from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] link for complaints

body:
--- David Monniaux <David.Monniaux at ens.fr> wrote:
> I think that all Wikipedia pages should contain somewhere (say, at the
> bottom) a link to a page where people could complain about the content
> of the articles. (I'm talking here of complaints about breach of
> privacy, copyright violation, libel etc.)

Well there is that pesky discussion link at the top of articles, but I agree
that a 'contact us' link is needed in either the sidebar or at the bottom of
every page. Such a link was in the old standard skin, but not in MonoBook.
There is a current MediaWiki feature request for a generic footer message where
links like [[Contact us]], [[Terms of use]], and [[Privacy policy]] could be
put. I think that would be best way to do this.

Here is the link to the en.wikipedia contact us page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us

It would be very useful to have this page linked from every page again through
a footer message.

-- mav

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] link for complaints

body:
Mark Williamson stated for the record:

> I don't think that's the issue here. Surely there are people who would
> be willing to handle these complaints. I myself would spend some time
> on it perhaps.

Well, that's good ol' Shirley and "perhaps" you.  I for one am not going
to assume the legal liability inherent in being the person who answers a
legal complaint in way unsatisfactory to the complainant.

--
  Sean Barrett     | The capo gives part of his plan to one,
  sean at epoptic.com | part to another, the whole to none.


list: wikien-l

from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
>From: BJ?rn Lindqvist <bjourne at gmail.com>

> > Successful arbitration cases have been brought against administrators,
> > some of them resulting in loss of administrator powers.  Usually in such
> > cases there has been consensus amongst other administrators that a
> > particular admin has gone too far.
>
>I think I remember one case in which the ArbCom revoked administrator
>privilegies from an admin. Some admin who had a name consisting of
>tree digits and was not 172. But you are talking in pluralis meaning
>that you have seen more than one instance of this happening.

I've seen it in a number of cases; sometimes the admins lost their powers
temporarly, sometimes permanently, sometimes they had other sanctions not
involving admin powers.

>It would
>very good if you could describe the events so that we can see how far
>an admin actually can go before he or she loses his or hers
>privilegies. Set a precedence, formalize the rules, so that it doesn't
>seem like admins are VIP:s with diplomatic immunity.

Bu the rules *are* formalized, and the precedents *have* been set, and it
doesn't seem like admins are "VIPs with diplomatic immunity" except to a
small number of editors who are typically trolls or cranks.

Jay.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] No redress against personal attack - take the moral high
	road

body:
Dan Grey (Dan100) [mailto:dangrey101 at yahoo.co.uk] wrote:

> I'd like to know what my options are after Ambi called
> me a jerk:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbit
> ration#Everyking_3_deadlock.3F
>
> Now, before I make a fool of myself making an
> inappropiate fuss on the wiki, maybe someone could
> tell me if there are any proper channels of redress
> for this kind of thing, whether or not Ambi is
> 'untouchable' and therefore it's not worth me
> defending myself.

Wikipedia policy does NOT provide users the right of "redress".

Ignore it the first time or so. After that, ask the person POLITELY to
stop calling you names. If they persist, ask others for help, such as a
senior admin.

(Yes, I know: all admins have the same "rank". I mean someone who's been
around a long time and knows everybody, like me or Anthere or
maveric169. Sheesh! Do I have to spell this out?)

If peer pressure from admins fails, you make a request for arbitration.
BUT - note this carefully! - you must leave a "clean audit trail". In
all your dealings with the person who is bothering you, make sure that
you do not retaliate. Ignore this guideline at your own risk!

Any attempt to change others' behavior on this wiki by "doing unto them
what they have done to you" AUTOMATICALLY lowers your chance of
prevailing. This is not junior high school: tit for tat does not apply
here.

Your behavior must be exemplary (like mine ;-) and then everyone is
bound to treat you well.

Why does this work? Well, take me for example. My personal views are
considered "extreme" (even offensive) by many other contributors -
including admins and arbcom members. But I avoid PERSONAL ATTACKS, and
I'm gracious and yielding at all times.

Except when I lose it! And when I'm having a bad day I withdraw, mull
things over and undo or take back what I did or said. Generally with
copious, self-abasing apologies.

And why not? Am I here for the honor and glory of being respected by a
multitude - or did I come here to Help. Build. An encyclopedia. For the
benefit of the world.

Figure out why YOU are here, and act accordingly. (I can coach you, if
requested.)

Uncle Ed [[User:Ed Poor]]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
>From: geni <geniice at gmail.com>
>
>
>172 and Guanaco have both lost their adminship due to arbcom cases. a
>full ist of admins who have lost thier adminship (for a number of
>reasons) may be found at
>[[Wikipedia:List_of_administrators#Former_Administrators]]

In addition, as I said before, other admins have had admin powers
temporarily revoked, or have had other sanctions placed on them.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
>From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
?
>So now we just need to push RickK into becoming more trollish, and he too
>will get sanctions.

Thanks for supporting my contention that the real issue is admins being
abused with near impunity by editors, rather than vice versa.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
>From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
>
>>No.  But what kind of sanctions should he get, and for what reason?
>
>Reason? Harassing new users. Sanctions? Not sure. Can't exactly ban him
>from talking to new users.

And what kind of sanctions would you suggest for user who harrass admins?
For example, what sanctions would be an appropriate response to your
harrassment of RickK?

Jay.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: image dump

body:
Kate Turner wrote:
>
> i was unable to find any documentation on the file format that GNU tar uses

http://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_mono/tar.html#SEC134 ?


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [WikiEN-l] Redress against personal attack?

body:
So can I take it as being OK to call someone a jerk?

Dan100

--- Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/3/05, Dan Grey <dangrey101 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > I'd like to know what my options are after Ambi
> called
> > me a jerk:
> >
> >
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration#Everyking_3_deadlock.3F
> >
> > Now, before I make a fool of myself making an
> > inappropiate fuss on the wiki, maybe someone could
> > tell me if there are any proper channels of
> redress
> > for this kind of thing, whether or not Ambi is
> > 'untouchable' and therefore it's not worth me
> > defending myself.
>
> I think you should take Ambi's advice. Making a fuss
> over her comment
> merely underscores the point she was making.
>
> --
> Peter in Canberra
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


from_name: Kate Turner

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: image dump

references:
<loom.20050601T143210-115@post.gmane.org>	<9f02ca4c0506010841f91e100@mail.gmail.com>	<4436800.qh61orsQCo@rose.local>
	<d7o0f1$9vc$1@sea.gmane.org> <27946090.WKykuDvHA8@rose.local>
	<d7p627$qv$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> Kate Turner wrote:

>> i was unable to find any documentation on the file format that GNU tar
>> uses

> http://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_mono/tar.html#SEC134 ?

this is what i looked at before, but i can't find the relevant part of the
description.  it says:

/* Identifies the *next* file on the tape as having a long name.  */
#define GNUTYPE_LONGNAME 'L'

but does not indicate how the long name should be encoded in the archive
header, unless i'm missing it somewhere...

kate.

(interestingly, the manual says that GNU tar will use pax format by default
in the future, although i suppose that does not solve the immediate
problem ;-)


from_name: Robert Jones

subject: [Wikitech-l] PHP code in a closed wiki

body:
Quick question. Is there any modification to mediawiki that would allow PHP
code to be used on pages? I've tried adding "?php" as a tag, but without
success.

Hope you can help, thanks for the last answer about wantedpages.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
Anthere stated for the record:

>
>
> Sean Barrett a ?crit:
>
>> David Monniaux stated for the record:
>>
>>> I think that all Wikipedia pages should contain somewhere (say, at the
>>> bottom) a link to a page where people could complain about the content
>>> of the articles. (I'm talking here of complaints about breach of
>>> privacy, copyright violation, libel etc.)
>>
>> Thank you for volunteering to handle all these complaints promptly and
>> without pay.
>
> That might not be *exactly* the right time to tell him that, after he
> spent several days on such an issue :-)

Touch?.  My point, on the other hand, remains that having a /official/
complaint channel incurs the liability -- the legal obligation -- to
handle those complaints in a reasonably prompt and effective manner.
The vast majority of those complaints can be properly handled by
replying "go away, kid, you bother me," but occasionally someone will be
seriously offended, and the resulting lawsuit will name the Foundation,
Jimbo Wales, twenty John Does, ... and everyone who responded to the
complaint, even if though they were completely well-meaning.  And since
they were responding to a complaint submitted through an official
channel, their response will be official -- they will be acting as an
agent of the Foundation.

Newbies get bit around here far too often.  Biting a newbie with a
legitimate legal complaint through an officially approved channel is a
recipe for disaster.

--
  Sean Barrett     | We all hate poverty, war, and injustice,
  sean at epoptic.com | unlike the rest of you squares.
                   | --"The Folk Song Army" by Tom Lehrer


from_name: SPUI

subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
JAY JG wrote:
>> From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
>
> ?
>
>> So now we just need to push RickK into becoming more trollish, and he
>> too will get sanctions.
>
> Thanks for supporting my contention that the real issue is admins being
> abused with near impunity by editors, rather than vice versa.

If that's the only way to stop RickK's abuse, why not?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
JAY JG wrote:
>> From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
>>
>>> No.  But what kind of sanctions should he get, and for what reason?
>>
>>
>> Reason? Harassing new users. Sanctions? Not sure. Can't exactly ban
>> him from talking to new users.
>
> And what kind of sanctions would you suggest for user who harrass
> admins?  For example, what sanctions would be an appropriate response to
> your harrassment of RickK?

Nothing. Admins should be held to a higher standard. Those that are
unable to avoid RickK-like behavior should not be admins.


from_name: drmike

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: image dumps now available

body:
Alfio Puglisi wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> On Sun, 29 May 2005, Kate Turner wrote:
>
>>please let me know about any problems with these files, particularly if
>>they don't extract correctly.
>
> Test using
> http://dumps.wikimedia.org/images/wikipedia/fi/20050530_upload.tar
>
> GNU tar on Cygwin extracts all files correctly, except for the last ones
> (outside any subdirectory), where I get lots of "tar: Skipping to next
> header" errors, and a bunch of invalid gif and png files (button_bold.gif,
> button_bold.png and so on).

