from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] [arcadian127@yahoo.co.uk: Priory of Sion]

body:
I see that this page is the subject of quite a little edit war.  I
know nothing about it one way or the other, and just wanted to bring
it to the attention of a wider audience.

--Jimbo

----- Forwarded message from arcadian127 <arcadian127 at yahoo.co.uk> -----

From: arcadian127 <arcadian127 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:48:04 +0100 (BST)
To: jwales at bomis.com
Subject: Priory of Sion

Dear Sir,

Your definition for the entry "Priory of Sion" in
Wikepedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion

is a mish-mash of romantic twaddle.

I keep trying to change the definition by creating a
more realistic account but my version keeps getting
deleted. Furthermore, the link to our website:
http://www.priory-of-sion.com
is part of the useless romantic definition

I do not want that article to use a Link to our
website because we do not want to be associated with
that particular "definition" - it is pure nonsense.

I have used a partly translated chapter from a book by
Pierre Jarnac as the main part of my definition - no
copyright has been violated because Jarnac and myself
interchange each other's material - he uses my
material freely in his books.

I enclose the definition on the Priory of Sion that is
a reasonable definition below this message - Is there
any possibility that you can make this version stick
without it being constantly deleted?

Thank you very much.

Most Sincerely Yours,
Paul Smith

Pierre Jarnac, Les Archives de Rennes-le-Chateau
pp.567-575 (1987)

Historical Note on the Priory of Sion

For the obviously capable reader who has an uncanny
ability to transform a tiny French village of 70
inhabitants into the secret society capital of France,
then the name "Priory of Sion", itself, appears to be
a mysterious and untouchable entity. After the name of
this organisation appears on the scene, one Pierre
Plantard swiftly follows and with him a whole secret
society seemingly hidden away for centuries
re-emerges.

In reality, the name "Priory of Sion", given almost 40
years ago by Pierre Plantard to an organisation
without any financial goals, is hardly original. Not
only is the name "de Sion" found close to where
Plantard lived, hence the mountain in Haute-Savoie
called, "Mont Sion" on the route to Annecy-Geneva,
this name also goes back to a religious community at
the time of the Crusades, whose demise came after
several centuries on the outskirts of Orleans.

In 1967, those for whom this confusion was to be most
profitable, bestowed upon themselves the legacy of
this ancient order, one that was far from their own. A
book called the LIVRE DES CONSTITUTIONS DU PRIEURE DE
SION, allegedly published in 1954 in Geneva and which
to everyone's great chagrin has never been seen (it
has been established by Pierre Jarnac that this book
never existed), claimed a link with the original
religious community called "Sion". The only trace of
this Phantom Book is to be found in - guess where? -
the Bibliotheque Nationale in one of those mysterious
pamphlets that were deposited in the 1960s under the
name "Dossiers Secrets".

Where a historical connection does emerge is that a
"Priory of Sion" was recorded as having existed. Only
its real name was the "Abbey of Notre Dame of Mount
Sion", or "of the Mount of Sion". Godefroi de
Bouillon, in 1099, founded the Abbey of Notre-Dame of
Mount Sion in Jerusalem; it was a religious community
comprised of monks. Situated at Saint-Jean of Acre it
subsisted until 1187, however, in 1291, with the
Muslims reclaiming Acre from the Crusades, the monks,
having lost their possessions in the Holy Land, fled.
The last of the monks from this order went to Sicily
on the invitation of Count Roger and his wife, the
Princess Adelasie.

In France other monks of this community, who were
living close to Orleans, had previously been brought
back by Louis VII in 1149 when he returned from the
Crusades. They started a priory of Saint-Samson of
Orleans. They were given a donation and confirmed by
Pope Adrian in 1158. By 1281, this community was
already in decline as there are records that show that
only two members were in their choir, then in 1289
there was only one member. At this point in time the
abbey was on the verge of extinction, but then its
other members from Sicily came over to find refuge
after years of persecution. This last community, for
whom Henri IV offered to build an abbey, died out in
the early part of the 17th century for various reasons
such as lack of recruitment, ageing monks, no money,
etc.

E.G. Rey, an archivist from Paris, living in Orleans
during the 1880s became interested in the Abbey of
Notre-Dame du Mont Sion. He found out that the
archives of the Priory of Saint-Samson, repatriated
from Sicily in the 14th century, were kept in the
department of the Loiret, where they had been placed
during the Revolution. Therein he discovered a Charter
of the Acts for the Priory of Saint-Samson of Orleans.
In particular, in the Act by Pope Alexander III there
is confirmation that the Monks of Mount Sion are the
owners of the Priory of Saint-Samson of Orleans. Rey
was also able to compile a list of all the Abbots of
Notre-Dame de Sion.

The only outstanding traits of this religious
community are that they had an illustrious founder,
Godefroi de Bouillon, and a religiously inspired name.
Otherwise they were an Order without much history and
void of prestige. Because of their relative obscurity
they were probably chosen by Plantard and Co as
perfect fodder for their bogus historical claims.

Note from Paul Smith:

In 1989, following a period of retirement from 1984,
Pierre Plantard revived his bogus Priory of Sion with
a new Pedigree and Mythological History - the
"Dossiers Secrets" version of the Priory of Sion was
rejected as a fraud with it being written under the
influence of LSD in 1967 by Philippe Toscan du
Plantier - the latest 1989 version of the Priory of
Sion had nothing to do with either the Crusades or the
Templars but had rather been founded in 1681 in
Rennes-le-Chateau.

Pierre Plantard also concocted a new and different
List of Grand Masters of the Priory of Sion that was
to prove his downfall - he claimed that Roger Patrice
Pelat had been a Grand Master. When the French
Magistrate Thierry Jean-Pierre investigated the
financial scandal involving Pelat he ordered the
search of Plantard's house in 1993 that yielded a
hoard of documents claiming that Plantard was the
"true King of France" - detaining Plantard for a
subsequent 48-hour interrogation Thierry Jean-Pierre
forced a confession from Plantard that the claim was
made up. Plantard was let-off with a warning - and he
was never to revive his Priory of Sion activities
again.

Plantard lived in hiding between 1993 and his death in
2000. This was not the first time that Plantard was in
trouble with the French Legal System - Plantard had
served time in prison previously during the 1940s and
1950s.

____________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

----- End forwarded message -----


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Arvind Narayanan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Extension syntax vote begins

body:
On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 09:23:06PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Apr 14, 2004, at 19:02, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > Brion-
> >> I'd really appreciate it if these straw polls were *labeled* as such,
> >> instead of being given the appearance of official binding referenda.
> >
> > That would be misleading. This vote is as binding as any such technical
> > vote is going to get. If the developers see profound reasons not to
> > implement the vote result, they may of course decide not to do so;
> > however, these should be good reasons, there should be developer
> > consensus
> > about them, and they should be explained to the voters.
>
> Please reconcile the above with "The point of these polls is to get a
> reasonably representative *sample* of Wikimedia opinions."
>
Brion, this looks like hair splitting to me. Since it isn't possible
to have a poll in which every single wikipedian casts their vote, what
Eric meant was that the poll should be comprehensive enough as to leave
no reasonable doubt that as to which option would be the winner if
everyone who had an opinion did express it. In this respect the poll
was entirely satisfactory. What's the problem?

Arvind
--
Its all GNU to me


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Daniel-
>
>>So, has Perl knowingly abused any sysop user rights on the Maori Wikipedia,
>>Wikibooks, or Meta?  Granted he failed to follow the largely unwritten admin
>>rules for Meta, but an apparent honest mistake is hardly grounds for
>>de-adminship (unless he does it again after being informed of those rules).
>>His actions on Meta seemed to be acts in good faith as far as I could see.

He reached his position by lying and deception.

> I agree. Meta is a bit of a craphole and Alexander did what he could to
> clean it up. I see no evidence that there was any attempt to resolve this
> matter in personal discussion - there is certainly no message on his talk
> page. Why does this need to be discussed on a public mailing list?

Like I said before, I want Perl desysopped on meta. I'm not too keen on
unilateral action, so it's not something that can be done with a private
discussion.

> The policy issues on Meta should be separated in the discussion from any
> personal issues. As he notes on his user page, Alex is a kid with
> Asperger's syndrome. Don't give him too much of a hard time, please.

I used to think that way, but contact with another Asperger's sufferer
on Wikipedia changed my mind. PMelvilleAustin is a model WikiCitizen. He
has trouble understanding policy and social conventions, but instead of
acting impulsively and trying to cover up complaints, he seeks advice
and profusely apologises for any wrongdoing. When challenged over his
decision making ability, he quietly resigned sysopship, an honour which
had originally been foisted on him unexpectedly. AS is not an excuse.
Indeed, if you read up on AS, you find that the disorder only goes a
small way towards explaining Perl's behaviour.

>If he
> does something really stupid there are more than enough ways to undo it.
>
> Furthermore, Meta issues belong on foundation-l, not on
> wikipedia-l, as Meta is not just about Wikipedia.

I don't mind moving to foundation-l if that's what you want.

-- Tim Starling


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Use of noncommercial-only images

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> We had agreed a while ago that we don't want to allow such images. In the
> time since, people have tagged all these images with
> {{msg:noncommercial}}. Most of them are still in use. It would now be easy
> to locate and remove them all.
>
> However, I certainly don't want to get into an edit war about that,
> especially when some people continue to insist that such images should be
> allowed.

Erik is wise to proceed cautiously here, because causing a war over
this isn't really in anyone's best interest.  But, ultimately, these
things do have to be resolved properly

> So we need to make this policy official ASAP. An official
>pronouncement from Jimbo would be the most effective,

I officially pronounce that as of June 30, 2004, content which we are
using _solely_ by virtue of non-free licenses should be removed from
Wikipedia.  In the meantime, these should be removed from Wikipedia
with reasonable haste, but out of respect for those who contributed
them and have worked hard to obtain these permissions, we should try
to find replacements whenever possible.

