subject: [Foundation-l] gnnnnaaaa

body:
>On 8/29/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:>> gnaaaaaaaaa....>> >> I *knew* it :-(((((>errr, it says you're administrator of the list ;-). So let it through.>:P>Delphine

Not from my job place.
Well, since we are thinking of 5 years in the future, it can wait a couple of hours.

But why is my yahoo sending raw mail from my home and html from my job place ?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] gnnnnaaaa


list: wikien-l

from_name: Nick Boalch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please remove me from mailing list

body:
Christopher Larberg wrote:
> Should we maybe consider making the e-mail footer more explicit?
> Perhaps, "go to the site linked above to unsubscribe" or something like
> that? A number of other mailing lists have a "To unsubscribe" section in
> their footers, and it seems the current one used for Wikimedia mailing
> lists isn't informative enough, as I've seen numerous "please
> unsubscribe me" mails sent directly to the lists. Just a thought.

The list does set List-Unsubscribe:, but it's reasonably clear that not
every reader knows about it (or has a helpful MUA).

Cheers,

N.

--
Nicholas Boalch
School of Modern Languages & Cultures       Tel: +44 (0) 191 334 3420
University of Durham                        Fax: +44 (0) 191 334 3421
New Elvet, Durham DH1 3JT, UK               WWW: http://nick.frejol.org/


from_name: Phroziac

body:
like "plz read!!!!!!!!!"?

On 8/29/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Christopher Larberg wrote:
> > Should we maybe consider making the e-mail footer more explicit?
> > Perhaps, "go to the site linked above to unsubscribe" or something like
> > that? A number of other mailing lists have a "To unsubscribe" section in
> > their footers, and it seems the current one used for Wikimedia mailing
> > lists isn't informative enough, as I've seen numerous "please
> > unsubscribe me" mails sent directly to the lists. Just a thought.
>
> I'm fairly certain that mailman can be set to moderate anyone who posts
>  a message with subjects that match certain things...
>
> - --
> Alphax                      |   /"\
> Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
> OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
> http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFDEwaH/RxM5Ph0xhMRA6DDAJ0XOk3pExbQOwIeOWK6PSU4QfmCkgCeLA1Z
> /N1aWOvUYQ1y21zDShNSdHU=
> =7Tjz
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: El C

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>Having frequently engaged in such pedantic drivel myself, I can
perfectly understand what you say.

>Unfortunately, sometimes "a cigar is only a cigar".

>Ec

I realize that one-liners are key in this medium, Eclecticology, but
utmost concision often proves constricting.

I appreciate the helpful tone, though.

El_C


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
El C wrote:

>>We agree its good to keep the moral highground, but my moral
>>
>>
>highground *isn't situational --call it "abstract ideals" if you like.
>
>Everyone has ideals, only the most narrow-minded, agenda-driven of
>minds consider the basis for these to be limited to... shal we say,
>situational isolationism.
>
>The issue isn't with the ideals (abstract or otherwise), but rather,
>to whenever there is a risk for these to serve merely as a pretext for
>a highly a *selective* approach, one wherein these ideals are
>juxtaposed, transposed, and superimposed to any concrete case in an
>un-balanced, inaccurate, and un-objective way.
>
>Rationality goes hand in hand with relationality. Unfortunately,
>empathy often isn't enough to bring a sympathy which is balanced, be
>it for those absorbed in abstract ideals, petty proceduralism, or
>both. The forest *and* the tress, in other words. Either one, in
>itself, is obviously insufficient and self-defeating.
>
Having frequently engaged in such pedantic drivel myself, I can
perfectly understand what you say.

Unfortunately, sometimes "a cigar is only a cigar".

Ec


list: wikitech-l

from_name: ravi

subject: [Wikitech-l] extension for acronym/abbrev tooltip + glossary link

body:
hello,

apologies if this is the wrong list to post/discuss this (i read through
the mailing lists wiki page and this one seems to be the most suitable).

after not finding the functionality (acronym tooltip + glossary link)
that i was looking for in mediawiki (including extensions) i would like
to add an extension that supports the below:

1. provide a tag to markup an acronym/abbreviation: when moused over,
    a tooltip will be displayed (using the 'title' html attribute) that
    provides the expansion of the acronym.

2. additionally, if a glossary page is specified then the text is linked
    to the relevant section of that page. alternatively, if a page with
    the acronym as its title is present, the text is linked to that page.

with regards to this idea, i have a set of questions:

1. is this already done/possible?

assuming, not:

2. is it possible to use wiki markup rather than an HTML tag:
    {{gl|XML}} or some such, rather than <gl>XML</gl>
    would i do this using templates plus the extension?

3. the acronym list needs to be stored somewhere, either implicitly
    in the glossary page or externally. one possible location is the
    MySQL DB. is modifying the DB (for extension dev) frowned upon?

comment:

feature item #2 (glossary/page link) perhaps is better left to regular
wiki markup (since it can already be done that way)...

any thoughts or comments appreciated!

	--ravi


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikitech-l] DE full xml dump is corrupt

body:
DE full xml dump 20050713_pages_full.xml.gz is corrupt

So last usable dump is 1.4 file 20050623_old_table.sql.gz ?

Do we still see dumps as a contingeny measure?

If worst comes to worst and all live db servers get corrupted (we got very
close to that at least once),
do we ask "Would all contributors on de: please reapply the edits they made
in the last 2 months?"

Suggestion: maybe the dump job could scan a completed dump file for
</mediawiki> and alert when missing?
This will detect aborted dumps.

Erik Zachte

The DE dump file ends with

A database error has occurred
Query: SELECT old_flags,old_text  FROM `text`  WHERE old_id='3538710'  LIMIT
1
Function: Database::selectRow
Error: 2006 MySQL server has gone away (10.0.0.101)

Backtrace:
GlobalFunctions.php line 424 calls wfbacktrace()
Database.php line 395 calls wfdebugdiebacktrace()
Database.php line 345 calls databasemysql::reportqueryerror()
Database.php line 712 calls databasemysql::query()
Database.php line 731 calls databasemysql::select()
HistoryBlob.php line 207 calls databasemysql::selectrow()
Revision.php line 464 calls historyblobstub::gettext()
SpecialExport.php line 400 calls revision::getrevisiontext()
SpecialExport.php line 326 calls wikiexporter::dumprev()
SpecialExport.php line 292 calls wikiexporter::outputstream()
SpecialExport.php line 225 calls wikiexporter::dumpfrom()
dumpBackup.php line 61 calls wikiexporter::allpages()
dumpBackup.php line 135 calls backupdumper::dump()


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Legal paranoia

body:
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:

>> From: Anthony DiPierro <wikispam at inbox.org>
>>
>> Even then there is relatively little incentive for a traditional
>> encyclopedia to attack Wikipedia in the first place.
>
> I agree, but this assumes that the attacker is a) well-informed, b)
> rational, c) primarily interested in his own business interests. My
> personal interpretation is that the SCO business shows that this is
> not always true.

I would never start from the position that our potential opponents are
poorly informed.  Underestimating your enemy is a  convenient way of losing.

There is nothing you can do to prevent lawsuits from those who want to
act irrationally short of acting irrationally yourself.

If SCO's objective is to profit through litigating for license fees then
their strategy is correct.  A correct strategy does not imply that you
will always win.  It is correct strategy to be a pair of aces in the
hole, but there are times when it doesn't work.  We don't know how many
smaller companies received legal letters from the SCO attorneys, and
were satisfied to pay a $10,000 license fee to avoid litigation.  It
wouldn't be consistent with SCO's interests to go after the likes of
Wikimedia because there is no financial reward to be gained; a simple
injunction would not be enough to make the litigation worthwhile.  Now
they've gone all in against the big boys; it's a rational poker strategy.

>> Besides, the support would come pouring in from all over
>> the place.  We'd probably get plenty of legal support donated to us.
>
> Agreed. And that sort of thing probably helped get Dmitri Sklyarov
> out of jail. But my point is, he was _in_ jail for a couple of months.

Jail is not a factor unless the copyright infringement is wilful.  Any
reasonable good-faith argument that our use is fair is enough to prevent
that possibility.

>> in a case like this where we're
>> actually in the right, the support would be tremendous.
>
>> The only reason we should even consider backing down on this is if
>> there's a serious legal argument that keeping this list would somehow
>> taint the rest of the encyclopedia.  I highly doubt this is true, but
>> I'm not a lawyer, and if a lawyer says this is plausible it's
>> something we should look at hard.
>
>
> The context of my comments was Jimmy Wales' comment in regard to the
> Encarta list:
>
> >Opinions of our legal team are
> >divided about the issue,.
>
> Lawyers looked at it and said _they weren't sure._ This is a
> discussion about what a prudent persons does when the lawyers say
> _they're not sure._ You can interpret this to mean: "They're not sure
> there's a problem, so let's not worry about it, and certainly lets
> not worry about a list of _Britannica_ articles, or a _modified_ list
> of Encara articles. Or you can interpret this to mean "That means
> they're not sure this is OK so let's back away a bit?"
>
> When the lawyers say they're not sure, the question is whether the
> glass is half prudent or half paranoid,

It also means that reasonable doubt is in our favour.

>> But otherwise, if it's just a list, I don't see the problem.  The
>> worst reasonable case scenario is that we have to take it down.
>
> I think _that's_ a very good point.

It's a key point.  A reasoned position that a particular entry is fair
use should be enough to carry us to the point where we receive a take
down order. We should only need to consider the cost effectiveness of
litigation if we choose to oppose the take down order.  The irony with
the Britannica material is that by the time we receive a take down order
for that list there may be nothing left to take down.  The progress in
absorbing that material has been that fast. :-)

>> A long drawn out legal battle; a chance to set a precedent that can be
>> used in the future; that'd probably be a good thing.
>
> And that's where I part company with you. I am interested in helping
> to write an encyclopedia, not help fight in long drawn out legal
> battles.

I at least agree insofar as we don't go looking for fights, but there
are times when we need to stand up for what we believe.  Nevertheless,
one of the factors in choosing our battles should be whether that battle
serves our greater purpose.


