from_name: Krzysztof Kowalczyk

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rewards for developers

body:
On 26 Jul 2004 19:20:00 +0200, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Your problem is that you seem to be unable to differentiate between
> different kinds of systems and different types of success and failure.

Now you're making me more stupid that I really am. I think I've made
it clear that every project (CoSource, Gnome, Free Software Bazar) we
discussed was slightly different.

Makes little difference: they all failed in the end.

> Most importantly, you cannot equate a competitive bounty system, or a
> business-oriented market like SourceExchange,  with a call for tenders
> that allows for different types of contractual agreements between the
> Foundation and its existing team of developers, with a technically
> competent steering committee that prepares the CfT, and with an
> application period within which volunteers can step forward. These are
> totally different things and acknowledging that difference would be a
> great step forward.

I do acknowledge that. You brought those examples, not me. I just
showed that they all failed.

If you think those examples are not relevent to the discussion, why do
you bring them up?

> Looking at history is a good idea only if you're actually willing to make
> an effort to understand it, instead of just using it to justify your
> preconceived notions about reality.

Ad hominem attack.

> > GNOME bounty resulted in fixing 11 bugs
> > (http://www.gnome.org/bounties/Winners.html).
>
> Um, no, these weren't bugs but features, some of them quite significant.
>
> > That's for a system that has around 700 new bugs opened weekly and as
> > much bugs fixed
>
> Again, you do not seem to understand the difference between bugs and
> features. The bounties were largely on significant features or changed
> application behavior. To compare something like Gaim/evolution identity
> integration with something like "combobox list mode doesn't support
> scrolling" is simply ignorant.

Thank you again for calling me names. That's really ok, I don't mind.
I do mind twisting the reality.

Gnome uses bug tracking system. A single "bug" can track a defect
(i.e. what we also sometimes call a bug, hence the confusion) or a
feature request.

I understand those differences - I was simply using Gnome terminology.
They link each bounty to a "bug" i.e. a single entry in bug tracking
database.

> > Do you consider that a sucess?
>
> I consider 11 completed tasks a success, yes, even though the specific
> model used by GNOME isn't the one I would recommend for Wikimedia (and I
> wouldn't be surprised if most GNOME developers have never even heard about
> the bounty system).

Well, and there's a difference between us.

I don't consider a bounty system whose result was fixing 11 out of 43
bugs over 4 month period (and I'm really gracious here, attributing
all the fixes to the bounty) while at the same time regular
development brought estimated 600*4*4=9600 bug fixes (again, to be
gracious I tone down my numbers here) to be a success.

And that's the closest thing you'll ever get to what wiki foundation
can do. It was an official thing, sponsored by Gnome foundation, they
obviously put effort into nominating bounty bugs, prepared nice web
pages, had irc channel for discussion, had clear rules and I don't
think they failed to evangelize this as much as they could.

They did try. And the result was simply dismal.

What can you possibly do better in wikipedia foundation case (except
buying ad during superbowl) ?

> An open bounty offer that is not taken up doesn't cost anyone anything.

It does cost the time and effort for preparing the bounty and managing
the system.

And finally, that's not the point. It doesn't make sense to have a
bounty system that doesn't work, even if it doesn't cost much. What
we're trying to figure out is if bounty systems are a good way to
improve wikimedia software.

And though you've made it clear that all past failures don't really
matter a single bit because, well, we're all different and this time
we'll do it right, I'll repeat: all past (several) attempts at bounty
systems were failures. Draw your own conclusions.

Krzysztof Kowalczyk | http://blog.kowalczyk.info


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Ricky Beam

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: HP Hardware donation

body:
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, Anthere wrote:
>It seems that fedex is only making boat shipping above 70 kg.
>By plane, 50 kg is 500 euros.

Might I suggest "air cargo"?  Many airlines will handle cargo as well.
Someone has to pack and deliver the item to the cargo dock and then
pick it up at the receiving dock.  This is a little more complicated
when crossing borders -- it has to go though customs which most carriers
(fedex, ups, dhl) handle (and add into your bill.)

As I've said before, shipping these beasts to the US is a Bad Idea(tm).
They'll do more good for less cash if they stayed in Europe.  (And,
honestly, none of those machines are worth the cost of shipping them
to FL USA.) [Unless someone is donating the shipping, too.]

--Ricky


subject: [Wikitech-l] New servers for wikipedia

body:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004, Bill Clark wrote:
>Remote serial consoles allow access to the systems during boot, but
>might not be supported by the BIOS.  I think this is worth looking
>into, since the APC power switches aren't much use in diagnosing a
>machine that hangs during boot.

We've discussed this several times before... most, if not all, of the
servers in the farm are capable of BIOS redirection.. the BIOS is
displayed on screen and to a serial port at the same time.  GRUB supports
serial terminals on it's own.

(I use these things everyday on my own machines.)

--Ricky


from_name: Bill Clark

subject: [Wikitech-l] New servers for wikipedia

body:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:49:19 -0400 (EDT), Ricky Beam
<jfbeam at bluetronic.net> wrote:
> We've discussed this several times before... most, if not all, of the
> servers in the farm are capable of BIOS redirection.. the BIOS is
> displayed on screen and to a serial port at the same time.  GRUB supports
> serial terminals on it's own.

I'm not sure whether you're saying it's already in use, or whether
it's just been discussed.  The page at the link Shaihulud provided
implied that serial consoles weren't being used (and actually seemed
unaware that they even exist).

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Q3_and_Q4_2004_hardware_order_worksheet#Quick_proposal

-Bill Clark


list: wikien-l

from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] "The Register" is making fun of us

body:
"Yes, please.  Coordinating responses to press about us is an excellent
idea.  I
shuddered a bit myself when I saw those responses, and when I saw someone on
IRC (Raul?) write that they had sent a followup to the second Register
piece."

I confess, I did send a reply to the second one. Nothing shrill or angry
(not my style),
I just simply pointed out three places where their second story was
factually inaccurate.
I made sure not to draw any conclusions either - nothing that would give
them fodder
for a third story. I did link to [[m:Category:humor]], so unless they want
to run a story
about the seemy IRC underside of Wikipedia (based on the raunchy quotes on
the
quotes list), I don't anticipate a problem.

--Mark


subject: [Wikitech-l] New servers for wikipedia

body:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004, Bill Clark wrote:
>I'm not sure whether you're saying it's already in use, or whether
>it's just been discussed.

It was only discussed as Jimbo ran off to Europe before ordering a console
switch.

--Ricky


subject: [Wikitech-l] New servers for wikipedia

body:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004, Camille Constans wrote:
>As buying new servers seems to take a long time, here's a quick proposal. Of course we can buy more servers later. It's just an 'emergency' proposal :)
>
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Q3_and_Q4_2004_hardware_order_worksheet#Quick_proposal

Note: Fibre Channel gear will be Very Expensive (tm).  Don't expect people
to be lining up to donate FC hardware. (At least not FC-2 hardware, the 2GB
stuff.)

--Ricky


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards for developers

references:
<7ce338ad04072517222127d206@mail.gmail.com>	<9DcMcqSSpVB@erik_moeller>	<4104A333.2010007@yahoo.com>
	<ce2kpr$g3d$4@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Erik, I tried the little attribution thingy for when we do not write
>> from cpov.
>> Look what happened :-)
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Developer_payment&curid=9457&diff=50349&oldid=50347
>
>
>
> Oh, sorry. I wasn't supposed to remove that? :)
>
> I guess I should have checked who it was from. I wouldn't have thought
> that *you* wrote it. It looked like an attack on you (personally, I
> found the "sigh" to sound like "oh no, not another one of Anthere's
> silly ideas").
>
> If you want, put it back in.
>
> Timwi

ROFL

No :-)

It was an attempt to follow some principles suggested, which were that
when starting a discussion at first person on meta, we should identify
ourselves to avoid confusion with community point of view :-)

Well, I made progress in 2 years. I am always loggued in now, and
sometimes I even sign :-)


from_name: Camille Constans

subject: [Wikitech-l] New servers for wikipedia

body:
As buying new servers seems to take a long time, here's a quick proposal. Of course we can buy more servers later. It's just an 'emergency' proposal :)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Q3_and_Q4_2004_hardware_order_worksheet#Quick_proposal

Shaihulud


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards for developers

body:
Frithjof Engel wrote:

> I think this will lead to worse software, because it shifts the focus from
> "writing good software" to "making money/win the game". There have been
> several studies in the past on this topic:
>
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

This is well-known study, but it has a week point.

They state, "Creativity and intrinsic interest diminish if task is done
for gain" but actually the only things they can compare are
* people doing open software for fun and entertainment; and
* people who are employees and have to develop the uninteresting parts
of software as part of their job.

The study does not take into account the possibility of "paid
volunteers", because there have been few such systems in the past.

If someone wants to do uninteresting programming for money, they can get
a better pay at a real job. A Bazaar-like system like the one I'm
proposing is different: payment provides motivation to get involved, but
developers would still be working on the things they personally find
interesting. Hence, I believe, "creativity and intrinsic interest" will
be preserved.

Timwi


from_name: Sj

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 54

body:
Super.  Please link drafts to/from [[m:PR department]].    =Sj=

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:41:29 -0700 (PDT), Dan Miller <meelar2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'll join. As WP grows, we need to get on this type of
> thing--almost all large organizations do it, and it's
> important to manage perceptions. I'll start setting up
> a draft page in my userspace, and get up a letter to
> the Register as well.
>
> Meelar


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: "The Register" is making fun of us

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> It would have been better to reply with mild explanations of how our
> Buckminster Fuller article wasn't really a "plug" for Drexler than to
> issue a shrill denunciation or (shudder) to loft an f-word at them.

