subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Giving Jan access

body:
After looking at Sheldon's website, it's a good thing I didn't claim to have
appeared as an expert on the radio!

Anyway, I've had a look at the my.cnf file, and the settings mostly look
fine. A couple of things...

set-variable = innodb_buffer_pool_size=384M
#set-variable = innodb_buffer_pool_size=512M

I see you've reduced this, probably because it was too high with the dual
db/web server. This can be upped to at most 80% of available memory when you
move to the dedicated server running InnoDB tables (you'd need to make sure
any MyISAM tables don't steal memory too - it's more complicated running
both table types - I haven't had a real look at the db structure yet to
say). This sets the cache size for innodb indexes etc, so upping it can help
quite a bit if this is the bottleneck.

Also:
set-variable = innodb_log_file_size=5M

This can go up to around 25% of the innodb_buffer_pool_size. Saves a bit of
disk I/O (at the cost of recovery speed after a crash)

The main speed increase I think will come from looking at individual
queries, and making sure the indexes are optimized. There was mention of one
query taking 37 seconds which should never happen!

If you have any really problematic queries, feel free to post them and I'll
see if I can take a look. I've downloaded the db from the site (hopefully
the structures etc are up to date), so I can see if there's anything I can
do to speed them up.

ian gilfillan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sheldon Rampton" <sheldon.rampton at verizon.net>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 3:36 PM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Giving Jan access

> Jimbo wrote:
>
> >Ian Gilfillan, author of Mastering MySQL 4, has also volunteered to
> >help, and if he wants access, we can give it to him too, even though I
> >don't know him.  He wrote a book, so he's legit.
>
> There's no better source of legitimacy, in my eyes.
> --
> --------------------------------
> |  Sheldon Rampton
> |  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
> |  Author of books including:
> |     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
> |     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
> |     Mad Cow USA
> |     Trust Us, We're Experts
> --------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] TMC is back with the full name

body:
On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, tarquin wrote:
> only edited thevarious user pages connected with his career so far:
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User%3AThrobbingMonsterCock

New lame variant on name is banned.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Kurt Jansson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] front page of www and Trophées du Libre

body:
Hi Anthere!

> Some months ago, somebody (sorry, I don't remember who) raised the
> topic of "Les troph?es du Libre".

That was me :-)
Everybody who doesn't know what this is about, take a look at
http://www.tropheesdulibre.org/main.php?lang=en

> I know some consider it a very french matter, so to be raised only on
> the french wiki.

Why? I thought it's an international contest.

> I wondered which page would be more suited to be indicated as the
> main entrance for the whole project.

I'd choose the English one, because it looks best and, I have to admit,
you can see the best content there (remember, we want to win a contest).
And it's impossible to miss the other language Wikipedias.
Even better, give them a link to the English BrilliantProse page.

> Any candidate to take care of that please ?

Sorry, my french is really bad, and I didn't understand the English
translation the last time I visited the site, that's why I asked on this
list for someone to take care about it. Is it really that much work?

Kurt


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Hardware inventory

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> However, a read-only mirror (which wouldn't need the user database) is
> fairly easy to set up, in fact, I might run one myself eventually if

Has this ever been tried?  Are there any examples to learn from?
If you do this, how would you present it?  As "Wikipedia" (out of
date and with no edit link?) or as "Erik's copy of Wikipedia"?
Or would there be an edit link that goes to the real Wikipedia?
Most users know what an FTP mirror is, but will they understand a
wiki mirror?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: front page of www and Trophées du Libre

body:
On Friday 07 February 2003 04:58 pm, Anthere wrote:
> >But we could move it to en.wikipedia.org and rotate the address
> >www.wikipedia.org weekly among all the wikipedias so it points one week to
> >the Main Page of the French, next week to the Spanish, then to the English
> >and so on until PhaseIV is ready.
>
> I actually like this idea!
>
>
> Yeah me too :-)

If you like this idea then why not support, as an interim solution, the
browser language sniffing idea whereby the language set in a person's browser
will redirect them to an active WIkipedia language (and if the language set
in the person's browser doesn't exist in wiki or isn't active with more than
100 articles then it is directed to en.eiki)?

Rotating the Main Page for everybody would confuse the hell out of users while
there is some logic to the sniffing idea - at least as an interim solution.

But I will again state for the record that I think it would be a big mistake
to just put-up a static link page at www.wikipedia.org whose only job is to
direct people to different languages. Wikipedia is alive and our most visible
page should indicate this by having useful project-wide features and logins.

So I for one say we should wait until Phase IV before we change our most
visited page (but IMO we can move en.wiki now so long as we provide browser
language sniffing). We could and IMO should, also have our first project-wide
press release posted at the time of the change in order to announce that we
are, at last, a fully functional multilanguage project.

But if we implement the language-sniffing idea then all the most active wikis
(I think there are 12 now) will be able to use wikipedia.org for promotional
purposes. We may even like the idea and build upon it (as the 'multilanguage
header frame proposal' by Neil in meta suggests).

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_to_do_with_www.wikipedia.org

--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma:
I added many events to [[February 2]], updated all the year pages and many of
the articles linked from that page.


from_name: James Z

subject: [Wikipedia-l] dual licence?

body:
wikipedia can suck my big fat wang penis.

---
my site - www.jzcool.net

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:32:34
 Tom Parmenter wrote:
>
>It isn't unreasonable to think, that with no institutional effort on
>our part, the FDL and the Creative Commons, and public domain will
>flow together.  Individual contributors may pursue it (and perhaps
>reunite with Isis) but for most of us, these discussions are
>academic.  We claim no copyright, don't want any, wouldn't accept it,
>and are occasionally bemused by trying to figure out how we ended up
>with one after so much effort not to have one.
>
>I have never been involved in a discussion of the GFDL in Wikipedia
>that didn't feel like a troll to me.  See [[Talk:Oregon City, Oregon]]
>and [[Talk:Hitler has only got one ball]].
>
>Tom Parmenter
>Ortolan88
>
>|From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller)
>|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
>|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>|Date: 08 Feb 2003 01:48:00 +0100
>|
>|> Your GFDL contributions will fall into the public domain 70 years after
>|> your death anyway. Why wait? Why not release them right now? I found
>|> the idea quite liberating, actually.
>|
>|The FDL idea is, of course, more anti-copyright than the public domain
>|idea, because it is intended to convince others to release their content
>|openly. It turns copyright against itself - the only freedom it takes away
>|is the freedom to exert control over content. The FDL has various problems
>|(GNU is primarily about software, and hasn't really spent much work on
>|developing decent general open content licenses), and other licenses
>|aren't established enough.
>|
>|The copyleft concept only works well with a standardized license. Neither
>|GNU nor Creative Commons will give that to us. I do believe that
>|Wikipedia's use of the FDL will give it a big boost, and that we can
>|increasingly use that as an argument that the FDL *is* the standard share-
>|alike license. Isn't that amazing - we're already so big that we can argue
>|that something we do is right because we do it. Almost like Microsoft ;-)
>|
>|Regards,
>|
>|Erik
>|_______________________________________________
>|Wikipedia-l mailing list
>|Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>|
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

_____________________________________________________________
Get 25MB, POP3, Spam Filtering with LYCOS MAIL PLUS for $19.95/year.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus


from_name: Tom Parmenter

subject: [Wikipedia-l] dual licence?

body:
It isn't unreasonable to think, that with no institutional effort on
our part, the FDL and the Creative Commons, and public domain will
flow together.  Individual contributors may pursue it (and perhaps
reunite with Isis) but for most of us, these discussions are
academic.  We claim no copyright, don't want any, wouldn't accept it,
and are occasionally bemused by trying to figure out how we ended up
with one after so much effort not to have one.

I have never been involved in a discussion of the GFDL in Wikipedia
that didn't feel like a troll to me.  See [[Talk:Oregon City, Oregon]]
and [[Talk:Hitler has only got one ball]].

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88

|From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller)
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: 08 Feb 2003 01:48:00 +0100
|
|> Your GFDL contributions will fall into the public domain 70 years after
|> your death anyway. Why wait? Why not release them right now? I found
|> the idea quite liberating, actually.
|
|The FDL idea is, of course, more anti-copyright than the public domain
|idea, because it is intended to convince others to release their content
|openly. It turns copyright against itself - the only freedom it takes away
|is the freedom to exert control over content. The FDL has various problems
|(GNU is primarily about software, and hasn't really spent much work on
|developing decent general open content licenses), and other licenses
|aren't established enough.
|
|The copyleft concept only works well with a standardized license. Neither
|GNU nor Creative Commons will give that to us. I do believe that
|Wikipedia's use of the FDL will give it a big boost, and that we can
|increasingly use that as an argument that the FDL *is* the standard share-
|alike license. Isn't that amazing - we're already so big that we can argue
|that something we do is right because we do it. Almost like Microsoft ;-)
|
|Regards,
|
|Erik
|_______________________________________________
|Wikipedia-l mailing list
|Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
|


from_name: Pieter Suurmond

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikipedia on CD: searching?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Axel Boldt wrote:
> > I know that I asked this question before, but I don't remember whether
> > we found a satisfying answer. How should the searching be handled once
> > we distribute a static HTML tree on CD? Is there anything better than a
> > javascript hack? Distribute a personal web server along with the files?
>
> Several thoughts:
>
> * Rather than a static HTML tree (which will grow too big for a CD without
> compression sooner or later), store compressed and indexed wikitext, and
> distribute it with a dedicated reader, which will have a search mechanism
> built in to it. (Related to or the same as a dedicated writer... see
> discussions on meta)
>
> * A Java hack
>
> * Write a helper program to do searching, include compiled versions for
> major platforms. (But how to integrate with browser?)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Sounds great!!
Maybe use DVD or a set of several CD-roms...
Instead of a 'Java hack' maybe also possible to write
a 'decent program' in C++ with help of FLTK or wxWindows libraries or ...