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of insecure egos...

body:
On 8/29/05, Ben E. <bratsche1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> What do you mean by this? Would you like an admin to clean up your user/user
> talk pages? Or do you have another request?

I'd like the policy explained and appropriate action taken. My
understanding is that I'm allowed to edit my own talk page, even when
blocked, but it seems that one particular admin is unaware of this,
and when I cleared it, leaving a message of thanks, he went off
half-cocked.

--
Peter in Canberra


body:
> Maybe the dump job could scan a completed dump file for </mediawiki> and
alert when missing?
> This will detect aborted dumps.

Well simply logging succesfull completion to a separate dump_progress file
at the end of each dump step will do I guess.
After all dumps are done, this file could be auto scanned for missing
confirmations.

Erik Zachte


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fictional articles?

body:
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Andrew Gray wrote:
>
> I'm wanting to expand the [[Nihilartikel]] article, by discussing the
> occurence of nihilartikels - deliberately fictional articles - in open
> publications like Wikipedia. We mention a couple, which were articles
> about famous hoaxes themselves presented as real ([[Uqbar]] and [[San
> Serriffe]]) before being fixed. And, of course, there was [[Jamie
> Kane]] recently. Things like [[Battle of Blenau]] Does anyone remember
> any cases?
>
> (Myself, I found three fictional Aztec gods. First reference here June
> 10, deleted mid August.)
>
> However, what I'm looking for are cases of purely false information,
> not particularly intended for humorous effect or linked to popular
> culture - which if memory serves do get caught and hauled onto VfD
> every now and again. This is a developing role of the nihilartikel -
> rather than being inserted "from high", they get added from below,
> almost as part of a [[breaching experiment]] ("let's see if this
> lasts")
>
For some reason, Ethiopian topics seem to attract more than its
share -- or maybe it's because I've been focussing my attention there
lately. (But I don't remember seeing a similar proportion of
fictional articles related to Ancient Egypt.)

And the type of fictional material that gets added isn't necessarily
a nihilartikel -- although that is one form. Two other ways that I've
seen are:

* Fictional material into articles on otherwise real subjects. The
Date & Year pages seem to be a good example of this, where a contributor
might add an event that seems true to all but an expert. (If you were
to see an edit to [[100 BC]] that read "Construction completed on
the Aqua Fabia", would you know at a glance whether this was true or
false?) I had a similar problem with an article about the Falls of
the Blue Nile, where someone had stated that these falls had been
covered by a lake created by a modern dam; it took me months to find
a source that proved the falls are not beneath several feet of water.
(This was from a Tour guide to Ethiopia; & with my luck, I probably
misread that section.)

* Real subject, content entirely fictional. I encountered this problem
with [[Shilavo]]: an anon editor added a lengthy, fairly detailed
article about how this had grown into a modern Ethiopian city. Someone
(I don't remember at the moment) marked it for Cleanup. I was suspicious
about the article, but only after a determined search on Google did I
finally learn that the real Shilavo was a village of about 700 people
in the middle of the Ogaden, & which is important only because it
is the home of the only airport (unpaved) in the region.

And then there is the case of what ought to be a nihilartikel -- but
is actually true. Like Wanker's Corner, Oregon, an otherwise
unremarkable intersection SW of Lake Oswego. When I wrote that article,
my primary concern was to prove that it *did* exist; so I located &
mentioned every bit of evidence for its existence. (I ought to drive
down there & take a picture of the feed store that displays the name
proudly.) Sadly, the name came into use after the US government
consolidated the countless tiny post offices into a more centralized
system. (Sorry, Stan -- any Wanker's Corner cancels you might find
would all be forgeries.)

My problem with a lot of these cases for me is that unless the fiction
is so obvious that it sets off my BS detector, I have to put it on
my list of things to do. After all, there is a lot of information of
WP that has been drawn from a faulty memory, & only upon review &
continuing research is the good-faith error found & fixed. That is
perhaps the most important reason why I try to provide sources for
everything I can in my recent edits -- & that some of the sources I
have for Ethiopian history are suspicious, but they are all I have
to work with.

Geoff


subject: [WikiEN-l] Pseudodoxia (neo-Nazi Wikipedia)

body:
On 8/29/05, Rob <gamaliel8 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I guess you could say somebody burned down their
> Reichstag. ;)

You could say that, but in this case, the difference is that they
'''didn't''' burn it down themselves.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: what you wrote on wikipedia blocks

body:
We are all beggars. No one can insist on a standard of fairness when
editing articles. You and I can only make a good faith edit and explain
it on the article's discussion page. If others aren't convinced, there's
little you or I can do about it.

While your account is blocked you can make editorial suggestions on your
user talk page. Please tell me your Wikipedia username, and I'll
dialogue further with you there.

(If you choose to reply only by private email, please use my Yahoo
address.

Ed Poor
Wikipedia

> -----Original Message-----
> From: megaknee at btopenworld.com [mailto:megaknee at btopenworld.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 12:48 PM
> To: Poor, Edmund W
> Subject: what you wrote on wikipedia blocks
>
>
> "Anyone who has 'trouble' following the rules should
> get a standard
> time-out for each violation, until they either
>
> 1. Get a clue, or
> 2. Choose to be elsewhere"
>
> I saw this.It's not what happened to me, in getting
> permanently kicked out on the argument that to claim
> to be entitled to any standards of fairness instead of
> always being a beggar for them as discretionary,
> constituted "legal threats"! And this was done near
> the expiry of a 2-day block for accused "link spam"
> that was flagrantly biased because it wasn't put on
> the other side of the argument concerned who were
> repeatedly reinstating their link while I was trying
> to achieve a neutral balance with it.
>
> Both blocks had the effect of preventing me taking the
> issue to RfC, or nominating a relevant VfD, after I
> had been bullied by a group with personal attacks
> started out of nowhere, sourced from a feud outside
> Wikipedia, and an attitude that to call them unfair
> proved them right! As can be read at talk:Asperger's
> Syndrome, Aug 18-27.
>
> Unless the blocks don't prevent there existing a
> contest proceeding exists against them where this
> evidence of bias can be presented and answered, that
> evidences to the world that Wikipedia is corrupt. That
> is not a "legal threat" because Wikipedia can't opt
> out of the world! so has definite responsibilities
> never to side with group bullying or stalking of any
> user, no matter if it would be cynically expedient to.
>
> Have you any user instructions on how, when
> thwarted by exactly the indefinite block whose
> abusiveness on bullies's side I'm seeking to
> challenge, and whose open purpose is already to
> prevent me making other challenges - how I can convey
> this challenge on an official basis to the highest
> levels of Wikipedia in the terms shown in this email.
> If not, shouldn't you abandon Wikipedia,  concluding
> it does not match your own stated standards of
> fairness and is corrupt?
>
> I have set out all this both in Wikien-l and on my
> user page. It's as simple as this:
>
> The only way the NPOV policy genuinely exists and is
> not a public lie, is if unconditionally anyone who
> falls victim to crowd psychology can lay claim to by
> right, not have to beg for by favour, any measure that
> prevents a force of group numbers keeping a bullying
> bias in place. Now, "laying claim to" anything,
> inherently means being entitled to anything. This is
> actually a case-study in how society emerged from the
> Middle Ages. To have any credible claim to work by any
> principles, a society must show they operate reliably fairly,
> and to do that means that people are entitled to it. No way
> out of that. Hence, as soon as any group tries to follow any
> policy code like neutral POV, immediately people are entitled
> to things and all things are not dependent on favour. So, it
> stands absolutely logically proved:
>
> either * it's wrong to say to any user ever "you're
> not entitled to anything",
>
> or * it's wrong to say to the public that Wikipedia
> has a neutrality policy that works.
>
> They can't both be right because anyone can see they
> contradict each other head-on. At least one must be
> wrong. Which is it? What this means is perfectly
> clear. Unless Wikipedia can answer that, then
> Wikipedia is illegal and I have uncovered the point
> where its present structure makes it so.
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
> snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Macedonian name on English Wikipedia

body:
Milos Rancic wrote:

>Greek nationalists, supported by one Bulgarian nationalist (just to
>say that Bulgarian Wikipedian community is not nationalist) are
>forcing naming (modern) Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs".
>
>Even (some) people on English Wikipedia think that they can vote about
>the name of one ethicity/nation. This is a horror. I urge to all of
>you to stop that (Greek) nationalist orgy there!
>
>
The problem is that the name "Macedonian", in English at least, is
ambiguous.  In some contexts, it primarily refers to residents of the
Republic of Macedonia.  In other contexts, it primarily refers to
residents of the ancient Macedonian Empire.  In still other contexts, it
refers generally to inhabitants of the Balkan region named "Macedonia"
(corresponding roughly to the former Ottoman province of that name),
some of whom are in the RoM, but others of whom are in Greece and
Bulgaria.  This latter usage in particular leads to some disputes,
especially with northern Greeks who call themselves "Macedonians", and
consider the name an important part of their history (the 1912 war that
captured Thessaloniki from the Ottomans is and long has been called the
"Macedonian Struggle", for example).

Generally, Wikipedia tries to find some compromise on disputed issues,
so in this case the compromise is that none of the claimants get the
unadorned "Macedonians" as a descriptor.

I do agree something other than "Macedonian Slavs" would be good.
"Macedonian (nationality)" has been proposed on one of the talk pages
and seems relatively neutral (since the ancient Macedonians weren't part
of a "nationality" by a modern definition, and the modern Greek
Macedonians are a component of the Greek nationity, not a separate
nationality).

-Mark


body:
Thomas Koll wrote:
>
> Am 29.08.2005 um 18:07 schrieb ravi:
>
>> 1. provide a tag to markup an acronym/abbreviation: when moused over,
>>    a tooltip will be displayed (using the 'title' html attribute) that
>>    provides the expansion of the acronym.
>
> I'd suggest a template {{abbrev|aka|Also know as}} rendering to
> <abbr title="{{{1}}}">{{{2}}}</abbr>
>

thanks for the response. i like the above. however, this would require
that the author specify the expansion with each mention of the acronym.
that would discourage adoption/use... i would prefer that my extension
pre-process the page and add the title tags based on a separate list
maintained elsewhere (such as in the DB or in a flat file, or in another
wiki page).

