from_name: Monk

subject: [Wikitech-l] Templates 'whatlinkshere"

body:
Hello all.

There is one quite broad problem in Wikipedia. That's the problem, that
if the page is linked or included into template, it becomes listed on
"whatlinkshere" for all the pages that use this template.

It makes very long lists of "whatlinkshere" (for example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Image:Soccerball.svg,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:If), while
almost no pages directly link to these pages. In result, it is almost
impossible to find the pages that really use respective templates or
images (to fix or to view use example).

The question is: should this problem be considered feature (and there
are important reasons for it to act like it does), or a bug (and it
could be fixed in foreseeable future)?

Thanks.!


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: GerardM

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wiki China: Problem with the site,
	att ention and action from the board requested

body:
On 10/30/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
> Han Dao wrote:
>
> >We should not sink to the low level that the teenage crackers dude.
> Hacking
> >is not ethical.
> >
> I would agree with you on that. But what is currently happening and what
> some forces in China are doing is not ethical either. I am not saying we
> should do these things ourselves, nor do I want to encourage anybody to
> do this. I do say though that there is no reason why we can not have a
> good smirk at this :) , we are literally being ****ed over by a
> dictatorial system which is striving for total mindcontrol of its
> population, somthing the Thaksin administration is copying in Thailand
> currently, and we are doing nothing about it really so yes I hate
> hacking, but oen the other hand it is great to see some resistance. And
> I would love to know what is written there.
>
> I personally have the feeling that the Chinese govt or whichever forces
> in the mainland are responsible for this should be made to loose face
> about this issue by now. We have been polite with them many times. It
> didn't work. I personally feel that we should make this an about face
> issue. So I personally call on the board to start taking this issue to a
> broader audience.
>
> Walter/Waerth

Hoi,
When you want to make it a "face" issue, it has to be a "face" issue for
those who try make wikipedia their own in China and perhaps make some money
out of it. If you want to get more out of it, you are reaching for the moon.
With the previous instances of a block, it took some time before access was
restored. Suggesting that this was not done by quiet and effective
diplomatic ways seems to me like a misrepresentation.. When a storm has
flattened the reeds, it takes the reeds some time to resume its position,
the trees however that have fallen stay down. (not suggesting that this is
an old Chinese saying, but it comes to mind .. :) )

Thanks,
GerardM


list: foundation-l

from_name: Wayne Samuel

subject: [Foundation-l] Starting a New Wiki based project

body:
Hello,

I would like to have a discussion with someone in the foundation team
about setting up a new project around travel.

How might I take the discussion forward?

Kind regards
Wayne Samuel


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Multilingual error messages

body:
> Well, as I just discovered looking for something else, you can always
> "use the source, look":
> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia/tools/downtime/language-support.php?view=markup

Sorry for replying to this ages-old message, but I have the following
comments:

> function fmttimeen($hour) {
> 	return "$hour:00 UTC";
> }
>
> function fmttimepl($hour) {
> 	$hour += 2;
> 	return "${hour}:00 CET";
> }

This is wrong, CET is UTC+1, not +2.

> function fmttimenl($hour) {
> 	$hour += 2;
> 	return "$hour uur Nederlandse/Belgische tijd";
> }

This is correct only half the year. (If the Netherlands and Belgium
switch at the same time as the UK, it became wrong today.)

Timwi


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] 9/11wiki content sharing

body:
Angela wrote:
 > How about just moving the whole wiki there rather than copying it
page by page?
>
> I see no point in keeping in what was supposed to be an archive of
> content that had to be removed from the English Wikipedia in an
> editable form as a unwanted pseudo-Wikimedia project. It is not well
> maintained, as a check of the main page's history will show before I
> resorted to protecting it. Considering the difficulty in getting any
> new project approved by Wikimedia, including a lot of very worthwhile
> ideas, I don't see the point in keeping one controversial,
> monolingual, biased wiki that has no community.
>
> I really think this would be an ideal opportunity to find a new home for it.

I could be easily persuaded to support this move.

--Jimbo


subject: [Foundation-l] 9/11wiki content sharing


from_name: Robert Scott Horning

subject:
[Juriwiki-l] Re: [Foundation-l]
	Trademark	violation	of	our	'MediaWiki' mark

body:
Delirium wrote:

> Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure where you are looking, but any time you use a trademark
>> that isn't yours, you need to put a disclaimer in the advertisement
>> or documentation that the trademark belongs to somebody else.
>
>
> That's just preposterous, and there is no such legal requirement.  If
> there were, we'd be already violating it on mediawiki.org, which uses
> the term "MySQL" numerous times without ever once disclaiming that
> "MySQL(r) is a registered trademark of MySQL AB".
>
> -Mark
>
Perhaps "we" are violating trademark law here?  Before you claim flat
out there is no legal requirement, make sure you can quote chapter and
verse on the subject.  I'm also claiming that out of simple respect when
it is a registered trademark, we should link to or at least make a
simple disclaimer on similar pages.  See, for example, a disclaimer I
put on the 1911 Encyclopaedia Project for similar sorts of trademark usage:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica%3AProject_Disclaimer

Perhaps I'm being paranoid about this, but in this case I'm
acknowledging that the trademark does in fact exist, and that it is not
owned by the Wikimedia Foundation.  On Wikipedia, when there are
trademarks being used, it is usually directly tied to the article about
the company who owns the trademark, with even web links to that company
being very typical.

I know this is naval gazing, but if we are getting off in a huff about
somebody abusing a Wikimedia Foundation trademark, maybe we need to also
need to improve the trademark standard usage on Wikimedia projects as well?

--
Robert Scott Horning


from_name: Nuno Lopes

subject: [Wikitech-l] integrate authentication

body:
Hello,

I'm trying to get a couple of PHP softwares together by sharing their
authentication methods.
Currently I'm using the fudforum api for authenticating users through the
different programs, so that they can acess all programs with one login, one
time, one cookie.

What I would like to know is where should I look to modify mediawiki? in
which files/functions should I touch in order to get mediawiki authenticate
users though fudforum data.

Thanks in advance,
Nuno Lopes


list: wikien-l

from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webcomics/Deletion again

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

JAY JG stated for the record:
>> From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
>>
>> Mark Gallagher stated for the record:
>> >
>> > G'day Sean,
>> >
>> > I know the hyperbole on this list comes thick and fast most of the
>> time,
>> > but when readers start to seriously wish they could tag as {{nonsense}}
>> > entire paragraphs of one's emails, it's time to think a little before
>> > spewing crap.
>>
>> When a system is so destructively broken that numerous members of the
>> community realize that it is impossible to repair and begin calling for
>> its complete abolition (and use apt phrases such as "dynamite enema"),
>> it is time for that system's defenders to question their fanaticism.
>
>
> The hyperbole regarding AFD's "brokenness", including terms like
> "fanaticism" applied to its supporters, is not a strong argument that it
> is actually broken.
>
> Jay.

Strong arguments proving its brokenness are laid out in detail elsewhere
and need not be repeated.  Observation of the fanaticism of those
denying that plethora of argument, on the other hand, is perennial.

- --
 Sean Barrett
 sean at epoptic.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFDZYggMAt1wyd9d+URAi8XAJsFsSWUDFGEIiB+1/L+1dqwTGyphACfcEzE
WFSnYapxYnjm9deQhkfI3hI=
=KJc7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: uninvited at nerstrand.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Previews

body:
In my experience, this bug manifests itself only when one has multiple
tabs or windows open.

Then, it is necessary to press whatever button initiates a post action
on two or more windows or tabs, without waiting for the prior post to
complete.  This is only possible when the site is responding slowly.  I
don't believe I've had the initial problem occur with any pages other
than the delete confirmation page, though I could be mistaken.

Even then, the action will work much of the time, perhaps because the
posts happened to be processed in the proper sequence.

Once the first error occurs, other forms will not post properly unless
they are reloaded first.

