Now stop spamming and get back to whatever it is you do.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


body:
Andy Rabagliati wrote:

>There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
>
>* Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like CamelCase :-)
>
>* Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
>  someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)
>
>Transcription, and machine-generated, please ?
>
>
Which Apple voice would you like? Or would you prefer Microsoft Bob? :P

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Anthere wrote:

> But in the afternoon... a beer, or even a little pcb is nice...

:-) !

> [..]
> note...pcb stands for picon citron bi?re...

Oh, :-(.

Actually PCB is a very versatile little TLA -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCB

Pete/Pcb21


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Sean Barrett a ?crit:
>>I am quite confident that he will explain it to me one day, perhaps in
>>France in front of a beer this summer. I am preparing the grass (mostly
>>weeds actually) and the flowers (these are neat) and the outside
>>wood-table (this one is perfect now) so that the environnement is good
>>for talking of such things.
>
>
> I have no trouble imagining the scene except for one jarring detail --
> beer?!?  A conversation over a wooden table in a French pastoral
> setting may include vin ordinaire, sure; un petit caf?, certainly; but
> beer is all wrong for that mise en sc?ne.
>
> Please correct this detail in your final draft.

depends of the hour...

during lunch, that would be rose wine
After lunch, caf?
during dinner, when it is already dark, red wine

Before lunch or dinner, in summer, I would rather choose a pastis
with a bit of sirop d'orgeat. And ice.
Right, I lived in Marseille ;-)

But in the afternoon... a beer, or even a little pcb is nice...

After dinner, strong alcoohol, but usually, by then... I am cooked.

note...pcb stands for picon citron bi?re...
picon is a traditional mixture of plants. When there is only regular
beer left in the fridge, that is a good solution...


from_name: zhengzhu

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Status of work and implementation on Serbian
	extension to MediaWiki

body:
On 4/25/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Last Friday Zhengzhu said to me that community at sr: should decide
> very fast (in one week) about implementation of his work on new
> Serbian interface which implements all standards of Serbian language.

I should add that this was prompted by Brion's plan on releasing 1.5.

--
zhengzhu


from_name: Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordon

subject: [Wikitech-l] [patch] Anonymous edit warning

body:
My users keep accidentally editing anonymously when they think they're
logged in; this has gotten so bad that a few of them have asked me to
disable anonymous edits.  Instead, I wrote the patch below my sig, set
$wgEnableAnonWarning to true, and put the following in
MediaWiki:AnonWarning:

You are currently editing anonymously.  Would
you like to log in before editing?

It was quite effective.  ;^)

Below patch is against MediaWiki 1.3.11 (the latest version marked
stable in Gentoo Linux's Portage).  I'm not much of a PHP guy, so it's
likely suboptimal, but it might be useful.

--
Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordon <brent at brentdax.com>
Perl and Parrot hacker

"I used to have a life, but I liked mail-reading so much better."

--- EditPage.php.orig	2005-04-25 21:44:51.000000000 -0700
+++ EditPage.php	2005-04-25 23:21:08.000000000 -0700
@@ -133,6 +133,7 @@
 		global $wgLang, $wgParser, $wgTitle;
 		global $wgAllowAnonymousMinor;
 		global $wgWhitelistEdit;
+		global $wgEnableAnonWarning;
 		global $wgSpamRegex, $wgFilterCallback;

 		$fname = 'EditPage::editForm';
@@ -379,6 +380,11 @@
 			" accesskey='".wfMsg('accesskey-minoredit')."' id='wpMinoredit' />".
 			"{$minor}";
 		}
+
+		if( !$wgUser->getID() && $wgEnableAnonWarning) {
+			$sk=$wgUser->getSkin();
+			$wgOut->addHTML(wfMsg("anonWarning",
$sk->makeSpecialUrl('Userlogin', 'returnto=' .
$wgTitle->getPrefixedUrl() )));
+		}

 		$watchhtml = "";


subject: [WikiEN-l] It is a sign.

body:
John Bradley wrote:

>What personal attacks have I made because I have been repremanded?
>My disgust strtches far further back than that.
>
>
>
When did it start and why?

>It also yet again seems that I what I have done is a personall attack then so
>is everyones critisms of me. another example of 1 rule for the arbcommas.
>
>
>
I'm not on the Arbcom, but calling people "stupid immature idiots" won't
help your case. Talking about "invalid, illogical, unreferenced, biased
claims" in articles might - attack the idea, never the person.

>My request for a page to be deleted was not spam, that several people
>have decided to use it as an opportunity to rake over the coals is not my
>problem.
>
>
>
What a person has in their user space is their concern unless it breaks
policy (eg. is defamatory, illegal). Many people have pages like this as
watchlists.

Don't forget the disclaimer that you submitted all entries to Wikipedia
under - All contributions to Wikipedia are released under the GNU Free
Documentation License. The history of the mistakes you have made in the
past cannot be erased, but that doesn't mean you have to make them in
the future. Be polite, discuss things, never revert without talking
about what you are doing and why.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] Who owns the HTML output for MediaWiki?

body:
We mostly make it up as we go along, if you have suggestions on
improving the output, feel free to make them here or at the bugzilla.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] (no subject)

body:
P. Steemans wrote:
> Hello dear all,
> In the preferences, the function who allows the user to change by
> himself his login doesn't work. Have you a solution to solve this problem?
> Thenk you in advance

I'm afraid you're going to have to give some more details about the
problem. To help effectively, we need:

* To know what version of MediaWiki you're running on, on what platform,
on what version of PHP/MySQL, and how you've configured it.
* A specific description of the problem.
* Detailed steps to reproduce the problem, from the very beginning up to
the end.
* A detailed description of what was expected to happen when following
these steps.
* A detailed description of what actually happens when following these
steps and how it differs from the expected behavior.

If your site is accessible from the internet, posting a URL so we can
look and confirm the problem also may help.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] It is a sign.

body:
John Bradley wrote:

>Perhaps you can explain why I am required to act in this way but not the
>likes of Violet Riga, Matt Crypto or lots of other people.
>
>
>
They are too. Do you have examples of when they have done this?

>My annoyance started when Violet Riga got me blocked on a totally
>spurious request and has both not been punished and has nor apologized.
>It is referenced earlier on, in the thread.
>
>
>
Which one?

>I am quiet happy to have all my stuff up there provided other peoples is
>subject to the same conditions, but that does not seem to be the case.
>
>
>
I'd like to see some of these violations.

>For instance I am chastised for not replying to people were as David
>Gerrard and most of the members of the arbcomm feel that they do not
>have to reply.
>
>
>
Sorry, can't answer that without a reference.

>Or for instance why Pcpcpc would use a sock puppet to perform edits of
>extremely dubious quality and then not explain why he acted the way he
>did.
>
>
>
Unfortunately tracking sockpuppets is quite difficult. Can you provide a
diff?

>As for spam, the address is on several WWW sites as a contact so it is
>virtually impossible to make it worse and Spamihilator seems up to the job.
>I've also had this email for about 15 years now, which also means it is well
>known.
>
>
>
My concern about your address is about your *residential* address.

>You'll find I have used a spell checker but there is no guarantee that word
>correctly spelt is the right word.
>
>
>
Spell checkers are notoriously innaccurate. They also can't check grammar.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/includes Parser.php, 1.424,
	1.425

body:
On 25/04/05, Tim Starling <timstarling at users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> Modified Files:
>         Parser.php
> Log Message:
> Cleared $wgLinkHolders after they are used. This fixes bug 1770 and probably improves performance too.

This change has the unfortunate side-effect that one can no longer
replace the link holders from just one part of the page, as this will
cause all the link targets to be effectively thrown away (with some
rather amusing effects).