>
>> 2. additionally, if a glossary page is specified then the text is  linked
>>    to the relevant section of that page. alternatively, if a page with
>>    the acronym as its title is present, the text is linked to that  page.
>
> honestly a much too technical solution for a problem the user can easily
> fix by typing the unknown word into the search box...
 >

true...

> do you know in-document linking yet? [[#section xxx]]

i have read about it, yes.

	--ravi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Speaking of insecure egos...

body:
On 8/29/05, El C <el.ceeh at gmail.com> wrote:
> >WP:BLOODYMINDEDNESS
>
> I offered Skyring to have my blocking notice deleted in its entrirety,
> so I fail to see the merit of the characterization:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASkyring&diff=21027669&oldid=20891855

Yeah. I deleted it. You said I could, and I don't need anyone's
permission to clear out my talk page anyway.

> I didn't mean sanguine, so I don't see why should I become signatory
> to having said that. Further, Skyring knows I am especially weary of
> him modifying my comments on Wikipedia to begin with.

?????


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Legal paranoia

body:
On 8/28/05, Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
> There is paranoia, and then there is prudence.

So are they threatening to sue us? Did I miss something? If they
aren't, why worry about it? If the pages had an elaborate fair use
rationale on them, it would probably help with all of this a bit.

FF


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Legal paranoia

body:
On 8/28/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
> Each of these four factors do not have to be considered separately to
> the exclusion of the others,IIRC, the courts consider them both
> separately and in combination.
>
> Addressing #1 & #4 together:  Our use is non-profit usage that
> stimulates creativity, certainly, which in turn directly results in
> the reduction of the market values of EB and Encarta.  How can that
> possibly be fair use?  I don't think it can.

I think this is nonsense -- EB doesn't make money based on the number
or even the choice of topics. They make it PRIMARILY because of the
article CONTENT, which we are not duplicating in the slightest. They
also make money because of their so-stressed "reliability" which
they've gone to great lengths to explain that they don't think we have
a shred of anyway. Noticing that they have an article on "The U.S.
Civil War" and then creating our own article with totally separate
content on "The U.S. Civil War" does not sound anything like copyright
infringement to me. It's no different than flipping open a volume and
reading what they have, except it is compiled into one place. It is
*bibliographic information* at that -- mere citation!

I offered this the first time and I'll offer it again: if people are
really so freaked out over this, I'm happy to write up a little script
which would take any given list of article titles and see if they were
available on Wikipedia. I'm sure we can find someone who can host it.
Otherwise I'd be happy to host it on my own servers as "research". If
it aids Wikipedia in writing good articles, so be it!

I'm fine with being copyright paranoid in situations regarding things
which are known to be copyrightable. But with something as vague as
"article titles in an encyclopedia which may not be in this other
encyclopedia", I'm less inclined unless there was a direct legal
threat or request for removal (in which case I'm happy to lean towards
the idea of prudence and a lack-of-lawsuit).

FF


subject: legal paranoia (was Re: [WikiEN-l] Encarta article list)

body:
It would be easy to write a PHP script which would check the site once
a day or something like that and update the red/blue links. I wrote
about half of one last time before discarding it as unnecessary since
people seemed to stop worrying about it.

FF

On 8/28/05, Anthony DiPierro <wikispam at inbox.org> wrote:
> Where did the initial list come from?  Does anyone have a copy of it?
>
> Publishing this outside of Wikipedia would be significantly harder,
> because the list of red/blue links would have to be kept up to date,
> but it is a potential solution.  Another, which is arguably even more
> useful, is to pick a certain subset of the list (say 50 entries) to
> work on at any time.
>
> But first we need a copy of the list, preferably the full 100,000 article one.
>
> On 8/28/05, Bogdan Giusca (discutii) <disclist at dapyx-soft.com> wrote:
> > First, some statistics: we currently have a list of 13,000
> > articles, out of 100,000 articles which Britannica has. The list
> > began in February 2005 with 28,360 articles.
> >
> > A solution for this problem would be hosting the list outside
> > the Wikimedia servers and the US, as in some countries (Sweden,
> > for example), publishing the list in itself would be fair use and not
> > be punishable under copyright infrigement because it does not create
> > any loss of profit to Britannica, since nobody buys an encyclopedia
> > only for the index.
> >
> > Sunday, August 28, 2005, 8:06:01 PM, you wrote:
> >
> > D> Case law has consistently held that an index of a work
> > D> may be independently subject to copyright.  We are
> > D> certainly not using an insubstantial portion of their
> > D> index.
> >
> > D> I've discussed this here and other places before, but
> > D> I do not believe we have a defensible fair use claim
> > D> in this case.  Since I have always been on the losing
> > D> side of those arguments, I am just surprised something
> > D> changed.
> >
> > D> -DF
> >
> > >> And it seems to me, as we've discussed on here
> > >> before, that it would easily fall under the "fair
> > >> use" clause. We are using an insubstantial part of
> > >> their encyclopedia; we are using it for our own
> > >> internal purposes (it is in the Wikipedia
> > >> namespace, is it not?); we are non-profit; we are
> > >> not claiming copyright; we are not defrauding them >
> > D> in any way; we are not even looking at the content >
> > D> itself, just bibliographic information.
> > >>
> > >> FF
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


list: foundation-l

from_name: Milos Rancic

subject: [Foundation-l] Macedonian name on English Wikipedia

body:
Please, look at articles such as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Slavs ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_denar and similar.

Greek nationalists, supported by one Bulgarian nationalist (just to
say that Bulgarian Wikipedian community is not nationalist) are
forcing naming (modern) Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs".

Even (some) people on English Wikipedia think that they can vote about
the name of one ethicity/nation. This is a horror. I urge to all of
you to stop that (Greek) nationalist orgy there!

Wikipedia is not the place for nationalist propaganda.


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocked inappropriately

body:
If you feel you have been mistreated, the most prudent course of
action would be to discuss the issue rationally on the talk page of
the article or of the users involved.

I'd also point out that NPOV does not stand for No Point of View. If
you feel that the discussion of the rules is imbalanced, then feel
free to correct that imbalance by discussing alternative points of
view. Removing slabs of content does not correct the imbalance and
detracts from the completeness of the wiki.

As you can see other users have rewritten the content in question, so
that it is no longer a potential copyright violation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bob_Jones_University&diff=22069083&oldid=22007415
It seems that the issue has been resolved.

(PS. User:Ambi is female, so please use the correct pronouns.)

On 8/28/05, Tobin Titus <tobin at titus.to> wrote:
> I have been involved in a dispute over [[Bob Jones University]] with a few
> editors for the past few days. I've made the argument that the rules posted
> in a list are not encyclopedic and are POV when placed in context only with
> criticism.  Additionally, cutting the rules from the BJU.EDU page and
> pasting them into the page is a copyright violation.  After trying several
> times to edit the offending section in various ways and trying to find a
> compromise, I decided I had no choice but to remove the offending content
> and place a copyvio notice in its place. I initially only did this in the
> "Rules For Students" subpage.  The administrator that was involved in a
> dispute over the article reverted the page and removed the copyvio notice.
> This is avoidant vandalism. I then re-read the entire policy which states
> that I should blank the page and add the copyvio notice, which I did, citing
> each copyright violation and the page it was copied from.  This was again
> reverted.  I continued to ask Ambi (the administrator) to please just remove
> the offending content and we could work on a compromise. He continued to
> revert the page.  After reverting the avoidant vandalism many times, he had
> me blocked for a 3RR violation. As I read 3RR it states that there is an
> exception made for vandalism.  However, I was blocked for violation of a 3RR
> rule, and *I* was attributed with the avoidant vandalism as well when it was
> Ambi that continued to remove the copyvio notice. I believe ambi was acting
> in good faith, but this is over the top and a violation of the rules, IMHO.
> I realize I'm fairly new to Wikipedia and may be wrong, but what else can I
> do but follow the policy as it is written on Wikipedia's site?  I'm also
> confused why I was attributed with the copyvio removal when it was Ambi that
> continued to remove the notice.  Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in
> advance for your help.
>
> Tobin Titus
> AKA: Sleepnomore
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
El C wrote:

>At the event, I am only familliar with two offsite hate and/or hit
>lists: this one, and the Sollog one. It's crucial, then, to remain
>more-or-less grounded to what is actually taking place, as opposed to
>abstract ideals.
>
>
Why do you distinguish offsite and onsite lists?  There have been
*numerous* on-Wikipedia lists of users who have been listed due to their
various alleged opinions, biases, and misdeeds, as seen from the
perspective of the person compiling the list.

 From memory, these lists, some shorter and some longer, have included
alleged:
-- Communists (and communists apologists)
-- Zionists
-- Anti-Semites
-- Terrorist apologists
-- Proponents of "alternative medicine"
-- Proponents of Creationism
-- Members of the Church of Scientology
etc.

-Mark


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia in Neapolitan language

body:
Following our discussions on napulitano at yahoogroups.com about a possible
wikipedia in Neapolitan language I just added the request here:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Neapolitan

Supporters and mother tongue speakers are highly welcome :-)

 From my side: I speak Neapolitan every day, read it without problems,
but have some problems in writing - so: most of all technical support
and "clean up"-function for me.

Thank you for supporting our project.

Ciao, Sabine

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Jamie Bliss

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Mediawiki software localisation -- Pootle

body:
(I have not been following this thread closely, so correct me if I am in
error, as usual.)

Nikola Smolenski wrote:
> I see two ways of doing this: either converting language files to something
> (be it TMX, .po or something else), editing them, and converting them back
> to .php, or converting MediaWiki to use gettext and .po files directly. The
> latter might even be faster for smaller installations (and availability of
> gettext is not a problem now that php-gettext exists) - should it be done?

After some basic research on php-gettext, I note there are several
severe draw-backs.
- It is reportedly not thread-safe; any Windows server using it is
at-risk for serious errors
- It apparently caches files and does not check for updates until you
restart Apache
- Because it is an extension, it should not be required

The latter two are especially important if the server is not controlled
by the webmaster (ie, someone else hosts them). This could make it
dificult for them to install an extension or restart Apache.

