subject: [Commons-l] (no subject)

body:
Hi.

>If the flag is correct, and I would create another
>correct flag, however, it would be exactly the same, and
>it would be free. Legally, drawing the same flag again,
>pixel for pixel, would alter its license, wouldn't it?

I think this would a copyright violation as long as you
immitate an existing copyrighted work to create another
without permission. Similarly, for example, if you
draw a painting which looks like someone else's,
and it is not a coincident but a result of an influence,
it could be a violation. Degree of similarity matters,
but in this case, we are talking about exact reproduction.

>If so, can I let an image program do this? Suppose I find a correct flag
>in .gif format, download it, convert it to .png. It then is a different
>flag with the same content. If the license of the source is unknown,
>what do I know about the license of the new .png?

Converting a file into different format, or taking a
picture of, say, copyrighted painting, copying a text
from one format to another (from PDF to RTF), are
usually considered reproduction, not derivative works. And
rights to reproduce, as well as to create derivative works
are exclusively held by authors or other copyright holders.

Finally, I have not checked if flags are copyrighted, and
who are the copyright holders. Quite a few flags exist since
long before, so they might be in the public domain
already. As you know, copyright protection expires. I think
investigating that is a shorter way to get copyright free flags.

I also wonder if all flags are copyrightable. Some flags are
very simple, so I am not sure if they are copyrightable at
all. If a country has a simple blue recutangular flag
with 3:2 proportion, is that recutangular copyrightable? I
don't think so. What if there is a flag with two colors -
a recutangular and a circle in it? I don't know.

Well, I know only Japanese and American copyright laws,
and I am not a lawyer, so I could be wrong.

Tomos


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Dealing with corporate propagandists

body:
Mark Pellegrini stated for the record:

> what is to stop them from starting large, organized astroturfing on
> Wikipedia?
>
>
> I think it would be a good idea to having some contigency plans in place
> should that happen.

 From the back of the bottle of contingency plans: "Revert, ban, repeat."

--
  Sean Barrett     | Four parts ammonia, one part iodine crystals.
  sean at epoptic.com |


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Robin Shannon

subject: [Wikitech-l] who's afraid of stupid newbies?

body:
Over at the wikien list a small flame war between PHP and perl,
resulted in a bunch of people all saying that they would love to
contribute to mediawiki development, however do not have the technical
know-how to do so. And thus was born the idea of a group PHP tutorial
with the aim of bringing people who dont know PHP up to a level where
they can do menial coding, simple bug fixes etc. for mediawiki,
freeing up time that the more skilled developers could use on
something else, and hopefully (after the internship of doing easy
stuff) become full blooded developers. So what they are looking for is
someone who has a good knowledge of PHP to act as thier guide. <uncle
sam voice> IS THAT PERSON YOU!?!?!?!?! </uncle sam voice>

hopefully,
[[w:User:The bellman]]
rjs

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Georgian wiktionary Capitalisation

body:
Could someone please take the capitalisation off at ka.wiktionary.org?

I have a set of words with Georgian translations and I am checking them
step by step with the admin of the Georgian wikipedia - so I would like
to add terms etc. there (maybe this way we will find more people
interested in this project).

And: we need a Georgian speaking admin there - and at least an admin (of
any language) who can delete the pages I need to re-direct (just a few
at this stage) - I could even do this myself for now.

Thank you!!!

Best wishes and have a great week-end!

Sabine

--
Sabine Cretella
s.cretella at wordsandmore.it
Phone: +39-340-18098278
Skype: callto://sabinecretella

Meetingplace for translators
www.wesolveitnet.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Learn PHP

body:
Okay,

 To everyone else who said they would like to learn PHP to help in
developing mediawiki,  - i put a message on the dev mailing list
asking for any knowledgeble PHPer who would be willing to be our
guide. If i get any replies (which hopefully i will) ill post a copy
here. Also, there is a wikibook course on PHP, however i dont know
what quality it is since i dont know PHP and cant judge (its an
eternal loop isnt it?) also wikiversity might be worth checking out.

Paz y amor,
[[User:The bellman]]
rjs

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Frank v Waveren

subject: [Wikipedia-l] We've been verbed

body:
On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 06:42:01AM -0700, Fred Bauder wrote:
> We are becoming an institution...
Does that mean we replace the Wikipedia T-shirts with
straight-jackets? I've been advocating that for some time now.

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: 9106 FD0D
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      D6D9 3E7D FAF0 92D1
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/8D54EB90              3931 90D6 8D54 EB90


from_name: R E Broadley

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: A user seems to have spent the day
	reverting	articles which appeared to be legitamite edits

body:
Dear Rick,

You misunderstand me, but it's ok, most people do, so I won't take it
personally. I'm not sure what you mean by me being on the mailing list
anonymously, is my name or email address hidden?

I would say this. Power corrupts, and without adequate self-analysis,
one can become arrogant, throw their weight around, and revert any edits
on the spot just because they didn't understand what the person had
written. Your Chicago edit today for instance, if you'd merely clicked
on the "world city" article, you would have been able to find out what
an "alpha world city" is, but instead you just removed the word "alpha"
from the article, because you weren't familiar with the term. At least
you gave a reason in your edit comments though, which is an improvement,
so thanks, I was then able to reword the article with the knowledge of
why it had been changed.

Regards,
Ed

Rick wrote:

>It was no mistake.  This person is a troll.  This is the same person who came onto the mailing list as an anon, expressing amazement that his edits to the September 11 attacks page were reverted.  His wide-eyed innocent act doesn't fool me.  He's already filed an RfC on me even though I explained to him on his Talk page why I had acted in the manner I did on the edits he's questioning.  I have no desire to continue discussion with him.
>
>RickK
>
>"KNOTT, T" <tknott at qcl.org.uk> wrote:
>Some admins watch recent changes, and have vandalism in progress on
>their watchlists. Other don't. Rick is one of the former. In fact, he
>deals with vandalism a lot! His user page regularly gets vandalised, and
>his talk page regularly gets messages from vandals that he has blocked
>(Who are trying to troll him, or merely expressing an opinion about his
>sexuality, or his mothers sexuality etc ;-). He probably mistook you for
>one.
>
>Theresa
>
>


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Learn PHP

body:
Learning PHP is something that people can do on their own. I learned
what I know about it by doing a Google search for the words "PHP" and
"tutorial." Here are a couple of links that I have found useful:

http://webmonkey.wired.com/webmonkey/99/21/index2a.html?tw=programming

http://www.php.net/manual/en/

If you want to attract volunteers to help with coding, I think
thoroughly documenting the project's existing code would accomplish
more than trying to offer help learning PHP. People can get help with
PHP from lots of places, but Wikimedia is the only place they can go
to find specific answers about the MediaWiki codebase.

--Sheldon Rampton


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject: [Wikitech-l] $wgEnableEmail $wgEnableEmailUser

body:
Brion,

you have recently introduced two new variables (see Subject) without
consulting me. This action put a lot of pressure to me, as I am working
on a perfect Email Authentication by using the principles as fully
described in

http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=866
[Bug 866] Email authentication by a dummy "forgot my password" cycle

which is almost ready. I would kindly like to ask you that you inform my
about such variables, which influence my work.

Please can you explain to me the reasons for your variables - they make
no sense without an ***email authentication*** as for example disclosed
in my http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=868 .

In this bugzilla I describe the difference between an un-authenticated
address ("dirty") which is only be used for "I forgot my password"
cycle, wheras authenticated "clean" addresses are used for EmailUser and
Email Notification (my enotif patch
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454 ). The Enotif mailing
actions can be enabled or disabled by options in DefaultSettings.php and
- if enabled - any user sees a corresponding option in his/her user
preferences, where he can opt-in or opt-out to receive notification on
changes of his/her watched pages and/or user_talk page.

Everything is publically disclosed in http://meta.wikipedia.org/Enotif
and I invite you all to spend some minutes for reading it.


from_name: medifel at altern.org

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipédia new language : Algerian

body:
Algerian language, badly named "Arabic", Algerian Spoken, is the language
of more than 20 millions persons. It's a mix of lot of languages like
arabic, turkish, french, spanish, berber etc.
It's not exactly arabic, because gramatically it's totaly different.
Speakers of Algerian who don't know what we call "classical" arabic, don't
understood arabic.
Algerian language is the common language of every body in Algeria, but
since independance (1962), the Pan-arabism vision denied totaly the
existance of a specific algerian language, as it denied the existance
berber languages.
Algerian language was almost not written at all (no newspaper, no book)
but with the Internet we discovered that we coul wrote our own language
(using latin alphabet with some specific caracters for special sounds).
So we want to create an algerian Wikipedia to to persuade people that we
can use our language as a normal one.

