from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: WFM : need fluent german :-)

body:
Thanks a lot Arne :-)

ant

Arne Klempert a ?crit:
> On Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:45 AM
> Arne Klempert <wikipedia at klempert.de> wrote:
>
>
>>>OKay, is there a german person willing to contact the owner of
>>>http://www.wikimedia.com/ ?
>>
>>I'll try to contact her.
>
>
> I sent her a mail (see below). If she doesn't respond until friday I
> will try to reach her by phone.
>
> -Arne (akl)
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 04, 2004 2:20 PM
> Arne Klempert [wikimedia] <akl at wikimedia.de> wrote:
>
>
>>Sehr geehrte Frau Rohrer,
>>
>>ich wende mich an Sie, weil Sie die Domain wikimedia.com reserviert
>>haben.
>>
>>Vielleicht kennen Sie die freie Internet-Enzyklop?die Wikipedia
>>(wikipedia.org). Dieses Projekt hat es sich zum Ziel gesetzt,
>>ausschlie?lich durch die Arbeit freiwilliger Autoren Enzyklop?dien in
>>allen Sprachen der Welt zu erstellen und ist seit dem Start im Jahre
>>2001 diesem Ziel schon sehr nahe gekommen: mittlerweile existieren
>>fast eine Million Artikel in ?ber 80 Sprachen, darunter ?ber 300.000
>>in englischer und ?ber 100.000 in deutscher Sprache.
>>
>>Getragen wird dieses Projekt von der Wikimedia Foundation (eine
>>gemeinn?tzige Stiftung mit Sitz in Florida, USA). Derzeit versuchen
>>wir, die Au?endarstellung von Wikimedia auszubauen, um besser um
>>Spenden f?r den Betrieb der Wikipedia und ihrer Schwesterprojekte
>>werben zu k?nnen. Denn das Angebot soll auch in Zukunft kostenfrei
>>nutzbar sein und ohne Werbung finanziert werden.
>>
>>In diesem Zusammenhang h?tten wir gro?es Interesse an der von Ihnen
>>registrierten Domain. Wikimedia verf?gt bereits ?ber die Domain
>>wikimedia.org. Leider ist die Endung .org aber f?r viele
>>Internetnutzer sehr ungewohnt, und es kommt erfahrungsgem?? h?ufig
>>vor, dass ungewohnte Endungen durch .com ersetzt werden.
>>
>>Zudem bauen wir derzeit eine internationale Organisationsstruktur auf
>>(in Deutschland wurde bereits ein Verein gegr?ndet:
>>http://wikimedia.de - andere L?nder folgen in K?rze), so dass auch aus
>>diesem Grund eine Erreichbarkeit von Wikimedia unter allen verf?gbaren
>>Endungen besonders wichtig ist.
>>
>>Wir w?rden uns deshalb sehr freuen, wenn Sie bereit w?ren, uns die
>>Domain wikimedia.com zu ?bertragen. Der Dank von unz?hligen
>>freiwilligen Mitarbeiter der verschiedenen von Wikimedia gef?rderten
>>Projekte w?re Ihnen sicher. Sofern Sie dies w?nschen, setze ich mich
>>auch gerne daf?r ein, dass Ihnen durch die Registrierung entstandene
>>Kosten ersetzt werden.
>>
>>F?r R?ckfragen stehe ich jederzeit gerne zur Verf?gung.
>>
>>
>>Viele Gr??e
>>Arne Klempert
>>
>>* Freiwilliger Mitarbeiter bei Wikipedia
>>* Zweiter Vorsitzender des Vereins Wikimedia Deutschland -
>>  Gesellschaft zur F?rderung Freien Wissen
>
> s


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Foundation Website

body:
Angela_ a ?crit:
> I would rather this directed to the right page based on the language
> settings in your browser rather than forcing you to choose a language.
>
> Angela.

Why do I have the feeling this is just a repeat of a two year old
discussion with The cunctator ?

Hmmm, why would I be necessary redirected to french language even if I
do not want to ?

ant


body:
Delirium a ?crit:
> Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
>> Thus a language-selection portal would be appropriate and expected for the
>> foundation website. Not having it right away is simply due to the lack
>> of a
>> technically and aesthetically good implementation. A side benefit of
>> creating
>> such a portal would be adapting it for use at www.wikipedia.org and
>> other www
>> wikimedia project domains.
>>
> Unless we can get everyone translated accurately pretty quickly, we
> might want to still give English primacy as the language in which
> Foundation business is conducted.  This wouldn't be related to where the
> Foundation is incorporated, just due to the fact that if we were to list
> all languages that members understand at least somewhat, English would
> almost certainly come out ahead by far, and it's the language most
> commonly used for cross-borders business these days outside of Wikipedia
> as well.  (If at some point it turns out that everyone learns Esperanto,
> I'd be happy to move to that; or if people learn Latin again, we could
> move back to using Latin as the international language of
> correspondence, but for now it seems English has more speakers than any
> of the alternatives).
>
> Of course, instant high-quality translations would be even better, but
> especially for sensitive things we have to be careful that the
> translations actually all capture the same nuances of meaning.
>
> -Mark

Nod. I agree with this. I prefer english, at least for now.

But I think that if some people have strong opinion one way or another,
I will be glad to settle on the leading opinion, portal or english per
default.


body:
Timwi a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> But for an american foundation, it makes sense to give priority to
>> english language.
>
>
> I'm disappointed! :)

Well... I think Mark gave a perhaps better explanation of why I think
that english should be priority language on that wiki site.

But, if you wish, I can say that if anyone would feel like making meta
main page a language portal, I *strongly* agree with it :)


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Bughunt day 2

body:
Soupir d'admiration

Please, no one disturbs bughunter...

ant (a bug...)

Brion Vibber a ?crit:
> We currently stand at 199 open bugs out of 1099. That's down 15 open
> bugs from yesterday, right on track.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Big new server order under way

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit:
> I have ordered some new servers.  I believe that they will resolve
> several significant issues.
>
> 1. NFS Fileserver -- for now, only 1 of these, as I was told that
> gwicke wants to do some tests before we buy 2 of them.
>
> Dual Opteron 242
> 1 Gb ram (2x512), leaving 6 slots available
> 3Ware 9500S-8 8 port RAID controller
> 6x250GB drives (750GB HW RAID 10)
> floppy
> Sony 52x CDROM IDE
> 460W hotswap redundant power supplies
> Fedora Core 2 for AMD64
>
> 2.  Search DB server --
> same machine as above, except...
>
> 6x200GB drives (600GB HW RAID 10)
> 4 GB ram (4x1gb), leaving 4 slots available
>
> 3.  Apaches --
>
> In what may be a slightly controversial decision, but supported by
> Shaihulud and Jeronim in the irc room, and probably a tossup to most
> people, I went with a "known quantity" and ordered 8 1U Pentium 4
> machines.
>
> P4 3.0GHZ - 1 MB Cache - HT - 800FSB
> 512MB (2x256) - leaving 2 slots available
> 80GB ATA100 hard drive
>
> My thinking here is that this will roughly *double* our apache
> capacity, thus definitively solving (for now) what has been a
> longstanding issue.  This may expose something else as a bottleneck,
> we don't know yet.
>
> There was a lot of talk about going with dual opterons in this
> capacity, and it was once decided.  But lately there has been some
> concern about the performance of suda, and some difficulties
> (possibly) with having a non-homegenous group of apaches.
>
> I have seen arguments back and forth, and did not find any of them
> definitive.  So, I made a decision.  That's what I have to do, and I
> hope no one is mad about it.  :-)
>
> --Jimbo

I think they will be too happy to even think of being mad ;-)


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Category links broken in cvs head

body:
Seems to be due to this postParseLinkColour thing:

Categories:

I'll leave the fix to those familiar with this new code.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Bughunt day 3

body:
We currently stand at 188 open bugs out of 1102 total. That's down 11
open bugs from yesterday; we're slightly behind schedule. Would be
easier if there weren't new bugs to deal with too. ;)

Tomorrow's goal is 184-15 = 169 open bugs.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wikien-l

from_name: Caroline Ford

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] [bhorrocks@npg.org.uk: National
	Portrait Gallery images on Wikipedia website]

body:
http://www.mda.org.uk/mcopyg/bridge.htm

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from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [WikiEN-l] British copyright law != American copyright law

body:
On Wednesday 04 August 2004 18:28, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> p.s.  I would be interested in gathering examples of content that (a)
> we ought to have in the encyclopedia on editorial grounds but that (b)
> would not be legal for us to host in the United States.

In some countries, works enter public domain 50 years after author's death.
So, there are wagons of pictures and texts of authors who died between 1934
and 1954 which are PD in those countries but not PD in the US.


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: phase3/includes Parser.php,1.220,1.221

body:
I left a comment (and the "original" line) in the source because I was
to mention it on the mailing list (which I did), in the hopes that it
would be easier for people who come and check to see *what* I've done in
a glimpse, and can revert it easily if the change was complete nonsense.

Magnus

Timwi wrote:

> Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>>               # Run full parser on the included text
>> !             $text = $this->internalParse( $text, $newline,
>> $assocArgs );
>> !             # I replaced the line below with the line above, as it
>> former seems to cause several bugs
>> !             #$text = $this->stripParse( $text, $newline, $assocArgs );
>>
>
>
> What is the general opinion on the usefulness of such comments? In my
> mind, it would seem that having CVS archive the old versions is
> sufficient to document any change. Personally, I object to leaving
> commented-out code in the files. (But then again, maybe I'm just
> copying this tradition from LiveJournal.)
>
> Of course, it would also be helpful if the commit message explained
> why this change actually fixes the bug. I understand that you may not
> know; you may have just experimented and found that this change
> happens to fix one or more bugs. But I'm pretty sure that any
> information you can supply about the effects of this change on the bug
> in question will be helpful to other developers (especially people
> like myself who don't know the code very well yet).
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Interesting link on British copyright law...

body:
Robert Graham Merkel wrote:

>I'm sorry for the profusion of mails on this issue, but I think it's
>kind of important.
>
No need to apologize.  I would very much prefer reading this than a long
series of posts about whether some individual should be banned.

