from_name: Ryan Lane

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Distributed Authentication

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee <at> piclab.com> writes:

>
> > Drupal has a distributed authentication system
> > (http://drupal.org/node/312)...
>
> If we did do something like this, we would probably use
> a standard like LDAP or ACAP rather than a home-grown one.
>

I have implemented an LDAP authentication patch. It allows authentication from
multiple domains, as well as the local mysql database (it even allows the user
to choose which to authenticate against).

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LDAP_Authentication

At the current time it will authenticate, and store some user information in an
LDAP database. I plan on making an LDAP schema for user attributes so that all
user preferences and such can be stored in LDAP. With user preferences stored in
LDAP, not only will users be able to authenticate from a central location to all
supported wikis, but their preferences would also roam from wiki to wiki.

Currently unsupported is "mail me a new password", unless the wiki allows
authentication through the local database, and even then the user would not be
able to change his LDAP password (you have to remember your old password to
change it). Hopefully, this feature will be added soon.

I do believe this would be a good option for a technical Single Sign On
solution, but thats just my opinion.

Ryan Lane
NAVOCEANO


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Suggestions for a work-safe encyclopedia

body:
On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> geni said:
> >> That would be the article illustrated by Manet's Olympia
> >> Michaelangelo's David and Goya's nude and clothed Maja?
> >
> > Yup for some reason artitisic nudes seem to have more accptance
>
> And did you happen to look at Ms Winslet's pose?

Bit hard to tell really it was mostly hidden

> Actually this is one thing that I can state with confidence is *NOT* in
> the article you referenced.
> I think we've been going around in circles for a while now.  To summaries,
> we differ strongly about whether Ms Winslet's mammary glands are so
> horrific that the world needs to be protected from them.  I'm confident
> that yours is the view of a tiny minority of people, so I won't waste any
> more time on it.

Persoanly I would not have described south america as a tiny minority.


subject: [WikiEN-l] One argument I do not find compelling

body:
> It doesn't matter how many people live in India, Ms Winslet still does not
> act in the Bombay talkies.  For all I know she may want to, but as far as
> I'm aware she has not taken that career path.

You have missed my point. India is a democracy as such there is
probably some vague correrlation between it's film rateing system and
what the people want. Your  example appears to be outnumbered by 5 to
1

> And children of 13 and above could.  I'm sure the brief nude scene was of
> far less concern than the scenes of extreme horror, which I touched on in
> an earlier email.

Nope sub 12 doesn't allow any nudity. 12 allows brief nudity

> > Look up the defintion of grundyism
>
> Narrowmindedness, prudery.  "What would Mrs Grundy say?"

clearly we are using different dictionaries here

> Absolutely.  The movie won awards, amongst others, for its direction,
> cinematography, art direction and set decoration.  One person voting to
> keep in the current IfD said "The way Rose was introduced into the film
> was through the finding of her sketch in the safe. I thought the nude
> scene was an important part of the love story."  That scene had to work,
> had to look beautiful.  It is certainly one of the most memorable parts of
> the movie, the one that links the finding of the portrait, near the start,
> and the return of the jewel to the sea near the end.

I'm not arguing with the quality of the scene I'm arguing with the
quality of the particular frame we had in the article.


from_name: Joseph Osborne

subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Right if any one wants to see her more then just a Photo then lit them PAY the sites for it> No link just a photo of her.

David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:Kevin Rector (krector at Compco.com) [050419 02:40]:

> I would think that we should be hesitant to link to any web sites (porn
> or otherwise) whose primary commodity is selling access or "memberships"
> to the website, and more liberal with links to other types of
> industries.

Possibly. But (1) it's an editorial judgement call and (2) the page is
clearly tagged [[Category:Porn stars]].

- d.

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare
> bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain
> text just does not cut it.

Just be aware that HTML mail often looks *like crap*.

Rendering between different e-mail readers is very inconsistent, and
security options and other limitations may often give you broken
illegible images, etc.

If you'd like to give a bad impression of Wikimedia, then please use
HTML mail. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20050418/89a2c94d/attachment.pgp


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:12:23PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
>
>
> Cormac Lawler a ?crit:
> >On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Cormac Lawler said:
> >>
> >>>Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
> >>>
> >>>I am trying to write a html email
> >>
> >>I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to
> >>*reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html?  Text
> >>is much nicer.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Fair comment, but could i ask that that discussion take place on
> >quarto-l? Just to add, that it is not just *my* impulse to produce
> >this mail - I have simply volunteered to do it.
> >Cormac
>
> yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a
> number of reason (such as links).
>
> Ant

I'm not sure I agree with that estimation of the majority.  I think that
a vast majority would, in fact, probably not much care one way or
another, especially since most graphical email clients turn bare URLs
into links automatically, even in text-only emails.  Meanwhile, HTML
emails are almost undreadable for those of us whose primary email is
read in a text-only fashion.  I actually delete 90% of HTML email
without even checking to see whether it's content is of any relevance to
my life for a number of reasons, including security issues, annoyance
factor, and basic convenience.

Text email is universal.  HTML email alienates a great many people.  If
I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.

That's not to say that there isn't a place for HTML emails, but I would
strongly recommend that emails not be sent in HTML form unless you are
positive that everybody receiving the email will be positively receptive
to that format.  If you really want to present information in an HTML
formatted manner, but aren't sure if everyone receiving the email will
be accepting of HTML emails, you might think about simply creating a
webpage somewhere and linking to it from a text email.

I'd say "Maybe that's just me," but I know for a fact it's not.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Daniel Wunsch

subject: [Wikitech-l] Remote Editing support

body:
hi!

> Both to increase submission volume/quality and to benefit
> Mediawiki-using sites, are there any plans to develop an XMLRPC style
> external editing protocol, such that editors like MarsEdit and ecto can
> interface with Mediawiki?

yes, quite a lot of plans.. see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Client
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Machine-friendly_wiki_interface
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiText_Transfer_Protocol

> Ideally they would be able to:
> Search for articles
> Edit the text of articles
> start new ones
> get internally generated lists (such as new articles, recently edited
> articles)
> revert pages, get access to previous versions' texts
>
> Any thoughts on whether this would be worthwhile?  Any other features
> which might be useful?

yes: resolve links between different mediawiki. instances.

daniel


subject: [Wikitech-l] Which PHP Accelerator to use

body:
Karthik Gopalakrishnan wrote:
> I have a huge doubt. I want to install a PHP Accelerator
> 1. Zend Optimizer 2.5.7
> 2. turck-mmcache-2.4.6
> 3. eaccelerator-0.9.2a
>
> Which is better to go for. I read that
> http://www.clarkconnect.org/forums/showflat.php?Board=webserver&Number=67958
>
> The website says eaccelerator is better. But I'm actually afraid if I
> i encounter some bugs when I go live with it.

We use Turck MMCache on Wikimedia, and it's served very well. MMCache is
no longer being maintained since the author was hired by Zend a while
ago, and iirc it doesn't support PHP 5.

eAccelerator is a derivitive of MMCache, continuing to maintain and
extend it since the original project was dropped. I'm using it
experimentally on my own site, on PHP 5; I haven't noticed any problems
but haven't extensively tested it.

These are both free/open source modules, like the PHP core itself.

> I think Zend Optimizer is more trustable. Please suggest me a good solution

Zend _Accelerator_ probably does a fine job, but it's not open source
(further I get the impression it's only available now as part of an
expensive 'Zend Platform' product). This may not make a difference to
you, but it is a factor in decisions for Wikimedia, and we haven't used it.

Zend Optimizer is a separate product, and seems to be not quite the same
thing.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050418/00fc361e/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:41:58PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
>
>
> When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic
> on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of
> the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?
>

Is the group of people discussing it on the quarto list the sum total of
people who will receive this email of which you speak?

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
> are under 18 - ?var is IIRC 16, Kzhr is 15 I think, and Ilyanep is 13.
> (I myself am 15, 16 in August).

I'm 19.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Kate Winslet

body:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 01:18:39PM -0700, Sean Barrett wrote:
> > > This is certainly better.
> >
> > No, it's not.
> >
> > RickK
>
> Yes, it is.
>

Well, this is productive.

Of course, RickK made a good point, whether he meant to make this point
in particular or not: One probably should not assume that just because
something looks better by one's own standards it is better by all
standards.  Clearly, there is still disagreement on the "better"-ness of
the current solution.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Karthik Gopalakrishnan

body:
Hi,

I have a huge doubt. I want to install a PHP Accelerator
1. Zend Optimizer 2.5.7
2. turck-mmcache-2.4.6
3. eaccelerator-0.9.2a

Which is better to go for. I read that
http://www.clarkconnect.org/forums/showflat.php?Board=webserver&Number=67958

The website says eaccelerator is better. But I'm actually afraid if I
i encounter some bugs when I go live with it.

I think Zend Optimizer is more trustable. Please suggest me a good solution

Bye,
Karthik.G


from_name: Faraaz Damji

subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to
> *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html?  Text
> is much nicer.

*Completely* agree.  I use my reader in text-only because HTML is, more
often than not, very annoying.  Maybe there could be a text-only and
HTML version?

