subject: [Wikipedia-l] Desysoping

body:
Jack Lutz wrote:

>Dispute resolution against sysops is currently very, very slim. It should be easier to lose administrator privileges--and these are privileges--than to gain them. I cannot find any information on the consequences of out-of-policy blocks, and Blocking_policy's coverage of ethics consists only of "users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged in conflict." Does that cover personal attacks or threats? Is a sysop permitted to declare text of a user with whom they are in conflict a threat and summarily block them? Yes, I'm talking about TBSDY and User:SS-88 in that case.
>
>
In general, I don't think you'll find a lot of support for desysopping
for one incident.  Desysopping is usually only done in cases that are
either pretty egregious or involve of a pattern of abuse of sysop powers
(especially continuing to do something inappropriate after being warned).

-Mark


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Delirium

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request, and Chinese Wikipedia
	again

body:
Sheng Jiong wrote:

>And lastly I just want to clarity Wikipedia's policy on setting up a
>new Wikipedia: if a group of native speakers want to set up a
>Wikipedia despite the fact that majority of the speakers of that
>language do not wish to do so, should we allow them to have a new
>Wikipedia? As in the case of Cantonese, even Hong Kongers are
>generally opposed to the idea, and should we still allow few advocates
>to have it?
>
>
I think the problem is that we need to define what the language is
before we can determine whether the majority of the language's writers
are in favor of it.  For Wikipedia's purposes, only written languages
are relevant, and it would seem that a majority of people who write in
what they call "written Cantonese" are in favor of the encyclopedia.
What people who *speak* Cantonese but write "standard Chinese" think
isn't the issue, since Wikipedia is a written encyclopedia.   Of course,
the entire debate is over whether "written Cantonese" exists as a real
language in the first place.  That I don't know enough about to comment
on, but it would help if anybody had any information on just how common
this writing system is in Hong Kong, and how many people would be
interested in writing on such a Wikipedia.

It might be worth noting that we had a similar argument over German
earlier.  There are many spoken German dialects, but most people who
speak any of the dialects read and write in "standard German".  However,
recently some people have started writing in written forms of some of
the dialects, and some wanted to create a Wikipedia for those dialects
separate from the main German Wikipedia.

(The longstanding linguistic flamewar over "dialect" versus "language"
looks to be a regular spillover into Wikipedia-l.)

-Mark


list: wikien-l

from_name: Jack Lutz

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
> Shouldn't that be resolution of disputes _with_ sysops?  AFAIK we are all
> still on the same side.

Kind of.

"If you don't like what I did, tough."  Ta bu shi da yu 02:19, 17 Feb 2005
(UTC)


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject:
[WikiEN-l] One reason why Wikipedia is not presently
	classroom-safe

body:
In other words, children should be denied access to the internet unless
their parents choose to expose them to degeneracy? But that is not our
question. Obviously a user of Wikipedia may be occasionally exposed to
material which is inserted as vandalism. The question is whether, after due
consideration, objectionable material is to be included as an accepted part
of our presentation of knowledge.

Fred

> From: "Tony Sidaway" <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:47:08 -0000 (GMT)
> To: <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] One reason why Wikipedia is not presently
> classroom-safe
>
> Arno M said:
>> "Parents and school administrators and especially in the United States,
>> local school boards. A teacher who allows their students free access to
>> Wikipedia is a fool."
>>
>> A similar question involves minors accessing it at home or in some
>> public library that bans access to sexually explicit sites.
>
> In my opinion, Public libraries should not permit unsupervised minors to
> use the internet unless their parents first, being properly informed as to
> the nature of the internet, knowingly and explicitly give the library
> permission to do so.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "The God-King drives a Hyundai"

body:
On Sat, Feb 19, 2005 at 12:23:08PM +1100, David Gerard wrote:
> Ray Saintonge (saintonge at telus.net) [050219 11:22]:
> > David Gerard wrote:
>
> > >An A4 page at 300dpi is 8.7 MB; at 600dpi it's 34.8 MB. How many pages are
> > >there? Time to buy a 1000-stack of DVD-Rs ;-)
>
> > The 1911EB has 29 volumes, of which the last is an index.  Each volume
> > has about 1,000 pages.  Add three volumes for the supplements, and we
> > have a mere 32,000 pages.  David, was your estimate based on colour
> > scanning?  Wouldn't monochrome scanning take less space?  There are very
> > few colour pages.
>
>
> Greyscale (one byte per pixel, 210 x 297 / 2.54 / 2.54 * 300 * 300 pixels).
> You could probably reduce it to four bits per pixel. I wouldn't suggest
> going to three. I did this last year scanning in a pile of stuff.

Why should it be kept uncompressed, or compressed by throwing away the lowest bits ?
There are pretty good algorithms for compressing text, like djvu.

Anyway, the 32000 pages in 8-bpp 600 dpi take just about 1 terabyte.
That's not much.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews requirement

body:
Ray Saintonge a ?crit:

> A common phenomenon that affects all projects.  Most of us like to
> contribute without being trapped on a merry-go-round of bickering.
>
>> This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If
>> we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can
>> make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even
>> include instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the
>> Wikimedia spirit (contact stewards etc.)
>>
> Maybe that would have prevented the total shutdown that is taking place
> on the japanese wiktionary.

By the way... Ec and the others... what do you think of the shutdown of
ja wiktionary ?

I am asking the question, because if I put in line

* shut down of wiktionary - after vote and decision by the japanese
community only. No opposition clearly voiced after the shut down.

* opening of wikinews - after decision by Erik, with 5 editors support
and against french community opinion - clear complaints after the opening.

* prospective opening of chinese wikinews - a poll made on meta show a
lack of clarity on whether the decision should be made 1) with 5 editors
or 2) with a global vote or 3) with a chinese vote

So, the least we can say, is that in terms of opening projects, or
closing projects, is that THERE IS NO CONSENSUS ON HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE :-)

Ant


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews requirement


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Distributed proofreading (was "The God-King drives
	a	Hyundai")

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
>> I think this is a wonderful idea. But to work we would need some
>> software
>> features that currently do not exist (scanned image side-by-side with
>> wiki
>> page; each in its own HTML frame).
>
> Doesn't the Gutenberg Distributed Proofreaders project already do this
> sort of thing?
>
> http://www.pgdp.net/c/default.php

It does, but what does it do with the raw scanned version after the
proofreading is done?  For much of what we have now what we and PG do is
adequate, and it probably satisfies the needs of the average person who
wants to read those texts.  For literary works in Roman script and other
highly textual material there should be little problem, but we would
like the illustrations too in the scientific works.

The availability of the original scans would be our guarantee of the
authenticity of our content.  That's a significant factor in times when
credibility is a big complaint about anything that appears on the net.
When the proofreading for a book has been completed a text file should
remain the primary avenue to a work, but we would give a reader the
opportunity to see what the work really looked like when it was
printed.  The graphic version could probably be on a low traffic server.

Ec


list: wiktionary-l

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Re: The Japanese Wiktionary have been locked
	temporarily

body:
cookfire a ?crit:
> When reading the eG's message, I was also wondering what is so special
> about Japanese copyright law that it makes building up a free dictionary
> harder than in other languages. I must say that I do understand the
> problem with vandalism. Since the summer the English Wiktionary gets a
> lot of vandalism and spamvertising too. The months before that the
> problem was far less. The French, Dutch and Spanish Wiktionaries are
> relatively calm as far as vandalism is concerned, but maybe the Japanese
> Wiktionary attracts Chinese spammers as well. What I see as a solution
> is to create a broad base of sysops, so obvious vandalism and
> spamvertising can be killed on the spot (and thus only wastes the time
> of one person). Of course the trick is to find dependable people who are
> able and want to consacrate a lot of time to the project. It takes a bit
> of time for them to show up, but they do exist.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Polyglot

It is true having much more sysops would help, but if a few people only
come to the place, it will not change anything

A solution might rather be the possibility for combined recent changes

Ant


from_name: Lars Aronsson

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> > An A4 page at 300dpi is 8.7 MB; at 600dpi it's 34.8 MB. How many
> > pages are there? Time to buy a 1000-stack of DVD-Rs ;-)
> >
> The 1911EB has 29 volumes, of which the last is an index.  Each
> volume has about 1,000 pages.  Add three volumes for the
> supplements, and we have a mere 32,000 pages.  David, was your
> estimate based on colour scanning?  Wouldn't monochrome scanning
> take less space?  There are very few colour pages.

Sorry, this discussion is painfully clueless.  If you really want to,
you can learn the basics of document imaging on your own in a week by
using Google.  Get a scanner, an OCR program, download some free
software and start to play around.

Digitizing encyclopedias can be done.  No magic.  A typical volume of
800 pages might take 160 megabytes in images and 5 megabytes in plain
text.  You will want to cut the spine off the books and use a sheet
feeding scanner.  No sweat.  Old encyclopedias are cheap on Ebay or in
your local second hand shop, since no sane person would buy one and
the insane usually have less money.

However, I doubt that this should be a part of Wikipedia / Wikimedia.
Distributed Proofreaders and the Internet Archive are already doing
important parts of what you ask for.  I think Wikipedia should consume
the results, not produce them.

For example, while digitizing yet another year run (1893) of a
Norwegian engineering journal the other day, I found a nice
illustration http://runeberg.org/tekuke/1893/0161.html
that I cut out and uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons, and used in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architect

Instead of inventing the wheel all over again, perhaps you should get
involved in Distributed Proofreaders and help improve their system.

> The online images is an interesting proposal.  Not long ago on the
> list there was mention of a Swedish project that includes both a
> scanned and OCR version of a page.

Hi there!

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Project Runeberg - free Nordic literature - http://runeberg.org/


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
Puddl Duk said:
>
> Well, the point I was attempting to make was that when
> the community exercises it's judgment not to use an
> image, its not censorship.
>
I'm not going to get involved in this, but I want to make two points:

1. What you describe above is clearly censorship
2. What's wrong with that?


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
Puddl Duk said:
>
>
> The fact remains, wikipedia is not censored.

