body:
On 22/02/07, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/21/07, Parker Peters <parkerpeters1002 at gmail.com> wrote:

> > (A) "Scarlet Letter" abuse. Users clearing/archiving warnings that they've
> > already seen, or clearing off bad-faith tagging such as "suspected
> > sockpuppet" tags or "warning" templates placed by abusive users trying to
> > harass another user (usually claiming that a difference of opinion on a
> > content matter is "vandalism), are routinely targeted by administrators. The
> > goal of both abusive users and administrators is to rile the editor up. This
> > is deliberate provocation, completely incivil, and all too common - yet it
> > is regularly given a free pass by the administrator community.

> If I put a warning tag on a user talk page, it's because that user has
> done something meriting a warning, not to "rile the editor up".  They
> should not be removed because they serve as a notice to other
> administrators that this user has a history of negative behavior.
> Tags placed in bad faith can be dealt with like any other abuse.

This issue has come up before. Admins should be smart enough to check
the talk page history.

> > Administrators need to understand: BLOCKING SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET THEM
> > MAD. It is an action that is agressive and adversarial. No matter what the
> > temperament of the user, they will feel angry over this. They are likely to
> > leave a message that lashes out in anger at whoever did it, PARTICULARLY if
> > it is not justified within the rules or they already feel picked-upon by the
> > admin or his/her cronies.

> The fact that a block gets someone MAD does not justify further abuse,
> and the talk page should not be used to give a troll a soapbox to
> attack people.

In an ideal world, it would be better to calm things down before a
block if possible.

That said, if someone is clearly being a dick, that's of course a
different matter.

- d.


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Jeremy Cushman

subject: [WikiEN-l] Proposal: increased bot edit rates on en:wp

body:
On 2/22/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If only we could limit vandalbots to six edits a minute ...
>
>
> - d.

I disagree. I would say the exact opposite, but force vandalbots to put the
other vandalbots on their whitelists.
I assume you're talking about vandalism-reverting bots, not
vandalism-creating bots, by the way.
Anonymous vandalism-creating bots are already limited to eight edits per
minute technically, and logged-in vandalbots are easily blocked.
--Mets501


from_name: Keith Old

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Golfer Fuzzy Zoeller sues law firm over allegation of
	malicious edit to his article on Wikipedia

body:
G'day folks,

Please see attached a Miami Herald article about golfer Fuzzy Zoeller
launching a legal action against a law firm for a defamatory edit to his
Wikipedia article.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/golf/16752834.htm

Regards

Keith Old


from_name: George Herbert

subject: [WikiEN-l] Now we're ready for prime time...

body:
On 2/22/07, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/23/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> > I prefer not to believe everything I hear on an American sitcoms.
> > Writers of fiction in particular can be allowed certain licence on the
> > road to making their stories work.
>
> Heh. Sitcom accuses Wikipedia of unreliability. Wikipedia accuses
> sitcom of unreliability. Where will it end?????//

Unreliability accuses Wikipedia of Sitcom.

(Film at 11...)

--
-george william herbert
george.herbert at gmail.com


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Intellectuals relationship visualization

body:
On 22/02/07, Parker Conrad <parkerconrad at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi -- someone posted a link to a neat tool a while back, and I'm
> trying to track it down again. It was a webapp that used wikipedia to
> visualize influence relationships between different intellectuals --
> so you could, for example, trace the paths of influence from Plato to
> Kant. Is there anyone who could email with the link to this
> application?

http://mike-love.net/

"Genealogy of Influence"

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Live mirrors

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Pill wrote:
>> Some Wikipedias have special pages where users can report abuse via live
>> mirrors. Unfortunately, the procedure of dealing with them is not really
>> clear, so that on German Wikipedia e.g. there are lots of reports but
>> nobody does anything against the mirrors because there is no suitable
>> place where to request blocking them. The mailing list is quite a bad
>> place and reporting them to the server admins individually is not very
>> nice, also. Tim Starling proposed to make a Meta page about that and
>> I've created one, see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Live_mirrors. I
>> think it would be a bit easier for the responsible people if people
>> reported all live mirrors there than on single Wikis.
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>>     Pill (wiki.pill @ gmail.com)
>
> Something even better would be to report them in bugzilla. We could
> create a "live mirror" component to the "Wikimedia" product. Then admins
> will be able to handle them properly (since most of them already use
> bugzilla for MediaWiki).
>

New remote loaders are set up every day. I was thinking that it would be
better to have a list of pending remote loaders that we can block in a
batch, once a week or so. A bug report for each one seems a bit excessive.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: geni

body:
On 2/22/07, Luna <lunasantin at gmail.com> wrote:
> Long-term things like the interwiki bots arguing, that's a
> little trickier, but a high-speed end-of-the-world botwar isn't something I
> expect to see any time soon.

IT's been seen with various vandle bots.

--
geni


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Fwd: I have a problem with CheckUser as administered
 by JPGordon

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Parker Peters stated for the record:
> Given that The_Epopt/Sean Barrett is an arbcom member? Not bloody likely.
>
> Parker

Wrong.  I am /not/ a member of the ArbComm.  Given this rather
fundamental error, what else are you wrong about?

- --
 Sean Barrett     | A thunder of jets in an open sky,
 sean at epoptic.com | A streak of gray and a cheerful "Hi!"
                  | A loop, a whirl, a vertical climb,
                  | And once again you know it's time....
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFF3m/p/SVOiq2uhHMRAkTfAKDV1HXBzRLzubj50dQnsrp2aqsUjACbBdiC
+eZfrMBO4NSpZutQCR+yNNA=
=fVuM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [WikiEN-l] Moderation on this mailing list

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Parker Peters stated for the record:
> Final series, # 13/14/15: Steel359, after insulting the user for reporting
> Sean Barrett/The_Epopt's abusive locking of user page ...

Wrong.  I have /never/ locked any user page.  Given this rather
fundamental error of fact, one has to wonder what else you have gotten
wrong . . .  or are simply lying about.

- --
 Sean Barrett     | A thunder of jets in an open sky,
 sean at epoptic.com | A streak of gray and a cheerful "Hi!"
                  | A loop, a whirl, a vertical climb,
                  | And once again you know it's time....
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFF3nEa/SVOiq2uhHMRApnPAJ4wow4SRmAZVLdqgrsAnEr7yYc5gQCgzRf+
MVL2JsJSN61ioY96xB8qGs0=
=678U
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


from_name: Andrew Dunbar

subject: [Wikitech-l] Announcing UsenetSyntax Extension

body:
On 2/22/07, Jim Wilson <wilson.jim.r at gmail.com> wrote:
> It wouldn't notice.  The extension is only concerned with pairs of
> delimiters which occur at word boundaries (one before and one after).

Hmm so it wouldn't work with languages which don't have explicite word
boundaries like Chinese, Japanese, and Thai then )-:

Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)

> So we have the following which all work:
>
>    Simple _word_ highlighting *is fine*
>
>    Usenet syntax within *some tags* works
>
>    This sentence *has bold text _and embedded underlined_ text*
>
> And none of these would work:
>
>     Trying to _wrap_ some tags.
>
>     A sentence spanning *two lines
>     where the second delimiter* occurs on the second line.
>
>     A sentence _with only a leading delimiter
>     ... or only_ a trailing delimiter
>
>     Mismatched *delimiters_ have no effect either.
>
>     Trying to make something *_both underline_* and bold at the same time
> (leaves asterisks, only makes text underlined)
>
>     Or trying to _*have it the other way around*_ (only bold, leaves
> underscores)
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> -- Jim
>
> On 2/21/07, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 21, 2007 at 04:04:29PM -0600, Jim Wilson wrote:
> > > > So, in short, you dealt with it by running late enough that MW got
> > > > precedence, and grabbed all the asterisks it thought it was interested
> > > > in.
> > > >
> > > > That works for me.
> > >
> > > Well yeah, if you wanna put it that way :)
> > >
> > > * *So this will work* just fine
> > > **While this will* still be a 2nd level bullet
> >
> > Which, as far as I'm concerned, is the proper thing.
> >
> > How does it handle this* situation?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -- jra
> > * IE: the use of an asterisk as an actual footnote marker
> > --
> > Jay R. Ashworth
> > jra at baylink.com
> > Designer                          Baylink                             RFC
> > 2100
> > Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87
> > e24
> > St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647
> > 1274
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
http://linguaphile.sf.net


from_name: GerardM

body:
Hoi,
It is nice but for my purposes it is useless .. it has a NC license
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 2/22/07, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 22/02/07, Parker Conrad <parkerconrad at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi -- someone posted a link to a neat tool a while back, and I'm
> > trying to track it down again. It was a webapp that used wikipedia to
> > visualize influence relationships between different intellectuals --
> > so you could, for example, trace the paths of influence from Plato to
> > Kant. Is there anyone who could email with the link to this
> > application?
>
> http://mike-love.net/
>
> "Genealogy of Influence"
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 22/02/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/22/07, Luna <lunasantin at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Long-term things like the interwiki bots arguing, that's a
> > little trickier, but a high-speed end-of-the-world botwar isn't something I
> > expect to see any time soon.

> IT's been seen with various vandle bots.

If only we could limit vandalbots to six edits a minute ...

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Australian Wikipedians in the news

body:
On 22/02/07, Mark Ryan <ultrablue at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/02/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> > /me goes to join up straight away

> Sorry, only Australians allowed. You count as a Pom now, whether you
> like it or not. ;)

I shall wave my passport at you and talk out my nose!

- d.


body:
On 22/02/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Extremely well put! You helped me a great deal when I first came to the
> List. It was my first experience posting to any such list, and I didn't even
> know where to place, or how to format, my messages. Now, to some people's
> annoyance, I can focus on the substance ;-). You are a part of the chemo
> that will hold back the cancer in the culture.

You mean, I make people horribly sick and their hair fall out, but
IT'S ALL FOR THEIR OWN GOOD?

Exxxxxxxxxxxxcellent!

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Live mirrors

body:
Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 08:01:04PM +0000, Tim Starling wrote:
>> New remote loaders are set up every day. I was thinking that it would be
>> better to have a list of pending remote loaders that we can block in a
>> batch, once a week or so. A bug report for each one seems a bit excessive.
>
> Is it possible to identify such machines by their pattern of
> transaction activity, using something akin to an IDB, and set blocking
> /32 rules in the edge router?

