from_name: Delirium

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Mis-use of donated money by Wikipedia
	user	"Neutrality".

body:
Rick wrote:

>Legal threats are grounds for immediate blocking anyway, so you've just sunk yourself.
>
I don't see an actual legal threat.  He said he believes there was a law
broken, but did not threaten to sue over it.  He threatened to make a
formal complaint to The Wikimedia Foundation, but not to the court system.

-Mark


list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews demo launches!

body:
http://demo.wikinews.org/

After the successful wikinews vote
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Vote

the board has discussed and decided to move forward with this project!

In order to continue to work towards as broad a community consensus as
possible, we are launching this at http://demo.wikinews.org/ and
invite all interested parties (particularly the "no" voters) to come
and help work on the site.

We will be keeping the site demo-only until November 22 at least, and
at that point evaluating the next step.  (Probably to launch
en.wikinews.org)

The demo has not yet been publicised widely, and my hope is that an
extended demo might convince those who voted against the project to
change their views, or to come and influence the project now in a
direction that overcomes or alleviates the legitimate objections that
have been raised.

This will also give people more of a chance to discuss the proposed
policies before the site goes live.

The one thing I want to personally stress right now: this is at this
point a pure wiki.  We can make of it what we wish.  All of the
proposed policies are just that: proposed policies, and we should
strive to organically create policies that solve actual problems as
they arise, rather than trying to a priori make a lot of rules that
could constrain us in the early days.  This formula worked well for
wikipedia: common sense and flexibility.

Be Bold.

--Jimbo

--
"La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews demo launches!


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!


list: wikien-l

from_name: J.F. de Wolff

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WP:3RR

body:
There is one very crucial problem with the 3RR, which needs to be taken
into consideration by the sysop who is banning.
Sometimes particular articles attract several edit warriors, and often it's
two or three against one. If that one person "uses up" his three reverts,
the others still have several to go before they are also banned.
How can we avoid an unequality like this from happening? I otherwise warmly
endorse the 3RR.

Jfdwolff


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WP:3RR

body:
I think we'll have much bigger problems if we selectively enforce the
3RR.  But I agree we'll likely have problems with a rigidly enforced
one.

Anthony

> I suggest that there will most likely be problems with rigidly
> enforcing the 3RR, but I'm sure we can find solutions to those too,
> and I think the new problems (if there indeed are any) will be better
> than the current situation of some looney getting away with insanely
> repeatedly reverting.
>
> Zoney


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: MultiHosting from single source

body:
On Nov 14, 2004, at 6:55 PM, Mark Constable wrote:
> The ideal, for me, would be that a single SIMPLE index.php
> dropped into any on-web doc root pulls up a unique full working
> instance of MediaWiki. That 99.9% of the code works properly
> from an off-web includes area and, but not so importantly, that
> on-web CSS and image requirements can come from some default
> initial domain so that nothing other than the index.php and a
> LocalSettings.php are required in any vhost webfolder...
>
> <?php
>  require './LocalSettings.php';
>  require 'mediawiki.php';
> ?>

What's stopping that from working?

> The simplest minimum, without worrying
> about a default webhost for images and stylesheets, is...
>
>  LocalSettings.php
>  images/
>  index.php
>  redirect.php@ (a link -> index.php)
>  stylesheets/
>  tmp/ (was autocreated)

Neither images/ nor stylesheets/ should be necessary if you don't want
them there; you can set the on-disk directories for each arbitrarily
and give them arbitrary URL path prefixes from LocalSettings.php. I'm
not sure what the tmp directory is for?

index.php, redirect.php, and LocalSettings.php can be symbolic links to
a central holding area if you like.

For that matter, since none of these files are domain-specific you
don't actually need 4000 directories with 4000 copies for 4000 domains.
Your LocalSettings.php (or whatever you load up from there) can set up
the appropriate configuration based on the virtual server's hostname or
environment variables set from Apache.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Rowan Collins

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Mis-use of donated money by Wikipedia user
	"Neutrality".

body:
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:29:11 -0800, wikiuser at cyber-rights.net
<wikiuser at cyber-rights.net> wrote:
> FURTHER He's blocked me, and 350 other computers, for a month with
> no
> justification whatsoever.

Which "350 other computers" do you mean? Do you mean that you are
behind a proxy of some kind, and that other people will be using the
same IP address as you? This is an unfortunate consequence of the
technical nature of the Internet, and there is little the management
of *any* website can do about it: if it allows anonymous or
near-anonymous contributions, and wants to block genuinely undesirable
users (including those cases more blatantly anti-social than yours),
it *will* end up blocking innocent users behind the same proxies from
time to time.

> for
> mis-using his position, and the $50,000 donated,

In what way does blocking a user make use of any of the donated money?
Do you mean that the donation of money gives everyone the right to use
the Wikimedia projects in any way they see fit? This is not an
experiment in anarchy, it is a serious attempt to create something, so
regardless of whether they are applied "fairly" (and in this case, I
see no evidence that they were not) the use of rules, and a social and
technical structure for enforcing those rules, is not only *compatible
with* but *essential to* the cause for which people have donated
money.

[I know: cue accusations of troll-feeding, but I was interested to
work through the logic of these accusations.]

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Daniel P.B.Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] A quotation

body:
(From "The Hound of the Baskervilles," one of the Sherlock Holmes
novels by Arthur Conan Doyle)

"Mr. Frankland, of Lafter Hall ... is an elderly man, red-faced,
white-haired, and choleric. His passion is for the British law, and he
has spent a large fortune in litigation.  He fights for the mere
pleasure of fighting and is equally ready to take up either side of a
question, so that it is no wonder that he has found it a costly
amusement.  Sometimes he will shut up a right of way and defy the
parish to make him open it.  At others he will with his own hands tear
down some other man's gate and declare that a path has existed there
from time immemorial, defying the owner to prosecute him for trespass.
He is learned in old manorial and communal rights, and he applies his
knowledge sometimes in favour of the villagers of Fernworthy and
sometimes against them, so that he is periodically either carried in
triumph down the village street or else burned in effigy, according to
his latest exploit.  He is said to have about seven lawsuits upon his
hands at present, which will probably swallow up the remainder of his
fortune and so draw his sting and leave him harmless for the future....

"It is a great day for me, sir--one of the red-letter days of my life,"
he cried with many chuckles.  "I have brought off a double event.  I
mean to teach them in these parts that law is law, and that there is a
man here who does not fear to invoke it.  I have established a right of
way through the centre of old Middleton's park, slap across it, sir,
within a hundred yards of his own front door.  What do you think of
that?  We'll teach these magnates that they cannot ride roughshod over
the rights of the commoners, confound them!  And I've closed the wood
where the Fernworthy folk used to picnic.  These infernal people seem
to think that there are no rights of property, and that they can swarm
where they like with their papers and their bottles.  Both cases
decided Dr. Watson, and both in my favour.  I haven't had such a day
since I had Sir John Morland for trespass because he shot in his own
warren."

"How on earth did you do that?"

"Look it up in the books, sir.  It will repay reading--Frankland v.
Morland, Court of Queen's Bench.  It cost me 200 pounds, but I got my
verdict."

"Did it do you any good?"

"None, sir, none.  I am proud to say that I had no interest in the
matter.  I act entirely from a sense of public duty.  I have no doubt,
for example, that the Fernworthy people will burn me in effigy tonight.
I told the police last time they did it that they should stop these
disgraceful exhibitions.  The County Constabulary is in a scandalous
state, sir, and it has not afforded me the protection to which I am
entitled.  The case of Frankland v. Regina will bring the matter before
the attention of the public.  I told them that they would have occasion
to regret their treatment of me, and already my words have come true."

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Nicholas Knight

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Mis-use of donated money by
	Wikipedia	user	"Neutrality".

body:
Delirium wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
>> Legal threats are grounds for immediate blocking anyway, so you've
>> just sunk yourself.
>>
> I don't see an actual legal threat.  He said he believes there was a law
> broken, but did not threaten to sue over it.  He threatened to make a
> formal complaint to The Wikimedia Foundation, but not to the court system.

Actually, he threatened to make a formal complaint to "The Wikipedia
Foundation", which would certainly make things very simple for the
Wikimedia Foundation. :)


from_name: jneden at bellsouth.net

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [...] An honorable compromise and no: or nb:
	for Bokmaal?

body:
Lars A.,

Well, I had to go back and find my original e-mail and find the replies to it (achk!) but thanks for the inadvertant compliment about my Norwegian. :-) Ein Sprachennazi?! Ich?! Nein, danke, aber jetzt m?ssen wir in Deutsch sprechen! (Und jetzt mu? ich Deutsch lernen!)

I'm going to digress on the Bokm?l/Nynorsk issue. I'll leave it to you Nordmenn to come up with an appropriate solution. I feel very confident about my abilities and understanding of Norway, though! :-) Takk!

Yeah, I am a bit of a "language Nazi," aren't I? Well, never a Nazi in any way, shape, or form, but the language part, yeah, I guess so! Languages are just a skill of mine.

Dodadagohvi! (Tsalagi idiwiwoni!)
See you all later! (Let's speak Cherokee!)

Not! That would be like the ultimate act of lingual sabotage with our fiery Scandinavian audience here, wouldn't it? :-) Or Muskogee. That would be worse!Give this a try: http://www.tfn.net/Museum/points/Very_Useful1.htm

You all speak Muskogee, don't you?

Just playing! ^_^ Take care, all!

 -- Jeremy


from_name: Zoney

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WP:3RR

body:
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:28:42 -0800, Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
> Mark Pellegrini wrote:
>
> >"Sometimes particular articles attract several edit warriors, and often it's
> >two or three against one. If that one person "uses up" his three reverts,
> >the others still have several to go before they are also banned."
> >
> >That's the whole idea of the 3 revert rule. If multiple people
> >are reverting you, and no one is coming to help, then you're
> >probably in the wrong.
> >
> Or you need a bigger posse... :-) It's only a matter of time
> before some POV warrior thinks of hiring those ad-clickers in
> India to help with the insta-reverting---oops sorry for
> suggesting the idea! :-)
>
> Stan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

I suggest that there will most likely be problems with rigidly
enforcing the 3RR, but I'm sure we can find solutions to those too,
and I think the new problems (if there indeed are any) will be better
than the current situation of some looney getting away with insanely
repeatedly reverting.