In all likelihood, someone did. Don't forget that it was them who chose
which ones of the received e-mails to publish.

Timwi


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Rewards

body:
Upon reading other people comments, I think that we
might have a dual solution for developers reward,
which could be at the same time
* just a thank you note
* a mean to help them get a job, or just more traffic
on a site they like
* potentially, some money

As suggested in meta, first we could set a page on the
wikimediafoundation website.

This page would be a list of all developers involved
in wikimedia technical matters (if they want to be
there *of course*).

Each developer name could be along with a short bio
(or link to a personal website), and description of
their most relevant activity in wikimedia as
developers (everyday hardware maintenance, bug
correction, mailing list handling, performance issues,
  software development, liaison with board etc...).

Each developer could put here a proeminant link for
donations (paypal system).

=> This would help for developers development
recognition (as many development activities are just
invisible to most editors), and give them opportunity
to advertise this for ousiders. They might also get
some donations from editors who appreciate their

Second, once a year, we could have a couple of special
awards for developers. I was thinking of for example :
* award for hardware maintenance or improvement
* award for software development
* special award to thank a special dedication to some
features recommanded by the board.

These awards could be heavily advertised and of
course, proeminently announced on the
wikimediafoundation website. They might also result in
a little gift (such as money or hardware for example).
Hardware gifts might be gifts offered to the
foundation by hardware corporations.

It might be nice that this is the opportunity to thank
people who put a lot of time in some activities, which
are not very visible.

What do you think ???

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Rewards


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Fennec Foxen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] main page

body:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:24:12 +0200, Zeberko <wanda at poczta.zicom.pl> wrote:
> Hi, everyone. I have a suggestion, why don't we change the Wikipedia main
> page?
This is best discussed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_page,
not here. :)

I ask you- why change the main page? The one we have works well.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] main page

body:
That's pretty sexy, Zeberko, but it needs work - compatibility of the
table formatting across browsers, better distribution of the current
navbar links.  Please do participate in some of the design discussions
on [[w:en:Talk:Main Page]] (and elsewhere, right?  where are the other
new proposed designs?); there are some good designers in the WP wings
who might be happy to work with you.  ~sj~

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:24:12 +0200, Zeberko <wanda at poczta.zicom.pl> wrote:
> Hi, everyone. I have a suggestion, why don't we change the Wikipedia main
> page?
> Here is a project prepared by me. Of course I'm not an expert webmaster and
> that's why it looks as it does, but I'd like you to take a look at it from a
> graphic design point of view. Personally, I think it's OK and much better
> than the present main page.
> Of course it's in Polish now but I (or somebody else) can easily prepare an
> English version and others can make their own language versions.
> Greetings
> Agni
> www.serwis.tarnow.cc/wikip.htm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
  :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]
+sj+


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: template for translating interface?

body:
Pierre Abbat wrote:

> Some time ago I grabbed LanguagePt.php and translated part of it into Lojban.
> This was before templates and categories, so I need to update it. I'd like to
> start over with an English template, but LanguageEn.php just has an include
> statement, and Language.php says not to use it as a template. What should I
> use?

LanguagePt.php? ;-)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Rewards

body:
Upon reading other people comments, I think that we
might have a dual solution for developers reward,
which could be at the same time
* just a thank you note
* a mean to help them get a job, or just more traffic
on a site they like
* potentially, some money

As suggested in meta, first we could set a page on the
wikimediafoundation website.

This page would be a list of all developers involved
in wikimedia technical matters (if they want to be
there *of course*).

Each developer name could be along with a short bio
(or link to a personal website), and description of
their most relevant activity in wikimedia as
developers (everyday hardware maintenance, bug
correction, mailing list handling, performance issues,
  software development, liaison with board etc...).

Each developer could put here a proeminant link for
donations (paypal system).

=> This would help for developers development
recognition (as many development activities are just
invisible to most editors), and give them opportunity
to advertise this for ousiders. They might also get
some donations from editors who appreciate their

Second, once a year, we could have a couple of special
awards for developers. I was thinking of for example :
* award for hardware maintenance or improvement
* award for software development
* special award to thank a special dedication to some
features recommanded by the board.

These awards could be heavily advertised and of
course, proeminently announced on the
wikimediafoundation website. They might also result in
a little gift (such as money or hardware for example).
Hardware gifts might be gifts offered to the
foundation by hardware corporations.

It might be nice that this is the opportunity to thank
people who put a lot of time in some activities, which
are not very visible.

What do you think ???

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Austin Hair

subject: [Wikipedia-l] main page

body:
> www.serwis.tarnow.cc/wikip.htm

I haven't looked at this in a graphical browser, but I imagine it's very
slick and eye-catching -- kudos.  Unfortunately, I see that it's legacy
HTML 4.0 markup, rife with tables and <FONT> tags, and thus compatible
with neither our skinning system nor our Web design philosophies.

I don't have anything whatever to do with the design of the current
site, but speaking as a user with rather strong personal opinions I'm
inclined to reject it out of hand.  That being said, perhaps it can be
reworked in XHTML 1.1 and CSS with the help of our current team of very
capable Webmonkeys, at which point I think everyone would be receptive
to reconsideration.

--
Austin D. Hair <austin at austinhair.org>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Callidus
http://www.austinhair.org/
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Patent nonsense proposal

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> user_Jamesday wrote:
>
>>We do need to recognise that these are the formats people have. And
>>recognise that, however much we may like it, Windows 95 may not have
>>support for Ogg.
>
>
> Windows 95 supports Ogg just fine.  All the major players that people
> could be using in Windows 95 support Ogg.

I wonder if, in an understandable effort to emphasise the importance of
free software, you have overplayed how easy it is easy to get Ogg
working in Windows. As I understand it for the usual players:

Windows Media Player : You can download a plugin from an unofficial site

Apple Quicktime: You can download a plugin from an unofficial site

Real Networks Real Player: Our article states they announced support
in 2002, but my version doesn't have it and I can't find any
confirmation that the next version has it (version 10)

Winamp (unfornuately from our view point this is not as popular as it
was): Out-of-the-box support

Given that no other major website forces you to play OGG, most users
would not have downloaded these plugins. They would have to download
them specifically for Wikipedia.

The question is: Is forcing them to do this a big deal? You appear to
say no it isn't. I would disagree and say yes it IS a big deal. Many,
many web users CAN NOT update software on their computer (virtually
anyone on a locally managed network: school, library, office, cybercafe
etc) because they do not have the rights to do so. Only home users would.

Note: we bend over backwards to support all major browsers (minimizing
JavaScript etc) because most people cannot change their browser. Yet
when we come to sound, we are changing tack.

Whether this consideration is sufficiently strong in order for us to
consider allowing other formats, I'm not sure. But it is worth bearing
in mind before going GNUng-ho into going ogg-only.

Pete


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] template for translating interface

body:
Pierre Abbat wrote:
> Where is the template for translating the interface into a new language? I
> looked at LanguageEn.php and Language.php, but LanguageEn.php is just an
> include statement, and Language.php says not to use it as a template.

There is no template. Look at the other files for examples.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Pierre Abbat

body:
On Monday 26 July 2004 10:42, Timwi wrote:
> Pierre Abbat wrote:
> > Some time ago I grabbed LanguagePt.php and translated part of it into
> > Lojban. This was before templates and categories, so I need to update it.
> > I'd like to start over with an English template, but LanguageEn.php just
> > has an include statement, and Language.php says not to use it as a
> > template. What should I use?
>
> LanguagePt.php? ;-)

No, I want the template, not a possibly out-of-date translation. I don't think
most Lojbanists know Portuguese (I don't know how to translate all the
interface into Lojban, so I'll do enough to start).

phma
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: __ADDSEC__ keyword - A new (unfinished) feature

body:
now all thats needed it someone to pice the rest of the code togather;=)

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:31:29 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Aevar, I like it.  I've often thought that many non-article pages need
> one of those links... ~~sj~~
>
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:57:57 +0000, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason
>
>
> <avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Because sometimes thats just not feasable, In tha case of the village
> > pump for example the talk page is where people talk about the actual
> > chat page, it's layout and such. There is a need for this because
> > people already have "Add to this conversation" links all over the
> > place and this would just provide a standard way to let people do this
> > on all pages.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:06:12 +0200, Ashar Voultoiz <thoane at altern.org> wrote:
> > > ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
> > > > I thought of a neat feature today while browsing the Village pump,
> > > > pages in all talk namespaces have a neat + link besides the Edit link
> > > > so you can add a new section to it, so i thought it would be nice for
> > > > things like the Village pump to be able to have that link added with a
> > > > keyword to every page that had that keyword in the wikitext. I named
> > > > that keyword ADDSEC for "add section" and it's invoked with
> > > > __ADDSEC__.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Why not moving that talk page to the talk namespace ?
> > >
> > > Aka : [[Talk:Village pump]] instead of [[Village pump]] :o)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ashar Voultoiz
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
> --
> --:-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]
> +sj+
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Anousak

subject: [Foundation-l] New language: Lao Wikipedia

body:
Hi All,

I am Anousak Souphavanh, am the lead for Lao Open Source projects:
OpenOffice, KDE, and phpnuke. My team and I would like to participate in
translating Wikipedia to Lao language. Lao is language of Laos, a landlocked
country located in Southeast Asia. A language that spoken by at least 30
million people within Laos, northeastern Thailand, and southern China. I am
not certain whether there is a request to create Lao Wikipedia or not.
Anyhow, I would like to request to create Lao (lo) Wikipedia. Also, let me
know if I required to have an id/password or not in order submit files, cvs
that is.