The only place I know that does this is the hack to make links within
image captions not disappear. This is very hacky at the moment anyway,
as it uses the $wgParser global from Linker.php, but I'm just about
done rewriting that code such that that part (i.e. the parsing part)
will be in Parser.php anyway.

Would it be ugly to add a parameter to switch off this clearing out,
so that that approach could still be used?

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> (For all the talk of Wikipedia being "the encyclopedia Slashdot built,"
> I'm suspecting we have far less computer people than we do arts people
> editing. Or more would idly turn their hand to MediaWiki. I'm learning PHP
> specifically so I can do evil things to the software, first for myself then
> for all you lovely people.)

Judging from the level of technical insight in the average
Slashdot comment and the performance of the Wikipedia website
during 2002 and 2003, it would be fair to assume that both the
Slashdot crowd and the Mediawiki developers consist of art
students who have yet to learn some programming.

Fortunately, the sluggish Wikipedia performance can and has been
compensated by adding hardware.  I wish the same was true for the
quality of Slashdot postings.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


body:
On 26/04/05, Stacey Greenstein <stacey.nj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, just clickk on the "move" tab and give it the corrt article title.

Note that you have to be logged in to see and use this link, but
creating an account really is painless.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Delirium

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] The Economist speaks approvingly of Wikipedia in
	passing

body:
Something people might find interesting,

This week's (April 23) _Economist_ has a brief half paragraph on
Wikipedia, mentioning it in passing as part of a discussion of the rise
of non-traditional media online ("Yesterday's papers", pg. 59).  It's
perhaps most notable in the way it takes "Wikipedia works" as plain
fact: a perhaps surprising but still well-established enough fact to be
just mentioned in passing as evidence for an argument.

"Blogs, moreover, are but one item on a growing list of new media tools
that the internet makes available.  Wikis are collaborative web pages
that allow readers to edit and contribute.  This, to digital immigrants,
may sound like a recipe for anarchic chaos, until they visit, for
instance, wikipedia.org, an online encyclopaedia that is growing
dramatically richer by the day through exactly this spontaneous (and
surprisingly orderly) collaboration among strangers."

-Mark


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test wiki

body:
Phil Boswell wrote:
> * The "You have new messages" banner when my talk page is changed does not
> go away when I read my talk page. Neither does it go away when I edit my
> talk page. It seems to go away only when I click the "Reset all notification
> flags" button on my watchlist: this is *not* expected behaviour.

It seems to work fine for me. Can you narrow it down to a reproducable
set of actions which triggers the problem?

> While on the subject, there's no chance the formatting of the
> watchlist/recentchanges could be cleaned up is there? When a long entry
> wraps, the result is really ugly, and the flags get lost in the noise. I
> know there are some people out there who react to HTML tables like a vampire
> to garlic, but these pages really let the project down when they look so
> messy.

We already have two different modes (normal and 'enhanced'). Are you
complaining about only one of them, or both?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: testwiki cvs head: logged-in user name not shown
	any longer in the upper right corner,  "My page"  is shown instead

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> Note that the potential efficiency gains from Special:Mypage and co.
> have not actually been implemented, 1.5 still sends anti-squid headers
> if you have a session cookie. The problem of preference-dependent HTML
> in the content area has also not been addressed, so there's quite a lot
> of work to do before these navigation link changes will be useful. A
> temporary revert is probably in order.

I'd agree with this. It was a fairly experimental change and accepted on
that basis, so put it back for now.

Do still keep the Special:Mypage & co around, though, as they may be
handy links; the important part is just showing the username to indicate
clearly a) that you're logged in and b) under which account.

We might also want to implement the suggestion of a 'you're editing
anonymously' warning line on the edit page.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Stephen Forrest

subject: [Wikipedia-l] A place for audio recordings of books/texts?

body:
Hello all,

Spurred by some brief experiments with recording pronunciations on
Commons, I am interested (at least conceptually) in making free audio
recordings (licence GFDL, format .ogg) of various important historical
texts or literary works which are now free (public domain or
otherwise).

I suspect there is appetite among volunteers for such a project, and
so I'm wondering whether there is a place for such things in the
Wikimedia world.  (I wouldn't be surprised if this had been discussed
before, though I can't find a reference to it.)

Some natural choices are:

Wikisource:
Pro: Focus is on free-content versions of important historical texts
or literary works.
Con: Mandate seems to be only for text, and there is apparently a 5 MB
limit per file.

Wikibooks:
Pro: No prohibition against sound files (that I can see).
Con: Seems to be intended for collaborative original creations, not
uploaded recordings of a fixed work.  And there is apparently a 5 MB
limit per file.

Commons:
Pro: Many sound files, and file size limit is larger (20 MB).
Con: Unsure if it's appropriate for this.  Commons is intended for
shared media resources across Wikimedia projects, and I can't see how
(for example) the Catalan Wiktionary would need an audio version of
Chapter 7 of Wuthering Heights.  Existing sound files on the Commons
are all quite short.

Right now I'm leaning towards using the Commons.  Any comments about
this, either about the Commons as a proposed place, or about the idea
in general?

Lastly, would anyone happen to know of any existing archives of free
(as in free-libre) audio recordings available online?

Regards,

Steve


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Quarto and local chapters

body:
Hello

I think it would be great if the german chapter could possibly inform us of their last activities in the past trimester, so that something can be written on Quarto about it.

Similarly, could the french chapter complete the current article, so as to include the last elections.

The way is here : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WQ/3/En

Another additional question : I am confused about which list is the german association one ? Last time I sent a mail to the list I thought was, it was rejected.
Could a wikimedia-de at wikimedia.org redirection be set up so that list keep similar naming conventions ?

Thanks

Ant

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list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: Quarto and local chapters

body:
Cooooorrection, wikimediade-l at wikimedia.org

Testing it in case...

Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 03:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Quarto and local chapters
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>,
wikimedia-fr at wikimedia.org

Hello

I think it would be great if the german chapter could possibly inform us of their last activities in the past trimester, so that something can be written on Quarto about it.

Similarly, could the french chapter complete the current article, so as to include the last elections.

The way is here : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WQ/3/En

Another additional question : I am confused about which list is the german association one ? Last time I sent a mail to the list I thought was, it was rejected.
Could a wikimedia-de at wikimedia.org redirection be set up so that list keep similar naming conventions ?

Thanks

Ant

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subject: [Foundation-l] board elections

body:
Hi,

Simple and straigthforward message...

We need to have new elections for the board of directors soon.

Which implies at the same time very probably some technical set up as well as election administrators to organise it. In the same way than last year, we would need a couple of volunteers who are not running for election to serve as election administrators. Translations work will also be needed.

Please volunteer!

Elections details are not fixed yet, but I guess we need to start make things move :-)
Jimbo will keep you informed on the matter in a little while and will very likely handle most of its organisation as a neutral party.

Ant

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subject: [Foundation-l] board elections


from_name: Chad Perrin

body:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 09:28:52PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Chad Perrin wrote:
> >
> > Err . . . The Onion is satire.  It doesn't seriously purport to be a
> > "news source" in the normal sense.  Its stories are intended to be taken
> > as satirical treatments of the news, and as far as I'm aware none of its
> > stories have ever been true.
>
> OK, thanks for clearing that up. I guess I quite embarrassed myself
> here. Will I ever be able to post here again without being ridiculed for
> not knowing about The World-Famous Onion?
>

Well, I don't intend to ridicule you.  As for others, I suspect they'll
make their own decisions on an individual basis.  Heh.

Mistakes happen.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.5 release schedule

body:
MaPhi Werner wrote:
> So, out of naivity: how does the process work concerning the
> incorporation of enhancement patches?

Enhancement patches may or may not get integrated, depending on time,
interest, code cleanliness, bugginess, etc.

> I continued my work on read-access controlled pages (see
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-March/028105.html
> for my first approach). The second version abandoned the idea of hiding
> individual pages and deals with namespaces instead.

