from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] Cooperation with EUobserver

body:
While initially I thought this agreement was a good idea, and still see
these sorts of things as in our interest, in this particular case it
seems mostly useless.  The summaries on their front page seem to be
typically two to three sentences long, so it'd be trivial in the absence
of this agreement to simply use their full articles as a source and
write an article incorporating the information therein ourselves.  We
already incorporate factual information from other news sources (BBC
News, CNN, Reuters, AP, etc.) in this manner.

-Mark


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Cooperation with EUobserver

body:
Alex-
> If they are agreeing to release their material under the GFDL
> they have the right to be cited as at least one of the five
> most major contributors to the article.  it says this in the
> GFDL.

They are agreing to release it into the public domain, so that's not an
issue.

While I'm talking to a lawyer -- a completely unreleated issue: Do you
know whether the text of patent documents (i.e. the description of patent
claims filed with the USPTO) is copyrighted or not? The USPTO offers these
documents for free download, but I'm not sure if it would be legal for us
to use extensive quotes (beyond fair use) from recently filed patents. I
did a Google search but that's really difficult with only "patent"
"copyright" and "public domain" as possible search words, as you can
imagine ..

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Welcome back Adam

body:
Jake-
>> This is the point that I exit the conversation.. the next thing you know
>> someone will mention sie and hir and that just always puts me into a mood
>> to stab people... G'nite folks! Thank you Cleveland!!! Rock on!

> Indeed, my reaction as well. I use [[singular they]] or avoid using pronouns
> altogether.

:-) Everyone hates "sie and hir", except for some really strange people
(i.e. potential Wikipedians). Using "sie and hir" is one of those things
which you can only do on the Internet, because if you did it in real life,
violence would almost certainly result. The most idiotic thing about it is
that "sie" is actually German for "she", so if you speak German, the pain
factor increases about tenfold. Which makes it eligible for being illegal
torture under international human rights conventions.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] Broken link on your website

body:
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
> At 09:22 AM 9/30/03 +1200, Richard Grevers wrote:
> >I wonder if their crawler respects robots.txt?
>
> I would assume not--robots.txt is a protocol for honest people, not
> spammers and liars.

They claim it does. They did hit robots.txt, and their accesses today seem
to be within the general settings (no access to /w/wiki.phtml?whatever).
I've changed it to now disallow any access by them on their next visit,
we'll see what happens.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 21:23, Alex T. wrote:
[a whole bunch of stuff]

Alex, every version of every page that has been released under the FDL
through this project *has been released under the FDL*. It can be
redistributed by anyone who received it under that license, and
Wikipedia's servers continue to redistribute them under that license as
part of Wikipedia.

It is the very essence of what we're trying to do that material from the
project can be reused and redistributed under that same free license. To
claim that this should be taken away after another revision has been
made is to pervert the system, to demolish the community editing system,
to strangle the right to fork, to pull the rug of liberty from under the
feet of reuse.

In short, I can only assume we're misunderstanding each other badly,
because I can't believe anyone would try to make the argument that
legitimately edited, publically released, FDL-licensed past revisions
are no longer redistributable under the terms of the license that they
have been released to the world under. That would be to argue against
everything this project stands for.

The arguments about it being _unfair_ to later contributors to not use
their work don't make any sense to me, and appear to explicitly reject
what the project's use of the FDL license explicitly embraces: the
ability to reuse and if desired separately develop free encyclopedia
materials under a free license.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikitech-l] Image list does not work

body:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciaal:Imagelist

Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in
/usr/local/apache/common/php/GlobalFunctions.php on line 81

> HTML uploads now served as text/plain

Is this only for the English or also for the dutch?

--
Contact: walter AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be


subject: [Wikitech-l] Image list does not work

body:
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciaal:Imagelist
>
> Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in
> /usr/local/apache/common/php/GlobalFunctions.php on line 81

It looks fine to me on normal settings... this triggers it:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Speciaal:Imagelist&sort=bydate&limit=500

Lessee...

76 function wfImageUrl( $img )
77 {
78    global $wgUploadPath;
79
80     $nt = Title::newFromText( $img );
81     $name = $nt->getDBkey();

Oh ho! Another bug exposed by the new stricter title error checking
upstream. Something got uploaded with an invalid name, looks like.

Add a check... now we see it:

(besc)
 . . 0 bytes . .
Marieus
. . 19 sep 2003 22:19 (Basel, Marktplatz en Stadhuis)

Interesting. :P

+----------+----------+-------------------------------+----------+---------------+----------------+
| img_name | img_size | img_description               | img_user | img_user_text | img_timestamp  |
+----------+----------+-------------------------------+----------+---------------+----------------+
|          |        0 | Basel, Marktplatz en Stadhuis |     1238 | Marieus       | 20030919201916 |
+----------+----------+-------------------------------+----------+---------------+----------------+

Yup, a failed upload got recorded somehow.

I've removed that row from the table.

> > HTML uploads now served as text/plain
>
> Is this only for the English or also for the dutch?

Site-wide.

If it would be really really useful to have a place for live HTML uploads
directly on wikipedia's server, I could perhaps set something up under
another virtual host where login cookies would be inaccessible from
javascript.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [WikiEN-l] Cooperation with EUobserver

body:
It would be ironic of course, that a "contract" could be made by an individual representing wikipedia-- while each wikipedian must make a contract with wiki upon each edit. But the agreement with EUObserver thus is not at all a deal with wikipedia-- rather a Wikipedian (Erik) convincing them to allow their leads to be free under FDL --  Any agreement is just an understanding that we tend to follow the terms of the same liscence-- not a promise --not an obligation. WTBD? (whats the big...)

~S~

Delirium <delirium at rufus.d2g.com> wrote:
While initially I thought this agreement was a good idea, and still see
these sorts of things as in our interest, in this particular case it
seems mostly useless. The summaries on their front page seem to be
typically two to three sentences long, so it'd be trivial in the absence
of this agreement to simply use their full articles as a source and
write an article incorporating the information therein ourselves. We
already incorporate factual information from other news sources (BBC
News, CNN, Reuters, AP, etc.) in this manner.

-Mark

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: Alex T.

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
From: "Brion Vibber" <brion at pobox.com>

> Where such things exist (that is, where the FDL license was never valid
> because the copyright owner didn't agree and fair use is not clear, or
> where the material violated the [explicit? implicit?] terms of use of
> the site and were thus unacceptable to Wikipedia in the first place),
> the revisions in question should be withdrawn from distribution -- that
> is, removed from the 'old' table so they are no longer distributed by
> Wikipedia on the web and in public database dumps.

Who decides if they were fair use? Do we have a US Federal District
Court judge who can render binding fair use opinions? Do we have
someone who can even say what is a copyright violation? It is all opinion.
It is all contribution. If someone starts mucking with the archives and
with page histories how can that be good for the project? The violation,
the infringement, the tortious conduct such as defamation or invasion of
privacy are all the work of volunteer contributors. It is their wrong, it is
their copyright infringement, it is their action, it is not the action of
"us" or
"we". There is no "us" or "we" in this regard. Wiki software also this,
each individual has an individual voice that is properly recorded in the
page history files. Each voice belongs to each individual, it is only "we"
by virtue of it all being stored in one domain and through its collaborative
evolution from "I" to "we" that transcends these petty offenses.

> Please provide a list of any such revisions you are aware of

All the pages that were deletion candidates at some time in the history
of Wikipedia that were blanked as copyright infringements and replaced with
stubs and not deleted. That is an accurate description of the complete
list of pages that you can find in every copy of the Wikipedia databases
relative to copyright infringements. Regarding any other type of mischief,
well that will require much research into the history of the database
as most likely those pages were blanked and not deleted so somewhere
within a page history there may be a page that has some "illegal" content
(that is if someone can authoritatively state what that illegal content was
otherwise there will be decisions made that were wrong and that may
harm the collective history of Wikipedia).

I imagine that if five articles get listed every day as copyright violations
and they are replaced by stubs over a year that means there are probably
thousands of such pages out there in the Wikipedia databases. After these
are all identified it would be interesting to know exactly how many of
these hidden so called "violations" were found.

> The suggestion that older revisions are no longer under the FDL is
> completely incomprehensible to me. They are a part of Wikipedia. They were
> provided to Wikipedia under the FDL and no other terms.

They could be considered prior drafts. If people collaoborate don't they
have an expectation that their contribution will be made part of the
collaboration?
So if I collaborate in good faith and add something to an article my
contribution
can be completely ignored because someone wants to link to an older version
because _they_ think it is better? They should rewrite it and let me look at
it. If I
accept it then they can use it, if not I can edit it and make it even
better. They
should not be allowed to just do reverts because they feel like it. That
seems
to me to be very similar to a vandal blanking a page. It is not true
collaborative
spirit, it is the tyranny of individual choice; collaborative creativity is
an explicit
part of wiki software and Wikipedia's raison d'etre as well.

It seems to me that even the FDL implies that only the latest version of
a Wikipedia article may be considered released under it's terms. If you are
working
on a FDL text and something is added to it, you become a joint copyright
owners
with all prior copyright owners. Can the public cut you out of the copyright
because they happen not to like your contribution? Does that seem fair? What
if my contribution is the most major contribution to the article and I have
completely
rewritten it. The FDL says that you have to cite at least the five principal
contributors,
if you can just pick any version of the article then you can decide who the
five
principal contributors are, rewrite any contribution made and cut a
principal
contributor's name out of it? We do not grant copyright, we only grant
Wikipedia
a non-exclusive license under the FDL. I would argue that implied in
that license is the good faith expectation that a useful contribution will
not
be ignored by someone who thinks a prior version is better without them
trying to work the two of them together otherwise they are misusing the
license in bad faith. There is an implied term of good faith in every
contract
and  use of Wikipedia is a contract, the FDL is only one part of that
contract,
therefore if they use an old page version when they could use a newer page
version they are violating their contract with Wikipedia and the contract
of association that they have entered into with all other Wikipedia
contributors who have contributed to said article.

