subject: [Wikitech-l] Footnotes?

body:
> >Yesss... anchors can solve the problem but we are not liable enough to
have
> >the right to use this feature ;o)
> >
> aaarg!
> anchors are bad.
>
> if you need to drop into the middle of an article then   you have two
> articles that ought to be split.
>
> could we drop it?

I don't think split article is always the solution ;o)
I agree only in the case of very long article.
Split article make it less readable, less printable and over all make it
more longer to load for slow connection.
Imho say "anchors are bad" is the better way to answer the Tomasz problem.
I'm very disappointed that decision maker don't believe we are smart enough
to use anchor in the right way.

Aoineko


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [WikiEN-l] Best approach for dealing with... er... cranks?

body:
Tarquin wrote:

>Chas Brown wrote:

>>How do those on list suggest dealing with contributors like FWappler?

>Every question you put to Fwappler gets an ever-more cryptic reply, with
>that REALLY annoying way of writing "as to: [quoted fragments]", and
>making daft links to irrelevant pages.
>on the other hand, s/he has made useful edits (though still a little
>strange sometimes).

This answer is based more on my experience with him on Usenet than here,
since he has yet to get to any of the math articles that I work on:

I think that we should insist that he provide sources for his explanations.
(The key thing is the explanations, not the opinions as such,
since it's in explaining things to others that W~O)r fails.)
For example, that stuff on [[Curve]] didn't really hang together,
but it seems to me to be a garbled version of something sensible.
It might be a garbled version of something that W~O)r read,
in which case citing a source will let us get it straight.
Or it might be a garbled version of something that he's coming up with,
in which case we don't have to use it if we can't get him
to explain it sensibly (and if we can, then great).
The downside is that we must have ready sources for the "ordinary" stuff.

And BTW, what's on [[Line]] *now* doesn't make much sense either.
I may come back to work on that myself.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Undeleting (Was: a more "confident" username)

body:
Erik Moeller wrote in part:

>1)Understanding the deletion process is essential, especially as
>undeleting pages is currently a PITA. Therefore, the more often the
>process is publicly summarized, the better.

Bookmark the following URL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special%3AUndelete&target=

Then edit this URL to include the name of the relevant page.

-- Toby


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] The Wikipedia file format (Was: New Bug: Newline within a Link)

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote in part:

>The wikipedia file format is, errm, the wikipedia file format

When I'm working on Wikipedia articles offline,
I save them as extension ".wml", for "wiki markup language".
^_^

-- Toby


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Dan Koehl

subject: [Wikitech-l] Google indexerar wikipedia ?

body:
Varf?r det idag ?r/var extremt segt beror uppenbarligen p? Googles
indexering. Och fast de olika spr?ken ?r uppdelade p? subdomainer anstr?ngs
servern ?nd?, eftersom de ligger p? samma fysiska server.

Dan

se nedan:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brion Vibber" <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>
To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: what's going on with wikipedia ?

> On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > It appears we're being Googled this morning.  Googlebot is very
> > well-behaved, and I'm not sure if that's the problem or not, but
>
> Googlebot is fairly light (several seconds to 30 seconds between requests,
> and follows our robots.txt restrictions - its getting articles, not
> millions of diffs or contribs pages. It's only a fraction of total pages
> being served). I have written them an e-mail asking if it's possible to
> restrict the spidering to off-peak hours, though.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>The voting system used is average voting, meaning you can assign a "grade"
>from 1 to 6 (1 being "very good") to each option; the average is
>calculated for each, and the option with the lowest average wins.

Assuming, of course, that we agree to abide by the vote results
(keeping the same method of voting).

-- Toby


from_name: tarquin

body:
Chas Brown wrote:

>How do those on list suggest dealing with contributors like FWappler?
>
>...
>
>He's polite, he's not a vandal, but (for those not mathematically
>minded) he's really not contributing here. Although he's using
>mathematical language, the result is basically gibberish.
>
>Two thoughts come to mind:
>
>(1) Ever terser reverts.
>(2) Wait a few days, and ''then'' revert.
>
>
>
I asked this list pretty much the same question, also about Fwappler,
some months ago.
IIRC we concluded at the time that he was either:
* slightly strange
* a mental patient
* on a different plane of reality
* or a very, very original troll.

Every question you put to Fwappler gets an ever-more cryptic reply, with
that REALLY annoying way of writing "as to: [quoted fragments]", and
making daft links to irrelevant pages.
on the other hand, s/he has made useful edits (though still a little
strange sometimes).

if this were a real-life volunteer project, Fwappler would be the old
lady who smells of cat pee, who we frequently don't understand, who we
have to clean up after she's gone, but can't bring ourselves to tell to
get lost ;-)

>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] A plea

body:
Richard Grevers wrote:

> Please folks, if you want to start a new thread, don't do so by
> replying to a random message and deleting the previous subject and
> contents. When you do this, the message still contains headers
> referencing which messages it is a child of, and those of us with
> proper threading mail/news clients see the mutant message in an
> existing thread on a totally different topic.
>
> There has been a real rash of this in the past couple of days.

guilty as charged.
i've been doing this to quickly grab the right address I want to post to.
didn't realise the implications. sorry :(


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] a more "confident" username

body:
> Erik, please don't continue singling out LittleDan for
> special schooling--there's no reason to condescend to
> him because he's young,

I have already cited the reasons, I don't care how old he is. As for
moving this to private mail:
1)Understanding the deletion process is essential, especially as
undeleting pages is currently a PITA. Therefore, the more often the
process is publicly summarized, the better.
2)The whole process of sysop nomination and sysop status transfer is a
public process, not a private one.

I will therefore continue to publicly "quiz" nominated sysops whom I
suspect may not be familiar with our process about its finer details.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bias in the west and such media

body:
The below quote is from here:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?dir=7&story=313235&ho
st=3&printable=1

"Indeed, you have to come to America to realise just how brave this small
but vocal Jewish community is. Bernstein is the first to acknowledge that a
combination of Israeli lobbyists and conservative Christian fundamentalists
have in effect censored all free discussion of Israel and the Middle East
out of the public domain in the US. "

I'm wondering if, and have long surmised that, this is an issue on
Wikipedia, and am curious about whether it merits a centralized, and open
discussion.  -Stevertigo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
Hi,

as per Jimbo's suggestion, I have started a voting page for the various
ways to reform the article count. Please see

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_count_reform

for the details. In short,

March 13th, 20:00 GMT is the deadline for proposals/discussion and the
beginning of the voting phase

March 17th, 20:00 GMT is the end of the voting phase.

The voting system used is average voting, meaning you can assign a "grade"
from 1 to 6 (1 being "very good") to each option; the average is
calculated for each, and the option with the lowest average wins.

I have seeded the page with proposals which I remember from past
discussions, please add your own where appropriate. My current favorite:
20 bytes + stub flagging.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>The voting system used is average voting, meaning you can assign a "grade"
>from 1 to 6 (1 being "very good") to each option; the average is
>calculated for each, and the option with the lowest average wins.
>
This is backwards.  Where someone thinks so poorly of an option as not
to vote they effectively give that option a zero vote.  To work
effectively it would require that a person who chooses to vote MUST vote
on ALL options provided.  It would be better if 6 were for very good,
and the highest total score (or average?) wins.

Eclecticology


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
Tomos at Wikipedia wrote:

> First, let me thank Eric for his effort on this.
>
> Second, I am wondering if some further clarification might help.
> Some are not necessary for this time, but nevertheless important
> issues for the future multilingual voting. So I list them anyway.
>
> (1) If we should be a registered user in meta in order to vote.

This should be essential, but we have no way of preventing people from
having multiple registrations.

> (2) If we should vote in individual language-wiki.
> (3) How to count votes of those who have multiple usernames
> across multiple languages.
> (4) If we need any weighing of votes by language - balancing
> voices from less-populated wikis with populated wikis.

This will matter in some issues, but not all

> (5) If we care preventing a username.

Probably not practical, and the banned users are likely to be so few as
not to have a statistically significant influence on the voting

> (6) If we need some time to make translations of the voting page
> in multiple languages.

The importance of this will vary with the issue

> The more I think about this kind of procedural difficulties, the
> more I feel uncomfortable relying on voting as a measure of
> conflict resolution. Especially when the stake is high and
> there is some serious disagreements, I suppose designing a
> good voting system could be very difficult. We might need
> some bureaucracy for it.

The usefulness of voting varies inversely to the importance of the
subject.  There are numerous opinions on the matter of article count,
but nobody sees this as a core value for Wikipedia.  A voting procedure
here helps us to choose between a number of reasonable alternatives,
that have not reached conflict level.  Having Wikipedians vote for an
official stand on the Israel/Palestine conflict would be insane.

In applying Erik's proposal we are experimenting with trying to find
what works

> And here is another issue. This one definitely needs some
> clarification, though it has nothing to do with multilinguality
> of the issue.
>
> With this type of voting, we may vote on each combination
> of the options only when the number of options are small enough:
>
> *size=20+; restrictions=stub flag+ comma; additional=frequency
> by 50bytes.
> *size=20+; restrictions=stub flag+ two paragraphs; additional=none.
> *size=205+; restrictions=none; additional= A4 pages
> and so on. Currently, we have:
>
> 4 options in size category,
> 4 options in further restrictions category (except for
> no-restriction), and
> 5 options in additional stats category.
>
> This already means 4 * (2^4) * (2^5) = 2048 combinations.
>
> Well, so I guess we wouldn't like to do that.

This sort of problem is inevitable when the number of options is open-ended.

> An alternative would be to vote separately on each item,
> disregarding the combination.

