subject: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic again (bugs, bugs, bugs...)

body:
That would actually work.

Though I don't see why a developer can't just take care of it. It's
been a really long time now, and os.wikipedia has plenty of users and
articles, yet _interwiki links to and from it don't work_.

Mark

On 25/04/05, V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> A way out may be manual addition of the actual language codes list
> into the Ossetic WP. It will solve the interwiki problems on our side.
>
> It'd be also great if somebody add the code for "os" to, at least, the
> most culturally important for Ossetians WPs such as ru, ka, tr, fa,
> cv, tt and probably en, de, eo.
>
> Rgrds,
> Sl.
>
> On 4/23/05, V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello there,
> >
> > The other example of the misfunctioning interwiki links can be found
> > at http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D1%8B%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B3_%D0%B0%D0%B4%C3%A6%D0%BC
> > ?D all the interwikies _from_ the Ossetic WP to older WPs do work,
> > while the interwiki to cv: (created in December 2004 or so) is the red
> > part of the article.
> >
> > How can we change all that? Feeling ourselves a somewhat outer project
> > with no links to the "main WP" is really weird.
> > E. g. now we have a really cute article
> > http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/??????????????_?????????? translated into Russian,
> > German and Esperanto. We would like to propose it for the "Translation
> > of the Week" as soon as we have the well-structured English version.
> > But how can we do that, if no interwiki links to the Ossetic articles
> > can exist?!..
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Slavik Ivanov
> >
> > --
> > Esperu cxiam!
> > http://os.wikipedia.org/
> > http://e-novosti.info/forumo/
> >
>
> --
> Esperu cxiam!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fact check/Copyediting request

body:
> In my experience, given enough time all articles on Wikipedia grow; some
> just take longer than others.
>
> Geoff

To add to that: [[Wikipedia:Peer Review]] is a way to get some feedback.

Charles


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Anyhow back to my point. Wikipedia is somehow related to Bomis
>historically, right? This is a well-established fact, no? It says it
>pretty much everywhere.
>
>Jimbo himself admits that Bomis deals in porn (although it accounts
>for less than 10% of their revenue).
>
>Thus, I don't see where he gets the idea that the things people are
>saying are wrong. And why did he just say "you're wrong" instead of
>explaining, even after Ant asked him for an explanation? He has sent
>me increasingly rude private e-mails as well rather than discuss it
>calmly on the list.
>
One needs to make a distinction between the historical past and its
consequences.

I have no personal knowledge of the underlying facts, but for the sake
of argument I'm willing to accept that what you say is all true.  It
then comes down to a matter of "So what?"

At the rate you're going we shouldn't be recognizing Australia as a
country because it was established by convicts.

Ec


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jaap van Ganswijk

subject: [Wikitech-l] Why does wikipedia need activeX?

body:
Hi,

I have disabled ActiveX plugins and controls
in my IE-browser (due to the large amount of
self-installing spy-ware etc. and when I go
to wikipedia sites like:

http://de.wikipedia.org/
http://nl.wikipedia.org/

I get a popup window with 'Do you want to allow
software such as ActiveX controls and plug-ins
to run?'

This mainly seems to be necessary to show the
top left logo to be shown.

Wouldn't it be better for an open source standards
based site not to require MS-dependent technology?

Greetings,
Jaap


from_name: Nicolay A. Vasiliev

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki with PHP5

body:
Hello there!

Does MediaWiki work correctly with PHP5?

TIA


from_name: Mathias Schindler

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>>I get a popup window with 'Do you want to allow
>>software such as ActiveX controls and plug-ins
>>to run?'

> This isn't required by the site. I suggest you run a thorough spyware and
> antivirus check again. And stop using IE for anything as far as
> possible.

I would like to point your attention to "such as".

This is a wild guess but I remember my MSIE to rely on external plug-ins
to display png files properly. This would fit under the MSIE-question above.

Mathias


from_name: suresh.k.kadirvel at gsk.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] Mediawiki on port other than 3306 of MySQL

body:
Hi,

Thanks a lot for replies and suggestions for my earlier queries. (1.
Transfer parameters  between pages and 2. Template usage).

I have another question which might have been answered by this group
already.

Basically, I would like to setup the mediawiki against MySQL using a non
default port (other than 3306)
Is it trivial to just to mention the port number along with the MySQL
server ip address during setup or more to it ??
If so, please advice.

Thanks,
Suresh


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test wiki

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Phil Boswell wrote:
>> Liking the new features, but the account creation totally boggled me. I
>> entered my name, and my favourite "temporary" password, and clicked
>> "Create
>> new account". Without warning me, it sent me an email with a *new*
>> password.
>>
>> The confusing thing is that it would seem that the system remembered the
>> password I had entered previously, so when I tried to change it from the
>> gash password from the email, it complained...I only found out by
>> trial and
>> error that my original password was operational.
>>
>> Is this actually a change in policy or is this just how the test
>> system is
>> set up?
>
>
> It's supposed to be an e-mail verification system, but it's pretty badly
> broken and needs to be replaced with one that actually works in a
> reasonable manner.

I've cleaned it up a bit to separate the email confirmation token from
the login password, as well as some general code cleanup backing that.

The user table has changed a bit, so those of you tracking CVS HEAD be
sure to run update.php.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
At 2005-04-25 11:10, Mathias Schindler wrote:
>David Gerard wrote:
>>>I get a popup window with 'Do you want to allow
>>>software such as ActiveX controls and plug-ins
>>>to run?'
>
>>This isn't required by the site. I suggest you run a thorough spyware and
>>antivirus check again. And stop using IE for anything as far as
>>possible.
>
>I would like to point your attention to "such as".
>
>This is a wild guess but I remember my MSIE to rely on external plug-ins to display png files properly. This would fit under the MSIE-question above.

Oops, you and Brion Vibber seem to be right!
Again Bill Gates pulled one over on me...

Brion: As regards installing other browsers:
I have always been a big Netscape fan, but
when MSIE had won the browser battle (for
the time being) I stopped torturing myself
after a while and started using IE as the
default browser under Windows. I have a lot
of browsers installed under Windows (Mozilla,
Netscape, Opera) and under Linux (KDE and
Mozilla and probably more).

When I write code myself I try to make it as
simple and cross-browser usable as possible
but I don't like wasting time seeing sites
other than intended just because the writers
don't use standards.

And if I had the illusion that I could change
the world by using a more open source browser
I certainly would...

Greetings,
Jaap


list: foundation-l

from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: guarding a wiki

body:
In regards to adopting a wiki, I'll adopt the Gothic wiki.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Walter Vermeir
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 7:23 PM
To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: guarding a wiki

Walter van Kalken schreef:
> If every active member takes one "dead" wiki under his/her guide by
> guarding it (and having sysop rights to delete trash) against spam and
> immediately greating and talking to newcomers. Than we do not have to
> lock inactive wikis! Just a check once every two or three days suffices
> like I do at Laotian. You do not really have to speak the language.
>
> Walter/Waerth

Yes, I have done this for the Frisian Wikipedia. Now it is small but
active. There can be made a list of Wikipedias to put up for adoption.
This is the best way to get a dead wiki active.

Walter /Walter

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: guarding a wiki


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Date Formats

body:
Hello all,

            I was wondering if it were possible to have a user account
setting where I set the date to either mm-dd-yyyy or dd/mm/yyyy, and the
dates within articles show up that way across the wiki.  Some prefer one
way, others prefer the other way.

Thanks,

James


body:
Maybe they'll add an article about Transformers: Energon at some point...or
Optimus Prime, or Panera Bread, or...

Oh, wait.  That's why I use wikipedia.  Better chance of finding the article
I want.  And if not, I'll make it myself.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Magnus Manske
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 8:28 PM
To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

You can mow add to Encarta articles online. After a review by the M$
staff, your edit may be added to the Encarta.

That's so great about Microsoft - they alway invent new things! :-)

http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/04/08/1658247.shtml?tid=109&tid
=95&tid=8

Magnus
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCVs0eCZKBJbEFcz0RApfKAJ9mKxwBxmmTl30y1kfeKOXyhhELWACdFhTw
tWg+rfeTHa7aCEWHfuifrwY=
=5pHl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Distributing fonts

body:
In internet explorer, you can force the browser to display a certain font
without having it on the user's computer.  It's somewhere in the HTML code,
but I could never figure that part out. :(

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Saratxaga
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 11:37 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Distributing fonts

Kaixo!

On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:30:51PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:

> If we have a free TTF file to download from the web somewhere, link's
> fine. If not, I see no reason *not* to upload and offer one. Sure
> haven't heard one in the previous postings.

Ah, that is quite a different thing.

However, it would still be better to put it somewhere else (along other
fonts for example; that would reach more people)

> Come on, where's the problem? We're offering 4-5 *GB* with pictures to
> download for en already. And you say we're not equipped to serve a
> single TTF file?

