subject: [Wikipedia-l] Languages and education

body:
I think also an issue here is developing materials in a language these
people might be more comfortable with, such as Berber (the fact that
Berber isn't really a unified language is a problem). While literacy
might be low, it is obviously much easier for a child (or an adult) to
learn to read first in their native language and next in the other
languages they know.

At the moment however, I think a good solution might be a
mini-Wikireader with pages split between French and Arabic.
Unfortunately our French content and our Arabic content aren't
translations of each other, so perhaps there should be seperate
sections, or it should be two books distributed separately.

Mark

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:41:27 +0900, Guillaume Blanchard
<gblanchard at arcsy.co.jp> wrote:
> Anthere a ?crit :
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >First of all, I wish a happy new year to all who may
> >be concerned.
> >This year, I spent Christmas and New Year Eve in an
> >unusual way, since I was in the Sahara desert (south
> >of Algeria) for 15 days, as an ecotourist.
> >I had a real great time over there, which I will share
> >with Wikipedia in trying to improve many articles
> >related to the areas  I went to, as well as with many
> >pictures.
> >
> >However, I wished to share a couple of additional
> >things/thoughts with you. About languages and
> >education.
> >
> >I spent a little while in Tamanrasset, and discussed
> >with some of it inhabitants, men and women. It is a
> >strange situation, as it cannot be said that people
> >are "poor", in the sense that most have the basics
> >which allow them to live quite happily. The city is
> >growing pretty fast (50 000 unhabitants), but is not
> >sustainable for its water, nor for its food, nor for
> >most of its industrial goods. Most of it is imported
> >from the north of Algeria. The city is essentially
> >living from camels, goats and sheep... and tourism in
> >the surroundings of course. While the city is shared
> >by many ethnies and different nationalities, most
> >people over there are muslims. They speak a mixture of
> >Tuareg language (tamazight or tamahaq) and some local
> >arab which can hardly be recognised by those of us
> >French who learned classical arab in France.
> >
> >One thing surprised me greatly. I thought the majority
> >of Algerians could be said to speak French (since
> >Algeria was previously a french colony). Well, I
> >discovered over there that if all adults have notions
> >of french language, many of them are very very far
> >from fluent. I could speak to no kids under 15, even
> >though I was told that all of them start learning
> >french language at school from the age of 8 (?). So, I
> >went for a little check and discovered that according
> >to statistics, about 62% of Algerian speak decent
> >french (enough for communication), and this number
> >have been increasing in the past years.
> >
> >Now, Tamanrasset is in the most southern part of
> >Algeria, so rather far away from France, though there
> >is still obviously strong French influence. People I
> >met talked with one another in Tamahaq, talk with
> >other Tamanrasset people in a southern arab, speak
> >with us in french, and receive education in classical
> >arab. Guys ! these people manage roughly 4 languages !
> >
> >When France left Algeria, the whole educational system
> >was in french language; the algerian government tried
> >to switch entirely to classical arab over the years,
> >even though there were at that time not enough
> >teachers knowledgeable in classical arab, even though
> >most Algerians do not manage well classical arab, even
> >though there were no educational books in classical
> >arab to teach children. Over the years, the government
> >has tried to impose more and more classical arab, to
> >the dismay of all those speaking berberes languages
> >(such as the Touareg). From my friends in Algers, I
> >know that university education is still partly in
> >french, in particular in scientific and technical
> >domains. But from what I understood, the algerian
> >educational system is in great part a failure, as it
> >is taught in a language that many Algerian do not
> >manage well, as it results in diplomas of little value
> >on european or american market, and as many students
> >end up secondary school with such a poor knowledge in
> >french that they are unable to come to french
> >universities or even to follow well algerian
> >university classes. Possibly, knowing more of english
> >language might help but it seems currently limited.
> >
> >
> >Two things raised my attention greatly.
> >First, a university is currently being built in
> >Tamanrasset. For now, students usually go to Algers to
> >follow upper studies (about 1500 km away, which
> >evidently implies only quite wealthy people can afford
> >this).
> >
> >
> >Second, as we crossed villages in the mountains, we
> >were surrounded by kids, from 6 to 12. Only the eldest
> >could really communicate a bit with us. We had some
> >pens for them, which we distributed. But it was not
> >really what they were looking for. The youngest wanted
> >paper mostly. But all asked for books. Only books. Not
> >food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
> >wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
> >can't read french". But this is what they wanted
> >nevertheless.
> >
> >When I asked to my favorite guide, he told me "they
> >learn french at school, a little bit, but they have no
> >opportunity to practice. Except for a few tourists,
> >who could they talk french to ? At least, with books,
> >they can learn a bit".
> >
> >I suspect the school probably only has a couple of
> >worn out ones. Possibly only a couple of worn out
> >books in arab as well.
> >I dig a couple of my son books to give them. Not much.
> >If I had guessed, it would have been easy to bring a
> >few more.
> >
> >As I understood, analphabetism is rising over there,
> >especially among girls. If the kids do not speak
> >french, their access to university is limited. And the
> >main economical resource of the area is tourism, most
> >tourists being french speaking.
> >
> >Computers in these villages is out of question. They
> >have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
> >long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
> >local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
> >sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
> >email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
> >in Tamanrasset.
> >
> >There might be things to do no ?
> >
> >
> I think the French Wikipedia have some categories good enough to become
> WikiReaders.
> (ie. India, Astronomy, Ancien Egypt, etc.)
>
> Aoineko
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.

body:
We need your user name.

Fred

> From: "John Bradley" <john at ontobus.co.uk>
> Organization: Ontobus
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 23:56:07 -0000
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.
>
> Could someone explain to me which topic I have broken the 3RR rule.
> Jfdwolff has blocked and decided not to answer an email.
> Yours
>
> John Bradley
>
> Loc:  15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Harassing is not OK

body:
Hi Lars,

I agree with you entirely.

However I think it's more complex than that. #wikipedia descended into
total chaos a couple of months ago, when you could call people names
and shout swearwords (you might be surprised that certain people said
these things). However, more recently, the chanops have tightened down
and now law and order have been restored, at least to some extent.

Being off-topic used to be mentioned alot, but people don't seem to
mind much anymore (if you do complain, you might even be directed to
#en.wikipedia), and now it's more of a chat about anything, but mainly
about Wikipedia, and for Wikipedians.

Mark

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:40:42 +0100, Lars Alvik <larsal at stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
> I totalty agree with this, but i also want to put some focus on
> #wikipedia, a few months ago it accualy was a place that one could
> debate with others, but now it's nothing but insults to people that has
> other views of the world. (i'll again apoligze for my bad english.) It
> doesn't serve as an neutral meetingplace for the entire project, no
> matter what their views are on the war in iraq (for example).
>
> mvh.
>
> Lars Alvik
>
> P? 5. jan. 2005 kl. 08.00 skrev <jneden at bellsouth.net>:
>
> > All Wikipedians,
> >
> >> Olve Utne (who is starting to get a bit sick of this
> >> peck-order-oriented
> > list...)
> >
> > I have to agree with Olve. And that is largely why I have not felt
> > like paying attention to wikipedia-l lately.  Sorry I haven't been
> > around to voice my opinions against this idiocy. I do not have clearly
> > defined convictions as to the interactions of both parties here
> > (mainly Mark and YOU, harassment squad), but I am certain that this
> > peck-order rudeness is not what Wikipedia needs to be. In fact, I dare
> > say that this stuff needs to end here and now. If I were completely
> > new to Wikipedia and signed up for wikipedia-l, I'd unsubscribe in a
> > heartbeat. Leave Mark W. alone and get on with your lives.
> >
> > Ooh, and I abbreviated here. Sorry. (Referencing a rude, old e-mail
> > from a certain party which I felt no urge to respond.)
> >
> > Have a great day. Takk, Ovne. Du forst?r Wikipedia-l vel, og jeg er
> > glad i deg for det. N? skal jeg snakke norsk! (GOD it's been too long.
> > Almost two years since I used Norwegian seriously. At least I can tell
> > you something in Norwegian that people will not undertand literally in
> > English. High five for Nordmenn -- we seem to get along well!)
> >
> > Mark, you take care. Sorry I haven't been around. You have my support.
> >
> >  ~ Jeremy
> >
> > Agidoda tsalag, kenv; hla yagiliya wigiquediya. (Funny how my identity
> > is meddled with languages, isn't it?)
> >
> > ----------
> >
> > Dear Yann, Gerard & al.,
> >
> > I have noticed that some people find it amusing (or whatever it is) to
> > harrass (!) Mark W. Please stop with it -- Wikipedia has bigger
> > problems
> > than some of you not agreeing with Mark W. Acceptance of escalated
> > personal attacks is one of them -- and it is not exactly like Mark W.
> > has
> > been proven to have a monopoly on those...
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Olve Utne (who is starting to get a bit sick of this
> > peck-order-oriented
> > list...)
> >
> >
> > At 12:17 04/01/2005 +0000, Yann Forget wrote:
> >> Hi Mark, [...] Please stop spreading FUD. Requests are not well
> >> received
> >> when they are sent by YOU, that the point.
> >
> > Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >> You are like an old record, stuck in the same phrases time and again.
> >> You
> >> have annoyed and insulted many people and you are unappologetic about
> >> it.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Camille Constans

