subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistats for all Wikimedia projects

body:
--- Erik Zachte <e.p.zachte at chello.nl> wrote:
> Wikistats are now available for all Wikimedia projects.
>
> Stats have been generated from the latest dumps, which are from March 9.
>
> Wikipedias
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wiktionaries (use refresh button when you see old stats)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wikiquotes
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikiquote/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wikibooks
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikibooks/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wikinews
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikinews/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wikispecial: wikisource/meta/sep11/species/commons/foundation
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikispecial/EN/Sitemap.htm

Cool. But why is everything at en.wikipedia.org? Wikimedia.org would make a
great deal more sense.

-- mav

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Daniel Mayer


list: wikien-l

from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Database errors on watchlist?

body:
I'm pretty sure my watchlist is under 500 articles, but I got too many
errors in that as well recently. Funnily enough "my contributions"
works fine.

--MacGyverMagic

On Apr 2, 2005 12:12 AM, Kevin Rector <krector at compco.com> wrote:
> Yeah, my 107 item watchlist comes back lickity split.
>
> -Kevin Rector
>
> > FWIW, it's not a universal problem (in case anyone had any doubts). my
> > small 600+ item watchlist works fine.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Classified information in Wikipedia

body:
> >And how would you respond to someone publishing on Wikipedia the name
> >of you 12 year old daughter, what she looks like, where she goes to
> >school and when she leaves, and where you work and when you get home
> >from, and the names of several of your trusted neighbors?
> >
> How do you get from the issue of state secrets to invasion of privacy?
> The activities of Matt's hypothetical daughter are not on-topic to
> anything.  How can she possibly be involved with the cloak of national
> security?
>
> Ec
Revealing personal info on someone's family isn't allowed under
wikipedia law. It can put them in danger. ~~~~


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Richard Holton (richholton at gmail.com) [050402 00:06]:

> And how would you respond to someone publishing on Wikipedia the name
> of you 12 year old daughter, what she looks like, where she goes to
> school and when she leaves, and where you work and when you get home
> from, and the names of several of your trusted neighbors?

I'd be asking her some rather pointed questions about how all that
information ended up in a listed and verifiable reference source. And you
forgot to mention autofellatio.jpg.

- d.


from_name: John Robinson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 21, Issue 11

body:
I'm still subscribed to the list, but don't read much besides the
headers these days.

Lately most of them have been about "April Fools' Day".

To hell with "April Fools' Day." Seriously.

If you don't want to be serious, then I don't know what to tell you.

Do you want an encyclopedia, or a bunch of sophomoric bullshit?

Because, from what I can tell, every time I look at the Recent Changes
page, it's filling up with sophomoric bullshit.

-Hephaestos


subject: [WikiEN-l] Deletion vs discouragement (was Artwork samples)

body:
Sean Barrett (sean at epoptic.org) [050402 02:18]:

> Most importantly, if I persuade Laura to give away some of her late
> husband's work, will her generosity be welcomed to Wikipedia, or will it
> be promptly nominated for deletion as non-encyclopedic
> Wikipedia-is-not-a-gallery Hugo-winning-art-cruft?

This is a problem. VFD is Wikipedia's immune system, but it's beginning to
discourage people from actually writing stuff.

I would also like to call people's attention to an arbitration case in
progress concerning VFD submissions. Comments on the relevant talk pages
are probably in order.

- d.


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please let it be over...

body:
> Is it over yet?
>
> Yikes... my two favorite sites, Wikipedia and Slashdot, were totally
> worthless today due to an overexuberant excess of April Fool merriment.

Maybe I didn't do enough RC patrol today, but are you sure?  WP seemed
pretty normal to me.  Everybody I showed the toilet roll holder article to
loved it.  My wife finally twigged around about Stonehenge.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: April Fool's Day

body:
Charles Matthews (charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com) [050402 02:39]:
> Anthere wrote

> >And I would dare to say : is the over reaction a sign that the current
> >project has become too "restricting" in editors freedom that they feel
> >they need to get so wild the one day this is permitted ?

> Yep.  Most days of the year WP is in serious mode.  And it works - we are
> now in the top 100 websites at Alexa, overtaking Ask Jeeves last time I
> looked.  We need a 'festival'.

Obviously as an ACADEMIC and therefore POMPOUS you are trying to SABOTAGE
THE CREDIBILITY of Wikipedia for your own EEEVIL ENDS. Bloody
mathematicians. WE KNOOOW WHAT YOU PEOPLE THINK IS FUNNY.

- d.


body:
Fred Bauder (fredbaud at ctelco.net) [050402 03:03]:
> From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>

> > duress code

> Made me look

Assume good faith. Think of it as suggesting you write ;-)

- d.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Erik Zachte

body:
Wikistats are now available for all Wikimedia projects.

Stats have been generated from the latest dumps, which are from March 9.

Wikipedias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wiktionaries (use refresh button when you see old stats)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wikiquotes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikiquote/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wikibooks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikibooks/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wikinews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikinews/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wikispecial: wikisource/meta/sep11/species/commons/foundation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikispecial/EN/Sitemap.htm

Sj wrote:
> If there were a machine dedicated to stats of various kinds,
> with its own mirror of the db, could this be done more efficiently
> as a running-total, updated whenever the db was updated?

A dedicated mirrored server for these and other background jobs (e.g. IBM
history flow charts and Special Pages) would certainly help. Switching away
from processing dumps towards direct SQL access has been suggested before.
Especially with the upcoming database scheme change, dumps become more
difficult to handle, though not impossible.

I had my doubts about switching, because very heavy 'Special:' SQL queries
have been often disabled or cancelled halfway to bring down server load, and
the stats queries will be very heavy indeed.

A separate server would make this less of an issue. Average CPU speed will
do fine, memory no less than 1Gb, preferably 2GB. Even though I took great
care to keep memory requirements at an acceptable level, some hash tables
need to be in memory and their sizes grow like everything else around here.

I hope you don't mean running-total literally, where all figures change
every second :)
At least it should be possible to generate new stats once or twice a week,
instead of once a month (the latter depending on how often dumps are
generated).

Erik Zachte


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikistats for all Wikimedia projects


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikistats for all WikiMedia projects

body:
Wikistats are now available for all Wikimedia projects.

Stats have been generated from the latest dumps, which are from March 9.

Wikipedias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wiktionaries (use refresh button when you see old stats)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wikiquotes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikiquote/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wikibooks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikibooks/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wikinews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikinews/EN/Sitemap.htm

Wikispecial: wikisource/meta/sep11/species/commons/foundation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikispecial/EN/Sitemap.htm

For further discussion see
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-April/002762.html

Erik Zachte


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: April Fool's Day

body:
Charles Matthews (charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com) [050402 04:55]:
> David Gerard

> >WE KNOOOW WHAT YOU PEOPLE THINK IS FUNNY.

> Hand the man the GREEN INK.

Of course, this copy of mutt is set up to display the first level of
quoting in green, i.e. what I wrote.

- d.


from_name: Anthere

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: In a massive, and often anonymous context,
 how do we know each other?

body:
Actually, no, really no

Here is what I see on the main page of russian wikipedia

???????? ?? ????????? ? ????????? ????????????.
?? ?????? ??????
???? | ?????? ? ?????????

????????? ? ????????? ???????????? ????????????. ?????, ? ??
????????????? ???????, ??????????? ? ??????? 2002 ????, ??????????
?????? ?????????? 14528. ? ?????? ??? ?????????? ???????????? ???
????????: ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ???
??????? ?????.

Here is what I get after translation

???????? ?? ????????? ? ????????? ????????????.
?? ?????? ??????
???? | ?????? ? ?????????

????????? ? ????????? ???????????? ????????????. ?????, ? ??
????????????? ???????, ??????????? ? ??????? 2002 ????, ??????????
?????? ?????????? 14528. ? ?????? ??? ?????????? ???????????? ???
????????: ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ???
??????? ?????.

Well I do not know what *you* see, but *I* see only ???.

The finnish link should work though ;-)

ant

Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> You can Google translate Japanese and Chinese :)
>
> I also recommend http://translate.ru for Russian,
> http://www.uco.com.ua/translate for Ukrainian,
> http://www.internostrum.com/ for Catalan (it translates Catalan ->
> Spanish, so you will need to use another MT too),
> https://websmart.kielikone.fi/eng/kirjaudu.asp for Finnish,
> http://presis.amebis.si/prevajanje/index.asp for Slovene,
> http://www.poltran.com/ for Polish,
> http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html
> for Greek, and actually for most of the languages Google supports I
> recommend http://www.reverso.net/ instead (although Reverso has a
> limit of 200 characters for plain text translation).
>
> Mark
>
> On Apr 1, 2005 10:54 AM, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Joseph Reagle a ?crit:
>>
>>>On Friday 01 April 2005 00:19, Anthere wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>At least for me, I come to know the others in watching what they say and
>>>>do. When I notice someone put a wise or funny or creative comment a
>>>>couple of times in a row, I go to his user page. I try to decipher the
>>>>person a little bit. Then I go to his contributors list. Try again to
>>>>see what could make him tick. Then I store the information somewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>So you keep a "log" of people you've encountered? I've started this myself
>>>actually...
>>
>>I keep a log of people in my head.
>>The only problem is that I can only easily "observe" people in languages
>>I understand. Or at least those I can google translate. It is much
>>harder with say... russians, japanese, chinese...
>>
>>Those are actually less involved in the international community than for
>>example the french, the germans or the dutch. Very unfortunately.
>>
>>I know not how other people do; but I know most editors like to be in a
>>homy environnement, and just stick to their project. Their project can
>>be a certain wikipedia, or development, or precisely international issues.
>>
>>In the end, most editors reconstruct a little community united by a
>>common goal. You just need some bridging people to insure flows
>>circulate between the little community patches. When an editor belongs
>>to two patches, you get a point :-) Ultimately, there is just a tightly
>>network of little communities, and even if one can't know everyone, one
>>can feel at home :-)
>>
>>Ant
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: April Fool's Day

