from_name: Carl Prine

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Fwd: Block

body:
Hello.

Actually, I would welcome a call.  I was asked to post that email because
the original editor was "blocked" (I don't understand the whole procedure),
and she felt I had been wronged in the past and that I would take action on
her behalf.

If she can appeal for help on her own, then no one needs me to do so, and I
will gladly get out of the Wiki complaints business.

While I might be a "self-important reporter," I was simply posting for a
young colleague.  A few minutes of searching and I found a person, Jimmy
Donal Wales, who can talk to her.

I am not a contributor to Wiki. I have never threatened anyone with libel
proceedings, and I am bemused that Corrinne's attempts to edit a page on an
Internet site set about this chain of events.

Most sincerely,

Carl Prine

-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org]
On Behalf Of Stan Shebs
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 6:05 PM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Fwd: Block

Rob wrote:

>
>He has long claimed nearly everything someone posts to
>the article or the talk page is libelous in some form
>or another.  I am surprised to learn from the headers
>of the email David Gerard forwarded that apparently
>the anon is Carl Prine, an award winning PTR reporter.
> One would think a reporter wouldn't throw around
>accusations of libel so casually.
>
Since you have the real name, it might be worthwhile simply to
call him on the phone and ask why he's doing this - or, to be
really evil, call his editor on the phone. To be truly diabolic
though, call the editor of a *competing* paper, heh-heh-heh.

WP isn't an 800-pound gorilla yet, but it's at least 300
pounds, and we shouldn't be letting self-important
reporters push us around.

Stan

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Noah

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Blocked Tor IP Address

body:
Sure thing.  CC'd.

-N

Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Can you send this to wikitech-l?
>
>Noah wrote:
>
>
>>To whom it may concern,
>>
>>I would love to contribute to your Wikipedia project, but I am running a
>>Tor server.  However, my Tor server is merely an intermediate node, and
>>does not allow direct egress, nor ingress.  I feel that Gadfium has made
>>an error in his parsing of the Tor server lists, as this information (in
>>the form of the rule, "reject *:*") is necessarily published as part of
>>the Tor network.
>>
>>Please forward this information along to the other admins, as there is a
>>programmatic way to block Tor servers that actually allow exit traffic
>>to a particular host and port (such as 80, in the case of Wikipedia).
>>
>>My current Tor server information is available below, and in the
>>automatically published Tor directories.
>>
>>http://serifos.eecs.harvard.edu:8000/cgi-bin/desc.pl?q=spunkybukkake
>>
>>
>>Thanks for your time,
>>
>>-Noah
>>
>>
>>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Idea for a new Wikipedia

body:
> Oh. Sorry. But you were already involved in Wikipedia when you were 18
> and even younger, no?

18 yes, even younger, no;)


from_name: Uwe Baumbach

subject: [Wikitech-l] Managing multilanguage wikis - with common data

body:
Hi,

we plan to upgrade our wiki from 1.3.0Beta1 to 1.4.1.

After that we want to open two other instances with different language support but the "same" content area.

Please help with (links to) comments, suggests, possible problems, documentation or help for this situation.
Especially I am interested in issues concerning configuration, upload and use of common data (images!) in the different instances without (?) redundancy.

Being a beginner I am searching for general information about that.
Thanks for your patience.

Uwe?Baumbach
U.Baumbach at web.de

______________________________________________________________
Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193


from_name: John Fader

subject: [Wikitech-l] htmltidy on new (european)? webserver

body:
Hi,
  We've had a couple of instances over the last day or so (on en
wikipedia) where users signatures (that have naughty unbalanced html
tags) are messing up the page.  I guess one of the webservers doesn't
have htmltidy set up.

Two of the users are in europe, one in the US, so ''maybe'' it's one
of the european servers (I can supply deltas if that will help).

And yes, all the offending users are in the process of being hectored
about sanitary html practices...

--
John Fader


list: wikien-l

from_name: mbecker ™

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Prudishness and censorship

body:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:29:17 (GMT), jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk
<jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk> wrote:

I don't want to get involved with this discussion, and like others on
the various mailing lists that these (sometimes childish) arguements
have ensued I have chosen to ignore the many threads for quite
sometime. I would like to respectfully ask that these conversations
please be moved off list to the appropriate pages. May I suggest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Profanity
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Should_Wikipedia_Use_Profanity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_disclaimer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Graphic_and_potentially_disturbing_images
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_censorship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_use_policy

Also, concerning the following statement:

>I find links to porn sites, especially with a clear disclaimer, much
less troublesome than images that pop up without warning.
> JFW

I have never had any issue with images poping up on Wikipedia, and
certainly not without warning. We
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_disclaimer which
explicitly says "Wikipedia contains many different images, some of
which are considered objectionable or offensive by some readers." I'd
consider that a reasonable warning. Anyway, this is not my main issue.
Please move these conversations off list.
Thank You!

--
Michael Becker


from_name: Sj

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Whew!  What a dust-up.  Cormac rocks for helping coordinate this
mailing, despite its crazy goal of being deeply language neutral.
Multilingual announcements are harder than they look.

On 4/19/05, Cormac Lawler <cormaggio at gmail.com> wrote:
> And once again, nobody's forcing anyone to accept this mail -
> hopefully we can provide a choice that suits all. And there are no
> images in the html version (although I originally wanted to include
> the wikimedia logo, but decided it was too much hassle).

When I viewed the original html email in my text-only mail reader (one
which does not recognize and mark up URLs), it was legible and not
aesthetically offensive, though it was clearly an HTML message. I
think it was a good compromise between brevity and inclusivity
(there's just no good way to scroll through 50 mini-paragraphs of text
to find the one in your language, without some kind of TOC).  On the
other hand, this is just the other end of the spectrum of "how can we
send PDFs to people who prefer to receive them by email without
troubling those who don't?" ...

Starting out with a text email is simple, and will help limit the
amount of work for you at first (Cormac).  We can leave it at one
sentence per language, and link to an on-wiki HTML version of the
announcement...  and then discuss offering more elaborate preferences
later (while also working on the mechanics of maintaining the list).

SJ, regretting slightly that this conversation is in English on an
English-dominated list

> Ja
>
> Wikimedia Quarto
> ?????????????????????2??2005?1???3?15???????????5??????????????????3??????????????????????????

Great.  If you're feeling lucky, you should try it with some Malayalam
text to be sure :-)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
I don't want to get involved with this discussion, and like others on
the various mailing lists that these (sometimes childish) arguements
have ensued I have chosen to ignore the many threads for quite
sometime. I would like to respectfully ask that these conversations
please be moved off list to the appropriate pages. May I suggest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Profanity
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Should_Wikipedia_Use_Profanity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_disclaimer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Graphic_and_potentially_disturbing_images
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_censorship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_use_policy

Please move these conversations off list.
Thank You!

--
Michael Becker


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
I don't want to get involved with this discussion, and like others on
the various mailing lists that these (sometimes childish) arguements
have ensued I have chosen to ignore the many threads for quite
sometime. I would like to respectfully ask that these conversations
please be moved off list to the appropriate pages. May I suggest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Profanity
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Should_Wikipedia_Use_Profanity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_disclaimer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Graphic_and_potentially_disturbing_images
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_censorship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_use_policy

Please move these conversations off list.
Thank You!


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Suggestions for a work-safe encyclopedia


subject: [WikiEN-l] Why linking an image gives less choice to the reader


from_name: Cormac Lawler

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is
multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever)
send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or
Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold. I tried this by copying the
text in question viewed in unicode and got a load of rubbish for some
symbols and a nothing but question marks for Japanese. Is this simply
because i haven't got my computer set to czech, japanese etc? Is it
this simple? If not, what does the sender have to do? (Bearing in mind
that the idea is to have a whole message of many languages rather than
having to target the language to the person - though not that anyone
has actually said that.)

The secondary point is that a html layout would be attractive, which,
if given the option, many would actively choose. Everyone who
originally subscribed to foundation-news-l did so in the knowledge
that the announcement was to be a html email (because I told them).
Not to assume that everyone wants this, but just to put the objections
here in context.

Cormac


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pdf horrors

body:
I started an article once, but it got lossed in my disorganised life
and eventually vanished entirely.

Mark

On 19/04/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Finne Boonen a ?crit:
> > I'm going to temprorarily hijack this thread :)
> >
> > Please think twice before making pdf's. pdf's are worse then html.
> > Screenreaders cannot always handle pdf's since not all pdfs that
> > contain text contain text, often they just contain images of the text.
> > People with various reading problems (from simply needing reading
> > glasses, to dyslexia) have no way to adapt a pdf to what they can
> > read.
> >
> > Thanks, I'll now step off my soapbox and let the debate rage on about
> > the quarto mail.
> >
> > Finne
>
> Sigh...
>
> If you were all so motivated to just get involved in WRITING IN the
> Quarto... :-)
>
> /me returns trying to write the board report...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Gregory Maxwell a ?crit:
> On 4/18/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>yo. I think most of us would prefer it to be in html... for quite a
>>number of reason (such as links).
>
>
> HTML mails would make me unsub, perhaps that wouldn't be universally bad. :)

I did not understand what unsub means.

> As far as links go, your MUA should see them and make them clickable
> even without html mail, I'm sure someone here can make some
> recommendations for your platform...

I have no idea what MUA means.

> Hmm.. Inline images might have been useful in our discussions about
> sexual images on wikipedia, I suppose... :)

I can't figure what you mean.

If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be
helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more people.

It is a general comment, not limited to you only. Maybe I am a bit
stupid these days.

Ant


from_name: Edward Z. Yang

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: vandalism under similar name

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Anthere wrote:
> will try...
>
> Even if that works, it is embarassing that two different people appear
> with the same name. Imho.
>
> Ant

Hmm... what about Punycode? Could that be an applicable solution for
this problem?

