body:
Op-ed: Content Translation beta is coming to the English Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/Op-ed

News and notes: Board of Trustees propose bylaw amendments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/News_and_notes

In the media: Turkish Wikipedia censorship; "Can Wikipedia survive?"; PR editing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/In_the_media

Special report: Small impact of the large Google Translation Project on Telugu Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/Special_report

Recent research: How Wikipedia built governance capability; readability of plastic surgery articles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/Recent_research

Featured content: One eye when begun, two when it's done
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/Featured_content

Blog: 7,473 volumes at 700 pages each: meet ''Print Wikipedia''
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/Blog

Arbitration report: Politics by other means: The American politics 2 arbitration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/Arbitration_report

Technology report: 2015 MediaWiki architecture focus and Multimedia roadmap announced
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24/Technology_report

Single page view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Single/2015-06-24

PDF version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-06-24

https://www.facebook.com/wikisignpost / https://twitter.com/wikisignpost
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In the media: Jimmy Wales accepts Dan David Prize
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-05-20/In_the_media

WikiProject report: Cell-ebrating Molecular Biology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-05-20/WikiProject_report

Arbitration report: Editor conduct the subject of multiple cases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-05-20/Arbitration_report

Featured content: Puppets, fungi, and waterfalls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-05-20/Featured_content

Traffic report: Inner Core
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-05-20/Traffic_report

Single page view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Single/2015-05-20

PDF version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-05-20

https://www.facebook.com/wikisignpost / https://twitter.com/wikisignpost
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body:
could be in the future). Even so, I am sure all WMF employees have enough
money to buy bottled water. I know, of course, they are not in the same
position as Google or Facebook employees, but I think the whole story is
not about water safety of our headquarters.

It's about responsibility. WMF shouldn't spend resources unreasonably if it
doesn't have to. And it's not just about possible "fund for water", which
could become a standard for every Bay Area employer, but also about the
environmental harm of the attitude of keeping yourself in hostile place if
not necessary.

United States don't have the same climate everywhere. There are many places
not that endangered because of the climate change. And I am sure you could
find a good place for the office somewhere else. (OK, Florida is the second
worst option because of floods, but there are many better places.)

I know it doesn't sound solidary. We have a number of friends in Bay Area,
not working for WMF and not willing to move. However, WMF's responsibility
is far beyond local patriotism.

Keep in mind that it's better to move in a year or two and be able to
choose the place, than to do it in five years, when Google decides to move
it's own headquarters.

And we should start talking about this. We need to analyze the risks and
then WMF should make the best possible decision at the best possible time.
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body:
That last point is important, incidentally. Wikimedia has many, many issues. So far, all these issues have been seemingly derailed because Lila and others felt that they could focus on search. Search was *always* something that everyone agreed needed to be addressed. But it’s not a panacea.

The consequences of such secrecy and an inability to listen, or to consult properly, have now had tragic consequences. There have been over 12 people leave the WMF to go onto other paid jobs. Pillars of the WMF, such as Siko, have left because they don’t feel they can work in a place that isn’t open, transparent and with people who are accountable for their actions. There has been negative press, and many of our community feel deeply disenfranchised by the acts performed, directly and indirectly, by members of the BoT.

There must be accountability. To start with, James needs to be advised why he was removed. If there was no cause for him to be removed, which is legal under Florida law, then he should be reinstated. An investigation should be done about who knew what about the Knowledge Engine debacle. The various concerns of the Funds Dissemination Committee don’t ever appear to have been addressed properly, and I note that there was a complaint with the FDC Ombudsperson; so that needs to be addressed forthwith, and an explanation given to the wider community about problems around grants and grant applications.

I would personally like to see better accountability around direction and strategy. The BoT must be accountable and in all possible cases their discussions about WMF business should be known to the wider community. If some Trustees feel that they cannot abide by greater scrutiny, then I would like to see them vacate their position. Obviously for issues that must be confidential, then that is another matter. But it should be at the very least noted that confidential matters were discussed, and as much context given as possible.

I would also like auditors to go through Wikimedia to give us some assurance that funds have been spent and allocated correctly.

== Summing it all up ==

So to sum up the issues here:

1. The Wikimedia Board of Trustees is not meeting its own charter. There is a total *lack* of transparency, much of what is done by Board members is done in secrecy and without the input of the community. The Board does not publish adequate minutes. It has very little accountability.

2. There is intimidation and denigration of members of the Board of Trustees. This has very clearly happened to James, people are still slighting his good character and yet it has never been made clear, in any way, why he was removed from the WMF. The *founder* of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales, thinks it’s OK to abuse James. At least one Board member has besmirched his good name, but will not or cannot give specific examples as to why he felt he couldn't trust James with confidential information. Denny says that others on the Board feel the same way, but yet again I say: James never gave anyone any cause to believe this.

This is a very important and serious issue. Staff have repeatedly mentioned they feel intimidated. This denigration and intimidation is beginning to permeate the WMF. It is a cancer eating away at the WMF. It is caused by closed-thinking, a lack of transparency and a sense amongst some in top-management that they are entitled to do anything they want, and that they don’t need to listen to anyone except their fellow board members.

3. The Board must be made accountable. The debacle that is the Knowledge Engine has done untold damage to the WMF, and it must be independently reviewed and a report given as to what happened, and who is responsible for the damage it has caused us. Those at the top should also be accountable for their actions. Jimmy should, at the very least, apologise for his dreadful behaviour on the Wiki towards James. The Board should be accountable for the removal of James Heilman, and in accounting for their actions should be able to clearly explain the cause of them to lose trust in him, and then subsequently remove him from the Board. Meetings must be made more open, and those on the BoT who don’t want more scrutiny should be asked to excuse themselves from the Board.

None of this will be easy. None of this has been easy to write! But I write this open letter to raise issues I feel I cannot keep quiet about, and to urge the community and those in the Wikimedia Foundation to do the difficult by necessary actions needed to restore faith in the WMF.

Regards,
Chris Sherlock

1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles>

2. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2015-11-07 <https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2015-11-07>

3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:James_Heilman_Removal <https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:James_Heilman_Removal>

4. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0600-0699/0617/0617.html <http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0600-0699/0617/0617.html>

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=701673700&oldid=701673178 <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=701673700&oldid=701673178>

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJimbo_Wales&type=revision&diff=701942197&oldid=701941999 <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&type=revision&diff=701942197&oldid=701941999>

7. https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-January/080827.html <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-January/080827.html>

8. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/2015_Strategy_Consultation_Report.pdf <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/2015_Strategy_Consultation_Report.pdf>

9. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2015-06-28 <https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2015-06-28>


body:
I wish everyone the best, and I truly mean that - including Jimmy, Lila, Denny and others who I have criticised. The WMF is truly an important force for good in this world, and as any true Wikipedian (even an inactive one) I want a strong Board of Trustees, with independent and wise leadership.

Chris

1. https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082639.html


body:
only you Emeric and the old direction as a whole
that your declaration don't match the facts or your subsequent
declaration, as it it happened during the #bandeaugate in summer last year.