I don't think that's correct.  The most obvious form of censorship
practised is the avoidance of descriptive terms that carry an emotive
payload.  This is a good thing.  If I encounter an article saying that a
prisoner at Abu Ghraib was sodomized by a US Military Police guard, I am
informed.  If I encounter the same article but it says that the man was
sodomized by a thug in American uniform, the informational content is
roughly the same but there is an emotional overtone that would make me
question the piece. Censorship is a necessary activity at all levels of
production of an encyclopedia.  No describing people as thugs in the
articles, even if they act like thugs.  That's censorship.  I don't think
there's anything wrong with censorship.  We're censors.


body:
BJ?rn Lindqvist said:
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary)>> I listed it.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Donkey_punch
>>
>> Although the article has only been listed for only two days, so far
>> there is a 2:1 majority vote for keep.
>> In my opinion this kind of article would render Wikipedia difficult to
>> describe as "safe for classroom use"; also teachers recommending it to
>
> Why? What is "safe for classroom"?

Safe in the sense that a teacher can use it without risking making tabloid
headlines when little Jimmy tells Mommy about Dirty Sanchez.
>
>> younger children for homework research would be put at risk of censure
>> because of articles like this.  Whatever those who voted think
>> Wikipedia
>
> Who would put them at risk?

See above.


body:
Arno M said:
> "Parents and school administrators and especially in the United States,
> local school boards. A teacher who allows their students free access to
> Wikipedia is a fool."
>
> A similar question involves minors accessing it at home or in some
> public library that bans access to sexually explicit sites.

In my opinion, Public libraries should not permit unsupervised minors to
use the internet unless their parents first, being properly informed as to
the nature of the internet, knowingly and explicitly give the library
permission to do so.


from_name: Aphaia

subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement

body:
Summary:
my arguments are
-basic rules should be established *before* the project should start
-and it means a enough number of people who are experienced at the aim
of project and/or
our policies and ideals, like NPOV, but with some modifications and
adoptations, if necessary
-it is strongly recommanded the newly created community has a good
preperation, specially if they had a waiting time before their reqeust
would be approved.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:34:05 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> >If you mean by COPYING rules, just going to the english version and copying the rules of the english version, I will object that no project should exist which has no community able to make their own rules.
> >
> Exactly!  It makes me wonder about those people who feel that they
> cannot function unless they have previously adopted a complete system of
> rules.  Except for broad questions of fundamental principles communities
> must preceed rules.

Agreed. The question is what are those "fundamental principles". We
see each Wikimedia project has different opinion except NPOV and GFDL.
Some communities count only board and the Founder's former
instructions, other include other community based idea like "Be bold".
So for saving a mess on some projects - wolof wp and ja wiktionary are
unfortunate cases among ours - and for helping newly being created
projects, it would be helpful to show what are our fundamental
principals.

It is more than those principals are written in letters. It is true
here "letters kill you,  but the spilit makes you alive". Avoiding wo
wp case, the community could understand those principals and apply to
their actual cases. In my opinion this assertion has two corollaries:
1) those principals could be modified applying the actual experiences
on the community and 2) for this purpose, that is, its good
understanding  there should be people who know the aim and mechanism
of the project to some extent.

So it seems to me a reasonable requirement that a new project should
be began by a certain number of experienced people who have been
already active on some project. In most cases 50 edits are enough show
their behaviour and their and understanding to the policies in my
opinion, and it is different from shutting out newbies: it takes two
days to make 50 major edits, if they spent whole a weekend for
activity on wiki. (well I however admit it might be a view of heavy
wikiholics prausibly ...)

On the other hand, I agree with Ray on that most of rules would
however be developed on the community through their activities, not
preceeding its creation. But to manage difficult cases experience on
other projects is helpful: the people who commit a project and/or the
entire Wikimedia project, if possible, with sufficient understanding
of policies and its mechanism. So here we expect experienced people at
the beginning point of a certain project. Or

> Perfectly predictable when the rules are nothing but words.

such a situation would come up again, I assume.

> >Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual
> >interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the
> >project.
> >
> People need to do both.  Mere translation is a mechanical act.  There is
> a need to discuss how those policies guide our activity.  Policies
> beyond fundamental principles can and should vary between projects

So the question is what are "fundamental principles". I think we must
make it clear and provide a set of those principles in a form as
neutral as possible (not depending on a certain project but also
refertable to some concrete cases for further understanding). For
example, NPOV guidelein in NPOV (not depending on a certain language
project matters) ... as a startpont for each participants who want to
create a new project.

> Maybe that would have prevented the total shutdown that is taking place
> on the japanese wiktionary.

We can point out some factors of  JA wikt shutdown, though I myself
was not wholely clear the situation; I had been  very inactive there
during some months. And after I was back, I was surprised there were
no changes or progress on policies' drafting  before I had left it.
There were almost no discussion on Beer Parlour (VP of wiktionary). It
makes me convince strongly a new project need both people who concern
policies and administrative issues (though it is not so fun than
submission of new entires) and eager submitter of contents.

--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement


subject: [WikiEN-l] autofellatio image : back to square 2

body:
Arno M said:
> Oh dear!
>
> The new sketch is now on that autofellatio page - but not as a link,
> even though the community vote favoured a link.

The community vote concerned the photograph, not the sketch.  The poll,
which is ongoing, has not yet reached even a rough consensus.  Last time I
looked it was going in the direction of linking but still only around 62%.


body:
Arno M said:
>
>
> I think the vote covers this new image, which was linked for a while.

No.  The sketch was introduced after the poll started.  The file of the
original photograph, which is linked, has from time to time been
overwritten by the sketch for reasons I don't understand.


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
Jack Lutz wrote

>Dispute resolution against sysops is currently very, very slim. It should
be easier to lose administrator privileges--and these are privileges--than
to gain them.

Shouldn't that be resolution of disputes _with_ sysops?  AFAIK we are all
still on the same side.

 If I can rephrase the second sentence, you think that admins should be
deprived of their status by some process than is simpler than their
election - which is a community vote by logged-in folk.  Well, taking them
off the list is easy enough.  It should happen, occasionally, I agree.  It
should probably happen to any admin who no longer is generally trusted by
the community.  How is one supposed to judge that, other than another poll?
If the problem is egregious abuse of powers, that is another question, I
think.

Charles


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Mark Williamson (node.ue at gmail.com) [050219 09:55]:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:49:19 +0100, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> > Ray Saintonge schrieb:

> > > I've long felt that the 1911EB should be carried in its entirety on
> > > Wikisource, as should the 1921 12th edition.  (The 12th was just a
> > > repeat of the 11th edition with 3 supplementary volumes, which probably
> > > explains why it is so seldom mentioned.)  That would be an enormous
> > > task.

> > Maybe we can get a "real" copy of the 1921 edition to WikiMania, and
> > have scanners/digital cameras manned with volunteers. Once we have
> > everything as images, we can OCR/type/proofread online in a distributed
> > fashion. We're kinda good at that :-)

> Alternatively, we could store it as images online. That would take a
> lot of bandwidth, but... it would preserve the original much much
> better.

An A4 page at 300dpi is 8.7 MB; at 600dpi it's 34.8 MB. How many pages are
there? Time to buy a 1000-stack of DVD-Rs ;-)

- d.


from_name: Sheng Jiong

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request,
	and Chinese Wikipedia again

body:
> If I recall correctly there was never a consensus in zh.wikipedia that
> a Minnan Wikipedia should be created.

That is why it has made Minnan Wikipedia a big joke. Extremely few
Minnan speakers (even in Taiwan) can understand what the hack these
guys are writing about in their Minnan Wikipedia. Because Minnan
simply do not yet have a standardised writing system (despite
Taiwanese government's effort to establish one, most grown-ups in
Taiwan sitll cannot comprehend written Minnan, and there is no Minnan
newspaper, only one TV channel)

> Its original creation was as an entirely separate project "Holopedia"
> due to extreme community opposition from zh.wikipedia and the
> probability that people like Jimbo would at the time have been
> unwilling to consider it if his anonymous Chinese advisors said
> "????????????".

And Holopedia does not grow too.

> As it was eventually turned into a small Wikipedia with a small number
> of articles (rather than 0), the general Wikipedia community accepted
> it somewhat hesitatingly although on zh.wikipedia it was widely
> disputed as to whether it should exist.

Because people choose to igonore it, and because it is just so small
and it is almost non-existent. But I am not prepared to accept another
Cantonese Wikipedia, and then Shanghainese, and then whatsoever trash.

> Especially different in this case is use of Cantonese characters
> instead of Whites' languages' characters.

There are not standard. No one has formalised these "characters", not
the Hong Kong government (both before and after 1997), not the
Guangdong government, not any governments in the world. There is also
not a standard developed by any influential non-government
organizations.

> Some people will ask "What
> is the difference?" but many of these people are the same people who
> would "correct" vernacular content posted to zh.wikipedia itself,
> showing that there really is a difference (I tried it once - it kept
> being reverted to the "correct" grammar ie baihuawen).

Your edit is reverted because you used these non-standard characters.
But put characters aside, the grammar is the same for Cantonese and
Chinese.

> This is the issue of self-determination of this community of people
> writing colloquial Cantonese, it is not fair to let others decide to
> make them choose between writing Baihuawen or not write at all.

