subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
At 17:00 13/03/2003 -0500, Ed wrote:
>What is your specific objection to user:Michael?
>
>If he's just sloppy with facts, then keep following him around and quietly
>fixing his errors. Eventually, he'll either decide to be more careful or
>just get tired.
>
>Is he reverting your fixes, even when you've documented that your fixes
>are accurate?

He's made up comments on talk pages and attributed them to others by
"signing" their name (the comments made the users seem to be rude, abusive,
etc). He's added links to a porn site on the year pages. He's added patent
nonsense about the imagined sexual activities of George Washington. And
yes, he's reverted fixes documented as accurate. See [[Crass]] and
associated talk page.

with apologies for the lack of grace and good humor,
lp (camembert)
WikiKarma: following Michael around


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l]  Google search results

body:
--- Dan Koehl <dan.koehl at chello.at> wrote:
> Strange Google results seem to be on more wikis like
> the Swedish.
>
> Hopefully those IP marks can be removed.
>
> I found something when I serched for the word
> elephantkeeper on Google with
>
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=elephantkeeper&btnG=Google+Search
>
> The second hit is :
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Elephantkeeper&action=edit
>
> Do we want serchengines to list action=edit on all
> pages?
>
> Dan Koehl

by the way, do you need more help with your elephants
? What about some pict for us also :-))) anthere

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Stop your stupid, hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

body:
I've removed Albert from this mailing list.

--Jimbo


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

in_reply_to: <E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280F43DD@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>; from Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com on Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 08:47:53AM -0500

body:
Well, I was preparing to fire up the ban machine, but Ed has worked
wonders in the past, so I'll give the week.

Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Well, all those sound like bannable offenses to me.
> So let's discuss strategy.
>
> Here's what we want: Michael not to do those things.
>
> Here are our options:
> 1. Ignore him, and just clean up as needed
> 2. Agitate for a ban
>
> I think in this case option #1 will work better,
> because after a while, his anti-social behavior
> will taper off (see "Do not feed the trolls").
>
> Option #2 is less likely to work, since he's liable
> to change usernames.
>
> Moral of the story: sometimes it's not effective
> to fight fire with fire; it's better to be a wet
> blanket or to let the fire burn itself out.
>
> Unless someone else has a much better idea, I ask
> you all to join me in option #1 for a week.
>
> Uncle Ed
>
> WikiKarma: soothing messages like this ;-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> He's made up comments on talk pages and attributed them to others by
> "signing" their name (the comments made the users seem to be rude, abusive,
> etc). He's added links to a porn site on the year pages. He's added patent
> nonsense about the imagined sexual activities of George Washington. And
> yes, he's reverted fixes documented as accurate. See [[Crass]] and
> associated talk page.
>
> with apologies for the lack of grace and good humor,
> lp (camembert)
> WikiKarma: following Michael around
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: [WikiEN-l]Japanese Emperors & broken links

in_reply_to: <BAY1-F230MI8yas5kPi00038c9e@hotmail.com>; from jtdirl@hotmail.com on Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 03:43:34AM +0000

body:
Is he on the mailing list?

--Jimbo


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Well, all those sound like bannable offenses to me.
So let's discuss strategy.

Here's what we want: Michael not to do those things.

Here are our options:
1. Ignore him, and just clean up as needed
2. Agitate for a ban

I think in this case option #1 will work better,
because after a while, his anti-social behavior
will taper off (see "Do not feed the trolls").

Option #2 is less likely to work, since he's liable
to change usernames.

Moral of the story: sometimes it's not effective
to fight fire with fire; it's better to be a wet
blanket or to let the fire burn itself out.

Unless someone else has a much better idea, I ask
you all to join me in option #1 for a week.

Uncle Ed

WikiKarma: soothing messages like this ;-)

-----Original Message-----

He's made up comments on talk pages and attributed them to others by
"signing" their name (the comments made the users seem to be rude, abusive,
etc). He's added links to a porn site on the year pages. He's added patent
nonsense about the imagined sexual activities of George Washington. And
yes, he's reverted fixes documented as accurate. See [[Crass]] and
associated talk page.

with apologies for the lack of grace and good humor,
lp (camembert)
WikiKarma: following Michael around


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Re: The Wikipedia file format

body:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:54:55 -0800, Toby Bartels
<toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:

> Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>
>> Magnus Manske writes:
>
>>> Why not "*.wiki"?
>
> Simplicity!
>
>> There is more than one wiki and no file format matches the other.  Thus:
>> "*.wikipedia".
>
> I originally used "wiki markup language" (WML) on the grounds that
> I wasn't going to distinguish between the different wiki markup
> languages.
>
But wouldn't most systems try and parse that as Wireless Markup Language?
Are there actually any three-letter combinations left unused by Mime types
and software data formats?

--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l]  Google search results

body:
On Fri, 2003-03-14 at 05:53, Dan Koehl wrote:
> I suppose there migt be possible to remove Google from action=edit things in the robot.txt? That must be the most effective global way of preventing Google to index action pages. -- Dan Koehl

You mean like this, like we've done for months?

  # robots.txt for http://www.wikipedia.org/

  User-agent: *
  Disallow: /wiki/Special:Maintenance
  Disallow: /w/

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: what's going on with wikipedia ?
	(googlebot)

body:
On Fri, 2003-03-14 at 03:23, Pedro M.V. wrote:
> What about include a counter to see when the peak hours happen ????.

http://www.wikipedia.org/stats
http://fr.wikipedia.org/stats
etc

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Yeah, and it seems to working with Taku as well on the [[Emperor of Japan]] thing.

Uncle Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: tarquin [mailto:tarquin at planetunreal.com]

I'm in too.
I've responded on his talk page about his vandalism of articles last
night -- I've tried to not rebuke him but explain why it's not
acceptable behaviour.

this politeness and diplomacy stuff.... sheesh it's weird O_o\


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
> Yeah, and it seems to working with Taku as well on the [[Emperor of
Japan]] thing.

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Or:
...Catch more flies with shit than with sugar. It's a tossup! -~~~


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bonjour !

body:
Bonjour Brion,
I have the impression that someone is playing with my pseudo on the meta.
I have a idea of who, but it's not important.
The problem is I can't login, and I didn't received a new password even if I
ask to send one by mail.
It's fun, my identity robber improved my page on the meta :oP
And added me in the Legion of Trolls .
Can you please check it.

Aoineko


from_name: Tony Wilson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
He is treating other users with contempt. I've not been the victim of
it, so I have no personal axe to grind here, but there seems to be no
sign of a moderation of his behavior. He even treats Jimbo with
contempt. He tore up Jimbo's Yellow Card, time he got the Red Card and
was sent off for a week. If he's no better after that, we have real
work to do. We don't need the grief and substantial waste of time this
misguided and destructive individual produces.


from_name: Pedro M.V.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] WFF

body:
I love it !!!. I like WFF. Use it, please.  ;)

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Harris" <usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Re: The Wikipedia file format

> Richard Grevers wrote:
>
> > But wouldn't most systems try and parse that as Wireless Markup Language?
> > Are there actually any three-letter combinations left unused by Mime
> > types and software data formats?
> >
> Yes:  .wff for "wikipedia file format" seems not to be used by anyone
> else.  (And then there's the other meaning of wff for amusement's sake).
>
> -- Neil
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
I like the idea. One writes from left to right, this is, the left is the first thing one sees. This is specially important for newbies? seeing ( preview before save).

And a recommendation for the MoE (Manual of Edition) : "before press the preview or save page, copy the text you have writting". If there is any preview or edit downing, you are going to have the text stored locally in your computer and you can paste it again in the article when reediting;)

Regards.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kurt Jansson" <jansson at gmx.net>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 5:21 PM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] "Show preview before edit box and not after it" for anons

> Could we activate "Show preview before edit box and not after it" for
> anons? It seems more intuitive for me (I'm not sure it's even worth an
> option).
>
> Kurt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


body:
What about include a counter to see when the peak hours happen ????.

It could be a guide (perhaps every language wikipedia would have its own counter).

Regards.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Tulipan" <l.tulipan at mpwi.at>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:06 PM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: what's going on with wikipedia ? (googlebot)

>
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:19:36 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: what's going on with wikipedia ?
> > To: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> > Reply-To: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> >
> > On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > > It appears we're being Googled this morning.  Googlebot is very
> > > well-behaved, and I'm not sure if that's the problem or not, but
> >
> > Googlebot is fairly light (several seconds to 30 seconds between requests,
> > and follows our robots.txt restrictions - its getting articles, not
> > millions of diffs or contribs pages. It's only a fraction of total pages
> > being served). I have written them an e-mail asking if it's possible to
> > restrict the spidering to off-peak hours, though.
> >
> > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> >
>
> Well Brian, off-peak hours is a bit of problem with an international
> website, isn't it?
> When germany goes to lunch (12:00 CET - Central European Time), the
> people in San Francisco come home from the bar (3:00 AM PST - Pacific
> Standard Time).
> So I think google cannot really do anything about, except treating every
> sub-domain according to it's timezone. (otherwise people in europe will
> ALWAYS have a slow wikipedia, because google thinks that is off-peak
> time).
> Another idea which might or might not work is the Apache Module
> mod_throttle
> http://www.snert.com/Software/mod_throttle/
> You could give a general minimum idle time between requests or you could
> give penalties to db-heavy documents. But of course, this would make
> things still slower to some, but at least the server will take the load
> without coming close to a crash.
>
> Cheers
> Leo
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: what's going on with wikipedia ? (googlebot)

body:
A problem with google was experienced by me some days ago.

I tried to find "r?o" ( this is river ) and recieved the editing page of the article. This is, some information wasn?t in the page and there was a risk of mis-edition ( specially for newbbies).