Ec


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Using a tripod (Re: Obnoxious art galleries...)

body:
On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 02:36:40PM -0700, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> The no tripod rule is often based on the experience that some kinds of
> tripods can damage floors.

Have a elder one with crooks with you,
perfect one-pod tripod ;-)

ciao, tom
--
== Weblinks ==
* http://shop.wikipedia.org - WikiReader Internet zu kaufen
* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
* http://www.hammererlehen.de - Urlaub in Berchtesgaden


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: bombmaking information

body:
There is the case of Sherman Austin, who was convicted in the U.S. for
posting bombmaking information on the web.  The law in question is not
some post-9/11 Republican thing, it's a 1997 law championed by Dianne
Feinstein (D-Calif) and signed into law by then-President Bill
Clinton.

Mr. Austin pled guilty rather than fighting it, which may or may not
have been a sensible thing to do under the circumstances.  (I tend to
think that it was not a sensible thing to do, but I'm not in a
position to judge.)

It is unclear to me whether such a law would be upheld as being
constitutional, because the law requires an element of criminal
intent, that is, it is illegal to post information about bombmaking to
the Internet _with the intent that readers commit a Federal crime of
violence_.  In a recent case, the Supreme Court upheld a law against
burning a cross _with the intent to intimidate_.

In any event, such a law would clearly not apply to Wikipedia, because
our intent would never be that people commit crimes of violence.  At
the same time, of course, I would find it extremely unpleasant to be
faced with a bogus prosecution for such a thing.  I have a little girl
at home, and I don't intend _at this point in my life_ to sit in
Federal prison to make a point about freedom of speech.  (I very much
respect people who would, though, if their life circumstances are
appropriate.)

--Jimbo


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jayjg is now committing fraud and falsifying quotes.

body:
We need some help from the arbitration committee.

Jayjg is now committing outright vandalism by inserting
fake quotes into the article on [[Relationship between
segments of Judaism]].  This is not a matter of how to
phrase someone's point of view in accord with NPOV policy;
the problem is that he is totally fabricating beliefs and
quotes, and attempting to pass them off as real. He is
totally out of control.

As an ultra-Orthodox Jew, Jayjg has been taught to distrust
all other Jews, Orthodox and non-Orthodox. Although I feel
sorry for him, I can at least try to understand why he
feels that everyone is an enemy to him. But that does not
justify faking facts and quotes.

For instance, Jayjg wrote "In the late 1980s non-Orthodox
movements began attempting to hold non-traditional services
as the Western Wall, in order to assert what they viewed as
their denominational rights. "

The problem is that this is a lie. The indisputable
historical facts, reproted in many Israeli newspapers, are
that in the late 1980s ORTHODOX JEWISH women began holding
prayer services in the women's section of the Kotel, the
plaza adjoining the Western Wall of the Temple in
Jerusalem. They had support from a number of prominent
ORTHODOX rabbis. In response, they were slandered as people
out to destroy the Jewish people, they received death
threats from some ultra-Orthodox Jews, and they were beaten
up - in public.

A little later Masorti Jews (Israel's Conservative Judaism)
began holding prayer services near the Western Wall,
however these services were NOT held next to it, but rather
far behind it, in an adjoining public plaza.

Jayjg keeps removing all this information. His claims that
they are all non-Orthodox is a lie, that they were all at
the Kotel is a lie, and that their real purpose was not to
pray, but rather were making a public demonstration for
political purposes.

Also, Jayjg, is shockingly making up fake quotes about
Conservative Judaism's founding documents. Jayjg repeatedly
inserts fake quotes about how Conservative Judaism's
founding documents stated that they fight against "Insane
Orthodoxy and Stupid reform". The problem is that this is a
bald-faced lie; none of the Conservative movement's
documents say anything of this sort. This is a deliberate
fraud, i.e. vandalism. I happen to own a vast library of
the Conservative movement's publications, from 1900 to
today, and nothing Jayjg writes is in there.

The same goes for Jayjg's libel about the leadership of
Reform Judaism; the hatespeech that Jayjg attributes to
them was simply never spoken, ever. It has been proven that
instead of quotin from the leadership of reform Judaism,
Jayjg is simply restating the views of one Rabbi Avi
Shafran, an ultra-Orthodox opponent of Reform Judaism.
Rabbi Shafran not only faked quotes from the Reform rabbi
in question, but Rabbi Shafram is on public record as
saying that all Reform and Conservative rabbis deserve to
be killed. He is, to put it lightly, a lunatic.

When we have an article on George W. Bush., we do not look
for his most insane opponent who publicly states that he
wants to kill Bush (like Osama bin Ladin) and then use
Osama's quotes and essay as an accurate description of
George W. Bush's point of view! That would be insane...but
that is precisely what Jayjg keeps doing.

(Quotes with references available, by the way. I do not
make any statements like this without detailed references.)

We need to control Jayjg, stop the fraud, and get back to
work. Unfortunately, something seems to be very wrong in
the mediation committee. I have been trying to get medation
with a number of other people on other articles for three
weeks now, and none of the Wikipedia mediation volunteers
has done anything at all. Why they refuse to do what they
promised to do is beyond me.

Robert (RK)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Block #1

body:
Anthony DiPierro wrote:

>> If you agreed to it voluntarily then why are you questioning it with
>> "Fennec could have done something other than block me (such as speak
>> to me first)"?
>> Christiaan
>
> What am I questioning?  I'm not saying Fennec wasn't able to do what
> he did. I'm saying he shouldn't have. It was completely unnecessary
> and counterproductive.

That's one point of view I guess. Another point of view, held by many
it seems, including yourself at one point, is that in such cases you
are not subject to the normal warnings and protections afforded other
users. That you are retrospectively arguing a point that you've already
agreed to, by suggesting you *should, in some cases, get some type of
warning only goes to confirm why you've been striped of such
protections in the first place.

> Just because an admin has the ability to block first and ask questions
> never doesn't mean they always should.

Let me quote again, in this case "you are not subject to the normal
warnings and protections afforded other users." Could it be any
clearer? Whether they _should_ or not doesn't seem up for debate.
Christiaan


subject: [Wikitech-l] de.wikipedia in utf-8

body:
Camille Constans wrote:

>As de.wikipedia is now in utf-8, can we have some reports how it's working now ? and pbs de.wiki had ?
>
>Thanks
>
>Shaihulud
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>

The nl:wiktionary went to UTF-8 a few days earlier. The only thing I found were some existing Romanian words that did not finish with a ";" as a consequence they were not translated. This was to be expected obviously.

An other effect was the promissed explosion of new words; we are now at 1900 words, we were at some 1200. This was to thank Shaihulud and Anthere for making the change to UTF-8 happen.

Thanks,
  Gerard


body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> That, and to what extent do we want to monitor a wide range of laws in
> many countries.  It's just not practical.  Consideration of the host
> country's laws and major international treaties makes sense, but if a
> downstream user is going to republish material he must accept some
> responsibility for his actions.

Generally, I agree, we can't monitor and judge every single law in
every single jurisdiction.  But we can pick and choose, and do our
best.

> But Britain and the other developed countries are not where the
> distribution would be most useful.

I'm not so sure about that.  Distribution in developed countries is
important, because as we maximize our audience in those countries, we
gain access to the hearts and minds of people who can fund our
distribution in developing countries.

Imagine a free Wikipedia dvd mailed to millions of households in the
UK, along with a letter from me explaining who we are and what we are
doing, and asking for money to distribute our work in Africa.  If we
found a way to do that cheaply enough (for example, by working with
popular magazines), the results would likely be amazing.

> With the British laws under discussion, more than one interpretation
> is possible.  How do we determine which of two conflicting
> interpretations is the right one?

Well, the fact that interpretation may be difficult surely doesn't
mean that we can just throw up our hands and ignore the issue.  We
have to do _something_, so we should consult with people who are
likely to know, and just do our best.

--Jimbo


body:
Caroline Ford wrote:

>http://www.mda.org.uk/mcopyg/bridge.htm
>
>
>
That appears to be self-serving opinion. Nothing there adds much to the
legal arguments.  I agree that Bridgeman v. Corel is not binding in the
UK, but it appears that the judge did at least take UK law into account.

They put some stock on the need to have the interests of museums
represented or to look for alternative protective means suggests that
museums are very worried about the way the debate is going.

They acknowledge that there are no serious commercial ventures
attempting to "undermine the position of museums".  I have not looked at
the provisions in UK copyright law that govern what can be recovered in
the case of a legally acknowledged infringement.  I do understand,
however, that in the US, unless the copyright is properly registered,
the damages are limited to a forfeiture of profits.  They may be
comforted in this by knowing that our level of profit is very easily
calculated.

The applicability of the UK law relating to two and three dimensional
works is not relevant, or may even help our case.  Camera angles may
provide some originality in the case of a photograph of a sculpture;
this seems to dispel that.  In any event, if things become serious we
should be willing to suspend any arguments that relate to pictures of
sculptures until the principle issue is settled.

I found their last sentence to be particularly intriguing. "Museums are
also concerned that unauthorised copying will undermine the quality and
integrity of image reproduction."  It has no legal importance.  At the
same time it suggests that a serious debate about the role of museums in
society, and the associated funding responsibilities, needs to be
undertaken.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] fair locking (was unfair blocking)

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>>> *They live for that, remember.
>>
>> Yes, *they "hate our freedom."
>
> Well, they do.
>
> --Jimbo

Come on, spare us guys.

Christiaan


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Danny has been nominated as our next Mediation
	Committee co-chair -- please weigh in!

body:
S.Vertigo wrote:

>The other platforms are slow enough; though MLs are
>basic and ubiquitous, and IRC is more UTTM. Any added
>platform (should there be a choice) has to compete
>with the utility of these others.
>
Excuse me for raining on the jargon, but what it "UTTM"?