- --
 Edward Z. Yang      Personal: edwardzyang at thewritingpot.com
 SN:Ambush Commander Website: http://www.thewritingpot.com/
 GPGKey:0x869C48DA   http://www.thewritingpot.com/gpgpubkey.asc
 3FA8 E9A9 7385 B691 A6FC B3CB A933 BE7D 869C 48DA
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFCZZlIqTO+fYacSNoRAshsAJ48sdC6PwRPBw4r62ISYm7lpB4J6ACfaMR1
DupoZLJhR6vEdqJNcXXu1bw=
=JKA6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Uhh... how is it a crazy goal? What, should we forget the linguistic
integrity and lingustic human rights of all the peoples of the world
and tell them they can use English or go screw themselves?
????????"Crazy goal"?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

On a side note, "??5???" is wrong, I counted a total of 9 so it should
be "Wikimedia Quarto?????????????????????2??2005?1???3?15??????????????????????????????3?????????????????????????"

Also there's the problem that "??" can often be taken to mean the
language of a country, and thus exclude languages like Catalan and the
like which are "nationless" (Catalan is official in Andorra, though).
I've seen another term used instead but I don't remember what it is.

Mark

On 19/04/05, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Whew!  What a dust-up.  Cormac rocks for helping coordinate this
> mailing, despite its crazy goal of being deeply language neutral.
> Multilingual announcements are harder than they look.
>
> On 4/19/05, Cormac Lawler <cormaggio at gmail.com> wrote:
> > And once again, nobody's forcing anyone to accept this mail -
> > hopefully we can provide a choice that suits all. And there are no
> > images in the html version (although I originally wanted to include
> > the wikimedia logo, but decided it was too much hassle).
>
> When I viewed the original html email in my text-only mail reader (one
> which does not recognize and mark up URLs), it was legible and not
> aesthetically offensive, though it was clearly an HTML message. I
> think it was a good compromise between brevity and inclusivity
> (there's just no good way to scroll through 50 mini-paragraphs of text
> to find the one in your language, without some kind of TOC).  On the
> other hand, this is just the other end of the spectrum of "how can we
> send PDFs to people who prefer to receive them by email without
> troubling those who don't?" ...
>
> Starting out with a text email is simple, and will help limit the
> amount of work for you at first (Cormac).  We can leave it at one
> sentence per language, and link to an on-wiki HTML version of the
> announcement...  and then discuss offering more elaborate preferences
> later (while also working on the mechanics of maintaining the list).
>
> SJ, regretting slightly that this conversation is in English on an
> English-dominated list
>
>
> > Ja
> >
> > Wikimedia Quarto
> > ?????????????????????2??2005?1???3?15???????????5??????????????????3??????????????????????????
>
> Great.  If you're feeling lucky, you should try it with some Malayalam
> text to be sure :-)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bambara Wikipedia Launch Competition

body:
if you know about Bambara Yann, could you answer or comment the mail I
forwarded to the french ml about 2 days ago about Bambara characters ?

Thanks

Ant

Yann Forget a ?crit:
> Hi,
>
> I don't think that this initiative was advertised.
> I find it interesting.
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bambara_Wikipedia_Launch_Competition
> http://bm.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Concours_de_lancement
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
>


list: wikimedia-l


body:
will try...

Even if that works, it is embarassing that two different people appear
with the same name. Imho.

Ant

E23 a ?crit:
> Shouldn't be a problem, MediaWiki is smart enough to tell the names
> apart if you click "block" after the name in RC. Also, if in doubt,
> why not make a short block just to see how it works?
>
> /E23
>
> On 4/19/05, Anthere anthere9-at-yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>A request came to me from lb wikipedia.
>>
>>The "good" user is this one :
>>http://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/User%3ACornischong
>>
>>The "bad" user is this one :
>>http://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/User%3ACorni%C2%ADschong
>>
>>In recent changes, they both appear as Cornischong. But the vandal is in
>>reality Corni-schong
>>
>>Cornischong is an admin on this wiki, he does not dare blocking the
>>other Cornischong by fear he will be blocked as well...
>>
>>What do you suggest ?
>>
>>Anthere
>>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Sanger/Wales wars continued

body:
Why, then, were there no objections from Jimbo before one year ago, at
least that I know of?

Just because you have an idea, doesn't make you a founder.

Mark

On 19/04/05, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> > I don't think any reasonable person would object to calling Larry a
> > "co-founder of Wikipedia". To call one troll on a blog comment a
> > "debate" is to blow things extraordinarily out of proportion.
>
> Since Jimbo has explicitly objected to calling Larry a "co-founder of
> Wikipedia" several times, including in replies to one of Larry's
> Kuro5hin articles, I'm not sure how it's just "one troll".  According to
> Jimbo, Larry neither co-founded Wikipedia nor proposed the idea of a
> wiki-based encyclopedia, but was merely an employee tasked with starting
> it up.
>
> -Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
On 4/19/05, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
> Le Tuesday 19 April 2005 20:27, Cormac Lawler a ?crit :
> > Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is
> > multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever)
> > send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or
> > Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold.
>
> No problem:
>
> cs: Wikimedia Quarto je ofici?ln? bulletin nadace Wikimedia.
>
> de: Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> en: The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> es: Wikimedia Quarto es el bolet?n oficial de la Fundaci?n Wikimedia.
>
> fr: Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia
> Foundation.
>
> it: Wikimedia Quarto ? la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia.
>
> ja: Wikimedia Quarto ?????????????????????2??
>
> pl: Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia.
>
> pt: Wikimedia Quarto ? o boletim oficial da Funda??o Wikimedia.
>
> > Cormac
>
> Regards,
> Yann
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
> http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
>

Thanks very much Yann and Mark - how exactly did you do this? I had
more or less understood Chad originally, but when i tried doing as i
said above, it didn't work in either of my mail clients, yahoo and
gmail. Also, I still want to know why Anthere said this was a bad
solution - I didn't really understand either.
Cormac


from_name: Charles Matthews

body:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com>
To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 7:46 PM
Subject: [WikiEN-l] I'll take care of it (was: Intolerance directed
towardspoor English)

> > Would a simple explanation
> on the talk page and a regular call to editors to clean up
> the user's bad English in his contributions be enough? If
> it's cleaned up, no one can complain about it.
>
> It is hard to ring-fence the 'problem'.  New articles like
> [[Yen block]] and
> [[yuan of Manchuria]] are being spun out all the time.
>
> I can quite see why these cause puzzlement.  If you don't
> know the dialect
> ('poses' = 'possess' = 'have') it looks weird.  But if people
> used CleanUp
> as intended it would be better.

Ed Poor wrote

>I'm willing to clean up any "poor English" articles you send my way.

OK Ed - [[Manshukoku Koku KK]] is fresh in.

Charles


subject:
[WikiEN-l] I'll take care of it (was: Intolerance directed
	towardspoor English)

body:
That one was probably too easy.  Ed, [[Numbers of Japanese Empire Finances]]
would atone for plenty.

Charles


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi Anthere,

Le Tuesday 19 April 2005 19:52, Anthere a ?crit :
> if you know about Bambara Yann, could you answer or comment the mail I
> forwarded to the french ml about 2 days ago about Bambara characters ?

I saw your mail, but I don't know bambara.
Sorry.

> Thanks
>
> Ant

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Conflict between two Wikipedias

body:
" ro.wiki este doar pentru limba rom?n?, cu mo.wiki pentru limba
moldoveneasc?. Singurul mod ?n care noi vom accepta ca leg?tura s?
mearg? la Rom?n?/Moldovenasc? (Latin) va fi c?nd mo.wiki va deveni o
Wikipedie de dezambiguizare ?i con?inutul chirilic se va muta la un
subdomain nou. P?n? atunci, ro.wiki nu este numit? Wikipedia pentru
rom?n?/moldoveneasc? ?n latin, fiind c? este doar pentru limba rom?n?,
care ?ntotdeauna se scrie ?n Latin. Nu vreau s? sun arogant - dar dac?
voi nu vre?i s? v? face?i mo.wiki ca o Wikipedie numai pentru
alfabetul chirilic, care efectiv discrimineaz? pe majoritatea care
folose?te alfabetul latin, atunci nu a?tepta ca ro.wiki s? v? fac?
concesii."

I just received this in Romanian on my talkpage on mo.wiki. Most
people can probably understand it but I will help some: "limba romana"
 = Romanian, limba moldoveneasca = Moldovan, "ca legatura sa mearga la
Romana/Moldoveneasca (Latin)" = "link that merges them as
Romanian/Moldovan (Latin)", "ro.wiki nu este numita Wikipedia pentru
romana/moldoveneasca in latin"  - "ro.wiki isn't the Wikipedia for
Romanian/Moldovan in Latin", " doar pentru"  = " it's only for", "care
intotdeauna se scrie in Latin"  = "which is always written in Latin",
"care efectiv discrimineaza pe majoritatea care foloseste alfabetul
latin" = "which is effectively discriminating against the majority
which uses the Latin alphabet", "atunci nu astepta ca ro.wiki sa va
faca concesii" = "in light of this ro.wiki isn't going to make any
concessions".

Now, this is solely in response to my changes on the mo.wiki mainpage,
rather than me doing anything on the Romanian Wikipedia or making
requests of Ronline.

But in doing this, Ronline is making the statement that Moldovan and
Romanian are separate languages, which is doubtful at best and
laughable at worst.

Also, he is purposefully attempting to exclude Wikipedians from
ro.wikipedia based simply on their nationality, and is unwilling to
make any accommodations at all for that 14% of the Romano-Moldovan
speaking population which lives in Moldova.

He conveniently excludes the fact that, discrimination or not, there
is already an accommodation for Latin users on mo.wiki - there is a
prominent link to ro.wikipedia, saying that "if you would prefer to
use the Moldovan Wikipedia in the Latin alphabet, go here".

Instead he suggests that Moldovans who prefer the Latin alphabet can
go to mo.wiki instead of ro.wiki, and that they will not be welcomed
at ro.wiki based solely on their nationality.

Now, not only is that "incorrect", but it is entirely unacceptable
from a Wikimedia point of view because it separates two populations
more on the basis of nationality rather than actual linguistic
differences.

In addition, ro.wiki is only hurting itself by turning away that 14%
of possible content writers whose contributions would barely be
noticed as using a slightly different spelling.