Regards.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Again slow

body:
Is there a way to detect the slowing automatically by the server and automatically communicate it to the wikipedia operators by the program=???.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Giskart" <giskart at wikipedia.be>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 2:28 PM
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Again slow

> Wikipedia is again very slow.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] The Wikipedia file format

body:
LDC wrote:

>Toby Bartels wrote:

>>Since *.wml is no good for the reasons given, I support *.wiki.

>Umm, what's wrong with ".txt"?

I want to be able to see at a glance when a file is a wiki file.
Don't forget, I used .wml just to be cute --
don't establish .wiki formally for real!

-- Toby


from_name: julien tayon

subject:
*****SPAM***** [Wikipedia-l] Stop your stupid, hostile activity
 against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

body:
Le Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:31:34 +0100,
inspir?(e) "Albert Jacher" <albertan at op.pl> ?crivait la plume alerte :
> SPAM: -------------------- Start SpamAssassin results
> ---------------------- SPAM: This mail is probably spam.  The original
> message has been altered SPAM: so you can recognise or block similar
> unwanted mail in future. SPAM: See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for
> more details. SPAM:
> SPAM: Content analysis details:   (5.8 hits, 5 required)
> SPAM: RATWARE            (4.6 points)  Bulk email software
> fingerprints found in headers SPAM: PLING              (0.1 points)
> Subject has an exclamation mark SPAM: MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3 (1.1
> points)  'Message-Id' was added by a relay (3) SPAM:
> SPAM: -------------------- End of SpamAssassin results
> ---------------------
[...]
> How can you be so rude and stupid?!<br>
Entousiastm makes me behave this way [en theos asthmos in the breath of
god litteraly]
> Stop your hostile stupid activity against me!
Not agreeing with you bieng hostility, right ?
>
> Stop your hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!
ROTFL, man I just spilled coffee on my keyboard, I guess I have to buy a
new one.

>
> Who are you to judge me whether i am the Chosen by God Holy Prophet or
> not?!
Deciding one or the other would be NPOV (see next reply)
> ARE YOU GOD?!?!?!
Maybe I am, but I have *no objective point of view* to support it, so in
order to respect the deontology of wikipedia I will not state it.

>
> I do not suppose i represent YOU!
It is fair indeed. It is an objective point of view.  I do not represent
you either
>
> So stop deleting my articles and my text modifications.
I do not, but if *you* want explanation, we cannot give you any without
knowing if you have read the NPOV disclaim (I guess not)

Anyway, you already have won a GodWin point at the very beginning of a
troll, gosh you are wonderful. Thanks for the fun.
>

Jul
---
If you believe in evil how can you not believe in God
Socrates (the trial)
If you support God how can you not support evil
Setarcos (the liart)


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Again slow

body:
Pedro M.V. wrote:
> Is there a way to detect the slowing automatically by the server and
> automatically communicate it to the wikipedia operators by the
> program=???.

No problem of detecting, but why communicate to the operators? If there
is a high number of requests you have three possibilities:

1.) Keep the nummber of requests at a level the machine can handle fast.
  Usually a low number (100 in the past) and the number of rejected
connections increase (I think about 50% with the old settings).

2.) You try to answer as many requests as you can, even if the answers
are slow. The number of rejected requests is low. And the service looks
  slow but reachable. (175 request currently).

3.) More computation and network power for the service. This is usually
a problem for free services. Someone has to donate this power.

Nothing of this an operator can/should change "on demand", so why tell
him that the load is high (he knows about it, I'm sure)?

Smurf
--
  --- Anthill Inside! ---


from_name: Gareth Owen

body:
"Albert Jacher, SpeakerOfGod" <albertan at op.pl> writes:

> > Who are you to judge me whether i am the Chosen by God Holy Prophet or
> > not?!
>
> Deciding one or the other would be NPOV (see next reply)

Nah.  Until you offer some evidence that you're the Speaker of God.
NPOV is a even handed treatment of all available evidence,
and there is none for your claims.
--
Gareth Owen
       Who, incidentally, is President Of The United States
       and anyone who says otherwise is just biased.


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l]  Google search results

body:
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Lars Aronsson wrote:

> Dan Koehl wrote:
> > The second hit is : http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Elephantkeeper&action=edit
> > Do we want serchengines to list action=edit on all pages?
>
> No, that is not wanted.  That is why the page contains a
>    <meta NAME="ROBOTS" CONTENT="NOINDEX, NOFOLLOW">
> header (as you can see if you "view source").  Google usually respects
> this.  It is strange that they still index this edit page.

Checking a bit more, I get the impression that google does not save the
contents of pages with "noindex" in their robots meta, but does remember
their URL. This time that caused a hit because the text searched is also as
a word in the URL.

Andre Engels


from_name: Chuck Smith

subject: [Wikipedia-l] origins of foo

body:
> From some American native speakers
> I've heard this as "Don't be a Foo!",
> it is usually reinforced by a barrage
> of expletives. It seems more common
> in urban areas, although heard in rural areas
> also where it is usually believed to
> be used in imitation of typically violent
> crime scene investigation dramas
> in American television shows.

Actually, the origin of "foo" comes elsewhere:

Foo and Bar
Foo is the first metasyntactic variable commonly used.
It is sometimes combined with bar to make foobar. This
suggests that foo may have originated with the World
War II slang term fubar, as a abbreviation for fucked
up beyond all recognition. Foo was also used as a
nonsense word in the surrealistic comic strip Smokey
Stover that was popular in the 1940s and 1950s. See
also Foo Fighters for more foo etymology.

Taken from:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metasyntactic_variable

Chuck

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com


from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>
>Unless someone else has a much better idea, I ask
>you all to join me in option #1 for a week.
>
>
>
I'm in too.
I've responded on his talk page about his vandalism of articles last
night -- I've tried to not rebuke him but explain why it's not
acceptable behaviour.

this politeness and diplomacy stuff.... sheesh it's weird O_o

"la guerre psychologique, c'est la seule chose qui compte" -- /Asterix/

>
>
>


from_name: Albert Jacher, SpeakerOfGod

body:
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:41:51 +0100
From: julien tayon <julien at tayon.net>
To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: *****SPAM***** [Wikipedia-l] Stop your stupid, hostile
activity
 against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

Jul!
[...]

> Stop your hostile stupid activity against me!

Not agreeing with you bieng hostility, right ?

You are wrong. Nobody can agree with me now, because i start my teaching
activity as the Speaker of God. So if people do not know my ideas, they
cannot agree with me! Think logically!

That hostile and stupid behavior was deleting my text despite they had
absolutely no idea who i am and what i teach.

Just imagine that those who deal with topics about physics start to delete
from Wikipedia the work of those who deal with history or lierature.
They have not much knowledge about history, so every text about historical
events seems to them just garbage worth deleting.

The wikipedians who edit history repeatedly edit the historical topics and
the wikipedians who edit physics repetedly delete all the work of the
others.

Stupid and hostile activity is when an ignorant destroys the positive work
and effort of other wikipedians.

Do you understand now?

> Stop your hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

ROTFL, man I just spilled coffee on my keyboard, I guess I have to buy a
new one.

Stupidity is a reason for many losses and suffering, not only the loss
of a keyboard. That is why i want to teach people more wisdom. I want to
prevent such pity events.

> Who are you to judge me whether i am the Chosen by God Holy Prophet or
> not?!

Deciding one or the other would be NPOV (see next reply)

Is behaving stupid way the only way to be NPOV?!
Do you mean that ignoring the wisdom and the truth about the real world
is NPOV?
Why do you think that writing about fantasies of the ancient prophet is
NPOV and writing about wise teachings of the contemporary prophet is not?!

> ARE YOU GOD?!?!?!

Maybe I am, but I have *no objective point of view* to support it, so in
order to respect the deontology of wikipedia I will not state it.

According to Albertanism no human ever can be the God.
So i assure you that you are not the God.
If you think otherwise, then you have some mental disorders.

> So stop deleting my articles and my text modifications.

I do not, but if *you* want explanation, we cannot give you any without
knowing if you have read the NPOV disclaim (I guess not)

Jul!

What is not neutral in the folowing statement to justify deleting of all
the articles from Wikipedia:

"Albertanism is a modern religion created by Albert Jacher. It is based on
the General Theory of Wisdom and Stupidity by Albert Jacher.
Albert Jacher was born in Tarn?w, Poland, Europe in 1968-01-03 (catholic
calendar). "

What is false here? What is subjective and not neutral?

Greetings!

--
Albert Jacher, MD
Speaker of God, Holy Prophet
---
email:  albertan at op.pl | prophet at z.pl
www:    www.albertanism.freezope.org | www.religer.z.pl
usenet: http://groups.google.com/groups?group=alt.religion.albertanism
---
"Wakan Alo is the only real god. Albert is representative of the god Wakan
Alo."


subject: [Wikitech-l] Again slow

body:
I cannot do none of the above because i am a simple user :/

But, it?s important for me know that the operators ( or another person that can solve the problem, who?) can know about the slowing .

Regards.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Corell" <tcorell at igd.fhg.de>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Again slow

> Pedro M.V. wrote:
> > Is there a way to detect the slowing automatically by the server and
> > automatically communicate it to the wikipedia operators by the
> > program=???.
>
> No problem of detecting, but why communicate to the operators? If there
> is a high number of requests you have three possibilities:
>
> 1.) Keep the nummber of requests at a level the machine can handle fast.
>   Usually a low number (100 in the past) and the number of rejected
> connections increase (I think about 50% with the old settings).
>
> 2.) You try to answer as many requests as you can, even if the answers
> are slow. The number of rejected requests is low. And the service looks
>   slow but reachable. (175 request currently).
>
> 3.) More computation and network power for the service. This is usually
> a problem for free services. Someone has to donate this power.
>
> Nothing of this an operator can/should change "on demand", so why tell
> him that the load is high (he knows about it, I'm sure)?
>
> Smurf
> --
>   --- Anthill Inside! ---
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikitech-l]  Google search results

body:
Andre Engels wrote:

> Checking a bit more, I get the impression that google does not save the
> contents of pages with "noindex" in their robots meta, but does remember
> their URL. This time that caused a hit because the text searched is also as
> a word in the URL.

