subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards for developers

body:
Frithjof Engel wrote:

> On 26.07.2004 15:03:52 +0100, Timwi wrote:
>
>>The study does not take into account the possibility of "paid
>>volunteers", because there have been few such systems in the past.
>
> The reason for that is that it would not work. You either work because
> of the money you earn or because of the fun you have. There is no middle-way
> IMHO.

You're digressing. I was talking of "paid volunteers", and then you say
"it would not work". It did briefly work for LiveJournal. Whether it
would work for Wikimedia has yet to be discovered, and I would like to
ask you to refrain from jumping to conclusions before we know anything
for definite.

> Ordinary TODO list:
> * Fix bug that the app cannot handle filenames longer than 255 chars
> * Fix memory leaks when editing file
> * Implement an export feature
>
> Reward-driven TODO list:
> * 1$ For fixing bug that the app cannot handle filenames longer than 255 chars
> * 2$ Fix memory leaks when editing file
> * Implement an export feature
>
> Don't you immediately start to evaluate the tasks based on the money you can
> make? Your interest for developing shifts automagically.

You're forgetting something important here. Shifting the developers'
focus is the *whole point* of offering payments. If it really was the
way you described, all the better! That's what we *want*! Because that
way we could get the developers to work on exactly those things that are
needed most, by offering payment for them.

However, I doubt many people are that one-sided. Well... obviously, I
don't know what most people are like, but I can say what I'm like and
hope that I'm not alone. :-) No, the introduction of money into the
equation would not entirely eliminate the factor of interest for me. If
you offer only 2$ for a bugfix that I have absolutely no motivation to
work on, then I will feel it's not worth the 2$. On the other hand, a
simple/easy bugfix that has no money attached to it may still get my
attention. (And in all honesty, that's bad. We want the important bugs
to be fixed, not the easy ones.)

Timwi


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: LanguageCs.php

body:
V?t Zv?novec wrote:

> # Czech ISBN servers

You change these by editing the Czech equivalent of en's
[[Wikipedia:Book sources]].

> 6. Would it be useful to transfer All system messages in MediaWiki of
> LanguageCs.php into the living copy of LanguageCs.php? Approximately
> half of all messages is in MediaWiki which may slow down perfomance.

*All* messages are in the MediaWiki namespace. Copying them into
LanguageCs.php does not increase performance.

> 1. There is too much space between end of an external link and non-
> space characters. For instance: [http://aa.bb.cc First]. is shown as
> "First .", not as "First.".

This bug has already been fixed (by me :>). It just isn't live yet.

Timwi


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: encoding convertion

body:
Alexander Prudnikov wrote:
> Hello.
>
>   I have 2 questions about UTF-8 encoding in wiki.
>
>   1. How is the UTF-8 encoding encoded and decoded into other encodings?
>   Where in the sources can I find it? And what additional libraries or
>   software (except php, apache etc.) should I have in order to
>   encode/decode UTF-8?
>   2. How can I define (in the code) what encoding my Wiki uses? I mean what
>   variable contain information about the encoding?

Hello,

1/
It doesnt make sens to decode an UTF-8 encoded text to ASCII for
example. Utf-8 offer much more characters that you will not be able to
correctly translate, same for ISO-8859-1 (wich doesnt have the oelig; ).

I don't think you need any specific library for php / apache. The only
thing needed is to output an http header saying wich encoding is used so
the browser correctly decode the text.

2/
The default MediaWiki encoding is set to ISO-8859-1 through the
$wgInputEncoding and $wgOutputEncoding of ./includes/DefaultSettings.php

When you configure the language to be used in LocalSettings.php (
example: $wgLanguageCode = "fr"; ), the software will include a language
specific script in ./languages. The Fr one in turn load LanguageUtf8.php
that set the encoding options.

So basicly: set $wgInputEncoding and $wgOutPutEncoding in your Language
file and it should works :o)  I recommend using utf-8.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Second, once a year, we could have a couple of special
> awards for developers. I was thinking of for example :
> * award for hardware maintenance or improvement
> * award for software development
> * special award to thank a special dedication to some
> features recommanded by the board.

Depending on the details of this, I am afraid this could turn out rather
detrimental. I don't know about others, but I know I wouldn't even begin
to get involved in the development if it takes a ridiculous amount of
dedication just to be recognised. (Not saying it would actually -- but
if these awards are displayed prominently, it would make that impression.)

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: encoding convertion

body:
Alexander Prudnikov wrote:

>   1. How is the UTF-8 encoding encoded and decoded into other encodings?
>   Where in the sources can I find it? And what additional libraries or
>   software (except php, apache etc.) should I have in order to
>   encode/decode UTF-8?

I am not aware that MediaWiki currently does any encoding or decoding at
all. All our wikis use either ISO-8859-1 or UTF-8, and each of them uses
this one encoding for input, database storage, output and everything.
The only conversion we ever need to do is when switching a wiki to a
different encoding, but this is a one-time thing per wiki, and if you
start with UTF-8 right from the start, you never need to bother with this.

>   2. How can I define (in the code) what encoding my Wiki uses? I mean what
>   variable contain information about the encoding?

$wgInputEncoding and $wgOutputEncoding. I don't know what happens if you
specify different encodings for the two; just use UTF-8 for both of them
and you'll be fine.

Timwi


list: wikien-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Current Events July 23rd 2004. Zero0000 abusing admin
	privs

body:
We are not in a position to determine which press source is more
reliable.  That being said, the safe way is to restrict ourselves to
those facts on which the sources agree.  Calling this squad terrorists,
calling their act murder, presuming that the squad was from Al-Aqsa,
gratuitously making the link with Fateh and Arafat, making the technical
determination the the missiles were specifically Qassam rockets all seem
to be strategies to inflame the issue with unverified facts.

Ec

Harry Smith wrote:

>I need your help.  Zero0000 is insisting upon a
>verison of events that is based upon a single report
>in AFP. The BBC, NYT, HaAretz, INN all disagree with
>Zero0000's version.  This is detailed in a table on
>[[Talk:Current Events]].  Zero0000 is also
>insisting, that a different article in HaAretz is a
>retraction of an earlier one...there is  no indication
>of such in the article itself. While that article
>details other deaths in this horrible conflict,
>nowhere does it discuss the incident of Hassan Zaanin.
>
>Zero0000's version:
>* An 18-year-old [[Palestinian]], Hassan Zaanin, is
>shot dead in Beit Hanoun in the [[Gaza Strip]] when
>heand his familiy attempt to stop Palestinian gunmen
>from planting an anti-tank explosive outside their
>house.[http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/455715.html
>(Haaretz)]
>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
> (BBC)]
>
>My version:
>* [[Palestinian terrorism|Palestinian terrorist]]s
>of the [[Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades]] an armed branch
>of
>[[Yasser Arafat]]'s [[Fatah]] organization,
>[[murder]] 16-year-old [[Palestinian]] Hassan
>Al-Za'nin and shoot several members of his family,
>when the family refuses to allow the terrorists to use
>the Al-Za'nin property as a [[Qassam rocket]] launch
>site.
>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
>(BBC)]
>[http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/23/international/middleeast/23CND-MIDE.html?hp
>(NYT)]
>[http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=66197 (INN)]
>[http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/455377.html
>(HaAretz)]
>
>To prevent me from insisting that the more common
>version be used, he is blocking IP addresses that I
>use.  Please help in preventing Zero0000 from doing
>this.
>
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Anthere wrote:
> Upon reading other people comments, I think that we
> might have a dual solution for developers reward,
> which could be at the same time
> * just a thank you note
> * a mean to help them get a job, or just more traffic
> on a site they like
> * potentially, some money
>
> As suggested in meta, first we could set a page on the
> wikimediafoundation website.
>
> This page would be a list of all developers involved
> in wikimedia technical matters (if they want to be
> there *of course*).
>
> Each developer name could be along with a short bio
> (or link to a personal website), and description of
> their most relevant activity in wikimedia as
> developers (everyday hardware maintenance, bug
> correction, mailing list handling, performance issues,
>   software development, liaison with board etc...).
>
> Each developer could put here a proeminant link for
> donations (paypal system).

Hello,

I like this idea. The community will know who is behind the
mediawiki software. Maybe we should set up a template to be
filled by developpers like:

    Name (nick):
    Country:
    Activities:
    Bio:

> Second, once a year, we could have a couple of special
> awards for developers. I was thinking of for example :
> * award for hardware maintenance or improvement
> * award for software development
> * special award to thank a special dedication to some
> features recommanded by the board.
>
> These awards could be heavily advertised and of
> course, proeminently announced on the
> wikimediafoundation website. They might also result in
> a little gift (such as money or hardware for example).
> Hardware gifts might be gifts offered to the
> foundation by hardware corporations.
>
> It might be nice that this is the opportunity to thank
> people who put a lot of time in some activities, which
> are not very visible.

In the case a developper is tired of "working for nothing"
that might give him a boost, maybe set it twice per year.

I personally doesn't need to get any reward although I will
certainly reward gwicke for his monobook skin.

Don't forget lot of important works aren't seen by users like
all works wich is done on servers or deep in the MediaWiki
engine.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Curious about subpage parsing

body:
Matthew Trump wrote:
> How does the Parser recognize whether or not an article title
> containing a slash is a subpage or a normal top-level article?
>
> For example [[Nip/Tuck]] (a U.S. television show) in Wikipedia does
> not generate an automatic "upward" link to the [[Nip]] article (which
> exists), as it would if it were a subpage.