This decree is only about non-free licenses _as a justification_ for
images being on Wikipedia, and does not comment on, nor affect,
evolving doctrine on "fair use".  Fair use is good *and bad* for
entirely different reasons, and that's a whole set of issues that
remains to be fully worked out.  For the time being, I think we should
rely on fair use, because it's a good thing, but cautiously so.

--Jimbo


from_name: John Knouse

subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
Okay, I screwed up.  I moved Kirksville back to Kirksville, Missouri, by
cut-and-paste, then realized I'd goofed, and I moved the talk page
properly.  Then tried to redo the page move, but it wouldn't let me
because of the talk page.  So I moved the talk page back, and it still
wouldn't let me because of the page history.  Would someone please
straighten this out?  All that needs to happen is for Kirksville and its
talk page to be moved back to Kirksville, Missouri.

--
"That is one beautiful tree." -- John Wayne as Davy Crocket in the movie
The Alamo.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Ivan Krstic

subject: [Wikitech-l] Problems with headers

body:
Timwi wrote:
> The server is running PHP 4.1.2 and MySQL 3.23.49. I don't know how to
> find out the version of Apache; if you need it, please let me know.

Your PHP is probably too old. To find out Apache versions, run the
apache binary with -v or -V (for compile options); alternatively, unless
you've told Apache not to talk about its version, you can just request
an inexistent page (yourserver/inexistent.html) and read the standard
footer. If neither works - for instance, if the server is not yours -
you can telnet to port 80 and issue a HEAD directly; this'll work unless
version hiding was explicitly turned on in httpd.conf.

Cheers,
Ivan


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/includes Parser.php, 1.86,
	1.87

body:
On Apr 15, 2004, at 09:06, Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> div again, we don't really know what will be inside the center tags.
> Could be another div for example, or a table.

In my experience,
 and  don't do
the same thing. Mozilla's standard stylesheet uses a custom -moz-center
setting to achieve the  rendering.

Demonstration: http://leuksman.com/misc/div-center.html

The
 inside the  block is centered in its parent's content
area, but the
 inside the
 block
actually shows up left aligned (though the text inside it is centered).
Mozilla's default stylesheet uses a custom "text-align: -moz-center" to
achieve  rendering, which makes me think there's just no good
way to emulate it completely with CSS2.

Anyway, while  is forbidden in XHTML 1.0 Strict, it's *not*
forbidden by XHTML 1.0 Transitional. Might be better to leave the
s as they are for now.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] SMILES

body:
Whatever extension syntax we decide on, I hereby officially ask for the
support of SMILES. SMILES are a simple (wiki-way!) syntax for describing
molecular structures. For a tutorial and examples, see

    http://www.daylight.com/dayhtml/smiles/smiles-intro.html

Automatic rendering should
* ease the addition of molecular structures to articles
* make uploaded structures obsolete (save space/avoid copyright
issues/reduce cluttering of image namespace)
* unified look'n'feel

There appears to be a toolkit at
    http://www.daylight.com/products/smiles_kit.html
but I didn't look into it yet. There is also a Java app that can render
SMILES into PNG, somwhere...

Magnus


from_name: Alex Barth

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: how to change language subsequently?

body:
brion,

thanks for your quick reply.

> 2) Run maintenance/rebuildMessages.php to re-import the messages.
> You'll have to temporarily take out the maintenance script warning in
> your LocalSettings.php to run it, probably. It needs to be run from the
> command line. (This'll be cleaner in 1.3.x...)

yep, the problem is, that i installed with in-place install, so the script
says:

Can't use command-line utils with in-place install yet, sorry.

is there a workaround?

alex b


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Problems with headers

body:
Hi,

I've installed the newest MediaWiki release (1.2.4) on a server here at
college. It was previously running an older version, but someone
accidentally deleted it, so I had to reinstall it.

I'm getting this error in the server log:

   [Thu Apr 15 13:35:51 2004] [error] [client 131.111.193.146] malformed
   header from script. Bad header=HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently:
   /usr/lib/cgi-bin/srcf-php-handler

and, of course, the browser displays the "Internal Server Error"
message. I'm getting the same when the script tries to return a "304 Not
Modified".

The server is running PHP 4.1.2 and MySQL 3.23.49. I don't know how to
find out the version of Apache; if you need it, please let me know.

Thanks for any help,
Timwi


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikipedia-l] SMILES

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

> Whatever extension syntax we decide on, I hereby officially ask for
> the support of SMILES. SMILES are a simple (wiki-way!) syntax for
> describing molecular structures. For a tutorial and examples, see
>
>    http://www.daylight.com/dayhtml/smiles/smiles-intro.html
>
> Automatic rendering should
> * ease the addition of molecular structures to articles
> * make uploaded structures obsolete (save space/avoid copyright
> issues/reduce cluttering of image namespace)
> * unified look'n'feel
>
> There appears to be a toolkit at
>    http://www.daylight.com/products/smiles_kit.html
> but I didn't look into it yet. There is also a Java app that can
> render SMILES into PNG, somwhere...
>
> Magnus
>
>
>

I agree, SMILES looks excellent as a way of representing chemical
diagrams as remarkably short and editable strings.

So, we would have something like...

---- QUOTE ----

Ethanol's [[chemical formula]] is
[[Carbon|C]]2[[Hydrogen|H]]5[[hydroxyl|OH]]  and
its molecular structure is

:<smiles>CCO</smiles>

---- UNQUOTE ----

The Java app appears to be http://www.molinspiration.com/docu/mitools.html

Both appear to be closed-source software. Is there an open/free
implementation of a SMILES renderer anywhere?

Perhaps this would make a good term project for a Computer Science student?

Can any of the existing TeX packages be used / adapted for this?

-- Neil


from_name: Götz Hoffart

subject: [Wikitech-l] Changing static text

body:
Hi,

I'd like to use Mediawiki 1.2.4 for an internal documentation system.

The text "Main Page - From SoftCultureWiki, the free encyclopedia" is
not *really* targeting the content. And the footnote "... under GNU
Free Documentation License" is wrong, too.

How can I change these texts? I found them in Language.php and changed
them but nothing happened after reloading the site.

Regards
G?tz


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Changing static text

body:
G?tz Hoffart wrote:

> The text "Main Page - From SoftCultureWiki, the free encyclopedia" is
> not *really* targeting the content. And the footnote "... under GNU Free
> Documentation License" is wrong, too.
>
> How can I change these texts? I found them in Language.php and changed
> them but nothing happened after reloading the site.

If you have set $wgUseDatabaseMessages to true, then you need to change
[[MediaWiki:Fromwikipedia]] and [[MediaWiki:Gnunote]], respectively.

Timwi


subject: [Wikipedia-l] SMILES

body:
I meant to say "adapted _as a render back-end_ for this".

The pipeline must be:
    parse SMILES string -
    generate graph of atoms and bonds  (possibly as CML?) -
    work out 2d/3d structure -
    generate graphical depiction of structure -
    render depiction to .PNG graphic (or to SVG as/when widely available?)

It looks like
http://www-ra.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/software/joelib/introduction.html
might be the solution to several of these problems. It's GPL / LGPL
free/open-source software, reads SMILES, and can generate graphics and
do lots of other things.

See
http://www-ra.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/software/joelib/screenshots/java.html
for some screenshots.

-- Neil


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:Perl

body:
This evening, on meta, Perl blocked a user, with the
ip adress of 24.228.45.144 for one hour. The motive
given is "vandal".

Here is the only edit of the guy on meta

http://meta.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedians_by_age&curid=5960&diff=32175&oldid=32172

Perl reverted this edit using roll back feature
http://meta.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedians_by_age&curid=5960&diff=0&oldid=32175

Then blocked the editor

* 23:04, 15 Apr 2004, Perl blocked 24.228.45.144
(expires 00:04, 16 Apr 2004) (contribs) (unblock)
(vandal)

-------

The so called vandal is an english user
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User%3AEtaonish

I see no evidence on his page that he is a vandal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=Etaonish

I unblocked the user  on meta and put a note on his
english page.

-------

I asked Perl on irc why he had done so

his answers were

AlexanderStaggeringFluffy: he hasn't made any
contributions except vandalising the address listing

Alexander it was only for 1 hour

Alexander i thought he was trollkein

-------

I have not unsysoped Perl.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


from_name: fabiform

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:Perl

body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I asked Perl on irc why he had done so
>
> his answers were

You missed some out.  (timestamps are UTC+1; and StaggeringFluffy is Anthere,
in case you're confused).

[23:18] <Alexander> StaggeringFluffy: he hasn't made any contributions except
vandalising the address listing
[23:18] <Alexander> it was only for 1 hour
[23:18] <Alexander> i thought he was trollkein
[23:20] <sannse> look again at his contributions Alex, just adding of a name to
[[Wikipedians by age]] as far as I can see
[23:20] <StaggeringFluffy> which vandalism ?
[23:20] <StaggeringFluffy> are you aware he is a regular en user ?
[23:20] <Alexander> my mistake
[23:20] <Alexander> i was hyper
[23:20] <Alexander> hypercautios

[snip]

[23:22] <StaggeringFluffy> Alexander
[23:22] <StaggeringFluffy> this user was not vandalising anything
[23:22] <StaggeringFluffy> he was only adding his name on a listing name
[23:23] <StaggeringFluffy> plus, one contribution is hardly proof of vandalism
[23:23] <StaggeringFluffy> there was no reason to confuse him with trollkein
[23:23] <StaggeringFluffy> there is no hurry for anything Alex
[23:23] <StaggeringFluffy> you do not need to be hypercautious
[23:24] <Alexander> sorry it won't happen again

(Perl admitted he made a mistake and said it wouldn't happen again)

Fabi.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Changing static text

body:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:11:37 +0100, Timwi wrote:

> G?tz Hoffart wrote:
>
>> The text "Main Page - From SoftCultureWiki, the free encyclopedia" is
>> not *really* targeting the content. And the footnote "... under GNU Free
>> Documentation License" is wrong, too.
>>
>> How can I change these texts? I found them in Language.php and changed
>> them but nothing happened after reloading the site.
>
> If you have set $wgUseDatabaseMessages to true, then you need to change
> [[MediaWiki:Fromwikipedia]] and [[MediaWiki:Gnunote]], respectively.

