from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Foundation-l] Single login - decision 2004

body:
Well i just chased down my first ever vandal (221.219.60.170 on
en.wikibooks) and i think that which ever option is taken, its going
to make tracking down cross wikivandals far easier. also if we did
that, we could presumably have a cross-wiki recent changes page which
might help protect the smaller wikis by giving them the protection
from the RC patrol from the big wikiprojects. I personaly support
version 1 or maybe 3. Anyway, best of  luck to the developers.
Is it possible to create a list now of how many clashes there would be
with option 1? so that whomever(s) makes the decision are informed.

paz y amor,
rjs
[[User:the bellman]]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:54:28 +0000, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The question for the Board is: Given that we have at least two, and
> > possibly three, implementations where there are volunteers, which one
> > should we choose? To me, this seems to be a matter that could be decided
> > by the Board; others have said that a poll will be necessary first. Either
> > way is fine with me - what does the Board say?
>
> I don't feel this ought to be a board decision at the moment. I
> suggest a non-binding poll of the community take place first. This can
> be used to inform the developers and also to help to adjust the
> current proposals for single-login. I'd rather the developer committee
> came to a consensus about this issue, based on the results of the
> poll, since it is them who have to create the single login feature.
> There is little point in the board saying make it all magically work
> for an option that is disliked by the community or not likely to be
> coded.
>
> Angela.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Stuart

subject: [Wikitech-l] Forbidden access to special export

body:
Hi,

I'm getting HTTP/1.0 403 Forbidden when tring to
access the special export pages from my server
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export/word)

Is there a problem?

all the best

Stu


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: no or nb for Bokmal,
	or time to move to ISO 639-3?

body:
It can be summed up this way:

Most Bokm?lites use no: for Bokm?l and nn: for Nynorsk.
Most Nynorskians use no: for *both*, nb: for Bokm?l, and nn: for Nynorsk.

The intention is that no: should apply to the "Norwegian language".

Many (but by no means all) Bokm?lites despise Nynorsk (a Norwegian
must be proficient in both forms in order to graduate), and see Bokm?l
as "Norsk", THE Norwegian language, and Nynorsk as "Nynorsk", the
Cinderella of the Scandinavian tongues (with the exception of those
which are disputed, for example Jamskt, Scanian, Gutnish, etc. which
some say are dialects and others say are languages, and Norn which is
beyond this world), a unique Norwegian creation that to many
Bokm?lites is more of an annoying pest than it is an object of
linguistic nationalistic pride.

Nynorskians, however, being a minority, see it slightly differently.
Those who are passionate about Nynorsk may see Bokm?l as not Norwegian
at all and Nynorsk as *the* Norwegian, but I think most Nynorsk users
see both Bokm?l and Nynorsk as equally valid written varieties of the
Norwegian language.

A technical solution might be a bit difficult.

I think the best idea is to create nb: paralell to no:. People can
move those articles which are in Bokm?l, and ONLY Bokm?l will be
allowed there. Pages on no: would continue to exist and new pages
could be created, but...

Anyhow, I do *not* think it is OK to change the language name for no:
from "Norsk" to "Norsk (Bokm?l)", as it is NOT the Bokm?l Wikipedia.

Mark

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:21:10 -0500, Henry H. Tan-Tenn
<share2002nov at lomaji.com> wrote:
> Brion Vibber ti 2004/11/10 EP 03:51 sia-kong:
> > On Nov 10, 2004, at 5:05 AM, Pochung(Pektiong) Chen(Tan) wrote:
> >> In ISO 639-3 we will have
> >> nor= {nob, nno}, Norweigian (so called macrolanguage code)
> >> nob= Norweigian Bokmal
> >> nno= Norweigian Nynorsk
> >
> >
> > This doesn't really provide anything that ISO 639-1 doesn't already in
> > no, nb, nn.
>
> Utility aside, the "no" in ISO 639-1 may not be semantically identical
> to "nor" in ISO 639-3.  Though how "no" has actually been used by
> Norwegian users is probably more relevant.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Video uploaded...

body:
On 12 Nov 2004, at 21:47, Rich Holton wrote:

> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2004-November/
> 035849.html

Very well put.
Let me totally <AOL /> that. (And I'm saying that as a Mac OS X (ex
OS/2, ex Win, ex DOS, ex etc.) user.)

Two sidethoughts:

1. 	Earlier in the thread, Word .doc format was mentioned (humorously
or no) as a de-facto "standard".
	<rant>
		There is no such thing as a "Word format".
		Yes, I know, the recent Word versions (Win-Word 97-2003 & Mac-Word
98-2004) are said to use the same format. That claim is a
bunch of Mullarkey:
		As soon as you start using some more advanced Word features such as
document outlines, tables and headers and footers, you'll find that
.doc-file (A) which you created on, say WordXP/WinXP will actually look
different on, say Word97/Win 98 or Word2004/OSX). The file format may
technically be identical, but that's no use whatsoever, because the
content still renders differently in the various versions of Word,
including those where MS expressly pledges that things were
compatible. That's not even to mention the various other versions
of Word before that which openly were semi-compatible (at best). Or the
partial guesswork that could/can be involved when trying to figure out
which is the "right" version of Word to open a particular file with. Or
the mess when it comes to conversion to other formats where MS kindly
sometimes only offers importers, but no exporters. There
is no such thing as a Word format, dig it. "Word format" is
a broad expression that covers a zoo of "I didn't mean that line break
to be there"-files.
		I use PDF as often as possible.
		Yes, LaTex or encapsulated Postscript may to a degree even be better
at preserving formatting and/or be editable, but try sending Jane
Random User an .eps file. Good luck.
	</rant>

2.	As a Mac user I have to chip in on your mentioning OS X:
	IMHO being a Mac user is ''primarily'' an '''attitude''' thing. It's
probably possible to be happy with other platforms, I just found it
easier to be happy with OS X. If you want to honestly understand that
Mac mindset, try this article:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/delicious-library.ars Some may even
find that article negative or scary, but they're probably no past or
future Mac users.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: Matthew Trump

subject: [Wikitech-l] Mac OS X installation problem

body:
I've running MediaWiki on Linux with no problems, with multiple
trouble-free installations, and am doing my first installation on Mac
OS X.

I have Mac OSX 10.3.2 and am running MySQL 4.1. I already ran into
the problem of having to set the root password the "old way" on
MySQL, which allowed me to connect to the database server (the
Mediawiki user guide was good on this point). However, it's now
failing on this (see below, note tables were created by previous
attempt). I was wondering if someone intimately familiar with the
installation script could give a suggestion about how to proceed.

Also the line states wikidb exists. In fact, when I check using the
command line client, the wikidb does not in fact exist.

Any suggestions from the experts? I'm at a loss.

Thanks,

Matthew Trump

================================================

PHP 4.3.2: ok

PHP server API is apache; ok, using pretty URLs (index.php/Page_Title)

Have XML / Latin1-UTF-8 conversion support.

PHP is configured with no memory_limit.

Have zlib support; enabling output compression.

Couldn't find GD library or ImageMagick; image thumbnailing disabled.

Installation directory:
/Users/trump/vhosts/multnomah.decumanus.com/htdocs/mediawiki-1.3.7

Script URI path: /mediawiki

Connected as root (automatic)

Connected to database... 4.1.7-standard; enabling MySQL 4 enhancements

Database wikidb exists

There are already MediaWiki tables in this database. Checking if
updates are needed...

...ipblocks is up to date.
...already have interwiki table
...indexes seem up to 20031107 standards
...have linkscc table.
...linkscc is up to date, or does not exist. Good.
...have hitcounter table.
Converting links table to ID-ID...
Sorry! The wiki is experiencing some technical difficulties, and
cannot contact the database server.


list: wikien-l

from_name: John Lee

subject: [WikiEN-l] Preliminary Deletion

body:
Preliminary Deletion's voting has closed; alas, a consensus was
unobtainable, although some have been making effort arguing that a
consensus is not necessary, as a 2:1 majority in favour of the proposal
was achieved. I take no sides in this debate. However, I have taken the
leisure of rewriting the proposal to include a suggestion of anthony's,
and answers to nine questions/objections. I have also merged a popular
suggestion with the proposal itself, albeit cutting out a lot of fluff.

I hope I can get quite a few people from the mailing list to go over the
proposal again, because I fervently believe we need to do something
about VFD before collapses under its own weight. I wanted to address
people's objections, I really did, but I can see no conceivable way to
do so without alienating yet another sizeable segment of Wikipedia.
People want less bureaucracy, but they don't want to give admins a free
rein. So what do we do? Let users delete and recreate articles freely?
Imagine the delete wars! I think it's very sad that about half of the
objections couldn't be addressed with more than a list of points about
why they cannot be handled. I'm quite unhappy that we can't have our
cake and eat it too, but I'm even more unhappy that it seems quite a bit
of people think we can.

Some others seem to have voted against the proposal without giving a
reason beyond that "it's bad", so I could not address their objections,
whatever they may be.

In closing, I beg some of the wiser and not-so-wiser ones reading this
list to read (or reread) [[Wikipedia:Preliminary Deletion]] and engage
in discussion about it; we need all the suggestions we can get. If we
could still somehow grasp that elusive cake from our stomachs and yet
obtain full nutitrional benefit...

John Lee
([[User:Johnleemk]])


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Video uploaded...

body:
Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [041113 02:58]:

> Yes, they match the definition. But there are other formats that match
> the definition just as well, but that you want to forbid because you
> prefer your free formats to formats that are free only in practice but
> not in theory and want to force your opinion upon me and others.

You've convinced me. I move we make data dumps only available in the
universal standard format, i.e. MS Word documents.

- d.


from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: whistleblowing on NSK

body:
Jens Ropers wrote:
> As there was genuine, repeated interest in NSK's user identity and NSK
> has AFAIK still not clarified his identity himself, I will "blow the
> whistle", that is, I will relay the relevant info (which is, after all,
> freely and openly available):
>
> NSK appears to be [[en:User:Npc]].
> He has been active since October 23 and as of this writing has made 96
> edits.
> A certain share of his contributions are insertions of links to his own
> wiki projects. These link insertions may be (or may not be) perceived
> as inappropriate, but others be the judge of that. Not all of NSK's
> contributions are such link insertions and IMHO some of his
> contributions are quite ok.
>
> Sorry to be the one to "blow the whistle" but I feel there's a public
> interest; no offense to NSK.
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com
>
> http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?
> collection=independent_news&collectionid=Mosh

Good grief. Hardly a public service!

