subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Hmm...

If it does, I can help with typing them in (if they're not already typed).

--node

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:25:23 +0200, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Le Tuesday 21 September 2004 19:08, Ray Saintonge a ?crit :
>
> > translated.  Tagore died in 1941, so his works are essentially all in
> > the public domain based on the life plus 60 law that prevails for India.
>
> I am not sure. Does this apply worldwide?
> If yes, I have some texts available for Wikisource.
>
> > Ec
>
>
>
> Yann
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
> http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Rick

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins....apparently contray
	to Blocking policy

body:
Zero's problem with you is that he claims that you are misrepresenting these people as being not who you say they are.  I disagree with his blocking you because he was involved in a dispute with you, but if it's true that you are not correctly identifying your sources, then blocking is a valid option.

RickK

Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com> wrote:
On the Refusal to serve in the Israeli military page,
Lance6Wins added the following:

Two Israeli journalists, Amos Harel of [[Haaretz]] and
a person from the Israel Broadcasting Agency, have
written a book in Hebrew entitled (in translation)
"The Seventh War". The book is based upon extensive
interview with [[Hamas]] leaders and others. In the
book the authors state that

:It was the Israeli left and your peace camp that
ultimately encouraged us to continue with our suicide
attacks.

:We tried, through our attacks, to create
fragmentation and dissention within Israeli society,
and the left-wing's reaction was proof that this was
indeed the right approach. When we heard about the
'Pilots' Letter' [written and publicized last year by
27 Israel Air Force pilots who refused to take part in
bombing missions against terrorist leaders in Arab
towns], and the elite soldiers who refused to serve
[in Judea, Samaria and Gaza], it strengthened those in
our camp who promoted the idea of suicide
bombers...[http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=68735]

Zero0000 has remove this twice, his only comment is
shown below.
11:36, 13 Sep 2004 Zero0000 (rv. the next time you
post Arutz Sheva crap I will block you.)

===Followup September 20th 2004===
Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins from Wikipedia.
[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy]] is defined. It
specifically states that unpopular opinions are not to
be blocked.
:===Unpopular opinions===

:Blocking may not be used to prevent a user from
posting unpopular opinions. A content dispute between
users should be settled on the article's talk page or
on their own user talk pages. If it cannot be resolved
that way, there is a clearly defined dispute
resolution procedure to resolve contentious issues.
See [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution]] for more.

Do blocks such as those constitute
[[Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator abuse]]?

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subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins....apparently
	contray to Blocking policy

body:
Jimmy, you need to know the whole history of the case.

RickK

"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
It is for the arbcom to be decided, but based on the content of this
email, it is clear to me that zero should be desysopped.

zero 0000 wrote:

> "Harry Smith" (aka OneVoice, Lance6Wins, Abu Ala) wrote:
> > On the Refusal to serve in the Israeli military page,
> > Lance6Wins added the following:
> >
> > Two Israeli journalists, Amos Harel of [[Haaretz]] and
> > a person from the Israel Broadcasting Agency, have
> > written a book in Hebrew entitled (in translation)
> > "The Seventh War". The book is based upon extensive
> > interview with [[Hamas]] leaders and others. In the
> > book the authors state that
> >
> > : It was the Israeli left
> > : ...
> > : [http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=68735]
>
> This person has been before the Arbitration Committee
> for almost two months.
>
> Meanwhile, I have the right (some would say duty as
> a sysop) to continue to protect Wikipedia from
> vandalism. In the present case, note the dishonest claim
> that the material is from a book when it is actually from a
> TV interview. (It might turn out to be in the book too, but
> nobody here has actually seen the book.) Moreover, the
> report on the TV interview is from the extreme-right pirate
> radio station Arutz Sheva which is notorious for its lack
> of journalistic standards. Lance6Wins is entirely aware
> of all this and it was not necessary to explain it all again
> for the umpteenth time. We are not discussing a newbie
> here, but an experienced fanatical POV pusher.
>
> I believe that my action in blocking him for 48 hours,
> after issuing a warning, was justified.
> Some will agree with me and some will disagree; I know
> that but when the chips are down I have to take the
> course of action which is in the interests of Wikipedia
> as best as I can judge it.
>
> --Zero.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
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> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
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from_name: Harry Smith

body:
The material is a __direct quote__ from one of the two
authors of the book "The Seventh War".  I prefer to
add direct quotes to Wikipedia with references to the
source material.  Direct quotes are exactly what they
are; not an intrepretation of what someone said or
meant to say.

Lance6Wins

--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Zero's problem with you is that he claims that you
> are misrepresenting these people as being not who
> you say they are.  I disagree with his blocking you
> because he was involved in a dispute with you, but
> if it's true that you are not correctly identifying
> your sources, then blocking is a valid option.
>
> RickK
>
> Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On the Refusal to serve in the Israeli military
> page,
> Lance6Wins added the following:
>
> Two Israeli journalists, Amos Harel of [[Haaretz]]
> and
> a person from the Israel Broadcasting Agency, have
> written a book in Hebrew entitled (in translation)
> "The Seventh War". The book is based upon extensive
> interview with [[Hamas]] leaders and others. In the
> book the authors state that
>
> :It was the Israeli left and your peace camp that
> ultimately encouraged us to continue with our
> suicide
> attacks.
>
> :We tried, through our attacks, to create
> fragmentation and dissention within Israeli society,
> and the left-wing's reaction was proof that this was
> indeed the right approach. When we heard about the
> 'Pilots' Letter' [written and publicized last year
> by
> 27 Israel Air Force pilots who refused to take part
> in
> bombing missions against terrorist leaders in Arab
> towns], and the elite soldiers who refused to serve
> [in Judea, Samaria and Gaza], it strengthened those
> in
> our camp who promoted the idea of suicide
>
bombers...[http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=68735]
>
> Zero0000 has remove this twice, his only comment is
> shown below.
> 11:36, 13 Sep 2004 Zero0000 (rv. the next time you
> post Arutz Sheva crap I will block you.)
>
> ===Followup September 20th 2004===
> Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins from Wikipedia.
> [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy]] is defined. It
> specifically states that unpopular opinions are not
> to
> be blocked.
> :===Unpopular opinions===
>
> :Blocking may not be used to prevent a user from
> posting unpopular opinions. A content dispute
> between
> users should be settled on the article's talk page
> or
> on their own user talk pages. If it cannot be
> resolved
> that way, there is a clearly defined dispute
> resolution procedure to resolve contentious issues.
> See [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution]] for more.
>
> Do blocks such as those constitute
> [[Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator abuse]]?
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
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>

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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:38:56 -0400 "James R. Johnson" <modean52 at comcast.net>
wrote:
>I thought it would be created also...there was quite a bit of support when
>I
>originally proposed the idea, and then everyone started talking about
>Chinese and Gothic.  The only reason I heard against it is that someone
>didn't feel like it.  But, what about all the wikis with less than 10
>articles?  Looks like they don't feel like it either.
>
>I looked, and the Afar, Armenian, Assamese, Aymara, Bashkir, Bengali,
>Bhojpuri, Bislama, Burmese, Dzongkha, Fijian, Georgian, Greenlandic,
>Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Kazakh, Khmer, Kyrgiz, Lao, Lojban, Quechua,
>Manx, Nepali, Oriya, Oromo, Panjabi, Pashtu, Rumansh, Sardinian, Setswana,
>Somali, Sindhi, Sotho, Tajik, Telugu, Tibetan, Tongan, Tsonga, Turkmen,
>Twi,
>Uighur, and Xhosa have 10 or fewer articles.  Are those who thought little
>of Gothic or Anglo-Saxon going to look again at those wikis?
>
>Just a thought.

No, I don't see these cases as similar at all. All these languages, perhaps
with a few exceptions, are for some people their preferred language of
communication. Thus, there is a *potential* for a blooming Wikipedia in
those; it happens to be the case that we haven't attracted any Wikipedians
working on them yet, but chances are high that at some point there will be
people interested in reading and writing them.

On the other hand, for Anglo-Saxon or Gothic, there are people who are able
to read and write it, but I have not been convinced yet that there are
people who prefer to read their encyclopedia in those languages, nor that
people would write them in an attempt to spread information rather than for
novelty value.

Andre Engels


from_name: Evan Prodromou

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:

> Another option would be to pay for private hosting and set up the
> MediaWiki software yourself, which I can tell you is not going to be
> very pleasant if you're not experienced in setting up server-side
> apps.