Since the cookies are shared across browser windows, with multiple
apaches being round robinned by the squids, there is no way to
guarantee that the posts will arrive in the order in which they were
sent, and there is no way to guarantee that an updated session cookie
takes effect prior to the subsequent post.  Therefore, any attempt at
session control is bound to be a fruitiful source of bugs which cannot
then be reproduced in a typical test environment where there is only
one apache and no lag.

My MW test bench is now badly out of date but I suppose I could get the
latest from CVS and look for it if there is interest.

uc


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webcomics/Deletion again

body:
>From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
>
>Mark Gallagher stated for the record:
> >
> > G'day Sean,
> >
> >> Note that the disruption is of /Wikipedia/.  It is impossible to
> >> disrupt /AfD/ with deletionism, no matter how lunatic -- that entire
> >> subsystem is maliciously designed to support and encourage lunatic
> >> deletionism.
> >
> >
> > I know the hyperbole on this list comes thick and fast most of the time,
> > but when readers start to seriously wish they could tag as {{nonsense}}
> > entire paragraphs of one's emails, it's time to think a little before
> > spewing crap.
>
>When a system is so destructively broken that numerous members of the
>community realize that it is impossible to repair and begin calling for
>its complete abolition (and use apt phrases such as "dynamite enema"),
>it is time for that system's defenders to question their fanaticism.

The hyperbole regarding AFD's "brokenness", including terms like
"fanaticism" applied to its supporters, is not a strong argument that it is
actually broken.

Jay.


from_name: Snowspinner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webcomics/Deletion again

body:
On Oct 30, 2005, at 7:09 PM, JAY JG wrote:
>
> The hyperbole regarding AFD's "brokenness", including terms like
> "fanaticism" applied to its supporters, is not a strong argument
> that it is actually broken.
>

The fact that it demonstrably drives off good-faith contributors,
however, is.

-Phil Sandifer (Snowspinner)


from_name: Angela

body:
On 10/30/05, Wayne Samuel <waynesamuel at mac.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I would like to have a discussion with someone in the foundation team
> about setting up a new project around travel.
>
> How might I take the discussion forward?

There are some details at
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_new_projects> on how to
propose a new project, but you might want to look at
http://www.wikitravel.org first (which is not a Wikimedia project) to
see if that covers what you were planning.

Angela.


from_name: Michael Bimmler

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: French-speaking people needed for translation

body:
Thanks a lot!
Michael

2005/10/29, Ashar Voultoiz <hashar at altern.org>:
>
>
>
> Hello Michael,
>
> I posted a quick french translation ;)
>
> --
> Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
> http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
> IM: hashar at jabber.org ICQ: 15325080
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
An eternity is very, very long, especially towards the end


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: More wikis moved to Seoul cluster

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Question: Shouldn't id.wiki be moved at some point, seeing as it
> serves a similar geographical area to but is bigger than ms.wiki?
>
> Mark

Routing in Asia is very unpredictable. The larger the distance, the higher
the chances of the request being routed via the US. In our tests, Malaysia
was consistently routed via Japan to Korea, whereas as Indonesia was usually
routed via the west coast of America. PNG has only satellite links, ping
times to it were largely independent of the source. The commercial ISPs in
Australia gave a slightly faster RTT to yaseo than to pmtpa, but the
academic network, AARNET, consistently routed via America. Our tests for
India showed unstable routing. Sometimes pmtpa was faster, sometimes knams,
sometimes yaseo.

As a result, I don't think we should move anything south of Malaysia, or
anything west of China, to yaseo

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wiki China: Problem with the site,	attention and
	action from the board requested

body:
Angela wrote:

>>Is there any possibility from the board to take any action? A mention of the
>>source and GFDL is in my oppinion the fundamental action, which they should
>>take.
>>
>>
>
>I might be better for someone to write to them in Chinese. Is there
>any sign as to whether they are doing this maliciously or whether they
>simply don't understand the terms of the license? Are any of the
>people working on the site known to the Chinese Wikipedia community?
>
>Angela.
>
I am terribly sorry Angela but do you really feel they could do this in
error?????????????????

Blocking us the moment they go in the air with copied content from us
?????????

Accident?????????

You should life in a country with a (semi)dictatorship for a while ....
you will know better than giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Walter/Waerth

....... and yes Thailand is slowly becoming a dictatorship unfortunately


from_name: Puddl Duk

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Previews

body:
> >> Half the time I click on "Save Page" the next screen is a "Preview"
> >> (and my edits are not yet saved).
> >
>
> This bug is associated with a feature which prevents submission of forms by
> offsite javascript. For example, if a hacker wanted a page deleted, they
> could write some javascript, put it up on their website, then post a link to
> it on the user talk page of an administrator. The bug involved makes some
> unknown random event during an ordinary form submission appear essentially
> identical to this abuse scenario.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>

I had been wondering if this was just subtle encouragement for people
to use the preview button more :)


from_name: Delirium

subject:
[Juriwiki-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Trademark
	violation	of	our	'MediaWiki' mark

body:
Robert Scott Horning wrote:

> I'm not sure where you are looking, but any time you use a trademark
> that isn't yours, you need to put a disclaimer in the advertisement or
> documentation that the trademark belongs to somebody else.

That's just preposterous, and there is no such legal requirement.  If
there were, we'd be already violating it on mediawiki.org, which uses
the term "MySQL" numerous times without ever once disclaiming that
"MySQL(r) is a registered trademark of MySQL AB".

-Mark


from_name: Hauke Zuehl

subject: [Wikitech-l] Help: Search does not work

body:
Hi :)

I updated my wiki from 1.3 to latest 1.4. Now I notice that search does not
work. For those who want to see go to http://www.tuxfutter.de/wiki/Hauptseite
but maybe someone else has a hint.

Thanks and kind regards,
Hauke


body:
Angela wrote:

>On 10/30/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I am terribly sorry Angela but do you really feel they could do this in
>>error?????????????????
>>
>>
>
>I'm unable to see the site, so I'm assuming good faith. I was
>previously getting timeouts, then 404 errors, and now all I see is the
>standard "This wiki does not exist yet" error message, with the logo
>from meta - the exact same page you get if you go to
>http://tokipona.wikinews.org/ for example.
>
>Angela.
>
Yep I get that to ..... maybe they did something to stop foreign IP's
from entering the site? And redirect them to wikipedia instead?

Walter


subject:
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Wikipedia-l]_Wiki_China:_Problem_with_the_site,
	=09att?= ention and action from the board requested

body:
Ting Chen wrote:

>The situation escalated today morning. Someone, probably some chinese
>Wikipedian hacked the site of Wiki China and deformated the homepage.
>Probably they even deleted some content. At first they placed an
>announcement we were just formulating in the chinese Wikipedia. You can see
>the announcment and the deformed homepage of Wiki China here:
>
>http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:%E7%BB%B4%E5%AE%A2%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD
>
>This action is a deed of one or several people. It does not represent the
>oppinion of the chinese wikipedia community. But because one of our
>announcement draft was placed on the deformed page. We have formulated a
>statement on our own home page to say that this action is not an action of
>the chinese community and that we condumn any hacker attack on who so ever.
>
>Regards
>

Well whether you denounce it ...... I applaud it. Long life that hacker.

Walter/Waerth


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[Foundation-l] Benefits of advertising (was Our exponentially
	increasing costs)

body:
I was there too and IIRC this came up at the Sunday question and answer
session when somebody mentioned the matter of ads.  Some people get very
upset whenever this comes up.  It was a very informal show of hands, but
the proportion for both questions was pretty much as David reports.