Or, for unix-users, also distribute a mini-webserver (I am writing
mini-WikipediaSoftware in pure C right at this moment..), the edit-button
will immediately link to the online wikipedia.... (?...)
Hmmm,... Lars Aronsson is asking good questions on how to present these
'wiki-mirrors'...

Technical question: I'm considering 'stealing' some wikipedia-source
(to mirror it on my own server) by generating queries like
"http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Chemistry&action=edit"
then read what your server sent me, reading only the wiki-source between
"<textarea tabindex=1 name='wpTextbox1' rows=25 cols=80 wrap=virtual>"
and "</textarea>".
If I would do this too massively, I would probably disturb your server (isn't it?)
so is there maybe a simpler way to retrieve wikisources?
(I don't need the html around it)

Thanks (also thanks to Jimmy Wales for informing me about 'the foundation'),
Pieter Suurmond

	If CD-ROM becomes outdated one maybe can use it as a shaving-mirror
	instead of a Wikipedia-mirror :-)


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 11:14:03AM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Axel Boldt wrote:
> > I know that I asked this question before, but I don't remember whether
> > we found a satisfying answer. How should the searching be handled once
> > we distribute a static HTML tree on CD? Is there anything better than a
> > javascript hack? Distribute a personal web server along with the files?
>
> Several thoughts:
>
> * Rather than a static HTML tree (which will grow too big for a CD without
> compression sooner or later), store compressed and indexed wikitext, and
> distribute it with a dedicated reader, which will have a search mechanism
> built in to it. (Related to or the same as a dedicated writer... see
> discussions on meta)
>
> * A Java hack
>
> * Write a helper program to do searching, include compiled versions for
> major platforms. (But how to integrate with browser?)

Distributing any code to be run on client machine is really bad idea.
A bit of Javascript to do searching in some index is about as much
as can be reasonably done. Distributing renderer is really really bad idea.


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Pieter Suurmond wrote:

>Instead of a 'Java hack' maybe also possible to write
>a 'decent program' in C++ with help of FLTK or wxWindows libraries or ...
>
I know wxWindows, and it seems very suited for this. The same source,
with minor modifications if any, will compile on Windows, *nix, Mac, and
more IIRC.

>Technical question: I'm considering 'stealing' some wikipedia-source
>(to mirror it on my own server) by generating queries like
>"http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Chemistry&action=edit"
>then read what your server sent me, reading only the wiki-source between
>"<textarea tabindex=1 name='wpTextbox1' rows=25 cols=80 wrap=virtual>"
>and "</textarea>".
>
That's what I do in my first "Sifter" version :-)

Did you consider downloading the database dump? Link is on the Main Page...

Magnus


subject: [Wikitech-l] LALR?

body:
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 12:22:06PM -0800, Jason Richey wrote:
> I haven't heard anything new about getting a more powerful parser
> together.  Have I missed anything?

I don't think that syntax of Wikipedia is LALRable.
We use about 18 passes now. We could reduce that,
but I doubt we can ever do it in just 1 or 2 passes
and stay compatible with what we have now.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: 'database dump'?

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> Did you consider downloading the database dump? Link is on the Main Page...
>
> Magnus

Sorry but I cannot find any 'database dump' on http://www.wikipedia.org/
or on meta.
Pieter


from_name: julien tayon

subject: [Wikipedia-l] racialisme

body:
Le Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:24:28 -0800,
inspir? Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> ?crivait la plume alerte :
> Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>

I think we can (and should) say that the theory that "Shoah never
existed" is held only by a very tiny minority of people, and that no
notable historian takes such claims seriously.

We absolutely should _not_ act as if holocaust revisionism and
standard history are equally valid.  To do so would itself be a
perversion of NPOV.

Thanks for the precision.

jul


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: 'database dump'?

body:
Pieter Suurmond wrote:

>Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>
>>Did you consider downloading the database dump? Link is on the Main Page...
>>
>>Magnus
>>
>>
>
>Sorry but I cannot find any 'database dump' on http://www.wikipedia.org/
>or on meta.
>
>
Try "Database download" on www.wikipedia.org, which leads to

    http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ADatabase_download

The direct link to the "cur" table dump is

    http://www.wikipedia.org/tarballs/cur_table.sql.bz2

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Racialisme

body:
Le Sun, 02 Feb 2003 14:53:23 -0800,
inspir? Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> ?crivait la plume alerte :
> julien tayon wrote:
>
> >Le Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:22:43 -0800,
> >inspir? Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> ?crivait la plume alerte
> >:
[...]
> Not at all, and there are differences between races, at least at the
> DNA level, but the racial markers in a DNA analysis tend to be weaker
> than those which distinguish two individuals of the same race.  It
> comes down to how important those differences are.
eh eh I dont want to argue here :)

>
> Le petit Robert gives the following for racism "Th?orie de la
> hi?rarchie des races, qui conclut ? la n?cessit? de pr?server la race
> dite sup?rieure de tout croisement, et ? le droit de dominer les
> autres."
>  This is very different from simply saying that races exist

fair enough, I do agree.

> [...]
> Reverse discrimination is an unfortunate by-product of affirmative
> action.  Without a belief that races exist there would be no
> affirmative action programmes either.

too complex for me, but I agree with the picture too.

I took a few days off. I thank everybody for their answers. I feel eased
by your attitude and will go back on the redaction of articles where any
further discussion will take place :)

Friendly yours,

--
jul
Operators mount anything!


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: 'database dump'?

body:
Aha, thanks very much Magnus and Brion, great!!!
(Even a search on 'database dump' did not yield these URL's.)

Really great, I now also see some tarballs
(I know tarballs, I'm still a bit unfamiliar with the sql-format
but now I can study it / learn more about it...)

Thanks for pointing out,  :-)
Pieter

Magnus Manske wrote:
>
> Pieter Suurmond wrote:
>
> >Magnus Manske wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Did you consider downloading the database dump? Link is on the Main Page...
> >>
> >>Magnus
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Sorry but I cannot find any 'database dump' on http://www.wikipedia.org/
> >or on meta.
> >
> >
> Try "Database download" on www.wikipedia.org, which leads to
>
>     http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ADatabase_download
>
> The direct link to the "cur" table dump is
>
>     http://www.wikipedia.org/tarballs/cur_table.sql.bz2
>
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


body:
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:22:01PM -0800, Jason Richey wrote:
> Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
>
> > Distributing any code to be run on client machine is really bad
> > idea.
>
> If you're going to say that someone's idea is "really bad", you should
> give a "really good" reason why this is so...
>
> I can see that some difficulties might arise from creating programs to
> run client-side, but I can also see that such a thing would be
> somewhat useful to many users.
>
> I am also of the opinion that everyone who would work on such a
> project would be doing so on a volunteer basis with an interest
> towards building the wikipedia community stronger.  I don't see the
> harm in that.  I would expect you of all people to recognize that it
> is somewhat frustrating when someone tells you that your idea sucks.
>
> > A bit of Javascript to do searching in some index is about as much
> > as can be reasonably done. Distributing renderer is really really bad idea.
>
> Likewise, I was expecting to see a "really really good" reason here...

Because:
* it's not safe for user
* there's no chance it will run on every machine people would want
    to see wikipedia on.

Is this good enough ?


body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

>On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:22:01PM -0800, Jason Richey wrote:
>
>
>>Likewise, I was expecting to see a "really really good" reason here...
>>
>>
>
>Because:
>* it's not safe for user
>
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean with that...

>* there's no chance it will run on every machine people would want
>    to see wikipedia on.
>
Right. But a thing like wxWindows will run on most of them, and there's
no reason not to distribute a HTML/JavaScript version as well for those few.

>Is this good enough ?
>
Not IMHO. "Real" programs can have many advantages over JavaScript
hacks, for example the "updater" Brion mentioned.

Magnus


body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:22:01PM -0800, Jason Richey wrote:
> > Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> >
> > > Distributing any code to be run on client machine is really bad
> > > idea.
> >
> > If you're going to say that someone's idea is "really bad", you should
> > give a "really good" reason why this is so...
> >
> > I can see that some difficulties might arise from creating programs to
> > run client-side, but I can also see that such a thing would be
> > somewhat useful to many users.
> >
> > I am also of the opinion that everyone who would work on such a
> > project would be doing so on a volunteer basis with an interest
> > towards building the wikipedia community stronger.  I don't see the
> > harm in that.  I would expect you of all people to recognize that it
> > is somewhat frustrating when someone tells you that your idea sucks.
> >
> > > A bit of Javascript to do searching in some index is about as much
> > > as can be reasonably done. Distributing renderer is really really bad idea.
> >
> > Likewise, I was expecting to see a "really really good" reason here...
>
> Because:
> * it's not safe for user
> * there's no chance it will run on every machine people would want
>     to see wikipedia on.
>
> Is this good enough ?