Zoney

--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


from_name: Olve Utne

subject: [Wikipedia-l] no:/nb:/nn:/etc. - modified suggestion

body:
Hello Mark,

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:10:12 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
>What would http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noreg redirect to? It would be
>strange for somebody to end up at the nonexistant article :nb:Noreg, or be
>re-directed to :nb:Norge only to have to click on the Nynorsk interwiki
>link to get to where they wanted to be originally.

Try this:

http://nb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noreg

Yes, this does take you to the Norsk (bokm?l) article Norge, where you can
then click on the interwiki link to Nynorsk (soon probably to be renamed
Norsk (nynorsk)) to be taken to the Nynorsk article Noreg. I think this is
a relatively minor problem that is outweighed by the general advantages of
the drafted solution. There is an alternative solution though:

>Thus I propose there be an additional provision of some sort so that when
>article titles are different between nn: and nb: (they aren't always
>different), the Nynorsk name on no: redirects to a Nynorsk article rather
>than a Bokm?l article.

That can be done quite easily in specific cases by creating a
disambiguation page on nb: -- in this particular case it would contain
links to :nb:Norge and :nn:Noreg

>In addition, I think one extremely important thing regarding promotion of
>other Scandinavian Wikipedias is this:
>
>While the Sami language(s) may not be related to sv:/da:/nn:/nb:/, since
>they are a national minority in all of these countries (excepting
>Denmark), there should be prominently placed invitations in Sami, if
>possible (otherwise in the language of the Wikipedia they're on), to come
>contribute to the Sami Wikipedias if you can.

For the inclusion of S?mi and other minority languages, please see the
"recent changes" page on nn: and no:/nb: for an example of how this issue
is already being handled:

http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spesial:Recentchanges

Note how the languages are listed in the links near the top of the page:
1) Scandinavian languages (minus nn): no: - sv: - da:, and also the
languages Faeroese and Icelandic
2) Local Finno-Ugrian languages of Finnish and Northern Sami;
3) Languages of national minorities: Greenlandic, Hebrew & Yiddish.
4) Common immigrant languages in Norway: Albanian, Arabic, Bosnian, Farsi,
Kurdish, Tamil, Turkish, Urdu & Vietnamese.
5) Major languages like English, French, German, Russian & Spanish;
6) Commons and Meta projects.

On the Nynorsk main page, there are currently three links to Northern Sami:
Near the top of the interwiki list; in its alphabetical place in the
interwiki list; as one of the specially listed local languages in the
section "Wikipedia i Skandinavia / Norden og n?romr?da".

Further actions, like having an "ad" for the Northern Sami Wikipedia on the
main page of nn:, have not been implemented yet, but I will tend to this soon.

>Just to make things more complicated (and forseeing a possible future
>issue)... currently, TTBOMK, we only have http://se.wikipedia.org/ for
>Sami (more specifically N. Sami). Should we create additional Wikipedias
>for the other Sami languages/dialects/whatever? If so, perhaps we should
>have a notice on the Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish Wikipedias (don't
>forget, Finland has Sami people too!) in some sort of "unified Sami"
>(which everybody can understand, even if it's not a standard in everyday
>use) inviting people to contribute to the appropriate Sami Wikipedia.

For Norway, Lule Sami and Southern Sami wikipedias would probably be useful
-- and possibly also Skolte Sami and Enare Sami. In my opinion, the Lule
Sami and Southern Sami languages should be offered the possibility of
creating wikipedias.

Two other national minorities in Norway and Sweden are the Romani people
(Tatrar, Tatere, Tattare) and the Roma (Sig?ynarar, Sig?ynere, Zigenare,
"Gypsies"). I suspect that the interest for wikipedia work may be
relatively low in these groups, but it might still be worth checking out.

All the best,

-Olve

> > > ==========================================
> > > MODIFIED SUGGESTION FOR LONG-TERM SOLUTION
> > > ==========================================
> > >
> > >
> > > (This suggestion is based primarily on Lars Alvik's previous
> > > suggestion, with modifications/additions based on arguments that have
> > > emerged in the debate locally on no: and nn: as well as here on
> > > wikipedia-l.)
> > >
> > >
> > > 1) The "Norsk" and "Nynorsk" interwiki names are changed to "Norsk
> > > (bokm?l)" and "Norsk (nynorsk)" respectively.
> > >
> > > 2) The "Norsk (nynorsk)" wikipedia uses the language code nn:
> > >
> > > 3) The "Norsk (bokm?l)" wikipedia is moved to the proper language code
> > > nb:, with the central Wikipedia developers/admins making sure that the
> > > extra workload on the current no: admins is kept to an absolute
> > > minimum. (This will in effect (see #4) only be an internal reversal of
> > > the two domains already de facto used by the Norsk (bokm?l) Wikipedia,
> > > thus ensuring maximum continuity.)
> > >
> > > 4) For reasons of continuity and relative size of community, "Norsk
> > > (bokm?l)" Wikipedia keeps the domain no:, but for reasons of
> > > impreciseness of the term as regards the language situation in Norway,
> > > this code will only be used as a redirect of links and URLs with the
> > > code to the corresponding nb: page. (Thus parallelling exactly the
> > > Danish usage of dk: and da:)
> > >
> > > 5) The communities on nn: and nb: will commit themselves to
> > > implementing the solution locally, with a special emphasis on
> > > information about and promotion of the other Wikipedia on the "Main"
> > > and "Latest edits" page; and also, to the extent possible, through
> > > putting the interwiki link to the other language first in the list of
> > > links in each article.
> > >
> > > 6) A specific technical solution that has been brought up is the
> > > splitting of the "Donations" link into a locally wikipedia-wide
> > > universal link to the other Wikipedia of the two. This solution, while
> > > admittedly clogging up the quick navigations field slightly, may have
> > > positive effects for the local cooperation, and should therefore be
> > > reciprocally applied to the nn: and nb: wikipedias.
> > >
> > > 7) In the interest of strengthening the Scandinavian Wikipedia
> > > community, I suggest to implement points 5) and 6) also to sv: and
> > > da:, thus facilitating quick navigation between these wikipedias,
> > > effectively creating a half-integrated article pool of about 83,000
> > > articles (on 14 Nov. at ca 7 AM GMT) and an incitement for each of the
> > > four Scandinavian communities to cooperate and expand.
> > >
> > > 8) Work towards more integrated multilingual wikipedias through making
> > > the Scandinavian wikipedias a test project for the development of an
> > > interlingual search function limited to a specific pool of wikipedias,
> > > where searches and no-hit events lead to a search within the
> > > pre-defined pool of closely related languages. For Scandinavian, this
> > > would include, in order of community size, sv:, da:, nb:, and nn:.

___________________

Olve Utne
http://utne.nvg.org


from_name: Mark Constable

subject: [Wikitech-l] MultiHosting from single source

body:
On Sunday 14 November 2004 14:24, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Nov 13, 2004, at 8:21 PM, Mark Constable wrote:
> > Hi all, I am wondering if there is any interest in some mods
> > to enhance MediaWikis ability to be multi-hosted from a
> > single core of code ?
>
> There's some documentation on how we have things set up at
> Wikipedia here: http://wp.wikidev.net/Wiki_farm

Thanks for that, a good read but a bit obscure looking at it
from the outside. My observation so far is that it would not
take that much change to the distributed code to allow the
installer to offer a multi-hosting setup that anyone could
take advantage of... in our case that will be 300 vhosts and
4000 subdomains. Do you, or anyone, think there is any interest
in getting multi-hosting mods into the official mainstream code ?

--markc


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 3RR policy change

body:
Fred Bauder (fredbaud at ctelco.net) [041114 23:56]:
> From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>

> > My question is, what about editors who revert while simultaneously (and
> > deliberately) making non-trivial changes, so they can claim their edits were
> > not a delete at all?

> Never hurts to correct a typo while reverting, but its still a revert.

You're on the AC, don't tell me you don't immediately see how a dedicated
POV warrior will game any given system ... I see more stupid AC requests in
the future.

(That said, here's to 3RR. SUPPORT! SUPPORT!)

- d.


from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Vancouver university

body:
Why don't you request he add this?

Fred Bauder wrote:
> Could you provide a url to the retraction? Also, is there any information in
> the article which relates to Vancouver University Worldwide which is not
> true?
>
> Fre
>
>
>>From: Registry - Vancouver University <registry at vancouveruniversity.edu>
>>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:52:12 -0800
>>To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Vancouver university
>>
>>It is utterly unfair to keep this USA Today reference
>>(and therefrom other-derived references) to Vancouver
>>University without acknowledging that USA Today
>>subsequently published a retraction letter.
>>
>>Likuan Tham
>>
>>
>>---
>>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Abuse of his position as Administrator by WIKIPEDIA
 user Neutrality- not what the $50,000 was donated for.

body:
dwdwdwdw at fastmail.fm wrote:
> Re the above - user Neutrality has blocked me with the lie
> above, because he has a personal grudge against me. Also because
> I gave two users who's efforts I admire Barnstars for their
> endless patience. And because I corrected racist abuse against
> my country and dared to list its name on The Wikipedia. He's
> been mis-using his position as an Administrator from almost the
> moment he got it. As others including Admins have complained.
> It's a dirty lie that I have been "Maliciously acting in bad
> faith to disrupt Wikipedia". I haven't disrupted anything in any
> way. I've just spent about an hour sending a message of thanks,
> ignoring "stalking etc." abuse from one of user Neutrality's
> friends. And making responsible edits along with helpful
> explanations as I always do.

Out of interest, which admins have complained?

Ta bu shi da yu


subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Upload changes

body:
I've made some changes to Special:Upload while fixing up some file
overwriting problems ( http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/548 ). I don't
think it should break any upload bots, but please check if you have
problems.

