from_name: Jean-Baptiste Soufron

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Duplicate article

body:
I you really despise them and if they're reluctant to your proposals,
you can ask them to come on IRC where I will be happy to welcome them
for a very nice troll-party that will cost them hundred of hours of
productivity...

> You can't forget to accuse them of plagiarism of your most recent
> best-selling novel, and threaten to sue.
>
> It also helps to send them a Wikipedia e-mail (or a few, or several
> hundred) reminding them what's wrong with them, exactly how stupid
> they are (be sure to use similes and comparisons, they make for more
> captivating e-mails; also don't forget the mandatory "if I had a
> dollar for every brain you didn't have, I'd have one dollar"), how you
> have engaged in sexual relations with their mother/sister/girlfriend
> (be sure to describe these encounters in great detail - it will keep
> the reader focused on the topic at hand), how many different ways you
> are going to cause bodily harm to them and/or their loved ones (be
> very graphic - it helps to drive your point home), remind them how
> small their manhood is (again, use similes and comparisons... and when
> they tell you they're a woman, say "my point exactly!"), rinse, and
> repeat.
>
> Mark
>
> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:59:28 -0500, Evan Prodromou
> <evan at wikitravel.org> wrote:
>> On Sun, 2005-27-02 at 08:56 -0800, Adam Hunt wrote:
>>
>>> What is the policy on duplicate articles?  "U.S. customary units" and
>>> "Imperial unit" both cover the same topic.
>>
>> Official policy is that you should look at the history of the article
>> with the title you least prefer to find the person  who did the
>> smallest
>> possible change (I like "it's" to "its" changes, myself). Then, you
>> write an ALL-CAPS HATE LETTER to them on their User talk: page,
>> cursing
>> them vehemently for "vandalizing" Wikipedia and violating the NPOV
>> rule.
>> If you can, threaten to have their ISP account deactivated and/or
>> physical violence. Mention of Nazis or Hitler is a finesse touch but
>> not
>> required. Finally, look at their user contributions to find other
>> articles the user's worked on, and blank them.
>>
>> An alternate approach is to merge the two articles and make one a
>> redirect to the other. But what fun is that?
>>
>> ~Evan
>>
>> --
>> Evan Prodromou <evan at wikitravel.org>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

Jean-Baptiste Soufron, Doctorant
CERSA - CNRS, Paris 2
http://soufron.free.fr


list: foundation-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations

body:
> From: Dean Rivando <deanrivando (at) yahoo . ca>
>
> Hi there,
>
> I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax
> credit in
>  Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable
> status with the
>  Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in
> Canada are
>  tax deductible.

Dean, give less. Use the difference to pay the tax. Tax in your
country is useful to help pay for infrastructure, defense, and
healthcare.

Say you wanted to give CAN$50. Give 40, use the other 10 to pay for
the tax. For you it's the same (still spending 50) and for wikipedia
it's better (40 instead of 0) :)

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


list: wikimedia-l


list: wikien-l

from_name: Arno M

body:
I don't know if it is the same as this one, but you can read this without
a subscription:

http://www.thetyee.ca/MediaCheck/current/JourFutureWikipedia.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Article on Wikipedia in the Saturday National Post
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:12:34 -0500

>
> There was a pretty complimentary article published about Wikipedia
> in the Saturday National Post (a national Canadian newspaper).
> Unfortunately, you need a subscription to see the whole article
> online:
>
> http://www.canada.com/search/story.html?id=df1fbe7e-c310-47c8-98af-ddd72928bc85
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

--
_______________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


body:
Silly me! No , the article below is dated October, 2004 and would not be the same as the
one Jay mentioned.

However, its - the Forum at the end - and the still worth a read for those who have
not seen it.

Arno

=============

I don't know if it is the same as this one, but you can read this without
a subscription:

http://www.thetyee.ca/MediaCheck/current/JourFutureWikipedia.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Article on Wikipedia in the Saturday National Post
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:12:34 -0500

>
> There was a pretty complimentary article published about Wikipedia
> in the Saturday National Post (a national Canadian newspaper).
> Unfortunately, you need a subscription to see the whole article
> online:
>
> http://www.canada.com/search/story.html?id=df1fbe7e-c310-47c8-98af-ddd72928bc85
>
> Jay.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

--
_______________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jim Higson

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Testing if a page exists

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>> Jim Higson wrote:
>>> I've tried doing a HEAD request to the page url with &action=raw, but
>>> that returns 200 regardless if the page exists (bug or feature?).
>>
>> You get a 200 because the wiki script exists, and hasn't yet been
>> special cased to return a 404 response for pages which don't exist.
>
> Just hacked this into HEAD branch:
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-cvs/2005-February/006720.html
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Thanks very much - when this filters down I'll be able to remove my current
super-hacky page detection.

--
Jim


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] de.wikipedia.org db dump

body:
Sebastian Harl wrote:
> I was just wondering why there is no individual de.wikipedia.org
> database dump at http://download.wikimedia.org/?

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-February/027602.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: csherlock at ljh.com.au

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: POV forks, and "the 32K devil made me do it"

body:
Pete/Pcb21 wrote:
> Christiaan Briggs wrote:
>
>> Pete/Pcb21 wrote:
>>
>>> If people agree that the warning is too prominent, remember it can be
>>> edited at
>>>
>>> [[MediaWiki:Longpagewarning]]
>>
>>
>>
>> But it's protected.
>>
>> Christiaan
>
>
> I have a vague recollection that there was some good reason why
> MediaWiki: pages got protected en masse when the Template: namespace was
> introduced. If there is, then I will be willing to serve as the
> community's servant and change it to whatever they see fit as spelt out
> on the talk page. If not, I will unprotect it and put it on my watchlist.
>
> Pete

No need, I've updated that page. Post a message to my talk page if you
want some more corrections done and I'll see about incorporating them.
I'd prefer that page to remain locked as it's such a vital part of
Wikipedia. It SHOULD remain relatively static.

TBSDY


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: article length: =<32Kb?

body:
If you mean just be able to edit the lead section: you can. Edit the
page and then add section=0 onto the end of the edit page URL.

TBSDY

Fred Bauder wrote:
> It is the section editing that ended the technical need to limit an article
> to 32K using Internet Explorer. Now unless it is the first section you need
> to edit you don't need to edit the whole article or change browsers. I have
> no idea why you can't edit the first section. Ability to do that should be
> added.
>
> Fred


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: article length: =<32Kb?

body:
Stan Shebs wrote:
> Yes, the 32K limit should still be encouraged. Not only is there
> still the risk of old browsers mangling long articles, but this
> is the encyclopedia, not wikibooks. People delighting in long
> articles should consider that 99% of readers will drop off long
> before they get to the end of a 5,000-word article, so it's as
> if the material at the end doesn't even exist; better to make
> several shorter articles interlinked so readers can steer to the
> desired details more quickly.
>
> Stan

Stan, those readers will probably drop off after 32KB anyway. Best to
fixup the lead section and let them read that.

TBSDY


from_name: Sebastian Harl

subject: [Wikipedia-l] de.wikipedia.org db dump

body:
Hi,

I was just wondering why there is no individual de.wikipedia.org
database dump at http://download.wikimedia.org/?

Cheers,
Sebastian

PS: Please CC me in replies as I'm not on the list. Thanks!


from_name: Viajero

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: article length: =<32Kb?

body:
Stan Shebs wrote:

 > Yes, the 32K limit should still be encouraged. Not only is there
 > still the risk of old browsers mangling long articles, but this
 > is the encyclopedia, not wikibooks.

Hi again all,

I read with interest the various remarks of Stan, Mav, and others in
support of keeping articles from getting too long, because it mirrors my
own instincts. [[Wikipedia:Summary_style]] is a very useful page.

A quick look at the hefty [[George W. Bush]] (72Kb) suggests that some
of the material might indeed be profitably spun off into ancillary
articles, along the lines of what Mav described with Reagan (some
already has), such as those lists legislation or that list of transcripts...

By the look of it, the Berlusconi article (now around 50Kb) is also
getting unwieldy and needs some reorganization. It now has a very long,
very dense, very heavily referenced section on his legal problems,
including a complete list of court cases, the whole of which seems
reader-unfriendly. However, efforts on my part spin some of this
material off was met with stiff resistance by a user named Mattamamanos,
apparently Italian, who has edited approx. 20 times in EN, all of them
in this article, and who has gotten quite possessive about it. He says
these legal matters are very important, and I can believe it, but
disagrees quite pointedly that any of the material should be spun off.
He may know a vast amount about Berlusconi but perhaps he is unable to
see the forest for the trees.

Taking heed of dbpsmith's comment the other day about letting the text
"stew and mellow" and reach a stable state, it might be too early to
consider refactoring Berlusconi. That being said, surely it must be
possible to draw on strategies developed for long articles on other
heads of state, ie Reagan?

As a closing aside, I recall a few years ago, during the year or two
period when all its material was freely available, printing out the
Encyclopedia Britannica article on the history of Spain. It was more
than 95 (!) pages long (>250Kb?); covered prehistorical period to late
20C. I can see how such a format might be appropriate in that kind of
environment, where one author/editor has final responsibility for the
text and can create an organic, static whole. But imagine trying to
maintain a 250Kb article on Wikipedia -- it would be nightmare.

