body:
Arne Klempert <wikipedia at klempert.de> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:03 AM
Angela wrote:

> Delirium wrote:
>> I'd personally prefer if important things, like votes for
>> foundations, not take place at "in-person" meetings, because not all
>> of us have sufficient funds to attend such meetings. Internet
>> elections are much more inclusive.

German law requires "in-person" meetings for the setup of a "Verein".

> I don't believe on-line voting is legal in all countries, so it may
> not be possible for all of the Wikimedia chapters to do this. I do
> think that postal voting should usually be made available though, and
> the recently formed German Wikimedia Association certainly allows for
> this. ? 8.2 of the Verein's bylaws
> (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vereinssatzung) state that
> when elections are taking place, the possibility of voting remotely
> must be given to the members (by post or fax as far as I could tell).

On-line voting is possible in theory but up to now it's extremely
difficult to do this legally effective. Afaik there is only *one* german
"Verein" who did this - and there are a great many of such associations
in Germany. I'm sure this becomes more easier in the future but until
then we have to do absentee votes (as stated in the bylaws this is
necessary for board elections and changing the bylaws) by snail mail, at
least for those members who are not able or willing to come to the
annual meetings.

> Congratulations again to everyone elected, and to all those who worked
> so hard in getting this set up.

Thank you, Angela. It was a great pleasure to have you with us in
Berlin.

-akl

I concur with Mark wish for online voting, but I know it is not always possible.

We were wondering as well if it was possible for the french wikipedia local chapter, and indeed e-vote is legally acceptable now. However, it is still very recent, so little use. I hope it becomes widely legal soon.

Anyway, I am real glad that the german association was finally founded. I would be happy to discuss a bit its organisation and the roles it intends to hold with anyone involved in it. I would be like to do so, both as an interesting reference to be used for next local-chapter-to-be, and of course, to see how the Wikimedia Foundation and the local chapter could be related in the best way.

I regret I was not among you, it would have been nice to meet german wikipedians...

Florence/Anthere

---------------------------------
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list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Foundation-l] announcement: german wikimedia
	association(verein) founded

body:
Arne Klempert <wikipedia at klempert.de> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:03 AM
Angela wrote:

> Delirium wrote:
>> I'd personally prefer if important things, like votes for
>> foundations, not take place at "in-person" meetings, because not all
>> of us have sufficient funds to attend such meetings. Internet
>> elections are much more inclusive.

German law requires "in-person" meetings for the setup of a "Verein".

> I don't believe on-line voting is legal in all countries, so it may
> not be possible for all of the Wikimedia chapters to do this. I do
> think that postal voting should usually be made available though, and
> the recently formed German Wikimedia Association certainly allows for
> this. ? 8.2 of the Verein's bylaws
> (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vereinssatzung) state that
> when elections are taking place, the possibility of voting remotely
> must be given to the members (by post or fax as far as I could tell).

On-line voting is possible in theory but up to now it's extremely
difficult to do this legally effective. Afaik there is only *one* german
"Verein" who did this - and there are a great many of such associations
in Germany. I'm sure this becomes more easier in the future but until
then we have to do absentee votes (as stated in the bylaws this is
necessary for board elections and changing the bylaws) by snail mail, at
least for those members who are not able or willing to come to the
annual meetings.

> Congratulations again to everyone elected, and to all those who worked
> so hard in getting this set up.

Thank you, Angela. It was a great pleasure to have you with us in
Berlin.

-akl

I concur with Mark wish for online voting, but I know it is not always possible.

We were wondering as well if it was possible for the french wikipedia local chapter, and indeed e-vote is legally acceptable now. However, it is still very recent, so little use. I hope it becomes widely legal soon.

Anyway, I am real glad that the german association was finally founded. I would be happy to discuss a bit its organisation and the roles it intends to hold with anyone involved in it. I would be like to do so, both as an interesting reference to be used for next local-chapter-to-be, and of course, to see how the Wikimedia Foundation and the local chapter could be related in the best way.

I regret I was not among you, it would have been nice to meet german wikipedians...

Florence/Anthere

---------------------------------
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body:
Arne Klempert <wikipedia at klempert.de> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:03 AM
Angela wrote:

> Delirium wrote:
>> I'd personally prefer if important things, like votes for
>> foundations, not take place at "in-person" meetings, because not all
>> of us have sufficient funds to attend such meetings. Internet
>> elections are much more inclusive.

German law requires "in-person" meetings for the setup of a "Verein".

> I don't believe on-line voting is legal in all countries, so it may
> not be possible for all of the Wikimedia chapters to do this. I do
> think that postal voting should usually be made available though, and
> the recently formed German Wikimedia Association certainly allows for
> this. ? 8.2 of the Verein's bylaws
> (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vereinssatzung) state that
> when elections are taking place, the possibility of voting remotely
> must be given to the members (by post or fax as far as I could tell).

On-line voting is possible in theory but up to now it's extremely
difficult to do this legally effective. Afaik there is only *one* german
"Verein" who did this - and there are a great many of such associations
in Germany. I'm sure this becomes more easier in the future but until
then we have to do absentee votes (as stated in the bylaws this is
necessary for board elections and changing the bylaws) by snail mail, at
least for those members who are not able or willing to come to the
annual meetings.

> Congratulations again to everyone elected, and to all those who worked
> so hard in getting this set up.

Thank you, Angela. It was a great pleasure to have you with us in
Berlin.

-akl

I concur with Mark wish for online voting, but I know it is not always possible.

We were wondering as well if it was possible for the french wikipedia local chapter, and indeed e-vote is legally acceptable now. However, it is still very recent, so little use. I hope it becomes widely legal soon.

Anyway, I am real glad that the german association was finally founded. I would be happy to discuss a bit its organisation and the roles it intends to hold with anyone involved in it. I would be like to do so, both as an interesting reference to be used for next local-chapter-to-be, and of course, to see how the Wikimedia Foundation and the local chapter could be related in the best way.

I regret I was not among you, it would have been nice to meet german wikipedians...

Florence/Anthere

---------------------------------
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list: wikien-l

from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wik's Vandal Bot?

body:
I am trying to get an arbitration ruling on this as part of Wik2. Better
evidence that the vandal bot is actually Wik would be helpful.

Fred

> From: "KNOTT, T" <tknott at qcl.org.uk>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:36:36 +0100
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] [wik1234 at fastmail.fm: Quagga's vandalism]
>
>> No he is not hard banned for life. He will, however, probably get a
> month >ban
>> the moment he comes back due to the fact that he broke the terms of his
>> week-long ban a few times. That is in the enforcement section of our
> (the >AC's)
>> ruling on the issue.
>
> Violating a week long ban is one thing. Running a script to vandalize
> wikipedia repeatedly until we cave in for to his demands is something
> else. Assuming Jimbo posts the full header to confirm it wasn't faked,
> then I don't see we even need an AC ruling. This is simple vandalism. We
> block vandals all the time.
>
> Theresa
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] announcement: german wikimedia....

body:
Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
Hi all,

Le Wednesday 16 June 2004 01:32, Elisabeth Bauer a ?crit :
> Hello all,
>
> I'm sure the news is already around, but here is something like a
> official announcement:
>
> On sunday 13th of June German wikipedians founded a local wikimedia
> association in Berlin: the ''Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur
> F?rderung Freien Wissens'' (''Wikimedia Germany - society for the
> promotion of free knowledge''). We had 34 founding members - among them
> friends of wikipedia and of course a lot of people of the german wikipedia.
>
> A board of trustees with ten members was elected, among them Kurt
> Jansson as chairman. The whole board consists of:
> * Kurt Jansson (1. chairman)
> * Arne Klempert - akl (2. chairman)
> * Elisabeth Bauer - elian (secretary)
> * Henriette Fiebig (treasurer)
> * Daniel Baur (assessor)
> * Andr? Darmochwal (assessor)
> * Joachim Kerschbaumer (assessor)
> * Achim Raschka (assessor)
> * Mathias Schindler (assessor)
> * Jakob Vo? (assessor)

Congratulations for the creation of the first local chapter, to the new board
members, and to all members and contributors!

I hope that we can set up a local chapter in France soon, and that we can
eventually collaborate and that our experience could benefit each other
organisation.

I also regret that I could not come to Berlin for the meeting.

> greetings,
> elian, akl, sansculotte

greetings,
Yann

Yann, je pense que l association allemande a raison d'?lire un board plus important en terme num?rique. 3 est le minimum l?gal, mais un plus grand nombre apportera plus de diversit? et permettrait de r?partir la charge de travail entre les diff?rentes personnes. Qu'en penses tu ? Nous avons suffisemment de personnes au comit? de pilotage maintenant, pour que cela soit possible.

---------------------------------
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body:
Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
Hi all,

Le Wednesday 16 June 2004 01:32, Elisabeth Bauer a ?crit :
> Hello all,
>
> I'm sure the news is already around, but here is something like a
> official announcement:
>
> On sunday 13th of June German wikipedians founded a local wikimedia
> association in Berlin: the ''Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur
> F?rderung Freien Wissens'' (''Wikimedia Germany - society for the
> promotion of free knowledge''). We had 34 founding members - among them
> friends of wikipedia and of course a lot of people of the german wikipedia.
>
> A board of trustees with ten members was elected, among them Kurt
> Jansson as chairman. The whole board consists of:
> * Kurt Jansson (1. chairman)
> * Arne Klempert - akl (2. chairman)
> * Elisabeth Bauer - elian (secretary)
> * Henriette Fiebig (treasurer)
> * Daniel Baur (assessor)
> * Andr? Darmochwal (assessor)
> * Joachim Kerschbaumer (assessor)
> * Achim Raschka (assessor)
> * Mathias Schindler (assessor)
> * Jakob Vo? (assessor)

Congratulations for the creation of the first local chapter, to the new board
members, and to all members and contributors!