The form interface when it asks for user confirmation (eg for
overwriting) is slightly different; it runs more of the fields through
the session instead of the form.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Fuzzy (approximate) wiki page title access - fuzzy
 bookmarking - auto search

body:
I recently came across a wiki which implements a more useful way to
access (search) pages by actually implementing a form of fuzzy
(approximate) bookmarking. Perhaps this is a way to improve the
userfriendliness of MediaWiki, too.

I filed bugzilla http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=883 for this.
Tom

 From the content:
To search for the word "cgi" in all page titles, you can use the URL:

        http://purl.org/tcl/wiki/cgi

To search for this word in all titles and in the full texts, use:

        http://purl.org/tcl/wiki/cgi*  (in general: an regular expression)

But there's a little more to it. That last URL is actually a form of
fuzzy bookmarking. There is no web page called "search". Wikit presents
its contents as if it were a directory with pages, but its all smoke and
mirrors...


body:
Nicholas Knight (nknight at runawaynet.com) [041115 07:00]:
> wikiuser at cyber-rights.net wrote:

> >FURTHER He's blocked me, and 350 other computers, for a month with
> >no
> >justification whatsoever. SEE BELOW. I want to make a formal
> >complaint
> >to The Wikipedia Foundation about him and to formally apply to have
> >the
> >viscious abuser "Neutrality" booted off The Wikipedia permanently;
> >for
> >mis-using his position, and the $50,000 donated, and therefore
> >(officially acting as The Wikipedia Foundation's agent) breaking a
> >Federal law due to his corruptly mis-using these funds.

> Can someone please block this delusional nutjob from posting to WikiEN-l?

Hold on a bit, we've made his cat a sysop who is secretly editing the
emails he receives from wikien-l to make it look like there's some
sort of conspiracy against him. DON'T BREAK THE CHAIN!

- d.


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Wiktionary Logo

body:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:14:27 +0100, Tomasz Sienicki <tsca at edb.dk> wrote:
>  The problem is that
>  * the original logo is English-centric and difficult to make local
>    (translate)
>  * it's a nice design, but not really a logo, it does not contain
>    a recognisable sign (that is clear among others on main pages
>    of several projects where miniatures of 'sister projects' logos
>    are shown)

Agreed.

>  That's why we've come up with an alternative logo (containing a sign,
>  easy to translate). You can see it here:
>  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tsca_wiktionary_logo2.png
>
>  Now, the questions are:
>  * should we launch an inter-Wiktionary debate on a new logo?
>   or
>  * do we allow some Wiktionaries to use an alternative logo?

The former.  It would be good to have a graphic in the logo along with
the translatable title, just like the other wikimedia wikis.

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WP:3RR

body:
J.F. de Wolff wrote:
> There is one very crucial problem with the 3RR, which needs to be taken
> into consideration by the sysop who is banning.
> Sometimes particular articles attract several edit warriors, and often
> it's two or three against one. If that one person "uses up" his three
> reverts, the others still have several to go before they are also banned.
> How can we avoid an unequality like this from happening? I otherwise
> warmly endorse the 3RR.

I think in a case like that, it's time to get more people involved in
the article anyway, people who are less emotionally committed to one
outcome or the other, and who may be able to find a compromise version
that is reasonably satisfactory to both sides.

There are cases, see [[:en:Pila]] for example, where the issue is very
very unimportant in the grand scheme of things, but the battle seems
to be nowhere near conclusion.

(For those who don't know: there's an ongoing revert war there about
the name *in German*, not English, of a fairly obscure town of 77,000
people in northwestern Poland.  If the Onion really wanted to be
funny, they should have written their article about German names of
things in Poland.  The issue is not the name itself, but rather the
question of whether it is the _German name_ or the _former German
name_.  Gzornenplatz is uncompromising on the issue, and seems willing
to fight it until the bitter end.)

Getting more people involved might help.  In fact, I'm going to do a good
deed and try it myself right now.

--Jimbo


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re:wiktionary logo

body:
A logo less english centric is a good idea and I am
happy some editors are taking interest in this :-)

I would highly recommand that all wiktionaries have
the same logo, as it is an important mark to identify
one common project. We are not a collection of
different projects, but one project in different
languages.
This indeed suggest an approval at least at the whole
wiktionary project.

Recently, a debate took place as well with regards the
wikicommons logo.
This debate suggests to me that any logo change should
be accompanied by a formal poll at the global
wiktionary level, as well as with mention to the
global mailing lists.

Incidently, the logo should be owned by the foundation
so as to protect it. So, how the logo should look is
entirely debatable, but the license of the logo itself
is not really debatable. Before any logo contest, it
should be made clear that the logo will not be
copyrighted by its author.

I sent this mail in copy to foundation.

Anthere

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:14:27 +0100, Tomasz Sienicki
<tsca-Vn+BvHwdNC8 at public.gmane.org> wrote:
 The problem is that
 * the original logo is English-centric and difficult
to make local
   (translate)
 * it's a nice design, but not really a logo, it does
not contain
   a recognisable sign (that is clear among others on
main pages
   of several projects where miniatures of 'sister
projects' logos
   are shown)

Agreed.

 That's why we've come up with an alternative logo
(containing a sign,
 easy to translate). You can see it here:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tsca_wiktionary_logo2.png

 Now, the questions are:
 * should we launch an inter-Wiktionary debate on a
new logo?
  or
 * do we allow some Wiktionaries to use an alternative
logo?

The former.  It would be good to have a graphic in the
logo along with
the translatable title, just like the other wikimedia
wikis.

    *Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net
/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Re:wiktionary logo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!

body:
Gerrit wrote:
> If so, will the content of demo: be copied to en:, or will it start
> over? Is the demo: multi-lingual or English language?

It will be moved to en.

Just to be clear, this vote means that wikinews is an official
wikimedia project.  I'm fully committed to seeing it through.  The
reason for having it at 'demo' for now is to make it clear to everyone
that policies aren't settled, and that we want to do a "soft launch"
to get it up to speed first.

In part this is because I think the press is going to be very very
interested: holding it at 'demo' for a bit while we get it worked out
will help to make sure that we don't get slammed in the press for
being too... small or whatever...  We don't expect this to be a big
community right away, obviously it takes several months to build and
grow and get comfortable about exact policies.

--Jimbo


from_name: peter

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki + phpBB ?

body:
PHPBB does not today support LDAP authentication but version 2.2 will. There
are several mods for LDAP to install though.

Keep us updated on your work, it seems to be more people than me that could use
something like that.
     /peter

Victor Fari?a wrote:
> Hi all ...
> Well i am working on a simple solution on this way for my own
> applications ...
> The autehntication will be used to a LDAP Server , and when a user logs
> in, a check
> on the LDAP tree must be set to TRUE, them all applications using the
> same LDAP
> can find the user authenticated or not.
>
> When a user signs in on an application, a LDAP attribute must be set to
> TRUE.
> and before sign in, the application must look for this attribute to see
> if the user
> are logged in.
>
> I dont know PHPBB but iam sure it has a module to authenticate to a LDAP
> server ...
>
>
> regards
>
> Bram de Jong - MTG wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>>
>> (Hi! First post here)
>>
>> for a site I'm building I'm trying to use one generalised login system
>> for everything on the site (forum / wiki / ftp / ...). I was wondering
>> if anyone has done any work on joining phpBB and MediaWiki.
>>
>> In a perfect world people would log into PhpBB and an account would be
>> made for MediaWiki with the same login/pass. Whenever a user logs into
>> the site, he should automatically be logged into MediaWiki.
>>
>> So - has it been done? Google didn't really help me this time.
>>
>>
>> thanks a lot,
>>
>>
>>  - bram
>>
>
>


from_name: Gerrit

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> We will be keeping the site demo-only until November 22 at least, and
> at that point evaluating the next step.  (Probably to launch
> en.wikinews.org)

If so, will the content of demo: be copied to en:, or will it start
over? Is the demo: multi-lingual or English language?

regards,
Gerrit Holl.

--
Weather in Twenthe, Netherlands 15/11 09:25:
	5.0?C Few clouds overcast wind 3.1 m/s SSW (57 m above NAP)
--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of
unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the
military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of
misplaced power exists and will persist.
    -Dwight David Eisenhower, January 17, 1961


subject: [IMC-Tech] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!

body:
Jama Poulsen wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 07:05:46PM -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>>http://demo.wikinews.org/
>>
>>After the successful wikinews vote
>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Vote
>>
>>the board has discussed and decided to move forward with this project!
>>This will also give people more of a chance to discuss the proposed
>>policies before the site goes live.
>
>
> Has anyone been thinking about how Wikinews could cooperate with the
> Independent Media Center (IMC) project (http://www.indymedia.org)?

> In short, it seems to me that if these two projects could join forces,
> the end result would be more than just Wikinews and IMC separately.

I'm skeptical about this idea. What is the political orientation of
Wikinews? Indymedia exists as an alternative media space for the
political left (broadly defined). Is Wikinews apolitical, left-leaning,
or friendly towards neo-fascists? I've been told that Wikipedia is run
by right wing libertarians, so hwo do we know that the volunteer work
put into a joint project won't be exploited by venture capitalists when
they try to turn Wikipedia into an IPO?

I'm opposed to this partnership until it can be determined how Indymedia
would benefit from any partnership with a newly launched project.

Chuck Munson
Infoshop News


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pi-eyed

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

>Tim Starling wrote:
>
>
>>It's true that you could make minor changes to formatting, but those
>>changes do not provide enough benefit to counteract the waste of time
>>and resources caused by vandalism.
>>
>>
>I totally agree and I think what Angela said is valid here as well:
>this type of page isn't all that suited for a wiki, so we should have
>really no qualms about just protecting the page and being done with
>it.
>
That page was in fact protected soon after the issue was raised.  Unlike
in strictly textual pages it can be difficult to recognize the
difference between corrections and subtle vandalism in a numerical page.

