from_name: Stirling Newberry

references:
<200501041350.05668.nsk2@wikinerds.org>
	<BDFFDB68.A2EB%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<20050104152527.GG10191@thingy.apana.org.au>

body:
References and a reference engine would be a tremendous help, both for
readability, and for writing. I would like to suggest a project:
wikicite which would list all available books and create a simple tag
mechanism for citing them.

Thus something like {{wikicite:Wealth of Nations}} would expand out to
a canonical Smith, Adam etc.

Getting journal articles would be next, and harder, but could be worked
out over time. This would make entering sources and bibliography easy,
standardised, and current. It would also keep the burden of generating
citation lists down, and would be a generally useful resource
everywhere.


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Old norse

body:
> Mark,
> You are like an old record, stuck in the same phrases time and again.
> You have annoyed and insulted many people and you are unappologetic
> about it. Slander is also a bit much, you may not like what Yann said
> about you, but similar things have been said by many. As to you
> proposing new languages, even that is not really the whole point. When a
> language is proposed you have to weigh in every time with what you think
> is the opinion of the people on the list and give it no time to form
> about what is asked/proposed. When you ask questions as you did about
> how the old Norse will be written etc they are often good and valid
> questions. Take some time to build some credit and try to be nice, not
> insult people.
>
> Another thing you could do is appreciate the positions of others. People
> do not have to agree with you and they may still achieve things that
> even you think are worthwhile.

I'm not really sure where all this is coming from, but I have pretty
much the same thing to say back at you.

Mark


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Old norse

body:
Since Old Norse has the ISO code non, I'm sure the subdomain would be
non:, regardless.

Mark

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:32:26 +0100, James R. Johnson
<modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> That would be a nice wiki to start!  Old Norse already has the language code
> "non," though.  Old Norse has a rich literature and would be quite easy to
> get started...there are several Old Norse mailing lists, and lots of people
> who could contribute.  If I could a vote for non.wikipedia.org, I would.
>
> James
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Vegard Aukrust
> Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:57 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Old norse
>
> I want to start a Wikipedia page in old norse (gamalnorska), and I suggest
> the language code "gno".
>
> Vegard Aukrust
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project
	Has Been Around For A While

body:
Agreed... that seems anti-wiki to me.

Mark

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 10:04:17 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> NSK wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday 04 January 2005 17:55, Traroth wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Does your proposition mean that only experts will be
> >>authorized to contribute ? That's a major change in
> >>the Wikipedia spirit, and I desagree totally.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Non-experts contribute text, provided they give their full legal name and
> >contact details. Experts contribute text and check the non-experts'
> >contributions.
> >
> Let's hope not!
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Proposed order for Jan 5

body:
The following order is proposed to get ahead of apache/memcached and squid needs for a few weeks (or maybe a bit longer.. .maybe:)) This will take the sites to about 50 servers.

For anyone who missed the last few days, we hit 1300 requests per second sustained on Monday and more Apache capability is needed to handle much more than that, as well as to allow for the inevitable failures. Still have 4-5 broken machines but those won't be fixed soon enough.

In other news, real transfer rates went to the limit of a 100 megabit/s connection on Monday and it appears that it'll be necessary to have the gigabit fiber module installed and in service to handle next Monday's load, if not sooner.

Switching for this order is to be handled by going to signle connections, internal only, for all apaches not doing squid or memcached duty. Discussion of the core switch seems just about done but won't be necessary for this order (the next is another matter...:)) Likely to be around US$7,000 if Cisco is unwilling to donate - and probably aren't going ot be ready to go ahead soon enough to matter, since the US gov IRS has until March to respond and CIsco says up to 90 days.. so best to brace for spending that money and using Cisco for access/apache/database type switches, if they are willing.

A master database server order, with lots of drive capability (12-16) to be master of a split off en+ja server set is planned soon. Likely to be 16GB dual Opteron with many 140GB 15,00 RPM SCSI disks for around $15,000 initially.

Suda is working fine as master - no load issues with it at near-record traffic levels on Monday and it appears to have plenty of requests and disk capacity for a few months.

4  	iServ R100 "squid or memcached/apache"
CPU:  Intel P4 540 (3.2GHz) 1MB Cache - HT - 800 FSB LGA775
RAM:  3GB (2 x 1GB, 2 x 512MB) DDRII-533 - Interleaved
Management:  IPMI 2.0 Controller
Hot-Swap HDD :  Seagate 200GB 7200.7 (7.2Krpm-8MB Cache-NCQ) SATA
Low Profile CD-ROM:  Slimline 24X CD-ROM
Floppy:  1.44MB Floppy
WARRANTY: Standard 3 Year - Return to Depot
NOTES:  Fedora Core3 or recommend 	 $1896.00 	 $7584.00

6 	iServ R100 "apache"
CPU:  Intel P4 540 (3.2GHz) 1MB Cache - HT - 800 FSB LGA775
RAM:  512MB (2 x 256MB) DDRII-533 - Interleaved
Management:  IPMI 2.0 Controller
Hot-Swap HDD :  Seagate 200GB 7200.7 (7.2Krpm-8MB Cache-NCQ) SATA
Low Profile CD-ROM:  Slimline 24X CD-ROM
Floppy:  1.44MB Floppy
WARRANTY: Standard 3 Year - Return to Depot
NOTES:  Fedora Core3 or recommend 	 $1221.00 	 $7326.00

	Total:  	 $14910.00

Was some discussion of alternative CPUs for benchmarking. Getting the easy machines purchased and installed soon before I go to bed came before getting fancy with this order...:)


list: wikien-l

from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Query admin powers

body:
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:47:31 -0800 (PST), James Rosenzweig
<jwrosenzweig at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry so long -- as usual my comments have probably
> outlasted the attention of the mailing list.  Happy
> new year to all who observe the Gregorian calendar,

Heh. One new year is as good as another. If we were to have a
"natural" new year, it would fall on the solstice, not ten days later.
Let us confound Julius and Gregory and issue a general reversion.
Backdated, of course.

I understand what you are saying about long-established editors, but
my experience with Adam is that he relies on opinion rather than
sources, at least in this rather specialised area of constitutional
theory and practice, where very few of us are experts and we must rely
on the published opinions of those who are. To note one point, Adam
seems to think that the constitutional powers of the Governor-General
are delegated by the Queen under s2. This is a popular (and partisan)
notion, but the reality is that the constitutional powers of the
Governor-General are given to him in his own right and they derive
from the people rather than the monarch. s64, for example, is the
reserve power which Sir John Kerr used to dismiss Gough Whitlam in
1975. It is given to the Governor-General alone and cannot be
exercised by the Queen, nor is it one that is subject to any sort of
direction, instruction or approval from the Queen. It cannot be
withdrawn or amended by the Queen. It was set down by our founding
fathers at a peoples' convention, given authority by the people in the
ballots to approve the Constitution, and may only be amended or
removed with the consent of the people under a double majority laid
down in s128. The Queen has no say in the matter.

That is one example out of many, and while Adam may be a whiz in other
areas, it is clear to me that in the matter of constitutional
practice, he does not display a great deal of knowledge or
understanding. I ask him for sources to back up his opinions, he
becomes evasive and abusive, and a tame admin appears to issue blocks,
reverts and protections. I do not know Adam well enough to state
whether this is his usual practice, but to my mind it reflects very
poorly on him.

--
Peter in Canberra


from_name: nas ral

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
The block should be removed. Things said on an IRC channel on freenode
are things not said in the wikipedia namespace. Just as emails sent
through wikipedia are not covered by wikipedia policy.

I saw what was said between you and Libertas. You said some pretty
nasty things as well. You are CLEARLY too emotionally/personally
involved to issue a block against Libertas, and it should be lifted
immediately. IRC is not part of the wikipedia namespace, no matter
what the [[l33t hax0r]] #wikipedia junkies would like to think. It
would be an embarrasment to wikipedia.org if it was.

Your last act as an admin should be to get another admin to block you
for the exact same time that Libertas was erroneously blocked. Its a
shame, since you seem like a nice person, and this may have been an
unfortunate lapse.


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] FYI: A Case of Mutual Aid: Wikipedia, Politeness,
	and Perspective Taking

body:
Joseph Reagle wrote:
> I would be interested in any feedback, including corrections of my
> characterization of Wikipedia and any pointers to historical archives that
> shed light on both the "epistemological stance" and norms of politeness. I
> expect the former came from Larry Sanger and was present in the Nupedia as
> well, and the latter is part of Jimbo Wales's personality.

Actually, NPOV comes from me.

--Jimbo


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] French squids

body:
Somebody needs to commit to finally setting up and testing these
things. Any volunteers? What exactly remains to be done with them?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Proposed order for Jan 5

body:
David Wendt wrote:
> You ever think of buying a couple extra sticks of ram once in a while
> for the older ones, or is it impossible to upgrade the older ones due to
> lack of space/inability to shut down without exorbant amounts of load on
> other machines?

It is not impossible, but our experience with this is not good.  Yes,
it sounds simple, but the fact is, machines die when I touch them.  :-)

--Jimbo


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Old norse

body:
That would be a nice wiki to start!  Old Norse already has the language code
"non," though.  Old Norse has a rich literature and would be quite easy to
get started...there are several Old Norse mailing lists, and lots of people
who could contribute.  If I could a vote for non.wikipedia.org, I would.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Vegard Aukrust
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:57 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Old norse

I want to start a Wikipedia page in old norse (gamalnorska), and I suggest
the language code "gno".

