from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Hoi,
In the discussion on nds, there is one thing that you do not mention and
that is rather relevant.to this discussion. Sass is not a dialect, it is
an orthography so nobody can claim to speak Sass. I have been told that
Lower Saxon has some 200 distinct orthographies. Heiko wants to have a
resource for Sass, this has everything to do with the fact that the
nds.wikipedia is Sass only. The fact that a great resource is created
for this I fully endorse. The problem is about how to treat the non-Sass
content. Sabine did get permission to use a resource. She uploaded this
list onto the it and the nds wiktionary and was told by Heiko that there
were many "errors" in it. It turned out that the words were from many
resources, they should represent different orthographies all considered
to be nds. Heiko started to change these entries to Sass and remove many
entries as well.

At issue is that Sabine informed Heiko and the other people on
nds.wiktionary that she is actively persuing research on this list.
Words have however been deleted some of them have even been identified
as "Missingsch". Now this is something I do not apreciate at all. Words
that are only indicated as nds have no clear pedigree and have a limited
use. When they have been identified as something specific, they can be
attributed to one of the orthographies or even to non nds dialects. When
atributed these words make valuable content. This is given the confusion
that results from the lack of standardisation in nds not unrealistic.
Heiko is aware that Sabine puts real effort in her research and I am
disapointed that he has deleted many words regardless.

On a more positive note, Heiko and I are cooperating in creating a
template that he will use for uploading a large number of nds-sass
content. This will facilitate the inclusion of the nds-wiktionary data
in the Ultimate Wiktionary..

Thanks,
GerardM

Wytukaze wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>What with the recent heated debate about nds: while I've been on a
>(less-than-brilliant) trip to Ghana, I thought I'd talk ramblingly at
>you fine members of the list for a while.
>
>As we all know, English has a number of standards for spellings,
>usually termed "British" and "American". What some might not know is
>that these are not real standards at all; they are just conventions.
>It's similar in many ways to those parts of the UK constitution termed
>"conventions": Things are done that way because they always have been,
>it's tradition - not because it has to be. Ui kan rui' luik dhis in
>Inglish if ui won'. But that's just the point; I can't write like that
>in English, and expect to be taken seriously or even to be understood
>well, even though that's a reasonable go at representing my accent.
>It's a symptom of an age-old problem for descriptivists. Even if
>prescriptivist notions might stymy certain aspects of language, they
>still exist, and are as valid a reason for language change as
>borrowings or sound changes. They're certainly needed so that a
>Geordie could talk to a Ga in writing; in speech, they have a damn
>hard time understanding each other's English.
>
>So, with that in mind, what about Plattd??tsch? There's a large number
>of conventions, some only accepted by small amounts of people, and
>there's even the complicating factor of bilingualism - Just what bits
>of High German do you call borrowings? From what I can see, Sabine and
>Gerard want to take the descriptivist route and describe all spelling
>and pronunciation variants on a reasonably-equal footing, and for
>that, they must be congratulated. It's quite a task to undertake.
>However, Heiko, who, I take it, is a native speaker of the Sass
>dialect, wants a bit of space to give students and enthusiasts
>something to actually learn consistently. Now, let's not be too quick
>to jump to it being one of those descriptivist-prescriptivist debates.
>I seriously urge you to listen to Heiko here, he's got a point. Those
>more common forms should be listed precisely as that, more common
>forms - They shouldn't quite be on a level pegging, IMHO. Orthography
>is a real problem, and it'll probably never be fully unified, as the
>dialects diverge and merge more and the situation gets worse.
>
>To put a bit of perspective on it, allow me to teach you something
>about Ga orthography. The alphabet is your basic
>Latin-influenced-by-IPA, like this:
>
>a b d e ? f g h i j k l m n ? o ? p r s t u (v) w y (z)
>
>The consonants I've stuck in brackets are because they're quite
>uncommon, extant though they are.
>
>The alphabet is phonetic, and there's not really much of a situation
>with dialects. So, everyone spells everything the same way, right?
>Well, almost. Take the digraph 'ts'. This is pronounced, consistently,
>as English 'ch', German 'tsch', etc. But, its voiced companion is
>'j'... Usually. You can also write it as 'dz' (as in the family name
>'Obadzen') or even as 'dj'. So even here there's room for
>orthographical preference. Still, that's not quite the end of it.
>
>A tilde (~) placed over a letter indicates nasalisation. My stepfather
>pronounces nearly all of his vowels this way, in actuality, though he
>only writes the tilde where it is canonically present. But if you go
>look at http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eny%C9%94 ("eny?", two) you will
>notice there is an alternative form listed,
>http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eny%C9%94%CC%83 ("eny??"), and it is
>precisely that.
>
>By now you may be thinking "That's all well and good, but what the
>hell are you talking about?!". My point is, we can't simplify nds:'s
>problems to the extent we may like to. It has quite a unique position
>and we have to represent _every_ aspect of the language, if we can.
>That doesn't mean merely list every form we can find, it also means we
>have to state which forms are preferred, most common, where and when.
>Take "abschreim", supposedly Low Saxon, but presumably in High German
>orthography, and even High German pronunciation. It's a slang term,
>right? Slang is very often cross-language; you'll hardly ever hear a
>Ga saying "buulu" (fool; very, very offensive), but "motherfucker"?
>They've been exposed to it, and to the younger ones it seems cool to
>use it, even while speaking Ga for the entire conversation. Do young
>Low Saxon speakers use "abschreim" while speaking in their native
>dialect? It's worth thinking about.
>
>So, thanks for reading this far, and I hope some of what I said made
>sense, and didn't offend anyone.
>
>Wes gesund,
>
>Wytukaze
>
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Ben E.

subject: [WikiEN-l] An admin misused his privilages to block me...

body:
>
> > Given the amount of vandalism I see from AOL IPs, I sometimes wonder if
> > Wikipedia wouldn't be better off banning the entire AOL range - it's
> > essentially a giant anonymous proxy.
> >
> > Jay.

That would be cutting off a amount of loyal users, of course. But I think it
would be advantagous for any AOL users dedicated to Wikipedia just to get a
new ISP. I do think there is a good idea in limiting AOL editing: a hefty
amount of time and effort by RC patrollers goes into reverting simple
vandalism from those ranges.

[[User:Bratsche|Ben]]
--
Bratsche-It means "viola!"


from_name: Theo Clarke

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:00:40 +0100, Pawe??'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:
>>?Please keep in mind that if a link is used as a reference for an
>>
>>?article, especially if it is cited in the article text, it should
>>?never be removed, even if dead, until a suitable replacement
>>?reference
>>?is provided.
>>
>?Can't we replace such links with links to web.archive.org then?

Adding a link to web.archive.org is appropriate and desirable but replacement destroys the link to the original source, which will be needed if/when web.archive.org dies.

Theo


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Musings on "correct" spellings

body:
Hi,

well see, it is quite simple: there is space for both ways.

If a term has approx. 160-180 recurrences in internet and let's say
approx. the half of it is useless or repetitive you have 80-90 remaining
- let's say only 50 unique uses remaining and this only in a language
that is hardly used on the net. This means that sooner or later someone
might find such a text and search for a specific word in order to
understand the text, right?

If you have a term that is used often by only two or three writers in
poems, but these poems are likely to be read by other people and these
other people could search for that term to understand what it means it
should be there. If possible even here with a link to where you can find
it or maybe with a quotation or a note (or more of them).

These terms are used for reference to understand a text and not to write
according to a certain spelling. As long as you have not exact writing
attributed to it, it is an nds term used in several texts and it is
there to explain this.

When you want to standardise everyday writing you go the way of a
unified language - this means you ask people to make a compromise to
their "local language" and if they want they will do this. These
standardised writings have rules, these rules can be explained and
taught. So: these words must be categorised correctly in order to show
that they are part of that standard. They will be used by those who
support this kind of spelling and by those who teach it and by those who
have a text in front of them and just search for the word to understand it.

But all of them exist - you cannot deny that a writer of a poem, a
journalist or whoever uses another way of writing. There is no legal
definition of what is wrong or right. So all have to be there. It is as
simple as that.

Consider that for researching a term myself I need approx 20 to 30
minutes - then I can say: the term is widely used and these are the
examples. If possible I also add the spelling category or the regional
category, but I add it.

Talking about "abschreim" - I am not sure if this word is part of nds,
but it could be - the thing is that I can find it written from people in
the region of F?rth, but also near by Coburg or deeper in Bavaria it is
used. So not being sure I sent a mail to a mailing list that among
others is about low saxon and asked there (the list is moderated and the
listowner on holiday, so it will need some time to receive an answer).
In the meanwhile on the Italian witkionary I attributed it to Bavarian,
region F?rth since this is 100% sure. The notes are on the discussion
page. The thing is that N?rnberg/F?rth even having a more Franconian
kind of language is attributed to Bavarian (see Ethnologue). Coburg
instead not - it is categorised differently and it is clearly stated
that it is part of Franconian (Mainfr?nkisch). Now there are some
Franconian roots in the nds region as well (at least this is stated by
an encyclopaedia - only in some very restricted areas) and there the
word "abschreim" could be used, but of course up to now I don't have a
real answer on that.