--Jamie


from_name: Evan Martin

subject: [Wikitech-l] lurking

body:
Hi all,

I've been occasionally reading this list through the archives but I
thought I'd finally subscribe so I can participate a bit more.  I
wanted to say "hi" immediately 'cause I understand some wikipedians
are nervous about where I work and I don't want to alarm anybody if I
delurk on another post.

I was tangentially involved in the rel='nofollow' development here and
I've followed those discussions with interest.  It makes me happy to
see you care about the quality of the internet outside of wikipedia as
well as quality within.

Before Google, I helped build LiveJournal  -- though LJ then was
pretty different from LJ now -- and I understand you use(d?) some of
our software (I contributed a tiny bit to memcached).

Anyway, I mostly wanted to say that I'm a huge fan of what y'all do
and I'm eager to see your success in the future.  Maybe I can provide
advice or answers in the areas I'm knowledgeable about.

(Oh, and a disclaimer: I don't speak for the company.)


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fictional articles?

body:
>From: Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com>
>
>Hi all.
>
>I'm wanting to expand the [[Nihilartikel]] article, by discussing the
>occurence of nihilartikels - deliberately fictional articles - in open
>publications like Wikipedia. We mention a couple, which were articles
>about famous hoaxes themselves presented as real ([[Uqbar]] and [[San
>Serriffe]]) before being fixed. And, of course, there was [[Jamie
>Kane]] recently. Things like [[Battle of Blenau]] Does anyone remember
>any cases?
>
>(Myself, I found three fictional Aztec gods. First reference here June
>10, deleted mid August.)
>
>However, what I'm looking for are cases of purely false information,
>not particularly intended for humorous effect or linked to popular
>culture - which if memory serves do get caught and hauled onto VfD
>every now and again. This is a developing role of the nihilartikel -
>rather than being inserted "from high", they get added from below,
>almost as part of a [[breaching experiment]] ("let's see if this
>lasts")
>
>I do know we have people actively inserting false information into
>wikipedia. Not all of it is fiction presented as fact; some is fantasy
>presented as fact. But hard to discuss it without cases, without
>knowing how long these last "in the wild"...

I don't know if this matches your criteria, but here are several that were
inserted for humourous purposes:

[[Mahadrek]]
[[Creedmoor chassidim]]
[[Thoraziner Chassidism]]
[[Onan ben Drusoy]]

The first two lasted about a week, the third was supposed to be deleted but
was not, and lasted 3 months.  The last escaped detectrion and also lasted 3
months.  The articles were good/obscure enough that most people couldn't
tell if they were BJAODN or not.  The creator posted on this
http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?showtopic=11560&st=0 message board,
stating that they were created to "to prove that Wikipedia has no
standards".

Jay.


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fictional articles?

body:
Hi all.

I'm wanting to expand the [[Nihilartikel]] article, by discussing the
occurence of nihilartikels - deliberately fictional articles - in open
publications like Wikipedia. We mention a couple, which were articles
about famous hoaxes themselves presented as real ([[Uqbar]] and [[San
Serriffe]]) before being fixed. And, of course, there was [[Jamie
Kane]] recently. Things like [[Battle of Blenau]] Does anyone remember
any cases?

(Myself, I found three fictional Aztec gods. First reference here June
10, deleted mid August.)

However, what I'm looking for are cases of purely false information,
not particularly intended for humorous effect or linked to popular
culture - which if memory serves do get caught and hauled onto VfD
every now and again. This is a developing role of the nihilartikel -
rather than being inserted "from high", they get added from below,
almost as part of a [[breaching experiment]] ("let's see if this
lasts")

I do know we have people actively inserting false information into
wikipedia. Not all of it is fiction presented as fact; some is fantasy
presented as fact. But hard to discuss it without cases, without
knowing how long these last "in the wild"...

Thanks,
--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Michael Holzt

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Probably faked article in 57(!) languages

body:
In the german Wikipedia we came accross the article
[[de:The_Flowers_Of_Romance]].

While there was a band of this name in the seventies, the article is being
used to promote a newly founded band from Estonia which does not seem to
have any relation to the original band. Most edits of the article are from
an IP in Estonia.

Interestingly enough the article has been (more or less) translated into
57 languages:

11:55, 26. Jul 2005 Palica K (interwiki Erg?nze: tl, lv, ro, th, rm, pl, no,
nn, nl, la, pt, lb, ru, tr, gd, io, ar, ga, ee, gl, id, cs, eo, el, es, eu,
an, ca, it, iu, vi, bn, sh, ur, ast, ks, sl, ku, ms, chr, yi, se, nah, sr,
oc, hi, hu, bs, bg, sk, fi, ang, br, uk, hr, ht)

This seems very fishy and i believe someone is playing a bad game with
Wikipedia and most language version have fallen for it (until now).

At least in the german wikipedia there is also an article about the alleged
front man of the band: [[de:Tony Blackplait]]. It seems that all the facts
mentioned in the article (like films) are fabricated, and when searching for
that name in google all that came up are other Wikis (where the name has for
example been included into an article about Sid Vicious) and mostly wikipedia
copies. You might want to check for similiar fake articles in other
languages.

So i would like to make you aware of this. You might want to check the facts
for yourself and maybe delete the article from the various languages.

As it seems this article has been classified as a hoax (and deleted)
earlier in the englisch wikipedia, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/The_Flowers_Of_Romance

In the meanwhile the article has been recreated in the english wikipedia,
see [[en:The Flowers of Romance (band 2)]].

Regards
Michael

--
      It's an insane world, but i'm proud to be a part of it. -- Bill Hicks


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] Announcement: License dropdown box on Special:Upload

body:
I've written a feature (applied to HEAD) that enables administrators
to add a license selection box to Special:Upload, they have to write a
MediaWiki:Licenses message with information which will be used to
construct the form, a sample message would look like:

* Free licenses
** GNU Licenses
*** GFDL|GNU Free Documentation License
*** GPL|GNU General Public License
** Creative Commons licenses
*** ....

The bullets that have the form "Template|Text" are selectable
templates, if they're selected {{Template}} will be added to the file
page under a == License == subheading, the bullets that have the form
"Text" are selecteble but have no effect, both can be localized
through the MediaWiki namespace, for instance one could add "Frj?lsa
GNU handb?karleyfi?" to MediaWiki:GNU Free Documentation License and
"Frj?ls leyfi" to MediaWiki:Free licenses to translate the
corrisponding items into Icelandic.


from_name: Boris Lohnzweiger

body:
Hi Milos!

At the German WP we have an arbitration committee for such issues. I don't know if anything similar exists at en: but if so that would surely be worth a try.

As far as I'm concerned I think Wikipedia should not rename ethnic groups at will. If a people designates itself by a certain name others have to respect that name and not change it at random. This holds especially true if that people represents the majority population of a present-day independant nation.

Regards,
Boris

millosh at mutualaid.org, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 29.08.05 14:02:12:

Please, look at articles such as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Slavs ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_denar and similar.

Greek nationalists, supported by one Bulgarian nationalist (just to
say that Bulgarian Wikipedian community is not nationalist) are
forcing naming (modern) Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs".

Even (some) people on English Wikipedia think that they can vote about
the name of one ethicity/nation. This is a horror. I urge to all of
you to stop that (Greek) nationalist orgy there!

Wikipedia is not the place for nationalist propaganda.
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________________
Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179


from_name: Delphine Ménard

subject:
[Foundation-l] Fwd: Your message to foundation-l awaits moderator
	approval

body:
On 8/29/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> gnaaaaaaaaa....
>
> I *knew* it :-(((((

errr, it says you're administrator of the list ;-). So let it through.

:P

Delphine
--
~notafish


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.5rc4, 1.4.9, 1.3.15 released [SECURITY]

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

These are security and maintenance releases, which fix two cross-site
scripting bugs. All internet-facing wikis are recommended to upgrade to
the current release in their series.

Incorrect handling of <math> tags when TeX rendering is disabled, as in
the default configuration. (Wikis where the optional math support has
been *enabled* are not vulnerable.)

* 1.5 vulnerable: <= 1.5rc3  fixed: >= 1.5rc4
* 1.4 vulnerable: <= 1.4.8   fixed: >= 1.4.9
* 1.3 vulnerable: <= 1.3.14  fixed: >= 1.3.15

Incorrect handling of <nowiki> and extension tags in table styles:

* 1.5 vulnerable: <= 1.5rc3  fixed: >= 1.5rc4
* 1.4 vulnerable: <= 1.4.8   fixed: >= 1.4.9
* 1.3 not vulnerable

Additionally, 1.5rc4 fixes some compatibility issues with PHP 5.1 beta.

Release notes:
1.5rc4 http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=352778
1.4.9  http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=352777
1.3.15 http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=352776

Download:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.5rc4.tar.gz?download
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.4.9.tar.gz?download
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.3.15.tar.gz?download

File checksums:
MD5 (mediawiki-1.5rc4.tar.gz) = 5a27beedfa4107813296307fe52b20ad
MD5 (mediawiki-1.4.9.tar.gz) = fae30b065d08152735b2c2edd61aadf4
MD5 (mediawiki-1.3.15.tar.gz) = f1279514435143bd6840e1d570d8c4f4

Before asking for help, try the FAQ:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_FAQ

Low-traffic release announcements mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Tomer Chachamu

body:
Template: gl
[[{{{2}}}|<abbr title="{{{3}}}">{{{1}}}</abbr>]]

Usage: {{gl|pm|12-hour clock|Post meridiem}}


body:
On 8/29/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
> At the German WP we have an arbitration committee for such issues. I don't
> know if anything similar exists at en: but if so that would surely be worth a
> try.

I am not sure, but it seems to me that arbitration committee on en:
serves to solve conflicts between people, and not about some general
questions like this one.

> As far as I'm concerned I think Wikipedia should not rename ethnic groups at
> will. If a people designates itself by a certain name others have to respect
> that name and not change it at random. This holds especially true if that
> people represents the majority population of a present-day independant
> nation.