Weighted voting can help here, but I find that Erik's proposal to use 1
for the preferred option and 6 for a less  interesting one to be backwards.

> Then of course, there would be a risk of resulting in a
> combination that no one favored. (e.g. 250 bytes in size
> and two-paragraphs as the further restriction turn out
> to be the best of each category.)

That risk is always there

> Another possibility that I can think of is multi-staged
> voting. We first vote on size. Then given the result,
> we vote on further restrictions. Then with the size and
> further restrictions in mind, we vote on additional stats.
> I guess this would be a good way, except that it takes
> more time to finish.

In these circumstances the purpose of the first ballot would be to
create a short list.  With numerous options available, very few will
receive more than one or two votes.  When the first ballot is finished
eliminate anything that did not receive more than 10% of the total vote,
or some other workable criterion.

Eclecticology

>


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
very good questions !

--- Tomos at Wikipedia <wiki_tomos at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Second, I am wondering if some further clarification
> might help.
> Some are not necessary for this time, but
> nevertheless important
> issues for the future multilingual voting. So I list
> them anyway.

Save them ! But there are so many points to clarify
that we could limit ourselves to the current situation
maybe ?

> (1) If we should be a registered user in meta in
> order to vote.

Not necessarily registered in meta (or loggued in).
But it might be interesting to be able to contact the
one who voted. And since there are about 30-40
wikipedias now, it's tough to guess who comes from
where...

> (2) If we should vote in individual language-wiki.

I think we should have the choice to do both. Those
who don't speak english will prefer to do it in their
language. Those who speak english might do it directly
in meta. And some trusted members could transfert
votes from individual wiki to meta. Imposing votes to
be "registered" only in meta would exclude all those
who don't speak english, and this is not the good way.

> (3) How to count votes of those who have multiple
> usernames across multiple languages.
> (4) If we need any weighing of votes by language -
> balancing
> voices from less-populated wikis with populated
> wikis.

You mean indirectly favoring the situation where the
english get "best" when international get "good" ?
(Andr?, both "best" and "good" are positive, while
"crippling" is negative; getting only "good" for the
en, and "best" for the others, does not imply
"crippling" the english wikipedia imho, no ?)

I think that should be considered for each issue
differently.

For the comma issue, given that it was raised "again"
by the japanese and the french (though for very
different reasons - yours is a major reason, ours is
just a distraction), I think it would be *real* wrong
to consider our voices as been half or quarter voices
compared to english ones. Even if it ends up being
only "good" for en, and best for the japanese.

Another point is that in this case, people
(wikipedians) are voting, not the wikipedias
themselves (one or several votes for each of them).
And many of us participate to at least two wikipedias.
So, are we voting thinking of our mother language, or
are we voting for the common good ?

> (5) If we care preventing a username.
> (6) If we need some time to make translations of the
> voting page
> in multiple languages.

Could we have more than 24 hours to translate, both
sides...24 hours in not enough, especially since
wikipedia is stuck most of the time during some
wikipedia up hours.

> Hope this helps,

yes, it was helpful, thanks Tomos

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


from_name: Jimmy Wales

in_reply_to: <001201c2e868$f54b70c0$c679e90c@attbi.com>; from stevertigo@attbi.com on Tue, Mar 11, 2003 at 11:28:20PM -0800

body:
I do think we should discuss bias and potential sources of bias in the
wikipedia.  That's an important issue that we will always struggle
with.  I just caution everyone to remember that discussing it in the
context of Israel and the Middle East is difficult and that we should
be wary of straying into _content_ discussions about what is actually
right or wrong in that context.

Some of that is unavoidable, but we should be careful not to let this
discussion (about possible sources of bias in the wikipedia) to turn
into a flamewar about what is undoubtably a very emotional and very
VERY complex situation.

Stevertigo wrote:
> "Indeed, you have to come to America to realise just how brave this
> small but vocal Jewish community is. Bernstein is the first to
> acknowledge that a combination of Israeli lobbyists and conservative
> Christian fundamentalists have in effect censored all free
> discussion of Israel and the Middle East out of the public domain in
> the US. "

I think that this notion -- that "free discussion" is "censored" in
the US is absolutely farcical.

The US is a very noisy place.  You can find, without much looking,
just about anyone saying just about anything.  Extremists on all sides
frequently complain that their voice isn't being heard. And specific
allegations of bias against particular news outlets are undeniably
true.  But taken as a whole, there's a very rich and complex debate
about all these things.

> I'm wondering if, and have long surmised that, this is an issue on
> Wikipedia, and am curious about whether it merits a centralized, and
> open discussion.

Certainly potential bias does deserve a centralized and open
discussion.

--Jimbo


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Error

body:
I got the same error message
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20030312/93a76033/attachment.htm


from_name: sannse

subject: [WikiEN-l] Album release dates

body:
I'm worried about the release dates Michael has added to various music
articles.  I noticed this a while ago, but could never find any useful
information on-line to check the dates.  The only time I've found anything
useful ( http://mvdb.studentenweb.org/albums/tdoad.htm ) the date didn't
correspond to the date in the article (
http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Public_Affection&oldid=739713 ).

(The date was added by 64.175.250.232 who seems to be Michael, he commented
on [[Talk:Anthrax (band)]] as Michael under this IP)

I had presumed that he had some reference off-line, but now I'm not so sure.
I've asked Michael on his talk page what source he is using but he just
blanked my question without comment.  He also removed the information I left
on [[Talk:Public Affection]]

I think I should note that he has also blanked Jimbo's warning on his talk
page (twice), and his attitude to questions can be pretty much summed up by
his reply to Eloquence: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Conspiracy_of_One

Regards,

sannse


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Footnotes?

body:
Sheldon Rampton wrote:

> I have to disagree. Footnotes add an additional layer of difficulty in
> both paper and web formats, but sometimes they're necessary.
>
> that appear at the bottom of an entire article. Both notating schemes
> are used in academic and other paper-based publishing contexts, but the
> only one that could really be used on web pages would be the "end note"
> scheme, and that's actually what I had in mind.

I see footnotes or end notes in paper-based publishing and in an
academic context, but never seen a encyclopedia with end notes.

Don't forget possible targets like publishing Wikipedia in paper-based
form. Take a proper paper-based encyclopedia and try to imagine how bad
end-notes would look like.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
First, let me thank Eric for his effort on this.

Second, I am wondering if some further clarification might help.
Some are not necessary for this time, but nevertheless important
issues for the future multilingual voting. So I list them anyway.

(1) If we should be a registered user in meta in order to vote.
(2) If we should vote in individual language-wiki.
(3) How to count votes of those who have multiple usernames
across multiple languages.
(4) If we need any weighing of votes by language - balancing
voices from less-populated wikis with populated wikis.
(5) If we care preventing a username.
(6) If we need some time to make translations of the voting page
in multiple languages.

The more I think about this kind of procedural difficulties, the
more I feel uncomfortable relying on voting as a measure of
conflict resolution. Especially when the stake is high and
there is some serious disagreements, I suppose designing a
good voting system could be very difficult. We might need
some bureaucracy for it.

And here is another issue. This one definitely needs some
clarification, though it has nothing to do with multilinguality
of the issue.

With this type of voting, we may vote on each combination
of the options only when the number of options are small enough:

*size=20+; restrictions=stub flag+ comma; additional=frequency
by 50bytes.
*size=20+; restrictions=stub flag+ two paragraphs; additional=none.
*size=205+; restrictions=none; additional= A4 pages
and so on. Currently, we have:

4 options in size category,
4 options in further restrictions category (except for no-restriction), and
5 options in additional stats category.

This already means 4 * (2^4) * (2^5) = 2048 combinations.

Well, so I guess we wouldn't like to do that.

An alternative would be to vote separately on each item,
disregarding the combination.

Then of course, there would be a risk of resulting in a
combination that no one favored. (e.g. 250 bytes in size
and two-paragraphs as the further restriction turn out
to be the best of each category.)

Another possibility that I can think of is multi-staged
voting. We first vote on size. Then given the result,
we vote on further restrictions. Then with the size and
further restrictions in mind, we vote on additional stats.
I guess this would be a good way, except that it takes
more time to finish.

Hope this helps,

Tomos

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

in_reply_to: <3E6F6B1F.6060208@wikipedia.be>; from giskart@wikipedia.be on Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 06:15:11PM +0100

body:
Giskart wrote:
> I have the impression that the distrubution of the emails of the mailing
> lists is not working.

When the load on the machine goes over a certain number, sendmail
takes a break.  The changes that Brion made have the load running high
-- over 20.  This keeps the website going, but has the unfortunate
side effect of preventing mail distribution.

I'm going to cut the MaxClients setting to 100 for a little while, to
let the mailing lists function for a bit, and then bump it back up.


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

body:
Regarding the FWappler flap:

Let's take it back to the Wikipedia website, i.e., in Talk pages:
* [[talk:line]]
* [[talk:curve]]
* user talk pages for FWappler, etc.

I think we can "straighten" out his "twisty" approach and lead him on the "path" to Wiki paradise. Or else we can translate his "veering" prose into "plane" English.

uncle ed


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] A plea

body:
Please folks, if you want to start a new thread, don't do so by replying to
a random message and deleting the previous subject and contents. When you
do this, the message still contains headers referencing which messages it
is a child of, and those of us with proper threading mail/news clients see
the mutant message in an existing thread on a totally different topic.

There has been a real rash of this in the past couple of days.
--
Richard Grevers


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Footnotes?

