subject: [Wikitech-l] Smoother treatment of actions like "unwatch"

body:
On 26/08/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> Would it be possible to follow the lead of many websites, and replace
> the two-step phase "The page ... has been removed from your
> watchlist."/click "Return to ...", by a one-step phase, whereby the
> page is shown again, but with a banner up the top that reads "This
> page has been removed from your watchlist"?
>
> I imagine the mechanism would be something like what happens when you
> click a redirect (as we were discussing recently): The target of the
> redirect is shown, but with some added text explaining where you came
> from.

>From the UI perspective, yes. From the backend perspective...well...

> This would apply to at least these actions:
> * Watch
> * Unwatch
> * Move

Disagree with moves; users need to be more aware of what needs to
happen as a consequence of moving large pages, and the screen full of
information that appears after a move is the best place for it.
>
> Something similar could be done when saving an edit, adding text like
> "Your edit has been saved."

Might be a nice bit of visual confirmation, although it requires a
change to how we handle the process; right now, we issue a redirect
and make the user re-request the page.

> Any takers? Should I bugzilla this asa  formal feature requset?

Yes.

Rob Church


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] More slogans

body:
On 8/26/06, Stephen Streater <sbstreater at mac.com> wrote:
>
> On 26 Aug 2006, at 14:33, Sam Korn wrote:
>
> > On 8/26/06, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 8/26/06, niht-hr?fn <nihthraefn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Aug 25, 2006, at 9:53, Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I've always liked "Wikipedia - the people's encyclopedia"
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Wikipedia is to information what democracy once was to
> >>> government: of
> >>> the people, for the people, by the people.
> >>
> >> Exactly! I realise that people might associate it with a certain
> >> Peoples republic (ironic, since said People's Republic are blocking
> >> us), But I really do think it describes us fairly well.
> >
> > Information of the world, unite!
>
> There is a risk that we will put all primary sources out of business:
>
> Wikipedia - the encyclopaedia you used to be able to edit.

Journals seem to be pretty robust (although there are various projects
to change the current system) and there seem to be a large number of
people rather attached to dead tree technology.
--
geni


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
Would it be possible to follow the lead of many websites, and replace
the two-step phase "The page ... has been removed from your
watchlist."/click "Return to ...", by a one-step phase, whereby the
page is shown again, but with a banner up the top that reads "This
page has been removed from your watchlist"?

I imagine the mechanism would be something like what happens when you
click a redirect (as we were discussing recently): The target of the
redirect is shown, but with some added text explaining where you came
from.

This would apply to at least these actions:
* Watch
* Unwatch
* Move

Something similar could be done when saving an edit, adding text like
"Your edit has been saved."

Any takers? Should I bugzilla this asa  formal feature requset?

Steve


from_name: Rob Church

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

body:
On 26/08/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> If by any chance, anyone works on this, would it also be possible to
> do the name check *before* the upload, rather than afterwards? It's
> happened to me a couple of times that I've uploaded a file of several
> meg, wandered off, and found out later that it's waiting for me to
> confirm that I really do want to take the incredibly drastic step of
> replacing the spaces in the name with underscores.

That particular check should be binned, there's no real point in it;
the image is addressed the same when editing, regardless.

You should find that the upload happens once; the code behind it
"stashes" the file elsewhere when presenting warnings, and passes back
a hidden token which lets MediaWiki know about the save state.

Rob Church


from_name: Daniel R. Tobias

subject: [WikiEN-l]  Wiki entropy

body:
On 25 Aug 2006 at 10:48:54 -0700 (PDT), stevertigo wrote:

> Slogan: "Wikipedia: Leave your baggage at home
>                     (or else be prepared to deal with it)"

Are carry-ons allowed?

> wasted energy. If Jimbo doesnt step up, Im going to have to appoint an
> editorial board. You should be on it of course, SlimV.

Are you leaving out apostrophes, or is software somewhere along the
line stripping them out (perhaps because you're using nonstandard
characters instead of standard ASCII)?

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


from_name: Tels

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Moin,

On Saturday 26 August 2006 16:17, Steve Bennett wrote:
> Would it be possible to follow the lead of many websites, and replace
> the two-step phase "The page ... has been removed from your
> watchlist."/click "Return to ...", by a one-step phase, whereby the
> page is shown again, but with a banner up the top that reads "This
> page has been removed from your watchlist"?
>
> I imagine the mechanism would be something like what happens when you
> click a redirect (as we were discussing recently): The target of the
> redirect is shown, but with some added text explaining where you came
> from.
>
> This would apply to at least these actions:
> * Watch
> * Unwatch
> * Move

Please ad "login". I hate it when I want to edit, then have to click in that
order:

  * while loged out, click "edit"
  * see msg about need to log int, click "login"
  * (firefox fills in pwd/user) press button "login"
  * click "go back to page"
  * click "edit"

That could be reduced by at least one click :)

All the best,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Sat Aug 26 17:01:33 2006 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "My glasses, my glasses. I cannot see without my glasses." - "My
 glasses, my glasses. I cannot be seen without my glasses."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)

iQEVAwUBRPBi7ncLPEOTuEwVAQLJHAf9H+cFsmiy+SEvIIk3qKlk+3wXy/q6xMVn
l8WWFF8XgJaLVTCmcTHK5yXeoh8iGFvVgbYrzaPfVCnNALTyqiplk5hYicux43fc
4JfuJa9HvgqWia/5RQL8484bwaK+3HS0QBDpeFPKt9Jo3RJ133w1ucKuJCON0zs0
I7uEZTiIhxg9DnBryrd0KGl0vfFEQKZ8vzhGNemv1BdykNWeMWtVMgbCMjzN3mAb
DR/heVyH01CrjABgZwa9fYA9mrR7aiiKbZiYhQCEkxXkTg5I7WxB8ogWOHuoESR+
jyKooecovVpdaH1SW1e+e8s4eto1Lbzg1hi3+o9DR3ockv6LOBeYcw==
=c4pl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


body:
On 8/26/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> Disagree with moves; users need to be more aware of what needs to
> happen as a consequence of moving large pages, and the screen full of
> information that appears after a move is the best place for it.

That's actually fair enough. But boy that text could be improved.
There should be *law* against having two hyperlinks in the same
sentence when you actually *want* the user to click on one of them.
I'm talking about the sentence that goes "Please [check] to see if any
[double redirects] have been created." It should be something like
"Please check to see if any double redirects have been created. [Show
all double redirects]."

Filing...

Steve


from_name: Cheney Shill

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Images and original research (was: [[New
	anti-Semitism]] and...)

body:
Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:

>On 8/25/06, jkelly at fas.harvard.edu wrote:
>> I think that there is something smart about making this distinction, which I
>> failed to do, but I'm not sure that it is one we usually make. If I state that
>> my tree picture shows damage from acid rain, do I need a source for that? What
>> level of interpretation are we comfortable with?

>If anyone is disputing the fact that it's acid rain damage, you should
>find a source. If anyone is asking for a source just to be difficult,
>use your own judgment.

>Seriously though, on FPC you'd be amazed by the number of
>misidentifications. Photographers who are not bird/lizard/animal
>experts frequently misidentify the subject of their shot. And for
>photos that are all about context, a source is even more important: a
>photo of a few hundred protestors tells you *nothing* unless you know
>roughly who they are, where they were, when it was, and what they were
>protesting about.

I like jkelly's extended example and your elucidation, even though it didn't mention snakes.  With regard to the photo, I think it's espeically important to have a source given the artistic nature of the picture photographed and that their are no clear anti-semite indications included in it.  And, of course, there's the small issue of photo-manipulation.

To me, the picture looks more like a cynical interpretation of the entire situration where everyone is making a deal with a devil, especially considering that the devil is wearing armbands of Nazis, the US, and the Israel flag and in writing you have "COUNTERFEIT JEWS".  I could easily imagine Jews holding this at a peace rally, especially when you see it in context of an anti-capitalism sign held next to it and the anti-Iraq-war rally was in 2003, not this summer:
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_february_16_2003/

~~Pro-Lick
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Halliburton_Shill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pro-Lick
http://www.wikiality.net/index.php?title=User:Pro-Lick

--spam may follow--

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Everyone is raving about the  all-new Yahoo! Mail.


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Leon Weber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] [Wikitech-l]  WikiCharts

body:
Steve Bennett schrieb:
> http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/?wiki=enwikiversity
>
> Awesome. Can we have this on en Wikipedia?
>
Okay, done. http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/?wiki=enwiki
> Steve
>
> On 8/26/06, Leon Weber <leon.weber at leonweber.de> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I've finished WikiCharts now. A short description can be found here:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiCharts
>>
>> As described there: If you'd like to have WikiCharts for your wiki, just
>> contact me in the IRC (my nick is LeonWP).
>>
>> -- Leon
>>
--Leon


subject: [Wikitech-l] [Wikipedia-l] WikiCharts


subject: [Wikitech-l] [Wikipedia-l]   WikiCharts

body:
Steve Bennett schrieb:
> http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/?wiki=enwikiversity
>
> Awesome. Can we have this on en Wikipedia?
>
Okay, done. http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/?wiki=enwiki
> Steve
>
> On 8/26/06, Leon Weber <leon.weber at leonweber.de> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I've finished WikiCharts now. A short description can be found here:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiCharts
>>
>> As described there: If you'd like to have WikiCharts for your wiki, just
>> contact me in the IRC (my nick is LeonWP).
>>
>> -- Leon
>>
--Leon
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


body:
On 8/26/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Any takers? Should I bugzilla this asa  formal feature requset?
>
> Yes.

http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7129

Steve


subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

body:
On 8/26/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> The most we could do is to check that the extension was on the allowed
> list; we'd still have to check *what* the user uploaded afterwards and
> make sure it was still allowed.