Ec

GerardM wrote:

>Hoi,
>I was at Wikimania and I do not even know that this poll was held. There may
>have been a presentation about this, there may have been a "hands up" but
>the amount of people present at this presentation do not represent all those
>that were at Wikimania. The suggestion that it truly represents the ideas of
>those that were at Wikimania is a fallacy. The suggestion that it represents
>the ideas of the Wikimedia crowd is even more rediculous; what do you base
>this on ??
>
>As the mail says "apparantly" it is not even sure there was such a poll and
>certainly it does not express the opinion of all those that were at
>Wikimania.
>
>Thanks,
>GerardM
>
>On 10/27/05, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Dan Grey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 27/10/05, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com <http://gmail.com>>
>>>
>>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>A full one-third of that hard core sufficiently dedicated to Wikipedia
>>>>to spend their own scarce cash going all the way to Wikimania 2005,
>>>>wasn't it? Something about that doesn't sound "insignificant" to me.
>>>>Maybe it does to you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I think you're under-estimating the total number of editors WP has,
>>>over-estimating who'd leave, and over-valuing their importance.
>>>Where'd you get that figure from anyway?
>>>
>>>
>>This list:
>>
>>http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-October/004659.html
>>
>>"Apparently a poll was done at Wikimania and 2/3 of people were
>>against it and 1/3 said they'd leave. So yeah, there's one good
>>argument not to have ads, I guess. I just can't figure out what any of
>>the other ones are."
>>
>>(I've only just noticed it was posted by Anthony DiPierro, who may or
>>may not be a primary source - was he at Wikimania?)
>>


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Foundation-l] Great Wiki Raid

body:
FYI, strange...

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/10/prweb303823.htm

The Great Wiki Raid of '05

Futurists from around the world conduct a 24 hour "knowledge assault"
on Wikipedia.org for the purpose of demonstrating how knowledge is
created in a digital world.

(PRWEB) October 30, 2005 -- The Great Wiki Raid of '05 begins at 12:01
A.M. 31 October. For 24 hours futurists from around the world will
mount a "knowledge assault" on Wikipedia.org, the world's largest
collaborative online encyclopedia. Their goal is simple: to improve
public knowledge about the field of futures studies.

The World Futures Studies Federation is the organizing force behind
The Great Wiki Raid. WFSF "raiders" will endeavor to add as much
information as they can, in multiple languages, regarding the topic
"futures studies" over the course of one day. Choosing Wikipedia as
their "target" acknowledges the dramatic way in which digital
technology is transforming knowledge creation and distribution.

Wikipedia, "The free Encyclopedia that anyone can edit," has grown in
less than five years to include editions in 200 languages. The English
language version alone contains over 790,000 articles. Articles from
Wikipedia have been quoted by the media, referenced in scholarly
journals and books, and even appeared as sources in governmental
debates. As its popularity continues to grow collaborative knowledge
making will become the norm. In the future, knowledge raids like this
one, and even knowledge wars might be frequent occurrences. How these
changes might impact the larger issues of culture, academics, and
politics are just a few of the topics that futurists are working to
better understand.

Those interested in observing the wiki raid as it takes place should
visit www.wikipedia.org. From the main page type "future studies" in
the search box and click on "go." The raid will be taking place from
00:01 GMT on 31 October until 00:01 GMT 1 November.

Contact:
Dr. Wendy L. Schultz
Wiki Raid Organizer
Ph number: +44-1865-284377


subject: [Foundation-l] Great Wiki Raid


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Great Wiki Raid


from_name: Any File

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Trademark violation

body:
 Daniel Mayer  wrote:
> This is what really caught my eye: "Webhosting Provider, Aplus.Net, Launches
> Media Wiki" along with the first sentence: "San Diego webhosting provider,
> Aplus.Net, has introduced a new offering to its customers - the Media Wiki."
> and "The new product is licensed under the GNU Public License, and is the same
> system that serves popular collaborative sites such as Wikipedia.org."
>
> How can they launch MediaWiki when it already exists? MediaWiki is *not* a new
> product of Aplus.Net. *That* along with the other things I mentioned is
> confusing the brand ID.

I should agree with mav.
The message is measling or at least that someone can measlead it.

The message may lead to belive that MediaWiki software was created by
themselves.

Of course is not a severe problem, just a clearer statment would be better.

In any case since tradmark law required the prooves of active
protection could be shown, a request to them to clarify their message
can be useful in this aspect.

AnyFile


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Trademark violation


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Slipping quality as Wikipedia gets bigger (formerly Can
	you trust Wikipedia?)

body:
The "version rating" feature that's been put in Wikimedia software but
not yet optimized to the point where it can be used in a production
Wikipedia would be ideal for reducing backsliding without limiting the
ability to edit or otherwise making things difficult. I've been looking
forward to this feature for quite some time myself. If the problem is
simply one of not having developers with the right combination of free
time, interest, and skills to complete this feature, might it perhaps be
a reasonable idea to spend some of the money raised in the fund drives
to provide a reward to get it done? Spending money to improve the
software's scalability could be worth it for the reduced cost of
hardware upgrades and the reduced "cost" in terms of the volunteer
effort of editors keeping articles clean.


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wiki China: Problem with the site,	att ention and
	action from the board requested

body:
Han Dao wrote:

>We should not sink to the low level that the teenage crackers dude. Hacking
>is not ethical.
>
I would agree with you on that. But what is currently happening and what
some forces in China are doing is not ethical either. I am not saying we
should do these things ourselves, nor do I want to encourage anybody to
do this. I do say though that there is no reason why we can not have a
good smirk at this :) , we are literally being ****ed over by a
dictatorial system which is striving for total mindcontrol of its
population, somthing the Thaksin administration is copying in Thailand
currently, and we are doing nothing about it really so yes I hate
hacking, but oen the other hand it is great to see some resistance. And
I would love to know what is written there.

I personally have the feeling that the Chinese govt or whichever forces
in the mainland are responsible for this should be made to loose face
about this issue by now. We have been polite with them many times. It
didn't work. I personally feel that we should make this an about face
issue. So I personally call on the board to start taking this issue to a
broader audience.

Walter/Waerth


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webcomics/Deletion again

body:
On 10/31/05, Snowspinner <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The fact that it demonstrably drives off good-faith contributors,
> however, is.
>
> -Phil Sandifer (Snowspinner)

Only if you can show that another system would not have the same effect.

--
geni


from_name: 田中 万太郎

subject: [Wikitech-l] www.tocatch.info: another live mirror

body:
Hello

a www.tocatch.info appears to be mirroring various
Wikipedias live, examples:

http://www.tocatch.info/en/Special:Recentchanges.htm
(ENGLISH)
http://www.tocatch.info/ja/Special:Recentchanges.htm
(JAPANESE)

Thankyou

TANAKA

--------------------------------------
Know more about Breast Cancer
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/pinkribbon/


from_name: rex

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia & Original Research

body:
I think that photos, which are intended to make a specific point, should not be uploaded to Wikipedia unless they have been previously published by a disinterested, reputable 3rd party.
Flikr.com, weblogs, partisan political web sites (dailykos, freerepublic, etc) and such are not acceptable, but commercial news organizations and commericial publishers and to a lesser extent, non-profits would be ok. There is simply too much opportunity out there to stage photos, for example:

Supporters of Candidate A take Candidate B's signs and make a big mess in a parking lot with them and leave also a lot of trash like water bottles and sandwich wrappers.... the Wiki caption for this reads, "trash left behind after local rally for B".
Clearly it's a staged photo intended to make a point. If the control parameter of "intended to make a point" is not enforced, the excuse regarding the above scenario would be "I found the trash & signs in the parking lot and merely snapped the photo". Such assertions could not be disproved, opening a pandora's box of scheming opporunities.
-------------- next part --------------
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from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Temporary access for China

body:
Really, though, if we hold any hope that they might ever lift the
block, does it really help our case to be seen as evading it?

Mark

On 30/10/05, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> I just deployed an LVS load balancer in front of squid at the Korean
> cluster, we're sending all Asian traffic through it. The change in IP
> address means users in China will probably be able to access the site for
> now, until the authorities block us again.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

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from_name: Mark Gallagher

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webcomics/Deletion again

body:
G'day Sean,

> Note that the disruption is of /Wikipedia/.  It is impossible to
> disrupt /AfD/ with deletionism, no matter how lunatic -- that entire
> subsystem is maliciously designed to support and encourage lunatic
> deletionism.

I know the hyperbole on this list comes thick and fast most of the time,
but when readers start to seriously wish they could tag as {{nonsense}}
entire paragraphs of one's emails, it's time to think a little before
spewing crap.

