from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] i18n of php wikipedia script

body:
There are still many messages which are not i18ned.
Could you i18n them all, so we can l10n them ?


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

body:
On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Derek Ross wrote:

> GIF is in itself a copyrighted, or rather a patented, file format.
> Therefore it is just as legally problematic to upload GIF images to the
> Wikipedia without permission from the patent-holder as it is to upload any
> other form of copyrighted material without the permission of the
> copyright-holder.

Didn't the patent for the compression scheme used in GIF recently expire?

Also, isn't it just the "compressing party" that would be hit by such a
patent? (I don't need to pay patent fees for collecting used machines
containing patented gear.)

-- Daniel


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

body:
At 11:28 PM 6/09/02 +0100, Derek Ross wrote:
>GIF is in itself a copyrighted, or rather a patented, file format.
>Therefore it is just as legally problematic to upload GIF images to the
>Wikipedia without permission from the patent-holder as it is to upload any
>other form of copyrighted material without the permission of the
>copyright-holder.

Actually, as far as I know, the only thing that the patent covers is gif
_encoders._ Unisys (or whoever it is that currently holds the patent) has
absolutely no right to individual gif _files;_ all they can do is sell
licences to people that allow them to write programs that can produce gifs.
You will find many pieces of free software which can open and view gifs but
cannot _save_ gifs because of this.

And even if I write an unlicenced program that saves gifs, while the
program _itself_ is illegal and cannot be distributed, the gifs it
_produces_ are still solely the property of whoever made them. I could get
sued for writing and distributing the program, but they can't touch the
gifs I made with them.

So personally, I think allowing gifs on wikipedia should be just fine. It
is entirely possible for a gif file to be public domain.

I am not a lawyer, of course. But I'm sure this question comes up over and
over for many different projects, so I'm sure it should be possible to find
a real lawyer's statement somewhere to confirm or refute this.

--
"Let there be light." - Last words of Bomb #20, "Dark Star"


from_name: Derek Ross

subject: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen" <daniel at copyleft.no>
To: <wikipedia-l at nupedia.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

> On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Derek Ross wrote:
>
> > GIF is in itself a copyrighted, or rather a patented, file format.
> > Therefore it is just as legally problematic to upload GIF images to the
> > Wikipedia without permission from the patent-holder as it is to upload
any
> > other form of copyrighted material without the permission of the
> > copyright-holder.
>
> Didn't the patent for the compression scheme used in GIF recently expire?
>
> Also, isn't it just the "compressing party" that would be hit by such a
> patent? (I don't need to pay patent fees for collecting used machines
> containing patented gear.)
>
Maybe it has expired, maybe it hasn't.  Unisys don't seem to think that it
has (http://www.unisys.com/unisys/lzw/).  The FSF doesn't think that it will
expire until 2003 (http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/gif.html).  It seems to me
that the simplest way to deal with the problem is to avoid it by not
accepting GIFs.  That way we're in the clear no matter what the current
position is.

Cheers

Derek


subject: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

body:
On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Derek Ross wrote:

>> Didn't the patent for the compression scheme used in GIF recently expire?

>> Also, isn't it just the "compressing party" that would be hit by such a
>> patent? (I don't need to pay patent fees for collecting used machines
>> containing patented gear.)

> Maybe it has expired, maybe it hasn't.  Unisys don't seem to think that it
> has (http://www.unisys.com/unisys/lzw/).  The FSF doesn't think that it will
> expire until 2003 (http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/gif.html).  It seems to me
> that the simplest way to deal with the problem is to avoid it by not
> accepting GIFs.  That way we're in the clear no matter what the current
> position is.

Still, as long as Wikipedia neither codes nor decodes GIFs, how can it be in
violation?

-- Daniel


from_name: Kurt Jansson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

body:
> I'd be in favor of eliminating all GIFs from the site.  Although I'm
> personally comfortable with GIFs, I think we have a large userbase
> >from the free software community who aren't.  And software patents
are
> evil.

You're right, but there are many people who don't know about these
things. If they can't upload a GIF they created they might not upload it
at all, or they might save the picture as JPEG what is very suboptimal
in most cases.
So there should at least be a statement why we don't accept GIFs, and
that they should use PNG instead. It would be even better if people are
still allowed to upload GIFs after a message that we'd like PNGs much
more. The GIFs could be listed on a page and someone with a batch
converter could change them once in a while.
And while we are trying to treat images like articles, maybe the GIF
could REDIRECT to the PNG?

Kurt


from_name: lcrocker at nupedia.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New codebase update, question about searches

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

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from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

in_reply_to: <200206102010.g5AKAqq09518@ross.bomis.com>; from lcrocker@nupedia.com on Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:10:52PM -0700

body:
lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
> Again, I'm not averse to excluding GIFs from Wikipedia for many
> reasons, but fear of a legitimate patent infringement claim is
> not one of them.0

I would agree with this.  For one thing, Unisys would have to be smoking
crack to sue Wikipedia, since they'd look like ogres.  They'd be better off
suing Yahoo or Microsoft or any of a number of other rich and unsympathetic
folks.

On the other hand, there are lots of good reasons to not have GIFs around here,
even if we aren't the least bit afraid of a serious lawsuit.  We have an image
to uphold in the free software community, at least, and we want to make crystal
clear our commitment to the principles of that community.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: <lcrocker at nupedia.com>
To: <wikipedia-l at nupedia.com>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 3:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] file uploads

> > Still, as long as Wikipedia neither codes nor decodes GIFs, how can
> > it be in violation?
>
> It can't.  Derek is completely mistaken on that score.  Only software
> that encodes or decodes GIF has any problem, and even the case for
> decoders is pretty thin.  So the patent itself is no reason to forgo
> use of GIF in web sites.  But it does make a political statement to
> avoid their use, in that in the long run, avoiding GIFs on web pages
> may in time reduce their use to such low levels that free software
> developers might be able to produce more non-patent-encumbered
> software for producing images.
>
> And PNG is a superior format anyway (and I'm not just saying that
> because I'm one of its developers--I was on the committee that
> created GIF too).

Mistaken ?  In 1999 Unisys stated that its policy is to require a $5000 fee
from websites that carry GIF images made by unlicensed software -- even
nonprofit websites created and displayed with free software.  Can Wikipedia
prove that every GIF image uploaded to it has been created by a properly
licensed GIF encoder ?  I think not.

Cheers

Derek


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Uploads page is misdesigned

body:
There's not purpose in showing huge list of all previously uploaded
files on this page. The list should be moved to some other page
and uploads page should be only for uploading files.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Searching in new codebase

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from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [Wikipedia-l] continued growth rate and quality

body:
On 6/6/02 8:11 AM, "Kurt Jansson" <jansson at gmx.net> wrote:
>> But is there any way to judge/measure/monitor the quality of the
>> contribution as volume grows?
>
> The more page views an article got in the last x months, and the less it
> has been edited in the same time, the better is the article?
>
I'd be skeptical about this metric being equivalent to quality, since there
are so many factors that influence the ratio of views to edits. Quality is
certainly one, but so is:
*) ease of editing
*) nature of the visitor to the page

That is, if the interface makes it difficult to edit the article, people
won't edit it whether or not it's of inferior quality. E.g. slowdowns.

I'd rather say that the above metric measures something like "article
stasis", which has both good and bad qualities. Most of the time stasis is
good, but it's important to remember it's not perfection.

I feel like I'm taking way to philosophical a tone here by speaking in
generalities--all I mean is that everything bears improvement.

Also, sometimes a high edit-to-view ratio is an excellent metric of quality,
in particular (of course) in the case of current-events articles.

--tc


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Searching in new codebase

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body:
On 6/12/02 2:35 PM, "Lars Aronsson" <lars at aronsson.se> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, The Cunctator wrote:
>> I'd be skeptical about this metric being equivalent to quality,
>
> I think nobody has an easy answer to the definition of quality.
> Traditional (non-editable) websites like Amazon's let visitors rank the
> contents (was this book good? was this review useful?).  Wikipedia lets
> readers rewrite the articles they don't like.  The very idea of "ranking"
> the contents becomes obsolete.
>
That's a great point. This should be in the FAQ.


from_name: Axel Boldt

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Searching in new codebase

body:
The search code in the new codebase behaves similar to our current
code in that it assumes an implicit AND for several search terms, and
doesn't return any results if no articles match all terms.

I wonder if this is the intuitive behavior for most users. I think
Google has conditioned people to type in as much relevant information
as possible to get better hits, and most search engines work that way.
In fact, the built-in mysql search code works that way too. Maybe we
should use it directly? That way, we could also present the results
according to relevancy (which mysql reports), rather than
alphabetically.

We would lose the boolean AND OR NOT operators, but newer versions of
mysql have substitutes: you use "+term" if you definitely want the term
in your results, and you use "-term" if you definitely don't want it.
This is almost as powerful as boolean searching.

Alternatively, we could have an "advanced search" page where you could
construct a boolean search, include/exclude specific namespaces etc.
Now that I think about it, a way to optionally search talk: and
wikipedia: would probably be desirable.

Axel


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Searching in new codebase

in_reply_to: <200206121453.QAA11736@linde.uni-paderborn.de>; from axel@uni-paderborn.de on Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 04:53:17PM +0200

body:
On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 04:53:17PM +0200, Axel Boldt wrote:
>
> I wonder if this is the intuitive behavior for most users. I think Google
> has conditioned people to type in as much relevant information as possible
> to get better hits, and most search engines work that way. In fact, the
> built-in mysql search code works that way too. Maybe we should use it
> directly?

I tried that at the time but wasn't really satisfied with the way MySQL did
the scoring. If you looked for "A B" it would score an article with only
lots of A's much higher than an article with a few combinations of A and B.
That's why I came up with the idea of boolean search.

