subject: [WikiEN-l] My reply to Michael Snow's personal feeling re: Wikipedia

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

>Indeed.
>Do NOT throw out the good with the bad, as I do
>actually suspect has really happened here and as
often
>as NOT, David.
>
"My personal feeling about Wikipedia is that sometimes
it is necessary to
"throw out the good with the bad." The "good", in this
instance, I see
as the contribution of alternative points of view that
when appropriately presented bring our encyclopedia
closer to NPOV."

So Michael feels that "sometimes it is necessary to"
throw out maintaining the NPOV with alternative pov's?

When it does "suit" his or his ilk's own POV?????

"The "bad", in contrast, is having someone direct
numerous offensive statements at other Wikipedians."

Michael Snow doesn't seem to think it "bad" when
either he and his "ilk" direct numerous and FALSE
offensive statements at other Wikipedians, though,
does he? That is a "double-standard" that other
Wikipedians might not appreciate, as I most certainly
do NOT!

"I am not going to weigh the good and bad brought to
Wikipedia by Mr. Paul Vogel. That is for the
arbitration committee to do."

Indeed, and I will review with the same arbitration
committee the good and bad brought to Wikipedia by NOT
walking the TALK of maintaining the Wiki NPOV and of
NOT enforcing Wiki Policies fairly and without such
pov DOUBLE-STANDARDS, Michael.

"But there is no reason to be ashamed of throwing out
the good with the bad, if the bad
is more than we can tolerate."

When you in your pov can't tolerate the NPOV, that is?
There is plenty to be "ashamed of" and if you or your
own "ilk" or "group" just can't maintain any Wiki NPOV
here and if one can't they should be the ones to
actually "leave", or be blocked, banned, or censored
from this Wiki Encyclopedia Project.

"There are other sources of the same good
(with the double meaning of "good" as in commodity),
and we can get it without having to poison our
community."

The NPOV is NOT any commodity, anymore than the TRUTH
is a commodity.

How does maintaining the NPOV ever "poison" any
"community", unless of course, your idea of
"community" is based only and solely upon falsehood,
upon lying hypocrisy, upon pov bigotry, and upon pov
censorship of any alternative and therefore NPOV's?

Paul Vogel
http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
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list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Mr Paul Vogel

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Ilk" defined for Fred.

body:
"It's a word that comes out of old English, "tailors
and their ilk" is equivalent to "tailors and such"."

So what?

This is the way I meant "ilk", Fred.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

3 entries found for ilk.
To select an entry, click on it.
  ilk[1,pronoun]ilk[2,noun]ilk[3,pronoun]

Main Entry: 2ilk
Function: noun
: SORT, KIND <the rejection of these books or others
of like ilk -- Kathleen Molz>

"However this word in modern times carries
a strong negative connotation and violates our policy
against personal
attacks (without delivering any significant
information). Basically just a
throwaway piss word."

Ilk has a "strong negative connotation"!!!??? LOL! :D

On the contrary, it just and only means "sort" or
"kind".

It is neither any "personal attack" and nor is it
any so-called "throwaway piss word".

I have a question for you.
Do you want to edit here? Or is quarreling and
fussing what you are really up to. Think about it.

I have the same question for you, Fred.
If you are going to edit here, Fred, you really should
know the actual meaning of words, before making any
such comments.
Factual accuracy and a NPOV within articles is what I
am really up to, and not pov "quarreliing and
fussing".
Maybe you should look in the mirror and then think
about that fact and about your own self and about that
"ilk" that is always trying to block, ban, and censor
me, for only their own pov verses the Wiki NPOV?

Paul Vogel
http://www.cosmotheism.net

> From: Mr Paul Vogel <bannedneedle at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at
Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 07:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Cc: bannedneedle at yahoo.com
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism?
>
> I highly recommend that you do look the word "ilk"
> up in the dictionary, Fred, as it fits this lying
and
> hypocritical mob here that is falsely attempting to
> have me blocked, banned, and censored

__________________________________
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from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Ilk

body:
It's a word that comes out of old English, "tailors and their ilk" is
equivalent to "tailors and such". However this word in modern times carries
a strong negative connotation and violates our policy against personal
attacks (without delivering any significant information). Basically just a
throwaway piss word.

I have a question for you. Do you want to edit here? Or is quarreling and
fussing what you are really up to. Think about it.

Fred

> From: Mr Paul Vogel <bannedneedle at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 07:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Cc: bannedneedle at yahoo.com
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism?
>
> I highly recommend that you do look the word "ilk"
> up in the dictionary, Fred, as it fits this lying and
> hypocritical mob here that is falsely attempting to
> have me blocked, banned, and censored


subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration: matter of Paul Vogel

body:
Paul Vogel wrote:

> "Paul Vogel wrote: a bunch of hysterics"
>
> Paul Vogel wrote a "bunch of hysterics"? or an ilk
of
> lying hypocrites have, David, in a bigoted attempt
to
> have me BANNED, BLOCKED, and CENSORED????
>
> "Paul, I advise you to cease your campaign of
flooding
> the mailing list with your complaints."
>
> I advise you to cease your "personal insults" of
> "hysterics". The mailing list needs to be made aware
of this "ilk" or group of censorious pov bigots that
are falsely attempting to block, ban, or censor me.

I'm sorry if you were insulted by my use of the word
"hysterics" but
your messages did seem to me to be characterized by
overwhelming
emotional excess. Please note however, that I didn't
call you
"hysterical". I simply characterized your complaints
as "hysterics".

I do find it "interesting" that you have pov only
"characterized" my complaints as being "hysterics",
when the ones that are actually engaging in
"hysterics" are an ilk of censorious pov bigots that
are falsely slandering and lying, and hypocritically
blocking, banning, and pov censoring me?

> "They are inappropriately offensive and this list
> is an inappropriate place to engage in such
> arguments."
>
> It is offensive and inappropriate for you to defend
> any such ilks censorship,lying hypocrisy, and
selfish bigotry.

Perhaps it is offensive or inappropriate of me to
defend "ilks censorship", whatever that is, but that
doesn't change the fact that your behavior was
inappropriate and I don't see any evidence on your
part to acknowledge that you are behaving
inappropriately. This is about
you, not me.

It was both offensive and inappropriate for you to
defend this "ilks" censorship, lying hypocrisy, and
bigoted slander, and that same kind of biased pov
"behavior" is actually about you and is not about me.

> "If you have complaints about how you or your ideas
> are being treated, I invite you to follow the
> procedures outlined in
>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution".
>
> I already had, and they fell on deaf ears, David.

Your request for arbitration is still active. Once
four arbitrators
approve hearing the case, then the case will move
forward into
arbitration. This part of dispute resolution does not
move quickly, so I
  advise you to be calm and patient while the matter
is in arbitration.

I have been both calm and patient but I will not be
silenced by pov bigots and I will let everyone within
the Wikipedia community know whether or not actual
"justice" and actual "fairness" is being served and
observed in my case, and without any biased pov
DOUBLE-STANDARDS.

> "The postings you have made to the mailing list
today are not likely to be looked kindly upon by the
members of the arbitration committee if your case
should appear before them."
>
> Only if they themselves are bigots, and do refuse to
> see the factual evidence that is made available to
> them.

Calling people names and making other ad hominem
attacks is inappropriate. Your postings to the mailing
list today contained such attacks in violation of
Wikipedia policy. Those are facts that the arbitrators
will consider.

On the contrary, those are NOT the FACTS, they are
only your own biased pov.
The facts actually are that some here are only
enforcing DOUBLE-STANDARDS, and some here are falsely
slandering me in a bigoted and pov attempt to have me
blocked, banned, and censored.
Those are the actual facts that the arbitrators should
really consider, if they are not bigoted pov censors
and are not slanderous and lying hypocrites,
themselves.

> "I would like to point out to you that there have
been
> previous instances when exteremly upset Wikipedians
> have gone on posting rampages making
> wild accusations on the mailing list, as you have."
>
> I am sure that this has happened before, with other
> innocent victims, and also with some well and with
> some deserving "Trolls" and "Vandals", which I am
NOT.

I have not accused you of being a troll or vandal. I
am just pointing
out that your behavior on the mailing list is in
violation of Wikipedia
policy and you may be subject to sanctions such as
banning as a result
of your behavior.

The "ilk" of which I have been speaking has falsely
slandered and accused me of being a troll or vandal.
The violations of Wiki Policy have been on the part of
these pov hypocritical liars, bigots, and censors that
are enforcing DOUBLE-STANDARDS within Wikipedia.
If this "ilk" are NOT SUBJECT to sanctions based upon
that "behavior" of violation of Wikipedia Policy then
I will not abide by any such DOUBLE-STANDARDS and by
any such UNFAIRNESS of SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT of such
POLICIES.

Your beliefs and ideas that you want to include on
Wikipedia are not in question here. In fact, I have no
idea what they are as I haven't investigated this
dispute at all except for reading your inappropriate
postings to the mailing list.

You have a right to your own pov opinion as to whether
or not my postings to the mailing list are appropriate
or not.
I have seen such postings by others, and yourself
included, that seemed equally "inappropriate" in my
own pov.
So what?

> "All those users have either left Wikipedia or ended
> up permanently banned."
>
> Indeed.
> Do NOT throw out the good with the bad, as I do
> actually suspect has really happened here and as
often
> as NOT.

We here at Wikipedia believe that in order to
participate here, you have
to follow our guidelines and policies for behavior. If
you fail to do
so, you will be subject to sanctions. This information
is very clearly
stated on many pages on Wikipedia.

I don't have any real problem with actually ever doing
so, IF, they are being enforced without ANY pov bias
and without ANY pov DOUBLE-STANDARDS.

> "If you have any interest at all in continuing to
> contribute to Wikipedia, I suggest you
> start behaving within the policies and guidelines
for behavior set by Wikipedia, EVEN IF you believe
that > others are not obeying the policies."
>
> NO!!!
> Either EVERYONE is TREATED EQUALLY, and without ANY
> DOUBLE-STANDARDS, with those POLICIES, or this WIKI
> PROJECT is being run by CENSOROUS and HYPOCRITICAL
> LIARS and POV BIGOTS, David.

This is a false dichotomy. There are many alternate
possibilities.

Really?
What are those many other likely alternative
possibilities?
I don't think so.