Sorry, I'm afraid not.
If wiki-syntax and -semantics are clear, it must be possible to render it
on ANY machine. Why not?? (this is what OPEN SOURCE is about)

The only thing that matters is the wikisource (which I can now download,
which is really great!!), I 'll find my own alternative way(s) to render it :-).
Am I not free?
One could use JavaScript, Java, C++ in combination with wxWindows,
or whatever... Let us develop as may different viewers and renderers for
all different machines, operating-systems, etc... But first (I'm afraid)
Wikisyntax needs to be finished/completed (a matter of specification, not
of implementation).

Sorry, in my opinion "Distributing renderer" is a really really very good
idea (it enables me to read articles at times that the wikipedia-server is
very slow or down).

Pieter


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #123 - 15 msgs

body:
Fine.  Goodbye.  I'm obviously not wanted here.
Zoe

 Jesse Alter <jesse at snacksoft.com> wrote:Apparently, the issue with Lir is a bit deeper than I thought, and I do
side with some of the people offended by her--some of the comments were
sharp and a bit 'unladylike' (for the record, I think men and women
should both behave 'ladylike' in polite company). But one of the things
that really got me was where Zoe said she would leave if Lir was
unbanned and 'continued his usual obnoxiousness'. That's not cool. Now
you're adding some more emotion to the admin's decisions. Now they must
worry if it is worthwhile to add Lir if they'd be losing you, and that's
really unfair. The decision should be made based on whether the admins
feel it would help Wikipedia, overall.

/

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
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http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: tarquin

body:
only edited thevarious user pages connected with his career so far:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User%3AThrobbingMonsterCock


from_name: Youandme

body:
On 7 Feb 2003 at 14:49, Axel Boldt wrote:

> Since we probably don't want to write a whole renderer though, maybe we
> should start with Mozilla as display engine. Does Mozilla allows search
> plugins that are more intelligent then just handing the request off to
> some website?

What about starting with Amaya?  http://www.w3.org/Amaya/

Disclaimer: I'm not a member of W3C community neither of Amaya
Development team, and this is not an ad.

I've downloaded yesterday fresh (Feb 03) version 7.2
and the stupid smile on my face is getting bigger and bigger with every minute :)

Of course using Amaya won't be a solution for searching problem but Amaya:
* supports MathML rendering (so one only needs to transform
our TeX <math> syntax into MathML and Amaya will do the rest)
* supports SVG (anybody still thinking about future support of SVG in WP?)
* is a browser/editor - you have to click only one icon to change the mode
(so if one smartly design the rest, ie. handling "source code" of articles,
like transforming it to XHTML and back, then every person could edit
the page even without knowing wikisyntax or Wikipedia software,
Amaya is WYSIWYG)
* support for annotations which can be held in local file on posted
to a server (just imagine Wikipedia as a server for such annotations!
If one browse off-line and see an error then he/she adds an annotation
and saves it locally and when he/she has the access to the Net posts
to the Wikipedia and Wikipedians correct)

Disadvantages, that I've found out after one day of playing with Amaya:
no elaborated HTML, no scripts and a bit harsh interface
but Amaya is free and open source project.

User:Youandme


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Navigation and search tools

body:
That's what the "Go" button is for.
Why am I still here?
Zoe
 "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar> wrote:I suggest include the box :

Go to article

For example, if you know "SVG" article exists, the server will transfer you to www.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVG, only writting SVG in the box and clicking the button.

If you go to search you recieve a lot of articles with SVG and it?s less direct solution.

About search if I try to search "svg" ( no capital letters ) the server is going to answer : no articles. And there is an article about "SVG" ( capital letters ).

How solve this problem ??.

Regards.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Woman]]

body:
Someone named Annetit, with the cooperation of someone named AgainstCensure, has decided it necessary to make misogynistic comments in the http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman article, despite several attempts at reversion.

Zoe

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body:
On 8 Feb 2003 at 0:26, Youandme wrote:

> * is a browser/editor - you have to click only one icon to change the mode
> (so if one smartly design the rest, ie. handling "source code" of articles,
> like transforming it to XHTML and back, then every person could edit
> the page even without knowing wikisyntax or Wikipedia software,
> Amaya is WYSIWYG)

Oh... one more thing: I've started playing with Amaya through
editing the documentation of... Amaya - it contains some typos
and formatting errors, does it ring a bell? :)

User:Youandme


subject: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
There is a very persisant vandal afoot that is jumping accounts and reverting
articles to older versions at an alarming rate. I can barely keep up by using
the rollback feature.

PLEASE somebody with godlike developer powers block this fuck. I've been at
this full time for over an hour -- There are many other things I would rather
be doing on Wikipedia.

A very frustrated mav

I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
ridiculous!

This VANDAL started with user:Annetit and has already created about a dozen
other accounts just to stay a step ahead of me rollbacking his edits (since
for each new user name on RC I have to review the edits before determining
they are vandalism or not -- which is damn difficult because the VANDAL is
often reverting to slightly older versions!)


subject: [Wikitech-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] dual licence?

body:
> Your GFDL contributions will fall into the public domain 70 years after
> your death anyway. Why wait? Why not release them right now? I found
> the idea quite liberating, actually.

The FDL idea is, of course, more anti-copyright than the public domain
idea, because it is intended to convince others to release their content
openly. It turns copyright against itself - the only freedom it takes away
is the freedom to exert control over content. The FDL has various problems
(GNU is primarily about software, and hasn't really spent much work on
developing decent general open content licenses), and other licenses
aren't established enough.

The copyleft concept only works well with a standardized license. Neither
GNU nor Creative Commons will give that to us. I do believe that
Wikipedia's use of the FDL will give it a big boost, and that we can
increasingly use that as an argument that the FDL *is* the standard share-
alike license. Isn't that amazing - we're already so big that we can argue
that something we do is right because we do it. Almost like Microsoft ;-)

Regards,

Erik


body:
> I know that I asked this question before, but I don't remember whether
> we found a satisfying answer. How should the searching be handled once
> we distribute a static HTML tree on CD? Is there anything better than a
> javascript hack? Distribute a personal web server along with the files?
> What do other projects do in this situation?

For indexing:
htdig or Berkeley DB might do the trick. (htdig indices are fairly
bloated, though, and I'm not sure about the fulltext indexing capabilities
of Berkeley.)

You could use a small cross-platform app (no Java, please) to generate the
results, or query the datastore through a CGI-enabled small webserver like
Fnord:
http://www.fbunet.de/fnord.shtml

The early Britannica used a similar solution.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: http://www.fbunet.de/fnord.shtml

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> > I know that I asked this question before, but I don't remember whether
> > we found a satisfying answer. How should the searching be handled once
> > we distribute a static HTML tree on CD? Is there anything better than a
> > javascript hack? Distribute a personal web server along with the files?
> > What do other projects do in this situation?
>
> For indexing:
> htdig or Berkeley DB might do the trick. (htdig indices are fairly
> bloated, though, and I'm not sure about the fulltext indexing capabilities
> of Berkeley.)
>
> You could use a small cross-platform app (no Java, please) to generate the
> results, or query the datastore through a CGI-enabled small webserver like
> Fnord:
> http://www.fbunet.de/fnord.shtml
>
> The early Britannica used a similar solution.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

Ah nice (I did see a lot of tiny httpd's lately but this one is new to me).
Indeed, must be possible to do it all via normal CGI-queries.

Write upon 'fnord' or grab source and add wiki-features to it... (?)
Just writing CGI seems best because that is standardised and would
enable migration to apache or some other server... there are probably many
servers out there that can do the job... I think on most Operating Systems
nowadays some kind of 'personal webserver' is already installed... ?

(I also object to Java, it's in the hands of Sun and Microsoft, it seems)

Greetings / thanks for the link,
Pieter


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] User TMC

body:
Tony Wilson wrote:
> Tokerboy: Your user page is in error. You are still banned until
> User:Jimbo Wales says otherwise, which will only happen if the mailing
> list et al support it.

Just to clarify, TMC wasn't banned, he was just forced to change his
name, and the old name was banned.  If TMC insists on using the
offensive name, then we'll have to escalate to a ban.

Does anyone have an email address for this chap?  I would like to
discuss this with him.  Better yet, he could come to the mailing list
and state his case for us all.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Woman]]

body:
Good job of defending the article.

This is actually a very instructive and well-done article history to
review.

Early on, the vandal's edits were re-edited, in an attempt to make the
article better.

Soon, "Someone else" and Zoe and Mav started reverting.  Eventually,
Mav spend 10-15 minutes reverting and re-reverting and re-reverting.
If anything, this was _too kind_ of Mav... I hate to see him wasting
his time this way.  But, it was a valiant effort to not have to
protect the page.

And finally, Mav protected the page.

