from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] GEMET and Wikipedia

body:
Gemet is the "GEneral Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus". This
thesaurus is maintained by the European Environment Agency. It contains
a 5200 + glossary with translations of the words to 20+ languages and
descriptions in a few. The EEA wants to have this information in a wiki
format, the data is open content.

Mr Stefan Jensen, the project manager did sent me a mail as I am
preparing to upload a botanical glossary into wiktionary (I said so on
the wiktionary list). As the GEMET data is already on-line on the
internet, and much better structured than the data that I have, I would
first break my teeth on this one and then progress to my own glossary.

However, I received a mail which shows how much he would appreciate
cooperation; all kinds of people who have expertise in area's like
Semantic Web, Ontologies, Thesaury, Topic Maps, XML, RDF, OASIS ... have
had my mail forwarded. I have created an article on Meta [[GEneral
Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus]]. I copied the mail to the talk page.

My plans are simple I want to upload this stuff into nl:Wiktionary. I
also plan to tag them with a [[Categorie:GEMET]]. When I have been
succesfull, I will also be able to upload it to other wiktionaries. When
somebody beats me to it, I will only be pleased.

As I have seen many a time on Wikitech stuff about XML etc, it might be
a good idea to synchronise what GEMET does and what we do. So please
discuss this preferably on Meta, or on the lists. I have no good idea
about how difficult this may prove to be.. Again, information on META.

Thanks,
   GerardM


list: wiktionary-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia


list: wikien-l

from_name: VV

subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
That is not relevant.  The quickpolls system of temp-banning users who
did this no longer exists, and to my knowledge no substitute system for
doing so is in play.  The ArbCom has issued revert paroles for
individual users such as Wik and Cantus, which were exceptional cases
after long deliberation.

 --- On Wed 09/01, Fred Bauder < fredbaud at ctelco.net > wrote:
From: Fred Bauder [mailto: fredbaud at ctelco.net]
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:11:22 -0600
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

You seem to have reverted Henry Kissenger 4 times.

Fred

_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com


from_name: Timwi

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Voting begins on [[Wikipedia:Administrator
	Accountability Policy]]

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

> You do know that within my email client, I can't click on the link
> you gave below.

"en.wikipedia.org/wiki/" really isn't that hard to type.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Header numbers

body:
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, [ISO-8859-1] ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

>As far as i know it is, and its an option in preferences.

Ah, I see it now in the prefs. Since I didn't change them in at least six
months, and see this behaviour once every few days, there's some error
that selects the wrong behaviour.

Alfio


from_name: Kurt Jansson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Header numbers

body:
Thomas R. Koll schrieb:

> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 06:03:22PM +0200, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
>
>>As far as i know it is, and its an option in preferences.
>>
>>On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:08:01 +0200 (MEST), Alfio Puglisi
>><puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>every now and then I see rendered ==headers== with numbers. That is, the
>>>same number scheme applied to the TOC:
>
> You didn't deliver a wiki-example, but it would most likly look like following.
> The parser is not yet smart enough to correct this. So, correct your
> wiki-syntax please.

I can confirm that this has nothing to do with wrong wiki syntax or the settings
in the preferences. It just happens from time to time. (Maybe a squid delivers a
page that has been built for a user who has turnd the numbering on?)

Kurt


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia

body:
Hi, I'd like to answer and at the same time to forward this message to
several people involved with "glossary creation and maintenance" as well
as interested user groups.

As some of you already know I'll have a similar task with uploading
"colours" in as many languages as possible to the Italian wiktionary
(list is still under completion) - at the same time I am trying to
create other thematic lists to be translated by colleagues and then
uploaded to wiktionary and used in the wsi-glossary project as well as
the Embedded DICTionary PROJect.

Now I know the GEMET as a very valuable source for translators (I myself
use it quite often) - so its release in the OpenContent would be a
wonderful achievement and not only for Wiktionary. So I would kindly
invite the people of other lists and direct contacts to join this
project and combine forces.

The meta page Gerard is talking about can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GEneral_Multilingual_Environmental_Thesaurus

If someone of you needs further explanation on how to add comments to
the link mentioned above and let us know what he/she can do, please just
ask. Maintain such a huge glossary in so many languages is a lot of work
and every helping hand (don't forget that there are many simple jobs as
well) is needed.

I know, not many of us are convinced about OpenSource and OpenContent,
but most of us use it every day sometimes without knowing about how much
work is behind.

So again: I invite you to join the project and to  make other people
aware of it - maybe writing and forwarding this message in other
languages as well.

And to Gerard: instead of breaking your teeth, could you please tell us
how we can help you? ;-)

Have a great evening!

Ciao, Sabine

*****

Sabine Cretella
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
www.wordsandmore.it
Meetingplace for translators
www.wesolveitnet.com

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Gemet is the "GEneral Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus". This
> thesaurus is maintained by the European Environment Agency. It
> contains a 5200 + glossary with translations of the words to 20+
> languages and descriptions in a few. The EEA wants to have this
> information in a wiki format, the data is open content.
>
> Mr Stefan Jensen, the project manager did sent me a mail as I am
> preparing to upload a botanical glossary into wiktionary (I said so on
> the wiktionary list). As the GEMET data is already on-line on the
> internet, and much better structured than the data that I have, I
> would first break my teeth on this one and then progress to my own
> glossary.
>
> However, I received a mail which shows how much he would appreciate
> cooperation; all kinds of people who have expertise in area's like
> Semantic Web, Ontologies, Thesaury, Topic Maps, XML, RDF, OASIS ...
> have had my mail forwarded. I have created an article on Meta
> [[GEneral Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus]]. I copied the mail to
> the talk page.
>
> My plans are simple I want to upload this stuff into nl:Wiktionary. I
> also plan to tag them with a [[Categorie:GEMET]]. When I have been
> succesfull, I will also be able to upload it to other wiktionaries.
> When somebody beats me to it, I will only be pleased.
>
> As I have seen many a time on Wikitech stuff about XML etc, it might
> be a good idea to synchronise what GEMET does and what we do. So
> please discuss this preferably on Meta, or on the lists. I have no
> good idea about how difficult this may prove to be.. Again,
> information on META.
>
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>


subject: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: GEMET and Wikipedia

body:
Gerard Meijssen a ?crit:
> Gemet is the "GEneral Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus". This
> thesaurus is maintained by the European Environment Agency. It contains
> a 5200 + glossary with translations of the words to 20+ languages and
> descriptions in a few. The EEA wants to have this information in a wiki
> format, the data is open content.
>
> Mr Stefan Jensen, the project manager did sent me a mail as I am
> preparing to upload a botanical glossary into wiktionary (I said so on
> the wiktionary list). As the GEMET data is already on-line on the
> internet, and much better structured than the data that I have, I would
> first break my teeth on this one and then progress to my own glossary.
>
> However, I received a mail which shows how much he would appreciate
> cooperation; all kinds of people who have expertise in area's like
> Semantic Web, Ontologies, Thesaury, Topic Maps, XML, RDF, OASIS ... have
> had my mail forwarded. I have created an article on Meta [[GEneral
> Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus]]. I copied the mail to the talk page.
>
> My plans are simple I want to upload this stuff into nl:Wiktionary. I
> also plan to tag them with a [[Categorie:GEMET]]. When I have been
> succesfull, I will also be able to upload it to other wiktionaries. When
> somebody beats me to it, I will only be pleased.
>
> As I have seen many a time on Wikitech stuff about XML etc, it might be
> a good idea to synchronise what GEMET does and what we do. So please
> discuss this preferably on Meta, or on the lists. I have no good idea
> about how difficult this may prove to be.. Again, information on META.
>
> Thanks,
>   GerardM

G?rard, I am very interested in this project, which might be a
complement to another one planned on fr. I quickly put a word on the
topic on meta, and am ready to participate with you on this (ehhh, as
soon as I have time... ). ant


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] What is a category?

body:
On 09/01/04 06:11, Chris Wood wrote:

> ==Conclusion==
> The benefits of hierarchical categorization
> #decreased redundancy
> #easier navigation (for a minority who have the "right" worldview)
> are outweighed by its costs
> #the community will never be in agreement over the system
> #harder navigation (for the majority who don't find articles where they
> expect them to be)
> #decreased accuracy (the real world is not in a big hierarchy, it merely has
> sets of metadata applied to it by different people)

So what would you suggest? We could stop categories from being able to
show up in other categories - that would neatly abolish the hierarchy.
OTOH, many articles would end up with a ridiculous number of cats at
the top (currently kept in check by the rough rule that if it's in a
subcat, you don't put it in the cat as well).

- d.


from_name: Cavs4 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Test

body: This is a test.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] I need some help with setting my options on the mailing
	list.

body: Hi, this is Neutrality. Can anyone help me put "Neutrality" in the place where it's should be, instead of "Cavs4 at aol.com"? I'm not very technically proficient with mailing lists.


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: What is a category?

body:
> The solution I've occasionally suggested is to set up some sort of system
> whereby the meaning of categorization could be encoded right into the
> category link and understood by the software. That would allow all the
> different meanings of categorization to coexist. So for example the
article
> [[Io (moon)]] could be [[Category:is-a:moons]] and
> [[Category:related-to:Earth]]. Or Category:Writers could be
> [[Category:is-a:people]]  and [[Category:related-to:writing]].

The categories already do co-exist, and there's a simple way to determine
which type a category is.  If the category title is plural, (people, moons,
planets), then the articles or subcategories form an is-a relationship.  If
the category title is singular, (writing, Earth, Environment, History), then
the articles or subcategories form a related-to relationship.

All that said, there definitely needs to be more support in the software for
is-a relationships.  For instance, there should be a way to get a list of
articles which fit into the category or any of its subcategories.  This
would be a good step toward replacing lists (though there are still other
features which need to be addressed).

