from_name: Frieda Brioschi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] happy birthday :-)

body:
Thanks :-))

Bye,
it.wiki ;-)

On 5/20/05, Elisabeth Bauer <elian at djini.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>             ~                  ~
>       *                   *                *       *
>                    *               *
>    ~       *                *         ~    *
>                *       ~        *              *   ~
>                    )         (         )              *
>      *    ~     ) (_)   (   (_)   )   (_) (  *
>             *  (_) # ) (_) ) # ( (_) ( # (_)       *
>                _#.-#(_)-#-(_)#(_)-#-(_)#-.#_
>    *         .' #  # #  #  # # #  #  # #  # `.   ~     *
>             :   #    #  #  #   #  #  #    #   :
>      ~      :.       #     #   #     #       .:      *
>          *  | `-.__                     __.-' | *
>             |      `````"""""""""""`````      |         *
>       *     |         | ||\ |~)|~)\ /         |
>             |         |~||~\|~ |~  |          |       ~
>     ~   *   |                                 | *
>             |      |~)||~)~|~| ||~\|\ \ /     |         *
>     *    _.-|      |~)||~\ | |~|| /|~\ |      |-._
>        .'   '.      ~            ~           .'   `.  *
>    jgs :      `-.__                     __.-'      :
>         `.         `````"""""""""""`````         .'
>           `-.._                             _..-'
>                `````""""-----------""""`````
>
> Wishing a happy birthday to the Catalan, Chinese, Dutch, German,
> Esperanto, French, Hebrew, Italian, Japanese, Portuguese, Russian,
> Spanish, and Swedish Wikipedia which celebrate their fourth anniversary
> today ;-)
>
> greetings,
> elian
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article validation feature (again) in 1.5?

body:
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Hash: SHA1

David Gerard schrieb:
> Brion Vibber (brion at pobox.com) [050520 23:14]:
>
>>Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>
>>>The current implementation is mainly for collecting data. You can see a
>>>limited statistic of each version of each article, but nothing detailed
>>>- yet.
>>>It would be very helpful for people to try this function and give me
>>>feedback on what to add/change.
>
>
>
>>Perhaps I'm dense, but I don't see any way of doing anything with it.
>>The entire form seems to consist of:
>>[ ] Use my previous assessment where selected 'No opinion'
>>[ ] Clear my older validation data
>>[OK]
>>Screen shot in Safari 2.0:
>>http://test.leuksman.com/index.php/Image:Validation-form.png
>>Looks the same in Firefox 1.0.4.
>
>
>
> That's all I can see in Mozilla 1.7.8 as well.
>
> At least now it's not breaking everything. Magnus, just give us an
> interface and you can be sure I'll be flooding you with helpful suggestions
> ;-D

You could do it all along: just go to "Special pages", "Validate page",
"Manage", Add a topic, a number (2 or above), check the checkbox, and
there's your topic, for everyone and his/her dog to vote on!

Maybe not *that* intuitive, on second thought ;-)

Anyway, this should be limited to admins or buerocrats or something on
the live site. We don't want people to add a million topics to vote on,
even on a wiki. Too many choices, not healthy...

I've already added a topic "Strangeness", ranging from 1-5, and an
"Include on DVD?", ranging from 1-2; the latter will be automagically
displayed as "yes/no".

OK, now go play! :-)

Magnus
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list: foundation-l

from_name: Nicolas Weeger

subject: [Foundation-l] [Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] LesTrophées du Libre - votre nomination]

body:
Hi everyone, just forwarding this mail concerning MediaWiki.

Rough translation: MediaWiki nominated for "special php prize" on a
french contest (no, we haven't won yet :p).

We'll hopefully coordinate in France so someone can go there on the
26th for prize.

Nicolas

-------- Message original --------
Sujet: [Wikimediafr-l] Les Troph?es du Libre - votre nomination
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:30:30 +0200
De: Christophe Ballihaut <christophe.ballihaut at nexenservices.com>
R?pondre ?: Discussion ? propos de l'association Wikim?dia en France
<wikimediafr-l at wikimedia.org>
Organisation: Nexen Services
Pour: wikimediafr-l at wikimedia.org
Copie: brion at pobox.com

Bonjour,
votre project a ?t? nomin? pour le prix Special PHP des Troph?es du Libre.
http://www.tropheesdulibre.org/rubrique.php3

Il a ?t? ?lu parmis une 40 de projets par un jury compos? de:
* Rasmus Lerdof (Cr?ateur de PHP)
* B?rd Farstad(co-fondateur eZ Systems)
* Beno?t Thieulin (Attach? au cabinet du Premier Ministre)
* Damien Seguy ( co-fondateur de Nexen Services et Nexen.net).

Je souhaite organiser la venue d'un repr?sentant officiel du projet
Mediawiki
en France lors de la remise des prix le 26 mai 2005 ? Soisson.
Pouvez vous rentrer en contact avec moi pour g?rer cela.

Pour information, le projet a ?t? soumis par brion at pobox.com
et le Prix est sponsoris? par Nexen Services.

Cordialement,
Christophe Ballihaut
Nexen Services
t?l: +33 1 46 67 72 95
12 rue du Moulin des Bruy?res
92400 Courbevoie

Retrouvez toutes nos offres d'h?bergement Open Source sur:
http://www.nexenservices.com/

Retrouvez toute l'actualit? et les dossiers d'experts sur le PHP et
MySQL sur:
http://www.nexen.net/

Retrouvez tous les mois l'information d?di?e aux professionnels du PHP
et de
MySQL:
http://www.directionphp.biz/
_______________________________________________
Wikimediafr-l mailing list
Wikimediafr-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediafr-l


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] [Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] LesTrophées du Libre - votre nomination]


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] [Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] LesTrophées du Libre - votre nomination]


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: A license for the Ultimate Wiktionary

body:
Jean-Baptiste Soufron wrote:

> changing the license of a running project is difficult, but not that
> much.

I'm skeptical about this claim, as I think it's much easier said than done.

Does anyone know of collaborative projects that have actually switched
licenses entirely, even in the software world?

The only case I have any familiarity with is Nupedia, which I understand
changed from its homegrown license to the GFDL shortly before Wikipedia
was created (thus putting us in the licensing position we are now).
Since I believe all copyrights were assigned to Bomis, this was a rather
simple proposition, as a single copyright holder can just go ahead and
release the content under a different license. Changing licenses when
multiple parties are involved would be much more complex.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] A license for the Ultimate Wiktionary

body:
Robin Shannon wrote:
> Just taking this off-topic a little. I just read RFC2229 (DICT), and
> it states that it uses UTF-8. I thought thier were various problems
> with using UTF-8, regarding asian languages, but i could be wrong...

Such as...?

We're already using UTF-8 for everything except a few of the older
European-language Wikipedias which are on an 8-bit ISO 8859 encoding,
and those will be finally converted when we upgrade to 1.5.

While UTF-8 is somewhat less space efficient in that range than some
alternatives, most alternatives are less convenient for many purposes.
Its coverage is equal to any other Unicode data encoding, and far easier
to work with for multilingual text than anything that's not Unicode.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Robin Shannon wrote:
> Just taking this off-topic a little. I just read RFC2229 (DICT), and
> it states that it uses UTF-8. I thought thier were various problems
> with using UTF-8, regarding asian languages, but i could be wrong...

Such as...?

We're already using UTF-8 for everything except a few of the older
European-language Wikipedias which are on an 8-bit ISO 8859 encoding,
and those will be finally converted when we upgrade to 1.5.

While UTF-8 is somewhat less space efficient in that range than some
alternatives, most alternatives are less convenient for many purposes.
Its coverage is equal to any other Unicode data encoding, and far easier
to work with for multilingual text than anything that's not Unicode.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Robin Shannon wrote:
> Just taking this off-topic a little. I just read RFC2229 (DICT), and
> it states that it uses UTF-8. I thought thier were various problems
> with using UTF-8, regarding asian languages, but i could be wrong...

Such as...?

We're already using UTF-8 for everything except a few of the older
European-language Wikipedias which are on an 8-bit ISO 8859 encoding,
and those will be finally converted when we upgrade to 1.5.

While UTF-8 is somewhat less space efficient in that range than some
alternatives, most alternatives are less convenient for many purposes.
Its coverage is equal to any other Unicode data encoding, and far easier
to work with for multilingual text than anything that's not Unicode.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Robin Shannon wrote:
> Just taking this off-topic a little. I just read RFC2229 (DICT), and
> it states that it uses UTF-8. I thought thier were various problems
> with using UTF-8, regarding asian languages, but i could be wrong...

Such as...?

We're already using UTF-8 for everything except a few of the older
European-language Wikipedias which are on an 8-bit ISO 8859 encoding,
and those will be finally converted when we upgrade to 1.5.

While UTF-8 is somewhat less space efficient in that range than some
alternatives, most alternatives are less convenient for many purposes.
Its coverage is equal to any other Unicode data encoding, and far easier
to work with for multilingual text than anything that's not Unicode.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wikien-l

from_name: Seth Ilys

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: article size

body:
I think that the "suggested" 32k article limit is a useful tool for
provoking sub-articles or spinning sections off into article on their
own right. I feel like the size limit "warning" still serves a useful,
but not a necessary purpose. While our articles should be informative
as our first priority, they should also be enjoyable to read...