At the same time, the pages on ro.wiki state in parenthesis - all over
- that Moldovan = Romanian. So, if Ronline feels that this is not the
case and that they are in fact separate languages, why doesn't he fix
his native Wikipedia pages like
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rom%C3%A2na_moldoveneasc%C4%83_estic%C4%83
which say POV things like "Rom?na moldoveneasc? estic? (denumit? ?i
limba moldoveneasc? din motive politice) este o ramur? a rom?nei
moldovene?ti, un grai al limbii rom?ne, vorbit? fiind ?n Republica
Moldova." = "Eastern Moldovan Romanian (called "Moldovan language" for
political motives) is the Moldovan variety of Romanian, a branch of
the Romanian languages, spoken in the Republic of Moldova". How is
that POV, when over 1 million people clearly state that their mother
tongue Moldovan? For your Wikipedia to write these people off as
insignificant or to pass judgement on them as only renaming their
speech for political motives is at best not NPOV, and at worst an
attempt to promote a Romanian nationalist agenda.

Mark

On 18/04/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Again I would like to point out that you are
> > emphasising >what is
> > >"right" or "correct". Why does that matter? Why
> > should >we care?
> >
> > I am emphasising what is right because that is what we
> > should be striving towards. Just because any
> > Moldovans, who you seem to think are the only ones who
> > have an authoritative right to a say in this, haven't
> > complained, doesn't mean that the idea of is right.
>
> Why should we be striving towards it when the current solution works
> just fine and we have only received complaints from foreigners?
>
> > Now, you're going to say again something along the
> > lines of "Yes, you keep on using the word right. Who
> > cares what's right". Well, we *should* care about
> > what's right! For example, we couldn't go ahead now
> > and form a Romanian Wikipedia without diacritical
> > symbols, just because the Romanian community supports
> > it, even when it is incorrect. In this example,
> > writing Romanian with no diacritics would be easier
> > and, hypothetically, let's say it would be supported
> > by the community, which , hypothetically, is made up
> > of 1 person. Does that mean we should actually
> > implement that proposal? Just because the "community"
> > agrees to something doesn't make it right, doesn't
> > mean that it's correct for, in the example, the
> > ro.wiki to be written without diacritic symbols.
>
> Actually, if the entire community supports it, it's fine. The thing is
> though the system is self-correcting. If you have a community of 3
> people, as in the case of mo.wiki, who vote unanimously to do
> something that's "wrong", if it's truly a problem eventually somebody
> will come along and complain, or try to fix it, or whatever. That just
> hasn't happened yet.
>
> > The same goes for mo.wiki. There is basically *one*
> > Moldovan Cyrillic contributor, and you're saying that
> > just because he hasn't complained, then it's OK,
> > because no Moldovan contributor has so far complained.
> > Why? Because *there is no Moldovan wiki community*.
> > There is just one person! I think there might have
> > actually been a Moldovan contributor at ro.wiki which
> > is no longer active. But that's about all. For that
> > reason, we can't base ourselves here on "we do what
> > the Moldovans think, because they're the ones who
> > should have the most say." If we go by that principle,
> > then we won't get anywhere, because there isn't yet,
> > unfortunately, a Moldovan Wikipedia community.
>
> Why? As I noted above, it is a self-correcting system.
>
> Every time a Wikipedia is started, the founding contributors make
> important decisions. Sometimes these are bad decisions which, when
> more people join, are struck down democratically. But so far this has
> not happened. As they say, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". And it
> ain't broke, at least not according to the only Moldovan user to weigh
> in on the issue. When more Moldovans arrive, if they have a problem
> with it, that issue can be addressed /then/ and it can be "fixed".
>
>  > So, as you keep on blaming the ro.wiki community for,
> > there's nothing wrong with us getting involved. The
> > same goes in your case - there's nothing wrong about
> > you getting involved, as a non-Moldovan, in this
> > issue. We *all*, as Wikimedia contributors, have a
> > right to involve ourselves in *all* Wikimedia issues
> > as long as we are adequately informed. And I think
> > both of us, and many other people who have given an
> > opinion, have done so in an informed, comprehensive
> > manner.
>
> The difference is, I have actually contributed my time and effort to
> mo.wiki. I have transliterated articles, reverted vandalism, and the
> like. ro.wikipedians, on the other hand, only heard about it just now
> from your userpage, and as you can see on the talkpages on mo:, all
> they ever do is come over and write "This is wrong, it shouldn't be
> this way. --Romanianfromrowiki" and then retreat back to ro.wikipedia
> never to appear again.
>
> Thus, even though I am not a Moldovan I consider myself a part of the
> community, and I see you and other ro.wikipedians as outsiders - you
> come along and complain about the status quo without giving anything,
> and on top of that you're not Moldovans.
>
> At the moment, mo.wikipedia is my temporary home. As you can perhaps
> observe from my activity on various Wikipedias, I'm not really active
> much on en.wiki anymore, but I make tiny contributions here and there
> to other Wikis. However I have recently focused a bit on mo.wikipedia,
> writing new content, transliterating existing content, replacing
> content duplication with interwiki redirects, etc.
>
>  > >There have been
> > >no complaints from actual Moldovans, only from
> > >Romanians, and they are
> > >all politically motivated.
> >
> > I don't think you can actually say that all the
> > comments are politically motivated. If you read the
> > discussion page at ro.wiki, you will see that many
> > Romanians actually enforce the idea of having a
> > Moldovan Wikipedia, and recognise the need for one. I
> > don't think you can blame most of the community for
> > being either superficial or politically-motivated.
> > Most of us have said that - yes, having a mo.wiki is
> > OK, even in Cyrillic script, but it needs to be at a
> > separate subdomain, due to all the reasons that I've
> > mentioned in my numerous past messages.
>
> What, then, do these Romanians say about the fact that any
> Latin-script content is sure to be a near-duplication of Romanian
> content?
>
> mo.wiki started out as a biscriptal Wikipedia, but following
> complaints from Danutz, the policy was re-evaluated and it was decided
> that we should only use Cyrillic because Latin script-users needs are
> already satisfied closely by ro.wikipedia.
>
>  > >My solution is practical, and currently it is working
> > >fine.
> >
> > True. By the way, don't think I'm trying to argue with
> > you just for the sake of it. Your POV is actually a
> > very legitimate one on this issue and it is the most
> > practical. I "admit" that as you said. And it's
> > working fine. At the moment. What I mean by at the
> > moment is that 1) it will get more problematic in the
> > future and it's better to solve the problems now and
> > 2) you can't really call it working, because the is 1
> > contributor! There is basically no community yet.
>
> We can go down that road when we come to it. We don't need to deal
> with future problems now. And you are wrong - while there is only one
> actual Moldovan, I have worked a lot on mo.wiki, and there have been
> minor contributions from a couple of others as well.
>
> > I see there have been people (it may be the same user
> > as the Cyrillic one, actually I think it is) who have
> > already made Latin script contributions. Already it's
> > starting to become problematic. What happens if a user
> > comes and makes Latin script contributions? Should we
> > simply move them to ro.wiki? Or should we keep the
> > mo.wiki a biscriptal confusion?
>
> Move them? Why not redirect them? In every one of these cases,
>
> > There have been many cases where a single contributor
> > has started something, which is not technically right,
> > and then when a larger community came, the project had
> > to be moved somewhere. You must realise that by
> > putting only Cyrillic content at mo.wiki, we become
> > terribly biased towards that script? Why should
> > Wikipedia, the free, NPOV encyclopedia, be like that?
> > And why should we then have to change everything when
> > Moldovan Latin users come over and start adding
> > content to the mo.wiki?
>
> If it's NPOV, then why does Cyrillic get the short end of the stick?
> You say it's because it's a minority and it's not official. But in the
> world of NPOV, it doesn't matter whether or not a POV is widely held
> or officially endorsed. What matters is that it's POV.
>
> And I don't see the problem with crossing that bridge when we come to it.
>
> > >the only people who have a problem with it are
> > >Romanians who are trying to meddle in the affairs of
> > >the Moldovan
> > >Wikipedia for political reasons and replace the
> > >perfectly working
> > >status quo with some sort of cumbersome change that
> > >they say is
> > >technically correct, which will make the URL longer
> > >and require the
> > >assistance of a developer.
> >
> > You're saying this as if it would require registering
> > a new domain, setting up a new interface and writing
> > new software! It's really not that hard to make a new
> > subdomain! It's being done all the time, when new
> > language projects are being launched. So what if we
> > require the assistance of a developer? I think that
> > you really are too practical - just for the sake of
> > easiness and practicality, it doesn't matter how wrong
> > something is, or how biased it is, you won't support
> > it  just because it requires more work. I believe that
> > we must first be correct, then practical. Being
> > practical now will just cause more problems later on.
>
> All the time? Do you have any idea how extremely infrequently new
> language subdomains are set up? And for the last 4 or 5 new ones, I
> had to request it personally from a developer, sometimes a few times
> before it actually got done. It would require a new subdomain, yes,
> which would be longer than the existing one and would take developer
> time that is currently being spent on much less frivelous issues. A
> new interface would be needed, yes, but that would happen even without
> a new subdomain. New software? No, mediawiki 1.4 works just fine.
>
> > Finally, I'm not happy with the status quo. I've tried
> > until now numerous ways to negotiate, I started
> > writing on this mailing list, and yet nothing has
> > worked. The status quo has just been maintained, and
> > you haven't considered the point of view than anyone
> > else. Honestly, that's really frustrating. I mean,
> > I've written many messages that just basically say the
> > same thing over and over again -- we've covered no
> > ground here. And you can't say I haven't been
> > reasonable. I've proposed something that doesn't
> > denigrate Moldovan Cyrillic, that is perfectly fair to
> > it, gives it space to grow, but at the same time
> > doesn't put it in favour of Moldovan Latin. Yes, it's
> > practically harder, but I don't see anything
> > theoretically wrong with it. On the practical side, I
> > will go and contact a developer to do it if we reach
> > concensus. That's not that hard a move. Neither is the
> > whole setting up. It's not as if you now have to go
> > and waste a week's work on setting up a new subdomain!
>
> Ahh, but there's where our opinions differ majorly. I see the using of
> a separate -and longer - subdomain for Cyrillic not as making it so it
> the situation is fair and balanced. I see it as making it so that it
> puts Moldovan Latin on a pedestal compared to Cyrillic. So what if
> it's majority and official? That doesn't mean it should get the
> mansion while Cyrillic gets the one-room apartment.
>
> And actually, it would probably take well over a week for me to be
> able to get somebody to set up a new subdomain.
>
> You say you're not happy with the status quo. Not to be disrespectful,
> but why should I care? You have not contributed your time to mo.wiki,
> and you are not Moldovan. You are speaking entirely from a Romanian
> point of view, and I strongly believe that the decisions made at a
> Wikipedia shouldn't be able to be second-guessed by other Wikipedia
> communities.
>
> Why aren't you happy with the status quo? Evaluate this, with your
> Wikipedia usage habits, for whom does it cause a problem? You. Do you
> visit mo.wiki a lot? No. Do you read it or edit it a lot? No. Have you
> contributed a lot to it? No. Do you even consider your mother tongue
> to be Moldovan rather than Romanian? No. So why, then, should we give
> your opinion more than a microscopic weight? You not being happy with
> the status quo doesn't count for a lot if the status quo doesn't
> actually have any impact on your Wikipedia usage.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
It's a good thing you're back, Larry.