MediaWiki is definitely _not_ the only game in town as far as wiki engines are
concerned. PmWiki and PhpWiki are both very easy to install and run on PHP
servers without needing a database.

Really, setting up a wiki isn't much harder than setting up a static Web site.
And it's sure a lot more dignified than groveling at the feet of some admin
begging for a few minutes of his time. B-)

~ESP

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from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

body:
Rick wrote:
> Zero's problem with you is that he claims that you are
>misrepresenting these people as being not who you say they are.  I
>disagree with his blocking you because he was involved in a dispute
>with you, but if it's true that you are not correctly identifying your
>sources, then blocking is a valid option.

Absolutely it is not a valid option for someone who is involved in
editing the article.  The first and foremost cardinal rule of ethics
for sysop powers is that you must never ever use them to win a dispute
about content.  If we allowed that, it would be the end of NPOV and
the beginning of SPOV (sysop point of view).

--Jimbo


body:
Harry Smith wrote:
> Thank you for your support in this matter.
>
> I have asked the ArbCom to examine they matter and
> take appropriate action.

I take no position at the moment on whether or not you should have
been blocked -- it does not sound like it to me, but I have not
investigated.  What I think it is safe to say is that anyone who is
involved in an edit dispute on an article must _never_ use sysop
powers to win that argument.

A safe course of action for Zero would have been to consult with other
sysops, and have someone else do it if it was within the rules of
blocking.

--Jimbo


body:
Rick wrote:
> Jimmy, you need to know the whole history of the case.

In order to know if Lance should have been blocked by someone, yes, I
would need to know the full history of the case.  But we have a
cardinal rule, that goes all the way back to the existence of sysop
powers in the first place, that they must never be used in a dispute
over content that we are personally involved in.

If you think we get silly complaints now about sysop abuse, just
imagine what it would be like if we let sysops win arguments over
content by blocking people who disagree.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] [Barry.Meatyard@warwick.ac.uk: Entry in Wikipedia]

body:
----- Forwarded message from Barry Meatyard <Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk> -----

From: "Barry Meatyard" <Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:04:35 +0100
To: <jwales at bomis.com>
Subject: Entry in Wikipedia

Dear Mr Wales,

Our attention has recently been drawn to an entry for the National Academy on 'Wikipedia'.

The National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth is an English government agency and part of the national education system.

We are aware that the entry was initiated by a 16 year old Academy student with a less than complete knowledge of the Academy's remit. Subsequently a number of edits have been made by even younger students and we accept that some of these are getting the entry closer to reality. However we would be interested to know the level of editorial control beyond these edits. For example who removed the adverse comment (merely a student's perception) dated 30 Aug? Is this done by Wikipedia staff - and if so how are 1 million plus articles policed?

We would be happy to rewrite the entry to enable it to reflect more accurately the remit and contractual obligations of the Academy, which of course would be entirely factual as befits an objective encyclopedia. However we need to be reassured that such objectivity is not compromised by the facility for those who may have a skewed perspective to air it in public.

Whilst for some entries it may be interesting to see the evolution of an entry, (as a professional botanist I was fascinated by the development of some of the plant focused entries), the fact that potentially damaging and inaccurate comments remain in the 'history' thread is of concern to us as a publicly funded body. You will appreciate that we are not convinced that a collegiate approach to evolving a definition for a government agency of which there may be a variety of subjective impressions is appropriate.

At this stage we are seeking reassurance with respect to the editorial policy of the site and to request whether inaccurate and potentially damaging entries can be removed from the history.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours,

Barry

Dr. Barry Meatyard
Director of Student Services
National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth
University of Warwick
Coventry
CV4 7AL
UK
Tel: 44 (0) 24 76 574483

----- End forwarded message -----

--
"La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Recording sound in the .ogg format

body:
Hoi,
I want to record some audio stuff for use within wiktionary. Ogg is the
format that is recommended. What Windows software can I use to record in
the ogg format ??

When I have .wav files how can they be converted to ogg ??

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
>Sicilian language.
>
>Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet connectivity.
>
>I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
>
Your fluency in traditional Chinese, Gothic, and now Sicilian is a
remarkable feat that few of us can duplicate.  In the absence of such
abilities I would tend to suggest that we wait for a request to be made
by those who would like to work in Sicilian.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] En-GB/en-US syntax

body:
Domas Mituzas wrote:
> Do you imagine how all that en-gb/en-us stuff appears from
>international point of view?

I wonder about it, yes.  My own perspective is that en-gb is more
international, save for local British slang, and that en-us is
peculiar to the US, save for American slang being known everywhere
due to our movies.

--Jimbo


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

body:
On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 12:20:44PM +0200, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> I want to record some audio stuff for use within wiktionary. Ogg is the
> format that is recommended. What Windows software can I use to record in
> the ogg format ??

I'd suggest Adacity which runs on Windows, Linux and Mac.
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

ciao, tom
--
== Weblinks ==
* http://shop.wikipedia.org - WikiReader Internet zu kaufen
* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
* http://www.hammererlehen.de - Urlaub in Berchtesgaden


subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?

body:
As you describe in programming, a stub is a
development construct.  With concurrent development by
more than one programmer working together toward a
common goal, user "Zero0000" may create a stub, which
is expanded upon by user "Lance6Wins" and brought to
release quality by user "Viajero".   The process may
be iterative and each may add at various times.

Seems to map very well to the concept of stubs in
Wikipedia.

Lance6Wins.

(names chosen totally at random by "the Forlorn Hope".
  hmmm...do we have a wikipedia page on "the forlorn
hope"? bit of british army history there.)

--- dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:

> I have some guesses about the evolution of the
> "stub" concept on Wikipedia
> and am seeking information from oldtimers as to
> whether my guesses are right.
>
> I first encountered the word "stub" in a technical
> context. About the time I
> started hearing about "top-down programming," which
> would have been, um, the
> 1980s, I also started hearing about "stubs."
>
> When you are following the top-down methodology, you
> often encounter a
> situation where subroutine A calls (and hence
> depends on) subroutine B. Yet
> you want to write and test A before B is written.
>
> For example, subroutine A might call subroutine B to
> find out whether a
> device is ready before trying to output to it.
> Subroutine B is
> absolutely vital to the finished program, but for
> purposes of writing and
> testing A you just write a "stub" version of B which
> doesn't actually talk to
> the device, but just says "the device is ready."
>
> In this context, a stub is a piece of temporary
> scaffolding that is put in
> place solely to allow work to proceed, which is not
> a part of the finished
> product, and which must be removed and replaced with
> the real subroutine
> before the product is released.
>
> I fantasize that it is a couple of years ago, and
> that there are enormous
> numbers of articles that anyone can see need to be
> written, and that I have
> decided to write about (say) echinoderms. As I start
> to write, say, an
> article on "Echinodermata," I realize that I will
> eventually want to write
> and link to Asteroidea, Echinoidea, etc. So I create
> stubs for these, with
> two things in mind. First, I have at least some
> intention of going back and
> actually writing those articles. Second, I know that
> there are other people
> who know as much or more than I do about
> echinoderms, and may prefer to write
> the article on Asteroidea myself rather than waiting
> for me to do it.
>
> So the stub serves _three_ purposes: a reminder to
> everyone that there's an
> article that needs to be written, an implied
> statement that I sort of plan to
> write that article when I get around to it, and an
> implied invitation to
> others that if they feel like working on this
> _before_ I can get around to
> it, they should just jump in.
>
> I notice that "The Perfect Stub" clearly presents
> stubs in the context of an
> intention by the creator of the stub to continue
> personally working on
> expanding the stub. It seems to suggest that the
> expected timeframe for
> this expansion is a few weeks; that is, it should
> reasonably expected that
> the stub contributor will keep nibbling away, adding
> small accretions to the
> stub, and that if a few weeks have elapsed and
> nobody else has taken on the
> job of writing the article the stub creator should
> assume that nobody else is
> going to, and they should write the article
> themselves.
>
> Part and parcel of this viewpoint is that a stub is
> not useful in itself. As
> with the programmer's stub, it is just a temporary
> expedient to allow work to
> continue, and must be replaced with a real article
> before "release."
>
> Does this imaginary view of mine correspond to an
> historically correct
> description of the mindset with which stubs were
> viewed a couple of years
> ago?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Question, when did I claim fluency in Gothic?