V.


from_name: Philipp

subject: [Wikitech-l] Length of searchwords

body:
> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/fulltext-fine-tuning.html
>
> If you are using MySQL 3.x, you may also have to tweak $wgDBminWordLen
> and the copy of the stopword list in FulltextStoplist.php.

Thanks, that helped, it's working now.

Regards
 Philipp


from_name: Felix Wan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for classical Chinese

body:
On Mon, February 28, 2005 3:03 pm, David Gerard said:
>
> So would this be created before or after a Cantonese wikipedia?
>
I hope that Classical Chinese Wikipedia is more accepted, and I don't
mind if it is created before the Cantonese Wikipedia.  I hope that we
can consider the merits of a Classical Chinese Wikipedia seperately,
unaffected by the emotion surrounding Chinese regional speeches.

On Mon, February 28, 2005 2:12 am, abc_root said:
>
> I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or
> kanbun( ??????/?????????) which is the standard form of Chinese for
> about two thousand years and was used throughout East Asia as the
> formal form of writing. Its importance in East Asia is like that of
> Latin in Europe. Now that Wikipedias are running or being started
> for many of the languages in East Asia, it seems that the language
> which is the backbone of these languages should also have a place.
>
I find that an interesting idea and will support it.  I am just not
sure how many people are fluent enough in Classical Chinese to
maintain the site.

> One problem that might be encountered in writing articles for kanbun
> wikipedia is how the foreign loanwords (e.g. from English) should be
> phonetically transcribed when there is no corresponding word in kanbun
> itself. If they are transcribed using kanji (Chinese characters), there
> is the question of which language should be used to read the kanji.
> Here I suggest using an alphabet system of East Asia (e.g. Japanese
> kana or Korean hangul, or Taiwanese chu-yin) for the transcription and
> also note the original word in English (or any other language of origin
> or the roman transcription if the language is not written in roman
> alphabet). This allows kanbun users speaking different languages to
> know the original foreign word.
>
I have different ideas for loanwords.  If the loanword is a proper noun,
and do not have a historical transcription, we could be better off to
leave it in its original form. (or roman transcription?)

If the loanword is a common noun that has a meaning, the way Classical
Chinese should work is to coin a word that expresses its meaning.
Japanese speakers did a good job in coining "keisai" for economics and
"denwa" for telephone, and those terms were well accepted by Chinese
speakers.  However, newer terms are usually phonetically transliterated
in katakana, which in my opinion is a little bit lazy.  Many translations
in modern Chinese follow that same principle of Classical Chinese.  We
may pick from those that convey the meaning, not just the sound.

Felix Wan


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
FWIW, fur.wikipedia has some of the same problems.

Oh, and many thanks to Brion for creating os.wikipedia last night!

Mark

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:44:24 +0000, Rowan Collins
<rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think most or all of the issues mentionned below are just
> configuration matters. I'm forwarding this to the Wikitech-l list to
> make sure people see it who will be able to both diagnose and fix the
> problems.
> --
> Rowan Collins BSc
> [IMSoP]
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:06:10 +0300
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic wiki is on. Help about bugs
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
>
> Dear friends,
>
> Thank you all for your support. Today, the last day of February, the
> Ossetic Wikipedia has been started. See it at http://os.wikipedia.org/
> -- it's already very beautiful :)
>
> Several things that disturb me about it:
>
> * Interwiki links to os:articles do not work. The interwiki links from
> other language Wikipedias to the Ossetic one do not appear as
> interwikies, but as a part of the article text. See, e. g.,
> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/??????????? The same thing is about the
> Chuvash (cv) Wikipedia, which is not really new. What's the reason and
> how can it be fixed?
>
> * The {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} thing does not work on the Main Page (shows
> -1), I had to change it manually to "26", or it would be too
> ridiculous to start advertising it. :)
>
> * Usual links to Wikimedia other projects (according to .:Ajvol:. who
> helped me about the Main Page design) does not work correctly. He had
> to use full URLs.
>
> Grateful beforehand,
> Slavik IVANOV (Amikeco)
>
> --
> Esperu cxiam!
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic wiki is on. Help about bugs


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic wiki is on. Help about bugs


body:
I have an idea: Let's just make a zh-whatever: for all the different
things relating to Chinese that people want. They can mix Cantonese
with Wu with Mandarin, some romanized, some using characters, they can
add classical  chinese, even jiaguwenzi (tortoise shell ancient
characters), as well as zhuyin fuhao, and dungan (ie sichuan mandarin
writtne in cyrillic basically), and we can also mix in English and
Russian and Portuguese and Korean.

So what do you think?

Mark

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:03:08 +0000, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> abc_root wrote:
>
> > I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or kanbun(
> > ??/???) which is the standard form of Chinese for about two thousand
> > years and was used throughout East Asia as the formal form of writing. Its
> > importance in East Asia is like that of Latin in Europe. Now that
> > Wikipedias are running or being started for many of the languages in East
> > Asia, it seems that the language which is the backbone of these languages
> > should also have a place.
>
> So would this be created before or after a Cantonese wikipedia?
>
>
> - d.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


body:
In addition there was the old practice in Japanese of writing a
neologism descriptively in Chinese characters, and writing the
pronunciation (usually from English or French) right above it.

This was done with "denwa", which is interesting because people often
just read it as "denwa" instead of reading the phonetic guide
"terehon", whereas in other cases people always stuck to the phonetic
reading so now there are sets of kanji for new words which do not fit
with their readings. (however, this has fallen out of favor so people
usually use katakana for such loanwords instead)

Mark

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:16:04 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
<felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> On Mon, February 28, 2005 3:03 pm, David Gerard said:
> >
> > So would this be created before or after a Cantonese wikipedia?
> >
> I hope that Classical Chinese Wikipedia is more accepted, and I don't
> mind if it is created before the Cantonese Wikipedia.  I hope that we
> can consider the merits of a Classical Chinese Wikipedia seperately,
> unaffected by the emotion surrounding Chinese regional speeches.
>
>
> On Mon, February 28, 2005 2:12 am, abc_root said:
> >
> > I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or
> > kanbun( ??????/?????????) which is the standard form of Chinese for
> > about two thousand years and was used throughout East Asia as the
> > formal form of writing. Its importance in East Asia is like that of
> > Latin in Europe. Now that Wikipedias are running or being started
> > for many of the languages in East Asia, it seems that the language
> > which is the backbone of these languages should also have a place.
> >
> I find that an interesting idea and will support it.  I am just not
> sure how many people are fluent enough in Classical Chinese to
> maintain the site.
>
> > One problem that might be encountered in writing articles for kanbun
> > wikipedia is how the foreign loanwords (e.g. from English) should be
> > phonetically transcribed when there is no corresponding word in kanbun
> > itself. If they are transcribed using kanji (Chinese characters), there
> > is the question of which language should be used to read the kanji.
> > Here I suggest using an alphabet system of East Asia (e.g. Japanese
> > kana or Korean hangul, or Taiwanese chu-yin) for the transcription and
> > also note the original word in English (or any other language of origin
> > or the roman transcription if the language is not written in roman
> > alphabet). This allows kanbun users speaking different languages to
> > know the original foreign word.
> >
> I have different ideas for loanwords.  If the loanword is a proper noun,
> and do not have a historical transcription, we could be better off to
> leave it in its original form. (or roman transcription?)
>
> If the loanword is a common noun that has a meaning, the way Classical
> Chinese should work is to coin a word that expresses its meaning.
> Japanese speakers did a good job in coining "keisai" for economics and
> "denwa" for telephone, and those terms were well accepted by Chinese
> speakers.  However, newer terms are usually phonetically transliterated
> in katakana, which in my opinion is a little bit lazy.  Many translations
> in modern Chinese follow that same principle of Classical Chinese.  We
> may pick from those that convey the meaning, not just the sound.
>
> Felix Wan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Article on Wikipedia in the Saturday National Post

body:
I noticed that there is a link to the following interesting proxy:

http://www.whitelabel.org/wp/wikiproxy.php

Seems pretty cool! Embeds Wikipedia links into BBC articles!

TBSDY

Arno M wrote:
> I don't know if it is the same as this one, but you can read this without
> a subscription:
>
> http://www.thetyee.ca/MediaCheck/current/JourFutureWikipedia.htm
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Article on Wikipedia in the Saturday National Post
> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:12:34 -0500
>
>
>>There was a pretty complimentary article published about Wikipedia
>>in the Saturday National Post (a national Canadian newspaper).
>>Unfortunately, you need a subscription to see the whole article
>>online:
>>
>>http://www.canada.com/search/story.html?id=df1fbe7e-c310-47c8-98af-ddd72928bc85
>>
>>Jay.
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


from_name: Tels

subject: [Wikitech-l] Length of searchwords

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Moin,

On Monday 28 February 2005 16:07, Philipp wrote:
> > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/fulltext-fine-tuning.html
> >
> > If you are using MySQL 3.x, you may also have to tweak
> > $wgDBminWordLen and the copy of the stopword list in
> > FulltextStoplist.php.
>
> Thanks, that helped, it's working now.

Just want to add that I stumbled over the same problem at work and will do
the same fix tomorrow - TLA's are certainly important in IT :)

Thanx!

