from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [WikiEN-l] Am I the only one...

body:
At 10:13 AM 8/14/03 -0700, Steve wrote:
>Ah agreed. Im just wondering if we're not being too
>hard on the kid -- after all, we might be taking his
>comments out of context.
>
>  ;)

Either that smiley means to ignore the whole message--in which
case, why bother posting?--or I'd like to know what plausible
context justifies a series of obscene insults to someone the
vandal in question has never met.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Is there backup power for the servers?

body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:

>I have read news about a power problem in the USA. Is there a backup power
>system for the Wikipedia servers and there conection to the internet?
>

I have no idea what our power infrastructure is like, but I wouldn't
worry too much; the server is on the opposite end of the country from
today's big power outages.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikien-l

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Am I the only one who suspects that this Kenneth is Lir?

body:
Abe-

> Kenneth, who is persistently vandalizing Mr. Wales' user
> page, seems to be following in Adam?s footsteps, but with a greater
> intensity and viciousness.

While it is obvious that Lir is/was PP, I think it is out of the question
that Kenneth (? I don't really know how the last character of his nickname
is pronounced) is Lir -- Lir has never insulted people on this level:

# 12:54, Aug 14, 2003 User talk:Kennet ( == BUTTFUCKER JIMBO WALES ==
BUTTFUCKER JIMBO WALESBUTTFUCKER JIMBO WALESBUTTFUCKER JIMBO
WALESBUTTFUCKER JIMBO WALESBUTTFUCKER JIMBO WALESBUTTFUCKER JIMBO
WALESBUTTFUCKER JIMBO WALESBUTTFUCKER JIMB)
# 12:48, Aug 14, 2003 User talk:Kennet (BUTTFUCKER JIMBO WALES)
# 12:40, Aug 14, 2003 User talk:Kennet (JIMBO WALES IS SHIT)
# 12:37, Aug 14, 2003 User talk:Kennet (BUTTFUCKER)

Aside from that, it's completely irrelevant -- Kenny has done more than
enough to warrant a ban, but right now, we're experimenting with auto-
reverting instead of hard-banning, which so far seems to be successful.
(The fact that this wastes lots of harddisk space and bloats our database
of old article revisions bugs me on a purely technical level, though.)

Regards,

Erik


body:
Abe-

> Lir or not, this Kenneth character has to be a past vandal with a grudge.
> Once again, he knew to target Mr. Wales; he knew his way around the site
> very well; and he described one of his edits as ?no more vigilante
> dictatorship of a free website." It could be another user with a grudge, but
> what other banned user, aside from Lir, targeted what he saw as an unjust
> ?cabal? or ?dictatorship?? His location should be determined, whether he?s
> Lir, Michael, DW, or anyone else. This will give us key insights when we
> deal with these reappearing trouble-makers in the future.

I'm still not sure what it matters -- just revert the vandal and carry on
with more important things. Do not feed the trolls.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] academic research on Wikis

body:
Erik Zachte wrote:

> Chuck Smith has graduated with a study on wiki?s.
>
> He is also the founder of the flourishing Esperanto Wikipedia and a
> very active member.
>

Chuck is travelling and may be out of contact for a bit... I think he
gets back to Rotterdam on the 25th.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Tobin Richard

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Server timezone.

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

<SNIP>

>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Thanks Brion, I'll buy you a beer if you're ever in Melbourne.

Tobin Richard
http://www.sca.org.au


from_name: Steve Vertigo

subject: [Wikitech-l] propose changes to Interwiki.php

body:
Well we dont want to scare the developers off, thats
for sure.  Otherwise theres no point in beating around
the bush.
-S-

> Steve Vertigo wrote:
>
> >
> >>TARQ:  I have an additional suggestion.
> >>It would sometimes be useful to be able to make a
> >>link to another
> >>language, without it being 'magic'.
> >>For example, on the Wikipedia:Embassy page, we
> have
> >>to resort of full
> >>URLS hidden with pipes.
> >>
> >>Perhaps the syntax [[:fr:pagename]] could be used?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >So you want language articles in the body... I have
> >thought about that recently.  That would mean, (if
> we
> >wanted to continue in the trend treating language
> >links as separate from the article body ) The
> answer
> >would be either to make language tags different,
> >depending on where they want to go -- so for the
> body,
> >only [[ru:article]], and in the header
> [[rus:article]]
> >-- the other idea would go along with what people
> have
> >been thinking for a while -- which would be to deal
> >with inter-language tags in the headers as metadata
> --
> >a separate dataspace separate from the article (
> but
> >attached to it). It would then be editable in a
> >separate field from the article body (with an [edit
> >meta] link on a page (for sysops only?). And then
> of
> >course It would be nice to have a common user space
> >and combined recent changes. And jeez after all my
> >blabberin I find that this is old hat =
>
>http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_on_language_integration
> >
> >
> >
> Talk about taking a simple idea and making it
> complicated!
> It is sometimes useful to link to other languages
> from talk pages or
> Wikipedia: pages. That is all. No need to change
> anything else at this
> time :)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Am I the only one...

body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:

>A sense of humor can justify nearly anything.
>
>-S-
>
..... except people without a sense of humour.

Ec


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Walter Vermeir wrote:
>
>> I have read news about a power problem in the USA. Is there a backup
>> power system for the Wikipedia servers and there conection to the
>> internet?
>
> I have no idea what our power infrastructure is like, but I wouldn't
> worry too much; the server is on the opposite end of the country from
> today's big power outages.

What protection do we have against California brownouts?

All we can hope for with massive blackouts like today's is that the
system has enough backup power to shut itself off in an orderly fashion
without hurting itself.  Beyond that all we can do is wait for the power
to come back on.  Despite our sympathies, I doubt that emergency
personnel would attach the same importance to Wikipedia that we do. :-)

Ec


from_name: Walter Vermeir

body:
I have read news about a power problem in the USA. Is there a backup power
system for the Wikipedia servers and there conection to the internet?

--
Contact: walter AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


from_name: tarquin

body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:

>
>>TARQ:  I have an additional suggestion.
>>It would sometimes be useful to be able to make a
>>link to another
>>language, without it being 'magic'.
>>For example, on the Wikipedia:Embassy page, we have
>>to resort of full
>>URLS hidden with pipes.
>>
>>Perhaps the syntax [[:fr:pagename]] could be used?
>>
>>
>
>So you want language articles in the body... I have
>thought about that recently.  That would mean, (if we
>wanted to continue in the trend treating language
>links as separate from the article body ) The answer
>would be either to make language tags different,
>depending on where they want to go -- so for the body,
>only [[ru:article]], and in the header [[rus:article]]
>-- the other idea would go along with what people have
>been thinking for a while -- which would be to deal
>with inter-language tags in the headers as metadata --
>a separate dataspace separate from the article ( but
>attached to it). It would then be editable in a
>separate field from the article body (with an [edit
>meta] link on a page (for sysops only?). And then of
>course It would be nice to have a common user space
>and combined recent changes. And jeez after all my
>blabberin I find that this is old hat =
>http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_on_language_integration
>
>
>
Talk about taking a simple idea and making it complicated!
It is sometimes useful to link to other languages from talk pages or
Wikipedia: pages. That is all. No need to change anything else at this
time :)


from_name: Jason Richey

in_reply_to: <3F3C43C5.4000201@telus.net>; from saintonge@telus.net on Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 07:21:57PM -0700

body:
Our colocation facility "Guarantees" 100% uptime.  So, they have
generators and all that jazz.  However, the power grids that went down
today were designed with mechanisms that were supposed to keep the
cascading failure from happening.  So, there are generators and big
UPSes, but we don't know for sure that they will work.  We just have
the colocation's "Guarantee" that they will.

That's the best we can hope for, IMHO.

Jason

Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> > Walter Vermeir wrote:
> >
> >> I have read news about a power problem in the USA. Is there a backup
> >> power system for the Wikipedia servers and there conection to the
> >> internet?
> >
> > I have no idea what our power infrastructure is like, but I wouldn't
> > worry too much; the server is on the opposite end of the country from
> > today's big power outages.
>
> What protection do we have against California brownouts?
>
> All we can hope for with massive blackouts like today's is that the
> system has enough backup power to shut itself off in an orderly fashion
> without hurting itself.  Beyond that all we can do is wait for the power
> to come back on.  Despite our sympathies, I doubt that emergency
> personnel would attach the same importance to Wikipedia that we do. :-)
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Academic studies on Wiki

body:
Dear Fernanda;

For a list of academic studies on wikipedia, please take a look at small
list at my user page on English wikipedia (but no visualization study):

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tomos

Tomos

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
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from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikitech-l] academic research on Wikis

body:
Chuck Smith has graduated with a study on wiki's.