There's a global setting for which namespaces to perform subpage
processing in; article namespace is excluded.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: LanguageCs.php

body:
V?t Zv?novec wrote:
> 	Dear colleagues,
>
> == LanguageCs.php ==
> 1. Could anybody change these variables in the living copy of
> LanguageCs.php?
>
> # There are no month abbreviations in Czech language.
> /* private */ $wgMonthAbbreviationsCs = array("1.", "2.", "3.",
> "4.", "5.", "6.", "7.", "8.", "9.", "10.", "11.", "12.");
>
> # Czech ISBN servers
> /* private */ $wgBookstoreListCs = array(
> "N?rodn? knihovna" =>
> "http://sigma.nkp.cz/F/?func=find-
> a&find_code=WRD&request=&request_op=AND&find_code=WAU&request=&request
> _op=AND&find_code=WTL&request=&request_op=AND&find_code=WYR&
> request=&request_op=AND&find_code=WPB&request=&request_op=AND&find_cod
> e=ISN&request=$1");

Hello Vit,

The english language use the first three characters of the month for
abbreviations:
/* private */ $wgMonthAbbreviationsEn = array(
         'jan', 'feb', 'mar', 'apr', 'may', 'jun', 'jul', 'aug',
         'sep', 'oct', 'nov', 'dec'
);

Can you confirm Czech language really use numbers for that purpose ?

The bookstore is now in cvs and will reach wikipedia live site soon.

> 2. How to force caching of special pages in :cs? There is currently
> no cached page at all.
Caching page, also known as misermode is managed in the server
configuration. The normal (default) behaviour is to have special pages
generated upon request, the cache is enabled when the wiki servers are
under high load.

> 3. The upload log file is missing.
The LanguageCs.php file in cvs use the following entries:
	"uploadlog"		=> "kniha nahr?vek ",
	"uploadlogpage" => "kniha_nahr?vek ",

I removed the ending spaces, that should fix it once the new file
updated on the new site.

> 4. To translate namespace Category into Kategorie. But there is
> a lot of category pages in cs:, therefore they should be
> automatically changed from [[Category:]] into [[Kategorie:]].
The software should be able to understand both english and localised
namespaces names. While we are fixing it, can you please provide
translations for the following entries ?

	NS_TEMPLATE  		=> "Template",
	NS_TEMPLATE_TALK  	=> "Template_talk",
	NS_HELP				=> "Help",
	NS_HELP_TALK		=> "Help_talk",
	NS_CATEGORY			=> "Category",
	NS_CATEGORY_TALK	=> "Category_talk",

> 5. Wikipedie:Co je ?l?nek can't be deleted.

> 6. Would it be useful to transfer All system messages in MediaWiki of
> LanguageCs.php into the living copy of LanguageCs.php? Approximately
> half of all messages is in MediaWiki which may slow down perfomance.

System messages are set in the databases at installation and then cached
in a big object. On page request the MediaWiki software just load that
big object, if a change is made to a Mediawiki:something page, the
database is updated and the big object is rebuild.

I heard about a script to sync wikipedia.mediawiki entries and the
languageXX.php files. I am not sure if anything have been done yet.

>
> == Rendering of layout (presumable Standard) ==
> 1. There is too much space between end of an external link and non-
> space characters. For instance: [http://aa.bb.cc First]. is shown as
> "First .", not as "First.".
> 2. All system messages (HTML) should have only 2 columns,
> because there is no difference between Default text and Current text.

Default text is the text set in LanguageCs.php while current text is
the one set in the big object cache (see above) and seen by users.

> 3. List of users (special pages) should distinguish between users
> with their own pages (blue links) and without them (red links).

For 1/ and 3/ please create an account on sourceforge and fill bug
reports at http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=34373&atid=411192
They will be looked at as time allow (aka I am not going to fix them
right now).

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: phase3/languages LanguageCs.php,1.17,1.18

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Update of /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/languages
> In directory sc8-pr-cvs1.sourceforge.net:/tmp/cvs-serv12322
>
> Modified Files:
> 	LanguageCs.php
> Log Message:
> * constants for $wgNamespaceNamesCs
>
> Index: LanguageCs.php
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/languages/LanguageCs.php,v
> retrieving revision 1.17
> retrieving revision 1.18
> diff -C2 -d -r1.17 -r1.18
> *** LanguageCs.php	27 Jul 2004 14:38:58 -0000	1.17
> --- LanguageCs.php	27 Jul 2004 15:06:04 -0000	1.18
<snip>
> *** 461,466 ****
> ! "uploadlog"		=> "kniha nahr??vek ",
> ! "uploadlogpage" => "kniha_nahr??vek ",
> --- 465,470 ----
> ! "uploadlog"		=> "kniha nahr??vek",
> ! "uploadlogpage" => "kniha_nahr??vek",

I also removed the ending space for uploadlog that might be the reason
why the uploadlogs aren't generated on cs:

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration Committee election schedule

body:
For anyone who hasn't heard yet, we are having a special election to
fill two vacancies on the Arbitration Committee through the end of the
year. Some of the discussion leading up to this was on wikipedia-l, but
as we were reminded there, wikien-l is the correct place to post about
issues specific to the English Wikipedia.

We have set the timeline so that candidates must present themselves by
the end of Monday, August 2. The election itself will start on
Wednesday, August 4 and continue for 10 days through Friday, August 13.
All users who have been registered for 3 months may vote. See the
election page for more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_July_2004

--Michael Snow


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Second, once a year, we could have a couple of special
>> awards for developers. I was thinking of for example :
>> * award for hardware maintenance or improvement
>> * award for software development
>> * special award to thank a special dedication to some
>> features recommanded by the board.
>
>
> Depending on the details of this, I am afraid this could turn out rather
> detrimental. I don't know about others, but I know I wouldn't even begin
> to get involved in the development if it takes a ridiculous amount of
> dedication just to be recognised. (Not saying it would actually -- but
> if these awards are displayed prominently, it would make that impression.)
>
> Timwi

Hmmmm, Timwi.

If we had *only* developers having a *ridiculous* dedication to the
project, working on it perhaps 15 mn per week at most, releasing totally
crappy new features, ugly skin, or if the servers were down 2 hours per
day, I agree we would have to nominate three people for *ridiculous*
involvement. And it would be very detrimental to say them thank you for
their so-low involvment.

If they were SO bad and SO lazy, I even tend to think they would not
deserve even 2 cents bounties :-)

I have good news !
I am convinced there are *more* than 3 people who *really* deserve to be
proeminently thanked.
So let's agree to judge propositions for what they are, and to consider
by default that our developers are great guys, okay ?


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> 2) Login integration with the wikis.
>
> Hm, how would that work? BugZilla login names are e-mail addresses.
>
> But if you have an idea of how to do this, I'd be very pleased to hear!

Many wiki user accounts include e-mail addresses, and they already have
passwords.

Hypothetically, Bugzilla's authentication could be extended to use
different usernames (ie 'eo:Brion VIBBER'). I don't know how closely
it's tied to using e-mail addresses in the front-end, so that might be
too difficult.

>> The main other issue is just getting people to keep up with the
>> reports. This is grunt work, unfortunately.
>
> What exactly do you mean by that?
>
> If you mean monitoring a Wikipedia (or Meta-Wiki) page for bug reports
> and carrying them over to BugZilla, I'll volunteer to do that.

I mean reading them, assigning priorities to them, claiming them,
clearing out duplicates, fixing them, and clearing them out once they're
fixed.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: S. Vertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fired for Wikipedia

body:
I wasnt fired for wikipedianizing, necessarily, but I
was let go 'for not being productive.'

Coincidentally, I was spending 90 percent of my work
time on wikipedia.

:\
S

--- Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just out of interest, has anyone been fired or
> disciplined for Wikipedianing at work?
> Mark
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [WikiEN-l] Fired for Wikipedia

body:
P.S: Just kidding.

:)

S

> --- Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Just out of interest, has anyone been fired or
> > disciplined for Wikipedianing at work?
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail
> SpamGuard.
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Ronny Raschkowan

subject: [Wikitech-l] German Wikipedia: UTF - 8 conversion

body:
Hello,

I just wanted to announce that the german Wikipedia is going to be
converted to UTF - 8  in the night between the 29. and 30. July.

The conversion will be started at 6 PM UTC, the german Wikipedia's
database will be set read-only for ~7 hours.

Sincerly yours,
Fire


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] A WikiJamSession Fantasy

body:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:48:29 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
<jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> So, I had this idea for something we could do as a part of a drive
> towards 1.0.  We could get permission from a library or libraries in
> some densely populated centers around the world to gain admission
> during a holiday or weekend that they would normally be closed.  We'd
> set up a wireless broadband network and bring together as many people
> as possible to work together day and night in a fun atmosphere to fact
> check articles and process them for final publication in a CD-ROM,
> with an eye towards print as well of course.

After the negative response from Birmingham University Library, there
was some good news from Birmingham Central Library who are interested
in hosting such an event:

>> Sounds fascinating, and I'd like us to be involved. I'm sure we can come to
>> some arrangement with you, precisely what might depend on how many people,
>> how much space, what you want, time of year etc. For example we have large
>> meeting rooms, which could be used, or we could close off an area of the
>> library rather than going for a closed day (since these are only Sundays);
>> the cost would depend on the solution, but we wouldn't be expensive!
>> Catering can be arranged too, depending on how we structure the sessions.
>> Do you want to give me a call, but you can take it as a yes in principle?

As was suggested on the mailing list previously, we could hold a
number of smaller sessions for Wikipedians to improve articles before
the final drive to 1.0 next summer. I've started a page where people
can arrange these meet-ups at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_Weekend. Please see
that page to sign up for the UK meeting, or to arrange meetings in
other locations.