Also the FDL has a term that states that history must be preserved
when the FDL document is modified (and it says modified, not deleted).
Thus if someone looks at a page history they must cite that whole page
history, not merely some part of the page history. If they copy the document
they should copy the page history, not part of it. Therefore it is implied
in this term that one has an obligation to use the current version of a wiki
page released under the FDL section 4(i).

> Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't make any sense to me. Are
> bookstores forbidden from selling the first edition of a book after the
> second edition is released? Is Linux 2.2 contraband because Linux 2.4 is
> available and now I have to contract separately with every contributor to
> Linux 2.2 if I want to use the slimmer older version for an embedded
> device with limited memory? There's no expiration date on the license.
> (Besides the expiration date of the copyright, of course!)

Wikipedia is not a book, nor is it software. The fact is that if someone
links
to a particular Wikilink they always get the current page, they don't get
the
version they saw when they logged on previously.  The get the current
version
which is being released. I think there is an argument that when someone
contributes to an article they expect the public will be looking at that
article
including their contribution. If you are saying that people can just use old
versions of an article when newer versions are available, then what kind
of value is there to wiki contribution?  I do not see how the software
analogy works here. There are not copies of it sitting on
a shelf somewhere and it is not a question of utility as in software. It is
the
question of an ongoing collaborative knowledge project and it is the
wiki software that makes it different, not the FDL. At the very least
there is an inherent contradiction between a licensing scheme that was
written
for documents that had stable versions and a wiki developed collaborative
project that is always evolving. The evolution is a central part of what
Wikipedia is; it is also part of the process of the development of
knowledge.
Wikipedia is not static, it is dynamic, as is the sum of human knowledge.
As well the FDL states that the network location of the document has
to be linked to in FDL sect. 4(j) and as Wikipedia is being continually
edited it is never four years old so this condition can never be waived,
the network version of any document is not its place in the page history,
but its live wikilink version, once the current version gets retired into
the
page history it cannot be linked to in the same manner, one has to change
the link and it is this stable link feature of Wikipedia that insures access
to the most current version by all who link there.

The FDL talks of front cover and back cover texts. There are no such texts
on Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a book or manual, so even the
terms of the FDL are being adapted to an online encyclopedia.
Therefore there are a lot of things implied in the FDL that are not
necessarily written in it and there are things written in it that may not
be applicable because I do not think that the authors of it foresaw
it being used in a wiki context. They saw it being use in the context of
a document. Is a wikipage a document? No every pageis an integrated
collection of documents that are brought together over time. Time as
an element cannot be ignored or stopped. A wikipage is a living
document, not a static thing to be frozen.

I would even make an argument that Wikipedia has an obligation to
prevent page histories from being used as current versions when at all
possible, otherwise the value of collaboration is very minimal indeed.

We are co-creators of every page we work on and we have an expectation
that the contribution will be part of Wikipedia until the copyright expires,
or
added to with something better and more complete. Not that someone can
just wipe out our contribution because they prefer an earlier version.

 Isn't this the basis of the NPOV approach that Wikipedia is inclusive
and not exclusive and the idea that one should add to an article
and not subtract from it?

How is it collaborative, open or free content to allow others to
ignore the contributions of our co-contributors?

If one accepts the argument that page histories can be used, then in my view
one accepts the argument that someone can just delete all the
contributors of a co-author. This is in tune with an extremely economic
view of copyright that does not respect the moral rights of authors not to
have their contributions disregarded or mutilated. Sure you can buy old
books, or used software, or even copy stuff in the public domain, but
one of the reasons copyright (or really droit d'auteur) was created was
to protect the rights of creators who were oppressed and ignored. Using
old versions of Wikipedia when the newer versions are available and
not to include the contributions of a greater number of collaborators does
not
seem to me to be in the spirit of what Wikipedia is all about, it is not
in the spirit of joint ownership, once someone makes a valid
contribution we have a duty to try and make everyone aware of that
contribution. If they want to take it out, they can edit the copy they
receive, not just go digging into the internal Wikipedia archives and
'decide' that they know best. If that is the case then Wikipedia is no
more that some kind of service provider, not a real collaborative project.
Then truely there is no "we" or "us" only a lot of discordant "I"s. All
those violations can be left there because as Wikipedia evolves the
"I" is gradually being made into the "we."

Alex756


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Alex R. wrote:
> And what about copyright infringements, privacy right violations and
> defamation that his hidden in the page history. If this is all released
> under the GFDL and Wikipedia has no warranty disclaimers (which
> are allowed under the GFDL) then doesn't Wikipedia have liability
> for allowing such wrongful texts to be distributed further?

Where such things exist (that is, where the FDL license was never valid
because the copyright owner didn't agree and fair use is not clear, or
where the material violated the [explicit? implicit?] terms of use of
the site and were thus unacceptable to Wikipedia in the first place),
the revisions in question should be withdrawn from distribution -- that
is, removed from the 'old' table so they are no longer distributed by
Wikipedia on the web and in public database dumps.

Please provide a list of any such revisions you are aware of so this can
be done.

The suggestion that older revisions are no longer under the FDL is
completely incomprehensible to me. They are a part of Wikipedia. They were
provided to Wikipedia under the FDL and no other terms. We therefore
cannot distribute them under any other terms, but are free to distribute
them under the FDL. What else could they be?

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't make any sense to me. Are
bookstores forbidden from selling the first edition of a book after the
second edition is released? Is Linux 2.2 contraband because Linux 2.4 is
available and now I have to contract separately with every contributor to
Linux 2.2 if I want to use the slimmer older version for an embedded
device with limited memory? There's no expiration date on the license.
(Besides the expiration date of the copyright, of course!)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Gutza

subject: [Wikipedia-l] When will logo discussion end?

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Robert Graham Merkel wrote:
>
>
>>Can somebody tell me, please, when will this endless discussion of the
>>bloody logo end?
>>
>>
>
>Maybe we should vote on it.  But first, we'll vote on whether to vote
>on it.  And after we're done voting, we'll vote on whether the vote
>really counted.
>
>
Uh-oh, do I detect dictatorial tendencies building up inside the upper
management? :-) Not that I wouldn't welcome them, of course. Even though
two minds are better than one, it seems that a lot of brains can be less
than few...

Gutza


from_name: martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk

subject: [WikiEN-l] bans and blocks - proposed modificaion

body:
I note that there is a problem with some people on Wikipedia feeling ignored -
feeling that they did not have a proper opportunity to express their feelings on the
ban of EofT.

I note that this compares to similar problems I experienced on h2g2. On h2g2 a
"transgressions procedure" was implemented to increase the feeling of openness,
while maintaining the single point of decision, and this turned out to be highly
successful.

I have therefore made some proposed changes to
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bans_and_blocks
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bans_and_blocks

I would appreciate feedback. Jimbo has rightly expressed worries that public
discussion of bans *prior* to a banning decision can cause heartache and misery.
However, public decision *after* an initial banning decision is a separate matter.

I can vouch for this policy from personal experience, having had someone I knew
and cared for banned via this procedure. While I disagreed with the decision taken, I
did at least get the feeling that someone was listening to my opinions on the matter.

Of course, such discussion should not devolve into so-called "votes", and Jimbo
should retain the final decision. I do not seek increased openness to overthrow
Jimbo in some manner: merely to help Wikipedia exploit the healing properties of
light in what are inevitably tough and divisive decisions. As with the logo vote, I can
accept a decision that I disagree with easier, if I can accept the decision-making
process that led to it.

I commend the transgressions procedure to the cabal.
-Martin "MyRedDice" Harper


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
How is it collaborative, open or free content to allow others to
ignore the contributions of our co-contributors?

Part of collaboration in an open content context is the opportunity to
discard material that is wrong or not useful.

Fred

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Welcome back Adam

body:
sannse <sannse at delphiforums.com> wrote:
Heh... I think we just hit Moller's Law

( http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-July/005369.html )

Regards

sannse
-----

And I mispelled it, apparently its Moeller -- except on Kuroshin, where its Moller with the dots thing over the 'o.'

~S~

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
Who decides if they were fair use? Do we have a US Federal District
Court judge who can render binding fair use opinions? Do we have
someone who can even say what is a copyright violation? It is all opinion.

Well, observance of law is a duty of citizens, most of whom have limited
access to legal expertise. However being regularly engaged in a regulated
activity as our editors are, results in gradual development of expertise
which is "good enough" for our purposes.

Even if one of regular contributors was a US Federal District Court judge
and they chose to share their expertise with us it would not serve as that
would be the opinion of only one judge in one jurisdiction in a complicated
field with diverse authority.

What we have to do is in good faith do our best.

These and discussions on talk pages are a vital part of our self-education
and our program for compliance.

It is of course, opinion, but we need to form opinions which are sufficient
for our purposes, which are to appropriatly apply fair use and avoid
infringement and possible litigation.

Fred


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
The violation, the infringement, the tortious conduct such as defamation or
invasion of
privacy are all the work of volunteer contributors. It is their wrong, it is
their copyright infringement, it is their action, it is not the action of
"us" or "we". There is no "us" or "we" in this regard.