--
Seth Ilys
   email: seth.ilys at gmail.com
   IM (aol, msn, yahoo): JehanneDaix
   blog: http://somewhereindurham.blogspot.com/

On 5/20/05, dpbsmith at verizon.net <dpbsmith at verizon.net> wrote:
> Incidentally, article size is one area in which "Wikipedia is not
> paper" serves us poorly. In the 11th edition of the Encyclopedia
> Britannica, the article on the Bible is approximately one megabyte in
> size. That decision was presumably made on the basis of style,
> organization, and readability. You can riffle through twenty pages a
> second or more and still glimpse running heads. And the articles in the
> old Britannica are so well-written that you can sit down with them and
> read them from beginning to end.


list: commons-l

from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Commons-l] National Flags and Languages

body:
Please, stop using national flags for denoting human languages.  Both
entities do not match.  Using flag is discriminating minorities - it is
not appropriate to discriminate someone even if this would actually
improve accessibility.

These misleading flags are that small that I often must look twice to
recognize them; and if recognized, it isn't even sure that I know what
they mean!  I don't watch TV and that's probably why I'm not familiar
with all these modern flags.

Instead of flags use a cobination of language code (ISO) and the native
name:

de - Deutsch
en - English
es - Espa?ol
ja - ???
etc.

For reference see
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Templates_for_galleries (where
you must change the templates) and
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump .  As long as
this feature is under discussion we should stay away from announcing
it; at least, for the time being we must make it as neutral as possible:
Display {{german}} as <nowiki>{{german}}</nowiki> .

It is important for me to get this issue right.

--
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                           |      ,__o
                                                        |    _-\_<,
                                                        |   (*)/'(*)
Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4  AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] sco/fiu-vro in danger..

body:
Angela (beesley at gmail.com) [050520 12:08]:

> Something's gone very wrong when playing chess on the wiki
> (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chess_championship>) is
> acceptable but creating a demo Wikipedia in a new language is not.
> If this does not survive VfD, and you want a temporary small wiki,
> you're welcome at <http://scratchpad.wikicities.com/>. For a longer
> term Wikicity, you need consensus within Wikipedia that this language
> can *not* exist within Wikimedia.

Is there any actual deletion policy beyond "I feel like it"? Particularly,
as seems to have happened here, when the nominator removes the page
preremptorily themselves. As I understood it, from posts to this list,
starting a new language in a test area in Meta: was something they were
actually *supposed* to do.

What on earth is going on here? Beyond "if it survives VFD".

- d.


from_name: Craig Franklin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: sco/fiu-vro in danger

body:
The proposed deletion of these pages is quite outrageous.  Meta is a place
to prepare content for Wikipedias, in this case, future Wikipedias. I don't
think the intention of the pages on Meta is to actually build a Scots/Voro
site there, but it is merely a showcase.

Anyway, the consensus on Meta seems to be to keep those pages.  I hope that
anything that has been deleted is restored as soon as practicable (there's
nothing in the log though, the pages have probably just been moved).  But
yeah, I think that these showcases are quite good ideas, and I'd hate to see
them destroyed by rules lawyers on Meta.

Regards,
- Craig

-------------------
Craig Franklin
PO Box 764
Ashgrove, Q, 4060
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
and Culture.


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Non-commercial only and By Permission Only Images to
	be deleted

body:
On 5/20/05, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> This suggests an interesting contest for wikipedian photographers;
> who can illustrate the most previously-unillustrated articles,
> using only new photographs taken on a designated day? The articles
> should already exist at the time of the contest's announcement -
> no fair creating road intersection articles for the purpose! :-)
> Optionally, there should be no existing useful pictures on commons
> or in any language's article (though that's hard to check).

Lets include replacing fair-use, status unknown, NC, and other various
non-free images with images that are substantially similar but free.
:)

The problem is that participants would cheat by saving up photos. :)
and even if they didn't we'd end up with lots of duplicate photographs
of the same easy-subjects. :)

I could go to a mall and get photographs of dozens of makes of cars I
bet most cars are covered but lots of easy targets remain. :)

You also run into questions of quality, some snapshot of the thing in
question is better than nothing, but it's better if the picture also
teaches you something (i.e. not just some random product photo), and
even better if it is ascetically pleasing at the same time. :)


from_name: Andries Krugers Dagneaux

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
I notice that lately articles on the Featured article Candidates are
often longer, sometimes almost twice, than the recommended size of 32k
and nobody complains anymore about it. Personally, I do not object to
articles that have a size <64k but I do have a problem with the
inconsistent enforcement of standards for size that are now used.
For example, some contributors oppose to an article about [[Germany]]
larger than 32k. A comparable article like the [[United States]] has a
size of 61k.
I request consistent enforcement of this recommendation or a more
lenient recommendation e.g. <64k.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany
 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_size>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_size
 Andries K.D.


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Magnus Manske wrote:

>OK, now go play! :-)

Ok, so let's see...

is there a way to see who validated a certain article? Or which articles
a user validated?
is there a way to see who created a certain validation topic?

Alfio


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: sco/fiu-vro in danger..

body:
Alphax wrote:

>
>meta is a Wiki about Wikipedia. It's not Wikipedia. It's about
>Wikipedia, Wikipedians, and MediaWiki. It has pages, not articles. No
>deletions should be taking place like this. There doesn't need to be VFD
>on meta at all.
>
Hoi,
Thank you for your definition. The only problem with it is, it that it
is wrong. Meta is about WikiMedia and its projects. It is about
Wikimedians and the communities they belong to. If you care for what we
are, in Meta you find that it is about all knowledge in all languages
and providing it Freely to all people of this world and how we want to
do this.

When people create Wikipedia content in Meta, it is easy to indentify
that it is in the wrong place. It is ever so nice that using a VfD
system, proper notice is given that it should not be there. This gives
the proper notice that something should be done about it. One of these
things is: discuss it. :)
Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
Unless we're living in a world of 56K internet still, I think 32K could
become at least 50K. Even articles on albums by Eminem and so forth are
getting above 32K - Giving that limit is slowly even limiting the growth of
good articles. If an article grows above that it should be allowed to grow,
unless it is obviously repeating itself.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

> >As it happens, some (including me) think it's a
> >good recommended maximum length for an article for readability - there
> >should be a compelling reason to go over six thousand words. But
> >considerations like 172's (subject requires it, article is really good)
> >still get past. So if the Germany article should get by even being over
> >32k, the nominator would probably have to convince people the subject
> >required it for proper coverage. (Which I can well see being likely.)
>
> In this case, the issue is more complex than just the 32k limit.
> Regardless, and without getting into extreme detail, brevity is being
> strongly encouraged on the article, which is already well over 32K, and
> seems to be getting larger with every edit.  The argument from the person
> most strongly arguing against limiting the size seems to me to mostly be
> "These are facts, and the United States article is even bigger, that's not
> fair".
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: sco/fiu-vro in danger

body:
If for some reason these are denied status as Wikipedia languages, I
would be happy to host them.

And indeed, it's quite outrageous that anybody would nominate them for deletion.

Mark

On 20/05/05, Craig Franklin <craig at halo-17.net> wrote:
> The proposed deletion of these pages is quite outrageous.  Meta is a place
> to prepare content for Wikipedias, in this case, future Wikipedias. I don't
> think the intention of the pages on Meta is to actually build a Scots/Voro
> site there, but it is merely a showcase.
>
> Anyway, the consensus on Meta seems to be to keep those pages.  I hope that
> anything that has been deleted is restored as soon as practicable (there's
> nothing in the log though, the pages have probably just been moved).  But
> yeah, I think that these showcases are quite good ideas, and I'd hate to see
> them destroyed by rules lawyers on Meta.
>
> Regards,
> - Craig
>
> -------------------
> Craig Franklin
> PO Box 764
> Ashgrove, Q, 4060
> Australia
> http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
> and Culture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


body:
Well, Angela and Anthere both seem to endorse it.

The idea actually started with, I believe, the Cantonese debate where
Felix Wan decided to go start a Cantonese Test-wikipedia to show
people that it really /can/ be done.

I encouraged him, not thinking much about it being against the rules of meta.

After that, I personally suggested the same thing to Amikeco, the
founder of the Ossetic Wikipedia, although he had already created an
off-site demo.

I suggested the same thing for Scots a while back, in fact I started
it myself and let actual Scotsmen populate it with content.

Seelterfraisk was started by HaafLimbo iirc (his username at the
Limburgish Wikipedia where I seem it most often because I still have
it in my list of Wikipedias I monitor, he's called Wouter Steenbeek on
the list I think), at my suggestion.

I personally started Skandinavisk as a test case to see how a bit of
clever language planning might positively effect the Scandinavian
Wikipedia community. As anybody who knows any Scandinavian language
will see, it is not quite Danish or Bokm?l, but not quite Swedish
either and not Nynorsk. (definitely not Icelandic or Faroese). It is
an attempt at an artificially-engineered Scandinavian "happy medium"
and I have so far only used it in the context of test-wp.

Fiu-vro was created entirely without my knowledge, and I believe that
(and its use of the main article space rather than
/test-wp/fiu-vro/ARTICLENAME) is what alerted Aphralagia to the
existance of the essperimentu.

Salutatziones
Mark

On 20/05/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > So how does that square with people being told on this list to create a
> > test version on Meta if they want a new language Wikipedia?
> >
> > Can anyone answer this?
>
> Maybe whoever told them that could explain it. It seems a bit odd.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


body:
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Alfio Puglisi schrieb:
> is there a way to see who validated a certain article? Or which articles
> a user validated?