>I'd say the same thing about a *lot* of things on wikisource.  At some
>point fairly early in the development of a source article, protection
>is a wise option.  Probably the protection message should make it very
>clear to people that if they have a real change to make, the article
>can easily be unprotected.
>
Thus far, vandalism at Wikisource (or even Wiktionary) has not been
overwhelming.  Perhaps the size of Wikipedia combined with the short
attention span of most common vandals helps the smaller projects to stay
below the radar.  The texts in Wikisource have remained remarkably
stable, but I would not hesitate to impose protection if there were a
consistent trend to act silly.  Once a text is in place most of the
editing activity tends to relate to such secondary things as format,
categories, introductory or other connective material.  We would dream
too that at some point we would be better able to handle annotations and
translations through a system of closely associated pages.

Deferral of the issue of multiple domains, has already inspired some
people to look for imaginative ways of treating multilingual access.  It
is much too early to tell which of these experiments will be successful,
but the clutter of dead-end attempts seems a small price to pay.  Those
that are true failures can be easily removed when the passion for them
has gone away.  These experiments will develop more naturally in an
easily editable context, but vigilance will need to continue.

To the extent that protection may be required, I will look into a
developing a suitable protection message.

>But it seems silly for anyone to have to pull their hair out fighting
>vandalism on a page that *could not possibly* be improved anyway,
>because it is already accurate.
>
>
Agreed.

Ec


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [Foundation-l] Re:wiktionary logo

body:
I agree completely with everything Anthere says here. :-)

Anthere wrote:

> A logo less english centric is a good idea and I am
> happy some editors are taking interest in this :-)
>
> I would highly recommand that all wiktionaries have
> the same logo, as it is an important mark to identify
> one common project. We are not a collection of
> different projects, but one project in different
> languages.
> This indeed suggest an approval at least at the whole
> wiktionary project.
>
> Recently, a debate took place as well with regards the
> wikicommons logo.
> This debate suggests to me that any logo change should
> be accompanied by a formal poll at the global
> wiktionary level, as well as with mention to the
> global mailing lists.
>
> Incidently, the logo should be owned by the foundation
> so as to protect it. So, how the logo should look is
> entirely debatable, but the license of the logo itself
> is not really debatable. Before any logo contest, it
> should be made clear that the logo will not be
> copyrighted by its author.
>
> I sent this mail in copy to foundation.
>
> Anthere
>
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:14:27 +0100, Tomasz Sienicki
> <tsca-Vn+BvHwdNC8 at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>  The problem is that
>  * the original logo is English-centric and difficult
> to make local
>    (translate)
>  * it's a nice design, but not really a logo, it does
> not contain
>    a recognisable sign (that is clear among others on
> main pages
>    of several projects where miniatures of 'sister
> projects' logos
>    are shown)
>
> Agreed.
>
>  That's why we've come up with an alternative logo
> (containing a sign,
>  easy to translate). You can see it here:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tsca_wiktionary_logo2.png
>
>  Now, the questions are:
>  * should we launch an inter-Wiktionary debate on a
> new logo?
>   or
>  * do we allow some Wiktionaries to use an alternative
> logo?
>
> The former.  It would be good to have a graphic in the
> logo along with
> the translatable title, just like the other wikimedia
> wikis.
>
>
>     *Muke!
> --
> website:     http://frath.net/
> LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
> deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/
>
> FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
> http://wiki.frath.net
> /
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> www.yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
"La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


subject: [Foundation-l] Re:wiktionary logo


from_name: Tim Starling

body:
Mark Constable wrote:
> On Sunday 14 November 2004 14:24, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>>On Nov 13, 2004, at 8:21 PM, Mark Constable wrote:
>>
>>>Hi all, I am wondering if there is any interest in some mods
>>>to enhance MediaWikis ability to be multi-hosted from a
>>>single core of code ?
>>
>>There's some documentation on how we have things set up at
>>Wikipedia here: http://wp.wikidev.net/Wiki_farm
>
>
> Thanks for that, a good read but a bit obscure looking at it
> from the outside. My observation so far is that it would not
> take that much change to the distributed code to allow the
> installer to offer a multi-hosting setup that anyone could
> take advantage of... in our case that will be 300 vhosts and
> 4000 subdomains. Do you, or anyone, think there is any interest
> in getting multi-hosting mods into the official mainstream code ?
>

Perhaps you would like to tell us what you actually intend to do? I
understand it might be obscure from the outside, but our apache
configuration files have been publically available for some time. I just
uploaded the remainder of our wiki configuration, and made an index file:

http://wikimedia.org/conf/

I can't see any problems scaling up our configuration from 500 to 4000
subdomains. What problems have you encountered?

-- Tim Starling


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: 3RR policy change

body:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:06:07 +1100, csherlock at ljh.com.au
<csherlock at ljh.com.au> wrote:
> OK, this happened to me today in [[Exploding whale]]. Mikkalai remove a
> whole chunk of text, which I reverted. He then reverted me. I modified
> it to try to compromise, and commented on talk, and I messaged him
> explaining what happened. He reverted again. I tried to modify again to
> compromise, again I placed a note on talk, and in the edit summary I
> asked him politely to go to talk before reverting. I also placed a
> message on his page. He reverted again. I tried to clarify, left
> *another* message on the talk page (responded to his comment), and left
> a message on his talk page again. He reverted again.
>
> I then listed the article on [[WP:RFC]] and left a note on his talk page
> telling him I had done this. I didn't revert any more, I just explained
> that I wanted outside comment. Sure enough, Markalexander100 tried to
> compromise also. He reverted again, then he changed his mind and
> attempted to compromise. This was all worked out well, though I do
> regret that I was told by Mikkalai to "Go hunt zionist revisionist
> deniers" - whatever that means (I'm sure it can't be good!)
>
> My faith in the 3RR process is restored AND satisfied.
>
>
>
> Ta bu shi da yu
>
> Anthony DiPierro wrote:
> > I think it's more likely to make POV warriors use sockpuppets and
> > thereby force other editors to either let them get away with it or
> > risk being blocked.  Nobody likes to work, but POV warriors are
> > generally more willing to work.
> >
> > Further, the way I interpret the 3RR, if there were 2 different POV
> > warriors, each reverting to different POV versions, an NPOV warrior
> > would lose.  Consider the edits:
> >
> > original version: Jerusalem is city which is claimed by both Israel
> > and the Palestinean Authority.
> > Warrior 1: Jerusalem is a city in Israel.
> > you: Jerusalem is city which is claimed by both Israel and the
> > Palestinean Authority.
> > Warrior 2: Jerusalem is a city in Palestine.
> > you: Jerusalem is city which is claimed by both Israel and the
> > Palestinean Authority.
> > Warrior 1: Jerusalem is a city in Israel.
> > you: Jerusalem is city which is claimed by both Israel and the
> > Palestinean Authority.
> > Warrior 2: Jerusalem is a city in Palestine.
> > you: Jerusalem is city which is claimed by both Israel and the
> > Palestinean Authority.
> > Warrior 1: Jerusalem is a city in Israel.
> >
> > In this scenario, the person restoring the NPOV version has broken the
> > 3RR, but the POV revert warriors have not.  Sure, you can try to get
> > people on your side, but it takes more than twice as many people on
> > the NPOV side as it does on the POV sides.  Add in a few vandals who
> > put in "Jerusalem sucksorz!!!!" and give a few of them multiple IP
> > addresses...
> >
> > I think the 3RR is a great guideline.  In fact, Jimbo has convinced me
> > to limit myself to one revert per day in almost all cases.  But to be
> > a strict rule, I think it has to be perfect, not just good.
> >
> > Anthony
> >
> >
> >>The 3RR doesn't have to be perfect, IMO, it just has to be better than what
> >>we've got now. At least this will make POV warriors hav eto work more to
> >>fight their revert wars, which should help reduce their number. Nobody
> >>likes to work :).
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

Also, if one is attempting a compromise (and without reverting to the
same one repeatedly), this probably doesn't count as a revert. In
other words, if your new version does retain some details from the
version you are changing, then surely it is not a revert. i.e. I
presume the rigid 3RR rules only pertain to three actual outright
reverts.

Am I right?

Zoney
--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!

body:
Jama Poulsen wrote:
> Has anyone been thinking about how Wikinews could cooperate with the
> Independent Media Center (IMC) project (http://www.indymedia.org)?

I think that the culture clash would be substantial.  Virtually all of
their text content is completely unusable due to strong POV.

I do think that Indymedia should use wikis, because I think that much
of their reporting could be strengthened by having an open editing
process.  Most of their worst biases would not last 5 minutes in an
open editing situation.  Even activists should learn that neutrality
is a powerful means to persuade people, as compared to radical
ranting.

--Jimbo


from_name: Tomasz Sienicki

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Village pump

references:
<418C7780.4090005@myrealbox.com>
	<opsg1sbqjh2okkek@arcadia.attbi.com>
	<418CF9E5.1060200@myrealbox.com>

body:
 Gerard Meijssen wrote:

>  [[nl:WikiWoordenboek:De kroeg]]
>  [[de:Wiktionary:Ich brauche Hilfe]]
>  [[en:Wiktionary:Beer parlour]]
>  [[fr:Wiktionnaire:Wikid?mie]]
>  [[hi:??????????:???? ?? ????]]
>  [[it:Wikizionario:Bar]]
>  [[ja:Wiktionary:???]]
>  [[la:O]]
>  [[sv:Wiktionary:Bybrunnen]]
>  [[zh:Wiktionary:???]]

 [[pl:Wikis%C5%82ownik:Bar]]

--
 tsca * Tomasz Sienicki


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The return of Prillinger.

body:
How strange.  To apply "faith based" to anything that I have something
to do with clearly betrays a lack of understanding.

>Then comes the crucial and entirely faith-based step:
>
>3.  Some unspecified quasi-Darwinian process will assure that those
>writings and editings by contributors of greatest expertise will
>survive; articles will eventually reach a steady state that
>corresponds to the highest degree of accuracy.

This is a very common misunderstanding of our project, but it is
inexcusable and irresponsible for a former editor of Britannica to
make such a claim without even doing (apparently) the most cursory of
research into how our work is actually conducted.  The process of
review is neither "unspecified" nor "quasi-Darwinian" but is in fact
carried out in great public detail on talk and policy pages.