As long as you have a standardised language like Italian (I am not using
German here, because it is not really standardised anymore thanks to two
federal states) you don't have a problem: the correct ortography is
"law". But this is not the case for Low Saxon, Bavarian, Neapolitan,
Sicilian, Friulian and whatever.

Now I am asking: may we impose to people not to be able to read or write
their language? May we impose them to learn any kind of "correct
spelling" we decide for? Has Wiktionary the right to do this or does it
have the right to describe what is there, what exisits and to try to
categorise it in a way to have, in the end, some kind of very detailed
language map. Some kind of ressource that will maintain these words for
future generations for reference. I don't feel myself to be in a
position to be able to impose to someone that his/her language, only
because it is spoken and written by a minority, is not valid. Whatever
is published is available for public and I hope it will be available for
public for ever. If  it remains available for public sooner or later
someone will read this, maybe will need to understand, maybe will want
understand from where a word comes from and if wiktionary can than be
the place to tell this person "hei, this is a word that comes from
Hintertupfingen - only 1500 people talked like this and only 500 were
able to write like this" - the goal of preserving all wisdom and all
words in all languages was met.

The goal of wiktionary is all words in all languages ... I for myself
will not exclude one word if it exists in a publication. The only time I
deleted two words I did not find any reference on the web were Italian
dialectal words with very doubtful meaning (it was also a period with
quite a lot of vandalism). I asked others, colleagues that come from
that regions and no-one could confirm me these words, not even a similar
one with a very different meaning and not even from other regions.

I repeat there is a place for both systems within the same wiktionary -
all is about categorising, examples and notes and of course: taking some
time.

Ciao, Sabine

Wytukaze wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>What with the recent heated debate about nds: while I've been on a
>(less-than-brilliant) trip to Ghana, I thought I'd talk ramblingly at
>you fine members of the list for a while.
>
>
>
.......

___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
On 22/08/05, Theo Clarke <wiki at tignosis.com> wrote:

> >Can't we replace such links with links to web.archive.org then?
>
> Adding a link to web.archive.org is appropriate and desirable but
> replacement destroys the link to the original source, which will be
> needed if/when web.archive.org dies.

Doesn't a web.archive.org link contain within it the URL of the original source?

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Whateverpedia

body:
I hadn't heard of him either, but my edits didn't go very well on that
page and I stepped back pretty quick. One of the things that scares me
about the wikipedia is how many conflicted pages I have walked away
from. I wish RfC worked better, but how many people '''want''' to edit
a conflicted article? Me, I have way more fun with the obscure ones,
like  [[Hawthorne Effect]] or [[kosas]] ;) It doesn't hurt that the
few fellow editors from those pages happen to be extremely friendly
and nice to be around, either.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 8/22/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> > You two have the moral highground on this one, I have to say.
>
> Thank you, Jack, and I loved that story about the preacher. But it's
> actually very easy to stand up on the moral hill and look stoically over
> the battle - it's more difficult and more important to get down into the
> trenches and try to get some NPOV work done.
>
> In that spirit I tried making some changes to [[Eustace Mullins]]. Please
> edit without mercy. I think I'm neutral here but it's the neutrality of
> ignorance, I never heard about the man until today.
>
> Regards,
> Haukur
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Heiko Evermann

body:
Hi Gerard,
> In the discussion on nds, there is one thing that you do not mention and
> that is rather relevant.to this discussion. Sass is not a dialect, it is
> an orthography so nobody can claim to speak Sass. I have been told that
> Lower Saxon has some 200 distinct orthographies.
Now this is something that you certainly misunderstood. What Sabine wrote us
was:
>> Some days ago I had a longer telephone
>>conversation with one of the directors of the Institut f?r
>>niederdeutsche Sprache (institute for nds) - he explained that there are
>>at least six different acknowledged ways of writing nds and if we go to
>>details 200 to 400 ways of writing (including also dictionaries from
>>around 1920 etc.) can be defined - so accepting only one way of writing
>>is a discrimination to my opinion.
So: there are at least 6 different ways that are in use. And when we look at
old books you can find more. There has been some amound of standardization
over the last decades. If you count every book published in Low Saxon that
deviates from any of these as an orthography of its own, then you might even
come up with 10000 different orthographies. Are all of these worthy of beig
included into the wiktionary? Certainly not.

> Heiko wants to have a
> resource for Sass, this has everything to do with the fact that the
> nds.wikipedia is Sass only.
An encyclopedia nees a certain amount of consistency. Besides you are
misstating me time and again. I said that other orthographies do have their
place when they are attributed properly. Which is not the case with your data
that you uploaded partially, the data that is under discussion. It contains
1) some plain errors
2) come very unusual words
3) a highly inconsistent spelling, the source of which is unknown, at least to
you Gerard and Sabine. (Apart from the author of the list, of course. I am
speaking of the source of the orthography.)

> The fact that a great resource is created
> for this I fully endorse. The problem is about how to treat the non-Sass
> content. Sabine did get permission to use a resource.
Permission. Not duty. You press so hard with this content that I wonder why
you see it as your duty to have this stuff dumped into nds.wiktionary.org.

> She uploaded this
> list onto the it and the nds wiktionary and was told by Heiko that there
> were many "errors" in it.
Fortunately you only uploaded part of it. It is much much more time consuming
to edit the data through the web than to edit the import file in a text
editor. (I do admit that I had thought about just deleting all of it and
starting all over with a fresh import, but that would be out of bounds
concerning my adminship. So I took the hard way with the words that you
already uploaded. And please do not put errors into quotation marks.

> It turned out that the words were from many
> resources, they should represent different orthographies all considered
> to be nds. Heiko started to change these entries to Sass and remove many
> entries as well.
1) I moved the entries
2) I marked the moved entries as "-nds-sass-" as you requested. Now please do
not complain about it.
3) I deleted the obsolete redirects that were left.
4) I deleted conjucation forms which we do not need at the moment. It will be
much easier to do the conjugation entries once we have a good basis. At the
moment what is lacking is a good foundation.
5) this makes your statement "and remove many entries" plainly wrong.

> At issue is that Sabine informed Heiko and the other people on
> nds.wiktionary that she is actively persuing research on this list.
An exercise in futility. She estimated 30 min of research for each entry. 1500
entries then make 750 hours of research on a low quality list.

> Words have however been deleted some of them have even been identified
> as "Missingsch".
You can of course do with "Missingsch" (a mix-dialect somewhere between Low
Saxon and Standard German) whatever you like. (To my preference outside of
nds.wiktionary.org.) But please attribute the entries as such. I will not do
that for you. I will just care about Low Saxon at the moment.

> Now this is something I do not apreciate at all.
I did not appreciate your upload.

> Words
> that are only indicated as nds have no clear pedigree and have a limited
> use.
In another mail you criticized me when I forgot to state nds-sass after the
move. You said without proper attribution the words are useless. I move them
to a proper place. (Just an edit. This is what "move" is for.) I attribute
the underlying orthography. And I then do delete the remaining empty
redirect. (Which to my understanding is not a misuse of adminship.) Whatever
is useless (even to your definition) can be deleted. This is done all over
wiki-world.

> When they have been identified as something specific, they can be
> attributed to one of the orthographies or even to non nds dialects.
Right. Exactly. Once you come up with some data to back up your words, feel
free to add them again.

> When
> atributed these words make valuable content. This is given the confusion
> that results from the lack of standardisation in nds not unrealistic.
> Heiko is aware that Sabine puts real effort in her research and I am
> disapointed that he has deleted many words regardless.
At the moment these words are absolutely useless. Once the Low Saxon speaking
world finds our wiktionary (with the mess we are currently cleaning up) our
credibility would be gone.

> On a more positive note, Heiko and I are cooperating in creating a
> template that he will use for uploading a large number of nds-sass
> content. This will facilitate the inclusion of the nds-wiktionary data
> in the Ultimate Wiktionary..
Yes, this is a positive step indeed. And I do apologize for anything that I
have stated too harsh. This template is something that I really long for, and
I think it will improve the work a lot. Besides I can really live with
non-Sass-content, as long as it is properly attributed and as long as there
is a possibility for the user to find his way through all the data.

