subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Mediation for 172 and VeryVerily (was Re: Yes,
 it is a lynch mob)

body:
thanks for your detailed answer Michael. Yes, I understand.
But wonder what can really be expected as a constructive solution from
the AC :-(

Michael Snow wrote:
> In the spirit of toning down the debate, I've changed the subject
> heading again.
>
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> May I asked why no one is considering mediation ?
>
>
> Because it was suggested and considered several times, and the idea
> consistently met with skepticism and rejection or was simply ignored.
>
> When I started the third quickpoll for 172 and VeryVerily, my proposed
> remedy was a request for mediation. I would have requested arbitration
> instead, but concluded the case wasn't ready for arbitration at that
> point because other possibilities like mediation hadn't been tried yet.
> This quickpoll even had the 80% support required for implementing a
> quickpoll remedy, until members of the mediation committee showed up and
> objected to the idea of forcing people into mediation. (I'm not saying
> the mediators don't have a valid point there, just pointing out that the
> community already recognized the need for mediation in this case long ago.)
>
> When VeryVerily and 172 continued their dispute, I asked them directly
> to consider mediation. They responded with skepticism, so I tried to
> address their concerns about the mediation process, but I was never able
> to get either of them to say directly that they'd be willing to try
> mediation. Instead, they either put off considering mediation, ignored
> the idea, or dismissed it altogether. Meanwhile, the dispute went on
> unabated.
>
> So mediation has been considered here, but to no avail, because mostly
> it's been considered by people who don't matter. You and I can consider
> mediation all we want, but it won't do any good - VeryVerily and 172 are
> the ones who control whether mediation can be successful here. Since
> they couldn't manage to resolve their differences by themselves, I think
> the only option we have left is arbitration.
>
>> I think it was meant to help these types of cases ?
>
>
> It certainly could have helped, if anybody could have convinced
> VeryVerily and 172 to try it. They are still welcome to go into
> mediation, as the votes by the arbitrators on accepting this case have
> indicated.
>
>> Actually, I even think at least "discussing" mediation possibility was
>> a mandatory step in dispute resolution ?
>
>
> If you haven't checked [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution]] lately, you
> might not realize that the process is no longer described as a sequence
> of steps to be followed in a prescribed order. Mediation is not
> mandatory, and it is not a prerequisite to arbitration. However, because
> arbitration is a last resort, other means of dispute resolution should
> be tried first. Also, the arbitration policy specifically provides for
> referrals to and from the mediation committee. In this case, efforts
> were made to get 172 and VeryVerily to participate in mediation; these
> efforts simply never reached the point of actually making a request for
> involvement by the mediation committee.
>
> --Michael Snow


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Timwi

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Reworked css include/pref/tooltip/accesskey
	subsystem

body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:

> You should be able to do it yourself. I'm not a sysop, so i can't do
> it ;-)

The reason why I asked is that I didn't know the necessary JS code, but
you provided it, so thanks! :-)

Timwi


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/stylesheets wikibits.js,
	1.34, 1.35

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> I already provided a list of keys to avoid. Why don't you see what's
> left and make some recommendations from that that you'd like?

Gabriel and I were already struggling to assign access keys in a
sensible manner, and many of them already turned out unintuitive (e.g.
Special Pages = Q, because S and P were already assigned to the Save and
Preview buttons on Edit screens, or Random Page = X, because R was
already assigned to Recent Changes). Some were already required to be
special characters (e.g. My User Page = .).

Taking more letters of the alphabet away from us is only going to make
this even worse. We're going to inflict shortcuts like "-", "'", "/",
"=", "[", etc. upon everybody, just so that some people can have their
"select all".

Timwi


list: wikien-l

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: every disputed article to end up with multiple
	versions....

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

> The articles would be complementary, each prominently linked to the other at
> the top of the page.

Yes, and that's exactly the problem. The visitor would go, "Huh? Now
which one am I supposed to look at to find what I'm looking for? Do I
have to read through *both* of them to see if any of them has it? I'm
confused!"


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Multiple articles for irreconcilable POV's

body:
dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:

> We already have articles that state different points of view within
> the same article. In such a case, the reader is faced with "contradictory
> information" within a single article.

I don't see "Group X claims Foo, group Y claims the opposite" as
contradictory information.

Your solution with the redirects and the "master page" is too complex,
too difficult to administer for absolutely every controversial subject,
and highly confusing to readers. Everybody will be pointing fingers at
Wikipedia's low quality because of it. To unsuspecting visitors, it just
looks completely messed up.

> In other words, _for those few topics on which it is truly necessary_, isn't
> there an acceptable way to do this?

I don't think it's truly necessary.

> read the New Jersey point of view _here_."

Oh, and as an aside, please use more sensible link texts than "here". :)

Greetings,
Timwi


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: [[Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian
	conflict]]

body:
Viajero wrote:

> This evening, I chanced upon the following article:
>
>   [[Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict]]
>
> How is it possible, with all our well-formulated theories of NPOV and
> our vigilant editors, that such an horrendous text remains on the
> wikipedia? I have listed it on VfD (but it appears that it has been
> there before).

Do you know what NPOV means? It certainly doesn't mean we list pages on
VfD if we don't like them.

Instead, we edit them.

Timwi


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
Regardless of its "truth" it is a personal attack. Personal attacks are
against Wikipedia policy. They may be removed when they are found and can
form the basis of a dispute which should be resolved using the dispute
resolution process. The first step is to ask him to quit doing it.

Fred

> From: "Jack Lynch" <jacklynch at excite.com>
> Reply-To: jacklynch at excite.com, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:40:09 -0400 (EDT)
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK
>
>
> This user has taken to calling me "Troll", and dismissing me w such in talk
> pages.
> I find this to be an offensive presonal attack.
> When I request for him to discuss this with me or change the behaviour, he
> deletes my request.
> "removing troll" is the edit summary.
> What is to be done w this sort of harassment?
>
> Jack
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Klingon

body:
Imran Ghory wrote:

> However as I said before, if you or someone else can get Paramount to
> clarify the legal permission of the lanugage, then we'd be in a position
> to progress.

It should be pretty obvious that Paramount is not going "clarify"
anything, but rather exaggerate or skew everything to their favour
(lying isn't illegal).

Timwi


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: The wiki software is written for wikipedia

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> *There is one diliberate line to distinguish the meaning of the word in two
> languages; Engels & Frans. This line does not serve its purpose
> *Because of the heading the word itself Engels & Frans are underlined _and_
> they get a line from front to back.

These are styling issues. You can solve them by editing
[[MediaWiki:Monobook.css]]. Happy editing! :)

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
Horsefeathers, Grampa!

RickK has no special mandate. Please proceed using the established dispute
resolution process. Time enough to cry "Wolf" if it fails. Incidentally that
gives us a chance to improve the procedure.

There is a subtext. RickK would not be calling you a "troll" unless you were
doing something. Whatever that is might also be examined, first by you...
Then you might inquire of RickK as to what behavior he thinks justifies his
label.

Fred

From: "N.T. Riche" <vonriche at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 23:27:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: jacklynch at excite.com, English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] RickK

Nothing could be my brother in arms, becuase Rick will be defended by the
sysops. Wikipedia is a Dictatorship, you cannot question people like Rick
lest you'll be banned. However, I can help you nevertheless my brother,
please join the IRC channel (as a matter of fact if Rick is reading this I'd
like you also to join because I wish to discuss my POV with you)

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
Definitely a difficult area you have chosen. I should point out my personal
position which is that while theoretically a "white" nationalist
organization could exit which is not a neonazi organization, in practice,
they do not. Your posting, "Until now I've been relying on fair play. I
could of course bring this up at the Stormfront.org board and have dozens of
posters there come here and join this controversy.", implies your position
is congruent with that of Stormfront.org which appears to be a typical
neonazi organization. My personal position is that in the United States,
just as in Germany, such advocacy and organizations should be criminalized,
illegal, and dealt with in Wikipedia articles in such a way that the racist
and totalitarian aspects are emphasized. In other words, I'm not a civil
libertarian.

This however is not Wikipedia policy which welcomes all viewpoints and
provides that they be dealt with from a neutral point of view.

We recently banned a user with a neonazi orientation on the basis that he
had made personal attacks. (Which he did do, many of them, often out of
frustration as his viewpoint did not prevail). At that time we piously
stated that our action was not based on his point of view editing. (After
all, as we have recently discussed in the matter of 172 who edits from a
leftist point of view, point of view editing is not grounds for banning).

This statement which you made in a previous post is unarguable, "I DO expect
it to fairly present WNist beliefs as held by WNs themselves, rather than
present a anti-WN p.o.v." This presents a problem, however, as the premier
White Nationalist, Adolf Hitler, consistently misrepresented his position,
to put it bluntly, he was a lier on a mass scale. Any article written on
White Nationalist positions from a neutral point of view must in fairness
point out that history of outrageous lying. It is expressed today, for
example, in holocaust denial.

Although I have not examined every edit you made you appear to have
consientiously followed the requirements Wikipedia makes for courtesy and
while you may, as a new user, have broken the 3 revert rule, I could not
find any grounds for banning you, or even disciplining you. You made
controverial edits but attempted to discuss them on the talk pages and in
large part your assertions were unanswered there.