N.B. : In Algeria before 1962, French was the only language used, since
ind?pendance, Arab was reintroduced with force to make forget french
colonisation. But the leaders forgot that what speak the natives it was
not Arabic.
That's why today we say that the algerian school produce "trilingual
illiterates", because we learn evey thing in arabic, but it's not our
mother tongue. We learn French as first forein language, but not enought
to use it well. And finally we never learn our mother tongue Algerian.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ARQ


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Larouche issue: Strawman criticisms

body:
Dude. Someone who had never been the subject of an arbcom ruling was
ordered banned by the arbcom for violation of a ruling in a case that
happened before they started using Wikipedia.

This was in fact the arbcom declaring that LaRouche viewpoints are not
to be introduced to articles and that doing so could get one banned.

If the ruling only applyed to Herchel and some other people, that would
have been one thing. But the ruling was used BY THE ARBCOM to justify a
ban on someone who was uninvolved in the dispute they had ruled on.

Worse, the LaRouche point of view was ordered out of an article on
someone who was involved in the LaRouche movement. It's not as though
this was something like the Frankfurt School, where I have argued
against the inclusion of the LaRouche view on the grounds that it was
not a relevant or significant viewpoint.

That was an overstepping of the arbcom's mandate. The validity of
including a viewpoint in an article needs to be taken on a case by case
basis. In certain cases (Such as the people involved in the original
LaRouche ruling) it may b appropriate to curb specific people from
editing to include specific viewpoints. But to ban a viewpoint from all
articles and to create a rule that applies to users who have had no
case brought against them and against future users of Wikipedia is not
within the arbcom mandate.

And that is exactly what happened.

-Snowspinner

On Nov 27, 2004, at 3:56 PM, Robert wrote:

> Snowspinner writes:
>> I'm seriously concerned about a recent arbcom
>> enforcement. A ban was ordered against [[User:C Colden]]
>> as per the ruling in the case of Lyndon LaRouche.
>>
>> ....However, the ruling of the case, apparently, was a
>> ruling against the insertion of "original research
>> originating with the LaRouche movement" (Which seems
>> to be an interchangable phrase with "the LaRouche point
>> of view") into any article by any user.
>
>
> This is a false charge. You are making this up. No one is
> claiming that an NPOV description of LaRouche's point of
> view is original research, or is forbidden. Your claim is
> nonsense.
>
> The problem here is that many Larouche supporters violate
> Wikipedia editorial policy by shoving in their own original
> research, or pushing their own personal point-of-view as
> fact. Further, they systematically distort many Wikipedia
> articles by pushing the Larouche POV in places where it has
> no meaning or relevance.  They are taking the POV of a
> fringe, cult-like convicted criminal, and falsely
> presenting it as a POV that is just as widely accepted as
> those of any mainstream political party.
>
> One could do the same thing with any of a dozen other
> fringe self-styled political leaders who have been
> convicted of crimes. However, the views of a self-styled
> political messiah with little following does not deserve
> the grand attention and treatment that a handful of
> LaRouche supporters are giving it. Further, his views
> certainly must be presented in an NPOV way without any
> original research, which is not what his supporters do.
>
>
>> This seems to me to reflect a hard arbcom ruling that
>> the LaRouche POV is not something that need be included
>> under the Wikipedia NPOV policy.
>
> Nonsense. This is a strawman argument against a position
> that no one has made.
>
>
>> As loathesome as I find the LaRouche movement to be,
>> I am seriously troubled by the notion that the arbcom
>> can and will make blanket rulings that certain
>> perspectives are not part of NPOV.
>
> Nonsense. You are arguing a strawman criticism that a
> number of LaRouche supporters have been doing here for some
> time. We aren't falling for it.
>
>
> Robert (RK)
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Roy

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Fatal Error on start page

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Nov 26, 2004, at 10:50 AM, Roy wrote:
>
>> Any ideas about this message:
>>
>> Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in
>> c:\apache\htdocs\mediawiki\includes\Parser.php on line 1532
>>
>> I get it right away when I try to go to the main wiki page.
>
>
> It would help if you could tell us some information about your system,
> such as:
> * Do other pages on the wiki work?
> * What version of MediaWiki are you running?
> * Is this a fresh, new install, or have you been using it successfully
> and it only recently developed the problem?
> * Is it an upgrade? If so, from what version? Did it stop working
> immediately after the upgrade?
> * If this problem only recently started, have you recently made any
> changes to the system?
> * Have you made any customizations to the configuration?
> * Have you made any customizations to the code?
> * Have you changed any of the user interface messages in the MediaWiki:
> namespace? If so, which ones? In particular, did you change
> [[MediaWiki:Mainpage]]?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

I can't get to the other pages since the index.php breakes on this message.
Media wiki version is 1.3.7
this is a fresh install, and I have been using it for several days, and
then it developed the problem
The changes I made: I replaced the wiki image on the start up pages, and
I edited the [[MediaWiki:Nogomatch]] page to give the user to option to
create a new page in case of no match.
I can reinstall the software since I am just testing it, and it doesn't
have any real data in it.
I am using Apache 1.3.33 and MySql 4.1.7 on a windows 2k platform


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: [[Abu Graib prisoner abuse (no pictures)]] on VfD

body:
I very strongly oppose text-only pages for only certain articles,
however, as a general attribute that can be turned on or off by the
user for all pages (With the defult obviously being on FOR ALL PAGES)
i have no real objections.

paz y amor,'
[[User:The bellman]]
rjs

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:32:02 -0500, Minh Nguyen <mxn at zoomtown.com> wrote:
> csherlock at ljh.com.au wrote:
> > I think people are going to have to come to a better solution than this,
> > or the software will need some modification (for instance, flagging
> > images as potentially offensive and giving users a setting to see/not
> > see these images).
>
> Perhaps we could use transclusion? There would be an [[Abu Ghraib
> prisoner abuse (text only)]] article, which could be transcluded to the
> [[Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse (with images)]] article. Or vice-versa.
> [[Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse]] could be used as a dismbig that would ask
> if you wanted to see the article with photos.
>
> This would keep both articles in sync, and would allow users to decide
> whether they want to view the images beforehand (for students etc.).
>
> This is also similar to what the [[Main Page]] offers, with its link to
> [[Main Page (table free)|Text only]]. Except that tables are being
> omitted in this case, not images.
>
> > I really hope that other articles won't take up this, for instance
> > [[clitoris]] might decide to fork over disputes over the image of a
> > women's vagina on the page (I personally think that these people need to
> > just get over it, but I'm not everyone). My concern, however, is how to
> > keep the articles in sync once they have been duplicated.
>
> There are children who use Wikipedia regularly, though. They probably
> wouldn't have any business reading articles like [[clitoris]], but they
> might accidentally stumble upon these articles. Keeping a text-only version
>
> > Further: it's a slipperyly slope when we start allowing dupes: we have a
> > similar situation where we had [[Zionist revisionism]] and
> > [[Israeli-Palestinian history denial]]. Two seperate articles, yet both
> > talking about very similar things. Perhaps not quite the same, but you
> > can see how messy things get when we allow duplication of articles!
>
> I would draw a distinction between 1) an imageless version of an article
>   and 2) two separate yet very similar *topics*.
>
> Ideally, enough people would be monitoring these articles on their
> watchlists (that's likely with controversial topics anyhow), so it
> wouldn't be necessary to have automatic synchronization.
>
> > Ta bu shi da yu
>
> --
> Minh Nguyen <mxn at zoomtown.com>
> AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: mxn at myjabber.net; Blog: http://mxn.f2o.org/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
hit me: robin.shannon.id.au
jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

body:
I had an ephiphany today. I saw the write up on Firefox on the main page.
It got me thinking - what is to stop Microsoft, which (a) funds fallacious
studies showing that its products are more stable/secure/cheaper (studies
which everyone knows,are laughably wrong)  and (b) has a history of
astroturfing
(" formal public relations projects which deliberately seek to engineer the
impression
of spontaneous and populist reactions to a politician, product, service,
event, etc") -
what is to stop them from starting large, organized astroturfing on
Wikipedia?

I'm going to make a prediction. Within the next 6 to 18 months, we're goint
to start
seeing organized corporate astroturfing on Wikipedia. They've already
started doing it
to blogs (EA even went to far as to run a false blog, which posed as a beta
developer for
one of their upcoming games). I'm not talking about the little stuff we see
already - I'm talking
about PR drones register wikipedia accounts, making large contributions over
a long time to a
large number of articles with no attempt at NPOV, citing ludicriously biased
studies, writing
glowing product recommendations (or conversely, we could start seeing
negative propaganda).

I think it would be a good idea to having some contigency plans in place
should that happen.

--Mark


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipédia new language : Alge rian

body:
I don't know, if a native speaker is requesting this, and especially
if there are others who support it (note his use of "we", however
often this is just used to refer to all speakers of the language), I
don't see why we should ignore such a request.