--
Blog: http://frazzydee.ca

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d? s:- a--- C+++ UL++ P+ L+ E---- W++ N+ o+ K+ w+
O? M-- V? PS++ PE Y PGP++ t 5-- X+ R tv b++ DI++ D+
G++ e- h! !r !z
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 11:09:49PM +0200, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Faraaz Damji wrote:
>
> >Tony Sidaway wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to
> >>*reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html?  Text
> >>is much nicer.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >*Completely* agree.  I use my reader in text-only because HTML is, more
> >often than not, very annoying.  Maybe there could be a text-only and
> >HTML version?
> >
> Hoi,
> Quarto is a production where much effort is spend on producing a nice
> layout, this is to present what we do as well as possible. Without HTML
> it does not make the same impact. When you want to see what it looks
> like you can find old versions in the final format. It really looks much
> better that the pre production stuff.
>
> It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes
> superior.

That's nicely condescending-sounding.  Of course, this has nothing to do
with "geek factor" and everything to do with accessibility.  As I tried
to convey in other emails on the subject, HTML format is fine if the
only people you're talking to are people who are, by mere virtue of
being part of your target demographic, inclined to prefer HTML emails.
If that's not the case, though, providing HTML versions and no text
versions essentially makes your email so much garbage to many people.

This is akin to the arguments I see for making every website in the
world Flash-enhanced.  When I comment on the undesirability of Flash in
many cases, I might get the "You Linux geeks are all the same!"
response, but more than that I'm thinking about the millions of Web
surfers on dial-up, the Flash version conflicts, the security issues
involving remotely executed code, and so on.  I'll add your "text has a
high geek factor" pat on the head to the same wastebin as "You Linux
geeks are all the same!"

If you really want the thing to look nice and be inaccessible to many,
perhaps you should distribute it as a PDF attachment instead of an HTML
email.  The preferred reaction to finding out that some people don't
like HTML cluttering up their inboxes, though, might simply be to
provide an option for either text or HTML at subscription time.  That
way, people get what they want, rather than getting the entire HTML
layout when all they want is information.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Conflict between two Wikipedias

body:
> >Again I would like to point out that you are
> emphasising >what is
> >"right" or "correct". Why does that matter? Why
> should >we care?
>
> I am emphasising what is right because that is what we
> should be striving towards. Just because any
> Moldovans, who you seem to think are the only ones who
> have an authoritative right to a say in this, haven't
> complained, doesn't mean that the idea of is right.

Why should we be striving towards it when the current solution works
just fine and we have only received complaints from foreigners?

> Now, you're going to say again something along the
> lines of "Yes, you keep on using the word right. Who
> cares what's right". Well, we *should* care about
> what's right! For example, we couldn't go ahead now
> and form a Romanian Wikipedia without diacritical
> symbols, just because the Romanian community supports
> it, even when it is incorrect. In this example,
> writing Romanian with no diacritics would be easier
> and, hypothetically, let's say it would be supported
> by the community, which , hypothetically, is made up
> of 1 person. Does that mean we should actually
> implement that proposal? Just because the "community"
> agrees to something doesn't make it right, doesn't
> mean that it's correct for, in the example, the
> ro.wiki to be written without diacritic symbols.

Actually, if the entire community supports it, it's fine. The thing is
though the system is self-correcting. If you have a community of 3
people, as in the case of mo.wiki, who vote unanimously to do
something that's "wrong", if it's truly a problem eventually somebody
will come along and complain, or try to fix it, or whatever. That just
hasn't happened yet.

> The same goes for mo.wiki. There is basically *one*
> Moldovan Cyrillic contributor, and you're saying that
> just because he hasn't complained, then it's OK,
> because no Moldovan contributor has so far complained.
> Why? Because *there is no Moldovan wiki community*.
> There is just one person! I think there might have
> actually been a Moldovan contributor at ro.wiki which
> is no longer active. But that's about all. For that
> reason, we can't base ourselves here on "we do what
> the Moldovans think, because they're the ones who
> should have the most say." If we go by that principle,
> then we won't get anywhere, because there isn't yet,
> unfortunately, a Moldovan Wikipedia community.

Why? As I noted above, it is a self-correcting system.

Every time a Wikipedia is started, the founding contributors make
important decisions. Sometimes these are bad decisions which, when
more people join, are struck down democratically. But so far this has
not happened. As they say, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". And it
ain't broke, at least not according to the only Moldovan user to weigh
in on the issue. When more Moldovans arrive, if they have a problem
with it, that issue can be addressed /then/ and it can be "fixed".

 > So, as you keep on blaming the ro.wiki community for,
> there's nothing wrong with us getting involved. The
> same goes in your case - there's nothing wrong about
> you getting involved, as a non-Moldovan, in this
> issue. We *all*, as Wikimedia contributors, have a
> right to involve ourselves in *all* Wikimedia issues
> as long as we are adequately informed. And I think
> both of us, and many other people who have given an
> opinion, have done so in an informed, comprehensive
> manner.

The difference is, I have actually contributed my time and effort to
mo.wiki. I have transliterated articles, reverted vandalism, and the
like. ro.wikipedians, on the other hand, only heard about it just now
from your userpage, and as you can see on the talkpages on mo:, all
they ever do is come over and write "This is wrong, it shouldn't be
this way. --Romanianfromrowiki" and then retreat back to ro.wikipedia
never to appear again.

Thus, even though I am not a Moldovan I consider myself a part of the
community, and I see you and other ro.wikipedians as outsiders - you
come along and complain about the status quo without giving anything,
and on top of that you're not Moldovans.

At the moment, mo.wikipedia is my temporary home. As you can perhaps
observe from my activity on various Wikipedias, I'm not really active
much on en.wiki anymore, but I make tiny contributions here and there
to other Wikis. However I have recently focused a bit on mo.wikipedia,
writing new content, transliterating existing content, replacing
content duplication with interwiki redirects, etc.

 > >There have been
> >no complaints from actual Moldovans, only from
> >Romanians, and they are
> >all politically motivated.
>
> I don't think you can actually say that all the
> comments are politically motivated. If you read the
> discussion page at ro.wiki, you will see that many
> Romanians actually enforce the idea of having a
> Moldovan Wikipedia, and recognise the need for one. I
> don't think you can blame most of the community for
> being either superficial or politically-motivated.
> Most of us have said that - yes, having a mo.wiki is
> OK, even in Cyrillic script, but it needs to be at a
> separate subdomain, due to all the reasons that I've
> mentioned in my numerous past messages.

What, then, do these Romanians say about the fact that any
Latin-script content is sure to be a near-duplication of Romanian
content?

mo.wiki started out as a biscriptal Wikipedia, but following
complaints from Danutz, the policy was re-evaluated and it was decided
that we should only use Cyrillic because Latin script-users needs are
already satisfied closely by ro.wikipedia.

 > >My solution is practical, and currently it is working
> >fine.
>
> True. By the way, don't think I'm trying to argue with
> you just for the sake of it. Your POV is actually a
> very legitimate one on this issue and it is the most
> practical. I "admit" that as you said. And it's
> working fine. At the moment. What I mean by at the
> moment is that 1) it will get more problematic in the
> future and it's better to solve the problems now and
> 2) you can't really call it working, because the is 1
> contributor! There is basically no community yet.

We can go down that road when we come to it. We don't need to deal
with future problems now. And you are wrong - while there is only one
actual Moldovan, I have worked a lot on mo.wiki, and there have been
minor contributions from a couple of others as well.

> I see there have been people (it may be the same user
> as the Cyrillic one, actually I think it is) who have
> already made Latin script contributions. Already it's
> starting to become problematic. What happens if a user
> comes and makes Latin script contributions? Should we
> simply move them to ro.wiki? Or should we keep the
> mo.wiki a biscriptal confusion?

Move them? Why not redirect them? In every one of these cases,

> There have been many cases where a single contributor
> has started something, which is not technically right,
> and then when a larger community came, the project had
> to be moved somewhere. You must realise that by
> putting only Cyrillic content at mo.wiki, we become
> terribly biased towards that script? Why should
> Wikipedia, the free, NPOV encyclopedia, be like that?
> And why should we then have to change everything when
> Moldovan Latin users come over and start adding
> content to the mo.wiki?

If it's NPOV, then why does Cyrillic get the short end of the stick?
You say it's because it's a minority and it's not official. But in the
world of NPOV, it doesn't matter whether or not a POV is widely held
or officially endorsed. What matters is that it's POV.

And I don't see the problem with crossing that bridge when we come to it.

> >the only people who have a problem with it are
> >Romanians who are trying to meddle in the affairs of
> >the Moldovan
> >Wikipedia for political reasons and replace the
> >perfectly working
> >status quo with some sort of cumbersome change that
> >they say is
> >technically correct, which will make the URL longer
> >and require the
> >assistance of a developer.
>
> You're saying this as if it would require registering
> a new domain, setting up a new interface and writing
> new software! It's really not that hard to make a new
> subdomain! It's being done all the time, when new
> language projects are being launched. So what if we
> require the assistance of a developer? I think that
> you really are too practical - just for the sake of
> easiness and practicality, it doesn't matter how wrong
> something is, or how biased it is, you won't support
> it  just because it requires more work. I believe that
> we must first be correct, then practical. Being
> practical now will just cause more problems later on.

All the time? Do you have any idea how extremely infrequently new
language subdomains are set up? And for the last 4 or 5 new ones, I
had to request it personally from a developer, sometimes a few times
before it actually got done. It would require a new subdomain, yes,
which would be longer than the existing one and would take developer
time that is currently being spent on much less frivelous issues. A
new interface would be needed, yes, but that would happen even without
a new subdomain. New software? No, mediawiki 1.4 works just fine.

