subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage

body:
Hi Boris,

I personally think that if in that sample the only extreme differences
are "mer" and the future tense, this should not be insurmountable.

Brazilian and Iberian Portuguese similarly have some vast differences
in verb conjugations (although they use the same orthography...), yet
they have a single Wikipedia.

I'm sure many Portuguese people are a little bit annoyed when they see
people using the second-person singular conjugations for both
second-person singular and second-person plural... but then, they're a
little bit used to it since Portuguese often visit Brazilian websites,
read Brazilian books, watch Brazilian movies... and vice-versa but to
a lesser degree.

Nevertheless, the fact alone that you were able to identify it as the
future tense (as opposed to just completely not knowing) counts for
something.

Surely, although it might be a bit annoying at first, such a
linguistic difference as use or non-use of the future tense is
surmountable.

Mark

On 05/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Servien!
>
> Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattd??tsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.
>
> Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:
>
> "Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> k?mmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "h?yl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "w?yrden" also omitted here> s?nnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>
>
> Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattd??tsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "?" or an "u" there?) for "k?mmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.
>
> Boris
>
> Servien Ilaino <servien at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:
>
> Hi Boris,
>
> The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne
> Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't
> seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I
> must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then
> the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are
> completely unknown to me...)
>
> Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system:
> As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny h?yl bruyn w?yrden
> mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
>
> And here in the traditional one:
> As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n
> mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
>
> This is the one I use:
> As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden
> mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and
> a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the
> word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because
> bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
>
> (Translation of the text:
> If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look,
> but will be pale white.)
>
> Servien
>
> 2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de>:
> >
> > > Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
> >
> > Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
> >
> >
> > > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> > > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
> >
> > Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
> >
> > Coming from the "?nner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
> >
> > Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de ?nnerelv (in Hamborg un ?mto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in d?sse/s?kse F?llen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
> >
> > Hmm...
> >
> > Boris
> >
> > Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
> >
> > Hi Boris,
> >
> > I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
> > people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
> > Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
> > wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
> > is "based on Missingsch".
> >
> > Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
> > actually ken the leid.
> > (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
> >
> > "It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
> > WikiPlatt team.  Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.  But
> > they don't know the language well enough.  Much or most of it is
> > "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
> > German.  I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
> > but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
> > the grammar and the authentic idiom."
> >
> > Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
> > would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
> > and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
> > only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
> > German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
> >
> > This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
> > difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
> > just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
> > welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
> >
> > Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
> > the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
> >
> > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> >
> > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de ?nner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
> > kuntray) ook seggen.  "Wat" kan daar in s?kse vellen lyk as "dat" un
> > "dey" bruken.  I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
> >
> > Hmm...
> >
> > Best
> > Mark
> >
> > On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger at web.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Mark!
> > >
> > > I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattd??tsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Nordd??tsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
> > >
> > > I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However,  I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
> > >
> > > Boris
> > >
> > > Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
> > >
> > > Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
> > > ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
> > > nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
> > > personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
> > > nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
> > > rather a "contact variety".
> > >
> > > Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
> > > huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
> > > fact that it's written in Missingsch.
> > >
> > > Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
> > > real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________________
> > > Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
> > > Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
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--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: JAY JG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
>From: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>
>I suggest you
>drop any stereotypes you may hold and respond with a real contribution
>when a real suggestion arrives, rather than being solely negative and
>dismissive.

I suggest you stop insinuating that I disliked that suggestion because of
the source, and acccept the fact that I thought it was a terrible idea
simply based on its own merits (or lack thereof).  And I also suggest that
you accept the fact that I will be negative and dismissive on any policy
proposals which I think are terrible ideas.

> > >If we kept the "standard" 3RR in addition to a new page based revert
> > >rule, one editor certainly could not hold pages hostage.  I didn't see
> > >anything in the previous proposal that suggested throwing away the old
> > >(but actually pretty young) 3RR rule.
> >
> > A page that is constantly kept locked by the actions of one individual
> > against a huge consensus of other editors is one held hostage.  See
> > [[Apartheid]] for an example.
> >
> > Jay.
>
>Why do you permit the hostage of the article, rather than addressing
>the single editor?  How is it possible that a single user can keep a
>page locked when he can only revert 3 times before being blocked, yet
>the "huge consensus" could certainly revert many times that number of
>times?

Did you look at the history?  He uses variable IPs; whenever he's blocked,
he simply reboots and gets another.  He's used at least 11 userids and 30
IPs so far.

>What policies or procedures do you suggest to correct this
>existing deficiency that isn't helped by the "ain't broke, don't fix
>it" policy now in place?

I suggest broader admin powers regarding obvious trolls.  But I don't
imagine that will go down too well with a number of people on this list.

>Please don't criticize people for searching for alternate paths to a
>solution, especially if they're people who you don't think have
>contributed in a positive manner recently.  We should be encouraging
>proper behavior at every opportunity.

Please don't describe my criticisms of ideas as criticisms of people, and
please don't tell me to stop doing things I haven't done in the first place.
  My initial statement was solely about the idea itself, and described quite
clearly what I didn't like about it; I neither said nor implied about the
individual making the suggestion.  You, on the other hand, wrongly assumed I
disliked the idea because of its source, and criticized me, not my response.
You should first model "proper behaviour" before encouraging it in others.

Jay.


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Wikimedia Foundation

subject: [Wikitech-l] What browser should MacOS 9 users use?

body:
Forwarding from OTRS in the hope someone on this list has more of an idea
about these problems than the board do.

Angela

---- Forwarded message from Dani?l----

> Hello Angela, Jimbo & Florence,
>
> With the upgrade to MediaWiki 1.5 the Dutch Wikipedia was converted to
> UTF-8. This has caused that people using Mac OS 9 are now unable to edit
> the Wiki, because:
>
> * Netscape 4.5 is unsupported
> * Internet Explorer 5 doesn't support Unicode and vandalises pages
>
> Opera 6 seems to support Unicode, is reported to be extremely unstable
> on
> Mac OS9.
>
> I'm not a MacOS user, so perhaps I have forget a browser that runs on
> OS9,
> but this currently looks like an unsolvable problem.
>
> Do you have any experience with this?

TicketID=36280


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
>From: Norath Norath <norath2005 at yahoo.com>

>
>Let me try to follow your logic:
>
>1. The post contains criticism of an admin.
>Therefore:
>2. It has no merit, since by definition, criticism of
>an admin is either querulous or abusive and should be
>ignored.
>
>Well done! Great thinking!

Let me try to follow your logic.
1. Make up a strawman argument.
Then:
2. Easily defeat the strawman argument.

Well done!  Great thinking!

Jay.


from_name: Mark Bergsma

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: statistics now available

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Again, I am delighted by these stats.
>
> I am a bit perplex by the numbers for South Africa. Very low though we
> have quite a big number of south african editors. Any idea ?

When we discussed the feasibility of getting accurate statistics, we
found two problems:

1. The squid logs were not in an easy, aggregated format and located on
many different machines, which makes creating statistics hard.

2. IP-to-country mappings in public databases is very unaccurate for
some regions, notably the african continent.

Kate has now solved (1), but (2) is still a problem, and a much harder
one to tackle. :)

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Non-free images, there has to be a better way

body:
Andrew Gray wrote:

>On 07/07/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>AFAIK we have not yet received any official take-down orders.  That's
>>disturbing in its own peculiar way.  Receiving a few of these gives us
>>an idea of which way the wind is blowing.  Without them we are only
>>speculating about what might happen.  Until we receive such notices it
>>should be enough to be reasonable.  Winnability should not enter into
>>the discussion until after the notice.  So far, case reports don't give
>>a conclusive picture, but some decisions have been favorable.  I'm
>>probably more optimistic than you.
>>
>>
>This is quite an interesting comment. Has there been much in the way
>of informal contact about such matters? (an email saying "we're a
>little concerned about X" and it getting pulled or an agreement
>reached, &c)
>
>
Maintaining registers of even the informal requests would be useful
information.  There is, of course, no need to comply with these.
Nevertheless some will bring to our attention copyvios that are only
still there because nobody noticed.  Some will be invalid because the
person doesn't know what he is talking about; others because the person
has no standing to make such a demand.

Ec


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Wouter, I disagree. Old Saxon is, in my belief, mutually
comprehensible with all other early West Germanic languages. We should
thus use Common West Germanic. Though not attested, with a little
effort we should be able to write in it. In fact, even writing in our
native languages, we should be able to easily bridge the dialect
barrier between Frisian and English and Scots and Swedish with just
some orthographic conversion and a little extra effort. Obviously, the
numerous Norman loanwords in English may be difficult, so I propose
instead to use NoNorman when writing English, ie "firststuff" instead
of "element", "birdlore" instead of "ornithology", "atomic" with
"uncleftish", "beholding" rather than "theory", "manlore" (or the more
PC "personlore" or "humanlore") rather than "anthropology",
"animallore" rather than "zo?logy". We should also avoid indirect and
idiomatic speech -- "passed away" should be instead "died", "Er wurde
zu einem B?ren von der Regierung aufgebunden." should be instead "Er
wurde zu von der Regierung _gelogen_."