More info at
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_i18n.
--
Gabriel Wicke


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re-perl

body:
>You missed some out.  (timestamps are UTC+1; and
>StaggeringFluffy is Anthere,
>in case you're confused).

Nod. I send only the beginning, but later, I copied
the whole discussion on his talk page.

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk%3APerl

no time stamp. Feature not available on chatzilla :-)

Of course, he said he would not do it again.
However, he did not unblock the guy himself (granted
he may not have had the time), he did not reverted his
reversion, and he did not apologize to the user he
blocked.

------

And yes, there is no policy on meta about blocking
people for bad reasons. No policy against reverting
good edits and calling people vandal by mistake. And
no policy to say that in case of mistake, it is a good
idea to apology. There are only other sysops here to
take time to check each of his steps, correct his
mistakes, then explain him why he was wrong.

------

I do not feel well, because I feel I am doing the cop.
Which I do not feel like doing. Which I do not feel
like I should do against any other sysop.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Problems with headers

body:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 13:49:58 +0100, Timwi wrote:

> The server is running PHP 4.1.2 and MySQL 3.23.49. I don't know how to
> find out the version of Apache; if you need it, please let me know.

You need to upgrade php.
--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Pedro Fortuny

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
Pedro...:
> >But has Perl been told his behaviour is astoundingly
> >counter-politic? I cannot see anything of the sort in
> >his talk page either in WP or in Meta.
>
> >Pedro.
>
> Hi Pedro. Yes, he was told on irc. I hope my
> explanations were clear enough. If not, I suppose my
> level of conviction could not escape him :-(
>

OK, this is the info I did not know.

But I think in the future, those comments ought also
to be made at the user's talk page (which seems somewhat
more "formal", to me).

Pedro.

>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
Pedro Fortuny Ayuso: http://pfortuny.sdf-eu.org
Colegio Mayor Pe?afiel, Universidad de Valladolid
C/ Estudios 6, 47005 Valladolid, Spain -->        www.cmpenafiel.org
pfortuny at sdf-eu.org                         Tfn. Nr. 34  983  298277


subject: [Wikitech-l] Transparent math rendering

body:
There's a lovely little program 'dvipng' which was designed to do
real-time previews of LaTeX in an editor
(http://sf.net/projects/preview-latex/) but is available as a
stand-alone utility as well. This can replace the dvips & convert steps
of our math rendering. In theory it should be faster (I haven't
benchmarked it), but the neat thing is that it can produce output with
a transparent background, which has been asked for for a while.

I've been able to get pretty nice output with this command line:
dvipng -q -D 120 -bg Transparent -T tight -o outputfile.png
inputfile.dvi

which produces files about the same dimensions as our current stuff.
They are 8-bit indexed PNG images with solid transparency, which is
compatible with Internet Explorer for Windows without any hacks, and
will still look nice on most light-colored backgrounds. However, they
won't look too great on a dark background, and some browsers may not be
able to print them correctly. There's also a truecolor option that I
haven't tried (which has potential problems of its own).

Attached is a diff to render.ml which uses dvipng instead of
dvips+convert. It would probably be fairly straightforward to make it a
conditional option, but I don't know ocaml. ;)

dvipng requires libgd to be available.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Use of noncommercial-only images

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>I officially pronounce that as of June 30, 2004, content which we are
>using _solely_ by virtue of non-free licenses should be removed from
>Wikipedia.
>
Thank you, most sincerely.

>This decree is only about non-free licenses _as a justification_ for
>images being on Wikipedia, and does not comment on, nor affect,
>evolving doctrine on "fair use".  Fair use is good *and bad* for
>entirely different reasons, and that's a whole set of issues that
>remains to be fully worked out.  For the time being, I think we should
>rely on fair use, because it's a good thing, but cautiously so.
>
We still need to get a system in place that requires people to provide
source information when uploading images. For the types of uses for
which US copyright law allows "fair use", the Berne Convention requires
that the source of the work be mentioned. We cannot justify fair use if
we aren't able to determine where the stuff comes from.

--Michael Snow
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
--- Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> fabiform wrote:
> > (Perl admitted he made a mistake and said it wouldn't happen again)
>
> The issue is not whether or not he apologises every time he makes a
> mistake. We know that he does apologise regularly. The issue is whether
> he will do it again, or something similar. Perl's judgement is not
> sufficient, he has to be watched all the time.
>
> -- Tim Starling

I just like fairness, his apology and more importantly his acknowledgement that
he made a mistake should be considered along with his other actions.  I don't
see either as often as I'd like on wikipedia.

I have no idea how he felt justified in banning someone who'd made only one
edit, we don't block the obvious vandals that fast on en (not that this was
even a case of vandalism).  I opposed him for sysopship on en, and I'm not
happy with him as a sysop on meta either (although the previous policy meant
that mav was perfectly correct to grant him that).

I'm not sure though (trying to look past my bias againt him) whether my reasons
for opposing granting Perl sysopships are sufficient to support de-sysoping
him.  Does that make sense?  Somehow there seems to be a gulf between the two
in my mind.  Given time I suppose Perl will prove us wrong, or make it
abundantly obvious that he cannot be trusted to be a sysop.

Fabi.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


body:
(...everything snapped).

I was one of the revertionists.... I did it probably too hastily, so
I apologize if that was a mistake, but the two versions were SO completely
different and the edit was anonymous, so ... I thought it was just a
rant by someone, not an honest edition. My fault as I did not check
the history, I gather. :(

Pedro.
--
Pedro Fortuny Ayuso: http://pfortuny.sdf-eu.org
Colegio Mayor Pe?afiel, Universidad de Valladolid
C/ Estudios 6, 47005 Valladolid, Spain -->        www.cmpenafiel.org
pfortuny at sdf-eu.org                         Tfn. Nr. 34  983  298277


body:
[center]
> which makes me think there's just no good way to emulate it completely
> with CSS2.

It is possible:

tag {
	margin-left: auto;
	margin-right: auto;
}

But older/css-uncapable browsers (IE) have problems with it and need
special treatment.

Regards
G?tz


body:
It might be helpful to know that if you come to my city, Cologne
(Germany), and ask anyone about Sion, you will be, without hesitation,
guided to a well-known local brewery of that name.

Then again, that might not be helpful at all. :-)

Magnus

Jimmy Wales wrote:

> I see that this page is the subject of quite a little edit war.  I
> know nothing about it one way or the other, and just wanted to bring
> it to the attention of a wider audience.
>
> --Jimbo
>
> ----- Forwarded message from arcadian127 <arcadian127 at yahoo.co.uk> -----
>
> From: arcadian127 <arcadian127 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:48:04 +0100 (BST)
> To: jwales at bomis.com
> Subject: Priory of Sion
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> Your definition for the entry "Priory of Sion" in
> Wikepedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion
>
> is a mish-mash of romantic twaddle.
>
> I keep trying to change the definition by creating a
> more realistic account but my version keeps getting
> deleted. Furthermore, the link to our website:
> http://www.priory-of-sion.com
> is part of the useless romantic definition
>
> I do not want that article to use a Link to our
> website because we do not want to be associated with
> that particular "definition" - it is pure nonsense.
>
> I have used a partly translated chapter from a book by
> Pierre Jarnac as the main part of my definition - no
> copyright has been violated because Jarnac and myself
> interchange each other's material - he uses my
> material freely in his books.
>
> I enclose the definition on the Priory of Sion that is
> a reasonable definition below this message - Is there
> any possibility that you can make this version stick
> without it being constantly deleted?
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Most Sincerely Yours,
> Paul Smith
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Pierre Jarnac, Les Archives de Rennes-le-Chateau
> pp.567-575 (1987)
>
>
> Historical Note on the Priory of Sion
>
> For the obviously capable reader who has an uncanny
> ability to transform a tiny French village of 70
> inhabitants into the secret society capital of France,
> then the name "Priory of Sion", itself, appears to be
> a mysterious and untouchable entity. After the name of
> this organisation appears on the scene, one Pierre
> Plantard swiftly follows and with him a whole secret
> society seemingly hidden away for centuries
> re-emerges.
>
> In reality, the name "Priory of Sion", given almost 40
> years ago by Pierre Plantard to an organisation
> without any financial goals, is hardly original. Not
> only is the name "de Sion" found close to where
> Plantard lived, hence the mountain in Haute-Savoie
> called, "Mont Sion" on the route to Annecy-Geneva,
> this name also goes back to a religious community at
> the time of the Crusades, whose demise came after
> several centuries on the outskirts of Orleans.
>
> In 1967, those for whom this confusion was to be most
> profitable, bestowed upon themselves the legacy of
> this ancient order, one that was far from their own. A
> book called the LIVRE DES CONSTITUTIONS DU PRIEURE DE
> SION, allegedly published in 1954 in Geneva and which
> to everyone's great chagrin has never been seen (it
> has been established by Pierre Jarnac that this book
> never existed), claimed a link with the original
> religious community called "Sion". The only trace of
> this Phantom Book is to be found in - guess where? -
> the Bibliotheque Nationale in one of those mysterious
> pamphlets that were deposited in the 1960s under the
> name "Dossiers Secrets".
>
> Where a historical connection does emerge is that a
> "Priory of Sion" was recorded as having existed. Only
> its real name was the "Abbey of Notre Dame of Mount
> Sion", or "of the Mount of Sion". Godefroi de
> Bouillon, in 1099, founded the Abbey of Notre-Dame of
> Mount Sion in Jerusalem; it was a religious community
> comprised of monks. Situated at Saint-Jean of Acre it
> subsisted until 1187, however, in 1291, with the
> Muslims reclaiming Acre from the Crusades, the monks,
> having lost their possessions in the Holy Land, fled.
> The last of the monks from this order went to Sicily
> on the invitation of Count Roger and his wife, the
> Princess Adelasie.
>
> In France other monks of this community, who were
> living close to Orleans, had previously been brought
> back by Louis VII in 1149 when he returned from the
> Crusades. They started a priory of Saint-Samson of
> Orleans. They were given a donation and confirmed by
> Pope Adrian in 1158. By 1281, this community was
> already in decline as there are records that show that
> only two members were in their choir, then in 1289
> there was only one member. At this point in time the
> abbey was on the verge of extinction, but then its
> other members from Sicily came over to find refuge
> after years of persecution. This last community, for
> whom Henri IV offered to build an abbey, died out in
> the early part of the 17th century for various reasons
> such as lack of recruitment, ageing monks, no money,
> etc.
>
> E.G. Rey, an archivist from Paris, living in Orleans
> during the 1880s became interested in the Abbey of
> Notre-Dame du Mont Sion. He found out that the
> archives of the Priory of Saint-Samson, repatriated
> from Sicily in the 14th century, were kept in the
> department of the Loiret, where they had been placed
> during the Revolution. Therein he discovered a Charter
> of the Acts for the Priory of Saint-Samson of Orleans.
> In particular, in the Act by Pope Alexander III there
> is confirmation that the Monks of Mount Sion are the
> owners of the Priory of Saint-Samson of Orleans. Rey
> was also able to compile a list of all the Abbots of
> Notre-Dame de Sion.
>
> The only outstanding traits of this religious
> community are that they had an illustrious founder,
> Godefroi de Bouillon, and a religiously inspired name.
> Otherwise they were an Order without much history and
> void of prestige. Because of their relative obscurity
> they were probably chosen by Plantard and Co as
> perfect fodder for their bogus historical claims.
>
>
> Note from Paul Smith:
>
> In 1989, following a period of retirement from 1984,
> Pierre Plantard revived his bogus Priory of Sion with
> a new Pedigree and Mythological History - the
> "Dossiers Secrets" version of the Priory of Sion was
> rejected as a fraud with it being written under the
> influence of LSD in 1967 by Philippe Toscan du
> Plantier - the latest 1989 version of the Priory of
> Sion had nothing to do with either the Crusades or the
> Templars but had rather been founded in 1681 in
> Rennes-le-Chateau.
>
> Pierre Plantard also concocted a new and different
> List of Grand Masters of the Priory of Sion that was
> to prove his downfall - he claimed that Roger Patrice
> Pelat had been a Grand Master. When the French
> Magistrate Thierry Jean-Pierre investigated the
> financial scandal involving Pelat he ordered the
> search of Plantard's house in 1993 that yielded a
> hoard of documents claiming that Plantard was the
> "true King of France" - detaining Plantard for a
> subsequent 48-hour interrogation Thierry Jean-Pierre
> forced a confession from Plantard that the claim was
> made up. Plantard was let-off with a warning - and he
> was never to revive his Priory of Sion activities
> again.
>
> Plantard lived in hiding between 1993 and his death in
> 2000. This was not the first time that Plantard was in
> trouble with the French Legal System - Plantard had
> served time in prison previously during the 1940s and
> 1950s.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
>
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] #mediawiki topic locked