> Finally, I'm not happy with the status quo. I've tried
> until now numerous ways to negotiate, I started
> writing on this mailing list, and yet nothing has
> worked. The status quo has just been maintained, and
> you haven't considered the point of view than anyone
> else. Honestly, that's really frustrating. I mean,
> I've written many messages that just basically say the
> same thing over and over again -- we've covered no
> ground here. And you can't say I haven't been
> reasonable. I've proposed something that doesn't
> denigrate Moldovan Cyrillic, that is perfectly fair to
> it, gives it space to grow, but at the same time
> doesn't put it in favour of Moldovan Latin. Yes, it's
> practically harder, but I don't see anything
> theoretically wrong with it. On the practical side, I
> will go and contact a developer to do it if we reach
> concensus. That's not that hard a move. Neither is the
> whole setting up. It's not as if you now have to go
> and waste a week's work on setting up a new subdomain!

Ahh, but there's where our opinions differ majorly. I see the using of
a separate -and longer - subdomain for Cyrillic not as making it so it
the situation is fair and balanced. I see it as making it so that it
puts Moldovan Latin on a pedestal compared to Cyrillic. So what if
it's majority and official? That doesn't mean it should get the
mansion while Cyrillic gets the one-room apartment.

And actually, it would probably take well over a week for me to be
able to get somebody to set up a new subdomain.

You say you're not happy with the status quo. Not to be disrespectful,
but why should I care? You have not contributed your time to mo.wiki,
and you are not Moldovan. You are speaking entirely from a Romanian
point of view, and I strongly believe that the decisions made at a
Wikipedia shouldn't be able to be second-guessed by other Wikipedia
communities.

Why aren't you happy with the status quo? Evaluate this, with your
Wikipedia usage habits, for whom does it cause a problem? You. Do you
visit mo.wiki a lot? No. Do you read it or edit it a lot? No. Have you
contributed a lot to it? No. Do you even consider your mother tongue
to be Moldovan rather than Romanian? No. So why, then, should we give
your opinion more than a microscopic weight? You not being happy with
the status quo doesn't count for a lot if the status quo doesn't
actually have any impact on your Wikipedia usage.

Mark

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Alphax

subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Arno M wrote:

>The bowdlerising project does ssem to have died a quiet death , all right.
>
>Examples of pages with links to porn/adult sites in them (all found in 20 seconds):
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenna_Jameson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_James and
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Carey.
>
>I fail to see any constructive purpose to them, and and any school that can reasonably
>be described as decent or respnsible is (not) going to love them.
>
>
>
Well, the official websites of people on
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_big-bust_models_and_performers]
are fairly likely to be, aren't they? Don't say you weren't warned.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Porn_stars] might also have
something to do with it.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


body:
Oh. Sorry. But you were already involved in Wikipedia when you were 18
and even younger, no?

Mark

On 18/04/05, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason <avarab at gmail.com> wrote:
> > are under 18 - ?var is IIRC 16, Kzhr is 15 I think, and Ilyanep is 13.
> > (I myself am 15, 16 in August).
>
> I'm 19.
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Bowdlerpedia--go got it!

body:
David Gerard said:
> Tony Sidaway (minorityreport at bluebottle.com) [050418 17:37]:
>> Alex Regh said:
>
>> > The problem therefore is, in my opinion, how we can find a way
>> > between the need to inform (which does IMO include pictures) and a
>> > need to remain accessible to as many people as possible.
>
>> I have an idea.  Let's licence the material using the GFDL!  Then
>> anybody who wants to make a bowdlerpedia can do so.
>
>
> Or they can claim they do, like kids.net.au, and not actually do much
> work in that direction!

http://www.kids.net.au/encyclopedia-wiki/cu/Cunt

This is probably not the way to do it. :)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
David Gerard said:

> Why remove this commercial page in particular, rather than any other
> company page on Wikipedia? That is, this doesn't seem to be the
> criterion commercial links are added or removed on for other articles,
> so this seems a novel policy.

That's what I thought last time someone suggested some removals from
another sexual subject.  Different criteria may be applied to sexual sites
(I'm open to the possibility, though it seems far-fetched if the site is
otherwise encyclopedic) but if we do adopt a "no commercial links"
approach to sexual topics we should not pretend that they're the same
criteria that would be applied to, say, sports.


from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)

I am trying to write a html email which will be used as the release
message for Quarto. Work in progress, ie the html code can be seen at:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WQ#Publicising_Quarto_by_html_email

The text I'm using at the moment is a straight copy from the meta
release message page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WQ/2/Release_message

My problem is that, working with Dreamweaver on a Mac (OSX), I can't
get non-English or non-Roman - specifically Japanese - characters to
work in my version. I have copied the source code from the page as
well as the display text (and edit-mode text). I have tried copying
the text with text encoding changed on my browser (Safari) - Ascander
even copied the Japanese text with different coding (?) into the page
but none of these work. I can copy Japanese etc. text into Word and
Text Edit, but for some reason, I cannot then get these to save and
display the file as a normal html file that opens and functions
properly in a browser. Simple text is the only program that does this
for me but it doesn't seem to support non-English/Roman script :(

Can anyone help me with this predicament? If you can, can you spell it
out in nice and easy steps? Also, if you have a comment to make on the
mail itself, you could go to the quarto-l mailing list - I have only
posted here as I haven't found any absolute solutions there.

Thanks
Cormac


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
I use Windows almost always, use M$ Office, and actually don't even
have Linux installed on my system.

I am by no measure a "Linux geek", and whatever geek I have in me is
certainly not the type that effects my preferences on these sort of
things, though I will admit that I tend to prefer notepad to wysiwyg
editors for html.

I don't know any programming languages save what QBasic I learned from
my grandpa when I was 4 or 5, and HTML if that can be considered a
programming language.

Yet I still prefer plain text e-mails to HTML e-mails for most of the
reasons that have already been stated.

Anthere said that subscription is not mandatory, and that if you don't
want an e-mail you don't want to subscribe.

What about the people who DO want an e-mail, just not in HTML? Are we
going to exclude them just because we have such high standards?

Does anybody even realise that HTML e-mails display very differently
in different clients?

Or that many people have turned support for HTML e-mails off because
of 1-pixel images as described above and other malicious uses of HTML?

Why not offer an option?

Or even better, why not send people a plain-text e-mail with a LINK to
an actual website with the newsletter?

And I'm sorry, but "quarto" just sounds to me like an aborted attempt
at a cartoon villain. When I say it it sounds like "court-o" or
"cord-o". And really, I don't think it sounds nice. Why not just
"quarterly report" like the rest of the world does?

Mark

On 18/04/05, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Tony Sidaway wrote:
>
> >Gerard Meijssen said:
> >
> >
> >>It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes
> >> superior.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Come again?  What's geeky about sending information in a form that
> >*doesn't* need a complex parser to unmangle
> >
> Hoi,
> It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare
> bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain
> text just does not cut it. Horses for courses and, presentation is king.
> We do need a nice presentation and it coming from us, it will not have
> micro dots. This is the stuff that we send to people who contribute
> money to inform them how well we do, therefore it needs the glossy look.
> It is not just for us who already know how we are doing/what we are doing.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


body:
Puddl Duk said:
> On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>> geni said:
>> >> I'm sorry, but what a load of bullocks.
>> >>
>> >> Christiaan
>> >
>> > are you seriously trying to suggest that there is a significant
>> > percentage of earth population that would not be offended by the the
>> > goatse?
>>
>> I think they might snicker a bit and show it to their friends.
>>
>
> Excellent case for editorial judgment. Unless we want to create a site
> that appeals to, or looks like it was created by, snickering
> juveniles.

I agree.  I don't see much encyclopedic value in putting up Mr goatse.  I
just challenge the idea that it's such a shocking picture. It's a bit
pathetic, the poor man must be in considerable discomfort, and it's very
demeaning.
But please, let's not pretend that it's as shocking as many encyclopedic
pictures that we do carry with good reason.  We've even got apicture of a
chap about to have his head blown off by a uniformed nutter with a
revolver, and I shouldn't be surprised if we had a picture of that poor
napalmed little girl (Kim Phuc Phan Thi, who fortunately was taken to
hospital by the photographer and now works as a UN ambassador for
children).
Why do people go out of their way to denounce this or that picture as
shocking, when there are photographs like that around to remind us of what
is really shocking about human behavior?


from_name: Wouter Steenbeek

body:
>If you look there, you'll find that already, the majority of
>Wikipedians were born between 1977 and 1993. Obviously if you consider
>18 to be the limit of adulthood, all those on the list born after
>1985-1986 are "children", and if you consider 21 to be the limit of
>adulthood, that would make it 1982-1983, and if you consider it 30
>(which some do), it would be 1974-1975.
>
>Either way, that leaves you with a great deal of Wikipedians.
>
>?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason, Kzhr (prominent Wikipedian and sysop from
>ja:), and Ilyanep are all examples of Wikipedians you might know who
>are under 18 - ?var is IIRC 16, Kzhr is 15 I think, and Ilyanep is 13.
>(I myself am 15, 16 in August).
>
You're right. But all of you must be extremely intelligent. AEvar is a
thousand times more fluent in English than I am, despite of his Icelandicity
(yes, this is a neologism...). All of you reason like adults. Pentiumforever
probably intended the modal, representative children, not adolescent
prodigies.

Wouter

_________________________________________________________________
Spreek vrienden en familie met MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Nude Kate Winslet Picture Nonsense

body:
Rick said:
>
> --- Arno M <redgum46 at lycos.com> wrote:
>
>> Whatever happened to that bowderliasing project that
>> was promised in the wake of the autofellatio
>> picture? That seems to have dioed a quiet death.
>
> Who promised any such thing?