Best wishes,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Mon Feb 28 18:33:32 2005 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "What is fair use? Fair use is not a law. There's nothing in law. Right
 now, any professor can show a complete movie in his classroom without
 paying a dime - that's fair use. What is not fair use is making a copy
 of an encrypted DVD, because once you're able to break the encryption,
 you've undermined the encryption itself." - Jack Valenti

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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

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subject: [Wikitech-l] deletion of images

body:
Anthere wrote:
> Why is deletion of images permanent ?

Because it's more complicated to store them in a restricted-access
deletion queue, and no such queue has been implemented yet.

> Is there a good reason it is so while articles may be restored ?

Article undeletion was a much higher priority, and also essentially
easier to do (as it doesn't require moving and hiding actual files,
merely shuffling data between tables). Therefore it was implemented much
earlier.

> Is there a solution other than retrieving lost images on our mirrors ?

We have complete backups of the image upload directories, and can
restore files from backup if they are not available elsewhere.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Question about edit links at top of Wikipedia pages

body:
Could we have an "Edit lead section" link up the top? Is it possible to
edit some mediawiki template to make this happen? Personally, I know
that sometimes I need to make the lead section much better, and if I
have a very long article then it just takes forever to update the article!

Can it be done?

TBSDY


body:
Dear all:

I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or kanbun(
??/???) which is the standard form of Chinese for about two thousand
years and was used throughout East Asia as the formal form of writing. Its
importance in East Asia is like that of Latin in Europe. Now that
Wikipedias are running or being started for many of the languages in East
Asia, it seems that the language which is the backbone of these languages
should also have a place.

One problem that might be encountered in writing articles for kanbun
wikipedia is how the foreign loanwords (e.g. from English) should be
phonetically transcribed when there is no corresponding word in kanbun
itself. If they are transcribed using kanji (Chinese characters), there is
the question of which language should be used to read the kanji. Here I
suggest using an alphabet system of East Asia (e.g. Japanese kana or Korean
hangul, or Taiwanese chu-yin) for the transcription and also note the
original word in English (or any other language of origin or the roman
transcription if the language is not written in roman alphabet). This
allows kanbun users speaking different languages to know the original
foreign word.

__________________________________
Let's Celebrate Together!
Yahoo! JAPAN
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/so2005/


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: "The 32K limit made me do it"

body:
Obviously it depends on the article -- some split well, others would
not, and the *size of the split pieces* would matter as well. For
example, there's no easy way to split "Albert Einstein" (45K) anymore
than it is, as none of the split parts would themselves warrant an
article on their own. If you split it up, you'd get a very ugly
outline which led to articles each one or two paragraphs long. You
could cut it down, but I don't see any benefit in that: we don't need
to pretend that everybody is going to *want* to read an entire article
from start to finish. I'm sure there are many people who don't care
about Einstein's political or religious views, and many who don't
really care about the science, but by keeping the text there and well
organized, we can let the user skip to their tastes.

There are many summary style articles which are far longer than 32K --
it is not the length that makes them usable or un-usable, it is
whether they have a good article structure, with good headings, so you
can easily see what parts you are interested in and which you are not.

With that in mind, I think the 32K warning should be pretty soft.
Articles should be split up or cut down as a factor of their overall
content, which cannot be measured by an arbitrary number of kilobytes.
I'm not too worried about people with out of date browsers, I must
admit. I wonder how well they fare with the CSS Wikipedia, anyway.

My non-confrontational recommendation:

"Note: This page is 38 kilobytes long. If appropriate, you may want to
consider splitting it into a series of shorter articles or editing it
to be more concise (see [[Wikipedia:Article size]] for more
information)."

I of course say this as somebody who struggles against his natural
verbosity, but we all have our biases.

FF

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:19:27 +0000, Zoney <zoney.ie at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:57:53 +0000, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:
> >
> > > I've Been Bold and rewritten the message. It now reads:
> > > "Note: This page is 38 kilobytes long. Under current  article size
> > > guidelines, articles that exceed 32KB are considered to be too long. It
> > > may be appropriate to restructure this topic into a related series of
> > > shorter articles, or split off a section of it as a separate article.
> > > However, these are major structural changes which should not be made
> > > hastily, and should be made by consensus agreement among editors of the
> > > page. See the guidelines for details."
> >
> > I'd like it made harsher: see below.
> >
> >
> > >> So what are the generally accepted criteria for length of articles in
> > >> encyclopedias?
> >
> > > People should be getting tired of my stock answer to this, which is that
> > > the Eleventh Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica contains articles
> > > which exceed one megabyte in size. I need to get to the library and see
> > > what size the juicier articles in the Britannica 3 Macropaedia are.
> >
> > A vastly important consideration is that text is remarkably harder to
> > read on a screen than on paper. The 32K article that's a lot of work to
> > read on screen is a lot easier to read on a printout - but almost no-one
> > (comparatively) will be reading a printout. 32K is when your eyes fall off
> > the screen, if not well before.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
>
> So? We don't necessarily intend for people to read all the way through
> an article on a country that is hundreds of years old for example.
> People will skip to particular sections. If someone does want to read
> through an entire long article, printing it out is probably the most
> likely option!
>
> 32K is far too restrictive for major parent articles - no matter the
> number of sub articles. Even just including an adequate summary for
> each sub-topic results in quite a large article - summarising history
> of a country alone is a massive task, nevermind adding short sections
> on culture (sports, literature, food+drink, lifestyle), geography,
> economy, government (!!!). No... any country article below 32K is very
> likely to not adequately cover the swathe of articles that accompany
> it.
>
> Zoney
>
> --
> ~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Two small recommendations

body:
I'm not sure where the most effective place to post recommendations
is, but here are two I have:

1. If you currently click the "Search" or "Go" button without typing
in a query, you get an ugly MySQL error. It ought to dump you into a
generic "Search" page or something like that. I can see no advantage
in giving the user a "badly formed search query" error. Surely this
can't be too hard to change?

2. If you put in a Wiki URL without the /wiki/ you get an ugly Error
404 and then a 5 sec. redirect. (i.e.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Albert_Einstein ->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein). Why? I see no reason
why it shouldn't just automatically redirect, unless there is some
tangible benefit for telling people that they left out the "wiki"
(when it doesn't seem to affect anything). Is there anything else they
could have possibly meant when typing in that query? Why chastise them
if we can fairly guess their intention?

FF


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Spam

body:
Yann Forget a ?crit:
> Hi Anthere,

Hiya Yann

> Le Monday 28 February 2005 01:34, Anthere a ?crit :
>
>>Yann, an email was opened on otrs to deal with emails of requests from
>>non editors.
>>
>>If I remember well, this address is info-fr at wikimedia.org
>>
>>This is possibly the email address which should be better advertised on
>>the french speaking projects.
>
>
> 1. This has nothing to do with the current subject.

I think it does. The main problem with spam is that it hides real
messages, and we sometimes fail to answer those. If real people are
redirected visibly to another list, there is chance we limit real
messages loss or at least messages pending, and even possibly spam if
our internal mailing list is less advertised.

> Or better, we CAN'T start to advertise such an address before setting up a
> spamfilter.

Hum ?
We can't ?
I regularly manage the OTRS address board at wikimedia.org

I just move spam in the spam queue. This is very quick to do.

> 2. I still don't know how OTRS works, and was not able to find any help.
> Anybody knows ?

notafish should know now :-) We spent two hours exploring it together :-)

> So once a spamfilter is set up and there are sufficient people registered to
> OTRS and knowing how to use it, we can advertise such an address.

Sorry to discover we lost our time setting up this address. It was meant
to be used. If you do not advertise it, and do not even want to talk
publicly about it on wiki, I guess we won't use it before a long time.

Germans have been using it for a long time now. I think they are happy
with it.

At least, I can say it was a huge relief for Jimbo Angela and I when we
set the board account :-)

>>I recommand that any big projects with high spam amount and requests
>>from non registered people begin to think of using otrs and a special
>>information list as well.
>>
>>Anthere
>
>
> Yann
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] deletion of images

body:
Why is deletion of images permanent ?
Is there a good reason it is so while articles may be restored ?

While images deletion is permanent, it really tips the balance in favor
of deletionists, I do not think it is fair. If there is no possibility
to retrieve a deleted pictures, deletion should possibly not be as easy
than just clicking on delete.

Is there a solution other than retrieving lost images on our mirrors ?

Anthere


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
We met and then well-exceded the goal to raise $75,000 (USD) in this quarter's
fund drive. See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 for
details (still waiting for final numbers in every source category so final
grand total will be higher).

I consider 11:59 PM Monday 28 February 2005 (eastern US timezone since PayPal
data are not available in UTC) as the official end of our fund drive for
accounting purposes. As of right now though, all fund drive notes should be
replaced by congratulatory messages that can be left until midnight on Thursday
(UTC). After that, [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] should be blanked until the next
fund drive.

For reference, here is the message displayed on the English Wikipedia:

You did it! Thanks to your generosity we exceeded our fund drive goal by 15%.
([[wikimedia:Fund drives/2005/Q1|details]])

Show your pride in Wikipedia by purchasing merchandise through
[http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia our Cafe Press shop].

My regular home computer will not boot for some unknown reason, so I will not
be able to run the Day 10 (Sunday) report at this time. Day 11 (Monday) will be
the final report for this fund drive.