Just a summary of what I want
1) I want to see the data of Werner be converted to Sass, entered as such
(properly marked). I am willing to put a lot of effort in that.
2) I want to add quite a number of words coming from the translation of KDE
(Linux) to Low Saxon. For all that I need a reliable template that makes sure
the data can be reused in the UW.
3) I do appreciate all your efforts in researching the origin of Werners
words. I do however consider that a waste of time. (But not of my time.)
4) I want to move the existing entries to Sass. They would then be properly
attributed. This is something within my reach. I know the Sass-orthography
well enough to do that.
5) I personnaly will not help in attributing the data as it is in Werners
list. I cannot help with that, because it is far beyond my reach. I consider
that data to be internally inconsistent. I can back this claim up and I think
I have done so. You can, however do so, if you like.
6) I do not want to see Werners list without rework in the nds.wiktionary.org.
Especially not with the label "nds". You can reenter Werners words once you
find a matching orthography. You can check all 200 if you like. From my
understanding of Low Saxon that will be a hard job. And that I really do not
know is to whose service this will be. What are the users supposed to do with
all those words that might conicide with spelling A, B, C, D and varying in
each entry. Who is supposed to learn Low Saxon from that? Wouldn't it be much
better to
A) let us from nds.wiktionary.org (it is not just me who thinks this way over
Werners list) work through the list, move everything to a proper place
B) (a job for you, if you like) to dig for high quality material in other
dialecs of Low Saxon, especially concerning westphalian and to work on that?
The usual spellings in LS are much less different that you keep stating. And
we should really discuss which ones we really need in order to provide some
benefit to the user. But what is really lacking is a bit of coverage on
Westphalian. Sass is based on Noordneddersassisch, which covers Lower Saxony,
Bremen, Hamburg, Schleswig Holstein and the western part of Mecklenburg.
Westphalian is different in some interesting ways and it really deserves some
coverage. I really do not understand why you are putting so much effort into
Werners list. Is ist just because we got it for free and you just dislike the
criticism that you earned for that? After all it is not the language that you
speak (Dutch) nor the language of Sabine (South Germany). Of course you are
free to work in Low Saxon regardless of your mother lanaguage. (Please do not
misunderstand me here.) I would just like to know why this list is so dear to
your heart that you put in so much effort in defending it. I have been
wondering about that for quite some time now, but so far I really do not
know. If I came up with a word list in Zeews or Frisian or Maori and proposed
to upload it (all languages that I do not speak), and several people
proficient in that language told me that this list is highly problematic and
if they offered to work through that list, I would just say: thank you for
saving me so much of my valuable time: Take the list, improve it, put it into
the wiktionary afterwards. If you need technical help, I will help you. I
will have a look at it every now and then and I would proceed to another
project or another word list or to implementing more functionality in the UW
or whatever. Instead you just put in hour after hour in defending a list,
just hoping that you will find some way for backing it up. You do not even
bother to go in the details. We could tell you quite a lot about the possible
origins of the (mis)spellings.  We could explain the underlying phonetics to
you. We could tell you about different orthographies for LS and how they came
into existence, etc. But you are not at all interested in a discussion about
the data itself.

OK, this mail has become much longer than I intended, and it is much to late
tonight.

Just be assured that I am not interested in a war over word lists. Let us find
some peaceful settelment to all this and go back to work.

One technical question: which program will you use for importing? Will it be
based on pywikipediabot/wiktionary.py? How will you be able to import
conjucation tables? Is that something that we will have to program fresh
anyway?

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann


from_name: Pawe³ 'Ausir' Dembowski

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
> Doesn't a web.archive.org link contain within it the URL of the original source?

It does.

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Wikipedia Romania (Ronline)

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Change of Interwiki name for Moldovan language

body:
Hi, I would like to know how it's possible to change
the name of the interwiki link for the Moldovan
language from the current
"молдовеняскэ"
to
"молдовеняскэ
(чириликэ)".
I talked to Node and he said I should contact a
developer, so if there are any developers reading this
and you have some spare time, I would be very thankful
if you could change it in this way for mo.wiki.

The reason behind the change is because such a change
was specified in the Ronline proposal that was
approved by the majority of Moldovan Wikipedia users
for the future of the wiki.

See:
http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ronline/Propunere#en:Proposal

The explanation is:
"Mo.wikipedia.org will be linked from other Wikipedias
using the name
"молдовеняскэ
(чириликэ)".
This is to signify that the link is to a Moldovan
(Cyrillic) page and that Moldovan is usually written
in Latin script."

It was basically a compromise after a huge round of
negotiations over at the Moldovan Wikipedia.

Thanks,

Ronline

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
I can confirm what Ronline is saying, and I second his request for the
change of the interwiki title ASAP.

Mark

On 22/08/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) <rowikipedia at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi, I would like to know how it's possible to change
> the name of the interwiki link for the Moldovan
> language from the current
> "????????????"
> to
> "????????????
> (????????)".
> I talked to Node and he said I should contact a
> developer, so if there are any developers reading this
> and you have some spare time, I would be very thankful
> if you could change it in this way for mo.wiki.
>
> The reason behind the change is because such a change
> was specified in the Ronline proposal that was
> approved by the majority of Moldovan Wikipedia users
> for the future of the wiki.
>
> See:
> http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ronline/Propunere#en:Proposal
>
> The explanation is:
> "Mo.wikipedia.org will be linked from other Wikipedias
> using the name
> "????????????
> (????????)".
> This is to signify that the link is to a Moldovan
> (Cyrillic) page and that Moldovan is usually written
> in Latin script."
>
> It was basically a compromise after a huge round of
> negotiations over at the Moldovan Wikipedia.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ronline
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
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POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


list: foundation-l

from_name: Zachary Harden

body:
Hmmm...sounds like a good idea to me.

Regards,

Zachary Harden

>From: Elisabeth Bauer <elian at djini.de>
>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
>CC: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>Subject: [Foundation-l] Spammer trick - image uploads abused
>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 05:33:13 +0200
>
>Hi,
>
>In the last time we had several cases where spammers uploaded images on
>different wikipedias and used the pictures in html emails, trying to sell
>chairs, grammophones or whatever.
>
>Usually the uploads were the only contributions of said user, and the
>license was missing.
>
>It's maybe worth to consider disabling uploads on the projects which don't
>really need it but can use commons (such as the german wikipedia whose
>image upload policy is entirely compatible with commons and especially all
>the smaller wikis which are not constantly watched).
>
>Crosspost to wikitech and wikipedia-l, but please answer on foundation-l
>since this is a project wide policy issue.
>
>greetings,
>elian


subject: [Foundation-l] Spammer trick - image uploads abused


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

body:
Hi,

In the last time we had several cases where spammers uploaded images on
different wikipedias and used the pictures in html emails, trying to
sell chairs, grammophones or whatever.

Usually the uploads were the only contributions of said user, and the
license was missing.

It's maybe worth to consider disabling uploads on the projects which
don't really need it but can use commons (such as the german wikipedia
whose image upload policy is entirely compatible with commons and
especially all the smaller wikis which are not constantly watched).

Crosspost to wikitech and wikipedia-l, but please answer on foundation-l
since this is a project wide policy issue.

greetings,
elian
PS: I'll be away (on holiday) for the next three weeks, so don't expect
an answer from me, only posting this to the list to make people aware of
the issue.


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Spammer trick - image uploads abused


from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Spammer trick - image uploads abused

body:
I agree with Mark on this. Turning off external linking, if such a
thing could be made possible, would be much more helpful than
disabling images. Having all non-fair-use images go to commons would
be great, but I'd rather wait until Single Login was implemented
before enforcing this.

I've included Mark's post below since it was sent only to wikitech and
this thread should be kept on foundation-l.

Angela.

On 8/22/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with what you said about the German Wikipedia, however:
>
> I sharply disagree with what you said about "all the smaller wikis
> which are not constantly watched"... which Wikis are you talking
> about? The Small Wikis Monitoring Team (SWMT) closely watches all
> recent changes on all inactive / low activity Wikimedia wikis
> (excluding inactive Wikinewses) -- Wikipedias, Wiktionaries,
> Wikiquotes, Wikibookses... -- and this includes image uploads.
>
> So far, there have been no such abuses of image uploads on any of
> these wikis. There has been uploading of porn images (all of which
> Angela or someone else has expressly deleted), and to strange images
> (for example of a frog wearing a hat, for a spam page on the Gothic
> Wikipedia), but these are relatively infrequent, especially compared
> to linkspam (largely from China, Russia, Germany, and also
> pharmaceutical and porn linkspam in English).
>
> Besides, "small wikis" is a very imprecise term. What do you define as
> "small"? Does it need more than 10.000 articles? More than 1.000? More
> than 100? More than 10? More than 1? "Small" is a relative term. A
> user of the Sicilian Wikipedia may not nessecarily think of theirs as
> a small Wikipedia, with nearly 2.000 articles now, but they would
> probably consider the Friulian Wikipedia to be small, with nearly 90
> articles. German Wikipedians might consider the Chinese Wikipedia to
> be small, with under 30.000 articles. It's a matter of perspective --
> many English Wikipedians seem to think that the English Wikipedia is
> THE Wikipedia, and that it is somehow entitled to better treatment or
> that it is much more important or something, as one can see from some
> of the complaints lodged by English Wikipedians against the transition
> to the international portal, and the incessant whinging that followed
> for a number of weeks. Yes, the English Wikipedia is the largest, but
> it did certainly get a head-start because it was started earlier than
> all other Wikipedias. The German Wikipedia, for example, is doing
> quite well considering it was founded well after the English
> Wikipedia.
>
> Mark


from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: Chapters,
 deductibility and donation profiles (was Wikimania
 2006 - host city   contest to open onSeptember 1st 20)

body:
Arne Klempert wrote:

Thanks for answering Arne

> On 8/17/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>A week ago, at Wikimania, when it was pointed out that the german
>>chapter had money, while the french and the italian did not, I suggested
>>that possibly some of the german money could be used for other chapters,
>>in particular when there is common currency and these countries are in
>>certain common frame (here, european union). I am not sure I got a
>>positive feedback on this (nor a negative actually).
>
>
> The problem with this, like with almost every idea on how to spend the
> german money is that we don't really know yet if it's possible :(
>
>
>>Maybe it would help to clarify in which cases we could actually use the
>>money and in which we can not.
>
>
> This question is not easy to answer. The usual case for a charity
> organisation in Germany is to spend money for its own undertakings.
>>From what I know (I'm neither an expert in this field, nor am I the
> treasurer) every other spending is more or less difficult. Spending
> money in Germany (for hardware or almost everything else) would be the
> easiest way. Likewise easy would it be to buy hardware in Germany and
> ship it to a data center, let's say in Amsterdam, providing the
> purpose of this hardware is easy to explain (to the tax office) in the
> sense that it can be separated from other things (eg. we wanted to buy
> a big tool server until a nice company came around and donated us
> one). Unfortunately, adding to the existing server park is much more
> complicated to explain to the tax office.
>
> To pay for general hardware might be possible but would probably be
> much more difficult. For example, it *might* be possible to buy
> general hardware in Germany, send it to Amsterdam and explain how it
> is used to the tax office. This gets much more complicated if we buy
> hardware in the US and add it to an existing pool. The idea is that
> starting a whole new data center, anywhere in the world, as our own
> undertaking, run by German money, would be easier to endorse as a
> "Wikimedia Deutschland undertaking".
>
> If Wikimedia Deutschland?s money is to be only a part of an existing
> pool, then we need a clear idea of what Wikimedia wants to do (not
> only now, but also in the next year or the year after). Then, and only
> then, once we have a plan, a budget... we can ask a tax professional
> to tell us, how this is possible and how - which paperwork (project
> descriptions, contracts) is needed. To be sure that the tax office
> will accept this later, we need to ask them beforehand. This will take
> time, perhaps a few months (until they might respond with more
> questions ...)
>
> So far we (or at least I) have no idea what the mid-term plans are.
> Some months ago the Kennisnet cluster seemed to be a comparative easy
> option. But as I understood Jimbo, this is not an option "now". As I
> said above this "now" is part of our problem. Given the work and time
> it needs to find *one* way to spend a lot of our money and given the
> fact that Wikimedia Deutschland not only now has money but will
> probably have much more in the next months and years it would be much
> more effective to work on mid-term plans. I wonder if this is
> possible.

All right. In short, we should try to do some yearly budgeting for next
year. I also wonder if this is possible, but possibly, with a full year
past experience, this might be possible.

>>* paying some travel costs which would otherwise be paid by the
>>Foundation (easy enough probably would be to pay for some speakers to
>>come to wikimania in Germany, but would it be possible for a german
>>chapter to pay travel for Jimbo to Germany to meet with german partners,
>>or for the german chapter to pay travel for Angela to go to South Africa
>>to meet with some possible african partners ?)
>
>
> Yes, we can pay for travel costs (in principle). But I'm not sure what
> the tax office would say if we  spent 10k Euro for travel expenses,
> for people who are not flying from or to Germany or are not somehow
> connected with Wikimedia Deutschland.

Okay. This is why I suggested Angela. She is not a member of the german
association, but definitely flying from Germany.

> BTW: As far as I know Wikimedia Deutschland did agree on paying 50% of
> Tim's ticket for his trip to Berlin in December 2004. We never
> reimbursed the money to the Foundation because we never got a bill :(

Ouch. Right.

>>* Paying for some promotional items (easy enough in german for a
>>conference in Germany, but would it be possible to pay the publishing of
>>an italian-language leaflet for a conference in Belgium for example ?)
>
>
> Yes, we can pay for promotional items (in principle). Unless we don't
> spend huge amounts on this, nobody will ask us, in which language the
> stuff is printed and where and to whom it was given.

We should use this opportunity at next big meetup up in Europe (Fosdem
type ?)

>>* Paying people for certain activities (such as, but non restricted to,
>>development). Could these people be paid if non german ? Could they be
>>paid to work on global issues ? (for example, grant specialist ?)
>
>
> Yes, paying people to improve free software is totally ok, but again,
> this has to be well documented (what project is the developer working
> on?). A grants specialist working abroad would be harder to explain,
> but one in Germany working on grants in which Wikimedia Deutschland is
> involved should be no problem.

For now, I can not think of a wise idea about this, but this is good to
keep in mind.

> In all these discussions we also have to keep in mind that the German
> board is responsible for the money, and this not only in a legal way.
> This also has moral implications. To give an example: Even if it is
> legally okay, I would find it very hard to explain to the German
> donators that *all* of their money has been spent on plane tickets or
> a single development task or something like that.

Agreed

> I would be very happy if we can work together on other mid- or
> long-term ideas to spend our money. And while we are doing this we
> should give some money for some of the things mentioned above.
>
> -- Arne (akl)

I suppose it would be easier as well to spend it on european-projects or
  areas. We probably need to make a second type of budget as well,
involving the chapters. Could not a global budget, with certain expenses
being dedicated to local chapters help getting understanding from the
tax office ?

ermmm, and what about spending some of the money to get an expert in
international organisations help to figure out how to organise all this ?


from_name: Tim 'avatar' Bartel

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Spammer trick - image uploads
	abused

body:
Hi Wikipedians,

Angela wrote:
> I agree with Mark on this. Turning off external linking, if such a
> thing could be made possible, would be much more helpful than
> disabling images.

Tech-view:

I *strongly* advise against this.
This is not, how the WWW works.

You have to rely on referers (very bad) or build really obstruct
cookie-setups.

Bye, avatar.


body:
> Angela wrote:
> > Turning off external linking, if such a
> > thing could be made possible, would be much more helpful than
> > disabling images.

Tim 'avatar' Bartel <wikipedia at computerkultur.org> wrote:

> I *strongly* advise against this.
> This is not, how the WWW works.
>
> You have to rely on referers (very bad) or build really obstruct
> cookie-setups.

Couldn't it work in the same way the Spam Blacklist works and just not
allow saves where the wiki text contains http:// or similar. It
wouldn't have to affect links made with [[square brackets]], so
referrer checking wouldn't be needed. This would be a very easy way to
prevent spam without preventing editing.

Angela.


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
I don't know if web.archive.org is amenable to this sort of thing, but
what if one could do the following:

* [http://deadlink.com Wonderful website] (link dead as of August
2005, available at {{web.archive.org|http://deadlink.com}})

Which would be an auto-linking template? Hopefully the user could
figure all that out.

FF

On 8/22/05, Theo Clarke <wiki at tignosis.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:45:24 +0100, Pawe?'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:
> >>Doesn't a web.archive.org link contain within it the URL of the
> >>original source?
> >>
> >It does.
>
> However, that may not be transparent to an inexperienced user who finds that the link is dead, which is the reason for not replacing the original.  Of course, even as I type this, I realise that the user who cannot recognise the URL within the link is probably too unsophisticated to find an alternative archive.
>
> Theo
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Hi Wikipedians,

Angela wrote:
> Couldn't it work in the same way the Spam Blacklist works and just not
> allow saves where the wiki text contains http:// or similar. It
> wouldn't have to affect links made with [[square brackets]], so
> referrer checking wouldn't be needed. This would be a very easy way to
> prevent spam without preventing editing.

There seems to be a misunderstanding on my or on your side about the topic.

Elian wrote about spammers, who uploaded pics to a wm project (The pics
are now normal images like any other pictures on this project). Now they
send out spam with this images linked. Then you wrote:

> Turning off external linking, if such a thing could be made possible,
would be much more helpful than disabling images.

So I though you speaked about, only showing images, when you are "inside"
a wikimedia project. This is bad.

But if I now read your last reply, it seems you speak about external links
placed in the project. But this is not the problem.

A little bit confused, avatar :-)


from_name: edward molasses

subject: [Wikitech-l] Combining many wiki pages to display as one page

body:
Hello,

I was wondering if there was some way to combine many wiki pages and display
them as one long page? Is there an extension that might do this? I wasn't
able to find anything about it on meta-wiki, but it was difficult to know how
to search for this. Or could anyone suggest where I would start looking to
create this functionality?

Thanks,
Andrew.


from_name: Phroziac

body:
NONE of them are as popular as AOL though.
By the way, I'm on earthlink, and I never get accidently blocked. It's
a pretty good ISP, well, as good as dialup can get probably. :(

On 8/22/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > That would be cutting off a amount of loyal users, of course. But I think it
> > would be advantagous for any AOL users dedicated to Wikipedia just to get a
> > new ISP. I do think there is a good idea in limiting AOL editing: a hefty
> > amount of time and effort by RC patrollers goes into reverting simple
> > vandalism from those ranges.
> >
> > [[User:Bratsche|Ben]]
>
>
> When I'm not at uni I have to use my parents connection which is AOL.
> I'm also sarting to see more ISPs use simular proxy setups to AOL so
> it wont make much difference in the long run.
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
signature


from_name: Delphine Ménard

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Ticket#2005082010002098] About fundraising

body:
On 8/22/05, Donation <donations at wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Passing on a suggestion sent to the board. Has anyone heard of this or have
> any opinion on whether it would be a useful addition to our fundraising page?

