subject: [Wikitech-l] Mass open proxy blocking

body:
If you're talking about sharing a blocklist between different
Wikipedias (or even different projects), can I suggest that instead of
defining which sites will be blocked, simply record information about
various sites, and allow projects to block based on that information.
That is, label "x.com is an open proxy", then "block all open
proxies", rather than "x.com must be blocked"...

Steve

On 6/27/06, Platonides <Platonides at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Blocking could be checked against two tables (or even a table array). The
> first one would be per-wiki, while the second one would be shared between
> wikis.
>
> Then, how would it be configured?
> *Should any wikipedia admin be able to (un)block anyone?
> *Should it be only done via meta / stewards?
> *How would global-blocking be locally handled? Should local project have a
> local-whitelist?
> *An special page for it or integrated in the specialblock (a new checkmark
> for example)?
> *If we have blocks on both tables, with different expire time, which should
> apply?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Ugly == "edit this page (read only)"

body:
On 6/27/06, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Somebody please put it back.
> Its like instruction creep for global tabs.

Hear hear. That is ugly as. Anything would be better than that.

Steve


from_name: maru dubshinki

subject: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

body:
On 6/26/06, Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/23/06, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:
> > o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
> >
> > Jesse W wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh, [[Truth]]!
> > > One of the articles-which-are-nearly-all-the-time-in-a-
> > > state- of-total-complete-insane-edit-war/massive-blather!
> > > It's a highly subtle concept, that *everyone* thinks they
> > > know a vast amount about, that there are very few clear,
> > > uncontroversial facts about. That's enough to make the
> > > devil jump with joy at all the craziness that can be
> > > created there. I'm sorry you got sucked in, but
> > > it's one of the worst tar pits on the wiki!
> > >
> > > Jesse Weinstein
> >
> > ''now'' you tell me ...
> >
> > fly in amber,
> >
> > ja
> >
> > o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
> > inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/
> > wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey
> > o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o

> TELL ME THE TRUTH!!!!
>
> (sorry I couldn't resist)

You want the *truth*? You want the TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

~maru
hey, if you can...


subject: [WikiEN-l] Spoiler Boilerplates

body:
On 6/26/06, Mark Wagner <carnildo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> When I look up a movie, I'm usually looking for something other than
> the plot, and in that case, I expect any spoiler sections to be noted
> -- odds are, I haven't seen the movie yet, and I don't want the ending
> to be spoiled.

Again, its not that important, I am just curious. Could maybe someone with a
copy of the encyclopedia Brittannica could look up Citizen Kane and see if
it mentiones Rosebud.

Garion


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Ilmari Karonen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Poem extension on Wikisource

body:
Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
>
> *How* the poem tag does what it does is precisely the way you, I, and
> everyone else who I've seen post thinks it ought to: by leveraging CSS.

Actually, based on Brion's original description, it does rather more
than that.  In fact, it introduces _new syntax_ that applies to any
wikitext enclosed in it.

Specifically, the <poem> environment introduces one new syntax element
(the linefeed: normally ignored when not followed by other special
markup, now creates a line break in output) and modifies the meaning of
another (leading whitespace: normally marks a verbatim preformatted
paragraph, now produces indentation).

Consider the fact that any existing poem on a MediaWiki page would break
horribly if wrapped in <poem> tags without changing the markup to match
the new syntax.  This is quite different from your typical semantic HTML
tag, like <code> or <blockquote>, which can generally be wrapped around
an existing block of markup without changing the way it is parsed.  In
this respect the <poem> tag is more like <pre> or even <table>, both of
which are unique presentational tags that require unusual markup to be
used within them.

--
Ilmari Karonen


subject: [Wikitech-l] Mass open proxy blocking

body:
Rob Church wrote:
>
> Let's stop talking about global blocking/permissions/etc. until single
> sign-on is complete. Then we can bolt things onto it. Without
> centralised user identification and authentication, we can do absolute
> Jack about global blocks.

Preferably let's not.  There's all sorts of nice things we can do easily
when we have single signon, but I'm not going to be holding my breath
until it happens.

We're not talking about blocking user accounts globally, which indeed
would depends on single signon.  What is being proposed here is a
centralized list of IP addresses of open proxies that Wikimedia projects
can choose to block automatically.

In fact, we effectively already have that ability, in the form of the
SORBS DNSBL code.  It's just that it was turned off, since it was using
a third-party list and we found that this didn't work too well.  All
we'd have to do to make it work again is set up our own private DNSBL
and an admin interface for it.

Of course, there may be other, even easier ways to do this.  I'm just
saying that single signon is only tangentially related to all this.

--
Ilmari Karonen


subject: [WikiEN-l] New York Times article

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
>
> Anon make a lot of typo corrections, but are rarely bold enough to fix
> major problems in articles.

I've been noticing that this seems to vary based on subject matter.
There are articles where no anon has ever made a useful contribution
other than typo fixing, but there are also others where we get useful
and well researched additions just popping out of the blue.

I believe what I'm seeing here is a variation in the pool of off-wiki
subject enthusiasts who are aware of the article but don't otherwise
contribute to Wikipedia.  For some subjects, these people tend to be
more clueful than for others; also, for some subjects the culture of
this group makes the useful contributors more likely to register than
for others.  When these two groups intersect, such that there are many
clueful unregistered people tracking a specific article, that's when you
get these high-quality anon edits.

Off the top of my head, [[Siamese Fighting Fish]] seems to be a good
example of an article with many good IP edits and little vandalism.
Presumably there are many others, but they're not the ones one usually
encounters while carrying out admin duties.