I had read it as if the idea was to frentically upload all kind of fonts
available.
Indeed one font is not very much; but the real point is that it is not
the right place.
The images are big, but they illustrate the articles; they are part of
the information in the articles.

A font, I don't see how it could be a part of the article (a font file
cannot be directly usable from the web pages; it has to be downloaded
and installed first; that is different to images, sound and video that
can be directly seen/heard).

A font file could be a part of the article of an article about
typography or computer typography; but as it won't be directly usable
from the web browser, probably it would be useless anyway.

Another thing would be a font like a tool to create the infrastructure
(eg, to standardize on the typography of the logos etc); such
font-as-a-tool could indeed have its place in meta:

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID:
0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or
Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Distributing fonts

body:
Maybe if the wikipedia were to offer the fonts necessary for the wikipedia
to display properly, then that would solve the problem.  That would be much
easier, especially on certain files (Gothic language) that require a font,
but each time I downloaded that font, it crashed my system.  With the wiki
community, I'd more likely trust the resulting stored font to not crash my
computer.  But becoming a font repository is beside the point of the wiki.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Saratxaga
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 11:37 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Distributing fonts

Kaixo!

On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 10:30:51PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:

> If we have a free TTF file to download from the web somewhere, link's
> fine. If not, I see no reason *not* to upload and offer one. Sure
> haven't heard one in the previous postings.

Ah, that is quite a different thing.

However, it would still be better to put it somewhere else (along other
fonts for example; that would reach more people)

> Come on, where's the problem? We're offering 4-5 *GB* with pictures to
> download for en already. And you say we're not equipped to serve a
> single TTF file?

I had read it as if the idea was to frentically upload all kind of fonts
available.
Indeed one font is not very much; but the real point is that it is not
the right place.
The images are big, but they illustrate the articles; they are part of
the information in the articles.

A font, I don't see how it could be a part of the article (a font file
cannot be directly usable from the web pages; it has to be downloaded
and installed first; that is different to images, sound and video that
can be directly seen/heard).

A font file could be a part of the article of an article about
typography or computer typography; but as it won't be directly usable
from the web browser, probably it would be useless anyway.

Another thing would be a font like a tool to create the infrastructure
(eg, to standardize on the typography of the logos etc); such
font-as-a-tool could indeed have its place in meta:

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID:
0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or
Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]


from_name: John Bradley

subject: [WikiEN-l] It is a sign.

body:
Of you lack of social abilities and generally anti-social nature that as soon
as anything effects you composure you start barring people. In effect this
shows your overall lack of maturity and you high levels of insecurity.

If you actually had the scoial abilities you think I lack you would have coped
in who different way, but then you lot are basically Eight year old little
madams and school prefects, and like you did long ago. You think you
particular form of childishness is actually very grown up.
		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I am against what I do being singled out. The information will be available
under the User Contributions list anyway.

If I was trying for victimhood, I'd be a lot quieter.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:18:06 -0400
From:           	Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 07:12:19PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> > Note the manipulative use of language by Chad.
> > Note that he expand my comments to cover everyone on the list.
> > Note his misrepresentation of my POV.
> >
>
> Note your ongoing attempt to alienate everyone.
>
> If something was misrepresented, it was by accident.  Perhaps you would
> find it more productive to educate people in their errors, rather than
> to simply accuse them of being malicious.
>
> By the way, playing the "victim card" tends to reduce sympathy in one's
> position rather than increase it, at least among people whose sympathy
> is worth anything.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I don't count defending myself as involvment the kind of involment in the
community that is being talked about.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:10:47 -0400
From:           	Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 07:08:58PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> > On the contrary, I have every reason to be here on this list. to deal with
> > dishonest people like Violet and Matt. It is others on this system who have
> > no reason to be here, as they are not interested in producing an
> > encyclopedia but a social club for the inadequate.
> >
>
> I thought you said you wanted to avoid community involvement so that you
> wouldn't have to "deal with" such people.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Page delete request.

body:
and how will not stop the document from being there or me from knowing
that it is there will it.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:44:58 -0700 (PDT)
From:           	Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Page delete request.
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley wrote:
> > So in other words I do have to put up with it.
>
> You don't have to put up with anything.  You can find
> other projects to work on.
>
> RickK
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


body:
Matt,

Just because you read bad things into everything doesn't mean it is actually
what is going on, I'am justpointing out the powerlessness of arbcomm in the
real world and why they are so tetchy.

You have all the answers you've needed you even seemed to have got it at
one point but you'd forgetten in 10 secs.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:24:34 +0100 (BST)
From:           	Matt R <matt_crypto at yahoo.co.uk>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	[WikiEN-l] Bradley, his contribs list,
	and feeding the "problem user"
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> Hi list,
>
> --- John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> > I would like to request the following page be deleted
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> > things I have created.
>
> Not quite. This page is a list of the pages [[User:Irate]] (aka John Bradley)
> edited (in his last 500 edits) before he was banned. I created it [1] to keep
> an eye out in case he attempted to circumvent his ban (using the "related
> changes" tool, of course). I have some evidence this vigilence may be
> necessary; Bradley has said on this mailing list:
>
>    "I have started the WLF and the PFLW in an attempt to reverse the
> perversion of the system introduced by the ArbComm and various admins.
> Who are basically so up tight because they have a very limited ability to
> control Wikipedia, what with DHCP etc."
>
> And more explicitly in private email to myself:
>
>    "As I've said before to the arbcomm they do not have the ability to block
> me,
> as I currently via the company VPN have 10+ IP access points on 3 continents. I
> also have access to a spell checker."
>
> Currently, I have no intention of deleting this page, although I might consider
> it if someone (other than Bradley, of course) asked me politely.
>
> My advice to everyone is simply to ignore this user. I've had no luck engaging
> him even after exchanging several emails. You're welcome to try, of course, but
> I believe you'd be wasting your time in his case. He's banned for three months,
> so he's not a current problem.
>
> -- Matt
> [[User:Matt Crypto]]
>
> [1] Don't worry, 5 minutes with a script -- not by hand!
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Aphaia

subject: [Foundation-l] Important AND urgent

body:
So ...

On 4/23/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> eheh, wikipedia strength.
>
> Anyway, thanks to Saforrest, Mark Ryan, Sj and anon.

some questions (silly)
1) Now Commons is nominated - successfully?
2) If so, is it too early to inform in other places, like
meta:Wikimedia News, at "Latest news" on WMF Home, or Wikimedia:Our
projects?

Since no information is available, I am afraid I missed some points,
or if there is a sort of cabalish secret we couldn't refer to it on
those places ...

--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


subject: [Foundation-l] Important AND urgent


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki with PHP5

body:
What is an approximate date when it will be done?

Brion Vibber wrote:

> Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:
>
>> Hello there!
>>
>> Does MediaWiki work correctly with PHP5?
>
>
> There is one bug in 1.4.2 which may sometimes break Recentchanges. The
> fix will be in the 1.4.3 bugfix release, or you can patch it in:
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-cvs/2005-April/007947.html


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
It's quite different than your Australia example actually.

I have acknowledged that it makes no particular difference to me
either way, but as I said I favour a policy of full disclosure.

The biggest difference is is that Australia is recognised by most
Australians even to have been founded by convicts and those who worked
to support the prison system, while Jimbo steadfastly denies what I
have said.

He has told me how shocked he is that I'd say something like that, how
wrong I am, how I shouldn't say things when I don't know what I'm
talking about, and has even said that I have accused him publicly of
being a pornographer.

Yet, while telling me how wrong I am and that I don't know what I'm
talking about, and how he's shocked that I would say such things, he
quietly sits not divulging exactly how it's wrong and what the right
version is, and until such time as he does so I see no reason to not
tell people the same old story over and over - without an explanation,
why should I believe that what he says is real? As I said before there
is an undeniable connection that Jimbo seems to want to deny: Bomis
sells porn (although it gets "less than 10%" of its revenue from it),
and Bomis was involved in the beginning of Wikipedia. That doesn't
mean Wikipedia is a pornographic encyclopedia, or an encyclopedia of
porn, or an encyclopedia founded by pornographers and supported mostly
by money from porn sales - all it means is just that: the company that
was the primary involved party in the beginning of Wikipedia, and in
which Jimmy Wales still plays a large part, does have a "premium"
website where it sells access to pornographic images. That doesn't
mean anything about the objectivity of Wikipedia, on the contrary
Wikipedia (at least en:) seems to be turning into Wikipedia - The
Prudish Encyclopedia.

