subject: [WikiEN-l] Like fun?

body:
Who announced that their purpose was to disrupt
Wikipedia?
Mark

--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> Ok, When someone announces that his purpose is to
> disrupt Wikipedia perhaps
> you should take him seriously and react
> appropriately.
>
> Fred
>
> > From: Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:28:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Like fun?
> >
> > Help me out! ;)
> >
> > --- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> >> Like fun.
> >>
> >> Fred
> >>
> >>> From: Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com>
> >>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia
> >> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
> >>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Is User:The Trolls
> of
> >> Navarone another
> >>> 142/Entmoots/JRR reincarnation?
> >>>
> >>> The user is using
> >>> the term troll to declare his politics about
> >>> Wikipedia, but that in itself is not a good
> reason
> >> to
> >>> ban him.
> >>> Mark
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other
> providers!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Fred Bauder

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Is User:The Trolls of Navarone another
	142/Entmoots/JRR reincarnation?

body:
Like fun.

Fred

> From: Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Is User:The Trolls of Navarone another
> 142/Entmoots/JRR reincarnation?
>
> The user is using
> the term troll to declare his politics about
> Wikipedia, but that in itself is not a good reason to
> ban him.
> Mark


from_name: Arno M

subject: [WikiEN-l] Attachments, mark 2.

body:
The first post did not work out.

Let's try it again...

The fully copied across statem gives another reason to avoid sending
attachments. I still suspect that the phone Osama bin laden spam mail
that I got originated from here.

Arno

On Jun 30, 2004, at 3:48 AM, Arno M wrote:

> There seems to be a tendency amongst some users to e-mail using
> attachments.
>
> Could I remind them that this will produce irritating "An HTML
> attachment was scrubbed...
> " error messages? Just send them in plain text.

On Jun 30, 2004, at 6:00 AM, rkscience100 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Your document is attached.
[<document.pif> not quoted]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Er, that's not good.  If we're blocking attachments, why do worms
like this get through?

Peter

--
_______________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


subject: [WikiEN-l] Like fun?

body:
Ok, When someone announces that his purpose is to disrupt Wikipedia perhaps
you should take him seriously and react appropriately.

Fred

> From: Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:28:14 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Like fun?
>
> Help me out! ;)
>
> --- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>> Like fun.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>> From: Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com>
>>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia
>> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
>>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Is User:The Trolls of
>> Navarone another
>>> 142/Entmoots/JRR reincarnation?
>>>
>>> The user is using
>>> the term troll to declare his politics about
>>> Wikipedia, but that in itself is not a good reason
>> to
>>> ban him.
>>> Mark
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
I appreciate your eloquent and measured approach to a topic where the
latter is often absent.  I will withhold comment about the specific
situation with WHEELER because I have not read through the material, nor
applied the due dilligence that would be required before a valid comment
could be made.  The important points do indeed go beyond this specific
person's claims.

steven l. rubenstein wrote:

> Reading various people's response to my charge of anti-Semitism (on my
> talk page and here) I realize that some people either do not
> understand my basic assumptions about hate-speech.  Since this matter
> extends beyond WHEELER or the early National Socialism talk page to a
> matter of general policy, I want to clarify my assumptions here.

It's in that spirit that I would respond.

> 1) hate speech is categorically different from offensive or uncivil
> remarks.  Many people have pointed out that there is often a certain
> level of incivility at Wikipedia; sometimes people make unfortunately
> offensive remarks in the heat of an argument, and sometimes remarks
> are offensive because they are controversial and play a constructive
> role in an argument.  I agree with these points in principle, but do
> not think they apply to hate speech.  ...  Anti-Semitism is not wrong
> because it is hurtful on an individual or personal level;
> anti-Semitism attacks a whole group.  Anti-Semitism is impersonal by
> nature.  ....  You do not have to feel personally injured to oppose
> something that is wrong.

It is important to look at many of these incidents in context.  A person
who has made remarks that may be interpreted as anti-semitic needs to
have opportunities to recognize his errors, particularly if those
comments come in the heat of editorial battle.  Last year here in Canada
an important leader in the First Nations community made some obviously
anti-semitic remarks in the course of a single speech.  The outcry was
immediate.  As a result he lost his job, and his credibility in the
community was shot.  He soon after publicly apologized for his remarks.
That should have been the end of it, but militant Jewish organizations
continue to insist that the matter be continued in the criminal justice
system.  These very vocal and very public organizations manage to
promote a public image of Jews as completely insensitive and
unforgiving.  The same can be said of the Nazi hunters who continue to
seek punishment on old men 60 years after the fact, often at great
expense.  There comes a time when these events need to be put behind us
so that everyone can go on with life.  Anti-semitism was pandemic before
WWII, and not just in Germany.  The shock of the Nazi crimes resulted in
a lot of good will toward Jews, but I'm afraid that that good will has
been rapidly eroding.

> 2) hate speech is never about factual accuracy.  This is because facts
> are contingent, but racism is based on essentialism.  ...  To then
> talk about "Jewish concentration camps" is simply not about a factual
> claim we can research or question.  There is no point in even
> questioning it as a factual claim.  It is absurd on its face and the
> only point of the claim is to lump all Jews together, to treat them
> not as individuals but as members of a class.  By the way, sometimes
> such correlations may be valid.  Criminologists often look for
> correlations between behavior and race, class, or gender.  ...

When I read the reference to "Jewish concentration camps" on the
previous message, it was unclear whether the writer meant camps "for"
Jews or "by" Jews.  Your last comment above looks almost like support of
racial profiling.  (Blacks commit more common crimes; all Arabs are
potential terrorists, even after the mistaken early claims in connection
with the Oklahoma City bombing, etc.)

Hate speech can be based on transplanted facts.  There is adequate
reason to be critical of the activities of the Israeli state, but there
is no basis for extrapolating those facts into a basis for criticising
all Jewry.   Unfortunately, those Jews who are quick to condemn
anti-Israeli claims as implicitly anti-semitic do a disservice to their
cause.   The true anti-semites feel that their position is bolstered.

> 3) There is a difference between what one feels or thinks, and how one
> expresses it publicly.  Regulating hate speech (through a ban, or an
> apology or retraction) is not about regulating how someone feels.  I
> don't think it is possible to control someone else's feelings -- hell,
> I am not sure it is possible to control one's own feelings.  And if it
> were possible, I don't think it would be desirable.  But we (not just
> government, but society or community) regulates how people express
> there feelings all the time.  We can think what we like, but we know
> that in some contexts it is inappropriate or even dangerous to say
> what we think; we regulate ourselves, personally, as well.  ...

Of course it's up to the members of a community to regulate these
things.  When governments and other bureaucracies get involved, the
people lose that control.  On the other hand I get worried when people
cry out that they want to see justice done.  I am concerned that the
philosophy that underlies their sense of justice may be somewhat less
than scholarly.

> 4) Wikipedia should not tolerate hate speech.  I think an open society
> should limit such regulation as much as possible. Some people have
> pointed out that even WHEELER has a right to free speech.  I agree.
> But that does not mean that someone can say whatever they like, here.
> We should tolerate a certain level of offensive remarks as unavoidable
> byproducts of heated exchanges, just as we should tolerate a high
> level of ultimately empty chatter on talk pages as necessary
> byproducts of the editing process.  We should certainly encourage
> controversy.  But there is simply no benefit to Wikipedia from hate
> speech, and there is no need for us to provide people with an outlet
> for hate speech. ....  Wikipedia policy is not nor should be the same
> thing as state or federal law.

Intolerance has its extremes, and we do have one other well-known Jewish
Wikipedian whose cries of anti-semitism have become legendary.  Not all
such cases are as clear as he would have us believe.  Some otherwise
well-respected Wikipedians can easily wander into forbidden areas, but
that is not enough to brand them as bigots.  The person's entire pattern
of behavious is far more instructive.

Ec


from_name: David Gerard

body:
Michael Snow (wikipedia at earthlink.net) [040702 16:31]:

> He has an IP address of 217.26.162.142 listed on his user page. Would
> one of the developers mind checking out whether that matches up to
> EntmootsOfTrolls or JRR Trollkien?

The box claims to be in Moldova. My first suspicion is that it is 0wnz0r3d.

- d.


from_name: Dan Drake

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Re: American concepts of justice

body:
On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:32:18 UTC, Ray Saintonge
<saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> Dan Drake wrote:
>
> >Actually, I considered putting a disclaimer in the posting, but thought it
> >would be a waste.  Wrong again.  I need to be more ultra-patriotic
> >American, and assume that any praise of anything in my country will be
> >taken as an attack on the world, foreigners being quite unable (like all
> >too many Americans) to understand such subtleties.
> >
> >
> Ultra-patriotism is one thing that will unite non-Americans of any
> political stripe anywhere.  Praising what is right is perfectly
> acceptable to many of us foreigners.  Just try to avoid gratuitous
> superlatives; they are not subtle. :-)

I quite agree.  In fact, ultra-patriotism of any kind will offend people
everywhere, including America (*).  It's not clear to me, though, why you
admonish me in this way.  It will surely have been clear that the post
(from which you chose to cite only a paragraph of sarcasm so heavy-handed
that perhaps I should apologize for it), as well as previous posts in this
thread, went to some trouble to avoid superlatives.