Daniel Mayer,
Wikimedia CFO

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] deletion of images

body:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:38:22 +0100, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why is deletion of images permanent ?
> Is there a good reason it is so while articles may be restored ?
>
> While images deletion is permanent, it really tips the balance in favor
> of deletionists, I do not think it is fair. If there is no possibility
> to retrieve a deleted pictures, deletion should possibly not be as easy
> than just clicking on delete.
>
> Is there a solution other than retrieving lost images on our mirrors ?
>

If the image has been there long enough to get into the upload dumps
you can retrive it there, e.g. all the images which have been deleted
since 2005-02-03 but existed before that time are in the
20050203_upload.tar dump avalible at
http://download.wikimedia.org/archives/en/

> Anthere
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] deletion of images

body:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:38:22 +0100, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why is deletion of images permanent ?
> Is there a good reason it is so while articles may be restored ?

My guess is that this is to save space - images, and old versions of
images, could end up taking up a lot of space if everything was there
forever. But you could be right that either it should be made harder
to delete one, or some opportunity for undeletion retained - perhaps
the files could be kept for a certain amount of time, and periodically
purged?

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic wiki is on. Help about bugs

body:
I think most or all of the issues mentionned below are just
configuration matters. I'm forwarding this to the Wikitech-l list to
make sure people see it who will be able to both diagnose and fix the
problems.
--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:06:10 +0300
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic wiki is on. Help about bugs
To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org

Dear friends,

Thank you all for your support. Today, the last day of February, the
Ossetic Wikipedia has been started. See it at http://os.wikipedia.org/
-- it's already very beautiful :)

Several things that disturb me about it:

* Interwiki links to os:articles do not work. The interwiki links from
other language Wikipedias to the Ossetic one do not appear as
interwikies, but as a part of the article text. See, e. g.,
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/??????????? The same thing is about the
Chuvash (cv) Wikipedia, which is not really new. What's the reason and
how can it be fixed?

* The {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} thing does not work on the Main Page (shows
-1), I had to change it manually to "26", or it would be too
ridiculous to start advertising it. :)

* Usual links to Wikimedia other projects (according to .:Ajvol:. who
helped me about the Main Page design) does not work correctly. He had
to use full URLs.

Grateful beforehand,
Slavik IVANOV (Amikeco)

--
Esperu cxiam!
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic wiki is on. Help about bugs


from_name: V. Ivanov

body:
Dear friends,

Thank you all for your support. Today, the last day of February, the
Ossetic Wikipedia has been started. See it at http://os.wikipedia.org/
-- it's already very beautiful :)

Several things that disturb me about it:

* Interwiki links to os:articles do not work. The interwiki links from
other language Wikipedias to the Ossetic one do not appear as
interwikies, but as a part of the article text. See, e. g.,
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/??????????? The same thing is about the
Chuvash (cv) Wikipedia, which is not really new. What's the reason and
how can it be fixed?

* The {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} thing does not work on the Main Page (shows
-1), I had to change it manually to "26", or it would be too
ridiculous to start advertising it. :)

* Usual links to Wikimedia other projects (according to .:Ajvol:. who
helped me about the Main Page design) does not work correctly. He had
to use full URLs.

Grateful beforehand,
Slavik IVANOV (Amikeco)

--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [Wikitech-l] Error when attempting to view edit history

body:
I'm trying to look through the history of [[Noam Chomsky]] but I can't
seem to get past a certain point.  If I click "500" or "250" or "100"
or if I click on "next 50" more than three times I get the following
message:

Warning: mysql_query(): Unable to save result set in
/usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.4/includes/Database.php on line
324
  Unable to free MySQL result

  Backtrace:
	? 	Database.php line 469 calls wfdebugdiebacktrace()
	? 	User.php line 455 calls databasemysql::freeresult()
	? 	SkinTemplate.php line 254 calls user::getnewtalk()
	? 	OutputPage.php line 417 calls skinmonobook::outputpage()
	? 	OutputPage.php line 614 calls outputpage::output()
	? 	Database.php line 360 calls outputpage::databaseerror()
	? 	Database.php line 309 calls databasemysql::reportqueryerror()
	? 	PageHistory.php line 73 calls databasemysql::query()
	? 	index.php line 187 calls pagehistory::history()

?Christiaan

P.S. is this the correct place to post a problem like this?


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
Christiaan Briggs said:
> I'm trying to look through the history of [[Noam Chomsky]] but I can't
> seem to get past a certain point.  If I click "500" or "250" or "100"
> or if I click on "next 50" more than three times I get the following
> message:
>
> Warning: mysql_query(): Unable to save result set in
> /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.4/includes/Database.php on line
> 324
>  Unable to free MySQL result

[etc]

I get this kind of error all the time.  It works eventually if you keep
reloading.
Eventually I got to the first version, in November 2001:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Noam_Chomsky&oldid=270313


from_name: David Gerard

body:
dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:

> I've Been Bold and rewritten the message. It now reads:
> "Note: This page is 38 kilobytes long. Under current  article size
> guidelines, articles that exceed 32KB are considered to be too long. It
> may be appropriate to restructure this topic into a related series of
> shorter articles, or split off a section of it as a separate article.
> However, these are major structural changes which should not be made
> hastily, and should be made by consensus agreement among editors of the
> page. See the guidelines for details."

I'd like it made harsher: see below.

>> So what are the generally accepted criteria for length of articles in
>> encyclopedias?

> People should be getting tired of my stock answer to this, which is that
> the Eleventh Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica contains articles
> which exceed one megabyte in size. I need to get to the library and see
> what size the juicier articles in the Britannica 3 Macropaedia are.

A vastly important consideration is that text is remarkably harder to
read on a screen than on paper. The 32K article that's a lot of work to
read on screen is a lot easier to read on a printout - but almost no-one
(comparatively) will be reading a printout. 32K is when your eyes fall off
the screen, if not well before.

- d.


body:
abc_root wrote:

> I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or kanbun(
> ??/???) which is the standard form of Chinese for about two thousand
> years and was used throughout East Asia as the formal form of writing. Its
> importance in East Asia is like that of Latin in Europe. Now that
> Wikipedias are running or being started for many of the languages in East
> Asia, it seems that the language which is the backbone of these languages
> should also have a place.

So would this be created before or after a Cantonese wikipedia?

- d.


body:
David Gerard wrote:

> A vastly important consideration is that text is remarkably harder to
> read on a screen than on paper. The 32K article that's a lot of work
> to read on screen is a lot easier to read on a printout - but almost
> no-one (comparatively) will be reading a printout. 32K is when your
> eyes fall off the screen, if not well before.

Important maybe but I'm not sure about vastly. It needs to be weighed
against other factors such as the fact that screens aren't going to be
the only way of viewing Wikipedia content downstream and that many
people don't read whole articles but often refer to parts of articles.

Christiaan


from_name: Zoney

body:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:57:53 +0000, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> dpbsmith at verizon.net wrote:
>
> > I've Been Bold and rewritten the message. It now reads:
> > "Note: This page is 38 kilobytes long. Under current  article size
> > guidelines, articles that exceed 32KB are considered to be too long. It
> > may be appropriate to restructure this topic into a related series of
> > shorter articles, or split off a section of it as a separate article.
> > However, these are major structural changes which should not be made
> > hastily, and should be made by consensus agreement among editors of the
> > page. See the guidelines for details."
>
> I'd like it made harsher: see below.
>
>
> >> So what are the generally accepted criteria for length of articles in
> >> encyclopedias?
>
> > People should be getting tired of my stock answer to this, which is that
> > the Eleventh Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica contains articles
> > which exceed one megabyte in size. I need to get to the library and see
> > what size the juicier articles in the Britannica 3 Macropaedia are.
>
> A vastly important consideration is that text is remarkably harder to
> read on a screen than on paper. The 32K article that's a lot of work to
> read on screen is a lot easier to read on a printout - but almost no-one
> (comparatively) will be reading a printout. 32K is when your eyes fall off
> the screen, if not well before.
>
>
> - d.
>

So? We don't necessarily intend for people to read all the way through
an article on a country that is hundreds of years old for example.
People will skip to particular sections. If someone does want to read
through an entire long article, printing it out is probably the most
likely option!

32K is far too restrictive for major parent articles - no matter the
number of sub articles. Even just including an adequate summary for
each sub-topic results in quite a large article - summarising history
of a country alone is a massive task, nevermind adding short sections
on culture (sports, literature, food+drink, lifestyle), geography,
economy, government (!!!). No... any country article below 32K is very
likely to not adequately cover the swathe of articles that accompany
it.

Zoney

--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


body:
"Insert Ossetic Wiki Here"... such beautiful prose.

Mark

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:32:15 +0300, V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:52:19 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> > Oh, and many thanks to Brion for creating os.wikipedia last night!
>
> Yes! And for the first article: his was the first design of the Main
> Page! :) We'll be proud of it, for it's a good start.
>
> Sl.
>
> --
> Esperu cxiam!
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
Are any of your students Ossetic speakers, or for that matter speakers
of other Russian Federation languages?

Even if you don't know if any of them speak it, it would be a very
nice thing to mention.