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

>>>
This is a subhead

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>An inline element () may not contain a block element (
)
>>
>>
>
>Yep, didn't check that.  Make it
>
>
This is a subhead

>
>and otherwise the idea remains the same.
>
>

This is a subhead

Don't include the name in the , I think that will could it acquire hovering properties (underlining, etc) which we don't want

>
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] many errors

body:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Kurt Jansson wrote:
>     INSERT INTO brokenlinks (bl_from,bl_to) VALUES
> (12369,'Wohlstand'),(14498,'Wohlstand')
>
> aus der Funktion "Article::doDeleteArticle". MySQL meldete den Fehler
> "1030: Got error 127 from table handler".

An error crept into the brokenlinks table (possibly thanks to that hard
reboot the other day?). It should be repaired now.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> When the load on the machine goes over a certain number, sendmail
> takes a break.  The changes that Brion made have the load running high
> -- over 20.  This keeps the website going, but has the unfortunate
> side effect of preventing mail distribution.

I'd wager sendmail can be configured with a higher threshold. (But, since
sendmail was designed with satanic powers to drive men mad, I don't know
how to configure it so.)

Jimbo, a couple weeks ago you mentioned something about looking for spare
hardware which might be used to have separate database and web servers.
If we can get that set up, that would be a big help on this front too,
as sendmail could sit on the less loaded of the two.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Wikisearch.php problem

body:
Hello all,

Using wikisearch utility today I have encountered this error message :
   Warning: php_network_getaddresses: getaddrinfo failed: No address
   associated with hostname in
   /usr/local/apache/htdocs/tools/wikisearch.php on line 227
   Warning: file("http://es.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?search=Blasis") -
   Bad file descriptor in /usr/local/apache/htdocs/tools/wikisearch.php
   on line 227
   Warning: Bad arguments to implode() in
   /usr/local/apache/htdocs/tools/wikisearch.php on line 227

For Swedish, Catala, Castellano.
Something needs to be fixed, perhaps ?

Regards,
Kpjas.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Show and Tell

body:
Sometimes the best approach to "uncooperative" people is to give them a good example. That is, show them what to do instead of telling them.

For example, user:Michael responded to Jimbo's and my policy comments by wiping his page today. To me, this means he doesn't want to engage in any dialogue. Should we ban him because he won't talk? No.

I don't think refusing to dialogue is (or should be) a bannable offense, and I've also heard people say that actions speak louder than words, so I decided to rack up some wiki karma by following Michael around a bit and demonstrating how a stub can be fleshed out.

uncle ed

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=S.C.I.E.N.C.E. <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=S.C.I.E.N.C.E.&action=history> &action=history

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030312/620c3744/attachment.htm


subject: [WikiEN-l] Show and Tell

in_reply_to: <E506B3FF6BC1254C9AC1B948C380BC280F43DA@sm-nyny-xm05.nena.wdpr.disney.com>; from Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com on Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 10:37:45AM -0500

body:
As is often the way, Uncle Ed shows us a good path with grace and good
humor.

Poor, Edmund W wrote:

> Sometimes the best approach to "uncooperative" people is to give them a good example. That is, show them what to do instead of telling them.
>
> For example, user:Michael responded to Jimbo's and my policy comments by wiping his page today. To me, this means he doesn't want to engage in any dialogue. Should we ban him because he won't talk? No.
>
> I don't think refusing to dialogue is (or should be) a bannable offense, and I've also heard people say that actions speak louder than words, so I decided to rack up some wiki karma by following Michael around a bit and demonstrating how a stub can be fleshed out.
>
> uncle ed
>
> http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=S.C.I.E.N.C.E. <http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=S.C.I.E.N.C.E.&action=history> &action=history
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Internal anchors (Was: Footnotes?)

body:
Tarquin wrote:

>Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

>>
This is a subhead

>
This is a subhead

>Don't include the name in the , I think that will could it acquire
>hovering properties (underlining, etc) which we don't want

Which browsers do this?  Is this more than just a guess?
The reason that I ask is that W3C warns that

"User agents should be able to find anchors created by empty A elements,
"but some fail to do so.
-- http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-html40-19980424/struct/links.html#h-12.2

So we could be between a rock and a hard space if both problems occur.

(OTOH, perhaps
This is a subhead

will be a decent hack that works for everybody.)

And I do suggest recognising the spaces as we normally do in our URLs,
to avoid confusing people by doing them differently.

-- Toby


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: what's going on with wikipedia ?
 (googlebot)

body:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Leonard Tulipan wrote:
> Well Brian, off-peak hours is a bit of problem with an international
> website, isn't it?

No, not really. 02:00-14:00 UTC there is overall lower traffic than
14:00-02:00. "Off-peak" isn't the same as "no one at all uses the site".

However, I've heard back from the Google folks and they apparently have no
such configuration option for googlebot to limit the times when particular
domains are spidered:

> Hi Brion,
>
> Thanks for contacting Google.
>
> We apologize for the load you are experiencing on your web servers. The
> crawling of websites by Googlebot is an automated process, therefore we
> are unable to make manual requests for Googlebot.  What we can offer to do
> is to slow down the crawl rate for your site.  If you would like us to do
> so, please advise and we will honor your request to do so. In the
> meantime, if you would prefer not to
> have Googlebot crawl your website, please refer to our FAQ at
> http://www.google.com/webmasters/3.html#B3 . We hope this information is
> helpful. Please contact us if you have any further questions.
>
> Regards,
> The Google Team

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] many errors

body:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Thomas Corell wrote:
> I think this depends on Brions changes to the apache-connentions. The
> difference between Apache-connections(240) and DB-connections(250) is to
> small.

Yes, it ran swimmingly yesterday but apparently it wasn't enough to
survive the morning rush. :(

I'll up the mysql connection limit a bit and down the apache limit a bit
and see if we can even it out.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, I wrote:
> I'd wager sendmail can be configured with a higher threshold. (But, since
> sendmail was designed with satanic powers to drive men mad, I don't know
> how to configure it so.)

Hey, that actually wasn't so bad! *tweak tweak*

  # load average at which we just queue messages
  O QueueLA=20

  # load average at which we refuse connections
  O RefuseLA=30

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: what's going on with wikipedia ? (googlebot)

body:
Very interesting.  I'd hate to slow googlebot down on our site.
We love google, and we love that google loves us back.

Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Leonard Tulipan wrote:
> > Well Brian, off-peak hours is a bit of problem with an international
> > website, isn't it?
>
> No, not really. 02:00-14:00 UTC there is overall lower traffic than
> 14:00-02:00. "Off-peak" isn't the same as "no one at all uses the site".
>
> However, I've heard back from the Google folks and they apparently have no
> such configuration option for googlebot to limit the times when particular
> domains are spidered:
>
> > Hi Brion,
> >
> > Thanks for contacting Google.
> >
> > We apologize for the load you are experiencing on your web servers. The
> > crawling of websites by Googlebot is an automated process, therefore we
> > are unable to make manual requests for Googlebot.  What we can offer to do
> > is to slow down the crawl rate for your site.  If you would like us to do
> > so, please advise and we will honor your request to do so. In the
> > meantime, if you would prefer not to
> > have Googlebot crawl your website, please refer to our FAQ at
> > http://www.google.com/webmasters/3.html#B3 . We hope this information is
> > helpful. Please contact us if you have any further questions.
> >
> > Regards,
> > The Google Team
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Footnotes?

body:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:10:06 -0800, Toby Bartels
<toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:

> Tarquin wrote:
>
>> please give an example of a specific article which would be improved
>> with anchors
>
> Any article which refers to other sections of itself would be so improved
> under the proposal to support only [[#bar]] and interpret
> == bar == as
bar
 instead of
bar
.
>
While I support this idea for internal links, I'd say lets be forward
looking and use the much simpler
bar
 - although bar
should be a single word, since spaces are not allowed in fragment
identifiers unless urlencoded.
Using ID would not work in the zombie browser (Netscape 4), but NN4 is so
bad that I frankly don't care about supporting it. The information wills
till be there.

--
Richard Grevers


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
--Tomos--
>Another possibility that I can think of is multi-staged
>voting. We first vote on size. Then given the result,
>we vote on further restrictions. Then with the size and
>further restrictions in mind, we vote on additional stats.
>I guess this would be a good way, except that it takes
>more time to finish.

--Ray Saintonge--
>In these circumstances the purpose of the first ballot would be to create a
>short list.  With numerous options available, very few will receive more
>than one or two votes.  When the first ballot is finished eliminate
>anything that did not receive more than 10% of the total >vote, or some
>other workable criterion.

----

I noticed some of my explanations were not clear enough. Here is
an attempt to explain further about the last part, the multi-stage
voting. Not that I strongly advocate for this method, but it has
a merit, and I want to make it clear.

What I wanted to mean by multi-stage voting is this:

Stage 1:
We evaluate each of the suggested file-size items, from 1-6.
The item with the lowest average wins. That's the selected
thresold.

Stage 2:
We now evaluate each combination of the suggested items in
"further restrictions" category. Again, each voter gives a
number between 1-6 on each item.

If the thresold is decided to be 500 as the result of the stage 1,
then people would not give good rates on "comma," "stab flag," and
"two-paragraph." Because of the knowledge about the selected
thresold, we can avoid some strange combinations like "500 bytes
and a comma." That's the merit of multi-stage voting.

If there are five items proposed as further restrictions, we
would have 2^5 =32 combinations, including "none" and "all of them."

Again, the combination receiving the lowest average wins.

(I omit the explanation of why we use combination here, instead
of just each item.)

Stage 3:
We evaluate each combination of the suggested items on "additional stats".

