from_name: James Hare

subject: [Wikipedia-l] News to me

body:
You mean the Internets.

On 12/1/06, Death Phoenix <originaldeathphoenix at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey, if we have someone inventing the Internet...
>
> On 11/30/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I didn't realize Danny Mayer was a cofounder of Wikipedia. You learn
> > something new every day!
> >
> > From: "Adriana Iwashko" <IwashkoA at newschool.edu>
> > To: < artdesignstudies at newsite.newschool.edu>
> > Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:04:36 -0500
> > Subject: Open Source- The Vera List Center for Art and Politics
> > Panel Discussion
> > "Open Source: On the Line"
> > Monday, December 4, 2006 - 6:30 p.m.
> > The New School, Theresa Lang Community and Student Center
> > 55 West 13th Street, 2nd floor
> > New York City
> > Admission: $8, free for all students, as well as members of
> > Rhizome.org<http://rhizome.org/>
> > and New School faculty, staff and alumni with valid ID
> >
> > Panelists:
> > Cory Arcangel, artist
> > Joy Garnett, artist
> > Patrick May, Director of Technology, Rhizome.org <http://rhizome.org/>
> > Daniel Mayer, Co-founder, Wikipedia
> > Laura Quilter, Founder, Fair Use Network
> >
> > Moderator:
> > Christiane Paul, Adjunct Curator of New Media Arts, The Whitney Museum
> > of American Art
> >
> > A panel on the aesthetic and political possibilities afforded by open
> > source systems, and related debates around copyright and intellectual
> > property.
> >
> > The panelists will examine sites like Wikipedia and
> > Digg.com<http://digg.com/>as well as
> > p2p networks and social networking sites, and the practices and
> > challenges inherent to each. They will also explore artworks, arts
> > institutions, and businesses that have sought to adopt open source
> > models, and touch on current challenges to the continuation of this
> > ethos such as "net neutrality" legislation.
> >
> > Organized by Rhizome, in association with the Vera List Center for Art
> > and Politics.
> >
> > This event is presented as part of the Vera List Center's program
> > cycle on "The Public Domain," and on occasion of Rhizome's tenth
> > anniversary.
> >
> >
> > UPCOMING EVENTS:
> >
> > Friday, December 1, 2006 - 6:00 and 8:00 p.m.
> > "AIDS and the Politics of Science"
> > "Beyond Lament: AIDS and the Arts"
> > 2 panels commemorating World AIDS Day, and the 25th anniversary of
> > epidemic's beginning, organized by the Wolfson Center for National
> > Affairs
> >
> > Wednesday, December 6, - 7:00 p.m.
> > "Image Ownership and Usage in the Digital Age"
> > Wednesday, December 6, 2006 - 7:00 p.m.
> >
> > With Michelle Bogre, Parsons The New School for Design
> > Richard Ellis, Senior Vice President, Getty Images
> > Barbara Hoffman, Arts and Intellectual Property Lawyer
> >
> > Presented as part of the Aperture Foundation's series "Confounding
> > Expectations: Photography in Context."
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
On 12/1/06, Luiz Augusto <lugusto at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, dejavu isn't yet supported in the ProofreadPage extension. This
> extension is used to proofreading works at Wikisource.
> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:Side_by_side_image_view_for_proofreading
> http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7957
> <small>http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7534</small>

Um. ProofreadPage doesn't support any form of "multiple page in one
document" ...  because thats just not how it works, AFAIK (it just
uses transclusion).  It also doesn't support djvu files because we
don't yet server-side convert them, nor can your browser display them,
nor do we emit the embedded object stuff to call up the plugin. TIFF
would be in exactly the same boat.


from_name: George Herbert

subject: [Wikitech-l] Strange issue with article [[Lifting body]] on en

body:
I am getting a strange problem with [[Lifting body]] on en.wikipedia (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_body ); the article has history,
talk page, etc., but any attempt to go right to it gives the "This
article does not exist" page.

DB burp?  Cache problem?

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert at gmail.com


list: foundation-l

from_name: Fred Bauder

subject:
[Foundation-l] heavily biased BS (Fwd: [Wikizh-l]
	Chinese-language Wikipedia presents different view of history)

body:
On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:42 AM, roc wrote:

> now it is on NYT as well.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/01/world/asia/01wikipedia.html. very
> sad such an article get published there. -roc

About time someone on the outside noticed censored articles. Content
dispute, indeed!

Fred


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikien-l

from_name: Ryan Wetherell

subject:
[WikiEN-l] oh joy, oh rapture,
	oh bliss: the userbox wars are reignited

body:
Oh, thank goodness.

On 12/1/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was kidding. But imagine at the bottom of an article instead of just
> listing the categories it belonged to in "boring" text each category had its
> own pretty colored box with some goofy icon.
>
> That would be AWESOME.
>
> Again, I'm not being serious.
>
> On 12/1/06, Ryan Wetherell <renardius at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Could you elaborate?
> >
> > --Ryan
> >
> > On 12/1/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think Wikipedia would be better if categories were done in the style
> > of
> > > userboxen.
> > >
> > > On 11/30/06, David Ashby <humble.fool at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 11/30/06, Steve Summit <scs at eskimo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > And what better tie-in than Naziism.
> > > > > > Mike Godwin would laugh and laugh...
> > > > On 11/30/06, Ryan Wetherell <renardius at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I think I'll be deleting my political-geared userboxes, just to be
> > safe.
> > > >
> > > > I'm up for deleting all userboxes, but that's neither here nor there.
> > > >
> > > > -humblefool


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
Wow... just wow.

--Ryan

On 12/1/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/12/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In any case, you can write whatever you want on your own wiki.. We'll
> > even give you the software. :)
>
>
> One of the standard emails I get is people asking if such-and-such a
> site is run by us, because it looks JUST LIKE WIKIPEDIA!
>
> And by the way, even the Neo-Nazis have a wiki, WN Wiki, but it seems
> to have floundered - see
> http://www.vnnforum.com/printthread.php?t=27152 (warning: Neo-Nazi
> forum) .
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Time for preformatted empty articles?

body:
Yep, after the Siegenthaler incident, IIRC.

--Ryan

On 12/1/06, dmehkeri at swi.com <dmehkeri at swi.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Don't recall how long ago that was disabled.
>
> Oh, I do. About a year ago, wasn't it.
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
I was kidding. But imagine at the bottom of an article instead of just
listing the categories it belonged to in "boring" text each category had its
own pretty colored box with some goofy icon.

That would be AWESOME.

Again, I'm not being serious.

On 12/1/06, Ryan Wetherell <renardius at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Could you elaborate?
>
> --Ryan
>
> On 12/1/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think Wikipedia would be better if categories were done in the style
> of
> > userboxen.
> >
> > On 11/30/06, David Ashby <humble.fool at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 11/30/06, Steve Summit <scs at eskimo.com> wrote:
> > > > > And what better tie-in than Naziism.
> > > > > Mike Godwin would laugh and laugh...
> > > On 11/30/06, Ryan Wetherell <renardius at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I think I'll be deleting my political-geared userboxes, just to be
> safe.
> > >
> > > I'm up for deleting all userboxes, but that's neither here nor there.
> > >
> > > -humblefool
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject:
[Foundation-l] semi-on-topic regarding
 the	Serbo-Croato-Bosnio-Montenegrin language

body:
David Gerard schreef:
> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/You_Know_You%27re_Croatian_When
>
>
> - d.
Hoi,
I am afraid it is a bit off topic ..
GerardM


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
Same with Wikipedia contributors. Take a break, people!

On 12/1/06, Mark Wagner <carnildo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/30/06, Rich Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > It will be interesting if the one thing to last out of Watterson's comic
> > is the word "Calvinball".
> >
> > I loved that comic. Too bad he retired.
>
> A good cartoonist knows when to retire.  A bad cartoonist keeps
> turning out the same old thing, year after year.
>
> --
> Mark
> [[User:Carnildo]]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Rob Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw at armory.com> wrote:

>
> Free speech is my birthright as a human being--I do not need to be "allowed"
> to speak freely; I am entitled to do so by the mere fact of my existence!
>
> --
> Kurt Weber

The wording is, "All men are endowed by thier Creator with certain
unalienable rights, among these....[enumerated]."

Question is, how can atheists who deny thier Creator gave them rights,
claim to have free speech, etc.

Nobs01


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] External storage consistency error

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A problem was reported to us today which I have tracked down to a
configuration consistency problem.

First some background:

We use "external storage" servers to store the bulk of page text
contents for Wikimedia's wikis. These are web servers where we make use
of otherwise unused disk space by sticking on a copy of MySQL and
storing compressed text blobs.

For reliability, they come in clusters, using MySQL's replication. So if
one dies, we can shuffle them about with no loss of data.

New pages get saved into the most recent one or two ES clusters, and
every once in a while we close an old one off and add a new one on the end.

The current write clusters are cluster8 and cluster9. The DB master for
cluster8 was srv89, which had recently had some problems: it was
apparently overloaded, and didn't respond to login attempts.

On November 28, we had it rebooted, but it didn't come back online.
Cluster8 was reshuffled, with the master moved to srv87.

