subject: [WikiEN-l] Icelandic "fair use" equivalent

body:
Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:

>>(I assumed that there is no equivalent of "fair use" in France or in
>>the Netherlands, but I really don't have a clue...)
>>
>>
>There's probably something. Here's my unofficial
>translation of a part of the Icelandic copyright
>laws law. I'm not a lawyer and I find it hard to
>translate Icelandic legelese.
>
You could have saved yourself some work.  An English translation of the
whole law is available at
http://www.unesco.org/culture/copy/copyright/iceland/iceland.html

>"Article 14. It is permitted to quote a published work
>of literature, including plays and published films
>and musical compositions, for the purposes of criticism,
>science, general introduction or for other acceptable
>purposes, if it is done correctly and within reasonable
>boundaries.
>     Under the same conditions it is allowed to
>publish pictures and drawings of published artworks
>and files, as per 3rd paragraph of article 1.
>     If pictures or drawings of two or more works
>by the same author are published in connection with
>text relating to a general introduction the author
>has a right to renumeration."
>
The prevailing right to use one picture is especially interesting.  In
many instances that would be more than enough for our purposes.

>The next article gives a further right to use
>copyrighted materials for purposes of reporting.
>
>If I read this right the estate of [[Einar J?nsson]]
>would have a right to renumeration if the Wikipedia
>article were published in Iceland, since we use more
>than one picture of his works. However, the estate
>would not have the right to forbid publication of
>the article since the material is within reasonable
>limits and "correct".
>
The difficulty is in determining how much remuneration is fair.

Ec


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

body:
> (I assumed that there is no equivalent of "fair use" in France or in
> the Netherlands, but I really don't have a clue...)

There's probably something. Here's my unofficial
translation of a part of the Icelandic copyright
laws law. I'm not a lawyer and I find it hard to
translate Icelandic legelese.

"Article 14. It is permitted to quote a published work
of literature, including plays and published films
and musical compositions, for the purposes of criticism,
science, general introduction or for other acceptable
purposes, if it is done correctly and within reasonable
boundaries.
     Under the same conditions it is allowed to
publish pictures and drawings of published artworks
and files, as per 3rd paragraph of article 1.
     If pictures or drawings of two or more works
by the same author are published in connection with
text relating to a general introduction the author
has a right to renumeration."

The next article gives a further right to use
copyrighted materials for purposes of reporting.

If I read this right the estate of [[Einar J?nsson]]
would have a right to renumeration if the Wikipedia
article were published in Iceland, since we use more
than one picture of his works. However, the estate
would not have the right to forbid publication of
the article since the material is within reasonable
limits and "correct".

Regards,
Haukur

P.S.

The original:

"Heimil er tilvitnun ? birt b?kmenntaverk, ?ar ? me?al leiksvi?sverk, svo
og birt kvikmyndaverk og t?nverk, ef h?n er ger? ? sambandi vi? gagnr?ni,
v?sindi, almenna kynningu e?a ? ??rum vi?urkenndum tilgangi, enda s? h?n
ger? innan h?filegra marka og r?tt me? efni fari?.
     Me? s?mu skilyr?um er heimilt a? birta myndir og teikningar af birtum
listaverkum og g?gnum, sem geti? er ? 3. mgr. 1. gr.
     N? eru birtar myndir e?a teikningar af tveimur verkum e?a fleiri hins
sama h?fundar ? sambandi vi? meginm?l, sem l?tur a? almennri
kynningu, og ? hann ?? r?tt til ??knunar." (from
http://tinyurl.com/amb3e)


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Orthography in interwiki links

body:
Alfio Puglisi wrote:

>The problem anyway doens't exist since the interwiki list is indeed a
>list, and there's no problem in having a list with capitalized items, be
>they language names or not. So the current form is OK. A list with mixed
>case would be instead quite strange and, I suspect, wrong.
>
>
Indeed; I don't see how this is an issue of whether languages typically
capitalize nationalities or not.  If you look at the sidebar, *all* the
menu entries are capitalized in all the languages I've just
spot-checked, whether they're proper nouns or not.  "Community portal"
starts with a capital "C" on en:, and "Accueil communaut?" starts with a
capital "A" on fr:, and so on.  I don't see why we would specifically
lowercase the language names, while everything else in the menus is
capitalized.

-Mark


list: foundation-l

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] Japanese Wikinews set up

body:
As previously announced, a Japanese language edition of Wikinews has now
been set up:

	http://ja.wikinews.org/

I have announced this on the Japanese Chatsubo and will ask the editors
of the site to help with spreading the word further.

Good luck to this new member of the Wikimedia project family.

Best,

Erik


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Japanese Wikinews set up


from_name: Heiko Evermann

subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Proposal to modify / supplement request:=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_request_for_Stellingwarfs, _Grunnegers, _Dr=E8ents, _Tweants?= , and Achterhooks Wikipedias.

body:
Hi everyone,

> I hate to say it but I am getting contradictory information from you and
> Heiko.
>
> In fact, I am getting contradictory information from the various
> things you write yourself.
Mark, it is no use arguing about all this with you any longer.

> Yet, in this page you wrote yourself, the classification implies that
> Twente is further from Grunningen, than Schleswig-Holstein LS is from
> Stellingwarven? This is where your argument falls apart into
> inconsistency.
Nevertheless they share one important thing: a heavy influence of Dutch in
all
areas where Low Saxon lacks modern words.

> Please, help us to reconcile your classification with your statements.
No Mark, the whole discussion has last much too long. Let's make it short
and clear: it is not up to you to decide all for yourself about what is
right
and what is wrong. It was a long way to convince you that we need a separate
wikipedia for those Low Saxon speakers that come from the Netherlands.
Again:
there are two grave factors. Spelling and vocabulary. Now you want to make
fun of us and want to cause confusion by demanding 5 (in words five !!!) new
wikipedias for "Dutch Low Saxon". Now this is ridiculous.

> Also, how do you explain for the websites I linked you to? They use
> such terms as "drentse taol" rather than "drentse streektaol" or
> "drentse dialekt"... nobody says "spellingswyse" like you do on your
> test-mainpage, they all used different terms... it's suspicious.
Mark, I am fed up with trying to explain things to you.
>
> And, why do you change your mind now about Low Saxon being your native
> language?? It either is, or it isn't.
He made perfectly clear how he sees himself. Please read it again.

> Heiko makes a distinction of spelling, not seeming to have realised
> yet that orthographic conversion is a full possibility although I
> tried to explain it ...
Mark, we are not interested in such a converter. Again: the difference is
spelling AND vocabulary. When editing nds.wikipedia.org I do not want to be
limited by having to worry about side effects of your converter. Finding the
right words for nds.wikipedia.org is difficult enough. We have spent quite
some time on finding words where most dictionaries fail. (E.g. what is
"jungle"
in Platt, or "abbot"? It took us quite some time to sort that out.)
So please, please stop talking about your converter. This might work for
converting
azerbaijani from cyrillic to latin, but not for us. (As the saying goes:
"Which part of NO don't you understand.")

> You may have gotten 5 supporters, but how many of them can write in
> this "Dutch Low Saxon" language you speak of?
5 is five. period. Servien wants to go on and we back him up. And I am very
much curious to find out what the community will look like that will form
from this seed. I really want to know, and I want to see this started soon.

Perhaps the main point in all this discussion with you has not been
mentioned before. you do not even come from
the Low Saxon language area. It is OUR language, not YOURS, and how many or
how few wikipedias we want for our Low Saxon
language is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, and whether or not nds-nl.wikipedia.org
will be created is not up to you to decide. This is my final word.

So here again is my official request: please create nds-nl.wikipedia.org, or
is this the wrong place
to ask for this? If so, please tell me whom to ask.

Regards,

Heiko

--
5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail
+++ GMX - die erste Adresse f???r Mail, Message, More +++


from_name: ilooy

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Policy clarification: creation of
	nds-nl.wikipedia.org

body:
2005/7/14, Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>:
> Hi everyone,
>
> after the long discussion about nds-nl.wikipedia.org I would just like to know
> 1) who is responsible for making the decision
> 2) whom do we have to write to to get it created.
>

Hey Heiko,
What I gathered from making such
inquiries about setting up a Ladino
wiki, especially from responses by
Angela who was very helpful, and I
thank others who also responded,
is that you now write Wikitech-l a
message and request that one of
the developers have pity on your
proposal and set up the sub-domain.

I've done this myself, sending a
couple of messages there and I'm
awaiting confirmation that one of
our hard-working developers would
be able to devote some time to do
the task. I'm hoping, I'm praying
and I'm exercising patience until
then. Until when? I don't know,
if anyone else knows what would
be a necessary next step please
give me a clue as well.

With regards,
Jay B.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
> Those messages are ugly and have no relevance to
> third party users of Wikipedia content.

They have relevance to Wikipedians and prospective
Wikipedians. I doubt they greatly annoy anyone else.
Some of them could certainly do with a little
prettifying, though.

> We also do not have a problem with attracting
> new editors as is so this is a solution in search
> of a problem.

The existence of a problem is not a logical
prerequisite for the desire to improve a situation.
We can always use more editors.

Regards,
Haukur


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Stanislav Traykov

subject: [Wikitech-l] Uploaded file size limits

body:
Hi,

I'm trying to set up a wiki accepting large file uploads (up to 50MB)
but for some reason I can't upload anything larger than ~8MB: after I
click the upload button it waits a few seconds and just displays the
empty upload form again. Does this sound like a MediaWiki problem? I'd
be grateful for any hints..

Apache config: LimitRequestBody 0 (=unlimited)
php.ini: upload_max_filesize = 50M
LocalSettings.php: $wgUploadSizeWarning = 52428800

Thanks,
Stanislav Traykov


subject: [Wikitech-l] Uploaded file size limits

body:
Yes, I did. However, I didn't modify php.conf (as opposed to .ini). Is
there anything relevant in there?

cheers,
Stan

Lane, Ryan wrote:
> Err, ignore that part. Did you restart apache?
>
>>Check /etc/php.ini, and the php.conf file under apache's configuration to
>>make sure you are allowing larger uploads as well.