I have not made such a display for privacy reasons. Public voting is
more a Chinese thing ;-)

It would be no problem, though, to generate such pages. Maybe anonymized
would be good (to see the indidual comments).

> is there a way to see who created a certain validation topic?

No. My idea was to have consensus first on what topics to create. The
execution of that decision is supposed to be a boring thing :-)

Magnus
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body:
David Gerard schrieb:
> Gregory Maxwell (gmaxwell at gmail.com) [050521 05:55]:
>
>>On 5/19/05, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
>
>
>>>I fixed it (hopefully) and asked Brion to turn it on again.
>
>
>
>>nitpick: When you click the validate tab the page that comes up shows
>>under the article tab, it should stay under the validate tab.
>
>
>
> Ah. Is the interface only present in Monobook? I've been using Classic.

Yes, I didn't figure out where to put the tab thingy in Classic. Who
designed that damned thing anyway?

Oh, wait...


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Gerard schrieb:
> I just added "NPOV", range 1-4. How do I validate a version of an article?

1. Click on "history"
2. Click on the version you would like to validate
3. Click the "Validate" tab
4. Enter data
5. Press da button

Done! :-)
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from_name: Erik Moeller

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Non-commercial only and By Permission Only Images
	to	be deleted

body:
Gregory:
> I've received three replies back so far, one indicating that her work
> was indeed "free for any use" but two who complained that stock.xchng
> isn't clear in their licensing and that their work isn't PD. One of
> them said his work is cc-by-nc-sa,

That directly contradicts the terms they uploaded them under, which
allow for commercial use. To say we have to contact every individual SXC
user is like saying we have to contact people uploading their work as
CC-BY-SA and make sure that they really "meant it." I disagree with that
notion. If people explicitly upload images with "no usage restrictions",
then that's what I think we should refer to, unless these people then
contact us and complain about the usage.

Erik


from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
On Friday, May 20, 2005 10:38 PM, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> More condensed treatments should be available to serve those readers
> while at the same time links to related articles can provide the detail
> for those who need that. By 'more condensed' I mean articles that are in
> the size range of a normal college term paper (10-15 printed 8.5x11 pages
> of prose with standard font).

After brief discussion over this in IRC, this would apparently be
approximately 2500 to 3500 words or so, without formatting, or about 9-14
pages of A4 (judging by total area according to
http://www.betweenborders.com/a4/ so this might be a bit off).

HTH for others who weren't... blessed by an American education. :-)

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


body:
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David Gerard schrieb:
> Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050521 06:29]:
>
>>David Gerard schrieb:
>
>
>>>Ah. Is the interface only present in Monobook? I've been using Classic.
>
>
>
>>Yes, I didn't figure out where to put the tab thingy in Classic. Who
>>designed that damned thing anyway?
>>Oh, wait...
>
>
>
> Shall I report a bug on it working in the One True Skin then? ;-)

"One skin to bind them all"? Nah, that was last year.

"Revenge of the Skin", anyone? :-)

> The feature looks nice in Monobook and seems to make sense. Are you taking
> bug reports yet,

Sure! But, as it is tradition, I went ahead with the initial coding, and
shy away from bugfixing ;-)

and shall we start discussing what aspects need rating?

I just started
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/En_validation_topics

Magnus
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body:
Brion Vibber (brion at pobox.com) [050520 23:14]:
> Magnus Manske wrote:

> >The current implementation is mainly for collecting data. You can see a
> >limited statistic of each version of each article, but nothing detailed
> >- yet.
> >It would be very helpful for people to try this function and give me
> >feedback on what to add/change.

> Perhaps I'm dense, but I don't see any way of doing anything with it.
> The entire form seems to consist of:
> [ ] Use my previous assessment where selected 'No opinion'
> [ ] Clear my older validation data
> [OK]
> Screen shot in Safari 2.0:
> http://test.leuksman.com/index.php/Image:Validation-form.png
> Looks the same in Firefox 1.0.4.

That's all I can see in Mozilla 1.7.8 as well.

At least now it's not breaking everything. Magnus, just give us an
interface and you can be sure I'll be flooding you with helpful suggestions
;-D

- d.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re:
	[Wikipedia-l]Schoolsonen:(wasDoImisunderstandWikipedia

body:
JAY JG (jayjg at hotmail.com) [050521 00:10]:

> Your apologetics are interesting examples of rationalization, but the
> bottom line remains that a group of school inclusionists, organized via a
> school inclusionist page, were robotically voting identical "keep" votes on
> large sets of school deletions.

And are you asserting this is regular practice? Or did people issue lots of
"keep" votes in response to an unreasonable flood of nominations? Are the
words "unclean hands" applicable to this protest?

- d.


from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Commons-l]
	STOP Translations needed: Wikimedia Commons reaches 100, 000 uploads

body:
It would be best to wait a few days before sending
this press release.

More precisely it would be best to wait on the 25th...
because there will be an announcement about
wikicommons on that date. This announcement is not yet
public but will be made public on the 25th.

Aurevilly has already written an announcement for it,
in english.

It might be useful to see if both releases could not
be merged in one... I suggest the parties involved in
the commons press release discuss this before any
publishing of this one.

Anthere

--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> The press release is almost done at:
>
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press_releases/100K
>
> If someone wants to write a background section on
> what wikis are etc.,
> that might be a useful addition. Beyond that, please
> make minor fixes,
> and help to translate it into as many languages as
> possible. We can
> start sending this out on Monday. It doesn't need to
> be done in all
> languages simultaneously; if some need a few more
> days, that's fine.
>
> As noted in the release, the 100,000th file, by my
> count, is:
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Dataflowfiringnodes.png
>
> All best,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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subject:
[Foundation-l] STOP Translations needed: Wikimedia Commons reaches
	100, 000 uploads


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: license evolution

body:
Robin Shannon wrote:

>How about this for a draft license:
>
>Wikimedia license 1.0
>
>Preamble,
>this only exists to give us an escape route if need be
>
>1.
>Anything distributed under this license must conform to the terms and
>conditions of the CC-Wiki license or the GFDL license or the CC-BY-SA
>license.
>
>2.
>Anything licensed under this license will also be licensed under any
>later version of this license.
>
>------
>If we put that into lawyer language, then we don't really have a
>proper license, but have the ability to add in another clause in a
>later version saying "and it must confom to the terms of the
>foo-licnese". Hence the wikimedia foundation can in effect add a new
>licnese which which will be backwards compatable when ever the need
>may come up.
>
>i dont know if this is actually legaly possible, but it might be worth a shot.
>
>
I don't know about the legal possibility, but I would question the
ethics.  What it's saying is, "It doesn't matter what you agree to
because we can unilaterally change it later anyway."

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: license evolution


subject:
[Commons-l] STOP Translations needed: Wikimedia Commons reaches
	100, 000 uploads

body:
Perfect :-)

Since you are around, I am confident you can see of
all this. Right now, the release is hosted on the
grantwiki  but you naturally have it in your own mails
;-)

Ant

--- Jean-Christophe Chazalette
<jean-christophe.chazalette at laposte.net> wrote:
> Excellent. May 25th being my birthday, I'll take the
> annoucement as a
> conjunction of stars.
> villy ~~ JC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anthere" <anthere9 at yahoo.com>
> To: "Wikimedia Commons Discussion List"
> <commons-l at wikimedia.org>;
> <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:14 AM
> Subject: [Commons-l] STOP Translations needed:
> Wikimedia Commons reaches
> 100, 000 uploads
>
>
> | It would be best to wait a few days before sending
> | this press release.
> |
> | More precisely it would be best to wait on the
> 25th...
> | because there will be an announcement about
> | wikicommons on that date. This announcement is not
> yet
> | public but will be made public on the 25th.
> |
> | Aurevilly has already written an announcement for
> it,
> | in english.
> |
> | It might be useful to see if both releases could
> not
> | be merged in one... I suggest the parties involved
> in
> | the commons press release discuss this before any
> | publishing of this one.
> |
> | Anthere
> |
> |
> | --- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> | > The press release is almost done at:
> | >
> | >
> |
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press_releases/100K
> | >
> | > If someone wants to write a background section
> on
> | > what wikis are etc.,
> | > that might be a useful addition. Beyond that,
> please
> | > make minor fixes,
> | > and help to translate it into as many languages
> as
> | > possible. We can
> | > start sending this out on Monday. It doesn't
> need to
> | > be done in all
> | > languages simultaneously; if some need a few
> more
> | > days, that's fine.
> | >
> | > As noted in the release, the 100,000th file, by
> my
> | > count, is:
> | >
> |
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Dataflowfiringnodes.png
> | >
> | > All best,
> | >
> | > Erik
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Commons-l mailing list
> | > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> | >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
> | >
> |
> | __________________________________________________
> | Do You Yahoo!?
> | Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> | http://mail.yahoo.com
> | _______________________________________________
> | Commons-l mailing list
> | Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> |
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail


body:
Gregory Maxwell:

> The vast majority of the images we have taken from stock exchange are
> mediocre images of everyday objects

Have you performed a survey? SXC is a community project just like
Wikimedia. Besides everyday objects, it includes photos from all around
the world, e.g.:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Orthodox_monk_in_curch%2C_Romania.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Conquistador%27s_monument_in_Lisbon.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Alhambra_Grenade_mlkfj.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Autumn_on_lake%2C_Cottonwood%2C_Arizona.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ataturk%27s_Mausoleum_in_Ankara_%28tr%29.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Taj_Mahal_1_by_alexfurr.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Medina_tower_in_Sousse%2C_Tunisia.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Andes_Mountain_by_Apile.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Mekong_by_skawimp.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Truli_houses_in_Alberobello%2C_Italy._Unesco.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Temple_of_Komombo_in_the_late_afternoon_sun.jpg

If you can manage to take equivalent photos of all these locations in
one afternoon, I'll be seriously impressed.