TBSDY


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: phase3/includes SpecialPage.php,1.24,1.25

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Update of /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes
> In directory sc8-pr-cvs1.sourceforge.net:/tmp/cvs-serv19521/includes
>
> Modified Files:
> 	SpecialPage.php
> Log Message:
> Special:Userlogin would display "sysop access required" message when user was already
> logged in.  Fixed
>
>
>
> Index: SpecialPage.php
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/SpecialPage.php,v
> retrieving revision 1.24
> retrieving revision 1.25
> diff -C2 -d -r1.24 -r1.25
> *** SpecialPage.php	24 Oct 2004 19:14:46 -0000	1.24
> --- SpecialPage.php	12 Nov 2004 21:56:58 -0000	1.25
> ***************
> *** 27,32 ****
>   	'BrokenRedirects'	=> new UnlistedSpecialPage ( 'BrokenRedirects' ),
>   	'Disambiguations'	=> new UnlistedSpecialPage ( 'Disambiguations' ),
> !
> ! 	'Userlogin'         => new SpecialPage( 'Userlogin', 'createaccount' ),
>   	'Userlogout'        => new UnlistedSpecialPage( 'Userlogout' ),
>   	'Preferences'       => new SpecialPage( 'Preferences' ),
> --- 27,32 ----
>   	'BrokenRedirects'	=> new UnlistedSpecialPage ( 'BrokenRedirects' ),
>   	'Disambiguations'	=> new UnlistedSpecialPage ( 'Disambiguations' ),
> !
> ! 	'Userlogin'         => new SpecialPage( 'Userlogin' ),
>   	'Userlogout'        => new UnlistedSpecialPage( 'Userlogout' ),
>   	'Preferences'       => new SpecialPage( 'Preferences' ),
> ***************
> *** 43,57 ****
>   	'Uncategorizedpages'=> new SpecialPage( 'Uncategorizedpages' ),
>   	'Unusedimages'      => new SpecialPage( 'Unusedimages' )
> ! );
>
>   global $wgDisableCounters;
>   if( !$wgDisableCounters ) {
>   	$wgSpecialPages['Popularpages'] = new SpecialPage( 'Popularpages' );
> ! }
> !
> ! global $wgUseData ;
> ! if ( $wgUseData ) {
>   	$wgSpecialPages['Data'] = new SpecialPage( 'Data' );
> ! }
>
>   $wgSpecialPages = array_merge($wgSpecialPages, array (
> --- 43,57 ----
>   	'Uncategorizedpages'=> new SpecialPage( 'Uncategorizedpages' ),
>   	'Unusedimages'      => new SpecialPage( 'Unusedimages' )
> ! );
>
>   global $wgDisableCounters;
>   if( !$wgDisableCounters ) {
>   	$wgSpecialPages['Popularpages'] = new SpecialPage( 'Popularpages' );
> ! }
> !
> ! global $wgUseData ;
> ! if ( $wgUseData ) {
>   	$wgSpecialPages['Data'] = new SpecialPage( 'Data' );
> ! }
>
>   $wgSpecialPages = array_merge($wgSpecialPages, array (

Timwi,

Please patch your database using:
./maintenance/archives/patch-userlevels-defaultgroups.sql

That will create default groups and assign to anonymous users the right
to create an account.

Your patch just broke a feature known as "only sysop can create account".

I am reverting your change.

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org


body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Timwi wrote:
>
>> Update of /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes
>> In directory sc8-pr-cvs1.sourceforge.net:/tmp/cvs-serv19521/includes
>>
>> Modified Files:
>>     SpecialPage.php Log Message:
>> Special:Userlogin would display "sysop access required" message when
>> user was already logged in.  Fixed
>>
>>
>>
>> Index: SpecialPage.php
>> ===================================================================
>> RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/SpecialPage.php,v
>> retrieving revision 1.24
>> retrieving revision 1.25
>> diff -C2 -d -r1.24 -r1.25
>> *** SpecialPage.php    24 Oct 2004 19:14:46 -0000    1.24
>> --- SpecialPage.php    12 Nov 2004 21:56:58 -0000    1.25
>> ***************
>> *** 27,32 ****
>>       'BrokenRedirects'    => new UnlistedSpecialPage (
>> 'BrokenRedirects' ),
>>       'Disambiguations'    => new UnlistedSpecialPage (
>> 'Disambiguations' ),
>> !
>> !     'Userlogin'         => new SpecialPage( 'Userlogin',
>> 'createaccount' ),
>>       'Userlogout'        => new UnlistedSpecialPage( 'Userlogout' ),
>>       'Preferences'       => new SpecialPage( 'Preferences' ),
>> --- 27,32 ----
>>       'BrokenRedirects'    => new UnlistedSpecialPage (
>> 'BrokenRedirects' ),
>>       'Disambiguations'    => new UnlistedSpecialPage (
>> 'Disambiguations' ),
>> ! !     'Userlogin'         => new SpecialPage( 'Userlogin' ),
>>       'Userlogout'        => new UnlistedSpecialPage( 'Userlogout' ),
>>       'Preferences'       => new SpecialPage( 'Preferences' ),
>> ***************
>> *** 43,57 ****
>>       'Uncategorizedpages'=> new SpecialPage( 'Uncategorizedpages' ),
>>       'Unusedimages'      => new SpecialPage( 'Unusedimages' )
>> ! );
>>     global $wgDisableCounters;
>>   if( !$wgDisableCounters ) {
>>       $wgSpecialPages['Popularpages'] = new SpecialPage(
>> 'Popularpages' );
>> ! }
>> ! ! global $wgUseData ;
>> ! if ( $wgUseData ) {
>>       $wgSpecialPages['Data'] = new SpecialPage( 'Data' );
>> ! }
>>     $wgSpecialPages = array_merge($wgSpecialPages, array (
>> --- 43,57 ----
>>       'Uncategorizedpages'=> new SpecialPage( 'Uncategorizedpages' ),
>>       'Unusedimages'      => new SpecialPage( 'Unusedimages' )
>> ! );
>>     global $wgDisableCounters;
>>   if( !$wgDisableCounters ) {
>>       $wgSpecialPages['Popularpages'] = new SpecialPage(
>> 'Popularpages' );
>> ! }
>> ! ! global $wgUseData ;
>> ! if ( $wgUseData ) {
>>       $wgSpecialPages['Data'] = new SpecialPage( 'Data' );
>> ! }
>>     $wgSpecialPages = array_merge($wgSpecialPages, array (
>
>
> Timwi,
>
> Please patch your database using:
> ./maintenance/archives/patch-userlevels-defaultgroups.sql
>
> That will create default groups and assign to anonymous users the right
> to create an account.
>
> Your patch just broke a feature known as "only sysop can create account".
>
> I am reverting your change.

Ignore my reply. Did not revert.

I need to come up with a better patch to restrict user account creation
and to allow the creation of account by someone else (ex: bureaucrat).

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Vote Fraud Flurry

body:
Here's a reasonably good story regarding the Vote Fraud flurry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/politics/12theory.html

It was news, but not for its substance.

Fred


from_name: Government of the Gay Kingdom

subject: [WikiEN-l] unsubscribe

body:
-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Delirium
Sent: Friday, 12 November 2004 4:45 AM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [WikiEN-l] the AC needs people with free time
and interest

After a year (?) or so on the arbitration committee, and not being
particularly interested in staying on it, there's one main obstacle I've

seen: A lack of people with sufficient free time and interest to wade
through the often complicated disputes.  It's not, in my opinion,
problems in getting together a quorum, or even problems in discussing
contentious disputes that are the primary stumbling block.  It's just
the lack of getting *anything* rolling at all.

Often parties to disputes will dump literally hundreds of links to edit
histories, and engage in lengthy multi-page accusations and
counter-accusations.  Someone has to sort through that and try to make
sense of it.  It's not a particularly interesting job, of course.

Once someone does sort through it, and proposes something, the actual
voting is comparatively unproblematic.  There have been occasions when
voting has been too slow, but that can be dealt with by e.g. leaving
nagging messages on peoples' talk pages.  The biggest and hardest to
overcome delays are those where voting has simply never started, because

nobody had the time or inclination to wade through the pile of evidence
and accusations to distill a set of options to vote on in the first
place.  How to solve that I don't really know.

-Mark

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] unsubscribe

body:
-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of David Gerard
Sent: Friday, 12 November 2004 2:05 AM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: AC with a small quorum and
IRC meetings

Tim Starling (t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au) [041111 22:05]:

> Not all of them use IRC. We can provide technical support to help
> arbitrators install a client on their computer. We could also set up a

> CGI:IRC gateway, or make a proxy available, if it proves to be
> necessary. The idea of setting up a CGI:IRC gateway for all the
> Wikipedia channels has been suggested before, we could probably just
do
> that, if we have the hardware resources.

CGI:IRC is awkward to use, though, and may be offputting. Is there a
free
software Java applet similar to (non-free) jIRC (from jpilot.com)? jIRC
is
pretty usable in my experience. (Presumably we can find one that works
under Kaffe, to keep the free software purity ;-)

- d.
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] unsubscribe

body:
-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of sockmonk at gmail.com
Sent: Friday, 12 November 2004 12:42 AM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [WikiEN-l] Troll?

Yes, in internet usage, a "troll" is usually someone who posts
"flamebait" to a discussion. That is, they will state something that
is highly controversial in order to elicit a strong reaction to it,
typically a reaction against it. They are (usually) disliked because
they are seen as just stirring up arguments for the sake of stirring
up arguments. Occasionally, the troll might just be trying to get
someone else's hidden opinion out into the open.

"Don't feed the trolls" basically means don't take the bait, don't
encourage a troll by participating in the argument they were trying to
start. Not feeding the trolls is generally good advice and just good
netiquette.

--
sockmonk
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] unsubscribe

body:
-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Charles Matthews
Sent: Friday, 12 November 2004 12:00 AM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [WikiEN-l] Troll?

Mark Richards wrote
> For our purposes, except when used as someone intending to destroy the
community or who intends to be entertained at the expense of others,
these
are the operative definitions:
>
> 1. Troll is a word used inappropriately as an insult;
> 2. Calling someone a troll is a way of harrassing folks who disagree
with
you.
>
> ;)

I may be getting middle-aged and pompous, but I see nothing amusing
here.
Gresham's Law applies to Internet dialogue; trolls (not those who simply
hold strong views) are the counterfeiters.  Of course edit warriors
reach
for the T- and V- words.

