body:
Hello,

MilchFlasche?? wrote:
> they are all transcribed in hanzi. I myself would like to see several
> whole articles totally in Wu or Cantonese, just to stun me how hard it
> is for a Mandarin speaker to understand those languages.

Give me a topic and I might try (for Cantonese/Yue).

> What we should treat seriously is what Toytoy always claims: there's
> no need for vernaculars to be transcribed (he did said that), or at
> least be used in knowledge, since what Cantonese scripts are used for
> is to express vulgar speech or to publish gossip magazines.

Well, that is true. Currently there are quite a number novels, etc., in
Hong Kong that are written Cantonese, but not much.

> and in Hong Kong, a modern metropolis which stayed intact out of
> central control, Cantonese is not only used in popular publications,
> but also in almost all movie subtitles (I hope Cantonese friends could
> provide more usage of baihua in Hong Kong). So, stop the mirage of

Actually, I don't know why Mandarin speakers keep using the word
"baihua" to describe Yue/Cantonese. I've always viewed "baihua" as the
opposite of "wenyan" instead. So, "baihua" to me means the Mandarin
vernacular and nothing else.

Anyway, most movies are actually subtitled in the Mandarin vernacular.
Some kids movies from America and Japan are subtitled or dubbed in
Cantonese. But I don't know how to provide an example...

little Alex


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Urs C Muff

subject: [Wikitech-l] PHP IDE and debugger

body:
Hi folks,

What IDE and debugger are you using to work with MediaWiki's PHP?  And
what platform is that on?

Thanks a lot for you answer!

- Urs


list: wikien-l

from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
For me this goes back to Larry Sanger, who was always deleting my cites on
the basis that they were "bad". He went overboard, but frankly, some are bad
and we do the reader no favor by not saying so, in one way or another.

Fred

> From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:52:11 -0800
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] primary and secondary sources
>
> Tony Sidaway wrote:
>
>> Matt Brown said:
>>
>>
>>> It is definitely the case that we'd rather a bad cite than no cite.
>>>
>>>
>> I strongly disagree.  The only cites should be good cites.  Bad ones are
>> misleading and wasteful.  A good cite is easy enough to make: one that
>> accurately describes the cited material and relates it to the subjectmatter.
>> This latest fuss was, at bottom, over attempts by some of us to
>> transform a bad cite (a statement that a UN source said something that we
>> didn't know it said) into a good one (a statement that a secondary source
>> gave a figure and attributed it to a UN source).  The former would have
>> misled the reader, the latter would have given the reader more accurate
>> information.  As it turned out the cited UN source did not contain the
>> information, but another UN source did.  The secondary source proved to be
>> in error so the inference drawn from it was incorrect in a small but
>> significant detail.
>>
>>
> I would be more supportive of Matt's position.  When you try to divide
> citations into "good cites" and "bad cites" you make a determination
> which should also be subject to the "cite your sources" rule.  Rather
> than proposing that one source or the other would have misled the
> reader, we would do better in such circumstances to cite both sources,
> and let the reader decide which misleading he prefers to follow.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up

body:
Angela a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:

>>Baf
>>http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Baf
>>Will probably not be a very strong participant here given the number of
>>recent edits;
>
>
> 165 edits since the start of last month. Is this not enough? How many
> edits are people supposed to make before they are allowed to vote for
> a Wikinews?

And about 25 edits in the past 30 days, basically all of them being
adding categories.

>> Manu
>>
>>http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Manu
>>No participation since october
>
>
> That's because he's changed username:
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Emmanuel_legrand
> 75 edits since the start of last month
>
> Was not counted anyway.

Fair enough.
Should be counted

>
>>DCLXVI
>>http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=DCLXVI
>>Less than 50 edits. Is bulgarian.
>
>
> Has almost 1500 edits on bg.

Then he can certainly participate to the bulgarian wikinews.

>>159753
>>http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=159753
>>2 edits
>
>
> Also has around 800 edits on en.

Then he can certainly participate to the english wikinews.

 >There were also six people who voted in support of Wikinews on the
 >French voting page but did not list themselves on the new page.

True, but a supporter does not mean the person will participate.

Just as someone can participate now and be not listed on supporters of
course

 >How many edits do users need to have? I'm very surprised you think
 >that 160 edits in 2 months is not enough. What more do they need
 >before a Wikinews can be created?

When the editor has 160 in 2 months, but only about a dozen in the past
month, I basically consider that he will not contribute.

When the editor has 800 edits in another language, it is not exactly an
argument to me to show he will participate in french.

You have the option to list yourself on this page, and you have
thousands of edits on dozen of wikis, so according to what your opinion
is of whose vote should be counted, this would count as a "approval"
amongst the 5 people.

The truth is that even if we count your vote, I am ready to eat my socks
if you become a participant adding content and setting up policies on
the french wikinews Angela.

So, the minimum for an editor vote to be acceptable would be that this
editor speaks french and participate in decent amount to any french
speaking project.

No ?

> How many edits do users need to have? I'm very surprised you think
> that 160 edits in 2 months is not enough. What more do they need
> before a Wikinews can be created?

The question is

Do we want a wikinews to be created in one particular language, because
1 editor from bg, one editor from en, one editor from fr, and a couple
of minor editors makes it a round 5.

Or do we want to build a real project, with real content, with true
quality, reliability and fairness to be set ?

The wikinews is not as the other wikimedia projects. It is under public
scrutiny.

For all interviews I gave since december, the question of a french
wikinews is raised. Journalists are terribly curious of this, and nearly
each of them put a very critical look on the english version.

I do not want to have to answer to any of these journalists, "yes, we
have a wikinews in french, yes, I agree, it is currently crap but please
consider it as a great reflect of what we can do as a community".

This is the first point.
If editors want to start a wikinews, good, but at least, as long as it
is basically a bunch of isolated pages with no rules, the minimum we can
do is to indicate it is not a real ressource, but an experiment. This in
particular important as wikinews was not supported by french community
overall, and has only a couple of interested editors listed.
As is, it will damage our public image, and on top of damaging it, the
decision of setting it up has been made by involving non french editors
with no clear support from the local community.
To me, this is a clear example of pushing too hard.
We did not want it generally. We are not ready for it. But as long as
Eric wants it, you want it and a bunch of hardly participating editors
want it, then we should have it. My apologies here Angela, but I just
cannot feel happy about this. I do not believe this was a fair decision.

You knew there was no clear support. You knew it would be controversial.

There are some moves which are just a little bit too bold.
Given the situation, it would have been nice to talk to french editors
before hand.

The second point :
This example is for me a clear example where it is no use expecting that
agreements are kept and respected fairly.

Obviously, there will be some editors to participate. Obviously it will
not be locked.

But now that the rule of 5 editors has not been respected, we could
possibly have the rule of mentionning the site is only a demo respected.

If nothing of the initial agreement is respected, then it is really of
no importance to discuss things. Let us just vote without discussion and
trying to find some consensus on things, and just say "the majority rules".

This will set a more clear direction for all our new projects at least.

> Elian wrote:
>
>>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Vote/Zh
>>
>>Are you sure that this is a good idea? IMO it's questionable if a wiki
>>should really be set up if a clear majority voted against the creation
>>of wikinews, especially with the concerns raised there.
>
>
> People were voting for the project as a whole then, not for individual
> language versions. Now Wikinews exists, views of whether a new
> language should be added may well change.

Just as the rule of the minimum 5 could change
Just as the rule the board should approve the new site for it not to be
marked demo could change.

Just as we just do not need to discuss things.
we can decide things and change rules after the decision is taken.

Sorry, but here, I think I have been cheated all along.

There is no such thing as community build project if a couple of people
can change rules when they feel like it.


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWYG editor

body:
Hi all,

I would like to collect a list of dev's that want to contribute to a
WYSIWYG effort for MediaWiki.  Please contact me on or off list, and we
can talk about the options.  If you are interested please have a look
that for following resources:

    * Article on Meta: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG_editor
    * Article on c2.com: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WysiwygWiki

Your response is appreciated,

- Urs


from_name: steven l. rubenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] Daniel P.B. Smith/Citing Sources

body:
I just want to thank Daniel for one of the sanest, clearest explanations
for our cite sources policy.  If he has not already made suggestions on the
talk page for "cite sources" I hope he will because I think incorporating
into the policy at least some on what he wrote would be an important
improvement.

Steve

Steven L. Rubenstein
Associate Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Illegitimate block.

body:
Robert Brookes stated for the record:

> Sean,
>
> Thanks for this reply. I will use it for comparitive
> purposes with the AC as you see I once made a very
> similar post about someone else and that is now being
> cited as a personal attack by me. As your reply could
> not possibly be a personal attack ... then neither
> could mine, yes?
>
> Robert

Please do.  I have the utmost faith in the ability of the ArbComm
members to discern the differences.

--
  Sean Barrett     | I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.
  sean at epoptic.com |


body:
Angela a ?crit:

>>DCLXVI
>>http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=DCLXVI
>>Less than 50 edits. Is bulgarian.
>
>
> Has almost 1500 edits on bg.

