from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
The articles would be complementary, each prominently linked to the other at
the top of the page.

Fred

> From: Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:39:57 +0100
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: every disputed article to end up with multiple
> versions....
>
> Daniel P.B.Smith wrote:
>
>>> Isn't that just going to wedge the door open for every disputed
>>> article to
>>> end up with multiple versions?
>>
>> Well, what would be so terrible about that?
>
> In addition to what Daniel Mayer already said: What's also wrong with
> that is that a visitor trying to find information on a particular topic
> shouldn't have to make up their mind on which article to consult. In
> particular, they shouldn't have to be faced with multiple articles that
> contain contradictory information.
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Nathan Hamblen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Alt-B

references:
<pan.2004.06.08.12.30.14.532128@arvin.dk>	<ca4qvk$jsu$1@sea.gmane.org>	<shu0xlhq8p.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>	<ca5fid$87n$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<40C651EC.2080308@hackish.org>

body:
Delirium wrote:
> Timwi wrote:
> No, "Select All" is Alt+A, not Ctrl+A, and the website currently
> overrides it, which is quite irritating.  This is using Firefox 0.8
> under Linux.  Perhaps it is Ctrl+A under other operating systems, which
> is the source of the confusion?

How accesskeys are implemented, including whether or not they override
existing shortcuts, is up to the browser. There are several bugs open
surrounding Firefox's accesskeys, for several different OSes. (On Mac it
seems accesskeys do not override Firefox shortcuts.) It's in Firefox and
other browsers that conflicts need to be sorted out, not on websites
providing accesskeys.

My only complaint is that site says ?Alt A?, etc,  when accesskeys can
in fact be implemented with any modifier. On Firefox Mac the default is
ctrl. (I don't have any better ideas, though. Really, again, it should
probably be the browser's job to tell me what the accesskeys + modifiers
are for a page. In the mean time, I'm happy with it saying alt since
that is the most common modifier.)

Nathan


list: wikien-l

from_name: Bill

subject: [WikiEN-l] That city in northern Europe

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> There is a city in northern Europe called Danzig by Germans and Gdansk
> by Poles. Both words have "Dan" as a common element.

[...]

> We also noted that the placement of the article at
> www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig or at www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdansk should
> NOT be taken as "official recognition" of one name or the other -- but
> be based purely on however English-speaking people primarily refer to
> the city.

Eliminating domains ending in ".de", Google gives:

   Gdansk: 414,000
   Danzig: 420,000

Since the German version of the name is "Danzig" it seems unfair to
include .de results when trying to analyze "English" practice.

So using this as a measure, Danzig wins.  Nevertheless, the city is
currently a Polish city.  And the Polish version of the name is well
known, at least on ~English speaking Web, as good a measure as any.  I
think this is a strong argument for using Gdansk as entry-point on the
English wikipedia.

I am an American of German heritage.

Bill


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: Summary style (was Re: [WikiEN-l] Response to Bryan Derken)

body:
Abe Sokolov wrote:

> maveric149 at yahoo.com:
>
> "The ability to write good summaries is a rarer trait than the ability
> to write at length on a subject. Let those who can summarize help
> improve the article series by making it useful to people who don't
> want to read for an hour."
>
> Are you saying that I can't. FYI, I've written dozens of brief
> articles on broad subjects too. I just don't list them on my user page
> because I don't want to give stalkers a guidebook.

I would prefer to take Mav's statement at the face value of a generality
without any implicit criticism of you or anybody else.  Personalizing
somebody's general comments is not very encouraging for interwikipedian
relations. O:-)

Ec


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/stylesheets wikibits.js,
	1.34, 1.35

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> Log Message:
> Reworked css include/pref/tooltip/accesskey subsystem
>
> * accesskeys and tooltips moved to js, needs to be
> customized/localized at MediaWiki:Monobook.js. Saves many calls to
> wfMsg, reduces page size, shows access key prefix depending on
> browser/os. Easy to customize by changing the ta array.

Most of the access keys no longer work with JavaScript disabled. This is
puzzling, as it seems to defeat the 'accessibility' part. Is this
intentional?

(However many of the keys need to be changed in the first place due to
conflicts with existing browser shortcut keys as outlined in my earlier
post on the subject.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: foundation-l

from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Fundraising

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Where did the extra money come from (roughly)? The statements you gave me
> indicated there was about 200 bucks in the bank account as of early May.

$9000+, I do not have the exact figure handy but approximately that,
is the refund on geoffrin from Penguin computing.  It had not arrived when
I left St. Petersburg, but I was assured that it had been charged back
and so it should be there now.  I will check as soon as I am able, but
I am confident about it.

--Jimbo


list: wikimedia-l


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/stylesheets	wikibits.js,
	1.34, 1.35

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 11:27 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
>>Most of the access keys no longer work with JavaScript disabled. This is
>>puzzling, as it seems to defeat the 'accessibility' part. Is this
>>intentional?
>
> Yes. Acessibility doesn't necessarily mean no javascript. Afaik all
> common screenreaders i know of use js (they are based on IE), the
> ability to change the access keys will be useful to disabled users as
> well.

You can change them in JavaScript *after* they're set to defaults in the
HTML. Shall we change all the "http://foo" URLs to
"javascript:document.location='http://foo'"? After all, accessibility
only means blind people using JavaScript, right! Sigh........

>>(However many of the keys need to be changed in the first place due to
>>conflicts with existing browser shortcut keys as outlined in my earlier
>>post on the subject.)
>
> Go ahead, make a proposal or edit MediaWiki:Monobook.js. Hope the result
> isn't completely impossible to remember.

Thanks for your sympathy.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Problems with the AC evidence template

body:
KNOTT, T wrote:

>Could more eloquent people than myself (especially members of the
>AC)take a look at the discussion on this page and try to come up with a
>wording to the template that doesn't confuse people.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Mr-
>Natural-Health/Evidence
>
>So far two people have thought that
>
> "only complainants can edit this section"
>
>means that only the person who originally requested arbitration is
>allowed to add evidence. The template needs to be reworded to make it
>clear that it only means that the accused and their supported are
>supposed to respond elsewhere, but I just can't think of how to put it.
>
>
I don't think that the problem is limited to this particular complaint,
but I coldn't be sure of where to find the "template" referenced in the
message.

Taking the quoted comment literally I would agree with the
interpretation placed by the two people.  It seems as though you want
two separate pages.  These might be "Evidence supporting the complaint"
and "Evidence supporting the defence".

Ec


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Theresa Robinson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] The wiki software is written for wikipedia

body:
> Take for instance those lines that are "gratis" when you use headings.
> They make excellent sense when in Wikipedia but they look _horrible_ in
> wiktionary. Have a look at http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Breton for
> instance. It does not look good.

I'm a little unclear on what you perceive to be wrong with this page.  It
looks fine to me.

moink


body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

>There are several things "wrong".
>
>*There is one diliberate line to distinguish the meaning of the word in two
>languages; Engels & Frans. This line does not serve its purpose
>*Because of the heading the word itself Engels & Frans are underlined _and_
>they get a line from front to back.
>
>It just does not look good.
>
This appears to be an aesthetic issue relating to the layout of the
page.  It is not for us who don't speak Dutch to get involved with
this.  Each Wiktionary will approach the matter in a manner suitable to
its own users.

Ec


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS]	phase3/stylesheets	wikibits.js,
	1.34, 1.35

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 12:14 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
>>You can change them in JavaScript *after* they're set to defaults in the
>>HTML. Shall we change all the "http://foo" URLs to
>>"javascript:document.location='http://foo'"? After all, accessibility
>>only means blind people using JavaScript, right! Sigh........
>
>
> Not quite the same thing, is it? An access key that's completely
> unintuitive can be as inaccessible as one that collides with another one
> set by the browser/os

I don't think we're communicating here. :)

An access key that you don't know about will just not do anything until
you know it's there. Once you know about it, it's a helpful addition.

An access key that conflicts with preexisting keyboard shortcuts *that
one is already using* is a big big problem: it actively interferes with
the user's ability to work with the application.

This is why the conflicting defaults must be changed; they are very
damaging to usability. If you don't do it, I will.

> or one that has a misleading 'alt-x' label instead
> of a the proper 'shift-esc-x' for the opera browser somebody's using.
> Which are the users that will have a problem with this setup?

The labels are a separate issue from the existence of the access keys.
Misleading labels are quite obviously bad, and it's better that the
labels be set *correctly* via JavaScript instead of using hardcoded
*incorrect* labels.

Having *no labels* (but the access keys being listed prominently in the
editing help and the site's accessibility statement) would also be
acceptable. This would be the natural state with JavaScript disabled if
the accesskeys were being set in the HTML (as they were until recently).

> I added all those access keys and tooltips in 1.3, and only in the
> PHPTal skin. The 'standard', 'nostalgia' and 'cologneblue' skins don't
> have these access keys at all, i'd say practically no access keys are a
> bigger problem than user-configurable ones set from js with helpful
> labels.

Do you then agree that the access keys should work even if JavaScript is
disabled or unavailable?

Accessibility isn't just about adding alt tags for the blind; it's about
not unnecessarily cutting people off from or complicating their usage of
your site. Anyone who hasn't already, I highly recommend reading Mark
Pilgrim's 'Dive Into Accessibility': http://diveintoaccessibility.org/

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] That city in northern Europe

body:
Bill wrote:

> So using this as a measure, Danzig wins. Nevertheless, the city is
> currently a Polish city. And the Polish version of the name is well
> known, at least on ~English speaking Web, as good a measure as any. I
> think this is a strong argument for using Gdansk as entry-point on the
> English wikipedia.