--node

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:21:30 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> >Sicilian language.
> >
> >Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet connectivity.
> >
> >I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> >
> Your fluency in traditional Chinese, Gothic, and now Sicilian is a
> remarkable feat that few of us can duplicate.  In the absence of such
> abilities I would tend to suggest that we wait for a request to be made
> by those who would like to work in Sicilian.
>
> Ec
>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Le Tuesday 21 September 2004 19:08, Ray Saintonge a ?crit :
>
>
>>translated.  Tagore died in 1941, so his works are essentially all in
>>the public domain based on the life plus 60 law that prevails for India.
>>
>>
>I am not sure. Does this apply worldwide?
>If yes, I have some texts available for Wikisource.
>
>
For the relevant Indian law see
http://www.naukri.com/lls/copyright/section5.htm#22

For the relationship to US law see [[Itar-Tass Russian News Agency v.
Russian Kurier, Inc.]] in Wikipedia.

Ec


from_name: anon anon

subject: [WikiEN-l] A few common sense suggestions for election day

body: If this policy is followed should it cover all elections in all countries?


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Lance vs. Zero = Rather vs. Bush

body:
Why does this remind me of Dan Rather claiming that the admittedly fake
memos contained true information? ... Or of Clinton saying "the answer I
gave was untrue but legally correct?"

We have to start banning people who put accurate information in
Wikipedia, if we can't prove they copied it correctly from the source.
Or that they wrote it themselves, or that the prunes are in the
shinbone, or -- arrrgh!

It's all too weird for me, man....

Cousin Eddie


from_name: Sj

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Starting a new wiki

body:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:44:39 +1000, Tim Starling
<ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> In fact, I'll happily create
> any wiki if the potential contributors agree in advance to use a
> language file which is already mature, and that you refrain from
> requesting interface customisations which require developer attention.

This seems like a reasonable suggestion for most of the languages under debate.
The tiny langs with no articles in them often have the default english
interface and logo, which doesn't keep people from starting to develop
content...

--
+sj+


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?

body:
The expressed problem with stubs was that they show up as an article which
has already been written, yet when you click on the blue link like to
[[Tucson, Arizona]] all you get is "Tucson, Arizona is a large city in
southern [[Arizona]]. It was felt to be misleading and a potential
disappointment to users. It was felt that an empty link, which showed up in
red rather than blue was better.

I always thought that was all nonsense.

Fred

> From: <dpbsmith at verizon.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:04:19 -0500
> To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?
>
> I have some guesses about the evolution of the "stub" concept on Wikipedia
> and am seeking information from oldtimers as to whether my guesses are right.
>
> I first encountered the word "stub" in a technical context. About the time I
> started hearing about "top-down programming," which would have been, um, the
> 1980s, I also started hearing about "stubs."
>
> When you are following the top-down methodology, you often encounter a
> situation where subroutine A calls (and hence depends on) subroutine B. Yet
> you want to write and test A before B is written.
>
> For example, subroutine A might call subroutine B to find out whether a
> device is ready before trying to output to it. Subroutine B is
> absolutely vital to the finished program, but for purposes of writing and
> testing A you just write a "stub" version of B which doesn't actually talk to
> the device, but just says "the device is ready."
>
> In this context, a stub is a piece of temporary scaffolding that is put in
> place solely to allow work to proceed, which is not a part of the finished
> product, and which must be removed and replaced with the real subroutine
> before the product is released.
>
> I fantasize that it is a couple of years ago, and that there are enormous
> numbers of articles that anyone can see need to be written, and that I have
> decided to write about (say) echinoderms. As I start to write, say, an
> article on "Echinodermata," I realize that I will eventually want to write
> and link to Asteroidea, Echinoidea, etc. So I create stubs for these, with
> two things in mind. First, I have at least some intention of going back and
> actually writing those articles. Second, I know that there are other people
> who know as much or more than I do about echinoderms, and may prefer to write
> the article on Asteroidea myself rather than waiting for me to do it.
>
> So the stub serves _three_ purposes: a reminder to everyone that there's an
> article that needs to be written, an implied statement that I sort of plan to
> write that article when I get around to it, and an implied invitation to
> others that if they feel like working on this _before_ I can get around to
> it, they should just jump in.
>
> I notice that "The Perfect Stub" clearly presents stubs in the context of an
> intention by the creator of the stub to continue personally working on
> expanding the stub. It seems to suggest that the expected timeframe for
> this expansion is a few weeks; that is, it should reasonably expected that
> the stub contributor will keep nibbling away, adding small accretions to the
> stub, and that if a few weeks have elapsed and nobody else has taken on the
> job of writing the article the stub creator should assume that nobody else is
> going to, and they should write the article themselves.
>
> Part and parcel of this viewpoint is that a stub is not useful in itself. As
> with the programmer's stub, it is just a temporary expedient to allow work to
> continue, and must be replaced with a real article before "release."
>
> Does this imaginary view of mine correspond to an historically correct
> description of the mindset with which stubs were viewed a couple of years
> ago?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Delirium

body:
zero 0000 wrote:

>Meanwhile, I have the right (some would say duty as
>a sysop) to continue to protect Wikipedia from
>vandalism.  In the present case, note the dishonest claim
>that the material is from a book when it is actually from a
>TV interview.  (It might turn out to be in the book too, but
>nobody here has actually seen the book.)
>
>
That's an odd position---you say he's making a dishonest claim that the
material is from a book, yet you have not actually checked whether it's
in the book or not?  How do you know it's dishonest then?

-Mark


from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?

body:
I have some guesses about the evolution of the "stub" concept on Wikipedia
and am seeking information from oldtimers as to whether my guesses are right.

I first encountered the word "stub" in a technical context. About the time I
started hearing about "top-down programming," which would have been, um, the
1980s, I also started hearing about "stubs."

When you are following the top-down methodology, you often encounter a
situation where subroutine A calls (and hence depends on) subroutine B. Yet
you want to write and test A before B is written.

For example, subroutine A might call subroutine B to find out whether a
device is ready before trying to output to it. Subroutine B is
absolutely vital to the finished program, but for purposes of writing and
testing A you just write a "stub" version of B which doesn't actually talk to
the device, but just says "the device is ready."

In this context, a stub is a piece of temporary scaffolding that is put in
place solely to allow work to proceed, which is not a part of the finished
product, and which must be removed and replaced with the real subroutine
before the product is released.

I fantasize that it is a couple of years ago, and that there are enormous
numbers of articles that anyone can see need to be written, and that I have
decided to write about (say) echinoderms. As I start to write, say, an
article on "Echinodermata," I realize that I will eventually want to write
and link to Asteroidea, Echinoidea, etc. So I create stubs for these, with
two things in mind. First, I have at least some intention of going back and
actually writing those articles. Second, I know that there are other people
who know as much or more than I do about echinoderms, and may prefer to write
the article on Asteroidea myself rather than waiting for me to do it.

So the stub serves _three_ purposes: a reminder to everyone that there's an
article that needs to be written, an implied statement that I sort of plan to
write that article when I get around to it, and an implied invitation to
others that if they feel like working on this _before_ I can get around to
it, they should just jump in.

I notice that "The Perfect Stub" clearly presents stubs in the context of an
intention by the creator of the stub to continue personally working on
expanding the stub. It seems to suggest that the expected timeframe for
this expansion is a few weeks; that is, it should reasonably expected that
the stub contributor will keep nibbling away, adding small accretions to the
stub, and that if a few weeks have elapsed and nobody else has taken on the
job of writing the article the stub creator should assume that nobody else is
going to, and they should write the article themselves.

Part and parcel of this viewpoint is that a stub is not useful in itself. As
with the programmer's stub, it is just a temporary expedient to allow work to
continue, and must be replaced with a real article before "release."

Does this imaginary view of mine correspond to an historically correct
description of the mindset with which stubs were viewed a couple of years
ago?


body:
There are plenty of Sicilian-language websites online, in fact there
are more than there are for Sardinian which is much much much more
different from standard Italian.

As far as how its written, see http://www.linguasiciliana.org/lsu.htm
(lingua siciliana unificata).

There are more books available in Sicilian than there are in Sardinian
as well, including a few translations of popular literature. Also,
Sicilian is, along with Italian, a co-official language of the
Sicilian autonomous region of Italy.