He is also the founder of the flourishing Esperanto Wikipedia and a very
active member.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Chuck_SMITH

http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediisto:Chuck_SMITH

Erik Zachte

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiktionary backups

body:
An embarrassing note: all backup dumps of Wiktionary at least between
April and last week were corrupted because the backup script tried to
get data from the wrong database name. :P

 From today, it should be fine.

As usual, dumps live at: http://download.wikipedia.org/

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: textbook-l

from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [Textbook-l] distinct books

body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> My own view is that NPOV itself provides a sort of
> self-censorship
> that is hopefully not as heavy handed as what a
> proprietary
> development process comes up with.
>
> NPOV is designed to be maximally acceptable to a
> wide range of people.
> A feminist and a pastor of very different political
> and ethical
> frameworks ought to be able to read any NPOV article
> or book and agree
> that it's fair.
>
> With a proprietary development process, the only way
> to achieve
> consensus is to simply omit or water down material
> that might offend.
> With the many-minds creativity of the wiki process,
> there's usually a
> way to present the material in such a way that
> everyone can agree on
> it.

I wish I could agree with you, but I can't. Although
NPOV is the epitomy of nonbias, it's just not enough
for some people. Feminists, if they looked at
Wikipedia for a school, might say that we don't use
gender-neutral pronouns all the time and that
hypothetical people (eg. "Each person has his own
variation on language, called an ideolect") aren't
either female or reffered to with the clumsy "him or
her" (although that's being replaced again with "her
or him"). The conservatives would complain that we
report on certain topics like Wiccans and fantasy
novels. It's minutae like that that are driving most
of the censorship, slowly blanding all textbooks until
they're nothing. There was a really good anecdote for
this in that book (The Language Police) but I forgot
exactly what it was.
LDan

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body:
--- Abe Sokolov <sokolov47 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Lir or not, this Kenneth character has to be a past
> vandal with a grudge. Once again, he knew to target
> Mr. Wales; he knew his way around the site very
> well; and he described one of his edits as ?no more
> vigilante dictatorship of a free website." It could
> be another user with a grudge, but what other banned
> user, aside from Lir, targeted what he saw as an
> unjust ?cabal? or ?dictatorship?? His location
> should be determined, whether he?s Lir, Michael, DW,
> or anyone else. This will give us key insights when
> we deal with these reappearing trouble-makers in the
> future.

He could also be Palistinian Liberator, we can't
forget him.
LDan

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from_name: Jimmy Wales

in_reply_to: <bhh20g$voj$1@sea.gmane.org>; from walter@wikipedia.be on Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 10:21:04PM +0000

body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:
> I have read news about a power problem in the USA. Is there a backup power
> system for the Wikipedia servers and there conection to the internet?

Yes.  The servers are in San Diego, CA, so the current crisis has not
affected them in any way.  But of course, a future crisis could affect
them.

But the server facility has multiple backup power sources.  My
understanding is as follows:

1.  The server co-location facility has two redundant connections to
different parts of the local grid, to protect against a highly
localized failure due to unauthorized digging and the like.

2.  In the event of power failure anyway, there is apparently battery
backup for a sufficient time for the generators to get going.

3.  There are two redundant generators in case one fails to start.

4.  There is enough fuel on-site to run for 12 hours (I think), and
the facility has a "2 hour" contract with local suppliers so that they
can call and get more fuel delivered within 2 hours.

-------

None of this is an absolute guarantee, of course, but it's pretty
good.

--Jimbo


subject: [Textbook-l] distinct books

in_reply_to: <20030815120650.33849.qmail@web41804.mail.yahoo.com>; from littledanehren@yahoo.com on Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 05:06:50AM -0700

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> I wish I could agree with you, but I can't. Although
> NPOV is the epitomy of nonbias, it's just not enough
> for some people. Feminists, if they looked at
> Wikipedia for a school, might say that we don't use
> gender-neutral pronouns all the time and that
> hypothetical people (eg. "Each person has his own
> variation on language, called an ideolect") aren't
> either female or reffered to with the clumsy "him or
> her" (although that's being replaced again with "her
> or him").

Then they should edit it.  Done well, gender neutral language is
invisible.  Only poor writers make it seem clumsy.

I have been an advocate of gender neutral language for many years, and
I think I'm pretty successful at it.  To my knowledge, no one really
notices it in my writing, because I avoid clumsy constructions.

There is no question, of course, that at any given point in time,
there *might* be something POV about an article, including using
gendered pronouns inappropriately.  But NPOV, which is a social
process, not a final result, is very useful.

> The conservatives would complain that we report on certain topics
> like Wiccans and fantasy novels.

I don't think reasonable conservatives would complain that we *report
on* such things.  After all, *they* report on such things all the
time. :-)

It is of course true that it's always possible to find some lunatic
for whom any mention of hot-button topic X must include a thorough
denunciation of X.  We can't please those people.  But even some
pretty hardcore partisans who are not lunatics can agree on a
presentation of X that's NPOV.

This works more often than not.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] Link checking

body:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Erik Zachte wrote:
> I am not familiar with the PHP code, so this may be already done:
>
> In the English Wikipedia 9.5% of links (362K out of 3800K total) consist
> of references to years between 0 and 2000.
>
> Therefore two lines of code might save quite a bit of link checking.

I really doubt this kind of special casing would save much. Since these
pages all exist, we've already loaded the fact of their existence by
grabbing the current page's outgoing links from the 'links' table and it's
just a lookup in an associative array.

> "|Race (US Census)|Square mile|Census|Population density|United States
> Census Bureau|Asia|Geographic references|Native American|African
> American|Hispanic|Latino|United States|"
>
> would again save > 10% of checks (390K)
>
> (assuming all articles are viewed equally often, which of course is not
> true)

I'd wager that most of the rambot pages are viewed primarily by googlebot,
and it gets precached pages. ;)

-- brion vibber vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Damn good, Ill say.  All thats missing then is a
dedicated satellite linkup to broadcast in case the
isp catches fire.  :)

> Yes.  The servers are in San Diego, CA, so the
> current crisis has not
> affected them in any way.  But of course, a future
> crisis could affect
> them.
>
> But the server facility has multiple backup power
> sources.  My
> understanding is as follows:
>
> 1.  The server co-location facility has two
> redundant connections to
> different parts of the local grid, to protect
> against a highly
> localized failure due to unauthorized digging and
> the like.
>
> 2.  In the event of power failure anyway, there is
> apparently battery
> backup for a sufficient time for the generators to
> get going.
>
> 3.  There are two redundant generators in case one
> fails to start.
>
> 4.  There is enough fuel on-site to run for 12 hours
> (I think), and
> the facility has a "2 hour" contract with local
> suppliers so that they
> can call and get more fuel delivered within 2 hours.
>
> -------
>
> None of this is an absolute guarantee, of course,
> but it's pretty
> good.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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from_name: Merritt L. Perkins

subject: [Wikipedia-l] academic research on Wikis

body:
I am new to Wikipedia. I learned about it from news on the Internet. At
first I could access Encyclopedia entries and found some excellent
detailed information. I can no longer find any of these entries. They
told me that they are buying new equipment , and I hope to that will take
care of the situation.
I find myself in a strange, unfamiliar world and I don?t know the
language or customs.
First I want to know how to look up information in the Encyclopedia. I
want to know how to read the information, select the desired part, and
either copy or print it.
Then I want to know how to write an article. I will need a title or
heading. Next I will give a brief description to be followed by the more
detailed body of the article. After I edit it the way I want it I will
need to have other people work at over to make corrections and provide
additional information.
I had a colonoscopy several months ago so I could write an article about
colonoscopy and what it is like for the patient. A nurse death could
provide more detailed information about preparation for the procedure and
a surgeon could provide pictures of hemorrhoids, polyps, and colon cancer
from his records.
I am self-employed and use my computers to write magazine articles that
are sent by e-mail to the editor along with drawings and pictures taken
with my digital camera.
I am interested in chat but don?t have time to write more right now.
Merritt L. Perkins


subject: [Textbook-l] censorship (was: distinct books)