> > > Wikipedia is using Paypal for fundraising. May I
> > > suggest that www.sozialbank.de has a very convenient
> > > system for fundraising and probably would accept
> > > Wikipedia foundation as a customer?

It's already the case, trhough the German association.

> > >
> > > At least for european customers they should be able
> > > to offer a web interface where money transfer is
> > > possible immediately.
> >

I looked at the demo and did not exactly understand how this works. It
does seem fairly easy to install. But I'd love to know if it's really
working for Europeans as a whole. For having worked with the
Sozialbank online banking system, I can tell that the international
side of it is seriously lacking.

Can someone speaking better German than I try and axplain the
principle behind the tool, its limitations and advantages?

Best
Delphine
--
~notafish


from_name: Thomas Koll

body:
Am 22.08.2005 um 05:33 schrieb Elisabeth Bauer:
> In the last time we had several cases where spammers uploaded
> images on different wikipedias and used the pictures in html
> emails, trying to sell chairs, grammophones or whatever.
>
> Usually the uploads were the only contributions of said user, and
> the license was missing.
>
> It's maybe worth to consider disabling uploads on the projects
> which don't really need it but can use commons (such as the german
> wikipedia whose image upload policy is entirely compatible with
> commons and especially all the smaller wikis which are not
> constantly watched).

I oppose, there's the possiblity to block outside referrals as it
happened
often enough in the past. Blocking ebay, google, aol, gmx and the bigger
mail-hoster would help enough. A list of commonly used hosters could be
genereated of the user-tables (for the case everybody is to lazy to do
this by hand)

A more technical solution would be to filter those referring from
outside and
add a short text like "released under the GFDL" or the original URL
(which I'd
prefer because licenses differ too much).

My last suggestion is to store informations about outside referrals
(and hide those
from the search engines of course), maybe as admin page with a TOP10
of the last 24h.

And finally a good reason about moving all to commons: Localized
graphics are
only usefull for a single Wikipedia and thus are best kept in this
single Wikipedia.

ciao, tom

--
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
http://www.tomk32.de


body:
Thanks! That's much easier than I thought.

Andrew.

On Monday 22 August 2005 9:58 am, Angela wrote:
> > I was wondering if there was some way to combine many wiki pages and
> > display them as one long page?
>
> You could include the pages on one page using the template syntax:
>
> {{Namespace:Page name}}
>
> or
>
> {{:Page in the main namespace}}
>
>
> Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: geni

body:
> That would be cutting off a amount of loyal users, of course. But I think it
> would be advantagous for any AOL users dedicated to Wikipedia just to get a
> new ISP. I do think there is a good idea in limiting AOL editing: a hefty
> amount of time and effort by RC patrollers goes into reverting simple
> vandalism from those ranges.
>
> [[User:Bratsche|Ben]]

When I'm not at uni I have to use my parents connection which is AOL.
I'm also sarting to see more ISPs use simular proxy setups to AOL so
it wont make much difference in the long run.

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Whateverpedia

body:
> I wish RfC worked better, but how many people '''want''' to edit
> a conflicted article?

At least it means you are editing an article people care about
--
geni


from_name: Theo Clarke

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:45:24 +0100, Pawe??'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:
>>?Doesn't a web.archive.org link contain within it the URL of the
>>?original source?
>>
>?It does.

However, that may not be transparent to an inexperienced user who finds that the link is dead, which is the reason for not replacing the original.  Of course, even as I type this, I realise that the user who cannot recognise the URL within the link is probably too unsophisticated to find an alternative archive.

Theo


from_name: Jody Fulford

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikigame

body:
    I have an Idea for a Wikigame that perhaps, with
your resources and skills, you could develop and
market to generate income to help finance the Wiki
Foundation. The idea is a gift to the foundation,
should you decide to accept it, free of any
encumbrances, though I would like to be credited for
the original idea.
   I thought of the game while exploring the "random
article" feature. I consecutively generate two random
articles and attempt to navigate from one to the other
using the links in the articles.(e.g Black
Guards->Ship in a Bottle(TGN episode)) Of course it
doesn't work 100% of the time but that can be worked
out by limiting  the random generation to articles
that will link. I find it educational as well as
entertaining in that it requires the player to read
the article and formulate the best route to the
destination.
   Once you begin playing with the idea you will see
that there is a lot of room for developing software to
facilitate several variations of this theme: A
solitary mode with it's own scoring system and a
multiplayer mode. The software could ensure that
pathways exist from the starting point to the
destination article.
   Various scoring systems are possible. Points
awarded for time, shortest route, points deducted for
backtracks, loops, rereading the destination article
and so on.
   I believe that with a little work this idea could
be developed into a marketable form that could
generate income for the Foundation and allow it to
become self pamatronizing(a word I use to avoid the
gender specific connotations of patronizing).
    If you consider this to be a potentially viable
concept I would be more than happy to participate in a
discussion group concerning it's development.
                              Sincerely
                              Jody Fulford

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikigame


from_name: valdelli at bluemail.ch

body:
My suggestion is to verify at first if this society can work outside the
German territory because also in Italy there is a very powerful system of
payement but it is valid on in Italy and only for Italian societies.

Ilario

>-- Messaggio originale --
>Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:13:44 +0000
>To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>From: Donation <donations at wikimedia.org>
>Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Ticket#2005082010002098] About fundraising
>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
>
>
>Passing on a suggestion sent to the board. Has anyone heard of this or have
>any opinion on whether it would be a useful addition to our fundraising
page?
>
>Angela.
>
>> ---- Forwarded message ---
>>
>> >
>> > Wikipedia is using Paypal for fundraising. May I
>> > suggest that www.sozialbank.de has a very convenient
>> > system for fundraising and probably would accept
>> > Wikipedia foundation as a customer?
>> > Sozialbank is a bank especially for non-profit
>> > institutions and would be much better suited for
>> > a convincing foundraise of a non-profit.
>> >
>> > At least for european customers they should be able
>> > to offer a web interface where money transfer is
>> > possible immediately.
>>
>---- End forwarded message ---
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Whateverpedia

body:
On 8/22/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I wish RfC worked better, but how many people '''want''' to edit
> > a conflicted article?
>
> At least it means you are editing an article people care about
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Coombes, Andrew

subject: [Wikitech-l] adding a header and footer to the screen

body:
Hi folks,

Hope this is the right list for this.

I am using MediaWiki for part of a corporate intranet.  I am only allowed to do this if I include the standard header and footer to each screen giving people access to the rest of the intranet. I'm also not allowed to use frames.

Is there a simple way of adding html code to the top and bottom of each screen without too much PHP coding?  I have looked at the various sections on customisation, hacking and development, but they all seem to involve developing modules etc.  Have I missed something?

Regards,

Andrew


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Arkady Rose stated for the record:

> What had me giggling was the line about 'the term "Wiki" refers to
> "Wicca"' - these guys really do not have a clue about what a wiki really
> is or the origins of the word, do they? Heh. So next will we be accused
> of secretly running a coven? Oh, no, wait - don't tell me, that's the
> Secret Cabal of Administrators, right?

There are twelve of us on the ArbComm, and Jimbo makes thirt-- oh, wait,
I shouldn't have said that.  THERE ARE NO SECRET MEMBERS OF THE CABAL.
FNORD.

Crap.  Now I'm going to have to use the Orbital Mind Control Lasers to
erase their knowledge of the Secret 33rd-Degree Arbiters....

--
  Sean Barrett     | Awright, men; dat is enough now of
  sean at epoptic.com | t'eory. --Tom Paxton's drill sergeant


from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Sadly, I appear to no longer be in control of Wikipedia; it turns out the
chief Jew is Jimbo himself:
[http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187311]  They also appear
to have figured out anonymous proxies, TOR proxies, and dailup IPs, and have
advised their use (and used them with some success) to get around blocks.

Oh, and regarding me, "That Jayjg guy is a real partisan Jewish douchebag,
and he seems omnipresent."  That one really hurt.  Omnipresent?  Is that a
euphemism for fat? :-O

Jay.


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Spammer trick - image uploads abused

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> I agree with what you said about the German Wikipedia, however:
<snip>

Please address replies to foundation-l as Elian requested.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary and improper article dating

body:
steve v wrote:

>The Iraq War article has recently been formed to
>consolodate the term under something a bit more
>substantive than a disambiguation. There remains the
>issue of unnecessary dating of events, where such
>events are uniquely enough referenced and titled to
>warrant more common terms. There are thousands of
>cases where we use the common term instead of a more
>official term, so why then is there a persistence in
>using a unique standard using titles prefaced with a
>date?
>
>
The problem is that it isn't always agreed when something is "uniquely
enough referenced and titled to warrant more common terms", especially
taking a historical view.  Many news organizations today speak of the
"London terrorist attacks", for example, but obviously Wikipedia needs
to use a more specific article title since there have been multiple
London terrorist attacks over the years.