Of course, all system messages and all pages in the Wikipedia
namespace would have to be written in Common West Germanic.

Mark

On 06/07/05, Wouter Steenbeek <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear fellow list subscribers,
>
> After a few very nasty e-mails, overseeing the battle field, I cannot
> conclude but that no-one will change his view by someone else's arguments.
> Therefor we should not bother to meet inbetween, but rather on neutral
> ground: let us return to where it all begun. We can eliminate both most
> spelling and most dialectical differences by... returning to Old Saxon. This
> strong sonorous language will unite the fierce but noble people of the
> Saxons which have been suppressed by Francs for far too long.
>
> Latad uns farenigan undar thia sprak?, thia lang lidan ena was. ?s, Sachson,
> siad fardelad thur Frankon ewan lang, enda thur hart farenigadat duvoliskit
> werk w?s nu siad fardelid tot op tha bena. Ni langar sallad s? uns
> undardrukan: V?, dat adelt folk, gad w?rum nah unsaron brunnon en herstellad
> allat hwat so lang fargetan, farnederad enda undardrukad is. Lang livad
> Sachson, lang liva Sachsa sprako. Enda nu, makad ena nija Wikipedia for
> unsara gedachta utwerkon konnon!
>
> Iar bestar friond Wouter.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Altijd in contact met de kleinkinderen: MSN Messenger
> http://messenger.msn.nl/
>
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Page output

body:
> Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:
>
> > I meant the page content, mainly - articles content. I got how can I
> > change the content of static parts like header and footer (by editing
> > skin scripts). But now the actual problem is how to change the content
> > of dynamic parts of content (best of all articles of Wikipedia).
>
> I mean including some phrases from my own table into article content.

Aha. So, as I thought, the very last stage of output probably isn't
the most sensible place to edit anyway. So...

* do you want these extra "phrases" to be inserted "on demand", when
you edit the page to include special syntax? If so, look at the
extensions mechanism -
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Write_your_own_MediaWiki_extension

* do you want these extra phrases to be inserted in reaction to
certain words or phrases, or existing markup elements, appearing in
the content (without having to actually add anything to the page)? [Or
indeed, to appear as though they were part of the content, but on
every single page - though this would seem a case for modifying the
skin to me] If so, add a function in Parser.php and have it called
from the internalParse() function.

* do you want these extra phrases to be inserted into the actual
source text, not just the output? If so, either write a bot or a
script talking to the database to add them en masse, or call a
function from Parser::preSaveTransform() or pstPass2() so that they
will be added to the article as it is saved (and beware of adding them
twice :p)

* are none of these really what you're trying to do? In which case,
perhaps you could explain in more detail what you're trying to do, and
I'll endeavour to find the logical place for it to be done.

Oh, and finally, see docs/hooks.doc (or .txt) in the source
distribution, which describes a system for creating extensions which
insert code at various points without actually modifying the code. In
fact, I hope you read this far, because that may be more helpful than
my suggestions [although the version I just looked at doesn't list a
hook for ArticleShow - a mistake, surely?]

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


body:
Oops. Make that "Ihm wurde auf einem B?ren von der Regierung gebundet"
and "Ihm wurde eine L?ge von der Regierung erz?hlt".

Mark

On 06/07/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wouter, I disagree. Old Saxon is, in my belief, mutually
> comprehensible with all other early West Germanic languages. We should
> thus use Common West Germanic. Though not attested, with a little
> effort we should be able to write in it. In fact, even writing in our
> native languages, we should be able to easily bridge the dialect
> barrier between Frisian and English and Scots and Swedish with just
> some orthographic conversion and a little extra effort. Obviously, the
> numerous Norman loanwords in English may be difficult, so I propose
> instead to use NoNorman when writing English, ie "firststuff" instead
> of "element", "birdlore" instead of "ornithology", "atomic" with
> "uncleftish", "beholding" rather than "theory", "manlore" (or the more
> PC "personlore" or "humanlore") rather than "anthropology",
> "animallore" rather than "zo?logy". We should also avoid indirect and
> idiomatic speech -- "passed away" should be instead "died", "Er wurde
> zu einem B?ren von der Regierung aufgebunden." should be instead "Er
> wurde zu von der Regierung _gelogen_."
>
> Of course, all system messages and all pages in the Wikipedia
> namespace would have to be written in Common West Germanic.
>
> Mark
>
> On 06/07/05, Wouter Steenbeek <musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear fellow list subscribers,
> >
> > After a few very nasty e-mails, overseeing the battle field, I cannot
> > conclude but that no-one will change his view by someone else's arguments.
> > Therefor we should not bother to meet inbetween, but rather on neutral
> > ground: let us return to where it all begun. We can eliminate both most
> > spelling and most dialectical differences by... returning to Old Saxon. This
> > strong sonorous language will unite the fierce but noble people of the
> > Saxons which have been suppressed by Francs for far too long.
> >
> > Latad uns farenigan undar thia sprak?, thia lang lidan ena was. ?s, Sachson,
> > siad fardelad thur Frankon ewan lang, enda thur hart farenigadat duvoliskit
> > werk w?s nu siad fardelid tot op tha bena. Ni langar sallad s? uns
> > undardrukan: V?, dat adelt folk, gad w?rum nah unsaron brunnon en herstellad
> > allat hwat so lang fargetan, farnederad enda undardrukad is. Lang livad
> > Sachson, lang liva Sachsa sprako. Enda nu, makad ena nija Wikipedia for
> > unsara gedachta utwerkon konnon!
> >
> > Iar bestar friond Wouter.
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Altijd in contact met de kleinkinderen: MSN Messenger
> > http://messenger.msn.nl/
> >
> >
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Wikitech-l] statistics now available

body:
Perhaps it would be useful to have the %age of accept-language to each
language visited.

That is, what %age of the people visiting de.wiki have German as their
accept language, or English, or Dutch... also, in some browsers, this
would include a country code (such as en-US, zh-CN, es-AR, pt-PT,
ar-SA, ku-IQ...) or other denomination of language variant, which
could be useful for determining the primary language variant of the
audience of a particular Wikipedia (are there more visitors to es.wiki
with es-MX selected, or es-AR? more visitors to zh.wiki with zh-SG or
zh-HK? more visitors to de.wiki with de-AT or de-CH?).

Mark

PS
For those wondering the origin of the countrycode "ch" for
Switzerland, it is the only historically language-neutral option
(Switzerland has 4 official languages): CH is an abbreviation of
"Confoederatio Helvetica", the Latin name of Switzerland (more
properly, the "Helvetian Confederation"). "Confoederatio Helvetica"
can be found on Swiss stamps, and occaisionally in references to
Switzerland in any language.

On 05/07/05, Kate <keturner at livejournal.com> wrote:
> webalizer statistics and access breakdowns by country are now available for
> all Wikimedia projects:
>
> * http://www2.knams.wikimedia.org/stats/
> * http://www2.knams.wikimedia.org/country-stats/
>
> if there are any suggestions for other statistics that may be useful to
> generate, we could look at providing those too.
>
> kate.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Jane Halliwell

subject: [WikiEN-l] more active censorship

body:
>From: "JAY JG" <jayjg at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] more active censorship
>Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 05:54:40 -0400
>
>>From: "Nathan J. Yoder" <njyoder at energon.org>
>>
>> > Just read, don't edit.
>>
>>That misses the whole point, which is that it shouldn't have been
>>doing that in the first place as it's a bug.
>
>No, it's supposed to work that way.  It's doing exactly what it is intended
>to do.
>
>>Obviously, I wouldn't
>>have ever hit edit if I *knew* it did that.
>
>Why is that "obvious"?  Why on earth would you hit the edit button when you
>were banned from editing?
>
>Jay.

I did, once. Why? To test if the 24 hours had expired.

When I brought this to the attention of the list, I was informed that it was
a feature, not a bug.

-Me

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


from_name: edward molasses

subject: [Wikitech-l] Multiple language setup

body:
Hello everyone,

I am trying to setup a dictionary using MediaWiki and I was wondering what the
best way is to go about setting it up as a multiple language dictionary (i.e.
each definition has translations in 4 other languages). I have heard about the
Ultimate Wikitionary which would be perfect, but I have to set something up
temporarily until that has been developed. From what I understand from
Wikimedia MetaWiki pages, the way to do it is to have separate installations
for each language and using InterWiki links to make definitions link to their
corresponding translations.

My questions are: am I correct about a multiple install being the recommended
way to setup a multilanguage wiki?

Is it okay to do it using multiple installations on the same server? Or is it
necessary to have a domain name for each installation?

Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated, thank you,
Andrew.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
Interesting. After this posting, all my contributions have been held and
screened by the list admin.

Did I hit a little too close to home?

-Me

>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi
>Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:43:51 -0500
>
>Don't bother reporting abusive admins. Nothing ever comes of it. Most are
>good people, but there are also a lot of officious bad apples.
>
>However...those bad apples are not the worst of it. The problem is with all
>the good apples. They remain quiet and unwilling to punish the bad apples,
>because they fear possible retribution. So the bad apples are allowed to
>rot, and stink up the place.
>
>Good apples unfortunately follow the Japanese saying: "The nail that stands
>up, is pounded down."
>
>I quit Wikipedia weeks ago.
>
>Or...did I? (evil laugh)
>
>>From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
>>Reply-To: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
>><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>To: Peter Parker <logicophilosoficus at hotmail.com>,English Wikipedia
>><wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi
>>Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:09:08 +0000
>>
>>On 7/5/05, Peter Parker <logicophilosoficus at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> > How can I report an abuse by a moderator? I was blocked unfairly due to
>>an
>> > ethnic debate in which the moderator had taken sides. I read somewhere
>>that
>> > I had to join the mailing list, and so I did. I don't know how to
>> > participate however, I'd like to know who should I contact concerning
>>this
>> > problem.
>> > Thanks in Advance.
>>
>>
>>You can join the list at
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l - I've cc'ed your
>>message to wikien-l in the meantime. You should respond to the list,
>>and mention your username.
>>
>>
>>- d.
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


from_name: A. Nony Mouse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
There are still a few of us who are willing to be that nail, Jane.

But thank you for reiterating the point I was making.

A. Nony Mouse

>From: "Jane Halliwell" <hundredpurses at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi
>Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:43:51 -0500
>
>Don't bother reporting abusive admins. Nothing ever comes of it. Most are
>good people, but there are also a lot of officious bad apples.
>
>However...those bad apples are not the worst of it. The problem is with all
>the good apples. They remain quiet and unwilling to punish the bad apples,
>because they fear possible retribution. So the bad apples are allowed to
>rot, and stink up the place.
>
>Good apples unfortunately follow the Japanese saying: "The nail that stands
>up, is pounded down."
>
>I quit Wikipedia weeks ago.
>
>Or...did I? (evil laugh)
>
>>From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
>>Reply-To: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>,English Wikipedia
>><wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>To: Peter Parker <logicophilosoficus at hotmail.com>,English Wikipedia
>><wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
>>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi
>>Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:09:08 +0000
>>
>>On 7/5/05, Peter Parker <logicophilosoficus at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> > How can I report an abuse by a moderator? I was blocked unfairly due to
>>an
>> > ethnic debate in which the moderator had taken sides. I read somewhere
>>that
>> > I had to join the mailing list, and so I did. I don't know how to
>> > participate however, I'd like to know who should I contact concerning
>>this
>> > problem.
>> > Thanks in Advance.
>>
>>
>>You can join the list at
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l - I've cc'ed your
>>message to wikien-l in the meantime. You should respond to the list,
>>and mention your username.
>>
>>
>>- d.
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
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from_name: Jack Lynch

subject: [WikiEN-l] The sandbox incubator

body:
SJ is profoundly correct, and I have voted on the VfD accordingly.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 7/2/05, SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is fascinating.  Some of the wikipoetry is hilarious.
>
> But these should definitely not be subpages of the sandbox.  I suppose
> they can be linked to from there, though I'm also not sure why that
> should be.  I certainly find the interest in these pages fascinating,
> not offensive.  Such pages could clearly can be part of someone's user
> space.
>
> I can imagine these being subpages of WP:FUN. Better to play games
> with other wikipedians than with random jerks on yahoo! games...  as
> for the killjoys who think game-playing will Destroy Wikipedia... I
> think any time users spend on en:wp, monitoring their personal
> messages and checking their watchlists while waiting for the next
> move, is  an efficiency win for the project.
>
> > 1) Eventually, these gaming activities will attract users who do nothing
> > *but* playing games,
>
> I know that wiki was originally intended as a "fast gaming platform",
> but it has come a long way in a different direction since then.  When
> the users you imagine arrive, I want DNA samples; they will surely be
> cunning alien clones sent to take over the wiki.
>
> > 3) The Wikipedia: namespace is meant primarily for policies; an
> > abundance of gaming-related pages complicates browsing and searching.
>
> It also serves as a meta-space for projects of all stripes.
>
> > 4) The more visible these activities become, the more they become a
> > reflection on our project to outsiders.
>
> This may be a reason not to link to games in particular from the
> sandbox.  On the other hand, letting passing visitors (who are
> unlikely to become contributors) see that we also have fun, may do
> more to attract long-term contributors than you think.
>
> > In other words, I would strongly argue in favor of shutting down the
> > sandbox as a VfD-resistant incubator for games which distract from the
> > purpose of building an encyclopedia. There is value to wikigames as
> > entertainment and as an artistic effort, but there's a separate wiki
>
> I think the purpose here is to use wikigames to give editors a break
> without forcing them to leave the wiki...  which has positive
> side-effects for community maintenance.
>
> --
> ++SJ
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Michael Turley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
On 7/6/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >From: Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com>
> >I suggest you
> >drop any stereotypes you may hold and respond with a real contribution
> >when a real suggestion arrives, rather than being solely negative and
> >dismissive.
>
> I suggest you stop insinuating that I disliked that suggestion because of
> the source, and acccept the fact that I thought it was a terrible idea
> simply based on its own merits (or lack thereof).  And I also suggest that
> you accept the fact that I will be negative and dismissive on any policy
> proposals which I think are terrible ideas.

Being dismissive about any idea is unproductive, and that's why I
suggested you consider a different approach.  Being dismissive
projects the wrong image, especially from anyone who is an admin.  You
are entirely correct that I was overly broad in my criticism of you.
I apologize.

> > > >If we kept the "standard" 3RR in addition to a new page based revert
> > > >rule, one editor certainly could not hold pages hostage.  I didn't see
> > > >anything in the previous proposal that suggested throwing away the old
> > > >(but actually pretty young) 3RR rule.
> > >
> > > A page that is constantly kept locked by the actions of one individual
> > > against a huge consensus of other editors is one held hostage.  See
> > > [[Apartheid]] for an example.
> >
> >Why do you permit the hostage of the article, rather than addressing
> >the single editor?  How is it possible that a single user can keep a
> >page locked when he can only revert 3 times before being blocked, yet
> >the "huge consensus" could certainly revert many times that number of
> >times?
>
> Did you look at the history?  He uses variable IPs; whenever he's blocked,
> he simply reboots and gets another.  He's used at least 11 userids and 30
> IPs so far.

I asked because I didn't know the answer.  I will try to help think up
a viable solution.

> >What policies or procedures do you suggest to correct this
> >existing deficiency that isn't helped by the "ain't broke, don't fix
> >it" policy now in place?
>
> I suggest broader admin powers regarding obvious trolls.  But I don't
> imagine that will go down too well with a number of people on this list.

As long as they're dealt out with a courteous, polite explanation, I'd
support a lot more than you might expect.  What harms the project, in
my opinion, is not the punishments themselves, but the curt attitudes
of some administrators, and the lack of patient explanations.  Most
people don't usually mind taking responsibility for their actions, as
long as they are treated with respect in the process.

> >Please don't criticize people for searching for alternate paths to a
> >solution, especially if they're people who you don't think have
> >contributed in a positive manner recently.  We should be encouraging
> >proper behavior at every opportunity.
>
> Please don't describe my criticisms of ideas as criticisms of people, and
> please don't tell me to stop doing things I haven't done in the first place.
>   My initial statement was solely about the idea itself, and described quite
> clearly what I didn't like about it; I neither said nor implied about the
> individual making the suggestion.  You, on the other hand, wrongly assumed I
> disliked the idea because of its source, and criticized me, not my response.
> You should first model "proper behaviour" before encouraging it in others.
>
> Jay.

I see no reason why anyone has to be perfect before suggesting
improvements to anyone else.  Instead, I think we can build a virtuous
circle, if everyone is willing to assume good faith of the other
instead of taking offense.

However, I made a very poor assumption about your motives.  I
apologize again.  Thank you for pointing out the errors in my last
email politely.  As proof of my apology, I offer to make three good
faith referenced, content contribution edits to any articles in
Wikipedia you choose.  Just name the article(s) you want improved.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


body:
I'd love to.

Unfortunately, Gerard has made perfectly clear that any contradiction of his
behavior is punishable by summary banning from Wikipedia. So, I could
theoretically revoke such a block, but (a) Gerard or one of his flunkies
would just reestablish it anyways and (b) they would impose penalties upon
my own account for doing so.

As he is one of Snowspinner's protectors, you're stuck.