Whoever 'Annetit'/'AgainstCensure' is, they are the sort of person
who, if they did not login, would be quite easily and correctly banned
immediately for vandalism.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] ips for usernames

body:
It sometimes happens that true vandals login.  I give as an example
Annetit on the [[Woman]] article.  If this person was posting from an
ip number, instead of a username, they would have been promptly and
justly banned immediately.

It would be nice if sysops could just as easily obtain and ban the ip
number for a username.

There *are* some potential political problems with this, obviously.
One of the most important "checks" against sysop "power" is that by
logging in, people are immune to banning unless we go through a whole
political process of deciding to ban them, which is always a big deal.

And that's a good thing, I think, as uncomfortable as it is sometimes.

So, ideas?

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
> ridiculous!

I just posted about this on wikipedia-l, but I can summarize here: I
agree with you.


in_reply_to: <002b01c2cf75$a8aeb3a0$0102a8c0@bidouille>; from demolli@unice.fr on Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 02:26:16PM +0100

body:
Hey, you know, we can learn from anyone, if we find it in our heart.
I would never have known "MODEMAC LIKES DUCK TO SUCK" had this fine
person not come along.

Gee, it's Saturday morning, shouldn't the drunks be sleeping it off by
now?  :-)

Eric Demolli wrote:

> Now it's Ivone.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: daniwo59 at aol.com
>   To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>   Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:05 PM
>   Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] (Oklah) SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!
>
>
>   What is going on with Oklah? Is that the same one?
>
>   Danny


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The MIT vandal

body:
The vandalism was coming from: 18.56.0.30 and soon after *.31.

That's at MIT, apparently.  Drunk college kid, I bet.

I blocked just those two, and things have been quiet for a few
minutes.  We might need to extend the ban to 18.56.0.* for a few
days if it becomes necessary.

I'm logging off now, hopefully this information will be sufficient
to allow others to mount an easy defense if it comes back.


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
He goes so fast and makes changes at random. I wonder if it is not a bot.

Fred

> From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller)
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: 08 Feb 2003 13:20:00 +0100
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!
>
>> I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
>> ridiculous!
>
> I agree. Sysops need emergency powers to ban signed in users in cases of
> obvious vandalism.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The MIT vandal

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> The vandalism was coming from: 18.56.0.30 and soon after *.31.

And additionally 18.21.0.*

Is it possible for me to temporarily block 18.21.0.* and 18.56.0.*?

He's hopping from one ip to another in those blocks.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Donations?

body:
--- "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar> wrote:
> What about include wikipedia in portals to recieve
> money to mantain the servers ???
> Yahoo, i.e., could include an encyclopedia (
> wikipedia ) in the portal.
> Regards.

Good idea, but likely Yahoo would "require" the
article on Yahoo to be dithyrambic...

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subject: [Wikitech-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
--- "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar> wrote:
> What about don?t allow a user utilize more than one
> IP ??. And create an IP control review tool ??.
>
> Only ideas, no programs.
>
> Regards.


body:
On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 12:26:28AM +0100, Youandme wrote:
> Of course using Amaya won't be a solution for searching problem but Amaya:
> * supports MathML rendering (so one only needs to transform
> our TeX <math> syntax into MathML and Amaya will do the rest)

I checked that, but what it renders look horrible.
It completely fails to do proper vertical alignment.

For example \int \int_p x looks like:
/ /
| |
| |  x
| /
/  p

With second integral sign smaller than first, and their centers at different
heights.

Another example: it doesn't place operators on the same height as fraction line.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:_[Wikipedia-l]_front_page_of_www_and_Troph�es_du_Libre

body:
--- Kurt Jansson <jansson at gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi Anthere!
>
> > Some months ago, somebody (sorry, I don't remember
> who) raised the
> > topic of "Les troph?es du Libre".
>
> That was me :-)
> Everybody who doesn't know what this is about, take
> a look at
> http://www.tropheesdulibre.org/main.php?lang=en

Hello,

I was not sure it was you or Magnus...

> > I know some consider it a very french matter, so
> to be raised only on
> > the french wiki.
>
> Why? I thought it's an international contest.

That's what I also think. But not everybody agrees...

> > I wondered which page would be more suited to be
> indicated as the
> > main entrance for the whole project.
>
> I'd choose the English one, because it looks best
> and, I have to admit,
> you can see the best content there (remember, we
> want to win a contest).

Youssefsan registered us yesterday (thanks Youssef),
and I just updated his text. Please find it below

If someone see fit changes, tell us, and Youssef or I
would make the change (IF we agree :-), the site is
not a wiki, and only us have the password...I am
kikking)

> And it's impossible to miss the other language
> Wikipedias.

Well...on the french site you can't miss them
either...

Ok, Youssef gave the link to the french site...

Since, I am hinting in the text that it's a wiki, that
any visitor can edit, I can hardly put a protected
page as an example of what a wiki page is, no ? :-))

incidently, we had a goatse visit yesterday

> Even better, give them a link to the English
> BrilliantProse page.

Ah, good point
though I wonder what should be more stressed here...I
think stress should be on software more than content
given the goal of the contest. Fact is - as I said - I
am not in the computer field, I know little about it
(and little about ftp uses - I believe most users will
likely no nothing about ftps...), given the number of
people working in computer science on the french wiki,
I could imagine they would be more suitable than me to
talk about which languages and which technologies are
used

> > Any candidate to take care of that please ?
>
> Sorry, my french is really bad, and I didn't
> understand the English
> translation the last time I visited the site, that's
> why I asked on this
> list for someone to take care about it. Is it really
> that much work?
>
> Kurt

Wikip?dia est un projet d'encyclop?die collaborative,
libre, gratuite, et multilingue. La version
francophone compte plus de 5000 articles, les ?diteurs
?tant localis?s dans divers pays, France, Belgique,
Suisse, Canada, Japon, Etats-Unis, Angleterre?
Wikip?dia favorise la collaboration entre les
diff?rents ?diteurs, la cr?ation des articles, leur
am?lioration par de multiples auteurs, et le partage
(voire la confrontation) des exp?riences, des savoirs
et des points de vue. Beaucoup de wikip?dien-e-s sont
motiv?-e-s par le fait de participer ? la r?alisation
d'une ressource libre de droits qui pourra ?tre
utilis?e ? travers le monde.
Tous nos articles sont sous licence de documentation
libre GFDL, ce qui signifie que non seulement les
articles peuvent ?tre lus gratuitement, mais aussi
r?utilis?s et redistribu?s tant qu'ils respectent les
conditions de la licence GNU.

L'encyclop?die est bas?e sur le principe Wiki, site
web dont tout visiteur peut modifier les pages ?
volont?, sans m?me qu'une identification soit
obligatoire. Le logiciel est en constante
am?lioration, de fa?on ? pouvoir fournir aux ?diteurs
et aux lecteurs les outils les plus appropri?s ? la
recherche, consultation, cr?ation, modification et
suivi des articles, ainsi qu'assurer la coh?rence et
performance de l'ensemble de l'application.
La version actuelle est la troisi?me version majeure,
mais des mises ? jour et am?liorations sont tr?s
r?guli?rement apport?es par l'?quipe des d?veloppeurs,
apr?s discussions au sein de la communaut?
wikip?dienne ?largie

__________________________________________________
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from_name: Jesse Alter

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #124 - 9 msgs

body:
I didn't say that, and I don't think anyone else on the list said that since I've been watching it, which is admittedly, not very long.

The Cunctator, I assumed there was more than one admin involved in this process. Thanks for the clarification.

Out of curiousity, if Lir was unbanned and told exactly what must be done to be a member in good standing, would it not be all too easy to ban her again if they showed a disregard for those guidelines?

<<< Message: 7
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 23:20:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l digest, Vol 1 #123 - 15 msgs
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org

--0-1343483212-1044688843=:49491
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Fine.  Goodbye.  I'm obviously not wanted here.
Zoe >>>


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] (Oklah) SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
What is going on with Oklah? Is that the same one?

Danny
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subject: [WikiEN-l] the current spate of vandalism

body:
The vandal seems to be pulling the articles out of somewhere. I suggest
disabling the  random article finder (the vandalized articles really are
random, and that could be where they are taking them from) until this is
resolved. Other than that, mav, modemac, and tannin--you are doing a great
job. Every time I try to help out, it's already been done. Good work.

Danny
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: front page of www and Troph�es du Libre

body:
--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Friday 07 February 2003 04:58 pm, Anthere wrote:
> > >But we could move it to en.wikipedia.org and
> rotate the address
> > >www.wikipedia.org weekly among all the wikipedias
> so it points one week to
> > >the Main Page of the French, next week to the
> Spanish, then to the English
> > >and so on until PhaseIV is ready.
> >
> > I actually like this idea!
> >
> >
> > Yeah me too :-)
>
> If you like this idea then why not support, as an
> interim solution, the
> browser language sniffing idea whereby the language
> set in a person's browser
> will redirect them to an active WIkipedia language
> (and if the language set
> in the person's browser doesn't exist in wiki or
> isn't active with more than
> 100 articles then it is directed to en.eiki)?

Because random redirection is fun :-)

Redirection to various wikis in turn is a whole
different case than automatic redirection without any
giving choice to the user.