(*) Not all, of course.  Some people approve of ultra-patriotism of the
_proper_ sort, here as elsewhere.  By the way, thanks for giving us le mot
juste for such people; I infer that chauvinism is not unknown in the
country which M. Chauvin had the honor (insofar as he was real, and
separated from the mythology) to live in.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: proposal: rename "Votes for deletion" to "Triage"

body:
On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:23:59 UTC, Timwi
<timwi at gmx.net> wrote:

> Robert Dodier wrote:
>
> > Maybe "Triage" isn't the best name since it
> > suggests trauma. Any other ideas?
>
> Votes for an article's fate? :)

Triage by consensus.  A peculiarly Wikipedian idea, in more than one sense
of "peculiar".  Go for it.


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Desmond Tutu

subject: [Wikipedia-l] About a new language...

body:
Hello.

I write to you because I think it would be important to make another translation of Wikipedia. I would like to make a translation in Chadian. Of course, it's not a widespread language but we are many to speak it. This idea went to me when I was showing to my friend the encyclopedia. He said that it would be very useful to have a Chadian encyclopedia. Everybody was enthusiastic about this idea. That's why I am asking if we can translate the encyclopedia. Of course, the Chadian-speakers will be great to see an encyclopedia of their own language. It will help people to acquire knowledge about the language and to practice it. I write to you because I am following the steps written at this link (http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_start_a_new_wikipedia).

Chadian is very small language spoken everywhere in the world : North America and Europe mainly. It's a non-recognized language and it is using the Cyrillic alphabet which is rare. Chadian is as important as Esperanto, Volap?k or any other languages on Earth. On that, I wish that you will give to us the opportunity to have our own encyclopedia... It will be a very big step for our language. Thank you, waiting your answer, Bobby.
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from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Optimize mentoring system

body:
Not exactly the same, but attempt to reduce the redunduncy in checking new
pages exist on English wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_pages_patrol

I think problem is not the redundancy, but the human resource. There aren't
just enough people doing it.

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/


from_name: Michael Snow

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Optimize <s>mentoring</s> monitoring system

body:
Fennec Foxen wrote:

>On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:17:12 +0200, Erik Zachte <e.p.zachte at chello.nl> wrote:
>
>
>>Only trusted mentors should have access to this function to avoid trolls
>>approving their own edits.
>>
>>
>"Trusted mentor"?
>If you're proposing a new permissions bit, how will we go about
>selecting people to fill the role? What would you say to the
>(numerous) objections about there being a new role, the confusing
>and/or evil heirerarchy, and stuff like that?
>
>Or would you rather attach this to the Administrator role? What would
>the risks of that be, with... <ahemahem> certain administrators whose
>neutrality have been questioned of late?
>
Well, naturally that will lead to people patrolling the un-trusted
mentors to make sure that the areas they're responsible for covering are
being handled "properly". Dr. Seuss wrote an entertaining bit about the
fictional residents of Hawtch-Hawtch, who assign someone to watch a bee
work. When the bee's work doesn't improve, they have someone watch the
bee-watcher, and then someone watches the bee-watcher-watcher, and so
forth. Given the predilection so many of us have for looking over other
people's shoulders to check their work, it seems that we're headed down
that path.

So, a word to the wise for the developers - don't delude yourselves that
coding this kind of feature will ever satisfy people. They'll just want
you to duplicate the work again later, one step higher in the food chain.

Mentoring is _very_ different from monitoring.

--Michael Snow
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list: foundation-l

from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Meeting in Paris

body:
Hi all,

Here is the program of the meeting in Paris, also available at
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip?dia:Rencontre_Paris_juillet_2004

11 am : Press conference with a few journalistes (4 are already confirmed),
with Jimmy Wales, Angela, Anthere, Yann and may be a few more Wikipedians.

12 am : Aperitif and lunch

2:30 pm : Speech by Jean-Baptiste Soufron, on law related questions with
Wikipedia in France, and exchange between particpants on the subject.

3:30 pm : Presentation of the Wikimedia Foundation by Anthere

4 pm : Presentation of the French chapter bylaws and the planning of
organisation set-up by Yann, and exchange between particpants on the subject,
and then vote for the piloting committe.

5 pm : Vote counting and creation of the piloting committe

6 pm : Speech by Jimmy Wales to close the meeting

There will be audio streaming (and *maybe* video). Nevertheless video will be
available after via bittorrent.

All Wikipedians are welcome, but please book yourselves here before:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip?dia:Rencontre_Paris_juillet_2004/Inscriptions

Best wishes,
Yann Forget

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Meeting in Paris


subject: [WikiEN-l] Like fun?

body:
The Trolls.

Fred

> From: Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:14:58 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Like fun?
>
> Who announced that their purpose was to disrupt
> Wikipedia?
> Mark


from_name: Keith Maxwell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocking Policy - ban of IP address 203.166.76.237

body:
Folks,

I have been a member of WIkipedia forp approximately five months under the username capitalistroadster. On Wednesday night and Friday night Eastern Australia I attempted to create an article only to be advised that I had been blocked by administrator 21804 for vandalism. As I have not been warned for vandalism at any time, I can only assume that it was for the IP address 203.166.76.237 listed on the message.

A quick viewing of the blocked list shows that a user with a similar IP address has been blocked for six months for repeated vandalism. I do not dispute that this user should be banned for a lengthy period for acts which were obviously serious and repeated vandalism on behalf of that person or persons.

I am concerned that on the face of it, I will also be banned for six months. While there has been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to edit for the misbehaviour for this person, I was happy to wear it and resume editing when the ban had expired.

 Is there any way that I can change my IP address so that I edit again before 2005? What processes can legitimate users have when a person with a similar IP address use to change the problems in order to avoid being caught when a lengthy ban is put in place?

Thank you for your consideration of my concerns.

---------------------------------
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from_name: Phil Sandifer

body:
I'm not saying ban without reading the edit history. I'm saying that,
if the edit history is as described, that, combined with the other
evidence that already exists (Similarity if names, timing of arrival,
similarity of politics, unusually high knowledge of how Wikipedia
works), is, in my mind, grounds for a ban. If the edit history is not
as described, that's another story. But IP evidence is really neither
here nor there. So many Wikipedia vandals use IP spoofing at this point
it's not funny. (To say nothing of the fact that IP evidence is really
hard to gather.)

My feeling is that if God or Jimbo had meant for us to use IP evidence
as the final arbiter of sockpuppet banning, he'd have given sysops the
ability to look at IPs. Lacking that, I think we can look at the rest
of the evidence and make a pretty good call. Everything except the edit
history says ban to me. I don't know about the edit history. Somebody
else want to chime in?

-Snowspinner

On Jul 2, 2004, at 3:43 PM, Mark Richards wrote:

> I don't think this is a good idea. Banning someone
> because you don't have the patience to look at edit
> histories isn't the kind of thing we need. IP
> addresses are usually accepted as evidence in this
> case, and since this user has done nothing wrong, it
> seems crazy to try to block him. This is the kind of
> baiting that leads to more conflict. The user is using
> the term troll to declare his politics about
> Wikipedia, but that in itself is not a good reason to
> ban him.
> Mark
>
>
> --- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> I think it's probably beside the point - IP
>> addresses can be spoofed.
>> If it were the same, it would be proof. If it's
>> different, it doesn't
>> show anything one way or another.
>>
>> I've not got the time or patience to go digging into
>> the edit histories
>> for similarities, but if the alleged similarities
>> exist, I'd have no
>> problem with a swift ban for reincarnation.
>>
>> But, then, I've got minimal patience for people who
>> don't appear to be
>> editing in good faith. This user is admitting on his
>> userpage that he
>> is a troll, in the tradition of a number of other
>> banned trolls. This
>> is not good faith. No deep philosophical debate
>> needed here.
>>
>> -Snowspinner
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2004, at 1:36 AM, Michael Snow wrote:
>>
>>> He has an IP address of 217.26.162.142 listed on
>> his user page. Would
>>> one of the developers mind checking out whether
>> that matches up to
>>> EntmootsOfTrolls or JRR Trollkien?
>>>
>>> --Michael Snow
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>>
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
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> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Meeting in Paris


subject: [WikiEN-l] proposal: rename "Votes for deletion" to "Triage"

body:
Folks,

I think this is a useful suggestion but I think we need to have the opportunity to say why the article has been rated so we can see the justification.

Regards

Keith

Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
Robert Dodier wrote

> It turns out that VfD is used as a general forum to
> determine what to do with an article. Deletion is an
> option but redirect, cleanup, & copyvio are used as well.
> So I suggest renaming "Votes for deletion" to "Triage".

It's more like a filter, in a way. I don't have an immediate answer to the
VfD issue. I'd prefer it divided into some rough categories, by topic area.
I can see that this goes against the idea that it should be run as a
rough-and-ready democratic forum. I also think WP could move to more
explicit page-rating levels, with say 1 = good stub, 5 = featured article.
This allows level 0 = serious need of clean-up, -1 for delete if not quickly
salvaged, -2 = rapid delete.

Charles

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
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http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

---------------------------------
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from_name: Mark Richards

subject: [WikiEN-l] Like fun?

body:
Erm? I assume you're joking?

