body:
Robert wrote:

>
>Zoe is angry because I added factual historical information
>to this article that she is apparently embarassed by;
>Chiropractic theory is an 18th century religious theory,
>one of many created at that time which attempted to fuse
>science and religion. (This is really not a shocking claim
>for anyone read in this subject; this was a very common
>phenomenon.)  According to the National Council Against
>Health Fraud, both its beliefs and the way it indoctrinates
>true believers fits the dictionary definition of a cult.
>
I would not dispute that religion played a significant role in the early
development of chiropractic in the 18th century and earlier.  That,
however, is a reflection on a time when the objectives of science had to
be consistent with those of the church.  There was no requirement that
the consistency had to be rational.  It is a fallacy to believe that we
are still in the 18th century.

Eclecticology


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Giskart

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Current events

body:
Sheldon Rampton
<sheldon.rampton at verizon.net> wrote in
news:a05111b0eba99ad23ef3c@[192.168.0.2]:

[cut]
> I think we should go further still and shoot for the ultimate goal of
> creating "Wikimedia." That's media with an "m." It would use

Domain ID:D95346862-LROR
Domain Name:WIKIMEDIA.ORG
Created On:16-Mar-2003 08:22:47 UTC
Expiration Date:16-Mar-2004 08:22:47 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:R52-LROR
Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED

That is fast. Who owns it?
--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New bug concerning lists

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>I certainly hope that this one does not get "fixed".

>If the error will continue to stay for too long, it will be me who will
>have to go.

That would be too bad.
But you're probably not going to get far calling it an "error",
when people worked hard on the programming
to get it to specifically do just what it does.

>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>== title ==
>line
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>and
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>== title ==
>
>line
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>must come out the same:
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
title

>

>line
>

>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

They don't *must* come out the same; that's up to us all to decide.
And the wiki parser was specifically designed so that they don't.
(This particular effect was the result of a big compromise, as it happens.)
Of course, the
 is irrelevant in HTML 4 --
by HTML specs, they *must* be rendered the same by the browser --
which is why people worked on getting different CSS as well.
(When we go to XHTML, where the initial
 will be required,
then presumably we'll have to rely on the CSS for everything.)

>Just make it a habit to produce XHTML and problems will vanish with a
>sudden.

*These* "problems" won't vanish -- the differences will still be there.
In the case of the line break, nothing would change.
In the case of the header, the CSS would still produce the effect.

>>Is your offline editor really unable to handle long lines?
>>(I only remember emacs' being brought up,
>>but I edit wiki files with emacs all the time.)

>I'm using 'turn-on-auto-fill' and 'fill-column' (72 resp. 79) for text
>mode and related modes.  And I use fill commands to make the text look
>nice.

Ah, there's your problem.  Turn these off when editing wiki files,
and all will be well.  You can even set up emacs to do this automatically
when you edit a file whose name ends in (say) ".wiki".

>>In any case, these aren't bugs, but feature requests.

>I'd rather rate these things as bugs.  Somewhere is the claim that
>empty lines are paragraph separators.  The wiki-to-html converter does
>not obey this rule.

Then that's a documentation problem.
Where does it say that? and I'll fix it.

-- Toby


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] legal threat in eo wikipedia! / legxa minaco en la eo-Vikipedio

body:
Would it be possible for the aggreived party to email me personally in
English, so that I might possibly resolve the problem amicably and
with benefits to all parties involved?

--Jimbo


from_name: Brion Vibber

references:
<Pine.GSO.4.33.0303101231250.18928-100000@aludra.usc.edu>
	 <shof4ceghp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de> <sh3cloigal.fsf_-_@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	 <20030316185459.GA10778@math-rs-n01.ucr.edu>
	 <sh3clnf5xt.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>

body:
On Sun, 2003-03-16 at 11:49, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> writes:
> > I certainly hope that this one does not get "fixed".
>
> If the error will continue to stay for too long, it will be me how will
> have to go.

You are welcome to come and go as you please.

(re: headers with vs without following blank lines)
> But the parser forget to eat spaces at the start and at the end of the
> title line ("== title ==" -> "<h2> title </h2>") and is does bad things
> to the paragraph (the <p> element).

This feature was added by popular request. It would probably be better
produced with a separate style class on the header elements to munge the
margins rather than relying on tricky behavior with missing <p>s. You're
welcome to improve the code to produce technically correct output.

> Just make it a habit to produce XHTML and problems will vanish with a
> sudden.

Thank you for volunteering to rewrite the parser to consistently produce
correct XHTML. Right?

> > Is your offline editor really unable to handle long lines?
> > (I only remember emacs' being brought up,
> > but I edit wiki files with emacs all the time.)
>
> I'm using 'turn-on-auto-fill' and 'fill-column' (72 resp. 79) for text
> mode and related modes.  And I use fill commands to make the text look
> nice.

Ah, you're an idiocyncratic line-breaker. You should know that if I had
my way you'd be locked up. ;)

Seriously, *your* ideal column width and *my* ideal column width are not
always going to be the same. If your lines are longer than my edit box,
I see ragged broken lines and text does *not* look nice. If your lines
are shorter than my edit box, I see a lot of annoyingly short lines and
text does *not* look nice. This has been an endemic problem for years in
email and usenet, and I've no desire to see it in wiki.

Let the editors wrap lines as appropriate for display, please, and don't
make them ragged with forced line breaks.

> > In any case, these aren't bugs, but feature requests.
>
> I'd rather rate these things as bugs.

I'd rather see some code from you if you're so darn sure you know how to
do it right.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Stevertigo

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>
To: "wikipedia-l" <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New bug concerning lists


body:
> >Toby: I certainly hope that this one does not get "fixed".
> >If the error will continue to stay for too long, it will be me how will
> >have to go.
> >Brion: You are welcome to come and go as you please.

What is this? Sharp words of wit on the En:wiki mailing list?!
The future is bright. :) -SV


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

body:
At 08:25 PM 3/16/03 +0100, Pedro wrote:

>I think this would be an attention (
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention)
>principle : first the nowadays articles ( topics in the news).
>
>For me, the attention principles would be :
>
>1. General before particular ( specific ).
>2. In the news topics before another ones ( this is over the 1st.
>principle, if necessary).

As a practical matter, lots of people are already doing this, but the other
significant
factor is that people will write about what they know and care about. Once
in a while
someone like me will take an hour to do online research for a quick article on
something in the news (for example, I did a quick bio of the VP of
Venezuela when
he was briefly acting president), but I'm not suddenly an expert on the
history or
geography of Iraq.

The beauty of Wikipedia is that it has room for people to follow lots of
different
interests, and sometimes that means that when something hits the news, the
article is already there, written by someone who cared about that enough to
write about it instead of about whatever was in the headlines that week.

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] legal threat in eo wikipedia! / legxa minaco en
	la eo-Vikipedio

body:
On Sun, 2003-03-16 at 13:42, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Would it be possible for the aggreived party to email me personally in
> English, so that I might possibly resolve the problem amicably and
> with benefits to all parties involved?

I've forwarded your request.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: julien tayon

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] legal threat in eo wikipedia! / legxa minaco en
 la eo-Vikipedio

body:
Le Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:09:07 +0100 (CET),
inspir?(e) Chuck Smith <msochuck at yahoo.com> ?crivait la plume alerte :
>
> Rough translation:  Dear sir, please communicate to me
> the adress(es) of who to send a letter by mail for you
> and for Mr. Brion Vibber, who are indicated as the
> ones responsible for the editing of this encyclopedia.
>  Please communicate the address, but also the complete
> name, of the person who uses the name, "Kricxjo".  If
> you don't respond, I will send through my lawyer a
> registered letter to your attention at the central
> office of UEA in Rotterdam.  You can answer the nicely
> requested information below.  Thanks in advance for
> your response.
[...]
First ask him a way to authenticate that this mail is really from him
(electronic signature, snail-mail with receipt, ID card in a real
meeting, ask him his personnal pone number check it in yellow pages, and
phone him back...). Unless, you can certify this is him, it is important
to be sure he is THE guy who he is claiming to be, so that you do not
give wikipedian real coordinate to someone else :)
But, he is quite stupid : it is fairly easy to find Brion's coordinates
without problem (google and whois are your friend for those who know how
to use them).

--
Julien Tayon
http://www.tayon.net/			       http://libroscope.org/
Si la v?rit? est une femme, essayons de la s?duire avant de la saisir.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events and Indymedia

body:
--- "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar> wrote:

> We would include indymedia like news source for
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_events

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yann Forget" <yann at forget-me.net>
> To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 11:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events
>
>
> Hi,
>
> This already exists. It's called Indymedia :
> http://www.indymedia.org.
>
> Yann
> --
> http://www.forget-me.net
> Alternatives sur le Net
> http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA

I didnot follow very well...but I am a little bit
worried
Could anyone explain to me what is precisely meant in
this bunch of mails about indymedia ?

I sure would not agree that wikipedia current news are
given by indymedia. Though I support indymedia, I
think they sure are to biaised to fit in the wikipedia
frame. And on the fr wiki, that would likely be done
by Yann.