body:
Kinda offtopic, but when somebody that's a channel op in #mediawiki
wakes up, could you please unlock the topic or at least update it to
mention the 1.2.4 release? Thanks.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: The Zellers Family

subject: [Wikipedia-l] A Fair Use Question

body:
I was writing a Wikipedia entry for Virgil Fox (the organist) and I wanted
to quote his introduction to the Bach Toccata and Fugue in Dm (BWV565) from
the album "Heavy Organ" because I thought that it nicely summed up his
approach to music (especially as constrasted with that if E. Power Biggs),
but I didn't want to run afoul of the copyright police, so I thought I'd
ask here first.

The quote is:

''There is current in our land (and several European countries) at this
moment a kind of nit-picking worship of historic im-po-tence.  They say,
they say, that Bach must not be interpreted and that he must have no
emotion, his notes speak for themselves.  You want know what that is?  Pure
unadulterated rot!  Bach has the red blood. He has the communion with the
people.  He has all of this amazing spirit and imagine that you could put
all the music on one side of the agenda with his great interpretation and
great feeling and put the greatest man of all right up on top of a dusty
shelf underneath some glass case in a museum and say that he must not be
interpreted!  They're full of you know what and they are so untalented that
they had to hide behind this thing 'cause they couldn't get in the House of
Music any other way!''

I would argue that it would fall under any reasonable definition of fair
use, but I'd like to get a second opinion before I cause any trouble.

Just for future reference, assuming quoting the text is permissible, where
would attaching an MP3 of that introduction fall?   I don't think it is
worth it in this case, but I was just wondering where the edges are.

Is there a standard way to footnote such entries?

Thanks,

Mark H. Zellers


from_name: Decumanus (Matthew Trump)

body:
I think things are settled. The user was objecting mostly to the
inclusion of a link to his own web site in the article. His edits
were probably well-meaning but quite a bit heavy-handed. He has since
been unblocked and is certainly welcome to make further
contributions. My other comments are the talk page of the article.

Matthew Trump

Jimmy Wales wrote:

> I see that this page is the subject of quite a little edit war.  I
> know nothing about it one way or the other, and just wanted to bring
> it to the attention of a wider audience.
> > --Jimbo
> > ----- Forwarded message from arcadian127 <arcadian127 at
yahoo.co.uk> -----
> > From: arcadian127 <arcadian127 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:48:04 +0100 (BST)
> To: jwales at bomis.com
> Subject: Priory of Sion
> > Dear Sir,
> > Your definition for the entry "Priory of Sion" in
> Wikepedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion
> > is a mish-mash of romantic twaddle.
> > I keep trying to change the definition by creating a
> more realistic account but my version keeps getting
> deleted. Furthermore, the link to our website:
> http://www.priory-of-sion.com
> is part of the useless romantic definition
> > I do not want that article to use a Link to our
> website because we do not want to be associated with
> that particular "definition" - it is pure nonsense.
> > I have used a partly translated chapter from a book by
> Pierre Jarnac as the main part of my definition - no
> copyright has been violated because Jarnac and myself
> interchange each other's material - he uses my
> material freely in his books.
> > I enclose the definition on the Priory of Sion that is
> a reasonable definition below this message - Is there
> any possibility that you can make this version stick
> without it being constantly deleted?
> > Thank you very much.
> > Most Sincerely Yours,
> Paul Smith
> > > > > > > Pierre Jarnac, Les Archives de Rennes-le-Chateau
> pp.567-575 (1987)
> > > Historical Note on the Priory of Sion
> > For the obviously capable reader who has an uncanny
> ability to transform a tiny French village of 70
> inhabitants into the secret society capital of France,
> then the name "Priory of Sion", itself, appears to be
> a mysterious and untouchable entity. After the name of
> this organisation appears on the scene, one Pierre
> Plantard swiftly follows and with him a whole secret
> society seemingly hidden away for centuries
> re-emerges.
> > In reality, the name "Priory of Sion", given almost 40
> years ago by Pierre Plantard to an organisation
> without any financial goals, is hardly original. Not
> only is the name "de Sion" found close to where
> Plantard lived, hence the mountain in Haute-Savoie
> called, "Mont Sion" on the route to Annecy-Geneva,
> this name also goes back to a religious community at
> the time of the Crusades, whose demise came after
> several centuries on the outskirts of Orleans.
> > In 1967, those for whom this confusion was to be most
> profitable, bestowed upon themselves the legacy of
> this ancient order, one that was far from their own. A
> book called the LIVRE DES CONSTITUTIONS DU PRIEURE DE
> SION, allegedly published in 1954 in Geneva and which
> to everyone's great chagrin has never been seen (it
> has been established by Pierre Jarnac that this book
> never existed), claimed a link with the original
> religious community called "Sion". The only trace of
> this Phantom Book is to be found in - guess where? -
> the Bibliotheque Nationale in one of those mysterious
> pamphlets that were deposited in the 1960s under the
> name "Dossiers Secrets".
> > Where a historical connection does emerge is that a
> "Priory of Sion" was recorded as having existed. Only
> its real name was the "Abbey of Notre Dame of Mount
> Sion", or "of the Mount of Sion". Godefroi de
> Bouillon, in 1099, founded the Abbey of Notre-Dame of
> Mount Sion in Jerusalem; it was a religious community
> comprised of monks. Situated at Saint-Jean of Acre it
> subsisted until 1187, however, in 1291, with the
> Muslims reclaiming Acre from the Crusades, the monks,
> having lost their possessions in the Holy Land, fled.
> The last of the monks from this order went to Sicily
> on the invitation of Count Roger and his wife, the
> Princess Adelasie.
> > In France other monks of this community, who were
> living close to Orleans, had previously been brought
> back by Louis VII in 1149 when he returned from the
> Crusades. They started a priory of Saint-Samson of
> Orleans. They were given a donation and confirmed by
> Pope Adrian in 1158. By 1281, this community was
> already in decline as there are records that show that
> only two members were in their choir, then in 1289
> there was only one member. At this point in time the
> abbey was on the verge of extinction, but then its
> other members from Sicily came over to find refuge
> after years of persecution. This last community, for
> whom Henri IV offered to build an abbey, died out in
> the early part of the 17th century for various reasons
> such as lack of recruitment, ageing monks, no money,
> etc.
> > E.G. Rey, an archivist from Paris, living in Orleans
> during the 1880s became interested in the Abbey of
> Notre-Dame du Mont Sion. He found out that the
> archives of the Priory of Saint-Samson, repatriated
> from Sicily in the 14th century, were kept in the
> department of the Loiret, where they had been placed
> during the Revolution. Therein he discovered a Charter
> of the Acts for the Priory of Saint-Samson of Orleans.
> In particular, in the Act by Pope Alexander III there
> is confirmation that the Monks of Mount Sion are the
> owners of the Priory of Saint-Samson of Orleans. Rey
> was also able to compile a list of all the Abbots of
> Notre-Dame de Sion.
> > The only outstanding traits of this religious
> community are that they had an illustrious founder,
> Godefroi de Bouillon, and a religiously inspired name.
> Otherwise they were an Order without much history and
> void of prestige. Because of their relative obscurity
> they were probably chosen by Plantard and Co as
> perfect fodder for their bogus historical claims.
> > > Note from Paul Smith:
> > In 1989, following a period of retirement from 1984,
> Pierre Plantard revived his bogus Priory of Sion with
> a new Pedigree and Mythological History - the
> "Dossiers Secrets" version of the Priory of Sion was
> rejected as a fraud with it being written under the
> influence of LSD in 1967 by Philippe Toscan du
> Plantier - the latest 1989 version of the Priory of
> Sion had nothing to do with either the Crusades or the
> Templars but had rather been founded in 1681 in
> Rennes-le-Chateau.
> > Pierre Plantard also concocted a new and different
> List of Grand Masters of the Priory of Sion that was
> to prove his downfall - he claimed that Roger Patrice
> Pelat had been a Grand Master. When the French
> Magistrate Thierry Jean-Pierre investigated the
> financial scandal involving Pelat he ordered the
> search of Plantard's house in 1993 that yielded a
> hoard of documents claiming that Plantard was the
> "true King of France" - detaining Plantard for a
> subsequent 48-hour interrogation Thierry Jean-Pierre
> forced a confession from Plantard that the claim was
> made up. Plantard was let-off with a warning - and he
> was never to revive his Priory of Sion activities
> again.
> > Plantard lived in hiding between 1993 and his death in
> 2000. This was not the first time that Plantard was in
> trouble with the French Legal System - Plantard had
> served time in prison previously during the 1940s and
> 1950s.
> > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
> > > ----- End forwarded message -----
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
Fedora Core 1 for AMD64 has been released, should I go with that on
the new db server, or SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 for AMD64?