Maybe. I'd rather not discuss the precise heuristics I'd use in a public
forum, but there may be room for development along those lines.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Conservapedia

body:
> From: "David Gerard" <dgerard at gmail.com>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Latest comedic parody of Wikipedia
>
> http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page
> http://www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia

Well, actually I'd hoped that maybe a few sympathetic people would
drop over and help out.

Conservapedia has sort of brought it on themselves by positioning
themselves as a conservative counter to Wikipedia, but some of what
they're doing is an interesting idea.

The site has a sort of split personality, but part of it is supposed
to be a learn-by-doing exercise for teenaged students--Christian
homeschooled students, but that's beside the point. The idea is that
by trying to write encyclopedia articles about the subjects they're
studying, they'll learn about them.

The other part is to be the conservative alternative to Wikipedia--
(yes, yes, I know, I don't think Wikipedia has a liberal bias,
either)--and a platform for Andrew Schlafly, so mixed in with
substubs about high-school topics are some fairly sophisticated legal
articles... it's a crazy mix.

I'd been reluctant to mention it here because I didn't want to
attract vandals, but Conservapedia has been mentioned in some liberal
blogs and Conservapedia in the last couple of days has become
inundated by a flood of vandalism. This is a pity, because Andrew
Schlafly, who is sort of the Jimbo Wales of Wikipedia, is for the
most part civil, and open to intellectually honest changes to
articles. Yes, he has some bees in his bonnet, and Wikipedia is one
of them. He is not going to ever believe that the Wikipedia article
on Conservapedia was deleted because of non-notability, not because
of liberal bias:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/
Conservapedia

But I've actually enjoyed working on a Wiki-based encyclopedia that
is so undeveloped that I can easily improve and add articles.

The current crop of vandals is pretty unpleasant. I have the feeling
that here is a parochial school whose doors are open, and bullies
from a nearby public school are coming in and writing obscenities on
the blackboards and throwing books off the shelves. As I say,
Conservapedia brought it on themselves by delusions of grandeur, but
just because someone says their sandcastle is Washington Cathedral is
no reason to kick it down.

If anyone reading this is so hostile toward conservative Christian
creationists as to be unable to keep a commitment to NPOV, please
don't come and vandalize Conservapedia, they're getting all the
vandalism they need.

But I really think it would be nice if a few experienced Wikipedians
would drop in, understanding that Conservapedia _is not Wikipedia_,
--the same practices and policies don't automatically apply--and help
ward off vandals and give this little project, which has its pleasant
aspects, a boost.


from_name: Pill

subject:
[Wikitech-l] How to not display title of one page,
 like Main Page

body:
Liang Chen wrote:
> Hi,
>    I don't want to display the title of the page on main page, like
> wikipedia's main page, how can I do that

Hi, you can either look for that function on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.js (section: main page
fixes) or on
http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.js#.C3.9Cberschrift_der_Hauptseite_verstecken.

Greetings,

    Pill (wiki.pill @ gmail.com)

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from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] User:UBX

body:
It's probably a good idea for your bot to get approval to do that.
Basically, they're already listed in a central place through the
Wikipedia:userboxes page.
Are you doing this to make the typing easier?

Mgm

On 2/22/07, Luna <lunasantin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/22/07, Jeremy Cushman <mets501wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I created the User:UBX account solely to host userboxes migrated via the
> > Userbox Migration (formerly called The German Solution).  I have been
> > using
> > my bot, User:MetsBot, to migrate many useboxes to a subpage of
> > User:UBX.  I
> > started by migrating only clearly controversial userboxes, but then
> moved
> > into userboxes about interests, etc, which was met by opposition from
> > some.
> > Just to be clear, isn't the consensus that we're migrating basically all
> > userboxes which cannot directly help the project, and keeping ones such
> as
> > languages, education level and expertise, WikiProject affiliations, time
> > zones, locations, and a few others?  Should a userbox like "This user
> was
> > a
> > boy scout" really not be migrated?
> > Thanks.
> > --Mets501
>
>
> Where there's a consensus to move the userboxes, I don't see any harm in
> keeping a central library. Even if you don't move them into that
> userspace,
> you could have redirects pointing out *from* User:UBX to the actual
> template/userpages involved.
>
> As far as where the consensus is, I haven't touched or looked at anything
> involving the userbox wars for quite some time. I suppose, if everything
> is
> located in or pointed at from the userspace of User:UBX, then you might be
> able to make a template which accepts userbox names as a parameter and
> calls
> the relevant subpages.
>
> But not sure if other people will think that's a good idea. ;)
>
> -Luna
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Jim Wilson

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Instant Messenger / Email integration with
	MediaWiki

references:
<1171865222.45d93e86b22e6@webmail.umac.mo>
	<ac08e8d0702182246v6ac5ecffhe0d0df79a1891023@mail.gmail.com>
	<b8ceeef70702190313q417edea9x257d08ccfbc5725e@mail.gmail.com>
	<erd7sh$1ar$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<b8ceeef70702191612u201bdbc5yf8168dc1084776a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<erelhn$kju$1@sea.gmane.org> <45DE5AF9.1030405@umac.mo>

body:
Ok, well, if you're going to go for it anyway, I have these suggestions:

1) Batch Edits - Please batch together IM dialog as a single edit rather
than having each new statement in a conversation be a new "Edit" to the
page.  This is to prevent flooding of the Recentchanges as well as the pages
edit histories.

2) Consent - It would probably be good to have a way for your users to
"consent" to having their IM conversations logged as wiki pages since this
amounts to a sort of cyber-monitoring system.

3) Bot Edits - Depending on popularity, it would probably be a good idea to
attribute these automatic edits to a bot user.  This is to limit flooding of
Recentchanges and watchlist emailings (if they're enabled).

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.  Good luck!

-- Jim

On 2/22/07, Dr. Robert P. Biuk-Aghai <robertb at umac.mo> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the replies to my initial post. I still see value in an
> IM and/or email integration with MediaWiki, simply because both of these
> communication tools are so much part of people's lives nowadays, and
> while wikis are strong in supporting collaboration through the jointly
> created article, they are weak in terms of communication (just have a
> look at how little discussion there is on many of the discussion pages
> in Wikipedia, which I believe is due in no small part to the clumsiness
> of this communication tool). I'll try to find someone to develop this,
> probably starting with an IM integration as this seems easier.
>
> Robert.
>
>
> Platonides wrote:
> > Steve Bennett wrote:
> >
> >>> If i had such free service, i'd set a server doing it for me :P
> >>> If it's a 'private' service, things gets easier:
> >>> -Authentication: Use a variable account name as password.
> >>>
> >> A "variable account name"?
> >>
> >
> > I didn't explain well. If today you need to post by sending an email to
> > wikipost5de133e7d at example.com, tomorrow to
> > wikipostc9ece41a19 at example.com and so on, it's higly difficult to
> > impersonate you (without being a man-in-the-middle, which could catch
> > your password on http, too).
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Stephen Bain

body:
On 2/22/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/fast-facts-found-online/2007/02/21/1171733770530.html
>
> (Is there a wikimedia-au list yet?)

Way ahead of you Dave.

There is a list:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l

The guy contacted some people several months ago, it was discussed on
[[WP:AWNB]] and on the AU mailing list too. Angela posted about this
earlier when the article ran in The Age today, the paper the guy works
for (the SMH is owned by the same company and publishes much of the
same stuff):

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaau-l/2007-February/000367.html

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


body:
On 22/02/07, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:

> I guess you have some sort of point there, but you know what, I've had
> enough. I can't trust a single word he says and I can't be sure
> whether any of his policy suggestions are sincere or just ways to mess
> with us and waste our time. In my book, he has lost all credibility.
> I'm done reading his posts.

Of course, this method works too ;-)

- d.


body:
On 2/22/07, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
> That would be the simplest typesetting convention. But if it's
> semantics, not appearance, that you're after, then I believe the
> convention is _italics_ and *bold*.

Though the official "typesetting interpretation" is the default, you can get
this behavior (and blow away underlining altogether), add this to your
LocalSettings.php after the extension's "require" statement:

$wgUsenetSyntaxMappings = array( '*' => 'bold', '_' => 'italics' );

> Two questions:
> * Why *single* punctuation rather than **double**?

Fixed.  Now supports both *single* and **double** syntax for asterisks.  No
change has been made for slashes or underscores.

You'll need to download the latest source from here to see the change:
http://jimbojw.com/wiki/index.php?title=UsenetSyntax

Note: I have not incremented the extension's version number yet since I
still consider this "development time".

> * Since when does anyone use or want underline on MediaWiki? :) Didn't
> underline become evil when it became the web standard for hyperlinks?

Meh.  You can disable this (as per above).

-- Jim

On 2/22/07, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/22/07, Jim Wilson <wilson.jim.r at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dang.  When I asked everybody on the IRC channel, they told me it was
> > *bold*, _underline_, and /italics/
>
> That would be the simplest typesetting convention. But if it's
> semantics, not appearance, that you're after, then I believe the
> convention is _italics_ and *bold*.
>
> Two questions:
> * Why *single* punctuation rather than **double**?
> * Since when does anyone use or want underline on MediaWiki? :) Didn't
> underline become evil when it became the web standard for hyperlinks?
>
> Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Parker Peters

body:
No, you're right about that ONE thing. You just abusively put on a
template that the original placer had taken off.

Steel359's the one who took it a step further by locking the page.

On 2/22/07, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Parker Peters stated for the record:
> > Final series, # 13/14/15: Steel359, after insulting the user for reporting
> > Sean Barrett/The_Epopt's abusive locking of user page ...
>
> Wrong.  I have /never/ locked any user page.  Given this rather
> fundamental error of fact, one has to wonder what else you have gotten
> wrong . . .  or are simply lying about.
>
> - --
>  Sean Barrett     | A thunder of jets in an open sky,
>  sean at epoptic.com | A streak of gray and a cheerful "Hi!"
>                   | A loop, a whirl, a vertical climb,
>                   | And once again you know it's time....
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFF3nEa/SVOiq2uhHMRApnPAJ4wow4SRmAZVLdqgrsAnEr7yYc5gQCgzRf+
> MVL2JsJSN61ioY96xB8qGs0=
> =678U
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
====
Parker Peters
http://parkerpeters.livejournal.com


from_name: Ron Ritzman

subject: [WikiEN-l] Now this is how you close an AFD :)

body:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Semordnilap

"The result was that the nominator is a dumbarse. - brenneman 02:18,
23 February 2007 (UTC)"


from_name: Jeffrey V. Merkey

subject: [Wikitech-l] 1.8 importDump problems

body:
Hi,

I am seeing the NULL revision title error in importDump.php when I
trieto import the latest foundation dumps from en.