I'm getting errors as well such as these with the english wiktionary image dump.

For example:

e/e6/Caster.png
pax: Invalid header, starting valid header search.
e/e7/Centranthus_ruber.jpg

And then, as the other poster mentioned:

button_math.gif
pax: Invalid header, starting valid header search.
button_math.png
pax: Invalid header, starting valid header search.
magnify-clip.png

Until it finally asks for the the 2nd volume and finishes with this:

button_italic.png
pax: Invalid header, starting valid header search.
pax: End of archive volume 1 reached
pax: ustar vol 1, 293 files, 15218688 bytes read, 0 bytes written.

ATTENTION! pax archive volume change required.
Ready for archive volume: 2
Input archive name or "." to quit pax.
Archive name > .
Quitting pax!
pax: Premature end of file on archive read

Thanks,
-drmike


from_name: Rebecca

subject:
Shocking behavior towards Willswikihelp (was Re: [WikiEN-l]
	Recent goings-on)

body:
On 6/3/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> You have a good point. I just looked the  Willswikihelp case.  He bit a
> newcomer who wrote a little eulogy to Sonny Bono in the middle of the
> South Lake Tahoe, California article.  That's very bad behavior.  What
> made it even worse was that another editor backed him up.  A touch of
> groupthink there, I think.
>
> I hope RickK will apologise to this guy.  This really didn't look like
> vandalism, just a newcomer making an inappropriate edit.
>
> Then RickK jumps into Isabella Allende and reverts what looks to me like a
> reasonable, if wordy, edit about her children's books.  Cantus jumps in
> and does the same thing.  Very bad behavior.
>
> SchmuckytheCat then goes and lists Chertsey.jpg, which Willswikihelp
> uploaded, on IFD claiming it was "no source, uploaded by vandal" and
> without going to Willswikihelp asking him to complete the licensing
> information on the image.
>
> There's a huge failure to assume good faith here, and I see absolutely no
> reason for it.  The image was in effect trashed without any kind of good
> faith request for licensing information.  That kind of behavior is
> enormously bad for Wikipedia.
>
> I'm shocked.

Then why not practice what you preach, and go talk to RickK? It does
seem like a mistake has been made (although it is worth noting that
Willswikihelp did seem to have some problems with Wikiquette when I
looked, but that didn't make him a vandal), but would it be not be
more appropriate to talk it over and see what happens rather that
running to the mailing list calling for blood? I'm getting awfully
tired of this small group that believes a non-admin deserves a
thousand chances and neverending good faith in the faith of
overwhelming evidence to the contrary, whereas if an admin slips up,
they deserve to be hung, drawn and quartered.

-- ambi


body:
Alfio Puglisi wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> On Sun, 29 May 2005, Kate Turner wrote:
>
>>please let me know about any problems with these files, particularly if
>>they don't extract correctly.
>
> Test using
> http://dumps.wikimedia.org/images/wikipedia/fi/20050530_upload.tar
>
> GNU tar on Cygwin extracts all files correctly, except for the last ones
> (outside any subdirectory), where I get lots of "tar: Skipping to next
> header" errors, and a bunch of invalid gif and png files (button_bold.gif,
> button_bold.png and so on).

thanks.

these files are symlinks in the image directory.  there seems to be a bug
where symlinks are not handled correctly when creating the tar file.
nonetheless, since the desired behaviour is that they are not included at
all, this shouldn't be an issue (assuming the rest of the files are
extracted okay).  i'll try to fix this for the next dump.

> pax doesn't seem to be available for Cygwin. I found with surprise that
> there's one included with windows, but it doesn't work:
>
> pax: - : This doesn't look like a tar archive
> pax: - : Skipping to next file...

it's possible this pax doesn't understand the newer POSIX format.  do you
know where it comes from?

> only the first 832 files are extracted, out of 3000.

> Alfio

kate.


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Dan Grey said:
> So can I take it as being OK to call someone a jerk?

No.  It's not okay to act like one either.  That applies to both of you.


body:
>From: Dan Grey <dangrey101 at yahoo.co.uk>
>
>I'd like to know what my options are after Ambi called
>me a jerk:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration#Everyking_3_deadlock.3F
>
>Now, before I make a fool of myself making an
>inappropiate fuss on the wiki, maybe someone could
>tell me if there are any proper channels of redress
>for this kind of thing, whether or not Ambi is
>'untouchable' and therefore it's not worth me
>defending myself.

In my experience, it usually takes consistent application of far worse
labels in order to make an Arbitration Committee case, and that applies to
everyone, not just Ambi.  That said, your implication that admins are held
to a different standard of conduct is true, but the standard they are held
to is actually much higher than that of the typical editor.

Jay.


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] IEEE LOM

body:
Hoi,
The IEEE LOM is a standard for providing Meta-data to the educational
system. It is an open standard and it is being implemented in several
countries. Technically the standard exists into two parts. the technical
labels and its localisations and localised vs universal content.

There was a Dutch organisation that asked in OTRS to host the Dutch
Wikipedia so that it would be able to combine the Wikipedia content with
the IEEE LOM data. In principle there is nothing wrong with that.
However if 50% of the Dutch data is of an universal nature, it would
mean that this 50% does not need to be entered for the articles in other
languages. Hosting this metadata on the Wikimedia servers makes sense;
it allows for the opening up of Free content in a proprietary world. It
would make a huge deduction in cost for every second language
implementing the IEEE LOM data.

The questions I put to you are:
*   Are we willing to host open standard meta data for the educational
world.
*   Are we willing to cooperate with organisations that are interested
in implementing this data.
*   How will we manage such things; funds can be found to pay people
doing this kind of work - can we consider this

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Problem user

body:
User:Scandum has become increasingly a thorn in my side. He is
obviously some sort of neo-eugenicist and he spends all of his time on
here causing problems on eugenics related articles. Put basically, he
questions basic historical facts (such as that the Nazis used eugenic
rhetoric to justify their racial policies) and tries to edit them out
of articles. When he is advised to look at the many dozens of
references given in the article -- all to scholarly works, all
available on Amazon.com, all available at a standard library -- he
claims he has never read  them and cannot get access to them. He does
not cite anything to justify his own opinions, and apparently has
never read anything on the topic. If you do give him a web source, he
disregards it as a "random source" or simply disagrees with it.

He hasn't broken any rules, but he's wasting a lot of time. The POV he
is pushing is completely uninformed about the articles he is trying to
push it into, he seems to purposely not understand direct responses to
his queries, he repeats the same old schtick no matter how carefully
the other editors attempt to reason with him and show him their
sources. Those who disagree with him he labels "bullies".

It is clear to me, anyway, that he knows nothing reliable about the
topic and is just a crank. The changes he wants to institute are ones
which anybody with even a mild education in the subject matter knows
are at worst untrue and at best historically and logically incoherent.
As an example, he filed a POV warning because he wanted a line change
from saying that part of what put eugenics into disrepute was a
reaction to the Nazi eugenic programs, to saying that what put
eugenics into disrepute was the UN Human Rights Declaration. The
latter doesn't specifically mention eugenics but even then it was
*caused* by a reaction to the Nazis. He doesn't seem to understand the
difference, it is clear he just wants to remove any reference to the
Nazis.

I'm getting pretty fed up, after three weeks it is clear that
reasoning with him isn't going to get anywhere, and he is really
wasting a lot of my time and the time of others on here. Anybody have
any advice? If anybody wanted to read the small novel of talk at
[[Eugenics]], I'd appreciate any specific insight as well. I'm trying
to be civil -- failing at times -- but I get pretty annoyed when some
crank pushing what I consider to be a pretty ugly and revisionist POV
(into an article which has been carefully written so as to minimize
its own judgments and POV -- it doesn't say "eugenics is a Nazi
philosophy" as it easily could, it is about perceptions and rhetoric)
cuts back on time which I could be spending writing or editing better
articles because I have to explain things to him that he would have
known if he had done any actual reading in the subject. (And mind you,
I don't mind explaining things -- I do mind when I am sure that my
efforts are wasted because my explanations will not be read)

Hopefully this doesn't come off as too elitist, anti-user, whatever. I
think if you look at his contribs list though you can see his agenda
pretty well, and I try to assume good faith with people for at least
the first week of their work. You can see, if you look, that I've
tried to rewrite various things in the article to be more clear and
precise, and have for the most part tried to take everything he said
at least seriously enough to give it a real response (up to the point
of repetition). Again, he hasn't broken any rules, I don't see any
real grounds for mediation, I'm just getting very frustrated, and
justifiably so, I think.

FF


subject: [Wikitech-l] IEEE LOM

body:
Hoi,

The IEEE LOM is a standard for providing Meta-data to the educational system. It is an open standard and it is being implemented in several
countries. Technically the standard exists into two parts. the technical labels and its localisations and localised vs universal content.

There was a Dutch organisation that asked in OTRS to host the Dutch Wikipedia so that it would be able to combine the Wikipedia content with
the IEEE LOM data. In principle there is nothing wrong with that. However if 50% of the Dutch data is of an universal nature, it would
 mean that this 50% does not need to be entered for the articles in other languages. Hosting this metadata on the Wikimedia servers makes sense;
it allows for the opening up of Free content in a proprietary world. It would make a huge deduction in cost for every second language implementing the IEEE LOM data.

The questions I put to you are:
*   Are we willing to host open standard meta data for the educational world.
*   Are we willing to cooperate with organisations that are interested in implementing this data.
*   How will we manage such things; funds can be found to pay people doing this kind of work - can we consider this

Thanks,
   GerardM


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
>From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
>
>JAY JG wrote:
>>>From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
>>
>>?
>>
>>>So now we just need to push RickK into becoming more trollish, and he too
>>>will get sanctions.
>>
>>Thanks for supporting my contention that the real issue is admins being
>>abused with near impunity by editors, rather than vice versa.
>
>If that's the only way to stop RickK's abuse, why not?