If by any chance, anyone works on this, would it also be possible to
do the name check *before* the upload, rather than afterwards? It's
happened to me a couple of times that I've uploaded a file of several
meg, wandered off, and found out later that it's waiting for me to
confirm that I really do want to take the incredibly drastic step of
replacing the spaces in the name with underscores.

(even better, skip that confirmation altogether)

Steve


subject: [Wikitech-l] Edit conflicts

body:
On 8/26/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to see it removed in more cases; more intelligent handling of
> merges. And in the cases where it does come up, as mentioned above,
> I'd like to see people presented with a fancier interface (where
> possible), to make it all easier.
>
> I'd suspect an edit conflict is up there with other horrendous quirks
> when putting newbies off participating in discussions.

It's obviously annoying enough that people frequently mention it in
their actual posts ("argh! 2 edit conflicts!") Hardly ever happens to
me. I must type too quickly :)

Steve


subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

body:
On 8/26/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> You should find that the upload happens once; the code behind it
> "stashes" the file elsewhere when presenting warnings, and passes back
> a hidden token which lets MediaWiki know about the save state.

Yeah, I didn't mean that the upload happens twice, the process is like:

1. Press upload
2. Make coffee
3. Confirm that you want to rename the file
4. File is available.

I don't know how long you can wait between steps 3 and 4.

Steve


list: foundation-l

from_name: Samuel Klein

subject: [Foundation-l] special projects committee open meetings

body:
A quick reminder :

We are holding an open meeting of the special projects committee now
on IRC in #wikimedia-spcomm , and another next week (whether Sat or
Sun still to be decided; see below).

Those without irc access can leave questions and comments on Meta;
those who want to come next week are encouraged to note which day next
week they could make a meeting:

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Special_projects_committee

Cheers,
  SJ


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Some light entertainment for you...

body:
On 26/08/06, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Would you think "this is nonsense"? Maybe "someone writing about their
> best friend"? Time to speedy?
> Or, you could stick all of the following tags on it:
> {{userfy}} {{uncat}} {{unref}} {{linkless}} {{wikify-date|August 2006}}
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Welch

They forgot {{toomanyboxes}}, of course.

- d.


body:
What would you do across a page that only said:
----------
Elizabeth Welch is an Australian-born resident of Rockwall County,
Texas. She attends school at Rockwall High School, where she is
involved in the American Sign Language Club and Academic Decathalon.

Elizabeth was raised in Alice Springs, Australia by her parents Sue
and Larry Welch. She has two older brothers, Danny and Robby Welch.
Eliabeth also has 3 dogs and 1 cat.

Elizabeth Welch has family scattered all around America. She has one
set of grandparents living in Benbrook, Texas, one in Dialville,
Texas, and one in Redlands, California. Elizabeth is directly related
to the famous American poet Elizabeth Barrett Browning.
--------

Would you think "this is nonsense"? Maybe "someone writing about their
best friend"? Time to speedy?

Or, you could stick all of the following tags on it:

{{userfy}} {{uncat}} {{unref}} {{linkless}} {{wikify-date|August 2006}}

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Welch

Steve


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Blocking anon page creation was an experiment,
	wasn't it?

body:
On 8/26/06, Anthony <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
> This would be a good thing, for sure.  But having seen no study
> conducted, I'm not convinced that this can be achieved.  And also,
> it's pretty much obvious that all other things *don't* remain equal.
> At least some people have switched their attention to Articles for
> Creation, for instance, an activity which wasn't necessary before this
> change.

The quality of articles coming out of AfC is higher than the quality
of articles written directly by anons. Or at least it is when I do it
;)

Steve


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] proposed new project - wikistandards

body:
On 8/25/06, No Spam <nospam at cacace.org> wrote:
> I would like to propose a new wikiproject, called wikistandards, in which the community at-large contributes to the creation of international standards (a wiki version of ANSI and ISO).

There is a working prototype of this project at
http://www.wikiforstandards.org/

There was considerable interest from the language standards community
when this was first discussed, but interest dropped when we actually
gave them a wiki to play with.
--
Peace & Love,
Erik


from_name: Kim Bruning

subject: [Foundation-l] September 2 Wikimedia Conference Netherlands!

body:
WCN, wikimedia conference netherlands will be
held in Utrecht (The Netherlands) on september 2.

This is the place to be if you missed wikimania.
It's still the place to be if you didn't ;-)

We're all payed up and ready to go, and it turns out
we still have space for something like 50 people,
so I was thinking of getting some people from
the neighborhood (germany, france?) as well.

It only costs Eur 15,- for the day to attend.

Here's the dutch language site:
http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Conferentie_Nederland

If you're interested yourself, here's a sign up page
http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN/inschrijving

You want a translation? Yup, we're working on that
*right* now. Hang on.

Hope to see y'all there! :-)

read you soon,
	Kim Bruning

--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wiki entropy

body:
jayjg <jayjg99 at gmail.com> wrote:

>On 8/26/06, Cheney Shill wrote:
>> It also seems that the article title has a very definite spin to it that would be better captured
>>under Hezbollah or a Pro-Lebanon article considering that the
>opposition of the "New" is not
>> just Israel.

>Do you have any idea whatsoever what the article is about?

It's about Israel being a demon of satan and working with the other demon the USA.  It's obvious by the picture and a picture is worth a 1000 words so why read?

~~Pro-Lick
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Halliburton_Shill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pro-Lick
http://www.wikiality.net/index.php?title=User:Pro-Lick

--spam may follow--

---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

body:
Nick Jenkins wrote:
>> But to get us started, someone needs to make
>> that UI mockup.
>
> Very draft mock-up of a possible UI, from what I think you're describing:
> http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/ui-draft-mockup.png
> In the picture, the "Notify others of my edit" box should be ticked (since it is shown in the list).
> Maybe "Notify others of my edit" should labelled "Notify others of my progress"?
> Maybe the number of characters changed should be shown, maybe it shouldn't.
> Maybe the name of the other user should be shown, and maybe it shouldn't.
> Maybe the user's own changes should be shown in the list, maybe they shouldn't.

Thanks for that. Can we have the HTML source for it?

> For the messages between client JavaScript and the PHP on the server, sounds like maybe there are 3 types of messages:
> 1) A status update when someone starts editing something, or a periodic update as they make changes.
> 2) A method for querying what the current status is of ongoing edits it.
> 3) A response from the server as to what the status of current edits is.
>
> Format 1 probably needs the summary, section, revision, time since the user last changed anything in the textbox, and possibly the
> number of characters changed. The server presumably already knows the username from the cookie.
> E.g.: (Section, chars modified, revision, seconds since last change, edit summary):
> ["Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"]
>
> Format 2:
> Can just be a get request, using the exact same URL format as per index.php :
> e.g. GET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/edit-status.php?title=User:Nickj/Sandbox
>
> Possible response format from PHP on server for number 3 (in response to GET request #2) is:
>
> # No conflicts:
> []
>
> # Only one conflict. Fields are: Username, section name, changed characters, timestamp of version editing, seconds since last
> change, edit summary:
> [["User:Nickj","Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"]]
>
> # Two conflicts (sorted by seconds since last change?) :
> [["User:Nickj","Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"],["User:203.15.35.81","",1000,20041112231221,100,"I am a Vandal!"]]
>
> You probably also need a timeout mechanism (e.g. if haven't received a status report from a client in 5 mins, then drop the user
> from the list), and maybe also a message to inform the server if the user aborts the edit (although they can just click the "back"
> button, rather than clicking "cancel", in which case you probably won't get the message).

I imagine we would have both a client-side timeout and a server-side
timeout. The client-side timeout would be a maximum idle period, it would
turn off the periodic updates to prevent excessive resource usage when the
user leaves the computer with an edit window open. The server-side timeout
would cancel the editing status when the client stops sending messages for
whatever reason. The server could also redundantly enforce the maximum idle
time. As for cancel buttons: is it possible to send a cancel message
asynchronously, without blocking the client from leaving the page?

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Foundation-l] REMINDER: Skypecast - Messages for board members

body:
Anthere schreef:
> Actually, I somehow lost (?) the software which allowed me to read the
> ogg files, so I heard the second link.
>
> I'll be interested in being recommanded a software to read the ogg file
> (which will be 1) free of charge and 2) for a macintosh).
>
> Greg, can you help ?
>
> Anthere

The only Macintosh I have is an antique. But so far I know the
recommended player for playing Ogg Vorbis on Mac, at least if it is
MacOS X, is VLC;
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-macosx.html

That is a very advanced player&more but you can also use it for playing
a Ogg Vorbis file.

My apologies btw for the hard words in the email to otrs-en-l  I did not
knew it was you :-)

Greetings,
Walter

--
Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Hoi,
I will be speakeing about Wikidata/WiktionaryZ .. I will have my slides
in English (promise) and personally I will be happy to present in
English as well.. That may solve the translation problem a bit (plenty
of people can translate to Dutch).

With a little bit of luck I may show you that we have our first bits of
versioning :)

Thanks,
     GerardM

Kim Bruning wrote:
> WCN, wikimedia conference netherlands will be
> held in Utrecht (The Netherlands) on september 2.
>
> This is the place to be if you missed wikimania.
> It's still the place to be if you didn't ;-)
>
> We're all payed up and ready to go, and it turns out
> we still have space for something like 50 people,
> so I was thinking of getting some people from
> the neighborhood (germany, france?) as well.
>
> It only costs Eur 15,- for the day to attend.
>
> Here's the dutch language site:
> http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Conferentie_Nederland
>
> If you're interested yourself, here's a sign up page
> http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN/inschrijving
>
> You want a translation? Yup, we're working on that
> *right* now. Hang on.
>
> Hope to see y'all there! :-)
>
> read you soon,
> 	Kim Bruning
>
>


in_reply_to:
<44F09520.1050906@gmail.com>;
	from gerard.meijssen@gmail.com on Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 08:38:24PM
	+0200

body:
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 08:38:24PM +0200, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> I will be speakeing about Wikidata/WiktionaryZ .. I will have my slides
> in English (promise) and personally I will be happy to present in
> English as well.. That may solve the translation problem a bit (plenty
> of people can translate to Dutch).