body:
Ray Saintonge a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Rick a ?crit:
>>
>>> OK, it's out of control now.  Changing all of the edit
>>> button titles and making people think they have new
>>> messages when they don't are just confusing people. And now people
>>> are changing the counts of articles on
>>> minor language Wikipedias.  We're getting lots of
>>> people totally confused and thinking that we've been
>>> hacked, and I'm worried that we're not going to be
>>> able to put things back to the way they were.
>>
>>
>> One thing I am noticing is...
>>
>> This is the first year we see such an explosion of april fool jokes.
>> The article I saw this morning just a paragraph
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bad_jokes_and_other_deleted_nonsense/Wikipedia:April_1%2C_2005/2005_Britannica_takeover_of_Wikimedia)
>> has become a huge pile of .... euh, how to call this ?
>>
>> I think such days are precisely meant for people to relieve their
>> daily stress; just as Cesar organised circus games to have people
>> forget how tough their lives where. And I would dare to say : is the
>> over reaction a sign that the current project has become too
>> "restricting" in editors freedom that they feel they need to get so
>> wild the one day this is permitted ?
>>
>>> Page move vandalism is vandalism, I don't care what
>>> you call it.
>>>
>>> And some "apparent" vandal changed the Main Page to
>>> say that Terri Schiavo died from autofellatio.  How do
>>> we tell them not to vandalize Wikipedia if everybody
>>> else is doing it, too?
>>
>>
>> ROFLLLLLL
>
>
> What some people don't seem to realize is that making a fuss over
> something like April Fools articles only encourages more of them.
> Instead of a handful of subtle hoaxes that harmlessly fool the brightest
> among us we end up with a stream of endless silliness and
> auto-felching.  Humour is in a sad shape when people have to be told
> that what they just heard is an obvious joke.
>
> Of course there are facts that are stranger than humour.  Alarmed by the
> length of the list of people waiting for srgery, our provincial is
> taking steps to reduce these lists by removing names that don't belong
> there.  This includes women who have been waiting more than a year for a
> Caesarean delivery.
>
> E
> c

errrr, that is no joke...

:-)


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Muke Tever

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wikistats for Wiktionary

body:
Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
> I?don't understand why there are important differences for the numbers of
> articles for some Wiktionaries with the manual count (from
> Special:Statistics) at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/TablesArticlesTotal.htm :
> * 323 vs.?209 for Esperanto (eo)
> * 301 vs.?83 for Serbian (sr)

Maybe the stats counter does not count an article whose links are all in
templates as having a link in the article itself?

Or maybe it's just that it's using a slightly outdated version of the
database -- it's dated March 9.

> There are also curious figures for database size
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/TablesDatabaseSize.htm
>
> 3.4 M?for Esperanto (eo) for 323/209 articles

Several large index pages, such as
http://eo.wiktionary.org/wiki/Vortaro_Germana-Esperanta_d

> 32 M for Interlingua (ia) for 253 articles

Interlingua has a lot of index pages, also.

> 1.1 M?for Slovak (sk) for 21 articles

That *is* odd.
http://sk.wiktionary.org/wiki/?peci?lne:Longpages
lists a lot of 10 and 20K pages, and the article for "Wiki" is
purportedly almost 70K long.

Apparently it was a target for Chinese spam:
http://sk.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Wiki&oldid=1725

> 14 M?for Basque (eu) for 60 articles

eu: also has similar indices to ia:, and seems to have been chosen as the
new host for the Romanica material.

	*Muke!
--
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wikistats for all Wikimedia projects

body:
Erik... i took the liberty to report all your wikistats information on
the Quarto. Thanks a lot.

Anthere

Erik Zachte a ?crit:
> Wikistats are now available for all Wikimedia projects.
>
> Stats have been generated from the latest dumps, which are from March 9.
>
> Wikipedias
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wiktionaries (use refresh button when you see old stats)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wikiquotes
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikiquote/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wikibooks
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikibooks/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wikinews
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikinews/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Wikispecial: wikisource/meta/sep11/species/commons/foundation
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wikispecial/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
>
> Sj wrote:
>
>>If there were a machine dedicated to stats of various kinds,
>>with its own mirror of the db, could this be done more efficiently
>>as a running-total, updated whenever the db was updated?
>
>
> A dedicated mirrored server for these and other background jobs (e.g. IBM
> history flow charts and Special Pages) would certainly help. Switching away
> from processing dumps towards direct SQL access has been suggested before.
> Especially with the upcoming database scheme change, dumps become more
> difficult to handle, though not impossible.
>
> I had my doubts about switching, because very heavy 'Special:' SQL queries
> have been often disabled or cancelled halfway to bring down server load, and
> the stats queries will be very heavy indeed.
>
> A separate server would make this less of an issue. Average CPU speed will
> do fine, memory no less than 1Gb, preferably 2GB. Even though I took great
> care to keep memory requirements at an acceptable level, some hash tables
> need to be in memory and their sizes grow like everything else around here.
>
> I hope you don't mean running-total literally, where all figures change
> every second :)
> At least it should be possible to generate new stats once or twice a week,
> instead of once a month (the latter depending on how often dumps are
> generated).
>
> Erik Zachte


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for separate English Wikipedias

body:
Hoi,
I think that the best reason to deny this one is because of the problems
we have with NPOV issues given that the gbush speak a dialect of the
Partisan double speak family, a language that also is lacking in an ISO
639 code though in the ISO 639-5 there is a suggestion to use gwb.
Having a Wikimedia project in this language is problematic as the
pronunciations are so diverse given that the speakers of gwb often
suffer from a forked tongue, a handicap that resulted  in  no fixed
spelling and often in misunderstanding. There is a seasonality in the
quality of pronunciations, particularly around something called
"heylecsssiozzz" it is virtually impossible to pin down what is said.
One word often heard during the hight of this season is "PRooomissssezz"

So, untill this subject has been studied to death, it is better to leave
this one alone; we do not do original research.
Thanks,
    GerardM

Mark Williamson wrote:

>I wasn't aware speakers of that variety were literate.
>
>Mark
>
>On Apr 1, 2005 2:30 PM, Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Sounds good to me, but what about en-us-gbush?
>>
>>On 1 Apr 2005, at 10:21 pm, Mark Williamson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello all,
>>>
>>>I would like to request the creation of en-us-jwales: and en-us-node:
>>>for the two separate varieties of American English known as "Jimbwian"
>>>and "Nodelish".
>>>
>>>Although they are very similar, there are some important differences.
>>>
>>>Some examples:
>>>
>>>Jimbwian: "My name is Jimbo Wales."
>>>Nodelish: "My name is not Jimbo Wales."
>>>
>>>Jimbwian: "I am the founder of Wikipedia."
>>>Nodelish: "I am not the founder of Wikipedia."
>>>
>>>Jimbwian: "I am married and have a daughter."
>>>Nodelish: "I am a single teenager."
>>>
>>>Unfortunately there is no 1-to-1 correspondence between Jimbwian and
>>>Nodelish, so machine translation is impossible.
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: April 1st 2006, IRC, the mailing list,
	and the Cabal

body:
--- Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
> take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
> it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of anonymous
> users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the next day.

Good idea. It would prevent a great deal of nonsense and give people a break.

-- mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


body:
OS9.1

It is not necessary to repeat me again I am a dinosaur, I know.
All I meant to say initially is that it is tough to discuss with people
of some languages when you just do not see anything written.
Equally painful is to have different accounts on about 50 different
projects and having to log in most of the time.

Ant

Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> What OS are you using? It should be a simple problem of fonts if you
> are using Windows XP or MacOS X or most recent free operating
> systems...
>
> Mark
>
> On Apr 1, 2005 10:20 PM, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Actually, no, really no
>>
>>Here is what I see on the main page of russian wikipedia
>>
>>???????? ?? ????????? ? ????????? ????????????.
>>?? ?????? ??????
>>???? | ?????? ? ?????????
>>
>>????????? ? ????????? ???????????? ????????????. ?????, ? ??
>>????????????? ???????, ??????????? ? ??????? 2002 ????, ??????????
>>?????? ?????????? 14528. ? ?????? ??? ?????????? ???????????? ???
>>????????: ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ???
>>??????? ?????.
>>
>>Here is what I get after translation
>>
>>???????? ?? ????????? ? ????????? ????????????.
>>?? ?????? ??????
>>???? | ?????? ? ?????????
>>
>>????????? ? ????????? ???????????? ????????????. ?????, ? ??
>>????????????? ???????, ??????????? ? ??????? 2002 ????, ??????????
>>?????? ?????????? 14528. ? ?????? ??? ?????????? ???????????? ???
>>????????: ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ???
>>??????? ?????.
>>
>>Well I do not know what *you* see, but *I* see only ???.
>>
>>The finnish link should work though ;-)
>>
>>ant
>>
>>Mark Williamson a ?crit:
>>
>>>You can Google translate Japanese and Chinese :)
>>>
>>>I also recommend http://translate.ru for Russian,
>>>http://www.uco.com.ua/translate for Ukrainian,
>>>http://www.internostrum.com/ for Catalan (it translates Catalan ->
>>>Spanish, so you will need to use another MT too),
>>>https://websmart.kielikone.fi/eng/kirjaudu.asp for Finnish,
>>>http://presis.amebis.si/prevajanje/index.asp for Slovene,
>>>http://www.poltran.com/ for Polish,
>>>http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html
>>>for Greek, and actually for most of the languages Google supports I
>>>recommend http://www.reverso.net/ instead (although Reverso has a
>>>limit of 200 characters for plain text translation).
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>On Apr 1, 2005 10:54 AM, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Joseph Reagle a ?crit:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Friday 01 April 2005 00:19, Anthere wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>At least for me, I come to know the others in watching what they say and
>>>>>>do. When I notice someone put a wise or funny or creative comment a
>>>>>>couple of times in a row, I go to his user page. I try to decipher the
>>>>>>person a little bit. Then I go to his contributors list. Try again to
>>>>>>see what could make him tick. Then I store the information somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>So you keep a "log" of people you've encountered? I've started this myself
>>>>>actually...
>>>>
>>>>I keep a log of people in my head.
>>>>The only problem is that I can only easily "observe" people in languages
>>>>I understand. Or at least those I can google translate. It is much
>>>>harder with say... russians, japanese, chinese...
>>>>
>>>>Those are actually less involved in the international community than for
>>>>example the french, the germans or the dutch. Very unfortunately.
>>>>
>>>>I know not how other people do; but I know most editors like to be in a
>>>>homy environnement, and just stick to their project. Their project can
>>>>be a certain wikipedia, or development, or precisely international issues.
>>>>
>>>>In the end, most editors reconstruct a little community united by a
>>>>common goal. You just need some bridging people to insure flows
>>>>circulate between the little community patches. When an editor belongs
>>>>to two patches, you get a point :-) Ultimately, there is just a tightly
>>>>network of little communities, and even if one can't know everyone, one
>>>>can feel at home :-)
>>>>
>>>>Ant
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
>


subject: [Foundation-l] how you can help

body:
Wikimedia projects keep on growing and many projects are starting aside
from the normal encyclopedia projects. Sometimes you find yourself in
need of help. For fight against vandalism, translation, promotion of
your projects and anything related to the project.