Charles

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] unsubscribe

body:
-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Richards
Sent: Thursday, 11 November 2004 10:53 PM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [WikiEN-l] Troll?

For our purposes, except when used as someone intending to destroy the
community or who intends to be entertained at the expense of others,
these are the operative definitions:

1. Troll is a word used inappropriately as an insult;
2. Calling someone a troll is a way of harrassing folks who disagree
with you.

;)

Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
For our purposes, except when used inappropriately as an insult or as a
way
of harrassing folks who disagree with you, these are the operative
definitions:

> 3. Troll is anybody who intends to destroy a community.
> 4. Troll is anybody who intends to be entertained at the expense of
other
> users.

Fred

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] unsubscribe

body:
-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Fred Bauder
Sent: Thursday, 11 November 2004 9:53 PM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [WikiEN-l] election fraud article

It is the duty of anyone who sees this on the main page to remove it.
And
just who is putting it back? This is a clear violation of
[[Wikipedia:What
Wikipedia is not]], not propaganda. But there is something to it. Here
in
the county where I live the county clerk, a Republican, was removed from
supervising the election due to failure to mail out absentee ballots
which
would mostly have gone to Democrats. She was also keeping early ballots
in a
closet accessable to the public rather than in the safe. But what
happened
was more an example of the system working than not working.

Fred

> From: Delirium <delirium at hackish.org>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:16:13 -0500
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] election fraud article
>
> Personal political views disclaimer: I voted for John Kerry, and am of
> the mind that the possibility of voter fraud in the just-completed
> election cannot be altogether discounted.
>
> ---
>
> That said, I find the fact that people keep adding
> [[en:2004_U.S._Election_controversies_and_irregularities]] to the main
> page odd.  It's a poorly-written article that mostly cites amateurish
> statistical correlations (with lots of graphs) and draws unwarranted
> causations from them, and generally reads like it was written by the
> tinfoil-hat crowd.  Furthermore, this issue isn't really "in the news"
> by any stretch of the imagination, and even on left-leaning sites such
> as dailykos.com, it's controversial and not agreed upon.  In short,
this
> article presents a viewpoint that:
> 1) Shouldn't be on the front page, based on newsworthiness and
> neutrality; and
> 2) Is controversial *even* by the standards of a left-wing community
> that agrees John Kerry would make a much better president than George
W.
> Bush.
>
> As such, it would be nice if someone would remove it from the front
> page.  I've already reverted three times today, so will not do so
again,
> but I feel it makes us look like we're both amateurish and biased.
>
> -Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: foundation-l

from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia in Realtime

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:

> Kate Turner has written a tool that makes it possible to follow the
> recent
> changes

Kudos to Kate.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia in Realtime


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Found my first case of Wikipedia plagiarism

body:
Well, I have just come across my first case of Wikipedia
plagiarism. Someone just turned in an extra-credit research
paper on the legality and morality of abortion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_legality_of_abortion

They simply cut-and-pasted the entire article, including
bulet points and "Related articles", added their own
introduction paragraph, and their own conclusion paragraph.

I dealt with this in accord with my school's plagiarism
policy - and a lot of leeway - since the student in
question really did not understand the difference between
plagiarism and writing one's own paper.  Sadly, a huge
amount of NYC inner-city high school student are literally
writing at a fourth or fifth grade level, and show zero
awareness of issues such as plagiarism and copyright
infringement.

>From my conversations with middle-school teachers (and
reading articles in teaching journals) it is an unwritten
policy in NYC schools that children are automatically
promoted to the next grade as long as they have good
attendance and behave in class. The result of this
pseudo-liberal(*) attitude is that we have high schools
full of illiterate kids who can't read, can't write, and
think that "handing a paper in" is truly what matters, even
if they did not write it themselves.

Currently, I am trying to deal with this issue by giving a
copy of the following paper to all of my students, and
having a day discussing this topic.

Plagiarism: What It is and How to Recognize and Avoid It
http://www.indiana.edu/~wts/pamphlets/plagiarism.shtml

Obviously, a high school science shouldn't have to do this;
we should be teaching science.  But in practice most of our
students have been failed by their family, their community
and many of their previous teachers; they come to us
ignorant of what a well-schooled sixth grader should know
by heart. (Some high-schoolers, in fact, are on a
third-grade reading level.) We thus need to spend time
teaching them things that others did not.

Lately I have been seeing more and more borderline
plagiarism taking place in homework assignments, and the
text is often coming from sites that have copied Wikipedia
content. Have others here seen this problem?

I understand that Wikipedia is not at all responsible for
someone's plagiarism or copyright infringement; however I
was thinking that we should have an article on the subject
that we could use as a handout. Our Plagiarism article is a
good start.

Robert (RK)

(*) I say pseudo-liberal, because these policies do not
represent actual progressive educational policies. Actual
progressive educational policies help students learn; the
status quo, however, grossly lowers the bar for passing to
give the illusion of progress, which hurts the students and
eventually their community.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Vancouver university

body:
Could you provide a url to the retraction? Also, is there any information in
the article which relates to Vancouver University Worldwide which is not
true?

Fre

> From: Registry - Vancouver University <registry at vancouveruniversity.edu>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:52:12 -0800
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Vancouver university
>
> It is utterly unfair to keep this USA Today reference
> (and therefrom other-derived references) to Vancouver
> University without acknowledging that USA Today
> subsequently published a retraction letter.
>
> Likuan Tham
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Troll?

body:
sockmonk at gmail.com wrote:

>Yes, in internet usage, a "troll" is usually someone who posts
>"flamebait" to a discussion. That is, they will state something that
>is highly controversial in order to elicit a strong reaction to it,
>typically a reaction against it. They are (usually) disliked because
>they are seen as just stirring up arguments for the sake of stirring
>up arguments. Occasionally, the troll might just be trying to get
>someone else's hidden opinion out into the open.
>
>
This is more in line with how I understand the term in an internet
context.  It allows for the fact that not all trolling is evil.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] the AC needs people with free time and interest

body:
Delirium wrote:

> Often parties to disputes will dump literally hundreds of links to
> edit histories, and engage in lengthy multi-page accusations and
> counter-accusations.  Someone has to sort through that and try to make
> sense of it.  It's not a particularly interesting job, of course.

IMHO much of this stems from an inability to impose a standard of
relevance on evidence.  If you are discussing someone's specific
wrongdoing, it is usually completely irrelevant for an accuser to bring
up an event that was settled last year.  So too is the accused's
behaviour toward a third person who is not part of the case.  That third
person may have a higher tolerance level for silliness.

Ec


from_name: ilooy

body:
Maybe this is a silly thought...
But couldn't both forms of the language coexist
as in a "samnorsk" implementation of the language
at least in Wikipedia?

The differences between Nynorsk and Bokmal seem
not too different from Mexican, Argentine and Central
Spanish forms of Castilian. Also when considering
Brazilian and European forms of Portuguese the
difference seems greater in pronunciation and style
than that experienced between Nynorsk and Bookmal
at least in my understanding of the situation.

So why couldn't there be a "Samnorsk" Coexistence
between the Norwegian flavors of the language of
Norway... I know the political issues involved may be
too much for a simple discussion of the linguistic
problems involved, but couldn't a Norwegian wikipedia
take as an example the Spanish and Portuguese wikis?

With naive regards,
Jay B.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:46:43 +0100, Lars Alvik <larsal at stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
> P? 13. nov. 2004 kl. 07.59 skrev Mark Williamson:
>
> > It can be summed up this way:
> >
> > Most Bokm?lites use no: for Bokm?l and nn: for Nynorsk.
> > Most Nynorskians use no: for *both*, nb: for Bokm?l, and nn: for
> > Nynorsk.
> >
> > The intention is that no: should apply to the "Norwegian language".


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] election fraud article

references:
<4192CB6D.8000104@hackish.org> <BDB8A09B.8D50%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<1e20f12904111119363dc46c1e@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Nathan Russell wrote:
> I am one of those who returned the article in question to the main page.

Other than the fact that it is currently quite a poor article, I don't
think many seriously objects to the need for such an article.  The VfD
is currently 50-5 in favor of keeping it.

The problem with it being listed on the main page is that a listing
there under "In the news..." is a statement *itself*, one that needs
to be neutral.  If we say that something is "In the news..." when it
is actually a tiny side story that doesn't seem to be going anywhere,
then we are inappropriately pushing an agenda.

For me, when I saw it on the home page of Wikipedia, I thought: wow,
is there some big news?  Because the front page of Wikipedia *means
something*.  It's an incredibly *credible* source of information.

So I quickly went to several of the major news organizations, CNN,
BBC, the Guardian, etc.  And none of them were treating it as a major
story.

I think our credibility takes a hit if we treat things as major
stories, when it's really just the rumblings of blogs, and fairly
routine stuff about voting irregularities that comes after every
election.

It'll be interesting to see how this might vary for WikiNews, I think.
WikiNews is to be neutral as well, but even so a *news* wiki is
different from an *encyclopedia* wiki.  Perhaps we'll end up more
comfortable at some point (not in the early days, I think, because
credibility is crucial) leading the rest of the media on some
important story.

But not Wikipedia.

--Jimbo


list: commons-l

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Commons-l] Original art on Commons

body:
Wikimedia desparately needs more artists. Projects like Wikijunior - a
collection of Wikireaders for kids - need high quality illustrations in
order to flourish.

In my opinion, the Wikimedia Commons should become the central artistic
hub of the Wikimedia community.

What can we do to make it so?

Well, there are a few technical changes that will help:
- New upload form that makes it easier to choose licenses and write
descriptions. I'm planning to hack something together here soon, but it
won't be the super-ultra form that I've created mock-ups for in the
original Commons proposal.
- An external media manager to collect files and batch-upload them to the
Commons, with a nice Windows GUI to boot.
- A better discussion page system. The whole Image talk:, Commons talk:
etc. wiki page system is confusing for newcomers and difficult to track
for us.

But except for the first one, these changes will take months. There are a
few things we can do right now:

Create portals for different communities
----------------------------------------
 - 2D artists
 - 3D artists
 - photographers
 - filmmakers
 - sound experts

The purpose of these portals would be that we can pass on these URLs to
people who know nothing about Wikimedia. Each portal should give a brief
description of the type of files that we want - useful to Wikimedia
projects - and the free content principle. It should also highlight a few
of the existing works in that category as examples, including links to the
Wikimedia projects that use them.