Anthony


subject: [Wikitech-l] Tool to list images by license

body:
Hello,
the image copyright problem is still largely unresolved. On the English
wikipedia there are about 90.000 images, and a smaller but growing number
of images in the other wikipedias.

I saw on [[:en:Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags]] that some users have
started categorizing images using templates like {{PD}}, {{GFDL}} and so
on placed in the image description pages. I think this is very useful for
semi-automatic sorting of the various images for different purposes (and
outright deletion of the illegal ones).

Since we are about to do the same on the Italian wiki, I wrote a small
Perl script to read a database dump and write out several image lists,
one for each template, listing which images contain that particular
template, and an "unassigned" list for image without any template. Each
list is in wiki format, ready to be copied-and-pasted into a wikipedia
page if needed. We plan to use the tool on it: to generate lists of images
still to be categorized.

Of course all this can be done with a few clever SQL queries, but not all
of us have access to the DB or mysql installed.

In case anyone wants to use it the URL is
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/wiki/tools/images.pl.gz

The number of lines in each generated file is the number of images with
that particular template. For example this is the situation for the Aug 28
english dump, showing that a bit less of 25% of the images have a
proper template:

$ wc -l *

     73 CopyrightedFreeUse
    229 CopyrightedFreeUseProvided
     13 CrownCopyright
  10373 GFDL
     56 GPL
      2 LGPL
   5864 PD
      1 PD_USGov
    104 PermissionAndFairUse
     33 Sovietpd
     66 copyrighted
   3503 fairuse
      1 freefairusein
    237 images.pl
    253 noncommercial
    137 noncommercialProvided
  64568 unassigned
    131 unknown
   1984 unverified
     18 verifieduse
  87646 total

Processing the dump takes a while, especially if it must be decompressed
on the way.

Alfio


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] several wikis, same server, different data,
	same MediaWiki:namespace

body:
Dear friends,

I run several wikis sharing the same common modules

/home/www/wiki1
--Index.php
--LocalSettings1.php
/home/www/wiki1/images
/home/www/wiki1//includes --> is symbolic link to
/home/www/wikishare/includes

/home/www/wiki2
--Index.php
--LocalSettings.php
/home/www/wiki2/images
/home/www/wiki2//includes --> is symbolic link to
/home/www/wikishare/includes

/home/www/wiki3
--Index.php
/home/www/wiki3/images
/home/www/wiki3//includes --> is symbolic link to
/home/www/wikishare/includes

Basically, all wikis
- have indepent start files index.php and LocalSettings.php
- have indepent upload areas /images
- but share the same common modules (includes, stylesheets,
stylesheets/images) in /home/www/wikishare subdirectories

My question:
How can I achieve, that they all share the same MediaWiki:namespace so
that changes in one of Wiki's are reflected in the others without
manually copying pages between the wikis ?

I would like to open a page for these answers (re. multi-wiki services)
on meta.wikipedia.org

Tom


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Community Input for WikiProject - Fact and Reference
	Check

body:
Shaun MacPherson wrote:

> First time post, glad to be here.  I would like to
> announce a new Fact and Reference WikiProject (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check
> ) and am writing this email to get community input.

My input would be "wait for the validation feature to go live".


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: What is a category?

references:
<ch3p7g$239$1@sea.gmane.org> <413629E4.90601@thingy.apana.org.au>
	<ch5gjq$i8a$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Chris Wood wrote:
>>So what would you suggest? We could stop categories from being able to
>>show up in other categories - that would neatly abolish the hierarchy.
>>OTOH, many articles would end up with a ridiculous number of cats at
>>the top (currently kept in check by the rough rule that if it's in a
>>subcat, you don't put it in the cat as well).
>
> No, what I meant is allow any arbitrary categorization scheme - sets can,
> after all, be inside other sets (or more than one set). A "related to"
> scheme rather than "is a". See "Continued" below

So henceforth, writers are related to people?


subject: [Wikitech-l] Cannot delete image

body:
Something got wrong during an image upload, and now this image:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Moskwaherb.jpg

Cannot be delete with the usual interface. It says that it cannot delete
this file:

/usr/local/apache/htdocs/wikipedia.org/upload/it/archive/e/ec/20040901203504!Moskwaherb.jpg

and stops. I tried to overwrite the image and delete it again (a trick
that worked on another image), but this time it didn't work.

Can any developer remove this file and page, and anyone has an idea of
what's wrong?

Alfio


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: phase3/includes Article.php,1.154.2.14,1.154.2.15

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Modified Files:
>       Tag: REL1_3
> 	Article.php
> Log Message:
> Reverting last patch which causes "Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object" on old page views. Please test patches prior to check-in.

Sorry, Brion. Yes, I know I should test it, but running REL1_3 would
require me to create a whole new DB and everything.

The error was just that I forgot a "global $wgUser;". 'Tis all ...

Timwi


from_name: Kate

subject: [WikiEN-l] VeryVerily's block (was: (no subject))

body:
On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 23:11, Fred Bauder wrote:
> You seem to have reverted Henry Kissenger 4 times.

Is this an accepted policy?  Was VV given suitable warning before the
block?

Kate.


subject:
[Wikitech-l]
	Re: phase3/includes Article.php, 1.154.2.14, 1.154.2.15

references:
<E1C2dDf-0004Mk-Tr@sc8-pr-cvs1.sourceforge.net>	<ch5hkf$kv7$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<41364D28.7070508@pobox.com>

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> If you're
> not willing to put that time in, please don't commit to the stable branch.
> Sorry for the shouting.

It's fine, I understand completely.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VeryVerily's block

body:
Kate wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 23:11, Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>>You seem to have reverted Henry Kissenger 4 times.
>
> Is this an accepted policy?

Yes, [[WP:3RR]].

> Was VV given suitable warning before the block?

All I can see on VeryVerily's talk page is a rude remark from ?var, and
it's only 3 minutes older than the block.

Timwi


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Christopher Larberg

body:
However, I believe this is an English Wikipedia policy, is it not?

-Slowking Man
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Steven Melenchuk<mailto:crazyr2 at shaw.ca>
  To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org<mailto:wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org> ; wikien-l at wikipedia.org<mailto:wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
  Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 5:38 PM
  Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Voting begins on [[Wikipedia:AdministratorAccountability Policy]]

  Voting has begun on this policy and will carry on until the 8th. Please
  read the policy cast your votes.

  ~Grunt (Steven Melenchuk)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VeryVerily's block

references:
<BD5BA52A.68DF%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<1094077823.20227.46.camel@retribution.intern.lythe.org.uk>
	<ch5ivg$mcc$4@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 23:36, Timwi wrote:
> Kate wrote:
> > On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 23:11, Fred Bauder wrote:
> >
> >>You seem to have reverted Henry Kissenger 4 times.
> >
> > Is this an accepted policy?
>
> Yes, [[WP:3RR]].

"In the case of edit wars on important pages, users are sometimes
blocked."

Is this an important page that required a block?  Is it appropriate to
block under that "policy" with (apparently) no warning?

I cannot see it that way myself.

> > Was VV given suitable warning before the block?
>
> All I can see on VeryVerily's talk page is a rude remark from ?var, and
> it's only 3 minutes older than the block.

Yes, I saw that - I assumed it was set after the block as there was no
suggestion that VV would be blocked if hir behaviour continued.

Kate.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: VeryVerily's block

body:
Kate wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 23:36, Timwi wrote:
>
>>Yes, [[WP:3RR]].
>
>
> "In the case of edit wars on important pages, users are sometimes
> blocked."
>
> Is this an important page that required a block?  Is it appropriate to
> block under that "policy" with (apparently) no warning?
>
> I cannot see it that way myself.
>

There was also a degree of provocation from VV's edit war partner,
node_ue, who commented "rv vandal" in his summary. The dispute was
clearly a content dispute as the talk page proves, to label it vandalism
was tantamount to incitement.

I would've protected rather than blocked.

Pete/Pcb21


body:
Matt Brown wrote:

> It can't hurt to go out searching for more sources and references for
> articles in the meanwhile, though, can it?

Certainly not, but I'm just thinking that when the validation feature is
live, you guys can better judge how well suited it is for the job, what
improvements might be necessary, etc. I said that to prevent new feature
requests from proliferating whose purpose would overlap with that of the
validation feature.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"

body:
Eric B. Rakim a ?crit:
>> I wasn't comparing. My interest is in Wikipedia. In any case, such
>> comparisons do not make things inevitable and therefore unworthy of
>> thought.
>>
>> The very idea of Wikipedia, it seems to me, is to avoid the dominance
>> of any one group or person. That it does such a good job of this is
>> actually all the more reason to keep in mind that it is not perfect and
>> why.
>
>
> People where saying the exact same thing a decade ago when the world
> wide web was all the rage. That the "internet" would revolutionize human
> society, that direct democracy would become usable and that all forms of
> oppression and mass media control would magically disappear.. halleluja!
>
> Well, it didn't and today the web is dominated by a few American giants
> like Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and some others. Yes you can find
> alternative information on the net just like there was a lot of
> alternative papers that noone read before the internet too. But the
> overexposure of the mainstream (Beckhams sex life) makes it so noone but
> the few that actively look for alternative stuff will ever find it.

I first connected in 1994. Frankly, it did revolutionize my life from
that year... thanks to a little client named talk... But a decade ago,
Internet was just budding. We could see the dream but it was far away.

I got bored when commercial societies took it over.

I think it is on the verge of flowering *now*. Only 10 years is not so
long. Consider how long television (which certainly changed people life
entirely) took to really enter in most homes. Well, Internet was quite
quick. Of course, it does not exist everywhere yet... and possibly never
will. Just as TV is not in any home, but who would dare doubt its impact ?
You look at projects such as wikipedia, you look at blogs, you look at
rss feeds, classification, chat and such, and you may see the flower
opening. It is just happening :-)

> Then if Wikipedia really is different, then why does those list report
> many more Israelis killed than Palestinians when the real situation is
> the complete opposite?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


from_name: Jakob Voss

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: New MediaWiki documentation effort

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

> A combined watchlist is a project of its own.