--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> The Trolls.
>
> Fred
>
> > From: Mark Richards <marich712000 at yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:14:58 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Like fun?
> >
> > Who announced that their purpose was to disrupt
> > Wikipedia?
> > Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


body:
Well, it seems to me that the edit history is the only
really important thing. I don't see any reason to ban
on the basis of the bits I've seen, although
admitedly, I have not examined every one. Perhaps
someone wants to  present some compelling evidence?
Mark

--- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I'm not saying ban without reading the edit history.
> I'm saying that,
> if the edit history is as described, that, combined
> with the other
> evidence that already exists (Similarity if names,
> timing of arrival,
> similarity of politics, unusually high knowledge of
> how Wikipedia
> works), is, in my mind, grounds for a ban. If the
> edit history is not
> as described, that's another story. But IP evidence
> is really neither
> here nor there. So many Wikipedia vandals use IP
> spoofing at this point
> it's not funny. (To say nothing of the fact that IP
> evidence is really
> hard to gather.)
>
> My feeling is that if God or Jimbo had meant for us
> to use IP evidence
> as the final arbiter of sockpuppet banning, he'd
> have given sysops the
> ability to look at IPs. Lacking that, I think we can
> look at the rest
> of the evidence and make a pretty good call.
> Everything except the edit
> history says ban to me. I don't know about the edit
> history. Somebody
> else want to chime in?
>
> -Snowspinner
>
> On Jul 2, 2004, at 3:43 PM, Mark Richards wrote:
>
> > I don't think this is a good idea. Banning someone
> > because you don't have the patience to look at
> edit
> > histories isn't the kind of thing we need. IP
> > addresses are usually accepted as evidence in this
> > case, and since this user has done nothing wrong,
> it
> > seems crazy to try to block him. This is the kind
> of
> > baiting that leads to more conflict. The user is
> using
> > the term troll to declare his politics about
> > Wikipedia, but that in itself is not a good reason
> to
> > ban him.
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > --- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> I think it's probably beside the point - IP
> >> addresses can be spoofed.
> >> If it were the same, it would be proof. If it's
> >> different, it doesn't
> >> show anything one way or another.
> >>
> >> I've not got the time or patience to go digging
> into
> >> the edit histories
> >> for similarities, but if the alleged similarities
> >> exist, I'd have no
> >> problem with a swift ban for reincarnation.
> >>
> >> But, then, I've got minimal patience for people
> who
> >> don't appear to be
> >> editing in good faith. This user is admitting on
> his
> >> userpage that he
> >> is a troll, in the tradition of a number of other
> >> banned trolls. This
> >> is not good faith. No deep philosophical debate
> >> needed here.
> >>
> >> -Snowspinner
> >>
> >> On Jul 2, 2004, at 1:36 AM, Michael Snow wrote:
> >>
> >>> He has an IP address of 217.26.162.142 listed on
> >> his user page. Would
> >>> one of the developers mind checking out whether
> >> that matches up to
> >>> EntmootsOfTrolls or JRR Trollkien?
> >>>
> >>> --Michael Snow
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >>>
> >>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Philip Newton

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Nested lists, a small parser bug

references:
<cc1uht$or8$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20040701233024.8B80F1AC0328@mail.wikimedia.org>
	<cc2hbs$l07$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:29:58 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:

> I'm pretty sure it is invalid HTML to put a UL directly
> inside a UL without an LI in between.

That is my understanding, too.

Cheers,
Philip


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Number of watchers of an article

body:
Marco-
> during a Wikipedia meeting in the city of Hannover we discussed about review
> systems for Wikipedia and similar things. Someone asked if it would be
> possible to show on each article page how many users have this article on
> their watchlist.

In a simple implementation, one might just retrieve a list of 100
unwatched articles. Then it should be fairly easy for regular Wikipedians
to gradually distribute our current set of 300K pages among, say, 1000
people to make sure that every page is watched by someone.

Unfortunately, on the English Wikipedia that would include the 30K Rambot
entries. One of the many reasons I think that bot-created entries are a
bad idea is that people don't feel a connection to them, and hence no
responsibility to make sure that they're in a good state.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
Are you saying that you think that Wikipedia SHOULD be a vehicle for hate speech?  Or are you saying that the things the WHEELER wrote are not hate speech?

RickK

Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- "steven l. rubenstein" wrote:
> I just don't want to see
> someone
> use Wikipedia as a vehicle for hate speech.

Your POV.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Number of watchers of an article

body:
The info you are requesting will buy you nothing.  Even if you know the
article was accessed by a watcher after the last edit you cannot be
sure he read it and corrected errors.  database wise it should be
simple to implement and since only some numbers are involved, the
operation should eat that much resources if properly done.

--
                                                         |      ,__o
                                                         |    _-\_<,
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Eric B. Rakim

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Jason Marshall

body:
> > But I have to respectfully disagree with both of you here-- do you
>really
> > want to forbid newbies from contributing to anything controversial?
>
>No.  Where you went wrong - i.e. put yourself in a false position - was to
>persist in editing.  You may not have known what rule you were infringing,
>but there is a rule.  You were then blocked, I assume for 24 hours, which
>except for Wikiholics is hardly the end of the world.  You don't have to
>like it.
>
>What I'm pointing out here is that there is a learning curve.  The point
>about going straight for the most contentious topics is that the learning
>curve is going to be very steep.  One can figure out why this must be.
>_Every_ non-wiki technical person I have explained wiki to, has explained
>back 'can't possibly work'.  They are confident that a free-for-all in
>editing must be a disaster.  Wikipedia shows they are missing something.
>They are missing the community self-policing effect.  If a wiki works - not
>all do - the policing of graffiti on [[Ronald Reagan]] is going to be
>effective.
>
>Now your version of the learning curve may seem to be 'your rights and how
>to get them'.  The system is set up so this is secondary to 'freedom to
>edit'.  Has to be that way.  You'd do better to learn something about
>editing, in the shallower waters.

This time, you're so full of it. What learning curve? Learn that some ******
abuse their power to get their will through? Newbie didn't do anything
special except to make a very truthfull addition to a page and was harassed
by two reaganite sysops. Neither did newbie break any rule and shouldn't be
banned. In fact, since neither of them has apologised yet and continue to
act like pussies I suggest both of them should be banned for 24 hours. It's
hardly the end of the world. They don't have to like it.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


subject: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Multiple categories

body:
Jens Frank wrote:

>On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 01:16:43AM +0200, Nikola Smolenski wrote:
>
>
>>----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
>>
>>Subject: [Wikitech-l] Multiple categories
>>Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 12:07:09 +0200
>>From: Nikola Smolenski <smolensk at EUnet.yu>
>>To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>
>>I have made a patch which enables display of all articles that belong to
>>multiple categories. Thus, for example, Category:Female/Orthodox/Saint would
>>return all female orthodox saints (that is, all articles which are
>>categorised with at least [[Category:Female]], [[Category:Orthodox]] and
>>[[Category:Saint]]).
>>
>>
>
>There are several category names with a / in some languages:
>
>==en==
>+----------------------------+
>| 9/11                       |
>| 9/11_Commission            |
>| AC/DC                      |
>| AC/DC_albums               |
>| HIV/AIDS                   |
>| Hebrew_Bible/Tanakh        |
>| Hebrew_Bible/Tanakh_people |
>| Hebrew_Bible/Tanakh_places |
>| Jewish_texts/Ketuvim       |
>| Jewish_texts/Nevi'im       |
>+----------------------------+
>
>==de==
>+-------------------------------------+
>| Deutsche/r                          |
>| Deutsche/r_Schriftsteller/in        |
>| Nationalpark_in_Australien/Ozeanien |
>| Romanist/in                         |
>| Sportturnier_/_-wettbewerb          |
>+-------------------------------------+
>
>==da==
>+----------------------+
>| Blomster_i_april/maj |
>| Blomster_i_maj/juni  |
>+----------------------+
>
>Those would be broken by your patch.
>
These are very few.  Could these diagonals be replaced by something else
in the category names, and the diagonal otherwise disallowed in category
titles?

Ec


body:
Kurt Jansson wrote:

> Timwi schrieb:
>
>> Marco Krohn wrote:
>>
>>> one of the big problems of Wikipedia is that when you read an
>>> article in Wikipedia you never can be sure if the page was
>>> vandalized a short time before you arrived.
>>
>> Huh? Yes you can. You look at the history.
>
> What if you see that someone changed "1904" to "1905" in a biography a
> week ago. Is it vandalism, or is it a correction?

One can't tell on the face of it.  On the [[Fidel Castro]] article his
birth year is periodically changed between 1926 and 1927, presumably
becaus the sources vary.  This should be a relatively uncontroversial
fact in a biography for a controversial person.  If I assume good faith
both parties probably think they are making a correction, and are
getting their information from different sources.  The sources probably
need to be tracked down, and documented.

Ec


from_name: Slow Poke

body:
On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:47:58 +0200, Kurt Jansson <jansson at gmx.net> wrote:
> Timwi schrieb:
> > Marco Krohn wrote:
> >
> >> one of the big problems of Wikipedia is that when you read an article
> >> in Wikipedia you never can be sure if the page was vandalized a short
> >> time before you arrived.
> >
> > Huh? Yes you can. You look at the history.
>
> What if you see that someone changed "1904" to "1905" in a biography a week ago.
> Is it vandalism, or is it a correction?
>
> Kurt

A hard banned user is fond of doing this sort of thing. In that case
it's most definitely vandalism. There is no way to tell without
verifying it. That's why on en we have [[en:Wikipedia:RC patrol]]

slowpoke

>
> --
>   http://leihnetzwerk.de -- Teile B?cher, Videos und CDs mit anderen!
>   http://wikipedia.de    -- Arbeite mit bei der freien Enzyklop?die!
>   Kurt Jansson, Wiener Str. 7, 10999 Berlin, http://jansson.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Spoofed IP address

body:
I'm assuming I should have used "One can use an IP proxy" then? Or did
I dream the several occasions we've had problems with anonymous proxies
being used to vandalize Wikipedia?