I had begun to tire of Phil Sandifer's endless attacks on your
character. I don't believe these will continue in your presence.

Welcome back

Mark

On 19/04/05, lmsanger at sbcglobal.net <lmsanger at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I was looking at wikipedia-l to see how the community might react to my
> memoir.  I haven't been subscribed for three years.  But seeing Jimmy's
> comment impelled me to rejoin the list, for the sole purpose of confirming
> what has been on record for five years.
>
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> > The original idea for a wiki for Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry,
> > but by Jeremy Rosenfeld.
>
> Who is Jeremy Rosenfeld?  I'm afraid I don't remember, but I don't have a
> very good memory for names.  Was he one of the people doing link weeding for
> Bomis?
>
> I remember very clearly the evening when I got the idea for Wikipedia.  It
> was January 2 and Ben Kovitz and I were eating at a Mexican restaurant just
> around the corner from the old Bomis office.  (I could point out the place,
> if it still exists, but I forget the name.)  Ben no doubt remembers it as
> well, because I told him almost immediately after he explained the concept
> of a wiki to me that it would be interesting to consider building a more
> free-wheeling encyclopedia project using a wiki.  I told him that, even as
> we were still eating dinner.  I remember writing a wiki encyclopedia
> proposal soon after I got home, I think that very night; I remember you
> saying that you liked the idea and that you'd set up the wiki.  That would
> have been January 3.  I think you (or maybe it was Jason Richey) actually
> put the wiki online either that day or the next.  I think it was that very
> day, because I remember being happy that the thing had been set up so
> quickly.  Over the next few days I started populating the wiki with the
> basic pages, and pitched the idea to Nupedia.
>
> If Jeremy Rosenfeld told you about wikis, or suggested that wiki software
> could be used to run a wiki encyclopedia, you certainly never told *me*
> that; and in any case, it was not Jeremy Rosenfeld's conversation with you,
> but instead mine, that actually caused the precursor of Wikipedia to come
> into existence on January 3 or 4.  I know how Wikipedia was originated,
> since, well, I did the origination.  Moreover, I came up with the name for
> the project and shepherded it very closely from then through its first year.
>
> Do you deny these claims, Jimmy?
>
> If not, then what you say is simply false, is it not?--That "The original
> idea for a wiki for Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry, but by Jeremy
> Rosenfeld."
>
> I just don't know what you could possibly thinking.  Why don't you clarify
> for the list what you meant, precisely, in light of the facts as I have
> presented them?  Surely you're not accusing *me* of having lied since
> practically the beginning of the project?  Because, as you know, the above
> story has been the official story of the origin of the idea for Wikipedia
> since the beginning of the project.  Why would you take five years to "set
> the record straight" and thereby accuse me of having been a liar all that
> time?
>
> --Larry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Le Tuesday 19 April 2005 20:27, Cormac Lawler a ?crit :
> Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is
> multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever)
> send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or
> Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold.

No problem:

cs: Wikimedia Quarto je ofici?ln? bulletin nadace Wikimedia.

de: Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia Foundation.

en: The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia Foundation.

es: Wikimedia Quarto es el bolet?n oficial de la Fundaci?n Wikimedia.

fr: Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia
Foundation.

it: Wikimedia Quarto ? la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia.

ja: Wikimedia Quarto ?????????????????????2??

pl: Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia.

pt: Wikimedia Quarto ? o boletim oficial da Funda??o Wikimedia.

> Cormac

Regards,
Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Mark Williamson said:
> ???????????????????? Cormac,
>
> The way to do it is, copy the Unicode text, and then place it into
> gmail.
>
> Gmail does after all support utf8 in outgoing messages.
>
> (thus the Gothic text inthe first line of this e-mail)

To me it looks like a pussy cat, a OE digraph, repeated four times, first
with a dot, then with a bubble, then with a little jumping baby "1", then
with a pair of twin baby ">"s.  Then there's a delta and a fancy f.


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Help - download wikipedia database

body:
To answer one question out of several:

On 4/19/05, Hemali Majithia <majithia at streamsage.com> wrote:
> Is there any other ultility to convert the sql dumps to html apart from
> wiki2static.pl script?

There are a couple of other tools like this listed among
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Alternate_parsers
I have no idea though which are good, which are "actively supported",
or even which work.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Kevin Rector said:
>
> My position (and again, so that you can cool your jets -- it has
> nothing to do with porn) is that we should be very hesitant to link to
> pay sites in articles where the purpose of the site is to be a pay
> site.

I agree with this.  In practise so-called "pay sites" tend to have a lot
of freebies--especially porn-based sites.  This may sometimes make them
worth linking to.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
> >I had begun to tire of Phil Sandifer's endless attacks on your
> >character. I don't believe these will continue in your presence.
> >
> >
> I see no reason for them not to.

I do. He's made his point. He doesn't like Larry. Good for him.

> It's quite clear that Larry Sanger has not put in a minute on Wikipedia for which he was not paid.

I'll leave that for Larry to respond to.

> He resigned and ended all involvement with the project immediately after he stopped receiving a paycheck for it,

Again, Larry can respond to that.

> and his contact with the project since then has primarily taken the form of either attacking it or claiming credit for various parts of it (while still not actually being involved in it).

Perhaps you didn't see Jimbo's message. The things Larry says
critically about Wikipedia aren't "attacks". They aren't intended
maliciously.

The whole Wikipedia-l Attack Squad just loves to portray people in
such caricatural ways - I remember when I was portrayed over and over
as a snot-nosed little kid who liked to spam people and scream and
shout and attack people personally.

You guys make Larry into a greedy, despicable man who has hated
Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
since then has done everything in his power to bring about its
destruction. According to you guys, he also walks around telling
people how he started Wikipedia, and cackling maniacally at the end of
every other sentence.

This has got to stop.

(the other) Mark

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Chad Perrin a ?crit:
 > On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 07:50:03PM +0200, Anthere wrote:

Thanks for the explanation...

 >>If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be
 >>helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more
people.
 >
 >
 > A snide response to that might be to compare your request to that of
 > others regarding a preference for text emails over HTML emails.

And a comment could be that people are not forced to register to that
list, and could very well get informed by other means than this list,
hence little loss if they decide not to subscribe.

However, if I want to understand you, I have no other choice than
reading your very long and very circonvoluted mails. And I believe that
this is the first time I mention your mails are problematic to me. And I
tried to say it politely Chad. I am not word playing here unfortunately.


from_name: jfdwolff at doctors.org.uk

body:
Rick wrote:
> > Avoiding these images, or having a Preferences key
> > to prevent their display, is NOT censorship. It is
> > part of achieving the goal of Wikipedia, as I have
> > argued above. It is also not a violation of NPOV, as
> > an image is not a POV. It is being plain sensible,
> > sensitive and broad-minded.
>
> I love how those who are trying to censor Wikipeida
> are calling THEMSELVES broad-minded.

No. Censorship is imposed from the outside. You may wish to call it self-censorship. Indeed I believe it is broad-minded to be considerate of those who are looking for high-quality information yet do not want to be confronted with nudity. I find links to porn sites, especially with a clear disclaimer, much less troublesome than images that pop up without warning.

I am pleased Catholic Arkady does not object. That does not actually demolish my argument at all. It just influences the numbers by 1 :-) But seriously, the South American issue has already been mentioned.

JFW

____________________________________________________________

This e-mail has been scanned by the StreamShield Protector antivirus system.

Free education for all doctors.
The simple, fast way to prove you are keeping up to date.
http://www.doctors.net.uk/freelearning
____________________________________________________________


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Bizarre. I tried exactly as Mark and others had told me in Yahoo and
it didn't work - but now it works in Gmail, as the below text shows.
But when I was testing the html versions, Gmail didn't display the
text properly, whereas Yahoo did. And copying unicode text still
doesn't work in Dreamweaver (it does in Word and Text Edit but I can't
get them to then display a working html file).

Question - will this now work in every Mail client, regardless of
their set up preferences? And does this satisfy your practical problem
Anthere? (We'll hopefully deal with the aesthetics in due course.)

And once again, nobody's forcing anyone to accept this mail -
hopefully we can provide a choice that suits all. And there are no
images in the html version (although I originally wanted to include
the wikimedia logo, but decided it was too much hassle).

Thanks
Cormac

Cs

Wikimedia Quarto je ofici?ln? bulletin nadace Wikimedia. Wikimedia
Quarto ?. 2 Edice Leden 2005 vy?lo 15. b?ezna. Nyn? je dostupn? v
mnoha jazyc?ch.

Mimo jin? obsahuje: pozdravy od dozor?? rady, Jimba a Anthere;
rozhovor s Lawrencem Lessigem; ?tvrtletn? zpr?vy nadace z lo?sk?ho
podzimu; r?zn? aktivity projekt? Wikimedie.