--
Ilmari Karonen


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] More image requests

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
> While we're at it, a way of doing colour replacements either at
> transclusion time, or permanently, would be really handy for certain
> maps created by people with, um, dubious colour preferences :)

Now we're just getting silly!

(There is a request out there for templatable SVG, though, which is
theoretically practical.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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list: foundation-l

from_name: Brad Patrick

subject: [Foundation-l] Open source CRM needed for Wikimedia

body:
To follow up on the discussion about the SugarCRM Open vs. Professional:

[snip]

One of the key differentiators between Sugar Open Source and Sugar
Professional is the team security functionality.  With Sugar Open Source,
all users within your Sugar instance can view all records, without any
restrictions.  With Sugar Professional, all records have a field for "Team"
which gives permission for visibility.  You still have the flexibility of
giving full visibility by selecting the Global team, however you can be more
restrictive on sensitive data, such as donor information.

Another key differentiation is that Sugar Professional has reporting
functionalities.  This allows all users to generate reports on any module
they wish.  The data from reports is exportable, and you can also generate
graphical representations of the reports that can be displayed on your
individual "Dashboard".  Sugar Professional reports honor the security set
by teams so each user can only run reports on data they have visibility to.

As for customizations you make that you wish to push back to Sugar Open
Source, the first thing to be aware of is that Sugar Open Source is licensed
under the Sugar Public License which you can view at:
http://www.sugarforge.org/content/open-source/public-license.php.  Any new
modules you create can be licensed under either the SPL or the commercial
license, as long as you are not modifying existing files.  If you make
modifications to existing files within Sugar Professional (such as layout
changes) and wish to push those to the Sugar Open Source community then you
would need our permission to have those fall under the SPL instead of the
commercial license.  This is something that we would consider; it would just
depend on the type of work was done, and which files were modified.

[/snip]
So, the takeaway from this is that (a) Sugar Open doesn't have any reporting
module at all; (b) the plug in modules for email and document management
only work (presently) under the commercial license (though that may change
in the future); (c) Sugar Open is limited in the zones of security it can
offer based on "role" (y/n access to a particular module) vs. "team" (y/n
data elements within module) level of security present in Pro.  The
hierarchical group security model would work well differentiating volunteers
from staff, access to data for reporting, and so forth.  That seems to make
a lot of sense to us as an organization for our particular needs.

The Sugar Open Source license is the Mozilla Open Source license modified to
cover SugarCRM.  See
http://www.sugarforge.org/content/open-source/public-license-faq.php
.   I like the idea of us developing tools we need and putting it back into
the source tree generally.  We still need to be clear on the requirements.
If it means deploying intially under the Pro license and pushing on the
sugarforge community to free up modules etc. and making the open product
better, I think we satisfy Eloquence's cautionary notes, which apply to any
commercial-where-free-isn't-quite-yet-there software.

The proprietary license is at
https://www.sugarcrm.com/crm/products/on-premise-eula.html.  (SJ, you ain't
gonna like it.)

Talk amongst yourselves. ;-)

-Brad


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: uninvited at nerstrand.net

subject: [WikiEN-l] Unblock-en-l

body:
After a good deal of discussion amongst OTRS participants and the WMFCC,
a conclusion was reached that unblock requests are an internal community
matter outside of the OTRS mission.

At present, the "contact us" page on the wiki as well as the text of the
block message encourage users to email info-en@ if they believe they
have been blocked unfairly.  We would like to change this.

Previously, unblock requests were directed here, to wikien-l, which was
not a particularly effective solution because it drew people to this
list who were not necessarily positive contributors to it in all cases.
 There were also some regrettable instances of blocked users being
treated in an unrespectful manner.

So now, instead, a new list has been set up specifically for unblock
requests.  As it draws subscribers, the intent is to change the block
text and the "contact us" pages to direct mail there.  Interested
Wikipedians may subscribe at:

http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/unblock-en-l

Experience has shown that the vast majority of requests will fall into
two categories:

(a) AOL and other proxy users who have never edited and don't understand
why they're accused of vandalism

(b) School users and proxy users from non-Western countries, who share a
proxy with a vandal and have no way to bypass it, and are asking to have
the proxy unblocked

The mailing list is open to anyone who wishes to join.  Admins who are
familiar with blocking policy and concerned about giving blocked users
a fair hearing are particularly encouraged to participate.

Needless to say, it is hoped that those who participate will limit
themselves to only highly respectful replies even in those cases where
the unblock request is wholly without merit.

The Uninvited Co., Inc.
(a Delaware corporation)


from_name: Jon Awbrey

subject: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

body:
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o

maru dubshinki wrote:

> > TELL ME THE TRUTH!!!!
> >
> > (sorry I couldn't resist)
>
> You want the *truth*? You want the TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
>
> ~maru
>
> hey, if you can ...

the truth is i came to WP to get away from discussion groups,
their non-productive going round'n'round the same-old-same-old
discursive circles with nobody really listening to each other,
in a kind of mass solipsism that is always going nowhere but
very noisly, and at first WP was refreshing break from that,
as there was always the aim of producing an encycolopedia
to focus one's xs energies on.  well, it's still possible
to find a few places that nobody else cares about, yet,
and to work on those isolated gardens of knowledge until
the xpressway comes through, bringing the book burners
and the brown sock puppets to trample it down into mush.
but the problem with that is that the core articles that
ought to be in a real encyclopedia are all becoming mush.

and dat's da truth ...

cheers, anyway,

ja

o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/
wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o


from_name: Brian Wolfe

body:
I was asked recently by a client to install an offshoot of SugarCRM
called C3CRM from a Chinese group that was adding the security and
reporting features to their latest beta.  I do not know how complete
either feature is, but it may be worth checking out. The installer is in
Chinese so you will have to have installed SugarCRM once before and view
the fields to understand what each field is for in the installer.