I hope that we can set up a local chapter in France soon, and that we can
eventually collaborate and that our experience could benefit each other
organisation.

I also regret that I could not come to Berlin for the meeting.

> greetings,
> elian, akl, sansculotte

greetings,
Yann

Yann, je pense que l association allemande a raison d'?lire un board plus important en terme num?rique. 3 est le minimum l?gal, mais un plus grand nombre apportera plus de diversit? et permettrait de r?partir la charge de travail entre les diff?rentes personnes. Qu'en penses tu ? Nous avons suffisemment de personnes au comit? de pilotage maintenant, pour que cela soit possible.

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
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body:
Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
Hi all,

Le Wednesday 16 June 2004 01:32, Elisabeth Bauer a ?crit :
> Hello all,
>
> I'm sure the news is already around, but here is something like a
> official announcement:
>
> On sunday 13th of June German wikipedians founded a local wikimedia
> association in Berlin: the ''Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur
> F?rderung Freien Wissens'' (''Wikimedia Germany - society for the
> promotion of free knowledge''). We had 34 founding members - among them
> friends of wikipedia and of course a lot of people of the german wikipedia.
>
> A board of trustees with ten members was elected, among them Kurt
> Jansson as chairman. The whole board consists of:
> * Kurt Jansson (1. chairman)
> * Arne Klempert - akl (2. chairman)
> * Elisabeth Bauer - elian (secretary)
> * Henriette Fiebig (treasurer)
> * Daniel Baur (assessor)
> * Andr? Darmochwal (assessor)
> * Joachim Kerschbaumer (assessor)
> * Achim Raschka (assessor)
> * Mathias Schindler (assessor)
> * Jakob Vo? (assessor)

Congratulations for the creation of the first local chapter, to the new board
members, and to all members and contributors!

I hope that we can set up a local chapter in France soon, and that we can
eventually collaborate and that our experience could benefit each other
organisation.

I also regret that I could not come to Berlin for the meeting.

> greetings,
> elian, akl, sansculotte

greetings,
Yann

Yann, je pense que l association allemande a raison d'?lire un board plus important en terme num?rique. 3 est le minimum l?gal, mais un plus grand nombre apportera plus de diversit? et permettrait de r?partir la charge de travail entre les diff?rentes personnes. Qu'en penses tu ? Nous avons suffisemment de personnes au comit? de pilotage maintenant, pour que cela soit possible.

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
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body:
Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
Hi all,

Le Wednesday 16 June 2004 01:32, Elisabeth Bauer a ?crit :
> Hello all,
>
> I'm sure the news is already around, but here is something like a
> official announcement:
>
> On sunday 13th of June German wikipedians founded a local wikimedia
> association in Berlin: the ''Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur
> F?rderung Freien Wissens'' (''Wikimedia Germany - society for the
> promotion of free knowledge''). We had 34 founding members - among them
> friends of wikipedia and of course a lot of people of the german wikipedia.
>
> A board of trustees with ten members was elected, among them Kurt
> Jansson as chairman. The whole board consists of:
> * Kurt Jansson (1. chairman)
> * Arne Klempert - akl (2. chairman)
> * Elisabeth Bauer - elian (secretary)
> * Henriette Fiebig (treasurer)
> * Daniel Baur (assessor)
> * Andr? Darmochwal (assessor)
> * Joachim Kerschbaumer (assessor)
> * Achim Raschka (assessor)
> * Mathias Schindler (assessor)
> * Jakob Vo? (assessor)

Congratulations for the creation of the first local chapter, to the new board
members, and to all members and contributors!

I hope that we can set up a local chapter in France soon, and that we can
eventually collaborate and that our experience could benefit each other
organisation.

I also regret that I could not come to Berlin for the meeting.

> greetings,
> elian, akl, sansculotte

greetings,
Yann

Yann, je pense que l association allemande a raison d'?lire un board plus important en terme num?rique. 3 est le minimum l?gal, mais un plus grand nombre apportera plus de diversit? et permettrait de r?partir la charge de travail entre les diff?rentes personnes. Qu'en penses tu ? Nous avons suffisemment de personnes au comit? de pilotage maintenant, pour que cela soit possible.

---------------------------------
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subject:
[Foundation-l] announcement: german
	wikimediaassociation(verein) founded

body:
Arne Klempert <wikipedia at klempert.de> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:06 AM
Anthere wrote:

>> Anyway, I am real glad that the german association was finally
>> founded. I would be happy to discuss a bit its organisation and the
>> roles it intends to hold with anyone involved in it. I would be like
>> to do so, both as an interesting reference to be used for next
>> local-chapter-to-be, and of course, to see how the Wikimedia
>> Foundation and the local chapter could be related in the best way.

> I'm interested in this discussion, too. I hope my english is well enough
> for this heavy stuff. As the first step we should perhaps translate the
> bylaws.

Yes, that is a very good idea. We should place this on meta and start organising all this a little over time.
My german is certainly not good enough for administrative documentation. I know the english translation of most terms in agriculture, but frankly not in associative legal issues :-) We'll learn the vocabulary little by little Arne :-)

>> I regret I was not among you, it would have been nice to meet
>> german wikipedians...

> You've missed a fantastic weekend. But I'm sure it won't be the last
> one, so don't be too sad.

> -akl

Da !

PS : I can roughly understand what a text in german is about, but really do not speak it anymore. I forgot it all :-(
Only 5 years of German at school :-)

---------------------------------
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body:
Arne Klempert <wikipedia at klempert.de> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:06 AM
Anthere wrote:

>> Anyway, I am real glad that the german association was finally
>> founded. I would be happy to discuss a bit its organisation and the
>> roles it intends to hold with anyone involved in it. I would be like
>> to do so, both as an interesting reference to be used for next
>> local-chapter-to-be, and of course, to see how the Wikimedia
>> Foundation and the local chapter could be related in the best way.

> I'm interested in this discussion, too. I hope my english is well enough
> for this heavy stuff. As the first step we should perhaps translate the
> bylaws.

Yes, that is a very good idea. We should place this on meta and start organising all this a little over time.
My german is certainly not good enough for administrative documentation. I know the english translation of most terms in agriculture, but frankly not in associative legal issues :-) We'll learn the vocabulary little by little Arne :-)

>> I regret I was not among you, it would have been nice to meet
>> german wikipedians...

> You've missed a fantastic weekend. But I'm sure it won't be the last
> one, so don't be too sad.

> -akl

Da !

PS : I can roughly understand what a text in german is about, but really do not speak it anymore. I forgot it all :-(
Only 5 years of German at school :-)

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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body:
Arne Klempert <wikipedia at klempert.de> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:06 AM
Anthere wrote:

>> Anyway, I am real glad that the german association was finally
>> founded. I would be happy to discuss a bit its organisation and the
>> roles it intends to hold with anyone involved in it. I would be like
>> to do so, both as an interesting reference to be used for next
>> local-chapter-to-be, and of course, to see how the Wikimedia
>> Foundation and the local chapter could be related in the best way.

> I'm interested in this discussion, too. I hope my english is well enough
> for this heavy stuff. As the first step we should perhaps translate the
> bylaws.

Yes, that is a very good idea. We should place this on meta and start organising all this a little over time.
My german is certainly not good enough for administrative documentation. I know the english translation of most terms in agriculture, but frankly not in associative legal issues :-) We'll learn the vocabulary little by little Arne :-)

>> I regret I was not among you, it would have been nice to meet
>> german wikipedians...

> You've missed a fantastic weekend. But I'm sure it won't be the last
> one, so don't be too sad.

> -akl

Da !

PS : I can roughly understand what a text in german is about, but really do not speak it anymore. I forgot it all :-(
Only 5 years of German at school :-)

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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body:
Arne Klempert <wikipedia at klempert.de> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:06 AM
Anthere wrote:

>> Anyway, I am real glad that the german association was finally
>> founded. I would be happy to discuss a bit its organisation and the
>> roles it intends to hold with anyone involved in it. I would be like
>> to do so, both as an interesting reference to be used for next
>> local-chapter-to-be, and of course, to see how the Wikimedia
>> Foundation and the local chapter could be related in the best way.

> I'm interested in this discussion, too. I hope my english is well enough
> for this heavy stuff. As the first step we should perhaps translate the
> bylaws.

Yes, that is a very good idea. We should place this on meta and start organising all this a little over time.
My german is certainly not good enough for administrative documentation. I know the english translation of most terms in agriculture, but frankly not in associative legal issues :-) We'll learn the vocabulary little by little Arne :-)

>> I regret I was not among you, it would have been nice to meet
>> german wikipedians...

> You've missed a fantastic weekend. But I'm sure it won't be the last
> one, so don't be too sad.

> -akl

Da !

PS : I can roughly understand what a text in german is about, but really do not speak it anymore. I forgot it all :-(
Only 5 years of German at school :-)

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Jiong Sheng

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia language

body:
I thought Chinese Wikipedians have reached consensus at the beginning
of the Chinese Wikipedia project two years ago that traditional and
simplified Chinese should be put together, because essentially they
are one language, with the same grammar and vocabulary. The difference
between traditional and simplified Chinese sometimes is even subtler
than the difference between American and British English.