 >> [Stan Traykov wrote:]
>>>I'm trying to set up a wiki accepting large file uploads (up to 50MB)
>>>but for some reason I can't upload anything larger than ~8MB


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] U.S. copyright law and European servers

body:
On 7/14/05, Nyenyec N <nyenyec at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is somewhat related to the ongoing "fair use" discussion.
>
> AFAIK, there are Wikipedia servers in Paris and Amsterdam.
>
> Is it OK for Wikipedia to use an image under U.S. copyright law based
> on "fair use" and the given image is hosted on French or Dutch server
> and is served to French or Dutch clients but is copyrighted under
> French or Dutch law?
> Isn't that a copyright violation?
>
> (I assumed that there is no equivalent of "fair use" in France or in
> the Netherlands, but I really don't have a clue...)
>
> Wouldn't this be a problem as more and more servers are installed in
> an increasing number of countries?
>
> Thanks,
> nyenyec
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

I recall that the theory is that since they are cache servers rather
than master database servers we should be ok (this is important since
laws about what wikipedia can contain differ from country to country).

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] William M. Connoley, admin? (was: Running the asylum)

body:
On 7/14/05, Snowspinner <snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
> By that logic, we should also de-admin Everyking?
>
> -Snowspinner
>

Since we know that he can be trusted with admin powers no.

--
geni


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wiktionary-l] ERD

body:
Hoi,
I have started anew on an ERD for the UW. It still has few files, they
will grow but it is already quite complicated. I have looked at the ERD
from Ilse, and found it to be next to useless for a multilanguage
dictionary. This is MY first shot at it, I am still in design mode and
my next exercise will be to include pronunciations. That is more
complicated that it sounds I am afraid because you also have
trancriptions to consider and the fact that phonetic script is NOT
standard; Americans do transcipe to IPA and SAMPA differently from the
French or the Germans.

One lesson I have learned, since the last time I looked at this in
earnest I have learned a lot. This has complicated my perception and it
should make for a data design that is better at solving the issues as I
know them. I have looked at several designs and rejected a few, there
are some designs that I want to revisit.

I did send this mail to uw-creations, a google group that we set up for
the implementation of a reference implementation for a Computer Aided
Translation (CAT) tool. This design is as relevant to them as it is for
the Wiktionary-l. Everyone can read the content of this list, only
people who have been invited can post there. (drop me a line)

As always, I am happy for your comments. In the spirit of Open Source I
will publish often.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Snowspinner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
On Jul 14, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:

>> Posting things like ToDo lists in the article itself or adding
>> instruction
>> creep such as WikiProject tags hurts more than helps and makes our
>> content
>> less usable to third parties.
>>
>
> The effort needed by a content reuser to
> remove a WikiProject tag is negligible.

For one page. What do you propose to do for mirrors? 1.0? The
eventual dreamed-of DVD disributions?

-Snowspinner


from_name: Charles Matthews

body:
Michael Turley wrote

>> I would request a Bureaucrat who was not so closely involved (i.e. one
>> who did not edit war and deface other comments in this discussion) make
>> the decision on this particular RFA.

>I could not agree more strongly.

The vote 70-30 for WMC shows he has many friends but has acquired enemies
(together with those who either take the ArbCom ruling to be a blot, or who
are chary of those who get foul of controversy on general grounds).

Now it ramifies into distrust for a bureaucrat.  Bureaucrats are elected
precisely on the grounds that they _are_ trusted.  So, it seems some people
would want to qualify that.

Forgive me, but this is polarizing, splitting stuff - and just what Wiki-en
should rise above, on a politically-charged issue.

There are a few possible resolutions of the RFA issue here.  I do feel
strongly that it is important to speak out against the 'legalistic'
attitude.  Wiki works mainly because the barrackroom lawyers are seen for
what they are, and the community wills the constitution to be applied with
as much regard for the assumption of good faith, for example, as for
anything else.

Charles


from_name: apw at ap-woolrich.co.uk

subject: [WikiEN-l] European copyrtght law and Wikipedia servers

body:
Hi everyone.

If this is going to be a problem then its all the more reason for
banning fair use.

As far as I can see there has been no discussion about obtaining more
public domain images, only on handling those which are problematic.

I have  two thoughts:

First: I was, in regard to the London bombing, greatly impressed by
the images from Flickr (www.flickr.org) I see from their FAQ that one
of the  licencing options they offer users is a public domain one,
which is presumably how we came by those we used. I spent a while
poking around their site and the spread of high quality images of
many subjects is awesome

Maybe contact could be made with them asking if they can give
publicity to Wikipedia and saying we are always on the look out for
PD images for Commons we can use in articles.

Second: There must be specialist editors like me who have book
collections with out-of-copyright material which could be scanned.
This gets over the hassle of reproduction fees from library sources.
We should have a drive to get more editors making PD  images even if
they are for articles they have not written.

I am probably looking in the wrong place, but I have not found
anywhere detailed instructions for the best methods of scanning for
Wiki use.  Much of the material I have comprises drawings and
engravings, and these need care in scanning to avoid dither. While
there is much detailed information about how to make the FTP transfer
and handling the image on the  Wiki page. I cannot find in the
tutorials anything on how to make the scans to optimum Wiki
standards.

Tony Woolrich (AKA Apwoolrich)

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.14/48 - Release Date: 13/07/2005


body:
 "Michael Turley" wrote

>I want to trust a bureaucrat to judge when it is most appropriate for
them to recuse themselves from an issue.

Just do so, then.  Ed doesn't need any more data, in fact.  He can ask
another bureaucrat to call this one, or he can do it himself.

>I don't see where Ed being open about his decision making process, and
people responding to him are necessarily polarizing or divisive or
contrary to good faith in any way, as long as we're polite, civil, and
respectful of each other.

I don't think another straw poll is a good thing, at all.  I don't think
qualifying  the bureaucrat status case-by-case is good, either.  My own
feelings about Ed are that his avuncularity has slipped badly on this issue;
but that has nothing to do with his capacity to decide the outcome. And  I
don't think any amount of civility makes up for schisms.

Charles


from_name: Servien Ilaino

subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Proposal to modify / supplement request: request for Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Drèents, Tweants, and Achterhooks Wikipedias.

body:
Hi Mark,

Your e-mails are VERY LONG!! I can't read all of it since most of it
is BLABLABLA... I'll reply to only a few points which you stated:

First of all the Low Saxon page is translated, I haven't had the
chance to actually read everything word for word... I don't care in
what group Grunnings or Stellingwarvs and Sleeswyks falls... you are
correct though that Oost-Vrys (Ostfr?isk, or something like that) is
understandable to us, the spelling used is a bit complicated but the
reason why we can understand it is because it is closely related to
Westlauwers-Vrys. Since Oost-Vrys isn't used on nds.wiki it's not
relevant, FYI, I read somewhere someone wanted to start a Ostfr?isk
Wiki, but that's a completely different thing, not related to this at
all. I don't even believe the information is correct, but you're
welcome to check it if you want!!

As you mentioned the whole of the South group is in the NL, the only
Dutch dialect in the North group is Grunnings, I'm not Grunnings so I
can't tell you if they understand DLS but I and most others don't
(OKAY THAT'S CLEAR - I HOPE?) In the Netherlands we understand
Grunnings (and for me as far as I've read Ostfr?isk, I understand it
reasonably well) But if you know any Grunningers ask them if they
understand the nds.wiki some will but most won't, anyone is welcome on
the nds-nl.wiki when it's created but I'm sure that when it's created
they'll prefer that to nds.wiki. (Looking up information should be
easy not very difficult, then what's the point it!) the converter
doesn't help @all for me it could as well be a currency converter, but
I don't care, it doesn't help...

Point B: I don't care if they all have a different way of writing, if
you want to make a wiki workable then you have to have a common
writing system (especially if the way of pronouncing in most dialects
are the same, only the writing style differs - as seen on nds.wiki -)

Point C: No one cares if it's patentplatt, if they have a problem with
it they will change it!

You also said no of the websites use the term "spellingswyse" - ever
heard of synonyms? Most probably they'll use "schriefwieze/schryvwyse"
or "spellingswieze" or something similar, it's a common occurance as
also seen in English. Besides Veluws is not word-for-word the same as
dialect as Drents.

They may use the term LANGUAGE, but it's officially not a language but
a DIALECT of Nedersaksisch!! (No arguing about that, that's a fact!..
in fact most things are a fact so don't know why you're arguing)

I told you I'm BILINGUAL, that means I'm fluent in aswell DUTCH as
VELUWS (NEDERSAKSISCH) but because Dutch is the prominent language and
it's seen as most "polite" language, you hear more Dutch ...explained
that to you in the last e-mail so not doing that again! (One has to
explain thing 100 times to you - that's why Heiko doesn't want to
continue this conversation because we're not getting anywhere with
you, you don't even speak LS so how could you judge the language??
Please for the next time you come tell your stories here, have some
facts instead of "Mark believes that...")

TIP: For you next e-mail make it SHORT and don't talk BLABLABLA but
with actual content, to which we can reply!

