body:
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:48:10 -0800, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > Do you not realise that because of this, these changes will not be
> [snip]
>
> Do you not realize that actual human beings have to expend time and
> effort to make the software work at all? It doesn't happen by magic.
> It's not as though the default state of the software is constant change,
> and there's a bunch of nasty people sitting there stopping it from
> moving. There is a limited amount of available developer time, and time
> spent on one thing comes out of time that could be spent on another (bug
> fixes, performance tweaks, maintenance, adding new wikis).

While I realize all of this, I'm not the one who is in control of the
system, and I have already suggested that the MediaWiki namespace be
automatically updated to a LanguageXX.php file. However, my coding
skills are limited to HTML and qbasic, and it takes quite a while to
learn a new language.

 > Unfortunately in this situation not everything gets done as quickly as
> we might hope. Yes, that fact sucks, but it's a fact. One alternative
> would be to slap up any old file and have things constantly break
> completely because the files are wrong. When this happens people
> complain at us, so we don't generally do that.

According to you, not only does it not get done as quickly as we might
hope, but apparently it may never happen at all. Not getting done
quickly is fine with me, I understand that people are busy, but not
getting done at all isn't a good thing at all.

> I'm sorry if explaining this fact and giving tips on how to get a
> language file update accepted and installed faster has offended you.

I don't remember you doing that.

> Unfortunately I don't see you doing anything to help, like testing files
> and checking them against the CVS branches. And I certainly don't see
> you coding up an alternative message store system that would eliminate
> most of the need to update syntax-sensitive code files (which is the
> painful part). When you can do that, please post again and include
> something helpful.

1. That's because any code I ever write for you or anybody else, at
least in the near future, could only be HTML or very rusty qbasic. 2.
I have already recommended an alternative message-store system.

Mark


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] About language names

body:
But they appear as members of a list. You can link to [[portal
wikipedyst?w]] and it will give you the same page as if you linked to
[[Portal wikipedyst?w]].

Mark

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:16:12 +0100, Roman Maurer <roman.maurer at amis.net> wrote:
> Andre Engels pravi:
>
> >>In the Polish language, language names are not capitalized, and
> >>neither are (for the most part) list members.
> >
> > Well, I see that "Strona g??wna", "Portal wikipedyst?w", "Bie??ce
> > wydarzenia", "Ostatnie zmiany", "Losuj stron?", "Pomoc", "Dary
> > pieni??ne", "Zmiany w dolinkowanych", "Prze?lij plik", "Strony
> > specjalne" all are capitalised...
>
> Those are article or page titles; anything in title role _is_ capitalized.
> --
>         Pozdrav,
>           Roman
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikien-l

from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
Jimbo said:
>
> But I see no reason at all to take an attitude that Steven "was
> benched" or that he "couldn't compromise with his fellow editors".
>
We'll have to agree to differ on this.  That was absolutely atrocious
behavior towards other editors, in my opinion.


subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
Frank v Waveren said:
>
> I don't see how that could be read as anything but "make one revert.
> Allowed. Make another revert. Allowed. Make another revert. Allow. Make
> another revert. Not allowed."

I think this is the kind of thing that does show up when you get around to
battle testing a rule that has hitherto only been a guideline for personal
interpretation.  It surprised me too that the difference exists, but since
I very quickly encountered at least two people who had a different
interpretation I think that's a good illustration that there is no settled
interpretation yet.
I've already stated that I regard the 3RR as unsatisfactory, underpowered
because it tolerates a very high level of pointless edit warring.  With
the alternate interpretation, in my opinion, it's worse than useless, at
the very best just a drain on sysop time.  It would magnify the power of
determined edit warriors by giving them carte blanche to perform up to
three daily individual reverts on separate sections on the same article.
If the alternate interpretation gains wide currency among edit warriors
(and it's only a matter of time), the effects will be to intensify the
problem that 3RR was intended to ease.


subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
steven l. rubenstein said:
>
> I am, however, sorry that Tony Sidaway so capably manages to combine
> ignorance with arrogance.  I say this in good faith: Tony, before
> putting  in your two cents (not adjusted for inflation), please check
> out the  history of the conflict.  I have been working on the Race
> article for some  time, and I can tell the difference between someone
> who knows what they are  doing and someone who does not.

Steve, I'm sure you know very much more than I do about this subject.
However what you don't seem to know is how to work in such a manner as not
to perform Five straight reverts in a row in a little less than 40 hours.
This has nothing to do with the history of the "conflict", as you term the
editing process on that article.  Please work on finding ways of editing
that don't make the conflict worse.


subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
Yes, but it has not been released yet, and according to Brion we won't
use it until it is.

So, unless they want to wait until some time in 2006 for their own
Wikipedia, we'll have to make do with a non-3-letter code.

Mark

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 00:22:09 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >I propose that we use something like fiu-voro as the language code
> >(there is no ethnolgue code for Voro because it lists it as a dialect
> >of Estonian).
> >
> >The issue of a code nonwithstanding, I think it should be set up right away.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:11:58 +0000, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no
> >>reaction on that list....
> >>
> >>---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>From: Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee>
> >>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200
> >>Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi?
> >>To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >>
> >>Dear members of the foundaton,
> >>I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a
> >>native speaker,
> >>researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro
> >>(native name V?ro
> >>or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric
> >>languages. It has about
> >>70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia.
> >>Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/.
> >>
> >>I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We
> >>can translate
> >>Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with
> >>creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few
> >>speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and
> >>computerized people and
> >>the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own
> >>language. I'm sure the
> >>number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub,
> >>Cornish, Gaelic,
> >>Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have
> >>discussed the idea of
> >>V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc.
> >>(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia).
> >>They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too.
> >>Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> >
> >
> There is a code for Voro in the upcoming version of ISO-639 it will be vor.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>


from_name: Frank v Waveren

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 07:26:09AM -0800, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> > His point in this
> > particular case is that a mechanical rule like 3RR is flawed when it
> > is applied in this fashion.  The reverts were to different aspects of
> > the article, and the participants were communicating.
>
> No argument from me there. But that opinion on how the 3RR should work is
> apparently a minority one. I base this on asking several other ArbCom members
> and making an inquiry on the 3RR talk page. The rule states 'no more than 3
> reverts on any page in 24 hours.' Most people take that very literally (for
> better or worse). I interpret 'reverts' to be the same or substantially the
> same revert. Oh well.

There are definitely arguments for type of 3RR rule instead of what we
currently have, however I don't see how anyone could read the current
3RR page or the one at the time of the vote as meaning that.

Both clearly state:

   Don't revert any page more than three times within a period of 24 hours.

I don't see how that could be read as anything but "make one revert.
Allowed. Make another revert. Allowed. Make another revert. Allow. Make
another revert. Not allowed."

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8

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subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 11:00:15AM -0500, steven l. rubenstein wrote:
> topic.  When Jalnet2 insists on making uninformed claims, he is not
> insulting me -- he is insulting the hard work of scores of evolutionary
> scientists, and dishonoring the integrity of Wikipedia, which depends on
> editors doing some research.
I'd advise you not to see edits you disagree with as insults, no
matter how stupid you find them; Whether you considerd them insults to
you or things you hold dear doesn't matter, in the end no good can
come of it. Think of them as mistakes or disagreements, it gives a
much more pleasant atmosphere.

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8

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from_name: Angela

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no
reaction on that list....

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200
Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi?
To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org

Dear members of the foundaton,
I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a
native speaker,
researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro
(native name V?ro
or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric
languages. It has about
70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia.
Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/.

I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We
can translate
Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with
creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few
speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and
computerized people and
the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own
language. I'm sure the
number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub,
Cornish, Gaelic,
Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have
discussed the idea of
V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc.
(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia).
They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too.
Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: me and my three reverts

body:
At 09:55 PM 2/2/2005 +0000, Pete/Pcb21 wrote:

>Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>>Yes, and there are some good reasons to interpret it fairly literally,
>>while at the same time leaving a little breathing room for common
>>sense recognition that randomly changing one irrelevant word in a
>>different part of the article is still a revert.
>
>The problem with interpretations and hundreds of admins is that it only
>needs one admin with a "hardline" attitude for the user to be blocked
>(however temporarily). Under the current model, the will of the mass of
>the community is irrelevant, it is the outlying opinions that have most weight.

But that one hardliner would also have to be dedicated enough to check
_every_ possible 3RR violation himself in order for his own standard to
become "universal" like that. Furthermore, other admins can and do unblock
"marginal" cases by their own standards as well. I don't think the
hardliner would have all that disproportionate an impact, overall.

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 1/28/2005


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: me and my three reverts

body:
On Feb 2, 2005, at 4:07 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>
>
> Other admins have the option of unblocking an egregious block.
>
> And, you know, editors have the option of not reverting more than three
> times in a day.
>
What?