--node

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:44:07 +0200 (MEST), Alfio Puglisi
<puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>
> AFAIK, sicilian today has been blended a lot with Italian. The average
> sicilian hears Italian on television and writes in italian, not sicilian.
> I'm sure most of them have no idea of how Sicilian is written (I have no
> idea myself, but that doesn't count). It's not taught in schools, it's
> mostly oral tradition.
>
> Alfio
>
>
>
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, James R. Johnson wrote:
>
> >Cool.  How is Sicilian related to Italian and French?
> >
> >James
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> >[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:21 PM
> >To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> >Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> >Sicilian language.
> >
> >Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
> >connectivity.
> >
> >I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> >
> >best,
> >node
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Starting a new wiki

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Oh, also there is the additional option of setting up shop at a
> Wikipedia that has had little or no action. This is *not* something I
>  would encourage! Please exhaust all other options first. Depending
> on which language you choose though, it could take a very short time
>  or a very long time for anybody to realise what you're doing. And if
>  you can round up a good sized group of contributors, and you get up
> a sizable number of articles, when you *are* eventually found out
> there is a good chance the content will be kept, but moved to a
> different subdomain (most likely ang:).
>

I don't mind if people squat on empty wikis, since their secrecy means
that they won't be able to request help writing language files, or to
ask for help in making interlanguage links. In fact, I'll happily create
any wiki if the potential contributors agree in advance to use a
language file which is already mature, and that you refrain from
requesting interface customisations which require developer attention.

If that seems like a bizarre rule, then maybe you should re-read my
posts, where I have repeatedly attempted to explain my objection.

James R. Johnson wrote:
> I thought it would be created also...there was quite a bit of support
>  when I originally proposed the idea, and then everyone started
> talking about Chinese and Gothic.  The only reason I heard against it
>  is that someone didn't feel like it.  But, what about all the wikis
> with less than 10 articles?  Looks like they don't feel like it
> either.

Same goes for you, unless you can convince one of the other developers
to set this up. I find it hard to believe that I'm in this situation,
that I'm the only one willing to even talk about setting up these wikis.
It puts me in a situation of power that I'm not asking for. But if
that's how it has to be, then I guess we have to talk about a compromise.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Christopher Mahan

body:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> A safe course of action for Zero would have been to consult with
> other
> sysops, and have someone else do it if it was within the rules of
> blocking.

Is there a utility to find out who the other sysops are that are
logged in and active at any point in time, so that in the event
described above, it would be relatively easy to get a couple sysops
involved before the situation get out of hand?

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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from_name: James R. Johnson

body:
Cool.  How is Sicilian related to Italian and French?

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:21 PM
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia

Hi all,

The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
Sicilian language.

Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
connectivity.

I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.

best,
node
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


body:
I tried Chinese, but didn't get too far.  I stuck with Anglo-Saxon, German,
French, Latin, and English.  I'm best in German and Anglo-Saxon (speaking,
writing), then French, then Latin.  English is my first language.  How 'bout
you, node?

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ray Saintonge
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 3:22 PM
To: Mark Williamson; wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia

Mark Williamson wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
>Sicilian language.
>
>Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
connectivity.
>
>I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
>
Your fluency in traditional Chinese, Gothic, and now Sicilian is a
remarkable feat that few of us can duplicate.  In the absence of such
abilities I would tend to suggest that we wait for a request to be made
by those who would like to work in Sicilian.

Ec

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


body:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
Forwarded email from
> <Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk> -----
> ...However we would be interested to know the level
> of editorial control beyond these edits. For example who removed
> the adverse comment (merely a student's perception) dated 30 Aug?
> Is this done by Wikipedia staff - and if so how are 1 million plus
> articles policed?

There is no wikipedia staff.

This is the wikiway: People write stuff and more people correct,
mold, copyedit, verify, and add to it.

That is how the 1 million plus articles are bettered over time.

> We would be happy to rewrite the entry

Great, please do.

> At this stage we are seeking reassurance with respect to the
> editorial policy of the site and to request whether inaccurate and
> potentially damaging entries can be removed from the history.

Unfortunately, that is not the wikiway.
While we understand that your institution may feel a need to control
the image the public at large may have of it, it is not the wikiway
to tell people what opinions they should hold, but rather to give
them balanced and unbiased information upon which they may draw to
form their own conclusions and views.

Jimbo,

This may be something that needs to be addressed by the W as a whole.
I think that having 5 or 6 wikipedians email the man independently
would confuse him rather than anything. If there a place where
"answers" to letters can be edited by the group? And the recipient
directed there?

I suggest this because I see this sort of letter will become more
common, and that we might want to not reinvent the wheel with each
letter.

my 2 cents.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Recording sound in the .ogg format

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> I want to record some audio stuff for use within wiktionary. Ogg is the
> format that is recommended. What Windows software can I use to record in
> the ogg format ??
>
> When I have .wav files how can they be converted to ogg ??
>
> Thanks,
>    GerardM

Hello Gerard,

Have a look at this list:
    http://www.vorbis.com/software.psp?pid=2

I personally like OggDropXPd (drag'n drop files and blam they are encoded).

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikitech-l] En-GB/en-US syntax

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>Domas Mituzas wrote:
>
>
>>Do you imagine how all that en-gb/en-us stuff appears from
>>international point of view?
>>
>>
>
>I wonder about it, yes.  My own perspective is that en-gb is more
>international, save for local British slang, and that en-us is
>peculiar to the US, save for American slang being known everywhere
>due to our movies.
>
>
Well, it really seems to be regional, and is likely to fluctuate a lot
in the near future.  I'm unable to find any good censuses (do such
things even exist?), but from my admittedly limited experience, it seems
en-us is more common as a second language in Asia than en-gb is, partly
due to the influence of US media, and partly due to the fact that there
are more Americans travelling there on 1-2-year assignments to teach
English-language classes than there are people from en-gb countries.

However, there doesn't really seem to be a lot of difference between the
two dialects in international usage, beyond some trivial spelling issues
(colour/color and sabre/saber).  The real dialect part of the language
is almost always local---whether they spell things "colour" or "color",
the en-gb and en-us English-speakers in Greece, for example, write more
like each other than they write like either UKians or USians.

And FWIW, I agree it's not really worth the effort.  Anything that's not
mutually intelligible isn't generally used in international English anyway.

-Mark


from_name: Richard Gould

subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?

body:
I agree with you on that. One possible solution may be to colourize
links to stub articles the same colour as links to articles that don't
exist.

Richard

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:55:53 -0600, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> The expressed problem with stubs was that they show up as an article which
> has already been written, yet when you click on the blue link like to
> [[Tucson, Arizona]] all you get is "Tucson, Arizona is a large city in
> southern [[Arizona]]. It was felt to be misleading and a potential
> disappointment to users. It was felt that an empty link, which showed up in
> red rather than blue was better.
>
> I always thought that was all nonsense.
>
> Fred
>
> > From: <dpbsmith at verizon.net>
> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:04:19 -0500
> > To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?
>
>
> >
> > I have some guesses about the evolution of the "stub" concept on Wikipedia
> > and am seeking information from oldtimers as to whether my guesses are right.
> >
> > I first encountered the word "stub" in a technical context. About the time I
> > started hearing about "top-down programming," which would have been, um, the
> > 1980s, I also started hearing about "stubs."
> >
> > When you are following the top-down methodology, you often encounter a
> > situation where subroutine A calls (and hence depends on) subroutine B. Yet
> > you want to write and test A before B is written.
> >
> > For example, subroutine A might call subroutine B to find out whether a
> > device is ready before trying to output to it. Subroutine B is
> > absolutely vital to the finished program, but for purposes of writing and
> > testing A you just write a "stub" version of B which doesn't actually talk to
> > the device, but just says "the device is ready."
> >
> > In this context, a stub is a piece of temporary scaffolding that is put in
> > place solely to allow work to proceed, which is not a part of the finished
> > product, and which must be removed and replaced with the real subroutine
> > before the product is released.
> >
> > I fantasize that it is a couple of years ago, and that there are enormous
> > numbers of articles that anyone can see need to be written, and that I have
> > decided to write about (say) echinoderms. As I start to write, say, an
> > article on "Echinodermata," I realize that I will eventually want to write
> > and link to Asteroidea, Echinoidea, etc. So I create stubs for these, with
> > two things in mind. First, I have at least some intention of going back and
> > actually writing those articles. Second, I know that there are other people
> > who know as much or more than I do about echinoderms, and may prefer to write
> > the article on Asteroidea myself rather than waiting for me to do it.
> >
> > So the stub serves _three_ purposes: a reminder to everyone that there's an
> > article that needs to be written, an implied statement that I sort of plan to
> > write that article when I get around to it, and an implied invitation to
> > others that if they feel like working on this _before_ I can get around to
> > it, they should just jump in.
> >
> > I notice that "The Perfect Stub" clearly presents stubs in the context of an
> > intention by the creator of the stub to continue personally working on
> > expanding the stub. It seems to suggest that the expected timeframe for
> > this expansion is a few weeks; that is, it should reasonably expected that
> > the stub contributor will keep nibbling away, adding small accretions to the
> > stub, and that if a few weeks have elapsed and nobody else has taken on the
> > job of writing the article the stub creator should assume that nobody else is
> > going to, and they should write the article themselves.
> >
> > Part and parcel of this viewpoint is that a stub is not useful in itself. As
> > with the programmer's stub, it is just a temporary expedient to allow work to
> > continue, and must be replaced with a real article before "release."
> >
> > Does this imaginary view of mine correspond to an historically correct
> > description of the mindset with which stubs were viewed a couple of years
> > ago?
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Request for a new Wikipedia

