from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: PNG format???

in_reply_to: <bfr6jv$7kl$1@main.gmane.org>; from timwi@gmx.net on Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 02:08:59PM +0200

body:
Timwi wrote:
> GIF is (currently) patent-contaminated and therefore cannot be used
> with GFDL),

Under my understanding, this is not completely correct.  The patent
situation pertains to software to create the images, not the images
themselves.  If someone uses properly licensed software to create the
gif images, then there are no license compatibility issues involved
with redistribution.

Having said that, I generally agree with the FSF policy -- "But we
feel that if we can't distribute the software to enable people to
generate GIF files properly, then we should not have other people run
such software for us."

So I think we should disfavor gifs.  But let's not imagine that we are
forced to do so by the terms fo the GNU FDL.

Also, the FSF says:
"We were able to search the patent databases of the USA, Canada, Japan,
and the European Union. The Unisys patent expired on 20 June 2003 in
the USA, but it does not expire in most of Europe until 18 June 2004,
in Japan until 20 June 2004 and in Canada until 7 July 2004."

So, the whole thing will be history soon anyway.

--Jimbo


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: The New French Editor and edit war

body:
Anthere wrote:
> * he can prove he is the main author of some articles
> (he gives this link as an example
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Sanskrit&action=history
>
> * he can show further proofs of him being the author,
> such as school notes (I suppose he teaches that
> topic), or articles notes
>
> * he knows where to seek legal advice. He adds that he
> does not want to do that, but should he has further
> problem with his intellectual ownership to these
> articles I insist on editing, he will know where to go

Well, I know nothing much of French law, but I suspect that his claims
are not true.  Once he releases his work under GNU FDL, to a website
that specifically warns that his work will be edited mercilessly, I
don't really see what kind of claim he might have.

But, for this sort of person, it is often better to just let them go
away, rather than to quibble over nonsense.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] CNN article on Wikipedia

body:
Andrew Lih wrote:
> Got to love video editing... I was talking about Hong Kong entries at
> the time, but of course it came off like WP was only updated a few times
> an hour.  I cringed too when I saw the way it came off. :)

Hey, I thought it was all *excellent*.

Let me share a personal angle on this.  I'm sorry to say that before I
watched the video, I had never heard of you nor had I realized that
there was a flurry of Hong Kong entries.  I've been busy the past few
weeks, and it's all I can do to keep up with mailing list
controversies.

Now, despite the general p.r. impression that I'm some kind of
Internet baron, I'm actually a regular guy who works from an office at
home.  I live in an ordinary house with my wife and daughter.  I sit
and type all day, and then I go to the grocery, visit the park,
ordinary stuff like that.

Even though I've been on the Internet for years, it still astounds me
when I stop and think about it that I can just toss off a note to a
professor in Hong Kong!

So, imagine my shock and pleasure to click on a link and see a video
on CNN (CNN!) with a bunch of people I never heard of or even
imagined, all talking about Wikipedia.  Wow.

And what you said was exactly the way I like to see it expressed, i.e.
that Wikipedia is a completely insane way to run a website, absolutely
destined to disaster -- except that it works.

This Internet thing is pretty cool.  I think it might actually catch
on.

--Jimbo


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Ceasefire declared

body:
I'm hereby declaring a ceasefire in the Jtdirl/RK flamewar.  This is
not a proclamation to be enforced by banning or anything like that,
it's just a proclamation to be enforced by mutual respect.

I don't see that any progress is being made right now, so I ask all
parties to just let it drop for now.  Just let the pages be on the
Wikipedia for a little while, let the attacks and counter-attacks
cease on the mailing list, and maybe in a few weeks, tempers will have
cooled enough to permit a kinder and more productive mutual approach.

And I ask everyone to "be the bigger party".  If the other fellow
tries to bait you with one last snarky comment, just take pleasure in
how he looks like a jerk, and don't give in to the temptation to
respond in kind.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Please stop lying about the content of my letters

body:
Stan Shebs wrote:
> You're lucky that Jimbo is an ultra-nice guy; if
> I were in charge, both you and Jtdir1 would have been
> permanently hard-banned months ago for ad hominem and
> abusive remarks to other people.

Well, in this case, both are longtime and respected contributors who I
think can rise above it.  It's worth noting, though, that I am getting
tired of it.

> It's OK to criticize an edit, and even to use nasty words
> in the criticism, but you cross the line when you start
> applying them to the people directly, and when you impute
> vicious motives to people you don't know at all.

Precisely.  That's the big problem here.  Whatever the issues are with
various articles, the situation is only made worse by mutual sniping.
It puts people in defensive mode, etc.

We have to be kind to each other, even when we don't like each other,
or we end up generating more heat than light.

--Jimbo


in_reply_to: <3F32BAA9.2020001@telus.net>; from saintonge@telus.net on Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 01:46:33PM -0700

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> We should insist that they both lay off the subject, failing which the
> sysop privileges of one or the other or both could be suspended until
> they get the message.

Well, in my ceasefire, I'm not making any direct threats of anything
like that... yet.  But really, they should both just relax.


list: textbook-l

subject: [Textbook-l] letter to RMS

body:
Have you sent this yet?  I'm drafting something similar to send in a
mass mailing to RMS, Larry Lessig, and other notables.

Karl Wick wrote:

> I drafted this letter to RMS to seek his blessing on a
> change to the terms of the GNU FDL which would allow some
> sharing between the GNU FDL and other copyleft licenses.
> Lets see if we can get a consensus on this so we can send
> it out to him.
>
> --Karl
>
> To: "rms" at "stallman" period "org"
>
> Dear Richard,
>
> A quick question. I am writing on behalf of the Wikipedia
> and Wikimedia Foundation with a licensing question. The
> Wikipedia has grown to be the largest resource of open
> content, copylefted material known. As you know, all of its
> content is licensed under the terms of the GNU FDL.
>
> Recently, other open content, copyleft licenses have come
> into use, most notably some Creative Commons licenses.
>
> I am interested in a level of intercompatibility between
> the GNU FDL and these other copyleft licenses. The goals
> are to preserve the copyleft nature of the material while
> allowing material to be shared under certain circumstances
> and conditions with other projects using these paralell
> licenses.
>
> My interest lies in adding a clause to the terms of the GNU
> FDL license that would in some way allow the sharing of
> materials exclusively with other copyleft licenses. You of
> course would have to be in agreement with all end changes
> as well as the process to get there.
>
> Thank you very much for your attention,
> Karl Wick
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Textbook-l] letter to RMS

body:
Karl Wick wrote:

>I drafted this letter to RMS to seek his blessing on a
>change to the terms of the GNU FDL which would allow some
>sharing between the GNU FDL and other copyleft licenses.
>Lets see if we can get a consensus on this so we can send
>it out to him.

First suggestion:
Never say "open" to Richard Stallman.  Say "free".

More generally:
If you put this on a wiki page (on textbook or meta),
then we can all edit this more easily together.
^_^

-- Toby


from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] RE: letter to RMS

body:
Jimmy wrote:
>Have you sent this yet?

No, Jimmy, I have not sent it.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>As a recovering Assemblies of God/700 Club member/Young Republican, that
>sounds rather paternal; so everybody else are sheep?

ROTFLMAO!!!
(And I don't usually say that.)

Sorry, mav, but I was just imagining you sitting in front of a TV,
watching Pat Robertson and getting all worked up with righteousness.

For those worried that "firefighter" tends to imply
that a wave of newbies is a problem (a raging fire),
just remember that it was originally the Wikipedia "militia".

Anyway, I suggest "guide".

-- Toby


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [Textbook-l] disappearing/reappearing column-side notes

body:
--- Karl Wick <karlwick at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here is a technical question: in the same way that
> the
> table of contents feature can be opened and
> collapsed with
> a click  apparently wihout reloading the whole page
> (which
> IMHO is a very cool feature !), could we have
> collapseable
> notes for the edge of a document ?
>
> I am talking in reference to the idea put forth by
> Mav to
> have two columns on some pages with a text on one
> side and
> notes about that text next to it in a second column.
> Could
> we have a tiny link nested right in the main text
> that
> would expand a box on the side of the page,
> revealing a
> note relevent to the text ?
>
> This would be a great feature for Shakespeare plays
> with
> tons of side notes and comments, or even in a
> textbook
> where there are bunches of semi-relevent
> semi-tangental
> comments that could add to the understanding of a
> subject
> .. having the dialog boxes makes them easily
> available
> without having to go to a whole new page and back
> while
> still communicating that it is a secondary idea and
> giving
> the reader the choice of skipping them. Having them
> open
> and close means that 1. They are not cluttering up
> the
> whole page and 2. you can fit a bunch of them in a
> small
> space for those times when you need to.

Sounds like a good idea. In the XULplanet Noteapp
tutorial, there are little DHTML colapsable boxes that
are very well done. Perhaps we could ask the author of
that tutorial if we could borrow the code for
wikipedia. Or maybe I can make a clone of it with less
clutter. I'll work on that.
-LittleDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Steve Vertigo wrote:

>>Maybe there should ba a way to purge our watchlists?
>>Ive had a feeling for a while that auto logging these
>>were maybe bogging things down, if only to add a few
>>commands to the server load.

>Already added that.

This is the <&magic=yes> option?
Please, even if the watchlist works like a charm later on,
keep the <&magic=yes> option, just as it is now!

Thank you.