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: FW: Wikipedia for Old English

body:
James R. Johnson wrote:
> May I ask why Klingon, and Esperanto have Wikis?

Esperanto is an active community.  Don't even ask about Klingon,
that's a long and sad story.

I fully support your request to have Old English, it has an ISO 639
3-letter code (ang), after all.

I don't think "Why do you think it would be a good idea?" is much of
an objection to your plan.  Unless there's some reason to think that
it's a bad idea (Klingon, for example, was and is controversial), then
if people want to do it, they should do it.  "I would enjoy working on
it" is a perfectly valid reason.

--Jimbo


body:
S.Vertigo wrote:
> > > >*They live for that, remember.
> > > Yes, *they "hate our freedom."
> > Well, they do.
>
> If by "freedom," you mean "the illusion of greater
> freedom shared among those of relatively greater
> means, regardless of the means (free or not) by which
> they are gotten," then I *totally agree.

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I misunderstood what you were originally talking
about, because I certainly don't understand what you're talking about
now.  I thought you were talking about trolls, but it seems you were
talking about... well, I have no idea. So I withdraw my comment.

--Jimbo


from_name: Robert Graham Merkel

subject: [WikiEN-l] Interesting link on British copyright law...

body:
I'm sorry for the profusion of mails on this issue, but I think it's
kind of important.

Google reveals that the Museum Copyright Group in the UK had a presentation
on museum copyright issues in 2003 by the "Peter Wienand, Partner and Head of
Intellectual Property, Farrer &CO"

They were so kind to place their material online here:

http://www.mda.org.uk/mcopyg/event02.htm

He has some very interesting things to say about the issues we are
interested.  Let me quote some relevant sections:

2. What is the nature of a copyrighted work?
   * Works need to show originality, and/or skill and judgement
   * Many copyrights may exist in any work or in an archival file.

9. How can rights be enforced in the taking of photographs of archival
 material?

    * This is difficult to do under copyright law
    * However, rights can be enforced under contract law

11. Are there any rights issue relating to facsimiles?

    * This relates directly to whether there is any copyright protection
     afforded to photographs of art works. Although this has never been
     properly tested in the UK, there is probably enough skill and
     judgement in the photos of art works to afford them copyright
     protection in their own right

So, there we are...nobody knows what the law is in this situation is.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Robert Merkel
                                     robert.merkel at benambra.org
                                        http://benambra.org

It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been
searching for evidence which could support this.
                -- Bertrand Russell
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


body:
Nikola Smolenski wrote:

>On Wednesday 04 August 2004 18:28, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>
>>p.s.  I would be interested in gathering examples of content that (a)
>>we ought to have in the encyclopedia on editorial grounds but that (b)
>>would not be legal for us to host in the United States.
>>
>>
>
>In some countries, works enter public domain 50 years after author's death.
>So, there are wagons of pictures and texts of authors who died between 1934
>and 1954 which are PD in those countries but not PD in the US.
>
All 1954 deaths are still have their works under copyright until the end
of this year.  What you cite is the standard under international law.
It is interesting to note that the countries that have or are pushing
for longer copyright terms are rich ones with many businesses that are
already heavily invested in their intellectual properties.  The artists
that did the work more than 50 years ago have long since been paid off.

Lately the third world countries have been more interested in
agricultural subsidies since that has a greater impact on them than
intellectual property.

Ec


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: phase3/includes Parser.php, 1.135.2.12,
	1.135.2.13

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> Fix for [ 988793 ] Pages in category saved as links when category page
>> edited
>>
>> Disable link cache while running the categoryMagic list to make sure that
>> pages under the category are not inadvertently recorded in the link
>> tables
>> when the category page is edited.
>
> I thought we *want* those pages to be recorded in the link tables.

No, that's what categorylinks is for.

> Isn't that what makes "What links here" and especially "Related Changes"
> work for categories?

They don't work reliably, and are not intended to work.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] UTTM ?= (was:Danny... in!)

body:
Sorry. "Up to the minute."

S

--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> S.Vertigo wrote:
>
> >The other platforms are slow enough; though MLs are
> >basic and ubiquitous, and IRC is more UTTM. Any
> added
> >platform (should there be a choice) has to compete
> >with the utility of these others.
> >
> Excuse me for raining on the jargon, but what it
> "UTTM"?
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Poor, Edmund W

body:
Robert,

Thank you for your two lengthy explanations about Judaism articles. I
appreciate the time you've taken to bring these matters to the attention
of us all on this mailing list.

Some of us have begun looking into this, but I predict it will take
several days just to understand it all:
* We haven't all been following the articles and talk pages as closely
as you
* Some of us aren't up to speed on Israeli history and other fine points
of Judaica

However, your analysis is very helpful, and I have a few suggestions
based purely on that:

1. Try to identify Points Of View (which I like to abbreviate as POV)

On the Wailing Wall Women (no humor implied or intended!), it looks like
someone's POV that what they did was "non-traditional", i.e.,
unorthodox. They apparently have concluded that the worshipers were
therefore not "Orthodox".

2. Characterize undesirable edits as "biased" or "mistaken"

It sounds so much nicer than to use the L-word (rhymes with fire)

3. Use the "diff" function

Compare the preferred version of the article, with the diff function to
illustrate an example of valid information being removed. You can then
place a link to this diff on someone's user talk page (like mine :-) and
ask them to take a look.

4. No one should remove a POV that they disagree with.

Controversies thrive on differing points of view. It's a great service
to our readers to let them know what other people think. If Rabbi Avi
Shafran is a source of certain reports, then by all means say so in the
articles. I hope there is also an [[Avi Shafran]], so readers can decide
for themselves how much credibility to ascribe to him.

Ed Poor
Professional Peacemaker


from_name: Peter Gervai

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] [bhorrocks@npg.org.uk: National Portrait Gallery
	images on Wikipedia website]

body:
On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 05:50:40PM +0200, Wouter Vanden hove wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
> >Obviously the nearly 400-year-old
> >originals are going to be out of copyright, but the scans are from
> >reproductions, which may have a valid copyright even if it's
> >non-creative, depending on applicable law.
[...]
> The Bridgeman Art Library, Ltd., Plaintiff, - versus - Corel Corporation,
[...]
> WHAT DID THE COURT DECIDE?
> The Court ruled that reproductions of images in the public domain are
> not protected by copyright if the reproductions are slavish or lacking
> in originality.
>
> In their opinion, the Court noted:  ''There is little doubt that many
> photographs, probably the overwhelming majority, reflect at least the
> modest amount of originality required for copyright protection....  But
> 'slavish copying', although doubtless requiring technical skill and
> effort, does not qualify.''
>
> In other words, an exact reproduction of an image in the public domain
> does not possess creativity itself.  Therefore, the reproduction is not
> protected under copyright law. "

Just to second that last month I asked our "copyright authority" about this
and the lawyer there told me basically the same: in Hungary (and I reckon in
the EU as well) if it is not creating a new creative work then it does not
change original copyright status. This means that digitalising content
(creating a CD of a PD encyclopedia, scanning its pictures, reprinting
originals, etc.) does not change copyright: if it was PD before it gonna be
PD as well.

Naturally every nation have the right - I guess - to make as stupid
contradictory laws as they please (and I trust englishmen on that :)) but it
is hardly valid outside their jurisdiction. But I even doubt this would be
the case.

But IANAL, and not a Briton either. ;)

[[user:grin]]
Hungary


from_name: Henning Heitkötter

subject: [Wikitech-l] de.wikipedia in utf-8

body:
Camille Constans schrieb:

>As de.wikipedia is now in utf-8, can we have some reports how it's working now ? and pbs de.wiki had ?
>
>
The way I see it, most problems appearing after the conversion can be traced back to server-side caching: cached versions of articles were still in ISO, but the head-part of the source already said:
	<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"/>

This resulted in some trouble, as questionmarks or other placeholders bewildered readers. A "action=purge" on every affected page solved these display errors, but this took some time (~half a day). Something like a "global purge" would have been useful.

Another problem: users with an umlaut in their username had to clear their cookies and then login again.

And the third main problem: Links using for example "%FC" instead of "?" did not work any longer and had to be corrected manually/per bot.

Nevertheless, the conversion was a success - many thanks to all who helped :)

Regards,
Henning.H
--[[de:Benutzer:HenHei]]


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
In fact it would be required (the Germans say "Deutsch" on their WP, not
"German").

I'm eagerly anticipating the article on web browsers ("the knowledge
sea-soarers").

Stan

James R. Johnson wrote:

>Anglo-Saxon.  You got it.  On an ang/wikipedia.org, would it be alright to
>use the lanugage's own name for itself? (Englisc)
>
>James
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
>[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Timwi
>Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 1:41 PM
>To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: FW: Wikipedia for Old English
>
>James R. Johnson wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sorry - there have been about 6 million speakers at the height of
>>usage of Old English.  I guess it's like Latin in being a dead
>>language, but just as deserving of a Wiki.
>>
>>
>
>I am strongly in favour of a Wikipedia in the language that has the ISO code
>'ang' -- but *PLEASE DO NOT* call it "Old English". Call it "Anglo-Saxon".
>Please. Seriously. That's very important.
>
>If you call it "Old English", people will constantly attempt to write
>articles in Shakespearean, which is early Modern English.
>
>Timwi
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>


body:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> I thought you were talking about trolls, but
> it seems you were
> talking about... well, I have no idea. So I withdraw
> my comment.

I thought you were talking about trolls too.