I think this is generally agreed on by most of the people who've been
discussing the issue on the talk page, but there are some extreme Polish
nationalists who still profess to be offended by the use of "Danzig" at
all. The article that led to the current round of disagreements was
located at [[Gdansk]], and started with:

'''Gdan'sk''' (in English formerly known as '''Danzig''') is a [[Baltic
Sea]] city with a long and colorful history. Gdan'sk is the 6th largest
city in [[Poland]], its principal [[seaport]], and the capital of the
[[Pomeranian Voivodship]].

That seems like a reasonable compromise to me. However, it was claimed
that "in English formerly known as Danzig" was an offensive statement
catering to German colonial oppression, or something of that sort. At
this point I consider these nationalists on both sides to not be worth
arguing with, and would appreciate if they were banned summarily from
editing relevant articles.

-Mark


from_name: Mark Richards

subject:
Throw the book at them (was Re: [WikiEN-l] That city in northern
	Europe)

body:
Repeatedly posting reverts without discussion is
perhpas the worst concievable crime on a collaborative
project. Throw the book at anyone who does this. Mark
R.

--- Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> Delirium wrote:
>
> > At this point I consider these nationalists on
> both sides to not be
> > worth arguing with, and would appreciate if they
> were banned summarily
> > from editing relevant articles.
>
> In a more pensive mood, I might rephrase this as:
>
> "I would support banning users who repeatedly make
> controversial edits
> to a long-running controversial page without
> discussing on the article
> talk page, even after being warned on their user
> talk page."
>
> If they're anonymous users I think it should be fine
> to ban them
> summarily for such behavior, especially since I
> suspect many are simply
> reincarnations of the same person.
>
> -Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/


subject: [WikiEN-l] That city in northern Europe

body:
Delirium wrote:

> At this point I consider these nationalists on both sides to not be
> worth arguing with, and would appreciate if they were banned summarily
> from editing relevant articles.

In a more pensive mood, I might rephrase this as:

"I would support banning users who repeatedly make controversial edits
to a long-running controversial page without discussing on the article
talk page, even after being warned on their user talk page."

If they're anonymous users I think it should be fine to ban them
summarily for such behavior, especially since I suspect many are simply
reincarnations of the same person.

-Mark


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Alt-B

body:
Delirium wrote:

> No, "Select All" is Alt+A, not Ctrl+A, and the website currently
> overrides it, which is quite irritating.  This is using Firefox 0.8
> under Linux.  Perhaps it is Ctrl+A under other operating systems, which
> is the source of the confusion?

Brion mentioned that you're talking about "Select All" in a textfield,
not the website. In such a case, I always use Ctrl+Home,
Ctrl+Shift+End... :-p

> (FWIW, other direct keyboard shortcuts in Firefox's default bindings
> under Linux involving Alt include Alt-leftarrow [back], Alt-rightarrow
> [forward], and Alt-home [go to homepage], and probably some others I'm
> missing in my quick scan of the menus).

None of those are overridable by websites.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: small template & furigana

body:
Makoto & Guillaume wrote:

> // this mail use UTF-8 format //

So? :-)

> Can you please remove the "5 same template per page" limit for small
> templates?

Whoa. I didn't know such a thing existed. Why is it a problem to have
many copies of the *same* template on one page? You only need to load it
once.

Timwi


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re:	[MediaWiki-CVS]	phase3/stylesheets	wikibits.js,
	1.34, 1.35

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 13:53 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
>>This is why the conflicting defaults must be changed; they are very
>>damaging to usability. If you don't do it, I will.
>
> Can you propose new default assignments? Im not objecting to avoiding
> keys like a (select all on moz linux), but we should try to find a more
> meaningful choice than '2' or similar.

I already provided a list of keys to avoid. Why don't you see what's
left and make some recommendations from that that you'd like?

> Which users do you have in mind here? I imagine there are very few
> disabled users using lynx for their daily browsing needs. Imo
> accessibility is not about textbooks, it's about making good decisions
> with the disabled, but also with the average user in mind. That's the
> gist of the WCAG and section 508 as far as i understand them.

Exactly what I've been saying! That's why I don't understand why you
keep talking about blind people and screenreaders and why I don't
understand why you refuse to remove the usability-destroying shortcuts
that are in there now.

>>Do you then agree that the access keys should work even if JavaScript is
>>disabled or unavailable?
>
> The most important ones do (p, s). We could re-add some other important
> ones, but i don't agree that this is a high priority. The problem with
> having both would be maintenance- the keys would need to be
> updated/changed in two places- Monobook.js and acceskey-xy.

That shouldn't be necessary. Why won't the master data carry through?

 > The ~80
> saved calls to wfMsg per page view

80 calls to wfMsg sound very inefficient. Why not use one?

 > and the reduced page source size are
> also important for accessibility- a slow/timing out wikipedia is not
> accessible at all.

Reduced page source size? 'accesskey="x" ' is 14 bytes including space.
And, we gzip the output, so that'll reduce further.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Distributed image / media file hosting

body:
T_Karcher at gmx.de wrote:

> With more and more images and large media files on the rise, we could
> noticeably reduce the server load by distributing these files.
>
> How? Well, first we'd need some (5 to 10?) mirrors willing to sync their
> data on a daily basis.

I thought we had discussed this before. It was decided that it would
make way more sense to use a ready-made solution (Akamai) than to make
one's own, but it was also decided that a change to the software would
first be necessary. Currently, a tag like this:

   [[Image:File_name.jpg]]

produces an <img> tag directly from just the filename:

   <img src="/upload/archive/e/2/File_name.jpg">

where the "e" and the "2" depend only on the filename.

The problem with this is that these paths do not change if the image
changes. This means that overriding an image by uploading a new one to
Wikipedia would still serve the old version of the image from Akamai
until Akamai is updated.

Hence, a change to the source code is necessary that makes the file path
dependent not just on the filename, but also on either the file itself
or the time it was uploaded; however, this increases the load on the
database because it means an extra query for every pageview that
contains an image.

Greetings,
Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Help for use of template

body:
wiki pedista wrote:

> I want to make a template page where, if I use it
> without arguments, the parameter {{{1}}} has the value
> {{PAGENAME}}, but if I do use an argument, the
> parameter
> {{{1}}} has the value with which I'm calling.
> Is that possible?

This is not currently possible, but I'm sure it's pretty easy to code.
In general, I think we need a "default value" syntax in the templates.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Alt-B

references:
<pan.2004.06.08.12.30.14.532128@arvin.dk>	<ca4qvk$jsu$1@sea.gmane.org>	<shu0xlhq8p.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>	<ca5fid$87n$1@sea.gmane.org>	<40C651EC.2080308@hackish.org>
	<ca73mj$u0h$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Delirium wrote:
>
>> No, "Select All" is Alt+A, not Ctrl+A, and the website currently
>> overrides it, which is quite irritating.  This is using Firefox 0.8
>> under Linux.  Perhaps it is Ctrl+A under other operating systems,
>> which is the source of the confusion?
>
>
> Brion mentioned that you're talking about "Select All" in a textfield,
> not the website. In such a case, I always use Ctrl+Home,
> Ctrl+Shift+End... :-p

In my install, Alt+A does select all on a website too.  If you pull down
the "Edit" menu, "Alt+A" is what's written next to "Select All".  It
does appear that Ctrl+A also works on websites, but this doesn't seem to
be documented anywhere in the Firefox UI, and certainly isn't what users
would be expected to use, given that it's not what's written as the
keyboard shortcut next to "Select All" in the menu.

-Mark


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Alt-B

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:

>On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 20:13 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>
>
>
>>What can I do to get rid of them?
>>
>>
>>
>
>To switch them off, drop
>
>ta = false;
>
>in your monobook.js.
>
>
Can this become a checkbox option in the user preferences menu at some
point in the future?

-Mark


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon

body:
Imran Ghory wrote:

>On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>
>>>is perfectly legal for third parties to produce klingon language
>>>documents and redistrbute them under any licence, then we can reconsider.
>>>However until that time we should not risk copyright violation and wasting the time of contributors (to the
>>>Klingon wikipedia).
>>>
>>he situation may not be as simple as that.  It opens up the question of
>>whether a language can be copyrighted at all.  I suspect that it may be
>>patentable in the same way that certain accounting and business
>>processes have been patented.  But that's a whole new kettle of fish.
>>
>>
>I don't think the general case matters, if Paramount give us permission
>that's fine, if they don't then we don't make a klingon wikipedia.
>Fighting a legal case over whether languages are copyrightable is not in
>the interest of the Wikimedia Foundation IMHO.
>
You're the one that chose to discuss this in terms of law.  Establishing
a legal right would still not address the wisdom of a Klingon 'pedia.

Your dependance on Paramount's position implies that they have a right
to grant such a permission.  If the material is not copyrightable, then
what Paramount says does not matter.  We can go ahead without their
permission.  That's precisely why the general case is so important; it
helps to establish legal precedent.  That's why I asked you to cite a
legal case on the matter.