We do have a collective responsibility however it may be expressed legally.
We are working toward, and perhaps have now, established a non-profit
corporation. As a corporation the usual rules apply and the corporation is
responible with auxilliary responsibility with individuals who may have
commited a particular transgression.

Fred


body:
"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:

Martin,

>You have my support for any changes you propose to the banning and
>blocking procedure. I trust your judgment and FWIW you have my "proxy" -
>you may even erase my 2 "objections" from [[Wikipedia:Bans and blocks]],
>as they are now obsolete.

Yes, Martin is very often on-the-mark -- its good to see people seem to recognizing that. (Considering that at a certain point, I thought he was gonna get banned. ;)

~S~

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
"Alex R." <alex756 at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> We do have a collective responsibility however it may be expressed
legally.
> We are working toward, and perhaps have now, established a non-profit
> corporation. As a corporation the usual rules apply and the corporation is
> responible with auxilliary responsibility with individuals who may have
> commited a particular transgression.

I disagree with this completely. Jimbo has started a non-profit corporation
to aid in the financial stability of Wikipedia so it survives. We are not
that corporation and we will probably only participate in that corporation
by donating to it. The corporation is in no way responsible for the
contributions of members. This is outragously wrong to think that someone
is absolved of personal responsiblity by posting something to an
OSP as user: JamesDay points out that Wikipedia is. It is the poster who
always has and always will be responsible no matter how much the volunteers
try to protect the good name of Wikipedia, fundamentally it is the duty
of contributors to make sure that their work is not in violation of any
laws.

They are doing the contributing. How can we be responsible for the
defamation done by some third person, we may not even know that it
has gone on until long after it happened?
----

Which "laws" Alex? You forget to preface the term with "US" -- which as I understand it, are not the only laws in the world.  It may be that the US sometime in the future might cease to be the best home for the Wikimedia foundation... (Forgetting for while about that anarchist-Freenet last-resort option. :-) That USLaw might become incompatible with GFDL, and therefore the Wikipedia might (given some trends) become incompatible with the US. Therefore-- the Wikimedia ought by rights

But the important thing is that "its" here and we can actively contribute to it -- it always will be here, regardless of what name or "foundation" "its" under.

~S~
"My question, to this esteemed Wiki community, is this: Do you think that a Wiki could successfully generate a useful encyclopedia?" -- JimboWales
"Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki." --WardCunningham

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiPedia

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from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Broken link on your website

body:
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:07:26 -0700, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> gave
utterance to the following:

> If one of the list admins sent this through; please don't. It's *spam*.
>
> They crawl the web for e-mail addresses and then send these things out
> as advertisements for their link-checking / availability service. Which,
> of course, means they're crawling our web site and loading it down.
> *Thanks* so much.
>
I wonder if their crawler respects robots.txt? How hard would it be to id
the crawler from server logs? Does W keep server logs?
--
Richard Grevers
Between two evils always pick the one you haven't tried


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
> I think it's a bad idea to set up a Chinese wall
> between the mailing
> list and the rest of Wikipedia, including the Talk
> pages and Meta.
>
> I strongly suggest that the mailing lists be
> officially covered by the
> GFDL and that an effort be made to have all the
> participants of the past
> officially accept the GFDL for all past posts.

I agree, but it might be a bit hard with people that
posted here but have since left Wikipedia, and
especially the pseudonomous people among them. But
maybe a form letter could be emailed to everyone who
posted to this list, asking them if they have any
objections to putting the list under the FDL.
LDan

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from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Welcome back Adam

body:
Heh... I think we just hit Moller's Law

( http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-July/005369.html )

Regards

sannse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dante Alighieri" <dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Welcome back Adam

> At 12:30 PM 9/29/2003, you wrote:
> >I thought we agreed to call em Adam, but if E doesn't
> >like that, we can always use [[Spivak pronoun]]s and
> >call em Lir, as E seems to like that the best
> >(although it's unclear what gender that would imply).
> >LDan
>
> This is the point that I exit the conversation.. the next thing you know
> someone will mention sie and hir and that just always puts me into a mood
> to stab people... G'nite folks! Thank you Cleveland!!! Rock on!
>
>
>
> -----
> Dante Alighieri
> dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com
>
> "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
> neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
>     -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

body:
Martin,

You have my support for any changes you propose to the banning and
blocking procedure. I trust your judgment and FWIW you have my "proxy" -
you may even erase my 2 "objections" from [[Wikipedia:Bans and blocks]],
as they are now obsolete.

Ed Poor


body:
>Yes, Martin is very often on-the-mark -- its good to see people seem to
recognizing
>that. (Considering that at a certain point, I thought he was gonna get
banned. ;)
>
>~S~

<chuckle>, yes, I know what you mean. I thought I myself was going to
get banned when I first started at Wikipedia. Maybe it's the "reformed
sinner" who becomes the best proponent of goodness. That's one reason I
worked so hard to get Lir reinstated. Why, I must have spent at least
$500 worth of consulting time in behind-the-scenes negotiations.

Uncle Ed

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Stevertigo [mailto:utilitymuffinresearch2 at yahoo.com]
	Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 10:14 AM
	To: English Wikipedia
	Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] bans and blocks - proposed modificaion

	"Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:

	Martin,

	>You have my support for any changes you propose to the banning
and
	>blocking procedure. I trust your judgment and FWIW you have my
"proxy" -
	>you may even erase my 2 "objections" from [[Wikipedia:Bans and
blocks]],
	>as they are now obsolete.

  _____

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<http://shopping.yahoo.com/?__yltc=s%3A150000443%2Cd%3A22708228%2Cslk%3A
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from_name: Alex R.

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Bauder" <fredbaud at ctelco.net>
To: "Alex T." <alex756 at nyc.rr.com>; "English Wikipedia"
<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

> The violation, the infringement, the tortious conduct such as defamation
or
> invasion of
> privacy are all the work of volunteer contributors. It is their wrong, it
is
> their copyright infringement, it is their action, it is not the action of
> "us" or "we". There is no "us" or "we" in this regard.
>
> We do have a collective responsibility however it may be expressed
legally.
> We are working toward, and perhaps have now, established a non-profit
> corporation. As a corporation the usual rules apply and the corporation is
> responible with auxilliary responsibility with individuals who may have
> commited a particular transgression.

I disagree with this completely. Jimbo has started a non-profit corporation
to aid in the financial stability of Wikipedia so it survives. We are not
that corporation and we will probably only participate in that corporation
by donating to it. The corporation is in no way responsible for the
contributions of members. This is outragously wrong to think that someone
is absolved of personal responsiblity by posting something to an
OSP as user: JamesDay points out that Wikipedia is. It is the poster who
always
has and always will be responsible no matter how much the volunteers
try to protect the good name of Wikipedia, fundamentally it is the duty
of contributors to make sure that their work is not in violation of any
laws.
They are doing the contributing. How can we be responsible for the
defamation done by some third person, we may not even know that it
has gone on until long after it happened?

Alex756


from_name: Nikola Smolenski

subject: [Wikitech-l] a suggestion for a new option

body:
On Monday 29 September 2003 16:54, Tomos at Wikipedia wrote:
> I am posting this here (as opposed to sourceforge) since this idea needs
> some discussion, etc.
>
> I often think that viewing the latest version of the page after just
> editing it is not necessary.
>
> When I press "Save" button, all I need is the message that "data is now
> saved," not the whole article/ page.
>
> So it would be nice to have that option in one way or another. It could be
> either a user option or
> two save buttons with the edit box. Or "data is now saved" is the default,
> and there is a link to the
> page just edited. (The last option is similar to the way login proceeds.
> You get a link to the previously visited page after logging in
> successfully.)

I would disagree with this. Oftenly errors are spotted after saving page (even
if preview is used prior to that), and for new users it is interesting and
important that they see what their work looks like.

If this is implemented, I think it should be a separate option of normal
saving, available only if the edit is previewed and not changed after
preview (or if not that, only if the edit is previewed), and only for
registered users.


from_name: Roy Royce

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mr. Royce and SR

body:
>From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at joey.bomis.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Mr. Royce and SR
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:19:05 -0700
>
>Dante Alighieri wrote:
> > Mr. Royce, could you please define what you mean by "real" in the sense
> > that you've used it in your "proof"? You say "real clock rhythm", "real
> > mass", and "real energy", but don't fully define those terms. Perhaps
> > the root of the misunderstanding here is a difference in word usage?
> > Maybe people on the list are missing your fundamental point because
> > they aren't using the same words to mean the same things...
>
>Yes, but please do it elsewhere.  We don't need a discussion of
>physics here.
>
>It doesn't matter a bit whether what Mr. Royce is saying is true or
>not.  The only real question we need to ask is: can we find it in a
>textbook or similar?
>

To repeat, it is written in the well-regarded-by-all-physicists book
_Spacetime Physics_ which was written by the esteemed physicist
John A. Wheeler. (I even gave the exact page number as well as the
words themselves.)

>We don't _do_ physics on wikipedia, we merely report encyclopedically
>on the state of the subject.
>
>--Jimbo
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
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from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-
> bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy Wales
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 3:20 PM
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL
>
> I think the mailing lists are not GFDL.  They are in the same state as
> any normal mailing list anywhere, I guess.  Whatever that is!
>
I think it's a bad idea to set up a Chinese wall between the mailing
list and the rest of Wikipedia, including the Talk pages and Meta.

I strongly suggest that the mailing lists be officially covered by the
GFDL and that an effort be made to have all the participants of the past
officially accept the GFDL for all past posts.