Read access restrictions are a really, really low priority. I personally
have no interest in seeing such a feature in MediaWiki, though others
might take a crack at your patch.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Milos Rancic

body:
Last Friday Zhengzhu said to me that community at sr: should decide
very fast (in one week) about implementation of his work on new
Serbian interface which implements all standards of Serbian language.
As it is too fast for voting on sr.wikipedia and as almost every
Saturday at 20h (8pm) CET people from sr: have online meetings at
#wikipedia-sr channel (Freenode network), I announced that we should
talk about implementation of Zhengzhu's work there. Also, I saw that
Angela is online and I called her to join us.

At 20h CET there were 8 sr: contributors, Zhengzhu and Angela at the
channel. (I'll list sr: contributor down.) Before 20h one more user
was online, but he had problems with Internet connection because of
rain in France, one more didn't come because he was running at
Belgrade Marathon. One more contributor came during the talk with
Zhengzhu. After talk with Zhengzhu two more contributors came and
participate in decision making. I asked other 3 more very active
contributors about their opinion after that talk and I can guess
(according to his writing at vilage pump) opinion for the last very
active contributor. All of that will be explained in the rest of the
message.

We were talking about one hour and half with Zhengzhu and some parts
of his work became more clear  to us. Another hour was passed until we
articulated questions for voting and made decisions.

We had two questions: (a) To implement or not Cyrillic-Latin
conversion at sr: and how to implement; and (b) to implement or not
Ekavian-Iyekavian conversion at sr: and when.

a) According do possible solutions, we articulated for oppinions for
the first question:

1. Not to implement Cyrillic-Latin conversion.

2. To have mixed Cyrillic and Latin wiki source. This solution is
implemented on Chinese Wikipedia, but it is very strange for Serbian
speakers: only bibliography and foreign names can be mixed in one
text.

3. To have read-write Cyrillic and read-only Latin pages.

4. To have read-write for both Cyrillics and Latin. This oppinion had
one note: If it is not possible to implement, we should use oppinion 3
as temporary solution, until complete 4 is possible. This solution
also means that I can continue to talk with Zhengzhu about
implementation.

Voting result was (order is: IRC nickname, user account at sr:, oppinion):

bonzo, [[sr:User:Bonzo]], 4
djordjes, [[sr:User:Djordjes]], 4
domatrios, [[sr:User:Domatrios]], 3
dzivdzan, [[sr:User:Dzivdzan]], 4
Dzordzm, [[sr:User:Dzordzm]], 4
kaster, [[sr:User:Kaster]], 3
Milan^Tesovic, [[sr:User:??????]], 2
millosh, [[sr:User:?????]], 4
Pokrajac, [[sr:User:????????]], 4
Sasa^Stefanovic, [[sr:User:????.??????????]], 4
VKokielov, [[sr:User:??????????]], 4

Other active contributors, which I asked after the voting, said:
[[sr:User:Ninam]], 3
[[sr:User:????? ??????????]], 4 (he was disconnected before Zhengzhu came)
[[sr:User:????????? ?????]], 4 (he was running on Belgrade Marathon)

Other active contributors for which I can just guess what do they think:
[[sr:User:Golija]], probably 4, maybe 3 (he was urged for introduction
of Latin alphabet on the vilage pump at sr:)
[[sr:User:?????]], maybe 1, maybe 3 (he doesn't like Latin, as I think)
[[sr:User:Ivan]], I don't know

This is the list of all very active users. Actualy, I think that
contributors User:Domatrios, User:?????????? and User:Ivan are not
"very active" according to March statistics, but they are active part
of community at sr:.

Results are:

A) According to voting on IRC:
- oppinion 1 - 0 votes
- oppinion 2 - 1 vote
- oppinion 3 - 2 votes
- oppinion 4 - 8 votes

B) According to all clear votes:
- oppinion 1 - 0 votes
- oppinion 2 - 1 vote
- oppinion 3 - 3 votes
- oppinion 4 - 10 votes

C) According to some possible votes:
- oppinion 1 - between 0 and 1 votes
- oppinion 2 - 1 vote
- oppinion 3 - between 3 and 5 votes
- oppinion 4 - between 10 and 11 votes

As oppinion 4 has clear majority, at least 10:6 against all other
oppinions, community decided to introduce read-write Cyrillic-Latin
conversion.

b) The second question was: to implement or not Ekavian-Iyekavian
conversion. Some people had some reserves not to implementation, but
to the time of implementation. So, they introduced two suboppinions
inside of oppinion for implementation. Oppinions was:

1.a - To implement Ekavian-Iyekavian conversion now.

1.b - To implement Ekavian-Iyekavian conversion after the
implementation of Cyrillic-Latin conversion.

2. - Not to implement Ekavian-Iyekavian conversion.

Voting result was (order is: IRC nickname, user account at sr:, oppinion):

bonzo, [[sr:User:Bonzo]], 1.a
djordjes, [[sr:User:Djordjes]], 1.a
domatrios, [[sr:User:Domatrios]], 2
Dzordzm, [[sr:User:Dzordzm]], 1.a
kaster, [[sr:User:Kaster]], 1.b
Milan^Tesovic, [[sr:User:??????]], 2
millosh, [[sr:User:?????]], 1.a
Pokrajac, [[sr:User:????????]], 1.a
Sasa^Stefanovic, [[sr:User:????.??????????]], 1.a
VKokielov, [[sr:User:??????????]], 1.b

Before we articulated question, User:Dzivdzan left the room. As she
said that she is for implementation before she left, but, also, she
had some reserves to that implementation, her voice is assumed as 1.b
(dzivdzan, [[sr:User:Dzivdzan]], 1.b)

Other active contributors, which I asked after the voting, said:
[[sr:User:Ninam]], 1.a
[[sr:User:????? ??????????]], 1.a (he was disconnected before Zhengzhu came)
[[sr:User:????????? ?????]], 1.a (he was running on Belgrade Marathon)

Other active contributors for which I can just guess what do they think:
[[sr:User:Golija]], I don't know
[[sr:User:?????]], I don't know
[[sr:User:Ivan]], I don't know

Results are:

A) According to voting on IRC:
- oppinion 1.a - 6 votes
- oppinion 1.b - 3 votes
- oppinion 2 -  2 votes

B) According to all clear votes:
- oppinion 1.a - 9 votes
- oppinion 1.b - 3 votes
- oppinion 2 - 2 votes

As oppinion 1.a has absolute majority, at least 6:5 against all other
oppinions, we will continue with implementation of Ekavian-Iyekavian
conversion together with implementation of Cyrillic-Latin conversion.

IRC logs can be found at:

The first three parts in Serbian: (1)
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%98%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B5/2005_04_23_1
(2)
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%98%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B5/2005_04_23_2
and (3) http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%98%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B5/2005_04_23_3

The fourth part is in English, after we called Angela to see results:
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%98%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B5/2005_04_23_4

Next steps

Today Zhengzhu and me were talking about implementation. He said that
it is not so easy to implement our solution (because it has some
differences with Chinese implementation) and that we should wait until
June. Also, Zhengzhu and me agreed that I (and probably
sr:User:Kaster) can continue with implementation of Serbian interface
in MediaWiki. At least for the first time, Zhengzhu will check our
code before it's implementation into CVS tree.

(And spell checker on Gmail doesn't work now :) )


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Status of work and implementation on Serbian extension
	to MediaWiki


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Let's drop it (was: It is a sign)

body:
> > >Of your lack of social abilities and generally anti-social
> nature that
> > >as soon
> > >as anything affects your composure you start barring
> people. In effect this
> > >shows your overall lack of maturity and your high levels of
> insecurity.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > It shows something of _your_ social skills, maturity and level of
> > insecurity [snip]

Why don't we all agree to refrain from ANY mention of other
contributors' social skills or (alleged) lack thereof?