Fighting a legal case is not an issue, because no legal case has been
started.  Significant events must take place before it gets that far.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Can someone please explain to me...

body:
Dear Cerise Rose,

> Wow.  Calm down?  Was my message in anyway hysterical, bitchy, yelling
> (all caps), swearing or in any other way hypered out?

There seem to be a few things that you don't seem to understand:

(1) It is possible to edit articles without logging in.

(2) It is NOT POSSIBLE for you to be "banned from reading". Bans on
     Wikipedia always only affect editing. If you are only reading
     articles, you never get the "you are banned" message.

(3) It is sometimes possible for users of dynamic IPs to get blocked
     from editing erroneously because a malicious user keeps switching
     IPs by re-dialling in. We have no better way of stopping these
     bad-faith edits than to block an entire IP range.

> My initial email is from MAY 22.

Unfortunately, some people failed to realise that. Please forgive them
for that. The reason why your mail didn't appear on the mailing list
until now is because Brion cleaned up the moderation queue, which had
(apparently) been neglected since May.

Greetings,
Timwi


body:
[ CCed by private mail ]

Dear Cerise Rose,

> Wow.  Calm down?  Was my message in anyway hysterical, bitchy, yelling (all caps), swearing or in any other way hypered out?

No, but nor was the reply you received.

There seem to be a few things that you don't seem to understand:

(1) It is possible to edit articles without logging in.

(2) It is NOT POSSIBLE for you to be "banned from reading". Bans on
     Wikipedia always only affect editing. If you are only reading
     articles, you never get the "you are banned" message.

(3) It is sometimes possible for users of dynamic IPs to get blocked
     from editing erroneously because a malicious user keeps switching
     IPs by re-dialling in. We have no better way of stopping these
     bad-faith edits than to block an entire IP range.

(4) The reply you received was not from an official representative of
     Wikipedia (and nor is this one). Swearing at the mailing list's
     casual participants is not going to be of much use.

> My initial email is from MAY 22.

Unfortunately, some people failed to realise that. Please forgive them
for that. The reason why your mail didn't appear on the mailing list
until now is because Brion cleaned up the moderation queue, which had
(apparently) been neglected since May. I don't know who was previously
responsible for doing that, but if you find out, please feel free to
swear at them instead.

Greetings,
Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Error on quadratic formula page

body:
Fennec Foxen wrote:

> On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:01:07 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>>So here is my suggestion for a change. Of course, it's a little bit
>>longer-winded than Fennec's original:
>
> Timwi: {{subst:sofixit}}

Fennec: {{subst:golookatitfirsttoseeifialreadyhavebeforetryingtobesmart}}

Also: {{subst:readtheentireemailbeforereplying}} :-) I did say that I'm
posting it here to show people in general that I don't think "The more
links the better" is always a good excuse for plastering everything with
links.

;-)

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Alt-B

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> Would be a useful thing certainly, and probably not too hard to do. The
> newly-added generated js is already prepared for this. I've changed the
> default accesskeys in the meantime to use
>
> content tab/article: c
> related changes    : k  (formerly c)
>
> So the alt-a mozilla conflict is gone.

control+k conflicts with an alternate (but used by some, particularly
power users) 'cut' command on Macintosh.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Angela

references:
<C88C309EC75BC245876B4647FFD6FBCCBD7800@emailserv.queens.harley>
	<20040608224053.28999.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com>
	<ca75ne$61m$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 15:09:46 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:

> (2) It is NOT POSSIBLE for you to be "banned from reading". Bans on
>      Wikipedia always only affect editing. If you are only reading
>      articles, you never get the "you are banned" message.

No, but it is possible for readers to believe they have been banned.
If they don't know that red links are edit links, and follow one
expecting an article, they could get the "you are blocked" message.

[[MediaWiki:Blockedtext]] can be edited to make this clearer for
people who are only reading.

Angela.


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Reworked css include/pref/tooltip/accesskey
	subsystem

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:

> * accesskeys and tooltips moved to js, needs to be customized/localized
> at MediaWiki:Monobook.js.

Then please could you place the relevant code at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Monobook.js that restores the
shortcuts we had at least for en?

Thanks,
Timwi


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] Reworked css include/pref/tooltip/accesskey subsystem

body:
I've just committed some major changes:

* accesskeys and tooltips moved to js, needs to be customized/localized
at MediaWiki:Monobook.js. Saves many calls to wfMsg, reduces page size,
shows access key prefix depending on browser/os. Easy to customize by
changing the ta array.
* skinphptal underline and justification wired up to produce generated
css
* MediaWiki:Skin.css used for anons as well
* addcss call removed from header
* separate js var file included that holds things like the stylepath and
the tooltip/accesskey array
* rtl css included from generated css

Translators:
Many translated accesskey-XY and tooltip-XY messages need to be moved to
the Monobook.js array, they are now deprecated. The remaining ones might
follow soon.
I also changed the wording and key of the 'clear your cache' message as
it's now also displayed above the prefs as well. A new string is
qbsettingsnote.

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Reini Urban

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: EasyTimeline and WikiHiero enabled on all wikis

body:
Erik Moeller schrieb:
> To my knowledge, MediaWiki is the only wiki software which supports such
> functionality. It should make our wikis interesting even in the highest
> academic circles.

PhpWiki has a ploticus plugin, which can be treated to do the same
thing. Sure, EasyTimeline is better, but I don't like the external
dependency.

We don't use a perl script behind and give the full Ploticus power to
the user. My goal is to simplify the syntax and to do the processing in
php. No seperate requirements (other than ploticus).

png, jpeg, gif.
later: imagemaps, svg, swf. They need a different cache strategy.

--
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.sf.net/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EasyTimeline and WikiHiero enabled on all wikis


from_name: André Müller

subject: AW: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Klingon resurrected

body:
FF> Wikipedia is not [[Memory Alpha]].

That's true, yes. But MemoryAlpha is for Star Trek content only,
besides, it's in English. A Klingon Wikipedia would include both Star
Trek content and real-life things. The vocabulary is large enough to
speak about various things... so it might start with a few ST-related
entries but develop to a wider range of topics.

- Andr?


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: every disputed article to end up with multiple
	versions....

body:
Daniel P.B.Smith wrote:

>>         Isn't that just going to wedge the door open for every disputed
>>         article to
>>         end up with multiple versions?
>
> Well, what would be so terrible about that?

In addition to what Daniel Mayer already said: What's also wrong with
that is that a visitor trying to find information on a particular topic
shouldn't have to make up their mind on which article to consult. In
particular, they shouldn't have to be faced with multiple articles that
contain contradictory information.

Timwi


from_name: Makoto & Guillaume

subject: [Wikitech-l] small template & furigana

body:
// this mail use UTF-8 format //

Hi all.
Can you please remove the "5 same template per page" limit for small
templates?
Tim Starling spoke about other method to limit risk of DOS attack (based on
template size), but waiting to those implementations can you deactivate the
limit (or set it to 100) for tiny template (ex: less than 1kb, 256 bytes, or
100 bytes).

For example, on French WP, we use a lot of {{e}} to emulate
e (it's same as the English "th" for centuries,
etc.).

Other thing, I tried to make a template to be able to write Japanese
furigana (small letters over kanjis to give the pronunciation) into
articles. I tried this

{| style='display:inline;'
|{{{2}}}
|-
|{{{1}}}
|}

I'd like to use it to write something like "???{{furi|??|???}}??" where
"???" is display in small character upper "??".
This work fine in HTML, but with Mediawiki parser the first ("???") and the
last block ("??") are into
 tag that prevent table to be inlined.

You can see an example here:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Aoineko/Test_3
And the template is here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod?le:Furi

Aoineko


from_name: KNOTT, T

body:
Could more eloquent people than myself (especially members of the
AC)take a look at the discussion on this page and try to come up with a
wording to the template that doesn't confuse people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Mr-
Natural-Health/Evidence

So far two people have thought that

 "only complainants can edit this section"

means that only the person who originally requested arbitration is
allowed to add evidence. The template needs to be reworded to make it
clear that it only means that the accused and their supported are
supposed to respond elsewhere, but I just can't think of how to put it.

Theresa


from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Multiple articles for irreconcilable POV's

body:
> From: Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>
> Daniel P.B.Smith wrote:
>
> >>         Isn't that just going to wedge the door open for every disputed
> >>         article to
> >>         end up with multiple versions?
> >
> > Well, what would be so terrible about that?
>
> In addition to what Daniel Mayer already said: What's also wrong with
> that is that a visitor trying to find information on a particular topic
> shouldn't have to make up their mind on which article to consult. In
> particular, they shouldn't have to be faced with multiple articles that
> contain contradictory information.
>
> Timwi

Not to harp on this too much, but let's carry this a little further.
Wikipedia makes one think quite a bit about the nature of authority and
trust. We already have articles that state different points of view within
the same article. In such a case, the reader is faced with "contradictory
information" within a single article. Nowhere do we say that Wikipedia must,
on every topic, avoid "confusing" the reader by "staying on message" or
"singing from the same hymnbook."

We tolerate discrepant points of view within a single article, I think,
because it is clear _at a glance_ at the article that a) the topic IS
contentious and there IS more than one point of view, b) the points of view
are clearly identified and described.

The problem arises only in special cases. Those where the topic is especially
contentious, the topic is really too big to present all points of view at
full length in a single article, and the editors representing each point of
view are so antagonistic that we want to try to keep them out of arms' reach
of each other. It's not something that readers will encounter all the time.
And most of the time, they will know that the topic is contentious before
they even look it up. (Hey, they may well be looking it up to muster
ammunition for their own point of view).