Whilst the idea was initially related to the print version of the
English Wikipedia, it may increase media awareness if the event was
being held simultaneously in non-English speaking countries as well. I
think this could be beneficial even for those Wikipedias not planning
a print edition in the near future. See
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editing_Weekend.

Angela.


from_name: Matthew Trump

body:
How does the Parser recognize whether or not an article title
containing a slash is a subpage or a normal top-level article?

For example [[Nip/Tuck]] (a U.S. television show) in Wikipedia does
not generate an automatic "upward" link to the [[Nip]] article (which
exists), as it would if it were a subpage.

Just curious.

Matthew Trump


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Timwi wrote:
>
>> Anthere wrote:
>>
>>> Second, once a year, we could have a couple of special
>>> awards for developers. I was thinking of for example :
>>> * award for hardware maintenance or improvement
>>> * award for software development
>>> * special award to thank a special dedication to some
>>> features recommanded by the board.
>>
>> Depending on the details of this, I am afraid this could turn out
>> rather detrimental. I don't know about others, but I know I wouldn't
>> even begin to get involved in the development if it takes a ridiculous
>> amount of dedication just to be recognised. (Not saying it would
>> actually -- but if these awards are displayed prominently, it would
>> make that impression.)
>
> Hmmmm, Timwi.
>
> If we had *only* developers having a *ridiculous* dedication to the
> project, working on it perhaps 15 mn per week at most

I meant the other kind of ridiculous. Ridiculously much. Perhaps 6 hours
per day.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Scarcity of Uncle Ed

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> I have been asked to avoid further personal use of the Internet at work,
> and I don't have a high-speed line at home. So, you won't be seeing much
> of Uncle Ed at the Wikipedia website for the indefinite future.

You would not believe how hard it is for me not to do the same...
I succeed not to connect to wp anymore (I rarely did anyway)
I chose not to receive any mails from all wikimedia mailing lists, to
ensure I would not answer ml mails from my job

Now, I still have to kill my email account on yahoo.

...or block yahoo from my computer... not sure... this might be a better
solution. If a nice developer knew how to do that and could explain it
to me... I am interested :-)

> I will continue to administer the English Wikipedia mailing list. And
> post my usual trenchant commentary...
>
> I'll pop in from time to time at the website, but it will be irregular
> and sporadic.

get high speed line at home Ed :-)

> I'm still going to the Boston meeting this Saturday, of course. :-)
>
> Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l administrator replacement

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> Oops! I guess I misunderstood. I thought the recent posts about a new
> WikiEN-l administrator referred to the International list, rather than
> the English list. You know, the "l" looks like an "I"...
>
> I just tried to log in as administrator but found the old password
> didn't work. So I guess that means I've been replaced.
>
> (A private e-mail to me, informing me of this, would have been nice.)
>
> Ed Poor

Ed, I do not think it was against you at all. All passwords have been
replaced for all mailing lists. I have been fired as well ;-)

Ah... s?curit?...s?curit?... quand tu nous tiens
Je t'aurais bien redonn? le nouveau mot de passe de wikien-l, mais je ne
l'ai pas :-)

ant


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> If somebody wants to provide
> bounties, they should put their money where there mouth is and say what
> they want done and what they're willing to pay for it -- either there
> will be bites or there won't.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to centrally organise these offers,
nor is there anything wrong with allowing the community some say over
what the Wikimedia Foundation itself should offer.

Timwi


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Zero's ban

body:
On 07/27/04 19:32, Rebecca wrote:

> So, it seems that this Harry Smith guy has once again gotten himself
> blocked. Current events, this time.
> However, it's also worth noting this guy's record. He's attempted to
> add POV material and subvert consensus that had taken a long time to
> work out on numerous articles. Indeed, before his previous block, I
> believe he'd assaulted not one, not two, but five disputed Middle
> Eastern articles [[UNRWA]] and [[Tali Hatuel]] being two, causing the
> former to be re-protected. He doesn't seem to discuss edits, just
> reverts, or if he does anything, will not give any ground from his
> (usually hardline) position. Thus, if he's getting blocked, this
> shouldn't be much of a surprise - and please don't judge it purely on
> the basis of his latest actions.

The User Formerly Known As OneVoice is on [[Current events]] as a
propagandist. He keeps putting in stories from INN (a partisan news source
whose reports tend not to faintly resemble mainstream press even when one
makes it that far. But don't take my word for it, read http://israelnn.com/
- at least with Slashdot it's just kept out as having a ridiculously small
ambit). I suggest it's nothing like news unless it hits the mainstream
press, or what passes for mainstream in specialist areas. Middle-east
politics is part of the ambit of the mainstream press, so if it's on INN
and nowhere else then it's deeply suspect.

(I have also been accused of bias for cutting completely crappy stories
slanted against Israel, so I must therefore, by the comments on my actions,
be an anti-Semitic Jew.)

[[Current events]] has some sort of vague criteria of newsworthiness.
While not *everything* will be caught by the mainstream newsfeeds, nor
are they certain indicators of worthiness, they do make a handy rough guide.
The INN feed really doesn't cut the mustard.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Zero's ban

body:
On 07/27/04 20:39, S. Vertigo wrote:

> As long as he makes all his edits logged in as Lance -
> I dont see a good enough reason for a ban at this
> time. Pages can and should be protected at the outself
> of trouble erupting; any case you want to make against
> Lance should be done on WP:RFAR, where it looks to be
> accepted.

Protecting [[Current events]] is hardly workable ...

If he keeps to one login, that's a much better idea
and at least then you're dealing with a single identity.
Using anon IPs for sockpuppetry is distinctly bad behaviour.

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Timwi wrote:
>>
>>> Anthere wrote:

> I meant the other kind of ridiculous. Ridiculously much. Perhaps 6 hours
> per day.
>
> Timwi

Ahhhh. Oki. Understood.
Well... having one's name in a hall of fame is not so bad :-)
Even for an editor it takes a *ridiculous* amount of dedication to get
one of the very very very few reward which are currently so scarcely
distributed.
I see not where is the difference.
Well, Timwi, I think having at least recognition is one way to thank
people, because this is one of the thing that please *some* people. And
I guess it is less controversial that *paying* people as a mean to thank
them.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Viajero/Zero and Lance6 - POV terms

body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Calling this squad terrorists,
> calling their act murder, presuming that the squad
> was from Al-Aqsa... all seem
> to be strategies to inflame the issue with
> unverified facts.

...Hence 'disruption,' which appears aimed toward
sabotaging progress. I dont think thats entirely the
case here; the term 'terrorist' is inapropriate as a
primary descriptor; but much of American political
rhetoric uses it. If I replace the term terrorist with
militant, am I farting in the wind, or will I receive
some support? This is a general editorial-type
decision with regard to what terms are NPOV.

To my knowlege, an 'editorial decision process' about
anything (other than the general concept of NPOV) let
alone what terms to avoid has yet to be tried here. It
should be; we should have an editorial board that sets
some journalistic NPOV standards. Heck, even the
Reuters article that Lance6 was quoting was just
mostly an up to the minute hack job.

S

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [Wikitech-l] Interwikilinks on Wikisource

body:
It looks like none of the links to the various wikipedias from
Wikisource are working any more.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Krzysztof Kowalczyk wrote:

> I think the first step should be: put up a list of wanted features,
> period, and advertise it, without the bounty system. Bounty can always
> be added later.
> [...]
> Yes, I know there's a bug system and I know there are wiki page that
> list a lot of ideas on what can be done. But those things are chaotic
> and unprioritized i.e. looking at them I don't really know which
> bugs/features are regarded as highly desirable and which ones are just
> blue sky ideas that wouldn't even be accepted into CVS when done.

Of course, if we had BugZilla instead, this would be trivial. With
BugZilla, you can give each bug a priority, and then you can directly
link to a list of all bugs with a given priority. This is just an
example; there are hundreds of thousands of ways of
cataloguing/categorising bugs in BugZilla.

Maybe instead of the Bounty system, I should volunteer to help install
BugZilla on Wikimedia instead?

> Currently, as I percieve it, one of the barriers to entry for new
> developers is not knowing what to work on.

That's certainly a part of it, too, yes. If we set up BugZilla and find
that it was a miracle cure, there will no longer be a need for payments
and rewards.

> What is missing is a farily short (say <10 items at any given time),
> prioritized list of bugs/features that are known to by highly
> desirable/high priority but not done. At least I'm not aware of such
> list.

Of course, it would be easy for the People In Charge? (Board of
Trustees, say) to make sure that the number of bugs with top priority is
kept at a certain maximum, and the direct link I mentioned above will
always be valid.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] OFFList

body: [Deleted at the request of the sender. -- Fire 07-29-04]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Krzysztof Kowalczyk wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:10:16 -0700, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
>
>>It seems like it would be easy enough for the Foundation to put up
>>a list of wanted features with approximations to how much they're
>>willing to pay.
>
>
> I think the first step should be: put up a list of wanted features,
> period, and advertise it, without the bounty system. Bounty can always
> be added later.
>
> Currently, as I percieve it, one of the barriers to entry for new
> developers is not knowing what to work on.
>
> Yes, I know there's a bug system and I know there are wiki page that
> list a lot of ideas on what can be done. But those things are chaotic
> and unprioritized i.e. looking at them I don't really know which
> bugs/features are regarded as highly desirable and which ones are just
> blue sky ideas that wouldn't even be accepted into CVS when done.
>
> What is missing is a farily short (say <10 items at any given time),
> prioritized list of bugs/features that are known to by highly
> desirable/high priority but not done. At least I'm not aware of such
> list.
>
> This list could be done now, without waiting for the outcome of the
> bounty discussion. It's a pre-requesite to a bounty system anyway and
> in my opinion that's something that has a chance to help and carries
> no risk (except of time spent by an individual who knows what those
> tasks are to prepare this list, publish it somewhere, evangelize and
> maintain up-to-date (assuming that it works and things from those list
> get implemented)).
>
> Krzysztof Kowalczyk | http://blog.kowalczyk.info

I agree :-)


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] interlang link to minnan

body:
Seen it on .is too...

