from_name: Servien Ilaino

body:
Hi Boris,

The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne
Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't
seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I
must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then
the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are
completely unknown to me...)

Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system:
As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny h?yl bruyn w?yrden
mer sal y spyrwit blyven.

And here in the traditional one:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n
mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.

This is the one I use:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden
mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and
a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the
word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because
bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)

(Translation of the text:
If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look,
but will be pale white.)

Servien

2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de>:
>
> > Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
>
> Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
>
>
> > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
>
> Coming from the "?nner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
>
> Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de ?nnerelv (in Hamborg un ?mto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in d?sse/s?kse F?llen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Boris
>
> Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
>
> Hi Boris,
>
> I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
> people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
> Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
> wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
> is "based on Missingsch".
>
> Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
> actually ken the leid.
> (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
>
> "It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
> WikiPlatt team.  Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.  But
> they don't know the language well enough.  Much or most of it is
> "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
> German.  I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
> but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
> the grammar and the authentic idiom."
>
> Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
> would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
> and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
> only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
> German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
>
> This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
> difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
> just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
> welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
>
> Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
> the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
>
> A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
>
> Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
> kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un
> "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Best
> Mark
>
> On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark!
> >
> > I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattd??tsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Nordd??tsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
> >
> > I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However,  I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
> >
> > Boris
> >
> > Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
> >
> > Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
> > ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
> > nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
> > personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
> > nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
> > rather a "contact variety".
> >
> > Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
> > huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
> > fact that it's written in Missingsch.
> >
> > Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
> > real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________________
> > Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
> > Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179
> >
> >
>
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list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [Wikipedia-l] commons: Image description on non-English wikipedias

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:

> The ideal solution would be [...] to store licence information as
> language-independent metadata, descriptions in multiple languages, and
> use something like the "content negotiation" in HTTP to determine what
> to include or display... :)

Sounds good to me. ;-)

Seriously, image licences are meta-data, and should be treated as such
(as should lots of other stuff - interwikis, categories, etc.), and we
on the Wikimedia Research Team^WNetwork are looking into the
plausibility of modifying MediaWiki to have meta-data accessed separately.

Quite apart from anything else, the use of proper meta-data for
licensing would (will? ;-)) allow useful queries to be made, such as
"grab articles in the category 'British monarchs' where all elements are
either Public Domain worldwide, GFDL, or CC-BY", which would allow
semi-automatic creation of non-infringing items for publication anywhere
(though there still might be problems, such as local blasphemy laws,
etc., which would be difficult to cover).

Note that this would need a quite advanced tagging system (c.f. the
discussion on wikien-l over the fact that our 'PD' images of Lindisfarne
scrolls are only PD in the United States, and are infringing in the UK),
which would be, erm, 'fun'.

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester
Wikimedia : [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]
E-Mail    : james at jdforrester.org
IM (MSN)  : jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


list: wikien-l

from_name: Jtkiefer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: Password reminder from Wikipedia

body:
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

>Someone (probably you, from IP address 84.154.85.157)
>requested that we send you a new Wikipedia login password.
>The password for user "MacGyverMagic" is now "**********".
>You should log in and change your password now.
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
>
>
I have a question regarding this, I have had to send myself a password
reminder then remembered my password, now it seems that the main
password stays active when sending a password reminder.  So my questions
are:

1. does the alt. password that was sent to you stay active indefinately
as well?

2. If so isn't that a huge security risk?


from_name: Gerrit Holl

body:
Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> Now that I think about it, license templates like {{GFDL}} should have
> some way of specifying the language, because they always appear in English
> on the commons wiki and will appear in English as well on local
> description pages. Kate's code probably takes commons' page HTML code
> instead of the wikicode (otherwise templates wouldn't work), so it's not
> easy to change this.

What if {{GFDL}} is tranported from commons to a local language site,
and expanded there? So on nl:, we would get [[nl:Template:GFDL]], on de
[[de:Template:GFDL]], etc. Would probably require software tweaks as
well...

Gerrit.

--
Weather in Twenthe, Netherlands 05/07 14:55:
	17.0?C Few clouds mostly cloudy wind 4.5 m/s SW (57 m above NAP)
--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of
unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the
military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of
misplaced power exists and will persist.
    -Dwight David Eisenhower, January 17, 1961


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
On 7/5/05, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> > We also have administrators who make no edits in the main namespace.
>
> Almost all of which still perform janitorial tasks that help us toward our
> primary goal.

In some cases that is quite debatable, but point taken. :)

> > Comradeship and relaxation are important aspects of building and
> > maintaining a community.
>
> The purpose of that community is to generate and maintain content.

No argument there, but it doesn't exclude what I said...

> > It is inappropriate to squelch a harmless activity because if we all
> > stopped doing every but the activity harm would be caused.
>
> It is not harmless if it misdirects a sizable part of the community away from
> our primary goals.

Again agreed, but I've seen no evidence of it doing anything of the
like.  Step away from the strawman or I'll have to take out my
matches. :)

It would also be not harmless if someone took a wikigame too far and
actually hung themself after losing a round of hangman. And it would
be terrible if users spent all their time on wikien-l rather than
working on their content... these things are true but irrelevant.

> > Do you suggest we remove all mention of Wikimania from the site?
> > After all.. a conference is completely unnecessary for the direct
> > goals of Wikipedia.
>
> A large part of Wikimania is hacking sessions and WikiJam activities. So that
> is a completely invalid example.

And a large part isn't those things... Do you suggest we ban the
things which are not directly productive?  As that's what is in effect
being discussed for the games, people do many productive things in the
wiki, and some things which are not directly productive.. and we're
talking about banning those. This would be exactly like banning all
the non work events at wikimania.

A better solution would just be to put the game players on notice that
if there is substantial participation in the games by people who are
not participating in the wiki then the games will be shut down (and
this thread has already made that clear)...  Then peer pressure will
keep people participating in the wiki. As far as I can tell, there is
currently no problem but if one arises this simple measure should
correct it.