At about 22:30 UTC, srv89 came back online. Unfortunately this meant
that its web server came online as well, and apparently made it back
into the load balancing pool -- but with old copies of the MediaWiki
configuration.

srv89's MediaWiki still had the configuration files telling it to save
text blobs into the external storage server on... srv89, itself.

So, some portion of pages saved during an hour or so had their items
saved into srv89 instead of srv87. When other web servers then came to
read the pages back, they read from srv87 or its clone srv88, and
received a _different page_ with the _same blob ID number_.

The good news is that the data is probably recoverable, on this procedure:
* For each wiki, list blobs which differ between srv87 and srv88
* For each mismatched blob, locate the two (or more) revisions using it
* Disambiguate them somehow... (probably mostly automatable... i hope!)
* Copy the srv88 blobs onto srv87, and reassign the revisions to the
appropriate new blob ID numbers

I'm not sure how many pages are affected, but it appears to be 25 edits
on fr.wikipedia.org, so perhaps a few hundred overall.

This could most likely have been avoided by forcing web servers to sync
their MediaWiki configurations before starting Apache on boot.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFcMQcwRnhpk1wk44RAgp0AKDgCNa8JWjmGmK0QhSuloQMYLPjdgCglhf6
uPsFhWJFxhXuvOFUdLzlgPE=
=HhJ5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Caricatures ,
	fair use photographs and illustratice comics

body:
Then both licenses should apply. But this is pretty clearly a derivative,
not aggregate work.

On 12/1/06, Anthony <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/06, the wub <thewub.wiki at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Much as I hate meaningless fuss over copyright, aren't these comics
> > incorrectly licensed? The text is directly taken from Wikipedia articles
> -
> > presumably under the GFDL. But the images are licensed as CC-BY-SA, with
> no
> > reference to either the GFDL or fair use.
> >
> > That aside, they are quite brilliant.
> >
> > the wub
>
> Presumably text and images under different licenses can be combined to
> form an aggregate work.  Wikipedia articles do this all the time.
>
> Anthony
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Kurt Maxwell Weber

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On Friday 01 December 2006 03:23, Jim Schuler wrote:
>
> I don't see removing libel as censorship -- libel falls under the category
> of "crying fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire", thus it is not
> free speech as intended by any constitution that allows free speech.

The US Constitution does not "allow" free speech.

I'd be mighty pissed off if any government got so uppity as to think it had
the authority to "allow" free speech.

Free speech is my birthright as a human being--I do not need to be "allowed"
to speak freely; I am entitled to do so by the mere fact of my existence!

--
Kurt Weber
<kmw at armory.com>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20061201/088306df/attachment.pgp


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Startup looking for Superstar Wiki Developer (SF
 Bay	Area)

body:
This is a *new town*. If you *open* then we can *party*. Are you a
*camper*? If you are a *silly cow* we will *dance* and show you our
*surprising toys*!

(Horse, dead, etc...)

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 569 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20061201/41fec2a5/attachment.pgp>


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brion Vibber wrote:
> The current write clusters are cluster8 and cluster9. The DB master for
> cluster8 was srv89, which had recently had some problems: it was
> apparently overloaded, and didn't respond to login attempts.
>
> On November 28, we had it rebooted, but it didn't come back online.
> Cluster8 was reshuffled, with the master moved to srv87.

[Please swap srv87 and srv88 in the previous message. srv88 is the new
master, srv87 the slave. srv89 is still the broken one. ;)]

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFcMdQwRnhpk1wk44RAkqoAJ99z6HmSia8EVXN/DC/w58Wue5v0wCgoh7G
Wenw3DisRh8utD9ahcP3b4I=
=vmBq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: dmehkeri at swi.com

body:
> >Maybe the preformat should appear only when an IP address creates a page...

> Except that IPs can't create pages in the main namespace. :p

Huh, you don't say... well, when are we going to fix that?

> Don't recall how long ago that was disabled.

Oh, I do. About a year ago, wasn't it.

Cheers,
Dan


from_name: Rory Stolzenberg

body:
On 12/1/06, the wub <thewub.wiki at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Much as I hate meaningless fuss over copyright, aren't these comics
> incorrectly licensed? The text is directly taken from Wikipedia articles -
> presumably under the GFDL. But the images are licensed as CC-BY-SA, with
> no
> reference to either the GFDL or fair use.
>
> That aside, they are quite brilliant.
>
> the wub
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

I don't think he's actually copying and pasting the text into the images.
He's using the ideas, yes, but those can't be copyrighted.


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brion Vibber wrote:
> So, some portion of pages saved during an hour or so had their items
> saved into srv89 instead of srv87. When other web servers then came to
> read the pages back, they read from srv87 or its clone srv88, and
> received a _different page_ with the _same blob ID number_.

Three other down web servers were brought up at the same time, with the
same bad configuration. I've resynced them all now, so there should be
no more things falling into the wrong server.

Will try to have the broken ones recovered tonight or tomorrow.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFcMnrwRnhpk1wk44RAlrJAKCHwGYF0jQcZiFYlmg2Q/EqzhmhhwCgk3XH
F1TEWo/MHFYjO5SyCIzUvRY=
=USPL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Luiz Augusto

subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
On 12/1/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]

The best format for this is dejavu, which we support, but we don't
> have support for either the browser plugins or serverside
> autoconversion.
>
> The only advantage I see for tiff is that some of the browser plugins
> have nice navigation abilities.. but the same is true for dejavu... if
> we're going to put something up that needs a browser plugin it should
> be the free software solution. Dejavu  also happens to have MUCH
> better compression, and it would also be an acceptable lossy solution
> for photographs as well.. better than jpeg.

Sorry, dejavu isn't yet supported in the ProofreadPage extension. This
extension is used to proofreading works at Wikisource.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:Side_by_side_image_view_for_proofreading
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7957
<small>http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7534</small>


from_name: Rob Church

subject: [Wikitech-l] block titles extension

body:
On 01/12/06, Travis Derouin <travis at wikihow.com> wrote:
> I added a simple extension that provides the ability to prevent articles
> with certain title names from being saved or created. A spam problem we have
> on wikiHow - which appears to be coming from a bot - is that several
> articles are created with URLs for title names. This is a pretty straight
> forward way of preventing this:

To make this more useful for larger sites, e.g. Wikipedia, might I suggest...

1. Taking the blacklist out of a database table which can be managed
through a special page
2. Providing a user permission that allows overriding the blacklist
(might not be used on some sites, but it would be useful to have the
option in advance)

Rob Church


subject: [Wikitech-l] restrict read/write to certain pages

body:
On 01/12/06, Uwe Brauer <oub at mat.ucm.es> wrote:
> This might be a question against the spirit of wiki, but is it possible
> to restrict the write and  *read* access to certain pages on a wiki?
> By restrict I mean only the sysop can see and edit these pages.

Wrong list again; use mediawiki-l.

But the answer, as far as MediaWiki goes, is simple. "Sort of". There
are no per-page access restrictions, but using the following...

$wgWhitelistRead = array( "-", "Main Page", "Special:Userlogin", ... );
$wgGroupPermissions["*"]["read"] = false;

...and altering the contents of the whitelist will allow you to block
reads for all anonymous users, except for the named pages.

Rob Church


from_name: Jim Schuler

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> Rob wrote:
> > This is an absurd comparison.  Rational people are completely capable
> > of distinguishing between normal partisan politics and a group which
> > advocates mass extermination.
>
> And furthermore, and this is important in this particular example,
> rational people are completely capable of distinguishing between someone
> with sincerely held but deeply misguided beliefs or attitudes who is
> sincerely trying to nevertheless work well with others to create a fair
> encyclopedic set of articles on difficult topics, and someone who is
> just slapping stuff on a userpage to try to yank people's chains.
>
> This is not a case of censorship of the poor repressed Nazis.  This is a
> simple simple simple case of blocking a troll and moving on with life
> without worrying about it.
>
> --Jimbo

No disrespect, Jimmy, but I don't think anyone was defending Nazis.  It
seems to me that some of us were attempting to hold a philosophical
discussion on a broader topic, not a topical conversation on the banning of
one person.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/06, Jim Schuler <jim62sch at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/30/06, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 11/30/06, Jim Schuler <jim62sch at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Some day I'll remember not to post philosophical points here.  I
> simply
> > > > don't have the time to explain how fear and ignorance are the
> catalyst
> > > > for censorship.
> > >
> > > And when we remove personal attacks, vandalism, or libel, are we
> > > censoring as well?
> >
> > In answer to this strawman: libel is is illegal, personal attacks are
> > covered under the TOS, and vandalism speaks for itself.
>
> Hardly a strawman.  Removing vandalism, libel, and personal attacks
> are normal, widely accepted rules in a semi-public or private sphere
> such as Wikipedia and necessary for WP to function as a usable and
> relatively non-offensive workspace for rational adults to contribute
> to the project.  I would argue that removing pro-Nazi propaganda or
> statements advocating Nazisim falls into the same category as the
> other rules.