body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> > I wish I could agree with you, but I can't.
> Although
> > NPOV is the epitomy of nonbias, it's just not
> enough
> > for some people. Feminists, if they looked at
> > Wikipedia for a school, might say that we don't
> use
> > gender-neutral pronouns all the time and that
> > hypothetical people (eg. "Each person has his own
> > variation on language, called an ideolect") aren't
> > either female or reffered to with the clumsy "him
> or
> > her" (although that's being replaced again with
> "her
> > or him").
>
> Then they should edit it.
They don't want to write their own textbook. I agree
with you in principle, though.
> Done well, gender neutral
> language is
> invisible.  Only poor writers make it seem clumsy.
>
You're right. A wiki would make for good
gender-neutral language. And it gets pretty bad when
extremists say you can reffer to ''his''tory or
''her''etic. This is not a pun, it is real.
>
> I have been an advocate of gender neutral language
> for many years, and
> I think I'm pretty successful at it.  To my
> knowledge, no one really
> notices it in my writing, because I avoid clumsy
> constructions.
>
I think gender neutral language can be OK, but since
it means the same thing, what's the difference,
really? I guess if it pleases people like you it's
fine to use it.
>
> There is no question, of course, that at any given
> point in time,
> there *might* be something POV about an article,
> including using
> gendered pronouns inappropriately.  But NPOV, which
> is a social
> process, not a final result, is very useful.
>
> > The conservatives would complain that we report on
> certain topics
> > like Wiccans and fantasy novels.
>
> I don't think reasonable conservatives would
> complain that we *report
> on* such things.  After all, *they* report on such
> things all the
> time. :-)
>
Again, you bring up the "reasonable" conservatives.
Like many said after you mentioned the reasonable
creationists (most creationists are conservatives),
reasonable conservatives using your view are few and
far bewteen and are disliked by many other
conservatives.
>
> It is of course true that it's always possible to
> find some lunatic
> for whom any mention of hot-button topic X must
> include a thorough
> denunciation of X.  We can't please those people.
> But even some
> pretty hardcore partisans who are not lunatics can
> agree on a
> presentation of X that's NPOV.
>
But they say the representation itself is, well not
POV (sorry about that usage of POV), but against their
religion and therefore violates freedom of religion.
>
> This works more often than not.
>
> --Jimbo

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body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> For what it's worth, Adam has assured me that he is
> not Pizza Puzzle,
> and that he has moved on to other interests.  He and
> I have had a
> reasonably pleasant ongoing conversation about
> politics in which he
> joked that maybe Pizza Puzzle is Ann Coulter and I
> responded that
> maybe Pizza Puzzle is Michael Moore -- or that they
> are sharing the
> account.
>
> (If you know who Ann Coulter and Michael Moore are,
> that's a hysterical
> thought.)
>
> It is possible, of course, that he's violated by
> trust by lying to me
> point blank.  Certainly, considerable evidence
> suggests at least that
> Pizza Puzzle is located in the same geographical
> area as Adam, and the
> coinciding of interests is therefore remarkable.
>
> --Jimbo

This sounds familiar. Hasn't Adam lied previously
about this type of thing?
LDan

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in_reply_to: <20030815183014.90298.qmail@web41802.mail.yahoo.com>; from littledanehren@yahoo.com on Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:30:14AM -0700

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> Again, you bring up the "reasonable" conservatives.
> Like many said after you mentioned the reasonable
> creationists (most creationists are conservatives),
> reasonable conservatives using your view are few and
> far bewteen and are disliked by many other
> conservatives.

Well, I don't think so.  I think that the success of the wiki model
shows that even people of wildly different perspectives can behave
reasonably when there is a culture and software to encourage it.

I don't think reasonable conservatives are hard to find, nor do I
think reasonable liberals are hard to find.

> But they say the representation itself is, well not
> POV (sorry about that usage of POV), but against their
> religion and therefore violates freedom of religion.

Well, a properly written NPOV presentation of wicca, for example,
should absolutely NOT be against Christianity, nor should it be
against Atheism.  It's just a description of what it is, not advocacy
in any way.  By having people from many perspectives editing the same
passage, we have excellent insurance (the best yet invented, I think)
against inadvertant advocacy masquerading as objectivity.

--Jimbo


body:
Erik Zachte wrote:
> I saw images on CNN yesterday. I wonder how someone will get through the
> walking crowd to deliver fuel :)
> That is if phones are still operational and a fuel order can be placed
> at all.

:-) Well, this is in San Diego, actually in La Jolla, so people don't
take trains or public transportation of any kind for the most part.
If the power goes out, everyone will just jump in their cars and go
surfing.  And in La Jolla, no one, not even the rich, has air
conditioning, because the weather is so perfect.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Calif recall candidates --

body:
I think we ought to list each of the recall
candidates, and invite their staffs to add to their
articles.

Crazy? :)

http://www.sfgate.com/gate/special/pages/2003/recall/
http://www.georgyforgov.com/index.htm ! ! go geeks!

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Calif recall candidates --


body:
Morally wrong? Fiscally wrong? Professionally wrong?
Be more verbose in your damnations, Fred.

-S-

--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> on 8/15/03 1:45 PM, Steve Vertigo at
> utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I think we ought to list each of the recall
> > candidates, and invite their staffs to add to
> their
> > articles.
> >
> > Crazy? :)
>
> No, just wrong.
>
> Fred
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

__________________________________
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body:
Hmm.  I agree. But what about those who are limited in
terms of their coverage, and yet still are "more
qualified than most" to be candidates?  Inbetweeners
if you will.

I guess Im thinking of it more as a sick wikipublicity
stunt, TBH (apologies) -- I dont care either way, I do
think there should be a full list of candidates here,
though.

Thanks, Fred
-S-

> > Morally wrong? Fiscally wrong? Professionally
> wrong?
> > Be more verbose in your damnations, Fred.
> >
> > -S-
>
> Most of the candidates are not appropriate
> encyclopedia entries despite
> being candidates in the California Recall Election.
> Mere entry into the race
> has a threshold of 50 petition signatures and
> payment of $3500.
>
> Fred
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
on 8/15/03 1:45 PM, Steve Vertigo at utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com wrote:

> I think we ought to list each of the recall
> candidates, and invite their staffs to add to their
> articles.
>
> Crazy? :)

No, just wrong.

Fred


body:
on 8/15/03 2:06 PM, Steve Vertigo at utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com wrote:

> Morally wrong? Fiscally wrong? Professionally wrong?
> Be more verbose in your damnations, Fred.
>
> -S-

Most of the candidates are not appropriate encyclopedia entries despite
being candidates in the California Recall Election. Mere entry into the race
has a threshold of 50 petition signatures and payment of $3500.

Fred


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiktionary backups

body:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Jay Bowks wrote:
> Hey Brion,
> Just a question about backup dumps...
> Where are the backups for the languages
> still in the http://**.wikipedia.com domain
> kept? Are they downloadable?

Where they exist, they should be at
http://**.wikipedia.com/tarballs/wiki.tar.gz

I don't have access to that server, so until such time as they are
converted, ask Jason about any problems.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
>Richard wrote: In that case can we do the same for
the Canterbury
> Regional Council
> elections?
> Or all of the God knows how many hundreds of
> electoral districts in India?
> Each of those elections is just as significant to
> the local residents as
> the state of California is to Californians, and just
> as insignificant to
> the rest of the world.

Hm.  I disagree. The California Gubernatorial Recall
Election is a genuine circus -- thus having amusement
value for the entire world.

-S-

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


body:
Well, just a couple notes:

* California's population and economy are comparable to those of major
European countries. California politics affect the California economy,
which affects people elsewhere in the world. (Remember that dot-com
thing?)

* Most of the registered candidates in this circus election are utterly
irrelevant and would not likely ever have interesting articles.

* By all means we should have informative, interesting articles on
regional and local politics.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
on 8/15/03 2:33 PM, Steve Vertigo at utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com wrote:

> Hmm.  I agree. But what about those who are limited in
> terms of their coverage, and yet still are "more
> qualified than most" to be candidates?  Inbetweeners
> if you will.
>
> I guess Im thinking of it more as a sick wikipublicity
> stunt, TBH (apologies) -- I dont care either way, I do
> think there should be a full list of candidates here,
> though.
>
> Thanks, Fred
> -S-

Identifying and publicizing the qualifications of those in the race who are
more qualified than the Terminatior (most of them) is creative work and not
encyclopedic.

Fred


from_name: wiki pedista

body:
Shouldn't this thread be in wikien-l ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Link checking

body:
I am not familiar with the PHP code, so this may be already done:

In the English Wikipedia 9.5% of links (362K out of 3800K total) consist
of references to years between 0 and 2000.