I'm willing to follow this rule. How about everyone else?

Uncle Ed


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Hello Jonathan,

I'm not aware of any systematic effort to move CSS styles out of the
HTML output and to add identifiers to all elements. However, I'm sure
Novell has the resources to get this done -- I would recommend that you
start by submitting some patches through

	http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

and, if the code is clean, we can give you or other developers from your
team CVS access to work on the codebase.

All best,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: OTRS problem

body:
Jens Frank a ?crit:

> Thanks to the holidays that I have at the moment I managed to finally get
> this right: Spam is no longer moved to the original queue and moved by
> an agent. It is directly sent to the spam-queues, so no more "new ticket"
> notifications are sent for spam!
>
> 	Regards,
>
> 		JeLuF

thanks :-)

ant


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> However, your case underscores my standing argument that Wikisource and
> Wikimedia Commons should be merged, since they both serve very similar
> purposes (repositories of free content), and transformations like yours
> would be natural in a single repository.

Exactly. Commons should be the resource for all shared media. Text is a major
form of media.

-- mav

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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Status of work and implementation on Serbian
	extension to MediaWiki

body:
On 4/26/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Milos,
>
> What are the differences between Ekavian-Iyekavian? If they're
> relatively small, like spelling differences such as between US and
> World English, I think such conversion would be unnessecary and maybe
> even silly.

Let me try again... :)

1. You can write a lot of text in any standard English without
knowledge what is this English; almost always you would know is text
in Ekavian or Iyekavian during the first sentence.

2. Official Orthography of Serbian Language (Pravopis srpskoga jezika)
is written in two variants: Ekavian and Iyekavian.

3. Official language in Serbia is only Serbian. But, according to
Montenegro's constitution, official language is Serbian Iyekavian. I
think the same situation is in Republic of Srpska.

4. Around 20.000 lexemes was affected by this process (with around
150.000 word forms; Serbian language has inflection).

5. From the primary school to the university, people from different
parts of Serbian language area learn different standards. There are
much more Ekavians then Iyekavians (if we are talking only about
Serbian language area: more then 8 millions of Ekavians and less then
2 millions of Iyekavians). Serbian Wikipedia is dominant Ekavian, but
we should try to give articles in minority standard, too.

6. Let imagine such situation:

We have six persons. The first is from Belgrade (Serbia, speaks
Serbian Ekavian), the second is from Podgorica (Montenegro, speaks
Serbian Iyekavian), the third is from Banja Luka (Republic of Srpska,
Bosnia and Herzegovina, speaks Serbian Iyekavian), fourth is from
Zagreb (Croatia, speaks Croatian, which is also Iyekavian), fifth is
from Mostar (Bosnia and Herzegovina, speaks Croatian, which is also
Iyekavian) and the sixth is from Sarajevo (Bosnia and Herzegovina,
speaks Bosnian, which is also Iyekavian).

Persons from Zagreb (cro-iyekav), Belgrade (ser-ekav) and Podgorica
(ser-iyekav) would have some (but, very very  little) problems to
understand some words which is spoken by person from Sarajevo
(bos-iyekav) because those words have Turkish origin. Persons from
Belgrade and Podgorica would have less problems then person from
Zagreb because there are some Turkish words which is used in speech in
Serbia. But, all of that problems are very very small. Persons from
Mostar (cro-iyekav) and Banja Luka (ser-iyekav) would not have any
problem to understand person from Sarajevo.

Persons from Sarajevo, Belgrade, Banja Luka and Podgorica would have
some problems to understand person from Zagreb (for example, Croatian
language has Slavic names of months, Serbian and Bosnian have Latin
names of months).

But, if any of Iyekavians send mail in Latin alphabet to the person
from Belgrade about usual things (how they feel, about weather, etc.),
person from Belgrade would have a lot of problems to recognize who was
that person by origin/location. Maybe person from Banja Luka listen
Croatian radio or television, maybe person from Podgorica does the
same... Maybe person from Mostar listen Serbian or Bosnian radio or
television, maybe person from Zagreb, too.

However, they can understand each other a lot better then they
understand Slovenians or Macedonians or Bulgarians. I think that you
have more problems to understand my English then we have to understand
each other :)

7. As I said before, if you think only in formal way, Serbian,
Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedia should be only one. And people from
those Wikipedias should not care if the article is in Serbian,
Croatian or Bosnian variant.

But, there are "some problems in communication" between Serbs, Croats
and Bosniaks and we can't have one Wikipedia. Also, there are some
cultural differences. And inside of Serbian speaking people, there are
some cultural differences, too. As a person who speaks majority
variant I have to think about minority and their needs.

P. S. I am just waiting the time when people from Montenegro would ask
for their own Wikipedia ;)


from_name: Bjarte Sørensen

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Language policy agreement in the Norwegian Wikipedia
	community

body:
Dear all,

Most of you would be aware of some of the discussions that have occurred
around Wikipedia in the Norwegian languages. Since the last round of
discussions on this list, there has been a lot of internal debate, as
well as what seems to be a fairly widely accepted agreement following
voting.

This e-mail intends to, after a brief recap on Norwegian language and
wikipedia issues, take those interested through the latest development
and will stake out the road ahead. It is also intended to inform the
international community about the current agreement on no.wikipedia, so
as to prevent misunderstandings in the future.

Finally, we will mention an unfortunate reaction to the vote by a small
number of users at the Norwegian Bokm?l/Riksm?l (no:) wikipedia who want
to disregard the result of the voting and are planning to create a
_third_ Norwegian wikipedia with the sole mission of mixing the contents
of the two current Norwegian versions.

== A short language history of Norway ==

Spoken Norwegian ("norsk") (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "no") is in a fairly
unique situation compared to most other languages of the world in that
it has two widely accepted written standards, Bokm?l (ISO 639-2 alpha-2
code "nb") and Nynorsk (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "nn"). By national
legislation they are both regarded as official written forms of
Norwegian. In addition, many people still make a distinction between
Bokm?l and its precursor which still is in use, Riksm?l.

Briefly speaking, Bokm?l and Riksm?l are descendants of the Danish
written language. Until the 1800s, Danish was the only widely used
written language in Norway as a result of four centuries of union with
Denmark. With increasing independence came a wish to norwegianise the
Danish standard, with Knud Knudsen at the forefront for changing parts
of the vocabulary and orthographics. Thus, Riksm?l, and later Bokm?l,
resulted. These forms together are today probably used by about 90% of
Norway's population, or somewhere around 3,500,000 people.

Parallel to this development, a new written standard was created by Ivar
Aasen. He travelled extensively throughout Norway, and based his new
language, landsm?l, on the grammar and vocabulary of dialect samples
from around the country. This was later renamed Nynorsk. Modern Nynorsk
differs significantly from modern Bokm?l, and may be linguistically
looked upon as as different (or as similar if you like) as Swedish is to
Danish. For English or Dutch/German speakers, the differences may be
likened to those between (Lowland) Scots and English or Low German and
Dutch. Today it is estimated that about 500,000-600,000 people have
Nynorsk as their first written language.

More information about the Norwegian language history can be found in
English, German, French, Spanish or Portuguese on the website of the
Norwegian Language Council:
http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=653

== A short history of Wikipedia in Norwegian ==

The first Norwegian wikipedia started 26 November 2001 on the subdomain
no.wikipedia.org. As most wikipedias, its contributor and article count
started really picking up around the end of 2003. At the time, it
accepted all written standards of Norwegian, although the amount of
Nynorsk was minimal. There were already several debates about the
feasibilty and appropriateness of keeping the two languages united on
one Wikipedia. On 31 July 2004 a Wikipedia for Nynorsk was created.