Vegard Aukrust
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikitech-l] stats Webalizer

body:
I noticed that stats of Webalizer are not updated since october.

http://wikimedia.org/stats/nl.wikipedia.org//

Is that normal?

Those,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/NL/Sitemap.htm
 are still updated. So there is no real need for. It is only to know.

[[gebruiker:walter]]


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Uncle Ed is going offline

body:
Well, folks, it had to happen eventually. I can't access the Internet at
work anymore except for STRICTLY WORK-RELATED stuff. (I can't even log
on to the mailing list page to turn on digest access.)

So for the foreseeable future you'll all have to struggle along
valiantly without me. Don't worry, you'll manage splendidly (most will
hardly notice I'm gone ;-)

I hope to come back eventually, bringing an entire ESL class full of
high-school youth or college students with me. Would you like to have an
infusion of a couple dozen of Uncle Ed's friends from the Unification
Movement? I could teach them the wiki-way like Prof. Fuzheado did...

(Please cc me in your reply, as I'm not connected to the list.)

Uncle Ed (user:Ed Poor)


from_name: Giovanni

subject: [Wikitech-l] Parser

body:
I've tried how you said but nothing to do.

Giovanni Putignano


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] patrolled edits?

body:
The idea is that by marking an edit or a new page as patrolled, you
certify that someone has looked at it to check it's bona fide. It is a
way to avoid that some edits get checked five times and others not at
all.

Andre Engels

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:10:27 -0500, Pierre Abbat <phma at phma.hn.org> wrote:
> What's a patrolled edit? I looked at a new page on jbo: and it asked me if I
> wanted to mark the page as "patrolled". I looked in the glossary on en: and
> other places on en: and meta and didn't find an explanation.


body:
Maybe a simple link at the bottom of a page saying "Authors of this Article"
with their contributions next to their names, somewhat like the differences
function we have already?  And in the user page, user contributions with
percentage of articles contributed by that person (say an article on "Middle
English" contributed 78% by UserAlpha, and 10% by UserBeta, and other
percentages for other users).  Just an idea.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of NSK
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 12:50 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms -
ProjectHas Been Around For A While

On Tuesday 04 January 2005 06:40, Shaun MacPherson wrote:
> I think the easiest way to make Wikipedia more
> credible is with a Fact and Reference Project

It sounds like a good idea.

But it's not enough: You should also limit somehow the anon contributions
and
employ maintainers for each article (this is what I do on most of my
projects). The names (full names) of the authors and maintainers must be
visible in the article, together with 1 or 2-line short bios demonstrating
their expertise (degrees or work experience), as well as a References
section
(which should be long - very long).

See my policy here:

http://nerdypc.wikinerds.org/index.php/Help:Editing_process

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Silverback and the 3RR

body:
Just to weigh in here for a second: don't accuse AndyL of this. Blocks
expire automatically and we've been having issues with blocks not
expiring - it's some sort of bug in MediaWiki (I think). Admins must
manually unblock users.

TBSDY

actionforum at comcast.net wrote:
> Well you still haven't removed the block even though it should have expired 20 minutes ago.  Once again abusing your priviledge and shirking responsibility.
>
>                           -- Silverback
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
>
>>Reverting and adding is still reverting. If it weren't then that would open
>>a huge loophole in the 3R rule. You were warned, you ignored the warning
>>just as you ignored requests to provide citations for the paragraph to show
>>that it wasn't original research.
>>
>>I'm not sure what you are referring to below since you provide no context
>>for the adjectives you cite but I'm certainly not immune to having my
>>writing edited though I think if you go on a vindictive binge and won't
>>exactly enhance your credibility.
>>
>>AndyL


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Journal denies existence of Yopu article cited by
	Tteexx/Stewped

body:
I would be more than happy for you to do this, as it will help if the
article ever gets recreated and then resubmitted to VfD.

TBSDY

dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:

[snip]

> Since the VfD discussion page asks that it not be edited further, and the
> article is deleted so its talk page is unavailable, I am presenting this here
> for the record. However, I would like to add it to the VfD discussion page
> with a suitable explanation if the acting sysop, Ta bu shi da yu, will give
> me persmission to do so.


from_name: Mathias Schindler

subject: [Wikitech-l] Dupes in the Database

body:
Mathias Schindler wrote:

> I guess this is not a wanted feature.

It seems that I was totally wrong. I just ignored cur_namespaces. Sorry
for any confusion I might have caused.

Mathias


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Query admin powers

body:
FWIW, I'm going to unprotect that page and let the author contribute to
it. I only ask the contributor to cite their sources. They should also
be aware that I'll be able to verify this information if I do a quick
trip to the State Library of New South Wales.

Ta bu shi da yu

Skyring wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 05:43:26 -0700, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>
>>I would just wait for him to return from vacation. While seniority does not
>>exist on Wikipedia officially, in practice it does and certain editors such
>>as Adam Carr have a degree of favor. Other mechanisms for solving the
>>problem such as negotiating with him or mediating will also require his
>>presence.
>
>
> Adam may be on holiday, but he has made several changes to the article
> and the discussion page, where he states that he "can't check his
> references" at the moment. One might ask why he feels he is able to
> revert my edits, which I have backed up by some authoritative and
> readily available texts on the matter, if he is without access to
> reference material.
>
> In any case, he is flat out wrong on several points. No appeal to
> seniority or rankism can justify a stubborn insistence on untruths.
>
> Gough Whitlam and the events of the 1975 dismissal are well enough
> known that I can be sure that there are other editors available who
> are supplied with the standard texts, such as Paul Kelly's definitive
> text "November 1975".


from_name: NSK

subject: [Wikitech-l] licensing issues, BSD doc license vs GNU

body:
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 07:03, Edward Peschko wrote:
>     1) would I be able to encorporate GNU FDL content as long as
>        citations were given?

For all of my answers, keep in mind: This is not legal advice and I am not an
expert on the discussed topic. The information I give may be incorrect or not
applicable.

It is my understanding that you can use GFDL material in your work only if you
release it under the GFDL or you use the fair use doctrine or the fair
dealing laws. You need to contact a law consultant and ask.

This is not legal advice.

>
>     2) would this prevent said wiki being eventually merged with
>        mediawiki (under, say wikibooks, or in its own category)?

It is my understanding that Wikimedia projects utilise the fair use doctrine
of the United States, so they incorporate non-GFDL material in their GFDL
works. You need to contact a law consultant and ask.

This is not legal advice.

> I see that at 'http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html' they
> list the Free BSD license as 'compatible' with the GPL, but I'm
> not exactly sure what that means...\

It is my understanding that the BSDL allows sublicensing, so that's why BSDL
material can be sublicensed under the GPL. But GPL does not allow
sublicensing. You need to contact a law consultant and ask.

This is not legal advice.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


body:
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 06:40, Shaun MacPherson wrote:
> I think the easiest way to make Wikipedia more
> credible is with a Fact and Reference Project

It sounds like a good idea.

But it's not enough: You should also limit somehow the anon contributions and
employ maintainers for each article (this is what I do on most of my
projects). The names (full names) of the authors and maintainers must be
visible in the article, together with 1 or 2-line short bios demonstrating
their expertise (degrees or work experience), as well as a References section
(which should be long - very long).

See my policy here:

http://nerdypc.wikinerds.org/index.php/Help:Editing_process

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Joseph Reagle wrote:

>On Tuesday 04 January 2005 15:18, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>>Actually, NPOV comes from me.
>>
>
>Ok, that was just a guess -- I'm looking forward to digging into the origins
>of the core policies, including who or what group is responsible for the
>good manners? ;)
>
>
Jimbo has certainly set the example, but I think a good bit of it
is a sort of "social Darwinism" :-) - editors are self-selected
and tend to be content-focussed (there's so much to do!), while the
bouts of arguing and namecalling suck up time and energy. So although
there are high-profile exceptions, nastiness is basically an
unsuccessful strategy; even if the nasty manages to chase one person
away from an article, at some point other people show up, some
thicker-skinned than the previous, and eventually the nasty gets
tired and gives up. I've been able to get my way in some cases by
doing nothing more than waiting for three months.

The Darwinistic process does depend on a large-ish population of
editors; from what I hear, the smaller WPs are much more likely to
be held hostage by a bad editor.

Stan


from_name: Christopher Mahan

body:
As far as I am concerned, that would also be Jimbo.

Itself a subset of wikilove.

--- Joseph Reagle <reagle at mit.edu> wrote:

> I'm looking forward to digging into
> the origins
> of the core policies, including who or what group is responsible
> for the
> good manners? ;)

As far as I am concerned, that would also be Jimbo.

It falls under the concept of wikilove.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Joseph Reagle

body:
I recently posted a draft that folks might be interested in:

http://reagle.org/joseph/2004/agree/wikip-agree.html
[[[
A Case of Mutual Aid: Wikipedia, Politeness, and Perspective Taking
...
This paper explores the character of ?mutual aid? and interdependent
decision making within the Wikipedia. I provide a brief introduction to
Wikipedia, the key terms associated with group decision making, and the
Wikipedia dispute resolution process. I then focus on the cultural norms
within Wikipedia that frame participation as a cooperative endeavor. I
conclude by identifying some notions from negotiation literature that may
be inappropriate or require adaptation to the Wikipedia case.
]]]

I would be interested in any feedback, including corrections of my
characterization of Wikipedia and any pointers to historical archives that
shed light on both the "epistemological stance" and norms of politeness. I
expect the former came from Larry Sanger and was present in the Nupedia as
well, and the latter is part of Jimbo Wales's personality. Regardless of
this that this week on questions of expertise, I find these two variables
to be rather complementary as I discuss further in the paper.