Having said that I now favour removing my search code and moving to
MySQL's binary search, because if you don't like it's default scoring you
can now use the +'s. It was fun writing a parser for boolean expressions but
if we can get rid of that complicated piece of code and defer some of the
work to the database I'm all for it. Simplify, simplify.

> That way, we could also present the results according to
> relevancy (which mysql reports), rather than alphabetically.

In my original code the sorting was based on the scoring. That's what
happens in MySQL by default anyway.

> We would lose the boolean AND OR NOT operators, but newer versions of
> mysql have substitutes: you use "+term" if you definitely want the term
> in your results, and you use "-term" if you definitely don't want it.
> This is almost as powerful as boolean searching.

Not almost, completely, you can use brackets. :-)

However, on the long run we should probably implement our own indexing. That
would allow us to tackle several problems:
- the ' problem
- searching UTF-8 with proper collation without hacking the character
set
- recognizing entities such as ö
- languages with inflections
- partial matches
or ... we could wait for the MySQL team to implement the Generic
user-suppliable UDF preparser as us mentioned in their to-do list. Perhaps
we should give them a call. :-)

-- Jan Hidders


from_name: Jason Richey

subject: [Wikitech-l] international wikis

body:
I haven't seen any conversation about how the latest international
wiki is working out...  Is it functioning correctly?  Are we ready to
move on to the next one?

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


from_name: Lars Aronsson

body:
On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, The Cunctator wrote:
> I'd be skeptical about this metric being equivalent to quality,

I think nobody has an easy answer to the definition of quality.
Traditional (non-editable) websites like Amazon's let visitors rank the
contents (was this book good? was this review useful?).  Wikipedia lets
readers rewrite the articles they don't like.  The very idea of "ranking"
the contents becomes obsolete.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  tel +46-70-7891609
  http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Searching in new codebase

in_reply_to: <200206121716.g5CHGir11188@ross.bomis.com>; from lcrocker@nupedia.com on Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 10:16:44AM -0700

body:
On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 10:16:44AM -0700, lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
>
> The first simplification I did was to get rid of the parser because
> it wasn't necessary--SQL is already doing it, so I just pass on the
> ANDs, ORs, and NOTs as they are.

The point of the parser was to detect the cases where the query was not
well-formed, unbalanced brackets, "A and or B", et cetera, and then give
some kind of syntax error to indicate what is wrong. What do you do with
those cases now?

Btw. is it correct that you only highlight one search word per line in the
result of the search?

> The second change I made to the search was to parse the article
> text into a separate field the way we were already doing for titles.

Ah, I see, sorry for not checking your code first. So that is why the
scoring doesn't work anymore. The simplest way to get scoring back is
probably to not eliminate duplicates when processing.

> We could also do our own scoring after MySQL returns the raw
> results, but that would require making a pass through the entire
> result set before displaying anything.

Not necessarily. The usual way to do this is define your own index table
like

   Text_index(word, article, #occurrences)

and then you let MySQL compute some sort of scoring and sort on that. This
is tricky if you have OR and NOT but with only AND this is easy.

-- Jan Hidders


subject: [Wikitech-l] Chinese?

body:
I got a message from somebody the other day saying that the Chinese
wikipedia is not working somehow (He said "I can't read the
Chinese").  zh.wikipedia.com is still using UseMod, would the PHP
script do better here (and should I try to set up the test site)?

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [Wikitech-l] test-de bug reports

in_reply_to: <016201c212fd$2be2b9a0$49aee6d9@maximilian>; from jansson@gmx.net on Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:09:44PM +0200

body:
Oh, I had no idea there was even such a page.  My german is a little
rusty, so a translation would be nice (not to mention I probably won't
even be the one performing many changes).

Jason Richey

Kurt Jansson wrote:

> Hello!
>
> Is anybody still keeping an eye on
> http://test-de.wikipedia.com/wiki/wikipedia%3ABeobachtete+Fehler ?
>
> I'm sure you guys are busy, but ... ;-)
>
> Can I help somehow? Shall I try to translate the page (I'm not so good
> in translating, but I'd try). I don't know if Altavista's babelfish
> could help here.
>
> Is it really a good idea to keep the [[/talk]] links at the bottom of
> the pages? On the English WP's RecentChanges I see quite often the
> comment "deleted /talk link". So maybe they shouldn't be transformed to
> be pointing to the namespace, but deleted?
>
> Kurt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at ross.bomis.com
> http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Browser testing in new code

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Searching in new codebase

in_reply_to: <200206122137.g5CLbhB15341@ross.bomis.com>; from lcrocker@nupedia.com on Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 02:37:43PM -0700

body:
On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 02:37:43PM -0700, lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
>
> > The point of the parser was to detect the cases where the query was not
> > well-formed, unbalanced brackets, "A and or B", et cetera, and then give
> > some kind of syntax error to indicate what is wrong. What do you do with
> > those cases now?
>
> Now I let MySQL choke on it, and report back its error, which is actually
> much more useful than it sounds.  The part of the program that reports
> MySQL errors is very good; I originally made it that way for debugging,
> but it's not bad for this case either.  I just don't see that much benefit
> from making nicer error messages on badly formed searches.

Agreed, although telling the user that there has been an "unrecoverable
database error" and asking him or her to inform the administrator might be a
bit overdone in this case. :-)

> > Btw. is it correct that you only highlight one search word per line
> > in the result of the search?
>
> If fixed that, and also the word-boundary problem, but it does still limit
> the context display to 60 characters before and after the first hit of
> each line.  Personally, I think that's plenty to get a sense of context,
> but I might be convinced otherwise.

FWIW, I think its enough. I would even vote for limiting the number of lines
you report to a maximum of 5 or so.

> > Ah, I see, sorry for not checking your code first. So that is why the
> > scoring doesn't work anymore. The simplest way to get scoring back is
> > probably to not eliminate duplicates when processing.
>
> Hmm. That might be a good idea.  I might even be able to add extra
> duplicates for words in headings or something.  I initially assumed that
> eliminating duplicates would speed the search, but if it hurts the
> scoring, that's not a good tradeoff.

It just takes up disk space. What determines the speed is the index
structure and unless MySQL is doing something really stupid here that is not
going to get much bigger.

-- Jan Hidders


subject: [Wikitech-l] Bringing up the new server

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from_name: Nick Kanakakorn

subject: [Wikitech-l] help: any other doc beside README

body:
Hi All,

I got wiki up and running on the first page (wiki.phtml).  My environment
is Redhat 7.1 with MySQL 3.23.36 , Apache 1.23, and php 4.2.1.  MySQL,
apache, and PHP works fine.

Wiki does not seem to work correctly.  On the first page, the
link to "edit page" does not allow me to edit the first page.  Second, any
links to /wiki/special:xxx such as /wiki/special:ListUsers does not work.
I got error :

"The requested URL /wiki/special:ListUsers was not found on this server."

I don't know whether I misconfigure anything or because I just don't know
how to administrate/use it.  I can't seem to find the user/admin manual either.

Can someone point me to any any documents ?

Thanks,
Nick


subject: [Wikitech-l] test-de bug reports

body:
Hello!

Is anybody still keeping an eye on
http://test-de.wikipedia.com/wiki/wikipedia%3ABeobachtete+Fehler ?

I'm sure you guys are busy, but ... ;-)

Can I help somehow? Shall I try to translate the page (I'm not so good
in translating, but I'd try). I don't know if Altavista's babelfish
could help here.

Is it really a good idea to keep the [[/talk]] links at the bottom of
the pages? On the English WP's RecentChanges I see quite often the
comment "deleted /talk link". So maybe they shouldn't be transformed to
be pointing to the namespace, but deleted?

Kurt


body:
We use the "RewriteRule" directive to rewrite the /wiki/ subdirectory
to point to wiki.phtml.  Like this:

RewriteEngine on
RewriteRule ^/wiki/(.*)$ /wiki.phtml?title=$1
RewriteRule ^/wiki/wiki.phtml(.*) /wiki.phtml$1

The first RewriteRule handles the requests for /wiki/*, and the second
fixes what the first one breaks.  These are Apache directives, and I
beleive they rely on having mod_rewrite compiled in (or dynamically
loaded).

Jason Richey

Nick Kanakakorn wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I got wiki up and running on the first page (wiki.phtml).  My environment
> is Redhat 7.1 with MySQL 3.23.36 , Apache 1.23, and php 4.2.1.  MySQL,
> apache, and PHP works fine.
>
> Wiki does not seem to work correctly.  On the first page, the
> link to "edit page" does not allow me to edit the first page.  Second, any
> links to /wiki/special:xxx such as /wiki/special:ListUsers does not work.
> I got error :
>
> "The requested URL /wiki/special:ListUsers was not found on this server."
>
> I don't know whether I misconfigure anything or because I just don't know
> how to administrate/use it.  I can't seem to find the user/admin manual either.
>
> Can someone point me to any any documents ?
>
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at ross.bomis.com
> http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


from_name: Brion L. VIBBER

body:
On ?a?, 2002-06-13 at 14:29, lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
> If it does break your browser, let me know in gory detail--your OS,
> your browser and version, the page you display (KQ gave me a screen
> capture--that's perfect).

Looks and works fine in Mozilla 1.1alpha/Linux and Konqueror 3.0.1. At
last, free of nasty tables, thankyouthankyou!... but there's just one
problem.

If the window is not vertically tall enough, the sidebar doesn't fit and
there's no way to scroll it to get to the last few items. The exact
necessary height will depend on the font and font size, and the number
of items in the sidebar can further vary depending on context.

Here's my Mozilla sized to fit an 800x600 screen (don't laugh, there are
people still using this resolution every day! My own mother only
recently broke the 800x600 habit by buying a 1280x1024 LCD monitor...
which she runs at 1024x768. Sigh...):
  http://leuksman.com/misc/wikishot.png
Admittedly, the Mozilla interface takes up a lot of extra room. But the
sidebar on this page is about the shortest you're likely to find it, so
I'm fudging in the right direction.

