from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] New texvc

body:
Database format, format of communication between PHP and texvc and
PHP code is not touched. Upgrade shouldn't bring any problems.

Changes:
* cases envinonment supported
* \left and \right must be followed by delimiters, and must balance.
    It could generate some parse errors on previously accepted
    input. It could happen in two cases:
	* this input was invalid latex anyway
	* some valid delimiters is not on texvc's list
* \big \bigg \Big \Bigg supported (they must be followed by delimiters)
* \ddots supported

Please update test.wikipedia.org, and if no bugs are found in
the next few days, update all Wikipedias.
-------------- next part --------------
diff -ruN math.orig/html.ml math/html.ml
--- math.orig/html.ml	2003-02-13 18:43:37.000000000 +0100
+++ math/html.ml	2003-03-07 17:03:46.000000000 +0100
@@ -56,6 +56,8 @@
   | TEX_INFIX _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
   | TEX_INFIXh _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
   | TEX_MATRIX _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
+  | TEX_LR _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
+  | TEX_BIG _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
   | [] -> ""
 and html_render_size ctx = function
     TEX_LITERAL (HTMLABLE_BIG (_,sh)) -> true,sh
@@ -91,6 +93,8 @@
   | TEX_FUN2sq  _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
   | TEX_INFIX _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
   | TEX_MATRIX _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
+  | TEX_LR _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
+  | TEX_BIG _::_ -> raise Too_difficult_for_html
   | [] -> []

 let rec html_render_table = function
diff -ruN math.orig/lexer.mll math/lexer.mll
--- math.orig/lexer.mll	2003-02-02 04:16:07.000000000 +0100
+++ math/lexer.mll	2003-03-07 15:59:38.000000000 +0100
@@ -7,8 +7,10 @@
 let alpha = ['a'-'z' 'A'-'Z']
 let literal_id = ['a'-'z' 'A'-'Z']
 let literal_mn = ['0'-'9']
-let literal_uf_lt = [',' '(' ')' ':'  ';' '?' '.' '!' '\'']
-let literal_uf_op = ['+' '-' '*' '=' '/' '|']
+let literal_uf_lt = [',' ':' ';' '?' '!' '\'']
+let delimiter_uf_lt = ['(' ')' '.']
+let literal_uf_op = ['+' '-' '*' '=' '|']
+let delimiter_uf_op = ['/']
 let boxchars  = ['0'-'9' 'a'-'z' 'A'-'Z' '+' '-' '*' ',' '=' '(' ')' ':' '/' ';' '?' '.' '!' ' ' '\128'-'\255']
 let aboxchars = ['0'-'9' 'a'-'z' 'A'-'Z' '+' '-' '*' ',' '=' '(' ')' ':' '/' ';' '?' '.' '!' ' ']

@@ -44,6 +46,7 @@
   | literal_id			{ let str = Lexing.lexeme lexbuf in LITERAL (MHTMLABLEC (FONT_IT, str,str,MI,str)) }
   | literal_mn			{ let str = Lexing.lexeme lexbuf in LITERAL (MHTMLABLEC (FONT_RM, str,str,MN,str)) }
   | literal_uf_lt		{ let str = Lexing.lexeme lexbuf in LITERAL (HTMLABLEC (FONT_UFH, str,str)) }
+  | delimiter_uf_lt		{ let str = Lexing.lexeme lexbuf in DELIMITER (HTMLABLEC (FONT_UFH, str,str)) }
   | literal_uf_op		{ let str = Lexing.lexeme lexbuf in LITERAL (MHTMLABLEC (FONT_UFH, str," "^str^" ",MO,str)) }
   | "\\" alpha + 		{ Texutil.find (Lexing.lexeme lexbuf) }
   | "\\sqrt" space * "["	{ FUN_AR1opt "\\sqrt" }
@@ -51,9 +54,9 @@
   | "\\ " 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\ "," ")) }
   | "\\;" 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\;"," ")) }
   | "\\!" 			{ LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\!") }
-  | "\\{" 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\{","{")) }
-  | "\\}" 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\}","}")) }
-  | "\\|" 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\|","||")) }
+  | "\\{" 			{ DELIMITER (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\{","{")) }
+  | "\\}" 			{ DELIMITER (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\}","}")) }
+  | "\\|" 			{ DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\|","||")) }
   | "\\_" 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\_","_")) }
   | "\\#" 			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\#","#")) }
   | "\\%"			{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\%","%")) }
@@ -71,11 +74,13 @@
   | "\\end{vmatrix}"		{ END_VMATRIX }
   | "\\begin{Vmatrix}"		{ Texutil.tex_use_ams(); BEGIN_VVMATRIX }
   | "\\end{Vmatrix}"		{ END_VVMATRIX }
+  | "\\begin{cases}"		{ Texutil.tex_use_ams(); BEGIN_CASES }
+  | "\\end{cases}"		{ END_CASES }
   | '>'				{ LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,">"," > ")) }
   | '<'				{ LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"<"," < ")) }
   | '%'				{ LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\%","%")) }
   | '~'				{ LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "~"," ")) }
-  | '['				{ LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"[","[")) }
+  | '['				{ DELIMITER (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"[","[")) }
   | ']'				{ SQ_CLOSE }
   | '{'				{ CURLY_OPEN }
   | '}'				{ CURLY_CLOSE }
diff -ruN math.orig/parser.mly math/parser.mly
--- math.orig/parser.mly	2003-01-06 02:07:17.000000000 +0100
+++ math/parser.mly	2003-03-07 17:02:00.000000000 +0100
@@ -1,17 +1,20 @@
 %{
     open Tex
     open Render_info
+
+    let sq_close_ri = HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"]", "]")
 %}
-%token <Render_info.t> LITERAL
-%token <string> FUN_AR2 FUN_INFIX FUN_AR1 DECL FUN_AR1opt
+%token <Render_info.t> LITERAL DELIMITER
+%token <string> FUN_AR2 FUN_INFIX FUN_AR1 DECL FUN_AR1opt BIG
 %token <string*string> BOX
 %token <string*(string*string)> FUN_AR1hl
 %token <string*Render_info.font_force> FUN_AR1hf DECLh
 %token <string*(Tex.t->Tex.t->string*string*string)> FUN_AR2h
 %token <string*(Tex.t list->Tex.t list->string*string*string)> FUN_INFIXh
 %token EOF CURLY_OPEN CURLY_CLOSE SUB SUP SQ_CLOSE NEXT_CELL NEXT_ROW
-%token BEGIN__MATRIX BEGIN_PMATRIX BEGIN_BMATRIX BEGIN_BBMATRIX BEGIN_VMATRIX BEGIN_VVMATRIX
-%token END__MATRIX END_PMATRIX END_BMATRIX END_BBMATRIX END_VMATRIX END_VVMATRIX
+%token BEGIN__MATRIX BEGIN_PMATRIX BEGIN_BMATRIX BEGIN_BBMATRIX BEGIN_VMATRIX BEGIN_VVMATRIX BEGIN_CASES
+%token END__MATRIX END_PMATRIX END_BMATRIX END_BBMATRIX END_VMATRIX END_VVMATRIX END_CASES
+%token LEFT RIGHT

 %type <Tex.t list> tex_expr
 %start tex_expr
@@ -43,7 +46,7 @@
 litsq_dq:
     litsq_zq SUB lit		{ $1,$3 }
 litsq_zq:
-  | SQ_CLOSE 			{ TEX_LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"]", "]")) }
+  | SQ_CLOSE 			{ TEX_LITERAL sq_close_ri }
 expr_nosqc:
     /* */			{ [] }
   | lit_aq expr_nosqc		{ $1 :: $2 }
@@ -59,8 +62,17 @@
     lit SUP lit			{ $1,$3 }
 lit_dq:
     lit SUB lit			{ $1,$3 }
+left:
+    LEFT DELIMITER		{ $2 }
+  | LEFT SQ_CLOSE		{ sq_close_ri }
+right:
+    RIGHT DELIMITER		{ $2 }
+  | RIGHT SQ_CLOSE		{ sq_close_ri }
 lit:
     LITERAL			{ TEX_LITERAL $1 }
+  | DELIMITER			{ TEX_LITERAL $1 }
+  | BIG DELIMITER		{ TEX_BIG ($1,$2) }
+  | left expr right		{ TEX_LR ($1,$3,$2) }
   | FUN_AR1 lit			{ TEX_FUN1($1,$2) }
   | FUN_AR1hl lit		{ let t,h=$1 in TEX_FUN1hl(t,h,$2) }
   | FUN_AR1hf lit		{ let t,h=$1 in TEX_FUN1hf(t,h,$2) }
@@ -80,6 +92,7 @@
   | BEGIN_BBMATRIX matrix END_BBMATRIX	{ TEX_MATRIX ("Bmatrix", $2) }
   | BEGIN_VMATRIX  matrix END_VMATRIX	{ TEX_MATRIX ("vmatrix", $2) }
   | BEGIN_VVMATRIX matrix END_VVMATRIX	{ TEX_MATRIX ("Vmatrix", $2) }
+  | BEGIN_CASES    matrix END_CASES	{ TEX_MATRIX ("cases", $2) }
 matrix:
     line			{ [$1] }
   | line NEXT_ROW matrix	{ $1::$3 }
diff -ruN math.orig/tex.mli math/tex.mli
--- math.orig/tex.mli	2002-12-26 22:33:02.000000000 +0100
+++ math/tex.mli	2003-03-07 17:02:35.000000000 +0100
@@ -4,7 +4,9 @@
     | TEX_FQ of t * t * t
     | TEX_DQ of t * t
     | TEX_UQ of t * t
+    | TEX_LR of Render_info.t * Render_info.t * t list
     | TEX_BOX of string * string
+    | TEX_BIG of string * Render_info.t
     | TEX_FUN1 of string * t
     | TEX_FUN2 of string * t * t
     | TEX_INFIX of string * t list * t list
diff -ruN math.orig/texutil.ml math/texutil.ml
--- math.orig/texutil.ml	2003-02-02 04:16:07.000000000 +0100
+++ math/texutil.ml	2003-03-07 17:04:08.000000000 +0100
@@ -26,7 +26,9 @@
   | TEX_INFIX (s,ll,rl) -> "{" ^ (mapjoin render_tex ll) ^ " " ^ s ^ "" ^ (mapjoin render_tex rl) ^ "}"
   | TEX_INFIXh (s,_,ll,rl) -> "{" ^ (mapjoin render_tex ll) ^ " " ^ s ^ "" ^ (mapjoin render_tex rl) ^ "}"
   | TEX_BOX (bt,s) -> "{"^bt^"{" ^ s ^ "}}"
+  | TEX_BIG (bt,d) -> "{"^bt^(tex_part d)^"}"
   | TEX_MATRIX (t,rows) -> "{\\begin{"^t^"}"^(mapjoine "\\\\" (mapjoine "&" (mapjoin render_tex)) rows)^"\\end{"^t^"}}"
+  | TEX_LR (l,r,tl) -> "\\left "^(tex_part l)^(mapjoin render_tex tl)^"\\right "^(tex_part r)