Excuse me here Yann, but though you are really a good
wikipedian and did *great work* on the fr wikipedia, I
hope you admit you have a rather strong biais, as can
be seen in the nuclear-related articles . I sure hope
that (with Francis maybe) you give us some good
*neutral* articles on activism, anarchism and the
such, but I'll tell you plain, articles such as the
Activiste one that you wrote some time ago
(http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Activiste&oldid=34251)
are just way out of line. In particular the end of the
article

''L?exemplarit? est la force des activistes. De
contre-mod?les en contre-pouvoirs, face ? l?ennui,
quels r?ves croyaient vous que vont suivre vos enfants
? Ils seront lass?s de plus en plus t?t, blas?s et
aigris. Quelle que soit leur classe sociale, ils se
tourneront vers les seuls qui proposent de vivre ses
id?es et de les d?fendre, vers ceux qui pensent la
collectivit? et l??-venir. Ils suivront ceux qui leur
proposent une vrai identit? : ?tre humain. Enfin ils
les imiteront, ou plut?t ils tenteront leurs propres
exp?riences. Ce qui est certain et que de moins en
moins nombreux seront les insensibles et les
d?missionnaires, ils auront tous go?t? ? la libert?,
ils ne l?oublieront que difficilement. Alors il est
souhaitable que la soci?t? prenne acte et accompagne
son propre changement de paradigme politique. Il faut
commencer ? lib?rer les espaces et permettre ? ces
activistes de vivre sans ?tre des parasites. Ils
repr?sentent la seule mani?re de faire une politique
avec un sens : ?tre responsable de ses actes et
apprendre ? partager. Privil?gi?s, votre Monde
merveilleux n?est ni politiquement, ni humainement
possible acceptez le ! ! !''

You may find that fun, I don't think it is. No,
seriously !

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] legal threat in eo wikipedia! - Apology to Pedro

body:
Pedro M.V. wrote:

>Hey, I didn?t write it !!!------->>>
>
>>Pedro M.V. wrote:
>>
>>>But, he is quite stupid : it is fairly easy to find Brion's coordinates
>>>without problem (google and whois are your friend for those who know how
>>>to use them).
>>>
>>Brion and Chuck may be easy to find, but that may not be the case for
>>Kricxjo.
>>
My apoplogies if my cutting excess material from the message ended up
with the wrong person appearing responsible for the quote.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Zoe wrote:
> So in other words, if the article isn't something you care about,
>you have no interest in making sure that it's right?  Is this any way
>to run an encyclopedia?

I think it is.  We're all volunteers, and some of us have interests in
some areas that others don't.  No one has any moral duty to oversee
articles that they don't care about.  And we can't conclude from that
that people don't care about it being right -- it's just that we can't
all be motivated to watch everything.

--Jimbo


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "Der Spiegel" reports on Disinfopedia.com

body:
Hello,

the online edition of the German news magazine
"Der Spiegel" has a short text about Disinfopedia.com
by Sheldon Rampton, who is using the wikipedia-software
to run his site.

See http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,240466,00.html
(in German only)

Regards,

JeLuF


body:
At 08:49 PM 3/16/03 +0100, Karl wrote:
>Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> writes:
>
> > I certainly hope that this one does not get "fixed".
>
>If the error will continue to stay for too long, it will be me how will
>have to go.

This seems to be a matter of incompatibility between your preferred
editing software and the Wikipedia software. I wouldn't call that a
bug--neither
was written specifically to work with the other--and it shouldn't be an
insurmountable obstacle.

> > I hope that someday PediaWiki will recognise a lack of blank line,
> > not only next to headers but also next to lists, rules, etc,
> > as indicating that a feature is next to (or within) the paragraph.
>
>I guess you are talking about the next bug I want to go reporting :)
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>== title ==
>line
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>and
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>== title ==
>
>line
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>must come out the same:
>
>
title

>

>line
>

Why must they? Do we have a spec that says linebreaks should be
ignored in input but produced in output?

>But the parser forget to eat spaces at the start and at the end of the
>title line ("== title ==" -> "
 title
") and is does bad things
>to the paragraph (the
 element).
>
>Just make it a habit to produce XHTML and problems will vanish with a
>sudden.

Is that an offer to work on the code?

> > Is your offline editor really unable to handle long lines?
> > (I only remember emacs' being brought up,
> > but I edit wiki files with emacs all the time.)
>
>I'm using 'turn-on-auto-fill' and 'fill-column' (72 resp. 79) for text
>mode and related modes.  And I use fill commands to make the text look
>nice.

That makes sense when your editor is producing final text. It's not useful
when you're producing input for a formatter--whether that formatter is
PediaWiki, Quark, or a browser that's expecting HTML and CSS.

> > In any case, these aren't bugs, but feature requests.
>
>I'd rather rate these things as bugs.  Somewhere is the claim that
>empty lines are paragraph separators.  The wiki-to-html converter does
>not obey this rule.

Where is the claim? Unless that's in our spec, it's not a bug. Certainly,
you can't get your preferences installed and made high priority by asserting
that it's a bug that the software isn't doing things that aren't in its design
or specifications.

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


body:
Anthere wrote:

>Excuse me here Yann, but though you are really a good
>wikipedian and did *great work* on the fr wikipedia, I
>hope you admit you have a rather strong biais, as can
>be seen in the nuclear-related articles . I sure hope
>that (with Francis maybe) you give us some good
>*neutral* articles on activism, anarchism and the
>such, but I'll tell you plain, articles such as the
>Activiste one that you wrote some time ago
>(http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Activiste&oldid=34251)
>are just way out of line. In particular the end of the
>article
>
>''Lexemplaritest la force des activistes. De
>contre-modes en contre-pouvoirs, face lennui,
>quels res croyaient vous que vont suivre vos enfants
>? Ils seront lass de plus en plus t, blas et
>aigris. Quelle que soit leur classe sociale, ils se
>tourneront vers les seuls qui proposent de vivre ses
>ids et de les dendre, vers ceux qui pensent la
>collectivitet lvenir. Ils suivront ceux qui leur
>proposent une vrai identit: re humain. Enfin ils
>les imiteront, ou plut ils tenteront leurs propres
>expiences. Ce qui est certain et que de moins en
>moins nombreux seront les insensibles et les
>dissionnaires, ils auront tous gola libert
>ils ne loublieront que difficilement. Alors il est
>souhaitable que la sociprenne acte et accompagne
>son propre changement de paradigme politique. Il faut
>commencer liber les espaces et permettre ces
>activistes de vivre sans re des parasites. Ils
>reprentent la seule manie de faire une politique
>avec un sens : re responsable de ses actes et
>apprendre partager. Privili, votre Monde
>merveilleux nest ni politiquement, ni humainement
>possible acceptez le ! ! !''
>
>You may find that fun, I don't think it is. No,
>seriously !
>
I just read the whole article.  It reads more the tone of a well-crafted
newspaper editorial than of an encyclopedia article.

Eclecticology

>


body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
> >Excuse me here Yann, but though you are really a
> good
> >wikipedian and did *great work* on the fr
> wikipedia, I
> >hope you admit you have a rather strong biais, as
> can
> >be seen in the nuclear-related articles . I sure
> hope
> >that (with Francis maybe) you give us some good
> >*neutral* articles on activism, anarchism and the
> >such, but I'll tell you plain, articles such as the
> >Activiste one that you wrote some time ago
>
>(http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Activiste&oldid=34251)
> >are just way out of line. In particular the end of
> the
> >article
> >
> >''Lexemplaritest la force des activistes. De
> >contre-modes en contre-pouvoirs, face lennui,
> >quels res croyaient vous que vont suivre vos
> enfants
> >? Ils seront lass de plus en plus t, blas et
> >aigris. Quelle que soit leur classe sociale, ils se
> >tourneront vers les seuls qui proposent de vivre
> ses
> >ids et de les dendre, vers ceux qui pensent la
> >collectivitet lvenir. Ils suivront ceux qui leur
> >proposent une vrai identit: re humain. Enfin ils
> >les imiteront, ou plut ils tenteront leurs propres
> >expiences. Ce qui est certain et que de moins en
> >moins nombreux seront les insensibles et les
> >dissionnaires, ils auront tous gola libert
> >ils ne loublieront que difficilement. Alors il est
> >souhaitable que la sociprenne acte et accompagne
> >son propre changement de paradigme politique. Il
> faut
> >commencer liber les espaces et permettre ces
> >activistes de vivre sans re des parasites. Ils
> >reprentent la seule manie de faire une politique
> >avec un sens : re responsable de ses actes et
> >apprendre partager. Privili, votre Monde
> >merveilleux nest ni politiquement, ni humainement
> >possible acceptez le ! ! !''
> >
> >You may find that fun, I don't think it is. No,
> >seriously !
> >
> I just read the whole article.  It reads more the
> tone of a well-crafted
> newspaper editorial than of an encyclopedia article.
>
> Eclecticology

Maybe does it sound like an Indymedia article ?

Someone improved Yann original version
fortunately...but still...when we start with such an
article, that sure is not easy to do a good job.
In any case, if that is more the tone of Indymedia, it
has nothing to do with Wikipedia (that's ok to add
links though :-))

Imho

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Matt M.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l digest, Vol 1 #1079 - 15 msgs

body:
> Please, stay away from _all_ those tricks.  The keyword is less
> surprise.  If you will continue to create surprises to me, it's me who
> will stay away from the project.  There are already enough issues.

Sorreeeeee, didn't see your toe there. Don't worry, I'll refrain from
suggesting other ideas in future.


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Feature request

body:
"Matt M." <matt_mcl at sympatico.ca> writes:

> I wonder if anyone else has thought of this, but while considering the pipe
> trick ([[foo (bar)|]] = [[foo (bar)|foo]]) it occurred to me that one of the
> places this would be most useful is in place names, a huge portion of which
> are in the form [[Boise, Idaho]].