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: AW: [Wikipedia-l] Logo results as tallied pairwise (Condorcet)

body:
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Till Westermayer wrote:

> interesting -- but are you sure you get all the votes? AFAIK, I did vote
> (till we *) or Tillwe), but Inpage-Search didn't find me in your data sheet.

You signed with ==~~~~==. Within =='s, the ~~~~ are not shown as your user
name, so you were judged to have "no username". I have put forward that I
was in favor of counting your vote, but no action was taken.

P.S.: I hereby refuse to consider the vote tallying of the last round of
the logo vote valid, the reason being that kpjas's votes have not been
counted, nor has there been discussion about several other people's votes
(including tillwe's).

Andre Engels


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Server upgrade status needed in order to distribute
	press release

body:
When are the servers going to be upgraded? This is
holding up distribution of the press release (we've
already hit the 300,000 figure) since the downtime
associated with the upgrade is not something we want
to present potential news users or donators to.  It
would also be nice for them to have responsive page
load times. Either way I would still like to delay the
English press release distribution one week after
non-English distribution.

-- mav

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from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikis for News (was: Cooperation with Euobserver)

body:
I've thought quite a bit about Wiki for "news."  My feeling is that
Wikipedia is already journalism, but not news.  The Wiki concept would
not be suitable for news because news requires a deadline, an end, a
static form.  It necessarily has to capture the state of affairs at a
point in time.  That's why mantras in the news business go: "Make air,
not art", "Tomorrow's fishwrap" and "Better never than late [sic]"

Time limits don't serve Wikis well.  Wikis are good for continually
evolving content. An arbitrarily set deadline would drastically change
the nature of edit wars, neutrality disputes, community and evolution.

I would equate it to an eBay auction where bidders having an infinite
amount of money, because we all have an inifinite amount of opinions. :)

-Fuzheado


subject: [WikiEN-l] Mr. Royce and SR

body:
Yes, I know that Mr. Wales ruled that I should not reply (to the list)
in this case, but he should at least allow a brief reply since my proof
had already been posted here.

Here is a quick top-post definition of an "intrinsic property":
A physical property that is not observer-dependent (or does not
vary with an observer's point of view). For example, a clock's
intrinsic rhythm is given by its internal atomic vibrations.

----RR----(end of reply)

>From: Dante Alighieri <dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Mr. Royce and SR
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:17:38 -0700
>
>At 12:01 PM 9/29/2003, you wrote:
>>At this point, although we have not answered our original question
>>about what was physically happening in these three cases, we have
>>answered the question about what was _not_ happening in these cases,
>>which means that we have answered the important question Does SR
>>pertain to physically real (or intrinsic) characteristics? And we
>>have found that the answer to this question is No. This tells us all
>>we need to know in order to prove our main point that SR does not
>>pertain to the equivalence of real mass with real energy (which is
>>of course stated explicitly by the equation E=mc^2).
>>
>>-----RR-----
>
>Mr. Royce, could you please define what you mean by "real" in the sense
>that you've used it in your "proof"? You say "real clock rhythm", "real
>mass", and "real energy", but don't fully define those terms. Perhaps the
>root of the misunderstanding here is a difference in word usage? Maybe
>people on the list are missing your fundamental point because they aren't
>using the same words to mean the same things...
>
>
>-----
>Dante Alighieri
>dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com
>
>"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
>neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
>    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
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subject:
[WikiEN-l] [roy_q_royce@hotmail.com: --A Request RE
	aWIKIArticle--]

body:
>From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] [roy_q_royce at hotmail.com: --A Request RE
>aWIKIArticle--]
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
>
> > Dear Mr. Wales,
> >
> > You've sold us both short! :-) (<--please note
> > smiley, Mr. Poor!) You have assumed that you could > not have anything
>helpful to say about the physics > of this situation, so you have also
>assumed that
> > it cannot be simply explained if one tries hard
> > enough!
> >
[large snip]
> > -----RR-----
>
>Forgive me if I'm being naive, but I thought there
>were no absolute time frames, and if any time frames
>existed, then they must be relative for the reasons of
>special relativity. This would mean that, while if one
>person is comparing his atomic clock to another
>person's clock that's on a space ship they would get
>different results, internally, the clocks have a
>constant rate.
>LDan
>
>PS. This sounds like a typical crackpot theory steming
>from a fundimental misunderstanding of a science. I
>think we should drop this because, even if it is
>correct (which it isn't), it is still not for
>Wikipedia until he gets through the Establisment and
>writes a scientific paper on it.

Regarding your PS, I was not presenting any sort of
theory. (And the fact that you thought I was does not
do wonders for your credibility.)

Regarding your opening paragraph, you seem to be merely
repeating what I said. (Except that I said nothing about
any "absolute time frames.")

-----RR-----

_________________________________________________________________
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body:
> Regarding your PS, I was not presenting any sort of
> theory. (And the fact that you thought I was does
> not
> do wonders for your credibility.)
>
What is it, then, if not a theory? Or is it just that
you're right? Even the proponents of [normal, not
your] relativity say that it's a theory.

> Regarding your opening paragraph, you seem to be
> merely
> repeating what I said. (Except that I said nothing
> about
> any "absolute time frames.")
>
> -----RR-----

You mentioned time frames, which I never heard of
existing, because everything is reletavistic. So I
said that the wouldn't work. And you said that if the
internal rates of different clock differed, than that
would mess something up, but I said that it wouldn't.
You seem to be assuming that the time has to be the
same everywhere and then proving that. You're begging
the question.
LDan

PS. Should this be offlist?

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> How is it collaborative, open or free content to
> allow others to
> ignore the contributions of our co-contributors?
>
> Part of collaboration in an open content context is
> the opportunity to
> discard material that is wrong or not useful.
>
> Fred
>
> http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org

We're not allowed to do that on Wikipedia? I deleted
Cygwin build instructions from the AbiWord article;
should I not have done that?
LDan

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body:
--- Andrew Lih <alih at hku.hk> wrote:
> I've thought quite a bit about Wiki for "news."  My
> feeling is that
> Wikipedia is already journalism, but not news.  The
> Wiki concept would
> not be suitable for news because news requires a
> deadline, an end, a
> static form.  It necessarily has to capture the
> state of affairs at a
> point in time.  That's why mantras in the news
> business go: "Make air,
> not art", "Tomorrow's fishwrap" and "Better never
> than late [sic]"
>
> Time limits don't serve Wikis well.  Wikis are good
> for continually
> evolving content. An arbitrarily set deadline would
> drastically change
> the nature of edit wars, neutrality disputes,
> community and evolution.
>
> I would equate it to an eBay auction where bidders
> having an infinite
> amount of money, because we all have an inifinite
> amount of opinions. :)
>
> -Fuzheado

Well, an encyclopedia typically has the goal of a
static end product too, don't they? And they need to
meet some sort of deadline.
LDan

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from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 14:10, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> Well, an encyclopedia typically has the goal of a
> static end product too, don't they? And they need to
> meet some sort of deadline.

On the contrary, the paper encyclopedias I've seen publish regular
supplements and churn out a whole new edition after some number of
years. It's clearly their goal to stay as up to date as possible.

Deadlines and batched updates are an artifact of the paper publishing
process, which requires a long lead time and relatively large print runs
to be remotely profitable. With online publishing, effectively a new
edition of the encyclopedia is published every 15 seconds (whenever an
article is updated), and visitors to the main web site see this latest
edition unless they decide to look up older editions through the page
history.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] CVS access

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 14:16, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
> Is it possible that I get CVS access?
> I intent to use it only to upload languageFR.php

Okay, you're added to the project.

See the instructions for developers at:
https://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=34373

(not the anonymous, but the stuff below that)

and see other thread on using stable branch...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Intlwiki-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] language-fr

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 07:20, Andre Engels wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > cd /where/i/keep/source/wiki-stable
> > export CVSROOT=blahblahblah
> > cvs -r stable co phase3
>
> Unknown command: `stable'

Grrr.... stupid cvs double command line system. The "-r stable" goes
_after_ the "co", not before it:

export CVS_RSH=ssh
export CVSROOT=":ext:vibber at cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/wikipedia"
cvs co -r stable phase3

Obviously don't use "vibber" if you're not me. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] RE: List Admin's of Wikitech-l

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 14:39, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> Walter made me a list-admin for Wikitech-l which I consider a "serving"
> position - not a "moderating" position.
>
> What would you all like me to do? Is there a spam problem, or any other
> old business to take care of?

Basically it goes like this:

Every once in a while, somebody sends mail to the list from an address
that isn't subscribed. The mailing list sends the admins a mail about it
with a handy link to the list's admin web interface. An admin goes to
the page, signs in, checks if it's a legit mail or a spam, and if it's a
legit mail clicks the button to let it through. If it's spam, 'e clicks
the button to discard it.

And, that's about it. :)

Very occasionally, some setting may need to be tweaked. You'll also get
notices about addresses which are bouncing and whatnot.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Server upgrade status needed in order
	todistributepress release

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 14:57, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> How many hits an hour do we get during primetime?

About 8-11 wiki page hits per second, so ~30000-40000/hr, on
www.wikipedia.org at peak times.

Most of these should be cached pages, but we still have to check the
database to make sure the cache is current.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [roy_q_royce@hotmail.com: --A Request
	RE	aWIKIArticle--]

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>>Regarding your PS, I was not presenting any sort of...
>>
(snip, snip a whole lot of stuff about physics.