Thanks in advance.

Anousak


from_name: Frithjof Engel

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards for developers

body:
On 26.07.2004 15:03:52 +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Frithjof Engel wrote:
>
> >I think this will lead to worse software, because it shifts the focus from
> >"writing good software" to "making money/win the game". There have been
> >several studies in the past on this topic:
> >
> >http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html
>
> This is well-known study, but it has a week point.
>
> They state, "Creativity and intrinsic interest diminish if task is done
> for gain" but actually the only things they can compare are
> * people doing open software for fun and entertainment; and
> * people who are employees and have to develop the uninteresting parts
> of software as part of their job.

They compare groups of people doing exactly the same work.

> The study does not take into account the possibility of "paid
> volunteers", because there have been few such systems in the past.

The reason for that is that it would not work. You either work because
of the money you earn or because of the fun you have. There is no middle-way
IMHO.
Imagine you want to do something for a specific project, you look at the
TODO-list and evaluate each task by considering different aspects like
the time you want to invest, your interest in that topic, your skills, etc.
When TODO list suddenly start to offer money for a specific task, people would
change the priorities regarding the task, see the following:

Ordinary TODO list:
* Fix bug that the app cannot handle filenames longer than 255 chars
* Fix memory leaks when editing file
* Implement an export feature

Reward-driven TODO list:
* 1$ For fixing bug that the app cannot handle filenames longer than 255 chars
* 2$ Fix memory leaks when editing file
* Implement an export feature

Don't you immediately start to evaluate the tasks based on the money you can
make? Your interest for developing shifts automagically.

> If someone wants to do uninteresting programming for money, they can get
> a better pay at a real job.

ACK

> A Bazaar-like system like the one I'm
> proposing is different: payment provides motivation to get involved, but
> developers would still be working on the things they personally find
> interesting.

As hard as it sounds, but I think bringing in payments would corrupt the
whole development process.

> Hence, I believe, "creativity and intrinsic interest" will
> be preserved.

I don't :)

Frithjof


subject: [Wikitech-l] Rewards for developers

body:
When developers are rewarded, one option would be to pay for the jobs that do not get done, the donkey work.  The tidying up of code, operational procedures, conversions could be for money. However, these are often considered to be the best bits for breaking in new programmers to the environment. So it would be a mixed blessing.

The sexy stuff like new features would remain as it is.

Thanks,
  GerardM

gzip, chunked, identity, trailers


from_name: tic at tictric.net

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards for developers

body:
Am Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:03:52 +0100 hat Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> geschrieben:

> Frithjof Engel wrote:
>
>> I think this will lead to worse software, because it shifts the focus
>> from "writing good software" to "making money/win the game". There have
>> been several studies in the past on this topic:
>>  http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html
>
> This is well-known study, but it has a week point.
>
> They state, "Creativity and intrinsic interest diminish if task is done
> for gain" but actually the only things they can compare are
> * people doing open software for fun and entertainment; and
> * people who are employees and have to develop the uninteresting parts
> of software as part of their job.
>
> The study does not take into account the possibility of "paid
> volunteers", because there have been few such systems in the past.

Sadly, I don't know much about programming and so my question may appear
"stupid",
but what sort of contract are you going to make with a "paid volunteer"?

What sort of quality can be guaranteed by that sort of job?

Does one have to prove his abilities before taking on the job?

If one does a coding job out of his/her own motivation it might be buggy
and the code is going to be revised.
Any found bugs are going to be corrected by the ones caring most.

Will the rewarded developer only be rewarded after there is no bugs found
anymore? Or at least not for the past two weeks?

But when you say you pay him like an artist (and some programmers if not
many are artists indeed) is he responsible for his mistakes? Is it the job
of "unrewarded volunteers" to correct bugs?

I can imagine it's a good idea to have that bounty thing when you do
commercial open source programming. So you can get something done for some
money. But with a free project accomplished by a somewhat enthusiastic
community it's going to be difficult.

Are you going to "reward" writers for badly needed articles on wikipedia
too later on? Or the ones that try to preserve a certain level of quality
of the articles?

I got the impression that any voluntary work on a project like wikipedia
is going to cause a lot of discord and distrust.
With a project like say kde or gnome on the other hand I think it could be
handled better and might be pretty useful.

Hmm, I might change my mind in the not too distant future but at the
moment that's my two cents.

--manfred

>
> If someone wants to do uninteresting programming for money, they can get
> a better pay at a real job. A Bazaar-like system like the one I'm
> proposing is different: payment provides motivation to get involved, but
> developers would still be working on the things they personally find
> interesting. Hence, I believe, "creativity and intrinsic interest" will
> be preserved.
>
> Timwi


from_name: Vít Zvánovec

subject: [Wikitech-l] LanguageCs.php

body:
	Dear colleagues,

== LanguageCs.php ==
1. Could anybody change these variables in the living copy of
LanguageCs.php?

# There are no month abbreviations in Czech language.
/* private */ $wgMonthAbbreviationsCs = array("1.", "2.", "3.",
"4.", "5.", "6.", "7.", "8.", "9.", "10.", "11.", "12.");

# Czech ISBN servers
/* private */ $wgBookstoreListCs = array(
"N?rodn? knihovna" =>
"http://sigma.nkp.cz/F/?func=find-
a&find_code=WRD&request=&request_op=AND&find_code=WAU&request=&request
_op=AND&find_code=WTL&request=&request_op=AND&find_code=WYR&
request=&request_op=AND&find_code=WPB&request=&request_op=AND&find_cod
e=ISN&request=$1");

2. How to force caching of special pages in :cs? There is currently
no cached page at all.
3. The upload log file is missing.
4. To translate namespace Category into Kategorie. But there is
a lot of category pages in cs:, therefore they should be
automatically changed from [[Category:]] into [[Kategorie:]].
5. Wikipedie:Co je ?l?nek can't be deleted.
6. Would it be useful to transfer All system messages in MediaWiki of
LanguageCs.php into the living copy of LanguageCs.php? Approximately
half of all messages is in MediaWiki which may slow down perfomance.

== Rendering of layout (presumable Standard) ==
1. There is too much space between end of an external link and non-
space characters. For instance: [http://aa.bb.cc First]. is shown as
"First .", not as "First.".
2. All system messages (HTML) should have only 2 columns,
because there is no difference between Default text and Current text.
3. List of users (special pages) should distinguish between users
with their own pages (blue links) and without them (red links).

			Yours sincerely,
					V?t Zv?novec, bureaucrat of :cs


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rewards for developers

body:
Krzysztof-
> * there are better ways to improve mediawiki project

There are many ways to improve MediaWiki, and there's no reason for them
not to coexist.

> * bounty systems have been tried and failed, either miserably
> (producing nothing) or just plain failed (dind't produce expected or
> eve significant improvements, the word "significant" being the key)

This is simply false, as improvements such as "Gaim/addressbook identity
integration" (a $2500 bounty) are certainly significant, see
http://www.gnome.org/bounties/Winners.html, Timwi probably could give
similar examples for LiveJournal development. CoSource, before it was shut
down, had over 350 requests with a total value of $180K. It was not an
open bidding process, instead the CoSource company hired a Russian
programmer to complete requests (a total of over 20 proposals were
implemented). SourceExchange is not even close to what we have in mind
here. An example for a bounty-style system (again not identical to what
has been proposed) that is quite successful is Google Answers
(answers.google.com).

Your problem is that you seem to be unable to differentiate between
different kinds of systems and different types of success and failure.
Once you see money + open source, your mind switches into "FAILURE!
FAILURE! FAILURE!" mode and rational arguments become irrelevant. The
project *has* to have been a failure because otherwise you might have to
acknowledge that bringing money and open source together might not be such
a bad idea after all.

Most importantly, you cannot equate a competitive bounty system, or a
business-oriented market like SourceExchange,  with a call for tenders
that allows for different types of contractual agreements between the
Foundation and its existing team of developers, with a technically
competent steering committee that prepares the CfT, and with an
application period within which volunteers can step forward. These are
totally different things and acknowledging that difference would be a
great step forward.

> Whatever your opinion is on why they failed, the only objective
> evidence we have is that they failed.

No, that is not "the only objective evidence", and that is exactly the
problem. You are ignoring that the FSB was a static HTML website
maintained by one individual who lost interest. You are ignoring that
CoSource was a dot-com which crashed because its business value was far
smaller than its investments, and that its working model was vastly
different from what has been proposed for Wikimedia, etc. etc.

Looking at history is a good idea only if you're actually willing to make
an effort to understand it, instead of just using it to justify your
preconceived notions about reality. Only if we have some understanding for
the *reasons* these projects were discontinued or failed we can decide
whether there are any valuable lessons to be learned for our own
experiment.

Your attitude seems to be: "Oh, some bounty systems failed, so this is
going to fail, even though it's completely different, and the reasons the
other projects failed are completely irrelevant to what you are trying to
do." There's a name for that attitude. It's called FUD. What are you so
afraid of?

> Free Software Bazaar: "few dozen projects were completed, mostly for
> about $50, one for $1,000". And they're gone. Again, hardly an example
> of success.