In this case I am involved only because one of admins from mk: asked
me for help about vote month or two ago. I found new poll
accidentally.

The problem is that I think that it is just one case from the sea of
past and future similar cases. And this is not irrelevant type of
conflict. This is a half step to clear promotion of nazi ideas.

And the main problem is that a lot of people (there) are trying just
to see the problem only in the sense of nationalist "arguments". All
of them sound "rational", "well explained", "look like NPOV", but this
is violation of primary human rights and violation of UN bill of human
rights. And there should not be any kind of negotiations with that.

So, does English Wikipedian community have any answer about such incidents?


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
The fake was spotted on it: on july 16th and the current article is free
from hoaxes, if anyone wants to translate :-)

Alfio

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Michael Holzt wrote:

> In the german Wikipedia we came accross the article
> [[de:The_Flowers_Of_Romance]].
>
> While there was a band of this name in the seventies, the article is being
> used to promote a newly founded band from Estonia which does not seem to
> have any relation to the original band. Most edits of the article are from
> an IP in Estonia.
>
> Interestingly enough the article has been (more or less) translated into
> 57 languages:
>
> 11:55, 26. Jul 2005 Palica K (interwiki Erg?nze: tl, lv, ro, th, rm, pl, no,
> nn, nl, la, pt, lb, ru, tr, gd, io, ar, ga, ee, gl, id, cs, eo, el, es, eu,
> an, ca, it, iu, vi, bn, sh, ur, ast, ks, sl, ku, ms, chr, yi, se, nah, sr,
> oc, hi, hu, bs, bg, sk, fi, ang, br, uk, hr, ht)
>
> This seems very fishy and i believe someone is playing a bad game with
> Wikipedia and most language version have fallen for it (until now).
>
> At least in the german wikipedia there is also an article about the alleged
> front man of the band: [[de:Tony Blackplait]]. It seems that all the facts
> mentioned in the article (like films) are fabricated, and when searching for
> that name in google all that came up are other Wikis (where the name has for
> example been included into an article about Sid Vicious) and mostly wikipedia
> copies. You might want to check for similiar fake articles in other
> languages.
>
> So i would like to make you aware of this. You might want to check the facts
> for yourself and maybe delete the article from the various languages.
>
> As it seems this article has been classified as a hoax (and deleted)
> earlier in the englisch wikipedia, see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/The_Flowers_Of_Romance
>
> In the meanwhile the article has been recreated in the english wikipedia,
> see [[en:The Flowers of Romance (band 2)]].
>
>
> Regards
> Michael
>
> --
>      It's an insane world, but i'm proud to be a part of it. -- Bill Hicks
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>


from_name: Thomas Koll

body:
Am 29.08.2005 um 18:07 schrieb ravi:
> 1. provide a tag to markup an acronym/abbreviation: when moused over,
>    a tooltip will be displayed (using the 'title' html attribute) that
>    provides the expansion of the acronym.

I'd suggest a template {{abbrev|aka|Also know as}} rendering to
<abbr title="{{{1}}}">{{{2}}}</abbr>

> 2. additionally, if a glossary page is specified then the text is
> linked
>    to the relevant section of that page. alternatively, if a page with
>    the acronym as its title is present, the text is linked to that
> page.

honestly a much too technical solution for a problem the user can easily
fix by typing the unknown word into the search box...
do you know in-document linking yet? [[#section xxx]]

ciao, tom

--
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
http://www.tomk32.de


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
FWIW:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=nap

On 29/08/05, Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it> wrote:
> Following our discussions on napulitano at yahoogroups.com about a possible
> wikipedia in Neapolitan language I just added the request here:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Neapolitan
>
> Supporters and mother tongue speakers are highly welcome :-)
>
>  From my side: I speak Neapolitan every day, read it without problems,
> but have some problems in writing - so: most of all technical support
> and "clean up"-function for me.
>
> Thank you for supporting our project.
>
> Ciao, Sabine
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
> http://mail.yahoo.it
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


body:
Am 29.08.2005 um 18:56 schrieb ravi:
> thanks for the response. i like the above. however, this would
> require that the author specify the expansion with each mention of
> the acronym. that would discourage adoption/use... i would prefer
> that my extension pre-process the page and add the title tags based
> on a separate list maintained elsewhere (such as in the DB or in a
> flat file, or in another wiki page).

My opinion is that you should use such things carfully, less is more
if you want the reader
to concentrate on the really important things. Doing such things
automatically will always cause a strange reading experience.

ciao, tom
--
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
http://www.tomk32.de


body:
2005/8/29, Tomer Chachamu <the.r3m0t at gmail.com>:
> On 29/08/05, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason <avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> > page under a == License == subheading
>
> How can that heading be changed?

Changed MediaWiki:License


from_name: Nicolas Weeger

subject:
[Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation in 5 years -
	Giant	brainstorming - a game with rules.

body:
Hello.

> *Board and management

Board includes Jimbo, 4 people representing the community, 3
representing the local chapters. Serving for 2 or 3 years, and trying
hard to achieve consensus when deciding.

They meet regularly, they are not paid but have their expenses covered
so they don't need to pay themselves if they don't want to (including
non paid holidays to go to meetings, for instance).

Board and community communicate sufficiently to not have any big
misunderstanding or clouded issue.

> *Staff (the positions, the roles, whether they're paid or not)

I don't have anything against having people paid, or at least see their
fees reimbursed.
Apart that, joker :)

> *Budget

Most of our hardware needs are met by subventions from big organisations
and partnerships. We got enough proposals to be neutral (able to switch
whenever we feel too much pressure).
Budget is clear enough to figure by non technical people, and yet really
detailed.

> *Fundraising scheme

We get enough money to cover all our internal spendings, and part of our
hardware.
Donators can tell where there money should be spent.

> *Philantropic activity and outreach to get our content widely redistributed

We have partnerships with editors, both on paper and DVDs, to publish
our content. Also we have agreements with NGO to distribute it to areas
that needs it.

> *Projects

Wikibook is greatly improved by teachers from all around the world
creating great schoolbooks, and also students who make them funnier to
use :) They are regularly used in schools. Also some textbooks editors
publish them because printed books are better than computer ones sometimes.

Wikipedia is still the higher project in articles count, with edit wars
raging every other day. Still, most people just contribute without any
fuss. The inclusion rules are more relaxed, and only a handful of
articles are removed every day.

Wikinews is often used as a primary information source, based on many
reports from direct witnesses of events. It does not feature editorials
or too oriented contents, as per NPOV policy. It features radio and
video feeds. Radio is articles being read, video from local witnesses.

Wiktionary contains some millions entries. With the software, it's easy
to see definition of a word in any language, with all translations in
other languages.

> *Content objectives

We had many partnerships with public and private organisations to get
their content integrated in our projects. WMF acts as a gateway between
those partners and the community (which has its own relations with other
organizations, WMF isn't required to be the middleman all the time!).
Due to our lobbying (or not), many organizations free their contents and
still work fine :)

> *Software objectives

We have WYSIWYG edition, metadata separated from articles contents,
single login.
Also it's easy to select articles, following category relationships, and
export them to PDF or any handy format for later redistribution.

> *Relationship between chapters and parent organisation

We have a decentralized structure. The Board oversees the grand schema
of things, but does not micromanage. Local chapters have much autonomy,
report regularly to the Board, but are trusted enough to do important
things without (not against, in the spirit of!) Board approval when needed.

> *Relationships with the outside world (PR, partnerships, etc.)

We cooperate with some governments, who provide legal advice when
needed, and help us with local tax issues.
The press often links to our content, and uses it to complement or
illustrate articles.
We are attacked sometimes, but globally have a not too bad image in the
world. We are also one really successful example of community project.

Nicolas


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Copyright situation

body:
wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

>Stan Shebs wrote:
>
>
>>Alphax wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Skyring wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Pete, awarding fifteen minutes of eternal fame to whoever coined that
>>>>word "Nazipedia"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>*checks archive*
>>>
>>>On 20/08/2005 16:27, Alphax wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Stormfront Wikipedia" is unnacceptable on the simple grounds of
>>>>trademark infringement. "Stormfrontpedia" would be acceptable.
>>>>"Nazipedia" might get them into trouble in whatever juridstiction their
>>>>servers are located in :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>*wins*
>>>
>>>
>>Sorry, Robert Klein used the term a couple years ago, in one
>>of his periodic announcements of departure from WP, the complaint
>>being that WP was allowing in too much anti-Jewish bias.
>>
I beg your pardon, but who is Robert Klein? I'm not aware of any
Wikipedia contributors by that name, although we do have an article
about [[Robert Klein]], the comedian.

Oh, and RK has had his fifteen minutes already.

--Michael Snow


body:
On 29/08/05, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason <avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> page under a == License == subheading

How can that heading be changed?


from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Mediawiki software localisation -- Pootle

body:
On Sunday 28 August 2005 18:32, Rowan Collins wrote:
> On 28/08/05, Nikola Smolenski <smolensk at eunet.yu> wrote:
> > Maybe it would be possible to make a list of strings which are expected
> > to be customised, and which are not. For example, "From Wikipedia, the
> > free encyclopedia" will always be customised while "Article",
> > "Discussion", "Edit", "Recent Changes"... will never be. Then,
> > LanguageXx.php could periodically be refreshed with only "safe" strings
> > filled in. Language files for Navajo and other languages which only have
> > translations in MediaWiki namespace could be created from scratch in this
> > way.
>
> Nice idea, but I'm not sure such a distinction can really be made -
> projects may have all sorts of reason for inserting particular jargon,
> links, or just plain style in various parts of the interface, and it
> seems a shame to deny them the right to do this. In fact,
> MediaWiki:edit is a case in point - the English default is "edit", but
> the English Wikipedia uses "edit this page", because lots of
> descriptions elsewhere refer to "clicking the edit this page link".

Well, that's not really custom - other wikis might well use it and it will
still be understandable. Either way, it could only be used for initial
building of language files, and then for suggesting changes, nothing needs to
be done automatically.