-Snowspinner

On Jul 3, 2004, at 6:39 AM, Timwi wrote:

> Phil Sandifer wrote:
>
>> IP addresses can be spoofed.
>
> Not really. You can spoof an IP address in an IP packet, but since you
> won't receive the reply, you can't establish a TCP connection with a
> spoofed IP address, and therefore you cannot edit Wikipedia with a
> spoofed IP address.
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Hendrik Brummermann

subject: [Wikitech-l] [Patch] Moving password-check to User.php

body:
Hello,

the password-check is currently done in "SpecialUserLogin.php" and
"SpecialPreferences.php". This patch moves the code to a new method in
User.php. This make it easier to hack a different authentication
mechanism in local installs of the Wikimedia software.
I removed the methods User->getPassword and User->getNewpassword because
they are not used any more by the Wikimedia code.

Hendrik
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from_name: Jens Frank

subject: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Multiple categories

body:
On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 01:16:43AM +0200, Nikola Smolenski wrote:
>
>
> ----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
>
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] Multiple categories
> Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 12:07:09 +0200
> From: Nikola Smolenski <smolensk at EUnet.yu>
> To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org>
>
> I have made a patch which enables display of all articles that belong to
> multiple categories. Thus, for example, Category:Female/Orthodox/Saint would
> return all female orthodox saints (that is, all articles which are
> categorised with at least [[Category:Female]], [[Category:Orthodox]] and
> [[Category:Saint]]).

There are several category names with a / in some languages:

==en==
+----------------------------+
| 9/11                       |
| 9/11_Commission            |
| AC/DC                      |
| AC/DC_albums               |
| HIV/AIDS                   |
| Hebrew_Bible/Tanakh        |
| Hebrew_Bible/Tanakh_people |
| Hebrew_Bible/Tanakh_places |
| Jewish_texts/Ketuvim       |
| Jewish_texts/Nevi'im       |
+----------------------------+

==de==
+-------------------------------------+
| Deutsche/r                          |
| Deutsche/r_Schriftsteller/in        |
| Nationalpark_in_Australien/Ozeanien |
| Romanist/in                         |
| Sportturnier_/_-wettbewerb          |
+-------------------------------------+

==da==
+----------------------+
| Blomster_i_april/maj |
| Blomster_i_maj/juni  |
+----------------------+

Those would be broken by your patch.

Regards,

	JeLuF


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Foundation-l] NEH grant

body:
As you may know, a number of us are trying to get  a two-year NEH grant for
the Wikimedia Foundation. This is a grant for anything from $80-700,000 for the
development of resource materials. Gentgeen has spoken with them, they are
familiar with Wikipedia, and they encouraged us to apply for the grant.

We are asking for $500,000. This is a lot of money, but we believe that it
will cover our operating costs for 2 years, including the purchase of new
servers, etc. We can do some amazing things with half a million dollars, and really
help Wikipedia and the other projects to soar.

To do this, however, requires a lot of help. The grant deadline is July 15,
and it is already July 3. It must be in their office by then, so that means it
will have to go out by Fedex from somewhere by July 13 at the latest. The
proposal is complicated, and requires all sorts of documentation. No one will just
give us money for the asking, and the complete proposal has to be written and
approved by the community.

That said, I appeal to everyone to give us a hand with this. Pick a section
you want to write or edit, submit ideas, help Mav with the budget, argue about
it, discuss it. This is a chance to take Wikipedia to an exciting new stage,
and it is one that we should not miss.

For more information, a good place to start is:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEH_Reference_materials_grant_application

Looking forward to your insights and contributions to this effort,

Danny
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subject: [Foundation-l] NEH grant

body:
As you may know, a number of us are trying to get  a two-year NEH grant for
the Wikimedia Foundation. This is a grant for anything from $80-700,000 for the
development of resource materials. Gentgeen has spoken with them, they are
familiar with Wikipedia, and they encouraged us to apply for the grant.

We are asking for $500,000. This is a lot of money, but we believe that it
will cover our operating costs for 2 years, including the purchase of new
servers, etc. We can do some amazing things with half a million dollars, and really
help Wikipedia and the other projects to soar.

To do this, however, requires a lot of help. The grant deadline is July 15,
and it is already July 3. It must be in their office by then, so that means it
will have to go out by Fedex from somewhere by July 13 at the latest. The
proposal is complicated, and requires all sorts of documentation. No one will just
give us money for the asking, and the complete proposal has to be written and
approved by the community.

That said, I appeal to everyone to give us a hand with this. Pick a section
you want to write or edit, submit ideas, help Mav with the budget, argue about
it, discuss it. This is a chance to take Wikipedia to an exciting new stage,
and it is one that we should not miss.

For more information, a good place to start is:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEH_Reference_materials_grant_application

Looking forward to your insights and contributions to this effort,

Danny
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subject: [Foundation-l] NEH grant

body:
As you may know, a number of us are trying to get  a two-year NEH grant for
the Wikimedia Foundation. This is a grant for anything from $80-700,000 for the
development of resource materials. Gentgeen has spoken with them, they are
familiar with Wikipedia, and they encouraged us to apply for the grant.

We are asking for $500,000. This is a lot of money, but we believe that it
will cover our operating costs for 2 years, including the purchase of new
servers, etc. We can do some amazing things with half a million dollars, and really
help Wikipedia and the other projects to soar.

To do this, however, requires a lot of help. The grant deadline is July 15,
and it is already July 3. It must be in their office by then, so that means it
will have to go out by Fedex from somewhere by July 13 at the latest. The
proposal is complicated, and requires all sorts of documentation. No one will just
give us money for the asking, and the complete proposal has to be written and
approved by the community.

That said, I appeal to everyone to give us a hand with this. Pick a section
you want to write or edit, submit ideas, help Mav with the budget, argue about
it, discuss it. This is a chance to take Wikipedia to an exciting new stage,
and it is one that we should not miss.

For more information, a good place to start is:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEH_Reference_materials_grant_application

Looking forward to your insights and contributions to this effort,

Danny
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subject: [Foundation-l] NEH grant

body:
As you may know, a number of us are trying to get  a two-year NEH grant for
the Wikimedia Foundation. This is a grant for anything from $80-700,000 for the
development of resource materials. Gentgeen has spoken with them, they are
familiar with Wikipedia, and they encouraged us to apply for the grant.

We are asking for $500,000. This is a lot of money, but we believe that it
will cover our operating costs for 2 years, including the purchase of new
servers, etc. We can do some amazing things with half a million dollars, and really
help Wikipedia and the other projects to soar.

To do this, however, requires a lot of help. The grant deadline is July 15,
and it is already July 3. It must be in their office by then, so that means it
will have to go out by Fedex from somewhere by July 13 at the latest. The
proposal is complicated, and requires all sorts of documentation. No one will just
give us money for the asking, and the complete proposal has to be written and
approved by the community.

That said, I appeal to everyone to give us a hand with this. Pick a section
you want to write or edit, submit ideas, help Mav with the budget, argue about
it, discuss it. This is a chance to take Wikipedia to an exciting new stage,
and it is one that we should not miss.

For more information, a good place to start is:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEH_Reference_materials_grant_application

Looking forward to your insights and contributions to this effort,

Danny
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from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
Well, the combination of
* the number of watchers and
* the time passed since the last edit
could give an indication that the article is more reliable than the
average wikipedia article. An article that is watched by 2 people as
wasn't edited for a week should be OK, as well as one watched by 10
people with the last edit 2 days ago. Also, the ratio of total number of
edits per "article existence" could give a clue - an article that has
been edited a lot is more likely to have evolved to something reliable.

Articles deemed "reliable" by such a system could display an icon, like
a greenlight or something. Of course, I'm aware that it would miss many
reliable articles, and deem some crappy ones reliable. A manual approval
system would be a lot better in results, but more work.

Magnus

Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>The info you are requesting will buy you nothing.  Even if you know the
>article was accessed by a watcher after the last edit you cannot be
>sure he read it and corrected errors.  database wise it should be
>simple to implement and since only some numbers are involved, the
>operation should eat that much resources if properly done.
>
>
>


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Fwd: Multiple categories

body:
Jens Frank wrote:

> There are several category names with a / in some languages:

Although some of them really really need to be renamed ("9/11" should be
"September 11, 2001 attacks"; "Deutsche/r" should be "Deutsche(r)"),
some are valid (e.g. "Sportturnier / -wettbewerb").

It seems that the pipe ("|") character is disallowed in our article
titles (and hence, in categories too), but allowed in URLs (I couldn't
find the relevant RfC on this for definite confirmation; can someone
find it?). How about we use that instead?

Of course, the problem with that is that we can't link to combined
categories. Any alternative suggestions are welcome.