I have added the "+" character to $wgLegalTitleChars and I keep getting
the same error.     The last time importDump.php
worked properly on FedoraCore 5 with MediaWiki was 1.7.  I am running
the 1.8 mediawiki releases on wikigadugi.org

Still have not gotten .svg files to render at all on the site with
ImageMagick or svg.   The trace files show that the svg files are
not even getting detected properly.

here's the error from importDump.php

2734300 (143.99045715519 pages/sec 143.99045715519 revs/sec)
2734400 (143.99159320383 pages/sec 143.99159320383 revs/sec)
WikiRevision given a null title in import. You may need to adjust
$wgLegalTitleChars.
Backtrace:
#0 /wikidump/en/includes/SpecialImport.php(632):
WikiRevision->setTitle(NULL)
#1 [internal function]: WikiImporter->in_page(Resource id #41,
'revision', Array)
#2 /wikidump/en/includes/SpecialImport.php(429): xml_parse(Resource id
#41, '89455135</id>? ...', 0)
#3 /wikidump/en/maintenance/importDump.php(110): WikiImporter->doImport()
#4 /wikidump/en/maintenance/importDump.php(97):
BackupReader->importFromHandle(Resource id #40)
#5 /wikidump/en/maintenance/importDump.php(132):
BackupReader->importFromStdin()#6 {main}

Jeff


subject: [Wikitech-l] SVG Images do not render on 1.8 TRACE ATTACHED

body:
Here's a trace of attempts to render svg files on 1.8.

Jeff

Main cache: FakeMemCachedClient
Message cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Parser cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Unstubbing $wgParser on call of $wgParser->setHook from chr2syl
Unstubbing $wgMessageCache on call of $wgMessageCache->addMessages from
wfCite
Unstubbing $wgContLang on call of $wgContLang->getMagic from MagicWord::load
Got localisation for chr from source
Got localisation for en from source
Fully initialised
Unstubbing $wgUser on call of $wgUser->isAllowed from Title::userCanRead
Unstubbing $wgLoadBalancer on call of $wgLoadBalancer->getConnection
from wfGetDB
LoadBalancer::getReaderIndex: Using reader #0: localhost...
Unstubbing $wgOut on call of $wgOut->setSquidMaxage from
MediaWiki::performAction
OutputPage::checkLastModified: client did not send If-Modified-Since header
IP: 127.0.0.1
fileCacheName() - /wikidump/chr/chrcache/2/21/Alabama.html
isFileCacheGood() - cachetime 20070210200904, touched 20061219110211
epoch 20070223075230, good
Article::tryFileCache(): starting buffer
Article::view using parser cache: yes
Trying parser cache chrdb:pcache:idhash:1445-0!1!0!!chr!2
Parser cache miss.
Unstubbing $wgLang on call of $wgLang->getCode from MessageCache::get
MessageCache::load(): got from global cache
img_width match: 125
img_width match: 100
makeImageLinkObj: '100'x'', "State seal of Alabama"
makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '100 x 103'
makeImageLinkObj2: '100'x'103'
Image::getViewURL(): supposed to render Map_of_USA_AL.svg (), but can't!
makeImageLinkObj: ''x'', "Map of the United States with Alabama highlighted"
makeImageLinkObj2: '0'x'0'
img_width match: 250
makeImageLinkObj: '250'x'', " ??? ?????? Alabama ??? ???? boundaries ????"
img_width match: 250
makeImageLinkObj: '250'x'', "Alabama ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????"
img_width match: 300
makeImageLinkObj: '300'x'', "Map of Alabama - PDF"
img_width match: 150
makeImageLinkObj: '150'x'', "Alabama ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???
Keller ????? ??? ?? longleaf ?? ????? ?? Camellia ????? ????? ?? 50 ????
??? ?????? ?????. ????? ."
img_width match: 25
makeImageLinkObj: '25'x'', " "
makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '25 x 27'
makeImageLinkObj2: '25'x'27'
img_width match: 25
img_width match: 25
img_width match: 25
img_width match: 25
img_width match: 25
makeImageLinkObj: '25'x'', " "
makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '25 x 13'
makeImageLinkObj2: '25'x'13'
img_width match: 75
img_width match: 80
Tidy error detected!
Saved in parser cache with key chrdb:pcache:idhash:1445-0!1!0!!chr!2 and
timestamp 20070223075255
OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:52:30
GMT **
Request ended normally

Start request
GET /wiki/Alabama
Host: chr.wikigadugi.org
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8)
Gecko/20050524 Fedora/1.0.4-4 Firefox/1.0.4
Accept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: UTF-8,*
Referer:
http://chr.wikigadugi.org/wiki/%E1%8F%84%E1%8E%AC%E1%8F%AB%E1%8F%B3%E1%8F%92_%E1%8E%A4%E1%8F%86%E1%8F%93%E1%8F%9B
Via: 1.1 c-67-177-44-96.hsd1.ut.comcast.net:80 (squid/2.5.STABLE12)
X-Forwarded-For: 67.186.225.37
Cache-Control: max-age=259200
Connection: keep-alive

Main cache: FakeMemCachedClient
Message cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Parser cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Unstubbing $wgParser on call of $wgParser->setHook from chr2syl
Unstubbing $wgMessageCache on call of $wgMessageCache->addMessages from
wfCite
Unstubbing $wgContLang on call of $wgContLang->getMagic from MagicWord::load
Got localisation for chr from source
Got localisation for en from source
Fully initialised
Unstubbing $wgUser on call of $wgUser->isAllowed from Title::userCanRead
Unstubbing $wgLoadBalancer on call of $wgLoadBalancer->getConnection
from wfGetDB
LoadBalancer::getReaderIndex: Using reader #0: localhost...
Unstubbing $wgOut on call of $wgOut->setSquidMaxage from
MediaWiki::performAction
OutputPage::checkLastModified: client did not send If-Modified-Since header
IP: 127.0.0.1
fileCacheName() - /wikidump/chr/chrcache/2/21/Alabama.html
isFileCacheGood() - cachetime 20070210200904, touched 20061219110211
epoch 20070223075230, good
Article::tryFileCache(): starting buffer
Article::view using parser cache: yes
Trying parser cache chrdb:pcache:idhash:1445-0!1!0!!chr!2
Parser cache miss.
Unstubbing $wgLang on call of $wgLang->getCode from MessageCache::get
MessageCache::load(): got from global cache
img_width match: 125
img_width match: 100
makeImageLinkObj: '100'x'', "State seal of Alabama"
makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '100 x 103'
makeImageLinkObj2: '100'x'103'
Image::getViewURL(): supposed to render Map_of_USA_AL.svg (), but can't!
makeImageLinkObj: ''x'', "Map of the United States with Alabama highlighted"
makeImageLinkObj2: '0'x'0'
img_width match: 250
makeImageLinkObj: '250'x'', " ??? ?????? Alabama ??? ???? boundaries ????"
img_width match: 250
makeImageLinkObj: '250'x'', "Alabama ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????"
img_width match: 300
makeImageLinkObj: '300'x'', "Map of Alabama - PDF"
img_width match: 150
makeImageLinkObj: '150'x'', "Alabama ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???
Keller ????? ??? ?? longleaf ?? ????? ?? Camellia ????? ????? ?? 50 ????
??? ?????? ?????. ????? ."
img_width match: 25
makeImageLinkObj: '25'x'', " "
makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '25 x 27'
makeImageLinkObj2: '25'x'27'
img_width match: 25
img_width match: 25
img_width match: 25
img_width match: 25
img_width match: 25
makeImageLinkObj: '25'x'', " "
makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '25 x 13'
makeImageLinkObj2: '25'x'13'
img_width match: 75
img_width match: 80
Tidy error detected!
Saved in parser cache with key chrdb:pcache:idhash:1445-0!1!0!!chr!2 and
timestamp 20070223075255
OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:52:30
GMT **
Request ended normally


from_name: Gregory Kohs

subject: [WikiEN-l] How did Fuzzy decide to sue Josef Silny?

body:
Before it got erased from the record, I thought I asked some relevant
questions about the Fuzzy Zoeller case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fuzzy_Zoeller&diff=110240475&oldid=110237714

What does this list think?  Could Section 230 of the CDA extend
immunity to Answers.com in this case, or are they vulnerable?  If they
get sued, they'll probably rue the day they made their deal with
Wikipedia.

(I was told to bring the discussion here.)

On another point, is anyone even considering my post from about 30
hours ago?  Is *nobody* willing to bury the hatchet?