We want the reader to be able to _find_ all the information, no matter how
they search for it. We want the reader to _see instantly at a glance_ that
there are multiple points of view and what they are. We want to encourage the
reader to read all points of view, and we want to supply all point of view
with a level playing field.

Is there REALLY no possible way to do this with a split article, by proper
combinations of naming conventions, links and wording?

So... to take a truly contentious example... let's consider the case of
"Ellis Island, NJ" vs "Ellis Island, NY".  Let's suppose there is no way to
build a stable article that presents both points of view in the same article,
because the history is just too bitter.

Well, what about this. Suppose "Ellis Island, NY" and "Ellis Island, NJ" are
both redirects. This makes them equally easy to find and puts them both on an
equal footing. They are redirects to a page which I'll call the "master page"
that's got about a screenful of well-chosen language, that says: a) The
correct term is disputed. b) The disputed terms are "Ellis Island, NY" and
"Ellis Island, NJ." c) Wikipedia takes no position on which is correct. d)
Here are the two articles.

Now, give those two articles sorta complicated names, maybe "Ellis Island/
POV/NJ and "Ellis Island/POV/NY" to make sure that they will usually be found
only via the master page, and do whatever's necessary to make sure that
Google indexes only the master page.

And insist that each of these two articles BEGIN with a very short summary
of the other point of view and a link to the other article, and that they END
with a short paragraph encouraging you to read the other article.

E.g. Ellis Island/POV/NJ opens "This page presents the point of view
of those who believe that Ellis Island belongs to New York. There are those
who believe that it belongs to New Jersey because of the historical
florbmigast as laid down by frammis court in decision 2.718(e)3.14. This
opposing position is described _here_."  Main article text goes here. Article
closes, "Now that you have read the New York point of view, you may wish to
read the New Jersey point of view _here_."

And symmetrically on the Ellis Island/POV/NY article.

In other words, _for those few topics on which it is truly necessary_, isn't
there an acceptable way to do this?


body:
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 15:22 +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Gabriel Wicke wrote:
>
> > * accesskeys and tooltips moved to js, needs to be customized/localized
> > at MediaWiki:Monobook.js.
>
> Then please could you place the relevant code at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Monobook.js that restores the
> shortcuts we had at least for en?

You should be able to do it yourself. I'm not a sysop, so i can't do
it ;-)
The current fallback to the same access keys as defined in Language.php
should be fine for most things, you can copy the array from
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=-&action=raw&gen=js (starting
after the second comment).

Gabriel Wicke


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Klingon

body:
Imran Ghory wrote:

> Paramount owns the copyright to the Klingon language, the words, the
> grammar, everything.

Think about what you just said. How do you think it could possibly be
the case that individual words are copyrighted? That's impossible.
According to that logic I could write "Hompahee" here, and it would be
subject to my copyright and I could sue anyone who writes it anywhere.
Do you seriously think that is possible?

Also, as I have mentioned numerous times, the grammar of the language is
not a document, so it cannot be copyrighted. A particular document
*describing* the grammar can be copyrighted, but I can always describe
the same grammar in a different way. And even if I couldn't, there still
isn't anything stopping me from putting words together in a way that
just happens to adhere to that grammar.

What you thought was "one simple way to end this arguement", is actually
an urban myth that spreads vehemently across Klingon non-enthusiasts and
skepticists, but never gets any truer.

Timwi


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Snapshot wikipedia installations in schools

body:
>   After feedback from teachers, I have two requests :-
>
>   1.	Graphics	(you knew that was coming !)
>
> 	To determine feasibility of this, can you give me
> 	an idea of the size of a potential graphics archive ?
> 	An incremental snapshot would almost be mandatory for
> 	this, I think.

We've avoided doing this in the past for legal reasons, but I think with
an appropriate disclaimer on the download page it shouldn't be a
problem. To say it's worth navigating the legal hassles so that we can
educate thousands of kids is in my opinion a vast understatement.

My suggestion for the text is:

   Please note: these images are provided for use with a Wikipedia
installation only, and may only be displayed within Wikipedia articles.
Many images are not licensed under GFDL and are only available as "fair
use". Some images may be used freely, please check the associated image
description pages. For more information see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Since the images are already compressed, many with an LZW-type
algorithm, it probably wouldn't gain much to attempt to compress
further. I'll make an uncompressed tar file.

>   2.	A daily SQL update for the main page.
>
>   	This will give it a newsy feel, instead of talking
> 	about Mandarin Chinese for two months :-) I know
> 	that some of the articles it refers to will not be
> 	available, but ... tough.

As Ashar Voultoiz pointed out, you can obtain the wikitext for any page
using Special:Export. Perhaps someone could write a script to regularly
download the wikitext and save it to a database.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Pear wiki text !

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

> maybe have one day an unified wiki
> syntax that will be common to all wikis !!

Changing the syntax of a wiki would require two things: (a) converting
all the articles to the new syntax (bound to go wrong!), and (b)
pursuading all regular contributors to get used to the new syntax (bound
to cause controversy!).

Timwi


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: Technical problems on nl:wiktionary

body:
Gerard.Meijssen wrote:

> This used to work fine, now however, from the fifth onwards it does not produce the text that is in the message ''m'', but it gives us a [[Sjabloon:M]] which is plain wrong.
> Any suggestions why and what can be done ??

Why? Because someone make it so that each template can only be included
up to five times.

What can be done? I suppose it can be turned off and more than five
templates can be allowed again. I don't understand why this was done at all.

Timwi


from_name: Evan Prodromou

subject: [Wikitech-l] Dorky Farfetched Idea of the Day

body:
So, I talked previously about putting field-value pairs into MediaWiki
pages:

    http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-value_pairs

Now I'm thinking that Notation3 ("N3") might be a better match:

    http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://wikitravel.org/en/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: ...

body:
OK a few points to clear up

1)       I am an administrator on wikipedia. I can check to see if you
IP is blocked if you tell it to me, and I can unblock it.
2)       I do not represent wikipedia, my opinions are my own. Non of
the admins represent wikipedia.
3)       You are cc you emails to a mailing list where all and sundry
can read what you write. The people who have replied so far are only
trying to help.
4)       The "administrator" in the message of this mailing list means
the person who checks the mailing list for spam etc It is not the same
thing as the site administrators. We should probably change the name of
one or the other to save confusion in the future.

It looks to me as if Angela's suggestion that you clicked on a red link
is probably what happened, though it doesn't explain why you shouldn't
be able to read subsequent pages. Unless the server went down in the
meantime, which was perfectly possible I suppose.

Sorry for replying when you have indicated you don't want to read any
more replies but some of the points you make do need to be discussed by
everyone. It was not my intention to be rude when I said "calm down".
Ill happily take it back.

Theresa

-----Original Message-----
From: Cerise Rose [mailto:ceriserose69 at yahoo.com]
Sent: 09 June 2004 16:59
To: KNOTT, T; ajh65 at hermes.cam.ac.uk
Cc: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: ...

Interesting that after telling you to leave me ALONE after this I now
receive a few more replies.
IF the site was set up to leave a message for an ADMINISTRATOR or
ADMINISTRATOR QUEUE without having to log in, I would not have HAD to go
this route.  First off, every email I send to wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
gets a reply that says it would have to be reviewed by the
administrators BEFORE it was released to the board.  I realized it
wasn't the 'right' place to send the message but there was no other
obvious place on the pages I could access.  Silly me thought one would
actually BE looking at it and deal with what could be a potential
problem on YOUR board. If I was posting to the wrong place,  or if there
was a better place to contact the admins, maybe it should be a bit more
obvious.  With the ban message I received I couldn't get into all areas
of the site, right?  You'd think that people who are banned erroneously
or not, might need a way to contact the administration if they think
it's in error.
I don't know who you, or anyone else is, when they email me back, right?
I'M NOT and DO NOT WISH to be a member.  When someone asks me for an IP
and sounds like they're going to investigate when I provide them the
info, am I so far off to think they MIGHT be an ADMINISTRATOR?  Even
Theresa's response today asks me to give information on the error
messages I received (which, again weeks later, I don't remember them).
Timwi, I'm am not getting into the semantics of my post.  Telling
someone to calm down *IS* rude.  I didn't say Theresa was hyper or
upset, did I?  So your point about her reply not being so either is
completely irrelevant.
If I don't understand things about the board maybe it's because I'm NOT
A MEMBER.  I can't stress this enough.  I'm someone who found some
interesting things on a website and for no apparent reason hit a wall
and thought a simple email to the admins voicing my displeasure at the
screwed up site might get me somewhere. In hindsight, I wish I'd just
hit another google site and been done with this crap.
I was reading.  I clicked on a link to go to another page of what I was
reading. From that moment on I could not access a single thing on the
site, except for a page that has a link to a message board that
apparently spits my concern to all and sundry without prejudice.  End
of story.  Something somewhere FUCKED UP. Usually administrators and
site webmasters LIKE to know when things go wrong. Usually they listen
to feedback.  Apparently this site is NOT set up that way.
As for swearing at casual participants, for that I apologize Theresa.
Without identifying yourself as not being admin, I did think you were
representing the site. I am normally not so reactive, but the sheer and
utter stupidity of the way this site runs (or doesn't run) has
frustrated me beyond belief.
I will not reply to any more messages.  I'm completely done with this.
Thank you for taking your time and attempting to assist me, again,
Theresa I'm sorry for not understanding your position and taking out
what should be for the administration on you.