You mean the three revert rule doesn't mandate that I revert three
times a day?

Damn.

-Snowspinner


from_name: Felix Wan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia in Chinese dialects

body:
Dear all:

Finally I have found my way here where the discussion takes place. There has not been much in meta. I have read arguments from both sides here, and I would like to contribute my ideas to the question we have.

Let me first introduce my language background. My parents' native language is actually Shanghainese, so I know it. I was born and raised in Hong Kong, so I am most fluent in Cantonese. My elementary school used Mandarin as the language of instruction, so I am also fluent in Mandarin. My education later was more and more in English, so I also know the British English dialect. Then I went to USA and became fluent in American English. I also know a little Japanese.

It is very interesting but not surprising to see that the strongest opposition against setting up Wikipedia in Chinese dialects came from Chinese speakers. Yes, we are educated to believe that Chinese is one language and that Qin Shihuang has unified the written language thousands of years ago. One user correctly pointed out that the unified writing system was Classical Chinese (Wenyanwen). Today's Xiandai Hanyu / Baihuawen is actually based on the Mandarin vernacular. People not speaking Mandarin Chinese suddenly became illiterate when they first encountered Baihuawen but education has successfully established the Mandarin vernacular as the new standard of Chinese writing.

Cantonese Chinese : Mandarin Chinese :: British English : American English?

One user has correctly pointed out that the analogy is improper. All linguists agree that the first two dialects are not mutually intelligible but the last two dialects are. The reason that Mandarin speakers can understand writing by people from Hong Kong is that formal education requires students to writing in Mandarin vocabulary and Mandarin grammar. Many students are unaware of the fact just because they do not speak Mandarin. That fact is that every literate Cantonese speaker can understand text written in the Mandarin vernacular. That is why some users argued that text written in Cantonese may not be needed.

Colloquial vs. Vernacular

There could be some misunderstanding that I have to make clear. Standard written Chinese is not in colloquial Mandarin but in vernacular Mandarin. There should be a sense of formality in written literature, and the vocabulary should be standardized, but it should sound natural and grammatical like it is spoken everyday. Standard written Chinese does not sound like Cantonese when every character is pronounced in Cantonese. I must say that the literary vernacular Cantonese standard is not as developed as Mandarin, but as many users has stated, there are people creating Cantonese literature. Although writing a Cantonese encyclopedia will be unprecedented, I supported the idea because I already found Wikipedia in minority languages and fictional languages. I thought: why not give major dialects of China a try?

As an illustration, the language I am writing in is vernacular English. Colloquial English will be like this: http://www.langmaker.com/db/bbl_englishcolloquial.htm

I found that later in the discussion, the opposition started to get focused on the real issue that got my attention: If I am writing the encyclopedia in vernacular Cantonese using traditional Chinese script, how much will it be different from the existing ZH Wikipedia? We can only try it out to see. So far linguistic studies concentrated only on the spoken varieties of Chinese.

Proposal

I propose that we agree on some policies on setting up a Wikipedia in a new language. Since a new Wikipedia will need some good articles to start with anyway, we may ask people who propose new Wikipedia to pick some topics from the 1000 essential articles and write say at least 3 good articles of moderate length and 20 good stubs in the proposed script. A possible location without new setup for those experimental articles will be on meta by using pages with prefixes like "Wikipedia:New/zh-yue-han/", "Wikipedia:New/zh-wuu-han/", "Wikipedia:New/zh-guoyu-pinyin/". (By the way, I support Pinyin Wikipedia. If there is a "Simple English" version, why not a pinyin version for people to learn Chinese?)

That is just a thought. How feasible is the idea? Please fill me in on the technical issues. I hope that further discussions here can work on the details formalize the procedure so that every language/dialect can have a fair chance to start a new Wikipedia and have a reasonably good foundation if started.

As for the doubt on how much time I will spend on the Wu Wikipedia? I don?t know. How much commitment is required to support an issue on Wikimedia? Is there a policy? The reason I am only active in EN is because I want not only to edit, but to participate in the community. I prefer spending more time on one community first. I have already made some edits on ZH, and I will contribute more.

Felix Wan


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> 4. I take a dim view of editors abusing their editing privileges and then
> whining about the consequences.  I will pour verbal ashes on their heads.
> In my opinion this is as nothing to the problems they themselves cause.

I take a dim view of people who are so obviously and obnoxiously rude. Go for a
walk and do something productive in the real world for a while. It does
wonders.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

> No argument from me there. But that opinion on how the 3RR should work is
> apparently a minority one. I base this on asking several other ArbCom members
> and making an inquiry on the 3RR talk page. The rule states 'no more than 3
> reverts on any page in 24 hours.' Most people take that very literally (for
> better or worse). I interpret 'reverts' to be the same or substantially the
> same revert. Oh well.

The reason I interpret this literally as *per page* is the problem of
someone camping out on an article, protecting it from all changes from
"their" version.

I've seen this - User:A fixes one area, User:B reverts; User:C makes a
different change, User:B reverts; User:D makes a third change, User:B
reverts....

The three revert rule is certainly not perfect, and has in some ways
merely shifted and complicated the problem - but on the whole I think it
is the right rule - and should apply to pages and not versions.

--sannse

--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 01/02/05


list: foundation-l

from_name: NSK

subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject)

body:
On Wednesday 02 February 2005 17:36, Chad Perrin wrote:
> If the former, I've got a little webspace and bandwidth to spare.

I have also some spare webspace/bandwidth. See
http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting

--
NSK
http://portal.wikinerds.org


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject)


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: per-article anon edit rights

body:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 01:28:12 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Morehouse
<spambox at evernex.com> wrote:
> Frank v Waveren <fvw.wikipediaml <at> var.cx> writes:
>
> > Perhaps you could protect all pages apart from those that are
> > anon-editable and give all logged in users sufficient privileges to
> > edit protected pages? Bit of a hack, but it might work for some
> > specific cases.
>
> Wouldn't I have to each new page to the config file by hand in that case?

No. "Protection" is an action performed by anyone with (in all current
versions of MediaWiki) "sysop" status, through the normal web
interface - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Administration and
linked pages for a few further clues about this. [Basically, if you
are logged in with sysop privileges, you should see an extra tab above
articles marked "protect" or "unprotect".]

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
I still believe that is being extremely, extremely, extremely selfish.

Why not instead tell people to focus their energy on English, since
there are more English speakers?

Again, you are making it sound like the zh.wikipedia community will be
split into thirds or fourths, when in reality it will remain totally
intact with only a few small exceptions.

Now, what I find especially outrageous is that even after people like
Alex have expressed their tentative support, you continue to say no,
work on the Mandarin Wikipedia instead.

If these people want to work on a separate Wikipedia, you should stop
harassing them (or as you call it "encouraging" them).

Quit being so focused only on yourself and your own language community
and think of others for a change.