If would make collaboration on meta-stuff much more easier.

> What is Wikipedia documentation and what is MediaWiki documentation? To
> me, Wikipedia "documentation" is mostly policies, community pages and the
> like. These really belong uniformly in the Wikipedia: namespace and not on
> Meta.

For instance there should be an article on "Links" on Wikipedia
describung a) how to make links and b) when to use and not to use which
kind of Links. You cannot seperate it entirely. At least two pages
should point to each other - this link is missing at the current
documentation at meta.

> How do we get people involved in working on the Meta documentation? E.g.
> on Wikipedia:
> 1) Remove all MediaWiki documentation from the Wikipedia: namespace
> 2) Redirect and link to local Help: pages where needed.

Needed in every almost case (but better not with redirects)

> 3) Add a [[Template:Obsolete]] to all local Help: pages:
>
> "The documentation is currently being consolidated on
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myhelpnamespace:Contents - please do not
> edit these pages anymore and edit directly on meta instead."

This Template should contain an "edit this page at meta"-link.

> 4) Protect all Help: pages.

Wikipedia:Links => Help:Links => Meta:Help:Links

At least one link to much.

> So, essentially, by locking people out from doing it locally ;-). It will
> be a bit ugly in the transition phase but it's certainly workable.

Thats the only way to do it. But Meta:Help-Pages should automatically be
mirrored to local Wikipedias during the process and not afterwards.

> The Help: namespace of individual projects should not be used for editing
> but for importing only (maybe some custom Help: pages and some header/
> footer changes, but that's it). The Project: namespace is for project-
> specific information.

Does importing work yet?

> Wikimedia is more than just Wikipedia. That's the whole point of putting
> it on meta - not giving preference to any individual project in
> maintaining the documentation. For a Wiktionary, Wikibooks, Wikiquote or
> Wikisource user, editing pages on Wikipedia is no easier than editing them
> on Meta.

Well, MediaWiki is mainly designed for Wikipedia. You drive other Wikis
with it, but for thinks like Wikitionary, Wikiquota, Wikievents and
other *Databases* it does not fit very well. Wikipedia is like a
fulltext database (remeber askSam?) but without a search-engine :-(

> Furthermore, the best way to educate our editors that this is a cross-
> project documentation is to put it on Meta:. As long as editors have a
> feeling that they are editing on Wikipedia, they will write specifically
> *about* Wikipedia.

Thats right but using and editing documentation should be made as simple
as posible.

Jakob


from_name: Steven Melenchuk

body:
Your mail client is supposed to do that for you. I don?t know where to
look, but I?m sure that you are not the only one on this list that has
AOL :)

~Grunt (Steven Melenchuk)

Cavs4 at aol.com wrote:

>Hi, this is Neutrality. Can anyone help me put "Neutrality" in the place where it's should be, instead of "Cavs4 at aol.com"? I'm not very technically proficient with mailing lists.
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


body:
On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 00:57, Fred Bauder wrote:
> Obviously I think it is accepted policy. The only question to my mind, is
> can any sysop block him. As to a warning, he's an old hand.

Continual problem users should be referred to arbitration, not
unilaterally blocked.

I think the fact that sie was immediately unblocked shows that it should
not have been done in the first place without (at the very least)
discussion.

Kate.


from_name: phil hunt

body:
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:11:20 +0100, Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at yurkycross.co.uk> wrote:
>
>The very idea of Wikipedia, it seems to me, is to avoid the dominance
>of any one group or person.

I thought it was to create an encyclopedia.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Changes to the skin system

body:
Hello,

I am currently rewriting the skin system. The aim is to provide our
users to easily install a new skin.

I commited a big design change this night:

* Skin.php and SkinPHPTal.php stay in /includes/ as all skins depends on
them.

* SkinCologneBlue.php, SkinNostalgia.php, SkinStandard.php,
SkinWikimediaWiki.php + class calls in SkinPHPTal.php are moved under
/skins/ directory.

My next steps other the next days will be to move /stylesheets/ and
/templates/ in the skin directory and build the skin detector :o)

Once my code is finished, skin designer will just have to zip a tree like:
/
-- skinname.php  // php class
-- skinname.xml  // PHPTal template
-- skinname/
    \-- bla.css
    \-- IEFixes.css
    \-- picture*.png

Then a end user will just have to unzip the skin designer file to the
/skin/ directory and the new skin will be available :o)

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] fwd: error report

body:
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:18:40 EDT
To: jwales at bomis.com
Subject: mistaken identity, I am afraid

Sir. The man who dated Del Boca in Argentina was Jeffrey A. Sachs, NOT  the
economist Jeffrey D.Sachs.
-------------------------------------
Jeffrey Sachs
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Jeffrey D.  Sachs
(born in _Detroit, Michigan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit,_Michigan)
,  in 1954) is regarded as one of the foremost economists in today's world.
He  received his BA, MA, and Ph.D. from _Harvard University_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University) .  He was professor at Harvard for a long time
until he moved to _Columbia University_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University)   to head the University's _Earth  Institute_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Earth_Institute&action=edit) .
In _Argentina_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina) , Sachs is humorously
 known as _Andrea Del Boca_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Del_Boca) 's
former  boyfriend. He dated the famous _telenovela_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telenovela)  actress from _1997_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997)  to
_1998_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998) .

----- End forwarded message -----


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Changes to the skin system

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am currently rewriting the skin system. The aim is to provide our
> users to easily install a new skin.
>
> I commited a big design change this night:
>
> * Skin.php and SkinPHPTal.php stay in /includes/ as all skins depends on
> them.
>
> * SkinCologneBlue.php, SkinNostalgia.php, SkinStandard.php,
> SkinWikimediaWiki.php + class calls in SkinPHPTal.php are moved under
> /skins/ directory.
>
>
> My next steps other the next days will be to move /stylesheets/ and
> /templates/ in the skin directory and build the skin detector :o)
>
>
> Once my code is finished, skin designer will just have to zip a tree like:
> /
> -- skinname.php  // php class
> -- skinname.xml  // PHPTal template
> -- skinname/
>    \-- bla.css
>    \-- IEFixes.css
>    \-- picture*.png
>
> Then a end user will just have to unzip the skin designer file to the
> /skin/ directory and the new skin will be available :o)
>

$wgValidSkinNames is also auto generated by listing the content of
/skins/ . The list of skins it detects is:

* Standard
* Nostalgie
* Cologne Blue
* DaVinci
* Mono
* Chick
* WikimediaWiki
* MySkin
* MonoBook

I am not sure they really looks ok, probably stylesheets aren't properly
loaded. Given it's 5:30 am I will check that later with the stylesheets
migration.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] more Israelis killed than Palestinians (was: Articles
	like "Violence against Israelis")

body:
If any Wikipedia article says that more Israelis have been killed in the
nationalistic violence of the last decade, then this should be corrected
immediately. The correct proportion is closer to 500 Israelis & 2,000
Palestinian Arabs. This ratio of 1:4 is off the top of my head and may
well be even higher.

Any articles which list victims by name, or group them by incident,
should be careful not to give the impression that the *numbers listed*
are representative of the *total numbers*.

I request that someone familiar with these articles go through them and
check them thoroughly for both these points, correct them necessary, and
report back to the list.

Ed Poor


from_name: ALBatro

subject: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia - The Pizza Connection ;o)...

body:
Stefan Jensen wrote:

>Good morning Sabine and everybody,
>Great to see more people joining into the communication. I am not a frequent user of the Wicki discussion tools which Gerhard proposes to use for this but I'll try to move things over to there. (And I see Bernard is already using it).
>
Dear Stefan,

really nice to "cybermeet" ;o) you and the others in this Wiki/EEA ring...
The merit or the blame - you'll see later... - is to be put on that
German Vesuvio ;o) who's definitely SabiNet...
We recently got in touch in a list of discussion - LANGIT - I quitted
very fast, for some reasons, after launching a project, RL - RAPTVS
LINGV?, which she was the only replier to.

As soon as Sabine has got some time to explain to me where and how to
effectively start to work in/for Wiki world with the support of EEA
(even if at present I'm already doing/studying really several things,
and would  need paid work, I'll be glad to play actually my part, also
owing to its being a good reference on the whole and it will let me learn.

My mother tongue is Italian, which I studied also at the university;
moreover I worked as a professional proofreader and editor for ten years
and am an author.

As for Chinese at least - I can't assure you nothing - but I'm in high
touch with some Chinese linguists (two women) who know English and are
interested in Italian too. They have a sort of translation agency on the
net and I created and moderate an  Itlaian subforum on their Chinese
website.

Enough & maybe too much?, for the time being...

ALBatro.
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from_name: Bill Konrad

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: What is a category?

body:
"Chris Wood" <standsongrace at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ch65tl$ose$1 at sea.gmane.org...
> What I'm arguing is, "is-a" is not going to work, it's too POV. What we
> have
> now is sets of related articles, which is all we need (is-a relationships
> *can* be represented this way, but are more flexible).

Is-a relations work just fine for noncontroversial categories. Quartz is a
type of mineral. Bill Clinton is (was) a U.S. President. Arnold
Schwartzennegger is a governor of California. Canada is a country in North
America. Then there are some areas that are a little more controversial, due
to judgements about the classification system used: should a particular
author be included in the category Fantasy writers, Science fiction writers,
or Horror writers, or all three? But I think most such questions could be
decided relatively amicably. (I realize that there are problems even with
such simple classes as well--e.g., the discussions about which counties
should be included in the Europe template--the line dividing Europe and Asia
is not self-evident at all points).

Where is gets much more difficult is where there are intense POV values
built into the categorization (especially where the defining criteria depend
on subjective determinations). Such as whether something is a work of
propaganda. Or whether a person is an alcoholic. Or if an incident was an
act of terrorism or of patriotism.