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Footnotes?

body:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:48:35 -0600, Lee Daniel Crocker
<lee at piclab.com> wrote:

>>> Any article which refers to other sections of itself would be so
>>> improved
>>> under the proposal to support only [[#bar]] and interpret
>>> == bar == as
bar
 instead of
bar
.
>
> There was less objection (and frankly, very little reason to object)
> to the original design of anchor links which simply made [[foo#bar]]
> behave exactly as expected.  There was more objection to the syntax
> I chose for target anchors ([[##bar]]), and the idea of being able
> to use target anchors in the first place.
>
> Some of those objections might be addressed by agreeing to not allow
> /arbitrary/ anchors, but make all H2s implicit anchors.  So that, for
> example,
>
> == This is a subhead ==
>
> is rendered as
>
>
This is a subhead

>
An inline element () may not contain a block element (
)
--
Richard Grevers


body:
> James penned: (edited for length)
> Certainly potential bias does deserve a centralized and open
> discussion.
> Some of that is unavoidable, but we should be careful not to let this
> discussion (about possible sources of bias in the wikipedia) to turn
> into a flamewar about what is undoubtably a very emotional and very
> VERY complex situation.

And 'caution' is warranted - I would of course be cautious to be overly
cautious.
And even your use of the word 'complex' is complex.

> I think that this notion -- that "free discussion" is "censored" in
> the US is absolutely farcical.

Well, it's really about the marketing of public opinion - to what degree (if
any. !) does the Corpculture maintain a homogenized conservative to moderate
bandwidth... As far as mass media goes, which feeds the bulk of public
opinion, which determines action: If you see it, you believe it, you vote
it. Assuming the bias is X, is the degree of X equivlent here on WP... In
otherwords does the en:WP represent an international voice, or an excusively
Euro-American voice, and were are there obstacles to the former?

> And specific allegations of bias against particular news outlets are
undeniably
> true.

Well, this too, is generalizing... the accusation itself is in some ways a
tool for creating the appearance of bias. Scream anti-this or anti-that loud
enough, and there will be some response. The issue is to not just get around
the rhetoric, but uproot the rhetoric. All of it - and in its place, fact.

> But taken as a whole, there's a very rich and complex debate
> about all these things.
> we should be wary of straying into _content_ discussions about what is
> actually right or wrong in that context.

That there is rich and complex debate is true,  but there are issues of
sources, and I think with regard to sources, there is a tendency to
discredit information from sources that is in any way critical of certain
POV. The criticism should of course be based on factual and moral appeals.
Countercriticism based on practicalities is mere practicality - and should
be characterized as such, and represented plainly.

I am against characterizing all sides as merely POV; There is a heirarchy of
POV in my opinion, and that is; the one with more truth in it is superior -
The one with more clarity of purpose, the least supression of facts, or
intelligent comment: The stronger appeal, based on principle is Superior to
a self-interested, [[moral  relativist]] pov. Thus, a real definition of
'NPOV,' is the standard I'm talking about.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Show and Tell

body:
> As is often the way, Uncle Ed shows us a good path with grace and good
> humor.

Uncle Ed's got a lot on the ball. -SV


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia:Arab-Israeli conflict editing project

body:
I'm breathing some new life into the [[Wikipedia:Arab-Israeli conflict
editing project]]... Some cages will be rattled... (reflexive human
tendencies)... And all unbecoming behaviour will be reported here. Daily if
need be. -SV


from_name: Pedro M.V.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Error

body:
I have recieve the next error message when accessing to wikipedia article :

Warning: MySQL: Link to server lost, unable to reconnect in /usr/local/apache/htdocs/w/DatabaseFunctions.php on line 26
Could not connect to DB on xxx.x.x.x ip address.

If this error persists after reloading and clearing your browser cache, please notify the Wikipedia developers.

:?


from_name: Jason Richey

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

in_reply_to: <3E6F993E.2050507@corell.dyndns.org>; from T.Corell@t-online.de on Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 09:31:58PM +0100

body:
Ideally, we would use the m4 macros that would give an equivalent
output...  We should be upgrading sendmail on this machine soon
anyway, since the current version has known vulnerabilities, and m4 is
the suggested (in the sendmail install documentation) format for
sendmail configuration, from which actual .cf files are built.

Jason

Thomas Corell wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
> > Hey, that actually wasn't so bad! *tweak tweak*
>
> I see I have to mail tips directly to you ;) The mailing list is too
> slow ;) And read the list using the lists web archiv, to get the
> questions faster :)
>
> Smurf
> --
> -------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


body:
WML is used for http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/WML

I suggest use WPL WikiPedia Language ;)

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Bartels" <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu>
To: <wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 6:46 AM
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] The Wikipedia file format (Was: New Bug: Newline within a Link)

> Karl Eichwalder wrote in part:
>
> >The wikipedia file format is, errm, the wikipedia file format
>
> When I'm working on Wikipedia articles offline,
> I save them as extension ".wml", for "wiki markup language".
> ^_^
>
>
> -- Toby
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Jason Richey wrote:
> Ideally, we would use the m4 macros that would give an equivalent
> output...  We should be upgrading sendmail on this machine soon
> anyway, since the current version has known vulnerabilities,

I installed the update RPM last week (sendmail-8.11.16-23.72.rpm),
supposedly it is patched against the new vulnerability. So sayeth Red Hat,
anyways.

> and m4 is
> the suggested (in the sendmail install documentation) format for
> sendmail configuration, from which actual .cf files are built.

Feel free to mess with it, my good man.  *shudder*

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Giskart

subject: [Wikitech-l] Again slow

body: Wikipedia is again very slow.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia:Arab-Israeli conflict editing project

body:
 I'm breathing some new life into the [[Wikipedia:Arab-Israeli conflict
editing project]]... Some cages will be rattled... (reflexive human
tendencies)... And all unbecoming behaviour will be reported here. Daily if
need be. -SV


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
> (1) If we should be a registered user in meta in order to vote.

Yes, please create account on Meta-Wikipedia. This will be useful for
future votes as well.

> (2) If we should vote in individual language-wiki.

No, project-wide votes should be held on Meta.

> (3) How to count votes of those who have multiple usernames
> across multiple languages.

For now, we need to count on honesty: one person, one vote.

> (4) If we need any weighing of votes by language - balancing
> voices from less-populated wikis with populated wikis.

I don't think so. Equality, liberty etc.

> (5) If we care preventing a username.

??

> (6) If we need some time to make translations of the voting page
> in multiple languages.

I hope English will be good enough for now. Syncing votes across several
pages would be a pain.

> The more I think about this kind of procedural difficulties, the
> more I feel uncomfortable relying on voting as a measure of
> conflict resolution.

We should always seek a consensus first. But if that is not possible, the
only alternative to some kind of voting system is to rely on a single
arbitrator -- in our case, Jimbo.

>  Especially when the stake is high and
> there is some serious disagreements, I suppose designing a
> good voting system could be very difficult. We might need
> some bureaucracy for it.

I don't think so. We primarily need software support for whatever voting
system we choose to implement.

> Another possibility that I can think of is multi-staged
> voting.

Yes, if complexity gets too high, we need to split up the issues into
stages.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reform

body:
> Erik Moeller wrote:

>> The voting system used is average voting, meaning you can assign a "grade"
>> from 1 to 6 (1 being "very good") to each option; the average is
>> calculated for each, and the option with the lowest average wins.
>>
> This is backwards.  Where someone thinks so poorly of an option as not
> to vote they effectively give that option a zero vote.

No. Example:

Option: Only articles that contain the word "Foo" should be counted.
1 (very good): FooMaster
2:
3:
4:
5: KungFoo
6 (very bad): Eloquence

The resulting score (1+5+6) / 3: 4

Those who do not vote neither improve nor reduce the score.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Leonard Tulipan

body:
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:19:36 -0800 (PST)
> From: Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: what's going on with wikipedia ?
> To: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> Reply-To: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
>
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > It appears we're being Googled this morning.  Googlebot is very
> > well-behaved, and I'm not sure if that's the problem or not, but
>
> Googlebot is fairly light (several seconds to 30 seconds between requests,
> and follows our robots.txt restrictions - its getting articles, not
> millions of diffs or contribs pages. It's only a fraction of total pages
> being served). I have written them an e-mail asking if it's possible to
> restrict the spidering to off-peak hours, though.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>

Well Brian, off-peak hours is a bit of problem with an international
website, isn't it?
When germany goes to lunch (12:00 CET - Central European Time), the
people in San Francisco come home from the bar (3:00 AM PST - Pacific
Standard Time).
So I think google cannot really do anything about, except treating every
sub-domain according to it's timezone. (otherwise people in europe will
ALWAYS have a slow wikipedia, because google thinks that is off-peak
time).
Another idea which might or might not work is the Apache Module
mod_throttle
http://www.snert.com/Software/mod_throttle/
You could give a general minimum idle time between requests or you could
give penalties to db-heavy documents. But of course, this would make
things still slower to some, but at least the server will take the load
without coming close to a crash.

Cheers
Leo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: A plea

body:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 22:34:24 +0000, tarquin
<tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:

> Richard Grevers wrote:
>
>> Please folks, if you want to start a new thread, don't do so by replying
>> to a random message and deleting the previous subject and contents. When
>> you do this, the message still contains headers referencing which
>> messages it is a child of, and those of us with proper threading
>> mail/news clients see the mutant message in an existing thread on a
>> totally different topic.
>>
>> There has been a real rash of this in the past couple of days.
>
> guilty as charged.
> i've been doing this to quickly grab the right address I want to post to.
> didn't realise the implications. sorry :(
>
I can be rather lazy at adding addresses to my address book too! :-)
I'm receiving these lists in Opera 7, which automatically creates "access-
points" for them, which solves the problem of getting the right "to"
address, but when I hit compose it often chooses the wrong "from" address
:-/

--
Richard Grevers


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Like totally new, dude!

body:
--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:
> This list is, like, so boring! Let's all talk in surfer slang and
> party hearty!!
>
> There's humungous numbers of totally bitchin' things goin' down'
> bro! We gotta get into all that and make it, like, real for the
> masses. You know where I'm comin' from?
>
> Surfer Dude

Right on!