Mark

On 25/04/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Anyhow back to my point. Wikipedia is somehow related to Bomis
> >historically, right? This is a well-established fact, no? It says it
> >pretty much everywhere.
> >
> >Jimbo himself admits that Bomis deals in porn (although it accounts
> >for less than 10% of their revenue).
> >
> >Thus, I don't see where he gets the idea that the things people are
> >saying are wrong. And why did he just say "you're wrong" instead of
> >explaining, even after Ant asked him for an explanation? He has sent
> >me increasingly rude private e-mails as well rather than discuss it
> >calmly on the list.
> >
> One needs to make a distinction between the historical past and its
> consequences.
>
> I have no personal knowledge of the underlying facts, but for the sake
> of argument I'm willing to accept that what you say is all true.  It
> then comes down to a matter of "So what?"
>
> At the rate you're going we shouldn't be recognizing Australia as a
> country because it was established by convicts.
>
> Ec
>
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Conference report from South Africa

body:
I am guessing that at least a couple of those who attended the
conference were native or fluent speakers of some of South Africa's
_other_ official languages.

Do these people know that we have Wikipedias in their mother tongue? I
somehow doubt it. If they do know, do they care? I know that there are
some people who don't care about the Wikipedia in their mother tongue,
but most people I have told said they didn't know and went to work on
it right away.

It seems to me that African-language localisation is an important part
of open-content and open-source in South Africa (see translate.co.za
), yet very few of these people seem to know about these Wikipedias.

In fact, I did a spot check, and it seems that many of the
contributors to the Afrikaans Wikipedia are South Africans with Zulu,
Xhosa, etc names and in some cases obviously speak one of these
languages (User:Alias, for example, has contributed a little bit to
the Zulu Wikipedia; others have heavily edited articles on what might
be their mother tongue, or say it on their userpage). I suspect the
reason for involvement with the Afrikaans Wikipedia only rather than
their mother tongue(s) is that the Afrikaans Wikipedia is still
relatively small, but I'm sure at least some of the people at the
conference or the Afrikaans Wikipedia would edit these Wikipedias if
they knwe bout them, but they don't.

Mark

On 25/04/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Ronald Chmara wrote:
>
> > On Apr 25, 2005, at 5:26 AM, Andy Rabagliati wrote:
> >
> >> There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
> >> * Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like
> >> CamelCase :-)
> >> * Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
> >>   someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)
> >
> > Wikipedia is not paper. Or one tape deck.
> >
> > Thus, one word, say "aluminium" could have several pronunciation entries.
>
> That only helps the person using the term.  It's a one-way feature.  The
> person hearing the term used in another dialect will still have no idea
> what is being said.  How can he transcribe anything which is
> unintelligible to him?
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: scott neuman

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jimbo Wales Speaking at Harvard Law School Today

body:
Jimbo will be appearing at a cyberlaw talk at Harvard Law School today at
4:30pm ET.

My hope, with the help of several other students, is to stream his
discussion. Shortly before 4:30, we will post a link to the stream and Q&A
related to his talk at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Jimbo_Wales_discussion_at_Harvard_Law
_School%2C_April_25%2C_2005

My apologies if this announcement wasn't posted to the proper mailing list.
I'm just trying to get the word out.

Best,

Scott


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
> I am quite confident that he will explain it to me one day, perhaps in
> France in front of a beer this summer. I am preparing the grass (mostly
> weeds actually) and the flowers (these are neat) and the outside
> wood-table (this one is perfect now) so that the environnement is good
> for talking of such things.

I have no trouble imagining the scene except for one jarring detail --
beer?!?  A conversation over a wooden table in a French pastoral
setting may include vin ordinaire, sure; un petit caf?, certainly; but
beer is all wrong for that mise en sc?ne.

Please correct this detail in your final draft.

--
 Sean Barrett     | Pretentious ... moi?
 sean at epoptic.com |


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] OTRS problem

body:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 06:17:46AM -0400, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> The board queue is overwhelmed with SPAM.  Would it be possible to
> route mail to the otrs board queue through spamassassin first, with the
> parameters set fairly aggressively?
>
> The ideal solution might involve an autoresponder as well.  If Spam
> assassin thinks something to that queue is spam, we autorespond to warn
> the person that we've discarded it and please try again (perhaps by
> sending it directly to me with wikipedia in the subject line for example).

We have a spam filter already, I'll tune it to catch those messages.

	Regards,

		JeLuF


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test wiki

body:
"Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com> wrote in message
news:42682239.6000504 at pobox.com...
> I've got a 1.5 test wiki now up for you kind folks to use and abuse:

I'm getting the old "New Messages" message won't go away blues...I've tried
null edits to my talk page, I've tried real edits...waaah!
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Date Formats

body:
"Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com> wrote in
message news:426CC670.6050103 at pobox.com...
> James R. Johnson wrote:
> >             I was wondering if it were possible to have a user account
> > setting where I set the date to either mm-dd-yyyy or dd/mm/yyyy, and the
> > dates within articles show up that way across the wiki.  Some prefer one
> > way, others prefer the other way.
> Go to your preferences, click the "Date format" tab, and select your
> preferred format.

Always bearing in mind that this will only work for *linked* dates.

See here for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Dates

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Jama Poulsen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikicompany.org - a free business directory

body:
I'd like to announce a new mediawiki-based project called Wikicompany:

http://www.wikicompany.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikicompany)

The goal is to create a community built, worldwide, business directory,
licensed under the GNU FDL license (with some exceptions for images).

More can be read in the Wikicompany introduction page:
  http://wikicompany.org/wiki/Wikicompany:Wikicompany

Currently I'm working to get all the Wikipedia company articles into
Wikicompany. Most of the European articles are now inserted.

There are already some articles on Wikicompany which aren't in WP, and
over time this will increase, as most companies in the world are not
really encyclopedia worthy. I hope there can be a healthy symbiosis between
the company articles on WP and those on Wikicompany.

Comments and remarks are welcome on the Wikicompany mailing list
(https://lists.wikicompany.org/listinfo/wikicompany-list) or on
on the Wiki (eg. at: http://wikicompany.org/wiki/Wikicompany:Ideas)

File downloads (including DB dumps) will be made available on:
http://debianlinux.net/wikicompany/

regards,

Jama Poulsen


subject: [Wikitech-l] OTRS problem

body:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Jens Frank wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 06:17:46AM -0400, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > The board queue is overwhelmed with SPAM.  Would it be possible to
> > route mail to the otrs board queue through spamassassin first, with the
> > parameters set fairly aggressively?
> >
> > The ideal solution might involve an autoresponder as well.  If Spam
> > assassin thinks something to that queue is spam, we autorespond to warn
> > the person that we've discarded it and please try again (perhaps by
> > sending it directly to me with wikipedia in the subject line for example).
>
> We have a spam filter already, I'll tune it to catch those messages.
>

I checked some queues and found that spam is moved manually to the
"Probably Spam" queue. Please don't.

Incoming mail is run through spamassassin. If it is considered spam,
it is tagged as "----SPAM----" in the subject. It is still forwarded
to OTRS. There, a job runs every 5 minutes and moves mail marked as
----SPAM---- to the "Probably Spam" queue. You don't need to handle
these mails, just ignore them.

Spam that is not caught by spamassassin should be moved to the "Junk"
queue. I frequently check that queue and train spamassassin's bayesian
filter using the mails in there.

Mail in the "Probably Spam" and "Junk" queues gets deleted after 1 week.

In the last week, 230 Mails were automatically marked as "Spam", 30 were
sent to "Junk".

Regards,

	jens


from_name: Andy Rabagliati

body:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Timwi wrote:

> Angela wrote:
> >
> >     * Spoken Wikipedia by cell phone.
>
> Heh! All the more incentive to get more people to participate in
> [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia]] (shameless plug)! Nobody
> really wants machine-generated spoken versions when a real human-spoken
> version is available. :)

There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-

* Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like CamelCase :-)

* Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
  someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)

Transcription, and machine-generated, please ?

> This is assuming that the larger part of the cost of textbooks is
> copyright licenses. I would imagine that it is instead the production
> costs of actual books, and obviously free content won't help that.

Having had (almost) direct experience of this in Africa, much of the
problem is bureaucracy and supply.

Cheers,    Andy!


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Another reason not to say the p-word: It will invoke the wrath of
> Jimmy Wales

Ah, yes, the dreaded and legendary wrath of Jimbo.

--Jimbo


body:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Jimbo_Wales_discussion_at_Harvard_Law_School%2C_April_25%2C_2005

(corrected link)


subject: [WikiEN-l] It is a sign.

body:
What personal attacks have I made because I have been repremanded?
My disgust strtches far further back than that.

It also yet again seems that I what I have done is a personall attack then so
is everyones critisms of me. another example of 1 rule for the arbcommas.

My request for a page to be deleted was not spam, that several people
have decided to use it as an opportunity to rake over the coals is not my
problem.