  _____

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
<http://messenger.yahoo.com/>
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fundraising

references:
<20040607120945.GN11608@joey.bomis.com> <9AQwV1MxpVB@erik_moeller>
	<ca81dq$k39$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:

> Do not forget that by using PayPal WikiMedia is wasting a lot of money.
>
> Befor asking even more money a cheaper donation channel should be
> explored.
>
> Please see
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Fundraising_page#MoneyBookers
>

Is it actually cheaper in all cases though?  Remember that the plurality
of our donations come from the United States, and from my reading of
their fees page it seems that MoneyBookers in some cases takes a higher
cut of US donations than PayPal does.

The only options listed for payment in the US are SWIFT (free) and
Credit card (3% surcharge), plus a 1% Moneybookers fee (up to EUR0.50).
SWIFT (basically a bank transfer, if I understand correctly) is not
typically used by Americans, and not even available through all banks.
With credit cards, therefore the most common US payment option that
MoneyBookers supports, the fees total 4% to send money via credit card
(3% cc processing fee and a 1% moneybookers transfer fee).

PayPal charges 2.9% (for USD donations) plus a $0.30 flat fee, which
makes MoneyBookers better for donations $27 and under, and PayPal better
for donations over $27.  Thus it seems MoneyBookers would be a worse
option for medium to large credit-card donations from the US.

Of course, we might have very few of those.  Perhaps we could just give
a simplified version of this information to people and let them choose
which payment option would be most appropriate for their particular
donation.

-Mark


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fundraising

body:
--- Walter Vermeir <walter at wikipedia.be> wrote:
> Do not forget that by using PayPal WikiMedia is wasting a lot of money.

When you consider the fact that so many people already know about and use
PayPal, then 4.5% to 7.6% overall charges don't seem that bad (much less than
sales tax in most places). But yes, MoneyBookers is cheaper (and in 4
languages).

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_PayPal_donations_for_2003

> Befor asking even more money a cheaper donation channel should be explored.
>
> Please see
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Fundraising_page#MoneyBookers

We already have a MoneyBookers account. I simply have not looked into how to
set up an easy way for people to donate using it yet (like I've already done
for PayPal). But I just added the single button - donors will have to
copy/paste or type our account name in order to donate.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Pear wiki text !

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
>> maybe have one day an unified wiki syntax that will be common to all
>> wikis !!
>
>
> Changing the syntax of a wiki would require two things: (a) converting
> all the articles to the new syntax (bound to go wrong!), and (b)
> pursuading all regular contributors to get used to the new syntax (bound
> to cause controversy!).
>
> Timwi

The class allow one to specify it's own syntax / handlers !! :o)

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The wiki software is written for wikipedia

body:
LS,
When I follow what has happened the last few days, I can not help but come to the conclusion that things are done with wikipedia in mind.

Take for instance those lines that are "gratis" when you use headings. They make excellent sense when in Wikipedia but they look _horrible_ in wiktionary. Have a look at http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Breton for instance. It does not look good.

Take a look at the restriction on the number of messages (5) per page. This is "reasonable" in wikipedia, but when you want to internationalise a page and use messages to indicate things that differ from language to language, like the gender of a word, you can have dozens words that are masculine and you get garbage as a result.

When there are problems, they seem to be relatively quickly fixed for the wikipedia's but, for the wiktionaries the consistency  is lacking.

When you have an environment like wiktionary/wikipedia they _need_ to be the same in order to be able to fix things and understand the behaviour of the software. The wiktionaries do not behave in a same way. You can create an article with a Chinese (characters) name in English but not on the nl:wiktionary (and others).

We have just had a major disaster. What I expected in the aftermath was some consolidation. However, now the "Enhanced recent changes (not for all browsers)" in preferences is up the creek!!

What concerns me is that for us "simple" users there is no idea what problems are being tacled. What the priorities are and if things still get tested prior to production.

*Is the idea that we have stabilized??
*Do we still have database problems? (anecdotal evidence says we do)
*Is there a moratorium on minor stuff so that there is the peace and quiet to fix the major stuff?

Sorry for being difficult,
  GerardM


subject: [Wiktionary-l] The wiki software is written for wikipedia


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Alt-B

references:
<pan.2004.06.08.12.30.14.532128@arvin.dk>
	<ca4qvk$jsu$1@sea.gmane.org>  <shu0xlhq8p.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>

body:
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 20:13 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

> What can I do to get rid of them?
>

To switch them off, drop

ta = false;

in your monobook.js.

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Alexandros Diamantidis

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: small template & furigana

body:
* Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> [2004-06-09 04:04]:
> Jens Frank wrote:
> >Shouldn't UTF-8 provide the needed diacritic characters needed to compose
> >these, without needing HTML tables?
[...]
> So it's really something more on the publication-layout level than on
> the character level, which is why it'll probably never be in Unicode,
> even as a combinator sort of thing.

To be pedantic about it, there are three characters defined in Unicode
for this:

U+FFF9 INTERLINEAR ANNOTATION ANCHOR
U+FFFA INTERLINEAR ANNOTATION SEPARATOR
U+FFFB INTERLINEAR ANNOTATION TERMINATOR

In systems that support them, <FFF9><kanji><FFFA><hiragana><FFFB> would
mean the kanji with the hiragana as ruby annotation. In practice, I
don't think this is implemented anywhere. It was defined more for
internal use in systems that could use them, not as characters that
could appear in plain text or entered by users.

--
Alexandros Diamantidis * adia at hellug.gr


from_name: Tomasz Sienicki

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reworked css & other problems

body:
 Gabriel Wicke wrote:

> I've just committed some major changes:

 I don't know if there's a connection here, but this afternoon
 'Enchanced recent changes' stopped working for me (I can't open
 the lists of changes that are groupped together). Checked in
 Firefox and Konqueror.

 While I am at it, some feedback from pl.wiktionary.org:
 * editing MediaWiki:monobook.css doesn't seem to have any effect
   (I tried 'a {text-decoration: none;}'). It works in user/css though
 * interwiki links Wiktionary -> Wikipedia ([[w:this sort]]) are broken
   again: they point to www.wikipedia.org instead of the national Wikipedia
 * the Template: namespace (Szablon:) doesn't exist (?). Sometimes
   {{text}} results in the same as [[text]], sometimes it results in
   displaying  'text.29">'
 * limiting {{messages}} to five occurences per page is a bad idea in
   case of Wiktionaries, where entries need to follow specific patterns
   in a much higher degree than on Wikipedias

--
 tsca * Tomasz Sienicki


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: Reworked css & other problems


body:
It doesn't matter whether the points of view are
reconcilable or not, we just have to report that there
are two points of view:
"Most people believe the world is roughly spherical,
while loony number 17 believes it is flat."
Problem solved.
Mark

--- Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:
>
> > We already have articles that state different
> points of view within
> > the same article. In such a case, the reader is
> faced with "contradictory
> > information" within a single article.
>
> I don't see "Group X claims Foo, group Y claims the
> opposite" as
> contradictory information.
>
> Your solution with the redirects and the "master
> page" is too complex,
> too difficult to administer for absolutely every
> controversial subject,
> and highly confusing to readers. Everybody will be
> pointing fingers at
> Wikipedia's low quality because of it. To
> unsuspecting visitors, it just
> looks completely messed up.
>
> > In other words, _for those few topics on which it
> is truly necessary_, isn't
> > there an acceptable way to do this?
>
> I don't think it's truly necessary.
>
> > read the New Jersey point of view _here_."
>
> Oh, and as an aside, please use more sensible link
> texts than "here". :)
>
> Greetings,
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
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from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
There are several things "wrong".

*There is one diliberate line to distinguish the meaning of the word in two
languages; Engels & Frans. This line does not serve its purpose
*Because of the heading the word itself Engels & Frans are underlined _and_
they get a line from front to back.

It just does not look good.

Anyway,
 Thanks for looking at the page.
	Gerard

(to be difficult, I raised more points..)

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org]On Behalf Of Theresa Robinson
Sent: woensdag 9 juni 2004 19:10
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] The wiki software is written for wikipedia

> Take for instance those lines that are "gratis" when you use headings.
> They make excellent sense when in Wikipedia but they look _horrible_ in
> wiktionary. Have a look at http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Breton for
> instance. It does not look good.

I'm a little unclear on what you perceive to be wrong with this page.  It
looks fine to me.

moink
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Svyatoslav Igorevich

subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
Hello,
I am writing to protest my being banned by Guanaco,
and to request that I be unbanned immediately.  All of
the charges he made against me ("linkspam, violating 3
revert limit after warning, making threats to call in
a puppet army from a message board to push his POV
further") are false, which should be made obvious to
anyone who reviews the "white nationalism" wikipedia
page and its discussion page.

First, I didn't "linkspam."  I posted 8 new links,
which brought the total to 9.  The entry for "Zionism"
has 21 external links, of which the vast majority are
to Zionist sites.

Second, I have not ever made a single revert to a
Wikipedia entry, as a review of the logs should show -
I didn't even know what a revert was until a half hour
or so ago.  My entries HAVE been reverted multiple
times by other users, on the other hand, and I think
the reverts violate Wikipedia guidelines.