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:46:00 +0800 (CST), Pochung(Pektiong) Chen(Tan)
<pcchen at formosa.org> wrote:
>
> Interlang link to minnan wikipedia is not working properly.
> [[minnan:blah]] will NOT appear in the navigation bar. It will
> appear as part of the text (with correct URL link to
> minnan.wikipedia.org/blah)
>
> Can someone help to fix this?
>
> Thanks
> pektiong
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Mark Bergsma

subject: [Wikitech-l] Geographic DNS for wikipedia

body:
Hi all,

Following up on the geographic DNS discussion on this list, triggered by
the upcoming Squid servers in France, I proposed a solution to the
developers/sysadmins on #mediawiki.

About six months ago, I implemented such a system for our IRC network
Blitzed[1]. We have several servers distributed over the globe, and we
thought it would be nice to send our users to a physically close server.
That's not unlike the situation with wikipedia visitors and the squids
in the US and France.

As I am more or less a PowerDNS[2] developer, I implemented a powerdns
backend for it, called Geobackend. It entered the powerdns source with
the latest release, and therefore is present in most major
distributions, including Debian.

Geobackend parses a rbldnsd format zonefile from countries.nerd.dk (a
well known and reliable DNSBL that maps IPs to their corresponding
countries) into an efficient memory data structure, and uses that to
direct incoming DNS requests to specific A records through CNAMEs, which
can be configured by a so called "director map file" for each "geo
record". In short, each country can be directed to a configured A record.

As a demonstration, I have setup a georecord for wikipedia on our
servers, using our infrastructure. (This costed me about 4 mins of time
to setup, and is therefore probably a faster way for initial tests than
to set it up on multiple wikipedia servers.)

To test, do a

$ dig wikipedia.geo.blitzed.org CNAME

It will give an answer to either squids.fl.us.wikipedia.org, or
squids.fr.eu.wikipedia.org, depending on your DNS resolver's location.
These DNS targets are fictious at the moment (the .fr squids are not on
their final colo location yet), but it's just for initial testing.

Also interesting is

$ dig localhost.geo.blitzed.org A

It should respond with a dotted quad encoded 127.* ip, corresponding to
your country's ISO code number.

We've been using this on Blitzed for the past half year now without any
problems, and I think it would be useful for wikipedia as well.

More information can be found in the README[3] for this backend, and
perhaps in the brainstorming wiki pages[4] we used when writing it.
Proper documentation for it, to be included in the powerdns
documentation, is in the works.

[1] http://www.blitzed.org
[2] http://www.powerdns.com
[3]
http://cvs.blitzed.org/geo-dns/README?rev=1.8&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
[4] http://wiki.blitzed.org/DNS_balancing

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


body:
Mark Bergsma wrote:

> $ dig wikipedia.geo.blitzed.org CNAME
>
> It will give an answer to either squids.fl.us.wikipedia.org, or
> squids.fr.eu.wikipedia.org, depending on your DNS resolver's location.
> These DNS targets are fictious at the moment (the .fr squids are not on
> their final colo location yet), but it's just for initial testing.

Perhaps I should add that it is currently setup to send all european
visitors to the .fr squids, and all others to the existing servers in
the US...

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


body:
S. Vertigo wrote:

>--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Calling this squad terrorists,
>>calling their act murder, presuming that the squad
>>was from Al-Aqsa... all seem
>>to be strategies to inflame the issue with
>>unverified facts.
>>
>>
>
>...Hence 'disruption,' which appears aimed toward
>sabotaging progress. I dont think thats entirely the
>case here; the term 'terrorist' is inapropriate as a
>primary descriptor; but much of American political
>rhetoric uses it. If I replace the term terrorist with
>militant, am I farting in the wind, or will I receive
>some support? This is a general editorial-type
>decision with regard to what terms are NPOV.
>
>To my knowlege, an 'editorial decision process' about
>anything (other than the general concept of NPOV) let
>alone what terms to avoid has yet to be tried here. It
>should be; we should have an editorial board that sets
>some journalistic NPOV standards. Heck, even the
>Reuters article that Lance6 was quoting was just
>mostly an up to the minute hack job.
>
>S
>
>
Setting up some kind of weaponry seems "militant" (or "military") enough
for me.  In a Quebec French context it has come to be applied to any
active supporter of a political party.  I tend to object when that use
is transferred into English.  In the context of the current dispute it's
at least worth trying.  "Militant" can probably be more easily
circumscribed than "terrorist".  Zero's term was "gunmen", and that too
is relatively neutral.  The concept of a good militant is as easily
envisioned as that of a bad militant, and perhaps that is what makes it
more acceptable.  On the other hand the idea of a good terrorist would
be a pretty hard sell.

The level of support a person gets on anything here is unpredictable.
Speaking for myself, I would not have commented but for the fact that
the matter appeared in the mailing list.  I just don't hang out at the
Israel/Palestine articles.  Most of us don't.

I like the idea of a list of tabooed words.  People tend not to
understand words very well, and it gets worse when a controversial
subject is involved.  Understanding that a word has connotations in
addition to its denotaions can be hard to get across.  This episode led
me to dig up my copy of Stuart Chase's "The Tyranny of Words",
originally published in 1938.  He relates the story of asking about 200
people what they thought the word "fascism" meant, and how dramatically
different the answers were, though most had negative connotations.  It
includes "Government in the interest of the majority for the purpose of
accomplishingthings democracy cannot do" or "A govenmentwhere you can
live comfortably if you never disagree with it" or "A form of government
where socialism is used to perpetuate capitalism".

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> 2) Login integration with the wikis.

Hm, how would that work? BugZilla login names are e-mail addresses.

But if you have an idea of how to do this, I'd be very pleased to hear!

> The main other issue is just getting people to keep up with the reports.
> This is grunt work, unfortunately.

What exactly do you mean by that?

If you mean monitoring a Wikipedia (or Meta-Wiki) page for bug reports
and carrying them over to BugZilla, I'll volunteer to do that.

Timwi


from_name: Pochung(Pektiong) Chen(Tan)

subject: [Wikitech-l] interlang link to minnan

body:
Interlang link to minnan wikipedia is not working properly.
[[minnan:blah]] will NOT appear in the navigation bar. It will
appear as part of the text (with correct URL link to
minnan.wikipedia.org/blah)

Can someone help to fix this?

Thanks
pektiong


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Stan Shebs wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> Timwi wrote:
>>
>>> There is nothing wrong with wanting to centrally organise these
>>> offers, nor is there anything wrong with allowing the community some
>>> say over what the Wikimedia Foundation itself should offer.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wake me when the discussion becomes substantive rather than speculative.
>
>
> I think it necessarily has to be somewhat in the subjunctive - "if
> the Foundation were to spend money on software development, how should
> it go about that?" Right now the discussion is like a bunch of
> staffers in the West Wing kicking around ideas, looking for something
> good enough to take to the boss.

Well, I listen :-)

I hear that current situation is not efficient, and that bounty can make
it more efficient.

So, I wonder what else could make processus more efficient (and already,
several goog ideas have been thrown around by several people)

And I wonder if bounties would really make it more efficient as claimed.

I think it is perfectly correct some development would be speed up
compared to others, because of the financial motivation to work on one
task rather than another. So, in that sense, it would be more efficient.

There has been a lot say these days on how much efficient it would be. I
guess it depends a lot on the developer himself. But I trust that
generally, the job would be just as good.

However, success should not be measured only for its technical
consequences, but its social as well.
Consequences on the developer himself, who switch from the "we recognise
your value", to "we appreciate you reached the value we had set". A
Control somehow.
Consequences on other developers, since some are strongly opposed to the
principle, this might mean major dissension possibly.

Finally, consequences on the tissue of the community.
I tend to think that most caritative organisations, one day or another,
get some paid staff to get a few things rolling, while still very
strongly relying on a full set of volunteers. I guess the balance to
achieve makes this very difficult. And even more difficult for us, who
are on the internet, so likely to receive many hours of help from
volunteers.
Compared to most organisations, we will not be able to define "paid as
full time" and "volunteer as from time to time".

I think we all are giving very work, and we are numerous to give a
number of hours hardly reasonable :-) The last thing we want is to
alienate a set of the community for the "sake" of another group.
The last thing I want to hear is, as an argument for bounties, "we
should pay developers, because *they* give so much time and energy, that
they really deserve it". Many arguments for bounties are good, but this
one is just not. Because it immediately set a comparison with the other
groups and instill the idea that developers give more time and more
valuable time than others. This is a very bad idea.
An editor without any software to edit with, is no one.
A tech maintaining servers on which nothing is going on, is no one.
A developer improving a software that no one is using, is no one.

We have different tasks, but all of these tasks are important. And for a
body, spending 4 hours connected on the net, is 4 hours.
So, the interest of using bounties should be balanced with both
technical and social success.

> One thing that I think people have danced around is who's motivated
> by what. If someone can't afford to do a piece of work for free, but
> will do a great job for $500, they're not being evil or immoral; that
> person has just put a price tag on their time. It's then up to the
> Foundation to decide whether it wants the work badly enough to pay up,
> or to wait for somebody to donate their time.

Yes, I also agree there is nothing immoral with that at all.
This just reflects different personal needs.