Index: includes/Parser.php
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/Parser.php,v
retrieving revision 1.135
diff -u -r1.135 Parser.php
--- includes/Parser.php	15 May 2004 00:29:07 -0000	1.135
+++ includes/Parser.php	3 Jul 2004 10:49:33 -0000
@@ -318,7 +318,25 @@

  		# FIXME: add limits
  		$t = wfStrencode( $this->mTitle->getDBKey() );
-		$sql = "SELECT DISTINCT cur_title,cur_namespace FROM
cur,categorylinks WHERE cl_to='$t' AND cl_from=cur_id ORDER BY cl_sortkey" ;
+		$t = preg_replace("'\\|\\|+'","|",$t);
+		if(strchr($t,"|")) {
+			$ta = explode("|",$t);
+			$tt = "cur c";
+			$tw = "";
+
+			$i = 0;
+			foreach($ta as $v) {
+				$tt .= ", categorylinks cl$i";
+				if ($tw != "") { $tw .= " AND "; }
+				$tw .= "cl$i.cl_to='$v' AND cl$i.cl_from=c.cur_id";
+				$i++;
+			}
+			$sql = "SELECT DISTINCT c.cur_title, c.cur_namespace FROM $tt " .
+					" WHERE $tw ORDER BY cl0.cl_sortkey";
+		} else {
+			$sql = "SELECT DISTINCT c.cur_title, c.cur_namespace FROM cur c,
categorylinks cl " .
+					" WHERE cl.cl_to='$t' AND cl.cl_from=c.cur_id ORDER BY
cl.cl_sortkey" ;
+		}
  		$res = wfQuery ( $sql, DB_READ ) ;
  		while ( $x = wfFetchObject ( $res ) ) $data[] = $x ;


references:
<cc1uht$or8$1@sea.gmane.org>	<20040701233024.8B80F1AC0328@mail.wikimedia.org>	<cc2hbs$l07$1@sea.gmane.org>	<kogbe0hr5cgb8bgr3i0rkkopv56p8enkes@4ax.com>
	<40E5D659.8030108@pobox.com>

body:
If I remember correctly, my C++ parser ("waikiki" package in CVS) does
this correctly. It remembers the list state of the last line parsed ("*"
or "###" or ...), then
1. falls back with "

" (or the like) to the current level, if
necessary
2. adds new "

" (or the like) to reach the current level, if
necessary
I also should handle mixed lists correctly ("**", then "###").

Those who dare read C++, have a look! :-)

Magnus

Brion Vibber wrote:

> Philip Newton wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:29:58 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm pretty sure it is invalid HTML to put a UL directly inside a UL
>>> without an LI in between.
>>
>>
>>
>> That is my understanding, too.
>
>
> We went through this question a couple years ago and, yes, that's
> illegal. The correct way to nest is like this:
>
> * Item
> ** Subitem
>
>

>

>     Item
>

>
Subitem

>

>

>

>
> Obviously this isn't very forgiving to skipping levels.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at Wikipedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


body:
Marco Krohn wrote:

> one of the big problems of Wikipedia
> is that when you read an article in Wikipedia you never can be sure if the
> page was vandalized a short time before you arrived.

Huh? Yes you can. You look at the history.

Admittedly, people don't tend to do that unless they (a) know Wikipedia
and how it works, and (b) have reason to believe that the article might
be a in vandalised state.

Timwi


subject: [WikiEN-l] Spoofed IP address

body:
Phil Sandifer wrote:

> IP addresses can be spoofed.

Not really. You can spoof an IP address in an IP packet, but since you
won't receive the reply, you can't establish a TCP connection with a
spoofed IP address, and therefore you cannot edit Wikipedia with a
spoofed IP address.

Timwi


from_name: C A S [name omitted for privacy reasons]

from_email: a

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Hephaestos must be desysoped

body:
Since no effort was made to address my previous ban, in which Guanaco banned me because he felt that I was User:Yuna (despite having no evidence to support his claim) -- now, I have been banned again, for an even less reasonable reason. Such is the slippery slope, no? Hephaestos has now banned me. without giving any reason, except that I have "admitted to trolling" -- whatever that could mean. The ban is for 30 days.
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from_name: Kurt Jansson

body:
Timwi schrieb:
> Marco Krohn wrote:
>
>> one of the big problems of Wikipedia is that when you read an article
>> in Wikipedia you never can be sure if the page was vandalized a short
>> time before you arrived.
>
> Huh? Yes you can. You look at the history.

What if you see that someone changed "1904" to "1905" in a biography a week ago.
Is it vandalism, or is it a correction?

Kurt

--
  http://leihnetzwerk.de -- Teile B?cher, Videos und CDs mit anderen!
  http://wikipedia.de    -- Arbeite mit bei der freien Enzyklop?die!
  Kurt Jansson, Wiener Str. 7, 10999 Berlin, http://jansson.de


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] NEH grant

body:
--- daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:
> As you may know, a number of us are trying to get  a two-year NEH grant for
> the Wikimedia Foundation. This is a grant for anything from $80-700,000 for
> the
> development of resource materials. Gentgeen has spoken with them, they are
> familiar with Wikipedia, and they encouraged us to apply for the grant.
>
> We are asking for $500,000. This is a lot of money, but we believe that it
> will cover our operating costs for 2 years, including the purchase of new
> servers, etc. We can do some amazing things with half a million dollars, and
> really
> help Wikipedia and the other projects to soar.
>
> To do this, however, requires a lot of help. The grant deadline is July 15,
> and it is already July 3. It must be in their office by then, so that means
> it
> will have to go out by Fedex from somewhere by July 13 at the latest. The
> proposal is complicated, and requires all sorts of documentation. No one will
> just
> give us money for the asking, and the complete proposal has to be written and
>
> approved by the community.
>
> That said, I appeal to everyone to give us a hand with this. Pick a section
> you want to write or edit, submit ideas, help Mav with the budget, argue
> about
> it, discuss it. This is a chance to take Wikipedia to an exciting new stage,
> and it is one that we should not miss.
>
> For more information, a good place to start is:
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEH_Reference_materials_grant_application
>
> Looking forward to your insights and contributions to this effort,

I'll work on a 2 year budget as soon as I return from Twin Falls, Idaho on July
6. It will be tight but I think it is doable. In the meantime the community can
work on some additional notes at
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_budget

-- mav

__________________________________________________
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subject: [Foundation-l] NEH grant


subject: [Wikipedia-l] HCheney must also be desysoped

body:
a.. 19:22, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guanaco> unblocked "Lir" (clearly a violation of policy)
a.. 19:14, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hcheney> blocked "Lir" with an expiry time of 30 days (reinstating Hephaestos' block)
a.. 19:03, 3 Jul 2004 MyRedDice<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MyRedDice> unblocked "Lir" (not unilateral any more then)
a.. 18:57, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hcheney> blocked "Bird" with an expiry time of indefinite (reverting Guanaco's unilateral unblocking of Bird)
a.. 18:56, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hcheney> blocked "Lir" with an expiry time of 30 days (reverting Guanaco's unblocking of Lir, reinstating Hephaestos' block of 30 days - Guanaco please stop acting unilaterally)
a.. 18:25, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guanaco> unblocked "Bird" (Read the blocking policy on vandals - this account hasn't been used for vandalism and Bird isn't hard banned.)
a.. 18:24, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guanaco> blocked "LordZarglif555" with an expiry time of indefinite (RiShArThA vandal)
a.. 18:22, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guanaco> unblocked "#6668" (block that created this autoblock was against policy)
a.. 18:22, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guanaco> unblocked "LordZarglif555" (reblocking indefinitely - was blocked twice)
a.. 18:21, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guanaco> unblocked "Lir" (Lir didn't actually admit to trolling. He just said "Trolling is not a valid reason to oppose sysophood". )
a.. 17:37, 3 Jul 2004 David Gerard<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:David_Gerard> blocked "217.43.47.198" with an expiry time of 24 hours (repeated vandalism of [[Steve Jobs]])
a.. 17:30, 3 Jul 2004 AndyL<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AndyL> blocked "AndyL" with an expiry time of 10 days (self-block: need to finish non-wiki work)
a.. 15:41, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hcheney> blocked "Michael" with an expiry time of indefinite (Reverting Guanaco's unbanning of hard banned user Michael)
a.. 15:38, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hcheney> blocked "Bird" with an expiry time of indefinite (Bird - need I say more?)
a.. 15:34, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hcheney> blocked "LordZarglif555" with an expiry time of indefinite (Revert Guanaco's unblock - Bird sockpuppet)
a.. 15:16, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hcheney> blocked "Ragn?rok" with an expiry time of indefinite (EntmootsOfTrolls -- hard banned user)
a.. 07:07, 3 Jul 2004 Maximus Rex<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Maximus_Rex> blocked "61.11.86.213" with an expiry time of 24 hours (SEO spam)
a.. 06:11, Jul 3, 2004 RickK<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RickK> blocked "Michael's vandalism" with an expiry time of indefinite (EntmootsOfTrolls -- hard banned user)
a.. 05:45, Jul 3, 2004 RickK<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RickK> blocked "219.125.124.132" with an expiry time of 24 hours (repeated vandalism of [[Rich]])
a.. 05:44, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guanaco> blocked "I have to pee" with an expiry time of 04:51 2 Aug 2004 ([[User:Michael]])
a.. 05:43, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guanaco> unblocked "I have to pee" (reblocking (was accidentally blocked 3 times))
a.. 05:22, 3 Jul 2004 Hephaestos<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hephaestos> blocked "Lir" with an expiry time of 30 days (Admitting to trolling)
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from_name: steven l. rubenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
Either I misunderstand the purpose of the list-serve, or I misunderstand
Chris Mahan.  I thought the purpose of the listserve.  I thought one of the
purposes was to promote open dialogue about policy.  I assume that dialogue
involves sharing and discussing values, principles, and methods from
different points of view.  I took it for granted that any posting to the
listserve reflects the author's point of view, and I assumed that it was
not only alright but valuable that I present my own point of view.  This is
what I was doing when I wrote:

> >  I just don't want to see
> > someone
> > use Wikipedia as a vehicle for hate speech.

So frankly, I do not understand Chris Mahan's response:

>Your POV.

Of course it is my point of view.  From context, CM seems to be suggesting
that it is not valid because it is my point of view.  Why not?  I don't get it.

Earlier, CM or someone else suggested that freedom of speech should be one
of my values.  In order to explain why banning anti-Semitism from Wikipedia
would not infringe on freedom of speech, I wrote,

>--- "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste at ohiou.edu> wrote:
> > What WHEELER wrote may very
> > well be
> > legal -- so he can write it elsewhere.

and CM responded,

>Why not here? We're a public forum.