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] copy and paste

body:
To not loss your work, select and copy  the text you have written in an wikipedia article before press the "Save button" or you risk loss your work if wikipedia server is down or give you a "too many connections message".

Regards.

----
http://www.journeytoforever.org


from_name: Jonathan Walther

body:
On Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 06:19:18AM -0800, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>Some of that is unavoidable, but we should be careful not to let this
>discussion (about possible sources of bias in the wikipedia) to turn
>into a flamewar about what is undoubtably a very emotional and very
>VERY complex situation.

The flames have been going on for months.  The discussion needs to
happen so the flames can be put out.  If they spread to the mailing
list, that is not an excuse for forestalling the discussion and allowing
the current bad situation to continue.

>I think that this notion -- that "free discussion" is "censored" in
>the US is absolutely farcical.

I quote here the learned Professor Noam Chomsky, in his book "The Common
Good", published in 1998.  In context, he wrote this paragraph about how
the media in the USA (and many other parts of the world) operate:

    The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly
    limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively
    debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and
    dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free
    thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the
    system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the
    debate.

>Certainly potential bias does deserve a centralized and open
>discussion.

Your phrasing here seems to indicate you don't wish to acknowledge the
fact of already existing bias in the Wikipedia.  It does exist.  And it
is preventing the Wikipedia from attracting credentialed contributors.
In fact, it has driven away several credentialed contributors that I
know of.  And this fact prevents Wikipedia from gaining much academic
esteem.

You always seem to come down on the side of those who are pro-Israel
and/or populist, without regard to the merits or facts.  That is your
bias.  As long as you decide who gets to play on your wiki, it will
reflect your personal biases.

I don't know what can be done about this; obviously asking you not to be
biased won't work, as you haven't admitted your biases to your own self
yet.

Cunctator, what would you recommend?  You seem to have ideas like
soft-security, and so forth.  What would be a solution?

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 307 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20030312/dc718e93/attachment.pgp


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] The Wikipedia file format (Was: New Bug: Newline
 within a Link)

body:
Pedro M.V. wrote:

>WML is used for http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/WML
>
>I suggest use WPL WikiPedia Language ;)
>
>
>
Why not "*.wiki"?

Magnus


subject: [WikiEN-l] Like totally new, dude!

body:
This list is, like, so boring! Let's all talk in surfer slang and party hearty!!

There's humungous numbers of totally bitchin' things goin' down' bro! We gotta get into all that and make it, like, real for the masses. You know where I'm comin' from?

Surfer Dude


from_name: Kurt Jansson

subject: [Wikitech-l] many errors

body:
Many requests timed out in the last days, but now I'm getting error
messages when I try to delete pages:

----

Fehler in der Datenbank

aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklop?die

Es gab einen Syntaxfehler in der Datenbankabfrage. Das k?nnte eine
illegale Suchanfrage sein (siehe Wikipedia durchsuchen), oder ein
Softwarefehler. Die letzte Datenbankabfrage lautete:

    INSERT INTO brokenlinks (bl_from,bl_to) VALUES
(12369,'Wohlstand'),(14498,'Wohlstand')

aus der Funktion "Article::doDeleteArticle". MySQL meldete den Fehler
"1030: Got error 127 from table handler".

----

And "too many connections" messages.

Do we get too many visitors through google, now that we're indexed
again? I have the impression that there are more anonymous edits on the
German Wikipedia.

Brion, maybe you could update the statistic pages for further
examination.

Kurt


from_name: Athymik

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Death to the comma count!

body:
> =20
> > > Oui !
> > > The french wikipedia has become a hunt place for
> > > commas !
> > > Even in articles less than 10 words long...
> >=20
> > Ouhl=E0l=E0... Warning commas-hunters ! Anthere is back
> > !!!
>
> Ah, Tim ! Si tu n'existais pas, il faudrait t'inventer
> !
>
> Tiens, d'ailleurs, faudra que tu nous explique comment
> on te reconnait, car franchement, connaitre ta cl=E9, =E7a
> ne m'avance pas du tout du tout du tout
T?l?charges la cl?, que tu importes dans PGP/GnuPG. Ensuite, avec
GnuPG/PGP, tu v?rifies la signature du message. Le principe est que seul
le possesseur de la cl? secr?te correspondant ? la cl? publique peut
g?n?rer une signature correcte du message. C'est compris ?

> Et tant que je ne comprend pas,
> Tim , c'est Tim,
> et Tim, c'est toi
Erreur, Anthere, erreur !
Sais-tu (oui, tu devrais avoir) qu'il y a pr?s d'une dizaine de Tim sur
Wikipedia ? Il y aussi Athyrance, Athrystant, Athypique, etc...
Aussi, j'esp?re que tu ne te refuseras pas ? comprendre...

> > Anthere, take a look at [[SHA-1]] and tell me how
> > many commas are there?
> > There is only one, and it is not needed, from a
> > stylistic point of view.
> > This article is a very good example : Some articles
> > may not have commas,
> > unless they are long and complete enough to be
> > considerated as articles.
>
> I never said the comma technic was the right one to
> count an article as a "good" article
> Your example is an extrem case. I see no pb with you
> adding a comma here.
>
> But all the articles you did this morning, with commas
> in comments are much poorer than SHA-1, and imho
> hardly deserve the name of encyclopedic articles.
> Dictionary articles yes, but not encyclopedia
> articles.
Dictionary, encyclopedia articles... That's another problem.

> This is a dictionary article, with commas in comment :
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=3DAiguchi&diff=3D0&oldid=3D343=
> 43
I think that the being who did this just cannot understand French... ;->

> =20
> > That's why I have added commas to every article
> > which doesn't have
> > one... C'est aussi simple que =E7a.
> > =20
> > > Why not a mix between the comma method, and a
> > certain
> > > number of words ? (at least people will know how
> > to
> > > count ;-))
> >=20
> > Greater-than-zero-size check is simple and efficient
> > enough...
>
> It is simple. But it is slightly ridiculous. Certainly
> not the best way to convince newcomers we are a great
> resource

Encore une histoire "d'image de marque", Anthere... Encore un diff?rend entre nous ? ce sujet.

> By the way, I am happy that Tim took some time to
> improve some of Tim articles. Have you seen ?
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banane

Tim is *very* nice ! But who are you talking about ? Athymik, Athyrance, Atrhystant, Athypique, Athyrail ?

> > Athymik (athymik at ifrance.com)
> > Cl=E9 publique
> > http://athymik.devveb.org/public_key.asc
>
> Attention, cl=E9 publique, nous avons affaire =E0 un Tim
> certifi=E9 !
>
> Ant

> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Dis Anthere, tu nous fais un petit sondage l? ? Yahoons-nous ?
Et si on r?pond, est-ce qu'on a droit au "Tax Center" en plus ?

--
Athymik (athymik at ifrance.com)
Cl? publique	http://athymik.devveb.org/public_key.asc


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] User:Black Widow

body:
User:Black Widow is claiming to be DW's widow and is now editing the same kind
of articles DW used to edit.

A sarcastic eulogy to DW is at;
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Black_Widow

Just an FYI for the DW watchers.

--mav

WikiKarma
The usual at [[March 9]]


from_name: tarquin

body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>Regarding the FWappler flap:
>
>Let's take it back to the Wikipedia website, i.e., in Talk pages:
>* [[talk:line]]
>* [[talk:curve]]
>* user talk pages for FWappler, etc.
>
>I think we can "straighten" out his "twisty" approach and lead him on the "path" to Wiki paradise. Or else we can translate his "veering" prose into "plane" English.
>
>
>
If you can get Fwappler to communicate in a way we understand,.... well,
wow. I'd be impressed :-)

>
>


body:
On Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 11:25:20PM +0000, Tomos at Wikipedia wrote:
>Assuming that you are talking about English Wikipedia, I guess
>you could be right about the bias. But it doesn't mean everyone
>is biased like those extremests described in the aritcle. At least
>I know some American-born Americans highly critical of the
>said bias in mainstream mass media.
>
>And the opponents of the extremests may be unbiased as well.
>
>Those who are highly interested in the matter may be more likely to
>have a strong POV.
>
>Some would say "Wikipedia is not" a place to discuss politics.
>
>And with different biases, we can perhaps still work together. At
>least some of us can.

The issue is that people with certain biases do whatever they want, and
when someone tries to deal with them, the person trying to correct the
bias is the one that either gets shouted down, and leaves the Wikipedia
voluntarily, or finally gets banned by Jimmy.  So the bias stays in and
gets worse and worse.

The Judeocentrism article, for instance, is worded to give the
impression that if you believe there is such a thing, you are a frothing
at the mouth Jew hater.  This is the state of the article after a flood
of protest saying the article shouldn't even exist, even though similar
articles existed on Christianity and Islam.

I was banned for trying to keep the article in existance through
peaceful and polite persistence.  Something is very wrong with the
Wikipedia when a clear cut case of NPOV violation is encouraged in this
manner.

Whether SOME people are biased isn't the issue; the issue is whether
these people have the power to prevent others from correcting their bias
through means most foul and lacking in fairness.

Jonathan

--
                     Geek House Productions, Ltd.

  Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
  QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
  General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998

Phone:   604-435-1205
Email:   djw at reactor-core.org
Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC  V5R2W2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 307 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20030312/2557e2fe/attachment.pgp


subject: [Wikitech-l] resend: many errors

body:
I already send this two hours ago, but didn't get through:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Many requests timed out in the last days, but now I'm getting error
messages when I try to delete pages:

----

Fehler in der Datenbank

aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklop?die

Es gab einen Syntaxfehler in der Datenbankabfrage. Das k?nnte eine
illegale Suchanfrage sein (siehe Wikipedia durchsuchen), oder ein
Softwarefehler. Die letzte Datenbankabfrage lautete:

    INSERT INTO brokenlinks (bl_from,bl_to) VALUES
(12369,'Wohlstand'),(14498,'Wohlstand')

aus der Funktion "Article::doDeleteArticle". MySQL meldete den Fehler
"1030: Got error 127 from table handler".

----

And "too many connections" messages.

Do we get too many visitors through google, now that we're indexed
again? I have the impression that there are more anonymous edits on the
German Wikipedia.

Brion, maybe you could update the statistic pages for further
examination.

Kurt


from_name: Stevertigo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bias / Arab Israeli editing conf...

body:
>Tomos: I offer some reasons to think twice before you act on. But I do
> not mean to be highly critical of your idea.

SV- How about one very long thought? And I never made any generalizations
about extremist behaviour on the WP. Just a bias... like a car with bad
alignment, that you have to compensate for a pull in a lateral direction.

> Some would say "Wikipedia is not" a place to discuss politics.

Let them speak all the baseless nonsense they want; politics is inherent to
nearly every endeavor involving 2 or more people.   Where do you stand
Tomos? Avoid flame wars? I wonder how this is possibly done, and by what
species on Earth this is done by?  Its nobodys job to not offend
nyone....  -(read that again.)  Its our job to engage in building articles
up which represent the truth, and not just a part of it.. I think this also
carries over into how these articles are organized... and how balanced
overall their representation of material there is.

Im curious - you included a link to a Lir issue... *perhaps* suggesting an
outcome for those who "cant get along". This smells either like a threat, or
a misconception about where these issues are bound to lead, and how they are
bound to be resolved. Thats a lot of *prophesy for a seemingly benign link
on a mailing list. -SV


body:
>The flames have been going on for months.  The discussion needs to
>happen so the flames can be put out.  If they spread to the mailing
>list, that is not an excuse for forestalling the discussion and allowing
>the current bad situation to continue.

John, youre doing a couple things here: 1. using *the rhetoric* again...
avoid it. Its not useful. Translating the above: Flame wars are avoidable if
there are rules agreed to regarding conduct. There ought not be limits on
discourse for fear of causing people to be offended. 2. Youre putting all of
this on Jim. Knock that shit off.
He may be able to work the server, redirect the Wikipedia URL back to
bomis.com, erase every piece of data ever written to the server.... but hes
not God, and he cant make things all better for you at the wave of a hand.
This thing works here on one thing only - that is: Interest. If he starts
dictating terms right and left, then there will be dimished interest from
the public; and hes avoided doing this, for these reasons precisely. An
analogy, would be; A nuclear-armed country *may* have severe means at their
disposal, but what good would come of it? If I read you right, John, you
cross the line in continuing to rag on Jim for simply knowing and staying
the course, and his role.

>I quote here the learned Professor Noam Chomsky, in his book "The Common
>Good", published in 1998.  In context, he wrote this paragraph about how
>the media in the USA (and many other parts of the world) operate:

>    The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly
 >   limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively
 >  debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and
 > dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free
 >   thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the
 >   system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the
 >   debate.

You can't argue with Rabbi Chomsky. Unless youve got something other than
the plain truth in mind.

>It has driven away several credentialed contributors that I
>know of.  And this fact prevents Wikipedia from gaining much academic
>esteem.

This may simply be due to perception. I remember RK criticising SL and Danny
for calling him on his outbursts, by saying essentially: "If *we* dont make
a stand here, *we'll* be "forced out" just like in Newsgroup X." Aside from
the rich psychological study material in that statement alone, it does
represent a victim mentality, or an aspect of human powerlessness that makes
people think that they cant have a place. What Jim is really against is the
setup of a team-sport mentality with several people here vs several people
there. It belies the nature of sysopdom, as well, as were all human and even
sysops will take sides, as they often do now. The assertion that Jim (?)
made that sysops must avoid argument is idealistic and does not represent
the reality.

>You (Jim) always seem to come down on the side of those who are pro-Israel
>and/or populist, without regard to the merits or facts.  That is your
>bias.  As long as you decide who gets to play on your wiki, it will
>reflect your personal biases.

I dont know this. I'm just stating my cause and interests intelligently
here - without rhetoric (but perhaps a few double-entendres, however) Before
I get back into it with anyone; being ganged up on is not my idea of fun.
Like I told you before, I can see why Jim banned you - not because of
politics at all, but because of the spite you show for other people, and a
kind of desperation in your tone that belies your demonstrated capacity for
reason. = SV


subject: [WikiEN-l] Bias Arab- Israeli conflict

body:
>From the Wikipedia-L List:

>Clutch wrote: The flames have been going on for months.  The discussion
needs to
>happen so the flames can be put out.  If they spread to the mailing
>list, that is not an excuse for forestalling the discussion and allowing
>the current bad situation to continue.

John, youre doing a couple things here: 1. using *the rhetoric* again...
avoid it. Its not useful. Translating the above: Flame wars are avoidable if
there are rules agreed to regarding conduct. There ought not be limits on
discourse for fear of causing people to be offended. 2. Youre putting all of
this on Jim. Knock that shit off.
He may be able to work the server, redirect the Wikipedia URL back to
bomis.com, erase every piece of data ever written to the server.... but hes
not God, and he cant make things all better for you at the wave of a hand.
This thing works on one thing only - that is: Interest. If he starts
dictating terms right and left, then there will be dimished interest from
the public; and hes avoided doing this, for these reasons precisely. An
analogy, would be; A nuclear-armed country *may* have severe means at their
disposal, but what good would come of it? If I read you right, John, you
cross the line in continuing to rag on Jim for simply knowing and staying
the course, and his role.

>I quote here the learned Professor Noam Chomsky, in his book "The Common
>Good", published in 1998.  In context, he wrote this paragraph about how
>the media in the USA (and many other parts of the world) operate:

>    The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly
 >   limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively
 >  debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and
 > dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free
 >   thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the
 >   system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the
 >   debate.

You can't argue with Rabbi Chomsky. Unless youve got something other than
the plain truth in mind.

>It has driven away several credentialed contributors that I
>know of.  And this fact prevents Wikipedia from gaining much academic
>esteem.

This may simply be due to perception. I remember RK criticising SL and Danny
for calling him on his outbursts, by saying essentially: "If *we* dont make
a stand here, *we'll* be "forced out" just like in Newsgroup X." Aside from
the rich psychological study material in that statement alone, it does
represent a victim mentality, or an aspect of human powerlessness that makes
people think that they cant have a place. What Jim is really against is the
setup of a team-sport mentality with several people here vs several people
there. It belies the nature of sysopdom, as well, as were all human and even
sysops will take sides, as they often do now. The assertion that Jim (?)
made that sysops must avoid argument is idealistic and does not represent
the reality.

>You (Jim) always seem to come down on the side of those who are pro-Israel
>and/or populist, without regard to the merits or facts.  That is your
>bias.  As long as you decide who gets to play on your wiki, it will
>reflect your personal biases.

I dont know this. I'm just stating my cause and interests intelligently
here - without rhetoric (but perhaps a few double-entendres, however) Before
I get back into it with anyone; being ganged up on is not my idea of fun.
Like I told you before, I can see why Jim banned you - not because of
politics at all, but because of the spite you show for other people, and a
kind of desperation in your tone that belies your demonstrated capacity for
reason. = SV


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

body:
Feaux?

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org]On Behalf Of Jay Bowks
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 16:29
To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
> Option: Only articles that contain the word "Foo" should be counted.
> 1 (very good): FooMaster[...]
> 5: KungFoo

Objection! The assortium of world
language wikipedias object on the
grounds that the orthography of
"Foo" proves to be too anglo-centric.

A more international spelling would
need to be accepted into the vote.

A resolution calling for the immediate
dismissal of "Foo" and a motion for
re-spelling as "Fu" is now on the floor.

"FuBar" would thus be more in tune
with "Fu Man Chu".

Amicomicalmente ;-)
Jay B.

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Jay Bowks

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Article count reFoorm

body:
From: "Erik Moeller" <erik_moeller at gmx.de>
> Option: Only articles that contain the word "Foo" should be counted.
> 1 (very good): FooMaster[...]
> 5: KungFoo

Objection! The assortium of world
language wikipedias object on the
grounds that the orthography of
"Foo" proves to be too anglo-centric.

A more international spelling would
need to be accepted into the vote.

A resolution calling for the immediate
dismissal of "Foo" and a motion for
re-spelling as "Fu" is now on the floor.

"FuBar" would thus be more in tune
with "Fu Man Chu".

Amicomicalmente ;-)
Jay B.


from_name: Thomas Corell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> When the load on the machine goes over a certain number, sendmail
> takes a break.  The changes that Brion made have the load running high
> -- over 20.  This keeps the website going, but has the unfortunate
> side effect of preventing mail distribution.
> I'm going to cut the MaxClients setting to 100 for a little while, to
> let the mailing lists function for a bit, and then bump it back up.

The problem I see with mail and Web on the same host is, that if
something goes wrong on the website you can't send information via
email, because it is down/queuing only too.

The only thing left to do for reporting an error is searching Brion's
email address (or some other). And instead of having 2 or 3 emails via
the tech-list, Brion gets some hundred in his mail-box, because noboby
knows that the error is known.