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: stats Webalizer

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit :

>Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
>
>>Yes. Not enough cpu / disk space to generate statistics. iirc the last
>>attempt resulted in a total block of the whole cluster. Hopefully one
>>server will be dedicated to handling logs in a near future and webalizer
>>stats will then be build again.
>>
>>
>
>I strongly support the idea of a machine for handling logs,
>statistics, and research into those things.  I think we could learn a
>lot about how the community really functions by studying logs, and the
>traffic stats are important for us to understand and project our
>growth patterns.
>
>My question to wikitech-l: what sort of machine should we use for
>this?  I am thinking that a fully loaded dual Opteron is overkill, but
>a typical apache is too small?
>
>Probably we'd want to have a lot of disk space, possibly RAID 5 as the
>best balance between storage space, redundancy, and speed.  (We don't
>want to lose a huge chunk of data to a bad hard drive, but on the
>other hand we don't need absolute speed either.)
>
>Probably we'd want a decent CPU, but it doesn't have to be top-notch,
>since these are batch jobs and the machine should not be doing
>anything else anyway.
>
>Your thoughts?
>
>--Jimbo
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>

A storage server like
http://www.siliconmechanics.com/i1547/serial-ata-storage-server.php
would be nice I think. We could use it to store logs, backup, compute
logs, compute stats

Not really need to be fast a config example ::

Dual Xeon 2,4Ghz, 1GB
12 seagate 400GB drive (not sure we need all this space)

raid 5 with 1 (2?) hot spare, that mean with 1 hot spare 10x400GB = 4To
of space to store logs and backup (backup take more and more place every
day, commons yet eat ~6GB)

cost : 9359$

with 12x250GB, cost fall to 6335$ , with 1 hot spare 10x250GB = 2,5To

My 2 cents


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for Amis Wiktionary

body:
Hello Pochung,

This is a strange coincidence because 3 days ago I was wondering when
somebody would start a Wikipedia or a Wiktionary in a Taiwanese
aboriginal language. It seems logical that Amis would be the first
because it has the largest population.

I have a few things to say.

First of all, you don't need to use a Traditional interface - you can
translate the interface to Amis. (not sure if there's a way to say
"click here" in Amis, but you could always use Mandarin words when
there is no Amis word, or you could coin a new term)

Second of all, I think it will be a good idea to divide efforts
between a Wikipedia and a Wiktionary. There are many similarities
between the projects, but on Wikipedia you can give much more
information about a subject, while in Wiktionary you give information
about the word itself (ie pronunciation, translations, definition).
Perhaps it would be a good idea to get a "head start" with the
Wiktionary until you have a "working lexicon" of 500 words, and then
split efforts and start more on a Wikipedia.

While it is more common to start first with a Wikipedia, there have
been proposals recently to 'force' or suggest people to start with
Wiktionary, because it is less "intensive" and is better to get
acquainted with the system.

However, perhaps it will be a good idea to have an article base of 25
or 50 articles on an Amis Wikipedia before concentrating efforts
entirely on Wiktionary - good, solid articles about things relevant to
Amis people, such as Taiwan, Chinese language, Amis, Amis language,
Tayal, Tsou, traditional culture items, and also basic articles on men
and women, some plants common in the Amis area, and some animals.

I think that in general it is a Very Good Thing that a project should
be started for Amis, as it sets an example for other languages in a
similar situation, and provides an outlet for knowledge of Amis people
and a place to use exclusively Amis online.

Mark

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:15:20 +0800, Pochung Chen <pcchen at phys.nthu.edu.tw> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
>   We would like to open a Wiktionary for the Amis language. Amis is an
> Austronesian language used by the Amis -- one of the Austronesian
> people in Taiwan. The Amis account for about one third of Taiwan's
> indigenous population (i.e. 130 thousand), however, many of the younger
> generation do not speak the language and till now there is still no
> exact ststistic report of the number of real speakers.
>
>   There are two prevailing writing systems of this language: the
> Presbyterian Church system and the International Phonetic Symbol
> system, the later is used only within the academic circle. We would
> like to edit a Wiktionary which basically employs the Presbyterian
> Church system but also notes the IPS so that readers can also know the
> exact pronounciations.
>
>   At this moment there are at least three people who are willing to
> commit to this project. They are Nakao Eki, Afah Lisin, and Tai-ni
> Tsou. The former two are native speakers and the later two as
> ethnographers are also familiar with the academic Amis writing system.
> Pektiong Tan (zh-min-nan:pektiong) will help those people to get
> familiar with the wikipedia system.
>
>   We would prefer to set the default interface language to be Mandarin
> with traditional character used in Taiwan (zh-tw) since most of the
> potential user of this wiktionary can read Mandarin with traditional
> character.
>
>   Proposed domain name:
>   http://amis.wiktionary.org/
>
>   Language tag for Amis:
>   ISO 639-2: N.A.
>   ISO 639-3 (Draft): Ami
>   SIL: ALV
>   RFC-3066: i-ami
>
>   Sincerely,
>   Nakao Eki,
>   Afah Lisin,
>   Tai-ni Tsou,
>   Pektiong Tan
>
> Some info about Taiwanese aborigine:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Choosing interface?

body:
Nope, you can choose an interface language now.

Unfortunately for many Wikipedias, this uses the LanguageXX.php file
and NOT whatever might be in the mediawiki namespace on that Wikipedia
- thus you can't view the interface in Kannada, or Navajo, or etc...

Mark

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:10:00 -0500, Stephen Forrest
<stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:31:42 +0100, James R. Johnson
> <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > I read in a recent e-mail (I think about Catalan or some other new language)
> > that you can choose the interface for your wiki.  How so?  What kind of
> > customizations are available?
>
> Er, do you mean skins and the like?  If so, go to:
>
> http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences
>
> (for example) and follow any of the links starting with "User data",
> etc.  For example, select 'Scynn' (skin) and switch between Nostalgia
> and Cologne Blue?  The latter is my favourite thus far.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] FT on Wikipedia (requires subscription)


subject: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.

body:
So is he unblocked now?

Fred

> From: Nicholas Knight <nknight at runawaynet.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:24:47 -0800
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.
>
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>> We need your user name.
>
> He gave it to you. "Irate".
>
> From looking at it, I think Jfdwolff has misinterpreted the 3RR as
> meaning *block* on third revert, not "max 3 reverts".
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Old Norse

body:
Slander: n. 1) [law] The utterance of defamatory statements injurious
to the reputation or well-being of a person. 2) A malicious statement
or report. tr.v. To utter damaging reports about. intr.v. To utter or
spread slander. From Middle English sclaundre, from Old French
esclandre, variant of escandle, from Latin scandalum ("scandal").

Mark

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:33:13 -0800, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> Mark Williamson stated for the record:
>
> > Apparently you do not realise that Yann has indeed slandered against
> > me. He attacked me verbally with no provocation.
>
> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
>
> --
>   Sean Barrett     | When I become evil overlord, I will
>   sean at epoptic.com | dress in bright and cheery colors, and
>                    | so throw my enemies into confusion.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: foundation-l

from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Foundation-l] Languages and education

body:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> (...)
>>
>> all asked for books. Only books. Not
>> food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
>> wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
>> can't read french". But this is what they wanted
>> nevertheless.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> Computers in these villages is out of question. They
>> have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
>> long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
>> local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
>> sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
>> email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
>> in Tamanrasset.
>>
>> There might be things to do no ?

On 5 Jan 2005, at 14:58, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

> This is absolutely fascinating to me.  Just really fascinating.
>
> I think this is the kind of knowledge we have to have, knowledge of
> real conditions in real places, in order to be able to help
> effectively.
>
> --Jimbo

Seconded.

Caution may be advised however:
If, say, we get something going and distribute books ''from France'',
this could easily be seen by local (Algerian) politicians/nationalists
as "some French-American organization is trying to subvert our
education system by hijacking our children's literacy development."
Very bad mojo/karma/blood. Yes, I agree with Anthere's (implied)
suggestions, but if we even try to do something, we should be very
diplomatic about it and thread very carefully. Make sure our
non-affiliation and charitable nature is very much known and possibly
involve the (Algerian) national through local government and/or kindly
ask them for advice or even permission. Make sure our attitude does NOT
get to be: "What a crappy country and f*&ked-up government/education
system. Heck, we can do this SO much better." And make sure local (ie.
Algerian) people KNOW that that's not our attitude. Just asking people
nicely and showing them that we fully respect them will often work
wonders. And make sure that they know that they can become Wikipedians,
too.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Languages and education


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project
	Has Been Around For A While

body:
I, too, have noticed that articles on the Paiute people, their
language, etc. are very lacking, however I don't know a lot about
them.

If I were you, I would tell my brother "The GREAT thing about
Wikipedia is that YOU are allowed to fix that, and are invited to do
so. That's how the good articles became good articles - they started
out short and lacking, and then somebody like YOU found them and added
to them." ... sort of like Frankenstein's Monster...