But then CM wrote

>If they're being
>destructive, then ban them.

which is exactly my point.  Hate speech is destructive.  Does this now mean
that CM agrees with me?

Steve

Steven L. Rubenstein
Associate Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Are you saying that you think that Wikipedia SHOULD be a vehicle
> for hate speech?  Or are you saying that the things the WHEELER
> wrote are not hate speech?

Neither

> Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- "steven l. rubenstein" wrote:
> > I just don't want to see
> > someone
> > use Wikipedia as a vehicle for hate speech.
>
> Your POV.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!>
_______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
Then please explain just what it IS that you're saying.

RickK

Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Rick wrote:
> Are you saying that you think that Wikipedia SHOULD be a vehicle
> for hate speech? Or are you saying that the things the WHEELER
> wrote are not hate speech?

Neither

> Christopher Mahan wrote:
> --- "steven l. rubenstein" wrote:
> > I just don't want to see
> > someone
> > use Wikipedia as a vehicle for hate speech.
>
> Your POV.

---------------------------------
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from_name: Peter Jaros

subject: [Foundation-l] Meeting in Paris

body:
On Jul 2, 2004, at 1:20 PM, Yann Forget wrote:

> There will be audio streaming (and *maybe* video). Nevertheless video
> will be
> available after via bittorrent.

Will the working language be English or French?  If French, would it
be possible for someone to do English subtitles on the video?
Actually, I'm sure everyone would appreciate a subtitled version in
their own language.  I just don't know if sure a thing is possible.

Peter

                            -- ---<>--- --
                  A house without walls cannot fall.
     Help build the world's largest encyclopedia at Wikipedia.org
                            -- ---<>--- --


subject: [Foundation-l] Meeting in Paris


subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
--- "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste at ohiou.edu> wrote:
> Either I misunderstand the purpose of the list-serve, or I
> misunderstand
> Chris Mahan.  I thought the purpose of the listserve.  I thought
> one of the
> purposes was to promote open dialogue about policy.  I assume that
> dialogue
> involves sharing and discussing values, principles, and methods
> from
> different points of view.  I took it for granted that any posting
> to the
> listserve reflects the author's point of view, and I assumed that
> it was
> not only alright but valuable that I present my own point of view.

Yes, and this is exactly why it's ok for Wheeler to express
him/herself in this forum in the manner of his choosing.

> This is
> what I was doing when I wrote:
>
> > >  I just don't want to see
> > > someone
> > > use Wikipedia as a vehicle for hate speech.
>
> So frankly, I do not understand Chris Mahan's response:
>
> >Your POV.
>
> Of course it is my point of view.  From context, CM seems to be
> suggesting
> that it is not valid because it is my point of view.  Why not?  I
> don't get it.

It's perfectly valid "as your point of view" but not as "wikipedia
Policy".

> Earlier, CM or someone else suggested that freedom of speech should
> be one
> of my values.  In order to explain why banning anti-Semitism from
> Wikipedia
> would not infringe on freedom of speech, I wrote,
>
> >--- "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste at ohiou.edu> wrote:
> > > What WHEELER wrote may very
> > > well be
> > > legal -- so he can write it elsewhere.
>
> and CM responded,
>
> >Why not here? We're a public forum.
>
> But then CM wrote
>
> >If they're being
> >destructive, then ban them.
>

I did not mean "being destructive" by hurting other people's feelings
and motivation.  I meant it as deleting content or damaging content
in wikipedia articles.

> which is exactly my point.  Hate speech is destructive.  Does this
> now mean
> that CM agrees with me?

I do not think that hate speech is destructive.

I'd rather have someone spew filth out of their mouth in the public
forum (the street, etc) than shoot me and my wife with a pistol.

The reason why I say that hate speech is not destructive is that
speech itself is strictly communicative. When one takes action, then
the actions become punishable. but as long as one just speaks and
DOES NOT ACT, then where's the harm?

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Then please explain just what it IS that you're saying.
>
> RickK
>
> Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Rick wrote:
> > Are you saying that you think that Wikipedia SHOULD be a vehicle
> > for hate speech? Or are you saying that the things the WHEELER
> > wrote are not hate speech?
>
>
> Neither

I am saying that it is ok for anyone to express themselves in any way
they choose to convey their message, be it labeled hate speech or
not.

Should W be a vehicle for hate speech? no. Should hate speech be
allowed? yes. Should it be its sole purpose? No.

The US government is a vehicle of hate speech is you're a
fundamentalist muslim.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
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subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>
>
> > From: Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:00:43 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism
> >
> > I am saying that it is ok for anyone to express themselves in any
> way
> > they choose to convey their message, be it labeled hate speech or
> > not.
>
> This is much more than a matter of labeling or political
> correctness.

Very correct. It is a matter of restricting the right of free speech
of some people to fit the sensitivities of others. Unless a clear
case is made that the public is harmed by actions that result from
such speech, well, it's very dangerous to prohibit it.

> >
> > Should W be a vehicle for hate speech? no. Should hate speech be
> > allowed? yes. Should it be its sole purpose? No.
>
> What I and others are saying is that it should not be allowed.

Again, your position. Until it is agreed as a W policy, it is not a
bannable offense.

> > The US government is a vehicle of hate speech if you're a
> > fundamentalist muslim.
>
> No the US government is not. They have been very careful not to
> broadbrush
> all followers of Islam.

Most followers of islam are not fundamentalists.

>
> Fred

>

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
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body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

[ on categories with / in them ]
> These are very few.  Could these diagonals be replaced by something else
> in the category names, and the diagonal otherwise disallowed in category
> titles?

The "/" is a common/usual punctuation mark, and so should be allowed.
Even if we were to try to discourage its use, people would still create
categories with it because they would think nothing of it.

Hm, I have a new idea, actually. See my posting in a few minutes.

Timwi


from_name: Phil Sandifer

body:
Perhaps this would be better suited

A) To WikiEN
B) To Requests for Review of Administrative Actions?

Just a thought.

-Snowspinner

On Jul 3, 2004, at 2:24 PM, C A S [name omitted for privacy reasons] wrote:

> ? 19:22, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco unblocked "Lir" (clearly a violation of
> policy)
> 19:14, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney blocked "Lir" with an expiry time of 30 days
> (reinstating Hephaestos' block)
> 19:03, 3 Jul 2004 MyRedDice unblocked "Lir"  (not unilateral any more
> then)
> 18:57, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney blocked "Bird" with an expiry time of
> indefinite (reverting Guanaco's unilateral unblocking of Bird)
> 18:56, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney blocked "Lir" with an expiry time of 30 days
> (reverting Guanaco's unblocking of Lir, reinstating Hephaestos' block
> of 30 days - Guanaco please stop acting unilaterally)
> 18:25, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco unblocked "Bird" (Read the blocking policy
> on vandals - this account hasn't been used for vandalism and Bird
> isn't hard banned.)
> 18:24, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco blocked "LordZarglif555" with an expiry time
> of indefinite (RiShArThA vandal)
> 18:22, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco unblocked "#6668" (block that created this
> autoblock was against policy)
> 18:22, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco unblocked "LordZarglif555" (reblocking
> indefinitely - was blocked twice)
> 18:21, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco unblocked "Lir"  (Lir didn't actually admit
> to trolling. He just said "Trolling is not a valid reason to oppose
> sysophood". )
> 17:37, 3 Jul 2004 David Gerard blocked "217.43.47.198" with an expiry
> time of 24 hours (repeated vandalism of [[Steve Jobs]])
> 17:30, 3 Jul 2004 AndyL blocked "AndyL" with an expiry time of 10 days
> (self-block: need to finish non-wiki work)
> 15:41, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney blocked "Michael" with an expiry time of
> indefinite (Reverting Guanaco's unbanning of hard banned user Michael)
> 15:38, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney blocked "Bird" with an expiry time of
> indefinite (Bird - need I say more?)
> 15:34, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney blocked "LordZarglif555" with an expiry time
> of indefinite (Revert Guanaco's unblock - Bird sockpuppet)
> 15:16, 3 Jul 2004 Hcheney blocked "Ragn?rok" with an expiry time of
> indefinite (EntmootsOfTrolls -- hard banned user)
> 07:07, 3 Jul 2004 Maximus Rex blocked "61.11.86.213" with an expiry
> time of 24 hours (SEO spam)
> 06:11, Jul 3, 2004 RickK blocked "Michael's vandalism" with an expiry
> time of indefinite (EntmootsOfTrolls -- hard banned user)
> 05:45, Jul 3, 2004 RickK blocked "219.125.124.132" with an expiry time
> of 24 hours (repeated vandalism of [[Rich]])
> 05:44, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco blocked "I have to pee" with an expiry time
> of 04:51 2 Aug 2004 ([[User:Michael]])
> 05:43, 3 Jul 2004 Guanaco unblocked "I have to pee" (reblocking (was
> accidentally blocked 3 times))
> 05:22, 3 Jul 2004 Hephaestos blocked "Lir" with an expiry time of 30
> days (Admitting to trolling)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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body:
Timwi wrote:

> Jens Frank wrote:
>
>> There are several category names with a / in some languages:
>
> It seems that the pipe ("|") character is disallowed in our article
> titles (and hence, in categories too), but allowed in URLs (I couldn't
> find the relevant RfC on this for definite confirmation; can someone
> find it?). How about we use that instead?