--
Regards,          http://www.mit.edu/~reagle/
Joseph Reagle     E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65  BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E


subject: [Wikitech-l] Proposed order for Jan 5

body:
Corrected order follows. Previous one incorrectly had 512MB of RAM for the 6 Apaches. 1GB is desired for those to allow for enough active connections at high load.

quantity  	name and description  	price  	subtotal
4 	iServ R100 "squid or memcached/apache"
CPU:  Intel P4 540 (3.2GHz) 1MB Cache - HT - 800 FSB LGA775
RAM:  3GB (2 x 1GB, 2 x 512MB) DDRII-533 - Interleaved
Management:  IPMI 2.0 Controller
Hot-Swap HDD :  Seagate 200GB 7200.7 (7.2Krpm-8MB Cache-NCQ) SATA
Low Profile CD-ROM:  Slimline 24X CD-ROM
Floppy:  1.44MB Floppy
WARRANTY: Standard 3 Year - Return to Depot
NOTES:  Fedora Core3 or recommend 	 $1896.00 	 $7584.00

6 	iServ R100 "apache"
CPU:  Intel P4 540 (3.2GHz) 1MB Cache - HT - 800 FSB LGA775
RAM:  1GB (2 x 512MB) DDRII-533 - Interleaved
Management:  IPMI 2.0 Controller
Hot-Swap HDD :  Seagate 200GB 7200.7 (7.2Krpm-8MB Cache-NCQ) SATA
Low Profile CD-ROM:  Slimline 24X CD-ROM
Floppy:  1.44MB Floppy
WARRANTY: Standard 3 Year - Return to Depot
NOTES:  Fedora Core3 or recommend 	 $1347.00 	 $8082.00

	Total:  	 $15666.00


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Query admin powers

body:
Fred Bauer is an arbitrator? Huh?

Ta bu shi da yu

Nicholas Knight wrote:
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>> I would just wait for him to return from vacation. While seniority
>> does not
>> exist on Wikipedia officially, in practice it does and certain editors
>> such
>> as Adam Carr have a degree of favor. Other mechanisms for solving the
>> problem such as negotiating with him or mediating will also require his
>> presence.
>
>
> Wonderful. We get done making fun of the "cabal", and an arbitrator of
> all people comes up with something like this.
>
> Blocking work on an article because Adam finds it inconvenient to do
> research is not acceptable, no matter what his informal status is.


from_name: David Wendt

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:

>Edward Peschko wrote:
>
>
>>and have pretty much narrowed it down to two:
>>
>>    1) GNU Free Documentation License
>>    2) Free BSD Documentation License
>>
>>
>
>What in particular led you to exclude CC-BY-SA from Creative Commons?
>
>
>
>
Causality.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Proposed order for Jan 5

body:
user_Jamesday wrote:

>Corrected order follows. Previous one incorrectly had 512MB of RAM for the 6 Apaches. 1GB is desired for those to allow for enough active connections at high load.
>
>quantity  	name and description  	price  	subtotal
>4 	iServ R100 "squid or memcached/apache"
>CPU:  Intel P4 540 (3.2GHz) 1MB Cache - HT - 800 FSB LGA775
>RAM:  3GB (2 x 1GB, 2 x 512MB) DDRII-533 - Interleaved
>Management:  IPMI 2.0 Controller
>Hot-Swap HDD :  Seagate 200GB 7200.7 (7.2Krpm-8MB Cache-NCQ) SATA
>Low Profile CD-ROM:  Slimline 24X CD-ROM
>Floppy:  1.44MB Floppy
>WARRANTY: Standard 3 Year - Return to Depot
>NOTES:  Fedora Core3 or recommend 	 $1896.00 	 $7584.00
>
>6 	iServ R100 "apache"
>CPU:  Intel P4 540 (3.2GHz) 1MB Cache - HT - 800 FSB LGA775
>RAM:  1GB (2 x 512MB) DDRII-533 - Interleaved
>Management:  IPMI 2.0 Controller
>Hot-Swap HDD :  Seagate 200GB 7200.7 (7.2Krpm-8MB Cache-NCQ) SATA
>Low Profile CD-ROM:  Slimline 24X CD-ROM
>Floppy:  1.44MB Floppy
>WARRANTY: Standard 3 Year - Return to Depot
>NOTES:  Fedora Core3 or recommend 	 $1347.00 	 $8082.00
>
>	Total:  	 $15666.00
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
That should tide us over until we have enough $$$ for new servers.

You ever think of buying a couple extra sticks of ram once in a while
for the older ones, or is it impossible to upgrade the older ones due to
lack of space/inability to shut down without exorbant amounts of load on
other machines?


from_name: Nicholas Knight

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
actionforum at comcast.net wrote:
> Shall we say one abuse per month per sysop, use it strategically?

Perhaps you could show me where that came from in "absent a pattern of
abuse" ?


from_name: Allan Crossman

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
actionforum writes:

 > However, I don't think he did anything wrong using info available to
 > all, to figure out and speculate on a talk page about who libertas,
 > was, wasn't or might be.

Thanks. For the record, when I say I discussed her location, it wasn't
something specific, merely which country she was in.

nas ral writes:

 > I saw what was said between you and Libertas. You said some pretty
 > nasty things as well. You are CLEARLY too emotionally/personally
 > involved to issue a block against Libertas

I know, I know.

 > Your last act as an admin should be to get another admin to block you
 > for the exact same time that Libertas was erroneously blocked. Its a
 > shame, since you seem like a nice person, and this may have been an
 > unfortunate lapse.

Well, that's not really necessary; this incident has given me a strong
desire to take some time off, which I am doing. :-)

--
Allan Crossman - a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk
The Moon is Waning Crescent (41% of Full)


body:
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 15:18, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> Actually, NPOV comes from me.

Ok, that was just a guess -- I'm looking forward to digging into the origins
of the core policies, including who or what group is responsible for the
good manners? ;)


list: foundation-l

from_name: Edward Peschko

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: licensing issues,
	BSD doc license vs GNU

body:
> >     2) would this prevent said wiki being eventually merged with
> >        mediawiki (under, say wikibooks, or in its own category)?
> >
> >
> > I see that at 'http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html' they
> > list the Free BSD license as 'compatible' with the GPL, but I'm
> > not exactly sure what that means...
> >
> > Ed
>
> Hello Ed,
>
> MW: MediaWiki is the software and is published under GPL.
> WP: WikiPedia is the free encyclopedia project
> WM: WikiMedia is a foundation that host several projects (including
> WikiPedia).

Right.. I understand the distinction between the software's license
and the content's license - but what I was wondering is does
the wikimedia *foundation* have a policy against accepting a
sister project's content with a different license than the Gnu FDL?

I sincerely believe that the FreeBSD is a better fit for my wiki
than the GnuFDL - especially because it can be sublicensed - but hesitate
to do so if it would jeapordize having the wiki accepted as a sister
project..

Anyways, I'm moving this over to foundation-l, now that I look at it,
it seems a better fit there..

Ed


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: licensing issues, BSD doc license vs GNU


subject: [Wikitech-l] French squids

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Somebody needs to commit to finally setting up and testing these
> things. Any volunteers? What exactly remains to be done with them?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
These things even hooked up, or are they waiting to be installed?


body:
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 15:18, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> Actually, NPOV comes from me.

Ok, that was just a guess -- I'm looking forward to digging into the origins
of the core policies, including who or what group is responsible for the
good manners? ;)

--
Regards,          http://www.mit.edu/~reagle/
Joseph Reagle     E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65  BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E


subject: [Wikitech-l] Proposed order for Jan 5

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>David Wendt wrote:
>
>
>>You ever think of buying a couple extra sticks of ram once in a while
>>for the older ones, or is it impossible to upgrade the older ones due to
>>lack of space/inability to shut down without exorbant amounts of load on
>>other machines?
>>
>>
>
>It is not impossible, but our experience with this is not good.  Yes,
>it sounds simple, but the fact is, machines die when I touch them.  :-)
>
>--Jimbo
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
Plus, I doubt the other apaches would cope with the load, while we
upgrade and test. We are running these things at 90-100% capacity.

Dont touch the machines! We cant deal with the loss of another! :P


from_name: Lars Aronsson

body:
Edward Peschko wrote:
> and have pretty much narrowed it down to two:
>
>     1) GNU Free Documentation License
>     2) Free BSD Documentation License

What in particular led you to exclude CC-BY-SA from Creative Commons?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


from_name: Traroth

subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
I'm very curious to see it. From time to time,
somebody speaks about it, but nothing happens. I would
like to see reactions about a testimony like "my 4
years daughter was killed by a US marine in Fallujah".
With a lot of readers/contributors in the United
States, it could be really funny...

Traroth

 --- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> a ?crit :
> Sep11wiki suffers from being too focused on one
> event. What we need is to have
> a general memorial wiki that would have Sep11 as
> just one of many internal
> WikiProjects. Such a project could also serve as a
> genealogy wiki (aka
> Wikipeople).
>
> -- mav
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> http://my.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

D?couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails !
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subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
BJ?rn Lindqvist writes:

 > stepping down sounds like a good idea.