body:
I could probably get some together, but why is that nessecary? Most of
the Wikipedias we have started with one or two users. The Cornish Wiki
is growing at a very surprising pace, and it only has two editors.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:30:16 +0200, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Do you have perhaps 5 editors able to write and read sicilian AND
> interested in starting that wikipedia ?
>
> ant
>
> Mark Williamson a ?crit:
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> > Sicilian language.
> >
> > Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet connectivity.
> >
> > I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> >
> > best,
> > node
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?

body:
--- Richard Gould <rwgould at gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree with you on that. One possible solution may be to colourize
> links to stub articles the same colour as links to articles that
> don't
> exist.

I would be careful about that. There are many articles that are
marked as stubs that actually have good content, but they could be
larger.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?

body:
Indeed.  'Stub' is not being used to refer to pages that are purely
placeholders.  It is also being used for articles that, while short
and substantially incomplete, do inform.  It's a marker that the
information is not complete.

People tend to use the term 'substub' for 'little better than a blank
article', but there is no universally agreed on template for that.

-Matt


from_name: nospam at mussenbrock.de

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Diderot 0.1 - First alpha release available on
	sourceforge.net

body:
The first 0.1 alpha release for the Diderot wikiwriter has been released
today:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/wikiwriter

Be sure to get your copy right now!

This version comes in english, but categorys are in german, I apologize.
Language files will be supplied in the near future. People volunteering
for translation of the user interface are welcome, please mail to
wikiwiki at vr-web.de.

Please note that this is an alpha release and comes without any
warranty. There *are* bugs. But I'm rather sure it won't crash your
system :-).

Bug reports and feature requests are welcome, please use the Sourceforge
Trackers.

The package comes as a self-extracting windows installer.
After installing, please edit the settings in the Options | Set Options
menu. At least you have to select your preferred language, and set your
Wikipedia username and password. After this the editor will try to log
into Wikipedia. Only if this succeeds, you will be able to edit pages.

There is no documentation till now, but everything should be fairly
self-explaining.

Enjoy!

Shannon


body:
--- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Actually, we can accurately be much more polite than this.

That's why I replied here.

> If you as an expert in a particular field -- for instance, as the
> possessor of the formal documents describint an institution's
> scope,
> mandate, and resources -- come with facts and references to back up
> your statements, and write a good and balanced description of your
> organization, there is a body of editors who will preserve your
> contributions in proportion to their balance and precision.

Exactly.

> Many of these will be people with no interest in the subject matter
> at
> hand, who will watch edits to that page only in order to moderate
> the
> article's development.

Yes.

> Indeed, direct editing by an agency is an unusual enough event that
> I
> think a number of NPOV experts would drop in on the article to join
> in
> the discussion / community moderation of its development.  It is
> not
> the case that people with idiosyncratic views can add whatever
> unsubstantiated opinions they want to articles, and we should be
> very
> clear about this fact when explaining the wiki way on Wikipedia
> (note
> that this is not the wiki way everywhere...).

I think that would be a good experiment for that agency to see the
wikiprocess in action. And yes, I get your comment about our wikiway
not being universal.

>  > This may be something that needs to be addressed by the W as a
> whole.
> > I think that having 5 or 6 wikipedians email the man
> independently
> > would confuse him rather than anything. If there a place where
> > "answers" to letters can be edited by the group? And the
> recipient
> > directed there?
>
> Please see  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR .
> That page was created to deal with responses to the media, but it
> can
> probably handle collaborative responses to letters / feedback as
> well.

That would be good. Thanks for the link.

>
> > I suggest this because I see this sort of letter will become more
> > common, and that we might want to not reinvent the wheel with
> each
> > letter.
>
> Quite right, and the responses we send to individuals like this
> will
> likely come up in articles about us in the future.

And we dont' want those to kick us in the left buttock... :)

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki

body:
Hi,

Le Tuesday 21 September 2004 19:08, Ray Saintonge a ?crit :

> translated.  Tagore died in 1941, so his works are essentially all in
> the public domain based on the life plus 60 law that prevails for India.

I am not sure. Does this apply worldwide?
If yes, I have some texts available for Wikisource.

> Ec

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] [Barry.Meatyard@warwick.ac.uk: Entry in  Wikipedia]

body:
At 01:39 AM 9/22/2004 +0200, Jens Ropers wrote:

>Maybe we should just send these guys this link [
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
>title=National_Academy_for_Gifted_and_Talented_Youth&action=edit ] and
>tell them to work away.
>
>Wouldn't that be a near-perfect solution?
>What do people think?

It wouldn't be a perfect solution in this case, because in addition to
simply inquiring about how editing is done Barry is also asking for the
removal of certain versions from the article history and for the version
that their representative writes to be "protected" in some way. We need to
explain both that we can't comply with those requests, and also that those
things won't actually be necessary in order to get a nicely neutral article
written and maintained against POV.

Personally, I'd recommend to them that they add an external link to their
own "about us" page (to reassure them that they'll always have a way to
present themselves according to their own terms) and to make copious use of
the talk: page to explain and attribute any corrections they make to the
article itself so that future editors will have a better idea of which
information comes from which sources (while also pointing out that talk:
pages have different community standards than article text, so that what
they write there is pretty much immune from "tampering"). That's still no
guarantee that the article will remain in the form that they prefer, but
the information they add will hopefully be authoritative enough that it'll
be hard to replace with inaccuracies in the future. Other editors will much
more easily notice biases creeping back in if there's notes in talk: to
work from.


body:
Apparently these must be removed by hand by a developer.

Fred

> From: Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com>, English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:34:28 -0400
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] [Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk: Entry in Wikipedia]
>
> As for the request to remove things from the article history, what is
> wikipedia policy there regard wrt. libel?  Are libelous statements
> removed from article histories?  Apparently libelous statements,
> before a court has judged them as such?
> --
> +sj+
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Not yet, but I can think of two easy ways to get such information:
from the last edit by a user, and from their last page-view.

It would be nice to be able to identify groups of users and find out
when they were last active.
(This feature should probably require some kind of opt-in; sysops
might be asked to allow such identification to make it easier for
people to contact them; it would also likely get used *all* the time,
so it should be designed not to be a major impact on the db)

--SJ

> Is there a utility to find out who the other sysops are that are
> logged in and active at any point in time, so that in the event
> described above, it would be relatively easy to get a couple sysops
> involved before the situation get out of hand?
>
> =====
> Chris Mahan


body:
I have written a response to Barry, offlist, and posted it at
[[Talk:National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth]]. Perhaps you could
forward this suggestion about an external link to the Academy's information
page to him.