18 completed projects - roughly the same amount as CoSource, without a
single dollar of venture capital and maintained by a single individual
with a text editor and a telephone (used for confirming identities) - are
hardly an example of failure either. There was clearly a lot of interest
in Axel's project, but the implementation was lacking. We are not trying
to implement a generic market for open source projects here, we are not
even trying to implement a Wikimedia bounty system, we are trying to
complement the existing development process with a controlled tender
procedure.

> GNOME bounty resulted in fixing 11 bugs
> (http://www.gnome.org/bounties/Winners.html).

Um, no, these weren't bugs but features, some of them quite significant.

> That's for a system that has around 700 new bugs opened weekly and as
> much bugs fixed

Again, you do not seem to understand the difference between bugs and
features. The bounties were largely on significant features or changed
application behavior. To compare something like Gaim/evolution identity
integration with something like "combobox list mode doesn't support
scrolling" is simply ignorant.

> Do you consider that a sucess?

I consider 11 completed tasks a success, yes, even though the specific
model used by GNOME isn't the one I would recommend for Wikimedia (and I
wouldn't be surprised if most GNOME developers have never even heard about
the bounty system). An open bounty offer that is not taken up doesn't cost
anyone anything. You can keep a bounty open for a year or two and hope
that - as it did in 11 cases for the GNOME project - it will steer and
accelerate development in the right direction.

> What evidence there is that bounty system work *well* ?

I have never claimed that there is evidence that the described development
model - call for tenders - will work well. I claim that there is no
evidence that it won't, that your claims of prior failure are not
applicable and also exaggerated, and that it is worth a try to give the
Wikimedia Foundation and its members a voice in the development of the
software which powers all Wikimedia websites, as well as rewarding the
developers who have and continue to spend so much time on the project.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Where is the template for translating the interface into a new language? I
looked at LanguageEn.php and Language.php, but LanguageEn.php is just an
include statement, and Language.php says not to use it as a template.

phma
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa


from_name: Zeberko

subject: [Wikipedia-l] main page

body:
Hi, everyone. I have a suggestion, why don't we change the Wikipedia main
page?
Here is a project prepared by me. Of course I'm not an expert webmaster and
that's why it looks as it does, but I'd like you to take a look at it from a
graphic design point of view. Personally, I think it's OK and much better
than the present main page.
Of course it's in Polish now but I (or somebody else) can easily prepare an
English version and others can make their own language versions.
Greetings
Agni
www.serwis.tarnow.cc/wikip.htm


from_name: Keith Maxwell

subject: [WikiEN-l] IP blocks

body:
Folks,

I have an IP address 203.166.96.239 with an IP address that has been recently and consistently used for vandalism and has been banned for successive 24 hours by first Dysprosia and then Davidcannon. I am sure that these decisions were fair and reasonable: however I would like some information on the track record of the vandalism and the addresses so I can take it up with my ISP.

Alternatively, would the problem end if I changed my ISP.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Regards

Keith

---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
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from_name: Dori

body:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:15:44 +0100, Pete/Pcb21
<pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com> wrote:
snip
> The question is: Is forcing them to do this a big deal? You appear to
> say no it isn't. I would disagree and say yes it IS a big deal. Many,
> many web users CAN NOT update software on their computer (virtually
> anyone on a locally managed network: school, library, office, cybercafe
> etc) because they do not have the rights to do so. Only home users would.

No the question is, do we inconvenience Windows users to download a
legal and free plugin, or do we force FOSS users get illegal/pay
software?

> Note: we bend over backwards to support all major browsers (minimizing
> JavaScript etc) because most people cannot change their browser. Yet
> when we come to sound, we are changing tack.

Do we force people to pay for content or have them view it illegally
(well maybe we do when it comes to fair use, but that's a different
argument)?

> Whether this consideration is sufficiently strong in order for us to
> consider allowing other formats, I'm not sure. But it is worth bearing
> in mind before going GNUng-ho into going ogg-only.

We're not GNUng-ho for the sake of being GNUng-ho, there actually are
some sound reasons behind it (like the whole GFDL concept vs
copyrighting everything ala Britannica). Do we want to impose a
DVD/CSS style hassle on our users?

--
[[en:User:Dori]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Best connections re mulitple sites

body:
I spoke a friend of mine who is in International Data Traffic.

I asked about the connectivity of Paris, London, Amsterdam.

Paris and Amsterdam are with Frankfurt and Stockholm on a par. London is on the end of the backbone. Paris is great for North and Middle Africa (superior to US) South Africa Paris is equal with US. Frankfurt is best for Eastern Europe but the difference with Paris is minimal.

I think the colo was to be Paris ?  Great !!
GerardM


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: main page

body:
Hi.

A feeling > each project may feel better having its own design... though
we all are influenced by other projects time

I have a suggestion Zeberko
We have a new site main page design to create. The foundation website.

We were thinking of making a contest for our common website. Would you
feel interested ?

ant

Zeberko wrote:
> Hi, everyone. I have a suggestion, why don't we change the Wikipedia main
> page?
> Here is a project prepared by me. Of course I'm not an expert webmaster and
> that's why it looks as it does, but I'd like you to take a look at it from a
> graphic design point of view. Personally, I think it's OK and much better
> than the present main page.
> Of course it's in Polish now but I (or somebody else) can easily prepare an
> English version and others can make their own language versions.
> Greetings
> Agni
> www.serwis.tarnow.cc/wikip.htm


from_name: Marco Krohn

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rewards for developers

body:
On Monday 26 July 2004 19:20, Erik Moeller wrote:

> > GNOME bounty resulted in fixing 11 bugs
> > (http://www.gnome.org/bounties/Winners.html).
>
> Um, no, these weren't bugs but features, some of them quite significant.
>
> > That's for a system that has around 700 new bugs opened weekly and as
> > much bugs fixed
>
> Again, you do not seem to understand the difference between bugs and
> features. The bounties were largely on significant features or changed
> application behavior. To compare something like Gaim/evolution identity
> integration with something like "combobox list mode doesn't support
> scrolling" is simply ignorant.

come on Erik. While the number of bugs indeed is higher than the number of
opened/closed features it doesn't make the failure much smaller. Just check

http://bugs.kde.org/weekly-bug-summary.cgi

(yes, this is KDE, but for GNOME it won't be much different) - 133 wishes
opened, 185 wishes closed per week(!). And they fulfilled 11(!) features in 6
(!) months - that's hardly something I would call successfull.

I don't see any reason why developers should get money for implementing
features while Wikipedia contributers won't get anything for their time and
hard work. This doesn't sound fair to me. IMHO the money is much better spent
on hardware.

best regards,
  Marco


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language: Lao Wikipedia

body:
Anousak wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am Anousak Souphavanh, am the lead for Lao Open Source projects:
> OpenOffice, KDE, and phpnuke. My team and I would like to participate in
> translating Wikipedia to Lao language. Lao is language of Laos, a landlocked
> country located in Southeast Asia. A language that spoken by at least 30
> million people within Laos, northeastern Thailand, and southern China. I am
> not certain whether there is a request to create Lao Wikipedia or not.
> Anyhow, I would like to request to create Lao (lo) Wikipedia. Also, let me
> know if I required to have an id/password or not in order submit files, cvs
> that is.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Anousak

The not used Wiki for Lao exist already;
http://lo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

You can ask to become a sysop and bureaucrat for that wiki at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_permissions

So you can translate the site.
http://lo.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Allmessages&ot=html

The wiki is using UTF-8.

--
[[wikipedia:nl:gebruiker:walter]]


from_name: Harry Smith

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Current Events July 23rd 2004. Zero0000 abusing admin
	privs

body:
I need your help.  Zero0000 is insisting upon a
verison of events that is based upon a single report
in AFP. The BBC, NYT, HaAretz, INN all disagree with
Zero0000's version.  This is detailed in a table on
[[Talk:Current Events]].  Zero0000 is also
insisting, that a different article in HaAretz is a
retraction of an earlier one...there is  no indication
of such in the article itself. While that article
details other deaths in this horrible conflict,
nowhere does it discuss the incident of Hassan Zaanin.

Zero0000's version:
* An 18-year-old [[Palestinian]], Hassan Zaanin, is
shot dead in Beit Hanoun in the [[Gaza Strip]] when
heand his familiy attempt to stop Palestinian gunmen
from planting an anti-tank explosive outside their
house.[http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/455715.html
(Haaretz)]
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
 (BBC)]

My version:
* [[Palestinian terrorism|Palestinian terrorist]]s
of the [[Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades]] an armed branch
of
[[Yasser Arafat]]'s [[Fatah]] organization,
[[murder]] 16-year-old [[Palestinian]] Hassan
Al-Za'nin and shoot several members of his family,
when the family refuses to allow the terrorists to use
the Al-Za'nin property as a [[Qassam rocket]] launch
site.
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
(BBC)]
[http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/23/international/middleeast/23CND-MIDE.html?hp
(NYT)]
[http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=66197 (INN)]
[http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/455377.html
(HaAretz)]

To prevent me from insisting that the more common
version be used, he is blocking IP addresses that I
use.  Please help in preventing Zero0000 from doing
this.

Sincerely,
Lance6Wins

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Scarcity of Uncle Ed

body:
I have been asked to avoid further personal use of the Internet at work,
and I don't have a high-speed line at home. So, you won't be seeing much
of Uncle Ed at the Wikipedia website for the indefinite future.

I will continue to administer the English Wikipedia mailing list. And
post my usual trenchant commentary...

I'll pop in from time to time at the website, but it will be irregular
and sporadic.