I have still to see the said "lies" from your opponent which contradicts
other public information (apart the words of you and the old direction)

Xavier Combelle

Le 23/11/2017 à 20:54, Emeric Vallespi a écrit :
> Sylvain,
>
> I have to answer to your email where you’re especially lying.
> You say that you’re writing on behalf of a union section of the employees of Wikimedia France but I’m personally curious to know the weight of this union section. My question is actually: who else is represented by your email, if not yourself?
>
> Moreover, you’re saying that you received a « warning » (?) because you had a girlfriend. Is it serious?
> Your employer asked you to distinguish professional time and personal time. Indeed, you were reminded that you had to dedicate your work hours to the missions that were devoted to you and not to solve problems related to your personal life, especially if it interferes with organization’s activities and governance. It is also you who came, on your own, to tell us about the complexity of your personal and relationship situation in order to benefit of professional arrangements. The direction never looked for, nor asked, any information on this subject.
>
> You’re mentioning the cancellation of the letter. Since, to my knowledge, no sanction has been filed to your HR record, I do not really see what have been canceled.
> I can understand that supporting your new board of trustees, involved in the governance issues and in the criminal complaints filed is critical to show your loyalty.
>
> Do you know how impatient am I to discover your next fable? I guess the only one never mentioned yet is maybe about a murder or something (although a streetfight scenario has already been invented x’D).
>
> I think it was important to re-explain all those points so that the community, which is - again - unnecessarily taken as witness, is not deceived by a scenario built from scratch.
> Again, to discredit the movement by such erroneous but public accusations still shows that only personal interests and vainness matter in this conflict with some people.
>
> For months, several lies have been told by different people. Because the Wikimedia community protect itself and its members by harassing and defaming people who question the probity and integrity of some of its members doesn’t make of this lies the truth.
>
> Best regards to all of you,
> --
> Emeric Vallespi
>
>> On 22 Nov 2017, at 13:37, Sylvain Boissel <sylvain.boissel at wikimedia.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Katherine,
>>
>> 2017-10-19 23:19 GMT+02:00 Katherine Maher <kmaher at wikimedia.org>:
>>
>>> [...]
>>> We are committed to working with the new Wikimédia France conseil
>>> d’administration (governing board) to support the French community as they
>>> work to address and resolve these and other outstanding issues. The
>>> Wikimedia Foundation and the new leadership of Wikimédia France are already
>>> cooperating to address the governance-related concerns raised by the
>>> volunteer Funds Dissemination Committee in the first half of 2017. As part
>>> of this work, we have encouraged them to review how they will independently
>>> handle claims of harassment in the future. The Wikimedia Foundation and
>>> Wikimédia France share a common goal: a healthy, welcoming, respectful,
>>> inclusive Wikimedia community in France.
>>>
>>> I know I am not alone in my dismay for how these events have unfolded. Many
>>> dedicated, good-faith members of the French community, including current
>>> community members and present and former Wikimédia France board and staff
>>> members, have experienced distress and anxiety over recent months. Those
>>> outside of the community have watched with dismay as our peers and friends
>>> have found themselves disoriented, distressed, alienated, or at odds with
>>> one another. And yet we also know that many in France now feel a renewed
>>> sense of purpose for building the healthy and welcoming community we all
>>> desire.
>> As the representative of the local branch of the labor union
>> ASSO-Solidaires at Wikimédia France, I wanted to thank you and the WMF
>> staff members who took part in the site visit in Paris in July  (namely
>> Katy Love, Winifred Olliff, Stephen Laporte and James Baldwin) for hearing
>> the distress of the staff members at a time when Wikimédia France's board
>> plainly refused to discuss with the staff.
>>
>> I also wanted to confirm that things are getting better with the new board
>> elected in September.
>>
>> I cannot speak about what my coworkers went through without asking them
>> first, but I can share an example from my own story: in February, I was
>> issued a « rappel à l'ordre » (warning) by the former direction and
>> board, accusing
>> me of disloyalty to the chapter because I had a girlfriend. It was
>> cancelled this month by the new board, and this is a huge relief to me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Sylvain.
>>
>> --
>> *Sylvain Boissel*
>> Délégué du personnel et Responsable de la section syndicale ASSO-Solidaires
>> *WIKIMÉDIA FRANCE*
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body:
Do you really feel that this is a serious investigation? Honestly?
Why did not these lawyers also hear Nathalie?
Why did these lawyers not ask questions to the Wikimédia France Board of trustees members? Only with the testimony of the defendant himself, the Wikimedia Foundation today states that there is no problem. ...
During the site visit, Nathalie proposed to the Wikimedia Foundation representatives to organize a confrontation. Not only did she have a flat denial, but, moreover, it was replied that it must not be addressed.
Why did the Wikimedia Foundation not accede to this request for confrontation? Not to know the truth which can be too embarrassing to assume?

We have a movement employee who brilliantly held management responsibilities for 4 years (great longevity for an Executive Director…) who asked for help. And what is the answer of the movement, of the Wikimedia Foundation? Nothing. Nothing was undertaken to give her any kind of listening or help.

Marie-Alice Mathis, who courageously expressed disapproval of the sexist harassment of Nathalie, was also harassed by community members. Nathalie and Marie-Alice suffered health damages and had medical leaves issued by real general practitioners. The Wikimedia Foundation was informed and what did you do? Nothing, or worst: two messages from your staff legitimizing the harassment and one from a member of your board who publicly stated against Wikimédia France without any prior contact with us.
What kind of help or support did you offer to Marie-Alice?

The outcome of the complaints is not even the issue at this stage and this is not my point (I’m not a judge as you or other community member think they are).
The real problem is that today a man in the movement, if he has power position, can do absolutely everything he wants without any control. The problem is, despite all the empty values you’re communicating on, you legitimize whatever the community does. Because the community is the measure of all things.
No objective process is foreseen to protect women (and more generally, people) or at least to hear them.
Do you find this normal for a movement that advocates inclusiveness and respect?

I’ve read an ardent defender of epicene style of writing who is accusing of lying other women because of their private then public declarations. Having no clue of what is in the procedure. Thank you for enlightening me about true fight with feminism.

I’m glad that « We take all allegations of harassment seriously », but I can not endorse this functioning which goes against legality and simply against human values.

N.B: English is not my native language, may you be as tolerant of my selected words or sentences construction as with harassing behavior. Thanks for your understanding.