You appear to be of Slavic ancestry, judging from your name. Why on earth
would you support such a philosophy when Hitler's intent was to enslave (and
probably ultimately exterminate) all Slavs?

I am not going to unban you, your ban is almost up anyway, and perhaps you
did violate the 3 revert rule. However you seem to have been improperly
banned and ought not to be provided you continue to edit in a constructive
and courteous way. For you own protection you need to continue to attempt to
discuss controversial edits on the talk pages as you have been doing.

Fred, (of "mongrel" ancestory).

> From: Svyatoslav Igorevich <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 22:09:24 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban
>
> Please note that that's a lie, what I really wrote is
> ready for all to see on the "white nationalism"
> discussion page.
>
> It's also a lie that I reverted the article.  I edited
> in changes, my changes were reverted against
> guidelines, and I subsequently edited them back in.
> This may or may not be a technicality, but judging by
> what I read on reversions at Wikipedia, it isn't.
>
> This whole thing about the links is plain SILLY.  If
> you want a better balance of anti-WN links, add them
> yourself.  Deleting the links I've added doesn't
> accomplish your goal, unless your goal is to prevent
> links to WN or "WNish" sites.
>
>
> --- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Please note that this user has already threatened to
>> invite posters on a White nationalist website to
>> "visit" WIkipedia in order to make sure that the
>> [[White nationalism]] article matches their POV.
>> And his comment that he has not reverted an article
>> is untrue.  See the history of [[White
>> nationalism]].  He has also spam linked the White
>> nationalism article, but I've used up my three
>> reverts.
>>
>> RickK
>>
>> Svyatoslav Igorevich
>> <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I am writing to protest my being banned by Guanaco,
>> and to request that I be unbanned immediately. All
>> of
>> the charges he made against me ("linkspam, violating
>> 3
>> revert limit after warning, making threats to call
>> in
>> a puppet army from a message board to push his POV
>> further") are false, which should be made obvious to
>> anyone who reviews the "white nationalism" wikipedia
>> page and its discussion page.
>>
>> First, I didn't "linkspam." I posted 8 new links,
>> which brought the total to 9. The entry for
>> "Zionism"
>> has 21 external links, of which the vast majority
>> are
>> to Zionist sites.
>>
>> Second, I have not ever made a single revert to a
>> Wikipedia entry, as a review of the logs should show
>> -
>> I didn't even know what a revert was until a half
>> hour
>> or so ago. My entries HAVE been reverted multiple
>> times by other users, on the other hand, and I think
>> the reverts violate Wikipedia guidelines.
>>
>> Third, I did not threaten to call a "puppet army,"
>> that is patently absurd, which anyone reviewing the
>> discussion page can clearly see.
>>
>> This harrassment is ridiculous an uncalled-for. It's
>> perfectly clear that I'm being harrassed because of
>> my
>> beliefs.
>>
>> My IP is 172.173.127.231
>> My Wikipedia user id is Svigor.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
>> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Friends.  Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger>
> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Too Much on his Plate?

body:
This may partially result from 172 attempting to do too much, editing and
watching more articles than he has time to properly attend to. Proper
attending to an article including the time and willingness to take time to
discuss the article with others and accomodate others views in a graceful
way. This was definitely a part of what we ran into with Wik.

Thus dispute resolution tends to be shortcutted with reverts and treats of
reverts taking the place of discussion and research.

Fred

> From: Geoff Burling <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com>
> Reply-To: Geoff Burling <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com>, English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: Summary style (was Re: [WikiEN-l] Response to Bryan Derken)
>
> Treating the topic as a personal afront appears to be 172's strategy in
> every interaction. One is left with one of two reactions: bewildered shock
> that one has inadvertently caused offense, or suspicion that 172 is
> acting in bad faith. I have offered evidence in my previous email why I
> embrace the latter interpretation, but here's one more example:
>
> 172 complains that he doesn't have the time to make certain changes in the
> article under discussion, & that the article isn't important enough for him
> to make them. Mav offers to do the work, & 172's response is to find offense.
>
> I haven't written further about the matters of my earlier email to allow
> 172 time to respond to my accusations, but he has not seen fit to answer
> them, let alone acknowledge them. I assume that a lack of answer indicates
> his tacit consent to my charges.
>
> Geoff


from_name: Dan Miller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wiktionary?

body:
> I'm amazed at the poor quality of the English
> Wiktionary, it seems to
> miss so many important English words. Most new pages
> seem to be slang,
> jargon, and people adding a few dozen words from
> their native tongue.
> Plans to import a public domain dictionary were
> abandoned, and now there
> seems to be little organisation or direction.
> Perhaps Wiktionary can be
> revitalised with extra features, but I doubt
> stylesheet changes will be
> enough. It needs a different look and a whole raft
> of features. It needs
> methods for easily adding new words, and for
> categorisation and listing.
> But I'm neither excited by the project nor
> optimistic about its future.
> So most of all, it needs people who want to work on
> it.
>
> -- Tim Starling

I think the reason for this is that a dictionary
cannot really take advantage of the wiki structure.
Consider the dense interlinking that occurs in any
decent encyclopedia article; how would something like
that be useful, or even apply, in a dictionary? An
encyclopedia is, I think, ideally suited to the wiki
format--that's why all those predictions of "7 years
to 100,000 articles!" seem hopelessly naive.
Wikipedia took off because it's the best type of
structure to exploit its format, and that attracted
contributors.  In Wiktionary, you're basically just
asking people to write an online dictionary, and the
wiki concept is less useful to them.

Meelar

=====
"The difference between extra-marital sex and extra marital sex is not to be sneezed at."

--George Will, on hyphen use

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
He mentioned it as a point in argument. He did not threaten to invite them.
And in any event, according to established Wikipedia policy they and their
neonazi viewpoints are welcome. He may have technically broken the three
revert rule, but that is to be expected from a new user when they first
enounter determined opposition. His spam linking is not in itself a
violation.

Due to the frustrating nature of dealing with this type of point of view
editor, your frustration is understandable, but you can't properly ban
folks, even of disagreeable views, if they follow Wikipedia rules.

He tried, in a show of good faith, to discuss many of the controverted
points on the talk page of [[white nationalism]] but is not getting much
discussion on the points he raised.

Fred

From: Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:15:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

Please note that this user has already threatened to invite posters on a
White nationalist website to "visit" WIkipedia in order to make sure that
the [[White nationalism]] article matches their POV.  And his comment that
he has not reverted an article is untrue.  See the history of [[White
nationalism]].  He has also spam linked the White nationalism article, but
I've used up my three reverts.

RickK

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from_name: Matias Pelenur

subject: [Wikitech-l] Hints for mediawiki performance

body:
Hi all,
I've recently installed MediaWiki 1.3.0beta2 (off the CVS tip) on a
Linux box and, while it works really nicely -- lots of kudos to all tje
developers out there -- I want to make sure that my server is configured
for best performance; right now response time is not super fast,
although not terrible either.

I'm running the site on a "virtual-server" 2GB 2-proc machine running
Redhat 9. I have Apache 2.0.49, PHP 4.3.6, MySQL 4.0 stable.

I installed all these myself and am using pretty much whatever the
default configurations are. I wonder if in particular for MySQL (and
perhaps Apache) I may have a sub-optimal configuration.

So I'm basically looking for hints on what configuration values people
have used for MySQL (memory, buffer sizes, cache sizes, etc), PHP (mysql
persistent connections or not?), Apache (threading module type, memory,
caveats, etc etc) that have shown good improvements.

I did just see the post on Apache settings not making much of a
difference, but maybe MySQL settings might. I don't have that many pages
or users on this new wiki (SeattleWiki.org) yet, but I'm hoping that
will change soon, and I'm hoping to be ready for it :)

Incidentally I couldn't find a page with this info on meta.wikipedia but
maybe I didn't look hard enough. I can definitely add any useful replies
to a new "performance settings" page.

Thanks in advance,
Matias


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
> What is to be done w this sort of harassment?
>
> Jack

Mediation?

Charles


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Let's edit Augusto Pinochet again

body:
No one has accepted my offer to avoid editing the Augusto Pinochet
article, so I'm withdrawing it. I made some minor edits this morning:
nothing I think Cantus or 172 (Abe) would object to. Just added the same
links I put in the other 1973-coup-related articles (which no one
reverted or commented upon); broke the first paragraph into two parts;
and tweaked a link to [[List of Presidents of Chile]] so that it would
_not_ imply that Pinochet was "elected". Fair enough?

By the way, I am perfectly willing to be held to the same standards as
any other admin. So if there is an unwritten rule that we should not (1)
unprotect an article, (2) edit it & (3) leave it unprotected; then I
will be happy to follow this rule. But I think it should be written down
somewhere, so I don't forget it.

There are lots of rules, and sometimes they change faster than I can
keep up with. I appreciate any guidance others wish to give me, and in
case of doubt I'm always willing to stop editing any given article -- or
even to take some time off.

We're all in this together, and we need to help each other to make an
accurate and neutral encyclopedia. I try not to take offense when people
give me guidance, and I'm sorry if I've given offense when trying to
guide others.

Abe, will you accept my apology?

Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon

body:
Imran Ghory wrote:

>On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>
>>Your dependance on Paramount's position implies that they have a right
>>to grant such a permission.  If the material is not copyrightable, then
>>what Paramount says does not matter.  We can go ahead without their
>>permission.
>>
>>
>
>This is Paramount we're talking about, they have a long history of taking
>legal action against unauthorized books and websites related to startrek.
>So even if they don't have copyright, as long as they claim that they do
>we should not have a klingon wikipedia, unless we are prepared to fight
>them in court.
>
That's an alarmist position and copyright paranoia.  It's also
defeatist.  You want to collapse immediately even if they are wrong.
The first step that they would need to take is to issue a take-down
order, and they haven't done that.  After that, in the absence of proper
registration on their part (and what that means for an entire language
remains to be determined) their damages would be limited to a recovery
of any profits we may have made through a copyright violation. ( O:-) )

Since you seem to be arguing on behalf of Paramount, what legal
citations are you using to back your position.

This copyright issue is far more important than the status of the
Klingon language, so please stop using it as an excuse for blocking Klingon.

Ec


from_name: Fennec Foxen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wiki syntax for exponant

body:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:02:48 +0200, Ashar Voultoiz <thoane at altern.org> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I implemented a new wiki syntax for mediawiki.

Question: shouldn't this stuff go on Wikitech-l instead of Wikipedia-l?
(not 100% sure but it sounds like a more appropriate forum)


from_name: Andreas Kasenides

subject: [Wikitech-l] Greek wikipedia with monobook still (half) broken

body:
Can somebody please look into this?
This was adaquately described by Timwi on this list and I include the
final message from the discussion. I certainly tried to correct the
problem with
reediting and correcting the offending messages but alas!
This behaviour appears only in the new monobook interface, it works
correctly
if  the user switches to other styles.
Please help.

Thanx
ank

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> Timwi wrote:
>>
>>> On second inspection, it definitely does *not* look fine!
>>> http://meta.wikipedia.org/upload/3/38/Greek_problem_screenshot.png
>>> This seems to be a problem with the software. The messages in the
>>> MediaWiki namespace of [[el:]] are correct.
>>>
>>> Someone seriously needs to fix that, quickly.
>>
>>
>> Use the letter "i" instead of the number "1" in "π" and "φ".
>
>
> Brion, if you read my message, you will see that I said "The messages
> in the MediaWiki namespace of [[el:]] are correct." They are using
> neither "π" nor "&p1;", but the correct UTF-8 character for Greek Pi.
>
> Please fix this. (When Wikipedia is back up ...)
>
> Thanks,
> Timwi

--

Andreas Kasenides
e-mail: Andreas.Kasenides_at_cs.ucy.ac.cy
<mailto:Andreas.Kasenides%20at%20cs.ucy.ac.cy>
(replace the _at_ above with @)

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subject: Summary style (was Re: [WikiEN-l] Response to Bryan Derken)

body:
Geoff Burling wrote:

>On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>
>>Abe Sokolov wrote:
>>
>>
>>>maveric149 at yahoo.com:
>>>
>>>"The ability to write good summaries is a rarer trait than the ability
>>>to write at length on a subject. Let those who can summarize help
>>>improve the article series by making it useful to people who don't
>>>want to read for an hour."
>>>
>>>Are you saying that I can't. FYI, I've written dozens of brief
>>>articles on broad subjects too. I just don't list them on my user page
>>>because I don't want to give stalkers a guidebook.
>>>
>>>
>>I would prefer to take Mav's statement at the face value of a generality
>>without any implicit criticism of you or anybody else.  Personalizing
>>somebody's general comments is not very encouraging for interwikipedian
>>relations. O:-)
>>
>>
>Treating the topic as a personal afront appears to be 172's strategy in
>every interaction. One is left with one of two reactions: bewildered shock
>that one has inadvertently caused offense, or suspicion that 172 is
>acting in bad faith. I have offered evidence in my previous email why I
>embrace the latter interpretation, but here's one more example:
>
>172 complains that he doesn't have the time to make certain changes in the
>article under discussion, & that the article isn't important enough for him
>to make them. Mav offers to do the work, & 172's response is to find offense.
>
>I haven't written further about the matters of my earlier email to allow
>172 time to respond to my accusations, but he has not seen fit to answer
>them, let alone acknowledge them. I assume that a lack of answer indicates
>his tacit consent to my charges.
>
>
The problem here is in assuming bad faith.  Personal affront strikes me
as an expected by-product of a siege mentality when faced with attacks
from a broad range of sources.  No-one can keep up with detailed
responses to the volume of material that has emerged on 172's behaviour
in respect of a wide range of historical articles.  Attempting to answer
everything only increases the probability of further offence in both
directions.  A kind of positive feedback loop.  When the auditorium
speakers start screeching the worst thing you can do is keep talking
into the microphone.
Ec


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> It's not necessary to assign a key to every conceivable function!
> Overriding browser functionality, however, is never ever acceptable.
> I'm sorry if this seems awkward to you, but I assure you it's a lot
> more awkward to have the computer to unexpected things in response to
> standard keystrokes.
>
> No conflicting access keys will be kept.

That's certainly a rational approach to the matter. If people want these
strange key-combinations they should make the settings themselves on
their own browsers without affecting the way that other browsers function.

I seldom use these, but when I choose to do so I expect them to work in
exactly the way my browser tells me, rather than having them reflect
some nerd's idiosyncrasies.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
N.T. Riche wrote:

>Jack Lynch <jacklynch at excite.com> wrote:
>
>This user has taken to calling me "Troll", and dismissing me w such in talk pages.
>
>This is very typical of Rick, He can be like this. Personally I feel Rick's behavior as sysop is terrible, and he should be de-sysoped. Now I have tried to reason with Rick, but he has called me a troll and the like.
>
When I see Rick's signature on a mailing list post I am already
predisposed to give it minimum credibility.

>Nothing could be my brother in arms, becuase Rick will be defended by the sysops. Wikipedia is a Dictatorship, you cannot question people like Rick lest you'll be banned. However, I can help you nevertheless my brother, please join the IRC channel (as a matter of fact if Rick is reading this I'd like you also to join because I wish to discuss my POV with you).
>
Wikipedia has far too many sysops.  Too many are prone to use that
status as a means for enforcing a POV, and acting theron like
self-appointed policemen.  There are enough now to be able to work
together to succeed in their efforts.  If a person is going to be a
sysop, he needs to be held to a higher standard of behaviour than an
average user.  I would support any move to reduce the number of sysops.

Ec


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Greek wikipedia with monobook still (half) broken

body:
Timwi wrote:
> Oh, OK, I forgot about that ... but doesn't that only affect &, < and >,
> and at most possibly also " and '? I don't see why Greek letters would
> need to be entity-ised.

PHP has two separate functions for escaping things to html:
* htmlspecialchars() just does &, <, >, and quotes
* htmlentities() does everything it possibly can

htmlentities() might be useful if you're not sure what the charset
encoding of the final output will be. However, since we *do* know we
don't need that level of conversion. That's why I switched the instance
of it in the PHPTal template code to use htmlspecialchars(), which
doesn't touch the greek letters and so doesn't trigger the bug in
htmlentities().

This isn't code we wrote ourselves, so don't ask us why they used that
function. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: Reply to Tim Starling

body:
Timwi wrote:
> The "special-case work" he was referring
> to was the conversion of the respective Wiktionaries to UTF-8 (sorry if
> this is too technical, since we're not on the tech list here). This
> cannot be done by regular contributors and must be done externally.
> Because of that, I'm finding it extremely disappointing that nobody has
> done it yet and expects a Dutch contributor to do it. Tim, or Brion, or
> whoever, please could you convert all Wiktionaries to UTF-8? The sooner
> you do it, the less there will be to convert.

On the train this morning I started work on changing the remaining
language files so we can use UTF-8 on all languages while retaining
Latin-1 compatibility on the large Wikipedias until we finish converting
them.

I'll try to finish it up this evening after work and see if we can get
the wiktionaries back to their natural Unicode state.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: David Friedland

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikipedia logo Nohat

body:
Anthere wrote:
> Found the mail
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikifr-l/2004-June/001702.html
>
>
> At the bottom, there is a link to a jpeg low resolution image of an ad
> which will be run in a linux journal.
>
> The picture mentions that the logo is copyrighted, is that correct ?
>
> Do we need Nohat permission for this ?

Since I uploaded the logo to the meta Wiki, it is released under GFDL.
The major questions that have arisen are if I wish to additionally give
up rights retained by the GFDL to facilitate use of the logo in
particular ways that don't require derived works of the logo to be
released under GFDL (such as putting the logo into a larger image or
changing the colors or whatever).

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo explains what the current state of
the permissions are. I haven't yet agreed with what is written there,
but you can use the logo for the time being under the terms described there.

- David


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New Language

body:
Kenneth J. Sanderson wrote:
> Could you add The Cornish Language to your encyclopaedia. The Cornish
> language's name for Cornish is KERNEWEK so the xx could be *ke*, *kr* or
> *kn.*

The ISO 639-1 language code for Cornish is kw. (kr is Kanuri, kn is
Kannada, ke seems to be unassigned.) When it's created it'll be at
http://kw.wikipedia.org/

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

body:
Tim Starling wrote:
<snip>
> Gerard.Meijssen wrote:
>  > We have just had a major disaster. What I expected in the aftermath
>  > was some consolidation. However, now the "Enhanced recent changes
>  > (not for all browsers)" in preferences is up the creek!!
>
> What's wrong with it? It looks fine to me.