I'm still going to the Boston meeting this Saturday, of course. :-)

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed


subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiEN-l administrator replacement

body:
Oops! I guess I misunderstood. I thought the recent posts about a new
WikiEN-l administrator referred to the International list, rather than
the English list. You know, the "l" looks like an "I"...

I just tried to log in as administrator but found the old password
didn't work. So I guess that means I've been replaced.

(A private e-mail to me, informing me of this, would have been nice.)

Ed Poor


from_name: zero 0000

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Current Events July 23rd 2004. Zero0000 abusing
	admin privs

body:
"Harry Smith" is a far-right-wing fanatic who has been a menace
for quite a while under various guises (earlier "OneVoice" and
for the past few months anon IPs).  I think there is something
wrong with him as his behavior is very bizarre and obsessive.

Viajero listed him at Requests for Arbitration not long ago.
In recent times, protecting Wikipedia from him has become quite
a chore and I don't know why my little available time has to be
so occupied when I would much prefer to be writing articles.
So I started to block him and wrote this information on the
RfA page so that the arbitrators have a chance to look at what
I'm doing and tell me to stop if they wish.  I think he should
be banned permanently.

In case anyone is actually interested in the Current Events issue
he raised, there was an initial report widely taken up by many
media outlets then a couple of days later there was a corrected
version that was less widely reported.  "Harry" thinks that by
finding more copies of the first report than of the second report
he can prove the first report is true!  And this is a *good*
example of his logical skills.  (Everyone knows that when a
newspaper admits they are wrong then they probably were.) In any
case, the event is nowhere near significant enough for Current
Events, but is just one example of the crud "Harry" has been
filling up Current Events with.  People have started complaining
on the Talk page and rightly so.

Zero.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] encoding convertion

body:
Alexander Prudnikov wrote:
>   I have 2 questions about UTF-8 encoding in wiki.
>
>   1. How is the UTF-8 encoding encoded and decoded into other encodings?
>   Where in the sources can I find it? And what additional libraries or
>   software (except php, apache etc.) should I have in order to
>   encode/decode UTF-8?

Your PHP must have the XML module installed (it is installed by default)
which provides utf8_encode and utf8_decode functions. If you have iconv
support compiled in this will be used instead, which may be necessary
for URL encoding compatibility conversion for non-Western languages.

>   2. How can I define (in the code) what encoding my Wiki uses? I mean what
>   variable contain information about the encoding?

As of 1.3 the default encoding for all languages is UTF-8.

Latin-1 compatibility mode is enabled by setting $wgUseLatin1 = true; in
LocalSettings.php; this will downconvert the UTF-8 text in the language
file to Latin-1 as needed and mark the pages with the encoding marker
for ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Zero0000

once again I ask to point out specifically where the
article state that it is a correction.

Lance6Wins

--- zero 0000 <nought_0000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Harry Smith" is a far-right-wing fanatic who has
> been a menace
> for quite a while under various guises (earlier
> "OneVoice" and
> for the past few months anon IPs).  I think there is
> something
> wrong with him as his behavior is very bizarre and
> obsessive.
>
> Viajero listed him at Requests for Arbitration not
> long ago.
> In recent times, protecting Wikipedia from him has
> become quite
> a chore and I don't know why my little available
> time has to be
> so occupied when I would much prefer to be writing
> articles.
> So I started to block him and wrote this information
> on the
> RfA page so that the arbitrators have a chance to
> look at what
> I'm doing and tell m

e to stop if they wish.  I think
> he should
> be banned permanently.
>
> In case anyone is actually interested in the Current
> Events issue
> he raised, there was an initial report widely taken
> up by many
> media outlets then a couple of days later there was
> a corrected
> version that was less widely reported.  "Harry"
> thinks that by
> finding more copies of the first report than of the
> second report
> he can prove the first report is true!  And this is
> a *good*
> example of his logical skills.  (Everyone knows that
> when a
> newspaper admits they are wrong then they probably
> were.) In any
> case, the event is nowhere near significant enough
> for Current
> Events, but is just one example of the crud "Harry"
> has been
> filling up Current Events with.  People have started
> complaining
> on the Talk page and rightly so.
>
> Zero.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
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body:
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:23:14 +0100, Pete/Pcb21
<pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com> wrote:
> Dori wrote:
> > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:15:44 +0100, Pete/Pcb21
> > <pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com> wrote:
> > snip
> >
> >>The question is: Is forcing them to do this a big deal? You appear to
> >>say no it isn't. I would disagree and say yes it IS a big deal. Many,
> >>many web users CAN NOT update software on their computer (virtually
> >>anyone on a locally managed network: school, library, office, cybercafe
> >>etc) because they do not have the rights to do so. Only home users would.
> >
> >
> > No the question is, do we inconvenience Windows users to download a
> > legal and free plugin, or do we force FOSS users get illegal/pay
> > software?
>
> [This is getting a little away from the remit of the technical mailing
> list, perhaps follow up at wikipedia-l?]
>
> I must protest a little bit. You selectively edit my post in order to
> suggest something that I am not, then attack me for it. I was talking
> solely in the context of Windows - raising some points that Jimbo may
> not have been aware and then saying "the question is are those points
> important?" This is plainly different from suggesting that Windows users
> are the only people we care about. Remember that James's initial post
> was about creating a migration path.

I snipped it because I don't like replying at the bottom of a long
text. Your original post is on the mailing list for anyone to read so
it's not like I'm hiding anything.

I most certainly was not attacking you, but the idea of using non-free
media. I have no ill-regard towards you whatsoever, but I am dead set
against that non-free media. It's not like we don't have a choice, and
it's not like it's a hard choice. I will never be for convenience
(read lazyness) over openess. I have had to read Wikipedia from public
workstations where you can't install anything many times. Let me tell
you, those comp's don't even have speakers. They probably can't play
mp3's or video either. So the questions is just do we inconvenience a
few windows users, and I say we definitely should. In the end, we
teach them to use the best tools out there. If people weren't so
complacent and lazy we wouldn't have to deal with non-standard web
sites out there, and the crap-for-a-program that is IE. I don't want
Wikipedia to become another IE/DVD/CSS debacle.

>
> >>Note: we bend over backwards to support all major browsers (minimizing
> >>JavaScript etc) because most people cannot change their browser. Yet
> >>when we come to sound, we are changing tack.
> >
> >
> > Do we force people to pay for content or have them view it illegally
> > (well maybe we do when it comes to fair use, but that's a different
> > argument)?
> >
> >
> >>Whether this consideration is sufficiently strong in order for us to
> >>consider allowing other formats, I'm not sure. But it is worth bearing
> >>in mind before going GNUng-ho into going ogg-only.
> >
> >
> > We're not GNUng-ho for the sake of being GNUng-ho, there actually are
> > some sound reasons behind it (like the whole GFDL concept vs
> > copyrighting everything ala Britannica). Do we want to impose a
> > DVD/CSS style hassle on our users?
>
> It appears you can _play_ MP3s libreally and gratisly. The difficulty is
> creating them. Thus as long as the uploader "signs" to say they have
> done so legally, then the migration path that allows dual formats (even
> of the same piece) might be an option.

My understanding is that you can play them gratis, but the producers
of the player that you are using must have payed a fee. But even if it
is just for encoding, do we want to have our editors spend money to
splice together or edit some GFDL sounds?

I just don't see how people could be for the GFDL, but against OGG?
It's the same principle, namely openess and freedom.

--
[[en:User:Dori]]


from_name: S. Vertigo

body:
I agree with Christian - its got the flare of a Hearst
newspaper in the 1890's, but  You seem reasonable
enough to warrant not being blocked outright. Can you
consider moderating your tone a bit - read the News
style article.. for articles that depend on the
original and new reporting of pro outfits, quoting the
sources (until matters settle) is fine. To do
otherwise is conjecture, regardless of how its put.
See below *

Zero, I understand your frustration but IMHO would
like you to report more facts and less
characterization. Links to the relevant articles you
mention would be nice too. So far Harry has provided
several, and these would seem to support his version
of events, albeit not his characterization of it...

*"The bbc reports the event as a series of differing
reports:Some witnesses said the young man was killed
by militants whom he saw burying an anti-tank mine
near his house on a track used by Israeli patrols.
Other reports suggest he was shot by Israeli troops.
Our correspondent reports there was an exchange of
fire between the residents and the militants. Several
people were injured. In the past, ordinary people in
the town, which lies close to Gaza's border, have said
they support efforts to confront Israel. But our
correspondent says they have also made clear that they
feel their town is being made to bear too heavy a
burden - that militant action is causing them to
suffer too much at the hands of the Israeli army.

S

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body:
S. Vertigo,

I would be glad to provide quotations direct from the
links that I cited.  I hope that you will excuse the
resulting length of this email.  I will preceed each
quotation with the URL so that it may be verified by
each of you.  Please note that the New York Times
article may require a free registration, which if
memory serves, may request an email address.  Yahoo!
might serve you well there.

I hope that Zero0000 will do the same, and provide his
quotes as well.

I also hope that Zero0000 point out specifically where
the article state that it is a correction or revision
of the previous article, as Zero0000 claims, or that
the article Zero0000 cites even refers to the same
incident.

It is my sincere hope that the larger issue of the
abuse of admin privs by Zero0000 will be addressed as
well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
A Palestinian teenager has been shot dead in the Gaza
Strip in what appeared to be a clash between
Palestinian militants and local residents.

He died in the northern town of Beit Hanoun, where
militants have often launched missile attacks on
Israel.