The differences seem compelling in favor of Fedora Core:

1.  Fedora Core is free-beer, price of $0, whereas SUSE is $767.
2.  Fedora Core is GNU-free, whereas I'm not so sure about SUSE.

The possisble downside of Fedora Core for AMD64 is that it's more or
less "hot off the presses" as of March 5.  (Over a month ago, so I
guess if it was a disaster we would have heard by now?)

--Jimbo


body:
Michael Snow wrote:
> We still need to get a system in place that requires people to provide
> source information when uploading images. For the types of uses for
> which US copyright law allows "fair use", the Berne Convention requires
> that the source of the work be mentioned. We cannot justify fair use if
> we aren't able to determine where the stuff comes from.

While it would be nice to have a "system" that's all database-happy,
wouldn't it be nearly as effective, and immediately possible, to
simply update the text of the upload page to ask people to give as
much detail as they possibly can as to the source of the upload?  They
can be warned that if they don't do so, there is a strong risk of
deletion.

And we should, again with an appropriate lead-time to allow people to
try to fix existing problems without edit wars over deletion, just
start deleting stuff that doesn't have proper attribution.  (I'm not
asking people to start deleting stuff today, because a good-faith
effort to do the right thing all around will take a bit of time.)

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] A Fair Use Question

body:
The Zellers Family wrote:
> I was writing a Wikipedia entry for Virgil Fox (the organist) and I wanted
> to quote his introduction to the Bach Toccata and Fugue in Dm (BWV565) from
> the album "Heavy Organ" because I thought that it nicely summed up his
> approach to music (especially as constrasted with that if E. Power Biggs),
> but I didn't want to run afoul of the copyright police, so I thought I'd
> ask here first.

Assuming the article isn't just this quote (which I'm sure it isn't),
there is no problem with this at all.  This is a paradigm case of
simple and perfectly acceptable "fair use" that is going to be fair
use for just about any conceivable re-use of our material.

> I would argue that it would fall under any reasonable definition of fair
> use, but I'd like to get a second opinion before I cause any trouble.

Yes, it's fine.

> Just for future reference, assuming quoting the text is permissible,
> where would attaching an MP3 of that introduction fall?  I don't
> think it is worth it in this case, but I was just wondering where
> the edges are.

I think that questions like this are hard to answer a priori -- it
just depends on the full context of what we're doing in any given
case.  As you say, in this case, it doesn't seem particularly on-point
("worth it") to include it, but in other cases, I think that including
it would be valid.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
Nick Reinking wrote:
> Well, I don't know if we want to be spending our limited money on OS
> licenses ("support").  Perhaps we should just wait for Fedora Core to
> have a couple more releases to iron out the bugs?  No need to rush it.

Well, I'm buying a replacement for geoffrin today (or tomorrow), so I
have to make a decision right away.  It seems imperative for our
application to go with a 64 bit solution rather than RH9.

--Jimbo


from_name: Nick Reinking

subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 08:00:09AM -0700, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Fedora Core 1 for AMD64 has been released, should I go with that on
> the new db server, or SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 for AMD64?
>
> The differences seem compelling in favor of Fedora Core:
>
> 1.  Fedora Core is free-beer, price of $0, whereas SUSE is $767.
> 2.  Fedora Core is GNU-free, whereas I'm not so sure about SUSE.
>
> The possisble downside of Fedora Core for AMD64 is that it's more or
> less "hot off the presses" as of March 5.  (Over a month ago, so I
> guess if it was a disaster we would have heard by now?)

Well, I don't know if we want to be spending our limited money on OS
licenses ("support").  Perhaps we should just wait for Fedora Core to
have a couple more releases to iron out the bugs?  No need to rush it.

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 08:43:44AM -0700, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Nick Reinking wrote:
> > Well, I don't know if we want to be spending our limited money on OS
> > licenses ("support").  Perhaps we should just wait for Fedora Core to
> > have a couple more releases to iron out the bugs?  No need to rush it.
>
> Well, I'm buying a replacement for geoffrin today (or tomorrow), so I
> have to make a decision right away.  It seems imperative for our
> application to go with a 64 bit solution rather than RH9.

Ahh, I see.  In that case, why do we have to use the Enterprise Server
version of SuSE for x86-64, and not just the regular personal edition?

ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/x86_64/9.0/

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


subject: [Wikipedia-l] A Fair Use Question

body:
* The Zellers Family <mzellers at pacbell.net> [2004-04-16]:
> (...)
>
> I would argue that it would fall under any reasonable definition of fair
> use, but I'd like to get a second opinion before I cause any trouble.
>

For me, it sounds like quoting a passage of a book or quoting a part of a
scientific paper, which is quite reasonable. But IANAL.

> Just for future reference, assuming quoting the text is permissible, where
> would attaching an MP3 of that introduction fall?   I don't think it is
> worth it in this case, but I was just wondering where the edges are.
>

This I dunno.

As to footnoting the entries, I cannot say either.

Pedro.
--
Pedro Fortuny Ayuso: http://pfortuny.sdf-eu.org
Colegio Mayor Pe?afiel, Universidad de Valladolid
C/ Estudios 6, 47005 Valladolid, Spain -->        www.cmpenafiel.org
pfortuny at sdf-eu.org                         Tfn. Nr. 34  983  298277


subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
On Apr 16, 2004, at 09:58, Ivan Krstic wrote:
> I apologize if this has been discussed, but is there a compelling
> reason to use a rpm-based distribution in the first place? I swear by
> Debian, and for the high-performance needs that wikipedia has, even
> looking into Gentoo would not be a bad idea. I'd be more than willing
> to lend a hand with any aspect of either of these distributions that
> needs clarification.

The OS is basically a commodity, to the extent that it works and is
reliable. Our main services (apache, PHP, MySQL) are mostly installed
from source or distro-independent binary tarballs, so beyond basic
system configuration it shouldn't much make a difference. The other
machines have generally been Red Hat, and it's good to stay consistent
on the Apache farm. The database server is different though, so it can
be different.

Is there any compelling reason to use a non-rpm distribution, either?
What does the package format have to do with anything?

As far as SuSE (which has had amd64 releases in the market for a
while), SuSE Professional 9.0 for amd64 is a mere US$119.95, we don't
need the expensive support contract.

I've gotten the impression that Debian isn't really mature on amd64;
there's no stable release. Has anyone used it *on amd64*? Would you
recommend it for a production server?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
fabiform wrote:
> (Perl admitted he made a mistake and said it wouldn't happen again)

The issue is not whether or not he apologises every time he makes a
mistake. We know that he does apologise regularly. The issue is whether
he will do it again, or something similar. Perl's judgement is not
sufficient, he has to be watched all the time.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Peter Gervai

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 11:15:14AM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> fabiform wrote:
> >(Perl admitted he made a mistake and said it wouldn't happen again)
>
> The issue is not whether or not he apologises every time he makes a
> mistake. We know that he does apologise regularly. The issue is whether
> he will do it again, or something similar. Perl's judgement is not
> sufficient, he has to be watched all the time.

If someone does not feel the responsibility of the power given then he
should not have the power itself.

I am a sysop. I never have banned anyone without asking at least 3 times
before, and since there wasn't any case that I needed 3 warnings, I never
have banned anyone so far.

I expect any people with power (sysops, devels, whoever) to act responsibly,
*think three times* before acting. The WikiWiki concept is to let people to do
what they wish as long as it is completely sure that their intentions are
bad, and going to stay that way. I expect sysops honouring that, and I
expect that sysops who doesn't losing their power.

Irresponsible but helpful people doesn't need sysop power to submit articles
and changes. Neutral people doesn't need it either, there is life without
power. Sysopship should be *restricted to* careful, responsible people.
Preferably proven careful, responsible people. It is a tough goal but should be
tried anyway...

I don't know perl and I am not involved. Reading all the mails here he
should be desysopped, and stay that way, because he is helpful but neither
careful nor responsible. This is valid for anyone using his/her/its power
irresponsibly or without maximal possible care.

My 0.013 euros.

Peter
[[user:grin]]

ps: He created power, thus He created war.


from_name: Ivan Krstic

subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
Jimbo,

I apologize if this has been discussed, but is there a compelling reason
to use a rpm-based distribution in the first place? I swear by Debian,
and for the high-performance needs that wikipedia has, even looking into
Gentoo would not be a bad idea. I'd be more than willing to lend a hand
with any aspect of either of these distributions that needs clarification.