Hello,

I did broke it in cvs with my huge " -> ' translation. Given I had a
teeth trouble yesterday night, I haven't been able to fix it the minute
it has been reported. But it eventually get fixed an hour (the time for
me to fix it and for someone to update the production websites).

Gerard, thanks for your reporting of this bug and my apologizes for the
trouble it caused.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: The wiki software is written for wikipedia


from_name: Guillaume Blanchard

subject: [Wikitech-l] small template & furigana

body:
From: "Luc Van Oostenryck"
> Makoto & Guillaume wrote:
> > // this mail use UTF-8 format //
> >
> > Hi all.
> > Can you please remove the "5 same template per page" limit for small
> > templates?
> > Tim Starling spoke about other method to limit risk of DOS attack (based
on
> > template size), but waiting to those implementations can you deactivate
the
> > limit (or set it to 100) for tiny template (ex: less than 1kb, 256
bytes, or
> > 100 bytes).
> >
> > For example, on French WP, we use a lot of {{e}} to emulate
> > e (it's same as the English "th" for
centuries,
> > etc.).
> >
>
> Why not use {{susbt:e}} ? OK it's a bit longer to write.
>
> -- Looxix

It is longer than {{e}} **and** it put a lot of HTML code into the article
that make it difficult to read for next people who want edit it. It's not
just a feature to help writing, but also to make articles more clean.

Aoineko


from_name: Mark Richards

subject:
Flat earth (was Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Multiple articles for
	irreconcilable POV's)

body:
Well, a link to the article on flat-earthers might be
appropriate ;)

--- Fennec Foxen <fennec at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:29:49 -0700 (PDT), Mark
> Richards
> <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > It doesn't matter whether the points of view are
> > reconcilable or not, we just have to report that
> there
> > are two points of view:
> > "Most people believe the world is roughly
> spherical,
> > while loony number 17 believes it is flat."
> > Problem solved.
> > Mark
> Yes, after we delete the bit about loony number 17
> for being
> irrelevant, unencyclopedic, and unverifiable. :)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________
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subject: Specific cases? (was Re: [WikiEN-l] RickK)

body:
Can you point to specific cases that you are
complaining about?
Mark

--- Jack Lynch <jacklynch at excite.com> wrote:
>
> This user has taken to calling me "Troll", and
> dismissing me w such in talk pages.
> I find this to be an offensive presonal attack.
> When I request for him to discuss this with me or
> change the behaviour, he deletes my request.
> "removing troll" is the edit summary.
> What is to be done w this sort of harassment?
>
> Jack
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Innapropriate bans

body:
It appears that Heaphaestos has blacked these two
users because they are 're-incarnations of banned
users'.
The current policy of "ask politely, show evidence,
consider, block" does not appear to have been followed
in this case. Please let me know if I am mistaken and
you have, in fact, asked both these users, gathered
convincing evidence, displayed it somewhere and given
time for the community to consider it.
Thank you,
Mark

03:40, 10 Jun 2004, Hephaestos blocked Leo Trollstoy
(expires 03:40, 10 Jul 2004) (contribs) (Reincarnation
of previously banned user. 30 days should give
Arbitration Committee time to approve or deny.)

03:40, 10 Jun 2004, Hephaestos blocked JRR Trollkien
(expires 03:40, 10 Jul 2004) (contribs) (Reincarnation
of previously banned user. 30 days should give
Arbitration Committee time to approve or deny.)

__________________________________
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Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Reply to Tim Starling

body:
LS,
I understand from Brian and from Timwi (who placed the monobook.js and monobook.css on nl:wiktionary) that this is where these things must be fixed. I am happy, this does indicate which way to go.

Brian mentioned that he is going to revisit the ?template inclusion?. I hope that he will fix the inclusion of headers from within templates; the problem is that no TOC is generated from headers entered from within templates. This would help me a lot in making the standardised presentation (as I envision it) acceptable.

In his mail Brian mentions: ?English and German are exceptions to this rule because of special-case work done by the respective contributors.? I have several words ready for inclusion in the nl:wiktionary. I cannot create them for the current restrictions. The idea of wiktionary is that it not only provides the local language words but also the words in other languages. Therefore it is part and parcel of what wiktionary stands for.

The "Enhanced recent changes (not for all browsers)" works again as specified. Thanks!

Brian is right where he says that he does not want to publish everywhere what he is doing. Consequently I am not subscribed to wikitech-l. He mentions that I cannot expect a minimum level of service. This is true up to a point. When a massive exercise like the ?1.3 upgrade? is undertaken, there should be a proper conversion with all the necessary steps taken. This does mean that the sysops as a group undertake this. All steps should be taken for all environments. Doing it this way ensures that you provide a quality upgrade and, it prevents all kinds of nastiness down the line. It is in the interest of the sysops to ensure a standardized environment!!

Practically: the {{msg:-nl-}} should be converted to {{-nl-}} there is a script to do it. I cannot run it. It should be part of finishing up the upgrade.

Brian does not think much of en:wiktionary. He thinks that it needs many new features. In the nl:wiktionary, I am adding words for languages with a ISO 639 identification. I have a standardized way to indicate the translations (using ISO 639 to indicate the language) this should enable the quick translation from words from one wiktionary to other wikionaries that support the messages that are used.

I also have a 8878 word glossary (public domain) with mainly English botanical terms with a Dutch explanation. Those are the things I work on.

Concluding; Wikimedia is a success because of all the people that work on it. We all play our part and we do what we can, what we want. However, the aim is to produce something that stands up to scrutiny. It is a long hard road and traveling it together makes it enjoyable.

Thanks,
  Gerard
o {{-nl-}} there is a script to do it. I cannot run it. It should be part of finishing up the upgrade.

Brian doe


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Reply to Tim Starling


from_name: Kenneth J. Sanderson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New Language

body:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Could you add The Cornish Language to your encyclopaedia. The Cornish language's name for Cornish is KERNEWEK so the xx could be ke, kr or kn.
Yours faithfully,
K. J. Sanderson

---------------------------------
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body:
Tim Starling wrote:

> Gerard.Meijssen wrote:
>
>  > Take a look at the restriction on the number of messages (5) per
>  > page. This is "reasonable" in wikipedia, but when you want to
>  > internationalise a page and use messages to indicate things that
>  > differ from language to language, like the gender of a word, you can
>  > have dozens words that are masculine and you get garbage as a result.
>
> I've received a number of complaints about this from Wikipedians, and
> this is the first one I've had from someone from Wiktionary, so I fail
> to see how this indicates Wikipedia-centrism. It's a problem I intend to
> address during my reworking of template inclusion, over the next week or
> two.

My understanding must have missed something here.  I've never
encountered such a problem.  Maybe I've just been around for too long. :-)

>  > When there are problems, they seem to be relatively quickly fixed for
>  > the wikipedia's but, for the wiktionaries the consistency  is
>  > lacking.

While biting my tongue over the capitalization issue,  I don't want to
be too critical of the developers about this.  They're doing what they
can, and they need to priorize their limited times.  We need more
technically competent people to deal with software issues, but they also
need to be able to keep some distance between themselves and the
frequent bickering that takes place.  Tim and Brion have handled that well.

>  > When you have an environment like wiktionary/wikipedia they _need_ to
>  > be the same in order to be able to fix things and understand the
>  > behaviour of the software. The wiktionaries do not behave in a same
>  > way. You can create an article with a Chinese (characters) name in
>  > English but not on the nl:wiktionary (and others).
>
> Wiktionaries were set up by copying the MediaWiki namespace and language
> files from the associated Wikipedias. You can't create an article with
> chinese characters in the title on the nl wikipedia either. English and
> German are exceptions to this rule because of special-case work done by
> the respective contributors.

That's unfortunate about the Chinese titles; I guess that I have been
under the mistaken impression that Unicode implied that CJK would be be
broadly available.  Maybe I've been spoiled by having this feature
available in English.

I don't think that it's a necessity that everything on a Wikipedia and
its corresponding Wiktionary needs to function exactly the same way.
The capitalization issue is a good example.  Current policy has worked
well in Wikipedia, with only a limited number of difficulties.  For
Wiktionary this has created awkward difficulties.

> Please understand that I'm not obliged to fix problems just because you
> want them fixed. You are not paying me. I try to make people happy, but
> you have no right to expect a minimum level of service.

Agreed.  What positive contribution has our critic offered?

> I'm amazed at the poor quality of the English Wiktionary, it seems to
> miss so many important English words. Most new pages seem to be slang,
> jargon, and people adding a few dozen words from their native tongue.
> Plans to import a public domain dictionary were abandoned, and now there
> seems to be little organisation or direction. Perhaps Wiktionary can be
> revitalised with extra features, but I doubt stylesheet changes will be
> enough. It needs a different look and a whole raft of features. It needs
> methods for easily adding new words, and for categorisation and listing.
> But I'm neither excited by the project nor optimistic about its future.
> So most of all, it needs people who want to work on it.