-- Toby


subject: [Textbook-l] California history text standards

body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
> http://www.cde.ca.gov/standards/history/
>
> We're focussing on grades 9, 10, 11, and 12.
>
> The titles of the content standards are:
>
> Grade 9 -- no standards, schools are supposed to
> offer electives
>
> Grade 10 -- World History, Culture, and Geography:
> The Modern World
>
> Grade 11 -- United States History and Geography:
> Continuity and Change
> in the Twentieth Century
>
> Grade 12 -- Principles of American Democracy and
> Economics
>
> I think it is pretty clear, and a conversation with
> LittleDan has
> further convinced me, that our expertise lies best
> in Grade 10 --
> World History, Culture, and Geography: The Modern
> World.
>
> Here's the link:
> http://www.cde.ca.gov/standards/history/grade10.html
>
> and similar for Florida:
>
http://www.firn.edu/doe/curriculum/crscode/basic612/912/ss912/2109310.pdf
>
> although the actual "Instructional Materials
> Specifications" for
> Florida are apparently buried here:
>
http://www.firn.edu/doe/instmat/pdf/social_studies.pdf
> (see page 189, which is Adobe page 198)
>
> As you can see, these are detailed specifications,
> and we should
> probably be able to write to it with a fair degree
> of success.
>
> A "ToDo" list on this would include making sure that
> this is the right
> document to work from, and also to look on the web
> to see if Texas
> standards can be found as well.
>
> And any other states or countries that anyone has a
> particular
> interest in, of course.
>
> (For example, are there published content standards
> for courses in
> Australia and Great Britain, etc.?)
>
> --Jimbo

If this textbook is for 10th graders and I'm going
into 9th grade this year, should I not participate?
--LittleDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Steve-
> Instead of Wikipedia "Volunteer Firefighters" -- I
> propose we call them (us) "shepherds."

I object. Firefighters is perfect.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>K Forstner wrote:
>
>
>>Did the announcement that the page would be disabled
>>escape my notice? What is going to be disabled next?
>>Wikipedia?
>>
>>
>
>What the hell! My Watchlist has been the main thing
>between me and wiki-insanity ever since it became
>impractical (and later /impossible/) to review an
>entire day's edits.
>
Wiki tech recently saw a discussion between me & someone else about a
"next 250 changes" link at the foot of RC.

That would let addicts like Mav and me check a whole day in small
increments.

Any word on that?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Actually, Related Changes is more like Watchlist than it is like
> Recent Changes, and when you dump a couple thousand links to Related
> Changes, it's pretty slow too.
>
> Both Related Changes and the Watchlist have the same problem: they
> have a long list of pages sorted by ID or title, but need to report
> them sorted by timestamp. This requires fetching a couple thousand
> rows and sorting every single one before returning the last N edits.
>
> As an example, it takes 10 seconds or so to return Related Changes on
> a copy of my watchlist:
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Recentchangeslinked/User:Brion_VIBBER/Watchlist_demo
>
>
I might be stating the obvious here...

but each time I look at my watchlist, only a dozen or so pages have
moved to the top.
So you could discard everything that is older than the last view, or
maybe the last day / week (user option?)

Or would this method be better:

1. grab stored version watchlist (already ordered)
2. get date of last view of watchlist
3. examine the RC list from that date on
4. pick out items from that list that exist on the watchlist


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:

>--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>As a recovering Assemblies of God/700 Club
>>member/Young Republican, that
>>sounds rather paternal; so everybody else are sheep?
>>
>>
>
>To deal with the idea on more "scriptural" grounds --
>as an analogy the passage where God gives man
>"dominion over the beasts in the land birds in the air
>fish in the sea" --- "Dominion" sounds kina like
>domination -- in fact what it means is shepherdship --
>
>
>
a good reason to object -- the reference to biblical stuff
(and sadly some people *do* interpret it as domination)


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [WikiEN-l] I really do wish I could talk to Jtdirl

body:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT), Steve Vertigo
<utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> gave utterance to the following:

> Um James, thats an awful long email, if you know what
> I mean.
>
But since you full-quoted, yours was .7kb longer. Oh, the irony.
--
Richard Grevers
Bureaucrats cut red tape - lengthwise


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikimedia.org

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> IBM:  "Think"
> Apple:  "Think different"
> Wikimedia:  "Think free"

Nike: Just do it!
Wikipedia: Just edit it!

Descartes: I think, therefore I am.
Wikipedia: I think, therefore I contribute.

New Hampshire: Live free or die.
Wikipedia: Agree or edit.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Toby Bartels wrote:
>For those worried that "firefighter" tends to imply
>that a wave of newbies is a problem (a raging fire),
>just remember that it was originally the Wikipedia
>"militia".

The fires created are not the newbies themselves, but the damage a small part
of them do (either intentional or not). "Guide" is still too paternal for my
taste. In my part of the world at least, firefighters play the role of
general emergency personell (providing extraction and medical assistance at
car crashes and such) and only on relatively rare occasions fight actual
fires. IMO that makes them a very positive symbol.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: License Incompatibilities

body:
Erik wrote:
>I still don't see the problem. If you dual license
>Wikitravel, your authors will have no direct
>disadvantage whatsoever. It's just another
>sentence on the article submission form. Both
>licenses grant derivative rights.

I see a problem; none of the current Wikimedia projects wants to be a travel
guide, so where o where will Wikitravel's text be used? The last thing I want
is travel guide type text such as  "Good places to eat in Mexico City" in our
Wikipedia article on Mexico City. That type of stuff is not appropriate for
an encyclopedia. Just provide an external link to the Wikitravel article at
[[Mexico City]].

We plan on coercing both the CC and GNU people to make their copyleft content
licenses copy/paste compatible anyway, so I don't see any real benefits for
Wikitravel to be dual licensed now; all that would accomplish is confuse
their contributors (part of the whole point of the CC/Att-SA license is to be
/less/ confusing than other copyleft content licenses - such as the FDL).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


body:
LittleDan wrote:
>If this textbook is for 10th graders and I'm going
>into 9th grade this year, should I not participate?

Since you obviously are already smarter than most high school seniors, I see
no point in not allowing you to contribute. If you make a mistake then that
mistake will be corrected or reverted; same goes for college professors with
fancy PhDs around here.

--mav


from_name: Geoffrey Thomas

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wikidown spam...

body:
Brion Vibber saith:
> The wikidown address has been getting spam in the last few days... I
> don't know if Lee still has it forwarding to his beeper, but that could
> be awful annoying. :P
>
> Suggestions?

Contact the spammers and say that this isn't a personal e-mail address
and that any advertisements will be ignored? 'Contact' meaning go to
the spammers' website and find a e-mail address, not (of course) reply
to the spam. Okay, maybe that's not the best idea...

Ask for the message to be quoted in its entirety? I myself already do
that and most others likely do. This is simpler than asking for 2pi,
"managing flamingos", etc. in the message, and serves the same purpose.

Change the wikidown address, say, to wiki.down at bomis.com? Or preferably
wikidown at wikipedia.org and set mail.bomis.com as a backup MX? I doubt
anyone has the wikidown address in his/her address book, so it wouldn't
be hard to change the address.

Is it a virus or HTML mail? Virus spam and HTML mail often contain
large attachments. If we require that the wikidown mail be in plaintext,
most people can do that, and there should be enough people reporting to
make up for those who can't send plaintext (if any).

Best idea: if the wiki's down in the sense of blocked database - not
in the sense of server crashed and the page won't load - let larousse
automatically send e-mail to an address at bomis.com that's hidden to
the public.

-Geoffrey

=====
-Geoffrey Thomas
geoffreyerffoeg at yahoo.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Dante Alighieri

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
At 06:44 AM 8/7/2003, you wrote:
>For those worried that "firefighter" tends to imply
>that a wave of newbies is a problem (a raging fire),
>just remember that it was originally the Wikipedia "militia".
>
>
>Anyway, I suggest "guide".
>
>
>-- Toby

How about docent? We could all be a bunch of park rangers. ;)

-----
Dante Alighieri
dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321


from_name: Steve Vertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
The Maverick wrote:
> The fires created are not the newbies themselves,
> but the damage a small part
> of them do (either intentional or not). "Guide" is
> still too paternal for my
> taste. In my part of the world at least,
> firefighters play the role of
> general emergency personell (providing extraction
> and medical assistance at
> car crashes and such) and only on relatively rare
> occasions fight actual
> fires. IMO that makes them a very positive symbol.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

Ha. "Wikipedia Emergency Medical Technicians."  JTE
(just to explain), I was maybe thinking the
firefighter thing was kind of a novelty act.  When the
high tide of post 911 nationalism eventually goes back
out to sea, the seaweed and rotting orcas left behind
dont usually get doused with retardant and hooked up
to plasma. But then again they dont get "shepherded"
off either. :)  I suppose shepherds have more to do --
firefighters  conduct their normal lives and toss foam
on occasion -- shephership requires devotion and
dedication, while firefighters only need a pager --
So, yeah I suppose firefighters might fit the WP
better.

-S-

-S-

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

>On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 05:33:18PM +0100, tarquin wrote:
>
>
>>Wookee does this:
>>
>>
Triple indent

>>
>>and sets stuff in the stylesheet :)
>>
>>
>
>That's nicer, but it won't work in non-css browsers
>like most text browsers.
>
>Any idea of doing it in a way that's both sane and
>text-browser-compatible ?
>

There is no such way.

 would work, but you're not _supposed_ to use it for
indentation of things that aren't quotes.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Evan Prodromou

in_reply_to:
Andre Engels's message of "Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:54:14 +0200
 (CEST)"

body:
>>>>> "AE" == Andre Engels <engels at uni-koblenz.de> writes:

    AE> Yes, the _publisher_ can offer as many licenses as he wants,
    AE> but the _copier_ can redistribute it under only one one
    AE> license, namely the license that he has accepted.

Ah, yes. And, being as wikitravel.org and every contributor would be
copying, deriving, etc., this is kind of a problem.

I'm really grateful for the Wikipedia software, and I'd like to figure
out a way to make Wikipedia and Wikitravel content miscible. If it was
just _me_ having to put up with the hassle, well, that's fine.