Other Wikipedias have had to wrestle with the problem of
standardisation, and some are still wrestling with it. For example,
there is no Sicilian standard written language, so rules for this
standard written language, including how verbs should be conjugated
which varies from dialect to dialect, what pronouns are used which
varies from dialect to dialect, and what articles are used which
varies, and other similar things have been set forth in the
"linguasiciliana" online community. For example, even the "Wikipedia -
the free encyclopedia" was a hot topic for a while. "Wikipedia,
l'enciclopedia libbira" was finally decided on (the original was
"Wikipedia, l'enciclopedia libira").

Other Wikipedias where there is a written standard, but it is weak or
not widely known, are promoting it as well, for example the
Luxemburgish Wikipedia has pages in the Wikipedia namespace explaining
how to correctly write the language.

And what you say is not entirely true, when you speak of written
Western Arabic early in your e-mail, I believe you're referring to
Modern Standard Arabic as written from Libya westward, whereas later
when you refer to it, as in bible translations, you appear to be
talking about a transcription of colloquial speech.

The situation of dialects vs. languages is very complex and very
debatable, especially in this case. Currently, Wikipedia favours
neither and says "Algerian Arabic" rather than "Algerian dialect" or
"Algerian language".

The problem here is that, while Algerian Arabic could easily be called
a separate language from the Arabics of the Persian Gulf (yes, I meant
"Arabics" with an s on the end), the differences between the Algerian,
Tunisian, Moroccan, and perhaps Libyan (not sure about Libyan) Arabics
are very small, so a Moroccan Arabic phrasebook should work everywhere
west of Libya (at least, everywhere that speaks Arabic with the
possible exceptions of Western Sahara and Mauritania, but that's a
more difficult issue), so that it would probably be better to have a
Western Arabic Wikipedia (this can probably be compared to Alsatian vs
Alemannic, except that Western Arabics are not as different from one
another as Alemannic dialects/languages are).

Indeed, there are many Algerian, Tunisian, and Moroccan merchants and
beggars who have only the most basic knowledge of writing (they may
know the alphabet, but not MSA) and thus they would only be able to
read something written in the vernacular.

If this request is, for whatever reason, denied, there are a couple of
cases where there is no question a separate Wikipedia is required:
Cypriot Mennonite Arabic (the most divergent of all Arabics, also has
a lot of Greek influence), various Arabic creoles and creoloids of
sub-Saharan Africa, perhaps some Judeo-Arabics if they are still alive
by the time it is requested (they are often very similar to other
Arabics, but they use Hebrew letters and thus there is no mutual
comprehensibility in the written form), and various Central Asian
Arabics, although they appear to be headed downhill as well.

In addition, it should be noted that Maltese has a separate Wikipedia,
and it can be considered an Arabic although its speakers will insist
otherwise.

Mark

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:30:08 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
> On Nov 27, 2004, at 2:16 PM, medifel at altern.org wrote:
>
> > Algerian language, badly named "Arabic", Algerian Spoken, is the
> > language
> > of more than 20 millions persons. It's a mix of lot of languages like
> > arabic, turkish, french, spanish, berber etc.
>
> Western Colloquial Arabic is also spoken in Tunisia and Libya, and is
> basically part of the Arabic family of languages in its root and
> pattern grammar. The situation there and in many other nations is of
> "diglossia", where there is an official standard version of a language,
> in this case "Modern Standard Arabic", with colloquial use of a related
> language or dialect. The Romans during the empire had a similar
> situation, the written Latin being different from the spoken language.
> West Colloquial Arabic, sometimes called "spoken Arabic" has almost
> 30,000,000 speakers between all of its dialects.
>
> That being said, the differences between the dialects - between
> countries and between rural and urban variations - are quite large. The
> Algerian varieties of the language show the beginnings of creolization
> with French, including imports of grammar, phrasing and words that are
> integrated at every level of the language. These include code switching
> - that is, whole words or phrases lifted from French - down to the use
> of words which have been made more arabic in sound and morphology, that
> is "loan words", though I've always disliked that term because they
> aren't given back.
>
> > It's not exactly arabic, because gramatically it's totaly different.
> > Speakers of Algerian who don't know what we call "classical" arabic,
> > don't
> > understood arabic.
>
> That's not entirely true. when written Western Colloquial Arabic is
> closer to written arabic than it is when spoken. As is the case in many
> societies where literacy rates are low, the spoken forms diverge a
> great deal more than the written forms do.
>
> > Algerian language is the common language of every body in Algeria, but
> > since independance (1962), the Pan-arabism vision denied totaly the
> > existance of a specific algerian language, as it denied the existance
> > berber languages.
>
> Closer to 85%, with numerous smaller languages, including the Berber
> familiies, taking up the rest.
>
> > Algerian language was almost not written at all (no newspaper, no book)
> > but with the Internet we discovered that we coul wrote our own language
> > (using latin alphabet with some specific caracters for special sounds).
> > So we want to create an algerian Wikipedia to to persuade people that
> > we
> > can use our language as a normal one.
>
> There is writing in Western Colloquial Arabic using Arabic characters.
> There are also missionaries who use colloquial Arabic for their
> conversion work, and there is if I recall correctly, a translation of
> the Christian bible into the dialect. Most of the extent source
> material is in Arabic characters.
>
> -
>
> Here is where information starts to run out, and judgment enters in.
> While there is no standardized form of this language, there is a recent
> ethnological dictionary, and there are manuals for spoken courses.
> There is little to no publication in the language. The wikipedia would
> be, almost literally, the first standardized such project, and is,
> almost by definition, an attempt to construct a nationalistic language.
> We were talking about nynorsk and bokmal earlier, this would, in
> effect, be the same kind of project that created nynorsk as a stable
> linguistic set in the first place: taking a series of dialects which
> are separate from the "High" version of the language and giving them a
> standardize literature which acts as the synchronization point for the
> language. Western Colloquial Arabic is a "normal" language - it is
> based on dialects that have been spoken in North Africa for hundreds of
> years, and has millions of speakers that are majorities in three
> nations.
>
> However, the polities of each of these three nations are committed to a
> policy of diglossia, that is having a standard Arabic to be connected
> with all of the other major Arabic states. The writer referes to the
> "pan-arabist" version, which would correspond to the mandating of
> Modern Standard Arabic - a modernized version of classical Arabic - as
> the official language of government. This isn't to say "no", just to
> put forward that there is no government support for creation of WCA as
> a literate language.
>
> While people may know that I am an advocate of such projects - the
> creation or recreation of languages through the Romantic language
> process - I am not sure that wikimedia is in that line of work. The
> state of WCA is "normal" for a non-literate language group, that is an
> inter-related set of dialects which are mutually intelligible to
> various degrees with some written examples, but no communication zone
> which works within the language. An analogy would be Middle English
> around 1300: there are several dialects, no one of which is
> predominant, some literature, but little in the way of standardization.
> My instinct would be to ask for proof that the Language formation
> process has occured, or is occuring: that is that there is a community
> which is conscious of their dialect as an aspect of group identity and
> is willing to engage in the work to create a body of literature,
> scholarship and standardization that goes with having a literate
> language rather than a spoken dialect group. Examples of this would be
> a widely read author who uses the "vernacular", publication of
> newspapers or books in the language, the creation of associations for
> preservation and advancement of the language, broadcasting in the
> language by native speakers, web sites dedicated to content creation
> and so on. Basically, signs that people for reasons of their own, are
> using the spoken vernacular in a written form which is converging on a
> written dialect that is distinguishable from MSA.
>
> I don't know if people are looking for advice but here is mine:
>
> 1. This sounds an awful lot like node, or someone similar. First rule
> out trollship. I'm suspicious because the key feature of Spoken
> Algerian Arabic isn't spanish, it is French. And any speaker of WCA
> sufficiently with it to write to us would be reasonably fluent in
> French, which is both part of WCA and a widely used language in
> Algeria.
>
> 2. There isn't, to my knowledge, a groundswell for creating WCA as a
> written language. The person asking couldn't even like to one website
> which is devoted to making WCA a written language and unifying the
> dialects. This is a minimum: until there is activity, there is no
> "language" in the literate sense, there are dialects with written
> examples. Have the person proposing show support from some of these
> groups. This both indicates community, and it indicates good faith in
> the proposal: after all, a person genuinely wanting to advance such a
> cause would be happy to bring in as many groups as possible, where as a
> troll looking for a free play space to vandalize would not want others
> looking over his/her shoulder.
>
> 3. If (2) can be documented, create a wiktionary for it. If the
> wiktionary takes off, then that is good evidence for a language
> community that wants to have a written version of their spoken
> language, and is committed to creating it. If it is just one person
> documenting the language, that can be tested against published sources.
> If it is trollery, that can be seen fairly quickly.
>
> 4. If the wiktionary works, create a wikipedia.
>
> My two cents, YMMV.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipédia new language : Algerian

body:
(from the Ethnologue): "Eastern Algerian and Tunisian dialects are
close, and Western Algerian and Moroccan dialects are close, but
speakers prefer their own varieties."