Interesting comment from DCLXVI on irc channel just 2 minutes ago

   DCLXVI: :)
AntGOne: as tu l intention de participer a wikinews ?
DarkonekOQP: qui .?
*** DarkonekOQP is now known as Darkoneko
AntGOne: DCLXVI
Darkoneko: ah
AntGOne: vu que son vote a ete compte comme participant
AntGOne: il va falloir qu il assume
AntGOne: il assume fort :-)
Darkoneko: ?a se vois
   DCLXVI: AntGOne mon francais n'est pas assez bon pour contribuer :(
              ChtiTux is back (gone 00:39:11)
*** hegesippe (hegesippe at dyn-213-36-154-31.ppp.tiscali.fr) joined
#fr.wikipedia
*** Guillaumito has signed off ("Leaving")
*** soufron has signed off (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
AntGOne: pourquoi t es tu liste comme contributeur alors ?
    DCLXVI: parce que je vais faire des efforts por mettre des
informations concernant Bulgarie :D
    DCLXVI: si c'est pas un probleme, bien sur


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: harry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "censorship" On Wikipedia

body:
Without Prejudice

I attempted to post info on Wikipedia on the HIV=AIDS controversy - at
first my post was censored - then totally remove!

What I posted was info from  Dr. Kary Mullis, a biochemist who was
awarded the Nobel Prize For Chemistry - he invented the polymerase
chain reaction (PCR), a central technique in molecular biology which
allows the amplification of specified DNA sequences. I wonder how many
inventions or Nobel Prizes the Wilkipedia censor(s) have?

Dr. Kary Mullis states that there is not one scientific study published
in a scholarly journal with peer review the shows that "HIV is the
probable cause of AIDS" (notice PROBABLE). In Mullis book 'Dancing
Naked In The Mind Field" - Mullis states:

"I was going to a lot of meetings and conferences as part of my job. I
got in the habit of approaching anyone who gave a talk about AIDS and
asking him or her what reference I should quote for that increasingly
problematic statement, "HIV is the probable cause of AIDS."
After ten or fifteen meetings over a couple of years, I was getting
pretty upset when no one could site the reference. I didn't like the
ugly conclusion that was forming in my mind: The entire campaign
against a disease increasingly regarded as a twentieth- century Black
Plague was based on a hypothesis whose origins no one could recall.
That defied both scientific and common sense.

"Finally I had an opportunity to question one of the giants in HIV and
AIDS research, Dr. Luc Montagnier of the Pasteur Institute, when he
gave a talk in San Diego. It would be the last time I would be able to
ask my little question without showing anger, and I figured Montagnier
would know the answer. So I asked him.
With a look of condescending puzzlement, Montagnier said, "Why don't
you quote the report from the Centers for Disease Control?"
I replied, "It doesn't really address the issue of whether or not HIV
is the probable cause of AIDS does it?"
"No," he admitted, no doubt wondering when I would just go away. He
looked for support to the little circle of people around him, but they
were all awaiting a  more definitive response, like I was.
"Why don't you quote the work on SIV [Simian Immunodeficiency Virus]?"
the good doctor offered.
"I read that too, Dr. Montagnier," I responded. "What happened to those
monkeys didn't remind me of AIDS. Besides, that paper was just
published only a couple of months ago. I'm looking for the original
paper where somebody showed that HIV caused AIDS."
This time, Dr. Montagnier's response was to walk quickly away to greet
an acquaintance across the room. "

First of all, can your censors give me a reference to one (just one)
scientific study published in a scholarly journal with peer review the
shows that "HIV is the probable cause of AIDS"? If they can't, then all
of the dis-information on HIV=AIDS needs to removed from Wikipedia.

At the same time - your censors stated that Mullis's views on HIV+AIDS,
is in the minority (that most scientists believe that HIV is the
probable cause of AIDS) - again can I see the statistical reference -
that is, a scientific study published in a scholarly journal with peer
review  to that claim?

I am interesting in sponsoring a live audio debate (in aacPlus codec)
on the WWW - with Dr. Kary Mullis and anyone one of Wikipedia
"censors" or so-called "experts" on HIV=AIDS, I am sure that we would
have thousands of listeners (from readers of Wikipedia and other news
sources) - what date and time would "you" prefer for this debate so
that I can finalize arrangements with Dr. Mullis.

- Harry Pasternak


from_name: Robert Jones

subject: [Wikitech-l] wikipedia/Special:Export - conversion of img paths

body:
> What's the explanation for "thumb/5/54" in the example above?
> Are there rules for conversion?

It's based on the MD5 hash of the image name. The MD5 Hash of
"150px-Flag_de-berlin_civil_300px.png" is 5490af54dffb956a9455f50a1f954eee.
The first folder is the first character, and the sub-folder is the first 2
characters.


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Anthere schrieb:

> I would appreciate greatly that when you create a new wikinews, you
> take care of updating the wikinews page, which is currently stating
> that only en and de exist.

No, it accurately lists all Wikinews sites. The section you cite only
served as an example for the naming structure to be used, not as a
complete list of Wikinews sites. That list is right at the beginning, at

    http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews#Wikinews_sites

and I updated it after the creation of the wikis. There's obviously no
point to maintaining two such lists on the same page.

> I do not see where these steps are respected here. In particular, I do
> not see the names of the five regular editors supporting the french
> version.

Much of your discussion with Angela centers around what qualification is
sufficient in order to be counted as a likely participant in the
project. Now, a lot can be said about this subject, but please remember
that we haven't had this discussion yet -- this is the first time these
actual, formal criteria are being discussed. The only thing that is
stated on the Wikinews page is

    "Before a Wikinews language version is officially recognized as a
    Wikimedia project, and before the first sysop can be appointed,
    there must at least be 5 participants. "

The requirement stated on the proposed "Policy for New Languages" page is:

    "There needs to be at least 5 users pledged to start up the wiki."

That page also states that there needs to be a "reporter", but this
seems to be particularly controversial, so I have omitted it from the
Wikinews requirements.

Now, should we go by a) or b)? If we go by a), then we should wait with
"recognizing" the French, Swedish and Spanish editions as Wikinews
projects until they have the required number of active participants. I'm
happy to do that, though I am not quite sure what it means in practice.
If we go by b), then, given that the formal requirements of a valid
pledge have never been defined, it's a bit late to complain about the
projects being approved now. You had plenty of time to state on the
"Wikinews/Start a new edition" page or its discussion page if you
thought that a certain amount of editing on the French Wikipedia was
needed to make a valid pledge for a French Wikinews, for instance.

Personally, I think that we should assume good faith, make sure that the
instructions on the page are clear, and count pledges from users who
obviously exist. To simplify the counting process, I have only counted
users with pages on Meta, but I am sure that there are some more real
users who voted for the French Wikinews and who don't have a Meta user
page. There are plenty of potential Wikinews contributors who have no
interest in contributing to an encyclopedia, a quote collection or a
dictionary. I think it would be unfair to discount their pledges.

But, again, I am perfectly happy to withdraw official recognition from
the newly created Wikinews editions until they have reached the required
number of participants. If this is what you want, please outline the
steps you deem necessary for such a withdrawal of recognition to take place.

> My personal opinion Erik. I did not approve wikinews because I felt it
> would be biaised and it would divide the community strength. Also, the
> majority of french editors did not support it.

True, but we all agreed that the Wikinews vote was for the project as a
whole, not for individual languages. Also remember that many users from
individual languages voted on the large English voting page, rather than
the translated subpage.

> This is why some mandatory steps were added to try to limit the risk
> of us having a baised project. To ensure enough support would exist
> for each individual project.

No, this is not the history. These steps were actually defined before
the vote even took place.

> In setting up a new wikinews without following these rules

I did follow the rules. You are now interpreting them to say I didn't,
but the requirements you say exist (e.g. "> x edits on Wikipedia") were
never written down or even discussed. I'm happy to discuss how to
proceed further, and am willing to work with you and the rest of the
Board in assuring that the creation of the new Wikinews editions will be
smooth and will not disrupt existing projects. Please describe what you
think should be done next.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: John Lee

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Illegitimate block.

body:
Robert Brookes wrote:

>
>
>That's what they said way back then. What's a brick
>through a shop window? The time to get worried is when
>they start rounding up the Jews ...
>
>
A brick through a shop window costs the shop owner money and time to
repair. Blocking a disruptive editor for 24 hours will only hurt
Wikipedia if this editor has valid contributions; this editor can take
his time and effort elsewhere. See the difference?

>
>
>>If an
>>admin goes mad with power and bans you, it just
>>means you've got some spare
>>time in your day to browse webcomics or whatever.
>>Get some perspective.
>>
>>
>
>Some people are more equal than others then? I wonder
>what would happen if one of these gunslingers banned
>you?
>
>I have perspective. I try to live up to the promise
>that it must never happen again. I believe that
>whenever we see evidence of the beast rising out of
>the human breast we must stand up and be counted ...
>even if we get knocked down in the process. I am
>prepare to stand and be counted ... are you?
>
>
>
Oh please. Where is the proof admins have been abusing their powers? If
you have a real case, take it to RFC. If you don't, stop spamming the
mailing list with your conspiracy theories.

John Lee
([[User:Johnleemk]])


from_name: Shane Gilchrist Ó hEorpa

subject: [Wikipedia-l] sign.wikepedia.org?

body:
David,

At the moment, very little - but its slowly growing at the moment.