M??ete se zapsat zde a nechat si poslat e-mailovou nebo ti?t?nou verzi
bulletinu.

Pokud se zaj?m?te o publikov?n? tohoto bulletinu, pros?m p?ihlaste se
do mailing listu quarto-l.

Wikimedia Quarto nyn? p?ij?m? texty pro ??slo 3, kter? vyjde v dubnu.
Dal?? informace najdete na m:Talk:WQ/3.

Va?e ohlasy pros?m sm??ujte na m:Talk:WQ.

[edit]

De

Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia
Foundation. Wikimedia Quarto vol. 2 (Edition vom Januar 2005) wurde am
15. M?rz ver?ffentlicht. Er ist in vielen verschiedenen Sprachen
erh?ltlich.

Inhalt: Gr??e des Board of Trustees, Jimbo und Anthere; ein Interview
mit Lawrence Lessig; Quartalsbericht der Foundation aus dem letzten
Herbst; diverse Aktivit?ten der Wikimedia Projekte.

Du kannst dich hier eintragen um eine e-Mail oder Druck-Version des
Newsletters zu bekommen.

Wenn du daran interssiert bist, den Newsletter zu ver?ffentlichen,
trag dich bitte hier ein: quarto-l mailinglist.

Jetzt wird gerade eine ein Entwurf f?r den Wikimedia Quarto volume 3
erstellt, der im April erscheinen soll. Siehe m:Talk:WQ/3 f?r weitere
Informationen.

Bitte teil uns dein Feedback auf m:Talk:WQ mit.

[edit]

En

The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia
Foundation. Wikimedia Quarto vol.2 (January 2005) is currently
available in 5 languages.

Content includes: greetings from the Board of Trustees; greetings from
Jimbo and Anthere; an interview with Lawrence Lessig; the quarterly
report of Foundation for the third tremester of 2004(from Oct. till
Dec.); and reports on the diverse activities of the Wikimedia
projects.

You can sign up for an email and/ or a print version of the newsletter.

If you are interested in the process of producing the newsletter,
please subscribe to the quarto-l mailinglist.

Right now, Wikimedia Quarto is calling for submissions to volume 3, to
be released in April, 2005. Please see m:Talk:WQ/3 for further
information.

Post feedback on Wikimedia Quarto, vol. 2, to m:Talk:WQ.

[edit]

Es

Wikimedia Quarto es el bolet?n oficial de la Fundaci?n Wikimedia.
Wikimedia Quarto vol.2 Edici?n de enero de 2005 fue publicado el 15 de
marzo. Est? actualmente disponible en varios idiomas.

Su contenido incluye: Saludos de la Junta de Administraci?n, Jimbo y
Anthere; entrevista con Lawrence Lessig; Reporte trimestral de la
Fundaci?n del pasado trimestre; actividades diversas de los proyectos
Wikimedia.

Puede anotarse para recibir la versi?n por correo o impresa del bolet?n.

Si est? interesado la publicaci?n del bolet?n, por favor suscr?base a
lista de correos quarto-l.

Actualmente est? abierta la recepci?n de colaboraciones para el
volumen 3, para ser publicado en abril. V?ase WQ/3 para mayor
informaci?n.

Por favor escriba sus comentarios en m:Talk:WQ.

[edit]

Fr

Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia
Foundation. Le num?ro 2 (janvier 2005) est disponible en 5 langues.

Aper?u du contenu : messages de bienvenue du Conseil d'administration
; messages de Jimbo et Anthere ; interview avec Lawrence Lessig ;
rapport de la Foundation pour le troisi?me trimestre 2004 (octobre ?
d?cembre) ; rapports sur les diverses activit?s des projets Wikimedia.

Vous pouvez vous inscrire pour une version mail et / ou papier de la
lettre d'information.

Si vous souhaitez prendre part ? l'?laboration de cette lettre, merci
de vous abonner ? la liste de diffusion quarto-l.

Wikimedia Quarto lance un appel ? soumissions pour le num?ro 3, pr?vu
pour avril 2005. Merci d'aller voir m:Talk:WQ/3 pour plus
d'informations.

Les avis et commentaires sur Wikimedia Quarto num?ro 2 sont les
bienvenus sur m:Talk:WQ.

[edit]

It

Wikimedia Quarto ? la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia.
Wikimedia Quarto vol.2 Edition of January 2005 ? al momento ?
disponibile in 5 lingue.

Il suo contenuto include: saluti dal Consiglio di Amministrazione,
saluti da Jimbo e Anthere; un'intervista con Lawrence Lessig; il
rapporto trimestrale della Fondazione per il terzo trimestre del 2004
(da Ottobre a Dicembre); e rapporti sulle svariate attivit? dei
progetti Wikimedia

Puoi iscriverti per ricevere una email e/o la versione per stampante
della newsletter

Se sei interessato a a partecipare alla newsletter, iscriviti a
quarto-l mailinglist.

Adesso Wikimedia Quarto ? disponibile per la ricezione di aiuti per il
volume 3, che verr? rilasciato in Aprile 2005. Per maggiori
informazioni d? un'occhiata a m:Talk:WQ/3.

Invia qualsiasi commento a m:Talk:WQ.

[edit]

Ja

Wikimedia Quarto
?????????????????????2??2005?1???3?15???????????5??????????????????3??????????????????????????

?2???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????????Quarto ???????????????????

????3??4???????????????????????????????????

?2?????????????????m:Talk:WQ?????????

[edit]

Pl

Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia. Wikimedia
Quarto 2 ze stycznia 2005 jest obecnie dost?pne w 5 j?zykach.

W numerze: pozdrowienia od Rady Powierniczej, pozdrowienia od Jimbo i
Anthere, wywiad z Lawrencem Lessigiem, raport kwartalny Fundacji na
trzeci kwarta? 2004 (od pa?dziernika do grudnia) oraz raporty o
rozmaitych dzia?aniach projekt?w Wikimedi?w.

Mo?na si? zapisa? na odbi?r biuletynu przez poczt? elektroniczn? i/lub
drukowanej wersji biuletynu.

Zainteresowanych pomoc? przy tworzeniu biuletynu prosimy o zapisanie
si? na list? dyskusyjn? quarto-l.

Obecnie Wikimedia Quarto wzywa do zg?osze? materia??w do wydania 3,
planowanego na kwiecie? 2005. Wi?cej informacji na ten temat znajduje
si? po adresem m:Talk:WQ/3.

Zapraszamy do wyra?ania opinii na temat Wikimedia Quarto 2 pod adresem
m:Talk:WQ.

[edit]

Pt

Wikimedia Quarto ? o boletim oficial da Funda??o Wikimedia. Wikimedia
Quarto vol.2 (Edi??o de janeiro de 2005) est? atualmente dispon?vel em
5 idiomas.

Seu conte?do inclui: sauda??es do Conselho Diretivo, de Jimbo e de
Anthere; uma entrevista com Lawrence Lessig; o relat?rio trimestral da
Funda??o para o terceiro trimestre de 2004 (de outubro a dezembro); e
relat?rios sobre diversas atividades de projetos da Wikimedia.

Voc? pode inscrever-se para receber uma vers?o para e-mail e/ou
impressa do boletim.

Se estiver interessado no processo de confec??o do boletim, increva-se
na lista de e-mail quarto-l.

Atualmente, a Wikimedia Quarto est? aceitando colabora??es para o
volume 3, a ser publicado em abril de 2005. Por favor, veja
m:Talk:WQ/3 para mais informa??es.

Envie seus coment?rios sobre Wikimedia Quarto vol. 2 a m:Talk:WQ.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Kevin Rector said:
>
> Yes, I do believe that if a non-nude can illustrate an article as well
> as a nude can then the non-nude should be used.

Why in this case, though?  The whole point was that she posed nude wearing
the Heart of the Ocean for Jack, and the treasure hunters looking for the
diamond found the picture.  That is the McGuffin that holds the whole
story together.  You get that contrast, the many contrasts in that movie.
Great opulence above decks, poverty below.  A naked young girl full of the
promise of life, an ancient old woman at the end of it.  Also it's a very
pretty picture.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Cormac Lawler a ?crit:
> On 4/19/05, Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> wrote:
>
>>Le Tuesday 19 April 2005 20:27, Cormac Lawler a ?crit :
>>
>>>Ok, the main point of the proposed html mail is that it is
>>>multilingual. If you can convince me that a mail I (or whoever)
>>>send(s) will display in the appropriate language for a Japanese or
>>>Czech or Spanish viewer, I am almost sold.
>>
>>No problem:
>>
>>cs: Wikimedia Quarto je ofici?ln? bulletin nadace Wikimedia.
>>
>>de: Wikimedia Quarto ist der offizielle Newsletter der Wikimedia Foundation.
>>
>>en: The Wikimedia Quarto is the official newsletter of Wikimedia Foundation.
>>
>>es: Wikimedia Quarto es el bolet?n oficial de la Fundaci?n Wikimedia.
>>
>>fr: Wikimedia Quarto est la lettre d'informations officielle de Wikimedia
>>Foundation.
>>
>>it: Wikimedia Quarto ? la newsletter ufficiale della fondazione Wikimedia.
>>
>>ja: Wikimedia Quarto ?????????????????????2??
>>
>>pl: Wikimedia Quarto to oficjalny biuletyn Fundacji Wikimedia.
>>
>>pt: Wikimedia Quarto ? o boletim oficial da Funda??o Wikimedia.
>>
>>
>>>Cormac
>>
>>Regards,
>>Yann
>>--
>>http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
>>http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
>>http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
>>http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
>>
>
>
> Thanks very much Yann and Mark - how exactly did you do this? I had
> more or less understood Chad originally, but when i tried doing as i
> said above, it didn't work in either of my mail clients, yahoo and
> gmail. Also, I still want to know why Anthere said this was a bad
> solution - I didn't really understand either.
> Cormac

Possibly I understood nothing of what was proposed...

Here is what I understood.