A BBC correspondent says militants may have been
planning a rocket attack, which the residents opposed
for fear of Israeli retaliation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/23/international/middleeast/23CND-MIDE.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1090941551-Hqr5qWWTSU2IZSBo+rVB9w
In recent days, the members of the Al-Za'nin clan have
seen members of the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade, an armed
branch of Yasir Arafat's Fatah organization, using
their olive and orange groves and the roads nearby for
launching sites. This morning, when the four brigade
militants returned to try to set down a launcher along
the road running in front of the Al-Za'nin house, the
family members spoke up in anger.

The family members were worried that Israeli troops
would eventually retaliate against them, possibly even
destroying their two-story stucco house. Throughout
the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli forces, as a deterrent
strategy, have often destroyed the houses of families
and local people who cooperate with the militants.

According to Amna Al-Za'nin, the 35-year-old aunt of
the boy who was killed, members of the family
including three of her nephews argued with four
militants, but the militants ignored their appeals. As
the argument grew more heated, she said, three of the
militants started firing in the air. One though fired
off several shots directly at the family.

Miss Al-Za'nin herself was struck in the back, an
18-year-old nephew was struck in the ear, and a
20-year-old nephew was struck in the hand. But one
nephew, Hassan Al- Za'nin, 15 years old, was hit in
the back and taken to Shifa Hospital in Gaza City,
where he died. Doctors at the hospital said the bullet
penetrated the boy's heart.

"Even if we ask them not to fire from our land, that
doesn't give them permission to shoot at us," Miss Al
Za'nin said in a telephone interview from her bed at
Alawdah Hospital in Jabalia in the northern Gaza
strip. "It's very painful that a Palestinian bullet
was directed toward a Palestinian chest." She
described Hassan as the best student in his grade and
said he was supposed to attend a party tomorrow where
he was going to receive an award for academic
excellence.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/455377.html
(somewhat down the page)

PA teen killed by Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades
An Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades cell killed a 16-year-old
Palestinian boy in Beit Hanun on Friday after a row in
which his family opposed the cell's attempt to launch
Qassam rockets from their yard, Israeli security
sources said.

According to a report obtained from Palestinian
sources, the cell, comprised of six men, arrived in a
van at the Za'anun family's Beit Hanun home on Friday
morning. The militants then placed a Qassam rocket
launcher adjacent to the family home, and one of the
cell members opened fire on an armored Israel Defense
Forces vehicle nearby.

Members of the Za'anun family came out of their house
holding sticks and rocks, and tried to drive the
Al-Aqsa militants from their yard, most likely fearing
that their house would be demolished if Qassam rockets
were launched from it.

During the clash, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades
members opened fire, killing Hassan Za'anun and
wounding three other family members.

The cell left the area following the incident, without
firing the Qassam rockets.

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=66197
Sources in the PA report six PA residents, five armed,
arrived this morning in the Beit Hanoun area of
northern Gaza. The IDF is operating in that area,
working to prevent Kassam rocket attacks into southern
Green Line Israel. Two of the six got out of a vehicle
and deployed a Kassam launcher. Persons in a nearby
home came out and began pelting the terrorists with
rocks, seeking to prevent a Kassam launch from their
area, fearing IDF retaliation.

An altercation ensured, including the use of gunfire.
A 15-year-old was killed and five other persons
injured.

Sincerely,

Lance6Wins

--- "S. Vertigo" <sewev at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I agree with Christian - its got the flare of a
> Hearst
> newspaper in the 1890's, but  You seem reasonable
> enough to warrant not being blocked outright. Can
> you
> consider moderating your tone a bit - read the News
> style article.. for articles that depend on the
> original and new reporting of pro outfits, quoting
> the
> sources (until matters settle) is fine. To do
> otherwise is conjecture, regardless of how its put.
> See below *
>
> Zero, I understand your frustration but IMHO would
> like you to report more facts and less
> characterization. Links to the relevant articles you
> mention would be nice too. So far Harry has provided
> several, and these would seem to support his version
> of events, albeit not his characterization of it...
>
>
> *"The bbc reports the event as a series of differing
> reports:Some witnesses said the young man was killed
> by militants whom he saw burying an anti-tank mine
> near his house on a track used by Israeli patrols.
> Other reports suggest he was shot by Israeli troops.
> Our correspondent reports there was an exchange of
> fire between the residents and the militants.
> Several
> people were injured. In the past, ordinary people in
> the town, which lies close to Gaza's border, have
> said
> they support efforts to confront Israel. But our
> correspondent says they have also made clear that
> they
> feel their town is being made to bear too heavy a
> burden - that militant action is causing them to
> suffer too much at the hands of the Israeli army.
>
> S
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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body:
To  S. Vertigo : I didn't block him because of this, I blocked him
because he does
this sort of thing day in and day out without end and my time is more
valuable
than that.  I'm sick and tired of cleaning up after him.

Moderate his behavior?  Impossible!  People have been saying that to
him for
months and months.  You can read several earlier episodes in this
mailing list
and the records of the wiki contain countless.

The facts about the two versions of the story have been on Talk:Current
Events
from the beginning.  Haaretz wrote explicitly that the earlier version
was wrong.
I can't show it to you because they reuse the same URL for later
editions of the
same article and that part of it vanished during the day.

Look, this is about the difference between an anti-tank bomb and a
Qassam
rocket.  Why should I be spending all my time looking for proof it was
one
rather than the other when I already read Israel's newspaper of record
say it was
a bomb and they got it wrong before?  What difference does it make
anyway?
"Harry" should have accepted it and moved on but now he has all of us
wasting our time on this trivia.

Zero.

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body:
You sound frustrated. List him at RFM, and take a
break.

-S

--- zero 0000 <nought_0000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> To  S. Vertigo : I didn't block him because of this,
> I blocked him
> because he does
> this sort of thing day in and day out without end
> and my time is more
> valuable
> than that.  I'm sick and tired of cleaning up after
> him.
>
> Moderate his behavior?  Impossible!  People have
> been saying that to
> him for
> months and months.  You can read several earlier
> episodes in this
> mailing list
> and the records of the wiki contain countless.
>
> The facts about the two versions of the story have
> been on Talk:Current
> Events
> from the beginning.  Haaretz wrote explicitly that
> the earlier version
> was wrong.
> I can't show it to you because they reuse the same
> URL for later
> editions of the
> same article and that part of it vanished during the
> day.
>
> Look, this is about the difference between an
> anti-tank bomb and a
> Qassam
> rocket.  Why should I be spending all my time
> looking for proof it was
> one
> rather than the other when I already read Israel's
> newspaper of record
> say it was
> a bomb and they got it wrong before?  What
> difference does it make
> anyway?
> "Harry" should have accepted it and moved on but now
> he has all of us
> wasting our time on this trivia.
>
> Zero.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile
> phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Evan Prodromou

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewarding developers

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Don't think too far. The payment system for developers is only an
> experiment, anyway. Nobody knows if it will work out. If it *does* work
> out, there is certainly no reason not to use the same system to reward
> work on actual articles -- but let's concentrate on one side of it first.

So, I think we need to unask the question about how to pay developers to do work
for the foundation, and think about how to make MediaWiki development faster and
easier.

One thing to note is that MediaWiki _is_ a very active, vibrant project. It's
gone through a lot of changes this year, and will probably continue to.

That said, here are my suggestions for making MediaWiki a more agile piece of
software:

1. Go Open Source. I know, the software is GPL-licensed right now, but we're not
using Open Source methods to get contributions from outside Wikimedia. I think
I'm the only developer whose primary wiki project isn't a Wikimedia one. There
are a lot of wikis using MediaWiki, and we need to be drawing talent and
contributions from developers outside the Foundation framework.

2. Re-architect for comprehension. The software, as it stands, is really, really
complicated. This comes somewhat from the inherent complexity of having a wiki,
but it also comes from an accumulative development process. It's hard to figure
out how to implement a new feature or fix a bug, because it's really hard to
figure out what modules are responsible for what functionality.

3. Re-architect for extensibility. In a lot of ways, MediaWiki is more like a
first-generation "wiki script" than more modern wiki software. MediaWiki
compares unfavorably to other wiki software such as MoinMoin or Twiki in the
ability of third-party developers to create extension modules for the software.
Hell, it's hard just to change the _skin_ on MediaWiki. Extensibility means that
outside developers can doing cutting-edge experiments, and we can incorporate
(or ignore) those modules at a later time.

~ESP
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from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] Server side compression

body:
On Sun, 2004-07-25 at 10:16 +0200, Gerard.Meijssen wrote:

> On that subject, has a SAN ever been contemplated for wikimedia ?

Yes, it has to some extend. I hope that RH gets the network-raid-1
extensions to clvm ready soon though, so that one can do a GFS RAID-1
across the apaches' HD's. Much cheaper than a SAN (essentially free),
easier to scale, same availability.
--
Gabriel Wicke


body:
Dori wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:15:44 +0100, Pete/Pcb21
> <pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com> wrote:
> snip
>
>>The question is: Is forcing them to do this a big deal? You appear to
>>say no it isn't. I would disagree and say yes it IS a big deal. Many,
>>many web users CAN NOT update software on their computer (virtually
>>anyone on a locally managed network: school, library, office, cybercafe
>>etc) because they do not have the rights to do so. Only home users would.
>
>
> No the question is, do we inconvenience Windows users to download a
> legal and free plugin, or do we force FOSS users get illegal/pay
> software?

[This is getting a little away from the remit of the technical mailing
list, perhaps follow up at wikipedia-l?]