Therefore two lines of code might save quite a bit of link checking.

if link is 3 of 4 digits and numeric value < 2005 then found = true

Perl version would look something like this (PHP will be similar):

if (($language eq "en") && ($link =~ /^\d{3,4}$/) && ($link < 2005))
{ $found = 1 ; }

----

Checking if "|$link|" is found in

"|Race (US Census)|Square mile|Census|Population density|United States
Census Bureau|Asia|Geographic references|Native American|African
American|Hispanic|Latino|United States|"

would again save > 10% of checks (390K)

(assuming all articles are viewed equally often, which of course is not
true)

Erik Zachte


subject: [Wikitech-l] test

body:
This is a test of the upgraded mailman.

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Academic research on Wikis

body:
Oops I posted this on wikitech yesterday instead of here :)

Chuck Smith has graduated with a study on wiki's.

He is also the founder of the flourishing Esperanto Wikipedia and a very
active member.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Chuck_SMITH
http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediisto:Chuck_SMITH

-- Erik Zachte

---------------------

Chuck is travelling and may be out of contact for a bit... I think he
gets back to Rotterdam on the 25th.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] testing

body:
Please disregard.

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [Wikitech-l] test

body:
--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


from_name: Jay Bowks

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiktionary backups

body:
Hey Brion,
Just a question about backup dumps...
Where are the backups for the languages
still in the http://**.wikipedia.com domain
kept? Are they downloadable?

Thanks,
Jay B.
[[User:ILVI]]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiktionary backups
> [,,,] From today, it should be fine.
> As usual, dumps live at: http://download.wikipedia.org/


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] maybe time for a document project,
	sometime in the near future?

body:
To kind of revive the Project Sourceberg idea? Huh?

-S-

__________________________________
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http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Calif recall candidates --

body:
--- Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> I think we ought to list each of the recall
> candidates, and invite their staffs to add to their
> articles.
>
> Crazy? :)
>
>
http://www.sfgate.com/gate/special/pages/2003/recall/
> http://www.georgyforgov.com/index.htm ! ! go geeks!

There is a list of candidates at [[List of 2003
California recall candidates]], but only the "major"
candidates are linked, but it would be so much work
for me to link all of the 130+ candidates by hand.

They won't waste their time on something like
wikipedia. Well, maybe the greens and Huffington will,
but not most of them. How would we contact them all
anyway? And even if we get them there, their articles
will be extremely POV and would make a lot of work for
us fixing it. I know this is a bad attitude, though,
and we should welcome all work. But if we have to
contact all of them, at least spread them out.
LDan

__________________________________
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http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Wouter Vanden Hove

body:
Eric Scharff's PhD-thesis contains a study on using Swiki for creating
course-material. [Chapter 8, I think]
"Open Source Software: A Conceptual Framework for Collaborative Artifact
and Knowledge Construction"
http://www.esig.ucar.edu/scharff/thesis.html

Wouter Vanden Hove
--
http://www.opencursus.org
http://www.open-education.org

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subject: [Wikitech-l] another test.

body:
I have the new mailman installed now, but the administrative interface
is giving me some trouble.  I'm working through it, but It's driving
me crazy.  Basically, the changes that are made through the admin
interface (including moderation tasks) don't take effect.  I'm
checking permissions, but it's not working out just yet.

Really, I just sent this message to make sure that things are still
working in terms of mail delivery.

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

body:
>From http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Staff_lounge

I know that the name "Wikibooks" was thought of and promoted by me, but that
was before we really knew where we wanted to go with this project (become an
educational resource). The word "Wikipedia" is obviously the name of an
encyclopedia and the word "Wiktionary" is obviously the name of a dictionary.
But "Wikibooks" doesn't bring anything specific in mind. So what does
everybody think of the name "Wikiuniversity"? Our aim is to create a huge
educational resource and I think that such a name would be more fitting to
such an endeavor.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


body:
> 4.  There is enough fuel on-site to run for 12 hours (I think),
> and the facility has a "2 hour" contract with local suppliers
> so that they can call and get more fuel delivered within 2 hours.

I saw images on CNN yesterday. I wonder how someone will get through the
walking crowd to deliver fuel :)
That is if phones are still operational and a fuel order can be placed
at all.

1-3 sound good to me. I feel reassured that Wikipedia will be online
when the world's only super power (no pun intended) breaks apart.

Erik Zachte

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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Using HEAP tables

body:
Tim Starling wrote:

>I was just putting a few finishing touches on my simulateneous edit bug fix,
>

Yay!

>and I have two quick questions for anyone willing to answer them:
>
>* Do HEAP tables in MySQL disappear on restart, requiring you to run another
>CREATE TABLE query?
>

My quick test says no. The data all disappears, but the table still
exists and can be used the next time 'round.

>The simultaneous edit bug occurs very rarely (maybe once every few days),
>

Once every few days is SERIOUSLY WAY TO OFTEN. I was worried about it
when it had happened twice ever to my knowledge... If it's happening
regularly, this must be fixed immediately.

>when two users pass the edit conflict check and then simultaneously try to
>update the article. No edit conflict is registered. My thinking went like
>this:
>
>* Can't lock the whole table because it's not worth the performance
>degradation for such a rare error
>
>* Instead use MySQL's user locks to provide synchronisation
>

Why not try wrapping it in a BEGIN / COMMIT block? Transactions are
designed for exactly this kind of thing.

>* But PHP threads die all the time for no good reason, so there is a risk
>that a lock will be left unreleased. Due to persistent connections, the lock
>will stay active indefinitely. Only the DB thread which created the lock can
>release it.
>

Threads may also get stuck in a transaction, but it _should_ be possible
to get out of it by running a 'ROLLBACK' at the start of each run to
cancel anything that may have gotten stuck. (Warning: untested theory!)
Further, nothing has to lock; the first transaction to commit wins, and
any conflicting transactions will get an error when they try to commit,
or just vanish into the ether if the thread dies.

>* If another thread tries to get the lock but times out, it kills the
>offending DB thread
>

Which is now doing something unrelated serving a different web request...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Calif recall candidates --

body:
Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> wrote:I think we ought to list each of the recall
candidates, and invite their staffs to add to their
articles.

Crazy? :)

http://www.sfgate.com/gate/special/pages/2003/recall/
http://www.georgyforgov.com/index.htm ! ! go geeks!

I strongly disagree.  How could they possibly give us NPOV articles?

RickK

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Calif recall candidates --

body:
Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> wrote:I think we ought to list each of the recall
candidates, and invite their staffs to add to their
articles.

Crazy? :)

http://www.sfgate.com/gate/special/pages/2003/recall/
http://www.georgyforgov.com/index.htm ! ! go geeks!

I strongly disagree.  How could they possibly give us NPOV articles?

RickK

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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from_name: Sanford Forte

subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

body:
"Wikiuniversity"? - not bad...not bad at all...I like it

here are some others...have fun...;)
****
Wikiversity

Wikipedagogy

Wikibook

Wikiclassroom

Wiklassroom

Wikurriculum

Wikicurriculum

WikiK-12

Wextbook

Wikidbooks

Wikiacademy

Wikiacademia

Wikademy

Wikitutor

Wikacademy

WikiED

WikedLearning

Wikilearn

Wikiteach

Wikischool

Wikivolumes

Wikicourse

Wikimanuscript

Wikiscript

Wikiware

Wikicourseware

Wikiwisdom

Wikischool

Wikindergarten

Wikielementary

Wikihigh

Wikisage

Wikiprofessor

Wikipubs

Wikiwalkthroughknowledge

Wikidedgelearning

Wikiswonderfulworldof knowledge

Wikisesamestreet

Wikididoodaa - Wikideeay

OK, that's enough, it's getting bizarre...

Sanford

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
To: <textbook-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:16 PM
Subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

> >From http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Staff_lounge
>
> I know that the name "Wikibooks" was thought of and promoted by me, but
that
> was before we really knew where we wanted to go with this project (become
an
> educational resource). The word "Wikipedia" is obviously the name of an
> encyclopedia and the word "Wiktionary" is obviously the name of a
dictionary.
> But "Wikibooks" doesn't bring anything specific in mind. So what does
> everybody think of the name "Wikiuniversity"? Our aim is to create a huge
> educational resource and I think that such a name would be more fitting to
> such an endeavor.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

body:
more...