>PS. Should this be offlist?
>
Yes.  This is a good place to discuss whether and/or how we should add
articles about non-standard theories in physics.  Discussion of the
contents of those theories belongs elsewhere.

Ec


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Server upgrade status needed in order to
	distributepress release

body:
Mav asked, "When are the servers going to be upgraded?"

To which I say:

Yeah, I just failed to recruit a published author last month, because
response time was so slow that she said, "I think that website is down."

Any way of keeping response time under 10 seconds consistently?

Ed Poor


subject: [Wikitech-l] CVS access

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
> I have commit LanguageFr.php on CVS,
> but I don't know how I must put it on the stable branch.
>
> Can you tell me how, please?

You have to pull a second copy of the source tree using the stable
branch, then you can work within it as normal. (Edit the file, use 'cvs
commit'.)

I just posted some instructions on pulling the stable branch:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-September/006261.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject:
[WikiEN-l] [roy_q_royce@hotmail.com: --A Request RE
	a	WIKIArticle--]

body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>Maybe we should make a section about crackpot theories
>on relativity. After all, there are so many of them
>and their existance is well-known. It wouldn't need to
>name specific points that they are making, only that
>crackpot theories exist. Possibly there could be an
>article on crackpot theories. We don't have to endorce
>them to acknowledge them. (Or do we, under NPOV?)
>
The term "crackpot" should really be avoided, because of the attitude
that it carries.  I prefer "eccentric" as more reflective of the fact
that these ideas are away from the center of physical thought.

A list of these theories is certainly valuable, but there would be room
there ton go into much detail.  I support allowing each of them to have
an article where the proponent has virtually free reign to explain his
ideas.  Opponents of the theories should learn to apply some restraint,
and to note that it will suffice for the purpose of NPOV to make a note
at the end of the article saying something like, "The ideas in this
article are disputed by the mainstream of scientific thought."  The more
outrageous and ridiculous you consider a theory to be, the less you
should say about it.  Engaging in a discussion on the merits of such a
theory gives it an air of credibility that it might never otherwise have
had.

I also think that the criterion of requiring that something has been
previously published is not entirely sound, because that opens up a big
question about what it means to have been published.  So when it comes
to having one article of reasonable length on a subject I would give
these proponents the benefit of the doubt.  Beyond that I would be more
cautious.

If I may make a somewhat irreverent analogy:  A zoo needs to keep its
wild animals in cages where they can be seen.

Some interesting ideas in the history of science and technology have
been forgotten when better more efficient ideas came along, It is
perfectly encyclopedic to record these despite the fact that they mostly
got nowhere.  We have no honest way of determining which of today's
theories will bear future fruit.

As Napoleon is reported to have said when he met Robert Fulton: "What,
Sir? Would you make a ship sail against the wind and currentsby lighting
a bonfireunder her deck? I pray you excuse me. I have no time to listen
to such nonsense."

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Mascot (re)vote

body:
I propose that we have a mascot vote similar to the
logo vote, possibly (but not necessarily) starting
over. The current mascot frontrunner (the centepede)
was voted over the course of six months, but not many
people have voted for any of the mascots the mascots
(at least compared to the logo vote). Many people
voted before the Miwiki project was started and didn't
see how well it would turn out.

We don't need to start all over for the mascots, we
just need to publicize it more to get more entries
and, more importantly, more votes. When voting on
variants for the elected logo, it seems that Mav
vetoed all miwiki variants because the centepede is
winning by 3 votes (or was it for some other reason?).
I don't think that's enough of a margin. I think that
the mascot should be on the logo some way or another.
I think to get more people to vote on the mascot, all
we need to do is publicize it on the main page and set
a deadline. If you don't want a mascot, that's fine,
but then we need to say that we don't want a mascot
and not have this ongoing vote.
LDan

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from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Image of the W

body:
Instead of voting on logos, layout, and centipedes;

I propose we all dig a little deeper, send some dough to the
Wikimedia foundation, and have Jimbo hire a marketing company to give
the W a facelift.

Let's write/edit/refactor articles.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL

body:
Cunc-
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-
>> bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy Wales
>> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 3:20 PM
>> To: English Wikipedia
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikilists and GDFL
>>
>> I think the mailing lists are not GFDL.  They are in the same state as
>> any normal mailing list anywhere, I guess.  Whatever that is!

> I think it's a bad idea to set up a Chinese wall between the mailing
> list and the rest of Wikipedia, including the Talk pages and Meta.

> I strongly suggest that the mailing lists be officially covered by the
> GFDL and that an effort be made to have all the participants of the past
> officially accept the GFDL for all past posts.

Sounds reasonable. I for one agree to put all my past, present and future
posts in the public domain.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>--- Andrew Lih <alih at hku.hk> wrote:
>
>>Time limits don't serve Wikis well.  Wikis are good
>>for continually
>>evolving content. An arbitrarily set deadline would
>>drastically change
>>the nature of edit wars, neutrality disputes,
>>community and evolution.
>>
>>I would equate it to an eBay auction where bidders
>>having an infinite
>>amount of money, because we all have an inifinite
>>amount of opinions. :)
>>
>>-Fuzheado
>>
>
>Well, an encyclopedia typically has the goal of a
>static end product too, don't they? And they need to
>meet some sort of deadline.
>
There is no need for an encyclopedia to be static; we are not paper.
 One of our advantages is our ablity to change our text as events
happen.  A printed or CD version will be static because it can't do
that.  Still it may be the only way to disseminate that knowledge to
some parts of the world's population.

eBay has deadlines because sooner or later a decision has to be made
about the sale of a product.  If everyone had an infinite amount of
money it wouldn't work on eBay.  Infinite bid would be meaningless since
they do nothing to determine the price.  If two bidders made an infinite
bid, one could easily award the lot to the first one to make that bid,
but at what price?  With arbitrarily high (but finite) bids, you would
have a rapidly inflated market since everybody could bid.

Ec

>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logo results as tallied pairwise (Condorcet)

body:
Richard Grevers wrote:

>> Hi Andre,
>>
>> thanks for pointing that out. If this is really the case, I also propose
>> a recount (how should one now that ~~~~ between == don't work?!). (IIRC,
>> I came back from holiday just before the voting period ended and didn't
>> check if my vote was counted)
>
> Well that's three users who were qualified to vote who missed out for
> technical reasons. I signed the same way, but the page never reloaded
> full (the server was down for the next hour or two, and by the time I
> managed to get back to W the next day, voting was done and dusted.
>
> This probably isn't going to affect first place, but may well swap 2nd
> and 3rd.

In all fairness I did complain when I saw that my vote had been
disallowed.  Andre reviewed the issue.

I've since looked at the situation and my vote was reinstated (though
none of the others.  Thanks Erik.

Ray


body:
Walter made me a list-admin for Wikitech-l which I consider a "serving"
position - not a "moderating" position.

What would you all like me to do? Is there a spam problem, or any other
old business to take care of?

Ed Poor


body:
If handling the occasional "unsubscribed e-mail" is the hardest chore,
then *yawn* this ought to be about as easy as my wikien-l admin job.

Ed Poor


body:
Erik, - re: massive fundraising campaign.

Well, I'd be willing to donate a few hundred dollars. Where do I send
it?

I originally applied to become a "Developer" because I hoped I might be
able to do something to speed up the response time. Unfortunately, I
haven't made the effort to wade through all the source code - and last
time I checked, there weren't any Requirements Document or Architectural
Design Document.

I've had quite a bit of experience with client-server programming, and
I've managed to get more speed out of various systems. It's often a
matter of using a profiling tool to identify bottlenecks.

How many hits an hour do we get during primetime?

Ed Poor


references:
<E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280F44B6@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>
	<1064959781.8671.154.camel@frank.vibber.org>
	<oprwcaiqvzzs1r4a@localhost>

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 18:02, Richard Grevers wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:09:41 -0700, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> gave
> utterance to the following:
>
> > On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 14:57, Poor, Edmund W wrote:
> >> How many hits an hour do we get during primetime?
> >
> > About 8-11 wiki page hits per second, so ~30000-40000/hr, on
> > www.wikipedia.org at peak times.
> >
> > Most of these should be cached pages, but we still have to check the
> > database to make sure the cache is current.
> >
> Why? surely in a system of this nature you can simply update the cache as
> the final step of the edit process. Are there circumstances under which
> that is likely to get out of synch? I guess it could be backed up by a
> background synch checker once a day.

Two front-end web servers, each with its own cache.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Profiling

body:
Made some tweaks to the profiling; it can now be set to log only
profiling data (without other debug junk), and to log it only when the
total time spent > X seconds.

Currently logging to /apache/profile/en.profile on larousse. The first
bit will be without any limit; then with 1.0 second limit, then with the
title-parsing code filtered out (always fairly fast, but a lot of them,
it ends up being useless noise), then with a 5.0 second limit.

I noticed also that the user_newtalk table didn't have any index on it,
which may explain why a lot of newtalk check queries were fairly slow. I
added indexes, but they're still sometimes oddly slow.

alter table user_newtalk add key(user_id), add key(user_ip);

Will try to process the data some in a bit...

-- brion vibber (brino @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Profiling

body:
I'm seeing many slow queries on ipblocks as well as on user_newtalk. I
don't think these are genuine, though; these are the first queries
issued by a page load when the user object is being set up, so if the
database as a whole is blocking us, that's where everything will wait.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Profiling

body:
Anybody wanna look into optimizing OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks()?
It's a known troublemaker; it's got a bit loop that could probably be
much much more efficiently done.