Mark

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:35:58 +0800, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> Felix, that's a good summary of the issues.
>
> Right now, I would encourage Chinese-savvy, prospective Wikipedians to
> work on ZH rather than spawning many, small Chinese-dialect
> Wikipedias. Jimbo's statement is the most compelling argument for
> this:
>
> "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given
> free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're
> doing." -Jimmy Wales, July 2004
>
> To me, that means encouraging most of the labour towards making a
> "Mandarin" Wikipedia. As a side effect, Wikipedia can be an experiment
> in Internet democracy or a way to preserve/promote languages. But the
> primary goal should be to write an encyclopedia.
>
> One done in Mandarin will benefit over 1 billion people who simply
> don't have a good free encyclopedia, in both senses of the word - free
> as in beer, and free as in freedom. The faster we get there, the
> better. And I don't think that's a selfish notion.
>
> -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)
>
> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:55:15 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
> <felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> > Dear all:
> >
> > Finally I have found my way here where the discussion takes place. There has not been much in meta. I have read arguments from both sides here, and I would like to contribute my ideas to the question we have.
> >
> > Let me first introduce my language background. My parents' native language is actually Shanghainese, so I know it. I was born and raised in Hong Kong, so I am most fluent in Cantonese. My elementary school used Mandarin as the language of instruction, so I am also fluent in Mandarin. My education later was more and more in English, so I also know the British English dialect. Then I went to USA and became fluent in American English. I also know a little Japanese.
> >
> > It is very interesting but not surprising to see that the strongest opposition against setting up Wikipedia in Chinese dialects came from Chinese speakers. Yes, we are educated to believe that Chinese is one language and that Qin Shihuang has unified the written language thousands of years ago. One user correctly pointed out that the unified writing system was Classical Chinese (Wenyanwen). Today's Xiandai Hanyu / Baihuawen is actually based on the Mandarin vernacular. People not speaking Mandarin Chinese suddenly became illiterate when they first encountered Baihuawen but education has successfully established the Mandarin vernacular as the new standard of Chinese writing.
> >
> > Cantonese Chinese : Mandarin Chinese :: British English : American English?
> >
> > One user has correctly pointed out that the analogy is improper. All linguists agree that the first two dialects are not mutually intelligible but the last two dialects are. The reason that Mandarin speakers can understand writing by people from Hong Kong is that formal education requires students to writing in Mandarin vocabulary and Mandarin grammar. Many students are unaware of the fact just because they do not speak Mandarin. That fact is that every literate Cantonese speaker can understand text written in the Mandarin vernacular. That is why some users argued that text written in Cantonese may not be needed.
> >
> > Colloquial vs. Vernacular
> >
> > There could be some misunderstanding that I have to make clear. Standard written Chinese is not in colloquial Mandarin but in vernacular Mandarin. There should be a sense of formality in written literature, and the vocabulary should be standardized, but it should sound natural and grammatical like it is spoken everyday. Standard written Chinese does not sound like Cantonese when every character is pronounced in Cantonese. I must say that the literary vernacular Cantonese standard is not as developed as Mandarin, but as many users has stated, there are people creating Cantonese literature. Although writing a Cantonese encyclopedia will be unprecedented, I supported the idea because I already found Wikipedia in minority languages and fictional languages. I thought: why not give major dialects of China a try?
> >
> > As an illustration, the language I am writing in is vernacular English. Colloquial English will be like this: http://www.langmaker.com/db/bbl_englishcolloquial.htm
> >
> > I found that later in the discussion, the opposition started to get focused on the real issue that got my attention: If I am writing the encyclopedia in vernacular Cantonese using traditional Chinese script, how much will it be different from the existing ZH Wikipedia? We can only try it out to see. So far linguistic studies concentrated only on the spoken varieties of Chinese.
> >
> > Proposal
> >
> > I propose that we agree on some policies on setting up a Wikipedia in a new language. Since a new Wikipedia will need some good articles to start with anyway, we may ask people who propose new Wikipedia to pick some topics from the 1000 essential articles and write say at least 3 good articles of moderate length and 20 good stubs in the proposed script. A possible location without new setup for those experimental articles will be on meta by using pages with prefixes like "Wikipedia:New/zh-yue-han/", "Wikipedia:New/zh-wuu-han/", "Wikipedia:New/zh-guoyu-pinyin/". (By the way, I support Pinyin Wikipedia. If there is a "Simple English" version, why not a pinyin version for people to learn Chinese?)
> >
> > That is just a thought. How feasible is the idea? Please fill me in on the technical issues. I hope that further discussions here can work on the details formalize the procedure so that every language/dialect can have a fair chance to start a new Wikipedia and have a reasonably good foundation if started.
> >
> > As for the doubt on how much time I will spend on the Wu Wikipedia? I don't know. How much commitment is required to support an issue on Wikimedia? Is there a policy? The reason I am only active in EN is because I want not only to edit, but to participate in the community. I prefer spending more time on one community first. I have already made some edits on ZH, and I will contribute more.
> >
> > Felix Wan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
> --
>
> Andrew Lih, Assistant Professor
> Journalism and Media Studies Centre
> University of Hong Kong
> Email: alih at hku.hk | Web: http://jmsc.hku.hk/faculty/alih
> AOL IM: fuzheado | ICQ: 231894253
> Yahoo Messenger: andrew_lih | MSN Messenger: andrew_lih at msn.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 01:28:12AM +0000, Gordon Morehouse wrote:
> Wouldn't I have to each new page to the config file by hand in that
> case?
Hmm, good point. Then you'll just have to hack it into the source
somewhere, I've been reading around and it's not half as messy as some
people say. Poke me for help on wikipedia or via email tomorrow
evening if you have trouble figuring out how to do it and we can have
trouble figuring out how to do it together.

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8

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subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 12:57:25PM -0500, steven l. rubenstein wrote:
> However, I think the real need for the 3-revert rule is to put a brake on
> serious behavioral problems.  The problem with the 3-revert rule is that it
> is utterly neutral to content.  I think when there are repeated problems
> with content, we may need other mechanisms.
Quite. I think being content-neutral is actually one of the 3RRs great
strengths. It's only there to modify behaviour, not to dictate what
the article should be.

For problem users who repeatedly make bad edits, try to get some more
community involved; Post a notice on newbies or the village pump or
even on a few friends' talk pages, try to get more people involved
(though there were quite a few others involved here already, so just
waiting for them would probably have been sufficient), that way you
can all stay far away from three reverts and have the other person
make a fool of themselves.

For continued problem users even the 3RR combined with a large group
of people disagreeing isn't going to help of course, but I don't think
we should look to the 3RR in such cases, it isn't part of dispute
resolution process.

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8

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subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 10:00:59AM -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> >I'd advise you not to see edits you disagree with as insults, no
> >matter how stupid you find them; Whether you considerd them insults to
> >you or things you hold dear doesn't matter, in the end no good can
> >come of it. Think of them as mistakes or disagreements, it gives a
> >much more pleasant atmosphere.
> If you believe your own rhetoric you would say the same about those who
> have a quick trigger finger for applying 3RR.
Hmm? If it gives you any comfort, you should know I've never been
offended or insulted by a 3RR violation, nor by a block because of a
3RR violation. Is that what you meant?

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: me and my three reverts

body:
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

> Yes, and there are some good reasons to interpret it fairly literally,
> while at the same time leaving a little breathing room for common
> sense recognition that randomly changing one irrelevant word in a
> different part of the article is still a revert.

The problem with interpretations and hundreds of admins is that it only
needs one admin with a "hardline" attitude for the user to be blocked
(however temporarily). Under the current model, the will of the mass of
the community is irrelevant, it is the outlying opinions that have most
weight.

Pete


body:
On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 08:50:55PM +0000, Rowan Collins wrote:
> > Wouldn't I have to each new page to the config file by hand in that case?
> No. "Protection" is an action performed by anyone with (in all current
> versions of MediaWiki) "sysop" status, through the normal web
> interface - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Administration and
> linked pages for a few further clues about this. [Basically, if you
> are logged in with sysop privileges, you should see an extra tab above
> articles marked "protect" or "unprotect".]
I think he means that each newly created page would have to be
manually set to protected, which would indeed be a nuisance.

--
Frank v Waveren                                      Fingerprint: BDD7 D61E
fvw@[var.cx|stack.nl] ICQ#10074100                      5D39 CF05 4BFC F57A
Public key: hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/468D62C8              FA00 7D51 468D 62C8

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from_name: Roman Maurer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] About language names

body:
Andre Engels pravi:

>>In the Polish language, language names are not capitalized, and
>>neither are (for the most part) list members.
>
> Well, I see that "Strona g??wna", "Portal wikipedyst?w", "Bie??ce
> wydarzenia", "Ostatnie zmiany", "Losuj stron?", "Pomoc", "Dary
> pieni??ne", "Zmiany w dolinkowanych", "Prze?lij plik", "Strony
> specjalne" all are capitalised...

Those are article or page titles; anything in title role _is_ capitalized.
--
	Pozdrav,
	  Roman


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject:
[WikiEN-l] I just had to forward this little nugget onto fellow
	editors

body:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:15:49 +0000, Christiaan Briggs
<christiaan at last-straw.net> wrote:
> http://www.last-straw.net/1967propaganda.htm

Wikipedia isn't a place for you to advance your political agenda, as
I've already pointed out on [[Talk:Iraqi parliamentary election,
2005]]. I would advise you to refrain from using Wikipedia and its
associated avenues of communication as such in the future.

--Slowking Man


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: me and my three reverts

body:
David Gerard said:
>
>
> Other admins have the option of unblocking an egregious block.
>
> And, you know, editors have the option of not reverting more than three
> times in a day.

I think that says it all.  In this case though it pains me to say it, it
looks as if there may not even be a consensus for the classification of
four distinct reverts, or even two distinct sets of  identical reverts, on
the same page, as a 3RR breach.  Such instances should be dealt with by
appeal here.
I reserve my right to verbally chastise those whom I see as editing
irresponsibly, however.  There will be no appeals.


body:
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:17:20 +0800, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:06:20 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Why not instead tell people to focus their energy on English, since
> > there are more English speakers?
>
> Because as smart as I thought you were, you still don't see recognize
> the problem of having less than 20,000 articles for the most widely
> spoken language in the world.

"as smart as I thought you were" - am I supposed to interpret that
non-maliciously?

And I still don't see the problem with having less than 20k articles.
Every Wikipedia will always have less than _______ articles, and will
you always be worrying about that? When zh.wikipedia has 1 trillion
articles, will you be worrying that it doesn't have two trillion?