But I do not see how your distinction between related-to and is-a makes any
difference in such situations. I think the difficulties of NPOV
categorization are not that different from that of NPOV language in an
article in general. The language used to describe a person/thing/event
inevitably carries some subjective value judgements about the topic. The
criticism you make of categorization seems to be a variaton on a critique of
language in general. In your earlier post, you

I guess I simply do not understand how related-to is any better than or so
very different from is-a categorization. If you are suggesting that we
should have a very flat category structure with many more categories for
each article, then I very strongly disagree. Hierachichical categorization
is useful, despite the inherent difficulties with any categorization schema.
I do not see any significant attempts to make categorization in Wikipedia is
an endorsement of any single ontological worldview--there are mutliple
competing/complementary hierarchies. I think your assertion (in your earlier
post) that "Sets are much less POV" is simply wrong. A set is just as POV as
a hierarchy. Whether there is a list/set of alcoholics or of propaganda or
of acts of terrorism--inclusion in such a list/set is expressing a POV just
as much as if including within a hierarchical categorization schema.

Bkonrad


from_name: Stefan Jensen

subject: [Wikitech-l] RE: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia

body:
Good morning Sabine and everybody,
Great to see more people joining into the communication. I am not a frequent user of the Wicki discussion tools which Gerhard proposes to use for this but I'll try to move things over to there. (And I see Bernard is already using it).
Some points:
a) I understand Gerard wants to start with the Dutch (NL) language part of it. Please make sure you do not loose the link to the (English) definitions. In fact, maybe English - as the nucleus - shall go in first
b) If my technical knowhow is carrying me far enough, I would consider to use XML/RDF as technical transfer media and SKOS as the "description model". I think this "streamlining" could be beneficial since the community does not have to handle various technical solutions in parallel. But this might not work with the technology in Wiki - other folks have to decide on that
c) Sabine is supporting the open content approach and correctly refers to the reluctancy of other initiative to go along the same way. Why I opt for open content is (besides the fact I like the philosophy in general a lot and we folks in the environment domain are well advised to not sit on our stuff (data, terminologies etc.) if we want to make some impact) is the maintenance issue: While we have an overall good quality standard in GEMET, there are problems here and there - sharing through Wiki would allow for others (users) to comment and edit the stuff. Also they can add and link to other terminolgies (glossaries, thesaury ... whatsoever). I am aware that this can lead to chaos but my experience with Wictionary is that it (sometimes surpriseing for me) provides quality content without getting into this trouble
d) Mabe it is you neccessary somebody (Gerard?) starts with something (NL/EN), picking up the content from the GEMET area http://www.eionet.eu.int/gemet in the SKOS format (see also SWAD-Europe for reference)
e) By the way there are goodies availbale like definitions in Russian and Bulgarian ... there is also an initiative under way to get the stuff in Chinese ...

>>> I now paste thsi mail into the META discussion area and hoep this is a beneficial move ...

a sunny day from Copenhagen
stefan

-----Original Message-----
From: Sabine Cretella [mailto:sabine_cretella at yahoo.it]
Sent: 01 September 2004 19:26
To: wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
Cc: wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org; Stefan Jensen; Frankee; ALBatro;
urwo at hispeed.ch; glossarplus at yahoogroups.de; Daniele Maso;
transref at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia

Hi, I'd like to answer and at the same time to forward this message to
several people involved with "glossary creation and maintenance" as well
as interested user groups.

As some of you already know I'll have a similar task with uploading
"colours" in as many languages as possible to the Italian wiktionary
(list is still under completion) - at the same time I am trying to
create other thematic lists to be translated by colleagues and then
uploaded to wiktionary and used in the wsi-glossary project as well as
the Embedded DICTionary PROJect.

Now I know the GEMET as a very valuable source for translators (I myself
use it quite often) - so its release in the OpenContent would be a
wonderful achievement and not only for Wiktionary. So I would kindly
invite the people of other lists and direct contacts to join this
project and combine forces.

The meta page Gerard is talking about can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GEneral_Multilingual_Environmental_Thesaurus

If someone of you needs further explanation on how to add comments to
the link mentioned above and let us know what he/she can do, please just
ask. Maintain such a huge glossary in so many languages is a lot of work
and every helping hand (don't forget that there are many simple jobs as
well) is needed.

I know, not many of us are convinced about OpenSource and OpenContent,
but most of us use it every day sometimes without knowing about how much
work is behind.

So again: I invite you to join the project and to  make other people
aware of it - maybe writing and forwarding this message in other
languages as well.

And to Gerard: instead of breaking your teeth, could you please tell us
how we can help you? ;-)

Have a great evening!

Ciao, Sabine

*****

Sabine Cretella
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
www.wordsandmore.it
Meetingplace for translators
www.wesolveitnet.com

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Gemet is the "GEneral Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus". This
> thesaurus is maintained by the European Environment Agency. It
> contains a 5200 + glossary with translations of the words to 20+
> languages and descriptions in a few. The EEA wants to have this
> information in a wiki format, the data is open content.
>
> Mr Stefan Jensen, the project manager did sent me a mail as I am
> preparing to upload a botanical glossary into wiktionary (I said so on
> the wiktionary list). As the GEMET data is already on-line on the
> internet, and much better structured than the data that I have, I
> would first break my teeth on this one and then progress to my own
> glossary.
>
> However, I received a mail which shows how much he would appreciate
> cooperation; all kinds of people who have expertise in area's like
> Semantic Web, Ontologies, Thesaury, Topic Maps, XML, RDF, OASIS ...
> have had my mail forwarded. I have created an article on Meta
> [[GEneral Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus]]. I copied the mail to
> the talk page.
>
> My plans are simple I want to upload this stuff into nl:Wiktionary. I
> also plan to tag them with a [[Categorie:GEMET]]. When I have been
> succesfull, I will also be able to upload it to other wiktionaries.
> When somebody beats me to it, I will only be pleased.
>
> As I have seen many a time on Wikitech stuff about XML etc, it might
> be a good idea to synchronise what GEMET does and what we do. So
> please discuss this preferably on Meta, or on the lists. I have no
> good idea about how difficult this may prove to be.. Again,
> information on META.
>
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia - The Pizza
	Connection ; o)...

body:
Stefan Jensen wrote:

>Good morning Sabine and everybody,
>Great to see more people joining into the communication. I am not a frequent user of the Wicki discussion tools which Gerhard proposes to use for this but I'll try to move things over to there. (And I see Bernard is already using it).
>
Dear Stefan,

really nice to "cybermeet" ;o) you and the others in this Wiki/EEA ring...
The merit or the blame - you'll see later... - is to be put on that
German Vesuvio ;o) who's definitely SabiNet...
We recently got in touch in a list of discussion - LANGIT - I quitted
very fast, for some reasons, after launching a project, RL - RAPTVS
LINGV?, which she was the only replier to.

As soon as Sabine has got some time to explain to me where and how to
effectively start to work in/for Wiki world with the support of EEA
(even if at present I'm already doing/studying really several things,
and would  need paid work, I'll be glad to play actually my part, also
owing to its being a good reference on the whole and it will let me learn.

My mother tongue is Italian, which I studied also at the university;
moreover I worked as a professional proofreader and editor for ten years
and am an author.

As for Chinese at least - I can't assure you nothing - but I'm in high
touch with some Chinese linguists (two women) who know English and are
interested in Italian too. They have a sort of translation agency on the
net and I created and moderate an  Itlaian subforum on their Chinese
website.

Enough & maybe too much?, for the time being...

ALBatro.
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from_name: Chris Wood

subject: [WikiEN-l] Continued

body:
The above essay assumes that sets are taken advantage of fully by allowing
multiple inheritance and possibly even inheritance loops, and encouraging
articles and categories to be given many categories rather than just one or
two.

--
Chris Wood


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: What is a category?

body:
> So what would you suggest? We could stop categories from being able to
> show up in other categories - that would neatly abolish the hierarchy.
> OTOH, many articles would end up with a ridiculous number of cats at
> the top (currently kept in check by the rough rule that if it's in a
> subcat, you don't put it in the cat as well).

No, what I meant is allow any arbitrary categorization scheme - sets can,
after all, be inside other sets (or more than one set). A "related to"
scheme rather than "is a". See "Continued" below

--
Chris Wood


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] The darned template 5-includes limit problem

body:
I'm sick and tired of hearing about this. Increasing the limit won't
stop it since then people will complain about that limit too.

As far as I know the recursion protection was changed to work
differently in 1.4 so there is not a hard number limit. Can someone
confirm, and is it a simple change to port to 1.3 or not?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] RFC article on the use of templates in wiktionary

body:
Hoi,
I have written
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Using_templates_in_Wiktionary to explain
how the system with templates works in nl:wiktionary. I have written it
now because of the GEMET data that will be copied in propably many
wiktionaries.

The system described works. It is however a kludge to be used untill
there is a better way of doing the things that are tried to achieve.

The article is particularly written for Sabine Cretella and Jimbo Wales.
I promissed Jimbo last Saturday to try to explain it better.

Thanks,
  Gerard


subject: [Wiktionary-l] RFC article on the use of templates in wiktionary


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Header numbers

body:
Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> Hello,
> every now and then I see rendered ==headers== with numbers. That is, the
> same number scheme applied to the TOC:
>
> 1 this
> 2 that
> 2.1 the other
>
> will appear on also on the subsequent text:
>
> 1 this
> ---------
> (paragraph)
>
> 2 that
> ---------
> (paragraph)
>
> 2.1 the other
>
> (paragraph)
>
>
> Before I file a bug report, is this expected behaviour during some
> operations? cache updates? I noticed this on it: and don't know if it
> happens on en: and other languages too.