Fred

> From: Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:25:23 -0700
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] [Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk: Entry in  Wikipedia]
>
> At 01:39 AM 9/22/2004 +0200, Jens Ropers wrote:
>
>> Maybe we should just send these guys this link [
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
>> title=National_Academy_for_Gifted_and_Talented_Youth&action=edit ] and
>> tell them to work away.
>>
>> Wouldn't that be a near-perfect solution?
>> What do people think?
>
> It wouldn't be a perfect solution in this case, because in addition to
> simply inquiring about how editing is done Barry is also asking for the
> removal of certain versions from the article history and for the version
> that their representative writes to be "protected" in some way. We need to
> explain both that we can't comply with those requests, and also that those
> things won't actually be necessary in order to get a nicely neutral article
> written and maintained against POV.
>
> Personally, I'd recommend to them that they add an external link to their
> own "about us" page (to reassure them that they'll always have a way to
> present themselves according to their own terms) and to make copious use of
> the talk: page to explain and attribute any corrections they make to the
> article itself so that future editors will have a better idea of which
> information comes from which sources (while also pointing out that talk:
> pages have different community standards than article text, so that what
> they write there is pretty much immune from "tampering"). That's still no
> guarantee that the article will remain in the form that they prefer, but
> the information they add will hopefully be authoritative enough that it'll
> be hard to replace with inaccuracies in the future. Other editors will much
> more easily notice biases creeping back in if there's notes in talk: to
> work from.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionenth article

body:
For future milestones, announcing a specific article would be nice publicity,
good for that article's development, and an appropriate remembrance of
the event.  And of course once you pick the 'millionth' or other article,
you can keep on throwing out it and its successors until you come to
one which is not deleted.

It should however be possible to identify the *hour* in which the
millionth article
was created, no?

--SJ, eating his nefle

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:26:15 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Erik Zachte wrote:
>
> >To be more precise, I think it would be possible (because deleted records
> >are still preserved in another database),
> >but I don't think anyone is willing to dig that deep, only to find that a
> >ten word stub which had been marked for deletion within minutes now has to
> >be preserved for posterity :)
> >
> >
> This sort of thing can't be known with any accuracy anyway.  It's a
> matter of estimating when the millionth article will be added, and
> taking the first article logged after that time is reached.
>
> Ec
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
+sj+
 _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...]


body:
> > ...However we would be interested to know the level
> > of editorial control beyond these edits. For example who removed
> > the adverse comment (merely a student's perception) dated 30 Aug?
> > Is this done by Wikipedia staff - and if so how are 1 million plus
> > articles policed?
>
> There is no wikipedia staff.
>
> This is the wikiway: People write stuff and more people correct,
> mold, copyedit, verify, and add to it.
>
> That is how the 1 million plus articles are bettered over time.
>
> > We would be happy to rewrite the entry
>
> Great, please do.
>
> > At this stage we are seeking reassurance with respect to the
> > editorial policy of the site and to request whether inaccurate and
> > potentially damaging entries can be removed from the history.
>
> Unfortunately, that is not the wikiway.
> While we understand that your institution may feel a need to control
> the image the public at large may have of it, it is not the wikiway
> to tell people what opinions they should hold, but rather to give
> them balanced and unbiased information upon which they may draw to
> form their own conclusions and views.

Actually, we can accurately be much more polite than this.
If you as an expert in a particular field -- for instance, as the
possessor of the formal documents describint an institution's scope,
mandate, and resources -- come with facts and references to back up
your statements, and write a good and balanced description of your
organization, there is a body of editors who will preserve your
contributions in proportion to their balance and precision.
Many of these will be people with no interest in the subject matter at
hand, who will watch edits to that page only in order to moderate the
article's development.

Indeed, direct editing by an agency is an unusual enough event that I
think a number of NPOV experts would drop in on the article to join in
the discussion / community moderation of its development.  It is not
the case that people with idiosyncratic views can add whatever
unsubstantiated opinions they want to articles, and we should be very
clear about this fact when explaining the wiki way on Wikipedia (note
that this is not the wiki way everywhere...).

 > This may be something that needs to be addressed by the W as a whole.
> I think that having 5 or 6 wikipedians email the man independently
> would confuse him rather than anything. If there a place where
> "answers" to letters can be edited by the group? And the recipient
> directed there?

Please see  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR .
That page was created to deal with responses to the media, but it can
probably handle collaborative responses to letters / feedback as well.

> I suggest this because I see this sort of letter will become more
> common, and that we might want to not reinvent the wheel with each
> letter.

Quite right, and the responses we send to individuals like this will
likely come up in articles about us in the future.

--
+sj+


from_name: Phil Sandifer

body:
Well, there's IRC.

-Snowspinner

On Sep 21, 2004, at 5:46 PM, Christopher Mahan wrote:

>
> --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
>
>> A safe course of action for Zero would have been to consult with
>> other
>> sysops, and have someone else do it if it was within the rules of
>> blocking.
>
> Is there a utility to find out who the other sysops are that are
> logged in and active at any point in time, so that in the event
> described above, it would be relatively easy to get a couple sysops
> involved before the situation get out of hand?
>
>
>
> =====
> Chris Mahan
> 818.943.1850 cell
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> chris.mahan at gmail.com
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
Well, I for one felt it was nessecary to replace all content with
copyvio notices because it states explicitly on the Toki Pona homepage
that Toki Pona is copyrighted. In a cursory Google search, just to
make sure I wasn't missing some sort of release by Sonja of the
information into the public domain or under some sort of terms, I
found no page under which Sonja released the language in any sort of
way.

While it is debatable whether or not a language is copyrightable (see
Lojban), I feared for Wikipedias interests and so took down those
pages immediately pending further investigation.

Some have raised the point that a significant number of the pages were
written by Sonja herself, and thus were explicitly released under the
terms of the gfdl when she clicked "submit".

I have two things to say to that:

1. At the time I did not realise this.

2. Since I suspected that they were copyvios, rather than checking the
history of each of 200-odd pages I simply replaced them all.

Since it appears they were indeed *not* copyvio, the appropriate
course of action is simply to revert them to their previous versions
after it has been shown that they aren't copyvio, and then keep going
from where you were.

Whether or not I am blocked from all projects is obviously not my
choice, but I will submit that I have contributed much to the
community. For example, just in the past couple of days I have made
logos for over a dozen Wikipedias, and posted them on Meta. I am also
(at least I think) partially responsible for the founding of fo: and
lb: (I informed people of the possibility of creating them).

Anyhow the decision doesn't rest in my hands. I will not object if it
is decided that I should be blocked or banned or whatever, I will only
defend myself against specific arguments.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:45:36 +0100, Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've just reverted over 200 edits on the toki pona Wikipedia. Someone
> apparently feels the language is copyrighted so decided to replace
> every page, including user pages and the main page, with a copyright
> violation notice, presumably with the use of a bot. I've reverted
> these, although unfortunately the "bot rollback" failed on later pages
> so recent changes is a mess. I haven't deleted anything, so if people
> want to see the pages, such as "copyviopedia" this person created they
> can still do so.
>
> As far as I am aware Sonja Kisa, the creator of the language, has
> released it under the GFDL, but I can't find any mailing list evidence
> to back this up.
>
> If this is not the case, the wiki should obviously be removed but
> vandalizing hundreds of pages is not the way to go about this. I
> suggest we wait to hear from Sonja on the status of the copyright and
> remove it she can not confirm it is GFDL.
>
> Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
May I just remind everyone that the status of Toki Pona as a copyrighted
language, assuming that languages are in fact copyrightable, does not
preclude its also being licensed under the GFDL. As Sonja Kisa is the
creator of the language and, as I understand it, the primary contributor
on the Toki Pona Wikipedia, I would suggest that she has effectively
licensed Wikipedia to use the language, even if she has a copyright.

It's exactly the same as any of us who retain copyright in anything we
submit on Wikipedia.

--Michael Snow


subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
As I said before, while the law may be debated I added the notices
because of a suspected copyvio. IANAL...

--node

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:51:29 -0400, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
> On Sep 21, 2004, at 11:38 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> > Well, I for one felt it was nessecary to replace all content with
> > copyvio notices because it states explicitly on the Toki Pona homepage
> > that Toki Pona is copyrighted. In a cursory Google search, just to
> > make sure I wasn't missing some sort of release by Sonja of the
> > information into the public domain or under some sort of terms, I
> > found no page under which Sonja released the language in any sort of
> > way.
> >
>
> A language, per se, is not copyrightable. Only a particular description
> of a language is copyrightable under US law and international
> convention.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
In a cursory google search, as noted before, I did not find any such
release. In addition, Sonja has not contributed to tokipona: for quite
some time, I did not realise she was even a contributor at all before
today, in fact I had reason to believe she wasn't: a day or two ago
she made some sort of loose claim of non-involvement on #wikipedia. If
Sonja implied something (the way I remember it, she said it
explicitly).

Also at the time I was under the mistaken impression that policy for
copyvios was replace first, ask questions later.