S

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subject:
[Wikitech-l] Month abbreviations in LanguageCs.php - reaction
	to	Ray Saintonge

body:
V?t Zv?novec wrote:

>	Dear colleague,
>	you have written:
>
>
>>However copious the examples, and whatever the current practice, it is
>>not accurate to say that these abbreviations do not exist.  I do have
>>the book "Anglo-American Cataloging Rules" (for libraries) which lists
>>these for several languages, including Czech.
>>
>>
>	Could you be more precise? What does this book exactly say about
>Czech language?
>	It is true that you can find this:
>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Kv%C4%9B&btnG=Search.
>

>But if you look at this carefully, these
>examples are *computer* lists. Czech orthographic standard says this:
>"Nap?. Smetana se narodil r. 1824 v Litomy?li. - V Praze 17.
>listopadu 1989; viz Jungmann?v Slovn?k V, 113 = Jungmann?v Slovn?k,
>d?l V, strana 113; ? 9 odst. 2 p?sm. a) z?kona ?. 87/1991 Sb.; Praha
>4-Nusle, Za Zelenou li?kou 17; po?ta Praha 36 apod. Jestli?e se v
>datu ozna?uje den a m?s?c jen ??slicemi, p??e se za nimi te?ka: 8. 5.
>1945 nebo 8. V. 1945; je-li v?ak den a m?s?c ps?n pomoc? lom?tka,
>te?ky za ??slicemi se nep??ou: 8/5 1945 nebo 8/V 1945."
>http://www.pravidla.cz/vice.php?cose=6
>	In my view Wikipedia should respect native speakers. Is petition of
>Czech Wikipedians to change in LanguageCs.php
>
>
>
The book is used by libraries, mostly in English speaking countries, to
instruct how books should be described in library catalogues.  The big
problem in English is with the American numerical Month/Day/Year
representation of dates.  This technique is contrary to what everybody
else does.  Librarians, to avoid ambiguities, do not use numerical
representations for months.  Thus, for situations where the months do
not need to be spelled in full, they provide a series of abbriviations.
For Czech they give

Jan. =  "led."
Feb. = "?n."
Mar. = "b?ez."
Apr. = "dub."
May = "kv?t."
Jun. = "?erv."
Jul. = "?erven."
Aug. = "srp,"
Sep. = "z???"
Oct. = "??j."
Nov. = "list."
Dec. = "pros."
<http://games.tiscali.cz/flashpoint/news.asp?r=2003&m=1>
All begin with lower case letters as shown.  The book goes on to give
similar abbreviations in 27 other languages, all but one of which are
used in Europe.  My complaint before was with the simple statement that
such abbreviations "do not exist".  I have no intent to involve myself
with how the Czech Wikipedians resolve the issue.  My personal
preference remains to have the ISO standard format for dates
(YYYY-MM-DD) but I have no illusion about this idea finding acceptance
from most English speakers.  Arguments can be made for both abbreviated
and numeric representations for months, and in the former Czechoslovakia
numbers would have avoided any requirements to choose between different
Czech and Slovak forms.  For you the abbreviations might be most useful
in dealing with confused expatriates who are now living in the United
States. :-)

I hope that this better clarifies my position.

Ec


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocking policy

body:
Ahem.

RickK

Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
Actually the Arbitration committee at Wikipedia has at time accepted cases
but failed to come to a decision. No one has objected to that outcome.
(Actually courts have ways of shedding cases too).

Fred

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body:
James R. Johnson wrote:

>What was the deal with Klingon?  How'd that get a Wiki?
>
The less said about that the better.  Any debate only encourages them.
If you're really keen on the subject you should be able to find
something in the mailing list archives. :-)

Ec


body:
Timwi wrote:

> James R. Johnson wrote:
>
>> Sorry - there have been about 6 million speakers at the height of
>> usage of Old English.  I guess it's like Latin in being a dead
>> language, but just as deserving of a Wiki.
>
> I am strongly in favour of a Wikipedia in the language that has the
> ISO code 'ang' -- but *PLEASE DO NOT* call it "Old English". Call it
> "Anglo-Saxon". Please. Seriously. That's very important.
>
> If you call it "Old English", people will constantly attempt to write
> articles in Shakespearean, which is early Modern English.

Even Chaucer is only Middle English.

Ec


from_name: James R. Johnson

body:
May I ask why Klingon, and Esperanto have Wikis?

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Karl Eichwalder
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 10:49 AM
To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: FW: Wikipedia for Old English

"James R. Johnson" <modean52 at comcast.net> writes:

> I guess it's like Latin in being a dead language, but just as
> deserving of a Wiki.

Encyclopedia writer should try to get the facts right before posting.
Latin is still in use (and it was never dead).  And, more important, Latin
something like a sleeping lingua franca.

Why do you think it would be a good idea writing texts using Old English?

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)
_______________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: bombmaking information

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>Mr. Austin pled guilty rather than fighting it, which may or may not
>have been a sensible thing to do under the circumstances.  (I tend to
>think that it was not a sensible thing to do, but I'm not in a
>position to judge.)
>
I agree.  Guilt or innocence often depends more on the ability to
sustain a long and difficult ordeal in the courts.  When serious
constitutional issues are involved the matter will need to go well
beyond the local courts.

>In any event, such a law would clearly not apply to Wikipedia, because
>our intent would never be that people commit crimes of violence.  At
>the same time, of course, I would find it extremely unpleasant to be
>faced with a bogus prosecution for such a thing.  I have a little girl
>at home, and I don't intend _at this point in my life_ to sit in
>Federal prison to make a point about freedom of speech.  (I very much
>respect people who would, though, if their life circumstances are
>appropriate.)
>
It all comes down to our choice of issues.  Instructions for making
bombs are never more than marginal to the wider purpose of Wikipedia.
The copyright issues are a lot more relevant, and criminal law is not
much of an issue.  Prison time for infringement of copyrights is
extremely unlikely unless you get into the area of ignoring court orders.

Ec


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EasyTimeline still not working

body:
Stephan Walter wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Erik complained here about 2 weeks ago that his EasyTimeline function
> wasn't working. It still hasn't been fixed! The cached timelines are
> shown, but de.wikipedia has been converted to utf-8, so every timeline
> will have to be re-rendered there, which is not happening.

I had a go at fixing it, but it was taking a while and I had other
things to do. So I gave Erik Zachte shell access, so that he could fix
it himself. I knew that this would mean a delay before it was fixed
since Erik would take a while to get his bearings, but in the long term
I think it's for the best.

-- Tim Starling


body:
Like any US business, Wikipedia must either conform to
an existing particular protectionist system (hence
entering into an implicit agreement to somewhat
conform to a particular cultural imperialism) or
choose to defy it, in the hope that the means of
enforcing its protections elsewhere are impractical.
WP can continue to skirt indefinitely around the issue
of violating various "laws," as long as it complies
with 'US law.' But at some point, US law may come to
excessively test WP's conformity to its implied
contract to conform, and may have to find somewhere
else to go.

Considering some of the methods by which the RIAA for
example (a much-coddled entity) has excercised its
"authority" to enforce IP rights in the cyberworld,
its perhaps only on the continued disbelief in the
wiki model that WP is not being legally challenged.
IMHO its worth the effort to just imagine a future
wherein WP can exist and function outside of all
"legal" restrictions; and yet, as an entity in good
faith with human goals, still prosper. The authority
of courts to enforce their juristiction ultimately
comes down to means of enforcement, and hence the
extension of Constitutional principle (free speech,
habeas corpus, etc.) to international matters is on
the cutting edge of current legal issues; which is why
in Iraq for example, dominant enforcement system
without the extension of Constitutional juristiction
and citizen protections, is an ethical anomaly which
calls to explanation the very basis of US legal
authority in an international context.

S

--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Nikola Smolenski wrote:
> >On Wednesday 04 August 2004 18:28, Jimmy (Jimbo)
> Wales wrote:
> >>p.s.  I would be interested in gathering examples
> of content that (a)
> >>we ought to have in the encyclopedia on editorial
> >>grounds but that (b)
> >>would not be legal for us to host in the United
> >>States.

> >In some countries, works enter public domain 50
> years after author's death.
> >So, there are wagons of pictures and texts of
> authors who died between 1934
> >and 1954 which are PD in those countries but not PD
> in the US.
>
> All 1954 deaths are still have their works under
> copyright until the end
> of this year.  What you cite is the standard under
> international law.
> It is interesting to note that the countries that
> have or are pushing
> for longer copyright terms are rich ones with many
> businesses that are
> already heavily invested in their intellectual
> properties.  The artists
> that did the work more than 50 years ago have long
> since been paid off.
>
> Lately the third world countries have been more
> interested in
> agricultural subsidies since that has a greater
> impact on them than
> intellectual property.
>
> -Ec

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from_name: Vít Zvánovec

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Month abbreviations in LanguageCs.php - reaction to
	Ray Saintonge

body:
	Dear colleague,
	you have written:
> However copious the examples, and whatever the current practice, it is
> not accurate to say that these abbreviations do not exist.  I do have
> the book "Anglo-American Cataloging Rules" (for libraries) which lists
> these for several languages, including Czech.
	Could you be more precise? What does this book exactly say about
Czech language?
	It is true that you can find this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&q=Kv%C4%9B&btnG=Search. But if you look at this carefully, these
examples are *computer* lists. Czech orthographic standard says this:
"Nap?. Smetana se narodil r. 1824 v Litomy?li. - V Praze 17.
listopadu 1989; viz Jungmann?v Slovn?k V, 113 = Jungmann?v Slovn?k,
d?l V, strana 113; ? 9 odst. 2 p?sm. a) z?kona ?. 87/1991 Sb.; Praha
4-Nusle, Za Zelenou li?kou 17; po?ta Praha 36 apod. Jestli?e se v
datu ozna?uje den a m?s?c jen ??slicemi, p??e se za nimi te?ka: 8. 5.
1945 nebo 8. V. 1945; je-li v?ak den a m?s?c ps?n pomoc? lom?tka,
te?ky za ??slicemi se nep??ou: 8/5 1945 nebo 8/V 1945."
http://www.pravidla.cz/vice.php?cose=6
	In my view Wikipedia should respect native speakers. Is petition of
Czech Wikipedians to change in LanguageCs.php
'jan' => "1.",
'feb' => "2.",
'mar' => "3.",
'apr' => "4.",
'may' => "5.",
'jun' => "6.",
'jul' => "7.",
'aug' => "8.",
'sep' => "9.",
'oct' => "10.",
'nov' => "11.",
'dec' => "12.",
	really needed?
					Yours truly,
							V?t Zv?novec


body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>
>>But Britain and the other developed countries are not where the
>>distribution would be most useful.
>>
>>
>I'm not so sure about that.  Distribution in developed countries is
>important, because as we maximize our audience in those countries, we
>gain access to the hearts and minds of people who can fund our
>distribution in developing countries.
>
>Imagine a free Wikipedia dvd mailed to millions of households in the
>UK, along with a letter from me explaining who we are and what we are
>doing, and asking for money to distribute our work in Africa.  If we
>found a way to do that cheaply enough (for example, by working with
>popular magazines), the results would likely be amazing.
>
Ahh!  but that's looking at distribution in developed countries only as
a means to an end. :-)