It appears that the abuse is mostly coming from you, so if I were you I'd be
cautious about starting a campaign to get tough with abusers.

Jay.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
>From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
>
>JAY JG wrote:
>>>From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>>No.  But what kind of sanctions should he get, and for what reason?
>>>
>>>
>>>Reason? Harassing new users. Sanctions? Not sure. Can't exactly ban him
>>>from talking to new users.
>>
>>And what kind of sanctions would you suggest for user who harrass admins?
>>For example, what sanctions would be an appropriate response to your
>>harrassment of RickK?
>
>Nothing. Admins should be held to a higher standard.

They are, but certainly no users should be allowed to harrass others; this
isn't Viligantipedia.

>Those that are unable to avoid RickK-like behavior should not be admins.

And those that are unable to avoid SPUI-like behaviour?  Perhaps they should
not be posting to this mailing list, as a start.

Jay.


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Response from vipuser.

body:
(English explanation follows)
" ??????????????wikimedia
commons????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

--vipuser(talk) 17:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

??wikimeidia commons?????????????????????????????????????????????????????)--vipuser
(talk) 17:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????--vipuser
(talk) 17:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)"

For those non-Chinese speakers among us, with this vipuser has
informed me that there are plans to implement SC<>TC conversion on
extra-zh: projects (ie, Meta, Commons, Foundation-l), in conjunction
with developers.

This is, for the reasons I've already given, unsatisfactory for these wikis.

So far as I can tell, the only people who have been in direct
cooperation in this task are Simplified users.

I think that it is high time that the Wikimedia Foundation took a
logical look at the situation and realised that for any activity,
users of BOTH SCRIPTS need to be involved.

For example, for advice on the sc/tc issue originally (with the zh-tw:
crisis), the Foundation consulted (unofficially I believe) an
unnamed-but-supposedly-prominent journalist.

Of course, a journalist must have qualification to deal with grammar,
writing, etc, at least to a certain capacity because it's part of
their job.

But... what was the journalist's script background? A primary user of
Simplified, from the Mainland.

Also, prior to the implementation of script conversion on zhwiki, the
Foundation used the fact that most opinions expressed on the ml were
that there should be a single Wiki for both varieties as justification
for keeping the two unified.

But let's take a look at the demographics involved. All those who
expressed opinions clearly in favour of unification were users
primarily of Simplified with, I believe, the exception of Andrew Lih.
Those who expressed opinions which were not very clear one way or the
other were users primarily of Traditional, as far as I know, but there
were only a couple of opinions expressed by Traditional users so it
wasn't a very representative sample anyhow.

Similarly, on the issue of the Cantonese Wikipedia, the Foundation
consulted (again unofficially) a China expert at a prestigious East
Asian studies institution.

But, was this person fluent in Cantonese, from a Cantonese area, or
specialising in regional (read: "dialectology" -> fangyanxue) issues?

So far as I can tell, no.

If you want to know about the issue of Taiwan independence, would you
consult a source from the Mainland or one from Taiwan? Or would you
use both in conjunction and use your own judgement to sort out what
was most true?

If you wanted to know whether your firm should have separate product
localisations for Brazil and Portugal, would you ask a non-expert from
one country or rather bring in one person from each country?

In the future, if the Foundation is going to consult anybody in any
capacity, I would appreciate it if they would first consider a
person's qualifications and if they can be reasonably expected to see
the issue from both sides, and in those cases where they cannot, at
least two separate people should probably be consulted in conjunction.

Best
Mark Williamson

On 02/06/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have received a response from VIPUser which I reproduce in full here:
>
> "about sc and tc
>
> please stop clean the translation! the reason:
> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!
> if you can't understand the content, you can do the clean job after
> you learn some chinese! thank you very much for your attention to the
> chinese version wikimedia commons!"
>
> What the Chinese part says is that basically asking if I understand
> Wikipedia's policy towards Simplfied and Traditional Chinese, if I
> want to know more I can check Chinese Wikipedia, that for temporary
> purposes it's OK to use both but in the long term conversion... not
> duplicate content... improve effectiveness... reduce workload... etc.
>
> As a user of primarily Traditional Chinese, I can tell you that,
> although it is manageable, the conversion software is certainly '''not
> perfect''''  and that for official press releases, sites like commons,
> and the like, it's best to have two separate versions.
>
> One simple example is that the Simplified Mainpage on Commons uses
> Roman numerals for dates and times; the Traditional uses Chinese
> numerals. In other cases, there are special conversions which need to
> take place concerning legal terms, computer terms, and all sorts of
> other things which are not currently covered by the conversion
> software.
>
> If you go through zh.wikipedia, you'll quickly   find that much text
> is either converted incorrectly or sometimes left entirely
> unconverted.
>
> I don't complain about it because it's still readable although it's
> somewhat poor quality.
>
> But in these cases, it's more important that people be able to read
> content written in a correct manner.
>
> Also keep in mihd that the situation is still basically a majority of
> Simplified users who, from their point of view, are accommodating for
> a minority to whom they can't relate - while most Simplified users
> know Traditional pretty well and don't mind much reading content in it
> occasionally, Simplified characters are very difficult and grating on
> the eyes and mind of most people for whom Traditional is their first
> script: Traditional is occasionally used on the Mainland because it is
> used in historical documents, calligraphy (theoretically -
> calligraphic forms are often more similar to the Simplified form),
> sometimes as titles of books, and to make something seem a little
> fancy. However, in Taiwan you will never see Simplified with few
> exceptions. In Hong Kong, it used to be similar to Taiwan. Simplified
> is becoming more common in Hong Kong and Macao, but still the
> situation is not the same as the reverse on the mainland because its
> use is still very rare in HK and Macao. In Singapore, although
> Simplified is used officially, people actually use both (the same is
> true in Malaysia).
>
> So while a Simplified user might not mind a page written in Simplified
> but with some words or phrases in Traditional, the reverse is very
> annoying and visually displeasing to a Traditional user.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Kate Turner wrote:

>Alfio Puglisi wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:
>
>> pax doesn't seem to be available for Cygwin. I found with surprise that
>> there's one included with windows, but it doesn't work:
>>
>> pax: - : This doesn't look like a tar archive
>> pax: - : Skipping to next file...
>
>it's possible this pax doesn't understand the newer POSIX format.  do you
>know where it comes from?

Who knows, it's included in the windows directory (windows 2000 SP4). The
help file says:

"The following formats are supported.

cpio  - The extended CPIO interchange format specified in Extended CPIO
Format in IEEE Std. 1003.1-1988.
ustar - The extended TAR interchange format specified in Extended TAR
Format in IEEE Std. 1003.1-1988. This is the default archive format."

Both of them seem quite old :-)

Alfio


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Harrasment by an admin - examples?

body:
On 6/3/05, Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- "michaelturley at myway.com"
> <michaelturley at myway.com> wrote:
> > Now that we are corresponding, I want to know; is it
> > your position that ANY suggestion to VfD nominators
> > that they do cursory research before nomination is a
> > "personal attack"?
> >
> > Michael Turley
> > User:Unfocused
>
> As I have said repeatedly, all you have to do is to
> indicate that your own Google search revealed notable
> links.  Attacking other people's motives is not on.
>
> RickK

Or that you can provide the ISBN number and author name of an existing
book as a source of its importance.
--Mgm


body:
Yep, I agree with Mindspillage. Apologize to each other and patch
things up. One personal attack, while bad, isn't enough to call for
sanctions on either of you. Discussing it with each other is much more
productive.

-Mgm

On 6/3/05, Kat Walsh <mindspillage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/3/05, Dan Grey <dangrey101 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > So can I take it as being OK to call someone a jerk?
>
> No. But you can follow the advice given to you, quite sanely, on that
> very same page, and calmly take it up with Ambi herself if you're
> still smarting over it.
>
> You shouldn't have insulted her (and the rest of the committee). She
> shouldn't have called you a jerk. You are equally to blame. I don't
> know what sort of action you want anyone to take here; I don't believe
> any official outside action is called for. All involved parties should
> cool off, apologize for the intemperate words, and deal with the
> issues that underlie your barbs rather than the namecalling.
>
> -Kat
> [[User:Mindspillage]]
>
> > --- Skyring <skyring at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 6/3/05, Dan Grey <dangrey101 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > I'd like to know what my options are after Ambi
> > > called
> > > > me a jerk:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration#Everyking_3_deadlock.3F
> > > >
> > > > Now, before I make a fool of myself making an
> > > > inappropiate fuss on the wiki, maybe someone could
> > > > tell me if there are any proper channels of
> > > redress
> > > > for this kind of thing, whether or not Ambi is
> > > > 'untouchable' and therefore it's not worth me
> > > > defending myself.
> > >
> > > I think you should take Ambi's advice. Making a fuss
> > > over her comment
> > > merely underscores the point she was making.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter in Canberra
>
> --
> "There was a point to this story, but it has temporarily
> escaped the chronicler's mind."  --Douglas Adams
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Problem user

body:
Well, yes, I suppose I can do that. I suppose I was also just looking
for anybody else's input on this before I go ahead with something like
that -- making sure I am doing the right thing on this. Again, he's
not doing anything flagrantly out of bounds but he is becoming quite a
pest.

FF

On 6/3/05, Viajero <viajero at quilombo.nl> wrote:
> Open an RfC on this user. List some examples of "POV pushing". If
> Scandum is not citing sources for his additions and/or is ignoring
> sources supplied by other users, then he IS breaking rules. Keep in mind
> that an RfC on an individual should focus on personal behaviour and not
> content issues.
>
> Some users respond positively to being the subject of an RfC; others
> don't. If Scandum doesn't, you may have a good case to bring before the
> ArbCom.
>
> HTH
>
> V.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] request for 2 mailing lists

body:
I would like to have 2 mailing lists set up, can someone do this for me?