Mark

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:40:22 -0700, Ronald Chmara <ron at opus1.com> wrote:
> On Jan 5, 2005, at 2:28 AM, Andre Engels wrote:
> > This seems to be exactly the problem Larry Sanger talks about - We
> > don't care whether somebody is a renowned expert on a subject or has
> > just read a few lines related to a subject in the past. If they can
> > write it down, we consider them equal.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_%28bureaucratic%29
>
> Certainly, a lack of expertise is a problem in managing fine details,
> but it does not require an expert in aviation to add to a wikipedia
> article that 'Air Force One is a plane'. The  problem I think, is not
> the insertion of facts by non-experts, but the use of (or omission of)
> facts by POV folks to drive a given agenda.
>
> > A second fallacy I see in this message is that it equates factual
> > correctness with credibility. There's more than just factual
> > correctness to make a good article, there is also balance. Getting
> > experts is not what helps here (although it helps a bit, because they
> > are supposed to know about the subject, and thus notice missing
> > portions), but we should recognize the problem as being one.
>
> My older brother despises some wikipedia sections that are written in
> his field (cultural anthropology, with specific emphasis on the paiute
> people), as he is an expert in that specific area, and finds the
> articles "shallow", "without depth and nuance", and "lacking in a
> deeper explanation". They are written by "non-experts", and thus make
> "factual and comprehension errors".
>
> The articles are also written for *use* by non-experts.... So, I asked
> my brother how many pages it would take to correct the errors, and he
> pointed me towards his latest body of work, over 500 pages, and that's
> just the historical *sites* of the paiute.
>
> So, what is wikipedia? Is it *meant* to be the equivalent of an
> encyclopedia, with terse explanations? Is it meant to be a vast
> repository of all that is known, without omissions of fact, or
> omissions of a given POV?
>
> -Bop
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.

body:
Near as I can tell it was Clitoris, see Wikipedia:Administrators'
noticeboard. Block was done by Jfdwolff but on the request of Violetriga.

I have left a few notes so far.

Fred

> From: "John Bradley" <john at ontobus.co.uk>
> Organization: Ontobus
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 23:56:07 -0000
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.
>
> Could someone explain to me which topic I have broken the 3RR rule.
> Jfdwolff has blocked and decided not to answer an email.
> Yours
>
> John Bradley
>
> Loc:     15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone:    +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
Near as I can tell it was Clitoris, see Wikipedia:Administrators'
noticeboard. Block was done by Jfdwolff but on the request of Violetriga.
Both of you seem to have reverted three times but not more.

I have left a few notes so far.

Fred

> From: "Jeff Cook" <jeffc at gamebaboons.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:47:42 -0600
> To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.
>
> Hello all,
>
> The blocked user page says we can appeal here about a block, so I'm doing
> that. I (User:Cookiecaper) was blocked for violation of the three-revert rule.
> This was in reaction to my edits on the pages Clitoris and Clitoris
> (censored). I feel obligated to point out that I did not violate the
> three-revert rule. I reverted only three times as Wikipedia policy mandates
> (see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clitoris_%28censored%29&action=histo
> ry and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clitoris&action=history).
> Please unblock. My IP address is 69.240.242.255 :)
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Truly,
> Jeff "cookiecaper" Cook
> jeffc at gamebaboons.com
> AOL Instant Messenger Screen Name  iownyou000
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Forking the Wiki

body:
Scott Nelson a ?crit:

> Unless the foundation is considering getting into the radioactive and/or
> nuclear weapon business? The French certainly do very well with it, and
> you could probably fund the entire Foundation with a couple of sales for
> quite some time.
> --
> Scott Nelson
>
> Living in a nuclear free zone.

You are not exactly improving the situation Scott.

May I kindly ask you TWO to drop it off ?

Thanks a lot.

Anthere


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Forking the Wiki


from_name: Jeff Cook

subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
Hello all,

The blocked user page says we can appeal here about a block, so I'm doing that. I (User:Cookiecaper) was blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. This was in reaction to my edits on the pages Clitoris and Clitoris (censored). I feel obligated to point out that I did not violate the three-revert rule. I reverted only three times as Wikipedia policy mandates (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clitoris_%28censored%29&action=history and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clitoris&action=history). Please unblock. My IP address is 69.240.242.255 :)

Thank you very much.

Truly,
Jeff "cookiecaper" Cook
jeffc at gamebaboons.com
AOL Instant Messenger Screen Name  iownyou000


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
On 5 Jan 2005, at 17:00, Scott Nelson wrote:

> Can this be taken off list?
>
> This conversation long since lost any relevance to the wiki project.
>

On 5 Jan 2005, at 18:04, Scott Nelson wrote:

> Unless the foundation is considering getting into the radioactive
> and/or nuclear weapon business? The French certainly do very well with
> it, and you could probably fund the entire Foundation with a couple of
> sales for quite some time.
> --
> Scott Nelson
>
> Living in a nuclear free zone.

Scott --

Do you think that publicly lobbing politically loaded insults at "the
other side" is a good way of getting people to stop arguing/defending
their political POV in public?

You can ask for this to go off-list in a neutral fashion.
You initially did that, fair enough. (NB: you and everyone's welcome to
post to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ropers ).
But you then turned around and threw a biggie into the opposite
direction. This effectively makes it impossible for the other side to
gracefully end a political thread (to the escalation of which I
probably contributed, which may not have been wise). The other side
will feel that if they don't defend their view, then you've won and
they've lost. This is like a partisan talk host who finishes with an
extreme partisan insult and then says: "Sorry. We've JUST run out of
time." and proceeds to signal for the targeted party to be cut out and
taken off the air. If you were the butt of such a "joke", would you
take it?

a not holier than thou (really)
--
Jens Ropers


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
No replies. I have unblocked the user.

Fred

> From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:32:15 -0700
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.
>
> Near as I can tell it was Clitoris, see Wikipedia:Administrators'
> noticeboard. Block was done by Jfdwolff but on the request of Violetriga.
> Both of you seem to have reverted three times but not more.
>
> I have left a few notes so far.
>
> Fred


subject: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.

body:
No replies. I have unblocked the user.

Fred

> From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:29:44 -0700
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.
>
> Near as I can tell it was Clitoris, see Wikipedia:Administrators'
> noticeboard. Block was done by Jfdwolff but on the request of Violetriga.
>
> I have left a few notes so far.
>
> Fred
>
>> From: "John Bradley" <john at ontobus.co.uk>
>> Organization: Ontobus
>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 23:56:07 -0000
>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>> Subject: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.
>>
>> Could someone explain to me which topic I have broken the 3RR rule.
>> Jfdwolff has blocked and decided not to answer an email.
>> Yours
>>
>> John Bradley
>>
>> Loc:     15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
>> Phone:    +44 (0)151 708 7238
>> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
>> WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: John Lee

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
actionforum at comcast.net wrote:

>-------------- Original message --------------
>
>
>>actionforum at comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Shall we say one abuse per month per sysop, use it strategically?
>>>
>>>
>>Perhaps you could show me where that came from in "absent a pattern of
>>abuse" ?
>>
>>
>
>That comes from making excuses such as "being human" and he was "baited", which look quite reusable, since sysops will still be human in the future and may be "baited" again.  However, it wasn't just your statement, but the general sense of  "deference" to other sysops.  The sysop community should act as checks and balances upon each other, quickly correcting questionable actions.  Their job is protect the community, not just from disruptive behavior below, but from abuses by each other.
>                                               -- Silverback
>
>
While I agree with that, I disagree that much change needs to be made to
the sysop policy. I don't know much about the crux of this dispute, but
I don't see any problems with sysops abusing their powers. Obviously
those who believe in the cabal and/or enjoy nitpicking every mistake a
sysop makes would disagree, but I feel that the only thing wrong with
our dispute resolution now is the speed of arbitration, which is
apparenlty being corrected even as I type. Furthermore, "one abuse per
month" would formalise the possibility of sysops blocking people for
frivolous reasons while still not accounting for genuine mistakes. I
personally think overly specific regulations like these are ridiculous
and open too many loopholes, but that's just me.

John Lee
([[User:Johnleemk]])


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: special characters

body:
I got that in the ang.wikipedia.org while using, but I am using Firefox
right now, and there's not a problem.  Don't get me wrong, just about every
piece of software I get I try to get Microsoft, but I have to use Firefox
for the wiki...and I can use tabs to open multiple pages for editing at
once.  If IE had tabs, and could do the special characters, I'd go back
though.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Giuseppe DAngelo
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:04 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: special characters

I hate to interrupt important matters of state with a trivial concern, but
while I was in the Catalan wikipedia today I went to use the special
characters in the copyright area of the edit page and only managed to invoke
some gobbledygook.  I ignored it at the time, but then found that it was
doing the same thing in the Sicilian wikipedia.  Has anyone else come across
this?  Has anyone got any tips?  Have both the Catalan and the Sicilians
gone awry somewhere along the way or is this universal?  Appreciative of any
helpful thoughts.  Salutamu.

pippudoz

---------------------------------
Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger E' molto pi? divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam,
Giochi, Rubrica
 Scaricalo ora!
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Choosing interface?

body:
I read in a recent e-mail (I think about Catalan or some other new language)
that you can choose the interface for your wiki.  How so?  What kind of
customizations are available?