What I think we should seek here are lexicostatistical percentages to
determine just how divergent the individual dialects are from one
another. I will ask Mustafaa.

Mark

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 00:46:25 +0100, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
> Le Saturday 27 November 2004 20:16, medifel at altern.org a ?crit :
> > Algerian language, badly named "Arabic", Algerian Spoken, is the language
> > of more than 20 millions persons. It's a mix of lot of languages like
> > arabic, turkish, french, spanish, berber etc.
> ...
> > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ARQ
>
> I welcome the creation of a Wikipedia in Algerian.
>
> Yann
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
> http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipédia new language :Algerian

body:
Le Saturday 27 November 2004 20:16, medifel at altern.org a ?crit :
> Algerian language, badly named "Arabic", Algerian Spoken, is the language
> of more than 20 millions persons. It's a mix of lot of languages like
> arabic, turkish, french, spanish, berber etc.
...
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ARQ

I?welcome the creation of a Wikipedia in Algerian.

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Corrupt old entries on eswiktionary

body:
A bunch of compressed old entries on es.wiktionary.org are corrupted.
For example, history entries on the Portada are corrupt from June 16
through August 11 and September 24 through October 25.

A spot-check of corrupt entries shows a byte pattern very reminiscent
of a text conversion from Latin-1 to UTF-8. I need to know when this
wiki was converted, and exactly what was done; are there prior backups?
Is the conversion reversible? Might we have the same problem on other
wikis?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Daniel P.B.Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
> From: R E Broadley <20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] user RickK - vote rigging
> Hi,
>
> Someone else spotted RickK up to no good, and referred to the following
> on his talk page:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
> title=Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_deletion%2FBlogsome&diff=7896162&oldid=7894
> 630
>
> The diff above is all by RickK in one edit, so I can't see how he can
> possibly claim he thought the vote was by an anonymous person.

Having reviewed the diff, I'm completely puzzled. I don't understand
what you think the problem is, and I don't understand how this is "vote
rigging."

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: who's afraid of stupid newbies?

body:
Robin Shannon wrote:
> Over at the wikien list a small flame war between PHP and perl,
> resulted in a bunch of people all saying that they would love to
> contribute to mediawiki development, however do not have the technical
> know-how to do so. And thus was born the idea of a group PHP tutorial
> with the aim of bringing people who dont know PHP up to a level where
> they can do menial coding, simple bug fixes etc. for mediawiki,
> freeing up time that the more skilled developers could use on
> something else, and hopefully (after the internship of doing easy
> stuff) become full blooded developers. So what they are looking for is
> someone who has a good knowledge of PHP to act as thier guide. <uncle
> sam voice> IS THAT PERSON YOU!?!?!?!?! </uncle sam voice>

Well yes, it probably is me, since I was responsible for starting that
flame war by declaring that people should learn PHP so that they can
contribute to MediaWiki. However, help would be appreciated, and if
someone else wants to organise it, that's fine by me. I'm going to be
fairly busy for the next week or so, so if no-one else steps forward,
this might have to progress slowly. If there were lots of developers
with lots of free time on their hands, my appeal would not have been so
desparate.

-- Tim Starling


body:
On Nov 27, 2004, at 10:19 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
> A bunch of compressed old entries on es.wiktionary.org are corrupted.
> For example, history entries on the Portada are corrupt from June 16
> through August 11 and September 24 through October 25.

It seems shaihulud converted this wiki from latin-1 to UTF-8 on
November 14. Some (but not all) old entries were compressed at the
time, and the compressed byte streams were damaged by the conversion
script. (This corrupt is not reversible, as there are four byte values
which get converted to the same sequence indicating an invalid
character.)

I've found the backup dump used to make the conversion and should be
able to recover all damaged entries from it. es.wiktionary.org is
locked to new edits temporarily; it should be back up within a few
hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Reinhardt Wiewe

subject: [Wikitech-l] preview and Unicode characters

body:
Dear friends,

I am using Mozilla Firefox and need to used Unicode characters. I have installed lots of fonts (some supporting Unicode).

Please look first at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gangleri/tests/Unicode_ISO_8859-1/Table_of_Unicode_characters%2C_128_to_999#how_do_you_like_this then edit the section and make a preview. The spaces between the characters are different in the preview and what is saved.

The page contains more anchors and sections
  a.. #char458
  b.. #char502
  c.. #char544
  d.. #char622
  e.. #char675
4.1 Note on character 458
4.2 Note on character 502
4.3 Note on character 544
6.1 Note on character 622
6.2 Note on character 675

You may experience the same behaviour there. It maight be that it is a random problem of the browser. Is there a way to avoid this?

Regards Reinhardt


subject: [Wikitech-l] subpages are case sensitive (first character)

body:
Dear friends,

Please take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gangleri/tests/links .

Please note that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gangleri/tests/Links (with capital "L") is another page in the namespace.

Questions:

a) what is your opinion about what normal users think about this (because the first character of a page in a namespace can be written both with upper and lower case)?

b) are any plans to change this?

c) if changes would be made there maight be conflicts with "subpages" existing already (both starting with a capital and a lower case letter).

Regards Reinhardt


body:
On Nov 27, 2004, at 11:49 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
> I've found the backup dump used to make the conversion and should be
> able to recover all damaged entries from it. es.wiktionary.org is
> locked to new edits temporarily; it should be back up within a few
> hours.

Done; es.wiktionary.org is back online for editing.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Heli Retzek

subject: [Wikitech-l] odd 10.000 char-size - problem

body:
dear friends, I encountered a funny problem.

Wehn one of my wikimedia-pages becomes bigger than 10.000 chars, then it is
not saved, the entire Text is lost and another edit-try delivers just empty
page.

when I try to restore a previous version and that exceeds 10.000 chars, it
happens again.

What did I do

1. I changed my Website-Provider

2. I updatefrom Wikimedia 1.37 to 1.38

So, I installed on my new Provider the 1,38 Version of Wikimedia, then
exported all files from my old providers DB and entered the SQL-Export in
the DB of my new Provider

Some pages from my old provider exceeded already 10.000 chars, when I then
edited them in the 1,38 Wikimedia on my new host I coult retrieve the page,
could edit it, but when I saved it, I got a empty page.

Anyone has encountered that problem, some PHP-Install Problem, some
Wikimedia-Install Problem??? I didnt find anything in google about that.

tx for help

HeliR


body:
Brion wrote
> E-mail functions are not always available on a given server (or may be
> available but non-functional), and in general open e-mail can be
> abused. Being able to disable all e-mail functions on the wiki prevents
>false presentation of unusable features, and disabling of user-to-user
> e-mail could cut down on abuse (for instance as a spam relay).

To summarise:
As written on the IRC, we have now ( Brion_and_Tom together ) the
following variables in DefaultSettings.php
(1) $wgEnableMail
(2) $wgEnableEmailUser
(3) $wgEmailnotificationForUserTalkPages
(4) $wgEmailnotificationForAllPages
(5) $wgEmailnotificationForMinorChanges

The switches 1 to 2 are general switches, the switches 3 to 5 are used
to determine the behaviour for the Email Notification for Page Changes,
this patch scheduled for publication on 30.11.2004
See http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454 and
http://meta.wikipedia.org/Enotif


from_name: Harry Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom Overstepping

body:
This does not appear to the be only case of POV
censoring by ArbCom
see the WP:RFAR vs Lance6Wins.

The Daniel Pipes POV is also censored.

Lance6Wins

--- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I'm seriously concerned about a recent arbcom
> enforcement. A ban was
> ordered against [[User:C Colden]] as per the ruling
> in the case of
> Lyndon LaRouche.
>
> C Colden was not a Wikipedia user when the LaRouche
> ruling was made. He
> was not a party to that case. However, the ruling of
> the case,
> apparently, was a ruling against the insertion of
> "original research
> originating with the LaRouche movement" (Which seems
> to be an
> interchangable phrase with "the LaRouche point of
> view") into any
> article by any user.
>
> This seems to me to reflect a hard arbcom ruling
> that the LaRouche POV
> is not something that need be included under the
> Wikipedia NPOV policy.
> As loathesome as I find the LaRouche movement to be,
> I am seriously
> troubled by the notion that the arbcom can and will
> make blanket
> rulings that certain perspectives are not part of
> NPOV.
>
> -Snowspinner
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom Overstepping

body:
And if that ruling is applied to each person who
inserts "Daniel Pipes POV" ?  Then is it not
censorship ?

Why should the restiction on "Daniel Pipes POV" be
applied to only one person ?

--- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> No, your right to insert the Daniel Pipes POV is
> removed. That ruling
> makes no attempt to affect the right of other users
> to address Pipes's
> viewpoints. Just you.
>
> -Snowspinner
>
> On Nov 28, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Harry Smith wrote:
>
> > This does not appear to the be only case of POV
> > censoring by ArbCom
> > see the WP:RFAR vs Lance6Wins.
> >
> > The Daniel Pipes POV is also censored.
> >
> > Lance6Wins
> >
> >
> > --- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm seriously concerned about a recent arbcom
> >> enforcement. A ban was
> >> ordered against [[User:C Colden]] as per the
> ruling
> >> in the case of
> >> Lyndon LaRouche.
> >>
> >> C Colden was not a Wikipedia user when the
> LaRouche
> >> ruling was made. He
> >> was not a party to that case. However, the ruling
> of
> >> the case,
> >> apparently, was a ruling against the insertion of
> >> "original research
> >> originating with the LaRouche movement" (Which
> seems
> >> to be an
> >> interchangable phrase with "the LaRouche point of
> >> view") into any
> >> article by any user.
> >>
> >> This seems to me to reflect a hard arbcom ruling
> >> that the LaRouche POV
> >> is not something that need be included under the
> >> Wikipedia NPOV policy.
> >> As loathesome as I find the LaRouche movement to
> be,
> >> I am seriously
> >> troubled by the notion that the arbcom can and
> will
> >> make blanket
> >> rulings that certain perspectives are not part of
> >> NPOV.
> >>
> >> -Snowspinner
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom Overstepping

body:
Could you provide an/couple example(s) please ?

--- "James D. Forrester" <james at jdforrester.org>
wrote:

> On Sunday, November 28, 2004 5:48 PM, Phil Sandifer
> <sandifer at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 28, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Harry Smith wrote:
> >
> > > This does not appear to the be only case of POV
> censoring by ArbCom
> > > see the WP:RFAR vs Lance6Wins.
> > >
> > > The Daniel Pipes POV is also censored.
> > >
> > > Lance6Wins
> >
> > No, your right to insert the Daniel Pipes POV is
> removed.
> > That ruling makes no attempt to affect the right
> of other
> > users to address Pipes's viewpoints. Just you.
> >
> > -Snowspinner
>
> IIRC, the wording of that was slightly unclear; it
> was not what seemed be
> Lance6Wins's personal POV, which we noted was very
> similar to that Daniel
> Pipes's, that was the problem, but that he was
> apparently unable to prevent
> himself from inserting it in a non-NPOV manner in
> said articles.
>
> [Snip]
>
> Yours,
> --
> James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia:
> [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]
>
> Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org |
> csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
> IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
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list: foundation-l

from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Foundation-l] Problem in the Yiddish Wikipedia

body:
I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles
in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I
know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings
of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has
decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter
if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of
which he deleted by the way).

To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let
the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from
non-speakers.

Danny


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Problem in the Yiddish Wikipedia


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
Well, I'm not the only one who understood, the person who left the
original comment in his talk page
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:RickK&oldid=7921955#Teehee]
said "I don't know if you realised, but at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion>, you cut
User:Vague Rant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vague_Rant>'s comment
in half and declared that the first half of his comment was by an anon
and was therefore not counted".

Daniel P.B.Smith wrote:

>> From: R E Broadley <20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk>
>> Subject: [WikiEN-l] user RickK - vote rigging
>> Hi,
>>
>> Someone else spotted RickK up to no good, and referred to the following
>> on his talk page:-
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
>> title=Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_deletion%2FBlogsome&diff=7896162&oldid=7894
>> 630
>>
>> The diff above is all by RickK in one edit, so I can't see how he can
>> possibly claim he thought the vote was by an anonymous person.
>
>
> Having reviewed the diff, I'm completely puzzled. I don't understand
> what you think the problem is, and I don't understand how this is
> "vote  rigging."
>
> --
> Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
> "Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
> Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
> Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Dealing with corporate propagandists

body:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004, Sean Barrett wrote:

> Mark Pellegrini stated for the record:
>
> > what is to stop them from starting large, organized astroturfing on
> > Wikipedia?
> >
> >
> > I think it would be a good idea to having some contigency plans in place
> > should that happen.
>
>  From the back of the bottle of contingency plans: "Revert, ban, repeat."
>
Based on what I know of manipulating public perception, & the challenges of
the Internet, I think we ought to look at our accumulated experience with
another group: Scientology, & the related Wikipedia articles.

I have stayed away from this topic, except for the occasional peak & the
minor edit or two (I find typos & bad grammar in other people's writings
far quicker than in my own). However, to my knowledge none of the
Scientology-related articles have turned into the no-man's land that some
of our fiercely disputed articles have become.

I believe David Gerard has been monitoring the Scientology-related articles;
perhaps David could offer some ideas of how to deal with possible
astroturfing -- whether initiated by Microsoft or another corporation --
based on his experience.

Geoff


body:
I knew what the articles said just as much as you did.

A page that says "_______ is a brother of [[________]]" and have the
other article just link back, in addition to using incorrect
orthography, is not even on the level of a stub, as is the case with
an article simply saying "a singer".

Mark

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles
> in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I
> know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings
> of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has
> decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter
> if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of
> which he deleted by the way).
>
> To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let
> the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from
> non-speakers.
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
In addition, I have involved Refoyl Finkl, a native speaker and
computer scientist.

I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me
interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to
let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock
inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally.

Mark

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles
> in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I
> know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings
> of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has
> decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter
> if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of
> which he deleted by the way).
>
> To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let
> the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from
> non-speakers.
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom Overstepping

body:
Because of tenditious point of view editing and edit warring.

Fred

> From: Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 09:56:56 -0800 (PST)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom Overstepping
>
> And if that ruling is applied to each person who
> inserts "Daniel Pipes POV" ?  Then is it not
> censorship ?
>
> Why should the restiction on "Daniel Pipes POV" be
> applied to only one person ?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom Overstepping

body:
No, your right to insert the Daniel Pipes POV is removed. That ruling
makes no attempt to affect the right of other users to address Pipes's
viewpoints. Just you.

-Snowspinner

On Nov 28, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Harry Smith wrote:

> This does not appear to the be only case of POV
> censoring by ArbCom
> see the WP:RFAR vs Lance6Wins.
>
> The Daniel Pipes POV is also censored.
>
> Lance6Wins
>
>
> --- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm seriously concerned about a recent arbcom
>> enforcement. A ban was
>> ordered against [[User:C Colden]] as per the ruling
>> in the case of
>> Lyndon LaRouche.
>>
>> C Colden was not a Wikipedia user when the LaRouche
>> ruling was made. He
>> was not a party to that case. However, the ruling of
>> the case,
>> apparently, was a ruling against the insertion of
>> "original research
>> originating with the LaRouche movement" (Which seems
>> to be an
>> interchangable phrase with "the LaRouche point of
>> view") into any
>> article by any user.
>>
>> This seems to me to reflect a hard arbcom ruling
>> that the LaRouche POV
>> is not something that need be included under the
>> Wikipedia NPOV policy.
>> As loathesome as I find the LaRouche movement to be,
>> I am seriously
>> troubled by the notion that the arbcom can and will
>> make blanket
>> rulings that certain perspectives are not part of
>> NPOV.
>>
>> -Snowspinner
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Joe M

subject: [WikiEN-l] JoeM hard-ban

body:
I am ready to put aside comments that many users regard as offensive and start editing in a neutral manner. I want to use this post on the mailing list to apologize to all the users I have offended so far. I hope that I can strike up a positive discussion on the mailing list that can lead to the lifting of my hard ban.

-User:JoeM
FREEDOM SHALL BE DEFENDED

---------------------------------
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 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
Go find something worthwhile to do.  You are a pest.  Like a gnat or a yappy little dog.

RickK

R E Broadley <20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Rebecca,

I apologise for misrepresenting your post by not including the topic
title. It was not my intention to misrepresent it, and if this was an
honest mistake by RickK, than I apologise to RickK also. It might not be
reckless editing, but I still consider it to be editing without due care
and attention, of which I've spotted a lot of these from him recently.
If it were driving, he'd have lost his license by now.

Ed

Rebecca wrote:

>Please. If you're trying to make this out as something nasty on the
>part of Rick, you're barking up the wrong tree.
>
>It was a funny error, which is why the section on Rick's talk page was
>entitled "Teehee".
>
>I suggest you actually read the edit before suggesting that it has
>malicious intent and misrepresenting my post.
>
>-- ambi
>
>
>On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:30:51 +0000, R E Broadley
><20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, I'm not the only one who understood, the person who left the
>>original comment in his talk page
>>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:RickK&oldid=7921955#Teehee]
>>said "I don't know if you realised, but at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion
>>, you cut
>>User:Vague Rant 's comment
>>in half and declared that the first half of his comment was by an anon
>>and was therefore not counted".
>>
>>
>>
>>Daniel P.B.Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>From: R E Broadley <20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk>
>>>>Subject: [WikiEN-l] user RickK - vote rigging
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>Someone else spotted RickK up to no good, and referred to the following
>>>>on his talk page:-
>>>>
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
>>>>title=Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_deletion%2FBlogsome&diff=7896162&oldid=7894
>>>>630
>>>>
>>>>The diff above is all by RickK in one edit, so I can't see how he can
>>>>possibly claim he thought the vote was by an anonymous person.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Having reviewed the diff, I'm completely puzzled. I don't understand
>>>what you think the problem is, and I don't understand how this is
>>>"vote rigging."
>>>
>>>--
>>>Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
>>>"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
>>>Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
>>>Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
And I love you, too.