Cheers,
Ivan

Jimmy Wales wrote:

> Nick Reinking wrote:
>
>>Well, I don't know if we want to be spending our limited money on OS
>>licenses ("support").  Perhaps we should just wait for Fedora Core to
>>have a couple more releases to iron out the bugs?  No need to rush it.
>
>
> Well, I'm buying a replacement for geoffrin today (or tomorrow), so I
> have to make a decision right away.  It seems imperative for our
> application to go with a 64 bit solution rather than RH9.
>
> --Jimbo


from_name: Brian Corr

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
On Fri Apr 16 09:41:21 UTC 2004 Peter Gervai  wrote
>On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 11:15:14AM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> > fabiform wrote:
> > >(Perl admitted he made a mistake and said it wouldn't happen again)
> >
> > The issue is not whether or not he apologises every time he makes a
> > mistake. We know that he does apologise regularly. The issue is whether
> > he will do it again, or something similar. Perl's judgement is not
> > sufficient, he has to be watched all the time.
>
>If someone does not feel the responsibility of the power given then he
>should not have the power itself.

I completely agree. Being a sysop is not a right, but a responsibility. It
also is not a tenured position, and while desysopping should not be done
lightly, there has already been a lot of thoughtful discussion about this
-- far more than is currently required to make someone a sysop (although I
realize a new policy is under consideration).

>Irresponsible but helpful people doesn't need sysop power to submit articles
>and changes. Neutral people doesn't need it either, there is life without
>power. Sysopship should be *restricted to* careful, responsible people.
>Preferably proven careful, responsible people. It is a tough goal but
>should be
>tried anyway...
>
>I don't know perl and I am not involved. Reading all the mails here he
>should be desysopped, and stay that way, because he is helpful but neither
>careful nor responsible. This is valid for anyone using his/her/its power
>irresponsibly or without maximal possible care.

Peter is correct here as well. Perl doesn't need to be a sysop to do good
work and be helpful in fighting vandalism. And I will note that I opposed
Perl/Alex becoming an admin on en: repeatedly because he had shown what I
considered poor judgment, duplicity (as well as outright deception) and
being unwilling to be more careful and moderate his behavior (despite a
willingness to apologize repeatedly). I also opposed his self-nomination on
the French Wikipedia (where I am an occasional, but serious, editor)
because of his history on en: and his stated reason for wanting adminship:
"Je voudrais devine admin pour termin? (assasin?) les vandals comme
papotages et micheal."
<http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikip%C3%A9dia:Administrateur&oldid=287542#Aplank>.

I appreciate that we want to weigh carefully the decision to remove
someone's adminship, but it's clear to me that he received it by a
carefully planned course of action -- perhaps even "scheming" is not too
strong a word here -- and that he has not acted responsibly. While he may
end one specific problematic behavior, he often seems to find one that he
hasn't been specifically warned about. To me, he obeys the letter of the
law, but no its spirit.

So I urge that he is desysopped, that the current policy proposal is
reviewed by people and adopted, and that Perl can reapply if he wishes, and
that the community can make a decision.

Thanks,
Brian (Bcorr)


list: textbook-l

from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] software updates

body:
Wikibooks is behind the main Wikipedia on software updates
right? There are various "small" things that are different
in how they function or how pages are presented. Is it a
ton of work to get the software for Wikibooks updated to
the level of Wikipedia? Who does this?

Thanks,
Karl

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Textbook-l] software updates

body:
On Apr 16, 2004, at 13:58, Karl Wick wrote:
> Wikibooks is behind the main Wikipedia on software updates
> right? There are various "small" things that are different
> in how they function or how pages are presented. Is it a
> ton of work to get the software for Wikibooks updated to
> the level of Wikipedia? Who does this?

There is a single master copy of the software that all the wikis we run
use. However, some may be configured a little differently, and the user
interface messages have separate copies for customization.

Can you point out what's out of order specifically?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
On Apr 16, 2004, at 13:02, Ivan Krstic wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> Is there any compelling reason to use a non-rpm distribution, either?
>> What does the package format have to do with anything?
>
> You're right; it doesn't. However, APT (the Debian packet manager) is
> addictive - in practice, it reduces administration overhead more than
> most admins can imagine.

Well, APT is available in Fedora too as well as YUM, which seems to be
the default. (APT and YUM are a level of abstraction above Red Hat's
RPM and Debian's DPKG, which will just complain at you if you haven't
fetched all dependencies.) apt-get *is* great, though. I use it on my
Mac -- also not running Debian -- to install packages from Fink.

> Debian is not mature on AMD64. But as I mentioned - we're trying to
> squeeze out every last bit of performance on this box anyway. Gentoo,
> even if the bootstrapping takes a while, is designed precisely for our
> situation, and AFAIK is stable on amd64.

Performance is nice, but the machine needs to *work* too. Geoffrin was
a speedy devil, but she crashed all the time, hence the long hassles
with repairs ending in (hopefully) a refund from Penguin. We can only
hope than Geoffrin II will be easier to get along with...

I've got a Gentoo box at home (32-bit Athlon). It seems to work well
enough, but feels more bleeding edge. I'm not convinced of magical
performance improvements, either; it's going to be running basically
one major service, MySQL, from either an optimized official MySQL
binary or an optimized local build regardless of which distro is used.

Anyone used Gentoo/AMD64 (or Gentoo generally) in a production
environment?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: David Friedland

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: A Fair Use Question

body:
As a very similar example, a while ago I added a 22-second clip of a
song to [[House music]], which not only serves as an (imho excellent)
example of house music, but also to demonstrate the quotation that had
been previously added to the page about house music.

"Not everyone understands House music; it's a spiritual thing; a body
thing; a soul thing."

Now, while I'd be the first to admit the lyics in house music are at the
very bottom of the spectrum of "high quality" or "deep" lyrics (it's
dance music; it's not supposed to make you think), I think the quotation
is apt.

But besides that, I think the sample is an example that approaches the
borderline but doesn't cross over into not being fair use.

- David

Jimmy Wales wrote:

> The Zellers Family wrote:
>
>>I was writing a Wikipedia entry for Virgil Fox (the organist) and I wanted
>>to quote his introduction to the Bach Toccata and Fugue in Dm (BWV565) from
>>the album "Heavy Organ" because I thought that it nicely summed up his
>>approach to music (especially as constrasted with that if E. Power Biggs),
>>but I didn't want to run afoul of the copyright police, so I thought I'd
>>ask here first.
>
>
> Assuming the article isn't just this quote (which I'm sure it isn't),
> there is no problem with this at all.  This is a paradigm case of
> simple and perfectly acceptable "fair use" that is going to be fair
> use for just about any conceivable re-use of our material.
>
>
>>I would argue that it would fall under any reasonable definition of fair
>>use, but I'd like to get a second opinion before I cause any trouble.
>
>
> Yes, it's fine.
>
>
>>Just for future reference, assuming quoting the text is permissible,
>>where would attaching an MP3 of that introduction fall?  I don't
>>think it is worth it in this case, but I was just wondering where
>>the edges are.
>
>
> I think that questions like this are hard to answer a priori -- it
> just depends on the full context of what we're doing in any given
> case.  As you say, in this case, it doesn't seem particularly on-point
> ("worth it") to include it, but in other cases, I think that including
> it would be valid.
>
> --Jimbo


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/includes Parser.php,
	1.86, 1.87

body:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:22:42 +0200, G?tz Hoffart wrote:

Thanks for the tip, this seems to work fine across the browsers i tested
(IE6.0,5.5,Moz):
/* emulate center */
.center {
    width: 100%;
    text-align: center;
}
div.center * {
    margin-left: auto;
    margin-right: auto;
}

You can test it at http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/TestWikipedia:Sandbox.
--
Gabriel Wicke


subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
I personally think that Debian would make an excellent choice -
everything that Ivan has said about it is true.  It is very easy to
manage.  That said, I don't think it would be a good idea to move to
the AMD64 version of it yet, especially if they don't consider it to be
production-quality.  Perhaps we could do just a regular x86 install of
it, with bigmem?  I know it's not ideal, but it's much better tested.

On Apr 16, 2004, at 3:02 PM, Ivan Krstic wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> Is there any compelling reason to use a non-rpm distribution, either?
>> What does the package format have to do with anything?
>
> You're right; it doesn't. However, APT (the Debian packet manager) is
> addictive - in practice, it reduces administration overhead more than
> most admins can imagine. Want to stay up to date with the bleeding
> edge? It's one command. Prefer rock-solid instead (Debian is known for
> being extremely conservative about their stable releases) - one
> command. Install any/all security updates automatically? Also one
> command. I've been dabbling with Linux since one of the earlier 1.1
> releases in 1994 (not very seriously back then, however) and have
> probably tried every distribution under the sun. Debian is my
> hands-down, leaves-everything-else-in-the-dust favorite for servers.
>
>> I've gotten the impression that Debian isn't really mature on amd64;
>> there's no stable release. Has anyone used it *on amd64*? Would you
>> recommend it for a production server?
>
> Debian is not mature on AMD64. But as I mentioned - we're trying to
> squeeze out every last bit of performance on this box anyway. Gentoo,
> even if the bootstrapping takes a while, is designed precisely for our
> situation, and AFAIK is stable on amd64.
>
> Again, please do not hesitate to let me know if I can be of help with
> any of this.
>
> Cheers,
> Ivan
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Is there any compelling reason to use a non-rpm distribution, either?
> What does the package format have to do with anything?

You're right; it doesn't. However, APT (the Debian packet manager) is
addictive - in practice, it reduces administration overhead more than
most admins can imagine. Want to stay up to date with the bleeding edge?
It's one command. Prefer rock-solid instead (Debian is known for being
extremely conservative about their stable releases) - one command.
Install any/all security updates automatically? Also one command. I've
been dabbling with Linux since one of the earlier 1.1 releases in 1994
(not very seriously back then, however) and have probably tried every
distribution under the sun. Debian is my hands-down,
leaves-everything-else-in-the-dust favorite for servers.

> I've gotten the impression that Debian isn't really mature on amd64;
> there's no stable release. Has anyone used it *on amd64*? Would you
> recommend it for a production server?