I can make it fit by changing the font size:
  http://leuksman.com/misc/wikishot2.png
But it's not legible anymore.

Even at 1024x768, it's pushing it at the default font size:
  http://leuksman.com/misc/wikishot3.png

Considering that the full wikipedia sidebar (including sysop tools and
"this user's edits" this can come to about 40 lines of text) barely fits
on my screen at 1280x1024 -- _after_ I scroll down -- I must say I'm a
little skeptical about a non-scrollable sidebar.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Page layout in new code

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from_name: koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Page layout in new code

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from_name: Robert Graham Merkel

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New wiki renders fine with Mozilla 1.0RC3/Linux

body:
No problems - I checked a couple of pages (including one or
two w/images), and there doesn't seem to be any issues.

--
------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Merkel	                           rgmerk at mira.net

Go You Big Red Fire Engine
-- Unknown Audience Member at Adam Hills standup gig
------------------------------------------------------------


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Page layout in new code

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body:
Hi All,

Thanks Jason and lcrocker to point me out.  It turns out that this is one
of the problem.  The other problem I had was with PHP 4.2.1.  I switched
to PHP 4.1.2 and I can edit the page afterward.

I think the root cause of the problem comes from wiki.phtml which has
$action as global; PHP 4.2.1 by default does not allow variable from
GET/POST to be global.  The php.ini sets the variable "register_globals"
to be off.  I switched to PHP 4.1.2 which has this variable on and things
seem to work.

-Nick

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Jason Richey wrote:

> We use the "RewriteRule" directive to rewrite the /wiki/ subdirectory
> to point to wiki.phtml.  Like this:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Wiki does not seem to work correctly.  On the first page, the
> > link to "edit page" does not allow me to edit the first page.  Second, any
> > links to /wiki/special:xxx such as /wiki/special:ListUsers does not work.
> > I got error :
> >
> > "The requested URL /wiki/special:ListUsers was not found on this server."


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Karen AKA Kajikit

body:
On Friday 14 June 2002 12:01 pm, Karen wrote:
> I promise to use my powers only for good :)
>
> Seriously, Maveric said I should ask because it would make doing
> maintenance easier. I've been trying to make a start on unshuffling the
> 'country' entries from /s to proper titles but it takes forever and a
> day!

I forgot to tell Karen to also list her user name and/or user id - mea culpa.
I went ahead and editted her status to make her a sysop so she could get to
work. I'm sure Jimbo would have already done so himself if he knew her user
name (which is [[user:Karen Johnson]], BTW).

Hope this doesn't get me in trouble :)

maveric149


from_name: Karen AKA Kajikit

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Can I be a sysop pretty please?

body:
I promise to use my powers only for good :)

Seriously, Maveric said I should ask because it would make doing
maintenance easier. I've been trying to make a start on unshuffling the
'country' entries from /s to proper titles but it takes forever and a
day!

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] a small mystery...

body:
At 06:21 PM 6/15/02 +1000, Karen AKA Kajikit wrote:
>I was going to use my shiny new sysop power to remove an elderly empty
>camelcase user todo page that's obviously obsolete. So I clicked on the
>'delete' button in the menu and it said 'are you really sure' and I
>clicked on 'yes I want to continue' and then I got a file 404 error and
>the page is still there... is that because I am not actually approved to
>delete pages? (fair enough if so) Or is there some kind of buggy thing
>creeping in that you should know about? Or did I do something wrong?
>
>The page I was going to get rid of is one that's been cluttering up the
>orphans list for the last two months so it's hardly vital to continuing
>operations!
>http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/WojPob/ToDoList
>
>Karen Johnson, slightly puzzled

I run into this problem a lot. There's a bug in the current code; when you
click on the confirmation link and get the 404, you have to manually edit
the resulting URL to change the URL-encoded "%2F" into a "/". For some
reason, URL-encoding the slash in the article name screws up Wikipedia's
delete function.

Hopefully, this will be fixed soon. :)

--
"Let there be light." - Last words of Bomb #20, "Dark Star"


subject: [Wikipedia-l] a small mystery...

body:
At 07:09 PM 6/15/02 +1000, Karen AKA Kajikit wrote:
>Ah, ok... so when I get the 404 error I have to go up to the url in the
>window and change the %2F to a / and hit return and then it will be able
>to continue? Just trying to work this out...

Yup. You should get an ordinary "page successfully deleted" response after
that.

--
"Let there be light." - Last words of Bomb #20, "Dark Star"


from_name: Larry Sanger

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: The case against "invariant sections"

body:
I don't know if anyone will disagree with you now, Axel.  I have
absolutely no opinion about this anymore, except to say that it would be
nice if people credited Wikipedia as an original source if it was an
original source (somehow, in many but probably not all cases).  Even last
October I thought it was quite clear that we'd given up on having that
specifically-formatted invariant section.  I didn't change the format
(which I borrowed from DMOZ, of course) simply because I was going to let
Jimbo do it, and he just never got around to it.  He, probably, promptly
forgot about it if he ever knew that this was being expected of him.  :-)
So the issue is wide open, as far as I know.

Larry


subject: [Wikipedia-l] The case against "invariant sections"

body:
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Junk uploads, bogus user accounts and "trusted hand" status

body:
I'm sure many of you have noticed that recently there has been a growing
problem of people creating user accounts for the sole purpose of using
wikipedia's upload utility to place copyrighted and otherwise inappropriate
material on the server.

We might want to discuss further limiting just who can use this utility
because this is beginning to be a maintenance issue for the syops and the
presence of these bogus user accounts is also over-reporting the number of
true (as in contributing) users we have .

I know the "trusted hand" status is in the database already so it might be
easy to limit this ability to "trusted hand" or greater status users. It
would also be nice to have this status granted automatically if say two
conditions are met: 1) a user account is at least one month old and 2) this
user has edited a certain number of articles (I would be liberal and set this
at 30, but I wouldn't mind having it set at up to 100).

And while we are at it we might also want to grant trusted hands the ability
to do things that currently only sysops can do -- like edit certain protected
pages (those set to "is_trusted" perhaps? "is_sysop" would then only be used
to protect established policy pages and for emergencies -- if a "trusted
hand" went on a rampage it would be simple to just change the user's status).
I wonder if a script could be written to change the status of all current
users that have edited a certain number of articles? The sysops could always
do this by hand if need be.

Oh, and if something like this were established we should encourage sysops to
manually promote outstanding new users to "trusted hand" status early (there
are several outstanding examples of new users already: they started off
running and "got it" very early).

Just a thought....

maveric149


body:
On Saturday 15 June 2002 12:01 pm, Axel wrote:
> The FOLDOC computing dictionary has been licenced to us under GFDL
> without invariant sections. We have incorporated many articles from
> them. Two weeks ago, somebody asked me whether the material from our
> TeX article (http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/TeX), which was originally
> based on FOLDOC's but has since grown considerably, could be
> reintegrated into FOLDOC. The answer is: only if they put our
> Wikipedia table into the FOLDOC entry, which they are unlikely to do
> because it doesn't really fit with their article formatting.

Uh oh, if this is true then this is evil (TM). We should be not be limiting
the exchange of wikipedia text in this way -- especially with somebody else
using the same darn license. They let us use their initial text, we shouldn't
be placing unnecessary restrictions on the use of our material (especially
when we are, like Axel mentions, the obvious leader of the Open/Free Content
movement). All we should do is ask them to link to the wikipedia version of
the text -- not require this by insisting on the use of invariant sections or
by any other means for that matter. I'm sure they would be more than happy to
voluntarily link to the wikipedia version if we asked nicely (and we should
also link to their version voluntarily, just to be nice).

> These are two examples of the fledgling open content movement that's
> growing right now. We are currently the clear leader of this movement,
> but we are not playing very nicely. If everybody required their own
> invariant sections, cooperation and exchange would become almost
> impossible. I believe that this movement is ultimately even more
> important than Wikipedia. We should do everything to foster it, if
> only out of self-interest.

Definitely agree. Isn't this issue similar to the original "advertising"
problem of the BSD license that prevented early BSD licensed stuff from being
incorporated into GPL'd software? One could imagine the problems this may
cause if everybody required an 'invariant section' -- after a lot of swapping
of text back and forth the invariant sections of FDL'd works would soon be
longer than the work itself! Not to mention the fact that Axel points out of
the problems that are created for those that don't require, or even forbid
the use of, invariant sections.

Although, this all may be for moot -- [[wikipedia:copyrights]] states that:
"By placing your work in Wikipedia, you agree to grant its users permission
to use, copy, distribute and/or modify the work under the terms of the GNU
Free Documentation License, Version 1.1 or any later version published by the
Free Software Foundation; with no invariant sections, no front-cover texts,
and no back-cover texts."
Which has been my understanding of the issue all along (there is a note on
that page that this statement has not be approved yet, though -- maybe it is
time to do so?).

If we do go (or already are) "invariant free" this may have the side-effect
of reducing the amount of external text's we can obtain (esp. from many
governments and most US states). Many times all the author/owner of external
text requires is recognition for their work -- which isn't possible to ensure
without an invariant section. But then, Axel is right in stating that there
are larger issues at stake than making our job of creating new articles
easier.

Power to the wiki!

maveric149


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: meta upload

body:
http://meta.wikipedia.com/wiki.phtml?title=special:Upload

Yikes! I just checked some of the newer meta uploads and came across some
rather humorous, yet totally inappropriate and copyright infringing, toon
porn along with other rubbish. For some reason I can't log-in to the meta so
I don't know if I have sysop powers there (I probably don't). Can somebody
who does have such powers delete this stuff?

It also might be a good idea to grant sysop's the ability to do their thing
over at the meta too -- just to prevent this sort of thing from getting out
of control (there would be little reason to delete or move many, if any,
pages pages there, but being able to delete inappropriate uploads would be
nice).