Third, I did not threaten to call a "puppet army,"
that is patently absurd, which anyone reviewing the
discussion page can clearly see.

This harrassment is ridiculous an uncalled-for.  It's
perfectly clear that I'm being harrassed because of my
beliefs.

My IP is 172.173.127.231
My Wikipedia user id is Svigor.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/


body:
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 19:20 +0200, Tomasz Sienicki wrote:
>  Gabriel Wicke wrote:
>
> > I've just committed some major changes:
>
>  I don't know if there's a connection here, but this afternoon
>  'Enchanced recent changes' stopped working for me (I can't open
>  the lists of changes that are groupped together). Checked in
>  Firefox and Konqueror.
>

Nope, this were a few bugs introduced by the recent " -> ' conversion.

>  While I am at it, some feedback from pl.wiktionary.org:
>  * editing MediaWiki:monobook.css doesn't seem to have any effect
>    (I tried 'a {text-decoration: none;}'). It works in user/css though

User prefs override this, those are currently not per-skin. The default
(that most users don't change) is underlined. I think making these prefs
per-skin and adding an 'automatic' setting that uses the skin default
will be the way to do it in the future. That will also help to upgrade
people from old default 'underlined' prefs.

>  * interwiki links Wiktionary -> Wikipedia ([[w:this sort]]) are broken
>    again: they point to www.wikipedia.org instead of the national Wikipedia
>  * the Template: namespace (Szablon:) doesn't exist (?). Sometimes
>    {{text}} results in the same as [[text]], sometimes it results in
>    displaying  'text.29">'
>  * limiting {{messages}} to five occurences per page is a bad idea in
>    case of Wiktionaries, where entries need to follow specific patterns
>    in a much higher degree than on Wikipedias
>

Don't know much about these. Some of them are reported already.

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Camille Constans

subject:
[Wikitech-l] [Fwd: Wikitech-l post from
	responsable.ekipage@online.fr requires approval]

body:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 10:51:00 -0700
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:

> I initially discarded this as spam (HTML mail, request for
> "partnership", first paragraph links to a web site) but on second look
> it looks legit. Sorry!
>
> -------------
>
> Subject: Urgent : Demande de Partenariat / Urgent: Ask Partnership
> From: "responsable.ekipage" <responsable.ekipage at online.fr>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:22:39 +0200
> To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>

Sent a mail. Thanks Brion :)


from_name: Imran Ghory

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Klingon

body:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Timwi wrote:

> Imran Ghory wrote:
>
> > Paramount owns the copyright to the Klingon language, the words, the
> > grammar, everything.
>
> Think about what you just said. How do you think it could possibly be
> the case that individual words are copyrighted? That's impossible.
> According to that logic I could write "Hompahee" here, and it would be
> subject to my copyright and I could sue anyone who writes it anywhere.

Firstly they'd have to copy you. Copyright is unlike patent
law,independant creation doesn't violate copyright.

Secondly, we're not talking about one invented wors here we're talking
about 100s of words.

> an urban myth that spreads vehemently across Klingon non-enthusiasts and
> skepticists, but never gets any truer.

>From the klingon language mailing list FAQ as linked to by the Klingon
Language Institute,

*****
2.12 Can someone give me a list of all the Klingon words?

This is an understandable question, considering the (increasingly) large
number of canon sources for Klingon. But the problem is, the Klingon
language belongs to Paramount; it's copyrighted. If someone started
distributing lists of Klingon words (or descriptions of grammar, etc.),
then Paramount might view this as competition for the legitimate sale of
their own products, which would be A Bad Thing.

...

What about all those other sources for canon beyond TKD ? The KLI keeps a
list of words post- TKD . Isn't this in violation of Paramount's
copyrights? Well, the KLI has a license from Paramount, as an Authorized
User of Klingon. But don't ask them for a complete list.
*****

However as I said before, if you or someone else can get Paramount to
clarify the legal permission of the lanugage, then we'd be in a position
to progress.

Imran
--
http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon

body:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> >is perfectly legal for third parties to produce klingon language
> >documents and redistrbute them under any licence, then we can reconsider.
> >However until that time we should not risk copyright violation and wasting the time of contributors (to the
> >Klingon wikipedia).
> >
> The situation may not be as simple as that.  It opens up the question of
> whether a language can be copyrighted at all.  I suspect that it may be
> patentable in the same way that certain accounting and business
> processes have been patented.  But that's a whole new kettle of fish.

I don't think the general case matters, if Paramount give us permission
that's fine, if they don't then we don't make a klingon wikipedia.
Fighting a legal case over whether languages are copyrightable is not in
the interest of the Wikimedia Foundation IMHO.

Imran
--
http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/stylesheets wikibits.js,
	1.34, 1.35

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> I already provided a list of keys to avoid. Why don't you see what's
>> left and make some recommendations from that that you'd like?
>
> Gabriel and I were already struggling to assign access keys in a
> sensible manner, and many of them already turned out unintuitive (e.g.
> Special Pages = Q, because S and P were already assigned to the Save and
> Preview buttons on Edit screens, or Random Page = X, because R was
> already assigned to Recent Changes). Some were already required to be
> special characters (e.g. My User Page = .).
>
> Taking more letters of the alphabet away from us is only going to make
> this even worse. We're going to inflict shortcuts like "-", "'", "/",
> "=", "[", etc. upon everybody, just so that some people can have their
> "select all".

It's not necessary to assign a key to every conceivable function!
Overriding browser functionality, however, is never ever acceptable. I'm
sorry if this seems awkward to you, but I assure you it's a lot more
awkward to have the computer to unexpected things in response to
standard keystrokes.

No conflicting access keys will be kept.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Tomasz Sienicki wrote:
>  I don't know if there's a connection here, but this afternoon
>  'Enchanced recent changes' stopped working for me (I can't open
>  the lists of changes that are groupped together). Checked in
>  Firefox and Konqueror.

Now fixed in cvs, bug related to " -> '  .

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/stylesheets
	wikibits.js, 1.34, 1.35

body:
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 11:27 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> > Log Message:
> > Reworked css include/pref/tooltip/accesskey subsystem
> >
> > * accesskeys and tooltips moved to js, needs to be
> > customized/localized at MediaWiki:Monobook.js. Saves many calls to
> > wfMsg, reduces page size, shows access key prefix depending on
> > browser/os. Easy to customize by changing the ta array.
>
> Most of the access keys no longer work with JavaScript disabled. This is
> puzzling, as it seems to defeat the 'accessibility' part. Is this
> intentional?

Yes. Acessibility doesn't necessarily mean no javascript. Afaik all
common screenreaders i know of use js (they are based on IE), the
ability to change the access keys will be useful to disabled users as
well.

>
> (However many of the keys need to be changed in the first place due to
> conflicts with existing browser shortcut keys as outlined in my earlier
> post on the subject.)

Go ahead, make a proposal or edit MediaWiki:Monobook.js. Hope the result
isn't completely impossible to remember.

Gabriel Wicke


subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
I don't recall that information being included in my
block notification.  In other words, I had no way of
knowing if my ban was for 10 days or permanent or
what.

Even in light of this I'm still glad I protested.  I'm
very used to the censorship that is endemic throughout
western society when the subject is frank discussion
of racial nationalism in general, and white
nationalism in particular.

I'm quite fed up with this thoroughly contemptible
behavior, and I intend to fight it whenever possible,
as it is with Wikipedia.  I don't intend to spread my
p.o.v. all over Wikipedia - the entries on racial
nationalism and white nationalism are all I'm
interested in.

As I stated in the discussion page, I don't expect the
entry to become a WNist tract.  I DO expect it to be,
as the Wikipedia guidlines suggest, from a "neutral"
and "sympathetic" p.o.v.  I DO expect it to fairly
present WNist beliefs as held by WNs themselves,
rather than present a anti-WN p.o.v.  I DO expect it
to contain relevant links and sources for those
interested in learning more about WNism from a WN
p.o.v., rather than the usual second-hand biased crap
which is prevalent in the media.  Did I say
"prevalent?"  I meant to say "endemic," or perhaps
"axiomatic."

I think some people need to reread the Wikipedia
guidelines, since I seem to be more familiar with them
than they.

--- Fennec Foxen <fennec at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:58:56 -0700 (PDT), Svyatoslav
> Igorevich
> <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > I am writing to protest my being banned by
> Guanaco,
> > and to request that I be unbanned immediately.
> 02:23, 10 Jun 2004, Guanaco blocked Svigor (expires
> 02:23, 11 Jun
> 2004) (contribs) (linkspam, violating 3 revert limit
> after warning,
> making threats to call in a puppet army from a
> message board to push
> his POV further)
> 03:53, 10 Jun 2004, Guanaco blocked #5653 (expires
> 03:53, 11 Jun 2004)
> (Autoblocked because your IP address has been
> recently used by
> "'''Svigor'''". The reason given for Svigor's block
> is as follows:
> "'''linkspam, violating 3 revert limit after
> warning, making threats
> to call in a puppet army from a message board to
> push his)
>
> -- from
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist
>
> Would it *really* trouble you to wait for the block
> to expire on its
> own? Blocks default to 24 hours for a reason- it's
> rather short,
> considering. What is the particular urgency in ths
> situation?
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
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Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
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from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
Please note that this user has already threatened to invite posters on a White nationalist website to "visit" WIkipedia in order to make sure that the [[White nationalism]] article matches their POV.  And his comment that he has not reverted an article is untrue.  See the history of [[White nationalism]].  He has also spam linked the White nationalism article, but I've used up my three reverts.