Very well. I'll put in a request for de-sysoping.
--
Allan Crossman - a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk
The Moon is Waning Crescent (40% of Full)


from_name: BJörn Lindqvist

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
> I've been accused by User/Troll Libertas of being all "creepy" since I
> revealed "her" location after 172 asked me to investigate whether "she"
> might be User:Reithy. Libertas claims I've repeatedly revealed "her"
> location. This is sort of true. I did indeed look up "her" location and
> reveal it.

Even though it is very easy to track someones location from their IP,
most people do not know that. They feel that their privacy is being
violated when someone "reveal" in which nation/city they live and
which ISP they use. Therefore I think it is best to respect people's
(illusional) privacy and not make them feel violated by revealing
personal details. That she felt that she could reveal her location on
IRC doesn't matter. If you had a gay aquiantance who on a public forum
had written that he is gay, would you feel allowed to go tell the
world about his sexuality without permission?

> But "she" kept on with "her" insults, and finally, becoming Really
> Bloody Furious (tm) I blocked "her". This was possibly another mistake.
> I'll step down as a sysop, if people feel I should, but "she" seems like
> an obvious troll to me.

I have inspected her edit history for the recent few days and I cannot
find any trollish behaviour there. Since that was the only reason you
gave for blocking her (irc quarrels doesn't count), stepping down
sounds like a good idea.

--
mvh Bj?rn


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Old norse

body:
Vegard Aukrust wrote:

> I will use the modified latin alphabeth. Old norse is not so
> different from modern icelandic and often mistaken as that, but I
> want to use the same language the one you find in Norwegian texts
> from the 12th, 13th and 14th centuries. I don't find it more strange
> than latin, anglo-saxon or a lot of other old langiages. The letters
> which are not used in modern English are as follows: ?, o, ? and
> ? (but not ?, ?, ? or ? as in modern scandinavian).

As far as I know, Swedish linguists divide the development of the
Swedish language roughly into:

     --1225  Old Norse (fornnordiska), a pan-Scandinavian language
 1225--1526  Old Swedish (fornsvenska), starting to differ from Danish
 1526--      Modern Swedish (nysvenska), beginning with the New Testament

I guess the same goes for Danish and Norwegian? I have no idea of how
useful a Wikipedia in Old Norse will be, how you will find a norm for
correct spelling, how you will invent words for new innovations, or if
you will draw a line at 1225.  In Sweden, very few written documents
in Old Norse are available.  Much that was written when Christianity
was new here, was written in Latin, while Old Norse was mostly spoken.
There are far more written documents in Old Swedish, including
diaries, chronicles, poetry, contracts, laws and partial translations
of the Bible.  If you think you can write an encyclopedia in Old
Norse, I think you should go ahead.  Perhaps expanding the current
article on the [[en:Old Norse language]] could be a good start?

If it is of any help, I have digitized the first 10 years (1883-1894)
of "Arkiv for nordisk filologi" at http://runeberg.org/anf/

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Project Runeberg - free Nordic literature - http://runeberg.org/


body:
Does your proposition mean that only experts will be
authorized to contribute ? That's a major change in
the Wikipedia spirit, and I desagree totally.

Traroth

--- NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> a ?crit :

> But it's not enough: You should also limit somehow
> the anon contributions and
> employ maintainers for each article (this is what I
> do on most of my
> projects). The names (full names) of the authors and
> maintainers must be
> visible in the article, together with 1 or 2-line
> short bios demonstrating
> their expertise (degrees or work experience), as
> well as a References section
> (which should be long - very long).
>
> See my policy here:
>
>
http://nerdypc.wikinerds.org/index.php/Help:Editing_process
>
> --
> NSK
> The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
> Owner of the Wikinerds Portal
> http://portal.wikinerds.org
> Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

D?couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails !
Cr?ez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/


from_name: zhengzhu

subject: [Wikitech-l] problem with translation of the word "article"

body:
check the translation for 'nstab-main'. if it is not in the language
file, you can try add it. or you can just change
[[MediaWiki:nstab-main]].

-zhengzhu

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:17:29 +0200, dan-shk <dan-shk at bezeqint.net> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I've added an mediawiki system (Hebrew) to my site in.
>
> I found out that the word "article" at the top menu is in English
> instead of the system language that I chose.
>
> I've check the hebrew file - /languages/LanguageHe.php and its look fine
> - the article word was translated there.
>
> Some one has a clue for solving this problem (I know the php fundementals).
>
> My wiki system place in - http://daniel.koala.co.il/wiki2
>
> (Sorry about my english)
>
> Thank for your time
>
> Daniel S
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
zhengzhu


subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
 > Please don't. Just avoid being manipulated and provoked in the future.
 > Experience is a bit too good of a teacher, if this sort of comedy of
 > errors is to knock you out of the game completely.

Well, if and when I return from my Wiki-Vacation, I may, if I feel like
it, put in a request for sysophood again, and let the community decide
properly.

But thanks.
--
Allan Crossman - a.crossman at blueyonder.co.uk
The Moon is Waning Crescent (40% of Full)


from_name: VeryVerily

subject: [WikiEN-l] RfA/Gzornenplatz, Kevin Baas, Shorne, VeryVerily

body:
> This is an impossible situation. If there is no option for
> enforcement, then remedy #4 cannot apply to Ruy Lopez.  I am concerned
> about what I think is a serious oversight on the part of the
> Arbitration Committee.

This anomaly was actually pointed out earlier by Boraczek on talk
pages, and Mav's airy response looked to me like a reluctance to admit
the ArbCom (and he) had made yet another mistake in their rushing
through of this unconsidered decision.

I say the ArbCom but mostly it was just Mav and Raul, as the others
contributed little more than simply signing on.  Such low
participation makes it far more likely this sort of error will slip
through.  I hope the newly elected arbitrators regard themselves as
having more of a role than being a warm body.

VV


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: inter project links (was Patrol feature)

references:
<9OD09zQxpVB@erik_moeller> <41DA4921.6030406@myrealbox.com>
	<ba1b6b9f05010405575426f226@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Andrew Dunbar wrote:

>For some projects it is good to have automagic links. The English
>wiktionary is one. That project doesn't support disambiguation pages.
>The automagic link generator code could certainly be aware of which
>capitalisation mode is in use in each interproject and merge or split
>links accordingly. In the case of the English Wiktionary, we would
>only want automagic for the default namespace. Articles in other
>namespaces may have counterparts in interprojects with different
>titles. (Main Page is a special exception in the default namespace
>though).
>
>Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)
>
>
When you say that automagic links are cool, you are talking about one
way magic from en:wiktionary to en:wikipedia only. I think it would be
much easier to have a bot create these interproject links because
otherwise you are asking for some complicated code that can only be used
for one project and in only one direction.

If anything, it would be easier to code for interlanguage links between
the non capitalizing wiktionaries. They ARE bidirectional and they are
always correct. Then again, a bot can do this as well.

Thanks,
    GerardM

>
>On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 08:43:29 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
><gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Erik Moeller wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Anthere-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708
>>>>Erik proposed himself to write it for release 1.4.
>>>>What is this status ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I'll code it soon. The biggest open question is what syntax to use. I
>>>think I'll go for [[Sidebar:Wiktionary:Bla]] (where "Sidebar:" would have
>>>to be localizable).
>>>
>>>If I understand him correctly, Brion has argued that these links should be
>>>automagically displayed if there is an article with the same title on a
>>>sister project wiki. That would be nice, but harder to implement.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Erik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Hoi,
>>It is not a good idea to have automagic links; the reason for this is
>>that it does not take into account that there are these disambiguation
>>pages and consequently namaes that do not match, it does not take into
>>account that wiktionary has both lower and upper case characters. As to
>>the syntax, why not a short IPL for InterProject Link. It would also be
>>nice it the shorthand like w: and wikt: would be possible as well.
>>
>>One nice feature would be, if you have a link one way to have it
>>automagically also the other way. Another point is, do we allow for
>>IPL's that cross a language divide (this would ask for [[IPL:w:en:Bla]])  ??
>>
>>Thanks,
>>   GerardM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikitech-l mailing list
>>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


from_name: John Collison

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
> Well, if and when I return from my Wiki-Vacation, I may, if I feel
> like it, put in a request for sysophood again, and let the community
> decide properly.
>
Honestly, Allen, there is no need for de-opping. You made a mistake and
have confessed your sins. We're all human. I think others will agree
with me in objecting to your desysopping.

John
[[User:Ludraman]]


from_name: Stirling Newberry

body:
On Jan 4, 2005, at 3:18 PM, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

> Joseph Reagle wrote:
>> I would be interested in any feedback, including corrections of my
>> characterization of Wikipedia and any pointers to historical archives
>> that
>> shed light on both the "epistemological stance" and norms of
>> politeness. I
>> expect the former came from Larry Sanger and was present in the
>> Nupedia as
>> well, and the latter is part of Jimbo Wales's personality.
>
> Actually, NPOV comes from me.
>
> --Jimbo

Which is why you are getting a chunk of lines in my book.


from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising Drive, January 2005

body:
On 4 Jan 2005, at 05:14, Dori wrote:

> I don't think it would be a good idea to have a fundraising drive so
> close to the tsunami disaster (not likely to be successful or seen in
> a good light due to the visibility of Wikipedia articles on it)
>
> --
> [[en:User:Dori]]

<AOL>	Seconded. 	</AOL>

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: NSK

body:
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 17:55, Traroth wrote:
> Does your proposition mean that only experts will be
> authorized to contribute ? That's a major change in
> the Wikipedia spirit, and I desagree totally.