Might be worth a checkout.

On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 08:43 -0400, Brad Patrick wrote:
> To follow up on the discussion about the SugarCRM Open vs. Professional:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> One of the key differentiators between Sugar Open Source and Sugar
> Professional is the team security functionality.  With Sugar Open Source,
> all users within your Sugar instance can view all records, without any
> restrictions.  With Sugar Professional, all records have a field for "Team"
> which gives permission for visibility.  You still have the flexibility of
> giving full visibility by selecting the Global team, however you can be more
> restrictive on sensitive data, such as donor information.
>
> Another key differentiation is that Sugar Professional has reporting
> functionalities.  This allows all users to generate reports on any module
> they wish.  The data from reports is exportable, and you can also generate
> graphical representations of the reports that can be displayed on your
> individual "Dashboard".  Sugar Professional reports honor the security set
> by teams so each user can only run reports on data they have visibility to.
>
> As for customizations you make that you wish to push back to Sugar Open
> Source, the first thing to be aware of is that Sugar Open Source is licensed
> under the Sugar Public License which you can view at:
> http://www.sugarforge.org/content/open-source/public-license.php.  Any new
> modules you create can be licensed under either the SPL or the commercial
> license, as long as you are not modifying existing files.  If you make
> modifications to existing files within Sugar Professional (such as layout
> changes) and wish to push those to the Sugar Open Source community then you
> would need our permission to have those fall under the SPL instead of the
> commercial license.  This is something that we would consider; it would just
> depend on the type of work was done, and which files were modified.
>
> [/snip]
> So, the takeaway from this is that (a) Sugar Open doesn't have any reporting
> module at all; (b) the plug in modules for email and document management
> only work (presently) under the commercial license (though that may change
> in the future); (c) Sugar Open is limited in the zones of security it can
> offer based on "role" (y/n access to a particular module) vs. "team" (y/n
> data elements within module) level of security present in Pro.  The
> hierarchical group security model would work well differentiating volunteers
> from staff, access to data for reporting, and so forth.  That seems to make
> a lot of sense to us as an organization for our particular needs.
>
> The Sugar Open Source license is the Mozilla Open Source license modified to
> cover SugarCRM.  See
> http://www.sugarforge.org/content/open-source/public-license-faq.php
> .   I like the idea of us developing tools we need and putting it back into
> the source tree generally.  We still need to be clear on the requirements.
> If it means deploying intially under the Pro license and pushing on the
> sugarforge community to free up modules etc. and making the open product
> better, I think we satisfy Eloquence's cautionary notes, which apply to any
> commercial-where-free-isn't-quite-yet-there software.
>
> The proprietary license is at
> https://www.sugarcrm.com/crm/products/on-premise-eula.html.  (SJ, you ain't
> gonna like it.)
>
> Talk amongst yourselves. ;-)
>
> -Brad
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


body:
I forgot to add that it has a full English translation package in it so
you won't have to translate the main program. :)

On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:24 -0500, Brian Wolfe wrote:
> I was asked recently by a client to install an offshoot of SugarCRM
> called C3CRM from a Chinese group that was adding the security and
> reporting features to their latest beta.  I do not know how complete
> either feature is, but it may be worth checking out. The installer is in
> Chinese so you will have to have installed SugarCRM once before and view
> the fields to understand what each field is for in the installer.
>
> Might be worth a checkout.
>
> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 08:43 -0400, Brad Patrick wrote:
> > To follow up on the discussion about the SugarCRM Open vs. Professional:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> > One of the key differentiators between Sugar Open Source and Sugar
> > Professional is the team security functionality.  With Sugar Open Source,
> > all users within your Sugar instance can view all records, without any
> > restrictions.  With Sugar Professional, all records have a field for "Team"
> > which gives permission for visibility.  You still have the flexibility of
> > giving full visibility by selecting the Global team, however you can be more
> > restrictive on sensitive data, such as donor information.
> >
> > Another key differentiation is that Sugar Professional has reporting
> > functionalities.  This allows all users to generate reports on any module
> > they wish.  The data from reports is exportable, and you can also generate
> > graphical representations of the reports that can be displayed on your
> > individual "Dashboard".  Sugar Professional reports honor the security set
> > by teams so each user can only run reports on data they have visibility to.
> >
> > As for customizations you make that you wish to push back to Sugar Open
> > Source, the first thing to be aware of is that Sugar Open Source is licensed
> > under the Sugar Public License which you can view at:
> > http://www.sugarforge.org/content/open-source/public-license.php.  Any new
> > modules you create can be licensed under either the SPL or the commercial
> > license, as long as you are not modifying existing files.  If you make
> > modifications to existing files within Sugar Professional (such as layout
> > changes) and wish to push those to the Sugar Open Source community then you
> > would need our permission to have those fall under the SPL instead of the
> > commercial license.  This is something that we would consider; it would just
> > depend on the type of work was done, and which files were modified.
> >
> > [/snip]
> > So, the takeaway from this is that (a) Sugar Open doesn't have any reporting
> > module at all; (b) the plug in modules for email and document management
> > only work (presently) under the commercial license (though that may change
> > in the future); (c) Sugar Open is limited in the zones of security it can
> > offer based on "role" (y/n access to a particular module) vs. "team" (y/n
> > data elements within module) level of security present in Pro.  The
> > hierarchical group security model would work well differentiating volunteers
> > from staff, access to data for reporting, and so forth.  That seems to make
> > a lot of sense to us as an organization for our particular needs.
> >
> > The Sugar Open Source license is the Mozilla Open Source license modified to
> > cover SugarCRM.  See
> > http://www.sugarforge.org/content/open-source/public-license-faq.php
> > .   I like the idea of us developing tools we need and putting it back into
> > the source tree generally.  We still need to be clear on the requirements.
> > If it means deploying intially under the Pro license and pushing on the
> > sugarforge community to free up modules etc. and making the open product
> > better, I think we satisfy Eloquence's cautionary notes, which apply to any
> > commercial-where-free-isn't-quite-yet-there software.
> >
> > The proprietary license is at
> > https://www.sugarcrm.com/crm/products/on-premise-eula.html.  (SJ, you ain't
> > gonna like it.)
> >
> > Talk amongst yourselves. ;-)
> >
> > -Brad
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Rosebud! .... Rosebud!