There's nothing "faith based" about it -- it's good old fashioned
*rational* hard work, undertaken by people of good will in a spirit of
love and kindness.

--Jimbo


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fwd: Banned from editing except on en

body:
May I know exactly what behaviour you are referring to?

http://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Hayk
http://ka.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sopho&curid=841&diff=1633&oldid=1620

Is it perhaps http://fj.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=1454
?

Can I please see a specific policy page that says there's something
wrong with that? See other Wikipedias that do similar things for
example http://lv.wikipedia.org/ http://mn.wikipedia.org/
http://zh.wikipedia.org/ If you want to see it with an inactive
Wikipedia, try http://iu.wikipedia.org/

I have been accused repeatedly of posting "badly translated text" to
various Wikipedias, and I would like to say that the people who have
been making these claims don't even CLAIM to be able to speak the
languages in question and I assure you the text is not "badly
translated".

As far as being fluent in other languages, ???????????P???NOT
???????????????????????????????????

????????????????????

?????????????????

?? ????? ??????????

seriously though, what is wrong with knowing a few languages fluently
and knowing a few phrases in many others?

Mark

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:26:10 -0800
Subject: Banned from editing except on en
To: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Cc: Angela <beesley at gmail.com>, anthere9 at yahoo.com

As a courtesy to you, Mark, I'm not going to make a big public
spectacle of this, but if you would like to take it public, please do
so.  I just see no reason at this juncture to put you through the
embarassment of a public ban.

You are banned from editing at any wikipedia site other than en.  I
will make an adjustment to this if you can convince me that you are
fluent in any other language.  It is simply unacceptable for you to
continue making edits to minor language wikis in the way that you
have.

We could enforce this ban at a technical level if we had to, but you
know how our system works enough to see that it would be quite a lot
of work for us.  I don't think I've seen enough evidence of bad faith
on your part to think that you'd do that.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] Socks; 3RR policy change

body:
Regarding sockpuppets and the 3RR rule.

I'm sympathetic.  It's a tough problem, though.

However, I think our biggest headache has been the sort of user who is
*above* using sockpuppets, but *not above* getting into a revert war
so long as we didn't have enforcement.

I'm talking about someone like Gzornenplatz, who more or less refused
to obey the 3RR (except under the threat of a block) because other
people were ignoring it as well.  I found that behavior to be
difficult, but to his credit I will say that it is hard for me to
imagine Gzornenplatz using a sock puppet.

(I know there are those who think he is just Wik reincarnated.  I
asked him point blank, he denied it, and that's good enough for me
right now.)

Malicious sockpuppetry is a very very low form of behavior.  Even
people who are normally difficult would agree about that, I think.  It
is one thing to make your arguments in a rough manner, upsetting
people in the process.  It is one thing to push a POV, or to bend our
rules of goodwill as far as you can without breaking them...

And yet, it is an entirely different thing to undercut the very
foundation of trust that underlies everything that we do as a
community by using a sockpuppet.

--Jimbo

p.s.  I always try to add that I don't think that every use of a
second account is sockpuppetry of course.  There are a number of good
reasons one might do it.  My favorite (and completely made up) example
would be a math professor who writes about math topics *and* is
secretly a fan of Britney Spears.  Maybe he would like to write about
those two things under separate identifies. :-)

-- "La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on
fr.wikipedia.org


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Just because no one helps you...

body:
> That's the whole idea of the 3 revert rule.
> If multiple people are reverting you, and no one
> is coming to help, then you're probably in the wrong.

In theory, yes.  In practice, no.  On alternative medicine
articles we had a group of POV warriors (such as Mr.
Natural Health) making non-stop reversions, deleting
mention of critical studies and peer-reviewed data.  Yet
very few people with a background in medicine or science
were willing to edit these articles, as they did not want
to put up with the harassment.

On other forums, the same was true in regards to the
subject of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology.  Many people
were harassed and threatened, and eventually driven away
from a number of forums; the loonies took over the asylym.

If no one is helping you in a mass-revert situation, this
is not proof you are wrong.  Just ask any of the victims of
scientology. (Entire book and websites describe the legal
and physical abuses that some Scientologist adherents have
thrust upon people that they perceive as enemies.)

Robert (RK)

__________________________________
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body:
On Monday 15 November 2004 11:16, Tim Starling wrote:
> Perhaps you would like to tell us what you actually intend to do?

The ideal, for me, would be that a single SIMPLE index.php
dropped into any on-web doc root pulls up a unique full working
instance of MediaWiki. That 99.9% of the code works properly
from an off-web includes area and, but not so importantly, that
on-web CSS and image requirements can come from some default
initial domain so that nothing other than the index.php and a
LocalSettings.php are required in any vhost webfolder...

<?php
 require './LocalSettings.php';
 require 'mediawiki.php';
?>

> I understand it might be obscure from the outside, but our apache
> configuration files have been publically available for some time. I just
> uploaded the remainder of our wiki configuration, and made an index file:
>
> http://wikimedia.org/conf/

Good one, that backs up the textual explanation nicely.

> I can't see any problems scaling up our configuration from 500 to 4000
> subdomains. What problems have you encountered?

None yet. I can easily hack the code to make it work for our
particular system setup close to my ideal spec above, but,
that makes future upgrades a risky process. The current install
basically assumes that all the required parts are within the
same directory as the index.php. The simplistic approach to
creating a second installation, on the same server, would be to
repeat the current installation procedure and create a separate
completely independant installation in another webfolder. That's
fine up to about a dozen installs and then it gets out of hand
in both the installation procedure and any future upgrades.

With my first attempt to make MediaWiki work, like my specified
"ideal" above, it seemed to me that it _MAY_ not take much effort
to mildly alter the front end controller and installation procedure
to take into account either a simple single installation OR a more
complex multi-hosting installation. If so, and it became an official
core part of the MediaWiki project, then there would be no reason
not to use MediaWiki in larger multi-hosted environments. It can
be now with some tinkering but I can see that even that tinkering
could be absorbed into an official installation procedure.

My first attempt was to create a default installation then move
everything inside an offweb include path and start with a simple
<?php include 'mediawiki.php' ?> (being the current index.php)
and put back into the current webfolder what was essential to
bring up any page at all. The simplest minimum, without worrying
about a default webhost for images and stylesheets, is...

 LocalSettings.php
 images/
 index.php
 redirect.php@ (a link -> index.php)
 stylesheets/
 tmp/ (was autocreated)

I changed $IP in LocalSettings.php to the off-web include dir and
commented out the initial part of mediawiki.php (original index.php)
to just below the "require LocalSettings.php" and now my current
index.php used above is...

<?php
error_log(var_export($_REQUEST, true));

$wgRequestTime = microtime();
unset( $IP );
@ini_set( "allow_url_fopen", 0 ); # For security...
if(!file_exists("LocalSettings.php")) {
        die( "You'll have to set the wiki up first!" );
}
define( "MEDIAWIKI", true );
require_once( "./LocalSettings.php" );

if (isset($_GET['redirect']) and $_GET['redirect'] == 'Go') {
#    unset( $DP );
#    unset( $IP );
    $wgCommandLineMode = false;
#    require_once( "./LocalSettings.php" );
    global $wgArticlePath;
    require_once( "WebRequest.php" );
    $wgRequest = new WebRequest();
    $page = $wgRequest->getVal( "wpDropdown" );
    $url = str_replace( "$1", urlencode( $page ), $wgArticlePath );
    header( "Location: {$url}" );
} else {
    include 'mediawiki.php';
}
?>

This is my first cut at it in the first hour of installing MediaWiki
to see what might be involved in doing this. It's in no way working
properly or anywhere near deployed. I was pleased that I did not have
to alter too much code to get to this point and it occurred to me
that it might be possible to continue this move through "official
channels" to get something like this into the core code.

--markc


subject: [Wiktionary-l] IMPORTANT: Categories as indices

body:
  Muke Tever wrote:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:

>> Yannf has added a category "language" to the categories that hold the
>> words in a language. This gives you one list with all lists of words in
>> a particular language.
>
> What, like our Latin [[Category:Linguae]] ? ;)

 It seems that many wiktionaries use the category system to create indices
 of the entries in particular language. However, the current version of our
 software doesn't really support such use.

 In the Polish Wiktionary we have around 16.000 Interlingua entries. We
 won't even try to add the category to the template...

 At this point we generate indices with an external program:
 http://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Indeks:Has%C5%82a_wed%C5%82ug_j%C4%99zyk%C3%B3w
 - but it's a bad solution. Categories would be easier...

 At some point there was talk that in the new version of the software categories
 containing many entries will automatically split into subpages divided by the
 initial letter of the entry, or even further (eg. English - Aa, English - Ab,
 ..., English - Zz). Is someone working on that?

 I think that auto-generating indices is one of the most important features
 that Wiktionaries miss in the software. We need a system that can handle
 listing tens of thousands of entries. If one user requests this feature,
 the request will most probably be ignored. However, if the communities of
 several Wiktionaries request it together, perhaps we can count on
 developers recognising this need?

--
 tsca * Tomasz Sienicki


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!

body:
Gerrit-
> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>> We will be keeping the site demo-only until November 22 at least, and
>> at that point evaluating the next step.  (Probably to launch
>> en.wikinews.org)

> If so, will the content of demo: be copied to en:, or will it start
> over? Is the demo: multi-lingual or English language?

The demo will become en:. For reasons of simplicity, it's single language
right now. Even if English is approved, it's not yet clear what other
languages will be and at which time.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: uninvited at nerstrand.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Socks; 3RR policy change

body:
I believe that the 3RR policy change may lead to a profusion of socks,
and based on that, would like to encourage some discussion of socks and
what to do about them.

Sockpuppets are utilized at Wikipedia because they are so effective.  A
user who makes careful, effective use of sock puppets is above the
WikiLaw, because bans and blocks are ineffective and there is no
effective means to make users accountable for sock edits.

Efforts to identify sock puppets are divisive, because users familiar
with a certain editing pattern are likely to identify the sock while
others, who are less familiar, will disagree.  This divides the
community regardless of who is right.