> I think a better idea would be to have a collaborative tool for
> translations (be it wiki-style or anything else) which was able to
> compare current default messages with custom messages from a
> particular wiki, and allow users (who can understand the language in
> question) to manually "merge" the changes which are appropriate for
> the distributed default. Ideally, there should also be a way of
> flagging which messages have been changed in the English "master"
> version and/or a way of comparing with a "parent" language (so, for
> instance, Catalan might be worth comparing against both Castillian
> Spanish and English).
>
> I haven't time right now to see if any existing tools could be adapted
> for this purpose - tempting though a wiki-based system seems, a
> permissive setup of an existing l10n tool might be more suitable.

I see two ways of doing this: either converting language files to something
(be it TMX, .po or something else), editing them, and converting them back
to .php, or converting MediaWiki to use gettext and .po files directly. The
latter might even be faster for smaller installations (and availability of
gettext is not a problem now that php-gettext exists) - should it be done?


from_name: El C

subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>Why do you distinguish offsite and onsite lists?
 > From memory, these lists [...]
 >-Mark
 I was only trying to follow the emphasis in the opposition's own argument,
that no-edits-on-Wikipedia translates into something distinct, in that sense
-- no other reason.
 I'm in favour of having many more more experiences, parallels, lessons,
etc., to draw from.
 El_C


from_name: Michael Turley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Legal paranoia

body:
On 8/29/05, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think this is nonsense -- EB doesn't make money based on the number
> or even the choice of topics. They make it PRIMARILY because of the
> article CONTENT, which we are not duplicating in the slightest. They
> also make money because of their so-stressed "reliability" which
> they've gone to great lengths to explain that they don't think we have
> a shred of anyway. Noticing that they have an article on "The U.S.
> Civil War" and then creating our own article with totally separate
> content on "The U.S. Civil War" does not sound anything like copyright
> infringement to me. It's no different than flipping open a volume and
> reading what they have, except it is compiled into one place. It is
> *bibliographic information* at that -- mere citation!
>
> I offered this the first time and I'll offer it again: if people are
> really so freaked out over this, I'm happy to write up a little script
> which would take any given list of article titles and see if they were
> available on Wikipedia. I'm sure we can find someone who can host it.
> Otherwise I'd be happy to host it on my own servers as "research". If
> it aids Wikipedia in writing good articles, so be it!
>
> I'm fine with being copyright paranoid in situations regarding things
> which are known to be copyrightable. But with something as vague as
> "article titles in an encyclopedia which may not be in this other
> encyclopedia", I'm less inclined unless there was a direct legal
> threat or request for removal (in which case I'm happy to lean towards
> the idea of prudence and a lack-of-lawsuit).
>
> FF

Their choice of what articles to include is a very significant part of their
content. The full list is a unique expression of editorial choice of what
parts of human knowledge to include, and as such is protected by copyright
law. Our list is an edited copy of theirs. Our use of significant portions
of their copyright work in order to create and improve direct competition
for them, the copyright holders, is certainly not protected under fair use.

I don't think I can make it any simpler than that.

In the end, it's up to a judge somewhere. The judge may not agree, but in
this world of capitalist corporatism, I'd be willing to wager a lot of money
that you're wrong.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: Sabine Cretella

body:
Nikola Smolenski wrote:

>On Sunday 28 August 2005 18:32, Rowan Collins wrote:
>
>
>>On 28/08/05, Nikola Smolenski <smolensk at eunet.yu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>I think a better idea would be to have a collaborative tool for
>>translations (be it wiki-style or anything else) which was able to
>>compare current default messages with custom messages from a
>>particular wiki, and allow users (who can understand the language in
>>question) to manually "merge" the changes which are appropriate for
>>the distributed default. Ideally, there should also be a way of
>>flagging which messages have been changed in the English "master"
>>version and/or a way of comparing with a "parent" language (so, for
>>instance, Catalan might be worth comparing against both Castillian
>>Spanish and English).
>>
>>I haven't time right now to see if any existing tools could be adapted
>>for this purpose - tempting though a wiki-based system seems, a
>>permissive setup of an existing l10n tool might be more suitable.
>>
>>
>
>I see two ways of doing this: either converting language files to something
>(be it TMX, .po or something else), editing them, and converting them back
>to .php, or converting MediaWiki to use gettext and .po files directly. The
>latter might even be faster for smaller installations (and availability of
>gettext is not a problem now that php-gettext exists) - should it be done?
>
>
Nicola, please have a look at the other mail I sent yesterday - php
files do not need to be converted to anything - you just work directly
on them and the tbx is created automatically.

So it is re-usable the next time you translate the update.

They still work with gettext to convert to .po files and the other way
round, but it is not necessary anymore. Creating the right parser/filter
you can work on whatever source file even c++.without needing to convert
everything.

Ciao, Sabine

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please remove me from mailing list

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Christopher Larberg wrote:
> Should we maybe consider making the e-mail footer more explicit?
> Perhaps, "go to the site linked above to unsubscribe" or something like
> that? A number of other mailing lists have a "To unsubscribe" section in
> their footers, and it seems the current one used for Wikimedia mailing
> lists isn't informative enough, as I've seen numerous "please
> unsubscribe me" mails sent directly to the lists. Just a thought.

I'm fairly certain that mailman can be set to moderate anyone who posts
 a message with subjects that match certain things...

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/N1aWOvUYQ1y21zDShNSdHU=
=7Tjz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright situation

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Skyring wrote:
> Pete, awarding fifteen minutes of eternal fame to whoever coined that
> word "Nazipedia"

*checks archive*

On 20/08/2005 16:27, Alphax wrote:
> "Stormfront Wikipedia" is unnacceptable on the simple grounds of
> trademark infringement. "Stormfrontpedia" would be acceptable.
> "Nazipedia" might get them into trouble in whatever juridstiction their
> servers are located in :)
>

*wins*

- --
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body:
Moin Michael,

Unfortunately, many of those languages don't have sysops who can
delete the page.

On some Wikipedias where it was already deleted, someone re-created it
today with just an image.

I deleted it for the second time on nv.wiki.

Mark

On 29/08/05, Michael Holzt <kju-wp at fqdn.org> wrote:
> In the german Wikipedia we came accross the article
> [[de:The_Flowers_Of_Romance]].
>
> While there was a band of this name in the seventies, the article is being
> used to promote a newly founded band from Estonia which does not seem to
> have any relation to the original band. Most edits of the article are from
> an IP in Estonia.
>
> Interestingly enough the article has been (more or less) translated into
> 57 languages:
>
> 11:55, 26. Jul 2005 Palica K (interwiki Erg?nze: tl, lv, ro, th, rm, pl, no,
> nn, nl, la, pt, lb, ru, tr, gd, io, ar, ga, ee, gl, id, cs, eo, el, es, eu,
> an, ca, it, iu, vi, bn, sh, ur, ast, ks, sl, ku, ms, chr, yi, se, nah, sr,
> oc, hi, hu, bs, bg, sk, fi, ang, br, uk, hr, ht)
>
> This seems very fishy and i believe someone is playing a bad game with
> Wikipedia and most language version have fallen for it (until now).
>
> At least in the german wikipedia there is also an article about the alleged
> front man of the band: [[de:Tony Blackplait]]. It seems that all the facts
> mentioned in the article (like films) are fabricated, and when searching for
> that name in google all that came up are other Wikis (where the name has for
> example been included into an article about Sid Vicious) and mostly wikipedia
> copies. You might want to check for similiar fake articles in other
> languages.
>
> So i would like to make you aware of this. You might want to check the facts
> for yourself and maybe delete the article from the various languages.
>
> As it seems this article has been classified as a hoax (and deleted)
> earlier in the englisch wikipedia, see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/The_Flowers_Of_Romance
>
> In the meanwhile the article has been recreated in the english wikipedia,
> see [[en:The Flowers of Romance (band 2)]].
>
>
> Regards
> Michael
>
> --
>       It's an insane world, but i'm proud to be a part of it. -- Bill Hicks
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
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POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: epzachte at chello.nl

subject:
[Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation in 5 years - Giant
	brainstorming - a game with rules.

body:
Five years from now:

Finally animated versions of all board members are available, to read any mediawiki text to you aloud.
New gestures coming soon. Whenever you whisper 'wikimedia' your favourite board member pops up,
and asks you where you would have liked to go yesterday, if yesterday would have been today
(a workaround, so long as a copyright infringement lawsuit is still pending). Out of sheer mockery
the animated board member does his/hers best to impersonate a paperclip.

A well-known software vendor also experiments with an animated text reader for its
very multimediocre encyclopaedia. The character has a short beard, and sometimes stops
in the middle of a sentence, turns his eyes towards the future and murmurs "Free Willy".
A patch has been announced that changes this to "Free Mandela".
Out of even sheerer mockery hackers replace the character with a semi-nude guy
carrying a globe on his shoulder with all kinds of funny symbols on it.

Erik Zachte


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Nikola Smolenski wrote:

>
>I see two ways of doing this: either converting language files to something
>(be it TMX, .po or something else), editing them, and converting them back
>to .php, or converting MediaWiki to use gettext and .po files directly. The
>latter might even be faster for smaller installations (and availability of
>gettext is not a problem now that php-gettext exists) - should it be done?
>
Hoi,
 From your answer I understand that you do not apreciate what TMX is.
TMX is a manner in which you store what is called a "translation
memory", it allows you to make use of this translation memory when you
have to redo this translation when changes have occurred or when similar
content is to be translated. Consequently the use of TMX is applicable
in tools for translators; in itself it is not a format that allows for
editing.

Consequently, the idea that it is "faster" for smaller installations
misses the point completely. This may be true when software and its user
interface is set in stone while we all know that this is not the case.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Delirium wrote:

> I do agree something other than "Macedonian Slavs" would be good.
> "Macedonian (nationality)" has been proposed on one of the talk pages
> and seems relatively neutral (since the ancient Macedonians weren't
> part of a "nationality" by a modern definition, and the modern Greek
> Macedonians are a component of the Greek nationity, not a separate
> nationality).