Don't go scaring folks off now! ;)

read you soon,
	Kim

--
[Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72


subject: [Wikitech-l] [Wikipedia-l] WikiCharts

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Moin,

On Saturday 26 August 2006 17:24, Leon Weber wrote:
> Steve Bennett schrieb:
> > http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/?wiki=enwikiversity
> >
> > Awesome. Can we have this on en Wikipedia?
>
> Okay, done. http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/?wiki=enwiki
>
> > Steve
> >
> > On 8/26/06, Leon Weber <leon.weber at leonweber.de> wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >> I've finished WikiCharts now. A short description can be found here:
> >>
> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiCharts

Cool! I wonder tho if it would be worth to shorten the text send and stored
in the log a bit for the multi-million hit cases:

[25/Aug/2006:10:54:35 +0000]
"GET /index.png?ns=User&title=Anneke%20Wolf&factor=601&wiki=dewiki
HTTP/1.1"

Could be:

[25/Aug/2006:10:54:35 +0000] "GET /i.png?ns=User&t=Anneke%20Wolf&f=601&w=de
1.1"

In addition, a high factor is nec. for high-hit sites, but makes things
worse for low-hit sites/articles (due to high error margin). I am not sure
how to make that dynamical, tho.

Best wishes,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Sat Aug 26 21:07:10 2006 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "Blogebrity: Wow, guess what this one stands for? Too easy. Hey, anyone
 can do it: take a blogger who's a chef, and you get: BLEF. A blogger
 who's a dentist? BENTIST. A female blogger with an itch? You guessed it:
 a BITCH." -- maddox from xmission

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)

iQEVAwUBRPCchXcLPEOTuEwVAQKmbQf9GEjbw/e5z8u5CuK9EZ/Z4NZLa4Mo2pSW
hs4ewVWP2KgQPtuFTR7QpC3XAkYZdmMXmK5HOAlcP5sh9QUAJgm2oErcsVQEVSxU
FMeIZGcfKJDe/voL4xqKG/UomvjQAB/seLirY7vhTUvhUafxZ6/w+KsLHKU6tab+
QvSt1ykJZqSNP0tdrCrfN+rvuyCwSo0yp1BLp6hVoD95XJzZAGPWXUO6xrYhQv89
d4zpoexIbEkdd9I1mQujD2yjwUTstesVL1HNJIlpvqe7QTIUVB7A5VUN7dEDwrpc
T8j8I3s+B1P7TDDyXNc767TXvRSC5w6TlaCnGpCENbZoXcipYNirSw==
=vBvL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] OTRS for wikien

body:
On 8/26/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Im a little tired of mail threading, subject forking, ineditability,
> untaggability, and the general disorganization of the standard Piper.
>
> Something better, there is?  OTRS comes to mind, but that
> might be too process oriented. Something... mailable, threadable, that
> can show >> text as hidden in a collapsable div... something that will
> do all of that and yet be low-maintenance... :)
>
> SV
> ...Something that can strip the footer that will be at the end of this
> message...

You should REALLY try gmail, it is almost unsettling how smart it is
in collapsing what you don't need to see. Almost all footers (except
for the first one in a thread, I think that's how it works by
recognizing lines that repeat from mail to mail) gets collapsed,
aswell as all quoted text, except when you need to read it to get the
context of the message. I find myself going "How the hell did Gmail
know I needed to read that!!!". It will also sort mails into
"conversations" which is worse than threading (since it doesn't
explicitly show who responded to whom) but is never a problem. You can
also tag each conversation with whatever you want to make it easier to
sort through. It has a brilliant search engine which you can find
anything with, it has mindnumbingly large storage space and it's
archiving concept means you never have to delete a thing (i've
currently got 177 mb of mail in my account, most of it wikien) but
still get mail out of your inbox. It really is the best there is.

I'll send you an invitation :P

--Oskar


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

references:
<44E9A0AF.8080108@web.de>	<ece7r5$ps6$1@sea.gmane.org>	<44EAB0D6.70007@web.de>	<ecfi2a$gq1$1@sea.gmane.org>	<44EC0315.9060001@web.de>	<eckhdt$mhp$1@sea.gmane.org>	<7c2a12e20608240900o3fc97013k7c220b50b3480f43@mail.gmail.com>	<ecl9gm$dij$1@sea.gmane.org>	<7c2a12e20608241543o7f0d1628va79f5e4aafde134e@mail.gmail.com>	<ecnbin$fed$1@sea.gmane.org>	<7c2a12e20608251103k5605f4a9i8bd65a4d3d843c55@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecnj0r$3f8$3@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:

[someone else wrote:]
>> .. . . you get the picture.  There is literally *no* *security*
>> *reason* *at all* for MediaWiki to not send arbitrary GET requests.
>> Period.
>>
>
>
OK, here's one scenario. This feature could be used for
denial-of-service attacks against other sites, by using Wikipedia's
high-bandwidth server farm as a dowload bandwidth amplifier: an attacker
could simply set many downloads going at once to one server, at the cost
of trivial bandwidth overhead to set up each connection.

-- N
> Okay then, go ahead and introduce the feature :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] OTRS for wikien

body:
I don't really know what that format would be. A forum? A wiki-style
page (which there are plenty of on wikipedia)? A newsgroup (which is
essentially the same thing as a mailinglist, see
news://news.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english )?
If you want real discussion, you can't try to limit what somebody is
saying, and if you have as many members as wikiEN has, there are going
to be a lot of posts and not always easy to follow the discussion.
Threads and forks and subject renamings and funny posts are going to
occur. The only way to limit it is to drastically cut down on the
number of members ("Everyone with less than 2000 edits must DIE!!!"),
and that's not an option that any of us wants.

Personally, I think the mailinglist/newsgroup (NNTP) way is by far the
greatest way of conversing on the internet. Although, for shorter
discussion that may take longer time (ie talkpages), the wiki-way is
pretty awesome.

--Oskar
On 8/26/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You should REALLY try gmail, it is almost unsettling how smart it is
> > in collapsing what you don't need to see. Almost all footers (except
> > for the first one in a thread, I think that's how it works by
> > recognizing lines that repeat from mail to mail) gets collapsed,
> > aswell as all quoted text, except when you need to read it to get the
> > context of the message. I find myself going "How the hell did Gmail
> > know I needed to read that!!!". It will also sort mails into
> > "conversations" which is worse than threading (since it doesn't
> > explicitly show who responded to whom) but is never a problem. You can
> > also tag each conversation with whatever you want to make it easier to
> > sort through. It has a brilliant search engine which you can find
> > anything with, it has mindnumbingly large storage space and it's
> > archiving concept means you never have to delete a thing (i've
> > currently got 177 mb of mail in my account, most of it wikien) but
> > still get mail out of your inbox. It really is the best there is.
> >
> > I'll send you an invitation :P
>
> Well that's client based and I was talking about something server-based
> that helps everyone see the threads in better way.
>
> The idea is that subject headers are almost entirely useless for
> following a thread, and for understanding the value of particular mails.
> Oftentimes people will interject one-line humour into serious discussions
> about policy, and this will basically kill the thread. Sometimes people
> try to change funny discussion into serious discussion. Oftentimes we find
> threads are just repeats of earlier types of topics, and its hard to tell
> if 1) you dont know the history or and 2) you dont read up on all the
> current threads well enough to understand the connections.
>
> Anyway its neat that G-mail can do all of that sorting from just plain email,
> and I certainly will try it out (again). :)
>
> SV
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Simetrical

references:
<ecmt43$qgt$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<NABBJGECPILFNLFEAPIKGEBPIMAA.nickpj@gmail.com>
	<ecp18s$e6c$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 8/26/06, Ligulem <ligulem at pobox.com> wrote:
> While you guys are at it: could you make the edit summary field larger?
> I mean extending it to right edge of the window. I always do have a
> strong key hole viewing feeling when looking at this edit page.

One-line stylesheet change: input#wpSummary { width: 80%; }.  I've had
it in my personal CSS for a while now, and it's much better.


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New language proposal: Wikipedia...

body:
On 8/26/06, Frederick FN Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, Can you please help me start a Wikipedia in a new language --
> Konkani? It's one of the official languages of India, but one of the
> smallest. Spoken by between 1.7 to 5.5 million (depending on whom you
> ask) people mainly along the west coast of India. FN
> PS: See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=knn
>

According to [[en:Konkani]], there are three different writing systems
for this language. Which one would be used?

Alfio


from_name: Jeffrey V. Merkey

subject:
[Foundation-l] Open question from an Election Official:
 on	voters' elibiglity

references:
<35be2a710608250421v5834bb22l6bd47f88861fb3e6@mail.gmail.com>	<44EF1A4E.8080806@wolfmountaingroup.com>
	<44EFBC2A.20606@telus.net>	<44EFC2B8.2010507@wolfmountaingroup.com>	<35be2a710608252112i374a8d9bg66d100469fd6ae7e@mail.gmail.com>	<44EFCF08.9060206@wolfmountaingroup.com>
	<44EFEC2F.20906@telus.net>	<44F003D8.9050302@wolfmountaingroup.com>
	<ecp0s9$dej$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e2a50e360608262013q7bf12ab9k423f99584cf68cc8@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Austin Hair wrote:

>On 8/26/06, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>As one of the list moderators, my finger is one inch away from the
>>moderator button for you. The comment above is not really acceptable.
>>
>>
>
>For those who've asked in the past weeks, this is another of the very
>few codified reasons for moderation on this list: "incivility."  I
>absolutely concur.
>
>Austin
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
Well, I won't be incivil here again. And I apologize for any outbursts.
I am after all, only human,
as we all are.