Most native speakers of the Chinese language can read both sets of
writing system. No one has yet complained that they cannot read
simplified Chinese or traditional Chinese. Our ultimate goal is to
develop an auto conversion script that would display simplified or
traditional Chinese according to users' preference. Progress is slow,
but efforts have been put in. (See
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:%E7%B9%81%E7%AE%80%E4%BD%93%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98)

The Chinese Wikipedia is not a Simplified Chinese Wikipedia or
Traditional Chinese Wikipedia, but rather a mixture of the two. You
can contribute in both simplified or traditional Chinese. Currently
very few articles are split into two versions, and we now encourage
all contributors to concentrate their efforts in one version of the
article with both traditional and simplified Chinese. Of course
majority of the articles are written in Simplified Chinese, as most
contributors come from mainland. But still there are many articles
written mainly in traditional Chinese, especially those articles
associated with Taiwan.

formulax

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:43:44 +0000, Ian Mackinnon
<ianm2000uk at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, not really a new language, but I'm frustrated that Traditional Chinese
> is lumped into the  Simplified Chinese version of Wikipedia. The problem
> with this is the main page is only in Simplified Chinese and when looking up
> articles, it does not go directly to the page but gives the option to choose
> whether you want to go to the simplified or the traditional version.
>
> I strongly request that the Traditional Chinese version of Wikipedia be
> given it's own language space, tw.wikipedia.org would be better. It should
> be common sense that these 2 styles of writing should not be combined
> together. Overseas Chinese and non-China born/educated persons who studied
> traditional Chinese writing have difficulty reading the simplified version.
> The current configuration just makes it frustrating to browse articles.
>
> A real good argument I can give for this is why does wikipedia have
> simple.wikipedia.org for "Simple English" instead of it being lumped into
> en.wikipedia.org? I hope you see what I'm talking about and split
> zh.wikipedia.org and tw.wikipedia.org so there's no more confusion for
> Chinese readers of wikipedia.org
>
> Thanks!
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!
> http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wik's Vandal Bot?

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

>I am trying to get an arbitration ruling on this as part of Wik2. Better
>evidence that the vandal bot is actually Wik would be helpful.
>
>
I'm not sure this is really something the arbitration committee needs to
deal with.  If Wik ran a vandal bot, I assume there's a consensus to ban
him.  So it seems to be simply a matter of facts (was the vandal bot Wik
or not?), and the arbitration committee has no particular knowledge that
the general community doesn't have when it comes to deciding that issue.

-Mark


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Theora bitstream frozen...

body:
Robert Graham Merkel wrote:

>I think we are now in a position to go ahead and start adding Theora
>videos to Wikipedia, if anybody has suitable video to add!
>
>
I'm not sure adding videos to Wikipedia in a format that almost nobody
can play is really the absolute best thing to do, even if it is all
fuzzy and open source...

-Mark


from_name: Angela

subject:
[Foundation-l] announcement: german wikimedia association
	(verein) founded

body:
Delirium wrote:
> I'd personally prefer if important things, like votes for
> foundations, not take place at "in-person" meetings, because not all of
> us have sufficient funds to attend such meetings.  Internet elections
> are much more inclusive.

I don't believe on-line voting is legal in all countries, so it may
not be possible for all of the Wikimedia chapters to do this. I do
think that postal voting should usually be made available though, and
the recently formed  German Wikimedia Association certainly allows for
this. ? 8.2 of the Verein's bylaws
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vereinssatzung) state that
when elections are taking place, the possibility of voting remotely
must be given to the members (by post or fax as far as I could tell).

Elisabeth Bauer wrote:

> On sunday 13th of June German wikipedians founded a local wikimedia
> association in Berlin.

Congratulations again to everyone elected, and to all those who worked
so hard in getting this set up.

Angela.


subject: [WikiEN-l] IP lookups for stewards

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> >Speaking of which, it would be nice for stewards to have the ability to check
> >those logs in these cases. Our developers seem to be overworked as it is.
> >-- mav

If a new system is implemented whereby IPs are stored in the database
and not just in the log files, I would have no objection to stewards
having access to these. However, until then, I do not support stewards
being given access to the same logs that the developers currently have
to check for IPs. Firstly, it would be largely a waste of time as they
are too large to search through efficiently, and secondly, they
include details of not only page saves, but also page views. This
would be too much of a privacy violation if stewards had that sort of
information.

Angela.


from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [WikiEN-l] [wik1234@fastmail.fm: Quagga's vandalism]

body:
On Wednesday 16 June 2004 02:58, Phil Sandifer wrote:
> Jimbo seems to have already provided this: "The usual.  The threat here
> is direct and warrants a permanent ban.  I can confirm this email to be
> that of user Wik, because he emailed me using this account before he
> was banned, etc.  The two are adequately
> associated"

It is very easy to forge From: field of an e-mail. I would like to take a look
at entire header. (Or, Wik could be asked did he really wrote that.)


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] UTF-8 on English Wikipedia?

body:
On Tuesday 15 June 2004 08:09, Constans, Camille (C.C.) wrote:
> >> We'd love to, but we need to either a) take it offline for a
> >
> >few days or
> >
> >> b) invent a way to convert the database without data loss or damage
> >> while keeping it online.
> >>
> >> -- brion vibber (brino @ pobox.com)
> >
> >I suppose most of the time will be taken to convert old.
> >Shouldn't be possible to convert only cur while either leave
> >old unconvert
> >or mark each entrey in old as unconverted/still in iso-8859-1
> >and convert
> >these entries when they are needed or by a very low priority job?
> >(of course the soft will need to handle the conversion flag
> >when viewing on old version
> >of an article, doing a diff, ...)
> >
> >Is this doable or still too complex?
>
> It's possible. Just need to change a bit the software :) Just need to add a
> flag UTF-8 as the soft add a flag gzip. And tell the soft to read as it is.

I am thinking about an even simpler solution. Have server-side script convert
articles and their histories to UTF-8. Have a postprocessor (written in C)
tell if a page is in UTF-8 and change appropriate meta tag if it is. It's
vastly improbable that a UTF-8 page will not be in UTF-8, it could be checked
on a database dump and I don't believe that any such page would be found.
When all pages are converted, site could be switched to UTF-8 and
postprocessor turned off.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia language

body:
Ian Mackinnon wrote:

> I strongly request that the Traditional Chinese version of Wikipedia be
> given it's own language space...

> A real good argument I can give for this is why does wikipedia have
> simple.wikipedia.org for "Simple English" instead of it being lumped into
> en.wikipedia.org?

I don't feel this is a strong argument for splitting Traditional and
Simplified Chinese. The Simple English Wikipedia has only attracted
1500 articles so far. I expect it may have been far more successful
had it been better merged with the English Wikipedia at the beginning.

Angela.


from_name: Volkan HATEM

subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Allmessages

body:
Before the upgrade we were using something like
mediaWiki/All_system_messages.

After the upgrade there is a template called "AllMessages" that I don't
know why it was created.

There was Special:Allmessages page we were using for localization
purposes.

It disappeared on tr.wikipedia. What's the new link? IF there is any.

-volkan

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from_name: Constans, Camille (C.C.)

body:
I had another idea. As old doesnt change much, why not duplicate the old table and converting the duplicated table ? After we only have to check the changes between the two tables (we could add a flag converted for the current table, so checking is faster).

I think, doing like this we just have to put en down a few hours. Time to convert all tables except old.

And if some old pages were deleted during the conversion. We could check this in background.

Shaihulud


from_name: Fennec Foxen

body:
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:55:04 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Mayer
<maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Fennec Foxen <fennec at gmail.com> wrote:
> > For one, can we have an official-type *decree* from someone that Wik
> > is *hard-banned* for life, under the same terms as Michael, 142, etc?
> No he is not hard banned for life. He will, however, probably get a month ban
> the moment he comes back due to the fact that he broke the terms of his
> week-long ban a few times. That is in the enforcement section of our (the AC's)
> ruling on the issue.

... Things like this, Phil, Sandifer, is why I would prefer any
long-term ban be couched in unambiguous, official-sounding language.
;)

although perhaps with some qualifiers ("until further notice" etc)
which would allow those who made the ban to remove it if circumstances
warranted it.


subject: [WikiEN-l] IP records of page views?

body:
Mark Richards wrote:

> Angela - can you explain / point to where this is
> explained? Having this information more readily
> available seems a lot more sinister.
> Mark

The only information on it that I am aware of is what is written in
the draft privacy policy. See
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_privacy_policy#Private_logging.

This example of what is logged shows a user's IP, user-agent, the page
they viewed and the time they did it:

 12.345.67.890 - - [16/Jun/2004:07:10:19 +0000]
 "GET /wiki/draft_privacy_policy HTTP/1.1" 200 18084
 "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump"
 "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/85.7
(KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/85.5"

These are available to the people listed on
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developer with at least shell access.

The logs are not kept permanently (about two weeks according to the
draft policy).

Angela.

>
> --- Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Daniel Mayer wrote:
> > > >Speaking of which, it would be nice for stewards
> > to have the ability to check
> > > >those logs in these cases. Our developers seem to
> > be overworked as it is.
> > > >-- mav
> >
> > If a new system is implemented whereby IPs are
> > stored in the database
> > and not just in the log files, I would have no
> > objection to stewards
> > having access to these. However, until then, I do
> > not support stewards
> > being given access to the same logs that the
> > developers currently have
> > to check for IPs. Firstly, it would be largely a
> > waste of time as they
> > are too large to search through efficiently, and
> > secondly, they
> > include details of not only page saves, but also
> > page views. This
> > would be too much of a privacy violation if stewards
> > had that sort of
> > information.
> >
> > Angela.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikitech-l] Why use so many (small) messages)

body:
Originally this thread was on two mailing lists.  I copied my first
response to the Wikitech list because of Tim's involvement in the
subject.  There is no point to my continuing to cross-post to both the
Wiktionary and Wikitech lists.