RickK

Pete/Pcb21 <pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com> wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
> Please. If you're trying to make this out as something nasty on the
> part of Rick, you're barking up the wrong tree.
>
> It was a funny error, which is why the section on Rick's talk page was
> entitled "Teehee".
>
> I suggest you actually read the edit before suggesting that it has
> malicious intent and misrepresenting my post.

I agree that it was extremely unlikely to have been an attempt at
deliberate deception on RickK's part.

However it is a mistake that only a user like Rick - one who goes round
assuming bad faith, equating anons with vandals, making threats to ban
people on no authority other than his own, "editing" articles at a
super-high rate by slapping metadata tags other them instead of actually
fixing the wikitax etc etc - is likely to make.

Pete

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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 All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!


from_name: Stirling Newberry

body:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> In addition, I have involved Refoyl Finkl, a native speaker and
> computer scientist.
>
> I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me
> interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to
> let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock
> inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally.
>
> Mark
>

Your accusations are out of line Mr. Williamson. You owe the list an
apology.


body:
What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell
me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which
ones?

Mark

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:51:46 +0800, John Lee <johnleemk at gawab.com> wrote:
> Agreed. Very out of line.
>
> John Lee
> ([[en:User:Johnleemk]])
>
>
>
> Stirling Newberry wrote:
>
> >
> > On Nov 28, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> >
> >> In addition, I have involved Refoyl Finkl, a native speaker and
> >> computer scientist.
> >>
> >> I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me
> >> interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to
> >> let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock
> >> inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >
> > Your accusations are out of line Mr. Williamson. You owe the list an
> > apology.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back
it up with evidence?

Mark

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:50:38 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
> On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> > What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell
> > me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which
> > ones?
> >
> > Mark
>
> If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should
> think more before writing it.
>
>


body:
If you're not willing to substantiate a claim with evidence, but
rather prefer to make it and then try to get out of it later by
telling me to stop wasting your time, it's probably better if you
don't do it in the first place.

Mark

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:02:07 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
> On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:54 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> > So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back
> > it up with evidence?
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
> Stop trying to waste my time.
>
>


body:
Hey hey hey, I'm Jewish too! Does that count for anything?

Mark

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:03:10 +0000, Ingrid Mazeltov
<ingridmazeltov at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know
> >which
> >ones?
>
> You criticised someone Jewish, Mark, and for that hubris you'll pay.
>
> ~Ingrid
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Dori

body:
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles
> in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I
> know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings
> of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has
> decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter
> if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of
> which he deleted by the way).
>
> To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let
> the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from
> non-speakers.
>
> Danny

That is strange considering that a while back Node thought it useful
to create some sub-stub articles with the wrong grammar and language
on sq (e.g.: http://sq.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Shqip%C3%ABria
which in English would be "Albania is place")

--
[[en:User:Dori]]


from_name: Petr Kadlec

subject: [Wikitech-l] Non-ASCII characters in interwiki links, URLs, etc.

body:
Hi all!

It seems to me that handling of non-ASCII characters in interwiki
links (or in URLs in general) is a bit problematic. As an example,
take [[en:V?clav Havel]]. Since en: does not use UTF-8, the URL is
".../V%E1clav_Havel". If you try to use the interwiki link to cs:
(specified in the source as [[cs:V?clav Havel]]), it leads to
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%E1clav_Havel, which is _wrong_, because
the cs: Wikipedia uses UTF-8 and the proper link should be
".../V%C3%A1clav_Havel". And, vice versa, the Czech article contains
an interwiki link (specified again as [[en:V?clav Havel]]) leads to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1clav_Havel, which is, again,
wrong.

I believe that a correct solution (apart from the long-term solution
of using UTF-8 everywhere) could be:
* Accept UTF-8 in URLs on en: (but how could they be recognized??)
* Interwiki linking should use UTF-8 even on en: (or, does another
Wikipedia except en: use latin-1?)

Best regards,
[[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]


body:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell
> me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which
> ones?
>
> Mark

If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should
think more before writing it.


body:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:54 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back
> it up with evidence?
>
> Mark
>

Stop trying to waste my time.


body:
On Nov 28, 2004, at 6:32 AM, Petr Kadlec wrote:
> It seems to me that handling of non-ASCII characters in interwiki
> links (or in URLs in general) is a bit problematic. As an example,
> take [[en:V?clav Havel]]. Since en: does not use UTF-8, the URL is
> ".../V%E1clav_Havel". If you try to use the interwiki link to cs:
> (specified in the source as [[cs:V?clav Havel]]), it leads to
> http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%E1clav_Havel, which is _wrong_, because
> the cs: Wikipedia uses UTF-8 and the proper link should be
> ".../V%C3%A1clav_Havel".

It detects the encoding on the incoming link and redirects
transparently. Where's the problem?

>  And, vice versa, the Czech article contains
> an interwiki link (specified again as [[en:V?clav Havel]]) leads to
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1clav_Havel, which is, again,
> wrong.

It detects the encoding on the incoming link and redirects
transparently. Where's the problem?

> I believe that a correct solution (apart from the long-term solution
> of using UTF-8 everywhere) could be:
> * Accept UTF-8 in URLs on en: (but how could they be recognized??)

We already do, see above.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] [Fwd: Patch for mediawiki (img_auth.php)]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
So what is your opinion of a newbie running to the mailing list and tattling for every thing I do, even when I explain to him what my reasons were and he doesn't come back with another discussion, but instead institues an RfC on me after supposedly having been around for maybe three or four days?  Sounds like somebody who knows his way around Wikipedia a little too well for a newbie.

RickK

Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
Trolls seek to fire up people on some ruse, to get them to overreact
and make complete asses of themselves in public.

I don't know if Ed is a troll (and I'm not saying he is; it seems
progressively unlikely to me that he is).

Lemme however assume for a sec that RIck is right and that Ed is a
troll:
What Rick is doing is STILL remarkably unwise, because he's getting
EXACTLY where a troll would want him to be.
Besides, insulting (ie. wronging) a perceived or actual bad guy doesn't
improve anything or anybody.

Now assuming that Ed is not a troll:
What Rick is doing is de-test-a-ble, because Rick is Assuming Bad Faith.
No matter how strongly Rick may believe in his assessment of Ed:
Strength of conviction is no substitute for sensible reasoning and due
process.

As a Wikipedian (even as a pretty dormant one), I expressly disapprove
of this.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
www.ropersonline.com

On 28 Nov 2004, at 21:41, Rick wrote:

> Go find something worthwhile to do. You are a pest. Like a gnat or a
> yappy little dog.
>
> RickK
>
> R E Broadley <20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Rebecca,
>
> I apologise for misrepresenting your post by not including the topic
> title. It was not my intention to misrepresent it, and if this was an
> honest mistake by RickK, than I apologise to RickK also. It might not
> be
> reckless editing, but I still consider it to be editing without due
> care
> and attention, of which I've spotted a lot of these from him recently.
> If it were driving, he'd have lost his license by now.
>
> Ed

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


from_name: R E Broadley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
Rebecca,

I apologise for misrepresenting your post by not including the topic
title. It was not my intention to misrepresent it, and if this was an
honest mistake by RickK, than I apologise to RickK also. It might not be
reckless editing, but I still consider it to be editing without due care
and attention, of which I've spotted a lot of these from him recently.
If it were driving, he'd have lost his license by now.

Ed

Rebecca wrote:

>Please. If you're trying to make this out as something nasty on the
>part of Rick, you're barking up the wrong tree.
>
>It was a funny error, which is why the section on Rick's talk page was
>entitled "Teehee".
>
>I suggest you actually read the edit before suggesting that it has
>malicious intent and misrepresenting my post.
>
>-- ambi
>
>
>On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:30:51 +0000, R E Broadley
><20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, I'm not the only one who understood, the person who left the
>>original comment in his talk page
>>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:RickK&oldid=7921955#Teehee]
>>said "I don't know if you realised, but at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion>, you cut
>>User:Vague Rant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vague_Rant>'s comment
>>in half and declared that the first half of his comment was by an anon
>>and was therefore not counted".
>>
>>
>>
>>Daniel P.B.Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>From: R E Broadley <20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk>
>>>>Subject: [WikiEN-l] user RickK - vote rigging
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>Someone else spotted RickK up to no good, and referred to the following
>>>>on his talk page:-
>>>>
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
>>>>title=Wikipedia%3AVotes_for_deletion%2FBlogsome&diff=7896162&oldid=7894
>>>>630
>>>>
>>>>The diff above is all by RickK in one edit, so I can't see how he can
>>>>possibly claim he thought the vote was by an anonymous person.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Having reviewed the diff, I'm completely puzzled. I don't understand
>>>what you think the problem is, and I don't understand how this is
>>>"vote  rigging."
>>>
>>>--
>>>Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
>>>"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
>>>Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
>>>Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
Rebecca wrote:
> Please. If you're trying to make this out as something nasty on the
> part of Rick, you're barking up the wrong tree.
>
> It was a funny error, which is why the section on Rick's talk page was
> entitled "Teehee".
>
> I suggest you actually read the edit before suggesting that it has
> malicious intent and misrepresenting my post.