On susning.nu, I use the same <meta> tag, and my edit pages are never
indexed by Google.  In this case, I think this is a bug in Google.
Their information pages says to include the <meta> tag exactly like
this.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Stop your stupid, hostile activity against Holy Prophet
 Albert Jacher!

body:
On 2003-03-14 at 14:06 Albert Jacher, SpeakerOfGod wrote:

>Message: 10
>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:41:51 +0100
>From: julien tayon <julien at tayon.net>
>To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>Subject: Re: *****SPAM***** [Wikipedia-l] Stop your stupid, hostile
>activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

Jul!
[...]
>
>> Stop your hostile stupid activity against me!
>
>Not agreeing with you bieng hostility, right ?

You are wrong. Nobody can agree with me now, because i start my teaching
activity as the Speaker of God. So if people do not know my ideas, they
cannot agree with me! Think logically!

That hostile and stupid behavior was deleting my text despite they had
absolutely no idea who i am and what i teach.

Just imagine that those who deal with topics about physics start to delete
from Wikipedia the work of those who deal with history or lierature.
They have not much knowledge about history, so every text about historical
events seems to them just garbage worth deleting.

The wikipedians who edit history repeatedly edit the historical topics and
the wikipedians who edit physics repetedly delete all the work of the
others.

Stupid and hostile activity is when an ignorant destroys the positive work
and effort of other wikipedians.

Do you understand now?

>> Stop your hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!
>
>ROTFL, man I just spilled coffee on my keyboard, I guess I have to buy a
>new one.

Stupidity is a reason for many losses and suffering, not only the loss
of a keyboard. That is why i want to teach people more wisdom. I want to
prevent such pity events.

>> Who are you to judge me whether i am the Chosen by God Holy Prophet or
> not?!
>
>Deciding one or the other would be NPOV (see next reply)

Is behaving stupid way the only way to be NPOV?!
Do you mean that ignoring the wisdom and the truth about the real world
is NPOV?
Why do you think that writing about fantasies of the ancient prophet is
NPOV and writing about wise teachings of the contemporary prophet is not?!

>> ARE YOU GOD?!?!?!
>
>Maybe I am, but I have *no objective point of view* to support it, so in
>order to respect the deontology of wikipedia I will not state it.

According to Albertanism no human ever can be the God.
So i assure you that you are not the God.
If you think otherwise, then you have some mental disorders.

>> So stop deleting my articles and my text modifications.
>
>I do not, but if *you* want explanation, we cannot give you any without
>knowing if you have read the NPOV disclaim (I guess not)

Jul!

What is not neutral in the folowing statement to justify deleting of all
the articles from Wikipedia:

"Albertanism is a modern religion created by Albert Jacher. It is based on
the General Theory of Wisdom and Stupidity by Albert Jacher.
Albert Jacher was born in Tarn?w, Poland, Europe in 1968-01-03 (catholic
calendar). "

What is false here? What is subjective and not neutral?

Greetings!

--
Albert Jacher, MD
Speaker of God, Holy Prophet
---
email:  albertan at op.pl | prophet at z.pl
www:    www.albertanism.freezope.org | www.religer.z.pl
usenet: http://groups.google.com/groups?group=alt.religion.albertanism
---
"Wakan Alo is the only real god. Albert is representative of the god Wakan
Alo."


subject: [Wikitech-l] Again slow

body:
Pedro M.V. wrote:
> I cannot do none of the above because i am a simple user :/

I though so. (I'm simple user too;)

> But, it?s important for me know that the operators ( or another
> person that can solve the problem, who?) can know about the slowing.

I tried to explain, (hoping you read the privious mails about slow
requests (Subj:"Connection ratio", "Whats going on.."), that there are
limits to the solving even for operators.

>>
>> Nothing of this an operator can/should change "on demand", so why
>> tell him that the load is high (he knows about it, I'm sure)?

Possibly I missunderstood the question. Yes, an operator can see the
load of a machine, if he is online. And if he likes it, he can mail
himself the load if it increases too much.

But, this of course don't tell him if errors or rejects (connections)
happening. This is something the users have to tell him.

Smurf
--
  --- Anthill Inside! ---


subject: [Wikipedia-l] His Holiness Albert (Warning: off-topic)

body:
> > Stop your hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!
> ROTFL, man I just spilled coffee on my keyboard, I guess I have to buy a
> new one.

A new coffee or a new keyboard?

Andre Engels


from_name: Dan Koehl

subject: [Wikitech-l]  Google search results

body:
I suppose there migt be possible to remove Google from action=edit things in the robot.txt? That must be the most effective global way of preventing Google to index action pages. -- Dan Koehl

> Checking a bit more, I get the impression that google does not save the
> contents of pages with "noindex" in their robots meta, but does remember
> their URL. This time that caused a hit because the text searched is also as
> a word in the URL.
>
> Andre Engels


subject: [Wikipedia-l] new logo for black background...

body:
New logo designed for white/black back...
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from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Uncle Ed wrote:

> Here are our options:
> 1. Ignore him, and just clean up as needed
> 2. Agitate for a ban
>
> I think in this case option #1 will work better,
> because after a while, his anti-social behavior
> will taper off (see "Do not feed the trolls").
>
> Option #2 is less likely to work, since he's liable
> to change usernames.
>
> Moral of the story: sometimes it's not effective
> to fight fire with fire; it's better to be a wet
> blanket or to let the fire burn itself out.

OK, I can be a wet blanket - in fact I'm renowned for it ;)

For the info of those helping with the cleaning,
http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=64.
175.250.232 are, I think, the latest non-logged in changes.

sannse


subject: [Wikitech-l] Real stats! (Re: what's going on with wikipedia ?)

body:
On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Giskart wrote:
> Or http://nl.wikipedia.org/stats
>
> Thanks Brion! I am very happy to get some real stats.
>
> But the stop at 20 janauary...

I'm currently running the updates, but it will take a while to go through
3 months of back logs. (Should go faster as the load lightens up...)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Giskart wrote:
> > Or http://nl.wikipedia.org/stats
> >
> > Thanks Brion! I am very happy to get some real stats.
> >
> > But the stop at 20 janauary...

Ok, NL stats are up to date. (Note: there are missing chunks from 21-24
January and 17-20 February. Logs from those days appear to be lost...?)

English stats will be a while yet. :D

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Makoto & Guillaume

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bonjour !

body:
> On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 17:53, Guillaume Blanchard wrote:
> > Bonjour Brion,
> > I have the impression that someone is playing with my pseudo on the
meta.
> > I have a idea of who, but it's not important.
> >
> > The problem is I can't login, and I didn't received a new password
> > even if I ask to send one by mail.
>
> The email address was set to 'philippe1x1x at yahoo.com'; the password was
> set to the same as that of user 'Pour certains, pour d'autres'.
>
> I've reset your e-mail address and cleared the password, you should be
> able to request a new password.
>
> > It's fun, my identity robber improved my page on the meta :oP
> > And added me in the Legion of Trolls .
> > Can you please check it.
>
> Guillaume, please check the contribs:
>
http://meta.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=Ao
> ineko
>
> Which of these are/are not by you?

Not a single are by me ;o)
I always wrote un-logged on the meta.
My guardian angel is a little bit annoying ;o)

Aoineko

PS : Sorry to disturbed this list.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
Zoe: "Although I agree that the subject deserves an article, any article with this title cannot be NPOV."

Your statements although brief, contain usually at least one assumption. 1. That the subject being 'deserving' of an article is even close to being in question, and that 2. such a thing cannot be NPOV, simply because its controversial. It is what it is. Turks in the late 90s killed far more Kurds than the Serb "Christians" were killing Croat Muslims. The US sanctioned, supported, and suppressed it. It further has relevance because the US reportedly was in the process of selling out the Kurds to Turkey again, striking a deal to allow Turkey dominion over certain sections in Northern Iraq that border Turkey.

As for Danny's assertion, which Jim seconded, that this is no place for notes, I don't see how some structured notes are any different than an article in formation. There are two ways of sculpting something: By building up, (like clay) or breaking down (like chipping a marble). Im speaking as an artist, of course, but the analogy is valid, I think.  Of course, provided work gets done to article-ize the page. Hence, time, which I did not have in abundance, while I was taking notes. Not that I dont understand the usual concerns.
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Zoe: 1.  Michael makes up quotes on Talk pages and attributes them to people who never said them. 2. Micheal erases comments on Talk pages. 3. Michael refuses to address where he's getting his information from, and has said at least once, "It's none of your business." 4. His information is usually wrong, and, almost invariably, in bad English.  I don't have a problem with non-English speakers on the Wikipedia, but it would be nice if people noticed the corrections that others make in their work and don't keep making the same mistakes. 5. Michael is very confrontational when suggestions are made that he change his outlook.

Not to mention his Userpage quip:"Welcome to my work" - We need maybe a banner at the top of the RC page that pops up when he shows up - says "User Michael's edits are to be reverted." Might help clue more people in, and take the load off the overloaded. -SV

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subject: [WikiEN-l] AKFD articles

body:
Aids Kills Fags Dead article....