> Rotating the Main Page for everybody would confuse
> the hell out of users while
> there is some logic to the sniffing idea - at least
> as an interim solution.

yes, rotation would be fun...

> But I will again state for the record that I think
> it would be a big mistake
> to just put-up a static link page at
> www.wikipedia.org whose only job is to
> direct people to different languages. Wikipedia is
> alive and our most visible
> page should indicate this by having useful
> project-wide features and logins.

I disagree with you that the ONLY goal of the portal
page should be to direct people to other places. I
sure think it is a bad idea just for it to be a
redirection place, and for this reason, I proposed
that "content" be placed on the "portal page".
This proposition didnot meet anybody's interest and
the provisionnal portal does only contain links to
others places. Which is wrong imho.

The fact some people decided the "portal" page should
only contain redirection links is not a justification
of this being the goal to reach

> So I for one say we should wait until Phase IV
> before we change our most
> visited page (but IMO we can move en.wiki now so
> long as we provide browser
> language sniffing). We could and IMO should, also
> have our first project-wide
> press release posted at the time of the change in
> order to announce that we
> are, at last, a fully functional multilanguage
> project.

I am sure you will understand that the sniffing
solution will *not* be the solution for us to present
Wikip?dia as a worldwide project. It will provide us
with a common link for promotion which is probably
good, but automatic redirection to our wiki is not
likely to show anybody the international aspect.

Which is why I strongly disagree with the sniffing
option.

On top of it, since many browsers are not
personalized, if we give the general link with
sniffing option, we will *never* be sure where the
visitor lands in the end...which is probably the
strongest reason why I oppose that solution.

> But if we implement the language-sniffing idea then
> all the most active wikis
> (I think there are 12 now) will be able to use
> wikipedia.org for promotional
> purposes. We may even like the idea and build upon
> it (as the 'multilanguage
> header frame proposal' by Neil in meta suggests).

I oppose that implementation. If it is done
nevertheless, I will try to make sure the link is used
the least as possible

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Temporally save

body:
Pedro M.V. wrote:

>I was translating a big article fron english wipedia to spanish wipedia.
>
>I stored the changes (the article was very long, I remark ) using preview.
>
>After some time writting, I tried to save the changes ( indicating " Manual translations ends here; it?s going to be continued") when appeared a DNS error.
>
>I tried to go backwards and the broswer said me " Page has been expired".
>
>So , I missed all the work.
>
>For prevent it, I suggest create a third button named " Temporally save" or similar, to store the articles created by the author, without publish them.
>
>So, later, after improving it, the author can publish it in the wikipedia.
>
I'm familiar with that problem, and it can be very annoying in every
language, especially if your edits have been long or complicated.  My
experience has been that when I get such a message, it is still there
later if I use the reload button, but it is destroyed completely if I
use the back button.  Pedro's idea is a constructive one but the buttons
are part of one's browser and not of Wikipedia.

Something similar could happen if any save or preview attempt were first
put into a person's cache, and if the save or preview were successful it
could then be deleted.

Alternatively, flowing from the idea of a read only mirror site that
keeps the data available while the main computer is down, the second
computer could also have a queue file that saves attempted changes.  In
a boilerplate statement6 it would notify the contributor that "because
of circumstances above and beyond our control.....",  and notify him
that his contributions have been saved in a temporary file.  When the
system comes back up it would integrate the edits in the queue.  As long
as the emergency prevails it would not permit users to start any new edits.

Eclecticology


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
Mirko Thiessen wrote:

>>I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
>>ridiculous!
>>
>Agreed.
>
>If we manage to find out the IP, shouldn't a vandal attack of this
>extent be reason enough to contact the provider of this idiot?
>
An in house solution would be better.  If the vandal's ISP does not have
any real people staffing it over a week-end it could be three days
before there is any response at all.  That would give him time to do a
lot more damage.  At the best of times this could leave us entangled in
the ISP's own administrative processes - and these can be highly
variable depending on such things as the ISP's attitude toward free speech.

Eclecticology


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

body:
At 11:20 PM 2/7/03 -0800, Zoe wrote:

>Fine.  Goodbye.  I'm obviously not wanted here.

Please don't let one schmuck drive you away. You are wanted here--I
just wasn't here last night to point this out.

>Zoe
>
>
>
>  Jesse Alter <jesse at snacksoft.com> wrote:
>Apparently, the issue with Lir is a bit deeper than I thought, and I do
>side with some of the people offended by her--some of the comments were
>sharp and a bit 'unladylike' (for the record, I think men and women
>should both behave 'ladylike' in polite company). But one of the things
>that really got me was where Zoe said she would leave if Lir was
>unbanned and 'continued his usual obnoxiousness'. That's not cool. Now
>you're adding some more emotion to the admin's decisions. Now they must
>worry if it is worthwhile to add Lir if they'd be losing you, and that's
>really unfair. The decision should be made based on whether the admins
>feel it would help Wikipedia, overall.
>
>/
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>Do you Yahoo!?
><http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com>Yahoo! Mail
>Plus - Powerful. Affordable.
><http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com>Sign up now

--
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vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org
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body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Hey, you know, we can learn from anyone, if we find it in our heart.
>I would never have known "MODEMAC LIKES DUCK TO SUCK" had this fine
>person not come along.
>
>Gee, it's Saturday morning, shouldn't the drunks be sleeping it off by
>now?  :-)
>
In the 21st century they have developed techniques beyond drugs and
alcohol to maintain their condition.  - "Zen and the Art of
Drunkenness". ;-)

Eclecticology


from_name: Pedro M.V.

body:
I suggest include the box :

Go to article

For example, if you know "SVG" article exists, the server will transfer you to www.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVG, only writting SVG in the box and clicking the button.

If you go to search you recieve a lot of articles with SVG and it?s less direct solution.

About search if I try to search "svg" ( no capital letters ) the server is going to answer : no articles. And there is an article about "SVG" ( capital letters ).

How solve this problem ??.

Regards.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] SVG

body:
I suggest the wikimaps be in SVG ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVG ) open W3C Standar.

The text contained in a SVG graphic can be edited, selected, indexed by search machines ( wikipedia search machine) and so on.

So very usefull for wikipedians.

Regards.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] User TMC

body:
On sab, 2003-02-08 at 04:18, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Does anyone have an email address for this chap?  I would like to
> discuss this with him.  Better yet, he could come to the mailing list
> and state his case for us all.

Previously, he posted to wikipedia-l from thromoco at yahoo.com. I don't
know if this address is still active or if he's still subscribed.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Anthere wrote:

>--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>But if we implement the language-sniffing idea then
>>all the most active wikis
>>(I think there are 12 now) will be able to use
>>wikipedia.org for promotional
>>purposes. We may even like the idea and build upon
>>it (as the 'multilanguage
>>header frame proposal' by Neil in meta suggests).
>>
>
>I oppose that implementation. If it is done
>nevertheless, I will try to make sure the link is used
>the least as possible
>
I support Anth?re on this.  Any kind of language or nation sniffing is
highly objectionable.  By presuming where I want to be in the website it
is patronizing and disrespectful.  I find it objectionable when some of
the big popular web sites do this, and I would find it objectionable
from Wikipedia even though I trust Wikipedia to not use it as a way to
flood me with advertising.

I am clearly in the camp of those who want the front page to be a simple
choose-your-language page.  The option to bookmark in a specific
language would come later.

If a user is so lame as to be overwhelmed by being asked to choose his
language, then I would be puzzled by how he ever managed to find that
page in the first place.

A choose-your-language front page is attractive becuse it enhance the
international flavour of the site, even when the choice is only between
two languages.  With some of those sites I may be later disappointed
when I find that the links to other languages are broken, but with a
dozen active languages we don't need to worry about that.

Eclecticology


subject: [WikiEN-l] User TMC

body:
I've moved the discussion (mostly third parties insulting each other's
spelling) from [[User:ThrobbingMonsterCock]] and its talk page to [[User
talk:TMC]], and deleted the above page.

I've also removed Throbbing_monster_cock.jpg (which depicts a large,
glowing male chicken towering over a city skyline). If anyone
desperately wants a copy who hasn't already saved it, ask and I'll
e-mail it to you.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] [Fwd: BUG: InnoDB ORDER BY DESC may hang in 4.0.10]

body:
Oh, lovely. Perhaps I should hold off on that upgrade just a bit...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-----Forwarded Message-----

From: Heikki Tuuri <Heikki.Tuuri at innodb.com>
To: mysql at lists.mysql.com
Subject: BUG: InnoDB ORDER BY DESC may hang in 4.0.10
Date: 07 Feb 2003 02:40:40 +0200

Hi!

A rather serious bug was introduced to 4.0.10 in connection of another bug
fix.

If you have a composite key (col1, col2) in an InnoDB table, then a query of
type

SELECT ...
FROM ...
WHERE col1 = x ORDER BY col2 DESC;

may hang in an infinite loop.

The fix is in 4.0.11.