BTW, is it really necessary to have two upload utilities in the first place?
Both upload pages have instructions in English and do the same thing.
Shouldn't we have one central upload utility for the whole project with maybe
a couple of other ones for each of the most active non-English wikipedias
that have syops of their own?

maveric149


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Junk uploads, bogus user accounts and
  "trusted hand" status

body:
At 03:48 PM 6/15/02 -0700, Daniel Mayer wrote:
>We might want to discuss further limiting just who can use this utility
>because this is beginning to be a maintenance issue for the syops and the
>presence of these bogus user accounts is also over-reporting the number of
>true (as in contributing) users we have .

In addition to a special "uploads allowed" flag like this, I am really
looking forward to getting some better utilities built into Wikipedia for
housekeeping use. A "what articles link to this image?" link would be an
ideal example, in this particular case; I wouldn't be surprised if more
than half of the stuff in the uploads directory is junk that isn't being
used anywhere.

A way to search for externally-linked images in articles would be nice,
too; I think that in general all images in Wikipedia should be a part of
the database itself, so that the whole encyclopedia can be easily packaged
and distributed.

And, while I'm at it, how about some way to automatically locate "talk"
pages belonging to redirects or are otherwise orphaned (these often get
left behind when articles are moved or deleted), pages which should be
considered orphans because they're only linked to by redirects and/or
"talk" pages, etc.? I like going on cleaning binges when I'm not feeling
creative enough to actually write or edit articles, and a list of stuff
like that would be great to work from.

--
"Let there be light." - Last words of Bomb #20, "Dark Star"


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Karen AKA Kajikit

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
> On Friday 14 June 2002 12:01 pm, Karen wrote:
> > I promise to use my powers only for good :)
> >
> > Seriously, Maveric said I should ask because it would make doing
> > maintenance easier. I've been trying to make a start on unshuffling the
> > 'country' entries from /s to proper titles but it takes forever and a
> > day!
>
> I forgot to tell Karen to also list her user name and/or user id - mea culpa.
> I went ahead and editted her status to make her a sysop so she could get to
> work. I'm sure Jimbo would have already done so himself if he knew her user
> name (which is [[user:Karen Johnson]], BTW).
>
> Hope this doesn't get me in trouble :)

Thanks... I don't think they'll lynch you for it... will they? I've done
some more shuffling and it's certainly a LOT easier with that 'move'
button! I should have thought of putting my proper name onto the request
but I expect people to be psychic and to just know who I am! lol I
forgot that I use my real name on the pedia but netscape is set to use
my nick.

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] a small mystery...

body:
I was going to use my shiny new sysop power to remove an elderly empty
camelcase user todo page that's obviously obsolete. So I clicked on the
'delete' button in the menu and it said 'are you really sure' and I
clicked on 'yes I want to continue' and then I got a file 404 error and
the page is still there... is that because I am not actually approved to
delete pages? (fair enough if so) Or is there some kind of buggy thing
creeping in that you should know about? Or did I do something wrong?

The page I was going to get rid of is one that's been cluttering up the
orphans list for the last two months so it's hardly vital to continuing
operations!
http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/WojPob/ToDoList

Karen Johnson, slightly puzzled

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
Currently, we require an "invariant section", which means that anybody
has to put a specifically formatted HTML table on every page that
uses Wikipedia materials, asking people to contribute to Wikipedia.
(See below (*) for the rather messy details.)

Here, I want to argue that we should abandon this invariant section.

The FOLDOC computing dictionary has been licenced to us under GFDL
without invariant sections. We have incorporated many articles from
them. Two weeks ago, somebody asked me whether the material from our
TeX article (http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/TeX), which was originally
based on FOLDOC's but has since grown considerably, could be
reintegrated into FOLDOC. The answer is: only if they put our
Wikipedia table into the FOLDOC entry, which they are unlikely to do
because it doesn't really fit with their article formatting.

There is a new, exciting and fast growing math encyclopedia at
http://planetmath.org; everything is licensed under GFDL without
invariant sections, and can therefore be used by us without problems
(while acknowledging the source, as we do for FOLDOC articles). I
haven't copied anything over yet, but I'm sure I will in the future.
People have asked me whether they could take Wikipedia materials and
post them on PlanetMath. For articles that I have written exclusively
myself, and there aren't many, this is no problem. For others, the
Wikipedia invariant table is required, which pretty much excludes them
because of the site's particular layout.

These are two examples of the fledgling open content movement that's
growing right now. We are currently the clear leader of this movement,
but we are not playing very nicely. If everybody required their own
invariant sections, cooperation and exchange would become almost
impossible. I believe that this movement is ultimately even more
important than Wikipedia. We should do everything to foster it, if
only out of self-interest.

Even without an invariant section, the GFDL requires proper
attribution of all materials. Rather than fretting over the possible
evil schemes of big bad corporations, why not apply wiki principles:
trust that people are basically good, and that the more freedoms you
give them, the better the outcomes will be.

Axel

----
(*) The invariant section requirement is alluded to in
http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/GNU+Free+Documentation+License, but no
link is given. http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/wikipedia:copyright
contains a "draft" which explicitly disputes an invariant section. The
invariant section requirement used to be contained in the uneditable
file http://www.wikipedia.com/license/fdl.html but that has ceased to
exist after the software change. It can still be viewed at
http://web.archive.org/web/20011112090138/http://www.wikipedia.com/license/fdl.html.
The invariant sections, or "linkbacks" have been defended by Jimbo and
Larry in several Wikipedia-l messages in October 2001:
http://www.nupedia.com/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2001-October/date.html


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: meta upload

body:
At 05:22 PM 6/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>BTW, is it really necessary to have two upload utilities in the first place?
>Both upload pages have instructions in English and do the same thing.
>Shouldn't we have one central upload utility for the whole project with maybe
>a couple of other ones for each of the most active non-English wikipedias
>that have syops of their own?

If it's not too inefficient and space-consuming, I would personally prefer
to see each wiki have its own entirely separate upload space. That way it
will be much easier to keep things tidy. As it stands, I'm paranoid about
deleting stuff from Uploads because even if it isn't used _here_, it might
still be used on one of the other language wikis. I imagine such links
wouldn't show up in any future "what pages link this image?" function, either.

--
"Let there be light." - Last words of Bomb #20, "Dark Star"


subject: [Wikipedia-l] a small mystery...

body:
Bryan Derksen wrote:
>
> At 06:21 PM 6/15/02 +1000, Karen AKA Kajikit wrote:
> >I was going to use my shiny new sysop power to remove an elderly empty
> >camelcase user todo page that's obviously obsolete. So I clicked on the
> >'delete' button in the menu and it said 'are you really sure' and I
> >clicked on 'yes I want to continue' and then I got a file 404 error and
> >the page is still there... is that because I am not actually approved to
> >delete pages? (fair enough if so) Or is there some kind of buggy thing
> >creeping in that you should know about? Or did I do something wrong?
> >
> >The page I was going to get rid of is one that's been cluttering up the
> >orphans list for the last two months so it's hardly vital to continuing
> >operations!
> >http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/WojPob/ToDoList
> >
> >Karen Johnson, slightly puzzled
>
> I run into this problem a lot. There's a bug in the current code; when you
> click on the confirmation link and get the 404, you have to manually edit
> the resulting URL to change the URL-encoded "%2F" into a "/". For some
> reason, URL-encoding the slash in the article name screws up Wikipedia's
> delete function.
>
> Hopefully, this will be fixed soon. :)

Ah, ok... so when I get the 404 error I have to go up to the url in the
window and change the %2F to a / and hit return and then it will be able
to continue? Just trying to work this out...

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: meta upload

body:
On sab, 2002-06-15 at 17:45, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> At 05:22 PM 6/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >BTW, is it really necessary to have two upload utilities in the first place?
> >Both upload pages have instructions in English and do the same thing.
> >Shouldn't we have one central upload utility for the whole project with maybe
> >a couple of other ones for each of the most active non-English wikipedias
> >that have syops of their own?
>
> If it's not too inefficient and space-consuming, I would personally prefer
> to see each wiki have its own entirely separate upload space. That way it
> will be much easier to keep things tidy.

That's how it would work, if the non-English wikipedias were already
converted to the new software, like some of us were promised months ago.
Since this has been delayed and delayed and delayed, everybody has to
use the common upload spaces.

However, a lot of stuff can easily be shared between wikis --
photographs, some maps and graphs that don't contain language-dependent
text. We can't _force_ people to upload ten copies of the same thing,
and I'm not sure we ought to.

Personally, I upload things that are appropriate for an English-language
article to the English wiki (textless images, images with English text,
sound files that are samples of other languages suitable for an article
_about_ that language), and anything else to the meta wiki.

> As it stands, I'm paranoid about
> deleting stuff from Uploads because even if it isn't used _here_, it might
> still be used on one of the other language wikis.

Anything uploaded by an unknown user without a filled-in description
field in the log (in English or otherwise) is fair game for deletion as
far as I'm concerned. (Of course, that doesn't apply to meta, which is
running an old version of the software without the description field in
the upload form.)

> I imagine such links
> wouldn't show up in any future "what pages link this image?" function, either.

Not without more integration between the databases than is currently
available, no.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] how to delete-protect an upload

body:
Oh, no!  My sysop powers are no match for his special characters!

There exists a graphic at
http://www.wikipedia.com/upload/The%20newbie%20helper%5C%27%24.jpg ("The
newbie helper\'$.jpg") in plain text -- note the backslash and the
apostrophe) that should be returned to the void whence it came.
Clicking the delete link returns the message "File The newbie
helper\\\'$.jpg deleted!" -- but the file is still there.

Would someone with powers greater than mine please nuke this
abomination?  And then perhaps look into handling strange characters
more gracefully?

Thanks!