Yes, where did this strange idea come from?  Names and dates, please.
Diffs if possible, or mailing list urls.


body:
Rick said:
>
> --- geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yuo appear to have forgotten one of the key points
>> of this project.
>> this is to try and make information availible to
>> everyone.
>>
>> --
>> geni
>
> Aren't those images Information?
>
"Information" here seems to mean "information that is deemed acceptable"
and "Everyone" means "all people who deem that information to be
acceptable."
Nobody else counts.  Encyclopedic standards do not count.

Fortunately that description of the project is a fantasy.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Cormac Lawler said:
> Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
>
> I am trying to write a html email

I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to
*reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html?  Text
is much nicer.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Fred Bauder said:
> It is the Prurient content....

Um, Fred...she's a porn star.  Why do think anybody would write an article
about a porn star?  People will come to that article wanting to know about
her, and they'll probably have a lot of prurient interest in her.  Yes,
they'll want to see her getting rammed, eating pussy, or whatever else it
is that makes her famous enough to get into Wikipedia.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Kevin Rector said:
> I would agree with Tony with a caveat. For a sports related link you
> can often get a lot of information. For instance if you go to
> www.nashvillepredators.com you can get significant information about
> the team (for instance you can get the box scores for every game the
> team has ever played). This information is all freely available to
> anyone who wants it. However, -most- adult oriented sites simply exist
> to take your money and show you porn.

Pointless linking to a pay-only site, I agree, or one that only contains a
negligible come-on for a pay-only section.  One that shows a good number
of free stills or even movie clips, on the other hand, I think is
appropriate.
I would not object to the removal of links to sites that contain
pornography without some kind of age disclaimer page (The funniest one I'v
seen recently has a very sexy looking come-on: "Under 18s, click here
NOW!!!!" and it takes you off to disney.com or whatever).


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Kevin Rector said:
> Yeah, to be clear, I'm making no comment on the "goodness" or "badness"
> of the article it's content or anything at all to do with the article
> in question, but the topic of linking to "commercial" sites.

How about the external link to mcdonalds.com on [[McDonalds Corporation]]
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcdonalds_Corporation )?  I popped on over
there, selected my country (UK), and was promptly shown lots of happy
smily kids stuffing themselves with junk food, and all kinds of propaganda
saying how healthy their revolting, fat-filled crap is.  I hope they get
taken big one day by all the fat people whom they have made ill with their
targetted advertising and false claims, but somehow it would seem wrong to
me if the article about this company didn't contain a link to their crappy
website.


subject:
[WikiEN-l] The horror of it all (was: Suggestions for a work-safe
	encyclopedia)

body:
Poor, Edmund W said:

>
> If your friend or co-worker was on a diet (perhaps for medical
> reasons), how often would you amuse yourself by teasing him, "Hey,
> Billy, want some ice cream? It's chocolate, yer favorite!" Knock it
> off, will ya?

This seems a very strange line of argument.  Are you comparing Ms Winslet
to a large dollop of ice cream?  Who is this person on a diet?  Should I
perhaps stop consuming food in public, lest I entice someone else to
over-eat?  How about those horror movies I was chatting about?  It doesn't
bear thinking about, does it?  What kind of appetite would *they* incite?


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> Cormac Lawler said:
> > Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
> >
> > I am trying to write a html email
>
> I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to
> *reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html?  Text
> is much nicer.
>

Fair comment, but could i ask that that discussion take place on
quarto-l? Just to add, that it is not just *my* impulse to produce
this mail - I have simply volunteered to do it.
Cormac


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Kevin Rector said:
> Right, I hate McDonalds and wish they'd go bankrupt (not likely).
> However, the McDonalds website does provide (at least the US version)
> "nutrition" information as well as other information. The website isn't
> the company's primary commodity, that's all I'm saying. I'm pretty sure
> we're agreeing on this one.

Well in the case of porn actresses, the website isn't the primary
commodity either.  And porn is considerably less unhealthy to the consumer
than fat food.


subject: [Wikitech-l] hardware order

body:
mbecker ? wrote:
> Speaking of the recent hardware order...
> No one seems to have addressed the issue of ordering Intel based
> machines over AMD based machines brought up here:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hardware_ordered_March_2005
>
> We're getting more bang for our buck when we purchase AMD machines,

Can you provide actual benchmark results and a price/performance comparison?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050418/d2f52498/attachment.pgp>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Why linking an image gives less choice to the reader

body:
Chad Perrin said:
>
> Just a thought:  How about using CSS to show a block of color of the
> size and dimensions of an image that might be deemed "inappropriate" by
> popular standards of prudishness, with the ability to replace/cover
> that block with the image itself by clicking on it?

Yes, this is very much along the lines I've been thinking. Give em their
figleaf.  Figleafing should be configurable (on or off by default) and the
user should be able to set his preferences by cookie, without logging in.


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] pitching an idea

body:
On 4/18/05, Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
>
> We already have Wikipedia and Wikinews.  Do we have a Wikipinion?
> Perhaps this is the technical solution to the idea of a community-driven
> open-contribution collection of opinion columns.  Where a given
> topic/heading exists, op/ed articles can be written by different people
> and the best-regarded among them for their clear and popularly agreeable
> presentations can rise to the top as the cream of the crop, as 'twere,
> by way of a voting/rating system.  Then, perhaps, the top-rated article
> would be the first thing presented with explicit links to the next five
> (or however many) highly rated version and a catch-all link where a list
> of all of the versions might be located.

What you've described is much more the domain of the blog, not really
a wiki. Probably the thing that comes closest are Scoop-based sites,
such as Kuro5hin (tech) and DailyKOS (political), where the features
are designed for the type of interaction you describe.

> It seems to me like too good an idea to pass up, really, and if this
> community doesn't like it enough to implement it, I'm sure a community
> for such can be generated from the luminiferous ethere of the Internet.
>
> Of course, I'm so busy as it is that if I end up having to create it
> myself it'll probably take three years to get around to it.

They do exist today, but usually the battle lines are drawn up in
terms of polarizing left- and right-wing opinion. It would be
interesting if a community could develop that would tolerate and
engage in civil discourse given the vitriolic opinion pieces that tend
to show up on these sites. I'm skeptical, but would love to be proved
wrong.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
> Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> > I use Windows almost always, use M$ Office, and actually don't even
> > have Linux installed on my system.
> >
> > I am by no measure a "Linux geek", and whatever geek I have in me is
> > certainly not the type that effects my preferences on these sort of
> > things, though I will admit that I tend to prefer notepad to wysiwyg
> > editors for html.
> >
> > I don't know any programming languages save what QBasic I learned from
> > my grandpa when I was 4 or 5, and HTML if that can be considered a
> > programming language.
> >
> > Yet I still prefer plain text e-mails to HTML e-mails for most of the
> > reasons that have already been stated.
> >
> > Anthere said that subscription is not mandatory, and that if you don't
> > want an e-mail you don't want to subscribe.
> >
> > What about the people who DO want an e-mail, just not in HTML? Are we
> > going to exclude them just because we have such high standards?
>
> We will not exclude them. Anyone can also see the quarto out on most
> project main pages and it is announced as well in mailing list.
>
> What we are currently trying to do is to set up an additional system to
> announce it.

Right, and the "additional system"  you are setting up excludes those people.

> > Does anybody even realise that HTML e-mails display very differently
> > in different clients?
> >
> > Or that many people have turned support for HTML e-mails off because
> > of 1-pixel images as described above and other malicious uses of HTML?
> >
> > Why not offer an option?
>
> Are you ready to take care of the development on that topic ?
>
>
> > Or even better, why not send people a plain-text e-mail with a LINK to
> > an actual website with the newsletter?
>
> Because we can not send A link. Depending on the language people talk,
> they will choose amongst for example 15 different links.

Why not direct them to a site offering a choice of language? Or have
15 different links in the e-mail? Or have them choose their preferred
language when they sign for the list in the first place?

> > And I'm sorry, but "quarto" just sounds to me like an aborted attempt
> > at a cartoon villain. When I say it it sounds like "court-o" or
> > "cord-o". And really, I don't think it sounds nice. Why not just
> > "quarterly report" like the rest of the world does?
> >
> > Mark
>
> Because Wikipedia is not doing things like the rest of the world does.

If we're so intent on doing things differently, why not create a whole
new spelling system just for Wikipedia? Wykkypedya, ddjaae fryy
ensyyklyyypeedyya, lykz twu dwu ttjyynkz dfrryyntliiyy frwom ddjeea
rheestj uobfvh ddjaae vwyyryld, swwo myttsj swwo ddjaet vwiyy gwoow
awowt uobfvh uoowr wyye zjyyyst swwwo vweyy kyyn byy dfyyrnt. Or why
not force everybody who deals with the foundation to use a new
currency just for us called Wikimedian Gildollrils whose exchange rate
is reset monthly by a random-number generator?

Just because we take a different approach to writing an
encyclopaedia/dictionary/etc., doesn't mean we have to do everything
differently. As I said before "quarterly report" is already a familiar
term to many people, but "quarto" sounds dorky and not serious.
"quarterly report" doesn't convey to me a sense of "We are just like
everybody else".

If we want to use different terminology, why not use it for
everything? We can call an encyclopaedia a Encyclo (sounds just as
cute as quarto), we can call "foundation" Foundo, we can call "board"
Boardo, we can call "fund drive" Fundo, we can call "designated agent"
Designato, mailinglist can be called Listo, organisation members can
be called Orgos or Membos, and Jimbo Wales can be the Foundo - but
then that conflicts with our new term for "foundation". So perhaps we
can call him Origino?