We are now seeing a small portion of Cantonese speakers who believe
that there should be something as a Cantonese Wikipedia. But for most
Cantonese speakers (even if you just limit that to Hong Kongers), most
people object such proposals because most people know that Cantonese
is NOT a written language. Again I want you to show me evidence that
Cantonese IS a written language (do not tell me X books are written in
Cantonese, because these are just 1 or 2 exceptions. What I want to
see is 1) has any school began teaching WRITTEN CANTONESE; 2) has any
newspapers/magazines started writing in Cantonese)

[[User:Formualx]]

> As for the bible in Cantonese, yes there are, and they are still used.
>
> There are also versions in Hakka (kejiahua), Wu, Minnan, and all other
> Chinese vernaculars. Most of them use hanzi, but some use Whites'
> languages' characters, and some use a mixture (representing only some
> functions words with the roman letters).
>
> I daresay that most of these aren't widely used but this is for the
> alternative reason that Christianity is, for various reasons, not well
> tolerated in China (except in ethnic minorities), and outside the
> mainland most Chinese speak Cantonese, Minnan, and Hakka besides
> Mandarin. Thusly Minnan and Hakka bibles are used by some peoples in
> Taiwan, and Cantonese and Hakka bibles is used by some people in
> Hongkong and maybe Macao.
>
> This delves into the debate on whether the Bible should be written in
> an extra formal literary language that is difficult to imagine
> happening (in most of the widely-used English translations, it's
> difficult to imagine real people in real situations speaking that
> way), or to use a colloquial style that is easier for people to
> understand and relate to.
>
> I, not being religious (and what religion I do have is an amalgamy of
> Judaism and Christianity but with more Atheism than either), don't
> have a preference, but in Bible translation it is always a
> consideration.
>
> Some Arabic churches prefer to read the Bible with God's speech in a
> formal manner, while others use local colloquial forms because it is
> easy to imagine people saying the words, in real life, although I
> think most Arab churches use vernacular versions (the exception would
> be churches where there is populations from many different dialects -
> it would be difficult to read vernacular Bibles in a church which is
> 25% Algerian, 25% Yemeni, 25% Lebanese, and 25% Bahraini, you would
> need 4 different bibles)
>
> Mark
>
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:18:47 +0800, Sheng Jiong <sheng.jiong at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Guys, I do admire your passion and your enthusiasm (although I have no
> > idea how long will that last). I am not against you having a try on
> > writing serious things in Cantonese (which you have not yet quite
> > started, as far as I know, since till now all you have written are
> > just stubs less than even 200 characters). I still hold my opinion
> > that there is not a necissity for a Cantonese Wikipedia(or any other
> > Chinese dialect Wikipedias) to exist, but I encourage helpful
> > discussions and even a vote if necessary should you decide to formally
> > propose setting up one. What I do not want to see is the set up of a
> > Cantonese Wikipedia without the consent of the entire Wikipedia
> > community, especially the Chinese Wikipedia community (as in the case
> > of Ming-nan Wikipedia).
> >
> > (Someone mentioned about Bible translated into Algerian Arabic. I just
> > wonder: is there any Cantonese translations of Bible, and if there is,
> > is anybody still uses this version?)
> >
> > [[User:Formulax]]
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Arno M

subject: [WikiEN-l] One reason why Wikipedia is not presently classroom-safe

body:
"Parents and school administrators and especially in the United States, local school boards. A teacher who allows their students free access to Wikipedia is a fool."

A similar question involves minors accessing it at home or in some public library that bans access to sexually explicit sites.

--
_______________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Lolicon page image

body:
Tony Sidaway said:

"Sean Barrett said:
>> Was the spaniel equipped with a large dildo?
>
> No, I must confess that I missed that detail in my cursory glance at
> the [[Lolicon]] image.

Arguably it isn't just the dildo, it's the composition.  It's a child
posed erotically.  The look on the child's face is one of submission.  The
viewpoint is that of the abuser.  I'm familiar with the suncream ad and
none of those elements is present."

I missed that thing, too. It could perhaps come out, in favour of
a milder example of this, um, phenonomen.

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body:
Now I just want to do a summary of my opinions, and I hope
pro-Cantonese Wikipedians can offer good and sensible answers to my
doubts.

1) Cantonese is not a written language. It is a spoken dialect(or
language, whatever you call it). The current Chinese Wikipedia is
written in standard Chinese language, which can be read in Mandarin or
Cantonese or whaever dialect you choose. Not everybody can speak
Mandarin, but most Chinese can read standard Chinese written language.
Therefore Cantonese Wikipedia should not exist because it is not a
written language and Cantonese speakers can understand Chinese
Wikipedia.

2) Even if Cantonese is, as some insist, a written language, it does
not yet have a standardised writing system. There is not a definite
grammar, not a definite set of distinct Cantonese characters to be
used. It would be hard even for native Cantonese speakers to
understand Cantonese articles that try to explain such sophiscated
topics like Theory of Relativity.

3) It is not easy to write entirely in Cantonese, as some of you have
already discovered. And neither has anyone written anything in
Cantonese entirely that has been accepted by the general public.

4) Wikipedia is a serious collaborative encyclopedia project. We are
not advocating the use of Cantonese as a written language. The fact is
hardly anyone today write in Cantonese, and so let it be. It is not
Wikipedia's responsibility to educate the public or to change their
behaviours. If one day Cantonese has indeed become a widely accepted
written language I would not oppose the set up of a Cantonese
Wikipedia.

And lastly I just want to clarity Wikipedia's policy on setting up a
new Wikipedia: if a group of native speakers want to set up a
Wikipedia despite the fact that majority of the speakers of that
language do not wish to do so, should we allow them to have a new
Wikipedia? As in the case of Cantonese, even Hong Kongers are
generally opposed to the idea, and should we still allow few advocates
to have it?

[[User:Formulax]]


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Desysoping

body:
Hi,

This discussion belongs to wikien-l only.
Please keep it there.

Regards,
Yann

--
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http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


body:
Oh dear!

The new sketch is now on that autofellatio page - but not as a link,
even though the community vote favoured a link.

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from_name: Theresa Knott

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
You want TBSDY desysopped because he  blocked SS-88 after he said this:

"You consider the right side of the fence to be on the side of the
haters. You call us stupid, but you should know that we have a log of
your hatred and abuse of "power" against one of our comrades. THAT WAS
STUPID! Your actions have been documented and have, so far, been
circulated to thousands of aryans who do not look kindly on your type
of hatred. You know what happens to people who ignore history.......
88 !!"

I refer you to the blocking policy:

"Blocks may be imposed in instances where threats have been made or
actions performed (including actions outside the Wikipedia site) which
expose other Wikipedia editors to political, religious or other
persecution by government, their employer or any others. In such a
case a ban for a period of time may be applied immediately by any
sysop upon discovery. "

This looks like a pretty straightforward case to me.

>of "users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged
in conflict." Does that cover personal attacks or threats? Is a sysop
permitted to declare text of a user with whom they are in conflict a
threat and summarily block them?

The reasoning behind this is so that an admin cannot use their powers
to win against an anon admin when they are in a revert war. This is
not the case here. Although it would have probably been wiser for
TBSDY to ask another admin to block SS-88 for making the above threat
I cannot see how it could have been considered an abuse of admin
powers.

Theresa


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject:
[Wiktionary-l] Re: The Japanese Wiktionary have been
	locked	temporarily

body:
Anthere wrote:

>
>
> cookfire a ?crit:
>
>> When reading the eG's message, I was also wondering what is so special
>> about Japanese copyright law that it makes building up a free dictionary
>> harder than in other languages. I must say that I do understand the
>> problem with vandalism. Since the summer the English Wiktionary gets a
>> lot of vandalism and spamvertising too. The months before that the
>> problem was far less. The French, Dutch and Spanish Wiktionaries are
>> relatively calm as far as vandalism is concerned, but maybe the Japanese
>> Wiktionary attracts Chinese spammers as well. What I see as a solution
>> is to create a broad base of sysops, so obvious vandalism and
>> spamvertising can be killed on the spot (and thus only wastes the time
>> of one person). Of course the trick is to find dependable people who are
>> able and want to consacrate a lot of time to the project. It takes a bit
>> of time for them to show up, but they do exist.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Polyglot
>
>
> It is true having much more sysops would help, but if a few people
> only come to the place, it will not change anything
>
> A solution might rather be the possibility for combined recent changes
>
> Ant

Hoi,

My preferred solution would be to have the "ultimate wiktionary". This
would prevent the current trend towards island projects, it would
enhance interoperabilty a lot and, it would make the wiktionary project
more usefull to our end users. They are the ones we do it all for.

Thanks,
    GerardM


body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicholas Knight" <nknight at runawaynet.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] autofellatio image : back to square 2
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:43:58 -0800

>
> Arno M wrote:
> > Oh dear!
> >
> > The new sketch is now on that autofellatio page - but not as a
> > link, even though the community vote favoured a link.
>
> Was there ever a vote on linking anything other than the original image?

I think the vote covers this new image, which was linked for a while.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
I've been watching this guy's edits, but my lack of knowledge of the
complexities of Turkish and Kurdish history make it difficult for me to
judge them without further research.  He does seem to have a bit of a bee
in his bonnet about Kurdish nationalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Coolcat

He says he will be "policing" the following articles:

Kurds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

Kurdistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan

Kurdistan Workers Party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan Workers Party

Abdullah ?calan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah ?calan

Turkey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

Mustafa Kemal Atat?rk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa Kemal Atat?rk

StarCraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft

String theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String theory

Graviton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
Puddl Duk said:
>
>
> The definition of censorship has a componant of
> authority applying the censoring on a community. The
> community doesn't have a say.
>
Even with that extremely tight definition, Wikipedia is censored.  If
Jimbo doesn't want certain content on Wikipedia, he can eliminate it.  I
have no problem with that at all--his ball, his game--but equally I have
no problem with describing it as censorship.  Good job our dictator is
benevolent and wiser than most.


from_name: Puddl Duk

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
--- Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net>
wrote:

> Puddl Duk wrote:
>
> > Ok, I accept your acknowledgment that the
> community exercising it's
> > judgment on image use is not censorship.
>
> I didn't wrote this and I don't believe it. Last
> time I looked
> self-censorship is a type of censorship. I'm not all
> that interested in
> your games Puddl.
>
> Christiaan
>

I'm not playing games. Censorship and self-censorship
are different words with different meanings. I
strongly object to people slapping pejorative labels
on any idea they don't support, and not acknowledging
when they are wrong.