The creation of nn:, however, split the community at no: wikipedia. Many
felt that given that Nynorsk now had its own wikipedia, no: should
become a Bokm?l/Riksm?l Wikipedia only. Others disapproved and claimed
that there was no need to change and that it should continue its
language policy of accepting all and keep its interwiki link name of
"Norsk".

Nynorsk Wikipedia soon proved a success, as it within the next few
months gathered several people who had felt uncomfortable in the
(mainly) Bokm?l environment at no:. The name displayed in interwiki
links became "Norsk (nynorsk)" (languages are not spelt with upper case
in Norwegian). To date it continues to be one of the fastest growing
wikipedias, with a steady article increase, now at over 6000 articles
and >50 editors with more than 10 edits since arrival.

== Votes ==

The issue of no:'s language policy has come up time and again, and a
vote was held in March ([[:no:Wikipedia:M?lform]]) as to which policy to
adapt. Independent of the method of the tally (whether or not to include
new contributors etc.) there was a majority for switching to a
Bokm?l/Riksm?l only language policy (50% for Bokm?l/Riksm?l, 43.2% for
Bokm?l/Riksm?l/Nynorsk/H?gnorsk, and 6.8% for the official variants
Bokm?l/Nynorsk only).

Following this result, there is now going to be a vote on which
interwiki link name will most appropriately reflect the current language
policy of no:. The result of this vote will most likely be either "Norsk
(bokm?l)" or "Norsk (bokm?l/riksm?l)".

Understandably, there has also been a debate as to whether the subdomain
should change from "no" to "nb", as this is the correct representation
of Bokm?l according to ISO 639-2. However, there is some resentment
towards such a move and currently a general acceptance in letting the
Bokm?l wikipedia stay at "no". The alternative some have suggested is a
server-side redirect from "no" to "nb", in the same way that "nb" today
is a server-side redirect to the equivalent page on "no".

== Summary of the problem ==

Unfortunately, a small group of users (who all write Bokm?l/Riksm?l) are
ignoring the results from the vote, and are claiming they want to
re-establish a wikipedia for all written standards of Norwegian. They
claim they have been in touch with people centrally in Wikimedia
(developers? stewards?) and that they have so far received positive
comments. With this email, we would like to state the fact that there
have been no official decisions about creating a third Norwegian
wikipedia containing both Bokm?l and Nynorsk, it is merely an unofficial
initiative from a small group of users which started a sign-on list at
[[:no:Bruker:Norsk_Wikipedia]]. A spontaneous list with signatures
against this activity was immediately created at
[[:no:Wikipedia-diskusjon:Fellesnorsk]]. The process of creating a third
Norwegian wikipedia has not gone through a voting process in any of the
two existing Norwegian wikipedias (no: and nn:) and can not be
considered as a decision by the Norwegian Wikipedia community.

We believe the creation of a third wikipedia under the Wikimedia
foundation would have a serious and unfortunate impact on the existing
wikipedias in Norwegian, no: and nn:, and would undermine Wikipedia's
reputation in Norway. This being said, we are all for extensive co-
operation between the four Scandinavian language wikipedias (including
Swedish and Danish), as evident by the recent creation of
[[:meta:Skanwiki]], the Scandinavian meta-pages, and the use of featured
articles from neighbour wikipedias.

== Conclusion ==

Hopefully, this letter will help people better understand the
complicated language situation of the Norwegian Wikipedia community, so
as to give a background on which discussion can take place on this list
in the future, such as the inevitable debate following a possible
request for a re-establishment of the common (and third!) Norwegian
Wikipedia.

>From the community of no.wikipedia.org and nn.wikipedia.org,

Bjarte S?rensen [[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on nn:)
Lars Alvik [[:no:User:Profoss]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on no:)
?yvind A. Holm [[:no:User:Sunny256]] (Administrator on no:)
Onar Vikingstad [[:no:User:Vikingstad]] (Administrator on no:)
Jon Harald S?by [[:no:User:Jhs]] (Administrator on no:)
Chris Nyborg [[:no:User:Cnyborg]] (Administrator on no:)
Guttorm Flatab? [[:no:User:Dittaeva]] (Administrator on nn:)
Gunleiv Hadland [[:meta:User:Gunnernett]] (Administrator on nn:)
Jarle Fagerheim [[:nn:User:Jarle]] (Administrator on nn:)
?yvind Jo Heimdal Eik [[:en:User:Pladask]] (Administrator on nn: and no:)
Kristian Andr? Gallis [[:nn:User:Kristaga]]
Vegard W?rp [[:no:User:Vegardw]]
Nina Aldin Thune [[:no:User:Nina]]
Thor-Rune Hansen [[:no:User:ThorRune]]
Claes Tande [[:no:User:Ctande]]
Arnt-Erik Krokaa [[:no:User:AEK]]
Rune Sattler [[:no:User:Shauni]]


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] cvs head version - change of user preference: fully
 re-arranging the sub-options

body:
I have some questions re. the current user preferences, as can be seen
on testwiki http://test.leuksman.com

The screen layout of some but not all user preferences option pages has
been fully re-arranged by avar so that the options are no longer line by
line, but one after the other.

I think, this format is unclear and wonder, whether there was a decision
to change it in that way.
T.


from_name: P. Steemans

subject: [Wikitech-l] (no subject)

body:
Hello dear all,
In the preferences, the function who allows the user to change by
himself his login doesn't work. Have you a solution to solve this problem?
Thenk you in advance
Philippe


body:
Brion:

EConfirm, well done, I like it.

There are some outstanding issues with ENotif (e.g. bugs), which I have
fixed for the current head version on my pc; I think of posting the diff
to bugzilla at about 27.06.2005 02:00 UTC .

short: All enotif-calls as such have been moved from Article.php to
logically correct place in RecentChange.php NotifyChange and NotifyNew,
further decreasing total amount of code lines for enotif. "(last seen)"
links. Optional e-mail notification for _new_ pages (for sysops,
developers, and bureaucrats) in a few additional lines.
Memcache-efficient way of user_newtalk signalling is fully back, this
table is not handled by enotif. User page changes are also signalled in
the newmessage marker. Updaters.inc included.

Wikinaut Tom


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Test wiki (e-mail address confirmation)
	[correction: 27.04.2005]

body:
Thomas Gries schrieb:

> Brion:
>
> EConfirm, well done, I like it.
>
> There are some outstanding issues with ENotif (e.g. bugs), which I
> have fixed for the current head version on my pc; I think of posting
> the diff to bugzilla at about 27.04.2005 02:00 UTC .
>
> short: All enotif-calls as such have been moved from Article.php to
> logically correct place in RecentChange.php NotifyChange and
> NotifyNew, further decreasing total amount of code lines for enotif.
> "(last seen)" links. Optional e-mail notification for _new_ pages (for
> sysops, developers, and bureaucrats) in a few additional lines.
> Memcache-efficient way of user_newtalk signalling is fully back, this
> table is not handled by enotif. User page changes are also signalled
> in the newmessage marker. Updaters.inc included.
>
> Wikinaut Tom
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikitech-l] problem setting up v 1.4 - index.php not found

body:
Hi, when I try to install my wiki at

http://www.ars-vita-italica.com

I receive this message
*****

  Multiple Choices

The document name you requested (|/config/index.php|) could not be found
on this server. However, we found documents with names similar to the
one you requested.

Available documents:

    * /config/index.html
      <http://www.ars-vita-italica.com/config/index.html> (common basename)

Please consider informing the owner of the referring page
<http://www.ars-vita-italica.com/> about the broken link.

*****

But: index.php  IS there.

Yesterday evening I made some trials and when I modify the directory
name "config" to "conf" and insert the direct address

http://www.ars-vita-italica.com/conf/index.php

Mediawiki installs, but afterwards it tries to access the Main_Page on

http://www.ars.vita-italica.com/conf/index.php/index.php=....

and of course: this cannot work

Is there someone who had the same experience? What can I do about this?