Mark

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Viajero

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> It's that they ENTICE.

Well, by the same measure we should also get rid of those salacious
pictures of well-rounded wine glasses on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine because they encourage my latent
alcoholism.

V.


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: REDIRECT to anchor

body:
On 4/17/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>  From what I can see, inter-wiki redirects have been disabled. For
> example, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User_talk:Timwi no longer
> redirects you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Timwi but
> instead displays the redirection as a big link. I would imagine the
> rationale being that this makes the redirects easier to edit.

Ah, I hadn't realised that. I remember hearing that prefixes not
marked as "internal" were no longer valid for redirections, but it
seems you are right that they've all been disabled (unless there's
just some bug somewhere).  They've always been kind of controversial,
but I think there may be justifiable uses, for which a from= parameter
system would end up making sense. Maybe not; maybe a more traditional
"See also:" is good enough...

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: John Fader

subject:
[Wikitech-l] new handling on en wikipedia for image: pages of
	commons images

body:
Hi,
  There appears to be a change in the way en wikipedia handles the
image: page of an image that's hosted on commons.

Until very recently (today?) viewing such an image page showed the
"this page does not exist" stuff, but did contain a link to the
corresponding image page on commons.  Now the text "This file is a
shared upload and may be used by other projects." appears, and there's
no link to the commons page.

As one can't easily see the source or licence info for a commons image
anymore (cut'n'paste is required now), this is somewhat suboptimal.
--
John Fader


from_name: Rob

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fwd: Block

body:
User:147.72.93.172/147.72.93.199 has for some time
been a troublesome presence on the Pittsburgh
Tribune-Review article.  He has made some valid
points, but they are lost amid a torrent of claims of
libel, legal threats, and general rudeness.  Earlier
today he removed a large amount of material from
Talk:Pittsburgh Tribune-Review  without archiving and
replaced it with the words "Edited to allow more
space."  I reverted and asked him not to do it again
on his user talk page.  He blanked the entire page
this time. I warned him against vandalism and
reverted.  Another blank, another warning.  I blocked
at the third blanking of the talk page.

He has long claimed nearly everything someone posts to
the article or the talk page is libelous in some form
or another.  I am surprised to learn from the headers
of the email David Gerard forwarded that apparently
the anon is Carl Prine, an award winning PTR reporter.
 One would think a reporter wouldn't throw around
accusations of libel so casually.  In any case, much
of the material is standard talk page arguing, and the
material removed includes a lengthy polite attempt by
User:KeithTyler to reason with Prine, something that I
can't imagine any reasonable person objecting to.

- Gamaliel

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:45:54AM +0100, Cormac Lawler wrote:
> On 4/18/05, Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:41:58PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic
> > > on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of
> > > the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?
> > >
> >
> > Is the group of people discussing it on the quarto list the sum total of
> > people who will receive this email of which you speak?
> >
>
> The email is proposed to be distributed on the newly-created
> foundation-news-l mailing list, specifically set up for this purpose
> (and possibly other announcements though this hasn't been fully
> discussed). We've also thought about using it as a multilingual press
> release.
>
> On multilinguality, is it any easier to display a multilingual message
> in a plain text email? Or does this require the html solution? (This
> is why html was proposed in the first place.)
>

short answer: Yes.

slightly longer answer:  The language for which a given computer is set
up is the language in which that computer is going to be most easily
able to render text.  Thus, if you happen to be using an Arabic-language
version of a given OS, it will display text as Arabic where that is the
language in which the text is sent.  Unicode, after all, wasn't just
designed for the Web.

Now, granted, there are some languages that might suffer limitations in
this area, but they'll tend to suffer the same limitations with
displaying text in HTML as well.  After all, text is text: text in HTML
uses the same mechanism as text outside of HTML, unless the text is
actually rendered as a static image, which is another ball of wax
entirely.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:20:33AM +0200, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> >Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >
> >>It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare
> >>bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain
> >>text just does not cut it.
> >
> >
> >Just be aware that HTML mail often looks *like crap*.
> >
> >Rendering between different e-mail readers is very inconsistent, and
> >security options and other limitations may often give you broken
> >illegible images, etc.
> >
> >If you'd like to give a bad impression of Wikimedia, then please use
> >HTML mail. ;)
> >
> >-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> Hoi, :)
> An alternative is to send a .pdf. The bottom line is that it is well
> presented.
> Groetjes,
>    GerardM

Frankly, I'd rather have a PDF than an HTML email, though text would be
easiest as it doesn't require any special applications or email settings
to view.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: dpbsmith at verizon.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Titian, Titanic, and titillation

body:
The whole Kate Winslet thread seems amazingly overwrought, because it's
such a _bad_ example of a potential problem. It's a bad example because
it combines the _maximum_ of gratuitiousness (it's not at all necessary
to select this particular scene to illustrate the movie) with the
_minimum_ of indecency. The indecency, if there is any at all, exists
only because we know, are told, or understand the context to be erotic,
not because of the actual pictorial content.

On the other hand, Wikipedia contains a nice, large, high-resolution
image which Mark Twain called

     the foulest, the vilest, the obscenest picture the world
     possesses--Titian's Venus.  It isn't that she is naked
     and stretched out on a bed--no, it is the attitude of
     one of her arms and hand.  If I ventured to describe the
     attitude, there would be a fine howl--but there the
     Venus lies, for anybody to gloat over that wants to--and
     there she has a right to lie, for she is a work of art,
     and Art has its privileges.  I saw young girls stealing
     furtive glances at her; I saw young men gaze long and
     absorbedly at her; I saw aged, infirm men hang upon her
     charms with a pathetic interest.  How I should like to
     describe her--just to see what a holy indignation I
     could stir up in the world--just to hear the
     unreflecting average man deliver himself about my
     grossness and coarseness, and all that.

It is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Venus_of_Urbino.jpg and, of
course, linked in the Titian article. But I advise those who would fain
keep their fancy pure not to look at it, but to content themselves with
Mark Twain's description.

Nobody seems to be complaining about it.

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Suggestions for a work-safe encyclopedia

body:
BJ?rn Lindqvist wrote:

>>>This isn't something we can do anything about.  Perhaps you could try
>>>voting for some sane congresscritters.
>>>
>>I *knew* I shouldn't have mentioned Congress, but I was hoping
>>you wouldn't focus on that and ignore the key point, which is
>>that this happens at all kinds of companies and government
>>agencies around the world whether you like it or not. It's just
>>
>
>We would also like for the Saudi Geological Survey's professionals to
>contribute data to Wikipedia. I've heard that they are a very
>open-minded bunch. However, SGS is attached to the Ministry of
>Petroleum and Mineral Resources and it would be very unfortunate if
>something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman popped up while Fahd
>bin Abdul Aziz visits the office.
>
Indeed that's a very good point. The way I look at it is purely
utilitarian; would the Saudis be able to contribute a large
amount of good new content? If so, I would look for ways to
accommodate their sensitivities. After all, WP is supposed to
be a encyclopedia for everybody, not just another vehicle for
Europeans and Americans to impose their cultural standards on
the rest of the world, right?

To put it another way, if you had to make a choice between
a Kate Winslet picture and a thousand subject matter experts
working on WP fulltime, which would you go for? I'd delete
the image in a second.

Stan


body:
BJ?rn Lindqvist wrote:

>>picture I am about to allow through is work safe? Well I can hope it
>>is mention in the caption but if we take say this version of the
>>article it clearly isn't:
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Titanic_%281997_movie%29&oldid=10580793
>>
>
>Is this a purely theoretical discussion? Naming that page as an
>example of a page that isn't "work safe" is laughable. Surely, in most
>work-places it isn't work safe to waste your salaried time reading up
>about Titanic, but THAT PARTICULAR IMAGE does not make the page less
>"work safe" than it already is.
>
The long-forgotten genesis of this thread was that Sean Barrett
was observing that WP's current stance on images meant that a
WP user could run afoul of companies' anti-sexual-harassment
policies (images of nudes being considered to create a "hostile
work environment"); some of those policies require that
employees be terminated for violating them. So it's not at all
theoretical; I would advise any person who works for such a
company not to use WP for any purpose at all during work hours,
even if the intended use of WP is work-related.

Stan


from_name: BJörn Lindqvist

body:
> On the other hand, putting such images behind a link doesn't appear to
> affect anyone's choice negatively at all, except in the very very rare
> case where it is somehow important to be able to read the description of

To many people "autofellatio.jpg" is "Just An Image." It negatively
affects my choice just as much as putting some other of Wikipedia's
images behind a link. Therefore, why not hide ALL images behind links?
"images behind a link doesn't apper to affect anyone's choice
negatively at all"? Or is it "such images" that is important here? It
doesn't hurt to put kate_winslets_left_tit.jpg behind a link but it
hurts to put map_of_usa.jpg behind a link? Why does Wikipedia need
image at all? Can't they all be linked offsite? Odds are 100 to 1 in
favour that an image-link to an external site will load faster than to
an internal one.