In its terms and marketing, SXC is clearly intended as a free (as in
speech) content repository. As a community, we have decided that the
most sensible policy is to follow the *usage terms stated on the image
description pages*.

I agree with you that, if a photographer states contradictory terms in
their profile, we should generally get in touch with them and clarify
the situation. But photos which are unambiguously flagged as "no usage
restrictions" are perfectly fine. There's no grey area here. It's not
our job to proactively make sure that users have not mistakenly made
their material available as free content.

However, SXC photos should *not* be labeled public domain. If you see
them tagged as such, please change it to {{CopyrightedFreeUse}}.

Erik


from_name: Richard Rabinowitz

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Daniel Mayer wrote:

> --- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> > The issue is always download speed when we serve a diverse international
> > audience and at least make noises about serving the poor and the third
> > world. Serving up articles over 100kb long with several images each over
> > 200kb will basically stop a slower computer with limited memory operating
> > with a modem in its tracks, sometimes even requiring a reboot. Essentially
> > the site becomes unusable.
>
> There is also the issue of print. So while Wikipedia is not paper, it would be
> nice to include articles on every major topic without having to cut down more
> trees than needed. So we should summarize much more often and move more
> detailed text to daughter articles (we'd likely only print selected parent
> articles in a print version).
>
> Readers also very often have limited time and/or patience (especially on the
> Internet). More condensed treatments should be available to serve those readers
> while at the same time links to related articles can provide the detail for
> those who need that. By 'more condensed' I mean articles that are in the size
> range of a normal college term paper (10-15 printed 8.5x11 pages of prose with
> standard font).
>

College term papers generally are double-spaced. Internet printouts tend
to be single spaced. Sure you're not taking that into account?


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Non-commercial only and By Permission Only Images	to
	be deleted

body:
0

On Fri, 20 May 2005, Stan Shebs wrote:

> Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> > If you can manage to take equivalent photos of all these locations in
> > one afternoon, I'll be seriously impressed.
>
> This suggests an interesting contest for wikipedian photographers;
> who can illustrate the most previously-unillustrated articles,
> using only new photographs taken on a designated day? The articles
> should already exist at the time of the contest's announcement -
> no fair creating road intersection articles for the purpose! :-)
> Optionally, there should be no existing useful pictures on commons
> or in any language's article (though that's hard to check).
>
> Stan

.....either that, or a team effort, or "One to beam around the world,
Scotty!"


from_name: Alphax

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tony Sidaway wrote:
[snip]
> Some data points to get along with.  Two users that I looked at, at
> random today: User:  Dozenist
>
> First edit January, not many edits before this week when he started
> editing some dentistry articles in earnest.  Came to VfD on 13th
> (last Friday) when he made a pertinent comment about the VfD for
> "Waterfluoridation quotes".  First ever school VfD votes: today.
>
> User: No Account
>
> First ever edit on Wikipedia 16th, this Monday. Around 70 article
> edits, edited every day except Wednesday.  First schools VfD vote
> today. 33 votes in less than 25 minutes. Without looking at
> Wikipedia, can you tell which one of them consistently votes keep and
> which one of them consistently voted delete?
>

I'll take a wild guess and say Dozenist votes delete, No Account (evil,
evil! username) votes keep.

Please advise what the actual answer is.

- --
Alphax
GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Non-commercial only and By Permission Only Images to be
	deleted

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thing is, if someone says "contact me for permission", and gives a
possibly years unused email address, what can you do? People who give
Yahoo, Hotmail or other free webmail addresses are virtually
unreachable, because

a) the account could be dead
b) the account could get so much spam that messages never get through
c) the account might be alive but not used anymore

I can think of at least one image where this is the case. I tried
emailing the author, but got no response.

- --
Alphax
GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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subject:
[Commons-l] Translations needed: Wikimedia Commons reaches 100,
	000 uploads

body:
The press release is almost done at:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press_releases/100K

If someone wants to write a background section on what wikis are etc.,
that might be a useful addition. Beyond that, please make minor fixes,
and help to translate it into as many languages as possible. We can
start sending this out on Monday. It doesn't need to be done in all
languages simultaneously; if some need a few more days, that's fine.

As noted in the release, the 100,000th file, by my count, is:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Dataflowfiringnodes.png

All best,

Erik


subject:
[Foundation-l] Translations needed: Wikimedia Commons reaches 100,
	000 uploads


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Live and Let live? Oh, really?

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert wrote:
> Alphax writes to me:
>
>> At present, there is *no* neutral way to represent dates. Let's
>> just call a spade a spade and not try to make something sound like
>>  something it's not.
>
>
> You're very confused.  I am not making any such claim.
>

IIRC, this whole debate was over whether AD/BC was NPOV or not.

>
> Alphax writes:
>
>> If you feel you are being forced to use Christian terminology, why
>> use the Christian date system at all? CE is still based (albeit
>> incorrectly) on the birthdate of one Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> Stop being disingenous.  We all agree that the numeric dating system
>  currently in use has to be the one that is used in all articles.  It
>  is just the Jesus-worshipping honorifics (BC/AD) that some of us
> object to.  The growing consensus in the academic community is to use
>  religion-neutral terms such as BCE/CE.
>

And some of us object to the arrogant attitude that the time period aka.
AD is common to anyone but Christians, when clearly it is not. It just
happens to be the dating system used by most of the world. Renaming it
"Common Era", ie. removing the only name which has any significance -
Anno Domini - is as bad as Holocaust denial.

Heres somthing that everyone should read - the Anno Domini article:

"*Anno Domini* (Latin: "In the year of the Lord"), or more completely
*Anno Domini Nostri Jesu Christi* ("in the year of our Lord Jesus
Christ"), commonly abbreviated *AD* or *A.D.*, is the designation used
to number years in the dominant *Christian Era* in the world today....
The Christian Era is the only system in everyday use in the Western
World, and the main system for commercial and scientific use in the rest
of the world. In academic historical and archaeological circles,
particularly in the United States, the same epoch is sometimes referred
to as the Common Era (CE) and the BC period as Before the Common Era (BCE)."

>
> Again, stop pretending that all members of this list are illiterate.
>  We understand fully how Protestant Chrisitan fundamentalists define
>  this term.
>

I'm interested to hear how *you* define fundamentalist. If you take it
to mean someone who actually believes in what they say, as opposed to
someone who just says things without meaning it, then you are worth less
than a grain of sand, for even a grain of sand will follow logic.

>
>> You have heard of Freedom of Religion?
>
> Yes, and please stop making such bizarre implications.  No one is
> preventing Christians (or Muslims or Jews) from having their own
> theology, from having their own beliefs, from worshipping in their
> own houses of worship, or from following their own religious
> practices.
>

In this case, they *are* following their own religious practices - to go
and make disciples.

> Freedom of religion, however, prevents people from one religion from
>  harassing people from another religion. US law prohibits people from
>  harassing others with this kind of religious proselytization.  (In
> fact, I already have been notified that if I choose to bring a case
> against the people I referred to, I will almost certainly win.  I am
> trying to find a non-legal way to do deal with them.  They do think
> that all Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and agnostics
> are damned to hell, and they are making difficult to work where I am
> an employee.)
>

I thought wearing a t-shirt would be covered by Freedom of Speech.

> You seem to imagine that "Freedom of religion" actually means
> "Freedom for religious fundamentalists to create a hostile workplace
>  environment", and that "Non fundamentalists have no rights at all."

How is their expression of faith creating a hostile workplace
environment? You feel offended? Maybe that's because what they are
saying is true, you know it, and the truth hurts? Again, I am hesistant
to discuss fundamentalism with you, but you have the same rights as the
people who you claim to be offended by do.

> You worldview is the same as that of religious dictators.

Based on what? I don't advocate the kidnapping and torture of people who
don't agree with me.

> You also seem ignorant (in the literal sense of the term) of US law.
>

In that you are correct; I don't live in the US, so I have no reason to
know what US law is. The concepts of Freedom of Speech and Religion I
speak of are like the concept of Free as in Freedom.

>
>> We live in a society that has seen the marginalisation, desecration
>>  and humilitation of Jesus Christ.
>
> Are you joking, or trying to start a holy war against all
> non-fundamentalist Christians?

Well, it's the truth. As of, oh, now, I am being persecuted for speaking
out about this. And no, I don't believe in holy war, and I still don't
know what you mean by fundamentalist.

> It is enraged fundamentalists like you who start inquisitions,
> crusades and jihads.

Luckily for you, you are mistaken.

> I hope other Wiki-En editors are keeping a close eye on your
> submissions.
>

Now why would that be?