Regards,
--
Emeric Vallespi

> On 11 Oct 2017, at 19:54, María Sefidari <kewlshrink at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>
> We would like to specifically address the allegations related to harassment
> in this thread’s original email. We take all allegations of harassment
> seriously. Earlier this year, the Board of Trustees was informed that
> allegations of harassment had been made against the Wikimedia Foundation
> Board Chair dating back to his time as chair of Wikimédia France. We
> immediately directed the Foundation to investigate. The Foundation employed
> independent, external experts and conducted an investigation. Based on the
> information presented, the investigation found no support for the
> allegations. That conclusion was conveyed to the Wikimedia Foundation Board
> as well as the chair of Wikimédia France.
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation remains committed to independent investigation if
> presented with new information. Absent such information, we consider the
> allegations to be without merit.
>
>
> On behalf of the Board,
>
>
> María Sefidari
>
> El 8 oct. 2017 5:20, "John Erling Blad" <jeblad at gmail.com> escribió:
>
> When I first saw the posts I thought it would probably be more opinions to
> them than the very clear blame-game that were going on. Having a partly
> anonymous community and a chapter that only represents some of the users
> are an invitation to fierce battles.
>
> Whatever going on at WMFR, I believe it is time for reevaluating the role
> of WMF in this. I'm wondering if there should be a new board for WMF,
> unless they get a new chair themselves asap. Reorganize, solve the
> problems, and move on.
>
> No, I do not know any of the people involved.
>
> John Erling Blad
> /jeblad
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Marie-Alice Mathis <
> mariealice.gariel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I haven’t had a real opportunity to introduce myself: I am Marie-Alice
>> Mathis, 32, a now ex-member of the Board of Wikimédia France.
>>
>> The transition with the newly elected members of the Board is now complete
>> and I gladly step down to get away from the violence, exhaustion and
>> frustration of these past few months.
>>
>> I was a Board candidate because after completing my PhD I finally had more
>> time to contribute to the projects and serve the community through the
>> French chapter: after watching my husband Rémi Mathis do it for years I
> had
>> a pretty good idea of what it meant. I did not know our ED Nathalie Martin
>> or our chair Émeric Vallespi before working with them, and now that I have
>> I can vouch for their hard work and attachment to the movement’s values.
>>
>> Today, I have lost friends or people I thought were friends because I
>> defended Nathalie and Émeric in good faith during the smear campaign based
>> on the community’s assumption that they were the source and cause of all
>> the chapter’s problems, real or perceived. Although I have worked with
> them
>> closely for a year, I have been repeatedly informed that I’ve been
>> manipulated by Nathalie from the start and should not have blindly
> believed
>> everything Émeric was saying. I’ve been personally attacked on WMF sites,
>> email lists, and social media for weeks, my every word scrutinised,
>> questioned and mocked assuming I was either ignorant or lying. I’ve been
>> told by so-called feminists who were endorsing a particularly sexist rant
>> against me to “stop making inflammatory comments”. I’ve been called a
>> conspiracy theorist because I questioned the role of our former chair
>> Christophe Henner, now chair of the Board at the WMF, in the threats to
>> withdraw our chapter agreement and the cutting of half our FDC funding.
>> People close to Christophe who have resigned from the WMFR Board early in
>> the crisis rather than take responsibility for their mistakes now call
>> themselves victims and whistleblowers. The WMF, who is perfectly aware of
>> the charges of sexual harassment filed by Nathalie against Christophe for
>> facts dating back to when he was her boss at Wikimédia France, is
>> pretending WMFR leadership has used the threat of legal action to
>> intimidate chapter members and silence opposition.
>>
>> Some unfounded allegations have been made on this very list by prominent
>> members of the community (and what is a newbie’s word worth in that case,
>> right?): from extremely serious accusations of misuse of chapter funds for
>> personal gain (that strangely enough never made it to the French justice
>> system despite a so-called “rather convincing rationale”), to gratuitous
>> ones that Nathalie was making the Board’s decisions for us and dictating
>> our communication (I am old enough to write my own emails, thank you very
>> much), to ever vague ones of “quite generous expenses reimbursement“. None
>> of this has been supported by proof or tangible facts, but the goal of
>> spreading distrust and dissent in the chapter and the wider community has
>> clearly been reached. Even now that Nathalie has left her position and the
>> Board has resigned, some are still defaming her in the French media in the
>> hopes of winning the stupid argument of who were the bad guys in the
>> crisis.
>>
>> I am also extremely disappointed that no one from this list asked us (the
>> Board) what was happening when these allegations were made, with only a
>> handful of people suggesting to wait before all the facts were known.
>> Instead, you took for granted the very short and extremely biased English
>> summaries of the Board’s communications (which were instantly circulated
> on
>> this list without our consent and in violation of our chapter’s bylaws),
>> and joined in the chorus of outrage, condemnation and verbal abuse.
>>
>> But worse to me than all this, I am actually terrified at how easily the
>> Wikimedia community can turn on a person, with no regard whatsoever for
>> decency or legality, when it has made up its mind about who has no place
>> there. I have personally experienced what it means to disagree with this
>> angry mob: questioning the dominant opinion or calling out individuals’
>> toxic behaviour makes you in turn acceptable collateral damage and a “fair
>> game” target for harassment.
>>
>> Speaking of this, the movement as a whole needs to address the issue of
>> staff-volunteers relations exemplified by the rapid turnover of executive
>> staff across chapters. Nathalie stayed at WMFR an almost record breaking 4
>> years, but at what cost? I’m being extremely serious in adding that this
>> conversation needs to take place before something irreversible happens as
> a
>> result of harmful group behaviour within the community.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Marie-Alice Mathis // AlienSpoon
>>
>>
>> PS: for your information about my position regarding the WMF’s role in
> this
>> crisis and their recent unilaterally added conditions [
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grant_expectations_for_
>> Wikimedia_France_-_2017-2018]
>> for payment of our FDC-attributed grant, I attach my email to Katy Love
>> from Sept 20.
>>
>> Katy, (Cc WMFr Board and Rémi)
>>
>> In the WMF "Grant expectations" document sent to the Board of WMFr, you
>> mention as a condition for APG funds payment that I do not resign from my
>> position on the Board until the governance review is complete, and that
> any
>> Board member planning to resign must report and justify it to WMF.
>>
>> You also mention that you retain the right to cease funding WMFr if you
>> consider that legal threats are being used inappropriately to stifle civil
>> and appropriate participation in the chapter. Moreover, you condition
>> payment to being informed if the chapter leadership feels that legal
> action
>> is appropriate to take against current or former board members or staff.
>>
>> Let me be clear: these conditions are outrageous and unacceptable.
>>
>> First of all, my legitimacy as a Board member of WMFr does not come from
>> any commitment to WMF but from being democratically elected by French
>> chapter members. WMF has no say in who stays or not on the Board, and
>> trying to intervene on such governance issues is, again, putting both
>> organisations at risk of being legally recognised as co-employers.
>>
>> Second, as a (volunteer) Board member I have been subjected to harassment,
>> sexist abuse, and unjustified allegations of misconduct by community
>> members, that have impacted my health and mental well being to the point
>> where I was no longer able to do my (paid) job in cancer patient care and
>> my GP put me on medical leave. A large volume of this abuse took place on
>> WMF property (fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Le_Bistro
> <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro>
>> <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro>
>> <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro> and the
>> WMF-hosted,
>> publicly archived mailing lists wikimedia-l and wikimediafr).
>> You personally and on behalf of WMF encouraged French community members to
>> challenge chapter leadership citing governance issues, without a word
>> mentioning the violence suffered by the Board and executive staff at the
>> hands of some French members during this crisis. Worse, you presented the
>> Board's email condemning the harassment as inaccurate and problematic,
>> which made the community feel all the more legitimate in their harmful
>> attacks.
>> When I reported the abuse in person to WMF employees during the site visit
>> you personally empathised with my distress at the time, and thanked me for
>> being honest about how your email to the wikimediafr list had made our
>> already precarious situation untenable. And then you did nothing.
>> My husband Rémi, who witnessed first hand the effects of the harassment on
>> my health, called on you to release the site visit report so the
> misconduct
>> allegations would stop. You didn't, until 3 days before our General
>> Assembly (where the allegations were repeated), on the same day you asked
>> that I stay on as a Board member. Even your choice of words in the "Grant
>> expectations" document is telling: "egregious incivility" is not what we
>> are talking about here. We are talking about unacceptable and illegal
>> defamation and harassment with serious real life consequences.
>> Rémi also called on the wikimedia-l list to stop the unfounded
> allegations,
>> and was attacked in turn because of "his conflict of interest as the
>> husband of a Board member". He also reported the abuse to the WMF
>> governance committee, to the Suport and Safety team and mentioned it to
>> Christophe Henner and Katherine Maher on Twitter, to no avail. To this day
>> we haven't received any support or acknowledgement whatsoever. All the
>> while the sexist abuse continues, and French editor MrButler was moderated
>> on the wikimediafr maling list for his continued personal attacks against
>> me. This is exactly the kind of behaviour the Board's email to the members
>> was calling out, yet you continue to deliberately ignore it and refuse to
>> do anything about it.
>>
>> Finally, your asking to be informed of any legal action against chapter
>> members or staff is yet another example of the WMF taking sides while
>> posing as a neutral arbitrator. Calling someone out on their toxic
>> behaviour or actually filing a complaint are no legal threats or
>> intimidation, but by claiming they are you are trying to silence victims
> by
>> denying them their basic rights to legal protection. At least two
>> complaints have been filed against community members and more may be
>> coming, including on my behalf. You will not be informed because it is not
>> for WMF to decide whether they are justified or frivolous.
>>
>> For all these reasons I am deeply shocked and hurt by your payment
>> conditions and will not abide by the terms of your grant expectations.
> With
>> most of WMFr funding hanging in the balance your unilaterally revised
>> conditions amount to blackmail but I will not stay in harm's way at the
>> request of the organisation who has failed me in every aspect when I came
>> in good faith to work for the community. I will resign when I see fit to
>> protect my health, and continue to speak honestly and publicly about your
>> actions and empty words of safety and inclusivity.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Marie-Alice Mathis, vice chair of WMFr
>> _______________________________________________
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body:
the process by asking questions and providing feedback on the Annual Plan
throughout its development. This insight continues to push us to improve
our planning, our programs, and the way that we share our work.  Based on
this feedback and our continued refinement of our plans, we have updated
the budget and several of the specific program plans that are linked in the
Appendix.