Ec

Gerard.Meijssen wrote:

>Ray,
>There are issues. And as I have mentioned this is a system being developped. Nothing is carved into stone yet. You state that it is my "pet project" and indeed I among others try to nurture it to become better. As to your criticism,  I do acknowledge that several issues have to be resolved. This is consistent with something that is under construction.
>
>It would however be foolish not to respond to questions of why things need _many_ messages. That is exactly why we have mailinglists; to inform about what is what and why and how things are evolving. Again, en:wiktionary is not the only one. The issues that can be resolved should be resolved. But it is not a zero sum situation; the benefits must be weighed against drawbacks. At this moment people can cooperate and look at what this way of working produces. I am aware of issues and I am working towords resolutions.
>
>Only stating that this system is not finished/ready is not helpfull as it is not a finished product yet.
>


from_name: Arne Klempert

body:
On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:03 AM
Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:

> Delirium wrote:
>> I'd personally prefer if important things, like votes for
>> foundations, not take place at "in-person" meetings, because not all
>> of us have sufficient funds to attend such meetings.  Internet
>> elections are much more inclusive.

German law requires "in-person" meetings for the setup of a "Verein".

> I don't believe on-line voting is legal in all countries, so it may
> not be possible for all of the Wikimedia chapters to do this. I do
> think that postal voting should usually be made available though, and
> the recently formed  German Wikimedia Association certainly allows for
> this. ? 8.2 of the Verein's bylaws
> (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vereinssatzung) state that
> when elections are taking place, the possibility of voting remotely
> must be given to the members (by post or fax as far as I could tell).

On-line voting is possible in theory but up to now it's extremely
difficult to do this legally effective. Afaik there is only *one* german
"Verein" who did this - and there are a great many of such associations
in Germany. I'm sure this becomes more easier in the future but until
then we have to do absentee votes (as stated in the bylaws this is
necessary for board elections and changing the bylaws) by snail mail, at
least for those members who are not able or willing to come to the
annual meetings.

> Congratulations again to everyone elected, and to all those who worked
> so hard in getting this set up.

Thank you, Angela. It was a great pleasure to have you with us in
Berlin.

-akl


from_name: KNOTT, T

body:
>No he is not hard banned for life. He will, however, probably get a
month >ban
>the moment he comes back due to the fact that he broke the terms of his
>week-long ban a few times. That is in the enforcement section of our
(the >AC's)
>ruling on the issue.

Violating a week long ban is one thing. Running a script to vandalize
wikipedia repeatedly until we cave in for to his demands is something
else. Assuming Jimbo posts the full header to confirm it wasn't faked,
then I don't see we even need an AC ruling. This is simple vandalism. We
block vandals all the time.

Theresa


body:
LS,
Tim Starling wondered why we want to use so many messages in wiktionary. The reason is that the same article can be copied to another wiktionary (that contains the native content for the same messages). This will result in a correct article for the word. As an example the word [[Nederlands]], [[Engels]],  [[English]] can be found in the Japanese wiktionary.

Another example is when a translation has been added to a participating wiktionary, this translation can be added to all other participating wiktonaries. Yes, a bot needs to be written to do that, but that is the intention. Example; I have added _loads_ of new translations for the word [[English]] and [[Dutch]] on the en:wiktionary. (Originating from Timwi's website and then nl:wiktionary)

Thanks,
  GerardM
T


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Why use so many (small) messages)


from_name: Philippe Elie

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Erik as backup trustee

body:
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 at 21:52 +0000, sannse wrote:

> (Appologies if this comes through twice - I have concerns about my e-mail
> service)
>
> I feel very strongly that we should not change the rules after the election.
> We voted for two board members and we have two.  If it's decided that we
> need another then we should vote again.  There is every possibility that the
> results will change with the changed situation - for example, it's been
> pointed out that many people felt that there should be a non-en. board
> member.  As Anthere is a member already this may influence votes.   I for
> one think that a U.S. user representative would be a balance in the current
> board.

re-doing a vote just mean: "We don't like results so we redo a vote",
I don't understand at all the purpose of this thread. Can someone clarify
where is really the problem ?

regards,
Philippe Elie


from_name: Andreas Kasenides

subject: [Wikitech-l] Setting up for the Greek language

body:
 Now that the months have been translated and put in place I realized
that for Greek things are not really so simple!! I am sure other languages
have the same problems (Spanish?). The problem is that most words
in Greek take a different ending depending on the person that is being
referred
to or talking. So you cannot simply say
June (Io?nios)
15 June (15 Ioun?ou)
I give here the correct greek form in english characters. What it amounts to
is that you cannot then do for example do
{{CURRENTMONTHDAY}}_{{CURRENTMONTH}}
since it will sound and look strange. Unless of course extensive
parameters are
set up. This makes setting a calendar much more difficult than in the
English language.
Can somebody offer a suggestion? I am interested in finding what others
have done
in similar situations.
Thankx
Andreas

Andreas Kasenides wrote:

> Hi all.
> I have been helping for a while to translate the interface of the Greek
> wikipedia with much success due to the namespace feuture of the wiki
> software.
> There are though some things that cannot be translated via this interface
> (or so I believe) like month names?
> Can somebody point me to the correct procedures for changing such items
> that are not included in the namespace?
> Thanx
> --
>
> Andreas Kasenides
> e-mail: Andreas.Kasenides_at_cs.ucy.ac.cy
> <mailto:Andreas.Kasenides%20at%20cs.ucy.ac.cy>
> (replace the _at_ above with @)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--

Andreas Kasenides
e-mail: Andreas.Kasenides_at_cs.ucy.ac.cy
<mailto:Andreas.Kasenides%20at%20cs.ucy.ac.cy>
(replace the _at_ above with @)

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body:
On Wednesday 16 June 2004 05:05, you wrote:
> On Tuesday 15 June 2004 08:09, Constans, Camille (C.C.) wrote:
> > >> We'd love to, but we need to either a) take it offline for a
> > >
> > >few days or
> > >
> > >> b) invent a way to convert the database without data loss or damage
> > >> while keeping it online.
> > >>
> > >> -- brion vibber (brino @ pobox.com)
> > >
> > >I suppose most of the time will be taken to convert old.
> > >Shouldn't be possible to convert only cur while either leave
> > >old unconvert
> > >or mark each entrey in old as unconverted/still in iso-8859-1
> > >and convert
> > >these entries when they are needed or by a very low priority job?
> > >(of course the soft will need to handle the conversion flag
> > >when viewing on old version
> > >of an article, doing a diff, ...)
> > >
> > >Is this doable or still too complex?
> >
> > It's possible. Just need to change a bit the software :) Just need to add
> > a flag UTF-8 as the soft add a flag gzip. And tell the soft to read as it
> > is.
>
> I am thinking about an even simpler solution. Have server-side script
> convert articles and their histories to UTF-8. Have a postprocessor
> (written in C) tell if a page is in UTF-8 and change appropriate meta tag
> if it is. It's vastly improbable that a UTF-8 page will not be in UTF-8, it
> could be checked on a database dump and I don't believe that any such page
> would be found. When all pages are converted, site could be switched to
> UTF-8 and
> postprocessor turned off.

This could even be doen without a postprocessor, there is PHP
mb_detect_encoding function which does exactly that.


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
--- "KNOTT, T" <tknott at qcl.org.uk> wrote:
> Violating a week long ban is one thing. Running a script to vandalize
> wikipedia repeatedly until we cave in for to his demands is something
> else. Assuming Jimbo posts the full header to confirm it wasn't faked,
> then I don't see we even need an AC ruling. This is simple vandalism. We
> block vandals all the time.

Admins have always had the ability to deal with simple vandalism. So WHOEVER
the vandalbot is run by can be blocked by ANYONE right now. If that is Wik,
then he has banned himself permanently - no need for the AC to issue the ban.
The the AC *may* have to decide if this person is in fact Wik - but that is
all.

-- Daniel

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New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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subject:
Full and Simplified Forms for Chinese Characters [Re:
	[Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia language]

body:
--- Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to chime in, to agree to keep ZH together.
>
> This is a topic that comes up often, and the consensus is that keeping
> the single, mixed simplified and traditional Chinese Wikipedia.  It is
> the right way to go, for now, since it is so small and the critical
> mass is needed for its growth.  Splitting it too early will splinter
> the efforts and in fact cause more confusion, especially when it is
> trying to attract newbies.
>
> With the unavailability of ZH in the PRC right now, it is even more
> important to keep it intact the way it is, and not make any big moves
> until the community is fully involved.
>
> Imperfect solutions for an imperfect world.

You could have category tags for each script. That way all simplified and
traditional articles would be tagged as such, making it easier to one day split
the two if it is deemed necessary. In the meantime there could be an advanced
search function that could search within just one script or the other (or
within any category for that matter). Eventually there could even be a
per-category recent changes ('Related changes' from category pages does not
seem to work yet - it really should). User setable language preferences for the
interface would also be nice.

So there would at least be some type of differentiation (I would like to see
something like that happen for Wikibooks, which is one wiki but with many
languages). This may work so well that you find it is perfectly fine to stay
together (it has a nice symbolic feeling to it too).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

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from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Nikola Smolenski wrote:
> Quick, dirty, and it seems to work. I know that buffering is slow, but this
> would only be a temporary solution. When hairs on your head settle down,
> let's talk about it  :)

That won't work, as you have to be able to link from one page to
another. Title management, pulling things from the database, and case
folding are all dependent on the character set, long before we output
anything.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Creative Chemistry

subject: [Wikitech-l] The template problem

body:
I know There has been a small problem with performance on large wikis
and templates that are used in hundreds of articles, or articles that
use many templates.

Am I correct in suspecting that (for wikipedia) this will be a
non-issue as soon as the next version of squid is stable? I say this
because of that feature squid will have to cache only certain parts of
the page and keep others dynamic, almost like a template system. Could
this feature be exploited to massively accelerate the rendering of
pages that use templates?