There are growing numbers of socks, not just infamous editors like EofT,
Michael, Lir, and Wik, but such lesser points of light as Reithy, 33451,
and Alex Plank, and the Goatse uploader who has logged in under over ten
user names in the last week or two.  And the user who in quick
succession logged in as SysopMan, CaptainFreedom, and Docmartin2.  A
quick review of the block log will reveal more.

I am bringing this up despite its revered status as a third-rail issue
for the mailing list.  There are plenty of ways to prevent socks.  I've
suggested email confirmation.  I've suggested logging all contributors
IPs and making these visible to admins.  There are other means.  I am
confident that we can find a method to control socks without damaging
the open and free nature of the project.

What does this have to do with 3RR?  The 3RR provides additional
incentives to use socks.  Anyone remember "Quickpolls?"  Socks were a
real problem there, and were one of the things that led to the rising
tension between Wik and Cantus, as each made accusations of the other
reverting using socks.  Having airtight 3RR enforcement with no way to
identify socks is rather like having a door but no walls.

When one user is respecting the 3RR and the other is evading it with a
sock, there is no way to restore fairness, because the true identity of
the sock cannot be proven.  This is a strong incentive to people to
disregard community norms, and would be damaging to the fabric of the
community.

The Uninvited Co., Inc.
(a Delaware corporation)


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Wiktionary Logo

body:
 In the Polish Wiktionary we are discussing the local version of
 the logo[*].

 The problem is that
 * the original logo is English-centric and difficult to make local
   (translate)
 * it's a nice design, but not really a logo, it does not contain
   a recognisable sign (that is clear among others on main pages
   of several projects where miniatures of 'sister projects' logos
   are shown)

 That's why we've come up with an alternative logo (containing a sign,
 easy to translate). You can see it here:
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tsca_wiktionary_logo2.png

 Now, the questions are:
 * should we launch an inter-Wiktionary debate on a new logo?
  or
 * do we allow some Wiktionaries to use an alternative logo?

 Please, comment on that.

---------------
 [*] - discussion in PL: http://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wikis%C5%82ownik:Logo
--
 tsca * Tomasz Sienicki


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fwd: Banned from editing except on en

body:
Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
> > You are banned from editing at any wikipedia site other than en.
>
> Personally (and with all due respect to Jimbo), I'd prefer that
> judgement be left to individual Wikipedias to decide, per their usual
> policy of banning users.

The problem is: he has been making annoying edits on wikipedias that
do not have any current users.  He removed all the interlanguage links
from one, and replaced the standard boilerplate text with his own
message and email address.  When Angela fixed this, he reverted her.

This is just one example of an ongoing pattern of difficult behavior.

He is one of the main factors forcing us to pursue a policy locking or
closing small wikis, which is of course ironic, since he is an
activist for small language wikis.

He and I had a partly constructive dialogue about these issues earlier
today in IRC, and I am hopeful that some compromise can be worked out.

I admire his energy and enthusiasm, and I find him to be very bright.
But there have been several incidents that are just problematic to say
the least (look up the unresolved issue of sockpuppets for example),
and his hostility and personal attacks against people who are highly
respected in the community don't help at all.

I took this action at a global level rather than at an individual
project level, because that's where the problem has arisen.

If you want him to be able to edit at zh-min-nan, then that is enough
for me.  He can do that.  If anyone wants to vouch for him anywhere
else (in an active project), email me and it will be done.

--Jimbo


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Upload changes

body:
On Nov 15, 2004, at 6:24 AM, Andre Engels wrote:
> Is this on test or on all Wikipedias? On test, uploading went wrong,
> but that is probably because the 'Copyright status' en 'Source' fields
> were not used.

I haven't touched test. Test isn't regularly updated, and should
probably not be used for anything.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Single login - decision 2004

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Option 3 looks best to me. The trolling issue would be no worse than
> it is now.  One way to *improve* that potential issue would be to
> grandfather-in currently conflicting names as proposed in option 3
> but lock user names from now on.

Yes.  What I would say is that we should go with option 3, and that we
should prevent any *future* conflicts by making it simple for people
who do not currently have a name conflict to reserve their username
globally if they like (this should be the default for new accounts).

For people with name conflicts, this can be a valuable inducement for
them to eliminate the conflict - as long as you're conflicted, you
have no guarantee on the username in a new wiki.

And finally, I would agree with Angela that this should not be a board
decision at this point, but rather a very widely publicized community
poll.

--Jimbo


from_name: Matthew Trump

subject: [Wikitech-l] Mac OS X installation problem

body:
You're absolutely right, Brian. There was indeed a 'wikidb' database
created. I simply didn't know how to look for it (simultaneous
transition from Linux->Mac OSX and MySql 3.23->4.1 causing me
confusion evidently). I can probably troubleshoot manually now, with
the db created. I'll update the Mediawiki pages on Mac OSX
installation with anything appropriate that I find. Thanks.

Brian Vibber wrote:

> > Also the line states wikidb exists. In fact, when I check using the
> > command line client, the wikidb does not in fact exist.

>Well, that's an interesting twist. In order to get as far as it does,
>it would have had to test for the existence of various tables and
>fields in tables in the database... so you have a database *somewhere*.
>:)


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] Special:Upload changes

body:
Is this on test or on all Wikipedias? On test, uploading went wrong,
but that is probably because the 'Copyright status' en 'Source' fields
were not used.

Andre Engels

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 05:08:34 -0800, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> I've made some changes to Special:Upload while fixing up some file
> overwriting problems ( http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/548 ). I don't
> think it should break any upload bots, but please check if you have
> problems.
>
> The form interface when it asks for user confirmation (eg for
> overwriting) is slightly different; it runs more of the fields through
> the session instead of the form.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>


from_name: Geoffrey Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] URLS of Possible Interest

body:
The following two links I have stumbled across in the last few days, oddly
enough, seem to have some relevance to a couple of topics discussed here
lately. I pass them along for consideration & discussion by the rest of
you:

1. The NYT has been discussing the problems of using "unidentified sources"
& the effect it has on credibility. The memo at the link below reminded
me of the perenniel problem of quoting one's sources, & avoiding weasel
words of the form ``Some people believe"

http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/11/11/siegal_mem.html

2. Groklaw has a review of the book _The Wisdom of Crowds_ by James Surowiecki,
wherein he argues that when used intelligently a group of more-or-less average
people can produce more accurate results than a team of experts -- much like
a Wiki

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20041107180408325

Geoff


subject: [Wikitech-l] Validation

body:
I have looked at the validation option on test, and want to make the
following remarks:

* Can the categories be changed/extended? Outside WikipediaEN (maybe
de), suitability for 1.0 is not an interesting point, and legality is
I think not an issue to do via page validation (most pages are fully
legal anyway). On the other hand, I would like to add options as
"neutrality" and "balance" (although perhaps only 'neutrality' might
also be enough); also, the possibility to specify the validator's own
knowledge of the subject would be good (if an expert considers an
article "solid as a rock" or "extensive" that means more than when
someone off the street does so).

* Putting suitability for 1.0 in a single binary choice is too
simplistic. There are different reasons to consider an article
unsuitable, and various in-between possibilities. I can think of at
least:
** Suitable
** Subject unsuitable
** Subject suitable but article unsuitable
** Suitable in shortened form
** Suitable after improving style/completeness/factuality/neutrality

* Comments given with the validation seem to be discarded; at least I
cannot find them back

* Would it not be better to change the validation statistics. Those
percentages and numbers seem to be more confusing than helping,
whereas getting the separate validations (instead of just the totals)
would be interesting. I am thinking of something like (I hope it looks
a bit ok in everyone's favorite font...)

version blabla   |  validation 1 |  4  |  3  |  4  |  2  |  0 |  1  |
                         |  validation 2 |  3  |  -  |   2  |  4  |  1 |  1  |
                          | validation 3 |  4  |  -  |  -   |   -  |  -  |  0  |
                          | average     | 3.7 | 3.0 | 3.0 | 3.0 | 0.5 | 0.7|

* Nicks of validators are not given; is this on purpose? I can see
both advantages and disadvantages. Advantage is that one will be less
inclined to give a better judgement because of personal reasons, or to
attack the messenger. Disadvantage is that one cannot check whether a
high or low rating is real or just created by sockpuppets or such.

Andre Engels


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki developers' conference at 21C3

body:
Tim Pritlove needs a list of developers who are going to be attending
the MediaWiki developers' conference meeting at 21C3 in Berlin this
December.

If you will be there and haven't yet signed yourself up at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/21C3/MediaWiki_developer_conference
please do so. Thanks!

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: cdamvvwgs at gmx.ch

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Baseldytsch Wikipedia: Who can put it online?

body:
Hello dear Wikipedians,
I listed a proposal for a Wikipedia in Baseldytsch (a swiss-german dialect
in Switzerland with its own dictionary and orthography, about one million
speakers; see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/
Request_for_new_language). I'm currently translating the interface (http:/
/meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Locales_for_the_Wikipedia_Software), but is there
anyone who can put the Baseldytsch Wikipedia online under the domain http:
//bsd.wikipedia.org/ ??? If yes, please do so! Or send me an e-mail how to
do so. Thank you very much,
CdaMVvWgS

--
Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail + 3 Top-Spielfilme auf DVD
++ Jetzt kostenlos testen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ++


from_name: Henry H. Tan-Tenn

body:
 > You are banned from editing at any wikipedia site other than en.

Personally (and with all due respect to Jimbo), I'd prefer that
judgement be left to individual Wikipedias to decide, per their usual
policy of banning users.

Specifically, I personally wouldn't mind if Mark edit on zh-min-nan.
Evidence suggests that he is not a fluent speaker or writer of Southern
Min by any measure, but at the same time he has also shown some
willingness to learn.  That willingness may well just be curiosity or
dabbling, but those tendencies are not themselves evil.  Regardless of
his ultimate attainment in proficiency (if any), a degree of "language
exploration" might even be encouraged.  In practice this could mean
devoting more community resources to correcting the learner's sentences,
but so long as the errors are made in good faith and not meant to
disrupt, they will be corrected in the usual wiki way.