- --
Alphax
GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Anthere wrote:
> Actually, I *feel* there is a deletion spree going on on meta, which I
> find most inappropriate. It seems slowly, the goal of meta, what is
> acceptable over there is changing and I am not sure at all I like these
> changes.
>
> Recently for example, someone listed one of my articles, which had been
> there for more than 2 years, listed under humour and essay. I had to
> move it as a subpage of mine to avoid it being deleted. The reason given
> to delete it was "rant and non encyclopedic"
>
> Since WHEN do we have to write only encyclopedic and reasonably boring
> stuff on meta ?
>
> It is not really surprising me that a birth project got deleted or
> threatened of deletion as well.
>
> Meanwhile, there is a lot of crap still there, and people are delighted
>  listing themselves under "wikipedians who went to tagadaschtroumpf
> college and wear 56 size pink shoes with a yellow hat".
>
>
> What escape me is "what harm does humour and essays on meta when the
> essays are not insulting anyone ?"
>
> What escape me is "why are some people trying to make meta a really
> clean and boring place" while it is supposed to be first of all a place
> for all of us to work together and possibly relax a bit from the stress
> of the projects ?
>
> What escape me is "why trying to keep the place absolutely clean when it
> is only a personal site ?"
>
>
> I would like to recall something I read on meatball a long time ago.
>
> A wiki is a public place, and as all public places, editors are required
> to follow strict rules. Such as in wikipedia, writing only stuff that is
> encyclopedic and neutral. This causes stress.
>
> It is very important to reserve personal place to editors so that they
> can let themselves go beyond the rules of the public places. Such as
> being biaised or putting some political rant.
>
> Meta is such a place, where we can also share some funny and
> constructive moments; this also builds the community. And when editors
> feel confortable, they also join the fun and put new important proposal.
>
> It does mean that meta should host full projects of course, but it is
> WITHIN meta role to host projects which some poeple are trying to set up.
>
> Such projects should not "survive" deletion. They should NOT be on votes
> for deletion.
>
> Ihmo.
>
> Or... let's create another meta to really brainstorm on.
>
>
> Ant
>
>

meta is a Wiki about Wikipedia. It's not Wikipedia. It's about
Wikipedia, Wikipedians, and MediaWiki. It has pages, not articles. No
deletions should be taking place like this. There doesn't need to be VFD
on meta at all.

- --
Alphax
GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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body:
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Hash: SHA1

Richard Rabinowitz wrote:
>
> On Sat, 21 May 2005, Alphax wrote:
>
[snip]
>>
>> IIRC, this whole debate was over whether AD/BC was NPOV or not.
>
>
> Well, it's not, but it's better than no dating system at all, and,
> besides, much of the world already uses it. Besides, it goes better
> with the seasons than Islam's calendar (although Islamic dating would
> go well with any lunar colonies we set up in the future).
>

I agree.

>
>>> Alphax writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you feel you are being forced to use Christian terminology,
>>>> why use the Christian date system at all? CE is still based
>>>> (albeit incorrectly) on the birthdate of one Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>
>
>
> Because incorrect is better than correct when it comes to NPOV. At
> least the mistakes enhance the possibility of neutrality.
>

Again, I agree.

>
>>> Stop being disingenous.  We all agree that the numeric dating
>>> system currently in use has to be the one that is used in all
>>> articles.  It is just the Jesus-worshipping honorifics (BC/AD)
>>> that some of us object to.  The growing consensus in the academic
>>> community is to use religion-neutral terms such as BCE/CE.
>>>
>>
>> And some of us object to the arrogant attitude that the time period
>> aka. AD is common to anyone but Christians, when clearly it is not.
>> It just happens to be the dating system used by most of the world.
>> Renaming it "Common Era", ie. removing the only name which has any
>> significance - Anno Domini - is as bad as Holocaust denial.
>
>
> Or, as one might prefer, "After Dragons", "Anonymous Dating",
> "According to Dennis", "Anno Dundee"....
>

Yes! Let's change it to "According to Dennis" - totally factual AND NPOV!

>
>> Heres somthing that everyone should read - the Anno Domini article:
>>
>>
>> "*Anno Domini* (Latin: "In the year of the Lord"), or more
>> completely *Anno Domini Nostri Jesu Christi* ("in the year of our
>> Lord Jesus Christ"), commonly abbreviated *AD* or *A.D.*, is the
>> designation used to number years in the dominant *Christian Era* in
>> the world today.... The Christian Era is the only system in
>> everyday use in the Western World, and the main system for
>> commercial and scientific use in the rest of the world. In academic
>> historical and archaeological circles, particularly in the United
>> States, the same epoch is sometimes referred to as the Common Era
>> (CE) and the BC period as Before the Common Era (BCE)."
>
>
> The Dundee, in my conception (named in honor of Crocodile Dundee) is
> the point in time that the monk named Dennis decided was Jesus's
> birth, even though he was mistaken... but, thanks to his mistakes,
> the Dundee isn't really a defining moment at all, more like a
> non-moment!
>

So Year 0 is the Dundee. I see.

>
>>> Again, stop pretending that all members of this list are
>>> illiterate. We understand fully how Protestant Chrisitan
>>> fundamentalists define this term.
>>>
>>
>> I'm interested to hear how *you* define fundamentalist. If you take
>> it to mean someone who actually believes in what they say, as
>> opposed to someone who just says things without meaning it, then
>> you are worth less than a grain of sand, for even a grain of sand
>> will follow logic.
>
>
> A fundamentalist is a hard-liner, a person who takes the party line
> on various matters. For one to be a fundamentalist, he or she has to
> be part of a group, and he or she has to agree on most or all of what
> his or her group says, and he or she has to act on those sayings. ("A
> group" can include people who adhere strictly to some dictates of a
> holy book. - dictates that the group agrees on, of course.)
>

I guess we really are building Fundiepedia then - Wikipedians are a
group of hard-liners who take the party line (policy) on various
matters, are part of a group (have usernames & call themselves
Wikipedians) and act on those sayings (edit Wikipedia). And policy can
be regarded as a holy book, since I have heard (several times) Jimbo
referred to as the "God-King".

>
>>> You also seem ignorant (in the literal sense of the term) of US
>>> law.
>>>
>>
>> In that you are correct; I don't live in the US, so I have no
>> reason to know what US law is. The concepts of Freedom of Speech
>> and Religion I speak of are like the concept of Free as in Freedom.
>>
>
>
> Read the U.S. Bill of Rights. It shouldn't be too long, although the
> sentence structure is rather archaic and therefore wordy.
>

Now why isn't that on Wikisource? (reading... done)

First Amendment of the US Constitution reads:
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
> assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now I don't see anything in there about harrassment or proselytization,
but I also wouldn't know where to go looking through the 200-odd years
of relevent case law to find it. Anyway, IANAL.

>>>> We live in a society that has seen the marginalisation,
>>>> desecration and humilitation of Jesus Christ.
>>>
>>> Are you joking, or trying to start a holy war against all
>>> non-fundamentalist Christians?
>>
>> Well, it's the truth. As of, oh, now, I am being persecuted for
>> speaking out about this. And no, I don't believe in holy war, and I
>> still don't know what you mean by fundamentalist.
>
>
> Well, of course us non-Christians are going to nitpick and poke fun
> at Jesus. He may have been a nice guy, but, frankly, Jesus is more
> important to the Christians than to the non-Christians.
>

And I disagree, but respect your belief.

I don't see why people need to jump up and down whenever they hear
"Jesus", "Hell", "God", "salvation", "ressurection", "Church", "Bible"
etc. If people did the same when they heard "Prophet", "Allah",
"Qur'an", "Muhammad", "Mecca", "Mosque" etc, they'd be accused of being
"racist" and "islamophobic". Does not Christianity deserve the same respect?

>
>>> It is enraged fundamentalists like you who start inquisitions,
>>> crusades and jihads.
>>
>> Luckily for you, you are mistaken.
>>
>>
>>> I hope other Wiki-En editors are keeping a close eye on your
>>> submissions.
>>>
>>
>> Now why would that be?
>
>
> No clue.
>

Me neither. Good night.

- --
Alphax
GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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subject:
[WikiEN-l]
	Re:[Wikipedia-l]Schoolsonen:(wasDoImisunderstandWikipedia

body:
JAY JG (jayjg at hotmail.com) [050521 02:34]:

> >And are you asserting this is regular practice? Or did people issue lots of
> >"keep" votes in response to an unreasonable flood of nominations? Are the
> >words "unclean hands" applicable to this protest?

> As you well know, the history of organized school inclusionism long
> precedes this particular and very recent set of school VfDs, and even
> stooped to the level of sockpuppet voting.

So you don't mean of late, your evidence of robotic voting closely
resembles the editing pattern of several of us you're arguing this point
with, and you mean the one (it was one) person running a pile of
sockpuppets you will now see absent.

So if Tony or I can be classed as "schools inclusionists", does that mean
we're doing robotic voting with insinuations of sockpuppetry, are these
other people you fingered as robo-voters even though the complained-of
voting pattern resembles ours running sockpuppets, or what do you mean?
Your stated concern is not staying constant in the course of the discussion.

You are notably failing to acknowledge that placing fifty schools at once
on VFD could possibly be a provocative act that could arouse great
attention, really upset people and in fact cause people to get involved, as
Tony documents in detail. Do you see that it could be taken that way?