You can request for help on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/We_need_your_help

-----

But even better, if YOU want to help, you can get informed on which
ongoing projects might need you.

Please read this  page from time to time and consider how you could join
and help.

For example, right now, help is welcome for
* Quarto (publication of information)
* Wikimania (big international meeting next summer)
* Wikijunior (publication for kids, for which we received a grant)
* ScanBot (a bot for featured article)

Please come and help

Anthere


subject: [Foundation-l] how you can help


from_name: El C

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: April Fool's Day

body:
I intially (& dyslexically) read that as Jumbo Wales! Heh, I'm out of
it, sorry.

Yours always,

[[Exploading Whale]]

>Next year, perhaps crushing by Jumbo Whales (exploding or not).

>Charles


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: April Fool's Day Lame-O-Rama

body:
There should not be a need for policy for such courteousness -- it
sets a very bad precedence when, inter-editorially, a piece is taken
from a user space despite protest.

That's just not right, and the GFDL be damned. If one of the Wikipedia
clones somehow finds such an item and decides to copy it, that's one
thing, but for this to happen from within the community is, in my
opinion, rather shameful.

And it should be opposed, but not through policy, we should'nt need to
resort to that; maybe for vandals and lamers, but serious editors? No,
I refuse to accept that.

Respect for the privacy of the user space is paramount as an outlet
for stressful editorial volunteering, and it's basic human decency.
Decent individual treatment = a productive, caring community of
editors = a free encyclopedia. No shortcuts, not even for a laugh.

El_C

>In this particular case, Bishonen's nihilartikel may be GFDL, but she did
>ask nicely for it not to be used in certain ways. So it then becomes a
>consideration of reasonableness and politeness rather than copyright and
>policy.

>- d.


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi Erik,

Thanks for your stats.
As always, great work!

Le Saturday 2 April 2005 03:37, Erik Zachte a ?crit :
> Wikistats are now available for all Wikimedia projects.
>
> Stats have been generated from the latest dumps, which are from March 9.
>
> Wiktionaries (use refresh button when you see old stats)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/Sitemap.htm
>
> Erik Zachte

I?don't understand why there are important differences for the numbers of
articles for some Wiktionaries with the manual count (from
Special:Statistics) at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/TablesArticlesTotal.htm :
* 323 vs.?209 for Esperanto (eo)
* 301 vs.?83 for Serbian (sr)

There are also curious figures for database size
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/wiktionary/EN/TablesDatabaseSize.htm

3.4 M?for Esperanto (eo) for 323/209 articles
32 M for Interlingua (ia) for 253 articles
1.1 M?for Slovak (sk) for 21 articles
14 M?for Basque (eu) for 60 articles

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please let it be over...

body:
Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> Maybe I didn't do enough RC patrol today, but are you sure?  WP seemed
> pretty normal to me.

There was definitely more going on the last 36 hours. Obvious
vandalism, is easy to detect and rollback, but were coming at a
quicker rate. An anecdote and some stats:

Block log - Perhaps the best informal "vandal meter" we have, here are
some quick numbers from the last week, and a partial April 1 for the
list of blocked IPs and names. There is definitely a spike.

blocks-0322 4
blocks-0323 4
blocks-0324 7
blocks-0325 15
blocks-0326 14
blocks-0327 9
blocks-0328 15
blocks-0329 21
blocks-0330 6
blocks-0331 40
blocks-0401 62 (as of 21:30 EST)

Subtle edits - These were harder to detect, because some folks would
take April Fools jokes from other sites, and try to insert them into
Wikipedia. For example: someone tried to insert the extinct butterfly.
:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Butterfly&diff=prev&oldid=11763319
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biology&diff=prev&oldid=11769616
I reverted only because I happened to be reading the list of hoaxes a
few minutes before. Also, I noticed a few hoax sites actually point to
Wikipedia pages, perhaps bringing more pranksters here.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On Apr 2, 2005 9:35 AM, Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> > Is it over yet?
> >
> > Yikes... my two favorite sites, Wikipedia and Slashdot, were totally
> > worthless today due to an overexuberant excess of April Fool merriment.
>
> Maybe I didn't do enough RC patrol today, but are you sure?  WP seemed
> pretty normal to me.  Everybody I showed the toilet roll holder article to
> loved it.  My wife finally twigged around about Stonehenge.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Rick

body:
I get a database error very frequently when trying to
review article histories.  I have to keep trying over
and over again before the history shows up.

RickK

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Database backup

body:
The last database dump on download.wikimedia.org is from March 9th, almost
one month ago.

Is it correct therefore that we have no backup for data written after that
day? Or is there some other backup strategy at the colo?

Alfio


from_name: Bryan Derksen

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>--- Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
>
>
>>Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
>>take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
>>it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of anonymous
>>users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the next day.
>>
>>
>
>Good idea. It would prevent a great deal of nonsense and give people a break.
>
>
We'll have to make sure to put the "joke" articles up just beforehand,
then. :)


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Please let it be over...

body:
Andrew Lih wrote:

>Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Maybe I didn't do enough RC patrol today, but are you sure?  WP seemed
>>pretty normal to me.
>>
>>
>There was definitely more going on the last 36 hours. Obvious
>vandalism, is easy to detect and rollback, but were coming at a
>quicker rate. An anecdote and some stats:
>
>Block log - Perhaps the best informal "vandal meter" we have, here are
>some quick numbers from the last week, and a partial April 1 for the
>list of blocked IPs and names. There is definitely a spike.
>
>blocks-0322 4
>blocks-0323 4
>blocks-0324 7
>blocks-0325 15
>blocks-0326 14
>blocks-0327 9
>blocks-0328 15
>blocks-0329 21
>blocks-0330 6
>blocks-0331 40
>blocks-0401 62 (as of 21:30 EST)
>
>
If my attempt to reconstruct these statistics is correct, they were
taken from [[Special:Ipblocklist]] and not [[Special:Log/block]]. As a
result, they are highly misleading with respect to the number of blocks
performed on particular days.

[[Special:Ipblocklist]] contains a list of currently active blocks. Most
blocks for vandalism are only for 24 hours, sometimes longer for repeat
offenders. This means that the contents of [[Special:Ipblocklist]] will
be weighted heavily toward the most recent days, except for periods
where there is a surge of permanent blocks (e.g., a problem user
engaging in serial sockpuppetry, or a proxy-blocking binge).
Furthermore, [[Special:Ipblocklist]] also contains the autoblocks
triggered for IPs when a blocked user tries to edit, and these are
always for 24-hour periods.

On the other hand, [[Special:Log/block]] is the full log of all blocks
and unblocks (except for blocks set by the autoblocking feature).
Reviewing this does not show much of a spike in blocks for April 1 in my
judgment. If there is a slight increase, it might easily be explained
based on the recent problems with [[User:Martin2000]] over the
[[Bah?'u'll?h]] article, which has flooded the log with his sockpuppets
(every Nitram00xx user is one of these). The incident there has nothing
to do with April Fool's Day.

I agree that there was more frivolity on Wikipedia for April 1, and some
frivolity elsewhere may have spread here. But in terms of malicious
vandalism, I don't think the evidence indicates that the problem was
worse than any other day.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Alphax

references:
<fb7fdd9c050331013758119070@mail.gmail.com>
	<0FdWyU0285230000.bishlist@ungoodthinkful.com>
	<79C1754C-A224-11D9-A32C-000D93AC9B46@engl.uic.edu>
	<d2iprl$lgg$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
csherlock at ljh.com.au wrote:

> Snowspinner wrote:
>
>> On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Bishonen wrote:
>>
>>> Please don't, for that purpose, move it, copy it, link to it, or use
>>> it.
>>
>> I'm not sure what to point out - no article ownership or the GFDL.
>>
>> -Snowspinner
>
> Uh, wrong. I once moved Netoholic's archive subpages to my own page
> and got told very quickly by Raul654 that this was not acceptable as
> what's in Netoholic's user space was really Netoholic's. Fair enough too.
>
> Care to explain how any of that stuff works for User front pages?
>
> TBSDY
>
Hang on, isn't the author still the copyright holder? I get the feeling
that User space pages are *not* treated as GFDL, but some mix of CC
licenses. Many userpages I have seen that say "Thanks to (other user)
for the layout of this page". Also, editing another user's User page
appears to be seen as vandalism where the 3RR doesn't apply.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
That's interesting - neither fur: nor os: are in the list of languages
or whatever, and neither is in the list of database dumps.

Why?