Thank you!

Ciao, Sabine


from_name: Christophe Truffier

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki and PostgreSQL

body:
Kurt Roeckx a ?crit :
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2005 at 03:36:59PM +0200, Christophe Truffier wrote:
>
>>Brion Vibber a ?crit :
>>
>>>You might want to start with the in-progress patches at
>>>http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1709
>>
>>Yes, of course !
>>Thank you for this quick answer.
>
>
> I've been really busy, but I'll try to atleast finnish the
> installer this weekend.

Hi,

After patching the cvs checkout I've downloaded recently I realize that
there were some problems because few files are not the same that those
you use to make this patch, for example config/index.php is in revision
1.97 while actual one is ~1.113 IIRC. so I were not able to put this
part of patch:
?
@@ -575,15 +674,30 @@
  			extract( $wgDatabase->tableNames( 'text', 'page', 'revision' ) );
?

Also I have problem with includes/Setup.php: you're using 1.120 revision
while 1.129 is actually provided...I noticed for this one that global
variables where removed by 1.127 revision...

I'm looking for a way to include those patch to make installer work in
1.5pre-alpha cvs revision.

CU

--
Christophe Truffier
UIN #39872819
http://www.nah-ko.org/ - http://www.zrx21.com/

De l'usage du couriel:
http://www.usenet-fr.net/fr-chartes/rfc1855.html


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fact check/Copyediting request

body:
Charles Matthews (charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com) [050426 02:54]:

> >In my experience, given enough time all articles on Wikipedia grow; some
> >just take longer than others.

> To add to that: [[Wikipedia:Peer Review]] is a way to get some feedback.

Seconded. Peer Review is great stuff. Even if you don't get helpful
suggestions directly in the request, people *will* look over your article
and often add to it very helpfully.

- d.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Stephen Forrest wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>Spurred by some brief experiments with recording pronunciations on
>Commons, I am interested (at least conceptually) in making free audio
>recordings (licence GFDL, format .ogg) of various important historical
>texts or literary works which are now free (public domain or
>otherwise).
>
>I suspect there is appetite among volunteers for such a project, and
>so I'm wondering whether there is a place for such things in the
>Wikimedia world.  (I wouldn't be surprised if this had been discussed
>before, though I can't find a reference to it.)
>
>Some natural choices are:
>
>Wikisource:
>Pro: Focus is on free-content versions of important historical texts
>or literary works.
>Con: Mandate seems to be only for text, and there is apparently a 5 MB
>limit per file.
>
We haven't really had any discussion about hosting this type of file on
Wikisource, although I don't really forsee anyone having objections.  I
do support the file size limit because slow browsers have difficulty
downloading the files, and editing them can be nearly impossible.

I did a quick look at some OTR (Old Time Radio) files of the "Boston
Blackie" show, and these do run at about 5 Mb for a half-hour show in
mp3 format.  How do .ogg files compare for file size?

>Commons:
>Pro: Many sound files, and file size limit is larger (20 MB).
>Con: Unsure if it's appropriate for this.  Commons is intended for
>shared media resources across Wikimedia projects, and I can't see how
>(for example) the Catalan Wiktionary would need an audio version of
>Chapter 7 of Wuthering Heights.  Existing sound files on the Commons
>are all quite short.
>
>Right now I'm leaning towards using the Commons.  Any comments about
>this, either about the Commons as a proposed place, or about the idea
>in general?
>
>Lastly, would anyone happen to know of any existing archives of free
>(as in free-libre) audio recordings available online?
>
>
It would take a bit of research to find out what's available.  Speaking
only for OTR files, many thousands of these are available cheap on CD.
The claim is that the copyrights have expired on these, although I have
not yet taken steps to verify this.  I have nevertheless wondered in the
context of wikisource whether there was any easy way to transcribe these
so that the scripts could be made available through Wikisource.

Ec


from_name: geni

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Once an article has been titles,
	can thentitle be changed?

body:
On 4/26/05, Michael P. Hopcroft <michael at mphpress.com> wrote:
> I need a title change on one of my articles to correct a spelling error.
> Who so I ask?
>
> Michael Hopcroft

see [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]

--
geni


subject:
[Wikitech-l] testwiki cvs head: logged-in user name not shown any
 longer in the upper right corner,  "My page"  is shown instead

body:
Hi,
I suffer from not being notified about my account log-in status any
longer, and guess, that many of you feel the same.

Instead of showing the name of the logged-in user, the testwiki and
current CVS HEAD version only shows

   "My page  my talk preferences ....."

This can easily lead to committing edits as anonymous, because one
forgot to log in and appears to me a big chance in the "look-and-feel"
of MediaWiki.
Can this please be reverted to be compliant with the standard
user-interface, so that one's name is shown again ?

Tom


subject: [Foundation-l] board elections

body:
Anthere wrote:

>We need to have new elections for the board of directors soon.
>
>Which implies at the same time very probably some technical set up as well as election administrators to organise it. In the same way than last year, we would need a couple of volunteers who are not running for election to serve as election administrators. Translations work will also be needed.
>
>Please volunteer!
>
>Elections details are not fixed yet, but I guess we need to start make things move :-)
>Jimbo will keep you informed on the matter in a little while and will very likely handle most of its organisation as a neutral party.
>
When the by-laws were accepted they provided that the elected
representatives would be one for all contributors and one for paid-up
members.  What is the current status of that distinction?  Have we
abandoned the idea of paid members?

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] board elections


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: GerardM

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Papiamento pap-an and pap-ar

body:
Hoi,
I learned that there are two ways of writing Papiamento. The Aruban
way and the Antilian way. In order to distinguish these two versions,
I have added pap-ar and pap-an as the two ways in which you can write
Papiamento..

The content we received from FrankC is Antilliaans.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Chris Nyborg

subject:
SV: [Wikipedia-l] Language policy agreement in the NorwegianWikipedia
	community

body:
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> Fra: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-
> bounces at Wikimedia.org] P? vegne av Mark Williamson
> Sendt: 26. april 2005 02:33
> Til: bjarte at pingpingping.com; wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Emne: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Language policy agreement in the
> NorwegianWikipedia community
>
> Bjarte,
>
> If these people really did receive positive reactions, which I'm
> doubtful they did, it's because most of the people in charge don't
> like having two Wikipedias where there "could" be 1 instead. It is
> seen as a tragic division of effort, and no doubt those who were
> discussing it with them played down dramatically the actual
> differences between Bokm?l and Nynorsk.

Seems like a good analysis; I would add that it seems likely, from what
they've written on no:, that they have misrepresented the actual
situation. They seem to labour under the misconception that having a
mixed Wikipedia means having one Norwegian Wikipedia, whereas it means
having three, thus creating a further division of effort.

Their hopes of merging Nynorsk and Bokm?l are quite misplaced, and it
seems to be obvious to most users that the losing part in such a merger
would be the Nynorsk users; their Wikipedia is the first modern
encyclopedia in Nynorsk, and thus a great step forward for the Nynorsk
community.

>
> I also have an opinion regarding no: and nb:.
>
> no: should be moved to nb:, and no: should redirect to nb:.
>
> However, this should eventually be changed so that no: is a portal
> containing a link to both, but there should be enough time in between
> for people to get sort of used to the new URL, as there was with
> "wikipedia.org" vs "en.wikipedia.org" for the English Wikipedia. As
> with the English Wikipedia, however, actual article requests to no:
> such as http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norge should automatically be
> redirected to the Bokm?l article, with perhaps special exceptions when
> the title is obviously Nynorsk.
>
> To continue forever to use no: for Bokm?l and/or Riksm?l is inherently
> non-neutral. no: is listed in the ISO standard as "Norwegian", yet if
> Nynorsk is disallowed on no: but no: remains at the current subdomain,
> that means we are actually endorsing the view that "Bokm?l is the
> _real_ Norwegian language".