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from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
Puddl Duk wrote:

> Ok, I accept your acknowledgment that the community exercising it's
> judgment on image use is not censorship.

I didn't wrote this and I don't believe it. Last time I looked
self-censorship is a type of censorship. I'm not all that interested in
your games Puddl.

Christiaan


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jim Higson

subject: [Wikitech-l] http content-type for action=raw

body:
I've just noticed that with 1.4 raw text isn't sent compressed.

Since wikitext is already stored gzipped, would it make sense to offer
content-type gzip instead of decompressing on the server?

Most agents support this content type and AFAICS it'd be faster for the
client, and save our bandwidth and cpu time.

--
Jim


from_name: Karl A. Krueger

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Desysoping

body:
On Sat, Feb 19, 2005 at 12:51:46PM +0100, Anthere wrote:
> Non making any comment on whether the person should be unsysoped or not
> unsysoped, I think that as soon as editors question the action of a
> sysop or not, it is worth listening and considering.

I think TBSDY's actions here were entirely justified.  As soon as an
editor makes threats against another editors, the threatener needs to be
taken off the project.  The alternative is to let the situation fester,
ruining articles and eventually leading to us seeing an article on
Wikinews entitled, "Encyclopedia editor killed by online stalker".

Nonetheless ...

> There is an easy way to do this : have it a requirement that listing the
> person on the admin/deadmin list be made  by a sysop himself.

There is a model wherein privileges are conferred upon persons in
recognition of innate virtues, and it is presumed that whatever these
persons care to do with those privileges, they will do so in ways
conformant to those innate virtues.  The commoners are not deemed
competent to judge the privileged:  only a peer can judge a peer.  This
is called aristocracy.

There is another model where responsibilities and the powers to carry
them out are conferred upon persons deemed likely to do so correctly,
but wherein those persons' actions are always subject to review.  The
people are (collectively) deemed competent to judge those thus
empowered, and to remove them from office by due process of recall or
simply by not re-electing them.  This is called republicanism.

--
Karl A. Krueger <kkrueger at whoi.edu>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The Censorship Lie

body:
Nicholas Knight (nknight at runawaynet.com) [050219 10:30]:
> Christiaan Briggs wrote:

> >These are done purely on editorial grounds. When we make a decision to
> >hide or remove an image based on some people's moral objections that it
> >is "pornographic", "disgusting", "sexually explicit", etc. we are not
> >making a purely editorial decision.

> For me, this has about as much to do with morality as my dislike of carrots.

Your objection, as I understood it, was that it was disgusting. Correct me
if I'm wrong, but primarily you seemed to be disgusted.

- d.


body:
Ray Saintonge (saintonge at telus.net) [050219 11:22]:
> David Gerard wrote:

> >An A4 page at 300dpi is 8.7 MB; at 600dpi it's 34.8 MB. How many pages are
> >there? Time to buy a 1000-stack of DVD-Rs ;-)

> The 1911EB has 29 volumes, of which the last is an index.  Each volume
> has about 1,000 pages.  Add three volumes for the supplements, and we
> have a mere 32,000 pages.  David, was your estimate based on colour
> scanning?  Wouldn't monochrome scanning take less space?  There are very
> few colour pages.

Greyscale (one byte per pixel, 210 x 297 / 2.54 / 2.54 * 300 * 300 pixels).
You could probably reduce it to four bits per pixel. I wouldn't suggest
going to three. I did this last year scanning in a pile of stuff.

> The online images is an interesting proposal.  Not long ago on the list
> there was mention of a Swedish project that includes both a scanned and
> OCR version of a page.  A scanned version is helpful for maintaining the
> integrity of a text; a character recognized is better for applying
> search functions and annotations.  The French Gallica collection in pdf
> can be a tremendous resource, but is difficult to use.  There are some
> interesting points to be explored, such as how much can the system handle.

Project Gutenberg and Distributed Proofreaders have web-based software that
apparently does the job well. Scan on one side, OCR on the other, correct.
Do one page at a time, highly parallelisable.

> The idea of having a bunch of volunteers working away in public view at
> Wikimania to put something of the size of EB12 on line has great
> publicity appeal, especially if these volunteers are at it round the
> clock.  Whether the EB should be the only work treated that way at
> Wikimania should remain an open question.  Perhaps the scanned works
> should be in several languages. :-)

Could be very nice. And very geeky. And get EB to say nasty things about us
again ;-)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
--- Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net>
wrote:

> Puddl Duk wrote:
>
> > Ok, I accept your acknowledgment that the
> community exercising it's
> > judgment on image use is not censorship.
>
> I didn't wrote this and I don't believe it. Last
> time I looked
> self-censorship is a type of censorship. I'm not all
> that interested in
> your games Puddl.
>
> Christiaan
>

Censorship has a nasty connotation, because it is
imposed by power on a community and often goes
hand-in-hand with abuse of power. This is exactly
what's different between censorship and
self-censorship. Using the word censorship
incorrectly, as a pejorative label to discredit ideas
they don't agree with, really pisses me off. Double
that when the person doing it can't admit he's wrong.

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from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject:
[Wikitech-l] mailing list floods --> can't we have a wiki with
	E-mail notification ?

body:
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:26:41 +0100, Thomas Gries <mail at tgries.de> wrote:
> Brion, help.
> There are too many mails around - I cannot track them any longer.

Same. I was reading everything for a day or two, decided which topics
I was interested in, found I couldn't even read those, and basically
gave up. I don't understand why things can't go on the talk pages or
meta: and since gmail doesn't thread conversations, it would even be
easier to read.

(I'm subscribed to wikitech, wikipedia and wikiEN)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia as a learning community

body:
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:23:45 +0000, Cormac Lawler <cormaggio at gmail.com> wrote:
> my inquiry. This means that I'd like to (with permission) use
> discussions that arise here as part of my research. The key issue here
> is permission/consent - I wouldn't assume consent unless someone
> explicitly gave me theirs. This then raises the issue of whether I
> would have to write individually to each person whose opinion/mail I
> would like to use, or whether I could use these opinions and assure
> confidentiality as a basic given to all. That is my main question to
> the list - whether this latter approach or the former seem reasonable,
> or what you would suggest I do instead? I'm also interested in
> comparing languages, which is why I'm posting this message to the
> foundation list among others. In addition to this I'll be contacting
> particular individuals for their individual experiences and of course
> consent, but details of that are outside the purpose of this list.

This is a mailing list with public archives. As long as you quote
everybody with good context, providing links back to the message, I
would expect there to be no problems.

Of course, it would be nice if you post the research up on meta or
somewhere else.


from_name: Rick

body:
--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
wrote:

> The article in question is a description of a bit of
> sexual jargon or
> folklore; the kind of stuff you get on Howard Stern.
>  As it seems to me
> that it falls within the remit of the deletion
> policy
>
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary)
> I listed it.
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Donkey_punch
>
> Although the article has only been listed for only
> two days, so far there
> is a 2:1 majority vote for keep.
> In my opinion this kind of article would render
> Wikipedia difficult to
> describe as "safe for classroom use"; also teachers
> recommending it to
> younger children for homework research would be put
> at risk of censure
> because of articles like this.  Whatever those who
> voted think Wikipedia
> is, a classroom-safe reference work is clearly not
> number one on the list.
> This doesn't render Wikipedia content forever
> inaccessible to classrooms,
> however.  This and other articles of its type are in
> the category "Sex
> moves".  These could be filtered out easily during
> production of a
> classroom-safe copy of Wikipedia.

And people say the slippery slope argument is a
fallacy.  Now that it appears that we've bowdlerized
the autofellatio article, it's fair game to go after
every other article with a sexual content?

RickK

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from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Desysoping

body:
Theresa Knott a ?crit:

> The reasoning behind this is so that an admin cannot use their powers
> to win against an anon admin when they are in a revert war. This is
> not the case here. Although it would have probably been wiser for
> TBSDY to ask another admin to block SS-88 for making the above threat
> I cannot see how it could have been considered an abuse of admin
> powers.
>
>
> Theresa

Non making any comment on whether the person should be unsysoped or not
unsysoped, I think that as soon as editors question the action of a
sysop or not, it is worth listening and considering.

That means there must be a clear process where editors can put their
complaint against a sysop and express their wish that this editor is
removed from sysophood. It is important that if there is no more trust
from a sizeable number of editors, sysophood is removed.

I wonder if the simplest thing is not that as soon as a sizeable number
of people doubt that a person should stay a sysop, the process could be
simply that these users should be reconfirmed in their sysop status.

Make it a vote just of the same type of the vote to become of sysop. If
a reasonable number of support is obtained the person stay a sysop, if
not, removed.

The only thing you need to do is that the initial request is made by a
trusted person, to avoid trolling.

There is an easy way to do this : have it a requirement that listing the
person on the admin/deadmin list be made  by a sysop himself.

Ant


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
Puddl Duk (puddlduk at yahoo.com) [050219 12:41]:

> The fact remains, wikipedia is not censored.

The debate was on whether and how to do just that, or to self-censor, on
what grounds and how. It's a long thread and (as you've noted) you've
missed bits; please review.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
Nicholas Knight said:
>> StarCraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft
>
> Good grief. Just out of curiousity I took a look at this one. He's been
>  reverting out perfectly reasonable edits and calling them vandalism.
>
> Also, have a look at his user page, especially his "Things NOT to do"
> speil:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Coolcat#Things_NOT_to_do:
>
> Somebody needs to sit this guy down.
>
> I'm going to jump into the Starcraft article tomorrow after I get some
> sleep and maybe straighten this guy out, but I ain't looking forward to
> it.