James


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Languages and education

body:
Jens Ropers a ?crit:
>> Anthere wrote:
>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>> all asked for books. Only books. Not
>>> food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
>>> wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
>>> can't read french". But this is what they wanted
>>> nevertheless.
>>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>> Computers in these villages is out of question. They
>>> have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
>>> long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
>>> local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
>>> sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
>>> email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
>>> in Tamanrasset.
>>>
>>> There might be things to do no ?
>>
>
> On 5 Jan 2005, at 14:58, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>> This is absolutely fascinating to me.  Just really fascinating.
>>
>> I think this is the kind of knowledge we have to have, knowledge of
>> real conditions in real places, in order to be able to help
>> effectively.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>
>
> Seconded.
>
> Caution may be advised however:
> If, say, we get something going and distribute books ''from France'',
> this could easily be seen by local (Algerian) politicians/nationalists
> as "some French-American organization is trying to subvert our education
> system by hijacking our children's literacy development." Very bad
> mojo/karma/blood. Yes, I agree with Anthere's (implied) suggestions, but
> if we even try to do something, we should be very diplomatic about it
> and thread very carefully. Make sure our non-affiliation and charitable
> nature is very much known and possibly involve the (Algerian) national
> through local government and/or kindly ask them for advice or even
> permission. Make sure our attitude does NOT get to be: "What a crappy
> country and f*&ked-up government/education system. Heck, we can do this
> SO much better." And make sure local (ie. Algerian) people KNOW that
> that's not our attitude. Just asking people nicely and showing them that
> we fully respect them will often work wonders. And make sure that they
> know that they can become Wikipedians, too.
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com

To go further in what you say...

One guy in our group has been to this place many times already. Well, he
worked there for a long time in infrastructure. He told me there is
currently an undergoing work intending to have some french people train
algerian teachers to teach french. I can actually understand that a
village of 500 inhabitants does not necessarily have a teacher good
enough in french to teach it efficiently. My own english teachers were
far from great sometimes :-)
Though backshish does not really exist at "lower" levels in Algeria,
these people trying to organise training had to "participate" heavily at
"upper" level :-(
Though the Algerian government has been trying for many years to strip
anything french from their country (in particular the language, from
education, administration etc...) (it is just a factual comment, not a
criticism, it is extremely understandable reaction from a country just
liberated from colonialism), a reform is under way in the education system.

The education system reform is such that french is taught two years
sooner than before, english teaching is also one year sooner and more
room is given to Tamazight. This goes along with other changes, and if I
remember well, the Algerian government recently decided to try to get
nearer France than before. There seems to be a wish to really maintain
the multilingualism of the country. In any cases, the main three points
are 1) the education system is not working very well 2) a reform is
under way and this reform intends to leave more room to
french/english/tamazight and 3) they apparently lack educational resources.

Now it sure would be wrong I think that the previous colonial country or
the current (add any description of the USA that might fit in your
opinion here) appears overbearing/critical etc...
Similarly, one of the book I had available when I was over there was a
sort of children tales from the Bible. Stories from ancient books.
Believe it or not, I DID NOT offer the Bible to these 100% muslim kids.
I do not think it would have been appreciated, even if the stories are
real nice and adapted to their age ;-)

Obviously Algerian teachers and Algerian decision makers should be
involved one way or another. In any cases, Algeria is a policy state, so
you do not import things just as you wish (I will avoid telling you much
about the 2 hours we spent in a gendarmerie in Ideles, JUST because we
needed to purchase matches, bread and coffee in the village after 10
days in the wild. The gendarmes did not need to check who we were, we
were obviously not illegal traders hiding ourselves behind our 8 kids
age 3 to 13. Nevertheless, they checked :-)). Very gentle people, but I
wonder if their bureaucracy might not be worse than the french one.

Possibly as well, if we were thinking of books (thinking wikijunior
books we are currently trying to do), we could envision them to be
bilingual or trilingual. Or at least, we could envision to distribute
books in different languages. Having the books include arab resource
might help.

The arabic wikipedia is quite small as well, but it exists and ar
wikipedians should get involved. They need certainly to be slightly
bigger. As soon as ar is involved, and arabs leaving there are involved,
there should not be so much fear of a sort of imperialism/colonialism. I
hope.

Just thoughts.


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Greek pages disappearing

body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Jan 5, 2005, at 8:17 AM, Muke Tever wrote:
>> Pages with Greek titles, that used to exist and are still listed in
>> [[special:allpages]], are coming up empty on load, and the wiki is
>> marking
>> links to them as red.
>>
>> I have seen this happening on la: and more intermittently on en: --
>> is this happening anywhere else, and is there a cause for it?
>
> Probably old non-normalized titles. Can you please prepare a complete
> list?

http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/???????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/???
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/???
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/???
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/?????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/???????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/??????
http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/????

Pages that *do* still appear are [[??????????]], [[?]], [[?????]], [[?????]],
[[?????]], [[????????]], [[?????]], [[?????]], [[?????]], [[??]], by which I
gather that the broken pages are those that contain characters with and only
with the oxia...

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


from_name: Josh Gerdes

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project
 Has Been Around For A While

body:
Traroth wrote:
>  --- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> a ?crit :
>
>>Pas d'inqui?tude Traroth. NSK est un gentil SDF
>>couchant sous les ponts.
>>
>>Ant
>>
>
>
> Il ferait mieux d'acheter ? manger plut?t que de
> glander dans les cybercaf?s, dans ce cas... :)
>
> Traroth
>
>
>
>
>
>
> D?couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails !
> Cr?ez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/

C'est vrai, la nourriture est plus important que l'Internet. ;-)

Josh Gerdes
(en:User:JoshG)


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] STill not back,

body:
Sorry, that's an unacceptable option. You don't get to make demands.  Nobody gets to make demands.

RickK

John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
I still have not hear from your administrator jdfwolff about why he's blocked
me.

For every minute I am blocked for I demand that Jdfwolff be blocked for 10
minutes and that he have his privileges withdraw he is obviously triger
happy and unfit to be left in charge of anything.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today!


subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
Thank you very much. :)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Bauder" <fredbaud at ctelco.net>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

> No replies. I have unblocked the user.
>
> Fred
>
>> From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net>
>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:32:15 -0700
>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.
>>
>> Near as I can tell it was Clitoris, see Wikipedia:Administrators'
>> noticeboard. Block was done by Jfdwolff but on the request of Violetriga.
>> Both of you seem to have reverted three times but not more.
>>
>> I have left a few notes so far.
>>
>> Fred
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
--- Magos?nyi ?rp?d <mag at bunuel.tii.matav.hu> wrote:
> I cannot see what should be the difference between words in wikipedia and
> wiktionary beyond that wiktionary should have links to other words in
> other languages, which can easily put into wikipedia in a
> non-obstructive manner.

The difference is that an entry in a dictionary is about a word while an entry
in an encyclopedia is about the actual thing the word names. So while the
Wiktionary entry called 'dog' is about the word dog, the Wikipedia entry is
about the animal known by that name.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising Drive, January 2005

body:
--- Dori <slowpoke at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think it would be a good idea to have a fundraising drive so
> close to the tsunami disaster (not likely to be successful or seen in
> a good light due to the visibility of Wikipedia articles on it)

I'm inclined to agree and think we would have a more successful fund drive by
postponing it a couple weeks (early February).

We will likely need about $70K just for servers this quarter (last quarter we
budgeted for $50K and have about $20K left for that - with the developers keen
on using it ASAP). That figure does not include hosting and other expenses.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Fundraising Drive, January 2005

body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I do think we have enough to wait till february, but Mav could tell us
> more about this. I think he said he would be back this week.

We have about $20K left over from last quarter's server fund. That would give
us one or two good server purchases. I have no idea how the other budget items
look (Terry needs to send me the bank statements).

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
--- Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, um, no matter how fun french/american/little green men from mars
> bashing may be; how about we go back to the idea of wikipeople, what's
> wrong with it? Its been around for quite a while and hasnt got up yet.
> Why? We already have content to put into it (11/09wiki) and it could
> tie up some loose ends, so what are the objections to it? The only
> objection i have heard so far is that it would turn into one big flame
> war (something i disagree with). Any other objecitons?

Up to this point there has not been enough interest in it and no one person has
been leading the charge and motivating people into being interested. In short,
Wikipeople needs a champion. I've put forth my ideas for the project at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimorial and others have done so at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipeople but nobody has been pushing for this
in a consistent way.

So it has been a back-burner idea. Perhaps now is the time to put Wikipeople
through the same process Wikinews went through to be established - that would
show if the Wikimedia community is ready for the idea.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


subject: [Foundation-l] Cafepress shop updated

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've updated the Wikipedia/Wikimedia shop at
> http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia
>
> There's a few new Wikipedia products, including an updated tile coaster
> with the new skin. There's also a new section of products featuring the
> Wikimedia Foundation logo.

And let's not forget the magnificent Wikipedia thong! :)
http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia.16059824

Wikpedia =!sexy?

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Cafepress shop updated


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [Foundation-l] Cafepress shop updated

body:
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 23:29:24 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer >
> And let's not forget the magnificent Wikipedia thong! :)
> http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia.16059824

I wonder if any of those have actually sold.