Rendering pages with lots and lots of links gets *really* slow.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

20031001020630  0025.562        /wiki/List_of_Japan_related_topics anon
        at 0000.016 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) -  main-misc-setup
        at 0000.017 in 0000.079 ( 0.3%) - *** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan_relate...")
        at 0000.017 in 0000.080 ( 0.3%) - ** LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
        at 0000.097 in 0000.013 ( 0.1%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter,cur_restrictions,cur_touched ...")
        at 0000.112 in 0000.005 ( 0.0%) - *** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
        at 0000.111 in 0000.006 ( 0.0%) - ** LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
        at 0000.117 in 0000.118 ( 0.5%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter,cur_touched FROM cur WHERE cu...")
        at 0000.017 in 0000.218 ( 0.9%) - * Article::getContent
        at 0000.237 in 0003.250 (12.7%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title    FROM cur,links    WHERE cur_id=l_to AND...")
        at 0003.582 in 0000.013 ( 0.0%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT bl_to    FROM brokenlinks    WHERE bl_from='200203'...")
        at 0000.237 in 0003.358 (13.1%) - * LinkCache::preFill
        at 0003.597 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage::removeHTMLtags
        at 0003.598 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage:replaceVariables
        at 0003.634 in 0000.009 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage::doBlockLevels
        at 0003.657 in 0000.111 ( 0.4%) - *** OutputPage::replaceExternalLinks
        at 0003.768 in 0000.006 ( 0.0%) - **** OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks-setup
        at 0003.774 in 0016.715 (65.4%) - **** OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks-loop
        at 0003.768 in 0016.721 (65.4%) - *** OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks
        at 0003.597 in 0016.925 (66.2%) - ** OutputPage::doWikiPass2
        at 0003.595 in 0016.928 (66.2%) - * OutputPage::addWikiText
        at 0000.017 in 0020.506 (80.2%) -  Article::view
        at 0020.523 in 0000.000 ( 0.0%) - * OutputPage::output-headers
        at 0020.524 in 0000.000 ( 0.0%) - ** Skin::initPage
        at 0020.524 in 0000.009 ( 0.0%) - ** Skin::doBeforeContent
        at 0020.524 in 0000.010 ( 0.0%) - * OutputPage::output-middle
        at 0020.534 in 0004.993 (19.5%) - * OutputPage::output-bodytext
        at 0025.531 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - **** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
        at 0025.530 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - *** LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
        at 0025.552 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - ***** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
        at 0025.551 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - **** LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
        at 0025.543 in 0000.019 ( 0.1%) - *** Skin::quickBar
        at 0025.527 in 0000.035 ( 0.1%) - ** Skin::doAfterContent
        at 0025.527 in 0000.035 ( 0.1%) - * OutputPage::output-after
        at 0020.523 in 0005.039 (19.7%) -  OutputPage::output


from_name: Till Westermayer

body:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .

Hi Andre,

thanks for pointing that out. If this is really the case, I also propose
a recount (how should one now that ~~~~ between == don't work?!). (IIRC,
I came back from holiday just before the voting period ended and didn't
check if my vote was counted)

Regards,

Till

>On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Till Westermayer wrote:

>> interesting -- but are you sure you get all the votes? AFAIK, I
>> did vote (till we *) or Tillwe), but Inpage-Search didn't find
>> me in your data sheet.

>You signed with ==~~~~==. Within =='s, the ~~~~ are not shown as
>your user name, so you were judged to have "no username". I have
>put forward that I was in favor of counting your vote, but no
>action was taken.

>P.S.: I hereby refuse to consider the vote tallying of the last
>round of the logo vote valid, the reason being that kpjas's votes
>have not been counted, nor has there been discussion about several
>other people's votes (including tillwe's).

>Andre Engels

>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

 __ .
 / / / /                            ... Till Westermayer - till we *)
. .
  . mailto:till at tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072
  . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179
  . . . . .


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Cooperation with EUobserver

body:
Do we have to guarantee that their work isn't modified?

RickK

Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
Gareth-
> Brion Vibber
writes:

>> Citing your sources is not incompatible with the GFDL!

> No its not, but releasing the sources on the precondition that the work is
> so cited in perpetuity remain most certainly is (unless they're in an
> invariant section) for the same reasons BSDL + advertising clause isn't GPL
> compatible.

The agreement is between Wikipedia and Euobserver, not between Euobserver
and any users of Wikipedia's material. We shall make an honest effort to
have the sources cited, for as long as they point to existing pages.

Regards,

Erik
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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from_name: Arwel Parry

subject: [Wikitech-l] [[en2]] Date handling

body:
I've just realised what's been nagging me when I've been looking at
articles on English Wikipedia recently -- the date format preferences
have disappeared on en2. I don't wish to restart the date format wars
again, but can someone re-enable them pronto, please?

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/


from_name: Adam [name omitted for privacy reasons]

subject: [WikiEN-l] a marketing company (re c mahan)

body:
Although I could not prevent you, I would find it personally abhorrent if you people wasted money hiring some marketing company to "give the wiki a facelift". If you got money to blow, go feed children in third world countries. I think the wiki is pretty enough as it is.

As for a mascot, I think we should pick one of those tripped out deep-sea fish cuz, like them, we are bringing light to dark places.
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Mascot (re)vote

body:
LDan wrote:
>....
>When voting on variants for the elected logo,
>it seems that Mav vetoed all miwiki variants
>because the centepede is winning by 3 votes

Wrong. First I can't veto anything, but I did complain on procedural grounds
(I was the first person to vote for the leaf-cutter ant, BTW). Second, when I
did complain the Wikipede was about 10 votes ahead.

>....
>I think that the mascot should be on the logo
>some way or another.

Logos and mascots are separate things.

>I think to get more people to vote on the mascot,
>all we need to do is publicize it on the main page
>and set a deadline.

And have all this fun again so soon?

I say we choose both the Wikipede and Miwiki as our mascot; Miwiki could
simply be the pet of Wikipede.

-- mav


body:
Richard-
> On 30 Sep 2003 21:23:00 +0200, Till Westermayer <till at tillwe.de> gave
> utterance to the following:

>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
>>
>> Hi Andre,
>>
>> thanks for pointing that out. If this is really the case, I also propose
>> a recount (how should one now that ~~~~ between == don't work?!). (IIRC,
>> I came back from holiday just before the voting period ended and didn't
>> check if my vote was counted)
>>
> Well that's three users who were qualified to vote who missed out for
> technical reasons. I signed the same way, but the page never reloaded full
> (the server was down for the next hour or two, and by the time I managed
> to get back to W the next day, voting was done and dusted.

==~~~~== does work, but there are apparently certain browser/OS
combinations which had problems with the Unicode representation on Meta
and copy and pasted it in a way that doesn't work. To avoid this from
occurring repeatedly I changed the template at some point to just say
==[[User:Foo]]==. In any case, most invalid ballots have been marked as
invalid long before the vote ended, and all invalid ones are listed on
[[International logo vote/Invalid ballots]]. The rules for what type of
ballot is acceptable and what type is not have been made very clear
repeatedly, and, to my knowledge, nobody has voted for Pat Buchanan.

Note that some people refused to accept the first round of voting because
the rules were too lax and cheating was too easy. If some people refuse to
accept the second round of voting because the rules are too strict and
cheating is too difficult, then I think these complaints can be fairly
considered to negate each other.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Poor,-
> Any way of keeping response time under 10 seconds consistently?

Massive fundraising campaign. For which we need responsive servers. If
Jimbo's latest upgrade doesn't help, we can create a Wikipedia blackout --
black pages on all Wikipedias, for all requests, which explain what
Wikipedia is about and ask visitors to keep the project going by making a
donation (if possible, we could add a link at the bottom pointing to a
cached copy of the article they want).

Or we ask ibiblio to host either the English or the non-English Wikipedias
for us as an experiment and see how that works out. If the strategy of
keeping everything in one place doesn't work out, it is very easy with the
current software to decentralize things.

In any case, I strongly recommend not to start a publicity campaign
without highly responsive servers. The press release is going to do you no
good at all if people can't access the site. And the load after the
release will be significantly higher than presently, so we need to have
some wiggle room.

We now need Jimbo's leadership because he's the one in control of the
servers, the foundation and the projects.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Poor,-
> Erik, - re: massive fundraising campaign.

> Well, I'd be willing to donate a few hundred dollars. Where do I send
> it?

See
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Donations

> I originally applied to become a "Developer" because I hoped I might be
> able to do something to speed up the response time. Unfortunately, I
> haven't made the effort to wade through all the source code - and last
> time I checked, there weren't any Requirements Document or Architectural
> Design Document.

Documentation is very weak at this point. There is some stuff being worked
on on Meta. PHP is generally easy to read though.

> I've had quite a bit of experience with client-server programming, and
> I've managed to get more speed out of various systems. It's often a
> matter of using a profiling tool to identify bottlenecks.

That's true. Search the archives for "profiling", Brion has done some work
in this area. You can search the archives here:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=wikitech-l

My intuition would be to optimize/rewrite the link cache, which needs to
be checked for the existence of hundreds of individual pages on long
pages.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Christian List

subject: [Wikitech-l] language-fr

body:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> Everybody -- please make sure your language files are consistent, and
> the current versions are in the ***stable*** branch of CVS.
>

I have put LanguageDa.php in the stable branch today, so could you please
put that online on the danish wiki?

Regards
Christian List


from_name: Luc Van Oostenryck

subject: [Wikitech-l] CVS access

body:
Is it possible that I get CVS access?
I intent to use it only to upload languageFR.php

Thanks.