Greg

--
Gregory Kohs
Cell: 302.463.1354


body:
Here's some additonal info.  It almost appears the mime types are not
being detected since "can render" never shows up
in the traces:

    function canRender() {
        global $wgUseImageMagick, $wgDjvuRenderer;

        if( $this->getWidth()<=0 || $this->getHeight()<=0 ) return false;

        $mime= $this->getMimeType();

        if (!$mime || $mime==='unknown' || $mime==='unknown/unknown')
return false;

        #if it's SVG, check if there's a converter enabled
        if ($mime === 'image/svg') {
            global $wgSVGConverters, $wgSVGConverter;

            if ($wgSVGConverter && isset(
$wgSVGConverters[$wgSVGConverter])) {
                wfDebug( "Image::canRender: SVG is ready!\n" );
                return true;
            } else {
                wfDebug( "Image::canRender: SVG renderer missing\n" );
            }
        }

        #image formats available on ALL browsers
        if (  $mime === 'image/gif'
           || $mime === 'image/png'
           || $mime === 'image/jpeg' ) return true;

        #image formats that can be converted to the above formats
        if ($wgUseImageMagick) {
            #convertable by ImageMagick (there are more...)
            if ( $mime === 'image/vnd.wap.wbmp'
              || $mime === 'image/x-xbitmap'
              || $mime === 'image/x-xpixmap'
              #|| $mime === 'image/x-icon'   #file may be split into
multiple parts
              || $mime === 'image/x-portable-anymap'
              || $mime === 'image/x-portable-bitmap'
              || $mime === 'image/x-portable-graymap'
              || $mime === 'image/x-portable-pixmap'
              #|| $mime === 'image/x-photoshop'  #this takes a lot of
CPU and RAM!
              || $mime === 'image/x-rgb'
              || $mime === 'image/x-bmp'
              || $mime === 'image/tiff' ) return true;
        }
        else {
            #convertable by the PHP GD image lib
            if ( $mime === 'image/vnd.wap.wbmp'
              || $mime === 'image/x-xbitmap' ) return true;
        }
        if ( $mime === 'image/vnd.djvu' && isset( $wgDjvuRenderer ) &&
$wgDjvuRenderer ) return true;

        return false;
    }

Jeff

Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:

>Here's a trace of attempts to render svg files on 1.8.
>
>Jeff
>
>
>Main cache: FakeMemCachedClient
>Message cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
>Parser cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
>Unstubbing $wgParser on call of $wgParser->setHook from chr2syl
>Unstubbing $wgMessageCache on call of $wgMessageCache->addMessages from
>wfCite
>Unstubbing $wgContLang on call of $wgContLang->getMagic from MagicWord::load
>Got localisation for chr from source
>Got localisation for en from source
>Fully initialised
>Unstubbing $wgUser on call of $wgUser->isAllowed from Title::userCanRead
>Unstubbing $wgLoadBalancer on call of $wgLoadBalancer->getConnection
>from wfGetDB
>LoadBalancer::getReaderIndex: Using reader #0: localhost...
>Unstubbing $wgOut on call of $wgOut->setSquidMaxage from
>MediaWiki::performAction
>OutputPage::checkLastModified: client did not send If-Modified-Since header
>IP: 127.0.0.1
>fileCacheName() - /wikidump/chr/chrcache/2/21/Alabama.html
>isFileCacheGood() - cachetime 20070210200904, touched 20061219110211
>epoch 20070223075230, good
>Article::tryFileCache(): starting buffer
>Article::view using parser cache: yes
>Trying parser cache chrdb:pcache:idhash:1445-0!1!0!!chr!2
>Parser cache miss.
>Unstubbing $wgLang on call of $wgLang->getCode from MessageCache::get
>MessageCache::load(): got from global cache
>img_width match: 125
>img_width match: 100
>makeImageLinkObj: '100'x'', "State seal of Alabama"
>makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '100 x 103'
>makeImageLinkObj2: '100'x'103'
>Image::getViewURL(): supposed to render Map_of_USA_AL.svg (), but can't!
>makeImageLinkObj: ''x'', "Map of the United States with Alabama highlighted"
>makeImageLinkObj2: '0'x'0'
>img_width match: 250
>makeImageLinkObj: '250'x'', " ??? ?????? Alabama ??? ???? boundaries ????"
>img_width match: 250
>makeImageLinkObj: '250'x'', "Alabama ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????"
>img_width match: 300
>makeImageLinkObj: '300'x'', "Map of Alabama - href="http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/reference/pagegen_al.pdf"
>class="external text"
>title="http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/reference/pagegen_al.pdf"
>rel="nofollow">PDF"
>img_width match: 150
>makeImageLinkObj: '150'x'', "Alabama ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???
>Keller ????? ??? ?? longleaf ?? ????? ?? Camellia ????? ????? ?? 50 ????
>??? ?????? ?????. ????? ."
>img_width match: 25
>makeImageLinkObj: '25'x'', " "
>makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '25 x 27'
>makeImageLinkObj2: '25'x'27'
>img_width match: 25
>img_width match: 25
>img_width match: 25
>img_width match: 25
>img_width match: 25
>makeImageLinkObj: '25'x'', " "
>makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '25 x 13'
>makeImageLinkObj2: '25'x'13'
>img_width match: 75
>img_width match: 80
>Tidy error detected!
>Saved in parser cache with key chrdb:pcache:idhash:1445-0!1!0!!chr!2 and
>timestamp 20070223075255
>OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:52:30
>GMT **
>Request ended normally
>
>
>
>Start request
>GET /wiki/Alabama
>Host: chr.wikigadugi.org
>User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8)
>Gecko/20050524 Fedora/1.0.4-4 Firefox/1.0.4
>Accept:
>text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
>Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
>Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
>Accept-Charset: UTF-8,*
>Referer:
>http://chr.wikigadugi.org/wiki/%E1%8F%84%E1%8E%AC%E1%8F%AB%E1%8F%B3%E1%8F%92_%E1%8E%A4%E1%8F%86%E1%8F%93%E1%8F%9B
>Via: 1.1 c-67-177-44-96.hsd1.ut.comcast.net:80 (squid/2.5.STABLE12)
>X-Forwarded-For: 67.186.225.37
>Cache-Control: max-age=259200
>Connection: keep-alive
>
>Main cache: FakeMemCachedClient
>Message cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
>Parser cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
>Unstubbing $wgParser on call of $wgParser->setHook from chr2syl
>Unstubbing $wgMessageCache on call of $wgMessageCache->addMessages from
>wfCite
>Unstubbing $wgContLang on call of $wgContLang->getMagic from MagicWord::load
>Got localisation for chr from source
>Got localisation for en from source
>Fully initialised
>Unstubbing $wgUser on call of $wgUser->isAllowed from Title::userCanRead
>Unstubbing $wgLoadBalancer on call of $wgLoadBalancer->getConnection
>from wfGetDB
>LoadBalancer::getReaderIndex: Using reader #0: localhost...
>Unstubbing $wgOut on call of $wgOut->setSquidMaxage from
>MediaWiki::performAction
>OutputPage::checkLastModified: client did not send If-Modified-Since header
>IP: 127.0.0.1
>fileCacheName() - /wikidump/chr/chrcache/2/21/Alabama.html
>isFileCacheGood() - cachetime 20070210200904, touched 20061219110211
>epoch 20070223075230, good
>Article::tryFileCache(): starting buffer
>Article::view using parser cache: yes
>Trying parser cache chrdb:pcache:idhash:1445-0!1!0!!chr!2
>Parser cache miss.
>Unstubbing $wgLang on call of $wgLang->getCode from MessageCache::get
>MessageCache::load(): got from global cache
>img_width match: 125
>img_width match: 100
>makeImageLinkObj: '100'x'', "State seal of Alabama"
>makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '100 x 103'
>makeImageLinkObj2: '100'x'103'
>Image::getViewURL(): supposed to render Map_of_USA_AL.svg (), but can't!
>makeImageLinkObj: ''x'', "Map of the United States with Alabama highlighted"
>makeImageLinkObj2: '0'x'0'
>img_width match: 250
>makeImageLinkObj: '250'x'', " ??? ?????? Alabama ??? ???? boundaries ????"
>img_width match: 250
>makeImageLinkObj: '250'x'', "Alabama ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????"
>img_width match: 300
>makeImageLinkObj: '300'x'', "Map of Alabama - href="http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/reference/pagegen_al.pdf"
>class="external text"
>title="http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/reference/pagegen_al.pdf"
>rel="nofollow">PDF"
>img_width match: 150
>makeImageLinkObj: '150'x'', "Alabama ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???
>Keller ????? ??? ?? longleaf ?? ????? ?? Camellia ????? ????? ?? 50 ????
>??? ?????? ?????. ????? ."
>img_width match: 25
>makeImageLinkObj: '25'x'', " "
>makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '25 x 27'
>makeImageLinkObj2: '25'x'27'
>img_width match: 25
>img_width match: 25
>img_width match: 25
>img_width match: 25
>img_width match: 25
>makeImageLinkObj: '25'x'', " "
>makeImageLinkObj: client-size set to '25 x 13'
>makeImageLinkObj2: '25'x'13'
>img_width match: 75
>img_width match: 80
>Tidy error detected!
>Saved in parser cache with key chrdb:pcache:idhash:1445-0!1!0!!chr!2 and
>timestamp 20070223075255
>OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:52:30
>GMT **
>Request ended normally
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


from_name: Oskar Sigvardsson

body:
On 2/22/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> As the mailing list for a wiki, readers have to have some of the
> tolerance to stupidity they need to have to work on the wiki itself.
> Just as working productively with *complete idiots* is pretty much
> mandatory on the wiki, putting up with this shit to some degree is
> hard to avoid here.

I guess you have some sort of point there, but you know what, I've had
enough. I can't trust a single word he says and I can't be sure
whether any of his policy suggestions are sincere or just ways to mess
with us and waste our time. In my book, he has lost all credibility.
I'm done reading his posts.

--Oskar


subject: [Wikitech-l] 1.8.2 importDump.php and SVG Version info

body:
Both the SVG problem and the importDump.php problem are on a system
which reports the following:

This wiki is powered by *MediaWiki <http://www.mediawiki.org/>*,
copyright (C) 2001-2006 Magnus Manske, Brion Vibber, Lee Daniel Crocker,
Tim Starling, Erik M?ller, Gabriel Wicke, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason,
Niklas Laxstr?m, Domas Mituzas, Rob Church and others.

MediaWiki is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it
under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the
Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your
option) any later version.

MediaWiki is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT
ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for
more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
<http://chr.wikigadugi.org/COPYING> along with this program; if not,
write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin Street, Fifth
Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA. or read it online
<http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html>

    * MediaWiki <http://www.mediawiki.org/>: 1.8.2
    * PHP <http://www.php.net/>: 5.1.4 (apache2handler)
    * MySQL <http://www.mysql.com/>: 5.0.18
    * Extensions:
          o Parser hooks:
                + /Cite/ <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cite/Cite.php>,
                  adds <ref[ name=id]> and <references/> tags, for
                  citations, by ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason
                + /ParserFunctions/
                  <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ParserFunctions> by
                  Tim Starling
          o Extension functions:
                + chr2syl, wfCite and wfSetupParserFunctions
          o Parser extension tags:
                + <chr2html>, <chr2syl>, <syl2chr>, <ref>, <references>
                  and <pre>
          o Parser function hooks:
                + expr, if, ifeq, ifexpr, switch, ifexist, int, ns,
                  urlencode, lcfirst, ucfirst, lc, uc, localurl,
                  localurle, fullurl, fullurle, formatnum, grammar,
                  plural, numberofpages, numberofusers,
                  numberofarticles, numberoffiles, numberofadmins,
                  language, padleft, padright and anchorencode
    * Hooks:
          o LanguageGetMagic: wfParserFunctionsLanguageGetMagic
          o ParserClearState: (Cite, clearState)


from_name: Mark Ryan

body:
On 22/02/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> /me goes to join up straight away

Sorry, only Australians allowed. You count as a Pom now, whether you
like it or not. ;)

~Mark Ryan


body:
On 2/22/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course, this method works too ;-)

One has to be pragmatic ;-)


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2007-02-23

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

This is MediaWiki version 1.10alpha (r20044).

Reading tests from "maintenance/parserTests.txt"...
Reading tests from "extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...
Reading tests from "extensions/Poem/poemParserTests.txt"...

  18 still FAILING test(s) :(
      * URL-encoding in URL functions (single parameter)  [Has never passed]
      * URL-encoding in URL functions (multiple parameters)  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)  [Has never passed]
      * BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: dt/dd/dl test  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.  [Has never passed]
      * TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.  [Has never passed]

Passed 493 of 511 tests (96.48%)... 18 tests failed!


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Sean Barrett wrote:

>Parker Peters stated for the record:
>
>
>>Final series, # 13/14/15: Steel359, after insulting the user for reporting
>>Sean Barrett/The_Epopt's abusive locking of user page ...
>>
>>
>Wrong.  I have /never/ locked any user page.  Given this rather
>fundamental error of fact, one has to wonder what else you have gotten
>wrong . . .  or are simply lying about.
>
A simple error of fact does not justify an accuastion of lying.

Ec


body:
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:

>On 2/22/07, David Gerard wrote:
>
>
>>As the mailing list for a wiki, readers have to have some of the
>>tolerance to stupidity they need to have to work on the wiki itself.
>>Just as working productively with *complete idiots* is pretty much
>>mandatory on the wiki, putting up with this shit to some degree is
>>hard to avoid here.
>>
>>
>I guess you have some sort of point there, but you know what, I've had
>enough. I can't trust a single word he says and I can't be sure
>whether any of his policy suggestions are sincere or just ways to mess
>with us and waste our time. In my book, he has lost all credibility.
>I'm done reading his posts.
>
The kind of piling on that I've seen in this thread against Parker is an
obscenity that makes his faults mild by comparison.  His ways of
expressing himself leave much to be desired, but the reaction of some
admins, the accusations of lying, the ridicule, the belittling, the
lynch-mob mentality go far beyond anything that he could single-handedly
do are absolutely sickening.

Try looking at his suggestions on their own merit, without regard to who
is making them.  Maybe some people find that they hit too close to home.

Ec


from_name: Matthew Brown

body:
On 2/22/07, William Pietri <william at scissor.com> wrote:
> For this to happen, I don't think there need to be malice on either
> side, just ordinary human nature.

A great post in general, but this part in particular needs to be
pulled out and held up by itself.

Most of the time, most people are not malicious.  Fact is, two people
can get into stupid misunderstandings and vicious disagreement without
any malice at all and only the best of intentions.  See [[Hanlon's
razor]], most commonly phrased as "Never attribute to malice that
which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

Misunderstanding is incredibly easy in an environment such as
Wikipedia, especially when at least one party is not familiar with the
terrain and is thus at a significant communications disadvantage (in
both directions).

-Matt


body:
Marc Riddell wrote:

>>On 22/02/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Extremely well put! You helped me a great deal when I first came to the
>>>List. It was my first experience posting to any such list, and I didn't even
>>>know where to place, or how to format, my messages. Now, to some people's
>>>annoyance, I can focus on the substance ;-). You are a part of the chemo
>>>that will hold back the cancer in the culture.
>>>
>>>
>>on 2/22/07 4:11 PM, David Gerard at dgerard at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>You mean, I make people horribly sick and their hair fall out, but
>>IT'S ALL FOR THEIR OWN GOOD?
>>
>>Exxxxxxxxxxxxcellent!
>>
>>
>I couldn't say cure for the cancer (which is, of course, what I meant)
>because someone would chastise me for not sighting my sources.
>
Well phrased!  Chemo is a treatment with such general application that
it fails to focus. Other more focused treatments depend much more on
accurately sighting and siting the source of the problem.

Ec


body:
Marc Riddell wrote:

>on 2/22/07 4:28 PM, Marc Riddell at michaeldavid86 at comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>>sighting my sources.
>>
>>
>"sighting" my sources!?!
>
>This is an excellent example of why a writer needs an editor!
>
Not at all, you just need to pat yourself on the back for an effective
metaphor and play on words. :-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Latest comedic parody of Wikipedia

body:
http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page
http://www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] More Traces of Buggy SVG rendering in 1.8.2

body:
Attached.  This time with the Wikipedia svg files for links back to
wikipedia for GFDL compliance.

Jeff

Start request
GET /wiki/%E1%8E%BE%E1%8F%8D%E1%8E%A9%E1%8F%AF%E1%8E%A2:Wikiquote-logo.svg
Host: chr.wikigadugi.org
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8)
Gecko/20050524 Fedora/1.0.4-4 Firefox/1.0.4
Accept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: UTF-8,*
Referer: http://chr.wikigadugi.org/wiki/Alabama
Via: 1.1 c-67-177-44-96.hsd1.ut.comcast.net:80 (squid/2.5.STABLE12)
X-Forwarded-For: 67.186.225.37
Cache-Control: max-age=259200
Connection: keep-alive

Main cache: FakeMemCachedClient
Message cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Parser cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Unstubbing $wgParser on call of $wgParser->setHook from chr2syl
Unstubbing $wgMessageCache on call of $wgMessageCache->addMessages from
wfCite
Unstubbing $wgContLang on call of $wgContLang->getMagic from MagicWord::load
Got localisation for chr from source
Got localisation for en from source
Fully initialised
Unstubbing $wgUser on call of $wgUser->isAllowed from Title::userCanRead
Unstubbing $wgLoadBalancer on call of $wgLoadBalancer->getConnection
from wfGetDB
LoadBalancer::getReaderIndex: Using reader #0: localhost...
Unstubbing $wgOut on call of $wgOut->setSquidMaxage from
MediaWiki::performAction
Unstubbing $wgLang on call of $wgLang->getNsText from ImagePage::showTOC
MessageCache::load(): got from global cache
Image::canRender: entered
Image::canRender: entered
Image::canRender: entered
OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:51:28
GMT **
Request ended normally
IP: 127.0.0.1
OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching;  **
Request ended normally
Start request
GET /wiki/%E1%8E%BE%E1%8F%8D%E1%8E%A9%E1%8F%AF%E1%8E%A2:Wikisource-logo.svg
Host: chr.wikigadugi.org
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8)
Gecko/20050524 Fedora/1.0.4-4 Firefox/1.0.4
Accept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: UTF-8,*
Referer: http://chr.wikigadugi.org/wiki/Alabama
Via: 1.1 c-67-177-44-96.hsd1.ut.comcast.net:80 (squid/2.5.STABLE12)
X-Forwarded-For: 67.186.225.37
Cache-Control: max-age=259200
Connection: keep-alive

Main cache: FakeMemCachedClient
Message cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Parser cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Unstubbing $wgParser on call of $wgParser->setHook from chr2syl
Unstubbing $wgMessageCache on call of $wgMessageCache->addMessages from
wfCite
Unstubbing $wgContLang on call of $wgContLang->getMagic from MagicWord::load
Got localisation for chr from source
Got localisation for en from source
Fully initialised
Unstubbing $wgUser on call of $wgUser->isAllowed from Title::userCanRead
Unstubbing $wgLoadBalancer on call of $wgLoadBalancer->getConnection
from wfGetDB
LoadBalancer::getReaderIndex: Using reader #0: localhost...
Unstubbing $wgOut on call of $wgOut->setSquidMaxage from
MediaWiki::performAction
Unstubbing $wgLang on call of $wgLang->getNsText from ImagePage::showTOC
MessageCache::load(): got from global cache
Image::canRender: entered
Image::canRender: entered
Image::canRender: entered
IP: 127.0.0.1
OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching;  **
Request ended normally

Start request
GET /wiki/%E1%8E%BE%E1%8F%8D%E1%8E%A9%E1%8F%AF%E1%8E%A2:Commons-logo.svg
Host: chr.wikigadugi.org
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8)
Gecko/20050524 Fedora/1.0.4-4 Firefox/1.0.4
Accept:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: UTF-8,*
Referer: http://chr.wikigadugi.org/wiki/Alabama
Via: 1.1 c-67-177-44-96.hsd1.ut.comcast.net:80 (squid/2.5.STABLE12)
X-Forwarded-For: 67.186.225.37
Cache-Control: max-age=259200
Connection: keep-alive

Main cache: FakeMemCachedClient
Message cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Parser cache: MediaWikiBagOStuff
Unstubbing $wgParser on call of $wgParser->setHook from chr2syl
Unstubbing $wgMessageCache on call of $wgMessageCache->addMessages from
wfCite
Unstubbing $wgContLang on call of $wgContLang->getMagic from MagicWord::load
Got localisation for chr from source
Got localisation for en from source
Fully initialised
Unstubbing $wgUser on call of $wgUser->isAllowed from Title::userCanRead
Unstubbing $wgLoadBalancer on call of $wgLoadBalancer->getConnection
from wfGetDB
LoadBalancer::getReaderIndex: Using reader #0: localhost...
Unstubbing $wgOut on call of $wgOut->setSquidMaxage from
MediaWiki::performAction
Unstubbing $wgLang on call of $wgLang->getNsText from ImagePage::showTOC
MessageCache::load(): got from global cache
Image::canRender: entered
Image::canRender: entered
Image::canRender: entered
IP: 127.0.0.1
OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching;  **
Request ended normally
OutputPage::sendCacheControl: private caching; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:51:28
GMT **
Request ended normally


from_name: Andrew Gray

subject: [WikiEN-l] Proposal: increased bot edit rates on en:wp

body:
On 22/02/07, Parker Peters <parkerpeters1002 at gmail.com> wrote:

> > I'd agree we should be careful about this -- bots have the potential to be
> > very helpful, but rogue or malfunctioning bots likewise have a potential
> > to
> > do some pretty nasty damage. Not so much to pages; sure, it'll be a chore,
> > but we can revert all of that easily enough. I'd be especially concerned
> > about bots that deal with newer users, and how a buggy bot can influence
> > their first experiences on the wiki.
>
>
> That's one of my concerns, but I'm also concerned about what happens when
> two bots start making the same change in slightly different ways; say
> someone writes a bot to make all date codes uniform, for example, and
> another bot starts thinking it's vandalizing something or it starts
> "datecoding" things that are in external links?