Servien

2005/7/14, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > > I hate to say it but I am getting contradictory information from you and
> > > Heiko.
> > >
> > > In fact, I am getting contradictory information from the various
> > > things you write yourself.
> > Mark, it is no use arguing about all this with you any longer.
>
> Does this mean that you have no logical explanations anymore?
>
> > > Also, how do you explain for the websites I linked you to? They use
> > > such terms as "drentse taol" rather than "drentse streektaol" or
> > > "drentse dialekt"... nobody says "spellingswyse" like you do on your
> > > test-mainpage, they all used different terms... it's suspicious.
> > Mark, I am fed up with trying to explain things to you.
>
> So you don't respond to it. Just say you're fed up. That works well.
>
> > > And, why do you change your mind now about Low Saxon being your native
> > > language?? It either is, or it isn't.
> > He made perfectly clear how he sees himself. Please read it again.
>
> In his e-mails, he did. Yet, he makes clear through babel templates
> that it is not his mother-tongue. This is confusing, and
> self-contradictory.
>
> > > Heiko makes a distinction of spelling, not seeming to have realised
> > > yet that orthographic conversion is a full possibility although I
> > > tried to explain it ...
> > Mark, we are not interested in such a converter. Again: the difference is
> > spelling AND vocabulary. When editing nds.wikipedia.org I do not want to be
> > limited by having to worry about side effects of your converter. Finding the
> > right words for nds.wikipedia.org is difficult enough. We have spent quite
> > some time on finding words where most dictionaries fail. (E.g. what is
> > "jungle"
> > in Platt, or "abbot"? It took us quite some time to sort that out.)
> > So please, please stop talking about your converter. This might work for
> > converting
> > azerbaijani from cyrillic to latin, but not for us. (As the saying goes:
> > "Which part of NO don't you understand.")
>
> Perhaps the part of "no" where you thought I was talking about
> converting from Ron's orthography to German orthography? At what point
> did you actually understand what I was offering? That is the part of
> "no" I didn't understand. Like, "Would you like a banana?" -- "No, I
> would not like an elephant"; "No, I said a BANANA" -- "I already said,
> I don't want a banana!".
>
> And, you said, and I quote (text in parenthesis is mine):
>
> (> > HOWEVER, I still believe it is wrong to divide on national borders.
> > > From what I can tell, Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Dreents, Tweants, and
> > > Achterhooks are all different enough from one another to warrant
> > > separate Wikipedias.)
> > The national border is a border of spelling.
>
> Now, can you honestly tell me that is not confusing? You said in the
> newest e-mail that it is of spelling and vocabulary, yet in one from
> nearly a day ago you said exactly "The national border is a border of
> spelling"??
>
> > > You may have gotten 5 supporters, but how many of them can write in
> > > this "Dutch Low Saxon" language you speak of?
> > 5 is five. period. Servien wants to go on and we back him up. And I am very
> > much curious to find out what the community will look like that will form
> > from this seed. I really want to know, and I want to see this started soon.
>
> So, if I request a new Wikipedia in Drents, and I find 5 people to
> support me, no matter what their credentials, it should be created
> right away? Do you wonder why the Sranang Tongo and Papiamentu
> Wikipedias have not been created?? Perhaps it is because there are
> still outlying issues with them...?
>
> > Perhaps the main point in all this discussion with you has not been
> > mentioned before. you do not even come from
> > the Low Saxon language area. It is OUR language, not YOURS, and how many or
> > how few wikipedias we want for our Low Saxon
> > language is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, and whether or not nds-nl.wikipedia.org
> > will be created is not up to you to decide. This is my final word.
>
> Oh, so it is your language, but your native language is Hochdeutsch?
> This is just fabulous. So, if I learn to speak perfect patentplatt
> (don't tell me it isn't patentplatt, I forwarded you accusations from
> Jonny Meinbohm, and put on the list accusations from Ron hahn, both of
> whom are, unlike you, native speakers), it suddenly becomes my
> language? Interesting. In fact, my great-great-grandparents spoke
> Platt natively... so it must be my language, then??
>
>  > So here again is my official request: please create nds-nl.wikipedia.org, or
> > is this the wrong place
> > to ask for this? If so, please tell me whom to ask.
>
> It isn't that simple. You don't just request a Wikipedia, and then
> suddenly it is created. Look at how long ago the Scots Wikipedia was
> first requested; it was created only a week or two ago. It didn't have
> any issues regarding it, either.
>
> An Extremaduran Wikipedia looked promising -- support from native
> speakers (which doesn't exist here; even if Servien is a native
> speaker, he is only 1, in the last 4 Wikipedias to be created, there
> were at least 2 potential contributors, and often as much as 5),
> language-promotion organisations (none here), and the like. Yet, there
> were some questions about the status of Extremaduran: is it a
> language, or a dialect? These concerns were very, very short, no long
> discussions. And yet, it was never created, and interest gradually
> waned.
>
> Cantonese, for which I advocated, was supported by well over 5 people,
> many of them native speakers. And yet, due to the fact that nobody
> ever reached agreement, it has not been created.
>
> When there are no disputes, it usually takes a long time for it to be
> created anyways. When there are outstanding issues, it takes even
> longer.
>
> I would like to remind you that I hold no official position with the
> Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> However, the whole idea was submitted to the list, and as a member of
> this list and of the community, I have the right to argue against it.
> This does not mean that it will not be created, although it is likely
> to be created substantially later if the dispute is not resolved,
> which you certainly have not tried to do ("I am tired of explaining
> things to you" -- Boris Lohnzweiger provided such a nice,
> point-by-point response to me... why can't others do that? why do you
> just repeat yourselves over and over? "oh right whatever, but it's
> still separate"?)
>
> You did not address any of the individual arguments in my last
> message, most important among them:
>
> a) Servien's e-mails say that there is a clear line between
> Netherlands (Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Dr?ents, Tweants, and
> Achterhooks) and German (Oostfreesk, Nordnedersassisch, Westphaelsch,
> etc. etc. etc.) varieties of Platt/Low Saxon. This is fine. ...until,
> he writes an article in his test-wikipedia which categorises:
>
> de noordelike groep (Sleeswyk-Holstein, Nedersaksen, Grunningen,
> Drenthe, Stellingwarven, and Overyssel.)
> de suudwestelike groep (Westfaolen, Twente, Sallaand, Gelderland).
>
> Now, I'm sure you know the countries for these: Schleswig-Holstein is
> in Germany, Saxony is in Germany, Grunnegers is in the Netherlands,
> Dr?ents is Netherlands, Stellingwarfs is Netherlands, and Overyssel is
> Netherlands.
>
> And, Westphalia is in Germany, Tweants is spoken in the Netherlands,
> Sallands in the Netherlands, and Veluws in the Netherlands.
>
> So, both of his principal divisions of Low Saxon include varieties
> from both countries. This is the primary contradiction here, and I
> would like to see someone explain it -- it has not been explained
> before, because I only noticed it today (he created the article
> yesterday, I think).
>
> b) Regardless of what you think, there is a tradition of separate
> literature in Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Dr?ents, Tweants,
> Achterhooks, Sallands, and Veluws -- the Bible, first of all; the
> Asterix comics also.
>
> And then, there is the fact that each one of those websites I linked
> to refers to each one as a language -- Drentsetoal, not
> Drentse-streektoal or Drentse-dialekt.
>
> c) Although important, this is probably not directly related to the
> issue of nds-nl: Someone searching for a word for "abbot" is surely
> not a native speaker; I imagine most native speakers would know
> "jungle" too.
>
> Both Jonny Meinbohm and Ron Hahn have testified that nds.wiki is
> written in Patentplatt, in fact I sent you the text of a ballad Ron
> wrote to tease Jonny about it. The ballad is of course in Patentplatt,
> the translation to real Platt he provided later (I didn't send that
> part to you, though I offered to if you wanted it) is quite
> enlightening.
>
> So, let's see credentials here: I am not a native speaker. My command
> of Low Saxon can be said to be between nds-0 and nds-1. You are not a
> native speaker. You claim nds-3. Slomox is not a native speaker. He
> does not give a proficiency level, although my guess would be nds-3.
>
> Ron Hahn and Jonny Meinbohm are both native speakers, and they have
> both said that it is written in Patentplatt. It's very strange that
> you ignore the opinions of these people. If I were writing a Wikipedia
> in a language that wasn't my native language, I would listen very
> closely to what native speakers had to say.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Roman Maurer wrote:

> Delirium pravi:
>
>> Indeed; I don't see how this is an issue of whether languages
>> typically capitalize nationalities or not.  If you look at the
>> sidebar, *all* the menu entries are capitalized in all the languages
>> I've just spot-checked, whether they're proper nouns or not.
>> "Community portal" starts with a capital "C" on en:, and "Accueil
>> communaut?" starts with a capital "A" on fr:, and so on.  I don't see
>> why we would specifically lowercase the language names, while
>> everything else in the menus is capitalized.
>
> The sidebar menu entries are supposed to be *titles* of their
> respective pages, as opposed to the language names, which are ...
> well, language *names* rather than article (or page) titles.

So even in the links to other language Wiktionaries on the English Main
Page it become arguable whether a series of items separated by dashes
are a series of titles or of language names.  At least the first option
helps us avoid an item by item determination.

Ec


body:
Mark,

I checked the German-LS Low Saxon page, and there's a seperate group
for the Dutch dialects called WESTPLATT, these are the dialect which
are normally understood in the Netherlands.

Emsl?nner Platt (Very lose to Grunningen in Germany)
Grunnengs un Noord-Drents (NL)
Westerwolds  (")
Midden-Drents (")
Zuid-Drents (")
Twentsch (")
Twents-Graafschaps (")
Stellingwarfs (")
Veenkoloniaals (")
Gelders-Overijssels en Urks (")
Achterhoeks (")
Sallands (")
Veluws (")
Noord-Veluws (")
Oost-Veluws (")
Kollumerlands (" - Vrieslaand)

Also see the changed page!