But, y'know, it's not me who'd pay the price. It's all the
contributors (OK, all 20 so far B-) and redistributors of Wikitravel
that would have to pay. I don't think that's really fair.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


body:
I still dont see Evans point -- what would be the
reason for breaking from GNU FDL at all?  Its not the
software that drives wiki -- its the open principle
that drives the softwares development (no to mention
the WP's resonance) -- the FDL is simply a way to
codify that principle.   Quote:  "Contributors (OK,
all 20 so far B-) and redistributors of Wikitravel"

That 20, considering the WP ratio of 1000
contributors/100 regulars (?)-- might be more like 2.
If you bog down your project with unnecessary legalese
-- you might be holding steady at 2 until fresh-baked
Plutonium-239 has gone through a few half-lives.

-S-

> Evan-
> > Ah, yes. And, being as wikitravel.org and every
> contributor would be
> > copying, deriving, etc., this is kind of a
> problem.
>
> > I'm really grateful for the Wikipedia software,
> and I'd like to figure
> > out a way to make Wikipedia and Wikitravel content
> miscible. If it was
> > just _me_ having to put up with the hassle, well,
> that's fine.
>
> > But, y'know, it's not me who'd pay the price. It's
> all the
> > contributors (OK, all 20 so far B-) and
> redistributors of Wikitravel
> > that would have to pay. I don't think that's
> really fair.
>
> I still don't see the problem. If you dual license
> Wikitravel, your
> authors will have no direct disadvantage whatsoever.
> It's just another
> sentence on the article submission form. Both
> licenses grant derivative
> rights.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
--- tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:

> Wiki tech recently saw a discussion between me & someone else about
> a
> "next 250 changes" link at the foot of RC.

Excellent idea.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
--- Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ha. "Wikipedia Emergency Medical Technicians."  JTE
> (just to explain), I was maybe thinking the
> firefighter thing was kind of a novelty act.  When the
> high tide of post 911 nationalism eventually goes back
> out to sea, the seaweed and rotting orcas left behind
> dont usually get doused with retardant and hooked up
> to plasma. But then again they dont get "shepherded"
> off either. :)  I suppose shepherds have more to do --
> firefighters  conduct their normal lives and toss foam
> on occasion -- shephership requires devotion and
> dedication, while firefighters only need a pager --
> So, yeah I suppose firefighters might fit the WP
> better.

Well, how about janitors? Seems to imply that not only do we take the
trash out, we're not positioning ourselves in a position that can be
perceived as paternal or as a figure of authority.

For those who prefer to be more down-to-earth, they can be known as
the garbage men or trash collectors.

For those whose egos resist such labels, how about maintenance
technician?

Finally, for those who don't want to be associated with trash or dirt
and prefer the more esteemed world of the medical profession: nurses.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
I do find the whole argument tedious to follow.  The first paragraph of
Stan's quote of Robert's complaints establishes only a lack of
specificity in Robert's claim.  The article history and talk page for
[[Israel]] doesn't help at all, and I really don't have the time to
understand enough what is at the root of the argument to be helpful.
The combattants ignore everybody's pleas to cool it.  Although I sense
that Robert's attitude is the more strident, neither seems to know when
to let go of the subject until he is the one with the last word.

We should insist that they both lay off the subject, failing which the
sysop privileges of one or the other or both could be suspended until
they get the message.

Eclecticology

Stan Shebs wrote:

> Robert wrote:
>
>> James Duffy, JTDIRL, has been causing problems on the
>> "State of Israel" article of late, because he refuses to
>> work with others in our Wikipedia peer-review. Instead of
>> working on the many Arab and Jewish refugee articles that
>> already exist, he keeps bypassing the peer-review by trying
>> to stuff his own biased statements into new articles.
>>
>> When I noted this, he made personal attacks on me as
>> promoting "censorship". This is a violation of Wikipedia
>> protocol.
>
> You mean like this?
>
> "It is difficult to work with someone who repeatedly makes
> false claims, and who has a persecution complex."
>
> (In case you've forgotten, this is you writing about Anthere
> several weeks ago.)
>
> You'd have a lot more sympathy if you didn't have a long
> history of making nasty personal accusations about other
> people. You're lucky that Jimbo is an ultra-nice guy; if
> I were in charge, both you and Jtdir1 would have been
> permanently hard-banned months ago for ad hominem and
> abusive remarks to other people.
>
> It's OK to criticize an edit, and even to use nasty words
> in the criticism, but you cross the line when you start
> applying them to the people directly, and when you impute
> vicious motives to people you don't know at all.


from_name: Peter Gervai

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: PNG format???

body:
On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 04:52:08AM -0700, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> So, the whole thing will be history soon anyway.

But we know that PNG is better, so yes, GIF is history.

;-)

grin

ps: but it's not a real question anyway. 'pedia logos were and are PNGs so
if you don't see them now, you shouldn't run in the logo contest. :-)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] What If?

body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:

>Is there a program written yet to chart the topical
>flow of newsgroup discussions? --  taking into
>consideration the lulls and the ebbs -- the rate of
>recurrence of heated debates (on various particular
>subjects) -- of new readers asking a elementary
>question about a topic that was only a week ago was
>discussed to death for three straight weeks? Etc. Etc.
>
>:)
>-SV (still catching up on the last three days)
>
I just had to catch up with a month's worth of edits! :-P

I wonder if such a suggestion is even possible; but you at least have my
sympathy.

The new reader part is not a big bother.  These questions are often
short and simple, and many can be easily be answered by whoever happens
to be available.

Some of the debates are extremely annoying, such as the recent
Robert/Jtdirl dispute, and the ones that complain about yet another
reincarnation of Lir.  Perhaps we could have a whineopedia mailing list
(or if our Brits prefer a wingeopedia).  A moderator on this list could
redirect any qualifying letters to that list.  Or perhaps, to save the
sanity of the moderator, an anti-spam device could make the diversion.
 "Lir" and "anti-Semitism" are canditates for words that would trigger
the diversion.  Anyone who likes receiving this kind of message wuld be
free to subscribe to the whineopedia list. :-)

Ec


from_name: Nicholas Knight

subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
On Thursday 07 August 2003 12:15, Brion Vibber wrote:
> <blockquote> would work, but you're not _supposed_ to use it for
> indentation of things that aren't quotes.

The 4.01 standard says 'The usage of BLOCKQUOTE to indent text is deprecated
in favor of style sheets.'

"Deprecated" doesn't mean "you can't do that", it's closer to "avoid doing
that if possible, and if you go to a later standard, be ready to not be able
to do it". But the doctype line at the top of Wikipedia's pages doesn't say
"the latest standard", it says "HTML 4.01 Transitional", and HTML 4.01
transitional says "you can do it if you really want to". And since we appear
to be stuck on supporting browsers that can't keep up with 5-7 year old
standards, it would appear we "really want to".


from_name: sgilbert at nbnet.nb.ca

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l digest, Vol 1 #1265 - 13 msgs

body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:

> The Cunctator wrote:
> >
> > Hmm. Maybe a web-based bulletin board which by its
> > nature helps people
> > sort discussions by topic and discourages getting
> > off topic, and which
> > allows for easier reference to the Wikipedia content
> > being discussed?
> >
> > Just a thought.
>
> I think it may be getting practical --- there seems to
> be inclreased traffic on the lists -- I still cant
> figure out why the Village pump isnt run as some kind
> of threaded chat page. -- even that would be against
> the purpose of
>
> -- the digests are miserable due to all the metadata,
> -- the archives are fairly ok to read from -- aside
> from plain email -- but theres no return form from
> archives to answer with, and it has an annoying bug of
> not wrapping unformatted text -- so that LD's and
> others messages read as a single very long string...

Have you tried using the GMANE ( http://www.gmane.org/ )
interface with a good newsreader? It threads dscussions quite well,
and if there is a thread you're not interested, just use the "Ignore"
function of your newsreader, and you never have to see it again.

As for a web-based BBS, no thanks. I find browser-based interfaces clunky
(alas, it's true for editing articles as well). Also, such a beast can't be
used offline, which is a big minus for me.

- Stephen G.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Watchlist

body:
My watchlist is currently defaulting to showing me only changes in
the past hour. Has someone changed the software?

Stephen G.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Watchlist

body:
Nevermind, I just saw the Wikipedia:Announcements page. It's on
my watchlist, but I was having problems with my watchlist, and...

Stephen

On 7 Aug 2003, at 16:09, wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org wrote:

> My watchlist is currently defaulting to showing me only changes in
> the past hour. Has someone changed the software?
>
> Stephen G.

-------
Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia
http://www.wikipedia.org


body:
Evan wrote:
http://www.wikitravel.org/article/Wikitravel:Why_Wikitravel_isn%27t_GFDL

> With the by-sa CC license, you have a copyright
> notice and the URL of
> the license. Baddabingbaddaboom.
>
> We need a print-it-and-go-license; the GFDL is much
> more oriented to
> publishing bound books, where adding another 10
> pages isn't really
> that important.
> I'm not sure I followed this part.

Well -- I kinda assumed that the GFDL was usable for
all your needs -- It doesnt make sense that the full
text of something GNU be reproduced -- It seems that
Before you ever print anything -- you need content,
and generally the go with what works-ness of the
GNUFDL would usually work. Perhaps if you went with
the FDL anyway (for starters), by the time you
actually had enough material where someone wants to
reproduce a flier from some of it, there will be some
resolution to the license reproduction issue.