> It seems like it would be easy enough for the Foundation to put up
> a list of wanted features with approximations to how much they're
> willing to pay. The harder part is to negotiate for the work; the
> more-capable people might charge more, but going cheaper could result
> in an encyclopedia trashed by bad coding. But fundamentally it's the
> same process as negotiating for hardware.
>
> Stan

Though there are some exceptions (such as perhaps setting up the dues
system, which is likely to interest the foundation first hand), I think
this should not be a top down decision.

It is not to the foundation to decide which features are the best.
It is first to the editors and daily activity, to reveal needs.
Then to developers to analyse the problems, and come up with
propositions/solutions.
Then to developers to estimate their solution (prerequisite, how many of
hours, requirements, when could they take care of it, how much they
would ask to do it...).

Depending on this information, the foundation might decide that
apparently feature A is much more needed that feature B, and might use
means to push development of this feature first.


from_name: Rebecca

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Zero's ban

body:
So, it seems that this Harry Smith guy has once again gotten himself
blocked. Current events, this time.

However, it's also worth noting this guy's record. He's attempted to
add POV material and subvert consensus that had taken a long time to
work out on numerous articles. Indeed, before his previous block, I
believe he'd assaulted not one, not two, but five disputed Middle
Eastern articles [[UNRWA]] and [[Tali Hatuel]] being two, causing the
former to be re-protected. He doesn't seem to discuss edits, just
reverts, or if he does anything, will not give any ground from his
(usually hardline) position. Thus, if he's getting blocked, this
shouldn't be much of a surprise - and please don't judge it purely on
the basis of his latest actions.


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Boston meeting????

body:
I would like to formally request that this be publicized on the
wiki itself, perferably on Recent changes, where everyone who is an
editor will see it.  en is sufficient, since that's where we can
reach the widest audience.

We should do this right away.

Someone neeeds to be bold and fix the final details of the meeting:
3:30 at S&S Restaurant in Cambridge.

Daniel P.B.Smith wrote:

>
> > I'm still going to the Boston meeting this Saturday, of course. :-)
> >
>
> What Boston meeting this Saturday?
>
>
> --
> Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net alternate:
> dpbsmith at alum.mit.edu
> "Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
> Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
> Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/
>
>
>

> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Boston meeting????

body:
Er, I said 3:30, but I defer to the wiki page if it says 1pm.

But still, I'd like to see this promoted a bit more heavily, because
it seems like sort of a small crowd so far.

moink wrote:

> > What Boston meeting this Saturday?
>
> This Saturday, 1pm (proposed, looks like it'll be kept) , at the S & S
> Restaurant in Cambridge.  See [[User:Jimbo Wales/Boston]]
>
> moink
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject:
[Wikitech-l] PATCH: A one-line patch that fixes a bug in
	LanguageIs.php

body:
This patch (made with cvs -Q diff -u LanguageIs.php) fixes a bug in
LanguageIs.php which causes the Icelandic wikipedia not to be
displayed in MonoBook by default unless it is set as a user option,
that is, is.wikipedia.org is now by default in the old skin. Not
pretty.
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from_name: Christiaan Briggs

body:
On 28 Jul 2004, at 9:17 am, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> People tend not to understand words very well, and it gets worse when
> a controversial subject is involved.

An understatement to be sure.

Christiaan


from_name: Henry H. Tan-Tenn

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: interlang link to minnan

body:
Pochung(Pektiong) Chen(Tan) wrote:

> Interlang link to minnan wikipedia is not working properly.
> [[minnan:blah]] will NOT appear in the navigation bar. It will
> appear as part of the text (with correct URL link to
> minnan.wikipedia.org/blah)

Well, not always correct.

A few interlanguage links are distorted.  These occur in en (and likely
other non-UTF-8 wikis but I haven't taken a look).  The bad links share
the feature of having article titles ending with the ? (n superior)
character (very common in the Minnan Wikipedia, btw).  Interestingly,
not all such titles are adversely affected.

See
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.3_comments_and_bug_reports
(sect 8.5).

Has anyone seen this type of bug elsewhere?  (Sorry this is a bit OT.)


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Boston meeting???? making it later

body:
I would like to suggest that we try to make it a little later, especially for those of us who are coming in from New York and other places.

In a message dated 7/28/2004 9:04:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> writes:

>
>Er, I said 3:30, but I defer to the wiki page if it says 1pm.
>
>But still, I'd like to see this promoted a bit more heavily, because
>it seems like sort of a small crowd so far.
>
>moink wrote:
>
>> > What Boston meeting this Saturday?
>>
>> This Saturday, 1pm (proposed, looks like it'll be kept) , at the S & S
>> Restaurant in Cambridge. ?See [[User:Jimbo Wales/Boston]]
>>
>> moink
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Tobias Hesse

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikitech-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 74

body:
> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:04:27 +0200
> From: Mark Bergsma <mark at nedworks.org>
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] Geographic DNS for wikipedia
> To: wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <4106DF7B.6030404 at nedworks.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Hi all,
>
> Following up on the geographic DNS discussion on this list, triggered by
> the upcoming Squid servers in France, I proposed a solution to the
> developers/sysadmins on #mediawiki.
>
> About six months ago, I implemented such a system for our IRC network
> Blitzed[1]. We have several servers distributed over the globe, and we
> thought it would be nice to send our users to a physically close server.
> That's not unlike the situation with wikipedia visitors and the squids
> in the US and France.

I remember reading about a similar system of the website of the FIFA 2002 in
Korea/Japan. The problem there was that a system like this doesn't take
advantage of the time difference in different areas of the world and
therefore during the day in Asia the servers there were packed while the
ones in Europe were idling around because everybdy was asleep there.

I don't know how it works for you but I see this as a potential problem.

Tobias Hesse


from_name: David Iberri

subject: [Wikitech-l] templates fields delimiters

body:
--- Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:

> > There is a bad bug currently with templates :
> > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=411192&aid=965725&group_id=34373
>
> I've replied at Sourceforge already, but to reiterate: I think
> enforcing <CR> is a bad idea, because it forces layout which may not
> be appropriate in all circumstances. Better to use something equally
> unique, but less obtrusive, such as "||":
>
> {{template || para1=[[bla|something]] || para2=ooo }}

Sorry if this is obvious, but maybe something could be learned by the way the parser handles
wikilinks in image captions. For example, wikilinks with alt. titles work fine, even though image
properties are separated by pipes:

  [[Image:George-Washington.jpg|thumb|200px|[[George Washington|Washington]] was...]]

-- David Iberri


from_name: Harry Smith

body:
with regard to calling an act murder.  The common
definition of murder and the definition that appears
in wikipedia is:

Murder is the crime of intentionally causing the death
of another human being, without lawful excuse.

If we accept this definition, then we need to ask if
the individuals that shot the boy had lawful excuse.
>From the articles, the reason for the shooting is that
the boy and his family opposed the attempt to use the
family's property/land.  Does the family's refusal
constitute lawful excuse for the shooting?

If its does not constitute lawful excuse, the act is
murder per the first line of the wikipedia entry on
murder.

My question is do we use the term murder for this
shooting or do we change the wikipedia article on
murder?

seems to be a question of wikipedia using its own
definitions for words at wikipedia.

is this type of internal consistency valuable?

if it is not should we make that known?

is using the term murder according to the wikipedia
definition POV?

Sincerely,

Lance6Wins

ps. perhaps the shooter meant to wound rather than
kill.  please repeat the above substituting
manslaugter for murder.

--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> S. Vertigo wrote:
>
> >--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Calling this squad terrorists,
> >>calling their act murder, presuming that the squad
> >>was from Al-Aqsa... all seem
> >>to be strategies to inflame the issue with
> >>unverified facts.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >...Hence 'disruption,' which appears aimed toward
> >sabotaging progress. I dont think thats entirely
> the
> >case here; the term 'terrorist' is inapropriate as
> a
> >primary descriptor; but much of American political
> >rhetoric uses it. If I replace the term terrorist
> with
> >militant, am I farting in the wind, or will I
> receive
> >some support? This is a general editorial-type
> >decision with regard to what terms are NPOV.
> >
> >To my knowlege, an 'editorial decision process'
> about
> >anything (other than the general concept of NPOV)
> let
> >alone what terms to avoid has yet to be tried here.
> It
> >should be; we should have an editorial board that
> sets
> >some journalistic NPOV standards. Heck, even the
> >Reuters article that Lance6 was quoting was just
> >mostly an up to the minute hack job.
> >
> >S
> >
> >
> Setting up some kind of weaponry seems "militant"
> (or "military") enough
> for me.  In a Quebec French context it has come to
> be applied to any
> active supporter of a political party.  I tend to
> object when that use
> is transferred into English.  In the context of the
> current dispute it's
> at least worth trying.  "Militant" can probably be
> more easily
> circumscribed than "terrorist".  Zero's term was
> "gunmen", and that too
> is relatively neutral.  The concept of a good
> militant is as easily
> envisioned as that of a bad militant, and perhaps
> that is what makes it
> more acceptable.  On the other hand the idea of a
> good terrorist would
> be a pretty hard sell.
>
> The level of support a person gets on anything here
> is unpredictable.
> Speaking for myself, I would not have commented but
> for the fact that
> the matter appeared in the mailing list.  I just
> don't hang out at the
> Israel/Palestine articles.  Most of us don't.
>
> I like the idea of a list of tabooed words.  People
> tend not to
> understand words very well, and it gets worse when a
> controversial
> subject is involved.  Understanding that a word has
> connotations in
> addition to its denotaions can be hard to get
> across.  This episode led
> me to dig up my copy of Stuart Chase's "The Tyranny
> of Words",
> originally published in 1938.  He relates the story
> of asking about 200
> people what they thought the word "fascism" meant,
> and how dramatically
> different the answers were, though most had negative
> connotations.  It
> includes "Government in the interest of the majority
> for the purpose of
> accomplishingthings democracy cannot do" or "A
> govenmentwhere you can
> live comfortably if you never disagree with it" or
> "A form of government
> where socialism is used to perpetuate capitalism".
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikitech-l] WebTV user problems?

body:
At least one WebTV user seems to be experiencing problems accessing
Wikipedia.

See:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=23092-40F4AB82-183%40storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net&output=gplain
for their posting on this.

-- Neil


body:
Tobias Hesse wrote:

> I remember reading about a similar system of the website of the FIFA 2002 in
> Korea/Japan. The problem there was that a system like this doesn't take
> advantage of the time difference in different areas of the world and
> therefore during the day in Asia the servers there were packed while the
> ones in Europe were idling around because everybdy was asleep there.
>
> I don't know how it works for you but I see this as a potential problem.

That's correct. However, this could be solved by using a second backend,
that defines the contents of the A record pools. They could then depend
on the current load distribution of the servers, the time of day, or the
position of the moon, or...

On Blitzed, we're implementing such a backend to automatically depool
servers that are disconnected from the network, for example. That way we
can always select the geographically closest server for each user out of
a pool, and don't have to worry about reliability.

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


body:
David the July 23 story at issue was reported in The
New York Times (NYT), The British Broadcasting Company
(BBC), HaAretz, Israel National News (INN), Agence
France Presse (APF) and Al-Hayat Al-Jedidah.

I do not remember if any of them used the word
"murder".  I used the word "murder" based upon the
wikipedia article definition.

I have heard your position regarding INN.  Perhaps
your re-emphasis of this one point is due to my lack
of acknowlegement.

Could you repond to my questions regarding the use of
the term "murder" at wikipedia.

Do we honor our own definition?

Please see previous email regarding the question and
others.

Sincerely,
Lance6Wins

--- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> On 07/28/04 18:07, Harry Smith wrote:
>
> > with regard to calling an act murder.  The common
> > definition of murder and the definition that
> appears
> > in wikipedia is:
> > Murder is the crime of intentionally causing the
> death
> > of another human being, without lawful excuse.
> > If we accept this definition, then we need to ask
> if
> > the individuals that shot the boy had lawful
> excuse.
> >>From the articles, the reason for the shooting is
> that
> > the boy and his family opposed the attempt to use
> the
> > family's property/land.  Does the family's refusal
> > constitute lawful excuse for the shooting?
>
>
> The particular case isn't the issue. What is at
> issue is
> your habit of using the linked words [[terrorist]]
> and
> [[murder]] when you contribute INN news pieces to
> [[Current
> events]]. It's blatant emotive slanting of the
> story. And
> the real problem is it isn't informative - how was
> the
> "murder" in question performed? [[terrorist]] vs
> [[freedom
> fighter]] vs fighter without major military
> hardware? Etc.
>
> Your usage of terms in a blatantly emotive way that
> adds
> nothing to the informational content of the piece is
> a
> real problem.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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body:
--- Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com> wrote:
> with regard to calling an act murder.  The common
> definition of murder and the definition that appears
> in wikipedia is: Murder is the crime of
intentionally causing the death of another human
being, without lawful excuse.

Exactly - though the word excuse doesnt work well.
Better to say 'without lawful reason,' or cause.
Excuse already implies a defiance of an existing law.
Keep in mind now that "law" is also a tricky word;
human law requires context, or juristiction. So,
according to a local variety of "law," it's "murder"
to do that here, but if youre over there, 'go right
ahead.' Is this act called "murder" in Palestine? I
dont know. But even if it was, its a very close call.
I would say that its not our place to pass judgement;
that if "murder" is the judgment of a local "law" for
an event, then we can report that.

> If we accept this definition, then we need to ask if
> the individuals that shot the boy had lawful excuse.

There is no lawful excuse for murder. "Murder" is a
term which carries a meaning of wrongfulness, while
other terms are used for killings which are
"justified," or "lawful." Is murder the term generally
used for cases of "collateral damage" or
"assassination" or "targeted bombing?" etc. etc. While
I agree that its valid to 'call a spade a spade,'
having any pretense of a consistent general policy
would require a preference for the use terms that do
not carry such a judgement.

The reason is that these terms just dont work in an
international discussion context, because 'just cause'
is always an issue of POV, unless the "law" we are all
talking about is in place, active, global, and
applicable equally. Currently neutrality is the only
such law, othet than the law of force; sometimes
called 'tyranny,' juristiction by 'right of might' is
very weak, IMHO, if there are mechanisms and means by
which people are free to communicate clearly.

'Cerely
S

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subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: PATCH: A one-line patch that fixes a bug in
	LanguageIs.php

body:
fuck, yes

"!#$#"$%

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:25:05 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
>
> > -);
> > +) + $wgDefaultUserOptionsIs;
>
> Don't you mean $wgDefaultUserOptionsEn?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Slow SQL Queries?

body:
Claudio V wrote:
> I think if I had "old_title" indexed, things would be
> a lot easier. Any tips?

You should virtually always use namespace and title together as a pair;
they're indexed that way. If you only care about the article namespace,
put in an 'old_namespace=0' clause.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
quite depressing, i didnt get one line of change right >;/

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:31:21 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Please calm down. No need to be vulgar.
>
> I've committed your suggested change.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] fundraising page - shouldn't we note what we are
	aiming for?

body:
Marco Krohn wrote:

>the fundraising page doesn't contain information how much money we are
>aiming for. A potential donator would just see that we have ~20 K$ on our
>account and many probably will think "well, they probably have enough money".
>
>
A certain amount should be identified as a contingency reserve.
Hardware is not consistent when it comes to giving an advance warning of
its impending death.  If it is a key item there may not otherwise be
time to seek the needed funding; immediate replacement would be
essential.  Thus, establishing a contingency reserve at twice the
replacement cost of the most expensive single piece of hardware would be
prudent.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] WebTV user problems?

body:
Neil Harris wrote:
> At least one WebTV user seems to be experiencing problems accessing
> Wikipedia.
>
> See:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=23092-40F4AB82-183%40storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net&output=gplain
> for their posting on this.

Are they talking about Yahoo's search pages or us? I don't understand.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: S. Vertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: "Terrorist" vs. "militant"

body:
--- "Daniel P.B.Smith" <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
> Who knows? Try it and see what happens. It's a wiki,
> all you can do is experiment until you see which
phraseologies achieve a metastable state.

Part of the problem with your solution (though I like
to see such an understanding of wikidynamics) is that
its been so dependent on plain old good writing
ability that it comes out somewhat inconsistently,
athough it isnt as bad as it might have been. Some of
us (no poll taken) are of a mind that we are rehashing
the same old POV battles (usually spawned by an
average quality edit with a poor choice of structure
or wording - which is why reverts are bad form - they
provoke when the issue usually isnt much to argue
about).

Some of us seem to want to get on the same page about
more specific parts of NPOV, and not be labeled a
"cabal" thats enforcing a POV. NPOV in case x means:
this can be generalised and formalized better by a
committee, rather than by talented and talentless
editors arguing over nothing on an article about an
idea of something that never was.

It seems reasonably easy to figure out; neutrality
throughout; from the way things are put down to the
terms used. Having to repeatedly explain the grand
NPOV concept and how it scales down to the choice of
words is a bit tiring. Take my little war over the
'Category:FHM 100 sexiest women' - its just so basic
to those of us who have the remotest clue about NPOV
that its.... silly.  That we now have categories that
are built up about fictional worlds, is kind of
testimony to this sort of problem, if rate of
development outpaces familiarization with NPOV. I had
to convert the whole Category:Rebellion to
Category:Rebel Alliance - someone apparently thought
'rebellions' were limited to the Lucasfilm variety. :\

Anyway, you see where that's going. I think we can
sort be more specific about what NPOV means by the
example of what terms to use and not (as a general
discussion) and this will serve to educate our newbies
better about NPOV. I think here I speak for the
frustrated; maybe even the bemusedly pissed and the
self-recusatory too.

Nufsed,
S

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body:
S Vertigo,

If I read your message correctly, and I might not
language being the poor method of communication that
we  have.

You appear to be saying that words are difficult,
"tricky".

That murder is locally defined, which might be the
case.  Though I dont see why the local definition
criterion should be limited to murder.  Please lets
stay on an even keel about this...there have been
governments that have legalized actions that later
have  been widely characterized as murder.  Indeed 20
century Europe offers examples of this.  Is Wikipedia
to adopt the local definition in these examples?  We
might argue that the local definition has changed
since then, but then could we describe the acts as
murder if they were not locally defined such at the
time?