Mark

On Apr 2, 2005 7:50 AM, V. Ivanov <amikeco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Again: the dead Abkhazian, Avar (and tens of others) are on the list,
> while the 150-article Ossetian is not. Sometimes I feel that the
> Ossetian VP is an independent something, standing _by_, not _in_, the
> Wikipedia project... :(
>
> Can someone fix the problem? The code "os" is not in the lists of
> wikipedias: that causes, e. g., not working interwiki links from other
> wikipedias to the Ossetian. See the bottom of this page:
> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/???????????
>
> If _you_ don't know how to fix, do resend this message to a person who CAN.
>
> Grateful beforehand,
> Sl. Ivanov
>
> On Apr 2, 2005 5:37 AM, Erik Zachte <e.p.zachte at chello.nl> wrote:
> > Wikistats are now available for all Wikimedia projects.
> >
>
> --
> Esperu cxiam!
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Charles Matthews

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: April Fool's Day

body:
Ed Poor wrote

>> Admittedly I was a bit baffled when 'block' a user became 'crush by
>> elephant'.  I do hope that's not permanent.

>Yeah, I was had pressed to resist crushing Brad and Daniel - or saying
Brad had a crush on Daniel - either form may be used, eh?

Next year, perhaps crushing by Jumbo Whales (exploding or not).

Charles


from_name: Tels

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Moin,

On Saturday 02 April 2005 07:42, Anthere wrote:
> Erik... i took the liberty to report all your wikistats information on
> the Quarto. Thanks a lot.
>
> Anthere

Anthere, please do not top-quote (e.g. put your answer on top and the
previous "question" or text at the bottom) and mot importantly, do not
full-quote the entire post!

These two things make it much harder to read your answers:)

Best wishes,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Sat Apr  2 13:03:50 2005 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind." -- Terry
 Pratchett

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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] revision table change in HEAD

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:
> It occurred to me when I saw this that this means that displaying the
> current content of a page requires reading data from all three tables:
> page_current refers to a rev_id, and rev_text_id then refers to the
> 'old_id' in the text table. This seems inefficient somehow, since I
> wouldn't expect anything from the revision table is actually needed
> during normal page viewing (it being entirely history metadata).

Currently the last modified date is used in the page footer, which needs
to be pulled from the revision record. If we really wanted, it might be
possible to pull in a copy of the timestamp to the page record, but I'm
not sure it would be worthwhile.

> Moreover, it looks to me like displaying the page's history doesn't
> refer to page_latest at all, so would it be possible and appropriate
> to make page_latest point directly to the 'text', rather than the
> 'revision'?

That would make it very hard to track the current revision in general,
since we wouldn't know for sure which revision ID was the current one
(the revision -> text mapping is now one-to-many to allow storing
revision records for metadata changes without wastefully duplicating
text storage).

However often we shouldn't need to load the text at all; pre-rendered
HTML will be pulled from the parser cache. Since things are still being
rewritten to make best use of the new schema it's possible that right
_now_ it's wastefully loading the text anyway, but it doesn't need to do so.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Problems with Special:Makesysop

body:
Pedro Fayolle wrote:
> recently we had a new sysop election at the Spanish Wikipedia and it
> was a huge success. We planned to make the candidate sysop today, but
> there's a problem with Special:Makesysop stopping us from doing so.
>
> All we get is error this message:
>
> User "Renacimiento" could not be made into a sysop. (Did you enter the
> name correctly?)

Renacimiento is already a sysop:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especial:Log/rights

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Zoney

subject: [WikiEN-l] April 1st 2006, IRC, the mailing list, and the Cabal

body:
On Apr 2, 2005 4:50 AM, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now that it's over (mostly), a brief synopsis of what happened:
>
>     * A "joke" article was created in the User namespace
>     * Article was nominated as a FAC for April 1st 2005
>     * Mailing list, IRC and Cabal members shouted at each other
>     * Raul, Supreme Overlord of Features, grumpily declared "no"
>     * More shouting results in Main Page becoming full of silliness
>     * Many "joke" articles created
>     * Much concern about cleaning up the aftermath
>
> And now for something completley different:
>
> April 1st, 2006. April Fools Day *next year* (assuming Wikip?dia still
> exists).
>
> Many people liked the idea of an April Fools Day Wikipedia. Many did
> not. Answer: Compromise!
>
> Here is my plan for Supreme Domination and pwnership next year:
>
>     * The Main Page and Article namespace as a whole will remain
> "sensible". Links to April Fools version /might/ be possible.
>     * The Help namespace (which AFAIK is protected anyway) will remain
> untouched. We need to keep the serious things serious.
>     * The Wikipedia namespace (except for policy and information pages)
> is fair game. However, spurious VFDs (eg. Wikipedia:Votes for
> Deletion/Main Page
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Main_Page>)
> should *not* be tolerated.
>     * Templates should be pranked with caution. Examples: VFD Template -
> Terminator Edition
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Vfd&oldid=11749823>,
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Vfd&oldid=11749823>Wikistress
> <http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/1/19/20050401120959%21Wikistress3D_1_v3.jpg>
>     * Things in Mediawiki namespace should be pranked with /extreme
> caution/. Only those things visible to Sysops (or at the very worst,
> logged-in users) should be touchable. Example: Changing "block" to
> "crush by elephant" (but remember, the same joke is only funny once).
>     * Various other suggestions welcome.
>
> DISCLAIMER: I am a deletionist inclusionist sockpuppet troll. I founded
> the Cabal. Jimbo, /I/ am your Father!. Wikipedia is not sane. ALL YOUR
> BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
>
> --
> Alphax
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis
>

I say the simplest answer to next April Fools is to write an article
on a genuine subject, which *truly* seems incredible (in the proper
sense of the word) and bring it through FAC.

Really, to do so shouldn't be too hard. If we did a really good job of
this, with it written completely professionally and deadpan, and kept
*everything* else on Wikipedia as normal (as far as possible), then it
would be truly a public bepuzzlement to be proud of.

I'm not suggesting a hoax, or a lame-o-rama. I'm saying we have a
year, lets find a really unbelievable true subject to create an FA
about.

Oh, and don't give in to impatience and use it before 1 April.

If we don't manage it, I say the suggestion of filling Did You Know
with really unbelievable facts would achieve the same.

----

I was one of the advocates for ETPH on the main page. I was however
sorry to see such really lame "jokes" as the tab renaming, the VfD
template change, etc. Such things were disruptive *and* not in the
spirit of April fools. They were *really* *really* lame. The whole
point is to have one or two convincing subtle hoaxes and keep
everything else normal. The EB takeover thing was a nice idea, but in
reality was far too farcically done.

So although I was happy to see Wikipedians did have a sense of humour
and didn't be too stiff-lipped, I did feel it was a very crude and
unrefined humour.

I'm sure some others were none too surprised to see somewhat of a
parallel between /. and Wikipedia yesterday.

In summary, I'm in favour of us letting our hair down and having April
Fools' content. But we should strive to do it well, and be the best at
it if we're going to bother.

Zoney

--
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...


body:
Now that it's over (mostly), a brief synopsis of what happened:

    * A "joke" article was created in the User namespace
    * Article was nominated as a FAC for April 1st 2005
    * Mailing list, IRC and Cabal members shouted at each other
    * Raul, Supreme Overlord of Features, grumpily declared "no"
    * More shouting results in Main Page becoming full of silliness
    * Many "joke" articles created
    * Much concern about cleaning up the aftermath

And now for something completley different:

April 1st, 2006. April Fools Day *next year* (assuming Wikip?dia still
exists).

Many people liked the idea of an April Fools Day Wikipedia. Many did
not. Answer: Compromise!

Here is my plan for Supreme Domination and pwnership next year:

    * The Main Page and Article namespace as a whole will remain
"sensible". Links to April Fools version /might/ be possible.
    * The Help namespace (which AFAIK is protected anyway) will remain
untouched. We need to keep the serious things serious.
    * The Wikipedia namespace (except for policy and information pages)
is fair game. However, spurious VFDs (eg. Wikipedia:Votes for
Deletion/Main Page
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Main_Page>)
should *not* be tolerated.
    * Templates should be pranked with caution. Examples: VFD Template -
Terminator Edition
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Vfd&oldid=11749823>,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Vfd&oldid=11749823>Wikistress
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/1/19/20050401120959%21Wikistress3D_1_v3.jpg>
    * Things in Mediawiki namespace should be pranked with /extreme
caution/. Only those things visible to Sysops (or at the very worst,
logged-in users) should be touchable. Example: Changing "block" to
"crush by elephant" (but remember, the same joke is only funny once).
    * Various other suggestions welcome.

DISCLAIMER: I am a deletionist inclusionist sockpuppet troll. I founded
the Cabal. Jimbo, /I/ am your Father!. Wikipedia is not sane. ALL YOUR
BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Dariusz Siedlecki

body:
On Apr 2, 2005 3:32 AM, Erik Zachte <e.p.zachte at chello.nl> wrote:
> Stats have been generated from the latest dumps, which are from March 9.

Even though, there aren't respective versions for new Wikinews
languages, which were created on February 19. Were they even created,
or are they simply not included on the stats page?

Dariusz Siedlecki


from_name: Erik Zachte

body:
Dariusz Siedlecki:

> Even though, there aren't respective versions for new Wikinews
> languages, which were created on February 19. Were they even created,
> or are they simply not included on the stats page?

Only languages for which a dump is available will appear in stats
http://download.wikimedia.org/index.php?thingumy=wikinews

According to the language code list that drives the dumps uk/pt/pl/bg/ro/it
will be dumped next time.

Erik Zachte


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] the pope and wikipedia

body:
Now that the pope has died, it would be a good idea if we got ready for all
the news and names in the news, leading up to featured article status. During
the conclave, 117 cardinals will vote and one of them will be elected. If it
anything like last time, it may well be someone rather anonymous. I would
therefore suggest that we try and fill in all th red links in [[College of
Cardinals]] so that we can be ahead of the news. Brishing up the  [[Conclave]]
article could also help.