body:
> From: Garion1000 <garion1000 at gmail.com>
> Again, its not that important, I am just curious. Could maybe
> someone with a
> copy of the encyclopedia Britannica could look up Citizen Kane and
> see if
> it mentions Rosebud.

_Very_ interesting.

I don't think I can answer the question you were implicitly asking,
namely "how does the Britannica handle 'spoilers.'" Or perhaps the
answer is that the Britannica doesn't deal in plot summaries so
doesn't _need_ to handle them.

The 2006 DVD version has no article on Citizen Kane specifically. (!)

A search on exact phrase "Citizen Kane" gives these results:

?Citizen Kane? (film by Welles)

     * major reference
     * discussed in biography
     * history of Great Depression
     * innovations in directing
     * production by RKO Radio Pictures, Inc.
     * role of
           o Mankiewicz
           o Moorehead
     * treatment of Hearst

The "major reference" is in a section of a long article about movies
describing the Hollywood studio system! It is mostly about
cinematographic advances in the service of Welles' vision:

Britannica says (about half snipped) "The most extraordinary film to
emerge from the studio system, however, was Orson Welles's Citizen
Kane (1941), whose controversial theme and experimental technique
combined to make it a classic.  (blah blah) radically innovative use
of sound and deep-focus photography as it examined the life of
Charles Foster Kane, a character based on the press baron William
Randolph Hearst.  (blah blah) complicated flashback structure (blah
blah)  paradoxically revealing not greatness or might but pathetic
insecurity and emptiness.  (blah blah) newly available Eastman film
stock (blah blah) plastic-coated wide-angle lenses opened to smaller
than normal apertures (blah blah) cinematographer Gregg Toland
achieved a photographic depth of field that approximated the
perceptual range of the human eye  (blah blah) techniques of ambient
and directional sound that Welles had learned from radio.  (blah
blah) functioning on several levels at once, the historical, the
psychological, and the mythic. Although recognized by many critics as
a work of genius, (blah blah financial failure no more Welles films).

In Welles' biography, all it says is "In 1940 Welles, on contract to
R.K.O., went to Hollywood and made the classic Citizen Kane (1941),
which portrayed the life of a newspaper magnate (suggestive of
William Randolph Hearst, who sought to ban the movie)"

Another mention, in an article about motion pictures, says "Different
scales are occasionally juxtaposed in a single shot to produce an
unmistakable dramatic or rhetorical effect. In Orson Welles's Citizen
Kane (1941) significant characters are repeatedly framed in the right
or left foreground while in the background an action takes place
which disturbs that character or which that character somehow
controls...."

No plot summary. No identification of Marion Davies. No
identification of "Rosebud" with a) a sled, or b) Davies' clitoris.

(Double-take) "Wide-angle lenses opened to _smaller_ than normal
apertures?"


subject: [WikiEN-l] Rosebud! .... Rosebud!

body:
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o

rosebud.  see mcguffin.

o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/
wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o


from_name: Andy Rabagliati

subject: [Wikitech-l] Static content Wikipedia/Wikimedia

body:
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Eric Astor wrote:

> Not quite... I've done a dump, and the format comes out differently - not
> really appropriate for a static dump, since among other things, the Search
> button is present but fails. I suspect it's just a skin difference or
> something similarly small, but it'd be good to have a public statement of
> what's necessary to get the same format as the November static HTML dumps.

The November dumps also have working Category links. It seems hard to
get these working properly.

Cheers,    Andy!


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Rosebud! .... Rosebud!

body:
On 6/27/06, Daniel P. B. Smith <wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com> wrote:
>
>
> (Double-take) "Wide-angle lenses opened to _smaller_ than normal
> apertures?"

Yes. There was a great piece in the New Yorker about Toland. He was a major
innovator. Wikipedia's article about [[deep focus]] doesn't explain the
mechanics of the technique.


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Giuseppe DAngelo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
Someone from it.wiki recently asked me where I got a picture of a Beatles single sleeve that I used on scn.wiki.  I said I got if from en.wiki.  He then responded that in that case it is not covered by Italian law because Italy does not have the fair use provisions found in the USA.  He suggested I delete the image from scn.wiki.

  I was a bit  dumbfounded by this response. For instance:
  1.  What does Italian law have to do with the Sicilian wikipedia?
  2.  Why is USA law necesarily valid for the whole of the English language wikipedia?
  3.  In any event, aren't the servers all in the USA?  So what's good for one wiki is surely good for another.

  He then told me that the Sicilian wikipedia sat on the Italian servers.  Once again I was equally dumbfounded, why?  since when?  under whose direction?  Remember that 90% of the contributions to scn.wiki arrive from sources outside of Italy.