Actually, I have a better idea now. How about two slashes (//)? Then we
can have something like "Category:9/11//People" to have the intersection
of Category:9/11 and Category:People.

Timwi

Index: includes/Parser.php
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/wikipedia/phase3/includes/Parser.php,v
retrieving revision 1.135
diff -u -r1.135 Parser.php
--- includes/Parser.php	15 May 2004 00:29:07 -0000	1.135
+++ includes/Parser.php	3 Jul 2004 16:14:36 -0000
@@ -318,7 +318,25 @@

  		# FIXME: add limits
  		$t = wfStrencode( $this->mTitle->getDBKey() );
-		$sql = "SELECT DISTINCT cur_title,cur_namespace FROM
cur,categorylinks WHERE cl_to='$t' AND cl_from=cur_id ORDER BY cl_sortkey" ;
+		$t = preg_replace("'///+'","//",$t);
+		if(strchr($t,"//")) {
+			$ta = explode("//",$t);
+			$tt = "cur c";
+			$tw = "";
+
+			$i = 0;
+			foreach($ta as $v) {
+				$tt .= ", categorylinks cl$i";
+				if ($tw != "") { $tw .= " AND "; }
+				$tw .= "cl$i.cl_to='$v' AND cl$i.cl_from=c.cur_id";
+				$i++;
+			}
+			$sql = "SELECT DISTINCT c.cur_title, c.cur_namespace FROM $tt " .
+					" WHERE $tw ORDER BY cl0.cl_sortkey";
+		} else {
+			$sql = "SELECT DISTINCT c.cur_title, c.cur_namespace FROM cur c,
categorylinks cl " .
+					" WHERE cl.cl_to='$t' AND cl.cl_from=c.cur_id ORDER BY
cl.cl_sortkey" ;
+		}
  		$res = wfQuery ( $sql, DB_READ ) ;
  		while ( $x = wfFetchObject ( $res ) ) $data[] = $x ;


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
> From: Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:00:43 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism
>
> I am saying that it is ok for anyone to express themselves in any way
> they choose to convey their message, be it labeled hate speech or
> not.

This is much more than a matter of labeling or political correctness.
>
> Should W be a vehicle for hate speech? no. Should hate speech be
> allowed? yes. Should it be its sole purpose? No.

What I and others are saying is that it should not be allowed.

> The US government is a vehicle of hate speech if you're a
> fundamentalist muslim.

No the US government is not. They have been very careful not to broadbrush
all followers of Islam.

Fred


subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
If it is not Wikipedia policy it ought to be. Not sure which page we need to
address this on, but there needs to be policy on this matter.

Fred

> From: Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:57:22 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism
>
> It's perfectly valid "as your point of view" but not as "wikipedia
> Policy".


from_name: Reini Urban

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: extending wiki-syntax

body:
David Iberri wrote:
> --- Reini Urban <rurban at x-ray.at> wrote:
>>Enrico Weigelt wrote:
>>>I'm using a wiki for writing (preparing) articles and several similar
>>>stuff. To make it easier, I'm currently writing an wiki-syntax parser
>>>for my Website-Kit, so it can directly read wiki articles (otherwise
>>>I would have to rewrite it to some XML schema).
>>
>>This already exists:
>>perl  http://search.cpan.org/~diberri/HTML-WikiConverter-0.16/
>
>
> HTML::WikiConverter doesn't fit the bill. It's an html->wiki converter, i.e. it parses the HTML
> source into a tree, then outputs its in equivalent wiki markup. It doesn't do wiki syntax parsing.
>
> -- David Iberri (the module's author)

oops, read it too quick. sorry.

At least some dozen wiki syntax parsers exist.
But I didn't see a real wiki-syntax parser yet. Just a loop with some
kind of magic order of special regex.
Please lets call this transformation, not parsing.


from_name: Nicolas Weeger

subject: [Wikitech-l] Meeting tomorrow in Paris

body:
Hello.

We have a meeting tomorrow in Paris, with Jimbo and probably some
journalists.

So please avoid making the wiki crawl if possible :)
Many thanks

Nicolas 'Ryo'


from_name: Robert

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Ray's anti-Semitic violent attacks on the Jews for not
	forgiving Nazis

body:
Ray's attacks on the Jews for not forgiving Nazis is not
only off-topic, but outrageously hateful. Without any
exagerration, his argument comes directly from Neo-Nazi
websites. This is no joke. Please look at the many Nazi
websites on the Internet; they have precisely the same
argument Ray uses here.

Every mainstream Jewish organization has condemned this
specific argument as anti-Semitism.

Ray writes:
> but militant Jewish organizations continue to insist
> that the matter be continued in the criminal justice
> system.

As opposed to gentiles, who don't enforce the laws of their
nations? In what country? On what planet?

> These very vocal and very public organizations manage
> to promote a public image of Jews as completely
> insensitive and unforgiving.

This is classical Chrisitian anti-Semitism, and has been
used for over 2,000 years to explain why all Jews will burn
in hell. It also paints the victim as evil for the "sin" of
asking that justice be served.

> The same can be said of the Nazi hunters who continue to
> seek punishment on old men 60 years after the fact,
> often at great expense.

There is no time-limit on mass murder and genocide. Members
of my own family were exterminated by the Germans. Why
should people be allowed to get away with rape, slavery and
murder, just because they were lucky enough to evade the
legal authorities at the time? That is a highly immoral
position.

> There comes a time when these events need to be put
> behind us so that everyone can go on with life.

So it would be Ok, if someone here raped and murdered your
mother, raped and killed your sister, and killed your
father and son, and burnt all their bodies in an oven? And
then did this to most of your extended family? You'd
actually argue in public that someone who did such a thing
should be allowed to get away with it, if they evaded the
authorities at the time and lived as a free man until he
was 60? If so, then you are a sick man who needs mental
help, immediately. If not, then you have an anti-Semitic
double standard.

I am disgusted at this pro-Nazi, openly anti-Semitic
vitriol. I am just wondering if anyone here will have the
guts to oppose this violent hatespeech.

Robert Kaiser (RK)

__________________________________
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from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:

> I disagree. Speech can be used as a weapon, and in extreme cases even to
> kill someone.

Please explain to me how speech can kill someone.  For extra credit,
explain how words on a Web page can do any physical harm.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Space isn't remote at all. It's only a
  sean at epoptic.com | couple hours' drive away if your car
                   | could go straight upwards. --Fred Hoyle


subject:
[WikiEN-l] Ray's anti-Semitic violent attacks on the Jews for not
	forgivi...

body:
In a message dated 7/3/2004 9:26:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rkscience100 at yahoo.com writes:
Ray's attacks on the Jews for not forgiving Nazis is not
only off-topic, but outrageously hateful.
Personally, I feel that your response is even more hateful, Robert. Ray
commented on an obervation he makes--whether it is right or wrong is another story,
as is whether the question of anyone can actually give it any absolute moral
score.

It is certainly not hateful. Many Jews including survivors--especially
survivors--debate among themselves whether they are able to forgive the Nazis for
what they did. In his book "The Wallflower," Simon Wiesenthal tells the story of
a sickly SS man who was dying in a concentration camp, and who extended his
hand to the orderly, Wiesenthal, asking for forgiveness with his dying breath.
Wiesenthal refused to give it, but, he writes, the problem plagued him for the
rest of his life. In fact, that is the theme of the book, which includes
essays on that very topic by leading Jewish and non-Jewish intellectuals.
Apparently, Robert, even a Nazi-hunter like Wiesenthal was plagued by the question of
forgiveness, one that you so brusequely dismiss.

This September, the museum where I work is hosting a conference called
"Forgiveness After the Holocaust," which I am helping to organize. At this event,
leading scholars and prominent survivors will share diverse views on the
subject. I actually formulated the four questions that serve as the theme. I dont
remember them all off hand, but they were something to the effect of Can there be
forgiveness? Who can forgive? etc. I would hardly call such a discussion
"outrageously hateful." We are discussing it. Does Ray not have a right to voice
his opinion on it?

While going through some material, I found a proclamation, issued by a woman
who was a victim of Mengele's experiments in Auschwitz. The proclamation was
made in Auschwitz, as she stood beside one of the Nazi doctors who performed
brutal experiments on Jews and others. In the proclamation, she called for
forgiveness, sixty years later. Apparently, a film was made about this too.
Personally, I have ambiguous feelings about her statement, but that does not detract
from the fact that she, a survivor made it. Is that "outrageously hateful"?
Does the fact that the statement appears in the state-mandated Holocaust
curriculum of New Jersey make that curriculum hateful? Does it make New Jersey
hateful?

You ended your post to Ray saying "If so, then you are a sick man who needs
mental help, immediately. If not, then you have an anti-Semitic double
standard." Is the measure of needing mental help (or alternately, being anti-Semitic)
whether that person stands in opposition to you? Is there only one way to view
complex issues and dilemmas? That in itself is a fascistic statement: there
is only one truth, one legitimate perspective, and we must quash everything
that challenges it.

Then you continue: "I am disgusted at this pro-Nazi, openly anti-Semitic
vitriol. I am just wondering if anyone here will have the guts to oppose this
violent hatespeech." I have the guts to oppose this violent hatespeech. Sadly,
however, I see you as being guilty of it.

Danny

PS. Despite your subject line, I am hardpressed to find anything particularly
"violent" in Ray's comment.
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from_name: Eric B. Rakim

subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: WHEELER's anti-semitism

body:
So WHEELER said:

Jewish Communist bastards murdered Christians.