Sucks to be this way but those in power don't care about policy unless they
can use it as a bludgeon to smack someone with.

A. Nony Mouse

>From: Norath Norath <norath2005 at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Abuse of admin powers by David Gerard and Snowspinner
>Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:21:45 -0700 (PDT)
>
>User:Norrath was block by David Gerard for "admitted
>sockpuppet and role account". This account is indeed a
>sockpuppet of a user in good standing, created to
>protest other blocks caaried out abusively by
>Snowspinner. The account was declared as a sockpuppet,
>in accordance with Wikipedia policy (which does not
>prohibit this) and the only edits were polite
>questions to Snowspinner about why he did not follow
>policy.
>
>It is outrageous that admins block users simply for
>making legitimate requests for explanation from other
>admins about why they did not follow policy.
>
>Please help.
>
>Norrath
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Discover Yahoo!
>Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
>http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html
>_______________________________________________
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>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
Seems to be.

Happens all the time on Islam-related and Sex-relate articles all the time -
the moment certain editors start an edit war and think they're going to get
close to breaking 3RR, they start sending off messages to sympathetic
editors asking them to join in the revert war.

It's also how we get most of the sockpuppet complaints - there are a number
of users on Wikipedia whose first instinct when challenged is to scream that
their opponent "must" be a sockpuppet of some other user who previously
opposed them either on the same article or somewhere else.

And yes, for reference, 3RR does indeed essentially mean that if two editors
decide an article should look a certain way, and only one opposes them, then
the two editors "win" unless more editors come along or it winds up in
Arbitration.

Yet another case of seemingly "neutral" policies being a disaster.

I hereby propose an alternate policy: Page-based 3RR. If the same phrase is
reverted from a page three times in 24 hours, then that PAGE shall be locked
for a week and all editors involved in the reverts shall receive a 12-hour
block to cool off.

What do you think? I know it's not perfect (it still doesn't address WHICH
version should be locked to, but that's a losing decision either way) but it
gets us away from the current "hey if we get one more guy than they have
then we can provoke an edit war, get them all 3RR blocked, and we're free
and clear to make the article say what we want it to say" nonsense and into
a more neutral stance.

A. Nony Mouse

>From: Skyring <skyring at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: Skyring <skyring at gmail.com>
>To: temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi
>Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 06:49:14 +1000
>
>"I should read the rules more closely. In that case I will revert you
>twice a day, for the rest of history if needs be. Plus I have more
>allies than you, so your attempts to restalinise this article must
>fail."
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AKhmer_Rouge&diff=14835971
>
>Is truth really determined by how many allies an editor has?
>
>This particular editor seems to be able to abuse other editors at
>will, with no more than an "admonition".

_________________________________________________________________
Millions of quality singles are online now - click to meet them!
http://match.msn.ie


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Thoughts on the process of requesting adminship

references:
<da8t24$sc8$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<BAY107-F259480F976B5F3C17F2243B0E40@phx.gbl>
	<dahql1$tjt$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 7/6/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> JAY JG wrote:
> >
> > As soon as you argue that there is *any* reason to restrict these
> > powers, all your arguments about Wikipedia "assume good faith"
> > principles fly out the window.  Now what you're really arguing is not
> > that these restrictions violate Wikipedia principles, but that in your
> > opinion the bar for admins is set too high; that's an entirely different
> > argument.
>
> I don't agree that it's an entirely different argument. I think people
> are acting in an un-wiki way precisely because the bar is set too high.
> Having a low bar to entry is precisely the wiki principle.

I just wanted to interject a thought here: if Wikipedia adminship is a
virtuous circle, where admins continuously encourage each other to
more and more polite behavior, more welcoming, and more civility,
rather than excusing occasional hostility, anger, and newbie biting, I
wouldn't care if the bar was just barely above the floor. As it is
now, we have some improvements to make, only because, like it or not,
admins are the "official face" of Wikipedia to the general editing
public.

We already have the 'edit bar' on the floor, anyone can step right
over.  It works pretty well that way.  The 'admin bar' can be right
next to it as far as I'm concerned, if people really embrace the "good
attitude" concept behind the project.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Validation feature

body:
>     # Reads all revision information of the specified article
>     function prepareRevisions( $id ) {
>         global $wgDBprefix;
>         $this->rev2date = array();
>         $this->date2rev = array();
>         $sql = "SELECT * FROM {$wgDBprefix}revision WHERE
> rev_page='{$id}'";
>         $res = wfQuery( $sql, DB_READ );
>         while( $x = wfFetchObject( $res ) ) {
>             $this->rev2date[$x->rev_id] = $x;
>             $this->date2rev[$x->rev_timestamp] = $x;
>         }
>     }

I don't think it's been said yet, someone has to say it. The name of the
revision table is not "{$wgDBprefix}revision", it is
$db->tableName('revision'). If those two produce the same text, consider
it conincidence. wfQuery() and wfFetchObject() are deprecated. Instead
use wfGetDB() to get a Database object and call the query() and
fetchObject() member functions.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Upgrade status

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Henry Tan-Tenn wrote:
[...]
>> It claims zh_min_nanwiki is done, yet the wiki inexplicably remains
>> locked (http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/).
>
>
> Probably a side-effect of the dashes in the hostname. That's now fixed,
> but there's a funky problem with the localization; it seems to display
> the UI in English unless you're logged in and save your preferences.

That one's fixed too now.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Ian Barwick

body:
On Wednesday 06 July 2005 21:31, Wikimedia Foundation wrote:
> Forwarding from OTRS in the hope someone on this list has more of an idea
> about these problems than the board do.
>
> Angela

Netscape 7.0 is probably the most modern browser for OS 9 and should
handle Unicode gracefully.
http://browser.netscape.com/ns8/download/archive70x.jsp

HTH

Ian Barwick
barwick at gmx.net

>
> ---- Forwarded message from Dani?l----
>
> > Hello Angela, Jimbo & Florence,
> >
> > With the upgrade to MediaWiki 1.5 the Dutch Wikipedia was converted to
> > UTF-8. This has caused that people using Mac OS 9 are now unable to edit
> > the Wiki, because:
> >
> > * Netscape 4.5 is unsupported
> > * Internet Explorer 5 doesn't support Unicode and vandalises pages
> >
> > Opera 6 seems to support Unicode, is reported to be extremely unstable
> > on
> > Mac OS9.
> >
> > I'm not a MacOS user, so perhaps I have forget a browser that runs on
> > OS9,
> > but this currently looks like an unsolvable problem.
> >
> > Do you have any experience with this?
>
> TicketID=36280
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

body:
> I agree, which is why I find the current policy somewhat nonsensical
> -- i.e. , "free use except for commercial use" requires no more or
> less diligence by the end-user than "fair use" licensing.

Exactly. If anything those are simpler for
the downstream user to handle. If an image
has a non-commercial license then she knows
immediately whether she can use it or not.
If an image is used on Wikipedia under fair
use then it may be more difficult for her
to find out if she can use it.

And for some reason people seem to emphasize
the plight of those downstream users who want
to copy all of Wikipedia's content at once.
For those people it will indeed be quite a
chore to wade through every image to check
their license. This will be true unless we
adopt a much more stringent licensing policy,
in which disallowing fair use would be the
first step.

But I argue that this kind of downstream usage
isn't necessarily that important. If someone
eventually publishes Wikipedia's content in
print it will probably be Wikipedia itself
and online mirrors are mostly useless.

What seems to me to be more useful downstream
use is for people to take a relatively small
collection of pages and work them into something
a bit more coherent and useful.

Let's say I wanted to publish a handbook on
[[Norse mythology]] on the web or in print.
I could start with the Wikipedia articles and
pictures on the subject. Then I would work them
to better suit my needs. If any relevant pictures
had dodgy licenses I would look into them
individually. If Wikipedia had a specific
permission to use some images I would try to
obtain the same permission for my handbook.
I would probably want to avoid any "fair use"
images.

(As it happens almost all of our images on this
subject are in the public domain - though some
of the photographs of old paintings rely on
the U.S. specific Bridgeman ruling.)

> What, 10,000-20,000 pieces of copyrighted content that we
> use in defiance of their copyright holders, paying not a cent, hiding
> behind the defensive, feeble, and unreliable "fair use" clause in a
> nation where every congressman is preaching Big Media's jeremiad about
> copyright infringement destroying the economy? Sounds to me like the
> makings of one heck of a class-action suit...

I think that various "giants" may want to attack us
at some point. The only reason they have not done so
already may be that they fear that the publicity and
possible sympathy Wikipedia could gain from such an
attack might offset the damage the lawsuit could do.

Every day blatant copyright violations are being added
to Wikipedia. Many of them are caught immediately but
I fear that a lot is still slipping through. Add shady
"fair use" to this and almost anyone who wanted could
probably conjure up some sort of case against us.