One: wiki-research-l, "A low volume list for people who are actively
engaged in research on the Wikipedia project" -- this list should be
moderated with me as the moderator for now.  It should be open for
anyone to subscribe to.  I will find a proper moderator soon.

Two: wiki-offline-reader-l "A list for the co-ordination of work on a
free offline MediaWiki reader" -- there are several people who have
contacted me recently about doing a project like this and I feel that a
separate mailing list to focus on this will be helpful.

I am open to suggestions or commands :-) regarding the names, focus,
etc. of these lists, but I'd like to get them started fairly quickly
because I have business cards of lots of people who want me to do this.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
In that case, my "perhaps" is hereby changed to a "Sorry, I can't do
it" because there are issues of liability concerning minors.

Also, in case you were thinking of asking, there is no such thing as
emancipated minor status in the State of Arizona: all minors must have
legal guardians here (though this is not the case in other states).

Mark

On 03/06/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> Anthere stated for the record:
>
> >
> >
> > Sean Barrett a ?crit:
> >
> >> David Monniaux stated for the record:
> >>
> >>> I think that all Wikipedia pages should contain somewhere (say, at the
> >>> bottom) a link to a page where people could complain about the content
> >>> of the articles. (I'm talking here of complaints about breach of
> >>> privacy, copyright violation, libel etc.)
> >>
> >> Thank you for volunteering to handle all these complaints promptly and
> >> without pay.
> >
> > That might not be *exactly* the right time to tell him that, after he
> > spent several days on such an issue :-)
>
> Touch?.  My point, on the other hand, remains that having a /official/
> complaint channel incurs the liability -- the legal obligation -- to
> handle those complaints in a reasonably prompt and effective manner.
> The vast majority of those complaints can be properly handled by
> replying "go away, kid, you bother me," but occasionally someone will be
> seriously offended, and the resulting lawsuit will name the Foundation,
> Jimbo Wales, twenty John Does, ... and everyone who responded to the
> complaint, even if though they were completely well-meaning.  And since
> they were responding to a complaint submitted through an official
> channel, their response will be official -- they will be acting as an
> agent of the Foundation.
>
> Newbies get bit around here far too often.  Biting a newbie with a
> legitimate legal complaint through an officially approved channel is a
> recipe for disaster.
>
> --
>   Sean Barrett     | We all hate poverty, war, and injustice,
>   sean at epoptic.com | unlike the rest of you squares.
>                    | --"The Folk Song Army" by Tom Lehrer
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: The Cunctator

subject:
[WikiEN-l] No redress against personal attack - take the
	moral high road

body:
On 6/3/05 9:50 AM, "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> Your behavior must be exemplary (like mine ;-) and then everyone is
> bound to treat you well.
>
> Why does this work? Well, take me for example. My personal views are
> considered "extreme" (even offensive) by many other contributors -
> including admins and arbcom members. But I avoid PERSONAL ATTACKS, and
> I'm gracious and yielding at all times.
>
> Except when I lose it! And when I'm having a bad day I withdraw, mull
> things over and undo or take back what I did or said. Generally with
> copious, self-abasing apologies.

Exactly. Ed's always gracious and polite, except when he's a total nitwit
and obtuse blowhard.

Just like me.

I've been called a lot worse than "jerk" by others here at Wikipedia, and I
haven't called for "personal redress". I do try to understand why people get
upset with me, and act accordingly, but I also recognize that that Wikipedia
is not the center of my social universe and a little intemperateness is not
a big deal.

By the way, I think that there are lots of people who can be jerks here at
Wikipedia. But it doesn't mean they can't also be humble and helpful.

Remember the virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris.


from_name: Tim Starling

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Email authentication on Wikimedia wikis + Single
	user sign-on

body:
Thomas Gries wrote:
> Perhaps it would be clever to delay the work towards release 1.5 and to
> concentrate on this long-wanted SUL ?
> T.

Lots of things are long-wanted. 1.5 needs to go live ASAP for
performance reasons. Anyway, the code for SUL was written and released
in 1.4, the only thing missing is a conversion script and a sysadmin
brave enough to apply it. So there's no need to tie it to the release
cycle. The email authentication problem can be solved in some other way,
such as marking all existing email addresses authenticated.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Richard Rabinowitz

subject: [WikiEN-l] Name sounds familiar

body:
>Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:54:31 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
>--- SPUI <drspui at gmail.com> wrote:
> What the fuck are you smoking?

>Knock off the attacks on the mailing list.  I'd like
>to mention that SPUI is also a member of the GNAA.

>RickK

SPUI's involved in this? and what's the GNAA?

Rickyrab


from_name: David Friedland

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Feature addition to the gallery

references:
<429BA6C3.50609@wildgooses.com>
	<429BB0E1.9010100@pobox.com>	<429C54EE.4080108@wildgooses.com>
	<d7je6b$d7q$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Just so everyone knows, Brion made some modifications to the patch to
make it exhibit the desired behavior, as well as to use some utility
functions from the Sanitizer package, and checked it into HEAD last night.

Bug message from Brion:
<http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=684#c18>

Diff of Parser.php from CVS:
<http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia/phase3/includes/Parser.php?r1=1.446&r2=1.447>

Thanks Brion!

- David

David Friedland wrote:
> Ed W wrote:
>
>> Do you mean this bug:
>> http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=684
>>
>> What's wrong with the code as is?  Looks great to me?
>>
>> Please advise what's wrong and I will fix it up - seems great for my
>> purpose
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ed W
>
>
> I wrote this patch. I stopped working on it after a cold reception--my
> contributions weren't met with much enthusiasm so I stopped pursuing
> trying to make them.
>
> Brion wants it changed to not allow \' and \" as escapes for ' and "
> inside quoted strings and to not allow whitespace between the opening <
> and the name of the tag.
>
> Also, ?var notes that the patch doesn't work on the current HEAD, as the
> code the patch applies to has probably changed since the patch was
> written, so it needs some cleaning up.
>
> Hope that helps. Good luck.
>
> - David Friedland


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Problem user

body:
This sounds like a move that will go to arbitration. I suggest you
move it along. Speak to Scandum about changing sure enough, but move
it along and we can get it over with if he is determined to keep on
with the stuff you describe. For example, ask him if he will use
inter-library loan to check references before he deletes them.

Fred

On Jun 3, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Fastfission wrote:

> User:Scandum has become increasingly a thorn in my side. He is
> obviously some sort of neo-eugenicist and he spends all of his time on
> here causing problems on eugenics related articles. Put basically, he
> questions basic historical facts (such as that the Nazis used eugenic
> rhetoric to justify their racial policies) and tries to edit them out
> of articles. When he is advised to look at the many dozens of
> references given in the article -- all to scholarly works, all
> available on Amazon.com, all available at a standard library -- he
> claims he has never read  them and cannot get access to them. He does
> not cite anything to justify his own opinions, and apparently has
> never read anything on the topic. If you do give him a web source, he
> disregards it as a "random source" or simply disagrees with it.
>
> He hasn't broken any rules, but he's wasting a lot of time. The POV he
> is pushing is completely uninformed about the articles he is trying to
> push it into, he seems to purposely not understand direct responses to
> his queries, he repeats the same old schtick no matter how carefully
> the other editors attempt to reason with him and show him their
> sources. Those who disagree with him he labels "bullies".
>
> It is clear to me, anyway, that he knows nothing reliable about the
> topic and is just a crank. The changes he wants to institute are ones
> which anybody with even a mild education in the subject matter knows
> are at worst untrue and at best historically and logically incoherent.
> As an example, he filed a POV warning because he wanted a line change
> from saying that part of what put eugenics into disrepute was a
> reaction to the Nazi eugenic programs, to saying that what put
> eugenics into disrepute was the UN Human Rights Declaration. The
> latter doesn't specifically mention eugenics but even then it was
> *caused* by a reaction to the Nazis. He doesn't seem to understand the
> difference, it is clear he just wants to remove any reference to the
> Nazis.
>
> I'm getting pretty fed up, after three weeks it is clear that
> reasoning with him isn't going to get anywhere, and he is really
> wasting a lot of my time and the time of others on here. Anybody have
> any advice? If anybody wanted to read the small novel of talk at
> [[Eugenics]], I'd appreciate any specific insight as well. I'm trying
> to be civil -- failing at times -- but I get pretty annoyed when some
> crank pushing what I consider to be a pretty ugly and revisionist POV
> (into an article which has been carefully written so as to minimize
> its own judgments and POV -- it doesn't say "eugenics is a Nazi
> philosophy" as it easily could, it is about perceptions and rhetoric)
> cuts back on time which I could be spending writing or editing better
> articles because I have to explain things to him that he would have
> known if he had done any actual reading in the subject. (And mind you,
> I don't mind explaining things -- I do mind when I am sure that my
> efforts are wasted because my explanations will not be read)
>
> Hopefully this doesn't come off as too elitist, anti-user, whatever. I
> think if you look at his contribs list though you can see his agenda
> pretty well, and I try to assume good faith with people for at least
> the first week of their work. You can see, if you look, that I've
> tried to rewrite various things in the article to be more clear and
> precise, and have for the most part tried to take everything he said
> at least seriously enough to give it a real response (up to the point
> of repetition). Again, he hasn't broken any rules, I don't see any
> real grounds for mediation, I'm just getting very frustrated, and
> justifiably so, I think.
>
> FF
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] PHP code in a closed wiki

body:
On 03/06/05, Robert Jones <bob at jones-cliffe.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Quick question. Is there any modification to mediawiki that would allow PHP
> code to be used on pages? I've tried adding "?php" as a tag, but without
> success.