To be fair, these are issues pretty much independent of editing speed
- doubling the speed just changes the amount of cleanup needing done,
it doesn't prevent it - and are one of the main reasons we have a bot
approval system. You want to do something nonstandard, they're going
to go over it with a fine-toothed comb... and hopefully conflicts with
other bots, or the potential to do Really Stupid Things (like altering
source titles) will be spotted.

(In the example given, the obvious questions would be "why are you
mass-changing date codes?" and "why this final version?", and if they
both get approved with conflicting answers, the system's dropped the
ball)

> HagermanBot would be my specific example of a bot that doesn't need an
> > artificial limit. Some people have suggested it should wait a little
> > longer
> > before signing (no idea where overall consensus on this is, just pointing
> > out), but even "wait x seconds before signing" is just a delay for each
> > edit, rather than a limit on the overall editing rate.
>
>
> HagermanBot is a special case because its usage is overly specialized. It
> still makes mistakes sometimes (such as when someone "signs" but then adds a
> P.S. or something after, or manually signs rather than using tildes).
>
> Having it wait X seconds before an edit - I'd suggest 60, to allow for time
> for a user to realize, go back, sign it themselves, then make the bot
> re-check - is a good thing.

An elegant though computationally tricky one would be to log all such
changes and then do a mass-update of them in batches - every hour or
half-hour on a heavily trafficked page, say.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


body:
David Gerard wrote:

>On 22/02/07, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On 2/22/07, Mark Ryan <ultrablue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>CheckUser queries are logged. The only administrator to look at the
>>>CheckUser data of all three users you mention is Jpgordon, the very
>>>administrator whose CheckUser actions/results you criticise.
>>>So, unless you're in bed with a developer, I think it's safe to assume
>>>you're lying.
>>>
>>>
>>When do we get to the point that we don't allow this shit anymore on
>>wikien? Putting up with all of this makes it way more tiresome than it
>>should be to be to read the list.
>>
>>
>Put it this way: more than me has thought he's more than one of the
>recent posters with a remarkably low evidence:invective ratio.
>
>The poster in question is no longer completely useless to the list. I
>think we're slowly training him to write things that are relevant
>talking points concerning the project.
>
I think he has improved.  There are others whom I found strident when
they first arrived, but who have since become more reasonable.  The
training of is slow; all it takes is patience.

>I fear that's all we can really do. The fundamental problem is that,
>as long as email addresses are free, it's impossible to keep someone
>entirely off the list without getting really drastic and screening
>just about all messages. And that would in fact make a
>conceptually-moderated list, which would be a failure as a list.
>wikien-l has to be open, as Wikipedia has to be open.
>
Strongly agree.


body:
William Pietri wrote:

>Rob wrote:
>
>
>>The fact that a block gets someone MAD does not justify further abuse,
>>and the talk page should not be used to give a troll a soapbox to
>>attack people.
>>
>>
>I'd agree with that. On the other hand, there's this pattern I'm worried
>about that goes something like this:
>
>   1. A new user tries to do something that seems reasonable to them,
>      but is annoying to us -- e.g., adding their friend's band to
>      Wikipedia.
>   2. Almost instantly they receive a boilerplate negative reaction from
>      us -- e.g., their article is speedied.
>   3. They struggle to understand what the hell is going on and do
>      something they think is reasonable -- let's say they replace the
>      speedy template with {{hangon}} and go on editing their article.
>   4. They get another instant boilerplate negative reaction and
>      experience more frustration -- perhaps they get the template back,
>      a user page warning for removing speedies, and an edit conflict to
>      boot.
>   5. After repeatedly being frustrated in trying to do something they
>      think is useful, they express their frustration with less than
>      perfect politeness.
>   6. The cycle of negative interactions spirals until they end up blocked.
>
>
The disrespect starts at #2.  If the person so acting took the trouble
to open a dialogue instead of slapping on impersonal boilerplate and
initiating hostile action a lot more of these newbies could be mentored
into becoming useful contributors.

>And then from here, I'm sure a most of those people just go away,
>nursing their burnt fingers and telling their pals what jerks those
>Wikipedians are. A few of them take it as a great injustice and turn
>into long-term enemies.
>
With full justification for doing so.

>I would rather we took more time with these people, as I think we
>currently create more enemies than we need, and discourage potential
>contributors.
>
That's the big problem to overcome.

Ec


body:
James Forrester wrote:

>On 21/02/07, Parker Peters <parkerpeters1002 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>If Adminship were not a big deal, then losing adminship would not be a big
>>deal.
>>
>>
>Nonsense. It's amazing (and, frankly, mystifying) to me how often this
>awfully poor logical conclusion comes up.
>
>"Being a sysop is not a big thing, anyone can become one" is
>equivalent to saying "If you are judged unable to become a sysop,
>then, wow, you really must be two nuts short of a bolt".
>
>The corollary is that if you do have your sysop bit removed, you are
>now being accused of, indeed, having a shortage of bolt-fasteners.
>
This analogy is excessively dramatic. When considering granting admin
privileges one needs to assume good faith in the absence of evidence to
the contrary.  That someone has improperly used his sysop powers does
not imply that he is mad.  It would be more likely that it reflects poor
social skills.  In time he could again show evidence of better social skills

>If we did hold sysops to some impossibly high standard - and, it
>should be pointed out, I personally see nothing wrong, and a great
>deal right, with holding Arbitrators and Stewards to this level, for
>instance - then, yes, being desysoped would not be such a big thing
>because people would fail the test all the time. But we don't, so it
>is, because they don't. See?
>
I see no problem holding a sysop to a higher standard than an ordinary
user, and applying an even higher standard for bureaucrats and stewards.

Ec


from_name: Liang Chen

subject: [Wikitech-l] How to not display title of one page, like Main Page

body:
Hi,
   I don't want to display the title of the page on main page, like
wikipedia's main page, how can I do that?

Thank!!

--
                     ---BiGreat---
               www.Liang-Chen.com


from_name: Will

body:
On 23/02/07, Ron Ritzman <ritzman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Semordnilap
>
> "The result was that the nominator is a dumbarse. - brenneman 02:18,
> 23 February 2007 (UTC)"
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

As Newyorkbrad said on brenneman's talk, I think that the closure should be
VRD'd.


from_name: Evan Prodromou

body:
You should probably look at reST, a popular wiki-like text format that
is based on the same formatting conventions you're trying to emulate.

        http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html

~Evan

________________________________________________________________________
Evan Prodromou <evan at prodromou.name>
http://evan.prodromou.name/
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from_name: Cheney Shill

body:
David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page
>
http://www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia

David, you do realize that this site is not comedic or
parody?  It's best described as a front site for christian
fundamentalists, registered by the people behind
http://www.eagleforum.org, the "leading the pro-family
movement since 1972".  Pro-family, like pro-life, is a
fundie code word for anti-szfe-sex, anti-abortion,
anti-anything that doesn't agree with their bible-thumping
views.

Specifically:
      Schlafly, Andrew  aschlafly at aol.com
      521 Fifth Ave. - 17th Floor
      New York, New York 10175
      United States
      (212) 292-4510

Not that Wikipedia's NPOV (used with your subject line's
unstated irony) article on them actually captures any of
this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Forum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-family

~~Pro-Lick
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Halliburton_Shill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pro-Lick
http://www.wikiality.com/User:Pro-Lick (now a Wikia supported site)

--spam may follow--

____________________________________________________________________________________
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/


from_name: Nick Wilkins

subject: [WikiEN-l] A new way of image uploading. Sort of

body:
On 2/23/07, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> OK there is still some fiddling to be done but You can see the first
> example of something I hope will become widespread here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Mamet
>
> be sure to click the image to look around the stuff behind it (mostly
> a new separate image upload page but there are other things)
>
> As I said it isn't quite finished and suggestions are welcome.
>
> Much credit goes to Editor at Large for the SVG, Gmaxwell for much of
> the formatting and Brion for turning on the required extension on en.
> --
> geni

One of the common concerns that image owners bring up is the potential for
commercial re-use of their images.  Would it be proper to make it explicit
that uploading the image (and placing it under a free license) means that
they would have to allow that?  In a perfect world, they would read and
understand the text of the license; of course, it's not a perfect world.
Regardless that they *should* know, it would probably be good if we did our
best to avoid the situation where uploaders get mad at us when they find out
the "hard way" that their images can be used commercially by others.

-- Jonel


list: foundation-l

from_name: Kat Walsh

subject: [Foundation-l] RfC: Draft licensing policy resolution

body:
On 2/23/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/23/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Content tagged as NC and ND will on its
> > own not be permitted.
>
> It will be deleted by 2008 according to the draft
> > resolution.
>
>
> The draft says:  ''
>
> By February XX, 2008, all existing files under an unacceptable
> license must either be used under an EDP, or shall be deleted''
>
> So if a community acccepts NC or ND as an EDP, it will not be deleted.
> So your statement is invalid.

His statement is actually valid; if the wording suggests otherwise it
will be fixed!

-Kat

--
Wikimedia needs you: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising
* *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *  * *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mindspillage | (G)AIM:Mindspillage
mindspillage or mind|wandering on irc.freenode.net | email for phone


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Flame Viper

subject: [WikiEN-l] Four things to say

body:
For one, ther was no reason to ban Parker Peters. I liked him; he was intelligent.

For two, Yanksox, gone? I believe I may be somewhat responsible for pointing out that he was responsible for the overreaction to my irresponsibility (you should be able to understand that).

For three, as for the suggestion about a program to mentor new users, I started just that several months ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User

For Four, I have the diffs and a supporting argument. Bring that bitch to ArbCom, tell them to stick it in their pipe and smoke it.

---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

body:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 02:24:09PM +1100, Steve Bennett wrote:
> Two questions:
> * Why *single* punctuation rather than **double**?

Because the goal is to leverage what people *actually do*.  I almost
*never* see doubled punctuation.