--Slowking Man


subject: [Foundation-l] Cafepress shop updated


subject: [Wikipedia-l] On ang:

body:
We even have an article on Age of Empires (Ieldu R?ca)!

Ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ieldu_R?ca

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of jneden at bellsouth.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:34 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] On ang:

I have to say that the ang: looks like it will be a very useful tool to
understanding Old English, as the ,,w?sd?mb?c'' ties Old English into topics
well familiar to modern English speakers. I commend it for existing.
Finally, something other than Beowulf. :-)

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: John Bradley

subject: [WikiEN-l] User Irate here.

body:
Could someone explain to me which topic I have broken the 3RR rule.
Jfdwolff has blocked and decided not to answer an email.
		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


body:
--- Shaun MacPherson <shaun_macpherson2001 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Larry Sanger believes that the solution to make
> Wikipedia more credible are with experts.  You can see
> a good article descriping his criticisms here (
> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/03/144207&tid=95&tid=1
> ) posted on Jan 3, 2004.

I respect Larry and what he did to help Wikipedia along in its first year. But
I will never just assume that somebody with a PhD is right since many PhDs all
too often are not; I've come across and know of a good many PhDs who have axes
to grind and who have pet theories to push.

NPOV is a much better guarantee of accuracy than trusting a supposed expert
(although I do highly value feedback from field experts - I just don't take
their ideas as the last word).

Many in academia are used to being the gatekeepers and stewards of
information. Wiki opens those gates to anybody with an Internet connection. So
many in academia will always recoil in horror at the mere concept - that is
their problem, their failing, not ours.

That said, we can and should continue to find ways to make our articles better.
Milestone snapshots (aka Wikipedia 1.0) selected via a credible process would
help a great deal toward that (as the FAC/featured article process already has
for the best articles we have).

> The thing holding this project back, and ultimately
> Wikipedia from sheading the skin of being
> 'noncredible' is the lack of intelligent foot/end
> notes.  A way to format an article with autonumbering
> endnotes for crossreferencing is lacking.

Yes, we need to encourage referencing of articles and an auto-note feature
would help a great deal.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Allan Crossman

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
I wrote:

 > > Very well. I'll put in a request for de-sysoping.

TBSDY writes:

 > ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is absolutely NO call for this. I will NOT
 > support this, unless Evercat absolutely wants this to happen.

It's already done. :-)

Actually I had a nice email from Libertas and I fear that I did indeed
gravely misjudge her, so that makes my actions even more questionable.

--
Allan Crossman - a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk
The Moon is Waning Crescent (26% of Full)


from_name: Scott Nelson

subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
On Jan 5.2005, at 22:08, Robin Shannon wrote:

> how about we go back to the idea of wikipeople, what's
> wrong with it?

Why would these people not just be included in the Wikipedia?
Encyclopedia's are supposed to be the cumulative sum total of man's
knowledge: the major reason for excluding John Smith in the past has
been the cost of printing - there's an inherent limitation.

Wikipedia doesn't have this limitation: there's a  marginal cost for
adding an entry. Why wouldn't you just add these entries to the
Wikipedia? People searching specifically for these people would find
them; people searching for victims of an event such as nine-eleven
would find them (either by finding the master entry in a search and
then following a link, or by searching for the specific person)

> Its been around for quite a while and hasnt got up yet.
> Why? We already have content to put into it (11/09wiki) and it could
> tie up some loose ends, so what are the objections to it?

Separating information into needless categories would be my only
"objection", and I use the word cautiously. It's not really an
objection, just a philosophy: I'd rather have life's information in one
single source, with a good search engine (i.e. well meta-tagged data or
really effective search) than have 100 sources.

Of course, I realize the former might be a pipe dream, but I still
think it's a good dream. Robarts library almost fulfilled it for me for
a while.
--
Skot Nelson
skot at penguinstorm.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
--- Scott Nelson <scott at penguinstorm.com> wrote:
> Why would these people not just be included in the Wikipedia?

Because encyclopedias only deal with notable people, things and events. And no,
this is not just a matter of space but about the goal and purpose of that type
of reference work.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Proposed order for Jan 5

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ricky Beam wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
>>For switches, I got a close friend working for a french ISP that order
>>most of its stuff from brookers. Namely:
>>
>> http://www.digitalwarehouse.com/
>> http://www.atlantixglobal.com/
>> http://www.networkhardware.com/
>
>
> Not to nit-pick, but Network Hardware Resale doesn't sell new cisco
> equipment -- or they didn't when I dealt with them 1-2 years ago.
> (It would appear all 3 of those are used/referb equipment dealers.)
>
> As for discounts, any authorized cisco dealer can get 30-40% off.

Yup ricky, all three sell used/referb equipment, still it is a good way
to get cheap prices. Means we can spend more money on servers.

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
"This signature is a virus. Copy me in yours to spread it."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFB3Hz7pmyHQ2O4INERAlAkAJ4mKbgW+kg5Yy6myFTPIhyVLcgW3QCfeUOF
uhRxP9YcOsj9ZbrcwDIuhxc=
=J3qV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikitech-l] dns entry names

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,

Actually our servers are listed as A records in wikimedia.org. domain
which is fine as we have everything in one point of presence (POP).

With the 3 new squids located in Paris, France, we now probably want to
set up subdomains for each POP to get things separate. Maybe in 2 or 3
years we will have servers spread everywhere in the world (read: total
domination).

So I think it is a good idea to start right NOW with a good DNS
convention and stick with it. DNS changes/migration is a really boring
and probably never completed completly so we want to avoid it.

Sometime ago I posted my idea about dns naming on:
  http://wp.wikidev.net/DNS_scratchpad#Naming_scheme_propositions

Can sys admin post their ideas / proposals there please ? Then we willbe
able to chat about it and set it up.

cheers,

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
"This signature is a virus. Copy me in yours to spread it."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFB3H5fpmyHQ2O4INERApNRAJ4k0c2rCoplhakeLYO46C9CfmPpgwCglXwq
U320m/x6ctHKCer2UWCMlvg=
=Lf4r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


body:
Well, this is all really interesting. This is exactly what we need.I looked at your website, and quickly at two of the books, and I was really impressed.
I was impressed by the amount of work by a relative little number of people... but I also thought of one of our french editor, a retiree, currently importing the entirety of his courses on "tribologie" (lubricants) in wikipedia/wikibooks.

We indeed may have a huge amount of knowledge in the encyclopedia, but to do textbooks, we need to stick to the local curriculum, and this can basically only be done by a local teacher/professor (local is related to nation in my mind :)). They exactly know how to organise the book and which content to fit in.

And this is precisely what you are doing...

I would like to know more about how your organisation intends to finance these books, and MOSTLY what you can foresee in terms of distribution.

Are you on irc so that we can discuss this real time ?

Anthere

------

Hi everyone

I would like to add a little to this discussion.

I am from South Africa, which is one of the African
countries in better shape, though things are not
completely rosey.

Africa, in general, is in a bad way (really bad
depending on where you look, Darfur, Congo, Liberia,
etc.) but I think that for once there is really a glimmer
of hope. For the first time African's have been trying,
I'll admit success is still way off, to solve Africa's
problems. Its not possible to do it alone but the mindset
has finally changed. I am prepared to discuss this at length but
its not the purpose of my email - I just want to set a scene.

In Southern Africa there is peace for the first time. Angola's
civil war very recently ended, Namibia is peaceful, Botswana has no
prospects of war, Mozambique fought itself to a standstill and now
there is peace (peace != schools, money, infrastructure etc.), Swaziland
and Lesotho are also peaceful and so is South Africa. Zimbabwe has
some issues but largely Southern Africa is stable and so now is the
prime opportunity to lay a foundation for lasting peace which will hopefully
spread north.

How does this tie in with your discussion, well I feel that a key
area for solid peace is to stimulate education - Africa needs teachers,
doctors, engineers, nurses etc. and the best thing for Africa is that
they come from Africa and not be visitors as part of an international
aid program (I think that aid is very necessary but its just not a sustainable
solution).

So languages and education - well an organisation like wikimedia can help
a stack with education. No computers in rural villages I agree but I have shown
that (http://www.nongnu.org/fhsst) science textbooks can be reduced in cost
by an order of magnitude. This can only help stretch those limited education
budgets in Africa much further. The content we have written as part of FHSST
will be migrated into WikiBooks very soon - I am working on it but Latex2Wiki
isn't the simplest mapping I've ever seen.

Due to the colonies that once existed free textbooks in English, French and Portuguese
could make a huge impact across Africa. If they are cheap (we estimate $3 per copy of
our Physics book - hard colour cover and bound) then its easier to distribute
them, raise enough money and save money for training of teachers and other resources.

WikiBooks and its large user base could very quickly help to produce such texts which
could really make a difference ( I would start in Southern Africa where things are more stable
and then move North).

And we are workign from the inside - we are an organisation within AFrica
releasing books - its not a case of Europeans rocking up (again ;) and telling
everyone how its supposed to be done.

Just my 2 cents worth (well maybe a bit more).

Cheers,

Mark

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today!


subject: [Foundation-l] Cafe shop

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've updated the Wikipedia/Wikimedia shop at
> http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia
>
> There's a few new Wikipedia products, including an updated tile coaster
> with the new skin. There's also a new section of products featuring the
> Wikimedia Foundation logo.

And let's not forget the magnificent Wikipedia thong! :)
http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia.16059824

Wikpedia =!sexy?

-- mav

---------------
????

And... a bra with... a wikipedia ball on the top of each cup ?

Jimbo could even host the bra, with a girl model wearing it...

on bomis website ?

Guys, let's be creative here...

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


subject: [Foundation-l] Cafe shop


subject: [WikiEN-l] STill not back,

body:
I still have not hear from your administrator jdfwolff about why he's blocked
me.

For every minute I am blocked for I demand that Jdfwolff be blocked for 10
minutes and that he have his privileges withdraw he is obviously triger
happy and unfit to be left in charge of anything.

Last time ignoring the rule about being sensible about when it's 3RR and
this time for no apparent reason.

If the operators of Wikipedia are so damn fussed about being polite etc
then perhaps they should beck it up with slightly more politeness
themselves by explaining their actions.

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Soon as I open my mouth.

body:
Sorry but it seems I was a bit quick on the rudeness their. I got a reply from
the list uses as I sent my msg.		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Gabriel Beecham

subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageGa.php update request

body:
LanguageGa.php at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageGa.php has been
updated, tested and formatted for upload (thanks to
Amgine) so could someone please upload it to the live
versions of ga.wikipedia.org, ga.wiktionary.org,
ga.wikiquote.org and ga.wikibooks.org? It also would
be a great help if the existing MediaWiki messages
could be overwritten in all cases.

Thank you,

-- Kwekubo / Gabriel Beecham

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: NSK

body:
On Thursday 06 January 2005 04:02, Mark Williamson wrote:
> If I were you, I would tell my brother "The GREAT thing about
> Wikipedia is that YOU are allowed to fix that, and are invited to do

Many people expect an encyclopedia to include all the information they are
demanding and not just invite them to write it. This type of persons (and
they are many) will never submit anything even if they are experts on it.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
On Jan 6.2005, at 00:41, Daniel Mayer wrote:

>> Why would these people not just be included in the Wikipedia?
>
> Because encyclopedias only deal with notable people, things and
> events. And no,
> this is not just a matter of space but about the goal and purpose of
> that type
> of reference work.

Right. Sure. I understand that. Merriam Webster apparently doesn't,
instead defining an Encyclopaedia as:
>  a work that contains information on all branches of knowledge or
> treats comprehensively a particular branch of knowledge usually in
> articles arranged alphabetically often by subject

and WordNet (Princeton, accessed through Apple's Sherlock tool) says
this:
> n : a reference work (often in several volumes) containing articles on
> various topics (often arranged in alphabetical order) dealing with the
> entire range of human knowledge or with some particular specialty

Even if one accepts your original statement as truth, this type of
reference work is also traditionally ivory tower driven, and the
Wikipedia has fundamentally changed that: it's a democratic encylopedia
(with good and bad impacts.)

So why bind a tool which is clearly designed to break down some of the
traditions by rigorously sticking to others?

Wikipedia is not an "encyclopedia" in the traditional sense. It's
owned, edited, and contributed to by the world at large. The same can't
be said for Britannica, or any other of the traditional
Encyclopaedia's.

Of course, if the answer is "we choose not to stretch THAT particular
rule" then I respectfully understand, but disagree and choose to
occasionally see it as somewhat silly, in a good natured way.
--
Skot Nelson
skot at penguinstorm.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
My main concern is that it is likely to be boring and underutilized.
Underutilization means that errors are unlikely to be corrected and trivial
information included with important information left out.

While there are families, and certain ethnic groups who are into this kind
of thing, indeed almost a mass movement, those folks are already doing their
thing in other established venues and may not come over to our new project
in sufficient numbers to make it viable.

One may also criticize the project as lacking significance. Most geneologies
are not that interesting; few are of social signficance. Sadly the same is
true of most deaths. Including only memorials of victims of some event
increases significance. Including all who ever lived reduces it.

Fred

> From: Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Robin Shannon <robin.shannon at gmail.com>, Wikimedia Foundation
> Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:08:51 +1100
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki
>
> wikipeople, what's
> wrong with it? Its been around for quite a while and hasnt got up yet.
> Why? We already have content to put into it (11/09wiki) and it could
> tie up some loose ends, so what are the objections to it? The only
> objection i have heard so far is that it would turn into one big flame
> war (something i disagree with). Any other objections?


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


body:
I don't think anyone needs to be damned in either case. They should be
thanked for trying to deal with a difficult matter.

Fred

> From: John Lee <johnleemk at gawab.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:57:43 +0800
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Definition of 'near-revert'? was Illegitimate block.
>
> Precisely what I'd like to know, too. This is the most troubling part of
> enforcing the 3RR; admins have to make a judgement call, and they may
> very well be damned if they do and damned if they don't.
>
> John Lee
> ([[User:Johnleemk]])


from_name: slimvirgin at gmail.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Definition of 'near-revert'? was Illegitimate block.

body:
Could it be added that admins must place a warning on the editor's
talk page before blocking for a 3RR violation? That would get round
any confusion over partial and complex reverts. An editor who
continues to revert (partially, complexedly or otherwise) after a
warning is showing contempt for the rules, but an editor who is
blocked without warning may genuinely not have realized that their
edits counted as reverts.

Slim

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 01:19:31 +1100, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Fred Bauder (fredbaud at ctelco.net) [050107 01:09]:
> > From: John Lee <johnleemk at gawab.com>
>
> > > Precisely what I'd like to know, too. This is the most troubling part of enforcing the 3RR; admins have to make a judgement call


from_name: Stirling Newberry

body:
On Jan 6, 2005, at 8:09 AM, David Gerard wrote:

> Stirling Newberry (stirling.newberry at xigenics.net) [050106 10:43]:
>
>> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/1670d184-5f52-11d9-8cca-00000e2511c8.html
>
>
> Is that today's or yesterday's? I'll see if I can grab a copy.
>
>
> - d.

Yesterday's.


from_name: VeryVerily

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
> If I knew that I were allowed "one abuse per month" I would choose my
> target carefully, and make that abuse as effective as possible. ;-)

I don't think it's fair that this "one abuse per month" dispensation
should be given only to admins.  Non-admins should be permitted one
personal attack per month, one page vandalism, one frivolous listing
on VfD or RfA or RfAr or RfC, one trolling attack on the mailing list,
one sterile revert war, and one edit of a talk page to misattribute
everyone else's comments.

VV


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
Fred Bauder said:
> Near as I can tell it was Clitoris, see Wikipedia:Administrators'
> noticeboard. Block was done by Jfdwolff but on the request of
> Violetriga. Both of you seem to have reverted three times but not more.
>
> I have left a few notes so far.
>
I have drafted a clarification for WP:3RR.  It now reads:
'''If you violate the three revert rule, after your fourth revert in 24
hours sysops may block you for up to 24 hours. In the cases where multiple
parties violate the rule, sysops should treat all sides equally.'''
The added text is "after your fourth revert in 24 hours".

Please check and copy edit.


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Illegitimate block.

body:
>I have drafted a clarification for WP:3RR.  It now reads:
>'''If you violate the three revert rule, after your fourth revert in 24
>hours sysops may block you for up to 24 hours. In the cases where multiple
>parties violate the rule, sysops should treat all sides equally.'''
>The added text is "after your fourth revert in 24 hours".
>
>Please check and copy edit.

Perhaps the confusion here is the assumption that the first time one adds
information to (or deletes information from) an article, it is not a
"revert", but the subsequent 3 additions (and deletions) are "reverts".
Thus "3 reverts in 24 hours" can mean 1 edit, then 3 reverts to it.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
They are, unless a depraved heart is thus revealed.

Fred

> From: VeryVerily <veryverily at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: VeryVerily <veryverily at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:20:05 -0800
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas
>
>> If I knew that I were allowed "one abuse per month" I would choose my
>> target carefully, and make that abuse as effective as possible. ;-)
>
> I don't think it's fair that this "one abuse per month" dispensation
> should be given only to admins.  Non-admins should be permitted one
> personal attack per month, one page vandalism, one frivolous listing
> on VfD or RfA or RfAr or RfC, one trolling attack on the mailing list,
> one sterile revert war, and one edit of a talk page to misattribute
> everyone else's comments.
>
> VV
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Grégoire Colbert

subject: [Wikitech-l] Why www.wikipedia.org => en.wikipedia.org ?

body:
Saluton [English version follows],

Mi volas scii kial la adreso http://www.wikipedia.org kondukas automate
al la adreso http://en.wikipedia.org... Chu Wikipedia estas angla
projekto kun tradukoj, au chu ghi vere estas internacia? Oni povas uzi
tiun PHP programon por solvi tiun problemon :

function handle_http_accept_language() {
   $knownlangs = array( "eo", "fr", "en" ); # Etc
   $lang = "eo"; # Default
   $lastquality = 0.0;

   # Note HTTP reference RFC 2616 -
   # ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2616.txt

   $langtag = '((?:[a-zA-Z]{1,8})(?:-[a-zA-Z]{1,8})*)';
   $qvalue ='(0(?:\.[0-9]{1,3})?|1(?:\.0{1,3}))';
   $eachbit = '^' . $langtag . '(?:;q=' . $qvalue . ')?(?:,\s*)?(.*)$';