Debian is not mature on AMD64. But as I mentioned - we're trying to
squeeze out every last bit of performance on this box anyway. Gentoo,
even if the bootstrapping takes a while, is designed precisely for our
situation, and AFAIK is stable on amd64.

Again, please do not hesitate to let me know if I can be of help with
any of this.

Cheers,
Ivan


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Stefan Jensen

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Environmental thesauri in Wiktionary type
	applications

body:
Dear All,
my name is Stefan Jensen, I work for the European Environment Agency in Copenhagen DK, responsible among other things for the GEneral Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus. More on GEMET from http://eionet.eu.int/GEMET .
I came across Wiki type approaches recently and I am getting exited about the "open content" possibility this offers to maintain and share environmental terminologies.
Just now I am sitting in a meeting where many providers of environmental terminologies as well as technical solutions providers gather under a UNEP umbrella. (see also the thesaurus workshop under http://ecoinfo.eionet.eu.int ). I presented the Wiki-way to the group and there was interest and criticism alike.
I promised to explore the feasibility of such a thing...

Rough scetch of a process to pilot this would be:
- use Wiki open source software - preferable ZOPE based - to "publish" our material (5200 terms in 22 languages with 5 languages carrying alsodefinitions for the terms)
> How easy is it to get such stuff (available in XML/RDF) into it?
- after establishing this core, let people contribute terms, languages, definitions, concepts ...
> While we could test this, we would probably introduce some moderation to avoid chaos (but hopefully this is not even necessary). Any ideas on that one?

Well, this is a bit of the story for a start - Anybody out there with some ideas / suggestions e.g.

grateful

stefan


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
Cimon Avaro wrote:

>On Fri, 2004-04-16 at 20:10, Brian Corr wrote:
>
>>On Fri Apr 16 09:41:21 UTC 2004 Peter Gervai  wrote
>>
>>>On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 11:15:14AM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
>>>
>>>>fabiform wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>(Perl admitted he made a mistake and said it wouldn't happen again)
>>>>>
>>>>The issue is not whether or not he apologises every time he makes a
>>>>mistake. We know that he does apologise regularly. The issue is whether
>>>>he will do it again, or something similar. Perl's judgement is not
>>>>sufficient, he has to be watched all the time.
>>>>
>This situation occurs on most "small" pedias quite regularly. It is a
>_good_ thing that there is an _english-language_ "pedia" to experience
>this phenomenon as well...
>
On a small pedia the strange behaviours are much more noticeable.  ...
Though perhaps not on Maori where there is nobody there to notice anything.

>>>If someone does not feel the responsibility of the power given then he
>>>should not have the power itself.
>>>
>>I completely agree. Being a sysop is not a right, but a responsibility. It
>>also is not a tenured position, and while desysopping should not be done
>>lightly, there has already been a lot of thoughtful discussion about this
>>-- far more than is currently required to make someone a sysop (although I
>>realize a new policy is under consideration).
>>
>Wake-up call. Thoughtful discussion != due process. Thoughtful
>discussion will often focus on the instance, and not the precedent or
>long-term procedure it may engender. We must not fall into teh trap of
>writing policy based on one anomalous instance...
>
Certainly.  No new policy should be applied retroactively either.
 Writing policy to cope with anomalous instances will result in policies
that will be ignored, or that are so burdensome that they will hurt more
good users than bad ones.  Some bad users cause less harm than the
policies intended to cope with them.

>>>Irresponsible but helpful people doesn't need sysop power to submit articles
>>>and changes. Neutral people doesn't need it either, there is life without
>>>power. Sysopship should be *restricted to* careful, responsible people.
>>>Preferably proven careful, responsible people. It is a tough goal but
>>>should be tried anyway...
>>>
>>>I don't know perl and I am not involved. Reading all the mails here he
>>>should be desysopped, and stay that way, because he is helpful but neither
>>>careful nor responsible. This is valid for anyone using his/her/its power
>>>irresponsibly or without maximal possible care.
>>>
>>Peter is correct here as well. Perl doesn't need to be a sysop to do good
>>work and be helpful in fighting vandalism. And I will note that I opposed
>>Perl/Alex becoming an admin on en: repeatedly because he had shown what I
>>considered poor judgment, duplicity (as well as outright deception) and
>>being unwilling to be more careful and moderate his behavior (despite a
>>willingness to apologize repeatedly). I also opposed his self-nomination on
>>the French Wikipedia (where I am an occasional, but serious, editor)
>>because of his history on en: and his stated reason for wanting adminship:
>>"Je voudrais devine admin pour termin(assasin les vandals comme
>>papotages et micheal."
>>
Wanting to be a sysop to deal with vandals would prompt my suspicions --
even more so when he names supposed vandals.

>>I appreciate that we want to weigh carefully the decision to remove
>>someone's adminship, but it's clear to me that he received it by a
>>carefully planned course of action -- perhaps even "scheming" is not too
>>strong a word here -- and that he has not acted responsibly. While he may
>>end one specific problematic behavior, he often seems to find one that he
>>hasn't been specifically warned about. To me, he obeys the letter of the
>>law, but no its spirit.
>>
>It is clear to most people, but unfortunately that does not carry weight
>in subsequent considerations, except as supporting evidence. If he is to
>be de-sysopped, it must be done due to actions as sysop, not in gaining
>the status. I am sorry, but I would defend my worst enemy to this
>degree. Anything else would be most detrimental to the wikipedia spirit.
>
I agree with this.  It's a question of living with our own mistakes.
 That being said, those of us with bureaucratic priveleges on other
projects can still be forewarned about the potential problems if he
should seek the status there.

>>So I urge that he is desysopped, that the current policy proposal is
>>reviewed by people and adopted, and that Perl can reapply if he wishes, and
>>that the community can make a decision.
>>
>I am very disturbed that you would request something so clearly
>instance-guided, rather than useful for setting a standard for future
>disputes. Sorry, but that is how I Honestly Feel.
>
What we really need is more objective criteria that depend less on
voting.  Strong personal objections about an individual would be
considered, but only as a part of a bigger context.  Length of time,
number of overall edits, participation in housekeeping, willingness to
discuss issues are all factors that could be quantified, and thus become
major considerations before a request to be a sysop is considered.
 Since each project has a different culture, each would also be able to
set the numbers involved in these criteria to suit its own needs.  Most
people don't mind striving for a clearly identified goal.  Doing so
gives them the opportunity to exercise patience, which can be another
important virtue for a sysop.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: OS choice?

body:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:59:43 -0500, Nick Reinking wrote:

> Ahh, I see.  In that case, why do we have to use the Enterprise Server
> version of SuSE for x86-64, and not just the regular personal edition?
>
> ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/x86_64/9.0/

The kernel and possibly libc are the important bits, support isn't
really what we need. Those should be the same in both suse versions. On
the Debian 64bit list some people report to be using the suse kernel with
the Debian libs to get the biarch capabilities. Dependencies don't seem to
be a major problem.
--
Gabriel Wicke


body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Michael Snow wrote:
>> We still need to get a system in place that requires people to provide
>> source information when uploading images. For the types of uses for
>> which US copyright law allows "fair use", the Berne Convention requires
>> that the source of the work be mentioned. We cannot justify fair use if
>> we aren't able to determine where the stuff comes from.
>
>While it would be nice to have a "system" that's all database-happy,
>wouldn't it be nearly as effective, and immediately possible, to
>simply update the text of the upload page to ask people to give as
>much detail as they possibly can as to the source of the upload?  They
>can be warned that if they don't do so, there is a strong risk of
>deletion.
>
It is immediately possible, but I question its effectiveness. For about
the past two months, the upload text has included, "If you are uploading
an image under the doctrine of fair use, please place the text
'{{msg:fairuse}}' in the image description and give the source of the
image." Adding a warning about the risk of deletion for not citing the
source would be nice too, but somebody else needs to do it because I can't.

Nevertheless, my impression from scanning recent uploads is that many
images, including those claiming fair use, do not provide source
information. This is almost certainly because the upload page has two
fields (plus the checkbox for affirming the license). Those fields are
called "Filename:" and "Summary:". And the content provided with most
uploads is, not surprisingly, a simple summary of what the upload is.
Sometimes the source is mentioned, but often not.

Many people who upload stuff probably do so regularly, and are unlikely
to read the upload instructions carefully every time, or notice if they
change. They *will* notice if we add fields where they are expected to
input information.

We need to add a field specifically called "Source:". I realize that may
not happen immediately, but it needs to be done. It would be nice if
this field also did not allow null content, although I realize that's
not very effective against the joker who says his source is
"df39rhjufuasl2".

>And we should, again with an appropriate lead-time to allow people to
>try to fix existing problems without edit wars over deletion, just
>start deleting stuff that doesn't have proper attribution.  (I'm not
>asking people to start deleting stuff today, because a good-faith
>effort to do the right thing all around will take a bit of time.)
>
I would expect that even stuff without proper attribution should go
through a deletion procedure with community involvement, in case
somebody can provide the information needed. And any large-scale effort
to clean out non-compliant images should wait until people are more
aware of the need to provide attribution.

But I reiterate that the way to let everyone know what's expected, so
that we have people trying to do the right thing, is to have a separate
field that requires source information.

--Michael Snow

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from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
Hi,

I just bought a new Opteron box.
I am installing and testing different OS on it.
Available 64bits OS are SuSE, Fedora, Mandrake and Gentoo.

The best result I have so far are with Gentoo.
It takes some hours to install it, but it is worth the time (5-6 for a
complete distribution - base + KDE + Mozilla + Gimp - for me on a mono
processor). For a bi-pro server with just Apache, PHP and MySQL, it would
take much less.

I use mainly Debian on my other machines.
But now Debian is in the alpha stage of AMD64.