WikiU

Wikollege

Wikicollege

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
To: <textbook-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:16 PM
Subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

> >From http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Staff_lounge
>
> I know that the name "Wikibooks" was thought of and promoted by me, but
that
> was before we really knew where we wanted to go with this project (become
an
> educational resource). The word "Wikipedia" is obviously the name of an
> encyclopedia and the word "Wiktionary" is obviously the name of a
dictionary.
> But "Wikibooks" doesn't bring anything specific in mind. So what does
> everybody think of the name "Wikiuniversity"? Our aim is to create a huge
> educational resource and I think that such a name would be more fitting to
> such an endeavor.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Using HEAP tables

references:
<bhkboe$ked$1@sea.gmane.org> <3F3DBA09.10604@pobox.com>
	<bhkiss$qm0$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Tim Starling wrote:

>>Why not try wrapping it in a BEGIN / COMMIT block? Transactions are
>>designed for exactly this kind of thing.
>>
>>
>
>Oh, I thought we were still using MyISAM tables. Obviously not. Plus I was
>misled by the statement in the MySQL manual that you can only do full-text
>search with MyISAM tables. Do any of the languages still do it that way?
>
The search index fields have been in a separate table for a long time
specifically so we can use innodb tables for the rest. Most of the
smaller languages haven't actually been converted, but English and
German are at least mostly on innodb.

>Just thinking about it... I don't think transactions will work anyway. The
>problem here is delaying SELECT statements until a transaction is complete,
>and transactions don't do that. Between the BEGIN statement, and the time
>when the COMMIT finally acquires the locks it needs, AFAIK the problem still
>occurs.
>
>I guess if we use transactions, the edit will be saved in the old table
>properly, it just won't trigger an edit conflict. It'll look like user 2
>reverted user 1's work. I think I'll stick with my way for now, assuming it
>works.
>

Hmm... Here's how the bug works now:

THREAD A                   THREAD B
 SELECT data from cur       SELECT data from cur
 check for edit conflict    check for edit conflict
 UPDATE cur with new data
                            UPDATE cur with new data
                            [overwriting what A just did]
 INSERT prev data to old
 [the previous one, not B's]
                            INSERT prev data to old
                            [second copy of the previous,
                             not A's]

with the result that neither thread detects an edit conflict, old
contains two copies of the previous version, and A's edit is gone.

Here's how it would work with transactions if I understand it correctly:

THREAD A                   THREAD B
 BEGIN                      BEGIN
 SELECT data from cur       SELECT data from cur
 check for edit conflict    check for edit conflict
 UPDATE cur with new data   UPDATE cur with new data
 [not saved yet]            [not saved yet]
 INSERT prev data to old    INSERT prev data to old
 [still not saved yet]      [still not saved yet]
 COMMIT
 [successfully saves edit]
                            COMMIT
                            [transaction is rejected,
                             mysql reports an auto rollback]
                            we know something's wrong
                            start over:
                            SELECT data from cur
                            check for edit conflict
                            display edit conflict screen

with the result that A's edit is saved intact and B can be shown an edit
conflict screen.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject:
[Wikitech-l] http://**.wikipedia.com/tarballs/wiki.tar.gz (Not
	available) ???

body:
Hey, Jason,
Brion suggested I ask you the question...

Where are the backups for the languages
still in the http://**.wikipedia.com domain
kept? Are they downloadable?

Thanks in advance for info you can
send my way...
w/ regards,
Jay B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brion Vibber" <vibber at sal-sun012.usc.edu>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wiktionary backups

> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Jay Bowks wrote:
> > Hey Brion,
> > Just a question about backup dumps...
> > Where are the backups for the languages
> > still in the http://**.wikipedia.com domain
> > kept? Are they downloadable?
>
> Where they exist, they should be at
> http://**.wikipedia.com/tarballs/wiki.tar.gz
>
> I don't have access to that server, so until such time as they are
> converted, ask Jason about any problems.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>
To: "Wikipedia Technical Mailing List" <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:20 PM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] test

> This is a test of the upgraded mailman.
>
> --
> "Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Calif recall candidates --

body:
Rick wrote:

> Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>     I think we ought to list each of the recall
>     candidates, and invite their staffs to add to their
>     articles.
>
>     Crazy? :)
>
>     http://www.sfgate.com/gate/special/pages/2003/recall/
>     http://www.georgyforgov.com/index.htm ! ! go geeks!
>
>  I strongly disagree.  How could they possibly give us NPOV articles?
>
The NPOV requirement does not make them inelligible as subjets.
 Obviously, if any of the 135 dodn't have a POV he or she would not be
running for office. :-)   NPOV editing involves fairly representing what
each of these candidates is about.  After saying this is whate the
candidate stands for, NPOV does not required that we have to dig up the
opposing point of view.

Ec


subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

body:
Sanford Forte wrote:
>"Wikiuniversity"? - not bad...not bad at all...I like it
>
>here are some others...have fun...;)
>****
>Wikiversity
>....

Wikiversity - now why the hell didn't I think of that? :-)

More discussion on:
http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Staff_lounge#Wikiuniversity

It looks like WikiU is more comprehensive than what we want to do with the
Wikibooks project, though. But, as stated on the Staff lounge, Wikibooks
could be the bookstore/library of the proposed Wikiversity concept (a
community built, comprehensive, interactive e-learning project). I kinda like
that idea.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

body:
one more..

Wik-12

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
To: <textbook-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:03 AM
Subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

> Sanford Forte wrote:
> >"Wikiuniversity"? - not bad...not bad at all...I like it
> >
> >here are some others...have fun...;)
> >****
> >Wikiversity
> >....
>
> Wikiversity - now why the hell didn't I think of that? :-)
>
> More discussion on:
> http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Staff_lounge#Wikiuniversity
>
> It looks like WikiU is more comprehensive than what we want to do with the
> Wikibooks project, though. But, as stated on the Staff lounge, Wikibooks
> could be the bookstore/library of the proposed Wikiversity concept (a
> community built, comprehensive, interactive e-learning project). I kinda
like
> that idea.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] access counter

body:
Hello. I have some question on Wikipedia stats. Sorry if this question was
already answered elsewhere.

In japanese wikipedia, access counter is not disabled. Many took notice
that, since around the beginning of July, the increase of page view count
has slowed down quite a bit. We figured, or guessed, that it has to do with
"caching" which was introduced around that time. But we don't know what it
is counting now, or what it was counting before. For example, daily views of
Main page and "Wikipedia:welcome, newcomers" become something like 1/5 to
1/10.

Is it just now counting the number of log-in users who access the page, as
opposed to all access including those by non-logged on users?

Those stats would help wikipedians as well as outsiders (occasionally
including journalists) to understand the activity level of wikipedia, if
roughly. I would appreciate if someone could help on this.

regards,

Tomos

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from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [WikiEN-l] Calif recall candidates --

body:
At 12:48 AM 8/16/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Rick wrote:
>
>>Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>     I think we ought to list each of the recall
>>     candidates, and invite their staffs to add to their
>>     articles.
>>
>>     Crazy? :)
>>
>>     http://www.sfgate.com/gate/special/pages/2003/recall/
>>     http://www.georgyforgov.com/index.htm ! ! go geeks!
>>
>>  I strongly disagree.  How could they possibly give us NPOV articles?
>The NPOV requirement does not make them inelligible as subjets. Obviously,
>if any of the 135 dodn't have a POV he or she would not be running for
>office. :-)   NPOV editing involves fairly representing what each of these
>candidates is about.  After saying this is whate the candidate stands for,
>NPOV does not required that we have to dig up the opposing point of view.

Also, I suspect that a lot of them would provide NPOV autobiographical
information: "Jo Candidate was born in $city on $date, educated at
$college, and sold ice cream door-to-door before becoming a $professional."

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: maybe time for a document project,
	sometime in the near future?

body:
Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> writes:

> To kind of revive the Project Sourceberg idea? Huh?

What is wrong with Project Gutenberg?  No need to duplicate all and
everything ;)

--
                                                         |      ,__o
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |    _-\_<,
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home)               |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] WikiU and wikibooks

body:
I think that WikiU sounds great because:

* Communicates immediately what the site is about
* Simple and easy to remember for newbies
* Should be usable in other languages (at least its real
short even if the letter "U" means nothing in a language)

And it makes sense to me to include WikiBooks as a
subdomain of this site. ( books.wikiu.org ?)

The fact that universities are only one part of the
learning structure that includes notably K-12 should not be
a big problem. Universities represent the highest end of
the chain. (Maybe we could have subdomains for different
levels of school if that is what users demand.)