-Mark


body:
On 8/22/05, Phroziac <phroziac at gmail.com> wrote:
> NONE of them are as popular as AOL though.
> By the way, I'm on earthlink, and I never get accidently blocked. It's
> a pretty good ISP, well, as good as dialup can get probably. :(

I've had vandles come in from there. I did considering doing a range
blcok but decided it would upset too many people.

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
>From: "Zachary Harden" <zscout370 at hotmail.com>
>
>Well, personally, this is going to fail. Not because of their lack of tech
>skills, nor from lack of users.

I think it would be more likely to fail due to the many obvious failings of
its proponents.  See, for example, the posts of JohnJoyTree in that thread,
the only one there who appears to have a clue.

Jay.


from_name: Caroline Ford

body:
This looks like the debate on whether Moldovan is a language or just
Romanian.

There have been edit wars on the English Wikipedia on this very point. I
think this needs careful investigation to make sure this wasn't an invasion
from the Romanian wiki.

Caroline/Secretlodnon

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Wikipedia Romania
(Ronline)
Sent: 22 August 2005 09:55
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Change of Interwiki name for Moldovan language

Hi, I would like to know how it's possible to change the name of the
interwiki link for the Moldovan language from the current
"молдовеняс&#108
2;э"
to
"молдовеняс&#108
2;э
(чириликэ)".
I talked to Node and he said I should contact a developer, so if there are
any developers reading this and you have some spare time, I would be very
thankful if you could change it in this way for mo.wiki.

The reason behind the change is because such a change was specified in the
Ronline proposal that was approved by the majority of Moldovan Wikipedia
users for the future of the wiki.

See:
http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ronline/Propunere#en:Proposal

The explanation is:
"Mo.wikipedia.org will be linked from other Wikipedias using the name
"молдовеняс&#108
2;э
(чириликэ)".
This is to signify that the link is to a Moldovan
(Cyrillic) page and that Moldovan is usually written in Latin script."

It was basically a compromise after a huge round of negotiations over at the
Moldovan Wikipedia.

Thanks,

Ronline

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: 19/08/2005


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Request for a Wikipedia in Waray-Waray (Samar-Leyte
	Visayan)

body:
To the developers:

I would like to formally request the creation of a Wikipedia in Waray-Waray (also known as Waray, Samar-Leyte Visayan, Samare?o etc.). I am a native speaker of the language.  There are nine votes of support for the proposed wiki.

The details of the proposal are at the "Requests for new languages" page on Meta at:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Waray-Waray_.28Samar-Leyte_Visayan.29_.289.29

There is also an existing Test-Wikipedia for Waray at the following address:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/war/

The bulk of the translation, editing, writing of articles for the Waray wiki will be done by myself and other native speakers.

Sincerely yours,

Harvey Fiji

en:User:Harvzsf
ceb:User:Harvzs
meta:User:Harvzsf
es:User:Harvzsf
tl:User:Harvzsf

---------------------------------
 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:
> The Foundation's server operations people should require that
> every new software feature can be monitored and enabled or
> disabled on its own.  This is an architectural issue.  Good
> software performance can save large investments in hardware. And
> even more, smart software can improve editor productivity.

This is already the case; we're already very resistant to new features
or changes that may impact performance. This has been a strong factor in
attempts to slim down the software and is an overriding factor in
acceptance of new code. A number of auxiliary features have been
selectively enabled for small wikis only.

Is there something in particular you'd like to see added to our process?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:
> The Foundation's server operations people should require that
> every new software feature can be monitored and enabled or
> disabled on its own.  This is an architectural issue.  Good
> software performance can save large investments in hardware. And
> even more, smart software can improve editor productivity.

This is already the case; we're already very resistant to new features
or changes that may impact performance. This has been a strong factor in
attempts to slim down the software and is an overriding factor in
acceptance of new code. A number of auxiliary features have been
selectively enabled for small wikis only.

Is there something in particular you'd like to see added to our process?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:
> The Foundation's server operations people should require that
> every new software feature can be monitored and enabled or
> disabled on its own.  This is an architectural issue.  Good
> software performance can save large investments in hardware. And
> even more, smart software can improve editor productivity.

This is already the case; we're already very resistant to new features
or changes that may impact performance. This has been a strong factor in
attempts to slim down the software and is an overriding factor in
acceptance of new code. A number of auxiliary features have been
selectively enabled for small wikis only.

Is there something in particular you'd like to see added to our process?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:
> The Foundation's server operations people should require that
> every new software feature can be monitored and enabled or
> disabled on its own.  This is an architectural issue.  Good
> software performance can save large investments in hardware. And
> even more, smart software can improve editor productivity.

This is already the case; we're already very resistant to new features
or changes that may impact performance. This has been a strong factor in
attempts to slim down the software and is an overriding factor in
acceptance of new code. A number of auxiliary features have been
selectively enabled for small wikis only.

Is there something in particular you'd like to see added to our process?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
On 8/22/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/08/05, Theo Clarke <wiki at tignosis.com> wrote:
>
> > >Can't we replace such links with links to web.archive.org then?
> >
> > Adding a link to web.archive.org is appropriate and desirable but
> > replacement destroys the link to the original source, which will be
> > needed if/when web.archive.org dies.
>
> Doesn't a web.archive.org link contain within it the URL of the original source?

If the site is dead, and there is no archive of it on the internet
archive (or anywhere else presumably), why would you want the link
anyway?

--gkhan


from_name: wmf at timshell.com

subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising meeting September 17

body:
I have scheduled an open meeting for September 17 to discuss lessons
learned in the current drive that can help us improve the next drive.

Everyone is welcome to attend.  If we arrive at any good ideas, these will
be conveyed to the Board and officers, who are meeting on September 18.

The meeting will be at 18:00 UTC in the #wikimedia-meeting channel on IRC.

Add your comments and suggestions to the meeting page, which can be found
here:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2005

Tim Shell


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Hi Caroline,

Indeed, I would characterise much of the activity as an "invasion"
from the Romanian Wiki -- most of the voters are long-standing members
of that Wiki, who call their language "Romanian", have lived most of
their lives in Romania, and some of whom do not believe there should
be a Moldovan Wikipedia at all.

However, all solutions which won in that vote, were also voted for by
the Moldovan or two who voted, including the change of the Interwiki
link name.

I personally don't have a problem with the interwiki title being
changed, but is refreshing to me to see somebody who is finally
actually interested in the "invasion" of mo.wiki.

Only one of the Romanians who voted, Ronline, has contributed more
than a token amount to articles on the Moldovan Wikipedia. All the
others have done is made a couple of edits to the article namespace
(without adding any content, just wikification or in one case,
correcting a date), most of their contributions are to talkpages where
they have constantly criticised the Moldovan Wikipedia.

Throughout this conflict, I have been called various names by these
people (excluding Ronline, who has been very polite) -- Stalinist, KGB
agent, fag, terrorist, idiot, communist...

While some of those aren't apparently insults or perjoratives in most
situations (fag, terrorist, and idiot being the exceptions), in this
particular situation, they most certainly are.

Some of the Romanians continue to try to characterise the Moldovan
Wikipedia as something that I want to work on alone, and that is
mostly my work. This is certainly not true -- there are currently at
least 3 contributors in Moldova, although only one of them is very
active now: Vertaler, Dmitriid, and Gabix. The majority of the current
content has been contributed by Gabix, or an anonymous user who I
think is the same person as him.

I think the current solution is fine, but I do think that what
happened there was pretty unfair -- should a group of en.wikipedians
be allowed to go and start criticising the Scots Wikipedia on its
talkpages, and then hold a vote a month later on whether or not it
should be deleted?

Admittedly, Romanian and Moldovan in their written forms are much much
closer than Scots and English (the main reason for a separate
Wikipedia is that in the Pridniestran Moldovan Republic, Cyrillic is
the official script for writing Moldovan, and in the Republic of
Moldova, it is still widely used by peasants in rural areas, and some
adults are more comfortable with it, especially the elderly), but I
think the situation is comparable for other reasons: most Moldovans
can read and write their language in Cyrillic, whether or not they do
it on a daily basis, yet perhaps only one or two of the Romanians who
"invaded" were any good at writing the language in Cyrillic.

I think the main problem is the fact that only one of these people
made more than the most minimal of contributions.

Mark

On 22/08/05, Caroline Ford <caroline at secretlondon.me.uk> wrote:
> This looks like the debate on whether Moldovan is a language or just
> Romanian.
>
> There have been edit wars on the English Wikipedia on this very point. I
> think this needs careful investigation to make sure this wasn't an invasion
> from the Romanian wiki.
>
> Caroline/Secretlodnon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Wikipedia Romania
> (Ronline)
> Sent: 22 August 2005 09:55
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Change of Interwiki name for Moldovan language
>
> Hi, I would like to know how it's possible to change the name of the
> interwiki link for the Moldovan language from the current
> "молдовеняс&#108
> 2;э"
> to
> "молдовеняс&#108
> 2;э
> (чириликэ)".
> I talked to Node and he said I should contact a developer, so if there are
> any developers reading this and you have some spare time, I would be very
> thankful if you could change it in this way for mo.wiki.
>
> The reason behind the change is because such a change was specified in the
> Ronline proposal that was approved by the majority of Moldovan Wikipedia
> users for the future of the wiki.
>
> See:
> http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ronline/Propunere#en:Proposal
>
> The explanation is:
> "Mo.wikipedia.org will be linked from other Wikipedias using the name
> "молдовеняс&#108
> 2;э
> (чириликэ)".
> This is to signify that the link is to a Moldovan
> (Cyrillic) page and that Moldovan is usually written in Latin script."
>
> It was basically a compromise after a huge round of negotiations over at the
> Moldovan Wikipedia.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ronline
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: 19/08/2005
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Ryan Norton

subject: [WikiEN-l] A cry to save the Asperger's Syndrome page

body:
Hi,

This was an otherwise great article that as of late (the past 3 days)
has seen excessive edit warring and POV entries injected into it. Now
it has been (predictably) set up for removal as a featured article.