Which brings up an important point: The detractors here have been
complaining about loft what ifs...  The wiki is actually a fairly lame
environment for most of the games people are currently playing. There
are far better sites on the internet focused on these games. The only
advantage of playing the games in the wiki is for members of our
community to stay close to the community.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Nicolay A. Vasiliev

subject: [Wikitech-l] Page output

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:

>On 05/07/05, Nicolay Vasiliev <nvasiliev at whiteriversoft.com> wrote:
>
>
>>is the wfProfileOut( $fname ) calling - I can't find the concrete
>>wfProfileOut declaring because there is a lot of functions with the same
>>name in different files.
>>
>>
>
>This doesn't answer your main question, but I think it will eliminate
>one mistake you've made: wfProfileIn() and wfProfileOut() are global
>functions called in pretty much every function to aid developers in
>debugging and improving the code. I think "profiling" in this context
>is about collecting data about the time various functions take to
>complete. Anyway, it's nothing you need to know about to answer your
>question.
>
>
Thanks for your clarifying.

>Thinking about your main question, though, I wonder if it would be
>better to describe what you are actually trying to do. I mean, there
>must indeed be a point where the output is finally "printed" to the
>HTTP connection, but presuming you are hoping to modify that output in
>some way, there may be an earlier stage of processing which your
>modification would conceptually fit into more neatly.
>
>
>
You're right - I try to do this. So, I'd like to know where is this point.

Hope for your help.

TIA


from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
Oh, my apologies Rowan. I guess I don't really understand trolling at
all, and thru my ignorance misunderstood you. What about the trolls
thor used to smash w his hammer?

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 7/5/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Skyring wrote:
> > As for the games, if they aren't consuming significant resources and
> > they reduce stress, then keep them by all means. Just find some way to
> > stop them clogging up RC. And make sure that people don't come here
> > just to play games. There are a zillion game sites on the net - let's
> > not make WP games TOO enthralling!
> >
>
> "You have been blocked by (someone) for 24 hours. Reason: excessive game
> playing. Make some edits to articles, damnit!"
>
> - --
> Alphax
> OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
> and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
> Lewis
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFCylTi/RxM5Ph0xhMRA20FAJ98R0XAVdDjGbV+U2LJkk903wE/IACfU3Lu
> J1qEIUqPhQG7lLyf+t3lOg8=
> =vYD6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>


from_name: A. Nony Mouse

subject: [WikiEN-l] SHOWCASING Abuses of Admin Power

body:
There's room for me to make a comment about you here, but that would be a
"personal attack" now wouldn't it?

I just love how the rules don't ever apply to admins.

A. Nony Mouse

>
>Isn't there a saying "Absolute dicks corrupt absolutely"?
>
>Jay.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
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http://match.msn.ie


body:
> > Kurita77 actually sent emails from MANY IP addresses in his block.
>
>One overlapping IP is all we need for near certainty.

When DHCP is involved, no, I don't think so.

> > I checked the record. Enviroknot's edits and emails to this list do not
> > contain a single swear word, anywhere.
>
>So? anyone can change their writing style.

Anyone "can" change their writing style... in the same way that people can
change their handwriting or their hair color.

Very, very rarely can someone hold such subterfuge for that long. Somewhere,
IF Enviroknot were also KaintheScion/ElKabong, there should have been a
slip-up somewhere. SOME swear. Especially with the number of people here and
on Wikipedia who were spending much time personally attacking and harassing
Enviroknot.

> > Kurita77, on his initial 25 edits, made only one set that were on the
>same
> > subject as Enviroknot. But we have policy on Wikipedia about that.
>Merely
> > editing on the same subject or sharing similar opinions is NOT an
>indication
> > of sockpuppetry.
>
>It's not. When combined with the overlapping IPs, however, it is very
>difficult to dispute.

Again, when DHCP is involved, I don't think so. What would you do if it were
an AOL subscriber who happened to get the IP of another blocked AOL
subscriber and edited on the same topic?

> > Kurita77 was an example of a bunch of Inquisitionists running around
>needing
> > someone else to persecute, and biting the newbies. There was no good
>faith
> > involved in dealing with him.
>
>Perhaps it could have been handled better initially, I haven't looked
>but I'd be surprised if I hadn't posted saying that.

If you did, you didn't spend much time on it. In fact, YOU were the one who
sent the little "gem" telling him that the only way he'd get his account
back would be to hunt down Enviroknot wherever he was and force him to move
out of the area.

No. You crossed the line, you purposely agitated Kurita77 rather than
dealing in good faith.

> > Instead, the Kurita77 case has proven a few things about the bad faith
> > inherent in the behavior of editors/admins like YOU:
>
>I have assigned no bad faith to Kurita77, I have only stated that
>obvious that his equivalence with enviroknott is nearly beyond
>reasonable dispute.

And I state for the record that any such assertion is roughly the equivalent
of what I remove from my horses' stalls in the morning.

> > 1 - You believe that no editor is smart enough to read the rules and
> > tutorials before posting, and that (therefore) any editor who comes in
>and
> > doesn't sound like a l33t skr1pt k1dd13z poster is guilty of being a
> > sockpuppet.
>
>I have *never* made this claim, and I disagree strongly with anyone
>who makes it and I have done so publicly on the list.

Yet that is PRECISELY the claim made time and again as evidence - that
Kurita77 "had" to be a sockpuppet because he "knew too much" about
formatting edits on Wikipedia. This despite the fact that he had to go
asking another editor for help in formatting his signature, and proceeded to
get it wrong multiple times.

That's not the act of an experienced editor, it's the act of a newbie.

> > We should not bite the newbies for actually paying attention.
>
>agreed.

At least you agree on that. Too bad you fail to practice it.

> > 2 - You believe that quoting someone (which is as simple as copying and
> > pasting their edit) is evidence of sockpuppetry. Again, this CANNOT be
> > allowed to be the case.
> > The case of Kurita77's quote - which you call "complete support" - is
>YOU
> > misrepresenting the event, nothing more. His actual behavior was to take
>a
> > small paragraph from out between the bickering between Zeno of Elea and
> > BrandonYusufToropov/Anonymous Editor, because it held a valuable
>suggestion
> > - a suggestion that BrandonYusufToropov even agreed was a good one,
>though
> > the suggestion itself stirred up the usual hornets' nest of Islamic
> > detractors and defenders pushing alternate readings of the Koran.
>
>I said,  "Furthermore Kurita77 initial edits were on the same subjects
>and enviroknott, and even came out in support of enviroknott.". Please
>get your quotes right. He did edit in support of enviroknott, this is
>not by itself evidence of anything. When you combine it with the other
>evidence.. the likelihood is overwhelming.