Best regards,

Heikki Tuuri
Innobase Oy
---
InnoDB - transactions, hot backup, and foreign key support for MySQL
See http://www.innodb.com, download MySQL-Max from http://www.mysql.com

sql query

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] dual licence?

body:
Le 08 Feb 2003 01:48:00 +0100,
inspir? erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) ?crivait la plume alerte :
> > Your GFDL contributions will fall into the public domain 70 years
> > after your death anyway. Why wait? Why not release them right now? I
> > found the idea quite liberating, actually.
There is a re-appropriation of public domain actually :
- adobe use a patented protected media to prevent the copy of public
domain books from gutenberg project,
- Disney almost considers it created the sleeping beauty (poor Grim's
brother) and else.
- classical music ...

>
> The FDL idea is, of course, more anti-copyright than the public domain
>
> idea, because it is intended to convince others to release their
> content  openly. It turns copyright against itself - the only freedom
> it takes away  is the freedom to exert control over content. The FDL
> has various problems  (GNU is primarily about software, and hasn't
> really spent much work on  developing decent general open content
> licenses), and other licenses  aren't established enough.
It does not turn copyright agaisnt itself. IP right relyes on 2
mechanism :
- "author's right" (Bern's Convention) which relies on respecting the
author's will and for which trial are complex since you have to bring a
*legal* proof you were the first to create, and it is not enough in most
cases.
- "copyright" (Geneve's convention) based on  the registration of the
creation by the authors to an authority.

Copyleft might be copyrighted, but the copylefted creation are not.

[...]
>
> Regards,
Friendly yours,
>
> Erik

Jul
It appears that PL/I (and its dialects) is, or will be, the most widely
used higher level language for systems programming.
		-- J. Sammet


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
For some unfathomable reason, people want to allow Lir to come back.  Why, is beyond me.  He has been nothing but disruptive since he first came onto the scene.  See the Talk page on [[Iowa State University]] for Lir's very first comments on Wikipedia, in which he called people who disagreed with him morons and specifically said that a dean at Iowa State was a liar for disputing a quote Lir attributed to him.  It's also worth noting that Lir tried to delete the Talk page, but I've restored it so people can see just what he had to say.

His next forary into collegiality was his attempt to make us believe that Christopher Columbus's sole reason for visiting America was to take slaves.  We also encountered a long edit war in which Lir insisted that the article be at [[Cristobal Colon]] (with accent marks I'm not going to try to reproduce here).  He then went into a crusade to rename all places and people by the names they're known in their native languages, instead of by the names they're known to English speakers, even though this is the English wikipedia.  He has never made any attempts to be polite, cordial or cooperative, but insists that only his way can prevail.

When he was finally banned, he went outside the Wikipedia and tried to make people believe, on his personal blog page and elsewhere, that he was banned for his politics, not for his personality and inability to cooperate with others.  So then he came back as Vera Cruz, and continued his lack of cooperation.  Even 172, someone who has the same sort of personality as Lir/Vera Cruz/Adam/Bridget, found him impossible to work with on the [[New Imperialism]] page, even though at first the two of them were allies against those of us who wanted to keep the page NPOV and useful.

And now he claims he's repentant and won't behave in the same manner.  I find it hard to believe, but for some reason, the rest of you think he's reformed.  I've had a long night thinking about this.  At first, I felt that if you thought it was more important to have Lir here than me, that fine, I'd leave and you could have him, and more power to you.  But I've decided that was childish, and I apologize to everybody for saying that.

However ...

If you let Lir back, I'd like to be a sysop.  I've avoided asking for the authority before, even though some people have encouraged me to do it.  But I know that Lir will be as disruptive as before, and I want to be able to deal with him.  I promise I will be on my best behavior, and will not act abruptly.  If you grant me this authority, then I'll go along with the odd request that Lir be allowed to come back.  But if he continues to disrupt, and people don't step in to get rid of him for good, then I do swear I will leave, and I'm not just blowing smoke this time.

Zoe

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Installing Wikipedia3

body:
I've downloaded Wikipedia3 from Sourceforge. (To a Mac, so I'm changing all
the line endings to Unix as I read the program).

I have a web site set up for it to go into and have the information that the
homepage should be named index.htm.

Of the files in newcode base which one should go there? And should it be
renamed?

I'm just trying now to get Wikipedia3 to run, not worrying about how to
change coding to customize it; no one is likely to stumble on the website
for a while, but I'm no programer so I probably could use help later with
one thing or another.

Thanks, Fred


from_name: Tony Wilson

subject: [WikiEN-l] User TMC

body:
Quoted from the user:talk page. No additional comment needed.

Tokerboy: Your user page is in error. You are still banned until
User:Jimbo Wales says otherwise, which will only happen if the mailing
list et al support it.

Ortolan88: And, never under this name

Tannin: Don't trouble to think that there are just one or two weirdos
who take this view: I am about to suggest on the list that you be
completely deleted (if others have not already done so) - and I will be
very surprised if that does not take place. Perhaps others will take a
different view, but I am of the opinion that a user with so little
consideration for other readers cannot be presumed to have anything
useful to contribute, and should not be allowed back under any name or
any circumstances.


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
Just for the record, I also don't want Lir back, under any name.  I was
one of the first to suggest banning she/he/it at the start of the
Columbus tantrum, and was roundly condemned for my uncommunal attitude.
I stand by my original position: Lir is a waste of electrons, to say
nothing of time, and should not be allowed to darken our towels again.

the Epopt
--
 Sean Barrett     | Will the Internet be open tomorrow?
 sean at epoptic.com |

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org]  On Behalf Of Zoe
> Sent:	Saturday, February 08, 2003 11:33
> To:	WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject:	[WikiEN-l] The Lir situation
>
> For some unfathomable reason, people want to allow Lir to come back.
Why, is beyond me.  He has been nothing but disruptive since he first
came onto the scene.  See the Talk page on [[Iowa State University]] for
Lir's very first comments on Wikipedia, in which he called people who
disagreed with him morons and specifically said that a dean at Iowa
State was a liar for disputing a quote Lir attributed to him.  It's also
worth noting that Lir tried to delete the Talk page, but I've restored
it so people can see just what he had to say.
>
> His next forary into collegiality was his attempt to make us believe
that Christopher Columbus's sole reason for visiting America was to take
slaves.  We also encountered a long edit war in which Lir insisted that
the article be at [[Cristobal Colon]] (with accent marks I'm not going
to try to reproduce here).  He then went into a crusade to rename all
places and people by the names they're known in their native languages,
instead of by the names they're known to English speakers, even though
this is the English wikipedia.  He has never made any attempts to be
polite, cordial or cooperative, but insists that only his way can
prevail.
>
> When he was finally banned, he went outside the Wikipedia and tried to
make people believe, on his personal blog page and elsewhere, that he
was banned for his politics, not for his personality and inability to
cooperate with others.  So then he came back as Vera Cruz, and continued
his lack of cooperation.  Even 172, someone who has the same sort of
personality as Lir/Vera Cruz/Adam/Bridget, found him impossible to work
with on the [[New Imperialism]] page, even though at first the two of
them were allies against those of us who wanted to keep the page NPOV
and useful.
>
> And now he claims he's repentant and won't behave in the same manner.
I find it hard to believe, but for some reason, the rest of you think
he's reformed.  I've had a long night thinking about this.  At first, I
felt that if you thought it was more important to have Lir here than me,
that fine, I'd leave and you could have him, and more power to you.  But
I've decided that was childish, and I apologize to everybody for saying
that.
>
> However ...
>
> If you let Lir back, I'd like to be a sysop.  I've avoided asking for
the authority before, even though some people have encouraged me to do
it.  But I know that Lir will be as disruptive as before, and I want to
be able to deal with him.  I promise I will be on my best behavior, and
will not act abruptly.  If you grant me this authority, then I'll go
along with the odd request that Lir be allowed to come back.  But if he
continues to disrupt, and people don't step in to get rid of him for
good, then I do swear I will leave, and I'm not just blowing smoke this
time.
>
> Zoe
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus
<http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com> -
Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
<http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com>


subject: [WikiEN-l] User banned, why?

body:
Zoe: IF he is unbanned, and IF he continues his usual obnoxiousness, I
will leave.  It's that simple.

I'm with Zoe on this one. My feelings exactly. (And note that Zoe and I
are poles apart on most issues.)

Erik suggests that we
1) Place a time limit on the current ban, e.g. March 2003;
alternatively
2) Set out clear conditions which she can meet to be unbanned
immediately.

This is reasonable. Given the severity of past offences by this user,
however, a certain minimum time limit is essential. March is far too
soon. Personally, I'd vote for July, but would settle for May.

Tony


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Zoe et al.

body:
Tom Parmenter wrote:

>Zoe, if you see this, don't jump.
>
After one has hung around for a while one develops an image of the
different characters the hang around the pot-bellied stove at Wikepedia.
 Very few (Mav, Isis (and TMC?!) being notable exceptions) have posted
their picture on their user pages.  One can only imagine what the others
really look like, and I'm afraid that a lot of illusions would be
shattered if they in fact did post those pictures.  If I imagine Tom as
a Walter Matthau Grumpy Old Man lookalike sitting on a broad verandah in
rural Georgia (USA) with his computer perched on top of the washing
machine (meaning that he can only join us on Wikipedia when his wife is
not doing the laundry), I am entitled to my illusions.  Similarly, I can
imagine our "Uncle" Ed as "Mister" Ed viewed from the wrong end, and be
confident that his sense of humour will overcome in the context of some
often divisive debates.