And none of that had anything to do with what I said, nor was it anything I
argued against.  As I noted, I will remember (memo to self) not to try to
engage in philosophical discussions here -- they are clearly not welcome.  A
shame really, as we are engaged in the writing of an encyclopedia here, an
avocation I had assumed to be academic in nature.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Jim Schuler <jim62sch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Rob wrote:
> > > This is an absurd comparison.  Rational people are completely capable
> > > of distinguishing between normal partisan politics and a group which
> > > advocates mass extermination.
> >
> > And furthermore, and this is important in this particular example,
> > rational people are completely capable of distinguishing between someone
> > with sincerely held but deeply misguided beliefs or attitudes who is
> > sincerely trying to nevertheless work well with others to create a fair
> > encyclopedic set of articles on difficult topics, and someone who is
> > just slapping stuff on a userpage to try to yank people's chains.
> >
> > This is not a case of censorship of the poor repressed Nazis.  This is a
> > simple simple simple case of blocking a troll and moving on with life
> > without worrying about it.
> >
> > --Jimbo
>
>
> No disrespect, Jimmy, but I don't think anyone was defending Nazis.  It
> seems to me that some of us were attempting to hold a philosophical
> discussion on a broader topic, not a topical conversation on the banning
> of
> one person.

Funny, because it seemed like people setting up absurd strawmen and burning
them and talking about how evil and genocidal governments and organized
religions are, which seems astoundingly off topic for the Wikipedia mailing
list.

But I could be wrong.


body:
On 12/1/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/2/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was kidding. But imagine at the bottom of an article instead of just
> > listing the categories it belonged to in "boring" text each category had
> its
> > own pretty colored box with some goofy icon.
> >
> > That would be AWESOME.
> >
> > Again, I'm not being serious.
>
> May not be a bad idea. Something similar happens elsewiki with portals:
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouvement_des_d%C3%A9mocrates_socialistes
>
> Note the two portal links down the bottom. Is there a reason we don't
> do this? Personally I never ever see portals, because I never come in
> the front door. Does anyone use portals?
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

We have Template:Portal, which is linked to at the general topic pages for
which there's a portal.


body:
On 12/1/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Seeing as we have <ref> tags and since references seems to be the
> prevailing
> > name in the articles I visit, ==References== appears the logical choice.
>
> What about sources of information which are not "referenced" as such.
> That is, a site where some of the information came from, but which was
> not cited at the paragraph or sentence level?
>

Those go in ==References== sections too. It's not just for cite.php...


from_name: Uwe Brauer

body:
Hello

This might be a question against the spirit of wiki, but is it possible
to restrict the write and  *read* access to certain pages on a wiki?
By restrict I mean only the sysop can see and edit these pages.

Thanks

Uwe Brauer


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
Jim Schuler wrote:
> On 12/1/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>> Rob wrote:
>>> This is an absurd comparison.  Rational people are completely capable
>>> of distinguishing between normal partisan politics and a group which
>>> advocates mass extermination.
>> And furthermore, and this is important in this particular example,
>> rational people are completely capable of distinguishing between someone
>> with sincerely held but deeply misguided beliefs or attitudes who is
>> sincerely trying to nevertheless work well with others to create a fair
>> encyclopedic set of articles on difficult topics, and someone who is
>> just slapping stuff on a userpage to try to yank people's chains.
>>
>> This is not a case of censorship of the poor repressed Nazis.  This is a
>> simple simple simple case of blocking a troll and moving on with life
>> without worrying about it.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>
>
> No disrespect, Jimmy, but I don't think anyone was defending Nazis.  It
> seems to me that some of us were attempting to hold a philosophical
> discussion on a broader topic, not a topical conversation on the banning of
> one person.

Right, me too. :)  The point is, if the broad philosophical question is
"Do we ban people for merely holding unpleasant or unpopular beliefs?"
then the answer is "no, we never have, and there seems to be very little
support for doing so".  If the point is "Does asserting unpleasant or
unpopular beliefs automatically get you a free pass to be any sort of
jerk you like, because we are planning to bend over backwards to make
sure we don't ever ever ever discriminate against Nazis?" then the
answer is, "no, being a disruptive troll is still being a disruptive troll."

The day a kind, thoughtful, productive and intellectual person shows up
to help us with the encyclopedia project while simultaneously asserting
with all seriousness that the Nazi party of Germany was or is worthy of
support, we'll have a hell of an interesting case on our hands.  But the
reality is, that hasn't happened and seems very unlikely to ever happen.

--Jimbo


subject:
[WikiEN-l] On Completeness and Restrictiveness (was Re:
	GNAADeleted!)

body:
On 12/1/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes. The *breadth* of en:wp's coverage is actually a reason I've heard
> > from many who speak another language natively for preferring en:wp as
> > a reference - there's more likely to be something, anything, on a
> > given subject here than anywhere else, and a better something than
> > you'd get from a Google search.
> >
> > Our breadth is a strength, not a weakness. We don't have to have a
> > 30,000-byte article on something to be a useful source on it.
>
> Are you willing to stick your neck out and say whether a two-sentence
> stub on GNAA is a good thing or a bad thing?

It is a good thing or a bad thing.


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Rob Smith <nobs03 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/1/06, Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw at armory.com> wrote:
> > Free speech is my birthright as a human being--I do not need to be "allowed"
> > to speak freely; I am entitled to do so by the mere fact of my existence!
>
> The wording is, "All men are endowed by thier Creator with certain
> unalienable rights, among these....[enumerated]."
>
> Question is, how can atheists who deny thier Creator gave them rights,
> claim to have free speech, etc.

By first banning trolls who ask such questions and then making such
claims without fear of have the conversation disrupted by idiotic
questions?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw at armory.com> wrote:
> The US Constitution does not "allow" free speech.
> I'd be mighty pissed off if any government got so uppity as to think it had
> the authority to "allow" free speech.
> Free speech is my birthright as a human being--I do not need to be "allowed"
> to speak freely; I am entitled to do so by the mere fact of my existence!

Your right to free speech to not extend far enough to make private
orginizations expend resources to distribute your speech. As such
matters of free speech are entirely off topic for this thread and
generally offtopic for the list.

In any case, you can write whatever you want on your own wiki.. We'll
even give you the software. :)


from_name: Bryan Derksen

body:
Luna wrote:
>> Maybe the preformat should appear only when an IP address creates a page...
>
> Except that IPs can't create pages in the main namespace. :p Don't recall
> how long ago that was disabled.

December 5, 2005
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-December/033880.html].
It was described as an "experiment" at the time, but as far as I'm aware
no analysis has been done. I raise the issue every once in a while to
check on it, I guess with the one-year anniversary coming up it's that
time again. Anyone know if anything's been posted?

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 250 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20061201/1334d30a/attachment.pgp


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Vandalism and small wikis

body:
Hi,

Darko Bulatovic a ?crit :
> Yann Forget wrote:
>
>>Darko Bulatovic a ?crit :
>>
>>>That is very specific case, As in Switzerland live Italians, Germans and
>>>Franks. In Montenegrin case in Montenegro lives 45% Montenegrin s, 35%
>>>Serbs, Albanians, Bosnnjaks,...
>>>On other cases those countries was colonies of mayor European empires.
>>
>>There is nothing specific about that. The examples given by Sabin e is
>>perfectly valid. The problem is that you don't want to admit it.
>>
>>>Thank you for joining discussion,
>>>Darko Bulatovic
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Yann
>
> Yann,
>
> How much do you know about this? You are angry at me Yann? That I called

I am not angry.

> you to not make assumptions? Your assumptions affect half of million
> people Yann. I hope that you relise that, as  I don't really understand

Do you realize that what you ask affects the whole of Wikimedia?

> you. Sabin did at least showed  her point of view  here, and you just
> make comments without any argument.

Why do I need to argument? Did you listen to arguments made by others?

> Regards,
> Darko Bulatovic

As Geni said: "Enough to ask questions. In this case the relivant
question is what is the general view of the experts in the field?"

Regards,

Yann


from_name: Ilmari Karonen

subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
Nathaniel wrote:
> I hope this is the right place to ask this question:  is there a technical
> reason for not hosting TIFF files on Wikimedia servers?  Commons forbids
> them, and apparently has since the beginning.  However, it would be helpful
> for Wikisource if TIFF files of scans of public domain works could be
> uploaded and used for proofreading and/or archival.

What do you need TIFF files for that PNG can't handle?

I'm genuine interested; there are things the TIFF format can do that PNG
can't, but I'd like to know which features you need and why.

--
Ilmari Karonen


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
Rob Smith wrote:

>On 12/1/06, Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw at armory.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Free speech is my birthright as a human being--I do not need to be "allowed"
>>to speak freely; I am entitled to do so by the mere fact of my existence!
>>
>>
>The wording is, "All men are endowed by thier Creator with certain
>unalienable rights, among these....[enumerated]."
>
>Question is, how can atheists who deny thier Creator gave them rights,
>claim to have free speech, etc.
>
It's easy if one substitutes an atheist definition of creator. :-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
Good point.  No point jousting at windmills, I suppose.