   $alh = trim( $_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE"] );

   while(strlen($alh)) {
     if( preg_match( "/$eachbit/", $alh, $m ) ) {
       $tag = $m[1];
       $quality = $m[2];
       if(strlen($quality) == 0) $quality = 1;
       $alh = $m[3];

       #echo "language '$tag' quality '$quality'\n";

       if(in_array($tag, $knownlangs) and $quality > $lastquality) {
         $lang = $tag;
         $lastquality = $quality;
       }
     } else {
       break;
     }
   }
   return $lang;
}

Mi ne subskribis al la listo, char estas mia nura propono. :-)

Dankon,
Gr?goire
===========
Hello,

I want to know why the address http://www.wikipedia.org redirects
automatically to http://en.wikipedia.org... Is Wikipedia an english
project with translations, or is it a real international project? We can
use this PHP program to solve this problem :

function handle_http_accept_language() {
   $knownlangs = array( "eo", "fr", "en" ); # Etc
   $lang = "eo"; # Default
   $lastquality = 0.0;

   # Note HTTP reference RFC 2616 -
   # ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2616.txt

   $langtag = '((?:[a-zA-Z]{1,8})(?:-[a-zA-Z]{1,8})*)';
   $qvalue ='(0(?:\.[0-9]{1,3})?|1(?:\.0{1,3}))';
   $eachbit = '^' . $langtag . '(?:;q=' . $qvalue . ')?(?:,\s*)?(.*)$';

   $alh = trim( $_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE"] );

   while(strlen($alh)) {
     if( preg_match( "/$eachbit/", $alh, $m ) ) {
       $tag = $m[1];
       $quality = $m[2];
       if(strlen($quality) == 0) $quality = 1;
       $alh = $m[3];

       #echo "language '$tag' quality '$quality'\n";

       if(in_array($tag, $knownlangs) and $quality > $lastquality) {
         $lang = $tag;
         $lastquality = $quality;
       }
     } else {
       break;
     }
   }
   return $lang;
}

I did not subscribe to the list, because this is my only proposition.

Thank you,
Gr?goire


body:
--- Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> And even where NPOV is concerned, an expert is much more useful than
> just someone off the street. A non-expert POV-warrior will easily blow
> away a non-expert NPOV-fighter, simply because he is the one who has
> read at least something about the subject. An expert POV-warrior will
> have a much harder time fighting an expert NPOV-fighter.

And that is why we have a dispute resolution process. RfC is used to expose a
conflict to a wider audience. That increases the chance that other NPOV-minded
and at least semi-knowledgeable people get to voice their view and add their
contribution. If that gets the attention of an expert in the field, then all
the better (so long as that person adheres to NPOV). And you incorrectly assume
that the non-expert POV warrior knows more than the non-expert NPOV-minded
person or group (if the later are really in the right, then they will garner
more support in the end and win).

> I think there's a large area between "valuing feedback" and "giving
> the last word". It would be worthwhile to explore it. And it would be
> worthwhile to make a decision whom we DO give the last word.

We should not show special deference to any one person or group of persons.
That is a recipe for disaster since credentials are easy enough to fake and are
often used as weapons by POV-pushing experts (there are many and egos are HUGE
in academia) against non-experts.

That said, I do think that we should encourage greater participation by experts
in Wikipedia. We could do this through the 1.0 selection process; experts would
be needed on any subject-area selection board along with non-expert subject
area enthusiasts (both sub-groups would have *equal* power in version
selection).

> Maybe it should be our problem. Maybe we should be listening to what
> others see as problems with our methods, rather than closing our ears
> and shouting how great it is. Wikipedia is great, but that should not
> stop us from trying to find ways to make it even better.

What we need to focus on is the *product* - methods are a means to an end. Some
in academia don't like our methods since it knocks them out of their ivory
towers, but the real question is; "how good is the actual product (not just the
perception of it)."

For a four year old encyclopedia, I'd say that our product is exemplary (and at
least the German version has been shown to be so in an independent study). But
we can and should do more (Wikipedia 1.0/versioning) and not just rest on our
laurels.

I'm all for continued improvement, I'm not for killing the goose that laid the
golden egg.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
On Jan 6, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Gr?goire Colbert wrote:
> Mi volas scii kial la adreso http://www.wikipedia.org kondukas
> automate al la adreso http://en.wikipedia.org... Chu Wikipedia estas
> angla projekto kun tradukoj, au chu ghi vere estas internacia?

Wikipedia originally was a single English-language project which sat at
http://www.wikipedia.com/. Later other languages were added, eg
http://de.wikipedia.com/. After a year or so we moved all the
wikipedia.com addresses to wikipedia.org. Some months later, we moved
the English-language wiki from http://www.wikipedia.org/ to a
language-coded domain to match everything else:
http://en.wikipedia.org/. The old domain names redirect to the new
locations to avoid breaking old links.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050106/576ca9b8/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Andre Engels

body:
Daniel Mayer:
> I respect Larry and what he did to help Wikipedia along in its first year. But
> I will never just assume that somebody with a PhD is right since many PhDs all
> too often are not; I've come across and know of a good many PhDs who have axes
> to grind and who have pet theories to push.
>
> NPOV is a much better guarantee of accuracy than trusting a supposed expert
> (although I do highly value feedback from field experts - I just don't take
> their ideas as the last word).

I disagree. NPOV does not in any way guarantee accuracy. At best it
stops the most extreme cases of theory-pushing, at worst it leads to a
ridiculous degree of relativism.

And even where NPOV is concerned, an expert is much more useful than
just someone off the street. A non-expert POV-warrior will easily blow
away a non-expert NPOV-fighter, simply because he is the one who has
read at least something about the subject. An expert POV-warrior will
have a much harder time fighting an expert NPOV-fighter.

I think there's a large area between "valuing feedback" and "giving
the last word". It would be worthwhile to explore it. And it would be
worthwhile to make a decision whom we DO give the last word.

> Many in academia are used to being the gatekeepers and stewards of
> information. Wiki opens those gates to anybody with an Internet connection. So
> many in academia will always recoil in horror at the mere concept - that is
> their problem, their failing, not ours.

Maybe it should be our problem. Maybe we should be listening to what
others see as problems with our methods, rather than closing our ears
and shouting how great it is. Wikipedia is great, but that should not
stop us from trying to find ways to make it even better.

Andre Engels


from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Evercat v. Libertas

body:
Allan Crossman wrote:
> BJ?rn Lindqvist writes:
>
>  > stepping down sounds like a good idea.
>
> Very well. I'll put in a request for de-sysoping.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is absolutely NO call for this. I will NOT support
this, unless Evercat absolutely wants this to happen.

A few bullying users should not force volunteer admins to quit. In fact,
those users who are causing problems should be placed on notice that POV
pushing and other means of making life difficult for other editors is
not acceptable to us.

I have noted the conduct of several users. Specifically, I have noted
the way that Silverback and Libertas have been editing and participating
on Wikipedia. I am not impressed. (please note I respect the opinion of
Dr Zen as he's put in his $0.02 and am not referring to him).

TBSDY


body:
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:39:12 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:

> Second of all, I think it will be a good idea to divide efforts
> between a Wikipedia and a Wiktionary. There are many similarities
> between the projects, but on Wikipedia you can give much more
> information about a subject, while in Wiktionary you give information
> about the word itself (ie pronunciation, translations, definition).
> Perhaps it would be a good idea to get a "head start" with the
> Wiktionary until you have a "working lexicon" of 500 words, and then
> split efforts and start more on a Wikipedia.

I disagree; in my opinion it would be better to start just one of the
two, whichever the organisers are more interested in. There's just a
few people working on the language, and it might be some time before
there are more. Splitting efforts in a situation like that seems to me
to be detrimental to the project. Of course this does not mean I would
be in favor of blocking one or the other, I just want to advise the
Amis Wikipedians/Wiktionarians against it.

As another issue, is any of you experienced in Wikipedia? If not, it
would be good to have someone from another Wikipedia (the Chinese one
seems to be the obvious choice), preferably a sysop and preferably
someone with passive knowledge of Amis, to help in setting up your
wiki. And of course an announcement should be made in the Chinese (and
perhaps Min-nan? I don't know enough about the Taiwanese linguistic
situation to judge that) Wikipedia and Wiktionary when this is
started.

Andre Engels


from_name: Andrew Dunbar

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: inter project links (was Patrol feature)

references:
<9OD09zQxpVB@erik_moeller> <41DA4921.6030406@myrealbox.com>
	<ba1b6b9f05010405575426f226@mail.gmail.com>
	<41DAC2EC.8040202@myrealbox.com>

body:
No I'm not talking about "one way magic from en:wiktionary to
en:wikipedia only".
I'm talking mainly about between all the Wiktionaries mainly.
en.wiktionary to en.wikipedia would be less a little less useful
because the Wikipedia article as often as not has a different form of
the word or a synonym or something else unexpected. Of course
nonmagical interwikis would be able to supply these and should look
identical on the formatted page.

