subject:
[Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org (redirecting from
	www.wikipedia.org)

body:
On ?a?, 2003-01-23 at 07:55, Florian Schnadt wrote:
> Redirecting gives at least two problems:
>
> 1) small language wikis
>
> Redirecting to wikis without enough project ("meta") information or very few
> articles might be a bad idea. There could be a link to an appropriate page on en
> or meta and some explanation in a prominent place (at the top :) ) until this
> changes.

True.

> 2) outside links
>
> Redirecting will break links if my browser doesn't use english language setting. A
> somewhat dirty fix might be to check if this is an outside link and only redirect
> if the page exists in the language wikipedia. Thus my german language setting will
> take me to the english chemistry article if I click a link outside of
> wikipedia.org (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemistry) but take me to the german
> page on most (at least some ;) ) names, cities etc.

As has been promised a number of times before, current canonical-form
links to articles* will *never* be broken, to the best of our ability.
(The main exceptions being if the project somehow loses control of the
domain name, or if the present URI system is no longer used a few
decades from now and no software supports it anymore. Or for
_particular_ pages, if it is deleted completely or had a technically
misformed title that must be removed instead of just redirected to avoid
breaking things.)

* For English wikipedia, this means:
 http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Some_title
and the older:
 http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Some_title
will always continue to work, even if we change the canonical format
they will redirect to the current location. (If a page is renamed on the
wiki, we have redirects within the wiki system to get you there, even if
you have an outdated link, bookmark, search engine query, or printed
citation.) Other languages' old-form canonical links should be preserved
as well; where they are not, this is an error and should be reported so
we can correct it.

Proposed browser-sniffing redirection for languages would *only* be for
direct access to http://www.wikipedia.org/ or http://wikipedia.org/ with
no page name specfied, *never* within the wiki.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] 142.177.xxx.xxx (aka 24) is at it again

body:
WOAH!
Jonathan, WHAT are you talking about?  Mav is one of the least contentious people around here!  Be nice?  Mav is always nice, except when there are times when it's wrong to be nice.  Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
Zoe
 Jonathan Walther <krooger at debian.org> wrote:On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 02:38:39PM -0800, Daniel Mayer wrote:
>>Murder of vast numbers of people who believe as you
>>do becomes justified, when you use control of a
>>technology that they don't have, to censor their
>>views on what you are doing, and make it impossible
>>for them to stop you any other way.
>
>I may have been wrong in banning the IP from en.wiki
>but I don't appreciate thinly veiled threats on my
>life.

That wasn't a thinly veiled threat on your life. That was a wakeup
call. Try being nice, and let other people have their day in the sun
too. By the way, what did he mean by "people who believe as you do"?
Are you a Republican?

>Can we ban all this users IPs and perhaps call the
>cops?

That is an extreme, and unwarranted reaction.

Jonathan

--
Geek House Productions, Ltd.

Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone: 604-435-1205
Email: djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC V5R2W2
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from_name: Axel Boldt

body:
--- Jonathan Walther <krooger at debian.org> wrote:

> That wasn't a thinly veiled threat on your life.  That was a wakeup
> call.  Try being nice, and let other people have their day in the sun
> too.

Jonathan, have you recently used an IP number in the 142.177 range?
No offense, just checking.

Axel

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


from_name: Jonathan Walther

body:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 08:14:31PM -0800, Axel Boldt wrote:
>> That wasn't a thinly veiled threat on your life.  That was a wakeup
>> call.  Try being nice, and let other people have their day in the sun
>> too.
>
>Jonathan, have you recently used an IP number in the 142.177 range?
>No offense, just checking.

I am still deeply offended and hurt by the anti-goy bigotry and
fanaticism of people like RK and his pals.  I am not 142, but I can
easily understand why he would get pissed off at the severe Zionist bias
that has pervaded the Wikipedia.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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from_name: koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com

body:
Jonathan wrote:
>That wasn't a thinly veiled threat on your life.  That was a wakeup
>call.  Try being nice, and let other people have their day in the sun
>too.  By the way, what did he mean by "people who believe as you do"?
>Are you a Republican?
>
>>Can we ban all this users IPs and perhaps call the
>>cops?
>
>That is an extreme, and unwarranted reaction.

If ill manners justify physical threats, then some of us are past due
for a duel.

kq


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] [Fwd: Major bug fixed in InnoDB optimizer in ... WHERE col > x]

body:
Just saw this run by on the MySQL mailing list. Might help us?

(Also, I've enabled the 'slow query log' on the mysql server; I'll have
a look at the results come tomorrow...)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-----Forwarded Message-----

From: Heikki Tuuri <Heikki.Tuuri--innodb.com>
To: mysql--lists.mysql.com, bugs--lists.mysql.com
Subject: Major bug fixed in InnoDB optimizer in ... WHERE col > x
Date: 28 Jan 2003 01:52:49 +0200

Hi!

Over the past 2 years several users have complained about optimization of
queries of type

... WHERE col < x;
... WHERE col <= x;
... WHERE col > x;
... WHERE col >= x;

and, indeed, there was a major bug in the InnoDB query estimator. The fix
appears in 4.0.10 and 3.23.56.

"
MySQL/InnoDB-3.23.56, February xx, 2003

Fixed a major bug in InnoDB query optimization: queries of type SELECT ...
WHERE indexcolumn < x and SELECT ... WHERE indexcolumn > x could cause a
table scan even if the selectivity would have been very good.
"

Best regards,

Heikki
Innobase Oy

For mail filters:
How-to-Repeat:
sql query

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from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Longer 'new page' message

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>For eons people have complained that "Put the text of the new page
>here." is extremely unhelpful and promotes confusion among newbies to
>wiki; that it discourages people from doing anything further with the
>site as they don't know what they've stumbled into; and that it
>encourages a lot of useless blank, "Put the text of the new page here",
>and "What does this do? FJSDIOJDFS" pages. Longer, more informative
>messages have been suggested.

I like the new message, but it seems a bit more could be done. Why
not modify the script so that it will respond with an error message
if anyone attempts to submit a new article that contains the exact
text of the "newarticletext" string? No matter what message you put
in the edit box, there will still be newbies who misunderstand or
ignore the message and create useless pages, but you can make it a
little harder for them to do so.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Geoff Burling

body:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Jonathan Walther wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 02:38:39PM -0800, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> >>Murder of vast numbers of people who believe as you
> >>do becomes justified, when you use control of a
> >>technology that they don't have, to censor their
> >>views on what you are doing, and make it impossible
> >>for them to stop you any other way.
> >
> >I may have been wrong in banning the IP from en.wiki
> >but I don't appreciate thinly veiled threats on my
> >life.
>
> That wasn't a thinly veiled threat on your life.  That was a wakeup
> call.  Try being nice, and let other people have their day in the sun
> too.  By the way, what did he mean by "people who believe as you do"?

Well, I'm glad you knew what this guy was talking about. I've not only
read the passage excerpted, but the original post, & I'm still not clear
what the writer's point was. (And if someone walks past me muttering
"kill", "pain", "get what you deserve", my first instinct is to suspect
that the person speaking may be making a threat against me -- when a
moment of logical reflection will prove that I'm merely hearing part
of a monologue of an individual stating what he fears may happen to HIM.

> Are you a Republican?
>
Although that was not directed at me, I have to chime in: Not in the
slightest, but some of my favorite relatives are.

Geoff


subject: [WikiEN-l] Distasteful names - CrucifiedChrist

body:
On Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 05:58:21AM +0000, james duffy wrote:
>I know we have a problem sometimes with badly chosen names (to put it
>mildly!). One I have heard some comment about is CRUCIFIEDCHRIST which I
>agree is in very bad taste, as it appears to mock the beliefs of many Wiki

I second that motion.  Could someone please change that username.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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body:
On lun, 2003-01-27 at 21:58, james duffy wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I know we have a problem sometimes with badly chosen names (to put it
> mildly!). One I have heard some comment about is CRUCIFIEDCHRIST which I
> agree is in very bad taste, as it appears to mock the beliefs of many Wiki
> users. (Either that or it is someone with a Woodrow Wilson-style Christ
> complex!) It would be as unacceptable as if someone called themeselves
> BUSHWARMONGER, LAPDOG BLAIR or BELSEN. It is provocative, offensive to many
> and should be removed. Is there some procedure by which those in unsuitable
> names are asked to change them? I haven't seen CUMGUZZLER for a while. Maybe
> he has renamed, reformed or is living up to his name and so otherwise
> distracted. (Was it a he? I never checked!)

CG used a number of login names from the same IP, including this one.
All things considered, I'd say it's a huge improvement.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 10:37:11PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
>> I know we have a problem sometimes with badly chosen names (to put it
>> mildly!). One I have heard some comment about is CRUCIFIEDCHRIST which I
>
>CG used a number of login names from the same IP, including this one.
>All things considered, I'd say it's a huge improvement.

Blasphemy is as offensive as lewdness.  He is still trying to
deliberately provoke and offend people; hardly what I would consider a
"collegial spirit of mutual respect".