On 12/1/06, charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
>
> "Jim Schuler" wrote
>
> > It
> > seems to me that some of us were attempting to hold a philosophical
> > discussion on a broader topic, not a topical conversation on the banning
> of
> > one person.
>
> Did you succeed? It's pretty hard to game Godwin's Law, and the userbox
> thing is our own personal Wikipedia for-Gawd's-sake topic.
>
> Charles
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Email sent from www.ntlworld.com
> Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software
> Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
Jim
http://iacobomus.blogspot.com/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw at armory.com> wrote:
>
> On Friday 01 December 2006 03:23, Jim Schuler wrote:
> >
> > I don't see removing libel as censorship -- libel falls under the
> category
> > of "crying fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire", thus it is
> not
> > free speech as intended by any constitution that allows free speech.
>
> The US Constitution does not "allow" free speech.
>
> I'd be mighty pissed off if any government got so uppity as to think it
> had
> the authority to "allow" free speech.
>
> Free speech is my birthright as a human being--I do not need to be
> "allowed"
> to speak freely; I am entitled to do so by the mere fact of my existence!
>
> --
> Kurt Weber
> <kmw at armory.com>
>
> In an abstract sense you are absolutely correct.  In a Realpolitik sense,
> no.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> Jim Schuler wrote:
> > On 12/1/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> >> Rob wrote:
> >>> This is an absurd comparison.  Rational people are completely capable
> >>> of distinguishing between normal partisan politics and a group which
> >>> advocates mass extermination.
> >> And furthermore, and this is important in this particular example,
> >> rational people are completely capable of distinguishing between
> someone
> >> with sincerely held but deeply misguided beliefs or attitudes who is
> >> sincerely trying to nevertheless work well with others to create a fair
> >> encyclopedic set of articles on difficult topics, and someone who is
> >> just slapping stuff on a userpage to try to yank people's chains.
> >>
> >> This is not a case of censorship of the poor repressed Nazis.  This is
> a
> >> simple simple simple case of blocking a troll and moving on with life
> >> without worrying about it.
> >>
> >> --Jimbo
> >
> >
> > No disrespect, Jimmy, but I don't think anyone was defending Nazis.  It
> > seems to me that some of us were attempting to hold a philosophical
> > discussion on a broader topic, not a topical conversation on the banning
> of
> > one person.
>
> Right, me too. :)  The point is, if the broad philosophical question is
> "Do we ban people for merely holding unpleasant or unpopular beliefs?"
> then the answer is "no, we never have, and there seems to be very little
> support for doing so".  If the point is "Does asserting unpleasant or
> unpopular beliefs automatically get you a free pass to be any sort of
> jerk you like, because we are planning to bend over backwards to make
> sure we don't ever ever ever discriminate against Nazis?" then the
> answer is, "no, being a disruptive troll is still being a disruptive
> troll."
>
> The day a kind, thoughtful, productive and intellectual person shows up
> to help us with the encyclopedia project while simultaneously asserting
> with all seriousness that the Nazi party of Germany was or is worthy of
> support, we'll have a hell of an interesting case on our hands.  But the
> reality is, that hasn't happened and seems very unlikely to ever happen.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________

 Good points, and essentially what I was getting at.   You're right about
the hypothetical, that *would* be a very interesting case were it to
happen.  More interesting, I think, would be the reaction of Wikipedians to
that person.  Might make a good book.  ;)

--
> Jim
> http://iacobomus.blogspot.com/


from_name: Angela

body:
On 12/1/06, the wub <thewub.wiki at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Much as I hate meaningless fuss over copyright, aren't these comics
> incorrectly licensed? The text is directly taken from Wikipedia articles -
> presumably under the GFDL. But the images are licensed as CC-BY-SA, with no
> reference to either the GFDL or fair use.

Anthere suggested at
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Greg_Williams#License that the
author should claim fair use. But Commons doesn't allow fair use...

Angela.


from_name: Sherool

subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:12:50 +0100, Ilmari Karonen <nospam at vyznev.net>
wrote:

> Nathaniel wrote:
>> I hope this is the right place to ask this question:  is there a
>> technical
>> reason for not hosting TIFF files on Wikimedia servers?  Commons forbids
>> them, and apparently has since the beginning.  However, it would be
>> helpful
>> for Wikisource if TIFF files of scans of public domain works could be
>> uploaded and used for proofreading and/or archival.
>
> What do you need TIFF files for that PNG can't handle?
>
> I'm genuine interested; there are things the TIFF format can do that PNG
> can't, but I'd like to know which features you need and why.

I would guess the ability to include multiple "pages" in one file. If you
scan a 1000 page book most document scanners will let you save it as a
single multi-page TIFF file, and that is a heck of a lot easier to upload
than 1000 PGN images would be.

Converting to PDF seems like a easy workaround for that though. Not quite
sure why TIFF's are outright banned on Commons, security conserns maybe
(it's aparently a bit prone to buffer overrun attacks)? As far as I can
tell there are no licensing or patent issues with the format.

--
[[:en:User:Sherool]]


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 01/12/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:

> Same with Wikipedia contributors. Take a break, people!

Oh, that one takes care of itself - they get eaten by admin or foundation work.

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 20:47:05 +0100, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 12/1/06, Sherool <jamydlan at online.no> wrote:
>> I would guess the ability to include multiple "pages" in one file. If
>> you
>> scan a 1000 page book most document scanners will let you save it as a
>> single multi-page TIFF file, and that is a heck of a lot easier to
>> upload
>> than 1000 PGN images would be.
>
> Dejavu supports multipage documents. We support .djvu uploads.
>
> http://djvulibre.djvuzone.org/
>
> Sure, you'll need a viewer plugin/app but tiff is in the same boat.

Ah, I see. I'm so out of touch with all these "new" (to me) formats  :-O

I still have some old IFF images from the Amiga days, is that a supported
format? :P

--
[[:en:User:Sherool]]


body:
My own view is that when Brion completes the "flagging" system
(sometimes known as "stable versions" sometimes known as "non vandalized
versions") then upon it's release, we should change this restriction.

In my opinion, it did not achieve the intended effect.

Bryan Derksen wrote:
> Luna wrote:
>>> Maybe the preformat should appear only when an IP address creates a page...
>> Except that IPs can't create pages in the main namespace. :p Don't recall
>> how long ago that was disabled.
>
> December 5, 2005
> [http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-December/033880.html].
> It was described as an "experiment" at the time, but as far as I'm aware
> no analysis has been done. I raise the issue every once in a while to
> check on it, I guess with the one-year anniversary coming up it's that
> time again. Anyone know if anything's been posted?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
On 01/12/06, George Herbert <george.herbert at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am getting a strange problem with [[Lifting body]] on en.wikipedia (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_body ); the article has history,
> talk page, etc., but any attempt to go right to it gives the "This
> article does not exist" page.
> DB burp?  Cache problem?

Weird - the diff looks simple, a request for citation -

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lifting_body&diff=91416820&oldid=86914626

- but the article is now blank!

- d.


body:
On 01/12/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/1/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Yes. The *breadth* of en:wp's coverage is actually a reason I've heard
> > from many who speak another language natively for preferring en:wp as
> > a reference - there's more likely to be something, anything, on a
> > given subject here than anywhere else, and a better something than
> > you'd get from a Google search.
> > Our breadth is a strength, not a weakness. We don't have to have a
> > 30,000-byte article on something to be a useful source on it.

> Are you willing to stick your neck out and say whether a two-sentence
> stub on GNAA is a good thing or a bad thing?

I never particularly objected to the article's existence and voted
"keep" each time it came up, particularly as there were quite a few
people keeping an eye on it.

- d.


from_name: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
"Jim Schuler" wrote

> It
> seems to me that some of us were attempting to hold a philosophical
> discussion on a broader topic, not a topical conversation on the banning of
> one person.

Did you succeed? It's pretty hard to game Godwin's Law, and the userbox thing is our own personal Wikipedia for-Gawd's-sake topic.

Charles

-----------------------------------------
Email sent from www.ntlworld.com
Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software
Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 01/12/06, Rob Smith <nobs03 at gmail.com> wrote:

> The wording is, "All men are endowed by thier Creator with certain
> unalienable rights, among these....[enumerated]."
> Question is, how can atheists who deny thier Creator gave them rights,
> claim to have free speech, etc.

Obviously, Thomas Jefferson foresaw the rise of Richard Dawkins.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 01/12/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:

> In any case, you can write whatever you want on your own wiki.. We'll
> even give you the software. :)

One of the standard emails I get is people asking if such-and-such a
site is run by us, because it looks JUST LIKE WIKIPEDIA!

And by the way, even the Neo-Nazis have a wiki, WN Wiki, but it seems
to have floundered - see
http://www.vnnforum.com/printthread.php?t=27152 (warning: Neo-Nazi
forum) .

- d.


from_name: Christopher Hagar

subject: [WikiEN-l] Making it easier for the public to help out

body:
We could, right now, put a link on the anonnotice to "Report a problem" that
links to create a new section on the talk page, but that would be only the
most minimal of the suggested improvements, some of which may require
developer intervention.