Please, stay away from _all_ those tricks.  The keyword is less
surprise.  If you will continue to create surprises to me, it's me who
will stay away from the project.  There are already enough issues.

BTW, it's much, much more important to improve the search feature and
to fix bottlenecks.

And stop creating "compatibility" HTML.  _Appending_ a "<p>" element is
not proper HTML.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


body:
Stevertigo wrote:

>> >Toby: I certainly hope that this one does not get "fixed".
>> >If the error will continue to stay for too long, it will be me how will
>> >have to go.
>> >Brion: You are welcome to come and go as you please.

>What is this? Sharp words of wit on the En:wiki mailing list?!
>The future is bright. :) -SV

If you say so.
But I didn't say the "If the error [...]" part.
^_^

-- Toby


from_name: Pedro M.V.

body:
Why they want these personal data ???.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "julien tayon" <julien at tayon.net>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] legal threat in eo wikipedia! / legxa minaco en la eo-Vikipedio

Le Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:09:07 +0100 (CET),
inspir?(e) Chuck Smith <msochuck at yahoo.com> ?crivait la plume alerte :
>
> Rough translation:  Dear sir, please communicate to me
> the adress(es) of who to send a letter by mail for you
> and for Mr. Brion Vibber, who are indicated as the
> ones responsible for the editing of this encyclopedia.
>  Please communicate the address, but also the complete
> name, of the person who uses the name, "Kricxjo".  If
> you don't respond, I will send through my lawyer a
> registered letter to your attention at the central
> office of UEA in Rotterdam.  You can answer the nicely
> requested information below.  Thanks in advance for
> your response.
[...]
First ask him a way to authenticate that this mail is really from him
(electronic signature, snail-mail with receipt, ID card in a real
meeting, ask him his personnal pone number check it in yellow pages, and
phone him back...). Unless, you can certify this is him, it is important
to be sure he is THE guy who he is claiming to be, so that you do not
give wikipedian real coordinate to someone else :)
But, he is quite stupid : it is fairly easy to find Brion's coordinates
without problem (google and whois are your friend for those who know how
to use them).

--
Julien Tayon
http://www.tayon.net/        http://libroscope.org/
Si la v?rit? est une femme, essayons de la s?duire avant de la saisir.
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Feature request

body:
This is important for disambiguations purposes. I prefer XXXX, (Mexico) than only XXXX city name. This could be in the name of articles guidelines.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt M." <matt_mcl at sympatico.ca>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 3:40 PM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Feature request

> Hi,
>
> I wonder if anyone else has thought of this, but while considering the pipe
> trick ([[foo (bar)|]] = [[foo (bar)|foo]]) it occurred to me that one of the
> places this would be most useful is in place names, a huge portion of which
> are in the form [[Boise, Idaho]]. If it could be set up so that the pipe
> trick could work with commas too ([[Boise, Idaho|]] = [[Boise,
> Idaho|Boise]]), that would be very useful in a variety of situations. (It
> wouldn't conflict with other uses of commas, since you just wouldn't have
> any reason to use the pipe trick with them; or if, say, something had both
> commas and parentheses, you could set it to just pipe the parentheses. If an
> article had multiple commas, you could set it to hide everything after the
> first one.)
>
> What do you think?
>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

body:
I like the TWiki system to create table ( we could import it here to wikipedit - wikipedia edition format - ).

One can use HTML to create tables, but use | it?s easy to create simple tables.

One would create a minimum common wiki format , for nearly all the wikis, including wikipedia and Twiki.

Now, I know why ones resist using anchors. Because # is used in wikipedit for numbered list ( in Twiki is for anchors and very usefull).

The problem with Indymedia is that this site is not GNU Free Documentation License (it?s open content). In this case, they would change it.

We would include indymedia like news source for http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_events

Regards.

----
Elabore caseramente biodiesel para su actual motor de gasoil petrol?fero
La soluci?n a sus problemas energ?ticos.

http://www.enlazando.com/energia
http://journeytoforever.org/energiaweb/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yann Forget" <yann at forget-me.net>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

Hi,

This already exists. It's called Indymedia : http://www.indymedia.org.

Yann

Le Dimanche 16 Mars 2003 09:33, Daniel Mayer a ?crit :
> Sheldon Rampton wrote:
> >I think we should go further still and shoot for the
> >ultimate goal of creating "Wikimedia." That's media
> >with an "m." It would use Wiki-style rules to enable
> >public participation in the creation and editing of all
> >kinds of media: encyclopedias and other reference
> >works, current news, books, fiction, music, video etc.
> >Like current broadcast media, it would have
> >differentiated "channels" and "programs," each with
> >self-selecting audiences. Unlike current media,
> >however, the audience would also be actively
> >involved in creating its own programming, instead
> >of merely passively watching it.

--
http://www.forget-me.net
Alternatives sur le Net
http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>; <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 9:33 AM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

> As a matter of fact this is one of the /big/ reasons for our success; many
> people are very interested in current events so they write encyclopedia
> articles that reflect this.

I think this would be an attention ( http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention)  principle : first the nowadays articles ( topics in the news).

For me, the attention principles would be :

1. General before particular ( specific ).
2. In the news topics before another ones ( this is over the 1st. principle, if necessary).

Regards.

Can we stablish any collaboration way or wikiformat with indymedia ???.


from_name: Tony Wilson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Rudeness oin list

body:
In a word, Zoe, no. Please take the trouble to READ my posts before you
misinterpret them in future.

Tony


references:
<Pine.GSO.4.33.0303101231250.18928-100000@aludra.usc.edu>
	<shof4ceghp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<sh3cloigal.fsf_-_@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20030316185459.GA10778@math-rs-n01.ucr.edu>

body:
Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> writes:

> I certainly hope that this one does not get "fixed".

If the error will continue to stay for too long, it will be me how will
have to go.

> I hope that someday PediaWiki will recognise a lack of blank line,
> not only next to headers but also next to lists, rules, etc,
> as indicating that a feature is next to (or within) the paragraph.

I guess you are talking about the next bug I want to go reporting :)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
== title ==
line
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

and

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
== title ==

line
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

must come out the same:

title

line

But the parser forget to eat spaces at the start and at the end of the
title line ("== title ==" -> "
 title
") and is does bad things
to the paragraph (the
 element).

Just make it a habit to produce XHTML and problems will vanish with a
sudden.

> Is your offline editor really unable to handle long lines?
> (I only remember emacs' being brought up,
> but I edit wiki files with emacs all the time.)

I'm using 'turn-on-auto-fill' and 'fill-column' (72 resp. 79) for text
mode and related modes.  And I use fill commands to make the text look
nice.

> In any case, these aren't bugs, but feature requests.

I'd rather rate these things as bugs.  Somewhere is the claim that
empty lines are paragraph separators.  The wiki-to-html converter does
not obey this rule.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] check in

body:
Should there be a check-in when a logged in user edits a page? Maybe on a 5
minute timer? -SV


subject: [Wikipedia-l] check in

body:
On Sun, 2003-03-16 at 21:55, Stevertigo wrote:
> Should there be a check-in when a logged in user edits a page? Maybe on a 5
> minute timer? -SV

Perhaps you'd best begin by explaining that a "check-in" would entail.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

body:
Also, it?s a personal decission say : I know about this and about that. What is more important for wikipedia ??.  Now I have clear what to do first ;)

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Saintonge" <saintonge at telus.net>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

> Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>
> > At 08:25 PM 3/16/03 +0100, Pedro wrote:
> >
> >> I think this would be an attention (
> >> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention)
> >> principle : first the nowadays articles ( topics in the news).
> >>
> >> For me, the attention principles would be :
> >>
> >> 1. General before particular ( specific ).
> >> 2. In the news topics before another ones ( this is over the 1st.
> >> principle, if necessary).
> >
> >
> > As a practical matter, lots of people are already doing this, but the
> > other significant
> > factor is that people will write about what they know and care about.
> > Once in a while
> > someone like me will take an hour to do online research for a quick
> > article on
> > something in the news (for example, I did a quick bio of the VP of
> > Venezuela when
> > he was briefly acting president), but I'm not suddenly an expert on
> > the history or
> > geography of Iraq.
> >
> > The beauty of Wikipedia is that it has room for people to follow lots
> > of different
> > interests, and sometimes that means that when something hits the news,
> > the
> > article is already there, written by someone who cared about that
> > enough to
> > write about it instead of about whatever was in the headlines that week.
>
> I support the sentiments in Vicki's observation.  If most of us ran our
> personal lives in the way we choose what to edit on Wikipedia we would
> all be in serious trouble.  "Always leave something undone" is a
> principle that works well in Wikipedia but not in one's personal life.
>  I've consistently believed that there was a fractal component to
> Wikipedia participation where all these seemingly random contributions
> when viewed as a whole show evidence of some unifying pattern.
>
> In an ideal world where our human resources are unlimited I would
> support Sheldon's proposal, but in our real world my support must
> remanin philosophical.  Each Wikipedia project competes with the others
> (including those in other languages) for human resources.  Whenever that
> happens each of us must make a decision about the allocation of the
> fixed number of hours that we have available.  This can be easy when we
> know nothing about the language of a new Wikipedia, or difficult when a
> new project relates significantly to our personal interests.  From my
> own perspective, I can only wish that Sheldon's new little Mendelbrot of
> current events will some day find the appropriate connection with the
> central structure.
>
> Eclecticology
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Saintonge" <saintonge at telus.net>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] legal threat in eo wikipedia! / legxa minaco en la eo-Vikipedio

Hey, I didn?t write it !!!------->>>

> Pedro M.V. wrote:
>
> >But, he is quite stupid : it is fairly easy to find Brion's coordinates
> >without problem (google and whois are your friend for those who know how
> >to use them).
> >
> Brion and Chuck may be easy to find, but that may not be the case for
> Kricxjo.
>
Regards.


from_name: Jesse Alter

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Recruits

body:
LittleDan, just try linking to Wikipedia articles whenever possible. I found a list of archaic words useful for an Ultima Online community, and whenever I am asked to help someone with research, Wikipedia is one of my first sources. I don't think it's wrong to introduce new things to people. Different people will react differently--some might become interested without becoming addicted.