  So - can I or can't I have this particular picture of a Beatles single sleeve, considering that it is ok to put up on en.wiki?
  pippu d'a

 Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale!
 http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [Wikitech-l] More image requests

body:
On 6/27/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> > Steve Bennett wrote:
> > > While we're at it, a way of doing colour replacements either at
> > > transclusion time, or permanently, would be really handy for certain
> > > maps created by people with, um, dubious colour preferences :)
> >
> > Now we're just getting silly!
>
> Heh, yeah I think you're right. Being able to do colour replacements
> on the server with some GUI extension would be kind of cool though.

Templatable SVG plus JS fun. It could be done... I'd say that it would
be of limited value, however... Just fix and reupload the darn SVG.

Now a wikimedia commons plugin in inkscape OTOH.   Or inkboard
integration with MediaWiki (for those that don't know, Inkboard is a
disabled by default beta feature in inkscape that allows multi user
realtime collaborative editing via jabber). :)


subject: [Wikitech-l] StringFunctions

body:
Wildrick Steele wrote:
> Is there any chance StringFunctions will get implemented on Wikimedia wikis?
> In the near future? At Wiktionary, we could use that stuff to work around
> some very ugly code we have at the moment.

You could start by telling us what it is and what it does. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: Joe Smack

subject: [Foundation-l] Opinions/suggestions for

body:
Ilya Haykinson <haykinson at ...> writes:

>
> I'll suggest three people who I think are great candidates for our board.
>
> First, Brewster Kahle, founder of Alexa and the Internet Archive.
>
> Second, Mike Godwin (of EFF, and Godwin's Law fame) might be a good
> choice.
>
> Finally, I suggest Mark Shuttleworth.  An African citizen who was one
> of the first to form a business dedicated to privacy and security on
> the Internet, Mark is active in the Linux world and is involved in
> educational and access-to-knowledge projects.
>
> -ilya
>

Might I affirm that these three candidates are screamingly good, and each would
be worth it to consider.

Joe


subject: [Foundation-l] Opinions/suggestions for


from_name: Jeff V. Merkey

body:
We are currently using vtiger for our open source CRM for Solera
Networks and it's quite excellent.

http://www.vtiger.org

Jeff


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> The bug that
> where certain characters in the excerpt halt the display of more
> results still exists as well.

Never heard of it. Please file a bug report.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Due to these factors it is always more useful to use google to search Wikipedia.
>
> Out of curiosity, why do the links to search Wikipedia via google and
> MSN only appear when the internal search function is down?

Because their purpose is as a fallback when search is down.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: mdd4696 at gmail.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] Editing highly used templates

body:
Hi all,

I'm curious to know exactly what the risk is from editing highly used
templates. There are several archive header templates on enwiki which
could potentially be used on many, many pages, and I want to ensure
that if I make a modification to one of them that it doesn't have any
ill effects.

If I make one edit to a template used on many infrequently visited
pages, would that cause issues?

~Mdd4696


from_name: Rob Church

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Cross-Site-Scripting arbitrary JavaScript
	execution and HTML insertion vulnerability in the live Wikipedia.

references:
<NABBJGECPILFNLFEAPIKGENDIFAA.nickpj@gmail.com>
	<NABBJGECPILFNLFEAPIKOEPJIFAA.nickpj@gmail.com>
	<e7nrtv$t4i$1@sea.gmane.org> <e7p9d0$skr$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20060626190942.GA10332@apotheon.com>
	<20060627001517.GG1027@cgi.jachomes.com>

body:
On 27/06/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> Remember: while running SVN revs in production is not the recommended
> approach, there are people who do it.

*snigger*

Rob Church


from_name: mboverload

subject: [WikiEN-l] 3RR policy proposal: No "Gotcha" rule

body:
On 6/27/06, fireislandparadise <fireislandparadise at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/25/06, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 6/24/06, fireislandparadise <fireislandparadise at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > My problem is that not requiring a warning encourages gaming by making
> > it
> > > easier for a more savvy edit warrior to take advantage of another
> editor
> > and
> > > play "gotcha". This is particularly the case as most editors aren't
> > aware of
> > > the new "unrelated reverts" interpretation. If someone is savvy enough
> > to
> > > complain on ANI/3RR they should be capable of giving someone a warning
> > > first, especially if they are a participant in the edit war.
> > >
> >
> > The "unrelated reverts" interpretation isn't new (see my own edits on
> > the 3RR talk page, circa February, 2005).  If you need it spelled out
> > to you, here it is:
> >
> > Don't engage in edit warring on any page. Ever.
>
>
>
> The problem is the "unrelated reverts" rule makes it much easier to be
> blocked without there having been an edit war.
>
> _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Rosebud! .... Rosebud!

body:
Wikipedia isn't Britannica.

mboverload

On 6/27/06, Garion1000 <garion1000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
> >
> > rosebud.  see mcguffin.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcguffin. That btw is one article where the
> spoiler warning definitely makes sense.
>
> Garion
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Puppy

body:
 > From: "Steve Bennett" <stevagewp at gmail.com>
 >
 > On 6/23/06, Warren Blanco <fireislandparadise at gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >> Lack of warning
 >>
 >> A 3RR ban cannot be imposed against an editor who has not been
warned that
 >> he or she is in danger of violating the 3RR. A ban can only be
imposed when
 >> an editor violates the 3RR after receiving a warning even if he or
she has
 >> already tecnically violated the 3RR prior to receiving a warning.
 >>
 >
 > Strongly oppose. Admins should use discretion in not blocking unwarned
 > users, but they shouldn't be prevented from doing so. 3RR is already
 > subject to gaming, and it only works because it's so strict. Giving
 > more escape clauses is a bad idea.
 >
 > Steve
 >
I also strongly oppose. There is already protection for new users who
may be unaware of the rules; most Admins already try to avoid BITE-ing
newcomers. This would open the door to even more abuse than we have
currently; IMHO the goal is correctly to reduce edit warring, not
increase wiki-lawyering.
-kc-


from_name: Rosa, Michael

subject: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

body:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org
>[mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of maru dubshinki
>Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2006 15:19
>To: English Wikipedia
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