We look forward to the year ahead!
Katherine

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2018-2019/Final
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 10:42 PM, Katherine Maher <kmaher at wikimedia.org>
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm delighted to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation's Annual Plan for
> FY18-19 is now on Meta[1].
>
> This year, we have organized our efforts around three goals that focus on
> making critical improvements to our systems and structures to ensure that
> we’re better positioned for our coming work against the strategic
> direction[2]. The Foundation’s goals for this year should not only move us
> closer to knowledge equity and service, but will prepare us to execute
> against the 3- to 5-year strategic plan which we intend to develop this
> year in order to guide the Foundation’s work into the future.
>
> As you’ll see, we’ve made some changes to the structure of this year’s
> annual plan. This year’s plan is organized around three goals for the
> Foundation’s work in the year to come. By restructuring the Annual Plan, we
> have written a plan for the whole Foundation,  rather than an aggregation
> of plans from all of our departments and teams. In this sense, we’re
> seeking to become a better-integrated institution, rather than a collection
> of teams and departments with disparate goals.
>
> We’ve also reduced the overall length of the published Annual Plan. We
> wanted to make sure that the focus and goals of our work don’t get lost in
> the details. Of course, we know that many community members enjoy reading
> the particulars of our planned work, so you can still access the details of
> departmental programs through links to their descriptions on Meta or
> MediaWiki.org. These links will provide interested readers with detailed
> departmental programs, which describe the specific and detailed program
> goals, impact and outcomes. This change does not sacrifice the depth and
> rigor of our planning process, but rather, it is meant to keep the Annual
> Plan lean and focused while allowing interested readers to dive deep into
> the details.
>
> Finally, we’ve expanded the planning framework we instituted last year for
> cross-departmental programs to all of our programs across the Foundation.
> This allows us to clearly link a program’s resources to outcomes and
> measures. As such, we’ve presented the Annual Plan budget in terms of our
> investments in the three defined goals rather than in terms of our internal
> organizational structure.
>
> Thank you all for your support over the past year. I'm really looking
> forward to your feedback on this year's proposed plan during the open
> comment period -- a reminder it runs through May 15th.
>
> Thanks!
> Katherine
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_
> Plan/2018-2019/Draft
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017
>
> --
> Katherine Maher
>
> Executive Director
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> 1 Montgomery Street, Suite 1600
> San Francisco, CA 94104
>
> +1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 <(415)%20839-6885>
> +1 (415) 712 4873 <(415)%20712-4873>
> kmaher at wikimedia.org
> https://annual.wikimedia.org
>

--
Katherine Maher

Executive Director
Wikimedia Foundation

1 Montgomery Street, Suite 1600
San Francisco, CA 94104

+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635
+1 (415) 712 4873
kmaher at wikimedia.org
https://annual.wikimedia.org
_______________________________________________
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body:
example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_AntiVirus recently blocked my
entire shlomifish.org domain because it apparently misclassified an executable
download as problematic (and it was built from source using
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMake and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppVeyor
so it is unlikely that that is the case.). MS Windows' poor resistance to
malware and the fact that Windows Update is so dysfunctional (see
http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Windows-Update/ ) are the reasons
why I cannot recommend running it as a desktop, and instead one should use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux#Desktop - desktop linux or similar.

A little off topic perhaps, but needs to be said.

> My team will continue to investigate this incident, and report back if we
> notice any concerning changes. If you have any questions, please contact
> the Support and Safety team (susa{{@}}wikimedia.org).
>
> John Bennett
> Director of Security, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Password_strength_requirements
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:ChangePassword
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/projects/fortune-mod/

If a tree falls down in the middle of the forest, and there’s no one there to
hear it… what colour is the tree?
    — Monkey Island 2: LeChuck’s Revenge

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


body:
> On May 24, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Gnangarra <gnangarra at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I find this rather disturbing that Airtasker accepts adds for people
> wanting to have articles written, on wikipedia.
>
> The person writing the add is asking someone to violate WMF terms &
> Conditions as you can some of the respondents are indicating that they do
> this regularly
>
> https://www.airtasker.com/tasks/copywriter-for-a-wikipedia-article-10031171/
>
> Would it  be prudent for the WMF legal to contact Airtasker, highlight our
> T&Cs and have them block such requests from being posted.  Airtasker
> themselves also gets paid when people write Wikipedia articles
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
> Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.  Order
> here
> <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
> .
> _______________________________________________
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body:
All the best in your next chapter. Thank you so much for your work!

BradPatrick

bap at baplegal.com
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 6, 2019, at 5:21 PM, effe iets anders <effeietsanders at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have always enjoyed Erik's insightful input - especially the insights
> that people don't like to hear at first. I trust that much more of that is
> to come in the future, so I'm not ready to say farewells :). I wouldn't be
> able to accurately summarize it anyway.
>
> Erik, I hope that you'll find a lot of joy in the beautiful tree project
> that you're working on these days (folks, definitely check it out if you're
> interested in Leiden's horticulture). It is another beautiful example of
> how you manage to visualize the things that sound dull without you
> explaining them. Your presentations at Wikimania were for that reason
> usually the ones I most looked forward to.
>
> What maybe not everyone realizes, is that Erik is one of the people that
> the French Wikipedia would categorize as 'Grand Ancients
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Wikip%C3%A9dia:Grands_Anciens>',
> having been active since 2001. A unique understanding of the history of
> Wikipedia combined with dedication and understanding data has clearly
> resulted in good work. Thanks for summarizing this so elaborately, Dario :)
>
> Until soon,
>
> Lodewijk
>
>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 1:54 PM Pine W <wiki.pine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for your work, Erik. I hope that we will see you in the future.
>>
>> This is the first time that I can recall hearing about a person retiring
>> from WMF. Volunteer retirements and semi-retirements happen regularly, and
>> the reasons that I hear for those retirements are often sad. It's nice to
>> hear of someone who is retiring after years of success and is moving in a
>> positive direction.
>>
>> I think that you leave a good legacy in the Wikiverse, and as you might
>> guess from my username, I like what you chose for your next project.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Pine
>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Analytics mailing list
>> Analytics at lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/analytics
>>
> _______________________________________________
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body:
> On 21 Jun 2020, at 6:23 PM, Wikimedia Armenia Board <wikimediaboard.am at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> On behalf of Wikimedia Armenia, I congratulate all of us on the
> establishment of the Wikimedia Foundation. It carries out a very important
> mission in all corners of the world, ensuring such important activities
> that contribute to free knowledge, content creation, and dissemination. We
> are glad to be a part of the Wikimedia movement and to have our
> contribution to the promotion and development of the Wikimedia projects.
>
>
> “Wikimedia Armenia” NGO’s Chair of the Board
> Vahagn Piliposyan
> _______________________________________________
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body:
I will always remember when you came to Geneva and we made this small bicycle ride, and visited this LGBTIQ association together.