Date sent:      	Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:45:34 +0930
From:           	Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] It is a sign.
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley wrote:
>
> >Of you lack of social abilities and generally anti-social nature that as soon
> >as anything effects you composure you start barring people. In effect this
> >shows your overall lack of maturity and you high levels of insecurity.
> >
> >
> >
> It shows something of _your_ social skills, maturity and level of
> insecurity when you make personal attacks because you were reprimanded
> *for breaking the rules*. Please stop this - the mailing list archive is
> full enough as it is.
>
> >If you actually had the scoial abilities you think I lack you would have coped
> >in who different way, but then you lot are basically Eight year old little
> >madams and school prefects, and like you did long ago. You think you
> >particular form of childishness is actually very grown up.
> >
> >
> Maybe you'd better use that spell checker you keep threatening the
> mailing list with ;)
>
> >		Yours
> >
> >		John Bradley
> >[snip]
> >
> >
> >
> Is it really such a good idea to keep plastering your address all over
> the internet? Now stop spamming and get back to whatever it is you do.
>
> --
> Alphax
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Ronald Chmara wrote:

>
> On Apr 25, 2005, at 5:26 AM, Andy Rabagliati wrote:
>
>> There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
>> * Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like
>> CamelCase :-)
>> * Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
>>   someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)
>
>
> Wikipedia is not paper. Or one tape deck.
>
> Thus, one word, say "aluminium" could have several pronunciation entries.
>
> -Bop

Hoi,
For Wiktionary we want MANY pronunciations. The word aluminium can be
found as http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nl-aluminium.ogg on
Commons. This is the Dutch pronunciation. There are more language that
spell aluminium ( http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/aluminium ). Because of
a naming convention, I do welcome all pronunciations for this word. It
would take someone from Great Britain to do an en-en-aluminium.ogg
file.. A soundfile with fr da no and sv would also be very much appreciated.

If we want to have the pronunciations of all words Geordie, we only need
to establish a naming convention for it and stick to it. Nothing major,
no rocket technology.. It is not difficult, we have a solution :)

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki with PHP5

body:
After I downloaded last version of MediaWiki I didn't see there
something like mysqli_... functions. How it works with mysql?

Brion Vibber wrote:

> Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:
>
>> Hello there!
>>
>> Does MediaWiki work correctly with PHP5?
>
>
> There is one bug in 1.4.2 which may sometimes break Recentchanges. The
> fix will be in the 1.4.3 bugfix release, or you can patch it in:
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-cvs/2005-April/007947.html
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikitech-l] version 1.5 vs. 1.4

body:
Hi, I need to install a new wiki - now I am wondering what I should do -
Install 1.5 and live for now with some bugs (I will be the one to create
most of the pages - it is quite unlikely that there will be many
contributors) or install 1.4.

Which difficulties do I encounter when updating from 1.4 to 1.5 and
which when starting with 1.5 now and then updating to a more stable version?

What about database structure etc.?

Thanks for any hint!

Ciao, Sabine


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

body: Blame the w3 for making it an optional part of the spec.


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On 25/04/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:

> There has been at least some PNG support in IE since 4.0 betas:

With the emphasis on "some" - for whatever reason, Microsoft never got
round to implementing the rather useful feature of the PNG standard
that lets you add an "alpha" layer for transparency, rather than
specifying one colour as transparent in the palette. This is
particularly useful for anti-aliasing something when you don't know
what background it will be on (and given that colour-matching is very
unreliable, that's most of the time).

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Richard Holton

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
> He has told me how shocked he is that I'd say something like that, how
> wrong I am, how I shouldn't say things when I don't know what I'm
> talking about, and has even said that I have accused him publicly of
> being a pornographer.
>
> Yet, while telling me how wrong I am and that I don't know what I'm
> talking about, and how he's shocked that I would say such things, he
> quietly sits not divulging exactly how it's wrong and what the right
> version is, and until such time as he does so I see no reason to not
> tell people the same old story over and over - without an explanation,
> why should I believe that what he says is real? As I said before there
> is an undeniable connection that Jimbo seems to want to deny: Bomis
> sells porn (although it gets "less than 10%" of its revenue from it),
> and Bomis was involved in the beginning of Wikipedia. That doesn't
> mean Wikipedia is a pornographic encyclopedia, or an encyclopedia of
> porn, or an encyclopedia founded by pornographers and supported mostly
> by money from porn sales - all it means is just that: the company that
> was the primary involved party in the beginning of Wikipedia, and in
> which Jimmy Wales still plays a large part, does have a "premium"
> website where it sells access to pornographic images. That doesn't
> mean anything about the objectivity of Wikipedia, on the contrary
> Wikipedia (at least en:) seems to be turning into Wikipedia - The
> Prudish Encyclopedia.

Mark,

Why do you presume (as you apparently do) that Jimmy owes you or
anyone else any explanation? You admit that the nature of Bomis'
business has nothing to do with Wikipedia's content and goals. Why do
you find it necessary to tell *any* story to others? Is there any need
to go beyond what is contained in [[W:en:Bomis]]?

Substitute "pornography" for "erotic images" if you prefer...the
distinction often seems to be POV anyway. Why does more need to be
said?

What I'm asking is, why is this so important to you? Up until now I
have been only an observer in this thread...and it seems like you're
just trying to stir up controversy. I don't *believe* that's what
you're doing, but I sure am puzzled as to what your motive actually
is.

-- Rich Holton

[[W:en:User:Rholton]]


from_name: Jonathan Duncan

subject: [Wikitech-l] Who owns the HTML output for MediaWiki?

body:
Is this the correct list to ask this question?

Who owns the HTML output for MediaWiki?  In other words, who or which group is in charge of the final output of the HTML for all MediaWiki pages?  Or does everyone just get to do their own thing?

The reason I ask is because I was recently asked to skin a copy of MediaWiki to put on one of our sites.  As I went through the CSS file that came with it and tried to modify it to my needs I found that I could not.  The reason I could not is because not all of the CSS was in the CSS file.  Not only that but whole sections in the HTML output were not identified and thus had to be modified manually.

Why is this a problem?  Everytime a new version of MediaWiki comes out, I am going to be required to tweak the HTML instead of just tweaking the CSS.

Is there an initiative here to standardize the HTML and CSS out put for MediaWiki?  To make it easier and cleaner to customize, structure must be separated from content.  Markup is only meant to markup, not control structure.  Anything to do with style or control should be removed from the HTML and put into the CSS.  The result will be cleaner HTML source and more control for designers.

Thank you,
Jonathan


subject: [WikiEN-l] It is a sign.

body:
Perhaps you can explain why I am required to act in this way but not the
likes of Violet Riga, Matt Crypto or lots of other people.

My annoyance started when Violet Riga got me blocked on a totally
spurious request and has both not been punished and has nor apologized.
It is referenced earlier on, in the thread.

I am quiet happy to have all my stuff up there provided other peoples is
subject to the same conditions, but that does not seem to be the case.

For instance I am chastised for not replying to people were as David
Gerrard and most of the members of the arbcomm feel that they do not
have to reply.

Or for instance why Pcpcpc would use a sock puppet to perform edits of
extremely dubious quality and then not explain why he acted the way he
did.

As for spam, the address is on several WWW sites as a contact so it is
virtually impossible to make it worse and Spamihilator seems up to the job.
I've also had this email for about 15 years now, which also means it is well
known.

You'll find I have used a spell checker but there is no guarantee that word
correctly spelt is the right word.

Date sent:      	Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:07:05 +0930
From:           	Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] It is a sign.
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley wrote:
>
> >What personal attacks have I made because I have been repremanded?
> >My disgust strtches far further back than that.
> >
> >
> >
> When did it start and why?
>
> >It also yet again seems that I what I have done is a personall attack then so
> >is everyones critisms of me. another example of 1 rule for the arbcommas.
> >
> >
> >
> I'm not on the Arbcom, but calling people "stupid immature idiots" won't
> help your case. Talking about "invalid, illogical, unreferenced, biased
> claims" in articles might - attack the idea, never the person.
>
> >My request for a page to be deleted was not spam, that several people
> >have decided to use it as an opportunity to rake over the coals is not my
> >problem.
> >
> >
> >
> What a person has in their user space is their concern unless it breaks
> policy (eg. is defamatory, illegal). Many people have pages like this as
> watchlists.
>
> Don't forget the disclaimer that you submitted all entries to Wikipedia
> under - All contributions to Wikipedia are released under the GNU Free
> Documentation License. The history of the mistakes you have made in the
> past cannot be erased, but that doesn't mean you have to make them in
> the future. Be polite, discuss things, never revert without talking
> about what you are doing and why.
>
> --
> Alphax
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
The significant thing about her is her involvement with Scott Peterson. That
she posed for nude pictures is not encyclopedic. With a porn star, there is
at least an excuse for linking to a sample.