I know that the problem of updating these templates still exists, but
something is something, no?

Lightning


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi all,

Le Wednesday 16 June 2004 01:32, Elisabeth Bauer a ?crit :
> Hello all,
>
> I'm sure the news is already around, but here is something like a
> official announcement:
>
> On sunday 13th of June German wikipedians founded a local wikimedia
> association in Berlin: the ''Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur
> F?rderung Freien Wissens'' (''Wikimedia Germany - society for the
> promotion of free knowledge''). We had 34 founding members - among them
> friends of wikipedia and of course a lot of people of the german wikipedia.
>
> A board of trustees with ten members was elected, among them Kurt
> Jansson as chairman. The whole board consists of:
>      * Kurt Jansson (1. chairman)
>      * Arne Klempert - akl (2. chairman)
>      * Elisabeth Bauer - elian (secretary)
>      * Henriette Fiebig (treasurer)
>      * Daniel Baur (assessor)
>      * Andr? Darmochwal (assessor)
>      * Joachim Kerschbaumer (assessor)
>      * Achim Raschka (assessor)
>      * Mathias Schindler (assessor)
>      * Jakob Vo? (assessor)

Congratulations for the creation of the first local chapter, to the new board
members, and to all members and contributors!

I hope that we can set up a local chapter in France soon, and that we can
eventually collaborate and that our experience could benefit each other
organisation.

I also regret that I could not come to Berlin for the meeting.

> greetings,
> elian, akl, sansculotte

greetings,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


body:
Hi all,

I really don't understand all this. Since when the rules get changed AFTER the
election?

I have always thought that 5 members are not enough, especially because only 2
members are elected. But this has to be decided BEFORE the vote takes place.

Changing the rules after the election is a very bad start for the foundation,
and doing so BECAUSE of the results is even worse.
It damages the credibility of the voting procedure, and therefore of the
representativity of the board.

I am sure there are other ways to accomodate the participation of everybody in
the project.

Regards,
Yann Forget

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


body:
On Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:06 AM
Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anyway, I am real glad that the german association was finally
> founded. I would be happy to discuss a bit its organisation and the
> roles it intends to hold with anyone involved in it. I would be like
> to do so, both as an interesting reference to be used for next
> local-chapter-to-be, and of course, to see how the Wikimedia
> Foundation and the local chapter could be related in the best way.

I'm interested in this discussion, too. I hope my english is well enough
for this heavy stuff. As the first step we should perhaps translate the
bylaws.

> I regret I was not among you, it would have been nice to meet
> german wikipedians...

You've missed a fantastic weekend. But I'm sure it won't be the last
one, so don't be too sad.

-akl


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Since several people have expressed skepticism about doing this I withdraw
my support for this approach (substitute trustee). It would have
questionable legitimacy, and I don't want that.

I will take a wiki vacation for about two weeks and then I will decide how
and whether I will continue to participate in Wikimedia. I may make edits
here and there but I won't be watching the mailing lists so if there's
anything important please contact me at my other email address,
moeller at scireview.de

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: update record

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Jens Frank wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 09:19:20AM +0200, Gerard.Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>> LS, I have been trying for two days to change one record in
>>> nl:wiktionary. the article is [[Sjabloon:-noun-]]
>>
>>
>> When saving a template, all pages using the template are "touched" so
>> that they
>> will be updated the next time they are rendered. Having zillions of
>> pages using
>> that template, this takes a long time. Probably too long.
>
>
> Did whoever came up with that think about the performance implications? o.O

Of course I did. In MediaWiki 1.2 I deliberately avoided this kind of
cache purging, for performance reasons. But this behaviour was very
unpopular, and some automated method was often requested. So in 1.3 I
invalidated the cache of all pages linking to a given template page,
when the template page is updated. The purge operation required is no
worse than that for page creation or deletion.

There are a number of workarounds. Firstly, the cache invalidation only
occurs when pages in the Template (Sjabloon) namespace are updated. So
you could put the -noun- template in [[WikiWoordenboek:-noun]], and
include it with {{WikiWoordenboek:-noun}}.

The second alternative is to stop using templates for each and every
little link. Are they really necessary?

The third alternative is to get it right the first time, to avoid
changing it at all costs, and if you really need to change it, only do
so in off-peak times.

In any case, there isn't a zillion pages using that template, only 497.
Perhaps we need to do some database optimisation so that relatively
small operations like this become possible.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: 5 templates per page limit

body:
Guillaume wrote:
> Hi all,
> There a security limit that prevent to use more than 5 times the same
> template in the same page.
> Waiting to found a better solution, I'd like to set this limite to 100 for
> template less than 256 bytes.
> (256 * 100 = maximum 25 Kb)
> I can do it myself in source, but no objection ?
>
> Aoineko

You also need to implement article text caching, otherwise 100
inclusions of the same template will require 100 identical database
queries. Why is this on wikipedia-l not wikitech-l?

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikitech-l] [Fwd: Re: 5 templates per page limit]

body:
Forwarding this from wikipedia-l. I should add: why stop at 256*100
bytes? When I originally instituted it, the limit of 5 gave a maximum
text size of about 30 MB. Perhaps we should have a limit of 2 MB text
size, plus some kind of direct check for circular inclusions.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: 5 templates per page limit
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:52:22 +1000
From: Tim Starling <ts4294967296-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: wikipedia-l-T31ubCBy5U6GglJvpFV4uA at public.gmane.org
Newsgroups: gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.misc
References: <008d01c452b7$5b4e56d0$d100a8c0 at arcsy.co.jp>

Guillaume wrote:
> Hi all,
> There a security limit that prevent to use more than 5 times the same
> template in the same page.
> Waiting to found a better solution, I'd like to set this limite to 100 for
> template less than 256 bytes.
> (256 * 100 = maximum 25 Kb)
> I can do it myself in source, but no objection ?
>
> Aoineko

You also need to implement article text caching, otherwise 100
inclusions of the same template will require 100 identical database
queries. Why is this on wikipedia-l not wikitech-l?

-- Tim Starling


from_name: ruimu uestc

subject:
Full and Simplified Forms for Chinese Characters [Re: [Wikipedia-l]
	New Wikipedia language]

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Delirium" <delirium at hackish.org>

> Interlanguage links are already done with [[zh-tw:]] and [[zh-cn:]], so
> perhaps we could simply split zh.wikipedia.org into zh-cn.wikipedia.org
> and zh-tw.wikipedia.org, with zh.wikipedia.org being a disambiguating
> portal?  Of course, this is more up to Chinese-speakers than it is to
> myself; just a suggestion that would be consistent with our current
> usage.  Having separate interlanguage links going to one encyclopedia
> that is effectively written in a mixture of two writing systems that are
> often not mutually intelligible is more than a little bit odd.

!!!

A relatively small effort is asked to full-form characters users to get used
to simple forms, and the reverse. If you are a little bit used to it, the
very largest part of simplification is obvious and only few "not obvious"
simplified characters would need a check in a dictionnary. Those two
scripting habits are very far from "two mutually unintelligible languages".
In Mainland China, where I leave now, I do often see full form characters,
for instance in some good and relatively expensive restaurants or hotels. It
looks fancy... Most educated people do know enough of them to be quickly
confortable reading a book in full-forms. On the other hand, simple form
characters are often derivated from the common (and sometime very ancient)
usage in fast hand script and. I know that simple forms hurts the eyes of
some Taiwanese people, and I understand that (I'd be hurted in French
spelling be simplified). But I don't agree with "simple english" comparison.
One can easily write complex sentences using rare words in simple-form,
right ? The difference between zh-tw and zh-cn is much closer to the
difference between en-gb and en-us, and I didn't see any kind of "british
english" wikipedia on my screen.

I don't agree also with the idea of a "tw.wikipedia.org". Full forms are
used in many Chinatowns world wide and is not a specifically Taiwanese
language. In Paris for example there are some Chinese language newspapers
and most of them are in full forms, but the readers are mostly from
Guangdong or such other places in Southern China while only few are from
Taiwan.

What I agree with is that the present choice for chinese wikipedia is far
from perfect. I guess a kind of option that you can change in "your prefs"
would be better : you choose your prefered display and, if a page has the
two versions, you are sent on the one you prefer. I have no idea of the
feasability of such a thing.

Last word : I'm far from a defender of simplified forms, I often think full
forms carry more semantics and phonetics and often have more "qi" (energy)
and harmony, I'd prefer the writing-system reform to have been much softer,
if any.

(gbog)


from_name: Robert Graham Merkel

body:
On Slashdot today...

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/15/2250215

What this means is that, while development continues on the Ogg Theora
video format, any video encoded with the existing encoder will be
playable into the future.

I think we are now in a position to go ahead and start adding Theora
videos to Wikipedia, if anybody has suitable video to add!

Given this, also, http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_policy becomes
a much more relevant discussion.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Robert Merkel
                                     robert.merkel at benambra.org
                                        http://benambra.org

Littering is dumb.
-- Ronald Macdonald
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Hard ban for life -- or what?

body:
Let's not lose sight of the purpose of "banning". It's not to get
revenge, and it's not punishment for punishment's sake. It's only a
means to an end.

We want to make an accurate, comprehensive and open encyclopedia. We
require civility, so it's a nice congenial place to work. We enforce
Jimbo & Larry!s NPOV policy, so that we keep bias from creeping in under
the guise of "objective fact".

The only reason to pressure or suspend a contributor, is because they
sidestep, subvert or openly declare war on our values. If they show
willingness to mend their ways, all is (usually) forgiven.