Hardly.

"Keep in mind there can be multiple users who are driven to start
participating in Wikipedia for the same reason, __particularly in
controversial areas such as articles about the conflict in the Middle
East__, cult figures, or Wikipedia:Votes for deletion. Some have suggested
applying the 100-edit guideline more strongly in such cases, assuming that
all accounts with fewer than 100 edits are sock puppets. Generally, __such
beliefs have been shown not to be well founded__."

How much clearer do I need to be? I tried to bold it but the list doesn't
allow Rich-Text Emails (can the admins check on why this is?).

There is not "overwhelming" evidence of anything - there is the assertion
that because he:
- edited the same article,
- and cut-and-pasted a valid point which was being overlooked under the
usual holy-warrior garbage that goes on every time editors like
BrandonYusufToropov and Zeno of Elea get together,
- and happened to live somewhere inside the Houston city limits (gee, not
like it's not the fourth largest city in the US or anything),
that somehow he "must" be a sockpuppet even though his other edits don't
match up and neither does his language.

I don't buy it. This is a case of admins on a power trip biting the newbies
and refusing to admit they were wrong to do so, which was made worse by
admins like YOU who saw an opportunity to jump in and cause a personal
attack free-for-all on the innocent newbie.

NEVER the way you should treat new users. But you and every other admin who
jumped in to start attacking Kurita77 (I think I only saw ONE mail that was
even close to being in good faith) showed what you were made of. It wasn't
pretty.

What's even sadder is that I see this kind of stuff all the time on
Wikipedia. The inner clique of Adminship has become a license to make up
rules as you go along and break the existing rules with impunity, rather
than a trust to enforce them and stay within them. Calling it a "despotism"
isn't far off from the reality.

>I realize you are trying to defend the wronged here... but there are a
>lot of wronged people who would make a better case for your
>assistance.

We'll start with this one, thank you very much. Now address the points.

A. Nony Mouse

_________________________________________________________________
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http://messenger.msn.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

body:
You know something?

The behaviors of admins like Weyes could easily have become - the "many
admins, and even some arbitrators" (read: just about ALL of the current
Arbitration Committee as well as the now-retired "Red Queen") who have
forgotten about civility and more generally about paying attention to
Wikipedia policy - is what I've been talking about.

But instead of seeing them dealing with the issue, I've been getting almost
nothing but nasty responses from the "go away we don't want to hear about
it" inner Admin clique.

How does that grab you? What does that say about the current Admin clique?

A. Nony Mouse

>From: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
>Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:26:36 -0400
>
>Failing to admin a volatile user is not a failure.  A volatile user
>not recognizing the reasons for a delay in granting him additional
>powers; that is a failure.  Weyes's volatility has been proven by his
>abrupt departure.
>
>Note that several users who voted "oppose" to his admin candidacies
>also said he'd be a good candidate in the future.  There were enough
>that if they changed their votes, he would have been adminned both
>times.  He also received a lot of compliments for his RC patrol work,
>even in some oppose votes.
>
>Like it or not, administrators are the "official face" of Wikipedia to
>the general editing public.  Recently, many admins, and even some
>arbitrators seem to have forgotten this, and have been less civil than
>is generally expected from someone in such a position.  Since
>de-adminning is near impossible for simple incivility (and incivility
>among admins is frequently excused by other admins as "part of a tough
>job"), it is becoming more difficult to become an admin because at
>least some users want Wikipedia to have an indefatigably friendly
>face.  For some reason, some admins think this push for higher
>standards is an anti-admin cabal, rather than a legitimate, good faith
>effort by concerned individuals to improve Wikipedia.  If you have a
>devil in the field, you need a lot more saints surrounding him if you
>don't want him seen.
>
>Want adminship to be easier to get, and closer to "no big deal"?  Be
>sure that the admins that are in place are always on their best
>behavior, and *always* admonish those who aren't, even if there isn't
>any formal punishment.  Stop excusing incivility for any reason
>whatsoever.
>
>--
>Michael Turley
>User:Unfocused
>

_________________________________________________________________
Upgrade to Messenger 7.0 - more fun features, still totally FREE!
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body:
Haven't you noticed by now?

This utterly dismissive attitude by users like sandifer/Snowspinner and
GMaxwell is typical of the inner admin clique - they really, truly, DO NOT
CARE unless it involves them staying in power.

Anything that would mean they would have to pay attention to the rules and
policies, or do their job properly, or admit they were wrong... forget it.

And it's the users - the same users we rely on to write an encyclopedia -
that are hurt by their constant, dismissive, arrogant attitude.

Admins are not "better" than other editors. They are editors with a couple
extra buttons.

There are too many Admins today who have forgotten that and seem to think
that Adminship is a license to throw their weight around and lord it over
all the "common folk" editors.

A. Nony Mouse

>From: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: (fwd) bishonen exercises abuse of admin power
>Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:34:56 -0400
>
>On 7/2/05, Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > -Snowspinner
> >
> > On Jul 1, 2005, at 1:13 PM, Nathan J. Yoder wrote:
> >
> > >> You're correct - the second block is an IP address block, designed to
> > >> prevent people from just creating a new account.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Yes, which why this isn't functioning properly.  It should only renew
> > > it if the person tries it while not logged in or if they create/use
> > > another account (a sock puppet) to try to edit (in other words--if
> > > they try to evade the block). That's not what I was doing though, I
> > > was logged in as User:Njyoder the entire time and didn't realize until
> > > later that by hitting 'edit' it automatically renewed it.
> >
> >
> > Ah, I see. Perhaps you would like to look at the Mediawiki code and
> > fix this problem then, because, honestly, you're the one who cares.
> >
> > -Snowspinner
>
>This utterly dismissive attitude toward a complaint is very harmful to
>Wikipedia, even if you don't believe the complaint is legitimate.  You
>should have either directed him to the developer's list, or civilly
>stated your opinion whether this was a desirable bug or feature, or
>simply left it to others to discuss.
>
>--
>Michael Turley
>User:Unfocused
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
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from_name: Boris Lohnzweiger

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage

body:
Hi Servien!

Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattd??tsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.

Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:

"Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> k?mmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "h?yl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "w?yrden" also omitted here> s?nnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>

Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattd??tsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "?" or an "u" there?) for "k?mmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.

Boris

Servien Ilaino <servien at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:

Hi Boris,

The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne
Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't
seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I
must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then
the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are
completely unknown to me...)

Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system:
As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny h?yl bruyn w?yrden
mer sal y spyrwit blyven.

And here in the traditional one:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n
mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.

This is the one I use:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden
mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and
a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the
word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because
bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)

(Translation of the text:
If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look,
but will be pale white.)

Servien

2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de>:
>
> > Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
>
> Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
>
>
> > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
>
> Coming from the "?nner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
>
> Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de ?nnerelv (in Hamborg un ?mto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in d?sse/s?kse F?llen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Boris
>
> Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
>
> Hi Boris,
>
> I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
> people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
> Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
> wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
> is "based on Missingsch".
>
> Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
> actually ken the leid.
> (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
>
> "It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
> WikiPlatt team.  Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.  But
> they don't know the language well enough.  Much or most of it is
> "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
> German.  I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
> but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
> the grammar and the authentic idiom."
>
> Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
> would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
> and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
> only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
> German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
>
> This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
> difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
> just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
> welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
>
> Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
> the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
>
> A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
>
> Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
> kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un
> "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Best
> Mark
>
> On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark!
> >
> > I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattd??tsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Nordd??tsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
> >
> > I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However,  I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
> >
> > Boris
> >
> > Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
> >
> > Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
> > ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
> > nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
> > personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
> > nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
> > rather a "contact variety".
> >
> > Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
> > huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
> > fact that it's written in Missingsch.
> >
> > Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
> > real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________________
> > Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
> > Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179
> >
> >
>
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> POSSIT MATERIARI
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from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] addition

body:
On 7/5/05, Michael White <mwhite1 at iinet.net.au> wrote:
> I have just visited your MICHAEL WHITE page. Have you thought of adding a
> piece about Michael White the biographer?

So long as you and he are not the same person, feel free to do the
best job you can!

Then again, I notice that several WP editors with slight claims to
fame have managed to contribute heavily to articles about themselves,
as well as people places and events where they had even a tangential
impact.

--
Peter in Canberra


body:
corrigendum: in my third sentence "but" should be "both"

wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 17:50:54:

Hi Servien!

Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattd??tsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.

Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:

"Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> k?mmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "h?yl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "w?yrden" also omitted here> s?nnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>

Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattd??tsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "?" or an "u" there?) for "k?mmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.

Boris

Servien Ilaino <servien at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:

Hi Boris,

The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne
Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't
seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I
must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then
the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are
completely unknown to me...)

Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system:
As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny h?yl bruyn w?yrden
mer sal y spyrwit blyven.

And here in the traditional one:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n
mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.

This is the one I use:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden
mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and
a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the
word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because
bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)

(Translation of the text:
If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look,
but will be pale white.)

Servien

2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de>:
>
> > Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
>
> Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
>
>
> > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
>
> Coming from the "?nner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
>
> Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de ?nnerelv (in Hamborg un ?mto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in d?sse/s?kse F?llen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Boris
>
> Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
>
> Hi Boris,
>
> I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
> people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
> Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
> wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
> is "based on Missingsch".
>
> Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
> actually ken the leid.
> (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
>
> "It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
> WikiPlatt team.  Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.  But
> they don't know the language well enough.  Much or most of it is
> "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
> German.  I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
> but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
> the grammar and the authentic idiom."
>
> Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
> would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
> and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
> only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
> German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
>
> This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
> difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
> just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
> welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
>
> Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
> the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
>
> A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
>
> Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
> kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un
> "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Best
> Mark
>
> On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark!
> >
> > I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattd??tsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Nordd??tsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
> >
> > I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However,  I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
> >
> > Boris
> >
> > Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
> >
> > Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
> > ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
> > nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
> > personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
> > nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
> > rather a "contact variety".
> >
> > Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
> > huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
> > fact that it's written in Missingsch.
> >
> > Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
> > real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

body:
>From: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
>Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:43:16 -0400
>
>On 7/5/05, A. Nony Mouse <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > You know something?
> >
> > The behaviors of admins like Weyes could easily have become - the "many
> > admins, and even some arbitrators" (read: just about ALL of the current
> > Arbitration Committee as well as the now-retired "Red Queen") who have
> > forgotten about civility and more generally about paying attention to
> > Wikipedia policy - is what I've been talking about.
> >
> > But instead of seeing them dealing with the issue, I've been getting
>almost
> > nothing but nasty responses from the "go away we don't want to hear
>about
> > it" inner Admin clique.
> >
> > How does that grab you? What does that say about the current Admin
>clique?
> >
> > A. Nony Mouse
>
>Your reply "grabs me" as considerably more critical than my own
>message was intended to be.
>
>I don't see a clique, and I don't see any significant abuses of
>policy, but I do occasionally see excuses for harsh conduct where no
>excuses should be.

I call it a clique because it's the same admins - time and again - who are
the ones coming in and making excuses for the bad behavior of their friends.
And the favor seems to be returned.

It's not just here, it's on Wikipedia in general. All we see on this list is
the tip of the iceberg, the very few users who cared enough for WHATEVER
reason to take the option of last resort and appeal for the righting of
wrongs.

Instead of getting it, they're getting harrassment at the hands of this
clique of editors who see nothing wrong with bad behavior and in many cases
encourage the bad behavior of their fellows.

That's a problem. A BIG problem. Without this clique of editors, we wouldn't
have been subjected to expletive-filled rants by Kurita77 and Yoder. I don't
blame the newbies, I blame the clique of editors who choose to take an
opportunity to blow off steam by repeatedly biting newbies until they blow
up.

A. Nony Mouse

_________________________________________________________________
Start dating right now with FREE Match.com membership! http://match.msn.ie


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] Validation feature

body:
I looked at it again and the interface hadn't changed, its still
hardcoded (rather than using XHTML/CSS) and completely out of sync
with the rest of the UI, it has some hardcoded strings and a generally
hard-to-understand UI.