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Why_do_people_do_this?

body:
I've seen this a lot: People write links [[like_this]]. Does anyone have
an idea what makes them do this? Is there anything in the way articles are
displayed that suggests underscores should be used? Are that many people
looking at the browser's status bar, where the underscores are visible?

Can we do anything to prevent this?

Puzzled,

Erik


from_name: Pieter Suurmond

subject: [Wikitech-l] Because people learn interactively with the Wikiserver?

body:
Sorry I'm going to bother you again: :-)

Why undersores appear? Wikisoftware generates them itself.
                       Users indeed look and copy from the
                       location bar. That's what it was
                       invented for.
Overkill?
Translating 1 character to another is about the simpliest and
fastest CPU-operation one can imagine: 1 table lookup, that's
2 or 3 clockcycles for an indexed MOVE operation in assembly!
If you find it no problem to apply this rule at the input:

 ' ' --> '_'

what then is the problem with translating it back again?:

 '_' --> ' '

Am I missing something?
Users are not to blame for underscores. The software design
is to blame: you choose that the name of the article HAD to
be 'nicely' visible in the URL, and that 's maybe the 'error'.
Adding 1-cpu cycle to the code is better than keeping
correcting users forever.

Hope this doesn't sound too ... how does one say in English...
too harsh maybe?.... It's just to get it clear for myself.
Am I really missing something here?

Thanks,
Pieter

Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> On lun, 2003-01-27 at 14:20, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > I've seen this a lot: People write links [[like_this]]. Does anyone have
> > an idea what makes them do this? Is there anything in the way articles are
> > displayed that suggests underscores should be used? Are that many people
> > looking at the browser's status bar, where the underscores are visible?
>
> Probably. Also, some automatically created links (moved pages,
> usemod-era subpage links) have underscores in them.
>
> > Can we do anything to prevent this?
>
> Tell them "don't do that"? It seems overkill to automatically filter
> input looking for links and replacing underscores with spaces.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                        Name: signature.asc
>    signature.asc       Type: application/pgp-signature
>                 Description: This is a digitally signed message part


body:
On lun, 2003-01-27 at 22:47, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 10:37:11PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> >CG used a number of login names from the same IP, including this one.
> >All things considered, I'd say it's a huge improvement.
>
> Blasphemy is as offensive as lewdness.  He is still trying to
> deliberately provoke and offend people; hardly what I would consider a
> "collegial spirit of mutual respect".

The problem with these names is the disruption caused by other
Wikipedians taking offense at them.

"Cumguzzler" received acrid complaints within hours and generated pages
of screed *entirely from other people debating its lack of merits*
within a couple days of its first appearence, while "CrucifiedChrist"
has been used for almost two weeks *without a peep* from anyone until
today.

In my book, that's a huge improvement. Now please stop feeding the
trolls; we've got an encyclopedia to work on.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Why_do_people_do_this?

body:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 02:23:41PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On lun, 2003-01-27 at 14:20, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > I've seen this a lot: People write links [[like_this]]. Does anyone have
> > an idea what makes them do this? Is there anything in the way articles are
> > displayed that suggests underscores should be used? Are that many people
> > looking at the browser's status bar, where the underscores are visible?
>
> Probably. Also, some automatically created links (moved pages,
> usemod-era subpage links) have underscores in them.

I'm not sure, but isn't page moving function leaving underscored links
in redirects ? Why does it do it ?


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikitech-l] Longer 'new page' message

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Suggestions for more consice, professional, friendly, and informative
>wording are welcome.
>
>-
>
been sitting on Meta for months:

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_page_page


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Escaping completion

body:
Oliver Pereira wrote:

>I think that having a link in only part of a word would look hideously
>ugly!
>
agreed

>
>I also think it looks ugly when only *part* of a name, book title, etc. is
>linked, or when there is a link within a heading. Is that just me...?
>
>
>
Links in titles are hideous.
Links within the bolded first mention of the subject look pretty bad
too., eg
The '''black [[rat]]''' .....

>
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Longer 'new page' message

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>On lun, 2003-01-27 at 16:11, tarquin wrote:
>
>
>>Brion Vibber wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Suggestions for more consice, professional, friendly, and informative
>>>wording are welcome.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>been sitting on Meta for months:
>>
>>http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_page_page
>>
>>
>
>I'm well aware of that, as I wrote it. :)  That's not editbox text, but
>a full page with links to what you oughta meant.
>
>
>
See lower down, under heading "Edit Version" :-)


body:
> Sorry I'm going to bother you again: :-)

No problem -- you are probably correct that we should just convert the
stuff, preferably before saving. OTOH, this has a probable negative side-
effect: People might continue to type [[foo_bar_baz_boo_bad]] without us
even noticing; that is, they might spend more effort than necessary.

Perhaps, if underscores in links are detected, a bold warning message
should be prepended on the page: "You have used underscores in your links.
This is not necessary. See .. for more information. The underscores have
been filtered".

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] Longer 'new page' message

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>I'm well aware of that, as I wrote it. :)  That's not editbox text, but
>a full page with links to what you oughta meant.
>
>More work to set up, requires a second click to edit any page if it's to
>serve the same function
>
Sorry to double post, but rereading I think there's been a misunderstanding.

The first part of that meta page is a suggestion for what is seen when
the the user enters a Wikipedia URL for a page that does not exist, thus:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/fghfgh

it's for people who follow a dead link from another site, not for our
own internal ghost links.


subject: [Wikitech-l] never complain

body:
Thanks for replying Erik,

Please solve it elegantly: never complain to the user about
the designer's own mistakes: just translate back while receiving
a text submitted by a user. It is a 'design-uglyness' of
the Wikipedia perhaps, but never the user's fault.

It is the software who started this *silent translating* in the
first place, now don't blame that innocent user for adopting
these (hardly visible!) habits! Let's instead be nice.
Please don't frighten people with bold warning messages, they
are really unnessesary. It would pollute GUI in my opinion.

Somewhere in the code, it is detected if somethin is between [[ ]]...
Hopefully that code resides somewhere in the part where the Article-text
from the user is received. Must not be too hard to put in a simple
find-and-replace-command there, would it?

Kind regards
Pieter

Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> > Sorry I'm going to bother you again: :-)
>
> No problem -- you are probably correct that we should just convert the
> stuff, preferably before saving. OTOH, this has a probable negative side-
> effect: People might continue to type [[foo_bar_baz_boo_bad]] without us
> even noticing; that is, they might spend more effort than necessary.
>
> Perhaps, if underscores in links are detected, a bold warning message
> should be prepended on the page: "You have used underscores in your links.
> This is not necessary. See .. for more information. The underscores have
> been filtered".
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] never complain

body:
> Somewhere in the code, it is detected if somethin is between [[ ]]...
> Hopefully that code resides somewhere in the part where the Article-text
> from the user is received. Must not be too hard to put in a simple
> find-and-replace-command there, would it?

No, it would be trivial, and I am in fact working on this part of the code
anyway. But as I said, I don't think it's a good idea to let people adopt
bad habits. The warning message can be friendly, but I think it's useful,
similar to a spellchecker.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] never complain

body:
On 28 Jan 2003, Erik Moeller wrote:

> > Somewhere in the code, it is detected if somethin is between [[ ]]...
> > Hopefully that code resides somewhere in the part where the Article-text
> > from the user is received. Must not be too hard to put in a simple
> > find-and-replace-command there, would it?
>
> No, it would be trivial, and I am in fact working on this part of the code
> anyway. But as I said, I don't think it's a good idea to let people adopt
> bad habits. The warning message can be friendly, but I think it's useful,
> similar to a spellchecker.

I really don't see what the two of you are making a fuss about. What's so bad
about those underscores in the first place? It's not like the links get any
worse or better from them.

Andre Engels


from_name: Youandme

subject: [Wikitech-l] Longer 'new page' message

body:
On 28 Jan 2003 at 0:11, tarquin wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> >Suggestions for more consice, professional, friendly, and informative
> >wording are welcome.
> >
> been sitting on Meta for months:
>
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_page_page

Been implemented on Polish wp since January 6

http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-January/002149.html

Youandme


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
Jonathan Walther wrote:
> >Can we ban all this users IPs and perhaps call the
> >cops?
>
> That is an extreme, and unwarranted reaction.

I disagree.  Threats of murder are absolutely impermissible and do, in
fact, warrant police action.

What we're engaged in here, writing an encyclopedia, is a simple and
kind hobby, a gift to the world, put forward with genuine concern for
the well-being of all humanity.  There's absolutely nothing about what
we are doing that should expose any of us to threats of harm.  The
very idea is ludicrous.

--Jimbo


body:
For those who are new to the scene, I'll just say this.  The
particular details of partisan politics (Republican, Democrat,
Green, Libertarian, etc., etc.) are not relevant here.  24 is
outside those normal categories.  His actual political ideas are
an incomprehensible mish-mash of vaguely leftist notions, but
I think there's absolutely every reason to take what he said as
a threat.