Question: will non fiction but non-textbook books be hosted
here ?

-Karl

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from_name: Richard Grevers

body:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:33:12 -0700 (PDT), Steve Vertigo
<utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> gave utterance to the following:

> Hmm.  I agree. But what about those who are limited in
> terms of their coverage, and yet still are "more
> qualified than most" to be candidates?  Inbetweeners
> if you will.
>
> I guess Im thinking of it more as a sick wikipublicity
> stunt, TBH (apologies) -- I dont care either way, I do
> think there should be a full list of candidates here,
> though.
>
In that case can we do the same for the Canterbury Regional Council
elections?
Or all of the God knows how many hundreds of electoral districts in India?
Each of those elections is just as significant to the local residents as
the state of California is to Californians, and just as insignificant to
the rest of the world.
--
Richard Grevers
I'm not lost - I'm directionally challenged


subject: [WikiEN-l] Calif recall candidates --

body:
Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org> wrote:At 12:48 AM 8/16/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Rick wrote:
>
>>Steve Vertigo wrote:
>>
>> I think we ought to list each of the recall
>> candidates, and invite their staffs to add to their
>> articles.
>>
>> Crazy? :)
>>
>> http://www.sfgate.com/gate/special/pages/2003/recall/
>> http://www.georgyforgov.com/index.htm ! ! go geeks!
>>
>> I strongly disagree. How could they possibly give us NPOV articles?
>The NPOV requirement does not make them inelligible as subjets. Obviously,
>if any of the 135 dodn't have a POV he or she would not be running for
>office. :-) NPOV editing involves fairly representing what each of these
>candidates is about. After saying this is whate the candidate stands for,
>NPOV does not required that we have to dig up the opposing point of view.

Also, I suspect that a lot of them would provide NPOV autobiographical
information: "Jo Candidate was born in $city on $date, educated at
$college, and sold ice cream door-to-door before becoming a $professional."

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

I never said that they couldn't be NPOV articles, merely that they or their campaign staffs could not give us NPOV.

RickK

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subject: [Textbook-l] WikiU and wikibooks

body:
--- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think that WikiU sounds great because:
>
> * Communicates immediately what the site is about
> * Simple and easy to remember for newbies
> * Should be usable in other languages (at least its
> real
> short even if the letter "U" means nothing in a
> language)
>
> And it makes sense to me to include WikiBooks as a
> subdomain of this site. ( books.wikiu.org ?)
>
> The fact that universities are only one part of the
> learning structure that includes notably K-12 should
> not be
> a big problem. Universities represent the highest
> end of
> the chain. (Maybe we could have subdomains for
> different
> levels of school if that is what users demand.)
>
> Question: will non fiction but non-textbook books be
> hosted
> here ?
>
> -Karl

You mean instead of at Wikibooks?
LDan

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subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

body:
--- Tomasz Wegrzanowski <taw at users.sourceforge.net>
wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:26:56PM -0700, Sanford
> Forte wrote:
> > "Wikiuniversity"? - not bad...not bad at all...I
> like it
> >
> > here are some others...have fun...;)
> > ****
> [list cut]
>
> Could we make it a policy not to use names that are
> hard
> to understand and pronounce in anything but English
> ?
> Wikipedia was good, Wiktionary was bad,
> Wikiuniversity is
> not so bad except for final -ty, most of names on
> this list
> are horrible.

It's not that easy to pronounce in one word in English
either. I pronounce it either like weakuniversity or
wiki university, but I can't really make it one word
because it just doesn't fit together. WikiU seems to
work for me.
LDan

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] encyclopedia

body:
on 8/16/03 10:05 AM, Merritt L. Perkins at mlperkins3 at juno.com wrote:

> Do you agree with my ideas?

Not exactly, You threw out quite a few....

Fred


subject: [Wikipedia-l] encyclopedia

body:
on 8/16/03 10:05 AM, Merritt L. Perkins at mlperkins3 at juno.com wrote:

> Is there danger that information in encyclopedia articles would be used
> by terrorists?

Yes. Possibly even by the government of the United States.

Fred


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikitech-l] New Mailman :-(

body:
I have now noticed, when i approved a posting, that there is a new version
new in use of mailman.

It is good there a update of mailman but why are the listadmins not
informed about this? Or a least a warning on Wikitech-l?

I have put a lot of work in modifying the look of the listpages so the
where not so ugly. Now this is al gone.

--
Contact: walter AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


subject: [Wikipedia-l] encyclopedia

body:
What is an encyclopedia? I expect an encyclopedia to be a reference work
where I can quickly find information on many subjects. The information
may be more or less extensive and more or less accurate.
How would I use an encyclopedia? I would expect to use it to look up
information that I would use in my activities or for recreational
purposes.
The longer our mind is occupied with a given subject the less productive
we become. We get bored. If we change to another activity for a while our
mind?s productivity will gradually recover.
The encyclopedia may tell how lady GodGifu rode naked through the streets
of Coventry more than 1000 years ago, but there may only be records that
such a person existed and the ride may only be legend. We would be
interested in this legend only for recreational reasons. We have no need
or use for the information.
We may be interested in medical information because it may help us care
for health.
Is there danger that information in encyclopedia articles would be used
by terrorists?
We can have articles about explosives and tell how to make nitroglycerin
or other explosives. Of course the articles would not tell where or how
to buy the ingredients.
How do people think? Often spoken words bring to mind a picture. Years
ago I tried an experiment to find out how different people think. I would
say is three words, "dog chase cat" and then ask the person to describe
the dog. Describe the cat. What else do you see?
A schoolgirl in England said that the dog was an English sheep dog
standing on its hind feet with its front feet up against a tree. The cat
was out of sight up the tree.
Where the tree come from? It wasn?t mentioned in those three words and
wasn?t necessary.
Writing is tricky business. The impression in the mind of the reader may
be quite different from what you intend to convey.
Different readers may interpret what you write in different ways
depending on their past experiences. A person may be able to visualize a
distance stated in feet but not in meters.
Readers may not know the meaning of many unfamiliar terms.
After you write something put away for a while. When you come back to it
later you?ll notice things that you overlooked before.
Now that you are satisfied with it, set it aside and start over new from
the beginning.
When you get tired of working on it either trash it or send it.
Do you agree with my ideas?
Merritt L. Perkins


subject: [Wikipedia-l] encyclopedia

body:
I disagree with Tarquin's determination that this is off-topic.  It is
healthy for a project such as this to periodically discuss the nature of
an encyclopedia.  Even if no concrete action arises from one particular
discussion, it still helps in maintaining focus.

Merritt L. Perkins wrote:

>What is an encyclopedia? I expect an encyclopedia to be a reference work
>where I can quickly find information on many subjects. The information
>may be more or less extensive and more or less accurate.
>How would I use an encyclopedia? I would expect to use it to look up
>information that I would use in my activities or for recreational
>purposes.
>
An accurate observation that applies to ANY encyclopedia.  Encyclopedias
are good initial sources of information and broad perspective on a
subject.  They are certainly not primary sources.  A researcher with a
serious interest in an article will want to go further.  Some of our
articles have links to outside sources, but where those links have not
been written it is to be hoped that the reader will have acquired enough
basic vocabulary to bootstrap his research.

>The longer our mind is occupied with a given subject the less productive
>we become. We get bored. If we change to another activity for a while our
>minds productivity will gradually recover.
>
This is more true than many would have us believe.  The dilemma is faced
by every genius that writes for Wikipedia.  In extreme cases of boredom
thay become our most prominent vandals.  It may also be the key to why
Wikipedia works so well.

Over the years I have observed that professionals in many fields adopt a
view of that profession that has been narrowed by their educational and
formative experience.  The professions demand conformity.  Alternatives
that require unapproved solutions are seriously discouraged,... more
seriously when those alternatives work.  The requirement that someone be
certified (or some word of similar effect) in his profession may
ostensibly be to protect the public from fraud and incompetence, but the
effect is really to enforce narrow thinking and to protect the
privileges of the profession.  Fraudulent or otherwise criminal
professionals continue to exist; incompetence is encouraged through
rule-bound practice.

I have on numerous occasions embarked on a Wikipedia project that I
eventually left incomplete.  Most of these remain on my personal
unpublished to-do list, and I hope to get back to them at some point in
the future.  The subject areas involved are very broad indeed.  This
kind of behaviour would be totally unacceptable in an ordinary work
environment.  It would get me fired.