Servien

2005/7/14, Servien Ilaino <servien at gmail.com>:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Your e-mails are VERY LONG!! I can't read all of it since most of it
> is BLABLABLA... I'll reply to only a few points which you stated:
>
> First of all the Low Saxon page is translated, I haven't had the
> chance to actually read everything word for word... I don't care in
> what group Grunnings or Stellingwarvs and Sleeswyks falls... you are
> correct though that Oost-Vries (Ostfr?isk, or something like that) is
> understandable to us, the spelling used is a bit complicated but the
> reason why we can understand it is because it is closely related to
> Westlauwers-Vries. Since Oost-Vries isn't used on nds.wiki it's not
> relevant, FYI, I read somewhere someone wanted to start a Ostfr?isk
> Wiki, but that's a completely different thing, not related to this at
> all. I don't even believe the information is correct, but you're
> welcome to check it if you want!!
>
> As you mentioned the whole of the South group is in the NL, the only
> Dutch dialect in the North group is Grunnings, I'm not Grunnings so I
> can't tell you if they understand DLS but I and most others don't
> (OKAY THAT'S CLEAR - I HOPE?) In the Netherlands we understand
> Grunnings (and for me as far as I've read Ostfr?isk, I understand it
> reasonably well) But if you know any Grunningers ask them if they
> understand the nds.wiki some will but most won't, anyone is welcome on
> the nds-nl.wiki when it's created but I'm sure that when it's created
> they'll prefer that to nds.wiki. (Looking up information should be
> easy not very difficult, then what's the point it!) the converter
> doesn't help @all for me it could as well be a currency converter, but
> I don't care, it doesn't help...
>
> Point B: I don't care if they all have a different way of writing, if
> you want to make a wiki workable then you have to have a common
> writing system (especially if the way of pronouncing in most dialects
> are the same, only the writing style differs - as seen on nds.wiki -)
>
> Point C: No one cares if it's patentplatt, if they have a problem with
> it they will change it!
>
> You also said no of the websites use the term "spellingswyse" - ever
> heard of synonyms? Most probably they'll use "schriefwieze/schryvwyse"
> or "spellingswieze" or something similar, it's a common occurance as
> also seen in English. Besides Veluws is not word-for-word the same as
> dialect as Drents.
>
> They may use the term LANGUAGE, but it's officially not a language but
> a DIALECT of Nedersaksisch!! (No arguing about that, that's a fact!..
> in fact most things are a fact so don't know why you're arguing)
>
> I told you I'm BILINGUAL, that means I'm fluent in aswell DUTCH as
> VELUWS (NEDERSAKSISCH) but because Dutch is the prominent language and
> it's seen as most "polite" language, you hear more Dutch ...explained
> that to you in the last e-mail so not doing that again! (One has to
> explain thing 100 times to you - that's why Heiko doesn't want to
> continue this conversation because we're not getting anywhere with
> you, you don't even speak LS so how could you judge the language??
> Please for the next time you come tell your stories here, have some
> facts instead of "Mark believes that...")
>
> TIP: For you next e-mail make it SHORT and don't talk BLABLABLA but
> with actual content, to which we can reply!
>
> Servien
>
>
> 2005/7/14, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > > I hate to say it but I am getting contradictory information from you and
> > > > Heiko.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, I am getting contradictory information from the various
> > > > things you write yourself.
> > > Mark, it is no use arguing about all this with you any longer.
> >
> > Does this mean that you have no logical explanations anymore?
> >
> > > > Also, how do you explain for the websites I linked you to? They use
> > > > such terms as "drentse taol" rather than "drentse streektaol" or
> > > > "drentse dialekt"... nobody says "spellingswyse" like you do on your
> > > > test-mainpage, they all used different terms... it's suspicious.
> > > Mark, I am fed up with trying to explain things to you.
> >
> > So you don't respond to it. Just say you're fed up. That works well.
> >
> > > > And, why do you change your mind now about Low Saxon being your native
> > > > language?? It either is, or it isn't.
> > > He made perfectly clear how he sees himself. Please read it again.
> >
> > In his e-mails, he did. Yet, he makes clear through babel templates
> > that it is not his mother-tongue. This is confusing, and
> > self-contradictory.
> >
> > > > Heiko makes a distinction of spelling, not seeming to have realised
> > > > yet that orthographic conversion is a full possibility although I
> > > > tried to explain it ...
> > > Mark, we are not interested in such a converter. Again: the difference is
> > > spelling AND vocabulary. When editing nds.wikipedia.org I do not want to be
> > > limited by having to worry about side effects of your converter. Finding the
> > > right words for nds.wikipedia.org is difficult enough. We have spent quite
> > > some time on finding words where most dictionaries fail. (E.g. what is
> > > "jungle"
> > > in Platt, or "abbot"? It took us quite some time to sort that out.)
> > > So please, please stop talking about your converter. This might work for
> > > converting
> > > azerbaijani from cyrillic to latin, but not for us. (As the saying goes:
> > > "Which part of NO don't you understand.")
> >
> > Perhaps the part of "no" where you thought I was talking about
> > converting from Ron's orthography to German orthography? At what point
> > did you actually understand what I was offering? That is the part of
> > "no" I didn't understand. Like, "Would you like a banana?" -- "No, I
> > would not like an elephant"; "No, I said a BANANA" -- "I already said,
> > I don't want a banana!".
> >
> > And, you said, and I quote (text in parenthesis is mine):
> >
> > (> > HOWEVER, I still believe it is wrong to divide on national borders.
> > > > From what I can tell, Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Dreents, Tweants, and
> > > > Achterhooks are all different enough from one another to warrant
> > > > separate Wikipedias.)
> > > The national border is a border of spelling.
> >
> > Now, can you honestly tell me that is not confusing? You said in the
> > newest e-mail that it is of spelling and vocabulary, yet in one from
> > nearly a day ago you said exactly "The national border is a border of
> > spelling"??
> >
> > > > You may have gotten 5 supporters, but how many of them can write in
> > > > this "Dutch Low Saxon" language you speak of?
> > > 5 is five. period. Servien wants to go on and we back him up. And I am very
> > > much curious to find out what the community will look like that will form
> > > from this seed. I really want to know, and I want to see this started soon.
> >
> > So, if I request a new Wikipedia in Drents, and I find 5 people to
> > support me, no matter what their credentials, it should be created
> > right away? Do you wonder why the Sranang Tongo and Papiamentu
> > Wikipedias have not been created?? Perhaps it is because there are
> > still outlying issues with them...?
> >
> > > Perhaps the main point in all this discussion with you has not been
> > > mentioned before. you do not even come from
> > > the Low Saxon language area. It is OUR language, not YOURS, and how many or
> > > how few wikipedias we want for our Low Saxon
> > > language is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, and whether or not nds-nl.wikipedia.org
> > > will be created is not up to you to decide. This is my final word.
> >
> > Oh, so it is your language, but your native language is Hochdeutsch?
> > This is just fabulous. So, if I learn to speak perfect patentplatt
> > (don't tell me it isn't patentplatt, I forwarded you accusations from
> > Jonny Meinbohm, and put on the list accusations from Ron hahn, both of
> > whom are, unlike you, native speakers), it suddenly becomes my
> > language? Interesting. In fact, my great-great-grandparents spoke
> > Platt natively... so it must be my language, then??
> >
> >  > So here again is my official request: please create nds-nl.wikipedia.org, or
> > > is this the wrong place
> > > to ask for this? If so, please tell me whom to ask.
> >
> > It isn't that simple. You don't just request a Wikipedia, and then
> > suddenly it is created. Look at how long ago the Scots Wikipedia was
> > first requested; it was created only a week or two ago. It didn't have
> > any issues regarding it, either.
> >
> > An Extremaduran Wikipedia looked promising -- support from native
> > speakers (which doesn't exist here; even if Servien is a native
> > speaker, he is only 1, in the last 4 Wikipedias to be created, there
> > were at least 2 potential contributors, and often as much as 5),
> > language-promotion organisations (none here), and the like. Yet, there
> > were some questions about the status of Extremaduran: is it a
> > language, or a dialect? These concerns were very, very short, no long
> > discussions. And yet, it was never created, and interest gradually
> > waned.
> >
> > Cantonese, for which I advocated, was supported by well over 5 people,
> > many of them native speakers. And yet, due to the fact that nobody
> > ever reached agreement, it has not been created.
> >
> > When there are no disputes, it usually takes a long time for it to be
> > created anyways. When there are outstanding issues, it takes even
> > longer.
> >
> > I would like to remind you that I hold no official position with the
> > Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > However, the whole idea was submitted to the list, and as a member of
> > this list and of the community, I have the right to argue against it.
> > This does not mean that it will not be created, although it is likely
> > to be created substantially later if the dispute is not resolved,
> > which you certainly have not tried to do ("I am tired of explaining
> > things to you" -- Boris Lohnzweiger provided such a nice,
> > point-by-point response to me... why can't others do that? why do you
> > just repeat yourselves over and over? "oh right whatever, but it's
> > still separate"?)
> >
> > You did not address any of the individual arguments in my last
> > message, most important among them:
> >
> > a) Servien's e-mails say that there is a clear line between
> > Netherlands (Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Dr?ents, Tweants, and
> > Achterhooks) and German (Oostfreesk, Nordnedersassisch, Westphaelsch,
> > etc. etc. etc.) varieties of Platt/Low Saxon. This is fine. ...until,
> > he writes an article in his test-wikipedia which categorises:
> >
> > de noordelike groep (Sleeswyk-Holstein, Nedersaksen, Grunningen,
> > Drenthe, Stellingwarven, and Overyssel.)
> > de suudwestelike groep (Westfaolen, Twente, Sallaand, Gelderland).
> >
> > Now, I'm sure you know the countries for these: Schleswig-Holstein is
> > in Germany, Saxony is in Germany, Grunnegers is in the Netherlands,
> > Dr?ents is Netherlands, Stellingwarfs is Netherlands, and Overyssel is
> > Netherlands.
> >
> > And, Westphalia is in Germany, Tweants is spoken in the Netherlands,
> > Sallands in the Netherlands, and Veluws in the Netherlands.
> >
> > So, both of his principal divisions of Low Saxon include varieties
> > from both countries. This is the primary contradiction here, and I
> > would like to see someone explain it -- it has not been explained
> > before, because I only noticed it today (he created the article
> > yesterday, I think).
> >
> > b) Regardless of what you think, there is a tradition of separate
> > literature in Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Dr?ents, Tweants,
> > Achterhooks, Sallands, and Veluws -- the Bible, first of all; the
> > Asterix comics also.
> >
> > And then, there is the fact that each one of those websites I linked
> > to refers to each one as a language -- Drentsetoal, not
> > Drentse-streektoal or Drentse-dialekt.
> >
> > c) Although important, this is probably not directly related to the
> > issue of nds-nl: Someone searching for a word for "abbot" is surely
> > not a native speaker; I imagine most native speakers would know
> > "jungle" too.
> >
> > Both Jonny Meinbohm and Ron Hahn have testified that nds.wiki is
> > written in Patentplatt, in fact I sent you the text of a ballad Ron
> > wrote to tease Jonny about it. The ballad is of course in Patentplatt,
> > the translation to real Platt he provided later (I didn't send that
> > part to you, though I offered to if you wanted it) is quite
> > enlightening.
> >
> > So, let's see credentials here: I am not a native speaker. My command
> > of Low Saxon can be said to be between nds-0 and nds-1. You are not a
> > native speaker. You claim nds-3. Slomox is not a native speaker. He
> > does not give a proficiency level, although my guess would be nds-3.
> >
> > Ron Hahn and Jonny Meinbohm are both native speakers, and they have
> > both said that it is written in Patentplatt. It's very strange that
> > you ignore the opinions of these people. If I were writing a Wikipedia
> > in a language that wasn't my native language, I would listen very
> > closely to what native speakers had to say.
> >
> > Mark
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>