--
mvh Bj?rn


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Tony

body:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:13:30AM +0000, jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk wrote:
> Tony said:
> >>> You asked them?  Anybody can play this bloody silly game.  Cut it out.
> >>
> >>
> >> He did provide evidence to support his assertion.
>
> >No, he only gave evidence of his having made some extremely
> >sweeping assumptions.
>
> This proves my suspicion that Tony perpetuates this debate. Although I wrote nothing inflammatory, Tony responds with a haemorrhagic expletive.
> I'm not a sociologist, and my "sweeping assumptions" are based on logic and not on statistics. Tony's kneejerk reaction can only be an indication that my "sweeping assumptions" are making him uncomfortable.
>

Actually, while I agree that Tony's manner is sometimes unnecessarily
abrasive, he makes a good point: you've provided evidence of nothing
substantive.  Your argument is based in the assumption that the entire
self-described Christian demographic of this world would object to a
given image, which is patently absurd.  If you had simply gentled your
"sweeping assumptions" with something to the effect of "many of whom
might find this objectionable", I'd think you had made no error in that
regard, but as it stands your argument lacks support.

In short, your sweeping assumptions might make other, wholly reasonable
people uncomfortable with your turn of phrase as well, even if they
agree with the position you endeavor to defend.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 02:52:02AM +0200, Anthere wrote:
>
>
> Chad Perrin a ?crit:
> >
> >slightly longer answer:  The language for which a given computer is set
> >up is the language in which that computer is going to be most easily
> >able to render text.  Thus, if you happen to be using an Arabic-language
> >version of a given OS, it will display text as Arabic where that is the
> >language in which the text is sent.  Unicode, after all, wasn't just
> >designed for the Web.
> >
> >Now, granted, there are some languages that might suffer limitations in
> >this area, but they'll tend to suffer the same limitations with
> >displaying text in HTML as well.  After all, text is text: text in HTML
> >uses the same mechanism as text outside of HTML, unless the text is
> >actually rendered as a static image, which is another ball of wax
> >entirely.
> >
> >--
> >Chad Perrin
> >[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
>
> This has already been discussed in length for the main page of Wikipedia.
> Displaying a certain content of text due to the language of the browser
> is not a good solution. It is not a solution that we direct readers to a
> *certain* type of quarto version depending on their browser settings.
>
> Have you a solution for this ?
>

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.  I apologize, but somewhere
in the midst of that I'm not following what you're saying.  Could you
perhaps rephrase or expand upon what you mean to say?

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: mbecker ™

subject: [Wikitech-l] hardware order

body:
Speaking of the recent hardware order...
No one seems to have addressed the issue of ordering Intel based
machines over AMD based machines brought up here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hardware_ordered_March_2005

We're getting more bang for our buck when we purchase AMD machines,
which is why I assume most of the machines on the purchase list are
AMD's. It's not clear what type of P4's (as listed on the order page)
are being purposed, however if they are comparable in price to any
Opteron, I'd highly suggest going with an Opteron. All of the software
we run should run just as easily on an AMD chipset because they
support the x86 instruction set. An Opteron has the added advantage of
having an on-die memory controller with high bandwidth connections to
the memory. This could certain help with the Apaches on retrieval
time, it certainly wouldn't hurt. If we are talking about something of
lower price than Opterons, it's still true that and AMD will be
compatible with our software and provide more bang for the buck. Those
who have donated the money for the new hardware expect us to spend it
responsibly and to put it to it's best use. We should not waste money
when there are clear alternatives.

On 4/18/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> hi
>
> I heard there was an hardware order recently.
> If so, could someone update this page accordingly ?
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hardware_ordered_March_2005
> thanks
>
> ant
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
Michael Becker


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: Block

body:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Carl Prine <cprine at tribweb.com>
Date: Apr 18, 2005 8:58 PM
Subject: Block
To: wikien-l-owner at wikipedia.org

Hello.  I have been trying to resolve a highly contentious issue for
some time.  I have sought to complain about it, but after doing so I
was "blocked" by the person I believe is the chief offender, Gamaliel.

Here is the background:

I would like to ask for assistance.

There has been an ongoing, bitter, dispute between me and two
"administrators" who have sought to selectively edit an entry on the
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Tribune-Review).

Earlier versions of the encyclopedia entry included patently
offensive, erroneous and frankly libelous contentions, including the
malicious lie that the newspaper had called the wife of a prominent
presidential candidate a "lesbian."

This aside was created by a user called Gamaliel, and supported, for a
time, by another user called Willcmw.

A review of their collaboration can be found at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gamaliel/Archive_3.

A mediator did arrive, long after I requested one, and long after I
had worn down the others, dissuading them from printing erroneous,
unlawful and unreferenced material.

While the material disappeared, thankfully, from the main entry, it
continued to appear in the Discussion section, and the incorrect info
continued to be retrieved by Internet search engines.

While I agree that it is generally important to maintain disputed
material in archive form, this likely shouldn't apply to words that
are malicious, offensive or libelous.

I would most appreciate someone taking care of this.

At 1644 EST (USA), I removed all of the disputed material at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pittsburgh_Tribune-Review, only to see
Gamaliel continue to replace it.

I feel this is vandalism.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Cormac Lawler a ?crit:
> On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>>Cormac Lawler said:
>>
>>>Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
>>>
>>>I am trying to write a html email
>>
>>I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to
>>*reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html?  Text
>>is much nicer.
>>
>
>
> Fair comment, but could i ask that that discussion take place on
> quarto-l? Just to add, that it is not just *my* impulse to produce
> this mail - I have simply volunteered to do it.
> Cormac

yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a
number of reason (such as links).

Ant


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Survey regarding email preference (was Re: html
	emails)

body:
Of course. Actually, I believe we've said that before - ie, that we
don't need to make accommodations for a minority, even if it is a
large one.

Mark

On 18/04/05, Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 01:58:52PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> > Chad Perrin wrote:
> > > Text email is universal.  HTML email alienates a great many people.  If
> > > I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
> >
> > Check out this survey, done in 2003:
> > http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt8/email_format_preferences.htm
> >
> > 87% of the non-technical survey group reported being able to read HTML
> > email, and 93% of the business group. HTML was reported to be preferred
> > over plain text by both groups.
> >
>
> Oh, well, since it's more than 50% we can afford to just shoot and bury
> the remainder.  Okay.  No problem, then.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Wikitech-l] hardware order

body:
First I need to know what I'm comparing to. What P4 CPU would we be
buying? Of course I can provide you with lots of benchmarks for AMD
chips vs. Intel chips that show the better price/performance. However
these would be meaningless without some comparison to the hardware we
care about.

On 4/18/05, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> mbecker ? wrote:
> > Speaking of the recent hardware order...
> > No one seems to have addressed the issue of ordering Intel based
> > machines over AMD based machines brought up here:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hardware_ordered_March_2005
> >
> > We're getting more bang for our buck when we purchase AMD machines,
>
> Can you provide actual benchmark results and a price/performance comparison?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Chad Perrin a ?crit:
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:12:23PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
>
>>
>>Cormac Lawler a ?crit:
>>
>>>On 4/18/05, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Cormac Lawler said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi - I need your help (whoever you are)
>>>>>
>>>>>I am trying to write a html email
>>>>
>>>>I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to
>>>>*reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html?  Text
>>>>is much nicer.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Fair comment, but could i ask that that discussion take place on
>>>quarto-l? Just to add, that it is not just *my* impulse to produce
>>>this mail - I have simply volunteered to do it.
>>>Cormac
>>
>>yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a
>>number of reason (such as links).
>>
>>Ant
>
>
> I'm not sure I agree with that estimation of the majority.  I think that
> a vast majority would, in fact, probably not much care one way or
> another, especially since most graphical email clients turn bare URLs
> into links automatically, even in text-only emails.  Meanwhile, HTML
> emails are almost undreadable for those of us whose primary email is
> read in a text-only fashion.  I actually delete 90% of HTML email
> without even checking to see whether it's content is of any relevance to
> my life for a number of reasons, including security issues, annoyance
> factor, and basic convenience.
>
> Text email is universal.  HTML email alienates a great many people.  If
> I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
>
> That's not to say that there isn't a place for HTML emails, but I would
> strongly recommend that emails not be sent in HTML form unless you are
> positive that everybody receiving the email will be positively receptive
> to that format.  If you really want to present information in an HTML
> formatted manner, but aren't sure if everyone receiving the email will
> be accepting of HTML emails, you might think about simply creating a
> webpage somewhere and linking to it from a text email.
>
> I'd say "Maybe that's just me," but I know for a fact it's not.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]

When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic
on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of
the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?

Thanks


list: foundation-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Comment on Copyright Orphans

body:
Stuart Orford wrote:

>On 4/12/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I already put my previous submissions into the mailing list.  It's No.
>>697 in the records of the Copyright Office.  All 714 submissions may be
>>read as pdf files.  Is there a way to do a text search for all those pdf
>>files to see if any other submissions used the string "wiki"?
>>
>>
>
>http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=site%3Acopyright.gov%2Forphan%2F+%28wiki+OR+wikipedia+OR+wikimedia%29&btnG=Search&meta=
>
>
Many thanks that's a big help

>www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/OW0236-Waddell.pdf
>
One paragraph contribution by Wikipedian Michael Waddell urging them to
do something, with emphasis on images

>www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/OW0663-IndependentFilm.pdf
>
Submission by interns at USC School of Law on behalf of independant
filmmakers.  Makes concrete proposals to open things up, but their
proposals could be improved.  No substantive reference to wikis or open
source, but references Wikipedia's [[Ephemeral film]]  in a footnote

>www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/OW0523-Schack.pdf
>
One paragraph contribution by Wikipedian Brian Schack

>www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/OW0580-Kilfiger.pdf
>
A short presentation by Wikipedian James Kilfiger. Emphasis on images.