On 11/29/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/29/06, Humus Sapiens <humus.sapiens at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Let's make sure we are not implementing a drive-by tagging tool and
> > anticipate what would happen to articles like [[Abortion]] or [[War on
> > Terror]]. I would lean towards encouraging readers to join and become
> > responsible editors.
>
> What would happen to these articles? I guess in the system I've
> tentatively been proposing, you would have a long stream of tags along
> the lines of "Factually incorrect: NO BUSH LIED ITS ALL ABOUT OIL!!1"
> or something. Perhaps there should be a way to indicate that certain
> pages not be eligible for driveby assistance - "thanks, but we have
> more than enough helpers on this page. Care to look at some
> [[...|others]]?"
>
> Good point.
>
> Incidentally, anyone yet know how to implement this?
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-12-02

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/maintenance/parserTests.txt"...
Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Template with thumb image (with link in description)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Don't fall for the self-closing div... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Always escape literal '>' in output, not just after '<'... FAILED!

Reading tests from "/home/brion/src/wiki/phase3/extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...

Passed 451 of 471 tests (95.75%)... FAILED!


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

body:
On 12/1/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Seeing as we have <ref> tags and since references seems to be the
> prevailing
> > name in the articles I visit, ==References== appears the logical choice.
>
> What about sources of information which are not "referenced" as such.
> That is, a site where some of the information came from, but which was
> not cited at the paragraph or sentence level?

But them under the same header but  don't use them to cite at a sentence
level. It is still a reference.


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brion Vibber wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> So, some portion of pages saved during an hour or so had their items
>> saved into srv89 instead of srv87. When other web servers then came to
>> read the pages back, they read from srv87 or its clone srv88, and
>> received a _different page_ with the _same blob ID number_.
>
> Will try to have the broken ones recovered tonight or tomorrow.

I'm pretty sure I've got the broken blobs all dealt with now (with the
possible exception of some that were in deleted pages, in which case who
cares ;)

Most cases were automatically resolvable due to the separate timing;
conflicting entries on the good server were made two or three days
earlier, generally.

It's possible that some pages were affected by caching of negative
results loading missing items out of the other server; those should fall
out of cache sooner or later, or a purge will take care of them
individually.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFcUE+wRnhpk1wk44RAuPwAKCVRBdbUznZfhwvfEMd8iq9lG0PswCcDskV
cKM3UgfaWBT0Zl+E/YM1lWY=
=1yom
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On 12/1/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/2/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I never particularly objected to the article's existence and voted
> > "keep" each time it came up, particularly as there were quite a few
> > people keeping an eye on it.
>
> So the "verifiability" problem is not so much about the article's
> existence, but rather, all the unverifiable material that migrates
> towards it. Wouldn't a protected two-sentence stub be the way to go?
> Or, hell, even one sentence...
>
> If you look at any other encyclopaedia, they're full of "stubs" - very
> short articles that give a bare minimum of information, for less
> important subjects. We should have no shame in having these.
>
You rabble-rousing radical.


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jens Frank wrote:
> At bootup, /home/wikipedia/sbin/post-boot-config-sync.sh is being
> called. Should we add scap15-1 to that script, so that the system
> updates the software when booting up?

Yes, I think that would be wise.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFcUSDwRnhpk1wk44RAna+AKCiJo3sII/fLEFMWlJZRtuprU+HWwCbBYkx
zADj/X4PXF5M8p5zgC4cAOY=
=4E2k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
Ilmari Karonen wrote:

> What do you need TIFF files for that PNG can't handle?

TIFF is a container format in two respects: 1) It can hold many
images (pages of a document) in one file, just like a ZIP archive
or a PDF file. This aspect is not supported by MediaWiki today,
but could perhaps be in the future?  2) It can hold images of many
different compression formats. One of these is the CCITT/ITU-T
Group 4 facsimile, a.k.a. "G4", a lossless compression for black
and white (bitonal, not grayscale) images, which is very
space-efficient for scanned images of printed pages.

For example, the image http://runeberg.org/img/nfad/0670.4.png is
240 kbytes in 150 dpi 16-level grayscale PNG but only 200 kbytes
in 600 dpi bitonal TIFF G4.  The difference between 150 dpi
grayscale and 600 dpi bitonal becomes very clear when you try to
print the page on a 600 or 1200 dpi laser printer.

G4 and JPEG are probably the two most commonly used image
compressions for scanned images inside PDF documents.  For a
scanned G4 image, you can easily convert between TIFF and PDF just
by modifying the file header.  This is not CPU-intensive, since
you don't need to uncompress the scanned image within.

DjVu and JBIG2 are more recent developments in this area, but have
only very recently become available in open source code.  Most
scanners and scanning programs support TIFF G4, which has been
around since the early 1990s.  It is well supported by libtiff.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


from_name: Darko Bulatovic

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> I don't think that Yann was expressing anger.  His suggestion to use the
> sh.wikipedia was a constructive one.  Of Montenegrin, Serbian, Albanian,
> and Bosnian mentioned above most people outside of the Balkans would see
> only Albanian as different enough from the others to merit being called
> a language.  To say that this issue will affect half a million people
> (by which I assume you mean the entire population of Montenegro) is
> overly dramatic; most of those people will just carry on normally with
> their lives no matter how the arguments here are resolved.
>
> The five of us who have so far participated with you in this discussion
> are from five different countries (none of which is Serbia), and five
> different native languages.  I have seen three of the others regularly
> participate in discussions about language, so I would pay attentiont
> their opinions even when I don't agree with them.
>
> If you really want to do things for the Montenegrin language you could
> do better than argue in favour of the correlation  between nation and
> language.  Begin by giving references to existing Montenegrin dictionary
> and grammar books, showing Montenegrin words in Wiktionary and how they
> differ from other Serbo-Croatian languages, show us the important
> differences in Montenegrin grammar, or.add important out-of-copyright
> books by Montenegrin authors to Wikisource.
>
> Ec
>
>
Ray,

Thank you for showing you interest in this, Yan just showed to me( and
some of others) that they don't have a clue what they talk about. And
that producing a anger that is not provoked by anything from my side.
The committee has made decision that is on hand to Serbian
clero-nacional-shovinism that I think you all know about in close
history of Sloboan Miloshevic. I have asked people here to explain their
opinion (and still waiting committee to give official one).

I think that my statement is not over dramatic, as you will see when
this come to media.
In which way some people act as judges but dont even bother to take time
to gather evidence from both sides. I have called many times but no one
event tried to go deeper in this.

Some people here just comment (and after dont wish to elaborate)they
dont give any constructive element to this discussion.

your idea here is not possible from many reasons.
First:
- Montenegrin language exists. Allmost 200.000  people stated that they
talk Montenegrin language and 650.000 are affected by it.
- Montenegrin is part of South Slavic languages that includes:
Bulgarian, Slovenian, Macedonian, Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian.

Montenegrin has specifics that differ from others(closer group Serbian,
Croatian, Bosnian) in many was. Some time from 10-30% and from
Slovenian. Macedonian, and Bulgarian much more.

I see I got commented on serbian mailing list:
????????? ?? ??????? ????? ???
"??????????????". ???? ? ?? ??????
??????, ? ?? ?????? ???? ?????????
?????? ????????. ????? ????... ???
????? ?????? ????, ? ?????? ?? ????
???? ???? ? ????????. ?????? ?? ????
???????. ??????? ?? ???????
??????????? ????? ???? ??? ????????
?? ??????, ?????? ??? ? ???????? ??
???, ?????????? ???????..., ? ????? ??
????? ?? ????? ??????, ??? ? ?????....
????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???????
?? ????????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?????
???????? ??????????? ????????... ?
??????????? ?????? ???????
?????????????.  ????? ?? ?? ?????,
??????? ?'? ????????. :)
translation:
Djukanovic is spiritual leader of that "new-montenegrins". In same way
he talk shit, and that he is not even see what stupidity he talks. Good
for them... when they have that kind of leader, and to majority  is
worst than in  Albania. Kosovo comes to them as America. Shiptars (It
could be called as mocking name to Albanian people) seeling them
humanitartian help which they get on Kosovo, they even buy a medicaments
from them, smuggled of course. And here they are dicky that they have a
nation, and now language....
Fuck nation which people waiting Bus from Shiptaria (Albania-Kosovo
maybe - mocking), that driver will smuggle them aspirins. In meantime
that Dog become multimillionaire . They are stupid like Penis or maybe
better like  VIBRATOR

That kind of fascism you are supporting? You call us to participate with
this kind of people? You are insane. It is quite obvious who is
political motivated here.

Regards,
Darko Bulatovic


body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 01/12/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> David Gerard schreef:
>>
>
>
>>> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/You_Know_You%27re_Croatian_When
>>>
>
>
>> Hoi,
>> I am afraid it is a bit off topic ..
>>
>
>
> It gives an idea of the nationalism involved. But perpetuating the
> mistake of having separate Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedias
> really just is not going to happen.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
David,

This look to me like fascism, please don't mock to us in this way. You
dont know anything about us. And you here just show what kind of people
exist here in community.