I agree that it was extremely unlikely to have been an attempt at
deliberate deception on RickK's part.

However it is a mistake that only a user like Rick - one who goes round
assuming bad faith, equating anons with vandals, making threats to ban
people on no authority other than his own, "editing" articles at a
super-high rate by slapping metadata tags other them instead of actually
fixing the wikitax etc etc - is likely to make.

Pete


from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom Overstepping

body:
On Sunday, November 28, 2004 5:48 PM, Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

> On Nov 28, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Harry Smith wrote:
>
> > This does not appear to the be only case of POV censoring by ArbCom
> > see the WP:RFAR vs Lance6Wins.
> >
> > The Daniel Pipes POV is also censored.
> >
> > Lance6Wins
>
> No, your right to insert the Daniel Pipes POV is removed.
> That ruling makes no attempt to affect the right of other
> users to address Pipes's viewpoints. Just you.
>
> -Snowspinner

IIRC, the wording of that was slightly unclear; it was not what seemed be
Lance6Wins's personal POV, which we noted was very similar to that Daniel
Pipes's, that was the problem, but that he was apparently unable to prevent
himself from inserting it in a non-NPOV manner in said articles.

[Snip]

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
The edits in question:

Blanked ????????? ("America"; contents were: ? [[?????????]] "A [[continent]]")
Replaced contents of ?' ???? ??? ??????? ("Reh Zusha fun Lyzensky")
with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: ? ?????? ??? [[?' ?????? ???
???????]] "A brother of [[Reh Alymlk fun Lyzensky]]")
Replaced contents of ?' ?????? ??? ??????? ("Reh Alymlk fun Lyzensky")
with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: ? ?????? ??? [[?' ???? ???
???????]]. "A brother of [[Reh Zusha fun Lyzensky]]")
Replaced contents of ?????? ?????? ("Britney Spears") with
"{{delete}}" (Contents were: ? ???????? ???????? "A popular singer")

Note, however, that I left untouched contributions by the same user at
around the same time of actual value, such as
http://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%A2%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9C_%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%9F

When my contributions were reverted by the user who wrote these
articles, I did not engage in any sort of revert war.

I discussed these actions with Jamesday prior to Angela's granting
Danny sysophood on a Wikipedia for a language he does not know.

When I respectfully (note the respectfully) requested that Danny
remove the contents of http://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Node_ue which
he posted, he said he would when I apologised to Acheir for replacing
those pages with delete messages.

When I told him I'd actually already apologised and am now engaged in
discussions with this user, he told me that that was too bad because
he had not contacted the user and that, "since i dont intend to" (he),
"you are kinda stuck".

Mark

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles
> in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I
> know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings
> of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has
> decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter
> if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of
> which he deleted by the way).
>
> To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let
> the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from
> non-speakers.
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Sorry for the two messages in a row, but I sent the first accidentally.

Thus, I request that I be unbanned from yi.wikipedia immediately.

I would also like to request that Danny be desysopped given the following facts:

1. He has acted irresponsibly as a sysop. I made 5 edits which were
reverted, on a Wikipedia where I have cursory knowledge of the
language and can understand the written form (after all, it is a
heritage language for me), and did not revert the reversions of my
edits. Late the next day - THE NEXT DAY - Danny requested sysophood
because there was an "emergency". Although there was an ongoing
discussion on the ML and I had not shown myself to be a threat to
yi.wikipedia (ie, I did not continuously revert pages), he banned me
from the Yiddish Wikipedia permanently.

2. He vandalised my userpage. Perhaps he should be banned from the Tok
Pisin Wikipedia, on which he has recently been lurking, since he does
not speak Tok Pisin (nor does he claim to)? Unlike him and Tok Pisin,
I can read Yiddish and have basic speaking and writing abilities
because of actual exposure to the language when I was young. When I
requested he remove the text, he denied that request - and in quite a
mean-spirited manner.

3. I have until now cleaned up all spam and vandalism on yi.wikipedia,
and have not needed sysop status. If further problems of any nature
occur in the future, somebody can be sysopped to take care of them. In
addition, I have made minor original contributions to yi.wikipedia.

Mark

P.S.

Dori, you were free and still are to delete or fix those stubs. They
were, at least, full sentences, and there were no closed loops. You
expressed somewhat begrudging approval for my actions (you said
something along the lines of allowing them at least in small
quantities because they might encourage contributions; thus it was not
support but you did not tell me to stop). While I don't have a problem
with you not wanting to write new content or expand articles on
sq.wikipedia (it can indeed be a chore when the Wikipedia is small), I
think that if these grammatical errors and stubs irritate you so much,
it is up to you to fix them or delete them (it's not like I am still
making them, or like there are tons).

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:31:28 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> The edits in question:
>
> Blanked ????????? ("America"; contents were: ? [[?????????]] "A [[continent]]")
> Replaced contents of ?' ???? ??? ??????? ("Reh Zusha fun Lyzensky")
> with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: ? ?????? ??? [[?' ?????? ???
> ???????]] "A brother of [[Reh Alymlk fun Lyzensky]]")
> Replaced contents of ?' ?????? ??? ??????? ("Reh Alymlk fun Lyzensky")
> with "{{delete}}" (Contents were: ? ?????? ??? [[?' ???? ???
> ???????]]. "A brother of [[Reh Zusha fun Lyzensky]]")
> Replaced contents of ?????? ?????? ("Britney Spears") with
> "{{delete}}" (Contents were: ? ???????? ???????? "A popular singer")
>
> Note, however, that I left untouched contributions by the same user at
> around the same time of actual value, such as
> http://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%A2%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9C_%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%9F
>
> When my contributions were reverted by the user who wrote these
> articles, I did not engage in any sort of revert war.
>
> I discussed these actions with Jamesday prior to Angela's granting
> Danny sysophood on a Wikipedia for a language he does not know.
>
> When I respectfully (note the respectfully) requested that Danny
> remove the contents of http://yi.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Node_ue which
> he posted, he said he would when I apologised to Acheir for replacing
> those pages with delete messages.
>
> When I told him I'd actually already apologised and am now engaged in
> discussions with this user, he told me that that was too bad because
> he had not contacted the user and that, "since i dont intend to" (he),
> "you are kinda stuck".
>
>
>
> Mark
>
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:12:07 EST, daniwo59 at aol.com <daniwo59 at aol.com> wrote:
> > I am very sad that I have to report this, but Node is deleting stub articles
> > in the Yiddish wikipedia. This happens to be a language that I can read, so I
> > know what the text says. Yes, they are stubbish, but they are the beginnings
> > of articles, and at least there is some activity. I do not know why Node has
> > decided to delete those articles, as there is no explanation. It doesnt matter
> > if it is a stub about Reb Elimelech of Lizensk or Brittaney Spears (both of
> > which he deleted by the way).
> >
> > To Node, I am asking you to stop dealing with languages you do not know. Let
> > the smaller language Wikipedias grow naturally, without interference from
> > non-speakers.
> >
> > Danny
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


from_name: Daniel P.B.Smith

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: RickK: How do you get from a mistake to "up to no
	good" and "vote rigging?"

body:
>
> Well, I'm not the only one who understood, the person who left the
> original comment in his talk page
> [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:
> RickK&oldid=7921955#Teehee]
> said "I don't know if you realised, but at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion>, you cut
> User:Vague Rant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vague_Rant>'s
> comment
> in half and declared that the first half of his comment was by an anon
> and was therefore not counted".

So, you're saying he made a careless mistake? That's the big deal?

Comments like RickK's are advisory to whatever sysop acts on the VfD.
Unless he actions the item himself he doesn't control what votes "are
counted." Secondly, if you advise a sysop to disregard half of a
comment, even if the sysop accepts all of RickK's recommendations
uncritically, that isn't going to affect the vote, is it? Third, VfD
discussions are based on consensus, which means that exact vote counts
are not supposed to be and usually are not important. It's not like
we're talking about hanging chads. And, finally, the reason VfD
discussions last for as long as they do is so that mistakes can be
corrected.

How do you get from point A), an arguably careless mistake which _even
if accepted uncritically by the acting sysop_ would not have affected
the vote count, which isn't very important anyway, to point B), "up to
no good" and "vote rigging?"