>>With the British laws under discussion, more than one interpretation
>>is possible.  How do we determine which of two conflicting
>>interpretations is the right one?
>>
>>
>Well, the fact that interpretation may be difficult surely doesn't
>mean that we can just throw up our hands and ignore the issue.  We
>have to do _something_, so we should consult with people who are
>likely to know, and just do our best.
>
>
Certainly.  Even lawyers are likely to be divided in their opinions.
Doing "_something_" should be a decision, and not a default.   There
will be opportunities to change course as more information comes in.
For now, if they are alleging copyright infringement it is up to them to
make a specific accusation, and get the legal ball rolling.  What's the
down side?  The fact that there was a favorable decision in Bridgeman v.
Corel may eventually not stand up as valid law for the substantial
issue, but relying on it is evidence that you at least have a good faith
argument.

Statutory law makes no provision for poker bluffs.  They want us to
believe that they are playing with a full house.  Checking the bidding
around to them may be the best thing to do.

Ec


body:
Hey Jimbo,
	Thanks for the kind words and support.  I would enjoy working on it
very much, as would the people on the Old English mailing lists ENGLISH-L,
Old English Made Easy, and Forum for Composition in Old English.  What was
the deal with Klingon?  How'd that get a Wiki?
      OE is still active as a language, with new works being written even
now, and translation projects going for the Bible, Shakespeare, and other
works of literature.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 1:10 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: FW: Wikipedia for Old English

James R. Johnson wrote:
> May I ask why Klingon, and Esperanto have Wikis?

Esperanto is an active community.  Don't even ask about Klingon, that's a
long and sad story.

I fully support your request to have Old English, it has an ISO 639 3-letter
code (ang), after all.

I don't think "Why do you think it would be a good idea?" is much of an
objection to your plan.  Unless there's some reason to think that it's a bad
idea (Klingon, for example, was and is controversial), then if people want
to do it, they should do it.  "I would enjoy working on it" is a perfectly
valid reason.

--Jimbo
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from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 24

body:
On 5 Aug 2004, at 10:29, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:55:15 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Halterman <haltermannews at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 3 different issues
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID: <20040804225515.60159.qmail at web14823.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Well, the first thing you bring up is very interesting and should be
> watched, definitely, if not just outright squashed right now.
>
> About Neutrality, I really don't care what screen name a person has. I
> don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm a believer in picking your
> battles, and I think this is one that is relatively unimportant.
>
> -Michael

Any suggestions on *what* to do on the first issue or *how* to "squash
it" (as you say)?

- Jens


body:
Anglo-Saxon.  You got it.  On an ang/wikipedia.org, would it be alright to
use the lanugage's own name for itself? (Englisc)

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Timwi
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 1:41 PM
To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: FW: Wikipedia for Old English

James R. Johnson wrote:

> Sorry - there have been about 6 million speakers at the height of
> usage of Old English.  I guess it's like Latin in being a dead
> language, but just as deserving of a Wiki.

I am strongly in favour of a Wikipedia in the language that has the ISO code
'ang' -- but *PLEASE DO NOT* call it "Old English". Call it "Anglo-Saxon".
Please. Seriously. That's very important.

If you call it "Old English", people will constantly attempt to write
articles in Shakespearean, which is early Modern English.

Timwi

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from_name: Timwi

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Month abbreviations in LanguageCs.php - reaction
	to Ray Saintonge

body:
V?t Zv?novec wrote:

> 	In my view Wikipedia should respect native speakers. Is petition of
> Czech Wikipedians to change in LanguageCs.php
> 'jan' => "1.",
> [etc.]
> 	really needed?

No, as I said, it's not. Just define your date formats in such a way
that they never use the abbreviated month names, and you won't need them.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: phase3/includes Parser.php,1.135.2.12,1.135.2.13

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Fix for [ 988793 ] Pages in category saved as links when category page edited
>
> Disable link cache while running the categoryMagic list to make sure that
> pages under the category are not inadvertently recorded in the link tables
> when the category page is edited.

I thought we *want* those pages to be recorded in the link tables.

Isn't that what makes "What links here" and especially "Related Changes"
work for categories?

Timwi


subject: [Wikipedia-l] new upload form translations

body:
It looks like people are translating this form:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation/New_upload_form

But this form is clearly inferior to the one proposed by Erik on
this page:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Commons

--Jimbo


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: [fwd: Wikipedia,
	the free encyclopedia in-accurate history of Goa]

body:
Frank wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong: Jimbo is the creator of Wikipedia, but it is
> not "his site" anymore. The Wikipedia community has made it so much
> larger that something like this shouldn't really be sent to Jimbo, it
> should be posted on the talk page and/or the person can edit the page
> directly (as Jimbo said.)

Well, sure, but I don't mind getting requests like that.

--Jimbo


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Google ads and other ramblings by Chris

body:
--- Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote on WikiEN-l:
> Cafepress are very expensive to start with and to add another 5 quid on
> top of their steep prices certainly doesn't help. Or look for an
> alternative to Cafepress. But never worry folks -- at least the
> Wikipaedia shop *IS* close to its first cheque. In my own shop, I've
> had two sales in over a year -- earning me TWO quid!! Yay!!. (Then
> again, my own website is not nearly as important as the Wikipedia. ;-)

Yes CafePress is expensive but they do all the day-to-day work. How does the
Wikipedia shop function? Who processes orders? How are payments made? What
measures are taken to ensure that customer data are kept private?

I'm all for finding a cheaper alternative to CafePress, but I'm not interested
at all in processing orders (physically putting merchandise in boxes and taking
those boxes to the post office - not to mention storing the merchandise). If
and when we get paid staff, we might decide to do that. Until then I think that
using services like CafePress (but not necessarily that particular company) is
the only practical way to go.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
He's saying that he has asked for mediation but they aren't responding. How
about Jaygj, is he cooperating regarding mediation?

Fred

> From: David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:36:59 +0000
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Jayjg is now committing fraud and falsifying quotes.
>
> On 08/05/04 16:48, Robert wrote:
>
>> We need some help from the arbitration committee.
>
>
> I would guess they would say "try mediation, or even the
> talk page" first. Have you tried both of those in order?
>
>
> - d.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: phpbar at webvector.de

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Fatal error: Class PHPTAL_DBResultIterator must
	implement...

body:
Hello,

I got the following error, after updating PHP4 to PHP5:

Fatal error: Class PHPTAL_DBResultIterator must implement interface
Traversable as part of either Iterator or IteratorAggregate in Unknown
on line 0

MediaWiki Version: 1.3.0beta5

bye
Daniel Nolte


body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There is something a bit bugging me, though I might be wrong.
>
> I think anyone may any time begin to sell wikipedia related products
> (such as tee shirts) and keep all profits for himself.
>
> While this is okay with contents, I do not think it is okay with
> side-products which are obviously meant to bring money to the object of
> the promotion.
>
> I of course, do not speak of cafepress here.
>
> What can we do if people start selling wikipedia side products for their
> own benefit ?

We tell them to stop. If they don't then we tell CafePress (or whoever) about
the situation. This all comes under trademark law so we would be in a stronger
position if we had all our trademarks and logos registeredv (first in the U.S.,
then the EU and as needed in other places).

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


body:
--- Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> I wasn't trying to diminish them and I don't know a better alternative
> myself -- I wouldn't have my own shop with Cafepress if I knew a better
> provider.
> I was only trying to say that _from a customer's perspective_ 20 quid
> for a Tee *IS* possibly a bit on the pricey side.
> Sorry for any confusion about that.

I agree - CafePress is expensive. But as you state, there really aren't any
known good alternatives that are cheaper.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Stanislav Valasek

subject: [Wikitech-l] sk clarification

body:
Hello wikipedians,

we are just reviewing slovak translation and I will ask you for upload
probably after two weeks.

Up to that time, we have following clarification:
- Where can be set field 'sitesupport' => 'Donations', # Set a URL in
$wgSiteSupportPage in LocalSettings.php - was not able to find this
file. - Thanks for patience :-)
- and maybe one curious question: why page
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageSk.php is broken immediatelly
after line ""fa" => " f?rs? ..." and only in Mozilla Firefox (now
using version 0.9.2, WinXP, reproduced also on other PC). IE shows
this fine. All character after that line are messed up. Should I
report a bug or post a question to Firefox?

Thank you and lot of fun with wiki
--
Stanislav Valasek

____________________________________
http://www.logofun.pobox.sk - urobte radost svojmu telefonu


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

in_reply_to:
<20040805033816.0BAFD1AC01D5@mail.wikimedia.org> (James
	R. Johnson's message of "Wed, 4 Aug 2004 23:38:11 -0400")

body:
"James R. Johnson" <modean52 at comcast.net> writes:

> I guess it's like Latin in being a dead language, but just as
> deserving of a Wiki.

Encyclopedia writer should try to get the facts right before posting.
Latin is still in use (and it was never dead).  And, more important,
Latin something like a sleeping lingua franca.

Why do you think it would be a good idea writing texts using Old
English?