I do not know about the hosting, but if you can connet an Intel PI with
a 10 GB HD near the Wiki-Host...move the mail Service, it will be faster.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> I'd wager sendmail can be configured with a higher threshold. (But, since
> sendmail was designed with satanic powers to drive men mad, I don't know
> how to configure it so.)

You probably searching for this:

sendmail.cf:
QueueLA=<value>  => at which average load (see uptime) starting queuing
only.
RefuseLA=<value>  => at which avarage load sendmail starts refusing
connenctions.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] many errors

body:
Kurt Jansson wrote:
  > And "too many connections" messages.
> Do we get too many visitors through google, now that we're indexed
> again? I have the impression that there are more anonymous edits on the
> German Wikipedia.

I think this depends on Brions changes to the apache-connentions. The
difference between Apache-connections(240) and DB-connections(250) is to
small. As far as I remember I got some errors today about to many
persistend db-connects. I got it everytime it try to get 'Neue Artikel'
on de.wiki. Sorry, but I did not wrote it down or mailed.

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Hi Holiness Albert Jascher

body:
He definitely needs banning.
Zoe
 daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:This guy, a self proclaimed  prophet, has been trolling since early this morning. Now he has taken to vandalizing user pages. Can he please be dealt with accordingly?

Danny

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030312/4c7cb916/attachment.htm


subject: [WikiEN-l] acapedia.org

body:
What is acapedia.org?  Why, when I go to it, does it send me to the main Wikipedia page?

Zoe

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030312/0787a4ee/attachment.htm


body:
> Danny wrote: I am truly glad that there are certain astute individuals who are so absolutely free > of bias themselves that they can share their open-mindedness with the rest of us.

I share your above enthusiasm. Bias is relative to the issues involved. For example the idea of a recusal, is designed for a reason; to limit a conflict of interest, where closeness to an issue presents a potential problem. Recusal, however is not applicable here, even if it should be. - 'Prophet' SV
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20030312/c6683b4d/attachment.htm


from_name: Sheldon Rampton

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Footnotes?

body:
Thomas Corell wrote:

>I see footnotes or end notes in paper-based publishing and in an
>academic context, but never seen a encyclopedia with end notes.

I'm pretty sure that I *have* seen encyclopedia entries with end
notes, but can't swear for sure.

>Don't forget possible targets like publishing Wikipedia in paper-based
>form. Take a proper paper-based encyclopedia and try to imagine how bad
>end-notes would look like.

This argument doesn't hold up, for the following reasons:

(1) The last I heard, there wasn't much chance that Wikipedia would
be published anytime soon in a paper-based form.

(2) Even if it *were* published in a paper-based form, it would be a
trivial task to write code that would strip out end notes if so
desired. Something like this would have to be done in any case for
Wiki links and external hyperlinks. (Underlined text in different
colors ALSO looks bad in a paper-based document, especially when
there's no way to click on them and go to the hyperlinked resource.)

(3) Actually, end note tags might make it *easier* to produce a
paper-based document. Right now, many articles contain embedded
hyperlinks that point to URLs outside of Wikipedia. Exporting those
articles for use in a paper document would require someone to make a
decision about what to do with those embedded hyperlinks. Do you just
ignore them? Do you put them in parentheses in the middle of the
article, where they would break up the text and make everything ugly?
Do you stick all the embedded hyperlinks at the bottom of the
article, as "pseudo end notes"? End note markup tags would give the
*authors* of articles a way of indicating which of these choices they
prefer, rather than leaving it up to some deterministic algorithm.
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Hey, that actually wasn't so bad! *tweak tweak*

I see I have to mail tips directly to you ;) The mailing list is too
slow ;) And read the list using the lists web archiv, to get the
questions faster :)

Smurf
--
-------------------------  Anthill inside! ---------------------------


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Hi Holiness Albert Jascher

body:
This guy, a self proclaimed  prophet, has been trolling since early this
morning. Now he has taken to vandalizing user pages. Can he please be dealt
with accordingly?

Danny
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030312/69a6c013/attachment.htm


subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
Danny complined: Now we have an article called "Turkish atrocities against Kurds" which consists of a random selection of cut and pasted articles from other sources. It exceeds 35 K and the heading says "Notes for an article." Wikipedia is not a place to stick random notes, newspaper articles or whatnot. I believe this can be an article. It can even be an NPOV article (though it isn't now, because apart from political rhetoric, the article barely documents the atrocities it claims to describe). Can we at least formulate a policy on this type of behavior.

Steve: Nonsense! In fact we should have *note pages* in addition to talk pages! Great idea Danny, Im glad you came up with it. Reason? Im not in the mood to add material and have it mercillessly chopped up by a bunch of bored piranhas... Im cooking my meal before I serve it. First the ingredients! Be well, Dan. _~~~
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030312/60fdeb51/attachment.htm


body:
I am truly glad that there are certain astute individuals who are so
absolutely free of bias themselves that they can share their open-mindedness
with the rest of us.

Gimme a break.

Danny
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20030312/1ffc95c5/attachment.htm


subject: [Wikipedia-l] copy and paste

body:
From: "Pedro M.V." <macv at interlap.com.ar>
> To not loss your work, select and copy  the text you have written in an
wikipedia article before press the "Save button" or you risk loss your work
if wikipedia server is down or give you a "too many connections message".

Gracias,
Esto es una idea que debo usar cuando
hago cambios a las p?ginas. Muy facil
y muy efectivo!

Thanks for the tip, definitely something
to keep in mind. Easy to do and yet
quite effective. I appreciate your tip!

Con saludos,
Jay B.


from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: The Wikipedia file format

body:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:

>Magnus Manske writes:

>>Why not "*.wiki"?

Simplicity!

>There is more than one wiki and no file format matches the other.  Thus:
>"*.wikipedia".

I originally used "wiki markup language" (WML) on the grounds that
I wasn't going to distinguish between the different wiki markup languages.

>OTOH, using Emacs a file suffix isn't necessarily needed; I can setup
>Emacs to recognize all files in a special directory as wikipedia files.

I don't need a suffix either -- I just do it to be cute.
I'm sorry that I brought it up.

-- Toby


from_name: Diana M Hsieh

subject: [Wikitech-l] design changes

body:
Hi folks,

I spent most of today getting wikipedia3 up and running on my (currently
private development) server.  Functionally, all seems to be working well.
(Given that I'm a PERL and PostgreSQL kind of gal, I consider the working
install to be nothing short of a small miracle!)

My big challenge at present is to figure out how to substantially change
the design of the site.  From what I can see, that design is determined by
the combination of the style sheets, Skin.php, and OutputPage.php.  It
looks like a small nightmare to fuss with.

Is there some approach that might make it relatively easy or even somewhat
easier?

Oh, and thanks for the excellent software! :-) diana.

*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|          diana mertz hsieh *--* diana at dianahsieh.com      |
|               web *--* http://www.dianahsieh.com          |
|               blog *--* http://www.noodlefood.org         |
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*


from_name: Tomos at Wikipedia

body:
Hello, Stevertigo:

I offer some reasons to think twice before you act on. But I do
not mean to be highly critical of your idea.

And the article was interesting anyway. Thanks for that.

Assuming that you are talking about English Wikipedia, I guess
you could be right about the bias. But it doesn't mean everyone
is biased like those extremests described in the aritcle. At least
I know some American-born Americans highly critical of the
said bias in mainstream mass media.

And the opponents of the extremests may be unbiased as well.

Those who are highly interested in the matter may be more likely to
have a strong POV.

Some would say "Wikipedia is not" a place to discuss politics.

And with different biases, we can perhaps still work together. At
least some of us can.
(http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-February/001005.html)

And some would want to avoid exhausting flaming war - though those people
can just stay away from it and work on something else.

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: AltGr junk (Was: Cliches)

body:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:20:35 -0800, Toby Bartels
<toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:

> Tarquin wrote:
>
>> Jason Williams wrote:
>
>>> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>>>> What is 'AltGr'?  Is that the one naive people like me call "the
>>>> Windows key"?
>
>>> The right-hand Alt key.
>
>> AFAIK US keyboards don't have it
>
> I'm sitting at a US keyboard now (made by Sun) that has it.
> Probably most keyboards on Linux boxes don't have it,
> since they use standard keyboards with few neat keys --
> maybe even a Micro$oft one that certainly has no AltGr.
>
> But Jason's response suggests that Linux is often set up
> when using these keyboards to that the right-hand Alt key
> will run as AltGr.  I never heard that, but maybe it's so.
>
> That said, even my Sun isn't set up to use AltGr this way.
> What I use instead is the greatest key in the world, Compose.
> If you have no Compose key, then your keyboard suxors ^_^.
>
The right-hand ALt key is indeed the AltGr key when you switch to many
European keyboard layouts, and on windows it's action is mimiced by Ctrl-
Alt. Which is why it is bad for an application to use Ctrl-Alt-key
shortcuts. (Opera had this problem until they disabled all Ctrl-Alt
shortcuts in form fields.

--
Richard Grevers


subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

body:
Now we have an article called "Turkish atrocities against Kurds" which
consists of a random selection of cut and pasted articles from other sources.
It exceeds 35 K and the heading says "Notes for an article." Wikipedia is not
a place to stick random notes, newspaper articles or whatnot. I believe this
can be an article. It can even be an NPOV article (though it isn't now,
because apart from political rhetoric, the article barely documents the
atrocities it claims to describe). Can we at least formulate a policy on this
type of behavior.