Danny


from_name: Mark Pellegrini

subject: [WikiEN-l] the pope and wikipedia

body:
/"Bringing up the  [[Conclave]] article could also help. -- Danny"/

I should mention that it's already a featured article and has already been
on the main page. Send thank-you's to Lord Emsworth.

--Mark


body:
Daniel:

>> But why is everything at en.wikipedia.org?
>> Wikimedia.org would make a great deal more sense.

Aphaea:

> Or wikimediafoundation.org ?

This is partly for historic reasons. Wikipedia and Wiktionary stats were
already placed at en.wikipedia.org, so I just extended that scheme for other
projects.

Moving the stats now would break a lot of links, not all links on wikipedia
pages are to the sitemap pages, so I guess each html file would need a
separate redirect?

Similarly why is common.wikipedia.org not named common.wikimedia.org? Other
Wikimedia projects can benefit from a shared resource pool as well.

I guess these small inconsistencies are a fact of life. I can live with it,
but if redirecting all existing links is easy, I don't mind moving all stats
either.

Erik Zachte


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Syntax standardization effort

body:
On Apr 1, 2005 1:54 AM, Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> wrote:

> Forgive me if there was a big discussion of this while I was in lurker
> mode for the past year or so, but is it really a good idea to allow
> arbitrary transclusions at all?

Well, as I and others have said, it's certainly being put to plenty of
use (I gave some examples in the middle of
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-March/028494.html).
Whether this is "good" use or not is open to interpretation and
debate, obviously.

Personally, I think the use on utilty pages (VfD, etc) is rather
clever and makes the pages more useful - it allows the same content to
be viewed in multiple ways. Obviously, that effect could be achieved
by moving whole wodges of content to the Template: namespace, but that
seems to me like a *worse* scenario, in that it pulls content that
belongs in Project pages out of the Project namespace. [Note that, for
a period just before the full template system was invented, people did
exactly this, putting the discussions in the MediaWiki: namespace, to
which transclusions were orginally limited]

I can, however, see your concern that this adds complexity to all
sorts of things, particularly to do with reviewing, auditting - and
dare I mention locking - content. All that would be true however
limitted the feature was, and maybe you meant that there should be no
templates at all. But the enthusiasm with which the feature was used
before it was even properly implemented shows how much it's wanted in
some form.

Basically, I think this comes down to a fundamental conflict within
Wikipedia (and Wikimedia generally), which you could describe as
between the "Wiki-" and the "-pedia" - on the one hand, the concept of
a wiki is that it's simple, community-based, dynamic, etc; on the
other hand, an encyclopedia should be well-presented, comprehensive,
and reader-friendly. That conflict is what brought MediaWiki into
being - from the need for namespaces to neatly seperate discussion and
policy from articles onwards. [If one were designing with only the
"Wiki-" part in mind, one probably wouldn't bother with page
protection, for instance]

Add in the unprecedented *size* of Wikipedia, and templates become
just another essential tool for the community to manage the content
they want to present to readers. Among the diverse ways in which the
template system has been used, I'm sure there would be many that you'd
agree were extremely positive - templates, being, after all, a way to
make management of repeated or similar content *easier*.

I think any such tool will be open to abuse, but also to positive
creative use; telling the difference is a matter for the community,
not the designers of the tool. I, for instance, would count as "abuse"
stacks of attention boxes on one article, and templates nested so
deeply and complexly that you can't work out where the actual content
comes from (e.g. the calendars on en.wikipedia's date articles, which
are cunning but tortuous). Neither problem can really be defined in
technical terms, and some clearly feel they are valid uses, so I think
the *software* is doing it's job just fine.

[Apologies for verbosity and/or tendency to rant; I do not claim this
to be anything other than one opinion in a valid debate]
--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Skyring

subject: [WikiEN-l] April Fool's Day

body:
On Apr 1, 2005 9:23 PM, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Saying Terri died of autofellatio is bad taste and totally not funny.

Did you actually write those words with a straight face?

--
Peter in Canberry


body:
On Mar 28, 2005 12:08 PM, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> revision and text now use separate row ID numbers in HEAD. A revision
> row refers to text.old_id with its rev_text_id key; this allows text
> revisions to be stored independently of a given revision.

It occurred to me when I saw this that this means that displaying the
current content of a page requires reading data from all three tables:
page_current refers to a rev_id, and rev_text_id then refers to the
'old_id' in the text table. This seems inefficient somehow, since I
wouldn't expect anything from the revision table is actually needed
during normal page viewing (it being entirely history metadata).
Moreover, it looks to me like displaying the page's history doesn't
refer to page_latest at all, so would it be possible and appropriate
to make page_latest point directly to the 'text', rather than the
'revision'?

If I've missed some obvious reason why this is poppycock, I apologise
for wasting your time. :)

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


references:
<NMENLBGDKAFGBDHEPOBNAEMICMAA.e.p.zachte@chello.nl>
	<424E30D3.8050601@yahoo.com> <200504021304.49386@bloodgate.com>

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Moin,

On Saturday 02 April 2005 13:04, Tels wrote:
> Moin,
>
> On Saturday 02 April 2005 07:42, Anthere wrote:
> > Erik... i took the liberty to report all your wikistats information
> > on the Quarto. Thanks a lot.
> >
> > Anthere

Aaarg, I'd wanted that to go to Anthere alone, and not the list. Sorry.
Please excuse my fumbling fingers and my feeble mind :)

Best wishes,

Tels

- --
 Signed on Sat Apr  2 16:37:27 2005 with key 0x93B84C15.
 Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/
 PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

 "Duke Nukem Forever is a 1999 game and we think that timeframe matches
 very well with what we have planned for the game." - George Broussard,
 1998 (http://tinyurl.com/6m8nh)

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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

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EjhYh01g3fKDSdjPj7GSoy+2uryuIQ65S1PTDZWB/SBQ+H6NIR1XSSW/MaH6IV68
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: April Fool's Day

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Yeah, I was had pressed to resist crushing Brad and Daniel - or saying
>>Brad had a crush on Daniel - either form may be used, eh?
>>
>>
>
>Who is Brad? Is he cute? :)
>
>-- mav
>
>
Perhaps he's one of the people here:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hedley/April_Fool%27s_Day%2C_2005>

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Phil Sandifer

body:
On Apr 2, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Tony Sidaway wrote:
>
> Not at all.  Didn't you know the internet closes for cleaning on April
> 1?
>

Don't forget to put plastic bags over your keyboards to collect the
dust.

-Snowspinner


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
To all those people who said we should let our hair down, that April
Fools wouldn't really be
so bad (it was), that it wouldn't encourage vandalism wasn't too much
(it did), that people
would do be restrained about it (they weren't), that it would be over by
mid-day (it wasn't),
and that people wouldn't revert war over something so lame (they did), I
just thought I'd mention
that the arbcom recieved a request today from someone blocked for
excessively reverting
[[2005 Britannica takeover of Wikimedia]] (yes, the hoax article)

So thank you very much, to all those of you who pushed this idiotic
idea, from those of us
who actually have to pick up the pieces.

-- Disgruntled


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Wikistats for all WikiMedia projects

body:
Forwarding this from wikipedia-l

============================================================

Again: the dead Abkhazian, Avar (and tens of others) are on the list,
while the 150-article Ossetian is not. Sometimes I feel that the
Ossetian VP is an independent something, standing _by_, not _in_, the
Wikipedia project... :(

Can someone fix the problem? The code "os" is not in the lists of
wikipedias: that causes, e. g., not working interwiki links from other
wikipedias to the Ossetian. See the bottom of this page:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/???????????

If _you_ don't know how to fix, do resend this message to a person who CAN.

Grateful beforehand,
Sl. Ivanov

On Apr 2, 2005 5:37 AM, Erik Zachte <e.p.zachte at chello.nl> wrote:
> Wikistats are now available for all Wikimedia projects.
>

--
Esperu cxiam!
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistats for all Wikimedia projects

body:
>> Similarly why is common.wikipedia.org not named common.wikimedia.org?
Other
>> Wikimedia projects can benefit from a shared resource pool as well.

> Actually, it IS commons.wikimedia.org

Oops, I'm embarrased :)

commons.wikipedia.org is indeed redirected

Erik Zachte


from_name: V. Ivanov

body:
Again: the dead Abkhazian, Avar (and tens of others) are on the list,
while the 150-article Ossetian is not. Sometimes I feel that the
Ossetian VP is an independent something, standing _by_, not _in_, the
Wikipedia project... :(

Can someone fix the problem? The code "os" is not in the lists of
wikipedias: that causes, e. g., not working interwiki links from other
wikipedias to the Ossetian. See the bottom of this page:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/???????????

If _you_ don't know how to fix, do resend this message to a person who CAN.

Grateful beforehand,
Sl. Ivanov

On Apr 2, 2005 5:37 AM, Erik Zachte <e.p.zachte at chello.nl> wrote:
> Wikistats are now available for all Wikimedia projects.
>

--
Esperu cxiam!


from_name: Pawe³ 'Ausir' Dembowski

body:
> Similarly why is common.wikipedia.org not named common.wikimedia.org? Other
> Wikimedia projects can benefit from a shared resource pool as well.

Actually, it IS commons.wikimedia.org

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org


from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] how you can help

body:
On Apr 2, 2005 8:54 AM, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sometimes you find yourself in
> need of help. For fight against vandalism, translation, promotion of
> your projects and anything related to the project.
> You can request for help on
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/We_need_your_help

Perhaps the Wikimedia Collaboration of the Week
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_COTW> could focus on the
tasks listed at this page. The first one is likely to focus on sorting
out the help pages on Meta, but any of the tasks at
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/We_need_your_help> would seem ideal
candidates for a COTW.

Angela.


subject: [Foundation-l] how you can help


from_name: Sj

body:
That's actually a good idea.  And we may as well make it read-only for
anons all the time; they often have no intention of cleaning up after
themselves.  Think of the massive effort that goes into monitoring
their edits -- just for the sake of 'community' -- that could go into
writing quality articles.   --sj--

On Apr 2, 2005 11:24 AM, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
> take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
> it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of anonymous
> users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the next day.

ps - I hear there are five very powerful Japanese-built multi-lingual
Internet-crawling robots now out of business since the upgrade to the
new "self-cleaning" Internet v2... maybe we can hire them.


from_name: Aphaia

body:
Thank you for Erik, It has been my dream to have Wikiquote statistic
pages like Wikipedia...