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
Thank you. Glad I'm not the only one to have noticed this!

Pete/Pcb21 wrote:

>
> However it is a mistake that only a user like Rick - one who goes
> round assuming bad faith, equating anons with vandals, making threats
> to ban people on no authority other than his own, "editing" articles
> at a super-high rate by slapping metadata tags other them instead of
> actually fixing the wikitax etc etc - is likely to make.
>
> Pete


subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbcom Overstepping

body:
That's what I wondered, although I'm sure it will be made clear soon.

Harry Smith wrote:

>And if that ruling is applied to each person who
>inserts "Daniel Pipes POV" ?  Then is it not
>censorship ?
>
>Why should the restiction on "Daniel Pipes POV" be
>applied to only one person ?
>
>--- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>No, your right to insert the Daniel Pipes POV is
>>removed. That ruling
>>makes no attempt to affect the right of other users
>>to address Pipes's
>>viewpoints. Just you.
>>
>>


from_name: Rob Hooft

body:
Petr Kadlec wrote:
> I believe that a correct solution (apart from the long-term solution
> of using UTF-8 everywhere) could be:
> * Accept UTF-8 in URLs on en: (but how could they be recognized??)
> * Interwiki linking should use UTF-8 even on en: (or, does another
> Wikipedia except en: use latin-1?)

Last question: yes there are a few. For those wiki's that are now UTF-8
but were ISO-8859-1 before, the 8859-1 %XX code is also still accepted.

Indeed it is better to avoid the %XX codes in interwiki links. A
reasonably good alternative is formed by using &; and &#; entities.
Those are independent of the encoding. The pywikipediabot will take this
route for all links that can not be expressed natively, and the
interwiki bot will automatically convert all %XX links automatically
upon passing (but only if other updates are needed to the page).

Regards,

Rob Hooft

--
Rob W.W. Hooft  ||  rob at hooft.net  ||  http://www.hooft.net/people/rob/


from_name: Rebecca

body:
You'll be surprised at just what a functioning Arbitration Committee
can achieve. :)

-- ambi

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 18:12:57 -0800, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> Mark Pellegrini stated for the record:
>
> > what is to stop them from starting large, organized astroturfing on
> > Wikipedia?
> >
> >
> > I think it would be a good idea to having some contigency plans in place
> > should that happen.
>
>  From the back of the bottle of contingency plans: "Revert, ban, repeat."
>
> --
>   Sean Barrett     | Four parts ammonia, one part iodine crystals.
>   sean at epoptic.com |
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Ahh. Well, I don't see how exactly that is an accusation or what is
wrong with it. Danny *has* supported such proposals. That is a fact,
not an accusation. And locking a Wikipedia is obviously not letting it
grow naturally, you can't edit it if it were locked.

And this is no different from me blanking vandalism on other small
Wikipedias. These articles are so short, not even substubs, not even
complete sentences, that they are basically nothing more than
vandalism.

I do support minority language Wikipedias, but this does not mean I
support vandalism and other such things, for example the recent events
at ch.wikipedia (Chamorro), which are probably just about as bad this,
with the difference that I don't speak Chamorro more than a couple of
words, and my ability to understand it beyond Spanish loanwords is
nil.

Mark

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:02:47 +0100, Lars Alvik <lars at slappfisk.net> wrote:
> "I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me
> interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to
> let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock
> inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally."
>
> I belive this is what's previously refered to. And i might add that i
> think it's a little bit strange that you are deleting articles on
> minority wikis when you are such a advocate of them.
>
> mvh.
>
> Lars Alvik
>
> P? 28. nov. 2004 kl. 21.54 skrev Mark Williamson:
>
>
>
> > So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back
> > it up with evidence?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:50:38 -0500, Stirling Newberry
> > <stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>
> >>> What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell
> >>> me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which
> >>> ones?
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>
> >> If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should
> >> think more before writing it.
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Ingrid Mazeltov

body:
>If you tell me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know
>which
>ones?

You criticised someone Jewish, Mark, and for that hubris you'll pay.

~Ingrid

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/


from_name: Lars Alvik

body:
"I think it's very interesting that you are so upset about me
interfering in Wikipedias in languages I do not know and asking me to
let them grow naturally when you yourself support proposals to lock
inactive Wikipedias, far from letting them grow naturally."

I belive this is what's previously refered to. And i might add that i
think it's a little bit strange that you are deleting articles on
minority wikis when you are such a advocate of them.

mvh.

Lars Alvik

P? 28. nov. 2004 kl. 21.54 skrev Mark Williamson:

> So you are accusing me of something, but then are not willing to back
> it up with evidence?
>
> Mark
>
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:50:38 -0500, Stirling Newberry
> <stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Mark Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> What accusations are you talking about, exactly, anyways? If you tell
>>> me accusations are out of line, can you at least let me know which
>>> ones?
>>>
>>> Mark
>>
>> If you aren't capable of understanding what you write, then you should
>> think more before writing it.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Rowan Collins

body:
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:37:21 +0100, Rob Hooft <rob at hooft.net> wrote:
> Petr Kadlec wrote:
> Indeed it is better to avoid the %XX codes in interwiki links. A
> reasonably good alternative is formed by using &; and &#; entities.
> Those are independent of the encoding. The pywikipediabot will take this
> route for all links that can not be expressed natively, and the
> interwiki bot will automatically convert all %XX links automatically
> upon passing (but only if other updates are needed to the page).

Yes, this is sensible, but it doesn't avoid the problem described here
- the actual *URL* will still include one encoding or the other,
however cunningly the wiki-code is constructed. Neither
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Václav_Havel nor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Václav_Havel is an existing page,
since HTML escaping doesn't belong in a URL.  [Amusingly, if you click
"article", it takes you to the right page, since the "&" hasn't been
further escaped in the HTML]

OTOH, I can't actually get that particular example to break anyway :I
can happily click the interwiki links between cs.wp and en.wp and the
URL gets re-encoded back and forth just fine. I guess someone fixed it
already. ?

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: RickK ?????

body:
Trolls seek to fire up people on some ruse, to get them to overreact
and make complete asses of themselves in public.

I don't know if Ed is a troll (and I'm not saying he is; it seems
progressively unlikely to me that he is).

Lemme however assume for a sec that RIck is right and that Ed is a
troll:
What Rick is doing is STILL remarkably unwise, because he's getting
EXACTLY where a troll would want him to be.
Besides, insulting (ie. wronging) a perceived or actual bad guy doesn't
improve anything or anybody.

Now assuming that Ed is not a troll:
What Rick is doing is de-test-a-ble, because Rick is Assuming Bad Faith.
No matter how strongly Rick may believe in his assessment of Ed:
Strength of conviction is no substitute for sensible reasoning and due
process.

As a Wikipedian (even as a pretty dormant one), I expressly disapprove
of this.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

On 28 Nov 2004, at 21:41, Rick wrote:

> Go find something worthwhile to do.  You are a pest.  Like a gnat or a
> yappy little dog.
>
> RickK
>
> R E Broadley <20041111 at stardate.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Rebecca,
>
> I apologise for misrepresenting your post by not including the topic
> title. It was not my intention to misrepresent it, and if this was an
> honest mistake by RickK, than I apologise to RickK also. It might not
> be
> reckless editing, but I still consider it to be editing without due
> care
> and attention, of which I've spotted a lot of these from him recently.
> If it were driving, he'd have lost his license by now.
>
> Ed


from_name: Evan Prodromou

subject: [Wikitech-l] RC patrol and event hooks

body:
So, developers and people tracking CVS will have noted that I've added
event-hooking facilities to MediaWiki. There's a framework for adding
hooks to events, documentation, and a sample extension that uses event
hooks to log events to the syslog facility. I plan to keep adding events
to the codebase (and event hooks to the Syslog extension) over the next
few days as I think of them and figure out how to implement them.

I think that RC patrol would be a stellar example of a feature that
should be implemented using event hooks. First, it's optional. Second,
the enabling code for it is spread over several different functions in
several different modules -- it would be more comprehensible and
maintainable if it were all consolidated in one place. Finally, it's
reactive to "core" events like saving and viewing articles.

My question: would anyone be freaked out if I migrated RC patrol to a
single module using event hooks? I'm not 100% sure it can be done, but I
think it would be a worthwhile exercise.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou                  .O.
http://bad.dynu.ca/~evan/       ..O
evan at bad.dynu.ca                OOO


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
On Nov 29, 2004, at 12:35 AM, Petr Kadlec wrote:
>> It detects the encoding on the incoming link and redirects
>> transparently. Where's the problem?
>
> Huh? Wow, I see, it works here in Firefox... Well, I tried it in Opera
> and it _did not_ work. I don't know if the problem was Opera, some
> proxy in-between, sunspots, PEBKAC, or whatever. I'll try it again
> tonight.

Works for me in Opera 7.54 for Mac OS X (build 1840).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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