Again, it is extremely selfish of you to do this. And supposedly, if
second-language speakers are included for both English and Chinese,
and Chinese is limited to those literate in Baihua (ie, excluding
illiterates), English exceeds Chinese by far.

> And since you consistently assail the character of those who disagree
> with you, and maliciously reinterpret peoples' comments, I'm done with
> with you.

Again, I don't see how your comments can be interpreted as anything
other than telling people "quit agitating for your own Wikipedia. edit
ours instead!!!" which is very selfish and inconsiderate of others.

And if you're done with me, bear in mind that that does not mean I
will no longer respond to YOUR messages.

Mark


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
In a message dated 02/02/2005 21:43:38 Eastern Standard Time,
minorityreport at bluebottle.com writes:
4. I take a dim view of editors abusing their editing privileges and then
whining about the consequences.  I will pour verbal ashes on their heads.
In my opinion this is as nothing to the problems they themselves cause.
Well, I dont think Srubenstein was whining. He actually accepted the block in
a very respectful and decent manner. I do think, however, that continually
attacking him hardly helps to alleviate this situation and can only serve to
exacerbate a situation which otherwise seems to be resolving itself nicely.
Please stop.

Danny


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [WikiEN-l] [harrypasternak@sympatico.ca: HIV+AIDS+Wikipedia]

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

| ----- Forwarded message from harry <harrypasternak at sympatico.ca> -----

<snip long virusmyth POV>

There's a nice page [1] which is "anti-Mullis" POV, but shows the
problem we face with the HIV/AIDS topic, among others, in an intriguing way.

Magnus

[1] http://www.anaesthetist.com/icu/infect/virus/dues2.htm
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iD8DBQFCAU+pCZKBJbEFcz0RAodsAJ9mzXjyT7VqWWOaMWrYmGt9NdoozwCcDWGR
oXIgVFta+sSaTytCFef/SWo=
=RPEu
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from_name: Alan Wessman

subject: [Wikitech-l] Patch for bug 15 needs review

body:
Greetings all,

I have implemented the "preview with diff" feature requested in bug 15
(http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15).  I would be most
grateful if somebody would review the four associated patches.

The patches are written against the current HEAD revision, and
backporting to 1.4 and 1.3 has not yet been done.  Anyone is welcome
to tackle that effort if they like.  Also, Language.php is involved in
the change (a label for a preference checkbox), so translations of the
new string will be needed in the various LanguageX.php files.

I'm happy to add documentation to meta (or wherever it belongs) when
appropriate.  Should I do this now, or wait for the patch to be
accepted?

Regards,
Alan Wessman


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>I propose that we use something like fiu-voro as the language code
>(there is no ethnolgue code for Voro because it lists it as a dialect
>of Estonian).
>
>The issue of a code nonwithstanding, I think it should be set up right away.
>
>Mark
>
>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:11:58 +0000, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no
>>reaction on that list....
>>
>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>From: Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee>
>>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200
>>Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi?
>>To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>
>>Dear members of the foundaton,
>>I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a
>>native speaker,
>>researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro
>>(native name V?ro
>>or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric
>>languages. It has about
>>70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia.
>>Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/.
>>
>>I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We
>>can translate
>>Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with
>>creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few
>>speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and
>>computerized people and
>>the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own
>>language. I'm sure the
>>number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub,
>>Cornish, Gaelic,
>>Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have
>>discussed the idea of
>>V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc.
>>(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia).
>>They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too.
>>Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
There is a code for Voro in the upcoming version of ISO-639 it will be vor.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
Because it's not official yet.

Mark

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 06:51:04 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Yes, but it has not been released yet, and according to Brion we won't
> >use it until it is.
> >
> >So, unless they want to wait until some time in 2006 for their own
> >Wikipedia, we'll have to make do with a non-3-letter code.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> The to be released ISO 639 codes will be used in a proper manner; codes
> published will only be used for the proposed use and when this use is
> withdrawn the codes will not be re-used. I am interested to know WHY we
> would not use these codes.
>
> Gerard
>
> >On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 00:22:09 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> ><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I propose that we use something like fiu-voro as the language code
> >>>(there is no ethnolgue code for Voro because it lists it as a dialect
> >>>of Estonian).
> >>>
> >>>The issue of a code nonwithstanding, I think it should be set up right away.
> >>>
> >>>Mark
> >>>
> >>>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:11:58 +0000, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no
> >>>>reaction on that list....
> >>>>
> >>>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>>>From: Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee>
> >>>>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200
> >>>>Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi?
> >>>>To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>>Dear members of the foundaton,
> >>>>I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a
> >>>>native speaker,
> >>>>researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro
> >>>>(native name V?ro
> >>>>or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric
> >>>>languages. It has about
> >>>>70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia.
> >>>>Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in
> >>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/.
> >>>>
> >>>>I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We
> >>>>can translate
> >>>>Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with
> >>>>creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few
> >>>>speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and
> >>>>computerized people and
> >>>>the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own
> >>>>language. I'm sure the
> >>>>number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub,
> >>>>Cornish, Gaelic,
> >>>>Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have
> >>>>discussed the idea of
> >>>>V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc.
> >>>>(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia).
> >>>>They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too.
> >>>>Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>There is a code for Voro in the upcoming version of ISO-639 it will be vor.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>    GerardM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> >
> >
>
>


from_name: tic at tictric.net

subject: [Wikitech-l] WIN32 to Linux Migration

body:
Am Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:13:00 +0000 (UTC) hat sean inglis <sean at meluv.net>
geschrieben:

> Hi,
>
> I've been runnning MediaWiki as a proof-of-concept for technical
> documentation.
> It's gained a lot of support, and so it's being moved from it's current
> home on
> my development box to a production server.
>
> The version I'm running at the moment is WIN32 based using EasyPHP.
>
> The intention is to move to Linux.
>
> Can anyone give me any pointers for performing this migration?

Just dump your database in a file.sql
Install the Linuxbox with everything you need. (LAMP)
Load the dump in a new Database.
Install mediawiki just like normal.

>
> Presumably I can take the current MySql datafiles and copy them across
> unaltered, but I'd have a tidying up exercise when it comes to uploaded

No, you just can't copy mysql-files from win to linux. You need to dump
the db.

> images/document, and their relative paths?

Just take the images directory and copy it to the new machine in the
images directory there.

--manfred

>
> Any advice/pointers appreciated
>
> Sean
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
de.glassdoc.org
en.glassdoc.org


from_name: Peter Danenberg

subject: [Wikitech-l] Alternates to PHP: Wikipedia with a fast C-Engine?

body:
> So I ask you: is it interesting for you, to change Wikipedia from
> PHP to a C-written engine?

     A  beautiful idea; in fact, I just rewrote WikiTeX in C
so as to be able to extend the  Zend  engine  (or  write  an
Apache module).

     Both  Zend  and  Apache  have native memory management,
alleviating our main concern.

--
Peter Danenberg                                           .
wikisophia.org                                           ..:


subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
Hi Sulev,

Since "vro" and "vr" aren't official codes, unfortunately we can't use them.

I agree that fiu-voro is probably best for right now.

It's not difficult to change later, although usually instead of
changing you just move it to another domain but keep the old one as a
redirect.

Mark

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:50:48 +0200, Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee> wrote:
> It seems that "vor" in the next release of ISO 639 doesn't stand for the V?ro language in Estonia. There is a Voro language
> somewhere in Nigeria using SIL code "VOR", see http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=VOR. Probably "vor" is meant for
> this African language. We can not use the same code for V?ro in Estonia.
>
> I planned to ask the codes "vro" and "vr" for V?ro (my mother tongue spoken in Estonia) from ISO and Ethnologue. I have no
> information that somebody else had asked codes for V?ro.
>
> So it would be great if we could use "vro" or "vr". But if it is impossible so why not to use "fiu-voro" or "fiu-vr" or "fiu-
> vro" as a temporary code. But is it hard to change it later into "vro" or "vr"?
>
> Regards
> Sulev
>
> 3.02.2005 7:51:04, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> kirot':
>
> >Mark Williamson wrote:
> >
> >>Yes, but it has not been released yet, and according to Brion we won't
> >>use it until it is.
> >>
> >>So, unless they want to wait until some time in 2006 for their own
> >>Wikipedia, we'll have to make do with a non-3-letter code.
> >>
> >>Mark
> >>
> >>
> >The to be released ISO 639 codes will be used in a proper manner; codes
> >published will only be used for the proposed use and when this use is
> >withdrawn the codes will not be re-used. I am interested to know WHY we
> >would not use these codes.
> >
> >Gerard
> >
> >>On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 00:22:09 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> >><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I propose that we use something like fiu-voro as the language code
> >>>>(there is no ethnolgue code for Voro because it lists it as a dialect
> >>>>of Estonian).
> >>>>
> >>>>The issue of a code nonwithstanding, I think it should be set up right away.
> >>>>
> >>>>Mark
> >>>>
> >>>>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:11:58 +0000, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no
> >>>>>reaction on that list....
> >>>>>
> >>>>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>>>>From: Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee>
> >>>>>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200
> >>>>>Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi?
> >>>>>To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Dear members of the foundaton,
> >>>>>I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a
> >>>>>native speaker,
> >>>>>researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro
> >>>>>(native name V?ro
> >>>>>or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric
> >>>>>languages. It has about
> >>>>>70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia.
> >>>>>Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in
> >>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We
> >>>>>can translate
> >>>>>Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with
> >>>>>creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few
> >>>>>speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and
> >>>>>computerized people and
> >>>>>the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own
> >>>>>language. I'm sure the
> >>>>>number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub,
> >>>>>Cornish, Gaelic,
> >>>>>Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have
> >>>>>discussed the idea of
> >>>>>V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc.
> >>>>>(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia).
> >>>>>They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too.
> >>>>>Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
> >>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >>>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>There is a code for Voro in the upcoming version of ISO-639 it will be vor.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks,
> >>>    GerardM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Gabriel Wicke