No, but you might want to look at the "extension" mechanism, that lets
you execute pre-defined (parameterised) code to put things in the
middle of pages (basically like how the <math>...</math> stuff works).
And of course, if you're 100% sure no-one could exploit it (don't rely
on MediaWiki's own restrictions for this, it's not built to be secure)
you could make a function to eval() or whatever the content you put
between <php>and</php> - although it's probably better to determine in
advance what it is you want the extension to do and keep it specific.

See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Write_your_own_MediaWiki_extension

Depending what you want to do, you could also make your own "special
page", which is a dynamic page with no existence in the database, that
just runs PHP to generate its content - useful because it's not
cached, unlike everything else.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Recent goings-on

body:
SPUI said:
> JAY JG wrote:
>>> From: SPUI <drspui at gmail.com>
>>
>> ?
>>
>>> So now we just need to push RickK into becoming more trollish, and he
>>>  too will get sanctions.
>>
>> Thanks for supporting my contention that the real issue is admins
>> being  abused with near impunity by editors, rather than vice versa.
>
> If that's the only way to stop RickK's abuse, why not?

Surely you don't need to be told the answer to that rhetorical question.


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject:
[[Help]] sidebar link to [[Help / Contact us]] (was Re: [Wikipedia-l]
	link for complaints)

body:
Cross posted to WikiEn-l since I plan to tweak en.wiki's interface a tiny bit.
--- David Monniaux <David.Monniaux at ens.fr> wrote:
> Personally, I think that having clear complaint links reduces our risk
> of getting sued or at least of getting served legal summons by angry and
> frustrated people.

I would not call it a 'complaint link' since I (and I imagine many others)
don't want to encourage complaints, per se. We can, however, largely fix the
apparent-lack-of-feedback-mechanism issue *right now* by editing
[[MediaWiki:Help]] to read 'Help / Contact us' instead of just 'Help'. I've
already made some small changes the the English Wikipedia's [[help:Contents]]
page to make this hack work (ideally 'Help' and 'Contact us' would each link to
their own pages, but that is not possible).

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Contents and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Help (where I've already said I
will do this in two days).

That should tide us over until/if we get the generic footer message MediaWiki
page I was talking about in my last email (where multiple links and/or messages
could be displayed - not unlike [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]], except most of the
links would be there all the time).

-- mav

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] people biographies pulled in via RSS

body:
On 02/06/05, QuotationsBook.com Webmaster/Support

> Does Wikipedia have customised syndication of its content?

* Well, in terms of literal feeds, there are a few things listed at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:XML_feeds
* There are also a handful of bugs open requesting new feeds -
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?bug_id=471%2C472%2C943
* Article content can also be exported wrapped in a custom slice of
XML using the [[Special:Export]] page - see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Export_and_import
* And finally, of course, there are the database dumps for setting up
your own mirror and mucking about with it, at
http://download.wikimedia.org

Hope something here goes at least some way to answering your query.
Happy Hacking.
--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The best I can suggest is to write a good piece to put in [[about
> wikipedia]] (just as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AAbout)
> with a good and lenghty explanation  of the various circonstances which
> can be met,
>
> * the article talk page (with reminder that any article can be edited
> and basic explanations on how to do so)
> * the pump for more general contact
> * wikifr-l for comment to french editors
> * wikimediafr-l for comment to the association only (explain the difference)
> * ca address (for private mails)
> * board address etc....

Such a page already exists on the English Wikipedia at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us but since it it not linked
prominently, few people who would find such a page useful know about it.

-- mav

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/


from_name: David Monniaux

subject: [Wikipedia-l] link for complaints

body:
I think that all Wikipedia pages should contain somewhere (say, at the
bottom) a link to a page where people could complain about the content
of the articles. (I'm talking here of complaints about breach of
privacy, copyright violation, libel etc.)

Currently, people have nowhere clear to go to. We get messages on the
Village Pump or equivalent, by private email to participants (often
unrelated to the articles), by emails to the Foundation board, by email
to public mailing lists.

This, to me, is deeply unsatisfactory:
* By providing no obvious way for people to complain about articles, we
give the impression of some unreliable, irresponsible group.
* While people look for a way to contact us, they become frustrated. As
a result, their complaint may become unnecessarily accusatory and angry.
* We also incite people to make legal threats to get some attention.
* When people write to public lists, they attract undue attention to
issues that should be better dealt with in the calm - some inflammatory
email with legal threats will result in some angry answers, and all can
escalate.
* If people have a really legitimate problem, they have little recourse.

You will say, hey, they can simply edit the wiki. This simply does not
work. Many people don't understand the editing process and simply can't
do it. Furthermore, some well-meaning contributors may see their awkward
efforts as "vandalism" and revert them. This gives people the impression
that their edits are refused or that some "censorship" is implemented.

This is not imaginary. I'll spare you the details, but within one week
the French association mailing-list received legal threats from two
sources, both alleging bad treatment from Wikipedia. In both cases, the
legal claims are dubious; but they can be an annoyance and would be
better dealt with in a friendly agreement than if lawyers get involved.

Somebody remarked to me that we could, as many professional sites have,
have a complaint page. The user would first have to answer some
multiple-choice questions, meant for weeding out "non urgent" complaints
(i.e. things such as "the birth date of XXX is incorrect"); or, these
complaints could be sent to the talk page. Finally, if the reason seems
to fit a legitimate "sensitive" category, they would have a form open
for typing their message or would obtain some link to a complaint email
address.

I think that as we become one of the foremost Internet sites, we will
have more of the sort. We should have means so that simple problems
don't escalate into full blown confrontations. Remember that even if we
win, that's still a lot of frustration and lost time.


from_name: elwp at gmx.de

subject: [Wikitech-l] new history compression class

body:
The new history compression class is finished now. I have
entered it in Bugzilla (ID 2310). The average compression is
about 5 times better than that of the currently used class.
Access to individual revisions is generally faster (factor
2 or so). Only if all revisions in a history blob are
read (e.g. when a page is exported), my class is slower,
especially when it has a large number of sections. But this
doesn't yet account for the time needed to load the
history blobs. I've tested the new class with
[[de:Wikipedia:L?schkandidaten/5. Februar 2005]] which is a
typical large discussion page with more than 50 headings.
Consecutive access to all revisions takes about 0.5 seconds
with ConcatenatedGzipHistoryBlobs and 1.4 seconds with
SplitMergeGzipHistoryBlobs. On the other hand 58
ConcatenatedGzipHistoryBlobs are needed with a total length
of 5937kB whereas 21 SplitMergeGzipHistoryBlobs with a total
length of 508kB can hold the same text. Maybe the time
difference for loading the blobs fully compensates for
the slower read access. What do you think?

--
Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail gratis + 3 Ausgaben stern gratis
++ Jetzt anmelden & testen ++ http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail ++


from_name: Jeremy Dunck

body:
On 6/3/05, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> > One: wiki-research-l, "A low volume list for people who are actively
> > engaged in research on the Wikipedia project"
...
> I
> don't want to see an artificial split between research on MediaWiki and
> MediaWiki development. Stuff like HistoryFlow also should be discussed on
> wikitech-l, in my opinion.

Really?  I'm interested because I'm starting a research project this
summer, and HistoryFlow is one of my starting points.  Why is that
more tech-l-y than research-l?

Also, is there a page for all known prior research?  Seems like there
should be, and knowing prior art would help folks starting anew with
inspiration and direction.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] link for complaints

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>Well there is that pesky discussion link at the top of articles,
>
This link
* requires the user to know how to edit the wiki
* provides no obvious method for feedback to the user (who would have to
find his way back to the talk page)
* does not provide for discretion.
In the case of a breach of privacy, etc., users don't necessarily want
to discuss their concerns in public.

As for the (smart-aleck, if I may say so) remark on having to read those
complaints: currently, the Foundation receives the complaints *once
users have found a way to contact it*. Users such as Sannse etc. have to
read it. Sometimes, mails go to random users. Sometimes, they go to
public mailing-lists and they attract controversy.

Personally, I think that having clear complaint links reduces our risk
of getting sued or at least of getting served legal summons by angry and
frustrated people.


from_name: Dan Grey

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Redress against personal attack?

body:
Thank you all for answering my questions, and for your
advice, particulary Ed Poor.

I have apologized to Ambi for my original comments.
They were not *meant* to be a personal attack,
however, if that is how they have been read, then that
is what they are, and so an apology is in order.

I have also simply expressed my disappointment with
Ambi's comments, and want to leave it there. I just
expected more of an arbitrator.

So that is that :-)

Dan100

--- Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> Kat Walsh a ?crit:
> All involved parties should
> > cool off, apologize for the intemperate words, and
> deal with the
> > issues that underlie your barbs rather than the
> namecalling.
> >
> > -Kat
> > [[User:Mindspillage]]
>
> Nod. Exactly.
>
> It is unfortunately real that some of us (me
> included sometimes) resort
> to using bad words to call others when the pressure
> is too high.
> But that happens. Best is to give it a few hours,
> feel the regret build
> up, apology and try to put the whole thing aside.
> Not always easy. But
> the best.
>
> I would even go as far as saying that after a
> while... you get to
> realise some people just blow up this way from time
> to time. Then, you
> somehow get used to it. But generally, abusive use
> of insults get
> oneself bad reputation.
>
> ant
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Skyring

body:
On 6/3/05, Dan Grey <dangrey101 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I'd like to know what my options are after Ambi called
> me a jerk:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration#Everyking_3_deadlock.3F
>
> Now, before I make a fool of myself making an
> inappropiate fuss on the wiki, maybe someone could
> tell me if there are any proper channels of redress
> for this kind of thing, whether or not Ambi is
> 'untouchable' and therefore it's not worth me
> defending myself.

I think you should take Ambi's advice. Making a fuss over her comment
merely underscores the point she was making.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Viajero

subject: [WikiEN-l] Problem user

body:
Open an RfC on this user. List some examples of "POV pushing". If
Scandum is not citing sources for his additions and/or is ignoring
sources supplied by other users, then he IS breaking rules. Keep in mind
that an RfC on an individual should focus on personal behaviour and not
content issues.