Jeff


from_name: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Accented characters (was Re: fancruft)

body:
I personally think that the reasonable middle ground would be that
genuine accents and other real diacritical marks should be redirects
to the accentless form, but where it is a question of what looks like
an umlaut or circumflex or the like, actually being a completely
separate letter than the letter which lacks that graphical feature,
the misspelling used by ignorant English publications should be the
redirect. I really think such cases qualify as a misspelling, and not
a translitteration. But I don't expect to convince anyone. The
question in general should not excite great discord, as long as there
are redirects.

--
--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, AKA. Cimon Avaro

Candidate for Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation in the
September 2006 elections.


body:
Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:

>Austin Hair wrote:
>
>
>
>>On 8/26/06, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>As one of the list moderators, my finger is one inch away from the
>>>moderator button for you. The comment above is not really acceptable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>For those who've asked in the past weeks, this is another of the very
>>few codified reasons for moderation on this list: "incivility."  I
>>absolutely concur.
>>
>>Austin
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Well, I won't be incivil here again. And I apologize for any outbursts.
>I am after all, only human,
>as we all are.
>
>Jeff
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
And I am not going to try to vote in the election or raise any more
stink about it. I have too much other important work to
do for our Wikipedia projects for language preservation for me to become
embroiled in debates and fights which
are not focused on achieving this goal. I have several languages to
save, and this task has nothing to do with elections,
Wikimedia administration, or any other internal issues. I also have
significant resources and technical skills and I am
not dependent in any way on the Foundation or Wikia for hosting or
support (in fact its the other way around). I do have
a need for collaboration on language projects and content and licensing
and IP issues. My apologies to all involved for
loosing sight of this important task.

Jeff


from_name: Austin Hair

subject:
[Foundation-l] Open question from an Election Official: on
	voters' elibiglity

references:
<35be2a710608250421v5834bb22l6bd47f88861fb3e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<44EF1A4E.8080806@wolfmountaingroup.com> <44EFBC2A.20606@telus.net>
	<44EFC2B8.2010507@wolfmountaingroup.com>
	<35be2a710608252112i374a8d9bg66d100469fd6ae7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<44EFCF08.9060206@wolfmountaingroup.com> <44EFEC2F.20906@telus.net>
	<44F003D8.9050302@wolfmountaingroup.com> <ecp0s9$dej$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 8/26/06, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> As one of the list moderators, my finger is one inch away from the
> moderator button for you. The comment above is not really acceptable.

For those who've asked in the past weeks, this is another of the very
few codified reasons for moderation on this list: "incivility."  I
absolutely concur.

Austin


from_name: jayjg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wiki entropy

body:
On 8/26/06, Cheney Shill <halliburton_shill at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> It also seems that the article title has a very definite spin to it that would be better captured
>under Hezbollah or a Pro-Lebanon article considering that the
opposition of the "New" is not
> just Israel.
>
>

Do you have any idea whatsoever what the article is about?

Jay.


from_name: Frederick "FN" Noronha

body:
Hi, Can you please help me start a Wikipedia in a new language --
Konkani? It's one of the official languages of India, but one of the
smallest. Spoken by between 1.7 to 5.5 million (depending on whom you
ask) people mainly along the west coast of India. FN
PS: See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=knn

Konkani
A language of India

ISO/DIS 639-3: knn
Population      4,000,000 (1999 WA). Population includes 99,000 Thakuri (1991).
Region  North and central coastal strip of Maharashtra; Karnataka;
Dadra and Nagar Haveli; Kerala.
Alternate names         Konkan Standard, Bankoti, Kunabi, North Konkan,
Central Konkan, Concorinum, Cugani, Konkanese
Dialects        Agari of Kolaba, Parabhi (Kayasthi, Damani), Koli, Kiristav,
Dhanagari, Bhandari, Thakuri (Thakari, Thakri, Thakua, Thakura),
Karhadi, Sangamesvari (Bakoti, Bankoti), Ghati (Maoli), Mahari (Dhed,
Holia, Parvari). The dialects listed are closely related. Related to
Katkari (Kathodi, Katvadi), Varli, Phudagi, Samvedi, Mangelas.
Classification  Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Southern zone, Konkani
Language use    Official language. Some speak nonstandard Konkani.
Language development    Kannada script. Newspapers. Films. Dictionary.
Grammar. NT: 1970.
Comments        Hindu, Christian.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org  9822122436 +91-832-240-9490
http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com fredericknoronha at gmail.com

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org  9822122436 +91-832-240-9490
http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com fredericknoronha at gmail.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] [Wikipedia-l] WikiCharts

body:
Could this store data for *all* articles?  In particular, it could
come in very handy for the question of what page to redirect an
ambiguous term to.  Of course, you would get down to very low numbers
at a certain point of obscurity, but those could build up to
reasonable significance over enough time even for quite minor
articles.

By the way, what algorithm are you using to determine the +/- figures,
out of curiosity?


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

body:
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 08:06:17PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> > Are we *ever* going to get a way to edit ledes without having to lock
> > the whole page?
>
> Edit any section, then change 'section=n' in the URL to 'section=0'.

Which means the machinery is in place, just not the UI.  Thanks for
pointing that out, Timwi.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.


subject: [Foundation-l] Wolf Mountain Wikipedia-Content Endowment Proposals

body:
I have setup an endowment I have been working on with a large
university, several Federally recognized Tribes, and several
outside financial contributors to support foundation projects for Native
Language Preservation and have been discussing it
with the Foundations attorneys for several months.   I am nearing
closure on the endowment and have obtained committments from several
large charitable groups.  The endowment is seeking total contributions
of $10,000,000.00 to fund Wikipedia Language programs
and content promotion, publishing, and educational programs for Native
American Communities.   A percentage of these contributions are
slated to be applied to approved Foundation projects which support these
programs.

I would like for interested community members who have an interest in
working on Language preservation programs for languages
which will require machine assisted translation and direct machine
translation to consider submitting project proposals identifying
language groups which would benefit from such a program.  Please submit
any written proposals to myself and Brad Patrick
for review (if Brad wants to see them that is, otherwise, send them to
me directly).    The Foundation has no direct agreements
with this program beyond shared community goals, but any programs where
it chooses to contribute or be involved are welcome,
and programs which have shared resources will of course have shared
access to funding opportunities.

I invite anyone who can identify languages which could benefit from such
a program in any area or country where these languages
are in danger of being lost forever to consider making proposals.   You
need to be a native speaker of these languages if you want us
to seriously consider working with you on such a program.    All
languages are welcome if any Native Speakers wish to contribute
time to assist in creating a vehicle to package Wikimedia into
accreditted educational porgrams.

Sincerely,

Jeff


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

body:
On 8/26/06, Neil Harris <neil at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> OK, here's one scenario. This feature could be used for
> denial-of-service attacks against other sites, by using Wikipedia's
> high-bandwidth server farm as a dowload bandwidth amplifier: an attacker
> could simply set many downloads going at once to one server, at the cost
> of trivial bandwidth overhead to set up each connection.

You could pretty much rule that out by limiting downloads to one at a
time per login. And you could do that simply by checking the time
since the last download started, and making sure it was at least 10
minutes ago or something. Or to be nicer, check when the *second last*
download started, in case they made a mistake and want to try again.

Steve


body:
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 02:38:57PM +1000, Nick Jenkins wrote:
> > But to get us started, someone needs to make
> > that UI mockup.
>
> Very draft mock-up of a possible UI, from what I think you're describing:
> http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/ui-draft-mockup.png

Not bad.

Given the functionality extension of the edit summary, I think perhaps
the entire box should be moved up above the textedit window...
(Specifically, the fact that what you put in the summary will now be
visible before you click any buttons (onblur?))

> In the picture, the "Notify others of my edit" box should be ticked (since it is shown in the list).
> Maybe "Notify others of my edit" should labelled "Notify others of my progress"?

"Hide that I'm editing", and default it to off.  The negative connotation
will change the default amongst people who don't care in a fashion that
will make the feature more useful, while not keeping people who care
from switching it.

> Maybe the name of the other user should be shown, and maybe it shouldn't.

I like the summary the way you have it.

> Maybe the user's own changes should be shown in the list, maybe they shouldn't.

Perhaps they should; to reinforce to people whether they're visible or
not...

> You probably also need a timeout mechanism (e.g. if haven't received
> a status report from a client in 5 mins, then drop the user from the
> list), and maybe also a message to inform the server if the user
> aborts the edit (although they can just click the "back" button,
> rather than clicking "cancel", in which case you probably won't get
> the message).

I think you can trap pageexit, though I'm not positive.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.


from_name: Stephen Streater

subject: [WikiEN-l] More slogans

body:
On 26 Aug 2006, at 19:49, stevertigo wrote:

> --- "Daniel R. Tobias" <dan at tobias.name> wrote:
>
>> "Wikipedia: Useful enough to be dangerous."
>
> "Wikipedia: Informative enough to make you a pariah (within
> McSociety)."

Dangerous enough to be useful.


body:
Aphaia wrote:

>Sorry, a bit off-topic but I found some worthy-mentioned things on this page.
>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jeffrey_V._Merkey
>
>To Chrwiki:User:Jeffrey V. Merkey
>I am not sure if you are reading my mail, but assuredly you are not
>eligible for vote as far as you vote from this account. Further
>information on vote eligibility is found at
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Election
>
>
>
>
It's ok Aphaia, I don't care if I get to vote or not, and I appreciate
you taking the time to
review I **ACTUALLY** have been doing something of useful editing for
the Foundation.