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

body:
On Jul 5, 2005, at 5:19 PM, A. Nony Mouse wrote:

>
> And I think your so-called "arguments" are pure garbage.

Of course you do - you're Enviroknot.

-Snowspinner


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Used-with-permission images, a modest proposal

body:
In 05/07/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> The polite expression for what they have been telling you is "bullshit".
>
> The minor variations that you cite are often of no consequence to the
> user who can remove the so-called creative effects by changing browser
> settings or cropping out the ruler.  This should effectively remove the
> "copyright" material from the picture.

Except, sadly, this isn't the case.

The photograph is, in effect, indivisible. It's not that there's
"copyright material" and "non-copyright material" put together to form
a composite copyrighted document, which would be the case if - for
example - I quoted the Lindisfarne Gospels at length, but inserted my
own commentary between sections. In that case, copyrightable and
non-copyrightable material can be trivially separated, and a court
would likely hold that any minor changes I'd made to the original
(punctuation, spelling homogenisation, &c) could be considered not
deserving of copyright outside of the context of my commentary.

With the photograph, as I discussed with Haukur earlier today, there
are two aspects to consider. Firstly, as you comment here, we have the
"compilation" copyright - where copyright is held by virtue of the
original assembly of components for the photograph.

However, we also have to contend with the originality of the
photograph as a whole, which is where problems arise. It is inevitable
- simply by virtue of the age and value of the document in question -
that any photography of it is an involved, organised effort, involving
a professional applying skill and judgement to the situation. The book
will have been prepared for photography, a page will have been chosen,
the book arranged carefully, lighting set up... &c. It's a non-trivial
exercise, this stuff.

Under British copyright law, as I understand it, it is very difficult
*not* to consider the final photograph an original work, even
disregarding the existence of the added scales. It's not the law I'd
like it to be, but it's there, and it is at least somewhat defensible
from the point of view of the photographer.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Insults disallowed,
	was: Re: (fwd) bishonen exercises abuse of admin power

body:
I will state for the record that Bishonen is one of the few Admins who does
NOT seem to be in the clique of power-abusing admins, as he DID do the right
thing and unblock Yoder when push came to shove.

However, the fact that push was required to come to shove before anything
happened, and the subsequent treatment of Yoder by OTHER admins, is still a
cause for concern.

A. Nony Mouse

>From: Bishonen <bishonen at ungoodthinkful.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Insults disallowed,was: Re: (fwd) bishonen
>exercises abuse of admin power
>Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:56:11 +0200
>
>
>On 5 jul 2005, at 18.34, Michael Turley wrote:
>
>No, actually what you wrote isn't the point so much as your subject  line.
>Mark Ryan wrote in a message yesterday that "insults are  disallowed" on
>the list. And yet there's been this hefty thread  running for quite a while
>now, supposedly on the subject of my  "exercise of abuse". I thought it had
>stopped. If you care about the  tone of this list (which is what you're
>writing about) then please  don't re-animate it.
>
>Bishonen
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
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http://messenger.msn.co.uk


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

body:
If its such a problem, you don't have to edit. Infact, you don't even have
to be on this mailing list, and the borderline, unjustifyable cases you are
bringing up are making people not want you to do either.

Now, i'm not sure who you are, but you've been repeating yourself for the
past couple of days and its quite clear that you aren't bringing anything to
this mailing list that we haven't heard and defended ourselves against
before.

The only case you seem to be bringing to us is the same old "Admins abuse
power", "Admins are evil", etc. messages which aren't anything new. Its
starting to bore people, to be honest, and unless you have any substantial
evidence to present about all of this I really doubt that your persistence
will get you anywhere.
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Nony Mouse" <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com>
To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

> >From: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
> ><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> >Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
> >Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:43:16 -0400
> >
> >On 7/5/05, A. Nony Mouse <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > You know something?
> > >
> > > The behaviors of admins like Weyes could easily have become - the
"many
> > > admins, and even some arbitrators" (read: just about ALL of the
current
> > > Arbitration Committee as well as the now-retired "Red Queen") who have
> > > forgotten about civility and more generally about paying attention to
> > > Wikipedia policy - is what I've been talking about.
> > >
> > > But instead of seeing them dealing with the issue, I've been getting
> >almost
> > > nothing but nasty responses from the "go away we don't want to hear
> >about
> > > it" inner Admin clique.
> > >
> > > How does that grab you? What does that say about the current Admin
> >clique?
> > >
> > > A. Nony Mouse
> >
> >Your reply "grabs me" as considerably more critical than my own
> >message was intended to be.
> >
> >I don't see a clique, and I don't see any significant abuses of
> >policy, but I do occasionally see excuses for harsh conduct where no
> >excuses should be.
>
> I call it a clique because it's the same admins - time and again - who are
> the ones coming in and making excuses for the bad behavior of their
friends.
> And the favor seems to be returned.
>
> It's not just here, it's on Wikipedia in general. All we see on this list
is
> the tip of the iceberg, the very few users who cared enough for WHATEVER
> reason to take the option of last resort and appeal for the righting of
> wrongs.
>
> Instead of getting it, they're getting harrassment at the hands of this
> clique of editors who see nothing wrong with bad behavior and in many
cases
> encourage the bad behavior of their fellows.
>
> That's a problem. A BIG problem. Without this clique of editors, we
wouldn't
> have been subjected to expletive-filled rants by Kurita77 and Yoder. I
don't
> blame the newbies, I blame the clique of editors who choose to take an
> opportunity to blow off steam by repeatedly biting newbies until they blow
> up.
>
> A. Nony Mouse
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Start dating right now with FREE Match.com membership! http://match.msn.ie
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

body:
I am specifically NOT saying that *ALL* Admins are evil. However, there ARE
a decent number of them who are regularly abusing their authority, and who
(on this list and on Wikipedia in general) are not being reined in but
instead are being encouraged to continue their behavior by mutual protectors
who are ALSO Admins.

It's quite a racket. Get in as friends with the "right" Admins / ArbCom
members, and you're functionally insulated from any penalty for breaking the
rules or abusing your powers. Because no matter WHAT you do, they will come
riding to your rescue and defending your actions. And all you have to do in
return is treat the bigwigs as if their word had come directly from the
mouth of $DIETY as divine law, and back THEM up when someone protests
against THEIR abuses.