This is due to the numberheadings user preference not being included in
the user preferences record for the parser cache. I thought I fixed that
a couple of weeks ago. I'll have another look.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Till Westermayer

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Voting begins on [[Wikipedia:Administrator
	Accountability Policy]]

body:
[01.09.04: crazyr2 at shaw.ca]

>Voting has begun on this policy and will carry on until the 8th.
>Please read the policy cast your votes.

TWIMC: The correct page is

[[Wikipedia:Administrators/Administrator Accountability Policy]]

in the English wikipedia,

i.e.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators/Administrator_Accountability_Policy

not the one given in the title.

bye, __ .
     / / / /


from_name: Sabine Cretella

body:
Hi Gerard,

thank you for sending me the link to the actual page of the codes - I
just started to insert language names on the Italian wiktionary - I
think, this should be done before adding other translations and for the
future I'll start using the ISO-System and amend things where I find
them. This will help us all - and so it is easy to create lists with
many translations to be copied in the wiki of any language.

One thing we should think about in a second stage: bring them in the
alphabetical order of that specific country or leave the iso code before
the language name.

e.g. for the English version:
de - German
en - English
it - Italian
etc.

Who else of the Italian wiktionary is on this list? Could you please PM me?

Thanks!

Ciao, Sabine

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> I have written
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Using_templates_in_Wiktionary to
> explain how the system with templates works in nl:wiktionary. I have
> written it now because of the GEMET data that will be copied in
> propably many wiktionaries.
>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] max allowed packets

body:
bethcoffelt at comcast.net wrote:
> While trying to import either the old or cur data for wikipedia, I get the following error message:
>
> [root at lnx1 beth]# mysql -uspider -p wikipedia < wikipedia_cur_table.sql
> Enter password:
> ERROR 1153 at line 1018: Got a packet bigger than 'max_allowed_packet'

You need to increase the max_allowed_packet setting to 16M. See:

http://www.mysql.com/news-and-events/newsletter/2003-08/a0000000216.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] Changes to the skin system

body:
On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 03:49 +0200, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

> Once my code is finished, skin designer will just have to zip a tree like:
> /
> -- skinname.php  // php class
> -- skinname.xml  // PHPTal template

I think it would be desirable to be able to add more skins based on the
same template easily, without re-adding the xml template or a class. A
css/picture dir and the skin name added to an array could be enough.

The idea behind the heavy use of css was mainly to avoid having many
templates, and to have a mainly structural xhtml that's as decoupled as
possible from the actual appearance. Makes maintanance probably a bit
easier and helps with future improvements to the caching system.

I fear that skin designers would be tempted to simply modify the xml if
it was mandatory to add a per-skin template anyway.

But then, the caching scheme isn't implemented yet, so it doesn't matter
that much currently. Could be hard to reverse though.
I found it interesting to see that the website of the athens olympics
was ESI-based as well, shows that it's not too exotic technology.
--
Gabriel Wicke


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: What is a category?

references:
<ch3p7g$239$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<413629E4.90601@thingy.apana.org.au><ch5gjq$i8a$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<ch5h73$jhb$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
"Timwi" <timwi at gmx.net> wrote in message
news:ch5h73$jhb$1 at sea.gmane.org...
> So henceforth, writers are related to people?
Category:People is a set of related articles (all are about people). Writers
is a subset of people. The relation is subset.

--
Chris Wood


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: What is a category?

body:
What I'm arguing is, "is-a" is not going to work, it's too POV. What we have
now is sets of related articles, which is all we need (is-a relationships
*can* be represented this way, but are more flexible).

--
Chris Wood


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: What is a category?

body:
That's the next step: Set manipulations (set (the category and all it's
subcategories), intersections, unions).

--
Chris Wood


subject: [Wikitech-l] document mediawiki code ?

body:
Hello,

As part of the documentation of mediawiki, I am willing to document the
code. I am testing phpdocumentator ( http://www.phpdoc.org/ ).

It works by using comments in the code that looks like:

/**
  * Method to return an articleID
  * @private
  */
function getArticleID () {
  ...
}

You can get an output example at :
     http://www.twenkill.net/mwdoc/
(site available only when I am online).

Are we willing to flood our code with such comments ? I personally think
it will help new developpers to come help us and let older developpers
to better understand the whole software.

cheers,

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Please change the maximum number of times a template
	can be included from 5 to 10

body:
The french have complained about this before as they use a template in
front of every external link. But i'll do it again here. On is. we
have a template called Mynd (The name of the Image namespace) which we
use in the following way:

{{Mynd|http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/1/1f/300px-Mahameru-volcano.jpg|right|300px|[[Mahameru]]
eldfjalli ? [[eyja|eyjunni]] [[Java]] ? [[Ind?nes?a|Ind?nes?u]]}}

Where we would otherwise do:

[[Mynd:Mahameru-volcano.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[Mahameru]] eldfjalli ?
[[eyja|eyjunni]] [[Java]] ? [[Ind?nes?a|Ind?nes?u]]]]

However this means we have to have to use Sni?:Mynd2 for images 6..10
which doesnt look pretty in the source.

Could you please change the maximum number of times a template can be
included from 5 to 10? 10 would be more than enaugh i think.


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Articles like "Violence against Israelis"

body:
Eric B. Rakim wrote:

>> I wasn't comparing. My interest is in Wikipedia. In any case, such
>> comparisons do not make things inevitable and therefore unworthy of
>> thought.
>>
>> The very idea of Wikipedia, it seems to me, is to avoid the dominance
>> of any one group or person. That it does such a good job of this is
>> actually all the more reason to keep in mind that it is not perfect
>> and why.
>
> People where saying the exact same thing a decade ago when the world
> wide web was all the rage. That the "internet" would revolutionize
> human society, that direct democracy would become usable and that all
> forms of oppression and mass media control would magically disappear..
> halleluja!

Well, no, that's not what I said.

Christiaan


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, [ISO-8859-1] ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

>The french have complained about this before as they use a template in
>front of every external link. But i'll do it again here. On is. we
>have a template called Mynd (The name of the Image namespace) which we
>use in the following way:
>
>{{Mynd|http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/1/1f/300px-Mahameru-volcano.jpg|right|300px|[[Mahameru]]
>eldfjalli ? [[eyja|eyjunni]] [[Java]] ? [[Ind?nes?a|Ind?nes?u]]}}

Using a syntax like that you either force wikimedia not to change the
directory structure ever again, or (more probably) you'll need to change
all your links when (if) that happens. It would be better to stick with
ordinary Image: (or Mynd:) links.

Alfio


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject: [Wikitech-l] Recent Changes view problem (diff) (hist) ...

body:
The "(diff)" links on my recent changes RC views on all of my wikis are
not working, I mean they link to the difference of "current version"
MINUS "current version", which is zero of course

Example content of "(diff)" links in RC view
http://myserver/mywiki/index.php?title=Main_page&curid=605&diff=1217&oldid=1217

I have this since I migrated in the normal way i.e. running the scripts
and following the instructions from 1.2.6 to 1.3.1 .
The freshly installed 1.3.2 has the same problems.

Can someone help me ?


subject:
[WikiEN-l] So write an article about it (was: Anent Dartmouth,
	Again)

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Christiaan complained:
>
>> Just to clarify, I never argued that these people died and suffered
>> _because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has
>> extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership
>> feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite
>> (imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.).
>> Cognitive dissonance often being the outcome when actuality comes to
>> light.
>
> If you think Western Civilization has not lived up to its ideals,
> please write a Wikipedia article comparing and contrasting Western
> ideals with Western actions.

Well, its good advice, but my point wasn't to tell you all why I think
the West falls short of its rhetoric. My point was simply to make
people aware that at least some of us find comments such as Geoff's
ethnocentric and offensive. People can take from that what they like;
that an intense discussion ensued is not surprising but it wasn't my
aim.

Christiaan


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Please change the maximum number of times a
	template can be included from 5 to 10

body:
It's used so that we dont have to go through the trauble of uploading
all of them each time we need a picture that exists on the english
wikipedia already.

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:32:47 +0200 (MEST), Alfio Puglisi
<puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, [ISO-8859-1] ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
>
> >The french have complained about this before as they use a template in
> >front of every external link. But i'll do it again here. On is. we
> >have a template called Mynd (The name of the Image namespace) which we
> >use in the following way:
> >
> >{{Mynd|http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/1/1f/300px-Mahameru-volcano.jpg|right|300px|[[Mahameru]]
> >eldfjalli ? [[eyja|eyjunni]] [[Java]] ? [[Ind?nes?a|Ind?nes?u]]}}
>
> Using a syntax like that you either force wikimedia not to change the
> directory structure ever again, or (more probably) you'll need to change
> all your links when (if) that happens. It would be better to stick with
> ordinary Image: (or Mynd:) links.
>
> Alfio
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Krzysztof Kowalczyk

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: better search engine for MediaWiki?

body:
Why not just use Lucene
(http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene/docs/index.html) or one of its many
ports?

It's mature, stable, open-source, actively developed and widely
considered to be a very fast, and very high-quality full-text
searching and indexing engine started by an expert in full-text
searching (http://www.nutch.org/blog/cutting.html,
http://lucene.sourceforge.net/publications.html)

And it does Unicode just fine.

Krzysztof Kowalczyk | http://blog.kowalczyk.info


from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Voting begins on
	[[Wikipedia:AdministratorAccountability Policy]]

body:
Specific local policy is of no interest to participants of all projects.

Please, try to post news to the right mailing list.

thanks.