-S-

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] Ceasefire declared

body:
>From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>
>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Ceasefire declared
>Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:27:14 -0700
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Received: from pliny.wikipedia.org ([130.94.122.197]) by
>mc4-f10.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 7 Aug
>2003 05:31:34 -0700
>Received: from pliny.wikipedia.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by
>pliny.wikipedia.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h77CVJY14969;Thu, 7 Aug
>2003 12:31:19 GMT
>Received: from joey.bomis.com (root at joey.bomis.com [130.94.122.196])by
>pliny.wikipedia.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h77CUUY14920for
><wikien-l at wikipedia.org>; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:30:30 GMT
>Received: from joey.bomis.com (jwales at localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by
>joey.bomis.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h77CREq6025513for
><wikien-l at wikipedia.org>; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:27:14 -0700
>Received: (from jwales at localhost)by joey.bomis.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit)
>id h77CREuH025512for wikien-l at wikipedia.org; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:27:14 -0700
>X-Message-Info: EoYTbT2lH2MsQxQLKd6QGg8OdPqYrWLN
>Message-ID: <20030807052714.M23909 at joey.bomis.com>
>User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
>Sender: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
>Errors-To: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
>X-BeenThere: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13
>Precedence: bulk
>List-Help: <mailto:wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org?subject=help>
>List-Post: <mailto:wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>List-Subscribe:
><http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>,<mailto:wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>List-Id: Discussion list for English-language Wikipedia
><wikien-l.wikipedia.org>
>List-Unsubscribe:
><http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>,<mailto:wikien-l-request at wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>List-Archive: <http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/>
>Return-Path: wikien-l-admin at wikipedia.org
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2003 12:31:34.0780 (UTC)
>FILETIME=[D6CE1BC0:01C35CDF]
>
>I'm hereby declaring a ceasefire in the Jtdirl/RK flamewar.  This is
>not a proclamation to be enforced by banning or anything like that,
>it's just a proclamation to be enforced by mutual respect.
>
>I don't see that any progress is being made right now, so I ask all
>parties to just let it drop for now.  Just let the pages be on the
>Wikipedia for a little while, let the attacks and counter-attacks
>cease on the mailing list, and maybe in a few weeks, tempers will have
>cooled enough to permit a kinder and more productive mutual approach.
>
>And I ask everyone to "be the bigger party".  If the other fellow
>tries to bait you with one last snarky comment, just take pleasure in
>how he looks like a jerk, and don't give in to the temptation to
>respond in kind.
>
>--Jimbo

That's perfectly OK with me. Thanks, Jimbo

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


from_name: Lightning

body:
>
>
>>I still don't see the problem. If you dual license
>>Wikitravel, your
>>authors will have no direct disadvantage whatsoever.
>>It's just another
>>sentence on the article submission form. Both
>>licenses grant derivative
>>rights.
>>

i just wish everything was public domain. I really don't like licenses.
i really see no point for not making things public domain.. that is TRUE
freedom without the viral side effects of GNU licenses. or commercial
restrictions of others.  i really never understood that part, i think it
really limits the uses of all that content / source.

I really wish wikipedia had used the public domain as a license.
therefore everything would be able to be used everywhere.

Lightning


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
I'm wondering about usage of `:' and `;'
This:

:::Triple indent
Paragraph

Generates this:

 Triple indent

Paragraph

What makes absolutely no sense.

Any idea to do it in a saner way ?


body:
Lightning wrote:
>I really wish wikipedia had used the public domain
>as a license.

Public domain is /not/ a license. It is the lack of a
license.

>therefore everything would be able to be used
everywhere.

And then Encarta gets a huge free update by importing
all our work into their encyclopedia and then /not/
allowing us, or anybody else for that matter, to use
their improvements as a basis to further improve the
text. The whole cycle of positive feedback gets sucked
dry by parasites who take our text and enslaves it
under a proprietary license. Copyleft protects the
freedom of the content itself.

Information is already free; with copyleft we are
ensuring that it's presentation will also be free.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikimedia.org

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Oliver Pereira wrote:
>
>> "Learn free. Think free."
>>
>> It sounds grammatically strange to me. Maybe I'm just a bit slow on the
>> uptake, but it took me a while to work out how it could even be
>> grammatically correct...
>
I find it a bit blah, but grammatically correct.

> Obviously you can't have liked Apple's "Think different" ad campaign a
> couple years back. ;)
>
>> How about just saying, "Free books!" :)
>>
> Hmm, the logo could be a book sitting in a jail cell. :)
>
IBM:  "Think"
Apple:  "Think different"
Wikimedia:  "Think free"

An interesting sequence!


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

>I'm wondering about usage of `:' and `;'
>This:
>
>:::Triple indent
>Paragraph
>
>Generates this:
>
>

>

 Triple indent
>

Paragraph
>
>What makes absolutely no sense.
>
>

Wookee does this:

Triple indent

and sets stuff in the stylesheet :)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> How about '''phagocytes''' circulating thoroughout the body of
> Wikipedia
> devouring infections?

Nice... Except, what's a phagocyte? Wikipedia Antibiotics?

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


body:
--- Lightning <lightning at chaos-productions.com> wrote:
> here lies our difference in thinking. to me that would be OK. let
> encarta use my work if they want, let brittannica, let anyone use
> it..
> it just doesnt bother me much,  after all, much of wikipedia came
> from
> the public domain.
>
> What i figure is this, people who don't want to share their work,
> wont
> share it anyways, they'll just waste man hours creating a new
> original
> which they can not-share..   people who cant to contribute would do
> it
> anyways.

I wold not like encarta or any other for-profit org to use the edits
I have made. If they want me to edit their encyclodedia, I'm $50/hr.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


body:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Christopher Mahan wrote:
> I wold not like encarta or any other for-profit org to use the edits
> I have made. If they want me to edit their encyclodedia, I'm $50/hr.

Microsoft, Brittanica, etc are free to use anything you've contributed to
Wikipedia without paying you a dime -- so long as they abide by the terms
of the license.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
--- Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
> > How about '''phagocytes''' circulating thoroughout
> the body of
> > Wikipedia
> > devouring infections?
>
> Nice... Except, what's a phagocyte? Wikipedia
> Antibiotics?

White blood cells or things with similar function, I
think.
-LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> How about '''phagocytes''' circulating thoroughout
> the body of Wikipedia
> devouring infections?
>
> Ec

That's my favorite so far, even if it was meant as a
joke. But we're killing the articles, not the people;
we have to make that clear. It implies the
collectiveness of wikipedia into one body, which I
like
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


in_reply_to:
Steve Vertigo's message of "Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:36:35 -0700
 (PDT)"

body:
>>>>> "SV" == Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> writes:

    SV> I still dont see Evans point -- what would be the reason for
    SV> breaking from GNU FDL at all?

Umm, here's the deal:

     http://www.wikitravel.org/article/Wikitravel:Why_Wikitravel_isn%27t_GFDL

The basics: we want Wikitravel content to be useful as 1-2 page
fliers, printouts, etc. Tourist agencies, hotels could keep stacks on
the counter and pass them out in paper form. Helpful travellers could
keep copies of articles in their backpacks.

The GFDL requires also distributing the 8-10 page content of the GFDL
itself, as well as a changelog, with each article. If you distribute
more than 100 copies -- pretty reasonable, actually -- you also have
to distribute the "transparent" work, i.e. Wiki markup source
code. So if you have a stack of 100 photocopies of a one-page article
-- pretty reasonable -- you have to have 1000 pages of license text
and a stack of 100 floppy disks or CD-ROMs.

With the by-sa CC license, you have a copyright notice and the URL of
the license. Baddabingbaddaboom.

We need a print-it-and-go-license; the GFDL is much more oriented to
publishing bound books, where adding another 10 pages isn't really
that important.

    SV> Its not the software that drives wiki -- its the open
    SV> principle that drives the softwares development (no to mention
    SV> the WP's resonance) -- the FDL is simply a way to codify that
    SV> principle.  Quote: "Contributors (OK, all 20 so far B-) and
    SV> redistributors of Wikitravel"

I'm not sure I followed this part.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] I give up

body:
I tried putting this on the Village pump, but that's impossible to edit right now -- far too large and it takes too long to save, and edit conflicts are de rigeur.  I tried putting it on the Talk:Main Page, but just as I was saving, Wikipedia crashed.  So, here, maybe somebody can figure out what is going wrong and what can be done about it.

I need help with Searching.  I tried to split up [[Where in the World/Time is Carmen Sandiego?]] into [[Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?]] and [[Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?]], but when I tried to  move the page to [[Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?]], I was told that there is already a page with that name.  I then tried to use BOTH "Go" and "Search" to look for the page with the question mark, without the question mark, and just looking for Carmen Sandiego, and got nothing even close to what I was looking for.  In fact, "Search" returned '''''EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE''''' that had a string of "in" in it, regardless of whether it was a separate word or not.  It's impossible to find the page in order to see what its contents are to know what to do with [[Where in the World/Time is Carmen Sandiego?]]

As it now stands, if we have both  [[Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?]] and [[Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?]] (I don't know about the last one), we definitely don't need  [[Where in the World/Time is Carmen Sandiego?]], but which one should it redirect to?

RickK

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030807/7ad762dd/attachment.htm


subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 05:33:18PM +0100, tarquin wrote:
> Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> >I'm wondering about usage of `:' and `;'
> >This:
> >
> >:::Triple indent
> >Paragraph
> >
> >Generates this:
> >
> >

> >

 Triple indent
> >

Paragraph
> >
> >What makes absolutely no sense.
>
> Wookee does this:
>
>
Triple indent

>
> and sets stuff in the stylesheet :)

That's nicer, but it won't work in non-css browsers
like most text browsers.

Any idea of doing it in a way that's both sane and
text-browser-compatible ?


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Evan-
> Ah, yes. And, being as wikitravel.org and every contributor would be
> copying, deriving, etc., this is kind of a problem.

> I'm really grateful for the Wikipedia software, and I'd like to figure
> out a way to make Wikipedia and Wikitravel content miscible. If it was
> just _me_ having to put up with the hassle, well, that's fine.