body:
Haukur ?orgeirsson wrote:

>>The difficulty is in determining how much remuneration is fair.
>>
>>
>Other such remuneration stipulations always seem
>to be as a percentage of money made.
>
We can afford that! :-)

Ec


body:
Michael Turley wrote

>Civility and mutual respect are the difference between disagreement
and schism.  It seems to me we have simple disagreement and nothing
more.

You think the G8 'disagreement' on global warning, all discussed no doubt in
the most diplomatic of language, wasn't a schism?

It is part of the theory of wikis that eventually they find an issue over
which to shake themselves apart.  Hasn't happened for WP, touch wood.  If
there is such an issue, it is not going to be the language, but the basic
passionate incompatibilities, which fuel it.

I'm actually quite concerned that this particular issue is not going to be
easy to ring-fence.

Charles


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

body:
On 7/14/05, Poor, Edmund W <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking of deciding this one myself.
>
> Dr. William M. Connolley can be trusted not to abuse admin powers, and
> it's not supposed to be a big deal. He got 70% to 30%, but a lot of the
> objections were irrelevant in my opinion.
>
> I had objected vociferously at first (go ahead, look it up ;-) but Erik
> (user:Eloquence) convinced me to change my vote to neutral. I have been
> reading the comment stream, and now I feel I should take matters into my
> own hands.
>
> Any objections?
>
> Ed Poor
> Bureaucrat
>

Ed, please don't do this. Think of the message it will send. Not only
will it look like the ArbCom is toothless, but all those people who
think that Wikipedia is run by a cabal of administrators who do
whatever they want without reprecussion (a completly ridiculus idea),
what will it say to them? Here is a user who is under arbcom-parole,
who has no clear consensus on his RfA (70% is not consensus) who is
being promoted by a bureocrat that don't do that many promotions
anymore, and just happens to be a good friend of him. They might quote
the bureocrats talk-page where it says in response to this very user
"...I always watch out for my friends". It would look really, really
bad.

My opinion is that admins and bureocrats should stay out of making
decisions on cases where they are involved. If you are a friend of a
user on RfA, and the outcome isn't clear, you cannot possibly judge
objectively, however you are.

The arbcom ruling says that WMC can apply to the arbcom for lifting of
his band in one month, was it? If he gets it lifted (something quite
probable) he would almost certainly pass.

Can't this wait a few weeks?

- gkhan


from_name: Michael Turley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
On 7/14/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> > I'm appalled by the idea. The articles are part
> > of Wikipedia; a project's work should be *invisible*
> > except the results themselves.
>
> As I said I don't care as strongly about placement
> of the WikiProject tags as the other metadata tags
> under consideration.
>
> I'd like to note that one of the things that
> initially pulled me into Wikipedia was the humble
> {{stub}} template.
>
> "... you can help Wikipedia by expanding it."
>
> I can? Really? Where do I sign up?!
>
> Regards,
> Haukur

Exactly my point.  The stub tag is perhaps the best of the lot, as it
is a very clear invitation to participate, and implies that the new
editor's contributions would be appreciated by someone out there in
Wikipedia-land.  It's also what drew me into the project.

Full creation invisibility is, in my opinion, the very worst way we
could possibly present data to our readers.  Other encyclopedias
already do that; they say "Here's the article, never you mind where it
came from.  We're the authorities, you just read.  And don't come
complaining if it doesn't cover all you think it should; we make the
editorial decisions here, not you."  If Wikipedia wasn't fundamentally
different than that, I wouldn't bother to contribute.

You involve more users by having a few loose ends showing, and you're
honest with the readers who won't get involved if you admit up front
that yes, those are loose ends you see there.
--
Michael Turley
User:Unfocused


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Policy clarification: creation of nds-nl.wikipedia.org

body:
Hi everyone,

after the long discussion about nds-nl.wikipedia.org I would just like to know
1) who is responsible for making the decision
2) whom do we have to write to to get it created.

Again:
* there is a broad consensus that we need a separate nds-nl.wikipedia.org
* there is only one lone cruisaider who does not want that, and I am not
interested in his trolling any longer
* we have at least one native speaker
* we have the neccessary 5 supporters
* we do have a broad consensus on meta that this wikipedia is neccessary.

So what is lacking now. It cannot be Mark's consent, because he is just one,
and he has lost the vote on meta. Besides it does not make sense to feed the
trolls. He is twisting our words in our mouth.

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

>I love to second this request. We also write Arabic, Georgian, Hebrew,
>Thai, Chinese and Farsi it in its script, the whole point IS that we
>write it as it is written in the script of the language, why write it
>with bad orthography?? The name of the language in Italian is:
>*italiano. *Please make it so.

Hey, it seems that I'm the only Italian on this list and that as soon as I
leave the computer for two or three days something interesting happens.

In Italian, language names *used* to be capitalized, and the adjectiove
for inhabitants (Italians, Americans and so on) as well. The recent trend
is instead to not capitalize those names. The result is that you can find
both forms, since older people are used the first and younger people to
the second. People who want their writing to be seen as "learned" and
authoritative might use the capitalized form too...

The problem anyway doens't exist since the interwiki list is indeed a
list, and there's no problem in having a list with capitalized items, be
they language names or not. So the current form is OK. A list with mixed
case would be instead quite strange and, I suspect, wrong.

Alfio


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
On 14/07/05, Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:

> Admittedly the WikiProject templates are a bit too
> big and unattractive but I wouldn't mind seeing a
> slightly prettified version of them in the article
> namespace where they are much more likely to be seen
> and do some good - perhaps attracting new editors.

Smaller and prettier versions could probably help *anyway* - there's a
few articles where the first screen (or more) of the talkpage is
entirely taken up by big boxes saying "This was a featured article"
"This was peer-reviewed" "We're making a spoken version of this" &c
&c.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


from_name: Jean-Baptiste Soufron

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Using Wikipedia for Education?

body:
I must add that I am myself experimenting wiki systems with a few
students in law classes.

Le 13 juil. 05 ? 23:36, ilooy a ?crit :

> 2005/7/12, SJ <2.718281828 at gmail.com>:
>
>> Andy Carvin writes about using Wikipedia productively for K-12
>> classes; both to help them learn to research and to help fact-check
>> the encyclopedia.
>>
>
> Hi all,
> I can vouch for the excellent response
> from K-12 schools in using Wikipedia
> for research and teaching.
>
> Of the three School Districts I work with
> two of them are already actively using it
> and have enjoyed using it this past year!
> Both Marlborough and Westmoreland
> School Districts in New Hampshire, USA
> are making good use of Wikipedia articles!
>
> Way to go Wikipedians!
>
> With regards,
> Jay B.
> en:User:ILVI
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] Fair Use and Registered Trademarks

body:
Le 12 juil. 05 ? 22:54, Robert Scott Horning a ?crit :

> Jean-Baptiste Soufron wrote:
>
>
>> Actually, I don't think you can digitize some public domain work
>> and  change its title unless you also change its content.
>>
>> At least in France, that would be forbidden by the moral rights
>> legislation.
>>
>>
>>
> This is likely to be a huge, and perhaps incompatable difference,
> between American and French law.

No it's not. It's a theoretical difference that only has a very small
practical impact.

> Changing and modifying public domain works is commonly accepted,
> and often encouraged under many circumstances.  That appears to be
> precisely what has happened here with the Gutenberg Encyclopedia.

It is the same thing in France. You can change and modify them, but
you can't claim them your own. For example you can't take "Treasure
Island" (PD) and publish it again under the title "Cool Island"
claiming to be the author of this new work. That is true in France
and in the US.

>
> From what I see, based on some research I've just done searching
> various web pages and trying to read court opinons, etc. (IANAL)
> the use of a trademark is reserved for the company who holds it.
> In this case we (or at least I am) trying to advertise the project
> and discuss the project in public forums.  In this situation, I am
> not legally entitled to describe the project as "Wikisource
> Encyclopaedia Britianica, 11th Edition", because that implies
> endorsement from Encyclopaedia Britianica, Inc.

No it does not.

In this case, you are not using the trademark but the title of a PD
book. Trademark protection is very powerful but it is limited in range.