Featured content separated by category
--------------------------------------
Successful community art sites have some kind of comment and feedback
process. For us right now, that is [[Commons:Featured picture
candidates]]. I think we need to create this site in all the categories
mentioned above, and link the individual featured content candidate pages
from the portals.

Catalog and systematically approach existing projects
-----------------------------------------------------
The largest community art website I know is deviantart.com. Much of their
content is not of interest to us as it is purely artistic. However, they
have many excellent photos. Alas, most of them are not under an open
content license.

First, we need a list of these projects.

Second, for each of them we need volunteers who search existing content
and browse new content. Virtually all of them have contact forms. In cases
where the content is useful to us, we could post standard messages:

  Hi Xy,

  your picture [bla] could be useful for the Wikimedia project [abc].
  In order to use it there, we would need it under an [[open content]]
  license, such as the GNU Free Documentation License.

  Would you be willing to put your picture under such a license? I would
  then upload it to the Wikimedia Commons, our shared media repository.
  If you want, you can also upload it there yourself - see the
  [portal link] for further instructions.

I think if these messages are sufficiently personalized, they will not be
considered spam.

Press release
-------------
Once we have the portals more or less in operation, we need to start
working on our first real press release. One good occasion would be the
50,000th media file. I'm picking a reasonably high number so we have some
time to prepare this properly.

This press release would include a real press kit, with examples of our
media and information about the Wikimedia projects. It would also
prominently describe each of the different portals. We could create
variant versions to send to different communities - e.g. photo magazines,
artist weblogs etc.

Rules of exclusion
------------------
During all of this, we need to make it very clear that the Wikimedia
Commons is for Wikimedia projects. People will be pissed off if we delete
excellent artistic works that have no relation to anything we do.

Maybe in the future, art itself will become one of our missions, but right
now it isn't. Anything that's created needs to be tied to the distribution
of knowledge. So that should be emphasized on all the portals.

Getting all of this off the ground will be a huge undertaking, especially
since our community is still small. I will be occupied by Wikinews in the
next few weeks, so I would appreciate it if anyone else took the
initiative to start working on this.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for new Wikipedia: Friulian

body:
A. Decorte wrote:

>Hello, I'm the user (Klenje) who was quoted at the beginning in the request;
>I'm a friulian speaker, I'm active in italian wiki, and there are other friulian
>people like me outside in the net (don't forget that Friulian is spoken by more
>than half million people), therefore i think there is the chance for a decent
>friulian wikipedia to be created; I can show you several site in friulian, and
>if they aren't more, this is due to the policy of italian government which so
>far doesn't promote minorities within Italy. Friulian speakers share this
>problem with sardinian and sicilian ones, but in my opionion wikipedia could
>help changing this situation; the only risk in creating a friulian wiki is the
>possibility of vandalism, but every wiki is started from few users and there
>are many ways to prevent it.
>
I don't think that there is wide objection to having a Friulian
Wikipedia.  The validity of the language is solid.  My own objection to
the initial proposal was based on the fact that the person doing all the
promoting did not himself know the language.  The initiative,
administration and other work to make such a project a success needs to
come from people who know the language.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia in Realtime

body:
Kate Turner has written a tool that makes it possible to follow the recent
changes of any Wikimedia project in real-time, in a web browser:

        http://kohl.wikimedia.org/cgi-bin/rcdumper?d=enwiki

See

        http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Realtime_recent_changes

for information on how to get it for different wikis and in different
interface languages.

The tool is currently in BETA. As I understand it, the autoscrolling only
works in Mozilla. But it's already very nice to look at and will be an
excellent tool both for vandalism patrol and for presenting Wikimedia.
It's also very useful on smaller wikis like Meta, where you can keep it
running in the background and go back later to see what's happened.

I'd like to thank Kate again for writing this tool. I'd also like to ask
all of you to add a link to it to your local [[<Project>:Recentchanges]]
(for some reason this page is not in the MediaWiki namespace yet). - It's
mature enough already to do that. But please point out that it is still in
BETA.

Kate has also written a few other useful tools, which can be found here:
http://kate.wikimedia.org/kates-tools/index.action

* Count edits of a user
* "Six degrees of separation" between two pages
* Check for existence of a username on different wikis
* Unified watchlist for all wikis you work on

Note that you'll have to create an account and "hook up" your existing
Wikimedia usernames for the unified watchlist to work.

I never cease to be amazed by the creativity of Wikimedia users and
developers.

All best,

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia in Realtime


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] it:wiktionary's Christmas project.

body:
On the 13th of november, the steamboat of "Sinterklaas" arrives in
Alkmaar. People in the Netherlands and particularly the kids of the
Netherlands welcome the "Sint" from his summer residence of  Madrid
Spain. With his boat loaded with presents for the kids who have been
good, the kids await the nameday of the Sint and on "pakjesavond" the
evening of the 5th of december the Sint will, on his white horse and his
black helpers who are all called "Piet", bring the presents to the
waiting kids..

Sinterklaas who is actually from Mira Turkey and lies burried in Bari
Italy, is the predessesor of the Santaclaus who everybody knows comes
Finland and brings the presents on Christmas on his sledge with reindeer
.....

This year, we have started a nice Christmas project. The Italian
wiktionary who will be centre stage for this,
http://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/Buon_Natale_e_felice_Anno_Nuovo%21 is a
page where you find "Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!" in many
languages and some have pronounciations. There is already a sizable
collection but, it is not complete, it is not always correct and as
importantly, we want to HEAR how it sounds in all these languages !!

The best place to store all these .ogg soundfiles is in our Commons
project. For the use of pronounciations, the wiktionary project has come
up with a naming convention: first the ISO 639 code and then the word or
phrase e.g. "image:it-Buon Natale e felice Anno Nuovo!.ogg" is the one
for Italian.

One way in which wiktionaries can join in is by also hosting all these
merry wishes in their wiktionary with sounds and everything. Another way
is by including other seasonal wishes as well. The wikipedia's can join
in by having article on "Celebrating Christmas" and inform us how
Christmas is celebrated in various communities, the rituals and
traditions, the festivities. In Wikibooks we could do something with
Christmas stories or songs from all over the world. One way in which we
all can join this project is by enjoying it and have a great happy
Christmas and a wonderfull new year.

Thanks,
    Sabine Cretella
    Gerard Meijssen


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] it:wiktionary's Christmas project.


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Mediawiki-l] Special-purpose MediaWiki clones,
	relation to MediaWiki family

body:
Chris-
> Yes, I was thinking of the Wikimedia Foundation's projects.  Would
> Wise-Nano or Nanopedia (the hoped-for end product) be a good addition to
> that group of projects?

> If my site uses a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike license, does
> that fulfill the Gnu license, or do I have to include Gnu boilerplate on
> any text I copy from a Gnu'd site?

1) The appropriate list to discuss whether a particular project can be
part of the Wikimedia set of projects is
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I've therefore CC'd my response there.

2) Generally, Wikimedia projects are very broad. There is only one notable
exception to that rule, the recently created Wikispecies (which is why I
think it should be incorporated into a larger Wikidata project).

It has been proposed in the past to have a "Wikipolicy" project as a sort
of open brainstorming space for determining useful political policies on
various issues. That might be an idea worth developing further, but I
would oppose a narrow project like Wise-Nano.

3) All text-centric projects are under the GNU FDL (Wikispecies licensing
is not decided yet), so that would have to be the license to use.

Regards,

Erik
_______________________________________________
MediaWiki-l mailing list
MediaWiki-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l


list: textbook-l

from_name: John Dehlin

subject: [Textbook-l] Coase's Penguin / OpenTextbooks

body:
Family, Friends, and OpenTextbook folks,

This paper (http://www.benkler.org/CoasesPenguin.PDF) is by far the most
important paper I've read so far in my short academic life, and in many ways
could be considered the "bible" for what we are trying to do in
OpenTextbooks.  To summarize--it's all about how the Internet is making it
possible for very large groups of people to come together to do amazing
things in the creation of information, outside of a commercial model.  It
focuses on the economics of it all, but gives some great examples as well.

Some cool sites to look at that are discussed in this article include:

* www.wikipedia.org (the best encyclopedia on the internet, created purely
by volunteers)
* http://dmoz.org (an internet directory, rivaling yahoo, that again is
created purely by volunteers)
* http://clickworkers.arc.nasa.gov/top (a NASA project where volunteers from
all over the world are mapping the craters of Mars
* http://slashdot.org (an self-moderated community of information ?news for
geeks?)

My personal goal (OpenTextbooks) is to help create a framework for allowing
communities to come together and create free, open textbooks, that hopefully
will not only help kids learn better, but will also save schools literally
millions of dollars a year in costs.

Anyway, please give it a read if you can, or are in the mood.  It's quite
long and academic, and might take you a month--but the ideas and principles
therein (I believe) explain very significant social movements afoot.

Please check it out if you can.  For those of you doing a literature review
with me, this is a must-read.

John Dehlin

------ Forwarded Message
From: David Wiley <david.wiley at gmail.com>
Reply-To: David Wiley <david.wiley at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:04:17 -0700
To: <7150 at itosx.ed.usu.edu>
Subject: [7150] Great paper

Everyone,

Wanted to send out a link to this paper -- one of the best I've read
in the last five years. Literally.

http://www.benkler.org/CoasesPenguin.PDF

And yes, this is the paginated version.

For your edification, i.e., not required reading.