"Geyr n? garmr mj?k..."

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> Yes, it [the parser cache]'s on by default since 1.4.
>
> * Use ?action=purge on the affected pages.

Of course! I should have thought of that. :-) Thanks a lot, I'll
remember this from now on.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
On 7/6/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting. After this posting, all my contributions have been held and
> screened by the list admin.
>
> Did I hit a little too close to home?
>
> -Me

You may want to doublecheck your outbox.  At least one message that
appeared to be intended for the list went to me only.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

body:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
>
> Comment out the Sys.remove's (by (* comment *) ) in render.ml,
> recompile, and check exactly when it breaks. Are .dvi created ? What
> about .ps ?

Thanks for your help, Tomasz. Here's some more info...

* Thanks to brion's help with the parser cache, I am now getting message
   "Failed to parse (PNG conversion failed; check for correct
   installation of latex, dvips, gs, and convert): 1+1=2" on the wiki
   page.

* A .tex and .log file are created in the tmp directory, no other files
   seem to remain there.

* The .tex file doesn't compile: latex complains that it can't find
   `article.cls'.

Seeing that reminded me that I encountered a problem when installing
tetex-bin. I apologise for not mentioning this earlier. "apt-get install
tetex-bin" does a few things and then gets to this point:

	Running initex. This may take some time. ...
	Running updmap. This may take some time. ...

and here it just hangs. It never finishes this. Every time I re-run this
apt-get install, I have to interrupt this with Ctrl+C. When I do, it
says this:

	updmap failed.  Output stored in /tmp/tetex.updmap.XXxRWhxS

That file is full of "file not found" error messages. I've attached the
entire file below.

Any more ideas? Thanks again for your patience with me.
Timwi

/tmp/tetex.updmap.XXxRWhxS follows: --------------------------------

using config file /var/lib/texmf/web2c/updmap.cfg
using output directory /var/lib/texmf/dvips/config

updmap is creating new map files using the following configuration:
   prefer outlines: true
   texhash enabled: true
   download standard fonts (dvips): false
   download standard fonts (pdftex): false
   download standard fonts (dvipdfm): false

Scanning for LW35 support files
updmap: map file `dvips35.map' not found.
updmap: map file `pdftex35.map' not found.
updmap: map file `dvipdfm35.map' not found.
updmap: map file `ps2pk35.map' not found.

Scanning for MixedMap entries:
updmap: map file `bsr-interpolated.map' not found.
updmap: map file `bsr.map' not found.
updmap: map file `ccpl.map' not found.
updmap: map file `cs.map' not found.
updmap: map file `eurosym.map' not found.
updmap: map file `hoekwater.map' not found.
updmap: map file `pl.map' not found.
updmap: map file `ttcmex.map' not found.

Scanning for Map entries:
updmap: map file `antp.map' not found.
updmap: map file `antt.map' not found.
updmap: map file `charter.map' not found.
updmap: map file `cmcyr.map' not found.
updmap: map file `context.map' not found.
updmap: map file `lucidabr.map' not found.
updmap: map file `lucidabr-o.map' not found.
updmap: map file `lumath.map' not found.
updmap: map file `lumath-o.map' not found.
updmap: map file `marvosym.map' not found.
updmap: map file `mathpi.map' not found.
updmap: map file `mathpple.map' not found.
updmap: map file `mt-plus.map' not found.
updmap: map file `mt-yy.map' not found.
updmap: map file `omega.map' not found.
updmap: map file `pazo.map' not found.
updmap: map file `pxfonts.map' not found.
updmap: map file `qbk.map' not found.
updmap: map file `qcr.map' not found.
updmap: map file `qhv.map' not found.
updmap: map file `qpl.map' not found.
updmap: map file `qtm.map' not found.
updmap: map file `qzc.map' not found.
updmap: map file `txfonts.map' not found.
updmap: map file `xypic.map' not found.


from_name: Stacey Greenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
Please people... do not feed the trolls. Let them post and ignore them...
they thrive on the replies.

UtherSRG

On 7/6/05, Michael Turley <michael.turley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/6/05, Jane Halliwell <hundredpurses at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Interesting. After this posting, all my contributions have been held and
> > screened by the list admin.
> >
> > Did I hit a little too close to home?
> >
> > -Me
>
> You may want to doublecheck your outbox. At least one message that
> appeared to be intended for the list went to me only.
>
> --
> Michael Turley
> User:Unfocused
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: Request to mailing list WikiEN-l rejected

body:
On 7/6/05, A. Nony Mouse <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> That now makes FOUR times that Gerard has denied a message claiming
> "personal attack" because it was critical of his constant abuses of power.
>
> A. Nony Mouse

Without seeing the rejected messages, it appears to me the David
Gerard has been tolerant of criticism, based on what has been passed
through.

Perhaps it is your phrasing that prevents your messages from getting
through.  If there are personal attacks and insults in your blocked
messages rather than politely phrased criticisms, I support his
blocking them.  Unfortunately, your earlier messages have burned up
much of the good faith people are willing to offer, and there is a
limit of tolerance for offensive writings which simply has to be made
up by the list admins as we go along.

--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
Michael Turley wrote:

>On 7/6/05, JAY JG <jayjg at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>From: "A. Nony Mouse" <temoforcomments4 at hotmail.com>
>>>
>>>I hereby propose an alternate policy: Page-based 3RR. If the same phrase is
>>>reverted from a page three times in 24 hours, then that PAGE shall be
>>>locked for a week and all editors involved in the reverts shall receive a
>>>12-hour block to cool off.
>>>
>>>
>>What a bad idea; it allows any editor to hold pages hostage essentially
>>indefinitely, even if opposed by dozens of other editors.
>>
>>Jay.
>>
>>
>Perhaps you could add your thoughts for improvement instead of solely criticism?
>
>If we kept the "standard" 3RR in addition to a new page based revert
>rule, one editor certainly could not hold pages hostage.  I didn't see
>anything in the previous proposal that suggested throwing away the old
>(but actually pretty young) 3RR rule.
>
>
There is no sense in trying to "improve" an unsalvageably bad idea.
Also, a much better solution has already been proposed at
[[Wikipedia:Per-article blocking]], where I'm glad to see you recently
added yourself to the list of supporters. All that remains is for
somebody to write the necessary code.

To that end, and in the spirit of encouraging people to do constructive
things instead of just griping, I have an offer to make. If any user who
gets blocked from editing would like to submit valid code for this
feature to http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/, email me a link to your
feature request and I promise to unblock you. This includes anyone, even
"A Nony Mouse" (though he'd have to tell us who he is to take advantage
of the offer).

Security on Wikipedia works by locking things down as little as
possible, and then only when practically compelled to do so. So the
message I would give blocked users is this: Look, even though you were
getting into some trouble, we would be more than happy to give you the
run of (nearly) all of Wikipedia if you'd just do the necessary work to
make sure you won't cause problems.

--Michael Snow


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
Stacey Greenstein wrote:

>Please people... do not feed the trolls. Let them post and ignore them...
>they thrive on the replies.
>
>
Hmm, perhaps the mailing list admins should start moderating the posts
of established users on the list in addition to new subscribers?

--Michael Snow


from_name: Wouter Steenbeek

body:
Dear fellow list subscribers,

After a few very nasty e-mails, overseeing the battle field, I cannot
conclude but that no-one will change his view by someone else's arguments.
Therefor we should not bother to meet inbetween, but rather on neutral
ground: let us return to where it all begun. We can eliminate both most
spelling and most dialectical differences by... returning to Old Saxon. This
strong sonorous language will unite the fierce but noble people of the
Saxons which have been suppressed by Francs for far too long.

Latad uns farenigan undar thia sprak?, thia lang lidan ena was. ?s, Sachson,
siad fardelad thur Frankon ewan lang, enda thur hart farenigadat duvoliskit
werk w?s nu siad fardelid tot op tha bena. Ni langar sallad s? uns
undardrukan: V?, dat adelt folk, gad w?rum nah unsaron brunnon en herstellad
allat hwat so lang fargetan, farnederad enda undardrukad is. Lang livad
Sachson, lang liva Sachsa sprako. Enda nu, makad ena nija Wikipedia for
unsara gedachta utwerkon konnon!

Iar bestar friond Wouter.

_________________________________________________________________
Altijd in contact met de kleinkinderen: MSN Messenger
http://messenger.msn.nl/


from_name: Boris Lohnzweiger

body:
Dear Wouter,

I can't help but disagree. In my opinion, using Proto-Indo-European for the new Wikipedia is the only viable option. Additional benefit: we could finally close many redundant editions of Wikipedia like en:, fr:, es: ....