Shane

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-
> bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of David Gerard
> Sent: 28 January 2005 14:57
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] sign.wikepedia.org?
>
> Shane Gilchrist ? hEorpa (shane.gilchrist.oheorpa at francismaginn.org)
> [050129 01:38]:
> > David Gerard:
> > > Shane Gilchrist ? hEorpa (shane.gilchrist.oheorpa at francismaginn.org)
> > > [050128 09:43]:
>
> > > > 3. There are 3 "sign-writing" systems out there - Sutton Writing
> System,
> > > > Stokoe Notation System and HamNoSys (Hamburg Notation System) but it
> is
> > > felt
> > > > that the Sutton one will become the most popular as its simple to
> use
> > > and
> > > > easy to use - whereas Stokoe and Hamnosys are more used by academics
> > > (deeper
> > > > note-keeping really)
>
> > > Can they be machine translated with usable accuracy? (Even as much as
> > > Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese?) That would help a *lot*!
>
> > (by machine) from English to the Sutton SignWriting - yeah - but from
> > SignWriting to English, I don?t think so.
> > It will take us a while before we can reach an agreement on this.
>
>
> I meant between each other - Simplified and Traditional Chinese are
> *mostly* a one-to-one correspondence between characters (with a few dodgy
> bits). Do the three sign systems have a 1-1 or mostly 1-1 correspondence?
>
>
> - d.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: MilchFlasche瑋平

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Individual Wikipedias for different Sinitic
	vernaculars (Cantonese debate) - update

body:
Hi Mark,

Ah no no no... I'm never a doubter more than Shizhao, Formulax or
others are ^^; I was just proposing providing several examples, since
I'm confident in them :) ; but for me, Cantonese texts can only be
seen when HKer comes to Taiwanese forums to post articles (and are
often "politely" asked to write in Mandarin instead:P) That's why I'm
not so familiar with them.
And Alex, I'm sorry that I was quite unsure about the terms I was
using. Okay now that I know it's inproper using "baihua". I would just
use "Cantonese" instead:)

[[zh:user:MilchFlasche]]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:18:04 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> And milchflasche, please be clear that I do not need an example for
> myself - I have already seen them and I am convinced well enough. I
> only requested an example to show doubters like you and shizhao that
> there really is a difference, contrary to what you may believe.
> Mark

--
2005, make signs happen!


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] sign.wikepedia.org?

body:
While this may be true in some parts of the world, many users of
Chinese Sign Language and Indian Sign Language do not have this
luxury.

Mark

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:08:26 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Shane Gilchrist ? hEorpa wrote:
>
> >Thanks to everyone for their contributions :-)
> >
> >1. there are many different subgroups that makes up the deaf community - but
> >often it's the national sign language that unites us.
> >
> >2. there are hundreds of different sign languages around the globe - that's
> >why I have asked for sign.wikipedia.org to put them together instead of us
> >asking for say, bsl.wikipedia.org, asl.wikipedia.org etc etc - it would be a
> >central point for sign languages - and once we go to sign.wikipedia.org we
> >can go into subgroups there in whatever group suits - for instance, there
> >would be a NISL section for Northern Ireland Sign Language community etc.
> >
> >It can be in any written languages or sign-writing systems - but the main
> >thing is that we need a central point for the national sign languages to be
> >in the same category - and it can help us build information up etc.
> >
> >3. There are 3 "sign-writing" systems out there - Sutton Writing System,
> >Stokoe Notation System and HamNoSys (Hamburg Notation System) but it is felt
> >that the Sutton one will become the most popular as its simple to use and
> >easy to use - whereas Stokoe and Hamnosys are more used by academics (deeper
> >note-keeping really)
> >
> One important factor to keep in mind in this debate is that the
> difficulty faced by deaf people is that they can't hear, not that they
> can't see. This suggests to me that a sign.wikipedia would not serve
> much of a purpose since the deaf can already read whatever language is
> used their own community.
>
> What would be more appropriate would be a sign.wiktionary where the
> kinds of problems that have been discussed here can be treated, and
> where cross-cultural and crass-language uses of the same sign can be
> clarified. The traditional hand-alphabets are only a tiny part of
> sign-language. In our ordinary techniques for teaching a first language
> to children we do not insist that they learn the alphabet before thay
> can be allowed to speak.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Zigger

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bookmarklet for bugzilla

body:
I just discovered a useful bookmarklet for finding similar open bugs
in bugzilla.  While it won't automagically find & close duplicates, it
works better than my memory and saves keystrokes.

javascript:void(document.location.href='http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&product='+encodeURIComponent(document.getElementById('product').value)+'&content='+encodeURIComponent(document.getElementsByName('short_desc').item(0).value)+'&bug_status=__open__')

Credit: http://www.justdave.net/dave/article.php?story=20040905225321748

-- Zigger


from_name: NSK

subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
On Saturday 29 January 2005 13:55, Catherine Munro wrote:
> * Proposed

Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with
Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/

Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Anthere schrieb:
>
>> I would appreciate greatly that when you create a new wikinews, you
>> take care of updating the wikinews page, which is currently stating
>> that only en and de exist.
>
>
> No, it accurately lists all Wikinews sites. The section you cite only
> served as an example for the naming structure to be used, not as a
> complete list of Wikinews sites. That list is right at the beginning, at
>
>    http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews#Wikinews_sites

I thank you and Angela for the edits made today, which clarifies this.

> and I updated it after the creation of the wikis. There's obviously no
> point to maintaining two such lists on the same page.
>
>> I do not see where these steps are respected here. In particular, I do
>> not see the names of the five regular editors supporting the french
>> version.
>
>
> Much of your discussion with Angela centers around what qualification is
> sufficient in order to be counted as a likely participant in the
> project. Now, a lot can be said about this subject, but please remember
> that we haven't had this discussion yet -- this is the first time these
> actual, formal criteria are being discussed. The only thing that is
> stated on the Wikinews page is
>
>    "Before a Wikinews language version is officially recognized as a
>    Wikimedia project, and before the first sysop can be appointed,
>    there must at least be 5 participants. "
>
>
> The requirement stated on the proposed "Policy for New Languages" page is:
>
>    "There needs to be at least 5 users pledged to start up the wiki."
>
> That page also states that there needs to be a "reporter", but this
> seems to be particularly controversial, so I have omitted it from the
> Wikinews requirements.
>
> Now, should we go by a) or b)? If we go by a), then we should wait with
> "recognizing" the French, Swedish and Spanish editions as Wikinews
> projects until they have the required number of active participants. I'm
> happy to do that, though I am not quite sure what it means in practice.
> If we go by b), then, given that the formal requirements of a valid
> pledge have never been defined, it's a bit late to complain about the
> projects being approved now. You had plenty of time to state on the
> "Wikinews/Start a new edition" page or its discussion page if you
> thought that a certain amount of editing on the French Wikipedia was
> needed to make a valid pledge for a French Wikinews, for instance.
>
> Personally, I think that we should assume good faith, make sure that the
> instructions on the page are clear, and count pledges from users who
> obviously exist. To simplify the counting process, I have only counted
> users with pages on Meta, but I am sure that there are some more real
> users who voted for the French Wikinews and who don't have a Meta user
> page. There are plenty of potential Wikinews contributors who have no
> interest in contributing to an encyclopedia, a quote collection or a
> dictionary. I think it would be unfair to discount their pledges.

Admittedly, I thought only regular editors pledge would count. Not
pledges of editors who have hardly been participated at all, or pledges
by editors who hardly speak the language. It does not matter if the
editor has no meta page (though it really would help).
We can make a precision about how 5 editors are "counted" on the talk page.

> But, again, I am perfectly happy to withdraw official recognition from
> the newly created Wikinews editions until they have reached the required
> number of participants. If this is what you want, please outline the
> steps you deem necessary for such a withdrawal of recognition to take place.

We cant really withdraw what already exist. It really would not be kind
to the few editors who started. I am happier with a project starting
even with one person, but be considered beta until at least 5 editors
and the major rules have been defined.

>> My personal opinion Erik. I did not approve wikinews because I felt it
>> would be biaised and it would divide the community strength. Also, the
>> majority of french editors did not support it.
>
>
> True, but we all agreed that the Wikinews vote was for the project as a
> whole, not for individual languages. Also remember that many users from
> individual languages voted on the large English voting page, rather than
> the translated subpage.

True.
Still, even in counting both pages, wikinews was rejected by the
majority of french editors. This suggests that wikinews should have only
been started with strong pledges.

Also, before being official, it would be nice that the main page report
the real approved goal of the project.
This is not the case on the french Wikipedia right now.

>> This is why some mandatory steps were added to try to limit the risk
>> of us having a baised project. To ensure enough support would exist
>> for each individual project.
>
> No, this is not the history. These steps were actually defined before
> the vote even took place.

So... Euh... why are they no more valid now ?

>> In setting up a new wikinews without following these rules
>
>
> I did follow the rules. You are now interpreting them to say I didn't,
> but the requirements you say exist (e.g. "> x edits on Wikipedia") were
> never written down or even discussed. I'm happy to discuss how to
> proceed further, and am willing to work with you and the rest of the
> Board in assuring that the creation of the new Wikinews editions will be
> smooth and will not disrupt existing projects. Please describe what you
> think should be done next.

The requirements of 5 editors existed. I did not even begin to imagine
an editor with for example less 50 edits, all being categories addition
would be considered in this case a pledged editor...
This was my mistake.

My other mistake is to have imagined that a project would only been
considered fully official, only after a little bit of setting up. If
only putting the real goal on the main page.
I obviously understand wrongly this was not a requirement.

I am glad a beta logo has now been put on the site.
I will try to find time now so as to ensure the proper goal is defined
in french, as well as basic rules set up.

For now, the rules are by default the same ones than on wikipedia, so I
do not see the interest of both being separated. But I already see
suggestions that current news be removed from fr.

> Regards,
>
> Erik

I thank you for answering me and acknowledging my concerns.