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse

--
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from_name: Tom Cadden

body:
--- Puddl Duk <puddlduk at gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > I'd actually give Wikipedia an 8-8.5 on
> trustworthiness. Writing quality
> > is another thing entirely.
> >
>
> Lets not delude ourselves. We have a long way to go.
>  I was just
> looking at some old EB articles the other day;
> Guerrilla [warfare],
> written by   ..........  T. E. Lawrence.  And
> Space-time, written by
> ..........  Albert Einstein.
>
> EB has literally tens of thousands of superb, first
> rate articles
> written by the world's leading experts and polished
> by an editorial
> staff. Yet we enjoy make fun of a handful of
> embarrassing errors or
> shortcomings that have.
>
> Conversely, Wikipedia has literally thens of
> thousands of piles of
> festering crap, a huge amount of unverified, uncited
> information and
> only a handful of first rate articles. We've been
> the media's little
> darling for a long time, not because we are great,
> but because
> Wikipedia works _at all_. The media honeymoon won't
> last forever.
>
> Article validation might help some, but we also need
> a check valve to
> keep the good stuff and reject the bad. Experts and
> great writers
> aren't going to stick around and watch their work
> perpetually
> degraded.
>
> Lest I sound too harsh, remember that the OED, also
> written with the
> help of volunteers, took over fifty years to fully
> publish.

One problem is that as Wikipedia gets bigger, the odds
are that some articles will get substandard edits but
no-one will notice, because the people who previously
worked on the articles will be working on newer
articles. I was off Wikipedia for a month and when I
came back I noticed that a host of articles I had
keeping an eye on because they were in my area of
expertise had had some appalling edits done. Most of
the people who had brought the articles up to a very
high standard had either left Wikipedia (some driven
away from the frustration of trying to maintain
quality, or because they had other commitments
elsewhere), were working elsewhere on Wikipedia, or
were simply fed up constantly proofing edits in those
articles.

We need to be able to in effect save articles that
achieve a high encyclop?dic quality as a form of
permanent template, with subsequent edits perhaps
being worked on and discussed elsewhere before
inclusion. Otherwise the danger is that articles,
having climbed to high quality will slip down to
drivel. I noticed that a couple slipped from an A
standard to D through a series of poor edits that
weren't noticed by people who knew the facts on the
topic. Articles that were better than equivalent
articles in Brittanica, etc suddenly were reduced
through a handful of edits to third rate high school
essay standard.

The real danger is that the bigger Wikipedia gets the
more poor edits will slip through. In terms of quality
we may go backward rather than forward. This is likely
to become a bigger problem, and Wikipedia's
credibility may well rest on how we deal with it.

Thom Cadden

___________________________________________________________
To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webcomics/Deletion again

body:
G'day Sean,
> Mark Gallagher stated for the record:
>>G'day Sean,
>>>Note that the disruption is of /Wikipedia/.  It is impossible to
>>>disrupt /AfD/ with deletionism, no matter how lunatic -- that entire
>>>subsystem is maliciously designed to support and encourage lunatic
>>>deletionism.
>>
>>I know the hyperbole on this list comes thick and fast most of the time,
>>but when readers start to seriously wish they could tag as {{nonsense}}
>>entire paragraphs of one's emails, it's time to think a little before
>>spewing crap.
>
> When a system is so destructively broken that numerous members of the
> community realize that it is impossible to repair and begin calling for
> its complete abolition (and use apt phrases such as "dynamite enema"),

It could be all that and a bag of chips and still not be "maliciously
designed to support and encourage lunatic deletionism".  I wasn't
complaining about a mere everyday criticism of AfD, Sean.

> it is time for that system's defenders to question their fanaticism.

"Fanatacism"?  Presumably I'm reading you wrong, there.

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse

--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
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from_name: Michael Turley

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Slipping quality as Wikipedia gets bigger (formerly
	Can you trust Wikipedia?)

body:
On 10/30/05, Tom Cadden <thomcadden at yahoo.ie> wrote:
>
> One problem is that as Wikipedia gets bigger, the odds
> are that some articles will get substandard edits but
> no-one will notice, because the people who previously
> worked on the articles will be working on newer
> articles. I was off Wikipedia for a month and when I
> came back I noticed that a host of articles I had
> keeping an eye on because they were in my area of
> expertise had had some appalling edits done. Most of
> the people who had brought the articles up to a very
> high standard had either left Wikipedia (some driven
> away from the frustration of trying to maintain
> quality, or because they had other commitments
> elsewhere), were working elsewhere on Wikipedia, or
> were simply fed up constantly proofing edits in those
> articles.
>
> We need to be able to in effect save articles that
> achieve a high encyclop?dic quality as a form of
> permanent template, with subsequent edits perhaps
> being worked on and discussed elsewhere before
> inclusion. Otherwise the danger is that articles,
> having climbed to high quality will slip down to
> drivel. I noticed that a couple slipped from an A
> standard to D through a series of poor edits that
> weren't noticed by people who knew the facts on the
> topic. Articles that were better than equivalent
> articles in Brittanica, etc suddenly were reduced
> through a handful of edits to third rate high school
> essay standard.
>
> The real danger is that the bigger Wikipedia gets the
> more poor edits will slip through. In terms of quality
> we may go backward rather than forward. This is likely
> to become a bigger problem, and Wikipedia's
> credibility may well rest on how we deal with it.
>
> Thom Cadden

Please name a few of these articles in serious decay.  I am very
interested in seeing several examples of this.  So far, all I've seen
is vague affirmations that this indeed is happening.  I don't doubt
that it has happened, but I'd like to have a look to better understand
the trouble.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Trademark violation of our 'MediaWiki' mark

body:
On 10/31/05, Dan Grey <dangrey at gmail.com> wrote:
> It was crystal clear to me the very first time I read it that the
> company are just offering MediaWiki installs in their hosting plans,
> which afaik they're perfectly entitled to do.
>
> This is a fuss over nothing - if anything, we should be congratulating
> them!

But Dan, you and I both know what MeidaWiki is, the average (wo)man on
the street doesn't.

I agree with you it's a good thing TM that they are using MediaWIki,
but it did seem to me like they were trying to pass it off as thier
own. Still i don't think it's that important.

paz y amor,
-rjs.

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body:
My point, though, was that the gov't will be less sympathetic to our
cause once they find out that we've taken measures to avoid the block
at an institutional (rather than individual user) level.

Mark

On 31/10/05, Ting Chen <Wing.Philopp at gmx.de> wrote:
> > Really, though, if we hold any hope that they might ever lift the
> > block, does it really help our case to be seen as evading it?
>
> Yes, we have reports from various part of the land that people can access
> WikiMedia-contents without proxy.
>
> As side effect, we have today again a lot of new articles with copyright
> violations, far more than the days before :-( .
>
> Ting.
>
> --
> 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail
> +++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wiki China: Problem with the site,
	att ention and action from the board requested

body:
On 10/31/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
> Han Dao wrote:
>
> >We should not sink to the low level that the teenage crackers dude. Hacking
> >is not ethical.
> >
> I would agree with you on that. But what is currently happening and what
> some forces in China are doing is not ethical either. I am not saying we
> should do these things ourselves, nor do I want to encourage anybody to
> do this. I do say though that there is no reason why we can not have a
> good smirk at this :) , we are literally being ****ed over by a
> dictatorial system which is striving for total mindcontrol of its
> population,

China is not a dictatorial system, and you'd be hard pressed to find
anyone knowledgeable about it that would describe it as so.
Authoritarian, socio-captialist, schizophrenic, but hardly
dictatorial. Though it is annoying to be without the "complete"
Internet in the PRC, total mindcontrol is an exaggeration.

> somthing the Thaksin administration is copying in Thailand
> currently, and we are doing nothing about it really so yes I hate
> hacking, but oen the other hand it is great to see some resistance. And
> I would love to know what is written there.