> But, y'know, it's not me who'd pay the price. It's all the
> contributors (OK, all 20 so far B-) and redistributors of Wikitravel
> that would have to pay. I don't think that's really fair.

I still don't see the problem. If you dual license Wikitravel, your
authors will have no direct disadvantage whatsoever. It's just another
sentence on the article submission form. Both licenses grant derivative
rights.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] I give up

body:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Rick wrote:
> I need help with Searching.

I've switched the search to use MySQL 4's more powerful boolean search
mode. The default behavior is a little different. See:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Searching#Limiting_results

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
Daniel-
> I see a problem; none of the current Wikimedia projects wants to be a travel
> guide, so where o where will Wikitravel's text be used? The last thing I
> want is travel guide type text such as  "Good places to eat in Mexico City"
> in our Wikipedia article on Mexico City. That type of stuff is not
> appropriate for an encyclopedia. Just provide an external link to the
> Wikitravel article at [[Mexico City]].

Sure, in case of restaurant advice. But Wikitravel and Wikipedia will
inevitably overlap in other areas. Just checking their Recent changes now,
I see "Driving in Australia", which contains stuff like

...
Speed and distance in Australia are measured in kilometres rather than
miles, and Australians drive on the left-hand side of the road at all
times.

Road conditions in the 'outback' are much worse than those in more
inhabited parts. In Tasmania, Victoria, New South Wales and large parts of
South Australia and Queensland almost all the roads are reliable and in
good condition, and there are plenty of towns, farms and passing motorists
to give directions and aid to the bewildered or lost. Once you leave these
areas the quality and repair of the roads drops dramatically, as does the
amount of use they receive.
...

Or the entry about Kathmandu:

...
Kathmandu airport is the largest, and only international, airport in
Nepal. Visas are available on arrival for citizens of most countries. In
September of 2000 the cost was $20 US. Other options for arriving in
Kathmandu include buses from India (usually Varinasi or Lucknow) and other
parts of Nepal such as Chitwan National Park and the trekking hub of
Pokhara. Other options for entry into Nepal are limited.
...

Both of these could have been found in Wikipedia as well. There will be
more procedural knowledge in Wikitravel which is not in a style which we
want on Wikipedia, and more POV-advice type articles.  But there will
certainly be lots of material that would be worth copy and pasting.

> We plan on coercing both the CC and GNU people

It's usually the GNU people who do the coercing. I am looking forward to
more compatible licenses, but I highly doubt that this will come to pass
anytime soon.

> to make their copyleft
> content licenses copy/paste compatible anyway, so I don't see any real
> benefits for Wikitravel to be dual licensed now;

You would have all the benefits of compatibility without any wait.

> all that would accomplish
> is confuse their contributors  (part of the whole point of the CC/Att-SA
> license is to be /less/ confusing than other copyleft content licenses -
> such as the FDL).

Actually, the reason that Wikitravel uses the CC/SA license has not so
much to do with confusing contributors (who don't read the legalese anyway
and just contribute) but with making it easier for third parties to use
Wikitravel material. See
http://www.wikitravel.org/article/Wikitravel:Why_Wikitravel_isn%27t_GFDL

To these people, the FDL option would merely be an additional option to
use the material, one which they can safely ignore.

Of course, Wikitravel could also do what the infoAnarchy wiki does and
simply put all their material in the public domain. There you go -- no
more trouble with "copyleft enforcement", 100% compatible with every other
license.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>Public domain is /not/ a license. It is the lack of a
>license.
>
this is a prime example of youknowwhatimean

>And then Encarta gets a huge free update by importing
>all our work into their encyclopedia and then /not/
>allowing us, or anybody else for that matter, to use
>their improvements as a basis to further improve the
>text. The whole cycle of positive feedback gets sucked
>dry by parasites who take our text and enslaves it
>under a proprietary license. Copyleft protects the
>freedom of the content itself.
>
>
here lies our difference in thinking. to me that would be OK. let
encarta use my work if they want, let brittannica, let anyone use it..
it just doesnt bother me much,  after all, much of wikipedia came from
the public domain.

What i figure is this, people who don't want to share their work, wont
share it anyways, they'll just waste man hours creating a new original
which they can not-share..   people who cant to contribute would do it
anyways.

Lightning


subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
Brion-
> <blockquote> would work, but you're not _supposed_ to use it for
> indentation of things that aren't quotes.

That's just silly. Let's use <blockquote>.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Matthias Jordan

subject: [Wikitech-l] Whitelist stuff, mail sender committed

body:
Hi, folks!

I just committed my changes. Default behaviour should be as usual. See
DefaultSettings.php for details.

Added:

+ Whitelist mode for reading and/or writing articles. If either one is
turned on, only logged in users are allowed to read and/or write
articles. It is still possible to view the rest - i.e. SpecialPages,
searches, etc. I admit this is merely a hack. A better way of
implementing this would be the complete block of acccess to the Wiki.
This would require changes to the Skins, though.

+ Whitelist mode for creating new accounts. Admins can define a list of
rights. Users who have a suitable right may create a new account. Rights
include: user (all users - even anonymous), sysop, developer. This, too,
is just a hack. Phase3 still lacks user friendly user management.

Changed:

+ It's possible to create an account for a friend and send her a
password by mail with the push of a button. This is only available for
logged in users who are allowed to create accounts.

+ Option that defines the mail sender for password reminder eMail messages.

Bye!

Matthias


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> LittleDan wrote:
> >If this textbook is for 10th graders and I'm going
> >into 9th grade this year, should I not participate?
>
> Since you obviously are already smarter than most high school seniors, I see
> no point in not allowing you to contribute. If you make a mistake then that
> mistake will be corrected or reverted; same goes for college professors with
> fancy PhDs around here.

Seconded!

At least if you work on this in your spare time, you'll have at least
one easy 'A' next year.  :-)

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 12:15:46PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> >That's nicer, but it won't work in non-css browsers
> >like most text browsers.
> >
> >Any idea of doing it in a way that's both sane and
> >text-browser-compatible ?
>
> There is no such way.
>
> <blockquote> would work, but you're not _supposed_ to use it for
> indentation of things that aren't quotes.

We're even less supposed to use "definition lists" for indentation.


from_name: Sanford Forte

body:
Right'o! In fact, you'll make history, in more ways than one.

Sanford

> Daniel Mayer wrote:
> > LittleDan wrote:
> > >If this textbook is for 10th graders and I'm going
> > >into 9th grade this year, should I not participate?
> >
> > Since you obviously are already smarter than most high school seniors, I
see
> > no point in not allowing you to contribute. If you make a mistake then
that
> > mistake will be corrected or reverted; same goes for college professors
with
> > fancy PhDs around here.
>
> Seconded!
>
> At least if you work on this in your spare time, you'll have at least
> one easy 'A' next year.  :-)
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] press release, anticipation

body:
Hello all,

I am very excited by the first press release for
wikimedia. Incidently, I thank the one who suggested a
multilingual release (I think it is Mav, but messages
get a lost among 95 digests...well..). Whether the
english wikipedia has a release for 200000 is good and
should be done, but a common release for the fundation
is ... the good way imho.

Anticipating :

1) It may have been said somewhere, but when can we
roughly said to have reach 300 000 together ? It does
not need to be very precise since no journalists will
be able to check numbers really :-)
will it be before or after the 200 000 ? How much time
should we respect between these two releases ?

2) When is decided that the time is the good one for
the press release, could we organise a sort of
schedule ? Each time the english wiki has a press
release, everything is slowed down, last time the
german release also had a clear impact on
availability. Should not we a bit try to schedule an
order among wikis, or some rough dates, so we can
smooth the peak ?

3) the links at the bottom of the message are all
english wikipedia oriented ? I saw Youssef translation
kept the english links. Have other wikis did the same
or should not we when possible have each wiki links
(for best prose; wikipedia description...)

4) Eclecticology (and other canadian friends)...could
you look for sending the release to a major canadian
press web site for the french wikipedia ? We need more
canadians on the fr ;-)

Away

Anthere

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Whitelist mode for article viewing

in_reply_to: <bgoerm$fsk$1@main.gmane.org>; from mjordan@code-fu.de on Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 04:29:05PM +0200

body:
Matthias Jordan wrote:
> > Totaling less than 70 lines of code. Do you really want to fork a

[...]
> But, hey, the diff is still only 150 lines in size. :-)

That's o.k., I think we all know that when a programmer says 1 week,
it means 2, and when a programmer says 70 lines of code, it really
means 140!  :-)

For awhile, I tried to defeat this mysterious law of nature by doubling
my own estimates before I told anyone.  Didn't help, because it still is
true that whatever you promise someone, the actuality is twice as bad!

If I think "this will take a week" and so double it and promise it in
two weeks, then it takes 4.

;-)

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Easter Bradford

in_reply_to: <008501c35b64$15a41d40$d5b12252@yourllwwtqhjzx>; from grahamburnett@blueyonder.co.uk on Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 04:12:56PM +0100

body:
Graham Burnett wrote:
> Someone with an axe to grind keeps inserting POV stuff into
> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Bradford and accusing anyone who makes
> any changes/reverts of being a 'liar'. Personally I've never even heard of
> Easter Bradford, but could somebody else cast an eye on this before I get
> drawn into an edit war about something I couldn't even care less about?

I would say that the bulk of that entry fails the confirmability test.
It does appear that someone with an axe to grind is doubting the
veracity of the information given, and without some independent
sources, my feeling is that the article should be removed or at least
cut back to a stub of confirmable information.

I just said the same thing on the talk page, and probably this
discussion can just continue there, as there's not really a policy
issue just yet.  Policy nerds such as myself should take note of this
as a good example for future discussions of people editing articles
about themselves.