Darko Bulatovic


body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
> If you really want to do things for the Montenegrin language you could
> do better than argue in favour of the correlation  between nation and
> language.  Begin by giving references to existing Montenegrin dictionary
> and grammar books, showing Montenegrin words in Wiktionary and how they
> differ from other Serbo-Croatian languages, show us the important
> differences in Montenegrin grammar, or.add important out-of-copyright
> books by Montenegrin authors to Wikisource.
>
> Ec
>
>
>
But I didnt make this point, people from here made that point. I have
just tied to say that it is not the point.
You want reference:

- Try to read work of Petar Petrovic Njegosh II. You will find on other
part of the book dictionary for people which talk Serbian language. As
they don't understand much of it.
- All state letters and philosophic, poems, etc that come from
Montenegro in past of 100+ years contains such specific. Modern one also
has same specific that use Montenegrin language.

In current draft of state constitution is stated that official language
of Montenegro is Montenegrin, also there are some Books from mr.
Nikcevic that have this topic, but I cant find reference on Internet
that will show this.

Darko Bulatovic


subject: [Foundation-l] Montenegrin request for new language wikipedia

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> David Gerard wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>>>
>
>
>>>> I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
>>>> looks very strange to me.
>>>>
>
>
>>> OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous
>>> mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
>>>
>
>
>> Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
>>
>
>
> But it isn't a language. It's barely a distinct dialect.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
Dialect of what? Serbian?

Darko Bulatovic


body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Darko Bulatovic schreef:
>
>> David Gerard wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
>>>> looks very strange to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous
>>> mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
>>>
>>>
>>> - d.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
>>
>> Darko Bulatovic
>>
> Hoi,
> Sabine asked some colleagues (translators) on the mailing lists for
> professional translators about Montenegrin, the universal answer is that
> Montenegrin and Serbian is the same language. The point here is that
> when it DOES make a difference, translators will have business by
> adapting it for use on the Montenegrin market. In this a text prepared
> for the Dutch market is different from a Belgian market because there
> being a big discrepancy in the vocabulary .. all this does not deny us
> both speaking Dutch.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
>
>
Gerard,
We have talked about this, she talked with serbs translators?

They cant translate from Montenegrin without use of some dictionaries.
Situation is similar to the " Gorski vijenac" - they cant translate it -
they cant even understand it fully.

Darko Bulatovic.


from_name: Jens Frank

body:
On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 04:33:47PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Brion Vibber wrote:
> > So, some portion of pages saved during an hour or so had their items
> > saved into srv89 instead of srv87. When other web servers then came to
> > read the pages back, they read from srv87 or its clone srv88, and
> > received a _different page_ with the _same blob ID number_.
>
> Three other down web servers were brought up at the same time, with the
> same bad configuration. I've resynced them all now, so there should be
> no more things falling into the wrong server.
>
> Will try to have the broken ones recovered tonight or tomorrow.

At bootup, /home/wikipedia/sbin/post-boot-config-sync.sh is being
called. Should we add scap15-1 to that script, so that the system
updates the software when booting up?

Regards,

jens


subject: [Wikitech-l] tiff files?

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:
>
> For example, the image http://runeberg.org/img/nfad/0670.4.png is
> 240 kbytes in 150 dpi 16-level grayscale PNG but only 200 kbytes
> in 600 dpi bitonal TIFF G4.  The difference between 150 dpi
> grayscale and 600 dpi bitonal becomes very clear when you try to
> print the page on a 600 or 1200 dpi laser printer.

Have you tried a comparison against a 600 dpi bitonal PNG?  The DEFLATE
compression used in PNGs may or may not be as effective for bitone
images as G4, but it should still handle them pretty well.

--
Ilmari Karonen


body:
Gerard she could try this professional translation  company. They do
translate from/to Montenegrin language:

http://www.spes.hr/Main_PortalPage.aspx?external=true&kolumna=20&br_vijesti=4&type=L&tablename=Main_PortalPage.aspx&tabledesc=Languages

As you can see it is not even Montenegrin Company.

Regards,
Darko Bulatovic


from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
On 12/1/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes. The *breadth* of en:wp's coverage is actually a reason I've heard
> from many who speak another language natively for preferring en:wp as
> a reference - there's more likely to be something, anything, on a
> given subject here than anywhere else, and a better something than
> you'd get from a Google search.
>
> Our breadth is a strength, not a weakness. We don't have to have a
> 30,000-byte article on something to be a useful source on it.

Are you willing to stick your neck out and say whether a two-sentence
stub on GNAA is a good thing or a bad thing?

Steve


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: David Still

subject: [Wikipedia-l] News to me

body:
It's a series of tubes, I hear.

On 12/2/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
> You mean the Internets.
>
> On 12/1/06, Death Phoenix <originaldeathphoenix at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hey, if we have someone inventing the Internet...
> >
> > On 11/30/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I didn't realize Danny Mayer was a cofounder of Wikipedia. You learn
> > > something new every day!
> > >
> > > From: "Adriana Iwashko" <IwashkoA at newschool.edu>
> > > To: < artdesignstudies at newsite.newschool.edu>
> > > Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:04:36 -0500
> > > Subject: Open Source- The Vera List Center for Art and Politics
> > > Panel Discussion
> > > "Open Source: On the Line"
> > > Monday, December 4, 2006 - 6:30 p.m.
> > > The New School, Theresa Lang Community and Student Center
> > > 55 West 13th Street, 2nd floor
> > > New York City
> > > Admission: $8, free for all students, as well as members of
> > > Rhizome.org<http://rhizome.org/>
> > > and New School faculty, staff and alumni with valid ID
> > >
> > > Panelists:
> > > Cory Arcangel, artist
> > > Joy Garnett, artist
> > > Patrick May, Director of Technology, Rhizome.org <http://rhizome.org/>
> > > Daniel Mayer, Co-founder, Wikipedia
> > > Laura Quilter, Founder, Fair Use Network
> > >
> > > Moderator:
> > > Christiane Paul, Adjunct Curator of New Media Arts, The Whitney Museum
> > > of American Art
> > >
> > > A panel on the aesthetic and political possibilities afforded by open
> > > source systems, and related debates around copyright and intellectual
> > > property.
> > >
> > > The panelists will examine sites like Wikipedia and
> > > Digg.com<http://digg.com/>as well as
> > > p2p networks and social networking sites, and the practices and
> > > challenges inherent to each. They will also explore artworks, arts
> > > institutions, and businesses that have sought to adopt open source
> > > models, and touch on current challenges to the continuation of this
> > > ethos such as "net neutrality" legislation.
> > >
> > > Organized by Rhizome, in association with the Vera List Center for Art
> > > and Politics.
> > >
> > > This event is presented as part of the Vera List Center's program
> > > cycle on "The Public Domain," and on occasion of Rhizome's tenth
> > > anniversary.
> > >
> > >
> > > UPCOMING EVENTS:
> > >
> > > Friday, December 1, 2006 - 6:00 and 8:00 p.m.
> > > "AIDS and the Politics of Science"
> > > "Beyond Lament: AIDS and the Arts"
> > > 2 panels commemorating World AIDS Day, and the 25th anniversary of
> > > epidemic's beginning, organized by the Wolfson Center for National
> > > Affairs
> > >
> > > Wednesday, December 6, - 7:00 p.m.
> > > "Image Ownership and Usage in the Digital Age"
> > > Wednesday, December 6, 2006 - 7:00 p.m.
> > >
> > > With Michelle Bogre, Parsons The New School for Design
> > > Richard Ellis, Senior Vice President, Getty Images
> > > Barbara Hoffman, Arts and Intellectual Property Lawyer
> > >
> > > Presented as part of the Aperture Foundation's series "Confounding
> > > Expectations: Photography in Context."
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Categories vs lists vs navboxes (was Re:  Deletions,
	lists, etc?)

body:
On 12/1/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, there are people who think categories are superior to lists
> in all regards. I like to think there are exceptions.

Cats are superior? Since when??

One of the interesting differences is their role in the actual process
of organising information (as opposed to the end result). Categories
are good when you spot a similarity between a number of articles and
want to start formalising that link. Lists are good when you see a
need for a set of related articles that don't yet exist.

Both are ok for allowing navigation through sets of related articles,
but IMHO navigation boxes are much, much better.

Incidentally, Encyclopaedia Britannica (2004 edition on CD) seems to
use hierarchical lists as its preferred method: At the bottom of an
article, you get a list with varying levels of indentation. Clicking
on an item takes you to another article guaranteed to have that same
list. It works pretty well!

Steve


body:
On 12/2/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was kidding. But imagine at the bottom of an article instead of just
> listing the categories it belonged to in "boring" text each category had its
> own pretty colored box with some goofy icon.
>
> That would be AWESOME.
>
> Again, I'm not being serious.

May not be a bad idea. Something similar happens elsewiki with portals:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouvement_des_d%C3%A9mocrates_socialistes

Note the two portal links down the bottom. Is there a reason we don't
do this? Personally I never ever see portals, because I never come in
the front door. Does anyone use portals?

Steve


body:
On 12/1/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> Seeing as we have <ref> tags and since references seems to be the prevailing
> name in the articles I visit, ==References== appears the logical choice.