Fred

> From: Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:56:41 -0400
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites
>
> Not to stir an ugly pot, but here is a more questionable sort of link:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Frey
>
> Apparently Scott Peterson's ex-gf posed nude at some point before
> writing a hit airport book. We have a direct link to said photos
> placed in the text of our content.
>
> At first I thought about removing it -- not so much because I am
> against nudity or pornography or anything, but that it seemed to lack
> class to have Wikipedia be a facilitator of one particular set of
> pictures about a here-today-gone-tomorrow person in the news.
>
> On the other hand, I didn't really think that was a good reason to
> delete the link. Who cares about whether it is classy? What sort of
> standard is that, anyway? etc.
>
> I thought about shifting it to the external links section, but even
> then I thought that would be a little silly. I thought about adding a
> warning -- "WARNING, NAKEDNESS!" -- but felt like such a prude. I
> mean, it is linked (not in-line) -- isn't that what I've been
> advocating for this sort of thing? If you are so daft as to not
> realize that an external link entitled "Nude pictures" is going to
> link to nude pictures, well, that can't be helped.
>
> So I left it as it was. Anyway, I'm only bringing it up because it
> seems like a better example of what you referenced than pages about
> porn stars linking to pornography sites -- this is someone who is not
> a porn star but has a link of this sort.
>
> FF
>
> On 4/18/05, Arno M <redgum46 at lycos.com> wrote:
>> The bowdlerising project does ssem to have died a quiet death , all right.
>>
>> Examples of pages with links to porn/adult sites in them (all found in 20
>> seconds):
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenna_Jameson,
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_James and
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Carey.
>>
>> I fail to see any constructive purpose to them, and and any school that can
>> reasonably
>> be described as decent or respnsible is (not) going to love them.
>>
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> NEW! Lycos Dating Search. The only place to search multiple dating sites at
>> once.
>> http://datingsearch.lycos.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Timwi, if you doubt the accent problem is a real one, you clearly have
not heard many different accents in your life.

Even when spoken slowly and clearly, there are some accents that are
well near unintelligible to those with a certain different accent, at
least without being around them for a while.

And what about accents that some might deem "incorrect"? The typical
Singaporean accent might be called incorrect by some, and those of
"foreigners" would most likely be called incorrect by quite a few
people.

Some people would say that any accent other than the "standard" (with
English, being official in more than one nation, there is no single
"standard", but people often being ignoramuses we can expect that they
will say "Sure, the ____ and the _____ have their 'standard accent',
but ours is the only correct one." (making little imaginary quote
marks around "standard accent")

If you listen to a sampling of a wide range of accents in English, you
will almost certainly find one that, even when spoken "slowly" and
"clearly", you have a great difficulty understanding.

With some languages this is even worse.

Mark

On 25/04/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Andy Rabagliati wrote:
> > On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Timwi wrote:
> >
> >>Heh! All the more incentive to get more people to participate in
> >>[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia]] (shameless plug)! Nobody
> >>really wants machine-generated spoken versions when a real human-spoken
> >>version is available. :)
> >
> > There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
> >
> > * Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like CamelCase :-)
>
> Of course, you cannot edit a sound file in the same way that you can
> edit text. But you're not supposed to, anyway; the sound file is not an
> original article, but a reading of an existing textual version. My hope
> is that once most featured articles have a recording, the regular
> participants in the Spoken Wikipedia project will be happy to update
> their own sound files as the article changes significantly. If someone
> doesn't, well, then I guess someone else will have to re-read the entire
> article, but if someone's happy to do that (which isn't unlikely if the
> recording is significantly out of date) then there's no problem with that.
>
> > * Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
> >   someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)
>
> I'm not sure how large and how representative a sample of listeners you
> have already surveyed, but I highly doubt this is a real problem. The
> recordings are obviously supposed to be spoken slowly and clearly.
>
> Are you a native speaker of English? Where are you from? What accents do
> you tend to have trouble understanding?
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

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body:
And I should add, why do we need a spoken Wikipedia? Wouldn't it be
better to adapt a TTS engine to get articles from Wikipedia, and read
them? Remember, TTS engines can be made for any language, and it's
becoming increasingly easy to make them even if you're not an expert.

Mark

On 25/04/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Timwi, if you doubt the accent problem is a real one, you clearly have
> not heard many different accents in your life.
>
> Even when spoken slowly and clearly, there are some accents that are
> well near unintelligible to those with a certain different accent, at
> least without being around them for a while.
>
> And what about accents that some might deem "incorrect"? The typical
> Singaporean accent might be called incorrect by some, and those of
> "foreigners" would most likely be called incorrect by quite a few
> people.
>
> Some people would say that any accent other than the "standard" (with
> English, being official in more than one nation, there is no single
> "standard", but people often being ignoramuses we can expect that they
> will say "Sure, the ____ and the _____ have their 'standard accent',
> but ours is the only correct one." (making little imaginary quote
> marks around "standard accent")
>
> If you listen to a sampling of a wide range of accents in English, you
> will almost certainly find one that, even when spoken "slowly" and
> "clearly", you have a great difficulty understanding.
>
> With some languages this is even worse.
>
> Mark
>
> On 25/04/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> > Andy Rabagliati wrote:
> > > On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Timwi wrote:
> > >
> > >>Heh! All the more incentive to get more people to participate in
> > >>[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia]] (shameless plug)! Nobody
> > >>really wants machine-generated spoken versions when a real human-spoken
> > >>version is available. :)
> > >
> > > There was some discussion of that. Two (very real) problems :-
> > >
> > > * Editing. Voice editing sounds clumsy, and would sound like CamelCase :-)
> >
> > Of course, you cannot edit a sound file in the same way that you can
> > edit text. But you're not supposed to, anyway; the sound file is not an
> > original article, but a reading of an existing textual version. My hope
> > is that once most featured articles have a recording, the regular
> > participants in the Spoken Wikipedia project will be happy to update
> > their own sound files as the article changes significantly. If someone
> > doesn't, well, then I guess someone else will have to re-read the entire
> > article, but if someone's happy to do that (which isn't unlikely if the
> > recording is significantly out of date) then there's no problem with that.
> >
> > > * Accents. If an Indian is trying to understand what a Geordie or
> > >   someone from Barbados is saying, it might as well be in Afrikaans :-)
> >
> > I'm not sure how large and how representative a sample of listeners you
> > have already surveyed, but I highly doubt this is a real problem. The
> > recordings are obviously supposed to be spoken slowly and clearly.
> >
> > Are you a native speaker of English? Where are you from? What accents do
> > you tend to have trouble understanding?
> >
> > Timwi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
>

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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Language policy agreement in the Norwegian
	Wikipedia community

body:
Bjarte,

If these people really did receive positive reactions, which I'm
doubtful they did, it's because most of the people in charge don't
like having two Wikipedias where there "could" be 1 instead. It is
seen as a tragic division of effort, and no doubt those who were
discussing it with them played down dramatically the actual
differences between Bokm?l and Nynorsk.

I also have an opinion regarding no: and nb:.

no: should be moved to nb:, and no: should redirect to nb:.

However, this should eventually be changed so that no: is a portal
containing a link to both, but there should be enough time in between
for people to get sort of used to the new URL, as there was with
"wikipedia.org" vs "en.wikipedia.org" for the English Wikipedia. As
with the English Wikipedia, however, actual article requests to no:
such as http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norge should automatically be
redirected to the Bokm?l article, with perhaps special exceptions when
the title is obviously Nynorsk.

To continue forever to use no: for Bokm?l and/or Riksm?l is inherently
non-neutral. no: is listed in the ISO standard as "Norwegian", yet if
Nynorsk is disallowed on no: but no: remains at the current subdomain,
that means we are actually endorsing the view that "Bokm?l is the
_real_ Norwegian language".

Mark

On 25/04/05, Bjarte S?rensen <bjarte.sorensen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Most of you would be aware of some of the discussions that have occurred
> around Wikipedia in the Norwegian languages. Since the last round of
> discussions on this list, there has been a lot of internal debate, as
> well as what seems to be a fairly widely accepted agreement following
> voting.
>
> This e-mail intends to, after a brief recap on Norwegian language and
> wikipedia issues, take those interested through the latest development
> and will stake out the road ahead. It is also intended to inform the
> international community about the current agreement on no.wikipedia, so
> as to prevent misunderstandings in the future.
>
> Finally, we will mention an unfortunate reaction to the vote by a small
> number of users at the Norwegian Bokm?l/Riksm?l (no:) wikipedia who want
> to disregard the result of the voting and are planning to create a
> _third_ Norwegian wikipedia with the sole mission of mixing the contents
> of the two current Norwegian versions.
>
> == A short language history of Norway ==
>
> Spoken Norwegian ("norsk") (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "no") is in a fairly
> unique situation compared to most other languages of the world in that
> it has two widely accepted written standards, Bokm?l (ISO 639-2 alpha-2
> code "nb") and Nynorsk (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "nn"). By national
> legislation they are both regarded as official written forms of
> Norwegian. In addition, many people still make a distinction between
> Bokm?l and its precursor which still is in use, Riksm?l.
>
> Briefly speaking, Bokm?l and Riksm?l are descendants of the Danish
> written language. Until the 1800s, Danish was the only widely used
> written language in Norway as a result of four centuries of union with
> Denmark. With increasing independence came a wish to norwegianise the
> Danish standard, with Knud Knudsen at the forefront for changing parts
> of the vocabulary and orthographics. Thus, Riksm?l, and later Bokm?l,
> resulted. These forms together are today probably used by about 90% of
> Norway's population, or somewhere around 3,500,000 people.
>
> Parallel to this development, a new written standard was created by Ivar
> Aasen. He travelled extensively throughout Norway, and based his new
> language, landsm?l, on the grammar and vocabulary of dialect samples
> from around the country. This was later renamed Nynorsk. Modern Nynorsk
> differs significantly from modern Bokm?l, and may be linguistically
> looked upon as as different (or as similar if you like) as Swedish is to
> Danish. For English or Dutch/German speakers, the differences may be
> likened to those between (Lowland) Scots and English or Low German and
> Dutch. Today it is estimated that about 500,000-600,000 people have
> Nynorsk as their first written language.
>
> More information about the Norwegian language history can be found in
> English, German, French, Spanish or Portuguese on the website of the
> Norwegian Language Council:
> http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=653
>
> == A short history of Wikipedia in Norwegian ==
>
> The first Norwegian wikipedia started 26 November 2001 on the subdomain
> no.wikipedia.org. As most wikipedias, its contributor and article count
> started really picking up around the end of 2003. At the time, it
> accepted all written standards of Norwegian, although the amount of
> Nynorsk was minimal. There were already several debates about the
> feasibilty and appropriateness of keeping the two languages united on
> one Wikipedia. On 31 July 2004 a Wikipedia for Nynorsk was created.
>
> The creation of nn:, however, split the community at no: wikipedia. Many
> felt that given that Nynorsk now had its own wikipedia, no: should
> become a Bokm?l/Riksm?l Wikipedia only. Others disapproved and claimed
> that there was no need to change and that it should continue its
> language policy of accepting all and keep its interwiki link name of
> "Norsk".
>
> Nynorsk Wikipedia soon proved a success, as it within the next few
> months gathered several people who had felt uncomfortable in the
> (mainly) Bokm?l environment at no:. The name displayed in interwiki
> links became "Norsk (nynorsk)" (languages are not spelt with upper case
> in Norwegian). To date it continues to be one of the fastest growing
> wikipedias, with a steady article increase, now at over 6000 articles
> and >50 editors with more than 10 edits since arrival.
>
> == Votes ==
>
> The issue of no:'s language policy has come up time and again, and a
> vote was held in March ([[:no:Wikipedia:M?lform]]) as to which policy to
> adapt. Independent of the method of the tally (whether or not to include
> new contributors etc.) there was a majority for switching to a
> Bokm?l/Riksm?l only language policy (50% for Bokm?l/Riksm?l, 43.2% for
> Bokm?l/Riksm?l/Nynorsk/H?gnorsk, and 6.8% for the official variants
> Bokm?l/Nynorsk only).
>
> Following this result, there is now going to be a vote on which
> interwiki link name will most appropriately reflect the current language
> policy of no:. The result of this vote will most likely be either "Norsk
> (bokm?l)" or "Norsk (bokm?l/riksm?l)".
>
> Understandably, there has also been a debate as to whether the subdomain
> should change from "no" to "nb", as this is the correct representation
> of Bokm?l according to ISO 639-2. However, there is some resentment
> towards such a move and currently a general acceptance in letting the
> Bokm?l wikipedia stay at "no". The alternative some have suggested is a
> server-side redirect from "no" to "nb", in the same way that "nb" today
> is a server-side redirect to the equivalent page on "no".
>
> == Summary of the problem ==
>
> Unfortunately, a small group of users (who all write Bokm?l/Riksm?l) are
> ignoring the results from the vote, and are claiming they want to
> re-establish a wikipedia for all written standards of Norwegian. They
> claim they have been in touch with people centrally in Wikimedia
> (developers? stewards?) and that they have so far received positive
> comments. With this email, we would like to state the fact that there
> have been no official decisions about creating a third Norwegian
> wikipedia containing both Bokm?l and Nynorsk, it is merely an unofficial
> initiative from a small group of users which started a sign-on list at
> [[:no:Bruker:Norsk_Wikipedia]]. A spontaneous list with signatures
> against this activity was immediately created at
> [[:no:Wikipedia-diskusjon:Fellesnorsk]]. The process of creating a third
> Norwegian wikipedia has not gone through a voting process in any of the
> two existing Norwegian wikipedias (no: and nn:) and can not be
> considered as a decision by the Norwegian Wikipedia community.
>
> We believe the creation of a third wikipedia under the Wikimedia
> foundation would have a serious and unfortunate impact on the existing
> wikipedias in Norwegian, no: and nn:, and would undermine Wikipedia's
> reputation in Norway. This being said, we are all for extensive co-
> operation between the four Scandinavian language wikipedias (including
> Swedish and Danish), as evident by the recent creation of
> [[:meta:Skanwiki]], the Scandinavian meta-pages, and the use of featured
> articles from neighbour wikipedias.
>
> == Conclusion ==
>
> Hopefully, this letter will help people better understand the
> complicated language situation of the Norwegian Wikipedia community, so
> as to give a background on which discussion can take place on this list
> in the future, such as the inevitable debate following a possible
> request for a re-establishment of the common (and third!) Norwegian
> Wikipedia.
>
> >From the community of no.wikipedia.org and nn.wikipedia.org,
>
> Bjarte S?rensen [[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on nn:)
> Lars Alvik [[:no:User:Profoss]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on no:)
> ?yvind A. Holm [[:no:User:Sunny256]] (Administrator on no:)
> Onar Vikingstad [[:no:User:Vikingstad]] (Administrator on no:)
> Jon Harald S?by [[:no:User:Jhs]] (Administrator on no:)
> Chris Nyborg [[:no:User:Cnyborg]] (Administrator on no:)
> Guttorm Flatab? [[:no:User:Dittaeva]] (Administrator on nn:)
> Gunleiv Hadland [[:meta:User:Gunnernett]] (Administrator on nn:)
> Jarle Fagerheim [[:nn:User:Jarle]] (Administrator on nn:)
> ?yvind Jo Heimdal Eik [[:en:User:Pladask]] (Administrator on nn: and no:)
> Kristian Andr? Gallis [[:nn:User:Kristaga]]
> Vegard W?rp [[:no:User:Vegardw]]
> Nina Aldin Thune [[:no:User:Nina]]
> Thor-Rune Hansen [[:no:User:ThorRune]]
> Claes Tande [[:no:User:Ctande]]
> Arnt-Erik Krokaa [[:no:User:AEK]]
> Rune Sattler [[:no:User:Shauni]]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

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POSSIT MATERIARI
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 25/04/05, Richard Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:
> > He has told me how shocked he is that I'd say something like that, how
> > wrong I am, how I shouldn't say things when I don't know what I'm
> > talking about, and has even said that I have accused him publicly of
> > being a pornographer.
> >
> > Yet, while telling me how wrong I am and that I don't know what I'm
> > talking about, and how he's shocked that I would say such things, he
> > quietly sits not divulging exactly how it's wrong and what the right
> > version is, and until such time as he does so I see no reason to not
> > tell people the same old story over and over - without an explanation,
> > why should I believe that what he says is real? As I said before there
> > is an undeniable connection that Jimbo seems to want to deny: Bomis
> > sells porn (although it gets "less than 10%" of its revenue from it),
> > and Bomis was involved in the beginning of Wikipedia. That doesn't
> > mean Wikipedia is a pornographic encyclopedia, or an encyclopedia of
> > porn, or an encyclopedia founded by pornographers and supported mostly
> > by money from porn sales - all it means is just that: the company that
> > was the primary involved party in the beginning of Wikipedia, and in
> > which Jimmy Wales still plays a large part, does have a "premium"
> > website where it sells access to pornographic images. That doesn't
> > mean anything about the objectivity of Wikipedia, on the contrary
> > Wikipedia (at least en:) seems to be turning into Wikipedia - The
> > Prudish Encyclopedia.
>
> Mark,
>
> Why do you presume (as you apparently do) that Jimmy owes you or
> anyone else any explanation? You admit that the nature of Bomis'
> business has nothing to do with Wikipedia's content and goals. Why do
> you find it necessary to tell *any* story to others? Is there any need
> to go beyond what is contained in [[W:en:Bomis]]?

If he is going to continue to tell me I am wrong, don't know what I'm
talking about, that he's shocked that I would say such things, he had
better either tell me what the truth is or just learn to live with the
currentversion cemented in my mind which I tell all who ask about the
history of Wikipedia.

So, if he didn't tell me I was wrong or didn't know what I'm talking
about, or that he's shocked, or whatever, but just that "I don't
really remember it that way, but you can tell it as you'd like", I'd
not expect any sort of explanation from him.

> Substitute "pornography" for "erotic images" if you prefer...the
> distinction often seems to be POV anyway. Why does more need to be
> said?

Sure. But if I recall correctly the term Jimbo used to say that less
than 10% of Bomis' revenue is from that... portion of their business,
he said "pornography"... but I honestly don't remember.