--
 Sean Barrett     | Diabolus fecit, ut id facerem.
 sean at epoptic.com | [The Devil made me do it.]


in_reply_to: <200206151627.SAA29945@linde.uni-paderborn.de>; from axel@uni-paderborn.de on Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 06:27:31PM +0200

body:
On Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 06:27:31PM +0200, Axel Boldt wrote:
>
> The FOLDOC computing dictionary has been licenced to us under GFDL without
> invariant sections. We have incorporated many articles from them. Two
> weeks ago, somebody asked me whether the material from our TeX article
> (http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/TeX), which was originally based on
> FOLDOC's but has since grown considerably, could be reintegrated into
> FOLDOC. The answer is: only if they put our Wikipedia table into the
> FOLDOC entry, which they are unlikely to do because it doesn't really fit
> with their article formatting.

I'm not sure about this but should according to the GFDL FOLDOC then also
not have a notice on its site saying that it is published under the GFDL?

> These are two examples of the fledgling open content movement that's
> growing right now. We are currently the clear leader of this movement,
> but we are not playing very nicely. If everybody required their own
> invariant sections, cooperation and exchange would become almost
> impossible. I believe that this movement is ultimately even more
> important than Wikipedia. We should do everything to foster it, if
> only out of self-interest.

I completely agree with this and it made me wondering about the following:

1. Doesn't the GFDL now already require that you include a URL to Wikipedia
   if you copy material from it? I was thinking of section 4.J:

    J. Preserve the network location, if any, given in the Document for
       public access to a Transparent copy of the Document, and likewise the
       network locations given in the Document for previous versions it was
       based on. These may be placed in the "History" section. You may omit
       a network location for a work that was published at least four years
       before the Document itself, or if the original publisher of the
       version it refers to gives permission.

2. What about the requirement that the 5 main original authors should be
   mentioned as is said in 5.B:

    B. List on the Title Page, as authors, one or more persons or entities
       responsible for authorship of the modifications in the Modified
       Version, together with at least five of the principal authors of the
       Document (all of its principal authors, if it has less than five).

   That would be a bit impractical for Wikipedia, wouldn't it? Or am I
   misunderstanding something?

-- Jan Hidders


from_name: Pierre Abbat

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Delenda Imagines

body:
NorthCarolina1.htm - illegible black-on-blue gibberish
eye.htm - "PI CT UR ES"
Anything else by Jokerman9001
dust_1280_final_low.jpg - apparently a scene from a video game
"Artist - WARDI 3.wma" - unknown file format, but includes "Track", "AlbumTitle", probably a sound recording
untitled.bmp - fragmented picture, hard to make sense of
lalo and bro.bmp - picture of two faces - BMPs should not be allowed, since they're uncompressed and don't work in browsers
aNUK - this is actually a JPEG, and shows the words "Nintendo UK", but with no extension it displays as gribble

BTW, is there a way to find the article about a picture?

phma


body:
Jan Hidders writes:
> Doesn't the GFDL now already require that you include a URL to
> Wikipedia if you copy material from it?

I believe this is essentially the only practical way of complying with
4.J and 5.B on the web. You need to inform the reader about a
"transparent copy" (= wiki text) and about the "principal authors"
(= history of wiki article).

I would be in favor of adding a phrase to [[Wikipedia:copyrights]]
saying in effect

"If you use our material, we ask for a conspicuous link back to the
original Wikipedia article. If you include such a link, we consider
your obligations under 4.J and 5.B GFDL fulfilled."

Axel


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Delendae Imagines

body:
ik schildpad.jpg - picture of someone with turtle in background
SpiritofFlight.jpg - unless it's a piece of art and there's an article about it
Foto1.JPG - picture of a dog on a futon
murf.jpg - a face view of a dog
Other dog pictures by Angel
pino.jpg - Big Bird and a ball
Cats-35.jpg - picture of a cat with Arabic writing
Atbra-cats.jpg - cat heads
Lady.gif - "WELCOME LADY COLOR" animated image
Anything else by Sappho or Omanash
debbedunning34.jpg - some woman with too much skin showing
Anything else by KingBee
samiajpg.jpg - someone's face

fennek.jpg is NOT a delenda, even though the uploader has no page and put no
comment. Can someone put a comment on the upload, so that we know it's a
fennec and not someone's pet dog?

phma


in_reply_to: <200206152241.AAA01574@linde.uni-paderborn.de>; from axel@uni-paderborn.de on Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 12:41:51AM +0200

body:
On Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 12:41:51AM +0200, Axel Boldt wrote:
> Jan Hidders writes:
> > Doesn't the GFDL now already require that you include a URL to
> > Wikipedia if you copy material from it?
>
> I believe this is essentially the only practical way of complying with
> 4.J and 5.B on the web.

Oops. The 5.B should have been 4.B of course. My mistake.

-- Jan Hidders


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Delendae Imagines

body:
5000naked_2.jpg - a gathering of people
khart.jpg - some scene at a seashore
Anything else by Manj
nf01511.jpg - "THE GRAMMY AWARDS" and a picture of someone

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Can someone ban Jokerman?

body:
Jokerman9001 has contributed nothing and is continually uploading garbage.
Can he be banned?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Can someone ban Jokerman?

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Invariant Sections

body:
Maveric149 sez:

If we do go (or already are) "invariant free" this may have the
side-effect
of reducing the amount of external text's we can obtain (esp. from many
governments and most US states). Many times all the author/owner of
external
text requires is recognition for their work -- which isn't possible to
ensure
without an invariant section. But then, Axel is right in stating that
there
are larger issues at stake than making our job of creating new articles
easier.

But we are recognising their work. They often don't require that people
copying from us (or, even editing our work) need to recognise their
work. Is there a problem here?

The edit problem could be remedied by having invariant sections per
article: but this is likely to be abused. Someone will put in an
invariant section with a porn ad.

Dragon.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Maintenance page

body:
On Sunday 16 June 2002 11:19, Magnus Manske wrote:
> I just added a "special:maintenance" page to the CVS. The purpose is to
> provide a collection of useful functions to keep the 'pedia running
> smoothly and to find some often occuring obstacles.
>
> Currently, it is limited to sysops only, as some of the functions use quite
> some resources. So, if anyone updates the live site, it won't collapse;)
> (Can somebody please check if I added that page to the sidebar in the
> standard skin? I know I did it for CologneBlue, which is now the standard
> skin;)

How about finding users who haven't contributed anything, but upload files?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Can someone ban Jokerman?

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Maintenance page

body:
On dim, 2002-06-16 at 08:19, Magnus Manske wrote:
> BTW, I noticed that when I edit an existing article (not a new one,
> strangely), I am not logged in for that page, and I don't have the "minor
> change" option as a result. Hitting "Preview" logs me in again. I couldn't
> reproduce that on my local copy. Can anyone please check?

That's the same old cookie path problem that makes going to
http://www.wikipedia.com/ not show up as logged in. Assuming that the
running software includes the fix by now, just log out and log back in.

Or, play with your browser's cookie file and change the path for the
Wikipedia cookies from /wiki/ to /.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: nviakkxcqbnc at spammotel.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] The use of [[articel/suba-articel]]

body:
I have the impression that on the English Wikipedia the links of the
type [[articel/sub-articel]] are converted to [[sub-articel of articel]]
So that there are no somthing/somthing  pages left.

Why ? Is it a software thing ? It still works on the test-wikipedia.
Or is it Wikipedia English pollicy (that other Wikipedia's not have to
follow)
I like to know it because we are still using that method of linking on
the Dutch wikipedia. -- giskart


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Can someone ban Jokerman?

body:
On Sunday 16 June 2002 14:35, koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com wrote:
> Also: how about a feature to limit the size of files uploaded?  That
> would take care of most mp3s, and certainly also *.wma.  And Omanash
> at least has a static IP since he just uploaded something over 650 MB.

Not necessarily. He may have a cable modem connection with an IP address that
changes every night.

What's a wma, btw?

phma


subject: [Wikitech-l] Maintenance page

body:
On Sunday 16 June 2002 12:34, Magnus Manske wrote:
> > How about finding users who haven't contributed anything, but
> > upload files?
>
> Nice idea, but what if they learn to edit/save a page, changing nothing (or
> leaving their own "signature")? Or they fill their user page with random
> stuff?

AFAICT the most prolific uploaders of junk never contribute anything -
they're looking for a place to upload files and probably did a web search for
"upload". If they learn to edit a page, they may start contributing something
useful, and if they don't, we can deal with them as regular vandals.

> I think the soultion for the upload page is as follows:
> * Only certain file types are allowed (JPEG/JPG/PNG, maybe)
> * We need a better way to link to images ([[image:xyz.jpg]], for example),
> so we can maintain a list of used images
> * A better structure is needed for storing these files (S/ST/STUFF.JPG
> instead of just stuff.jpg, for example)
> * A better "recent uploads" page. The log page is a total mess :(

I think there should be a page listing all the existent files, their size,
and what the "file" command says they are (which may not correspond to their
extension, as in aNUK). It should be sortable by filename, date, size,
filename reversed, and uploader.

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Delendae Imagines

body:
mai06.jpg - rear view of someone's legs
bewegend!.jpg - badly illuminated picture of two heads
Get%2520QuickTime%2520Pro - "hiho"
slam1.au - some sort of closing sound
BtnPlayer.class - ?
Other stuff by Haolegirl

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Serious bugs in "move page" function!

body:
The "move this page" feature currently has a bug that resets the
timestamp for all old edits to the current time. Another bug in the
history list function causes most of the edits to disappear when looking
at the history for a page that has been moved this way, as the edits
were being sorted by timestamp... the edit that should terminate the
list comes up first instead, and it's prematurely cut off.

I've just submitted to CVS fixes for these to special_movepage.php and
special_dohistory.php; I highly recommend that at least these two files
be updated on the running 'pedia as soon as possible, and that people
refrain from using the "move" feature until this is done.

Note that old edits and authorship information are _not_ lost from the
database, but the times that the edits were made are lost.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Can someone ban Jokerman?

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from_name: Guardian Tor

body:
I completely agree.