I think he's more reasonable that you might think at first sight. For
instance he reverted someone's change today on "Kurdistan" but later
reverted his own edit in favor of the version he had reverted "untill
issue is resolved, see talk."
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurdistan&curid=80777&action=history
This looks to me like a newbie still findng his feet; he probably has the
makings of a good editor, so let's not frighten him off.


from_name: Jack Lutz

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
> You want TBSDY desysopped because he  blocked SS-88 after he said this:

No, I didn't say that, I only asked about his involvement with SS-88 and
recusal. I think TBSDY should be desysoped for blocking a user (NSM88) with
a justification of "Nazi. Literally", i.e. blocking for a user's political
views.


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Fred Bauder said:
> In other words, children should be denied access to the internet unless
> their parents choose to expose them to degeneracy?

Well, unsupervised access, yes.  But I take your point that:

 But that is not our
> question. Obviously a user of Wikipedia may be occasionally exposed to
> material which is inserted as vandalism. The question is whether, after
> due consideration, objectionable material is to be included as an
> accepted part of our presentation of knowledge.

Yes.  I think we should tackle this question face-on.  I won't lose any
sleep, or leave the project, or have a hissy fit, if Wikipedia excludes
objectionable material, because Wikipedia isn't a vehicle for advancing my
point of view.
But at present I think I'm seeing a bifurcation--one which I've tried to
illustrate in recent emails.  Wikipedia at present does not exclude
encyclopedic descriptions of, even legally permissible illustrations of,
objectionable material, including Autofellatio and Lolicon, and at present
we inline even extremely objectionable images such as a picture of an
abused child holding a teddy bear with a dildo.  A vote to delete a
description of a serious and explicitly non-consensual sexual assault
presented as a "sex move" will fall far from gaining a consensus.
We're entering the mainstream, newspapers are starting to cite Wikipedia
articles as background in their stories.  The question of what content is
acceptable on Wikipedia is very important.  Whatever we choose will affect
the way in which our project is perceived by the public.  In its present
form Wikipedia will very soon gain some powerful enemies--this is
unavoidable even if we remove or severely restrict the display of all
objectionable images, because on present form it appears that there is no
consensus to delete articles that will make Wikipedia unacceptable for use
by children.
It's not my concern so much which decisions are made, so much as that the
decision made should be made with open eyes.  Not by the editors, but by
Jimbo and the Board, who own and ultimately take responsibility for this
project.
If Jimbo does not have an appetite for a fight with the religious right of
his country, now is the time to consider toning down Wikipedia content.
Only the board could enforce such a decision.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Desysoping

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

> Nicholas Knight said:
>
>>>StarCraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft
>>
>>Good grief. Just out of curiousity I took a look at this one. He's been
>> reverting out perfectly reasonable edits and calling them vandalism.
>>
>>Also, have a look at his user page, especially his "Things NOT to do"
>>speil:
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Coolcat#Things_NOT_to_do:
>>
>>Somebody needs to sit this guy down.
>>

> I think he's more reasonable that you might think at first sight. For
> instance he reverted someone's change today on "Kurdistan" but later
> reverted his own edit in favor of the version he had reverted "untill
> issue is resolved, see talk."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurdistan&curid=80777&action=history
> This looks to me like a newbie still findng his feet; he probably has the
> makings of a good editor, so let's not frighten him off.

I checked out [[Ataturk]], always a likely hotspot for edit wars, and
his work there in trying to drag the two sides (those that say he was a
murderous dictator and those that hold him in almost iconic status)
towards a NPOV solution seems pretty good. A little abrasive perhaps,
but we tend to put up with that.

NB StarCruft seems to have undergone some refactoring recently so
perhaps maybe there was just a bit of a cockup rather than malice?


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
--- Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net>
wrote:

> Tony Sidaway wrote:
>
> > Censorship is necessary, especially if we are to
> comply with the law.
>
> This is a good example. I have no problem with
> censorship in this
> regard, contrary to what some "pissed off" people
> will have you
> believe.
>
> Christiaan
>

When did I ever 'have you believe' that you don't want
to censor illegal material. I never said this. Don't
put words in my mouth.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com>
wrote:

> Puddl Duk said:
> > Censorship and self-censorship
> > are different words with different meanings.
>
> Up to a point.  Self-censorship is an action that
> can be performed by a
> single person or by a community.  When the community
> performs the
> censorship, the end effect is that the community
> acts as an external
> person censoring the behavior of the individual.
> Again I emphasize that I
> have no problem with the word censorship.
> Censorship is necessary,
> especially if we are to comply with the law.  Every
> time someone deletes
> those diaper pictures, they're censoring Wikipedia,
> and rightly so.
>

I agree with neccisity for self-censorship, based on
the communities judgement. But haven't seen the need
yet for outright censorship.

The diaper pictures is a good example. There have been
several recent new user accounts that dumped a load of
objectionalble material and left. No desire to write
an encyclopedia. We have no speedy delete policy for
these cases. I think this would help.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: The Censorship Lie

body:
Nicholas Knight (nknight at runawaynet.com) [050219 12:23]:
> David Gerard wrote:
> >Nicholas Knight (nknight at runawaynet.com) [050219 10:30]:
> >>Christiaan Briggs wrote:

> >>>These are done purely on editorial grounds. When we make a decision to
> >>>hide or remove an image based on some people's moral objections that it
> >>>is "pornographic", "disgusting", "sexually explicit", etc. we are not
> >>>making a purely editorial decision.

> >>For me, this has about as much to do with morality as my dislike of
> >>carrots.

> >Your objection, as I understood it, was that it was disgusting. Correct me
> >if I'm wrong, but primarily you seemed to be disgusted.

> Which has what to do with morality?

That you seemed to be giving it similar weight as a reason not to have such
an image on that article.

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
--- Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net>
wrote:

> Puddl Duk wrote:
>
> > When did I ever 'have you believe' that you don't
> want to censor
> > illegal material. I never said this. Don't put
> words in my mouth.
>
> You said I was labeling the idea of censorship
> pejoratively. This
> exchange doesn't seem to be going anywhere, we
> should probably let it
> rest.
>
> Christiaan
>

Sure, just don't put words in my mouth that I didn't
say.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] The Censorship Lie

body:
--- Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net>
wrote:

> Puddl Duk wrote:
>
> > When did I ever 'have you believe' that you don't
> want to censor
> > illegal material. I never said this. Don't put
> words in my mouth.
>
> You said I was labeling the idea of censorship
> pejoratively. This
> exchange doesn't seem to be going anywhere, we
> should probably let it
> rest.
>
> Christiaan
>

No, I said you were incorrectly using the term, for
pejoratively purpose.

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body:
eG a ?crit:
> Anthere, as I wrote, I have been trying to recruit contributors among
> Japanese community. I believe this is the best solution and also I
> believe I can accomplish this under the current condition. I don't throw
> out my hope yet. I try my best. Please give us time.
>
> Best,
>
> eG

hi electric.

I understand perfectly well your current problem with the wiktionary.
Don't worry about me. Issue of time won't come from me.

Mostly, good luck :-)

Ant


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Distributed proofreading

body:
Michael Ciesielski wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> Doesn't the Gutenberg Distributed Proofreaders project already do this
>> sort of thing?
>>
>> http://www.pgdp.net/c/default.php
>
> Yup, and we're actively working on EB11. At the moment, the following
> are posted (finished):
>
> http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/200 -- Vol. 1 [*]
> http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/13600 -- Vol. 2, Part 1, Slice 1
>
> Various other parts of many volumes are in progress. If you'd like to
> help, visit <http://www.pgdp.net/> and register a new account. You
> should probably start with some beginners projects to familiarise
> yourself with our Proofreading Guidelines, and then you're welcome to
> work on whatever you like, including the current EB volume being
> proofed: Vol 6 #3 (Chiton to Cincinnati). While you're there, you can
> join Team Wikipedia ;).

Another approach to proofreading is to have it done independently from
the beginning by two different people and using a file compare function
to compare the results.  The benefit here is that it reduces the
possibility that one person might be influenced by another's errors.

I looked at the volume 1 material, notably at "Algae", but the
illustrations are not there.  How does PG plan to deal with illustrations?
How searchable is the PG version?  Would I be able to easily find an
article without downloading the whole volume?  The Algae article
includes a "q.v." to "Bryophyta".  Does PG anticipate that I* would be
able to follow that link with a simple click of the mouse?

> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>> Alternatively, we could store it as images online. That would take a
>> lot of bandwidth, but... it would preserve the original much much
>> better.
>
> When we're working on a particular section, the images are necessarily
> stored online. After a project is posted to Project Gutenberg, the
> scans are archived to a different server so that they can still be
> referred to for corrections. It's planned that One Day the archived
> images will be publicly accessible.

I would support something like that.

Ec


body:
Arno M wrote:

>Oh dear!
>
>The new sketch is now on that autofellatio page - but not as a link,
>even though the community vote favoured a link.
>
Wasn't the vote for a link based on there being a photograph rather than
a sketch?

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
> Everyone is entitled to make a mistake now and then,
> even admins.

TBSDY did not restore the wrong version of a disputed article or
accidentally block a proxy, he used his sysop privileges to block a user
whose views he does not agree with.
That is not a mistake, that is abuse.


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] One reason why Wikipedia is not presentlyclassroom-safe

body:
Fred Bauder:

>>The question is whether, after
> > due consideration, objectionable material is to be included as an
> > accepted part of our presentation of knowledge.

Tony Sidaway:

> Yes.  I think we should tackle this question face-on.  I won't lose any
> sleep, or leave the project, or have a hissy fit, if Wikipedia excludes
> objectionable material, because Wikipedia isn't a vehicle for advancing my
> point of view.
> But at present I think I'm seeing a bifurcation--one which I've tried to
> illustrate in recent emails.  Wikipedia at present does not exclude
> encyclopedic descriptions of, even legally permissible illustrations of,
> objectionable material ...