How credible is the threat?  I don't know.  But credible enough to
take legal action, in my opinion.

--Jimbo


from_name: M Carling

body:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> Jonathan Walther wrote:
> > >Can we ban all this users IPs and perhaps call the
> > >cops?
> >
> > That is an extreme, and unwarranted reaction.
>
> I disagree.  Threats of murder are absolutely impermissible and do, in
> fact, warrant police action.
>
> What we're engaged in here, writing an encyclopedia, is a simple and
> kind hobby, a gift to the world, put forward with genuine concern for
> the well-being of all humanity.  There's absolutely nothing about what
> we are doing that should expose any of us to threats of harm.  The
> very idea is ludicrous.

I would agree that informing the police would be right if there were a
threat.  However, I find Jonathon's interpretation at least as plausible
as the threat interpretation.  I wouldn't argue against bannishment in
this case, but in the absense of a clearer threat, I wouldn't be the one
to call the cops.

My $0.02,
M Carling


subject: [Wikitech-l] [hardy@math.mit.edu: edit conflicts]

body:
----- Forwarded message from Michael Hardy <hardy at math.mit.edu> -----

From: Michael Hardy <hardy at math.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:16:19 -0500 (EST)
To: jwales at bomis.com
Subject: edit conflicts

    We desparately need a better way to handle edit conflicts
than the current method of destroying 20 minutes work without
warning.   -- Mike

--
Michael Hardy
hardy at math.mit.edu

----- End forwarded message -----


in_reply_to: <BAY1-F103LJGWSa1aNE000004f8@hotmail.com>; from jtdirl@hotmail.com on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 05:58:21AM +0000

body:
I've decided to take a hardline on such names.  Some will gripe that
their freedom of speech is being restricted, but I think that's pretty
silly.  Wikipedia is not the right place to get your jollies by
tweaking people.  And if you have some political message you want to
get across you can just write a biased article, ha ha.

(Seriously, my point is that wikipedia is not the place for such
things.  The user pages are pretty much laissez-faire, anyway.)

To be fair, if we're not going to allow CRUCIFIEDCHRIST, we probably
can't allow a number of other polemical names, even ones that are not
offensive to most people.  For example 'GhandiIsGreat'.

> I know we have a problem sometimes with badly chosen names (to put it
> mildly!). One I have heard some comment about is CRUCIFIEDCHRIST which I
> agree is in very bad taste, as it appears to mock the beliefs of many Wiki
> users. (Either that or it is someone with a Woodrow Wilson-style Christ
> complex!) It would be as unacceptable as if someone called themeselves
> BUSHWARMONGER, LAPDOG BLAIR or BELSEN.

Well, "Belsen" is a real name, in addition to being a concentration
camp.  So *if* someone has that name, for real, and if it was not
intended to be political.

--Jimbo


body:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 07:03:37PM -0800, Zoe wrote:
>>>Murder of vast numbers of people who believe as you
>>>do becomes justified, when you use control of a
>>>technology that they don't have, to censor their
>>>views on what you are doing, and make it impossible
>>>for them to stop you any other way.
>
>Jonathan, WHAT are you talking about?  Mav is one of the least contentious
>people around here!  Be nice?  Mav is always nice, except when there are
>times when it's wrong to be nice.  Do you have any idea what you're
>talking about?

A) Mav summarily reverted a lot of my edits on the strength of some
   bullshit Zionist claims that I was biased, anti-Semitic, and the like.
   I assumed 24 was another person who had received that treatment from Mav.

B) The "threat" was obviously referring to the massive ethnic conflicts
   that have been happening through history, including very recent
   history, where groups without power wreak bloody vengeance when they finally
   gain the upper hand.

   I understood his quoted statement as a way of saying "be nice now, and when the
   people who think like me have the power, they won't considers themselves to
   have cause to purge and pogrom the people who think like you."

HOWEVER!

In private correspondance I have been told that 24 has a long history of
threatening extreme violence, and showing signs of being mentally
disturbed in a criminally dangerous way.

Given this, I hasten to add that my analysis of 24's statement lacks the
context of people who have dealt with 24 on an on-going basis.  Erik may
very well have received death threats from 24, and I encourage him to
contact the police.

I encourage Erik to give the police more context than I saw in that
first post; the police, knowing 24 as much as I did (ie, not at all),
may very well interpret the post the same way I did; as harmless
crankery.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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body:
On Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 01:35:41PM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote:
>You're confused. Mav != me. Mav == Daniel Mayer. He received the threats.

Right. s/Eric/Dan/ in my previous email.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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from_name: james duffy

body:
Hi folks,

I know we have a problem sometimes with badly chosen names (to put it
mildly!). One I have heard some comment about is CRUCIFIEDCHRIST which I
agree is in very bad taste, as it appears to mock the beliefs of many Wiki
users. (Either that or it is someone with a Woodrow Wilson-style Christ
complex!) It would be as unacceptable as if someone called themeselves
BUSHWARMONGER, LAPDOG BLAIR or BELSEN. It is provocative, offensive to many
and should be removed. Is there some procedure by which those in unsuitable
names are asked to change them? I haven't seen CUMGUZZLER for a while. Maybe
he has renamed, reformed or is living up to his name and so otherwise
distracted. (Was it a he? I never checked!)

JT

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Ban those who send, and justify, death threats

body:
I am horrified by the way that someone is clearly
threatening to murder one of us. I am surprised that so few
people here find this a problem. Does anything think that a
death threat is a joke? How would you like it if someone
was justifying the murder of your children?

Also, I just as horrified by the way that Jonathan (Clutch)
slanders this victim, justifies the clear death threat, and
- in a moment of absolute delusions - implicitylu blames
this on me (RK). For months now, as many of you know,
Jonathan has been suffering from paranoid delusions that
the Wikipedia community hates Christians. Now, we see the
depth of his illness.

I have said so before, and I say, again, Jonathan needs to
be banned from Wikipedia. Not only does he have a long
history of printing anti-Semitic incitement, but now he has
reached out with hateful speech to others here. Apparently
in his mind, it is Ok to send implic it death threats to
Wikipedia sysops.

Hey, if I don't like what a sysop says to me, can I
threaten to murder them too? ...

The real problem is why the rest of you let such a
disturbed and hateful person justify death threats,
anti-Semitism, and paranoid anti-Christian conspiracy
theories. This man needs medication; not unlimited access
to disrupt the Wikipedia community. This disruption of
Wikipedia only occurs because you allow it to.

If you allow anaonymous users to send very clear death
threats, and if you allow wackos to stay on Wikipedia
justifying them (or denying that they exist) all you will
end up doing is driving rational people away from this
project. I certainly won't stay on a project where
anti-Semites might threaten to kill me. Is this really so
hard to understand?

Or will I get a death threat myself for writing this
letter?

Robert (RK)

=====
"I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous".
The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]

__________________________________________________
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from_name: Qaz

body:
Basically, it is not our job to decide what warrents action. If you are
uncomfortable enought to contact the police, do so. They will tell you if
there is enough to take action or not. That is there job, to know the
difference and know when to act. Our job is to call on them when we need
help. Debate ended as far as I am concerned.

-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org]On Behalf Of Jimmy Wales
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 6:39 AM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 142.177.xxx.xxx (aka 24) is at it again

For those who are new to the scene, I'll just say this.  The
particular details of partisan politics (Republican, Democrat,
Green, Libertarian, etc., etc.) are not relevant here.  24 is
outside those normal categories.  His actual political ideas are
an incomprehensible mish-mash of vaguely leftist notions, but
I think there's absolutely every reason to take what he said as
a threat.

How credible is the threat?  I don't know.  But credible enough to
take legal action, in my opinion.

--Jimbo
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Well, I'm not going to ban Jonathan for this, obviously.

In private email it has become clear to me that he didn't really grasp
what this was all about.  He didn't know the whole history of 24, and
so it took it to be more of a joke or idle remark than anything else.

Even if it *were* a joke or idle remark, I wouldn't tolerate implied
death threats for a second.  But I can certainly see how reasonable
people might differ on juding borderline cases.  This one is not
borderline, though.

--Jimbo


body:
On Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 07:08:22AM -0800, Robert wrote:
>Jonathan has been suffering from paranoid delusions that
>the Wikipedia community hates Christians.

You reveal yourself by the words of your own mouth.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On 1/28/03 8:24 AM, "Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at epost.de> wrote:

> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>> Well, "Belsen" is a real name, in addition to being a concentration
>> camp.  So *if* someone has that name, for real, and if it was not
>> intended to be political.
>>
>>
> Actually, the place is "Bergen-Belsen", AFAIK, so we could allow "Belsen".
>
This is getting a bit ridiculous.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Subpages for user & talk pages

body:
I'm quite opposed to this.  The benefit is negligible, and the cost
is substantial.

The benefit, as I see it, is merely to eliminate some typing on user
subpages, and to enable automatic backlinking on those same pages.
This is a very tiny part of our overall mission, and so the benefit
here is quite small.