On Apr 2, 2005 5:19 PM, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Cool. But why is everything at en.wikipedia.org? Wikimedia.org would make a
> great deal more sense.

Or wikimediafoundation.org ?
If no one oppose, I prefer to add links to stat pages on [[Our
projects]] on the WMF.
--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: how you can help

body:
True, but "we need help" does not necessarily call dozen of editors, it
may be just a limited number.
Besides, "we need help" calls for individual initiatives, not for first
a voting time to decide whether the project should be helped or not.

Sorry Angela, but imho, as far as individual help is welcome, voting is
evil :-)

Angela a ?crit:
> On Apr 2, 2005 8:54 AM, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Sometimes you find yourself in
>>need of help. For fight against vandalism, translation, promotion of
>>your projects and anything related to the project.
>>You can request for help on
>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/We_need_your_help
>
>
> Perhaps the Wikimedia Collaboration of the Week
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_COTW> could focus on the
> tasks listed at this page. The first one is likely to focus on sorting
> out the help pages on Meta, but any of the tasks at
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/We_need_your_help> would seem ideal
> candidates for a COTW.
>
> Angela.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: how you can help


references:
<NMENLBGDKAFGBDHEPOBNAEMICMAA.e.p.zachte@chello.nl>	<424E30D3.8050601@yahoo.com>
	<200504021304.49386@bloodgate.com>

body:
You are certainly true I should reduce the amount of quoting ... I will
try to remember it.

However, not all writers agree that top writing is wrong. I personally
find much easier and much quicker to read top-answers than bottom
answers. It depends on the context. In fact, generally, "answers" to a
question are clearer below the questions. "Comment" about a mail are
more quickly read at the top. Imho.

Ant

Tels a ?crit:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Moin,
>
> On Saturday 02 April 2005 07:42, Anthere wrote:
>
>>Erik... i took the liberty to report all your wikistats information on
>>the Quarto. Thanks a lot.
>>
>>Anthere
>
>
> Anthere, please do not top-quote (e.g. put your answer on top and the
> previous "question" or text at the bottom) and mot importantly, do not
> full-quote the entire post!
>
> These two things make it much harder to read your answers:)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tels
>


from_name: Charles Matthews

body:
> Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
> take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
> it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of anonymous
> users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the next day.
>
> -- Tim Starling

Come on - I thought the principle was to stay open for business.

Charles


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
/Well, I think it was easily worth it. On the "fun people" scale, you'd expect
encyclopedia editors to be right down there with accountants and morticians,
but April Fool's demonstrated that, as a community, we have the capacity to
step back for a day and not take ourselves quite so seriously (even if 99% of
the time we're acrimoniously bitching about VfD or Autofellation etc...) I'll
add my thanks to all those people, too.

-- Matt
[[User:Matt Crypto]]

/I'm not against having fun, nor are most of the people who argued
against encouraging the April Fools Day insanity. On the other hand, surely
there's a better way to have fun than vandalizing wikipedia, because
 - don't kid yourself - that's exactly what was going on.

--Mark


from_name: Nathan Wong

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: April 1st 2006, IRC, the mailing list,	and the
	Cabal

body:
Bryan Derksen wrote:

> Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
>> --- Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
>>> take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
>>> it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of anonymous
>>> users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the next day.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Good idea. It would prevent a great deal of nonsense and give people
>> a break.
>>
>>
> We'll have to make sure to put the "joke" articles up just beforehand,
> then. :)

I still don't think that it'd be the best of ideas to shut down the
entire Wiki - if you wanted to give everyone a break, then around the
new year would be a better time. Perhaps stopping anon edits for the day
and giving warning about no excessive April foolery.

That aside, I think that the featured article should be either a well
written, convincing hoax or a well written fact pretending to be a hoax.
The Monty Python eyes were good as well, but besides that, the excessive
madness that was the mainpage just spoiled it a bit.


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Final April Fools wrap up

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

> As such, I propose two simple rules for next year:
>
> 1) There will be one well-coordinated joke for the *outside* world,
> Whether it's a featured article, a press release, or anything else can
> be decided by the cabal on the to-be-created fools-l at wikimedia.org
> mailing list ;-).

With the understanding that one joke may well consist of putting
multiple joke pieces together, just as the Main Page is put together out
of several different pieces. I don't think the one-joke rule should be
used to limit the creativity of those who want to have fun, just channel
it. In this year's scenario, we could have said that all contributions
to the joke effort have to relate to toilet paper; the Monty Python
stuff is off-topic and not allowed.

> 2) Jokes *within* the community are limited to the Wikipedia:, User:
> and *Talk: namespaces. MediaWiki:, Template:, Image: and articles are
> off limits. Jokes should not be overly disruptive.

I think these are reasonable guidelines. However, it should be clarified
that *Talk: only refers to Wikipedia talk: and User talk: areas, and not
the *Talk: namespaces for those that are otherwise off-limits. If
article editing is to be open for business with no silliness, the
attendant discussion must be the same.

--Michael Snow


from_name: Pedro Fayolle

body:
Hello,

recently we had a new sysop election at the Spanish Wikipedia and it
was a huge success. We planned to make the candidate sysop today, but
there's a problem with Special:Makesysop stopping us from doing so.

All we get is error this message:

User "Renacimiento" could not be made into a sysop. (Did you enter the
name correctly?)

The username is correctly spelled and there's nothing else to check. I
am assuming this is a bug in Medawiki. If anyone knows how to fix it,
we would greatly appreciate the help. In the meanwhile I would like to
ask someone with enough priviledges to manually do the sysopping for
us, as the voting was already closed.

Thanks in advance,

Pedro (User:Pilaf)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
In a message dated 4/2/2005 10:10:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
erik_moeller at gmx.de writes:

As such,  I propose two simple rules for next year:

1) There will be one  well-coordinated joke for the *outside* world,
Whether it's a featured  article, a press release, or anything else can
be decided by the cabal on  the to-be-created fools-l at wikimedia.org
mailing list ;-).

2) Jokes  *within* the community are limited to the Wikipedia:, User:
and *Talk:  namespaces. MediaWiki:, Template:, Image: and articles are
off limits.  Jokes should not be overly disruptive.

I second this.

Danny


body:
D'oh. Sorry about the confusion and thanks.

Pedro

On Apr 2, 2005 9:15 PM, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Pedro Fayolle wrote:
> > recently we had a new sysop election at the Spanish Wikipedia and it
> > was a huge success. We planned to make the candidate sysop today, but
> > there's a problem with Special:Makesysop stopping us from doing so.
> >
> > All we get is error this message:
> >
> > User "Renacimiento" could not be made into a sysop. (Did you enter the
> > name correctly?)
>
> Renacimiento is already a sysop:
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especial:Log/rights
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Richard Holton (richholton at gmail.com) [050402 13:54]:

> This applies to anything posted to Wikipedia. You'll see the same
> notice about the GFDL below the edit box on a User page as anywhere
> else.
> What seems to have at least some degree of consensus is that others
> should grant people a great deal of control over what they have in
> their user space. But this is a matter of courtesy, not a matter of
> copyright or Wikipedia policy (that I am aware of).

There is a general feeling (which the ArbCom tried to put into words) that
your userspace is pretty much yours, as long as it's for project-related
purposes. You can delete anyone else's changes, remove their comments,
revert it as many times a day as you like, etc. Using it as general hosting
space isn't considered acceptable (not project-related) nor is using it as
a launching pad for personal attacks (against the project). I'm sure
there's some elegant and retrospectively obvious wording of it, but I think
the idea is reasonably clear for the non-pathological.

> Many admins seem to treat unwanted changes to another's user pages as
> vandalism...and I do not wholly disagree.  But I don't know that it
> follows the letter of the policy.

Simple vandalism is still simple vandalism if it isn't the user themselves
doing it. Some people get *really* upset about even a spelling or
punctuation correction to their user page, GFDL or not, "edited
mercilessly" warning or not.

In this particular case, Bishonen's nihilartikel may be GFDL, but she did
ask nicely for it not to be used in certain ways. So it then becomes a
consideration of reasonableness and politeness rather than copyright and
policy.

- d.


from_name: Petr Kadlec

subject: [Wikitech-l] Missing os: language code in interwiki of wikics

body:
Hi all!

May I ask someone with the proper access to update the interwiki table
at cs: Wikipedia? At least "os:" does not work as an interlanguage
link there. See e.g. the bottom of http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005

Thanks,
-- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]


body:
Alphax (alphasigmax at gmail.com) [050402 14:50]:

> Now that it's over (mostly), a brief synopsis of what happened:
>    * A "joke" article was created in the User namespace
>    * Article was nominated as a FAC for April 1st 2005
>    * Mailing list, IRC and Cabal members shouted at each other
>    * Raul, Supreme Overlord of Features, grumpily declared "no"
>    * More shouting results in Main Page becoming full of silliness
>    * Many "joke" articles created
>    * Much concern about cleaning up the aftermath

And a new entry on [[WP:LAME]]!

- d.


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Database backup

body:
Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> The last database dump on download.wikimedia.org is from March 9th, almost
> one month ago.
>
> Is it correct therefore that we have no backup for data written after that
> day? Or is there some other backup strategy at the colo?
>
> Alfio

We have several (three?) databases receiving content replication. So
even if 2 servers totally crash at the same time, and 1 can not be used
for whatever reason, we will still have 1 working copy.