Some users respond positively to being the subject of an RfC; others
don't. If Scandum doesn't, you may have a good case to bring before the
ArbCom.

HTH

V.


from_name: Anthere

body:
Kat Walsh a ?crit:
All involved parties should
> cool off, apologize for the intemperate words, and deal with the
> issues that underlie your barbs rather than the namecalling.
>
> -Kat
> [[User:Mindspillage]]

Nod. Exactly.

It is unfortunately real that some of us (me included sometimes) resort
to using bad words to call others when the pressure is too high.
But that happens. Best is to give it a few hours, feel the regret build
up, apology and try to put the whole thing aside. Not always easy. But
the best.

I would even go as far as saying that after a while... you get to
realise some people just blow up this way from time to time. Then, you
somehow get used to it. But generally, abusive use of insults get
oneself bad reputation.

ant


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
Sean Barrett a ?crit:
> David Monniaux stated for the record:
>
>> I think that all Wikipedia pages should contain somewhere (say, at the
>> bottom) a link to a page where people could complain about the content
>> of the articles. (I'm talking here of complaints about breach of
>> privacy, copyright violation, libel etc.)
>
>
> Thank you for volunteering to handle all these complaints promptly and
> without pay.

That might not be *exactly* the right time to tell him that, after he
spent several days on such an issue :-)

The best I can suggest is to write a good piece to put in [[about
wikipedia]] (just as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AAbout)
with a good and lenghty explanation  of the various circonstances which
can be met,

* the article talk page (with reminder that any article can be edited
and basic explanations on how to do so)
* the pump for more general contact
* wikifr-l for comment to french editors
* wikimediafr-l for comment to the association only (explain the difference)
* ca address (for private mails)
* board address etc....

ant


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
Anthere wrote:

> * the article talk page (with reminder that any article can be edited
> and basic explanations on how to do so)
> * the pump for more general contact
> * wikifr-l for comment to french editors
> * wikimediafr-l for comment to the association only (explain the
> difference)
> * ca address (for private mails)
> * board address etc....

But they should really explain which lists are public and which go to a
restricted circle of people. The real problems happen when people make
inflammatory comments to public lists.

Some users really want confrontation - i.e. they want to make a point
that they won't accept "censorship" etc. so if somebody requests some
deletion, they will make it a point of honor not to let this happen.
This degenerates into confrontations, threats and all.

Plus, again, if the problems are with privacy issues, writing to a
public list is the opposite of what the user expects.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
David Monniaux a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>
>>* the article talk page (with reminder that any article can be edited
>>and basic explanations on how to do so)
>>* the pump for more general contact
>>* wikifr-l for comment to french editors
>>* wikimediafr-l for comment to the association only (explain the
>>difference)
>>* ca address (for private mails)
>>* board address etc....
>
>
> But they should really explain which lists are public and which go to a
> restricted circle of people. The real problems happen when people make
> inflammatory comments to public lists.
>
> Some users really want confrontation - i.e. they want to make a point
> that they won't accept "censorship" etc. so if somebody requests some
> deletion, they will make it a point of honor not to let this happen.
> This degenerates into confrontations, threats and all.
>
> Plus, again, if the problems are with privacy issues, writing to a
> public list is the opposite of what the user expects.

Nod. We can explain that wikimediafr-l is public but not archived.
wikifr-l is public, archived but moderated, and that the ca adress is
private and not archived.

Ant


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Name sounds familiar

body:
[[Gay Nigger Association of America]]. A trolling group.

> SPUI's involved in this? and what's the GNAA?


from_name: Timwi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Recent goings-on

body:
A Nony Mouse wrote: ... quite a lot.

Clearly, there's a huge thread following A Nony Mouse's first posting. I
have not read it. I don't think I have the nerve. But I want to comment
on something, and I apologise if this has been said elsewhere in the
thread already.

A Nony Mouse is placing a lot of blame on admins, saying they are
clearly misbehaving in one way or another. However, with 473 admins on
the English Wikipedia, I think we are well beyond the point where we can
place any blame for large-scale emergent behavioural patterns on any
single admin or any particular set of admins.

You can't blame the admins for "feeling special", because they *are* --
they're admins, and non-admins aren't. That makes them special. You
can't blame the admins for "believing that they are somehow better than
others", because they have been elected, thereby clearly having gained
trust in the community.

I am *NOT* saying that these behaviours are perfectly okay! But you are
na?ve if you don't expect them to occur more and more as the number of
admins increases. These behaviours are within human nature, and a system
that doesn't take this into account is to blame, not the admins.

To put it bluntly: Don't be surprised that admins "exceed their
authority" if the system allows them to get away with it.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Recent goings-on

body:
Skyring wrote:
>
> Why not look at the Internet communities that DO work?

How can we when you haven't mentioned what they are?


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.5alpha2 released (forgotten code)

body:
 > MediaWiki 1.5 alpha 2 includes a lot of bug fixes, feature merges,
Brion,

on testwiki which appears to run this version, I still see in
[[Special:preferences]]
subpage MISC the user option and a checkbox

    "Show number of watching users"

The feature is described in
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727
Number of watching users per page to be shown on recent changes view (OK)

I introduced this once with my patch, but it seems that the feature has
been dropped and the removal of the option text has been simply forgotten.

In SpecialPreferences.php the line
"$wgRCShowWatchingUsers ? 'shownumberswatching' : false,"
and the "global $wgRCShowWatchingUsers" should be removed.

T.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Recent goings-on

body:
JAY JG wrote:
> From: "A Nony Mouse"
>
>> From the very first email he sent to this list I saw nothing but list
>> members being dismissive and rude.
>
> It's not the first time "Cranston" has e-mailed this list.

Huh? The very first e-mail he sent to this list is not the first time he
e-mailed this list? ... Uh...... What?


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
Anthere wrote:

>
> Nod. We can explain that wikimediafr-l is public but not archived.

It is both public and archived.


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] google sitemaps

body:
On 6/3/05, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> I think you should try to implement some google sitemaps functionality in
> future mediawiki versions. https://www.google.com/webmasters/sitemaps/login

Please file a bug report at http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/ for this
and explain why it might be useful there, make sure to link to the
specification too.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: request for 2 mailing lists

body:
Jeremy Dunck wrote:
> On 6/3/05, Kate Turner wrote:
>>i've created both of these with you as the maintainer.  i'll let you decide
>>on a description for each yourself ;-)
>
> I assume these will show up on the following page soon?
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/

I've just added them.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Name sounds familiar

body:
I don't care what he's a member of. If he can abide by Wikipedia
policies and keep his edits NPOV, I welcome SPUI to continue editing.

--Mgm
On 6/3/05, David 'DJ' Hedley <spyders at btinternet.com> wrote:
> [[Gay Nigger Association of America]]. A trolling group.
>
> > SPUI's involved in this? and what's the GNAA?
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On 6/3/05, Kate Turner <keturner at livejournal.com> wrote:
> i've created both of these with you as the maintainer.  i'll let you decide
> on a description for each yourself ;-)

I assume these will show up on the following page soon?
http://mail.wikimedia.org/


from_name: NSK

subject: [Wikitech-l] google sitemaps

body:
I think you should try to implement some google sitemaps functionality in
future mediawiki versions. https://www.google.com/webmasters/sitemaps/login

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org


from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikipedia-l] link for complaints

body:
On 03/06/05, David Monniaux <David.Monniaux at ens.fr> wrote:
> I think that all Wikipedia pages should contain somewhere (say, at the
> bottom) a link to a page where people could complain about the content
> of the articles. (I'm talking here of complaints about breach of
> privacy, copyright violation, libel etc.)

I strongly agree. Currently there are two problems; firstly people not
knowing where to report and problem and therefore not bothering, and
secondly, people assuming that the board email address is the place to
send all issues. A page which explains where each type of problem
should be reported would be helpful, not only for people needing this
information, but also for those people who are faced with constant
queries in the wrong place.

I created link to http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/Report_a_problem on
every Wikicity in an attempt to address this, since we were having the
same problem there as we have at Wikimedia. Perhaps a similar page
could be developed and translated for Wikimedia, and it might also be
useful for such a link to become a default part of MediaWiki since the
"contact us" link has now gone (from the default skin anyway).

Angela


subject: [Wikitech-l] test.leuksman.com

body:
Brion:

now, as this runs 1.5alpha2,
it would be nice to have the e-mail functions re-enabled on that testwiki.

Regards,
T.

P.S. I installed the alpha2 w/o problems ("fresh" database) and all
functions are working fine - as far as I can see.


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
> One: wiki-research-l, "A low volume list for people who are actively
> engaged in research on the Wikipedia project"

I suggest changing this to "who are actively engaged in research on the
Wikimedia project communities and content." The first change should be
obvious -- there's no reason to limit a new mailing list like this just to
Wikipedia and to not include Wikinews, Wikibooks, etc. The second change --
from the general "research" to the specific "communities and content" --
should help to ensure that technical discussions remain on wikitech-l. I
don't want to see an artificial split between research on MediaWiki and
MediaWiki development. Stuff like HistoryFlow also should be discussed on
wikitech-l, in my opinion.

> -- this list should be
> moderated with me as the moderator for now.  It should be open for
> anyone to subscribe to.  I will find a proper moderator soon.

What kind of moderation do you have in mind? I heard the Wikimedia
Foundation has appointed a Research Officer recently, maybe he's interested.
;-)

Best,

Erik

--
Weitersagen: GMX DSL-Flatrates mit Tempo-Garantie!
Ab 4,99 Euro/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl


from_name: Kate Turner

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> I would like to have 2 mailing lists set up, can someone do this for me?