The cost is that we are adding syntax in one part of wikipedia that
new users will discover and come to expect throughout all of
wikipedia.  Increasing the befuddlement of newcomers is always a bad
thing, although it can sometimes be overcome if there is a very very
strong and compelling reason.

--Jimbo


body:
> Using Wikipedia is a learning process; this cannot be avoided. Implementing
> subpages properly instead of merely tolerating them makes learning where and
> where not to use them easier.

I don't agree.  We aren't talking about the wisdom of subpages, we are
talking about the typing shortcut and the linkbacks.  Both are not
very useful.

If you wanted to add a warning to regular pages, saying "Uh, it is
best not to use the slash character '/' in article titles" with a link
to a discussion of subpages, while not having the warning in special
pages, that'd be fine with me.

It would be fine with me if we put that message everywhere, saying
that we discourage the use of subpages generally.

But we really should discourage them generally by not "supporting"
them with useless cute features.

--Jimbo


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Currently users are already creating pages like:
>
>  [[User:Eloquence/Wikipedia Manifesto]]
>  (not a real page).
>
>With subpage support enabled, it would be possible to just type
>
>  [[/Wikipedia Manifesto]]
>
>on the respective page, and the link would automatically go to the above
>page. Furthermore, the "Wikipedia Manifesto" page would provide an automatic
>backlink to [[User:Eloquence]].
>
Maybe I'm missing something, but how would this procedure handle the
situation where other users also would have identically named sub-pages.
 It is certainly reasonable to expect that many of our busier users
would have sub-pages named "/archive 1", "/archive 2", "/archive 3", etc.
Eclecticology


in_reply_to: <8ehL4jHCpVB@erik_moeller>; from erik_moeller@gmx.de on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 06:54:00PM +0100

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Regardless, I primarily added the support for my own use. If you intend to
> block this feature on Wikipedia by imperial decree, I don't care much.

Not by imperial degree, no.  I will follow the consensus in the best
interests of wikipedia, as always.  This doesn't preclude me from having
an opinion.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] Client-side caching

body:
I've just made some tweaks to allow client-side caching of article pages
and recentchanges.

They now provide a 'Last-modified' header which reflects the timestamp
of the page (or for recentchanges, the most recently modified page).
They're still set to expire instantly, so a caching client ought to ask
for the page again, with an 'If-modified-since' header. If the
last-modified timestamp has not changed, we tell it '304 Not modified'
and the client uses its cached version. Otherwise, the page continues
being generated and loaded.

Currently on test.wikipedia.org, please throw various browsers against
it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] 142.177.xxx.xxx (aka 24) is at it again

body:
J.P. Kirby wrote:
> I joined this discussion late, but I have somewhat conclusive proof
> that 142 and 24 are different people. I live in eastern Canada and
> am familiar with those IP addresses:

Unfortunately, I think you're right, to an extent.

It has been a long time since we've seen '24', though, so he could
have moved.  But we can't be very sure.

--Jimbo


from_name: Tom Parmenter

in_reply_to:
<BA5BEFB9.6542%cunctator@kband.com> (message from The Cunctator
	on Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:28:41 -0500)

body:
The policy as it stands now says that even real names can be banned if
other people find them offensive.

Tom Parmenter
Ortolan88

|From: The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com>
|Sender: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
|Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:28:41 -0500
|
|On 1/28/03 8:24 AM, "Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at epost.de> wrote:
|
|> Jimmy Wales wrote:
|>
|>> Well, "Belsen" is a real name, in addition to being a concentration
|>> camp.  So *if* someone has that name, for real, and if it was not
|>> intended to be political.
|>>
|>>
|> Actually, the place is "Bergen-Belsen", AFAIK, so we could allow "Belsen".
|>
|This is getting a bit ridiculous.
|
|_______________________________________________
|WikiEN-l mailing list
|WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
|http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
|


from_name: Anthere

body:
--- Robert <rkscience100 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have said so before, and I say, again, Jonathan
> needs to
> be banned from Wikipedia. Not only does he have a
> long
> history of printing anti-Semitic incitement, but now
> he has
> reached out with hateful speech to others here.
> Apparently
> in his mind, it is Ok to send implic it death
> threats to
> Wikipedia sysops.

euh ?!?!?

Do you really think that threats to a sysop are worse
than threats to a non-sysop ???

Are they more "precious" or what ?

__________________________________________________
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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Client-side caching

body:
On mar, 2003-01-28 at 09:53, Brion Vibber wrote:
> I've just made some tweaks to allow client-side caching of article pages
> and recentchanges.

I'm having trouble getting the page marked as pre-expired, so Mozilla
and Konqueror aren't bothering to check it. Grr.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Die, 2003-01-28 at 04:31, Sheldon Rampton wrote:
> I like the new message, but it seems a bit more could be done. Why
> not modify the script so that it will respond with an error message
> if anyone attempts to submit a new article that contains the exact
> text of the "newarticletext" string?

We're already doing this (without the error message, which would
probably be useful). It doesn't work on the live version of the site at
the moment because of a cr/lf related bug, which is fixed in CVS.

Regards,

Erik
--
FOKUS - Fraunhofer Insitute for Open Communication Systems
Project BerliOS - http://www.berlios.de


subject: [Wikitech-l] Pretty statistics

body:
This is an instance of looking for one thing and finding another.  I was
seeking unsuccessfully for references to the authors quoted in the
Websterbot entries in Wiktionary when I encountered an interesting
display at http://www.hyperdictionary.com/webstats/  This seems to be
with free software from http://www.analog.cx/  Has there ever been any
consideration for doing this?

Eclecticology


subject: [Wikitech-l] Pretty statistics

in_reply_to: <1043780977.1047.32.camel@rdaneel.vibber.org>; from brion@pobox.com on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 11:09:38AM -0800

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> http://www.wikipedia.org/stats/

I guess our daily average is low this month due to the time that
we were, for unknown reasons, dropped from google for a few days.

I don't know this for a fact, I'm just hazarding a guess.  Any other
ideas?

I think that if/when war breaks out (I'm guessing early February) we
might see a flurry of activity.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] Pretty statistics

body:
On mar, 2003-01-28 at 10:57, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> This is an instance of looking for one thing and finding another.  I was
> seeking unsuccessfully for references to the authors quoted in the
> Websterbot entries in Wiktionary when I encountered an interesting
> display at http://www.hyperdictionary.com/webstats/  This seems to be
> with free software from http://www.analog.cx/  Has there ever been any
> consideration for doing this?

http://www.wikipedia.org/stats/

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] chill out: was Ban those who send, and justify, death threats

body:
Jonathan and RK,

Please don't use this mailing list as a forum for a bad-tempered fight
(that's what private e-mail is for ;-)

RK: You are concerned with anti-Semitism and attempts to conceal or mask
it.
Clutch: I'm not sure where you're coming from, but "A soft answer
turneth away wrath."

Both of youse: chill out and try to focus on writing good articles.

Ed Poor
x5479


from_name: Richard Grevers

body:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 03:50:49 -0800 (PST), Anthere
<anthere5=/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

>
> What about letting a text this type only for anonymous
> users ? Most loggued-in users already know what wiki
> and an edit page is about
>
A good idea - that will help me avoid creating articles without being
logged in (I lose my login because I am upgrading my browser (a beta)
frequently).
--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 142.177.xxx.xxx (aka 24) is at it again

body:
Clutch said:
>A) Mav summarily reverted a lot of my edits on the
>strength of some bullshit Zionist claims that I was
>biased, anti-Semitic, and the like.
>I assumed 24 was another person who had received that
>treatment from Mav.

Eh? If anything I sympathize more with the
Palestinians than Israelis. However, I will not allow
others to insert their POV into articles even when I
happen to agree with that POV. BTW I don't recall ever
saying you were anti-Semitic (which is an odd term
anyway since Arabic and Hebrew are both Semitic
languages).

--mav

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from_name: koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] wired article

body:
the wired article is out:
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,57364,00.html

kq

wikikarma: to come, fate willing.  I've got some photos developing.


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Go button updates

body:
I've cleaned up the go button code a little and moved it to a separate
function. I've also changed the behavior to first try to find a close
title match before running a full text search. That is, the process is
now:

	1) try various capitalization variants (we could make this
	   simpler by creating an UPPER index in CUR, but it may not
	   be worth it); if there's a match, display it
	2) try title search in search index, if there's a match, display
	   it (e.g. typing "Chomsky" and clicking go will also display
	   "Noam Chomsky"); this searches across namespaces. In some
	   cases it produces weird hits because it just picks the first
	   match, so cunctator->go might put you on the talk page
	   or on some subpage instead of the user page, depending on the
	   order in the table.
	3) run full text search

Regards,

Erik

--
FOKUS - Fraunhofer Insitute for Open Communication Systems
Project BerliOS - http://www.berlios.de


from_name: Zoe

body:
Neither are death threats, but you seem to approve of those.
Zoe
 Jonathan Walther <krooger at debian.org> wrote:On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 10:37:11PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
>> I know we have a problem sometimes with badly chosen names (to put it
>> mildly!). One I have heard some comment about is CRUCIFIEDCHRIST which I
>
>CG used a number of login names from the same IP, including this one.
>All things considered, I'd say it's a huge improvement.