Non-experts contribute text, provided they give their full legal name and
contact details. Experts contribute text and check the non-experts'
contributions.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Evercat v. Libertas

body:
Hi,

The proper place to put the request is here :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_permissions (I use the
opportunity to remind everyone :-))

This said Allan... I'd say there is no need to do such a thing, as long
you are aware that perhaps you were too bold (I have no idea what the
incident is, I just stumbled over the request...).

But usually, when people ask to be desysoped, it is mostly out of
sadness or anger or exasperation. Not because they are bad people. And
most of the time, they also take a wikivacation, and after a while they
ask to be sysop again :-) So, I would say, just have a good break till
you feel better, avoid using sysop powers for a while and that is it.

Wikilove

Allan Crossman a ?crit:
> BJ?rn Lindqvist writes:
>
>  > stepping down sounds like a good idea.
>
> Very well. I'll put in a request for de-sysoping.


from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for Wikikids

body:
Hows about we get crackin' on the wikijuior project first and try to
make it a succes, and from it some valuable answers to some of the
concerns with wikikids may present themselves.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:19:57 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> We are dealing with two different groups here.  The POV warrior, the
> troll and the pornographer want their effort to be seen.  For some the
> thrill is in the fight.  It's quite the opposite for the pedophile.  His
> editing activity will avoid controversy. On matters of interest to
> children he will want to blend in as a cool member of the community
> providing just the kind of information that kids want. He wants to build
> confidence so that the kids will feel at ease to meet him when he's ready.
>
> Ec

...or she.

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for Wikikids


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Fundraising Drive, January 2005

body:
Angela a ?crit:
> The fundraising drive for this quarter will be held later this month,
> possibly to coincide with "Wikipedia Day" (January 21) as Daniel
> proposed last month.

In december, Mav and I discussed about it (on the mailing lists I think)
and we concluded that it would be best to wait early february for the
next fundraising drive, both for organisational reasons and because just
after Christmas, people are often left empty pockets.

The recent events also supports waiting.

I do think we have enough to wait till february, but Mav could tell us
more about this. I think he said he would be back this week.

Anthere


subject: [Foundation-l] board meeting

body:
We'll hold a board meeting in the next few days/weeks, and need your
feedback on the agenda. Please comment or add anything you feel is
important.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda

We'll probably mostly focus on the new budget, and since most of our
income goes in hardware, any help from the developers would be helpful
(thanks James for the detailed email on wikitech).

Some editors woudl really like that a privacy statement be adopted, so I
also invite you to review
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Draft_privacy_policy till you like it.

In echo of Angela previous mail, any help on the next fundraising is
welcome as well.

Thanks

Anthere


subject: [Foundation-l] board meeting


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [Wikipedia-l] patrolled edits?

body:
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:10:27 -0500, Pierre Abbat <phma at phma.hn.org> wrote:
> What's a patrolled edit? I looked at a new page on jbo: and it asked me if I
> wanted to mark the page as "patrolled". I looked in the glossary on en: and
> other places on en: and meta and didn't find an explanation.
>
> phma

We've attempted to explain this at the en Village Pump: see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28news%29#Recent_changes_flags.
There's also discussion over how to improve the feature.

--Slowking Man


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia site

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subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 21:37:30 +0100, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> 1. I think Fallujah's survivors of siege warfare and radioactive and
> chemical weapons have more pressing needs right now than logging on to
> the Internet and editing some website.

Just out of curiosity, when was Fallujah nuked and sprayed down? I
must have missed it, between eating my double-Supersized Big Mac and
filling up my 2-mile-per-gallon SUV.

> 3. Adding to that, well, what do you think -- if a foreign army lays
> siege to, and napalm-bombs someone's hometown, would it be unreasonable
> to assume that the person so affected might rather be WAY past
> contributing friendly edits to a joint encyclopedia? (Which is why I
> reckon that the US has guaranteed itself one or two sequels, al Qaeda
> branded or otherwise. But then, that's just my hunch and I could be
> wrong.)

The U.S. military destroyed the last of its napalm a few years ago, if
memory serves me right. I could be mistaken, though.

This will probably do nothing except ignite an off-topic flame war,
but I'm curious about these claims.

--Slowking Man


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


from_name: Olve Utne

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Harrassing is not OK

body:
Dear Yann, Gerard & al.,

I have noticed that some people find it amusing (or whatever it is) to
harrass (!) Mark W.   Please stop with it -- Wikipedia has bigger problems
than some of you not agreeing with Mark W.  Acceptance of escalated
personal attacks is one of them -- and it is not exactly like Mark W. has
been proven to have a monopoly on those...

Respectfully,

Olve Utne (who is starting to get a bit sick of this peck-order-oriented
list...)

At 12:17 04/01/2005 +0000, Yann Forget wrote:
>Hi Mark, [...] Please stop spreading FUD. Requests are not well received
>when they are sent by YOU, that the point.

Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>You are like an old record, stuck in the same phrases time and again.  You
>have annoyed and insulted many people and you are unappologetic  about it.

___________________

Olve Utne
http://utne.nvg.org


from_name: R E Broadley

subject: [WikiEN-l] slow network (due to level 3 communications?)

body:
I've noticed for quite some time now that the Wikipedia web page is very
very slow to load. I did a traceroute to en.wikipedia.org and it seems
to be a router, 209.247.11.201 (owned by Level 3 Communications in
Broomfield) that adds the most of the delay, rather than the web server
itself..?

I'm pinging from the UK, but I suspect that a lot of the USA (if not
everyone) probably goes via this router also.

Regards,
Ed

PS. Apologies. I suspect this might not be the correct mailing list on
which to mention this.


from_name: dan-shk

body:
Hi

I've added an mediawiki system (Hebrew) to my site in.

I found out that the word "article" at the top menu is in English
instead of the system language that I chose.

I've check the hebrew file - /languages/LanguageHe.php and its look fine
- the article word was translated there.

Some one has a clue for solving this problem (I know the php fundementals).

My wiki system place in - http://daniel.koala.co.il/wiki2

(Sorry about my english)

Thank for your time

Daniel S


subject: [Foundation-l] Languages and education

body:
Hello,

First of all, I wish a happy new year to all who may
be concerned.
This year, I spent Christmas and New Year Eve in an
unusual way, since I was in the Sahara desert (south
of Algeria) for 15 days, as an ecotourist.
I had a real great time over there, which I will share
with Wikipedia in trying to improve many articles
related to the areas  I went to, as well as with many
pictures.

However, I wished to share a couple of additional
things/thoughts with you. About languages and
education.

I spent a little while in Tamanrasset, and discussed
with some of it inhabitants, men and women. It is a
strange situation, as it cannot be said that people
are "poor", in the sense that most have the basics
which allow them to live quite happily. The city is
growing pretty fast (50 000 unhabitants), but is not
sustainable for its water, nor for its food, nor for
most of its industrial goods. Most of it is imported
from the north of Algeria. The city is essentially
living from camels, goats and sheep... and tourism in
the surroundings of course. While the city is shared
by many ethnies and different nationalities, most
people over there are muslims. They speak a mixture of
Tuareg language (tamazight or tamahaq) and some local
arab which can hardly be recognised by those of us
French who learned classical arab in France.

One thing surprised me greatly. I thought the majority
of Algerians could be said to speak French (since
Algeria was previously a french colony). Well, I
discovered over there that if all adults have notions
of french language, many of them are very very far
from fluent. I could speak to no kids under 15, even
though I was told that all of them start learning
french language at school from the age of 8 (?). So, I
went for a little check and discovered that according
to statistics, about 62% of Algerian speak decent
french (enough for communication), and this number
have been increasing in the past years.

Now, Tamanrasset is in the most southern part of
Algeria, so rather far away from France, though there
is still obviously strong French influence. People I
met talked with one another in Tamahaq, talk with
other Tamanrasset people in a southern arab, speak
with us in french, and receive education in classical
arab. Guys ! these people manage roughly 4 languages !

When France left Algeria, the whole educational system
was in french language; the algerian government tried
to switch entirely to classical arab over the years,
even though there were at that time not enough
teachers knowledgeable in classical arab, even though
most Algerians do not manage well classical arab, even
though there were no educational books in classical
arab to teach children. Over the years, the government
has tried to impose more and more classical arab, to
the dismay of all those speaking berberes languages
(such as the Touareg). From my friends in Algers, I
know that university education is still partly in
french, in particular in scientific and technical
domains. But from what I understood, the algerian
educational system is in great part a failure, as it
is taught in a language that many Algerian do not
manage well, as it results in diplomas of little value
on european or american market, and as many students
end up secondary school with such a poor knowledge in
french that they are unable to come to french
universities or even to follow well algerian
university classes. Possibly, knowing more of english
language might help but it seems currently limited.

Two things raised my attention greatly.
First, a university is currently being built in
Tamanrasset. For now, students usually go to Algers to
follow upper studies (about 1500 km away, which
evidently implies only quite wealthy people can afford
this).

Second, as we crossed villages in the mountains, we
were surrounded by kids, from 6 to 12. Only the eldest
could really communicate a bit with us. We had some
pens for them, which we distributed. But it was not
really what they were looking for. The youngest wanted
paper mostly. But all asked for books. Only books. Not
food, nor money, nor sweets, only books. And they
wanted books in french language. I told them "but you
can't read french". But this is what they wanted
nevertheless.

When I asked to my favorite guide, he told me "they
learn french at school, a little bit, but they have no
opportunity to practice. Except for a few tourists,
who could they talk french to ? At least, with books,
they can learn a bit".