My general feeling is that it is almost always a social faux pas to
write an article about yourself.  It's nearly always a faux pas to
even edit such an article, although if someone else wrote an entry
about you (and I'm not talking about a buddy that you put up to it!)
I suppose it wouldn't be horrible to step in and correct factual
errors.

To me there's a certain unsavory braggadocio involved in proclaiming
oneself to be worthy of an encyclopedia article.

--Jimbo


body:
Again, this is a policy discussion better suited to another list.
Let's keep this one technical.

Christopher Mahan wrote:
> I wold not like encarta or any other for-profit org to use the edits
> I have made. If they want me to edit their encyclodedia, I'm $50/hr.

Well, under the GNU FDL and the principles of freedom espoused by GNU,
they can use the edits you have made.  As for me, I *want* for-profit
entities to use our encyclopedia -- one fond hope is that after we get
to a 1.0 release (which will be prepped by us specifically for ease of
use by publishers) the market will be flooded by for-profit printers
all over the world.

The key concept here is not 'profit' versus 'non-profit', but rather
'proprietary' versus '(GNU) free'.

--Jimbo


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikitech-l] I-E math function error

body:
When I try to run a page that has the <math> function I get this error.

from within function "renderMath". MySQL returned error "1054: Unknown
column 'math_conservative' in 'field list'".

This is mysterious because the current create db asks you to create this:

mysql> show columns from math;
+----------------------------+-------------+------+-----+---------+-------+
| Field                      | Type        | Null | Key | Default | Extra |
+----------------------------+-------------+------+-----+---------+-------+
| math_inputhash             | varchar(16) |      | PRI |         |       |
| math_outputhash            | varchar(16) |      |     |         |       |
| math_html_conservativeness | tinyint(1)  |      |     | 0       |       |
| math_html                  | text        | YES  |     | NULL    |       |
| math_mathml                | text        | YES  |     | NULL    |       |
+----------------------------+-------------+------+-----+---------+-------+

Fred


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Toby Bartels wrote:
> >For those worried that "firefighter" tends to imply
> >that a wave of newbies is a problem (a raging
> fire),
> >just remember that it was originally the Wikipedia
> >"militia".
>
> The fires created are not the newbies themselves,
> but the damage a small part
> of them do (either intentional or not). "Guide" is
> still too paternal for my
> taste. In my part of the world at least,
> firefighters play the role of
> general emergency personell (providing extraction
> and medical assistance at
> car crashes and such) and only on relatively rare
> occasions fight actual
> fires. IMO that makes them a very positive symbol.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

I like "phagocyte" the best. They don't do most of the
function in your body, but they're still essential,
otherwise you will be diseased with viruses (trolls
and  vandal attacks other bad stuff that we have to
fix). If we dont eat (or tell about how wikipedia is
supposed to work and stop vandalising it) all of the
viruses, they will kill wikipedia by killing all of
our cells (ruining all of our articles) and doing
other bad stuff. Firefighter sounds too honorable, but
being a white blood cell isn't so honerable, just
nessesary.
LDan

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia sighting: Dr. Dobb's

body:
I was reading an article in Dr. Dobb's journal, on "the halting problem",
embedded
programming, and error handling, and for more information on the halting
problem,
they refer the reader to Wikipedia.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] I-E math function error

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

>When I try to run a page that has the <math> function I get this error.
>
>from within function "renderMath". MySQL returned error "1054: Unknown
>column 'math_conservative' in 'field list'".
>
Where are you seeing this? Is this on your server? Are you running old code?

The current code seems fine, as running on www.wikipedia.org.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

>
>That's nicer, but it won't work in non-css browsers
>like most text browsers.
>
>Any idea of doing it in a way that's both sane and
>text-browser-compatible ?
>
Text indent is presentational, not structural.
So it could be argued that it's correct for text-only and non-CSS
browsers not to show it.

having said that, we *need* it for talk pages, otherwise it is hard to
follow the lines of conversation.

And I think we can stand to break the rules for talk pages, since the
structure is pretty much all over the place anyway ;)

When do we use indentation in articles?
Lists should use * or #
Apart form that, I use it to indent <math> and quotations .... bingo!
BLOCKQUOTE is perfect for that!

So I think BLOCKQUOTE is the best option.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: CSS

body:
Walter Vermeir wrote:

>tarquin wrote
>
>>After *that*, I'll see about slowly tweaking the current skin.
>>We need to look a bit smarter in time for the 300k article
>>announcement.
>>
>The current default skin gives to non-technical visitors a bad impression.
>The find it looks old and not proffesional.
>
But we're not professional!  Let's not pretend that we are.  A bit of
amateurish isn't bad if it leaves people with the feeling that we are
closer to the non-technical person's level of computer understanding.
 We want people to contribute without being blinded by glitz. The
contents are far more important than the skin.

>I like the idea of very basic default look. But not al visitors do.
>
>A option where a visitor can choose a skin can improve the way a visitor
>looks at wikipedia.
>
There is something fundamentally illogical about this.  For a visitor to
be able to change the skin he needs to know something about our
"preferences".  By the time he knows enough to make that change he is no
longer just a visitor

>The wikipedia in a nice skin also looks better on television;
>http://www.ict-id.nl/wikipedia/html/wikipedia_index.html
>http://www22.brinkster.com/rotemdan/phase4-demo-v1-1.htm
>
These are very nice. :-P   We can have as many optional skins as we want.

Eclecticology


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Christopher Mahan wrote:
>
>
>>I wold not like encarta or any other for-profit org to use the edits
>>I have made. If they want me to edit their encyclodedia, I'm $50/hr.
>>
>>
>
>Microsoft, Brittanica, etc are free to use anything you've contributed to
>Wikipedia without paying you a dime -- so long as they abide by the terms
>of the license.
>
>
>
Yup. And thanks to the license, we have the right to copy it right back
to Wikipedia -- so we work for free, AND they've worked for free!


body:
Anthere wrote:

>4) Eclecticology (and other canadian friends)...could
>you look for sending the release to a major canadian
>press web site for the french wikipedia ? We need more
>canadians on the fr ;-)
>
Thanks, I've forwarded your message to Montrealais's talk page.  I am on
the west coast of Canada where the availability of things in French is
much more limited.  Someone in Montreal would be more suitable to the
task.  M continues to be active on WP, but has the sanity to mostly
avoid the mailing list.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Intention to rename: MediaWiki

body:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Erik Moeller wrote:
> I intend to edit relevant documentation and webpages to change the name of
> the software from "Phase III" to "MediaWiki". This is the name that Mav
> suggested, and it fits nicely together with "Wikimedia". Google shows that
> the name is unused. Any objections?

Sounds nice, and less likely to send crowds of confused protesters after
us than "PediaWiki". ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
Anthere wrote:
>I am very excited by the first press release for
>wikimedia. Incidently, I thank the one who
>suggested a multilingual release (I think it is
>Mav, but messages get a lost among 95 digests
>...well..).

Yep - it was me. You are welcome!

>Whether the english wikipedia has a
>release for 200000 is good and should be done,
>but a common release for the fundation is ... the
>good way imho.

Unless a bot is set loose, en.wiki will not hit 200,000 articles until at
least December. 150,000 is not a really important milestone for a separate
press release, IMO, especially since the project as a whole will reach
300,000 at about the same time as en.wiki hits 150,000.

>Anticipating :
>1) It may have been said somewhere, but when
>can we roughly said to have reach 300 000
>together ? It does not need to be very precise
>since no journalists will be able to check numbers
>really :-)

I'm thinking the end of the month or early next month. But, IMO, we can
distribute the press release anytime while we are in the 300,000 to 310,000
range. That should give us a little bit more time if we need it.

>2) When is decided that the time is the good
>one for the press release, could we organise
>a sort of schedule ? Each time the english wiki
>has a press release, everything is slowed down,
>last time the german release also had a clear
>impact on availability.

I dunno - there really aren't any slow times anymore. Before the press release
is released one of the developers should disable all non-vital slow features
from the largest 7 wikis.

>Should not we a bit try to schedule an
>order among wikis, or some rough dates,
>so we can smooth the peak ?

It might make sense to hold-off on the English release for a few days while
the other language press releases are distributed. There is a very good
chance that the release of the English version will make the website very,
very slow (en.wiki may have to be in read-only mode for a while once that
happens).

>3) the links at the bottom of the message are
>all english wikipedia oriented ? I saw Youssef
>translation kept the english links. Have other wikis
>did the same or should not we when possible have
>each wiki links (for best prose; wikipedia description...)

Please change those links to point to any corresponding pages in French. You
can also translate the most important parts of the English pages into French
and then link to those new pages. This translating work doesn't have to wait
for the press release on meta to be finished.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Easter Bradford

body:
--- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:

> To me there's a certain unsavory braggadocio involved in
> proclaiming
> oneself to be worthy of an encyclopedia article.

Of course, one could argue that you're not relying on second-hand
information.

Generally, though, I agree with you.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Phase III name change to MediaWiki and separate press releases

body:
Erik wrote on wikitech-l:
>I intend to edit relevant documentation and webpages
>to change the name of the software from "Phase III" to
>"MediaWiki". This is the name that Mav suggested, and
>it fits nicely together with "Wikimedia". Google shows
>that the name is unused. Any objections?

Well, my vote is a foregone conclusion, but 'Make it so!' :)

Hm. Kat suggested that only one big item should be on each press release, so
maybe we can have a separate press release announcing the name change and
talking about the software itself? Release it a week after the previous press
release and direct it toward more techy-oriented news sites. We could also
have a separate press release announcing the grand opening of the Wikimedia
Foundation website and the start of our fundraising drive (since it doesn't
look like that will be set-up by the time we hit 300,000).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [Wikitech-l] CSS

body:
I've bumped up the font size on headings a *small* amount: enough to
make the page title actually look like a page title again.

It's in CVS -- could someone put it on the test server?
After that, I'll put the body colour in CSS & make the relevant PHP change.
After *that*, I'll see about slowly tweaking the current skin. We need
to look a bit smarter in time for the 300k article announcement.
What were people's impressions of the Montparnasse skin debate? Did it
reach consensus at all?

BTW, a few weeks ago it was disucssed that several people would be
granted server access. the main motivation being that it was a cheaper
solution than paying the Raelians to clone Brion ;)
any word on this?


from_name: Arvind Narayanan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo for wikiquote

body:
Hi

I made a new logo for wikiquote: http://quote.wikipedia.org/upload/7/79/Antialiased_logo.png
It is the same as the current logo but the text is clearer.

I understand there's going to be a different, prettier logo eventually,
but I thought this could serve as a temporary replacement.

(I also made a note to that effect on Talk:Main_Page of wikiquote, but
no one seems to have noticed.)

Thanks

Arvind
--
Its all GNU to me


subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 lists at dramatic.co.nz wrote:
> > Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> > having said that, we *need* it for talk pages, otherwise it is hard to
> > follow the lines of conversation.
>
> I find it hard to follow lines of conversation on talk pages even with
> indenting.

Not to worry -- the lines of reasoning are often equally difficult to
follow... ;)

-- brion


from_name: Toby Bartels

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>If this textbook is for 10th graders and I'm going
>into 9th grade this year, should I not participate?
>--LittleDan

If you think that you know what you're doing, then do it.
That advice applies to anybody.  If you decide that
you can't help write because you don't know the material,
then make that honest judgement as anybody here should.
But if you find that you actually do know it --
and I wouldn't be surprised if that's often the case --
then go ahead!

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>For those worried that "firefighter" tends to imply
>>that a wave of newbies is a problem (a raging fire),
>>just remember that it was originally the Wikipedia "militia".

>The fires created are not the newbies themselves, but the damage a small part
>of them do (either intentional or not).

So we don't think of them as fires but rather as potential arsonists?
I don't mean to say that the term /is/ inherently insulting,
but any term that suggests that newbies may cause trouble (and they may)
will be capable of being taken the wrong way.
(I personally find "firefighter" acceptable.)

>"Guide" is still too paternal for my
>taste. In my part of the world at least, firefighters play the role of
>general emergency personell (providing extraction and medical assistance at
>car crashes and such) and only on relatively rare occasions fight actual
>fires. IMO that makes them a very positive symbol.

"Wikipedia emergency personnel"! ^_^

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] I give up

body:
RickK wrote in part:

>As it now stands, if we have both [[Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?]]
>and [[Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?]] (I don't know about the last one),
>we definitely don't need [[Where in the World/Time is Carmen Sandiego?]], but
>which one should it redirect to?

Those keeping track of everything should know that
all of these 2-day-old stubs have been deleted,
and the material is now all on [[Carmen Sandiego]].
But let's pretend that [[Where in the World/Time is Carmen Sandiego?]]
had been around for a long time and couldn't be deleted,
and let's pretend that [[Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?]]
and [[Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?]] were substantial articles
that we wanted to keep separate from just [[Carmen Sandiego]].
/Then/ where should [[Where in the World/Time is Carmen Sandiego?]] redirect?

The answer is that it shouldn't redirect to either of these.
It should instead simply redirect to [[Carmen Sandiego]],
the main article from which you could get to the others.

An alternative is to make it a disambiguation page,
but that's wise only if it's been used for a long time
and you expect people to continue to link to it by accident.
Otherwise, a redirect to [[Carmen Sandiego]] is in order.

Of course, in the present situation, where the page is 2 days old,
outright deletion should be no problem (and this was in fact done).

-- Toby


subject: [Wikitech-l] Memcached

body:
I finally got around to taking a quick look at memcached. It strikes me as
quite elegant, and ought to be fairly easy to drop in in a number of
places.  The PHP client library is GPL, and the server is BSD:

http://www.danga.com/memcached/

At the moment we don't exactly have a lot of free memory floating around
to work with, but hardware upgrades are on the horizon.

Memcached is essentially a really big associative array. :) Rather than
shared memory, clients talk to the server(s) by TCP/IP... but this means
you can tie together multiple servers (for *lots* of RAM-based storage)
and multiple clients, should we in the future end up using multiple
front-end web servers.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>--- Steve Vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Ha. "Wikipedia Emergency Medical Technicians."  JTE
>>(just to explain), I was maybe thinking the
>>firefighter thing was kind of a novelty act.  When the
>>high tide of post 911 nationalism eventually goes back
>>out to sea, the seaweed and rotting orcas left behind
>>dont usually get doused with retardant and hooked up
>>to plasma. But then again they dont get "shepherded"
>>off either. :)  I suppose shepherds have more to do --
>>firefighters  conduct their normal lives and toss foam
>>on occasion -- shephership requires devotion and
>>dedication, while firefighters only need a pager --
>>So, yeah I suppose firefighters might fit the WP
>>better.
>>
>
>Well, how about janitors? Seems to imply that not only do we take the
>trash out, we're not positioning ourselves in a position that can be
>perceived as paternal or as a figure of authority.
>
>Finally, for those who don't want to be associated with trash or dirt
>and prefer the more esteemed world of the medical profession: nurses.
>
How about '''phagocytes''' circulating thoroughout the body of Wikipedia
devouring infections?

Ec


from_name: lists at dramatic.co.nz

subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
>
>
> Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
>
>>
>>That's nicer, but it won't work in non-css browsers
>>like most text browsers.
>>
>>Any idea of doing it in a way that's both sane and
>>text-browser-compatible ?
>>
> Text indent is presentational, not structural.
> So it could be argued that it's correct for text-only and non-CSS
> browsers not to show it.
>
> having said that, we *need* it for talk pages, otherwise it is hard to
> follow the lines of conversation.

I find it hard to follow lines of conversation on talk pages even with
indenting.


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: CSS

body:
tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote in
news:3F33B155.9030103 at planetunreal.com:

[cut]
> change. After *that*, I'll see about slowly tweaking the current skin.
> We need to look a bit smarter in time for the 300k article
> announcement.
[cut]

The current default skin gives to non-technical visitors a bad impression.
The find it looks old and not proffesional.

I like the idea of very basic default look. But not al visitors do.

A option where a visitor can choose a skin can improve the way a visitor
looks at wikipedia.

The wikipedia in a nice skin also looks better on television;
http://www.ict-id.nl/wikipedia/html/wikipedia_index.html
http://www22.brinkster.com/rotemdan/phase4-demo-v1-1.htm

--
Contact: walter AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


from_name: Geoffrey Thomas

subject: [Textbook-l] Re: disappearing/reappearing column-side notes

body:
Karl Wick saith:
> Here is a technical question: in the same way that the
> table of contents feature can be opened and collapsed with
> a click  apparently wihout reloading the whole page (which
> IMHO is a very cool feature !), could we have collapseable
> notes for the edge of a document ?

We can easily use the same (or almost the same) code for hiding/showing
sidenotes as we already do for hiding/showing the table of contents.
I made a sample at

  http://www.wikipedia.org/upload/a/a2/Sidenote.html

with JavaScript code based on the wikibits.js ToC code. The changes
are to allow the ToC/note functions to operate on any ID, not tocinside,
and for the default to be hidden notes. (Hmm...one could add another
feature that allows selectable default...another parameter...and
then showTocToggle(...) could be showNoteToggle(..., 'tocinside',
true)...)

The code requires a simple one-row floating table, with one cell being
display: hidden and having an ID, and the other cell calling
showNoteToggle() instead of showTocToggle() with parameters "Show",
"Hide", and the first cell's ID. I'm sure if one really wanted that
one could use a floating div within a floating div so the [hide]
link looks like a section [edit] link and doesn't take up vertical
space.

How to put this in Wikipedia code: maybe use a <sidenote> tag.
<sidenote id="x">text</sidenote> expands to

 text

.
I don't know PHP, else I would have helped add this to the Wikipedia source.

The sample page has been tested in Mozilla 1.4 and Internet Explorer 6.0.
It fails in Opera 6.0 - but so does the ToC.

=====
-Geoffrey Thomas
geoffreyerffoeg at yahoo.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Steve Vertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Easter Bradford

body:
I had thought about this in the sense that "as long as
its factual - its ok" - Let everyone add anything
factual, even if its about themselves, so that
everyone in the world from now unto perpetuity who
wants to can have an article about themselves.I dont
think this fits the role of the encyclopedia, which
seems to be successful, like all great works, by
working within limits.

Recall Isis had her own article, in addition to her
userpage -- it was excused for a while.  In this case
insetead of a professional resume with a nun pic it
looks like a self-egratiating beginning of a bad idea.
 Is there a distinction being made as far as calber
/rank in society, etc.. goes?  It seems that there can
legitimately be a rule that says you cant be both a
contributor and a feature, but is this enforceable?
Eugh.

-S-

--- Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> wrote:
>
> > To me there's a certain unsavory braggadocio
> involved in
> > proclaiming
> > oneself to be worthy of an encyclopedia article.
>
> Of course, one could argue that you're not relying
> on second-hand
> information.
>
> Generally, though, I agree with you.
>
> =====
> Christopher Mahan
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> 818.943.1850 cell
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
--- Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 lists at dramatic.co.nz wrote:
> > > Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> > > having said that, we *need* it for talk pages,
> otherwise it is hard to
> > > follow the lines of conversation.
> >
> > I find it hard to follow lines of conversation on
> talk pages even with
> > indenting.
>
> Not to worry -- the lines of reasoning are often
> equally difficult to
> follow... ;)
>
> -- brion

Haha. But maybe flaws in expression and reason are
attributable to flaws in the technology, not the
intellect-- eh?  'Blame the equipment' in other
words.:)

-S-

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

>On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 06:26:42PM -0700, Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
>
>
>>...and for the default to be hidden notes.
>>
>>
>
>Hold on a second. Such a default makes sidenotes completely unavailable for
>text browsers, not ?
>
Or any browser that knows CSS but not JavaScript (or has JavaScript
disabled!).