What about sources of information which are not "referenced" as such.
That is, a site where some of the information came from, but which was
not cited at the paragraph or sentence level?

> "Further reading" makes people list irrelevant books which are a lot harder
> to check than URLs.

Section headings make people do what now?

Steve


subject: [Wikitech-l] [WikiEN-l] Time for preformatted empty articles?

body:
On 12/1/06, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com> wrote:
> I have
> * Templator [1] to pre-fill templates (currently in German only)
> * PrepBio [2] to generate whole biography stub pages
> * A coordinate template generator [3]
> * A wikitext book generator from ISBN [4]
> * A reference generator [5]
>
> These could be combined into a single package to ease article creation.

Some of them should be converted to javascript and built into monobook.css.

Steve


body:
.js even.

Steve

On 12/2/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/1/06, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > I have
> > * Templator [1] to pre-fill templates (currently in German only)
> > * PrepBio [2] to generate whole biography stub pages
> > * A coordinate template generator [3]
> > * A wikitext book generator from ISBN [4]
> > * A reference generator [5]
> >
> > These could be combined into a single package to ease article creation.
>
> Some of them should be converted to javascript and built into monobook.css.
>
> Steve
>


from_name: Jim Schuler

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
On 12/1/06, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
> Rob Smith wrote:
>
> >On 12/1/06, Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw at armory.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Free speech is my birthright as a human being--I do not need to be
> "allowed"
> >>to speak freely; I am entitled to do so by the mere fact of my
> existence!
> >>
> >>
> >The wording is, "All men are endowed by thier Creator with certain
> >unalienable rights, among these....[enumerated]."
> >
> >Question is, how can atheists who deny thier Creator gave them rights,
> >claim to have free speech, etc.
> >
> It's easy if one substitutes an atheist definition of creator. :-)
>
> Ec
>
> By the way: the wording is from the Declaration of Independence, not the
> US Constitution, so it really isn't relevant to the discussion.
> Additionally, that specific wording was chosen for its "propaganda" value --
> it added an authoritative air to a document that would otherwise have been
> seen by the British as a list of whiney complaints, and that would not have
> received the support of much of the general populace.


from_name: Birgitte SB

body:
--- geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
> > Today when war is over and we know everything what
> happen and we did go
> > peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
> blind and you talk me
> > about working under Serbian wikipedia?
>
> No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English
> wikipedia it is
> the English language wikipedia. Just because there
> was once a country
> called England does not mean that the wikipedia
> belongs to that
> country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language.
> In this case the
> correct name for the language would probably be
> Serbo-Croatian.
>
>

This right here is the key the whole thread.
Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written
languages not nations.  The goal should be to have the
least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate
reasources.  When in doubt we should not create a
subdomain.

The question I have is are we going to examine all
current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near
future for merging possibilities?

Birgitte SB

____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com


from_name: Rob Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Nazi userboxes

body:
> On 12/1/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
>The day a kind, thoughtful, productive and intellectual person shows up
>to help us with the encyclopedia project while simultaneously asserting
>with all seriousness that the Nazi party of Germany was or is worthy of
>support, we'll have a hell of an interesting case on our hands.  But the
>reality is, that hasn't happened and seems very unlikely to ever happen.
>
>--Jimbo
>
Yes we have the example of Dr. Christina Jeffrey whom the ADL
vindicated with the words, "any characterization of you as
anti-Semitic or sympathetic to Nazism is unfair and unfounded".

http://www.ngcsu.edu/bdf/bfried/cjeff.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n9_v47/ai_16920435

yet it makes up almost entirely the article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives

and is probably not adaquately covered there; pity the poor editor who
dares to undertake such a task.

Nobs01


from_name: Sabine Cretella

body:
You don't find translators offering it on various translator's portals
(I checked three of them). These portals do not even include Montenegrin
in their language search. (http://proz.com, http://gotranslators.com,
http://translatorscafe.com).

I am not going to forward my single contacts since they are not involved
with the wikimedia foundation and your politics and therefore remain
protected.

Well ... could you tell me why http://sdl.com does not offer
Montenegrin? and http://logos.it and http://e-kern.com?

Oh come on ... it is enough about politics. You use a different script
to Serbian ... that's all ... btw. the funniest thing I came through was
just one request asking for a translator for Serbian that can understand
the Montenegrin dialect ... so: only one request about the so-called
Montenegrin language on so many translation portals.

In which language are your instruction manuals for computers, fridges,
tv-sets etc. are written if there are obviously no translators offering
Montenegrin as a  language they translate to (hmmm ... strange ... are
there no translators in Montenegro or are they just not offering the
language, because otherwise they would not get any jobs because the
language is not known in the world?).

A statement I got from a person that is neither Serbian nor Montenegrin,
but interpreter (mind me interpreter, not translator) for that ONE
language is that it is not even different enough in pronunciation to
really create trouble to someone not being Serbian mothertongue to
understand it - uhmmmmm ... . Mind me: we are talking about
professionals who deal with languages every day, who make a living out
of that.

Btw. in which language is the Operating System of your computer?

So please: instead of going ahead creating unneccessary problems, help
to find a way to integrate people on the Serbian wikipedia.

Thank you for your co-operation!

Best wishes,

Sabine

Darko Bulatovic schrieb:
> Gerard she could try this professional translation  company. They do
> translate from/to Montenegrin language:
>
> http://www.spes.hr/Main_PortalPage.aspx?external=true&kolumna=20&br_vijesti=4&type=L&tablename=Main_PortalPage.aspx&tabledesc=Languages
>
> As you can see it is not even Montenegrin Company.
>
> Regards,
> Darko Bulatovic
>

Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale!
 http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject:
[WikiEN-l] oh joy, oh rapture,
 oh bliss: the userbox wars are reignited

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 12/2/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was kidding. But imagine at the bottom of an article instead of just
>> listing the categories it belonged to in "boring" text each category had its
>> own pretty colored box with some goofy icon.
>>
>> That would be AWESOME.
>>
>> Again, I'm not being serious.
>
> May not be a bad idea. Something similar happens elsewiki with portals:
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouvement_des_d%C3%A9mocrates_socialistes
>
> Note the two portal links down the bottom. Is there a reason we don't
> do this? Personally I never ever see portals, because I never come in
> the front door. Does anyone use portals?
>

Newspapers occasionally point people to our Cricket portal...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 569 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20061202/7aeb840a/attachment.pgp


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Russian Wikipedia award?

body:
According to our tip line at The Wikipedia Signpost, the Russian
Wikipedia has some kind of notice on their front page, apparently about
winning some kind of honor for the Russian-language Web. If so,
congratulations! Anybody who reads Russian or knows something more about
this?

--Michael Snow


from_name: Steve Summit

body:
The Cunctator wrote:
> ...imagine at the bottom of an article instead of just listing the
> categories it belonged to in "boring" text each category had its
> own pretty colored box with some goofy icon.  That would be AWESOME.

WP:BEANS!  WP:BEANS!  WP:BEANS!  WP:BEANS!  WP:BEANS!


list: commons-l

from_name: Sherool

subject: [Commons-l] SVG chessboard transparency

body:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:12:03 +0100, damodar vinayak bale
<dvbale at rediffmail.com> wrote:

>  ?  Peace & Love,That's the Art Of Living.
>     -Shyam.

Could someone please put this "guy" back on moderation? Looks lik a spam
bot of sorts, all he seems to do is reply to messages with unrelated bits
of text to plug various books[1].

1:
<http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/mmsearch/commons-l?config=commons-l&restrict=&exclude=&method=and&format=short&sort=score&words=dvbale%40rediffmail.com>

--
[[:en:User:Sherool]]


body:
--- Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:

> Birgitte SB wrote:
> > --- geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Today when war is over and we know everything
> what
> >>>
> >> happen and we did go
> >>
> >>> peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
> >>>
> >> blind and you talk me
> >>
> >>> about working under Serbian wikipedia?
> >>>
> >> No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the
> English
> >> wikipedia it is
> >> the English language wikipedia. Just because
> there
> >> was once a country
> >> called England does not mean that the wikipedia
> >> belongs to that
> >> country. Instead wikipedias are divided by
> language.
> >> In this case the
> >> correct name for the language would probably be
> >> Serbo-Croatian.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > This right here is the key the whole thread.
> > Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written
> > languages not nations.  The goal should be to have
> the
> > least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate
> > reasources.  When in doubt we should not create a
> > subdomain.
> >
> > The question I have is are we going to examine all
> > current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the
> near
> > future for merging possibilities?
> >
> > Birgitte SB
> >
> >
> >
> Birgittee,
>
> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do.
> As this is not key
> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And
> Balkan is not UK. And
> this comparison just shows that you don't have a
> clue what you talk about.
>
> Darko Bulatovic
>
> _

I don't understand how I put words in you mouth.  What
I wrote about this being the key is my own opinion.  I
and I do believe basing languages subdomains off
mutually intelligable written languages is the key.