<<<
How could I tell people about wikipedia without sounding like a nerd? I'm
trying to replace people's Warcraft addictions with Wikipeida (after all,
which one is worse?) but everyone says, "That's so stupid! How are you
addicted to an encyclopedia? You're a nerd!". What do I do? Is it wrong to
try to get someone addicted to something?

-LittleDan
>>>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] check in

body:
>Brion: Perhaps you'd best begin by explaining that a "check-in" would
entail.

A ''check in'' simply means an editing session where only one edit is
allowed at the same time.  Its regularly used for websites with multiple
developer/designers etc... and eliminates the potential problem of uploading
a file that overwrites changes made by another.

A wiki implementation of this would have to be fair: It should have
safeguards against page-hogging, by allowing perhaps a five minute window
maximum for an edit session. It could also have session scheduling for the
next editor, so someone who wishes to edit, but is blocked, can have a
minute or two after the previous editor saves.. to check in to and edit that
page. A simple timer, implemented as part of the interface, might be useful.
The session cookie of course, would handle who's who and what's what and
when is when... This is probably overkill...

Alot of this would be cause for the natural development of a client, and I
understand some modest work on that is being done, though its not clear
where such a client is in its dev, and what direction its taking... -SV


list: sifter-l

source: wayback-mbox

from_name: Simon Muzenda

subject: [Sifter-l] Urgent Assistance


body:
Le Sun, 16 Mar 2003 12:24:26 -0800,
inspir?(e) Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> ?crivait la plume alerte
:
> Pedro M.V. wrote:
> Jul wrote :
> >But, he is quite stupid : it is fairly easy to find Brion's
> >coordinates without problem (google and whois are your friend for
> >those who know how to use them).
> >
> Brion and Chuck may be easy to find, but that may not be the case for
> Kricxjo.
>
Christopher  you mean ?

(google is your friend and there this person that proposes selection on
a famous e-bookshop site which is very closed to the topics of the
articles of Kricxjo, it may not be him with a 25% probability )

No one is now anonymous on internet nowadays, the check will help
finding you, and if you are related to free software your name will
lighten the web like a big semaphor. Privacy, what a nice concept :P

> Ec

--
Julien Tayon
http://www.tayon.net/			       http://libroscope.org/
Si la v?rit? est une femme, essayons de la s?duire avant de la saisir.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Hunter Peress

subject: [Wikitech-l] really slow today. behaviour is innefficient. O(1) solution needed

body:
from the chatroom on irc where I always hangout, i believe I've picked up that the database is
being queried for serving current-articles. If so, wikipedia need sto cache (dump) out the current
versions of pages into file format so as to create the most minimal load possible. Its probably a
good idea too to dump out the edit page as well.

im [[user_talk:hfastedge]].

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

body:
> That would be too bad.
> But you're probably not going to get far calling it an "error",
> when people worked hard on the programming
> to get it to specifically do just what it does.

Actually, I wrote that code, and I think it would be better to
do it his way.  The only reason I didn't is that Usemod didn't,
and there's a lot of existing text that depends on the old
behavior.  But I agree that the old behavior is bad: line ends
should not be significant in wiki text, ever.  As it is, they
are not significant in ordinary paragraphs, but they are
significant within lists.  That's inconsistent and confusing.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikitech-l] <abbr>

body:
On Mon, 2003-03-17 at 03:41, Richard Grevers wrote:
> How come wikipedia doesn't support markup such as <abbr
> title="Sergeant">Sgt.</abbr>
> (It currently displays the raw HTML code)

That's HTML markup, Wikipedia is a wiki and uses wiki markup.

A limited subset of HTML markup is allowed, largely inherited from what
UseModWiki allowed, and mainly with the intent of providing visual
effects that we don't have a wiki way for (eg, tables).

What you're talking about is semantic markup, which is a trickier thing
by far.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Real stats! (Re: what's going on with
	wikipedia ?)

body:
On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 11:11, Giskart wrote:
> Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> wrote in
> > Ok, NL stats are up to date. (Note: there are missing chunks from 21-24
> > January and 17-20 February. Logs from those days appear to be lost...?)
>
> Thanks. Have you/can you/will you set it up so the stats are updateted
> automaticly every x hours / x days ?

Assuming I haven't screwed it up ;)  it should be rotating the logs and
updating the stats every night from here out.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] RK and [[Chipractic]]

body:
Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
> * "imporant facts that were deleted because Zoe was embarassed by them"
> * "Until Zoe learns NPOV"
> * "lying about facts that you are uncomfortable with"
> * "Stop pushing this pseudoscientific religious belief as some sort of
>   scientific fact."

RK reads this list, I think, so I'll just say this here: RK, comments
of this type are uncollegial and not very helpful.  It's really not a
good idea for us to jump to conclusions of this type.  Work with
others in a spirit of goodwill and mutual respect.

--Jimbo


body:
Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org> writes:

>>
title

>>

>>line
>>

>
> Why must they?

Because leaving out the initial
 is a hack and HTML coders are
pretty aware of it :)

> Is that an offer to work on the code?

Sorry, I'm not a coder/hacker.  I'm just a user and bug reporter and I
hope my reports are useful.  I can offer to work on the technical
documentation -- maybe I should start there.

>>I'm using 'turn-on-auto-fill' and 'fill-column' (72 resp. 79) for text
>>mode and related modes.  And I use fill commands to make the text look
>>nice.
>
> That makes sense when your editor is producing final text.

Maybe, I can work around these problems by my side.

> Where is the claim? Unless that's in our spec, it's not a bug. Certainly,
> you can't get your preferences installed and made high priority by asserting
> that it's a bug that the software isn't doing things that aren't in its design
> or specifications.

The bug is that some things are ambiguous; that bad because this makes
people change texts back and forth for layout purposes only.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


subject: [WikiEN-l] RK and [[Chipractic]]

in_reply_to: <E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280CF5E7@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>; from Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com on Mon, Mar 17, 2003 at 09:40:51AM -0500

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> However, as a proud member of another "dangerous religious cult", I
>feel chiropractic should be treated gently in the Wikipedia, not
>subject to tirades or POV venting. Let's just say that certain
>advocates are suspicious or dismissive of chiropractic's claims.

Right, well, I (like wikipedia) express no formal opinion on anything,
except to say that even people who support or are sharply critical
ought to be able to work together in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

--Jimbo


body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>The article on Activiste was put on my page by Francis. I thought that it
>would be, with maybe some little changes, a good definition of French people
>who called themselves activistes. Actually there is a controversy on the
>translation of the English "activiste" into French. I think it is usually
>translated as "militant", and that the English "militant" is translated into
>"activiste". But some people think that the French "militant" is to
>"passive", so they prefer the word "activiste".
>
What may be the case here is a that the relationships between the two
words has gone in opposite directions in the two languages.  In English
"activist" has the more passive connotations of being very involved.
 "Militant" is used much less frequently, and carries an image of people
ready for an armed uprising.

Eclecticology


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Current events

body:
On Monday 17 March 2003 04:00 am, Giskart wrote:
> Domain ID:D95346862-LROR
> Domain Name:WIKIMEDIA.ORG
> Created On:16-Mar-2003 08:22:47 UTC
> Expiration Date:16-Mar-2004 08:22:47 UTC
> Sponsoring Registrar:R52-LROR
> Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED
>
>
> That is fast. Who owns it?

I do - I'll transfer it to the Foundation as soon as it is set-up.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] LOTR intro's

body:
or:

'''Foo''' is a [[fiction]]al bar in  [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s ''[[The
Silmarillion]]''  ...

Richard Grevers wrote:

> I've just noticed* that back in December, Magnus Manske edited a bunch
> of newly added articles about characters and geopgraphical features
> from Tolkien's works by prefacing them with the explanatory note:
>
> ''The following information belongs to [[the Lord of the Rings]]
> [[fantasy]] [[novel]]''
>
> Which is of course much better than having no indication that the
> article refers to a work of fiction. However, many of the articles are
> actually about people and places from [[The Silmarillion]].
> So I was wondering if there is a preferred format for introducing
> articles about literary ephemera.
>
> My first attempt is along the lines of In ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' by
> [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] the '''foo''' is a...
>


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
Steve,

It's the TITLE that needs changing, i.e., the NAME of the topic.

The topic is not the point of view. The territory is not the map.

I suggest:
* leave the raw notes on Metawikipedia or on someone's Wikipedia talk page
* create an article with a bland name like [[Violence against Kurds]].

Didn't we settle the article names for Middle-eastern violence with article titles like [[Israeli attacks on Arabs]] or [[Terrorism against Israel]]?