I agree, in principle, but I do hope that we can take his slowly. Both
Wikipedias (with the exception of one user) seem to agree that we should
figure out the best way to create a portal before moving. As long as we
have an open dialogue and continue to move towards a portal solution
(perhaps including also the Swedish and Danish Wikipedias in a
Scandinavian portal), I think that all of us would be better served with
a slightly problematic domain name than with a frustrating half-baked
portal.

The move from no: to nb: with no: as a redirect to nb: could of course
be made straight away, but I fear that this would all to easily become a
permanent solution, and doesn't really fix the problem; no: would still
equal Bokm?l/Riksm?l.

Chris Nyborg
[[:no:User:Cnyborg]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki and PostgreSQL

body:
Christophe Truffier a ?crit :
> Hi,
>
> After patching the cvs checkout I've downloaded recently I realize that
> there were some problems because few files are not the same that those
> you use to make this patch, for example config/index.php is in revision
> 1.97 while actual one is ~1.113 IIRC. so I were not able to put this
> part of patch:
> ?
> @@ -575,15 +674,30 @@
>              extract( $wgDatabase->tableNames( 'text', 'page',
> 'revision' ) );
> ?
>
> Also I have problem with includes/Setup.php: you're using 1.120 revision
> while 1.129 is actually provided...I noticed for this one that global
> variables where removed by 1.127 revision...
>
> I'm looking for a way to include those patch to make installer work in
> 1.5pre-alpha cvs revision.

So, when the config/index.php file has been updated to 1.99 revision,
the code part who's used in your patch were removed.

...it's a little bit difficult to find where to update code.

CU

--
Christophe Truffier
UIN #39872819
http://www.nah-ko.org/ - http://www.zrx21.com/

De l'usage du couriel:
http://www.usenet-fr.net/fr-chartes/rfc1855.html


from_name: Steven R.Loomis

subject: [Wikipedia-l] mt wikipedia and encodings

body:
Thanks for the responses about the unicode issues with
en.wikipedia.org. Firefox has worked well so far, and I'm glad to hear
the other wiki(s) will move to utf-8.

As regards the Maltese Wikipedia  mt:  , I'd like to offer some
backstory.  The Maltese wikipedia was 'founded' if you will around
September 2004, (i.e. the first entries in the language were made).   I
had more or less forgotten about it  - and a few other entries were
made later that year.  Then sometime early in 2005, the
Maltese-language blogosphere started to pick up steam.  I began looking
at the Wikipedia again, and started following the steps to set it up
properly.   Fueled by blog links, the number of authors on the Maltese
wikipedia grew to staggering proportions - about five or six active
contributors.

In Malta, I've noticed that some things are easier done in person.
Plus, being such friendly people and a small island, meeting together
is a natural way to continue something.  As I was going to be visiting,
I started putting notes up actually about a week before the meeting
date.  We took votes (in WIki style) and were able to hash out a
meeting time eventually.    Venue was to be an famous outdoor cafe in
the main square that has wifi access.. 	 however, it was raining and so
it started indoors.  The cafe staff complained, however - not about AC
power usage, but about computers interfering with the cash register
(!).. so it moved outdoors when the rain stopped.  This was better, as
WiFi didn't work inside and I had not managed to grab copies of the
pages we wanted to discuss.

Five people came in total, two of which aren't yet active contributors
but should be soon.    We talked about orthography issues (always a
popular and recurring topic in any language I think), tasks to do,
organizational issues,  POV, categories.  Several of the action items
have been completed already.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how things develop.   Sometimes
being on a small island has its advantages,  logistically. I think
there is some interest in meeting once in a while - at the very least I
will try to organize something myself when I next visit, probably in a
year.

I think some policies etc are still being hashed out, after which mt:
will be ready for a new phase in promotion.

One must also realize that a standard keyboard for this language was
only finalized in 2002, and has only seen adoption recently.    Maltese
orthography as such has been around since 1921, but until very recently
a lot of data has been encoded using special fonts and not Unicode.

Sa??a lilkom (health to all)
Steven


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test wiki

body:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
> I've got a 1.5 test wiki now up for you kind folks to use and abuse:
> http://test.leuksman.com/

The Email notification feature seems to be working OK but there are a couple
of points which I've noticed:
* The "You have new messages" banner when my talk page is changed does not
go away when I read my talk page. Neither does it go away when I edit my
talk page. It seems to go away only when I click the "Reset all notification
flags" button on my watchlist: this is *not* expected behaviour.
* When you click said "Reset all notification flags" button, you get taken
to the "select for removal" mode of the watchlist: it would be more expected
to show an updated watchlist with the "updated" flags removed.
* It would be handy to have the option to roll up a bunch of notifications
into a single email, say every hour, so that you don't get hit by a flurry
of tiny little emails all looking very similar :-)
* I would hope that the luminous green ENORMOUS flags on the Watchlist will
be replaced by something rather smaller and better formatted: a green "U" to
the left next to the existing "N" and "m" flags would be ideal.

While on the subject, there's no chance the formatting of the
watchlist/recentchanges could be cleaned up is there? When a long entry
wraps, the result is really ugly, and the flags get lost in the noise. I
know there are some people out there who react to HTML tables like a vampire
to garlic, but these pages really let the project down when they look so
messy.
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Alphax

subject: [Wikipedia-l] The Onion on Peer Review

body:
Joseph Reagle wrote:

>
>Given the latest fire-storm on questions of authority and peer review, this
>might make some smile! :):)
>
>
>*Fifth-Grade Science Paper Doesn't Stand Up to Peer Review*
>
>A three-member panel of 10-year-old Michael Nogroski's fellow classmates
>at Nathaniel Macon Elementary School unanimously agreed Tuesday that his
>327-word essay "Otters" did not meet the requirements for peer approval.
>
>Read the rest: http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4116&n=3
>
>
>
Maybe he should have used this: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/

A new way of making Wikipedia articles perhaps?

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject:
[Wikitech-l] testwiki cvs head: logged-in user name not shown
	any longer in the upper right corner,  "My page"  is shown instead

body:
While I can see the rationale behind the change (making pages cacheable
for logged in users and anons alike), I have to agree that the result is
rather confusing, particularly in the current Wikimedia environment with
its hundreds of wikis and separate logins which expire separately.

I thought that we were moving towards having sections of a page
dynamically generated and other sections statically cached, using ESI?
If so, is there any reason not to display the login information?

All best,

Erik


from_name: Kevin Carillo

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Question about uncompressing and importing Wikipedia
	"old" table

body:
  Hi.

I am a MSc. student in admistration in Montreal, Canada, and am doing my
master's thesis on Wikipedia.

I am having troubles importing the table "old" of wikipedia.

I have first downloaded all the dump files (exported on April 21st) and then
concatenated them (cat ...).The concatenation of the dump files (english
version of Wikipedia) has ended up with a file of around 31 gigabytes
 Apparently, the compression format has changed for bzip2 does not recognize
the resulting file as a bz2 one but gunzip is able to uncompress the file
(by naming the compressed file old_table.sql.gz).

  Has the compression format been officially  changed ?

 Moreover, the uncompressed file has a  final size of only 34,201,462 KB
which is not much bigger than the compressed file. Is that normal?

 Nonetheless, the resulting sql file seems to be readable for it is possible
to import the 'old table' from it. But I don't know whether the file is
complete or not, and whether the old table that I got, will not miss any
record.

I successfully downloaded & installed several times already the english
version of the wikipedia database; but this time, there is something I don't
get.
Could you please indicate me what is wrong in what I am doing, or whether
there has been any change in the procedures to follow?

Thank you.

Kevin Carillo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] A place for audio recordings of books/texts?

body:
Hello Stephen,

your project sounds very interesting, I hope to see (hear) some results
soon!