subject: [Wikitech-l] Squid bug'n'patch

body:
On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 10:08 +0200, Domas Mituzas wrote:
> I guess WCCP is not in WM deployment.

Yep.
--
Gabriel Wicke


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
Ray Saintonge said:
>>
> It's all about a literal vs. a common sense approach to rules.  A
> strict  literal interpretation which Tony has apparently applied then
> starts to beg questions like, "How exactly do we interpret 'revert'?"
> Lying in wait like a stalking lion for anyone to violate the 3RR
> anywhere is clearly an abuse of process

I'd like to make some things plain because I think both the circumstances
of the block, and my expressed opinion, are being grossly
mischaracterized.
1.  The blocked editor who posted here had consciously made five
absolutely clear, unequivocal, self-labelled reverts on the article in the
space of 40 hours, four of them in the space of 24 hours.  There was no
"begging the question" here, and no "literal" interpretation.  They were
reverts and he knew it.
2.  During that period of 40 hours, he had made *absolutely no other edits
on the article.*
3. I do not advocate a pro-active approach to 3RR blocking; rather it is
the editor's responsibility to ensure that he does not abuse his editing
privileges.
4. I take a dim view of editors abusing their editing privileges and then
whining about the consequences.  I will pour verbal ashes on their heads.
In my opinion this is as nothing to the problems they themselves cause.
5. As it happens, the decision to block was taken as a result of a call
made on the administrator's noticeboard by the editor whose content was
being repeatedly reverted.  This was not a case of anyone lying in wait
and pouncing on a poor, bewildered, hard-done-by, revert-happy editor.  As
both editors had breached 3RR, both were blocked.


body:
Hi Felix,

I also noticed what you said in Meta about not supporting having a
separate edition for Penkyamp and a separate edition for romanized Wu.
I think this point is important to emphasize.

I don't see why these separate editions are nessecary. The difference
is only between scripts, and Han characters can be converted to
Penkyamp or a Wu romanization system by computer with great accuracy.

Having separate editions for Chinese vernaculars is in my view a good
thing, but as you said it may be a little bit hard to gather support
at first. Imagine how much harder it will be if it is divided across 3
entirely separate Wikipedias for different scripts?

I think we should all start out using the Han script, and from there
we can develop conversion technology if nessecary.

What I think is most important here however is this:

The board needs to make an ultimate decision on whether groups of
native speakers should be allowed their own Wikipedia when they
request it amid objections from a group of speakers of a different
language.

IE, should a Cantonese and Wu Wikipedia be created with the full
support of people like Felix Wan and Nishishei and Pangguanzhe, and
the tentative support of people like Alex, all of whom actually speak
these languages, as well as the support of some non-speakers
(Pektiong, MilchFlasche, Kaihsu, and encouraging words from a few
other zh.wikipedians who don't actually know any of these languages),
against the strong wills of non-speakers such as Andrew Lih, Sheng
Jiong (who, it should be noted, does speak Minnan), Shizhao, and such?

What I think is particularly compelling about this particular case is
that no Cantonese or Wu speakers have come out yet to say outright
"No", even skeptical native speakers like Toytoy have not given such a
strong opinion.

I also think a decision should be made in the near future so this
issue can stop being argued over in slow motion.

Mark

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:55:15 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
<felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> Dear all:
>
> Finally I have found my way here where the discussion takes place. There has not been much in meta. I have read arguments from both sides here, and I would like to contribute my ideas to the question we have.
>
> Let me first introduce my language background. My parents' native language is actually Shanghainese, so I know it. I was born and raised in Hong Kong, so I am most fluent in Cantonese. My elementary school used Mandarin as the language of instruction, so I am also fluent in Mandarin. My education later was more and more in English, so I also know the British English dialect. Then I went to USA and became fluent in American English. I also know a little Japanese.
>
> It is very interesting but not surprising to see that the strongest opposition against setting up Wikipedia in Chinese dialects came from Chinese speakers. Yes, we are educated to believe that Chinese is one language and that Qin Shihuang has unified the written language thousands of years ago. One user correctly pointed out that the unified writing system was Classical Chinese (Wenyanwen). Today's Xiandai Hanyu / Baihuawen is actually based on the Mandarin vernacular. People not speaking Mandarin Chinese suddenly became illiterate when they first encountered Baihuawen but education has successfully established the Mandarin vernacular as the new standard of Chinese writing.
>
> Cantonese Chinese : Mandarin Chinese :: British English : American English?
>
> One user has correctly pointed out that the analogy is improper. All linguists agree that the first two dialects are not mutually intelligible but the last two dialects are. The reason that Mandarin speakers can understand writing by people from Hong Kong is that formal education requires students to writing in Mandarin vocabulary and Mandarin grammar. Many students are unaware of the fact just because they do not speak Mandarin. That fact is that every literate Cantonese speaker can understand text written in the Mandarin vernacular. That is why some users argued that text written in Cantonese may not be needed.
>
> Colloquial vs. Vernacular
>
> There could be some misunderstanding that I have to make clear. Standard written Chinese is not in colloquial Mandarin but in vernacular Mandarin. There should be a sense of formality in written literature, and the vocabulary should be standardized, but it should sound natural and grammatical like it is spoken everyday. Standard written Chinese does not sound like Cantonese when every character is pronounced in Cantonese. I must say that the literary vernacular Cantonese standard is not as developed as Mandarin, but as many users has stated, there are people creating Cantonese literature. Although writing a Cantonese encyclopedia will be unprecedented, I supported the idea because I already found Wikipedia in minority languages and fictional languages. I thought: why not give major dialects of China a try?
>
> As an illustration, the language I am writing in is vernacular English. Colloquial English will be like this: http://www.langmaker.com/db/bbl_englishcolloquial.htm
>
> I found that later in the discussion, the opposition started to get focused on the real issue that got my attention: If I am writing the encyclopedia in vernacular Cantonese using traditional Chinese script, how much will it be different from the existing ZH Wikipedia? We can only try it out to see. So far linguistic studies concentrated only on the spoken varieties of Chinese.
>
> Proposal
>
> I propose that we agree on some policies on setting up a Wikipedia in a new language. Since a new Wikipedia will need some good articles to start with anyway, we may ask people who propose new Wikipedia to pick some topics from the 1000 essential articles and write say at least 3 good articles of moderate length and 20 good stubs in the proposed script. A possible location without new setup for those experimental articles will be on meta by using pages with prefixes like "Wikipedia:New/zh-yue-han/", "Wikipedia:New/zh-wuu-han/", "Wikipedia:New/zh-guoyu-pinyin/". (By the way, I support Pinyin Wikipedia. If there is a "Simple English" version, why not a pinyin version for people to learn Chinese?)
>
> That is just a thought. How feasible is the idea? Please fill me in on the technical issues. I hope that further discussions here can work on the details formalize the procedure so that every language/dialect can have a fair chance to start a new Wikipedia and have a reasonably good foundation if started.
>
> As for the doubt on how much time I will spend on the Wu Wikipedia? I don't know. How much commitment is required to support an issue on Wikimedia? Is there a policy? The reason I am only active in EN is because I want not only to edit, but to participate in the community. I prefer spending more time on one community first. I have already made some edits on ZH, and I will contribute more.
>
> Felix Wan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
JAY JG (jayjg at hotmail.com) [050203 04:32]:

> >I must say this is a surprise to me too. I would interpret it to mean 3
> >reverts of the same material not of three different additions to the same
> >article.