 (* Dynamic loading*)
 type encoding_t = LATIN1 | LATIN2 | UTF8
@@ -134,18 +136,18 @@
     | "\\longmapsto"       -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\longmapsto ", "→"))
     | "\\Longleftarrow"    -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Longleftarrow ", "⇐"))
     | "\\Longrightarrow"   -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Longrightarrow ", "⇒"))
-    | "\\uarr"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM (FONT_UF,  "\\uparrow ", "↑"))
-    | "\\uparrow"          -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM (FONT_UF,  "\\uparrow ", "↑"))
-    | "\\uArr"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Uparrow ", "⇑"))
-    | "\\Uarr"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Uparrow ", "⇑"))
-    | "\\Uparrow"          -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Uparrow ", "⇑"))
-    | "\\darr"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM (FONT_UF,  "\\downarrow ", "↓"))
-    | "\\downarrow"        -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM (FONT_UF,  "\\downarrow ", "↓"))
-    | "\\dArr"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Downarrow ", "⇓"))
-    | "\\Darr"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Downarrow ", "⇓"))
-    | "\\Downarrow"        -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Downarrow ", "⇓"))
-    | "\\updownarrow"      -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\updownarrow ")
-    | "\\Updownarrow"      -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\Updownarrow ")
+    | "\\uarr"             -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLEM (FONT_UF,  "\\uparrow ", "↑"))
+    | "\\uparrow"          -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLEM (FONT_UF,  "\\uparrow ", "↑"))
+    | "\\uArr"             -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Uparrow ", "⇑"))
+    | "\\Uarr"             -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Uparrow ", "⇑"))
+    | "\\Uparrow"          -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Uparrow ", "⇑"))
+    | "\\darr"             -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLEM (FONT_UF,  "\\downarrow ", "↓"))
+    | "\\downarrow"        -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLEM (FONT_UF,  "\\downarrow ", "↓"))
+    | "\\dArr"             -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Downarrow ", "⇓"))
+    | "\\Darr"             -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Downarrow ", "⇓"))
+    | "\\Downarrow"        -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\Downarrow ", "⇓"))
+    | "\\updownarrow"      -> DELIMITER (TEX_ONLY "\\updownarrow ")
+    | "\\Updownarrow"      -> DELIMITER (TEX_ONLY "\\Updownarrow ")
     | "\\leftrightarrow"   -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\leftrightarrow ", "↔"))
     | "\\lrarr"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\leftrightarrow ", "↔"))
     | "\\harr"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE  (FONT_UF,  "\\leftrightarrow ", "↔"))
@@ -219,8 +221,13 @@
     | "\\tanh"	           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\tanh ","tanh"))
     | "\\sec"	           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\sec ","sec"))
     | "\\csc"	           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\csc ","csc"))
-    | "\\arcsin"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\arcsin ", "arcsin"))
+    | "\\arcsin"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\arcsin ","arcsin"))
     | "\\arctan"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\arctan ","arctan"))
+    | "\\arccos"           -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\mathop{\\mathrm{arccos}}","arccos")))
+    | "\\arccot"           -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\mathop{\\mathrm{arccot}}","arccot")))
+    | "\\arcsec"           -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\mathop{\\mathrm{arcsec}}","arcsec")))
+    | "\\arccsc"           -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\mathop{\\mathrm{arccsc}}","arccsc")))
+    | "\\sgn"              -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\mathop{\\mathrm{sgn}}","sgn")))
     | "\\cot"	           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\cot ","cot"))
     | "\\coth"	           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\coth ","coth"))
     | "\\log"	           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH,"\\log ", "log"))
@@ -258,12 +265,12 @@
     | "\\subseteq"         -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\subseteq ", "⊆"))
     | "\\perp"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\perp ", "⊥"))
     | "\\bot"              -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\bot ", "⊥"))
-    | "\\lfloor"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\lfloor ", "⌊"))
-    | "\\rfloor"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\rfloor ", "⌋"))
-    | "\\lceil"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\lceil ", "⌈"))
-    | "\\rceil"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\rceil ", "⌉"))
-    | "\\lbrace"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH, "\\lbrace ", "{"))
-    | "\\rbrace"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH, "\\rbrace ", "}"))
+    | "\\lfloor"           -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\lfloor ", "⌊"))
+    | "\\rfloor"           -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\rfloor ", "⌋"))
+    | "\\lceil"            -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\lceil ", "⌈"))
+    | "\\rceil"            -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\rceil ", "⌉"))
+    | "\\lbrace"           -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH, "\\lbrace ", "{"))
+    | "\\rbrace"           -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLEC(FONT_UFH, "\\rbrace ", "}"))
     | "\\infty"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UF,  "\\infty ", "∞"))
     | "\\infin"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UF,  "\\infty ", "∞"))
     | "\\isin"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\in ", "∈"))
@@ -283,7 +290,7 @@
     | "\\Im"               -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\Im ", "ℑ"))
     | "\\image"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF,  "\\Im ", "ℑ"))
     | "\\prime"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\prime ", "′"))
-    | "\\backslash"        -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\backslash ", "\\"))
+    | "\\backslash"        -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\backslash ", "\\"))
     | "\\setminus"         -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\setminus ", "\\"))
     | "\\times"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\times ", "×"))
     | "\\pm"               -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\pm ", "±"))
@@ -313,12 +320,13 @@
     | "\\dots"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\dots ", "..."))
     | "\\quad" 		   -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\quad ","  "))
     | "\\qquad"		   -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\qquad ","    "))
-    | "\\mid"              -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\mid ", " | "))
+    | "\\mid"              -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\mid ", " | "))
     | "\\neg"              -> LITERAL (HTMLABLEM(FONT_UFH,"\\neg ", "¬"))
-    | "\\langle"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\langle ","⟨"))
-    | "\\rangle"           -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\rangle ","⟩"))
-    | "\\lang"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\langle ","⟨"))
-    | "\\rang"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\rangle ","⟩"))
+    | "\\langle"           -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\langle ","⟨"))
+    | "\\rangle"           -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\rangle ","⟩"))
+    | "\\lang"             -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\langle ","⟨"))
+    | "\\rang"             -> DELIMITER (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\rangle ","⟩"))
+    | "\\ddots"            -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\ddots ")
     | "\\clubs"            -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\clubsuit ")
     | "\\clubsuit"         -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\clubsuit ")
     | "\\spades"           -> LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\spadesuit ")
@@ -341,8 +349,6 @@
     | "\\N"		   -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\mathbb{N}", "N")))
     | "\\lVert"            -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\lVert ", "||")))
     | "\\rVert"            -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UFH,"\\rVert ", "||")))
-    | "\\left"             -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\left ", ""))
-    | "\\right"            -> LITERAL (HTMLABLE (FONT_UF, "\\right ", ""))
     | "\\nmid"             -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\nmid "))
     | "\\lesssim"          -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\lesssim "))
     | "\\ngeq"             -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\ngeq "))
@@ -385,6 +391,8 @@
     | "\\iiint"            -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\iiint "))
     | "\\iiiint"           -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\iiiint "))
     | "\\varnothing"       -> (tex_use_ams (); LITERAL (TEX_ONLY "\\varnothing "))
+    | "\\left"             -> LEFT
+    | "\\right"            -> RIGHT
     | "\\hat"	           -> FUN_AR1 "\\hat "
     | "\\widehat"          -> FUN_AR1 "\\widehat "
     | "\\overline"         -> FUN_AR1 "\\overline "
@@ -409,7 +417,6 @@
     | "\\binom"            -> FUN_AR2 "\\binom "
     | "\\frac"             -> FUN_AR2h ("\\frac ", fun num den -> Html.html_render [num], "
", Html.html_render [den])
     | "\\over"             -> FUN_INFIXh ("\\over ", fun num den -> Html.html_render num, "
", Html.html_render den)
-(* ? *)
     | "\\sqrt"             -> FUN_AR1 "\\sqrt "
     | "\\pmod"             -> FUN_AR1hl ("\\pmod ", ("(mod ", ")"))
     | "\\bmod"             -> FUN_AR1hl ("\\bmod ", ("mod ", ""))
@@ -422,8 +429,13 @@
     | "\\it"               -> DECLh ("\\it ", FONTFORCE_IT)
     | "\\cal"              -> DECL "\\cal "
     | "\\bf"               -> DECL "\\bf "
+    | "\\big"		   -> BIG "\\big "
+    | "\\Big"		   -> BIG "\\Big "
+    | "\\bigg"		   -> BIG "\\bigg "
+    | "\\Bigg"		   -> BIG "\\Bigg "
     | "\\mathit"           -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1hf ("\\mathit ", FONTFORCE_IT))
     | "\\mathrm"           -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1hf ("\\mathrm ", FONTFORCE_RM))
+    | "\\mathop"           -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathop ")
     | "\\boldsymbol"       -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\boldsymbol ")
     | "\\bold"             -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathbf ")
     | "\\Bbb"              -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathbb ")
@@ -433,7 +445,6 @@
     | "\\mathbb"           -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathbb ")
     | "\\mathfrak"         -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\mathfrak ")
     | "\\operatorname"     -> (tex_use_ams (); FUN_AR1 "\\operatorname ")
-(* + *)
     | "\\mbox"             -> raise (Failure "malformatted \\mbox")
     | "\\vbox"             -> raise (Failure "malformatted \\vbox")
     | "\\hbox"             -> raise (Failure "malformatted \\hbox")


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] automatic sysopping

body:
> > JW ---But we really should consider adjusting the software so that it
> > happens automatically.  I want to de-politicize it and de-mystify it.
>
>E.M-  First we need to clean up the undeletion process and keep a log of
page
> protection/unprotection, otherwise things could get messy if a sysop ran
> amok.