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article validation feature (again) in 1.5?

body:
Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050521 03:16]:

> You could do it all along: just go to "Special pages", "Validate page",
> "Manage", Add a topic, a number (2 or above), check the checkbox, and
> there's your topic, for everyone and his/her dog to vote on!
> Maybe not *that* intuitive, on second thought ;-)
> Anyway, this should be limited to admins or buerocrats or something on
> the live site. We don't want people to add a million topics to vote on,
> even on a wiki. Too many choices, not healthy...

Definitely. Bureaucrat or steward.

> I've already added a topic "Strangeness", ranging from 1-5, and an
> "Include on DVD?", ranging from 1-2; the latter will be automagically
> displayed as "yes/no".
> OK, now go play! :-)

I just added "NPOV", range 1-4. How do I validate a version of an article?
http://test.leuksman.com/index.php?title=CompEd&action=validate&oldid=3281
gave me the chance to rate what I thought was that version, although the
"View this revision" link was
http://test.leuksman.com/index.php?title=CompEd&oldid= (no actual ID). I
clicked radio buttons and hit "OK". I'm not sure anything is registered;
certainly nothing shows up at
http://test.leuksman.com/index.php?title=CompEd&action=validate&mode=list .

http://test.leuksman.com/index.php?title=CompEd&action=validate&rcid=3281
gives the same result.

What should be happening and what's the URL to validate a particular
version?

(Also, where do we put this in the interface? Probably not a 'validate'
link next to every version in the history. A link on each version when it's
displayed, including current version?)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l]Re:[Wikipedia-l]Schoolsonen:(wasDoImisunderstandWikipedia

body:
JAY JG (jayjg at hotmail.com) [050521 05:35]:

> That said, I'm wary of letting the list bog down in interminable debates,
> as it so often does, and in any event I don't particularly enjoy being so
> publically at odds with people that I respect.  Perhaps you can respond
> with a summation/last word, and then we can take this to private e-mail.

My last email was unduly snarky and somewhat querulous, and I do apologise
to you and to the list.

Hopefully the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Schools]] will reach something
everyone can live with. It seems to be generating useful compromise ideas
nicely and discussing the actual issues a bit. I just really really really
don't want a vote on anything there until it's definitely cooked.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
Andries Krugers Dagneaux (andrieskd at chello.nl) [050521 05:35]:

> I notice that lately articles on the Featured article Candidates are
> often longer, sometimes almost twice, than the recommended size of 32k
> and nobody complains anymore about it. Personally, I do not object to
> articles that have a size <64k but I do have a problem with the
> inconsistent enforcement of standards for size that are now used.
> For example, some contributors oppose to an article about [[Germany]]
> larger than 32k. A comparable article like the [[United States]] has a
> size of 61k.
> I request consistent enforcement of this recommendation or a more
> lenient recommendation e.g. <64k.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany
>  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_size>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_size

The 32k limit used to be quite strongly agreed with on FAC, then 172 came
along with several excellent articles that were very lengthy indeed. He
argued that that was what it took to cover the subject properly, even with
many breakouts into sub-articles, and enough people agreed that the
articles got through.

The 32k limit was of course originally because of broken browser behaviour
with text boxes over 32k. As it happens, some (including me) think it's a
good recommended maximum length for an article for readability - there
should be a compelling reason to go over six thousand words. But
considerations like 172's (subject requires it, article is really good)
still get past. So if the Germany article should get by even being over
32k, the nominator would probably have to convince people the subject
required it for proper coverage. (Which I can well see being likely.)

FAC requires a ridiculously high and sometimes inconsistent standard, and
is a tremendous amount of work and often very frustrating for nominators.
I'm not sure what can be done about this without [[m:instruction creep]].

- d.


body:
Gregory Maxwell (gmaxwell at gmail.com) [050521 05:55]:
> On 5/19/05, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:

> > I fixed it (hopefully) and asked Brion to turn it on again.

> nitpick: When you click the validate tab the page that comes up shows
> under the article tab, it should stay under the validate tab.

Ah. Is the interface only present in Monobook? I've been using Classic.

- d.


body:
Gerard Meijssen (gerard.meijssen at gmail.com) [050521 05:50]:

> When people create Wikipedia content in Meta, it is easy to indentify
> that it is in the wrong place. It is ever so nice that using a VfD
> system, proper notice is given that it should not be there. This gives
> the proper notice that something should be done about it. One of these
> things is: discuss it. :)

So how does that square with people being told on this list to create a
test version on Meta if they want a new language Wikipedia?

Can anyone answer this?

- d.


body:
Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050521 06:29]:
> David Gerard schrieb:

> > Ah. Is the interface only present in Monobook? I've been using Classic.

> Yes, I didn't figure out where to put the tab thingy in Classic. Who
> designed that damned thing anyway?
> Oh, wait...

Shall I report a bug on it working in the One True Skin then? ;-)

The feature looks nice in Monobook and seems to make sense. Are you taking
bug reports yet, and shall we start discussing what aspects need rating?

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Article rating feature being tested for 1.5!

body:
Brion's switched it on, and Magnus' article validation feature is now
running on http://test.leuksman.com/ - the MediaWiki 1.5 test wiki.
So far it only works in Monobook, but that's enough to get the idea.
Basically, you can quality-rate a given revision of an article on various
criteria. There's a tab at the top marked "Validate".

Create an account and play with it. Then think hard about how to implement
this on en: and what criteria you think would be good.

The plan for now is just to gather data, not release it, then release it in
one go and see what sense people can make of it. Then we can decide what to
actually do with the numbers.

- d.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Article validation feature (again) in
	1.5?

body:
Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050521 07:42]:

> and shall we start discussing what aspects need rating?
> I just started
>  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/En_validation_topics

Ah good! I just mentioned the validation feature on wikien-l. People will
want to go to that page.

- d.


from_name: Alexander Sigachov

subject: [Wikitech-l] Request to maintain language file

body:
Hi all,

meta:Development_policy wrote:
>Our current policy for handing out CVS access is very liberal...
>If you just intend to maintain language files, CVS access can be
granted even without prior participation in development.

I think I can help Wikipedia as maintainer of Russain language file
and language files of other languages of Russian Federation (Tatar,
Ossetian, Chuvash...).

I have done several uptodate patches for LanguageRu.php (in Bugzilla:
1455, 1635, 1846, 1998, 2191). Also, my contribution is reports (1335, 1338,
1890, 2190) about bugs in Language.php

About me (meta:user:ajvol):
I'm 6-th year student of Moscow State Technical University. One of the
most active sysop in Russian Wikipedia (
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/TablesWikipediaRU.htm )

--
Cxion la plej helan,
Alexander Sigachov


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Notes from the last Board meeting

body:
Michael Snow a ?crit:
> Angela wrote:
>
>> Jimmy will talk to Daniel Mayer about access to the Foundation's bank
>> account.
>>
>>
> Speaking of financial matters generally, I believe there was some
> preliminary discussion about the next fundraising cycle recently. While
> it might not yet be time to kick that into gear, there is still the
> matter of having direct credit-card payment processing set up. As of the
> last fundraiser, I understood that was going to happen in relatively
> short order, but so far I see no sign of it as a donation option. Could
> we get an update on that?
>
> --Michael Snow

Four additional points related to fundraising...

1) Since Mav did not have the financial reports yet, we have not been
able to define how much we had left. This should be fixed by monday
hopefully.

2) Since we got no clearly defined feedback from the developers about
what to purchase and when, we could not discuss technical needs. We
still need some feedback on the topic. Matters are complicated by the
on-going setting up of hosting and donation deals.

3) The french organisation now have a valid bank account

4) I suggest we find some new and original fundraising methods. A recent
fundraising was very efficient to raise 28000 dollars on a goal of
50000. Unfortunately, the paypal account appear to have been blocked
before the account was blocked. Still.... I guess it shows people have
money :-) See  http://www.savetoby.com/

Ant


from_name: Jean-Christophe Chazalette

body:
Excellent. May 25th being my birthday, I'll take the annoucement as a
conjunction of stars.
villy ~~ JC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthere" <anthere9 at yahoo.com>
To: "Wikimedia Commons Discussion List" <commons-l at wikimedia.org>;
<foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: [Commons-l] STOP Translations needed: Wikimedia Commons reaches
100, 000 uploads

| It would be best to wait a few days before sending
| this press release.
|
| More precisely it would be best to wait on the 25th...
| because there will be an announcement about
| wikicommons on that date. This announcement is not yet
| public but will be made public on the 25th.
|
| Aurevilly has already written an announcement for it,
| in english.
|
| It might be useful to see if both releases could not
| be merged in one... I suggest the parties involved in
| the commons press release discuss this before any
| publishing of this one.
|
| Anthere
|
|
| --- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
| > The press release is almost done at:
| >
| >
| http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press_releases/100K
| >
| > If someone wants to write a background section on
| > what wikis are etc.,
| > that might be a useful addition. Beyond that, please
| > make minor fixes,
| > and help to translate it into as many languages as
| > possible. We can
| > start sending this out on Monday. It doesn't need to
| > be done in all
| > languages simultaneously; if some need a few more
| > days, that's fine.
| >
| > As noted in the release, the 100,000th file, by my
| > count, is:
| >
| http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Dataflowfiringnodes.png
| >
| > All best,
| >
| > Erik
| > _______________________________________________
| > Commons-l mailing list
| > Commons-l at wikimedia.org
| > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
| >
|
| __________________________________________________
| Do You Yahoo!?
| Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
| http://mail.yahoo.com
| _______________________________________________
| Commons-l mailing list
| Commons-l at wikimedia.org
| http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: sco/fiu-vro in danger..

body:
This is not the first time meta is used to test things before they are
set (or even if there are never set). Be it new policies, new templates,
new languages of existing projects or even new projects.