RickK

Svyatoslav Igorevich <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello,
I am writing to protest my being banned by Guanaco,
and to request that I be unbanned immediately. All of
the charges he made against me ("linkspam, violating 3
revert limit after warning, making threats to call in
a puppet army from a message board to push his POV
further") are false, which should be made obvious to
anyone who reviews the "white nationalism" wikipedia
page and its discussion page.

First, I didn't "linkspam." I posted 8 new links,
which brought the total to 9. The entry for "Zionism"
has 21 external links, of which the vast majority are
to Zionist sites.

Second, I have not ever made a single revert to a
Wikipedia entry, as a review of the logs should show -
I didn't even know what a revert was until a half hour
or so ago. My entries HAVE been reverted multiple
times by other users, on the other hand, and I think
the reverts violate Wikipedia guidelines.

Third, I did not threaten to call a "puppet army,"
that is patently absurd, which anyone reviewing the
discussion page can clearly see.

This harrassment is ridiculous an uncalled-for. It's
perfectly clear that I'm being harrassed because of my
beliefs.

My IP is 172.173.127.231
My Wikipedia user id is Svigor.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
_______________________________________________
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http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: Summary style (was Re: [WikiEN-l] Response to Bryan Derken)

body:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Abe Sokolov wrote:
>
> > maveric149 at yahoo.com:
> >
> > "The ability to write good summaries is a rarer trait than the ability
> > to write at length on a subject. Let those who can summarize help
> > improve the article series by making it useful to people who don't
> > want to read for an hour."
> >
> > Are you saying that I can't. FYI, I've written dozens of brief
> > articles on broad subjects too. I just don't list them on my user page
> > because I don't want to give stalkers a guidebook.
>
> I would prefer to take Mav's statement at the face value of a generality
> without any implicit criticism of you or anybody else.  Personalizing
> somebody's general comments is not very encouraging for interwikipedian
> relations. O:-)
>
Treating the topic as a personal afront appears to be 172's strategy in
every interaction. One is left with one of two reactions: bewildered shock
that one has inadvertently caused offense, or suspicion that 172 is
acting in bad faith. I have offered evidence in my previous email why I
embrace the latter interpretation, but here's one more example:

172 complains that he doesn't have the time to make certain changes in the
article under discussion, & that the article isn't important enough for him
to make them. Mav offers to do the work, & 172's response is to find offense.

I haven't written further about the matters of my earlier email to allow
172 time to respond to my accusations, but he has not seen fit to answer
them, let alone acknowledge them. I assume that a lack of answer indicates
his tacit consent to my charges.

Geoff


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS]
	phase3/stylesheets	wikibits.js,  1.34, 1.35

body:
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 12:14 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:

> You can change them in JavaScript *after* they're set to defaults in the
> HTML. Shall we change all the "http://foo" URLs to
> "javascript:document.location='http://foo'"? After all, accessibility
> only means blind people using JavaScript, right! Sigh........

Not quite the same thing, is it? An access key that's completely
unintuitive can be as inaccessible as one that collides with another one
set by the browser/os or one that has a misleading 'alt-x' label instead
of a the proper 'shift-esc-x' for the opera browser somebody's using.
Which are the users that will have a problem with this setup?

I added all those access keys and tooltips in 1.3, and only in the
PHPTal skin. The 'standard', 'nostalgia' and 'cologneblue' skins don't
have these access keys at all, i'd say practically no access keys are a
bigger problem than user-configurable ones set from js with helpful
labels.

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
Oh. Well, the reader also has either a point of view of his own or one he is
looking for. A person thinking Danzig will go there, one thinking Gdansk
will to there. Personally, I find myself in both.

Fred

> From: Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:11:50 +0100
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: every disputed article to end up with multiple
> versions....
>
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>> The articles would be complementary, each prominently linked to the other at
>> the top of the page.
>
> Yes, and that's exactly the problem. The visitor would go, "Huh? Now
> which one am I supposed to look at to find what I'm looking for? Do I
> have to read through *both* of them to see if any of them has it? I'm
> confused!"
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject: [Wikitech-l] small template & furigana

body:
Makoto & Guillaume wrote:
> // this mail use UTF-8 format //
>
> Hi all.
> Can you please remove the "5 same template per page" limit for small
> templates?
> Tim Starling spoke about other method to limit risk of DOS attack (based on
> template size), but waiting to those implementations can you deactivate the
> limit (or set it to 100) for tiny template (ex: less than 1kb, 256 bytes, or
> 100 bytes).
>
> For example, on French WP, we use a lot of {{e}} to emulate
> e (it's same as the English "th" for centuries,
> etc.).
>
> Other thing, I tried to make a template to be able to write Japanese
> furigana (small letters over kanjis to give the pronunciation) into
> articles. I tried this
>

Why not use {{susbt:e}} ? OK it's a bit longer to write.

-- Looxix


from_name: Charles Matthews

body:
Daniel P.B.Smith wrote

<snip>

> In other words, _for those few topics on which it is truly necessary_,
isn't
> there an acceptable way to do this?

I don't meet many 'edit warrior' types who would concede on the 'truly
necessary'.  Thin end of the wedge, unfortunately.

Charles


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon

body:
On 06/09/04 03:56, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Imran Ghory wrote:

>> I think there's one simple way to end this arguement,
>> Paramount owns the copyright to the Klingon language, the words, the
>> grammar, everything.
>> Let me repeat, (it is claimed) Paramount owns the copyright to individual
>> klingon words.
>> i.e. we can't legally have a klingon wikipedia.

> The situation may not be as simple as that.  It opens up the question of
> whether a language can be copyrighted at all.  I suspect that it may be
> patentable in the same way that certain accounting and business
> processes have been patented.  But that's a whole new kettle of fish.
> Have there been any court decisions anywhere about whether copyrights in
> a langiuage can exist.

Furthermore, if someone did try to claim the use, down to individual words,
of a language as Intellectual Property, I'd get behind a project to create
a Wikipedia in the language *because* of such a dangerously ridiculous
and overbroadened concept of ownership.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
Please note that that's a lie, what I really wrote is
ready for all to see on the "white nationalism"
discussion page.

It's also a lie that I reverted the article.  I edited
in changes, my changes were reverted against
guidelines, and I subsequently edited them back in.
This may or may not be a technicality, but judging by
what I read on reversions at Wikipedia, it isn't.

This whole thing about the links is plain SILLY.  If
you want a better balance of anti-WN links, add them
yourself.  Deleting the links I've added doesn't
accomplish your goal, unless your goal is to prevent
links to WN or "WNish" sites.

--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Please note that this user has already threatened to
> invite posters on a White nationalist website to
> "visit" WIkipedia in order to make sure that the
> [[White nationalism]] article matches their POV.
> And his comment that he has not reverted an article
> is untrue.  See the history of [[White
> nationalism]].  He has also spam linked the White
> nationalism article, but I've used up my three
> reverts.
>
> RickK
>
> Svyatoslav Igorevich
> <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I am writing to protest my being banned by Guanaco,
> and to request that I be unbanned immediately. All
> of
> the charges he made against me ("linkspam, violating
> 3
> revert limit after warning, making threats to call
> in
> a puppet army from a message board to push his POV
> further") are false, which should be made obvious to
> anyone who reviews the "white nationalism" wikipedia
> page and its discussion page.
>
> First, I didn't "linkspam." I posted 8 new links,
> which brought the total to 9. The entry for
> "Zionism"
> has 21 external links, of which the vast majority
> are
> to Zionist sites.
>
> Second, I have not ever made a single revert to a
> Wikipedia entry, as a review of the logs should show
> -
> I didn't even know what a revert was until a half
> hour
> or so ago. My entries HAVE been reverted multiple
> times by other users, on the other hand, and I think
> the reverts violate Wikipedia guidelines.
>
> Third, I did not threaten to call a "puppet army,"
> that is patently absurd, which anyone reviewing the
> discussion page can clearly see.
>
> This harrassment is ridiculous an uncalled-for. It's
> perfectly clear that I'm being harrassed because of
> my
> beliefs.
>
> My IP is 172.173.127.231
> My Wikipedia user id is Svigor.
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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from_name: Neil Harris

body:
Evan Prodromou wrote:

>So, I talked previously about putting field-value pairs into MediaWiki
>pages:
>
>    http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-value_pairs
>
>Now I'm thinking that Notation3 ("N3") might be a better match:
>
>    http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer
>
>~ESP
>
>
>
You might also want to take a look at the Turtle paper at
http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/2004/01/turtle/
or the Kendra project's semantic wiki prototype at
http://dev1.kendra.org.uk/

-- Neil


from_name: Fennec Foxen

body:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 15:38:18 +0200, Andr? M?ller <andrew1985 at gmx.de> wrote:
>
> FF> Wikipedia is not [[Memory Alpha]].
>
> That's true, yes. But MemoryAlpha is for Star Trek content only,
> besides, it's in English. A Klingon Wikipedia would include both Star
> Trek content and real-life things.

In theory, yes. And in theory, theory is the same as practice, but in
practice it is not.
Personally, I have sincere doubts about the ability of a Klingon
wikipedia to produce an encyclopedic work similar to that of the other
wikipedias.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Alt-B

body:
I'd just like to extend a public apology to Gabriel for my being snappy
over the access keys today. There's still work to be done (as always!)
but we're making improvements, thanks in no small part to the huge
amounts of great work you've been putting in to the project.