- Stephen Gilbert

> I'm in favor of linkbacks (it's just polite) but not invariant sections, and especially not a table with any specific format.  My 2 cents, or maybe less.
>
> kq0

________________________________
Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia
   http://www.wikipedia.com

--
_______________________________________________
Download the free Opera browser at http://www.opera.com/

Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/

Powered by Outblaze


body:
> On Saturday 15 June 2002 12:01 pm, Axel wrote:
> > The FOLDOC computing dictionary has been licenced to us under GFDL
> > without invariant sections. We have incorporated many articles from
> > them. Two weeks ago, somebody asked me whether the material from our
> > TeX article (http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/TeX), which was originally
> > based on FOLDOC's but has since grown considerably, could be
> > reintegrated into FOLDOC. The answer is: only if they put our
> > Wikipedia table into the FOLDOC entry, which they are unlikely to do
> > because it doesn't really fit with their article formatting.
>
> Uh oh, if this is true then this is evil (TM). We should be not be limiting
> the exchange of wikipedia text in this way -- especially with somebody else
> using the same darn license. They let us use their initial text, we shouldn't
> be placing unnecessary restrictions on the use of our material (especially
> when we are, like Axel mentions, the obvious leader of the Open/Free Content
> movement). All we should do is ask them to link to the wikipedia version of
> the text -- not require this by insisting on the use of invariant sections or
> by any other means for that matter.

This is a rather old issue that never quite got resolved. There was quite a bit of opposition to the table idea (which was taken from dmoz), and it was generally agreed that while a linkback should be required, we should not require the big (and ugly) dmoz-style table. The problem is that once this agreement was reached, the issue kind of faded into the background.

I think we should get this firmly resolved.
--
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Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/

Powered by Outblaze


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Maintenance page

body:
I just added a "special:maintenance" page to the CVS. The purpose is to
provide a collection of useful functions to keep the 'pedia running smoothly
and to find some often occuring obstacles.

Currently, it is limited to sysops only, as some of the functions use quite
some resources. So, if anyone updates the live site, it won't collapse;)
(Can somebody please check if I added that page to the sidebar in the
standard skin? I know I did it for CologneBlue, which is now the standard
skin;)

Existing functions on that page are:
* Find articles that REDIRECT to a REDIRECT. I didn't include an "autofix"
function - too dangerous, I suppose, without further testing. WARNING: This
function uses the LIKE SQL statement to look for "#REDIRECT %"!
* Find articles that link to themselves. Nice and fast one. Lists many user
pages, though, if they signed it somewhere...
* Find article that explicitely link to their own "Talk:" page. Also quite
fast.
* Uploaded files and where they are used. By popular demand;) WARNING: This
uses LIKE "%URL%" for *every* uploaded file!!! Also, it might not work on
all filenames, especially those with special chars. Needs serious workover.

BTW, I noticed that when I edit an existing article (not a new one,
strangely), I am not logged in for that page, and I don't have the "minor
change" option as a result. Hitting "Preview" logs me in again. I couldn't
reproduce that on my local copy. Can anyone please check?

Magnus


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 02:48:02PM +0200, nviakkxcqbnc at spammotel.com wrote:
> I have the impression that on the English Wikipedia the links of the
> type [[articel/sub-articel]] are converted to [[sub-articel of articel]]
> So that there are no somthing/somthing  pages left.
>
> Why ? Is it a software thing ? It still works on the test-wikipedia.
> Or is it Wikipedia English pollicy (that other Wikipedia's not have to
> follow)
> I like to know it because we are still using that method of linking on
> the Dutch wikipedia. -- giskart

It's partially software thing - in php wikipedia "X/Y" is just a name
and doesn't have any special relation to "X". That mainly means
that there is no automatic link from "X/Y" to "X".

But you can chose any way of naming articles you like.
Names like "Y of X" are easier to understand and look nicer,
that's why we're switching to them on Polish wikipedia.

If Dutch people think that "X/Y" are better, they are free to use
such naming.


body:
On dim, 2002-06-16 at 17:59, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> Once this is fixed, can you explain how to use this feature? The only way I
> know of to move a page is to open both the old page and the new one in
> separate browser windows and cut and paste (being sure to save the new one
> first before saving the one I cut from).

It's currently restricted to sysops; I'm not sure if this is an intended
policy or if that's just a legacy of it originally being introduced as a
quasi-experimental feature...

If you are logged in as a user with sysop status, there should be a link
"Move this page" in the sidebar when looking at an article. Click; type
in the new title, hit the button, et voila! The page is renamed, with
the complete editing history still intact, but under the new title. A
redirect page is created under the old title unless you unclick the
check box for that.

Note that it doesn't currently carry the associated talk page over
automatically; that should probably be added too.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Maintenance page

body:
> How about finding users who haven't contributed anything, but
> upload files?

Nice idea, but what if they learn to edit/save a page, changing nothing (or
leaving their own "signature")? Or they fill their user page with random
stuff?

I think the soultion for the upload page is as follows:
* Only certain file types are allowed (JPEG/JPG/PNG, maybe)
* We need a better way to link to images ([[image:xyz.jpg]], for example),
so we can maintain a list of used images
* A better structure is needed for storing these files (S/ST/STUFF.JPG
instead of just stuff.jpg, for example)
* A better "recent uploads" page. The log page is a total mess :(

This should make it easy to get rid of the vandals and still keep the "good
guys" going:)
But, this seems to be better suited in the new codebase (hear me, Lee?:)

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] what does this mean?

body:
On dim, 2002-06-16 at 17:50, Karen AKA Kajikit wrote:
> i was just trying to load the wikipedia for my day's play and I got a
> blank screen with this message :(
>
> Warning: Too many connections in
> /home/wiki-newest/work-http/databaseFunctions.php on line 11
> Could not connect to MySQL server:

The database server seems to have lost itself in thought for some time
now; I don't know if it's going to snap out of it on its own, or if
mysqld needs to be restarted. Jimbo, Jason?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Maintenance page

body:
On Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 06:34:37PM +0200, Magnus Manske wrote:
> I think the soultion for the upload page is as follows:

This "solution" is very bad, I already told it to lcrocker
(author of the new codebase), I'm only going to repeat it now.

> * Only certain file types are allowed (JPEG/JPG/PNG, maybe)

All formats should be allowed, including:
* sounds
* movies
* scripts
* tarballs
* any other multimedia files that might happen to be useful at some
  point
* any other type of files

> * We need a better way to link to images ([[image:xyz.jpg]], for example),
> so we can maintain a list of used images

* not every file is image
* it will break linking from more than 1 wikipedia

> * A better structure is needed for storing these files (S/ST/STUFF.JPG
> instead of just stuff.jpg, for example)

If you ever happen to have performance problems, just switch to
reiserfs. It easily handles hundreds of thousands files in single
directory. But I wouldn't expect problems with ext2 to appear anytime
soon.

And it's bad solution because you'll get badly balanced tree,
with some subdirectories having many times more files than others.

If you seriously think about tree structure, you should use
substr(md5($name),0,2) - that is 256 well-balanced subdirectories.


body:
On Sunday 16 June 2002 18:38, Brion L. VIBBER wrote:
> The "move this page" feature currently has a bug that resets the
> timestamp for all old edits to the current time. Another bug in the
> history list function causes most of the edits to disappear when looking
> at the history for a page that has been moved this way, as the edits
> were being sorted by timestamp... the edit that should terminate the
> list comes up first instead, and it's prematurely cut off.

Once this is fixed, can you explain how to use this feature? The only way I
know of to move a page is to open both the old page and the new one in
separate browser windows and cut and paste (being sure to save the new one
first before saving the one I cut from).

phma


from_name: lcrocker at nupedia.com

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] WMA: Whips My A**...

body:
> Also: how about a feature to limit the size of files uploaded?  That
> would take care of most mp3s, and certainly also *.wma.  And Omanash
> at least has a static IP since he just uploaded something over 650 MB.
>
> What's a wma, btw?

Windows Media Audio. More proprietary then MP3, more sucky than OGG,
less supported than many, many other things.

Should **almost** be banned on grounds of:

1) Copyright infringment: most are likely to be CD tracks
2) Completely unsuitable format: only readable by Windows without
conversion

Dragon.


subject: [Wikitech-l] 2 bugs in usemod import code, 1 fixed

body:
Bug 1 - import script tries to import articles which start with
lower-case letters, what might lead to clash.

Fix attached.

Bug 2 - import script has some single quotes escaping problem,
and articles with single quotes in name are not added to "linked"
table, and therefore are listed as not linked despite of being linked.