While this is clearly a matter of ongoing (i.e. permanent) concern, we are
also not going to have a working definition of 'objectionable', now or
later.

[[Wikipedia:Content disclaimer]] is there; [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is
not]] mentions 'Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors'.

The potential of a forked site which contained 90% or more Wiki-en content,
and which would not have to make those disclaimers, is there and growing in
attractiveness with every passing month.  Anyone doing that fork would be
supplying their own operational definition of 'objectionable'; that is
likely to involve self-censorship of some kind, a term I wouldn't accept for
how WP operates.

The operational WP criterion is 'adds to the encyclopedia', and on the whole
this is fine for what we do; its opposite would be more like 'gratuitous',
rather than 'could offend someone'.  It is obvious enough why we can't use
'could offend someone' and still write WP.  I'm not great myself at watching
graphic bits of medical dramas on television; I would make that a reason for
not clicking around pages on surgery, rather than any sort of criterion for
what is there.

Kids and the Internet - well, it's a parental responsibility, like them
crossing the road.

We should not have any 'incitement' at all on WP; that is not about
offending, that is a responsibility as, in effect, a public broadcaster.

There is a bottom line, really, in that those who don't come to WP are
missing out.  The aim anyway is to make WP _more attractive_, rather than
_less unattractive_.

Charles


from_name: Michael Ciesielski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Distributed proofreading

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Doesn't the Gutenberg Distributed Proofreaders project already do this
> sort of thing?
>
> http://www.pgdp.net/c/default.php

Yup, and we're actively working on EB11. At the moment, the following
are posted (finished):

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/200 -- Vol. 1 [*]
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/13600 -- Vol. 2, Part 1, Slice 1

Various other parts of many volumes are in progress. If you'd like to
help, visit <http://www.pgdp.net/> and register a new account. You
should probably start with some beginners projects to familiarise
yourself with our Proofreading Guidelines, and then you're welcome to
work on whatever you like, including the current EB volume being
proofed: Vol 6 #3 (Chiton to Cincinnati). While you're there, you can
join Team Wikipedia ;).

Mark Williamson wrote:

>Alternatively, we could store it as images online. That would take a
>lot of bandwidth, but... it would preserve the original much much
>better.
>
When we're working on a particular section, the images are necessarily
stored online. After a project is posted to Project Gutenberg, the scans
are archived to a different server so that they can still be referred to
for corrections. It's planned that One Day the archived images will be
publicly accessible.

Michael

[*] Note: Volume 1 was posted as the Project Gutenberg Encyclopedia due
to potential trademark issues with the use of the EB name that are now
resolved.


from_name: Richard Holton

subject: [Wikitech-l] E-mail address change at MediaZilla?

body:
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:29:01 -0800, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Richard Holton wrote:
> > On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:31:13 -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
> >>Doesn't seem to be available from user preferences, but I think I can do
> >>it from the admin panel. You want your account moved from the yahoo to
> >>the gmail one?
> >
> > Thanks, Brion! That would be great.
>
> Done. Let me know if you have any problems.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
Brion,

I'm not sure how MediaZilla interacts with wikibugs-l at wikipedia.org,
but I'm still receiving bug change notifications at
rich_holton at yahoo.com, instead of richholton at gmail.com. Any
suggestions?

-Rich


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic Wikipedia: how will we know?

body:
Hi,

I don't know the answer to this, but what I do know is that the self
name of the language would eventually be needed although it's not an
obstacle to creation.

Mark

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:47:17 +0300, V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> ?? ??? ???? ??!
>
> How will we know, when the Ossetic Wikipedia is created? Will there be
> any notification?
>
> Is any data needed to start the Ossetic Wikipedia? I mean, the
> language's self-name or similar things.
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Slavik Ivanov
> http://vicerveza.homeunix.net/osetio
>
> --
> Esperu cxiam!
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

> It's not my concern so much which decisions are made, so much as that
> the decision made should be made with open eyes.

This is a point worth dwelling on.

Christiaan


subject: [WikiEN-l] End-user censorship

body:
I started a page where we can discuss the implementation of end-user
censorship (i.e. the suppression of potentially offensive content):
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/End-user_censorship

Christiaan


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
Not exactly, the articles in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sex_moves

are not "every other article with a sexual content". If it is a slippery
slope, it is not a mysterious un-navigable slipperly slope, or is it? Are
you all confused as to the distinction between an article on Sexual
intercourse and one on Donkey punch?

Fred

> From: Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:43:42 -0800 (PST)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] One reason why Wikipedia is not presently
> classroom-safe
>
>> This and other articles of its type are in
>> the category "Sex
>> moves".  These could be filtered out easily during
>> production of a
>> classroom-safe copy of Wikipedia.
>
> And people say the slippery slope argument is a
> fallacy.  Now that it appears that we've bowdlerized
> the autofellatio article, it's fair game to go after
> every other article with a sexual content?
>
> RickK


subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
--- Jack Lutz <jack-lutz at comcast.net> wrote:

>
>
> > You want TBSDY desysopped because he  blocked
> SS-88 after he said this:
>
> No, I didn't say that, I only asked about his
> involvement with SS-88 and
> recusal. I think TBSDY should be desysoped for
> blocking a user (NSM88) with
> a justification of "Nazi. Literally", i.e. blocking
> for a user's political
> views.

So you think it's appropriate to have a User name with
88 in it (coded for "Heil Hitler") and to post a photo
allegedly of themself in a Nazi uniform?

RickK

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body:
MilchFlasche, this is impossible because they are the same! Oh no! ;p

Sheng Jiong, you have lied about speaking Shanghainese as your native
language. I know this because there are large grammatical differences
between Shanghainese and Baihuawen that you seem to overlook,
suggesting you don't know it at all.

One example is the existance in Wu of the particle "teuq7" meaning
"with", that doesn't exist in Mandarin. There is a character to write
it, I have seen it before, but I cannot remember it.

Some examples of Cantonese grammar differences:

Mandarin/Baihua: ??????.
Cantonese: ??????. (notice position of "?")

Mandarin/Baihua: ???????.
Cantonese: ??????. (notice position of "?" and use of ? vs ?, and
vocabulary difference of monosyllabic Cantonese word for "things" vs
disyllabic Mandarin word)

Mandarin/Baihua: ????.
Cantonese: ????. (notice use of "?" vs "?", entirely different sentence order)

Mandarin/Baihua: ????
Cantonese: ???.

Mandarin/Baihua: ?????.
Cantonese: ????.

Mandarin/Baihua: ???.
Cantonese: ????.

Mandarin/Baihua: ??????
Cantonese: ??????

So please stop spouting crap about how there is completely the same
grammar and that the only difference is these unstandard characters.

Also there is much differences in Shanghainese too, if you want I can
maybe type some examples later.

Mark

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:19:02 +0800, MilchFlasche??
<robertus0617 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Bonjour,
>
>
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:48:13 +0800, Sheng Jiong <sheng.jiong at gmail.com> wrote:
> > You have argued that Cantonese is a written language, using the
> > differences between Cantonese and Mandarin as evidence. But as I have
> > suggested both Mandarin and Cantonese are just spoken languages, but
> > when it comes to writing everyboy today in China, Hong Kong or Macau
> > uses the same written language: Baihuawen.
> >
> > formulax
> However, the fact is that you can't never make a clear cut between
> spoken and written language
> so simply --- although this could be fulfilled in the case of Classic
> Chinese (Wenyan). Which tongue do you use to read Baihuawen out loud?
> Do you use your Wu pronunciation to read them and communicate with
> others? What would such utterance become? Nothing, I guess. We just
> don't use vernacular way to read Baihuawen. So what's behind it? We
> all use the same written language Baihuawen, because it came with the
> same common spoken language: Mandarin. But this has nothing to do with
> other spoken languages, and neither with the fact that there is
> Cantonese in written forms on the web everywhere. In Taiwan forums,
> opinions written in Cantonese are not so unfamiliar, and people are
> often asked politely to translate them in Mandarin, or even such texts
> are banned. Now, if there are only FEW people writing Cantonese, then
> where do these people come from? Links of two major Taiwanese forums
> are given below:
> http://forum.moztw.org/viewtopic.php?t=4286
> (the official Mozilla forum of Taiwan) discussing whether written
> Cantonese should be banned.
> http://forum.palmislife.com/viewthread.php?tid=9277&fpage=1
> (the largest Palm PDA site in Taiwan) especially this
> sentence:"?????????????????", asking HongKongers discussing in
> Mandarin.
>
> Examples are plenty and not hard to find.
>
> --
> 2005, make signs happen!
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
After not replying to most of the things you have said for obvious
reason that you ignore my truths, I have still some question for you.

It is: How do you know majority of Chinese cannot read Minnan
Wikipedia? I invite your evidences.