D
_______________________________________________
7150 mailing list
7150 at itosx.ed.usu.edu
http://itosx.ed.usu.edu/mailman/listinfo/7150

------ End of Forwarded Message

------ End of Forwarded Message


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
No, since the two are used side by side in the same nation, even by
people who live next door to each other.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:03:11 +0100, James R. Johnson
<modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Along those lines, as far as I know, in the English wiki, if you're
> discussing British politics, issues, etc., then you use British English and
> spelling, and American issues use America spelling and rules, and so on for
> Australian, etc.  Is there some way to do such a thing with Nynorsk and
> Bokmal?
>
> James
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of ilooy
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:58 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: no or nb for Bokmal,or time to move to ISO
> 639-3?
>
> Maybe this is a silly thought...
> But couldn't both forms of the language coexist
> as in a "samnorsk" implementation of the language
> at least in Wikipedia?
>
> The differences between Nynorsk and Bokmal seem
> not too different from Mexican, Argentine and Central
> Spanish forms of Castilian. Also when considering
> Brazilian and European forms of Portuguese the
> difference seems greater in pronunciation and style
> than that experienced between Nynorsk and Bookmal
> at least in my understanding of the situation.
>
> So why couldn't there be a "Samnorsk" Coexistence
> between the Norwegian flavors of the language of
> Norway... I know the political issues involved may be
> too much for a simple discussion of the linguistic
> problems involved, but couldn't a Norwegian wikipedia
> take as an example the Spanish and Portuguese wikis?
>
> With naive regards,
> Jay B.
>
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:46:43 +0100, Lars Alvik <larsal at stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
> > P? 13. nov. 2004 kl. 07.59 skrev Mark Williamson:
> >
> > > It can be summed up this way:
> > >
> > > Most Bokm?lites use no: for Bokm?l and nn: for Nynorsk.
> > > Most Nynorskians use no: for *both*, nb: for Bokm?l, and nn: for
> > > Nynorsk.
> > >
> > > The intention is that no: should apply to the "Norwegian language".
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:46:43 +0100, Lars Alvik <larsal at stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
> P? 13. nov. 2004 kl. 07.59 skrev Mark Williamson:
>
>
>
> > It can be summed up this way:
> >
> > Most Bokm?lites use no: for Bokm?l and nn: for Nynorsk.
> > Most Nynorskians use no: for *both*, nb: for Bokm?l, and nn: for
> > Nynorsk.
> >
> > The intention is that no: should apply to the "Norwegian language".
> >
> > Many (but by no means all) Bokm?lites despise Nynorsk (a Norwegian
> > must be proficient in both forms in order to graduate), and see Bokm?l
> > as "Norsk", THE Norwegian language, and Nynorsk as "Nynorsk", the
> > Cinderella of the Scandinavian tongues (with the exception of those
> > which are disputed, for example Jamskt, Scanian, Gutnish, etc. which
> > some say are dialects and others say are languages, and Norn which is
> > beyond this world), a unique Norwegian creation that to many
> > Bokm?lites is more of an annoying pest than it is an object of
> > linguistic nationalistic pride.
> >
> > Nynorskians, however, being a minority, see it slightly differently.
> > Those who are passionate about Nynorsk may see Bokm?l as not Norwegian
> > at all and Nynorsk as *the* Norwegian, but I think most Nynorsk users
> > see both Bokm?l and Nynorsk as equally valid written varieties of the
> > Norwegian language.
> >
> > A technical solution might be a bit difficult.
> >
> > I think the best idea is to create nb: paralell to no:. People can
> > move those articles which are in Bokm?l, and ONLY Bokm?l will be
> > allowed there. Pages on no: would continue to exist and new pages
> > could be created, but...
> >
> > Anyhow, I do *not* think it is OK to change the language name for no:
> > from "Norsk" to "Norsk (Bokm?l)", as it is NOT the Bokm?l Wikipedia.
> >
> > Mark
>
> *Paints "POV" in huge red letters over Williamsons mail* Your mail have
> inaccuancies to bokm?l and nynorsk, bokm?l people view nynorsk as a
> pest? This goes both ways, the ones that mostly hates nynorsk (or
> bokm?l) is teenagers that is forced to learn a different language in
> school, that they don't feel they have any use for (unlike english or
> perhaps german). Perhaps this "haterd" is stronger with the bokm?lusers
> (since nynorsk is smaller and is, in their eyes, less useful).

Inaccuracies? Such as what? I said "many", not "all". Please, read
carefully before falsely accusing me of such things.

> Mr. Aasen made nynorsk by collecting dialects (dominantly the western
> and the valleys in central-south norway. However the parts of norway
> with the largest population was largely ignored, like the farming areas
> of eastern norway, the south part of Oppland, Hedmark, Akershus,
> ?stfold, Buskerud and Vestfold) also the northern part of norway was
> largely ignored. If you see this tabell from the norwegian censors
> http://www.ssb.no/aarbok/tab/t-040220-183.html you can se that 519 528
> of 610 297 norwegian elementary schoolstudents use bokm?l in school,
> only in two fylker is there more nynorskstudents than bokm?lstudents,
> in Sogn og Fjordane and M?re og Romsdal (the heartland of nynorsk, Mr.
> Aasen was born in ?rsta in M?re og Romsdal). Historicaly the nynorsk
> language gained ground during the last part of the 19th century and the
> start of the 20th century when nationalromantism was the order of the
> day and norway wanted to break up the union with sweden. It was the
> same time that part of the norwegian history was romantized, the union
> with denmark was seen as "the four thousandyear nigth", eventhough this
> where directly false.

What is your point here? I know the figures as regards what %age of
Norwegian schoolchildren choose which. In addition, from what I have
heard, both Landsm?l and Riksm?l have been polluted over the years by
official government policies aimed at uniting them, the current result
is modern Nynorsk and Bokm?l which aren't as different (another thing
is that some forms were introduced as "optional", but when you use
them the two are closer).

> Yes, no: should point to the norwegian written language, but there are
> none such thing. 80% of norwegians use bokm?l (allthough some of them
> speaks a dialect that contains some nynorsk words, like -a endings
> (these are allowed on bokm?l too). However, the languages are equal in
> terms of administrative language. But on a national basis bokm?l is
> more used.

I know that. I know that, too. So what if Bokm?l is more widely used?
Hooray for Bokm?l. But that doesn't change the fact that BOTH are
equally valid ways of writing Norwegian. It doesn't somehow give
Bokm?l a claim to being THE "Norsk" (and thus the no: code).

> btw. the paralell solution would kill the no: (informaly bokm?l) wiki.
> And since most of the articles on no: is on either bokm?l or riksm?l,
> some 100-200 on nynorsk (i've been rcpatroling on no: since we where
> just ~800 articles, so i have a pretty good idea of the amount of
> articles in either language. Knowing that a large part of this work
> would fall on me i don't cherish this idea, and the fact that it's
> creating a chaos, two rcs to monitor and a devertion of work. Also,
> there are no bokm?l grasroot movement that wants to do this work, the
> people that supports this solution is mostly nynorskusers (primary
> nynorsk atleast).

How would it kill it? Most likely growth at nb: would be very slow,
and 99% of the users would stay at no:.

If you think no: should be labelled "Bokm?l"... how would you feel if
I went and wrote 10000 new, non-stub articles in Nynorsk for no:? It
must be stressed that no: is NOT the Bokm?l Wikipedia and it SHOULD
NOT BECOME the Bokm?l Wikipedia - it is the Norsk Wikipedia.
Regardless of the ratio (which you are slightly exaggerating, I think
it's more like 1:10 and not 1:100 like you say), even if there are
only 11 pages in Nynorsk, it is the Norsk Wikipedia, belonging to all
Norwegian languages (Oh no... I didn't mean to say that... I take it
back... if people started writing articles at no: in S?mi, things
would quickly descend into chaos).

> I vote for a solution where bokm?l keeps no: (but creates a page with
> reasons to why bokm?l have no:, that's going to get linked from the
> mainpage, and "ads" for nynorskwiki), the interwiki decoding changes to
> "norsk (bokm?l)" to clairify for non-norwegians that it's bokm?l.

What do you mean "keeps"? Bokm?l has no Wikipedia right now. no:
belongs to NORWEGIAN, not Bokm?l.

> This way we don't kill a well functioning wiki, and i belive/hope most
> parts would be happy with the solution.

When did I say anything about restricting usage on no:? Why would the
creation of a Wikipedia exclusively for Bokm?l content kill no:? It
would undoubtedly start out as a very small effort.

Mark


from_name: dwdwdwdw at fastmail.fm

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Abuse of his position as Administrator by WIKIPEDIA user
 Neutrality- not what the $50,000 was donated for.

body:
User is blocked
>From Wikipedia, the "free" encyclopedia.
You have attempted to edit a page, either by clicking the "edit
this page" tab or by following a red link.
Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Neutrality.
The reason given is this:
Maliciously acting in bad faith to disrupt Wikipedia
You can email Neutrality or one of the other administrators to
discuss the block. If you believe that our blocking policy was
violated, you may discuss the block publicly on the WikiEN-L
mailing list
(http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l).
If you would like to know when the block will expire, please see
the block list.
If you need to see the wiki text of an article, you may wish to
use the Export pages feature.
[edit]

Re the above - user Neutrality has blocked me with the lie
above, because he has a personal grudge against me. Also because
I gave two users who's efforts I admire Barnstars for their
endless patience. And because I corrected racist abuse against
my country and dared to list its name on The Wikipedia. He's
been mis-using his position as an Administrator from almost the
moment he got it. As others including Admins have complained.
It's a dirty lie that I have been "Maliciously acting in bad
faith to disrupt Wikipedia". I haven't disrupted anything in any
way. I've just spent about an hour sending a message of thanks,
ignoring "stalking etc." abuse from one of user Neutrality's
friends. And making responsible edits along with helpful
explanations as I always do.

This is a corrupt mis-use of the $50,000 that people so
generously donated recently in 10 days. I'll be writing about it
in the submission I'm giving to a Georgia University research
study about The Wikipedia and publicising user Neutrality's
dirty anti-American misuse of The Wikipedia on notice boards
around the world, (BBC's board etc.). The Wikipedia doesn't
deserve people to give their time and trouble to it with abusers
like "Neutrality" using it as their personal property to abuse
people. No wonder so many people have complained and left it in
disgust.

>From "blocked" "users" page:

"21:09, 13 Nov 2004, [1]Neutrality blocked #11140 (expires
21:09, 14 Nov 2004) (Autoblocked because your IP address has
been recently used by "[[User:WikiUser|WikiUser]]". The reason
given for WikiUser's block is: "'''Maliciously acting in bad
faith to disrupt Wikipedia'''".) "

References

1. file://localhost/wiki/User:Neutrality


subject: [WikiEN-l] Troll?

body:
Charles Matthews wrote:

>Ray Saintonge wrote
>
>
>>It allows for the fact that not all trolling is evil.
>>
>>
>Sez you.  Bad faith, if not 'evil', is still not to be condoned.
>
Of course bad faith trolling is not to be condoned, but the same can't
be said of good faith trolling when it succeeds in waking people up.