I must protest a little bit. You selectively edit my post in order to
suggest something that I am not, then attack me for it. I was talking
solely in the context of Windows - raising some points that Jimbo may
not have been aware and then saying "the question is are those points
important?" This is plainly different from suggesting that Windows users
are the only people we care about. Remember that James's initial post
was about creating a migration path.

>>Note: we bend over backwards to support all major browsers (minimizing
>>JavaScript etc) because most people cannot change their browser. Yet
>>when we come to sound, we are changing tack.
>
>
> Do we force people to pay for content or have them view it illegally
> (well maybe we do when it comes to fair use, but that's a different
> argument)?
>
>
>>Whether this consideration is sufficiently strong in order for us to
>>consider allowing other formats, I'm not sure. But it is worth bearing
>>in mind before going GNUng-ho into going ogg-only.
>
>
> We're not GNUng-ho for the sake of being GNUng-ho, there actually are
> some sound reasons behind it (like the whole GFDL concept vs
> copyrighting everything ala Britannica). Do we want to impose a
> DVD/CSS style hassle on our users?

It appears you can _play_ MP3s libreally and gratisly. The difficulty is
creating them. Thus as long as the uploader "signs" to say they have
done so legally, then the migration path that allows dual formats (even
of the same piece) might be an option.

Pete


subject: [Wikitech-l] Compare selected versions javascript

body:
On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 13:46 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> Can someone explain to me the purpose of the "Compare selected
> versions" Javascript?  It makes no sense to me, and it really slows
> down the page for me.  When I try to compare two versions, I have to
> wait a long time for the page to change to reflect my selections.

The main reasons for it are:

 * Order columns so that left/right in the diff view reflects left/right
in the selection columns
 * Prevent the user from selecting two identical versions

It's purely cosmetical and not in any way involved in the form
submission or similar, so it works just fine without.

The speed problem should be solvable by improving the diffcheck()
function (can be done by overriding the function in Monobook.js).
--
Gabriel Wicke


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
This discussion is a big waste of time. If somebody wants to provide
bounties, they should put their money where there mouth is and say what
they want done and what they're willing to pay for it -- either there
will be bites or there won't.

Sheldon, has anyone taken you up on your offer to pay for some
enhancements to login creation/verification?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Timwi wrote:
> There is nothing wrong with wanting to centrally organise these offers,
> nor is there anything wrong with allowing the community some say over
> what the Wikimedia Foundation itself should offer.

Wake me when the discussion becomes substantive rather than speculative.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Zero's ban

body:
Hes going by the name of Lance6wins by the way.

He and I have been working together on how to treat
these articles - Ive rewritten Tali Hatuel, and have
been trading critiques on the Qurei article.

As long as he makes all his edits logged in as Lance -
I dont see a good enough reason for a ban at this
time. Pages can and should be protected at the outself
of trouble erupting; any case you want to make against
Lance should be done on WP:RFAR, where it looks to be
accepted.

S

--- Rebecca <misfitgirl at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, it seems that this Harry Smith guy has once
> again gotten himself
> blocked. Current events, this time.
>
> However, it's also worth noting this guy's record.
> He's attempted to
> add POV material and subvert consensus that had
> taken a long time to
> work out on numerous articles. Indeed, before his
> previous block, I
> believe he'd assaulted not one, not two, but five
> disputed Middle
> Eastern articles [[UNRWA]] and [[Tali Hatuel]] being
> two, causing the
> former to be re-protected. He doesn't seem to
> discuss edits, just
> reverts, or if he does anything, will not give any
> ground from his
> (usually hardline) position. Thus, if he's getting
> blocked, this
> shouldn't be much of a surprise - and please don't
> judge it purely on
> the basis of his latest actions.

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from_name: Krzysztof Kowalczyk

subject: [Wikitech-l] Enhancements to login creation [was: Rewards]

body:
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:08:59 -0700, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Sheldon, has anyone taken you up on your offer to pay for some
> enhancements to login creation/verification?

Are the details of what needs to be done for this thing are written
down somewhere? I.e. if I wanted to contribute this code WikiMedia (to
be clear: as an unpaid volounteer), how do I find out what exactly
needs to be done?

Krzysztof Kowalczyk | http://blog.kowalczyk.info


from_name: Daniel P.B.Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Boston meeting????

body:
> I'm still going to the Boston meeting this Saturday, of course. :-)

What Boston meeting this Saturday?

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net alternate:
dpbsmith at alum.mit.edu
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Zero's ban

body:
Quoting Amy Goodman: "But for the media to name their
coverage what the Pentagon calls it; everyday seeing
"Operation Iraqi Freedom," you have to ask: "If this
were state [controlled] media, how would it be any
different?"

If the issue is the biased source, then we need to
deal with that policy-wise for all sources; judging
and rating them in terms of bias, accross all
articles.
Being pov is not a crime - writing POV is a typical
symptom of most writing in need of correction -
harrassment, insults, and threats - these are the
reasons for a hard ban. Hes not the most unreasonable
person in the world; he's representing a particular
view. What matters is how he and I and others conduct
themselves. Frustration is no excuse.

S

--- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> On 07/27/04 19:32, Rebecca wrote:
>
> > So, it seems that this Harry Smith guy has once
> again gotten himself
> > blocked. Current events, this time.
> > However, it's also worth noting this guy's record.
> He's attempted to
> > add POV material and subvert consensus that had
> taken a long time to
> > work out on numerous articles. Indeed, before his
> previous block, I
> > believe he'd assaulted not one, not two, but five
> disputed Middle
> > Eastern articles [[UNRWA]] and [[Tali Hatuel]]
> being two, causing the
> > former to be re-protected. He doesn't seem to
> discuss edits, just
> > reverts, or if he does anything, will not give any
> ground from his
> > (usually hardline) position. Thus, if he's getting
> blocked, this
> > shouldn't be much of a surprise - and please don't
> judge it purely on
> > the basis of his latest actions.
>
>
> The User Formerly Known As OneVoice is on [[Current
> events]] as a
> propagandist. He keeps putting in stories from INN
> (a partisan news source
> whose reports tend not to faintly resemble
> mainstream press even when one
> makes it that far. But don't take my word for it,
> read http://israelnn.com/
> - at least with Slashdot it's just kept out as
> having a ridiculously small
> ambit). I suggest it's nothing like news unless it
> hits the mainstream
> press, or what passes for mainstream in specialist
> areas. Middle-east
> politics is part of the ambit of the mainstream
> press, so if it's on INN
> and nowhere else then it's deeply suspect.
>
> (I have also been accused of bias for cutting
> completely crappy stories
> slanted against Israel, so I must therefore, by the
> comments on my actions,
> be an anti-Semitic Jew.)
>
> [[Current events]] has some sort of vague criteria
> of newsworthiness.
> While not *everything* will be caught by the
> mainstream newsfeeds, nor
> are they certain indicators of worthiness, they do
> make a handy rough guide.
> The INN feed really doesn't cut the mustard.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: moink

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Boston meeting????

body:
> What Boston meeting this Saturday?

This Saturday, 1pm (proposed, looks like it'll be kept) , at the S & S
Restaurant in Cambridge.  See [[User:Jimbo Wales/Boston]]

moink


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Zero's ban

body:
Frankly, given how the rate of RC is going by, I dont
see how we can do with the current protection policy -
page protections should be typical and used as
necessary; bans on users should not.

Some pages are well known to attract controversy, and
therefore protection/ abstrated edits by a mediator
that addresses comments on the talk.

The trick is to find editors that actually write well
in addition to listen and address the concerns; with
Ed out of the loop, WP will be shorthanded.

S

--- David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> On 07/27/04 20:39, S. Vertigo wrote:
>
> > As long as he makes all his edits logged in as
> Lance -
> > I dont see a good enough reason for a ban at this
> > time. Pages can and should be protected at the
> outself
> > of trouble erupting; any case you want to make
> against
> > Lance should be done on WP:RFAR, where it looks to
> be
> > accepted.
>
>
> Protecting [[Current events]] is hardly workable ...
>
> If he keeps to one login, that's a much better idea
> and at least then you're dealing with a single
> identity.
> Using anon IPs for sockpuppetry is distinctly bad
> behaviour.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Timwi wrote:
>
>> There is nothing wrong with wanting to centrally organise these
>> offers, nor is there anything wrong with allowing the community some
>> say over what the Wikimedia Foundation itself should offer.
>
>
> Wake me when the discussion becomes substantive rather than speculative.

I think it necessarily has to be somewhat in the subjunctive - "if
the Foundation were to spend money on software development, how should
it go about that?" Right now the discussion is like a bunch of
staffers in the West Wing kicking around ideas, looking for something
good enough to take to the boss.

One thing that I think people have danced around is who's motivated
by what. If someone can't afford to do a piece of work for free, but
will do a great job for $500, they're not being evil or immoral; that
person has just put a price tag on their time. It's then up to the
Foundation to decide whether it wants the work badly enough to pay up,
or to wait for somebody to donate their time.

It seems like it would be easy enough for the Foundation to put up
a list of wanted features with approximations to how much they're
willing to pay. The harder part is to negotiate for the work; the
more-capable people might charge more, but going cheaper could result
in an encyclopedia trashed by bad coding. But fundamentally it's the
same process as negotiating for hardware.

Stan


from_name: Neil Harris

body:
Pete/Pcb21 wrote:

>
> It appears you can _play_ MP3s libreally and gratisly. The difficulty
> is creating them. Thus as long as the uploader "signs" to say they
> have done so legally, then the migration path that allows dual formats
> (even of the same piece) might be an option.
>
> Pete
>
As far as I can see, this is no longer true. It appears that Thomson
revoked their preious royalty-free licence for free software-based MP3
players in 2002.