I have never never encountered in my whole wikimedia life a leader who did this this way.

It was the #KM way : Kind Magic.

Thank you, good luck  may the odds always be in your favor!

Nattes à chat

Envoyé de mon iPhone

> Le 16 avr. 2021 à 03:47, Katherine Maher <kmaher at wikimedia.org> a écrit :
>
>
> Hi friends, fellow Wikimedians,
>
> [Apologies in advance, this note is very long, and written in my native English speaker style. Normally I try for shorter and more ESL friendly, but it was hard to do this time. Thank you for indulging or at least, tolerating, me.]
>
> It has been my life’s joy and pleasure to be a part of this movement with you for the past seven years.[1] I came into the Wikimedia movement as a believer in open culture, open source, and free knowledge. I leave my work at the Foundation today knowing the Wikimedia movement stands for those things, and something even greater.
>
> To be a Wikimedian is to embrace humanity’s curiosity and fallibility, our generosity and irascibility. It is to look across a world that we’re told is divided -- by arbitrary borders, linguistic conquest, fear of the unfamiliar -- and instead see our common interest. It’s to know that we are each flawed, unreliable narrators, and to believe that the best remedy to our intrinsic failings is to patch our individual flaws with our collective strengths.
>
> In the spring of 2016, I shared a pizza in Berlin with (our then-future, now former, board chair) Christophe Henner. We were attending Wikimedia Conference one month into my role as interim executive director, and had just finished a challenging day of plenary meetings that brought us together as a community in catharsis. Christophe was a candidate for the Wikimedia Foundation board. He asked me, “What are we here for?”
>
> I didn’t know what he wanted me to say, so I just told him what I thought. “We’re here to make the world better.” It was a cliche answer, but true for me. He laughed and leaned back in the chair. “Yes.”
>
> This has always been what I read into the unstated part of our vision. “Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge.” This is a spectacular, inspiring, aspirational ambition, but it is also missing something critical. For the past seven years, I have imagined this world every day. And every day, I have asked myself, “Why?” Why does free knowledge vision matter? What happens then? What change have we effected in the world?”
>
> Even after I leave, I’ll keep asking myself this. And as you continue your work here, as colleagues, as contributors, as volunteers, I ask all of you to ask yourselves as well -- with all that you do, and all that you contribute, and all that you build. What are we here to do? Do our values, our structures, our practices, and our constructs serve our purpose? And how do we ensure they remain as alive and vital as our projects and vision?
>
> The former president of Wikimedia Chile, Marco Correa, would say, “The knowledge may be neutral, but the act is not.” I always understood him to mean that while our projects endeavor to serve the most accurate, verifiable, and neutral knowledge, our movement has never been impartial. We have always stood proudly for a set of values: freedom of inquiry, expression, and assembly, the right to privacy and memory, and the foundational value and dignity of every human. We have defended them under duress and must continue to do so.
>
> We should never lose sight of how revolutionary the act of producing free knowledge is in the first place. I’ve always been struck by the myriad motivations that bring people to this movement. There are those who write their language into the future, their identity into public consciousness, who use our projects to grapple with historical injustice. There are some who edit Wikipedia because an act of fact is itself an act of self-determination in places where information is used to suppress and subject.
>
> If we let ourselves believe that we’re simply a free encyclopedia, we risk losing sight of the power and possibility of our work. Knowledge has always been a tool of power -- great empire and wealth have been built with its service, and great injustice has been done in its name. The very idea of liberating knowledge from power, decoupling it from access and wealth, and placing its construction, utility, and value in the hands of every person on the planet is fundamentally radical.
>
> Wikimedia itself is a radical act. It is a verb, a constant action of interrogation, revision, and evolution. It upends history, it challenges the status quo. It is the confidence to ask ourselves why we believe what we believe and whether our knowledge may change in the future. It is the conviction to defend our values against pressure and threat, while robustly debating among ourselves whether those values continue to serve the world. It is the humility to cooperate, collaborate, and learn from others.
>
> Someone asked the other day, “what is the biggest challenge Wikimedia faces?” My answer was the same as on my very first day. Our biggest challenge is ourselves. Our success, our complexity, our size -- it could be easy to believe that we’ll endure forever on our current momentum, to see ourselves as a website rather than a global movement, or to accept that our knots are too knotty to ever properly unpick. It is often easier, and more comfortable, to swim in the eddies of incremental evolution rather than face the urgency of collective change.
>
> But we carry out our mission against great odds, and it is essential that we are clear-eyed about both the risks and the opportunities. There are the challenges of competition and scarcity: We operate in one of the most heavily capitalized and competitive sectors in the history of civilization (digital technology), we provide one of the most valuable (yet nonrivalrous!) assets of humanity (knowledge), we aspire to serve the entirety of the world equitably, despite all of the ways in which the world itself builds implicit and explicit barriers to that goal.
>
> There are also the opportunities, which are themselves a form of challenge. We see more people connected around the globe, more communities in search of knowledge, more languages represented, more need for trustworthy general knowledge, and sharper, more urgent questions of power, representation, and agency. We see an increase in appreciation for the value of knowledge in society, and for the importance of facilitating agreement on even the most contentious of issues. Whether we make the most of these moments will be up to us.
>
> If we are to meet these moments, we will have to find new strengths. We must be more clever, more bold, simply better than we have ever been. We must be uncompromising in our generosity, and adamant in our excellence. We must be more expansive, abundant, and inclusive. We should grapple with the ways in which we have failed in the past, including instrumentalizing participation and recapitulating exclusionary canons at the expense of truly global representation. We must cherish our integrity and independence, while also understanding our interdependence.
>
> In recent years, our movement has begun doing just this. We’ve been reconsidering our definition of “community” and “contributor”. We’ve been interrogating our understanding of what knowledge is, how it is constructed, and who is represented. We have been pushing for participation and enfranchisement of underrepresented geographies, languages, and demographics. We have been asking ourselves whether the paradigms of encyclopedic notability and verifiability can sustain our mission, growth, and relevance. We have been exploring what of our current work and practices might need to evolve in order for us to meaningfully live into our mission of every single human.
>
> We have been asking questions not only about our knowledge in Wikimedia’s ecosystem, but about the means by which we realize our mission. We have always been committed to open architecture and code, but those commitments have been passive -- common tools, common rules. What does it mean to be actively open? To go beyond protocol to practice, from standard to value? How do we ensure that our technical infrastructure and experiences enable participation, agency, and ownership by everyone, everywhere? How can our projects lead in privacy, security, and openness by the light of their example?
>
> In a very real way, this is all in our hands, and in the hands of anyone who might seek to participate. Our projects are not owned by anyone, but they are owned by all of us. They are edited, on average, 350 times per minute, representing the opportunity, every moment of the day, to be a work in progress -- to aspire to better versions of our movement, our projects, of ourselves. To change in response to the world around us. Wikimedia changes as we do, and change is what we make of it.
>
> This is a constant invitation -- and obligation -- to make and remake ourselves. Do the values that served us from our first day compel us to our future? Are the decisions that we make, as staff, as volunteers, as movement leaders, as community members, in service of our purpose? How do we adapt our work for the world we live in while maintaining our vision for the world we seek? What are we growing toward? What are we here for? What is the point, the purpose, of free knowledge?
>
> The answers to these questions may change, but the way we arrive at those answers should not. We are first and foremost a community, and we should arrive at our answers through open dialogue and consultation. We can’t bypass the difficult bits, we must go through them to build the lasting parts. And the only way we can do that is by committing, to consistency, communication, and continuation of difficult discussions such as those raised through movement strategy — questions of power, agency, decentralization, and autonomy. It is in seeking the answers to these questions that we will find the ways in which our movement will thrive.
>
> We must see one another as mutual stewards and allies, finding the means to disagree while valuing one another as people united in common purpose. We should practice compassion, courage, and kindness for one another and ourselves, and accept imperfection in the spirit of evolution. As staff, we must show our volunteer colleagues respect as full partners. As volunteers, we must return the sentiment to staff of the Foundation and affiliates. We should break bread together, solve problems together, and see one another as equals.
>
> To be a Wikimedian is to place your faith in the goodwill of people you’ve never met. It is to believe in the power of an idea to connect a community; to be an incorrigible humanist, wise to our failings but returning each day to do better. It is to believe in human generosity, curiosity, and general good sense. We not only seek to do the radical thing of making knowledge freely available, we trust the world to use it well. To contribute in good faith, to read us critically when needed, to donate to keep us going, and to criticize us when justified.
>
> We place our confidence in the world, and they place it back in us. We serve as stewards, anticipating that our work must support and sustain free knowledge as a public good for decades to come. We forge ahead against the implacable odds, and we somehow keep moving. We throw our lot in together, bind ourselves in our success and failure, and accept that our progress is a work in progress. We believe that we can change the world, because we already have. [2]
>
> I am grateful to you all for this time we have had, and the ways in which your passion, empathy, and determination have expanded my world. I have been fortunate to make lifelong friends with many of you, and believe there are still many friendships ahead. I am leaving the Foundation; I am not leaving the movement. I’m easy enough to find on the internet, but for all things Wikimedia you can find me on wiki at User:Maherkr or Telegram. I’m also at katherine.maher at gmail.com.
>
> We are so fortunate to live in Wikimedia’s glorious moveable feast. It’s taught me that there is rarely goodbye, just until we meet again.
>
> See you 'round the wikis!
>
> Katherine
>
> [1] Sure, there have been moments of exhaustion, exasperation, and heartbreak, but those aren’t for right now. And anyway, they’re entirely overshadowed by that bounteous joy.
>
> [2] And as of the end of today, this is officially just another Wikimedia essay! YMMV. Thanks for reading!
>
>
> --
>
>
> Katherine Maher (she/her)
> CEO
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> _______________________________________________
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body:
called winner. If there was just one alternative for each type of logo,
things would have gone really differently.