All of this is due to a single user, Tern, who continually injects this
passage

"These things illustrate how AS appears to correlate with child
authorship, hence a number of aspie communities have a concerned
awareness of the terrible injustice an aspie child can suffer when the
[http://www.phad-fife.org.uk/recognition.html chance to achieve child
authorship] is unfairly wrecked by high-handed [[school]] pressures."

and links to a very controversial site which nearly everyone else
describes as a "hate site", which other editors are editing anonymously
to avoid being listed on.

The link above in question is merely the rantings of a 14-year-old
person with Asperger's Syndrome who could not get a scifi book
published (and some other editors also claim that Tern is the person
referenced there)- so initially users (before I came in the debate)
just reverted the passage and noted on the talk page that it needed to
be reworded to be less POV and needed a better reference.  However, as
evidenced by the history page
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/
index.php?title=Asperger%27s_syndrome&curid=37556&action=history
Tern continued to revert back to his version many, many times against
MANY other editors who reached their 3 revert limit VERY quickly
(reverts often happen within 10 minutes!). So, out of desperation the
other users attempted to reword the passage in order to be less pov and
accurate, including myself - however, this was not enough and Tern
continued to revert back to his version.

Some of his edit summaries have been very hurtful and involve personal
attacks, such as
"sysops look how this rv of haters' vandalism gives new consensual
edits to both items"
"the last attack made here, the public can see is blatant personally
malicious bullying against wikpedia's rules and illegal in intending to
suppress prevention of child cruelty"
"creatively revert the llast absurdity, cos it's obviously just an
irresponsible personal insult and not verified"

Tern has also accused other editors of "hurting children" on the talk
page.

Tern has violated 3RR at least 3 times, and depending on how you want
to do the math many more times
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/
3RR#User:Tern

I'm just a participant in the war and have reached my 3RR limit twice
already, and I've filed the 3RR against Tern.  I WANT to work with the
user, but the user needs to calm down and discuss with more sense about
what he wants to do with the page, not just revert other good faith
editors. I've tried notifying two admins without response on the issue
also - and one admin - Zscout370 - simply voted to remove the article
from FA status and not get in the debate with the user.

I'm the one who brought the Autism article to its Featured Article
status and used this article as a reference more or less on how to do
it, so its really a pity to see this happen - I'd hate to see it lose
its status because of a war with one user.

Thanks,
RN


body:
> If the article is still going to be full of edit wars

This is the only edit war ive ever seen on the article - although I've
only been here 2 months or so

> and have that POV tag at the top of the page

Which Tern put there!

Ryan


body:
> Ok, so I voted to have the FA status removed from the article.Also, if
> you payed attention,

And I did realize this Z and I thank you for your contributions, but I
have to ask - why is this user not banned for 24 hours?  Is it because
he claims "injustice" etc. so admins fear getting involved?

Ryan


body:
On Monday, August 22, 2005, at 06:21  PM, Zachary Harden wrote:

> I just got involved. I was being asked to block the user before in
> IRC, but as you can tell, he always edits by using IP's, so the likely
> hood of the block working is zero to none, closer to none.

I'm not sure what you mean - from the 3RR the 3rd violation - reverts
2-6 (5 reverts) are all by Tern logged in as Tern.

Thanks,
RN


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
JAY JG wrote:

> Oh, and regarding me, "That Jayjg guy is a real partisan Jewish
> douchebag, and he seems omnipresent."  That one really hurt.
> Omnipresent?  Is that a euphemism for fat?

Come now, it's an attribute of deity (depending on one's theological
position), and you should be flattered that they recognize your natural
superiority.

--Michael Snow

> :-O
>
> Jay.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia
> From:
> Arkady Rose <arkady at arkady.org.uk>
> Date:
> Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:46:03 +0100
> To:
> English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>
> To:
> English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>
>
>JAY JG wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sadly, I appear to no longer be in control of Wikipedia; it turns out
>>the chief Jew is Jimbo himself:
>>[http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187311]  They also
>>appear to have figured out anonymous proxies, TOR proxies, and dailup
>>IPs, and have advised their use (and used them with some success) to
>>get around blocks.
>>
>>Oh, and regarding me, "That Jayjg guy is a real partisan Jewish
>>douchebag, and he seems omnipresent."  That one really hurt.
>>Omnipresent?  Is that a euphemism for fat? :-O
>>
>>
>
>What had me giggling was the line about 'the term "Wiki" refers to
>"Wicca"' - these guys really do not have a clue about what a wiki really
>is or the origins of the word, do they? Heh. So next will we be accused
>of secretly running a coven? Oh, no, wait - don't tell me, that's the
>Secret Cabal of Administrators, right?
>
>Of course that would then lead to questions of whether it's a
>Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Lycian or Eclectiv coven - but hey, these are
>neo-nazis who don't let a little thing like religious accuracy get in
>their way. We're all devil worshippers and Jimbo sacrifices babies at
>the clambake every third Tuesday of the month, right?
>
>;-)
>
>- Arkady (who happens to be Wiccan....)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [WikiEN-l] An admin misused his privilages to block me...
> From:
> MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:58:49 +0200
> To:
> English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>
> To:
> English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>
>
>I've seen a lot of vandalism coming from schools and universities, but
>I've yet to see vandalism from the uni I attend.
>
>--Mgm
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [WikiEN-l] An admin misused his privilages to block me...
> From:
> Theresa Knott <theresaknott at gmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:08:06 +0100
> To:
> English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>
> To:
> English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>
>
>On 8/22/05, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I've seen a lot of vandalism coming from schools and universities, but
>>I've yet to see vandalism from the uni I attend.
>>
>>
>
>Possible conclusions
>
>Students from your university are exceptionally well behaved.
>Your university is very small.
>No one from your university bothers to do research on the web and so
>has never come across wikipedia. (except you)
>Everyone from your university (except you of course) is too stupid to
>work out that "edit this page" means they can edit a page.
>Your university is not connected to the Internet.
>
>Takes yer pick ;-)
>
>Theresa
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia
> From:
> "Zachary Harden" <zscout370 at hotmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:20:20 +0000
> To:
> wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>
> To:
> wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>
>
> Well, personally, this is going to fail. Not because of their lack of
> tech skills, nor from lack of users. It is lack of dough. From looking
> at what Wikimedia needs to raise and see how much they spend on just
> running the sites, I do not think Stormfront would have enough dough
> to pull it off. And most companies will probably not waste their time
> or money dealing with neo-Nazis. It's very, very un-PC for companies
> to deal with fascists.
>
> Regards,
>
> Zachary Harden
>
>> From: Arkady Rose <arkady at arkady.org.uk>
>> Reply-To: arkady at arkady.org.uk,English Wikipedia
>> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia
>> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:46:03 +0100
>>
>> JAY JG wrote:
>>
>> > Sadly, I appear to no longer be in control of Wikipedia; it turns out
>> > the chief Jew is Jimbo himself:
>> > [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187311]  They also
>> > appear to have figured out anonymous proxies, TOR proxies, and dailup
>> > IPs, and have advised their use (and used them with some success) to
>> > get around blocks.
>> >
>> > Oh, and regarding me, "That Jayjg guy is a real partisan Jewish
>> > douchebag, and he seems omnipresent."  That one really hurt.
>> > Omnipresent?  Is that a euphemism for fat? :-O
>>
>> What had me giggling was the line about 'the term "Wiki" refers to
>> "Wicca"' - these guys really do not have a clue about what a wiki really
>> is or the origins of the word, do they? Heh. So next will we be accused
>> of secretly running a coven? Oh, no, wait - don't tell me, that's the
>> Secret Cabal of Administrators, right?
>>
>> Of course that would then lead to questions of whether it's a
>> Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Lycian or Eclectiv coven - but hey, these are
>> neo-nazis who don't let a little thing like religious accuracy get in
>> their way. We're all devil worshippers and Jimbo sacrifices babies at
>> the clambake every third Tuesday of the month, right?
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> - Arkady (who happens to be Wiccan....)
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [WikiEN-l] Unnecessary and improper article dating
> From:
> Delirium <delirium at hackish.org>
> Date:
> Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:21:33 -0400
> To:
> English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>
> To:
> English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>
>
> steve v wrote:
>
>> The Iraq War article has recently been formed to
>> consolodate the term under something a bit more
>> substantive than a disambiguation. There remains the
>> issue of unnecessary dating of events, where such
>> events are uniquely enough referenced and titled to
>> warrant more common terms. There are thousands of
>> cases where we use the common term instead of a more
>> official term, so why then is there a persistence in
>> using a unique standard using titles prefaced with a
>> date?
>>
> The problem is that it isn't always agreed when something is "uniquely
> enough referenced and titled to warrant more common terms", especially
> taking a historical view.  Many news organizations today speak of the
> "London terrorist attacks", for example, but obviously Wikipedia needs
> to use a more specific article title since there have been multiple
> London terrorist attacks over the years.
>
> -Mark
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia
> From:
> "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
> Date:
> Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:27:48 -0400
> To:
> wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>
> To:
> wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>
>
>> From: "Zachary Harden" <zscout370 at hotmail.com>
>>
>> Well, personally, this is going to fail. Not because of their lack of
>> tech skills, nor from lack of users.
>
>
> I think it would be more likely to fail due to the many obvious
> failings of its proponents.  See, for example, the posts of
> JohnJoyTree in that thread, the only one there who appears to have a
> clue.
>
> Jay.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia
> From:
> Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> Date:
> Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:32:31 -0700
> To:
> arkady at arkady.org.uk, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>
> To:
> arkady at arkady.org.uk, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>
>
> Arkady Rose stated for the record:
>
>> What had me giggling was the line about 'the term "Wiki" refers to
>> "Wicca"' - these guys really do not have a clue about what a wiki really
>> is or the origins of the word, do they? Heh. So next will we be accused
>> of secretly running a coven? Oh, no, wait - don't tell me, that's the
>> Secret Cabal of Administrators, right?
>
>
> There are twelve of us on the ArbComm, and Jimbo makes thirt-- oh,
> wait, I shouldn't have said that.  THERE ARE NO SECRET MEMBERS OF THE
> CABAL. FNORD.
>
> Crap.  Now I'm going to have to use the Orbital Mind Control Lasers to
> erase their knowledge of the Secret 33rd-Degree Arbiters....
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