> What I'm asking is, why is this so important to you? Up until now I
> have been only an observer in this thread...and it seems like you're
> just trying to stir up controversy. I don't *believe* that's what
> you're doing, but I sure am puzzled as to what your motive actually
> is.

My motive is that, Jimbo has told me to quit telling falsehoods, that
I am wrong, I don't know what I'm talking about, and even that he's
shocked that I would say such things, yet refuses to tell me what the
actual truth is. If this thread goes dormant, I'm not going to just
keep adding e-mails onto the end until he tells me, but as long as
there are still messages that I feel warrant a response, I will
probably reply to them.

If you'll recall correctly, all I said originally was some short
barely-a-sentence thing about "believe it or not". Then Jimbo made a
fuss - so remember, it's Jimbo who turned this into a ruckus, not me -
and refused to explain himself. If he is going to go around telling me
I'm wrong, I think I have a right to know how I'm wrong, otherwise he
will have to learn to live with the status quo.

Mark

--
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from_name: Juanma Barranquero

body:
On 4/25/05, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:

> [...] Microsoft never got
> round to implementing the rather useful feature of the PNG standard
> that lets you add an "alpha" layer for transparency, rather than
> specifying one colour as transparent in the palette.


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking

body:
John Bradley wrote:

>It is strange that you can decide that one group of editors is valuable to
>wikipedia but not another.
>
>Can you show me some data which demonstrates that the losses cause by
>straight talking would exceed the saving acheived by some editor pruning?
>or is this another case of assuming that the first idea that comes into your
>head is right and fighting for it.
>
>You'll also note that this is the first time Dave Gerard has responded to me
>with anything other than msgs saying he will not talk with me.
>
>
>
Wikipedia welcomes anyone who contributes and follows policy. "Cite
sources", "no personal attacks" and "neutral point of view" sound fairly
reasonable. Given that the role of Wikipedia is to be an encyclopedia,
the aim of an encyclopedia is to educate, and discussion can help to
educate, I think that just talking to people in a calm and sensible
manner is going to achieve a whole lot more than attacking them, because
if you can actually DISCUSS something, education will take place and the
issue will be resolved. Experts in a particular field may be frustrated
with having to put up with ignorant plebs, but if say "I am an expert in
(topic), the facts are (such and such)" AND provide some reference
material to back it up, you will be well-respected. Screaming "You
idiot! That's wrong!" will get nothing but frowns and shakes of the head.

PS. I advise against publishing your full name, address and phone number
in your email. This mailing list ends up in newsgroups, so if someone
takes an exception to what you say, you could be in serious personal danger.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Michael P. Hopcroft

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Once an article has been titles,
	can thentitle be changed?

body:
I need a title change on one of my articles to correct a spelling error.
Who so I ask?

Michael Hopcroft


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Critics & weak articles

body:
On 4/20/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> This is the sort of thing that drove away Larry Sanger (in part): lack
> of respect for accomplishment, diligence and solid scholarship. You try
> to find some small thing to pick on, and then (illegitimately) imply
> that it's representative of the whole. (I started to write an article on
> [[damaging quotation]]s one time.)
>
> To make Wikipedia really solid, SOMEBODY has to start verifying and
> endorsing Article Versions. I still credit Larry Sanger as the
> originator of the "sifter project", and I eagerly wait integration of
> Magnus's software updates.

I've been thinking about this a few days and I've decided that I
disagree with it completely.

The best defense about Wikipedia being inaccurate is to say that it is
constantly in flux and one should take it with a grain of salt. It's a
good starting point but it can never been authoritative. This is not
really a criticism -- one should have such a critical eye with *all*
accounts of knowledge to some extent, it is just a lull in critical
faculties which causes us to think that EB articles come with
guaranteed authority.

The sifter seems like an attempt to put on a veneer of authority -- to
say, "this has been checked, it is more accurate or reliable than the
dynamic version." I think this is misleading and dangerous.

First of all, unless we have real, verified "experts" writing/editing
these siftered articles, we can't in any way pretend to paste on any
veneer of authority based in traditional models of it. And to require
that degree of authentication seems antithetical to the Wikipedia
collective philosophy, at the very least. Wikipedia's greatest claim
to authority is that each piece has been looked at by dozens of
different eyes from different backgrounds. It is a different model of
authority.

Secondly, slapping an "approved" on something removes our only
recourse to accusations of inaccuracy. At the moment we can say,
"look, we don't guarantee anything." The second we start labeling some
content as "fixed" is the second we implicitly lose that (even if we
right "no guarantees" on the bottom of things -- even EB writes that
in its disclaimers but nobody takes legalese seriously when it comes
to questions of factual accuracy).

I've seen dozens of articles which would no doubt be considered
"sifter"-worthy which I think contained gross inaccuries or poor
reprensentations. It is very easy to make something look complete if
it is not a topic which most people know all that much about and is
written in an apparently sensible way. However I don't think an
expertocracy is the way to go on this. The bonus of a "free"
encyclopedia (like "free" software) is that you are also "free" from
liability -- no guarantees provided, of course (who provides
guarantees anymore?), but also no guarantees *expected*. Adobe does
not guarantee that Photoshop will work correctly, but it is expected
that it ought to. I think people are more liberal in their assessments
of open source solutions like GIMP -- it is no surprise, and no real
sin, that it doesn't always function as expected.

Just some thoughts I had on this while thinking about free licenses,
dynamic content, and what they imply. (I believe Jimbo will be giving
a talk 'roundabouts my neck of the woods on free licensing tomorrow,
maybe I'll check it out...)

FF


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Not to stir an ugly pot, but here is a more questionable sort of link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Frey

Apparently Scott Peterson's ex-gf posed nude at some point before
writing a hit airport book. We have a direct link to said photos
placed in the text of our content.

At first I thought about removing it -- not so much because I am
against nudity or pornography or anything, but that it seemed to lack
class to have Wikipedia be a facilitator of one particular set of
pictures about a here-today-gone-tomorrow person in the news.

On the other hand, I didn't really think that was a good reason to
delete the link. Who cares about whether it is classy? What sort of
standard is that, anyway? etc.

I thought about shifting it to the external links section, but even
then I thought that would be a little silly. I thought about adding a
warning -- "WARNING, NAKEDNESS!" -- but felt like such a prude. I
mean, it is linked (not in-line) -- isn't that what I've been
advocating for this sort of thing? If you are so daft as to not
realize that an external link entitled "Nude pictures" is going to
link to nude pictures, well, that can't be helped.

So I left it as it was. Anyway, I'm only bringing it up because it
seems like a better example of what you referenced than pages about
porn stars linking to pornography sites -- this is someone who is not
a porn star but has a link of this sort.

FF

On 4/18/05, Arno M <redgum46 at lycos.com> wrote:
> The bowdlerising project does ssem to have died a quiet death , all right.
>
> Examples of pages with links to porn/adult sites in them (all found in 20 seconds):
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenna_Jameson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_James and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Carey.
>
> I fail to see any constructive purpose to them, and and any school that can reasonably
> be described as decent or respnsible is (not) going to love them.
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> NEW! Lycos Dating Search. The only place to search multiple dating sites at once.
> http://datingsearch.lycos.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Jaap van Ganswijk (ganswijk at xs4all.nl) [050425 18:52]:

> I have disabled ActiveX plugins and controls
> in my IE-browser (due to the large amount of
> self-installing spy-ware etc. and when I go
> to wikipedia sites like:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/
> http://nl.wikipedia.org/
> I get a popup window with 'Do you want to allow
> software such as ActiveX controls and plug-ins
> to run?'
> Wouldn't it be better for an open source standards
> based site not to require MS-dependent technology?

This isn't required by the site. I suggest you run a thorough spyware and
antivirus check again. And stop using IE for anything as far as
possible.

- d.


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Critics & weak articles

body:
Fastfission wrote:

>The sifter seems like an attempt to put on a veneer of authority -- to
>say, "this has been checked, it is more accurate or reliable than the
>dynamic version." I think this is misleading and dangerous.
>
>
Personally, all I really want out of a sifter-type process is "this has
been checked and is not blatantly vandalized or currently an active
battleground, and the spelling looks okay to me." IMO a sifter like this
would take a lot of stress off of editors who, rightly or wrongly, feel
the need to keep a constant watch over articles and "fix" them instantly
when problems crop up. It would also allow us to feel comfortable
stamping ten thousand CDs without the fear that the database dump was
taken at the exact moment a vandal stuck in something dreadful that is
now immortalized in dimpled aluminium. All the standard Wikipedia
disclaimers should still apply.

Once we have that, then maybe we can start looking at ways to produce an
even more rigorously proofed versions that includes fact checking. I'm
not in a hurry. :)


body:
Mathias Schindler (neubau at presroi.de) [050425 19:08]:
> David Gerard wrote:

> >>I get a popup window with 'Do you want to allow
> >>software such as ActiveX controls and plug-ins
> >>to run?'