I apologize for blowing up at you and I hope you can forgive me.

All my love,

Jeff


body:
On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 03:41:57AM +0100, Rob Church wrote:
> On 27/08/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> > Which means the machinery is in place, just not the UI.  Thanks for
> > pointing that out, Timwi.
>
> See also http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156.

Noted, Rob.  Thanks.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

body:
On 8/26/06, Neil Harris <neil at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> OK, here's one scenario. This feature could be used for
> denial-of-service attacks against other sites, by using Wikipedia's
> high-bandwidth server farm as a dowload bandwidth amplifier: an attacker
> could simply set many downloads going at once to one server, at the cost
> of trivial bandwidth overhead to set up each connection.

Nothing that can't be done already with, say, ImageShack.  We could
throttle per IP as well as per user (to a higher rate than one per ten
minutes, though), and if someone's going to use lots of anonymous
proxies or a botnet, they could just use them to download directly.
We could also provide X-Forwarded-For to indicate directly who's
causing the trouble, unless we're going to suppress that for privacy
reasons (which would be slightly ironic given our situation with ISPs
like AOL).

If someone uses Wikipedia for abuse, obviously that person could be
dealt with.  The abuse isn't disastrous, many existing sites would
enable it equally well, and so it shouldn't be held against a
potentially quite useful feature in the slightest.


body:
Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:

>Aphaia wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sorry, a bit off-topic but I found some worthy-mentioned things on this page.
>>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jeffrey_V._Merkey
>>
>>

I have been doing most of my edits on the Cherokee Wikipedia from here
actually (I forgot my password and have to email it:

http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.199.56.14

http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.10.174.164

http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.103.108.66

http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.199.40.68

Jeff

>>To Chrwiki:User:Jeffrey V. Merkey
>>I am not sure if you are reading my mail, but assuredly you are not
>>eligible for vote as far as you vote from this account. Further
>>information on vote eligibility is found at
>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Election
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>It's ok Aphaia, I don't care if I get to vote or not, and I appreciate
>you taking the time to
>review I **ACTUALLY** have been doing something of useful editing for
>the Foundation.
>
>I apologize for blowing up at you and I hope you can forgive me.
>
>All my love,
>
>Jeff
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>


body:
Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:

>Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>
>>Aphaia wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Sorry, a bit off-topic but I found some worthy-mentioned things on this page.
>>>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jeffrey_V._Merkey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>I have been doing most of my edits on the Cherokee Wikipedia from here
>actually (I forgot my password and have to email it:
>
>
Oops, this one actually.

http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.199.56.15

:-)

Jeff

>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.199.56.14
>
>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.10.174.164
>
>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.103.108.66
>
>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.199.40.68
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>To Chrwiki:User:Jeffrey V. Merkey
>>>I am not sure if you are reading my mail, but assuredly you are not
>>>eligible for vote as far as you vote from this account. Further
>>>information on vote eligibility is found at
>>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Election
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>It's ok Aphaia, I don't care if I get to vote or not, and I appreciate
>>you taking the time to
>>review I **ACTUALLY** have been doing something of useful editing for
>>the Foundation.
>>
>>I apologize for blowing up at you and I hope you can forgive me.
>>
>>All my love,
>>
>>Jeff
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>


from_name: Kelly Martin

subject: [Foundation-l] Today's SpComm meeting

body:
This is a nag from your friendly Internal Communications Subcommittee
reminding the SpComm to please publish a summary of the happenings at
the SpComm open meeting which took place earlier today (yesterday, for
you eastern hemisphere types).  Not everyone in Wikimedia was able to
attend the meeting, and keeping all of us informed of what's going on
is really quite important.

I look forward to seeing a report soon.

Kelly


subject: [Foundation-l] Today's SpComm meeting


subject: [Wikitech-l] Teaser trailer

body:
On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 04:03:29AM +0100, Rob Church wrote:
> Allow me, ladies, gentlemen and those in between, to shove a
> screenshot under your noses.
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mediawiki/0/09/Drafts_%28mockup%29.png

Velly intelesting...

> This assumes Tim doesn't beat me to it again, of course. But if I have
> another ton of notes and planning go to waste, I will be pissed off.

Now, now...

> (Nothing planned at present, aside from the UI mockup here. I'm not
> starting this for a while, one reason being that I think our users can
> suffer a bit longer. Teach them a lesson in simple manners...)

Could you expand a bit on the use case you're trying to solve?  I can
see a lot of usage for that on non-WMF MW's, but I'm not sure how well
it would fit in on The Big Ones...

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject:
[Wikitech-l] OT: What language would *you* have done it in,
	and why?

body:
> (Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>):
> > Unthreaded: in a clear field, Chad, what *would* you have implemented
> > MediaWiki in?  And why?
>
> I can't speak for other people, but I would do the parser in C (using
> lex/yacc) and the rest in Perl.
>
> For the parser, I'm sure the "why" is self-evident. For the rest, the
> answer to "why" unfortunately includes "I don't know any Python or
> Ruby". All I know is that PHP is unsuitable for anything larger than a
> quick hack.

Just for the record, I probably would have done the whole thing in
Java except that PHP had two advantages I couldn't ignore: one, it let
me get the whole thing up and running in 2-3 weeks at a time when the
existing wiki was in serious meltdown and had to be fixed quickly;
second, it allowed me to replace some of the existing code incrementally
for easier testing.


from_name: Lars Aronsson

body:
Robert Scott Horning wrote:

> You are wrong here.  Wikibooks can't be used for such development,

Yes, you're correct and I was wrong.  I didn't think too much
about that part and I'm sorry for that.  However, I still think
writing the document is the lesser problem and having it adopted
as a standard by the right people and organizations (or making
them take part in writing the document) is the hard part.

> Construction standards are indeed a mess and there is far too
> much politics in the process.

Politics is the word.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


body:
>>>>Sorry, a bit off-topic but I found some worthy-mentioned things on this page.
>>>>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jeffrey_V._Merkey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>I have been doing most of my edits on the Cherokee Wikipedia from here
>>actually (I forgot my password and have to email it:
>>
>>
>>
>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.199.56.15
>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.10.174.164
>
>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.103.108.66
>
>http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.199.40.68
>
>
>
>
If you checkuser the Jeffrey_V._Merkey account on the Cherokee Wkipedia,
you will find it matches these IP addresses. They all resolve to utah
comcast.net and the 70.103.108.66 is a shared IP gateway at solera
networks (a company I owned before I sold it) and this address is shared
by about 20 folks at my office. It's just easier when I complete article
translations on WikiGadugi to post them to the Cherokee Wikipedia from
my ip ranges rather
than login to the Cherokee Wikipedia - since I am the only editing it
with actual content at present. Jeff


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-08-27

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Template with thumb image (with link in description)... FAILED!
Running test Template infinite loop... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Parsing optional HTML elements (Bug 6171)... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting... FAILED!
Running test TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold... FAILED!
Running test TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line... FAILED!
Running test TODO: HTML Hex character encoding.... FAILED!
Running test TODO: dt/dd/dl test... FAILED!

Passed 412 of 429 tests (96.04%) FAILED!


from_name: Sarah

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [[New anti-Semitism]] and violations of NPOV re: top
	image

body:
On 8/26/06, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> It's the point of primary and secondary sources to investigate what's
> *actually* true; to argue for or against various claims and
> interpretations; and generally to try to take the point of view they see
> as correct.  I want an encyclopedia to provide me a map of those primary
> and secondary sources, not to constitute one itself.
>
> In that respect, I think Britannica is indeed worse in many cases.  If
> what I wanted was a POV summary of a topic, I'd look for those opinions
> in a book published by a well-respected author in the field, or in a
> survey/review article in a peer-reviewed journal.
>
Exactly right. The articles with a byline are the worst ones in that
respect: articles by experts giving only their POV, which we could
read in any of the papers or books they've written about the subject,
and after reading the entry, we're still left with the question: "But
what do other people think about this?" Wikipedia, at its best,
answers that question. Britannica, at its best, doesn't often manage
to.

Sarah


body:
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 11:15:15PM -0500, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > (Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>):
> > > Unthreaded: in a clear field, Chad, what *would* you have implemented
> > > MediaWiki in?  And why?
> >
> > I can't speak for other people, but I would do the parser in C (using
> > lex/yacc) and the rest in Perl.
> >
> > For the parser, I'm sure the "why" is self-evident. For the rest, the
> > answer to "why" unfortunately includes "I don't know any Python or
> > Ruby". All I know is that PHP is unsuitable for anything larger than a
> > quick hack.
>
> Just for the record, I probably would have done the whole thing in
> Java except that PHP had two advantages I couldn't ignore: one, it let
> me get the whole thing up and running in 2-3 weeks at a time when the
> existing wiki was in serious meltdown and had to be fixed quickly;
> second, it allowed me to replace some of the existing code incrementally
> for easier testing.

Well let us all give thanks for meltdown, then.  :-)

Not the person I expected a reply from, but welcome back, I guess.

Cheers,
-- jr "if you were, y'know, gone" a
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

	The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.


from_name: Delirium

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [[New anti-Semitism]] and violations of NPOV re: top
 image

body:
Mark Gallagher wrote:
> G'day Sarah,
>
>
>> The thing that always strikes me now when I read the Encyclopaedia
>> Britannica is how POV it is, and I often wonder why we're aiming to be
>> as good as them, when in fact (at our best) we can be so much better.
>>
>
> At our best, we *can* be much better than Britannica.  This is for a
> variety of reasons, but I don't think NPOV really is one.  NPOV is Good,
> yes, but it doesn't make us Better.  Maybe this is because my POV is
> closer to Britannica's than yours is, and I'm thus biased.
>

Well, I suppose it depends on what you think the purpose of an
encyclopedia is.  In my opinion, the purpose of an encyclopedia is to be
a good tertiary source---that is, to document the current state of many
fields, as a way of quickly gaining an overview and pointer to more
detailed information.  As such, it should be neutral and dispassionate,
and one that is *is* in fact better than one that takes a point of view.