"Nation" is often an ambiguous term.  The tendency in English is to
equate it with a particular state or country,  but it can sometimes
represent other groups that see themselves as distinct cultural entities
without political independence.

Ec


from_name: Sergey Samoylov

subject: [Wikitech-l] Images dump

body:
Hi everybody!
I decided to install pictures for my wiki site. But dump of images which I
saw approximately a month ago, was disappeared now. I would like to know can
I still download it from somewhere? And why was it removed from
http://download.wikimedia.org/?
Thanks
Sergey


from_name: Ryan Norton

body:
On Monday, August 29, 2005, at 11:35  PM, Mark Ryan wrote:

> It is possible to change the footer text within Mailman. What should I
> change it to? Just make the last line say "To subscribe visit
> http..."? Because mine shows links, but I think it's just Gmail
> automatically linking the text.
>

You could do the old standard "if you recieved this in error,
unsubscribe here" etc...

Ryan


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Raul's 6th law of Wikipedia confirmed

body:
On Monday, August 29, 2005, at 10:02  PM, Mark Pellegrini wrote:

> I'm more than a little suprised that no one is angry about the fact
> that companies admit to subtle PR-pushing on Wikipedia.

People get pissed all the time at VfD... it just gets deleted :).

Thanks,
RN


subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright situation

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Stan Shebs wrote:
> Alphax wrote:
>>
>> Skyring wrote:
>>
>>> Pete, awarding fifteen minutes of eternal fame to whoever coined that
>>> word "Nazipedia"
>>>
>>
>> *checks archive*
>>
>> On 20/08/2005 16:27, Alphax wrote:
>>
>>> "Stormfront Wikipedia" is unnacceptable on the simple grounds of
>>> trademark infringement. "Stormfrontpedia" would be acceptable.
>>> "Nazipedia" might get them into trouble in whatever juridstiction their
>>> servers are located in :)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> *wins*
>>
> Sorry, Robert Klein used the term a couple years ago, in one
> of his periodic announcements of departure from WP, the complaint
> being that WP was allowing in too much anti-Jewish bias. I guess
> it's a good sign when all the partisans hate you equally... :-)
>

I'm sure it has been used before... NSK used it back it February, but I
think I was the first to use it on-list talking about Pseudodoxia.

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from_name: Mark Pellegrini

body:
I'm more than a little suprised that no one is angry about the fact that
companies admit to subtle PR-pushing on Wikipedia. ("planting of viral
information in entries, modification of entries to point to new
promotional sites or 'leaks' embedded in entries to test diffusion of
information.")  Where's the outrage? Why aren't people upset about this?

--Mark


body:
Well, I'm the admin at nv.wikipedia, and you never contacted me even
though the article existed there.

My suspicion is that your list was incomplete.

And a deletion request doesn't mean it will be deleted -- many of the
requests you have made seem to be on inactive Wikipedias without
administrators, and thus cannot be deleted except by a steward.

Mark

On 30/08/05, Michael Holzt <kju-wp at fqdn.org> wrote:
> > Unfortunately, many of those languages don't have sysops who can
> > delete the page.
>
> Might be. Hoewever i took the list of the different versions and visited
> all of the language versions yesterday. In 38 language versions i made
> Deletion-Requests (where i could find the template, it might be a good idea
> to make {{delete}} available [as a redirect] in _every_ wikipedia) or left a
> notice on the feedback/forum/cafe/whatever. It seems that many have already
> acted upon it.
>
> In 11 more language version the article was already deleted or someone else
> took care. Only in 5 languages i could not find any way to notice the
> admins: br, io, iu, th and yi.
>
> In the meanwhile some anonymous user from Estonia showed up in the VfD for
> [[:en:Tony Blackplait]], the alledged frontman of the band which articles
> contains lists of movies and books who can't be found in catalogues. He/She
> claims that there would be truth in the article and argues that
> mistranslations had occured. I still don't believe that, but there might be
> some more truth in this entries than we first thought. However it seems that
> the criteria for relevance won't be reached anyway so it does not make a
> difference.
>
> Regards
> Michael
>
> --
>       It's an insane world, but i'm proud to be a part of it. -- Bill Hicks
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

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body:
If you think my e-mail was pointless, you're a hypocrite.

Mark

On 30/08/05, Filzstift <filzstift at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well, I'm the admin at nv.wikipedia, and you never contacted me even
> > though the article existed there.
> Do you expect that everybody knows that you're the admin at nv ???
>
> [me is setting spamfilter: each message of Mister Williamson will be
> marked as spam]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

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from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Incremental dumps

body:
Switching dump format from SQL to XML offers a posibility of
very easy incremental dumps.

I did some tests on Polish Wikiquote database dumps (most
wikis have only a single xml dump, pl.q has two).

=== Raw data ===

Full dumps, compressed:
20050713_pages_current.xml.gz  1 105 966
20050814_pages_current.xml.gz  1 187 754
20050713_pages_full.xml.gz     3 796 056
20050814_pages_full.xml.gz     4 213 036

Full dumps, uncompressed:
20050713_pages_current.xml     3 874 225
20050814_pages_current.xml     4 158 544
20050713_pages_full.xml       30 882 758
20050814_pages_full.xml       33 708 595

Diffs -slow, hardly compresses anything:
current.diff                     524 191
current.diff.gz                  134 817 (11.5%)
full.diff                     28 371 190
full.diff.gz                   3 859 489 (91.6%) - I suspect the horrible result is due to the data being reordered

Xdelta (xdeltas are automatically gzipped):
current.xdelta                    92 074 (8.3%)
full.xdelta                      163 110 (4.2%)

gzip and xdelta were called with zlib compression level parameter -9

$ time xdelta delta -9 20050713_pages_current.xml.gz 20050814_pages_current.xml.gz current.delta
real    0m1.023s
user    0m0.548s
sys     0m0.124s
$ time xdelta delta -9 20050713_pages_full.xml 20050814_pages_full.xml full.delta
real    0m3.749s
user    0m1.731s
sys     0m0.217s

=== Conclusion ===

We should simply generate xdeltas every time a dump is generated.
It cuts the amount of data that needs to be transferred,
easy to add to the backup script, extremely fast, available everywhere,
and standard enough.

I doubt other compression methods (DTD-aware XML-deltas or whatever)
will be significantly better than that, and if they are, it's
certainly going to cost a lot more effort than simply using xdelta.


from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

subject: [Foundation-l] a crazy idea...

body:
Hi all,

When I thought about some of the latest discussions on the list and
meta-wiki here, I had a little crazy idea.

The Wikimedia Foundation website was created a few months ago because we
wanted something clean and clear to present to outside visitors. People
shouldn't have to dive in the mess on meta-wiki for getting information
about Wikimedia.

However, this plan didn't work out in my opinion. WMF wiki isn't
regularly updated, people aren't sure what should be on meta and what on
wmf, content is duplicated on meta-wiki, translations have to be
regularly moved from meta to the wmf wiki and so on.

In my opinion, there are three options:
* we can continue like this and try to make the best out of it
* we can drastically reduce the number of pages on WMF, limit the
translations and make it a very simple information site (similar to what
was done on http://www.wikimedia.de, the german associations site)
* or we can reunify meta-wiki and the WMF wiki under
http://www.wikimedia.org

Before some of you call now "impossible", I'd like you to think about
it. We've managed to build an encyclopedia which is visited by thousands
of people daily in a wiki. Of course, sometimes you find goatze on the
main page - that's wikipedia. If an open wiki is acceptable for the most
famous encyclopedia on the internet, it isn't for the little
organization behind? Do we really need a classical website, with all its
failures? Can't we just be proud of what we do and say: Yes, we build an
encyclopedia in a wiki - and our organisation website is a wiki, too.

and as wikipedia proves, you can organize a wiki in a way that visitors
are able to find the stuff they want to know - professional looking
mainpage etc. It just has to be done, and I think the community of
wikimedians which is populating meta-wiki is now big enough to do this.
  Important and official pages can be protected, inofficial opinion
pages can be marked with templates...

If we want something not to be known, it should be done in a closed wiki
anyway - as the google case has shown, the press isn't able to
differentiate anyway between something said officially on the WMF
website and something on a page on meta. There are multiple ways to make
clear what is official or not, to lead the press to specifically
dedicated pages while also providing different information for the wiki
experienced community. And if a reporter finds the "List of wikipedians
by favoured ice-cream flavour", so what? that's our community.

Test wikipedias would be moved from meta to somewhere else, as well as
the mediawiki documentation (there is now a dedicated mediawiki wiki) to
not clutter up recentchanges anymore.

Unifying meta and wmf would also help to bridge the slowly growing gap
between the community and the organisation Wikimedia. Since Wikimedia
depends on the work of volunteers, I see this as a rather dangerous
thing. It more and more becomes "they and us" while it should be "we".

Last but not least I have to admin, that I feel that there are simply
too many wikis and websites to keep track. On my list (incomplete):
* german wikipedia, english wikipedia, commons, mediawiki wiki,
developer wiki, meta-wiki, german board wiki, german wikimedia website,
wikimedia foundation website, chapter wiki, grants wiki (as good as
closed), otrs

So, I propose this for consideration and for discussing the idea to
death, as usual ;-)

greetings,
elian


subject: [Foundation-l] a crazy idea...


from_name: ATL

subject: [Wikitech-l] 1.5rc3 pre tag with style attributes in templates

body:
I am asking about rules for using the pre tag in templates, specifically as it
pertains to the style attribute?

1.4.8 templates using the pre tag and style attribute allowed style changes
and this no longer works in 1.5rc3 without modifying parser.php to ignore pre
in the strip routine.  Without modification the style attribute is removed
from a pre tag in a template.

I have been searching for the specific code that changed to disable the style
attribute.  The parser appears to handle the pre tag in the same manner.
Could it be that the template is handled differently?

It is interesting that replacing pre tag with the div tag in the same template
does work, but of course the results are very different.

Why is style attribute disabled for pre and not for div?