-- Looxix


from_name: Eric Demolli

subject:
[WikiEN-l] [roy_q_royce@hotmail.com: --A Request RE a
	WIKIArticle--]

body:
No one has yet used two clocks to measure the speed of light (one way).

I'm not a specialist, but there is no need to measure the speed of light as
SI time unit (the second) is defined by reference to the speed of light.


from_name: Chris Seaton

subject: [Wikitech-l] No numbers for single letter headings

body:
I have enabled numbered headings but I think this should be bypassed
when the heading is just a single letter (used quite a lot in
alphabetical lists) as it looks quite strange. See
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases if you have headers
enabled to see what I mean.

Actually, perhaps it would be better to put a colon between the number
and header. "6: F" instead of "6 F", which looks like a school class
name.

Thoughts?

--
Chris Seaton

chris at chrisseaton.com
http://www.chrisseaton.com/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Profiling

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>Anybody wanna look into optimizing OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks()?
>It's a known troublemaker; it's got a bit loop that could probably be
>much much more efficiently done.
>
>Rendering pages with lots and lots of links gets *really* slow.
>
Is there a limit in the number of links that should be on a page?  Some
of these can probably be broken up into several shorter lists.
Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Profiling

body:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 21:59, Jens Frank wrote:
> Can you measure how much time is spent in the Skin::makeLink subroutine
> that's called quite often during the loop?

For these inner functions, the millisecond resolution on the timer often
isn't precise enough.

That page has 2548 links on it; 16.715 seconds in the
replaceInternalLinks loop means about 6.5 milliseconds for each
iteration, which does a number of string operations and regular
expressions and eventually a makeLink. Each iteration does a string
append, too, which is likely not that efficient.

Here's a quick overview of 200,000 lines of profiling data, recorded
only for requests to www.wikipedia.org that took more than 5 seconds.
Note that the actual writing out of page data is generally done in
OutputPage::output; this should be more or less instantaneous, but we
sometimes seem to be blocking on buffer flushes from the next layer up.

Columns are the number of calls, the total wallclock time spent in that
function, and the mean wallclock time per call. Not all functions are
profiled. Per-function time includes the time spent in any functions
called by that function. Some "functions" are portions of functions. The
recorded data span about 5 and a half hours.

  1815    0.1   0.000   Skin::initPage
  1885    1.8   0.001   OutputPage::output-headers
  1630    1.7   0.001   OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks-setup
  1630    3.2   0.002   OutputPage:replaceVariables
  2846   31.3   0.011   main-misc-setup
  1630   37.5   0.023   OutputPage::removeHTMLtags
  1630   42.6   0.026   OutputPage::doBlockLevels
  1803  101.8   0.056   Skin::doBeforeContent
  1885  114.4   0.061   OutputPage::output-middle
 57717  7682.8  0.133   LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
  1630  244.2   0.150   OutputPage::replaceExternalLinks
101261  22135.9 0.219   wfQuery
  1685  449.1   0.267   Skin::quickBar
  1803  737.6   0.409   Skin::doAfterContent
   981  539.3   0.550   LinkCache::preFill
  1885  1313.6  0.697   OutputPage::output-after
  1631  3956.1  2.426   OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks-loop
  1631  3958.3  2.427   OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks
  1631  4412.7  2.706   OutputPage::doWikiPass2
  1990  6140.1  3.085   Article::getContent
  1631  5165.5  3.167   OutputPage::addWikiText
    52  174.4   3.354   Article::history
  1885  8148.9  4.323   OutputPage::output-bodytext
  1885  9579.6  5.082   OutputPage::output
  1102  6530.4  5.926   Article::view

Code optimization efforts should look strongly at
OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks and everything it calls.
Article::getContent would mostly wait on the database to return data, it
doesn't do much processing.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Constans, Camille (C.C.)

subject: [Wikitech-l] Profiling

body:
Just a thing i had seen in a book talking about php speed, just add 'limit
1' in the query, then mysql stop searching at the first result found. There
sould be only one I think.

Hope it helps

example : SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND
cur_title='List_of_Japan_relate...' LIMIT 1

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Brion Vibber [mailto:brion at pobox.com]
Envoy? : mercredi 1 octobre 2003 04:14
? : Wikimedia developers
Objet : Re: [Wikitech-l] Profiling

Anybody wanna look into optimizing OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks()?
It's a known troublemaker; it's got a bit loop that could probably be
much much more efficiently done.

Rendering pages with lots and lots of links gets *really* slow.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

20031001020630  0025.562        /wiki/List_of_Japan_related_topics anon
        at 0000.016 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) -  main-misc-setup
        at 0000.017 in 0000.079 ( 0.3%) - *** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM
cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan_relate...")
        at 0000.017 in 0000.080 ( 0.3%) - **
LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
        at 0000.097 in 0000.013 ( 0.1%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT
cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter,cur_restrictions,cur_touched
...")
        at 0000.112 in 0000.005 ( 0.0%) - *** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM
cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
        at 0000.111 in 0000.006 ( 0.0%) - **
LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
        at 0000.117 in 0000.118 ( 0.5%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT
cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter,cur_touched FROM cur WHERE
cu...")
        at 0000.017 in 0000.218 ( 0.9%) - * Article::getContent
        at 0000.237 in 0003.250 (12.7%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT
cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title    FROM cur,links    WHERE cur_id=l_to
AND...")
        at 0003.582 in 0000.013 ( 0.0%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT bl_to    FROM
brokenlinks    WHERE bl_from='200203'...")
        at 0000.237 in 0003.358 (13.1%) - * LinkCache::preFill
        at 0003.597 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage::removeHTMLtags
        at 0003.598 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage:replaceVariables
        at 0003.634 in 0000.009 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage::doBlockLevels
        at 0003.657 in 0000.111 ( 0.4%) - ***
OutputPage::replaceExternalLinks
        at 0003.768 in 0000.006 ( 0.0%) - ****
OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks-setup
        at 0003.774 in 0016.715 (65.4%) - ****
OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks-loop
        at 0003.768 in 0016.721 (65.4%) - ***
OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks
        at 0003.597 in 0016.925 (66.2%) - ** OutputPage::doWikiPass2
        at 0003.595 in 0016.928 (66.2%) - * OutputPage::addWikiText
        at 0000.017 in 0020.506 (80.2%) -  Article::view
        at 0020.523 in 0000.000 ( 0.0%) - * OutputPage::output-headers
        at 0020.524 in 0000.000 ( 0.0%) - ** Skin::initPage
        at 0020.524 in 0000.009 ( 0.0%) - ** Skin::doBeforeContent
        at 0020.524 in 0000.010 ( 0.0%) - * OutputPage::output-middle
        at 0020.534 in 0004.993 (19.5%) - * OutputPage::output-bodytext
        at 0025.531 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - **** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM
cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
        at 0025.530 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - ***
LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
        at 0025.552 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - ***** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM
cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
        at 0025.551 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - ****
LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
        at 0025.543 in 0000.019 ( 0.1%) - *** Skin::quickBar
        at 0025.527 in 0000.035 ( 0.1%) - ** Skin::doAfterContent
        at 0025.527 in 0000.035 ( 0.1%) - * OutputPage::output-after
        at 0020.523 in 0005.039 (19.7%) -  OutputPage::output

_______________________________________________
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http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] CVS access

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 14:16, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
>
>>Is it possible that I get CVS access?
>>I intent to use it only to upload languageFR.php
>
>
> Okay, you're added to the project.
>
> See the instructions for developers at:
> https://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=34373
>
> (not the anonymous, but the stuff below that)
>
> and see other thread on using stable branch...
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

OK thanks.

I have commit LanguageFr.php on CVS,
but I don't know how I must put it on the stable branch.

Can you tell me how, please?

-- Looxix


list: textbook-l

from_name: Sanford Forte

subject:
[Textbook-l] Fantastic news! MIT's OCW is up and running with
	content.

body:
MIT's OpenCourseWare (OCW) is now up, with the first 500 courses. This is a
wonderful resource that will continue to grow, and make a difference,
worldwide. Our charge now is to do the same on the K-12 side. Let's make it
happen!

http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html

Very Best,
Sanford


subject: [Wikitech-l] CVS access

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, Luc Van Oostenryck wrote:
>
>>I have commit LanguageFr.php on CVS,
>>but I don't know how I must put it on the stable branch.
>>
>>Can you tell me how, please?
>
>
> You have to pull a second copy of the source tree using the stable
> branch, then you can work within it as normal. (Edit the file, use 'cvs
> commit'.)

OK, it's done (my first commit was directly on the stable branch,
I have commited the same file the the unstable branch).

>
> I just posted some instructions on pulling the stable branch:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-September/006261.html

Yes, I have seen it.

Can you put it on the server now.
The modifications mainly consist of more translations
plus a few missing stuff now synchronised with the english version 1.43:
* $wgDefaultUserOptionsFr (same as default)
* $wgLanguageNamesFr (half translated)
* function getDefaultUserOptions (was present on the unstable branch)
* function getLanguageName( was present on the unstable branch)

I just hop I have not done a gross mistake.

Thanks for all.

-- Looxix


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] slow ?

body:
I usually connect myself at night, so perhaps I do not
really realise how horribly things are.

But, being there this afternoon, I wonder.

Is it every day just stuck like this ? I mean, it does
not answer at all anymore.

(and no Mav, it is not me).