I understood the message would be displayed in my email only in the
language of my browser. Which would basically mean for me to display to
me the explanation and announcement in french only, and only the link to
the french quarto.

If this is so, sorry, but I do not support this at all.

I do not see why I would get only the link in french, when I would also
been interested in the link in english.
When I use my husband computer, the browser is in english, when would I
not get the french link ?
If I am in visit in Finland and I connect from an internet cafe, what is
my interest in getting it in finnish ?
And what happens for all browsers where the language is set in a
language not covered by Quarto.

This is what I understood was suggested.

If I was wrong, I apology for not understanding


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Gregory Maxwell a ?crit:
> On 4/19/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Gregory Maxwell a ?crit:
>>
>>>HTML mails would make me unsub, perhaps that wouldn't be universally bad. :)
>>
>>I did not understand what unsub means.
>
>
> Unsubscribe. I would turn off my list membership. I do not wish to
> received HTML mail, .. Most html mail is spam, and most html mail is
> dropped by my aggressive spamfilters. If this list went HTML, I wold
> miss many messages, so I might as well unsubscribe.

But WHO ever said this list will ever go html ????

> I would probably not be alone.
>
>
>>>As far as links go, your MUA should see them and make them clickable
>>>even without html mail, I'm sure someone here can make some
>>>recommendations for your platform...
>>
>>I have no idea what MUA means.
>
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUA

I use the word client mail.

>>>Hmm.. Inline images might have been useful in our discussions about
>>>sexual images on wikipedia, I suppose... :)
>>
>>I can't figure what you mean.
>
>
> HTML allows you to put pictures inside emails, not just links.  It can
> be abused to show you images that you don't like.   I would have found
> it amusing to abuse that feature when we were discussing blocking
> images, although I would not have actually done it.  Other people
> might, and it is a reason you should not want html mail.

The argument is frankly very poor.
No one will be able to post porn image from this list, since at least
for now, only SJ and I are allowed to send messages with it.
I do not intend to post porn. The fact other people might do is not a
valid argument.

>>If I may dare say... this mailing list is international. It would be
>>helpful if people made an effort so as to be understandable to more people.
>>
>>It is a general comment, not limited to you only. Maybe I am a bit
>>stupid these days.
>
>
> I find this amusing:  I used "MUA" in an effort to be clear since I
> knew the acronym was the same in all languages.

MUA is not frankly a word much used by most people :-)

> HTML email can exclude people in much the same way that using obscure
> English words can confuse non-native readers, except it is far easier
> and less harmful to avoid HTML than it is to avoid English that is
> difficult for nonnative readers of english.

Right.

May I ask you a question ?

Have you ever read Quarto ?

Another question ?

Do you like beauty ?


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Sanger's memoirs

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:
> He started it as a test, and it snowballed out of control. Nobody
> could predict its popularity.  Larry to me seems like a hesitant
> Martin Luther who says "wait, I didn't want to start a new church,
> only reform the old one!"  But nobody wants to wait.

The original idea for a wiki for Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry,
but by Jeremy Rosenfeld.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
Gregory Maxwell a e'crit:

> Since the list is primarily in english, and a great many languages can
> be mostly expressed with plain ascii,  the existence of a wealth of
> software that supports UTF8 should be sufficient.

This list will absolutely NOT be primarily in english. Quite the
opposite. It will be primarily in all languages covered by Quarto.

Ant


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: html emails

body:
I do that from time to time Mark, but then basically no one understand
me and some even complain...

Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> Anthere, I propose that those of us who can write messages bilingually
> if time allows.
> Anthere?????????????????????????????????????????????
> Mark


from_name: Rebecca

body:
No objections here (as long as the block of color appears by default).
I'd have suggested such a thing earlier, except that I wasn't sure if
it would be technically possible.

-- ambi

On 4/19/05, Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 06:34:47PM +0100, Tony Sidaway wrote:
> > Chad Perrin said:
> > >
> > > Just a thought:  How about using CSS to show a block of color of the
> > > size and dimensions of an image that might be deemed "inappropriate" by
> > > popular standards of prudishness, with the ability to replace/cover
> > > that block with the image itself by clicking on it?
> >
> > Yes, this is very much along the lines I've been thinking. Give em their
> > figleaf.  Figleafing should be configurable (on or off by default) and the
> > user should be able to set his preferences by cookie, without logging in.
>
> Exactly.  We seem to be on the same wavelength.
>
> This thought has actually been forming in the back of my brain over the
> course of the last three to five days without making itself consciously
> available to me.  Only today did it arise as a fully-formed thought
> complete with the notion that, as a CSS solution, should admit a trivial
> implementation.
>
> I'm convinced that to be properly implemented, however, it must be
> cookie-configurable by viewers not logged in from day one.  Implementing
> such that we overshoot our goals of accomodating users in the direction
> of a pablumpedia would be a Bad Idea.  Write the cookie code first, THEN
> write the CSS.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin
> [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Oh no, not again...

body:
Kevin Rector said:
> Old picture = low image quality
>
> New picture = higher image quality

I think those are the only standards that are valid.  People complaining,
except on encyclopedic grounds, means absolutely nothing.
The new picture is higher in quality than the old one, but the old one
shows more of the scene.  Both have their uses on Wikipedia.


from_name: Delirium

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> I don't think any reasonable person would object to calling Larry a
> "co-founder of Wikipedia". To call one troll on a blog comment a
> "debate" is to blow things extraordinarily out of proportion.

Since Jimbo has explicitly objected to calling Larry a "co-founder of
Wikipedia" several times, including in replies to one of Larry's
Kuro5hin articles, I'm not sure how it's just "one troll".  According to
Jimbo, Larry neither co-founded Wikipedia nor proposed the idea of a
wiki-based encyclopedia, but was merely an employee tasked with starting
it up.

-Mark


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Fwd: Block

body:
Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se) [050419 21:33]:
> Rob (Gamaliel) wrote:

> > [...] has made some valid points, but they are lost amid a
> > torrent of claims of libel, legal threats, and general rudeness.
> > Earlier today he removed a large amount of material from [...]

> I've seen this kind of intriguingly rude behaviour on several
> wikis, but not at all in another project of mine, where e-mail is
> the primary form of communication.  Maybe the offender thinks he
> is talking to a machine, just like he would kick a soda vending
> machine or hit a television set that loses sync.  Could we make
> wikis look more like a community of real people?  How?

I suspect this is the sort of person who thinks it's all ones and zeroes
and if it's on the Internet it doesn't count as interaction with real
people.

- d.


from_name: Finne Boonen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] pdf horrors

body:
I'm going to temprorarily hijack this thread :)

Please think twice before making pdf's. pdf's are worse then html.
Screenreaders cannot always handle pdf's since not all pdfs that
contain text contain text, often they just contain images of the text.
People with various reading problems (from simply needing reading
glasses, to dyslexia) have no way to adapt a pdf to what they can
read.

Thanks, I'll now step off my soapbox and let the debate rage on about
the quarto mail.

Finne
--
"Maybe you knew early on that your track went from point A to B, but
unlike you I wasn't given a map at birth!" Alyssa, "Chasing Amy"
http://hekla.rave.org/cookbook.html - my crossplatform dieet/recipe app


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: prudishness and censorship

body:
Tony wrote:
>Could we drop this really very silly fig-leaf?  What we do on
>Wikipedia is censorhip--it's unavoidable, part and parcel of what we
>do in producing an encyclopedia.  When we decide what should and
>should not belong to Wikipedia, we're censoring Wikipedia.  It's
>censorship, and there's no big deal about it.  Why this huge, tiresome
>monstrous effort to find another name for it?

I think you're devaluating the term "censorship". You have not responded to my observation that internal control of content is not strictly "censorship", and this is definitely not a figleaf (or a coloured block, for that matter :-).

We actually control content all the time, through the means of VfD. Apart from hard-boiled trolls, nobody has ever applied the term of "censorship" to the VfD process.

To reiterate my view: Wikipedia aims to produce an encyclopedia for the widest possible readership. This readership is reduced if it attains a reputation for containing inappropriate images. My employer's web access blocking tool already blocks out Wikipedia.

JFW

____________________________________________________________

This e-mail has been scanned by the StreamShield Protector antivirus system.

Free education for all doctors.
The simple, fast way to prove you are keeping up to date.
http://www.doctors.net.uk/freelearning
____________________________________________________________


subject: [WikiEN-l] Links to porn sites

body:
Daniel Mayer said:
> --- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport at bluebottle.com> wrote:
>> Kevin Rector said:
>> >
>> > Yes, I do believe that if a non-nude can illustrate an article as
>> > well as a nude can then the non-nude should be used.
>>
>> Why in this case, though?  The whole point was that she posed nude
>> wearing the Heart of the Ocean for Jack, and the treasure hunters
>> looking for the diamond found the picture.  That is the McGuffin that
>> holds the whole story together.
>
> A still of of the drawing, not of the actual nude actress, would be
> more appropriate then.

This is an article about a movie, not a drawing (Mr Cameron, who drew it,
is a far better director and cinematographer than he is a draftsman).


body:
>
> No. Censorship is imposed from the outside.

Could we drop this really very silly fig-leaf?  What we do on Wikipedia is
censorhip--it's unavoidable, part and parcel of what we do in producing an
encyclopedia.  When we decide what should and should not belong to
Wikipedia, we're censoring Wikipedia.  It's censorship, and there's no big
deal about it.  Why this huge, tiresome monstrous effort to find another
name for it?


body:
On 4/19/05, David Iberri <diberri at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/19/05, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Alternate_parsers
>
> The correct URL is http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Alternative_parsers
>
> Alternate != Alternative ;-)

D'oh! I take it I got it right when I created the page in the first
place though? ;)

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: pdf horrors

body:
Finne Boonen a ?crit:
> I'm going to temprorarily hijack this thread :)
>
> Please think twice before making pdf's. pdf's are worse then html.
> Screenreaders cannot always handle pdf's since not all pdfs that
> contain text contain text, often they just contain images of the text.
> People with various reading problems (from simply needing reading
> glasses, to dyslexia) have no way to adapt a pdf to what they can
> read.
>
> Thanks, I'll now step off my soapbox and let the debate rage on about
> the quarto mail.
>
> Finne

Sigh...