The remarkable thing is that this kind of behaviour is the norm on
Wikipedia, even as it accepts that there are others with a compulsion to
bring an article to some relatively complete state.  What's more amazing
is that the two co-exist quite well with a complementarity that is
missing in other environments.

This paradigm has implications beyond Wikimedia.  We have harnessed the
power of boredom.

>The encyclopedia may tell how lady GodGifu rode naked through the streets
>of Coventry more than 1000 years ago, but there may only be records that
>such a person existed and the ride may only be legend. We would be
>interested in this legend only for recreational reasons. We have no need
>or use for the information.
>
This sounds like an argument against including such material, despite
earlier contradictory views.

>We may be interested in medical information because it may help us care
>for health.
>
Caveat emptor!

>Is there danger that information in encyclopedia articles would be used
>by terrorists?
>We can have articles about explosives and tell how to make nitroglycerin
>or other explosives. Of course the articles would not tell where or how
>to buy the ingredients.
>
"Danger" is there in '''everything''' we say, not just in the obvious
subjects.  What varies most is the responsibility that people accept for
what happens in their own lives, and the extraordinary lengths to which
they will go to ensure that their security is protected by restricting
the freedom of others.  The smart terrorist will always be able to think
outside the box.  If his plans involve the use of explosives, he'll
either find a way to get them or change his plans to suit the
circumstances.  If his plans involve the use of sharp objects where
knives are forbidden, he can sharpen the edge of a plastic credit card.
 (It's not as though he needs something made of fine steel that will
keep its edge for many years. ;-) )

>Writing is tricky business. The impression in the mind of the reader may
>be quite different from what you intend to convey.
>Different readers may interpret what you write in different ways
>depending on their past experiences.
>
A feature of good fiction is that it is very adaptable to the reader's
ability to visualize or fantasize

>Readers may not know the meaning of many unfamiliar terms.
>
A reasonable proportion can elevate the reader's perspectives.  If there
are too many the work will remain unread.

>After you write something put away for a while. When you come back to it
>later youll notice things that you overlooked before.
>Now that you are satisfied with it, set it aside and start over new from
>the beginning.
>When you get tired of working on it either trash it or send it.
>
This laborious process may be essential in a "normal" writing
environment.  Here, where the individual does not "own" the writing
(copyright issues aside) we can be confident that there will always be
someon else to find something wrong.

>Do you agree with my ideas?
>
Some

Eclecticology


from_name: limholt at excite.com

subject: [Textbook-l] WikiU and wikibooks

body:
> On Sat 08/16, Karl Wick < karlwick at yahoo.com > wrote:

> I think that WikiU sounds great...

I agree - my personal choice is Wikiversity or WikiU for short.

> ...universities are only one part...K-12...

I like another proposed name here, the Wikademy

> Will non fiction but non-textbook books be hosted here?

I second the point made, we shouldn't duplicate Project Gutenberg.
Annoted Works and Criticis or outlines are probably good. New collaborative fiction is a whole other question, and probably doesn'y fit here.

Regards, Lou I

_______________________________________________
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from_name: Steve Vertigo

body:
Its not under the Wikimedia trademark thats what.
Plust you have to scroll through twenty pages of
Gutenberg indicia just to start reading your file.
And there  is no direct linking to files... and....

-S-

--- Karl Eichwalder <ke at gnu.franken.de> wrote:
> Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com>
> writes:
>
> > To kind of revive the Project Sourceberg idea?
> Huh?
>
> What is wrong with Project Gutenberg?  No need to
> duplicate all and
> everything ;)
>
> --
>
>     |      ,__o
> http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/
>     |    _-\_<,
> ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home)
>     |   (*)/'(*)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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subject: [Wikitech-l] access counter

body:
Tomos at Wikipedia wrote:

> Is it just now counting the number of log-in users who access the
> page, as opposed to all access including those by non-logged on users?

It counts page views that are not cache hits.

So, if you're logged in, and you reload the page but it hasn't changed
and the software tells you to use your cached copy, it doesn't update
the counter.

If you're not logged in, and the page hasn't changed since last a
non-logged-in-user loaded it, the software sends you a precached copy,
and it doesn't update the counter.

This could probably be altered in some way.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Calif recall candidates --

body:
> I never said that they couldn't be NPOV articles,
> merely that they or their campaign staffs could not
> give us NPOV.
>
> RickK

Well, I have to ask "Is what you just said NPOV?"
arent you making some assumptions?  On the whole I
think my idea to go out and invite candidate hacks to
fill up the wiki is not a good idea. At least not all
at once, like Daniel said. On the other hand, Im not
sure things would get out of hand.  Considering that
information would be provided in an invite email about
the general way things go on here -- NPOV and such, I
dont think that too many candidates will be eager to
smudge their good name by becoming vandals on a well
known project site.

That said, I suppose we can make honest value
judgements about who and who does not have a "good
name" to begin with. :) Maybe setting up a separate
wikipedia for the recall and such would be nice --
kinda a 911 trick. Eh?

-S-

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from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Using HEAP tables

body:
I was just putting a few finishing touches on my simulateneous edit bug fix,
and I have two quick questions for anyone willing to answer them:

* Do HEAP tables in MySQL disappear on restart, requiring you to run another
CREATE TABLE query?
* If yes, would it be better to grant CREATE TABLE permissions to enuser and
create it on first use, or should something be put in a startup script?

Now some of you may be interested in what I'm doing mucking around with HEAP
tables, so I attached a source file and I will now explain my rationale.

The simultaneous edit bug occurs very rarely (maybe once every few days),
when two users pass the edit conflict check and then simultaneously try to
update the article. No edit conflict is registered. My thinking went like
this:

* Can't lock the whole table because it's not worth the performance
degradation for such a rare error
* Instead use MySQL's user locks to provide synchronisation
* But PHP threads die all the time for no good reason, so there is a risk
that a lock will be left unreleased. Due to persistent connections, the lock
will stay active indefinitely. Only the DB thread which created the lock can
release it.
* Waiting for a timeout and then pressing on regardless is possible but not
ideal
* Instead, when a PHP thread gets a lock, it registers its DB thread ID in a
HEAP table.
* If another thread tries to get the lock but times out, it kills the
offending DB thread

Using shared memory or something like that would be faster, it's just not
scalable.

-- Tim Starling.

begin 666 DatabaseFunctions.php
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`
end


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Textbook-l] Wikiuniversity

body:
On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:26:56PM -0700, Sanford Forte wrote:
> "Wikiuniversity"? - not bad...not bad at all...I like it
>
> here are some others...have fun...;)
> ****
[list cut]

Could we make it a policy not to use names that are hard
to understand and pronounce in anything but English ?
Wikipedia was good, Wiktionary was bad, Wikiuniversity is
not so bad except for final -ty, most of names on this list
are horrible.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] encyclopedia

body:
From: "Merritt L. Perkins" <mlperkins3 at juno.com>
> [...] After you write something put away for a while. When you come back
to it
> later you'll notice things that you overlooked before.
> Now that you are satisfied with it, set it aside and start over new from
> the beginning. [...]

Actually, Merritt,
In Wikipedia if I go back to an article
I usually noticed that someone added
something and I start thinking how
interesting it is and howmuch fun it
can be to be collaborating like this.
Other times I'm flabbergasted and
wonder why on earth would someone
say this or that only to realize I was
the one that said it that way and just
forgot about it... ;-)

Since,
Jay B.
[[User:ILVI]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Using HEAP tables

body:
Brion said:

> >The simultaneous edit bug occurs very rarely (maybe once every few days),
> >
>
> Once every few days is SERIOUSLY WAY TO OFTEN. I was worried about it
> when it had happened twice ever to my knowledge... If it's happening
> regularly, this must be fixed immediately.

I just made that figure up, based on Eloquence saying it's his "favorite
frequently asked question" and the vague idea that the problem would often
go unreported. If we knew how big the window was we could estimate the
frequency of occurrence.

> Why not try wrapping it in a BEGIN / COMMIT block? Transactions are
> designed for exactly this kind of thing.

Oh, I thought we were still using MyISAM tables. Obviously not. Plus I was
misled by the statement in the MySQL manual that you can only do full-text
search with MyISAM tables. Do any of the languages still do it that way?

Just thinking about it... I don't think transactions will work anyway. The
problem here is delaying SELECT statements until a transaction is complete,
and transactions don't do that. Between the BEGIN statement, and the time
when the COMMIT finally acquires the locks it needs, AFAIK the problem still
occurs.