Some of it talked of shameless copying from Wikipedia, others posted
the proxy information on how to reach the real Wikipedia, etc. As for
Thaksin, I think Berlusconi is perhaps a better analogy.

> I personally have the feeling that the Chinese govt or whichever forces
> in the mainland are responsible for this should be made to loose face
> about this issue by now. We have been polite with them many times. It
> didn't work.

Depends on what value of "didn't work." ZH has been blocked less than
6 weeks total, over the last four years.

> I personally feel that we should make this an about face
> issue. So I personally call on the board to start taking this issue to a
> broader audience.

Give it at least as long as the longest previous block (19 days), and
a bigger stink can be raised then. Chinese Internet users have learned
to take it in stride, using the opportunity to probe the limits of
content. There are other alternatives as well, like a mirror of ZH on
servers internal to the PRC.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


list: commons-l

from_name: Angela

subject: [Commons-l] Warning: moving servers

body:
Just a warning to everybody; I [Brion] will be moving the file storage
for Commons from our overloaded image server to another machine in a
few hours. Temporarily the ability to re-upload over existing files is
suspended to ensure that files won't be lost in this process -- sorry
for any inconvenience this causes.

Also during the actual switch, some of the latest uploads may also
appear to be missing until the final bits are copied over. I'll put up
a site notice warning when that's ready to happen. --Brion VIBBER
03:26, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

(message copied from <http://commons.wikimedia.org/C:VP>)

Angela.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Warning: moving servers


from_name: Jeff Heikkinen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Previews

body:
uninvited at nerstrand.net wrote:
> In my experience, this bug manifests itself only when one has multiple
> tabs or windows open.
>
> Then, it is necessary to press whatever button initiates a post action
> on two or more windows or tabs, without waiting for the prior post to
> complete.  This is only possible when the site is responding slowly.  I
> don't believe I've had the initial problem occur with any pages other
> than the delete confirmation page, though I could be mistaken.

I am having this problem right now on [[Canasta]], and I do not have
multiple tabs open (okay, I do, but only one of them is on Wikipedia;
the rest are on other sites).


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
What we have done will give us a bit of information as to how serious
they are about blocking us. There is a vast difference between
blocking done as the result of a policy decision at the highest level
of the government and blocking done by someone who saw something THEY
didn't like.

Fred

On Oct 31, 2005, at 2:48 AM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> My point, though, was that the gov't will be less sympathetic to our
> cause once they find out that we've taken measures to avoid the block
> at an institutional (rather than individual user) level.
>
> Mark
>
> On 31/10/05, Ting Chen <Wing.Philopp at gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>> Really, though, if we hold any hope that they might ever lift the
>>> block, does it really help our case to be seen as evading it?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, we have reports from various part of the land that people can
>> access
>> WikiMedia-contents without proxy.
>>
>> As side effect, we have today again a lot of new articles with
>> copyright
>> violations, far more than the days before :-( .
>>
>> Ting.
>>
>> --
>> 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail
>> +++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you would like a gmail invite, please send me an e-mail.
> Si ud. quiere que le env?e una invitaci?n para ingresar gmail, env?eme
> un mensaje.
> Si vous voulez que je vous envoie une invitation ? joindre gmail,
> envoyez-moi s.v.p un message.
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>


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Madchester's wrongful blocking (user: shultz) (ip:
	68.102.193.78.)

body:
Yes, they can when there are a lot of warnings from other users about
your behavior. Folks need to have some idea of what is going on. By
removing them all the situation is muddled. I had to spend a bit of
time investigating to see what was happening, looking at page
history. Shouldn't have to do that. The block is only for 24 hours on
the theory you are new and can improve.

Fred

On Oct 29, 2005, at 10:41 PM, shultz at ksu.edu wrote:

> He blocked even though the last edits were to MY user talk page. It's
> like dictating what I can or can't have at home. He must've been mad,
> maybe from losing a job earlier, or something awful in his life.
>
> Really, can an admin block someone for deleting other users entries IN
> THEIR OWN USER TALK PAGE?
>
> 68.102.193.78. (user:shultz)
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Dan Grey

subject:
[Juriwiki-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Trademark violation of our
	'MediaWiki' mark

body:
On 31/10/05, Robert Scott Horning <robert_horning at netzero.net> wrote:
> Before you claim flat
> out there is no legal requirement, make sure you can quote chapter and
> verse on the subject.

Please do! The entire US legal code appears to be on the web, so if
there is such a requirement, it shouldn't be hard to find.

And anyway, has MediaWiki actually been trademarked? I know Wikimedia
has, but someone earlier said they couldn't find a trademark for
MediaWiki when they searched for it in where-ever you search for such
things...

Dan


from_name: Ting Chen

subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_Re:_[Wikipedia-l]_Wiki_China:_Problem_with_the_site, ?=		att ention and action from the board requested

body:
Good news at first. As one of our sysops from Beijing, who also sent the
pitition for lifting the block this time and in the last times, reported,
the block is lifted. All WikiMedia-projects should be reachable from China
in the coming days.

> They left the main page editable didn't they?

No, one can only edit if one is registered. In some internet forums someone
said they simply didn't impliment any security measure. :-O

Ting

--
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from_name: Kelly Martin

body:
On 10/31/05, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to clarify, terms don't have to "be trademarked" to become a
> trademark; they simply have to be decalred (and defended) as such. You
> *can* "register" a trademark, and that carries extra weight in various
> legal ways, but (as I understand it) something basically becomes a
> trademark as soon as you declare it to be one.

A mark becomes a trademark as soon as it is "used in trade".
Declaring it a trademark isn't enough; you have to actually use it in
trade.  In our case, publishing the MediaWiki software product
constitutes "use in trade".

I would also add that copyright ownership of a piece of software need
not have anything to do with ownership of the trademark.  MediaWiki is
published by and advertised by the Wikimedia Foundation; they're the
senior user of the mark in trade and thereby entitled to own the mark.

Kelly


from_name: Robert Scott Horning

subject:
[Juriwiki-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Trademark violation of
	our	'MediaWiki' mark

body:
Dan Grey wrote:

>On 31/10/05, Robert Scott Horning <robert_horning at netzero.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Before you claim flat
>>out there is no legal requirement, make sure you can quote chapter and
>>verse on the subject.
>>
>>
>
>Please do! The entire US legal code appears to be on the web, so if
>there is such a requirement, it shouldn't be hard to find.
>
>And anyway, has MediaWiki actually been trademarked? I know Wikimedia
>has, but someone earlier said they couldn't find a trademark for
>MediaWiki when they searched for it in where-ever you search for such
>things...
>
>
>Dan
>
>
When dealing with the law, there are no absolutes.  You "might" be
permitted to do an activity or it may be illegal.  Any attorney worth
anything is always going to hedge his advise anyway and use terms that
don't show absolute certainty, unless you do something stupid like
killing somebody in a court room in front of a judge.  Usually there are
so many contradictory rulings on any topic that you can find some sort
of legal precedence to support a legal argument one way or another.
 "Higher authorities" in U.S. courts like the U.S. Supreme Court,
especially a more recent ruling than something from the 19th Century,
gives a stronger argument and holds more validity for common law than
some appellate court or even some case that was then never appealed.

The whole issue about putting on a disclaimer is mainly a "best
practices" idea where you do it to avoid potential legal troubles in the
future, and to acknowledge that the trademark is not yours, nor do you
intend to treat it as such.  This gives you some limited legal
protection in case you (the person writing the disclaimer or using
trademarks that don't belong to you) are involved in a trademark
lawsuit.  Without the disclaimer, it would be harder to prove that you
weren't misusing the trademark and therefore liable for damages.  And in
the case with Wikimedia projects, it would be the author of the
individual section who may be liable for the damages, not the Wikimedia
Foundation.  There are legal consequences to what you write and gets
published on the internet, even on Wikis.  How much the Wikimedia
Foundation itself would be liable for infringement would be a contested
point and hard to tell.  Likely not much if any, but I wouldn't want to
go to court to find out.