> As would I.

> >The interpretation you argue for makes removal of nonsense unnecessarily
> >burdensome and risky.

> Agreed.

> >If it is to be interpreted that way it needs to be changed.

> I haven't seen any other admins interpreting it that way.

I have, lots. It was interpreted as "a revert is a change to any previous
version" after Cantus started taking the piss by doing reverts to slightly
different previous versions.

Of course, 3RR blocks can be removed before 24 hours if an admin considers
the editor is not likely to do it again. I just went to unblock
Slrubenstein and saw he appears unblocked already.

- d.


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: me and my three reverts

body:
Pete/Pcb21 wrote:
> >Yes, and there are some good reasons to interpret it fairly literally,
> >while at the same time leaving a little breathing room for common
> >sense recognition that randomly changing one irrelevant word in a
> >different part of the article is still a revert.
>
> The problem with interpretations and hundreds of admins is that it only
> needs one admin with a "hardline" attitude for the user to be blocked
> (however temporarily). Under the current model, the will of the mass of
> the community is irrelevant, it is the outlying opinions that have most
> weight.

Yes, this is a tough one.

--Jimbo


subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
Ray Saintonge (saintonge at telus.net) [050203 05:02]:

> It's all about a literal vs. a common sense approach to rules.  A
> strict  literal interpretation which Tony has apparently applied then
> starts to beg questions like, "How exactly do we interpret 'revert'?"
> Lying in wait like a stalking lion for anyone to violate the 3RR
> anywhere is clearly an abuse of process

Of course, editors have the option of not performing more than 3 reverts in
24 hours ...

> If in the course of these reverts there is also movement in the
> controversy, that is a sign of progress.  The possibility remains that
> the combatants may find an agreeable solution after a few more reverts.
> The 3RR can prevent the solution.

They should be doing it on the talk pages, not on the article. That some
revert wars may achieve a solution does not make them a good tool for
achieving a solution. Three reverts in 24 hours is an electric fence, not
an entitlement.

Remember, an admin is free to unblock someone blocked for 3RR if they think
they won't do it again and understand it's a bad idea.

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] os.wikipedia.org (Cyrillic only will do)

body:
That is, other than the Chinese vernacular requests, which appear to
be quite popular.

Mark

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:08:00 +0100, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> Brion's remarks were about updating language files, not about starting
> an Ossetic Wikipedia. I hope that that will be created soon, as I
> think it's one of the most major candidates among those that do not
> yet exist.
>
> You will be using the Russian language time for the time being, I suppose?
>
> Andre Engels
>
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:55:35 +0300, V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I do realise that developers have lots of things to do, but I'd like
> > to know the approximate date, when the Ossetic wikipedia could be
> > started. While the full application is already there --
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages -- I've
> > never received any confirmation as "don't worry, we have noticed your
> > request and the work will be done by, say, March 2005".
> >
> > Thank you in advance for your attention and concern,
> >
> > Slavik IVANOV
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
steven l. rubenstein said:
> I am, however, sorry that Tony Sidaway so capably manages to combine
> ignorance with arrogance.  I say this in good faith: Tony, before
> putting  in your two cents (not adjusted for inflation), please check
> out the  history of the conflict.  I have been working on the Race
> article for some  time, and I can tell the difference between someone
> who knows what they are  doing and someone who does not.

The article history doesn't matter. It won't actually be a disaster for the
article to have something stupid in it for ten minutes.

As [[WP:3RR]] points out: "If the edit really needs reverting that much,
somebody else will probably do it". If you've used up three reverts, then
either someone else will do the next lot or *maybe it doesn't matter that
much*.

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Yes, but it has not been released yet, and according to Brion we won't
>use it until it is.
>
>So, unless they want to wait until some time in 2006 for their own
>Wikipedia, we'll have to make do with a non-3-letter code.
>
>Mark
>
>
The to be released ISO 639 codes will be used in a proper manner; codes
published will only be used for the proposed use and when this use is
withdrawn the codes will not be re-used. I am interested to know WHY we
would not use these codes.

Gerard

>On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 00:22:09 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Mark Williamson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I propose that we use something like fiu-voro as the language code
>>>(there is no ethnolgue code for Voro because it lists it as a dialect
>>>of Estonian).
>>>
>>>The issue of a code nonwithstanding, I think it should be set up right away.
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:11:58 +0000, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no
>>>>reaction on that list....
>>>>
>>>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>From: Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee>
>>>>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200
>>>>Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi?
>>>>To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>>Dear members of the foundaton,
>>>>I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a
>>>>native speaker,
>>>>researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro
>>>>(native name V?ro
>>>>or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric
>>>>languages. It has about
>>>>70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia.
>>>>Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/.
>>>>
>>>>I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We
>>>>can translate
>>>>Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with
>>>>creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few
>>>>speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and
>>>>computerized people and
>>>>the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own
>>>>language. I'm sure the
>>>>number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub,
>>>>Cornish, Gaelic,
>>>>Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have
>>>>discussed the idea of
>>>>V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc.
>>>>(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia).
>>>>They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too.
>>>>Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>There is a code for Voro in the upcoming version of ISO-639 it will be vor.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>    GerardM
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>


from_name: DIG

subject: [Wikitech-l] RSS feed for user's watch list (feature suggestion)

body:
On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 11:51:55PM +0000, Rowan Collins wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:22:06 +0100, DIG <dig.mediazilla at telkel.net> wrote:
> > It would be useful for the wiki contributor to have a RSS feed,
> > containing fresh information about articles from his/her watch list.
>
> You are certainly not the first person to suggest this, although you
> are to be commended for spotting the requirements of the feature
> quicker than some. For one lot of earlier discussion, see
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-December/026558.html
> and its replies, but basically this is a feature waiting for someone
> to volunteer and actually code it - we have lots of those...

Thanks for the pointer.  I didn't expect that I would be the first to propose this feature -- it is too obvious, I just did not find it :-))

So, my suggestion to use pseudo random string (associated with the user's login name and kept in the user's table) in full RSS URL will resolve the privacy problem: the user does not have to be logged in to read the RSS, but she must be logged in to know her RSS link.  And there is no need for public watchlist.

P.S. Sorry for this late answer -- I just found this unsent letter in my ``postponed'' box.

Best regards,

--
DIG (Dmitri I GOULIAEV)
1024D/63A6C649: 26A0 E4D5 AB3F C2D4 0112  66CD 4343 C0AF 63A6 C649


subject: [Wikitech-l] short URLs (really short, almost tiny)

body:
On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 08:56:20AM +0200, NSK wrote:
> On Wednesday 02 February 2005 08:24, DIG wrote:
> > The short URL itself could be something like this:
>
> The code that does this job exists and it is GPL, so it can be
> incorporated in MW easily: The code lies in the Drupal CMS where
> every node can be accessed via a number/code and optionally a
> full name (full URL).

I am not familiar with drupal.  What is the mechanism they use for automatically generate shorten URLs and to keep them consistent in time (we need to make sure that these short URL will live long enough, virtually forever)?

It could be some kind of hash of article's title.  This way it will be reasonably unique, and it can be kept in the database.  Then, when the short URL is requested, the corresponding value substitutes the shorten URL.

Best regards,

--
DIG (Dmitri I GOULIAEV)
1024D/63A6C649: 26A0 E4D5 AB3F C2D4 0112  66CD 4343 C0AF 63A6 C649


subject: [Wikipedia-l] "censorship" On Wikipedia

body:
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/evidhiv.htm

The number of peer reviewed academic studies cited here is
substantial.  And the conclusions reached by careful scientific
analysis appears to be overwhelming.

"In a Canadian cohort, investigators followed 715 homosexual men for a
median of 8.6 years. Every case of AIDS in this cohort occurred in
individuals who were HIV-seropositive. No AIDS-defining illnesses
occurred in men who remained negative for HIV antibodies, despite the
fact that these individuals had appreciable patterns of illicit drug
use and receptive anal intercourse (Schechter et al. Lancet
1993;341:658)."

I urge everyone to read this page very very carefully before
commenting casually on this issue.  Harry, I especially invite you to
read it and see if it changes your opinion that people are "censoring"
you.