Of course, if Mark were to engage in spamming (on zh-min-nan) or other
actions based on bad faith, he'd become a candidate for censure,
including the possibility of banning.  Until and unless that occurs on
zh-min-nan, I'd personally not mind participation from him (or anyone).

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales <jwales at wikia.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:26:10 -0800
> Subject: Banned from editing except on en
> To: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> Cc: Angela <beesley at gmail.com>, anthere9-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
>
>
> As a courtesy to you, Mark, I'm not going to make a big public
> spectacle of this, but if you would like to take it public, please do
> so.  I just see no reason at this juncture to put you through the
> embarassment of a public ban.
>
> You are banned from editing at any wikipedia site other than en.  I
> will make an adjustment to this if you can convince me that you are
> fluent in any other language.  It is simply unacceptable for you to
> continue making edits to minor language wikis in the way that you
> have.
>
> We could enforce this ban at a technical level if we had to, but you
> know how our system works enough to see that it would be quite a lot
> of work for us.  I don't think I've seen enough evidence of bad faith
> on your part to think that you'd do that.
>
> --Jimbo


from_name: Stan Shebs

body:
Chuck0 wrote:

> jeff wrote:
>
>> Chuck, stop dissing one of my favorite Internet projects. ;)
>
>
> That's what I do best. I'm a librarian, media activist and anarchist.
> My role is to ask questions and be a curmudgeon.
>
> I've written criticism about Wikipedia on my blog, both positive and
> negative. As a librarian, I think that it is an awesome project, which
> really should be better appreciated by people who are stuck in past
> paradigms about "information accuracy." As an anarchist, Wikipedia
> troubles me. While the open source nature of the project is very
> anarchistic, I'm really pissed that right wing assholes are allowed to
> post falsehoods to the entry on "anarchism." This problem forced me to
> discontinue my participation in the project.

"*Allowed* to post"? Maybe you're not quite as much of an anarchist
as you thought. :-)

Stan


from_name: jeff

body:
Chuck0 wrote:
> Jama Poulsen wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 07:05:46PM -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo)
Wales wrote:
> >>http://demo.wikinews.org/
> > Has anyone been thinking about how Wikinews could cooperate
> > with the Independent Media Center (IMC) project
> > (http://www.indymedia.org)?
>
> I'm skeptical about this idea. What is the political
> orientation of Wikinews?

My guess is that it would have the "Neutral Point of View". I've
been impressed at how well wikipedia has been able to maintain
this goal on controversial subjects.

> Indymedia exists as an alternative
> media space for the political left (broadly defined). Is
> Wikinews apolitical, left-leaning, or friendly towards
> neo-fascists?

That's a bit harsh. Can you point to a single wikipedia article
that has been friendly to neo-fascists?

Indymedia is "left-leaning" but could certainly be an
automated/semi-automated contributor to wikinews even if there
are viewpoints on there that are generally not on Indymedia.
Wikinews could have both, like news.google. Wikinews is
probably more sympathetic to Indymedia than google as well.
See the wikipedia entry on Indymedia--it's current & good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indymedia

Or take a look at their entry on Anarchism (which nicely links
to Chuck's infoshop.org):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

> I've been told that Wikipedia is run by right
> wing libertarians, so hwo do we know that the volunteer work
> put into a joint project won't be exploited by venture
> capitalists when they try to turn Wikipedia into an IPO?

wikipedia is a non-profit and the articles are under the GFDL. I
doubt it will ever go IPO... For more info, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Overview_FAQ#Who_owns_Wikipedia.3F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home

If it ever does turn commercial, you can download the /entire/
database and set up your own wikipedia and do whatever you want
with the articles as long as you comply with the GFDL. See:
http://download.wikimedia.org/

I wish Indymedia database dumps were publicly available!

> I'm opposed to this partnership until it can be determined
> how Indymedia would benefit from any partnership with a newly
> launched project.

It could benefit by wider distribution of Indymedia content.
Wikipedia has a huge audience, and deservedly so. In general,
I'm in favor of collaboration between wikinews & indymedia.

Chuck, stop dissing one of my favorite Internet projects. ;)

Thanks,

-Jeff


from_name: Ulf Lunde

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: no:/nb:/nn:/etc. - modified suggestion

body:
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 23:53:56 -0500, Olve Utne <utne at nvg.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:10:12 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
>>
>> what would http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noreg redirect to?
>
> Try this:
> http://nb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noreg
>
> Yes, this does take you to the Norsk (bokm?l) article Norge, where you can
> then click on the interwiki link to Nynorsk (soon probably to be renamed
> Norsk (nynorsk)) to be taken to the Nynorsk article Noreg. I think this is
> a relatively minor problem that is outweighed by the general advantages of
> the drafted solution.

Hmmm...  This looks like much more than a "minor problem" to me.

A Gedankenexperiment:
What would bokm?l users say if we turned the chairs around, making
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norge point to http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noreg,
and making them click on "norsk (bokm?l)" to read about "Norge"?

I'll tell you what they (we) would say: "we will not accept it"!

So what makes you say that nynorsk users should put up with it?

> There is an alternative solution though[, which] can be done quite easily
> in specific cases by creating a disambiguation page on nb: -- in this particular
> case it would contain links to :nb:Norge and :nn:Noreg

What if the title is exactly the same in "norsk (bokm?l)" and "norsk (nynorsk)",
which will in fact be the case for at least half of all articles?
Should http://no.wikipedia.org  then automatically make the choice for you
and send you to bokm?l, even if the nynorsk article is bigger or better?
What if the bokm?l article is a stub and the nynorsk one isn't?

To me, point 4) of Olve's proposal does not seem like an acceptable way to go.

Olve and some others have actually listed "relative size of community" as an
argument *for* letting "no:" point to bokm?l only.  If anything, that should be
an argument for promoting nynorsk; certainly not bokm?l!   It sounds to me
like some of the people here are taking it for granted that the bokm?l community
will always stay bigger than the nynorsk community, "so why not just resign and
give the bokm?l camp exclusive rights to the common language code"?

That, I believe, is what's called a "self-fulfilling prophecy"!  At least
it is definitely the opposite of promoting equality between the languages.

The best argument for creating (not keeping!) a bokm?l Wikipedia on "no:"
that I have heard so far, came from Lars Alvik:
 > no: and nn: is right next to each other, compared to nb: and nn:
(nl: in between),
 > so in a alfabetizied interwikilist, nynorsk and bokm?l would get splitted.

However, I think this beauty flaw is better solved by sorting the
interwiki links by their
legible output rather than by their cryptic language codes.  (This
would require no
extra work when adding new interwiki codes, unless you do not know the name
of the language you are adding, in which case you probably shouldn't be the one
adding it anyway.  Reordering existing interwiki links could be a nice
little task for a bot.)

Ulf Lunde


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.3.8 released

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

MediaWiki 1.3.8 is a bugfix release. Those running wikis with uploads
enabled are strongly recommended to upgrade as this fixes several
problems
with overwriting previously-uploaded files.

(Users already running 1.3.7 who want only the upload fix need copy in
only the updated SpecialUpload.php. However including all updated files
is recommended as there are a number of other bug fixes.)

Changes from 1.3.7:
* (bug 506) fix array_key_exists() warning for IIS servers using
   ISAPI mode
* (bug 718) fix bad charset in (file) cached pages
* use local numerals in category page (for Hindi et al)
* alias month abbreviations to month names in Hindi
* add localized numerals for Gujarati and Kannada
* fix Category and project namespaces for Hindi
* Don't output bogus timestamp on Special:Recentchanges if no entries
* Correct template include path which broke some but not all Windows
installs
* Fix edit form submission problem with some PHP versions
* Disallow unreachable titles with %XX hex codes
* Allow page [[0]] to be renamed
* (bug 774) when saving with section=new, return to the anchor as with
   existing numbered section edits
* Experimental shared upload overlay area (disabled by default)
* (bug 806) Removed some "Wikipedia" hardcoding in German localization
* User option localization fix for some extensions
* (bug 809) now try to load the mysql php extension if it isn't loaded
* (bug 848) fix error message in Special:Newpages RSS and Atom feeds
* (bug 26) fix cache headers on anon talk page notification
* (bug 874) added 'cgi' to wgFileBlacklist
* (bug 862) localize date and time format for Finnish
* (bug 548) Don't overwrite images until the user confirms it

Release notes:
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=282945

Download:
http://prdownloads.sf.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.3.8.tar.gz?download

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Jama Poulsen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikinews demo launches!

body:
On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 07:05:46PM -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
> http://demo.wikinews.org/
>
> After the successful wikinews vote
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Vote
>
> the board has discussed and decided to move forward with this project!
> This will also give people more of a chance to discuss the proposed
> policies before the site goes live.

Has anyone been thinking about how Wikinews could cooperate with the
Independent Media Center (IMC) project (http://www.indymedia.org)?

The goals of these two news projects seem quite similar to me, and both
projects could use the technical and editorial help from people at the
other project.

There are ofcourse some challenging issues:
  - legal aspects (organizations, liability, copyrights)
  - technical incompatibilities (software, site structures, accounts, lists)
  - hosting and bandwidth issues
  - editorial policies and processes

On the technical side, the following questions would probably be important:
  - Could the MediaWiki software (http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net) be used
    by the IMC sites?
    (research: drawbacks/benefits, changes needed, development time, etc.)
  - Could all the IMC content be imported properly?

In short, it seems to me that if these two projects could join forces,
the end result would be more than just Wikinews and IMC separately.

regards,

Jama Poulsen [User:Walden]


from_name: Anthere

body:
Mathias Schindler a ?crit:
> Robert McHenry is Former Editor in Chief, the Encyclop?dia Britannica,
> and author of How to Know (Booklocker.com, 2004).
>
> ...and besides his former job, he has written an 'interesting' piece of
> paper about wikipedia
>
> "The Faith-Based Encyclopedia"
>
> http://www.techcentralstation.com/111504A.html
>
> "The user who visits Wikipedia to learn about some subject, to confirm
> some matter of fact, is rather in the position of a visitor to a public
> restroom. It may be obviously dirty, so that he knows to exercise great
> care, or it may seem fairly clean, so that he may be lulled into a false
> sense of security. What he certainly does not know is who has used the
> facilities before him."