I think... it is particularly difficult for me to see that the french
wikinews was created while the majority of french editors did not
support it, even though most probably still think it is too early, even
though the 5 editors requirement is not here. What I fear is in
particular that wikinews will be known as early as next week by french
journalists, who will discover a totally new and empty wiki. I do not
think this will be good image. And given the number of editors willing
to work on it, I know that contrarywise to then english or deutsch
wikinews, it will grow slowly. I would not be so disappointed if say 25
people had expressed their desire to go for it, as I know we would soon
see something.

The situation is quite different from other new projects which raise
less interest amongst journalists, or for wikipedia when it started
(since it raised no interest at all from french journalists).

So, I really think it is too early, and when I point out to this, I find
it real tough to be answered that all my beliefs about the approval
steps and the 5 editors requirement, are not correct. It makes me feel
like I never tried to discuss this proposal and never understood it.

So, I get upset upon my comments not being acknowledged. Angela, allow
me please to offer you my apologies for my rudeness on irc.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Good cites and bad cites

body:
I fear that the way this contrast is set up, we could never reach agreement
on a good policy.  Of course no cite is better than a bad cite, because we
do not want to give credibility to unreliable sources, or even direct
people there way.  The problem is there are many citations where people
will vociferously argue whether they are good or bad.

I think the only way to proceed is to instead distinguish between
"controversial cites" and "uncontroversial cites."  Both can be provided;
if a cite is controversial we simply explain what the nature of the
controversy is (something we are all well-practiced in doing already, to
comply with the NPOV policy in writing articles.

S

Steven L. Rubenstein
Associate Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701


from_name: Arno M

subject: [WikiEN-l] Netesq stuff

body:
Hi, for the interest of all, I cannto refrain from
presenting the following to you. They involve our dear
friend netesq who is once again
demonstrating his great IR skills in what amount to flame
wars , whilst promoting wikipedia at the same time.

I stumbled onto them today :

http://donotgo.com/Blogs/netart.htm

http://roppers.com/Blogs/netart3.htm

--
_______________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


from_name: Edward Peschko

subject: [Wikitech-l] alternatives to dbg

body:
hey all,

this isn't directly on topic, but it does relate to mediawiki..

What do people use for a command-line IDE in debugging mediawiki, aside
from dbg (http:/dd.cron.ru/dbg)

I've just about given up on the command line debugger there - and was wondering
whether php has any plans on integrating one into the php-suite, as perl does..

Ed


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] Heavy Metal Umlaut, the movie

body:
While googling for mentions of our featured articles, I found this:

Jon Udell (http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/)
at Infoworld has put together a flash movie (8 megs, about 9 minutes long)
about the life cycle of the Wikipedia article on Heavy Metal Umlaut (which
is, I
might add, a featured article).

So without further ado, check out Heavy Metal Umlaut, the movie -
http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/umlaut.html

--Mark


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] alternatives to dbg

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Edward Peschko wrote:
| What do people use for a command-line IDE in debugging mediawiki, aside
| from dbg (http:/dd.cron.ru/dbg)

Mostly I just try to stick in a stack trace at fatal errors (as a
general rule, using wfDebugDieBacktrace()) and occasionally slip in a
temporary var_dump to see additional variable state. Crude, yes.

| I've just about given up on the command line debugger there - and was
wondering
| whether php has any plans on integrating one into the php-suite, as
perl does..

Zend (the developer of PHP) sells a proprietary, commercial IDE with an
integrated debugger. Honestly I doubt they're interested in cutting into
that market by integrating debugging tools into the open-source PHP
core. They've so far kept bytecode caching out of the standard PHP
distribution as well.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFB/EcVwRnhpk1wk44RAukbAJ0a6CUwmG+eklpPB85h9UE6SCQpAgCfX3Me
8VyucZLIyfw+Mx+sR36q9rg=
=n18h
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikitech-l] Rendering math question

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tom Troceen wrote:
| I have just installed my first wiki.  I can't get the rendering math to
| work.  I have it set to always use png.  I also tried all the other
| options.  Any places that are good to trouble shoot a wiki on the web?
| Does anyonw know what the problem could be.

Please check past messages on the mailing lists on the subject for tips.
Use Google and add site:mail.wikipedia.org to the query to restrict the
search to our mailing lists.

Don't forget to read math/README as well.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFB/EdhwRnhpk1wk44RAgMsAKDfAJ6pdgpMqTxS11bV+JS7pbEYYACeJnvh
BiZ4HDsNesIv0oyuI79DpaA=
=PMNz
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from_name: Stacey Greenstein

body:
Fascinating, and fantastic! :)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:20:22 -0500, Mark Pellegrini
<mapellegrini at comcast.net> wrote:
> While googling for mentions of our featured articles, I found this:
>
> Jon Udell (http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/)
> at Infoworld has put together a flash movie (8 megs, about 9 minutes long)
> about the life cycle of the Wikipedia article on Heavy Metal Umlaut (which
> is, I
> might add, a featured article).
>
> So without further ado, check out Heavy Metal Umlaut, the movie -
> http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/umlaut.html
>
> --Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] minor patch to mycontributions special page

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Frank v Waveren wrote:
| I've decided to take a stab at hacking mediawiki (hacking at articles
| is '''so''' pass?), and in the interest of starting small, here's a
| fix for special:Mycontributions, which is otherwise broken on a clean
| default install.
|
| I'm not sure how to find out whether the FullURL already contains a ?,
| so I'm cheating and using the (much prettier) / syntax instead. I
| assume that doesn't give any other problems?

Thanks! However this patched version would still break on usernames
containing either & or ? (depending on the $wgArticlePath style used),
and may break on those containing a space or some other illegal URL
characters.

I've just made a couple of fixes to the original version:

* First, any additional URL parameters should be passed as the first
parameter to Title::getLocalURL() or Title::getFullURL() instead of
appended on afterwards. The method will use a & or ? as appropriate, so
the calling code doesn't need to choose.

* Second, URL parameters always need to be escaped using the urlencode()
function to ensure that they do not get mangled. (If you have a lot of
paremeters, the wfArrayToCGI() function will transform and encode an
associative array of key => value pairs. If you have just one it's
easier to do it manually.)

The Special:Pagename/Parameter format is more attractive for simple
one-parameter cases but might not be totally reliable due to enforcement
of the title length limit. Very long names could hit the limit on the
combined name and then not go through at all. I'm not sure how big of a
problem this would really be, but remember that the limit is in bytes.
Many Asian characters take 3 bytes each in UTF-8 encoding, and this is
particularly onerous for indic alphabets.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Rendering math question

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tom Troceen wrote:
| Should this type of math formating just work as soon as I installed
| mediawiki, or am i missing a file or something??

No, you must:
* Ensure that all the requisite external programs are installed and in
the PATH.
* Compile texvc or install an executable that's already been compiled.
* Enable TeX support in LocalSettings.php

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] "censorship" On Wikipedia

body:
I believe this mail belongs at enwiki-l.

Mark

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:06:30 -0500, harry <harrypasternak at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Without Prejudice
>
> I attempted to post info on Wikipedia on the HIV=AIDS controversy - at
> first my post was censored - then totally remove!
>
> What I posted was info from  Dr. Kary Mullis, a biochemist who was
> awarded the Nobel Prize For Chemistry - he invented the polymerase
> chain reaction (PCR), a central technique in molecular biology which
> allows the amplification of specified DNA sequences. I wonder how many
> inventions or Nobel Prizes the Wilkipedia censor(s) have?
>
> Dr. Kary Mullis states that there is not one scientific study published
> in a scholarly journal with peer review the shows that "HIV is the
> probable cause of AIDS" (notice PROBABLE). In Mullis book 'Dancing
> Naked In The Mind Field" - Mullis states:
>
> "I was going to a lot of meetings and conferences as part of my job. I
> got in the habit of approaching anyone who gave a talk about AIDS and
> asking him or her what reference I should quote for that increasingly
> problematic statement, "HIV is the probable cause of AIDS."
> After ten or fifteen meetings over a couple of years, I was getting
> pretty upset when no one could site the reference. I didn't like the
> ugly conclusion that was forming in my mind: The entire campaign
> against a disease increasingly regarded as a twentieth- century Black
> Plague was based on a hypothesis whose origins no one could recall.
> That defied both scientific and common sense.
>
> "Finally I had an opportunity to question one of the giants in HIV and
> AIDS research, Dr. Luc Montagnier of the Pasteur Institute, when he
> gave a talk in San Diego. It would be the last time I would be able to
> ask my little question without showing anger, and I figured Montagnier
> would know the answer. So I asked him.
> With a look of condescending puzzlement, Montagnier said, "Why don't
> you quote the report from the Centers for Disease Control?"
> I replied, "It doesn't really address the issue of whether or not HIV
> is the probable cause of AIDS does it?"
> "No," he admitted, no doubt wondering when I would just go away. He
> looked for support to the little circle of people around him, but they
> were all awaiting a  more definitive response, like I was.
> "Why don't you quote the work on SIV [Simian Immunodeficiency Virus]?"
> the good doctor offered.
> "I read that too, Dr. Montagnier," I responded. "What happened to those
> monkeys didn't remind me of AIDS. Besides, that paper was just
> published only a couple of months ago. I'm looking for the original
> paper where somebody showed that HIV caused AIDS."
> This time, Dr. Montagnier's response was to walk quickly away to greet
> an acquaintance across the room. "
>
> First of all, can your censors give me a reference to one (just one)
> scientific study published in a scholarly journal with peer review the
> shows that "HIV is the probable cause of AIDS"? If they can't, then all
> of the dis-information on HIV=AIDS needs to removed from Wikipedia.
>
> At the same time - your censors stated that Mullis's views on HIV+AIDS,
> is in the minority (that most scientists believe that HIV is the
> probable cause of AIDS) - again can I see the statistical reference -
> that is, a scientific study published in a scholarly journal with peer
> review  to that claim?
>
> I am interesting in sponsoring a live audio debate (in aacPlus codec)
> on the WWW - with Dr. Kary Mullis and anyone one of Wikipedia
> "censors" or so-called "experts" on HIV=AIDS, I am sure that we would
> have thousands of listeners (from readers of Wikipedia and other news
> sources) - what date and time would "you" prefer for this debate so
> that I can finalize arrangements with Dr. Mullis.
>
> - Harry Pasternak
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Tom Troceen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rendering math question

body:
Hi,

I have just installed my first wiki.  I can't get the rendering math to
work.  I have it set to always use png.  I also tried all the other
options.  Any places that are good to trouble shoot a wiki on the web?
Does anyonw know what the problem could be.