I'll take your challenge and find specific case law and stautory code to
support this argument if you want.  I just don't want to do the heavy
research when I don't think it is necessary as well.  It also gets back
to my point:  If we are expecting proper use of Wikimedia Foundation
trademarks like MediaWiki, why should we not expect the same sort of
standard for our own projects as official standards for usage?  This is
a two-edged sword that cuts both ways and is intellectually honest to
expect proper disclaimers within Wikimedia projects when we are
demanding others to do the same.

--
Robert Scott Horning


from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Wiki China: Problem with the site,
 att ention and action from the board requested

body:
Ting Chen wrote:

> Good news at first. As one of our sysops from Beijing, who also sent the
> pitition for lifting the block this time and in the last times, reported,
> the block is lifted. All WikiMedia-projects should be reachable from China
> in the coming days.
>
>
>>They left the main page editable didn't they?
>
>
> No, one can only edit if one is registered. In some internet forums someone
> said they simply didn't impliment any security measure. :-O
>
> Ting
>

Hello Ting

Are you sure the block has really been lifted, or might it be simply the
change by Tim Starling to use Korea servers for now ?

Anthere


subject:
[Juriwiki-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Trademark violation
	of	our	'MediaWiki' mark

body:
Robert Scott Horning wrote:

>> Please do! The entire US legal code appears to be on the web, so if
>> there is such a requirement, it shouldn't be hard to find.
>>
>> And anyway, has MediaWiki actually been trademarked? I know Wikimedia
>> has, but someone earlier said they couldn't find a trademark for
>> MediaWiki when they searched for it in where-ever you search for such
>> things...
>>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
> When dealing with the law, there are no absolutes.

As a follow up, you may also want to read this web page that offers some
legal opinions from an attorney practicing IP law:

http://www.publaw.com/fairusetrade.html

That was just a quick google search about trademark law, and I could
cite exact cases, but this is a good general introduction to the topic.

--
Robert Scott Horning


subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Wikipedia-l]_Re:_Wiki_China:_Problem_with_the_site, _a?= tt ention and action from the board requested

body:
> Are you sure the block has really been lifted, or might it be simply the
> change by Tim Starling to use Korea servers for now ?

Yes, you are right. I read the report of lifting today morning and later I
read the change on Korea servers. So, the reason is the change. No lifting.

Ting.

--
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from_name: Tim Starling

body:
I just deployed an LVS load balancer in front of squid at the Korean
cluster, we're sending all Asian traffic through it. The change in IP
address means users in China will probably be able to access the site for
now, until the authorities block us again.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

body:
On 10/30/05, Robert Scott Horning <robert_horning at netzero.net> wrote:
>
> Delirium wrote:
>
> > Daniel Mayer wrote:
> >
> >> Use of the term 'Media Wiki' as if it were their product or service.
> >> It is not.
> >> That degrades our MediaWiki trademark and must be defended against if
> >> we wish
> >> to keep control of that trademark.
> >>
> > This is what literally thousands of webhosts do when they advertise
> > "MySQL hosting" without having a disclaimer "MySQL is a trademark of
> > MySQL AB" or some sort of circumlocutory wording stating that they are
> > only offering "hosting of MySQL installations", and nobody seems to
> > mind that.
> >
> > -Mark
>
> I'm not sure where you are looking, but any time you use a trademark
> that isn't yours, you need to put a disclaimer in the advertisement or
> documentation that the trademark belongs to somebody else. It is also a
> case of pure ethics, regardless of law, that if you use something that
> belongs to somebody else, that you give proper credit to where you got
> it from.

If in fact corporations can own words, that's a matter of law, not ethics.
Of course, corporations can't own words, so this is a bad argument anyway.

This is a form a plagerism in this case, to claim that
> MediaWiki is software that you wrote or established.

They're not making that claim though (and plagiarism is much different from
trademark infringement).

I looked at the ad, and it's confusing, especially due to the fact that they
use the term "the Media Wiki" for the name of the software. Whether this
amounts to trademark infringement, I don't know, and frankly it doesn't
matter unless Wikipedia intends to engage in a long drawn out lawsuit over
such a silly thing. It doesn't look like there's anything intentional going
on, just an ad written by someone with poor writing skills.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Clearing my Conscience

body:
Would you want to use a new name or edit as Willy on Wheels?

Fred

On Oct 31, 2005, at 9:03 AM, Timwi wrote:

> Willy on Wheels wrote:
>
>> Yes, I am Willy on Wheels.
>>
>
> I'm glad to see you're changing your wheels! Er... your ways!
>
> The first time I saw your username I thought it was a nice one; I
> wheely
> wheely liked it. Shame you used it to vandalise, giving it a bad
> reputation.
>
>
>> After it proved so useful to me, I realized what our vandalism was
>> taking away from others. If someone had vandalized the pages I
>> needed, I would have likely failed out of university.
>>
>
> You do realise though that you haven't done any permanent damage,
> right? Don't beat yourself up over it. Just don't do it again, and
> everything will be fine.
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Christopher E. Granade

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Bibtex

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Kerim Friedman wrote:
> Does anyone know of any efforts to integrate bibtex citation data into
> MediWiki? Something like this plugin for PMWiki?
>
> <http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/BibtexRef>
>
> Thanks!
>
> kerim
Looking at it, I'd be very concerned about security; the bibtexquery
action accepts PHP code as a parameter. Takes the hard work out of code
injection/XSS attacks.

- --Chris
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from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Privacy policy and editing anonymously notice.

body:
Timwi wrote:

>     Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If
>     you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown
>     publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].

To make it even less scary, how about:

:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed
with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our
[[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].

Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening
than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of
granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that
"we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point
that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's
not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into
just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking
about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Privacy policy and editing
	anonymously notice.


body:
> Really, though, if we hold any hope that they might ever lift the
> block, does it really help our case to be seen as evading it?

Yes, we have reports from various part of the land that people can access
WikiMedia-contents without proxy.

As side effect, we have today again a lot of new articles with copyright
violations, far more than the days before :-( .

Ting.

--
10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail
+++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++


from_name: steve v

subject: [WikiEN-l] Idea re: Template cruft

body:
The 'added whitespace' flaw when category tags are
placed at the top of articles may be a way to solve
the template cruft problem, while still showing a
visible change on the article itself (i.e the extra
line of whitespace). In otherwords, corrections
templates (cleanup - merge - delete - etc) needing to
be made can be hidden in the article, and can be seen
by editors when they click the edit link.

If that's too subtle and difficult (ie links dont
work) a simple edit issues box (like a {{shortcut}}
box) could  give everybody note that there are issues
regarding the article, and link to the talk page where
people can stick any number of templates they want.

SV

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Puddl Duk

body:
>
> Please name a few of these articles in serious decay.  I am very
> interested in seeing several examples of this.  So far, all I've seen
> is vague affirmations that this indeed is happening.  I don't doubt
> that it has happened, but I'd like to have a look to better understand
> the trouble.
>
> --
> Michael Turley
> User:Unfocused

[[Gas turbine]]. The article was mostly written in the first
sixty-five edits
(http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gas_turbine&oldid=6665037)
. The following ~eighty edits have contained a handful of
improvements, but for the most part they are spam, vandalism and
reverts. The article hasn't deteriorated that much because a few
editors periodically clean up the spam and revert vandalism.

Don't get me wrong - I don't consider my writing in this article very
good, and I'm often amazed that an article I worked on can be made
much, much worse!  But I'm tired of spending time removing spam and
repairing the whole article and associated links from anon edits that
originate from a turbine manufacturer's ip address (for example).

I won't work to improve this article anymore, its a waste of effort. I
just move on to things  that don't require constant babysitting.
Haven't had the heart to take it off my watchlist though.


from_name: Poe, Marshall

subject: [Foundation-l] 9/11wiki content sharing

body:
As said. I'd be happy to copy and preserve the memoir content of the site on memorywiki.org.  In fact, we've copied some of it already (with attribution, of course, as per the GNU license).  If you'd like to enter into some more formal relationship re the transfer and preservation of the content, I'd be happy to discuss it (though I'm not sure that's necessary).