It's the point of primary and secondary sources to investigate what's
*actually* true; to argue for or against various claims and
interpretations; and generally to try to take the point of view they see
as correct.  I want an encyclopedia to provide me a map of those primary
and secondary sources, not to constitute one itself.

In that respect, I think Britannica is indeed worse in many cases.  If
what I wanted was a POV summary of a topic, I'd look for those opinions
in a book published by a well-respected author in the field, or in a
survey/review article in a peer-reviewed journal.

-Mark


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload large files

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 8/26/06, Neil Harris <neil at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> OK, here's one scenario. This feature could be used for
>> denial-of-service attacks against other sites, by using Wikipedia's
>> high-bandwidth server farm as a dowload bandwidth amplifier: an attacker
>> could simply set many downloads going at once to one server, at the cost
>> of trivial bandwidth overhead to set up each connection.
>>
>
> You could pretty much rule that out by limiting downloads to one at a
> time per login. And you could do that simply by checking the time
> since the last download started, and making sure it was at least 10
> minutes ago or something. Or to be nicer, check when the *second last*
> download started, in case they made a mistake and want to try again.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
>
>
That check would be easily worked around by, for example, creating many
different accounts, and launching an attack from each one. Yes, you can
build countermeasures to try and stop that, but there are
counter-counter-measures to those, and so on...

-- Neil


subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures

body:
On 8/26/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I agree this is an instance where chapters are very
> useful.  I didn't mean to imply that nothing should be
> sent on to the Foundation.  But if the individual
> editors take care of the easy ones.  And also gather a
> list of the exact contact info of people who requested
> to deal with someone official.  Well providing that
> list to one the commitees or something is a different
> proposition than asking the Foundation to gather free
> photos of celebrities for Wikipedia in general terms.
>
> Birgitte SB

Whether a chapter, the foundation or an officer for obtaining open content
material (I do like that idea) writes it doesn't matter yes. As long as it
looks official to the persons/companies receiving. But I also wouldn't mind
if the foundation itself did it, considering the (possibly legal) mess of
fair use images on en.wikipedia. Which is where this whole idea originated.

Garion96


subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures

body:
Garion96 wrote:
> On 8/26/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree this is an instance where chapters are very
>> useful.  I didn't mean to imply that nothing should be
>> sent on to the Foundation.  But if the individual
>> editors take care of the easy ones.  And also gather a
>> list of the exact contact info of people who requested
>> to deal with someone official.  Well providing that
>> list to one the commitees or something is a different
>> proposition than asking the Foundation to gather free
>> photos of celebrities for Wikipedia in general terms.
>>
>> Birgitte SB
>>
>
>
> Whether a chapter, the foundation or an officer for obtaining open content
> material (I do like that idea) writes it doesn't matter yes. As long as it
> looks official to the persons/companies receiving. But I also wouldn't mind
> if the foundation itself did it, considering the (possibly legal) mess of
> fair use images on en.wikipedia. Which is where this whole idea originated.
>
> Garion96
Hoi,
The WMF does have a lot of work and too few people to do things. When
the Foundation is to these things as well, when do they have time to do
their Foundation work?
Thanks,
     GerardM


subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures


subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures

body:
On 8/27/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Garion96 wrote:
> > On 8/26/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I agree this is an instance where chapters are very
> >> useful.  I didn't mean to imply that nothing should be
> >> sent on to the Foundation.  But if the individual
> >> editors take care of the easy ones.  And also gather a
> >> list of the exact contact info of people who requested
> >> to deal with someone official.  Well providing that
> >> list to one the commitees or something is a different
> >> proposition than asking the Foundation to gather free
> >> photos of celebrities for Wikipedia in general terms.
> >>
> >> Birgitte SB
> >>
> >
> >
> > Whether a chapter, the foundation or an officer for obtaining open
> content
> > material (I do like that idea) writes it doesn't matter yes. As long as
> it
> > looks official to the persons/companies receiving. But I also wouldn't
> mind
> > if the foundation itself did it, considering the (possibly legal) mess
> of
> > fair use images on en.wikipedia. Which is where this whole idea
> originated.
> >
> > Garion96
> Hoi,
> The WMF does have a lot of work and too few people to do things. When
> the Foundation is to these things as well, when do they have time to do
> their Foundation work?
> Thanks,
>     GerardM

Yes, I do realise the foundation is small (in people) and does a lot of
work. I do read this mailing list. :) Plus the idea was not that the
foundation would always do those things. Just a one time standard letter and
send copies to all those big companies. And hey, it's just an idea.

Garion96


subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures


from_name: Ihar Hrachyshka

subject: [Foundation-l] Belarusian (Orthography Revision of 1959) Wikipedia

body:
Hello!
I have the question: can our Wiki start the registration procedure or there
are too much "oppose" votes? Is there any policy on this subject?
Anyway, I think it's time to register the Belarusian (Orthography Revision
of 1959) Wiki.
The discussion can be found here:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Belarusian_.28Orthography_Revision_of_1959.29_.2829_support_.2F_11_oppose.29

If it's ready for "production" stage of the procedure, please add us to the
"acception query".

Thanks for attention!
Best regards,
BooXteR.


from_name: James Hare

subject:
[Foundation-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: African Languages Grow as a
	Wikipedia Presence

body:
And no mentions of Paa Kwesi! I'm shocked!

On 8/27/06, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> I received this e-mail by Martin Bejamin.. I think you may be interested
> in
> reading what the Newyork Times has to say about content in African
> language
> Wikipedias. Enjoy :)
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
>         [image: The New York Times] <http://www.nytimes.com/> [image:
> E-mail
> This] <
> http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/arts&pos=TopRight-EmailThis&camp=foxsearch2006-emailtools12-nyt5&ad=LMS_88x31_toolssponsor_atlas.html&goto=http://clk.atdmt.com/ORG/go/nwyrkfxs0040000007org/direct;at.orgfxs00000913/01/
> >
> *This page was sent to you by: * martin.benjamin at yale.edu
>
> * ARTS *   | August 26, 2006
> * African Languages Grow as a Wikipedia Presence
> <
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/26/arts/26wiki.html?ex=1157256000&en=70f591e301156e4b&ei=5070&emc=eta1
> >
> *
> By NOAM COHEN
> How do you create an online encyclopedia when few native speakers have
> access to the Internet?
>
>
>
>
> <
> http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/arts&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2006-emailtools15-nyt1&ad=sunshine_NP_120x60ida.html&goto=http://clk.atdmt.com/ORG/go/nwyrkfxs0040000009org/direct;at.orgfxs00000912/01/
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Rob Church

body:
On 27/08/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> Which means the machinery is in place, just not the UI.  Thanks for
> pointing that out, Timwi.

See also http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156.

Rob Church


from_name: Simetrical

subject: [Wikitech-l] #time

body:
On 8/27/06, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> I have written a new parser function for time and date formatting, called
> #time. It is an interface to Language::sprintfDate, a function which I wrote
> a few weeks ago to support internationalisation. Documentation is at:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ParserFunctions#.23time
>
> It allows things like {{#time:F|+2 hours}} to get the month name in CEST.

Excellent!  This will make a ton of ridiculously complicated templates
obsolete.  Could you add the rest of the letter codes?  I'm sure
people would find U useful if they needed to do date arithmetic, for
instance.  It shouldn't reduce performance, since the case statements
would be at the end and therefore just ignored unless they match,
right?


subject: [Wikitech-l] Teaser trailer

body:
Allow me, ladies, gentlemen and those in between, to shove a
screenshot under your noses.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mediawiki/0/09/Drafts_%28mockup%29.png

This assumes Tim doesn't beat me to it again, of course. But if I have
another ton of notes and planning go to waste, I will be pissed off.

(Nothing planned at present, aside from the UI mockup here. I'm not
starting this for a while, one reason being that I think our users can
suffer a bit longer. Teach them a lesson in simple manners...)

Rob Church


from_name: Carlos

subject: [Wikitech-l] Teaser trailer

body:
Rob Church wrote:

> Allow me, ladies, gentlemen and those in between, to shove a
> screenshot under your noses.
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mediawiki/0/09/Drafts_%28mockup%29.png
>
> This assumes Tim doesn't beat me to it again, of course. But if I have
> another ton of notes and planning go to waste, I will be pissed off.
>
> (Nothing planned at present, aside from the UI mockup here. I'm not
> starting this for a while, one reason being that I think our users can
> suffer a bit longer. Teach them a lesson in simple manners...)

It's an excellent idea. I suggest an alternative/complementary approach:
only keep the last "draft", & save it when the user clicks on "Show
preview" or "Show changes". This will make the feature available to
users which don't use javascript (I sometimes use w3m or Dillo), and
will fulfill the purpose (I don't know if it's the one you had in mind)
of encouraging users not to hit "Save" every five minutes.

Greetings.
--


subject: [WikiEN-l] WTF Have I Missed?

body:
On 8/27/06, Joe Anderson <computerjoe.mailinglist at googlemail.com> wrote:
> This article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5286458.stm) got my
> concern. Editorial control on the Wikipedia? What exactly have I missed?

You basically missed the fact that Bill Thompson is fond of talking
out of his ass.