Mark

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:48:13 +0800, Sheng Jiong <sheng.jiong at gmail.com> wrote:
> > "Baihuawen", based on Mandarin
> > grammar, vocabulary, and suches. Is not like Wen Yan, which is more
> > similar to Cantonese or Hakka's grammar and vocabulary, it takes many
> > new characters and discards the widely accepted ones for example your
> > Mandarin loving character ? which replaces perfectly good already used
> > character with even less strokes by far, still used often in writing
> > Minnan in Hanzi.
>
> Is Baihuawen not the standard Chinese? It was created after the May
> Fourth Movement in 1919, and has already been widely accepted in
> Chinese society before 1949. Are not newspapers in Hong Kong write in
> Baihuawen too?
>
> You are deliberately associating the concept of "standard Chinese"
> with classic Chinese (Wen Yan), which is actually not the standard
> Chinese today (for it is neither taugt in schools as a way of writing,
> and neither is it used in most publications).
>
> > There IS SCHOOL TEACHING in WRITTEN CANTONESE. It is not primary
> > school, no, but there is course at a Hong Kongs university about how
> > to write in "colloquial cantonese", and expectation that when it
> > finishes the courses series it can write long articles even books in
> > colloquial cantonese and have some small experts knowledge about it.
>
> So? You have missed my point entirely. The reason of my asking if
> there is any school teaching Cantonese is to question if written
> Cantonese has been widely accepted. Teaching in writing "colloquial
> Cantonese" is irrelevent in this argument because only a handful have
> ever attended the course and learnt to write. And just for my own
> personal interest, please tell me which Hong Kong university has this
> course.
>
> > There IS NEWSPAPERS writing in Cantonese
>
> Which newspaper? Which magazine? Do specify.
>
>
> > (wait - you says that
> > "Standard Chinese" is can be read as Cantonese? What are we talking
> > here!!?).
>
> Do you deny that most (if not all, as you insist) Hong Kong newspapers
> are written in standard Chinese(baihuawen)? Then what do you call the
> language they uses?
>
> > I do'nt know about these dailys, but it is for sure tabloid
> > newspaper and some teenager and womens magazine which writes
> > completely or largely in the Cantonese colloquial writing.
>
> Take a look at EasyFinder(http://easyfinder.atnext.com/template/ef/front.cfm),
> one of the most read Hong Kong tabloids. Among the six headlines in
> their main page, only one uses Cantonese characters; and if you read
> the articles, all of them are written in baihuawen (if you prefer
> using this term and purposely confusing it with classic Chinese).
>
> > The Minnan Wikipedia has support on Livejournal from Taiwanese user
> > who says they don't read Peh-oe-ji from school instead from readiong
> > Wikipedia just, if ask you get a link to its post.
>
> How many of them are there? Majority of the Taiwanese still cannot read.
>
> And pray do reply my previous summary of my opinions as a whole. So
> far you still chooses to avoid directly answering my central thesis:
> 1)Not even Cantonese native speakers can understand an article
> entirely written in Cantonese written language, if it concerns
> encyclopediac topics; 2)Few people have written in Cantonese;
> 3)Wikipedia should not advocate the use of Cantonese written language.
> Instead we should only allow it when it has already been accepted by
> the society.
>
> You have argued that Cantonese is a written language, using the
> differences between Cantonese and Mandarin as evidence. But as I have
> suggested both Mandarin and Cantonese are just spoken languages, but
> when it comes to writing everyboy today in China, Hong Kong or Macau
> uses the same written language: Baihuawen.
>
> formulax
>


from_name: Christopher Larberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:16:44 -0500, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> Of course.  There are plenty of people here who hold beliefs that many
> other people find abhorrent.
So we should refrain from blocking such accounts even when neo-Nazi
groups have threatened to foist their POV upon Wikipedia?

--Slowking Man


subject:
[Wikitech-l] User controlled suppression of potentially offensive
	content

body:
Hi everyone, recently, in various forums throughout Wikimedia, there
has been much discussion about the appropriateness of certain content
on Wikipedia, particularly sexually and medically explicit photos.

There has been some agreement that, rather than participate in
self-censorship, this problem could be dealt with at a technical level
by allowing downstream users of Wikimedia projects to control for
themselves if such content is removed, hidden (linked) or shown by
default.

Your technical expertise on how this might be implemented is more than
welcome:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:End-user_content_suppression

Cheers,
Christiaan


subject: [WikiEN-l] User:Adam Bishop block

body:
--- Jack Trecartin <jjtrecartin at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> We were working on Wikipedia and received a series
> of strange messages on our talk page from User:Adam
> Bishop. Then, when I (Jack) tried to edit, the
> message below showed up:
>
> Would somebody please explain what is happening as
> the reason for the block makes no sense. Thank you.
>
> User:JillandJackUser is blocked
> >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The return of hard-banned user DW.

RickK

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
--- Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:

> Rick wrote:
>
> >So you think it's appropriate to have a User name
> with
> >88 in it (coded for "Heil Hitler") and to post a
> photo
> >allegedly of themself in a Nazi uniform?
> >
> >
> Of course.  There are plenty of people here who hold
> beliefs that many
> other people find abhorrent.
>
> -Mark

So if I created a Username of [[User:KillAllTheJews]]
it would be accpetable to you?

RickK

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Desysoping

body:
Jack Lutz wrote:

>How is one to call for a sysop have their privileges removed for blocking? RfC, the first step, states that "at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed." I'm not sure my complaint applies. It is that sysop Ta bu shi da yu blocked user NSM88 in violation of the blocking policy. This may be called "resolved" (I'm not sure) because NSM88 has been subsequently unblocked(?). But regardless, I consider TBSDY's actions to be an abuse of the blocking policy and would like to move for his administrator privileges to be removed.
>
>Dispute resolution against sysops is currently very, very slim. It should be easier to lose administrator privileges--and these are privileges--than to gain them. I cannot find any information on the consequences of out-of-policy blocks, and Blocking_policy's coverage of ethics consists only of "users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged in conflict." Does that cover personal attacks or threats? Is a sysop permitted to declare text of a user with whom they are in conflict a threat and summarily block them?
>
With many of the blocks that get endlessly disputed on the mailing list
hasty action by a sysop is more often the problem than the guilt of the
blocked person.  The sysop involved doesn't bother to get the support of
the community before he takes action.  It often ends up that we are
indeed better off without that blocked person.  The blocked user
complains in a seemingly rational letter on the mailling list, and
rallies support for his cause.  Subsequent investigation reveals that
the sysop may have had some reason for his action, but that some vital
links were missing.  If he had paid attention to process the block might
have held without all the aggrevation.

An effective sysop needs to understand how people do things.  He needs
to have patience in dealing with people.  He does not need to become a
part of the problem that he is trying to solve.  He must have attained
some degree of maturity.  Perhaps a prospective sysop should be able to
point to articles where he has participated in helping to diplomatically
resolve a conflict.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Integrating an STV voting system in MediaWiki

body:
I participated in the recent Wikinews logo vote and although I was
generally happy with the outcome I found the process very messy,
borderline and open for improvement.

One way in which voting could be improved on Wikimedia projects would
be to integrate a proportional preference voting system like STV right
into MediaWiki. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote

I've had a quick look around and found that there is at least one
browser-based STV counting software package out there which is
open-source and written in PHP:
http://www.demochoice.org/

It would be interesting to see if we could adapt and integrate it into
MediaWiki. Does anyone have any technical experience with this
software, or know of any other possible options?

Christiaan


from_name: Nicholas Knight

subject:
[WikiEN-l] One reason why Wikipedia is
	not	presently	classroom-safe

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> I have at no time mentioned IE; I mentioned Firefox solely in connection
> with a claim by a Firefox user who didn't think his browser was capable of
> being controlled in the manner that I described.  I could have said

It's NOT. I'm not going to install an extension which will bloat the
browser, might not work at all, and if it does, might not work with the
next version, which will likely have important fixes, just to have a
STILL INADEQUATE version of what can be done IN THE MEDIAWIKI SOFTWARE.


from_name: zero 0000

subject: [WikiEN-l] blocking policy over personal attacks

body:
Teresa wrote:

> You want TBSDY desysopped because he  blocked SS-88 after he said
this:
>
> "You consider the right side of the fence to be on the side of the
> haters. You call us stupid, but you should know that we have a log of
> your hatred and abuse of "power" against one of our comrades. THAT
WAS
> STUPID! Your actions have been documented and have, so far, been
> circulated to thousands of aryans who do not look kindly on your type
> of hatred. You know what happens to people who ignore history......
> 88 !!"
>
> I refer you to the blocking policy:
>
> "Blocks may be imposed in instances where threats have been made or
> actions performed (including actions outside the Wikipedia site)
which
> expose other Wikipedia editors to political, religious or other
> persecution by government, their employer or any others. In such a
> case a ban for a period of time may be applied immediately by any
> sysop upon discovery. "
>
> This looks like a pretty straightforward case to me.

I must be missing something.  How do these (highly offensive) remarks
expose this sysop to "political, religious or other persecution by
government, their employer or any others"?   Unless the sysop lives in
a state with a Nazi government, it is clear to me that there is no
such exposure.

My mail is really about the principles rather than this particular
case.

I think it would be a very bad idea to allow sysops to block people
who insult them, except in the most extreme cases.  The
community will see it as the sysop using their powers to their own
personal benefit, and they will be right.

Zero.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Up to a point.  With cat-based disabling you're at the mercy of
> cat-vandalism (possible solution: the cats in question are permanently

Vandalism is not and _HAS NEVER BEEN_ at issue here.


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> cats).  However it's incorrect to say that disabling images is
> indiscriminate.  It effectively provides the same facility as linking (you
> click on the picture you want to see) with the difference that the picture
> appears alongside the text instead of in a separate window or tab.

http://runawaynet.com/~nknight/dsblimgs.png

Show me where to click.


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Christiaan Briggs said:
>
>>Tony Sidaway wrote:
>>
>>
>>>However it's incorrect to say that disabling images is indiscriminate.
>>
>>It's indiscriminate in that it stops all images from loading. There is
>>no discrimination involved. All images are initially blocked. A
>>site-based system would allow us to discriminate.
>
>
> Not really.  It would place the discrimination in the hands of someone

No, it allows you to CHOOSE what categories you want to automatically
load, and if an image falls in one of the cats you don't want to load,
you're presented with a mechanism to load it right where it should be in
the article.

> else, whereas if we disable image downloads *we* make the decision which
> images we want to see.  It only takes a click.

http://runawaynet.com/~nknight/dsblimgs.png

Show me where to click.