As noted before, I really thought there was a genuine problem, and
because of a misconception I had about policy regarding copyrighted
materials, I thought that it was my duty to fix it. Remember, copyvio
notices are for suspected copyvios, and I did suspect a copyvio.

I realise now that perhaps I should've investigated more before I took
action, but at the time it seemed urgent because of my policy
misgivings which I have noted before.

I realise that I have wasted the time of a few individuals who work
very hard for Wikipedia. For that wasted time, I am sorry.

--node

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:52:10 -0700, Michael Snow
<wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
> May I just remind everyone that the status of Toki Pona as a copyrighted
> language, assuming that languages are in fact copyrightable, does not
> preclude its also being licensed under the GFDL. As Sonja Kisa is the
> creator of the language and, as I understand it, the primary contributor
> on the Toki Pona Wikipedia, I would suggest that she has effectively
> licensed Wikipedia to use the language, even if she has a copyright.
>
> It's exactly the same as any of us who retain copyright in anything we
> submit on Wikipedia.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
I'm pretty sure it is. The legal question here though is, as I
understand it, whether or not copyrights of languages are valid or
not, and apparently there is precident (Lojban) for languages being
uncopyrightable.

--node

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:59:17 -0400, James R. Johnson
<modean52 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Isn't Klingon copyrighted?
>
> James
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Stirling Newberry
> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:58 PM
> To: Mark Williamson; wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona
>
> On Sep 21, 2004, at 11:53 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> > As I said before, while the law may be debated I added the notices
> > because of a suspected copyvio. IANAL...
> >
> > --node
> >
>
> This point is not debateable - a language is not copyrightable, since
> it is an idea, not a particular work.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] (no subject)

body:
Well, there are webpages in Gothic for one, there's some short poetry
in it written very recently, and a good portion of the e-mails on
gothic-l are written partially or fully in Gothic.

As to whether or not there is any modern usage of Gothic offline: I
cannot tell you. It's a secret. (no, really it's because I don't know)

--node

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:45:36 +0200, Andre Engels <andrewiki at freemail.nl> wrote:
> > I think that if there are people who speak the language, even if in a
> > merely academic context, a Wikipedia is worthwhile. What about the
> > Latin Wikipedia?
>
> It depends on what you call 'speak the language'. I want to be sure that
> there are people who _use_ the language, that is, communicate in it. For
> example, if there is a journal that comes out once a year, where articles
> are written in Gothic.
>
> But in this case I have the feeling that 'speak the language' means that
> they _know_ the language, and the only use of the language is to read
> centuries old texts that were written in Gothic or as an object of study
> itself. And then I don't think a Wikipedia is worthwhile.
>
> Regarding Latin: It's still being used on a daily basis in the Roman
> Catholic church, for one thing.
>
> Andre Engels
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
As for the request to remove things from the article history, what is
wikipedia policy there regard wrt. libel?  Are libelous statements
removed from article histories?  Apparently libelous statements,
before a court has judged them as such?
--
+sj+


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
Rules of good conduct? I acted in good faith. I did not realise how
much trouble it would cause. I figured if there really was an issue,
then good, and if there wasn't the notices could easily be removed
(had somebody asked, I would've done it myself).

Regardless of whether or not there are copyright issues with
tokipona:, I believed there were and I put up copyvio notices.

And I strongly object to you calling my actions vandalism - I added
copyvio notices to pages where I suspected copyright violations.

Others have suggested I used a bot, the simple fact is I did it
manually. I'm too stupid to write a bot, though I could probably
learn.

As I said before, I am truly sorry for the time I have wasted and the
bad feelings I have caused.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:01:30 +0200, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> I clearly support a TEMPORARY ban.
>
> Rationale:
> This is a significant breach of rules of good conduct.
> Even if we're not a higher moral authority or in any way "teachers"
> over the next guy (and really, we're not), a ban will be better for
> Node, because it will give him the opportunity to return to this
> community afterwards in a way that makes it easy for everyone to accept
> that he has "served his time" and can then be welcomed back without
> anyone continuing to hold a grudge. No penalty at all would lead to a
> situation where people would continue to hold a grudge, and maybe not
> entirely without some justification.
>
> I have left a note about this to Sonjaaa, who is also a WP contributor
> on the English Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sonjaaa#Toki_Pona_vandalism
>
> I would imagine that she should be able to clarify the copyright
> situation.
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>      www.ropersonline.com
>
>
>
> On 22 Sep 2004, at 05:05, Tim Starling wrote:
>
> > Angela_ wrote:
> >> I've just reverted over 200 edits on the toki pona Wikipedia. Someone
> >> apparently feels the language is copyrighted so decided to replace
> >> every page, including user pages and the main page, with a copyright
> >> violation notice, presumably with the use of a bot. I've reverted
> >> these, although unfortunately the "bot rollback" failed on later pages
> >> so recent changes is a mess. I haven't deleted anything, so if people
> >> want to see the pages, such as "copyviopedia" this person created they
> >> can still do so.
> >
> > Edits were performed anonymously with the IP address 24.251.242.236 .
> > The corresponding hostname is ip24-251-242-236.ph.ph.cox.net.
> >
> > On the English Wikipedia:
> >
> > mysql> select distinct rc_user_text from recentchanges where
> > rc_ip='24.251.242.236';
> > +--------------+
> > | rc_user_text |
> > +--------------+
> > | Node ue      |
> > +--------------+
> >
> > I suggest a temporary ban from all projects effective immediately.
> >
> > -- Tim Starling
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: foundation-l

from_name: Joshua Swink

subject: [Foundation-l] favicons

body:
Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs,
and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons
are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was
in a tab quickly.

I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote,
and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They
are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/.

Thanks!

P.S. They are now a little more internationalized than the ones I
mentioned on wikimedia-l.


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] favicons


body:
Ditto Anglo-Saxon.  There are at least 5-10 core people I can get to write
articles, with perhaps 50 or so others for minor contributions, not counting
traffic to the various OE websites that could be redirected to the
Anglo-Saxon wiki, plus the people who e-mail me personally asking about OE.
Est-ce que vous parlez en Francais, Mark?  Je vais aller ? France ce mars.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 7:23 PM
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Request for a new Wikipedia

I could probably get some together, but why is that nessecary? Most of
the Wikipedias we have started with one or two users. The Cornish Wiki
is growing at a very surprising pace, and it only has two editors.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:30:16 +0200, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Do you have perhaps 5 editors able to write and read sicilian AND
> interested in starting that wikipedia ?
>
> ant
>
> Mark Williamson a ?crit:
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> > Sicilian language.
> >
> > Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
connectivity.
> >
> > I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> >
> > best,
> > node
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Node and Toki Pona

body:
For the edification of the rest of us, what is this regarding?

-Matt (User:Morven)

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:43:21 EDT, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> I think that Node has expressed his agreement that his behavior was a
> mistake. We all make mistakes. Node has also contributed considerably to Wikipedia,
> and does have a vast knowledge of language information. He is certainly a
> passionate contributor, and he has, in his passion, raised issues that we should
> consider--whether we agree with him or not.
>
> I suggest that we let this pass, and get on to more worthwhile topics, i.e.,
> building an encyclopedia.
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
As I said before, I was not aware of this.

My statement that I did what I did in good faith still stands (though
obviously I will not do it ever again, in fact chances are I'll never
post a copyvio notice anywhere again).

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:08:48 +0100, Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've just spoken to Sonja about this. Please see below for the end of
> an email she sent me this morning regarding the copyright status of
> the language.
>
> Angela.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Sonja Elen Kisa <marraskuu1978 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:45:44 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: toki pona Wikipedia
> To: angela at wikimedia.org
>
> [...]
>
> Anyway, the Toki Pona language is obviously released
> under the GFDL.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Sonja
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
OK, I sent an e-mail out to a couple of dozen potential contributors.
I'll wait to see their reaction and take it from there.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:30:16 +0200, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Do you have perhaps 5 editors able to write and read sicilian AND
> interested in starting that wikipedia ?
>
> ant
>
> Mark Williamson a ?crit:
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> > Sicilian language.
> >
> > Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet connectivity.
> >
> > I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> >
> > best,
> > node
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: phil hunt

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Diderot 0.1 - First alpha release available on
	sourceforge.net

body:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:02:02 +0200, nospam at mussenbrock.de <nospam at mussenbrock.de> wrote:
>
>The first 0.1 alpha release for the Diderot wikiwriter has been released
>today:
>
>http://sourceforge.net/projects/wikiwriter

Any chance of a Linux version?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

body:
Though i do not use windows normally i've had luck converting wavs to
Ogg Vorbis using WinLAME ( http://winlame.sourceforge.net/ )

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:20:44 +0200, Gerard Meijssen
<gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> I want to record some audio stuff for use within wiktionary. Ogg is the
> format that is recommended. What Windows software can I use to record in
> the ogg format ??
>
> When I have .wav files how can they be converted to ogg ??
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: zero 0000

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> If you think we get silly complaints now about sysop abuse, just
> imagine what it would be like if we let sysops win arguments over
> content by blocking people who disagree.