Now... This is a strange comparison... :-(


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: Wiktionary Logo

body:
A logo less english centric is a good idea and I am happy some editors
are taking interest in this :-)

I would highly recommand that all wiktionaries have the same logo, as it
is an important mark to identify one common project. We are not a
collection of different projects, but one project in different languages.
This indeed suggest an approval at least at the whole wiktionary project.

Recently, a debate took place as well with regards the wikicommons logo.
This debate suggests to me that any logo change should be accompanied by
a formal poll at the global wiktionary level, as well as with mention to
the global mailing lists.

Incidently, the logo should be owned by the foundation so as to protect
it. So, how the logo should look is entirely debatable, but the license
of the logo itself is not really debatable. Before any logo contest, it
should be made clear that the logo will not be copyrighted by its author.

I sent this mail in copy to foundation.

Anthere

Muke Tever a ?crit:
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:14:27 +0100, Tomasz Sienicki
> <tsca at edb.dk> wrote:
>
>>  The problem is that
>>  * the original logo is English-centric and difficult to make local
>>    (translate)
>>  * it's a nice design, but not really a logo, it does not contain
>>    a recognisable sign (that is clear among others on main pages
>>    of several projects where miniatures of 'sister projects' logos
>>    are shown)
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>>  That's why we've come up with an alternative logo (containing a sign,
>>  easy to translate). You can see it here:
>>  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tsca_wiktionary_logo2.png
>>
>>  Now, the questions are:
>>  * should we launch an inter-Wiktionary debate on a new logo?
>>   or
>>  * do we allow some Wiktionaries to use an alternative logo?
>
>
> The former.  It would be good to have a graphic in the logo along with
> the translatable title, just like the other wikimedia wikis.
>
>
>     *Muke!


body:
jeff wrote:

> Chuck, stop dissing one of my favorite Internet projects. ;)

That's what I do best. I'm a librarian, media activist and anarchist. My
role is to ask questions and be a curmudgeon.

I've written criticism about Wikipedia on my blog, both positive and
negative. As a librarian, I think that it is an awesome project, which
really should be better appreciated by people who are stuck in past
paradigms about "information accuracy." As an anarchist, Wikipedia
troubles me. While the open source nature of the project is very
anarchistic, I'm really pissed that right wing assholes are allowed to
post falsehoods to the entry on "anarchism." This problem forced me to
discontinue my participation in the project.

Chuck


body:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:44:04 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
<jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
> > > You are banned from editing at any wikipedia site other than en.
> >
> > Personally (and with all due respect to Jimbo), I'd prefer that
> > judgement be left to individual Wikipedias to decide, per their usual
> > policy of banning users.
>
> The problem is: he has been making annoying edits on wikipedias that
> do not have any current users.  He removed all the interlanguage links
> from one, and replaced the standard boilerplate text with his own
> message and email address.  When Angela fixed this, he reverted her.

"annoying edits" are not grounds for banning on ANY Wikipedia. Do they
violate policy? Not that I can see. Do they disrupt the workings? Hah!
There are no workings. Replacing boilerplate text in English with text
in the target language may be annoying to YOU, but to speakers of that
language it is more likely to be seen as a gesture which seeks to
invite them to participate and make them more comfortable.

As I noted before, I am not 100% sure of the things I wrote in
articles on bo: or sq: (but I didn't write hundreds of articles, and I
know they're at least not totally gibberish), but unless I note
otherwise for any other text I post, I do not have any doubt that it
is 100% correct (unless it's not grammatically, in which case I can
easily do some fact-checking before posting)

Perhaps we should show these people the edit you are talking about?
http://fj.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=1459

As you can clearly see, compared to the version that was there
previously, it is preferrable because there is actually content IN THE
TARGET LANGUAGE (if you wish to assert it is somehow incorrect, I
would respectfully request that you confirm that beforehand with a
professional translator or areal linguist unless you claim to speak
the language yourself and can offer an explanation or correction)

If you found the removal of interwiki links (which wasn't intentional
- I just removed all existing text and replaced it with Fijian
content, not intending to remove interwiki links) to be a problem, yet
rather than fixing it you complained instead, perhaps you need to
review the basic principles of Wikipedia: you can fix anything
somebody else messes up.

In fact, NOBODY tried to change anything on the page except to add the
article count, which I did not revert.

In fact, I WAS THE ONE TO ADD THE BOILERPLATE TEXT AND INTERWIKI LINKS
BACK because Jimbo was pissed.

However Angela did indeed revert a contribution on another Wikipedia,
although in that case it did not contain my e-mail address (and again,
how is the e-mail address against policy? quite a few Wikipedias,
including inactive ones, do that already). Since she simply specified
in the edit summary that it was "vandalism", I reverted her edits with
an edit summary "isibusi vandalism" - she had removed legitimate,
target-language content and replaced it with content in English.

Clearly, the Wikipedian thing to do if you're irritated over the fact
that somebody has removed the interwiki links in a page is to re-add
them, rather then revert completely, and if it occurs again *and* it
turns out to be an established user from another Wikipedia, rather
than looking to ban that user from that project you should make a note
on the talkpage.

As you can well see, now the mainpage at http://ve.wikipedia.org/ has
now had the links added AS WELL AS a bit of Tshivenda text, with an
internal link to an article in Venda (currently the only article).

If the article is deleted and the mainpage is reverted NOW, the only
possible explanation would be that people don't like Venda, and for
this reason I don't think it will happen.

> This is just one example of an ongoing pattern of difficult behavior.

An "ongoing pattern of difficult behaviour"? Let's see, other than
that what did I do?

I have been accused of:

1. Terrorising the Kashmiri Wikipedia with one sockpuppet, then using
another sockpuppet to reconcile and gain adminship, then the day after
I got in trouble, registering a gazillion more sockpuppets. Supposedly
all these users have the same IPs and passwords as me, but I still
highly doubt that.

2. Replacing almost every single article on the Toki Pona Wikipedia
with a copyvio notice. This has already been discussed extensively,
and unlike #1 on this list, I actually did do it.

3. Adding en: to a list of inactive Wikis, reverting its removal by an
anon (note, an anon) twice, and then reverting its removal by Danny
once. It may have been a "silly game", but nevertheless the reasons I
gave for its presence on the list make perfect sense. I was
subsequently banned from all projects (for 24 hours according to
Danny, however it was actually a few hours more) against policy by
Danny (when I asked him what he did wrong, he actually said "you tell
me" and refused to tell what I had done wrong OR cite policy).

4. Helping small Wikipedias with various tasks, for example small
cleanup tasks, removing vandalism and spam, etc.

5. Translating "directory" content for the mainpages of a few dead or
inactive Wikipedias.

6. Creating logos for a number of Wikipedias, in some cases on request
but in others I actually seeked out somebody from the Wikipedia and
told them the service was available.

7. Trying to raise awareness of the inactive Wikipedia projects among
their language communities via e-mail, postings in forums, and instant
messaging (so far no phonecalls or snailmail), with a very low
response rate.

I don't see how this amounts to an "ongoing pattern of difficult
behavior" unless you just plain hate me and think everything I do is
"difficult", although I'm pretty sure that isn't the case.

> He is one of the main factors forcing us to pursue a policy locking or
> closing small wikis, which is of course ironic, since he is an
> activist for small language wikis.

The two actions which you cited actually occured AFTER such actions
had reached their climax, and were in fact almost solely because of
what you were doing.

> He and I had a partly constructive dialogue about these issues earlier
> today in IRC, and I am hopeful that some compromise can be worked out.
>
> I admire his energy and enthusiasm, and I find him to be very bright.
> But there have been several incidents that are just problematic to say
> the least (look up the unresolved issue of sockpuppets for example),
> and his hostility and personal attacks against people who are highly
> respected in the community don't help at all.

I have been attacked privately by more than one "highly respected"
community member. What this says to me is that they are more cowardly.

> I took this action at a global level rather than at an individual
> project level, because that's where the problem has arisen.

Again, I think this is more of a perceived problem than an actual one.

> If you want him to be able to edit at zh-min-nan, then that is enough
> for me.  He can do that.  If anyone wants to vouch for him anywhere
> else (in an active project), email me and it will be done.
>

Oh, I can vouch for myself on all projects except tokipona:. :p In
addition I have recently made numerous edits to a few non-English
Wikipedias where I wrote original content or made significant changes.

I find it quite upsetting that with each language I want to edit,
somehow this amounts to a claim that I speak the language.

I claim only to speak English and Other.

Mark


from_name: A. Decorte

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for new Wikipedia: Friulian

body:
Scrive Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>:
> A. Decorte wrote:
>
> >Hello, I'm the user (Klenje) who was quoted at the beginning in the
> request;
> >I'm a friulian speaker, I'm active in italian wiki, and there are other
> friulian
> >people like me outside in the net (don't forget that Friulian is spoken by
> more
> >than half million people), therefore i think there is the chance for a
> decent
> >friulian wikipedia to be created; I can show you several site in friulian,
> and
> >if they aren't more, this is due to the policy of italian government which
> so
> >far doesn't promote minorities within Italy. Friulian speakers share this
> >problem with sardinian and sicilian ones, but in my opionion wikipedia
> could
> >help changing this situation; the only risk in creating a friulian wiki is
> the
> >possibility of vandalism, but every wiki is started from few users and
> there
> >are many ways to prevent it.
> >
> I don't think that there is wide objection to having a Friulian
> Wikipedia.  The validity of the language is solid.  My own objection to
> the initial proposal was based on the fact that the person doing all the
> promoting did not himself know the language.  The initiative,
> administration and other work to make such a project a success needs to
> come from people who know the language.
>
> Ec

Yes, this is right and that's why I came on the mailing list, to show that
there
is one someone interested who can speak friulian.
Regards