When Wikipedia is spread from these students to their friends, it
would be nice if in addition to "Russian free encyclopedia which
anybody can edit", they will go to a Chuvash friend and say "Free
encyclopedia which anybody can edit, with even a version in Chuvash
waiting to be built".

I think that in this respect, if people were to mention this more such
wikipedias would have more contributors.

When Danny or Jimbo or Eloquence or Angela or whomever presents the
concept at a conference, as far as I know they either 1) don't mention
languages except in passing, 2) mention that it's multilingual and
that there are, for example, German and Japanese versions or 3)
mention the fact that it is available in the national language.

If a presentation is being made in Spain, I think it is important to
say "Not only is it available in Castillian, but there are also
Wikipedias in Asturian, Aragonese, Galician, Catalan, and Basque".

Some people may not think it is notable, but to give a local example
drives home that Wikipedia is very diverse. If you are presenting in
China, please don't forget to mention that we have places for people
to build Wikipedias in Yi, Zhuang, Tibetan, Uyghur, and many other
languages.

If you are in Indonesia, please don't forget to mention that there
are, in addition to the Indonesian Wikipedia (which is for whatever
strange reason separate from the Malay Wikipedia), Sundanese and
Javanese Wikipedias, and that Balinese, Timorese, Acehnese, or any
other Indonesian languages will be welcomed on Wikipedia.

If you are in India please don't forget to mention that we have a
Wikipedia for every single one of the languages mentioned in India's
constitution - not just Hindi, but Urdu, Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali,
Kashmiri, Assamese, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, and Oriya.

The population that speaks these languages is not especially relevant.
Even in Hawai'i please mention that we have a Hawai'ian Wikipedia (if
I were in Hawai'i for a conference to speak about Wikipedia, I would
also meet with Hawai'ian language activists to discuss Wikipedia with
them, but obviously and understandably such issues are not as
important when your focus is not linguistic diversity), in Phoenix
mention that we have a Navajo Wikipedia, in Calgary mention that we
have Cree and Inuktitut Wikipedias, in Denmark mention our Faroese and
Greenlandic Wikipedias.

Mark

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:43:54 +0300, V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've shawn the Wikipedia project to my students yesterday (its Russian
> part mostly). And one of the students asked me: "But how do they
> expect to collect the huge money? Who will pay 75000?!" :) Now at the
> next lesson I can show him the result: one pessimist off. :)
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Sl.
>
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 05:33:16 +0100, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I am properly amazed by the speed we reached our goal....10 days while
> > we had planned 3 weeks ! It is really impressing. The good point is also
> > that we can remove the fundraising banner so quickly ...
>
> --
> Esperu cxiam!
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] multilingualism (was Q1 drive)

body:
Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> Are any of your students Ossetic speakers, or for
that matter speakers
> of other Russian Federation languages?
>
> Even if you don't know if any of them speak it, it
would be a very
> nice thing to mention.
>
> When Wikipedia is spread from these students to
their friends, it
> would be nice if in addition to "Russian free
encyclopedia which
> anybody can edit", they will go to a Chuvash friend
and say "Free
> encyclopedia which anybody can edit, with even a
version in Chuvash
> waiting to be built".
>
> I think that in this respect, if people were to
mention this more such
> wikipedias would have more contributors.
>
> When Danny or Jimbo or Eloquence or Angela or
whomever presents the
> concept at a conference, as far as I know they
either 1) don't mention
> languages except in passing, 2) mention that it's
multilingual and
> that there are, for example, German and Japanese
versions or 3)
> mention the fact that it is available in the
national language.

Nod... I do not know about how they present Wikipedia
but for Jimbo. And Jimbo mentions it is multilingual.

I several times had that opportunity, either to talk
in a conference, or several times per month at
journalists, and my moto is free, free and
multilingual.

(just always nice to see that I am never listed as one
of those speakers, but well... getting used to it
months after months, thanks for the cheer up Node).

But, I thought the opportunity (your mail) was too
good not to mention my latest blog, since for the
first time I wrote in english rather than french. So,
if many french wont be able to understand it, some
might.

http://anthere.shaihome.net/index.php

I often disagree with you Node, but really, in this
case, I am fullheartedly with you. I recommand you
read my little story at the end of my post in
particular.

PS : my heart is a bit bleeding that yesterday, for
the first time, I wrote in english on my blog.

PPS : My blog is dedicated to Daniel Pink and his
latest article on Wired by the way.

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subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
--- Petr Kadlec <petr.kadlec at gmail.com> wrote:
> But I have a question: I always thought the fundraising pages on
> wikimediafoundation.org use templates so that they are kept
> synchronized all the time, without need for any per-page manual work.
> But if I take a look at those pages, each language version contains a
> different number in the status graph. I understand that it is a PITA
> to have to update each language version separately, but shouldn't it
> work automatically by a single update of a template page?

There are only two pages that got updated with each update; the detailed main
fund drive page and the progress bar graph (which is translated into many
different languages). I have noticed that cache is *badly* out of sync on the
foundation wiki - often edits I would make were not viewable by me until I
cleared my cache. That may be what you are seeing.

-- mav

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subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> I would like to give a big thank you to Daniel for the excellent work
> he's done on this. The daily updates were very nice to read.

Thanks :). Waerth also helped with updates while I was sleeping or otherwise
away. This was a big help.

-- mav

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subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


from_name: Matthew Trump

subject: [WikiEN-l] Kenneth Alan

body:
This evening I blocked User:Borderer as an alias of User:Kenneth
Alan, who was banned for a year by the arbitration committee on
October 2, 2004 for highly abusive behavior and other controversial
editing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Kenneth_Alan

Many of you are familiar this user, so I wanted to notify the mailing
list as a whole.

Kenneth came back as Borderer in December. I noticed him in mid
January, because an edit he made on one of my watchlist articles. The
edit was suspicious enough that I went to the user's contributions
and immediately verified it was him, based on the unique telltale
constellation of topics that he has edited in the past. I didn't act
at the time,  however, because in his new identity he was editing in
a very restrained and lowkey manner, and I was willing to look the
other way and let him perhaps evolve into a productive editor, all
the while with the ban hanging over his head.

In the past two weeks, however, he began returning to form, insulting
users in an increasingly strident manner, and rousing animosity in
the way he has before. When he switched from small edits and
additions to adding a full-scale essay (on [[Danelaw]]) linking 9th
century Scandavian history with contemporary U.S. politics, I knew he
was "back" in full and immediately blocked him again idefinitely. I
apologize to anyone who have been antogonized by him in his new
identity over the last month, not realizing it was him, but I wanted
to give a chance to redeem himself. I will certainly not do so again.

According to the rules of the arbitration com, I don't know how or if
this affects the "clock" on his 1-year ban.

best wishes to all,
Matthew Trump [[User:Decumanus]]


body:
--- "V. Ivanov" <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've shawn the Wikipedia project to my students yesterday (its Russian
> part mostly). And one of the students asked me: "But how do they
> expect to collect the huge money? Who will pay 75000?!" :) Now at the
> next lesson I can show him the result: one pessimist off. :)

Tell them 'the same way it is written: a great many small efforts with some
larger efforts mixed-in'. There is *no* way we could have reached our fund
drive goal without all the smaller donations. Every little bit counted.

-- mav

__________________________________
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body:
Hiya

I am properly amazed by the speed we reached our goal....10 days while
we had planned 3 weeks ! It is really impressing. The good point is also
that we can remove the fundraising banner so quickly ...

Mav, thanks *a lot* for your efficiency on the whole issue :-)

Ant

Daniel Mayer a ?crit:
> We met and then well-exceded the goal to raise $75,000 (USD) in this quarter's
> fund drive. See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 for
> details (still waiting for final numbers in every source category so final
> grand total will be higher).
>
> I consider 11:59 PM Monday 28 February 2005 (eastern US timezone since PayPal
> data are not available in UTC) as the official end of our fund drive for
> accounting purposes. As of right now though, all fund drive notes should be
> replaced by congratulatory messages that can be left until midnight on Thursday
> (UTC). After that, [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] should be blanked until the next
> fund drive.
>
> For reference, here is the message displayed on the English Wikipedia:
>
>
>

> You did it! Thanks to your generosity we exceeded our fund drive goal by 15%.
> ([[wikimedia:Fund drives/2005/Q1|details]])

>
> Show your pride in Wikipedia by purchasing merchandise through
> [http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia our Cafe Press shop].
>

>
>
> My regular home computer will not boot for some unknown reason, so I will not
> be able to run the Day 10 (Sunday) report at this time. Day 11 (Monday) will be
> the final report for this fund drive.
>
>
> Daniel Mayer,
> Wikimedia CFO
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: deletion of images

body:
Brion Vibber a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Why is deletion of images permanent ?
>
>
> Because it's more complicated to store them in a restricted-access
> deletion queue, and no such queue has been implemented yet.
>
>> Is there a good reason it is so while articles may be restored ?
>
>
> Article undeletion was a much higher priority, and also essentially
> easier to do (as it doesn't require moving and hiding actual files,
> merely shuffling data between tables). Therefore it was implemented much
> earlier.
>
>> Is there a solution other than retrieving lost images on our mirrors ?
>
>
> We have complete backups of the image upload directories, and can
> restore files from backup if they are not available elsewhere.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

okay, adress of restoring noted.