Mark's description of what German is going to be testing is not
accurate.  Anonymous users will still be permitted to make all the
edits they want.  The system that German is going to be testing will
simply limit the impact that anonymous EDITORS have on anonymous
READERS by changing which version of an article is displayed by
default.

Kelly


from_name: Birgitte SB

subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures

body:
--- Garion96 <garion96 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 8/27/06, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Garion96 wrote:
> > > On 8/26/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I agree this is an instance where chapters are
> very
> > >> useful.  I didn't mean to imply that nothing
> should be
> > >> sent on to the Foundation.  But if the
> individual
> > >> editors take care of the easy ones.  And also
> gather a
> > >> list of the exact contact info of people who
> requested
> > >> to deal with someone official.  Well providing
> that
> > >> list to one the commitees or something is a
> different
> > >> proposition than asking the Foundation to
> gather free
> > >> photos of celebrities for Wikipedia in general
> terms.
> > >>
> > >> Birgitte SB
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Whether a chapter, the foundation or an officer
> for obtaining open
> > content
> > > material (I do like that idea) writes it doesn't
> matter yes. As long as
> > it
> > > looks official to the persons/companies
> receiving. But I also wouldn't
> > mind
> > > if the foundation itself did it, considering the
> (possibly legal) mess
> > of
> > > fair use images on en.wikipedia. Which is where
> this whole idea
> > originated.
> > >
> > > Garion96
> > Hoi,
> > The WMF does have a lot of work and too few people
> to do things. When
> > the Foundation is to these things as well, when do
> they have time to do
> > their Foundation work?
> > Thanks,
> >     GerardM
>
>
> Yes, I do realise the foundation is small (in
> people) and does a lot of
> work. I do read this mailing list. :) Plus the idea
> was not that the
> foundation would always do those things. Just a one
> time standard letter and
> send copies to all those big companies. And hey,
> it's just an idea.
>
>
> Garion96
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Since you really want this to happen here is my
suggestion.  Draft a letter that you think appealing.
Put together a spreadsheet of with all the address and
appropriate personalizations for the mailing wizard
substitution thing.  Submit this together with your
proposal to both the communications committee and the
special project committees.  Maybe one of them will be
able to approve your letter and send it out all
official-like.  I don't really know if they would but
that has a better chance than anything else I can
think of.

I don't think my earlier message was clear on one
point.  I was not trying to make a judgment on whether
the Foundation should be doing this sort of thing.  I
meant get across that although the celebrities might
be more likely to release a photo to someone with an
official position within the Foundation.  The
likelihood of someone from the foundation actually
taking the task on, especially the all the legwork, is
very low.  From what I understand there is generally a
struggle to complete tasks that really do require
officialness.  Your original post seemed to be trying
to find the best way to obtain these photos in a short
time.  I don't think going through the Foundation will
lead to good results here, and it definately will not
be quick.

Now this is just my take from reading this list every
day.  These sorts of things, regardless if they are
good ideas, are the kind of requests that just never
get done, in fact they normally don't even get
responded to.  I do not actually do any Foundation
work myself, I should probably not even be answering
you as it might be misleading.  The reason I did was
because I didn't expect anyone else to, and I thought
you had the wrong idea about what the Foundation
really was.  Most people in the projects have the
wrong idea about the Foundation, including me some
months back.

Birgitte SB

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures


from_name: geni

body:
On 8/27/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> To developers:
> There was something wrong around August 1, when we tried to update the
> sitenotice. We thought it changed globally, but apparently, not. Geni
> suggested already there were other projects lacking the sitenotice.
>

You did except in the cases where there was already something in
sitenotice. This has to be the case in order to allow people to
translate the thing.

--
geni


from_name: Anthony

subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures

body:
On 8/26/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> The WMF does have a lot of work and too few people to do things. When
> the Foundation is to these things as well, when do they have time to do
> their Foundation work?
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
Maybe the foundation should expand.  There are certainly some people
who want to be members, who haven't yet been given the opportunity,
despite the fact that the bylaws say they should.

Wikimedia is "powerful enough now that we can insist on [free images],
and get it, from just about any celebrity".  Joe Schmoe Wikipedian is
not, and if a dozen people contact someone claiming to be acting on
behalf of the foundation, even that power is quickly going to
dissipate.

At the very least a press release should be made asking for free
images of celebrities.  Or maybe a "Personal Appeal from Wikipedia
Founder Jimmy Wales", for images, not for money.  Maybe an official
address where companies can "send their pictures", along with a
standardized release form putting them under CC-BY-SA.  Then at least
anyone who wants to go rogue and start asking for images on their own
has something to point to.  But what makes sense in addition is to
have a coordinated effort to get the word out, so as to avoid
duplication.

I'm not at all good at writing press releases, so I won't volunteer
for that.  But if no one else wants to do it I'd be willing to
maintain a page on meta where we can gather contact information and
hand out assignments to contact the appropriate people.  It's not that
it's a hard job, it's just that the Foundation hasn't contacted
someone and asked them to do it.

As a final note, consider this.  Wikimedia is very protective of its
trademark.  For good reason it doesn't want random people speaking on
behalf of itself.  The *only* way to leverage the name of Wikimedia is
to get official permission to do so.  Aside from that, just randomly
contacting huge corporations and asking for free pictures pretty
please, it just aint gonna work.

Anthony


subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures


from_name: GerardM

body:
Hoi,
I received this e-mail by Martin Bejamin.. I think you may be interested in
reading what the Newyork Times has to say about content in African language
Wikipedias. Enjoy :)
Thanks,
    GerardM

        [image: The New York Times] <http://www.nytimes.com/> [image: E-mail
This] <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/arts&pos=TopRight-EmailThis&camp=foxsearch2006-emailtools12-nyt5&ad=LMS_88x31_toolssponsor_atlas.html&goto=http://clk.atdmt.com/ORG/go/nwyrkfxs0040000007org/direct;at.orgfxs00000913/01/>
*This page was sent to you by: * martin.benjamin at yale.edu

 * ARTS *   | August 26, 2006
 * African Languages Grow as a Wikipedia Presence
<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/26/arts/26wiki.html?ex=1157256000&en=70f591e301156e4b&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
*
 By NOAM COHEN
 How do you create an online encyclopedia when few native speakers have
access to the Internet?

<http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/arts&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2006-emailtools15-nyt1&ad=sunshine_NP_120x60ida.html&goto=http://clk.atdmt.com/ORG/go/nwyrkfxs0040000009org/direct;at.orgfxs00000912/01/>


from_name: Frederick "FN" Noronha

body:
Not three! Actually, there are *five* scripts currently used to write
Konkani in. Using the alphabetical order to describe the same below:

* Devanagari script, also afforded official language status in Goa
* Kannada script, used by a large community in the Indian region of Karnataka
* Perso-Arabic, used by a small community of Muslims along the south
Indian coast.
* Malayalam script: used by a  diminishing number (if I understand
right) of people in parts of the south Indian state of Kerala.
* Roman script (earlier additional Portuguese symbols were used, now
just the alphabets available on the typewriter keyboard).

As you probably understand, there is a lot of discussion as to which
is the "best" and "most suitable" script. The current ground-level
situation is that at least three of these scripts are currently used
at the ground-level, for the transfer of ideas and knowledge among the
community.

To complicate matters somewhat, Konkani has traditionally been a
spoken language, though in Goa we had the first printing press in
Asia, which landed here in 1556 (yes, 1556).

My suggestion is as follows: rather than getting caught up in the
script-based rivalry, we create something positive out of it. Let us
make it possible for people to contribute in whatever script they feel
comfortable with. The *Devanagari* and *Kannada* scripts (maybe
*Malayalam* too) can ride piggy-back on the efforts of the Hindi,
Kannada (and Malayalam) language initiatives. Since the script is
common with these languages. So, once the technical issues are sorted
out for these bigger Indian languages, Konkani's technical problems
are dealt with too. Text inputting, Unicode, keyboard layout etc...
all such issues are the same with the other Indian languages which
they share a script with.

In the script of Roman script Konkani, work on it could start almost
as fast as we find volunteers (and I believe this might not be too
difficult a job for now, and plan to work on it personally).

The only question remains whether all the scripts will coexist in one
Wikipedia -- ko.wikipedia.org -- or we have separate ones for
different scripts. Giving that some writers tend to be familiar with
more than one script, it might not be a bad idea to have a common
Wikipedia for all the scripts of Konkani, regardless.

When I met Jimmy Wales in New Delhi on Thursday last, he mentioned
that all of India's national languages had Wikipedias set up. On
returning back to Goa, I was disappointed that Konkani has none.
Though this is a small language, Konkani *is* one of the 22 or so
"national languages" of India. [That doesn't mean people use it across
India, but that it has enough users to be considered revant to be a
'national' priority. Konkani got included in the Eighth Schedule of
the Indian Constitution in 1987. This list defines what India's
"national languages are.]

Incidentally, I had a tough time also convincing the powers that be in
cyberspace of the need to set up a soc.culture.indian.goa Usenet
newsgroup some 3-4 years ago. It won the vote, and still continues to
be an active and closely moderated group.

In the digital world, the smaller cultures which don't have many
millions of speakers often have a tough job in making a case to get
their space under the cyber-sun, as it were. I would urge Wikipedians
to consider this request with empathy and make possible a Konkani
wikipedia going early. I will work to get a team to work in any
situation -- a script-neutral Wikipedia, or multi Wikipedias to deal
with the diverse scripts of Konkani (even if with differening levels
of activity).

Regards, Frederick Noronha, Independent Journalist, Goa, India.