I suspect the school probably only has a couple of
worn out ones. Possibly only a couple of worn out
books in arab as well.
I dig a couple of my son books to give them. Not much.
If I had guessed, it would have been easy to bring a
few more.

As I understood, analphabetism is rising over there,
especially among girls. If the kids do not speak
french, their access to university is limited. And the
main economical resource of the area is tourism, most
tourists being french speaking.

Computers in these villages is out of question. They
have electricity but I doubt a computer could survive
long in such an environment (I spent two hours in the
local gendarmerie, they have desks, paper, pens and
sand). However, most of our youngest guides had an
email adress and went on the net thanks to cybercafes
in Tamanrasset.

There might be things to do no ?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [Foundation-l] Languages and education


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Languages and education


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki

body:
On 4 Jan 2005, at 16:09, Traroth wrote:

> I'm very curious to see it. From time to time,
> somebody speaks about it, but nothing happens. I would
> like to see reactions about a testimony like "my 4
> years daughter was killed by a US marine in Fallujah".
> With a lot of readers/contributors in the United
> States, it could be really funny...
>
> Traroth

1. I think Fallujah's survivors of siege warfare and radioactive and
chemical weapons have more pressing needs right now than logging on to
the Internet and editing some website.
2. Do you think that Muslim residents of a hitherto-branded "axis of
evil"-country would have better luck than Christian-dominated US allies
in convincing the US American "Moral" Majority that "Thou shalt not
kill" really DOES mean just that? Me neither.
3. Adding to that, well, what do you think -- if a foreign army lays
siege to, and napalm-bombs someone's hometown, would it be unreasonable
to assume that the person so affected might rather be WAY past
contributing friendly edits to a joint encyclopedia? (Which is why I
reckon that the US has guaranteed itself one or two sequels, al Qaeda
branded or otherwise. But then, that's just my hunch and I could be
wrong.)
4. Leaving aside the unlikeliness of seeing a lot of Fallujan
contributors anytime soon, if you've given up on the US as such and
only expect mere sordid entertainment -- yes, a hypothetical advent of
Fallujan contributors would provide copious amounts of that. Let the
games begin, but don't forget to duck and cover!

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Forking the Wiki


from_name: Shaun MacPherson

body:
 --- Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
> References and a reference engine would be a
> tremendous help, both for
> readability, and for writing. I would like to
> suggest a project:
> wikicite which would list all available books and
> create a simple tag
> mechanism for citing them.
>
> Thus something like {{wikicite:Wealth of Nations}}
> would expand out to
> a canonical Smith, Adam etc.

Wikicite is a very good idea.  Especially so since I
believe the time will come when people will disagree
what constitutes a good reference, people disagreeing
on the reference formatting, trouuble in keeping track
of the different editions and page numbers for a
quotation, or different printing runs for books.

As well, if we are citing a public domain work there
is no reason why the cite cannot bring us to the
actual document and quotation on wikisource or
wikicommons.

> Getting journal articles would be next, and harder,
> but could be worked
> out over time. This would make entering sources and
> bibliography easy,
> standardised, and current. It would also keep the
> burden of generating
> citation lists down, and would be a generally useful
> resource
> everywhere.

Wikicite might be able to keep track of all things
published.  It would also be useful to keep track of
books and their printing date to know when things
enter the public domain to know when to put them on
Wikisource/Wikicommons.

I don't mean to steal your idea, I just agree with it
a lot and added some suggestions :).  If you are
around you can mention Wikicite at
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check)
the talk page here, I think many people would be
interested.

Bye,

ShaunMacPherson

> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca


body:
 --- NSK <nsk2 at wikinerds.org> wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 January 2005 17:55, Traroth wrote:
> > Does your proposition mean that only experts will
> be
> > authorized to contribute ? That's a major change
> in
> > the Wikipedia spirit, and I desagree totally.
>
> Non-experts contribute text, provided they give
> their full legal name and
> contact details. Experts contribute text and check
> the non-experts'
> contributions.

Sounds like an interesting idea, but why do we need
'experts' for?  Anyone can fact and reference check,
and after facts have been verified with multiple
sources they are then as 'credible' as credible can be
in my thinking.

It is time to apply the Wiki philosophy to not just
providing the content, but to verifying it with
reference checks from multiple sources.  It worked for
content, I am sure it will work for verification if
the community are given the tools (tools such as
intelligent foot/end notes, autonumbering of
citations, etc.).

ShaunMacPherson

> --
> NSK
> The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
> Owner of the Wikinerds Portal
> http://portal.wikinerds.org
> Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca


body:
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 19:43, David Gerard wrote:

> How long have you been running it

I started the Wikinerds.org website in August 2004.

> and how are the results so far?

I have received positive comments from many people. However the project is
still too new, so it is too early to talk about results.

Wikinerds is a meta-project for the management of a federation of wikis and
other projects related to sciences.

You can check these websites to see some of our content:
- Wikinerds Portal at http://portal.wikinerds.org
- NerdyPC at http://www.nerdypc.org
- JnanaBase at http://jnana.wikinerds.org

I just wanted to note that the project's progress is slowed down right now due
to a software migration from MediaWiki to TikiWiki, which will serve most
projects of Wikinerds until I finish my own wiki software in August 2005.

If you are interested in Wikinerds you can keep contact with me through email
or use our forum at http://forum.wikinerds.org

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


body:
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 20:36, Sean Barrett wrote:
> The trivial matter of whether those fully-exposed non-experts survive
> the resulting attacks by the loons, trolls, and death-threat-issuing POV
> warriors is of no concern, of course.

An environment where the full legal name and the biography of the participants
is known is hostile to trolls.

--
NSK
The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org


from_name: actionforum at comcast.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
Shall we say one abuse per month per sysop, use it strategically?

I agree that Evercat should resign, I'd feel differently if after his realization he had repented and reversed the blocking.  BTW, has ANYONE reversed the libertas block yet and explained things to her?

In my case, I think AndyL believed he had a defensible reason (I disagree), but he has also agreed he should have referred it to another sysop and will do so in the future.

                               -- Silverback

> nas ral wrote:
>
> > Your last act as an admin should be to get another admin to block you
> > for the exact same time that Libertas was erroneously blocked. Its a
> > shame, since you seem like a nice person, and this may have been an
> > unfortunate lapse.
>
> I really don't think we need to actively punish admins for being human.
> He was baited, and absent a pattern of abusive behaviour, combined with
> his clear understanding that his actions were improper and what led to
> them, Allan needs some sort of pseudo-formal scolding. He doesn't need
> to be stripped of his adminship or banned.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Proposed order for Jan 5

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

user_Jamesday wrote:
<snip>
> 6 	iServ R100 "apache" CPU:  Intel P4 540 (3.2GHz) 1MB Cache - HT -
> 800 FSB LGA775 RAM:  512MB (2 x 256MB) DDRII-533 - Interleaved
> Management:  IPMI 2.0 Controller Hot-Swap HDD :  Seagate 200GB 7200.7
> (7.2Krpm-8MB Cache-NCQ) SATA Low Profile CD-ROM:  Slimline 24X CD-ROM
>  Floppy:  1.44MB Floppy WARRANTY: Standard 3 Year - Return to Depot
> NOTES:  Fedora Core3 or recommend 	 $1221.00 	 $7326.00  Total:
> $14910.00
>
<snip>

Hello,

For switches, I got a close friend working for a french ISP that order
most of its stuff from brookers. Namely:

  http://www.digitalwarehouse.com/
  http://www.atlantixglobal.com/
  http://www.networkhardware.com/

He got direct contact with salesman through instant messenging to get
more details and usually he is able to get 20-30 reduction on price.

My friend offered to recommend us and even handle the deal.

cheers,

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
"This signature is a virus. Copy me in yours to spread it."
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: stats Webalizer

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Walter Vermeir wrote:
> I noticed that stats of Webalizer are not updated since october.
>
> http://wikimedia.org/stats/nl.wikipedia.org//
>
> Is that normal?

Yes. Not enough cpu / disk space to generate statistics. iirc the last
attempt resulted in a total block of the whole cluster. Hopefully one
server will be dedicated to handling logs in a near future and webalizer
stats will then be build again.

> Those,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/NL/Sitemap.htm
>  are still updated. So there is no real need for. It is only to know.
>
> [[gebruiker:walter]]

This is using the sql dump and looks like it can still be run on one of
the servers.

cheers,

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
"This signature is a virus. Copy me in yours to spread it."
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Old Norse

body:
Hello Vegard, Mark, etc.,

An Old Norse project sounds fine with me -- either as a Wikipedia or as a
Wiktionary. I am reasonably competent in Old Norse and can provide a bit of
help along the way -- although I cannot promise to spend a lot of time on
it, since there are so many other things I need to tend to also (including,
first and foremost, the Nynorsk Wikipedia and the English one).

Arguments against an Old Norse Wikipedia might be its proximity to
Icelandic -- to which it is so similar that the difference between
normalised Old Norse and Icelandic orthography can be summed up in a
handful mostly one-to-one rules.
Thus, Old Norse -r after consonant corresponds to Icelandic -ur; the Old
Norse O with ogonek (a C-like shape under) corresponds to Icelandic ?; Old
Norse long ? corresponds to Icelandic ?; Old Norse -k in personal pronouns
corresponds to Icelandic -g; and the Old Norse grammatical ending -t
corresponds to Icelandic -?. Otherwise, the morphology and syntax are
mostly the same (with some archaic forms in Old Norse being lost in
Icelandic), but Icelandic has undergone a relatively dramatic expansion of
its vocabulary in the recent century or so.