Ant


from_name: Petr Kadlec

subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:41:14 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer
<maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> We met and then well-exceded the goal to raise $75,000 (USD) in this quarter's
> fund drive. See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 for
> details (still waiting for final numbers in every source category so final
> grand total will be higher).

Congratulations and thanks to all!

But I have a question: I always thought the fundraising pages on
wikimediafoundation.org use templates so that they are kept
synchronized all the time, without need for any per-page manual work.
But if I take a look at those pages, each language version contains a
different number in the status graph. I understand that it is a PITA
to have to update each language version separately, but shouldn't it
work automatically by a single update of a template page?

-- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]


subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
--- Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> Another thanks to mav for the very informative updates!

Thanks for the compliment. :)

Much thanks also goes to the numerous people who created translations and who
helped me with updates.

> I do have one question---what's the relationship between the Wikimedia
> Foundation and Wikimedia Deutschland?  Is that money to be considered
> part of our overall fundraising, i.e. money that can eventually be used
> for servers, etc., or is it specifically for activities within Germany?

That is a very good question that I'm not clear on either. One reason why I sat
on the Wikimedia Deutschland numbers for a few days was due to this question.
Every indication I did get from the few members of the Wikimedia Deutschland
board I talked too about this, was that we are all one Wikimedia and the
numbers should be included. Thus I finally made that update.

Legal issues about how that money can be spent (or transfered and then spent)
still are not clear to me. Speaking solely as a user and not as CFO, I think it
would make the most sense (and probably be easiest to do) if Wikimedia
Deutschland spent this money directly inside Germany to buy hardware needed to
set-up a server farm in Germany. This could even become the primary and logical
purpose of having national chapters in the first place (other than the social
aspect).

At the very least a squid-caching set-up in Germany would be nice, but the
amount of money Wikimedia Deutschland has would make it possible to have a
database slave as well (IIRC, Jamesday said this type of set-up is possible
even for wikis). Then the next time our Florida cluster goes down we can
theoretically be up in at least read-only mode in a very short amount of time
(please, somebody correct me if this is possible with a separate squid-only
set-up).

-- mav

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subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


body:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:52:19 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:

> Oh, and many thanks to Brion for creating os.wikipedia last night!

Yes! And for the first article: his was the first design of the Main
Page! :) We'll be proud of it, for it's a good start.

Sl.

--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
I would like to give a big thank you to Daniel for the excellent work
he's done on this. The daily updates were very nice to read.

All best,

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

body:
Kaixo!

On Mon, Feb 28, 2005 at 05:31:42PM -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:

> In addition there was the old practice in Japanese of writing a
> neologism descriptively in Chinese characters, and writing the
> pronunciation (usually from English or French) right above it.

A more problematic issue would be proper nouns, like place names
or country names; while some of them (those in the area of influence
of Chinese, eg: Vietnam, Thailand, China, Mongolia, Corea, Japan, etc)
are identiqual in both Chinese and Japanese (at least in classical
writting), others are not, for example in Chinese USA is the
"beauty-country" while in Japanese it is the "rice-country";
France is in Chinese represented by the hanzi meaning "law",
while in Japanese the hanzi for "Buddha" is used instead, etc.

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
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body:
I've shawn the Wikipedia project to my students yesterday (its Russian
part mostly). And one of the students asked me: "But how do they
expect to collect the huge money? Who will pay 75000?!" :) Now at the
next lesson I can show him the result: one pessimist off. :)

Congratulations!

Sl.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 05:33:16 +0100, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am properly amazed by the speed we reached our goal....10 days while
> we had planned 3 weeks ! It is really impressing. The good point is also
> that we can remove the fundraising banner so quickly ...

--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] 172 de-sysopped

body:
I de-sysoped 172, as he seems to have managed to start Wikipedia's first
Blocking War. The problem is, I haphazardly blocked 3 other admins too,
and one of them's mad at me.

I wish Snowspinner had e-mailed me or met me in talk first; he's put in
a RFA instead. Well, I can't say I didn't deserve it.

It all has to do with the 3RR, sock-puppets and global warming. Any two
of which is enough to push people's buttons in Our Town.

Or is it Peyton Place?

Ed Poor


body:
They can be produced at the same time. Cantonese speakers only constitute a
small portion of kanbun users.

--- David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> ?????????
> abc_root wrote:
>
> > I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or
> kanbun(
> > ????????? which is the standard form of Chinese for about
> two thousand
> > years and was used throughout East Asia as the formal form of
> writing. Its
> > importance in East Asia is like that of Latin in Europe. Now that
> > Wikipedias are running or being started for many of the languages
> in East
> > Asia, it seems that the language which is the backbone of these
> languages
> > should also have a place.
>
>
> So would this be created before or after a Cantonese wikipedia?
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

__________________________________
Let's Celebrate Together!
Yahoo! JAPAN
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/so2005/


body:
You mean you want to have all these in the same wikipedia? That would not
be useful because very few people can read all these.

--- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> ?????????
> I have an idea: Let's just make a zh-whatever: for all the different
> things relating to Chinese that people want. They can mix Cantonese
> with Wu with Mandarin, some romanized, some using characters, they
> can
> add classical  chinese, even jiaguwenzi (tortoise shell ancient
> characters), as well as zhuyin fuhao, and dungan (ie sichuan mandarin
> writtne in cyrillic basically), and we can also mix in English and
> Russian and Portuguese and Korean.
>
> So what do you think?
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:03:08 +0000, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > abc_root wrote:
> >
> > > I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or
> kanbun(
> > > ????????? which is the standard form of Chinese for
> about two thousand
> > > years and was used throughout East Asia as the formal form of
> writing. Its
> > > importance in East Asia is like that of Latin in Europe. Now that
> > > Wikipedias are running or being started for many of the languages
> in East
> > > Asia, it seems that the language which is the backbone of these
> languages
> > > should also have a place.
> >
> > So would this be created before or after a Cantonese wikipedia?
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

__________________________________
Let's Celebrate Together!
Yahoo! JAPAN
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/so2005/


from_name: Felix Wan

body:
On Tue, March 1, 2005 10:00 am, Delirium said:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>> Some people may not think it is notable, but to give a local example
>> drives home that Wikipedia is very diverse. If you are presenting in
>> China, please don't forget to mention that we have places for people
>> to build Wikipedias in Yi, Zhuang, Tibetan, Uyghur, and many other
>> languages.
>>
> I don't disagree with this, but it's probably worth noting that
> languages are intimately connected to culture, nationalism, and
> politics, so when to mention what can sometimes be a sensitive
> issue. In China, in particular, promoting of regional languages
> is often connected to promoting regional political independence
> (i.e. secession from China, or at least increased autonomy), so
> needs to be done somewhat carefully so we don't become seen as a
> meddling US-based political organization that's trying to break
> apart China or something like that.
>
> -Mark
>
The PRC government recognizes that the minorities (non-Han) have
their own languages.  Some of them are even printed on the Renminbi
bank notes.  The word "Putonghua" (common speech) was coined by PRC
to replace the previous name "Guoyu" (national speech), officially
as a repect to the minorities.  I believe it should be rather safe
to promote an encyclopedia in any recognized minority language.

Even for Han Chinese regional speeches, although the government
recognize them as dialects rather than different but related
languages, there is no official statement against promoting them
and there is no record of considering the action secessionist yet.

They make a great effor in promoting Putonghua though.

I am not saying that we should not be careful about the language
issue, but I just want to set the record straight.

Felix Wan


body:
Some people may want to create their own Chinese words to represent the
meaning of these foreign words. In fact many of the Chinese words are
created in translating foreign words. However in recent decades the various
countries are creating their individual Chinese words for even the same
foreign word and this is causing confusion. I suggest putting some limit on
these new creations, or at least, when one thinks his new word might not be
readily understood by other users, he should note down the original word.

--- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> ?????????
> In addition there was the old practice in Japanese of writing a
> neologism descriptively in Chinese characters, and writing the
> pronunciation (usually from English or French) right above it.
>
> This was done with "denwa", which is interesting because people often
> just read it as "denwa" instead of reading the phonetic guide
> "terehon", whereas in other cases people always stuck to the phonetic
> reading so now there are sets of kanji for new words which do not fit
> with their readings. (however, this has fallen out of favor so people
> usually use katakana for such loanwords instead)
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:16:04 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
> <felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, February 28, 2005 3:03 pm, David Gerard said:
> > >
> > > So would this be created before or after a Cantonese wikipedia?
> > >
> > I hope that Classical Chinese Wikipedia is more accepted, and I
> don't
> > mind if it is created before the Cantonese Wikipedia.  I hope that
> we
> > can consider the merits of a Classical Chinese Wikipedia
> seperately,
> > unaffected by the emotion surrounding Chinese regional speeches.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, February 28, 2005 2:12 am, abc_root said:
> > >
> > > I would like to request a new Wikipedia for classical Chinese or
> > > kanbun( ???????????/????????????????)
> which is the standard form of Chinese for
> > > about two thousand years and was used throughout East Asia as the
> > > formal form of writing. Its importance in East Asia is like that
> of
> > > Latin in Europe. Now that Wikipedias are running or being started
> > > for many of the languages in East Asia, it seems that the
> language
> > > which is the backbone of these languages should also have a
> place.
> > >
> > I find that an interesting idea and will support it.  I am just not
> > sure how many people are fluent enough in Classical Chinese to
> > maintain the site.
> >
> > > One problem that might be encountered in writing articles for
> kanbun
> > > wikipedia is how the foreign loanwords (e.g. from English) should
> be
> > > phonetically transcribed when there is no corresponding word in
> kanbun
> > > itself. If they are transcribed using kanji (Chinese characters),
> there
> > > is the question of which language should be used to read the
> kanji.
> > > Here I suggest using an alphabet system of East Asia (e.g.
> Japanese
> > > kana or Korean hangul, or Taiwanese chu-yin) for the
> transcription and
> > > also note the original word in English (or any other language of
> origin
> > > or the roman transcription if the language is not written in
> roman
> > > alphabet). This allows kanbun users speaking different languages
> to
> > > know the original foreign word.
> > >
> > I have different ideas for loanwords.  If the loanword is a proper
> noun,
> > and do not have a historical transcription, we could be better off
> to
> > leave it in its original form. (or roman transcription?)
> >
> > If the loanword is a common noun that has a meaning, the way
> Classical
> > Chinese should work is to coin a word that expresses its meaning.
> > Japanese speakers did a good job in coining "keisai" for economics
> and
> > "denwa" for telephone, and those terms were well accepted by
> Chinese
> > speakers.  However, newer terms are usually phonetically
> transliterated
> > in katakana, which in my opinion is a little bit lazy.  Many
> translations
> > in modern Chinese follow that same principle of Classical Chinese.
> We
> > may pick from those that convey the meaning, not just the sound.
> >
> > Felix Wan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

__________________________________
Let's Celebrate Together!
Yahoo! JAPAN
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/so2005/


body:
Oh, don't be serious on that remark.  I think it is sacrastic.
Read the threads on the request for Wikipedia in Chinese dialects
(regional speeches) and you will understand why I think so.

Felix Wan

On Mon, February 28, 2005 6:52 pm, abc_root said:
> You mean you want to have all these in the same wikipedia? That would not
>  be useful because very few people can read all these.
>
> --- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> $B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!'(B
>
>> I have an idea: Let's just make a zh-whatever: for all the different
>> things relating to Chinese that people want. They can mix Cantonese with
>> Wu with Mandarin, some romanized, some using characters, they
>> can add classical  chinese, even jiaguwenzi (tortoise shell ancient
>> characters), as well as zhuyin fuhao, and dungan (ie sichuan mandarin
>> writtne in cyrillic basically), and we can also mix in English and
>> Russian and Portuguese and Korean.
>>
>> So what do you think?
>>
>> Mark


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Hi Anthere,

The post is wonderful :)

But I hope it is not too late - you can still post belatedly a French
translation of it. It's not the same as having your blog entirely in
French, but it is somewhat different.

Mark

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:50:47 -0800 (PST), Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> > Are any of your students Ossetic speakers, or for
> that matter speakers
> > of other Russian Federation languages?
> >
> > Even if you don't know if any of them speak it, it
> would be a very
> > nice thing to mention.
> >
> > When Wikipedia is spread from these students to
> their friends, it
> > would be nice if in addition to "Russian free
> encyclopedia which
> > anybody can edit", they will go to a Chuvash friend
> and say "Free
> > encyclopedia which anybody can edit, with even a
> version in Chuvash
> > waiting to be built".
> >
> > I think that in this respect, if people were to
> mention this more such
> > wikipedias would have more contributors.
> >
> > When Danny or Jimbo or Eloquence or Angela or
> whomever presents the
> > concept at a conference, as far as I know they
> either 1) don't mention
> > languages except in passing, 2) mention that it's
> multilingual and
> > that there are, for example, German and Japanese
> versions or 3)
> > mention the fact that it is available in the
> national language.
>
> Nod... I do not know about how they present Wikipedia
> but for Jimbo. And Jimbo mentions it is multilingual.
>
> I several times had that opportunity, either to talk
> in a conference, or several times per month at
> journalists, and my moto is free, free and
> multilingual.
>
> (just always nice to see that I am never listed as one
> of those speakers, but well... getting used to it
> months after months, thanks for the cheer up Node).
>
> But, I thought the opportunity (your mail) was too
> good not to mention my latest blog, since for the
> first time I wrote in english rather than french. So,
> if many french wont be able to understand it, some
> might.
>
> http://anthere.shaihome.net/index.php
>
> I often disagree with you Node, but really, in this
> case, I am fullheartedly with you. I recommand you
> read my little story at the end of my post in
> particular.
>
> PS : my heart is a bit bleeding that yesterday, for
> the first time, I wrote in english on my blog.
>
> PPS : My blog is dedicated to Daniel Pink and his
> latest article on Wired by the way.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
> _______________________________________________
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> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Alex Brooks

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Zend Optimiser

body:
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Hash: SHA1

NSK wrote:
> Wikipedia/WikiCommons/Wikibooks are all dangerously slow. I recently installed
> the Zend Optimiser 2.5.7 on my site www.wikinerds.org . Zend Optimiser speeds
> up php by 40%. I think you should install it too if you haven't done so
> already.
>
>

Thats going to be difficult unless its open source.

So, they allready use an open-source alternative!

Yippie!

Alex
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body:
I think that, as long as you are careful to say "even available in
minority languages" rather than "there are also versions in the other
major languages of China" (which they really are - all of the
languages I mentioned have over 1m speakers in China), and as long as
you don't mention Tibetan by itself.

On a side note, I forgot to include Mongolian.

Mark

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:00:14 -0500, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Some people may not think it is notable, but to give a local example
> >drives home that Wikipedia is very diverse. If you are presenting in
> >China, please don't forget to mention that we have places for people
> >to build Wikipedias in Yi, Zhuang, Tibetan, Uyghur, and many other
> >languages.
> >
> >
> I don't disagree with this, but it's probably worth noting that
> languages are intimately connected to culture, nationalism, and
> politics, so when to mention what can sometimes be a sensitive issue.
> In China, in particular, promoting of regional languages is often
> connected to promoting regional political independence (i.e. secession
> from China, or at least increased autonomy), so needs to be done
> somewhat carefully so we don't become seen as a meddling US-based
> political organization that's trying to break apart China or something
> like that.
>
> -Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Anthere

body:
Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> Are any of your students Ossetic speakers, or for that matter speakers
> of other Russian Federation languages?
>
> Even if you don't know if any of them speak it, it would be a very
> nice thing to mention.
>
> When Wikipedia is spread from these students to their friends, it
> would be nice if in addition to "Russian free encyclopedia which
> anybody can edit", they will go to a Chuvash friend and say "Free
> encyclopedia which anybody can edit, with even a version in Chuvash
> waiting to be built".
>
> I think that in this respect, if people were to mention this more such
> wikipedias would have more contributors.
>
> When Danny or Jimbo or Eloquence or Angela or whomever presents the
> concept at a conference, as far as I know they either 1) don't mention
> languages except in passing, 2) mention that it's multilingual and
> that there are, for example, German and Japanese versions or 3)
> mention the fact that it is available in the national language.

Nod... I do not know about how they present Wikipedia but for Jimbo. And
Jimbo mentions it is multilingual.

I several times had that opportunity, either to talk in a conference, or
several times per month at journalists, and my moto is free, free and
multilingual.

(just always nice to see that I am never listed as one of those
speakers, but well... getting used to it months after months, thanks for
the cheer up Node).

But, I thought the opportunity (your mail) was too good not to mention
my latest blog, since for the first time I wrote in english rather than
french. So, if many french wont be able to understand it, some might.

http://anthere.shaihome.net/index.php

I often disagree with you Node, but really, in this case, I am
fullheartedly with you. I recommand you read my little story at the end
of my post in particular.

PS : my heart is a bit bleeding that yesterday, for the first time, I
wrote in english on my blog.

PPS : My blog is dedicated to Daniel Pink and his latest article on
Wired by the way.


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
Another thanks to mav for the very informative updates!

I do have one question---what's the relationship between the Wikimedia
Foundation and Wikimedia Deutschland?  Is that money to be considered
part of our overall fundraising, i.e. money that can eventually be used
for servers, etc., or is it specifically for activities within Germany?

(Not a leading question, I've just never seen the relationship really
explained.  Someone pointed out that a future Wikimedia Canada would by
Canadian law have to spend its donations within Canada, and I'm not sure
if similar laws apply in Germany?)

-Mark


subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Some people may not think it is notable, but to give a local example
>drives home that Wikipedia is very diverse. If you are presenting in
>China, please don't forget to mention that we have places for people
>to build Wikipedias in Yi, Zhuang, Tibetan, Uyghur, and many other
>languages.
>
>
I don't disagree with this, but it's probably worth noting that
languages are intimately connected to culture, nationalism, and
politics, so when to mention what can sometimes be a sensitive issue.
In China, in particular, promoting of regional languages is often
connected to promoting regional political independence (i.e. secession
from China, or at least increased autonomy), so needs to be done
somewhat carefully so we don't become seen as a meddling US-based
political organization that's trying to break apart China or something
like that.

-Mark


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] 172 de-sysopped

body:
The questions I have. Were any of them violating our blocking policies and
why was it such an emergency that immediate action was required?