In exchange for taking it (or rather more of it than I wanted, and promising to maintain it), I would like help publicizing www.memorywiki.org, though I'm not sure if the Foundation has any mechanism for helping in that area.  In any case, I'm glad to have the memoirs as they fit the mission of MemoryWiki perfectly.

Best, Marshall Poe

Jimbo Wrote:

I could be easily persuaded to support this move.

--Jimbo

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


subject: [Foundation-l] 9/11wiki content sharing


from_name: David Gerard

subject:
[Foundation-l] [WikiEN-l] Re: Privacy policy and editing
	anonymously notice.

body:
Timwi wrote:

>Even shorter:
>	Your [[IP address]] will be logged when you submit. If you are
>	not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly.
>	See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].

"SUBMIT! SUBMIT TO WIKIPEDIA!" heh :-)

The use of "logged" in two different ways is (apparently) very bad. How about:

    Your [[IP address]] is recorded when you edit. If you are not
[[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See
[[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].

Can anyone go even shorter and not lose important info?

- d.


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] [WikiEN-l] Re: Privacy policy and editing anonymously
	notice.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webcomics/Deletion again

body:
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:

>For some literally inflammatory rhetoric see http://en.wikipedia.org/
>wiki/User:GRider, posted a year ago.  I think that's stronger than
>"dynamite enema."

Note that GRider was one of an immense string of sockpuppets run by
User:Radman1 for use on deletion discussions, particularly concerning
schools, and this sockpuppet army is a large part of why many VFD/AFD
regulars curse the rudeness of "inclusionists" and particularly
"school inclusionists". Bad faith breeds bad faith.

- d.


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Webcomics/Deletion again

body:
>From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>JAY JG stated for the record:
> >> From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> >>
> >> Mark Gallagher stated for the record:
> >> >
> >> > G'day Sean,
> >> >
> >> > I know the hyperbole on this list comes thick and fast most of the
> >> time,
> >> > but when readers start to seriously wish they could tag as
>{{nonsense}}
> >> > entire paragraphs of one's emails, it's time to think a little before
> >> > spewing crap.
> >>
> >> When a system is so destructively broken that numerous members of the
> >> community realize that it is impossible to repair and begin calling for
> >> its complete abolition (and use apt phrases such as "dynamite enema"),
> >> it is time for that system's defenders to question their fanaticism.
> >
> >
> > The hyperbole regarding AFD's "brokenness", including terms like
> > "fanaticism" applied to its supporters, is not a strong argument that it
> > is actually broken.
> >
> > Jay.
>
>Strong arguments proving its brokenness are laid out in detail elsewhere
>and need not be repeated.  Observation of the fanaticism of those
>denying that plethora of argument, on the other hand, is perennial.

Sean, I'm very rarely on AfD, but from what I've seen (and what others have
said here) the AfD appears to make reasonable decisions 95-98% percent of
the time - it's the last 2-5% of controversial decisions that are causing
all the angst here, combined with concern over a "poisonous atmosphere" on
the page.

The page deals with over 100 articles a day, so it's easy enough to find
examples of bad decisions.  However, no system is perfect, and the
error-rate at AfD does not appear to be particularly unreasonable for a
human intensive process working under fairly loose guidelines.  It certainly
has not been demonstrated that the any other system would have a lower error
rate.  Furthermore, it should be kept in mind that "hard cases make bad
law".  Finally, as has been pointed out by Tony, AfD itself has a limited
capacity, so the overall "harm" it can do Wikipedia, at least in terms of
articles deleted in error (or, for that matter, kept in error), is
miniscule.

What I think is perhaps more harmful is the overheated rhetoric found on
this mailing list on this topic - demonization of those with whom one
disagrees is extremely harmful to the Wikipedia community.  From what I can
tell, people on both sides of the issues are arguing in good faith, and are
generally making reasonable arguments.  In the end, rather than ratcheting
things up and making them personal, can't everyone just agree to disagree?

Jay.


subject:
[Wikitech-l] LiquidThreads [WAS: Re: the discussion page: summary
 and better display of   the treats, mbox format?]

references:
<877jbu2avo.fsf@mat.ucm.es>	<9f02ca4c0510310526r3f93a94bh@mail.gmail.com>
	<87d5llaiex.fsf@mat.ucm.es>

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Uwe Brauer wrote:
> The idea sounds appealing and I would support it, however nothing has
> been implemented so far, as I understand
>
>
> Uwe

That seems like a really interesting proposal, though it also seems like
it would require a lot of work, and probably a seperation of "old-style"
and "Liquid" discussion pages, as old talk pages would take a hell of a
lot of work to convert- work that seems hard to justify in the long run.
- --Chris
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Ratings again

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

>P.S.: I think I actually found a *real* bug; it seems anyone can change
>the list of topics. I'll have to restrict that to sysops.

I'd expect on Wikipedia that'd be a steward-level thing. Remember that
after the testing phase, it's unlikely to change very often if at all,
and then only with the consent of the wiki's community.

- d.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Karl Popper and Wikipedia

body:
The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says:

"Popper holds [that] the open society can be brought about only if it is
possible for the individual citizen to evaluate critically the
consequences of the implementation of government policies, which can
then be abandoned or modified in the light of such critical scrutiny -
in such a society, the rights of the individual to criticise
administrative policies will be formally safeguarded and upheld,
undesirable policies will be eliminated in a manner analogous to the
elimination of falsified scientific theories, and differences between
people on social policy will be resolved by critical discussion and
argument rather than by force."

I maintain that the Wikipedia community is Popper's sort of "open
society" for the following reasons:

1. It is possible for the individual Wikipedian evaluate critically the
consequences of the implementation of Wikipedia policies.

2. Wikipedia policies can be abandoned or modified in the light of such
critical scrutiny.

3. The rights of individual Wikipedians to criticise administrative
policies has consistently been upheld - not only on the mailing list but
also on user pages and policy talk pages.

4. Differences between Wikipedians on social policy have almost always
been resolved by critical discussion and argument rather than by force.

Perhaps the only element missing is the elimination of undesirable
policies in a manner analogous to the elimination of falsified
scientific theories, but if so four out of five is not bad!

Uncle Ed


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Temporary access for China

body:
Hello Tim,

I posted you mail and a translation of it onto the chinese village pump.

Here is a link of the mail and
translation:

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E4%BA%92%E5%8A%A9%E5%AE%A2%E6%A0%88#.E6.94.B9.E5.8F.98IP.E7.9A.84.E5.8E.9F.E5.9B.A0.E7.BA.AF.E5.B1.9E.E6.8A.80.E6.9C.AF.E5.8E.9F.E5.9B.A0

Regards
Ting

--
Highspeed-Freiheit. Bei GMX superg?nstig, z.B. GMX DSL_Cityflat,
DSL-Flatrate f?r nur 4,99 Euro/Monat*  http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia & Original Research

body:
On 31/10/05, rex <rex at x234.com> wrote:
> I think that photos, which are intended to make a specific point,
> should not be uploaded to Wikipedia unless they have been
> previously published by a disinterested, reputable 3rd party.

You've proposed this... hmm, three times or so that I've seen so far
this morning. Is there a particular image or article you're taking
issue with?

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Karl Popper and Wikipedia

body:
--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:

> I maintain that the Wikipedia community is Popper's
> sort of "open
> society" for the following reasons:

There is a basic fact about Wikipedia's uniqueness
that  allows its developed philosophy to likewise be
regarded as somewhat unique and altruistic.  Anybody
who really knows Wikipedia knows that its success is a
validation of the open model. Hence there is some
altruistic interest in continuing to keep things open
open open. Hence, there is a natural clash between
commonplace concepts of government--which tends to
claim ownership of any elitist or goal-oriented
movements toward improving content-- and idealism.