Danny
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20030313/06156bf3/attachment.htm


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Hi Holiness Albert Jascher

body:
  daniwo59 at aol.com wrote:

>This guy, a self proclaimed  prophet, has been trolling since early
>this morning. Now he has taken to vandalizing user pages. Can he
>please be dealt with accordingly?

Second the motion...and given his profession, I think it's safe to
assume that he has already been forewarned and knows it's coming. ;)
--
--------------------------------
|  Sheldon Rampton
|  Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
|  Author of books including:
|     Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
|     Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
|     Mad Cow USA
|     Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Internal anchors (Was: Footnotes?)

body:
On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 09:50:12AM +1300, Richard Grevers wrote:
> removing whitespace is NOT a matter of choice. What delimits the end of an
> URL? Whitespace.
>
> So  and  ought both resolve to the
> same anchor:
> There is a risk that they will match . Some
> browsers do allow spaces at present, but it shouldn't be relied upon.

Can't we just s/ /_/g as we usually do with URLs ?


from_name: Chuck Smith

subject: [Wikipedia-l] not voting

body:
I just wanted to say that I'm not voting, because I
think it's a waste of time and effort and completely
against the wiki way.  If you want to decide things
like this, go ahead, but I still think the solution is
consensus and not democracy.  Plus, it's such a silly
matter to vote on, I don't care what you guys decide.
Have fun with the voting game.  I'm just tired of
reading messages on Wikipedia-L about it.  Oh, and
btw, I think an article should count if it's 50+
bytes.  ;-)

Chuck

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Albert Jacher

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Stop your stupid, hostile activity against Holy Prophet
 Albert Jacher!

body:
User:Danny
User:Tannin
User:Notheruser

Stop deleting my text!!!

How can you be so rude and stupid?!<br>
Stop your hostile stupid activity against me!

Stop your hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

Who are you to judge me whether i am the Chosen by God Holy Prophet or
not?!
ARE YOU GOD?!?!?!

I do not suppose i represent YOU!

So stop deleting my articles and my text modifications.

I assume that this encyclopedia is just for humans on planet Earth and not
especially for Jews and Christians... If i am wrong about it tell me!

It is not my intention to edit jewish or christian or muslim texts.

But if this medium is intended to be a free medium and magazine of
information, then leave me alone and let me inform humans on planet about
wisdom unlike other religions did.

It this encylopedia is for arrogant Jews and Christians only then stop
proclaiming this wikipedia as "free" because it is simply false statement.

I am not very much surprised that stupidity and evil rule the world, but i
admit that meeting so much evil and stupidity right here in GNU
wikipedia.org is a surprice for me.

I wish you much more good and wisdom!
Xsalom Alejhem!

~~~~
Albert Jacher, Speaker of God
"If you do not support the good -- then you support the evil."


from_name: Jimmy Wales

in_reply_to: <20030312234209.GA6865@reactor-core.org>; from krooger@debian.org on Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 03:42:09PM -0800

body:
Jonathan Walther wrote:
> >Certainly potential bias does deserve a centralized and open
> >discussion.
>
> Your phrasing here seems to indicate you don't wish to acknowledge the
> fact of already existing bias in the Wikipedia.  It does exist.

Sure it does.  I'm sure that some of the bias you deliberately
inserted is still in there, waiting to be repaired.  For example.

> You always seem to come down on the side of those who are pro-Israel
> and/or populist, without regard to the merits or facts.

This is simply false.  Indeed, I'm under the very strong impression
that more contributors are pro-Palestinian than not.

I come down firmly on the side of those who seek to work
co-operatively, and who seek to eliminate bias through a process of
kind and thoughtful accomodation, as against those who make
provocative and biased edits.

--Jimbo


in_reply_to: <005601c2e90a$81556fc0$c679e90c@attbi.com>; from stevertigo@attbi.com on Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 06:44:44PM -0800

body:
Stevertigo wrote:
>What Jim is really against is the setup of a team-sport mentality
>with several people here vs several people there.

I think this was very well said.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: mailing list stuck?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> > and m4 is
> > the suggested (in the sendmail install documentation) format for
> > sendmail configuration, from which actual .cf files are built.
>
> Feel free to mess with it, my good man.  *shudder*

Just in case some other wikitech members don't know anything about
sendmail, I'll explain Brion's *shudder*.  The sendmail.cf file is in
more or less the original format that sendmail.cf files have been in
for years: virtually indistinguishable in places from modem noise.

When the fine folks at sendmail realized that the complexity of the
config file had grown so high that virtually no one understood how to
use it, they came up with a brilliant (?) idea.

Now what you're supposed to do is write *another* config file, in M4
format (a format no one else uses for anything) and compile that
(using a program no one else uses for anything) to create a
sendmail.cf.

It's all frightening and insane.

--Jimbo


body:
Jonathan Walther wrote:
> The issue is that people with certain biases do whatever they want, and
> when someone tries to deal with them, the person trying to correct the
> bias is the one that either gets shouted down, and leaves the Wikipedia
> voluntarily, or finally gets banned by Jimmy.  So the bias stays in and
> gets worse and worse.

I understand that this is what you think happened in your case, so we
don't need to discuss that right now.  But perhaps you can point to
other cases to illustrate your point more generally?

> The Judeocentrism article, for instance, is worded to give the
> impression that if you believe there is such a thing, you are a
> frothing at the mouth Jew hater.

This is just simply not true.  There is absolutely nothing in the
article that even hints at such an impression.

> I was banned for trying to keep the article in existance through
> peaceful and polite persistence.

And this is *particularly* untrue.

--Jimbo


body:
Stevertigo;

First, a correction:
"And the opponents of the extremests may be biased as well"
was what I wanted to say. (instead of "unbiased").

>Where do you stand Tomos?

I'm not informed enough on this issue. And I don't think I can
mediate that kind of open discussion. I have other things I can
do better, too.
But I didn't mean to stop you. I only hoped that maybe some
cautions would help you to make better decisions and
preparations on how to do what.

Or maybe they were to obvious to be helpful. (I don't know.) In
any case, wish you a good luck.

>Im curious - you included a link to a Lir issue... *perhaps* >suggesting

I wanted to remind you of that some say collaboration on wikipedia
can be done even among those with opposite biases. Ed's posting was
an example of it, as I understood.

I'm still learning about Lir stuff, (primarily to know how things
could go and make use of that knowledge for Japanese wikipedia)
so I didn't mean that kind of rich and subtle connotations that
you smelled.

Though, of course, I think talking openly about each others
biases among various hard-believers on a sensitive issue
can turn into flame war or lingering conflicts among participants.

Anyway, getting to the bottom of the issue and producing a NPOV
article would be a great achievement, and I am among the
beneficiaries of such an article.

best,

Tomos

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Holy Prophet Albert J-ch-r!

body:
Albert Jacher wrote:
> Stop your hostile activity against Holy Prophet Albert Jacher!

I hereby declare J-ch-rism to be the official religion of wikipedia.
We are now all his disciples.

His name is so holy, his ideas so exquisite, that they may not be
uttered or written by anyone.  We shall honor his sacred name by
deleting all references to him and his ideas immediately on sight.

We shall refer to him as AJ, after AJ Simon from the old television
show "Simon and Simon" -- see the similarity?

The Holy Prophet:
http://www.republika.pl/albertan/towas/img/aj01.jpg

A J Simon:
http://www.tvtome.com/images/people/9/6/23-5569.jpg

Well, anyhow, you all know what to do.

--Jimbo


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikitech-l] design changes

body:
You might start with editing language.php

Fred

> From: Diana M Hsieh <diana at dianahsieh.com>
> Reply-To: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:19:46 -0700 (MST)
> To: <wikitech-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] design changes
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I spent most of today getting wikipedia3 up and running on my (currently
> private development) server.  Functionally, all seems to be working well.
> (Given that I'm a PERL and PostgreSQL kind of gal, I consider the working
> install to be nothing short of a small miracle!)
>
> My big challenge at present is to figure out how to substantially change
> the design of the site.  From what I can see, that design is determined by
> the combination of the style sheets, Skin.php, and OutputPage.php.  It
> looks like a small nightmare to fuss with.
>
> Is there some approach that might make it relatively easy or even somewhat
> easier?
>
> Oh, and thanks for the excellent software! :-) diana.
>
> *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
> |          diana mertz hsieh *--* diana at dianahsieh.com      |
> |               web *--* http://www.dianahsieh.com          |
> |               blog *--* http://www.noodlefood.org         |
> *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Turks and Kurds

in_reply_to: <cc.19cb5a08.2ba1761c@aol.com>; from daniwo59@aol.com on Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 12:50:20AM -0500

body:
It sounds like a bad idea to me.  If people want to take notes,
couldn't they use a page in the user space, or on meta, or something
like that?

--Jimbo


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

body:
Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> writes:

>> I suggest use WPL WikiPedia Language ;)
> Why not "*.wiki"?

There is more than one wiki and no file format matches the other.  Thus:
"*.wikipedia".

OTOH, using Emacs a file suffix isn't necessarily needed; I can setup
Emacs to recognize all files in a special directory as wikipedia files.

--
ke at suse.de (work) / keichwa at gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Connection Ratio

body:
On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 06:26, Thomas Corell wrote:
> Got one Brion ;)
>
> Warning: Too many connections in
> /usr/local/apache/htdocs-de/w/DatabaseFunctions.php on line 26
> Konnte keine Verbindung zur Datenbank auf 127.0.0.1 herstellen
> Too many connections
>
> Next iteration step apache vs. DB connects please :)

Okay, we're now at mysql max 400, apache max 175. This will allow
*every* apache process to double up on connections and still have a few
spare. Grumble grumble.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20030313/d9d529f9/attachment.pgp>