Thanks,

Tom


subject: [Wikipedia-l] An external link in [[Hubble Space Telescope]]

body:
Hello, I propose to include this link in [[Hubble Space Telescope]]. It's my
article from my site, which was republished on two other sites: Kuro5hin and
Code0range ( http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/1/22/13500/4359 ,
http://www.code0range.net/node/1078 ).

My article is about the lack of budget for the fourth servicing mission and it
includes an overview of the three past servicing missions, as well as an
introduction to the telescope. It received very positive comments on the
sites where it was republished and also on blogs.

The article is licensed under CreativeCommons, but if you would like to
incorporate material from it in Wikipedia, you may e-mail to discuss about a
GFDL version.

If you believe my article is informational, please feel free to use this link
or change it as you like:

*[http://portal.wikinerds.org/node/183 The end of Hubble Space Telescope?] -
article by Wikinerds Portal on the lack of budget for the fourth servicing
mission

Thanks,
--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


from_name: Urs C Muff

subject: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWYG editor

body:
NSK wrote:

>On Saturday 29 January 2005 20:59, Urs C Muff wrote:
>
>
>>WYSIWYG effort for MediaWiki.  Please contact me on or off list, and we
>>
>>
>
>This wouldn't be compatible with all browsers (I'm having Konqie in mind),
>would it?
>
>
There are HTML area controls that are compatible with IE 5.5+ and
Mozilla/Gecko based browser (including FireFox).  One of the compatible
and open source once is http://www.htmlarea.com.  But that is mentioned
in the original links I sent around.

- Urs


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>Urs C Muff <umuff71 at email.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>I would like to collect a list of dev's that want to contribute to a
>>WYSIWYG effort for MediaWiki.
>>
>Why do you think WYSIWYG effort is useful?  The current offering already
>does more harm than good.  Poeple adding [[weird]] [[links]] [[all]]
>[[the]] [[time]]...
>
>
>
Well some people will just not be able to get comfortable with markup,
even thought the markup is designed to be human friendly it is still
markup.  To open the application to more users a WYSIWYG editor will be
required (for us), and since this is open source and we are sharing
resources I would like to coordinate that effort.  Of course if I'm the
only one interested, I will just do it my way...

- Urs


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>Urs C Muff <umuff71 at email.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>I would like to collect a list of dev's that want to contribute to a
>>WYSIWYG effort for MediaWiki.
>>
>Why do you think WYSIWYG effort is useful?  The current offering already
>does more harm than good.  People adding [[weird]] [[links]] [[all]]
>[[the]] [[time]]...
>
>
>
Well some people will just not be able to get comfortable with markup,
even thought the markup is designed to be human friendly it is still
markup.  To open the application to more users a WYSIWYG editor will be
required (for us), and since this is open source and we are sharing
resources I would like to coordinate that effort.  Of course if I'm the
only one interested, I will just do it my way...

- Urs


from_name: Peter Danenberg

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

body:
> I would be happy to request this project name, as well as add anyone
> who is interested in becoming a developer or admin on the project.

     Fascinating,  Jonah;  I for one would like to help out,
having navigated limbo myself.

     We'd have to avoid becoming a ghetto for exiled  exten-
sions,  of  course;  which we could accomplish, I'm sure, by
quality of implementation.

--
Peter Danenberg                                           .
wikisophia.org                                           ..:


from_name: Robert Brookes

subject: [WikiEN-l] Requests_for_arbitration/Robert_the_Bruce

body:
--- John Lee <johnleemk at gawab.com> wrote:

> No, that you should stop spamming this mailing list
> and follow the
> dispute resolution procedure appropriately. We do
> not directly control
> the arbcom's decisions, so just point out the fact
> to them (which I
> believe you have done) and stop whining.
>
> John Lee
> ([[User:Johnleemk]])
>

I am attempting to follow the dispute resolution
procedure but the belligerent party refuses mediation.
You OK with that?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Rendering math question

body:
I searched the list and couldn't find any answers.  It's all pretty
techincal and I think I might just be overlooking something.  I think
this is a basic problem.  Shouldn't the math just work.  For example, my
a place whrere I'm using formulas and not showing up it here:

http://actuarialnews.relaxinstaugustine.com/wiki/index.php/Interest

Should this type of math formating just work as soon as I installed
mediawiki, or am i missing a file or something??

-Tom

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Tom Troceen wrote:
> | I have just installed my first wiki.  I can't get the rendering math to
> | work.  I have it set to always use png.  I also tried all the other
> | options.  Any places that are good to trouble shoot a wiki on the web?
> | Does anyonw know what the problem could be.
>
> Please check past messages on the mailing lists on the subject for tips.
> Use Google and add site:mail.wikipedia.org to the query to restrict the
> search to our mailing lists.
>
> Don't forget to read math/README as well.
>
> - -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (Darwin)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFB/EdhwRnhpk1wk44RAgMsAKDfAJ6pdgpMqTxS11bV+JS7pbEYYACeJnvh
> BiZ4HDsNesIv0oyuI79DpaA=
> =PMNz
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>


from_name: Matt Brown

body:
Mediation is not forcible.  An attempt to reach a solution through
mediation can be attempted, but it's anyone's right to decide that
they are not willing to go through it.

-Matt


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

body:
Urs C Muff <umuff71 at email.com> writes:

> I would like to collect a list of dev's that want to contribute to a
> WYSIWYG effort for MediaWiki.

Why do you think WYSIWYG effort is useful?  The current offering already
does more harm than good.  Poeple adding [[weird]] [[links]] [[all]]
[[the]] [[time]]...

--
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                           |      ,__o
                                                        |    _-\_<,
                                                        |   (*)/'(*)
Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4  AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C


subject: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWYG editor

body:
On Saturday 29 January 2005 20:59, Urs C Muff wrote:
> WYSIWYG effort for MediaWiki.  Please contact me on or off list, and we

This wouldn't be compatible with all browsers (I'm having Konqie in mind),
would it?

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting


subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:04 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with
> Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/
>
> Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.

Given that that document seems to state that much CSS2 works perfectly
fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor
percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because
Konqueror has some issues seems a bit over-the-top to me.

Of course, a work-around that doesn't tickle that particular Konqueror
bug would be preferable.

-Matt (User:Morven)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

body:
> I guess if I don't hear back from anyone, I will just try go ahead and
> register mediawiki-bizarre

     Nice; the original title of Eric Raymond's book, by the
way, was not "The  Cathedral  and  the  Bazaar";  but:  "The
Cathedral and the Agora".

     "Mediawiki-agora" would make a feat model.

--
Peter Danenberg                                           .
wikisophia.org                                           ..:


from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "censorship" On Wikipedia

body:
http://www.avert.org/evidence.htm

While in the early 1990's there were still questions about the
connection and mechanism of HIV and AIDS, over a decade of research has
provided the answers. Dr. Mullis guessed badly wrong on this one, and
citiations which are now 10 years out of date simply do not hold
weight, regardless of who made them at the time. There is now a
mountain of evidence that HIV is the necessary, though not always
sufficient, cause of AIDS.


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think... it is particularly difficult for me to see that the french
> wikinews was created while the majority of french editors did not
> support it, even though most probably still think it is too early, even
> though the 5 editors requirement is not here. What I fear is in
> particular that wikinews will be known as early as next week by french
> journalists, who will discover a totally new and empty wiki. I do not
> think this will be good image. And given the number of editors willing
> to work on it, I know that contrarywise to then english or deutsch
> wikinews, it will grow slowly. I would not be so disappointed if say 25
> people had expressed their desire to go for it, as I know we would soon
> see something.

I have to agree with Anthere here. Since there is a lot of overlap between
keeping the encyclopedia up to date and reporting on the news, there *must* be
a critical mass of people working on that type of thing already on Wikipedia
before it makes sense to have a separate news site.

So while Wikinews may very well coexist just fine in German and English while
not really harming updates to those corresponding encyclopedias, I'm not at all
convinced that this would work for language communities that have significantly
fewer editors. Thus the opinion of *those* language communities is paramount
and *must* be respected.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Good cites and bad cites

body:
steven l. rubenstein wrote

> I think the only way to proceed is to instead distinguish between
> "controversial cites" and "uncontroversial cites."

I don't want to pretend that the problems here are either slight or
unimportant.  But there seems to be a whole tangle here, about editors
wishing to prove points.

If one is not 'pushing the envelope' of what is easy to substantiate, with
quotations from mainstream sources, then there should be little practical
difficulty. Otherwise - well, a POV may be being pushed, or an article may
be being dragged onto contentious ground. Are we not seeing Wikipedians
trying to get beyond 'some say A, others B', by knocking down B?