Let's keep the old logo, let's keep the candidates, and let's try again in
half a year in a better organized way.

Uli


body:
other visitor, potentially hijacking many more accounts, as well as performing
any action on the wiki: deleting, renaming, undeleting pages, etc. You could
also try triggering browser vulnerabilities to take over the computers of any
visitors using unpatched older browsers.)

Going over it with a fine-toothed comb looking for the bugs is tedious and
error-prone; there's lots of raw HTML output (very easy to make mistakes) and
the source and type of input data is hard to track. My inclination is to rip it
out and rewrite it as a clean extension with clearer data paths (I recommended
that Magnus write it as an extension when he started). It's probably not more
than a couple days' work, really, modulo other distractions.

> Article version rating/validation/moderation/whatever is my number one
> anticipated feature, and I've been responding to various peoples'
> criticisms of Wikipedia's "trustworthiness" with the suggestion that
> we'll be implementing something along these lines Real Soon Now for what
> feels like years.

Well, this feature won't do much of anything about trustworthiness. A review
team marking stable revisions, and proper visible disclaimers on unstable
development drafts, might.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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body:
matter the various copyright agreements. Perhaps you should pay more
attention to the various moral rights issues. See
http://portal.wikinerds.org/node/121

In our projects at http://www.wikinerds.org we fully respect authors' wishes.
We even want to help our authors to become more famous and put their names
and biographical notes in their articles. For example, see
http://www.nerdypc.org

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org


body:
"Even though the consensus is to go along with the German-based orthography
(which alienates speakers in the Netherlands), I strongly suggest that the
usual orthographic neglect not be perpetuated.  In ordinary spelling,
people do not distinguish the diphthong /ei/ (written <e(e)>) from the
monophthong /ee/ (written <e(e)>), and they do not distinguish the
dipthong /?i/ (written <??>) from the monophthong /??/ (written <?(?)>).
As a result of this overly casual spelling method, most learners -- which
includes most younger people -- mispronounce numerous words on the basis
of spelling.  Thus, continuing this spelling in a reference resource would
be tantamount to serious neglect and perpetuation of mispronunciation.  So
far, these distinctions are made only in better publications, in which the
monophthongs are written <?(?)> and <?> (or <oe>) respectively.  (In some
academic conventions they use <e(e)> and <?(?>) with an _ogonek_ (hook),
which, however, is typographically awkward.)"

And then later, this:

"They do reflect important distinction both phonemically and phonetically.

For example:

/leev-n/ ["le:v=m] ~ ["lE:v=m] <L?ven> 'life'
/leiv-n/ ["leIv=m] ~ ["laIv=m] <Leven> 'loving'
Spelling without distinction: Leven

/beed-n/ [be:d=n] ~ ["bE:d=n] <b?den> 'to beg', 'to pray'
/beid-n/ ["beId=n] ~ ["baId=n] <beden> 'to offer'
Spelling without distinction: beden

/veet-n/ ["ve:t=n] ~ ["vE:t=n] <W?ten> 'knowledge'
/veitn/ ["veIt=n] ~ ["vaIt=n] <Weten> 'wheat'
Spelling without distinction: Weten

/??v at r/ ["2:v3`] ~ ["9:v3`] <?ver> ~ <oever> 'over', 'across'
/?iv at r/ ["9Iv3`] ~ ["OIv3`] <?ver> '(river/lake) bank)
Spelling without distinction: ?ver, ?ver

/l??v-t/ [l2:ft] ~ [l9:ft] <l?vt> ~ <loevt>  'praises'
/l?iv-t/ [l9Ift] ~ [lOIft] <l??vt> 'believes'
Spelling without distinction: l??vt ~ l??ft"


body:
say it was "fake" before and is real now -- things that were awkward,
German-syntax-based ways of saying things were modified to more
natural, genuinely Platt/Nedersaksisch ways of saying things.