> >This isn't required by the site. I suggest you run a thorough spyware and
> >antivirus check again. And stop using IE for anything as far as
> >possible.

> I would like to point your attention to "such as".
> This is a wild guess but I remember my MSIE to rely on external plug-ins
> to display png files properly. This would fit under the MSIE-question above.

There has been at least some PNG support in IE since 4.0 betas:

    http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngapbr.html#msie-win-unix

- although I do vaguely recall some versions of either IE or Netscape 4
using, for example, the QuickTime plugin to render PNGs.

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Date Formats

body:
On 25/04/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/25/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> > Go to your preferences, click the "Date format" tab, and select your
> > preferred format.
>
> ...but only if you're on the English Wikipedia.
> http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences has no such option.
> Would it be feasible to add this feature to other wikis?

This is, I believe, coded and coming soon - probably in 1.5, due to go
"beta" at the beginning of next month. See, for instance:
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-March/038490.html

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Bjarte Sørensen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 4/25/05, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> Timwi wrote:
>
> >Heh. Imagine:
> >
> >Jimbo: "OK, guys. What should we call our new project?"
> >Larry Sanger: "How about 'Wikipedia'?"
> >Jimbo: "That sounds cool. But how is it going to work?"
> >Jeremy Rosenfeld: "I have an idea! Let's use a wiki!"
> >Jimbo: "Brilliant! Jeremy, you're the man!"
> >Larry Sanger: "But it was *my* idea!"
> >
> >
> Can we work a secret porn business into the script somehow? =]
>
> -Mark

Shhh, don't say the p-word! Gmail filtered your e-mail as spam! Maybe
it'll start doing the same with the rest of wikipedia-l mails once it
sees the connection ...

Bjarte Sorensen


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test wiki (e-mail address confirmation)

body:
Thomas Gries wrote:
>  >Brian wrote
>  >I've cleaned it up a bit to separate the email confirmation token from
> the login password, as well as some general code cleanup backing
> that.The user >table has changed a bit, so those of you tracking CVS
> HEAD be  sure to run update.php.
>
> Brion:
> In SpecialPreferences.php of CVS HEAD, all these 11 lines need to
> ***deleted*** now, please, This solves the feature, the users are
> complaining about.

Tom, I've already replaced all that.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: V. Ivanov

body:
A way out may be manual addition of the actual language codes list
into the Ossetic WP. It will solve the interwiki problems on our side.

It'd be also great if somebody add the code for "os" to, at least, the
most culturally important for Ossetians WPs such as ru, ka, tr, fa,
cv, tt and probably en, de, eo.

Rgrds,
Sl.

On 4/23/05, V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> The other example of the misfunctioning interwiki links can be found
> at http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D1%8B%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B3_%D0%B0%D0%B4%C3%A6%D0%BC
> ?D all the interwikies _from_ the Ossetic WP to older WPs do work,
> while the interwiki to cv: (created in December 2004 or so) is the red
> part of the article.
>
> How can we change all that? Feeling ourselves a somewhat outer project
> with no links to the "main WP" is really weird.
> E. g. now we have a really cute article
> http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/??????????????_?????????? translated into Russian,
> German and Esperanto. We would like to propose it for the "Translation
> of the Week" as soon as we have the well-structured English version.
> But how can we do that, if no interwiki links to the Ossetic articles
> can exist?!..
>
> Respectfully,
> Slavik Ivanov
>
> --
> Esperu cxiam!
> http://os.wikipedia.org/
> http://e-novosti.info/forumo/
>

--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: Nathan Russell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
On 4/25/05, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> The significant thing about her is her involvement with Scott Peterson. That
> she posed for nude pictures is not encyclopedic. With a porn star, there is
> at least an excuse for linking to a sample.

The fact that she created a scandal for him is notable.  WHether this
deserves a link is debatable; we don't have an article for the
boyfriend of Paris Hilton's who sold the sex tape, I believe, for
example.

Pakaran


from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Date Formats

body:
On 4/25/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Go to your preferences, click the "Date format" tab, and select your
> preferred format.

...but only if you're on the English Wikipedia.
http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences has no such option.
Would it be feasible to add this feature to other wikis?

Angela.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: OTRS problem

body:
Jens Frank a ?crit:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Jens Frank wrote:
>
>>On Mon, Apr 25, 2005 at 06:17:46AM -0400, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>>
>>>The board queue is overwhelmed with SPAM.  Would it be possible to
>>>route mail to the otrs board queue through spamassassin first, with the
>>>parameters set fairly aggressively?
>>>
>>>The ideal solution might involve an autoresponder as well.  If Spam
>>>assassin thinks something to that queue is spam, we autorespond to warn
>>>the person that we've discarded it and please try again (perhaps by
>>>sending it directly to me with wikipedia in the subject line for example).
>>
>>We have a spam filter already, I'll tune it to catch those messages.
>>
>
>
> I checked some queues and found that spam is moved manually to the
> "Probably Spam" queue. Please don't.
>
> Incoming mail is run through spamassassin. If it is considered spam,
> it is tagged as "----SPAM----" in the subject. It is still forwarded
> to OTRS. There, a job runs every 5 minutes and moves mail marked as
> ----SPAM---- to the "Probably Spam" queue. You don't need to handle
> these mails, just ignore them.
>
> Spam that is not caught by spamassassin should be moved to the "Junk"
> queue. I frequently check that queue and train spamassassin's bayesian
> filter using the mails in there.
>
> Mail in the "Probably Spam" and "Junk" queues gets deleted after 1 week.
>
> In the last week, 230 Mails were automatically marked as "Spam", 30 were
> sent to "Junk".
>
> Regards,
>
> 	jens

Goodness... we just did not know. Quite naturally, we put spam... in the
"spam" box... seemed errrr, the right thing to do ;-)

Thanks for training us jens... it was getting terrifying to get there...

Anthere


subject: [Wikitech-l] OTRS problem

body:
On 4/25/05, Jens Frank <JeLuF at gmx.de> wrote:

> I frequently check that queue and train spamassassin's bayesian
> filter using the mails in there.

Thanks for doing that.

Is it possible to also get rid of all the "link exchange" messages in
this way? I already filter out everything with --spam-- in the subject
within gmail (since I've got it set up to notify me of all incoming
messages to the board queue) so the spam I see most are these constant
requests for reciprocal links.

Angela.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> Another reason not to say the p-word: It will invoke the wrath of
> Jimmy Wales for using "porn" and "Wikipedia" in the same e-mail.
>
> Bjarte, my suggestion is to add a reverse-filter so that all e-mails
> from Wikipedia-l are safe.
>
> Anyhow back to my point. Wikipedia is somehow related to Bomis
> historically, right? This is a well-established fact, no? It says it
> pretty much everywhere.
>
> Jimbo himself admits that Bomis deals in porn (although it accounts
> for less than 10% of their revenue), and people who are having
> troubles finding the actual porn as opposed to just the Babe Report
> are advised to go to http://premium.bomis.com (a pay site).
>
> Thus, I don't see where he gets the idea that the things people are
> saying are wrong. And why did he just say "you're wrong" instead of
> explaining, even after Ant asked him for an explanation? He has sent
> me increasingly rude private e-mails as well rather than discuss it
> calmly on the list.
>
> Mark

I am quite confident that he will explain it to me one day, perhaps in
France in front of a beer this summer. I am preparing the grass (mostly
weeds actually) and the flowers (these are neat) and the outside
wood-table (this one is perfect now) so that the environnement is good
for talking of such things.

The list might not be the perfect place to talk about it possibly ?

May I suggest that you drop the matter for now Mark ? I think it is
getting a bit heavy possibly and visibly you wont get any more answers
by asking more.

I think.

Cheers

Anthere


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Those "herky-jerky" TTS systems are considered "low-end". They really do suck.

You can by "high end" TTS systems for a lot of money, and I think with
a little work there could be an open source "high end" engine as well.

I think somebody experimented in using neural networking to improve
TTS (to try to get it to mimic a speech sample of a human), and the
result was reasonably natural sounding.

Mark

On 25/04/05, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/26/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > And I should add, why do we need a spoken Wikipedia? Wouldn't it be
> > better to adapt a TTS engine to get articles from Wikipedia, and read
> > them? Remember, TTS engines can be made for any language, and it's
> > becoming increasingly easy to make them even if you're not an expert.
>
> Mark, not sure if you're wondering about the whole idea of audible
> aritcles, or just the human-centered approach to it.
>
> If you find a TTS system that is acceptably good (Festival, MBROLA,
> et al) then feel free to try it and post some samples at
> [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia]]. But so far the TTS results
> I've heard have been quite unsatisfactory, and the "ear fatigue"
> experienced when listening to a herky jerky TTS system doesn't bode
> well for long articles. Wikipedia might be a great testbed for a TTS
> system. I'd like to see how it does on mixed language articles like
> [[Dim sum]].
>
> -User:Fuzheado
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
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