Blasphemy is as offensive as lewdness. He is still trying to
deliberately provoke and offend people; hardly what I would consider a
"collegial spirit of mutual respect".

Jonathan

--
Geek House Productions, Ltd.

Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone: 604-435-1205
Email: djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC V5R2W2
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body:
On mar, 2003-01-28 at 11:53, james duffy wrote:
> One of the reasons was that  the person who has ownership
> of the pictures logged on to Wiki, saw references to CrucifiedChrist and
> took offence, arguing that if that is the standard of contributions and
> contributors made to Wiki, Wiki obviously isn't a serious attempt at an
> encyclopedia and he was withdrawing permission which he up to then was on
> the brink of giving.

That would have made a _much_ more effective opening argument -- thank
you for following up with details.

Unfortunately, since Wikipedia didn't adopt a 'use your real name or
post anonymously' policy, the selection of nicks, and the process of
deciding what is and isn't acceptable, is always going to be arbitrary
and ex post facto. (Does "Tokerboy" give the professional appearence we
want to present to potential IP donors? Or even "Maveric149"?)

Cf. http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?UseRealNames on MeatballWiki.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Can those we've already created be grandfathered as subpages, or would we need to recreate them?
Zoe
 Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:Folks,

when the whole subpage discussion first came up, Larry Sanger wrote:
"Subpages would be nice, I suppose, for other namespaces, like the Wikipedia
namespace and the User namespace." I have just added namespace-specific subpage
support to Wikipedia. This means that we can now enable subpages selectively for
only the User & Talk namespaces. I suggest doing so.

Currently users are already creating pages like:

[[User:Eloquence/Wikipedia Manifesto]]
(not a real page).

With subpage support enabled, it would be possible to just type

[[/Wikipedia Manifesto]]

on the respective page, and the link would automatically go to the above
page. Furthermore, the "Wikipedia Manifesto" page would provide an automatic
backlink to [[User:Eloquence]].

Similarly; users are archiving talk pages like this:

[[Talk:Main Page/Archive 1]] [[Talk:Main Page/Archive 2]] [[Talk:Main
Page/Archive 3]]

Again, here we can simply type

[[/Archive 1]] [[/Archive 2]] [[/Archive 3]]

and have automatic backlinks on the archive pages.

When the new Wikipedia software was developed, it was decided not to support
subpages for the reason that they would disturb the Wikipedia article
structure. I agree with this reasoning, but it is not valid for user and talk
pages. Since we now have the ability to turn on subpages selectively, I see no
reason not to do so. We could also globally enable them on wikis where they
might be useful, e.g. Meta.

Regards,

Erik

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Pretty statistics

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>I guess our daily average is low this month due to the time that
>we were, for unknown reasons, dropped from google for a few days.
>
>I don't know this for a fact, I'm just hazarding a guess.  Any other
>ideas?
>
I don't think that they have forgotten completely.  In the search that I
was doing with Google, I used the search term [Webster 1913] and the
Wiktionary page [[Webster 1913:Accelerograph]] was 5th on a list of
260,000.  -- but not really because the link was to the
Special:Randompage.  The very next item on the list was for the page on
Using public domain works as a base.

Eclecticology


subject: [Wikipedia-l] "Click here if logged in"

body:
What is "Click here if logged in" from the Main Page gaining us?

Zoe

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] "Click here if logged in"

body:
On mar, 2003-01-28 at 13:15, Zoe wrote:
> What is "Click here if logged in" from the Main Page gaining us?

Traffic is up a bit from the Wired article etc, so I've put back the
static main page to help improve response time.

As you may recall, the static version of the page can't show that you're
logged in, because it's just a file on a hard disk and can't check your
login cookie. The "Click here if logged in" link takes you to the live
main page, which _does_ show if you're logged in.

The intent was to avoid another round of "hey, every time I go to the
site I'm logged out even though I said remember my password!"
complaints.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wrong 24 (was 142.177.xxx.xxx (aka 24) is at it again)

body:
OK - if I'm reading the current thread right I think
we are chasing a red herring with 24.42.43.3.

Let me be crystal clear here: The user known as '24'
used the IP 24.150.61.63 when he was banned many
months ago NOT 24.42.43.3. I have only had dealings
with 142.177.xxx.xxx NOT 24.42.43.3.

I'm not sure why 24.42.43.3 was listed on my talk page
(I think they were tag teaming on a talk page). But
just because 24.42.43.3 is not '24' doesn't mean that
142.177.xxx.xxx isn't. It was Axel who first brought
the '24'/142 connection to my attention so he would
probably be a better person to explain the connection.

Here is '24's "user page":
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:24.150.61.63

--mav

The writing style, choice of terminology, political
bias, and using unneeded "w" links on talk pages of
142 is very similar to '24.' What is more telling is
that both  24.150.61.63 and 142.177.104.168 seem be
from the Toronto area (at least they both use Toronto
hops). But then half of Canada could be using those
same hops as far as I know. But on the face of it it
does look like '24' has simply changed ISPs. There are
too many coincidences to discount.

Whois lookup for 24.150.61.63 (indicates IP is from
the Toronto area)
http://network-tools.com/default.asp?prog=express&Netnic=whois.arin.net&host=24.150.61.63

Whois lookup for 142.177.104.168 (Also indicates IP is
from the Toronto area)
http://network-tools.com/default.asp?prog=express&Netnic=whois.arin.net&host=142.177.104.168+

Wikipedia is too damn slow right now for me to do any
real research but here are some links:
.
Something written by 142 which was later placed in
meta (note the mention of us 'not using meta' ; '24'
also charged the 'cabal' for this)
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal

An interchange between Axel and 142
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Internet_troll

142 posting a complaint against AxelBoldt (I
mistakenly told Jimbo on the phone that this was on
the annoying users page)
http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Edit_wars_in_progress&diff=583584&oldid=583300

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body:
On Die, 2003-01-28 at 13:05, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from Michael Hardy <hardy at math.mit.edu> -----
>
> From: Michael Hardy <hardy at math.mit.edu>
> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:16:19 -0500 (EST)
> To: jwales at bomis.com
> Subject: edit conflicts
>
>
>     We desparately need a better way to handle edit conflicts
> than the current method of destroying 20 minutes work without
> warning.   -- Mike

Hi Michael,

yes, we need a better way to handle edit conflicts; but in any case,
your work should not be destroyed! Unless something went very wrong, you
should be given two edit windows, one with the new version saved by
someone else and one with your version, and a list of changes. You can
then incorporate (copy&paste) your changes into the new version. Please
let us know if this was not the case.

There are some things we can do:

1) Use the "merge" UNIX utility or write our own code to try to
auto-merge in case of conflicts; only present edit conflict (with a
single edit window and CVS style conflict markers) when text cannot be
merged

2) Show a warning if someone has started to edit the text < x minutes
before you have

3) On Talk pages, provide links to append comments, which should work
with every revision

These have been talked about before and will likely be implemented at
some point.

Regards,

Erik
--
FOKUS - Fraunhofer Insitute for Open Communication Systems
Project BerliOS - http://www.berlios.de


body:
Jonathan wrote:
> Given this, I hasten to add that my analysis of 24's statement lacks the
> context of people who have dealt with 24 on an on-going basis.  Erik may
> very well have received death threats from 24, and I encourage him to
> contact the police.

You're confused. Mav != me. Mav == Daniel Mayer. He received the threats.

Regards,

Erik

--
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NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] yay subpages, finally!

body:
On mar, 2003-01-28 at 13:40, Chuck Smith wrote:
> Thank you so much!  A year ago I kept bugging the
> techies to add this until I finally just gave up on
> the idea.  However, I think the subpages should only
> be used on the User namespace.  If Jimbo disagrees
> with this then he should delete his user subpages...

Yes, we have de facto subpages in User:, Talk:, and User talk: (the
latter two mostly for talk archives). To not support them without
providing and promoting an alternative is, I think, not the best of
ideas.