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Frank Pinter

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Jeopardy question

body:
On Mon,  2 Aug 2004 18:48:00 +0000 (UTC),
wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org <wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org> wrote:

> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:45:38 -0400
> From: moink <theresa.robinson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Jeopardy question
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID: <68537b550408021145561e82a6 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> > Hmm.  I do watch "Jeopardy" frequently, and I'm usually good at "getting
> > it"  What's so inconceivable about a big-eared African fox?
>
> There are obviously not enough "Princess Bride" fans in Wikipedia. :)
>
> moink
>
Maybe these people just don't subscribe to wikien-l?

Inconceivable.

--
Encoded with Double ROT13 - circumvention will be prosecuted!


from_name: Mathias Schindler

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "Babylon Glossary" using wikipedia

body:
http://info.babylon.com/cgi-bin/temp.cgi?id=47768&layout=gt_new.html

please note that there seems to be missing an transparent copy. I can't
tell if the compliance to the GFDL is lacking only in this point.

Here's a German Press release mentioning it:

[ BoxID 23510 ]

Neue Babylon-Glossare f?r die Olympischen Sommerspiele 2004 in Athen

Aus aktuellem Anlass gibt Babylon zwei kostenlose Glossare f?r
sportbegeisterte Babylon-Anwender heraus: Hintergrundinformationen und
Wettkampfprogramm per Mausklick

M?nchen, 05.08.2004. - Babylon, der bekannte Hersteller des
gleichnamigen 1-Klick-Wissens- und ?bersetzungstools, erg?nzt
rechtzeitig seine gro?e Sammlung um zwei Glossare mit Hintergrundwissen
?ber die Olympischen Spiele 2004. Damit erhalten Babylon-Anwender
sofortigen Zugriff auf allgemeine Informationen ?ber die Sommerspiele in
Athen und den Zeitplan der Wettbewerbe, alles mit einem einzigen Mausklick.

Das Olympic Games Glossary ist eine allgemeine ?bersicht und enth?lt 322
Definitionen mit historischen Informationen, allen Sportarten und
Disziplinen, L?nderk?rzeln und Hintergrundinformationen. Alle Artikel
stammen aus dem Material von Wikipedia (www.wikipedia.com) und wurden
von Babylon bearbeitet und integriert.

Der Olympic Games Schedule enth?lt das Programm der Wettk?mpfe mit Datum
und Uhrzeit. Die Anwender brauchen nur auf den Namen ihrer
Lieblingssportart zu klicken und erhalten sofort das jeweilige
Wettkampf-Programm im bekannten Babylon-Fenster auf Ihrem Bildschirm
angezeigt.

Wissen und W?rterb?cher

Die beiden Glossare zu den Olympischen Sommerspielen sind nur zwei aus
Babylons gro?er Sammlung von Glossaren, die allen Babylon Anwendern
kostenlos zur Verf?gung stehen. Die breite Palette deckt verschiedenste
Themen ab. Der Freizeit- und Sport-Index umfasst alleine Dutzende von
Informationsquellen zu Sportarten wie Bogenschie?en, Reiten, Fitness,
Golf, Kampfsport, Motorsport, Tennis und Fu?ball. Dar?ber hinaus
erhalten interessierte Anwender u.a. Glossare zu Computer & Internet,
Wirtschaft, Unterhaltung und Recht. Die Glossare stammen von bekannten
Firmen wie Britannica, Amazon, Accuweather und Cnet News oder von der
Babylon-Benutzergemeinde.

Die beiden neuen Glossare sind als kostenlose Erg?nzung f?r
Babylon-Anwender von der Website www.babylon.com (unter W?rterb?cher und
Glossare) erh?ltlich und k?nnen einfach und schnell aus dem Internet
lokal auf den PC geladen werden.

"Zu wichtigen und popul?ren Ereignissen gibt Babylon traditionell
kostenlose Glossare f?r seine Anwender heraus. Die beiden Glossare zu
den Olympischen Sommerspielen 2004 bieten Amateuren und Profis im
Sportbereich ?bersichtliche und praktische Informationen zum wichtigsten
Sportereignis der Welt mit einem einfachen Mausklick", erkl?rt Reinhard
Dobelmann, Gesch?ftsf?hrer der Babylon GmbH in M?nchen.
Ansprechpartner:

Frau Claudia Pulfer
eMail: c.pulfer at babylon.com
Telefon: 089 / 96273-190

Herr Dr. Philipp Grieb
eMail: ph at itredaktion.de
Telefon: +49-89-642 56765, Mobil +49-178-864 2734
Zust?ndigkeitsbereich: Media Relations, IT-Redaktion


from_name: Frank

body:
On Mon,  2 Aug 2004 22:30:30 +0000 (UTC),
wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org <wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org> wrote:
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:50:11 -0700
> From: "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] [fwd: Wikipedia,    the free encyclopedia in-accurate
>         history of Goa]
> To: wikien-l at wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <20040802205011.GM32655 at wikia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I have no opinion about this, I just forward it in case someone feels
> like looking at our articles.
>
> I informed the author that they could edit the site.
>
> ----- Forwarded message from . at .-----
>
> From: . at .
> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:30:29 -0700 (PDT)
> To: jwales at bomis.com
> Subject: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in-accurate history of Goa
>
> Jimmy Wales,
>
> The following is an in-accurate account of my peoples history. We
> Goans till today are waiting for our true freedom. Please do some more
> research to display the truth on your web site.
>
> When India became independent in 1947, Goa remained Portuguese. The
> Indian government of Jawaharlal Nehru insisted that it, along with a
> few other minor Portuguese holdings, be turned over to
> India. Portugal, however, refused. France, which had also had small
> enclaves in India (most notably Pondicherry), gave them up. Portugal,
> however, amended its constitution to have Goa made a Portuguese
> province and refused to surrender it.
>
> Opinions within Goa were mixed. The port was profiting immensely from
> being a conduit of smuggled goods into India, the strong Roman
> Catholic faith of the inhabitants also led to some affinity for
> Portugal. Many of the people were pro-India, however, and a pro-Indian
> resistance group began operating in the territory. In 1955 an unarmed
> invasion was launched by a mass of Indians following the teachings of
> Gandhi. The Portuguese met them with force and 21 were reported
> killed.
>
> In the 1960s the World Court and the United Nations General Assembly
> both ruled in India's favour in the dispute. World public opinion was
> also turning against Portugal due to their brutal actions in
> Angola. The United States, however, remained supportive of its NATO
> ally and would not allow the UN Security Council to rule against
> Portugal.
>
> The Indians offered continued special treatment for the Portuguese in
> Goa and protection of the area's distinct culture, but still the
> Portuguese refused to negotiate. This was mostly out of concern for
> the situation in Angola, where any concessions in Goa would weaken
> Portugal's colonial hold.
>
> In December 1961 India, under pressure from public opinion, and
> foreign pressure from the rest of the third world to oppose
> colonialism, moved into Goa. Twenty Indians and 17 Portuguese were
> killed in the fighting, which lasted twenty-six hours.
>
> After annexation the area was under military rule for five months, but
> the previous civil service was soon restored and the area became a
> federally administered territory.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> ----- End forwarded message -----

Correct me if I'm wrong: Jimbo is the creator of Wikipedia, but it is
not "his site" anymore. The Wikipedia community has made it so much
larger that something like this shouldn't really be sent to Jimbo, it
should be posted on the talk page and/or the person can edit the page
directly (as Jimbo said.)

Wikiacc

--
Encoded with Double ROT13 - circumvention will be prosecuted!


from_name: Dan Drake

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Interesting link on British copyright law...

body:
On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 00:17:57 UTC, Robert Graham Merkel
<robert.merkel at benambra.org> wrote:

>
> They were so kind to place their material online here:
>
> http://www.mda.org.uk/mcopyg/event02.htm

This is useful in its own right.  I note, though, that it's largely about
the use of things that are still under copyright; it has little to say
about the reproduction of old works of art.

>...
> 9. How can rights be enforced in the taking of photographs of archival
>  material?
>
>     * This is difficult to do under copyright law
>     * However, rights can be enforced under contract law

This seems to imply that the person who sneaks a good digital camera into
a museum and makes a good copy of The Man with the Hoe is not vilating any
copyright (he certainly is not), but he may be violating a contract
imposed by the owner as a price for being allowed to see the work.  If he
gives a copy of his file to someone else who puts it up on the Internet,
can the latter be attacked under any law at all?  I think not.

Not that Wikipedia should adopt a policy of encouraging people to violate
contracts; that _would_ incur a liability.

--
Dan Drake
dd at dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com

Whoever tries to imagine perfection simply reveals his own emptiness.
 --George Orwell


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] RK's complaints about jayjg

body:
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20040805/c43da31c/attachment.htm


subject: [Wikipedia-l] update on babylon / wikipedia content / gfdl

body:
Okay, I installed a 90-days trial version of this "babylon" software and
I installed that "Olympic Games Glossary"

The description says:

Autor: Babylon Ltd./Wikipedia

Autor eMail: info at babylon.com

Beschreibung: Quick reference for the Summer Olympic Games. The glossary
includes historical information, the Olympic sports and disciplines,
country codes and general background information.
All articles are based on Wikipedia's material on the Olympic Games, and
were edited by Babylon. This glossary is licensed under the GNU Free
Documentation License.

(wikipedia links to wikipedia.com, GNU FDL links to gnu.org and the
license url)
----

Here's an example article:

  Olympia

Olympia, a city of ancient Greece in Elis, is known for having been the
site of the Olympic Games in classical times. Held every olympiad (i.e.
every four years), the Olympic Games dating back at least as far as 776
BC. At the end of the 4th century, emperor Theodosius abolished them.

Olympia is also known for its gigantic Zeus statue made of ivory and
gold, one of the Seven Wonders of the World, made by Phidias.

Excavation of the Olympia temple district and its surroundings, mostly
conducted by German archeologists in the late 19th and early 20th
century, also uncovered the Hermes of Praxiteles statue and the stadium,
where the running contests took place.