Ec


from_name: Lars Alvik

body:
P? 13. nov. 2004 kl. 07.59 skrev Mark Williamson:

> It can be summed up this way:
>
> Most Bokm?lites use no: for Bokm?l and nn: for Nynorsk.
> Most Nynorskians use no: for *both*, nb: for Bokm?l, and nn: for
> Nynorsk.
>
> The intention is that no: should apply to the "Norwegian language".
>
> Many (but by no means all) Bokm?lites despise Nynorsk (a Norwegian
> must be proficient in both forms in order to graduate), and see Bokm?l
> as "Norsk", THE Norwegian language, and Nynorsk as "Nynorsk", the
> Cinderella of the Scandinavian tongues (with the exception of those
> which are disputed, for example Jamskt, Scanian, Gutnish, etc. which
> some say are dialects and others say are languages, and Norn which is
> beyond this world), a unique Norwegian creation that to many
> Bokm?lites is more of an annoying pest than it is an object of
> linguistic nationalistic pride.
>
> Nynorskians, however, being a minority, see it slightly differently.
> Those who are passionate about Nynorsk may see Bokm?l as not Norwegian
> at all and Nynorsk as *the* Norwegian, but I think most Nynorsk users
> see both Bokm?l and Nynorsk as equally valid written varieties of the
> Norwegian language.
>
> A technical solution might be a bit difficult.
>
> I think the best idea is to create nb: paralell to no:. People can
> move those articles which are in Bokm?l, and ONLY Bokm?l will be
> allowed there. Pages on no: would continue to exist and new pages
> could be created, but...
>
> Anyhow, I do *not* think it is OK to change the language name for no:
> from "Norsk" to "Norsk (Bokm?l)", as it is NOT the Bokm?l Wikipedia.
>
> Mark

*Paints "POV" in huge red letters over Williamsons mail* Your mail have
inaccuancies to bokm?l and nynorsk, bokm?l people view nynorsk as a
pest? This goes both ways, the ones that mostly hates nynorsk (or
bokm?l) is teenagers that is forced to learn a different language in
school, that they don't feel they have any use for (unlike english or
perhaps german). Perhaps this "haterd" is stronger with the bokm?lusers
(since nynorsk is smaller and is, in their eyes, less useful).

Mr. Aasen made nynorsk by collecting dialects (dominantly the western
and the valleys in central-south norway. However the parts of norway
with the largest population was largely ignored, like the farming areas
of eastern norway, the south part of Oppland, Hedmark, Akershus,
?stfold, Buskerud and Vestfold) also the northern part of norway was
largely ignored. If you see this tabell from the norwegian censors
http://www.ssb.no/aarbok/tab/t-040220-183.html you can se that 519 528
of 610 297 norwegian elementary schoolstudents use bokm?l in school,
only in two fylker is there more nynorskstudents than bokm?lstudents,
in Sogn og Fjordane and M?re og Romsdal (the heartland of nynorsk, Mr.
Aasen was born in ?rsta in M?re og Romsdal). Historicaly the nynorsk
language gained ground during the last part of the 19th century and the
start of the 20th century when nationalromantism was the order of the
day and norway wanted to break up the union with sweden. It was the
same time that part of the norwegian history was romantized, the union
with denmark was seen as "the four thousandyear nigth", eventhough this
where directly false.

Yes, no: should point to the norwegian written language, but there are
none such thing. 80% of norwegians use bokm?l (allthough some of them
speaks a dialect that contains some nynorsk words, like -a endings
(these are allowed on bokm?l too). However, the languages are equal in
terms of administrative language. But on a national basis bokm?l is
more used.

btw. the paralell solution would kill the no: (informaly bokm?l) wiki.
And since most of the articles on no: is on either bokm?l or riksm?l,
some 100-200 on nynorsk (i've been rcpatroling on no: since we where
just ~800 articles, so i have a pretty good idea of the amount of
articles in either language. Knowing that a large part of this work
would fall on me i don't cherish this idea, and the fact that it's
creating a chaos, two rcs to monitor and a devertion of work. Also,
there are no bokm?l grasroot movement that wants to do this work, the
people that supports this solution is mostly nynorskusers (primary
nynorsk atleast).

I vote for a solution where bokm?l keeps no: (but creates a page with
reasons to why bokm?l have no:, that's going to get linked from the
mainpage, and "ads" for nynorskwiki), the interwiki decoding changes to
"norsk (bokm?l)" to clairify for non-norwegians that it's bokm?l.

This way we don't kill a well functioning wiki, and i belive/hope most
parts would be happy with the solution.

mvh. Lars Alvik


from_name: Corey Burger

subject: [Foundation-l] cross wiki user conflicts

body:
It occurs to me (and others) that a lot of users who are actually the same
person might have different email addresses in different accounts, are
thus are showing up as "different" people when we are checking. Thus I
propose that, in order to facilitate the move in SUL, we ask all users to
verify using kates tool that all their email addys are identical across
their accounts. I have just done so, and discovered I was using an
outdated one for my meta account.

Ideas?

Corey --


from_name: Daniel Kinzler

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: File Uploads: allow SVG, MIDI, etc

body:
Brion wrote:
> We have a heuristic check which attempts to match MSIE's heuristic test
> for HTML and rejects anything that matches. Hopefully it's good enough
> for that, though there may be other dangerous formats that it attempts
> to recognize, or other checks in the HTML heuristic which I might have
> missed.

ok... can I somhow help testing this?

> MSIE's MIME type "detection" (the process in which it throws away the
> server's specified content-type information and pulls a new one out of
> its butt in an unreliable, insecure manner) is partially documented  here:
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/networking/moniker/overview/
> appendix_a.asp

urg. und that page does *not* state *how* the detection works... more
guesswork :(

> MIDI is probably safe. It doesn't seem to be in IE's internally
> recognized list of types, so it shouldn't try to autodetect.

so *please* just enable it, ok?

> SVG is a more dangerous format; IIRC it explicitly allows for the use
> of JavaScript. Would you mind testing the main SVG-supporting browsers
> (particularly the Adobe SVG Viewer plug-in running in MSIE and Mozilla)
> to ensure that JavaScript in a SVG file can't access cookies or hijack
> the containing browser window?

Hmpf, that would require me to boot into windows;) Well, ok, i'll have a
look. Last time i checked javascript in SVG was specified but not really
supported.

Also, we could just scan any SVG and other XML-Formats for "<script" and
"javascript:" and deny all files that contain such a string. That's a
little crude, but would work for 99% i guess.

>> * when a file is uploaded, run "file -bi" against that file and
>> remember the output, which is (a pretty good guess of) the mime-type
>> of the file.
>
> MediaWiki can't generally rely on 'file' since it's an external
> program. It may not give consistent results on all platforms, and is
> completely absent on some (such as Windows). It's also known to fail to
> catch the MSIE holes, which can detect HTML on actual valid image  files.

Well, one could always make that check optional, so one could just
disable it on systems where it is not available. I belive cygwin
supplied a file command for windows, though. But the problem that file
may be "smarter" than MSIE remains, there you have a point.

>> * have a map of mime-types-to-file-extensions. Look up the mime-type
>> returned by file in that table. If it mismatches the file extension,
>> warn about it and refuse to upload. Skip the test if the mime-type is
>> not in the table.
>
> For known image types, we already check that the detected image type
> matches the extension.

good. Is it easy to extend the list of known mime/ext pairs?

>> If we are concerned about viruses in general, why not run a virus
>> scanner against every uploaded files? Uploads are not the frequent,
>> CPU should be able to cope with that.
>
> Mainly we're concerned about JavaScript session hijacking, but other
> problems are a concern as well. Feel free to whip up a wrapper around
> clamav or something, that might be useful...

OK, i'll have a look at it, it should be trivial enough. But i'll leave
the integration to you, because for me it would be a lot mor work to
find out where to put this than to write the funtion itself...

Thanks,
Daniel


subject: [Foundation-l] Project proposals on meta

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> NPOV also dictates that we do not give preference to any outside wiki
> hosting company. Why direct the Wikimedia community to wikicities.com and
> not myoo.de or wikidev.net, both of which are run by MediaWiki developers?
> I think a general note about wiki hosting on the talk page is more
> appropriate.

Of course I agree with this completely, as a matter of principle, but
I think it isn't so much NPOV that dictates this bit.  I do think we
can legitimately encourage people to use wiki hosting companies that
use MediaWiki (or at least some free software), even if this is not
NPOV.  Meta is not the encyclopedia, after all.

But obviously, recommending wikicities (which I own) preferentially,
is not something I would support.

Still, the rest of what Elian wrote I do think is a generally good
idea -- i.e., let's not just leave people hanging when some proposed
project is not consistent with our educational and NPOV mission.

--Jimbo


from_name: Victor Fariña

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki + phpBB ?

body:
Hi all ...
Well i am working on a simple solution on this way for my own
applications ...
The autehntication will be used to a LDAP Server , and when a user logs
in, a check
on the LDAP tree must be set to TRUE, them all applications using the
same LDAP
can find the user authenticated or not.

When a user signs in on an application, a LDAP attribute must be set to
TRUE.
and before sign in, the application must look for this attribute to see
if the user
are logged in.

I dont know PHPBB but iam sure it has a module to authenticate to a LDAP
server ...

regards

Bram de Jong - MTG wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
>
> (Hi! First post here)
>
> for a site I'm building I'm trying to use one generalised login system
> for everything on the site (forum / wiki / ftp / ...). I was wondering
> if anyone has done any work on joining phpBB and MediaWiki.
>
> In a perfect world people would log into PhpBB and an account would be
> made for MediaWiki with the same login/pass. Whenever a user logs into
> the site, he should automatically be logged into MediaWiki.
>
> So - has it been done? Google didn't really help me this time.
>
>
> thanks a lot,
>
>
>  - bram
>

--
Problems with Windows - Reboot.
Problems with Linux   - Be root.

Vic (aKa CoffMan)
vic at wickle.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pi-eyed

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> It's true that you could make minor changes to formatting, but those
> changes do not provide enough benefit to counteract the waste of time
> and resources caused by vandalism.

I totally agree and I think what Angela said is valid here as well:
this type of page isn't all that suited for a wiki, so we should have
really no qualms about just protecting the page and being done with
it.

I'd say the same thing about a *lot* of things on wikisource.  At some
point fairly early in the development of a source article, protection
is a wise option.  Probably the protection message should make it very
clear to people that if they have a real change to make, the article
can easily be unprotected.

But it seems silly for anyone to have to pull their hair out fighting
vandalism on a page that *could not possibly* be improved anyway,
because it is already accurate.

--Jimbo


from_name: James R. Johnson

body:
Along those lines, as far as I know, in the English wiki, if you're
discussing British politics, issues, etc., then you use British English and
spelling, and American issues use America spelling and rules, and so on for
Australian, etc.  Is there some way to do such a thing with Nynorsk and
Bokmal?

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of ilooy
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:58 PM
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: no or nb for Bokmal,or time to move to ISO
639-3?