Ideas for alternatives are, of course, welcome.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: J.P. Kirby

body:
>===== Original Message From wikipedia-l-request at wikipedia.org =====
>
>> For background on this user see:
>>
>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Maveric149/archive_8
>
>
>142.227.121.39  Canadian Department of Education
> 142.177.104.168 Stentor National Integrated
>Communications Network
> 142.177.97.215  Stentor National Integrated
>Communications Network
> 24.42.43.3      Rogers Cable Inc.
>                 (more specifically, Rogers Cable Inc.
>Lndn ON-ROG-14-LNDN-1)
>
> Reverse DNS lookups
> 142.227.121.39  pc-39.bws.Library.NS.CA. (Nova Scotia
>provincial library)
> 142.177.104.168 hlfx54-1-168.ns.sympatico.ca. (?Nova
>Scotia? ?dial-up?)
> 142.177.97.215  hlfx47-215.ns.sympatico.ca.   (?Nova
>Scotia? ?dial-up?)
> 24.42.43.3
>CPE014440006755.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com.
>                 as of 10:10 UTC 2003-01-14 (but may
>be dynamic?)
>
>
>There is very little evidence 142 and 24 are the same
>persons here. I fail to see what supported banning 142
>under the affirmation he is 24, the latter not even
>being banned any more.
>
>Or is this an incorrect interpretation?
>
>Please, do provide evidence to support your conviction
>these adresses are from the same person, and further
>evidence that both require banning.
>

I joined this discussion late, but I have somewhat conclusive proof that 142
and 24 are different people. I live in eastern Canada and am familiar with
those IP addresses:

ns.sympatico.ca is the Nova Scotia branch of a national dial-up ISP run by an
alliance of local telephone companies called Stentor.

Rogers is a Canadian cable TV and internet company, however, they have little
to no presence (at least as far as TV is concerned) in Nova Scotia. The IP
seems to imply that 24 is in London, Ontario. Rogers does seem to operate in
London, since their website lists a TV cable channel lineup for that city. I
am pretty sure Rogers does not provide Internet access in cities where they do
not have cable TV.

Unless this person zips back and forth between the two cities, I would have to
say that you're dealing with two different people here.

JPK


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Why is 'CrucifiedChrist' less offensive than a pun
	on oral sex?

body:
On mar, 2003-01-28 at 13:51, james duffy wrote:
> Brion,
> I'm puzzled at your reply, particular about your 'effective opening
> argument' comment.

Allow me to compare, using an exaggerated form purely for rhetorical
effect:
      "I'm the only person ever to complain about how
       offensive this is! Ban it now!"
with
      "Wikipedia has lost access to a valuable resource
       because this user name made the project look
       extremely unprofessional."

>  The loss of those pictures was a result of the use of a
> clearly offensive name, CrucifiedChrist. But that name has already caused
> offence to Wikipedia users and contributors.  Yet you seem to be only
> bothered by the loss of the pictures, and not by the unambiguous
> offensiveness of the user nickname, which with a logic I cannot fathom, you
> regard as a 'huge improvement'!!!

Offense is only taken, not given. There is no objective measure of
offensiveness that I can perform; actual reactions and quanitifable
results as to how the project is affected are much more convincing to
me.

> People who complained to me said they would not complain publicly because
> their views would not be taken seriously. I've been sending messages back
> telling people that it is OK to complain, that their views will be taken as
> seriously, and they will be shown the same respect as everyone else.

Thank you for doing so -- we can't take seriously a complaint that is
never received!

>  Your
> continuing inability to see any problem with this nickname makes me think
> that maybe they are right; that mocking their beliefs is OK, because
> religious believers are perceived as second class citizens in terms of
> causing offence. Poor and corny sexual puns are 'of course' offensive. But
> mocking someone they regard as the Son of God isn't. Is this the latest
> political correctness?

You clearly have misunderstood my position. I am offended by neither
corny sexual puns nor by co-opting of religious terminology, but I
consider both to be in the category of things that make the project look
bad, along with silly usernames in general. If they make the project
look bad enough, or they provoke enough trouble within the ranks, that
it is detrimental to the project, I'm all in favor of kicking them out
and letting us all get back to work.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Well, "Belsen" is a real name, in addition to being a concentration
>camp.  So *if* someone has that name, for real, and if it was not
>intended to be political.
>
>
Actually, the place is "Bergen-Belsen", AFAIK, so we could allow "Belsen".

Magnus


subject: [WikiEN-l] wired article

body:
Like Yogi Berra, I didn't really say everything I said. Only the first and last quote Kendra Mayfield attributed to me was accurate.

"I decided to contribute because I think I have a lot of general knowledge, and I like being part of an online community," he said.

and

"I think that over the next few years, it's going to develop into a world-class encyclopedia that will rival the Britannica."

(I think I would remember having used words like 'astounded', 'passionate', or 'sanctity' -- words I do not throw around lightly. Ah, the burdens of being a public figure ;-)

"Uncle" Ed Poor

-----Original Message-----
From: koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com [mailto:koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:15 PM
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] wired article

the wired article is out:
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,57364,00.html

kq


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Why is 'CrucifiedChrist' less offensive than a pun on oral sex?

in_reply_to: <1043791729.1052.65.camel@rdaneel.vibber.org>; from brion@pobox.com on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 02:08:50PM -0800

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> it is detrimental to the project, I'm all in favor of kicking them out
> and letting us all get back to work.

I concur, with the caveat that in all but a few shocking cases that
only a twisted mind such as mine could think up anyway, ha ha, I don't
think that someone coming in with an offensive nickname is enough to
ban the *person*, particularly on a first offense.  We can just tell
them that they need to pick a more professional handle.

--Jimbo


body:
How can we really determine that the name is "unambiguous"ly
"offensive"?  Perhaps the person is a very religious Christian.
Zoe
 james duffy <jtdirl at hotmail.com> wrote:Brion,
I'm puzzled at your reply, particular about your 'effective opening
argument' comment. The loss of those pictures was a result of the use of a
clearly offensive name, CrucifiedChrist. But that name has already caused
offence to Wikipedia users and contributors. Yet you seem to be only
bothered by the loss of the pictures, and not by the unambiguous
offensiveness of the user nickname, which with a logic I cannot fathom, you
regard as a 'huge improvement'!!!

People who complained to me said they would not complain publicly because
their views would not be taken seriously. I've been sending messages back
telling people that it is OK to complain, that their views will be taken as
seriously, and they will be shown the same respect as everyone else. Your
continuing inability to see any problem with this nickname makes me think
that maybe they are right; that mocking their beliefs is OK, because
religious believers are perceived as second class citizens in terms of
causing offence. Poor and corny sexual puns are 'of course' offensive. But
mocking someone they regard as the Son of God isn't. Is this the latest
political correctness? As a non religious persion myself, I find your
attitude and complete inability to see the scale of the offence caused
puzzling, to put it at its politest. I thought pluralism is concerned with
showing similar respect to all sides equally. Or are religious
sensitivities, specifically sensitivities towards christians, less important
that other sensitivities, specifically ones to do with oral sex?

Please explain why causing offensive to religious people is a 'huge
improvement' on a pun on oral sex.

JT.

>From: Brion Vibber

>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Distasteful names - CrucifiedChrist
>Date: 28 Jan 2003 13:01:37 -0800
>
>On mar, 2003-01-28 at 11:53, james duffy wrote:
> > One of the reasons was that the person who has ownership
> > of the pictures logged on to Wiki, saw references to CrucifiedChrist and
> > took offence, arguing that if that is the standard of contributions and
> > contributors made to Wiki, Wiki obviously isn't a serious attempt at an
> > encyclopedia and he was withdrawing permission which he up to then was
>on
> > the brink of giving.
>
>That would have made a _much_ more effective opening argument -- thank
>you for following up with details.
>
>Unfortunately, since Wikipedia didn't adopt a 'use your real name or
>post anonymously' policy, the selection of nicks, and the process of
>deciding what is and isn't acceptable, is always going to be arbitrary
>and ex post facto. (Does "Tokerboy" give the professional appearence we
>want to present to potential IP donors? Or even "Maveric149"?)
>
>Cf. http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?UseRealNames on MeatballWiki.
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
><< signature.asc >>

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] "You've followed a link to a page that doesn't exist yet"

body:
If I attempt to edit a page which DOES exist, "You've followed a link to a page that doesn't exist yet ..." is nonetheless being displayed at the top of the page.

Zoe

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in_reply_to: <200301282351.h0SNpXcQ002737@genovevo.net>; from rednblack@alum.mit.edu on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 06:51:32PM -0500

body:
rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
> Thoughts?

Well, most nicknames are just that, nicknames, and harmless.  And if
people want to be anonymous, that's fine with me.  None of my business
who anybody "really" is.  But nicknames with an agenda, especially an
agenda to offend, are not in the non-NPOV spirit.

Such things are great on sites where they belong.  I curse like a
sailor, in the proper context.  I'm not stranger to offensive humor,
either.  Get me on a roll, and I could have the Pope laughing at
pregnant Nun jokes.

But that's not the kind of environment we want in a serious encyclopedia
project.  We're doing something here more important than goofing around
on the net.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] wired article

in_reply_to: <E079C39257D0D845AC39E2CA261C43E0A5D25B@sm-nyny-xm04.nena.wdpr.disney.com>; from Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 03:35:14PM -0500

body:
As long as they spell my name right...

Seriously, though, it was fun to see how Larry and I played our usual
yin-yang roles.  He, talking about quality control and taking a
definite stand against vandalism.  Me, talking about how much we all
love each other.