But I'm not allowed to name names. Since I don't run the list and I'm not
part of the clique, that's a "personal attack."

I have presented my points in the case of Yoder and Kurita77. YOU seem to be
dead-set on IGNORING it, because you want to justify the behavior of
clique-member Admins.

A. Nony Mouse

>From: "David 'DJ' Hedley" <spyders at btinternet.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
>Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:06:54 +0100
>
>If its such a problem, you don't have to edit. Infact, you don't even have
>to be on this mailing list, and the borderline, unjustifyable cases you are
>bringing up are making people not want you to do either.
>
>Now, i'm not sure who you are, but you've been repeating yourself for the
>past couple of days and its quite clear that you aren't bringing anything
>to
>this mailing list that we haven't heard and defended ourselves against
>before.
>
>The only case you seem to be bringing to us is the same old "Admins abuse
>power", "Admins are evil", etc. messages which aren't anything new. Its
>starting to bore people, to be honest, and unless you have any substantial
>evidence to present about all of this I really doubt that your persistence
>will get you anywhere.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "A. Nony Mouse" <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com>
>To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:55 PM
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
>
>
> > >From: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
> > ><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > >To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> > >Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
> > >Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:43:16 -0400
> > >
> > >On 7/5/05, A. Nony Mouse <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > You know something?
> > > >
> > > > The behaviors of admins like Weyes could easily have become - the
>"many
> > > > admins, and even some arbitrators" (read: just about ALL of the
>current
> > > > Arbitration Committee as well as the now-retired "Red Queen") who
>have
> > > > forgotten about civility and more generally about paying attention
>to
> > > > Wikipedia policy - is what I've been talking about.
> > > >
> > > > But instead of seeing them dealing with the issue, I've been getting
> > >almost
> > > > nothing but nasty responses from the "go away we don't want to hear
> > >about
> > > > it" inner Admin clique.
> > > >
> > > > How does that grab you? What does that say about the current Admin
> > >clique?
> > > >
> > > > A. Nony Mouse
> > >
> > >Your reply "grabs me" as considerably more critical than my own
> > >message was intended to be.
> > >
> > >I don't see a clique, and I don't see any significant abuses of
> > >policy, but I do occasionally see excuses for harsh conduct where no
> > >excuses should be.
> >
> > I call it a clique because it's the same admins - time and again - who
>are
> > the ones coming in and making excuses for the bad behavior of their
>friends.
> > And the favor seems to be returned.
> >
> > It's not just here, it's on Wikipedia in general. All we see on this
>list
>is
> > the tip of the iceberg, the very few users who cared enough for WHATEVER
> > reason to take the option of last resort and appeal for the righting of
> > wrongs.
> >
> > Instead of getting it, they're getting harrassment at the hands of this
> > clique of editors who see nothing wrong with bad behavior and in many
>cases
> > encourage the bad behavior of their fellows.
> >
> > That's a problem. A BIG problem. Without this clique of editors, we
>wouldn't
> > have been subjected to expletive-filled rants by Kurita77 and Yoder. I
>don't
> > blame the newbies, I blame the clique of editors who choose to take an
> > opportunity to blow off steam by repeatedly biting newbies until they
>blow
> > up.
> >
> > A. Nony Mouse
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Start dating right now with FREE Match.com membership!
>http://match.msn.ie
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
Don't know what Meegos are? Click to find out. http://meegos.msn.ie


from_name: Mark Ryan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Non-free images, there has to be a better way

body:
I recognise all that, Gregory. It's just very inconvenient :)

What about [[Image:Wiki.png]] - that's trademarked. Is the Wikipedia
logo really released under the GFDL??

~Mark Ryan

On 7/4/05, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark, the goal of the project is to make a free encyclopedia. When we
> speak of free we speak of freedom and not price.
> There are already many good unfree encyclopedias, and you can even
> obtain access to them at no cost.
>
> Every non-free image we incorporate potentially puts many people who
> use our content in the intended fashion in a legally precarious
> position. This risk is not only extends to our users, but also puts
> the Wikimedia Foundation that runs our servers in danger. Thus every
> nonfree image and every insufficiently tagged image we incorporate
> reduces the freedom of Wikipedia. This is simply unacceptable because
> in a large enough scale it defeats the purpose of our project.
>
> There are places where the law in most of the world will permit us to
> use some images which are mostly free because of the nature of our
> use. However since this use is only permissible in a very limited
> scope and in a way which applicable world wide, this use also reduces
> the freedom of Wikipedia and should be avoided even though it is
> permitted by the law where our servers are operated.  Because in some
> cases we can not adequately do our job without borrowing some
> copyrighted content in a way which is legally permissible, we continue
> to permit these images but they must be tagged as such and they should
> be replaced should a replacement become available. Through these
> measures we mitigate the harm to Wikipedia.
>
> Mark, I understand the uncomfortability of your situation, but
> Wikipedia's goal of providing content that people can easily use
> freely without risk of running afoul of the law superseeds our desire
> to be liberal in what we permit our editors to store on their
> userpages.  I would encourage you to locate an offsite webhost and
> provide your unfree content via external link.
>


body:
That is ALWAYS the problem with intellectual property law (not to mention
modern court systems): they always require going to court to hash out the
underlying question, and they allow the big fish (Royal Library, Microsoft,
International Conglomerate #4, etc) to use the court not as a legitimate
means of settling dispute but rather as a bludgeon - because even defending
against frivolous lawsuits will cost money for paperwork and lawyer time and
filing fees, and they've got an army of lawyers that can kick out a
frivolous lawsuit variant every 5 minutes or so.

A. Nony Mouse

>Many of these things cannot be settled without going to court in each
>separate country, and the putative copyright holders know that the mere
>idea of landing in court can be a deterrent even when the chance of the
>court upholding the copyright is negligible.
>
>Lego is a good example of a Danish company that actively pursues
>intellectual property rights against Megablocks in one country after
>another, and consistently loses.
>
>Ec
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
It's finally here! Download Messenger 7.0 - still FREE
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

body:
I haven't seen the case of Yoder, but lets just sum up the Kurita77 case:

You say that Kurita77 is not Enviroknot because:

* He sweared in his e-mails, and Enviroknot didn't.
* His IP eventually didn't match (although this can easily be done by
forging the IP)

We say that he is, because:

* His IP initially matched that of Enviroknot, both on the mailing list and
on Wikipedia.
* He instantly edited on the same topics as Enviroknot.
* On these topics he edited on, he shared an opinion with Enviroknot, which
was a minority opinion anyway.

I don't know about you, but are points cancel out yours ten times over. I'm
out of this case now, but I think that the case is solved anyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Nony Mouse" <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com>
To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes

> I am specifically NOT saying that *ALL* Admins are evil. However, there
ARE
> a decent number of them who are regularly abusing their authority, and who
> (on this list and on Wikipedia in general) are not being reined in but
> instead are being encouraged to continue their behavior by mutual
protectors
> who are ALSO Admins.
>
> It's quite a racket. Get in as friends with the "right" Admins / ArbCom
> members, and you're functionally insulated from any penalty for breaking
the
> rules or abusing your powers. Because no matter WHAT you do, they will
come
> riding to your rescue and defending your actions. And all you have to do
in
> return is treat the bigwigs as if their word had come directly from the
> mouth of $DIETY as divine law, and back THEM up when someone protests
> against THEIR abuses.
>
> But I'm not allowed to name names. Since I don't run the list and I'm not
> part of the clique, that's a "personal attack."
>
> I have presented my points in the case of Yoder and Kurita77. YOU seem to
be
> dead-set on IGNORING it, because you want to justify the behavior of
> clique-member Admins.
>
> A. Nony Mouse
>
> >From: "David 'DJ' Hedley" <spyders at btinternet.com>
> >Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
> >Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:06:54 +0100
> >
> >If its such a problem, you don't have to edit. Infact, you don't even
have
> >to be on this mailing list, and the borderline, unjustifyable cases you
are
> >bringing up are making people not want you to do either.
> >
> >Now, i'm not sure who you are, but you've been repeating yourself for the
> >past couple of days and its quite clear that you aren't bringing anything
> >to
> >this mailing list that we haven't heard and defended ourselves against
> >before.
> >
> >The only case you seem to be bringing to us is the same old "Admins abuse
> >power", "Admins are evil", etc. messages which aren't anything new. Its
> >starting to bore people, to be honest, and unless you have any
substantial
> >evidence to present about all of this I really doubt that your
persistence
> >will get you anywhere.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "A. Nony Mouse" <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com>
> >To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:55 PM
> >Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
> >
> >
> > > >From: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>
> > > >Reply-To: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
> > > ><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > > >To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Weyes
> > > >Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:43:16 -0400
> > > >
> > > >On 7/5/05, A. Nony Mouse <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > You know something?
> > > > >
> > > > > The behaviors of admins like Weyes could easily have become - the
> >"many
> > > > > admins, and even some arbitrators" (read: just about ALL of the
> >current
> > > > > Arbitration Committee as well as the now-retired "Red Queen") who
> >have
> > > > > forgotten about civility and more generally about paying attention
> >to
> > > > > Wikipedia policy - is what I've been talking about.
> > > > >
> > > > > But instead of seeing them dealing with the issue, I've been
getting
> > > >almost
> > > > > nothing but nasty responses from the "go away we don't want to
hear
> > > >about
> > > > > it" inner Admin clique.
> > > > >
> > > > > How does that grab you? What does that say about the current Admin
> > > >clique?
> > > > >
> > > > > A. Nony Mouse
> > > >
> > > >Your reply "grabs me" as considerably more critical than my own
> > > >message was intended to be.
> > > >
> > > >I don't see a clique, and I don't see any significant abuses of
> > > >policy, but I do occasionally see excuses for harsh conduct where no
> > > >excuses should be.
> > >
> > > I call it a clique because it's the same admins - time and again - who
> >are
> > > the ones coming in and making excuses for the bad behavior of their
> >friends.
> > > And the favor seems to be returned.
> > >
> > > It's not just here, it's on Wikipedia in general. All we see on this
> >list
> >is
> > > the tip of the iceberg, the very few users who cared enough for
WHATEVER
> > > reason to take the option of last resort and appeal for the righting
of
> > > wrongs.
> > >
> > > Instead of getting it, they're getting harrassment at the hands of
this
> > > clique of editors who see nothing wrong with bad behavior and in many
> >cases
> > > encourage the bad behavior of their fellows.
> > >
> > > That's a problem. A BIG problem. Without this clique of editors, we
> >wouldn't
> > > have been subjected to expletive-filled rants by Kurita77 and Yoder. I
> >don't
> > > blame the newbies, I blame the clique of editors who choose to take an
> > > opportunity to blow off steam by repeatedly biting newbies until they
> >blow
> > > up.
> > >
> > > A. Nony Mouse
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Start dating right now with FREE Match.com membership!
> >http://match.msn.ie
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >WikiEN-l mailing list
> >WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't know what Meegos are? Click to find out. http://meegos.msn.ie
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
On 7/5/05, A. Nony Mouse <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Can we get rid of this Mouse guy? Hes bugging me.
>
> Gee. That looks like a personal attack to me. I thought those were
> disallowed?

They are. Do play nicely, children. We don't want to go hurting
anyone's feelings with these insults.

~Mark Ryan


from_name: Fastfission

body:
Yes -- this is the only real vulnerability: that the password being
sent might be intercepted or snooped upon. Not in someone guessing it.

(Unless of course the password generator is not really very random. If
it is based on something un-interesting and reasonably calculatable
like the computer clock timer or the sending IP address then maybe one
would have a problem.)

FF

On 7/5/05, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:
> So don't register an e-mail address with your account, and then no
> generated password will ever be sent out that way. This danger isn't
> really reliant on the password being valid for a long time, only on it
> being sent to or through an insecure e-mail server. If you're worried
> someone may be trying to exploit the e-mailed password to get into
> your account, change your real password, and it will immediately cease
> being valid.
>
> Besides, if this was a banking site, I'd take these issues a bit more
> seriously; if someone just wants to impersonate or disadvantage you on
> Wikipedia, I'm sure they could find simpler ways anyway.
>
> --
> Rowan Collins BSc
> [IMSoP]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Larry Eitel

subject: [Wikitech-l] Recreating Similar fundraising forms

body:
I am trying to reconstruct the WikiMedia Fundraising page similar to:

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD

I found all the templates involved but since the above page wiki-source
cannot be viewed, I am trying to replicate this page. Perhaps someone with
rights can reply with the wiki-source for this page.