I want to take this personally in the most positive sense.  I
essentially agree, and need to accept my share of the responsibility.
One of our earliest debates was over whether we should be a primarily
English dictionary or a translating dictionary.  A lot more people seem
concerned with translations, and are satisfied with translations that
show significant na?vet? toward concepts of translation.  Slang and
jargon need to be addressed, but should not become dominant.  The
project to import a public domain dictionary has not been abandoned,
only ignored.

I too really would like to see more organization and direction.  That
may require people to accept certain tasks and carry them through to
completion.  I accept that my inability to herd cats as one of my own flaws.

New features, stylesheets, looks, etc. are not what will save
Wiktionary.  They are not a substitute for hard disciplined work.  I
don't see any difficulty in adding new words.  New ones are being added
regularly, even if they are foreign or jargon.  Categorization and
listing is a problem, and we did discuss the matter of pseudonamespaces
some months ago. Of course, I've also been around long enough to know
that without practical support from other Wiktionarians I would have
been alone in this enterprise, and Wiktionary would not have been helped
by a further fragmentary effort.

Most of all I agree that we need people wo want to work, not just
dilettantes.  At this stage content is still more important than
obsessing about format.  I still believe that the concept is sound, and
that it has a tremendous capacity for becoming a unique resource.  It is
unfortunate that all the projects have frequent visitors with fantastic
visionary ideas, but little appreciation for the work needed to bring
these ideas into reality.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Server down message

body:
Ulrich Fuchs wrote:
>>Why can't we simply have a Wiki-editable server down message that will
>>be used automatically?

By definition we can't since when the wiki is down it can't access the wiki.

 >> In particular, it should be a different one on
>>each different language Wikipedia. :-p

That we've already got. (Devs: please use outage.php and declareOutage()
rather than hard-coding $wgSiteNotice.)

> Yes. PLEASE. And PLEASE: Would the developers please announce on THIS LIST:

It took me a while to get this information out of people but here we go:

> * When the Wiki will go down

18:00 UTC tomorrow (June 11).

> * Why the Wiki will go down

To reboot Zwinger with an updated kernel which will fix the disk driver.
This should improve performance; as the main file (not database) server
the sluggish disk is a bottleneck.

> * And how long the outage will be.

Estimated at a half hour.

> That isn't so difficult, is it?
>
> Please give us at least 15 Minutes to change the mentioned server down message
> accordingly, so that people can save their work.

In theory, we've committed to always giving 24 hours notice prior to any
planned maintenance downtime.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Server down message

body:
Ulrich Fuchs wrote:
>>Why can't we simply have a Wiki-editable server down message that will
>>be used automatically?

By definition we can't since when the wiki is down it can't access the wiki.

 >> In particular, it should be a different one on
>>each different language Wikipedia. :-p

That we've already got. (Devs: please use outage.php and declareOutage()
rather than hard-coding $wgSiteNotice.)

> Yes. PLEASE. And PLEASE: Would the developers please announce on THIS LIST:

It took me a while to get this information out of people but here we go:

> * When the Wiki will go down

18:00 UTC tomorrow (June 11).

> * Why the Wiki will go down

To reboot Zwinger with an updated kernel which will fix the disk driver.
This should improve performance; as the main file (not database) server
the sluggish disk is a bottleneck.

> * And how long the outage will be.

Estimated at a half hour.

> That isn't so difficult, is it?
>
> Please give us at least 15 Minutes to change the mentioned server down message
> accordingly, so that people can save their work.

In theory, we've committed to always giving 24 hours notice prior to any
planned maintenance downtime.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Server down message

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Ulrich Fuchs wrote:
>> In particular, it should be a different one on
>> each different language Wikipedia. :-p
>
> That we've already got. (Devs: please use outage.php and declareOutage()
> rather than hard-coding $wgSiteNotice.)

Please make suggestions for additionsto the master list at:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_outage_message

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Ulrich Fuchs wrote:
>> In particular, it should be a different one on
>> each different language Wikipedia. :-p
>
> That we've already got. (Devs: please use outage.php and declareOutage()
> rather than hard-coding $wgSiteNotice.)

Please make suggestions for additionsto the master list at:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_outage_message

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Thank you thank you for a quick fix. It looks Greek now.

Andreas

Andreas Kasenides wrote:

> Can somebody please look into this?
> This was adaquately described by Timwi on this list and I include the
> final message from the discussion. I certainly tried to correct the
> problem with
> reediting and correcting the offending messages but alas!
> This behaviour appears only in the new monobook interface, it works
> correctly
> if  the user switches to other styles.
> Please help.
>
> Thanx
> ank
>
>> Brion Vibber wrote:
>>
>>> Timwi wrote:
>>>
>>>> On second inspection, it definitely does *not* look fine!
>>>> http://meta.wikipedia.org/upload/3/38/Greek_problem_screenshot.png
>>>> This seems to be a problem with the software. The messages in the
>>>> MediaWiki namespace of [[el:]] are correct.
>>>>
>>>> Someone seriously needs to fix that, quickly.
>>>
>>>
>>> Use the letter "i" instead of the number "1" in "π" and "φ".
>>
>>
>> Brion, if you read my message, you will see that I said "The messages
>> in the MediaWiki namespace of [[el:]] are correct." They are using
>> neither "π" nor "&p1;", but the correct UTF-8 character for Greek Pi.
>>
>> Please fix this. (When Wikipedia is back up ...)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Timwi
>
>
> --
>
> Andreas Kasenides
> e-mail: Andreas.Kasenides_at_cs.ucy.ac.cy
> <mailto:Andreas.Kasenides%20at%20cs.ucy.ac.cy>
> (replace the _at_ above with @)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--

Andreas Kasenides
e-mail: Andreas.Kasenides_at_cs.ucy.ac.cy
<mailto:Andreas.Kasenides%20at%20cs.ucy.ac.cy>
(replace the _at_ above with @)

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from_name: Svyatoslav Igorevich

subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
Mr. Bauer,

I find extensive parts of your post extremely
problematic.

"Definitely a difficult area you have chosen. I should
point out my personal position which is that while
theoretically a "white" nationalist organization could
exit which is not a neonazi organization, in practice,
they do not."

This kind of ignorance is precisely why I am so
adamant about balancing the Wikipedia entry.  The most
basic level of white nationalism is advocacy of white
civil rights, i.e., a repeal of all racist laws which
enfranchise non-whites at the expense of whites:
affirmative action laws, the 1965 civil rights act
which abrogates freedom of association, federal hiring
quotas for minorities, etc.  This is neonazism?
Creating a National Association for the Advancement of
White People would be neonazism?  Advocating the idea
that white people should advance their interests as a
bloc, as Asians, blacks, Hispanics and Jews do is
neonazism?

Please review the writing at www.Amren.com and get
back to me with the examples of neonazism you find
there.

"Your posting, 'Until now I've been relying on fair
play. I could of course bring this up at the
Stormfront.org board and have dozens of posters there
come here and join this controversy.', implies your
positionis congruent with that of Stormfront.org which
appears to be a typical neonazi organization."

Eh?  Stormfront.org is an international white pride
Website, not a neonazi organization.  It's simply a
Web board dedicated to discussion of anything and
everything of interest to ethnocentric white people.
Again you show that you just don't know what you're
talking about.

There is no single position or position-set to BE
congruent with at Stormfront.org, as is the case with
every forum known to man.

"My personal position is that in the United States,
just as in Germany, such advocacy and organizations
should be criminalized, illegal, and dealt with in
Wikipedia articles in such a way that the racist
and totalitarian aspects are emphasized. In other
words, I'm not a civil libertarian."

That much is obvious, Mr. Bauer.  What you suggests
sounds far more totalitarian than libertarian.  My gut
instinct tells me that you are German, but that's just
a stab in the dark.  I've encountered much the same
"totalitarian democratic" leanings in Germans before.

This sort of belief is distinctly un-American, and
frankly will never be legal here, without a further
shredding of our Constitution.  We don't outlaw ideas
here, Mr. Bauer, in fact we consider such proposals
morally repugnant.

"This however is not Wikipedia policy which welcomes
all viewpoints andprovides that they be dealt with
from a neutral point of view."

Wikipedia policy also requires a "sympathetic"
treatment of subjects, in addition to a "neutral" one.

"This statement which you made in a previous post is
unarguable, "I DO expect it to fairly present WNist
beliefs as held by WNs themselves, rather than
present a anti-WN p.o.v." This presents a problem,
however, as the premier White Nationalist, Adolf
Hitler, consistently misrepresented his position, to
put it bluntly, he was a lier on a mass scale."

Adolf Hitler presents a single historical example of a
single position holdable within white nationalism, but
he is anything but "the premier white nationalist."

This kind of ridiculous thinking really baffles me.
It's like saying "Nixon, the premier Republican,
consistently lied to the American people, therefore
any sympathetic presentation of Republican party
ideology must consist of a pack of lies."

I'm wondering if this line of argument even meets the
threshold of requiring refutation.

"Any article written on White Nationalist positions
from a neutral point of view must in fairness point
out that history of outrageous lying."