--Jimbo

harry wrote:

> Stirling Newberry states:
>
> >There is now a
> >mountain of evidence that HIV is the necessary, though not always
> >sufficient, cause of AIDS.
>
> Again, the standard for "truth" in science is to publish research in
> scholarly scientific journal with peer review. Part of the peer review
> process is to establish whether the research results have been
> replicated by others. After all isn't that what we are after here - the
> "truth". Here are picture of the viruses that cause Polio, the Common
> Cold, and Herpes, http://www.usablemakeover.com/virus_pictures.html
>
>
> So Stirling please cite one study published in a scholarly scientific
> journal with peer review that states "HIV Is The Probable Cause of
> AIDS". Is it cited on Wikipedia for me to read? If not where can I find
> it? At the same time give me one reference to a electron microscopic
> picture of HIV.
>
>
> - Harry Pasternak
>
>

--
"La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org


from_name: Sj

body:
I have to agree with slowking here.  I enjoy your contributions to
this list, christiaan, but please don't start purely political
threads.   _sj_

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:54:18 +0000, Christiaan Briggs
<christiaan at last-straw.net> wrote:
> Chill out Slowking. It's a fascinating article considering current
> events.
>
> Christiaan
>
> On 3 Feb 2005, at 6:20 am, Christopher Larberg wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:15:49 +0000, Christiaan Briggs
> > <christiaan at last-straw.net> wrote:
> >> http://www.last-straw.net/1967propaganda.htm
> >
> > Wikipedia isn't a place for you to advance your political agenda, as
> > I've already pointed out on [[Talk:Iraqi parliamentary election,
> > 2005]]. I would advise you to refrain from using Wikipedia and its
> > associated avenues of communication as such in the future.
> >
> > --Slowking Man


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

body:
Chill out Slowking. It's a fascinating article considering current
events.

Christiaan

On 3 Feb 2005, at 6:20 am, Christopher Larberg wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:15:49 +0000, Christiaan Briggs
> <christiaan at last-straw.net> wrote:
>> http://www.last-straw.net/1967propaganda.htm
>
> Wikipedia isn't a place for you to advance your political agenda, as
> I've already pointed out on [[Talk:Iraqi parliamentary election,
> 2005]]. I would advise you to refrain from using Wikipedia and its
> associated avenues of communication as such in the future.
>
> --Slowking Man


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Yes, but it has not been released yet, and according to Brion we won't
>use it until it is.
>
>So, unless they want to wait until some time in 2006 for their own
>Wikipedia, we'll have to make do with a non-3-letter code.
>
>
Sorry, I'll take it short this time: not using "vor" does not make sense
- it would just mean a 100%: please do double work as next year
everything would then need to be adapted.

If vor is likely to be the code it should be used to avoid
misunderstandings in 2006 as people will ask how come we were not able
to use the official code even it is was known before official release
date. There's no law that prevents us from using it.

My 2 cts. (EURO;-)

Ciao, Sabine


from_name: Michael Keppler

body:
DIG schrieb:
> It could be some kind of hash of article's title.  This way it will be reasonably unique, and it can be kept in the database.  Then, when the short URL is requested, the corresponding value substitutes the shorten URL.

That wouldn't help when renaming/moving articles. To my mind the most
straightforward solution would be to access the article by it's database
id which is both short _and_ (project wise) unique. Naturally you need
some special syntax for that to avoid overlapping with articles that
have numerical titles.

Ciao, Michael.


body:
Hello Felix,

Thank you for writing such an articulate and descriptive email about this.
Many other discussions of the subject have been emotional and incomplete.

Let me second Lars's recommendation of this list of universal articles
(and again,  feel free to edit this list) :

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_all_languages_should_have

I don't know much about arguments for or against getting speakers of
all of these languages to use a single Wikipedia.  But let me point
out, for those new to these language names [and to our list of
language WPs], that Wu is the most widely-spoken language/dialect in
the world which does not yet have its own Wikipedia version.  The
other three most populous languages which don't have their own WP are
also languages related to Chinese.

>From this list of languages, let's look at the top 20 by # of native
speakers, leaving out those familiar to most on this list.  In order
of popularity, do we have wikipedias for them?

Bengali?  Check.  (11+ articles)
Wu?   No.
Javanese?  Check.  (223+ arts)
Telugu?  Check.  (101 arts)
Cantonese?   No.
Marathi?  Check.  (39+ arts)
Tamil?  Check.  (485+ arts)
Min nan?  Check. (550+ arts) ... but controversial, & was initially
hosted on a third-party server.
Gujarati?  Check. (30+ arts)
Egyptian?  Check?  (Arabic, 1500+ arts)
Hunnanese?  No.
Kannada?  Check.  (192+ arts)
Malayalam?  Check.  (117+ arts)
Hakka?  No.
Oriya?  Check.  (1? arts)
Western Panjabi?  Check.  (0.5 arts)
Eastern Panjabi?  No.   [not distinguished from Western Panjabi, above]
Western Farsi?  Check.  (Persian, 1200+ arts)
Bojhpuri?  Check. (1? arts)

[these are all langs with over 25M native speakers ca. 1997, according to:
http://www.nicemice.net/amc/tmp/lang-pop.var]

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:55:15 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
<felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:

> Proposal
>
> I propose that we agree on some policies on setting up a Wikipedia in a new
> language. Since a new Wikipedia will need some good articles to start with
> anyway, we may ask people who propose new Wikipedia to pick some topics
> from the 1000 essential articles and write say at least 3 good articles of moderate
> length and 20 good stubs in the proposed script. A possible location without new
> setup for those experimental articles will be on meta by using pages with prefixes
> like "Wikipedia:New/zh-yue-han/", "Wikipedia:New/zh-wuu-han/",
> "Wikipedia:New/zh-guoyu-pinyin/". (By the way, I support Pinyin Wikipedia. If
> there is a "Simple English" version, why not a pinyin version for people to learn
> Chinese?)

I like this idea.  3 good articles and 20 good stubs, with a
translated main page, should be sufficient interest to start a new
language/dialect, or at least to provide content on which to base
arguments about why the new project should not start.

I would put such new content on Meta, with pages like
meta.wikimedia.org/New-lang/yue/Main Page
meta.wikimedia.org/New-lang/pinyin/Zhongguo

I don't have anything personal against nomenclature like zh-min-nan,
zh-yue-han, etc; particularly if that allows us to use some
third-party group's decisions on nomenclature; but the above short
names should at least identify the proposed new wikipedia
unambiguously.

--
+sj+


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: me and my three reverts

body:
Pete/Pcb21 (pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com) [050203 08:47]:
> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

> >Yes, and there are some good reasons to interpret it fairly literally,
> >while at the same time leaving a little breathing room for common
> >sense recognition that randomly changing one irrelevant word in a
> >different part of the article is still a revert.

> The problem with interpretations and hundreds of admins is that it only
> needs one admin with a "hardline" attitude for the user to be blocked
> (however temporarily). Under the current model, the will of the mass of
> the community is irrelevant, it is the outlying opinions that have most
> weight.

Other admins have the option of unblocking an egregious block.

And, you know, editors have the option of not reverting more than three
times in a day.

- d.


body:
On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 08:47:21AM +0100, Michael Keppler wrote:
> That wouldn't help when renaming/moving articles. To my mind the most
> straightforward solution would be to access the article by it's database
> id which is both short _and_ (project wise) unique. Naturally you need
> some special syntax for that to avoid overlapping with articles that
> have numerical titles.

If the article is renamed, and there is no redirection from old place -- then this article is gone.  So that's OK, if short URL will be transformed into non-existent article (with the standard "Would you like to create this article?" message).

The short URL should be associated with the name of article, not with its content.

Best regards,

--
DIG (Dmitri I GOULIAEV)
1024D/63A6C649: 26A0 E4D5 AB3F C2D4 0112  66CD 4343 C0AF 63A6 C649


from_name: Lars Alvik

body:
P? 3. feb. 2005 kl. 03:55 skrev Felix Wan:

> Proposal
>
> I propose that we agree on some policies on setting up a Wikipedia in
> a new language. Since a new Wikipedia will need some good articles to
> start with anyway, we may ask people who propose new Wikipedia to pick
> some topics from the 1000 essential articles and write say at least 3
> good articles of moderate length and 20 good stubs in the proposed
> script. A possible location without new setup for those experimental
> articles will be on meta by using pages with prefixes like
> "Wikipedia:New/zh-yue-han/", "Wikipedia:New/zh-wuu-han/",
> "Wikipedia:New/zh-guoyu-pinyin/". (By the way, I support Pinyin
> Wikipedia. If there is a "Simple English" version, why not a pinyin
> version for people to learn Chinese?)

There exist such a list on meta, i belive it hasn't been updated lately
and perhaps could need a "de-americanization".

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/
List_of_articles_all_languages_should_have

mvh.
Lars Alvik
User:Profoss


subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
> In a message dated 02/02/2005 21:43:38 Eastern Standard Time,

> Well, I dont think Srubenstein was whining.

"There is nothing I can do about it, but I do want to point out (and for
now, this is the only available venue) that I think this is an example of
a frivolous application of the rule," is a whine.


from_name: AndyL

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia cited as source in major newspaper

body:
The Globe and Mail, one of Canada's leading quality newspapers, ran an
article earlier this week on the debate in Barbados on scrapping the
monarchy. The article had a sidebar on the term "Commonweealth realm" at the
bottom of which was a line citingthe Wikipedia article on the subject as a
source!