I pretty much thought so... doing a couple weeks casual intern time would be
just too easy for a whacker on a mission...  Im all for semi-automation
(software assistance) of crap cleanup, and of course though. -  ??:sv


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>I am seriously considering unilaterally giving sysop rights to everyone on this mailing list:
>
>* whose name and username I recognize
>* who seems to know what they're doing
>* who doesn't seem radically opposed to NPOV
>
>This would be about a dozen or more people, and I'll decide on Monday, so be forewarned: unless you STRENUOUSLY object to yourself or someone else being a sysop, it's gonna happen!
>
Dear Mister Ed:
    Please don't.
    I'm quite happy being sysop on Wiktionary alone, and I have no need
to do this on Wikipedia as well.

Eclecticology


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Legality of internet-encyclopedia.info ?

body:
I have added the suggested language to language.php and it is now reflected
on the edit page.

Fred

> From: Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:49:12 -0800
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org, fredbaud at ctelco.net
> Subject: Legality of internet-encyclopedia.info ?
>
> Is what Fred is doing even legal under the GNU FDL? All he is doing is
> mentioning in the first edit summary where the article came from - there is
> no mention of its source in the article itself.
>
> Doesn't our implementation of the GNU FDL require a link-back to the source
> Wikipedia article and a mention of the source in the article?
>
> IMO each article that is based on a Wikipedia article should have the
> following section at the end:
>
> ==Reference==
> *Text adapted from [http://www.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Wikipedia_article |
> Wikipedia]. Copied on {insert date that the content was copied here}
>
> --Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
>
> WikiKarma
> The Usual at [[March 5]]


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please stop fabricating claims of racist segregation

body:
I already am having problems with Susan_Mason, who has
falsely and ridiculously accused me of bigotry against
Chinese people.  Now, however, Stevertigo has made the same
slanderous innuendo against me by saying that I am
promoting "segregation" of languages! That is more than
uncalled for, it is hateful.

I would like to add my voice to those others here who
disagree with the use of Chinese characters on the English
language discussion pahes.  It is hard to follow the
authors of these discussions when these characters simply
will not show up on many computer screens; when multiple
people use Kanji, the system gets even more out of hand.  I
cannot help but believe that this may actually be part of
the reason Stevertigo is doing this.

Kanji issues aside, I do not deserve to be a victim of such
terrible claims against me. If Stevertigo and Susan Mason
cannot control their incoherent attacks, then I ask that
they remove themselves until they can calm down.

---

Stevertigo writes:
Now, these are the benefits of Kanji in general... Im just
using mine for a sig... Object to it if you will, but I
dont see any basis for it other than "its too inconvenient
to move the mouse over to show me the name the Kanji links
to..." RK and your argument, that using Kanji as an =
embellishment, violates 'the policy of segregation of
languages' doesnt hold water.  Does this mean that you guys
will police the Zhongwen Wiki =
to remove any Engrish or Romanji? Tranculturation is a fact
of life, and the web is speeding this up evidence of
this...

=====
"I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous".
The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Can we ban [[User:Michael]] please?

body:
It might be nice to have it in the software that a sysop can blanket revert
any changes made by Michael... etc... I dont know what form this can take,
but Its taken 15 minutes of my time, Cam's time and TUF's time...
each... -SV


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] META tags

body:
I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.

Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?

Magnus


subject: [WikiEN-l] automatic sysopping

body: Alright. I formally request sysop status. Talk amongst yourselves. -??:Sv


body:
> Robert expounded:
> I already am having problems with Susan_Mason, who has
> falsely and ridiculously accused me of bigotry against
> Chinese people.  Now, however, Stevertigo has made the same
> slanderous innuendo against me by saying that I am
> promoting "segregation" of languages! That is more than
> uncalled for, it is hateful.
>
> I would like to add my voice to those others here who
> disagree with the use of Chinese characters on the English
> language discussion pahes.  It is hard to follow the
> authors of these discussions when these characters simply
> will not show up on many computer screens; when multiple
> people use Kanji, the system gets even more out of hand.  I
> cannot help but believe that this may actually be part of
> the reason Stevertigo is doing this.
>
> Kanji issues aside, I do not deserve to be a victim of such
> terrible claims against me. If Stevertigo and Susan Mason
> cannot control their incoherent attacks, then I ask that
> they remove themselves until they can calm down.
>
Stevertigo writes:
ROFL. --- ??:sv


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: California court ruling  on responsibility for content

body:
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 21:05:45 -0800, Jonathan Walther
<krooger at debian.org> wrote:

>
> More realistic scenario: somone puts something defamatory on.  Another
> person tries to remove it. Rest of Wikipedia dogpiles on person doing
> the removing, forming a "consensus" that the information should remain
> in.  Said person is then banned by Jimbo for his edits.  I think the
> case would be pretty clear that the Wikipedia as a group, and Jimbo
> Wales in particular, had "taken responsibility" for the content at that
> point.
>
It was fairly silly of the person to simply delete rather than raise a
point of discussion.
However, if there is evidence that a discussion has taken place, I guess
that Jonathan is right and that there is some consensus approval of the
material.

Perhaps Wikipedia needs some formal process (a page?) where individuals
concerned can register a complaint that they believe maretial about or
conencted to them to be unfair/defamatory?
--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Christopher Mahan

body:
--- Robert <rkscience100 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I already am having problems with Susan_Mason, who has
> falsely and ridiculously accused me of bigotry against
> Chinese people.  Now, however, Stevertigo has made the same
> slanderous innuendo against me by saying that I am
> promoting "segregation" of languages! That is more than
> uncalled for, it is hateful.

A slanderous innuendo? Where? I missed it? Dang...

> I would like to add my voice to those others here who
> disagree with the use of Chinese characters on the English
> language discussion pahes.  It is hard to follow the
> authors of these discussions when these characters simply
> will not show up on many computer screens; when multiple
> people use Kanji, the system gets even more out of hand.  I
> cannot help but believe that this may actually be part of
> the reason Stevertigo is doing this.

The fact that he signs his posts with a hard-to-duplicate sig, one
that most likely happens to be the exact' legal rentition of his
birth name, lead me to believe that in fact is his intent that his
post not be confused for any one else's. Whodathunk?

> Kanji issues aside, I do not deserve to be a victim of such
> terrible claims against me. If Stevertigo and Susan Mason
> cannot control their incoherent attacks, then I ask that
> they remove themselves until they can calm down.

Kanji being the primary element of the written language of the second
largest world economy, of a technologically advanced and pionering
nation where the internet is concerned, and the official writ of 140
million people, I dare say that blaming people for using it is
narror-sighted at best.

As far as removing themselves until they calm down, I think the
expression is self-prophetic more than anything. ;)

On a more serious note, Robert, how would you feel if the Internet
had been createdn by the Soviets, and the ligua franca was Russian,
and the script was cyrillic, would you not want to sign your own name
the way your parents meant for you to rather than with less-than
perfect cyrillic approximations?

Hoping to make this a better place,

Sincerely,

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Serious problems with an anon user

body:
Sascha Noyes wrote:

> 2) 55 also made a few really bad quality POV edits of other peoples news
> stories (witness:
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Current_events&diff=728646&oldid
=728640
> and
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Current_events&diff=728668&oldid
=728664)

I haven't followed this argument, but I feel I need to make a couple of
quick points:

The first of these edits was not by 128.193.88.55, it was by another anon
user (209.147.208.22).  55's edit was the one after this (removing the
exclamation marks).

The second edit above was reverted by 128.193.88.55 him/herself. four
minutes after the original edit.

I think the removal of "(Fidel Castro) is already the world's longest ruling
[[head of government]], in power for 44 years." is valid.  It makes it sound
as though he is the longest *ever* serving head of government, which I doubt
is true (although I don't know for sure either way, or whether he is the
longest serving *current* head of government)

sannse


subject: [Wikitech-l] META tags

body:
On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 12:36:03PM -0600, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > (Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de>):
> > I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
> > we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
> > the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.
> >
> > Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?
>
> "META" tags are all but useless, and only useful at all if they
> are carefully created by human evaluation and judgment.  Any
> attempt to create automatic ones is not likely to produce any
> meaningful result.

That's not true !
Lot of search engines rely on meta tags.
The only search engine we get lot of traffic from is Google
(which ignores META tags). The rest are almost ignoring us
and this is one of reasons.


from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: internet-encyclopedia.info

body:
Stevertigo wrote:

>>For that matter, there might be different wikipedias devoted to
>>specialized topics: e.g., a "litipedia" devoted to literature, or a
>>"medipedia" devoted to medical information.
>>
>>I'm not saying this has to happen or that it should happen, but I
>>don't think there's any reason to assume that it *can't*.
>>
>>
>
>Ah, the "victim of its own success syndrome" rears its ugly head at
>Wikipedia...-Stevertigo
>
>
>
>
it could come in handy.
next time we have a violent NPOV edit war, direct the participants to
the IE (lousy acronym!), and let them work on two separate POV articles.
Then a committed NPOV wikipedian can come along & cream off some sort of
synthesis of the opposing POVs.

Still... if it's not NPOV...

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml?title=Religion

;-)


subject: [WikiEN-l] enough with the chinese character names!

body:
Now BOTH Stevertigo AND Goatasaur seem to have these.
Of course, I can't tell -- they just show as "??" on my screen.

Please go back to usual signatures, guys. And go clean up the existing
ones. It was amusing while it lasted, but joke over

-- tarquin

>
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] META tags

body:
On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 02:04:54PM -0600, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> That's one reason why Google is the only search engine that
> matters; they discovered long ago that META tags provided no
> useful information, so they evaluated pages on their own.

Some people use Google, others use different search engines.
Just because you don't use them doesn't mean they don't matter.

> Information is only useful when it is honest and accurate.

Information is almost never completely honest nd accurate.

> Because search-engine rankings are economically valuable, the
> natural incentive is to manipulate the self-descriptive
> information in META tags to achieve the result, rather than
> making them honest and accurate.  Because of that, search
> engines that use META tags rank highly those who are most
> adept at manipulation, not those of most real value.
>
> I would not oppose some means of allowing authors to add META
> tags that were honest and accurate and based on human judgment.
> But if we created META tags by some automated process just to
> get higher rankings on search engines that still use them,
> then we would be guilty of manipulation just as other
> advertisers are.

I'd use titles of pages linking to given article as meta keywords
(if there are too many, get most important of them) and first
paragraph or two (if first paragraph is too short) as meta description.

Programs should do that ! Humans aren't good at dealing with
big amounts of data.


subject: [Wikitech-l] META tags

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> I guess my question is: what's the downside?  What's the harm?

The only thing would be that the HTML gets a little longer, as there's
more information to transport.

As search engines are not logged in, and the META tags contain no
information that would be displayed, we could add META tags for anons
only, so logged-in users won't get the META tags.

Magnus


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
Ed,

I would also oppose giving out random sysop to everyone who posts here. Our
most recently banned contributor, Clutch, was also a frequent poster on this
list. Would that have made him a sysop too?

Danny
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subject: [WikiEN-l] What google likes

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:
> --- Tom Parmenter <tompar at world.std.com> wrote:
>
>>I imagine many of us (most of us?) first encountered the wikipedia
>>in
>>a google search.  I know I did.
>
>
> Surprisingly I didn't.
>
> I was briefly involved in the GNU-Encyclopedia discussion in Jan
> 2001. (still have those pages on my website).
> http://www.christophermahan.com/gne/

That's how I came to it as well! Ah, remember the good old times, when
we were *only* discussing how to do such a project, instead of writing
articles ;-)

Magnus


subject: [WikiEN-l] The issue has been resolved

body:
Sascha Noyes wrote:

>It has been resolved rather amically, although I'm left with a rather bad
>aftertaste about nobody but myself (and Tarquin a bit) making a principled
>stand against users deleting other users signed comments. When I first joined
>I got the impression that certain users were even banned for this behaviour,
>
users were banned for *repeatedly* doing this, and putting words into
other people's mouths.
It seems to me that IP user thought the Vandalism page worked on a wiki
principle like the articles -- ie "false alert, I'm not a vandal, so
I'll remove it."

I'm glad its resolved. :-)

Let's be a bit slower to accuse vandalism in cases other than the
obvious "poop", "this site sux" etc.

(hang on ... I'm Uncle Ed! Why am I trapped inside Tarquin's body?)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Asian Characters

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>I am tempted to say that foreign characters showing up in people's
>sig would go a long way in demonstrating that the W is international.
>
>As a compromise, I would say that those who prefer to write their
>name in their native script should be allowed to do so, bet should
>also put the english version in parenthesis if they are meaning their
>post for an international audience.
>
>
>

I *like* foreign characters. I can't read them, but I feel about them
pretty much like Hofstadter does (in /Metamagical Themas/).
but if several users start signing with them, most of us can't
distinguish between them (yet). and if on most systems they're just "??" ...

bilingual signing is an excellent compromise. :-)

>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: lists

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Jesse Alter wrote:
>
>> Actually...
>> Come to think of it, that's how I did encounter Wikipedia. It was a
>> *gasp* list article! I was searching for a list of Spanish monarchs.
>>
> Intersting point in support of lists.  Some of us and many users often
> have very specific factual questions like "Who was king of Spain in
> 1285?" and we would prefer finding that bit of information quickly and
> easily without wading through a lot of text.

[[list of Spanish monarchs]] is a *timeline*, not a list...


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] META tags

body:
> I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
> we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
> the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.

> Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?

Seems reasonable, but the algorithm should only pick the first 20 links or
so (some pages have hundreds of links). Perhaps it could be made a little
smarter, counting the frequency of each link and using the most frequent
ones, but I don't really know how common duplicate links are.

Also, at most 500 bytes of the first para should be used.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikitech-l] META tags

body:
> I would not oppose some means of allowing authors to add META
> tags that were honest and accurate and based on human judgment.
> But if we created META tags by some automated process just to
> get higher rankings on search engines that still use them,
> then we would be guilty of manipulation just as other
> advertisers are.

The process of adding links to an article is a lot like selecting
keywords:

        Stephen King is a [[horror]] [[author]] ...

Not using this information to make life easier for some search engines
seems like a waste. On the other hand, I doubt that other search engines
than Google really matter nowadays, and I agree that meta tags depend a
lot on honesty, which makes them notoriously unreliable.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] automatic sysopping

body:
> Yeah, Ed, you probably shouldn't do that if people don't like the
> idea.

> But we really should consider adjusting the software so that it
> happens automatically.  I want to de-politicize it and de-mystify it.

First we need to clean up the undeletion process and keep a log of page
protection/unprotection, otherwise things could get messy if a sysop ran
amok.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Lee Pilich

subject: [WikiEN-l] Can we ban [[User:Michael]] please?

body:
[[User:Michael]], after adding a load of apparent nonsense to the
[[Slayer]] article, is now doing the same at [[Crass]], where he is also
making up comments on the talk page and attributing them to others. He's
also adding entries to the various Grammy award winners list pages which
don't seem to tally with what's on the Grammy website (though it could just
be that I'm not using their search function properly). I've tried to leave
him a note on his talk page and be civil about it, but it was deleted with
no response.

I'd like him to be banned. He may well return under a different name, but
it's got to be worth a go.

lp (camembert)
WikiKarma: cleaning up after this chap


body:
About [[User:Michael]], I wrote:

>I'd like him to be banned. He may well return under a different name, but
>it's got to be worth a go.

In fact, this seems to be the same chap who a while ago made a stack of
inexplicable [[Year in MTV]] pages - nobody knew what they were for, and
after asking him if he could explain to no response, they were deleted.
He's been around for a while. He seems determined, so it might be best to
*not* ban him so as to keep all his user contributions in the one place.
They'll be easier to revert that way.

But maybe that's too clever, I don't know.

lp (camembert)
"A finished work is exactly that, requires resurrection." --John Cage


subject:
[Wikitech-l] How to make myself a sysop or developer on my implementation of
 wikipedia3

body:
On my implimentation of the Wikipedia3 software at
http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml

I can access via a control panel for field name user_rights which I could
edit:

Field parameters
Field name
Data type    tinyblob
Allow nulls?     Yes  No
Default value
Part of primary key?     Yes  No

Table user in database wikidb
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Field name     Type      Allow nulls?    Key    Default value    Extras
   ?    ?
user_rights    tinyblob    No            None

What should I put in the cell user_rights for myself to make myself (or
someone else) either a sysop or developer.

Or is there some other way and something I am missing?

Fred    ?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
> For the reasons he's stated himself, I STRONGLY feel that >Stevertigo
should
> not be a sysop.
>
Well, now I cant think of any more reasons not to be one Vicki. Perhaps, now
you can share with the merry throng your own reasons unless you already
have - certainly you have some. :]  -??sv


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: Sysop Requests

body:
On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 13:05:36 -0500,
<rednblack at alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>
> Please don't do this, Ed. Many of us have our own reasons for not wanting
> to be sysops. If we wanted to be sysops, we would ask.
>
And some of us don't feel experienced enough! Hell, I can't even manage to
consistently post with the correct email address (blame the software!)

--
Richard Grevers


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
> Vicki penned: Reason the first is that you said you didn't want it. That
in itself
> should
> have
> been sufficient, but is no longer relevant.

Maybe.

> Reason the second was your stated unwillingness to moderate your tone.

Ah2. You misread me. 'Moderate' in that context meant "censor" - But I
realize now that self-censorship is not required - Beyond the "usual" :"when
I catch myself thinking bigoted things" - ;)

> Reason for saying "STRONGLY" in all-caps was that Ed's message suggested
> that a mild, straightforward "don't do this" would be ignored.

Ah3. Now I ?berunderstand. Thanks.- ??sv


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: My name in Japanese and Korean (was: enough with the chinese character names!)

body:
On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:37:56 -0500, Poor, Edmund W
<Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:

> What's wrong with Asian characters?
>
The fact that not everybody can view them?
Although unicode support is increasing steadily, not everyone wants to
support multi-megabyte fonts on their machine. (and in fact you are
required to own a valid MS-Office or MS publisher license to obtain many of
them). I once installed Arial Unicode MS on an old, slow machine, and it
had a visible impact on system performance.
Or in the case of IE users, not everyone wants to download and install vast
OS patches to add "support".
Perhaps I should create a sig using Cherokee or Ethiopic glyphs. AFAIK,
only Mozilla and Opera users with code2000 or code2001 fonts installed will
be able to see them.

There is also the point that even if you can view them, occidental users do
not have the culturally-induced brain patterings to quickly distinguish
between CJK ideographs. So once there are a dozen or so users signing with
them it becomes rather difficult for many people to identify them.

Lastly - I can quickly type user:dramatic in a searchbox or URL, but unless
I have an IME installed, about the only means I have of entering a CJK
character is to locate it amongst a couple of thousand others in unibook
(how many people have that installed?) or the NT/2k/XP version of charmap.
--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Giskart

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: META tags

body:
Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote in
news:3E68DCED.3060104 at web.de:

> I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
> we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
> the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.
>
> Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?
>
> Magnus

If it is done, please also include the LANG="XX" tag . So language specific
search engines can find them better.

And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4 minutes?

--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


body:
Stevertigo wrote:

>It might be nice to have it in the software that a sysop can blanket revert
>any changes made by Michael... etc... I dont know what form this can take,
>but Its taken 15 minutes of my time, Cam's time and TUF's time...
>each... -SV
>
Having to clean up these things is a fact of life, letting this be done
by automation seems to be a cure that's worse than the disease.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: META tags

body:
Pedro M.V. wrote:

>>And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4 minutes?
>>
>
>The user could mark the box about it in Preferences. So, no problem. Better, a good thing ;)
>
This doesn't seem like a good idea.  It seems to me that it would stress
the server for things that one doesn't really need.  A person who goes
to dinner for an hour with the recent changes page open will have
uselessly sought to refresh 15 times.

Ec


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
At 08:24 AM 3/8/03 -0800, Stevertigo wrote:
> > For the reasons he's stated himself, I STRONGLY feel that >Stevertigo
>should
> > not be a sysop.
> >
>Well, now I cant think of any more reasons not to be one Vicki. Perhaps, now
>you can share with the merry throng your own reasons unless you already
>have - certainly you have some.

Reason the first is that you said you didn't want it. That in itself should
have
been sufficient, but is no longer relevant.

Reason the second was your stated unwillingness to moderate your tone.

Reason for saying "STRONGLY" in all-caps was that Ed's message suggested
that a mild, straightforward "don't do this" would be ignored.

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


body:
On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 17:03:34 -0700, Fred Bauder
<fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> Definitely a fork. Internet-Encyclopedia is an implementation of the
> wikipedia3 software that has different policies from Wikipedia. For
> example,
> rather than one article from a NPOV, Internet-Encyclopedia will have
> several
> articles from different points of view on a controverial subject. Also
> Internet-Encyclopedia is written in American English. There will also be
> more tolerance of material that Wikipedia editors would reject as
> creative
> or otherwise objectionable because of point of view, lack of scientific
> consensus, or simply shortness. Generally a much more relaxed attitude
> will
> be worked for (although what one gets in that department will depend on
> folks adopting one).

Then may I humbly suggest that you replace the work "Encyclopedia" (Circle
of Human Knowledge") with a word or phrase that reflects a "Circle of Human
Opinion". If you are rejecting the concept of "what is known to be true by
the best means available to us at this time" then surely you ought to
reject the name we use for that?

--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
For months and months we've talked about revamping the article count
system, but nothing's changed. The article count is still an extension
of the "comma count" used to filter out empty articles in a search back
in the UseMod days.

Currently, a page is counted as an "article" for "we have X articles"
purposes if it is:
  * in the article namespace (so excludes talk pages, user
    pages, Wikipedia: help and utility pages)
  * not a redirect
  * contains a comma (!)

Now, we are well aware that page-count fever has gripped Wikipedia for
some time. The obsession with breaking the 100,000-page barrier on the
English stifled any implementation of reforms for fear of reducing the
count. Concerns about languages which don't use the ASCII comma
character have been shrugged off. Well, today I've seen enough.

While the English wiki has galumphed along for ages, secure in its place
as The World's Largest Damn Wiki, the smaller languages are in intense
(though friendly) competition with one another for runner-up positions.
"In real life," Youssefsan tells me, "people look for economic growth;
here for page growth. Both use 'creative accounting.'"

On the francophone Wikipedia, we have been exposed as the slaves to the
comma count that we all are but are ashamed to admit. See:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=CULTe&action=edit&oldid=33814

(Those who have trouble with my PGP-signed mail, go to fr.wikipedia.org,
look up article 'CULTe', and hit 'Modifier cette page'.)

Yes that's right, people have started adding commas as hidden comments
just to increase the stupid comma count. NO MORE, I say! Ils ne
passeront pas!

Unless a better count system is proposed, I will replace the comma check
with a greater-than-zero-size check within twelve hours.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] How to make myself a sysop or developer on my implementation of wikipedia3

body:
On Sat, Mar 08, 2003 at 06:26:00AM -0700, Fred Bauder wrote:
> On my implimentation of the Wikipedia3 software at
> http://www.internet-encyclopedia.info/wiki.phtml
>
> I can access via a control panel for field name user_rights which I could
> edit:
>
> Field parameters
> Field name
> Data type    tinyblob
> Allow nulls?     Yes  No
> Default value
> Part of primary key?     Yes  No
>
> Table user in database wikidb
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Field name     Type      Allow nulls?    Key    Default value    Extras
>    ?    ?
> user_rights    tinyblob    No            None
>
> What should I put in the cell user_rights for myself to make myself (or
> someone else) either a sysop or developer.

You should put "sysop" there to become a sysop.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Unless a better count system is proposed, I will replace the comma check
>with a greater-than-zero-size check within twelve hours.
>
I agree with the proposal, but would make the size threshhold a little
bigger to deal with those articles which were essentially deleted but
have really been left with residual spaces or other junk.  Although the
shortest article list for English is not available at the moment I did
look at this function for the other languages.  The longest "article"
that I found that way was at "Brakiopodo" in the Esperanto Wikipedia.
 It contains only 4 hyphens.  The shortest article that I found with
what could most remotely accepted as content was at 7 in more than one
language.  This suggests that the greater-than-size check might be set
at 4, 5, or 6.

BTW the Esperanto Wikipedia seems to have the greatest number of zero
length articles.

Eclecticology


from_name: Pedro M.V.

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: META tags

body:
>
> And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4 minutes?

The user could mark the box about it in Preferences. So, no problem. Better, a good thing ;)

Regards.


body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] limit of edits for anonymous users

> Limits on number of edits or timed warning messages are a bad idea.
> Editing without an account is a legitimate choice, and we should not annoy
> people into creating one. However,
>

I agree with you. Wiki means people working together and perhaps in the beginning ( sometimes you are not wellcome ) one prefer to be anonymous user.

Regards.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Death to the comma count!

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> BTW the Esperanto Wikipedia seems to have the greatest number of zero
> length articles.

A while ago we had a guy come in and add a zillion pages consisting of
externally-linked images with little or no text, and no reference as to
copyright status or permission for use. After some yakking, we got him
to peacefully retract them. Those that never had any text are thus left
empty until they get either filled out or deleted outright.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Axel Boldt

subject: Stevertigo sysop? (was: [WikiEN-l] automatic sysopping)

body:
--- Stevertigo <stevertigo at attbi.com> wrote:
> Alright. I formally request sysop status. Talk amongst yourselves.
> -??????:Sv

Opposed. Reasons: low-quality and irritating edits in the past, an
obvious delight in contributing to controversies, and an incoherent
style of arguing.

Axel

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: META tags

body:
"Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar> wrote in
news:000601c2e57d$e2c79ac0$ac5ecb51 at megavia:

>>
>> And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4
>> minutes?
>
> The user could mark the box about it in Preferences. So, no problem.
> Better, a good thing ;)
>
> Regards.

Why should that be yet a again a other option?
A option only for this seems silly.

Soon there will be a need for a "basic user preferences" and "advanced user
preferences"

--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


from_name: Stevertigo

body:
Opposed. Reasons: low-quality and irritating edits in the past, an
obvious delight in contributing to controversies, and an incoherent
style of arguing.

Axel

The [[Aids Kills Fags Dead]] Article? Is that the one youre referring to
Axel?
Indeed. -??sv


body:
>Tarquin complained:
>"so he's just *interpreted* his name into Hanji, and got eveyone wound up
in ?>the process. arrete de faire l'interessant!"

People do what they want, provided nobodys feelins get hurt. I agreed to the
compromise Chris suggested and you echoed... hence the "sv." Problem?

Thats two 'good' reasons against. Anyone else? -??:sv

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
0>But could you now go round and tell ALL the other users who have
>imitated you to stick to the same compromise?
>do what you want, but clean up the mess please

I told Goat. I didnt know I had a larger 'following'..  Ill see what I can
do. -Stevertigo


body:
>Vicki quipped:
>And, if I read it right, used "Christian" to mean "English".

Look, nearly every Westernized name has a "meaning," often rooted in
Judeo-Christian mythos... Steven means 'Crowned' - Vicki means something
else, I used to know what Danny meant, "Michael" might stand for 'pain in
the butt'.. but I digress...

Translating phonetics into a language that doesnt have Germanic/ Latin
phonetics is problematic. The S(sibilant)T(plosive) combination isnt found
in phonetic renderings of Kanji... Japanese would change it to 'Si-de' or
'Sa-ti-va' .. in Chinese 'Shi-ben' ... Korean, I dunno. Any translation to
Kanji requires a choice between the meaning or the phonetic.. Some do both
but...

Since most westernized names have long lost their original 'meaning' - Any
record of such meaning assigned to such name becomes relevant, should
"meaning" become relevant.  Entiendes? -  ??:sv


body:
>Victoria scribed: Si, entiendo muy bien. Como se dice en japonesa
"vertigo"?

>My name is a diminutive of "Victoria", so it means "victorious", and my
>last name means "rose branch".

Ay, que bueno.- here is the Hanji for your name : ???(Victory+Rose+Branch) -
Many blessings upon ye and yir progeny. ??:sv


body:
>Danny = "Gift of God" or "God has judged me". In my case it is the former, >but I also got the name because my parents really liked Danny Kaye ... but I >digress ...

Hehe... I think that also dates you... Danny Kaye.. Hmm... circa '62?- ??:sv
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from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop Requests

body:
On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> I am seriously considering unilaterally giving sysop rights to everyone on
> this mailing list:
>
> * whose name and username I recognize
> * who seems to know what they're doing
> * who doesn't seem radically opposed to NPOV
>
> This would be about a dozen or more people, and I'll decide on Monday, so
> be forewarned: unless you STRENUOUSLY object to yourself or someone else
> being a sysop, it's gonna happen!
>
Well, to make your choices easier, Ed, I'm going to decline this responsibility
for the time being. (Assuming that I fit one of the catagories you set out.;)
Right now I don't have enough time to contribute the content I'd like to
provide to Wikipedia, let alone discharge sysop duties for enough time during
the day to make any sort of difference.

Not that I wouldn't eventually like them. (I've wanted to put links to one or
two articles on the front page over the last couple of months.) But unlike
many people here -- & perhaps uniquely -- I see sysop rights as a responsibility,
& not as a ``right." I may have acquired this opinion because I have root
``rights" on a few computers over the years, which have sometimes resulted
with a lack of sleep & angry cow-orkers.

Geoff (aka llywrch)


body:
At 12:51 AM 3/9/03 +0000, you wrote:

>Axel Boldt wrote:
>
>>--- Stevertigo <stevertigo at attbi.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Alright. I formally request sysop status. Talk amongst yourselves.
>>>-??}?S?:Sv
>>>
>>
>>Opposed. Reasons: low-quality and irritating edits in the past, an
>>obvious delight in contributing to controversies, and an incoherent
>>style of arguing.
>>
>>
>And creating this daft bandwagon of EVERYONE signing in foreign scripts.
>
>Christopher Mahan wrote:
>>As a compromise, I would say that those who prefer to write their
>name in their native script should be allowed to do so
>
>but as far as I can tell, Stevertigo's name is *Steven*  -- from his user
>page:
>
>
>??  "Crowned" + "dizzy" (/Crowned is the Christian meaning for Steven/)
>so he's just *interpreted* his name into Hanji, and got eveyone wound up
>in the process.
>arrete de faire l'interessant!
And, if I read it right, used "Christian" to mean "English".
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: META tags

body:
Giskart wrote:
Soon there will be a need for a "basic user preferences" and "advanced user
> preferences"

No, but a new special page "Recent changes toys" ;-)

If we change the standard behaviour of Recent Changes, some people want
a user option to change it back!

Also, a hundred unwatched Recent Pages auto-refreshing every few minutes
might increase server load quite a bit.

Magnus


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] My name in Japanese and Korean (was: enough with the chinese character names!)

body:
It would help if I could see them.

Ed Poor wrote:
>What's wrong with Asian characters?
>
>?? ?? aka ?? ??
>

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


subject: [WikiEN-l] a more "confident" username

body:
I switched my username from anonymous56789 to LittleDan. Now do I have a
chance at becomming an admin?

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


body:
At 05:21 PM 3/8/03 -0800, you wrote:
> >Vicki quipped:
> >And, if I read it right, used "Christian" to mean "English".
>
>Look, nearly every Westernized name has a "meaning," often rooted in
>Judeo-Christian mythos... Steven means 'Crowned' -

And neither "crowned" nor "Steven" is inherently Christian. Many
cultures and religions crown people.

>Vicki means something
>else, I used to know what Danny meant, "Michael" might stand for 'pain in
>the butt'.. but I digress...
>
>Translating phonetics into a language that doesnt have Germanic/ Latin
>phonetics is problematic. The S(sibilant)T(plosive) combination isnt found
>in phonetic renderings of Kanji... Japanese would change it to 'Si-de' or
>'Sa-ti-va' .. in Chinese 'Shi-ben' ... Korean, I dunno. Any translation to
>Kanji requires a choice between the meaning or the phonetic.. Some do both
>but...
>
>Since most westernized names have long lost their original 'meaning' - Any
>record of such meaning assigned to such name becomes relevant, should
>"meaning" become relevant.  Entiendes? -  ??????:sv

Si, entiendo muy bien. Como se dice en japonesa "vertigo"?

My name is a diminutive of "Victoria", so it means "victorious", and my
last name means "rose branch".

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


body:
In a message dated 3/8/2003 8:24:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
stevertigo at attbi.com writes:

> Look, nearly every Westernized name has a "meaning," often rooted in
> Judeo-Christian mythos... Steven means 'Crowned' - Vicki means something
> else, I used to know what Danny meant, "Michael" might stand for 'pain in
> the butt'.. but I digress...
>
>

Danny = "Gift of God" or "God has judged me". In my case it is the former,
but I also got the name because my parents really liked Danny Kaye ... but I
digress ...
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from_name: Zoe

body:
And just a general incoherence that verges on the obsessive.
Zoe
 Axel Boldt <axelboldt at yahoo.com> wrote:--- Stevertigo wrote:
> Alright. I formally request sysop status. Talk amongst yourselves.
> -??????:Sv

Opposed. Reasons: low-quality and irritating edits in the past, an
obvious delight in contributing to controversies, and an incoherent
style of arguing.

Axel

__________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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---------------------------------
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Interlanguage links at test site

body:
On Thu, 2003-03-06 at 03:37, Magnus Manske wrote:
> I have reinstalled my interlanguage management at test.wikipedia.org.

For the curious, I have disabled it for now as it was returning a "No
database selected" error.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] New texvc

body:
On Fri, 2003-03-07 at 08:17, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> Database format, format of communication between PHP and texvc and
> PHP code is not touched. Upgrade shouldn't bring any problems.
> ...
> Please update test.wikipedia.org,

Done, please test.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [Wikitech-l] How do I purge revision histories?

body:
I'm getting ready to launch my "Disinfopedia," a Wikipedia-inspired
"encyclopedia of propaganda." I've seeded the project with a number
of articles of my own creation. Before going public, however, I'd
like to delete erase the revision history of my articles. There's
nothing in the history that I'm trying to hide, but during the period
when I had the thing all to myself, I employed some intermediate
cut-and-paste editing techniques that I wouldn't want others to
emulate once it goes public. Is there an easy way to delete the
revision history (using MySQL queries, for example) that won't mess
up counters, indexing, etc.?

If anyone here would like to see the Disinfopedia in its current
state of development, it's at the following URL:

http://www.disinfopedia.org
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Mirko Thiessen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop requests

body:
Hello,

you want fifty more sysops, and I would like to ask, if I may become a
sysop.

I am contributing since September 2001 under my username "Cordyph",
almost every day.

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


body:
Axel Boldt wrote:

>--- Stevertigo <stevertigo at attbi.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Alright. I formally request sysop status. Talk amongst yourselves.
>>-??}?S?:Sv
>>
>>
>
>Opposed. Reasons: low-quality and irritating edits in the past, an
>obvious delight in contributing to controversies, and an incoherent
>style of arguing.
>
>
>
And creating this daft bandwagon of EVERYONE signing in foreign scripts.

Christopher Mahan wrote:
> As a compromise, I would say that those who prefer to write their
name in their native script should be allowed to do so

but as far as I can tell, Stevertigo's name is *Steven*  -- from his user page:

??  "Crowned" + "dizzy" (/Crowned is the Christian meaning for Steven/)

so he's just *interpreted* his name into Hanji, and got eveyone wound up in the process.
arrete de faire l'interessant!


body:
At 18:51 07/03/2003 -0800, SV wrote:
>It might be nice to have it in the software that a sysop can blanket revert
>any changes made by Michael... etc... I dont know what form this can take,
>but Its taken 15 minutes of my time, Cam's time and TUF's time...
>each... -SV

This might sound petty, but I spent two hours last night (not fifteen
minutes) clearing up after this fellow, including removing faked comments
he added to [[Talk:Crass]] and attributed to other users (at least, I
*would* have removed them if he didn't add them at such a prodigious rate,
making edit conflicts inevitable). If it had only been fifteen minutes, I
would have never written to the list.

lp (Camembert)
WikiKarma: bit more at [[William Walton]]


body:
Stevertigo wrote:

>>Tarquin complained:
>>"so he's just *interpreted* his name into Hanji, and got eveyone wound up
>>
>>
>in ?>the process. arrete de faire l'interessant!"
>
>People do what they want, provided nobodys feelins get hurt. I agreed to the
>compromise Chris suggested and you echoed... hence the "sv." Problem?
>
>Thats two 'good' reasons against. Anyone else? -??:sv
>
>
I didn't mean it as a reason against.

But could you now go round and tell ALL the other users who have
imitated you to stick to the same compromise?
do what you want, but clean up the mess please

>
>


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
--- Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> For months and months we've talked about revamping
> the article count
> system, but nothing's changed. The article count is
> still an extension
> of the "comma count" used to filter out empty
> articles in a search back
> in the UseMod days.
>
> Currently, a page is counted as an "article" for "we
> have X articles"
> purposes if it is:
>   * in the article namespace (so excludes talk
> pages, user
>     pages, Wikipedia: help and utility pages)
>   * not a redirect
>   * contains a comma (!)
>
> Now, we are well aware that page-count fever has
> gripped Wikipedia for
> some time. The obsession with breaking the
> 100,000-page barrier on the
> English stifled any implementation of reforms for
> fear of reducing the
> count. Concerns about languages which don't use the
> ASCII comma
> character have been shrugged off. Well, today I've
> seen enough.
>
> While the English wiki has galumphed along for ages,
> secure in its place
> as The World's Largest Damn Wiki, the smaller
> languages are in intense
> (though friendly) competition with one another for
> runner-up positions.
> "In real life," Youssefsan tells me, "people look
> for economic growth;
> here for page growth. Both use 'creative
> accounting.'"
>
> On the francophone Wikipedia, we have been exposed
> as the slaves to the
> comma count that we all are but are ashamed to
> admit. See:
>
http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=CULTe&action=edit&oldid=33814
>
> (Those who have trouble with my PGP-signed mail, go
> to fr.wikipedia.org,
> look up article 'CULTe', and hit 'Modifier cette
> page'.)
>
> Yes that's right, people have started adding commas
> as hidden comments
> just to increase the stupid comma count. NO MORE, I
> say! Ils ne
> passeront pas!
>
> Unless a better count system is proposed, I will
> replace the comma check
> with a greater-than-zero-size check within twelve
> hours.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Oui !
The french wikipedia has become a hunt place for
commas !
Even in articles less than 10 words long...

Why not a mix between the comma method, and a certain
number of words ? (at least people will know how to
count ;-))

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
Please check out one of this morning edit (by anom)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Arabe&diff=0&oldid=34344

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


body:
--- Sheldon Rampton <sheldon.rampton at verizon.net>
wrote:
> I'm getting ready to launch my "Disinfopedia," a
> Wikipedia-inspired
> "encyclopedia of propaganda." I've seeded the
> project with a number
> of articles of my own creation. Before going public,
> however, I'd
> like to delete erase the revision history of my
> articles. There's
> nothing in the history that I'm trying to hide, but
> during the period
> when I had the thing all to myself, I employed some
> intermediate
> cut-and-paste editing techniques that I wouldn't
> want others to
> emulate once it goes public. Is there an easy way to
> delete the
> revision history (using MySQL queries, for example)
> that won't mess
> up counters, indexing, etc.?
>
> If anyone here would like to see the Disinfopedia in
> its current
> state of development, it's at the following URL:
>
> http://www.disinfopedia.org
> --
> --------------------------------
> |  Sheldon Rampton
> |  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
> |  Author of books including:
> |     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua
> Sister Cities
> |     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
> |     Mad Cow USA
> |     Trust Us, We're Experts

er....copy the content of the article...delete the
article...create it again and paste the content ? :-)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


from_name: Chuck Smith

subject: [Wikipedia-l] new article count system

body:
> Unless a better count system is proposed, I will
> replace the comma check
> with a greater-than-zero-size check within twelve
> hours.

I strongly support this, although I recommend that an
article be at least 50 bytes.  **** the current
article count.  If we say we have more articles than
we really do, then we're not being honest.  If the
article count falls, it falls.  Also, I'm going to go
ahead and start deleting those articles with zero-size
on the Esperanto Wikipedia.

Chuck

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


from_name: Robert

subject: [WikiEN-l] End the personal attacks and slander

body:
First Susan_Mason writes slanerous lies about me, then
Stevetigo does the same, and now Chris Mahaon joins the
RK-bashing.

Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> writes :
> A slanderous innuendo? Where? I missed it? Dang...

I posted the quote in my letter, where Stevertigo
explicitly accused me of promoting segregation against
Chinese languages.  (This is a really sick thing for
someone to claim, by the way.)  I am sorry that you found
his wording too confusing to understand.  Allow me to
explain:

Susan Mason is accusing me of being racist against Chinese
people, while Stevertigo slightly rephrases this, and
accuses me of "Segregation" Chinese letters, thereby
implying that I am bigoted against Chinese people and/or
culture. Do you get it now?

Chris Mahan then writes:
> The fact that he signs his posts with a hard-to-duplicate
> sig, one hat most likely happens to be the exact' legal
> ntition of his birth name, lead me to believe that in
> fact is his intent that his post not be confused for any
> one else's. Whodathunk?

That's really stupid, man. You already have been told that
this system literally DOES NOT WORK on many computers.
Others on this list have already told you that ENGLISH
SPEAKERS do not differentiate well between multiple Kanji
signatures, and that Stevertigo is attempting to get
multple people to start using Kanji. And we are working
specifically on an encyclopedia for English speakers,
remember?  What do you find so confusing about this?

> Kanji being the primary element of the written language
> of the second largest world economy, of a
> technologically advanced and pionering nation where the
> internet is concerned, and the official
> writ of 140 million people, I dare say that blaming
> people for using it is narror-sighted at best.

Thar's insane.  By that argument, we should write the
entire English Wikipedia in Chinese!  Do you really not
understand that this is the ENGLISH Wikipedia, and that
people are also working on other Wikipedias in other
langauges?  What about this concept do you find to hard to
understand?

Also, I am disturbed by the way that subtly imply that
Susan Mason and Stevertigo are correct; you imply that I a
really am a bigot, simply because I want to read an
English-language encyclopedia in English leters.  I take
great offense at what you write here.

> On a more serious note, Robert, how would you feel if the
> Internet
> had been createdn by the Soviets, and the ligua franca
> was Russian,
> and the script was cyrillic, would you not want to sign
> your own name
> the way your parents meant for you to rather than with
> less-than perfect cyrillic approximations?

I, and most of us here, are AGAINST English Wikipeida being
made unreadable by introducing Chinese, Japansese,
Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, Farwi and a host of other
characters that most English speakers would find confusing.

I am sorry to see that Chris Mahan, Stevertigo, and Susan
Mason are working so hard to make Wikipedia unreadable.  I
am sorry to see hat some people lie about me beliefs, and
think it is acceptable to make accusations of racism
towards Wikipedia contributors for the "crime" of saying
that this is the English Wikipedia.

In disgust at the way I am being treated,

RK

=====
"I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous".
The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]

__________________________________________________
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body:
>Zoe summarized: And just a general incoherence that verges on the obsessive.

Not to mention the "sexist", the "monolithic" and the "anti-Semitic"... c'mon... get it all out of your system...  -??:sv
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Image usage

body:
> All images on that site are drawings from a 1905 field guide, and so
> they should be public domain. BUT all images were (as they describe on
> their page) scanned and reworked with a graphics tool in order to
> change contrast, lightness and hue. I don't know, if this makes the
> owners of the website new copyright holders.

If the page doesnt say copyrighted ... (sometimes its only on the home
page..... ) it should be fair game.. especially if you know the original
source, and... if you modify the image a bit yourself... Look at the Redd
Foxx portrait which i merged from two crappier photos I found on the web...
neither one of these can directly be tied to this one, and theirs were rip-
offs anyway... But either way, Ive run across a few images that were
questionable in origin, and the solution to removing any tie to the original
is to modify the image... Explanation:
A company I worked for was engaged in the shady business of scanning other
peoples high-end catalogs for use of the images on the web. After consulting
a lawyer, who said that it was ok to use the images provided there were
seven changes made to them... seven degrees of removal from the original...
I don't know if this holds water well enough for here.. (Most places dont
worry at all...)   but... in the strictest sense, its not hard to alter a
photo with a few different operations... ??:sv


subject: [WikiEN-l] Name order in alpha lists (was Re: Problems with Susan Mason)

body:
> Sannse: The pump was getting a bit full with discussion of name order in
lists, > so
> I've moved the talk to [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(lists)]] (well,
> some of it anyway - I'm still working on it)
>
> I'm sending this because I didn't want the move to get lost.  Apologies if
> this is unnecessary

Not at all.. I told Susan last night to go actually discuss the issue with
people, rather than get into tiny edit wars all over the place - when she
just makes the changes herself.. -??:sv


body:
> RK pondered: Thar's insane.  By that argument, we should write the
> entire English Wikipedia in Chinese!
> Also, I am disturbed ...
> I take great offense at what you write here....
> I, and most of us here, are AGAINST English Wikipeida being
> made unreadable by introducing Chinese ....
> characters that most English speakers would find confusing....
> I am sorry to see that Chris Mahan, Stevertigo, and Susan
> Mason are working so hard...
> am sorry to see that some people lie about me beliefs,
> think it is acceptable to make accusations of racism...
> I am being treated...

Well, I for one have never stooped to calling you "anti-Sinotic" Robert. Any
prejudices you have against cultures other-than-your-own speak for
themselves...  In your long winded comment... you essentially base your
argument under 1 central assumption and 3 accusations of "anti-Robertism",
(with the added implication of making the list longer at your discretion.)
The accusations are just smokescreen, so Im not going go into them... I can
if you like...

Your central assumption - that using non-English characters on the en:wp
violates "protocol"... ("master Luke!") which is nonsense : we use umlauts,
and accented spanish characters. And those nordic circle things... yadda...
You seem to think that 1. using a Chinese sig in the Talk pages interferes
with people understanding the Encyclopedia... and 2 that most other people
cant see them - with UNICODE to read them... It wouldnt make sense for
anyone to bother, if there wasnt such a thing as UNICODE gaining in
prominence for its utility... Besides.. I compromised in accordance with
Chris idea - bilingual sig... so... rant all you want...- DimSum:sv

Ps. Victoria - I dont know whats going on... Im sending these plain text
only...
ah, its the Unicode... needs html... ok...


from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
Thanks Brion for your proposal. I always appreciate that you take
non-English pedias like Japanese one seriously. But I have a slightly
different take on this issue.

1. threshold

Regarding the suggested article count, how about making it 50bytes and
greater instead of 0?
I know that either threshold is arbitrary, but I guess 50 is likely to be
better than 0.

2. English-centrism

It happened to be that Japanese wikipedia became quite active after English
wikipedia reached 10,000 - the achievement was reported in WiredNews, and it
was translated into WiredNews Japan. That brought a wave of new visitors,
some of them still active today.

So, even though the act of resisting any change in article count method
might be that of English-centrism of a kind, somehow Japanese wikipedia
benefited from it. It's good to realize that the English and non-English
sites do not always have zero-sum relation. (And it's good if others can
come up with some win-win type solution for other matters.)

3. Immediate implementation

In my personal opinion, (which could be very different from average or most
popular opinions of others in Japanese wikipedia), Japanese wikipedia does
not have an urgent need to change the article count.

Of course, the change itself is good.
The current system is quite useless for Japanese pages, (because Japanse
writing doesn't include that alphabetical comma much) and I rely on page
counts to understand the growth. It is somewhat inconvenient when it comes
to comparing Japanese one with others. The international statistics on
English wiki reports article counts only. I have to go to other sites
one-by-one, and see the page counts.

And I believe that Brion waited long enough for his part.

But it just happned to be that, in my personal opinion, Japanese wikipedians
are now in the process of forming basic policies and guidelines (naming
conventions, styles, etc. in Japanese language), as well as some
community-like ties among users. Article is growing, but registered users
are not very much, and most posting are from registered users and a few
specific IP-only users. That shouldn't continue very long, but for now, it
is not a bad thing to prepare infrastructure for the next slashdotting.
And anyway, the article count for the japanese 'pedia will not reach some
landmark figures like 5,000 or 10,000 for several weeks or so.

So, while I am thankful to Brion's declaration, I personally think that
Japanese wikipedians might be able to wait a bit if others want to stop him
for some good reasons.

(I'm not sure if anyone can stop Brion, though ;)

best,

Tomos

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Please sign this anti-war petition

body:
>Daniel:
>  The letter that I sent DIDN'T say that it should be sent to the UN, it
>was
> to be signed on the internet (not email)and given all at once to the UNSC
> when they were considering approving the US's resolution to authorize war
on
> Iraq.  Luckily, even without your help, the petition collected over 85000
> signatures, much more than any  chain letter.

"In ten years or so we'll leak the truth. But by then. It's only so much
paper". -DKennedys
This isnt even paper.. keep that in mind... :) SV


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
> > Oui !
> > The french wikipedia has become a hunt place for
> > commas !
> > Even in articles less than 10 words long...
>
> Ouhl?l?... Warning commas-hunters ! Anthere is back
> !!!

Ah, Tim ! Si tu n'existais pas, il faudrait t'inventer
!

Tiens, d'ailleurs, faudra que tu nous explique comment
on te reconnait, car franchement, connaitre ta cl?, ?a
ne m'avance pas du tout du tout du tout

Et tant que je ne comprend pas,
Tim , c'est Tim,
et Tim, c'est toi

> Anthere, take a look at [[SHA-1]] and tell me how
> many commas are there?
> There is only one, and it is not needed, from a
> stylistic point of view.
> This article is a very good example : Some articles
> may not have commas,
> unless they are long and complete enough to be
> considerated as articles.

I never said the comma technic was the right one to
count an article as a "good" article
Your example is an extrem case. I see no pb with you
adding a comma here.

But all the articles you did this morning, with commas
in comments are much poorer than SHA-1, and imho
hardly deserve the name of encyclopedic articles.
Dictionary articles yes, but not encyclopedia
articles.

This is a dictionary article, with commas in comment :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Aiguchi&diff=0&oldid=34343

> That's why I have added commas to every article
> which doesn't have
> one... C'est aussi simple que ?a.
>
> > Why not a mix between the comma method, and a
> certain
> > number of words ? (at least people will know how
> to
> > count ;-))
>
> Greater-than-zero-size check is simple and efficient
> enough...

It is simple. But it is slightly ridiculous. Certainly
not the best way to convince newcomers we are a great
resource

By the way, I am happy that Tim took some time to
improve some of Tim articles. Have you seen ?

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banane

> Athymik (athymik at ifrance.com)
> Cl? publique
> http://athymik.devveb.org/public_key.asc

Attention, cl? publique, nous avons affaire ? un Tim
certifi? !

Ant

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Chinese sigs...

body:
>Tarq: he's right. English wikipedia, english language.

Y'all are making a fuss over a sig for the talk page? -SV

>T: but they are fundamentally latin letters. we know how to read them.

Ah, do we? Mitwirkender vom englischen Wikipedia.  Ich kenne gerade gen?gend
Deutsches, um Verbindungen manchmal hier zu bilden.-SV

> nope, but it interferes with us known who is saying what.

Not if I do as per the agreement for bilingualismo..Even more problematic to
that is the bad habit by some (128.xxx.. ) and other regular anons of not
signing their entries at all, or cutting in withing saying CUTTING IN:

> I can see them on my Mac (OS X) but not Win 98 SE. We all shouldnt be
using microsoft anyway, but you must be missing the unicode update... Get an
update. - SV


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
--- Takuya Murata <takusi at manjiro.net> wrote:
> Hello, Brion

Hello Takuya

> >Unless a better count system is proposed, I will
> replace
> the comma check
> >with a greater-than-zero-size check within twelve
> hours.
>
> You have a good point. Every one knows current
> counting
> system is silly and need overwhole. I have no
> objection at
> all.
>
> Only my concern is that we should not make a
> decision in the
> place where people can't participate. Yes, every one
> can
> discuss here but only if they speak English. It
> seems most
> of wikipedians in ja.wikipedia knows almost nothing
> about
> what is going on the administration stage like here
> or
> village pump in en.wikipedia.
>
> If you are talking about only en.wikipedia (since
> this
> mailing list is in English), forgive me about my
> misunderstanding.

Hum, you are very right with language issue
But, even if this list is in english, it is the main
list, so issues discussed here are likely to impact
all wikipedias
Besides, that the french silliness with comma hunting
that has been going on for about a month, that explain
this subject being raised again. But the issue is not
new :-)

> My suspecion is that we should stop using universal
> system
> for all of editions. Different languages need
> different
> coordination. The couting artciels should depend on
> the
> language of edition. Therefore, the discussion here
> should
> be irrelevant and we should move this to each
> wikipedia's
> village pump.

Yes and no.
It is not irrelevant, for some people thrive on
monitoring the number of articles, and many
internationals are eager to go up in the rank.
For those, it is important that the numbering
technique be the same, for the comparison to stay
valid.

On the other hand, it would be interesting that
discussions go in parallele in pump (of coffee shop
:-)) for everyone to feel involved

My feeling is that counting technique should maybe be
related to the language family.

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from_name: Takuya Murata

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
Hello, Brion

>Unless a better count system is proposed, I will replace
the comma check
>with a greater-than-zero-size check within twelve hours.

You have a good point. Every one knows current counting
system is silly and need overwhole. I have no objection at
all.

Only my concern is that we should not make a decision in the
place where people can't participate. Yes, every one can
discuss here but only if they speak English. It seems most
of wikipedians in ja.wikipedia knows almost nothing about
what is going on the administration stage like here or
village pump in en.wikipedia.

If you are talking about only en.wikipedia (since this
mailing list is in English), forgive me about my
misunderstanding.

My suspecion is that we should stop using universal system
for all of editions. Different languages need different
coordination. The couting artciels should depend on the
language of edition. Therefore, the discussion here should
be irrelevant and we should move this to each wikipedia's
village pump.

-------
Takuya Murata
takusi at manjiro.net


body:
At 07:22 AM 3/9/03 -0800, Stevertigo wrote:
>??
> >Zoe summarized: And just a general incoherence that verges on the
> obsessive.
>
>Not to mention the "sexist", the "monolithic" and the "anti-Semitic"...
>c'mon... get it all out of your system...  -???? ?:sv

And the illegible--black on dark gray doesn't work for me. And that's not a
cultural
matter--your non-ASCII characters are as illegible as the other kind.

If you want to communicate onlist, *please* drop the HTML formatting and
let the
recipients play with the colors if we want to.

--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Sysop requests

body:
I wrote:
> I am contributing since September 2001 under my username "Cordyph",
> almost every day.

Ooops! Of course I mean September 2002. Sorry.

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


subject: Fwd: Re: [WikiEN-l] Please sign this anti-war petition

body:
The letter that I sent DIDN'T say that it should be sent to the UN, it was
to be signed on the internet (not email)and given all at once to the UNSC
when they were considering approving the US's resolution to authorize war on
Iraq.  Luckily, even without your help, the petition collected over 85000
signatures, much more than any  chain letter.

>Besides the fact that this is, indeed, spam, it's useless.  See
>"http://www.snopes.com/rumors/un.htm"
>The UN's own websit says, "The UN is NOT involved in soliciting or
>collecting such petitions. We would suggest that since it is member
>governments of the UN who will decide on whatever action occurs in various
>situations, citizens should contact their own government.".
>Zoe

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from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: META tags

body:
On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:15:36 -0800, Ray Saintonge
<saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> Pedro M.V. wrote:
>
>>> And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4
>>> minutes?
>>>
>>
>> The user could mark the box about it in Preferences. So, no problem.
>> Better, a good thing ;)
>>
> This doesn't seem like a good idea.  It seems to me that it would stress
> the server for things that one doesn't really need.  A person who goes to
> dinner for an hour with the recent changes page open will have uselessly
> sought to refresh 15 times.
>
A good point. And redundant since there are browsers which will refresh a
certain URL at a preset interval for you. For other browsers you could even
use the likes of Proxomitron to write a meta refresh into the page as it
reaches you. Just promise solemnly to close the page if you go to dinner!

--
Richard Grevers


from_name: sannse

body:
The pump was getting a bit full with discussion of name order in lists, so
I've moved the talk to [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(lists)]] (well,
some of it anyway - I'm still working on it)

I'm sending this because I didn't want the move to get lost.  Apologies if
this is unnecessary

sannse


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Image usage

body:
Hallo,

I just found a source for tons of bird images on
http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/birds/naumann.htm, and I
am eager to use them. But I am not 100% sure, if I am allowed to use
them.

All images on that site are drawings from a 1905 field guide, and so
they should be public domain. BUT all images were (as they describe on
their page) scanned and reworked with a graphics tool in order to
change contrast, lightness and hue. I don't know, if this makes the
owners of the website new copyright holders.

Of course I tried to contact them, but the e-mail address on that page
is invalid, so there is no contact person.

Can anyone tell me, if I am allowed to use these images?

Mirko.

--
Mirko Thiessen
http://www.mirko-thiessen.de


body:
> --- Sheldon Rampton <sheldon.rampton at verizon.net> wrote:
> > I'm getting ready to launch my "Disinfopedia," a Wikipedia-inspired
> > "encyclopedia of propaganda." I've seeded the project with a number
> > of articles of my own creation. Before going public, however, I'd
> > like to delete erase the revision history of my articles. There's
> > nothing in the history that I'm trying to hide, but during the period
> > when I had the thing all to myself, I employed some intermediate
> > cut-and-paste editing techniques that I wouldn't want others to
> > emulate once it goes public. Is there an easy way to delete the
> > revision history (using MySQL queries, for example) that won't mess
> > up counters, indexing, etc.?

Counters, indexing, etc are all in the 'cur' table, so you can pretty
much do what you will to the 'old' table. If you just want to get rid of
history revisions, these should do:

To remove *all* old revisions, leaving only current revisions:
  DELETE FROM old;

Simple, eh? ;)

To remove all revisions from a certain article, leaving only its current
revision:
  DELETE FROM old WHERE old_namespace=# and old_title='The_title';

Same, but only prior to a certain date:
  DELETE FROM old WHERE old_namespace=# and old_title='The_title'
    AND old_timestamp < 'YYYYMMDDHHMMSS';

You may also wish to clear out the recentchanges summary table, which
will keep the last few days'  worth of changes listed and includes
references to the old table. Simplest may be to just wipe it out
completely:
  DELETE FROM recentchanges;

Or again up to a certain time:
  DELETE FROM recentchanges WHERE rc_timestamp < 'YYYYMMDDHHMMSS';

Anthere wrote:
> er....copy the content of the article...delete the
> article...create it again and paste the content ? :-)

Well, that works too. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Image usage

body:
Stevertigo wrote:

>A company I worked for was engaged in the shady business of scanning other
>peoples high-end catalogs for use of the images on the web. After consulting
>a lawyer, who said that it was ok to use the images provided there were
>seven changes made to them... seven degrees of removal from the original...
>I don't know if this holds water well enough for here..
>
The "seven changes" rule doesn't make sense.  Consider the picture of a
famous man sitting at a desk.  On his desk, among many other things is a
yellow pencil. One change could be to change the colour of that pencil
to blue.  I could easily find another six such minor changes.  Using
this seven-changes rule strikes me as contrary to the spirit of the law.

Eclecticology


from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Image usage

body:
On Sun, Mar 09, 2003 at 11:22:45AM +0100, Mirko Thiessen wrote:
> Hallo,
>
>
> I just found a source for tons of bird images on
> http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/birds/naumann.htm, and I
> am eager to use them. But I am not 100% sure, if I am allowed to use
> them.
>
> All images on that site are drawings from a 1905 field guide, and so
> they should be public domain. BUT all images were (as they describe on
> their page) scanned and reworked with a graphics tool in order to
> change contrast, lightness and hue. I don't know, if this makes the
> owners of the website new copyright holders.
>
> Of course I tried to contact them, but the e-mail address on that page
> is invalid, so there is no contact person.
>
> Can anyone tell me, if I am allowed to use these images?

Hi Mirko,

the page you referenced above contains the following paragraph:

   Ganz anders sieht es mit den Abbildungen aus. Wo sonst steht
   heutzutage eine vollst?ndige Sammlung von Abbildungen aller
   mitteleurop?ischen (und etlichen anderen) V?gel zur
   Verf?gung, die nach entsprechender Bearbeitung in die PUBLIC
   DOMAIN des Internets eingegeben werden, und somit frei f?r
   jedermann zug?nglich gemacht werden kann. Die Abbildungen,
   hingegen, k?nnen f?r Unterrichtszwecke sehr wohl genutzt, mit
   neuen Texten, zus?tzlichen Abbildungen, Filmabschnitten und
   Tonsequenzen kombiniert werden, um dadurch unter Einbeziehung
   neuer Multimedia - Techniken Interesse an der heimischen
   Vogelwelt zu wecken.

I read this paragraph as a donation of the scanned images to the PD.

Best regards,

	jens frank