This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License
(http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html).
It uses material from the Wikipedia article "Olympic Games"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_games).

These links cannot be clicked. A local copy of the license seems to be
missing.

---

Since the Press Release was German, I made a phone call to Munich and
asked them for a transparent copy.

Well, at least they were able to repeat the word "transparent" and they
confirmed that this glossary is made out of wikipedia content.

A tech guy will call me back tomorrow (it's after work hours here).

Anyway, the software seems to be similar to mobipocket and  tomeraider.
It the software scales up to the en-size of wikipedia, it might be
interesting just to support this crappy proprietary format as long as we
don't have a GPLed offline reading format (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I suggest we kindly tell them that it's fine and great to use wikipedia
content and that it could be so easy to stick to the license. Requesting
a version 1.1 and providing a transparent copy wouldn't harm them...

Mathias


subject: [WikiEN-l] RK's complaints about jayjg - trying again

body:
I've had a chance to briefly peruse RK's lengthy complaints about me
regarding the [[Relationships between segments of Judaism]] article.
Needless to say, I dispute their accuracy and veracity.  In some cases I am
simply baffled; for example, he has insisted on inserting numerous quotes
from Haredi Rabbis into the article, against the objections of a number of
contributors, but when I replaced the many lengthy quotations with a summary
of their views which briefly quotes them, he deleted that, calling it
"Ultra-Orthodox propaganda".

I also strongly object to RK's many statements of a personal nature,
especially the speculations regarding my beliefs.  His numerous claims about
me (including his statement that I am an "Ultra-Orthodox Jew") are simply
false, and I really hate wasting time on ad hominem argumentation.  I also
object to the histrionic and often hysterical rhetoric.

I have pleaded with RK to work with me on the article.  I have on many
occasions requested that RK support his edits in the Talk: page, with
limited success.   I have now asked him if he would like to go to mediation,
and look forward to a response.  I don't want to bore people any further, so
I simply welcome any interested party to read the relevant Talk: pages and
decide for themselves.

_________________________________________________________________
Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft?
SmartScreen Technology.
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
  Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the
first two months FREE*.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Month abbreviations in LanguageCs.php - reply to Timwi

body:
Sorry, I don't understand. If you look at
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speci?ln?:Recentchanges, you'll see
Uk?zat nov? zm?ny, po??naje od 16:56, 5. Srp 2004
5. Srp 2004 etc.
I can change it some other way than changing this?
# Dates
'jan' => "Led",
'feb' => "?no",
'mar' => "B?e",
'apr' => "Dub",
'may' => "Kv?",
'jun' => "?er",
'jul' => "?rv",
'aug' => "Srp",
'sep' => "Z??",
'oct' => "??j",
'nov' => "Lis",
'dec' => "Pro",
And as I said, why should LanguageCs.php contain these
"abbreviations" which are contrary to Czech language?
					V?t Zv?novec


from_name: M Atakan Gurkan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Some questions from WP-tr regarding copyright

body:
Hi,
I have asked some questions regarding a copyright situation in Turkish
Wikipedia in English Wikipedia's Copyright Problem's talk page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk%3ACopyright_problems#Some_questions_from_WP-tr
Finlay McWalter then suggested that I post it here since there is a relevant
discussion going on here at the moment. I won't rewrite what I have written
there though. Note that not all of this case is relevant to this list but I
am looking at the opinions of the editors at English Wikipedia and possible
past precedents.

The part relevant to ongoing discussions here is that an editor in WP-tr
claimed that the legality of his contribution is under Turkish law's
jurisdiction since he contributes from Turkey and the alleged (by me)
copyright violation is on a work originated in Turkey. My two cents on
the issue is this:

1- For copyright and other issues US law must be obeyed since distribution
takes from partially in the States.
2- For copyright and other issues, if the content is illegal in other
jurisdictions other than US, best effort should be made to indicate this on
those pages so while distributing Wikipedia in those countries the distributor
can remove them. But this should not be a reason to remove the content from
Wikipedia.

Actually whether the case I mention above falls under US or Turkish
jurisdiction is not relevant because Turkish law is fully compatible with
US law for this matter.

I would really appreciate if you could visit the URL above and provide some
precedent from the English Wikipedia.

Thanks,

ato


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Wikipedia in the news

body:
On Tue,  3 Aug 2004 20:17:16 +0000 (UTC),
wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org <wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org> wrote:
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:05:55 -0500
> From: Delirium <delirium at hackish.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in the news
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID: <410FF023.20707 at hackish.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Rick wrote:
>
> > This is a pretty good indication that our [[John Kerry]] article needs
> > SERIOUS NPOVing, since it's being praised by the Bush people:
> >
> > http://www.bushcountry.org/news/aug_news_pages/n_080204_kerry_facts.htm

The article seems to have been NPOVed already, or at least edited.
They quote what seems to be from an old version, and it was only three
days ago.

--
Encoded with Double ROT13 - circumvention will be prosecuted!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: FW: Wikipedia for Old English

body:
James R. Johnson wrote:

> Sorry - there have been about 6 million speakers at the height of usage
> of Old English.  I guess it's like Latin in being a dead language, but
> just as deserving of a Wiki.

I am strongly in favour of a Wikipedia in the language that has the ISO
code 'ang' -- but *PLEASE DO NOT* call it "Old English". Call it
"Anglo-Saxon". Please. Seriously. That's very important.

If you call it "Old English", people will constantly attempt to write
articles in Shakespearean, which is early Modern English.

Timwi


from_name: John Lee

subject: [WikiEN-l] 3 different issues

body:
That's...interesting. Action should definitely be taken on this - it's
outright cybersquatting. This guy's site(s) are/is illegal in more ways
than one.

-- John Lee (User:Johnleemk)

Jens Ropers wrote:

> (long, long winding text)
>


from_name: James R. Johnson

body:
The goal *is* to create content in Anglo-Saxon.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Saratxaga
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 3:24 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: FW: Wikipedia for Old English

Kaixo!

On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 01:19:44PM -0400, James R. Johnson wrote:
>       OE is still active as a language, with new works being written
> even now, and translation projects going for the Bible, Shakespeare,
> and other works of literature.

But consider that wikipedia goal is not to be a compialtion of litterary and
translation works (wikibook, on the other hand, is), but a medium to serve
information on all (or at least a wide range) of topics, in a given
language.

Transposed to classroom analogy, wikipedia is not a class given in English
about Anglosaxon culture, but it is mathematics, physics, biology etc
classes teached in Anglosaxon language.

You should ask if your main goal would be to create content *in* Anglosaxon,
or *about* Anglosaxon (that can be in the same langue too but that's not the
point).
In other words, do you plan to have at some points articles about computer
science, biology, space travel, modern history, etc. written in Anglosaxon,
or is your plan to focus on litterary/linguistic topics related with the
langue? In the second case, maybe wikibook with a small encyclopedia-like
section for those topics would be a better idea.

> James R. Johnson wrote:
> > May I ask why Klingon, and Esperanto have Wikis?

Esperanto is a living language that a lot of people use to communicate and
share knowledge on all sort of topics.

As far as I know Klingon and Anglosaxon are only used by a very small
community, and not for normal everyday communication, not to share knowledge
in all sort of topics, but rather to communicate and share knowledge on some
topics only, very related to the langue itself.

So, indeed, I think that, for exactly the same reasons as I exposed above,
Klingon should maybe have been on wikibook rather than on wikipedia.

wikibook and wikipedia are, technically, exactly the same (it's exactly the
same software used); however, on wikipedia you can expect to have some sort
of symetry between the languages, on the long time tending to a similar
content (detailed data on a majority of topics), only in different
languages.
As I doubt that languages not used for normal everyday communication nor
normal knowledge transmission would ever get very developped wikipedias,
those will look "incomplete" in comparaison with others.

On the other hand, a wikibook site is more or less independent of other
wikibooks, its content doesn't reflect nor has to reflect nor is expected to
reflect the content of wikibooks in other languages; and so can be shaped
and target the content and topics best suited to the culture vehiculated by
the language.

> objection to your plan.  Unless there's some reason to think that it's
> a bad idea (Klingon, for example, was and is controversial), then if
> people want to do it, they should do it.  "I would enjoy working on
> it" is a perfectly valid reason.

But I think some people may request a wikipedia because they don't know ther
would be a possibility to have a similar functionality without the burden of
the requirement to build an encyclopedic general purpose content.

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID:
0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or
Esperanto] [min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj
lingvoj]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: sk clarification

body:
Stanislav Valasek wrote:

> we are just reviewing slovak translation and I will ask you for upload
> probably after two weeks.

You do not need for the LanguageSk.php file to be updated anymore. You
can change the translation by modifying the messages in the MediaWiki
namespace (please see
http://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0peci%C3%A1lne:Allmessages).

> - and maybe one curious question: why page
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageSk.php is broken immediatelly
> after line ""fa" => " f?rs? ..."

Because someone put invalid HTML in there (most of the numerical
entities are missing the trailing semicolon). I'll try to fix it.

Timwi


from_name: Jakob Voss

subject: [WikiEN-l] Commercial glossary using Wikipedia articles

body:
Hi,

I just discovered that babylon.com made a free glossary of 322 terms
from the english Wikipedia relating to the Olympic Games:

http://info.babylon.com/cgi-bin/temp.cgi?id=47768&layout=gt_new.html

Unfourtunaltely you have to download their software, that will expire
after a period of time, two read the glossary. I wonder If the glossary
contains 5 authors or a link to the version history and if they modified
anything. If they modified parts of the articles, they have to publish a
transparent copy that is readable without they proprietary software. Can
anybody check this? There is no publically available list of which
articles they collected. At least this should be done.

I like projects using Wikipedia content if Wikipedia can benefit from
they additions and modifications.

Babylon has a wide range of free glossaries contributed by Babylon's
community of users: http://www.babylon.com/gloss/glossaries.html
But you cannot use them If you do not buy their software. It's a shame.