Boris

wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 06.07.05 23:41:51:

Dear fellow list subscribers,

After a few very nasty e-mails, overseeing the battle field, I cannot
conclude but that no-one will change his view by someone else's arguments.
Therefor we should not bother to meet inbetween, but rather on neutral
ground: let us return to where it all begun. We can eliminate both most
spelling and most dialectical differences by... returning to Old Saxon. This
strong sonorous language will unite the fierce but noble people of the
Saxons which have been suppressed by Francs for far too long.

Latad uns farenigan undar thia sprak?, thia lang lidan ena was. ?s, Sachson,
siad fardelad thur Frankon ewan lang, enda thur hart farenigadat duvoliskit
werk w?s nu siad fardelid tot op tha bena. Ni langar sallad s? uns
undardrukan: V?, dat adelt folk, gad w?rum nah unsaron brunnon en herstellad
allat hwat so lang fargetan, farnederad enda undardrukad is. Lang livad
Sachson, lang liva Sachsa sprako. Enda nu, makad ena nija Wikipedia for
unsara gedachta utwerkon konnon!

Iar bestar friond Wouter.

_________________________________________________________________
Altijd in contact met de kleinkinderen: MSN Messenger
http://messenger.msn.nl/

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________________
Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle
Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179


from_name: Anthere

body:
Mark Bergsma a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>
>>Again, I am delighted by these stats.
>>
>>I am a bit perplex by the numbers for South Africa. Very low though we
>>have quite a big number of south african editors. Any idea ?
>
>
> When we discussed the feasibility of getting accurate statistics, we
> found two problems:
>
> 1. The squid logs were not in an easy, aggregated format and located on
> many different machines, which makes creating statistics hard.
>
> 2. IP-to-country mappings in public databases is very unaccurate for
> some regions, notably the african continent.
>
> Kate has now solved (1), but (2) is still a problem, and a much harder
> one to tackle. :)

Nod.
What actually surprised me, is simply that south africa is one of the
most advanced on the continent from a tech point of view. And probably
the one country with the highest number of editors (at least, this is
what my exploring clearly showed). So ... what I would expected from
central africa just surprised me there :-)

ant


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.4.6 released [SECURITY]

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

MediaWiki 1.4.6 is a bug fix and security update release.

Incorrect escaping of a parameter in the page move template could
be used to inject JavaScript code by getting a victim to visit a
maliciously constructed URL. Users of vulnerable releases are
recommended to upgrade to this release.

Vulnerable versions:
* 1.5 preview series: n <= 1.5beta2 vulnerable, fixed in 1.5beta3
* 1.4 stable series: 1.4beta6 <= n <= 1.4.5 vulnerable, fixed in 1.4.6
* 1.3 legacy series: not vulnerable

This release also includes fixes for some rare bug annoying HTTP errors,
a PHP 4.1.2 breakage bug, and works around some template limitations
introduced in 1.4.5. See the changelog in the release notes for a
detailed list of bugs fixed.

Release notes:
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=340290

Download:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.4.6.tar.gz?download

MD5 checksum: f4f82bd486756c279f0c1977b290ce3b

Before asking for help, try the FAQ:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_FAQ

Low-traffic release announcements mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCzNsWwRnhpk1wk44RAk3LAJ4/DBDT4Vu6YPIYwYntImUJ/AXBRACfWCsm
PCtY9QynW6h4RnSSShcCSvQ=
=u2ZE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.5beta3 released [SECURITY]

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

MediaWiki 1.5 beta 3 is a preview release of the new 1.5 release
series, with a security update over beta 2.

Incorrect escaping of a parameter in the page move template could
be used to inject JavaScript code by getting a victim to visit a
maliciously constructed URL. Users of vulnerable releases are
recommended to upgrade to this release.

Vulnerable versions:
* 1.5 preview series: n <= 1.5beta2 vulnerable, fixed in 1.5beta3
* 1.4 stable series: 1.4beta6 <= n <= 1.4.5 vulnerable, fixed in 1.4.6
* 1.3 legacy series: not vulnerable

This release also includes several bug fixes and localization updates.
See the changelog in the release notes for a detailed list.

Release notes:
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=340291

Download:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/wikipedia/mediawiki-1.5beta3.tar.gz?download

MD5 checksum: ee2abd543d1f23bdb67da87d902cbb09

Before asking for help, try the FAQ:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_FAQ

Low-traffic release announcements mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce

Wiki admin help mailing list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

Bug report system:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/

Play "stump the developers" live on IRC:
#mediawiki on irc.freenode.net

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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QZ22oXJi+jdm1Db2hB2mHR4=
=wTY+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Brian

subject: [Wikitech-l] URLs

body:
Is there a reason to not use a www in that url schema? If this change is
made, you effectively have to support both, as there are hundreds of
thousands of inbound links across all the projects. Easy enough to rewrite
URLs, but not easy to change those links, or the mindset of those who have
been using the lang.wikipedia.org <http://lang.wikipedia.org> schema for
years.

/Alterego

On 7/7/05, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > however, at the same time, we could implement a change in the way domain
> > names are used, that has been discussed several times in the past:
> >
> > - http://wikipedia.org/en/article/Main_Page
> > - http://wikipedia.org/en/edit/Main_Page
>
> This isn't an objection since Alexa isn't accurate anyway, but this
> would prevent the "Where do people go on wikipedia.org?<http://wikipedia.org?>"
> at
> <http://alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&url=wikipedia.org>
> from working.
>
> I'm not sure what other examples there are of a subdomain having any
> relevance to external sites. Google Adsense used to give more
> information if you split your site by subdomains, but now lets you
> track directories as well as subdomains. Not that that would be a
> relevant point for Wikimedia projects, but are there any other
> external stats that people use that do need Wikipedia to have
> subdomains?
>
> Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


body:
JAY JG wrote:
>
> As soon as you argue that there is *any* reason to restrict these
> powers, all your arguments about Wikipedia "assume good faith"
> principles fly out the window.  Now what you're really arguing is not
> that these restrictions violate Wikipedia principles, but that in your
> opinion the bar for admins is set too high; that's an entirely different
> argument.

I don't agree that it's an entirely different argument. I think people
are acting in an un-wiki way precisely because the bar is set too high.
Having a low bar to entry is precisely the wiki principle.

> No, it also makes sense if the abilities are not ones needed to create
> or write articles, but rather merely needed to administer the project.

You are essentially saying that some people should not be allowed to
help Wikipedia in ways other than writing articles. Paradoxical? I find
that distinction of yours between "writing articles" and "administering
the project" to be arbitrary. Both are examples of helping Wikipedia. I
probably do way more of the latter one. It seems that you have chosen
that distinction only to support your own argument.

> Very little is truly irreversible, but the amount of effort it takes to
> repair damage goes up exponentially with each power added;

This may or may not apply to the current software situation, but need
not necessarily be universally true. The original idea in wiki was to
make it easier to repair damage than to cause damage. I don't see why
this can't be made to apply to any administrative function too. If a
rogue admin goes on a deletion/blocking/protecting/whatever spree,
ideally there should be a button for another admin to revert all those
changes en masse. That en-masse reversion button wouldn't be useful for
causing damage by undoing legitimate actions because legitimate actions
do not tend to come in bursts.

> prudence balances the damage that can be done with the benefit the
> power adds.

Yes, but what makes you so sure you're striking the right balance? If
there is someone who (assuming this for a second) would use a lot of
administrative functions for a lot of good, but is denied adminship out
of prudence, then clearly the balance is too far towards the prudence.

> Adding admin powers to hundreds of new editors, who have gone through
> almost no vetting process, will inevitably create all sorts of damage
> which will almost certainly outweigh any tangible benefits to the
> project.

As I already said, this is the thinking that leads people to believing
that Wikipedia can't work if everyone can edit.

>> But not only have I refuted this argument already (it doesn't hurt to
>> have more if they don't abuse it),
>
> You can't "refute" an argument by inserting a huge (and likely
> erroneous) conditional statement in your "refutation".

It is quite a bold assertion of yours that the statement is "likely
erroneous". I am no-where near proposing anything that runs the risk of
making any substantial number of potential abusers admins. You, like
most of the regulars in the adminship votes it seems, think that almost
everyone is a potential abuser if they haven't shown otherwise with
hundreds of edits every day over several months.

> Yes, it doesn't hurt to have more IF they don't abuse it; but the
> whole process of creating admins is geared towards ensuring that new
> admins will not be the ones likely to abuse admin powers, and that's
> just the process you want to remove.

I've said this before -- the current process DOES NOT ensure that anyone
won't abuse any powers. It ONLY ensures that the new admins have support
in the community. Which is all the worse, because it means that IF they
end up abusing their powers, they will even have other admins back them
up. It also happens to mean that not abusing any powers is not enough
for becoming admin -- rather, you have to fulfill everyone's arbitrary
and irrelevant criteria such as submitting more than XYZ edits per day
or something. Under the current system, it would even be possible to
vote ''oppose'' based on physical appearance, nationality, or any other
irrelevant criterion -- the only reason people don't do it is because
it's considered politically incorrect.