On 27/08/06, Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/26/06, Frederick FN Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi, Can you please help me start a Wikipedia in a new language --
> > Konkani? It's one of the official languages of India, but one of the
> > smallest. Spoken by between 1.7 to 5.5 million (depending on whom you
> > ask) people mainly along the west coast of India. FN
> > PS: See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=knn

> According to [[en:Konkani]], there are three different writing systems
> for this language. Which one would be used?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org  9822122436 +91-832-240-9490
http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com fredericknoronha at gmail.com


from_name: Cheney Shill

subject: [WikiEN-l] WP:NPOV and images (possible policy update)

body:
Scott Stevenson <wikinetscott at gmail.com> wrote:

>Has anyone else noticed the lack of clarity on the [[Wikipedia:Neutral point
>of view]] relative to images?
>I realize it may seem like common sense but certain editors don't seem to
>understand the NPOV equally applies to images.
>Due to this fact I've begun work on an addition to NPOV policy and I was
>wondering what others thought of it.

>Please have a look here:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Netscott/NPOV_image_policy

A separate policy page is probably not needed.  It would make an excellent addition as an example page.  NPOV already is supposed to apply to all content, that seems fairly obvious in the nutshell portion, though it may be helpful to add "images" to the "includes" list.  The only other place "images" are explicitly mentioned is in the Undue Weight section.  Mentioning it in a more visible space seems like minimal instruction creep and, I agree, apparently is needed.  Removing the examples from the nutshell portion and replacing them with "ALL content" would fix that, unless NPOV is supposed to be applied selectively to content.

I had thought that "All Wikipedia articles" covered all content, but apparently "written" is taken in the most restrictive lawyer-loop-hole sense.

~~Pro-Lick
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Halliburton_Shill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pro-Lick
http://www.wikiality.net/index.php?title=User:Pro-Lick

--spam may follow--

---------------------------------
 All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.


from_name: Ligulem

body:
Simetrical wrote:
> On 8/26/06, Ligulem <ligulem at pobox.com> wrote:
>> While you guys are at it: could you make the edit summary field larger?
>> I mean extending it to right edge of the window. I always do have a
>> strong key hole viewing feeling when looking at this edit page.
>
> One-line stylesheet change: input#wpSummary { width: 80%; }.  I've had
> it in my personal CSS for a while now, and it's much better.

Cool. Exactly what I needed. Thanks a lot!


from_name: Berto

body:
Hi!

>a script-neutral Wikipedia, or multi Wikipedias to deal
> with the diverse scripts of Konkani (even if with differening levels
> of activity).

Is there any way to make an automatic coverter among the 5 scripts? It would
save you a lot of trouble.

B?rto


subject: [Wikitech-l] Teaser trailer

body:
Rob Church wrote:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mediawiki/0/09/Drafts_%28mockup%29.png

Very interesting. Fear for loosing edits is one of the driving forces
for high frequency consecutive saves.


from_name: effe iets anders

subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures

body:
Hey Gerard,

That's why I suggested to appoint an officer to do this stuff. Someone
who likes this, and who is able to put the time in it. That shouldn't
have to cost lots of foundation-time, except of the appointment an
reporting and maybe some handshaking if you meet them.

Lodewijk

2006/8/27, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>:
> Garion96 wrote:
> > On 8/26/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I agree this is an instance where chapters are very
> >> useful.  I didn't mean to imply that nothing should be
> >> sent on to the Foundation.  But if the individual
> >> editors take care of the easy ones.  And also gather a
> >> list of the exact contact info of people who requested
> >> to deal with someone official.  Well providing that
> >> list to one the commitees or something is a different
> >> proposition than asking the Foundation to gather free
> >> photos of celebrities for Wikipedia in general terms.
> >>
> >> Birgitte SB
> >>
> >
> >
> > Whether a chapter, the foundation or an officer for obtaining open content
> > material (I do like that idea) writes it doesn't matter yes. As long as it
> > looks official to the persons/companies receiving. But I also wouldn't mind
> > if the foundation itself did it, considering the (possibly legal) mess of
> > fair use images on en.wikipedia. Which is where this whole idea originated.
> >
> > Garion96
> Hoi,
> The WMF does have a lot of work and too few people to do things. When
> the Foundation is to these things as well, when do they have time to do
> their Foundation work?
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Celebrity pictures


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [Wikitech-l] References - ugh

body:
I know I've done this once before, but this one's worse:

The name Pluto was first suggested by [[Venetia Burney|Venetia Phair
(n?e Burney)]], at the time an eleven-year-old girl from [[Oxford,
England|Oxford]], [[England]].<ref>{{cite web
|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4596246.stm
|title=The girl who named a planet
|first= Paul
|last= Rincon
|publisher=BBC News
|accessdate=2006-03-05}}</ref> Venetia, who was interested in
[[Classical mythology]] as well as astronomy, suggested the name, the
Roman equivalent of [[Hades]], in a conversation to her grandfather
[[Falconer Madan]], a former [[librarian]] of [[Oxford University]]'s
[[Bodleian Library]].<ref>{{cite web
|url=http://www.amblesideonline.org/PR/PR62p030PlanetPluto.shtml
|title=The Planet 'Pluto'
|first= K.M
|last= Claxton
|publisher=Parents' Union School Diamond Jubilee Magazine, 1891-1951
(Ambleside: PUS, 1951), p. 30-32
|accessdate=2006-08-24}}</ref> Madan passed the suggestion to
Professor [[Herbert Hall Turner]], Turner then cabled the suggestion
to colleagues in America. After favourable consideration which was
almost unanimous{{fact}}, the name Pluto was officially adopted and an
announcement made by Slipher on [[1930-05-01]].

---
Can you believe that in that chunk of text, there are actually three
separate pieces of text, with two references between them? It's
totally unmanageable - attempting to actually edit the text that's
buried in there as a cohesive whole is next to impossible. Solutions
desperately wanted.

Steve


from_name: Joe Anderson

subject: [WikiEN-l] WTF Have I Missed?

body:
This article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5286458.stm) got my
concern. Editorial control on the Wikipedia? What exactly have I missed?

--
Joe Anderson

[[User:Computerjoe]] on en, fr, de, simple, Meta and Commons.


subject: [Wikitech-l] [Wikipedia-l] WikiCharts

body:
On 8/27/06, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this store data for *all* articles?  In particular, it could
> come in very handy for the question of what page to redirect an
> ambiguous term to.  Of course, you would get down to very low numbers

It'd be better to have specific data for that. Just because page X is
more popular than Y doesn't mean that people were more likely looking
for X than Y when they typed in Z.

Incidentally the results, while still very tentative, are quite
amusing: In the top 10 (not including the main page), we have List of
Gay porn stars, Sexual intercourse, Oral sex and Anal sex. Everything
else is pop culture except the topical Pluto and Kuiper belt.

*Wonders if we could get the "magic factor" reduced even further from 1000*

Steve


from_name: Aphaia

body:
Such implementation will reduce our work greatly.
Thank you for your coding in advance.

On 8/26/06, Erik Moeller <eloquence at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/25/06, effe iets anders <effeietsanders at gmail.com> wrote:
> > What are the elections for? We choose a representative. That
> > representative represents the communities. If someone is no part of
> > the communities, should it be able to vote who should represent that
> > community? It's a good question. But I don't think someone should be
> > taken away his or her right to vote when (s)he is banned from a
> > project. That would be as an additional punishment. I think it would
> > be best to state that the edits on the project you are indeinitely
> > banned from do not count. So if it was your only project, you can't
> > vote. But when you were active enough on another project as well, and
> > not banned indef there, it's ok to vote. That way it is not an
> > additional punishment, but a clearer definition of the representation.
>
> ACK. Also seems easiest to implement; Special:Boardvote only has to
> check for a local block flag.
> --
> Peace & Love,
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Kizu Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * vivemus, mea Lesbia, amemus *


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikitech-l] References - ugh

body:
--- Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> I know I've done this once before, but this one's worse:
> Can you believe that in that chunk of text, there are actually three
> separate pieces of text, with two references between them? It's
> totally unmanageable - attempting to actually edit the text that's
> buried in there as a cohesive whole is next to impossible. Solutions
> desperately wanted.

Yeah, that's bad. The detailed part of the references really should be under a 'Works cited'
subsection of the ==References== section while something like this <ref>bbc.co.uk "The Girl that
named Pluto"</ref> should be inline. The whole point of wiki syntax is to make it possible to
easily read and edit source text (unlike HTML). But having complete reference info directly inline
defeats that.

-- mav

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: jayjg

body:
On 8/27/06, Scott Stevenson <wikinetscott at gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings fellow Wikipedians,
>
> Has anyone else noticed the lack of clarity on the [[Wikipedia:Neutral point
> of view]] relative to images?

Wait a minute - is this the policy you *insisted* clearly dealt with
your claims about images, though you refused to quote the relevant
sections?

> I realize it may seem like common sense but certain editors don't seem to
> understand the NPOV equally applies to images.

Is there any way you can be convinced to stop using this list for
making false and pejorative statements about other editors?

Jay.


from_name: Kelly Martin

subject: [WikiEN-l] WTF Have I Missed?

body:
On 8/27/06, Stephen Streater <sbstreater at mac.com> wrote:
>
> So what exactly is being proposed?

Anonymous readers of an article will be displayed the most recent
revision of that article which has been marked by a trusted user as
being free of vandalism.  There may be more recent revisions, but
those will not be displayed by default; readers will have to
specifically request to see them.  A consequence of this is that edits
made by anonymous readers will not be immediately displayed as the
"primary" revision of an article.  This is being misrepresented by
some as imposing an approval requirement on such edits before they
become visible, but that's not what it is; such edits are immediately
visible as they are now, just not as the primary version which is
displayed by default to anonymous readers.

I, personally, see this as a great benefit to the vast bulk of our
customers: the chances that Joe Q. Public will go to an article he
found by a Google search and be confronted by unexpected penis go WAY
down with this approach.

Kelly