The firm is located in Israel and Germany. There is a court decision
that confirmed the GPL in Germany so we should also be able two refer to
the GFDL.

Thanks,
   Jakob

P.S: There is a German press release about it:
http://www.pressebox.de/index.php?boxid=23510&sid=searchengine_sid


subject: [WikiEN-l] UTTM

body:
On 5 Aug 2004, at 19:26, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:09:53 -0700
> From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Danny has been nominated as our next
> 	Mediation	Committee co-chair -- please weigh in!
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID: <411269E1.8080705 at telus.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Ray Saintonge:
>
> Excuse me for raining on the jargon, but what it "UTTM"?

Up To The Minute.
Apparently after a CBS News programme. (Or they have adopted a
previously existent catchphrase.) Anyway, it's not the most well-known
of phrases.

- ropers


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

body:
Kaixo!

On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 01:19:44PM -0400, James R. Johnson wrote:
>       OE is still active as a language, with new works being written even
> now, and translation projects going for the Bible, Shakespeare, and other
> works of literature.

But consider that wikipedia goal is not to be a compialtion of
litterary and translation works (wikibook, on the other hand, is),
but a medium to serve information on all (or at least a wide range)
of topics, in a given language.

Transposed to classroom analogy, wikipedia is not a class given
in English about Anglosaxon culture, but it is mathematics, physics,
biology etc classes teached in Anglosaxon language.

You should ask if your main goal would be to create content *in*
Anglosaxon, or *about* Anglosaxon (that can be in the same langue too
but that's not the point).
In other words, do you plan to have at some points articles about
computer science, biology, space travel, modern history, etc. written
in Anglosaxon, or is your plan to focus on litterary/linguistic topics
related with the langue? In the second case, maybe wikibook with
a small encyclopedia-like section for those topics would be a better
idea.

> James R. Johnson wrote:
> > May I ask why Klingon, and Esperanto have Wikis?

Esperanto is a living language that a lot of people use to communicate
and share knowledge on all sort of topics.

As far as I know Klingon and Anglosaxon are only used by a very small
community, and not for normal everyday communication, not to share
knowledge in all sort of topics, but rather to communicate and share
knowledge on some topics only, very related to the langue itself.

So, indeed, I think that, for exactly the same reasons as I exposed
above, Klingon should maybe have been on wikibook rather than
on wikipedia.

wikibook and wikipedia are, technically, exactly the same (it's exactly
the same software used); however, on wikipedia you can expect to have
some sort of symetry between the languages, on the long time tending
to a similar content (detailed data on a majority of topics), only
in different languages.
As I doubt that languages not used for normal everyday communication
nor normal knowledge transmission would ever get very developped
wikipedias, those will look "incomplete" in comparaison with others.

On the other hand, a wikibook site is more or less independent of other
wikibooks, its content doesn't reflect nor has to reflect nor is
expected to reflect the content of wikibooks in other languages;
and so can be shaped and target the content and topics best suited
to the culture vehiculated by the language.

> objection to your plan.  Unless there's some reason to think that it's a bad
> idea (Klingon, for example, was and is controversial), then if people want
> to do it, they should do it.  "I would enjoy working on it" is a perfectly
> valid reason.

But I think some people may request a wikipedia because they don't
know ther would be a possibility to have a similar functionality without
the burden of the requirement to build an encyclopedic general purpose
content.

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
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from_name: Edward Peschko

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Modifying mediawiki to be a frame rather than the
	whole page

body:
hey all,

I was trying to modify mediawiki so that an editing panel was in its own frame,
and the menu at the side of the editing panel was in a different frame (so they could
exist independent of each other).

However, when I try to split them up and click on one of the buttons in the
editing menu, the other frame closes...

Any idea on what is going on here and how to modify it so that clicking on a editing
button preserves the structure of the original page?

Thanks much,

Ed


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jayjg is now committing fraud and falsifying quotes.

body:
On 08/05/04 16:48, Robert wrote:

> We need some help from the arbitration committee.

I would guess they would say "try mediation, or even the
talk page" first. Have you tried both of those in order?

- d.


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: new upload form translations

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>It looks like people are translating this form:
>
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation/New_upload_form
>
>But this form is clearly inferior to the one proposed by Erik on
>this page:
>
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Commons
>
In terms of design, Erik's might well be an improvement. But I'm not
sure where it was in terms of development, I only know there's a couple
of nice pictures of how it would look. With Andre's (Sansculotte's)
form, I understood the form itself was pretty much ready to go. Maybe if
we can superimpose Erik's layout on Andre's work, we would be able to
combine the best parts from each.

Erik's design is also set up with the specific Wikimedia Commons
proposal in mind. That project still seems to be waiting for some
impetus to get off the ground. I know there was some difference of
opinion as to how much preparation was needed before rollout, but maybe
it would make sense to use the new upload form as a reason to get that
project actually started?

--Michael Snow


from_name: Andre Darmochwal

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: new upload form

body:
> O.k., so, it sounds like you're right, we need patches.  Does anyone
> know where the "big fany totally redone form" proposal is, so that
> someone can code to that spec?

Hi all,

you can find my proposal of the new upload form as HTML-Files here:

http://www.ru-info.de/upload_neu.htm

If no licence is specified the uploader gets the licence thing
explained:

http://www.ru-info.de/upload_lizenz.htm

and the entries within the form should be automatically added to the
image-page:

http://www.ru-info.de/upload_ergebnis.htm

If I would be able to code them, I would have done it long, but
unfortunately I do not have the knowledge to do this.

The existing improved Upload-form at test.wikipedia does in my opinion
meet our needs only far, as uploaders can ignore to make entries as
easy as now. The biggest problem I see with the current upload form is
not not users forgetting to add license information rather than their
unawareness of types of licenses and the importance of licensing
informations with uploaded images.

Andre


from_name: Tim Starling

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Fatal error: Class PHPTAL_DBResultIterator must
	implement...

body:
phpbar at webvector.de wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I got the following error, after updating PHP4 to PHP5:
>
> Fatal error: Class PHPTAL_DBResultIterator must implement interface
> Traversable as part of either Iterator or IteratorAggregate in Unknown
> on line 0
>
> MediaWiki Version: 1.3.0beta5

This is a PHPTAL bug, it's not really our responsibility. Quoting
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=5198753&forum_id=32803

  Regarding PHP5
  --------------

  As you spotted, PHPTAL doesn"t work with PHP5, it is a known problem
  related to many ref tricks I used to make it work as expected under
  PHP4. I am obligated to rewrite many things and I will release a first
  beta version within the month of August.

(end quote)

Although it hasn't been thoroughly tested, it may be possible to use
MediaWiki in PHP5 by disabling PHPTAL. This means you won't be able to
use the new monobook skin, or any other PHPTAL skin. Add the following
line to LocalSettings.php:

$wgUsePHPTal = false;

If Laurent Bedubourg comes through with his promise and releases a
PHP5-compatible version of PHPTAL some time in August 2004, then we'd
expect to have a PHP5-compatible version of MediaWiki released in the
month or so after that, depending on the vagaries of our release cycle.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Jens Ropers

body:
see below :)

On 5 Aug 2004, at 22:32, wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org wrote:

> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 00:29:00 +0530
> From: Hemanshu Desai <hemanshu.desai at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Google ads and other ramblings by Chris
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Message-ID: <efaed5a004080511595a693819 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:20:02 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
> <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>>> Or mugs, mouse mats, tee shirts, or other merchandising?
>>>
>>> I'd buy a Wikipedia mug.
>>
>> We already have this:
>> http://www.cafeshops.com/wikipedia
>>
>> It brings in very very close to nothing.  I believe Erik told me when
>> I was in Berlin that we are getting close to the threshold for them to
>> cut us our first check of $100.  Something like that anyway, I'm sure
>> he'll clarify if this is materially wrong.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>>
>
> We already have it but not many know about it.
>
> Hemanshu
>

_Lower our margin_, I'd say.

Cafepress are very expensive to start with and to add another 5 quid on
top of their steep prices certainly doesn't help. Or look for an
alternative to Cafepress. But never worry folks -- at least the
Wikipaedia shop *IS* close to its first cheque. In my own shop, I've
had two sales in over a year -- earning me TWO quid!! Yay!!. (Then
again, my own website is not nearly as important as the Wikipedia. ;-)

Thanks and regards,
Jens Ropers

There are two types of IT techs: The ones who watch soap operas and the
ones who watch progress bars.
http://www.ropersonline.com/elmo/#108681741955837683
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body:
see below

On 5 Aug 2004, at 23:44, Daniel Mayer wrote:

> --- Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote on WikiEN-l:
>> Cafepress are very expensive to start with and to add another 5 quid
>> on
>> top of their steep prices certainly doesn't help. Or look for an
>> alternative to Cafepress. But never worry folks -- at least the
>> Wikipaedia shop *IS* close to its first cheque. In my own shop, I've
>> had two sales in over a year -- earning me TWO quid!! Yay!!. (Then
>> again, my own website is not nearly as important as the Wikipedia. ;-)
>
> Yes CafePress is expensive but they do all the day-to-day work. How
> does the
> Wikipedia shop function? Who processes orders? How are payments made?
> What
> measures are taken to ensure that customer data are kept private?
>
> I'm all for finding a cheaper alternative to CafePress, but I'm not
> interested
> at all in processing orders (physically putting merchandise in boxes
> and taking
> those boxes to the post office - not to mention storing the
> merchandise). If
> and when we get paid staff, we might decide to do that. Until then I
> think that
> using services like CafePress (but not necessarily that particular
> company) is
> the only practical way to go.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

I wasn't trying to diminish them and I don't know a better alternative
myself -- I wouldn't have my own shop with Cafepress if I knew a better
provider.
I was only trying to say that _from a customer's perspective_ 20 quid
for a Tee *IS* possibly a bit on the pricey side.
Sorry for any confusion about that.

- Jens