If you were all so motivated to just get involved in WRITING IN the
Quarto... :-)

/me returns trying to write the board report...


from_name: lmsanger at sbcglobal.net

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
I was looking at wikipedia-l to see how the community might react to my
memoir.  I haven't been subscribed for three years.  But seeing Jimmy's
comment impelled me to rejoin the list, for the sole purpose of confirming
what has been on record for five years.

Jimmy wrote:

> The original idea for a wiki for Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry,
> but by Jeremy Rosenfeld.

Who is Jeremy Rosenfeld?  I'm afraid I don't remember, but I don't have a
very good memory for names.  Was he one of the people doing link weeding for
Bomis?

I remember very clearly the evening when I got the idea for Wikipedia.  It
was January 2 and Ben Kovitz and I were eating at a Mexican restaurant just
around the corner from the old Bomis office.  (I could point out the place,
if it still exists, but I forget the name.)  Ben no doubt remembers it as
well, because I told him almost immediately after he explained the concept
of a wiki to me that it would be interesting to consider building a more
free-wheeling encyclopedia project using a wiki.  I told him that, even as
we were still eating dinner.  I remember writing a wiki encyclopedia
proposal soon after I got home, I think that very night; I remember you
saying that you liked the idea and that you'd set up the wiki.  That would
have been January 3.  I think you (or maybe it was Jason Richey) actually
put the wiki online either that day or the next.  I think it was that very
day, because I remember being happy that the thing had been set up so
quickly.  Over the next few days I started populating the wiki with the
basic pages, and pitched the idea to Nupedia.

If Jeremy Rosenfeld told you about wikis, or suggested that wiki software
could be used to run a wiki encyclopedia, you certainly never told *me*
that; and in any case, it was not Jeremy Rosenfeld's conversation with you,
but instead mine, that actually caused the precursor of Wikipedia to come
into existence on January 3 or 4.  I know how Wikipedia was originated,
since, well, I did the origination.  Moreover, I came up with the name for
the project and shepherded it very closely from then through its first year.

Do you deny these claims, Jimmy?

If not, then what you say is simply false, is it not?--That "The original
idea for a wiki for Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry, but by Jeremy
Rosenfeld."

I just don't know what you could possibly thinking.  Why don't you clarify
for the list what you meant, precisely, in light of the facts as I have
presented them?  Surely you're not accusing *me* of having lied since
practically the beginning of the project?  Because, as you know, the above
story has been the official story of the origin of the idea for Wikipedia
since the beginning of the project.  Why would you take five years to "set
the record straight" and thereby accuse me of having been a liar all that
time?

--Larry


body:
Larry Sanger has again written at length about the history of Wikipedia
in two articles posted on Slashdot.

Part I : http://features.slashdot.org/features/05/04/18/164213.shtml?tid=95

Part II :
http://features.slashdot.org/features/05/04/19/1746205.shtml?tid=95&tid=149&tid=9

Some blogworld commentary is at
http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2005/04/18/sanger_on_wikipedia.php

- including a follow-up by Sanger, giving his take on the "was he or
wasn't he the co-founder" debate, in particular

"I was virtually always referred to as a co-founder until last year.
What has changed?

Wikipedia was my idea (in the very robust sense explained in my memoir),
its main founding principles were in large part mine and enforced by me,
and I did more than anyone to organize it. It simply would not have
existed if I had started it, indeed while being employed by Jimmy. It
was on that basis that I was for several years credibly and repeatedly
called "co-founder" of the project.

The fact that I was Jimmy's employee, which I freely admit, does not
mean I was not also a co-founder of the project.

Until last year, again, this was my honorific, and until this year,
nobody has bothered questioning it. I wonder why."

Pete


from_name: Dori

body:
On 4/19/05, Uwe Baumbach <U.Baumbach at web.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> we plan to upgrade our wiki from 1.3.0Beta1 to 1.4.1.
>
> After that we want to open two other instances with different language
> support but the "same" content area.
>
> Please help with (links to) comments, suggests, possible problems,
> documentation or help for this situation.
> Especially I am interested in issues concerning configuration, upload and
> use of common data (images!) in the different instances without (?)
> redundancy.
>
> Being a beginner I am searching for general information about that.
> Thanks for your patience.
>

Just let the users change the interface in Preferences to whatever language
they want


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
I don't know why Jimbo would do that, Larry. But I do know that Jimbo
has been putting a tremendous amount of work into this community and
this project. I know that h e's been active from a level ranging from
the broad fundraising level to an astonishing level of specificity as
he deals with individual problems. I know he's been fast to respond to
queries, reasonable, judicious, and nothing but respectful.

I also know that the only time I see your name of late is attached to
another screed about why the project you abandoned is doomed.
Curiously, it seems to keep climbing in the Alexa rankings while you
claim that. Equally curiously, it took you a few years yourself to
change from leaving because you weren't getting paid anymore to leaving
because of a poisonous social atmosphere.

My point here being that, all things being equal, when it comes to
Jimbo's word against yours, I'm going to go with Jimbo. And when it
comes to taking seriously critiques of the project, I'm going to go
with people who are involved in it, instead of capitalizing on their
past involvement to hit the frontpage of the geek news sites.

Now go take your drama queening somewhere else. We're busy with this
project. You may remember it. It's called Wikipedia.

-Snowspinner

On Apr 19, 2005, at 10:10 PM, <lmsanger at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I was looking at wikipedia-l to see how the community might react to my
> memoir.  I haven't been subscribed for three years.  But seeing Jimmy's
> comment impelled me to rejoin the list, for the sole purpose of
> confirming
> what has been on record for five years.
>
> Jimmy wrote:
>
>> The original idea for a wiki for Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry,
>> but by Jeremy Rosenfeld.
>
> Who is Jeremy Rosenfeld?  I'm afraid I don't remember, but I don't
> have a
> very good memory for names.  Was he one of the people doing link
> weeding for
> Bomis?
>
> I remember very clearly the evening when I got the idea for Wikipedia.
>  It
> was January 2 and Ben Kovitz and I were eating at a Mexican restaurant
> just
> around the corner from the old Bomis office.  (I could point out the
> place,
> if it still exists, but I forget the name.)  Ben no doubt remembers it
> as
> well, because I told him almost immediately after he explained the
> concept
> of a wiki to me that it would be interesting to consider building a
> more
> free-wheeling encyclopedia project using a wiki.  I told him that,
> even as
> we were still eating dinner.  I remember writing a wiki encyclopedia
> proposal soon after I got home, I think that very night; I remember you
> saying that you liked the idea and that you'd set up the wiki.  That
> would
> have been January 3.  I think you (or maybe it was Jason Richey)
> actually
> put the wiki online either that day or the next.  I think it was that
> very
> day, because I remember being happy that the thing had been set up so
> quickly.  Over the next few days I started populating the wiki with the
> basic pages, and pitched the idea to Nupedia.
>
> If Jeremy Rosenfeld told you about wikis, or suggested that wiki
> software
> could be used to run a wiki encyclopedia, you certainly never told *me*
> that; and in any case, it was not Jeremy Rosenfeld's conversation with
> you,
> but instead mine, that actually caused the precursor of Wikipedia to
> come
> into existence on January 3 or 4.  I know how Wikipedia was originated,
> since, well, I did the origination.  Moreover, I came up with the name
> for
> the project and shepherded it very closely from then through its first
> year.
>
> Do you deny these claims, Jimmy?
>
> If not, then what you say is simply false, is it not?--That "The
> original
> idea for a wiki for Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry, but by Jeremy
> Rosenfeld."
>
> I just don't know what you could possibly thinking.  Why don't you
> clarify
> for the list what you meant, precisely, in light of the facts as I have
> presented them?  Surely you're not accusing *me* of having lied since
> practically the beginning of the project?  Because, as you know, the
> above
> story has been the official story of the origin of the idea for
> Wikipedia
> since the beginning of the project.  Why would you take five years to
> "set
> the record straight" and thereby accuse me of having been a liar all
> that
> time?
>
> --Larry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>It's a good thing you're back, Larry.
>
>I had begun to tire of Phil Sandifer's endless attacks on your
>character. I don't believe these will continue in your presence.
>
>
I see no reason for them not to.  It's quite clear that Larry Sanger has
not put in a minute on Wikipedia for which he was not paid.  He resigned
and ended all involvement with the project immediately after he stopped
receiving a paycheck for it, and his contact with the project since then
has primarily taken the form of either attacking it or claiming credit
for various parts of it (while still not actually being involved in it).

-Mark


from_name: Alex Regh

subject: [WikiEN-l] Opus Dei - have we become their publishing house?

body:
Hello!

Today I wanted to read [[Opus Dei]] - and frankly, I didn't exactly like what
I saw. The article reads like it was written by the Opus Dei. Checking the
history, I found that mainly two IPs have been editing the article a *few*
times, spamming it with Opus Dei POV, and completely drowning the remaining
bits of criticism. .

Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Opus_Dei&oldid=10888580 to
the current version.

Now, I put a Totally Disputed tag into it, but I don't really feel like doing
a rollback, because I have to would roll back more than 600 (!) edits. (For
the same reason I can't give you a diff - max shown are 500.)

Given that people still hit us with that one "checking" of WP where we didn't
call the disputed birth date of somebody I never heard of "disputed" [1],
well, if those people find that article, we will never hear the end of it -
besides the minor problem of the article not exactly being up to WP standards,
like NPOV. Something should be done, but as I said, I don't really feel I
should do a rollback on my own.

Alex

[1]
http://www.webpronews.com/news/ebusinessnews/wpn-45-20050419MicrosoftEncartaConcernedAboutWikipedia.html
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
        --- Jim Steinman ---

Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Perhaps you didn't see Jimbo's message. The things Larry says
>critically about Wikipedia aren't "attacks". They aren't intended
>maliciously.
>
>
If he really intends his suggestions as constructive suggestions, rather
than self-aggrandizement and media-whoring, why hasn't he participated
in the many discussions of Wikipedia policy?  There were in fact
discussions of how to integrate review systems into Wikipedia which he
did not participate in.  The only comments I've heard from him are
John-Katz-style essays published on other sites.