Read Thomson's own information:

http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/index.html
http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html

and Xiph.org's open letter to Thomson:

http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/openletter.html

-- Neil


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

body:
Hi, I'm new to this list and I'm new to the NPOV policy but it seems
very obvious to me Harry that your version is not NPOV. The term
"terrorist" is hardly neutral. It's about as loaded as
"freedom-fighter."

"Gunmen," it seems to me, is a relatively neutral term that cannot be
disputed.

Christiaan

On 27 Jul 2004, at 1:46 pm, Harry Smith wrote:

>
> I need your help.  Zero0000 is insisting upon a
> verison of events that is based upon a single report
> in AFP. The BBC, NYT, HaAretz, INN all disagree with
> Zero0000's version.  This is detailed in a table on
> [[Talk:Current Events]].  Zero0000 is also
> insisting, that a different article in HaAretz is a
> retraction of an earlier one...there is  no indication
> of such in the article itself. While that article
> details other deaths in this horrible conflict,
> nowhere does it discuss the incident of Hassan Zaanin.
>
> Zero0000's version:
> * An 18-year-old [[Palestinian]], Hassan Zaanin, is
> shot dead in Beit Hanoun in the [[Gaza Strip]] when
> heand his familiy attempt to stop Palestinian gunmen
> from planting an anti-tank explosive outside their
> house.[http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/455715.html
> (Haaretz)]
> [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
>  (BBC)]
>
> My version:
> * [[Palestinian terrorism|Palestinian terrorist]]s
> of the [[Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades]] an armed branch
> of
> [[Yasser Arafat]]'s [[Fatah]] organization,
> [[murder]] 16-year-old [[Palestinian]] Hassan
> Al-Za'nin and shoot several members of his family,
> when the family refuses to allow the terrorists to use
> the Al-Za'nin property as a [[Qassam rocket]] launch
> site.
> [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
> (BBC)]
> [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/23/international/middleeast/23CND-
> MIDE.html?hp
> (NYT)]
> [http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=66197 (INN)]
> [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/455377.html
> (HaAretz)]
>
> To prevent me from insisting that the more common
> version be used, he is blocking IP addresses that I
> use.  Please help in preventing Zero0000 from doing
> this.
>
> Sincerely,
> Lance6Wins


from_name: Alexander Prudnikov

subject: [Wikitech-l] encoding convertion

body:
Hello.

  I have 2 questions about UTF-8 encoding in wiki.

  1. How is the UTF-8 encoding encoded and decoded into other encodings?
  Where in the sources can I find it? And what additional libraries or
  software (except php, apache etc.) should I have in order to
  encode/decode UTF-8?
  2. How can I define (in the code) what encoding my Wiki uses? I mean what
  variable contain information about the encoding?

  Thank you.

Best regards,
Alexander


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:10:16 -0700, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> It seems like it would be easy enough for the Foundation to put up
> a list of wanted features with approximations to how much they're
> willing to pay.

I think the first step should be: put up a list of wanted features,
period, and advertise it, without the bounty system. Bounty can always
be added later.

Currently, as I percieve it, one of the barriers to entry for new
developers is not knowing what to work on.

Yes, I know there's a bug system and I know there are wiki page that
list a lot of ideas on what can be done. But those things are chaotic
and unprioritized i.e. looking at them I don't really know which
bugs/features are regarded as highly desirable and which ones are just
blue sky ideas that wouldn't even be accepted into CVS when done.

What is missing is a farily short (say <10 items at any given time),
prioritized list of bugs/features that are known to by highly
desirable/high priority but not done. At least I'm not aware of such
list.

This list could be done now, without waiting for the outcome of the
bounty discussion. It's a pre-requesite to a bounty system anyway and
in my opinion that's something that has a chance to help and carries
no risk (except of time spent by an individual who knows what those
tasks are to prepare this list, publish it somewhere, evangelize and
maintain up-to-date (assuming that it works and things from those list
get implemented)).

Krzysztof Kowalczyk | http://blog.kowalczyk.info


from_name: Jakob Voss

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Screenshots wanted!

body:
Hi,

For our proposal for the GALILIEO MASTERS competition (see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GALILEO_Masters_2004 ) wee need some
convincing images. I doubt the jury is familiar with Wikipedia and the
Wiki concept and a good images is always better than tons of text.

Any Idea? I thought of a photo of a subnotebook or PDA showing a
Wikimedia interface and geographical information. Surely you have to
pretend a screenshot of a system we do not already have - it's a
proposal. Maybe two or three images in one are better than a single
screenshot. First somebody with a GPS device is looking for information.
Then he gets a list of articles "You are near ... read the Wikipedia
article" "You are within ..." and buttons like "increase radius", "limit
to categories ..." and/or a small map of the world or a part of it. Then
another screenshot shows how he can directly edit the article. This is
needed for the "Wow! everybody can add information!"-feeling (the Wiki
concept is only familiar to us)!.

We need some cool images untill friday. The creator of the best image
will win a lot of fame ;-)

Greetings,
   Jakob


from_name: Mark Richards

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fired for Wikipedia

body:
Just out of interest, has anyone been fired or
disciplined for Wikipedianing at work?
Mark

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from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards for developers

body:
Marco Krohn wrote:

> I don't see any reason why developers should get money for implementing
> features while Wikipedia contributers won't get anything for their time and
> hard work. This doesn't sound fair to me.

I wonder how many people say this solely because they think they can
contribute more/better as an editor.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards for developers

body:
tic at tictric.net wrote:

> Sadly, I don't know much about programming and so my question may
> appear  "stupid",
> but what sort of contract are you going to make with a "paid volunteer"?

I don't know much about the legal side of things, but since other
organisations have done it before, I'm sure we can learn from them what
needs to be done. In the case of LiveJournal, Sandy Fitzpatrick would be
the one to contact.

> What sort of quality can be guaranteed by that sort of job?

What sort of quality can be guaranteed (or even expected) from a team of
completely unpaid volunteers? With all due respect to the current and
past developers, from a software engineering point of view MediaWiki is
very bad quality the way it is now.

> Does one have to prove his abilities before taking on the job?

Again, does one have to prove his abilities before participating in the
unpaid volunteer effort? Your questions have nothing really to do with a
payment system. You're asking about how volunteer teams work. We already
have a volunteer team.

> Will the rewarded developer only be rewarded after there is no bugs
> found  anymore? Or at least not for the past two weeks?

I can't speak for other systems that have been proposed, but in the
system I'm envisioning, people would receive less compensation for their
work if the voters feel their work was done with very bad quality and
led to more bugreports being opened.

Also remember that *not all* bugs and features need to be paid for. Only
those that are important but nobody would want to work on them without
payment.

> But when you say you pay him like an artist (and some programmers if
> not  many are artists indeed) is he responsible for his mistakes? Is it
> the job  of "unrewarded volunteers" to correct bugs?

You're asking more and more questions about the system as it is already.
This has nothing to do with rewards in the form of payment. We *already*
have volunteers, and we *already* have people who write features and
make mistakes (it's only human). We *already* have to ask ourselves
whose responsibility it is to clean up after them, and we *already* have
the problem that nobody feels truly responsible. The payment system
alleviates this problem by increasing motivation.

If a new feature introduces new bugs, bugreports can be opened in our
bug tracking software. If someone likes to fix them for free, very nice.
If not, a payment for that can be offered too.

> Are you going to "reward" writers for badly needed articles on
> wikipedia  too later on? Or the ones that try to preserve a certain
> level of quality  of the articles?

Don't think too far. The payment system for developers is only an
experiment, anyway. Nobody knows if it will work out. If it *does* work
out, there is certainly no reason not to use the same system to reward
work on actual articles -- but let's concentrate on one side of it first.

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rewards

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Of course, if we had BugZilla instead, this would be trivial. With
> BugZilla, you can give each bug a priority, and then you can directly
> link to a list of all bugs with a given priority. This is just an
> example; there are hundreds of thousands of ways of
> cataloguing/categorising bugs in BugZilla.
>
> Maybe instead of the Bounty system, I should volunteer to help install
> BugZilla on Wikimedia instead?

I'll point out that you *can* set priorities on bugs in the SourceForge
bug tracker and sort the list by priority.

However Bugzilla isn't a bad idea; I've seen some nicer-looking Bugzilla
installations around (Gnome's and Red Hat's are fairly pleasant), and
there are some problems with our current setup that could use fixing.
Our servers don't fall over quite as often as they used to, so I'm not
too worried about eggs-one-basket syndrome.

Things that should get solved with the bug tracking:

1) Clear, easy searching. While you can search on SF, it's kind of
difficult and non-obvious. We get a *lot* of duplicate reports, and the
easier it is to make people search first, the fewer we have to wade through.

2) Login integration with the wikis. A lot of people just don't leave a
way to contact them or just leave a WikiName without logging in for the
system's e-mail reports, and it's hard to get more information back from
them about hard to reproduce bugs. We could force people to log in to SF
before reporting, but this is an additional pain in the ass. If peoples'
wiki logins could carry over more or less automatically this would be
very helpful.

3) Cross-linking. Bugzilla's hyperlinks in the comments are a big help;
we could add an interwiki setup to link more easily from the wikis to
bug reports as well. Marking duplicates in Bugzilla is also a lot easier.

The main other issue is just getting people to keep up with the reports.
This is grunt work, unfortunately.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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