>> TELL ME THE TRUTH!!!!
>>
>> (sorry I couldn't resist)
>
>You want the *truth*? You want the TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

No truth handler you are!  I deride you truth handling ability!

(sorry)


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

body:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 07:10:07PM +0200, Platonides wrote:
> "Rob Church" wrote:
> > The main argument boils down to semantics. The output is wrapped in
> >
, meaning that people can opt to see poems formatted
> > in a specific manner. This formatting might not need to be applied to
> > non-poem texts, or it might be otherwise undesirable. In short, it
> > comes down to "don't mark up non poems as poems".
> >
> > It would be somewhat trivial to expand the extension to allow
> > customising the class output according to the tag used; if another use
> > case pops up, we can add another tag and class combination.
>
> This seems the most logical of all the discussion. Make the <poem> produce
>
 and <poem class="Foo">
. It may seem
> strange a poem of recipe class but could be the solution for all this
> problematic.

Well, perhaps, but remember that it was just pointed out that the poem
tag does special things specific to poems, which may or may note be
appropriate to other specialty insertions -- which may be why it's
called called 'poem', come to think of it.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

     A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
     Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

     A: Top-posting.
     Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?


references:
<NABBJGECPILFNLFEAPIKGENDIFAA.nickpj@gmail.com>
	<NABBJGECPILFNLFEAPIKOEPJIFAA.nickpj@gmail.com>
	<e7nrtv$t4i$1@sea.gmane.org> <e7p9d0$skr$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<20060626190942.GA10332@apotheon.com>
	<20060627001517.GG1027@cgi.jachomes.com>
	<e92136380606270703p4e6b20f4m7cb781125e830e85@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 03:03:14PM +0100, Rob Church wrote:
> On 27/06/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> > Remember: while running SVN revs in production is not the recommended
> > approach, there are people who do it.
>
> *snigger*

/me bows

Cheers,
-- jr 'I'm not one of them, of course...' a
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

     A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
     Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

     A: Top-posting.
     Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki/transwiki imports mostly working now

body:
I've patched up some old problems with Special:Import and Special:Export:

* Import updates categories etc
* Imports are logged and reviewable in Special:Log/import
* Imported pages also get a null edit in the history indicating the import and
its source
* Export is fixed up to allow fetching history for shorter pages, while still
aborting to avoid bogging down the servers on longer pages (currently set to a
cutoff of 100 edits)
* Transwiki import allows selecting the import-with-history

Wikis wishing transwiki import capability should let us know which wikis they
want to be able to import directly from (for instance, from a wikipedia ->
wiktionary) and we can enable it.

Please pass this notice on to wikis where it will be of interest.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: Berto

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
Hi!

>   1.  What does Italian law have to do with the Sicilian wikipedia?
You should better ask the wmf lawyers for this. Basically when "selling"
something the lawset used depends on where the buyer is. But wmf does not
sell anything, so it should be the server's physical placement to be
involved. I don't really think that wmf servers are in Italy, so I do not
see why the italian law should apply to anyone (it.wiki included).

The alternative approach would be considering where the action is performed,
as it happens with sales. It looks quite time consuming, though, since we
have none of the usual commercial docs that track a sale process. A possible
answer could be: track down the IP. I believe that this might give us a
proper identification for the upload origin, but then... we are going to
need a copyright policy for each every nation on earth. It looks pretty
twisted.

>   2.  Why is USA law necesarily valid for the
> whole of the English language wikipedia?
see point 1)

> He then told me that the Sicilian wikipedia sat
> on the Italian servers.  Once again I was equally
> dumbfounded, why?  since when?  under whose
> direction?  Remember that 90% of the contributions
> to scn.wiki arrive from sources outside of Italy.

Tracert scn.wikipedia.org gives me:
  1   151 ms   152 ms   138 ms  ************** [**********] hiding myself,
sorry :)
  2   170 ms   153 ms   130 ms  ukrnet-293.ukr.net [212.42.64.225]
  3   232 ms   233 ms   838 ms  taurus.ukr.net [212.42.64.29]
  4   144 ms     *      153 ms  kiska.interlink.net.ua [194.44.84.5]
  5   197 ms   153 ms   154 ms  vombat.itsinternet.net [213.133.160.169]
  6   197 ms   150 ms   151 ms  195.94.194.145
  7   160 ms   167 ms   168 ms  plwaw3-ge-1-3-0-311.net.ipartners.pl
[157.25.3.1]
  8   202 ms   172 ms   193 ms  fra-tr1-p0-1-1.gtsce.net [195.39.208.69]
  9   239 ms   162 ms   183 ms  ge-3-2-0-0-zar1.fri.cw.net [166.63.204.109]
 10   322 ms   180 ms   875 ms  so-4-0-0-dcr2.fra.cw.net [195.2.10.225]
 11   595 ms   190 ms   197 ms  so-4-0-0-dcr1.amd.cw.net [195.2.10.149]
 12   240 ms   577 ms   565 ms  so-4-0-0-bcr1.amd.cw.net [195.2.10.25]
 13   202 ms   766 ms   203 ms  surfnet2.amd.cw.net [208.173.211.198]
 14   206 ms   216 ms     *     AZ-500.XSR01.Amsterdam1A.surf.net
[145.145.80.21]
 15   199 ms   197 ms   534 ms  kncsw001-router.customer.surf.net
[145.145.18.158]
 16   192 ms   262 ms   193 ms  gi0-24.csw2-knams.wikimedia.org
[145.97.32.29]
 17   266 ms   205 ms   215 ms  rr.knams.wikimedia.org [145.97.39.155]