Click here for Donation Templates:

http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages
<http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=do
nation&namespace=10> &from=donation&namespace=10

Thanks! :-)


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Automatic Unit Conversion (Patch for Bug 235)

body:
On 05/07/05, Ryan Kaldari <kaldari at monsterlabs.com> wrote:
> I think that perhaps there is an opportunity to implement a more
> broadly useful feature here: content substitution based on user prefs.

One argument that somebody will no doubt bring up against this is that
for server performance reasons, it is desirable to have as few things
varying per user in this way as possible (since you can't serve a page
cached with metric measurements to someone wanting imperial ones). Of
course, we already do have this for dates, and I for one would
certainly prefer "<date>15 January 2005</date>" to the current voodoo
of "[[15 January]] [[2005]]".

I'm not usually keen on doing things client-side that can be more
reliably done on the server, but I can see that there would be
advantages to having a JavaScript implementation of these kind of
variables. Perhaps some code could be written that by default served
everyone the same page, with a personalised JavaScript inclusion, but
somehow spotted JavaScript failure and fell back on a personalised
rendering? I'm not sure how that would work, but it would certainly be
handy - the alternative would be to simply deny such configuration to
anyone without suitable JavaScript, which would be a shame.

> the plane was shot at {{time|21:30|9:30 pm}} on {{date|15
> January|January 15}} causing the loss of {{measurement|89 liters|23
> gallons}} of fuel.

Just a quick qestion: if you have an automatic conversion system, why
would you have a syntax that required specifying the data in more than
one way? I know this is just an example, but it seems an odd one -
especially since there are far more than two ways of formatting a
date.

I was pleased to note that the test implementation someone posted to
the list a while ago actually dealt with accuracy better than some
users - it didn't make the mistake of turning "300 metres" into
"328.08 yards", which is extremely unlikely to be true.

Interestingly, this example also alerted me to the fact that if we
were to have an automatic unit converter, it might as well deal with
the spelling of the units while it's at it: "liter" vs "litre",
"metre" vs "meter", etc [Of course, some American units aren't the
same as their Imperial counterparts anyway...]

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Bishonen

body:
On 5 jul 2005, at 18.34, Michael Turley wrote:

No, actually what you wrote isn't the point so much as your subject
line. Mark Ryan wrote in a message yesterday that "insults are
disallowed" on the list. And yet there's been this hefty thread
running for quite a while now, supposedly on the subject of my
"exercise of abuse". I thought it had stopped. If you care about the
tone of this list (which is what you're writing about) then please
don't re-animate it.

Bishonen


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Validation feature

body:
Now that 1.5 is running, and the big bugs bite^W are on the verge of
extinction, I feel it is my duty to introduce some new ones. :-)

Did anyone look into the validation feature again? I have fixed what
seemed to be the most pressing problems. I'm not sure about performance,
but I'm pretty sure it doesn't load the whole table into memory at any
point.

There has been a request for the feature on the German mailing list, and
I'd wager it won't stay the only one, on many lists.

Should we
* sit back and wait for it to mend itself magically
* let everyone have a final look and turn it on to see what happens
* turn it on right now
?

Magnus
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from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 24, Issue 22

body:
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Michael Turley wrote:
> I'm always disappointed when I hear of people leaving, but I'd rather
> have an unstable person leave because of a failed admin nomination
> than promote an unstable person to adminship.  At least this way, the
> instability has only driven a single user away.
>

Um, you seem to forget the case of RickK - an unstable admin who left
and deleted pages when they went...

- --
Alphax
OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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body:
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Skyring wrote:
> As for the games, if they aren't consuming significant resources and
> they reduce stress, then keep them by all means. Just find some way to
> stop them clogging up RC. And make sure that people don't come here
> just to play games. There are a zillion game sites on the net - let's
> not make WP games TOO enthralling!
>

"You have been blocked by (someone) for 24 hours. Reason: excessive game
playing. Make some edits to articles, damnit!"

- --
Alphax
OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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body:
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Theo Clarke wrote:
> My understanding from museum and gallery folks is that the
> photography is a creative act.  This is substantiated by the
> variations that are possible in the representation of the object (if
> only variations of intensity and hue).  In the case of the page with
> the ruler and scale, the placing of those elements is a matter of
> selection so the image involves demonstrable creativity.  So, the
> image depicted on the page of the book is out of copyright but any
> reproduction of that image can be copyright.  Most museums have a
> fiduciary duty to their trustees to protect the assets of the museum;
> this includes intellectual property.
>

And yet, we have lots of works by artists which have been photographed
from galleries (eg. a whole bunch of stuff by Vincent van Gogh) on
Commons, and whoever provided those images hasn't come after us with
pitchforks and scythes yet...

- --
Alphax
OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S.
Lewis
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Game-playing on Wikipedia

body:
On 7/5/05, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It is not harmless if it misdirects a sizable part of the community away from
> our primary goals.

Ah, but that assumes they'd be using that time to write articles in
the first place, which is a somewhat questionable assumption. In the
scale of things, I think "Wikigaming" (which seems to be the apogee of
tedium to me, but I'm not one to judge) to be less of a drain on
Wikipedia's brainpower than many other outlets. Which do you think
does more damage to Wikipedia on the whole: WikiChess or VFD disputes?
Of course, the latter can't be cut out, but I think the order of
magnitude of distraction, hurt feelings, creation of trolls and
vandals, etc. makes the WikiChess thing look fairly innocuous by
comparison. Seems to me that there are seveal quasi-arguments for its
favor and only a few quasi-arguments to its detriment -- might as well
keep it around until some of those quasi-arguments either way become
things which can be empirically supported in some way. Who knows what
it might lead to eventually? No need to nip it in the bud until it is
proven problematic.

That being said, it shouldn't be in the article namespace, but I
assume that's been taken care of already.

FF