Because this is all electronics in the web aether, the
drive to be egalitarian is naturally much stronger
than it is in the meatspace context. Hence, I for one
have always agreed with the application of altruistic
concepts to Wikipedia, simply because human beings
demand it. This is why, for example I dislike claims
that sysops have a "janitorial role" (as opposed to a
"shepherd" role) or that the Arbcom should hold to an
impersonal and pragmatic tone, rather than to a
principled and responsive one.

Anyway this meatspace debate between "do whats best"
pragmatism and "do whats good" moralism is old enough
in the real world--we Trekkies demand that wikipedia
hold to its idealistic potential. I.e. it seems rather
"unwiki" to supress principled appeals in favor of
pragmatic ones--and no citatious "originalist"
referentialism is suitable for either writing, nor
editing, nor social engineering. It seems only natural
that a truly open medium wants to grow more open, in a
reflection of (what we loosely call) idealism. Granted
there are government disagreements about how to get
there...

Fuck it.
Party on.
SV

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Guettarda

body:
On 10/31/05, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Making a point is already disallowed. But it'd be hard to figure out
> exactly which images fall under that. I'd say IFD is the best place
> for such images.
>
> --Mgm

I disagree - IFD would not be the place - an image may be POV in one context
and perfectly acceptable somewhere else. This is not a NOR issue, it's a POV
and article content issue - the example Rex really applies to the caption. A
staged picture might be out of line if someone attempted to pass it off as a
real image, but fine in an article about the political power of an image.

In almost all cases, an image is neutral until you add a caption to it. Then
it may be POV.

Ian


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Other projects in Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian,
	Montenegrin, ...?

body:
Delirium wrote:

> Milos Rancic wrote:
>
>> Bosniaks should have all projects in their own standard language
>> because it is better to have three small projects where people would
>> want to work then one when people would not want to work. In this
>> moment.
>
> This is debatable.  Having 3 projects separated on
> ethnic/nationalist/political lines is just about the worst possible
> alternative, IMO, worse even than having no projects, since I cannot
> see how such a project could ever possibly be a legitimate Wikipedia
> project with a neutral point of view.

This turn of events justifies my continued opposition to separate
language domains for Wikisource.  (Mark, the discussion is about
Wikisource, not Wikipedia.)  What you say about Wikipedia, however,
holds even more strongly for Wikisource.  Wikisource contains mostly old
documents.  These were written as they were written by the original
published author.  NPOV cannot apply to their content; it can only apply
to added explanatory text.

Since the Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian languages are mutually
intelligible it makes sense that the literature in each of these
languages be easily available to all. Branko Radievi, Ksaver andor
Gjalski and Anton Medved all wrote in different dialects.  Is it not an
advantage to be able to see them as unifying forces rather than tools
for petty nationalism?

I absolutely do not support this kind of nationalistic fragmentation.  I
say this not just about the Yugoslav languages, but also about
Indonesian/Malay and all the others that have been mentioned in this
way.  While there may be practical difficulties to attaining this in
Wikipedia this is far from the case in Wikisource.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Previews

body:
Guettarda wrote:
>>
>>This bug is associated with a feature which prevents submission of forms
>>by
>>offsite javascript. For example, if a hacker wanted a page deleted, they
>>could write some javascript, put it up on their website, then post a link
>>to
>>it on the user talk page of an administrator. The bug involved makes some
>>unknown random event during an ordinary form submission appear essentially
>>identical to this abuse scenario.
>>
>>-- Tim Starling
>
>
>
> So this is what is going on when you get the message "rollback action
> cancelled to prevent session hijacking"? Always wondered what was going on -
> if it meant my account might have been compromised (I changed my password
> after getting that message, just to be safe; always thought I should enquire
> about what that meant).
>

Yes, that's correct.

-- Tim Starling


body:
Magnus Manske wrote:

>Neil Harris wrote:
>
>
>>Am I being naive here, or would a super-dumb implementation with a
>>single table with the columns shown below be enough to work in the
>>short term?
>>
>>Page_ID
>>Revision_ID
>>User_ID
>>Rating_ID
>>Rating value
>>Timestamp
>>
>>
>This is what I did; no timestamp, but a varchar for comments. Topics to
>rate and their range (e.g, 1-5) are encoded here as well for user #0.
>That's about as dumb as it gets ;-)
>
I still prefer a 0-10 range of ratings.  I think a decimal normalization
would be easier to work with in any subsequent analysis of results.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Previews

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Tim Starling wrote:
>> For example, if a hacker wanted a page deleted
>
>
> Deletion is not editing. Stick to the topic!
>
>> they could write some javascript, put it up on their website, then
>> post a link to it on the user talk page of an administrator.
>
>
> Which is OK, if it's just an edit, and it will be posted by its IP
> (rather than the admin's username).

No, it'll be posted under the admin's username. The request is sent with the
cookies associated with the site that is posted to. Due to privacy
restrictions on javascript, the script cannot obtain the text of any pages
requested from another domain, so we deny requests from offsite javascript
by requiring all write operations to first obtain a key from a page on our site.

The code and all the problems with it are shared between deletion and editing.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Alphax

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Wiki China: Problem with the site,	attention and
	action from the board requested

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Angela wrote:
> On 10/30/05, Walter van Kalken <walter at vankalken.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I am terribly sorry Angela but do you really feel they could do this in
>>error?????????????????
>
>
> I'm unable to see the site, so I'm assuming good faith. I was
> previously getting timeouts, then 404 errors, and now all I see is the
> standard "This wiki does not exist yet" error message, with the logo
> from meta - the exact same page you get if you go to
> http://tokipona.wikinews.org/ for example.
>

Yes, it plainly tells people to go to the REAL Wikimedia sites. Awesome :)

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
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subject:
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Wikipedia-l]_Wiki_China:_Problem_with_the_site,
	=09att?= ention and action from the board requested

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Ting Chen wrote:
> The situation escalated today morning. Someone, probably some chinese
> Wikipedian hacked the site of Wiki China and deformated the homepage.
> Probably they even deleted some content. At first they placed an
> announcement we were just formulating in the chinese Wikipedia. You can see
> the announcment and the deformed homepage of Wiki China here:
>
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:%E7%BB%B4%E5%AE%A2%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD
>
> This action is a deed of one or several people. It does not represent the
> oppinion of the chinese wikipedia community. But because one of our
> announcement draft was placed on the deformed page. We have formulated a
> statement on our own home page to say that this action is not an action of
> the chinese community and that we condumn any hacker attack on who so ever.
>

They left the main page editable didn't they?

- --
Alphax                      |   /"\
Encrypted Email Preferred   |   \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613  |    X   Against HTML email & vCards
http://tinyurl.com/cc9up    |   / \
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from_name: Uwe Brauer

subject:
[Wikitech-l] the discussion page: summary and better display of the
	treats, mbox format?

body:
Hello

One of the inconvenience of the discussion page in wikipedia is the
fact that does not have a mail-client type of interface/display. That
is neither there is a email-summary type of display, nor a display
which would allow to display the threads easily.

Are there any plans to include such a feature.

A possibility to would be to have a input and output filter for  a
neutral mbox format. For example the Debian bug track system has such
a possibility.

Regards

Uwe Brauer


from_name: Ilya Haykinson

subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews feature

body:
On 10/31/05, James R. Johnson <modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hey,
>     Is there a feature on the wikis that allows you to have auto-updated
> stock information, much like the weather maps on wikinews?
>

I've originally developed a tool to do this on English Wikinews. The
output was auto-edited by a bot, with images hosted on the Commons,
with the results located at http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Market_Data

I stopped running the bot for three reasons:

1) This type of work should really be server-side and not performed by
a bot editing pages and uploading images every few hours
2) The data source wasn't very stable and consistent
3) The license for the data was questioned

Please note that the biggest issue is the source of the data -- as far
as I know, there's no free service that provides international stock
market data unencumbered by restrictions on data reuse. If someone
with more time could find a good source for the data, I could
doubtlessly start running that bot again. Or if someone wants to write
this tool server-side (as an extension to MediaWiki or whatnot) we'd
be in an even better shape.

-ilya haykinson


subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews feature


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] wikinews feature