Regarding the name, I suggest that the language be called norr?nt (with oe
digraph) or norr?nt with acute accent over the ? (not possible to type in
Eudora...). The name gamalnorska ("Old Norwegian") would not have been used
as a self-designation in the time of Old Norse as a mother tongue. Also,
the language was used both in Norway and Iceland, as well as as a mostly
spoken language in Sweden and Denmark before the languages of these
countries started to drift apart.

As for writing system, orthography etc., there is clearly a potential for
disagreements there. My take on the matter would be that using the latin
alphabet rather than the (Runic) Futhork makes the most sense, and that
some degree of normalisation of the spelling is needed. (Should one write
b?k, bok, or boc, for instance?)

The wiki language code :non: sounds fine with me.

-Olve

At 22:54 03/01/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>From: "Vegard Aukrust" <vegara at stud.ntnu.no>
>I want to start a Wikipedia page in old norse (gamalnorska), and I suggest
>the language code "gno".

>From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
>I'm not sure the current environment is the best place for a request
>regarding Old Norse. But anyhow, I have a question: will you use the runic
>script, or the latin script?

___________________

Olve Utne
http://utne.nvg.org


from_name: Andrew Dunbar

body:
For some projects it is good to have automagic links. The English
wiktionary is one. That project doesn't support disambiguation pages.
The automagic link generator code could certainly be aware of which
capitalisation mode is in use in each interproject and merge or split
links accordingly. In the case of the English Wiktionary, we would
only want automagic for the default namespace. Articles in other
namespaces may have counterparts in interprojects with different
titles. (Main Page is a special exception in the default namespace
though).

Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 08:43:29 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> >Anthere-
> >
> >
> >>http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708
> >>Erik proposed himself to write it for release 1.4.
> >>What is this status ?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'll code it soon. The biggest open question is what syntax to use. I
> >think I'll go for [[Sidebar:Wiktionary:Bla]] (where "Sidebar:" would have
> >to be localizable).
> >
> >If I understand him correctly, Brion has argued that these links should be
> >automagically displayed if there is an article with the same title on a
> >sister project wiki. That would be nice, but harder to implement.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Erik
> >
> Hoi,
> It is not a good idea to have automagic links; the reason for this is
> that it does not take into account that there are these disambiguation
> pages and consequently namaes that do not match, it does not take into
> account that wiktionary has both lower and upper case characters. As to
> the syntax, why not a short IPL for InterProject Link. It would also be
> nice it the shorthand like w: and wikt: would be possible as well.
>
> One nice feature would be, if you have a link one way to have it
> automagically also the other way. Another point is, do we allow for
> IPL's that cross a language divide (this would ask for [[IPL:w:en:Bla]])  ??
>
> Thanks,
>    GerardM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
http://linguaphile.sf.net


from_name: J.F. de Wolff

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Stan's evolutionary concept

body:
Stan has voiced a very important theoretical point that defines the whole
mechanism of Wikipedia. It also resolves (or rationalises) some of Larry's
concerns.
Articles develop Darwinistically. They emerge from primordial soup
(substubs, anon newbie edits) and evolve as more people add material.
 From this point, there are two types of articles: those that attract
interest and those that do not. This is easily compared to evolutionary
selection pressures. Lifeforms that develop under extreme circumstances are
simply more adapted than those that have had free reign without being
predated upon.
Articles under scrutiny get better (vandalism to [[Jew]] or [[Holocaust]]
is reverted quicker than vandalism to [[Metabolic syndrome]] due to
Watchlist and "vested contributor" exposure). Articles out of the limelight
perform much worse - inaccuracies are not corrected, vandalism is removed
by other anons (yep, this happens), etc. These are the ones that are poorly
sourced, inundated with irrelevant external links, sometimes edit warred
over a bit, but generally don't reach anything close to featured article
quality.
Stan is completely right that effective contributors eventually carry the
day. There is so much to write about, to improve, to edit. He ignores the
big POV dinosaurs, who do eventually get blocked for personal attacks or
sockpuppetry, but that just proves the point.

I don't completely disagree with Larry on the accuracy issues for these
"underperforming articles". They are just not getting the attention they
deserve. There are a few solutions. Most involve automatic Vfd, but it can
be replaced with "cleanup" by inclusionists:
* Vfd an article that has not been edited for 6 months (or 12, or 18)
* Vfd an article that is on nobody's watchlist
* Vfd orphaned articles
* Vfd an article that has STILL not been put in a category (other than "stub")

The above is the pruning effort of unviable lifeforms on Wikipedia. Some
articles should be allowed to die gracefully. Others may be revived by
vigorous spring cleanup. Anyway, this amorphous mass of poorly edited
articles should get more attention that it is getting right now.

Jfdwolff


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Dupes in the Database

body:
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Mathias Schindler wrote:
> Mathias Schindler wrote:
>
>>I guess this is not a wanted feature.
>
> It seems that I was totally wrong. I just ignored cur_namespaces. Sorry
> for any confusion I might have caused.
>
> Mathias

Thanks for the checks anyway  8)

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
"This signature is a virus. Copy me in yours to spread it."
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: French squids

body:
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Brion Vibber wrote:
> Somebody needs to commit to finally setting up and testing these
> things. Any volunteers? What exactly remains to be done with them?

Hello Brion,

I talked about it with Med and Submarine on #fr.wikipedia. The situation
actually:

The three squids (ennael, chloe, bleuen) are accessible from outside and
use debian.

There is some configuration example on wikidev squid page to set up
squids. We should probably also create a new subdomain "paris" in
"wikimedia.org." zone and get some entries there.

 paris.wikimedia.org.

The proposal is on:
  http://wp.wikidev.net/DNS_scratchpad#paris_subdomain

That will be good enough for some testing. Hopefully squids can be
configured to understand that http://fr.paris.wikipedia.org/ is indeed
http://fr.wikipedia.org/

We can also do:
  fr.paris.mirrors.wikipedia.org

cheers,

- --
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org
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from_name: jneden at bellsouth.net

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Harassing is not OK

body:
All Wikipedians,

> Olve Utne (who is starting to get a bit sick of this peck-order-oriented
list...)

I have to agree with Olve. And that is largely why I have not felt like paying attention to wikipedia-l lately.  Sorry I haven't been around to voice my opinions against this idiocy. I do not have clearly defined convictions as to the interactions of both parties here (mainly Mark and YOU, harassment squad), but I am certain that this peck-order rudeness is not what Wikipedia needs to be. In fact, I dare say that this stuff needs to end here and now. If I were completely new to Wikipedia and signed up for wikipedia-l, I'd unsubscribe in a heartbeat. Leave Mark W. alone and get on with your lives.

Ooh, and I abbreviated here. Sorry. (Referencing a rude, old e-mail from a certain party which I felt no urge to respond.)

Have a great day. Takk, Ovne. Du forst?r Wikipedia-l vel, og jeg er glad i deg for det. N? skal jeg snakke norsk! (GOD it's been too long. Almost two years since I used Norwegian seriously. At least I can tell you something in Norwegian that people will not undertand literally in English. High five for Nordmenn -- we seem to get along well!)

Mark, you take care. Sorry I haven't been around. You have my support.

 ~ Jeremy

Agidoda tsalag, kenv; hla yagiliya wigiquediya. (Funny how my identity is meddled with languages, isn't it?)

----------

Dear Yann, Gerard & al.,

I have noticed that some people find it amusing (or whatever it is) to
harrass (!) Mark W. Please stop with it -- Wikipedia has bigger problems
than some of you not agreeing with Mark W. Acceptance of escalated
personal attacks is one of them -- and it is not exactly like Mark W. has
been proven to have a monopoly on those...

Respectfully,

Olve Utne (who is starting to get a bit sick of this peck-order-oriented
list...)

At 12:17 04/01/2005 +0000, Yann Forget wrote:
>Hi Mark, [...] Please stop spreading FUD. Requests are not well received
>when they are sent by YOU, that the point.

Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>You are like an old record, stuck in the same phrases time and again. You
>have annoyed and insulted many people and you are unappologetic about it.


from_name: Josh Gerdes

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project
 Has Been Around For A While

body:
Shaun McPherson wrote:
>  --- Stirling Newberry
> <stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
>>References and a reference engine would be a
>>tremendous help, both for
>>readability, and for writing. I would like to
>>suggest a project:
>>wikicite which would list all available books and
>>create a simple tag
>>mechanism for citing them.
>>
>>Thus something like {{wikicite:Wealth of Nations}}
>>would expand out to
>>a canonical Smith, Adam etc.
>
>
> Wikicite is a very good idea.  Especially so since I
> believe the time will come when people will disagree
> what constitutes a good reference, people disagreeing
> on the reference formatting, trouuble in keeping track
> of the different editions and page numbers for a
> quotation, or different printing runs for books.
>
> As well, if we are citing a public domain work there
> is no reason why the cite cannot bring us to the
> actual document and quotation on wikisource or
> wikicommons.
>
>
>>Getting journal articles would be next, and harder,
>>but could be worked
>>out over time. This would make entering sources and
>>bibliography easy,
>>standardised, and current. It would also keep the
>>burden of generating
>>citation lists down, and would be a generally useful
>>resource
>>everywhere.
>
>
> Wikicite might be able to keep track of all things
> published.  It would also be useful to keep track of
> books and their printing date to know when things
> enter the public domain to know when to put them on
> Wikisource/Wikicommons.
>
> I don't mean to steal your idea, I just agree with it
> a lot and added some suggestions :).  If you are
> around you can mention Wikicite at
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check)
> the talk page here, I think many people would be
> interested.
>
> Bye,
>
> ShaunMacPherson
>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

I completely agree. Wikicite is an excellent idea.
--
Josh Gerdes
(en:User:JoshG)


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Fred Bauder (fredbaud at ctelco.net) [050104 23:32]:

> No way, an anonymous editor can cite references as well as anyone else and
> it is not his bona fides that makes the reference good but the reputation
> and authoritativeness of the reference. Anyone who has attended institutions
> of higher learning is fully aware that formal qualifications mean next to
> nothing and has probably learned that those who cite their degrees and
> position as authority in the course of an argument rather than focusing on
> evidence which might support their position do so because they are unable to
> prevail using the evidence available to them.