>www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/OW0025-Krupp.pdf
>
One paragraph presentation by Wikipedian Alex Krupp.  Emphasis on
sharing with third world

>www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/OW0697-Saintonge.pdf
>
My own presentation

I'm glad to see that four other Wikipedians took the time to make
comments.  Perhaps someone can track down their user names and give them
an official "thank you" from the Board.

I have read several submissions already, and there is an apparently
clear majority of them who favour doing something about orphan works..

I agree with Anthere that we perhaps should submit something
representing WMF, but it's hard to know what kind of official position
we should take   In my own submission I certainly could not go so far as
to state that I was representing the Foundation.  They were entirely my
own opinions.  What points should we be makeing?

Ec


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk

subject: [WikiEN-l] Prudishness and censorship

body:
Over the last few months we've had several instances where certain explicit images have been the bone of contention. The discussion starts on IfD and then rapidly fills IRC, Wiki-EN and other media. As far as I can gather there are only two real schools of thought. One is that it is a viewer's responsibility to block images, the other is that Wikipedia should employ various ways to protect its viewers from what some would could consider offensive/immoral etc.

First the numbers thing. Of all the people worldwide, the vast majority would take offense at the Kate Winslet thing. This includes about a billion of Christians, hundreds of millions of Muslims and large numbers of other people who otherwise feel that it would be inappropriate. To force a liberal image policy on them effectively excludes these people from being informed by Wikipedia.

Then the browser thing. Most people do not turn off images (that is a fact), and those who know how to do it would only do it if they expected inappropriate images. I suspect most casual surfers would not expect Wikipedia to contain explicit images.

Avoiding these images, or having a Preferences key to prevent their display, is NOT censorship. It is part of achieving the goal of Wikipedia, as I have argued above. It is also not a violation of NPOV, as an image is not a POV. It is being plain sensible, sensitive and broad-minded.

en:User:Jfdwolff

____________________________________________________________

This e-mail has been scanned by the StreamShield Protector antivirus system.

Free education for all doctors.
The simple, fast way to prove you are keeping up to date.
http://www.doctors.net.uk/freelearning
____________________________________________________________


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Chad Perrin said:
>
> Text email is universal.  HTML email alienates a great many people.  If
> I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.

One very good reason to be wary of html emails is that spammers, and even
businesses that think of themselves as reputable, use web bugs, usually
image tags to a 1x1 pixel image that cause the email, if read online, to
transmit the IP number of the recipient at every time you look at it,
alongside identifying information that may permit the spammer (or
"reputable" business) to associate IP numbers with email addresses.  The
commercial value of this information to a spammer is inestimable, and it
serves absolutely no legitimate purpose to the recipient.
If you must send a html email, please send it multiparted with plaintext
so that standards-compliant email systems can choose which version to
display.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Gerard Meijssen said:
>
> It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes
>  superior.

Come again?  What's geeky about sending information in a form that
*doesn't* need a complex parser to unmangle?


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] hardware order

body:
mbecker ? wrote:
> Just a simple example of P4 vs. Athlon XP. I chose older chips simply
> because they are cheap and the benchmarks were easy to find. If I knew
> which P4 was being considered, I could provide more relevant
> benchmarks.

Unfortunately I can't give you a particular test system example because
I don't know exactly what's on the table (though that ought to get
mentioned eventually, if someone actually has been working on an order).

[snip generic benchmarks]

I'd be more interested in seeing some MediaWiki rendering and Lucene
search benchmarks, which could represent our actual workload.
Price/performance shouldn't be calculated for the CPU alone, either;
we're buying whole machines, not bare CPUs.

Not all benchmarks favor the same candidate, and it looks like
differences are at most going to be a couple percentage points when
comparing whole system price.

Note that my own personal prejudice runs in favor of AMD; I buy Athlons
for my home PCs and hiss and boo Intel at every opportunity. But if
we're going to make purchasing decisions explicitly based on a
price/performance claim I think we need something more than warm fuzzy
feelings of fighting The Man.

We started out getting Opteron boxes for the databases specifically in
order to have something that would deal well with a big chunk of memory,
whereas the commodity P4-based 1U servers were the generic case,
considered to be reliable and reasonably cost-effective based on
(anecdotal) experience.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050418/998bb9bb/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Faraaz Damji wrote:

>Tony Sidaway wrote:
>
>
>>I'm sorry if this sounds unhelpful, but could I please ask you to
>>*reconsider* any impulse you might feel to produce emails in html?  Text
>>is much nicer.
>>
>>
>
>*Completely* agree.  I use my reader in text-only because HTML is, more
>often than not, very annoying.  Maybe there could be a text-only and
>HTML version?
>
Hoi,
Quarto is a production where much effort is spend on producing a nice
layout, this is to present what we do as well as possible. Without HTML
it does not make the same impact. When you want to see what it looks
like you can find old versions in the final format. It really looks much
better that the pre production stuff.

It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes
superior.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Jack Lutz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fwd: Block

body:
Rob wrote:

>User:147.72.93.172/147.72.93.199 has for some time
>been a troublesome presence on the Pittsburgh
>Tribune-Review article.  He has made some valid
>points, but they are lost amid a torrent of claims of
>libel, legal threats, and general rudeness.  Earlier
>today he removed a large amount of material from
>Talk:Pittsburgh Tribune-Review  without archiving and
>replaced it with the words "Edited to allow more
>space."  I reverted and asked him not to do it again
>on his user talk page.  He blanked the entire page
>this time. I warned him against vandalism and
>reverted.  Another blank, another warning.  I blocked
>at the third blanking of the talk page.
>
>
Being involved in a content dispute with 147.72.93.*, in my opinion you
should not have blocked him but instead posted on Vandalism_in_progress
and let there be no question of conflict of interest or misuse of
privileges.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Prudishness and censorship

body:
jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk wrote:

> First the numbers thing. Of all the people worldwide, the vast majority
> would take offense at the Kate Winslet thing.

You asked them?  Anybody can play this bloody silly game.  Cut it out.


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Prudishness and censorship

body:
> You asked them?  Anybody can play this bloody silly game.  Cut it out.

He did provide evidence to support his assertion.

--
geni


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>Gerard Meijssen said:
>
>
>>It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes
>> superior.
>>
>>
>
>Come again?  What's geeky about sending information in a form that
>*doesn't* need a complex parser to unmangle
>
Hoi,
It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare
bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain
text just does not cut it. Horses for courses and, presentation is king.
We do need a nice presentation and it coming from us, it will not have
micro dots. This is the stuff that we send to people who contribute
money to inform them how well we do, therefore it needs the glossy look.
It is not just for us who already know how we are doing/what we are doing.
Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [WikiEN-l] Prudishness and censorship

body:
geni said:
>> You asked them?  Anybody can play this bloody silly game.  Cut it out.
>
>
> He did provide evidence to support his assertion.

No, he only gave evidence of his having made some extremely sweeping
assumptions.


from_name: Sj

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Encarta goes wiki - sort of...

body:
On 4/17/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > we really do put up with an astounding amount of
> > absurd behavior in the name of openness.
> >
> > --Jimbo
>
> Hmmmm. This is not the only point. There is an increasing anonymity in
> big communities. Not knowing an editor means you are not necessarily
> behaving as gently or approaching a conflict so easily.
>
> I think this could be improved by providing new means for editors to get
> to know others, in particular those contributing in other areas. Ideas
> such as the facebook have certainly helped.

Indeed.  Some basic social-software features that let users describe
themselves and set up networks of friends and project-collaborators,
and let others view those connections, would actually have a *purpose*
on a project like Wikipedia, just as the social aspects of wiki come
to have a real purpose beyond social experimenting and
procrastination.

--
+sj+


subject: [WikiEN-l] Tony

body:
Tony said:
>>> You asked them?  Anybody can play this bloody silly game.  Cut it out.
>>
>>
>> He did provide evidence to support his assertion.

>No, he only gave evidence of his having made some extremely
>sweeping assumptions.

This proves my suspicion that Tony perpetuates this debate. Although I wrote nothing inflammatory, Tony responds with a haemorrhagic expletive.
I'm not a sociologist, and my "sweeping assumptions" are based on logic and not on statistics. Tony's kneejerk reaction can only be an indication that my "sweeping assumptions" are making him uncomfortable.

JFW

____________________________________________________________

This e-mail has been scanned by the StreamShield Protector antivirus system.

Free education for all doctors.
The simple, fast way to prove you are keeping up to date.
http://www.doctors.net.uk/freelearning
____________________________________________________________


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> It is considered to be geeky to have a commond line, it to be bare
>> bones. Quarto is about presenting us in the best possible way. Plain
>> text just does not cut it.
>
>
> Just be aware that HTML mail often looks *like crap*.
>
> Rendering between different e-mail readers is very inconsistent, and
> security options and other limitations may often give you broken
> illegible images, etc.
>
> If you'd like to give a bad impression of Wikimedia, then please use
> HTML mail. ;)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Hoi, :)
An alternative is to send a .pdf. The bottom line is that it is well
presented.
Groetjes,
    GerardM


body:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 01:58:52PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> Chad Perrin wrote:
> > Text email is universal.  HTML email alienates a great many people.  If
> > I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
>
> Check out this survey, done in 2003:
> http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt8/email_format_preferences.htm
>
> 87% of the non-technical survey group reported being able to read HTML
> email, and 93% of the business group. HTML was reported to be preferred
> over plain text by both groups.
>

Oh, well, since it's more than 50% we can afford to just shoot and bury
the remainder.  Okay.  No problem, then.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Oops, left my computer for a while. Here's my work on the html email
so far. There's nothing fancy about it - just text. The main
difference between this and a plain text email though is that it is
anchored so that you can go directly to the language version you
prefer. It also gives a nicer layout of links.