Good job!


list: textbook-l

from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] thanks for activating the subdomains function!

body:
Just a word of thanks to Brion or other kind soul who
activated the /subdomains function. Thank you! That will
make my work easier and more efficient.

Check out the Emergency Medicine book,
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Emergency_Medicine , a kind
doctor has been working on it feverishly.

Also  a contributer to the Cookbook is complaining about
disorder and wishes to make a separate domain for the
cookbook so that the categories and other functions are
cookbook-focused within the cookbook pages. Opinions?

Karl

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Dante Alighieri

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my 3RR block

body:
I'd just like to take a moment to "defend" my actions in blocking Slrubenstein and Jalnet2. I have no problem with Slr, with whom I've had a very pleasant and civil discourse on the subject (and who, incidentally, I do not think was "whining" about the 3RR, he has some very valid points). My attention is focused towards some individuals who I shall not name (*cough* Ec *cough*) who seemed to be implying that I was somehow "lying in wait" for any excuse to block someone over the 3RR and that I have "as much social grace as an enraged gorilla". Please allow me to respectfully disagree.

I responded to a DIRECT request that Slrubenstein be blocked for violating the 3RR. Note that this direct request was posted not only on the Admin noticeboard, but on my Talk page. Now, in my opinion (as someone who reads the 3RR to mean what it SAYS, "three reverts to the same ARTICLE in 24 hours") was that Slr had obviously violated the rule. That he had pretty clearly been baited was irrelevant. How would it have looked if we ignored a straightforward violation by a longtime contributor and told the "new guy" that he had "done it too" and that that somehow made it OK?

I can't believe I'm getting grief for enforcing policy as I'm SUPPOSED to do as an Admin. Shouldn't we project an appearance of propriety? Shouldn't we block our "friends" as well as our "enemies"?

Anyway, I'd also like to point out that I'm not certain that the ArbCom (which is currently reviewing the 3RR) has the authority and jurisdiction to do so unless the question is raised in a case which they are hearing. I suggest that Slrubenstein either request Arbitration against the rule itself (if that seems feasible within the bounds of our system) or else against me for blocking him (which is probably the best bet, and to which I don't object) so that the ArbCom can officially look into the matter.

-Dante


from_name: Jake Waskett

subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
On Thursday 03 February 2005 09:20, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> > In a message dated 02/02/2005 21:43:38 Eastern Standard Time,
> >
> > Well, I dont think Srubenstein was whining.
>
> "There is nothing I can do about it, but I do want to point out (and for
> now, this is the only available venue) that I think this is an example of
> a frivolous application of the rule," is a whine.

Oh please give it a rest, Tony. This man has raised some excellent points
about the implications of the 3RR that, whether you agree or not, are thought
provoking. Discussion has followed, and perhaps this might lead to some
fine-tuning. I hope so, as it sounds like he was doing nothing but helping
the article, and although it may have applied literally, it probably
shouldn't.

I'm sorry that it offends you and interferes with your advocacy of the
zero-tolerance approach to Wikipedia users (who, I should point out, are
voluntarily giving up their free time to help out with this project to create
a top-quality encyclopaedia and consequently deserve more than a little
appreciation).

Have a heart, and if you can't do that, at least accept that you've said your
piece.

Jake.


subject: [WikiEN-l] me and my three reverts

body:
Jake Waskett said:
>
> I'm sorry that it...interferes with your advocacy of the
> zero-tolerance approach to Wikipedia users.

I am not in favor of a zero-tolerance approach to Wikipedia users.


from_name: Manfred Rebentisch

body:
Hello,
I am new to this list and I don't know about older discussions.

So I ask you: is it interesting for you, to change Wikipedia from PHP to a
C-written engine?

I just in development (most is ready) of a high-performance, high-security
tool, usable for Wikis, CMS or forums. It is Open-Source (GPL). The sources
are not available at the moment, because I make changes every day. But it
need only some weeks... I created two libraries to make a
forum-platform-application: libstd3000c and libcpcgic. The application can
use fastCGI and communicate with Apache as an daemon (FastCGIExternalServer).

I'm writing C-Code since 1987, C++ since 1990 and PHP since many years too. I
switch back to C with modern methods, using objects, encapsulated data,
multithreading and internationalization.  Sophisticated string methods avoid
buffer overflows and consequently use of C-classes make memory management
easy. And, and, and...

Manfred


from_name: Sulev Iva

subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Võro Vikipeediä

body:
It seems that "vor" in the next release of ISO 639 doesn't stand for the V?ro language in Estonia. There is a Voro language
somewhere in Nigeria using SIL code "VOR", see http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=VOR. Probably "vor" is meant for
this African language. We can not use the same code for V?ro in Estonia.

I planned to ask the codes "vro" and "vr" for V?ro (my mother tongue spoken in Estonia) from ISO and Ethnologue. I have no
information that somebody else had asked codes for V?ro.

So it would be great if we could use "vro" or "vr". But if it is impossible so why not to use "fiu-voro" or "fiu-vr" or "fiu-
vro" as a temporary code. But is it hard to change it later into "vro" or "vr"?

Regards
Sulev

3.02.2005 7:51:04, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> kirot':

>Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>>Yes, but it has not been released yet, and according to Brion we won't
>>use it until it is.
>>
>>So, unless they want to wait until some time in 2006 for their own
>>Wikipedia, we'll have to make do with a non-3-letter code.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>The to be released ISO 639 codes will be used in a proper manner; codes
>published will only be used for the proposed use and when this use is
>withdrawn the codes will not be re-used. I am interested to know WHY we
>would not use these codes.
>
>Gerard
>
>>On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 00:22:09 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
>><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Mark Williamson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I propose that we use something like fiu-voro as the language code
>>>>(there is no ethnolgue code for Voro because it lists it as a dialect
>>>>of Estonian).
>>>>
>>>>The issue of a code nonwithstanding, I think it should be set up right away.
>>>>
>>>>Mark
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:11:58 +0000, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no
>>>>>reaction on that list....
>>>>>
>>>>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>From: Sulev Iva <juvasul at ut.ee>
>>>>>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200
>>>>>Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi?
>>>>>To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>>Dear members of the foundaton,
>>>>>I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a
>>>>>native speaker,
>>>>>researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro
>>>>>(native name V?ro
>>>>>or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric
>>>>>languages. It has about
>>>>>70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia.
>>>>>Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/.
>>>>>
>>>>>I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We
>>>>>can translate
>>>>>Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with
>>>>>creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few
>>>>>speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and
>>>>>computerized people and
>>>>>the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own
>>>>>language. I'm sure the
>>>>>number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub,
>>>>>Cornish, Gaelic,
>>>>>Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have
>>>>>discussed the idea of
>>>>>V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc.
>>>>>(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia).
>>>>>They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too.
>>>>>Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>There is a code for Voro in the upcoming version of ISO-639 it will be vor.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>    GerardM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
There is no definitive way to find out what "readers" want.

Also, even the 'majority' of readers aren't interested, doesn't mean
there aren't a great deal of people who are: there are over 100
million Muslims in India, yet they are a minority because there are
over 1 billion people total in India.

Mark

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:52:42 -0500, Stirling Newberry
<stirling.newberry at xigenics.net> wrote:
>
> On Feb 3, 2005, at 12:41 PM, Alex Kwan wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Stirling Newberry wrote:
> >> I thought the question is what the *readers* want.
> >
> > We don't have the resources to find out (I mean, do we do an Internet
> > poll to find out, what?), so we'll probably have to stick with what
> > the writers are willing to contribute.
>
> I don't think an argument from ignorance works here. Is there a large
> body of readers who want wikipedias in vernaculars that diverge from
> Mandrin? This should be something which is documentable. Are there
> schools being set up to teach written vernaculars as opposed to
> standard Mandrin, are there novels, dictionaries etc. being published
> in large numbers, is there a movement. In short, has someone shown a
> notable and documentable desire to separate dialects from Chinese? My
> research (posted some time ago) found a case, but not an overwhelming
> one, for some degree of linguistic separationism in progress. However,
> a stronger case could be made for a desire to incorporate vernacular
> idioms into standard mandrin, or as an important cultural dialect
> within the whole, as there are many culturally significant dialects in
> English which, never the less, are not under going the process of
> linguistic separation.
>
> This resource is here to provide readers with information, those of us
> who write for it have our own motivations, of course, but it must be
> the readers interest, to the extent we can document it, which ought to
> be the final criterion for making decisions.
>
> Instead of arguing with each other about what "we" would like, it seems
> better to spend time finding out what the readers want, and then
> finding a means to provide that.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>