from_name: Rob

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
It's either block him now or block him later.  He's
not interested in NPOV or building an encyclopedia or
anything else we value.  He's a Nazi and all he wants
to do is fight the Jews. Perhaps his edits look fine
now, but there's always the chance he is engaging in
or will engage in a less obvious form of racist
vandalism by subtly skewing articles.  Whatever it is,
it will happen and it will escalate.  On SF they are
quite openly talking about ways to infiltrate
Wikipedia so they can skew the content the way they
want it skewed.  That should be enough to ban them on
sight here.

Gamaliel

On 8/23/05, Theresa Knott <theresaknott at gmail.com>
wrote:
> He was blocked for being a Nazi?
>
> I've looked at his edits (briefly) and can't see
anything that he's
> actually done wrong.
>
> Theresa
>

Oh here we go. This is his stormfront post
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225536

"A cabal of Jews and their liberal-gentile "useful
idiots" are trying
to take over Wikipedia"
"The gang of kikes at Wikipedia managed to knock the
site Jew
Watch off the top of the Google search results page
last year"
"Don't let these vampire rodents pull
one more media outlet from out of our hands."

If he said that on Wikipedia I'd definately block him
for it. As it is
he said it off Wikipedia. I'm not comfotable about
blocking someone
under those circumstances.

Theresa

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Angela

body:
> I was wondering if there was some way to combine many wiki pages and display
> them as one long page?

You could include the pages on one page using the template syntax:

{{Namespace:Page name}}

or

{{:Page in the main namespace}}

Angela.


from_name: Thomas Gries

body:
Angela,

I could offer you such an extension soon (I use this since one year; it
concatenates all pages where the page title matches a certain "regular
expression")

Tom

Wikinaut

Angela schrieb:

>>I was wondering if there was some way to combine many wiki pages and display
>>them as one long page?
>>
>>
>
>You could include the pages on one page using the template syntax:
>
>{{Namespace:Page name}}
>
>or
>
>{{:Page in the main namespace}}
>
>
>Angela.
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
The advantage to banning him now is that it prevents
subtle skewing of articles or skewing of articles on
obscure topics, both which may go unnoticed and
uncorrected.  It also saves a lot of stress and sweat
for those editors who have to deal with him until he
inevitably gets banned for something.  Neither of
these will be that detrimental to the project as a
whole in the long run, but they are not negligible
effects.

Gamaliel

Theresa Knott theresaknott at gmail.com
Tue Aug 23 01:57:07 UTC 2005

We could ban him then. Is there any particular hurry?
Why don't we
wait until he does something wrong and then ban him?

(Note that I'm playing devils advocate here. I'm not
concerned enough
to go and unblock him)

Theresa

____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


from_name: Zachary Harden

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
Well, personally, this is going to fail. Not because of their lack of tech
skills, nor from lack of users. It is lack of dough. From looking at what
Wikimedia needs to raise and see how much they spend on just running the
sites, I do not think Stormfront would have enough dough to pull it off. And
most companies will probably not waste their time or money dealing with
neo-Nazis. It's very, very un-PC for companies to deal with fascists.

Regards,

Zachary Harden

>From: Arkady Rose <arkady at arkady.org.uk>
>Reply-To: arkady at arkady.org.uk,English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia
>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:46:03 +0100
>
>JAY JG wrote:
>
> > Sadly, I appear to no longer be in control of Wikipedia; it turns out
> > the chief Jew is Jimbo himself:
> > [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187311]  They also
> > appear to have figured out anonymous proxies, TOR proxies, and dailup
> > IPs, and have advised their use (and used them with some success) to
> > get around blocks.
> >
> > Oh, and regarding me, "That Jayjg guy is a real partisan Jewish
> > douchebag, and he seems omnipresent."  That one really hurt.
> > Omnipresent?  Is that a euphemism for fat? :-O
>
>What had me giggling was the line about 'the term "Wiki" refers to
>"Wicca"' - these guys really do not have a clue about what a wiki really
>is or the origins of the word, do they? Heh. So next will we be accused
>of secretly running a coven? Oh, no, wait - don't tell me, that's the
>Secret Cabal of Administrators, right?
>
>Of course that would then lead to questions of whether it's a
>Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Lycian or Eclectiv coven - but hey, these are
>neo-nazis who don't let a little thing like religious accuracy get in
>their way. We're all devil worshippers and Jimbo sacrifices babies at
>the clambake every third Tuesday of the month, right?
>
>;-)
>
>- Arkady (who happens to be Wiccan....)
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: ABCD

body:
Looking at the User_talk: pages for IPs from my school, there are only
3, 2 one-time vandals, and 1 simple welcome message, all from
September of last year.  Then again, it is a small school.

ABCD

On 8/22/05, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've seen a lot of vandalism coming from schools and universities, but
> I've yet to see vandalism from the uni I attend.
>
> --Mgm


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: ASINs and ISBNs

body:
On 8/22/05, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/22/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 22/08/05, Theo Clarke <wiki at tignosis.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >Can't we replace such links with links to web.archive.org then?
> > >
> > > Adding a link to web.archive.org is appropriate and desirable but
> > > replacement destroys the link to the original source, which will be
> > > needed if/when web.archive.org dies.
> >
> > Doesn't a web.archive.org link contain within it the URL of the original source?
>
> If the site is dead, and there is no archive of it on the internet
> archive (or anywhere else presumably), why would you want the link
> anyway?
>
> --gkhan

You might want it in case the site comes back up (as has been known to happen).

-- ABCD


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] <includeonly> and <noinclude>

body:
On 22/08/05, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> I wrote a feature at Wikimania and forgot to announce it outside that
> audience. It's live now on Wikimedia websites. The feature is the
> ability to control template inclusion by the use of <noinclude> and
> <includeonly> tags.

w00t! I've added a mention of this at
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/706 and
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/835 which discuss exactly this kind of
thing, and will play with it a bit later on [to see if I can break it
;)].

Much praise and thanks due as always!

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Arkady Rose

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: A neo-Nazi wikipedia

body:
JAY JG wrote:

> Sadly, I appear to no longer be in control of Wikipedia; it turns out
> the chief Jew is Jimbo himself:
> [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187311]  They also
> appear to have figured out anonymous proxies, TOR proxies, and dailup
> IPs, and have advised their use (and used them with some success) to
> get around blocks.
>
> Oh, and regarding me, "That Jayjg guy is a real partisan Jewish
> douchebag, and he seems omnipresent."  That one really hurt.
> Omnipresent?  Is that a euphemism for fat? :-O

What had me giggling was the line about 'the term "Wiki" refers to
"Wicca"' - these guys really do not have a clue about what a wiki really
is or the origins of the word, do they? Heh. So next will we be accused
of secretly running a coven? Oh, no, wait - don't tell me, that's the
Secret Cabal of Administrators, right?

Of course that would then lead to questions of whether it's a
Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Lycian or Eclectiv coven - but hey, these are
neo-nazis who don't let a little thing like religious accuracy get in
their way. We're all devil worshippers and Jimbo sacrifices babies at
the clambake every third Tuesday of the month, right?

;-)

- Arkady (who happens to be Wiccan....)