Simplest way around that is to do the hiding in the page's onLoad event
handler; the JavaScript-less or CSS-less will see the things always,
which is probably better than never.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: CSS

body:
Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote
in news:3F33EFAA.7060803 at telus.net:

> Walter Vermeir wrote:
>
>>tarquin wrote

>>
>>A option where a visitor can choose a skin can improve the way a
>>visitor looks at wikipedia.
>>
> There is something fundamentally illogical about this.  For a visitor
> to be able to change the skin he needs to know something about our
> "preferences".  By the time he knows enough to make that change he is
> no longer just a visitor

That is the point. To provide a option, like a pulldown menu, on the
mainpage where you can select a skin whitout the need to make a account. It
is not logical that a reader needs to make a account to be abel to do this.

Or a url that can be used to select a skin for a visitor. So there is no
need for a menu on all wikipedia's a and those who like it can put a
"select a skin" on the page.

--
Contact: walter AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Server problems, James -- Watchlists traditionally
have been a little too weighty on the server to let
them run willy nilly anymore.  As I understand it --
its only temporary until more usable customization can
be added -- and regardless its nothing to get all up
in bunches about. :)

-S-

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
james duffy wrote:

>> I've set the default cutoff to one hour
>
>
> That is driving me MAD!!! WHY???

Because it's MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH faster than a longer cutoff, and
it's fairly convenient to click now and again during the course of a day.

> The only reason I use my watchlist is when I log on after being off
> for 10 of 15 hours to see what pages I am interested in have been
> worked on in my absence by others. Instead I end up being told what
> was worked on in the last hour, which I can see from the blooming
> Recent Changes anyway! I end up having to do a second watchlist search
> having reset the perameters. An hour-long search is worse than useless.

Oh, well in that case I should just yank the watchlist feature entirely? ;)

If it bugs you that much, bookmark a more convenient time and click your
bookmark when you need it. Most browsers will even let you put such a
bookmark in a big convenient toolbar.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] definition lists

body:
On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 06:33:59PM +0200, Lars Aronsson wrote:
> Hi Tomasz,
>
> >

 Triple indent
> > Any idea to do it in a saner way ?
>
> Five   for every colon.
>
> HTML sucks.

No, it will not work at all.

:Foo bar buzz. Ala ma kota. Siala baba mak, nie wiedziala jak.

With blockquote:

     Foo bar buzz. Ala ma kota.
     Siala baba mak, nie
     wiedziala jak.

With  s:

     Foo bar buzz. Ala ma kota.
Siala baba mak, nie wiedziala
jak.


subject: [Wikitech-l] I-E math function error

body:
On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 07:46:36AM -0600, Fred Bauder wrote:
> When I try to run a page that has the <math> function I get this error.
>
> from within function "renderMath". MySQL returned error "1054: Unknown
> column 'math_conservative' in 'field list'".
>
> This is mysterious because the current create db asks you to create this:
>
> mysql> show columns from math;
> +----------------------------+-------------+------+-----+---------+-------+
> | Field                      | Type        | Null | Key | Default | Extra |
> +----------------------------+-------------+------+-----+---------+-------+
> | math_inputhash             | varchar(16) |      | PRI |         |       |
> | math_outputhash            | varchar(16) |      |     |         |       |
> | math_html_conservativeness | tinyint(1)  |      |     | 0       |       |
> | math_html                  | text        | YES  |     | NULL    |       |
> | math_mathml                | text        | YES  |     | NULL    |       |
> +----------------------------+-------------+------+-----+---------+-------+

Old schema used math_conservative (yes/no field), new
uses math_html_conservativeness (with 3 levels). Check if you aren't
mixing code. It's all in PHP not Ocaml.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Rumor has it that there are actually people who use Wikipedia only for a
>limited time each day; in fact, I have heard (as of yet entirely
>unsubstantiated) claims that some people do not even use Wikipedia each
>and every day.
>
These people probably have shorter watchlists, which are not subject to
the 1-hour default cutoff for long watchlists.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikitech-l] RE: CSS

body:
I have been arguing in the past about the oversized fonts, especially
the headers. Well I found out something:

I am probably one of the few people that sees the English Wikipedia in
such a large font size. I use MSIE, default settings (medium text, which
suits me fine on most sites), but I use font Arial Unicode MS , this is
a huge (50 Mb) unicode font that shows most foreign languages well.
Microsoft only supplies it with its Office Suite. I installed it
specifically to be able to render other Wp's at their best. Now it turns
out that this font uses a larger point size for medium text (about 15%
larger than Arial). So this explains why I was bothered more than
others.

People on unicode Wikipedias are more likely to have deviated from MSIE
default fonts. I think this is yet another argument why it would be nice
to have user defined skins (without CVS or sysop intervention), people
could pick their favourite from a list of uploaded skins, e.g. sorted by
popularity.

Erik Zachte


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikitech-l digest, Vol 1 #684 - 17 msgs

body:
Brion Vibber saith:
>On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Erik Moeller wrote:
>> I intend to edit relevant documentation and webpages to change the name of
>> the software from "Phase III" to "MediaWiki". This is the name that Mav
>> suggested, and it fits nicely together with "Wikimedia". Google shows that
>> the name is unused. Any objections?
>
>Sounds nice, and less likely to send crowds of confused protesters after
>us than "PediaWiki". ;)

What exactly was the history of PediaWiki? I've seen that name occasionally...
mostly in outdated pages. I understand it was the original name of the
software, but...why was it called that?

And MediaWiki intuitively sounds like software for editable multimedia -
something where people can edit sounds and movies online, etc. Wikimedia
sounds like a corporation (which is OK since it's a foundation) but a MediaWiki
is (to me) a Wiki for multimedia. There's no real "editing" of pictures/sounds -
you can replace old media with new...but that's not really a Wiki: Wikis need
editing abilities, else anonymous FTP to an HTTP-served directory could be
called a Wiki.

Why do we need to _rename_ Phase III? Keep that for the name for Phase IV,
which meta's Main Page used to say was a temporary name (probably still does...)

=====
-Geoffrey Thomas
geoffreyerffoeg at yahoo.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Daniel-
>
>>Hm. Kat suggested that only one big item should be on each press release, so
>>maybe we can have a separate press release announcing the name change and
>>talking about the software itself?
>>
>I disagree with this. But I think that the 300K milestone should not be
>the headline of the press release -- just mentioned in the first
>paragraph. The headline should be something like "Wikipedia goes non-
>profit, launches new projects".
>
No.  We aren't '''going''' non-profit; we always have been.  What
exactly does saying that we are going non-profit accomplish?
 Incorporating Wikimedia is an administrative action which probably
doesn't mean much to the general public.

As for publicity for "launching new projects", I don't think that
accomplishes very much either.  The other projects are mostly at an
experimental stage, and as much as they may welcome new contributors a
sudden influx of inexperienced people there could have unpredictable
effects.

Stressing that we have a quarter million articles appeals to the
bandwagon effect.  Remarking about our competitive position in relation
to other on-line encyclopedias makes sense because because it draws
people into a competition where they can feel a part of the winning
team.  Being mentioned by CNN means something; being high rated by Alexa
is noteworthy; having a news article say, "These guys know their stuff,"
says something about our credibility.

Even more important is stressing our core principles of NPOV and making
knowledge broadly and freely available to everybody.  Stressing also
that participants can share the responsibility of safeguarding those
core principles is a further strength.

I think that Wikimedia is a far more dynamic creation than one that
merely trots out the same old unbelievable humdrum platitudes about
being non-profit or purveying new products.

Ec


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Hi,

I intend to edit relevant documentation and webpages to change the name of
the software from "Phase III" to "MediaWiki". This is the name that Mav
suggested, and it fits nicely together with "Wikimedia". Google shows that
the name is unused. Any objections?

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Alas, some of these wretched souls have ended up with rather large
>watchlists due to my "Watch articles by default" feature, so the 1 hour
>cutoff on large watchlists threatens their salvation.
>
I often wondered about the wisdom of that feature.  I had it on when it
was first introduced, and found that I was accumulating a list of
articles in which I had made only minor spelling corrections.  If a
person really wants to watch an article they should need to make the
positive effort of activating it.

I d like the feature that shows how many articles are on the list.  My
list currently has a humble 116 articles, but I do make a point of
weeding out articles that I no longer want to watch.

Ec


from_name: Jason Richey

subject: [Wikitech-l] good news/bad news

body:
Good news:

I went to see the servers this evening, after a trip to Fry's.  I
bought a new hard drive (36 Gig U320 SCSI 80-pin) for Pliny's DB and 1
more Gig of RAM for Larousse (that's the best Fry's could do).

Bad news:

Only the RAM got installed.  It turns out that the setup in Pliny
(unlike every other server in our cage) uses 68-pin SCSI drives.  So,
my purchase was incorrect.

Summary:

Larousse has 2 Gig of RAM (PC133 SDRAM), 1 Gig more than before.

Pliny is the same old machine.

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


body:
Geoffrey Thomas wrote:

>Why do we need to _rename_ Phase III? Keep that for the name for Phase IV,
>which meta's Main Page used to say was a temporary name (probably still does...)
>
My sentiments too.  I don't see the need for a cutesy name for something
that is only software.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>>How about '''phagocytes''' circulating thoroughout the body of
>>Wikipedia
>>devouring infections?
>>
>
>Nice... Except, what's a phagocyte? Wikipedia Antibiotics?
>
See http://press2.nci.nih.gov/sciencebehind/immune/immune17.htm

Ec