You can perfectly call it "Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition
modified by Wikisource". You are not infringing the trademark
Britannica because you are simply using the title of a PD book.


body:
Le 13 juil. 05 ? 00:12, Delirium a ?crit :

> Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>
>
>> Jean-Baptiste Soufron wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Actually, I don't think you can digitize some public domain work
>>> and  change its title unless you also change its content.
>>>
>>> At least in France, that would be forbidden by the moral rights
>>> legislation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> This is likely to be a huge, and perhaps incompatable difference,
>> between American and French law.  Changing and modifying public
>> domain works is commonly accepted, and often encouraged under many
>> circumstances.  That appears to be precisely what has happened
>> here with the Gutenberg Encyclopedia.
>>
>
> Indeed, there was a recent U.S. Supreme Court case unanimously
> confirming this---a company (Dastar Corp.) republished a modified
> version of a public-domain work of film and passed it off as if
> they had produced it themselves, not attributing or mentioning at
> all the original producrs.  The original producers (Twentieth
> Century Fox Film Corp.) sued, and lost, because under U.S. law (as
> confirmed in this case), the original author of a public-domain
> work has *no* rights of any sort, not even the right to be
> credited, since by definition public-domain works are not owned in
> any fashion by anyone.

Are you sure ?

It can mean that the author has no right to be credited, but does it
mean that someone else can claim to be the author ?

The french law solution would probably be similar : there is no
obligation to name the author of a PD work, but it would be forbidden
to claim the book for its own.

> See: [[en:Dastar Corp. v. Twentieth Century Fox FilmCorp.]]
>
> Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>
>
>> From what I see, based on some research I've just done searching
>> various web pages and trying to read court opinons, etc. (IANAL)
>> the use of a trademark is reserved for the company who holds it.
>> In this case we (or at least I am) trying to advertise the project
>> and discuss the project in public forums.  In this situation, I am
>> not legally entitled to describe the project as "Wikisource
>> Encyclopaedia Britianica, 11th Edition", because that implies
>> endorsement from Encyclopaedia Britianica, Inc.  This puts the
>> Wikimedia Foundation into a real legal bind if that trademark is
>> used widely, for example as a hyperlink from Wikipedia articles to
>> Wikisource, or even discussed outside of Wikimedia projects.
>>
>
> Well, this is a gray area of law, as most trademark law is.  There
> is room for acceptable use of a trademark when reporting factual
> information, however, even in advertising---Coca-Cola uses the work
> "Pepsi" in some advertisements, for example those that report the
> results of taste tests between the two companies' products.  Simply
> stating that a verbatim copy of the 11th edition of the
> Encyclopaedia Britannica is in fact "The 11th Edition of the
> Encyclopaedia Britannica" seems like it might be a mere factual
> statement and permitted, but I wouldn't be willing to bet anything
> on that.

It is :-)


from_name: Greg Turner

subject: [Wikitech-l] "/execscriptdir/php.cgi" my eye!

body:
I've just installed MediaWiki at http://www.gregturner.org/wiki. As you
can see, it's got all of the link URLs wrong, including for the
stylesheet. At first, it didn't run at all, returning a 500 because the
URL redirected to
http://gregturner.org/execscriptdir/php.cgi/index.php?title=Main_Page. I
looked in LocalSettings.php and found:

$wgScriptPath	    = "/execscriptdir/php.cgi"

which I changed to

$wgScriptPath	    = "/wiki"

and then it ran, but still the links are messed up. I've had a manual
look about (but this isn't my computer and I can't batch search the
contents of files) and can't find any other mention of execscriptdir.

phpInfo stores this string on

SCRIPT_FILENAME and
SCRIPT_NAME

plus when surrounded by _SERVER[] or _ENV[]

The question: where in the code is it getting the value
"/execscriptdir/php.cgi" for every URL and where can I change it to "/wiki"?

Thanks a lot!

G.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: U.S. copyright law and European servers

body:
I think there are two things we should remember

First, the fact that DB are only in USA right now, does not mean no DB
will ever be in other countries. It could happen sooner than expected
and within the precautionary principle, I'd say it is probably a good
idea to avoid using fair use image as much as possible.

Second, we should not forget we are not building an unique central
resource for final users, but building a resource to be used by anyone.
While we repeat over and over that our resource is free to use, this is
only true for text and as such potentially confusing for those reusing
the entirery of the content. I feel that each time we provide an image
which is only "with permission for wikipedia" or "fair use (in the
USA)", we are bringing confusion to those reusing our content, as they
may not realise *they* have no permission to use the image, or are using
an image illegal in their country.

It is embarassing.
It is not just a "legal" issue, that is an ethical issue.

ant

Nyenyec N a ?crit:
> This is somewhat related to the ongoing "fair use" discussion.
>
> AFAIK, there are Wikipedia servers in Paris and Amsterdam.
>
> Is it OK for Wikipedia to use an image under U.S. copyright law based
> on "fair use" and the given image is hosted on French or Dutch server
> and is served to French or Dutch clients but is copyrighted under
> French or Dutch law?
> Isn't that a copyright violation?
>
> (I assumed that there is no equivalent of "fair use" in France or in
> the Netherlands, but I really don't have a clue...)
>
> Wouldn't this be a problem as more and more servers are installed in
> an increasing number of countries?
>
> Thanks,
> nyenyec


from_name: Roman Maurer

body:
Delirium pravi:

> Indeed; I don't see how this is an issue of whether languages typically
> capitalize nationalities or not.  If you look at the sidebar, *all* the
> menu entries are capitalized in all the languages I've just
> spot-checked, whether they're proper nouns or not.  "Community portal"
> starts with a capital "C" on en:, and "Accueil communaut?" starts with a
> capital "A" on fr:, and so on.  I don't see why we would specifically
> lowercase the language names, while everything else in the menus is
> capitalized.

The sidebar menu entries are supposed to be *titles* of their respective
pages, as opposed to the language names, which are ... well, language
*names* rather than article (or page) titles.
--
	Pozdrav,
	  Roman


from_name: Haukur Þorgeirsson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
> Posting things like ToDo lists in the article itself or adding instruction
> creep such as WikiProject tags hurts more than helps and makes our content
> less usable to third parties.

The effort needed by a content reuser to
remove a WikiProject tag is negligible.

> We have talk pages, let's use them.

We do. But I read a lot more main pages
than talk pages so I'm much more likely
to pay attention to a tag on an article
than on its talk page.

Regards,
Haukur


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Greg Turner wrote:
>
>> The question: where in the code is it getting the value
>> "/execscriptdir/php.cgi" for every URL and where can I change it to
>> "/wiki"?
>
>
> That's what PHP and your web server are reporting. See config/index.php
> for the exact variables it checks.

That's my point - I did, and I changed the $conf->ScriptPath line as
follows:

$conf->ScriptPath = "/wiki";

This stops the index.php from redirecting somewhere wrong, but all the
URLs are still broken with "/execscriptdir/php.cgi" instead of "/wiki".


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
> Our primary audience is readers.
> They outnumber editors at least 50 to 1.

As I see it the primary goal of the Wikipedia project
is to *create* an encyclopedia - not to *be* an
encyclopedia. Thus editors are more important than
readers.

And if seeing some metatags makes casual readers
better aware of the nature of the project then
that's just for the better.

> Keeping things nice and clean for them and targeting messages aimed at
> editors to places where editors hang out (talk pages and edit screens)
is > the way to go.

Editors "hang out" in the article name space
more than on the talk pages. And we should not
give the illusion that something is "nice and
clean" when a warning that it isn't would be
more honest and useful.

> The only exception I can see to this would be for
> really sub-standard articles where the messages
> help to warn readers.

I'm glad we agree that such metadata belongs in the
article space. Currently very many of our articles
are below the standard which readers are likely to
expect of a recently published encyclopedia. Thus I
don't see anything wrong with using such tags a lot.

As for the WikiProject tags I don't actually feel
that strongly about them. I wouldn't mind having
them in the article space but I'm not upset that
more people seem to lean the other way.

Regards,
Haukur


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: ERD

body:
Update of the ERD

It now includes a better link to Etymology, Pronunciation, Collections
(think external thesauri and glossari).

I am uncertain about Language; as it stands it can also function for
dialects but I think I have to do some more thinking on that one because
this also includes other ways of writing eg simplified vs traditional
Chinese..

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Zoney

body:
On 7/14/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think there are two things we should remember
>
> First, the fact that DB are only in USA right now, does not mean no DB
> will ever be in other countries. It could happen sooner than expected
> and within the precautionary principle, I'd say it is probably a good
> idea to avoid using fair use image as much as possible.
>
> Second, we should not forget we are not building an unique central
> resource for final users, but building a resource to be used by anyone.
> While we repeat over and over that our resource is free to use, this is
> only true for text and as such potentially confusing for those reusing
> the entirery of the content. I feel that each time we provide an image
> which is only "with permission for wikipedia" or "fair use (in the
> USA)", we are bringing confusion to those reusing our content, as they
> may not realise *they* have no permission to use the image, or are using
> an image illegal in their country.
>
> It is embarassing.
> It is not just a "legal" issue, that is an ethical issue.
>
> ant
>
>
>
> Nyenyec N a ?crit:
> > This is somewhat related to the ongoing "fair use" discussion.
> >
> > AFAIK, there are Wikipedia servers in Paris and Amsterdam.
> >
> > Is it OK for Wikipedia to use an image under U.S. copyright law based
> > on "fair use" and the given image is hosted on French or Dutch server
> > and is served to French or Dutch clients but is copyrighted under
> > French or Dutch law?
> > Isn't that a copyright violation?
> >
> > (I assumed that there is no equivalent of "fair use" in France or in
> > the Netherlands, but I really don't have a clue...)
> >
> > Wouldn't this be a problem as more and more servers are installed in
> > an increasing number of countries?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > nyenyec
>

It's people having their heads in the sand is what it is.

The incorporation of "fair use" images in Wikipedia ensures that the
encyclopaedia as a whole cannot straightforwardly be
used/redistributed outside of the US.

The grand theories of a free resource for all ring hollow with so much
work required to create a redistribution of the encyclopaedia,
omitting the non-GFDL images, but including all the great free licence
ones that are there.