Meaning:

Jewish = murderous
Communist = murderous
Jewish = bastard
Communist = bastard

Meaning communists also have to right to complain against WHEELER's hate for
communists meaning that since its not OK to call jews murderous (ofcourse
it's not!) it's not OK to call communists murderous?

We're OK with that...

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


from_name: Elisabeth Bauer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

> Yes, and this is exactly why it's ok for Wheeler to express
> him/herself in this forum in the manner of his choosing.

It's not okay.

> I did not mean "being destructive" by hurting other people's feelings
> and motivation.  I meant it as deleting content or damaging content
> in wikipedia articles.

Hurting other people's feelings _is_ destructive. Its contributors are
the most valuable part of Wikipedia, and hurting them is damaging to
Wikipedia itself.

> The reason why I say that hate speech is not destructive is that
> speech itself is strictly communicative.

I disagree. Speech can be used as a weapon, and in extreme cases even to
kill someone. And a person saying things like, to use a drastic example,
"in hitler's times you would have been sent to the gas chambers" should
be banned in Wikipedia.

This mailing list has a long history of wrong accusations of
anti-semitism, but that's no reason not to react on real ones.

elian


from_name: Fredrik Johansson

subject: [WikiEN-l] WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
>I'd rather have someone spew filth out of their mouth in the public
>forum (the street, etc) than shoot me and my wife with a pistol.
>
>
How about having neither happen?

>The reason why I say that hate speech is not destructive is that
>speech itself is strictly communicative. When one takes action, then
>the actions become punishable. but as long as one just speaks and
>DOES NOT ACT, then where's the harm?
>
There is _psychological_ harm.

And it not only hurts individuals, it directly affects the community's
functioning. Hate speech, as you say, communicates hate. People who
feel hated experience distress, which reduces their productivity.
In particular, it makes cooperation much harder. And our goal is to
COLLABORATIVELY write an encyclopedia. Hate speech is therefore
directly counter-productive.

--
Fredrik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Who's Ray?

body:
I can find a User:Ray but his only contribution is to his own user page.
What is the user name of the Ray you are complaining off here and on what
Wikipedia article did the things you complain of occur?

Fred

> From: Robert <rkscience100 at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:25:34 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Ray's anti-Semitic violent attacks on the Jews for not
> forgiving Nazis
>
> Ray's attacks on the Jews


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
The words, "Charge!" have worked historically. "Fire!" works well too. The
codes necessary to activate and fire a nuclear missile would better be
described as data. To address the matter at hand, hate speech is the social
equivalent of the crime "inciting to riot". If people believe such things as
the fabrications in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (in general
circulation in some Arab countries) they can be expected to take action.

Fred

> From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> Organization: Boskonia
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:39:23 -0500
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: WHEELER's anti-Semitism
>
> Please explain to me how speech can kill someone.


subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: WHEELER's anti-semitism

body:
This is kind of muddy syntax but no, having met a communist or two, I can
say that "murderous" does not definitively define them however baleful the
historical record. Dumb and Dumber, maybe.

Fred

> From: "Eric B. Rakim" <eric_b_and_rakim at hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 03:11:48 +0000
> To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] RE: WHEELER's anti-semitism
>
> Meaning communists also have to right to complain against WHEELER's hate for
> communists meaning that since its not OK to call jews murderous (ofcourse
> it's not!) it's not OK to call communists murderous?
>
> We're OK with that...


subject: [WikiEN-l] Who's Ray?

body:
Ok, but a look at Eclecticology's user contributions reveals no obvious
Wikipedia article where this all is supposed to have taken place, certainly
not at Fidel Castro...

Fred

From: daniwo59 at aol.com
Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:49:55 EDT
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Who's Ray?

By Ray, RK meant Eclecticology.
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Policy on Hate Speech

body:
It has correctly be pointed out that Wikipedia has no policy which would
authorize a ban for a use of hate speech. The closest policy is at
[[Wikipedia:No personal attacks]]. If you wish to refine this policy to
include hate speech of the sort Wheeler engaged in please join the
discussion regarding hate speech at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks

Fred


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Who's Ray?

body:
By Ray, RK meant Eclecticology.
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: WHEELER's anti-Semitism

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

> The words, "Charge!" have worked historically. "Fire!" works well too. The
> codes necessary to activate and fire a nuclear missile would better be
> described as data. To address the matter at hand, hate speech is the social
> equivalent of the crime "inciting to riot". If people believe such things as
> the fabrications in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (in general
> circulation in some Arab countries) they can be expected to take action.

Close, but no cigar.

"Charge" doesn't kill people, pointy objects held by charging people --
who have free will and are therefore responsibile agents -- kill people.

"Fire" doesn't kill people, boots of panicky people -- who have free
will and are therefore responsibile agents -- kill people.

"The Protocols of Zion" don't kill people, imbeciles who were looking
for a target anyway -- who have free will and are therefore responsibile
agents -- kill people.

I have yet to encounter a sound or a spot of ink on a page that could
cause a human heart to stop beating.  Every counter-example that has
ever been presented to me has involved the intermediation of a
responsible agent.  In short, words don't kill people, people kill
people.  And in my arrogant opinion, blaming a word for a person's
action is cowardly.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Space isn't remote at all. It's only a
  sean at epoptic.com | couple hours' drive away if your car
                   | could go straight upwards. --Fred Hoyle


subject:
[WikiEN-l] in the last year hatespeech seems to have become
	acceptable

body:
Sean B. writes:
> Please explain to me how speech can kill someone.
> For extra credit, explain how words on a Web page can do
> any physical harm.

Do you really not know the answer? Ok, I will answer your
question honestly, and accurately:

Many people used to say and write "I hate the fucking Jews.
Kill the Jews". Then some people did kill Jews.

Many people used to say and write "I hate the fucking
niggers. Kill the niggers". Then some people did kill
blacks.

Many people used to say and write "I hate the fucking
queers. Kill the quuers". Then some people did kill
homosexuals.

Just read the newspapers, and you will see stories of
homosexuals being beaten, assaulted, and even murdered, all
the time. The same is true for Jews; attacks on Jews all
across the world are on the rise. Synagogues are being
burned, Jews are being beaten in the streets, houses are
being covered in Nazi swastikas, etc. This is not
theoretical; this is real. (Even in my hometown a synagogue
was torched.)

In the real world, repeated hateful words often lead to
violent actions. Anyone who claims otherwise is a poor
liar.

The way that Wheeler is attacking SLR is a violation of
SLR's civil rights, and is anti-Semitic in of itself. The
way that Ray is pushing JewWatch neo-Nazi arguments to
slander all Jews is also wrong. Both Wheeler's and Ray's
exact arguments, common on Nazi websites, have as their
goal the advocacy of discrimination towards Jews.

The question is this: Should we allow Wikipedia to deviate
from its original goal (working on a factual, NPOV
encyclopedia)? Should we allow Wikipedia to become a safe
haven for racist hatespeech?  In the past, such speech was
not tolerated at all, and was reason enough for a ban.
Back when Jimbo and Larry were mostly in charge, hatespeech
was off limits.

But in the last year hatespeech seems to have become
acceptable, and those who use it have been rewarded, while
victims of it are attacked. This is a sad turn of events,
and will cause Wikipedia's repuation to suffer terribly.
Already many academics I know view Wikipedia as hopeless;
but if this phenomenon spreads its reputation will be
hopelessly tarnished.

It doesn't matter if the hatespeech is towards Jews,
blacks, homosexuals, Muslims, or anyone else. It has no
place in an encyclopedia project, let alone in a society
where we claim to respect human life.

Robert

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subject:
[WikiEN-l] in the last year hatespeech seems to have
	become	acceptable

body:
Robert wrote:
> Sean B. writes:
>
>>Please explain to me how speech can kill someone.
>>For extra credit, explain how words on a Web page can do
>>any physical harm.
>
>
> Do you really not know the answer? Ok, I will answer your
> question honestly, and accurately:
>
> Many people used to say and write "I hate the fucking Jews.
> Kill the Jews". Then some people did kill Jews.

People?  Wait a minute, we were talking about words killing someone!
Where'd these people come from?

> Many people used to say and write "I hate the fucking
> niggers. Kill the niggers". Then some people did kill
> blacks.

People?  Wait a minute, we were talking about words killing someone!
Where'd these people come from?

> Many people used to say and write "I hate the fucking
> queers. Kill the quuers". Then some people did kill
> homosexuals.

People?  Wait a minute, we were talking about words killing someone!
Where'd these people come from?

> In the real world, repeated hateful words often lead to
> violent actions. Anyone who claims otherwise is a poor
> liar.

Nobody that I know of is claiming that.  The claim was that words alone,
with no help from anyone, were killing people.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Space isn't remote at all. It's only a
  sean at epoptic.com | couple hours' drive away if your car
                   | could go straight upwards. --Fred Hoyle


subject: [WikiEN-l] Mass murder results from exhortation

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:

> Yet suppressing the words works...

...said every tyrant thoughout history.

--
  Sean Barrett     | Space isn't remote at all. It's only a
  sean at epoptic.com | couple hours' drive away if your car
                   | could go straight upwards. --Fred Hoyle


body:
Yet suppressing the words works and people die in bed instead of at hard
labor or as the result of gunshot. Mobs have to be whipped up. Even
cold-blooded killers need a systematic and authoritative guide to action.

Fred

> From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> Organization: Boskonia
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:58:26 -0500
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: WHEELER's anti-Semitism
>
> in my arrogant opinion, blaming a word for a person's
> action is cowardly.


from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Hephaestos must be desysoped

body:
Please stop asking for people to be desysopped. It doesn't make you very
credible.

Thanks,
Timwi