The people running the show might be able to take a guess as to
whether magic or bots would take up more bandwidth or processing time.
Bots would have to crawl the databases and continuously update. Magic
would have to query some special index each time a page is generated.
A bot would also put a lot of bloat in edit histories. If a bot has an
error it could be a bunch of work to go back and fix its changes. If
the magic code had an error we would only have to fix the magic code.

As a programmer I tend to think the magic would be better, but I don't
have the database experience of the guys running the show so it would
be nice to hear their opinions.

Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:23:08 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Andrew Dunbar wrote:
>
> >For some projects it is good to have automagic links. The English
> >wiktionary is one. That project doesn't support disambiguation pages.
> >The automagic link generator code could certainly be aware of which
> >capitalisation mode is in use in each interproject and merge or split
> >links accordingly. In the case of the English Wiktionary, we would
> >only want automagic for the default namespace. Articles in other
> >namespaces may have counterparts in interprojects with different
> >titles. (Main Page is a special exception in the default namespace
> >though).
> >
> >Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)
> >
> >
> When you say that automagic links are cool, you are talking about one
> way magic from en:wiktionary to en:wikipedia only. I think it would be
> much easier to have a bot create these interproject links because
> otherwise you are asking for some complicated code that can only be used
> for one project and in only one direction.
>
> If anything, it would be easier to code for interlanguage links between
> the non capitalizing wiktionaries. They ARE bidirectional and they are
> always correct. Then again, a bot can do this as well.
>
> Thanks,
>    GerardM
>
> >
> >On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 08:43:29 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> ><gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Erik Moeller wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Anthere-
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708
> >>>>Erik proposed himself to write it for release 1.4.
> >>>>What is this status ?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>I'll code it soon. The biggest open question is what syntax to use. I
> >>>think I'll go for [[Sidebar:Wiktionary:Bla]] (where "Sidebar:" would have
> >>>to be localizable).
> >>>
> >>>If I understand him correctly, Brion has argued that these links should be
> >>>automagically displayed if there is an article with the same title on a
> >>>sister project wiki. That would be nice, but harder to implement.
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>
> >>>Erik
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Hoi,
> >>It is not a good idea to have automagic links; the reason for this is
> >>that it does not take into account that there are these disambiguation
> >>pages and consequently namaes that do not match, it does not take into
> >>account that wiktionary has both lower and upper case characters. As to
> >>the syntax, why not a short IPL for InterProject Link. It would also be
> >>nice it the shorthand like w: and wikt: would be possible as well.
> >>
> >>One nice feature would be, if you have a link one way to have it
> >>automagically also the other way. Another point is, do we allow for
> >>IPL's that cross a language divide (this would ask for [[IPL:w:en:Bla]])  ??
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>   GerardM
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Wikitech-l mailing list
> >>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

--
http://linguaphile.sf.net


from_name: Peter Gervai

body:
On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 04:16:05AM +0200, NSK wrote:
> On Thursday 06 January 2005 04:02, Mark Williamson wrote:
> > If I were you, I would tell my brother "The GREAT thing about
> > Wikipedia is that YOU are allowed to fix that, and are invited to do
>
> Many people expect an encyclopedia to include all the information they are
> demanding and not just invite them to write it. This type of persons (and
> they are many) will never submit anything even if they are experts on it.

Actually there are two kinds of experts (in my experience):

* the first kind knows a lot but does not want to (or cannot) explain it
to unexperienced people without the required background. the results are
articles which are more useless than not since only 1% of the readers'
population can understand it. repeated requests result the expert being
offended (or denying to "lower the level") and leaving Wikipedia.

* the other kind knows a lot but able to rephrase it for the masses, and
willing to. it requires a very open minded approach since s/he have to write
_unexact_ and _unprofessional_ things to fill the gaps in the reader's
background, or not to assume that something is common knowledge. these
experts are my faviourite contributors because they're a vast source of real
facts to learn, and they are able to make it understandable. I welcome these
experts, and would like to have them in unlimited numbers.

What I do not expect that we have the strength (or the right to demand)
contributors changing their attitude, lower their level of professional
writing style and talk on the level of the masses.

Those experts who are in the first group will criticise Wikipedia for the
articles, but it is often useless to ask them to contribute because they
cannot. Either they go away, or transform an article to a professional,
legthy and uncomprehensible stuff that editors start to revert because they
don't get it, and it's unfit for a general encyclopedia.

The experts in the second group usually have the brains to fix the problems
without making the noise. That's their personality. (Sometimes they ask
about it the first time, very politely.)

I tend to prejudice experts who criticise without doing about it and list
them in my first mental group, and try to prepare for what happens after,
and I tend to avoid reminding them about the possibility of contribution
instead of whining.

My 2 'cents.
[[:en:user:grin]]

ps: interesting effect I just observed was that a POV
[[:en:Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antifinnugor|problem user]] started a
widespread war and demanded experts. miraculously an expert arrived (on
huwiki, where this originated) and started to explain reality. after a short
while he felt that Wikipedia is a bunch of stupid morons who ignore facts
and write unscientific articles. since he is in the second group he was
relieved to know - after some explanation - that he debated with one user
with lots of (questionable) contributions, and not with "Wikipedia" itself.
But this could be a problem: an expert experiencing trolls and POV users
without preparation, and leaving in believing that Wikipedia is a bunch of
POV users... And they do not have the time to debate/prove their knowledge
with John Does who state that the Earth is flat on the back of 4 elephants.
Tough.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Evercat v. Libertas

body:
It appears that this is already done. Great. Another good sysop gone due
to POV pushers.

TBSDY

csherlock at ljh.com.au wrote:
> Allan Crossman wrote:
>
>> BJ?rn Lindqvist writes:
>>
>>  > stepping down sounds like a good idea.
>>
>> Very well. I'll put in a request for de-sysoping.
>
>
> ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is absolutely NO call for this. I will NOT support
> this, unless Evercat absolutely wants this to happen.
>
> A few bullying users should not force volunteer admins to quit. In fact,
> those users who are causing problems should be placed on notice that POV
> pushing and other means of making life difficult for other editors is
> not acceptable to us.
>
> I have noted the conduct of several users. Specifically, I have noted
> the way that Silverback and Libertas have been editing and participating
> on Wikipedia. I am not impressed. (please note I respect the opinion of
> Dr Zen as he's put in his $0.02 and am not referring to him).
>
> TBSDY


from_name: Edward Peschko

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: licensing issues,
	BSD doc license vs GNU

body:
On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 05:49:46AM -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> Edward Peschko wrote:
> > Right.. I understand the distinction between the software's license
> > and the content's license - but what I was wondering is does
> > the wikimedia *foundation* have a policy against accepting a
> > sister project's content with a different license than the Gnu FDL?
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here by "sister project".  That term is
> something that we reserve for all of our internal projects.  There is
> no process whereby an outside project can become formally recognized
> by us in anyway, and I'm not particularly keen on doing so, just
> because of the time and energy that would be required for a process of
> scrutiny.
>
> So far, all of our projects have been GNU FDL.  Wikinews is currently
> using public domain, because there is an ongoing discussion and
> learning process about what sorts of things we might need to do in
> that case.
>
> There are projects which are friends, but it is informal.  Wikitravel
> for example, is not a wikimedia project, but we are friends with Evan.
>
> --Jimbo

I understand the reasons for both the preference for GNU FDL and
the 'friends vs sister projects' distinction, but I believe the project
in question warrants some exceptions. Its called 'wikiresearch'
(bring the power of wikis to research projects) - and I think that there
three basic reasons why the foundation should make an exception on both fronts
in this case:

    1) 'wikiresearch' is about as generic a project as they come. There
       have been rumblings about it on wikibooks (where it is listed
       as a 'candidate for deletion' because it doesn't fit the wikibook
       mold. Hence, ultimately it makes sense as a foundation project.

    2) mediawiki as it stands is not a 'good fit' for research projects, both
       software wise and license wise.

       For example, the GFDL license and complete openness would scare away
       most researchers - they want to control how their content is modified
       and viewed. For them, the more important thing is to get *open comment*
       on their works, not open edits - as well as control *when* it is made
       public.  This requires IMO something more like the BSD license
       (which can be sublicensed), as well as mods to the mediawiki software
       to allow people to have their own subprojects which they can admin.

       Likewise, they would want to ultimately take the content that they've
       created online and publish it, as well as be able to get people to cite
       it.  Again, this requires mediawiki mods.

    3) If this is truly going to work, it is going to need three things: as much
       freedom as possible to 'get it right' in the form of experiments,
       close working w/mediawiki developers to make sure that any mods made to
       mediawiki could ultimately be reincorporated back into the main
       mediawiki branch, and as much exposure of wikiresearch as possible
       to the outside world by its ultimate inclusion as a sister project.

In short, I'd like to be able to experiment with mediawiki and modify it so
that it fits the research problem domain, try it versus a test research
project, and treat all this as a 'dry run' - and then take the work that
was done and encorporate it back into the main branch.

However, if not using the GFDL would interefere with this, or people have
qualms with using the BSD license && sublicensing wiki content, I'd be
willing to discuss it... And of course comments on any of the above
are most welcome...

Ed

(
    ps -
    in any case, I've applied for two sourceforge projects: wikiresearch
    and energywiki... I'll let people know when they come through and there
    are mailing lists available..
)