Why are these still here? Someone, anyone delete them now, please. I thought
these were dealt with long ago, and *someone, a reputable source of math,
keeps trying to revitalize the article, for *some "reason." Its been up for
a delete vote for two weeks now. Someone take care of it. Thank you. SV


from_name: Anthere

body:
--- Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Giskart wrote:
> > > Or http://nl.wikipedia.org/stats
> > >
> > > Thanks Brion! I am very happy to get some real
> stats.
> > >
> > > But the stop at 20 janauary...
>
> Ok, NL stats are up to date. (Note: there are
> missing chunks from 21-24
> January and 17-20 February. Logs from those days
> appear to be lost...?)
>
> English stats will be a while yet. :D
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Maybe... *cough*... FR as well?

Anthere :-)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
On Fri, 2003-03-14 at 18:52, Youandme wrote:
> Maybe... *cough*... PL as well?

On Fri, 2003-03-14 at 19:23, Anthere wrote:
> Maybe... *cough*... FR as well?

Take a number, my dears, everyone will get their chance. ;)

Now up:
  http://de.wikipedia.org/stats
  http://fr.wikipedia.org/stats

Generating:
  http://pl.wikipedia.org/stats

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: Japanese Emperors & broken links

body:
>Should
>our article on the Z boson be placed at [[Z boson (elementary particle)]]
>even though there isn't anything else called Z boson to disambiguate from?

I thought all Z particles were bosons? Isn't that kinda like calling an
electron an electron boson?

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


from_name: Mirko Thiessen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Stop your stupid, hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

body:
Hello,

I strongly recommend that we stop discussing with Albert Jacher on his
talk page. He is either the most bizarre troll I've ever seen, or we
must seriously fear for his mental health. It appears difficult to me
to discuss with someone proclaiming himself "speaker of God"; with
someone who claims that his thoughts are too wise to be understood by
Wikipedians. I am in favour of greatest tolerance towards other users,
but here should be a limit IMO. We should ignore him, even if that
means, that we embody the dark and the evil in "Albertanism".

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


from_name: Giskart

body:
Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote in
news:1047662753.8710.12.camel at frank.vibber.org:

> On Fri, 2003-03-14 at 03:23, Pedro M.V. wrote:
>> What about include a counter to see when the peak hours happen ????.
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/stats
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/stats
> etc
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Or http://nl.wikipedia.org/stats

Thanks Brion! I am very happy to get some real stats.

But the stop at 20 janauary...

--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


from_name: Tony Wilson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael - Uncle Ed's plan

body:
Ed wrote:
> So let's discuss strategy. Here are our options:
> 1. Ignore him, and just clean up as needed
> 2. Agitate for a ban

> I think in this case option #1 will work better, because after a while, his anti-social behavior
> will taper off (see "Do not feed the trolls"). Option #2 is less likely to work, since he's liable
> to change usernames.

It's worth a try, Ed. We can look at banning again if this doesn't
work. I'm in.


from_name: Youandme

subject: [Wikitech-l] Real stats!

body:
On 14 Mar 2003 at 16:45, Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Giskart wrote:
> > > Or http://nl.wikipedia.org/stats
> > >
> > > Thanks Brion! I am very happy to get some real stats.
> > >
> > > But the stop at 20 janauary...
>
> Ok, NL stats are up to date. (Note: there are missing chunks from 21-24
> January and 17-20 February. Logs from those days appear to be lost...?)
>
> English stats will be a while yet. :D

Maybe... *cough*... PL as well?
Youandme


subject: [Wikitech-l] Performance Disabled Time

body:
On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 00:49, Thomas Corell wrote:
> I looked in the source but did not found anything changing the
> $wgMiserMode Variable.

It's set (or not) in LocalSettings.php.

Currently:
  $n = date("H");
  if($n < 2 or $n > 14) $wgMiserMode = true;
  $wgMiserMode = true;

Uh, oops. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Performance Disabled Time

body:
Hello,

after adding a date() output in the 'perfdisabled' message (thanks to
Magnus for installing the patch) I got this mornig a interesting result
on Spezial:Lonelypages:

Versuchen Sie es bitte zwischen 02:00 und 14:00 UTC noch einmal
(Aktuelle Serverzeit : 08:08:43 UTC).
Translation(short): Try again between 2:00 and 14:00 UTC. (Current
Servertime: 8:00 UTC).

I looked in the source but did not found anything changing the
$wgMiserMode Variable. I think it will modified externally. And I think
I read on various pages that the server uses UTC time itself. Still the
output is mystic.
So can someone please give me a hint, whats wrong?
  (a) using simple date() is bad, because the server don't use UTC.
  (b) the external change of the $wgMiserMode Variable happens not at 2
and 14 UTC but at ... i.e. 14 and 2 UTC.
  (c) something completly different

Smurf
--
Tower: Flight A723, come in on nine o'clock.
A723: Sorry tower, can you give us another hint? We have only digital
watches!
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Recruits?

body:
ROFL! That youre interested in more mature things does not make you a nerd,
Littledan, and if it did, so what? What does nerd mean? The important thing
is to do what interests you. Being interested in something is a 'God-given'
gift, as some say -- So many people try to make themselves interested in
something they are in fact not, and this is pointless, and nothing comes of
it. So, just "Follow your bliss", or "do what comes naturally"       ... And
of course, 'hold onto your friends.'

> How could I tell people about wikipedia without sounding like a nerd? I'm
> trying to replace people's Warcraft addictions with Wikipeida (after all,
> which one is worse?) but everyone says, "That's so stupid! How are you
> addicted to an encyclopedia? You're a nerd!". What do I do? Is it wrong to
> try to get someone addicted to something?
>
> -LittleDan
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recruits?

body:
How could I tell people about wikipedia without sounding like a nerd? I'm
trying to replace people's Warcraft addictions with Wikipeida (after all,
which one is worse?) but everyone says, "That's so stupid! How are you
addicted to an encyclopedia? You're a nerd!". What do I do? Is it wrong to
try to get someone addicted to something?

-LittleDan

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


from_name: Axel Boldt

subject: [WikiEN-l] AKFD articles

body:
--- Stevertigo <stevertigo at attbi.com> wrote:
> Aids Kills Fags Dead article....
>
> Why are these still here? Someone, anyone delete them now, please.
> I thought these were dealt with long ago, and *someone, a reputable
> source of math, keeps trying to revitalize the article, for *some
> "reason." Its been up for a delete vote for two weeks now. Someone
> take care of it. Thank you.
> SV

1. Discussions are easier to follow if you use people's names.

2. There is no need to use scare quotes when referring to my reasons,
as I have stated them repeatedly here and on the talk pages. In short:
article titles should precisely describe article contents.

3. The claim that the page "has been up for a delete vote for two weeks
now" is incorrect. The article was added to that list on February 24 by
Infrogmation, later changed to a removal request for [['AIDS Kills Fags
Dead' slogan]], and that request was removed from the list on March 5
by Maverick149.

I readded the page [[AIDS Kills Fags Dead]] on March 15 to [[Votes for
deletion]], as I now think the title is in bad taste: it shows up when
people search for "AIDS" and does not make clear that the article
discusses the slogan rather than the thesis. That's also why I had
moved the material a while ago to [['AIDS Kills Fags Dead' slogan]].

The issue was originally brought to this mailing list by Zoe and Jtdirl
(aka James Duffy aka ST?D/??RE), and Jimbo approved the article under
[['AIDS Kills Fags Dead' slogan]] in
http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-March/001458.html

One day later, you created a stubby [[Anti-gay slogans]] and moved the
material there, the only justification being your edit summary
"(Removed text.. this just doesnt belong here.... sorry
Homophobes....)"
I moved the material back on March 13, and Jtdirl promptly reverted,
with edit summary "(We already decided this issue at least 3 times. Why
does Axel keep coming back and trying to undo what has been agreed?
reverting)".

I'm sick of these constant distortions and waste of my time.

More details at [[Talk:Anti-gay slogan]].

Axel

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] AKFD articles

body:
>Axel: I'm sick of these constant distortions and waste of my time.

Well, your communication was eagerly anticipated. I apologise for making it
somewhat personal; It was my point to illustrate in a direct way how this
would be condemned as a title, if it were about almost any other 'ethnic'
group. I also apologise for not having read all of the discourse in the
matter; there was far too much of it in my opinion, and I wrote the email
yesterday, in haste, after seeing the article re-animated, when it should
have been buried "in poor taste" weeks ago. I agree with Jim's comments that
the material itself merits discourse, but it be done under a legitimate and
general title.  I thought we all agreed to all of this on the talk. By
reanimating the title, you seemed to be saying one thing and doing another.

Furthermore, out of sensitivity to anti-homosexuals, I was hesitant to
rename it 'anti-gay' slogan, because people opposed to homosexuality don't
see homosexuality as 'gayness', nor do they view their opposition to the gay
lifestyle as 'phobic.'

And I greatly appreciate your attempts at reconciling this issue. I simply
think that because it was your energy, along with Cunc's that seemed to
oppose a loud and reasoned consensus, you perhaps wasted your own time in
coming to a natural compromise. -SV


subject: [WikiEN-l] AKFD articles

body:
--- Stevertigo <stevertigo at attbi.com> wrote:

> I also apologise for not having read all of the discourse in
> the matter; there was far too much of it in my opinion,

Fair enough. You are then of course in no position to claim "I thought
we all agreed to all of this on the talk" and write about "a loud and
reasoned consensus", which never existed.

> I agree with Jim's comments that
> the material itself merits discourse, but it be done under a
> legitimate and general title.

The second half-phrase is your opinion, and was not included in Jim's
comments.
http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-March/001458.html

Axel

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Recruits?

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

> How could I tell people about wikipedia without sounding like a nerd?
> I'm trying to replace people's Warcraft addictions with Wikipeida
> (after all, which one is worse?) but everyone says, "That's so stupid!
> How are you addicted to an encyclopedia? You're a nerd!". What do I
> do? Is it wrong to try to get someone addicted to something?