The point is: we need to find a NAME for the topic with does not *in itself* present a point of view about the topic.

For example, the US "invaded" Afghanistan a couple of years ago. Whether that invasion was IN FACT an "attack" on a sovereign state is a debatable point. So the article was renamed "US invasion of Afghanistan".

Why? Because everyone, regardless of their POV, could agree that US forces did "invade", i.e., enter the borders without permission. When Saudi Arabia allowed US forces to use bases on their territory, no one said the US "invaded" Saudi Arabia.

The "US invasion of Afghanistan" article did discuss the legality or illegality on the invasion of Afghanistan, without coming to any conclusion that would justify the Wikipedia calling it an "attack on Afghanistan".

Please, Zoe, Steve, et al., let's try to find neutral-sounding names for articles.

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Stevertigo [mailto:stevertigo at attbi.com]
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:47 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

Zoe: "Although I agree that the subject deserves an article, any article with this title cannot be NPOV."

Your statements although brief, contain usually at least one assumption. 1. That the subject being 'deserving' of an article is even close to being in question, and that 2. such a thing cannot be NPOV, simply because its controversial. It is what it is. Turks in the late 90s killed far more Kurds than the Serb "Christians" were killing Croat Muslims. The US sanctioned, supported, and suppressed it. It further has relevance because the US reportedly was in the process of selling out the Kurds to Turkey again, striking a deal to allow Turkey dominion over certain sections in Northern Iraq that border Turkey.

As for Danny's assertion, which Jim seconded, that this is no place for notes, I don't see how some structured notes are any different than an article in formation. There are two ways of sculpting something: By building up, (like clay) or breaking down (like chipping a marble). Im speaking as an artist, of course, but the analogy is valid, I think.  Of course, provided work gets done to article-ize the page. Hence, time, which I did not have in abundance, while I was taking notes. Not that I dont understand the usual concerns.

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] a suggestion

body:
abhio at vsnl.net wrote:

> I really need to congratulate the guys who've worked their heads off on wikipedia and allowed people to share what they know best. I'm finding it really useful.
>But I felt that the real use of wikipedia only remains for net users and usually deal in detail on smaller topics. That would really not be enough to people who are seriously looking for stuff. Books in libraries would still be the best alternative.
>I felt by joining up articles from wiki that cover a certain topic and putting it together in the form of an e-book would be a great idea, with a continuity in thought and with more explanatory matter.
>And as and when these e-books improve in quality and content, I'm sure publishers would be keen to publish them as it helps cut on their development costs.
>Could the guys at wiki start something like this, it would really be useful!!
>
This sounds like a lot of work!  Are you volunteering?   :-)

Ec


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] [dwwidow2003@yahoo.com: Wikipedia]

body:
----- Forwarded message from Christine Thornton <dwwidow2003 at yahoo.com> -----

From: Christine Thornton <dwwidow2003 at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:27:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jwales at bomis.com
Subject: Wikipedia

Dear Sir,

I am the wife of David W. Thornton. I logged in to Wikipedia.org as "Lucie" on our computer under the User name, Black Widow . On my User Page, I clearly posted an official notice that I was the wife of User:DW.

Today, after posting much hard work, I received the following message when I tried to log in:

Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Maveric149. The reason given is this:
Alias of DW

You may contact Maveric149 or one of the other administrators to discuss the block.
 Sir, I would like to point out that this person calling him or her self Maverick149 has no proof or the statement he made as to any alleged alias. I searched your website and could find no official legal notice stating that you ban people from participating on your website on speculation or that you discriminate against wives / partners / friends / acquaintances etc. who may use our computer. Please advise why you authorized this discrimination. Sincerely yours. Christine Thornton, B.A., LL.B.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
----- End forwarded message -----


subject: [WikiEN-l] RK and [[Chipractic]]

body:
Actually, I have to agree with Robert on this one. Chiropractic _is_ a dangerous religious cult.

Like all cults, chiropractic mixes some good and some bad. The good part is that their practitioners are often better at fixing people's backs than the mainstream competition: what Western medicine calls, um, osteopathic surgery. When your back starts hurting suddenly, you think "chiropracter", not "emergency room".

The bad part is their utterly unproven and unprovable claim that proper alignment is a panacea. And their refusal to subordinate themselves to the medical establishment permits poorly trained specialists (quacks?) to flourish unchecked.

However, as a proud member of another "dangerous religious cult", I feel chiropractic should be treated gently in the Wikipedia, not subject to tirades or POV venting. Let's just say that certain advocates are suspicious or dismissive of chiropractic's claims.

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Zoe [mailto:zoecomnena at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 9:33 PM
To: WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] RK and [[Chipractic]]

RK has gone on a tirade against the [[Chiropratic]] article, and is trying to make it out to be a dangerous religious cult (yes, he has said that).  In my attempts at trying to make his changes more NPOV, he's accusing me of vandalism, the usual canard issued by anyone who disagrees with someone else's changes.

Would someone with another eye please view both RK's and my changes and let me know if I'm out of line?  I never had a particular point of view on the subject until seeing the attacks RK is making on it.

Zoe

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from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] check in

body:
> Should there be a check-in when a logged in user edits a page? Maybe on a 5
> minute timer? -SV

No, but a warning when you are editing simulatenously with someone else,
anon or not, would be helpful.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upgrade questions

body:
I'm in the process of trying to upgrade the scripts on my
Disinfopedia. Right now it's running the Wikipedia scripts which I
downloaded about three months ago. I'm having some trouble and would
appreciate answers to a few questions.

(1) My immediate *reason* for wanting to upgrade is that my web host
says the existing script "has driven the server load to unbearable
proportions and even caused the server to crash which required a
manual reboot." We got a significant upward spike in usage on Sunday,
which probably accounts for the problem. My first question is: Have
changes made during the past three months improved the efficiency of
the scripts in ways that might reduce the server load? If not, maybe
there's no need for me to upgrade the scripts at this time.

(2) I used CVS to install the new scripts at a temporary URL for
testing purposes, but I haven't been able to get them working. I
compared my current database schema to the schema in buildTables.sql,
and it looks like a number of changes have been made, including:

* In table "user," the field "user_newtalk" has been dropped.

* A table "user_newtalk" has been added.

* In table "cur," the fields "cur_ind_title" and "cur_ind_text" have
been dropped.

* In table "math," the field "math_html_conservative" has been
renamed to "math_html_conservativeness," and a new field
"math_mathml" has been added.

* A table "searchindex" has been added.

I'm assuming that these differences account for the failure of the
current scripts to run my existing database. I could use SQL queries
to add and delete the necessary fields, but I'm nervous about
screwing something up. What's the best way to proceed?

Mil gracias!
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Chris Mahan's inappropriate comments

body:
Please ask Chris Mahan to stop making false accusations
about me.  I do not like being wrongly accused of altering
other people's comments, and then being threatened with a
ban for the "sin" of having a different point of view than
a Sysop. That is a gross violation of Wiki Sysop
priviliges.

Chris Mahan writes:
> Maybe you should stick to writing scientific papers and
> leave WP to other, more cooperative people. (By the way,
> if you remove, alter, or misinterpret this comment,
> I'll email Jimbo and have you banned.) Christopher Mahan

Source: Talk:Chiropractic_medicine

So I am now banned if I misinterpret this threat? What kind
of twisted logic is that?

Note that this attack on me came in response to a
discussion on a topic of which he apparently has done no
reading; except for me (sadly!) mosy of the contributors
seem totally unfamiliar with the scientific literature.
(Why can't we get more contributors who study the
literature?)

Example of NPOV:  We don't let people ignorant of advanced
mathematics vandalise our articles by saying "This
mathemathical conjecture has been proven", when in fact the
conjecture has never been proven. Similarly, we should not
let alternative-health advocates imply that certain claims
have been proven true, when no scientific evidence exists.

When discussing the effectiveness of a proposed technique,
we are obligated by intellectual honesty (and NPOV) to
discuss the mainstream scientific consensus on the issue,
and explain why this consensus exists.  This is especially
true in cases where the proposed technique has been proven
to sometimes lead to spinal injury, strokes, and some
deaths.

(And again, remember that chirpractic medicine is NOT the
same as the more limited use of medical spinal
manipulation.)

RK

=====
"I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous".
The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upgrade questions

body:
On Mon, 2003-03-17 at 08:06, Sheldon Rampton wrote:
> My first question is: Have
> changes made during the past three months improved the efficiency of
> the scripts in ways that might reduce the server load? If not, maybe
> there's no need for me to upgrade the scripts at this time.

Yes, in several ways:
* Limited client-side caching (enabled for IE) reduces the number of
pages requested.
* Inverse timestamp index makes history list, diff, and user contribs
_not_ exceedingly slow.
* Moving search index to separate table should reduce lock pressure on
'cur' table.

> (2) I used CVS to install the new scripts at a temporary URL for
> testing purposes, but I haven't been able to get them working. I
> compared my current database schema to the schema in buildTables.sql,
> and it looks like a number of changes have been made, including:

You didn't run the update scripts!

See maintenance/patch-list.txt, and double-check that none have been
left off the list by mistake. ;)

Oh, and BACK UP YOUR DATABASE BEFORE PROCEEDING. As I'm sure you already
have...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] a suggestion

body:
On Mon, 2003-03-17 at 09:48, abhio at vsnl.net wrote:
> I felt by joining up articles from wiki that cover a certain topic and
> putting it together in the form of an e-book would be a great idea,
> with a continuity in thought and with more explanatory matter.
> And as and when these e-books improve in quality and content, I'm sure
> publishers would be keen to publish them as it helps cut on their
> development costs.