I take that as a challenge.  I can see now that this
is going to be a full-fledged battle.  I propose that
this email list is insufficient to the task.  I for
one am much more comfortable with a Web forum.
Unfortunately, I find neutral ground almost
non-existent.  Perhaps you or another poster could
recommend a suitable venue?  If you don't know of such
a place, I have a free speech forum in mind whose
admins might be amenable.

I would be glad to accept your implied challenge and
prove you wrong, but I have to warn you this involves
a protracted discussion, since white nationalism
involves a wide range of subject matter.  We can keep
this between ourselves or broaden it to whoever seeks
involvement, I'll leave that up to you.

edit: after reviewing the paragraph I quoted above
again, I realized that you were simply conflating the
"lies" of Hitler with the ideology of white
nationalism.  In that regard, my challenge above is
misplaced.  White nationalism is only peripherally
related to National Socialism Mr. Bauer, and I am in
NO way interested in a debate about Hitler, or
National Socialism, or the inconsistencies of either.
My white nationalism is of the strictly modern kind.

"It is expressed today, for example, in holocaust
denial."

What is expressed today in holocaust denial?
Holocaust denial and holocaust revisionism are
essentially peripheral to white nationalism, at best.
I'd be willing to stipulate to the entirety of
holocaust orthodoxy for the purposes of argument.

"Although I have not examined every edit you made you
appear to have consientiously followed the
requirements Wikipedia makes for courtesy and while
you may, as a new user, have broken the 3 revert rule,
I could not
find any grounds for banning you, or even disciplining
you."

I appreciate that much at least.  I am generally a
courteous person.  When my blood gets up that changes
quickly, but I make every effort to comport myself
civilly.  I did not make a single revert, as the logs
show, unless of course "revert" has meanings outside
of that used in the logs, i.e., if it means editing in
changes, then repeating those edits once they are
reverted again.

"You made controverial edits but attempted to discuss
them on the talk pages and in large part your
assertions were unanswered there."

Again, thank you for recognizing the truth.  I found
it exceedingly frustrating to have my edits repeatedly
removed, and to subsequently receive a message
requesting that I discuss them on the talk page, only
to find no one was interested in talking at all.

Imagine how much more frustrated I became when a
Wikipedian kindly pointed out a series of links on
Wikipedia policy, which I reviewed and found far more
supportive of my actions than of the actions of my
reverters.

"You appear to be of Slavic ancestry, judging from
your name. Why on earth would you support such a
philosophy when Hitler's intent was to enslave (and
probably ultimately exterminate) all Slavs?"

Hitler was a Germanic nationalist, solely a
pro-Germanic racist.  I am not.  I'm not a National
Socialist either.  Hitler informs my white nationalist
beliefs strictly in a (vague) historical sense - none
of my beliefs flow from Hitler.  I am a pan-European
white nationalist, my ideologies are informed by the
present more than the past.  In fact, a frequent bone
of contention between myself and certain other white
nationalists is the relevance of Hitler, the Third
Reich, the NSDAP, and National Socialism to modern
non-German white nationalism - I frankly think there
is little to none.

As for my ancestry, my name is misleading since it's a
pseudonym based on an historical figure.  My ancestry
can best be described as American - my father's family
is of English extraction, and landed here before the
Revolutionary War.  My mother's ancestry is
Dutch-Irish.

To be clearer - I consider Slavs to be white, and
welcome them to the fold of white nationalism as fully
as I do all other groups I consider to be white.

"I am not going to unban you, your ban is almost up
anyway, and perhaps you did violate the 3 revert
rule."

As I stated before, I didn't even know what a revert
was until after the hubbub and just prior to being
banned - I have never made a single revert to a
Wikipedia entry, in the 'technical' sense.  As I said
before, I'm not sure of the connotations of the word
'revert' in the common parlance here.

"However you seem to have been improperly banned and
ought not to be provided you continue to edit in a
constructive and courteous way."

Courtesy and constructive behavior are not binary
issues, they exist in a continuum.  I feel that I have
been treated discourteously, and in an unconstructive
way.  It is safe to say that without public apologies
from all the offenders, that part of my courtesy and
constructiveness has been "used up" with regard to
these people.

With that exception in mind, I intend to do exactly as
you have written.

"For you own protection you need to continue to
attempt to discuss controversial edits on the talk
pages as you have been doing."

Rest assured that I will do so, in fact I intend to be
more scrupulous in that regard.

Thank you for your attention on this, you have at
least shown a propensity for fairness in regard to
evaluating my behavior, even if you have not done so
in informing yourself as to my beliefs.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
Mr. Bauer,

I forgot to respond to this statement:

"Fred, (of "mongrel" ancestory)."

I don't approve of referring to people as "mongrels,"
and I certainly don't use that epithet.

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subject: Dueling (was Re: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban)

body:
Perhaps a duel would help? Swords or pistols? ;)

> I take that as a challenge.  I can see now that this
> is going to be a full-fledged battle.  I propose
> that this email list is insufficient to the task.

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from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
I did not block Svigor, and have no plans to do so.  I agree that so far he has played by the rules, and as long as he does so, I have no problems with him.

RickK

Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
He mentioned it as a point in argument. He did not threaten to invite them. And in any event, according to established Wikipedia policy they and their neonazi viewpoints are welcome. He may have technically broken the three revert rule, but that is to be expected from a new user when they first enounter determined opposition. His spam linking is not in itself a violation.

Due to the frustrating nature of dealing with this type of point of view editor, your frustration is understandable, but you can't properly ban folks, even of disagreeable views, if they follow Wikipedia rules.

He tried, in a show of good faith, to discuss many of the controverted points on the talk page of [[white nationalism]] but is not getting much discussion on the points he raised.

Fred

From: Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:15:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

Please note that this user has already threatened to invite posters on a White nationalist website to "visit" WIkipedia in order to make sure that the [[White nationalism]] article matches their POV.  And his comment that he has not reverted an article is untrue.  See the history of [[White nationalism]].  He has also spam linked the White nationalism article, but I've used up my three reverts.

RickK
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
--- Svyatoslav Igorevich <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mr. Bauer,
>...

Dude, keep it short. This is a mailing list, not a novel.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
--- Svyatoslav Igorevich <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mr. Bauer,
>
> I forgot to respond to this statement:
>
> "Fred, (of "mongrel" ancestory)."
>
> I don't approve of referring to people as "mongrels,"
> and I certainly don't use that epithet.

He did not.
He said that about himself. You do approve of his right to say that,
right? No need to respond.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
"Wikipedia does not have a sympathetic point of view
policy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policy_Library
"Key policies

You don't need to read every Wikipedia policy before
you contribute! However, the following policies are
key to a productive Wikipedia experience, and the
sooner you get to grips with them, the better.

   1. Avoid bias. Articles should be written from a
neutral point of view, representing differing views on
a subject fairly and sympathetically."

"Now, your views should definitely be represented in
the article, but so should those of your opponents.  I
haven't looked at the article in question but as
long as you're only adding accurate and attributed
information about the views of white nationalists you
should be fine.  On the other hand, deletions of
criticism or insertions of unverifiable information
are
likely to be deleted."

As I'm sure you know well, there's a fine line.  I
think a careful examination of the talk page and the
history page of "white nationalism" will show that my
edits have been unfairly reverted, against Wikipedia
guidelines.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
"Dude," do you take me for a fool?

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from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon

body:
On Jun 10, 2004, at 10:15 AM, Ray Saintonge wrote:

Copyright doesn't need to be registered, for one thing.

A couple of questions for the people who know more about copyright
history than I do, which might help clear this up. Can computer
languages be put under copyright?

Is the issue that Klingon is a trademark of Paramount relevent? i.e.,
even if the language and syntax is not owned by Paramount, can we call
an encyclopedia "Klingon" without their permission?

One thing I do think is important to reject is the notion of asking
Paramount for permission/doing it with the knowledge that they won't
complain. A Klingon Wikipedia would not simply be an online
encyclopedia in Klingon - it would be a free encyclopedia in Klingon.
We risk doing a lot of harm to the free software/copyleft movement if
we take a misstep here. If we're not 100% certain that Klingon is not
under copyright, I think we're better served to not play with fire
here.

Note that this is not a comment on the value of a Klingon encyclopedia.
It's a comment on the ambiguity of whether or not a Klingon
encyclopedia can be a part of a copyleft/free encyclopedia project. And
a reminder that, with the wolves at the door of copyleft in terms of
things like SCO and Ken Brown's book on Linux, it's probably best to be
cautious about things like this.

-Snowspinn er

> That's an alarmist position and copyright paranoia.  It's also
> defeatist.  You want to collapse immediately even if they are wrong.
> The first step that they would need to take is to issue a take-down
> order, and they haven't done that.  After that, in the absence of
> proper registration on their part (and what that means for an entire
> language remains to be determined) their damages would be limited to a
> recovery of any profits we may have made through a copyright
> violation. ( O:-) )
>
> Since you seem to be arguing on behalf of Paramount, what legal
> citations are you using to back your position.
>
> This copyright issue is far more important than the status of the
> Klingon language, so please stop using it as an excuse for blocking
> Klingon.


from_name: Nathan Hamblen

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Overriding browser functionality, however, is never ever acceptable.
> [...]
> No conflicting access keys will be kept.