Anyway, citations are a means to an end.  They are supposed to aid
fact-checkers, not to build up a case.  I realise that the debates that go
on do mean people think they must present a winning case on some matters. As
ever, though, that is not what we come here for.

Charles


body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Whether or not the majority of the people on Wikinews/Vote/Fr voted for
> or against the project is irrelevant. The project vote, as it was agreed
> by everyone involved, was an aggregated vote. The French Wikimedia
> community is part of the larger Wikimedia Foundation, which is an
> international organization. That organization has made the decision to
> launch the Wikinews project. It was only a matter of time until the
> French edition of that project was set up.

As has already been pointed out, Wikinews is a bit different than other
projects we have created before. This is due to a significant amount of overlap
between updating the encyclopedia and reporting on the news. Thus each language
community should be able to decide if they have the critical mass of editors
who do updates. If there are plenty already, then the few they lose to Wikinews
will not adversely effect the encyclopedia in that language (and may in fact
have a large net positive effect by making sure trivial current news does not
choke encyclopedia articles).

Above all else, new projects should do no harm to existing ones. Whether or not
this is now the case for any particular language community, is up to them.

Yes - I guess I am proposing an amendment to 'creating a new language version'
policy. The overlap in Wikinews makes this necessary, IMO.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


body:
--- Robert Brookes <the_robert_brookes at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 198.54.202.242

The last block (24 hours) for this IP was two days ago. It does not look to be
blocked anymore.

> So what to do about a belligerent who spurns
> mediation?

Since mediation is not a viable option right now, that question is irrelevant.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Jonah Bossewitch

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

body:
I am interested in discussing and hashing out the challenges of WYSIWYG
editing.  I also think that this kind of project is the kind of thing
that would make alot of sense to develop in a sourceforge project
dedicated to mediawiki extensions.

I know that MW extensions are talked about centrally here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Mediawiki_Extensions

but I am talking about a sf project where the source itself is kept,
and developers are granted access much more freely than on the
mediawiki project itself.  Extensions may eventually be merged into the
core distribution, or they could maintain a life of their own, used in
MW installations, but not on the 'pedia.

I brought this idea up once before, but nobody responded to my
suggestion.  Does that mean there is no interest?  How about a project
called mediawiki-extensions, or mediawiki-collective, or
mediawiki-bizarre (the last two might make more sense if we conceive of
this area as a collection of bot scripts, maintenance scripts, etc, in
addition to just extensions).  I would be happy to request this project
name, as well as add anyone who is interested in becoming a developer
or admin on the project.

Thoughts?

/Jonah

On Jan 29, 2005, at 10:25 PM, Urs C Muff wrote:

> Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>
>> Urs C Muff <umuff71 at email.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>> I would like to collect a list of dev's that want to contribute to a
>>> WYSIWYG effort for MediaWiki.
>>>
>> Why do you think WYSIWYG effort is useful?  The current offering
>> already
>> does more harm than good.  People adding [[weird]] [[links]] [[all]]
>> [[the]] [[time]]...
>>
>>
> Well some people will just not be able to get comfortable with markup,
> even thought the markup is designed to be human friendly it is still
> markup.  To open the application to more users a WYSIWYG editor will
> be required (for us), and since this is open source and we are sharing
> resources I would like to coordinate that effort.  Of course if I'm
> the only one interested, I will just do it my way...
>
> - Urs
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: John Lee

body:
Robert Brookes wrote:

>So what to do about a belligerent who spurns
>mediation?
>
>
>
Nothing. Just hope the Arbcom will recognise this and take it into
account; if you're lucky, they may drop the case.

John Lee
([[User:Johnleemk]])


subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>Catherine Munro (artslave at usa.net) [050129 22:55]:
>
>
>
>>I recently suggested a new design for the www.wikipedia.org portal, which
>>has since been developed by AlanBarrett and several others more talented
>>than I.   After some very positive feedback, another user has now put the
>>design up for a vote.  I would like to get full input from users of all
>>languages and browsers as this should definitely not be a decision made by
>>en: users alone.
>>
>>
>
>
>Has the new design been tested to degrade properly in ancient browsers? I
>know they're a vanishingly small proportion of popular browser usage
>surveys, but those are overwhelmingly US-centric. Picture Wikipedia on old
>computers, which would run old browsers. It needs to work for the poor as
>well.
>
>
>- d.
>
>
>
>
It works in lynx (a text-only browser), but the languages are not
ordered according to article number. Not a big deal, really.

John Lee
([[en:User:Johnleemk]])


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Good cites and bad cites

body:
One problem I've found with regard to citing sources is the current
lack of support in MediaWiki for automatically numbered footnotes.

There are a couple of controversial articles I've been involved in
editing for which I would like to go through with a fine toothed comb
citing sources. My job would be made much easier if I could use
automatically numbered footnotes in tandem with comprehensive templates
such as {{Web reference|title=|work=|URL=|date=|year=}}.

I'm betting that once there is such support we'll find a huge upsurge
in the quality of citing.

[[Wikipedia:Cite sources]]
[[Wikipedia:Footnote2#Proposed future enhancements - autogeneration]]

Christiaan


from_name: Jake Waskett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Good cites and bad cites

body:
Looks like a splendid idea. I was thinking about something similar just the
other day (I'm not a Wiki developer, but am a software engineer).

What would be good would be the ability to add a tag to references, so as long
as someone defined a tag somewhere in the page it could be references by
simply including that tag. This flexibility would mean that the software
would have to parse the text twice during page generation, unfortunately.
Adapting for Wiki, since mine was for a different document description
language, but it could work something like:

No definition: {{Web reference|title=|work=|URL=|date=|year=}}

Definition and first (or any) use: {{tag=Web reference|title=|work=|URL=|
date=|year=}}

Tag form: {{=tag}}

Feasibility could be demonstrated by writing a script that takes this form of
Wiki input and generates the current form of Wiki input. Should be a
relatively simple job. I might give it a whirl when the mood next takes me.

I would certainly use it.

Jake.

On Saturday 29 January 2005 23:23, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> One problem I've found with regard to citing sources is the current
> lack of support in MediaWiki for automatically numbered footnotes.
>
> There are a couple of controversial articles I've been involved in
> editing for which I would like to go through with a fine toothed comb
> citing sources. My job would be made much easier if I could use
> automatically numbered footnotes in tandem with comprehensive templates
> such as {{Web reference|title=|work=|URL=|date=|year=}}.
>
> I'm betting that once there is such support we'll find a huge upsurge
> in the quality of citing.
>
> [[Wikipedia:Cite sources]]
> [[Wikipedia:Footnote2#Proposed future enhancements - autogeneration]]
>
> Christiaan
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Good cites and bad cites

body:
Have a poke round [[Wikipedia:Footnotes]] Jake. There seems to be a lot
of this discussion going on there at present.

Christiaan

On 29 Jan 2005, at 11:39 pm, Jake Waskett wrote:

> Looks like a splendid idea. I was thinking about something similar
> just the
> other day (I'm not a Wiki developer, but am a software engineer).
>
> What would be good would be the ability to add a tag to references, so
> as long
> as someone defined a tag somewhere in the page it could be references
> by
> simply including that tag. This flexibility would mean that the
> software
> would have to parse the text twice during page generation,
> unfortunately.
> Adapting for Wiki, since mine was for a different document description
> language, but it could work something like:
>
> No definition: {{Web reference|title=|work=|URL=|date=|year=}}
>
> Definition and first (or any) use: {{tag=Web
> reference|title=|work=|URL=|
> date=|year=}}
>
> Tag form: {{=tag}}
>
> Feasibility could be demonstrated by writing a script that takes this
> form of
> Wiki input and generates the current form of Wiki input. Should be a
> relatively simple job. I might give it a whirl when the mood next
> takes me.
>
> I would certainly use it.
>
> Jake.
>
> On Saturday 29 January 2005 23:23, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
>> One problem I've found with regard to citing sources is the current
>> lack of support in MediaWiki for automatically numbered footnotes.
>>
>> There are a couple of controversial articles I've been involved in
>> editing for which I would like to go through with a fine toothed comb
>> citing sources. My job would be made much easier if I could use
>> automatically numbered footnotes in tandem with comprehensive
>> templates
>> such as {{Web reference|title=|work=|URL=|date=|year=}}.
>>
>> I'm betting that once there is such support we'll find a huge upsurge
>> in the quality of citing.
>>
>> [[Wikipedia:Cite sources]]
>> [[Wikipedia:Footnote2#Proposed future enhancements - autogeneration]]
>>
>> Christiaan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
That is really good. Come in handy when explaining to people what
Wikipedia is.

Christiaan

On 29 Jan 2005, at 11:34 pm, Stacey Greenstein wrote:

> Fascinating, and fantastic! :)
>
>
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:20:22 -0500, Mark Pellegrini
> <mapellegrini at comcast.net> wrote:
>> While googling for mentions of our featured articles, I found this:
>>
>> Jon Udell (http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/)
>> at Infoworld has put together a flash movie (8 megs, about 9 minutes
>> long)
>> about the life cycle of the Wikipedia article on Heavy Metal Umlaut
>> (which
>> is, I
>> might add, a featured article).
>>
>> So without further ado, check out Heavy Metal Umlaut, the movie -
>> http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/umlaut.html
>>
>> --Mark
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

body:
Excellent.

We have been working on a category selector widget, as well as an
accompanying category query form (searches for articles w/in
categories), and re-categorizer.  But WYSIWYG editing, and many of the
existing extensions would surely fit well here too.

I would sure appreciate it if some of the core MW developers weighed in
on this idea, since I would hope this effort would be set up with their
blessing (and occasional guidance and input).

Again, this model was used extremely successfully in the Plone world,
with their collective project (www.sf.net/projects/collective > 200
developers) and other sites serving to recommend and rate these
products.

Some folks might initially object to an "open" cvs project, where
everyone can in theory modify each other's work, but this concept
should not be very foreign to wikipedian's ;-)

I guess if I don't hear back from anyone, I will just try go ahead and
register mediawiki-bizarre

g'nite
/Jonah

On Jan 29, 2005, at 11:40 PM, Peter Danenberg wrote:

>> I would be happy to request this project name, as well as add anyone
>> who is interested in becoming a developer or admin on the project.
>
>
>      Fascinating,  Jonah;  I for one would like to help out,
> having navigated limbo myself.
>
>      We'd have to avoid becoming a ghetto for exiled  exten-
> sions,  of  course;  which we could accomplish, I'm sure, by
> quality of implementation.
>
> --
> Peter Danenberg                                           .
> wikisophia.org                                           ..:
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Copyright status of press releases

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>If you can approach the major press release bureaus and persuade them
>to release all their work, or some portion of it, under a free
>license, or if you can secure a direct release from individual
>companies who would like to do the same, then by all means we can
>surely publish these on wikisource.
>
>
My reaction as a Wikisource editor would be to ask a contributor to
substantiate his right to add the press release.  If he fails to do
anything about it within a reasonable time, it gets deleted.  Only the
contributor knows where he found the material, so the burden is on him
to establish the copyright status when it's questioned.

As much as I believe that there exist circumstances where we can and
should push the boundaries of copyright law, someone's ignorance of
copyright law is NOT one of them.

Ec


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
Catherine Munro (artslave at usa.net) [050129 22:55]:

> I recently suggested a new design for the www.wikipedia.org portal, which
> has since been developed by AlanBarrett and several others more talented
> than I.   After some very positive feedback, another user has now put the
> design up for a vote.  I would like to get full input from users of all
> languages and browsers as this should definitely not be a decision made by
> en: users alone.

Has the new design been tested to degrade properly in ancient browsers? I
know they're a vanishingly small proportion of popular browser usage
surveys, but those are overwhelmingly US-centric. Picture Wikipedia on old
computers, which would run old browsers. It needs to work for the poor as
well.

- d.


body:
Robert Brookes wrote:

>This state of affairs is lamentable. If mediation is
>indeed to be a part of the Wikipedia dispute
>resolution process then an effort must be made to keep
>the structures functioning. Pity fewer people seem
>willing to volunteer as mediators than are queuing in
>line to become administrators so they can block and
>ban people at will. Sad for Wikipedia.
>
A history of having successfully mediated the disputes of others could
be an interesting prerequisite for becoming an administrator.

Ec


from_name: notafish

body:
> Much of your discussion with Angela centers around what qualification is
> sufficient in order to be counted as a likely participant in the
> project. Now, a lot can be said about this subject, but please remember
> that we haven't had this discussion yet -- this is the first time these
> actual, formal criteria are being discussed. The only thing that is
> stated on the Wikinews page is
>
>     "Before a Wikinews language version is officially recognized as a
>     Wikimedia project, and before the first sysop can be appointed,
>     there must at least be 5 participants. "
>
> The requirement stated on the proposed "Policy for New Languages" page is:
>
>     "There needs to be at least 5 users pledged to start up the wiki."
>
> That page also states that there needs to be a "reporter", but this
> seems to be particularly controversial, so I have omitted it from the
> Wikinews requirements.

The least you could have done, Erik, is go fish for those five
"supporters" and ask them if they were ready to take care of the
project and all it implies. The "supporters" for the French Wikinews
voted more than two months ago... Wikinews fr could have waited
another week, since it had already waited 2 months. You "could" also
have put a note on the French Village pump, saying that according to
the "policy", you were about to set up a French Wikinews, to raise
awareness, give people time to get acquainted with the policies being
developped on en and de, give the French association time to write a
press release etc. I feel your decision is, yes, going "by the rules"
but completely unilateral. Wikinews is your project, you want to push
it, I understand this, but this is might harm it more than it might
help it.  Not very "wiki". My two cents.

Just to push my point, the announcement was made on the French Village
pump about 24 hours ago, to this moment, there are 15 registered users
on fr.wikinews, out of which 5 at least are non French speakers, 2 at
least (I am counting Anthere and myself) are there only to see "how it
goes", which leaves 8 people, out of which only two have substantially
contributed. You may argue that I don't give it time, sure, but
knowing the number of people who go through the French Village Pump, I
would hardly call this a success. And to emphasize this "feeling" let
me point here :
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro#fr:wikinews so
that you can see that the only substantial reactions to the
announcement (apart from that of Greudin who is all for it - and that
makes me happy, for he is indeed, a great contributor) and three have
started a wild vote for the suppression of the project. Again, my two
cents.

I personally feel you have just slapped the French wiki community in
the face by imposing on us something that we are not sure we want
"yet" and here I emphasize the "yet" as I am very aware that the
project could and *would* work regardless of what my opinion about it
is.

This said, Wikinews fr exists and there are no administrators (or none
that I can see) who could prevent/fight vandalism if that comes to
pass. What's the "policy" for this ? I'd like to know.

Regards,

Delphine


from_name: Frank v Waveren

body:
I've decided to take a stab at hacking mediawiki (hacking at articles
is '''so''' pass?), and in the interest of starting small, here's a
fix for special:Mycontributions, which is otherwise broken on a clean
default install.

I'm not sure how to find out whether the FullURL already contains a ?,
so I'm cheating and using the (much prettier) / syntax instead. I
assume that doesn't give any other problems?

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8

-------------- next part --------------
diff -urN phase3/includes/SpecialMycontributions.php /var/www/wiki/includes/SpecialMycontributions.php
--- phase3/includes/SpecialMycontributions.php	2005-01-27 20:50:34.000000000 +0100
+++ /var/www/wiki/includes/SpecialMycontributions.php	2005-01-30 02:33:53.000000000 +0100
@@ -9,6 +9,6 @@
 function wfSpecialMycontributions() {
 	global $wgUser, $wgOut;
 	$t = Title::makeTitle( NS_SPECIAL, 'Contributions' );
-	$wgOut->redirect ( $t->getFullURL().'&target='.$wgUser->getName() );
+	$wgOut->redirect ( $t->getFullURL().'/'.$wgUser->getName() );
 }
 ?>
\ No newline at end of file
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from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Delphine-

>The least you could have done, Erik, is go fish for those five
>"supporters" and ask them if they were ready to take care of the
>project and all it implies.
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition

"According to the proposed policy for wikis in new languages
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy_for_wikis_in_new_languages>, at
least 5 people have to express an interest in a language edition in
order for it to be created,"

This was the requirement. You had plenty of time to raise objections
against this requirement. You did not. I waited after the creation of
the Dutch Wikinews for objections before creating the other languages.
There were none. Now, as for the French Wikinews, we'll see how it comes
along. It should receive a fair chance as any other Wikimedia project.
Don't give me any rants about the state of the project after 24 hours of
existence.

Whether or not the majority of the people on Wikinews/Vote/Fr voted for
or against the project is irrelevant. The project vote, as it was agreed
by everyone involved, was an aggregated vote. The French Wikimedia
community is part of the larger Wikimedia Foundation, which is an
international organization. That organization has made the decision to
launch the Wikinews project. It was only a matter of time until the
French edition of that project was set up.

Now, if you want to formulate more strict requirements as part of the
policy for new languages, please be my guest and get involved in the
policy discussion on Meta. That is more productive than complaining
about decisions that have been made in accordance with previous
agreements and written policy.

Regards,

Erik


body:
NSK (nsk2 at wikinerds.org) [050130 04:59]:

> Hello, I propose to include this link in [[Hubble Space Telescope]]. It's my

This list is completely the wrong place for these messages. I suggest you
put them on the article talk pages; if no-one there objects in a week or
so, you may try putting them in the article. If people promptly delete
them, then you misjudged. Or is that too simple?

- d.


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
"a blanket ban on css2"? This is a single portal page we're talking
bout here, not all Wikimedia projects.

Mark

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:32:46 -0800, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:04 +0200, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> > Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with
> > Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/
> >
> > Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.
>
> Given that that document seems to state that much CSS2 works perfectly
> fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor
> percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because
> Konqueror has some issues seems a bit over-the-top to me.
>
> Of course, a work-around that doesn't tickle that particular Konqueror
> bug would be preferable.
>
> -Matt (User:Morven)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

references:
<41FBDCF8.1040809@email.com> <shzmysj8j0.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>
	<41FC533C.10809@mindtouch.com>

body:
Urs C Muff <ursm at mindtouch.com> writes:

> Well some people will just not be able to get comfortable with markup,
> even thought the markup is designed to be human friendly it is still
> markup.

The problem is that we are using the wrong markup language.  Those who
are not familiar with our markup and--more important--with our
structuring rules, can write plain text.

Sooner or later we will have to apply semantic tags anyway.  The German
team already invented a tagging schema for biographical data.  Let's
switch to XML now :)

--
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                           |      ,__o
                                                        |    _-\_<,
                                                        |   (*)/'(*)
Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4  AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C


body:
--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
wrote:

> Robert Brookes said:
> >
> > So what to do about a belligerent who spurns
> > mediation?
>
> I've been pondering this question since I read this:
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Robert_the_Bruce#Mediation
>

What I am pondering is why it was such a crime for me
to refuse that mediation when with the case at hand
everyone seems pretty blas? about EB's refusal. What
exactly is the difference Tony?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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from_name: Urs C Muff

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: WYSIWYG editor

references:
<41FBDCF8.1040809@email.com>
	<shzmysj8j0.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>	<41FC533C.10809@mindtouch.com>
	<shvf9fjusz.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de>

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>Urs C Muff <ursm at mindtouch.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>Well some people will just not be able to get comfortable with markup,
>>even thought the markup is designed to be human friendly it is still
>>markup.
>>
>>
>
>The problem is that we are using the wrong markup language.  Those who
>are not familiar with our markup and--more important--with our
>structuring rules, can write plain text.
>
>Sooner or later we will have to apply semantic tags anyway.  The German
>team already invented a tagging schema for biographical data.  Let's
>switch to XML now :)
>
>
Let's not go down that route with the tagging discussion that is another
topic in my opinion.  I'm personally quite happy with the wiki markup,
but I also see a need for advanced markup for special cases.  Novice
computer users will not write in any markup in my opinion, that's why
there is a need for a WYSIWYG editor for those people.

- Urs


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Your email requires verification
	verify#Tv3pRfj5OlgUYd4rzrsxER8NxjpJhLBr

body:
I agree.

Mark

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:37:53 +1100, David Gerard
<fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> br1annet at laurie.aiows.net (br1annet at laurie.aiows.net) [050131 03:34]:
>
> > The message you sent requires that you verify that you
> > are a real live human being and not a spam source.
> > To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave
> > the subject line intact.
> > The headers of the message sent from your address are show below:
>     [...]
> > Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com: domain of wikipedia-l-bounces at wikimedia.org designates 207.142.131.234 as permitted sender)
>
> Anyone who sends whitelisting messages to *each poster to* a mailing list
> they subscribe to shows the deep obnoxiousness of whitelisting and needs to
> be removed from said mailing list promptly.
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Anders Wegge Jakobsen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Add xml:lang to interlanguage pages

body:
I have made a small change to the MonoBook skin. The change will add
meta information to the <head> element for pages containing
interlanguage links. Not knowing what to do with it, I made a bug with
severity enhancement in MediaZilla:
<http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1433>

 Two questions:

 Should I add a variable to regulate the behaviour, like
$wgEnableXmlLang?

 Can changes such as this be accepted into the main tree without
similar changes to the other skins?

--
/Wegge <http://wiki.wegge.dk>
echo mail: !#^."<>"|tr "<> mail:" dk at wegge
mailto:awegge at gmail.com - Invitationer p? FCFS basis


subject: [Wikipedia-l] www.wikipedia.org portal

body:
On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:04 AM, David Gerard wrote:
>
>
> *Current* Konqueror 3.x works fine, and anyone running it should be
> capable
> of upgrading. OTOH, graceful degradation in ungraceful browsers (and
> disgraceful ones) is essential.
>
>
> - d.
>

Or as we called it at a very large software company I used to work for
"ass backwards compatibility".


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] {Spam?} Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up

body:
Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Delphine-
>
>> The least you could have done, Erik, is go fish for those five
>> "supporters" and ask them if they were ready to take care of the
>> project and all it implies.
>>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition
>
> "According to the proposed policy for wikis in new languages
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy_for_wikis_in_new_languages>, at
> least 5 people have to express an interest in a language edition in
> order for it to be created,"
>
> This was the requirement. You had plenty of time to raise objections
> against this requirement. You did not. I waited after the creation of
> the Dutch Wikinews for objections before creating the other languages.
> There were none. Now, as for the French Wikinews, we'll see how it comes
> along. It should receive a fair chance as any other Wikimedia project.
> Don't give me any rants about the state of the project after 24 hours of
> existence.
>
> Whether or not the majority of the people on Wikinews/Vote/Fr voted for
> or against the project is irrelevant. The project vote, as it was agreed
> by everyone involved, was an aggregated vote. The French Wikimedia
> community is part of the larger Wikimedia Foundation, which is an
> international organization. That organization has made the decision to
> launch the Wikinews project. It was only a matter of time until the
> French edition of that project was set up.
>
> Now, if you want to formulate more strict requirements as part of the
> policy for new languages, please be my guest and get involved in the
> policy discussion on Meta. That is more productive than complaining
> about decisions that have been made in accordance with previous
> agreements and written policy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

About 3 years ago, I ranted a lot about the right of minorities to say
their opinion and have it respected and taken into account.

We are a diverse project, and we should preserve this diversity by being
respectful of local habits.

Taking decision by majority vote, and imposing local communities the
wish of the global community is acceptable only when it does harm the
project not to all walk in the same direction with the same pace.

For example, changing the order of the wikipedia menu is harmful because
all items being at the same place help people unfamiliar with a language
to navigate in each and another local place.

However, setting up a wikinews the way you did it, without prior
warning, without taking into account the strong opposition which existed
in the french community when the global decision was taken, without
taking into account our community is still small in comparison with the
english and german ones, and might be harmed by this new dispersion of
vital forces, is not correct.

You may answer notafish with giving her the "big rules", "big policies",
"big guidelines" and other "big things" which were voted on. This does
not hide the fact wikinews is not welcome among us. Just as wikiquotes,
it will be a project in survival. I will not either mention how many
french people work on wikisource or wikispecies. Wiktionary and
wikibooks are below 50 edits per day as well. People are doing great
things on them, but even after 2 years, these projects are still hardly
resources. They will be great things later, but right now, they still
host small communities.

One of the very poor aspects of globalization is forcing communities in
a direction they are not ready to assume. It is forcing communities to
assume a standard of life which they can not handle. It is pushing them
to grow to fast, to run after more modern and developped ones.

Do not take it wrong Erik. But in my perspective, setting up a french
wikinews right now seems to me to have one main benefit : the one of
showing wikinews is developing and growing and is successful in its
concept. Except that this will be a screen of smoke. And it will damage
the image of the french speaking project.

A project governed by rules and policies before being governed by what
people wish is not what I wish for us. We agreed on a new project, but
only languages supporting a project should have the choice to start one
and only when they feel ready to do so. For those opposing, a minimum of
understanding and acknowlegment would be nice. There is a huge
difference between starting a new language wikipedia and a new language
wikinews. Wikipedia goals and general policies are already defined.
Setting up a 5 people interested rule is fine.

For wikinews, nothing is set.

In my perspective, it is a huge disappointment. Huge because what wins
here is not what a community really wishes, it is a set of rules,
policies and such, drafted by a couple of people. It is not consensus,
it is the rule of the strongest. And local community wish crushed by
globalization.


from_name: Kiss All

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: The ideas wiki idea

body:
Yes. Many , many and many good ideas just went away because there were
no enough resources to carry them on, no matter in academic
,industrial or even personal areas.  And some of them are really
beneficial to human beings.

Thus, It is really good to have a centralized place to put those
immature, discontinued ideas and let any others to refine them and
realize them. All of the participants must agree to contribute their
ideas and efforts to the general public.

However, you got the point: we need a practical license for this type
of intellectual property. Mostly it contradicts the current patent
laws. Just like free software contradicts copyright. We need a
"Stallman" in this area too,.

My basic assumption here is: To a better future of human being, we
need share many more than just knowledge. Knowledge is just rice and
flour. There are many more important things we need to spread and pass
down: such as wisdom and good ideas.

Simply to know something does not help us too much, we need to find
good ideas about how to use these knowledge and produce something
brand new. I'd like to be a person knowing a little and produce
something rather than a person knowing a lot but produce nothing.

Best regards.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:00:45 +0000, Adam Moniz <envsci at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Share_your_ideas
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Share_your_ideas
>
> Hi,
>
> I was just about to make a new suggestion for a wikideas section then
> I found. This is exactly what I had in mind. I'd obviously be willing
> to put a little into it, I totally agree that one of the main peices
> of work is to modify the GPL to create an ideas licence rather than a
> software licence.
>
> I think wikideas is quite a catchy title and would suit this project.
>
> One of the main reasons I'd like such a project to exist is because I
> have many ideas I'd love to create wikis on in www.wikipedia.org but
> i'm not sure if they'd allow my wakcy theories to count as fact. I
> could even create a section on "Adam Moniz" :-P an autobiograhy that
> becomes a biography as more and more people who dislike me discover
> the page. :-)
>
> I believe wikideas is a very powerful proposition. This is because in
> order to contribute to the current academic system you have to be
> involved in research, but there appears to be many areas where
> individual thought on a mass scale could yield results, areas of
> philosophy and current affairs are good examples. It's difficult to
> explain why I think this would be the case. Good luck with this
> project and get in touch. :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Adam Moniz
>

--
Be good....


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: The ideas wiki idea


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: The ideas wiki idea


body:
Robert Brookes wrote:

>--- John Lee <johnleemk at gawab.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Robert Brookes wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>So what to do about a belligerent who spurns
>>>mediation?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Nothing. Just hope the Arbcom will recognise this
>>and take it into
>>account; if you're lucky, they may drop the case.
>>
>>John Lee
>>([[User:Johnleemk]])
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>What are you telling me John? That interactions with
>the Arbcom depend on luck?
>
>Robert
>
>
>
No, that you should stop spamming this mailing list and follow the
dispute resolution procedure appropriately. We do not directly control
the arbcom's decisions, so just point out the fact to them (which I
believe you have done) and stop whining.

John Lee
([[User:Johnleemk]])