Zoney

--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
>> The effort needed by a content reuser to
>> remove a WikiProject tag is negligible.
>
> For one page. What do you propose to do for mirrors? 1.0? The
> eventual dreamed-of DVD disributions?

The effort is still negligible, can be easily
automated and pales in comparison with other
aspects of those tasks.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
On 14/07/05, Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> after the long discussion about nds-nl.wikipedia.org I would just like to know
> 1) who is responsible for making the decision
> 2) whom do we have to write to to get it created.
>
> Again:
> * there is a broad consensus that we need a separate nds-nl.wikipedia.org

Consensus? How many people agree that there should be one? Consensus
generally means everybody agrees. Otherwise, it means that there are a
very large group of people involved, and nearly all agrees. Here I
think there are perhaps 5 or 6 people involved, 1 disagrees, and you
have now chosen to ignore me entirely rather than respond to the very
real issues I have raised.

> * there is only one lone cruisaider who does not want that, and I am not
> interested in his trolling any longer

Right, since it is all your decision. You said elsewhere "I don't want
nds.wiki to turn into a linguistic expirment", "I don't want..." this
"I don't want..." that... I've been told that I'm arrogant, but that
is certainly without question the most arrogant part of this
discussion -- when you say "I don't want..." in such a way as if you
are the leader of all Wikipedia, and what you want is followed by all.

> * we have at least one native speaker

...who claimed on his userpage a level of nds-3, which he still has
not clarified. He said that Dutch is the more polite language... bla
bla bla... but this still doesn't explain why he didn't give Low Saxon
as his mother tongue from the beginning.

> * we have the neccessary 5 supporters

> * we do have a broad consensus on meta that this wikipedia is neccessary.

A broad consensus -- 7 people agree, and one person disagrees? How
many of these 7 people are native speakers? 1, at best. You and Slomox
admitted it isn't your native language, Wouter said he is not, Walter
is not either, Guaka seems to be a native speaker of Limburgs rather
than Low Saxon, Oscar claims on his userpage that Dutch is his native
language and claims no skill at all for Low Saxon, and Arbeo says he
has "Some passive (reading) skills in" Low Saxon, which I would say
for myself, too.

But look at the proposal for Sranang Tongo: Waerth, Muijz, Quistnix,
Jeroenvrp, Revoluci?n, and Qyz are all willing to work on it, and Kim
Bruning also supports it. That's 7 people. But, none of them are
native speakers, and only Waerth (Walter) has any skills in the
language at all, as far as I can tell.

The proposal for Papiamentu: Dedalus, Waerth, Caesarion, Quistnix,
Jeroenvrp, Revoluci?n, and Jay Bowks are willing to work on it, and it
is supported also by Kim Bruning and ILVI. That's 9 people -- 9 PEOPLE
-- and yet it hasn't been created either due to unsure status
problems.

 > So what is lacking now. It cannot be Mark's consent, because he is just one,
> and he has lost the vote on meta. Besides it does not make sense to feed the
> trolls. He is twisting our words in our mouth.

What is lacking is a sufficient explanation of the questions I have
raised. I don't raise them just because I am curious but because I
think there are serious problems in your proposal. Anybody is hesitant
to grant what appears at first glance to be a new Wikipedia on
national borders, so I think it is in your interest to be patient and
explain things on-list, because if your explanation makes sense in the
end it is much more likely a Wikipedia will be created than if it
leaves questions unanswered.

Mark


body:
> The incorporation of "fair use" images in Wikipedia ensures that the
> encyclopaedia as a whole cannot straightforwardly be
> used/redistributed outside of the US.

As I keep pointing out "fair use" images aren't
the only problem. Wikipedia has many photographs
of old artworks. The photographs themselves are
explicitly protected by copyright law in Europe
but not in the United States as the Bridgeman
ruling showed.

So, many of the images tagged "pd-art" or with
other pd-tags aren't actually in the public
domain in Europe.

And then there are books published before 1923
in Europe. Those are in the public domain in
the United States but often not in Europe.
The artwork of [[Arthur Rackham]] is a good
example. A British reuser would do well to
be careful in using those, their pd-tags
notwithstanding. Currently few people pay
attention to this as is demonstrated by the
fact that one of these images was recently
promoted to a featured picture. The featured
pictures are the images on Wikipedia that
have received the greatest scrutiny, including
scrutiny of their license.

And I hear there may be problems with public
domain images from U.S. federal agencies outside
of the United States.

All in all a version of Wikipedia stripped of
all images that could be problematic outside
the United States would be stripped of *many*
good images. I don't really think that's a good
course to take. We should, however, be careful
to tag everything clearly.

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Ben Raskob

subject: [Wikitech-l] TeX Fonts

body:
Hello,
I'm running a MediaWiki server on a linux box running Kubuntu,
and I'm trying to get my environment set up for TeX use. It all
went pretty well, but I can't seem to use the 'ominus' or 'otimes'
fonts. I have 'oplus' though. Can anyone tell me how to get
the 'ominus' font?

Thanks,
Ben


from_name: taro iki

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Japanese Wikinews set up

body:
Erik,

we thank you very much for your work.
We're very glad for the ja.wikinews.org!

--
qqqqq - ?

__________________________________
Save the earth
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ondanka/


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
> I'm appalled by the idea. The articles are part
> of Wikipedia; a project's work should be *invisible*
> except the results themselves.

As I said I don't care as strongly about placement
of the WikiProject tags as the other metadata tags
under consideration.

I'd like to note that one of the things that
initially pulled me into Wikipedia was the humble
{{stub}} template.

"... you can help Wikipedia by expanding it."

I can? Really? Where do I sign up?!

Regards,
Haukur


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: ERD

body:
Rodolfo Raya wrote:

>On 7/14/05, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>
>
>>I have started anew on an ERD for the UW.
>>
>>
>
>Have you considered designing an XCS template to use with TBX exports?
>
>You may want to take a look at the default template included in TBX
>specs and  remove the fields that you consider irrelevant. Once you
>define the template, it would be easier to identify the requirements
>of the application and write an UML or ERD diagram.
>
>Regards,
>Rodolfo
>
Hoi,
The first thing I need to do is to make sure that we can host the data
in the database. To do that there are several requirements that I have
to allow for;
* The user interface must be in the language indicated by the user.
* Ultimate Wiktionary is to use its own dog food or, if some terminology
required in the UI is not there, it must be possible to add it within
Ultimate Wiktionary
* It must be possible to host all words of all languages in this database.
* We need cooperation of many people to make it all possible so I need
to acknowledge glossaries and thesauri that we are given to host within UW
* Users must be able to select the languages that they want to see.

The budget that we have to create UW is minimal. We will be happy if we
can get it to work and host the data.within a limited amount of time.We
have considered TBX. There are however TWO crucial things before we can
consider exporting to TBX, the first is IMPORT, the second one is
analysis of what the export should be for. If the Dutch content will be
222.000+ words to start of with and everyone starts hitting our servers
because you can, it makes for some optimalisation. If the export is
based on a need of only the changed content, it is different again. When
the need is associated with the projected reference implementation, it
makes sense to consider how we will ask translators to aid in the
content of the UW.

Sabine for instance already adds content to the Italian wiktionary based
on her translations. When we ask it as part of the reference
implementation for a translation glossary, we want to encourage
translators to work on the content like Sabine does, finding the right
way is crucial. When we start with UW, it may be important to have some
Quality Assurance measures built in. This is also very much intrinsic to
the database design and that is what is currently being worked on.
Currently there are some 17 tables that make up the ERD, there is need
for some more.

Over the last year I have had many conversations about what should be in
an Ultimate Wiktionary. Now I am trying to integrate it all. I have
posted the design to the uw-creations at googlegroups.com and I have posted
it at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ERD.jpg As you should
understand it is a working document and if you have questions of
suggestions do not hesitate to discuss them with me and with others.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: rose.parks at att.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
Hi,

     I disagree totally with the notion of putting these templates on the article page. They run counter to the main principle of Wikipedia, that "anyone can edit." It seems like the learning curve for a new editor must be kept at a _minimum level_. Otherwise, you will not attract new editors. Further, for readers, they are just distracting.

                     As Ever,

                         Ruth Ifcher

--

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Haukur ?orgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is>
> > I'm appalled by the idea. The articles are part
> > of Wikipedia; a project's work should be *invisible*
> > except the results themselves.
>
> As I said I don't care as strongly about placement
> of the WikiProject tags as the other metadata tags
> under consideration.
>
> I'd like to note that one of the things that
> initially pulled me into Wikipedia was the humble
> {{stub}} template.
>
> "... you can help Wikipedia by expanding it."
>
> I can? Really? Where do I sign up?!
>
> Regards,
> Haukur
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
> You could have saved yourself some work.  An English translation of the
> whole law is available at
> http://www.unesco.org/culture/copy/copyright/iceland/iceland.html

Great! Thanks! Let's look at article 14 in
a better translation than I could make:

"Article 14. It is permitted to quote from a disseminated literary work,
including dramatic works, as well as disseminated cinematographic works
and works of music, if this is done in the context of critical and
scientific treatises, general information or some other recognized
purpose, provided the quotation is correct and of reasonable length.

With the same limitations it is permitted to reproduce pictures and
drawings of disseminated works of art and documents mentioned in the third
paragraph of Article 1.

If pictures or drawings of two or more works by the same author are
reproduced in the context of a text for general information, then the
author is entitled to remuneration."

So, that's Icelandic fair use for you.
The wording sounds broad enough, what
with "general information" and all.

What I want to know is if all of Wikipedia
would be considered one text, which would
be severely limiting, or if each article
would be considered on its own - which
would allow one to do almost anything.

At any rate this doesn't sound any less
clear or more limiting than what I've
been able to glean of U.S. fair use
stipulations.

As for the rest of Europe I don't know.
One thing to remember is that Iceland is
not a part of the European Union, an
organization which I seem to remember
recently publishing a little directive
concerning this...