I couldn't find where the bug is.
-------------- next part --------------
--- convertWiki2SQL.php.orig	Mon Jun 17 09:06:37 2002
+++ convertWiki2SQL.php	Mon Jun 17 09:38:18 2002
@@ -28,6 +28,25 @@
 	#$recodeCharset = recodeCharsetStub ;
 	$recodeCharset = recodeCharsetLatin1 ; # Future conversions should all go to UTF-8

+function firstIsLowercaseEn ( $text ) {
+    $first = ord(substr($text, 0, 1));
+    if ($first >= ord("a") && $first <= ord("z"))
+	return true;
+    else
+	return false;
+}
+function firstIsLowercasePl ( $text ) {
+    $first = ord(substr($text, 0, 1));
+    if ($first > 128) {
+	return in_array ($first, array (0xB1, 0xE6, 0xEA, 0xB3, 0xF1, 0xB6, 0xFE, 0xBF, 0xBC));
+    } else if ($first >= ord("a") && $first <= ord("z")) {
+	    return true;
+    } else {
+	    return false;
+    }
+}
+$firstIsLowercase = firstIsLowercaseEn;
+
 ## Esperanto:
 if ( $wikiLanguage =="eo" ) {
 	$wikiTalk = "Priparolu" ;
@@ -69,6 +88,7 @@
 	return strtr ( $text , $l2u8 ) ;
 	}
 	$recodeCharset = recodeCharsetPl ;
+	$firstIsLowercase = firstIsLowercasePl;
 }

 ## Spanish
@@ -370,6 +392,7 @@
 	}

 function getTopics ( $dir ) {
+	global $firstIsLowercase;
 	$ret = array () ;

 	$mydir = opendir($dir);
@@ -379,11 +402,13 @@
 				$a = getTopics ( "$dir/$entry" ) ;
 				foreach ( $a as $x ) array_push ( $ret , "$entry/$x" ) ;
 			} else {
-				if (substr ($entry, strlen ( $entry ) - 3, 3) == '.db') {
+				if ( $firstIsLowercase ( $entry ) ) {
+				    print "Warning: File \"$entry\" starts with lower case letter, ignored
\n" ;
+				} else if (substr ($entry, strlen ( $entry ) - 3, 3) == '.db') {
 				    $x = substr ( $entry , 0 , strlen ( $entry ) - 3 ) ;
 				    array_push ( $ret , $x ) ;
 				} else {
-				    print "Warning: File \"$entry\" doesn't seem to contain an article
\n" ;
+				    print "Warning: File \"$entry\" doesn't seem to contain an article, ignored
\n" ;
 				}
 			}
 		}


body:
"Brion L. VIBBER" wrote:
>
> The "move this page" feature currently has a bug that resets the
> timestamp for all old edits to the current time. Another bug in the
> history list function causes most of the edits to disappear when looking
> at the history for a page that has been moved this way, as the edits
> were being sorted by timestamp... the edit that should terminate the
> list comes up first instead, and it's prematurely cut off.
>
> I've just submitted to CVS fixes for these to special_movepage.php and
> special_dohistory.php; I highly recommend that at least these two files
> be updated on the running 'pedia as soon as possible, and that people
> refrain from using the "move" feature until this is done.
>
> Note that old edits and authorship information are _not_ lost from the
> database, but the times that the edits were made are lost.

Darn... and it's such a handy function too. Hope it's fixed soon.

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] what does this mean?

body:
i was just trying to load the wikipedia for my day's play and I got a
blank screen with this message :(

Warning: Too many connections in
/home/wiki-newest/work-http/databaseFunctions.php on line 11
Could not connect to MySQL server:

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] what does this mean?

body:
"Brion L. VIBBER" wrote:
>
> On dim, 2002-06-16 at 17:50, Karen AKA Kajikit wrote:
> > i was just trying to load the wikipedia for my day's play and I got a
> > blank screen with this message :(
> >
> > Warning: Too many connections in
> > /home/wiki-newest/work-http/databaseFunctions.php on line 11
> > Could not connect to MySQL server:
>
> The database server seems to have lost itself in thought for some time
> now; I don't know if it's going to snap out of it on its own, or if
> mysqld needs to be restarted. Jimbo, Jason?

Aha! We have a wikipedia again... or at least I got to the front page
this time :)

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Turtle recall

body:
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body:
On Sunday 16 June 2002 21:24, Brion L. VIBBER wrote:
> It's currently restricted to sysops; I'm not sure if this is an intended
> policy or if that's just a legacy of it originally being introduced as a
> quasi-experimental feature...
>
> If you are logged in as a user with sysop status, there should be a link
> "Move this page" in the sidebar when looking at an article. Click; type
> in the new title, hit the button, et voila! The page is renamed, with
> the complete editing history still intact, but under the new title. A
> redirect page is created under the old title unless you unclick the
> check box for that.

Obviously I'm missing out. How do I become a sysop? Do I need a
recommendation?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Turtle recall

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from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

body:
At 05:13 PM 6/17/02 -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>On Sunday 16 June 2002 21:24, Brion L. VIBBER wrote:
> > It's currently restricted to sysops; I'm not sure if this is an intended
> > policy or if that's just a legacy of it originally being introduced as a
> > quasi-experimental feature...
> >
> > If you are logged in as a user with sysop status, there should be a link
> > "Move this page" in the sidebar when looking at an article. Click; type
> > in the new title, hit the button, et voila! The page is renamed, with
> > the complete editing history still intact, but under the new title. A
> > redirect page is created under the old title unless you unclick the
> > check box for that.
>
>Obviously I'm missing out. How do I become a sysop? Do I need a
>recommendation?

You email Jimbo and ask. He may have done it by now, just from your
posting here.

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Turtle recall

body:
I went to the Testudines page and it had just a picture, so I taxonomized it.
I left the picture there, but I don't see it anymore, even though there's an
<img> tag in the HTML. Anyone know what's happening?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Turtle recall

body:
On Monday 17 June 2002 19:38, lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
> It's an external link to an image at gimp-savvy.com, which appears
> to be down at the moment.  We shouldn't be linking to external
> images anyway.  We should find the image there (when the site is
> up again), or get it directly from NOAA where they got it, and
> upload it (perhaps after cropping and scaling as appropriate), then
> link to it locally.0

Hmmm, I wgot the picture to my /tmp directory and viewed it, and it's a
turtle. Should I upload it?

phma


from_name: Kurt Jansson

subject: [Wikitech-l] bug reports at test-de.wikipedia.com

body:
Okay, Ben-Zin from the German WP started translating our bug reports on
http://test-de.wikipedia.com/wiki/wikipedia:Bug_report

(German version on
http://test-de.wikipedia.com/wiki/wikipedia:Beobachtete_Fehler )

No excuses anymore ;-)

Kurt


subject: [Wikipedia-l] duk.JPG

body:
duk.JPG (a yellow motorcycle) is on the page where you upload files, but not
in the upload log. Who uploaded it, and is it used anywhere?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] AUM.htm

body:
This was uploaded so long ago that there is no record of who uploaded it. It
is a frameset with both sides 404 which pops up a message box. Should it be
deleted?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] More testing needed--PHP 4.2

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Proposed addition to wikipedia: Naming conventions

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body:
I'd like to add the following to the page:

=== Avoid diacritics ===
If a name has diacritics, for instance [[Jose Ramos-Horta|José
Ramos-Horta]], avoid the diacritics when naming an article. If a link has a
diacritic, what page it links to depends on the character set the browser is
set to. A UTF-8 browser goes to what looks to a Latin-1 browser as
"Jos&itrema;&iques;&1/2; Ramos-Horta", whereas a Latin-1 browser goes to an
article whose title has an invalid UTF-8 character.

Is that really UTF-8? I thought that ? was only two bytes in UTF-8. Those
entity codes I made up on the spot, but there really is such an article (go
to Jose Ramos-Horta and hit "pages that link here").

phma


from_name: Axel Boldt

body:
Since I am hearing several voices saying "invariant sections bad,
linkbacks good" and no forceful opposition, I will go ahead and edit
[[Wikipedia:copyrights]] and [[GFDL]] accordingly.

If anything I write is disagreeable, let me know either on this list
or in Talk:.

Axel


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Vandal info

body:
195.235.62.254  vandalized a couple of pages, leaving the address
jrariasf at ya.com on Stellar astronomy. Both addresses are in Spain:

inetnum:      195.235.62.0 - 195.235.62.255
netname:      ARQUINEX
descr:        Arquinex, sociedad de Arquitectura
country:      ES
admin-c:      JAP2-RIPE
tech-c:       JAP2-RIPE
status:       ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by:       MAINT-AS3352
changed:      mfmartin at ttd.ibernet.es 19981116
source:       RIPE

route:        195.235.0.0/16
descr:        Telefonica Data Espan~a
origin:       AS3352
mnt-by:       MAINT-AS3352
mnt-routes:   MAINT-AS3352
mnt-lower:    MAINT-AS3352
changed:      administracion.ripe at telefonica-data.com 20010308
changed:      administracion.ripe at telefonica-data.com  20020118
changed:      administracion.ripe at telefonica-data.com  20020313
source:       RIPE

person:       Jose Antonio Pastrana
address:      Arquinex S.A.
address:      Hospederia de San Bernardo 1
address:      45002 Toledo
address:      SPAIN
phone:        +34 25 21 33 62
fax-no:       +34 25 21 66 19
e-mail:       Arquitectos at arquinex.es
nic-hdl:      JAP2-RIPE
changed:      hostmaster at ibernet.es 19960624
source:       RIPE
----------------------------
inetnum:      62.151.0.0 - 62.151.127.255
netname:      YACOMNET
descr:        Ya.com Internet Factory
descr:        28108 Madrid SPAIN
country:      ES
admin-c:      JAA8-RIPE
admin-c:      AP9461-RIPE
admin-c:      DMR52-RIPE
tech-c:       YO11-RIPE
status:       ASSIGNED PA
notify:       jarribas at ya.com
notify:       apina at ya.com
notify:       david.moya at ya.com
mnt-by:       RIPE-NCC-NONE-MNT
changed:      hostmaster at ripe.net 20001121
source:       RIPE

route:        62.151.0.0/19
descr:        YIF Autonomous System Network
descr:        Ya.com Internet Factory
origin:       AS20838
remarks:      SPAM, Net Abuse and Security-Issues: postmaster at ya.com
notify:       david.moya at ya.com
notify:       jjr at ya.com
mnt-by:       YACOM-NET-MNT
changed:      jjr at ya.com 20020417
source:       RIPE

role:         Ya.com Operations
address:      Ya.com
address:      Avenida de Europa, 19
address:      Citibank Center, planta 2
address:      Parque Empresarial La Moraleja
address:      28108 Madrid SPAIN
phone:        +34 670 520 658
fax-no:       +34 91 661 8585
e-mail:       plataforma at ya.com
admin-c:      JAA8-RIPE
admin-c:      DMR52-RIPE
admin-c:      JJR2-RIPE
tech-c:       JAA8-RIPE
tech-c:       DMR52-RIPE
tech-c:       JJR2-RIPE
nic-hdl:      YO11-RIPE
notify:       jarribas at ya.com
notify:       david.moya at ya.com
notify:       jjr at ya.com
changed:      jjr at ya.com 20020417
source:       RIPE