Sounds interesting, I look forward to your work on it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Andre Engels

body:
> > I'm using 'turn-on-auto-fill' and 'fill-column' (72 resp. 79) for text
> > mode and related modes.  And I use fill commands to make the text look
> > nice.
>
> Ah, you're an idiocyncratic line-breaker. You should know that if I had
> my way you'd be locked up. ;)
>
> Seriously, *your* ideal column width and *my* ideal column width are not
> always going to be the same. If your lines are longer than my edit box,
> I see ragged broken lines and text does *not* look nice. If your lines
> are shorter than my edit box, I see a lot of annoyingly short lines and
> text does *not* look nice. This has been an endemic problem for years in
> email and usenet, and I've no desire to see it in wiki.

Another disadvantage of line-wrapping is that in the search function, the
'context' information contains less information. Also, if an article gets
edited, the line length will be broken, unless the person doing the editing
is willing to spend quite a bit of time making things 'look nice' again
which isn't visible on the page at all - in which case the 'changes' page
is not going to do its function well. Not to mention that the 'changes' page
is already unusable when linebreaking is added or removed.

Andre Engels


subject: [WikiEN-l] Grinding to a halt?

body:
On Mon, 2003-03-17 at 10:00, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> I would really like for us to make a serious
> effort to speed up Wikipedia.

Please contribute concrete recommendations, better yet code, better yet
a second server. ;)
See http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_strategy & co

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Search engine disabled

body:
I've temporarily disabled the wiki's internal search engine on the
English Wikipedia; searches are directed to google with a site-specific
match.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi Anthere and others,

So to resume, there are two objections against Indymedia :
- biaised,
- not GNU FDL.
Is that right ?

However, I would not agree to include a news project within Wikipedia. An
encyclopedia needs some detachment, to stand back from current events, to be
able to analyse the facts.

On nuclear issues, I would be the happiest if there would be NPOV articles (I
mean scientific, on facts) on this subject. I think that people opinions in
favor of nuclear power is mostly because of lack of knowledge about the
subject. Well, that my opinion after 20 years of study of the question.
And the articles on this in the English wikipedia are quite good for me.

The article on Activiste was put on my page by Francis. I thought that it
would be, with maybe some little changes, a good definition of French people
who called themselves activistes. Actually there is a controversy on the
translation of the English "activiste" into French. I think it is usually
translated as "militant", and that the English "militant" is translated into
"activiste". But some people think that the French "militant" is to
"passive", so they prefer the word "activiste".

Regards,
Yann

Le Lundi 17 Mars 2003 00:43, Anthere a ?crit :

> > This already exists. It's called Indymedia :
> > http://www.indymedia.org.
> >
> > Yann
>
> I sure would not agree that wikipedia current news are
> given by indymedia. Though I support indymedia, I
> think they sure are to biaised to fit in the wikipedia
> frame. And on the fr wiki, that would likely be done
> by Yann.
>
> Excuse me here Yann, but though you are really a good
> wikipedian and did *great work* on the fr wikipedia, I
> hope you admit you have a rather strong biais, as can
> be seen in the nuclear-related articles . I sure hope
> that (with Francis maybe) you give us some good
> *neutral* articles on activism, anarchism and the
> such, but I'll tell you plain, articles such as the
> Activiste one that you wrote some time ago
> (http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Activiste&oldid=34251)
> are just way out of line. In particular the end of the
> article

--
http://www.forget-me.net
Alternatives sur le Net
http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA


from_name: Steven Retigan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Chris Mahan, RK, and Chiropractic

body:
I agreed with RK in a sense, about that page... but he was speaking (typing)
out of no less ignorance or real knowlege of the subject than Susan was...
RK showed some rare objectivity, due to his distance from the material, and
Susan continued to assert half baked notions of the subject without covering
the basics. Thats that. As far as Chris getting a little frustrated with
Robert... well... hes only human. Im sure you understand Sascha :) -SV

> Its not often that I see myself agreeing with RK (he can attest to that),
but
> I think that it is out of line for Chris Mahan to threaten RK with banning
if
> he misinterprets his comments. I have not engaged in the Chiropractic
> discussion at all, and this is just my $ 0.02.
>
> Sascha Noyes
> aka snoyes
>
> On Monday 17 March 2003 13:47, Robert wrote:
> > Please ask Chris Mahan to stop making false accusations
> > about me.  I do not like being wrongly accused of altering
> > other people's comments, and then being threatened with a
> > ban for the "sin" of having a different point of view than
> > a Sysop. That is a gross violation of Wiki Sysop
> > priviliges.
> >
> > Chris Mahan writes:
> > > Maybe you should stick to writing scientific papers and
> > > leave WP to other, more cooperative people. (By the way,
> > > if you remove, alter, or misinterpret this comment,
> > > I'll email Jimbo and have you banned.) Christopher Mahan
> >
> > Source: Talk:Chiropractic_medicine
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> > RK
> >
> >
> > =====
> > "I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person
who
> > knows he is righteous". The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh
Mi-Lublin,
> > 1745-1815]
> - --
> Please encrypt all correspondence.
> PGP key available from:
> http://individual.utoronto.ca/noyes/snoyes.asc
> - --
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQE+divHgzJdfX+cTW8RAjMkAJ9n23lg0nG1VE0+1cYV09Gf2iqJMQCgnLDE
> qqIYpeJGm91XTNn0NDS1R20=
> =dE7w
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Grinding to a halt?

body:
I would really like for us to make a serious
effort to speed up Wikipedia.

I know we have some wonderful features, but
if our database is too slow to accommodate
them, we have to:
* ditch the extra features,
* get a better database, or
* live with the slowness

I hate the slowness. I don't mind waiting up
to 10 seconds for a response, especially if
I'm doing something I *expect* to be slow, like
my watch list. But after 20 or 30 seconds I lose
patience.

To glance at an article, bring up the talk page,
and start editing the talk page is three separate
operations. If each one takes over 10 seconds,
that's half a minute of my life wasted.

N.B.: I don't begrudge the actual time spent
reading or writing article!!!

An impatient but avuncular Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: K Forstner [mailto:kurt.forstner at chello.at]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:08 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Grinding to a halt?

Over the past days and weeks, whenever I tried to access Wikipedia it either
hardly worked or didn't work at all. I've made a habit of clicking "Recent
changes" or "Older versions" and then get up and make myself a cup of tea or
something. When I come back I'm sometimes lucky but ever so often I'm not. I
know quite a number of people who'd be eager to contribute but they tell me
they are just fed up. Is there any hope in sight?

K Forstner (aka KF)


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
Ed, you have yet to convince me that the title is NPOV... I havent done anything with it yet.. Its not something I can find in Britannica - a paragon of 'NPOV' everywhere. What title would you suggest? Im *very interested your  answer. -SV
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Search engine disabled

body:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> Is this related to performance?
>
> If so, please find a way to *measure* the effect of this change on
> performance. We need to know what *works* and what doesn't, in terms
> of speeding up response time.

Naturally. I wrote a quick script to analyse the wiki's logfile for the
two hours before and the two hours after making the change.

  Before cutoff: 24725 pages served, runtime 107828.414 seconds
  That's 3.43402777777778pages/sec served
  At avg time per page of 4.36110875631951

  After cutoff: 34177 pages served, runtime 69344.0659999999 seconds
  That's 4.74680555555556pages/sec served
  At avg time per page of 2.0289687801738

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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$intime  = "20030317173000";
$cutoff  = "20030317193000";
$outtime = "20030317213000";

$first = "999999999999999";
$last = "0";

while( $x = <> ) {
	if( $x =~ /^(\d{14})\s*([\d.]+)\s*(\/\S*)/ ) {
		($timestamp, $runtime, $url) = ($1, $2, $3);
		next if( $timestamp < $intime );
		next if( $timestamp > $outtime );
		if( $timestamp <= $cutoff ) {
			$beforecount++;
			$beforetime += $runtime;
			$first = $timestamp if( $timestamp < $first );
		} else {
			$aftercount++;
			$aftertime += $runtime;
			$last = $timestamp if( $timestamp > $last );
		}
	}
}

print "($intime) $first |$cutoff| $last ($outtime)\n";

print "Before cutoff: $beforecount pages served, runtime $beforetime seconds\n";
print "That's " . ($beforecount/7200) . "pages/sec served\n";
print "At avg time per page of ". ($beforetime / $beforecount). "\n";
print "\n";
print "After cutoff: $aftercount pages served, runtime $aftertime seconds\n";
print "That's " . ($aftercount/7200) . "pages/sec served\n";
print "At avg time per page of ". ($aftertime / $aftercount). "\n";


subject: [WikiEN-l] donations (was: Search engine disabled)

body:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Sascha Noyes wrote:
> Any plans on setting up facilities for accepting donations. There could be a
> link on every page to such a donation page, which in due time could pay for a
> second machine. I know I'd donate.

I assume this has been held off until there's an actual legal entity to
receive the donations. Jimbo, any news on the non-profit front?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Christopher Mahan

body:
Robert,

I apologize for the tone of my comment and I did not want to imply
that you had modified other people's comments. It is just that from
bitter experience I sometimes feel the need to pepper my writings.

So you know I am not a sysop.