> * Since when does anyone use or want underline on MediaWiki? :) Didn't
> underline become evil when it became the web standard for hyperlinks?

Pretty much.  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274


body:
Parker Peters wrote:

>There are any number of admin actions I do not have any problem with.
>Blocking of actual vandals, or even whole vandal IP ranges when there's
>something like a GNAA assault going on, I understand and agree with.
>
I don't think you're going to get much argument about this.  There is
wide support for this from all sides involved in this debate.

>What I have problems with are admins who are (A) stuck up, (B) over-egoed,
>(C) dickish, or (D) abusive. Admins who insult users, or who fail to
>properly sanction other users who are insulting someone, or go over the top
>blocking/banning one person while excusing horrid behavior on the part of
>others towards that person.
>
This is the whole problem in a nutshell.  Until this fact gets properly
impressed on those who sanction this kind of behaviour there will be no
end to this kind of ongoing argument.

I have not directly investigsated any of the specific allegations that
Parker has made, and I don't intend to.  Nor am I interested in whether
this or that particular admin is behaving abusively.  The generally
poiaoned atmosphere that these zealots are instilling is more
significant than any individual guilt.  The point is that it shouldn't
be happening at all.

Until we can find a way to deal seriously and severely with the
behaviours that Parker mentioned we cannot hope to build the
collaborative community that most of us profess to support.  Those of us
who have invested serious amounts of time in these projects, and have
thought deeply about its underlying principles despair just as much over
the actions of the petty tyrants as over the actions of the vandals.

Ec


from_name: Roger Dearnaley

body:
geni wrote:
> OK there is still some fiddling to be done but You can see the first
> example of something I hope will become widespread here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Mamet
>
> be sure to click the image to look around the stuff behind it (mostly
> a new separate image upload page but there are other things)
>
> As I said it isn't quite finished and suggestions are welcome.
>
> Much credit goes to Editor at Large for the SVG, Gmaxwell for much of
> the formatting and Brion for turning on the required extension on en.
>
Can you direct to the commons upload page, instead?  We should really
encourage all free images to go to commons.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Four things to say (No)

body:
You're not helping, at all. Stop begging for me to be moderated for The Truth, wake up, and smell the corrodite. Unless you can't handle the truth?

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:13:53 +0800
From: "NSLE (Wikipedia)"
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Four things to say
To: "English Wikipedia"
Message-ID:
 <4e1121f80702230913o7a4d71ecv187f5c14cd5d2573 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Okay, moderation now, please.

---------------------------------
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] Parker Peters

body:
On 23/02/07, John Lee <johnleemk at gmail.com> wrote:

> The moderators have agreed to ban this user from subscribing to the list.
> Since he was not making any positive contributions through his membership,
> it has been revoked.

Wonder what name he'll try next.

(This is twice now the same person's been responsible for all new
members being moderated.)

- d.


from_name: teun spaans

body:
Gerad,

"fair use" does not comply with the freedom as in freedomdefined.org. There
seems to be na rationale to allow fair use except that a large part of the
english community objects.

You keep repeating that NC and ND will be tolerated as "fair use", but so
far I've read no rationale for regarding them as such. They are simply two
totally different concepts.

kind regards,
teun

On 2/22/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> When material is used with a "Fair Use" argumentation, the license that
> this material would otherwise be available under is irrelevant. The
> material could even have a commercial license. The claim of Fair Use
> trumps any license restriction. When someone wants to re-publish
> Wikipedia, the same claim of Fair Use should apply. This is why it has
> to conform to the laws of the US and the local law(s).
>
> It is therefore really simple. On its own ND and NC will not be
> permitted. Within the limits of the law, there may be an EDP.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> Peter van Londen schreef:
> > I politely disagree,
> >
> > This will be the case when you leave too much room for interpretations.
> > By using an EDP approach, you leave all possibilities open for
> > non-conforming material to the freedomdefined definition. You might
> close
> > the gap of too far off EDP's with a control by anyone, any committee
> > (although there seems to be a disagreement between Kat and Eric about
> that),
> > but allowing images within an EDP conflicting with the freedomdefined
> > definition, like Fair Use, opens up in principle all possibilities for
> > communities to do whatever they want, conflicting with the original
> > definition.
> >
> > I asked you to explain me how you can use fair use images for commercial
> > exploitation and for derivative works: you could not David. But I am not
> > opposed to using Fair Use, as long as there are no juristic detrimental
> > implications for the Wikimedia projects, but then be clear about it. The
> > draft can be adjusted, so that interpretations can be minimized.
> >
> > Forget about an EDP: use the freedomdefined definition, with two
> exceptions:
> > Fair use images for the EN:WP and another exception for the Polish
> Wikinews.
> > Any other exception should have to be approved by the board/GC.
> >
> > Kind regards, Londenp
> >
> > 2007/2/22, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>:
> >
> >> On 22/02/07, Kat Walsh <kwalsh at wikimedia.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I am afraid of misconceptions and misinterpretations spreading too far
> >>> about what is to be allowed and what isn't, and I've been hearing
> >>> misinterpretations both on the too-inclusive and too-exclusive side...
> >>>
> >> I fear it's a case where either side will seize on anything that could
> >> possibly support their obviously correct view rather than the
> >> obviously misguided opposing view.
> >>
> >>
> >> - d.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


body:
On 23/02/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:

> This analogy is excessively dramatic. When considering granting admin
> privileges one needs to assume good faith in the absence of evidence to
> the contrary.

You haven't seen RFA lately then, I take it.

- d.


from_name: Bryan Derksen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Daniel Brandt

body:
Mark Ryan wrote:
> Administrator Yanksox has deleted Daniel Brandt's article with the
> following summary: "privacy concerns, more trouble than it is actually
> worth. Are you people even human?"

Riiiight. So I guess the implication is that we're expecting Daniel to
stop "troubling" Wikipedia now that his entry is gone.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say that in six months Daniel is still
"troubling" Wikipedia just as much as he is now. Does that mean we can
undelete his article then?


from_name: Marc Riddell

body:
on 2/22/07 1:44 PM, William Pietri at william at scissor.com wrote:

> I'd agree with that. On the other hand, there's this pattern I'm worried
> about that goes something like this:
>
> 1. A new user tries to do something that seems reasonable to them,
> but is annoying to us -- e.g., adding their friend's band to
> Wikipedia.
> 2. Almost instantly they receive a boilerplate negative reaction from
> us -- e.g., their article is speedied.
> 3. They struggle to understand what the hell is going on and do
> something they think is reasonable -- let's say they replace the
> speedy template with {{hangon}} and go on editing their article.
> 4. They get another instant boilerplate negative reaction and
> experience more frustration -- perhaps they get the template back,
> a user page warning for removing speedies, and an edit conflict to
> boot.
> 5. After repeatedly being frustrated in trying to do something they
> think is useful, they express their frustration with less than
> perfect politeness.
> 6. The cycle of negative interactions spirals until they end up blocked.
>
>
> And then from here, I'm sure a most of those people just go away,
> nursing their burnt fingers and telling their pals what jerks those
> Wikipedians are. A few of them take it as a great injustice and turn
> into long-term enemies.
>
> For this to happen, I don't think there need to be malice on either
> side, just ordinary human nature. My mother, who lives in a town with
> one stop light, would occasionally drive to Chicago to visit me. She was
> convinced that all Chicago drivers were either vicious or insane. Most
> of them weren't, but they were used to moving at such a pace and with
> such a focus on throughput that she took it as hostility and madness.
> They in turn saw her as hopelessly clueless and inconsiderate, and a
> great barrier to progress.

I absolutely relate to what your mother was feeling! Been there!
>
> I would rather we took more time with these people, as I think we
> currently create more enemies than we need, and discourage potential
> contributors.
>
> William

William,

Excellent, insightful post. Thanks.

I am going to suggest something as a possible remedy for the problems you
brought up.

When I first joined the WP Community I not only had no idea how to maneuver
within WP (and, yes I had read all of the intro stuff) my computer skills
consisted of point & click ? anything beyond that and I had to scream for a
computer tech. From day one, this wonderful WP Community Member came out of
the woodwork to help. They answered the 1000+ questions I had, and actually
helped me to format my User Page. I was very grateful for this, and it also
gave me an indication of, and made he very comfortable with, the WP culture.

So, how about this: When a new person registers to join the WP Community
they are automatically assigned, designated (whatever term you want) to an
established Community Member. This established Member would act as their
mentor for a given period of time. And any questions or problems the new
Member may have in the beginning could be mentored by this person.

If an idea like this has been proposed before & rejected, I would love to
know why. If it hasn?t as yet, what do you think?

Marc Riddell


from_name: Jim Wilson

body:
Steve Bennet wrote:
> Heh, I'd assumed you would add // and __, too. But then, I was coming
> at this from a kind of pure wiki syntax point of view, where as much
> syntax as possible is just doubled punctuation: ** // __ {{ [[ == .
> Though I now see that __ would conflict with some magic words like
> __NOTOC__.

Actually the underscores wouldn't conflict since the hook happens so late in
the process.  By the time the hook is run, those have already been removed.

And MW is smart enough to, for example __leave this alone__ since "leave
this alone" is not a recognized magic word.

Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> Because the goal is to leverage what people *actually do*.  I almost
> *never* see doubled punctuation.

That's a good point too though - I'm beginning to think I should probably
take the doubles back out.

Evan Prodromou wrote:
> You should probably look at reST, a popular wiki-like text format that
> is based on the same formatting conventions you're trying to emulate.

Yeah - that's interesting.  reST is one of many _many_ light markup
languages out there - like Markdown, Textile or APT[1].

Maybe what I should do is fix the current problems with UsenetSyntax (like
clobbering through tags and affecting preformatted text blocks) by breaking
it up into two extensions:

* One extension that doesn't do anything to the text itself, but adds a hook
that other extensions leverage to safely parse for their own syntax
* A demo implementation of such a leveraging extension which just so happens
to implement Usenet style syntax.

The upside of the previous plan is that I'm less likely to get bogged down
in "wouldn't it be cool if's" because extension devs can make their own.

The downside of the plan is that people might still send me "wouldn't it be
cool if's", and I'd have gone through the work of abstracting the layers for
no benefit.