For example,

Template:YCB   (short for yellow code box)

{{{1}}}

DirSample
The following shows simple program execution.
{{YCB|1=<nowiki>
[atl at donald lt]$ ls
hw  sw
</nowiki>}}

A little help to point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.


from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Foundation in 5 years - Giant
 brainstorming - a game with rules.

body:
epzachte at chello.nl wrote:
> Five years from now:
>
> Finally animated versions of all board members are available, to read any mediawiki text to you aloud.
> New gestures coming soon. Whenever you whisper 'wikimedia' your favourite board member pops up,
> and asks you where you would have liked to go yesterday, if yesterday would have been today
> (a workaround, so long as a copyright infringement lawsuit is still pending). Out of sheer mockery
> the animated board member does his/hers best to impersonate a paperclip.
>
> A well-known software vendor also experiments with an animated text reader for its
> very multimediocre encyclopaedia. The character has a short beard, and sometimes stops
> in the middle of a sentence, turns his eyes towards the future and murmurs "Free Willy".
> A patch has been announced that changes this to "Free Mandela".
> Out of even sheerer mockery hackers replace the character with a semi-nude guy
> carrying a globe on his shoulder with all kinds of funny symbols on it.
>
> Erik Zachte

I am repeating myself

"but no-one is allowed to criticize/comment on other people's 5-year
plan on this list."

"but no-one is allowed to criticize/comment on other people's 5-year
plan on this list."

"but no-one is allowed to criticize/comment on other people's 5-year
plan on this list."

"but no-one is allowed to criticize/comment on other people's 5-year
plan on this list."

"but no-one is allowed to criticize/comment on other people's 5-year
plan on this list."

"but no-one is allowed to criticize/comment on other people's 5-year
plan on this list."

"but no-one is allowed to criticize/comment on other people's 5-year
plan on this list."

"but no-one is allowed to criticize/comment on other people's 5-year
plan on this list."

Tough.


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] scn.wiki

body:
Yes, but if the user isn't aware of that constraint, would they be
aware of the reverse?

Pippu didn't say that it was just him, he said "we", so it seems that
his sentiment is shared by all scn.wikipedians.

What about some Wikipedias making corners round? Obviously, not all
users like that.

What if a Wikipedia decides to change default font, or make all text
pink and bold-italic by default?

Certainly, it's their choice, and stylistic changes have in the past been made.

Mark

On 30/08/05, Jean-Denis Vauguet <jd at apinc.org> wrote:
> Pawe? Dembowski a ?crit :
>
> >>Now to my question.  We recently noted that some wikis have set
> >>themselves up so that their internal hypertext links are not
> >>underlined (I think ca.wiki is one off the top of my head).  Is that
> >>something easy to do?  We in scn.wiki land think that it looks
> >>better not being underlined.  Anyone got any ideas for us?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Well, I prefer underlined links because when two links are next to
> >each other you can distinguish between them more easily. Anyway,
> >anyone can set it in their user preferences.
> >
> >
> >
> Well, if you want to force that behavior on your whole wiki, you can
> edit MediaWiki:monobook.css (assuming your running a wiki with monobook
> style) and add a rule on this model :
>
> a { text-decoration: none; }
>
> But, any user can do such thing with one's monobook.css (in
> User:name/monobook.css). Forcing the behavior or the style at a general
> level may be a bad idea because it creates a constraint the user is not
> aware of. One could prefer another way to organize things than yours.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Improvement request: redirect, synonyms,
	fuzzy system (ENG/ITA)

body:
"In most languages" is not true.

The majority of the world's languages do not have gender.

This includes:

Chinese
Japanese
Korean
English
...

all major languages in the world, and relatively major on Wikipedia as
well. Of these 4, only one of them has number, English.

So creating redirects for different forms of a word is not a concern
for "most" languages.

Mark

On 30/08/05, Valentina Faussone <valentina_faussone at yahoo.it> wrote:
> Dear WikiTech ML,
>
> I'd like to ask wiki programmers a wiki-software
> improvment. Since now if we have two words that means
> the same we have to write the article for one of them
> and redirect to that article the other:
> ex. States or US or USA redirect to United States of
> America
>
> That force wiki writers to create tons of boring
> redirects (one by one) both for:
> 1) real redirects (diffrent way to say the same thing)
> ex. Soia cheese redirect to Tofu
> 2) synonyms (different word to means the same thing)
> ex. Gauffres and Waffles
> 3) most likely errors (wrong words whose meaning is
> guessable)
> ex. State for States.
> That means that "equivalent expressions", synonyms,
> errors  have to be handled in the same way.
>
> I suggest it would be easy and more effective to have:
> A) REDIRECT tag
> B) SYNONYMS list to be writed at the very end of the
> article
> C) a (I suppose it's the right name) Fuzzy System that
> grab the correct meaning from your typing errors -
> like Google "Maybe you're looking for..."
>
> That will help those who write, those who search and
> those who write again using correct synonyms. The
> lasts can link to an existing article the most easy
> way
> ex. If I write an article "Waffle" with an active
> Synonyms list with "Gauffre", you can write your
> article using [[Gauffre]] insted of
> ? writing [[Gauffre]] in your article
> ? Opening it
> ? writing #REDIRECT [[Waffle]]
> and doing the same for plural form.
>
> Plus, in most language you have to handle singular and
> plural form of feminin, neutrum or masculin genus of
> words...
> ex. I'm writing an Italian article for Beignets. I
> have to write redirect for:
> ? Bign?
> ? Bign?
> ? Bignole
> ? Choux (al correct forms for the same thing).
> Plus singular forms
> ? Beignet
> ? Bignola
> That is to say 7 redirect... that can be a simple
> active list at the end of the main article.
> A fuzzy system wiil help to work out  bigne e bigne'
> for those who shearch and don't know what accented e
> is to be used or if the wiki system will accept
> accents.
>
> Hoping it will be possible,
>
> Best regards,
>
> Valentina Faussone
>
> --------------------------
>
> Gent. WikiTech ML,
>
> Vorrei chiedere ai programmatori del software wiki una
> miglioria. Ora come ora se abbiamo due parole che
> significano la stessa cosa dobbiamo scrivere il nostro
> articolo per una delle due e fare un redirect dalla
> seconda verso la prima:
> ex. States o US o USA reindirizzano verso Stati Uniti
> d'America
>
> Questo obbliga a creare tonnellate di noiosissimi
> redirect (uno per uno) per:
> 1) reindirizzamenti reali, cio? espressioni
> lignuistiche diverse che significano la medesima cosa
> ex. Formaggio di Soia reindirizza su Tofu
> 2) Sinonimi, cio? parole diverse, ugualmente corrette,
> che indicano lo stesso oggetto
> ex. Gauffres e Waffles
> 3) Errori comuni, cio? parole errate il cui
> significato ? comunque intuibile
> ex. State al posto di States per indicare gli USA
> Ci? significa che espressioni equivalenti, sinonimi e
> errori comuni di battitura vanno trattati nello stesso
> modo.
>
> Suggerisco che sarebbe pi? facile e produttivo avere:
> A) il tag REDIRECT
> B) i SINONIMI gestiti come lista da inserire alla fine
> di ogni articolo
> C) un sistema Fuzzy (spero che il nome sia giusto) che
> intuisca il significato inteso anche dagli errori, sul
> tipo di quello di Google "Forse stavi cercando..."
>
> Questo aiuterebbe chi scrive, chi effettua una ricerca
> e chi scrive dopo il "primo" articolo di un dato
> argomento a scrivere e linkare con maggior facilit?
> sinonimi corretti.
> ex. se scrivo un articolo "Waffle" (? un tipo di
> dolce) e posso inserire un sinonimo attivo alla fine
> dell'articolo come "Gauffres", tu puoi scrivere il tuo
> articolo linkando tanto [[Waffle]] quanto [[Gauffre]]
> ed arrivare all'articolo principale, invece di:
> ? scrivere [[Gauffre]] nel tuo articolo
> ? Aprirlo
> ? Scrivere #REDIRECT [[Waffle]]
> ? Fare lo stesso per eventuali altri sinonimi e per
> tutti i plurali
>
> Inoltre in molte lingue si deve tenere conto non solo
> delle forme singolari e plurali, ma anche dei generi
> femminile, maschile e neutro...
> ex. Sto scrivendo un articolo sui Beignets. Dovrei
> scrivere un redirect per:
> ? Bign?
> ? Bign?
> ? Bignole
> ? Choux (tutte forme ugualmente accreditate della
> medesima cosa)
> Inoltre dovrei inserire anche le forme singolari,
> ovvero
> ? Beignet
> ? Bignola
>
> 7 redirect che potrebbero benissimo essere una lista
> alla fine dello stesso articolo principale. Un sistema
> Fuzzy aiuterebbe a gestire le voci bigne e bigne' per
> quelli che, cercando, non sapessero se il sistema
> accetta gli accenti, o quale e accentata usare.
>
> Sperando che questo sia possibile,
> I migliori saluti,
>
> Valentina Faussone
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
> http://mail.yahoo.it
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Legal paranoia

body:
On 8/6/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
> Michael Turley wrote:
>
> >Their choice of what articles to include is a very significant part of
> their
> >content.
> >
> How do you measure "significant"? If their articles average 1,000
> words each we're talking about less than 1/10 of 1 percent.

It doesn't take much court watching to know that "significant" is not
decided by percentage. If you were to print and give away individual still
frames from a copyright movie, you'd be using an even lower percentage of
the work, yet you'd still lose a copyright infringement action. Disney does
quite good business selling individual stills from their movies. I don't
remember but they may have started doing so after successfully suing someone
else for doing it.

I don't think "significant" is something you can measure objectively. You
have to look at each case, the creativity involved in making the work, and
the specific purpose that the fair use claimant uses it under.

In this case, the fact that the other party is competing in the same product
market, and that we're using their work to improve our competing product
means we have to be even more cautious.

As you say, the courts don't try to restrict competition, but they do frown
on people trying to compete with a copyright holder by using the copyright
holder's own work. That is the very purpose of copyright.

I think the founders were right in granting limited copyright terms, but if
you think the current courts favor competition over copyright, please review
the consititutionality review of the recent copyright extension laws.
"Competition" and "common good" are not high on the current court system's
list of goals.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused