from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages

body:
--- Petr Kadlec <petr.kadlec at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all
> those WMF-donation pages? I know about
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fundraising_pages
> http://wikimedia.org/fundraising
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home
> and it seems to me they differ among themselves somewhat
> significantly. I have translated the page at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don to czech
> as I thought it would be better if the sitenotice that I have placed
> to w:cs: would better link to a czech version of the page. But now, I
> have no idea where should the czech translation be placed (I suppose
> that m:Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs: is not its final place), I
> cannot add a page to wikimediafoundation.org like the german Wikipedia
> did (as I have no login there), or should I create a fundraising page
> directly on cs: ?

Sorry, everything is a mess right now and there is no documentation yet because
we are making this up as we go along due to the extreme rush to get the WMF
wiki set-up.  Things should settle down a bit in a few days at which point I
will try to figure this out for myself and document that. :)

But we have moved from a one page, one language HTML-only setup to a 21 page
per language setup that is very heavily dependent on wiki templates that take
multiple variables (but if PayPal is irrelevant for cs, then that could be cut
way down). I'm also not sure what the procedure for approving a translation is
now or if there are only a certain set of languages we want translated - for
that you will have to hear from the board.

-- Daniel Mayer, WMF CFO

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list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox


list: foundation-l

body:
--- Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> The version that should be translated is at
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation
> wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta.

The big problem is that non-logged in users see an [Edit] tab for non-protected
pages but when they click it, it takes them to a message saying that to edit
they need to log-in. No page source is provided. This needs to be fixed ASAP.

> I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this.

So do I. But the whole new system was developed over the weekend so I haven't
had time to do much documentation.

> There are already four completed language versions of the fundraising
> page and I want to say thank you to Akl, Alex756, Anthere, Aphaia,
> Elian, Eloquence, Greudin, Kzhr, Paddy, Ryo, Sj, Suisui, Timwi,
> Tipiac, Tomos, Villy, and Yann for their work on these. Thanks also to
> Brion Vibber for making it technically possible to have these pages on
> the new Foundation wiki, and to Tim Starling and Looxix for their
> development work on that wiki. Finally, a very big thanks to Daniel
> Mayer for his extensive work on the fundraising pages and all the
> associated templates, and for agreeing to keep the fundraising bar up
> to date over the next two weeks.

Thank you. :) And a HUGE thank you to all the developers that helped create the
template functionality in the first place. Variables are really neat!

For example, I just have to update
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:Fund_drive and that updates all
copies in 4 different languages, each with their own translation.

Other example:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Monthly/USD

+
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Monthly-en
=
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly
via
{{DonationForm/Monthly-en|CurrencyCode=USD}}

Just change the en to fr, jp, or de to get those versions.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

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subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version

body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Sundays :-( (so I myself
> understood)

I missed that part. :) Everything is OK now - we just don't have much
documentation of what I did (but others seem to be figuring it out on their
own).

-- mav

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from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] favicons

body:
Le Monday 20 September 2004 05:07, Joshua Swink a ?crit :
> Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs,
> and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons
> are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was
> in a tab quickly.
>
> I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote,
> and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They
> are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/.

Nice idea, but we need icons a bit more "international" and less English
based. ;o)

So for Wikiquote, it might be OK, for meta I don't know, and for Wikibooks, we
need something better. And Wikisource and Wiktionary are missing.

BTW, this is the wrong list, so redirect to foundation-l at wikimedia.org.

> Thanks!
>
> --
> Joshua Swink
> yathster at yahoo.com

Best wishes,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] favicons


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Test my lex/yacc parser!

body:
On Saturday 18 September 2004 11:19, Timwi wrote:
> - HTML tags (currently everything between <something> and </something>
>    is treated as an 'extension'; I need to limit that to <nowiki>, <pre>,
>    <math>, <hiero>, <music> and <chem> for now)

Will this list be extensible (without recompiling the parser)?


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:21:16 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
<jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Ewen Caroline wrote:
> > If we (luxembourgish wiki, around 10 regulars so far, working on it :) had
> > to go that way to get our own wiki, I'm sure we wouldn't have gotten it,
> > since noone would have found us etc. Now at least we have a chance to create
> > something original in our language (for those who aren't that familiar with
> > lux, we're only about 250.000 native speakers :)).
>
> There would be no question about setting up a wikipedia when there are
> 250,000 native speakers.  There would be no question, in fact, for
> much smaller language communities than that.
>
> Node tends to engage in invalid FUD.  It's a very different thing to
> contemplate a population of 250,000 native speakers who actually use a
> language, versus an academic exercise.

It's one thing to say that sort of thing in a private e-mail or even
to everybody *but* me, but when you say it so I can read it, that's
asking for a fight, I think, though I'm not really wanting to fight.

Anyhow there are several things here - 1. Caroline's e-mail was in
response to an e-mail talking about paying money and such to get a
Wikipedia hosted. 2. An academic excersise?
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1134/is_3_110/ai_73064217/pg_1
<- Gothic was last heard in the Crimea by outsiders between the 1780s
and 1790s, according to the page (and if travellers passing through
still heard it in the 1780s, it probably survived in remote areas
until the 1800s or 1810s). As is normal with language death,
descendants of the last native speakers undoubtedly knew some of the
language, less with each generation, until perhaps the 1850s or 1870s
(though it could hardly be declared fluency most likely), and I would
not be surprised if there are still a couple of hundred Gothic words
in use by their descendants today in Tatar/Ukrainian/Russian/whatever
language it is they speak now.

Also it is not difficult to find pages on the internet (most of them
with some reference to Matthew Carver) speaking of a Gothic revival of
sorts (the 400 native speakers was my mistake, it turned out to be
from a conworld page which looks confusingly real, declaring there are
2 million Gothic speakers in the Crimea).

Also there is the fact that there are plenty of interested people -
most of Gothic-L would probably be willing to contribute or at least
help in some way.

Of course if you still don't think it's a good idea, you're entitled
to your opinion.

> The question is more about dead languages and conlangs which are
> spoken only by very small numbers of people, and especially when those
> speakers primarily from the perspective of language preservation,
> academic interest, or just as a fun subculture.  For those types of
> communities, it is certainly in line with our educational mission to
> assist them, but it is fairly clear to me that setting up an
> encyclopedia project is not likely to be the best way to help.

> It is my opinion that we should revisit some of our existing wikipedia
> projects for which no community has developed or seems likely to
> develop, and see if we might not better serve those communities (and
> the goals of Wikimedia more broadly) by encouraging wikibooks and
> wiktionaries first.

I hope you are speaking only of conlangs here (I don't think we have
any deadlangs with dead wikis), it would be a shame to delete some of
our small-but-seemingly-dead wikis in small natural languages.

But if you are speaking only of conlangs, then I entirely agree. the
Klingon wikipedia might be moved to KLI webspace, and the Toki Pona
wikipedia might be moved to the Toki Pona website, especially since
Toki Pona itself is copyrighted (Klingon may be too, I'm not sure).
The Lojban wikipedia is a bit questionable in my mind but it seems
that in the minds of others it is on a level with tokipona: and tlh:,
so perhaps it could be moved to the Lojban website?

best,
node


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Min-nan pages import (was Re: starting a new wiki)

body:
On Sep 20, 2004, at 9:09 AM, T?n PekTiong wrote:
> On Sep 20, 2004, at 11:31 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> On Sep 19, 2004, at 11:34 PM, Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
>>> The Walon Wikipedia was fortunate to have received assistance in
>>> migrating its data into Wikipedia.  The Minnan Wikipedia still has
>>> articles sitting out there.  But knowing the developers' time is
>>> highly constrained, we have not complained nor do we see it as a
>>> "right" to receive such help.
>>
>> If someone had *asked* we'd have been happy to help... I at least
>> never heard any request to do this.
>
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-May/010194.html
> I have *asked* if anybody can help to transfer the articles from old
> holopedia to the newly created min-nan
> wikipedia but it seems that developers are too busy.

Unfortunately it seems no one noticed this at the time...

>> At this point it would be harder to merge two separate wikis that
>> have undergone separate development, but we can probably arrange
>> something if that's desired.
>>
>
> The dump is still out there
> http://tmjiang.dyndns.org/wikipedia/wikipedia-backup.sql
> Can we copy the old articles with history to the new min-nan
> wikipedia, to avoid conflict, we can try to
> add a tag to old article name to be xxxx_old or something like that.
> Once the xxxx_old articles are moved
> to the new min-nan wikipedia, we can do the merge or rename of the
> articles.

Can someone take a look at this? I'll try to get to it later in the
week if not (I'm at a conference right now with limited free time).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Min-nan pages import (was Re: starting a new wiki)

body:
On Sep 20, 2004, at 9:09 AM, T?n PekTiong wrote:
> On Sep 20, 2004, at 11:31 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> On Sep 19, 2004, at 11:34 PM, Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
>>> The Walon Wikipedia was fortunate to have received assistance in
>>> migrating its data into Wikipedia.  The Minnan Wikipedia still has
>>> articles sitting out there.  But knowing the developers' time is
>>> highly constrained, we have not complained nor do we see it as a
>>> "right" to receive such help.
>>
>> If someone had *asked* we'd have been happy to help... I at least
>> never heard any request to do this.
>
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-May/010194.html
> I have *asked* if anybody can help to transfer the articles from old
> holopedia to the newly created min-nan
> wikipedia but it seems that developers are too busy.

Unfortunately it seems no one noticed this at the time...

>> At this point it would be harder to merge two separate wikis that
>> have undergone separate development, but we can probably arrange
>> something if that's desired.
>>
>
> The dump is still out there
> http://tmjiang.dyndns.org/wikipedia/wikipedia-backup.sql
> Can we copy the old articles with history to the new min-nan
> wikipedia, to avoid conflict, we can try to
> add a tag to old article name to be xxxx_old or something like that.
> Once the xxxx_old articles are moved
> to the new min-nan wikipedia, we can do the merge or rename of the
> articles.

Can someone take a look at this? I'll try to get to it later in the
week if not (I'm at a conference right now with limited free time).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Petr Kadlec

body:
Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all
those WMF-donation pages? I know about
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fundraising_pages
http://wikimedia.org/fundraising
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home
and it seems to me they differ among themselves somewhat
significantly. I have translated the page at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don to czech
as I thought it would be better if the sitenotice that I have placed
to w:cs: would better link to a czech version of the page. But now, I
have no idea where should the czech translation be placed (I suppose
that m:Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs: is not its final place), I
cannot add a page to wikimediafoundation.org like the german Wikipedia
did (as I have no login there), or should I create a fundraising page
directly on cs: ?

And, regarding the translation: I have left out those PayPal links
(and left only one in the text), as PayPal cannot be used from
Czechia, so they are of no use to czech users (MoneyBookers work
fine). I hope this is OK?

And a final technical question: The translation request says "Note
that these pages do *not* use wiki-markup, but only HTML." But the
Translation requests/WMF-don/En: is in wiki-markup! I have used
wiki-markup as I used the en: version as the source; I could change it
to HTML, but...should I?

Regards,
Petr Kadlec (a sysop as cs:User:Mormegil)


subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation

body:
--- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I still like this idea.  I think we should consider a proper
> production run of one or two nice items, from a much cheaper
> manufacturer than cafe-press.  They won't go to waste; among other
> things, we can send some of them to donors who give over a certain
> amount.

That would be a very good idea so that we can sell/give out items at meetups
and other special events.

> On the other hand, distributing physical items with our logo is a gift
> that keeps on giving... as friends (even people who rarely use the
> web) see you wearing your shirt around, or guests admire your bizarre
> drink coasters at a party.

Yes - promotion is good. Giving a person a t-shirt and a bumper sticker for
donating 50 bucks (for example) may increase donations. But we have to work out
the logistics of that first.

> When I wrote in favor of having "100,000 physical instances of WM
> products distributed", this is the kind of product I was thinking of.

Neat goal. :)

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>Le Monday 20 September 2004 05:07, Joshua Swink a ?crit :
>
>
>>Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs,
>>and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons
>>are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was
>>in a tab quickly.
>>
>>I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote,
>>and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They
>>are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/.
>>
>>
>
>Nice idea, but we need icons a bit more "international" and less English
>based. ;o)
>
>So for Wikiquote, it might be OK, for meta I don't know, and for Wikibooks, we
>need something better. And Wikisource and Wiktionary are missing.
>
Given that we have several skins available one way to handle the problem
is to set each of your commonly used projects to a different skin.

Ec


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Gothic Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> When did I say parents *will* teach their children Gothic as a first
> language? Plenty already have.
>
> What's important to remember is that while in Western Europe, Gothic
> died quite some time ago, in the Crimea, Gothic died perhaps around
> the same time as Cornish did, or maybe even later, in Cornwall. And we
> have a Cornish Wikipedia...

According to our article on the Gothic language, Crimean Gothic is a
different language to the older Gothic language known from the Codex
Argenteus. I assumed we were talking about creating an encyclopedia
based on the ancient language. Again according to our article on the
subject, all that is known about the language comes from a single 16th
century letter, giving a vocabulary of about 80 words. I fail to see how
parents can teach their children a language of which only 80 words are
known.

All that is known about Ancient Gothic comes from a bible translation
plus a few fragments, which at least gives you enough to work with that
you might plausibly consider writing an encyclopedia in it.

Can you please provide a reference for your statement that 400 children
are currently being raised in Gothic? I couldn't find anything with a
quick web search. Which variety of Gothic are they taught?

-- Tim Starling


list: wikien-l

from_name: Harry Smith

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins....apparently contray to
	Blocking policy

body:
On the Refusal to serve in the Israeli military page,
Lance6Wins added the following:

Two Israeli journalists, Amos Harel of [[Haaretz]] and
a person from the Israel Broadcasting Agency, have
written a book in Hebrew entitled (in translation)
"The Seventh War".  The book is based upon extensive
interview with [[Hamas]] leaders and others.  In the
book the authors state that

:It was the Israeli left and your peace camp that
ultimately encouraged us to continue with our suicide
attacks.

:We tried, through our attacks, to create
fragmentation and dissention within Israeli society,
and the left-wing's reaction was proof that this was
indeed the right approach. When we heard about the
'Pilots' Letter' [written and publicized last year by
27 Israel Air Force pilots who refused to take part in
bombing missions against terrorist leaders in Arab
towns], and the elite soldiers who refused to serve
[in Judea, Samaria and Gaza], it strengthened those in
our camp who promoted the idea of suicide
bombers...[http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=68735]

Zero0000 has remove this twice, his only comment is
shown below.
11:36, 13 Sep 2004 Zero0000 (rv. the next time you
post Arutz Sheva crap I will block you.)

===Followup September 20th 2004===
Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins from Wikipedia.
[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy]] is defined.  It
specifically states that unpopular opinions are not to
be blocked.
:===Unpopular opinions===

:Blocking may not be used to prevent a user from
posting unpopular opinions. A content dispute between
users should be settled on the article's talk page or
on their own user talk pages. If it cannot be resolved
that way, there is a clearly defined dispute
resolution procedure to resolve contentious issues.
See [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution]] for more.

Do blocks such as those constitute
[[Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator abuse]]?

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subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF

body:
Angela_ wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Although you should check your final result against the current revision
>>on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes)
>>
>>
>I would like to request that everyone stops using the abbreviation WMF
>to refer to the Wikimedia Foundation. We do not own the domain name
>WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will. If people make the effort
>not to use it, it will reduce confusion and misdirected traffic.
>
>Although I quote Sj above, this is in no way directed only at him.
>It's bad enough that we don't own wikimedia.com that I think efforts
>should be made to prevent even more links to sites that are not really
>us.
>
>
Good point, both in the particular and in general.  To me WMF normally
refers to the World Monetary Fund.  It made me wonder what they had to
do with Wikimedia fundraising. :-)

The problem with initialisms is bigger than unavailable domain names.
There are other possible misunderstandings when an initialism is used.
One example that led to a furious exchange more than a year ago was over
"LOL".  The user intended it as "Lots of Luck" to encourage the
contributor; the recipient read it as "Laughing out Loud" and felt that
his work was being insulted.

Ec


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official Wikimedia roadmap?

body:
I certainly agree on the principle. Practically, some thoughts were
already given by Danny and Sj on this if I remember well, and there was
already some work done in that perspective, when I suggested we create
the hardware requirement page so as to help Mav in his budgeting work.

There is one point on which I do not agree with you though. It has to do
with the projects launching typically.

If we do what you suggest (ie, indicating the board planned road, to be
reviewed/approved by the community), it implies we are having a top down
approach entirely. Besides, it makes it appear we have already taken
decisions in our mind of what to do and what not to do, even though we
may just be thinking of it.

For example, you seem to suggest that 1) the board should indicates its
desire for a wikinews project (as a good idea to pursue... which implies
there already is a good and definitive description of the project to be
based our decision upon), then that 2) the project should be reviewed
and approved by the community.

It seems to me this approach is PRECISELY the one which was recently
rejected and that there was a general desire for the community to be the
motor of road map.

Hence, though I definitly have some opinions myself, I will prefer to
have this road map collectively written, rather than the board giving a
strong steering direction.

In this, we differ very much :-)

Anthere

Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is
> already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we
> create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years.
>
> When working on the fundraising pages, I could not find a good, officially
> sanctioned "future activities" page on meta or elsewhere (if I missed
> something, please let me know). I think that this, together with a well-
> written mission statement, would be quite important to educate people
> about what Wikimedia is about. This could address many common criticisms
> (Wikipedia is not reliable etc.) and hopefully put to rest the
> misconception that Wikimedia and Wikipedia are essentially the same
> project.
>
> What I am thinking of is a document roughly with three columns:
>
> Quarter   Projects               Technology            Financial
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Q4/2004   - Launch Wikinews [*]  - MW: Database schema - Quarterly
>           - German Wikipedia CD    redesign              fundraising
>
> with each of these items linking to detailed project pages. This could
> then be combined with some prose that outlines our vision for future
> projects and needs.
>
> I want us to become better aware of the interdependencies between and
> financial needs of our projects, otherwise we might run into some serious
> trouble when e.g. we start some well-intended offline edition without a
> solid peer review process in place.
>
> There's a problem with this, however, in that the board would have to
> decide *now* which projects it thinks will be executed in the future, even
> if there has not yet been a vote or a full feasibility study on these
> projects. In order to address this problem, I added a "[*]" above, which
> would then be resolved to
>
>   [*] Tentative. There is consensus among board members that this
>       [[m:Category:Proposed projects|proposed project]] is a good idea
>       worth pursuing, but no extensive community review has happened yet.
>
> Hence, I would suggest that the roadmap essentially would reflect the
> board's collective bias on the various proposed projects.
>
> What are your thoughts on that? We could try to write this together on
> Meta, but the Board would at least have to provide a rough "consensus
> paper" to base it on (e.g. which projects the board definitely wants to
> do, which technology needs it definitely sees etc.). After some community
> work, it would then be handed back to the board for editing and the final
> stamp of approval.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik


body:
> To everybody:
> And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is
> there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that
> down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages
> and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done.
>
> -- mav

The fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Sundays :-( (so I myself
understood)

ant


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: Fund drive progress (was Re:New fundraising page
	version)

body:
The french donation page was tested by Aurevilly yesterday evening (2
hours before the start). It worked perfectly :-) Thanks a lot Mav.

ant

Daniel Mayer a ?crit:
> --- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>To everybody:
>>And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is
>>there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that
>>down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages
>>and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done.
>
>
> Nevermind. I'm done for now with the changes I wanted to make to the English,
> French, and German versions of the fundraising page and Suisui is doing the
> same thing for the Japanese version.
>
> So I went ahead and updated the fund drive template on the WMF wiki.
>
> See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising
>
> We are at $1,294.34 USD so far (the green bar needs to be a bit wider before it
> will show any text).
>
> The bar is updated by hand by those people with read access to the PayPal
> account. I'll be able to update the fund drive bar at least a couple times a
> day - others who have access are welcome to make updates as well. :)
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap?

body:
Le Sunday 19 September 2004 17:55, Erik Moeller a ?crit :
> Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is
> already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we
> create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years.

Yes, excellent.
I added a paragraph about WSIS: the World Summit on Information Society.
I think that really something in which the WMF should take part.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Three-year_plan
http://www.itu.int/wsis/

> Regards,
>
> Erik

Regards,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Simplified/Traditional Chinese conversion

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> It horrifies me personally to think about doing anything of this sort,
> i.e. having markup to specify en-us and en-gb spellings.  What a waste
> of energy, if you ask me.

Perhaps a better use for it would be to merge the Indonesian and
Malaysian wikis. The two dialects are, according to some sources, only
as different as en-us and en-gb.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test my lex/yacc parser!

references:
<cigum2$i19$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c04091910144fb9fc68@mail.gmail.com>
	<cil3do$mpb$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:05:23 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Rowan Collins wrote:
>
> > Have you worked out how to deal with "MagicWord" i18n yet?
>
> Not entirely, but mostly :)
>
> Here are my thoughts:
>
> * Redirects are not passed through the lex/yacc parser at all. They can
>    be recognised with a regular expression that takes the magic words
>    into account.

I know the current version doesn't do anything, but I've been meaning
for a while to finalise a patch to show a message saying "This is a
redirect to [[foo]]". It's always annoyed me that it parses as though
it were a numbered list. I was hoping we could then post-process it to
say "This is a *broken* redirect", and even "This is a double redirect
(and therefore broken)" etc. How hard would it be to recognise "first
token of text begins with #"

> * Things like __NOTOC__ and stuff can be handled like this:
>    * Regard *everything* of the form __CAPITALLETTERS__ as a special
>      token

Actually, it can be lower case currently. Unless we're going to hunt
the database for examples where it is, best just treat
__anystringofletters__ as needing to be investigated.

> * The template pseudo-variables (e.g. CURRENTMONTH) are similarly
>    handled in post-processing.

By which, do you mean they are treated as templates and then
recognised as magic after? Just curious.

> * HTML tags and extension names are either not internationalised, or all
>    translations of them are made to work on all Wikipedias.

That seems a bit of a step backwards to me. Actually, everything that
looks like a SGML tag has to be treated one of three ways:

a) it is an extension, and everything from there to its partner should
be unparsed / sent somewhere else for parsing
b) it's an allowed HTML tag, and should be put in the parse-tree as
that kind of element, with its contents parsed "independently" (sort
of)
c) it is neither of the above, and needs entity escaping so that it
doesn't get as far as the browser still looking like HTML

Perhaps extensions could be made to return a parse sub-tree (even if
it only has one element). Then we could use a HTML "extension" bound
to all allowed HTML tags, which just called the original parser back
on the contents of the tags. Similarly, a no-match handler would
escape the tags in question and then parse the whole string back for
normal parsing. Or would that be hopelessly inefficient?

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Sj

body:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:11:28 +0200, PR Wikipedie <petr.kadlec at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is a little problem that I do not have an account on
> wikimediafoundation.org (and I am not allowed to make one, obviously),
> so that I cannot even copy the source. But AFAICS the page is very
> similar (on the first sight identical, except the bar) to
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En:, which
> is the version I have used as the base for my translation
> (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs:).

Hi Mormegil,

Thanks for helping translate the new donation page!   Because visitors
cannot see the source on WMF.org, a current copy of the source for the
donation page is kept at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En:
(Although you should check your final result against the current revision
on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes)

You put the translation in the right place; it may be a little while
before it is migrated to the foundation site.

Cheers,
  +sj+
 _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
> >2. An academic excersise?
> >http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1134/is_3_110/ai_73064217/pg_1
> ><- Gothic was last heard in the Crimea by outsiders between the 1780s
> >and 1790s, according to the page (and if travellers passing through
> >still heard it in the 1780s, it probably survived in remote areas
> >until the 1800s or 1810s). As is normal with language death,
> >descendants of the last native speakers undoubtedly knew some of the
> >language, less with each generation, until perhaps the 1850s or 1870s
> >(though it could hardly be declared fluency most likely), and I would
> >not be surprised if there are still a couple of hundred Gothic words
> >in use by their descendants today in Tatar/Ukrainian/Russian/whatever
> >language it is they speak now.
> >
> >
> I can't speak for everyone here (obviously), but IMO there's nothing
> wrong with promoting a Gothic revival of course, just a concern that a
> Gothic Wikipedia is not currently the best way to do it.  It seems it is
> not actually spoken by anyone fluently, or used in day-to-day
> communication, which is the sort of thing Wikipedias are for (for
> looking up encyclopedia-type facts).

Actually there are fluent speakers (though no native speakers). I'm
not sure about communication on a day-to-day basis, but I do know that
I have seen entire e-mail conversations on lists as well as entire
webpages in Gothic.

> It is apparently an interesting
> language, with some amount of information available and a community of
> people interested in it, which would make it a good candidate for
> hosting the extant historical texts in wikisource, and developing a
> working dictionary of the language in a Gothic Wiktionary.

Actually there are already people who are fluent in Gothic, and their
internet connectivity percentage is probably much higher than for
other such populations because the core of that community is
academians (though there are plenty of general enthusiasts who are
fluent).

There's probably not much of a point of hosting the extant historical
texts in WikiSource as a major project as they're already available
online for free (under what license, I am not sure).

> If that were
> done, and if people started to use the language, then the case for a
> Gothic Wikipedia would be much stronger.  It's just odd for there to be
> an encyclopedia for a language in which there is apparently no
> contemporary writing and no good dictionary.

No good dictionary? What? There are quite a few good Gothic
dictionaries, a couple of them available on the Internet. There *is*
contemporary writing, i.e. e-mails, webpages, and a small collection
of short poetry. In fact there are even neologisms for things like
"computer", "e-mail", and even "electric bill" (of course these are
recent inventions, but they were derived similar to the way neologisms
in Icelandic or in formal Arabic have been derived, ie using existing
words in the language rather than borrowing).

--node


body:
> We do that with a CafePress account. See
> http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia

I still like this idea.  I think we should consider a proper
production run of one or two nice items, from a much cheaper
manufacturer than cafe-press.  They won't go to waste; among other
things, we can send some of them to donors who give over a certain
amount.

Perhaps a new design contest is in order?

As for myself, I love the tile coasters offered via cafepress, but
wish the image were updated to reflect the new logo and skin.  Erik,
are you still maintaining this account?  A water bottle and
winter-suitable jacket would also be good additions to our list.

> IIRC we haven't broke $1000 profit yet for our CafePress account. Yet we took
> in well over $50,000 the first half this year in pure donations.

On the other hand, distributing physical items with our logo is a gift
that keeps on giving... as friends (even people who rarely use the
web) see you wearing your shirt around, or guests admire your bizarre
drink coasters at a party.

When I wrote in favor of having "100,000 physical instances of WM
products distributed", this is the kind of product I was thinking of.

(The upcoming CD & DVD distributions are a fantastic start -- but
unless you have an obnoxious brightly-colored CD-case design like AOL
does, those kinds of products don't "keep giving" in quite the same
way.)

--
+sj+


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Well, you have a number of different options.

The first and probably best would be to go to Wikipedia forks such as
Wikinfo and mcfly (ok, maybe not mcfly) and tell them how the folks at
the Wikimedia organisation are... well,   describe your plight. Some
forks really hate the Wikimedia foundation and will feel very sorry
for you and assist you with such a project, whereas others seem to be
meant more to augment Wikipedia and their users still contribute to
Wikipedia on a regular basis.

Another option would be to pay for private hosting and set up the
MediaWiki software yourself, which I can tell you is not going to be
very pleasant if you're not experienced in setting up server-side
apps. You could probably also hire somebody to maintain the software
for you (often hosting companies will offer such services), but that's
just another additional cost.

The only other option I can think of at the moment is to use one of
the free wiki hosts available on the internet. Let me tell you in
advance, they all suck. Really, really suck. But obviously, they are
free so you don't have to pay anybody as you would in the second
scenario.

best,
node

ps
I thought the final decision was to go ahead and create ang:?

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:36:25 -0400, James R. Johnson
<modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> So, in the interest of the Anglo-Saxon wikipedia, how do I, personally, set
> it up outside the wikimedia foundation, so that I can get it started?
>
> James
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Evan Prodromou
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 2:16 AM
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki
>
> Tim Starling wrote:
>
> > People underestimate the cost involved in setting up a wiki.
>
> Once again I'd like to point out that having a language-specific Wikipedia
> is
> not usually the best way to organize, promote, or develop a language.
>
> It's probably much better for a group of interested people working on a
> small or
> endangered language to set up a general-purpose wiki that encompasses the
> Wikimedia ideas of a Wikipedia, Wiktionary, a language-learning Wikibook,
> and
> perhaps a few other community- or discussion-oriented purposes.
>
> There are a _lot_ of free or low-cost PHP hosting services that can host a
> wiki.
> Mediawiki can be hard to set up on these services, since MySQL usually costs
>
> significantly more, but there are a number of other wiki engines* that work
> with
>   flat files and don't require a database.
>
> Anyways: I think the best strategy is to tell people who want to have a
> Wikipedia in their language to go start a wiki somewhere else. If they can
> show
> that they have a robust community that can support a Wikipedia, then they
> should
> get an xx.wikipedia.org domain (as well as other xx.wikisomething.org
> stuff).
>
> ~ESP
>
> * I can hear it now: "Huh? There are other wiki engines? There are other
> wikis?
> I can set up my own? Huh?"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Oh, also there is the additional option of setting up shop at a
Wikipedia that has had little or no action. This is *not* something I
would encourage! Please exhaust all other options first. Depending on
which language you choose though, it could take a very short time or a
very long time for anybody to realise what you're doing. And if you
can round up a good sized group of contributors, and you get up a
sizable number of articles, when you *are* eventually found out there
is a good chance the content will be kept, but moved to a different
subdomain (most likely ang:).

As I said before though, that is the last thing you should try! Unlike
the other options there is the inevitability of getting caught, and
the fact that it's against the rules. So really I would not recommend
this except as a last resort, and if you *do* do it, choose a language
with low internet connectivity and a small speaker population overall.

--node

ps
Seriously, don't do that.

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:49:51 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, you have a number of different options.
>
> The first and probably best would be to go to Wikipedia forks such as
> Wikinfo and mcfly (ok, maybe not mcfly) and tell them how the folks at
> the Wikimedia organisation are... well,   describe your plight. Some
> forks really hate the Wikimedia foundation and will feel very sorry
> for you and assist you with such a project, whereas others seem to be
> meant more to augment Wikipedia and their users still contribute to
> Wikipedia on a regular basis.
>
> Another option would be to pay for private hosting and set up the
> MediaWiki software yourself, which I can tell you is not going to be
> very pleasant if you're not experienced in setting up server-side
> apps. You could probably also hire somebody to maintain the software
> for you (often hosting companies will offer such services), but that's
> just another additional cost.
>
> The only other option I can think of at the moment is to use one of
> the free wiki hosts available on the internet. Let me tell you in
> advance, they all suck. Really, really suck. But obviously, they are
> free so you don't have to pay anybody as you would in the second
> scenario.
>
> best,
> node
>
> ps
> I thought the final decision was to go ahead and create ang:?
>
>
>
> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:36:25 -0400, James R. Johnson
> <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > So, in the interest of the Anglo-Saxon wikipedia, how do I, personally, set
> > it up outside the wikimedia foundation, so that I can get it started?
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> > [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Evan Prodromou
> > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 2:16 AM
> > To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki
> >
> > Tim Starling wrote:
> >
> > > People underestimate the cost involved in setting up a wiki.
> >
> > Once again I'd like to point out that having a language-specific Wikipedia
> > is
> > not usually the best way to organize, promote, or develop a language.
> >
> > It's probably much better for a group of interested people working on a
> > small or
> > endangered language to set up a general-purpose wiki that encompasses the
> > Wikimedia ideas of a Wikipedia, Wiktionary, a language-learning Wikibook,
> > and
> > perhaps a few other community- or discussion-oriented purposes.
> >
> > There are a _lot_ of free or low-cost PHP hosting services that can host a
> > wiki.
> > Mediawiki can be hard to set up on these services, since MySQL usually costs
> >
> > significantly more, but there are a number of other wiki engines* that work
> > with
> >   flat files and don't require a database.
> >
> > Anyways: I think the best strategy is to tell people who want to have a
> > Wikipedia in their language to go start a wiki somewhere else. If they can
> > show
> > that they have a robust community that can support a Wikipedia, then they
> > should
> > get an xx.wikipedia.org domain (as well as other xx.wikisomething.org
> > stuff).
> >
> > ~ESP
> >
> > * I can hear it now: "Huh? There are other wiki engines? There are other
> > wikis?
> > I can set up my own? Huh?"
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>2. An academic excersise?
>http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1134/is_3_110/ai_73064217/pg_1
><- Gothic was last heard in the Crimea by outsiders between the 1780s
>and 1790s, according to the page (and if travellers passing through
>still heard it in the 1780s, it probably survived in remote areas
>until the 1800s or 1810s). As is normal with language death,
>descendants of the last native speakers undoubtedly knew some of the
>language, less with each generation, until perhaps the 1850s or 1870s
>(though it could hardly be declared fluency most likely), and I would
>not be surprised if there are still a couple of hundred Gothic words
>in use by their descendants today in Tatar/Ukrainian/Russian/whatever
>language it is they speak now.
>
>
I can't speak for everyone here (obviously), but IMO there's nothing
wrong with promoting a Gothic revival of course, just a concern that a
Gothic Wikipedia is not currently the best way to do it.  It seems it is
not actually spoken by anyone fluently, or used in day-to-day
communication, which is the sort of thing Wikipedias are for (for
looking up encyclopedia-type facts).  It is apparently an interesting
language, with some amount of information available and a community of
people interested in it, which would make it a good candidate for
hosting the extant historical texts in wikisource, and developing a
working dictionary of the language in a Gothic Wiktionary.  If that were
done, and if people started to use the language, then the case for a
Gothic Wikipedia would be much stronger.  It's just odd for there to be
an encyclopedia for a language in which there is apparently no
contemporary writing and no good dictionary.

-Mark


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

references:
<cigum2$i19$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c04091910144fb9fc68@mail.gmail.com>
	<cil3do$mpb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c04092005563f022703@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:56:36 +0100, Rowan Collins
<rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:05:23 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> > Rowan Collins wrote:
> >
> > > Have you worked out how to deal with "MagicWord" i18n yet?
> >
> > Not entirely, but mostly :)
> >
> > Here are my thoughts:
> >
> > * Redirects are not passed through the lex/yacc parser at all. They can
> >    be recognised with a regular expression that takes the magic words
> >    into account.
>
> I know the current version doesn't do anything, but I've been meaning
> for a while to finalise a patch to show a message saying "This is a
> redirect to [[foo]]". It's always annoyed me that it parses as though
> it were a numbered list. I was hoping we could then post-process it to
> say "This is a *broken* redirect", and even "This is a double redirect
> (and therefore broken)" etc. How hard would it be to recognise "first
> token of text begins with #"
How about just changing the first redirect to point to the page the
second one is pointing to? That is change:
A -> B -> C
to
A -> C
so when people show up at a they just see "this is a redirect" rather
than "this is a broken redirect" due to the software having solved
that automatically.
>
> > * Things like __NOTOC__ and stuff can be handled like this:
> >    * Regard *everything* of the form __CAPITALLETTERS__ as a special
> >      token
>
> Actually, it can be lower case currently. Unless we're going to hunt
> the database for examples where it is, best just treat
> __anystringofletters__ as needing to be investigated.
>
> > * The template pseudo-variables (e.g. CURRENTMONTH) are similarly
> >    handled in post-processing.
>
> By which, do you mean they are treated as templates and then
> recognised as magic after? Just curious.
>
> > * HTML tags and extension names are either not internationalised, or all
> >    translations of them are made to work on all Wikipedias.
>
> That seems a bit of a step backwards to me. Actually, everything that
> looks like a SGML tag has to be treated one of three ways:
>
> a) it is an extension, and everything from there to its partner should
> be unparsed / sent somewhere else for parsing
> b) it's an allowed HTML tag, and should be put in the parse-tree as
> that kind of element, with its contents parsed "independently" (sort
> of)
> c) it is neither of the above, and needs entity escaping so that it
> doesn't get as far as the browser still looking like HTML
>
> Perhaps extensions could be made to return a parse sub-tree (even if
> it only has one element). Then we could use a HTML "extension" bound
> to all allowed HTML tags, which just called the original parser back
> on the contents of the tags. Similarly, a no-match handler would
> escape the tags in question and then parse the whole string back for
> normal parsing. Or would that be hopelessly inefficient?
>
> --
> Rowan Collins BSc
> [IMSoP]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Ricky Beam

subject: [Wikitech-l] What should I buy?

body:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>2.  Rackspace is now at a premium, HOWEVER, we should not worry a LOT
>about that, since we are going to have to get a 2nd Rack very soon no
>matter what we decide today.  There is approximately 3U left in the
>rack, maybe 4U.

Maybe now would be a good time to visit the idea of blade servers?  Sun,
HP/Compaq, and IBM all have decent blade centers now. (And there are
"clones" out there as well.)  [Ok, so Sun isn't listing the Opteron
blades yet.]

Has anyone bought a serial console switch yet? (as has been discussed
before.)

--Ricky


references:
<cigum2$i19$1@sea.gmane.org>	<9f02ca4c04091910144fb9fc68@mail.gmail.com>
	<cil3do$mpb$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:

> * The "Media", "Image" and other namespaces are handled in
>   post-processing. The parser sees them as text within the link target.

 From the point of view of  semantics and abstract syntax, it would make
some sense for these to be represented in the AST.  If it turns out to
be difficult to do in lex/yacc that's fine, but perhaps a first-pass
postprocessor could stick them into the tree?  It'd be particularly
useful when retargeting the parser to non-HTML outputs.  Depending on
implementation, it might even be as efficient or more efficient, since
it'd avoid an "if this is really an image, render it this way" check on
every link node in the AST.

-Mark


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Anthere-
> For example, you seem to suggest that 1) the board should indicates its
> desire for a wikinews project (as a good idea to pursue... which implies
> there already is a good and definitive description of the project to be
> based our decision upon), then that 2) the project should be reviewed
> and approved by the community.

Approved or denied. The community doesn't have to rubber stamp the board's
suggestions. However, we want a document that reflects the official -
tentative - Wikimedia position. That position may change at any time, but
in practice it probably won't change that much.

There are two approaches I see to create such a document:
1) The board tries to find the things everyone (in the board, and largely
outside) agrees on. Being trusted by the community, they are a good set of
representatives to make this decision. They compile it into a list, and
the community builds the roadmap on that list, marking of course anything
that has even the slightest potential for controversy as tentative.

2) The community makes the decisions right from the start. This is very
difficult, because by the time a project has this level of community
interest, it is almost ready to launch - not very useful for a roadmap if
you can't look into the future. I don't see this working unless we create
a systematic process by which the community evaluates and rates / votes on
proposed projects early on.

Do you have any other ideas? If not, which one of these approaches do you
prefer?

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [WikiEN-l] A few common sense suggestions for election day

body:
Mark, good to see some planning on this early on. I think these are
very good guidelines. It would also be nice to set up some boilerplate
configurations with sections and such, so we can avoid edit conflicts
as much as possible too.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:47:41 -0400, Mark Pellegrini
<mapellegrini at comcast.net> wrote:
> I was trying to imagine what [[template:In the News]] is going to
> look like come election night, and my mental projections are not good.
> I'd like to suggest a few common sense things that we should agree upon
> *now* while we still have plenty of time to agrue about it:
>
> 1) Template:In the News should have a single link to [[2000 election in
> progress]]
> or a page to that effect. Rather than having people in a deathmatch to edit
> the main page template, they can fight there instead.
>
> 2) Absolutely no one is allowed to call any states until 24 (or more) hours
> after the
> polls close.
>
> 3) I also suspect there's going to be a lot of vandalism to the main page
> templates
> (especially in-the-news), so we might consider protecting it in advance (or
> at first
> sign of trouble) for the duraction of the election.
>
> --Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
Andrew Lih
andrew.lih at gmail.com


from_name: Angela

body:
Petr Kadlecwrote:
> Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all
> those WMF-donation pages? ...The translation request says "Note
> that these pages do *not* use wiki-markup, but only HTML.

Sorry but I had not realized the [[m:Translation requests/WMF-don]]
page existed or I would have updated it. The instructions there are
now out of date as the pages have moved to the Foundation website. All
donations pages are now in wikitext and they rely heavily on the
template system that mav described at
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/001021.html

The version that should be translated is at
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation
wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta.
I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this.

There are already four completed language versions of the fundraising
page and I want to say thank you to Akl, Alex756, Anthere, Aphaia,
Elian, Eloquence, Greudin, Kzhr, Paddy, Ryo, Sj, Suisui, Timwi,
Tipiac, Tomos, Villy, and Yann for their work on these. Thanks also to
Brion Vibber for making it technically possible to have these pages on
the new Foundation wiki, and to Tim Starling and Looxix for their
development work on that wiki. Finally, a very big thanks to Daniel
Mayer for his extensive work on the fundraising pages and all the
associated templates, and for agreeing to keep the fundraising bar up
to date over the next two weeks.

The drive updates can be seen on any of the fundraising pages, and on
the http://wikimediafoundation.org home page.

Angela.


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> But if you are speaking only of conlangs, then I entirely agree. the
> Klingon wikipedia might be moved to KLI webspace, and the Toki Pona
> wikipedia might be moved to the Toki Pona website, especially since
> Toki Pona itself is copyrighted (Klingon may be too, I'm not sure).
> The Lojban wikipedia is a bit questionable in my mind but it seems
> that in the minds of others it is on a level with tokipona: and tlh:,
> so perhaps it could be moved to the Lojban website?

Well, I think we should seriously consider a process for generating
consensus on these questions and then we should make some changes.

What is really needed, but complex to generate, is a consensus policy
to guide future decision making.  I feel that it is not necessary for
such a consensus policy to be 100% consistent with past practice, i.e.
we can continue to support some projects that we would not agree to
start today.

--Jimbo


subject:
[Foundation-l] Proposal for multilingual coordination on
	foundation website

body:
Wow, you're talking about a lot of things here, Ryo.  :-)
I'll try to summarize some of them; new thoughts indicated by "+".
(At the end : a suggestion for better-audited translations, for sensitive pages)

[I.] Separate language-independent content : layout, images, data (...)
 * Templates are useful for this.
 + All this can have its own talk: page

[II.] Identify key languages which are accessible to most translators
as source languages
 * distinguish "original content" from "source" for translation;
original may not be in a key language
 + distinguish source for translation from "target content in key
language";  sources for translation should be simple and free of
idiom.  A simplified english source for translation may not be the
idiomatic english translation of the original.
 + sources will some day need to be available in multiple key languages

[III.] For simple pages, have a lazy top-down translation process
 * Page P comes from a group writing in one language.
 * Discussion of content takes place on Talk:P
 + P is translated into key languages, then into target languages.
 + Version control is handled by checking the last timestamp on P (or
the simplifies source used) and on the target translation.
 ++  At some point, work on the original can be frozen to let others catch up.

[IV.] For complex pages, break them into simple pages
 * Complex page Q gets content from people writing in a few languages.
 * Separate Q into single-language subparts; treat each part as in
III., using templates.

====
[III.] and [IV.] are good ways to start.  We will eventually need
better version-control for pages whose timeliness and synchronization
is most important; see [V.] below.
====

<-- slightly gory details follow -->

[V.] Unlazy Translation, originals in many languages, single source
for translation
 (Especially for pages where content is being added to the same
sections in many languages, in which case the above method won't work)

==LINKAGE==
 + Identify pages whose content is linked together. Let's call the set
of mutually intertranslated pages on a given topic a cluster of pages.
 ++ Decide on a single source page for a cluster.  It could contain
content in multiple languages -- each paragraph listed once in each
key language -- or just content in (simplified) english.

==PROPAGATION==
 + Provide a way to flag a change as 'needing translation'. (like
major/minor edits)
 + Changes to each content page are translated to the source page.
Changes to the source page are propagated to each content page.

==VERSION Control==
 + Track version numbers for each page.  (Autoincluded somewhere on
each revision)
 ++ Provide a way to say "Updated from page S, revision XX" when
translating S into a page T  (or more generally, when synchronising S
with T).  This could be done in tandem with a new translation
interface, which shows S and T versions together while one is updating
T.
 + Create a db-generated overview for each cluster, showing for each page
 + ~ When it was last synched with the source (version #s of both;
changes made to it since then should be propagated to the source; this
will usually be the current version)
 + ~  When the source was last synched with it (version #s of both;
changes to the source since then should be propagated to it)

The overview will let you can see exactly how far a particular change
has propagated.  (bg v.49 was synched with source v.112, but only ja:
has been updated from the source since then...)

Note that "when page P was last synched with me" is a transitive
property (if the source is synched with page A, which is then synched
with page B, the source is now synched with both A and B); so while
many pages will be directly synched with other pages in the cluster
rather than the source, this overview can still be kept current.

You can modify this process to allow for multiple sources for
translation (a kernel of sources, in a sense), rather than just one.

--
+sj+


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
So, in the interest of the Anglo-Saxon wikipedia, how do I, personally, set
it up outside the wikimedia foundation, so that I can get it started?

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Evan Prodromou
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 2:16 AM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

Tim Starling wrote:

> People underestimate the cost involved in setting up a wiki.

Once again I'd like to point out that having a language-specific Wikipedia
is
not usually the best way to organize, promote, or develop a language.

It's probably much better for a group of interested people working on a
small or
endangered language to set up a general-purpose wiki that encompasses the
Wikimedia ideas of a Wikipedia, Wiktionary, a language-learning Wikibook,
and
perhaps a few other community- or discussion-oriented purposes.

There are a _lot_ of free or low-cost PHP hosting services that can host a
wiki.
Mediawiki can be hard to set up on these services, since MySQL usually costs

significantly more, but there are a number of other wiki engines* that work
with
  flat files and don't require a database.

Anyways: I think the best strategy is to tell people who want to have a
Wikipedia in their language to go start a wiki somewhere else. If they can
show
that they have a robust community that can support a Wikipedia, then they
should
get an xx.wikipedia.org domain (as well as other xx.wikisomething.org
stuff).

~ESP

* I can hear it now: "Huh? There are other wiki engines? There are other
wikis?
I can set up my own? Huh?"


from_name: Timwi

references:
<cigum2$i19$1@sea.gmane.org>	<9f02ca4c04091910144fb9fc68@mail.gmail.com>	<cil3do$mpb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c04092005563f022703@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:

> I know the current version doesn't do anything, but I've been meaning
> for a while to finalise a patch to show a message saying "This is a
> redirect to [[foo]]".

This has already been done in 1.4.

>>* Things like __NOTOC__ and stuff can be handled like this:
>>   * Regard *everything* of the form __CAPITALLETTERS__ as a special
>>     token
>
> Actually, it can be lower case currently. Unless we're going to hunt
> the database for examples where it is, best just treat
> __anystringofletters__ as needing to be investigated.

Indeed. I didn't know that. But it isn't a problem at all. Even with it
being case-insensitive, I don't think it's asking too much of the users
to put <nowiki> around anything that looks like these, since they are
rarely enough intended to be actual text. I would highly doubt that any
significant amount of articles is currently relying on them being text.

>>* The template pseudo-variables (e.g. CURRENTMONTH) are similarly
>>   handled in post-processing.
>
> By which, do you mean they are treated as templates and then
> recognised as magic after? Just curious.

Yep, that's right.

>>* HTML tags and extension names are either not internationalised, or all
>>   translations of them are made to work on all Wikipedias.
>
> That seems a bit of a step backwards to me. Actually, everything that
> looks like a SGML tag has to be treated one of three ways:
>
> a) it is an extension, and everything from there to its partner should
> be unparsed / sent somewhere else for parsing
> b) it's an allowed HTML tag, and should be put in the parse-tree as
> that kind of element, with its contents parsed "independently" (sort
> of)
> c) it is neither of the above, and needs entity escaping so that it
> doesn't get as far as the browser still looking like HTML

I am perfectly happy with this, but since the parser is a stand-alone
module, I cannot treat a particular word as case (a) on one Wikipedia
but case (c) on another.

I'm not sure why you think allowing all translations on all Wikipedias
would be a "step backwards"? Or do you seriously think someone would use
the Chinese translation of <math> on the English Wikipedia? :)

But if you still insist on this, then I have two suggestions:

* We could replace the "other-language" words with the "this-language"
   words upon save. I.e. if someone wrote <math> on the Chinese
   Wikipedia, it would automatically be changed into "<" + some Chinese
   characters + ">" before storing it in the DB.

* Alternatively, we could have the parser recognise only the canonical
   (English) words, and have the PHP software replace non-English magic
   words with the canonical (English) words before invoking the parser.
   I am uncomfortable with this solution because it resorts to the same
   kind of patchwork that is erking me about the current not-a-parser.

> Perhaps extensions could be made to return a parse sub-tree (even if
> it only has one element).  Then we could use a HTML "extension" bound
> to all allowed HTML tags, which just called the original parser back
> on the contents of the tags.

This is an interesting thought, but I think it is inefficient with
regards to performance. If the parser knows about allowed HTML tags (and
the difference between an HTML tag and an extension) beforehand, this
extra step would be saved. Additionally, your idea works only for tags
that are independent of other tags; it would not work well with tables.

Timwi


body:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:41:55 +0100, Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Although you should check your final result against the current revision
> > on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes)
>
> We do not own the domain name WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will.

A good point.  Although WMF.net is only being squatted...

Saluting your continued crusade against abbreviation,
  +sj+


from_name: PR Wikipedie

body:
> The version that should be translated is at
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation
> wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta.
> I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this.

There is a little problem that I do not have an account on
wikimediafoundation.org (and I am not allowed to make one, obviously),
so that I cannot even copy the source. But AFAICS the page is very
similar (on the first sight identical, except the bar) to
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En:, which
is the version I have used as the base for my translation
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs:).

So the question is: what should I do with the translation (place to
cs:, ask for an account on wikimediafoundation.org, submit to a
commitee ;-) ...whatever) ?

Petr Kadlec / Mormegil


from_name: zero 0000

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins....apparently
	contray to Blocking policy

body:
"Harry Smith" (aka OneVoice, Lance6Wins, Abu Ala) wrote:
> On the Refusal to serve in the Israeli military page,
> Lance6Wins added the following:
>
> Two Israeli journalists, Amos Harel of [[Haaretz]] and
> a person from the Israel Broadcasting Agency, have
> written a book in Hebrew entitled (in translation)
> "The Seventh War".  The book is based upon extensive
> interview with [[Hamas]] leaders and others.  In the
> book the authors state that
>
> : It was the Israeli left
> :  ...
> : [http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=68735]

This person has been before the Arbitration Committee
for almost two months.

Meanwhile, I have the right (some would say duty as
a sysop) to continue to protect Wikipedia from
vandalism.  In the present case, note the dishonest claim
that the material is from a book when it is actually from a
TV interview.  (It might turn out to be in the book too, but
nobody here has actually seen the book.)  Moreover, the
report on the TV interview is from the extreme-right pirate
radio station Arutz Sheva which is notorious for its lack
of journalistic standards.  Lance6Wins is entirely aware
of all this and it was not necessary to explain it all again
for the umpteenth time.  We are not discussing a newbie
here, but an experienced fanatical POV pusher.

I believe that my action in blocking him for 48 hours,
after issuing a warning, was justified.
Some will agree with me and some will disagree; I know
that but when the chips are down I have to take the
course of action which is in the interests of Wikipedia
as best as I can judge it.

--Zero.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Domas Mituzas

subject: [Wikitech-l] En-GB/en-US syntax

body:
Hey,

Do you imagine how all that en-gb/en-us stuff appears from international point of view?
Somewhere I saw that Wikipedia should not be stressed as British-English or American-English only website, if you're really trying to do something useful, at least for international community, then improve the content, not language pecularities.

> If people are willing to spend some time using this syntax to specify
> both spellings, why not let them? It might seem like a little thing to
> many if not most people, but it would certainly give Wikipedia's content
> a more professional and consistent overall appearance.

Cheers,
Domas


from_name: Jerome Jamnicky

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Zonealarm

body:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:08, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Walter van Kalken wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I know this might not be the right place to ask, but
> > since wikipedia is the only site giving problems I'll
> > start here.
> >
> > I have recently gotten internet in my home. As opposed
> > to working in an internetcafe and installed zonealarm.
> > I checked the tabs so wikipedia was allowed for
> > cookies,' "adds" and everything. Somehow I hot an ip
> > address (number) not a www.wikipedia.org or for me
> > nl.wikipedia.org.
> >
> > Everything worked fine. No problems could see the
> > pictures and everything.
> >
> > Now I was forced to reinstall. But this time for some
> > reason I have no IP number showing up, just the name.
> > So I gave it the same settings as the IP number
> > before. But I have constant problems, no pictures and
> > forced logouts. The only way everything works is if I
> > switch off zonealarm which is not exactly the idea off
> > a firewall?
> >
> > Anybody got any clues or got the IP number so I can
> > add that?
> >
> > Walter (user:waerth nl,en,de etc etc etc)
>
> Hello Walter,
>
> $ dig +short www.wikipedia.org
> 207.142.131.247
> 207.142.131.248
> 207.142.131.235
> 207.142.131.236
> 207.142.131.245
> 207.142.131.246
> $
>
> btw, it could change without any notice.
>
> cheers,

In fact it has already changed - I added another 5 IP addresses about 24 hours
ago, to allow for the new, 4th squid cache:

--($:~)-- dig +short nl.wikipedia.org
207.142.131.202
207.142.131.203
207.142.131.204
207.142.131.205
207.142.131.206
207.142.131.235
207.142.131.236
207.142.131.245
207.142.131.246
207.142.131.247
207.142.131.248

Same goes for www.wikipedia.org, en.wikipedia.org, etc


body:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Although you should check your final result against the current revision
> on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes)

I would like to request that everyone stops using the abbreviation WMF
to refer to the Wikimedia Foundation. We do not own the domain name
WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will. If people make the effort
not to use it, it will reduce confusion and misdirected traffic.

Although I quote Sj above, this is in no way directed only at him.
It's bad enough that we don't own wikimedia.com that I think efforts
should be made to prevent even more links to sites that are not really
us.

Thanks.

Angela


from_name: Petr Kadlec

body:
OK, I have updated the translation accordingly (unfortunately, wmf.org
is not ours, is it ;-) ).

Thanks for the help.
Petr Kadlec / Mormegil


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Min-nan pages import (was Re: starting a new wiki)

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Sep 20, 2004, at 9:09 AM, T?n PekTiong wrote:
<snip>
>> The dump is still out there
>> http://tmjiang.dyndns.org/wikipedia/wikipedia-backup.sql

I wgeted dump in /home/wikipedia/ in case the dyndns site come down :o)

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Well,

one main problem is that Toki Pona is copyrighted, and I believe KLI
and Lojban may be too.

--node

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:03:10 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
<jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > But if you are speaking only of conlangs, then I entirely agree. the
> > Klingon wikipedia might be moved to KLI webspace, and the Toki Pona
> > wikipedia might be moved to the Toki Pona website, especially since
> > Toki Pona itself is copyrighted (Klingon may be too, I'm not sure).
> > The Lojban wikipedia is a bit questionable in my mind but it seems
> > that in the minds of others it is on a level with tokipona: and tlh:,
> > so perhaps it could be moved to the Lojban website?
>
> Well, I think we should seriously consider a process for generating
> consensus on these questions and then we should make some changes.
>
> What is really needed, but complex to generate, is a consensus policy
> to guide future decision making.  I feel that it is not necessary for
> such a consensus policy to be 100% consistent with past practice, i.e.
> we can continue to support some projects that we would not agree to
> start today.
>
> --Jimbo
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Starting a new wiki

body:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:44:39 +1000, Tim Starling
<ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > Oh, also there is the additional option of setting up shop at a
> > Wikipedia that has had little or no action. This is *not* something I
> >  would encourage! Please exhaust all other options first. Depending
> > on which language you choose though, it could take a very short time
> >  or a very long time for anybody to realise what you're doing. And if
> >  you can round up a good sized group of contributors, and you get up
> > a sizable number of articles, when you *are* eventually found out
> > there is a good chance the content will be kept, but moved to a
> > different subdomain (most likely ang:).
> >
>
> I don't mind if people squat on empty wikis, since their secrecy means
> that they won't be able to request help writing language files, or to
> ask for help in making interlanguage links. In fact, I'll happily create
> any wiki if the potential contributors agree in advance to use a
> language file which is already mature, and that you refrain from
> requesting interface customisations which require developer attention.

Not nessecarily. I think it's quite possible somebody could take
advantage of the system and request help writing language files; do
they have to actually tell the developer that it's not for the right
language? For some languages ie bo:, I can see that the fact it wasn't
written in the right script would be a dead giveaway, but if somebody
used some sort of conlang phonotactically similar to Tahitian on ty:,
I can't imagine anybody could easily pick up on it.

Anyhow I would be quite happy to help people with language files.
Interface customisations I'm afraid I can't help with, but I can help
people with language files if they/you want.

Also, what you said about creating any wiki where the contributors
agree to (your terms)... does that extend to *all* languages, or only
languages that have already been discussed on the ML? While I
personally do not see the existance of say got: doing much harm to
anybody, others obviously have objections to its creation. Would you
"happily create" a wikipedia for a language in this situation? What if
the original requester had asked you before the ML?

Also, I'm curious as to why there was only one serious objector to
ang:, but got: seems to have turned into a hot topic...

--node


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionenth article

body:
Erik Zachte wrote:

>To be more precise, I think it would be possible (because deleted records
>are still preserved in another database),
>but I don't think anyone is willing to dig that deep, only to find that a
>ten word stub which had been marked for deletion within minutes now has to
>be preserved for posterity :)
>
>
This sort of thing can't be known with any accuracy anyway.  It's a
matter of estimating when the millionth article will be added, and
taking the first article logged after that time is reached.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
I thought it would be created also...there was quite a bit of support when I
originally proposed the idea, and then everyone started talking about
Chinese and Gothic.  The only reason I heard against it is that someone
didn't feel like it.  But, what about all the wikis with less than 10
articles?  Looks like they don't feel like it either.

I looked, and the Afar, Armenian, Assamese, Aymara, Bashkir, Bengali,
Bhojpuri, Bislama, Burmese, Dzongkha, Fijian, Georgian, Greenlandic,
Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Kazakh, Khmer, Kyrgiz, Lao, Lojban, Quechua,
Manx, Nepali, Oriya, Oromo, Panjabi, Pashtu, Rumansh, Sardinian, Setswana,
Somali, Sindhi, Sotho, Tajik, Telugu, Tibetan, Tongan, Tsonga, Turkmen, Twi,
Uighur, and Xhosa have 10 or fewer articles.  Are those who thought little
of Gothic or Anglo-Saxon going to look again at those wikis?

Just a thought.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:50 PM
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

Well, you have a number of different options.

The first and probably best would be to go to Wikipedia forks such as
Wikinfo and mcfly (ok, maybe not mcfly) and tell them how the folks at
the Wikimedia organisation are... well,   describe your plight. Some
forks really hate the Wikimedia foundation and will feel very sorry
for you and assist you with such a project, whereas others seem to be
meant more to augment Wikipedia and their users still contribute to
Wikipedia on a regular basis.

Another option would be to pay for private hosting and set up the
MediaWiki software yourself, which I can tell you is not going to be
very pleasant if you're not experienced in setting up server-side
apps. You could probably also hire somebody to maintain the software
for you (often hosting companies will offer such services), but that's
just another additional cost.

The only other option I can think of at the moment is to use one of
the free wiki hosts available on the internet. Let me tell you in
advance, they all suck. Really, really suck. But obviously, they are
free so you don't have to pay anybody as you would in the second
scenario.

best,
node

ps
I thought the final decision was to go ahead and create ang:?

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:36:25 -0400, James R. Johnson
<modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> So, in the interest of the Anglo-Saxon wikipedia, how do I, personally,
set
> it up outside the wikimedia foundation, so that I can get it started?
>
> James
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Evan Prodromou
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 2:16 AM
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki
>
> Tim Starling wrote:
>
> > People underestimate the cost involved in setting up a wiki.
>
> Once again I'd like to point out that having a language-specific Wikipedia
> is
> not usually the best way to organize, promote, or develop a language.
>
> It's probably much better for a group of interested people working on a
> small or
> endangered language to set up a general-purpose wiki that encompasses the
> Wikimedia ideas of a Wikipedia, Wiktionary, a language-learning Wikibook,
> and
> perhaps a few other community- or discussion-oriented purposes.
>
> There are a _lot_ of free or low-cost PHP hosting services that can host a
> wiki.
> Mediawiki can be hard to set up on these services, since MySQL usually
costs
>
> significantly more, but there are a number of other wiki engines* that
work
> with
>   flat files and don't require a database.
>
> Anyways: I think the best strategy is to tell people who want to have a
> Wikipedia in their language to go start a wiki somewhere else. If they can
> show
> that they have a robust community that can support a Wikipedia, then they
> should
> get an xx.wikipedia.org domain (as well as other xx.wikisomething.org
> stuff).
>
> ~ESP
>
> * I can hear it now: "Huh? There are other wiki engines? There are other
> wikis?
> I can set up my own? Huh?"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Tân PekTiong

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Starting a new wiki

body:
On Sep 20, 2004, at 11:31 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Sep 19, 2004, at 11:34 PM, Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
>> The Walon Wikipedia was fortunate to have received assistance in
>> migrating its data into Wikipedia.  The Minnan Wikipedia still has
>> articles sitting out there.  But knowing the developers' time is
>> highly constrained, we have not complained nor do we see it as a
>> "right" to receive such help.
>
> If someone had *asked* we'd have been happy to help... I at least
> never heard any request to do this.

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-May/010194.html
I have *asked* if anybody can help to transfer the articles from old
holopedia to the newly created min-nan
wikipedia but it seems that developers are too busy.

> At this point it would be harder to merge two separate wikis that have
> undergone separate development, but we can probably arrange something
> if that's desired.
>

The dump is still out there
http://tmjiang.dyndns.org/wikipedia/wikipedia-backup.sql
Can we copy the old articles with history to the new min-nan wikipedia,
to avoid conflict, we can try to
add a tag to old article name to be xxxx_old or something like that.
Once the xxxx_old articles are moved
to the new min-nan wikipedia, we can do the merge or rename of the
articles.

best
pektiong


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [WikiEN-l] Millionenth article

body: Would it be possible to know which article was number one million?


subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionenth article


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionenth article

body:
> Would it be possible to know which article was number one million?

I don't think it is possible to establish this after the fact.

Let us say article x on p: was the millionth article and was added at time
t.
Parsing the databases at time t+10min another article y would seem the
millionth article because someone had deleted some articles in the meantime
on q:

And so on, every measurement would point to a different article.

Erik Zachte


subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionenth article

body:
To be more precise, I think it would be possible (because deleted records
are still preserved in another database),
but I don't think anyone is willing to dig that deep, only to find that a
ten word stub which had been marked for deletion within minutes now has to
be preserved for posterity :)

Erik Zachte


from_name: Jens Ropers

body:
On 20 Sep 2004, at 23:05, Sj wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:41:55 +0100, Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Although you should check your final result against the current
>>> revision
>>> on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes)
>>
>> We do not own the domain name WMF.org and it is not likely we ever
>> will.
>
> A good point.  Although WMF.net is only being squatted...
>
> Saluting your continued crusade against abbreviation,
>   +sj+

Speaking of acronyms and [[TLA]]s -- may I recommend: The book

LTI

(aka Lingua Tertii Imperii)
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0826457770/

-- ropers


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Clear and obvious harssment: This case has
	neverhappened before

body:
Robert,

I don't believe that Jimbo (or the Arbitration Committee) would ever
give any single Wikipedian "the authority to ban". If you find access to
Wikipedia blocked, please e-mail me privately, and I'll simply un-block
you.

(And if that results in me getting de-bureaucrated, de-sysopped, or even
banned myself -- so be it.)

Every mediation I've been involved in, has been successful. And as a
member advocate, everyone who agreed to follow my advice has managed to
avoid being banned. So if you want my help, you are welcome to it.

Ed Poor


body:
It is for the arbcom to be decided, but based on the content of this
email, it is clear to me that zero should be desysopped.

zero 0000 wrote:

> "Harry Smith" (aka OneVoice, Lance6Wins, Abu Ala) wrote:
> > On the Refusal to serve in the Israeli military page,
> > Lance6Wins added the following:
> >
> > Two Israeli journalists, Amos Harel of [[Haaretz]] and
> > a person from the Israel Broadcasting Agency, have
> > written a book in Hebrew entitled (in translation)
> > "The Seventh War".  The book is based upon extensive
> > interview with [[Hamas]] leaders and others.  In the
> > book the authors state that
> >
> > : It was the Israeli left
> > :  ...
> > : [http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=68735]
>
> This person has been before the Arbitration Committee
> for almost two months.
>
> Meanwhile, I have the right (some would say duty as
> a sysop) to continue to protect Wikipedia from
> vandalism.  In the present case, note the dishonest claim
> that the material is from a book when it is actually from a
> TV interview.  (It might turn out to be in the book too, but
> nobody here has actually seen the book.)  Moreover, the
> report on the TV interview is from the extreme-right pirate
> radio station Arutz Sheva which is notorious for its lack
> of journalistic standards.  Lance6Wins is entirely aware
> of all this and it was not necessary to explain it all again
> for the umpteenth time.  We are not discussing a newbie
> here, but an experienced fanatical POV pusher.
>
> I believe that my action in blocking him for 48 hours,
> after issuing a warning, was justified.
> Some will agree with me and some will disagree; I know
> that but when the chips are down I have to take the
> course of action which is in the interests of Wikipedia
> as best as I can judge it.
>
> --Zero.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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>

--
"La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


from_name: Harry Smith

body:
Thank you for your support in this matter.

I have asked the ArbCom to examine they matter and
take appropriate action.

Lance6Wins.

--- The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:

> On 9/21/04 8:17 AM, "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales"
> <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> > It is for the arbcom to be decided, but based on
> the content of this
> > email, it is clear to me that zero should be
> desysopped.
> >
> That's my opinion, as well.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Shaun MacPherson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Referencing Tabs / Fact and Reference Check Project

body:
Hello!  There has been talk recently about reference
tabs and cross referencing, esp with the new
WikiProject to do fact checking here [
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check
].

I think a lot of people are converging on the idea of
having some sort of tab system to enclose discrete
facts with the quoted fact being placed at the end of
the article.

I'd guess the tabs could be any mark that hasn't been
designated elsewhere ([[, {{) ?  Some proposed tabs
are  <<, ?? , they are currently being used as ad hoc
comment tabs in this
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check/Example_2/
] example <!--(1) --> Fact <!--(1) end--> to see how a
tab system might work.

Would it be hard to program into Wikimedia a <<tab>>
system that would autogenerate the quotation?  Other
features that could also be added in would be:

-The ability to add/hide super scripts after each fact
that would direct you to the list of references below.
-The ability to hide the actual tabs themselves but
have them follow the text around if it is moved or
changed.

The second point is important since a tab system could
clutter up the text when editing the article.  I'd
assume that would be hard to incorporate :).  Perhaps
a second 'Edit this page' button but it includes the
<<tabs>>?

Thank you for your time, esp. to the techs who are
voulinteering to program Wikimedia.

ShaunMacPherson

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca


subject: [WikiEN-l] A future for Nupedia?

body:
Why not referee the articles ourselves?  There is a [
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check
] Fact and reference check project up to cross
reference article facts.

The corner stone of the project is a tab system to
enclose facts and autogenerates the qutation below.
Then people can cross reference the quoted fact with
multiple sources, there is an example here [
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check/Example_2/&action=edit
] that is using ad hoc comment tabs (and doesnt auto
generate).

All that needs to be done is to incorporate a tab
sytem, perhaps ?? or >>, and have it autogenerate the
quote.  There are other features that could be added
(super scripts, hiding the references, hiding the
actual tabs when editing the article) but those can be
programmed in later I guess.

Good day,

Shaun MacPherson

 --- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> On 09/10/04 07:42, Charles Matthews wrote:
>
> > A) There is an argument that _someone else_ can do
> this - take selected WP
> > articles, get them refereed, post them on a web
> site.  WP lays the golden
> > eggs.
>
>
> Yes. It's something for someone else to do
> somewhere.
>
> I had a job interview recently where I was asked
> about Wikipedia - it's
> mentioned at the end of my CV under 'interests'. So
> I had to give a one-liner
> on Wikipedia - "a web page that anyone can edit,
> with version control ...
> amazed it works as well as it does ... not up to
> life or death, but up to
> pub quiz level [thanks to Jimbo for that one, at the
> recent UK talks!] ...
> technical articles are usually very good ..." I
> think I might have recruited
> one of the interviewers ;-) I did add: "A review
> process is being put
> together."
>
>
> > C) What happens to 'be bold' if people's
> qualifications to edit are an
> > issue?
>
>
> This is why we have to come up with a sane review
> process that lets the
> wiki do the work.
>
>
> > D) You are not going to get top academics
> interested.
>
>
> Not with what we have now. And think of the
> reactions of, e.g., many of
> wikien-l to academics such as user:172, who does
> just happen to be very
> knowledgeable and good at what he does as well as
> unimpeachably qualified.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

______________________________________________________________________
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from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Hi,

Le Tuesday 21 September 2004 05:38, James R. Johnson a ?crit :
>
> I looked, and the Afar, Armenian, Assamese, Aymara, Bashkir, Bengali,
> Bhojpuri, Bislama, Burmese, Dzongkha, Fijian, Georgian, Greenlandic,
> Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Kazakh, Khmer, Kyrgiz, Lao, Lojban, Quechua,
> Manx, Nepali, Oriya, Oromo, Panjabi, Pashtu, Rumansh, Sardinian, Setswana,
> Somali, Sindhi, Sotho, Tajik, Telugu, Tibetan, Tongan, Tsonga, Turkmen,
> Twi, Uighur, and Xhosa have 10 or fewer articles.  Are those who thought
> little of Gothic or Anglo-Saxon going to look again at those wikis?

It's surprising that Bengali Wikipedia didn't start yet. There are probably
more than 200 millions people speaking Bengali, although I don't how many
among these have Bengali as their monther tongue (190M according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language, 207M according to other
sources). And Bengali people have also a strong reputation for cultural
awareness, and the Bengali language has a long tradition of poetry and
literature.

Each of Assamese, Burmese, Gujarati, Kannada, Khmer, Nepalese, Oriya, Panjabi,
Pashtu, Sindhi, and Telugu have more than 10 millions speakers. However most
of these speakers have a poor Internet connectivity at the best. So it just a
matter of time when Internet connections become easily available in these
parts of the world.

> Just a thought.
>
> James

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On 9/21/04 8:17 AM, "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> It is for the arbcom to be decided, but based on the content of this
> email, it is clear to me that zero should be desysopped.
>
That's my opinion, as well.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>Hi,
>
>
>It's surprising that Bengali Wikipedia didn't start yet. There are probably
>more than 200 millions people speaking Bengali, although I don't how many
>among these have Bengali as their monther tongue (190M according to
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language, 207M according to other
>sources). And Bengali people have also a strong reputation for cultural
>awareness, and the Bengali language has a long tradition of poetry and
>literature.
>
The Nobel Prize (1913) winner Tagore wrote in Bengali, though probably
mostly for those works that were available in English at the time.  I
understand that there far more of his works that have never been
translated.  Tagore died in 1941, so his works are essentially all in
the public domain based on the life plus 60 law that prevails for India.

>Each of Assamese, Burmese, Gujarati, Kannada, Khmer, Nepalese, Oriya, Panjabi,
>Pashtu, Sindhi, and Telugu have more than 10 millions speakers. However most
>of these speakers have a poor Internet connectivity at the best. So it just a
>matter of time when Internet connections become easily available in these
>parts of the world.
>
These are probably langiages that we would really like to serve.
Gujarati, Punjabi and Pashtu all have significant diasporas where there
are people that are in a better position to take the initiative.  Here
in the Vancouver area the Punjabi Sikhs are one of the largest immigrant
communities.  Maybe I should enter into promotional discussions with
some of them..

Another advantage that is available for the Asian languages is an
established written language.  This is not the case for most African or
native American languages.  It's just a matter of time before the Asians
get it together.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia

body:
Hi all,

The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
Sicilian language.

Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet connectivity.

I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.

best,
node