Birgitte SB

____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.


body:
--- Milos Rancic <millosh at gmail.com> wrote:

> In short, there are two options:
>
> - to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or
> - to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian
> or Bosnian to
> Montenegrin variant.
>
> In this issue (which is related to political
> linguistics) the main
> problem are preferences. From Southren Serbia to
> Istria all people
> will perfectly understand each other if they are
> talking in their own
> standards (in general, Croatian standard is a little
> bit more distant
> then others). But, not so small amount of
> preferences makes
> differences between standard languages. Plus, very
> good knowledge of
> one standard means that you may talk with others,
> but doesn't mean
> that you may write in other standard (even I have a
> good Slavistic
> bacground, I have a lot of problems to write in
> Croatian standard).
>
> And everyone has right to:
> - call her/his language as (s)he wants;
> - to be educated in her/his native language.
>
> And Wikipedia is about those rights.

If this is about preferences how is different than all
the variations of English spoken in the world?  Each
variation has it's own standards etc.  And en.WP works
quite well settling out which variety would be used
for each article.  It is a bad idea to unnecessarily
divide reasources.  Do you not understand how
difficult it is to keep ontop of the basic
adminstrative tasks in a small wiki?  I think there
needs to strong definitive reasons  for creating a
subdomain.  If it is questionable don't create it.

Birgitte SB

Birgitte SB

____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index


from_name: SJ Klein

body:
Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something
like language-l at wikimedia.org ?

This request has come up many times before; we now have a dedicated
language group, steady traffic on the requests for new languages page, and
enough experienced people thinking constantly about language issues, that
it makes some sense to give these discussions their own archive.

Of course people should always be welcome to come to foundation-l to
discuss this kind of organizational issue, but then it would at least be
possible to request a specific type of proposal, to say at some point "it
is not productive to continue this thread on the general foundation list",
or to ask each participant in a flame war to limit themselves to one post
per day on the topic.

These language issues are extremely important; but they involve a small
number of repeated stances and counter-stances.  There are also many other
extremely important foundation-level issues which are not being discussed
as much as they should be, and which are harder to define -- making it
harder to have enthusisatic flame wars about them -- which should be
given their own room.

-- SJ

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Darko Bulatovic wrote:

> Birgitte SB wrote:
>> --- geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Today when war is over and we know everything what
>>>>
>>> happen and we did go
>>>
>>>> peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
>>>>
>>> blind and you talk me
>>>
>>>> about working under Serbian wikipedia?
>>>>
>>> No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English
>>> wikipedia it is
>>> the English language wikipedia. Just because there
>>> was once a country
>>> called England does not mean that the wikipedia
>>> belongs to that
>>> country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language.
>>> In this case the
>>> correct name for the language would probably be
>>> Serbo-Croatian.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This right here is the key the whole thread.
>> Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written
>> languages not nations.  The goal should be to have the
>> least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate
>> reasources.  When in doubt we should not create a
>> subdomain.
>>
>> The question I have is are we going to examine all
>> current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near
>> future for merging possibilities?
>>
>> Birgitte SB
>>
>>
>>
> Birgittee,
>
> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
>
> Darko Bulatovic
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
On 12/2/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> I never particularly objected to the article's existence and voted
> "keep" each time it came up, particularly as there were quite a few
> people keeping an eye on it.

So the "verifiability" problem is not so much about the article's
existence, but rather, all the unverifiable material that migrates
towards it. Wouldn't a protected two-sentence stub be the way to go?
Or, hell, even one sentence...

If you look at any other encyclopaedia, they're full of "stubs" - very
short articles that give a bare minimum of information, for less
important subjects. We should have no shame in having these.

Steve


from_name: Rob Church

subject:
[Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [18117]
	trunk/phase3/includes/Linker.php

body:
On 02/12/06, werdna at svn.wikimedia.org <werdna at svn.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Update linker to make contributions links (in userToolLinks and userLink) and block links (blockLink) use subpage notation, rather than pass the target as a parameter

Please be careful when converting things *to* those "subpage" forms,
since we've had some problems in the past caused by long
titles/usernames which cause the resulting title to be rejected,
apparently crippling users' ability to delete/move/block them.

Rob Church


from_name: Patrick Hall

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Russian Wikipedia award?

body:
Hi Michael,

> According to our tip line at The Wikipedia Signpost, the Russian
> Wikipedia has some kind of notice on their front page, apparently about
> winning some kind of honor for the Russian-language Web. If so,
> congratulations! Anybody who reads Russian or knows something more about
> this?

FWIW, there are some English captions on some the photos at
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Premia_Runeta_2006 .

Here are a few:

"Russian Wikipedia - Runet-2006 prize winner. Ajvol addressing the
audience after receiving the prize."
"Russian Wikipedia - Runet-2006 prize winner. Stas addressing the
audience after receiving the prize."
"Russian Wikipedia - Runet-2006 prize winner. Wulfson with the prize
in his hand."

Best regards,

-Pat Hall
User:Babbage

--
Within the armour is the butterfly and within the butterfly--is the
signal from another star. -pkd


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
>> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
>> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
>
>
> I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince
> absolutely no-one here.

I am not at all convinced that we should have even the 3 wikipedias we
have right now.  In general, it is quite reasonable to say that there is
in fact one language here, not 3, not 4, not 10.

The problem of two writing systems is a difficult one, yes.  But the
fact remains that if you sit down over a beer with people from all these
dialects, they can laugh and joke and have fun together just as well as
people with different dialects of English.

--Jimbo


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Darko Bulatovic wrote:

>I see I got commented on serbian mailing list:
>?????????
>
...

>??????? ?'? ????????. :)
>
>translation:
>Djukanovic is spiritual leader of that "new-montenegrins". In same way
>he talk shit, and that he is not even see what stupidity he talks. Good
>for them... when they have that kind of leader, and to majority  is
>worst than in  Albania. Kosovo comes to them as America. Shiptars (It
>could be called as mocking name to Albanian people) seeling them
>humanitartian help which they get on Kosovo, they even buy a medicaments
>from them, smuggled of course. And here they are dicky that they have a
>nation, and now language....
>Fuck nation which people waiting Bus from Shiptaria (Albania-Kosovo
>maybe - mocking), that driver will smuggle them aspirins. In meantime
>that Dog become multimillionaire . They are stupid like Penis or maybe
>better like  VIBRATOR
>
>That kind of fascism you are supporting? You call us to participate with
>this kind of people? You are insane. It is quite obvious who is
>political motivated here.
>
I have no reason to question your translation.

A person who carried on in this way in an English language project would
very soon be criticized severely, and some would demand some kind of
punishment.

To me this quotation by itself is a strong argument against the separate
projects.  As much as this attitude may thrive in a closed community of
like-minded people, I'm sure that it would not be well received in a
combined serbo-croatian project.  It is clearly not a Neutral Point of
View.  It is arguably more difficult to maintain neutrality in a small
wiki.  It is more likely to pursue the neutrality of the minority than a
broader neutrality because most outsiders simply don't understand the
language, and if the few that do have their own separate wiki there is
no incentive to do so.  A combined project that would force these people
to get along and work at solving their differences would benefit NPOV.

As Wikipedia grows this can have severe long-term implications about the
application of NPOV.

Ec


from_name: geni

body:
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail at itam.ws> wrote:
> mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In
> 99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as
> Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian
> as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR
> Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.

Then why not continue to use it?

> Sabine please, let be honest here, I don't make problem, you make
> problem and don't switch these here. You didn't do your work and this
> level of discussion is not what I expected from member of language
> committee. I have given a proof of (professional) company that do
> translation from/to Montenegrin and you give me companies that don't?
> What that mean?If I find translation company that don't translate to
> Hindu that language don't exist?

Hindi exists and it's written form differs enough from Urdu to make it
a separate language. No shortage of academic papers exist that show
this.

>... You need to find alibi to clear your
> self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts
> that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into
> conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity
> of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language
> of different people.

According to your government the language of Montenegro is Serbian of
the Ijekavian dialect. The Declaration of Montenegrin PEN Center
doesn't claim it as anything more than a dialect.

You status as an independent nation state is not an issue. The
question is how a European language of ~150K could be completely
missed by academics. Romansh has half that number of speakers and has
been documented since at least 1776.

> You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics
> I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly
> deny that. How should I feel about this?

You should consider the possibility of transferring your
understandable national pride to other things.

> You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic
> from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to
> anyone from former Yugoslavia.

Miloshevic is dead.

> This is anti democratic and anti human.

2+2=4 no matter how many believe that it makes 5

> This looks to me, sadly, like situation that happen on beginning of 90
> when Serbs forced all to be under their national identity and because
> this was all wars on Balkan. Your opinion seems to me that is under this
> sort of propaganda.
>

I doubt it. Serbia has not excactly been popular in the international
community of late.

> Today when war is over and we know everything what happen and we did go
> peacefully for our freedom, you make you self blind and you talk me
> about working under Serbian wikipedia?

No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English wikipedia it is
the English language wikipedia. Just because there was once a country
called England does not mean that the wikipedia belongs to that
country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language. In this case the
correct name for the language would probably be Serbo-Croatian.

> It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you
> need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this
> kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to
> translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one
> language.

No at most 22% of your country describes the language they speak as
Montenegrin. That would be a little over 140K people.

--
geni