Fred

> From: "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:43:17 -0800
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] 172 de-sysopped
>
> I de-sysoped 172, as he seems to have managed to start Wikipedia's first
> Blocking War. The problem is, I haphazardly blocked 3 other admins too,
> and one of them's mad at me.
>
> I wish Snowspinner had e-mailed me or met me in talk first; he's put in
> a RFA instead. Well, I can't say I didn't deserve it.
>
> It all has to do with the 3RR, sock-puppets and global warming. Any two
> of which is enough to push people's buttons in Our Town.
>
> Or is it Peyton Place?
>
> Ed Poor
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over

body:
Delirium wrote:

> Another thanks to mav for the very informative updates!
>
> I do have one question---what's the relationship between the Wikimedia
> Foundation and Wikimedia Deutschland?  Is that money to be considered
> part of our overall fundraising, i.e. money that can eventually be
> used for servers, etc., or is it specifically for activities within
> Germany?
>
> (Not a leading question, I've just never seen the relationship really
> explained.  Someone pointed out that a future Wikimedia Canada would
> by Canadian law have to spend its donations within Canada, and I'm not
> sure if similar laws apply in Germany?)

That Canadian requirement would only come into effect if we wanted our
donations recognized for tax credits under the Income Tax Act.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Q1 2005 Fund Drive over


body:
It should, however, be noted that while music and written material in
"dialects" is never censored, there has been a high-profile case where
Tom and Jerry were dubbed in, I believe it was Wu, and it was banned
from airing, although I believe the DVD will still be distributed.

What's ironic about the whole fiasco is that in the original English,
Tom and Jerry were both silent.

Mark

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:59:08 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
<felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> On Tue, March 1, 2005 10:00 am, Delirium said:
> > Mark Williamson wrote:
> >
> >> Some people may not think it is notable, but to give a local example
> >> drives home that Wikipedia is very diverse. If you are presenting in
> >> China, please don't forget to mention that we have places for people
> >> to build Wikipedias in Yi, Zhuang, Tibetan, Uyghur, and many other
> >> languages.
> >>
> > I don't disagree with this, but it's probably worth noting that
> > languages are intimately connected to culture, nationalism, and
> > politics, so when to mention what can sometimes be a sensitive
> > issue. In China, in particular, promoting of regional languages
> > is often connected to promoting regional political independence
> > (i.e. secession from China, or at least increased autonomy), so
> > needs to be done somewhat carefully so we don't become seen as a
> > meddling US-based political organization that's trying to break
> > apart China or something like that.
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> The PRC government recognizes that the minorities (non-Han) have
> their own languages.  Some of them are even printed on the Renminbi
> bank notes.  The word "Putonghua" (common speech) was coined by PRC
> to replace the previous name "Guoyu" (national speech), officially
> as a repect to the minorities.  I believe it should be rather safe
> to promote an encyclopedia in any recognized minority language.
>
> Even for Han Chinese regional speeches, although the government
> recognize them as dialects rather than different but related
> languages, there is no official statement against promoting them
> and there is no record of considering the action secessionist yet.
>
> They make a great effor in promoting Putonghua though.
>
> I am not saying that we should not be careful about the language
> issue, but I just want to set the record straight.
>
> Felix Wan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: V. Ivanov

body:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:35:10 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
> Are any of your students Ossetic speakers, or for that matter speakers
> of other Russian Federation languages?

No. They are mostly ethnic Russians living at St. Petersburg.

> Even if you don't know if any of them speak it, it would be a very
> nice thing to mention.

Well, I did mention that it's in tens of languages, including minority
ones as (several examples here). In fact they are future linguists:
and the fact of multilingualism at Wikipedia might be interesting for
them.

> If a presentation is being made in Spain, I think it is important to
> say "Not only is it available in Castillian, but there are also
> Wikipedias in Asturian, Aragonese, Galician, Catalan, and Basque".

Well, I've put the news to
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%8B%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%8F
. The text is smth like "28 February: the Ossetic Wikipedia is now on,
being the fourth Wikipedia in the languages of Russia, afte the
Russian, Tatar and Chuvash wikipedias".

> also meet with Hawai'ian language activists to discuss Wikipedia with
> them, but obviously and understandably such issues are not as

For lesser used languages Wikipedia might be extremely necessary, for
the speakers often don't have enough resources to print a classic
encyclopedia. Flexibility of Wikipedia mechanism is the best here.
While in Russian or English they can argue, if Wikipedia is good
(reliable, etc.) enough, in a lesser used language they just don't
have much choice!

> important when your focus is not linguistic diversity), in Phoenix
> mention that we have a Navajo Wikipedia,

If it's code is nv, then its interwiki links don't work at
os.wikipedia.org and I have to cut them.

Sl.
--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: notafish

subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo

body:
Same here. In doubt and until things are clarified, I added a Beta
sign on the French Main Page.

Cheers,

Delphine

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:30:37 +0900, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> A question on "beta" stage of Wikinews came to me.
>
> Though Wikinews is a prospective project, it is still one of most
> controversial project among us, and hasty action woudn't be good for
> its development in my humble opinion.
>
> I've understood it is (or has been, I am not sure for that) on its
> beta stage because of the board decision, not depending on its
> activity. The most recent board was held in the last week and there
> was no discussion if Wikinews switched from its beta stage to the
> stage in its real activity. And this decision was made for the
> Wikinews entirely, not to its each local project.
>
> Now it seems to be suggested the judge of the end of beta stage
> depends only the activites of each local project, not related to the
> board decision. It seems to me a bit strange and adventurous.  It is
> my wrong understanding or I miss some announce on Wikinews?
>
> --
> Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
> email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] 172 de-sysopped

body:
--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> The questions I have. Were any of them violating our blocking policies and
> why was it such an emergency that immediate action was required?

I would like to know this as well.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


body:
Indeed: Such a Wikipedia would be chaos.

It does mirror the proposal from Meta however of a Wikipedia where
Cantonese and Mandarin and English, in characters and in romanisation
(any romanisation of your choosing, no specific one) are all mixed
together in one Wikipedia... except even MORE confusing!

Mark

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:04:38 -0800 (PST), Felix Wan
<felixwiki at earthsphere.org> wrote:
> Oh, don't be serious on that remark.  I think it is sacrastic.
> Read the threads on the request for Wikipedia in Chinese dialects
> (regional speeches) and you will understand why I think so.
>
> Felix Wan
>
>
> On Mon, February 28, 2005 6:52 pm, abc_root said:
> > You mean you want to have all these in the same wikipedia? That would not
> >  be useful because very few people can read all these.
> >
> > --- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> $B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!'(B
> >
> >> I have an idea: Let's just make a zh-whatever: for all the different
> >> things relating to Chinese that people want. They can mix Cantonese with
> >> Wu with Mandarin, some romanized, some using characters, they
> >> can add classical  chinese, even jiaguwenzi (tortoise shell ancient
> >> characters), as well as zhuyin fuhao, and dungan (ie sichuan mandarin
> >> writtne in cyrillic basically), and we can also mix in English and
> >> Russian and Portuguese and Korean.
> >>
> >> So what do you think?
> >>
> >> Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] 172 de-sysopped

body:
To wit, I wish you'd e-mailed me or met me in talk before unilaterally
desysopping me. :)

But I've removed the RFAr. The matter is resolved to my satisfaction
for now.

-Snowspinner

On Mar 1, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> I de-sysoped 172, as he seems to have managed to start Wikipedia's
> first
> Blocking War. The problem is, I haphazardly blocked 3 other admins too,
> and one of them's mad at me.
>
> I wish Snowspinner had e-mailed me or met me in talk first; he's put in
> a RFA instead. Well, I can't say I didn't deserve it.
>
> It all has to do with the 3RR, sock-puppets and global warming. Any two
> of which is enough to push people's buttons in Our Town.
>
> Or is it Peyton Place?
>
> Ed Poor
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Lars Aronsson

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> --- "V. Ivanov" <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've shawn the Wikipedia project to my students yesterday (its Russian
> > part mostly). And one of the students asked me: "But how do they
> > expect to collect the huge money? Who will pay 75000?!" :) Now at the
> > next lesson I can show him the result: one pessimist off. :)
>
> Tell them 'the same way it is written: a great many small efforts
> with some larger efforts mixed-in'. There is *no* way we could have
> reached our fund drive goal without all the smaller donations. Every
> little bit counted.

This is not the whole truth.  For economically less developed
countries such as Russia, or heavily taxed countries such as Sweden,
this amount of voluntary fundraising (per capita) is uncommon.  In
Russia, the common question might be "does so much money even exist?"
and in Sweden the common question would be "I paid all my money in
taxes, so why doesn't the government pay for this?"  (The idea, right
or wrong, that the government does spend its money wisely is very
common here, otherwise the high level of taxation would never work.)
The students in St Petersburg should be glad that they are invited to
an open potluck party, where some people bring money and other people
bring their brains.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


subject: [WikiEN-l] 172 de-sysopped

body:
Why would they all have to recuse? This had nothing to do with the Ambi
block...

-Snowspinner

On Mar 1, 2005, at 2:18 PM, geni wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:56:18 -0600, Phil Sandifer
> <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> But I've removed the RFAr. The matter is resolved to my satisfaction
>> for now.
>>
>> -Snowspinner
>
>
> So we don't get to find out what happens when every single member of
> arbcom has to recuse?
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>