Maybe this is a silly thought...
But couldn't both forms of the language coexist
as in a "samnorsk" implementation of the language
at least in Wikipedia?

The differences between Nynorsk and Bokmal seem
not too different from Mexican, Argentine and Central
Spanish forms of Castilian. Also when considering
Brazilian and European forms of Portuguese the
difference seems greater in pronunciation and style
than that experienced between Nynorsk and Bookmal
at least in my understanding of the situation.

So why couldn't there be a "Samnorsk" Coexistence
between the Norwegian flavors of the language of
Norway... I know the political issues involved may be
too much for a simple discussion of the linguistic
problems involved, but couldn't a Norwegian wikipedia
take as an example the Spanish and Portuguese wikis?

With naive regards,
Jay B.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:46:43 +0100, Lars Alvik <larsal at stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
> P? 13. nov. 2004 kl. 07.59 skrev Mark Williamson:
>
> > It can be summed up this way:
> >
> > Most Bokm?lites use no: for Bokm?l and nn: for Nynorsk.
> > Most Nynorskians use no: for *both*, nb: for Bokm?l, and nn: for
> > Nynorsk.
> >
> > The intention is that no: should apply to the "Norwegian language".
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Marcus Schießer

subject: [Foundation-l] wiki based market place

body:
Hi folks,

as part of my master thesis I developed a wiki based product catalogue /
marketplace. Using it you can build a browsable and searchable catalogue
of goods and services, make comments on them, sell stuff and so on.
Source code is available under the GPL and the wiki database under the FDL.
Now I am looking for all kinds of people who want to participate -
developers, product describers, dealers and consumers. Also I would like
to discuss possible cooperation with the wikipedia project. All of you
may contact me for any concern.
At that time, the market place is available at:
http://market.prag053.server4you.de
for some sample products, please go to "Browse - Page 2 -
Telecommunication - Mobile - Siemens".

Have fun using it,

Marcus


subject: [Foundation-l] wiki based market place


subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR policy change

body:
I am personally endorsing and promoting a proposal that the 3 Revert
Rule be enforced.  The exact wording of the proposal is:

        If you violate the 3 revert rule, sysops may block you for up
to 24 hours.
        In the cases where both parties violate the rule, sysops
should treat both sides equally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Three_revert_rule_enforcement

I encourage everyone to vote.  I actually even encourage you to vote
yes.  This is a long overdue change, and I believe there is strong
community consensus for it.  After the poll is finalized, I will back
it fully.

I discussed the exact wording with several people, and have discussed
the revert rule generally with a lot of people, even some of the worst
violators.  I don't think we'll have much problem getting this passed
quickly.

--Jimbo

--
"La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

body:
Hello,

There are a lot of project proposals floating around on Meta-Wiki, most
only short descriptions of an idea someone had. Some months ago, I
collected all this stuff and moved it to a central page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Proposals_for_new_projects

More can be found in:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Proposed_projects

Since many people complained to me about Meta being an unusable
labyrinth, I'd like to do a little bit of cleanup and wondered if we
could just move this list to wikicities (jimbo's pet project where
people can set up wikis on their own) and direct new entries on meta of
the type "oh there is no wiki on ... what about ...?" to wikicities:
http://www.wikicities.com/index.php/Proposed_wikis

We will be busy the next time with building up Commons and Wikinews, the
two big new projects and for most proposals on this page I either don't
see a future as a Wikimedia project (at least not in this state) or they
could be done within the framework of an existing project.

What do you think?

greetings,
elian


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] MultiHosting from single source

body:
On Nov 13, 2004, at 8:21 PM, Mark Constable wrote:
> Hi all, I am wondering if there is any interest in some mods
> to enhance MediaWikis ability to be multi-hosted from a
> single core of code ?

There's some documentation on how we have things set up at Wikipedia
here:
http://wp.wikidev.net/Wiki_farm

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Troll?

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote

>It allows for the fact that not all trolling is evil.

Sez you.  Bad faith, if not 'evil', is still not to be condoned.

Charles


body:
Elisabeth-
> Since many people complained to me about Meta being an unusable
> labyrinth, I'd like to do a little bit of cleanup and wondered if we
> could just move this list to wikicities (jimbo's pet project where
> people can set up wikis on their own) and direct new entries on meta of
> the type "oh there is no wiki on ... what about ...?" to wikicities:
> http://www.wikicities.com/index.php/Proposed_wikis

No, please don't do that. While I like Wikicities, I want Wikimedia itself
to be and remain at the forefront of exploring new and innovative uses of
wikis. Discussion is a large part of that. I agree that many of the
proposals will not have a future as separate projects, but for most of the
useful ones, I see potential for integration into existing ones. Instead
of encouraging separate projects, we should systematically explore how to
integrate good ideas into the Wikimedia framework. What cannot happen
today may very well happen tomorrow.

NPOV also dictates that we do not give preference to any outside wiki
hosting company. Why direct the Wikimedia community to wikicities.com and
not myoo.de or wikidev.net, both of which are run by MediaWiki developers?
I think a general note about wiki hosting on the talk page is more
appropriate.

In short, I strongly oppose moving this talk page out of Meta, and even
more strongly to move it to a specific hosting company.

Regards,

Erik


body:
P? 13. nov. 2004 kl. 21.19 skrev Mark Williamson:

> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:46:43 +0100, Lars Alvik <larsal at stud.ntnu.no>
> wrote:
>> P? 13. nov. 2004 kl. 07.59 skrev Mark Williamson:
>>
>>
>>
>>> It can be summed up this way:
>>>
>>> Most Bokm?lites use no: for Bokm?l and nn: for Nynorsk.
>>> Most Nynorskians use no: for *both*, nb: for Bokm?l, and nn: for
>>> Nynorsk.
>>>
>>> The intention is that no: should apply to the "Norwegian language".
>>>
>>> Many (but by no means all) Bokm?lites despise Nynorsk (a Norwegian
>>> must be proficient in both forms in order to graduate), and see
>>> Bokm?l
>>> as "Norsk", THE Norwegian language, and Nynorsk as "Nynorsk", the
>>> Cinderella of the Scandinavian tongues (with the exception of those
>>> which are disputed, for example Jamskt, Scanian, Gutnish, etc. which
>>> some say are dialects and others say are languages, and Norn which is
>>> beyond this world), a unique Norwegian creation that to many
>>> Bokm?lites is more of an annoying pest than it is an object of
>>> linguistic nationalistic pride.
>>>
>>> Nynorskians, however, being a minority, see it slightly differently.
>>> Those who are passionate about Nynorsk may see Bokm?l as not
>>> Norwegian
>>> at all and Nynorsk as *the* Norwegian, but I think most Nynorsk users
>>> see both Bokm?l and Nynorsk as equally valid written varieties of the
>>> Norwegian language.
>>>
>>> A technical solution might be a bit difficult.
>>>
>>> I think the best idea is to create nb: paralell to no:. People can
>>> move those articles which are in Bokm?l, and ONLY Bokm?l will be
>>> allowed there. Pages on no: would continue to exist and new pages
>>> could be created, but...
>>>
>>> Anyhow, I do *not* think it is OK to change the language name for no:
>>> from "Norsk" to "Norsk (Bokm?l)", as it is NOT the Bokm?l Wikipedia.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>
>> *Paints "POV" in huge red letters over Williamsons mail* Your mail
>> have
>> inaccuancies to bokm?l and nynorsk, bokm?l people view nynorsk as a
>> pest? This goes both ways, the ones that mostly hates nynorsk (or
>> bokm?l) is teenagers that is forced to learn a different language in
>> school, that they don't feel they have any use for (unlike english or
>> perhaps german). Perhaps this "haterd" is stronger with the
>> bokm?lusers
>> (since nynorsk is smaller and is, in their eyes, less useful).
>
> Inaccuracies? Such as what? I said "many", not "all". Please, read
> carefully before falsely accusing me of such things.

It was the entire mail, it's POV, not just one sentence.

>
>> Mr. Aasen made nynorsk by collecting dialects (dominantly the western
>> and the valleys in central-south norway. However the parts of norway
>> with the largest population was largely ignored, like the farming
>> areas
>> of eastern norway, the south part of Oppland, Hedmark, Akershus,
>> ?stfold, Buskerud and Vestfold) also the northern part of norway was
>> largely ignored. If you see this tabell from the norwegian censors
>> http://www.ssb.no/aarbok/tab/t-040220-183.html you can se that 519 528
>> of 610 297 norwegian elementary schoolstudents use bokm?l in school,
>> only in two fylker is there more nynorskstudents than bokm?lstudents,
>> in Sogn og Fjordane and M?re og Romsdal (the heartland of nynorsk, Mr.
>> Aasen was born in ?rsta in M?re og Romsdal). Historicaly the nynorsk
>> language gained ground during the last part of the 19th century and
>> the
>> start of the 20th century when nationalromantism was the order of the
>> day and norway wanted to break up the union with sweden. It was the
>> same time that part of the norwegian history was romantized, the union
>> with denmark was seen as "the four thousandyear nigth", eventhough
>> this
>> where directly false.
>
> What is your point here? I know the figures as regards what %age of
> Norwegian schoolchildren choose which. In addition, from what I have
> heard, both Landsm?l and Riksm?l have been polluted over the years by
> official government policies aimed at uniting them, the current result
> is modern Nynorsk and Bokm?l which aren't as different (another thing
> is that some forms were introduced as "optional", but when you use
> them the two are closer).

The point is how many people that accualy use bokm?l, compared to
nynorsk (with all due respect to nynorsk. And it was the only reliable
statistic here.
The samnorsk policy where ditched in the 1950'ies. Moderate bokm?l and
moderate nynorsk isn't that far from each other. But most people writes
either one or the other, not the middle.

>
>> Yes, no: should point to the norwegian written language, but there are
>> none such thing. 80% of norwegians use bokm?l (allthough some of them
>> speaks a dialect that contains some nynorsk words, like -a endings
>> (these are allowed on bokm?l too). However, the languages are equal in
>> terms of administrative language. But on a national basis bokm?l is
>> more used.
>
> I know that. I know that, too. So what if Bokm?l is more widely used?
> Hooray for Bokm?l. But that doesn't change the fact that BOTH are
> equally valid ways of writing Norwegian. It doesn't somehow give
> Bokm?l a claim to being THE "Norsk" (and thus the no: code).

De facto, not de jure, that's the reason for the page explaining this.