Sincerely,
Lance6Wins

--- "S. Vertigo" <sewev at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > with regard to calling an act murder.  The common
> > definition of murder and the definition that
> appears
> > in wikipedia is: Murder is the crime of
> intentionally causing the death of another human
> being, without lawful excuse.
>
> Exactly - though the word excuse doesnt work well.
> Better to say 'without lawful reason,' or cause.
> Excuse already implies a defiance of an existing
> law.
> Keep in mind now that "law" is also a tricky word;
> human law requires context, or juristiction. So,
> according to a local variety of "law," it's "murder"
> to do that here, but if youre over there, 'go right
> ahead.' Is this act called "murder" in Palestine? I
> dont know. But even if it was, its a very close
> call.
> I would say that its not our place to pass
> judgement;
> that if "murder" is the judgment of a local "law"
> for
> an event, then we can report that.
>
> > If we accept this definition, then we need to ask
> if
> > the individuals that shot the boy had lawful
> excuse.
>
> There is no lawful excuse for murder. "Murder" is a
> term which carries a meaning of wrongfulness, while
> other terms are used for killings which are
> "justified," or "lawful." Is murder the term
> generally
> used for cases of "collateral damage" or
> "assassination" or "targeted bombing?" etc. etc.
> While
> I agree that its valid to 'call a spade a spade,'
> having any pretense of a consistent general policy
> would require a preference for the use terms that do
> not carry such a judgement.
>
> The reason is that these terms just dont work in an
> international discussion context, because 'just
> cause'
> is always an issue of POV, unless the "law" we are
> all
> talking about is in place, active, global, and
> applicable equally. Currently neutrality is the only
> such law, othet than the law of force; sometimes
> called 'tyranny,' juristiction by 'right of might'
> is
> very weak, IMHO, if there are mechanisms and means
> by
> which people are free to communicate clearly.
>
> 'Cerely
> S
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Disputed news of Mideast Violence (was: Viajero/Zero and
	Lance6 - POV terms)

body:
It's only murder, if there's a 'state' to accuse the perpetrator of the
crime. Do areas under PA administration have laws and courts? Is
interfering with anti-Israeli military operations a crime, or is killing
someone for interering a crime? Sounds like a Point Of View (POV) any
way you look at it.

An American soldier who deliberately shot a civilian for nothing more
than arguing about the placement of heavy weaponry near that civilian's
residence, would be court-martialed. But I've heard that the PA and
militias associated them operate under different rules. (something like,
if you get in our way we'll kill you)

So I suggest these news snippets be divided into two parts:

1. Headline and a couple of sentences, like "16-year-old boy is shot by
Arab militants during argument over heavy weapons, according to initial
reports by This News Source. The report was later amended to say blah,
blah, blah."

2. A longer version of the incident somewhere deeper inside the
Wikipedia, like on an [[Arab-Israeli Violence Timeline]] or [[Violence
in Gaza & the West Bank]] article.

I wrote about an incident between Coalition troops and
non-uniform-wearing Iraqis several months ago, which also had
conflicting and changing news reports. That incident alone took me 3
days of research and editing, before everyone was satisfied. (I'd look
it up, but I'm at work now...)

Ed Poor
Scarce but still chuggin' away


body:
Its a very good question; how does NPOV in historical
perspective, relate to NPOV about current events. Its
been discussed and debated page by page, case by case;
I would like to see some common ground too, but am
entirely unclear on how that would be done.

S

--- Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com> wrote:
> S Vertigo,
>
> If I read your message correctly, and I might not
> language being the poor method of communication that
> we  have.
>
> You appear to be saying that words are difficult,
> "tricky".
>
> That murder is locally defined, which might be the
> case.  Though I dont see why the local definition
> criterion should be limited to murder.  Please lets
> stay on an even keel about this...there have been
> governments that have legalized actions that later
> have  been widely characterized as murder.  Indeed
> 20
> century Europe offers examples of this.  Is
> Wikipedia
> to adopt the local definition in these examples?  We
> might argue that the local definition has changed
> since then, but then could we describe the acts as
> murder if they were not locally defined such at the
> time?
>
> Sincerely,
> Lance6Wins
>
> --- "S. Vertigo" <sewev at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > --- Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > with regard to calling an act murder.  The
> common
> > > definition of murder and the definition that
> > appears
> > > in wikipedia is: Murder is the crime of
> > intentionally causing the death of another human
> > being, without lawful excuse.
> >
> > Exactly - though the word excuse doesnt work well.
> > Better to say 'without lawful reason,' or cause.
> > Excuse already implies a defiance of an existing
> > law.
> > Keep in mind now that "law" is also a tricky word;
> > human law requires context, or juristiction. So,
> > according to a local variety of "law," it's
> "murder"
> > to do that here, but if youre over there, 'go
> right
> > ahead.' Is this act called "murder" in Palestine?
> I
> > dont know. But even if it was, its a very close
> > call.
> > I would say that its not our place to pass
> > judgement;
> > that if "murder" is the judgment of a local "law"
> > for
> > an event, then we can report that.
> >
> > > If we accept this definition, then we need to
> ask
> > if
> > > the individuals that shot the boy had lawful
> > excuse.
> >
> > There is no lawful excuse for murder. "Murder" is
> a
> > term which carries a meaning of wrongfulness,
> while
> > other terms are used for killings which are
> > "justified," or "lawful." Is murder the term
> > generally
> > used for cases of "collateral damage" or
> > "assassination" or "targeted bombing?" etc. etc.
> > While
> > I agree that its valid to 'call a spade a spade,'
> > having any pretense of a consistent general policy
> > would require a preference for the use terms that
> do
> > not carry such a judgement.
> >
> > The reason is that these terms just dont work in
> an
> > international discussion context, because 'just
> > cause'
> > is always an issue of POV, unless the "law" we are
> > all
> > talking about is in place, active, global, and
> > applicable equally. Currently neutrality is the
> only
> > such law, othet than the law of force; sometimes
> > called 'tyranny,' juristiction by 'right of might'
> > is
> > very weak, IMHO, if there are mechanisms and means
> > by
> > which people are free to communicate clearly.
> >
> > 'Cerely
> > S
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download
> now.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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body:
Harry Smith wrote:

>with regard to calling an act murder.  The common
>definition of murder and the definition that appears
>in wikipedia is:
>
>Murder is the crime of intentionally causing the death
>of another human being, without lawful excuse.
>
>If we accept this definition, then we need to ask if
>the individuals that shot the boy had lawful excuse.
>>From the articles, the reason for the shooting is that
>the boy and his family opposed the attempt to use the
>family's property/land.  Does the family's refusal
>constitute lawful excuse for the shooting?
>
>If its does not constitute lawful excuse, the act is
>murder per the first line of the wikipedia entry on
>murder.
>
>My question is do we use the term murder for this
>shooting or do we change the wikipedia article on
>murder?
>
Perhaps we need to change the definition to add something like, "as
determined by a duly constituted tribunal."  The facts outlined above
could very well result in a determination that there was a murder, but
neither we nor our contributors are in a position to make the needed
interrogations that will lead to the truth.  It's not for us to decide.

>seems to be a question of wikipedia using its own
>definitions for words at wikipedia.
>
>is this type of internal consistency valuable?
>
Certainly, and I thank you for pointing out this inconsistency so that
the definition can be repaired.

>if it is not should we make that known?
>
>is using the term murder according to the wikipedia
>definition POV?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Lance6Wins
>
>ps. perhaps the shooter meant to wound rather than
>kill.  please repeat the above substituting
>manslaugter for murder.
>
The only difference between murder and attempted murder is the ability
to shoot straight. :-)

Ec


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Disputed news of Mideast Violence (was: Viajero/Zero
	and Lance6 - POV terms)

body:
--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> An American soldier who deliberately shot a civilian
> for [reason X] would be court-martialed.

They could even get fined. :\

> heard that the PA and militias associated them
>operate under different  rules. (something like, if
>you get in our way we'll kill you)

Thugocracy; I wonder who invented it. The observation
is a little off IMHO; on the one hand, there is such a
thing as Islamic law, which may have some be in place.
International law, which has juristiction, but doesnt
quite have means of overriding a US veto. All of this
is rendered moot by "lawlessness," which is really a
symptom rather than a situation.

> I wrote about an incident between Coalition troops
> and non-uniform-wearing Iraqis several months ago,
which also had conflicting and changing news reports.
That incident alone took me 3 days of research and
editing, before everyone was satisfied.

Current events are always changing; everyones a
critic, and most people dont understand how basic news
style differs from encyclopediasm; its not just POV
edits and terms but a lack of understanding how news
stories are structured.

S

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from_name: Timwi

body:
?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

> -);
> +) + $wgDefaultUserOptionsIs;

Don't you mean $wgDefaultUserOptionsEn?


body:
Ray,

You suggest that we add "as determined by a duly
constituted tribunal." to the wikipedia definition of
murder.

in the case at hand, July 23 slaying (NPOV?) of Hassan
Al-Zanin (sp?) either the group of individuals siting
the weapon on his family's property/land where at
"duly constituted tribunal" or were not.

Are we suggesting that this status arose during the
disagreement with the family or are we saying that the
group of individuals siting the weapon had the status
of "duly constituted tribunal" before they arrived?

Seems hard to make either claim for this group of
individuals, dont you think?

Sincerely,

Lance6Wins

ps.  Where is Zero0000 in all this?  Clearly he has an
opinion on the matter, else this thread would not
exist!

--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Harry Smith wrote:
>
> >with regard to calling an act murder.  The common
> >definition of murder and the definition that
> appears
> >in wikipedia is:
> >
> >Murder is the crime of intentionally causing the
> death
> >of another human being, without lawful excuse.
> >
> >If we accept this definition, then we need to ask
> if
> >the individuals that shot the boy had lawful
> excuse.
> >>From the articles, the reason for the shooting is
> that
> >the boy and his family opposed the attempt to use
> the
> >family's property/land.  Does the family's refusal
> >constitute lawful excuse for the shooting?
> >
> >If its does not constitute lawful excuse, the act
> is
> >murder per the first line of the wikipedia entry on
> >murder.
> >
> >My question is do we use the term murder for this
> >shooting or do we change the wikipedia article on
> >murder?
> >
> Perhaps we need to change the definition to add
> something like, "as
> determined by a duly constituted tribunal."  The
> facts outlined above
> could very well result in a determination that there
> was a murder, but
> neither we nor our contributors are in a position to
> make the needed
> interrogations that will lead to the truth.  It's
> not for us to decide.
>
> >seems to be a question of wikipedia using its own
> >definitions for words at wikipedia.
> >
> >is this type of internal consistency valuable?
> >
> Certainly, and I thank you for pointing out this
> inconsistency so that
> the definition can be repaired.
>
> >if it is not should we make that known?
> >
> >is using the term murder according to the wikipedia
> >definition POV?
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Lance6Wins
> >
> >ps. perhaps the shooter meant to wound rather than
> >kill.  please repeat the above substituting
> >manslaugter for murder.
> >
> The only difference between murder and attempted
> murder is the ability
> to shoot straight. :-)
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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body:
Please calm down. No need to be vulgar.