Details are for constructive discussion, not bickering! I withdraw my
objections until such time as I'm able to Show The Code and make further
improvements myself.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:29:49 -0700 (PDT), Mark Richards
<marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It doesn't matter whether the points of view are
> reconcilable or not, we just have to report that there
> are two points of view:
> "Most people believe the world is roughly spherical,
> while loony number 17 believes it is flat."
> Problem solved.
> Mark
Yes, after we delete the bit about loony number 17 for being
irrelevant, unencyclopedic, and unverifiable. :)


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re:
	[MediaWiki-CVS]	phase3/stylesheets	wikibits.js,  1.34, 1.35

body:
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 13:53 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:

> This is why the conflicting defaults must be changed; they are very
> damaging to usability. If you don't do it, I will.

Can you propose new default assignments? Im not objecting to avoiding
keys like a (select all on moz linux), but we should try to find a more
meaningful choice than '2' or similar.

> Having *no labels* (but the access keys being listed prominently in the
> editing help and the site's accessibility statement) would also be
> acceptable. This would be the natural state with JavaScript disabled if
> the accesskeys were being set in the HTML (as they were until recently).

Which users do you have in mind here? I imagine there are very few
disabled users using lynx for their daily browsing needs. Imo
accessibility is not about textbooks, it's about making good decisions
with the disabled, but also with the average user in mind. That's the
gist of the WCAG and section 508 as far as i understand them.

> > I added all those access keys and tooltips in 1.3, and only in the
> > PHPTal skin. The 'standard', 'nostalgia' and 'cologneblue' skins don't
> > have these access keys at all, i'd say practically no access keys are a
> > bigger problem than user-configurable ones set from js with helpful
> > labels.
>
> Do you then agree that the access keys should work even if JavaScript is
> disabled or unavailable?

The most important ones do (p, s). We could re-add some other important
ones, but i don't agree that this is a high priority. The problem with
having both would be maintenance- the keys would need to be
updated/changed in two places- Monobook.js and acceskey-xy. The ~80
saved calls to wfMsg per page view and the reduced page source size are
also important for accessibility- a slow/timing out wikipedia is not
accessible at all.

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: N.T. Riche

subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
Jack Lynch <jacklynch at excite.com> wrote:

This user has taken to calling me "Troll", and dismissing me w such in talk pages.

This is very typical of Rick, He can be like this. Personally I feel Rick's behavior as sysop is terrible, and he should be de-sysoped. Now I have tried to reason with Rick, but he has called me a troll and the like.

I find this to be an offensive presonal attack.

It is, trust me on it.

When I request for him to discuss this with me or change the behaviour, he deletes my request.
"removing troll" is the edit summary.
What is to be done w this sort of harassment?

Nothing could be my brother in arms, becuase Rick will be defended by the sysops. Wikipedia is a Dictatorship, you cannot question people like Rick lest you'll be banned. However, I can help you nevertheless my brother, please join the IRC channel (as a matter of fact if Rick is reading this I'd like you also to join because I wish to discuss my POV with you).

Jack

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:58:56 -0700 (PDT), Svyatoslav Igorevich
<svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I am writing to protest my being banned by Guanaco,
> and to request that I be unbanned immediately.
02:23, 10 Jun 2004, Guanaco blocked Svigor (expires 02:23, 11 Jun
2004) (contribs) (linkspam, violating 3 revert limit after warning,
making threats to call in a puppet army from a message board to push
his POV further)
03:53, 10 Jun 2004, Guanaco blocked #5653 (expires 03:53, 11 Jun 2004)
(Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by
"'''Svigor'''". The reason given for Svigor's block is as follows:
"'''linkspam, violating 3 revert limit after warning, making threats
to call in a puppet army from a message board to push his)

-- from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist

Would it *really* trouble you to wait for the block to expire on its
own? Blocks default to 24 hours for a reason- it's rather short,
considering. What is the particular urgency in ths situation?


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fundraising

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

[cut]
> dramatically increase participation. This isn't that hard to do as PayPal
> provides an interface for it:
> https://www.paypal.com/en/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/ipn-intro
[cut]

Do not forget that by using PayPal WikiMedia is wasting a lot of money.

Befor asking even more money a cheaper donation channel should be explored.

Please see
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Fundraising_page#MoneyBookers

--
Contact: walter AT wikipedia PUNT be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


subject: [WikiEN-l] Ed Poor's abuse of admin powers

body:
Abe Sokolov <abesokolov at hotmail.com> wrote:
I think that a number of users have been misunderstanding my posting. I was
not calling Ed Poor's activities on the mailing list an abuse of admin
powers. This was just an attempt by Ed Poor to poison the well against me so
that he could get his way on the Pinochet article, where he did abuse admin
powers.

His unprotection of the Pinochet article and minutes later his restoration
of the version favored by VeryVerily (but opposed by roughly 90% of the
users who've participated in the discussion on the talk page) were the
abuses to which I was referring.

-172

I understand 172, however I had proposed to you a revised verison of Pinochet page. This page leans more towards your position however you ignored me why? Very Verily's verison was my revison. However I don't approve of Ed's unprotection, because it should have remained protected until all conflicts are resolved. Thank you for your time 172

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Alt-B

body:
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 14:59 -0500, Delirium wrote:

> >To switch them off, drop
> >
> >ta = false;
> >
> >in your monobook.js.
> >
> >
> Can this become a checkbox option in the user preferences menu at some
> point in the future?

Would be a useful thing certainly, and probably not too hard to do. The
newly-added generated js is already prepared for this. I've changed the
default accesskeys in the meantime to use

content tab/article: c
related changes    : k  (formerly c)

So the alt-a mozilla conflict is gone.

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] [[Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict]]

body:
Viajero wrote:

>This evening, I chanced upon the following article:
>
>  [[Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict]]
>
>How is it possible, with all our well-formulated theories of NPOV and our vigilant editors, that such an horrendous text remains on the wikipedia? I have listed it on VfD (but it appears that it has been there before).
>
>I am disgusted.
>
>
If you're that easily disgusted, you must not have edited any
Israeli-Palestinian articles on Wikipedia.  A huge number are rabidly
biased, probably an equal number to either side.  [[List of villages
destroyed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war]] is still there, despite
being listed on VfD several times, for example, and it hardly seems
worth listing it again, despite it being a biased collection of
unreliable data taken solely from a single openly biased source (some
site advocating the "right of return" for Palestinians displaced in the
1948 war).

-Mark


subject: [Wikitech-l] Greek wikipedia with monobook still (half) broken

body:
Andreas Kasenides wrote:
> Can somebody please look into this?
> This was adaquately described by Timwi on this list and I include the
> final message from the discussion. I certainly tried to correct the
> problem with
> reediting and correcting the offending messages but alas!
> This behaviour appears only in the new monobook interface, it works
> correctly
> if  the user switches to other styles.

Okay, I managed to track this one down... turns out it's actually a PHP
bug, which is triggered by the use of the htmlentities() function in the
PHPTal template engine. PHP 4.3.7, released about a week ago, lists this
as a bug fix for that release, but I've worked around it temporarily by
switching to htmlspecialchars() which doesn't mess with the main part of
the text.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Viajero

body:
This evening, I chanced upon the following article:

  [[Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict]]

How is it possible, with all our well-formulated theories of NPOV and our vigilant editors, that such an horrendous text remains on the wikipedia? I have listed it on VfD (but it appears that it has been there before).

I am disgusted.

V.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikipedia logo

body:
Under which license is released wikipedia logo ?
We have a publication of ad planned in a french journal, and currently,
it mentions it is copyrighted. On meta, I see it is not PD image, but it
is unclear whether it is gfdl or not.
May someone help ?
thanks a lot

ant


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon

body:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Your dependance on Paramount's position implies that they have a right
> to grant such a permission.  If the material is not copyrightable, then
> what Paramount says does not matter.  We can go ahead without their
> permission.

This is Paramount we're talking about, they have a long history of taking
legal action against unauthorized books and websites related to startrek.
So even if they don't have copyright, as long as they claim that they do
we should not have a klingon wikipedia, unless we are prepared to fight
them in court.

Imran
--
http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikipedia logo Nohat

body:
Found the mail

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikifr-l/2004-June/001702.html

At the bottom, there is a link to a jpeg low resolution image of an ad
which will be run in a linux journal.

The picture mentions that the logo is copyrighted, is that correct ?

Do we need Nohat permission for this ?


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
This user has taken to calling me "Troll", and dismissing me w such in talk pages.
I find this to be an offensive presonal attack.
When I request for him to discuss this with me or change the behaviour, he deletes my request.
"removing troll" is the edit summary.
What is to be done w this sort of harassment?

Jack

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The most personalized portal on the Web!


from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikipedia logo Nohat

body:
I expect that using the logo for advertising Wikipedia would come
under fair use/fair dealing. A related question though would be
whether the Foundation should be approving advertising before it is
sent out.

Angela.

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:10:29 +0200, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Found the mail
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikifr-l/2004-June/001702.html
>
> At the bottom, there is a link to a jpeg low resolution image of an ad
> which will be run in a linux journal.
>
> The picture mentions that the logo is copyrighted, is that correct ?
>
> Do we need Nohat permission for this ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>