Of course you are right.  However, I did not block him to win
an argument over content but to stop his vandalism.  The issue
was not over the content of the material but the fact that
his only source for it was a pirate radio station well known
for inventing news stories.  He has been inserting material
from this same source for months despite repeated complaints
from many editors, and the time has passed for it to be
regarded as vandalism.  If the same material is found in a
respectable source, there would be no problem.

Having said that, in my frustration it appears that I went
further than the rules for dealing with vandals permit.
As you say, I should have consulted another sysop.  I won't
do it again.  In fact I might not do anything again as I am
reconsidering my involvement in Wikipedia altogether.  This
is not a reaction to this particular event but a more general
issue that I will write a separate note on.

--Zero

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Node and Toki Pona

body:
I think that Node has expressed his agreement that his behavior was a
mistake. We all make mistakes. Node has also contributed considerably to Wikipedia,
and does have a vast knowledge of language information. He is certainly a
passionate contributor, and he has, in his passion, raised issues that we should
consider--whether we agree with him or not.

I suggest that we let this pass, and get on to more worthwhile topics, i.e.,
building an encyclopedia.

Danny


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
AFAIK, sicilian today has been blended a lot with Italian. The average
sicilian hears Italian on television and writes in italian, not sicilian.
I'm sure most of them have no idea of how Sicilian is written (I have no
idea myself, but that doesn't count). It's not taught in schools, it's
mostly oral tradition.

Alfio

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, James R. Johnson wrote:

>Cool.  How is Sicilian related to Italian and French?
>
>James
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
>[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson
>Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:21 PM
>To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
>
>Hi all,
>
>The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
>Sicilian language.
>
>Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
>connectivity.
>
>I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
>
>best,
>node
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
On Sep 21, 2004, at 11:38 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> Well, I for one felt it was nessecary to replace all content with
> copyvio notices because it states explicitly on the Toki Pona homepage
> that Toki Pona is copyrighted. In a cursory Google search, just to
> make sure I wasn't missing some sort of release by Sonja of the
> information into the public domain or under some sort of terms, I
> found no page under which Sonja released the language in any sort of
> way.
>

A language, per se, is not copyrightable. Only a particular description
of a language is copyrightable under US law and international
convention.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
On Sep 21, 2004, at 11:53 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> As I said before, while the law may be debated I added the notices
> because of a suspected copyvio. IANAL...
>
> --node
>

This point is not debateable - a language is not copyrightable, since
it is an idea, not a particular work.


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
Isn't Klingon copyrighted?

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Stirling Newberry
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:58 PM
To: Mark Williamson; wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

On Sep 21, 2004, at 11:53 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> As I said before, while the law may be debated I added the notices
> because of a suspected copyvio. IANAL...
>
> --node
>

This point is not debateable - a language is not copyrightable, since
it is an idea, not a particular work.

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Anthere

body:
Do you have perhaps 5 editors able to write and read sicilian AND
interested in starting that wikipedia ?

ant

Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> Hi all,
>
> The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> Sicilian language.
>
> Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet connectivity.
>
> I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
>
> best,
> node


subject: [WikiEN-l] Node and Toki Pona

body:
My two cents -

What node did was stupid and immature, and he should have known that
blanking an entire encyclopedia was not the way to offer his concerns.
He should have posted to the list, on meta, or somewhere else that he
thought the entire encyclopedia might be copyvio. It could have been
discussed, and bot rollbacks wouldn't have been necessary.

As node has, to say the least, been a source of difficulty and
disruption in the past, I can see why there's a significant movement to
throw the book at him.

My feeling is that a project-wide ban is a very, very big step, though,
and should be reserved. I think node is pretty clearly on warning here,
and that further displays of such immaturity will pretty much not be
tolerated by anyone.

-Snowspinner
On Sep 22, 2004, at 12:28 AM, Angela_ wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:11:47 -0700, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> For the edification of the rest of us, what is this regarding?
>
> Basically, an anon IP replaced practically every page on the toki pona
> Wikipedia with a copyright violation template because he didn't
> believe the language itself was GFDL. I reverted this because I
> thought it was GFDL. Tim announced the vandal was node-ue and proposed
> a project-wide ban, Raul654 banned node-ue on en and meta, Danny
> convinced Raul654 to unblock him, and Sonja, the creator of the
> language, said toki pona "is obviously released under the GFDL". See
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2004-September/
> 017331.html
> and other emails in that thread.
>
> Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Requests for logos

body:
Speaking of which, there is a list of logos that need to be updated
here: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-development_tasks_for_developers

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:19:53 +0200, Petr Kadlec <petr.kadlec at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On the czech (cs:) Wikipedia, we still have the original english logo.
> On meta:Requests for logos, I have added the request that we are ready
> to switch the logo, but there is still no reply (after a month). So I
> am trying to catch someone's attention here -- could you help to
> change the logo?
>
> Thanks,
> Mormegil
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Those words and phrases are both very uncommon. Try searching for
"furtunatu" -- more common, but still not something you would expect
to find in every single webpage.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:06:08 +0200 (MEST), Alfio Puglisi
<puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >There are plenty of Sicilian-language websites online
>
> Are you sure? A google search of "veru beddu" (very beautiful) returns 5
> results, searching for "ntrallazzu" returns 15 results, many of them in
> italian.
>
> >Also, Sicilian is, along with Italian, a co-official language of the
> >Sicilian autonomous region of Italy.
>
> It isn't. Sicily is an autonomous region, but the language is not
> officially recognized.
>
> Alfio
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Jens Ropers

body:
Maybe we should just send these guys this link [
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
title=National_Academy_for_Gifted_and_Talented_Youth&action=edit ] and
tell them to work away.

Wouldn't that be a near-perfect solution?
What do people think?

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

On 21 Sep 2004, at 21:20, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Barry Meatyard
> <Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk> -----
>
> From: "Barry Meatyard" <Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk>
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:04:35 +0100
> To: <jwales at bomis.com>
> Subject: Entry in Wikipedia
>
> Dear Mr Wales,
>
> Our attention has recently been drawn to an entry for the National
> Academy on 'Wikipedia'.
>
> The National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth is an English
> government agency and part of the national education system.
>
> We are aware that the entry was initiated by a 16 year old Academy
> student with a less than complete knowledge of the Academy's remit.
> Subsequently a number of edits have been made by even younger students
> and we accept that some of these are getting the entry closer to
> reality. However we would be interested to know the level of editorial
> control beyond these edits. For example who removed the adverse
> comment (merely a student's perception) dated 30 Aug? Is this done by
> Wikipedia staff - and if so how are 1 million plus articles policed?
>
> We would be happy to rewrite the entry to enable it to reflect more
> accurately the remit and contractual obligations of the Academy, which
> of course would be entirely factual as befits an objective
> encyclopedia. However we need to be reassured that such objectivity is
> not compromised by the facility for those who may have a skewed
> perspective to air it in public.
>
> Whilst for some entries it may be interesting to see the evolution of
> an entry, (as a professional botanist I was fascinated by the
> development of some of the plant focused entries), the fact that
> potentially damaging and inaccurate comments remain in the 'history'
> thread is of concern to us as a publicly funded body. You will
> appreciate that we are not convinced that a collegiate approach to
> evolving a definition for a government agency of which there may be a
> variety of subjective impressions is appropriate.
>
> At this stage we are seeking reassurance with respect to the editorial
> policy of the site and to request whether inaccurate and potentially
> damaging entries can be removed from the history.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Yours,
>
> Barry
>
>
> Dr. Barry Meatyard
> Director of Student Services
> National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth
> University of Warwick
> Coventry
> CV4 7AL
> UK
> Tel: 44 (0) 24 76 574483
>
>
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
> --
> "La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on
> fr.wikipedia.org
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>