> wiki-research-l
> wiki-offline-reader-l

i've created both of these with you as the maintainer.  i'll let you decide
on a description for each yourself ;-)

> --Jimbo

kate.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Recent goings-on

references:
<BAY18-F208BD9D4BEDD1DD4C87D44B8040@phx.gbl>
	<6E61B93E-C5B9-4FE1-8191-DC6C2BD1FE0C@sbcglobal.net>
	<550ccb82050530224467f908ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<d7qb31$sit$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 6/4/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Skyring wrote:
> >
> > Why not look at the Internet communities that DO work?
>
> How can we when you haven't mentioned what they are?

Are you saying that you only know of non-functional Internet communities?

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
Yann Forget stated for the record:
> Hi,
>
> Le Friday 3 June 2005 19:44, Sean Barrett a ?crit :
> [...]
>
>>Newbies get bit around here far too often.  Biting a newbie with a
>>legitimate legal complaint through an officially approved channel is a
>>recipe for disaster.
>
>
> That exactly what happens *now*.
> Complains come (from French speaking people) to wikifr-l and random users
> answer. Not good. I think that David's request is very well needed.

It appears that you did not read what I wrote.  How does having "random
users answer" consititute an "officially approved channel"?

Being able to dismiss a stupid or offensive answer as having come from a
random user of a public mailing list renders the Foundation immune to
suits, not more vulnerable.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Aw, Mom, you act like I'm not even
  sean at epoptic.com | wearing a bungee cord! --Calvin


from_name: David Monniaux

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>Such a page already exists on the English Wikipedia at
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us but since it it not linked
>prominently, few people who would find such a page useful know about it.
>
Yes... There are many things that actually are on Wikipedia, but are
difficult to find for the non-savvy.

I don't think that the biggest issue are calm people who are used to the
Internet, how it works etc. Those people will use Google or whatever
until they find good contact links, or at least they'll ponder their
actions.

The problem is people who, for some reason, are angry about our content,
don't find a clear way to talk to us, get really really angry and send
legal threats to random addresses they find on our pages.

This, especially, is compounded by the lack of a clearly identifiable
publisher/editor (which is a legal requirement in many countries for
books and periodicals, and could well be construed to be for large
Internet sites such as ours). If I take the front page of the French
language Wikipedia:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accueil
I don't know where to get this information from!

* There's a "A Wikimedia Project" (in English) icon hidden at the bottom
left. 99% of people won't know what this means (well, how is that
different from "A Mediawiki Project" and a link to some technical
computing site?). Furthermore, it links to a site in English, which most
people around the world don't read (at least, don't read fluently).
Remember, most "angry readers" will not be the kind that speak multiple
languages, know their way around the Internet, know how to use Whois,
Google etc. in order to find people.
* At the very bottom of the page, just under some big label about some
license (in English; most people don't even know what a license is
anyway) there's a link "about wikipedia" [translated]. Needless to say,
one has to look for it to find it. It links to a page that links to a
page "contact us" [translated], which is... blank! (I may fix that.)

So I think we should have a very clear text: "All text published by
their respective authors under their responsibility on servers
maintained by the Wikimedia Foundation. [[How to contact us]]."

The page "how to contact us" should first explain how to use talk pages
for mundane matters, then give the coordinates of *restricted lists* of
*responsible people* who can deal with really important matters.

There seems to be an objection to having a list for legal complaints.
What is the alternative? Currently, people make legal complaints to
public mailing lists, get not so informed, unofficial answers, etc. That
makes the situation worse.

-- DM


list: foundation-l

from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] IEEE LOM

body:
Hoi,

The IEEE LOM is a standard for providing Meta-data to the educational system. It is an open standard and it is being implemented in several
countries. Technically the standard exists into two parts. the technical labels and its localisations and localised vs universal content.

There was a Dutch organisation that asked in OTRS to host the Dutch Wikipedia so that it would be able to combine the Wikipedia content with
the IEEE LOM data. In principle there is nothing wrong with that. However if 50% of the Dutch data is of an universal nature, it would
mean that this 50% does not need to be entered for the articles in other languages. Hosting this metadata on the Wikimedia servers makes sense;
it allows for the opening up of Free content in a proprietary world. It would make a huge deduction in cost for every second language implementing the IEEE LOM data.

The questions I put to you are:
*   Are we willing to host open standard meta data for the educational world.
*   Are we willing to cooperate with organisations that are interested in implementing this data.
*   How will we manage such things; funds can be found to pay people doing this kind of work - can we consider this

Thanks,
  GerardM


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] IEEE LOM


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
David Monniaux a ?crit:
  * At the very bottom of the page, just under some big label about some
> license (in English; most people don't even know what a license is
> anyway) there's a link "about wikipedia" [translated]. Needless to say,
> one has to look for it to find it. It links to a page that links to a
> page "contact us" [translated], which is... blank! (I may fix that.)

You sweet :-)
Of course, it is blank :-)
I changed the top of this page yesterday night to include proeminently
this [[Wikipedia:contact]] link; Then I realised the entire
[[Wikip?dia:About]] page was outdated. So, I started working on it
instead of doing the "contact" page :-)

Ant


from_name: Ed W

references:
<429BA6C3.50609@wildgooses.com>	<429BB0E1.9010100@pobox.com>	<429C54EE.4080108@wildgooses.com>	<d7je6b$d7q$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<d7qk7o$tfd$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
David Friedland wrote:

> Just so everyone knows, Brion made some modifications to the patch to
> make it exhibit the desired behavior, as well as to use some utility
> functions from the Sanitizer package, and checked it into HEAD last
> night.
>
> Bug message from Brion:
> <http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=684#c18>
>
> Diff of Parser.php from CVS:
> <http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia/phase3/includes/Parser.php?r1=1.446&r2=1.447>
>
>
> Thanks Brion!

Excellent!  That looks splendid.

Thanks Brion!

OK, everyone, lets code something useful with this now!

Ed W


from_name: Nicolas Weeger

subject: [Wikitech-l] Trophees du libre prizes

body:
>> * an hosting offer "pack premium", description at
>> http://nexenservices.com/product_info.php?set_lang=en&cPath=2&products_id=17
>>
>> .Once again, i guess you decide whether to accept it or not, what to do
>> with it. I think the offer is for one year (but i can contact someone to
>> make sure, or have more details)
>
>
> Dunno what to do with this...

So should we kindly refuse the offer?
What about a test site?

>> * 4 subscriptions to DirectionPHP (
>> http://www.directionphp.biz/a_la_une.php ).
>
>
> That could be fun. :)

Meaning? :) You want to be subscribed? What to do with the 3 other?

> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Nicolas Weeger


subject: [Wikitech-l] Namespace in Friulian Wiki

body:
I'm sorry if this is a duplicate request, since I have already posted in
bugzilla, but there was no answer... the question is simple, who can I contact
to change Namespaces? who can do this?
Thank you
Andre


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: An idea

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>> We should maintain a culture of welcoming to those 15 year old
>> contributors who are doing great work.
>
> Speaking of which.  I am wondering to what extent COPPA applies to
> Wikipedia, and whether there is any legal risk for Wikimedia if
> American children under 13 years of age use Wikipedia without their
> parents' consent?
>
> LiveJournal have, for a long time, evaded the problem by simply
> prohibiting young children from using LiveJournal.  Nowadays they
> allow it, but only if they receive evidence of their parents' consent.

I'm not familiar with COPPA.  What does it stand for?  I also have no
memory of evr visiting Live Journal.

Still, whether children connect to the site is a family matter.  When
someone says that he is not a child, who can tell the difference?

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikipedia logo on T-Shirt

body:
He could even bring some to Wikimania.  Some people who attend may want
to go home with something a little more exotic.
Ec

Anthere wrote:

> Hi ajvol
>
> I think it is a good idea to make tee-shirts :-)
>
> To answer your question, the main question I would ask is "where would
> the benefits of the sale go" ?
>
> cheers
>
> Anthere
>
> ????????? ??????? a ?crit:
>
>> Saluton
>>
>> We, in Russian Wikipedia, want to print 10-20 T-shirts with Wikipedia
>> logo. Someone like http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia.18995781 but in
>> Russian language.
>>
>> So, can we use official copyrighted Wikipedia logo? (example
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nohat-logo-XI-big-text-deutsch.png
>>
>> )
>


body:
????????? ??????? wrote:

>>To answer your question, the main question I would ask is "where would
>>the benefits of the sale go" ?
>>
>>
>I hope, benefit will go for the good of Wikipedia :), but it will be
>not monetary.
>
>I plan this so: several wiki-users in Moscow will have a whip-round
>and order in printing office tee-shirts for themselves + a few as
>presents for admins (most active participants) and/or as prizes in
>contests. (If we shall agree upon it)
>
>Also, I think, some people will want to print the same tee-shirts for
>themselves in other cities.
>
>
The net profits from this exercise are bound to be very small.  If they
can be applied to help develop a Russian national organization that's fine.

Ec


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
> Anyway, the code for SUL was written and released
> in 1.4, the only thing missing is a conversion script and a sysadmin
> brave enough to apply it. So there's no need to tie it to the release
> cycle. The email authentication problem can be solved in some other way,
> such as marking all existing email addresses authenticated.

If my taking the heat for applying it will be helpful, then once there
is a conversion script and someone feels it is probably ready to run,
then I am happy to say "Let's run it now" so that if/when people's heads
explode I can be the one to blame.

--Jimbo


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: link for complaints

body:
Right

We now have this : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3AContact

ant

Anthere a ?crit:
>
>
> David Monniaux a ?crit:
>  * At the very bottom of the page, just under some big label about some
>
>> license (in English; most people don't even know what a license is
>> anyway) there's a link "about wikipedia" [translated]. Needless to
>> say, one has to look for it to find it. It links to a page that links
>> to a page "contact us" [translated], which is... blank! (I may fix that.)
>
>
> You sweet :-)
> Of course, it is blank :-)
> I changed the top of this page yesterday night to include proeminently
> this [[Wikipedia:contact]] link; Then I realised the entire
> [[Wikip?dia:About]] page was outdated. So, I started working on it
> instead of doing the "contact" page :-)
>
> An
> t


from_name: Timwi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Recent goings-on

body:
Skyring wrote:
> On 6/4/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>>Skyring wrote:
>>
>>>Why not look at the Internet communities that DO work?
>>
>>How can we when you haven't mentioned what they are?
>
> Are you saying that you only know of non-functional Internet communities?