I think it is really okay.

A good habit is typically to delete all these articles after the issue
is resolved. This has been done quite often : the authors of such test
pages often put them for deletion after they have become useless.

I think it is good management to let people room, provided they do not
abuse the public space.

Ant

Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> Well, Angela and Anthere both seem to endorse it.
>
> The idea actually started with, I believe, the Cantonese debate where
> Felix Wan decided to go start a Cantonese Test-wikipedia to show
> people that it really /can/ be done.
>
> I encouraged him, not thinking much about it being against the rules of meta.
>
> After that, I personally suggested the same thing to Amikeco, the
> founder of the Ossetic Wikipedia, although he had already created an
> off-site demo.
>
> I suggested the same thing for Scots a while back, in fact I started
> it myself and let actual Scotsmen populate it with content.
>
> Seelterfraisk was started by HaafLimbo iirc (his username at the
> Limburgish Wikipedia where I seem it most often because I still have
> it in my list of Wikipedias I monitor, he's called Wouter Steenbeek on
> the list I think), at my suggestion.
>
> I personally started Skandinavisk as a test case to see how a bit of
> clever language planning might positively effect the Scandinavian
> Wikipedia community. As anybody who knows any Scandinavian language
> will see, it is not quite Danish or Bokm?l, but not quite Swedish
> either and not Nynorsk. (definitely not Icelandic or Faroese). It is
> an attempt at an artificially-engineered Scandinavian "happy medium"
> and I have so far only used it in the context of test-wp.
>
> Fiu-vro was created entirely without my knowledge, and I believe that
> (and its use of the main article space rather than
> /test-wp/fiu-vro/ARTICLENAME) is what alerted Aphralagia to the
> existance of the essperimentu.
>
> Salutatziones
> Mark
>
> On 20/05/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>>David Gerard wrote:
>>
>>>So how does that square with people being told on this list to create a
>>>test version on Meta if they want a new language Wikipedia?
>>>
>>>Can anyone answer this?
>>
>>Maybe whoever told them that could explain it. It seems a bit odd.
>>
>>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>


from_name: Nicolas Weeger

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki selected for Trophées du Libre

body:
> The awards ceremony will be held in Soissons, France on May 26. Can
> someone attend representing the project?

Delphine (notafish) volunteered, but of course others can go!
She's not a developer or anything, but member of Wikim?dia France, so
that should do it if no one else can go.

> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Nicolas


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Part of good writing is prioritizing what information should be presented up
> front to readers vs what can be best dealt with in other related articles. Some
> points:
> *Readers should have the ability to zoom to the level of detail they need.
> Having all the detail on one page does not allow for that.
> *Do this by summarizing and providing links to more detailed treatments on
> those sub topics.
> *What matters is that Wikipedia has lots of detail on a topic, not that all
> that detail is on the same page.

Absolutely. Just because wiki is not paper does not mean that the old
book encyclopaedia editors weren't on to something when they
encouraged brevity. The various articles on cities (eg. [[Melbourne]])
are good examples of breaking a long topic into subsections.

The other issue for a wiki is that 32k of wiki markup translates into
many more kb of HTML that has to be rendered in the browser. A couple
of bytes of template call can mean many more bytes of HTML. This needs
to be remembered.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Validation feature update

body:
David Gerard wrote:

>Anthere (anthere9 at yahoo.com) [050522 01:22]:
>
>
>It's editorial work on the project like any other. How good you are with
>ratings is as much part of your reputation as how good you are with edits.
>I don't see any reason *not* to make it as public as any other editorial
>work.
>
>
Indeed, since a key factor regarding how I would treat a rating or
review is the reputation of the reviewer I think it's _necessary_ to
keep track of these sorts of things. This isn't like scientific peer
review where one at least has a reasonable guarantee that the reviewers
know the subject matter; any J. Random Yahoo could be doing the rating
in this case (I'm assuming it'll be pretty open or it won't scale well).
People could also wind up rating their own work, which should be noted.

On the other hand, we don't make watchlists public so giving a list of
all reviewed articles might not be a good idea. Maybe just make reviews
show up in user contributions along with other edits, so recent work is
theoretically available for checking but it slides off over the horizon
of history after a while.


subject:
[Foundation-l] STOP Translations needed: Wikimedia Commons reaches
	100, 000 uploads

body:
Anthere:
> It would be best to wait a few days before sending
> this press release.
>
> More precisely it would be best to wait on the 25th...
> because there will be an announcement about
> wikicommons on that date. This announcement is not yet
> public but will be made public on the 25th.
>

I see. I was wondering why you had changed the date, but this makes
perfect sense. I'll get in touch with Villy and coordinate.

Erik


from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Foundation-l] A license for the Ultimate Wiktionary

body:
Just taking this off-topic a little. I just read RFC2229 (DICT), and
it states that it uses UTF-8. I thought thier were various problems
with using UTF-8, regarding asian languages, but i could be wrong...
btw, where are the discussion pages and what not for ultimate wiki.

I am so very excited about the possiblities.

paz y amor,
-rjs

--
hit me: <robin.shannon.id.au>
jab me: <robin.shannon at jabber.org.au>

This work is released into the public domain.
<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain>


body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Alphax wrote:
>
>>
>> meta is a Wiki about Wikipedia. It's not Wikipedia. It's about
>> Wikipedia, Wikipedians, and MediaWiki. It has pages, not articles. No
>> deletions should be taking place like this. There doesn't need to be VFD
>> on meta at all.
>>
> Hoi,
> Thank you for your definition. The only problem with it is, it that it
> is wrong. Meta is about WikiMedia and its projects. It is about
> Wikimedians and the communities they belong to. If you care for what we
> are, in Meta you find that it is about all knowledge in all languages
> and providing it Freely to all people of this world and how we want to
> do this.
>

There are wikis other than Wikipedia? :)

Yes, meta is Wikimedia central (while not being Wikimedia.org). The
co-ordination point for Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Commons etc.

> When people create Wikipedia content in Meta, it is easy to indentify
> that it is in the wrong place. It is ever so nice that using a VfD
> system, proper notice is given that it should not be there. This gives
> the proper notice that something should be done about it. One of these
> things is: discuss it. :)

Ok, maybe it does need VfD - but surely the test wikis shouldn't just be
deleted because they have encylopedic content?

- --
Alphax
GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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subject: [Foundation-l] Re: license evolution

body:
How about this for a draft license:

Wikimedia license 1.0

Preamble,
this only exists to give us an escape route if need be

1.
Anything distributed under this license must conform to the terms and
conditions of the CC-Wiki license or the GFDL license or the CC-BY-SA
license.

2.
Anything licensed under this license will also be licensed under any
later version of this license.

------
If we put that into lawyer language, then we don't really have a
proper license, but have the ability to add in another clause in a
later version saying "and it must confom to the terms of the
foo-licnese". Hence the wikimedia foundation can in effect add a new
licnese which which will be backwards compatable when ever the need
may come up.

i dont know if this is actually legaly possible, but it might be worth a shot.

paz y amor,
-rjs

--
hit me: <robin.shannon.id.au>
jab me: <robin.shannon at jabber.org.au>

This work is released into the public domain.
<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain>


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: license evolution


body:
Ok, having had a look on wikipedia, and not finding anything, i
withdraw this claim,  and claim amnesia.
Sorry.

paz y amor,
-rjs

2005/5/21, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>:
> Robin Shannon wrote:
> > Just taking this off-topic a little. I just read RFC2229 (DICT), and
> > it states that it uses UTF-8. I thought thier were various problems
> > with using UTF-8, regarding asian languages, but i could be wrong...
>
> Such as...?
>
> We're already using UTF-8 for everything except a few of the older
> European-language Wikipedias which are on an 8-bit ISO 8859 encoding,
> and those will be finally converted when we upgrade to 1.5.
>
> While UTF-8 is somewhat less space efficient in that range than some
> alternatives, most alternatives are less convenient for many purposes.
> Its coverage is equal to any other Unicode data encoding, and far easier
> to work with for multilingual text than anything that's not Unicode.

--
hit me: <robin.shannon.id.au>
jab me: <robin.shannon at jabber.org.au>

This work is released into the public domain.
<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain>


from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [Ticket#: 122761] WIKI_META_WOLRDWIDE_STRUCTURE
	of articles

body:
On 20/05/05, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:
> And even then, how do you determine whether to say
> "External link" or "External links"; and when not all are present,
> which non-editable headings are shown?

You always say "External links".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Neilc/External_links#Common_mistakes


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
--- Richard Rabinowitz <rickyrab at eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> College term papers generally are double-spaced. Internet printouts tend
> to be single spaced. Sure you're not taking that into account?

Hm. Good point. I went to a uni whose administration thought writing was very
important. Thus single space. Last time I was asked to double space was high
school.

-- mav

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [Ticket#: 122761]
	WIKI_META_WOLRDWIDE_STRUCTUREof articles

body:
On Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:57 PM, Tomer Chachamu <the.r3m0t at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 20/05/05, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And even then, how do you determine whether to say
> > "External link" or "External links"; and when not all are present,
> > which non-editable headings are shown?
>
> You always say "External links".

No, you say "External link" when there's one, and "External links" when
there are more. We shouldn't give the impression that we're innumerate.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Neilc/External_links#Common_mistakes

"Personally I don't like articles that have an "External link" section"

Well, gosh, that must be what we should all do. It's a personal comment on a
user page and /everything/.

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: license evolution

body:
Delphine M?nard wrote:

>On 5/21/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Robin Shannon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>How about this for a draft license:
>>>
>>>Wikimedia license 1.0
>>>
>>>Preamble,
>>>this only exists to give us an escape route if need be
>>>
>>>1.
>>>Anything distributed under this license must conform to the terms and
>>>conditions of the CC-Wiki license or the GFDL license or the CC-BY-SA
>>>license.
>>>
>>>2.
>>>Anything licensed under this license will also be licensed under any
>>>later version of this license.
>>>
>>>------
>>>If we put that into lawyer language, then we don't really have a
>>>proper license, but have the ability to add in another clause in a
>>>later version saying "and it must confom to the terms of the
>>>foo-licnese". Hence the wikimedia foundation can in effect add a new
>>>licnese which which will be backwards compatable when ever the need
>>>may come up.
>>>
>>>i dont know if this is actually legaly possible, but it might be worth a shot.
>>>
>>>
>>I don't know about the legal possibility, but I would question the
>>ethics.  What it's saying is, "It doesn't matter what you agree to
>>because we can unilaterally change it later anyway."
>>
>>
>
>The last part is actually absolutely not legal. Soufron pointed it out
>earlier, you can't agree to a contract you have not seen. And it makes
>sense too, what if the people in charge of the "next version" of the
>licence decided that new version did not allow commercial use, or
>suddenly were theirs. It is I think what Soufron attempted to point
>out when he said we should have our own licence, leaving Wikipedia in
>the hands of "other people" no matter how much we agree with them,
>carries a part of "unknown" in itself. Not to say that I am for a
>Wikipedia license, but as it stands today, the GFDL template that
>stipulates "or any later version published by the Free Software
>Foundation" (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:GFDL) is highly
>illegal. Or rather, does not make sense.
>
I noticed that clause with some  concern quite some time ago, though I
didn't comment on it.  Article 10 of the licence deals with furute
revisions, and at first glance appears to deal with the point.
Nevertheless, even there I am not completely comfortable with it.  The
article appears to give people a choice about which version whould
apply.  That's fine when you're dealing with the handful of articles
that a person might put onto his personal website, but it creates
potential complications when many users are involved.  A person who
contributes today may not like a GFDL version that appears five years
later when he (or his heirs) are no longer reachable.

GFDL version 1.2 was officially published in November 2002; I don't know
when the change appeared on Wikipedia pages.  This means that only about
300 of our contributors would have been here when version 1.1 was in
effect.  Many of these, of course, may have only made trivial
non-copyrightable changes to the database.  I think that the words "or
any later version" should be removed from the notice before it starts to
matter; as I read the licence such an option would be consistent with
the terms of the licence.  If at a later time a version 1.3 comes into
being it could then be stated that it applies only to contributions made
after some specified date.

I favour a Wikipedia licence in principle, but I am extremely wary about
heading in that direction.  There are just too many dangers.  For
myself, I have consciously avoided dual licensing my own contributions,
because the implications are very unclear.

One egregious omission from the licence is a statement of jurisdiction.
What country's (or state's) laws apply.  As long as the contributors are
all from the same country this is not a big problem.  Within the United
States copyright is a federal matter so specifying a particular statemay
be less important.  How the licence would be viewed in foreign courts is
a big open question.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: license evolution


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Fred Bauder wrote:

> The issue is always download speed when we serve a diverse international
> audience and at least make noises about serving the poor and the third
> world. Serving up articles over 100kb long with several images each over
> 200kb will basically stop a slower computer with limited memory operating
> with a modem in its tracks, sometimes even requiring a reboot. Essentially
> the site becomes unusable.
>
It's not only the third world that needs to rely on dialup; the majority
of Internet users in the US -- which, last I checked, was still counted as
one of the developed countries -- still have dialup connections (like
yours truly).

And the primary problem I have with accessing information from Wikipedia
is not the article length (although a concise well-organized article is
always better than a long discursive one, no matter the amount of detail
contained), but the size & number of images.

Maybe I ought to squawk more about those pages where someone has stuffed
into it as many images as they can find about the subject. After all,
EN-Wikipedia isn't the only archive available for usage-free graphics --
even on Wikimedia.

Geoff


from_name: Angela

subject:
[Foundation-l] STOP Translations needed: Wikimedia Commons
	reaches 100, 000 uploads

body:
> > More precisely it would be best to wait on the 25th...
> > because there will be an announcement about
> > wikicommons on that date. This announcement is not yet
> > public but will be made public on the 25th.

I've merged Villy's announcement with the press release from the
Commons at http://grants.wikimedia.org/wiki/Press_releases/Wikimedia_Commons_May_2005
for anyone with access to the grants wiki to edit. On Monday, when the
announcement can be made public, this can be moved back to the
Commons. Since the announcement is quite short compared to the press
release, it may still be useful for people to continue translating the
press release and then to merge the announcement with it on Monday.

Angela.


subject:
[Commons-l] Re: [Foundation-l] STOP Translations needed: Wikimedia
	Commons reaches 100, 000 uploads


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Non-commercial only and By Permission Only Images to	be
	deleted

body:
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Gregory Maxwell wrote:
[snip]
>
> The vast majority of the images we have taken from stock exchange are
> mediocre images of everyday objects that almost any wikipedia with a
> camera could reproduce with little effort.  Of the images I've looked
> at so far I could replace the majority with simllar images before
> sundown.  It's silly to add risk and complexity for a bunch of images
> we could easily replace (door knobs, gumballs, etc). It shows a lack
> of forsight for us to make our collection less useful by clouding the
> waters by mixing in potentially questionable copyright status
> material.

Does anyone have a *free* photo of doughnuts?

- --
Alphax
GnuPG key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/8mpg9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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body:
On 5/21/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've merged Villy's announcement with the press release from the
> Commons at http://grants.wikimedia.org/wiki/Press_releases/Wikimedia_Commons_May_2005

So that people without access to the grants wiki can continue
correcting errors in the press release, I've put it back on the
Commons at <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Press_releases/100K>,
but without the parts that need to remain quiet until the 25th (not
Monday as I wrote previously). Those parts are still at
http://grants.wikimedia.org/wiki/Press_releases/Wikimedia_Commons_May_2005

Angela.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Announcing a policy proposal

body:
Timwi wrote:

> No, we should use the foundation of Wikipedia as a reference-point. It
> is conveniently close to the date we are used as the New Year (only
> two weeks later), so the switch-over will be seamless and painless.
>
> Today is Saturday, 7th May, 4 AW (anno Wikip?di?).

It should be AW 4 instead of 4 AW.  "Anno" is in the ablative case for
"in the year" :-)

Ec


from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] Article size consistency 32k

body:
On 5/21/05, Geoff Burling <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com> wrote:
> Maybe I ought to squawk more about those pages where someone has stuffed
> into it as many images as they can find about the subject. After all,
> EN-Wikipedia isn't the only archive available for usage-free graphics --
> even on Wikimedia.

There are also the alternatives of having a separate image gallery
page, or using {{Commons|pagename}} to link to an image page on
Commons.

-Matt


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
That is kind of a Borg answer. It just doesn't comport with the reality on
the receiving end. When I did use a modem and an older computer long
articles were troublesome. It is difficult to tell now as almost everything
loads.

Fred

> From: Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 22:40:03 +0100
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Article size consistency 32k
>
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>> The issue is always download speed when we serve a diverse international
>> audience and at least make noises about serving the poor and the third
>> world. Serving up articles over 100kb long with several images each over
>> 200kb will basically stop a slower computer with limited memory operating
>> with a modem in its tracks, sometimes even requiring a reboot. Essentially
>> the site becomes unusable.
>
> The size of the article source text has little correlation with the size
> of the HTML output, so that argument is not relevant to this discussion.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Validation feature update

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have just updated the validation feature in CVS (soon on the leuksman
site, I hope...)

The main news is that you can now see the ratings and comments for a
specific version of an article. These are shown as a table (topics in
columns, users in rows).

I have treated the "user anonymity problem" by showing the user IDs
rather than their names. So, in its current state, it *is* possible to
find the user who did the rating, but it requires actual work :-)

Would a page of all ratings from a specific *user* be of general
interest? I think someone suggested it, but...

In other news, it now tells you when it has stored your ratings, similar
to saving your user options.

Magnus
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from_name: Delirium

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: A license for the Ultimate Wiktionary

body:
Michael Snow wrote:

> Jean-Baptiste Soufron wrote:
>
>> changing the license of a running project is difficult, but not that
>> much.
>
>
> I'm skeptical about this claim, as I think it's much easier said than
> done.
>
> Does anyone know of collaborative projects that have actually switched
> licenses entirely, even in the software world?

Mozilla did, and it was a huge project with thousands of contributors.
They basically started emailing people asking for permission to do the
change, raised some publicity so hopefully some people they couldn't
find email addresses for would become aware of the change, and then
started replacing/rewriting code from people who they couldn't contact
or who didn't give permission.

For more, see their relicensing FAQ:
http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/relicensing-faq.html

-Mark


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
After talking with Villy, we have agreed to set the date to May 23,
since this is when the "secret" announcement will become public.

All best,

Erik