Anything else that we can disconnect ? Perhaps
wikipedia could be made read only 12 hours a day, and
write the other twelve. Somehow, read only is better
than nothing.
The english one is still usable. The french is just
dead.

I am sure you are trying your best, but euh, well,
anything else we can do ? A site not working at all
during day hours is just not worth it :-((

Bien emb?t?e

__________________________________
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subject: [Wikitech-l] slow ?

body:
On Wed, 2003-10-01 at 04:42, Anthere wrote:
> I usually connect myself at night, so perhaps I do not
> really realise how horribly things are.
>
> But, being there this afternoon, I wonder.
>
> Is it every day just stuck like this ? I mean, it does
> not answer at all anymore.

Should be a little happier now. We're still getting that memory leak
thing it seems, I've restarted the server again.

I've also temporarily blocked the bot that's been posting year pages to
the German wiki every 30 seconds.

-- brion vibber (brino @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Memcached merge

body:
I've started merging in memcached support for user/newtalk info,
interwiki prefixes, and the UTF-8 conversion tables into the stable
branch. It's not 100% clean and clear, and I may have to adjust the
server config to get it all running, so _don't_ update the files in
/apache/common/php from stable just yet.

Memcached has to be turned on and shared for both www on pliny and en2
on larousse simultaneously or they could get out of sync.

I'll have another go at it when I'm more awake.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikitech-l Slow : pleading

body:
>I've also temporarily blocked the bot that's been
>posting year pages to
>the German wiki every 30 seconds.

Could people ****really**** avoid doing these types of
edits right now ?

What is more important ***right now***?

That real people have a chance to edit a page in more
than 15 minutes or that a bot post year pages ????

Really ?????

What about stopping *all* bots until things are better

PS : Thanks a lot, Brion

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Mascot (re)vote

body:
> From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Mascot (re)vote

> I propose that we have a mascot vote similar to the
> logo vote, possibly (but not necessarily) starting
> over. The current mascot frontrunner (the centepede)
> was voted over the course of six months, but not
> many
> people have voted for any of the mascots the mascots
> (at least compared to the logo vote). Many people
> voted before the Miwiki project was started and
> didn't
> see how well it would turn out.
>
> We don't need to start all over for the mascots, we
> just need to publicize it more to get more entries
> and, more importantly, more votes. When voting on
> variants for the elected logo, it seems that Mav
> vetoed all miwiki variants because the centepede is
> winning by 3 votes (or was it for some other
> reason?).
> I don't think that's enough of a margin. I think
> that
> the mascot should be on the logo some way or
> another.
> I think to get more people to vote on the mascot,
> all
> we need to do is publicize it on the main page and
> set
> a deadline. If you don't want a mascot, that's fine,
> but then we need to say that we don't want a mascot
> and not have this ongoing vote.
> LDan

My feeling over that mail

1. People are really tired of voting right now

2. I think we really have more urgent issues right
now. Actually, the little speed that we could gain
from *not* uploading mascot testing images would be
valuable for some of us.

3. You suggest that the mascot should be included to
the logo, while at the same time ml is buzzing about
complaints of people who already find the logo too
complicated

4. Several people are getting active in trying to find
a way to have a multilingual democracy, and suggest
that for example, discussions are held in several
languages. I can't help putting this in perspective
that very few wikipedias have translated the
instructions for the current vote. Between the first
and the second vote, I had to correct about 10 french
votes, mostly because people who did not understand
how to vote, did not set their meta user page
properly, along the guidelines. And this was an easy
vote. Choice on pictures only. Note though that most
discussions on logos pages were held in english. Not
translated. Any other multilingual votes will really
require more effort of multilingual translations and
discussions.

As Tarquin suggested, we should have had guidelines of
size, weight... If we learn from this, we should do
the same for the mascot
Then all the guidelines must be translated.

What do I see that you propose here ?

A vote suggestion
On an english page
With the suggestion of advertisement on the english
main page
Suggestion made on the english mailing list

Apologies for not being very enthousiastic right now.
Please come back in 3 months Dan :-)

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from_name: Jens Frank

subject: [Wikitech-l] Profiling

body:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 07:13:49PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> Anybody wanna look into optimizing OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks()?
> It's a known troublemaker; it's got a bit loop that could probably be
> much much more efficiently done.
>
> Rendering pages with lots and lots of links gets *really* slow.

Can you measure how much time is spent in the Skin::makeLink subroutine
that's called quite often during the loop?

	Regards,

		JeLuF

> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> 20031001020630  0025.562        /wiki/List_of_Japan_related_topics anon
>         at 0000.016 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) -  main-misc-setup
>         at 0000.017 in 0000.079 ( 0.3%) - *** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan_relate...")
>         at 0000.017 in 0000.080 ( 0.3%) - ** LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
>         at 0000.097 in 0000.013 ( 0.1%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter,cur_restrictions,cur_touched ...")
>         at 0000.112 in 0000.005 ( 0.0%) - *** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=0 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
>         at 0000.111 in 0000.006 ( 0.0%) - ** LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
>         at 0000.117 in 0000.118 ( 0.5%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT cur_text,cur_timestamp,cur_user,cur_counter,cur_touched FROM cur WHERE cu...")
>         at 0000.017 in 0000.218 ( 0.9%) - * Article::getContent
>         at 0000.237 in 0003.250 (12.7%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title    FROM cur,links    WHERE cur_id=l_to AND...")
>         at 0003.582 in 0000.013 ( 0.0%) - ** wfQuery("SELECT bl_to    FROM brokenlinks    WHERE bl_from='200203'...")
>         at 0000.237 in 0003.358 (13.1%) - * LinkCache::preFill
>         at 0003.597 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage::removeHTMLtags
>         at 0003.598 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage:replaceVariables
>         at 0003.634 in 0000.009 ( 0.0%) - *** OutputPage::doBlockLevels
>         at 0003.657 in 0000.111 ( 0.4%) - *** OutputPage::replaceExternalLinks
>         at 0003.768 in 0000.006 ( 0.0%) - **** OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks-setup
>         at 0003.774 in 0016.715 (65.4%) - **** OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks-loop
>         at 0003.768 in 0016.721 (65.4%) - *** OutputPage::replaceInternalLinks
>         at 0003.597 in 0016.925 (66.2%) - ** OutputPage::doWikiPass2
>         at 0003.595 in 0016.928 (66.2%) - * OutputPage::addWikiText
>         at 0000.017 in 0020.506 (80.2%) -  Article::view
>         at 0020.523 in 0000.000 ( 0.0%) - * OutputPage::output-headers
>         at 0020.524 in 0000.000 ( 0.0%) - ** Skin::initPage
>         at 0020.524 in 0000.009 ( 0.0%) - ** Skin::doBeforeContent
>         at 0020.524 in 0000.010 ( 0.0%) - * OutputPage::output-middle
>         at 0020.534 in 0004.993 (19.5%) - * OutputPage::output-bodytext
>         at 0025.531 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - **** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
>         at 0025.530 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - *** LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
>         at 0025.552 in 0000.001 ( 0.0%) - ***** wfQuery("SELECT cur_id FROM cur WHERE cur_namespace=1 AND cur_title='List_of_Japan-relate...")
>         at 0025.551 in 0000.002 ( 0.0%) - **** LinkCache::addLink-checkdatabase
>         at 0025.543 in 0000.019 ( 0.1%) - *** Skin::quickBar
>         at 0025.527 in 0000.035 ( 0.1%) - ** Skin::doAfterContent
>         at 0025.527 in 0000.035 ( 0.1%) - * OutputPage::output-after
>         at 0020.523 in 0005.039 (19.7%) -  OutputPage::output
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikitech-l Slow

body:
Actually, it is just plain non workable :-(

I suppose night work stays the only option :-(

__________________________________
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subject: [Wikitech-l] slow ?

body:
It's usual for a week. Some wikipedians are left.....
I don't think read only will change something. We have much more reading than writing.

to Anthere: C'est d?courageant......

>-----Message d'origine-----
>De : Anthere [mailto:anthere6 at yahoo.com]
>Envoy? : mercredi 1 octobre 2003 13:43
>? : wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
>Objet : [Wikitech-l] slow ?
>
>
>I usually connect myself at night, so perhaps I do not
>really realise how horribly things are.
>
>But, being there this afternoon, I wonder.
>
>Is it every day just stuck like this ? I mean, it does
>not answer at all anymore.
>
>(and no Mav, it is not me).
>
>Anything else that we can disconnect ? Perhaps
>wikipedia could be made read only 12 hours a day, and
>write the other twelve. Somehow, read only is better
>than nothing.
>The english one is still usable. The french is just
>dead.
>
>I am sure you are trying your best, but euh, well,
>anything else we can do ? A site not working at all
>during day hours is just not worth it :-((
>
>Bien emb?t?e
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
>http://shopping.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Richard Grevers

body:
On 30 Sep 2003 21:23:00 +0200, Till Westermayer <till at tillwe.de> gave
utterance to the following:

> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
>
> Hi Andre,
>
> thanks for pointing that out. If this is really the case, I also propose
> a recount (how should one now that ~~~~ between == don't work?!). (IIRC,
> I came back from holiday just before the voting period ended and didn't
> check if my vote was counted)
>
Well that's three users who were qualified to vote who missed out for
technical reasons. I signed the same way, but the page never reloaded full
(the server was down for the next hour or two, and by the time I managed
to get back to W the next day, voting was done and dusted.

This probably isn't going to affect first place, but may well swap 2nd and
3rd.

--
Richard Grevers
Between two evils always pick the one you haven't tried