No, I just think that different people have different opinions on what
constitutes a community that "works". In my mind, Wikipedia works, but
clearly you disagree. So when you tell us to look at something that
fulfills _your_ criteria, you should tell us what it is, or we will be
left to guess what _your_ criteria are.

But anyway -- I've noticed elsewhere in the thread that you were
probably talking about LiveJournal and BookCrossing. I don't know the
latter. As for LiveJournal, you mentioned that it "includes the sort of
members who are well-educated, well-spoken, intelligent and fun to be
with" -- I might have agreed to that about two or three years ago, but
in my experience LiveJournal is increasingly taken over by the
illiterate. It is also a long shot to claim that it "works" -- it is the
target of avalanches of spam and trolling, and the management barely
comes up with features to even come anywhere near combatting it. When a
LiveJournal community still has active maintainers, they can keep the
noise somewhat down by deleting and banning, but it is a lot of work and
not very rewarding (you get a lot of complaints that you have deleted
legitimate stuff). In practice, most communities, not to mention all
syndicated feeds, do not have (active) maintainers.

I'm not sure why I've written all this, as it doesn't really have
anything to do with Wikipedia. LiveJournal is not a creative or
collaborative work, so the aspects that make it "work" are entirely
irrelevant for Wikipedia.

Timwi


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: An idea

body:
Timwi stated for the record:

> Speaking of which.  I am wondering to what extent COPPA applies to
> Wikipedia, and whether there is any legal risk for Wikimedia if American
> children under 13 years of age use Wikipedia without their parents'
> consent?

It does not apply at all.  COPPA specifies what information a site is
allowed to collect about children under 13.  We don't collect any
applicable information about our users.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Aw, Mom, you act like I'm not even
  sean at epoptic.com | wearing a bungee cord! --Calvin


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Statistics

body:
Yann Forget wrote:
> Hi,
>
> FYI, we have now 21 Wiktionaries with more than 1,000 articles and 20 more
> with more than 100 articles.

Although of course counting the number of articles/words can lead to an
excessive valuation of stubs, I think it is also quite fun and
interesting, if done cautiously.

It is always wonderful to celebrate milestones, and I love hearing about
them.  Please anyone who notices a language drawing close to a
milestone, let's celebrate it here.

--Jimbo


from_name: David Gerard

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Switch on wikien-l moderation again instead of
	rejection?

body:
How's the antivirus filtering on mail.wikimedia.org? The less
obviously dispensible crap in the mailing list queue, the closer it
will be to humanly manageable ...

I'm not sure the spam has abated, but having any mails from real
people rejected is a bad thing. (wikien-l, unlike wikitech-l, has many
legitimate users who can't work computers. Also, it's a semi-official
contact point for blocked users on en:.

Mind you, the queue is going to be a nightmare to deal with. The Nazi
spam hasn't abated in the slightest, apparently, with a fresh attack
going out about a week ago. Good article from Der Spiegel (in English)
on the Nazi virus, which sends people to Spiegel articles (which
they're not happy with):

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,356297,00.html

- d.


from_name: Ivan Krstic

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Switch on wikien-l moderation again instead
	of	rejection?

body:
David Gerard wrote:
>>How's the antivirus filtering on mail.wikimedia.org? The less
>>obviously dispensible crap in the mailing list queue, the closer it
>>will be to humanly manageable ...

I strongly recommend taking a look at greylisting:

 http://projects.puremagic.com/greylisting/

I've run it on two high-volume production mail servers for a few months
now without a single legitimate message getting hard-bounced, and the
spam volume has dropped tremendously. Adding one or two good, trusted
RBLs (say, SBL-XBL) might also be worth considering. Greylisting is
trivial to set up with Postfix, by the way.

-IK


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Switch on wikien-l moderation again
	instead	of	rejection?

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> Although I understand there are now spam
> engines that retry failed messages ...

Yes, there are, but they're still rare enough to not reduce the general
effectiveness of the method (I think I received a total of one or two
German spams). This will probably change down the road, but it's a
pretty good solution until then, at no cost and almost no possibility of
failure in the absence of a badly broken MTA.

-IK


from_name: Carl Witty

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: possible interwiki solution

body:
On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 15:10 +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Elly Waterman wrote:
> > Actually I think the system of interwiki links is not optimal at all.
> > It would be better, to have a central location were all the
> > interwiki's are listed, like commons. [...]
>
> I think your proposal is mostly working from the assumption that there
> exists a one-to-one mapping between the articles of one Wikipedia and
> all the articles of all the other Wikipedias.  Unfortunately, some
> Wikipedias are a bit pig-headed and almost deliberately ensure that this
> assumption can never hold.  For example, the German Wikipedia seems to
> have a rule that forbids it to ever have an article like [[Vulcan (Star
> Trek)]].  Instead, the interwiki link on the English article links to a
> German article about all Star Trek races which is very much less
> detailed.  Obviously, there can never be a link back to the English article.

Well, I think a proposal like this could still reduce duplication
significantly, and would work fine even in the above scenario.  (Note: I
haven't looked up the real article names; I'm making up article names
for the following.)  For instance, you could have [[en:Vulcan]] (and
[[ja:Vulcan]], and [[fr:Vulcan]], etc.) refer to [[interwiki:Vulcan]];
[[interwiki:Vulcan]] would refer to [[en:Vulcan]], [[ja:Vulcan]],
[[fr:Vulcan]], and [[de:Star Trek Races]].  The German article [[de:Star
Trek Races]] would refer to [[interwiki:Star Trek Races]], which would
refer to [[en:Star Trek]], [[ja:Star Trek]], [[fr:Star Trek]], and
[[de:Star Trek Races]].  This cuts the number of
lists-of-interwiki-links to maintain from 4 to 2.  (I don't know if it
actually reduces the amount of work involved in maintaining interwiki
links, because I don't know how sophisticated the bots are.)

Carl Witty


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: An idea

body:
On 6/4/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> I'm not familiar with COPPA.  What does it stand for?  I also have no
> memory of evr visiting Live Journal.
>
> Still, whether children connect to the site is a family matter.  When
> someone says that he is not a child, who can tell the difference?

You know, ... it would be really handy if we had some kin of
encyclopedia, something online and free.... which we could use to find
out such things.

[[COPPA]] on en.  :)


from_name: Mathias Schindler

subject: [Wikitech-l] google sitemaps

body:
?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
> On 6/3/05, NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
>
>>I think you should try to implement some google sitemaps functionality in
>>future mediawiki versions. https://www.google.com/webmasters/sitemaps/login
>
>
> Please file a bug report at http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/ for this
> and explain why it might be useful there, make sure to link to the
> specification too.

I did not see a submission to that bugzilla by NSK regarding sitemaps so
I filed one myself:

http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2320

I would be happy to see this extension :)

Mathias


from_name: Elly Waterman

subject: [Wikitech-l] possible interwiki solution

body:
For several months now, I have been busy with the interwiki links, using Rob
Hoofts bot. The more I am working with it, the more work there has to be
done, it seems. Others are also working hard on it. Actually I think the
system of interwiki links is not optimal at all. It would be better, to have
a central location were all the interwiki's are listed, like commons. The
big advantage would be there is only one location where you have to put you
interwikis, and were you can correct the errors. The number of edits would
be reduced enormously.
Maybe it could even be combined with the existing commons. The system could
start by making a dump of all interwiki's from English wikipedia, which I
think has the most interwiki's.

For instance for the article Bablefish:

- On the central location, there is a page Bablefish which lists all
interwikis only. Maybe it needs one or two sentences for explanation, if
required to explain the exact meaning.
- On your local language wikipedia you have to link only to this page
Bablefish. Automatically the links appears at the side of the article, the
same way as we are used to now.

Of course there will be difficulties to solve, like which languages to be
used. Will it be allowed to rename those pages (please don't). Maybe these
both problems might be solved by redirects. I personally wouldn't care if
the main language is English. Surely, these pages are only a technical means
to streamline of the enormous amount of interwiki's. Has anyone ever
estimated them? And how much effort all the editing costs? The name of these
pages could be a number as well, but that is not how people like to work.

Maybe this has been suggested before, in that case, my apologies.

Elly Waterman


from_name: Josh Gordon

subject: [WikiEN-l] Redress against personal attack?

body:
Reminds me of something I saw a few times on the highways outside of Tokyo a
few years ago. An impatient driver cuts off another driver; the driver who
had been cut off gestures an apology, as if to say "Excuse me for being so
rude as to put you in a position in which you felt it necessary to cut me
off."

--jpgordon ~~~~

On 6/4/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> >I'd like to know what my options are after Ambi called
> >me a jerk:
> >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration#Everyking_3_deadlock.3F
> >
> >Now, before I make a fool of myself making an
> >inappropiate fuss on the wiki, maybe someone could
> >tell me if there are any proper channels of redress
> >for this kind of thing, whether or not Ambi is
> >'untouchable' and therefore it's not worth me
> >defending myself.
>
> Here's the best option in such cases, in my opinion:
>
> "Ambi, I am really very sorry about all this. I did not mean to be a
> jerk. My comment about 'Perry Mason' was rude and uncalled for, and I
> regret it. I also think that you should not have called me a jerk, but
> since I hope you will forgive me for my behavior, I have already
> forgiven you for calling me a jerk. Here's hoping we can be friends
> soon, and again, I apologize for causing you any trouble."
>
> Thinking about "defending" oneself is already going down a path to
> further conflict.
>
> WikiLove...
>
> --Jimbo
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
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>