Also, again, this screaming and personal attacks are
inappropriate. I am sorry you feel that Wikipedia is
not well-run, but do you really believe that
screaming on the mailing list is going to change any
of that?

I am neither "screaming" nor "personally attacking"
anyone.
Wikipedia will not be well-run if it does not enforce
its own rules and without bias and without such
DOUBLE-STANDARDS.
Those on this mailing list may not wish to stay on
board this project if they see any such biased pov
bigotry and any such DOUBLE-STANDARDS of the
enforcement of Wikipedia Policies and by any such an
"ilk" of censorious and lying hypocrites and pov
slanderous bigots.

> "Two wrongs do not make a right."
>
> Then support the rights, and NOT the WRONGS.
> BE a REAL MAN!

I'm not supporting or rejecting anything. All I've
done is point out to you that your behavior is
unacceptable. It doesn't matter to me what
anyone else did to make you behave this way.

You pointing out my behavior, alone, as what is being
"unacceptable" is just lying hypocrisy.
I consider your pov bias as being "unacceptable".

The only question here that I am considering is your
behavior on the mailing list. I am trying to
maintain civility here on the mailing list and you are
compromising that civility with your name-calling.

I have been quite "civil" on this mailing list,
especially considering the actually false and the
slanderous "name-calling" behavior of your own ilk,
of lying hypocrites and censorious pov bigots, Fred.

Let me be clear: I don't have an issue
with you, I have an issue with your behavior.

Likewise, with your own pov bias, and with the
behavior of the bigoted pov "ilk" that is always
slanderously and quite falsely attempting to have me
blocked, banned, and censored here.

> "Finally, since you seem to have totally flown off
the
> handle, I expect you are unlikely to do any of what
I
> ask."
>
> Indeed. You first. Lead by example.
I do consider your own "person insult" pov of my
having "totally flown off the handle" to just be
another clear example of "the pot calling the kettle
black", or just more "lying hypocrisy", on your own
pov part.

I'm not the one SCREAMING and calling people names,
you are.

I am actually doing neither.
My caps are only to underline or to highlight my main
points and they are not meant to mean screaming,
whatsoever.

> "Don't be surprised, then, when people treat you
> abusively in response to your treating them
> abusively."
>
> Indeed, but, you do always forget that it has been
the other way around. Your own pov bias and lying
hypocrisy is showing.

The only matter that I have made any statement
concerning is your
behavior. Perhaps your claim of my being biased and
hypocritical might
hold some weight if there were another campaign of
complaints being made
to the mailing list that I was ignoring in favor of
focusing on you.

There already is, and as can be clearly seen in the
pov "reactions" to my valid complaints on this here
mailing list.

I see no other such campaign; therefore your
accusations of bias and
hypocrisy are unfounded.

You only "see" what you want to "see", and mostly due
to your own pov bias, and no more and no less.

I would like to add that the Wikipedia community is
very forgiving.
However, forgiveness is only shown to those who show
remorse for their
actions. No matter who you are, if you fail to follow
the policies, then
you will be subject to sanctions.

I have done nothing to warrent any such "sanctions".
Such Wiki Policies must be EQUALLY ENFORCED and
without ANY DOUBLE-STANDARDS or selective BIAS or they
are totally without any MERIT. Rule by FIAT is for
TYRANTS and this Wiki community won't abide by any
such TYRANTS for long.

You have already admitted that you
have attempted to elude those sanctions, which is also
a violation of policy, regardless of whether the
sanctions were applied appropriately
or not.

I do completely disagree.
If the sanctions were based upon false pov slander,
rather than upon the actual facts, which they were,
then they have no validity, whatsoever.

You are not above the rules here. Everyone is subject
to them.

Not from what I have seen here, the "ilk" that is
attempting to block, ban, and censor me, do not seem
to be "subject to them", whatsoever. I don't abide by
ANY DOUBLE-STANDARDS of biased enforcement of the
rules, anywhere.

Unless you start now and show that you're willing to
follow the policies
and obey the rules, you should expect to be punished
for your violations.

Unless the rules are applied to EVERYONE EQUALLY,
without DOUBLE-STANDARDS and without selective BIAS,
the rules should NOT be followed by ANYONE, and NO ONE
should also be punished for any such violations,
period.

You need to cease your inappropriate behavior,
apologize, and promise
that it won't happen again. You also need to promise
that you will,
starting now, obey all the rules and policies of
Wikipedia. You should
be a "REAL MAN" and start the healing process by being
the first to
admit your wrongs.

My "behavior" has not been "inappropriate" here in the
first place.
Where and when it ever has been, "inappropriate" here,
in my belief or pov, I have duly apologized.
I do not apologize for whatever I do believe to be the
TRUTH.
I will abide by any such rules and policies that are
enforced without any pov bias, or without
DOUBLE-STANDARDS and otherwise, not.

Finally, I have made the fourth agreement to hear your
case, so your
case is officially in arbitration now. I suggest you
make your case on

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paul_Vogel>

and place evidence on

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paul_Vogel/evidence>

and the arbitrators will hear your case.

I will do so and just as soon as I can.

Thanks! :D

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] "Ilk" defined for Fred.

body:
Notice that your example shows the negative connotation I speak of.

This raises the question of whether you are aware of the effect of your
language on others. Not much though.

Fred

> From: Mr Paul Vogel <bannedneedle at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 08:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Cc: bannedneedle at yahoo.com
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] "Ilk" defined for Fred.
>
> Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
>
> 3 entries found for ilk.
> To select an entry, click on it.
> ilk[1,pronoun]ilk[2,noun]ilk[3,pronoun]
>
> Main Entry: 2ilk
> Function: noun
> : SORT, KIND <the rejection of these books or others
> of like ilk -- Kathleen Molz>
>
> "However this word in modern times carries
> a strong negative connotation and violates our policy
> against personal
> attacks (without delivering any significant
> information). Basically just a
> throwaway piss word."
>
> Ilk has a "strong negative connotation"!!!??? LOL! :D


subject: [WikiEN-l] "Ilk" refined for Fred.

body:
Fred,

That was just an example of "sort", "kind" or "ilk".
The "negative connotation" was only on the part of the
author of the "sentence example" that was being used
there to show how the word "ilk" could be used.
"Ilk" therefore could be used "just as correctly" with
either a "positive" or with a "neutral" connotation as
with a "negative" one.

If that "sort" or "kind" or "ilk" are actually and
factually "lying and hypocritical and pov slanderous
and censorious bigots", then that "sort" or that
"kind" or that "ilk" actually should, IMHO, have
"negative connotations", no?

"Ilk", then, in that case is most appropriate.

If you are going to edit here, Fred, you really should
know the actual meaning of words, before making any
such comments.

Factual accuracy and a NPOV within articles is what I
am really up to, and not pov "quarreliing and
fussing".

Maybe you should look in the mirror and then think
about that fact and about your own self and about that
"ilk" that is always trying to block, ban, and censor
me, for only their own pov verses the Wiki NPOV?

Paul Vogel
http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] Browne troubles

body:
On Sun, Apr 25, 2004 at 11:04:09PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Coronelli is currently serving all wikis. I also found that coro's
> squid was using an awful lot of memory - resident size ~2.1gb, though
> it's theoretically set to a 1350mb memory cache usage, and about 890mb
> used swap and growing fast. Load was 18-20ish. I restarted the squid to
> clear out the memory, and now the swap's gone and load's down to 6-8.
>
> It remains to be seen whether it will eventually start eating into swap
> again.

Is the squid installation on curly still there? Gabriel set it up so
that Jimbo could swap the memory in coronelli. If it's still around,
this could be used perhaps?

Load of Coronelli is in the 50s for the last 30 minutes.

Regards,

	JeLuF


subject: [WikiEN-l] LYNCH MOB against Paul Vogel-A WHO's WHO within the ilk!

body:
A "Who's Who" of the "ilk" that has been slandering,
lying hypocritically, and bearing false witness
against me, and in a deliberately false attempt to
just have me blocked, banned, and censored:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paul_Vogel&action=history

Obviously, by checking the "history" of this case, it
is clear to see just who and whom are the censorious
lying hypocrites, and just who and whom are against
such pov and bigoted censorship and DOUBLE-STANDARDS,
and lying hypocrisy and slander against me.

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] "Ilk" defined. "Trolls and Flamers"? Sure Sheldon.
	Mirror mirror?

body:
Some, like Sheldon, don't get sanctioned by Wikipedia
for any such false, although indirect, "personal
attacks" upon other Wikipedians?

Maybe Sheldon, like Timwi, are of the same "ilk"?

------------------------------------------------------

Timwi wrote:

>You could try to contribute to OpenFacts or
>Disinfopedia instead (you
>can Google for these)... maybe they won't "censor"
>you.

I'm pretty sure they will. In the spirit of
collegiality, though, I'd
like to suggest that Wikipedia refrain from passing
their trolls and
flamers on to other sites. Would you like it if
Disinfopedia or
OpenFacts recommended that THEIR trolls visit
Wikipedia?

--Sheldon Rampton

__________________________________
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] The same Censorious "ILK" is alive and well within
	Wikipedia!

body:
 The same Censorious "ILK" is alive and well within
Wikipedia!

This lying and hypocritical and slanderous "ilk" is
the same one that is trying to block, censor, and ban
PAUL VOGEL!!!!

------------------------------------------------------

JPost.com ? Jewish World ?

Anti-Semitic 'Jew' site top of Google search

Mar. 31, 2004 22:56  | Updated Apr. 2, 2004 18:31
Anti-Semitic 'Jew' site top of Google search
By MICHAEL MYLREA

What is a Jew? Those hoping to find out from a Google
search are in for an unpleasant surprise. The first of
1.75 million entries that appear when you type "Jew"
into the search engine is an anti-Semitic site.

This discovery by a New York real-estate developer,
among others, has sparked a cyberspace showdown, and a
bid to alter the situation by a small band of Internet
experts.

While surfing the Web from his New York home,
real-estate investor Steven Weinstock was shocked to
find Jew Watch, filled with propaganda similar to that
used by the Nazis.

"At first I felt surprised, and then those feelings
turned to shock," he said.

What upset him most is not that hatemongers might be
publishing such lies, but that any person looking to
find out about Judaism would be offered choices such
as the "Jewish Controlled Press," "Jewish World
Conspiracies," "Jewish Media Lies," and "Jewish
Banking and Financial Manipulations." Under one of the
categories, titled "Revisionists ? 6,000,000 Jews DID
NOT DIE," there are dozens of links to articles
dedicated to Holocaust revisionism.

Weinstock has been working to get rid of the site.
Last Saturday, he launched his own Web site, called
Remove Jew Watch, containing a petition which received
more than 3,000 signatures in its first 48 hours ?
1,500 on Monday alone. He also wrote an e-mail to
Google, demanding that it remove the site.

In an e-mail response, Google refused: "Unfortunately,
no computer can assess the morality, tastefulness, or
honesty of a site's content. Results are determined by
computer algorithms using thousands of factors to
calculate a page's relevance to a given query."

Emboldened by Google's refusal, Daniel Sieradski,
editor of the Jew School, a site devoted to Jewish
fringe culture, decided to take matters into his own
hands. Using a method called Google bombing, which
exploits a quirk in Google's algorithms, he hoped to
raise another site to the No. 1 rank.

"I decided to issue a call to arms on my Web site,"
Sieradski said. "Within a week, my proposal caught the
attention of other Jewish bloggers [keepers of
Web-based diaries] in the US, Canada, and Israel."

Sieradski's efforts paid off. The Wikipedia
encyclopedia listing for "Jew," which just a week ago
held no rank on Google, rose to the fourth-highest
entry. But Sieradski is still not satisfied.

"Our work is not yet done," he said. "We've got quite
a way to go before we reach No. 1, and then start to
push Jew Watch completely off the first page."

Jew Watch's founder, Frank Weltner, did not respond to
enquiries from the The Jerusalem Post.

Jew Watch's description of itself is bland: "Archive
of essays, articles, and on-line books about a
perceived international Jewish conspiracy: Keeping a
Close Watch on Jewish Communities & Organizations
Worldwide."

Inside, a dozen or so articles suggest that Jews are
living out The Protocols of The Elders of Zion ? a
forgery that has fueled Jewish persecution for more
than a century.

Perversely, the site also has links to Jewish
community and civil rights organizations such as B'nai
B'rith, the American Civil Liberties Union, and the
Simon Wiesenthal Center, but lists them as "Jewish
Hate Groups."

"If it means hating extremists, racists, and
anti-Semites, then this title is well deserved," said
Dr. Efraim Zuroff, director of the Simon Wiesenthal
Center in Jerusalem. "Not to fight against these
groups increases their potential to poison the minds
of millions."

There is an inherent danger when a hate site
masquerades as an academic resource, said Brian Marcus
of the civil-rights division of the Anti-Defamation
League.

"One of our major concerns is that children unable to
discern what is true will stumble onto these hate
sites," he said. "There have been many cases where
children unknowingly turn in school reports that
contain anti-Semitic and racist remarks."

Stopping hate sites has been difficult, said Zuroff.
"What is going on is really outrageous; they can get
away with saying the worst things: lies, anti-Semitic,
xenophobic, and racist remarks. And yet all of our
efforts to date to get these sites off the Web have
been unsuccessful because the First Amendment enables
people to make racist and anti-Semitic remarks."

Another factor is that censorship laws in America
focus on sexual content, said Lee Tein, a senior staff
attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a
group dedicated to preserving on-line civil liberties.

"For American censors, sex has always been the big
issue," said Tein. "The First Amendment tends to be
understood as being especially protective of political
speech, and that puts racist or hate speech in a
different realm."

Education is the best form of defense, said Laura Kam
Issacharoff, co-director of the Anti-Defamation League
office in Jerusalem. "We have long been proponents of
educating the American public about hatred on the
Internet, though as representatives of a minority, we
prefer to adhere to the democratic values opposed to
censorship."

__________________________________
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from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] wikien-l@wikipedia.org

body:
From: <>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:53:37 -0400
To: jwales at bomis.com
Subject: wikipedia and RFLP

Just a quick note to tell you that you need to have the content of the page
dealing with RFLP corrected. One of my students used it as a source and found
that RFLP is referred to as a property of DNA (it is a technique) and that the
DNA is first usually amplified by pcr - it is NOT usually done in this manner.
PLEASE check content - the page is mis-informative.

<name omitted> PhD
Assistant Professor of Biology
<university name omitted>


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism?

body:
Timwi wrote:

>You could try to contribute to OpenFacts or
>Disinfopedia instead (you
>can Google for these)... maybe they won't "censor"
>you.

I'm pretty sure they will. In the spirit of collegiality, though, I'd
like to suggest that Wikipedia refrain from passing their trolls and
flamers on to other sites. Would you like it if Disinfopedia or
OpenFacts recommended that THEIR trolls visit Wikipedia?

--Sheldon Rampton


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Andre Engels

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Can "outsiders" build their encyclopedia
	on	Wikipedia?

body:
"Wesley Sheldahl" <wsheldahl at iglou.com> schrieb:

> That's exactly right. If a set of articles seem out of proportion, it
> would be far better to add more to the smaller articles, then to cut
> material from the larger ones for no other reason than that someone had
> worked hard to make them more complete or comprehensive. Wikipedia is
> not paper. Over time, this shouldn't be a significant problem.

I certainly think it would. If someone is going to make 50 extensive
articles on otherwise insignificant members of their volleyball clubs,
Wikipedia is not going to be improved by doing the same for all other
sport clubs in the world as well. More is not necessarily better. It
can sometimes be significantly worse.

Andre Engels


from_name: Constans, Camille (C.C.)

subject: [Wikitech-l] RE:Brown Problems  should go to LKML

body:
>(and remember, its my belief that WP should be buying hardware
>from a company
>with a kernel hacker at it, or have a kernel hacker dictate
>from firsthand
>experience what hardware to buy).
>
>http://download.wikimedia.org/ganglia/?m=&r=hour&s=descending&hc=4
>
>

Or we should have a backup server with HeartBeat :)


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Fwd: LYNCH MOB against Paul Vogel by the usual ilk of
	Censorous Lying Hypocrites, Jimmy.

body:
Well, I wasn't in Europe, but in Georgia and North Carolina.  Anyone
planning an ABUSIVE POWER GRAB is advised to note that we've scheduled
all of those for June, when I really will be away.

In any event, Paul, I just got back, and I don't know what's going on,
but anyone who writes IN HUGE CAPITAL LETTERS and doesn't really explain
what the exact problem is, loses a lot of sympathy.

Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

> EVERYONE that is a user and contributor to this Wiki
> Project NEEDS to become AWARE of what is GOING ON
> about this ABUSIVE POWER GRAB by a SMALL ILK or GROUP
> of CENSOROUS POV BIGOTS within the WIKI community
> project while Jimmy Wales is away in Europe that are
> falsely and slanderously always attempting to BAN,
> BLOCK, and CENSOR ME.
>
> If you do let them get away with this,
> YOU could be CENSORED and BANNED, NEXT!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Paul Vogel
> http://www.cosmotheism.net
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Note: forwarded message attached.
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25?
> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
> From: Mr Paul Vogel <bannedneedle at yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:58:33 -0700 (PDT)
> To: jwales at bomis.com
> Subject: LYNCH MOB against Paul Vogel by the usual ilk of Censorous Lying
> 	Hypocrites, Jimmy.
>
> LYNCH MOB against "Paul Vogel" by the usual pov ilk of
> Censorous Lying Hypocrites, Jimmy.
>
> You really should get involved in this dispute, Jimmy,
> before it gets totally out of hand and
> a CABAL or ilk of POV Censorous, Slanderous, and Lying
> and Hypocritical BIGOTS and DOGMATISTS actually takes
> over the entire Wikipedia Encyclopedia Project:
> -PV
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Procedure for Requesting Arbitration
> Currently, the arbitrators accept referrals from Jimbo
> Wales only, which they decide to arbitrate on based on
> the voting procedure described at
> wikipedia:arbitration policy.
>
> Now that the arbitration policy is complete, we are
> currently taking suggestions for improvements at
> Wikipedia talk:Arbitration policy comments. After
> implementing those improvements, we'll have a formal
> vote. At this point we will take requests directly
> from Wikipedians, on this page. In the mean time,
> please make alternative arrangements or, in emergency
> cases, ask Jimbo to refer the case to us.
>
>
> Current requests
> The procedure for accepting requests is descibed at
> arbitration policy. Be brief - put a quick list of the
> nature of the complaints. Link to detailed evidence
> elsewhere if you need to.
>
> User:24.45.99.191
> Paul Vogel is an anonymous user who has had temporary
> bans implemented him on several occasions for
> trolling, breaking the revert rule and making abusive
> comments. 24.45.99.191is his most common IP address
> but according to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paul
> Vogel he also uses:
> 24.45.99.191 (optonline.net ? broadband provider)
> 65.125.10.66 (tcius.com ? marketing company)
> 66.2.156.* (10, 27, 36, 38, 48, 69, 100, 123)
> (algx.net NY dialups)
> 216.99.245.* (139, 146**, 153, 154, 170, 171, 184,
> 188) (algx.net NY dialups)
> (**) new
> He has been especially prevalent (and abusive) on
> Holocaust, Anti-Semitism, Cosmotheism, White
> Separatism, Judaism, Genocide and associated talk
> pages.
>
> I wish to request a permanent block against Vogel and
> his various IP addresses. AndyL 04:26, 21 Apr 2004
> (UTC)
>
> It is clear that a cabal of censorous pov bigots have
> falsely accused me of being a "troll", "vandal", or of
> making "abusive comments" on some TalkPages, or of
> "breaking the 3-revert rule". This is psychological
> projection by a pov mob or ilk of lying hypocrites. I
> do request Sam Spade, to be my "advocate", and I also
> can provide evidence to demonstrate the fact that
> those here attempting to have me banned and to have me
> censored, are themselves "trolls", "vandals", and have
> themselves broken the 3-revert rule and have hurled
> "personal insults" and have abused and used slanderous
> and false personal insults and "abusive comments" as
> their own stock in trade and in their own pov bigoted
> and biased campaign of "character assassination".-PV
>
>
> I agree to being his advocate, in this circumstance
> and others, until I such time as I might find cause to
> recuse myself. Sam Spade 22:30, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
> Seconded. User has an unbroken five-month record of
> personal attacks, revert wars, vandalisms, and so
> forth. ?No-One Jones 04:30, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
>
> Another typical case of Psychological projection by
> Mirv, ad nauseum.-PV
>
>
> And did I mention that he constantly tries to diagnose
> psychological problems based on what people write on
> Wikipedia? Not sure if that behavior is within the
> purview of the arbitrators, but. . . ?No-One Jones
> 15:40, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC):-)
> In your case, it is quite obvious and clear, as "lying
> hypocrisy" is a key indicator of psychological
> projection.
>
>
> "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy
> brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in
> thine own eye?" - Matthew 7:3 King James Version of
> the Bible
> It is not "rocket science", Mirv.-PV
>
>
>
>
> I believe Vogel is currently under a 24 hour ban. He
> has apparently circumvented this by posting under
> 216.99.245.146 He's been on Wikipedia for months but
> has refused to register, it would seem, so he can
> circumvent discipline more easily. AndyL 02:15, 23 Apr
> 2004 (UTC)
> Vogel was expressly banned by Hadal for 48 hours and
> has now returned (as 216.99.245.146) to continue to
> engage in an edit war.GrazingshipIV 02:19, Apr 23,
> 2004 (UTC)
>
> I personally don't see a reason to go through such
> contortions in order to deal with this user. He has
> made ad hominem attacks a central tactic in his
> "debates" with others and will see no compromise. The
> community has put up with him for months; much time
> and energy has been wasted in vain pursuit of accord
> with Vogel.
>
> As I do not see quickpolls as an appropriate method of
> resolving what should be a simple matter of an IP
> blatantly violating policy, I also do not see
> arbitration as necessary in this case. It's another
> waste of time and energy which would be much better
> spent building Wikipedia or dealing with problem users
> who bother to log in (and, for that matter, have done
> more than disrupt). I have re-blocked Vogel's primary
> (static) IP for 96 hours, as I promised I would do if
> he tried to evade the original 48 hour block. If he
> attempts to evade this block as well, I will make the
> block indefinite. I'll do the same if he does not
> moderate himself in the future.
>
> If others want to pledge themselves to what will
> surely be wasted effort, that's their choice. In the
> meantime, I'll do what I believe is best for the
> community. Wikipedia is not the Stormfront forums;
> Paul Vogel knows this as well as anyone else. -- Hadal
> 04:05, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
>
> Arbitators opinions on hearing this matter
> We should hear this. I believe it is Wikipedia policy
> that pushing an extreme point of view is not in itself
> grounds for banning. However there are a number of
> Wikipedia policies which by necessity must be violated
> in an effort to aggressively push a point of view. I
> think, based on a preliminary review of
> Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paul Vogel there are
> sufficient grounds for consideration of his actions.
> Fred Bauder 13:24, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
> Agree with Fred; support. James F. (talk) 13:26, 21
> Apr 2004 (UTC)
> Both sides seem to want us to arbitrate, so by all
> means let us do so. Martin 21:52, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25?
> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Taking time out

body:
> Just a note to say that I am taking time out from Wikipedia.
> Caroline / Secretlondon

Just a note to let you know we're hoping you'll feel better soon. :)

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Music articles on Wikipedia

body:
Nothing on that page is official in any way, and I personally don't
agree that musical group/artist articles nor album articles should be
singled out specially for omission in a print edition.  SOME of just
about EVERY type of article will have to be omitted in any context
where there is a space constraint.

But on wikipedia proper, extensive coverage is extremely desirable.

Jasmine Taylor wrote:

> What is the future of music articles on Wikipedia? I notice under the
> heading "Pushing to 1.0" that Musical group/artist articles and Musical
> album articles may be excluded.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Personalise your phone with chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
> http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Browne troubles

body:
On Apr 26, 2004, at 05:21, Tim Starling wrote:
> Jens Frank wrote:
>> Is the squid installation on curly still there? Gabriel set it up so
>> that Jimbo could swap the memory in coronelli. If it's still around,
>> this could be used perhaps?
>>
>> Load of Coronelli is in the 50s for the last 30 minutes.
>
> Coronelli is currently acting as a database slave server.

s/Coronelli/curly/

*Curly* is running a db slave.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] [<>: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Freedman]

body:
Forwarded message about which I have no knowledge or opinion...

----------

From: <>
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:04:19 +0100
To: <jwales at bomis.com>
Subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Freedman

Hi,

Could you please make sure that the page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Freedman is cleared as I do not want to
have it there (I created the page originally) and as well it seems that
there seems to be somekind of copyright problem. As well, I am deeply
unsatisfied that I was able to fill in pages because I got such a headache
from doing this for a day that I was completely unable to read at all.
Please restrict the possibility of doing pages without permissions or
authority.

Respectfully,
<>


subject: [WikiEN-l] LYNCH MOB against Paul Vogel

body:
"Well, I wasn't in Europe, but in Georgia and North
Carolina."

Ok, in any event, you were quite difficult to reach,
and may as well have been in Europe! LOL! :D

"Anyone planning an ABUSIVE POWER GRAB is advised to
note that we've scheduled all of those for June, when
I really will be away."

Great, now you'll just encourage them, Jimmy! LOL! :D

"In any event, Paul, I just got back, and I don't know
what's going on,"

I know you don't know, which is why I sent this and
these e-mails to let you know what was really going on
behind your back while you were away down South!

"but anyone who writes IN HUGE CAPITAL LETTERS and
doesn't really explain what the exact problem is,
loses a lot of sympathy."

It is IN HUGE CAPITAL LETTERS, Jimmy, just to get your
and EVERYONE's attention. I don't want to get any
"sympathy", Jimmy, what I ONLY want is JUSTICE!

Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

> EVERYONE that is a user and contributor to this Wiki
> Project NEEDS to become AWARE of what is GOING ON
> about this ABUSIVE POWER GRAB by a SMALL ILK or
GROUP of CENSOROUS POV BIGOTS within the WIKI
community project while Jimmy Wales is away in Europe
that are falsely and slanderously always attempting to
BAN, BLOCK, and CENSOR ME.
>
> If you do let them get away with this,
> YOU could be CENSORED and BANNED, NEXT!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Paul Vogel
> http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
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from_name: Mohan Ravichandran

subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
Hi,
   This will hopefully lighten the tense situation in the mailing list.

Poem by Ogden Nash:
The cow is of the bovine ilk
One end moo, the other end milk

Ilk was a synonym for same in the middle ages but now means type or kind. That
being said, at the risk of being impugned, I think that Mr Paul Vogel's usage
of the word ilk is jarring and incorrect.
Mohan Ravichandran


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Paul Vogel:
	Slanderous charges of anti-Semitism!

body:
Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Paul Vogel
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

< Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration

All of the slanderous charges of "anti-Semitism"
against Paul Vogel are bogus. If one bothers to check
the Paul Vogel quotes that were taken out of context
by his detractors and then compare them to the
arguements and to the reverts and censorship by pov
bigots that preceeded them, it is very clear that Paul
Vogel was attempting to maintain "factual accuracy"
and a NPOV and objective balance relative to all of
the articles in question, and that the pov bigoted and
quite slanderous "criticism" of his religion of
Cosmotheism by David Gerard, which can be seen in the
TalkPages there, and after the consensus and peace and
a revert war was concluded.

__________________________________
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from_name: Magnus Manske

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Can "outsiders" build their
	encyclopedia	on	Wikipedia?

body:
Andre Engels wrote:

>"Wesley Sheldahl" <wsheldahl at iglou.com> schrieb:
>
>
>
>>That's exactly right. If a set of articles seem out of proportion, it
>>would be far better to add more to the smaller articles, then to cut
>>material from the larger ones for no other reason than that someone had
>>worked hard to make them more complete or comprehensive. Wikipedia is
>>not paper. Over time, this shouldn't be a significant problem.
>>
>>
>
>I certainly think it would. If someone is going to make 50 extensive
>articles on otherwise insignificant members of their volleyball clubs,
>Wikipedia is not going to be improved by doing the same for all other
>sport clubs in the world as well. More is not necessarily better. It
>can sometimes be significantly worse.
>
>
IIRC, we have already limited additions to "encyclopedic contents",
which would separate between amateur volleyball players and religous
figures ;-)

Magnus


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Defense of "anti-Semitism" charges during Arbitration at
	Wikipedia

body:
Check these out and then decide for yourself if such
allegations constitute "anti-Semitism" or really just
factually accurate "criticisms" by Paul Vogel?

http://www.cosmotheism.net

-------------------------------------------------------

==Request and discussion==
The original request for arbitration and additions
thereto are at [[Wikipedia:Requests for
arbitration/Paul Vogel]].
==Requests for comment==
[[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paul Vogel]]
==Evidence==
Postings to the wikipedia-en mailing list:
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012167.html]
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012170.html]
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012171.html]
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012172.html]
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012175.html]
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012176.html]
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012177.html]
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012179.html].
[[User:Silsor|silsor]] 22:34, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

Request for userid and revert warning
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:24.45.99.191#3_Revert_Warning]

Relations with community and responses to attempts to
moderate. see personal pages[[User talk:24.45.99.191]]
and [[User_talk:65.125.10.66]]

Adding link to [[David Duke]]'s material to Judaism
site  See also
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&diff=3188709&oldid=3188557]
and
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&diff=3174393&oldid=3174356]
One example of vandalism on [[Holocaust]] (April 19)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Holocaust&diff=3259413&oldid=3259405]

Complaint against Vogel about personal harassment
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Quickpolls/Archive#User:24.45.99.191_(15_votes_/_12_for_/_3_oppose_/_80%_in_favour)
here] [[User:AndyL|AndyL]] 05:06, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Edited Snowspinner's user page twice. The effect of
both edits was to severely misrepresent Snowspinner's
statement, then add a lengthy portion of text. On the
first occasion
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:Snowspinner&dummy=1&diff=3259544&oldid=3259528],
the added text is apparently a version of
[[Holocaust]] preferred by Vogel. On the second
occasion
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:Snowspinner&dummy=1&diff=3260374&oldid=3260355],
it seems to be the excerpt Vogel wanted included, plus
Vogel's argument in favor of including it. This
argument, including the "blood curse", can also be
found on [[Talk:Holocaust]]. Vogel also posted the
same material to the talk pages of Mirv, Fennec, and
myself. I am still puzzled as to why I was included,
because at this point I had never had any interaction
with Vogel, or worked on any of the pages where he is
active. --[[User:Michael Snow|Michael Snow]] 03:58, 25
Apr 2004 (UTC)

Linked this anti-Jewish page to a message to the
mailing list, in "defense" of himself:

http://www.natvan.com/pdf/04-24-04.pdf

[[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]] 19:14, 26 Apr 2004
(UTC)

===Articles in question===
*[[Anti-Semitism]]
*[[Cosmotheism]]
*[[Genocide]]
*[[Holocaust]]
*[[Judaism]]
*[[Pantheism]]
*[[Monism]]
*[[William Pierce]]
*[[separatism]]
*[[White supremacy]]
*[[White Separatism]]
*[[National Alliance]]
*[[Holocaust denial]]
*[[Homophobic hate speech]]

==defense==

===evidence of compromise===
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=National_Alliance&diff=0&oldid=3284956

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=National_Alliance&action=history
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Homophobic_hate_speech&action=history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cosmotheism/Archive_4#compromise

===evidence of good edits being reverted, rather than
compromised, edited, etc...===
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Transhumanism&diff=3057318&oldid=3029606
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Genocide&diff=3175941&oldid=3173792
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&diff=3176439&oldid=3175476
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=William_Pierce&diff=2525863&oldid=2525820
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Separatism&diff=2530132&oldid=2530098
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=White_supremacy&diff=2459378&oldid=2458938

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subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Can "outsiders" build
	their	encyclopedia	on	Wikipedia?

body:
"Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at web.de> schrieb:

> IIRC, we have already limited additions to "encyclopedic contents",
> which would separate between amateur volleyball players and religous
> figures ;-)

It's certainly not a criticism at the specific example. I know too
little about it to make a judgement. It was more the general principle
that I was commenting on. Basically, we want much, we want more, but
we do not want everything.

Still, "encyclopedic content" is too vague to work on, and conflicts
will remain. My own principle is the "compound encyclopedia" idea -
take all encyclopedia-similar books, that is encyclopedias on a single
subject and such. What I'd like Wikipedia to be, is the 'merge' of
all those.

Andre Engels


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: wikien-l-Qm5IaAUhVgiGglJvpFV4uA@public.gmane.org

body:
Yes, I replied to her and suggested that, yes.  And more nicely than
what you said, yes.  :-)  But I also forwarded it here so we can show
off in terms of how fast things get fixed.

David Friedland wrote:

> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
> >From: <>
> >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:53:37 -0400
> >To: jwales at bomis.com
> >Subject: wikipedia and RFLP
> >
> >Just a quick note to tell you that you need to have the content of the
> >page dealing with RFLP corrected. One of my students used it as a
> >source and found that RFLP is referred to as a property of DNA (it is
> >a technique) and that the DNA is first usually amplified by pcr - it
> >is NOT usually done in this manner. PLEASE check content - the page is
> >mis-informative.
> >
> ><name omitted> PhD
> >Assistant Professor of Biology
> ><university name omitted>
>
> We all assume, of course, that you replied to him yourself and told him
> to fix it his damn self (but in nicer words), right?
>
> :-)
>
> -- David
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Peter Jaros

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Can "outsiders" build their encyclopedia on
	Wikipedia?

body:
On Apr 26, 2004, at 7:13 AM, Wesley Sheldahl wrote:

> That's exactly right. If a set of articles seem out of proportion, it
> would be far better to add more to the smaller articles, then to cut
> material from the larger ones for no other reason than that someone
> had worked hard to make them more complete or comprehensive. Wikipedia
> is not paper. Over time, this shouldn't be a significant problem.
>
> It also helps if people realize that wikipedia is never 100% finished.

To the Wikipedian, the glass should always be bigger than its contents.
It
encourages others to fill the glass.

Peter

                                  -- ---<>--- --
                        A house without walls cannot fall.
           Help build the world's largest encyclopedia at Wikipedia.org
                                  -- ---<>--- --


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Browne troubles

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Browne is mysteriously down for the moment. An initial reboot got it
> running again; Tim has some syslog bits he could probably post here
> about some sort of problem. Apparently it went down again shortly
> thereafter, and my attempt to power cycle it didn't get it back, at
> least not back on the network.

I don't have the whole thing, just the few lines I posted to IRC at the
time.

First, the log showed squid operating normally. Then it died, with this
sort of thing being written to the log:

Apr 26 01:43:18 browne kernel: Slab corruption: start=295d1894, len=504
Apr 26 01:43:18 browne kernel: Redzone: 0x5a2cf071/0x5a2cf071.
Apr 26 01:43:18 browne kernel: Last user:
[<02185132>](destroy_inode+0x36/0x45)
Apr 26 01:43:18 browne kernel: 030: 6b 6b 6b 6b 6b 6b 6b 6b 6b 6b 6b 6b
cc 1c 5d 29
Apr 26 01:43:18 browne kernel: Prev obj: start=295d1690, len=504

Then shortly afterwards, the squid automatically came back on with a
different PID. Kernel messages such as the following were displayed:

Apr 26 01:44:28 browne kernel: slab: Internal list corruption detected
in cache 'dentry_cache'(14), slabp 64c7f000(12). Hexdump:
...
Apr 26 01:44:28 browne kernel: invalid operand: 0000 [#1]

The server was contactable for some time after the squid restart, maybe
10 minutes. Then it stopped responding to ganglia, ssh or HTTP requests.
It was, however, still pingable. The system log during this time showed
crond causing a kernel error like the one above, once every minute.
There was no other visible activity. This situation continued until the
machine was power-cycled.

I don't know enough about the kernel to speculate on what went wrong on
the basis of these logs.

After the restart, browne came back on and worked properly for about an
hour, before dying again as Brion described. It is currently not
responding to ping.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: David Friedland

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

> From: <>
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:53:37 -0400
> To: jwales at bomis.com
> Subject: wikipedia and RFLP
>
> Just a quick note to tell you that you need to have the content of the page
> dealing with RFLP corrected. One of my students used it as a source and found
> that RFLP is referred to as a property of DNA (it is a technique) and that the
> DNA is first usually amplified by pcr - it is NOT usually done in this manner.
> PLEASE check content - the page is mis-informative.
>
> <name omitted> PhD
> Assistant Professor of Biology
> <university name omitted>

We all assume, of course, that you replied to him yourself and told him
to fix it his damn self (but in nicer words), right?

:-)

-- David


from_name: Caroline Ford

subject: [WikiEN-l] Taking time out

body:
Just a note to say that I am taking time out from Wikipedia.

The US bias and biased editing of political articles is getting to me.
I've decided that I've got better things to do with my time than fight
with the US right.

Caroline / Secretlondon


from_name: Michael Snow

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Can "outsiders" build their encyclopedia on
	Wikipedia?

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>> The Marxists don't go away, they just delete any information they
>> don't like
>> and argue endlessly. Although occasionally they will conceed that
>> some major
>> issue deserves a small mention in an article, down at the bottom, if you
>> have extensive references for the point.
>
> Is this why it's so hard to tell them apart from some of your right
> wing friends?

Regardless of the people and ideologies involved, it's typically hard to
tell edit warriors apart from each other, let alone identify what value
systems they are promoting (other than anti-Wikiquette, of course). Most
of the time, the only way I know who's "Marxist" and who's "right wing"
is based on the furious labeling of users by their opponents. You
certainly wouldn't be able to tell based on the progress being made in
adding actual content to the encyclopedia.

--Michael Snow


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Infrogmation's "reasons" for blocking are nothing but
	false "personal insults"!

body:
User is blocked
>From Wikipedia, the free POV-CENSORED encyclopedia?

Your user name or IP address has been blocked by
Infrogmation. The reason given is this:
Vogel wackiness

Putting in the link to http://www.jewwatch.com as a
criticism link to "Judaism" or to "Jew" articles is
hardly "Vogel wackiness", which I do consider to be
only a false "personal insult", and which only proves
what typical liars and censorous pov bigots and
slanderous hypocrites this "Infrogmation" and his
particular "ilk" of admins. actually are here at
Wikipedia.

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: My reply to Michael Snow's personal feeling re:
	Wikipedia

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

>Michael Snow doesn't seem to think it "bad" when
>either he and his "ilk" direct numerous and FALSE
>offensive statements at other Wikipedians, though,
>does he?
>
If I have made any, let alone numerous, false or offensive statements
directed at other Wikipedians, I hope somebody will let me know, so that
I can do what is possible to correct my mistake. But I can accept no
responsibility for my ilk; it will have to account for itself.

My only other comment is to clarify what Mr. Paul Vogel apparently did
not understand in my previous post. I am not suggesting that we
sacrifice the NPOV policy. That is and should remain, quoting Jimbo,
"absolute and non-negotiable". Rather, I meant that just because
somebody contributes a particular point of view to the discussion, that
should not immunize them from the consequences of their behavior. We can
get that same point of view from other sources, if necessary, and still
achieve NPOV.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Daniel P.B.Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] We have to find a clearer way to say "edit this page..."

body:
> From: <>
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:53:37 -0400
> To: jwales at bomis.com
> Subject: wikipedia and RFLP
>
> Just a quick note to tell you that you need to have the content of the
> page
> dealing with RFLP corrected. One of my students used it as a source
> and found
> that RFLP is referred to as a property of DNA (it is a technique) and
> that the
> DNA is first usually amplified by pcr - it is NOT usually done in this
> manner.
> PLEASE check content - the page is mis-informative.
>
> <name omitted> PhD
> Assistant Professor of Biology
> <university name omitted>

Just what part of "edit this page" doesn't he understand? :-)

--

Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net alternate:
dpbsmith at alum.mit.edu
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Browne troubles

body:
Jens Frank wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2004 at 11:04:09PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > Coronelli is currently serving all wikis. I also found that coro's
> > squid was using an awful lot of memory - resident size ~2.1gb, though
> > it's theoretically set to a 1350mb memory cache usage, and about 890mb
> > used swap and growing fast. Load was 18-20ish. I restarted the squid to
> > clear out the memory, and now the swap's gone and load's down to 6-8.
> >
> > It remains to be seen whether it will eventually start eating into swap
> > again.
>
> Is the squid installation on curly still there? Gabriel set it up so
> that Jimbo could swap the memory in coronelli. If it's still around,
> this could be used perhaps?
>
> Load of Coronelli is in the 50s for the last 30 minutes.

Coronelli is currently acting as a database slave server. This is keeping
its IDE hard drive busy. In theory we could stop the synchronisation and
have it take up squid service (which is also reasonably hard-drive
intensive), then restart the synchronisation at a later date. The other
alternative would be to have one of the web servers run squid, i.e. 2:4
squids to apaches instead of 1:5 .

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Ronald Chmara

body:
On Apr 26, 2004, at 9:25 PM, Michael Snow wrote:
> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>> Fred Bauder wrote:
>>> The Marxists don't go away, they just delete any information they
>>> don't like
>>> and argue endlessly. Although occasionally they will conceed that
>>> some major
>>> issue deserves a small mention in an article, down at the bottom, if
>>> you
>>> have extensive references for the point.
>> Is this why it's so hard to tell them apart from some of your right
>> wing friends?
> Regardless of the people and ideologies involved, it's typically hard
> to tell edit warriors apart from each other, let alone identify what
> value systems they are promoting (other than anti-Wikiquette, of
> course). Most of the time, the only way I know who's "Marxist" and
> who's "right wing" is based on the furious labeling of users by their
> opponents. You certainly wouldn't be able to tell based on the
> progress being made in adding actual content to the encyclopedia.

I think an interesting thing to note is not the progress of content
being added, but the same content being reverted to countless times....
the big thing I notice about edit warriors is that once they get a
paragraph or pages "just right", any future edits or changes get
reverted to the warrior's preferred version, usually written solely by
them. Or, in another case, their 'perfect image' (see [[Dan Quayle]]
image war)... there's something of an inflexibility to let the content
evolve, change, and grow, once they have decided that the article is
"just right".

-Bop


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Taking time out

body:
Feel better soon secret...

Caroline Ford a ?crit:
> Just a note to say that I am taking time out from Wikipedia.
>
> The US bias and biased editing of political articles is getting to me.
> I've decided that I've got better things to do with my time than fight
> with the US right.
>
> Caroline / Secretlondon


from_name: Alex Regh

subject: [WikiEN-l] The proliferation of article series boxes

body:
Hello!

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:05:28 -0400, you wrote:

>There have recently been a proliferation with the article series boxes.

It is not just *more* boxes, but some of these boxes have a new quality, too.
(Or rather, lack quality even more than the usual ones.) The boxes "LGBT" and
"Project Critical Theory" for example try to make a series out of something
that could not possibly made into a series.

I have already put my opinion on those two on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_series, but would like to
encourage more comments, since the makers of those particular boxes are
completely deaf to any comments on them, too; the LGBT people don't even
bother to answer any comment. There are probably more cases like this out
there, but those are the two I stumbled over.

>This is a sign that we are in dire need of the category system. What is
>the current state of the category system and what can Nohat do to help?
>
>Let there be categories before the Wikipedia is inundated with articles
>that are 99% article series boxes and 1% content.

Yes, we need categories - and until then, let's *stop* those damn things, too.

Greetings from Cologne,
Alex
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
        --- Jim Steinman ---

Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] wikisource.com

body:
By accident, I typed
http://www.wikisource.com/

and achieved an undesirable result.  This is presumably a very minor
configuration issue somewhere.

--Jimbo


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Paul Vogel and "Jew Watch" website link

body:
Wikipedia strives to be accurate and neutral. Anti-semitic sites such as
Mr. Vogel wants linked directly from the "Judaism" or "Jew" articles is
neither.

In the interests of bending over backwards to be fair, however, I would
like to see that link put SOMEWHERE. How about [[Holocaust denial]] or
[[Anti-Semitism]]?

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed


from_name: Mr Paul Vogel

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Michael Snow and his lying hypocrisy and denial of
	DOUBLE-STANDARDS!

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

>Michael Snow doesn't seem to think it "bad" when
>either he and his "ilk" direct numerous and FALSE
>offensive statements at other Wikipedians, though,
>does he?
>
"If I have made any, let alone numerous, false or
offensive statements directed at other Wikipedians, I
hope somebody will let me know, so that I can do what
is possible to correct my mistake."

I already did, and then you only just falsely denied
it above, Michael Snow.

"But I can accept no responsibility for my ilk; it
will have to account for itself."

True enough, and that is quite unlike the "collective
punishment" that the Zionist Israeli's have always
immorally imposed upon the Palestinian People and on a
daily basis for the last 50-60 years!!!

"My only other comment is to clarify what Mr. Paul
Vogel apparently did not understand in my previous
post."

Or maybe to revise and to change from what you had
actually said in your "previous post" and that I
actually understood all too well? :D

"I am not suggesting that we sacrifice the NPOV
policy. That is and should remain, quoting Jimbo,
"absolute and non-negotiable"."

I have seen the NPOV "sacrificed" on very many
occasions and by a cabal or "ilk" of pov censorious
bigots, liars, slanderers, and hypocrites, and that
are currently attempting to have me blocked, banned,
and censored, here.

"Rather, I meant that just because somebody
contributes a particular point of view to the
discussion, that should not immunize them from the
consequences of their behavior."

I completely do agree, AND that any such "ilks" actual
"behavior" of pov censorship, of false slander and
personal insults, and of pov bigoted lying hypocrisy,
or of doing more than 3-reverts a day, etc.,
themselves, ad nauseum, really should NOT UNFAIRLY be
"selectively" and with "DOUBLE-STANDARDS" and only
themselves be always "immunized" from any
"consequences" of their own quite selfish and pov
ensorship "behavior", whatsoever!

"We can get that same point of view from other
sources, if necessary, and still achieve NPOV."

Yes, we can get the same point of view and from many
other sources, if necessary, by our banning and by our
blocking and by our censoring this cabal or "ilk" of
lying and slanderous and censorious and hypocritical
pov bigots, and this act will INSURE and it will
ENSURE that the Wiki Project actually maintains a NPOV
verses only this "ILKS" continued and biased POV,
within all of the articles that are within Wikipedia.

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] PhatNav: "A Wikipedia"

body:
It is very poor form, at the very least, for them to call themselves
"A Wikipedia".  They may be a Wiki, they may be a Wiki Encyclopedia,
but they are not "A Wikipedia".

It is my understanding of trademark law that we need to police this to
some extent, or we run the risk of, for example, Microsoft someday
putting out a proprietary encyclopedia under our name.

--Jimbo

Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Is PhatNav violating our copyright, or enjoying the benefits of the
> GPDL?
>
> All content Copyright 2003 - PhatNav and Diagonal Media Group Inc.
>  (Except as noted on pages containing separately licensed content.)
> All rights reserved.
>
> PhatNav, the PhatNav logo & characters are trademarks owned by Diagonal
> Media Group Inc.
>
> Privacy statement.   Advertise with us.
>
> The Wikipedia is a project of the Wikimedia Foundation Inc.
> It is offered as open source and is free to reuse according to the GNU
> Free documentation License
>
> http://www.phatnav.com/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page
>
>
> Just asking <== Uncle Ed
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Why, Timwi? Because for true Cosmotheists like me,
	the TRUTH is SACRED!

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

> In my actual "view" as opposed to your own "pov",
> everyone here isn't a bigot, censor, liar, etc. etc.
> etc,
> BUT, the group or "ilk" that is falsely slandering
me,
> lying hypocritically, and that is always falsely
> attempting to have me blocked, banned, and censored,
> are bigots, censors, and liars, Timwi.

"And what exactly makes you care about them? Why are
you so concerned that they exist if their
"wrong-doing" is only confined to Wikipedia anyway? If
you just forget about Wikipedia, they won't influence
you or your life anymore."

Why, Timwi?

Because for true Cosmotheists like me, the TRUTH is
SACRED!

And because Wikipedia doesn't just exist in a vacuum,
and its potential influence could exponentially grow,
and because this "wrongdoing" very likely will both
"corrupt" and "mis-lead" our general readership and
the public at large to actually and to perhaps falsely
believe that Wikipedia actually upholds and maintains
a NPOV, when it actually only maintains a very very
very small "ilk's" pov within all of the encyclopedia
articles.

That is "why", Timwi, because for true Cosmotheists,
like me, the TRUTH is actually SACRED!

the "ilk" that are falsely undermining the Wiki NPOV
and many of the stated "principles" and the stated
wiki "policies" and the "objectivity" of this project
as a Whole.

"I don't understand your emotional attachment with
Wikipedia. Why does it matter to you whether Wikipedia
follow their own policies (NPOV or
others) or not? Why do you care if it's objective or
not?"

Indeed, you don't understand. It matters because the
TRUTH actually matters, in this world in which I and
those I love live, and because the TRUTH is SACRED to
all true Cosmotheists, and that is why I do care that
all Wiki people do actually follow their own NPOV
policies and that they do always strive for only
maintaining actual "objectivity" within the Free Wiki
On-line encyclopedia.

"Think about this for yourself, and answer these
questions to yourself."

I just have already done so, Timwi, because for true
Cosmotheists like me, the TRUTH is SACRED and should
always be upheld for its own sake!

"If you don't have an answer that satisfies you, then
maybe you should really just leave us and let us
continue our slandering, censorous POV bigotry in
peace.Timwi"

Hardly! LOL! :D

It is my SACRED DUTY as a true COSMOTHEIST to always
uphold and support the WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY, and
for their own sake, too!

True Cosmotheists will always uphold the light of the
WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY and will not go into the long
dark night of this selfish "ilks" censorship nor ever
nor gladly accept this ilks planned extinction of us
by these SSEE ilk of censorious bigots forever! Since
the TRUTH is both SACRED and ETERNAL, time actually is
therefore and eventually on our side!

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] "Wikipedia strives to be accurate and neutral."???
	Really Ed?

body:
"Wikipedia strives to be accurate and neutral."

That is ONLY what is "presumed" Wikipedia "strives
for", Ed.

"Anti-semitic sites such as Mr. Vogel wants linked
directly from the "Judaism" or "Jew" articles is
neither."

Why not, Ed?

"Anti-cosmotheism sites" such as the very false and
slanderous four ones that David Gerard has linked to
as being "criticisms" of [[cosmotheism]] are hardly at
all "accurate" nor "neutral" pov's? Why the NPOV
DOUBLE-STANDARD, Ed?

"In the interests of bending over backwards to be
fair, however, I would like to see that link put
SOMEWHERE."

Indeed!

Actually, "fairness" and a Wiki NPOV would be ALSO
either mean deleting the "false and slanderous four
pov "criticism" links at [[cosmotheism]] or allowing
the pov "criticism" link of [http://www.jewwatch.com]
to [Judaism]. That would avoid DOUBLE-STANDARDS and a
NPOV within Wikipedia, and no more and no less, Ed.

"How about [[Holocaust denial]] or
[[Anti-Semitism]]?"

Neither one of those two articles are actually NPOV,
are they Ed?, so I don't think so.

Actually, "fairness" and a Wiki NPOV would be ALSO
either mean deleting the "false and slanderous four
pov "criticism" links at [[cosmotheism]] or allowing
the pov "criticism" link of [http://www.jewwatch.com]
to [Judaism]. That would avoid DOUBLE-STANDARDS and a
NPOV within Wikipedia, and no more and no less, Ed.

That would be an acceptable "COMPROMISE" that actually
enforces a Wiki NPOV and without ANY POV BIAS and pov
DOUBLE-STANDARDS, Ed.

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Sorry Theresa, it was just an accidental "double-post".

body:
"Repeating the same thing over and over again does not
make it more
important, it only bores everyone. Please take this
somewhere else. Your
talk page perhaps.

Theresa Knott TRUE shutttheFupist!"

Sorry Theresa!!!
My bad!!!

It was a quite unintentional or a quite accidental
"double-post".

That as opposed to the deliberate DOUBLE-STANDARDS
that are being enforced here by an "ilk" of lying and
hypocritical and slanderous and censorious pov bigots!

If you are so "bored by" and are so "apathetic"
towards any such bigoted pov censorship, then maybe
you should just stick only to the user TalkPages,
yourself?

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
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subject: [WikiEN-l] PhatNav: "A Wikipedia"

body:
Is PhatNav violating our copyright, or enjoying the benefits of the
GPDL?

All content Copyright 2003 - PhatNav and Diagonal Media Group Inc.
 (Except as noted on pages containing separately licensed content.)
All rights reserved.

PhatNav, the PhatNav logo & characters are trademarks owned by Diagonal
Media Group Inc.

Privacy statement.   Advertise with us.

The Wikipedia is a project of the Wikimedia Foundation Inc.
It is offered as open source and is free to reuse according to the GNU
Free documentation License

http://www.phatnav.com/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page

Just asking <== Uncle Ed


subject: [WikiEN-l] Got ilk?

body:
Every online activity attracts its share of uncooperative people. They
try to subvert the medium for their own selfish purposes, often merely
to get attention. Flamers, trolls, and their ilk. Oh, we got plenty of
them, and the white moustache on the upper lip is a dead giveaway! :-)

We could send them all to Sheldon's site. He specializes in
distinguishing between REAL and FAKE media information, so I'm sure it
would be no burden on him. On the other hand, he has no ethical problem
with "retaliation" so there's the risk that he might cause some of HIS
ilk to drip (or ooze) on over here -- which might sour the silky sweet
smoothness of our own experience. So that's no solution.

Maybe Sunir Shah would like them, over at MeatBall Wiki?

Uncle Ed (mostly kidding)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Browne troubles

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Apr 26, 2004, at 05:21, Tim Starling wrote:
>
>> Jens Frank wrote:
>>
>>> Is the squid installation on curly still there? Gabriel set it up so
>>> that Jimbo could swap the memory in coronelli. If it's still around,
>>> this could be used perhaps?
>>>
>>> Load of Coronelli is in the 50s for the last 30 minutes.
>>
>>
>> Coronelli is currently acting as a database slave server.
>
>
> s/Coronelli/curly/
>
> *Curly* is running a db slave.
>

Oh, you all knew what I meant, right? Just a slip of the tongue. :)

-- Tim Starling


subject: [WikiEN-l] Being needled vs. being banned

body:
I propose we throttle down this dispute with Paul Vogel. Specifically,
the discussants and their "ilk" (whatever that means :-) each limit
themselves to 3 posts per day on any of the following topics:

*double standards, bigots, liars, slanderers, and hypocrites
*trolling, lynch mob, banning, blocks
*Jews, Judaism, Holocaust (or denial), anti-Semitism

To set a good example, I will limit myself to only ONE post a day on
these topics.

Ed Poor
Mailing List Administrator


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: PhatNav: "A Wikipedia"

body:
Timwi wrote:
> I'm not sure what you mean by "police this to some extent", but if I
> were you, I would have already officially threatened them legal action
> from the Wikimedia Foundation.

Well, as a friendly charitable open source free content project, it
isn't our style to send nasty lawyer notes when appeals to good will
and commonsense will work better.

I doubt if they meant any harm by it.

> Aren't they legally required to fix this within 24 hours of
> notification?

I don't think there's any particular length of time.

> I notified them two weeks ago. I did it again just now (of course
> with a clear disclaimer that I am in no official capacity). Have
> they been officially warned yet at all? If not, it's about time.

Can you send me a copy of what you sent to them, so that I can adapt
the text and send it officially?

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Paul Vogel and "Jew Watch" website link

body:
I'm not one to comment on detailed content disputes, since those are
beyond my realm of comfort for the most part, but is it possible that
there could be a compromise that retains the link _where_ he wants it,
but in a section labelled "Examples of modern anti-semitism" or
something like that?

The problem with putting Jew Watch in the section 'Criticism' is that
it lends too much credence to a website that mostly consists of insane
rants.  It isn't "Criticism" in the sense of rational respectful
disagreement, it's just a huge pile of nonsense.

As to Paul's rantings on the mailing list, I strongly advise him to
coooool it.  If I were on the arbitration committee, and this came
before me, I'd vote for a ban and be done with it.

Every time someone accuses us of censorship, etc., we should take it
seriously.  Are we being too quick to judge?  Are we giving in to a
temptation to suppress information that we aren't comfortable with?
Are we being too harsh about something that is essentially a
personality conflict, or a user who lacks social graces?

But, after that, it remains true that some people are just impossible,
and it's a shame.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: <span>

body:
I wish you the best of luck in your campaign. I've asked for <span> tags
  TWICE before and got shot down twice with the explanation that <span>
tags make the wikitext harder to read (as though <div> tags were somehow
better) and that there should be some universal styles for styling
particular things, with wikiformatting tags to go along with them. I
hope you can be more convincing than I was. Of course, said universal
styles never got made and we go on, unable to make <span> tags, and with
no real substitute other than the long-deprecated <font> tag and its
friends. Enabling them requires changing exactly one line of code.

Sigh.

- David

Peter Gervai wrote:
> hello,
>
> from time to time I would like to use <span> tag for inline element
> styling, but it's not supported, so I have to use <div> and dirty tricks to
> get it done, but it's not the same: since DIV is not an inherent inline
> element, it's very hard to use it for blending something into the normal
> text flow (like math for example, see my hack on meta/mediawiki user
> guide/math using div instead of span).
>
> maybe i'm wrong and there shouldn't be such styling on wikipedia pages
> (people against tags would say "it makes wikitext harder to read for nontech
> people"), so please share your opinion. I would like to use span, and would
> like to have it enabled in mediawiki pages. As far as I know it does not
> present cross-scripting or other vulnerabilities (I didn't explore this topic
> too deep though).
>
> if nobody objects or convinces me that I'm on the road to hell I'll try to
> convince brion (which is probably the hardest part :)).
>
> thanks,
> peter


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: PhatNav: "A Wikipedia"

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>> It is my understanding of trademark law that we need to police this to
>> some extent, or we run the risk of, for example, Microsoft someday
>> putting out a proprietary encyclopedia under our name.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "police this to some extent", but if I
> were you, I would have already officially threatened them legal action
> from the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> Aren't they legally required to fix this within 24 hours of
> notification? I notified them two weeks ago. I did it again just now
> (of course with a clear disclaimer that I am in no official capacity).
> Have they been officially warned yet at all? If not, it's about time.

Although they do mention GNU-FDL at the bottom (in difficult to read
dark blue on black) it seems to me that this should link to a text of
the licence.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: <span>

body:
On Apr 27, 2004, at 07:56, David Friedland wrote:
> I wish you the best of luck in your campaign. I've asked for <span>
> tags  TWICE before and got shot down twice with the explanation that
> <span> tags make the wikitext harder to read (as though <div> tags
> were somehow better)

<div> tags are *also* bad, as are <font> tags. They're already there,
though, and asking for something to be *added* and asking for something
to be *removed* are different types of requests.

The idea that a <span> with an inline style is "better" than <font>
however is ludicrous; they are of precisely identical complexity (they
must specify the same information, though using a different syntax) and
equally lack semantic value. <span>'s only theoretical value is in
creating semantically meaningful pseudo-tags via class specifications,
something which is only useful if you also control the global style
sheet.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: fennec at eh.net

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:
> Because for true Cosmotheists like me, the TRUTH is
> SACRED!
...
> That is "why", Timwi, because for true Cosmotheists,
> like me, the TRUTH is actually SACRED!
...
> I just have already done so, Timwi, because for true
> Cosmotheists like me, the TRUTH is SACRED and should
> always be upheld for its own sake!
...
> It is my SACRED DUTY as a true COSMOTHEIST to always
> uphold and support the WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY, and
> for their own sake, too!

This is all *very* interesting. However, I would characterize your
behaviour on Wikipedia regarding this matter as being counterproductive if
it is indeed spreading this truth which you profess to be so interested
in. Consider:  calling people "censorious POV bigots" and making frequent
references to an "ilk", whether or not such accusations and names are true
or justifiable, actually does little or nothing help your cause, and does
much to hinder people's acceptance of it and of you.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] It remains true that some people are just impossible to
	"reason" with, Jimbo?

body:
Dear Jimbo,

You said:

"I'm not one to comment on detailed content disputes,
since those are beyond my realm of comfort for the
most part, but is it possible that there could be a
compromise that retains the link _where_ he wants it,
but in a section labelled "Examples of modern
anti-semitism" or something like that?"

That might be acceptable, but, that is not what would
actually maintain a NPOV within all articles, Jimbo.

In fact, the only real reason that I wanted to add the
http://www.Jewwatch.com pov link to the
other[[Judaism]] article under "criticisms" was only
to illustrate the double-standards and the lying
hypocrisy of Jews deleting that slanderous pov link to
Jewwatch.com, but then their double-standard of them
not also deleting the four slanderous pov links to
[[cosmotheism]].

It is very clear that the real "people" that are
actually being "just impossible" to "reason" with
is not me and Sam Spade can actually attest to that
fact. :D

"The problem with putting Jew Watch in the section
'Criticism' is that it lends too much credence to a
website that mostly consists of insane
rants.  It isn't "Criticism" in the sense of rational
respectful disagreement, it's just a huge pile of
nonsense."

Indeed, as are those slanderous and that huge pile of
pov garbage four "criticism" links to the religion
of[[cosmotheism]] article.

If you delete one link to such pov insane rants, for
[[Judaism]] then you must do the same thing within the
[[cosmotheism]] article under the four linked and
slanderous and false [[criticisms]] of this religion
as well. That is maintaining the Wiki NPOV as I see
it, and doesn't reflect double-standards, but, only
fairness, Jimbo.

"As to Paul's rantings on the mailing list, I strongly
advise him to coooool it."

If you were being constantly and falsely slandered,
blocked, banned, and censored, would you have been so
"coooool" with it?
I honestly do doubt it, Jimbo. LOL! :D

"If I were on the arbitration committee, and this came
before me, I'd vote for a ban and be done with it."

And then you would lose all credibility, Jimbo,
because you didn't "walk the talk" regarding NPOV.
Not very wise, Jimbo, being so "rash" is it?

"Every time someone accuses us of censorship, etc., we
should take it seriously."

You should, but, you have not, which is disappointing.
I would have expected you to be a bit more "morally
courageous" and "fair", Jimbo. Perhaps, I was wrong.

"Are we being too quick to judge?"

Yes, you and some others surely are doing so.

"Are we giving in to a temptation to suppress
information that we aren't comfortable with?"

Obviously so.

"Are we being too harsh about something that is
essentially a personality conflict, or a user who
lacks social graces?"

Yes, indeed, but not actually on my part. :D
Some people just can't handle the WHOLE TRUTHS
of REALITY, but, only what they want to hear! :D

"But, after that, it remains true that some people are
just impossible, and it's a shame."

It remains true that some people are just impossible
to "reason" with, Jimbo, and that is a "shame".

I guess that is true, Jimbo, most especially, for any
of those people that are "rationally challenged" or
that are just such "moral cowards" that they will not
ever stand up for the TRUTH and for what is factually
ever RIGHT.

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

--Jimbo

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] All right, let's tone it down

body:
I hope we can all discuss the weighty issues affecting the
English-language Wikipedia without resorting to personal remarks.

The following verbiage could just as easily be expressed in
non-inflammatory terms:

-- the group or "ilk" ... are bigots ... and liars

++ "I strongly object to what they said and did."

Thanks.

Ed Poor, Wikien-l mailing list administrator


from_name: Jim Redmond

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in the news...

body:
...and with contributor interviews, to boot.  I'm surprised nobody's
mentioned it yet - perhaps they're just being modest.  :)

Note: Salon.com is a subscription site, but they offer a free "day pass"
for those who endure a brief ad.  You will not be able to read the whole
article without doing so.

Everyone is an editor

In the wacky wiki world, a Web browser is all you need to start
contributing. But when the goal is to create an encyclopedia, such
democracy has some pitfalls.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Sam Williams

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/04/27/wikipedia/index.html

--
Jim Redmond (jredmond)
jim at scrubnugget.com


from_name: Peter Gervai

subject: [Wikipedia-l] <span>

body:
hello,

from time to time I would like to use <span> tag for inline element
styling, but it's not supported, so I have to use <div> and dirty tricks to
get it done, but it's not the same: since DIV is not an inherent inline
element, it's very hard to use it for blending something into the normal
text flow (like math for example, see my hack on meta/mediawiki user
guide/math using div instead of span).

maybe i'm wrong and there shouldn't be such styling on wikipedia pages
(people against tags would say "it makes wikitext harder to read for nontech
people"), so please share your opinion. I would like to use span, and would
like to have it enabled in mediawiki pages. As far as I know it does not
present cross-scripting or other vulnerabilities (I didn't explore this topic
too deep though).

if nobody objects or convinces me that I'm on the road to hell I'll try to
convince brion (which is probably the hardest part :)).

thanks,
peter


from_name: Timwi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The proliferation of article series boxes

body:
David Friedland wrote:

> There have recently been a proliferation with the article series boxes.
> This is a sign that we are in dire need of the category system.

Hm. I totally didn't realise that the categorisation system would make
these series boxes obsolete. That's a real shame! With the
categorisation system, the editors lose control over the appearance of
things. But then again, things should probably look the same everywhere,
as I'm glad the TOC does.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism?

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote:

> In my actual "view" as opposed to your own "pov",
> everyone here isn't a bigot, censor, liar, etc. etc.
> etc,
> BUT, the group or "ilk" that is falsely slandering me,
> lying hypocritically, and that is always falsely
> attempting to have me blocked, banned, and censored,
> are bigots, censors, and liars, Timwi.

And what exactly makes you care about them? Why are you so concerned
that they exist if their "wrong-doing" is only confined to Wikipedia
anyway? If you just forget about Wikipedia, they won't influence you or
your life anymore.

> [...] that are falsely undermining the Wiki NPOV and many of
> the stated "principles" and Wiki "policies" and the
> "objectivity" of this project as a Whole.

I don't understand your emotional attachment with Wikipedia. Why does it
matter to you whether Wikipedia follow their own policies (NPOV or
others) or not? Why do you care if it's objective or not?

Think about this for yourself, and answer these questions to yourself.
If you don't have an answer that satisfies you, then maybe you should
really just leave us and let us continue our slandering, censorous POV
bigotry in peace.

Timwi


from_name: KNOTT, T

body:
Mr Paul Vogel wrote

 "for true Cosmotheists like me, the TRUTH is
SACRED!" ...

"because for true Cosmotheists,
like me, the TRUTH is actually SACRED!"
...
"and because the TRUTH is SACRED to
all true Cosmotheists,"

...
"because for true
Cosmotheists like me, the TRUTH is SACRED and should
always be upheld for its own sake!"

...
"It is my SACRED DUTY as a true COSMOTHEIST to always
uphold and support the WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY..."

"True Cosmotheists will always uphold the light of the
WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY "

Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it more
important, it only bores everyone. Please take this somewhere else. Your
talk page perhaps.

Theresa Knott TRUE shutttheFupist!


from_name: Rick

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in the news: An interview with Martin Harper
	in "Salon"

body:
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/04/27/wikipedia/index_np.html

RickK

---------------------------------
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body:
I don't mind having a link to the site somewhere on Wikipedia (Maybe at [[Googlebomb]]?  But he keeps trying to disguise it as something else.

RickK

"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
Wikipedia strives to be accurate and neutral. Anti-semitic sites such as
Mr. Vogel wants linked directly from the "Judaism" or "Jew" articles is
neither.

In the interests of bending over backwards to be fair, however, I would
like to see that link put SOMEWHERE. How about [[Holocaust denial]] or
[[Anti-Semitism]]?

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: We have to find a clearer way to say "edit this
	page..."

body:
Daniel P.B.Smith wrote:

> Just what part of "edit this page" doesn't he understand? :-)

It is not obvious to people who are unfamiliar with the system that they
can actually edit the page. When they see the "Edit this link" page, the
message it brings across goes contrary to what they firmly believe in
(namely, that nobody can edit the page just like that) and so they
subconsciously filter it out. Even if they consciously think about it,
they probably come to the conclusion that clicking on the link will
definitely bring up a password prompt or similar.

There isn't much we can do about it other than working on making the way
Wikipedia works more known to the general public. That is a slow and
gradual process.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: PhatNav: "A Wikipedia"

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

> It is my understanding of trademark law that we need to police this to
> some extent, or we run the risk of, for example, Microsoft someday
> putting out a proprietary encyclopedia under our name.

I'm not sure what you mean by "police this to some extent", but if I
were you, I would have already officially threatened them legal action
from the Wikimedia Foundation.

Aren't they legally required to fix this within 24 hours of
notification? I notified them two weeks ago. I did it again just now (of
course with a clear disclaimer that I am in no official capacity). Have
they been officially warned yet at all? If not, it's about time.

Timwi


body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Wikipedia strives to be accurate and neutral. Anti-semitic sites such as
> Mr. Vogel wants linked directly from the "Judaism" or "Jew" articles is
> neither.
>
> In the interests of bending over backwards to be fair, however, I would
> like to see that link put SOMEWHERE. How about [[Holocaust denial]] or
> [[Anti-Semitism]]?

[[Anti-Semitism]], would be my personal preference. The site is not
really about Holocaust denial in itself.

Timwi


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
>         Wales says he is already talking with some of the larger search
>         engine players about licensing specific portions of the Wikipedia
>         knowledge base
>
> This must be a misunderstanding. Jimbo or the Wikimedia Foundation do not
> have particular rights to the content, it is freely licensed to the
> general public under the GNU Free Documentation License by the authors.

You're right, Erik, but the line you quote in the article is
technically correct, too.  The way the article is written, it sounds
like these search engine players would have to execute some special
license agreement with us, which is of course not true.

But I have talked to them about using our content.  It's a funny kind
of sales job -- "here's our stuff, use it, it's free!"  And the
"specific portions" is that someone at Yahoo asked me about using our
movie star biographies, and I said "Sure, fine" and suggested that
they donate money as well, a suggestion which was received with
enthusiasm.  No results yet, but big companies move very slowly... :-)

> Another side effect is that if, for some reason, Jimbo would lose interest
> in Wikipedia, or try to do something with it that the community does not
> support, we could just take the content somewhere else and continue
> working on it there. The project can, by virtue of its license, never die;
> it will always reincarnate.

Absolutely, and this is essential.  Volunteers volunteer because what
we are doing is nonproprietary.  Just being a nonprofit is not enough.

--Jimbo