Just my 2 bits.
Yann

Le Friday 16 April 2004 20:09, Brion Vibber a ?crit :
> The OS is basically a commodity, to the extent that it works and is
> reliable. Our main services (apache, PHP, MySQL) are mostly installed
> from source or distro-independent binary tarballs, so beyond basic
> system configuration it shouldn't much make a difference. The other
> machines have generally been Red Hat, and it's good to stay consistent
> on the Apache farm. The database server is different though, so it can
> be different.
>
> Is there any compelling reason to use a non-rpm distribution, either?
> What does the package format have to do with anything?
>
> As far as SuSE (which has had amd64 releases in the market for a
> while), SuSE Professional 9.0 for amd64 is a mere US$119.95, we don't
> need the expensive support contract.
>
> I've gotten the impression that Debian isn't really mature on amd64;
> there's no stable release. Has anyone used it *on amd64*? Would you
> recommend it for a production server?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

--
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http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
* Brian Corr <BCorr at NEAction.org> [2004-04-16]:
... (long snip).
>
>
> I appreciate that we want to weigh carefully the decision to remove
> someone's adminship, but it's clear to me that he received it by a
> carefully planned course of action -- perhaps even "scheming" is not too
> strong a word here -- and that he has not acted responsibly.

Notice that this is a very strong personal attack, even though you may
have thought carefully about it (of what I am sure). Especially because it
judges intentions (basically he wanted consciouly to deceive). This is
what I DO NOT see as a proper reason for desysoping. However:

> While he may
> end one specific problematic behavior, he often seems to find one that he
> hasn't been specifically warned about. To me, he obeys the letter of the
> law, but no its spirit.
>

Now this is a good reason, no intentions, no hidden motives. I agree that
*if this is  the case*, de-sysoping him ought to be taken as a serious
possibility. But I fear there are no adverts at his talk pages but since
today or yesterday and I fear taking action against someone without using
the proper channels will end up in a nasty and awful precedent. This is
for me the main reason to ask

a) That Perl not be de-sysoped for now
b) That if someone feels a sysop is misbehaving, (s)he be told AT HIS/HER
talk page.

> So I urge that he is desysopped, that the current policy proposal is
> reviewed by people and adopted, and that Perl can reapply if he wishes, and
> that the community can make a decision.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian (Bcorr)

Pedro.

--
Pedro Fortuny Ayuso: http://pfortuny.sdf-eu.org
Colegio Mayor Pe?afiel, Universidad de Valladolid
C/ Estudios 6, 47005 Valladolid, Spain -->        www.cmpenafiel.org
pfortuny at sdf-eu.org                         Tfn. Nr. 34  983  298277


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
My apologies! I forgot to state that

a) Perl has not talked here and I think he *ought to* (this means I am
asking him to do so, and I know he knows of this thread, as I told him and
he answered back).

b) I forgot. sorry.

Pedro.

 --
Pedro Fortuny Ayuso: http://pfortuny.sdf-eu.org
Colegio Mayor Pe?afiel, Universidad de Valladolid
C/ Estudios 6, 47005 Valladolid, Spain -->        www.cmpenafiel.org
pfortuny at sdf-eu.org                         Tfn. Nr. 34  983  298277


from_name: Cimon Avaro

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

body:
On Fri, 2004-04-16 at 20:10, Brian Corr wrote:
> On Fri Apr 16 09:41:21 UTC 2004 Peter Gervai  wrote
> >On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 11:15:14AM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> > > fabiform wrote:
> > > >(Perl admitted he made a mistake and said it wouldn't happen again)
> > >
> > > The issue is not whether or not he apologises every time he makes a
> > > mistake. We know that he does apologise regularly. The issue is whether
> > > he will do it again, or something similar. Perl's judgement is not
> > > sufficient, he has to be watched all the time.

This situation occurs on most "small" pedias quite regularly. It is a
_good_ thing that there is an _english-language_ "pedia" to experience
this phenomenon as well...

> >
> >If someone does not feel the responsibility of the power given then he
> >should not have the power itself.
>
> I completely agree. Being a sysop is not a right, but a responsibility. It
> also is not a tenured position, and while desysopping should not be done
> lightly, there has already been a lot of thoughtful discussion about this
> -- far more than is currently required to make someone a sysop (although I
> realize a new policy is under consideration).

Wake-up call. Thoughtful discussion != due process. Thoughtful
discussion will often focus on the instance, and not the precedent or
long-term procedure it may engender. We must not fall into teh trap of
writing policy based on one anomalous instance...

>
> >Irresponsible but helpful people doesn't need sysop power to submit articles
> >and changes. Neutral people doesn't need it either, there is life without
> >power. Sysopship should be *restricted to* careful, responsible people.
> >Preferably proven careful, responsible people. It is a tough goal but
> >should be
> >tried anyway...
> >
> >I don't know perl and I am not involved. Reading all the mails here he
> >should be desysopped, and stay that way, because he is helpful but neither
> >careful nor responsible. This is valid for anyone using his/her/its power
> >irresponsibly or without maximal possible care.
>
> Peter is correct here as well. Perl doesn't need to be a sysop to do good
> work and be helpful in fighting vandalism. And I will note that I opposed
> Perl/Alex becoming an admin on en: repeatedly because he had shown what I
> considered poor judgment, duplicity (as well as outright deception) and
> being unwilling to be more careful and moderate his behavior (despite a
> willingness to apologize repeatedly). I also opposed his self-nomination on
> the French Wikipedia (where I am an occasional, but serious, editor)
> because of his history on en: and his stated reason for wanting adminship:
> "Je voudrais devine admin pour termin? (assasin?) les vandals comme
> papotages et micheal."
> <http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikip%C3%A9dia:Administrateur&oldid=287542#Aplank>.
>
> I appreciate that we want to weigh carefully the decision to remove
> someone's adminship, but it's clear to me that he received it by a
> carefully planned course of action -- perhaps even "scheming" is not too
> strong a word here -- and that he has not acted responsibly. While he may
> end one specific problematic behavior, he often seems to find one that he
> hasn't been specifically warned about. To me, he obeys the letter of the
> law, but no its spirit.

It is clear to most people, but unfortunately that does not carry weight
in subsequent considerations, except as supporting evidence. If he is to
be de-sysopped, it must be done due to actions as sysop, not in gaining
the status. I am sorry, but I would defend my worst enemy to this
degree. Anything else would be most detrimental to the wikipedia spirit.

>
> So I urge that he is desysopped, that the current policy proposal is
> reviewed by people and adopted, and that Perl can reapply if he wishes, and
> that the community can make a decision.

I am very disturbed that you would request something so clearly
instance-guided, rather than useful for setting a standard for future
disputes. Sorry, but that is how I Honestly Feel.

>
> Thanks,
> Brian (Bcorr)

Sorry. Jussi-Ville Heiskanen


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: OS choice?

body:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:06:30 -0500, Nick Reinking wrote:

> I personally think that Debian would make an excellent choice -
> everything that Ivan has said about it is true.  It is very easy to
> manage.  That said, I don't think it would be a good idea to move to
> the AMD64 version of it yet, especially if they don't consider it to be
> production-quality.  Perhaps we could do just a regular x86 install of
> it, with bigmem?  I know it's not ideal, but it's much better tested.

No. MySQL needs 64bit, crashes >2Gb otherwise. Im a debian fan as well,
but in this case gentoo or suse seem to make more sense.
--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Marcos Cramer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] LanguageSw.php

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body:
What about a radio button set in the form that forces uses to choose
a particular license when uploaded?

Michael Snow said:
> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>>Michael Snow wrote:
>>> We still need to get a system in place that requires people to
>>> provide
>>> source information when uploading images. For the types of uses
>>> for
>>> which US copyright law allows "fair use", the Berne Convention
>>> requires
>>> that the source of the work be mentioned. We cannot justify fair
>>> use if
>>> we aren't able to determine where the stuff comes from.
>>
>>While it would be nice to have a "system" that's all database-happy,
>>wouldn't it be nearly as effective, and immediately possible, to
>>simply update the text of the upload page to ask people to give as
>>much detail as they possibly can as to the source of the upload?
>> They
>>can be warned that if they don't do so, there is a strong risk of
>>deletion.
>>
> It is immediately possible, but I question its effectiveness. For
> about
> the past two months, the upload text has included, "If you are
> uploading
> an image under the doctrine of fair use, please place the text
> '{{msg:fairuse}}' in the image description and give the source of the
> image." Adding a warning about the risk of deletion for not citing
> the
> source would be nice too, but somebody else needs to do it because I
> can't.
>
> Nevertheless, my impression from scanning recent uploads is that many
> images, including those claiming fair use, do not provide source
> information. This is almost certainly because the upload page has two
> fields (plus the checkbox for affirming the license). Those fields
> are
> called "Filename:" and "Summary:". And the content provided with most
> uploads is, not surprisingly, a simple summary of what the upload is.
> Sometimes the source is mentioned, but often not.
>
> Many people who upload stuff probably do so regularly, and are
> unlikely
> to read the upload instructions carefully every time, or notice if
> they
> change. They *will* notice if we add fields where they are expected
> to
> input information.
>
> We need to add a field specifically called "Source:". I realize that
> may
> not happen immediately, but it needs to be done. It would be nice if
> this field also did not allow null content, although I realize that's
> not very effective against the joker who says his source is
> "df39rhjufuasl2".
>
>>And we should, again with an appropriate lead-time to allow people
>> to
>>try to fix existing problems without edit wars over deletion, just
>>start deleting stuff that doesn't have proper attribution.  (I'm not
>>asking people to start deleting stuff today, because a good-faith
>>effort to do the right thing all around will take a bit of time.)
>>
> I would expect that even stuff without proper attribution should go
> through a deletion procedure with community involvement, in case
> somebody can provide the information needed. And any large-scale
> effort
> to clean out non-compliant images should wait until people are more
> aware of the need to provide attribution.
>
> But I reiterate that the way to let everyone know what's expected, so
> that we have people trying to do the right thing, is to have a
> separate
> field that requires source information.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Götz Hoffart

subject: [Wikitech-l] OS choice?

body:
> Anyone used Gentoo/AMD64 (or Gentoo generally) in a production
> environment?

Not here, only using Debian boxes for this (on lots of IA32 and some
HPPA boxes). Gentoo's update system broke here resulting in an unusable
system (on PPC).

I hope this is not ending as a Distri advocacy war ...

Regards
G?tz