That does NOT look italian at all. I'd rather bet my euros on Holland, if I
was to make a guess. And it makes sense, because it's on the backbone. BTW,
you get the very same result for "tracert pms.wikipedia.org" AND "tracert
it.wikipedia.org" (!). So I guess the person talking about italian servers
was simply poorly informed, because there is no such thing as an "italian
server", not even for the italian edition. They can check with tracert if
they are in doubt and update their information. One thing is true: both scn
and it are on the same server, yet I cannot seem to understand how this can
put them under the competence of the italian laws. We actually should all
use the dutch laws, in instead. And if this is proved to be true, the whole
copyright checking process on it.wiki might call for revisions. Not the
it.wiki is special in this, I suppose many more editions may find themselves
in muddy waters.

>   So - can I or can't I have this particular picture of a Beatles single
sleeve, considering that it is ok to put up on en.wiki?
IMHO, whenever in doubt the answer should be "load it on commons". They are
surely well away from italian lawmakers, because Italy is not on the main
physical backbone and having a shared server there would end up in making a
slower route for most users. Too bad that when you trace
"commons.wikipedia.org" you get the very same result you got for all
previously quoted editions. It's Holland, once again. So I am quite doubtful
as per using IT or USA laws on it, too.

I myself have sometimes been amazed from IT copyright checkers, too. They
often quote the italian law in their policies. Now, how can italian laws
apply to people who load content on a foreign server from a foreign country?
That may apply only to italian residents (no matter on which edition they
upload what), provided that we apply policies to single users and not to
physical servers.

I suppose the real problem is that we should have a global copyright policy
stated and translated for it to be published on all servers as a part of the
distributed UI on Betawiki "prior" to opening any new edition. This really
is a job for lawyers, it cannot be done by taking guesses  since it impacts
both on content management and on the risk of people being sued for
copyright infringement. The most important thing to make clear is: who is
subject to whose laws, and by what criteria one can objectively determine
it. Once we get this clear, the rest is a pure matter of logics.

Any suggestions?

B?rto


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [Wikitech-l] More image requests

body:
While we're at it, a way of doing colour replacements either at
transclusion time, or permanently, would be really handy for certain
maps created by people with, um, dubious colour preferences :)
Here's an example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_political_system

Strangely, there doesn't seem to have been any unified colour set
adopted across English Wikipedia, but if one day such a thing was
adopted, it would be handy to be able to transclude maps from Commons,
respecting the colour preferences of each Wikipedia.

It would be a bit chunky for a [[Image:...]] command, but could
technically be done that way:
[[Image:foo.jpg|substcol:128,255,128:0,128,0|substcol:255,255,255:128,0,255]].

Steve


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 6/27/06, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> On the other hand, our current search seems to hold up nicely these days...

By what definition of hold up?
Yes it's does seem to be providing results faster than ever but they
haven't stopped being low quality and nearly useless.. The bug that
where certain characters in the excerpt halt the display of more
results still exists as well.


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia, again

body:
Now, here's some proof of deception.

Jacky/Dpotop claims here that the reasoning behind the proposal to
close the Moldovan Wikipedia is that there are no native contributors
(which is no longer true exactly).

As this message from an ally of his, Dapiks/Constanteanu shows, this
is not the case; rather it is politically motivated:

"Buna,

A inceput un vot pentru stergerea "Wikipediei Moldovenesti", o creatie
a unui Evreu-American, cu origini suspecte in Basarabia si care nu
vorbeste limba wikipediei la care pretinde a fi sysop. Il cheama Node
ue si pentru a crea impresia ca lumea doreste aceasta wikipedie, a
apelat la toti utilizatorii rusi care au venit sa voteze de partea lui
desi nu cunosc bine subiectul si li s-a spus ca voteaza pentru
supravietuirea alfabetului chirilic. Asa a ajuns ca votul sa fie 31
pentru stergerea Mo wiki, si 42 impotriva stergerii - deci in alte
cuvinte pentru pastrarea wikipediei in limba "moldoveneasca". Vino si
voteaza aici[1] , ca sa sergem acesta creatura cu miros bolshevic,
care insulta toti romanii de pe ambele maluri ale Prutului. Node ue
le-a spus rusilor sa traduca mesajul lui in limba rusa si sa-l
transmita mai departe. Trimite si tu mesajul acesta la toti
utilizatorii romani-unionisti sau romani-moldoveni unionisti pe care-i
cunosti pe en.wiki sau ro.wiki. Dapiks 23:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"

Hopefully some of you can guess what this means, but I will give you a
summary of what he said.

He says that a vote has begun for the deletion of the "Moldovan
Wikipedia" (in quotes), notes that it is the "creation of a
Jewish-American with possible origins in Bessarabia" (Bessarabia is a
historical term here used in a derogatory context to refer to the
modern-day Republic of Moldova). He goes on to say that the
Jewish-American's name is "Node ue", and that this person has "called
all Russian users to vote on his side even though they do not know the
subject well". He then notes the current number of votes in a
belittling manner. He goes on to urge people to come and vote to
delete "this ugly Bolshevik creation which insults all Romanians on
both sides of the Pruth".