-- Jim

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lightweight_markup_languages

On 2/23/07, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 02:24:09PM +1100, Steve Bennett wrote:
> > Two questions:
> > * Why *single* punctuation rather than **double**?
>
> Because the goal is to leverage what people *actually do*.  I almost
> *never* see doubled punctuation.
>
> > * Since when does anyone use or want underline on MediaWiki? :) Didn't
> > underline become evil when it became the web standard for hyperlinks?
>
> Pretty much.  :-)
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth
> jra at baylink.com
> Designer                          Baylink                             RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87
> e24
> St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647
> 1274
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Daniel Brandt

body:
NSLE (Wikipedia) wrote:
> I agree that the speedy endorsement was wrong. Anyway, for formality, AFD'd.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Daniel_Brandt_%2812th_nomination%29

Speedily closed again, since the article is apparently back on DRV
according to the closer. Also it appears that the redirect to [[Google
Watch]] that had briefly been created at [[Daniel Brandt]] has been
deleted too.

Glad we're being spared a lot of trouble by deleting this thing. :)


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Rob wrote:

>On 2/21/07, Parker Peters wrote:
>
>
>>Ideally? I'd like for administrators not to do the things that cause
>>problems. But that's not likely.
>>
>>
>Ideally, you would stop viewing every administrative action as
>resulting from a malicious abuse of power.  But that's not likely.
>
Parker did not speak of  "every" administrative action.  Reading that
into what he says is dishonest.

>>If Adminship were not a big deal, then losing adminship would not be a big
>>deal. However, the bar for losing adminship is nearly impossibly high.
>>If Adminship were not a big deal, the ever-growing requirements for it would
>>not be ever-growing. But they are.
>>
>>
>I agree that we should probably treat adminship as a more of a big
>deal.  But I don't worry about "abusive" admins, not to protect my own
>"power" ("you'll have to pry my mop from my cold dead fingers!") but
>because we already have ArbCom to deal with the worst offenders.
>Given that I don't see nearly every admin as malicious and abusive, I
>think that this is a sufficent remedy. No malicious admin can prevent
>an abused user from bringing a matter before them.
>
Again no-one else is trying to distort the argument into being one about
"every admin"   How much ArbCom can realistically consider is limited by
the time that its members have available.  If you see ArbCom as dealing
with the "worst offenders" this is a serious drift from the original
intention of ArbCom.  May I remind you that it was originally
established to diminish the need for those being disciplined to appeal
directly to Jimbo; it was an appelate function; its duties did not
include a first instance determination of responsibility.

In theory, yes, anyone can bring a matter before ArbCom.  In reality
very few people in real life have the skills or understanding needed to
bring a case before an appelate court.  Your assertion assumes that
everyone has the skills, and that new immigrants and babies have innate
abilities to immediately grasp all the steps that must be followed to
pursue a case.  Your presumption that everyone approaches ArbCom as an
equal fails on that basis.

>>(A) "Scarlet Letter" abuse. Users clearing/archiving warnings that they've
>>already seen, or clearing off bad-faith tagging such as "suspected
>>sockpuppet" tags or "warning" templates placed by abusive users trying to
>>harass another user (usually claiming that a difference of opinion on a
>>content matter is "vandalism), are routinely targeted by administrators. The
>>goal of both abusive users and administrators is to rile the editor up. This
>>is deliberate provocation, completely incivil, and all too common - yet it
>>is regularly given a free pass by the administrator community.
>>
>>
>If I put a warning tag on a user talk page, it's because that user has
>done something meriting a warning, not to "rile the editor up".  They
>should not be removed because they serve as a notice to other
>administrators that this user has a history of negative behavior.
>
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a person removing such a notice
from his own talk page.  If he removes it himself that is proof that he
has seen it.  The primary purpose of user talk pages is to communicate
to that user; anything removed from the current page remains in the
history of the page.  There are plenty of other means for administrators
to communicate with each other.  Blocking someone because he has removed
a warning tag from the current version of his own talk page is
unequivocally abusive.

>>Administrators need to understand: BLOCKING SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET THEM
>>MAD. It is an action that is agressive and adversarial. No matter what the
>>temperament of the user, they will feel angry over this. They are likely to
>>leave a message that lashes out in anger at whoever did it, PARTICULARLY if
>>it is not justified within the rules or they already feel picked-upon by the
>>admin or his/her cronies.
>>
>>
>The fact that a block gets someone MAD does not justify further abuse,
>and the talk page should not be used to give a troll a soapbox to
>attack people.
>
In an ideal world the wronged person should maintain the tranquility of
a saint.  Admins should learn to recognize when their own actions have
angered a user and should restrain from further abuse that would have
the effect of sending the user over the top.  I expect admins to know
better than to keep trolling those persons that they have already angered.

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Daniel Brandt

body:
Trebor Rowntree wrote:
> Frankly, two and a half hours for a DRV is bordering on the ridiculous. Very
> few people have the opportunity to see it and form opinions in this time;
> hell, a lot of them won't even be awake. This was a vastly out of process
> speedy deletion, considering the article had survived so many AfDs. But we
> could perhaps consider it to be in the spirit of IAR.

I doubt undeleting it again under the same spirit of IAR would go over well.

Myself, I'm about to head out of the house and be without internet
connectivity for at least eight hours. It's not even a question of
sleeping. The speediness with which this is all being done is silly
considering how long the article and its attendant "controversy" has
been around.


body:
Rob wrote:

>On 2/21/07, Rich Holton wrote:
>
>
>>However, the more I think about the way interactions take place on
>>Wikipedia, the more I am convinced that the asymmetry in power and
>>experience between an admin and a typical editor results in vastly
>>different perspectives on the same actions. What seems (and in fact is)
>>reasonable to an admin or an experienced user, can seem to be (and in
>>fact is) a demonstration of admin "dickism" to a newbie.
>>
>>
>This is pretty much the problem.  To many newbies, admins represent
>the power elite, The Man, and not individual volunteers, thus they
>think nothing of subjecting them to abuse.  Any response is seen as an
>abuse of power, even when the incident is relatively innocuous.
>
You can't be accused of lacking in self-righteousness, or of not having
a flair for the melodramatic.

Ec


from_name: Jeff Raymond

subject: [WikiEN-l] Daniel Brandt

body:
Mark Ryan wrote:

> Consensus there appears to be to endorse the deletion.
>
> I thought it would be important to mention this on the mailing list,
> considering the number of people who have participated in debates over
> the existence of the Daniel Brandt article over the years.

Every time I think I can't get more disgusted, something else happens.
It's bad enough we can get the right mix of editors to bully the rest of
us around, now we're going to cave to Brandt?

Incredibly, insanely lame.

-Jeff

--
Name: Jeff Raymond
E-mail: jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com
WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com
IM: badlydrawnjeff
Quote: "As the hobbits are going up Mount Doom, the
	Eye of Mordor is being drawn somewhere else."
	- Sen. Rick Santorum on the war in Iraq.


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

body:
Hoi.
You got it completely backwards. Content tagged as NC and ND will on its
own not be permitted. It will be deleted by 2008 according to the draft
resolution. When a project has an EDP, fair use may be permitted. This
is indeed explicitly not in compliance with the notions of the
freedomdefined.org. Fair use material may have a license, any license,
including NC and ND. This material will be permitted on the basis of the
EDP and on the basis of it being considered Fair use. I have never ever
said that an EDP will allow for all NC or ND.

What I have said, but not in this thread, that there is no provision for
the inclusion of logos of organisations. It is extremely useful to have
logos in our encyclopaedia. The notion that these logos have to be
available under a license that will allow people to make derivatives is
moronic. In my opinion it is being over-zealous in how we provide a Free
resource. The first criteria for our projects is providing information.
This is forgotten in the argument. Now this is just one reason why it is
good to have an EDP; this way a project can have logos of organisations
on its articles and Commons can be what it is; only a resource of
digital material available under a Free license.

Thanks
    GerardM

teun spaans schreef:
> Gerad,
>
> "fair use" does not comply with the freedom as in freedomdefined.org. There
> seems to be na rationale to allow fair use except that a large part of the
> english community objects.
>
> You keep repeating that NC and ND will be tolerated as "fair use", but so
> far I've read no rationale for regarding them as such. They are simply two
> totally different concepts.
>
> kind regards,
> teun
>
> On 2/22/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> When material is used with a "Fair Use" argumentation, the license that
>> this material would otherwise be available under is irrelevant. The
>> material could even have a commercial license. The claim of Fair Use
>> trumps any license restriction. When someone wants to re-publish
>> Wikipedia, the same claim of Fair Use should apply. This is why it has
>> to conform to the laws of the US and the local law(s).
>>
>> It is therefore really simple. On its own ND and NC will not be
>> permitted. Within the limits of the law, there may be an EDP.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>     GerardM
>>
>> Peter van Londen schreef:
>>
>>> I politely disagree,
>>>
>>> This will be the case when you leave too much room for interpretations.
>>> By using an EDP approach, you leave all possibilities open for
>>> non-conforming material to the freedomdefined definition. You might
>>>
>> close
>>
>>> the gap of too far off EDP's with a control by anyone, any committee
>>> (although there seems to be a disagreement between Kat and Eric about
>>>
>> that),
>>
>>> but allowing images within an EDP conflicting with the freedomdefined
>>> definition, like Fair Use, opens up in principle all possibilities for
>>> communities to do whatever they want, conflicting with the original
>>> definition.
>>>
>>> I asked you to explain me how you can use fair use images for commercial
>>> exploitation and for derivative works: you could not David. But I am not
>>> opposed to using Fair Use, as long as there are no juristic detrimental
>>> implications for the Wikimedia projects, but then be clear about it. The
>>> draft can be adjusted, so that interpretations can be minimized.
>>>
>>> Forget about an EDP: use the freedomdefined definition, with two
>>>
>> exceptions:
>>
>>> Fair use images for the EN:WP and another exception for the Polish
>>>
>> Wikinews.
>>
>>> Any other exception should have to be approved by the board/GC.
>>>
>>> Kind regards, Londenp
>>>
>>> 2007/2/22, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 22/02/07, Kat Walsh <kwalsh at wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I am afraid of misconceptions and misinterpretations spreading too far
>>>>> about what is to be allowed and what isn't, and I've been hearing
>>>>> misinterpretations both on the too-inclusive and too-exclusive side...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I fear it's a case where either side will seize on anything that could
>>>> possibly support their obviously correct view rather than the
>>>> obviously misguided opposing view.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - d.