ASCII schema is something like:

                            --> Slave #1
                          /
Users -> Master Database -----> Slave #2
                          \
                            --> Slave #3

As for regular dumps (aka twice per week), stats generation ... I think
we wait for a monster server (read more disk space).

cheers,

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org


references:
<NMENLBGDKAFGBDHEPOBNAEMICMAA.e.p.zachte@chello.nl>	<424E30D3.8050601@yahoo.com>	<200504021304.49386@bloodgate.com>
	<424ED88A.8040404@yahoo.com>

body:
Anthere wrote:
> You are certainly true I should reduce the amount of quoting ... I will
> try to remember it.

please start doing it NOW ! >)

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Syntax standardization effort

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
<snip>
> There's another way:
> * Agree on a XML standard for wikis
> * Each wiki system writes a wiki-to-XML and XML-to-wiki function

That's a good way to exchange between system. But do we have an XML
draft already ?

> Otherwise, with (n) wiki systems, *at least* (n-1) will have to make
> changes, if not all of them. From what I can tell, "**" is used for
> "bold", so any of you really want to change from "'''"? ;-)

''' and '' cause troubles when the language use ' . In french we might
want to say : l'''?toile'' . Parser will bug on that one : it starts
bold then start italic.

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
Servers in trouble ? noc (at) wikimedia (dot) org


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

body:
On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, David Gerard wrote:

>Ashar Voultoiz (hashar at twenkill.net) [050403 07:25]:
>> Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>> > Otherwise, with (n) wiki systems, *at least* (n-1) will have to make
>> > changes, if not all of them. From what I can tell, "**" is used for
>> > "bold", so any of you really want to change from "'''"? ;-)
>
>> ''' and '' cause troubles when the language use ' . In french we might
>> want to say : l'''?toile'' . Parser will bug on that one : it starts
>> bold then start italic.
>
>
>It's bad enough in English. You end up with either tortured syntax or
>tortured use of <nowiki>. Any language with apostrophes will have this
>problem.

The 1.4 parser seems much better on this than the previous ones, and I am
removing lots of now useless <nowiki> from lots of pages in italian.
Things like l'''italia'' work correctly, producing an "l", an apostrophe
and a word in italics. The only cases when <nowiki> is still necessary are
when there are multiple instances of ''', '' and ' on a single line and
parsers gets confused.

Alfio


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Changes in the Python Wikipediabot framework

body:
Here are the changes to the Python Wikipedia framework since the last
mail of February 20. On
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywikipediabot/, there is a snapshot
of March 23, newer versions can be found at
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/pywikipediabot/pywikipedia/, or
be asked from me. The changes with * were made after March 23, and
thus do not appear in the snapshot.

There have been complaints about the bot suddenly not working - this
has to do with the changes to family.py and such not having been
handled correctly. If you upload a version where the families have
been moved to the subdirectory families, please remove any file of
which the name ends at "family.py" or "family.pyc" from the main bot
directory, except family.py itself.

general:
* Namespace names for a large number of languages (this also repairs a
bug where interwiki.py did not find category-pages for some languages)
(family.py 1.32, wikipedia.py 1.427)
* Language os: has been added (family.py 1.37*)
* Knows the local text for #REDIRECT and {{{PAGENAME}}} on languages
that have it (in other languages of importance for the interwiki-bot)
(family.py 1.38*)
* disable possibility to log in under another username, because the
other bots are not able to use the option (login.py 1.23, wikipedia.py
1.431)
* : is not used in filenames, because Windows does not allow it
(mediawiki_messages.py 1.23)
* Families are now in a separate directory (wikipedia.py 1.424, all
files in families/, also delete family.pyc and other files as
specified above)
* removed a situation where the bot could save a page although it had
an edit conflict (wikipedia.py 1.428)
* stop crashing on link [[]] (wikipedia.py 1.442)

Wiki-specific:
* New family for wikinews (families/wikinews_family.py 1.1*)
* bugfix for wikibooks (families/wikibooks_family.py 1.5*)
* list of 'largest' languages for Wikipedia updated
(family/wikipedia_family.py 1.6*)
* New family for linpedia.org (families/linpedia_family.py 1.1*)
* bugfix for mozilla (families/mozilla_family.py 1.3)
* vi: wiktionary does not use capitalization (families/wiktionary_family.py 1.4)
* bugfix for Wiktionary (families/wiktionary_family.py 1.6)
* New family for dvd.wikidev.net (families/wpdvd_family.py 1.2)

new bot:
* followlive.py: does life check on new pages (followlive.py 1.4*,
wikipedia.py 1.421, family.py 1.27, wikipedia.py 1.444*,
spelling/spelling-nl.txt 1.3*)
* spellcheck.py: spellchecks Wiki-pages (using a list of known words)
(spellcheck.py 1.7*)
* weblinkchecker.py: Checks external links (weblinkchecker.py 1.3)

category.py:
* Changing the name of a category is now done with "category.py
rename" instead of "category.py move" (category.py 1.68)
* does not crash over a non-existing category.dump (category.py 1.71)
* bugfix for category.py -tidy (category.py 1.71)
* category.py move now empties the old category, and attempts to copy
its contents to the new one (catlib.py 1.34)

editarticle.py:
* editarticle explicitly does not enable anonymous editing any more
(editarticle.py 1.18)

find.py:
* actually, I don't know what was changed here, sorry (find.py 1.4*)

imageharvest.py
* additional options -shown and -justshown, to also/only include
pictures shown on the specified page (imageharvest.py 1.6)

imagetransfer.py
* handles non-ASCII image names correctly (imagetransfer.py 1.26)
* take the 'is copied' message from the destination instead of the
source wiki (lib_images.py 1.62)

interwiki.py:
* bug repair with Norse handling (interwiki.py 1.141)
* bug repair causing bot to say it 'changed' a link when it actually
removed it (interwiki.py 1.142)
* some reworking of the logging system (interwiki.py 1.146, config.py
1.49, splitwarning.py 1.6, warnfile.py 1.15, wikipedia.py 1.426)
* re-add the dumping facility which had been accidentily removed
(interwiki.py 1.149)
* when called with option -array, does not get more than the specified
number of pages (interwiki.py 1.149)
* addition of Polish commentary text; change of Czech and Swedish
commentary text (interwiki.py 1.157*)
* repair of a rare bug causing the bot to think it has to change a
non-existing page (interwiki.py 1.154)
* interwiki.py knows date names automatically for a large number of
languages (date.py 1.19)
* interwiki.py knows years BC for af:, ro: and sl:, but not for bg:
(which redirects to centuries) (date.py 1.23*)
* You can now specify a category to have the 'same' name on another
wiki, even though it has another category namespace name (family.py
1.32, wikipedia.py 1.427)
* in languages using alphabetical ordering of languages, all languages
are now ordered rather than just most (family.py 1.33)
* 'scanwiki' option for nn: implemented (wikipedia.py 1.439,
families/wikipedia_family.py 1.5)

splitwarning.py:
* Use a '*' with the list, making posting to the wiki easier
(splitwarning.py 1.5)
* Use the correct encoding for the logfiles (splitwarning.py 1.8)

redirect.py:
* adapted to changed MediaWiki code (redirect.py 1.23, wikipedia.py 1.429)

replace.py:
* various bugfixes (replace.py 1.46)
* option -cat to work on all pages in a category (replace.py 1.47)

solve_disambiguation.py
* gets at most 20 pages at once (solve_disambiguation.py 1.132)
* does not edit pages with certain texts (currently only active on
de:) (solve_disambiguation.py 1.135)
* ignored pages with the -primary argument are not loaded
(solve_disambiguation.py 1.136)
* does not crash when asked to work on a non-existing page
(solve_disambiguation.py 1.137)
* various bugfixes(solve_disambiguation.py 1.139)
* tells the number of pages it will actually edit
(solve_disambiguation.py 1.140*)
* pages to ignore for de: changed and fy: added (solve_disambiguation.py 1.141*)

template.py:
* support for templates with sortkeys (template.py 1.15)

upload.py:
* when using the -wiki option, take the 'is copied' message from the
destination instead of the source wiki (lib_images.py 1.62)
* correction of fatal bug (upload.py 1.21)

(hopefully) invisible changes:
* category.py has been made more object-oriented (category.py 1.68)
* catlib.py handles usage of the -lang attribute (category.py 1.69,
catlib.py 1.35)
* obsolete code removed from config.py (config.py 1.43)
* encoding declaration (config.py 1.46)
* various simplification and additions to family.py
* interwiki.py now uses warnfile.py to read warnfiles (interwiki.py
1.143, solve_disambiguation.py 1.132)
* more object-orientation in several bots (replace.py 1.41,
solve_disambiguation.py 1.131, table2wiki.py 1.61, upload.py 1.20,
warnfile.py 1.14))
* template.py uses replace.py (replace.py 1.42)

Andre Engels


subject: [Wikitech-l] Changes in the Python Wikipediabot framework


from_name: Tony Sidaway

body:
David Gerard said:
> Any language with apostrophes will have this
> problem.

I've never encountered the problem, but if it happens on two major
languages we should take it seriousl.  Perhaps we should consider changing
the emphasis character and consult widely on all active MediaWiki projects
to determine if this would solve the problem without causing more.


body:
Charles Matthews said:
>> Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
>> take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
>> it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of
>> anonymous users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the
>> next day.
>>
>> -- Tim Starling
>
> Come on - I thought the principle was to stay open for business.

Not at all.  Didn't you know the internet closes for cleaning on April 1?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Please let it be over...

body:
Michael Snow said:
> If there is a slight increase, it might easily be
> explained  based on the recent problems with [[User:Martin2000]] over
> the
> [[Bah?'u'll?h]] article, which has flooded the log with his sockpuppets
>  (every Nitram00xx user is one of these). The incident there has
> nothing  to do with April Fool's Day.

Indeed, I was the one of those who placed those very blocks.  Martin2000's
socks accounted for many blocks on April 1 and none of this is in any way
attributable to April Foolery.
Last time I looked, someone said he was up to Nitram0023--twenty-two sock
puppets, starting with Nitram0002, an anagram of his original username.
>
> I agree that there was more frivolity on Wikipedia for April 1, and
> some  frivolity elsewhere may have spread here. But in terms of
> malicious  vandalism, I don't think the evidence indicates that the
> problem was  worse than any other day.