>> btw. the paralell solution would kill the no: (informaly bokm?l) wiki.
>> And since most of the articles on no: is on either bokm?l or riksm?l,
>> some 100-200 on nynorsk (i've been rcpatroling on no: since we where
>> just ~800 articles, so i have a pretty good idea of the amount of
>> articles in either language. Knowing that a large part of this work
>> would fall on me i don't cherish this idea, and the fact that it's
>> creating a chaos, two rcs to monitor and a devertion of work. Also,
>> there are no bokm?l grasroot movement that wants to do this work, the
>> people that supports this solution is mostly nynorskusers (primary
>> nynorsk atleast).
>
> How would it kill it? Most likely growth at nb: would be very slow,
> and 99% of the users would stay at no:.
>
> If you think no: should be labelled "Bokm?l"... how would you feel if
> I went and wrote 10000 new, non-stub articles in Nynorsk for no:? It
> must be stressed that no: is NOT the Bokm?l Wikipedia and it SHOULD
> NOT BECOME the Bokm?l Wikipedia - it is the Norsk Wikipedia.
> Regardless of the ratio (which you are slightly exaggerating, I think
> it's more like 1:10 and not 1:100 like you say), even if there are
> only 11 pages in Nynorsk, it is the Norsk Wikipedia, belonging to all
> Norwegian languages (Oh no... I didn't mean to say that... I take it
> back... if people started writing articles at no: in S?mi, things
> would quickly descend into chaos).

The ratio is true, just look at the statistics,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/DA/TablesWikipediaNO.htm , the 8 "top
contributers" is bokm?l/riksm?lusers, the 9th is nynorsk user, but have
written mostly on bokm?l. Perhaps it's even worse than 1:100. If you
accualy know nynorsk (no machinetranslated crap) you are free to write
10 000 non stubs on no:, i would accualy been deligthed, it would be a
real boost.

>> I vote for a solution where bokm?l keeps no: (but creates a page with
>> reasons to why bokm?l have no:, that's going to get linked from the
>> mainpage, and "ads" for nynorskwiki), the interwiki decoding changes
>> to
>> "norsk (bokm?l)" to clairify for non-norwegians that it's bokm?l.
>
> What do you mean "keeps"? Bokm?l has no Wikipedia right now. no:
> belongs to NORWEGIAN, not Bokm?l.

De facto man, de facto. The user interface, among other things are also
in bokm?l

>> This way we don't kill a well functioning wiki, and i belive/hope most
>> parts would be happy with the solution.
>
> When did I say anything about restricting usage on no:? Why would the
> creation of a Wikipedia exclusively for Bokm?l content kill no:? It
> would undoubtedly start out as a very small effort.

Diversion of users, forking the language. Most people would still go on
writing to the no: wiki, it's a de facto bokm?l wiki.

I would also recommend you to read Lars Aronsens mail in this thread.

Mvh. Lars Alvik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Troll?

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote

> Of course bad faith trolling is not to be condoned, but the same can't
> be said of good faith trolling when it succeeds in waking people up.

Ray, troll-folk are not slow to make this argument for themselves.  I hardly
think this list needs its complacency undermined, or whatever you think
you're doing with this special pleading.  It is wretched stuff.

Charles


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Elisabeth-
>
>>Since many people complained to me about Meta being an unusable
>>labyrinth, I'd like to do a little bit of cleanup and wondered if we
>>could just move this list to wikicities (jimbo's pet project where
>>people can set up wikis on their own) and direct new entries on meta of
>>the type "oh there is no wiki on ... what about ...?" to wikicities:
>>http://www.wikicities.com/index.php/Proposed_wikis
>
> No, please don't do that. While I like Wikicities, I want Wikimedia itself
> to be and remain at the forefront of exploring new and innovative uses of
> wikis. Discussion is a large part of that.

Most of there proposals weren't discussed at all, but just thrown -
often anonymously - on meta and left there for good, mostly orphaned.
Seriously, I don't see us setting up more than a handful new projects in
the near future: Wikinews and later maybe Wikiversity and Wikijunior.

> I agree that many of the
> proposals will not have a future as separate projects, but for most of the
> useful ones, I see potential for integration into existing ones. Instead
> of encouraging separate projects, we should systematically explore how to
> integrate good ideas into the Wikimedia framework. What cannot happen
> today may very well happen tomorrow.

Now, then do it ;-) Start with
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Slotipedia_-_A_Proposal
and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikindex ?

> NPOV also dictates that we do not give preference to any outside wiki
> hosting company. Why direct the Wikimedia community to wikicities.com and
> not myoo.de or wikidev.net, both of which are run by MediaWiki developers?

IMO NPOV policy is meant for the content of Wikimedia projects, but you
are certainly right that we shouldn't give any preference to an outside
project.

> I think a general note about wiki hosting on the talk page is more
> appropriate.

This seems like a good idea, I modified the intro on the proposals page
accordingly.

We should probably communicate better what Wikimedia is about - spread
of knowledge and not wiki hosting for any cool idea in general.

greetings,
elian


from_name: Steven Melenchuk

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Abuse of his position as Administrator by WIKIPEDIA
	user Neutrality- not what the $50,000 was donated for.

body:
If Neutrality blocked you, it appears to me that he has every reason to
have done so. Making edits with summaries such as "_//Opposed nazi
censorship and anti-semitism of users here//_" and "Answered nazi
abuser" as well as extremely controversial edits to articles such as
[[England]] which are opposed by community consensus and continuing to
make them agaist consensus - in addition to opnely supporting Rex071404
and Irismeister, users against whom extensive arbcom cases have been
made for repeated violations of Wikipedia's civility and "no personal
attacks" policies, for reasons on which a consensus has been reached as
to their invalidity - generally do not reflect well on a person and his
ability to work with Wikipedia (all of the above can be found in
WikiUser's contribution list) and can rightfully be interpreted as "bad
faith" and "disruptive". I've never encountered you before, so if you
would like to explain the reasoning behind some of these edits you've
made, please do, but until then I think it can safely be said that
Neutrality's actions were in the interests of Wikipedia as a whole.

I await your defence to the above with interest.

~Grunt (Steven Melenchuk)

dwdwdwdw at fastmail.fm wrote:

>User is blocked
>>From Wikipedia, the "free" encyclopedia.
>You have attempted to edit a page, either by clicking the "edit
>this page" tab or by following a red link.
>Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Neutrality.
>The reason given is this:
>Maliciously acting in bad faith to disrupt Wikipedia
>You can email Neutrality or one of the other administrators to
>discuss the block. If you believe that our blocking policy was
>violated, you may discuss the block publicly on the WikiEN-L
>mailing list
>(http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l).
>If you would like to know when the block will expire, please see
>the block list.
>If you need to see the wiki text of an article, you may wish to
>use the Export pages feature.
>[edit]
>
>Re the above - user Neutrality has blocked me with the lie
>above, because he has a personal grudge against me. Also because
>I gave two users who's efforts I admire Barnstars for their
>endless patience. And because I corrected racist abuse against
>my country and dared to list its name on The Wikipedia. He's
>been mis-using his position as an Administrator from almost the
>moment he got it. As others including Admins have complained.
>It's a dirty lie that I have been "Maliciously acting in bad
>faith to disrupt Wikipedia". I haven't disrupted anything in any
>way. I've just spent about an hour sending a message of thanks,
>ignoring "stalking etc." abuse from one of user Neutrality's
>friends. And making responsible edits along with helpful
>explanations as I always do.
>
>This is a corrupt mis-use of the $50,000 that people so
>generously donated recently in 10 days. I'll be writing about it
>in the submission I'm giving to a Georgia University research
>study about The Wikipedia and publicising user Neutrality's
>dirty anti-American misuse of The Wikipedia on notice boards
>around the world, (BBC's board etc.). The Wikipedia doesn't
>deserve people to give their time and trouble to it with abusers
>like "Neutrality" using it as their personal property to abuse
>people. No wonder so many people have complained and left it in
>disgust.
>
>>From "blocked" "users" page:
>
>"21:09, 13 Nov 2004, [1]Neutrality blocked #11140 (expires
>21:09, 14 Nov 2004) (Autoblocked because your IP address has
>been recently used by "[[User:WikiUser|WikiUser]]". The reason
>given for WikiUser's block is: "'''Maliciously acting in bad
>faith to disrupt Wikipedia'''".) "
>
>References
>
>1. file://localhost/wiki/User:Neutrality
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Troll?

body:
Charles Matthews wrote:

>Ray Saintonge wrote
>
>
>>Of course bad faith trolling is not to be condoned, but the same can't
>>be said of good faith trolling when it succeeds in waking people up.
>>
>>
>Ray, troll-folk are not slow to make this argument for themselves.  I hardly
>think this list needs its complacency undermined, or whatever you think
>you're doing with this special pleading.  It is wretched stuff.
>
>
I agree that fisherman are competent at baiting their hooks.  I would
never have taken the participants on this list to be complacent; if
anything, they have a tendency for the other extreme.  We're full of
Humpty Dumptys whose words mean exactly what they choose them to mean -
neither more nor less.   I would not consider my consideration of a word
to be so lofty as to require "special" pleading.  If a pleading it be, I
would think it more properly directed to the pleasures of language, and
to an appreciation of the subtleties that light a contrary meaning in a
sky of darkness.  "Wretched," yes.  It is important to be charitable
towa\rd those wallowing hippo wretches on the litoral of the litteral
sea. :-)

Ec


body:
Hello again.

I have put online a proof of concept version of a file varification
mechanism. the details:

I have played around with the adobe svg plugin a bit (Version 3.01 /
FireFox 1.0PR / Linux). It seems that JavaScript is supported, but does
not have access to the HTML-DOM, which is good. I thought about trying
this in MSIE, but then i thought some more...

Basically, this leaves us with the situation that JavaScript in SVG is
as secure as JavaScript in HTML - it isn't. So the solution would be IMHO to

a) reject all files that (somhow) look like HTML.
b) reject all files that (somhow) contain javascript.
c) scan all uploaded files for viruses.

I have put up a crude prototype of such a checker:

    http://area23.brightbyte.de/checkfile-test.php

The source is available there, but would need some modifications to be
integrated into mediawiki (i guess - i have never looked into the
source, and i don't  plan to). To discuss what i have done here, please
go to

    http://de.wikipedia.org/w/wiki/Benutzer:Duesentrieb/checkfile

I hope you like it and it's not to hard to put it in. It would be
extremely helpful if we could again upload "obscure" things like MIDI
and SVG to the Wikipedia.

tnx,
daniel