I think you're taking the wrong tack here. We shouldn't have been able
to override the browser functionality in the first place. It's a Mozilla
bug:

http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128452

People suffering from this bug on Firefox Linux might try changing
ui.key.generalAccessKey to something else; perhaps "0" disables
accesskeys entirely?

As far as the site goes, it should set accesskeys that are the most
useful to the most people, without too much regard for pre-release
browsers on Linux with open accesskey bugs.

Nathan


subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
--- Svyatoslav Igorevich <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Dude," do you take me for a fool?

No.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
Svyatoslav Igorevich wrote:

>Mr. Bauer,
>
>I forgot to respond to this statement:
>
>"Fred, (of "mongrel" ancestory)."
>
>I don't approve of referring to people as "mongrels,"
>and I certainly don't use that epithet.
>
>
Fred is certainly known to have strong opinions.  He was not applying
the term to anyone but himself.  The North American population is
derived from a wide range of immigrants.  For us mongrel ancestry
represents acceptable self-deprecating humour.  We have no intent to
become contestents in a dog show.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
 I would support any move to reduce the number of
> sysops.

Likewise.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
I replied in haste, after I sent that I reread your
email and realized that you'd mistaken my meaning.  I
didn't mean that Mr. Bauer was referring to me as a
"mongrel," I was responding to what I saw as his
implied statement that I, as a WN, would view him as a
"mongrel."

--- Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Svyatoslav Igorevich
> <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Dude," do you take me for a fool?
>
> No.
>
>
>
> =====
> Christopher Mahan
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> 818.943.1850 cell
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
I think we don't need to reduce the number, so much as
ensure that they are following community made
guidelines. Mark

--- Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>  I would support any move to reduce the number of
> > sysops.
>
> Likewise.
>
> =====
> Christopher Mahan
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> 818.943.1850 cell
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> I would support any move to reduce the number of
>
>>sysops.
>>
>
>Likewise.
>
Oh the irony... Wasn't there a big push to *increase* the number
of sysops not so long ago? I seem to recall much grumbling about
how the sysops were being overloaded etc etc.

Stan


subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
--- Svyatoslav Igorevich <svyatoslav_igorevich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I replied in haste, after I sent that I reread your
> email and realized that you'd mistaken my meaning.  I
> didn't mean that Mr. Bauer was referring to me as a
> "mongrel," I was responding to what I saw as his
> implied statement that I, as a WN, would view him as a
> "mongrel."

Except of course that I understood your meaning the first time as you
have explained.

Anyway.

I suggest you find something else to edit for a while, when your ban
expires. Something neutral, like the histories of aircraft
manufacturers. Very few edit wars and bannings in that area.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
--- Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think we don't need to reduce the number, so much as
> ensure that they are following community made
> guidelines. Mark

But if the sysops don't, surely they need to be desysopped.

Also: people who have been inactive for a while (6 months or more)
should perhaps be desysopped (with cursory reinstatement if needed).

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
Well, in general there seems little interest in
holding sysops accountable to the community
guidelines.
Mark

--- Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I think we don't need to reduce the number, so
> much as
> > ensure that they are following community made
> > guidelines. Mark
>
> But if the sysops don't, surely they need to be
> desysopped.
>
> Also: people who have been inactive for a while (6
> months or more)
> should perhaps be desysopped (with cursory
> reinstatement if needed).
>
> =====
> Christopher Mahan
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> 818.943.1850 cell
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] wiki syntax for exponant

body:
Hello,

I implemented a new wiki syntax for mediawiki.

The syntax is:
    ^^sometext^^
It will render HTML as:
    sometext

It's not commited in cvs yet, but you can test it on my development
website at:
    http://www.twenkill.net/wiki/index.php/Exposant

Please test this function heavily and report bugs by replying to this
post or directly to me.

We can also discuss about using another token than ^^.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Delirium

body:
Nathan Hamblen wrote:

> As far as the site goes, it should set accesskeys that are the most
> useful to the most people, without too much regard for pre-release
> browsers on Linux with open accesskey bugs.

That would probably be very few access keys then.  Do more than a
handful of people actually use these access keys, and have any
significant number of people requested them?  I'd wager there's more
Wikipedians who use Firefox on Linux than there are Wikipedians who use
alt + . to visit their user page.

-Mark


from_name: Theresa Robinson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Klingon

body:
A few places where the intellectual property status of Klingon is being
discussed:

http://www.hill-kleerup.org/blog/mtarchive/006214.html
http://www.corante.com/importance/archives/002300.html
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001198.php
http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/LanguageOwned.html
http://www.pacificwarriors.com/catalog/sfa1.html

moink


body:
"Perhaps a duel would help? Swords or pistols? ;)"

:)

As I said, perhaps the gauntlet was best aimed not at
Mr. Bauer but at any who feel a grievance towards my
stated ideology, in general.

I do feel very strongly that in order to achieve
fairness in the WN article, I'm going to be required
to engage in a full-blown discussion of all things WN
with my Wikipedian opponents.

As much as I dislike giving good advice to potential
opponents, I deplore an easy contest even more: if I
am fortunate enough to engage them in such a debate, I
suggest they bring their "A" game.

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body:
Mr. Bauder,
I apologize for chronically misspelling your name
until now, it was an oversight and not deliberate.

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list: foundation-l

from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Foundation-l] Article validation

body:
Ulrich Fuchs wrote:

>If we all would agree that we are working on an encyclopaedia, not an
>everything-goes-in-wiki, not a website,

This doesn't make any sense to me.
The whole point of an encyclopaedia is that everything goes in it.
That's the meaning of the work "encyclopaedia".
The (unfortunately common) phrase "This topic is unencylopedic."
is nonsensical.

Of course, "everything" is a vague term that requires a context.
So a general encyclopaedia rightfully covers every ''subject'',
but this doesn't mean that it should include personal homepages,
or commercial advertisements, or other "things" of that nature.
However, I believe that we all agree on that much.

>if we would all agree that it's needed
>to delete poorly researched content and articles on silly subjects (like "the
>xyz drum produced by company A") while there aren't articles on the main
>subject ("Drumming"), then we wouldn't need to talk about those "validation"
>concepts, because the validation would happen all the time - the wiki
>principle would do.

I can't imagine how the existence of the article [[Drumming]]
would make an article on a particular brand of drum more or less appropriate
(especially considering that the more relevant [[Drum]] is quite old).
Certainly, an article on drumming is more ''important'' to have
than an article on any particlar kind (brand, or other division) of drum.
But we're not paying our contributors to write the most important articles;
beggars can't be choosers, and they write about what they want to write about.
(That said, we already have an article on drumming: [[Drum]].)

This is rather specific discussion that we probably don't need
to carry further on the general foundation mailing list.
But it shows why we're not all going to agree with you about everything.

>A validation process can operate in two ways: either there is some was of a
>democratic voting sytem, which will lead to mediocre article (science is not
>democratic). Or there are some people which are more trusted than others -
>and that's the capitulation of the wiki principle.

I agree, which is why Wikipedia as such doesn't need validation.
Anybody that produces an abbreviated selection of Wikipedia
(whether the Wikimedia Foundation does it or somebody else does it)
will need some criteria of inclusion.  Peer review,
or some other kind of validation, may be reasonable.
But Wikipedia itself -- the big wiki at <wikipedia.org> --
does not need this, I agree.

Even the current deletion method
is a partial capitulation of the wiki principle.
Does anybody else remember Wikipedia's first deletion policy,
when only Jimbo, Larry Sanger, and Tim Shell were allowed to delete?
And Manning Bartlett (hardly a radical inclusionist) wrote:
>...>I do not want to see this list of "deleters" expanded.
How much we have changed! ^_^

>Our problems is not validation. Our problem is that the goals are not clear
>(what goes in, or perhaps: what goes in in which edition), and that editing
>(which means: deleting a lot of things) is considered bad habit.

BTW, are we talking about Wikimedia in general here, or only Wikipedia?

-- Toby


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Article validation


subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
> Wikipedia policy also requires a "sympathetic"
> treatment of subjects, in addition to a "neutral" one.

Wikipedia does not have a sympathetic point of view policy.  Now, your
views should definitely be represented in the article, but so should those
of your opponents.  I haven't looked at the article in question but as
long as you're only adding accurate and attributed information about the
views of white nationalists you should be fine.  On the other hand,
deletions of criticism or insertions of unverifiable information are
likely to be deleted.

moink


from_name: Timwi

body:
Troels Arvin wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:06:00 +0100, Timwi wrote:
>
>>Taking more letters of the alphabet away from us is only going to make
>>this even worse.
>
> Then cut down on the access-key ambitions.

*sigh*. I can't describe how glad I am that I will be able to keep my
shortcuts through [[User:Timwi/monobook.js]]. It's such a nice and handy
thing to have. The bestest invention since sliced bread. :-) Thanks a
lot to Gabriel for that. It was a brilliant idea that serves to keep
regular users very happy with the site.

Timwi


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> It's not necessary to assign a key to every conceivable function!

One of the many things I've learnt about user interface design is that
the programmer should never impose an arbitrary decision upon the user
with regards to what options are supposed to be more important or more
commonly used.

That said, not everything *has* an access key (the "summary" field on
Edit screens, for example). But if it is possible to assign an access
key to *all* of the links that are visible on *every single pageview*,
then it should be done.