Any experienced duplicate bridge players among us may know of Victor
Mollo's book "Bridge in the Menagerie" provided some very readable
descriptions of the characters that are often found at a bridge club.
 That microcosm of personalities could easily be transferred to Wikipedia.

Zoe is not exempt from caricature.  Sticking to the movie theme (a
subject area where Zoe's contributions have been outstanding) leads me
to the Sandy Dennis character in "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?".  She
is sometimes quick to see offense where none is intended, and would do
well not to accept the invitation to go for drinks with George and
Martha.   We don't all have the thick skin that is needed when dealing
with offensive people.  A passion for seeing things put right is no
protection in the heat of battle; it is more often a vulnerability.

My suggestion to Zoe.  Stay.  Do what you do well.  Let others do the
dirty work. Wandering away from what you do well can leave you suffering
from a bad case of "illegitmis carborundum".

Eclecticology


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Temporally save

body:
I was translating a big article fron english wipedia to spanish wipedia.

I stored the changes (the article was very long, I remark ) using preview.

After some time writting, I tried to save the changes ( indicating " Manual translations ends here; it?s going to be continued") when appeared a DNS error.

I tried to go backwards and the broswer said me " Page has been expired".

So , I missed all the work.

For prevent it, I suggest create a third button named " Temporally save" or similar, to store the articles created by the author, without publish them.

So, later, after improving it, the author can publish it in the wikipedia.

Regards.


body:
On sab, 2003-02-08 at 12:37, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Tom-
> > The Cologne Blue interface has only "Find", no "Search", no "Go".
>
> blame Brion ;-). He didn't want that button in the first place, and I'm
> certainly not going to try to convince him to have it in his beloved
> Cologne Blue skin.

Heh. ;)  If it can get worked in _cleanly and clearly_, I don't mind.
The functionality is useful; I just think it's poorly placed and badly
labeled.

Cologne Blue is still in desperate need of work, but my todo list is
waaay too long and I haven't got to it yet. Others are welcome to pitch
in...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Tom Parmenter

body:
The Cologne Blue interface has only "Find", no "Search", no "Go".

Zoe, if you see this, don't jump.

O88
Tom P.

|From: Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com>
|Sender: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:29:06 -0800 (PST)
|
|--0-178518694-1044692946=:44805
|Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
|That's what the "Go" button is for.
|Why am I still here?
|Zoe
| "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar> wrote:I suggest include the box :
|
|Go to article
|
|For example, if you know "SVG" article exists, the server will transfer you to www.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVG, only writting SVG in the box and clicking the button.
|
|If you go to search you recieve a lot of articles with SVG and it?s less direct solution.
|
|About search if I try to search "svg" ( no capital letters ) the server is going to answer : no articles. And there is an article about "SVG" ( capital letters ).
|
|How solve this problem ??.
|
|Regards.
|
|
|_______________________________________________
|Wikipedia-l mailing list
|Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
|


from_name: Eric Demolli

subject: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
This is user bolero now. It's very alarming !

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Cc: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:31 AM
Subject: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

> There is a very persisant vandal afoot that is jumping accounts and
reverting
> articles to older versions at an alarming rate. I can barely keep up by
using
> the rollback feature.
>
> PLEASE somebody with godlike developer powers block this fuck. I've been
at
> this full time for over an hour -- There are many other things I would
rather
> be doing on Wikipedia.
>
> A very frustrated mav
>
> I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
> ridiculous!
>
> This VANDAL started with user:Annetit and has already created about a
dozen
> other accounts just to stay a step ahead of me rollbacking his edits
(since
> for each new user name on RC I have to review the edits before determining
> they are vandalism or not -- which is damn difficult because the VANDAL is
> often reverting to slightly older versions!)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Size of database dump

body:
On sab, 2003-02-08 at 13:03, Magnus Manske wrote:
> It seems that in each database dump, we have the "search indexed"
> article text as well, which contains the same text as the article, but
> without special chars.
>
> Can we not dump that field next time? It would reduce the file size (and
> download time) by about 50%!

Already done!

The most recent revision of the software splits the search index fields
into a separate table (so the main tables can optionally use InnoDB
table type), with the side effect that the current revision dumps are
decreased in size by about 30%. (Not quite 50%; there's a lot of
redundancy between the text and the indexable text.) Here's the Dutch
dumps before and after:

   4477364 Feb  2 08:17 20030202_cur_table.sql.bz2
   2786244 Feb  4 08:52 20030204_cur_table.sql.bz2

Currently only English, Dutch, Esperanto, Polish, and Meta are on that
revision; I'll be upgrading the rest today, but I still haven't gotten
language file revisions for most languages, so some new bits of the
interface will appear in English.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
> I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
> ridiculous!

I agree. Sysops need emergency powers to ban signed in users in cases of
obvious vandalism.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>I agree. Sysops need emergency powers to ban signed in users in cases of
>obvious vandalism.

As I stated in a previous post, I think it would help if Wikipedia's
tech people could work on some enhanced security features. We can
debate the details, but I think they should include:

(1) Flexibility on the part of the administrator (Jimbo). If there
are no vandals currently active, the current laissez-faire system
works fine. When there's a pest afoot, however, Jimbo should be able
to temporarily turn on additional security features, such as giving
sysops added powers.

(2) The ability to temporarily restrict contributions from
non-registered users.

(3) The ability to create some kind of registration barrier that will
make it harder for vandals to get back in the door immediately by
simply registering under a new name.

(4) The ability to push a button that will instantly send one million
megavolts coursing through the body of Ed Poor. (Just joking.)
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
What about a reversion script ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

> > I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
> > ridiculous!
>
> I agree. Sysops need emergency powers to ban signed in users in cases of
> obvious vandalism.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Mirko Thiessen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
> Message: 9
> From: Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 01:31:53 -0800
> Cc: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org

> I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
> ridiculous!

Agreed.

If we manage to find out the IP, shouldn't a vandal attack of this
extent be reason enough to contact the provider of this idiot?

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: = Re:_front_page_of_www_and_Troph=E9es_du_Libre?=

body:
On Saturday 08 February 2003 12:35 pm, Erik Moeller wrote:
>.....
> If you want more than just language links on the portal, you have to wait
> for phase IV. It's that simple. What we probably can do immediately,
> though, is highlight (e.g. background color) the existing language link to
>   the user's primary language on *every page* (not just www.wikipedia.org)
> that has a translation in that language.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

Well if Anthere et al don't want an automatic slice of the huge amount of
traffic going to en.wiki's Main Page then I really don't know what to say.
<analogy>
Just because street thugs (advertisers) use knifes (language redirection based
on browser settings) doesn't mean that you shouldn't trust your surgeon with
a scalpel.
</analogy>

But I really like your highlighting idea Erik. This gives /even/ more
visibility to the multilanguage(sic) aspect of Wikipedia while still
presenting the user with a content laden and useful entry point.

I think we should reexamine Anthere's 'content on the portal' idea for
possible implementation in Phase IV. This might be a good place to have
en.wiki's Selected Articles section (if and when the browser a person is
using is set to English - if not then some selected content from the
appropriate language would be presented).

Heck, we could even set the 'selected content' to include the whole Main Page
that corresponds to the language set in a person's browser (what would be
more useful than that?). Then what we would have is Neil's header proposal.

--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma:
I added more events to [[February 3]] and (as always) after Zoe finished
adding more births/deaths and even more events I updated all the year pages
and many of the other articles linked from that page.


body:
Now it's Ivone.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: daniwo59 at aol.com
  To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
  Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] (Oklah) SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

  What is going on with Oklah? Is that the same one?

  Danny
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Slow query log

body:
Slow query log from Friday morning to present:
http://www.wikipedia.org/tools/slowquerylog.gz

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

body:
What about don?t allow a user utilize more than one  IP ??. And create an IP control review tool ??.

Only ideas, no programs.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
To: <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Cc: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:31 AM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW!

> There is a very persisant vandal afoot that is jumping accounts and reverting
> articles to older versions at an alarming rate. I can barely keep up by using
> the rollback feature.
>
> PLEASE somebody with godlike developer powers block this fuck. I've been at
> this full time for over an hour -- There are many other things I would rather
> be doing on Wikipedia.
>
> A very frustrated mav
>
> I think it is way past time that admins can view users' IPs. This is
> ridiculous!
>
> This VANDAL started with user:Annetit and has already created about a dozen
> other accounts just to stay a step ahead of me rollbacking his edits (since
> for each new user name on RC I have to review the edits before determining
> they are vandalism or not -- which is damn difficult because the VANDAL is
> often reverting to slightly older versions!)


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
I have no problem with Erik's provisos, they're pretty much what I would have done anyway.  Except for being a moderator, not an editor.  Are you saying you don't want me working on any articles on my own?  If that's what you're saying, I can't live with that.
Zoe
 Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:Zoe,

thanks for thinking about this. The thing is, while Lir has made many
edits that justified her ban, as Mav and others have observed, her
behavior has somewhat improved recently. I don't recall her calling anyone
a moron under the "Vera Cruz" identity, for example. I also think that any
ban should be temporary, and that we should give everyone an opportunity
to reform.