I didn't even realize they interviewed him! :-)


body:
Graft Wrote:
>If this is going to become such an issue, might I propose that, to
avoid debate
>in the future, we switch to UseRealNames (e.g., your handle is
>FirstnameLastname, or FMLastname)? This, it seems to me, is the only
clear way
>to avoid arguments over what is, and isn't, offensive.  I see no
reason to
>avoid this; we can facilitate the process by either converting existing
>usernames, or we can just leave it up to people to redirect as they deem
>appropriate.

Thoughts, yes.  I have some:  All I'm ever interested in having people
find out about me online is exactly what I want them to, and nothing
more.  I've succeeded quite well at it so far.  If UseRealNames is
policy, then I as a sysop would be expected to honor that policy, and
so I as a result would quit contributing.  Opinions about this vary of
course ("this" being "UseRealNames" and also "the significance of a
pseudonymous contributor quitting").

cheers,

kq


subject: [Wikipedia-l] yay subpages, finally!

in_reply_to: <3E36FBC8.6070202@epost.de>; from magnus.manske@epost.de on Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 10:53:12PM +0100

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> Wellm the point was not so much the subpages as the magic "/", which
> would make a backlink to "GNU" on the "GNU/Linux" article and the like.
>
> Just don't tell Larry ;-)

Heh, well, I'm pretty sure Eric isn't talking about enabling this for
the articles, which I REALLY would think is a bad idea, and I'd have to
raise more hell about it for a long time.

He's only talking about the User pages and the Talk pages, right?


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] "You've followed a link to a page that doesn't
	exist yet"

body:
On mar, 2003-01-28 at 16:07, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > If I attempt to edit a page which DOES exist, "You've followed a link to a
> > page that doesn't exist yet ..." is nonetheless being displayed at the top
> > of the page.
>
> Oops, that's what you get for doing 55 things at the same time. Fixed in
> CVS; Brion, please update.

Done.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] yay subpages, finally!

in_reply_to: <8elLImKhpVB@erik_moeller>; from erik_moeller@gmx.de on Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 01:34:00AM +0100

body:
Just to check, you have only written the code so far, right, not
enabled this?

Erik Moeller wrote:

> > Heh, well, I'm pretty sure Eric isn't talking about enabling this for
> > the articles, which I REALLY would think is a bad idea, and I'd have to
> > raise more hell about it for a long time.
>
> > He's only talking about the User pages and the Talk pages, right?
>
> That's correct, however, you will still get a backlink to
>
> [[Talk:GNU]]
>
> on
>
> [[Talk:GNU/Linux]].
>
> Without breaking compatibility with existing subpages, the software can't
> know whether Talk:GNU/Linux is a subpage of Talk:GNU or a separate Talk
> page.
>
> This is a very rare case, though; I can't think of any other one. If you
> absoutely want to avoid that single backlink, disable subpages for Talk
> pages (we can still allow them for User talk pages); however, they are
> very handy for archiving stuff.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] yay subpages, finally!

body:
On mar, 2003-01-28 at 16:52, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Just to check, you have only written the code so far, right, not
> enabled this?

Actually, I stuck it online along with other fixes and updates. If
you're terribly offended, we can take it off again. :)

But I'd like to see some feedback from usage first.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Namespace-specific subpage support added

body:
Hi,

support for subpages was not added to the new software because subpages
were considered detrimental to Wikipedia's structure. I agree with this:
For an encyclopedia, you want to avoid too many "hidden areas". However,
users are creating pseudo-subpages on their user pages and on talk pages
to archive them. In these instances, having subpage support may be
useful -- it makes link creation easier and provides automatic
backlinks.

DefaultSettings.php now has an array which defines namespaces that allow
subpages. Subpages are pages of the form [[/bar]], which, when created
on page [[foo]], lead to a page [[foo/bar]].

When creating links in a namespace that does not support subpages, the
link [[/bar]] simply points to "bar". When doing so in a namespace that
*does* support subpages, the link points to [[foo/bar]]. Thus, it is
possible to have talk page archives, subpages in userland etc., without
having subpages within Wikipedia.

On a page within a namespace that supports subpages, backlinks are shown
if the page title contains the "/" character. So "User
talk:Eloquence/Archive" shows a backlink to "User talk:Eloquence" at the
top (using the new subpage stylesheet). Backlinks are not shown to
non-existent parent pages.

Currently you have to do
	[[/foo]]
	[[/bar]]
	[[/baz]]

to create multiple subpages. I plan to add support for a <subpages> tag
which should simplify the creation of multiple subpages (e.g. archive
links):

	<subpages>
	[[foo]]
	[[bar]]
	[[baz]]
	</subpages>

I have committed a modified DefaultSettings.php which allows subpages
for Talk/User pages, which may be a reasonable default. I suggest that
this default be used for all Wikipedias, but this is a policy matter
which I will bring up on wikipedia-l. If subpages are not supposed to be
supported at all, the $wgNamespacesWithSubpages array fields can simply
be set to 0.

Regards,

Erik
--
FOKUS - Fraunhofer Insitute for Open Communication Systems
Project BerliOS - http://www.berlios.de


from_name: Takuya Murata

subject: [Wikitech-l] mimi-wikipedia

body:
I hardly write e-mails and even post to the mailing-list, so
if I did something wrong, just let me know. Also, I am well
known for terrible speeling  and non-English grammer, please
excuse them too.

I have some proposal to the wikipedia system.

I don't have any worry about the encyclopedical side of
wikipedia. Both quality and coverage have been improving
constantly. It is just fine. But recently I started to worry
about technological side or hosting stuff.

While contents of wikipedia are open-conent and it is nice,
hosting server and  database are not. As we all know the
current server is inadequate to support the huge traffic and
it seems going to be worse and worse.

Now then, here is my proposal. Can we distribute database
and related stuff? Each mimi-wikipedia contains certain
articles and provide both displaying and editing service.
 Search querys are sent to all of mimi-wikipedian then put
the results together in the main server and return it.

The scale of mimi-wikipedia may vary, say 100 artcles to
possibly 10,000. I think there are many people who are
willing to provide diskspaces, including me.

The problem is set up. Surely the current dependency hell
makes hard to host mimi-wikipedia, particularly on windows-
based servers.

Another problem is what if some mimi-wikipedian is down? For
financially, lost of personal interest, whatever reason. My
solution is duplication.

Also this duplication scheme makes wikipedia more reliable
and easier to extend the capacity in terms of hosting.

I don't know if this kind of system is fesible. I don't see
such a site. But if we agree the idea is good, why don't we
try it?

I agree with the guy who suggested pure wikipedia software
written in C (I am sorry I can't remember his name).

Also, if there was some similar proposal before, excuse me.


body:
Folks,

when the whole subpage discussion first came up, Larry Sanger wrote:
"Subpages would be nice, I suppose, for other namespaces, like the Wikipedia
namespace and the User namespace." I have just added namespace-specific subpage
support to Wikipedia. This means that we can now enable subpages selectively for
only the User & Talk namespaces. I suggest doing so.

Currently users are already creating pages like:

  [[User:Eloquence/Wikipedia Manifesto]]
  (not a real page).

With subpage support enabled, it would be possible to just type

  [[/Wikipedia Manifesto]]

on the respective page, and the link would automatically go to the above
page. Furthermore, the "Wikipedia Manifesto" page would provide an automatic
backlink to [[User:Eloquence]].

Similarly; users are archiving talk pages like this:

  [[Talk:Main Page/Archive 1]] [[Talk:Main Page/Archive 2]] [[Talk:Main
Page/Archive 3]]

Again, here we can simply type

  [[/Archive 1]] [[/Archive 2]] [[/Archive 3]]

and have automatic backlinks on the archive pages.

When the new Wikipedia software was developed, it was decided not to support
subpages for the reason that they would disturb the Wikipedia article
structure. I agree with this reasoning, but it is not valid for user and talk
pages. Since we now have the ability to turn on subpages selectively, I see no
reason not to do so. We could also globally enable them on wikis where they
might be useful, e.g. Meta.

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


body:
Jimbo wrote:
> The cost is that we are adding syntax in one part of wikipedia that
> new users will discover and come to expect throughout all of
> wikipedia.  Increasing the befuddlement of newcomers is always a bad
> thing, although it can sometimes be overcome if there is a very very
> strong and compelling reason.

No, it's the other way around. If we only allow subpages without really
supporting them (as we *do now* with archive pages and user subpages), new users
will see this link style: "User:Eloquence/foo" and create similar pages
elsewhere. I have already seen this -- users try to create subpages because they
see them in the user & talk namespace. Others then have to rename these pages.

If we explicitly support subpages, users will *still* have to learn that
they are not supposed to create them elsewhere, but we can provide an automatic
info message that tells them why (not currently implemented, but would be
easy to do). This is because with real subpages, you just have to type "/foo",
and we don't have any articles that start with a "/", so we can autodetect
when people are doing this and provide a warning message.

Using Wikipedia is a learning process; this cannot be avoided. Implementing
subpages properly instead of merely tolerating them makes learning where and
where not to use them easier.