Leaving aside issues related to the War on Drugs, being addicted to
something can be a positive characteristic for some people; for most
others, unfortunately,  it bears the hallmarks of escapism or even
obsessive-compulsive disorder.  Really great accomplishments in this
world are often the product of a passion, but so too is the devastation
of some of history's greatest arch-villains, and so too are the ravings
of lunatics.  Those who lack the passions are too fearful of the risks
posed by the villains and lunatics to encourage new creativity.

Epithets like "nerd" are too easily taken as insults when they really
shouldn't be.  Sometimes, when you consider the person who is trying to
insult you with it, you can even see it as praise.  It's understandable
that you would want to share your joys with your friends, but the risk
is that of sounding like a fundamentalist preacher who has Wikipedia in
his hand instead of the Bible.  Replacing someone else's addictions can
have unforseen consequences, since an addiction sometimes fulfills
certain psychological needs.  It requires understanding the other
person's addiction, and where they're coming from, or perhaps letting
them know when material has been posted to Wikipedia that would give
them an advantage in their Warcraft play.  But that requires at least
enough understanding of the game to be able to recognize such "quality"
information, or even drawing upon other material about this that is
already on the net.  You may even find that as a non-addict your
game-play standards may be much higher than that of many of the addicts
-- that could make you an excellent advisor.

Eclecticology


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recruits?

body:
Stevertigo wrote:

>So many people try to make themselves interested in
>something they are in fact not, and this is pointless, and nothing comes of
>it. So, just "Follow your bliss",
>
See the works of Joseph Campbell, notably his "Power of Myth".

Ec


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
So in other words, if the article isn't something you care about, you have no interest in making sure that it's right?  Is this any way to run an encyclopedia?
Zoe
 Tony Wilson <list at redhill.net.au> wrote:Well, in line with the suggested policy, I've taken a look at a dozen
or so of his contrbutions. Trouble is, they are all things like "Liza
Minelli won the 1987 Grammy Award for the movie West Side Story". Well
I don't *know* if that's true or not. Nor - tell the truth - do I care.
I'll never care. I looked at a good couple of dozen Michael edits,
figured it would take me at least ten minutes per edit to work out of
they were factual or not, and I *still* wouldn't know if they were
suitable and relevant! I just don't have the contextual knowledge. So
sorry, T-CAT, I can't help you with this one.

See if you can't get him to start making edits to the history or
flora/fauna or natural history or aircraft articles: I'll be onto him
like a flash then!

sigh

_______________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Zoe wrote:

> So in other words, if the article isn't something you care about, you
> have no interest in making sure that it's right?  Is this any way to
> run an encyclopedia?
>
I would have a more benign reading of this.  We've all got limited time,
and it's much easier to check facts in our own specialties where we know
the literature and the appropriate web sites or even have key reference
works on our bookshelves.  What takes 5 minutes in a familiar subject
can easily take an hour in an unknown topic.  ... And we all would like
to have time left to make original contributions.

Eclecticology


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Recruits?

body:
In a message dated 3/15/2003 10:16:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
name12323 at hotmail.com writes:

> How could I tell people about wikipedia without sounding like a nerd? I'm
> trying to replace people's Warcraft addictions with Wikipeida (after all,
> which one is worse?) but everyone says, "That's so stupid! How are you
> addicted to an encyclopedia? You're a nerd!". What do I do? Is it wrong to
> try to get someone addicted to something?
>
>
Hey Little Dan,

First of all, I, and probably a lot of other people here think you are pretty
cool. After all, you are the youngest sysop so far in Wikipedia, and that is
already pretty cool.

Also, I think that when we say "addicted," we mean something very different
from being addicted to drugs or cigarettes. Basically, we mean that we like
it a lot--so much, in fact, that we spend a lot of time doing it.

Now let's look at what it is you like so much. Wikipedia is a chance to learn
a lot and a chance to teach other people too. It is a chance for all of us to
get smarter. That sounds like a pretty good thing to me--not a "stupid"
thing. And you are having fun doing it--probably more fun than you have
learning at school.

You may not be able to recruit all your friends to Wikipedia. What you can do
is show them what it is, and show them how what you are doing is interesting
and fun to you. Maybe then, some of them will want to try it. Some of them
won't. That's okay too. When they see how you are having fun with it though,
and doing some pretty cool things too, my guess is that they won't think you
are a nerd. They'll think you're pretty cool, like I do.

Good luck,

Danny
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] legal threat in eo wikipedia! / legxa minaco en la eo-Vikipedio

body:
No doubt Jim will be with you shortly.. but it doesnt seem like a good idea
to give out anyones personal info to anyone in any circumstances - If its a
legal matter, being investigated by legitimate officials, then there is a
process for that...

As far as libel- slander, and credibility... since the party has made a good
faith effort to change the info themselves, and that the user in question
continues to assert the point - it becomes necessary to ascertian the truth
of the point. Consider the Wikis potential ripples in a place like China,
where, even if the point is true, the government there might not want it be
known, - as in the case with Yahoo.

The material in point, seems to be with regard to the case of attribution of
a quote, criticising Giorgio SILFER... is there a source for this?  Can it
be verified? If so, then what right does anyone have to deny it? If its
inaccurate, then this constitues at best an error, and an apology would be
in order - if its deliberate misinformation, then the user should be banned,
or issue the said apology.

This is all just my opinion - from the POV of detachment from the potential
liability of being sued by some jackass. But WikiP cant logically be held
liable for issues of slander... or at least fear of a suit should not be
a'feard. ( [Wikipedia Talk:Slander and Libel] ) -Stevertigo

====
(Crossposted: wikipedia-l, intlwiki-l, wikieo-l)

I received the follow message in my user's page today:

Estimata Sinjoro, Bonvolu komuniki la adresojn al kiuj
sendi leteron per ordinara poŝto, por vi kaj por
s-ro Brion Vibber, kiuj estas indikitaj kiel responsaj
pri la redaktado de ĉi tiu enciklopedio. Bonvolu
komuniki la adreson, sed ankau la kompletan nomon, de
la persono kiu uzas la pseŭdonimon "Kriĉjo".
Manke de respondo, mi sendigos per advokato
registritan leteron je via atento ĉe la Centra
Oficejo de UEA en Roterdamo. La afable petitajn
informojn vi povas skribi ĉi-sube.
Antaŭdankante pro la respondo.

Rough translation:  Dear sir, please communicate to me
the adress(es) of who to send a letter by mail for you
and for Mr. Brion Vibber, who are indicated as the
ones responsible for the editing of this encyclopedia.
 Please communicate the address, but also the complete
name, of the person who uses the name, "Kricxjo".  If
you don't respond, I will send through my lawyer a
registered letter to your attention at the central
office of UEA in Rotterdam.  You can answer the nicely
requested information below.  Thanks in advance for
your response.

Now, I should clarify the situation.  Kricxjo has
added the following critique of Giorgio SILFER in his
biography: "La politika agado de Giorgio Silfer ne
estas universale aprezita. Dum la 90-aj jaroj, la
verkisto Jorge CAMACHO mokis lin en la satira verko La
Majstro kaj Martinelli (1993) kaj kritikis liajn
ideojn en La liturgio de la foiro. Jouko LINDSTEDT,
alia surskribinto de la Manifesto de Raŭmo,
akuzas Silfer-on de proponi per la vorto
"Raŭmiso" ideologion kiun li ne rekonas."
(Translation: "The political action of Giorgio Silfer
is not universally appreciated.  In the 90's, the
author Jorge Camacho mocked him in his satirical work,
The Master and Martinelli and critiqued his ideas in
The liturgy of the oven.  Jouko Lindstedt, another
writer of the Raum manifest, acuses Silfer of
proposing an ideology to the word "Raumism" which he
does not recognize.")

In response to this critique, an anonymous user put
the following in the discussion page: "Ni estas
studentoj de la kurso pri interlingvistiko kaj
esperantologio en la universitato de Torino. La
plenigo de kelkaj rubrikoj en Vikipedio estas parto de
nia studa taskaro. Ni faras tion lau kriterioj de
UTET-enciklopedio, kiuj supozeble estas sciencaj. Ni
ne havas tempon por diskuti pri ili, kaj ne deziras
polemiki kun aliaj. Se iu deziras bazi sin sur
onidiroj kaj emociaj reagoj, tio estas unuavice
problemo por tiu, kaj duavice por la fidindeco de la
Vikipedio. (el Torino, 13.III.2003)"

Translation: "We are students of the course of
interlinguistics and esperantology in the university
of Torino.  Working on the Wikipedia is part of our
homework.  We write them according to the criteria of
the UTET encyclopedia, which supposably is scientific.
 We do not have time to discuss them, and do not wish
to start a controversy.  If someone wishes to base
themselves on hearsay and emotional reactions, that is
first a problem for them, and then a problem for the
credibility of the Wikipedia."

Later the source was given for the critique and added
back into the article (the anonymous person had
deleted it).  The anonymous author again makes legal
threats claiming that Kricxjo is slandering his
reputation.  Brion then comments that threats from an
anonymous author are not very convincing and then I
received the above the threat on my personal page.

A few days ago, Kricxjo put the following comment on
the discussion page of the anonymous user:

"Mi proponas ke la uzanto 130.192.202.25 estu
forbarita. Li jam ŝanĝis artikolojn por
forigi ajnan mencion de kritika flanko, kaj lastatempe
laŭte kriis kontraŭ ajnaj kritikaj mencioj
en artikoloj Perla MARTINELLI kaj Giorgio SILFER,
kvankam neŭtrala biografio prezentas ĉiujn
flankojn. Hodiaŭ, li eĉ minacis jurprocezon
pro mia eta mencio de verko de Camacho La Majstro kaj
Martinelli, kvankam publikaj reagoj kontraŭ iu
homo - same kiel publikaj subtenoj - estas grava parto
de biografio. Homoj kiuj intence kaj daŭre
minacas la kunlaborecon kaj liberecon de Vikipedio
devus esti forbaritaj."