person:       Jose Antonio Arribas
address:      Ya.com
address:      Avenida de Europa, 19
address:      Citibank Center, planta 2
address:      Parque Empresarial La Moraleja
address:      28108 Madrid SPAIN
phone:        +34 91 291 7800
phone:        +34 610 453 905
fax-no:       +34 91 661 8585
e-mail:       jarribas at ya.com
nic-hdl:      JAA8-RIPE
notify:       jarribas at ya.com
notify:       apina at ya.com
changed:      apina at ya.com 20000907
source:       RIPE

person:       Arturo Pina
address:      Ya.com
address:      Avenida de Europa, 19
address:      Citibank Center, planta 2
address:      Parque Empresarial La Moraleja
address:      28108 Madrid SPAIN
phone:        +34 91 291 7800
phone:        +34 667 687 135
fax-no:       +34 91 661 8585
e-mail:       apina at ya.com
nic-hdl:      AP9461-RIPE
notify:       apina at ya.com
changed:      apina at ya.com 20000907
source:       RIPE

person:       David Moya Rubio
address:      Ya.com
address:      Avenida de Europa, 19
address:      Citibank Center, planta 2
address:      Parque Empresarial La Moraleja
address:      28108 Madrid SPAIN
phone:        +34 91 291 7800
fax-no:       +34 91 661 8585
e-mail:       david.moya at ya.com
nic-hdl:      DMR52-RIPE
notify:       jarribas at ya.com
changed:      jarribas at ya.com 20010529
source:       RIPE

Should the IP address be blocked, and should the ISPs be informed?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Undeletable file with garbage name

body:
Someone calling himself Asmar uploaded
http://www.wikipedia.com/upload/&%231603;&%231575;&%231587;
&%231575;&%231604;&%231593;&%231575;&%231604;&%231605; 01.jpg and it won't go
away. I tried replacing every "&" with "%26" in the URL and that didn't work.
Anyone know how to do this?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Naming conventions for US States

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikiproject

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from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] hello list; WikiProject

body:
hello all.
I'd like to volunteer for the moving of WikiProject & associated pages
over to Wikipedia: namespace.
before I do, though, could I ask for thoughts on a different name?
I suggest something like "presentation schemes", to stand alongside
"naming conventions"
alternatively, should "naming conventions" be absorbed into
WikiProjects? the original proposal is about naming schemes as well as
consistent content presentation.

Another question: is there a main page of some sort for the Wikipedia:
namespace? Should there be?

tarquin


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Contributions

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body:
On Wednesday 19 June 2002 16:25, Manning Bartlett wrote:
> I did a quick survey of people in my office (all of whom can be regarded as
> quite highly educated), and in each case I managed to find a US State they
> had never heard of or were confused about. By means of comparison, those US
> editors might try and name the 6 states of Australia, or the 9 provinces of
> South Africa, or the I-don't-know-how-many Provinces of Canada (with due
> apologies to my Canadian colleagues). And that is only considering the
> English-speaking world...

Geographic knowledge, from what I've heard (I don't have an office to do a
quick survey of), is *much* worse here in the USA. A friend of mine once told
someone he's from North Dakota, and the other guy answered "Now which of the
Dakotas is it that borders Canada?" And I went to a gathering in western
North Carolina and made a nametag in the shape of North Carolina. Someone
asked me, "Is that a state?"

phma


body:
On Wednesday 19 June 2002 16:46, Derek Ross wrote:
> And on this subject, just what is the most commonly spoken language in
> Georgia?  English?  Russian? Or Georgian?  It all depends on which Georgia
> you mean...

Then there's South Georgia, which isn't in Georgia, even though Georgia is in
the South.

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: WikiProject

body:
On Wednesday 19 June 2002 12:01 pm, tarquin wrote:
> hello all.
> I'd like to volunteer for the moving of WikiProject & associated pages
> over to Wikipedia: namespace.
> before I do, though, could I ask for thoughts on a different name?
> I suggest something like "presentation schemes", to stand alongside
> "naming conventions"

How about simply [[wikipedia:projects]] (or the singular) for the main uber
article and then [[wikipedia:project {name}]] for the specific project? Any
ideas for showing hierarchies? Although this type of question really isn't a
policy one so we should continue this discussion at [[talk:WikiProject]].

> alternatively, should "naming conventions" be absorbed into
> WikiProjects? the original proposal is about naming schemes as well as
> consistent content presentation.

No I don't think this would be desirable. [[Wikipedia:naming conventions]] is
(more or less at least) a policy article and the WikiProject idea has never
been much more than a way for wikipedians to collaborate on a certain set of
related articles (which hasn't been used much BTW). Only part of what is
determined in a WikiProject is what to name articles -- but those names also
should conform to standard(ish) naming conventions.

In other words the WikiProject is really more informal and only enforceable
through bold editing and peer pressure while naming conventions are more or
less part of policy and are enforced in this light.  Of course in a wiki the
line between the two types of enforcement is blurred -- but a distinction
should still be made.

I would like to hear what Manning has to say on this - he is the one who
originally developed the idea (correct me if I am wrong Manning).

maveric149


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Proposed addition to wikipedia: Naming conventions

body:
On Wednesday 19 June 2002 12:01 pm, Lee wrote:
> >?If a name has diacritics, for instance [[Jose Ramos-Horta|Jos?
> >?Ramos-Horta]], avoid the diacritics when naming an article. If a
> >?link has a diacritic, what page it links to depends on the
> >?character set the browser is set to. A UTF-8 browser goes to what
> >?looks to a Latin-1 browser as "Jos&itrema;&iques;&1/2; Ramos-
> >?Horta", whereas a Latin-1 browser goes to an article whose title
> >?has an invalid UTF-8 character.
>
> I think our general consensus is that there should be an article
> titled without diacritics, or otherwise Anglicized ("Goedel",
> for example), and that this article should be a redirect to an
> article with the real title, diacritics and all.

This would work in a perfect world in which the person making the
diacriticaly named article also made an ASCII redirect it, Lee. But
unfortunately this often isn't the case. Even worse is the fact that most
netcitizens don't know how to use their keyboard to make diacritics --
meaning most people searching Google won't use them and that linking directly
to these articles is unnecessarily difficult.

However, I proposed a similar anti-diacritics query on [[talk:naming
conventions]] some time ago but soon began to realize that this is a
technical issue that can be solved by the wikiware gurus. All that is needed is for the software to
treat the diacritic form and the ASCII equivalent the same. For example; ?
and e could be treated as the same character for searches and for linking
(the Google issue might pose a problem though....).  That way when somebody
searches for [[Jos? Ramos-Horta]] by entering in Jose Ramos-Horta in the
wikipedia search engine they won't come up empty handed if nobody made an
ASCII redirect to the diacritic name.

Is this possible? Desirable? Or should we go with the original
anti-diacritics naming convention suggestion?

maveric149


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Contributions

body:
Does listing a user's contributions normally time out, even when bringing up
an article doesn't?

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l]  Proposed addition to wikipedia: Naming conventions

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subject: [Wikitech-l] sysop status for testing test-de

body:
Hi!

 I'd like to have sysop status at test-de.wikipedia.com,
so that I'm able to play around with article renaming and all those
other nice features we have now.

Username: Kurt Jansson

Maybe someone could also give sysop status to Ben-Zin, who is very
active in testing the new software.

When I'm sysop, can I give these rights to the other Wikipedians?

Thanks!

Kurt


from_name: Derek Ross

body:
And on this subject, just what is the most commonly spoken language in
Georgia?  English?  Russian? Or Georgian?  It all depends on which Georgia
you mean...

Cheers

Derek

----- Original Message -----
From: Manning Bartlett
To: wikipedia-l at nupedia.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:25 PM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Naming conventions for US States

Re the recent (and excellent) efforts being made to apply consistency for
naming conventions, I would like to throw a mild spanner in.

How come cities in the USA are identified simply by [[City, State]] and not
[[City, State, USA]]? There would seem to be a presupposition that
*everyone* will recognise US state names.

Admittedly you'd be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't heard of
California. However a lot of people might not have heard of Iowa, Missouri,
New Hampshire, Montana, or Louisiana, or would not know that New York,
Mississippi and Washington are also states, or that New Mexico is actually
in the USA.

I did a quick survey of people in my office (all of whom can be regarded as
quite highly educated), and in each case I managed to find a US State they
had never heard of or were confused about. By means of comparison, those US
editors might try and name the 6 states of Australia, or the 9 provinces of
South Africa, or the I-don't-know-how-many Provinces of Canada (with due
apologies to my Canadian colleagues). And that is only considering the
English-speaking world...

Manning


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Namespaces and naming conventions

body:
First, let me say that I wouldn't like to see a "namespace flood". For
lists, just say "List of ...". We should have a "List of lists", though, as
an "almanach main directory".

These lists all have "real" content, so they should stay in the article
namespace. The WikiProject pages might go to the wikipedia: namespace, as
they are of an organizational type.

The idea behing the log: namespace was to have logs that cannot be edited,
even by sysops, to keep track of their actions. Of course, with the later
addition of direct SQL access, the whole concept became flawed.

For the naming conventions of cities, IMHO the important thing is that the
different articles can be told apart ("Paris, Texas"). That Texas is in the
US can be mentioned within the article. The search function will find it
anyway, and as the "All articles" page is disabled, noone can browse through
the articles by name anyway.

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Contributions

body:
On Wednesday 19 June 2002 19:47, lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
> The way it's implemented in the current code will often time
> out, especially for some of us old-timers, because it always
> fetches _all_ of a user's changes; every edit he's made to
> every version of every article he's ever touched, so it's
> likely to be a big result set.  This is fixed in the new code.

It times out even on people who have made two changes. Can you make an index
on the editor?

phma


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Proposed addition to wikipedia: Naming
    conventions

body:
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