Thank you.

I have to admit, though, that I seldom enter Wikipedia by the main page,
and when I do so I'm at work and I have images turned off.  If Mr
Autofellatio showed his estimable pecker there, I would not have noticed.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
Mark Pellegrini said:
> To all those people who said we should let our hair down, that April
> Fools wouldn't really be
> so bad (it was), that it wouldn't encourage vandalism wasn't too much
> (it did), that people
> would do be restrained about it (they weren't),

I find no factual support for your claims.


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
On Apr 3, 2005 12:28 AM, Mark Pellegrini <mapellegrini at comcast.net> wrote:
> To all those people who said we should let our hair down, that April
> Fools wouldn't really be
> so bad (it was), that it wouldn't encourage vandalism wasn't too much
> (it did), that people
> would do be restrained about it (they weren't), that it would be over by
> mid-day (it wasn't),
> and that people wouldn't revert war over something so lame (they did), I
> just thought I'd mention
> that the arbcom recieved a request today from someone blocked for
> excessively reverting
> [[2005 Britannica takeover of Wikimedia]] (yes, the hoax article)
>
> So thank you very much, to all those of you who pushed this idiotic
> idea, from those of us
> who actually have to pick up the pieces.
>
> -- Disgruntled

To clarify I put in the request arbitration and I carried out the
block. The problem is not directly related to april the first
(although it is a contributing factor) but to silly articles in
general.

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
> I find no factual support for your claims.

will this do for a start?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Alternative-navigation.png

--
geni


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
geni said:
>
> To clarify I put in the request arbitration and I carried out the
> block. The problem is not directly related to april the first
> (although it is a contributing factor) but to silly articles in
> general.

Withdraw your silly RFAR.  Just think of April 1 as Halloween for people
who aren't into all that superstitious stuff.


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

body:
That would be undermining the very point that promotes Wikipedia, though.
"Anyone can edit" is false if anons can't edit. Theres a lot of people who
would just walk out if that became true.

I think making it read-only for cleanup on April Fool's is a bit of a bad
idea. Ideal case is the Pope - If it was read only, the site would be saying
he is in critical condition, and many other events would be unattended. Not
long ago Wikipedia was read-only for just 9 hours or so, and that was far
too long a wait for many.

Few would enjoy seeing 48 hours of reading Wikipedia, and nothing else.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sj" <2.718281828 at gmail.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: April 1st 2006, IRC, the mailing list,and the
Cabal

> That's actually a good idea.  And we may as well make it read-only for
> anons all the time; they often have no intention of cleaning up after
> themselves.  Think of the massive effort that goes into monitoring
> their edits -- just for the sake of 'community' -- that could go into
> writing quality articles.   --sj--
>
> On Apr 2, 2005 11:24 AM, Tim Starling <t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au>
wrote:
> > Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
> > take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
> > it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of anonymous
> > users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the next day.
>
> ps - I hear there are five very powerful Japanese-built multi-lingual
> Internet-crawling robots now out of business since the upgrade to the
> new "self-cleaning" Internet v2... maybe we can hire them.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
> Withdraw your silly RFAR.  Just think of April 1 as Halloween for people
> who aren't into all that superstitious stuff.

It isn't silly. Considering what happened last time someone pulled
their own 3RR I'm playing very safe.

--
geni


from_name: Matt R

subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
--- Mark Pellegrini <mapellegrini at comcast.net> wrote:
> To all those people who said we should let our hair down, that April
> Fools wouldn't really be so bad (it was)...
>
> So thank you very much, to all those of you who pushed this idiotic
> idea, from those of us who actually have to pick up the pieces.

Well, I think it was easily worth it. On the "fun people" scale, you'd expect
encyclopedia editors to be right down there with accountants and morticians,
but April Fool's demonstrated that, as a community, we have the capacity to
step back for a day and not take ourselves quite so seriously (even if 99% of
the time we're acrimoniously bitching about VfD or Autofellation etc...) I'll
add my thanks to all those people, too.

-- Matt
[[User:Matt Crypto]]

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
Mark Pellegrini said:
> there's a better way to have fun than vandalizing wikipedia,
> because
> - don't kid yourself - that's exactly what was going on.

I  dealt with several instances of vandalism that day, no more than usual,
and according to my log only one of them could be attributed to April 1.
That there was an explosion of vandalism on April 1, 2005 is a myth.
There were some bits of localized insanity which were very much in keeping
with the spirit of this centuries-old joke day. I categorically did not
find any more vandalism than expected on a normal day.  I cannot believe
that I have to defend April 1 jokes on a system like Wikipedia--whatever
happened to being bold?


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: April 1st 2006, IRC, the mailing list, and the Cabal

body:
Next year we should switch the wiki to read-only mode for 48 hours and
take the opportunity to clean up the database schema a bit. Remember
it's not just admins messing with articles, there's plenty of anonymous
users too, and not all of them are careful to clean up the next day.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
Erik Moeller said:
>
> I ask you not to dismiss concerns about this matter too easily as
> "boring people not getting it."

....
> I propose two simple rules for next year:
>
> 1) There will be one well-coordinated joke...

Damn it man, you're two days late.  What kept you?


subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
>
> In a message dated 4/2/2005 10:10:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> erik_moeller at gmx.de writes:
>
> As such,  I propose two simple rules for next year:
>
> 1) There will be one  well-coordinated joke for the *outside* world,
> Whether it's a featured  article, a press release, or anything else can
> be decided by the cabal on  the to-be-created fools-l at wikimedia.org
> mailing list ;-).
>
> 2) Jokes  *within* the community are limited to the Wikipedia:, User:
> and *Talk:  namespaces. MediaWiki:, Template:, Image: and articles are
> off limits.  Jokes should not be overly disruptive.
>
>
>
>
> I second this.
>
> Danny

I'm not sure about this. Setting hard rules for April Fool's Day isn't good.
I think the experienced Wikipedians should simply come to some sort of
agreement on behaviour - this year, for example, one or two members used it
as an excuse to vandalise current articles, whereas others made more
'understandable' changes.

The Britannica stuff was fine, maybe it got out of hand, but it was well
co-ordinated and didn't cause too much disruption. Putting ETPH on the front
page wasn't given permission, but it did no harm. Adding articles such as
[[Susej]] and putting good users up for arbitration/bad users up for
adminship, and so on, is understandable also.

I think that the problem is with the events on articles such as, for
example, [[Evolution]] (Michael Jackson-related changes) and [[Ashlee
Simpson]] (childs drawing added as a 'self-portrait') is where it goes too
far. Thats where you'd be driving away newbies, and ultimately thats where
you go from fun to vandalism.

I think, to conclude, it should just be said - And not hard-coded - That fun
and pranks and jokes is one thing, whereas vandalism is another. A lot of
the stuff below the first twenty images on [[User:Hedley/April Fool's Day,
2005]] is probably vandalism and really took it over the mark a little.

Not to say it wasn't funny, but encyclopaedias aren't meant to indicate with
Raul654 is a smooth newt, or whatever the users who made the changes were
trying to imply.

- D. Hedley


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Final April Fools wrap up

body:
Tony,

I don't know about page vandalism, but I do know that the navigation
structure of the site was messed with by ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason,
Fennec, and Pakaran. Such changes can easily make the site effectively
unusable for newbies.

I ask you not to dismiss concerns about this matter too easily as
"boring people not getting it." The very real problem here is that on an
openly editable site, everyone seems to feel they have license to make
their own little joke, and the accumulation of all of them together is a
little too much. A lot of serious magazines and newspapers have an April
Fool's joke, but very few have more than one.

As an educational resource, we have a responsibility to maintain the
integrity and the accessibility of our information. People should feel
that they are visiting a site run by people with a sense of humor, but
it shouldn't look like a site run by drunk teenagers either.

As such, I propose two simple rules for next year:

1) There will be one well-coordinated joke for the *outside* world,
Whether it's a featured article, a press release, or anything else can
be decided by the cabal on the to-be-created fools-l at wikimedia.org
mailing list ;-).

2) Jokes *within* the community are limited to the Wikipedia:, User:
and *Talk: namespaces. MediaWiki:, Template:, Image: and articles are
off limits. Jokes should not be overly disruptive.

There's still plenty of room for spontaneity, but sanity and integrity
to the outside world are preserved.

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Foolish policy proposal

body:
As per my earlier post - maybe for next year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rules_for_Fools

All best,

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: how you can help

body:
I see no reason for the pages not to coexist -- just as we have multiple
pages on the English Wikipedia pointing out articles in need of help,
hopefully there will be multiple pages on Meta coordinating work on
worthwhile projects.

The main difference with the Collaboration of the Week (COTW) idea is
that it should be featured on the individual Wikimedia projects to truly
bring out a large number of volunteers working on a single task in
multiple languages. That high level of exposure makes it necessary to
have a selection process, and the voting rules as used on Wikimedia COTW
have proven very successful for the English Wikipedia COTW.

The first WM-COTW will start on Monday; I'll send out a separate
announcement then and Angela and I will try to get the template into use
on some more Community Portals or similar pages. Any help is welcome.

Hopefully, if the WM-COTW is successful, this will get more people
interested in Meta and, hence, in the [[We need your help]] page and
similar tasklists.

All best,

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: how you can help


body:
Ashar Voultoiz (hashar at twenkill.net) [050403 07:25]:
> Magnus Manske wrote:

> > Otherwise, with (n) wiki systems, *at least* (n-1) will have to make
> > changes, if not all of them. From what I can tell, "**" is used for
> > "bold", so any of you really want to change from "'''"? ;-)

> ''' and '' cause troubles when the language use ' . In french we might
> want to say : l'''?toile'' . Parser will bug on that one : it starts
> bold then start italic.

It's bad enough in English. You end up with either tortured syntax or
tortured use of <nowiki>. Any language with apostrophes will have this
problem.

- d.