Christopher Larberg a ?crit:
> However, I believe this is an English Wikipedia policy, is it not?
>
> -Slowking Man
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Steven Melenchuk<mailto:crazyr2 at shaw.ca>   To: wikipedia-l-Qm5IaAUhVgiGglJvpFV4uA at public.gmane.org<mailto:wikipedia-l-Qm5IaAUhVgiGglJvpFV4uA at public.gmane.org> ; wikien-l-Qm5IaAUhVgiGglJvpFV4uA at public.gmane.org<mailto:wikien-l-Qm5IaAUhVgiGglJvpFV4uA at public.gmane.org>   Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 5:38 PM
>   Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Voting begins on [[Wikipedia:AdministratorAccountability Policy]]
>
>
>   Voting has begun on this policy and will carry on until the 8th. Please
>   read the policy cast your votes.
>
>   ~Grunt (Steven Melenchuk)


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Voting begins on [[Wikipedia:Administrator
	Accountability Policy]]

body:
Specific local policy is of no interest to participants of all projects.

Please, try to post news to the right mailing list.

thanks.

Till Westermayer a ?crit:
> [01.09.04: crazyr2 at shaw.ca]
>
>
>>Voting has begun on this policy and will carry on until the 8th.
>>Please read the policy cast your votes.
>
>
> TWIMC: The correct page is
>
> [[Wikipedia:Administrators/Administrator Accountability Policy]]
>
> in the English wikipedia,
>
> i.e.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators/Administrator_Accountability_Policy
>
> not the one given in the title.
>
> bye, __ .
>      / / / /


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Please change the maximum number of times a	template
	can be included from 5 to 10

body:
?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

>It's used so that we dont have to go through the trauble of uploading
>all of them each time we need a picture that exists on the english
>wikipedia already.
>
>On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:32:47 +0200 (MEST), Alfio Puglisi
><puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, [ISO-8859-1] ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The french have complained about this before as they use a template in
>>>front of every external link. But i'll do it again here. On is. we
>>>have a template called Mynd (The name of the Image namespace) which we
>>>use in the following way:
>>>
>>>{{Mynd|http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/1/1f/300px-Mahameru-volcano.jpg|right|300px|[[Mahameru]]
>>>eldfjalli ? [[eyja|eyjunni]] [[Java]] ? [[Ind?nes?a|Ind?nes?u]]}}
>>>
>>>
>>Using a syntax like that you either force wikimedia not to change the
>>directory structure ever again, or (more probably) you'll need to change
>>all your links when (if) that happens. It would be better to stick with
>>ordinary Image: (or Mynd:) links.
>>
>>Alfio
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikitech-l mailing list
>>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
>
The functionality that you want, will eventually be a function of
WikiCommons.

This does illustrate the need for this functionality. The same is true
for the amount of pictures that can be uploaded to WikiCommons but are not.

WHEN are we going to have at least the environment to upload ??

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: New serious bug in section editing?

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Rowan Collins wrote:
>> Oddly, that bug hadn't been migrated from SourceForge yet - is timwi
>> still "in progress" on that for some reason, or are they all supposed
>> to have been transferred by now?
>
>
> I was told not to migrate more bugs for as long as SourceForge is in
> read-only mode, because it means that I can't tag bugs at SourceForge as
> already having been migrated.

That was a six-hour maintenance downtime which has been over for a day
or two by now.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Changes to the skin system

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
>
> The idea behind the heavy use of css was mainly to avoid having many
> templates, and to have a mainly structural xhtml that's as decoupled as
> possible from the actual appearance. Makes maintanance probably a bit
> easier and helps with future improvements to the caching system.

While I applaud your efforts to de-couple, as you say, the document
structure (XHTML) from the layout (CSS), I don't agree that we should
expect, or even encourage, future skin designers from re-using the same
XHTML. I can't speak for others, but I at least find it incredibly hard
to make a website look the way I want with just CSS. For example, your
XHTML pretty much hard-codes the category box to be at the bottom of
articles; to move it up requires JavaScript, which can get extremely
messy if you want to move loads of objects around and not just one. Not
to mention wanting to move it outside the article div (turn it into a
portlet, say).

> I fear that skin designers would be tempted to simply modify the xml if
> it was mandatory to add a per-skin template anyway.

Nothing should stop them from doing so if they so wish.

> But then, the caching scheme isn't implemented yet, so it doesn't matter
> that much currently. Could be hard to reverse though.

In that case, I'll object to any change that would require skins to use
the same XHTML ;-)

Timwi


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: document mediawiki code ?

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

> Are we willing to flood our code with such comments ? I personally think
> it will help new developpers to come help us and let older developpers
> to better understand the whole software.

I, for one, support this movement.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: The darned template 5-includes limit problem

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> I'm sick and tired of hearing about this. Increasing the limit won't
> stop it since then people will complain about that limit too.

You're not yet sick and tired of the case-sensitivity debate on
Wiktionary? :)


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: Re: What is a category?

body:
At 11:11 AM 9/3/2004 +1200, Chris Wood wrote:

>I really wasn't clear at all in that first post. I mean that articles and
>categories should belong to *many* categories, rather than being in a strict
>hierarchy. So in your example, put the author in all three categories -
>Fantasy writers, SF writers and Horror writers.

In the current system, articles can belong to many categories _and_ be in
hierarchies. There already is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Science_fiction_writers ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fantasy_writers and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Horror_writers , and each of these
categories belongs to both the "writers" hierarchy (part of the "people"
hierarchy) and their respective genre hierarchies as well.

I'm not sure what calling these things "sets" and "subsets" would add that
isn't already there.


body:
I know, and thats kind of why i dont copy images from en but use my template.

In the meantime until we have the commons could someone turn up the
number of allowed includes?

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 19:23:24 +0200, Gerard Meijssen
<gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>
> ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
>
> >It's used so that we dont have to go through the trauble of uploading
> >all of them each time we need a picture that exists on the english
> >wikipedia already.
> >
> >On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:32:47 +0200 (MEST), Alfio Puglisi
> ><puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, [ISO-8859-1] ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>The french have complained about this before as they use a template in
> >>>front of every external link. But i'll do it again here. On is. we
> >>>have a template called Mynd (The name of the Image namespace) which we
> >>>use in the following way:
> >>>
> >>>{{Mynd|http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/1/1f/300px-Mahameru-volcano.jpg|right|300px|[[Mahameru]]
> >>>eldfjalli ? [[eyja|eyjunni]] [[Java]] ? [[Ind?nes?a|Ind?nes?u]]}}
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Using a syntax like that you either force wikimedia not to change the
> >>directory structure ever again, or (more probably) you'll need to change
> >>all your links when (if) that happens. It would be better to stick with
> >>ordinary Image: (or Mynd:) links.
> >>
> >>Alfio
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Wikitech-l mailing list
> >>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikitech-l mailing list
> >Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> The functionality that you want, will eventually be a function of
> WikiCommons.
>
> This does illustrate the need for this functionality. The same is true
> for the amount of pictures that can be uploaded to WikiCommons but are not.
>
> WHEN are we going to have at least the environment to upload ??
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] The darned template 5-includes limit problem

body:
Well no, people wont complain, the french complained about the 5 limit
because they use it in their == External links ==, now, alot of pages
have 5-7 external links but not alot have 10+ And very few pages have
more than 5 images but very very few have more than 10, most have 0-3.

So no, i dont think that people will complain again if you raise the
limit to 10.

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:16:53 -0700, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> I'm sick and tired of hearing about this. Increasing the limit won't
> stop it since then people will complain about that limit too.
>
> As far as I know the recursion protection was changed to work
> differently in 1.4 so there is not a hard number limit. Can someone
> confirm, and is it a simple change to port to 1.3 or not?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>


from_name: bethcoffelt at comcast.net

subject: [Wikipedia-l] max allowed packets

body:
Hi,

While trying to import either the old or cur data for wikipedia, I get the following error message:

[root at lnx1 beth]# mysql -uspider -p wikipedia < wikipedia_cur_table.sql
Enter password:
ERROR 1153 at line 1018: Got a packet bigger than 'max_allowed_packet'

I am using MySQL 4.0.  Please advise.

Sincerely,

Beth A. Coffelt


body:
Timwi wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> I'm sick and tired of hearing about this. Increasing the limit won't
>> stop it since then people will complain about that limit too.
>
>
> You're not yet sick and tired of the case-sensitivity debate on
> Wiktionary? :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
You will certainly make me happy backporting the "recursion protection"
from 1.4. Not only case-sensitivity is on my wish list. Today is a good
day anyway :)

Thanks,
    GerardM


body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
>
> Well, if you want to cache the entire page the xhtml has to be pretty
> much the same. If you're prepared to generate a new page for every skin
> you can go the easier route. Then you have to accept that it's not as
> fast to generate a page many times.

Won't this problem go away once we can cache a parse tree? :-)


body:
On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 19:49 +0100, Timwi wrote:
> > I fear that skin designers would be tempted to simply modify the xml if
> > it was mandatory to add a per-skin template anyway.
>
> Nothing should stop them from doing so if they so wish.

That's not what i was suggesting, i was merely lobbying against
promoting this way of skinning as it has disadvantages further down the
road, mainly with accessibility and caching.

> > But then, the caching scheme isn't implemented yet, so it doesn't matter
> > that much currently. Could be hard to reverse though.
>
> In that case, I'll object to any change that would require skins to use
> the same XHTML ;-)

Well, if you want to cache the entire page the xhtml has to be pretty
much the same. If you're prepared to generate a new page for every skin
you can go the easier route. Then you have to accept that it's not as
fast to generate a page many times.

I've tried to move towards more caching in all skin- and pref-related
changes i've done so far. Unfortunately enthusiasm for more caching has
been very limited so far and it's not completely trivial to implement.
No need to fight for something nobody wants. A bit sad nevertheless.
--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Timwi-
> Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

>> Are we willing to flood our code with such comments ? I personally think
>> it will help new developpers to come help us and let older developpers
>> to better understand the whole software.

> I, for one, support this movement.

It's certainly a good start. However, function headers are only one part
-- if a function goes over many pages, individual parts still have to be
documented properly, which in many cases they currently are not. I would
especially like to make it a requirement that any new option in
DefaultSettings.php has to be documented properly, or it will not be
accepted. Often it is not trivial for others to figure out what a
particular option does.