> The prevailing right to use one picture is especially interesting.  In
> many instances that would be more than enough for our purposes.

Yes, that's actually pretty reasonable.

> The difficulty is in determining how much remuneration is fair.

Other such remuneration stipulations always seem
to be as a percentage of money made. But I'm not
a lawyer.

Regards,
Haukur

P.S. Here's a quote from article 15:

"It is permitted to reproduce in newspapers, periodicals, television
programmes and in films, pictures or drawings of disseminated works of art
in connection with narrative accounts of current events."

This would be helpful for an Icelandic version
of something like wikinews.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Poll on templates

body:
> The thing about templates like {{stub}}, {{NPOV}} and so on is that they
> are temporary by their nature - they indicate a problem that needs fixing.
> The problem is fixed and the tag goes away.

Agreed.

> Project tags on an article would be permanent by nature. That's not so
> good IMO.

Ah... I wouldn't be too happy with permanent
project tags either. I was thinking of projects
like "collaboration of the week" which is also
quite temporary.

Most of the templates under vote are temporary.
I agree that things like {{Template:Album}} and
{{Template:DrugsNotice}} might be a bit too
distracting to have in the article space.
I'd probably support a small unobtrusive link.

I've always felt that the featured label belongs
in the article namespace. A small star accompanied
with the words "Featured article", linking to more
information, would be enough.

Regards,
Haukur


body:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Your e-mails are VERY LONG!! I can't read all of it since most of it
> is BLABLABLA... I'll reply to only a few points which you stated:

You might as well say "I don't know what to say to most of the things
you said. They're good arguments, and I have no logical rebuttal. But,
I will make a snide remark in an attempt to dodge them, and only argue
against the few points which I feel I have a good case for."

> First of all the Low Saxon page is translated, I haven't had the
> chance to actually read everything word for word... I don't care in
> what group Grunnings or Stellingwarvs and Sleeswyks falls... you are
> correct though that Oost-Vrys (Ostfr?isk, or something like that) is
> understandable to us, the spelling used is a bit complicated but the
> reason why we can understand it is because it is closely related to
> Westlauwers-Vrys. Since Oost-Vrys isn't used on nds.wiki it's not
> relevant, FYI, I read somewhere someone wanted to start a Ostfr?isk
> Wiki, but that's a completely different thing, not related to this at
> all. I don't even believe the information is correct, but you're
> welcome to check it if you want!!

Oostfreesk generally refers to the Low Saxon dialect spoken in
Ostfriesland, rather than the independent language spoken only in a
tiny village in the Saterland.

You say you don't care what group they fall in... you may not, but it
is very relevant here.

Again:
de noordelike groep (Sleeswyk-Holstein, Nedersaksen, Grunningen,
Drenthe, Stellingwarven, and Overyssel.)
de suudwestelike groep (Westfaolen, Twente, Sallaand, Gelderland).

In the Northern group, there is a mix of German and Dutch varieties of
Low Saxon. In the Southwest group, there are three Dutch varieties and
one German variety (Westphaelsch).

So, rather than dividing by country, it makes more sense to have one
Wikipedia for the "Noordelike groep", including Sleswigsch,
Grunnegers, Dr?ents, Stellingwarfs, and Overyssels, and another one
for the "Suudwestelike groep", including Westphaelsch, Tweants,
Sallands, and Veluws.

So, this is clear evidence -- VERY clear evidence -- that you are
placing an arbitrary dividing line.

Also, I wonder do you speak East or North Veluws? Acc'd to
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Low_Saxon_language&oldid=5202220
, East Veluws is a Dutch/Low Saxon mixed language, perhaps a Dutch
version of Missingsch.

> As you mentioned the whole of the South group is in the NL, the only
> Dutch dialect in the North group is Grunnings, I'm not Grunnings so I
> can't tell you if they understand DLS but I and most others don't
> (OKAY THAT'S CLEAR - I HOPE?) In the Netherlands we understand
> Grunnings (and for me as far as I've read Ostfr?isk, I understand it
> reasonably well) But if you know any Grunningers ask them if they
> understand the nds.wiki some will but most won't, anyone is welcome on
> the nds-nl.wiki when it's created but I'm sure that when it's created
> they'll prefer that to nds.wiki. (Looking up information should be
> easy not very difficult, then what's the point it!) the converter
> doesn't help @all for me it could as well be a currency converter, but
> I don't care, it doesn't help...

Again, you are trying to force a situation. If Grunnegers speakers can
understand it, then it is an arbitrary national division. You put the
dividing line at the border, when it doesn't make sense, especially
when you say "...I can't tell you if they understand DLS..."

> Point B: I don't care if they all have a different way of writing, if
> you want to make a wiki workable then you have to have a common
> writing system (especially if the way of pronouncing in most dialects
> are the same, only the writing style differs - as seen on nds.wiki -)

You don't care? But maybe they do. You are a speaker only of Veluws,
you cannot speak for all other Low Saxon speakers in the Netherlands.
They might want separate Wikipedias, or they might not. But then, you
wouldn't know that any better than I would, because neither of us is a
native speaker of, say, Grunnegers or Dreents.

> Point C: No one cares if it's patentplatt, if they have a problem with
> it they will change it!

Noone cares if it's patentplatt? You obviously didn't read Point C --
Jonny Meinbohm and Ron Hahn __DO__ care. Ron tried to change it, but
Heiko was as always very cold towards him and took a very uninviting
stance, as usual, rather than welcoming in and being thankful for a
native speaker as it should be.

> They may use the term LANGUAGE, but it's officially not a language but
> a DIALECT of Nedersaksisch!! (No arguing about that, that's a fact!..
> in fact most things are a fact so don't know why you're arguing)

Yes, but, then, "officially" Taiwan is part of China, yet it doesn't
generally follow laws made by the PRC government; Serbian and Croatian
are "officially" separate languages but they are at best dialects and
at worst sociolects; Cantonese and Mandarin are "officially" one
language, but most linguists will tell you they aren't; Somalia is
"officially" unified under a single government, but this is only at an
international level and the real situation is one part order two parts
chaos, with a number of self-declared independent states and powerful
warlords fighting for influence.

French is the only "official" language of France, but that doesn't
mean nobody there speaks any other languages.

What is official, and what is reality, are often different.

> I told you I'm BILINGUAL, that means I'm fluent in aswell DUTCH as
> VELUWS (NEDERSAKSISCH) but because Dutch is the prominent language and
> it's seen as most "polite" language, you hear more Dutch ...explained
> that to you in the last e-mail so not doing that again! (One has to
> explain thing 100 times to you - that's why Heiko doesn't want to
> continue this conversation because we're not getting anywhere with
> you, you don't even speak LS so how could you judge the language??
> Please for the next time you come tell your stories here, have some
> facts instead of "Mark believes that...")

Please, realise there is a difference between being fluent in a
language, and it being your mother tongue. I can study a language for
10 years at the age of 45 and become "fluent", but it won't make it my
native language. I can have a native language which I am very poor at
speaking now, just because it is my native language does not mean I am
fluent.

You still are using the two terms interchangably. Are you native AND
fluent? Or are you just fluent? "native" means it is the language of
your cradle, spoken by one or both of your parents or other people who
raised you. "fluent" means you are very capable in it, and can read
books and carry on conversations and write letters. Most (but not
all!) native speakers are also fluent, but by far not all fluent
speakers are native.

> TIP: For you next e-mail make it SHORT and don't talk BLABLABLA but
> with actual content, to which we can reply!

What exactly are you talking about here? I never once said
"BLABLABLA"... you put those words in my mouth.

So, to sum up, the main points which you still have not responded to
(you said to some of them even that you "didn't care") are...

1) The groupings of Low Saxon dialects/languages/varieties/speeches
indicates that the dividing line is more properly drawn between North
and South, not East (Germany) and West (Netherlands).

In case you still don't seem to get it, I've made an illustration:
http://fixedsys.org/~node_ue/o'ohadag/index.PNG

The red is Northern, and the purple is Southwestern. As you can see,
each extends into Germany. The long dark blue line is the division YOU
would have us make between "German Low Saxon" and "Dutch Low Saxon".

I've also labelled other languages of the Netherlands, I think it
makes it easier to relate with the map.

2) It's quite self-serving of you to say, "Well, they're officially
one language" just because you want them to have a single Wikipedia. I
can't find very many pages that say "dutch low saxon":
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22dutch+low+saxon%22 finds 275 pages;
out of the first 10, 3 are from your messages to this list, and most
of the other ones have them as consecutive members of a list, like:
"Dutch, Low Saxon" (with Frisian or German usually coming after), or
in the phrase "Dutch/Low Saxon mixture" to refer to East Veluws.

"netherlands low saxon" only finds 10 results, only one of which seems
to be referring to it as a variant (others are in phrases like "In the
Netherlands, Low Saxon is...".

If we subtract all the "Dutch/Low Saxon mixture" results, we get
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22dutch+low+saxon%22+-%22mixture+dialect+in+gelderland%22
174 pages.

Among the first 10 of these, 5 of them are from messages written by
you. None of the other ones in the first 10 refer to "Dutch Low Saxon"
(again, they are all parts of lists and the like)  except for
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2003-April/msg00069.html ,
which actually raises the issue of disunity of Low Saxon in the
Netherlands, with many different dialects, orthographies, etc.

Now, you asked me to present you with "facts" rather than my opinion.
I have provided you with plenty of evidence from websites now (I will
direct you again to http://members.home.nl/goaitsen/twents/ ,
http://www.drentsetaol.nl/ http://www.grunnegertoal.nl/ , and
http://www.stellingwarfs.nl/ ...) that 1) not many people seem to
believe in a variety called "Dutch Low Saxon"; 2) many people regard
Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Dr?ents, Tweants, Achterhooks, Veluws,
Overyssels, etc. as separate languages.

Mark