My feelings toward Plautus, Lir, Wik, and Abe (172) are precisely the
same: if they will follow our guidelines their help is welcome; if not,
we're better off without them. Often after a self-imposed or "mandated"
period of time off a user thinks better of rocking the boat and can come
on board again.

Don't mistake this is hostility toward people. Think of it as dedication
to the mission. We sail the boundless seas together. :-)

Ed Poor
Curmudgeonly but softhearted Bureaucrat


from_name: Andrew Lih

body:
Just to chime in, to agree to keep ZH together.

This is a topic that comes up often, and the consensus is that keeping
the single, mixed simplified and traditional Chinese Wikipedia.  It is
the right way to go, for now, since it is so small and the critical
mass is needed for its growth.  Splitting it too early will splinter
the efforts and in fact cause more confusion, especially when it is
trying to attract newbies.

With the unavailability of ZH in the PRC right now, it is even more
important to keep it intact the way it is, and not make any big moves
until the community is fully involved.

Imperfect solutions for an imperfect world.

-Andrew

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:12:33 +0800, ruimu uestc <ruimu at uestc.edu.cn> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Delirium" <delirium at hackish.org>
>
> > Interlanguage links are already done with [[zh-tw:]] and [[zh-cn:]], so
> > perhaps we could simply split zh.wikipedia.org into zh-cn.wikipedia.org
> > and zh-tw.wikipedia.org, with zh.wikipedia.org being a disambiguating
> > portal?  Of course, this is more up to Chinese-speakers than it is to
> > myself; just a suggestion that would be consistent with our current
> > usage.  Having separate interlanguage links going to one encyclopedia
> > that is effectively written in a mixture of two writing systems that are
> > often not mutually intelligible is more than a little bit odd.
>
> !!!
>
> A relatively small effort is asked to full-form characters users to get used
> to simple forms, and the reverse. If you are a little bit used to it, the
> very largest part of simplification is obvious and only few "not obvious"
> simplified characters would need a check in a dictionnary. Those two
> scripting habits are very far from "two mutually unintelligible languages".
> In Mainland China, where I leave now, I do often see full form characters,
> for instance in some good and relatively expensive restaurants or hotels. It
> looks fancy... Most educated people do know enough of them to be quickly
> confortable reading a book in full-forms. On the other hand, simple form
> characters are often derivated from the common (and sometime very ancient)
> usage in fast hand script and. I know that simple forms hurts the eyes of
> some Taiwanese people, and I understand that (I'd be hurted in French
> spelling be simplified). But I don't agree with "simple english" comparison.
> One can easily write complex sentences using rare words in simple-form,
> right ? The difference between zh-tw and zh-cn is much closer to the
> difference between en-gb and en-us, and I didn't see any kind of "british
> english" wikipedia on my screen.
>
> I don't agree also with the idea of a "tw.wikipedia.org". Full forms are
> used in many Chinatowns world wide and is not a specifically Taiwanese
> language. In Paris for example there are some Chinese language newspapers
> and most of them are in full forms, but the readers are mostly from
> Guangdong or such other places in Southern China while only few are from
> Taiwan.
>
> What I agree with is that the present choice for chinese wikipedia is far
> from perfect. I guess a kind of option that you can change in "your prefs"
> would be better : you choose your prefered display and, if a page has the
> two versions, you are sent on the one you prefer. I have no idea of the
> feasability of such a thing.
>
> Last word : I'm far from a defender of simplified forms, I often think full
> forms carry more semantics and phonetics and often have more "qi" (energy)
> and harmony, I'd prefer the writing-system reform to have been much softer,
> if any.
>
> (gbog)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia language

body:
Yes, and to emphasize Angela's (and others') points:

The relationship of Simple and English Wikipedias is not the same
relationship as
Simplified and Traditional Chinese.  It's just an unfortunate clash of
terminology as the former is about grammar usage and vocabulary, and
the latter is about visual appearance of logographic characters.

-Andrew

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:13:28 +0100, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ian Mackinnon wrote:
>
> > I strongly request that the Traditional Chinese version of Wikipedia be
> > given it's own language space...
>
> > A real good argument I can give for this is why does wikipedia have
> > simple.wikipedia.org for "Simple English" instead of it being lumped into
> > en.wikipedia.org?
>
> I don't feel this is a strong argument for splitting Traditional and
> Simplified Chinese. The Simple English Wikipedia has only attracted
> 1500 articles so far. I expect it may have been far more successful
> had it been better merged with the English Wikipedia at the beginning.
>
> Angela.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Ray,
There are issues. And as I have mentioned this is a system being developped. Nothing is carved into stone yet. You state that it is my "pet project" and indeed I among others try to nurture it to become better. As to your criticism,  I do acknowledge that several issues have to be resolved. This is consistent with something that is under construction.

It would however be foolish not to respond to questions of why things need _many_ messages. That is exactly why we have mailinglists; to inform about what is what and why and how things are evolving. Again, en:wiktionary is not the only one. The issues that can be resolved should be resolved. But it is not a zero sum situation; the benefits must be weighed against drawbacks. At this moment people can cooperate and look at what this way of working produces. I am aware of issues and I am working towords resolutions.

Only stating that this system is not finished/ready is not helpfull as it is not a finished product yet.

Gerard

-----Original Message-----
From: wikitech-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikitech-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org]On Behalf Of Ray Saintonge
Sent: woensdag 16 juni 2004 10:38
To: Wikimedia developers
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Why use so many (small) messages)

Gerard.Meijssen wrote:

> LS,
> Tim Starling wondered why we want to use so many messages in
> wiktionary. The reason is that the same article can be copied to
> another wiktionary (that contains the native content for the same
> messages). This will result in a correct article for the word. As an
> example the word [[Nederlands]], [[Engels]],  [[English]] can be found
> in the Japanese wiktionary.
>
> Another example is when a translation has been added to a
> participating wiktionary, this translation can be added to all other
> participating wiktonaries. Yes, a bot needs to be written to do that,
> but that is the intention. Example; I have added _loads_ of new
> translations for the word [[English]] and [[Dutch]] on the
> en:wiktionary. (Originating from Timwi's website and then nl:wiktionary)
>
This system of messages is Gerard's pet project with which he has
carried on despite some serious questioning at Wiktionary talk:MediaWiki
custom messages
<http://en.wiktionary.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wiktionary_talk:MediaWiki_custom_messages&redirect=no>

We don't need all those messages.  The potential for Gerard's scheme
interfering with the efforts of others is too high.  A bot would only
make things worse.

Ec

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wiktionary-l] RE: [Wikitech-l] Why use so many (small) messages)


from_name: Nikola Smolenski

body:
On Wednesday 16 June 2004 10:16, Nikola Smolenski wrote:
> > I am thinking about an even simpler solution. Have server-side script
> > convert articles and their histories to UTF-8. Have a postprocessor
> > (written in C) tell if a page is in UTF-8 and change appropriate meta tag
> > if it is. It's vastly improbable that a UTF-8 page will not be in UTF-8,
> > it could be checked on a database dump and I don't believe that any such
> > page would be found. When all pages are converted, site could be switched
> > to UTF-8 and
> > postprocessor turned off.
>
> This could even be doen without a postprocessor, there is PHP
> mb_detect_encoding function which does exactly that.

Quick, dirty, and it seems to work. I know that buffering is slow, but this
would only be a temporary solution. When hairs on your head settle down,
let's talk about it  :)

Index: OutputPage.php
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/OutputPage.php,v
retrieving revision 1.143
diff -u -3 -p -r1.143 OutputPage.php
--- OutputPage.php      20 May 2004 12:46:31 -0000      1.143
+++ OutputPage.php      16 Jun 2004 12:31:10 -0000
@@ -333,7 +333,13 @@ class OutputPage {
                        setcookie( $name, $val, $exp, "/" );
                }

+               ob_start();
                $sk->outputPage( $this );
+               $output=ob_get_contents();
+               ob_end_clean();
+               if(mb_detect_encoding($output,"UTF-8,ISO-8859-1")=="UTF-8")
+
$output=preg_replace("/charset=iso-8859-1/","charset=utf-8",$output,1);
+               echo $output;
                # flush();
        }


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikitech-l] SMILES again -- another possible renderer

body:
Jens Frank wrote:

>On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 10:51:41AM +0100, Neil Harris wrote:
>
>
>>Neil Harris wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On the other hand, _this_ Java-based project:
>>>http://jmdraw.sourceforge.net/ _does_ appear to be what we want.
>>>Quote: "The JMDraw/SMILESViewer project was started by Christoph
>>>Steinbeck <http://www.ice.mpg.de/%7Estein> from the ChemoInformatics
>>>group <http://www.ice.mpg.de/departments/ChemInf/> at the
>>>Max-Planck-Institute of Chemical Ecology <http://www.ice.mpg.de> in
>>>Jena. It is an Open Source project, the sources are published under
>>>GNU Lesser General Public License, LGPL
>>><http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html>. " Next question -- can it
>>>be run on an entirely open-source infrastructure?
>>>
>>>-- Neil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>You can test it online at
>>http://jmdraw.sourceforge.net/SMILESViewerDemo.html Also, the parser for
>>the open source project is the SSMILES subset language only.
>>
>>A bit more Googling has now turned up:
>>
>>  http://structure.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
>>
>>(Java again) which is based on
>>
>>  http://octet.sourceforge.net/
>>
>>This does seem to understand more than just the SSMILES subset of
>>SMILES, if my reading of the screenshot examples is right.
>>
>>
>
>Personaly, I'd like to avoid using client side Java.
>>From my impression, Octet only provides an ASCII output renderer?
>jmdraw uses the java.awt Canvas class to draw, which looks like a
>client only component to me, but I'm not that familiar with Java.
>
>Regards,
>
>	JeLuF
>
>
>
I agree with you completely about not using client-side Java: client
plugins of any sort are a bad idea, in my opinion.  As Fennec pointed
out, we should be able to render the rasters server-side, and then treat
it exactly like TeX: we should be able to re-use nearly all the
TeX-integration infrastructure, just replacing the TeX -> .png black box
with a SMILES -> .png black box.

-- Neil


subject: [Wikitech-l] SMILES again

body:
Jim Higson wrote:

>Is there a policy on client-side code (such as applets) on the wiki when doing
>something that can't be done on the server.
>
>For example, visit any of the links from here
>http://jmol.sourceforge.net/preview/
>
>I find this kind of thing simply stunning, and the kind of thing an electronic
>encyclopedia should use to take advantage of over paper ones.
>
>IMO a 3D, rotatable view of a molecule gives far greater and easier
>understanding of the structure, especially to a newcomer.
>
>
>
I think plug-ins are bad; they limit software choices, which should be
left to the client. However, in addition to generating a nice simple 2D
picture, the SMILES-processor mentioned above should be able to output
any of a number of different chemical-markup representations, which
could then be made available via a link, so that your favourite
chemical-computing software can be launched (in the same way that you
might launch a viewer for any other external content).  Then you can do
_far_ more than just spin it: you can calculate energies, visualise
orbitals....

Are there any chemists here with an opinion on this?

-- Neil


from_name: tic at tictric.net

body:
Though not being a developer I might make a suggestion on this topic.

For I'm helping out with the Open Directiory Project I know they have been
struggling with converting their databases to utf8 quite some time now.
And strange characters keep appearing here and there.

Maybe the devs of mediawiki could get some cool hints from them guys on
what unforeseen problems might arise when converting to utf8.

Cheers
Manfred

> On Wednesday 16 June 2004 10:16, Nikola Smolenski wrote:
>> > I am thinking about an even simpler solution. Have server-side script
>> > convert articles and their histories to UTF-8. Have a postprocessor
>> > (written in C) tell if a page is in UTF-8 and change appropriate meta
>> tag
>> > if it is. It's vastly improbable that a UTF-8 page will not be in
>> UTF-8,
>> > it could be checked on a database dump and I don't believe that any
>> such
>> > page would be found. When all pages are converted, site could be
>> switched
>> > to UTF-8 and
>> > postprocessor turned off.
>>
>> This could even be doen without a postprocessor, there is PHP
>> mb_detect_encoding function which does exactly that.
>
> Quick, dirty, and it seems to work. I know that buffering is slow, but
> this
> would only be a temporary solution. When hairs on your head settle down,
> let's talk about it  :)


from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wik's Vandal Bot?

body:
On Wednesday, June 16th, 2004, at 09:50 Delirium wrote:

> Fred Bauder wrote:
>
> > I am trying to get an arbitration ruling on this as part of Wik2.
> > Better evidence that the vandal bot is actually Wik would be helpful.
>
> I'm not sure this is really something the arbitration committee
> needs to deal with.

I agree.

> If Wik ran a vandal bot, I assume there's a consensus to ban him.

Well, it's clear and established policy (for once), so, yes.

> So it seems to be simply a matter of facts (was the vandal bot Wik
> or not?), and the arbitration committee has no particular knowledge
> that the general community doesn't have when it comes to deciding
> that issue.

The evidence available, though circumstantial, is rather significant.

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester
Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | james.forrester at orange.net
      csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk || [[en:User:Jdforrester]] on Wikipedia
IM  : ICQ:15108888 | MSN:jamesdforrester at hotmail.com | YM:Jdforrester


from_name: Reini Urban

subject: [Wikitech-l] MonoBook theme added to PhpWiki

body:
Hi,
I took your monobook theme and added it as PhpWiki theme.
See http://phpwiki.sf.net/demo/monobook
People seem to like it a lot. Great theme.

There are still pending issues with IE and Safari.
--
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.sf.net/


from_name: Jim Higson

subject: [Wikitech-l] SMILES again

body:
> I think plug-ins are bad; they limit software choices, which should be
> left to the client.

In general I agree, but I think if sensibly aproached they can enhance the
wiki. For example those without a JRE installed could be sent a prerendered
png, and those with could be sent the applet.

IMO plugins aimed at a specific purpose are bad - ie the user having to
install software *just* to view molecules, but well supported, general
purpose plugins like java and flash are accpetable provided those who don't
have them aren't given 'broken' pages.

> However, in addition to generating a nice simple 2D
> picture, the SMILES-processor mentioned above should be able to output
> any of a number of different chemical-markup representations, which
> could then be made available via a link, so that your favourite
> chemical-computing software can be launched (in the same way that you
> might launch a viewer for any other external content).  Then you can do
> _far_ more than just spin it: you can calculate energies, visualise
> orbitals....
>
> Are there any chemists here with an opinion on this?
>
> -- Neil
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: sannse

body:
I think the scepticism, certainly from my point of view, is not in the idea
of having a substitute member but in the idea of using the results of one
vote to decide on a new issue.  I think it is possible that if we had been
voting for two members plus a substitute the voting pattern may have been
different.  I don't know that it is so of course, and perhaps the closeness
of the final result indicates that it wouldn't have been - but my belief in
the principle is strong.  I do know that my own vote was influenced in part
by the number of people we were voting for.

A straightforward ratification vote would be too limited in my view (from my
understanding of how this might work).  A "yes/no" vote would not allow for
other possibilities, such as a holding a new vote specifically for this
position with more than one candidate.  Perhaps a wider vote on the issues
might be helpful (although I'm aware of the problem of too many votes).

-- sannse

(copied privately to Erik)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
To: <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re: Erik as backup trustee

> Since several people have expressed skepticism about doing this I withdraw
> my support for this approach (substitute trustee). It would have
> questionable legitimacy, and I don't want that.
>
> I will take a wiki vacation for about two weeks and then I will decide how
> and whether I will continue to participate in Wikimedia. I may make edits
> here and there but I won't be watching the mailing lists so if there's
> anything important please contact me at my other email address,
> moeller at scireview.de
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


from_name: Martin Harper

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wik's Vandalism

body:
> I don't see we even need an AC ruling. This is simple vandalism.
> We block vandals all the time.

I think this is precisely correct. Vandalism of Wikipedia is unauthorised and forbidden;
blocks and reverts can be used freely; ISPs can be complained to, etc. An AC ban
would serve no additional purpose, beyond making us feel good about our collective
selves. In the unlikely event that Wik attempts to return and contribute in a bona fide
manner, the AC can issue a year's ban, but otherwise there are other cases we should
be looking at.

It would be nice if IPs of logged in edits were made public, as with logged out, as then
individuals could take the initiative in contacting ISPs about abuse.

I've unprotected Wik's user and user talk pages, so we can have/link this discussion on
Wikipedia proper, which will be good for keeping people informed. As and when the
problem stops, they can be reverted and reprotected.

-Martin


from_name: Finlay McWalter

subject: [WikiEN-l] on complaining to ISPs

body:
Martin Harper wrote:

> I think this is precisely correct. Vandalism of Wikipedia is unauthorised and forbidden;
> blocks and reverts can be used freely; ISPs can be complained to, etc.

(note I'm not being sarcastic here)

Have, in the past, complaints to ISPs (about stuff like this, not death
threats, copyvios, or kiddieporn) been effective?

I figure what the vandalbot is doing is perfectly legal, isn't spam, and
probably doesn't rise to the level of DOS (particularly the most recent
incarnation, which purely adds stuff).  I suspect many ISPs would
question whether they have the right to terminate a user in such
circumstances.

It's taking a lot off effort just hold hold off one (badly written)
vandalbot.

I can see the circumstance arise where we might be forced to block a
whole ISP, with a message saying something like

      Due to abuse from a user of your ISP, we've blocked everyone
      who uses it from editing wikipedia.  We've asked your ISP to
      block the abusive user, but they've failed to do so.  We're
      sorry that we have to inconvenience legitimate contributors
      such as yourself, but we feel we have no choice.  You could
      help us by lobbying uncaring.admin at biglazyisp.net, or you
      could switch to another provider.  Here's a list of ISPs
      that we currently block:

               biglazyisp.net
               biglazyisp.co.uk
               wejustwantthemoney.de

Yes, this is undoubtedly cutting off our nose, but we may have no other
choice.

FIn

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
W.Finlay McWalter   [[User:Finlay McWalter]]   http://www.mcwalter.org
"With the thoughts you'd be thinkin', You could be another Lincoln..."


from_name: Mark Richards

subject: [WikiEN-l] Why log page views?

body:
Why do we keep logs of page views by IP address at
all?
Thanks
Mark

--- Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Richards wrote:
>
> > Angela - can you explain / point to where this is
> > explained? Having this information more readily
> > available seems a lot more sinister.
> > Mark
>
> The only information on it that I am aware of is
> what is written in
> the draft privacy policy. See
>
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_privacy_policy#Private_logging.
>
> This example of what is logged shows a user's IP,
> user-agent, the page
> they viewed and the time they did it:
>
>  12.345.67.890 - - [16/Jun/2004:07:10:19 +0000]
>  "GET /wiki/draft_privacy_policy HTTP/1.1" 200 18084
>
>
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump"
>  "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us)
> AppleWebKit/85.7
> (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/85.5"
>
> These are available to the people listed on
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developer with at
> least shell access.
>
> The logs are not kept permanently (about two weeks
> according to the
> draft policy).
>
> Angela.
>
> >
> > --- Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Daniel Mayer wrote:
> > > > >Speaking of which, it would be nice for
> stewards
> > > to have the ability to check
> > > > >those logs in these cases. Our developers
> seem to
> > > be overworked as it is.
> > > > >-- mav
> > >
> > > If a new system is implemented whereby IPs are
> > > stored in the database
> > > and not just in the log files, I would have no
> > > objection to stewards
> > > having access to these. However, until then, I
> do
> > > not support stewards
> > > being given access to the same logs that the
> > > developers currently have
> > > to check for IPs. Firstly, it would be largely a
> > > waste of time as they
> > > are too large to search through efficiently, and
> > > secondly, they
> > > include details of not only page saves, but also
> > > page views. This
> > > would be too much of a privacy violation if
> stewards
> > > had that sort of
> > > information.
> > >
> > > Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wik's Vandal Bot?

body:
I think it would be hard to imagine a legitimate
reason to run a vandalbot - there doesn't seem to be
much room to argue that a user who does this should
not be banned.
Mark R.