Regarding your connected sysop request, I have no objections under these
conditions, which every sysop should meet:

1) That you are not an editor, but a moderator;
2) That you do not use the "page protection" privilege in conflicts where
you yourself are involved;
3) That you only delete pages which are obvious nonsense
("aihwerjfoaijw"), or have been listed on "Votes for deletion" for a while
without significant dissent.

Given these restrictions, I also find it hard to see what you could do
regarding Lir's behavior with sysop privileges that you cannot presently
do?

Regards,

Erik
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Slow query log

body:
> Slow query log from Friday morning to present:
> http://www.wikipedia.org/tools/slowquerylog.gz

I notice more slow queries than you'd expect on user_newtalk. It's a
bone-simple query, fully indexed:
EXPLAIN SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_ip='some_ip_address';
+--------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+-------+------+-------------------------+
| table        | type | possible_keys | key     | key_len | ref   | rows | Extra                   |
+--------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+-------+------+-------------------------+
| user_newtalk | ref  | user_ip       | user_ip |      40 | const |    1 | where used; Using index |
+--------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+-------+------+-------------------------+

or:

EXPLAIN SELECT 1 FROM user_newtalk WHERE user_id=some_user_id_number;
+--------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+-------+------+-------------------------+
| table        | type | possible_keys | key     | key_len | ref   | rows | Extra                   |
+--------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+-------+------+-------------------------+
| user_newtalk | ref  | user_id       | user_id |       4 | const |    1 | where used; Using index |
+--------------+------+---------------+---------+---------+-------+------+-------------------------+

One of these two queries happens on *every* page view; the table itself
is quite small (a few dozen rows generally), and 99% of the time queries
will turn up no rows. It's only altered when a user talk page is
changed, or viewed by its owner.

CREATE TABLE `user_newtalk` (
  `user_id` int(5) NOT NULL default '0',
  `user_ip` varchar(40) NOT NULL default '',
  KEY `user_ip` (`user_ip`),
  KEY `user_id` (`user_id`)
) TYPE=MyISAM

I'm assuming that the sometime slowness here is a side effect of other
things being slow somehow.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
----- Original Message -----
From: Zoe
To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Navigation and search tools

That's what the "Go" button is for.

When the Go features has not been temporally disabled

Sorry! This feature has been temporarily disabled during peak access hours for performance reasons; come back between 02:00 and 14:00 UTC and try again.

Upto them, work missed.

>Why am I still here?

To write encyclopedia I think :D

Regards.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Donations?

body:
What about include wikipedia in portals to recieve money to mantain the servers ???
Yahoo, i.e., could include an encyclopedia ( wikipedia ) in the portal.
Regards.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:  ips for usernames

body:
On Saturday 08 February 2003 12:35 pm, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> It sometimes happens that true vandals login.  I give as an example
> Annetit on the [[Woman]] article.  If this person was posting from an
> ip number, instead of a username, they would have been promptly and
> justly banned immediately.
>
> It would be nice if sysops could just as easily obtain and ban the ip
> number for a username.
>
> There *are* some potential political problems with this, obviously.
> One of the most important "checks" against sysop "power" is that by
> logging in, people are immune to banning unless we go through a whole
> political process of deciding to ban them, which is always a big deal.
>
> And that's a good thing, I think, as uncomfortable as it is sometimes.
>
> So, ideas?
>
> --Jimbo

After I spent at least 4 hours fighting this clown when I should have been
sleeping you already know where my opinion resides on the issue of whether or
not to allow Admins to block the IPs of logged-in vandals (thanks for doing
the blocking BTW - I /really/ needed some sleep by that point). It would be
nice, if easy to implement, for an Admin to be able to block the IP a
logged-in user is using without exposing their IP to the Admin.

This would prevent an Admin from doing preemptive blocks of IP ranges but some
users might not be comfortable with exposing their IP - even if it is only to
Admins. A wealth of information can be obtained on a person once you have
their IP and even though I trust that this information would not be abused by
the Admins I know of several people on the en.wiki who would make more of
this than it really is.

So the blocked user page could say:

14:02 Feb 8, 2003, [[SeanAvery941]] blocked 'IP1_used_by_User:Annetit'
([[contribs]]) ([[unblock]]) (Vandalized a series of pages by reverting to
earlier versions. Annetit did not stop after being asked to do so and then
did not stop after being warned)

Developers, of course, would still be able to see the actual IP so that the
person's ISP can be notified if needed. Developers would also be the only
ones with the ability to actually ban a /user name/ from being used at any
IP.

But of course, blocking the IP of a logged-in user needs at least a good
mention on the mailing list. Perhaps whenever /any ban/ is enacted a message
indicating the IP/ user name banned, the Admin doing the banning and the
stated reason why the ban was implemented would be sent to either the
corresponding language-specific mailing list (wikinl-l, wikifr-l, wikipl-l,
wikien-l, wikieo-l, intlwiki-l - for languages without their own mailing
list) or all ban notifications go to wikipedia-l (probably the best option in
terms of accountability).

That would be another check on Admin power especially since it creates a
permanent record of bans in a forum that can debate the merits of the ban.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma:
I was up all night helping to clean-up after the MIT Vandal.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] ips for usernames

body:
On sab, 2003-02-08 at 04:43, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> It would be nice if sysops could just as easily obtain and ban the ip
> number for a username.

For that matter, it's high past time we had an explicit privacy policy.

I've put a preliminary draft at:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_privacy_policy

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Jonathan Walther

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 09:22:00PM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote:
>Regarding your connected sysop request, I have no objections under these
>conditions, which every sysop should meet:
>
>1) That you are not an editor, but a moderator;
>2) That you do not use the "page protection" privilege in conflicts where
>you yourself are involved;
>3) That you only delete pages which are obvious nonsense
>("aihwerjfoaijw"), or have been listed on "Votes for deletion" for a while
>without significant dissent.

I think none of these restrictions should apply to Zoe when she is
dealing with Lir, and her actions pertaining to Lir should not be reversed
by another sysop unless there is a consensus, not only that Lir made an
"ok" contribution, but that he was showing proper respect for the fact that
we all have to work together here.

If he is willing to cooperate, let's let him.  If he wants to compete
and call people names, we shouldn't have to sit on our hands and weep
while we wait for Jimmy to reinstitute a ban.

I suggest that Zoe can be Lir's mentor; if Lir ignores Zoe, then only he
is to blame for whatever action she uses her sysop powers for to deal
with him.  Not only is it poetic justice, but I feel Lir has progressed
enough that spending time deliberately trying not to piss off Zoe would
complete the polish on his Wiki-indoctrination and make him the valued
contributor we all know he is capable of being.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:  ips for usernames

body:
On sab, 2003-02-08 at 15:02, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> After I spent at least 4 hours fighting this clown when I should have been
> sleeping you already know where my opinion resides on the issue of whether or
> not to allow Admins to block the IPs of logged-in vandals ... It would be
> nice, if easy to implement, for an Admin to be able to block the IP a
> logged-in user is using without exposing their IP to the Admin.

Hmm, that would require a couple changes:

1) A column in the user table listing the last IP address used by the
account (recorded with the account, not the edit, so that users' IPs
aren't publicly shown or recorded in the downloadable database dumps)

2) A "secret" IP column on the ip blocks table, from which the IP
addresses would be blocked but not shown.

These two columns would be blocked from sysops' SQL access, as the email
and passwords are now.

I'm not sure I like it, but it is technically doable.

Another thought, I believe it's been suggested in the past, is an "IP
probation" list that highlights edits from "suspicious" IPs or users.
Combining this with the above (and subnet matching) would make it easier
to keep track of shape-shifting troublemakers without banning legitimate
edits from entire networks.

And, of course, automatic expiration of old bans. Some kid at a library
who defaced a few pages shouldn't cause us to ban the whole library
forever.

> But of course, blocking the IP of a logged-in user needs at least a good
> mention on the mailing list. Perhaps whenever /any ban/ is enacted a message
> indicating the IP/ user name banned, the Admin doing the banning and the
> stated reason why the ban was implemented would be sent to either the
> corresponding language-specific mailing list

That's also doable, and probably a good idea in any case.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lir situation

body:
On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 06:49:38PM -0500, Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>That's not what it means. It just means that we (sysops) need to separate
>our editing
>from our adminning/sysop work. If I think an article needs protection from
>vandals, _I
>stop editing it myself_. This is to avoid the temptation to use sysop
>powers unfairly in
>an edit war.
>
>It doesn't mean I can't edit pages, or that you wouldn't be able to.

In practice, it amounts to that. I have seen Eric and Ortolan and some
others attack Ed Poor when he appropriately protected a page to stop an edit
war, when he had recently been involved in editing that page himself.

I believe that attack on Ed Poor was unjustified, and I don't want to
see a repeat of such attacks made on Zoe.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] SVG

body:
On sab, 2003-02-08 at 01:05, Pedro M.V. wrote:
> I suggest the wikimaps be in SVG ( www.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVG ) open W3C Standar.
>
> The text contained in a SVG graphic can be edited, selected, indexed by search machines ( wikipedia search machine) and so on.
>
> So very usefull for wikipedians.

Please see http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVG_image_support

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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