Perhaps his time is too valuable to bother actually participating in the
project, in which case he's welcome to do something else.  But if he's
serious about improving the project, his views are likely to be better
received if he actually participates in the policy discussions, and
ideally actually edits the encyclopedia and generally participates as an
active member of the project.

If, on the other hand, he's not going to be a member of the project, but
wants to tell those who are how they should run it, well then he
shouldn't be surprised if the reception is less than welcoming.

-Mark


from_name: Alphax

subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Cormac Lawler wrote:

> [snip]
>
>Finally, the PDF solution would be elegant, and could be used for the
>print version. One problem is that apparently we can't host that
>version on meta (as it's a proprietary format) and also, we would have
>to wait until the various versions are fully translated before we did
>this. But more fundamentally, we'd need someone to do it.
>
>
PDF is proprietary? But Free PDF readers and writers exist.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject: [Wikipedia-l] pdf horrors

body:
Hi!

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:47:16 +0200, Finne Boonen wrote:

>Screenreaders cannot always handle pdf's since not all pdfs that
>contain text contain text, often they just contain images of the text.

Well, I should think that something that in this case is made from text would
be turned into a PDF consisting of text.

Alex
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
        --- Jim Steinman ---

Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote:

>Alphax said:
>
>
>>Cormac Lawler wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>Finally, the PDF solution would be elegant, and could be used for the
>>>print version. One problem is that apparently we can't host that
>>>version on meta (as it's a proprietary format) and also, we would have
>>>to wait until the various versions are fully translated before we did
>>>this. But more fundamentally, we'd need someone to do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>PDF is proprietary? But Free PDF readers and writers exist.
>>
>>
>
>PDF is an open format.  Anybody can implement a writer or reader because
>the document standard is published. It is only proprietary in the sense
>that the Java language is proprietary.  I believe there are some html-pdf
>document translators available.  It isn't difficult.
>
>
So Adobe "owns" PDF in the same sense that Sun "owns" Java.

I've been meaning to get into the TeX thing for a while now... can DVIs
be HTMLified? Can TeX have links in it?

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


from_name: Graham Neubig

subject: [Wikitech-l] Remove Wikicode

body:
Hello,

I'm planning on using the text of Wikipedia for research purposes but
I would like to remove the Wikicode, leaving only plain text. Does
anyone know of scripts or programs that do this automatically?

Thanks in Advance!


from_name: James D. Forrester

body:
On Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:04 PM, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 4/19/05, David Iberri <diberri at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 4/19/05, Rowan Collins <rowan.collins at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Alternate_parsers
> >
> > The correct URL is
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Alternative_parsers
> >
> > Alternate != Alternative ;-)
>
> D'oh! I take it I got it right when I created the page in the first
> place though? ;)

Actually, I quite fancy seeing an "alternate parser", which would presumably
be something that parses every other piece of syntax. :-)

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] HTML tidy internal library

body:
For some while we've been using HTML Tidy to do additional correction
and clean-up on output. Normally this is relatively quick compared to
the other database overhead on page edits, though the time can get
relatively large for huge-o pages.

More seriously, forking and spawning an external tidy program can be a
bigger problem when the system's under heavy load.

I've checked into CVS HEAD the ability to use the PECL extension which
exposes an interface to the tidy library in-process. This speeds things
up a bit:

Short page ([[Stuff]], about 2.5k of HTML):
     0.010ms no-op
     2.891ms internalTidy
     8.710ms externalTidy

Long page (a village pump page, 450k+ of HTML):
     1.783ms no-op
   266.066ms internalTidy
   306.098ms externalTidy

Testing on a heavily loaded system the difference can go waaay up!

10 simultaneous tidy test threads:
Short page:
     0.010ms no-op
     2.736ms internalTidy
   213.108ms externalTidy

Long page:
     2.343ms no-op
   565.822ms internalTidy
  5868.871ms externalTidy

Heavy disk seeking (make clean on a GCC build) + 10 simultaneous tidy
test threads;
Short page:
     0.010ms no-op
     2.637ms internalTidy
   928.098ms externalTidy

Long:
     2.353ms no-op
  4305.380ms internalTidy
  6686.658ms externalTidy

This is coded for the PHP 4.3.x version of the extension, and may not
work on PHP5. Once installed ('pear install tidy' and add
'extension=tidy.so' to php.ini) it should automatically be picked up if
you've got $wgUseTidy on.

The changes are localized and don't alter the code interface, so I'll
backport this to 1.4 as a performance fix.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Honestly, this mailing list thread about a "Sanger/Wales war" is very
overblown.  Larry, perhaps it is that title which has you uptight?

> I just don't know what you could possibly thinking.  Why don't you clarify
> for the list what you meant, precisely, in light of the facts as I have
> presented them?  Surely you're not accusing *me* of having lied since
> practically the beginning of the project?

Gee, settle down.  I'm not accusing anyone of lying about anything.  I'm
just adding an interesting bit of historical trivia.

In mid-December, Jeremy showed me Ward Cunningham's wiki and suggested
it would be a possible solution for the constant complaints he was aware
of that I had about your top-down-community design for Nupedia.  When
you showed me the same thing a few weeks later, that was great.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Andrew Lih wrote:
> As for, "Who was co-founder of Wikipedia?" I'll wait until Jimbo responds.

Opinions about this may differ.  It's to some degree a matter of
terminology, and I don't particularly care about it one way or the
other.  I have no desire to see an ongoing storyline of a feud, it's not
helpful to anyone.

Larry wrote: "To be clear, the idea of an open source, collaborative
encyclopedia, open to contribution by ordinary people, was entirely
Jimmy's, not mine..." and that's exactly right, though of course I use
the term "free" rather than "open".

Larry wrote: "Jimmy then started a specialized policy page he called
'Neutral Point of View'" and goes on to explain that he feels that the
term became popular because it was used "by Wikipedians wanting to seem
hip" -- failing, I think, to recognize the special innovation that NPOV
is (as a social concept of co-operation which avoids some philosophical
dilemmas posed by such concepts as 'biased'), instead assuming that this
is just a cute phrase of hipsters.

Larry might be right or wrong about his disapproval of NPOV of course.
But he agrees that the idea for the freely licensed collaborative
encyclopedia open to contributions by ordinary people was mine, and that
NPOV was my idea, and that the investment was mine.  That's enough for
me.  Other people can decide what makes a founder.

I hired Larry to assist with my vision, and he did so competently.  We
argued constantly during the era of Nupedia, with me pressing for more
openness, and he pressing for more academic standards -- and I let him
win those arguments because _knowing what we knew then_, he was drawing
the correct conclusions.  Knowing what we know now, of course, his
design for Nupedia was a failure.  But that's easy to criticize in
retrospect -- Larry deserves credit for it despite the failure because
we did _not_ know what we know now.

I think people are unfortunately eager to see a war where there isn't
one -- at least not from my side.  Larry deserves credit for his work,
and no less.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Phil Sandifer wrote:
> My point here being that, all things being equal, when it comes to
> Jimbo's word against yours, I'm going to go with Jimbo.

Yes, but please let's not have it be about that.  I have only very very
minor quibbles with Larry's history (well, I haven't read it all yet).
He seemed to think I was accusing him of lying earlier, but that's
clearly just a misunderstanding.

If he doesn't remember me saying "Oh, yes, wiki, Jeremy showed me this
last month" (or whatever I said, but I did say something like this) --
this is not a discredit to him.  He says he doesn't even remember
Jeremy, after all. :-)

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikipedia-l] html emails

body:
Chad Perrin wrote:

> [snip]
>
>I currently use Mutt (a CLI email client), but not long ago I was
>getting list traffic through Thunderbird (a GUI email client).  Even so,
>I was using "simplified HTML" settings that did not display images at
>all.  The end result was that all that prettified HTML formatting
>spammers used was gone, as were inlined images.  Although Thunderbird
>did a reasonably good job of turning HTML email into what looked like
>text-only email, it still rendered some HTML-formatted email into
>gibberish.  Luckily, what it handled fairly well was email produced in
>email clients that had HTML formatting turned on by default -- which is
>all I really needed it to do, so that I could read emails from people
>who just didn't know any better.
>
>[snip]
>
Spam filters are fairly good these days. Thunderbird disables all images
in HTML by default, unless you click "display" or add the sender to your
address book, and HTML is disabled in spam by default.

Anyway, since quite a few email clients autolink things in plaintext
emails, you could probably get away with sending it out as a bunch of
links. Now if only their was an email client that would render Mediawiki
markup...

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject: [Wikitech-l] Remove Wikicode

body:
I don't think this is what I'm looking for, in fact I want exactly the
opposite. I already have the Wikicode in my database, and I want to
get rid of the Wikicode tags. The raw function returns the code in its
original format (Wiki tags included) without turning it into HTML,
right?

On 4/20/05, Thomas Gries <mail at tgries.de> wrote:
> Graham Neubig schrieb:
>
> >I'm planning on using the text of Wikipedia for research purposes but
> >I would like to remove the Wikicode, leaving only plain text. Does
> >anyone know of scripts or programs that do this automatically?
> >
> Grahan,
> you could perhaps use
> http://www.yourserver.com/yourwiki/index.php?action=raw&title=Pagetitle
> to get a raw dump of that page
>
>


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Sanger's memoirs

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> I've only skimmed these posts, but they seem to boil down to historical
> trivia ("we had 24 articles not 12!") and saying we should do things

Actually the article is a lot better than that.  It's an important
piece of history in the writing.  I'm looking forward to the book.
Larry is very careful to point out that he is Wikipedia's friend
and I see no conflict.

He started it as a test, and it snowballed out of control. Nobody
could predict its popularity.  Larry to me seems like a hesitant
Martin Luther who says "wait, I didn't want to start a new church,
only reform the old one!"  But nobody wants to wait.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se