Regards,

Erik

--
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Why is 'CrucifiedChrist' less offensive than a pun on oral
 sex?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Offense is only taken, not given. There is no objective measure of
>offensiveness that I can perform; actual reactions and quanitifable
>results as to how the project is affected are much more convincing to
>me.

This is a good point. There's no way of knowing simply from the
phrase "Crucified Christ" whether the speaker means it as a joke or
as some sort of actual statement of religious belief.

Mormons actually regard the crucifix itself as offensive. They argue
that using it as a religious symbol is tantamount to worshipping the
weapon used to murder Christ. Obviously, most traditional Christian
religions don't share this attitude, but it has a certain logic to it.

I remember taking a Japanese Buddhist on a visit to a Catholic church
once. She walked around the chapel, looking at the depictions of the
stations of the cross, with Jesus dragging the crucifix and being
tortured with his crown of thorns and blood dripping down his
forehead. I don't know if she was "offended," exactly, but she
certainly found it scary.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


body:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:38:39 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer
<maveric149=/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I found this on my meta talk page after I extended a
> ban on an IP that is virtually identical to an IP that
> had already been banned for making a hideous racial
> slur:
>
>> ....
>> Murder of vast numbers of people who believe as you
>> do becomes justified, when you use control of a technology that they
>> don't have, to censor their
>> views on what you are doing, and make it impossible for them to stop you
>> any other way.
>
> I may have been wrong in banning the IP from en.wiki
> but I don't appreciate thinly veiled threats on my
> life.
>
> Can we ban all this users IPs and perhaps call the
> cops?
>
Banning IP's is generally a bad idea. For example, New Zealand's top ISP
has 100,000 users and probably a pool of around 30,000 IP addresses. Odds
are that a user who is banned will be on another IP next time they dial in,
and there are 100,000 potential Wikipedians whou you are at best mystifying
or at worst driving away by rendering them unable to edit should they
happen along on the IP(s) you've banned.
I'm on DSL, with a much more stable IP, but I know that if I want to
change, all I have to do is switch of my router for 10 seconds.

--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Jonathan Walther

body:
On Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 06:51:32PM -0500, rednblack at alum.mit.edu wrote:
>If this is going to become such an issue, might I propose that, to avoid debate
>in the future, we switch to UseRealNames (e.g., your handle is
>FirstnameLastname, or FMLastname)? This, it seems to me, is the only clear way
>to avoid arguments over what is, and isn't, offensive.  I see no reason to
>avoid this; we can facilitate the process by either converting existing
>usernames, or we can just leave it up to people to redirect as they deem
>appropriate.

Far simpler just to say that lewdness, blasphemy, and slurs of all types
are unwelcome here.  Names referring to vices (ie Tokerboy) are borderline,
but until someone complains I don't think most of those who catch the
significance of the name find it offensive.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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body:
On Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 03:44:33PM -0800, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>I concur, with the caveat that in all but a few shocking cases that
>only a twisted mind such as mine could think up anyway, ha ha, I don't
>think that someone coming in with an offensive nickname is enough to
>ban the *person*, particularly on a first offense.  We can just tell
>them that they need to pick a more professional handle.

I am in favor of renaming them summarily.  Or at least changing their
"nickname" that shows up in recent changes, while leaving the actual
login name itself alone.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
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from_name: rednblack at alum.mit.edu

in_reply_to:
Your message of "Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:53:00 GMT."
             <BAY1-F185fdxB7l9OtR0000120d@hotmail.com>

body:
If this is going to become such an issue, might I propose that, to avoid debate
in the future, we switch to UseRealNames (e.g., your handle is
FirstnameLastname, or FMLastname)? This, it seems to me, is the only clear way
to avoid arguments over what is, and isn't, offensive.  I see no reason to
avoid this; we can facilitate the process by either converting existing
usernames, or we can just leave it up to people to redirect as they deem
appropriate.

Of course, nothing prevents some jerk from choosing first name "Screw" and
last name "YerMama", but this would then be a clear violation of policy, and
we would not need to have these lengthy debates. If ever the situation comes
up where the unfortunate John Crapper contributes to wikipedia, we can deal
with such minutia then.

Thoughts?

SaurabhAsthana (Graft)

------
"We cannot buy the Sharon argument that his attacks are a reaction to the
Palestinian violence. And I don't blame the Israelis if they also don't accept
our arguments, that our violence is a reaction to the Israeli violence."
--Ghassan Khatib, PA minister of labor

In message <BAY1-F185fdxB7l9OtR0000120d at hotmail.com>, "james duffy" said:
>>From: Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>
>>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Distasteful names - CrucifiedChrist
>>Date: 27 Jan 2003 23:48:38 -0800
>>
>>On lun, 2003-01-27 at 22:47, Jonathan Walther wrote:
>> > On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 10:37:11PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
>> > >CG used a number of login names from the same IP, including this one.
>> > >All things considered, I'd say it's a huge improvement.
>> >
>> > Blasphemy is as offensive as lewdness.  He is still trying to
>> > deliberately provoke and offend people; hardly what I would consider a
>> > "collegial spirit of mutual respect".
>>
>>The problem with these names is the disruption caused by other
>>Wikipedians taking offense at them.
>>
>>"Cumguzzler" received acrid complaints within hours and generated pages
>>of screed *entirely from other people debating its lack of merits*
>>within a couple days of its first appearence, while "CrucifiedChrist"
>>has been used for almost two weeks *without a peep* from anyone until
>>today.
>>
>>In my book, that's a huge improvement. Now please stop feeding the
>>trolls; we've got an encyclopedia to work on.
>>
>>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>><< signature.asc >>
>
>Actually, Brian, 'CrucifiedChrist' has caused offence; I received five
>private emails about it so far (as well as the Wiki Mail stuff) after I
>mentioned to someone that I thought the term unacceptable.
>
>However people feel 'embarrassed' complaining publicly about it because
>taking offence at religious references might make them seem like far right
>religious nutters. But the people who complained aren't fanatical religious
>folk; two described themselves as non-religious, one a lapsed Roman
>Catholic. It says something about public attitudes to religion (and the
>damage done to religion by the religious right) that they felt uncomfortable
>about complaining publicly and ended up sending me a message saying 'will
>you say something?'
>
>Personally, as another non-religious person, I think CrucifiedChrist is FAR
>MORE OFFENSIVE than Cumguzzler. The latter is merely a childish wordplay on
>sex. CrucifiedChrist is a direct, deliberate mocking of the religious
>beliefs of millions of web users and large numbers of people using Wiki. I
>have been trying to get permission to use a set of pictures for Wiki, but
>was turned down. One of the reasons was that  the person who has ownership
>of the pictures logged on to Wiki, saw references to CrucifiedChrist and
>took offence, arguing that if that is the standard of contributions and
>contributors made to Wiki, Wiki obviously isn't a serious attempt at an
>encyclopedia and he was withdrawing permission which he up to then was on
>the brink of giving. (And so we lost a set of photographs of world heads of
>state and prime ministers.)
>
>So this is not a trivial argument, it is about the respect Wiki shows to ALL
>its contributors and ALL its users. Would it be seen as equally trivial or a
>'huge improvement' if Cumguzzler had changed his username to a term that
>mocked jewish beliefs, agnostic beliefs, feminist beliefs, or that attacked
>the culure and values of African-Americans, Hispanics, etc? NPOV should mean
>equal respect for all. That includes christians. Either EVERY name, no
>matter what the offence caused, is acceptable, or we draw a line and few
>serious websites would turn a blind eye to a contributor who deliberately
>set out to mock the beliefs of many fellow users. So again, I want to find
>out what action Wiki proposes to take about a user who in their username
>mocks the central tenet of beliefs of many people on Wiki. His action
>remains unacceptable and needs to be dealt with.
>
>JT
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
> I don't agree.  We aren't talking about the wisdom of subpages, we are
> talking about the typing shortcut and the linkbacks.  Both are not
> very useful.

We have hundreds of archive links and user subpages, often on pages with
long names. The benefit of shortcuts and linkbacks is far from negligible
as we approach a million pages.

> But we really should discourage them generally by not "supporting"
> them with useless cute features.

The reality is that people are creating them, including yourself:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales/Why_I_oppose_a_cabal
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales/Statement_of_principles

Either you ban subpages entirely, or you support them properly depending
on context. But choosing not to support them to "discourage" their use is
schizophrenic.

Regardless, I primarily added the support for my own use. If you intend to
block this feature on Wikipedia by imperial decree, I don't care much.

Regards,

Erik


body:
> Maybe I'm missing something, but how would this procedure handle the
> situation where other users also would have identically named sub-pages.
>  It is certainly reasonable to expect that many of our busier users
> would have sub-pages named "/archive 1", "/archive 2", "/archive 3", etc.

When you create a subpage by typing [[/archive1]], the actual page created
is [[<current page name>/archive1]], e.g.
[[Talk:Benevolent dictator/archive1]]. On this page, a backlink
automatically points to [[Talk:Benevolent dictator]]. Thus, you do not get
duplicate page names.

Regards,

Erik