Rough translation: "I propose that the user
130.192.202.25 be banned.  He has already changed
articles which delete any kind of mention of a
critical side in the articles on Perla Martinelli and
Giorgio Silfer, although a neutral biography should
present every POV.  Today, he even threated legal
process because of a small mention of the work by
Camacho, The Master and Martinelli, although public
reactions against a person - the same as public
support - are an important part of a biography.
People who purposefully and continually threaten the
cooperation and freedom of the Wikipedia must be
banned."

So, I need legal advice.  Jimbo, should I give
Kricxjo's name and address to Silfer?  Should I
temporarily remove the critique from the biography
until the legal problem is solved?  Please reply
ASAP... and CC: your reply to my personal address as
well, msochuck at yahoo.com.

Thank you,
Chuck Smith

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEO-l] legal threat in eo wikipedia! / legxa minaco en la
 eo-Vikipedio

body:
On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 14:09, Chuck Smith wrote:
> (Crossposted: wikipedia-l, intlwiki-l, wikieo-l)
>
> I received the follow message in my user's page today:

(To clarify, said message was signed Giorgio Silfer, the person whose
biography page is in dispute.)

Jen mia respondo:

> Estimata d-ro Silfer:
>
> Nia politiko de privateco postulas, ke mi kiel serviloadministranto ne
> rajtas disdoni personajn informojn pri niaj vizitantoj
> (retposxtadreson -- se donita -- kaj laste uzatan IP-adreson) sen aux
> ties eksplicita permeso aux klara evidenco de friponado aux
> malbonintenco.
>
> Kiel vi versxajne jam scias, [[Vikipedio]] estas kunverkata projekto;
> mi invitas vin provi afable intertrakti por krei artikolojn kiuj pli
> bone, klare, informplene, kaj neuxtrale traktas la disputatajn aferojn
> ol la nunaj.
>
> Se vi ial bezonas ''mian'' posxtadreson, bonvolu retposxti al mi cxe
> brion at pobox.com kaj mi gxin volonte donos private.
>
>-- Brion VIBBER (mi diras nur por mia parto, ne por tiu de Chuck)

rough translation:

Esteemed Dr. Silfer:

Our privacy policy requires that I, as system administrator, can't give
out our visitors' personal information (e-mail address -- if given --
and last used IP address) without either that person's explicit
permission or clear evidence of troublemaking or ill intent.

As you probably already know, Wikipedia is a collaborative project; I
invite you to try to work together in good faith to create articles
which treat the disputed subjects better, more clearly, more
informatively, and more neutrally than the current ones.

If for some reason you need _my_ mailing address, please e-mail me at
brion at pobox.com and I'll gladly give it.

-- Brion VIBBER (I speak only for myself, not for Chuck)

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from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Old Bug: "<!-- ... -->" -> "<p>" (Re: New Bug: Newline within a
 Link)

body:
Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> writes:

> On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>> This is from my bug page http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User%3AKeichwa:
>> Let's learn [[Italian
>> language|Italian]].

> The bug's in your editor, I'm afraid. Wiki syntax doesn't cross
> linebreaks. For one thing, this helps contain damage from Markup Gone Mad;
> a lone opening tag that isn't closed turning an entire page into
> gibberish.

It's easy to detect those Markup Gone Mad occurrences; thus I'd like to
ask to be friendly to Unix editing conventions, too.

The bug listed above on http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User%3AKeichwa is
more serious, BTW.  Wikipedia's to-HTML converter happily add many a
lot
 elements when you comment out some lines;
cf. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabische_Sprache where this happens:

Input:
======
    [...] Verdopplung des mittleren Radikals.

    ''Siehe auch:'' [[Sprache]]

HTML output:
============
    [...] Verdopplung des mittleren Radikals.

    Siehe auch: Sprache

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Current events

body:
On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 16:55, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> Maybe we should create another sister-project to the wikipedia about current
> events. I was just thinking about it and there are major problems with
> usenet news groups and kuro5hin.org, so they are not reliable as a news
> source.  The monopoly-owned mass-media that we depend on are often biased
> and incomplete, but a wikipedia one would present each point of view as an
> OPINION, not a FACT.  We wouldn't leave out facts like they normally do to
> create a stronger bias. Wikiwiki would work very well for independant media.
>   What do you think?

Dan, have you seen http://www.indymedia.org/ ?

It's not wiki-like, but it is open-to-all-to-publish. A couple of points
of comparison:

* Indymedia has a very strong left-wing bias compared to what mainstream
American viewers are used to. It's quite refreshing after an evening of
FOX news ;) but there's a certain point of view that is presented. I
don't think that an article with a pro-Bush, pro-bomb-Iraq, or
pro-McDonald's stance would be well received there (though as far as I
can tell, they would publish it if one were to submit such a thing).

* Unlike wiki, published articles cannot be edited, only commented on.
(Of course, editable articles invariably lead to the occasional cry of
"censorship!" as some bit of drivel is removed by another editor.
Indymedia does at times hide articles, but keeps them available to those
who look for them rather than deleting them outright.)

In these respects, one might consider it even less reliable than usenet
or k5, where at least you're more likely to see a range of different
strong biases. ;)  The theory of wiki (at least, a la wikipedia) is that
many hands will knead an article into shape, correcting each others'
inaccuracies and balancing multiple biases with a neutral overview. Can
this model work for current events? I don't know; the model expects that
articles will be built over time by many different people, while a news
site has very different requirements, for high-quality work in the short
term.

Good articles on high profile events can be constructed quickly --
witness Wikipedia's [[Space Shuttle Columbia disaster]] -- but as far as
I know, it was built entirely from secondary sources, distillations of
news reports from more conventional media and NASA's press briefings.
While that's great for an encyclopedia, I don't know how pointful it
would be for a news site to report only what others have already
reported.

But, who knows?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject: [WikiEN-l] RK and [[Chipractic]]

body:
RK has gone on a tirade against the [[Chiropratic]] article, and is trying to make it out to be a dangerous religious cult (yes, he has said that).  In my attempts at trying to make his changes more NPOV, he's accusing me of vandalism, the usual canard issued by anyone who disagrees with someone else's changes.

Would someone with another eye please view both RK's and my changes and let me know if I'm out of line?  I never had a particular point of view on the subject until seeing the attacks RK is making on it.

Zoe

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Real stats! (Re: what's going on with wikipedia ?)

body:
Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> wrote in
news:Pine.GSO.4.33.0303141641470.1075-100000 at aludra.usc.edu:

> Ok, NL stats are up to date. (Note: there are missing chunks from 21-24
> January and 17-20 February. Logs from those days appear to be lost...?)

Thanks. Have you/can you/will you set it up so the stats are updateted
automaticly every x hours / x days ?

--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


subject: [Wikitech-l] Performance Disabled Time

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 00:49, Thomas Corell wrote:
  > It's set (or not) in LocalSettings.php.
> Currently:
>   $n = date("H");
>   if($n < 2 or $n > 14) $wgMiserMode = true;
>   $wgMiserMode = true;
> Uh, oops. ;)

Very dynamic setting :)

Ok, this LocalSettings.php is not the one in the cvs. Hard to find, then ;)

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [WikiEN-l] Current events

body:
Maybe we should create another sister-project to the wikipedia about current
events. I was just thinking about it and there are major problems with
usenet news groups and kuro5hin.org, so they are not reliable as a news
source.  The monopoly-owned mass-media that we depend on are often biased
and incomplete, but a wikipedia one would present each point of view as an
OPINION, not a FACT.  We wouldn't leave out facts like they normally do to
create a stronger bias. Wikiwiki would work very well for independant media.
  What do you think?

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New bug concerning lists (Re: Old Bug: "<!-- ... -->" -> "<p>")

in_reply_to:
<shof4ceghp.fsf@tux.gnu.franken.de> (Karl Eichwalder's message
 of "Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:34:10 +0100")

body:
Karl Eichwalder <ke at gnu.franken.de> writes:

> It's easy to detect those Markup Gone Mad occurrences; thus I'd like to
> ask to be friendly to Unix editing conventions, too.

And now th bug that annoys me most
(http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User%3AKeichwa):

2.1 Testing lists

2.1.1 Input

Let's look at these items:

* item 1
* item 2 is a little bit longish: it
takes more than one line.
* item 3

2.1.2 Output

Let's look at these items:

    * item 1
    * item 2 is a little bit longish: it

takes more than one line.

    * item 3

2.1.3 Expected Output

Let's look at these items:

    * item 1
    * item 2 is a little bit longish: it takes more than one line.
    * item 3

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- cut here -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I hope you will be able to fix this one -- it's rather important to me.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Recruits?

body:
> How could I tell people about wikipedia without sounding like a nerd? I'm
> trying to replace people's Warcraft addictions with Wikipeida (after all,
> which one is worse?) but everyone says, "That's so stupid! How are you
> addicted to an encyclopedia? You're a nerd!". What do I do? Is it wrong to
> try to get someone addicted to something?

Well, the question is, could they be useful contributors? I believe some
of them probably could, but you would have to know what their fields of
expertise are. If they care a lot about gaming, print out some of our
computer game related articles (we have quite a few) and tell them if they
would like to add something to that, they can do so easily.

But with anything you do, you will have to search out one-on-one
conversations. Trying to convince a group where peer pressure, alpha male
behavior etc. are involved is much harder than convincing a single
individual.

I think you will also have to learn to accept the fact that many of your
peers have been dulled by television, games and parental neglect and will
not be open towards intellectual pursuits. They have been trained for
instant gratification, and school is a perfect institution to dissuade
people from learning. That is not to say that you should not socialize
with these kids -- by all means do, but don't expect everyone to become a
Wikipedia editor.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Current events

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>Maybe we should create another sister-project to the wikipedia about current
>events. I was just thinking about it and there are major problems with
>usenet news groups and kuro5hin.org, so they are not reliable as a news
>source.  The monopoly-owned mass-media that we depend on are often biased
>and incomplete, but a wikipedia one would present each point of view as an
>OPINION, not a FACT.  We wouldn't leave out facts like they normally do to
>create a stronger bias. Wikiwiki would work very well for independant media.
>   What do you think?

I think we should go further still and shoot for the ultimate goal of
creating "Wikimedia." That's media with an "m." It would use
Wiki-style rules to enable public participation in the creation and
editing of all kinds of media: encyclopedias and other reference
works, current news, books, fiction, music, video etc. Like current
broadcast media, it would have differentiated "channels" and
"programs," each with self-selecting audiences. Unlike current media,
however, the audience would also be actively involved in creating its
own programming, instead of merely passively watching it.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Chuck Smith

body:
(Crossposted: wikipedia-l, intlwiki-l, wikieo-l)

I received the follow message in my user's page today:

Estimata Sinjoro, Bonvolu komuniki la adresojn al kiuj
sendi leteron per ordinara poŝto, por vi kaj por
s-ro Brion Vibber, kiuj estas indikitaj kiel responsaj
pri la redaktado de ĉi tiu enciklopedio. Bonvolu
komuniki la adreson, sed ankau la kompletan nomon, de
la persono kiu uzas la pseŭdonimon "Kriĉjo".
Manke de respondo, mi sendigos per advokato
registritan leteron je via atento ĉe la Centra
Oficejo de UEA en Roterdamo. La afable petitajn
informojn vi povas skribi ĉi-sube.
Antaŭdankante pro la respondo.

Rough translation:  Dear sir, please communicate to me
the adress(es) of who to send a letter by mail for you
and for Mr. Brion Vibber, who are indicated as the
ones responsible for the editing of this encyclopedia.
 Please communicate the address, but also the complete
name, of the person who uses the name, "Kricxjo".  If
you don't respond, I will send through my lawyer a
registered letter to your attention at the central
office of UEA in Rotterdam.  You can answer the nicely
requested information below.  Thanks in advance for
your response.

Now, I should clarify the situation.  Kricxjo has
added the following critique of Giorgio SILFER in his
biography: "La politika agado de Giorgio Silfer ne
estas universale aprezita. Dum la 90-aj jaroj, la
verkisto Jorge CAMACHO mokis lin en la satira verko La
Majstro kaj Martinelli (1993) kaj kritikis liajn
ideojn en La liturgio de la foiro. Jouko LINDSTEDT,
alia surskribinto de la Manifesto de Raŭmo,
akuzas Silfer-on de proponi per la vorto
"Raŭmiso" ideologion kiun li ne rekonas."
(Translation: "The political action of Giorgio Silfer
is not universally appreciated.  In the 90's, the
author Jorge Camacho mocked him in his satirical work,
The Master and Martinelli and critiqued his ideas in
The liturgy of the oven.  Jouko Lindstedt, another
writer of the Raum manifest, acuses Silfer of
proposing an ideology to the word "Raumism" which he
does not recognize.")

In response to this critique, an anonymous user put
the following in the discussion page: "Ni estas
studentoj de la kurso pri interlingvistiko kaj
esperantologio en la universitato de Torino. La
plenigo de kelkaj rubrikoj en Vikipedio estas parto de
nia studa taskaro. Ni faras tion lau kriterioj de
UTET-enciklopedio, kiuj supozeble estas sciencaj. Ni
ne havas tempon por diskuti pri ili, kaj ne deziras
polemiki kun aliaj. Se iu deziras bazi sin sur
onidiroj kaj emociaj reagoj, tio estas unuavice
problemo por tiu, kaj duavice por la fidindeco de la
Vikipedio. (el Torino, 13.III.2003)"

Translation: "We are students of the course of
interlinguistics and esperantology in the university
of Torino.  Working on the Wikipedia is part of our
homework.  We write them according to the criteria of
the UTET encyclopedia, which supposably is scientific.
 We do not have time to discuss them, and do not wish
to start a controversy.  If someone wishes to base
themselves on hearsay and emotional reactions, that is
first a problem for them, and then a problem for the
credibility of the Wikipedia."

Later the source was given for the critique and added
back into the article (the anonymous person had
deleted it).  The anonymous author again makes legal
threats claiming that Kricxjo is slandering his
reputation.  Brion then comments that threats from an
anonymous author are not very convincing and then I
received the above the threat on my personal page.

A few days ago, Kricxjo put the following comment on
the discussion page of the anonymous user:

"Mi proponas ke la uzanto 130.192.202.25 estu
forbarita. Li jam ŝanĝis artikolojn por
forigi ajnan mencion de kritika flanko, kaj lastatempe
laŭte kriis kontraŭ ajnaj kritikaj mencioj
en artikoloj Perla MARTINELLI kaj Giorgio SILFER,
kvankam neŭtrala biografio prezentas ĉiujn
flankojn. Hodiaŭ, li eĉ minacis jurprocezon
pro mia eta mencio de verko de Camacho La Majstro kaj
Martinelli, kvankam publikaj reagoj kontraŭ iu
homo - same kiel publikaj subtenoj - estas grava parto
de biografio. Homoj kiuj intence kaj daŭre
minacas la kunlaborecon kaj liberecon de Vikipedio
devus esti forbaritaj."

Rough translation: "I propose that the user
130.192.202.25 be banned.  He has already changed
articles which delete any kind of mention of a
critical side in the articles on Perla Martinelli and
Giorgio Silfer, although a neutral biography should
present every POV.  Today, he even threated legal
process because of a small mention of the work by
Camacho, The Master and Martinelli, although public
reactions against a person - the same as public
support - are an important part of a biography.
People who purposefully and continually threaten the
cooperation and freedom of the Wikipedia must be
banned."

So, I need legal advice.  Jimbo, should I give
Kricxjo's name and address to Silfer?  Should I
temporarily remove the critique from the biography
until the legal problem is solved?  Please reply
ASAP... and CC: your reply to my personal address as
well, msochuck at yahoo.com.

Thank you,
Chuck Smith

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: Current events

body:
Sheldon Rampton wrote:
>I think we should go further still and shoot for the
>ultimate goal of creating "Wikimedia." That's media
>with an "m." It would use Wiki-style rules to enable
>public participation in the creation and editing of all
>kinds of media: encyclopedias and other reference
>works, current news, books, fiction, music, video etc.
>Like current broadcast media, it would have
>differentiated "channels" and "programs," each with
>self-selecting audiences. Unlike current media,
>however, the audience would also be actively
>involved in creating its own programming, instead
>of merely passively watching it.

Way to go Sheldon! I've been raking my brain for months trying to figure out a
good name for the non-profit / umbrella organization. "Wikipedia Foundation"
was a placeholder but the "WikiPedia" part didn't seem to work for me since
we now have Wiktionary, will (hopefully soon) be launching the
yet-to-be-named source text wiki, and we will almost certainly expand into
the textbook arena in the next few years (with fiction to follow behind
that). So Wikimedia is perfect (so perfect that I just registered
wikimedia.org and will transfer that to the Foundation when it is set-up)!

However, at this point in time, we simply do not have the resources to do real
news reporting (which isn't simply rewriting news reports by others but
involves expensive primary research, travel and interviewing). But until/if
we do, our process of updating Wikipedia in near real-time as history unfolds
will do just fine.

As a matter of fact this is one of the /big/ reasons for our success; many
people are very interested in current events so they write encyclopedia
articles that reflect this. It is also no cooincidence that whenever there is
a hugely important current event that Wikipedia gets a surge of traffic and
new contributors. This is a point that we are often complemented on and IMO
is the real edge we have over dead tree encyclopedias. So there is no reason
to divert these efforts to another project for a long time (if ever). Doing
so could hurt Wikipedia in profound way.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 11]]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events


from_name: Stephen C. Carlson

subject: [WikiEN-l] RK and [[Chipractic]]

body:
At 06:33 PM 3/15/03 -0800, Zoe wrote:
>RK has gone on a tirade against the [[Chiropratic]] article, and is trying
>to make it out to be a dangerous religious cult (yes, he has said that).  In
>my attempts at trying to make his changes more NPOV, he's accusing me of
>vandalism, the usual canard issued by anyone who disagrees with someone
>else's changes.
>
>Would someone with another eye please view both RK's and my changes and let
>me know if I'm out of line?  I never had a particular point of view on the
>subject until seeing the attacks RK is making on it.

In my experience, the revert is the wrong tool to use with RK.  It is
usually more effective to discuss the text on the talk pages and rework
his text.

On the other hand, I believe Zoe if she says that she has no particular
POV on chiropractic medicine because her comments and edits are consistent
with that.  This is why I am troubled by the following comments made in
edit explanations and on the article talk page in response to Zoe:

* "imporant facts that were deleted because Zoe was embarassed by them"
* "Until Zoe learns NPOV"
* "lying about facts that you are uncomfortable with"
* "Stop pushing this pseudoscientific religious belief as some sort of
  scientific fact."

It is my view that such personalizing remarks tend to hinder rather foster
progress toward a good NPOV article.  But then, so does a revert.

Also, what is the Wikipedia policy on block-quoting large amounts of text
from an advocacy group?