I'm sorry if my initial reply to Tony was a bit abrupt - I still think
that quarto-l is where this should be discussed, but I appreciate the
opinions. Any replies to my initial query, ie why this version doesn't
work?

Cormac


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.4.1 released

body:
MaPhi Werner wrote:
> what is the tag name in CVS for this one? The 1.3.X releases all have
> been tagged, but I can't find a REL1_4_1 in the repository, unfortunately.

Whoops, I forgot to tag it. :)

Done now.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 253 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20050419/d2892006/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
On 4/18/05, Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:41:58PM +0200, Anthere wrote:
> >
> >
> > When I say the majority, I was referring to those discussing the topic
> > on quarto list. Cormac, could you sent a sample of the last version of
> > the mail so that Chad can understand what I mean by "best to use html" ?
> >
>
> Is the group of people discussing it on the quarto list the sum total of
> people who will receive this email of which you speak?
>

The email is proposed to be distributed on the newly-created
foundation-news-l mailing list, specifically set up for this purpose
(and possibly other announcements though this hasn't been fully
discussed). We've also thought about using it as a multilingual press
release.

On multilinguality, is it any easier to display a multilingual message
in a plain text email? Or does this require the html solution? (This
is why html was proposed in the first place.)

Cormac


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Survey regarding email preference (was Re: html
	emails)

body:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 02:49:56PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> Chad Perrin wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 01:58:52PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> >
> >>Chad Perrin wrote:
> >>
> >>>Text email is universal.  HTML email alienates a great many people.  If
> >>>I wanted to see HTML, I'd use a browser or an HTML editor.
> >>
> >>Check out this survey, done in 2003:
> >>http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt8/email_format_preferences.htm
> >>
> >>87% of the non-technical survey group reported being able to read HTML
> >>email, and 93% of the business group. HTML was reported to be preferred
> >>over plain text by both groups.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Oh, well, since it's more than 50% we can afford to just shoot and bury
> > the remainder.  Okay.  No problem, then.
>
> Excuse me, I never advocated one course of action over another. That was
> my first post to this thread. I have no strong opinion either way, so
> instead of adding to the bluster and speculation, I thought I'd
> contribute some relevant information, in the hopes that the opinions
> subsequently formed might be better educated. For the sake of civil
> discussion, please keep your temper in check.
>

Apparently, I wasn't clear in my intent.  That wasn't temper: it was a
bit of flippancy meant to point out the irrelevancy of a majority.  The
problem here is that, though users of text-only clients are a minority,
it is not an insignificant minority -- and to actually EXCLUDE them is a
suboptimal decision, at least.

My temper is in check, though my sense of humore may be obscure and
perhaps tasteless at times.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Aphaia

subject: [Foundation-l] The role of the board

body:
On 4/18/05, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> I agree with that, but I don't think those scenarios are likely to come
> up, and certainly not very often.  In the more common case, there are
> issues on which reasonable people can disagree within the scope of
> Wikipedia's mission, and on those I think deferring to the community in
> large part makes some sense.
>
> I don't necessarily mean holding votes on everything, but at least
> recognizing that in principle this isn't a top-down organization, but
> rather a community that largely works on its own to write a high-quality
> encyclopedia.

A rather theological thought ... but "a community" sounds me a bit
strange when we contemplate the current situation; even we limit the
topic on Wikipedia, I doubt strongly the idea there is one sole
(unified) community; it is ideal rather than real; in fact most of the
community exist as islands not a part of continent. the issues on
German Wikipedia give no or little effects to English Wikipedia,
supportingly and vice versa. In this situation what designate "a
community" without lacking communication and interest, I strongly
doubt unification here assumed.

I have noticed signs of tendency of isolation; hereby I introduce two
episodes.(sorry, a rant begins ... you can skip it ). a Japanese
editor made a typo in a stats table and a German editor found this
tweak; I let the former his mistake and asked him to check other his
similar table which would be to other projects, because we don't know
where he had put this table exactly. He denied saying "it is not my
major concern; I have more interest on on other tasks [his newly
created other tables on JAWP]. Finally German editor checked out other
projects. Or recently an Japanese editor made me requests for comments
on my wording and blanking the content not acceptable from academic
view; besides this 'request' it was just before the Wikimania site
opening, and it was my responsible to care for translators in 8
languages and therefore pages on the site. I admit my engagement is
only a small part of it, but it required some sort of concentration
and devotion. And moreover I have been inactive on Japanese Wikipedia
since this February,. before this RfC. So when this editor complained
me he coulnd't get my answer, I replied him I was very inactive,
specially then, because of Wikimania site preparation, already
overdue,  and WQ (then the submission deadline was set on 8 April,
very soon from then), and some update of WMF site. I  think this
editor could understand the dispute if he as the third party [very
strangely, he didn't edit the page I blanked, and no other editors of
that page complained] was pleased to my edit and the preparation of
overdue opening official site of WMF events, which was important in
those days situation, but he accused me "It is not the time for you to
engage '''such things''', you should realize importance of your
"basement of activities'"(honestly confessed I can't understand even
now what he meant).

I added hereby this editor didn't withdraw this underestimation,
though he admitted not everyone shared his view, nor he made
apologies. For this editor, I should have talk with him, besides the
translation coordination to announce hosting news in language as many
as possible to the entire Wikimedia community. Perhaps, even now.

It was just the day Yahoo! announcement, and even now I regret to
spend time to be nice to such an editor, instead of caring sites and
my fellow translators... specially sorry to translators who I couldn't
give a notice in advance.

.. So I am afraid if there is really "a community", Delirium ---
unless you consider English Wikipedia community and the entire
Wikimedia project community identical .
--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


subject: [Foundation-l] The role of the board


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Registering to that mailing list is NOT mandatory. It is a choice.
If people do not want to receive a nice mail to tell them Quarto has
been published, they can choose not to register and not to receive anything.

ant

David Gerard a ?crit:
> Gerard Meijssen (gerard.meijssen at gmail.com) [050419 07:10]:
>
>
>>Quarto is a production where much effort is spend on producing a nice
>>layout, this is to present what we do as well as possible. Without HTML
>>it does not make the same impact. When you want to see what it looks
>>like you can find old versions in the final format. It really looks much
>>better that the pre production stuff.
>
>  So make the email text and include a link to the HTML web page.
>
>
>
>>It is nice that text has a high geek factor, HTML is for these purposes
>>superior.
>
>
>
> High geek factor? In my mail client HTML email shows as the HTML.
>
> Perhaps you could encode the entire thing in Flash. Then it could be
> animated as well and have a soundtrack. Surely that would be *far* superior
> to mere HTML.
>
>
> - d.


body:
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 12:54:52AM -0400, Chad Perrin wrote:
>
> My temper is in check, though my sense of humore may be obscure and
> perhaps tasteless at times.
>

My sense of spelling might suffer some issues tonight, too.  Humore?

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [Wikitech-l] hardware order

body:
Just a simple example of P4 vs. Athlon XP. I chose older chips simply
because they are cheap and the benchmarks were easy to find. If I knew
which P4 was being considered, I could provide more relevant
benchmarks. Also, keep in mind that the prices of these chips have
decreased significantly since this article was written (2002).
http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=45000289
"Knowing that a 2.2 GHz Pentium 4 costs $562 and that an Athlon XP
2000+ (on average slightly faster) comes with a $339 pricetag, it is
crystal clear that the Athlon is still the king in the
price/performance department."
Here's an article with some possibly more useful benchmarks:
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=914&page=4
The cheapest you can currently get this P4 (based on search of
pricegrabber.com) is $110 US. The cheapest you can get the Athlon is
$60 US. Therefore, you get the following price/performance ratios
based on the last review:
CPU Bench
Athlon: 77.25 MIPS/$            P4: 35.48 MIPS/$ (Dhrystone)
Athlon: 38.68 MFLOPS/$       P4: 9.59/22.5 MFLOPS/$ (Whetstone)
Multimedia Bench
Athlon: 151.68 it/s/$              P4: 72.57 it/s/$ (Int)
Athlon: 177.88 it/s/$              P4: 89.02 it/s/$ (Float)
Memory Bench
Athlon: 33.57 MB/s/$             P4: 9.57 MB/s/$ (Int)
Athlon: 31.72 MB/s/$             P4:9.56 MB/s/$ (float)

That's an average of 2.85 performance/price increase of this AMD chip
over the P4!!
Now obviously if we get more expensive processors we might have lower
or higher benchmarks/$ depending on how far up the line we go. I would
be more than willing to look into which processor would provide us the
best performance/price if people are interested.

> > Can you provide actual benchmark results and a price/performance comparison?
> >
> > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> >
> >
> >
>


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] ENotif 3.08 for MediaWiki 1.4.1: I added the long-felt
 want "e-mail notifications for _new_ pages"

body:
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454

Regards,
Tom

Remark:
Not everyone will be pleased, but another database schema change of
table user was required to look-up quickly all users who opted-in to
receive notifications on new pages; add tinyint(1) for this.
updaters.inc is inlcuded.


subject: [Wikitech-l] hardware order

body:
hi

I heard there was an hardware order recently.
If so, could someone update this page accordingly ?
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hardware_ordered_March_2005
thanks

ant