Also, in the spirit of cooperation I need you to look at your own
attitude about your contribution to the P. Please do not think this
as an accusation of any sort, but rather as an exhortation to temper
your approach to fit the collaborative nature of this medium.

I had a conversation with a friend at a party last saturday, and he
said that he had looked at the P a cople of times, but had been
disappointed by the quality of some of the articles. I explained to
him that the P was not authoritative in any respect and that it was
more of an experiment in collaborative work than anything else, but
one that might, in the long run, and because of its open nature,
ultimately become authoritative because it is edited by many more
eyes than regular encyclopedias.

--- Robert <rkscience100 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Please ask Chris Mahan to stop making false accusations
> about me.  I do not like being wrongly accused of altering
> other people's comments, and then being threatened with a
> ban for the "sin" of having a different point of view than
> a Sysop. That is a gross violation of Wiki Sysop
> priviliges.
>
>
> Chris Mahan writes:
> > Maybe you should stick to writing scientific papers and
> > leave WP to other, more cooperative people. (By the way,
> > if you remove, alter, or misinterpret this comment,
> > I'll email Jimbo and have you banned.) Christopher Mahan
>

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
>Ed:What's not neutral? [[Turks and Kurds]] ? That's as neutral as you can
get. I can't figure out what point of view an article >called "Turks and
Kurds" could possibly express. So I recommend it as neutral. I would also
say that [[Violence against >Kurds]] could be neutral, as well.

[[Turks and Kurds]], eh? Wow, that's *clear... So, expanding on the tone of
[[Turks and Kurds]], perhaps: [[Turk and Kurd relations:From cordial
handshakes to ethnic cleansing]]... Lets say not. *Violence is better - at
least it *says someting.. but its unfitting...

You seem to be saying that the word "atrocity" somehow cannot neutral, that
one's genocide is another's *military campaign.. but I dont buy it.
*Atrocity is as neutral a term you can get. It describes the killing and
torture of human biengs, from the Japanese raping little of girls and
hanging their parents by their tongues in Nanjing, to the use of Palestinian
refugee camps for target practice... its all the same.. The only reason
people feel squeamish in using the term "atrocity" is because they know its
*Not POV: Rather its a term that can be equally applied to everyone... So...
the carpet bombing and napalm-spraying of Vietnam, killing an unknown number
of the 1.6 --- 3.1M VN people killed between '65-'75, could also be called
an "atrocity" - so could the droppings of fatman and littleboy be considered
"atrocities" as well. This is not to say that there wasnt *justification for
each of these... just that the pain and suffering inflicted by human beings
upon other human beings is describable, without any pretext of injustice...
How can the killing of 1M people in any way be *justified? Its beyond the
issue of *justification, just as are the perpetrators are themselves,
moreoften than not, beyond *justice... An atrocity is what it is..
atrocious. -SV


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Search engine disabled

body:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2003, Richard Grevers wrote:
> And if Google found out about this, how happy will they be?
> If I found out that someone was using my resources to run their search
> facility, I'd either want to send them a nice big bill for that or purge
> them from my database

Oh yes, I'm sure they *hate* having more eyeballs see the advertisements
in their search results.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Grinding to a halt?

body:
Taku made a suggestion I've been mulling over:

Can we find out how much performance is affected
by checking for broken links?

I personally don't care most of the time whether
a link is "real" or "broken". It's only when I'm
actively editing an article that I need to know this.

And anyway, isn't there a way to CACHE some of
this real/broken info in my browser?

Take what I did yesterday, on one of my rare weekend
editing sessions. I was trying to straighten out
links and naming for a few of the recent mikado
(i.e., Japanese emperors). I kept having to refresh
the page to check whether certain links were present,
simply because I couldn't remember. But I bet my
browser knew.

Anyway, before I go off half-cocked, let me ask this:

What percent of processor time (or disk access time
or whatever) goes into maintaining the redness or
blueness of all those links?

A) If it's a tiny percentage, then forget I ever posted
   this (return from interrupt!)
B) If it's more than half, I'd say we better look into
   this.

Give the user an option to turn off broken-link-checking,
when they so choose? Only if it would remove an
appreciable amount of load from the server.

----

Sorry, but I didn't have time to polish this draft
(time is pressing), but I hope you get the idea: look
for where the bulk of the time goes, and try to reduce
that time expenditure.

Uncle Ed
Lazy Developer, Wikipedia


subject: [WikiEN-l] Search engine disabled

body:
Is this related to performance?

If so, please find a way to *measure* the effect of this change on performance. We need to know what *works* and what doesn't, in terms of speeding up response time.

Lazy Uncle

-----Original Message-----
From: Brion Vibber [mailto:brion at pobox.com]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:48 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Search engine disabled

I've temporarily disabled the wiki's internal search engine on the
English Wikipedia; searches are directed to google with a site-specific
match.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: Search engine disabled

body:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2003, Richard Grevers wrote:
> > Oh yes, I'm sure they *hate* having more eyeballs see the advertisements
> > in their search results.
> >
> But google searches on a single domain don't seem to trigger any
> advertisements - neither a serious search like "hundred years' war" or a
> likely ad-keyword such as "golf".

You're not looking very hard -- I see four ads with a search for "golf"
and one for "hundred years' war". (Note though that the appearance of ads
may vary from hit to hit.)

Anyway, I've gone ahead and signed us up for their Free WebSearch and
SiteSearch, so it's all official and we get our logo at the top of the
results page (ooooh!)

See: http://www.google.com/services/free.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Sascha Noyes

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Its not often that I see myself agreeing with RK (he can attest to that), but
I think that it is out of line for Chris Mahan to threaten RK with banning if
he misinterprets his comments. I have not engaged in the Chiropractic
discussion at all, and this is just my $ 0.02.

Sascha Noyes
aka snoyes

On Monday 17 March 2003 13:47, Robert wrote:
> Please ask Chris Mahan to stop making false accusations
> about me.  I do not like being wrongly accused of altering
> other people's comments, and then being threatened with a
> ban for the "sin" of having a different point of view than
> a Sysop. That is a gross violation of Wiki Sysop
> priviliges.
>
> Chris Mahan writes:
> > Maybe you should stick to writing scientific papers and
> > leave WP to other, more cooperative people. (By the way,
> > if you remove, alter, or misinterpret this comment,
> > I'll email Jimbo and have you banned.) Christopher Mahan
>
> Source: Talk:Chiropractic_medicine
>

<snip>

> RK
>
>
> =====
> "I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who
> knows he is righteous". The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin,
> 1745-1815]
- --
Please encrypt all correspondence.
PGP key available from:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/noyes/snoyes.asc
- --
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE+divHgzJdfX+cTW8RAjMkAJ9n23lg0nG1VE0+1cYV09Gf2iqJMQCgnLDE
qqIYpeJGm91XTNn0NDS1R20=
=dE7w
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
> Ya know, I feel I'm being pulled into the Twilight Zone here. What is the
actual problem we are trying to solve, Steve?

Dude! Its all just school in summertime to you isnt it? -;) -SV


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #212 - 14 msgs

body:
Not only that, but it doesn't differntiate between a character string in a title and a character string in an article.  And it includes postings to the mailing list, which we may not want to publicize.
Zoe
 Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:> If the search feature is slowing down the site, I think using Google
> would be a satisfactory permanent alternative. We've been using it
> for years at the PR Watch web site, with no complaints.

I'm very much against this. Having search results in realtime is of
crucial importance for serious article work to avoid duplicates. The
Google spider only comes ever so often and misses a lot. PR Watch is one
thing, Wikipedia is a couple orders of magnitude bigger, though. As a
very, very temporary hack, the Google search is fine. But we need to get
the realtime search (with wikisource no less!) back up and running ASAP.

If we have to disable critical features to keep the site running, we may
as well disable editing altogether until we have raised enough money to
buy a bigger server and/or hire developers.

As for optimization, there are still a few things we need to do, but we
also have to keep in mind that a single server is now running all language
Wikipedias + meta, and all of them are growing fast (faster now that
Google indexes us again). I hope we have the nonprofit setup soon, and if
we can't get it setup, we should start raising donations without an
organization. Kuro5hin raised 35000 dollars in a few days -- I'm not sure
if we can get that high, but we should certainly try.

Regards,

Erik
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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body:
> Any plans on setting up facilities for accepting donations. There could be
a
> link on every page to such a donation page, which in due time could pay
for a
> second machine. I know I'd donate.

"Facilities" would mean an NPO.. a the Wikimedia Foundation which  Mav
(Daniel2) registered a while ago. I dont think that a link on every page
(Donate) is a good idea. A link to the foundation might be... -SV


body:
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On Monday 17 March 2003 14:48, Brion Vibber wrote:
> I've temporarily disabled the wiki's internal search engine on the
> English Wikipedia; searches are directed to google with a site-specific
> match.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Any plans on setting up facilities for accepting donations. There could be a
link on every page to such a donation page, which in due time could pay for a
second machine. I know I'd donate.

Sascha Noyes
aka snoyes
- --
Please encrypt all correspondence.
PGP key available from:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/noyes/snoyes.asc
- --
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE+dkKigzJdfX+cTW8RAuy6AJwO2lJBEEw5YSlayyH+cavBCPE5lQCeLk22
5DyJoeAVCmodp3RwN+22v2g=
=wlD3
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Test suite:input requested

body:
The test suite is coming along nicely, and I'm now to the point of
just filling in each test case.  There's one part I'm working on now
that just reads pages, makes sure their HTML parses, and then does a
few simple regular expression matches on the output.  Right now it
just looks for things like DOCTYPE, the META ROBOTS tag, the DIVs,
and such, and looks for the absence of things like <FONT and
onclick=.

Help me fill out these two lists with lots of good output tests:
i.e., tell me what you would expect to see on every page, and
what you would not want to see on any page (preferably as a regular
expression, but if you can just describe in words, I can code it).

I'm copying this to the list at large, because I think non-techies
will be able to help here as well.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [Wikitech-l] Test suite:input requested


subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
What's not neutral? [[Turks and Kurds]] ? That's as neutral as you can get. I can't figure out what point of view an article called "Turks and Kurds" could possibly express. So I recommend it as neutral.

I would also say that [[Violence against Kurds]] could be neutral, as well.

Are we talking about the same thing?

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Stevertigo [mailto:stevertigo at attbi.com]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:07 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

Ed, you have yet to convince me that the title is NPOV... I havent done anything with it yet.. Its not something I can find in Britannica - a paragon of 'NPOV' everywhere. What title would you suggest? Im *very interested your  answer. -SV

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Search engine disabled

body:
Brian,

If you cut page time from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, then it sounds like you cut performance time by 60% merely by letting Google do our searching! Way to go!!

Uncle Ed


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] re: Search engine disabled

body:
If this is going to be a semi-perminant thing, why don't we make it so the
search button on wikipedia goes directly to google?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
"Methinks he doth protest too much."

Steve, do I have to talk in surfer slang to get you to chill out for a minute?

Dude! Chill!

I never said "atrocity" could not be neutral. I am just saying that bland titles work better in many cases.

Does Wikipedia have any of the following articles?
* [[Japanese war crimes]] -- not yet, I'd guess
* [[Rape of Nanking]] -- maybe, although it might only be a book review
* [[carpet bombing]] -- should be on the technique, who invented it, and examples of its use, e.g., US in Vietnam

I doubt that even an article called [[atrocity]] would be easy to write, although the _title_ seems neutral enough.

Ya know, I feel I'm being pulled into the Twilight Zone here. What is the actual problem we are trying to solve, Steve?

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Stevertigo [mailto:fofisiks at attibi.com]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 5:32 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

>Ed:What's not neutral? [[Turks and Kurds]] ? That's as neutral as you can
get. I can't figure out what point of view an article >called "Turks and
Kurds" could possibly express. So I recommend it as neutral. I would also
say that [[Violence against >Kurds]] could be neutral, as well.

[[Turks and Kurds]], eh? Wow, that's *clear... So, expanding on the tone of
[[Turks and Kurds]], perhaps: [[Turk and Kurd relations:From cordial
handshakes to ethnic cleansing]]... Lets say not. *Violence is better - at
least it *says someting.. but its unfitting...

You seem to be saying that the word "atrocity" somehow cannot neutral, that
one's genocide is another's *military campaign.. but I dont buy it.
*Atrocity is as neutral a term you can get. It describes the killing and
torture of human biengs, from the Japanese raping little of girls and
hanging their parents by their tongues in Nanjing, to the use of Palestinian
refugee camps for target practice... its all the same.. The only reason
people feel squeamish in using the term "atrocity" is because they know its
*Not POV: Rather its a term that can be equally applied to everyone... So...
the carpet bombing and napalm-spraying of Vietnam, killing an unknown number
of the 1.6 --- 3.1M VN people killed between '65-'75, could also be called
an "atrocity" - so could the droppings of fatman and littleboy be considered
"atrocities" as well. This is not to say that there wasnt *justification for
each of these... just that the pain and suffering inflicted by human beings
upon other human beings is describable, without any pretext of injustice...
How can the killing of 1M people in any way be *justified? Its beyond the
issue of *justification, just as are the perpetrators are themselves,
moreoften than not, beyond *justice... An atrocity is what it is..
atrocious. -SV

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Thanks, Brian. One hand washes another.

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Brion Vibber [mailto:vibber at aludra.usc.edu]

Anyway, I've gone ahead and signed us up for their Free WebSearch and
SiteSearch, so it's all official and we get our logo at the top of the
results page (ooooh!)

See: http://www.google.com/services/free.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Brion Vibber

>I've temporarily disabled the wiki's internal search engine on the
>English Wikipedia; searches are directed to google with a site-specific
>match.

If the search feature is slowing down the site, I think using Google
would be a satisfactory permanent alternative. We've been using it
for years at the PR Watch web site, with no complaints.

Google opened their APIs up for public use awhile ago. I haven't
looked at them, but perhaps there's some way it could be used to lash
together a search feature that would simultaneously search several
Wikis all at once.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: K Forstner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Grinding to a halt?

body:
Over the past days and weeks, whenever I tried to access Wikipedia it either
hardly worked or didn't work at all. I've made a habit of clicking "Recent
changes" or "Older versions" and then get up and make myself a cup of tea or
something. When I come back I'm sometimes lucky but ever so often I'm not. I
know quite a number of people who'd be eager to contribute but they tell me
they are just fed up. Is there any hope in sight?

K Forstner (aka KF)


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New bug concerning lists

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>But you're probably not going to get far calling it an "error",
>>when people worked hard on the programming
>>to get it to specifically do just what it does.

>Actually, I wrote that code, and I think it would be better to
>do it his way.

I was actually referring to the behaviour near headers.

>The only reason I didn't is that Usemod didn't,
>and there's a lot of existing text that depends on the old
>behavior.  But I agree that the old behavior is bad: line ends
>should not be significant in wiki text, ever.  As it is, they
>are not significant in ordinary paragraphs, but they are
>significant within lists.  That's inconsistent and confusing.

I've already described how *I* would like them to be significant.

-- Toby


body:
> From: Christine Thornton <dwwidow2003 at yahoo.com>
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^

Looks like a troll. But if she wants to play, let her -- lift the IP ban
until she breaks our rules.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

references:
<Pine.GSO.4.33.0303101231250.18928-100000@aludra.usc.edu>
	<shof4ceghp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<sh3cloigal.fsf_-_@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20030316185459.GA10778@math-rs-n01.ucr.edu>
	<sh3clnf5xt.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20030316213602.GA11391@math-rs-n01.ucr.edu>

body:
Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> writes:

> But you're probably not going to get far calling it an "error",
> when people worked hard on the programming
> to get it to specifically do just what it does.

Okay, it's not a programming bug.

> Of course, the <p> is irrelevant in HTML 4 --
> by HTML specs, they *must* be rendered the same by the browser --

As we know they do not.  Thus let's less ambiguous HTML code as
possible.

> which is why people worked on getting different CSS as well.
> (When we go to XHTML, where the initial <p> will be required,
> then presumably we'll have to rely on the CSS for everything.)

This would be a good thing -- without CSS all things are non-fancy and
thus usable ofr simple browsers and audio devices and for fancy things
the reader can choose from some CSS stylesheets.

If you don't agree with me, that's also okay :)

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


body:
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> writes:

First: thanks for your work!

> As it is, they are not significant in ordinary paragraphs, but they
> are significant within lists.  That's inconsistent and confusing.

Thanks for confirmation.  Hopefully in the long and not so long run we
can do something to improve the situation!

Best,
Karl

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


references:
<Pine.GSO.4.33.0303101231250.18928-100000@aludra.usc.edu>
	<shof4ceghp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<sh3cloigal.fsf_-_@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<20030316185459.GA10778@math-rs-n01.ucr.edu>
	<sh3clnf5xt.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<1047852566.16032.57.camel@frank.vibber.org>

body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> writes:

> Thank you for volunteering to rewrite the parser to consistently produce
> correct XHTML. Right?

No, I'm not a hacker :)  Feeding stuff thru tidy/untidy can do wonders...

> Seriously, *your* ideal column width and *my* ideal column width are not
> always going to be the same. If your lines are longer than my edit box,
> I see ragged broken lines and text does *not* look nice. If your lines
> are shorter than my edit box, I see a lot of annoyingly short lines and
> text does *not* look nice. This has been an endemic problem for years in
> email and usenet, and I've no desire to see it in wiki.

There is some truth in your statement.  But: for editing purposes
jumping line length don't hurt that much (Emacs hat M-q to work around
those problems...) and more important I simply depend on broken
lines -- grep, sed and awk work best on those line.

And don't tell me a webbrowser's built-in editor is a proper tool to
write articles ;)

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Caching Special Pages

body:
Hello,

because of the load, the special pages produce, some of them are
disabled during 14:00 and 2:00 UTC. Unfortunaly only one of the pages is
working with a cache-file (wantedpages). And for most (europe) users the
pages are only avalible in the early morning or during working hours.

First of all I though about writing some patches for enabeling caching
for the other pages too, but after some time I thought about some more
possibilities. And I think it will helps to discuss them before starting
  coding for the paperbasket.

1. We hope that the serverload will be better sometime, and the scripts
(sql-queries) will be so fast that we don't need any caching and every
byte is wasted. I don't think so.

2. We use the current system, and add it to some more pages. This will
at least have the advantage to have a information about lonlypages,
shortpages, ... even if it in the worst case 12 hours old. It's possibly
fast to get, because the code is at hand and only some copy and paste is
needed.

3. We assume that we can make the queries better, but they still will
need a lot of time to run and preventing running some of them in
parallel is what we want. Then I think a system filling the cache of
these pages in regular intervals is needed. The queries will run every
half hour or so, and every user get the cached output.

I expect your comments,
Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------