Eventually, I think all the administrative options should be accessible
through a web interface, like they are with phpBB etc. For that, we really
need good documentation of what they do. Similarly, the people writing the
Administrator's Guide on Meta will go through the configuration file. When
they see something like

 $wgEnableSoap = false;
 # Enable SOAP interface. Off by default

the comment doesn't really tell them anything the code didn't already.
What is the SOAP interface and what does it do? That needs to be
documented beyond CVS comments. In comparison, my comment for the
ExtraNamespace feature was:

# Additional namespaces. If the namespaces defined in Language.php and
# Namespace.php are insufficient, you can create new ones here, for
# example, to import Help files in other languages.
# PLEASE NOTE: Once you delete a namespace, the pages in that namespace
# will no longer be accessible. If you rename it, then you can access them
# through the new namespace name.
#
# Custom namespaces should start at 100.

Granted, the actual option is more complex (an array rather than a
boolean). Still, we need to explain for each option exactly what it does.
When you have a good source code comment, you can copy and paste it into
the CVS summary, or you can say "see diff" in the summary.

We have to build our documentation up in layers, and our code is the most
basic layer. Everything else depends on it being properly commented.

We probably also should separate options which can have undesirable
effects post-installation (e.g. changing $wgLanguageCode requires
rebuilding all messages) from those which can be changed at any time
without problems.

We have a basic dev policy at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Development_policy

Maybe that can be fleshed out a bit more and sent to anyone who applies
for CVS access.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:

> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 22:33 +0100, Timwi wrote:
>
>>Gabriel Wicke wrote:
>
>>Won't this problem go away once we can cache a parse tree? :-)
>
> No.

Oh, sorry, I was in the clouds when I wrote that. Of course we want to
cache finished pages.

I was just thinking that once we have cachable parse trees, generating a
page from it might not be as intensive and "bottlenecky" as currently.

Timwi


from_name: Geoff Burling

body:
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Christiaan Briggs wrote:

> Poor, Edmund W wrote:
>
> > Christiaan complained:
> >
> >> Just to clarify, I never argued that these people died and suffered
> >> _because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has
> >> extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership
> >> feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite
> >> (imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.).
> >> Cognitive dissonance often being the outcome when actuality comes to
> >> light.
> >
> > If you think Western Civilization has not lived up to its ideals,
> > please write a Wikipedia article comparing and contrasting Western
> > ideals with Western actions.
>
> Well, its good advice, but my point wasn't to tell you all why I think
> the West falls short of its rhetoric. My point was simply to make
> people aware that at least some of us find comments such as Geoff's
> ethnocentric and offensive. People can take from that what they like;
> that an intense discussion ensued is not surprising but it wasn't my
> aim.
>
If that was your intent, then you failed miserably, Christiaan. All that
your emails communicated to me was that you have a poor opinion about
Western Civilization, & have expressed it so vehemently & uncompromisingly
that I don't see any point in responding to what you have to say. Or even
reading it.

If you go back & read what I wrote, you will see that I showed an awareness
that not everyone might agree with me. And I attempted to express myself
in a way that any reasonable person would not find offensive -- or at least
not say things like "Who the hell do you think you are?"

And then when I read your stated belief that:

> I never argued that these people died and suffered
> _because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has
> extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership
> feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite
> (imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.)

I'm left with an unclear sense how you want us to react. If these ideals
are nothing more than opiates to distract us from the fact we members of
Western Civilization are wreaking evil upon the rest of the world, then
should we dispense with our collective denial & destroy every trace of
our culture & kill ourselves in hope that will cleanse the earth of our
crimes? Or should we simply all accept that we are little better than
thugs & Storm Troopers, & instead take pride in how we oppress & exploit
other peoples & nations?

I am not being ironic here: your view of Western Civilization is so
condemning & so extreme that I find nothing I can discuss about it with you.
And frankly, from what I've read that you have written, I don't feel that
you will be happy on Wikipedia because there are many people contributing
to Wikipedia who will be praising the ideals, products, & other results
of Western Civilization far more fulsomely -- & most likely more fluently --
than I will ever do.

And as a last point, find another word than "ethnocentric" to apply to
what I have asserted. The word "ethnocentric" means to "hold one's race
as superior to all others" -- & I feel your use of this word accuses me
of being racist. That I am clearly not, & except for throwing this word
about, you have failed to show that I am so -- unless somehow by my
definition of "Western Civilization" you believe that I have excluded
non-Caucasian members of this culture such as Asian Americans, Black
British, French of North African origin, & countless more groups I could
recount. And one could only believe that by abusively misinterpreting
what I have written.

Geoff


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Header numbers

body:
> This is due to the numberheadings user preference not being included in
> the user preferences record for the parser cache. I thought I fixed that
> a couple of weeks ago. I'll have another look.
>
> -- Tim Starling

Maybe the pages have just remained cached for the last couple of weeks on it: ?

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: max allowed packets

body:
bethcoffelt at comcast.net wrote:

> [root at lnx1 beth]# mysql -uspider -p wikipedia < wikipedia_cur_table.sql
> Enter password:
> ERROR 1153 at line 1018: Got a packet bigger than 'max_allowed_packet'

At least you got such an informative message! The message you get in
MySQL 3.2 is "MySQL server has gone away". Not very useful. :-)


from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Namespaces for Latin Wiktionary

body:
There are several namespaces in the Latin Wiktionary that are still untranslated, and if anybody can implement the translations or direct me to how to do it I'd be much grateful;

"Project" namespace, currently "Wikipedia" (!) should be "Victionarium"
Project talk = Disputatio Victionarii

"Template" namespace, currently "Template", should be "Exemplum"
Template talk = Disputatio exempli

"Help" namespace, currently "Help", should be "Auxilium"
Help talk = Disputatio auxilii

"Category" namespace, currently "Category", should be "Categoria"
Category talk = Disputatio categoriae

Apologies if this has been sent before >_<

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


body:
On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 22:33 +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Gabriel Wicke wrote:

> Won't this problem go away once we can cache a parse tree? :-)

No.
--
Gabriel Wicke


subject: [Wikitech-l] New serious bug in section editing?

body:
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:06:28 +0200 (MEST), Alfio Puglisi
<puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>
> It happened to me a couple of times today, but I dismissed it as an error
> of mine. While looking at recent changes, i saw it happened some more
> times to different users.
>
> When one edits a section of a long article, upon saving the page a big
> portion of the article (sometimes everything from that section down to the
> end) gets replicated, and you end up with an article twice as long.

Ah, sounds like my old "friend"
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=275 - basically,
something nasty happens when you get into an edit conflict with
yourself, especially with section editing (or that was the best
diagnosis last I heard, anyway...).

Oddly, that bug hadn't been migrated from SourceForge yet - is timwi
still "in progress" on that for some reason, or are they all supposed
to have been transferred by now?

On which note, someone needs to close
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=949323&group_id=34373&atid=411192
now that I have migrated it.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
It happened to me a couple of times today, but I dismissed it as an error
of mine. While looking at recent changes, i saw it happened some more
times to different users.

When one edits a section of a long article, upon saving the page a big
portion of the article (sometimes everything from that section down to the
end) gets replicated, and you end up with an article twice as long.

Saw it also on it:Wikipedia:Bar, the equivalent of the english Village
Pump. Went from 120 KB to 240 KB in a single edit that inserted an entire
copy of the Bar inside a comment.

See for example this edit (image maintenance page):

http://it.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Immagini_da_verificare&diff=155777&oldid=155775

User:Painlord2k was just trying to remove the [[:Image:Torvalds1.jpg]] at
the end, but the entire 134-items list in the previous section was
duplicated, and the article got twice as long!

Alfio


from_name: Kurt Jansson

body:
Alfio Puglisi schrieb:

> When one edits a section of a long article, upon saving the page a big
> portion of the article (sometimes everything from that section down to the
> end) gets replicated, and you end up with an article twice as long.

I think this is the corresponding bug report:
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56

It's not new, I've seen this many times.

Kurt


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Header numbers

body:
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Rowan Collins wrote:

>> This is due to the numberheadings user preference not being included in
>> the user preferences record for the parser cache. I thought I fixed that
>> a couple of weeks ago. I'll have another look.
>>
>> -- Tim Starling
>
>Maybe the pages have just remained cached for the last couple of weeks on it: ?

No, it goes on and off in a few minutes on the same article. Every now and
then I also get English localization: "Article", "Move", "Delete" and so
on, insted of the translated Italian version. Maybe it's a related
problem.

Alfio


body:
Rowan Collins wrote:

> Oddly, that bug hadn't been migrated from SourceForge yet - is timwi
> still "in progress" on that for some reason, or are they all supposed
> to have been transferred by now?

I was told not to migrate more bugs for as long as SourceForge is in
read-only mode, because it means that I can't tag bugs at SourceForge as
already having been migrated.

Timwi


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: phase3/includes Defines.php, 1.7, 1.8 Article.php,
	1.216, 1.217

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

>   /**#@+
> ! /**#@- */

What do these mean?


from_name: Jochen Magnus

body:
Hi,

> [[de:Benutzer:Joma]] has written a fast search engine ...

well I am "joma" and after Magnus gave me a hint, I finally found this
newsgroup ;-)

I wrote a fulltext engine, called "joda". Fortunatly it works for our
Wikipedia mirror on http://lexikon.rhein-zeitung.de/ stable for some
weeks. Unfortunatly I have to change the name (which I find quite
pretty) because it is already in use at sourceforge ;-)

But however it will be named, I am willing to pusblish the source in
sourceforge and I hope, it will be useful for the Wikipedia project!