I've committed your suggested change.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: sitenotice

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:

> I added a generic message called 'sitenotice' to Language.php that
> replaces fundraising_notice and shows up in Special:Allmessages. It's
> parsed as normal wiki syntax now. The code that does this is a live
> tweak in Setup.php on Zwinger currently, imo it would make sense to
> replace $wgSiteNotice with it, with a default of '-' = switched off.
> Opinions?

You're a bit unclear -- I'm not sure if you're saying you're replacing
one "live tweak" with another, or a live tweak with a "proper" UI. My
opinion is obvious: Make a proper UI. ;-) If you're saying that you're
planning to make it so that any sysop can activate the site notice by
setting [[MediaWiki:Sidenotice]] to some text other than '-', then yes,
please go for it.

Timwi


body:
S. Vertigo wrote:

>--- Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>If we accept this definition, then we need to ask if
>>the individuals that shot the boy had lawful excuse.
>>
>>
>
>There is no lawful excuse for murder.
>
In some countries being the president's nephew would be a lawful "excuse"

>"Murder" is a
>term which carries a meaning of wrongfulness, while
>other terms are used for killings which are
>"justified," or "lawful." Is murder the term generally
>used for cases of "collateral damage" or
>"assassination" or "targeted bombing?" etc. etc. While
>I agree that its valid to 'call a spade a spade,'
>having any pretense of a consistent general policy
>would require a preference for the use terms that do
>not carry such a judgement.
>
Many people here in Canada believe that Harry Schmidt got away with
murder when he recklessly killed the four soldiers on April 17, 2002.

Ec


from_name: Claudio V

subject: [Wikitech-l] Slow SQL Queries?

body:
Hi,

Is there a way to run fast queries (perhaps using
indexes) using the "old" table in my replication of
the English Wikipedia database (MySQL 4.0.20)? When
I've tried queries that include the field "old_title",
the simplest queries run for up to an hour on my AMD
Athlon XP 2400+ and 512 MB RAM on Windows XP
Professional. The more complex ones I'm trying to run
take dozens of hours--one query ran for five days,
before I finally quit it.

I've configured MySQL using the configuration options
that I list at the botton of this e-mail, but things
are still unbearably slow. An example of the type of
query I've been trying to run would be:

select distinct old_user, old_user_text
from old
where old_user > 0
and old_title like 'History_of_%';

I'm surprised that this sort of query runs so slowly,
considering that when on the live Wikipedia, you click
on "User Contributions" and get a list of responses
with lightning speed. Is there a faster way to search
on all the historic changes to Wikipedia that I'm
overlooking? I'd really appreciate any help anyone
could give me.

Thanks,

Claudio

[mysqld]
basedir=D:/www/mysql
#bind-address=192.168.2.22
datadir=D:/www/mysql/data
#language=D:/www/mysql/share/your language directory
#slow query log#=
#tmpdir#=
#port=3306
set-variable=key_buffer=128M
set-variable= max_allowed_packet=1M
set-variable=table_cache=256
set-variable=sort_buffer_size=4M
set-variable=read_buffer_size=4M
set-variable=myisam_sort_buffer_size=64M
set-variable	= thread_cache=8
set-variable	= thread_concurrency=2
set-variable	=tmp_table_size=64M

set-variable=innodb_buffer_pool_size=140M
set-variable=innodb_additional_mem_pool_size=10M

[mysqldump]
quick
set-variable	= max_allowed_packet=16M

[isamchk]
set-variable	= key_buffer=128M
set-variable	= sort_buffer=128M
set-variable	= read_buffer=2M
set-variable	= write_buffer=2M

[myisamchk]
set-variable	= key_buffer=128M
set-variable	= sort_buffer=128M
set-variable	= read_buffer=2M
set-variable	= write_buffer=2M

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca


from_name: Geoffrey Burling

body:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Harry Smith wrote:
>
> >with regard to calling an act murder.  The common
> >definition of murder and the definition that appears
> >in wikipedia is:
> >
> >Murder is the crime of intentionally causing the death
> >of another human being, without lawful excuse.
> >
> >If we accept this definition, then we need to ask if
> >the individuals that shot the boy had lawful excuse.
> >>From the articles, the reason for the shooting is that
> >the boy and his family opposed the attempt to use the
> >family's property/land.  Does the family's refusal
> >constitute lawful excuse for the shooting?
> >
[snip]
> >
> Perhaps we need to change the definition to add something like, "as
> determined by a duly constituted tribunal."  The facts outlined above
> could very well result in a determination that there was a murder, but
> neither we nor our contributors are in a position to make the needed
> interrogations that will lead to the truth.  It's not for us to decide.

Many years ago, I took a couple of journalism classes in college. One of the
few things I remember is that when writing about unlawful activities, one
must carefully use specific words to qualify the charge, such as "accused",
"alleged", "indicted", & "convicted". For example:

*President Bush, alleged cocaine abuser

*The CIA allegedly sold drugs in Los Angeles to fund the Contras in Nicaraugua

*Kenneth Lay, indicted for corporate fraud

*Martha Stewart, convicted of insider trading

Note carefully that what is being asserted is not whether or not any of the
people mentioned _actually_ committed the crimes, merely the opinions of
a large number of people, or the official verdicts of the American legal
system. And it has been documented that individuals are occasionally
arrested, tried & convicted for crimes that they are later shown not to have
committed -- thus we cannot assert that conviction for a crime means that it
was an NPOV fact that they actualy committed that specific crime.

Also note that these phrases are based on Anglo-American law, where people
are arrested, indicted by a grand jury, then found innocent or guilty by a
court. I'm not sure just what the equivalent terminology in Civil Law would
be. If a prosecuting judge charges someone with a crime, would it be correct
to say that the person charged is indicted?

I think is a solution that would nicely fit with the rules of NPOV.

Geoff


body:
Harry Smith wrote:

>Ray,
>
>You suggest that we add "as determined by a duly
>constituted tribunal." to the wikipedia definition of
>murder.
>
>in the case at hand, July 23 slaying (NPOV?) of Hassan
>Al-Zanin (sp?) either the group of individuals siting
>the weapon on his family's property/land where at
>"duly constituted tribunal" or were not.
>
>Are we suggesting that this status arose during the
>disagreement with the family or are we saying that the
>group of individuals siting the weapon had the status
>of "duly constituted tribunal" before they arrived?
>
>Seems hard to make either claim for this group of
>individuals, dont you think?
>
>
Without presuming to know anything about the judicial structure of
Palestine, a "duly constituted tribunal" would likely be a court
established under the laws of the Palestinian Republic.  I would
certainly not vest that authority in a lynch mob established by either
party to the dispute.

Ec


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] sitenotice

body:
I added a generic message called 'sitenotice' to Language.php that
replaces fundraising_notice and shows up in Special:Allmessages. It's
parsed as normal wiki syntax now. The code that does this is a live
tweak in Setup.php on Zwinger currently, imo it would make sense to
replace $wgSiteNotice with it, with a default of '-' = switched off.
Opinions?
--
Gabriel Wicke


body:
Geoffrey Burling wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>
>>Perhaps we need to change the definition to add something like, "as
>>determined by a duly constituted tribunal."  The facts outlined above
>>could very well result in a determination that there was a murder, but
>>neither we nor our contributors are in a position to make the needed
>>interrogations that will lead to the truth.  It's not for us to decide.
>>
>>
>
>Many years ago, I took a couple of journalism classes in college. One of the
>few things I remember is that when writing about unlawful activities, one
>must carefully use specific words to qualify the charge, such as "accused",
>"alleged", "indicted", & "convicted". For example:
>
>*President Bush, alleged cocaine abuser
>
>*The CIA allegedly sold drugs in Los Angeles to fund the Contras in Nicaraugua
>
>*Kenneth Lay, indicted for corporate fraud
>
>*Martha Stewart, convicted of insider trading
>
People could have fun with, "acquitted murderer, O. J. Simpson."??? :-$

>Note carefully that what is being asserted is not whether or not any of the
>people mentioned _actually_ committed the crimes, merely the opinions of
>a large number of people, or the official verdicts of the American legal
>system. And it has been documented that individuals are occasionally
>arrested, tried & convicted for crimes that they are later shown not to have
>committed -- thus we cannot assert that conviction for a crime means that it
>was an NPOV fact that they actualy committed that specific crime.
>
For now I would be happy to see resolution on the mainstream of these
issues.  There will also be cases of exoneration, as with the boxer
Hurricane Carter, but these are the exceptions that merit special attention.

>Also note that these phrases are based on Anglo-American law, where people
>are arrested, indicted by a grand jury, then found innocent or guilty by a
>court. I'm not sure just what the equivalent terminology in Civil Law would
>be. If a prosecuting judge charges someone with a crime, would it be correct
>to say that the person charged is indicted?
>
The terms need to be kept simple and generic.  "Accused" and "alleged"
can probably be merged.  "Indicted" may be a term that depends on the
nature of the legal system, but where applicable lends itself well to
precise definition.  "Convicted" is easily understood.

>I think is a solution that would nicely fit with the rules of NPOV.
>
>
Ec