I guess if we use transactions, the edit will be saved in the old table
properly, it just won't trigger an edit conflict. It'll look like user 2
reverted user 1's work. I think I'll stick with my way for now, assuming it
works.

-- Tim Starling <tstarlingphysicsunimelbeduau>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Using HEAP tables

body:
Sorry, I missed this part of your message:

> Threads may also get stuck in a transaction, but it _should_ be possible
> to get out of it by running a 'ROLLBACK' at the start of each run to
> cancel anything that may have gotten stuck. (Warning: untested theory!)
> Further, nothing has to lock; the first transaction to commit wins, and
> any conflicting transactions will get an error when they try to commit,
> or just vanish into the ether if the thread dies.

I think I should read up on this again. BTW, BEGIN will commit any active
transactions.

> >* If another thread tries to get the lock but times out, it kills the
> >offending DB thread
> >
>
> Which is now doing something unrelated serving a different web request...

Good point. The script could check the HEAP table when it first acquires the
connection, but it may be better to do it your way.

-- Tim Starling <tstarlingphysicsunimelbeduau>


body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>What is wrong with Project Gutenberg?  No need to
>duplicate all and everything ;)

Sorry, but some people don't care to read plain text with page after page of
copyright and disclaimer info in front of it.

Wikibooks plans to host many public domain texts; basically anything in the
public domain you would expect to buy in a college bookstore or find in a
university library. But our focus is on adding value to those texts by
wikifying terms to point to Wikipedia articles and also adding annotation in
the "margin" (a feature that is being worked on for Wikibooks).

--- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Small change in "print page" template needed

body:
OK, its been nearly a month and so far I've been ignored. This is important;
we /are not/ following the terms of our own license and this needs to be
fixed ASAP.

See:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-July/005119.html

I've also posted a feature request on Sourceforge, but that too has been
ignored.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] encyclopedia

body:
Merritt L. Perkins wrote:

>How would I use an encyclopedia? I would expect to use it to look up
>information that I would use in my activities or for recreational
>purposes.
>
I'm going to bang the "OFF TOPIC" gong, but before i do that, I'll say
that some people consider reading articles in an encyclopedia a
recreational activity in itself. :)

*GONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG*


subject: [Wikipedia-l] encyclopedia

body:
On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 12:05:46PM -0400, Merritt L. Perkins wrote:
[cut]
> Is there danger that information in encyclopedia articles would be used
> by terrorists?
[cut]
> Do you agree with my ideas?

No at all.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Votes for deletion

body:
[[Wikipedia:Deletion policy]] seems to have sprouted the following language:  "

When you list a page on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion that you think will be listed for the entire 7 days -- i.e., a page that won't be deleted immediately -- please place the following notice above the page's content:

   ''This page has been listed on [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion]]. Please see that page for justifications and discussion.'' ".
And [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion]] now says:

"NOTE: Always indicate on the listed page itself that it is here. See Wikipedia:Deletion_policy#Listed_for_deletion_notice. If this is not done, then the page will not be deleted. "

Now, I can't say that I DISAGREE with this policy (although I think that having to put this notice on every page to be deleted is a tad excessive), but when and where was this policy discussed?  Was it ONE PERSON who made the decision, UNILATERALLY, that nothing would be deleted unless his/her pet boilerplate was put onto the page in question?

Such new policies need to be discussed, not just thrown out as a fait accompli.  Other sysops may just go ahead and delete pages without the boilerplate, and have the right to do so, since this "policy" is only one person's decision, and not the agreement of the users of Wikipedia as a whole.

RickK

---------------------------------
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:

>Hmm.  I agree. But what about those who are limited in
>terms of their coverage, and yet still are "more
>qualified than most" to be candidates?  Inbetweeners
>if you will.
>
>I guess Im thinking of it more as a sick wikipublicity
>stunt, TBH (apologies) -- I dont care either way, I do
>think there should be a full list of candidates here,
>though.
>
>Thanks, Fred
>-S-
>
I have no problem with listing all 135.  The rest of us can have fun at
California's expense. :-)   It may be difficult to find enough material
to create a biographical blurb or comment about every one of them.  I
like the idea that there is at least one grown-up among them;  Mary
"Mary Carey" Cook lists herself as an adult film actress. ;-)   Will she
do as well as the sumo wrestler?

On a slightly more serious vein, how can an appropriate branch of
Wikimedia present a truly independent view of any election anywhere in
the world?

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] software on Wiktionary upgraded

body:
Okay, Wiktionary should now be back in line with the version of the
software running on the other wikis.

And, hopefully, not too broken. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] software on Wiktionary upgraded


subject: [WikiEN-l] Votes for deletion

body:
Rick wrote:
>Now, I can't say that I DISAGREE with this policy
>(although I think that having to put this notice on
>every page to be deleted is a tad excessive), but
>when and where was this policy discussed?  Was
>it ONE PERSON who made the decision,
>UNILATERALLY, that nothing would be deleted
>unless his/her pet boilerplate was put onto the
>page in question?
>
>Such new policies need to be discussed, not just
>thrown out as a fait accompli.  Other sysops may
>just go ahead and delete pages without the
>boilerplate, and have the right to do so, since this
>"policy" is only one person's decision, and not the
>agreement of the users of Wikipedia as a whole.

For Gods sake, this is the FOURTH place you have posted the SAME question!
Instead of duplicating four different threads, how about we continue this on
the relevant talk page where some discussion has already taken place:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Votes_for_deletion

Not placing the notice a page which is being considered for deletion and then
deleting it, is denying the author (most often a newbie) due process. The
Admin that wrote this was simply clarifying an implied policy by naturally
extending our written policies of having an open and transparent process.

A notice is a no-brainer in light of this and should not be surprising. I was
simply informing people of this policy when they were not following it. In
retrospect the Admin who wrote this should have advertised the change a bit
to see if anybody disagreed.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> OK, its been nearly a month and so far I've been ignored. This is important;
> we /are not/ following the terms of our own license and this needs to be
> fixed ASAP.

Fixed.

'Printable mode' really should be replaced with a style sheet, though.
It'd save a lot of trouble in the code, and people could just hit
"print" from the regular page and get decent-looking output.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Dan, I think that article is fine -- I mean youre
right -- There should be some FDL on a print, but the
important thing should be branding.  Wikipedia the
free encyclopedia in a single article case should be
fine -- anyone wanting to come back to here to get
some more will run into FDL.

First bring them to the church--they lay God on them.
-S-

--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> OK, its been nearly a month and so far I've been
> ignored. This is important;
> we /are not/ following the terms of our own license
> and this needs to be
> fixed ASAP.
>
> See:
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-July/005119.html
>
> I've also posted a feature request on Sourceforge,
> but that too has been
> ignored.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Votes for deletion

body:
Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:Rick wrote:
>Now, I can't say that I DISAGREE with this policy
>(although I think that having to put this notice on
>every page to be deleted is a tad excessive), but
>when and where was this policy discussed? Was
>it ONE PERSON who made the decision,
>UNILATERALLY, that nothing would be deleted
>unless his/her pet boilerplate was put onto the
>page in question?
>
>Such new policies need to be discussed, not just
>thrown out as a fait accompli. Other sysops may
>just go ahead and delete pages without the
>boilerplate, and have the right to do so, since this
>"policy" is only one person's decision, and not the
>agreement of the users of Wikipedia as a whole.

For Gods sake, this is the FOURTH place you have posted the SAME question!
Instead of duplicating four different threads, how about we continue this on
the relevant talk page where some discussion has already taken place:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Votes_for_deletion

Not placing the notice a page which is being considered for deletion and then
deleting it, is denying the author (most often a newbie) due process. The
Admin that wrote this was simply clarifying an implied policy by naturally
extending our written policies of having an open and transparent process.

A notice is a no-brainer in light of this and should not be surprising. I was
simply informing people of this policy when they were not following it. In
retrospect the Admin who wrote this should have advertised the change a bit
to see if anybody disagreed.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Ugh.  I wish I could delete part of that above, but Yahoo treats the thing as a whole and won't let me cut out the parts I don't want to discuss.

Anyway, the reason why I keep trying to bring this up is because this is a change in policy that was never discussed.  Why is it so wrong to make sure that everyone knows that this policy was made by one person without input from anyone else?

RickK

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subject: [WikiEN-l] User:Saddam Hussein

body:
What is the sense of other people about not only the name of Saddam Hussein as a User name, but the fact that the User has copied the entire content of the [[Saddam Hussein]] article to his/her User page?

RickK

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