I wrote joda years ago as an fulltext database for the online archives
of our local newspaper for which I work for. In this environment, joda
stores up to 80 million words for one vintage (volume) of our paper.
This is approximately the same counter as I do expect for the english
wikipedia and four times more than the german one. Therefore I am
thinking that it is sufficient for Wikipedia, for which I made some
improvements in the last few month. In the first line my program is now
able to update existing files (which means word lists in the joda context).

joda works as an enhancement to the MySQL database. All it knows are
nearly all words in Wikipedia (nearly means: except [common] stopp
words), their  positions in the text and the text to which they belong
to (this means the primary key of the table 'cur', the cur_id).

joda requests can quite easily be integrated into the module
SearchEngine.php of the Mediawiki software. I tested this in practice
(http://wikipedia.rhein-zeitung.de/  - use the "Suche" Button ie. for
(Albert and.1 Einstein) and Quant* not Physik*.

You see that joda can handle word logical operators like AND, OR, NOT
and NEAR, word distance values (ie. and.50 for the NEAR operator) and
parenthesis for grouping the operators. The syntax parser tries to
optimate such complex requests by the expectation of the number of hits
for each branche.

There are four joda binaries: a command line programm, a TCP based
server, a C-standard library for which a collegue of mine and I wrote
import interfaces to Perl and Python and a CGI programm for read only
access in a web environment.

For Wikipedia we can use the library version for an overall indexing.
Therefore I wrote (and will publish to) a Perl script which archives the
whole content of the cur table (in our case only namespace 0). The joda
server version can be used in one or multiple processes (this will
require a kind of load balancing) and in one process for updating
changing articles in a master database.

I am not sure but there may be one drop of bitterness: At the time, joda
is not able to work internally with Unicode. This is because the recent
Free Pascal compiler version has no well Unicode support. But
practically joda can convert UTF-8 into all ISO-8859 charsets while
archiving or retrieving. So the restriction pertains only to language
which uses more than 256 chars. When Free Pascal will get a full Unicode
Support (which is on their roadmap) I can extend joda for those languages.

So long for the moment. In the next few days I will pusblish joda at
sourceforge under GPL. I'm afraid that I will have a lot to do with
documentation...

jo

P.S.: joda does not know anything about cases. It is case insensitiv in
its core :-)


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
>>   /**#@+
>> ! /**#@- */
>
>
> What do these mean?

Hello,

That's for Phpdocumentor.

It define a template that will be applied to each element until it reach
/**#@- */

Example from the documentation:

1 class Bob
2     {
3         // beginning of docblock template area
4         /**#@+
5          * @access private
6          */
7         var $_var1 = 'hello';
8         var $_var2 = 'my';
9         var $_var3 = 'name';
10        /**#@-*/
11       var $publicvar = 'Lookee me!';
12    }

$_var1, $_var2, $_var3 will be flagged with "@access private" but
$publicvar will not (it's outside of template).

It's make code comments harder to read but allow for some great
documentation to be generated.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
No. However, your points while well taken, point to the need for those who
recognize the bias built in to the system to do what they can to counteract
them. But there is simply no way we can provide internet access to those who
languish in North Korean concentration camps or who live in traditional
tribal African societies. Others must speak for them.

Fred

> From: Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at yurkycross.co.uk>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:39:46 +0100
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"
>
> phil hunt wrote:
>
>>> The very idea of Wikipedia, it seems to me, is to avoid the dominance
>>> of any one group or person.
>>
>> I thought it was to create an encyclopedia.
>
> Right, just another encyclopedia?
>
> Christiaan
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] 'Michael' unbanned

body:
As an experiment, I am going to unban Michael and place him under the
mentorship of Danny and Guanaco, who will watch after him.  He will
edit only under his new [[Mike Garcia]] account, and promises to make
only good edits.

I ask all other sysops and users to give him a try, and try to welcome
him into the community.  I would like to ask those who have been
directly involved with dealing with his constant problem edits to
please just steer clear of him for awhile, and let Danny and Guanaco
or others try to mediate and deal with him.

Essentially, banning hasn't worked very well, because he's a
persistent problem.  Blocking him has been problematic because he
comes in on an AOL proxy, which blocks lots of other people.

This is a unique situation, and it warrants a unique experiment, and
we have people (Danny in particular) who have taken the lead in
volunteering to try something new.

--Jimbo


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"

body:
phil hunt wrote:

>> The very idea of Wikipedia, it seems to me, is to avoid the dominance
>> of any one group or person.
>
> I thought it was to create an encyclopedia.

Right, just another encyclopedia?

Christiaan


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Converting to UTF-code

body:
Hoi,
After analysing how to parse the text version of a GEMET list, I decided
to also have a look at the html code. The reason was that the Russian,
Bulgarian, Greek characters became unreadable.
The HTML can be read as well as the codes are changed to be in the
pre-UTF format (eg ыш etc). It can therefore be parsed,
eventually I could upload it to wiktionary. The question is how do I
convert it to UTF-8??

A question about the UTF-8 conversion, is it possible to have a bot
convert the non UTF-8 stuff to UTF-8 on en:wiktionary ??

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Rick

body:
Ok, and once we recognize it, what do we do about it?  Destroy our culture?  Overthrow our governments?  Wear hair shirts?  Make a mass move to the Third World?

RickK

Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at yurkycross.co.uk> wrote:
Exactly my point, thanks. And the more people that recognise it the
better.

Christiaan

On 3 Sep 2004, at 12:06 pm, Fred Bauder wrote:

> No. However, your points while well taken, point to the need for those
> who
> recognize the bias built in to the system to do what they can to
> counteract
> them. But there is simply no way we can provide internet access to
> those who
> languish in North Korean concentration camps or who live in traditional
> tribal African societies. Others must speak for them.
>
> Fred
>
>> From: Christiaan Briggs
>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia
>> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:39:46 +0100
>> To: English Wikipedia
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"
>>
>> phil hunt wrote:
>>
>>>> The very idea of Wikipedia, it seems to me, is to avoid the
>>>> dominance
>>>> of any one group or person.
>>>
>>> I thought it was to create an encyclopedia.
>>
>> Right, just another encyclopedia?
>>
>> Christiaan

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!


subject: [WikiEN-l] 'Michael' unbanned

body:
Has he apologized to Hephaestos?

RickK

"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
As an experiment, I am going to unban Michael and place him under the
mentorship of Danny and Guanaco, who will watch after him. He will
edit only under his new [[Mike Garcia]] account, and promises to make
only good edits.

I ask all other sysops and users to give him a try, and try to welcome
him into the community. I would like to ask those who have been
directly involved with dealing with his constant problem edits to
please just steer clear of him for awhile, and let Danny and Guanaco
or others try to mediate and deal with him.

Essentially, banning hasn't worked very well, because he's a
persistent problem. Blocking him has been problematic because he
comes in on an AOL proxy, which blocks lots of other people.

This is a unique situation, and it warrants a unique experiment, and
we have people (Danny in particular) who have taken the lead in
volunteering to try something new.

--Jimbo
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!


from_name: Chris Wood

body:
I really wasn't clear at all in that first post. I mean that articles and
categories should belong to *many* categories, rather than being in a strict
hierarchy. So in your example, put the author in all three categories -
Fantasy writers, SF writers and Horror writers.

--
Chris Wood


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Timwi wrote:

> Oh, sorry, I was in the clouds when I wrote that. Of course we want to
> cache finished pages.
>
> I was just thinking that once we have cachable parse trees, generating
> a page from it might not be as intensive and "bottlenecky" as currently.
>
Here's a thought:
* Have the article as XML (parse tree)
* Have the skin layout as another XML (say,
<topthingy><categories/></topthingy>)
* Have the skin style as CSS
* Profit! :-) (I mean, throw them together by parsing the skim XML tree,
then "collapse" it by replacing <articlebody/> with the XHTML article)

Skin XML could contain things like <sysop> with optional parts for
sysops (delete page etc.) which will be left out for non-sysops.
Also, for specific things like background images, there could be
<skin>backimage</skin>, where the "backimage" function of the skin class
is called.

Magnus


body:
No, but we do need to recognize the bias built into the system and
compensate for it as much as we are able. To bring it home, many millions
are incarcerated here in the United States in our own "Gulag". To the extent
posible, those who have some contact and knowledge of this situation need to
present "their side" of the story.

Fred

> From: Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Articles like "Violence against Israelis"
>
> Ok, and once we recognize it, what do we do about it?  Destroy our culture?
> Overthrow our governments?  Wear hair shirts?  Make a mass move to the Third
> World?
>
> RickK
>
> Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at yurkycross.co.uk> wrote:
> Exactly my point, thanks. And the more people that recognise it the
> better.
>
> Christiaan


body:
Krzysztof Kowalczyk wrote:

>Why not just use Lucene
>(http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene/docs/index.html) or one of its many
>ports?
>
>
>
<voice type=disgusted>Java! &ugh;</voice> ;-)


from_name: Med

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Converting to UTF-code

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> The HTML can be read as well as the codes are changed to be in the
> pre-UTF format (eg ыш etc). It can therefore be parsed,
> eventually I could upload it to wiktionary. The question is how do I
> convert it to UTF-8??

You can use the software i wrote to convert some wikis to utf-8 :
http://mboquien.free.fr/wikiconvert-20040902.tar.gz
Don't read the "README" file as it is completely outdated, i've to rewrite
it. The usage is simple : ./wikiconv -i input_file -o output_file -e
encoding_of_the_input_file. It needs Qt and it works fine under linux. Not
tried on other OS.

> A question about the UTF-8 conversion, is it possible to have a bot
> convert the non UTF-8 stuff to UTF-8 on en:wiktionary ??

It is also possible with the program but it would put the en wiktionary read
only during a few minutes, shaihulud is used to this kind of operations. I
use it quite often on fr:, but manually to convert some pages that contain
many utf-8 entities.

Med


subject: [WikiEN-l] Secretlondon's attacks on Jimbo Wales

body:
Secretlondon has decided to make public accusations against Jimbo Wales.  See http://www.livejournal.com/users/secretlondon/3206.html?view=8070#t8070

RickK

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