The Wikimedia Commons is indeed the correct place, and your "Con" for it
is not a Con at all:

> Con: Unsure if it's appropriate for this.  Commons is intended for
> shared media resources across Wikimedia projects, and I can't see how
> (for example) the Catalan Wiktionary would need an audio version of
> Chapter 7 of Wuthering Heights.

A file on the Commons currently needs to be *potentially* useful in at
least *one* Wikimedia context. Your files could be linked from
Wikisource, but also from Wikibooks and Wikipedia.

Generally, if it's a file, and it's free content, it belongs in the
Wikimedia Commons so it can be easily used everywhere.

However, your case underscores my standing argument that Wikisource and
Wikimedia Commons should be merged, since they both serve very similar
purposes (repositories of free content), and transformations like yours
would be natural in a single repository.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Conference report from South Africa

body:
On 4/26/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> And I should add, why do we need a spoken Wikipedia? Wouldn't it be
> better to adapt a TTS engine to get articles from Wikipedia, and read
> them? Remember, TTS engines can be made for any language, and it's
> becoming increasingly easy to make them even if you're not an expert.

Mark, not sure if you're wondering about the whole idea of audible
aritcles, or just the human-centered approach to it.

If you find a TTS system that is acceptably good (Festival, MBROLA,
et al) then feel free to try it and post some samples at
[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia]]. But so far the TTS results
I've heard have been quite unsatisfactory, and the "ear fatigue"
experienced when listening to a herky jerky TTS system doesn't bode
well for long articles. Wikipedia might be a great testbed for a TTS
system. I'd like to see how it does on mixed language articles like
[[Dim sum]].

-User:Fuzheado


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Andy Rabagliati said:
>
> I assure you, this problem is very real. Have you travelled to the
> North of England ? You may be suprised - sometimes you will have
> /absolutely no idea/ what they are talking about.

The dialects of English are deeply entrenched; in other nations dialects
as diverse as those of Northumberland, Durham and Wearside might each be
classed as separate languages.  As a child of five, I recall that a
journey of three miles to school took me to the neighborhood of South
Shields, where the vernacular had its own words and pronunciations quite
distinct from those of the Whitburn area which tended towards the
Sunderland dialect.  I was literally a foreigner.


from_name: Stephen Forrest

body:
On 4/26/05, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:

> There is an essential difference between the Commons data and the
> Wikisource data. The Commons data has as a restriction that the
> content needs to be potentially usefull for one of the Wikimedia
> projects.
>
> Images and sounds uploaded to Commons are directly usable in all the
> projects. There is no such facility for Wikisource.

This was part of my initial concern with the idea of using Commons for
this proposed project.  Though it's obviously useful for the Wikipedia
article [[Wuthering Heights]] to link to an audio recording of the
selfsame work elsewhere in the Wikimedia world, the recording should
not actually be _part of_ the encyclopaedia.

However, I am now convinced that these recordings belong on Commons
regardless.  Even if the status quo persists, the Commons still exists
to serve Wikisource as much as it does any other project, and having
audio recordings of Wikisource texts seems quite justifiable.

Steve


from_name: Andy Rabagliati

body:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Mark Williamson wrote:

> I am guessing that at least a couple of those who attended the
> conference were native or fluent speakers of some of South Africa's
> _other_ official languages.

Afrikaans only.

> Do these people know that we have Wikipedias in their mother tongue?

Since Angela contacted them by posting on their Talk pages, yes.

> It seems to me that African-language localisation is an important part
> of open-content and open-source in South Africa (see translate.co.za
> ), yet very few of these people seem to know about these Wikipedias.

Knowing a Xhosa man in the IT profession, I asked him about the KDE
menus in Xhosa. He said he found them confusing - when programming,
using Email, every day interactions, he uses English. It actually slows
him down to flip to Xhosa.

My french is quite passable. After staying in France for a while, I find
myself thinking in French. It becomes quicker than thinking in English
and translating everything.

Not saying it isn't a worthy goal to do the translation, particularly
for people who are just starting with computers.

Cheers,    Andy!


body:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Timwi wrote:

> Andy Rabagliati wrote:
> >
> > There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
> >
> > * Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like CamelCase :-)
>
> the sound file is not an original article, but a reading of an
> existing textual version.

At the conference, we discussed original content contribution by phone.
This is wikipedia-by-cellphone - you have to be able to contribute, or
it is not a wiki !

> > * Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
> >   someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)
>
> I'm not sure how large and how representative a sample of listeners you
> have already surveyed, but I highly doubt this is a real problem.
> recordings are obviously supposed to be spoken slowly and clearly.
>
> Are you a native speaker of English? Where are you from? What accents do
> you tend to have trouble understanding?

Yes, I am a native speaker, in a plummy version of the Queens English.
I am also well travelled.

I assure you, this problem is very real. Have you travelled to the North
of England ? You may be suprised - sometimes you will have /absolutely
no idea/ what they are talking about.

I lived for 10 years in the USA. Do you think an Indian would have any
idea what a native of Brooklyn was talking about ? English might be the
mother tongue for both of them - but Churchill famously said that
America and England were separated by a common language.

I have had to ask someone from Huntsville, Alabama, to repeat themselves
three times - and they were only spelling their name.

Cheers,    Andy!


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

body:
The option to move pages is disabled for new users to avoid page move
vandalism. You should be able to move them yourself after a while.

Mgm

On 4/26/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/26/05, Michael P. Hopcroft <michael at mphpress.com> wrote:
> > I need a title change on one of my articles to correct a spelling error.
> > Who so I ask?
> >
> > Michael Hopcroft
>
> see [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test wiki

body:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
> I've got a 1.5 test wiki now up for you kind folks to use and abuse:
> http://test.leuksman.com/

One thing I just noticed: if you add a new section (usually by clicking the
"+" link on a talk page) and then use the "Show Changes" feature, the result
alleges that you are about to replace the *entire* page with your new
section.

Oops much?
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordon

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [patch] Anonymous edit warning

body:
On 4/26/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordon wrote:
> > My users keep accidentally editing anonymously when they think they're
> > logged in; this has gotten so bad that a few of them have asked me to
> > disable anonymous edits.  Instead, I wrote the patch below my sig, set
> > $wgEnableAnonWarning to true, and put the following in
> > MediaWiki:AnonWarning:
>
> I notice when I'm not logged in because the "minor" and "watch this
> article" options are missing. Isn't that warning enough?

One of my users keeps not seeing things in the interface (like the
toolbox, or the "edit" tab, or the "hide minor edits" link) even after
I tell her they're there.  Hence, I decided I needed something rather
less subtle.  ;^)

(Actually, I've done the same thing, so...)

--
Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordon <brent at brentdax.com>
Perl and Parrot hacker

"I used to have a life, but I liked mail-reading so much better."


from_name: Jama Poulsen

body:
On Tue, Apr 26, 2005 at 03:22:01AM -0400, Stephen Forrest wrote:
> Lastly, would anyone happen to know of any existing archives of free
> (as in free-libre) audio recordings available online?

http://www.geocities.com/resistancemp3/ (no licensing info?)
http://www.freedomarchives.org (don't know how free this really is)
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/audio/audio.html (free)

Licensing WP incompatible?:
http://commoncontent.org/catalog/audio/speech/
http://www.legaltorrents.com (perhaps more than music at some point)
http://www.magnatune.com/info/openmusic
http://bt.etree.org
http://www.archive.org/audio/

More links at:
  http://debianlinux.net/multimedia.html#multimedia_data
  http://debianlinux.net/freedom.html

Jama Poulsen
http://debianlinux.net
http://wikicompany.org


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Foundation-l] Board elections

body:
I would be happy to help out with the Board Elections again.

Danny


subject: [Foundation-l] Board elections