Mark

On 09/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
>
> > Ron has done quite a job on the article [[Katt]], in a huge effort to
> convert it from Patentplatt to real Platt.
>
> Hi Mark!
>
> Nice job. As far as I'm able to able to judge, the overall language quality of the article was clearly improved. But I think it's an exaggeration to say the article was written in a fake Platt before and is "real" now. Authenticity is often a matter of perspective. Most of the alterations made are not so much about real vs. phony but rather a matter of spelling, dialect differences or even a matter of taste. Some changes aren't really necessary e. g. replacing the very common "mooken" by a seldomly used "m?ken". One thing I really can't grasp is why Ron/Reinhard introduces the letter "?" (which is never used in Germany), e. g. when replacing the authentic Platt word "?kelnaam" by a weird-looking "?kelnaam" for no visible reason.
>
> Best,
> Boris
>
>
>
> Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 08.07.05 01:18:55:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Ron has done quite a job on the article [[Katt]], in a huge effort to
> convert it from Patentplatt to real Platt.
>
> Diff: http://nds.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Katt&diff=21797&oldid=18531
>
> Mark
>
> On 06/07/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Boris,
> >
> > I personally think that if in that sample the only extreme differences
> > are "mer" and the future tense, this should not be insurmountable.
> >
> > Brazilian and Iberian Portuguese similarly have some vast differences
> > in verb conjugations (although they use the same orthography...), yet
> > they have a single Wikipedia.
> >
> > I'm sure many Portuguese people are a little bit annoyed when they see
> > people using the second-person singular conjugations for both
> > second-person singular and second-person plural... but then, they're a
> > little bit used to it since Portuguese often visit Brazilian websites,
> > read Brazilian books, watch Brazilian movies... and vice-versa but to
> > a lesser degree.
> >
> > Nevertheless, the fact alone that you were able to identify it as the
> > future tense (as opposed to just completely not knowing) counts for
> > something.
> >
> > Surely, although it might be a bit annoying at first, such a
> > linguistic difference as use or non-use of the future tense is
> > surmountable.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 05/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Servien!
> > >
> > > Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattd??tsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:
> > >
> > > "Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> k?mmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "h?yl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "w?yrden" also omitted here> s?nnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>
> > >
> > > Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattd??tsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "?" or an "u" there?) for "k?mmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.
> > >
> > > Boris
> > >
> > > Servien Ilaino <servien at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:
> > >
> > > Hi Boris,
> > >
> > > The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne
> > > Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't
> > > seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I
> > > must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then
> > > the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are
> > > completely unknown to me...)
> > >
> > > Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system:
> > > As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny h?yl bruyn w?yrden
> > > mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
> > >
> > > And here in the traditional one:
> > > As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n
> > > mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
> > >
> > > This is the one I use:
> > > As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden
> > > mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and
> > > a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the
> > > word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because
> > > bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
> > >
> > > (Translation of the text:
> > > If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look,
> > > but will be pale white.)
> > >
> > > Servien
> > >
> > > 2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de>:
> > > >
> > > > > Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
> > > >
> > > > Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> > > > > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
> > > >
> > > > Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
> > > >
> > > > Coming from the "?nner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
> > > >
> > > > Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de ?nnerelv (in Hamborg un ?mto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in d?sse/s?kse F?llen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
> > > >
> > > > Hmm...
> > > >
> > > > Boris
> > > >
> > > > Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Boris,
> > > >
> > > > I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
> > > > people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
> > > > Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
> > > > wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
> > > > is "based on Missingsch".
> > > >
> > > > Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
> > > > actually ken the leid.
> > > > (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
> > > >
> > > > "It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
> > > > WikiPlatt team.  Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.  But
> > > > they don't know the language well enough.  Much or most of it is
> > > > "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
> > > > German.  I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
> > > > but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
> > > > the grammar and the authentic idiom."
> > > >
> > > > Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
> > > > would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
> > > > and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
> > > > only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
> > > > German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
> > > >
> > > > This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
> > > > difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
> > > > just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
> > > > welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
> > > > the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
> > > >
> > > > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> > > >
> > > > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
> > > > kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un
> > > > "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
> > > >
> > > > Hmm...
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Mark!
> > > > >
> > > > > I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattd??tsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Nordd??tsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However,  I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
> > > > >
> > > > > Boris
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
> > > > > ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
> > > > > nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
> > > > > personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
> > > > > nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
> > > > > rather a "contact variety".
> > > > >
> > > > > Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
> > > > > huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
> > > > > fact that it's written in Missingsch.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
> > > > > real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
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body:
* the term "Platduits" is well-known also on your side of the border
* The term "Nedersaksisch" is very recent in Dutch, it is only 15 years old.
2) It is not up to us or to you to invent ISO-Codes. The ISO code for our
language is nds. Please look it up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639.
It stands for "German, Low; Low German; Saxon, Low; Low Saxon". Now we have
the following options:
* either we share this ISO code somehow, or (if you do not like that)
* *YOU* sort it out with the ISO-committee and *YOU* get yourself a new one,
because we are legitimate users of this ISO code.

The best way to go in my opinion is to start nds-nl.wikipedia.org. If you do
not like us to continue as nds.wikipedia.org we can move it to
nds-de.wikipedia.org and make a common portal page on nds.wikipedia.org to
direct users to the new address. Besides: If you had been the first to go and
would have written an nds.wikipedia.org in Dutch spelling, I would have voted
to start an nds-de.wikipedia.org.

As I said quite some time ago: both variants of the language do not mix. And
it is not just the spelling. Modern Low Saxon lacks quite a number of words
for modern things and ideas and on our side of the border we have the
tendency to fill in the gaps with High German words (or with words that we
"plattify") and on your border you are doing the same thing. A perfect
example for this your proposed main page on
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker:Servien/Heufdbladsyde. Some examples
* chemistry:  Scheikunde: this happens to be exactly the Dutch word. In
Germany we say "Chemie" and I doubt that there is an original LS word.
*  medicine: Geneeskunde: this happens to be exactly the Dutch word. In
Germany we say "Medizin" and this happens to be the High-German word.
* religion:  "Religie": happens to be exactly the Dutch word. For latin-based
words on "-ion" we retain the ending "-ion" in our variants of Low Saxon,
which happens to be the way it is done in High-German.
*  Kleunruumte ("talk room"): Kleun can be a variant of our spelling "kl??n",
but ruumte sounds very much like Dutch "ruimte". On our side of the border we
have "ruum", which is very close to High-German "raum".
* suggestion: "suggesties": First of all we have a non-latin word for that:
V?rslag. And concerning latin imports on "-tion" we have the ending
"-tschoon" and you use "-tie", which happens to be exacly like the Dutch
system.

So my conclusion is very simple: you claim to do everything better, but your
own proposal is just a proof that your own Low Saxon has a heavy Dutch bias.
Or should I conclude from this that you too are not a native speaker? (In
fact this is the case as can be seen from
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebruiker:Servien)

The only way to go on from here is to accept that it is time for you to go
your way and for us to go our way. Then both nds wikipedias can flourish.
Otherwise we would just go on quarreling over words. Why is that so difficult
to see?

Besides you got your 5 signatures that you wanted to have. So why don't you
just start nds-nl.wikipedia.org.

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann

>
> Servien


body:
Achterhooks are all different enough from one another to warrant
separate Wikipedias.