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Christiaan Briggs said:
>
>>A user is not always going to know what is going to offend them until
>>they have looked at the content. By then it's too late.
>
>
> Disabling image downloads (which I do all the time if I browse a site from
> work) enables the user to read the alt tag and/or filename in the context
> of the descriptive content in the article.  With a site like Wikipedia we
> can enforce labeling standards to ensure that nobody gets a nasty surprise
> when they click "load".  It really is the ideal solution.  I've used it
> for years.

http://runawaynet.com/~nknight/dsblimgs.png

Show me where to click.


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> Christiaan Briggs said:
>
>>It's hardly ideal, the user needs to click on every single image before
>> they can see them.
>
>
> Only when you actually have the feature set that way.  If you don't feel
> like it you just go ahead and download the whole lot.
> I like this, because it leaves me as the user in total control.

http://runawaynet.com/~nknight/dsblimgs.png

Show me where to click to download the whole lot.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: http content-type for action=raw

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Jim Higson wrote:
>> I've just noticed that with 1.4 raw text isn't sent compressed.
>
> A quick test confirms that it *is* sent compressed when requested by the
> user agent, just as other page views are. For it to behave otherwise
> would be surprising, since the default LocalSettings.php engages
> compression buffering before the check for the 'action' parameter is made.
>
> You can test this by doing for instance 'telnet en.wikipedia.org 80' and
> pasting in this request:
>
> GET /w/index.php?title=Cornell_Box&action=raw HTTP/1.1
> Host: en.wikipedia.org
> Accept-Encoding: gzip
>
>
> You'll get back some lovely binary garbage. Try it again without the
> Accept-Encoding header, and you see lovely plain text.

My mistake - just seen what my problem is, it was to do with my program not
setting the headers properly, and a bit of weirdness from my browser.
Using telnet is rather a neat demo :)

> If you've got a problem on your own site, check that your PHP
> installation is configured with zlib support and that you haven't
> removed the compression line from your LocalSettings.php.

No problem on my site, but thanks.

Jim


body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:
> All sounds a bit complex for people who, I'm repeatedly told, can't even
> be bothered to learn how to turn image downloads on and off.

I've known how for eight years. That doesn't make it a good solution.


from_name: notafish

subject: [Foundation-l] Day 1 Fund Drive Report

body:
Little international addition to the interesting quotes ;-)

No des pescado: ense?a a pescar. by Alberto Gaona
"Don't give fish, teach how to fish."

Bravo ? cette formidable initiative pour d?mocratiser la connaissance
! by Guillaume Lasnier
"Bravo to this wonderful initiative destined to democratize knowledge!"

Wissen ist die Waffe der Gewaltlosigkeit. by Arnim Faryn
"Knowledge is the weapon of non-violence."

and my favorite ones ;-)

Bon j'irais pas au restau aujourd'hui ;o). by Fabrice Terrasson
"Ok, I won't go to the restaurant today ;o)"

Is there really a 200 character max? really? really? really? really?
really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really?
really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? ok by
anonymous.

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer
<maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in
> UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal and
> MoneyBookers.
>
> PayPal breakdown:
> AUD   314.03 (247.27 USD)
> CAD   334.40 (271.58 USD)
> EUR  3413.75 (4464.75 USD)
> GBP   475.17 (899.77 USD)
> JPY  28340   (269 USD)
> USD   3424.63
> Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent)
>
> Moneybookers:
> $362.69 (USD equivalent)
>
> For the most recent grand total and other details visit
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1
>
> Some selected comments from Day 1:
> See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_1
>
> "Knowledge isn't a possession - it cannot be monopolized." by Robert K Bell
>
> "You guys rock!!" by Anonymous
>
> "Fantastic system - best of luck from a Random Page addict" " by Steve Agland
>
> "Wikipedia is Hope" by Anonymous
>
> "Ignorance breeds fear, use information to gain knowledge and empower yourself
> with Peace" by Anonymous
>
> "Wikipedia is a splendid way of sharing information. Lets do this!" by
> Anonymous
>
> "You guys do a fantastic job!!!" by Guoming Sun
>
> "You have helped me in college and in life. I don't have much money, and I've
> never given a donation. But if any cause is worthy, it is your own. Thank you"
> by Ryan Lewis
>
> "Wikipedia, is there anything it can't do?" by Anonymous
>
> "If you read this note, donate!" by Anonymous
>
> "It's Not Much But Every Individual's Contribution Counts! What The Wiki Is All
> About!" by Anonymous
>
> And my personal favorites:
>
> "For not deleting at least some articles" by Vladimir Mozhenkov
>
> "Wikipedia: Destroyer of productivity; love of my life." by Anonymous
>
> "bonk" by Anonymous
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Day 1 Fund Drive Report


subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
Zoney wrote:
> There are views which are unacceptable in civilised society.

There are actions which are unacceptable in civilised society. Any
society that holds a given view/opinion to be unacceptable is not civilised.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Desysoping

body:
Charles Matthews wrote:

>Jack Lutz wrote
>
>
>>Dispute resolution against sysops is currently very, very slim. It should
>>
>>
>be easier to lose administrator privileges--and these are privileges--than
>to gain them.
>
>Shouldn't that be resolution of disputes _with_ sysops?  AFAIK we are all
>still on the same side.
>
> If I can rephrase the second sentence, you think that admins should be
>deprived of their status by some process than is simpler than their
>election - which is a community vote by logged-in folk.  Well, taking them
>off the list is easy enough.  It should happen, occasionally, I agree.  It
>should probably happen to any admin who no longer is generally trusted by
>the community.  How is one supposed to judge that, other than another poll?
>If the problem is egregious abuse of powers, that is another question, I
>think.
>
There should be more to becoming a sysop than a vote.  The same can be
said for the de-sysopping process.  The poll can be give a sense of the
community, but it may be of only that part of the community which is
keenly interested in such matters, and that carries the risk that some
group of users with a specific POV can highjack the process.

A bureaucrat should be able to occasionally act against the clear will
of the community.  But if he does so he better have a good reason, and
be prepared to defend that position.

Ec


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] End-user content suppression, was End-user censorship

body:
As you might have noticed I've changed the page name to minimise
controversy of the word "censorship":
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/End-user_content_suppression

Christiaan

Christiaan Briggs wrote:

> I started a page where we can discuss the implementation of end-user
> censorship (i.e. the suppression of potentially offensive content):
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/End-user_censorship
>
> Christiaan


from_name: eG

body:
Anthere wrote:
 > cookfire a ?crit:
 >
 >> When reading the eG's message, I was also wondering what is so special
 >> about Japanese copyright law that it makes building up a free dictionary
 >> harder than in other languages. I must say that I do understand the
 >> problem with vandalism. Since the summer the English Wiktionary gets a
 >> lot of vandalism and spamvertising too. The months before that the
 >> problem was far less. The French, Dutch and Spanish Wiktionaries are
 >> relatively calm as far as vandalism is concerned, but maybe the Japanese
 >> Wiktionary attracts Chinese spammers as well. What I see as a solution
 >> is to create a broad base of sysops, so obvious vandalism and
 >> spamvertising can be killed on the spot (and thus only wastes the time
 >> of one person). Of course the trick is to find dependable people who are
 >> able and want to consacrate a lot of time to the project. It takes a bit
 >> of time for them to show up, but they do exist.
 >>
 >> Good luck,
 >>
 >> Polyglot
 >
 >
 > It is true having much more sysops would help, but if a few people only
 > come to the place, it will not change anything
 >
 > A solution might rather be the possibility for combined recent changes
 >
 > Ant

Anthere, as I wrote, I have been trying to recruit contributors among
Japanese community. I believe this is the best solution and also I
believe I can accomplish this under the current condition. I don't throw
out my hope yet. I try my best. Please give us time.

Best,

eG
__________________________________
Let's Celebrate Together!
Yahoo! JAPAN
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/so2005/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Nicholas Knight

body:
Denni wrote:
> Nicholas Knight wrote:
>
> "There are actions which are unacceptable in civilised society. Any
> society that holds a given view/opinion to be unacceptable is not civilised."
>
> Really. If I presented as my view that women are best presented with their legs
> spread, and children should be seen and not heard, a civilized society should
> accept my statement? Hmmm. ~~~~

It should accept that you have a right to hold it and that you have a
right to air it. That does not mean the society has to accept it being
imposed.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Nicholas Knight

body:
Nicholas Knight wrote:
> Denni wrote:
>
>> Nicholas Knight wrote:
>>
>> "There are actions which are unacceptable in civilised society. Any
>> society that holds a given view/opinion to be unacceptable is not
>> civilised."
>>
>> Really. If I presented as my view that women are best presented with
>> their legs
>> spread, and children should be seen and not heard, a civilized society
>> should
>> accept my statement? Hmmm. ~~~~
>
>
> It should accept that you have a right to hold it and that you have a
> right to air it. That does not mean the society has to accept it being
> imposed.

More to the point, there's a difference between accepting something and
endorsing it. My acceptance that some people are gay and that they have
the same rights any heterosexual does not mean I endorse or encourage
homosexuality.


from_name: Sheng Jiong

body:
>  That I don't know enough about to comment
> on, but it would help if anybody had any information on just how common
> this writing system is in Hong Kong, and how many people would be
> interested in writing on such a Wikipedia.

As far as I know, there is no newspaper written entirely in Cantonese
in Hong Kong or anywhere in the world. There are some tabloids which
choose to include some Cantonese characters in some of their
sensational headlines, but no one, as even the proponents of a
Cantonese Wikipedia acknowlege (except Mark, who insist there is, but
"do'nt know about these dailys") so.

All serious newspapers in Hong Kong write in Chinese that can be
universally understood by everybody who knows Chinese.

Extrememly few Hong Kongers have ever come across with materials that
are entirely written in Cantonese written language, if there is ever
such a thing.

No guidelines have been introduced or widely accepted by the general
public on writing in Cantonese language.

All Hong Kong students(except those who choose to learn English as
their first language) learn to write in the standard Chinese in
schools.

formulax


from_name: Denni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia is not carte blanche