>>> No, I simply don't know if they're sensible.
>>
>> Right, but you're also denying them the chance to show you that they are.
>
> They can edit productively and comment sensibly, and in so doing
> build a track record that indicates they are likely to be a sensible
> admin as well.

And that is exactly what I would like to be the case, but clearly it
isn't -- users (well, at least the one I've nominated) who have done
exactly that, are still not admins.

>> Right, so just because some of these people exist, others should be
>> denied adminship because there is a vague chance they might be one of
>> them. Is that what you're saying?
>
> What is this "denied adminship"?  You say it as if its a fundamental
> right.  As for "vague chance", try "high likelihood if we relax they
> requirements in the way you suggest".

Obviously, I don't think it should be a fundamental right to be admin.
But I still think it is a fundamental right to be treated somewhat
fairly and sensibly.

Your "high likelihood" assertion is dubious at best. By that logic, most
editors should be abusive. In reality, however, a small percentage of
potential editors are potential editors-in-bad-faith.

> No-one "deserves" admin powers

Right, so we deny it to anyone we please, regardless if we have any
reasonable grounds or not?

Here's a bit of an extreme analogy. No-one "deserves" a highly-paid job
at our company that requires technical skills. So let's deny it to
homosexuals! Don't care how skilled and qualified they are...

>>>> If a user with >600 edits, >1.5 edits per day, nominated by an
>>>> existing admin, and absolutely no history of trouble or ill-behaving
>>>> for over a year, cannot become admin, the current process is clearly
>>>> *not* working well.
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>
>> Because this user should be an admin.
>
> Again, I remind you that assertions are neither arguments nor proofs.

Just because you can't see my argument doesn't mean it isn't one.

>> But what do you think about my first proposal, to just make it so that
>> you cannot vote "oppose" based on number of edits or any other
>> criterion that isn't indicative of bad faith or other problematic
>> behaviour?
>
> As stated above, the former is shorthand for "I don't know enough about
> this editor yet to trust him with admin powers", and the latter is
> highly subjective and easily gamed.  I would only support this if
> "support" votes were subject to the same restrictions.

Such as?

Timwi


from_name: Ros’ Haruo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pie: against redundancy

body:
> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:50:13 +0200
> From: Boris Lohnzweiger
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <1278463972 at web.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> Dear Wouter,
>
> I can't help but disagree. In my opinion, using Proto-Indo-European for the new Wikipedia is the only viable option. Additional benefit: we could finally close many redundant editions of Wikipedia like en:, fr:, es: ....
>
> Boris

So what is Proto-Indo-European for "wiki" anyway?

Haruo aka dzidzelalic


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Social issues for the newer projects

body:
These are some thoughts prompted by the incident on Wikinews recently
discussed on this list. They are general in nature, and decidedly *not*
directed at any particular individual. I venture to say that anyone who
thinks they know what individuals I have in mind is *highly* likely to
be mistaken. However, I think the general principles are important to
consider, especially for those who are trying to shepherd the
development of Wikimedia's younger projects (i.e., everything but
Wikipedia).

Wikipedia is clearly our most successful project. It attracts the bulk
of our contributors and is easily the best at producing quality content.
In the process, it has become a solid, well-functioning community. This
is because it consists of people who can collaborate well, and for those
who cannot, the system allows people of good will to exert various
pressures until the problem cases either change their ways or leave.
These factors are self-reinforcing and thus allow for continued
improvement (this is not predestined, and we should avoid complacency,
but that is a topic for another day).

None of the other projects, in my opinion, is yet particularly
successful at any of these things - attracting contributors, creating
quality content, or developing a sustainable community. They are still
in earlier stages, so I'm not saying they can't, or even that they
should be further along than they are. And they do have fine content
occasionally, but need the contributor base and the community atmosphere
in order to bring the content to a higher level overall.

The contributor base is a huge problem, because none of the other
projects brings in enough new people on its own; they all grow by virtue
of Wikipedia's coattails. But people strongly attracted to Wikipedia are
more likely to stay there, so the other projects end up with those who,
for whatever reason, did not fit in.

Why do some people not fit in? In some cases it's due to legitimate
disagreements over how broadly Wikipedia should extend, so we often talk
about other projects as ways to accommodate content not included in an
encyclopedia. This is fine, and people who are less comfortable in the
Wikipedia community for this reason are not a problem. Let them work on
the project they like best, and they can team up with those people who
never would have even tried Wikipedia, but contribute now because they
really love the idea of Wiktionary or Wikinews or whichever project.

The problem is with people who don't quite fit in with our community
ideals. By this I don't just mean NPOV, but the need for collaboration
and consensus-building. This kind of person starts out on Wikipedia, and
would likely have stayed there if they had been successful in that
community. They don't leave on account of a block, nor are they even
obviously violating any policy. But when they grow frustrated with the
give and take of the process (not having their way, essentially), they
migrate to one of the other projects to try again.

These people, if there are too many in a project, will drag the
community down instead of up, and the content will ultimately suffer as
well. I am concerned at having observed several cases (again, no names)
follow this pattern. I'm not talking about people trying to push a
political agenda in one place and then the next - those are easier to
recognize and deal with. Rather, I mean people whose Wikipedia careers
show that they have difficulty recognizing community sentiment and
understanding when a consensus is developing. The problem may manifest
itself in a different way on the next project, but its cause remains the
same.

One also hopes that people can learn and do better with a fresh start in
a new project. Some of these users will improve and avoid their
Wikipedia errors, but some will not. I think it is important for those
trying to guide the newer projects to watch for problems of this sort,
and be especially diligent in fostering a community ethic on the project.

--Michael Snow


list: wikimedia-l


body:
That now makes FOUR times that Gerard has denied a message claiming
"personal attack" because it was critical of his constant abuses of power.

A. Nony Mouse

_________________________________________________________________
Send a sexy animated wink with Messenger 7.0 - FREE download!
http://messenger.msn.co.uk


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject: [Foundation-l] my apologies

body:
To Angela, Anthere, Jimbo, Developers and anyone else I might have
scolded a bit to much on the Sorbs issue. I was way out of line
especially with regards to my remarks towards Angela, Anthere and Jimbo
in mail and the developers on IRC, all of whom I know would help at all
times. I am sorry and my apologies.

My problem is not that I do not understand why the measures are taken
(at least my brain does), they are unfortunately necassary at times. It
is just that the heart doesn't understand it and flares up. It is a
normal problem with me. The heart takes over from the brain and the
damage is done.

Waerth / Walter van Kalken


subject: [Foundation-l] my apologies


subject: [Wikipedia-l] my apologies


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: TeX not working

references:
<da9cjv$voc$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20050703194906.GA3749@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>
	<da9kp8$4l4$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20050704002459.GA26412@wroclaw.taw.pl.eu.org>
	<dahjrm$d4i$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 10:52:37PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Seeing that reminded me that I encountered a problem when installing
> tetex-bin. I apologise for not mentioning this earlier. "apt-get install
> tetex-bin" does a few things and then gets to this point:
>
> 	Running initex. This may take some time. ...
> 	Running updmap. This may take some time. ...
>
> and here it just hangs. It never finishes this. Every time I re-run this
> apt-get install, I have to interrupt this with Ctrl+C. When I do, it
> says this:
>
> 	updmap failed.  Output stored in /tmp/tetex.updmap.XXxRWhxS
>
> That file is full of "file not found" error messages. I've attached the
> entire file below.
>
> Any more ideas? Thanks again for your patience with me.

Try installing tetex-bin from a more stable distribution.
For example if you're using unstable, try:
# apt-get install tetex-bin/testing
(it may need adding a few X/testing by hand to the command line)

If it won't work, report a bug, ask on #debian channel etc.


from_name: Kate

references:
<2583498.C2AASQV7m5@rose.local> <42CA628F.6020105@tiscali.co.uk>
	<1155616.LkAQvMWUZ4@rose.local>

body:
Kate wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> i've added another page at

>   http://www2.knams.wikimedia.org/stats/00-all-projects/

unfortunately, i had to remove this, as webalizer is too slow/uses too much
memory to process the logfiles twice.

kate.


from_name: ilooy

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Ladino Wiki - What is the next step forward?

body:
2005/7/6, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>:
> Hi Ilooy,
>
> I have a few questions.
>
> First of all: is Ladino your native language? If not, what is the
> purpose of this request?

Hey Mark,

No, actually I'm a polyglot... The purpose of the request is
to set up a subdomain for a new wiki
http://lad.wikipedia.org and
http://lad.wiktionary.org

> Second of all: What orthography do you plan on using? First of all
> there is the division of scripts: Latin vs Hebrew. [...]

Based on the usage of "Aki Yerushalayim" magazine
and the Ladinokomunita discussions, the Latin alphabet
enjoys the support of the Ladino speaking community.

The Rashi characters are older means of writing out
Ladino texts, but without vowel pointing, using "matres
lectionis" letters for this purpose.

I don't think there would be enough support in the
Ladino community to bring back the Hebrew alphabet
orthography. However, the very phonetic spelling in
Latin characters is even supported by fluent Ladino
users in Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino

So there is interest in the set up of such a wiki by
an active community of speakers. There are
periodicals using the Latin alphabet to write it,
and I've formally requested the setup of the
sub-domain on Wikipedia-l and on Meta...

What is the next step forward?

With regards,
Jay B.

en:User:ILVI
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: URLs

body:
Phil Boswell wrote:
> "Kate" <keturner at livejournal.com> wrote in message
> news:6019986.1hDDKoznoz at rose.local...
>>in 1.5, we have the possibility of changing URLs used for projects.
>
> [examples snipped]
>
> For the sake of lowering blood-pressure all around, should be assume that
> these new formats are **in addition** to those currently in use?
>
> I like them, but I echo the concerns of those worried about breaking inward
> links.

Just to emphasize:

We are *strongly* committed to maintaining the functioning of existing
incoming links. I've made this promise several times over the last three
years, and I'm happy to make it again.

If and when we change URL styles (as in the past moving from
*.wikipedia.com to *.wikipedia.org, from www.wikipedia.org to
en.wikipedia.org, from /wiki.cgi?Title to /wiki/Title, and from
/w/wiki.phtml to /w/index.php) the old links will continue to work by
automatic redirect or just by both working at once.

> Actually I like the possiblity of specifying links in more than one way to
> allow maximal flexibility. If we **can** handle it, then we **should**
> handle it. The principle of "least surprise" should come into pre-emptive
> action here.

There needs however to be a 'canonical' form: this is what the software
itself will produce links as, and for cachable items where a single
purgeable URL needs to exist and redirects are used, that's where other
forms will get redirected to.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
2005/7/7, Angela <beesley at gmail.com>:
> On 7/7/05, ilooy <ilooy.gaon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What is the next step forward?
>
> The next step is to find some people willing to pledge their support
> to the proposal. They need to be people who  can write in this
> language and are committed to editing there if the wiki is set up.
> These people should sign up at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Ladino
>
> Angela.
>
Thanks for your answer Angela,
I have made a listing on that page
and it has been updated and links
added.

There is enough interest that would
get the project underway. When I
started with the Galego wiki I was
the only person adding articles until
the interest caught on and now it
is enjoying some good additions,
same with the Interlingua wiki which
more so on the Wiktionary wiki is
also enjoying some good additions.

I don't recall ever having to sign up
on the meta in order to get the
sub-domain going, but if this is
the new procedure then it is already
underway. What would be the next
step after this?

I'd definitely think that a wiki for
Ladino would enjoy some good
steady growth. And very importantly
it would give a forum for people who
are very devoted to keeping this
language in current use. It would
be a plus for the language and a
plus for Wikipedia.

Would a message to Wikitech-l
also be sent or would it be enough
to have made these steps so far
in order to have the two sub-domains
set up? Since the momentum is
building and I've been corresponding
with other Ladino speakers about
a Wikipedia and a Wiktionary in
Ladino it is very important to me
that a good impression is made
right off, this would be good for
the Ladino speaking community
and good P.R. for Wikipedia also.

With regards, and appreciation for
your response to my messages,
Jay B.


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 07/07/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> AFAIK we have not yet received any official take-down orders.  That's
> disturbing in its own peculiar way.  Receiving a few of these gives us
> an idea of which way the wind is blowing.  Without them we are only
> speculating about what might happen.  Until we receive such notices it
> should be enough to be reasonable.  Winnability should not enter into
> the discussion until after the notice.  So far, case reports don't give
> a conclusive picture, but some decisions have been favorable.  I'm
> probably more optimistic than you.

This is quite an interesting comment. Has there been much in the way
of informal contact about such matters? (an email saying "we're a
little concerned about X" and it getting pulled or an agreement
reached, &c)

> >There are more images labeled fair use than I can count --
> >1,000 deep and I am still in the A's. Anybody have a better way to
> >estimate it?
> >
> Find the number of total pages considered and extrapolate.  The "A"s are
> probably better covered than most letters.

For what it's worth, the English-language distribution for "A" and "B"
is such that the two of them, together, make up about 1/13 of the
characters in use - in other words, they combine to give a good
"average letter" value.

However, B is very over-represented as an initial letter - it's only
the twentieth most common letter overall, but it's the fifth most
common initial letter. A is third in both ranks.

Your best bet, for a fair representation, would be to count those in
"T" and in "K", and then multiply by thirteen.

(T and K together make up about 1/13th of the letters in the language
- but T is the most common initial, and K the least, so that should
hopefully average out)

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Jtkiefer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi

body:
Hmm, perhaps the mailing list admins should start moderating the posts
of established users on the list in addition to new subscribers?

> --Michael Snow
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>

I think the admins do not like to  for several reason:

A) More work for the listadmins and believe it or not I'm pretty sure
they have lives (we're still trying to confirm whether this is true or
not and may or may not need to put a {{disputed}} tag on it. :)

B) It makes user reluctant to join in a conversation when they aren't
sure whether their message will get through and if it does if it will
still be relevant due to the backup caused by having to approve
individual messages one by one.  Thus negating the whole point of having
a message list.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone agrees/disagrees/ or has any
thoughts on these ideas.

-Jtkiefer


from_name: Long-time lurker, first-time poster

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Non-free images, there has to be a better way

body:
On 07/07/05, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> AFAIK we have not yet received any official take-down orders.  That's
> disturbing in its own peculiar way.

Have you looked at:
[[Wikipedia:Request for immediate removal of copyright violation]]
?


from_name: Giuseppe DAngelo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 24, Issue 18

body:
------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:50:13 +0200
From: Boris Lohnzweiger
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <1278463972 at web.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Dear Wouter,

I can't help but disagree. In my opinion, using Proto-Indo-European for the new Wikipedia is the only viable option. Additional benefit: we could finally close many redundant editions of Wikipedia like en:, fr:, es: ....

Boris

wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org schrieb am 06.07.05 23:41:51:

I like this thread and it's logical conclusion - eliminating those languages that have gotten too big for their own boots and returning to the fundamentals.

In the case of all italic peoples, it would mean abandoning Italian - which represents the esparanto of the Italian peninsula of the middle ages - and returning to the first true literary form of the vulgar italic idioms - which we all know is SICILIAN!!

Un populu mittitilu a catina
Spugghiatilu
Atttupatici a vucca,
E` ancora libiru.

Livatici u travagghiu
U passaportu
A tavula unni mancia
U lettu unni dormi,
E` ancora libiru.

Un populu
Diventa poviru e servu,
Quannu ci arrobbanu la lingua
Addutata di patri:
E` persu di sempri.

Diventa poviru e servu
Quannu li paroli nun figghianu paroli
E si mancianu tra d'iddi...

I. Buttitta

Surely no one would classify the above as being POV, would they?

Salutamu - pippu d'angelo, canberra

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam, antivirus, POP3


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Selective blocking (was: Abuse of admin powers by David
	Gerard and Snowspinner)

body:
I expected the new software to include the feature we've all been asking
for, that would block a user from "all pages but his own talk page" - or
"all pages but a few specific ones". The purpose of this was to enable a
user to protest a block - without having to create a new account or find
a new ISP.

Pending development of this feature, why not:
(1) Unblock the user account.
(2) Requent the user to confine his edits to his user talk page (and
possibly a short list of other pages)
(3) Watch his contribs, and instantly revert and edits outside his
assigned scope.
(4) Re-block his account if #3 becomes tedious.

This is bending over backwards to be fair. And I wouldn't mind being the
first to try it - if enough others think the experiment is worth trying.

Kindly ol' Uncle Ed (User:Ed Poor)
Chairman (pro tem), Mediation Committee
Admin, Bureaucrat, Developer Emeritus, wikien-l admin, etc., etc.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: MacGyverMagic/Mgm [mailto:macgyvermagic at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 5:32 AM
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Abuse of admin powers by David Gerard
> and Snowspinner
>
>
> On 7/6/05, Norath Norath <norath2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > User:Norrath was block by David Gerard for "admitted sockpuppet and
> > role account". This account is indeed a sockpuppet of a
> user in good
> > standing, created to protest other blocks caaried out abusively by
> > Snowspinner.
>
> Regardless of whether a block was within policy or not,
> creating another account to circumvent it is against policy.
> This is especially what the list was made for and if you
> asked to be unblocked while citing relevant sections of
> policy, I'm sure you could get a lot more admins to unblock
> you if you contacted them privately, than when you go
> straight to accusations of abuse.
>
> --Mgm
>
>