Sample:

Stellingwarfs: Et doempien hadde zien nust in et waegenhokke. Op een
keer weren beide oolden uutvleugen. Ze hadden eten haelen wild veur de
jongen en hadden de jonkies hielendal allienig laoten.
Grunnegers: t Was ain van de schierste zummers sinds joaren. n Steltje
keudeldoemkes haren heur nust baauwd in de woagenschure stoef achter
de baanderdeure. Op n dag sluigen baaide ollen de vleugels uut. Ze
wollen veur de jongen wat te bikseln hoalen en luiten doarom de lutjen
hailendaal allind achter.
Dr?ents: 't Tuunkroepertien had zien nust ebouwd in 't achterhuus. Op
'n keer waren allebeide de oldeluui uut-evleugen um wat ?ten veur de
jonchies te halen ? en ze hadden heur hummelties glad allennig thuus
elaoten.
Tweants: Et duymke has sin noes in de skueppe. De olden warren der
maol ut evloegen, sey wollen wat te aetten krygen vuyr hoer jongen, en
hadden de kleinen alene achter elaoten.
Achterhooks: Et nettelk?nninksken had zien nust in de wagenloze. No
bunt de olders op ne kere allebeide oet evloggene ewest, ze wolden wat
te aeten veur aere jongen halen, en hebbet de kleinkes helemaole
allene achter elaotene.
English: There once was a wren who had made his nest in a garage. He
lived there with his family. One day he and his mate went out to look
for some food to bring their chicks, leaving the young birds all
alone.

In addition, each has a history of somewhat separate literature:
Asterix has separate translations in each language as does the Bible,
and there are websites about them and in them.

http://members.home.nl/goaitsen/twents/ (Tweants)
http://www.drentsetaol.nl/ (Dr?ents)
http://www.grunnegertoal.nl/ (Grunnegers)
http://www.stellingwarfs.nl/ (Stellingwarfs)

All of websites except the Tweants one are of organisations for
promoting the languages; the Tweants site is a page with information
on Tweants.

Mark

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body:
buzzword. The structure of China Can seems more like Nupedia in that
one has to apply to be a contributor.

For more, see: http://www.danwei.org/archives/001877.html

-User:Fuzheado

On 6/27/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/27/05, MilchFlasche?|?? <robertus0617 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Can you show us the link to this project?
>
> The project is at http://www.china-can.com/
>
> Angela.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>


body:
Europanto is a constructed language, a linguistic jest with a
hodge-podge vocabulary from many European languages. It was created in
1996 by Diego Marani, a translator for the European Council of
Ministers in Brussels. Marani created it in response to the perceived
dominance of the English language; it is an emulation of the effect
that non-native speakers struggling to learn a language typically add
words and phrases from their native language to express their meanings
clearly.
The single outstanding feature of Europanto is that there are no fixed
rules -- merely a set of suggestions. This means that anybody can
start to speak Europanto immediately, on the other hand it is the
speaker's responsibility to draw on an assumed common vocabulary and
grammar between himself and the audience, to make himself understood.
Effectively, Europanto as it is used, tends to have a grammar much
like English, with words borrowed from various languages and adapted
to be easily understood. It is sometimes considered a parody of the
international auxiliary language genre, particularly the "Euroclone"
variety, namely their preceived tendency to very strongly formalize
speech, and impose strict, but arbitrary rules on it.
The name Europanto is a portmanteau combination of European and the
Greek stem ????- (all), and resembles Esperanto.
Marani wrote regular newspaper columns about the language and
published a novel using it. As of 2005, he no longer actively promotes
it.
[edit]
Sample

Eine terrible menace incumbe over el Kingdom des Angleterra. Poor
Regina Elisabeth habe spent todo seine dinero in charmingantes hats
und pumpkinose carrosses und maintenow habe keine penny left por
acquire de Champagne dat necessite zum celebrate Prince Charles
anniversario op el 14 Novembro. (Diego Marani)
(Which translates as "A terrible menace has come over the Kingdom of
England. Poor Queen Elizabeth has spent all of her money in charming
hats and pumpkin carriages, and now is left without a penny to buy the
Champagne which is necessary to celebrate Prince Charles' birthday on
November 14th.")
[edit]


body:
have a united Neo-?tokavian Wikipedia, perhaps called the "Wikipedia
in Our Language" or something similarly uniting.

That means, I think, that everybody here has, ultimately, the same goals.

Whether or not sh.wiki would eventually be the breeding ground for a
Neo-?tokavian Wikipedia is uncertain.

But one thing which is certain about sh.wiki: it has already served to
unite people from different countries under the same goals. A large
group? No. But, a group nonetheless. I know that among the main
supporters of sh.wp, some are based out of Serbia and others out of
Croatia. I don't think there are any Bosnians nor Montenegrins (nor
Zlatiborians ;p) involved, though.

The main issue seems to be the current structure of sh.wiki.

If sh.wikipedians really dream that some day, all speakers of
Serbo-Croatian "languages" can be united with one Wikipedia, I think
it is up to them to take the first reconciliatory step, namely, form
community ties with the Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian Wikipedias.

Also, a power structure needs to be formed. Although it should be OK
to block a person who is unquestionably vandalising pages, anybody
else should be blocked, but later it needs to be discussed with the
other admins. A full agreement should be reached among admins before
making a final decision.

Also, for better oversight, I think sh.wp should try to recruit people
from other Wikipedias, or recruit non-Wikipedians to join sh.wp. With
a larger community, there is a bigger diversity, and eventually more
admins, which leads to better oversight of admin actions.

Really, sh.wiki is not in a position to be confrontational. In
English, there is a saying, "you get more flies with honey than with
vinegar", which means, you will get further by diplomacy and attempts
at reconciliation and genuine goodwill, than petty bickering.

Someone will probably say, "Oh, well, *we're* not arguing, it's them."
But this is never the case. For any argument, there are two people.

And it's obvious that many people here share the same ideals.

And let's get one thing straight -- NOBODY, again, NOBODY (save
perhaps Mav) wants to FORCEFULLY unite projects without democratic
agreement from all of them.

Mark

On 11/01/06, Milos Rancic <millosh at mutualaid.org> wrote:
> On 1/11/06, Dejan Cabrilo <dcabrilo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Milos, you first said that nobody tagged POV articles as such, and
> > that I should've. We concluded that I did. Now you are saying that I
> > didn't attempt to improve them, but did tag them. I did try to improve
> > some, but I was constantly reverted and even rolled back by some
> > admins (I can look into those). So, don't tell me I am not saying
> > truth again, please.
>
> Try it again with ONE article, first (please, use some which where you
> are more familiar) and if you would have some problems, they will be
> solved. But, please, don't behave aggressive.
>
> > It doesn't matter if our edition is called Serbo-Croatian, or
> > Neo-Shtokavian, or "our language". It's about not being country, or
> > ethno-centric, but information centric.
>
> Do you think that building one more community is a right way to make
> differences smaller? I don't think so. In this moment the right way
> is, as I see, to work inside of present communities. When sh: grows up
> to 10 people, we would have a lot more difficult situation because the
> space for possible merging would be filled with one more community.
>
> However, as I said, one of the important reasons why I am not for
> closing sh: in this way is a possibility of deactivating couple of
> active sh: Wikipedians.
>
> In other words, the only possible way for relocking of sh: is your
> (i.e. sh: Wikipedians) intention to do so; as well as your start to
> work in all of other three encyclopedias/communities on the long
> process of merging content. Is it possible?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin