subject: [WikiEN-l] more WP:OFFICE shenanigans

body:
On 3/15/06, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/15/06, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> > Why is it not a good comparison?  There are many people who would argue
> > that Satanists are no better than Stormfront members (possibly worse, if
> > you believe the network-TV exposes on "satanic cults").
> >
> > If indeed an individual keeps making superficially neutral edits that
> > turn out not to be, then I would favor banning them---but *because of
> > that*, not because they happen to be a neo-Nazi, or a pedophile, or a
> > Satanist, or whatever the moral-panic-du-jour is.
>
> My point wasn't so much about the type of person editing (although an
> argument can be made that our level of care here should be directly
> proportional to the size and intensity of the pitchfork-wielding mob
> after Jimbo if we screw up), but about the type of article.
> Biographies, being highly susceptible to defamation and the like, are
> of significantly less risk than articles on general topics.
>
> Are there some particular biographies where we should be wary of
> Satanist manipulation?  ;-)
>
> Kirill Lokshin

And that should be *more* risk, of course!

Kirill Lokshin


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] more WP:OFFICE shenanigans

body:
Kirill Lokshin wrote:

>(although an
>argument can be made that our level of care here should be directly
>proportional to the size and intensity of the pitchfork-wielding mob
>after Jimbo if we screw up)
>
That's actually what I'm afraid may be happening, at least in some cases.

-Mark


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Rich Morin

subject: [Wikitech-l] Where is the database Schema, etc?

body:
>> Q:  Are there any changes in the DB schema for MW 1.6?

RC> 1. Yes, see the tables.sql files for 1.6 (available from CVS, but
RC> wait a few, SourceForge has anon. access down for 48 hours or so)

BV> Yes, we have made some changes so far.  You can compare the
BV> commented tables.sql files between 1.5 and the current 1.6 in
BV> CVS HEAD to see all such changes.

I guess I'll have to wait, unless someone with access is willing to
email me a copy before then (:-).

>> Q:  Is there any column-level documentation of the tables?

RC> 2. It should be there in the comments. ...

BV> You will find *exactly* this in tables.sql, ...

Guilty.  I wasn't looking hard enough.

>> Q:  Are ERDs available for 1.5.X and/or 1.6?
>>
>>     http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:DER_Mediawiki.PNG

RC> 3. Not a clue.  If a search produces nothing, I guess not.

BV> No.

I wouldn't expect a search to be needed.  The logical place to
put the diagram is on the same page the existing one is on.

> Q:  Where did the ERDs come from?

RC> 4. Some user created them; that much is evident from the upload
RC>    summaries. Who and how, we don't know. Ask them. :)

BV> We don't have any ERDs. If any exist, they were created by third
BV> parties and we have no knowledge of htem.

AFAICT, the user was Felipe Pablos Lamas <felipepl at unex.es>.
I put an inquiry on User_talk:Lamassa and sent him email.

In the meanwhile, I'm puddling along on my doc pages:

  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:RichMorin/MySQL_Tables
  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:RichMorin/mw_image

I did come up with some specific questions on columns, BTW.
I'll send that in a separate email.

-r
--
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development


from_name: Rob Church

subject: [Wikitech-l] what happens to cvs-access?

body:
Public Health Alert: SourceForge anon CVS is known to be shit. And the
regular access isn't much better, either. I expect it's borked right
now, give it a few.

Rob Church

On 15/03/06, - Essjay - <essjaywiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> Having the same problem, and I hear that many others have as well. Is this a
> problem with SourceForge?
>
> Essjay
>
> On 3/15/06, Heinz <h-j.luecking at t-online.de> wrote:
> >
> > i get no access
> >
> > http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia
> >
> > heinz
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Essjay
> -----
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay
> Wikipedia:The Free Encyclopedia
> http://www.wikipedia.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: admin Yellowikis

subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL5 uprade

body:
    *  MediaWiki: 1.5.7
    * PHP: 4.4.2-0.dotdeb.1 (apache)
    * MySQL: 5.0.18-Debian_3.dotdeb.1-log

MySQL re-started.

still having problems with search.

Any MySQL gurus out there?

On 3/10/06, admin Yellowikis <yellowikis at gmail.com> wrote:
> Spoke too soon - problem has returned.
>
> Will try re-installing.
>
> Paul
>
> On 3/10/06, admin Yellowikis <yellowikis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > A second MyISAM check seems to have solved the problem.
> >
> > You can all stop worrying about it now ;-)
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > On 3/10/06, admin Yellowikis <yellowikis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hmmm...
> > >
> > >
> > > Now we have crashing tables again.
> > >
> > > =====
> > > A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in
> > > the software. The last attempted database query was:
> > >
> > >     SELECT page_id, page_namespace, page_title FROM
> > > `yw_page`,`yw_searchindex` WHERE page_id=si_page AND MATCH(si_title)
> > > AGAINST('+test' IN BOOLEAN MODE) AND page_is_redirect=0 AND
> > > page_namespace IN (0) LIMIT 0,20
> > >
> > > from within function "". MySQL returned error "145: Table
> > > './payo/yw_searchindex' is marked as crashed and should be repaired
> > > (brane-int)".
> > >
> > > ====
> > >
> > > I'll try a re-install/upgrade - maybe that will fix it.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 3/9/06, admin Yellowikis <yellowikis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The upgraded to MySQL 5.0 has caused some problems. When we save an
> > > > article we get this error - though the changes do get saved:
> > > >
> > > > ===
> > > > A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in
> > > > the software. The last attempted database query was:
> > > >
> > > >     REPLACE INTO `yw_searchindex` (si_page,si_title,si_text) VALUES
> > > > ('5329','fish',' fish and fishing ')
> > > >
> > > > from within function "SearchMySQL4::update". MySQL returned error
> > > > "1062: Duplicate entry ' ' for key 3 (brane-int)".
> > > > ===
> > > >
> > > > Previously we had a corruped table:
> > > > ===
> > > > A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in
> > > > the software. The last attempted database query was:
> > > > (SQL query hidden)
> > > > from within function "SearchMySQL4::update". MySQL returned error
> > > > "145: Table './payo/yw_searchindex' is marked as crashed and should be
> > > > repaired (brane-int)".
> > > > ===
> > > > which was repaired and hasn't given any further problems.
> > > >
> > > > We've also run myisamchk against all the tables in the database.
> > > >
> > > > A couple of Wikimedias running 1.4.x are working without any problems
> > > > on the upgraded system.
> > > >
> > > > Any suggestions?
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2/27/06, admin Yellowikis <yellowikis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi everyone,
> > > > >
> > > > > We are running:
> > > > >     *  MediaWiki: 1.5.5
> > > > >     * PHP: 4.4.2-0.dotdeb.1 (apache)
> > > > >     * MySQL: 4.1.11-Debian_4sarge2-log
> > > > >
> > > > > Planning to upgrade to MySQL 5.0.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any issues/problems that we should be aware of?
> > > > >
> > > > > (yes, we plan to do a full back up first)
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Yellowikis is to Yellow Pages, as Wikipedia is to The Encyclopedia Britannica
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Yellowikis is to Yellow Pages, as Wikipedia is to The Encyclopedia Britannica
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Yellowikis is to Yellow Pages, as Wikipedia is to The Encyclopedia Britannica
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Yellowikis is to Yellow Pages, as Wikipedia is to The Encyclopedia Britannica
> >
>
>
> --
> Yellowikis is to Yellow Pages, as Wikipedia is to The Encyclopedia Britannica
>

--
Yellowikis is to Yellow Pages, as Wikipedia is to The Encyclopedia Britannica


from_name: Kirill Lokshin

subject: [WikiEN-l] more WP:OFFICE shenanigans

body:
On 3/15/06, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> Kirill Lokshin wrote:
>
> >(although an
> >argument can be made that our level of care here should be directly
> >proportional to the size and intensity of the pitchfork-wielding mob
> >after Jimbo if we screw up)
> >
> That's actually what I'm afraid may be happening, at least in some cases.

I don't think that's entirely a bad thing.  Unless we wish to ignore
Wikipedia's reputation entirely, we should, within reason, avoid doing
things likely to blow up in our face in a particluarly spectacular
fashion.  Whether any particular issue _is_ likely to blow up is open
for debate, of course; but we shouldn't pretend that any decisions we
make will have no reprecussions in the outside world.

Kirill Lokshin


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Ilya N.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Europanto

body:
Is there even a set vocabulary, or does one simply just take random
words from different European languages?

Ich puedo do ?so. ??K?nnen Tu?

On 3/15/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree here, although it would be interesting if somebody wrote a
> Europanto script.
>
> Mark
>
> On 15/03/06, Neil Harris <usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> > Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
> > > Servien Ilaino wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hoi,
> > >>
> > >> Ich ne denk pas that een Europanto Wikipedia ist een bon idee, een
> couple de
> > >> spr?ker sollen be gebruikt und rien ne sollen pas het f?rst?r.
> > >>
> > >> It's more like a fun language, but as I said some languages will be
> used
> > >> more than others, it also seems like a project which is more intended
> for
> > >> fun than a serious encyclopedia.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > Perhaps a Wikicity?
> > >
> > >
> > As I said when this was last brought up, it should only take the writing
> > of a fairly simple script, and you can munge en: and Wiktionary more or
> > less instantly into over 1,000,000 Europanto articles. Given that, why
> > bother? In my opinion, once you've realized this, the task becomes about
> > as interesting as Sudoku does once you've written a constraint-search
> > solver.
> >
> > -- Neil
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
~Ilya N.
http://w3stuff.com/ilya/ (My website; DarkLordFoxx Media)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ilyanep (on Wikipedia)
http://www.wheresgeorge.com - Track your money's travels.


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Too much agglomeration

body:
On 3/15/06, Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:
> The Cunctator wrote:
> > Someone please tell me how this article
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_Naval_Base
> >
> > is better off not being broken up into separate entries.
> >
> I count four sections that are already broken off into separate entries:
>
> [[Camp Delta]]
> [[Camp Iguana]]/
> /[[Combatant Status Review Tribunal]]
> [[Periodic Report of the United States of America to the United Nations
> Committee Against Torture]]
>
> It looks like it could use more, though. Is anyone trying to stop you
> from doing it? I don't see anything obvious in the history or talk pages
> discussing this issue.

No, I'm just whining. If the Naval Base section was broken off from
the detention camp section i'd have less to complain about.


from_name: Heinz

body:
i get no access

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia

heinz


subject: [WikiEN-l] Split tool? was Too much agglomeration

body:
After whining about [[Guantanamo Bay Naval Base]] I was wondering if
it would be possible to develop a split or clone tool; like the move
tool but would allow a new page to be generated with the same history
as the other one.

I hate copying off tons of text from GBNB and losing the history; with
the clone/split tool I wouldn't have that problem. I'd think it would
be comparatively easy to implement in some clever fashion ??


subject: [Wikitech-l] Split tool? was Too much agglomeration


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Template problem on Help desk

body:
Is it my connection or is there some server problem again?
Instead of templates, I see long letter/number combos on the help desk
and I had several error messages too.

Mgm


from_name: Carl Fûrstenberg

body:
Their svn-service at the moment is much better than their cvs-access.

On 3/15/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> Public Health Alert: SourceForge anon CVS is known to be shit. And the
> regular access isn't much better, either. I expect it's borked right
> now, give it a few.
>
>
> Rob Church
>
> On 15/03/06, - Essjay - <essjaywiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Having the same problem, and I hear that many others have as well. Is this a
> > problem with SourceForge?
> >
> > Essjay
> >
> > On 3/15/06, Heinz <h-j.luecking at t-online.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > i get no access
> > >
> > > http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia
> > >
> > > heinz
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Essjay
> > -----
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay
> > Wikipedia:The Free Encyclopedia
> > http://www.wikipedia.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Retrieving article deleted for NN

body:
On 3/15/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:45:22 +0100, you wrote:
>
> > there's several admins quite willing to retrieve content if you
> >don't plan on reposting exact copies
>
> Me, for one.
> Guy (JzG)
> --
And if he's not planning to repost to begin with and just wants a copy
for personal use, I don't see problem anyway.

Mgm


body:
The following is a sparse list of lists.  The top level is
made up of table names.  The second level is made up of
column names.  A column name is only included if I can't
find a specific, complete comment about it (or if I'm not
sure I understand the situation).  All tables are listed,
as a check that I haven't missed anything.

I have tried to make up some comments, which are flagged
with "???", _???_, etc.

-r

 archive

  -- ??? ID of the namespace for the archive

  ar_namespace        int                         NOT NULL  default '0',

  -- ??? Title of the archive

  ar_title            varchar(255)   binary       NOT NULL  default '',

  -- Basic revision stuff, as documented in _???_

  ar_comment          tinyblob                    NOT NULL  default '',
  ar_user             int(5)         unsigned     NOT NULL  default '0',
  ar_user_text        varchar(255)   binary       NOT NULL,
  ar_timestamp        char(14)       binary       NOT NULL  default '',
  ar_minor_edit       tinyint(1)                  NOT NULL  default '0',

  -- See ar_text note.
  -- ??? - how does the note relate to ar_flag?

  ar_flags            tinyblob                    NOT NULL  default '',

categorylinks

hitcounter

  ??? Is hc_id a foreign key for page.page_id?

mw_image

  ??? Is user_id a foreign key for user.user_id?

  ??? Is user_name a duplicate if the field in the user table?

imagelinks

  ??? Is il_from a foreign key for user.user_id?

interwiki

ipblocks

  ??? Is ipb_user a foreign key for user.user_id?

mw_logging

  ??? Is log_user a foreign key for user.user_id?

math

objectcache

  --  ???

  keyname             char(255)      binary       NOT NULL  default '',

  --  ???

  value               mediumblob,

  --  ??? Expiration time for this cache entry

  exptime             datetime,

oldimage

  oi_name is a foreign key for image.image_name

  oi_name             varchar(255)   binary       NOT NULL  default '',

  ??? Are oi_size .. oi_timestamp copied from a row in image?

pagelinks

  ??? Is pl_from a foreign key for page.page_id?

recentchanges

  ??? Is rc_comment   a duplicate of revision.rev_comment?
  ??? Is rc_minor     a duplicate of revision.rev_minor_edit?
  ??? Is rc_user      a duplicate of revision.rev_user?
  ??? Is rc_user_text a duplicate of revision.rev_user_text?

  ??? Is rc_cur_id     a foreign key for page.page_id?
  ??? Is rc_last_oldid a foreign key for revision.rev_id?
  ??? Is rc_this_oldid a foreign key for revision.rev_id?

searchindex

  ??? Is si_page       a foreign key for page.page_id?

site_stats

text

  ??? Is old_id a foreign key?  For what?

trackbacks

  ??? None of these are defined.

  ??? Is tb_page a foreign key for page.page_id?

  tb_id               integer        AUTO_INCREMENT PRIMARY KEY,
  tb_page             integer        REFERENCES page(page_id) ON DELETE
CASCADE,
  tb_title            varchar(255)                NOT NULL,
  tb_url              varchar(255)                NOT NULL,
  tb_ex               text,
  tb_name             varchar(255),

user

user_groups

  ??? Is ug_user a foreign key for user.user_id?

user_newtalk

  ??? Is user_id a foreign key for user.user_id?

validate

  ??? None of these are defined.

  ??? Is val_page     a foreign key for page.page_id?
  ??? Is val_revision a foreign key for revision.rev_id?
  ??? Is val_user     a foreign key for user.user_id?

  val_user            int(11)                     NOT NULL  default '0',
  val_page            int(11)        unsigned     NOT NULL  default '0',
  val_revision        int(11)        unsigned     NOT NULL  default '0',
  val_type            int(11)        unsigned     NOT NULL  default '0',
  val_value           int(11)                               default '0',
  val_comment         varchar(255)                NOT NULL  default '',
  val_ip              varchar(20)                 NOT NULL  default '',

watchlist

  ??? Is wl_user      a foreign key for user.user_id?
  ??? Is wl_namespace a foreign key for page.page_namespace?
  ??? Is wl_title     a foreign key for page.page_title?

???  What other foreign keys have I missed?
--
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development


subject: [WikiEN-l] Too much agglomeration

body:
On 3/15/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/15/06, Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:
> > The Cunctator wrote:
> > > Someone please tell me how this article
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_Naval_Base
> > >
> > > is better off not being broken up into separate entries.
> > >
> > I count four sections that are already broken off into separate entries:
> >
> > [[Camp Delta]]
> > [[Camp Iguana]]/
> > /[[Combatant Status Review Tribunal]]
> > [[Periodic Report of the United States of America to the United Nations
> > Committee Against Torture]]
> >
> > It looks like it could use more, though. Is anyone trying to stop you
> > from doing it? I don't see anything obvious in the history or talk pages
> > discussing this issue.
>
> No, I'm just whining. If the Naval Base section was broken off from
> the detention camp section i'd have less to complain about.
>
Okay, I did a bit but there's still tons that needs to be broken off
and better organized.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Cute mention in the NYT

body:
>From http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/sports/ncaabasketball/12bracket.html

"Nowhere is the growth of the bracket's prestige more evident than
with the proliferation of bracketology, a concept defined in
Wikipedia, not Webster's."

Just think that in a few generations "Wikipedia" will be the generic
equivalent of "Webster's".

Woot! (Again, defined in Wikipedia and probably not in Webster's.)


from_name: Mark Gallagher

subject: [WikiEN-l] more WP:OFFICE shenanigans

body:
G'day Steve,

> On 3/14/06, Mark Gallagher <m.g.gallagher at student.canberra.edu.au>
> wrote:
>
>> Basically, balance is "give all sides of the story, however
>> ridiculous". We see this a lot in political reporting, particularly
>> in America, I understand[0].
>
> Ok, but is this really true? I can't imagine minority views ever
> getting much airtime on mainstream American news?

It's not so much a case of "minority views" as "batshit views".  Taking
the LaRouche example --- it is not so much the insignicance of LaRouche
that is important, to me, in the balance/neutrality debate, as it is the
utter disconnection from reality.  Dick Cheney isn't going to launch
nukes against Iran tomorrow, and Lyndon LaRouche would certainly not be
his strongest opponent were he to attempt to do so.

Sometimes, of the two main sides of any story, only one is indeed the
truth.  I'll pick an example from the /Columbia Journalism Review/ ...

Suppose that a bunch of anti-abortion lobbyists had recently discovered
that abortion increases one's risk of breast cancer.  Now, suppose that
that is, in fact, a lie, and scientists stand firm that abortion,
regardless of the moral issues concerned (let's not go there), has *no*
relationship to breast cancer whatsoever.  How should this story be
reported?

   "Abortion activists have uncovered evidence that the risk of breast
   cancer increases dramatically in women who have had abortions.
   However, some scientists dispute this."

And continuing on in the same vein.  This could well be a good,
balanced, newspaper article, with the reporter careful not to draw any
conclusions, always giving both assertions equal time, and so on.  It
would also be complete bollocks: because, by not explaining that there
is no link, that this is a fact and not just an assertion from certain
(probably pinko abortion-loving) scientists, the journalist is allowing
the reader to come away with the impression that there is a chance that
a connection exists between cancer and abortions.  The article really
needs to deny such a connection.

It would be NPOV to say "there is no link between cancer and abortions",
because there is *nothing wrong* with reporting *pure, undisputable
fact*.  It would not, however, be balanced.

>> We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a
>>  small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and
>> views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented
>> except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to
>> a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view,
>> might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims
>> to present competing views in proportion to their representation
>> among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties.
>
> Thanks, I'll bear this one in mind. Handy for a particular editing
> dispute I'm involved in...:)

Policy has its uses.  Not as many as I've been told, but they *are* out
there.

>> [0] Australia has its own absurd version.  Anyone remember that
>> fool Alston insisting that ABC News give the Coalition and Labor
>> "equal time", so that one is not unfairly promoted over the other?
>> Beautifully parodied (with dancing girls!) by /The Chaser/, way
>> back in ... whenever it was.  Too many Coalition govts, I've lost
>> count. 2001?  1998?
>
> Actually what's so absurd about that? I mean, assuming the commercial
>  networks were held to the same rule? It sort of seems reasonable
> that during an election that the two parties get equal time. It would
> be absurd if the Liberals, Nationals and Labor all demanded equal
> time :)
>
> I suppose one obvious flaw is you could spend 30 minutes talking
> about Labor's plans for Medicare then 30 minutes talking about John
> Howard's past mistakes or something.

Well, suppose one party were more newsworthy on a particular day?
"Labor today unveiled their plans for Medicare Platinum, which would
guarantee free health care for any Australian citizen or any non-citizen
who can sing 'Waltzing Matilda'.  Meanwile, the Liberals continue to set
up a dais of some description, which they have termed a 'stage', in
preparation for their big policy launch tomorrow night.  We'll cut to
Joe Bloggs for the financial news shortly, but don't worry, we'll have
more on this fascinating dais story later in the programme."

I trust the ABC to report fairly, accurately, and with the appropriate
amount of timing and emphasis on each story.  Neither the Coalition, nor
Labor --- at least, when in power --- agrees, largely because exposing
government lies is great when you're *not* the government, but otherwise
quite a drag.  Before Alston, I had never heard of anyone sitting and
watching with a stopwatch, to *literally* enforce "equal time".

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.3/281 - Release Date: 14/03/2006


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch Chinese Wikinews

body:
i understand brian's main point: the analogy in which a government deems
something harmful (either the substance harmful to the public or the
information harmful to the regime) and bans it, while there are enough
people who still want this stuff and in spite of the government's continuous
efforts and advancement in interception, there are constantly and more
advanced means available to obtain it.

however, i would like to steer away from the impression that we (both
wikimedia and its contributors) have anything to do with outlaws. accessing
and using blocked websites within PRC are not necessarily "breaking the law"
there, at least in the case of wikipedia/wikimedia.

PRC officials and official news media have repeatedly asserted that there
are no censorship laws at all in PRC. (indeed, such laws would be
unconstitutional, although there is no constitutional court in PRC since all
courts report to the people's congress, which functions mainly as the
legislature.) PRC censors do cite and claim their authority from several
regulations and executive rules, for example, the "regulation on protection
of security of computer information systems " (????????????????????) passed
by the state council in 1994, the "administrative rules for protecting
security of international networking of computer information systems"
(???????????????????) issued by the department of public safety in 1997, and
the "administrative rules for internet information services" (???????????)
passed by the state council in 2000. however, all these regulations and
rules are in essence "executive orders" instead of "laws," and i cannot find
any law of PRC that grants or authorizes the executive branch for issuing
these regulations/rules.

it is true that the standing committee of national people's congress, the
legislature, has released a document named "resolution on maintaining
internet security" (???????????????????) in 2000, but it is merely a
resolution (in form of interpreting the criminal law so the
constitutionality of this resolution is not easily disputed) instead of an
act or law of the people's congress.

i also would keep away from the implication that the legal system/conditions
of PRC are comparable to that of the freer countries. firstly, those
executive regulations/rules established without debate, approval, or
authorization from people's representatives are treated and applied as law
-- the "law" lacks both constitutionality and legitimacy. secondly, to this
day it remains unclear which governmental agency ordered ISPs to block
wikipedia and on what basis the order was, indeed it is not even proven
although obvious whether the government is involved in the unconnectivity --
the enforcement lacks forewarning and transparency. thirdly, there is
currently no practical way of suing, appealing, or seeking redress in PRC.

in addition, from my understanding of the afore mentioned regulations/rules,
even when a "harmful" website is identified and blocked, just viewing or
contributing to the "non-harmful" part of information does not seem to be
prohibited, and viewing "harmful" information alone (without disseminating
"state secrets") does not seem to be a criminal offense (although it is
possible to get fines or in serious cases removal of internet access for 6
months).

i hope that i did not sound too offending. if there were mistakes or
misinformation, please kindly let me know.

sincerely,

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

2006/3/14, Brian <brian0918 at gmail.com>:
> Internet access in China following government censorship is becoming
> like drug access in the US following the start of the War on Drugs. For
> those willing to break the law (ie: everyone), it's becoming easier and
> easier to get access to all the possibilities.
>
> R.O.C wrote:
>
> >i checked http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Vote/Zh and found more
> >than 10 users who are currently living in mainland. i think that
> >wikipedia/wikimedia can be accessed and edited from mainland china as
long
> >as the user knows how to use proxies or some special browsers.
> >
> >-roc
> >
> >2006/3/8, Anthere < Anthere9 at yahoo.com>:
> >
> >
> >>Erik Moeller wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Chinese Wikinews has long met the formal requirements of a new Wikinews
> >>>edition to be launched. There has now been another poll:
> >>>
> >>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Vote/Zh
> >>>
> >>>which currently has 36 votes in favor of launching, including many
> >>>Chinese Wikipedians, and only one (!) vote opposed. As per the voting
> >>>rules, given more than 90% support after a week of voting, this means
> >>>that the project can go ahead.
> >>>
> >>>Are there any objections from the Board to launching the project now?
If
> >>>I don't hear anything by the end of the week, I presume we can go ahead
> >>>and set up the site.
> >>>
> >>>Erik
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Do it.
> >>
> >>Ant
> >>
> >>PS : could mainland chinese vote since they are blocked ?
> >>(note that the answer will not change the statement above...)
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


list: wikimedia-l


subject:
[WikiEN-l] When Creative Commons
 Attribution-NoDerivs	2.5license makes sense

body:
G'day Phil,

> "Steve Bennett" <stevage at gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f1c3529e0603140537x739a1e9aq9e8df2e1ce3917c1 at mail.gmail.com...
>> On 3/14/06, Mark Gallagher <m.g.gallagher at student.canberra.edu.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Just a point ... there's no such thing as "html commands".
>>
>> Tell that to 351,000 google hits. By that measure we should create
>> [[HTML commands]] straight away. Anyway, it's just a question of
>> perspective. You could probably mount a case for saying that <IMG>
>> is a command that loads an image from disk, resizes it, adds a
>> border and displays it on the screen in a scrolly window!
>
> You would then be lynched by a rampaging mob of disrespectable C
> hackers who think it's disgraceful that HTML dweebs are allowed to
> call themselves "programmers".

Being an HTML dweeb myself, I'm unsure whether to agree entirely (HTML
is not programming), get irritated (only a very silly minority think of
themselves as "programmers"), or sit in the corner and cry (I don't know C).

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.3/281 - Release Date: 14/03/2006


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

body:
Mark Gallagher wrote:
> G'day Phil,
>
>
>>"Steve Bennett" <stevage at gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:f1c3529e0603140537x739a1e9aq9e8df2e1ce3917c1 at mail.gmail.com...
>>
>>>On 3/14/06, Mark Gallagher <m.g.gallagher at student.canberra.edu.au>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Just a point ... there's no such thing as "html commands".
>>>
>>>Tell that to 351,000 google hits. By that measure we should create
>>>[[HTML commands]] straight away. Anyway, it's just a question of
>>>perspective. You could probably mount a case for saying that <IMG>
>>>is a command that loads an image from disk, resizes it, adds a
>>>border and displays it on the screen in a scrolly window!
>>
>>You would then be lynched by a rampaging mob of disrespectable C
>>hackers who think it's disgraceful that HTML dweebs are allowed to
>>call themselves "programmers".
>
>
> Being an HTML dweeb myself, I'm unsure whether to agree entirely (HTML
> is not programming), get irritated (only a very silly minority think of
> themselves as "programmers"), or sit in the corner and cry (I don't know C).
>

HTML dweebs can become programmers if they learn PHP or Javascript... :)

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 558 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20060315/5ba8aa90/attachment.pgp


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource

body:
Yann Forget:
> Hi,
>
> And oh, I forgot to say that if the new rule is to apply French laws to French
> language projects, then first do it on the French Wikipedia, which goes
> against French laws in many ways, the first of all by allowing "fair use",
> then it would be proper to do it on Wikisource.

I think we need to ask two key questions in every case:

1) What is the nationality of the uploader?
2) What is the nationality of the copyright holder of the work?

If the answer to either of these question is "French", then it seems to
me that there is a risk for the uploader, the French Chapter, or the
U.S. Foundation to be sued in a French court.

To me, this is independent of the language of the Wikimedia project in
question; the French Wikipedia is not inherently tied to the nation of
France, nor is the English Wikipedia tied to the United States.

Since the text(s) you would like to see reproduced were written by a
French author, I would advise against hosting them on our servers for
that reason. It's quite simple: Unless we explicitly deny access to this
content from French users, we provide them with illegal copies of this
material, and a French court is likely to find so. Denying access in
this fashion would obviously be undesirable.

As for the "fair use" policy of the French Wikipedia, I believe that the
policies in question should not be applicable to material created by
French copyright holders, unless there is a similar applicable "fair
use" exemption in French copyright law. In general, uploaders of French
nationality should be made aware that they may be in violation of French
law if they upload copyrighted material to an American server under the
U.S. "fair use" doctrine.

I'm in favor of limited fair use on all projects, simply because there
are materials (logos, cartoon characters etc.) of which we will never be
able to obtain reproductions under free licenses. On the other hand,
making all fair use images go through a review process is probably a
good idea. We need to find a reasonable balance and strive for
harmonization of said balance across the Wikimedia projects.

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource


from_name: Steve Bennett

body:
On 3/15/06, Keith Old <keithold at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was one of those people who voted to delete this article and I stand by
> the vote although I sympathise with you.
>
> You could go to Deletion review. However, I suggested in the discussion that
> the subject could warrant a brief mention on the University of Melbourne
> article. However, unless it had members who went on to have notable musical
> careers or had some other form of impact on the wider world, I don't think
> it warrants a standalone article.

Hello,
  I appreciate the votes of sympathy here :)  Honestly, though, I've
been surprised that that article stood as long as it did. When I've
been considering notability on other things, I've always thought "but
hang on, *that* article is there...".  I really don't disagree with
the deletion in anyway...it's a shame, but I don't disagree. Sort of
like when the vet says your pet dog should be put down, I guess.

I think in this case it might be worth creating a University of
Melbourne Clubs and Societies article, because I could mount a genuine
case that the C&S at U of M actually *are* notable as a group.

Hmm...now, re-reading the article (thanks very much Ben), I'm
wondering if the club *isn't* notable, as a community music group,
rather than as a university society. It's true, societies are a dime a
dozen. But community music groups that anyone can join (it's open to
non-students) are rare, and there can't be many of this size (around
200 members). *thinking music*

Steve


subject: [Wikipedia-l] exicornt switch

body:
Gerben van der Stouwe wrote:
> One thing i can think of is making that page with a space in it or a
> redirect to the mainpage. Then lock it. That way the vandal won't be
> able to disrupt that article again. Of course usefull additions can't be
> made as well but its the only viable solution I can think of, as
> blocking AOL is definitly not what we want, isn't it.

On en.wp there is a template, {{deletedpage}}:

"This page has been deleted, and should not be re-created without a good
reason."

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 558 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20060315/80db2759/attachment.pgp


body:
On 3/15/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>   An article dear to my heart (well, more an article about a subject
> dear to my heart) has apparently recently deleted for non-notability.
> Although I actually agree with that designation, I suddenly sympathise
> with anyone who's had an article deleted! Particularly some of the
> (good faith) remarks made on the AfD page like "Delete. It still
> amazes me some of the topics that people think are notable." -
>
> Just wondering whether it's possible for me to get the content (and if
> possible, history) of the article back? There are probably more
> appropriate places to host it. Or maybe even trim it down and merge it
> into some other article.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Engineering_Music_Society
>
I'd just like to say I think it's pathetic this was deleted.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page protection vs. semi-protection

body:
On 3/15/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> It shouldn't become more difficult because editing would require
> engaging a thicket of non-human-understandable templates or dealing
> with a 100,000 word document, or satisfying anything other than
> objective criteria to make a change.
>
> If Wikipedia articles get frozen in stone we lose in the long run.

The devil's advocate might ask, what changes need to be made to
[[George W Bush]] that aren't getting made because it's all too much
hard work?

In other words, the semi-protected articles probably *are* approaching
perfection. In as much as GWB can ever be perfect.

Steve


from_name: Kat Walsh

body:
On 3/15/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hmm...now, re-reading the article (thanks very much Ben), I'm
> wondering if the club *isn't* notable, as a community music group,
> rather than as a university society. It's true, societies are a dime a
> dozen. But community music groups that anyone can join (it's open to
> non-students) are rare, and there can't be many of this size (around
> 200 members). *thinking music*

Community music groups that anyone can join are rare? I've only been a
member of one with over 200 members, probably over 300 -- the others
had about 80 -- but they weren't unusual and I wouldn't call any of
them notable; they'd probably merit mention in the articles about the
town or university they were based in, though.

Not that I would nominate an article on one for deletion if it showed
up, of course -- I'd leave that dirty work to someone else!

-Kat

--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mindspillage | (G)AIM:LucidWaking
"Once you have tasted flight you will always walk with your eyes cast
upward. For there you have been and there you will always be."
- Leonardo da Vinci


from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Europanto

body:
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
> Servien Ilaino wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>>
>> Ich ne denk pas that een Europanto Wikipedia ist een bon idee, een couple de
>> spr?ker sollen be gebruikt und rien ne sollen pas het f?rst?r.
>>
>> It's more like a fun language, but as I said some languages will be used
>> more than others, it also seems like a project which is more intended for
>> fun than a serious encyclopedia.
>>
>>
>
> Perhaps a Wikicity?
>
>
As I said when this was last brought up, it should only take the writing
of a fairly simple script, and you can munge en: and Wiktionary more or
less instantly into over 1,000,000 Europanto articles. Given that, why
bother? In my opinion, once you've realized this, the task becomes about
as interesting as Sudoku does once you've written a constraint-search
solver.

-- Neil


subject: [Wikitech-l] Multilingual MediaWiki under development

body:
I'd like to inform you that code according to the specifications at

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Multilingual_MediaWiki

is now under development by Dominic Arkwright, an experienced PHP/MySQL
developer who is new to MediaWiki. Dominic may pop up on IRC or on this
mailing list to ask questions. If you haven't done so, I invite you
again to review the specifications above and make comments on the talk page.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Europanto

body:
Just take random words from different European languages. Most
Europanto texts seem to be a sort of Belgian mixed language of mostly
French, Dutch, and German, with a fair bit of English and Spanish
thrown in for good measure.

I'm sure there are some common threads -- for example, perhaps people
use "huis" more than "house", or perhaps the most common definite
article is "le". Beyond some very weak trends, I would suspect that
all of the stronger trends vary from person to person -- I, for
example, tend to use more English although I make a conscious effort
to replace English words I've already written with words in other
languages. Other people, however, tend not to take such care and end
up using Europanto "dialects" which are clearly influenced more by
their native language.

Mark

On 15/03/06, Ilya N. <ilyanep at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there even a set vocabulary, or does one simply just take random
> words from different European languages?
>
> Ich puedo do ?so. ??K?nnen Tu?
>
> On 3/15/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree here, although it would be interesting if somebody wrote a
> > Europanto script.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 15/03/06, Neil Harris <usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
> > > > Servien Ilaino wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hoi,
> > > >>
> > > >> Ich ne denk pas that een Europanto Wikipedia ist een bon idee, een
> > couple de
> > > >> spr?ker sollen be gebruikt und rien ne sollen pas het f?rst?r.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's more like a fun language, but as I said some languages will be
> > used
> > > >> more than others, it also seems like a project which is more intended
> > for
> > > >> fun than a serious encyclopedia.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps a Wikicity?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > As I said when this was last brought up, it should only take the writing
> > > of a fairly simple script, and you can munge en: and Wiktionary more or
> > > less instantly into over 1,000,000 Europanto articles. Given that, why
> > > bother? In my opinion, once you've realized this, the task becomes about
> > > as interesting as Sudoku does once you've written a constraint-search
> > > solver.
> > >
> > > -- Neil
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> ~Ilya N.
> http://w3stuff.com/ilya/ (My website; DarkLordFoxx Media)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ilyanep (on Wikipedia)
> http://www.wheresgeorge.com - Track your money's travels.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Rich Morin wrote:
> The following is a sparse list of lists.  The top level is
> made up of table names.  The second level is made up of
> column names.  A column name is only included if I can't
> find a specific, complete comment about it (or if I'm not
> sure I understand the situation).  All tables are listed,
> as a check that I haven't missed anything.
>
> I have tried to make up some comments, which are flagged
> with "???", _???_, etc.
>
> -r
>
>
>  archive

Again, *please* read the file, it already is heavily documented!

--
-- Holding area for deleted articles, which may be viewed
-- or restored by admins through the Special:Undelete interface.
-- The fields generally correspond to the page, revision, and text
-- fields, with several caveats.
--

Scrolling down again I see over and over requests for things that are already
documented in the file. Please read it first! This is why we referred you to it!

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 249 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20060315/fc97a2f0/attachment.pgp>


body:
The Cunctator wrote:
> After whining about [[Guantanamo Bay Naval Base]] I was wondering if
> it would be possible to develop a split or clone tool; like the move
> tool but would allow a new page to be generated with the same history
> as the other one.

Special:Export and start your own private wiki.

> I hate copying off tons of text from GBNB and losing the history; with
> the clone/split tool I wouldn't have that problem. I'd think it would
> be comparatively easy to implement in some clever fashion ??

Obviously duplicating tens of thousands of revisions of page history on
Wikipedia would be incredibly wasteful and expensive.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 249 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20060315/6c836446/attachment.pgp>


from_name: GerardM

subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource

body:
Hoi,
The idea of fair use is broken when you make it as complicated as
this.Things are broken. They are broken because on the one hand the
en:wikipedia does not want to give something up ie "fair use"  and on
the other hand we do not want to consider licenses for Commons that
are legal, that allow us to have content that only the en:wikipedia
now has because of "fair use".

There is nothing fair about having content under "fair use" while it
cannot be had under a ND license and have it legally available for
other projects. In a previous threat about fair use people decided
that they do not want to hear about this.. That is an en:POV and it
makes for a parochical POV not the POV that does justice to the needs
of other projects ...

Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/15/06, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Yann Forget:
> > Hi,
> >
> > And oh, I forgot to say that if the new rule is to apply French laws to French
> > language projects, then first do it on the French Wikipedia, which goes
> > against French laws in many ways, the first of all by allowing "fair use",
> > then it would be proper to do it on Wikisource.
>
> I think we need to ask two key questions in every case:
>
> 1) What is the nationality of the uploader?
> 2) What is the nationality of the copyright holder of the work?
>
> If the answer to either of these question is "French", then it seems to
> me that there is a risk for the uploader, the French Chapter, or the
> U.S. Foundation to be sued in a French court.
>
> To me, this is independent of the language of the Wikimedia project in
> question; the French Wikipedia is not inherently tied to the nation of
> France, nor is the English Wikipedia tied to the United States.
>
> Since the text(s) you would like to see reproduced were written by a
> French author, I would advise against hosting them on our servers for
> that reason. It's quite simple: Unless we explicitly deny access to this
> content from French users, we provide them with illegal copies of this
> material, and a French court is likely to find so. Denying access in
> this fashion would obviously be undesirable.
>
> As for the "fair use" policy of the French Wikipedia, I believe that the
> policies in question should not be applicable to material created by
> French copyright holders, unless there is a similar applicable "fair
> use" exemption in French copyright law. In general, uploaders of French
> nationality should be made aware that they may be in violation of French
> law if they upload copyrighted material to an American server under the
> U.S. "fair use" doctrine.
>
> I'm in favor of limited fair use on all projects, simply because there
> are materials (logos, cartoon characters etc.) of which we will never be
> able to obtain reproductions under free licenses. On the other hand,
> making all fair use images go through a review process is probably a
> good idea. We need to find a reasonable balance and strive for
> harmonization of said balance across the Wikimedia projects.
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Europanto

references:
<33ac2c150602031620q2df3e4eg@mail.gmail.com>	<43E404BA.20706@pobox.com>
	<3413774.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<eb1ae9ed0603150454k365eddd8y@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Servien Ilaino wrote:
> Hoi,
>
> Ich ne denk pas that een Europanto Wikipedia ist een bon idee, een couple de
> spr?ker sollen be gebruikt und rien ne sollen pas het f?rst?r.
>
> It's more like a fun language, but as I said some languages will be used
> more than others, it also seems like a project which is more intended for
> fun than a serious encyclopedia.
>

Perhaps a Wikicity?

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 558 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20060315/f8f3d05c/attachment.pgp


from_name: Rob Church

body:
1. Yes, see the tables.sql files for 1.6 (available from CVS, but wait
a few, SourceForge has anon. access down for 48 hours or so)

2. It should be there in the comments. Are there specific entries
without comments?

3. Not a clue. If a search produces nothing, I guess not.

4. Some user created them; that much is evident from the upload
summaries. Who and how, we don't know. Ask them. :)

5 & 6. (Skipped these :P)

7. A user's talk page is editable like any other discussion page, but
has an added quirk. When a page in the user talk namespace is changed,
a flag is set on the corresponding user's account indicating such.
That user then receives a "new messages" notification upon their next
page view, and can go and see what's been changed on their talk page.

Rob Church

On 15/03/06, Rich Morin <rdm at cfcl.com> wrote:
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
> At 5:57 PM -0800 3/12/06, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > We've already provided documentation, so if you have specific
> > questions after reading these documents, you'll need to go
> > ahead and actually ask them... :)
>
> Works for me...
>
> -r
>
>
> Q:  Are there any changes in the DB schema for MW 1.6?
>
>
> Q:  Is there any column-level documentation of the tables?
>
>     What I'd like is a 1-2 line definition of each column, with
>     extra attention paid to foreign keys, etc.  If there isn't
>     such a resource, at present, I'd be willing to set up some
>     templates and keep track (at least, initially :-) of the
>     submitted definitions.
>
>
> Q:  Are ERDs available for 1.5.X and/or 1.6?
>
>     http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:DER_Mediawiki.PNG
>
>
> Q:  Where did the ERDs come from?
>
>     The page doesn't indicate the image's provenance, save for:
>
>       * (del) (cur) 15:18, 7 November 2005 . . Lamassa (Talk)
>         . . 870x424 (15614 bytes) (Diagram Entity Relationship
>         from the mediawiki database 1.4.X)
>
>     I'd like to know how it was generated, by whom, etc.
>
>
> Q:  General "image map" comment/question
>
>     Although the ERD Diagram, is an image map, it has only one
>     "region".  Is there a convention for using multi-region image
>     maps?  On a diagram such as this, one possibility is to make
>     the  "background" link to the "Image" page.
>
>
> Q:  Speculative "image map" comment/question
>
>     Would you like to have the icons (and perhaps, edges) on the
>     ERD Diagram link to specific pages?  Pop-ups could give short
>     descriptions of each item.  And, if you want to get fancy, an
>     image-mapped diagram of the "local neighborhood".
>
>     FWIW, I did something very similar to this for a NASA project:
>
>       http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/glast/flight/web/a_pnp/Pack_LSE.shtml
>       http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/glast/flight/web/e_tut/diagrams.shtml
>       http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/MBD/mbd_cs_fsw.php
>
>
> Q:  What is the story on "User_Talk:Foo" links/pages?
>
>     The User_talk:Lamassa link brings up a non-existent page.
>     Is this a way to send a note to "Lamassa"?  (The page gives
>     no hints.)  If not, what is it and where is it documented?
>
>
> That should get us started (:-).
>
> -r
> --
> http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
> http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
> http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841
>
> Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: grok at resist.ca

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> The Cunctator wrote:
> > After whining about [[Guantanamo Bay Naval Base]] I was
> > wondering if it would be possible to develop a split or
> > clone tool; like the move tool but would allow a new
> > page to be generated with the same history as the other
> > one.
>
> Special:Export and start your own private wiki.

I asked for this exact same feature a few months ago, and I
gave a good explanation as to why it is a good idea. This
reply, however, is glib and facile -- and not really a reply
at all. But at least Cunctator got a developer's attention.

Fact is, a clone feature is sorely needed, for more reasons
than just differences of opinion. And it need not be enabled
by default, for instance. Bottom line: it allows forking of
pages which should be forked.

I also proposed a 'merge' function to balance this
capability. But that is a secondary issue at this point.

- -- grok.

- --
*** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! ***************************************
*          Boycott the Bourgeois Economy: BUY PROGRESSIVE          *
****** Critical endorsement only ***** Gift-giving Year-round ******
*  Palestine Children*s Welfare Fund Gift Shop & Bookstore:        *
*  http://www.paypalestine.com                                     *
*  Cafe Justicia: Fair Trade Guatemalan coffee -- direct:          *
*  http://ccda.galeon.com/cafe_comp_ing.htm                        *
*  Ten Thousand Villages: Fair Trade virtual marketplace:          *
*  http://tenthousandvillages.com                                  *
*  No Sweat Apparel: Sweatshop-free union-made clothing:           *
*  http://www.nosweatapparel.com                                   *
****  The streets are where the subjective meets the objective  ****
GPG fingerprint = 2830 CEE8 4B63 72A0 F86E  622D 6245 9357 A705 91FA
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFEGRhMYkWTV6cFkfoRAt5JAKCm6T29zORAWdA25PdxHqAJd+C+VQCgygNU
jMO6UeBVUZfWHrRqvPsJNPQ=
=btPG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource

body:
GerardM:
> There is nothing fair about having content under "fair use" while it
> cannot be had under a ND license and have it legally available for
> other projects. In a previous threat about fair use people decided
> that they do not want to hear about this.. That is an en:POV and it
> makes for a parochical POV not the POV that does justice to the needs
> of other projects ...

Fair use should only be used when there is absolutely no chance that we
will get the content under a free license. I disagree with using a photo
of a living celebrity under "fair use", for example; I'd much rather see
"Wikimedia celebrity hunts" organized, as long as we make it clear that
we're talking about taking photos. ;-) It might also be worth
investigating how much it would cost to purchase the right to publish
photos that interest us under a free license.

The advocates of allowing ND seem to be in favor of putting it on the
same level as our free content licenses. This is a dangerous path to
follow, as it disincentivizes the use of less restrictive licenses.
Available statistics from Flickr and Creative Commons show that, when
given the choice, users are inclined to disallow derivative works or
commercial use, simply because they do not understand the complexity of
license incompatibility, and the illusion of additional control over a
work is not without appeal. Therefore it makes sense for the project to
clearly focus on a narrow definition of "free content".

On the other hand, if we allow ND in "very rare special circumstances",
we will find that they are likely to be the same under which we would
allow fair use, and there's no need for the special exception.

I agree with you that we should avoid a situation where the English
Wikipedia is allowed exceptionally broad fair use privileges, whereas
other projects are exceptionally restrictive. Harmonization is key.

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource


body:
Ok, we were arguing different things. I was saying that it's
acceptable that an article like GWB become more diffficult to edit.
You're saying that it's not acceptable that it become frozen.

Steve

On 3/15/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/15/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 3/15/06, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It shouldn't become more difficult because editing would require
> > > engaging a thicket of non-human-understandable templates or dealing
> > > with a 100,000 word document, or satisfying anything other than
> > > objective criteria to make a change.
> > >
> > > If Wikipedia articles get frozen in stone we lose in the long run.
> >
> > The devil's advocate might ask, what changes need to be made to
> > [[George W Bush]] that aren't getting made because it's all too much
> > hard work?
> >
> > In other words, the semi-protected articles probably *are* approaching
> > perfection. In as much as GWB can ever be perfect.
> >
> Wouldn't be a very good devil's advocate. There's been millions of
> consequences of the Bush presidency, and millions to come. Until the
> corpus of George W. Bush-related entries covers all of them, the
> articles won't be perfect. As the gateway to that information,
> [[George W. Bush]] will constantly need to change.
>
> Or shorter: W. still has two years to go in his presidency. An article
> about W. that stopped history at 2006 would be strangely incomplete.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Delphine Ménard

subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource

body:
On 3/15/06, ! Chris Sherlock <ta.bu.shi.da.yu at gmail.com> wrote:

> I was under the impression that the U.S. had treaties with France and in
> some circumstances will honour their laws. Is this the case or not?

Cicular 38b blablabla. See above in the thread.

Cheers,

Delphine
--
~notafish


subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource


from_name: Patrick, Brad

body:
News to me.  I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
unlicensed use of WMF copyright material.  Did someone ask and I missed
it?

And someone we know will probably have a fit re: design guidelines.

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Erik Moeller
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:10 AM
To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Just seen on Wikinews:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Ko
ng

Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?

Erik
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer under IRS Circular 230: Unless expressly stated otherwise in this transmission, nothing contained in this message is intended or written to be used, nor may it be relied upon or used, (1) by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended and/or (2) by any person to support the promotion or marketing of or to recommend any Federal tax transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this message.

If you desire a formal opinion on a particular tax matter for the purpose of avoiding the imposition of any penalties, we will discuss the additional Treasury requirements that must be met and whether it is possible to meet those requirements under the circumstances, as well as the anticipated time and additional fees involved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Confidentiality Disclaimer: This e-mail message and any attachments are private communication sent by a law firm, Fowler White Boggs Banker P.A., and may contain confidential, legally privileged information meant solely for the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, then delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system. Thank you.


subject: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2006-03-16

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

Running test BUG 361: URL within URL, not bracketed... FAILED!
Running test External links: invalid character... FAILED!
Running test Bug 2702: Mismatched <i> and <a> tags are invalid... FAILED!
Running test A table with no data.... FAILED!
Running test A table with nothing but a caption... FAILED!
Running test Link containing "#<" and "#>" % as a hex sequences... FAILED!
Running test Template with thumb image (wiht link in description)... FAILED!
Running test Link to image page... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887: A ISBN with a thumbnail... FAILED!
Running test BUG 1887: A <math> with a thumbnail... FAILED!
Running test BUG 561: {{/Subpage}}... FAILED!
Running test Simple category... FAILED!
Running test Basic section headings... FAILED!
Running test Section headings with TOC... FAILED!
Running test Handling of sections up to level 6 and beyond... FAILED!
Running test Resolving duplicate section names... FAILED!
Running test Template with sections, __NOTOC__... FAILED!
Running test Link inside a section heading... FAILED!
Running test Media link with nasty text... FAILED!
Running test Bug 2095: link with pipe and three closing brackets... FAILED!
Running test Parser hook: static parser hook inside a comment... FAILED!
Running test Sanitizer: Validating the contents of the id attribute (bug 4515)... FAILED!

Passed 266 of 288 tests (92.36%) FAILED!


subject: [Wikitech-l] CVS snapshots

body:
Since SourceForge's anonymous CVS servers have been on the fritz for a couple
days, I'll be periodically uploading snapshot tarballs of the source from CVS
HEAD here until it's fixed or we give up on it:

http://download.wikimedia.org/mediawiki/snapshot/

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 249 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20060316/c852f2c9/attachment.pgp>


subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource

body:
Hoi,
When we allow ND and possibly other specific licenses in those
circumstances where we allow some "fair use" on the English Wikipedia
we have several important improvements;
* The person or organisation that is entitled to license did the licensing
* The content can be used by all projects and not just the en:wikipedia

With our current practices organisations like Kennisnet would like to
see their logo with the Wikipedia article, they cannot allow us to
have it on Commons because it is a logo and it part of their trade
mark and consequently it restrict its usage. Kennisnet is not alone in
this. We need a license that allows for this. So far I only hear
arguments that we do not really want ND or fair use. And I largely
agree. But I do not hear anything what helps us solve the situation.
The ideology is first and foremost about creating encyclopedias in
many languages. Our ideology is in bringing the best information to
the people of this world in their language. It is important that this
information is free. But the freedoms associated with our content are
not all equally important. When particular data or images is ND, or
where the use is by necessity limiting the freedom associated with it
but allows for the legal distribution commercially it is in line with
what the Wikimedia Foundation stands for.

What are the arguments that speak in favour of "fair use" and are
against targeted use of ND and other specific licenses that allow for
the legal use that "fair use" denies us. What are these arguments but
dogma. Dogma that has precious little to do with what the WMF stands
for, believes in?

Thanks,
    GerardM

On 3/15/06, Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> GerardM:
> > There is nothing fair about having content under "fair use" while it
> > cannot be had under a ND license and have it legally available for
> > other projects. In a previous threat about fair use people decided
> > that they do not want to hear about this.. That is an en:POV and it
> > makes for a parochical POV not the POV that does justice to the needs
> > of other projects ...
>
> Fair use should only be used when there is absolutely no chance that we
> will get the content under a free license. I disagree with using a photo
> of a living celebrity under "fair use", for example; I'd much rather see
> "Wikimedia celebrity hunts" organized, as long as we make it clear that
> we're talking about taking photos. ;-) It might also be worth
> investigating how much it would cost to purchase the right to publish
> photos that interest us under a free license.
>
> The advocates of allowing ND seem to be in favor of putting it on the
> same level as our free content licenses. This is a dangerous path to
> follow, as it disincentivizes the use of less restrictive licenses.
> Available statistics from Flickr and Creative Commons show that, when
> given the choice, users are inclined to disallow derivative works or
> commercial use, simply because they do not understand the complexity of
> license incompatibility, and the illusion of additional control over a
> work is not without appeal. Therefore it makes sense for the project to
> clearly focus on a narrow definition of "free content".
>
> On the other hand, if we allow ND in "very rare special circumstances",
> we will find that they are likely to be the same under which we would
> allow fair use, and there's no need for the special exception.
>
> I agree with you that we should avoid a situation where the English
> Wikipedia is allowed exceptionally broad fair use privileges, whereas
> other projects are exceptionally restrictive. Harmonization is key.
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright on Wikisource


subject: [Wikitech-l] wikipedia search logs and clickthrough data

body:
Kraaij, W. (Wessel) wrote:
> I was wondering whether search logs on wikipedia and the corresponding
> clickthrough data, (e.g. disambiguation pages etc) coulde be made
> available to the research community in an anonymized form (e.g. with the
> IP address mapped to a unique number).

We don't keep such logs at this time. There is no record of clickthroughs.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 249 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20060316/368f006b/attachment.pgp>


body:
i was also wondering whether it is fit to use "wikimania" for local or
regional wikimedia conferences that are not organized directly by the
foundation. what's the position of the foundation about the use of
"wikimania"?

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

2006/3/16, Patrick, Brad <bpatrick at fowlerwhite.com>:
>
> News to me.  I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
> unlicensed use of WMF copyright material.  Did someone ask and I missed
> it?
>
> And someone we know will probably have a fit re: design guidelines.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
> [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Erik Moeller
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:10 AM
> To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"
>
> Just seen on Wikinews:
>
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Ko
> ng
>
> Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
> Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Disclaimer under IRS Circular 230: Unless expressly stated otherwise in
> this transmission, nothing contained in this message is intended or written
> to be used, nor may it be relied upon or used, (1) by any taxpayer for the
> purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer under the
> Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended and/or (2) by any person to
> support the promotion or marketing of or to recommend any Federal tax
> transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this message.
>
> If you desire a formal opinion on a particular tax matter for the purpose
> of avoiding the imposition of any penalties, we will discuss the additional
> Treasury requirements that must be met and whether it is possible to meet
> those requirements under the circumstances, as well as the anticipated time
> and additional fees involved.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Confidentiality Disclaimer: This e-mail message and any attachments are
> private communication sent by a law firm, Fowler White Boggs Banker P.A.,
> and may contain confidential, legally privileged information meant solely
> for the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately
> by replying to this message, then delete the e-mail and any attachments from
> your system. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?

just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the world,
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia (along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.

the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were beijing,
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a conference
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but there
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.

-roc (User:R.O.C)

2006/3/16, Angela <beesley at gmail.com>:
>  I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
> and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
> prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
> each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
>
> Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>  http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Samuel Klein

subject: [Foundation-l] Wiki conferences this August, and logos (fwd msg)

body:
[resending to foundation-l]

August seems to be "Wiki conference month"  this year : WikiSym is
moved back to Aug 21-23 (in Odense), and both Dutch Wikimedians (ca.
August 20) and Chinese Wikimedians (August 27-29) are arranging
August meetups around Wikimania.  I like the familiar look of the
Chinese page... ;-)  but there are logo / name issues involved.

How should such events be named?  The Dutch event gets "Wikimedia
Conference" in there.  'Wikimania' is a nice nickname for the global
conference; it might be useful if it were unique.  But it would also
be nice to have a way of indicating solidarity among other related
events.   (For geeks in the US, think 'Foo Camp' vs. 'Bar Camp')

http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83/en

Below is an email sent by Siriudie from Chinese Wikipedia to the
foundation, asking whether they could use a derivative of the
foundation logo for their satellite event... which raises the
question: what do we want to do for Wikimania proper?  Does it make
sense to have a separate icon for Wikimania, in addition to the
(unaltered) Wikimedia logo?  There was a recent suggestion that we use
a version of Ben Yates' swoosh logo for Wikimania:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_ideas/Cafe_Press#Print-On-Demand_or_not.3F

Regards,
   SJ

On 3/13/06, wikimania-l-bounces at wikipedia.org
<wikimania-l-bounces at wikipedia.org> wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Wikimedia Foundation <board at wikimedia.org>
> To: siriudie at mail.sdu.edu.cn
> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 17:35:44 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Ticket#2006031310004535] Request for grant of the logo.
> Dear Siriudie,
>
> Thank you for your mail.
>
> I forward it to wikimania mailing list, because I am not entirely sure what
> you mean by Chinese Wikimania 2006. They will certainly be able to help you.
>
> Greetings
> Anthere
>
> Siriudie <siriudie at gmail.com> ?crit:
>
> > Dear Sir,
> >
> > I am a wikipedian from China. And "Chinese Wikimania 2006" is now under
> > preparation. So, I modify the logo of WIKIMEDIA FOUNDATION for the logo for
> > "Chinese Wikimania 2006".Someone tell me that I should be authorized by
> > WIKIMEDIA FOUNDATION before we use it, so that I'm writing to request for
> > grant.
> >
> > Yours Sincerely.
> >
> > *Siriudie*
> >
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Florence Devouard
>
> --
> Wikimedia Foundation
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/


from_name: SJ

body:
On 3/16/06, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/16/06, R. O. C <sdnyroc at gmail.com> wrote:
> > what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
>
> That seems a better solution than using "Wikimania" for more than one
> conference. I expect the Trademark Committee would be happy to grant
> the rights for the use of "Wikimedia" in that context, though soufron
> et al would need to confirm that.

And as with "Wikimedia Conference Netherlands".  What is the standard
way of asking this of the trademark committee?

Anthere writes:
> I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)

Oh yes... :-)  Even some who will make it to both events, and provide
cross-pollination.

SJ


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
On 3/15/06, Death Phoenix <originaldeathphoenix at gmail.com> wrote:
> Me too. Basically, anyone listed in [[:Category: User undeletion]], which is
> linked to {{user recovery}} (note: this is NOT a userbox).

Oh yes it is!  It doesn't actually contain a table and there aren't
any colors, but the purpose and usage are exactly the same.  Just
because something doesn't *look* like a userbox, doesn't mean it isn't
a userbox.  A the creator of that particular template, *I* should
know.


body:
I'd say that this article should *never* have been listed for
deletion. As an article about a fairly longlived students' society
with several established orchestras, bands and whatnot that have given
public performances, it should have been merged to the parent article
about the University.

This is what is so frustrating about the deletion process.  Absence of
thought is endemic.


from_name: Keith Old

body:
On 3/16/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>   An article dear to my heart (well, more an article about a subject
> dear to my heart) has apparently recently deleted for non-notability.
> Although I actually agree with that designation, I suddenly sympathise
> with anyone who's had an article deleted! Particularly some of the
> (good faith) remarks made on the AfD page like "Delete. It still
> amazes me some of the topics that people think are notable." -
>
> Just wondering whether it's possible for me to get the content (and if
> possible, history) of the article back? There are probably more
> appropriate places to host it. Or maybe even trim it down and merge it
> into some other article.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Engineering_Music_Society
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

Steve,

I was one of those people who voted to delete this article and I stand by
the vote although I sympathise with you.

You could go to Deletion review. However, I suggested in the discussion that
the subject could warrant a brief mention on the University of Melbourne
article. However, unless it had members who went on to have notable musical
careers or had some other form of impact on the wider world, I don't think
it warrants a standalone article.

Regards

Keith Old


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Foundation-l] MobilED update

body:
Thank you for your email. I am happy to announce that the Special Projects
committee has taken responsibility for the MobilEd effort and that Jean
Baptiste  Soufron will chair our first subcommittee, which will be handling this. I
thank  everyone who has participated in this so far, and urge them to provide
Soufron  with all the information and support necessary to make this an
outstanding  example of collaboration between the Wikimedia Foundation and the other
participants in this exciting project.

Danny


subject: [Foundation-l] MobilED update


subject: [Wikipedia-l] [Foundation-l] MobilED update


body:
On 3/16/06, Patrick, Brad <bpatrick at fowlerwhite.com> wrote:
> News to me.  I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
> unlicensed use of WMF copyright material.  Did someone ask and I missed
> it?

Is there a FAQ about this for the unenlightened?  What classes of uses
require a license, and what classes do not? What's the right way to
get a license to use logos?

In the beginning there were Logos,
    SJ


body:
Theodoranian : cool; I hope to see you in Boston.  And best wishes for
a great event in HK.

> There seems to be a cultural gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".

Well, any time you get too many wikipedians together, something manic
is bound to happen...

SJ

On 3/16/06, THD <theodoranian at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, Ladies and all,
>
> I am Theodoranian from zh.wikipedia. I went to Frankfurt last year, and
> now I am thinking to go to Boston to join the 2006 wikimania.
>
> I want to explain the "2006 Chinese wikimania" to you.
> Actually, this annual conference is first-time-held this year, since
> Zh.wikipedians from
> China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and else places thought that there should be a
> meetup.
>
> The formal name of this meetup is "??????" in Chinese (which literally means
> "Chinese Wikimedia Annual Conference"), and we don't have an appropriate
> English
> name for it yet. Now, we are still thinking what would be good. However,
> somebody
> translated the "CWAC" into English as "Chinese wikimania". There seems to be
> a cultural
> gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".
>
> Just for your information.
>
> Theodoanian
>
> 2006/3/16, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com>:
> >
> > I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
> > I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
> > many people you could gather ?
> >
> > ant
> >
> > R.O.C wrote:
> > > what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
> > >
> > > just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the
> > world,
> > > not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
> > > "china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia(along
> > > with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
> > > taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
> > > expressed interests to attend.
> > >
> > > the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
> > > enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
> > > central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were
> > beijing,
> > > shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
> > > concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a
> > conference
> > > within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but
> > there
> > > is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
> > > issued to mainland chinese.
> > >
> > > -roc (User:R.O.C)
> > >
> > > 2006/3/16, Angela <beesley at gmail.com>:
> > >
> > >> I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
> > >>and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
> > >>prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
> > >>each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
> > >>
> > >>Angela.
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>foundation-l mailing list
> > >>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > >> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
++SJ


body:
i think so too, there is a huge cultural and language gap, many chinese
users have misunderstood the meaning of "wikimania" as simply a short word
for "wikimedia conference" or "wikimedia meetup" instead of "INTERNATIONAL
wikimedia conference" (of wikimedia foundation). most of them were not aware
that "wikimania" is a brand name and should be a trademark for the
foundation.

the chinese name for the chinese conference "??????" can be more precisely
translated as "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia annual conference".
since the english name is seeked largely to serve international
attenders/readers, i think that suggestions/advice from international users
on the mailing list would probably be helpful and productive. if you have
comments, please kindly send it to the wikizh-l list at
wikizh-l at wikipedia.org.

(i personally still favor "chinese wikimedia conference" if authorized by
the foundation, which seems likely.)

the planning of the chinese conference is still in the early stage. it's not
clear how many would attend, but personally i would not be surprised by a
number between 20 and 100. it will be held on august 26-27 after wikimania
in boston.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

? 2006/3/16?THD <theodoranian at gmail.com> ???
> Hi, Ladies and all,
>
> I am Theodoranian from zh.wikipedia. I went to Frankfurt last year, and
> now I am thinking to go to Boston to join the 2006 wikimania.
>
> I want to explain the "2006 Chinese wikimania" to you.
> Actually, this annual conference is first-time-held this year, since
> Zh.wikipedians from
> China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and else places thought that there should be a
> meetup.
>
> The formal name of this meetup is "??????" in Chinese (which literally
means
> "Chinese Wikimedia Annual Conference"), and we don't have an appropriate
> English
> name for it yet. Now, we are still thinking what would be good. However,
> somebody
> translated the "CWAC" into English as "Chinese wikimania". There seems to
be
> a cultural
> gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".
>
> Just for your information.
>
> Theodoanian
>
> 2006/3/16, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com>:
> >
> > I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
> > I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
> > many people you could gather ?
> >
> > ant
> >
> > R.O.C wrote:
> > > what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia
conference"?
> > >
> > > just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the
> > world,
> > > not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as
what
> > > "china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia
(along
> > > with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland
china,
> > > taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
> > > expressed interests to attend.
> > >
> > > the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong,
which
> > > enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
> > > central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were
> > beijing,
> > > shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
> > > concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a
> > conference
> > > within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but
> > there
> > > is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are
not
> > > issued to mainland chinese.
> > >
> > > -roc (User:R.O.C)
> > >
> > > 2006/3/16, Angela <beesley at gmail.com>:
> > >
> > >> I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
> > >>and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
> > >>prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
> > >>each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
> > >>
> > >>Angela.
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>foundation-l mailing list
> > >>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > >> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Just seen on Wikinews:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Kong

Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?

Erik


from_name: Anthony DiPierro

subject:
[WikiEN-l] When Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 2.5
	license makes sense

body:
On 3/14/06, Justin Cormack <justin at specialbusservice.com> wrote:
>
> On 14 Mar 2006, at 12:19, Anthony DiPierro wrote:
> >>
> >> Its not clear that you could even resize a CC-ND image under the
> >> license...
> >>
> > I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to resize using standard html
> > commands.  There's no permanence to the image created, so it's not a
> > derivative work.  What would be the fixed "size" of the image anyway?
> > Numbers measured in pixels?  I'd say there's no way such a resizing
> > would be protected.
>
> I was thinking of say for print, where a rescaled, colour adjusted and
> screened version might be considered derivative.
>
> Justinc

"The above rights may be exercised in all media and formats whether
now known or hereafter devised. The above rights include the right to
make such modifications as are technically necessary to exercise the
rights in other media and formats."

Anthony


subject: [Foundation-l] Fair use images

body:
On 3/14/06, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Anthony DiPierro wrote:
>
> >On 3/12/06, W. Guy Finley <wgfinley at dynascope.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Asserting "fair use" of an image is a nuanced legal concept that many
> >>editors cannot grasp so I feel something is needed to help rectify the
> >>situation.
> >>
> >>
> >There's far too much of a focus on what's legal and what isn't, and
> >far too little focus on what's free and what isn't.
> >
> You can't separate the two.  If it was perfectly legal in copyright law
> for anybody to upload anything we wouldn't be having this discussion.

As long as it remains illegal for others to redistribute that which
was uploaded, we still would.


subject: [Foundation-l] Fair use images


subject: [WikiEN-l] Phone calls

body:
On 3/14/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/14/06, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Can't. They will stay within policy. Blocking won't help anyway since
> > they can't disscuss while blocked.
>
> It's a real pity that it's not possible to selectively block a single
> editor against a single page. That and the fact that blocking an IP
> also blocks registered users that use that IP.
>
> Steve

FWIW, I completely disagree.  I think blocks should be all or nothing
(certainly technical ones, but I'd include soft blocks too, though not
of course self-imposed blocks).  Besides filling the code and the
policies with unnecessary bloat, narrow blocking tends to give admins
too much power to dictate content.

If it weren't for the latter consideration, it would be really easy to
soft-block an editor from a particular page anyway.  Block them for 5
minutes with a message on their talk page to stop editing that page.
Then block them more permanently if they ignore that command.  But IMO
admins shouldn't have that power in the first place.  All Wikipedians
should be equal (which isn't the same as saying that all people have
the right to be Wikipedians).

Now I suppose I'm breaking my rule when I say that I can understand an
exception for allowing talk on the users own talk page.  And
semi-protection/lessened powers for new contributors seems like an
acceptable solution for guarding against sockpuppets, though of course
its effectiveness is dependent on a decent implementation.

Anthony


subject: [WikiEN-l] Phone calls

body:
On 3/14/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Anthony DiPierro wrote:
> > On 3/13/06, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On 3/13/06, Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal at inbox.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>>(now that semi-protection exists I can't personally think of a scenario where
> >>>full protection is *ever* a good idea).
> >>
> >>I take it you don't agree with protecting articles that are the
> >>subject of an edit war between established editors?
> >>
> >>-Matt
> >
> >
> > No, I think it's better to temporarily block those established editors
> > for edit warring.  Why block *everyone* from editing an article just
> > because two people can't get along?  But like I said, that one's
> > arguable.
> >
>
> Because if two (or more) people have come to the point of
> I'll-revert-you-every-thirty-seconds edit warring, they probably won't
> be averse to finding an undocumented open proxy, creating sockpuppets,
> and continuing on their merry way...
>
Actually I think the number of people who are going to go through all
that trouble is much smaller than the number who are going to get
involved in an edit war.