But then again, my argumentation here is moot, because I don't really
care. Whatever you do, my monobook.js is going to override it anyway. So
feel free to ignore me. :-)

Timwi


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Andreas Kasenides wrote:
>
>> Can somebody please look into this?
>> This was adaquately described by Timwi on this list and I include the
>> final message from the discussion. I certainly tried to correct the
>> problem with
>> reediting and correcting the offending messages but alas!
>> This behaviour appears only in the new monobook interface, it works
>> correctly
>> if  the user switches to other styles.
>
> Okay, I managed to track this one down... turns out it's actually a PHP
> bug, which is triggered by the use of the htmlentities() function in the
> PHPTal template engine. PHP 4.3.7, released about a week ago, lists this
> as a bug fix for that release, but I've worked around it temporarily by
> switching to htmlspecialchars() which doesn't mess with the main part of
> the text.

Could you describe to us who are technically interested but not very
familiar with the code ;-) what exactly was wrong?

What I don't understand about it is why the text needs to go through any
processing at all that would generate any HTML entities whatsoever. Why
can't the UTF-8 text in the MediaWiki namespace be output directly?

Thanks,
Timwi


from_name: Troels Arvin

body:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:06:00 +0100, Timwi wrote:

> Taking more letters of the alphabet away from us is only going to make
> this even worse.

Then cut down on the access-key ambitions.

--
Greetings from Troels Arvin, Copenhagen, Denmark


from_name: Ralesk Ne'vennoyx

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wiki syntax for exponant

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I implemented a new wiki syntax for mediawiki.
>
> The syntax is:
>    ^^sometext^^
> It will render HTML as:
>    sometext
>
> It's not commited in cvs yet, but you can test it on my development
> website at:
>    http://www.twenkill.net/wiki/index.php/Exposant
>
>
> Please test this function heavily and report bugs by replying to this
> post or directly to me.
>
> We can also discuss about using another token than ^^.
>
>

A little thinking tells me it doesn?t allow nesting.


body:
Gabriel Wicke wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 15:07 +0100, Timwi wrote:
>
>>What I don't understand about it is why the text needs to go through any
>>processing at all that would generate any HTML entities whatsoever. Why
>>can't the UTF-8 text in the MediaWiki namespace be output directly?
>
> Things like & need to be escaped for xhtml validation. This is done
> automatically by phptal for attributes and content if you don't specify
> the 'structure' prefix and by tidy (if enabled) or php regexes for the
> content.

Oh, OK, I forgot about that ... but doesn't that only affect &, < and >,
and at most possibly also " and '? I don't see why Greek letters would
need to be entity-ised.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] RickK

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> I would support any move to reduce the number of
>
>
>>sysops.
>>
>>
>
>Likewise.
>
>
I don't think I would, though I do think sysops should be sparing in
using their powers, especially more controversial powers, and we should
have some way to police this.

Having fewer sysops tends to make it more cabal-like, while the original
intention was basically "anyone that is halfway trustworthy gets to be a
sysop."  Also, some sysop powers, like being able to delete a page whose
only history is a string of redirects in order to make way for a page
move, are very useful for day-to-day wiki maintenance tasks.

I think some sort of structural change is needed on the protected-page
front to make that particular sysop power less frequently necessary
though.  Some have been proposed, although I'm not sure if anyone has
fleshed out any particular details.  I think that, similar to what some
people have proposed, there needs to be some sort of "soft protection"
for controversial articles.  While "be bold" is in general the Wiki
philosophy, some articles, like [[Gdansk]], [[Israel]], and [[Jew]],
have been painstakingly crafted over a period of months (sometimes
years) with lots of discussion.  In those cases, people really shouldn't
be bold and make massive changes to the article---they should make
relatively local, isolated changes, and place on the talk page their
reason for doing anything that might be considered reasonably
controversial.  If a major rewrite is seen as the only option, it should
be discussed extensively on the talk page rather than simply boldly
done---you can't just write your own [[Israel]] article from scratch and
stick it there and expect it to stay.

One possibility is to avoid any software-level changes, but make it
policy (or at least pseudo-policy) that on such articles large changes
made without discussion will be reverted as a routine matter, with a
comment to the person that they should read the talk page and propose
their changes, preferably one at a time.  Then instead of protecting the
page, repeated re-applications of the changes without discussion will
result in a ban of the offending user, or preferably a per-article ban,
if that is implemented at some point.  This way individual users making
massive changes to controversial topics without discussion don't impede
the normal compromise work by forcing a page protection.

There's other possible solutions, such as moving to a "submit proposed
changes" model for controversial articles, instead of updating the wiki
live, but they introduce a whole host of problems on their own... I
haven't been able to come up with a model of that sort with the details
worked out in a way that seems satisfactory, so I won't personally be
proposing something of that sort (yet, anyway).

-Mark


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

body:
On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 15:07 +0100, Timwi wrote:

> What I don't understand about it is why the text needs to go through any
> processing at all that would generate any HTML entities whatsoever. Why
> can't the UTF-8 text in the MediaWiki namespace be output directly?

Things like & need to be escaped for xhtml validation. This is done
automatically by phptal for attributes and content if you don't specify
the 'structure' prefix and by tidy (if enabled) or php regexes for the
content.

Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wiki syntax for exponant

body:
Fennec Foxen wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:02:48 +0200, Ashar Voultoiz <thoane at altern.org> wrote:
>
>>Hello,
>>I implemented a new wiki syntax for mediawiki.
>
> Question: shouldn't this stuff go on Wikitech-l instead of Wikipedia-l?
> (not 100% sure but it sounds like a more appropriate forum)

Yup it should, but I wanted to make it as large as possible to get as
many reports as possible.

So far the ^^ token is going to be rejected as japaneses use it as smileys.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Hints for mediawiki performance

body:
Matias Pelenur wrote:
<snip perf tweaks request for which I can't help>

> Incidentally I couldn't find a page with this info on meta.wikipedia but
> maybe I didn't look hard enough. I can definitely add any useful replies
> to a new "performance settings" page.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Matias

Hello,

The mediawiki user documentation is at:
     http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_User%27s_Guide

but I haven't found anything in those pages related to performances tweaks.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: Ulrich Fuchs

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wiki syntax for exponant

body:
> > Hello,
> > I implemented a new wiki syntax for mediawiki.
>
> Question: shouldn't this stuff go on Wikitech-l instead of Wikipedia-l?
> (not 100% sure but it sounds like a more appropriate forum)

No, I really like it that such a post is posted here, not on the tech list.
Every feature that affects the users should get announced and here and it
should be discussed if it fit's the need. For the currently proposed feature
I don't see the need, so I don't see why we should "spoil" the next char
sequence.

Uli


body:
Hiya. As an aside, please could you tell your mail software to use
linebreaks (i.e. word-wrapping)? Thanks.

> Brian mentioned that he is going to revisit the ?template inclusion?.

Actually, I think that was Tim Starling.

> In his mail Brian mentions: ?English and German are exceptions to this
> rule because of special-case work done by the respective contributors.?

Again, that was Tim Starling. The "special-case work" he was referring
to was the conversion of the respective Wiktionaries to UTF-8 (sorry if
this is too technical, since we're not on the tech list here). This
cannot be done by regular contributors and must be done externally.
Because of that, I'm finding it extremely disappointing that nobody has
done it yet and expects a Dutch contributor to do it. Tim, or Brion, or
whoever, please could you convert all Wiktionaries to UTF-8? The sooner
you do it, the less there will be to convert.

> [Tim Starling] does not think much of en:wiktionary. He thinks that it
> needs many new features. In the nl:wiktionary, I am adding words for
> languages with a ISO 639 identification. I have a standardized way to
> indicate the translations (using ISO 639 to indicate the language) this
> should enable the quick translation from words from one wiktionary to
> other wikionaries that support the messages that are used.

That is actually quite a good idea. Apparently the Dutch Wiktionary uses
something like this:

* {{de}}: [[Wort]] {{m}}

to specify a translation. This is clever, because if all Wiktionaries
were to use this, these lines could be copied to and fro between the
Wiktionaries.

Greetings,
Timwi


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Protesting my ban

body:
Fennec Foxen wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:25:59 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Fred is certainly known to have strong opinions.  He was not applying
>>the term to anyone but himself.
>>
>>
>
>Perhaps the modifier "self-described" would be in order. But this is
>really something for the article talk page.
>
Fred is entitled to call himself a mongrel.  I take pride in my own
mongrel roots.  Why should there need to be a [[Mongrel]] article and
associated talk page?

Ec


body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

>    http://www.twenkill.net/wiki/index.php/Exposant

http://www.twenkill.net/wiki/index.php?title=Exposant&action=edit

	Parse error: parse error in /var/www/wiki/includes/Title.php on
	line 1188

	Fatal error: Undefined class name 'title' in
	/var/www/wiki/includes/Setup.php on line 219


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] phase3/stylesheets
	wikibits.js, 1.34, 1.35

body:
On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 15:07 +0200, Troels Arvin wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:06:00 +0100, Timwi wrote:
>
> > Taking more letters of the alphabet away from us is only going to make
> > this even worse.
>
> Then cut down on the access-key ambitions.

Forgot to mention: 'What links here' is using 'j' since yesterday, so b
isn't used anymore.

Gabriel Wicke