I would agree on the point that references are the thing. The Internet is a
land of unreliable crap probably good to the pub-quiz level of reliability.
Wikipedia makes it that far on average. But supply good references, and
suddenly an article's standing is a lot higher at a glance. Because
references are checkable.

(The next problem becomes garbage references - like all the "Israeli News
Network" items on [[Current events]] - and reference wars. But I think it'd
be less worse having editors vociferously disparaging each other's
references than each other's selves or ancestry. Perhaps I'm just overly
hopeful there.)

- d.


from_name: DIG

subject: [Wikitech-l] RSS feed for user's watch list (feature suggestion)

body:
Hello,

It is a feature suggestion.  I also submitted it through Mediazilla (#1265).

It would be useful for the wiki contributor to have a RSS feed, containing fresh information about articles from his/her watch list.

The relevant URL for this kind of feed should be composed of two parts:

  (1) first part is user specific and may looks like this:
        http://XX.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:USERNAME

  (2) second part is a randomly generated string and is here to protect
      user's privacy, which does not change (it can, however, be changed
      at the user's request).

  Example:

    http://XX.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:USERNAME?rss_id=febcbda8a5c3

The whole link to RSS feed will only be available to the user on the user's page _after_ authentication and may be placed under "Preferences" or inside "Navigation block" (latter is better, I think).

This way the user will receive fresh information about his/her watched articles through the RSS feed, while keeping his/her watch list private.

Best regards,

P.S. Please, CC me, I am not on the list (yet).

--
DIG (Dmitri I GOULIAEV)
1024D/63A6C649: 26A0 E4D5 AB3F C2D4 0112  66CD 4343 C0AF 63A6 C649


from_name: Ronald Chmara

body:
On Jan 5, 2005, at 2:28 AM, Andre Engels wrote:
> This seems to be exactly the problem Larry Sanger talks about - We
> don't care whether somebody is a renowned expert on a subject or has
> just read a few lines related to a subject in the past. If they can
> write it down, we consider them equal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_%28bureaucratic%29

Certainly, a lack of expertise is a problem in managing fine details,
but it does not require an expert in aviation to add to a wikipedia
article that 'Air Force One is a plane'. The  problem I think, is not
the insertion of facts by non-experts, but the use of (or omission of)
facts by POV folks to drive a given agenda.

> A second fallacy I see in this message is that it equates factual
> correctness with credibility. There's more than just factual
> correctness to make a good article, there is also balance. Getting
> experts is not what helps here (although it helps a bit, because they
> are supposed to know about the subject, and thus notice missing
> portions), but we should recognize the problem as being one.

My older brother despises some wikipedia sections that are written in
his field (cultural anthropology, with specific emphasis on the paiute
people), as he is an expert in that specific area, and finds the
articles "shallow", "without depth and nuance", and "lacking in a
deeper explanation". They are written by "non-experts", and thus make
"factual and comprehension errors".

The articles are also written for *use* by non-experts.... So, I asked
my brother how many pages it would take to correct the errors, and he
pointed me towards his latest body of work, over 500 pages, and that's
just the historical *sites* of the paiute.

So, what is wikipedia? Is it *meant* to be the equivalent of an
encyclopedia, with terse explanations? Is it meant to be a vast
repository of all that is known, without omissions of fact, or
omissions of a given POV?

-Bop


body:
NSK (nsk2 at wikinerds.org) [050105 04:05]:
> On Tuesday 04 January 2005 17:55, Traroth wrote:

> > Does your proposition mean that only experts will be
> > authorized to contribute ? That's a major change in
> > the Wikipedia spirit, and I desagree totally.

> Non-experts contribute text, provided they give their full legal name and
> contact details. Experts contribute text and check the non-experts'
> contributions.

Sounds like an interesting experiment. How long have you been running it
and how are the results so far?

- d.


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: special characters

body:
On Jan 5, 2005, at 3:03 AM, Giuseppe DAngelo wrote:
> I hate to interrupt important matters of state with a trivial concern,
> but while I was in the Catalan wikipedia today I went to use the
> special characters in the copyright area of the edit page and only
> managed to invoke some gobbledygook.  I ignored it at the time, but
> then found that it was doing the same thing in the Sicilian wikipedia.
>  Has anyone else come across this?  Has anyone got any tips?  Have
> both the Catalan and the Sicilians gone awry somewhere along the way
> or is this universal?  Appreciative of any helpful thoughts.
> Salutamu.

Can you be more specific?

* What browser, operating system, versions are you using?
* What exactly does this "gobbledygook" look like?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Nicholas Knight

subject: [WikiEN-l] Evercat v. Libertas

body:
actionforum at comcast.net wrote:
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
>> actionforum at comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>> Shall we say one abuse per month per sysop, use it strategically?
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps you could show me where that came from in "absent a pattern
>> of abuse" ?
>
>
> That comes from making excuses such as "being human" and he was
> "baited", which look quite reusable, since sysops will still be human
> in the future and may be "baited" again.  However, it wasn't just
> your statement, but the general sense of  "deference" to other
> sysops.  The sysop community should act as checks and balances upon

I am not now, nor have I ever been, an admin. I have never been
nominated for, nor have I ever sought, adminship.


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: stats Webalizer

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Yes. Not enough cpu / disk space to generate statistics. iirc the last
> attempt resulted in a total block of the whole cluster. Hopefully one
> server will be dedicated to handling logs in a near future and webalizer
> stats will then be build again.

I strongly support the idea of a machine for handling logs,
statistics, and research into those things.  I think we could learn a
lot about how the community really functions by studying logs, and the
traffic stats are important for us to understand and project our
growth patterns.

My question to wikitech-l: what sort of machine should we use for
this?  I am thinking that a fully loaded dual Opteron is overkill, but
a typical apache is too small?

Probably we'd want to have a lot of disk space, possibly RAID 5 as the
best balance between storage space, redundancy, and speed.  (We don't
want to lose a huge chunk of data to a bad hard drive, but on the
other hand we don't need absolute speed either.)

Probably we'd want a decent CPU, but it doesn't have to be top-notch,
since these are batch jobs and the machine should not be doing
anything else anyway.

Your thoughts?

--Jimbo


body:
Edward Peschko wrote:
> Right.. I understand the distinction between the software's license
> and the content's license - but what I was wondering is does
> the wikimedia *foundation* have a policy against accepting a
> sister project's content with a different license than the Gnu FDL?

I'm not sure what you mean here by "sister project".  That term is
something that we reserve for all of our internal projects.  There is
no process whereby an outside project can become formally recognized
by us in anyway, and I'm not particularly keen on doing so, just
because of the time and energy that would be required for a process of
scrutiny.

So far, all of our projects have been GNU FDL.  Wikinews is currently
using public domain, because there is an ongoing discussion and
learning process about what sorts of things we might need to do in
that case.

There are projects which are friends, but it is informal.  Wikitravel
for example, is not a wikimedia project, but we are friends with Evan.

--Jimbo

--
"La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


body:
NSK, this list is not for solicitation of business.

--Jimbo

NSK wrote:

> On Wednesday 05 January 2005 01:32, Edward Peschko wrote:
> > I sincerely believe that the FreeBSD is a better fit for my wiki
> > than the GnuFDL - especially because it can be sublicensed - but hesitate
> > to do so if it would jeapordize having the wiki accepted as a sister
> > project..
>
> If your project is unique/unusual and is related to sciences and I like it, I
> may be able to accept it as a project of my site, the Wikinerds Community <
> http://portal.wikinerds.org >, which means that I will offer free hosting and
> I will have control over the project's policies (practically this means
> enforcing http://www.wikinerds.org/legal and having a link to Wikinerds.org
> homepage and forum). If you are interested, send a detailed description of
> the project and a link to a webpage where I can see your work, together with
> the text of the license you want to use and a short introduction of yourself
> including your full name and a link to your personal homepage at
> info at wikinerds.org
>
> --
> NSK
> The Wikinerds Community Federation of Science Wikis
> Owner of the Wikinerds Portal http://portal.wikinerds.org
> Owner of the NerdyPC IT Wiki http://www.nerdypc.org
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
"La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


body:
J.F. de Wolff wrote:
> Articles develop Darwinistically. They emerge from primordial soup
> (substubs, anon newbie edits) and evolve as more people add material.

The essence of my talk in Berlin was to argue against this view of how
wikipedia operates.  Obviously, there is something to it if we
streeeeeeetch the "Darwinistic" metaphor to the breaking point.  But
in the main, I think this analogy is one which misleads us into
incorrect conclusions.

This is not to say that any of your particularly conclusions is wrong.
I am just saying that I think that the "Darwinistic" model is more of
a hindrance than a help in understanding how to improve things.

--Jimbo

--
"La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org