Stephen Carlson
--
Stephen C. Carlson                        mailto:scarlson at mindspring.com
Synoptic Problem Home Page   http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
"Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words."  Shujing 2.35


subject: [WikiEN-l] Michael

body:
Well, in line with the suggested policy, I've taken a look at a dozen
or so of his contrbutions. Trouble is, they are all things like "Liza
Minelli won the 1987 Grammy Award for the movie West Side Story". Well
I don't *know* if that's true or not. Nor - tell the truth - do I care.
I'll never care. I looked at a good couple of dozen Michael edits,
figured it would take me at least ten minutes per edit to work out of
they were factual or not, and I *still* wouldn't know if they were
suitable and relevant! I just don't have the contextual knowledge. So
sorry, T-CAT, I can't help you with this one.

See if you can't get him to start making edits to the history or
flora/fauna or natural history or aircraft articles: I'll be onto him
like a flash then!

sigh


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Chiropractic medicine article and Zoe

body:
Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> writes:
> RK has gone on a tirade against the [[Chiropratic]]
> article, and is trying to make it out to be a dangerous
> religious cult (yes, he has said that).

This is a distortion, and that I can only regard it as an
attempt to discredit me.  Grow up.  I made a number of
specific statements about medical science and history; your
problem is that you ignored the statements, and went on the
attack against me.

Zoe is angry because I added factual historical information
to this article that she is apparently embarassed by;
Chiropractic theory is an 18th century religious theory,
one of many created at that time which attempted to fuse
science and religion. (This is really not a shocking claim
for anyone read in this subject; this was a very common
phenomenon.)  According to the National Council Against
Health Fraud, both its beliefs and the way it indoctrinates
true believers fits the dictionary definition of a cult.
This is also how many medical doctors view the practice.
(Although I am not a medical doctor, I have taken a few
medical school classes with doctors.)

I did write that chiropractic medicine is considered to be
dangerous, and that it injures and kills some people every
year. That is a well-documented fact. Medical doctors and
scientists are aghast at the way that chirpracters injure
large numbers of people. I then backed this up with a large
list of medical citations about injuries and deaths.  Zoe's
response was to delete all of these facts. That action, I
hold, is a violation of our NPOV policy.

I also am bothered by the way that previous versions of the
article made no attempt to delineate between the
quasi-religious beliefs of chiropractic theory (which
attempts to treat many or all diseases by manipulating the
spine), and the legitimate medical art/science of spinal
manipulation, which restricts itself to treating a small
number of spinal problems through careful manipulation of
the spine.

I have already stated that I am willing to work with Zoe
and others, but we can't do any work as long as everything
new is ruthlessly deleted!

RK

=====
"I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous".
The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Matt M.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Feature request

body:
Hi,

I wonder if anyone else has thought of this, but while considering the pipe
trick ([[foo (bar)|]] = [[foo (bar)|foo]]) it occurred to me that one of the
places this would be most useful is in place names, a huge portion of which
are in the form [[Boise, Idaho]]. If it could be set up so that the pipe
trick could work with commas too ([[Boise, Idaho|]] = [[Boise,
Idaho|Boise]]), that would be very useful in a variety of situations. (It
wouldn't conflict with other uses of commas, since you just wouldn't have
any reason to use the pipe trick with them; or if, say, something had both
commas and parentheses, you could set it to just pipe the parentheses. If an
article had multiple commas, you could set it to hide everything after the
first one.)

What do you think?

Matt


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New bug concerning lists

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote in part:

>* item 1
>* item 2 is a little bit longish: it
>takes more than one line.
>* item 3

>I hope you will be able to fix this one -- it's rather important to me.

I certainly hope that this one does not get "fixed".
I hope that someday PediaWiki will recognise a lack of blank line,
not only next to headers but also next to lists, rules, etc,
as indicating that a feature is next to (or within) the paragraph.
This makes the output for natural to the editor,
as well as allowing for more nuanced effects.
(You can't do it with HTML, you need CSS, as with the headers.)

Is your offline editor really unable to handle long lines?
(I only remember emacs' being brought up,
but I edit wiki files with emacs all the time.)

In any case, these aren't bugs, but feature requests.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Current events

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>However, at this point in time, we simply do not have the resources to do real
>news reporting (which isn't simply rewriting news reports by others but
>involves expensive primary research, travel and interviewing). But until/if
>we do, our process of updating Wikipedia in near real-time as history unfolds
>will do just fine.

I certainly don't want to push Wikimedia to move into new areas any
quicker than it can. In practice, however, I think you may find that
you have more resources than you realize for reporting. IndyMedia
doesn't have a big budget for travel and so forth; it gets most of
its materials from people who live or travel on their own dime to the
places where they report, and they've been fairly successful. There
are IndyMedia centers in dozens, if not hundreds of cities now. It
would be nice to see some hybrid of Wikipedia and Indymedia, where
you get Indymedia's focus on current events and its system of local
centers, combined with the Wiki technique of peer review editing.

>So there is no reason
>to divert these efforts to another project for a long time (if ever). Doing
>so could hurt Wikipedia in profound way.

Actually, there *is* a reason. Wikipedia sometimes suffers from an
embarrassment of too many riches. It gets so much traffic that the
server bogs down. One way to achieve scalability might be to direct
visitors to different "channels". (Of course, that would require some
serious prior thought about how to avoid redundancies and
fragmentation.)
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

body:
Hi,

This already exists. It's called Indymedia : http://www.indymedia.org.

Yann

Le Dimanche 16 Mars 2003 09:33, Daniel Mayer a ?crit :
> Sheldon Rampton wrote:
> >I think we should go further still and shoot for the
> >ultimate goal of creating "Wikimedia." That's media
> >with an "m." It would use Wiki-style rules to enable
> >public participation in the creation and editing of all
> >kinds of media: encyclopedias and other reference
> >works, current news, books, fiction, music, video etc.
> >Like current broadcast media, it would have
> >differentiated "channels" and "programs," each with
> >self-selecting audiences. Unlike current media,
> >however, the audience would also be actively
> >involved in creating its own programming, instead
> >of merely passively watching it.

--
http://www.forget-me.net
Alternatives sur le Net
http://keys.indymedia.org/showkey.py?key=0A34CBDA
gpg --keyserver keys.indymedia.org --recv-key 0A34CBDA


list: sifter-l

source: wayback-mbox

from_name: Larry Sanger

subject: [Sifter-l] Where to go from here

body:
You might have seen on my user page

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Larry_Sanger

an explanation of why I no longer spend time on Wikipedia.  It follows
that I have also quit the Sifter project (or whatever you want to call
it).

I've made Magnus and Lee Sifter-l list admins.  (Jimbo's not on the list.)

--Larry (who is still underemployed--resume on request)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Feature request

body:
Matt M. wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I wonder if anyone else has thought of this, but while considering the pipe
>trick ([[foo (bar)|]] = [[foo (bar)|foo]]) it occurred to me that one of the
>places this would be most useful is in place names, a huge portion of which
>are in the form [[Boise, Idaho]]. If it could be set up so that the pipe
>trick could work with commas too ([[Boise, Idaho|]] = [[Boise,
>Idaho|Boise]]), that would be very useful in a variety of situations. (It
>wouldn't conflict with other uses of commas, since you just wouldn't have
>any reason to use the pipe trick with them; or if, say, something had both
>commas and parentheses, you could set it to just pipe the parentheses. If an
>article had multiple commas, you could set it to hide everything after the
>first one.)
>
>What do you think?
>
This is an interesting idea, particularly in the light of the debate
which once raged over the formatting of place names.  The one issue that
I would dispute in your proposal is in the question of multiple commas.
My instinct favours hiding everything after the last one, but that is a
detail that could be explored after there is acceptance of the basic idea.

Eclecticology


body:
Pedro M.V. wrote:

>But, he is quite stupid : it is fairly easy to find Brion's coordinates
>without problem (google and whois are your friend for those who know how
>to use them).
>
Brion and Chuck may be easy to find, but that may not be the case for
Kricxjo.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Current events

body:
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:

> At 08:25 PM 3/16/03 +0100, Pedro wrote:
>
>> I think this would be an attention (
>> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention)
>> principle : first the nowadays articles ( topics in the news).
>>
>> For me, the attention principles would be :
>>
>> 1. General before particular ( specific ).
>> 2. In the news topics before another ones ( this is over the 1st.
>> principle, if necessary).
>
>
> As a practical matter, lots of people are already doing this, but the
> other significant
> factor is that people will write about what they know and care about.
> Once in a while
> someone like me will take an hour to do online research for a quick
> article on
> something in the news (for example, I did a quick bio of the VP of
> Venezuela when
> he was briefly acting president), but I'm not suddenly an expert on
> the history or
> geography of Iraq.
>
> The beauty of Wikipedia is that it has room for people to follow lots
> of different
> interests, and sometimes that means that when something hits the news,
> the
> article is already there, written by someone who cared about that
> enough to
> write about it instead of about whatever was in the headlines that week.

I support the sentiments in Vicki's observation.  If most of us ran our
personal lives in the way we choose what to edit on Wikipedia we would
all be in serious trouble.  "Always leave something undone" is a
principle that works well in Wikipedia but not in one's personal life.
 I've consistently believed that there was a fractal component to
Wikipedia participation where all these seemingly random contributions
when viewed as a whole show evidence of some unifying pattern.

In an ideal world where our human resources are unlimited I would
support Sheldon's proposal, but in our real world my support must
remanin philosophical.  Each Wikipedia project competes with the others
(including those in other languages) for human resources.  Whenever that
happens each of us must make a decision about the allocation of the
fixed number of hours that we have available.  This can be easy when we
know nothing about the language of a new Wikipedia, or difficult when a
new project relates significantly to our personal interests.  From my
own perspective, I can only wish that Sheldon's new little Mendelbrot of
current events will some day find the appropriate connection with the
central structure.

Eclecticology