--- "James D. Forrester" <james at jdforrester.org>
wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 16th, 2004, at 09:50 Delirium
> wrote:
>
> > Fred Bauder wrote:
> >
> > > I am trying to get an arbitration ruling on this
> as part of Wik2.
> > > Better evidence that the vandal bot is actually
> Wik would be helpful.
> >
> > I'm not sure this is really something the
> arbitration committee
> > needs to deal with.
>
> I agree.
>
> > If Wik ran a vandal bot, I assume there's a
> consensus to ban him.
>
> Well, it's clear and established policy (for once),
> so, yes.
>
> > So it seems to be simply a matter of facts (was
> the vandal bot Wik
> > or not?), and the arbitration committee has no
> particular knowledge
> > that the general community doesn't have when it
> comes to deciding
> > that issue.
>
> The evidence available, though circumstantial, is
> rather significant.
>
> Yours,
> --
> James D. Forrester
> Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org |
> james.forrester at orange.net
>       csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk ||
> [[en:User:Jdforrester]] on Wikipedia
> IM  : ICQ:15108888 | MSN:jamesdforrester at hotmail.com
> | YM:Jdforrester
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Purpose

body:
I tend to agree in principle, but in practice the
devil is in the detail - there is plenty of room for
debate over what in fact furthers making an accurate,
comprehensive and open encyclopedia. Take, for
example, the fork to Internet Encyclopedia. We can
disagree over how the job should be done, to the
extent of fracturing the GFDL, without doubting that
we are all trying to do the same thing.
Mark

--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> Let's not lose sight of the purpose of "banning".
> It's not to get
> revenge, and it's not punishment for punishment's
> sake. It's only a
> means to an end.
>
> We want to make an accurate, comprehensive and open
> encyclopedia. We
> require civility, so it's a nice congenial place to
> work. We enforce
> Jimbo & Larry!s NPOV policy, so that we keep bias
> from creeping in under
> the guise of "objective fact".
>
> The only reason to pressure or suspend a
> contributor, is because they
> sidestep, subvert or openly declare war on our
> values. If they show
> willingness to mend their ways, all is (usually)
> forgiven.
>
> My feelings toward Plautus, Lir, Wik, and Abe (172)
> are precisely the
> same: if they will follow our guidelines their help
> is welcome; if not,
> we're better off without them. Often after a
> self-imposed or "mandated"
> period of time off a user thinks better of rocking
> the boat and can come
> on board again.
>
> Don't mistake this is hostility toward people. Think
> of it as dedication
> to the mission. We sail the boundless seas together.
> :-)
>
> Ed Poor
> Curmudgeonly but softhearted Bureaucrat
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject:
Unauthorised? You can edit this page! Re: [WikiEN-l] on complaining
	to ISPs

body:
I think for this to have very much credability, you
would have to remove the 'You Can Edit This Page'
notice.
Mark

> (IANAL) It isn't legal, because it's unauthorised
> use of a computer system, which is
> typically against anti-hacking legislation in most
> countries, including the USA. Anti-
> hacking legislation has been successfully used
> against people who have "hacked" by
> guessing URLs, so defacing a wiki should be cut and
> dry. It also falls into the category
> of a DOS, I reckon, though of course that's
> subjective.
>
> No doubt JamesDay or Alex756 wll be able to explain
> why I'm wrong on the legal issue.
>
> -Martin
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Why log page views?

body:
I can understand page EDITS, but why VIEWs?
Mark

--- Fennec Foxen <fennec at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Mark
> Richards
> <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Why do we keep logs of page views by IP address at
> all?
>
> Vandals? Vandal-bots? Sockpuppet detection? General
> protection against
> undesirable activity? To generate pretty webalyzer
> statistics?
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Why log page views?

body:
I can understand page EDITS, but why VIEWs?
Mark

--- Fennec Foxen <fennec at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Mark
> Richards
> <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Why do we keep logs of page views by IP address at
> all?
>
> Vandals? Vandal-bots? Sockpuppet detection? General
> protection against
> undesirable activity? To generate pretty webalyzer
> statistics?
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [Wikitech-l] the benefit of messages

body:
Ray,
You say that all the arguments have been put forward. They cannot be as this system is not finished; it needs refinements. It is not ready. The time for arguments is not there yet.

You talk about consensus; but I am not putting the system forward asking for consensus as it is not finished. It works after a fashion. It is not finished and I do not ask for anything. The only thing I ask for is to leave some articles as a "proof of the pudding"; to show current thinking.

One of the refinements needed, can be found in better code for headers. It has been said that the code will be revisited. My hope is that the TOC and the edit boxes will work better.

You are factually wrong where you say that a word for one language is shorter than a message: Nederlands <-> {{nl}}. The one thing is you know it as Dutch :) . I do not need to know what it is in Japanese; {{nl}} suffices. I have recently added _many_ translations to [[French]], [[English]] in the en:wiktionary. I used the messages and they are as good in English as they are in the Dutch wiktionary. Therefore there are immediate benefits. I added more than twenty new translations in 2 minutes.

As to the En:wiktionary, there are translations that are hopelessly wrong and nothing is done about it.

When I read articles like [[Korean]] in en:wiktionary I find they are unusable. Many of the Romanian translations of many words have numbers in them . I hope that this is not because of a consensus.

You may have noticed that the discussion stopped on the page that you refer to. This is not because I do not cherish the good points that were made and it is not because I do not welcome constructive criticism.

At present I am fleshing out the words, the format, the translations. I am adding _loads_ of translations thanks to Timwi. When ?we? find that the system does not work and will not work, there are bots that can change messages to the locally required texts so what I do is not in vein.

I also have done mainly nouns, no idioms, no sayings, so there is still a lot to be done. However, the words for languages are central to being able to translate. That is the function I am focussing on.

NB I have no idea where the "we" will be. But I hope and am certain it will be a bigger discussion than just nl:WikiWoordenboek.

Thanks,
  Gerard
ds have numbers in them . I hope that this is not because of a consensus.

You may have noticed that the discussion stopped on the page that you refer to. This is not because I do not cherish the good points that were made and it is not because I do not welcome constructive criticism.

At present I am fleshing out the words, the format, the translations. I am adding _loads_ of translations thanks to Timwi. When ?we? find that the system does not work and will not work, th


subject: [Wiktionary-l] the benefit of messages


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] The template problem

body:
On Wed, 2004-06-16 at 11:40 -0400, Creative Chemistry wrote:
> I know There has been a small problem with performance on large wikis
> and templates that are used in hundreds of articles, or articles that
> use many templates.
>
> Am I correct in suspecting that (for wikipedia) this will be a
> non-issue as soon as the next version of squid is stable? I say this
> because of that feature squid will have to cache only certain parts of
> the page and keep others dynamic, almost like a template system. Could
> this feature be exploited to massively accelerate the rendering of
> pages that use templates?

Translation of template inclusions to esi tags is not yet implemented,
and there might be some unknowns on the way. Every dynamic part
decreases performance of the squid in any case (i benchmarked up to ten
parts up to now), a page consisting of > 20 one-word templates certainly
wouldn't perform too well. On the other hand, another squid 3 for esi
rendering would very likely bring more performance than the same machine
as another apache.
I wonder if active purging is really needed for words on wiktionaries-
would a few days lag really be a problem? If not, an inline template
thing that doesn't translate to esi tags and is updated the next time
somebody either forces a refresh or the squid maxage is reached might be
good enough. I'd expect something like this to perform better than pages
consisting of >10 templates, a benchmark should be a good idea.

Apart from that, i have the feeling that something more specialized/
structured might be needed for wiktionaries. Import of existing
databases and export in something like the dict format could make the
project more useful.

> I know that the problem of updating these templates still exists, but
> something is something, no?

This would actually get much easier because only one purge would be
necessary to update all instances of this template, the pages that
include them wouldn't need to be purged.

Many things are prepared for esi integration already, the remaining work
might not be all that much if all goes according to plan. It's on my
todo list for 1.4, however i'll do a bit less for a while- a small break
after all the 1.3 debugging is very welcome ;-)

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] SMILES again

body:
Jim Higson wrote:

>>I think plug-ins are bad; they limit software choices, which should be
>>left to the client.
>>
>>
>
>In general I agree, but I think if sensibly aproached they can enhance the
>wiki. For example those without a JRE installed could be sent a prerendered
>png, and those with could be sent the applet.
>
>IMO plugins aimed at a specific purpose are bad - ie the user having to
>install software *just* to view molecules, but well supported, general
>purpose plugins like java and flash are accpetable provided those who don't
>have them aren't given 'broken' pages.
>
>
I for one don't like plugins, but agree that they *can* be of
*additional* use. So, why not display the molecule as a PNG, then open a
new browser window with a 3D/whatever applet when the user clicks on it?
alt="Click here to see it in 3D (EvilJava required)." would give a hint.

Magnus