The particularly political part is at the end when he says "Send this
message also to all Romanian or Romano-Moldovan unionist users which
you know on en.wiki or mo.wiki."

An urge to spread a message to only people of a certain political
background seems unacceptable. Yes, I did post at the village pump of
the Russian Wikipedia and request a message to be translated into
Russian (according to some Romanians, my message was anti-Romanian and
deceptive, however when Dpotop posted a counter-argument, most
Russians continued to maintain previous opinions). However, I
encouraged EVERYONE to vote, which ultimately included one Russian
user who voted for the closing of mo.wikipedia.

Mark

On 24/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
>
> <i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
>
> No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=11594], which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set by Node_ue.
>
> After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here [[:ru:?????????:?????/???????#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence of Moldovan editors).
>
> In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and pretends they are in a different language.
>
> It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language" different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]], [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
>
> Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can tell you the same  (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from ro.wiki).
>
> While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid trolls.
>
> It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its re-opening and assumes admin rights.
>
> This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
>
> Yours sincerely,
> [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

body:
On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:
> to focus one's xs energies on.  well, it's still possible
> to find a few places that nobody else cares about, yet,

Yeah, only about 1.15 million of them.

Steve


body:
On 6/27/06, mdd4696 at gmail.com <mdd4696 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm curious to know exactly what the risk is from editing highly used
> templates. There are several archive header templates on enwiki which
> could potentially be used on many, many pages, and I want to ensure
> that if I make a modification to one of them that it doesn't have any
> ill effects.
>
> If I make one edit to a template used on many infrequently visited
> pages, would that cause issues?

Depends how many times it's used. Basically, every page where it's
used has to be regenerated. A few hundred pages is ok, probably a few
thousand too. Above 10,000 you'll probably want to think carefully
before doing it. Above 100,000 seek expert advice :)

Steve


from_name: Jon Awbrey

subject: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

body:
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o

okay, i get it, everything is just hunky dory in wikiparadise.
do not let the fact that wikipedia wastes expertise the way a
bradley fighting vehicle wastes gas trouble you one teeny bit.

don't worry,
be happy,

ja

Steve Bennett wrote:
>
> On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:
> > to focus one's xs energies on.  well, it's still possible
> > to find a few places that nobody else cares about, yet,
>
> Yeah, only about 1.15 million of them.
>
> Steve

o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/
wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o


from_name: Leonardo Gregianin

subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiPT mail list

body:
Hi,
Does not have administration in the WikiPT list because current admin
disappeared. The e-mail also is disactivated and only has an
administration e-mail. The Wiki-Pt did not oppose me to manage the
list [1]. Could include me?

[1]
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Esplanada/geral#Lista_de_discuss?o

Cheers,
Leonardo Gregianin.


from_name: Simetrical

body:
On 6/27/06, mdd4696 at gmail.com <mdd4696 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm curious to know exactly what the risk is from editing highly used
> templates. There are several archive header templates on enwiki which
> could potentially be used on many, many pages, and I want to ensure
> that if I make a modification to one of them that it doesn't have any
> ill effects.
>
> If I make one edit to a template used on many infrequently visited
> pages, would that cause issues?

In principle, the worst possibility is a bit of extra slowness for a
little while, as some pages have to be recached.  If the pages are
infrequently visited (as the vast majority of non-article space stuff
is, comparatively--remember that there are far more readers than
editors), then this slight extra slowness will be spread out over a
longer period of time, becoming less noticeable.  How much this extra
slowness amounts to has never been calculated, to my knowledge; it
could be so small as to be unnoticeable.  And certainly an isolated
edit is no problem: at worst, it's the load equivalent of making an
edit to every page the template is included in, which wouldn't
realistically increase the load on servers that handle something on
the order of ten thousand page views a *second*.

If there's any reasonable purpose served by editing the template,
there's no reason to hesitate.  If something puts too much load on the
servers, the devs will edit the software so that you can't do it or
it's not a problem; see, for instance, recategorizing templates (which
is handled in a job queue rather than being executed right away) or
transcluding templates in sigs (they're automatically substed).  Devs
handle the backend, don't worry about it.


subject: [Wikitech-l] StringFunctions

body:
On 6/27/06, Wildrick Steele <wildrick.steele at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there any chance StringFunctions will get implemented on Wikimedia wikis?
> In the near future? At Wiktionary, we could use that stuff to work around
> some very ugly code we have at the moment.

Ooh, ugly hacks.  Link?  :)


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 6/27/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 27/06/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> > By what definition of hold up?
> > Yes it's does seem to be providing results faster than ever but they
> > haven't stopped being low quality and nearly useless..
>
> You mean the indexing's too out of date, or something else?

Indexing is out of date, searching for multiple words gives the union
not the intersection, if there is stemming it is broken, and no
ability to do fuzzy matching (no soundex or double metaphone equal)
means that if you don't spell something the same as the article (or
you don't know how to spell it, a top use for search...) then you
don't get results.. oh and searching other namespaces is broken ( for
example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?ns8=1&search=There&fulltext=Search).

Due to these factors it is always more useful to use google to search Wikipedia.

> > The bug that
> > where certain characters in the excerpt halt the display of more
> > results still exists as well.
>
> Is this known on BugZilla?

I'm not sure. It's easy to reproduce, but hard to pin down when things
aren't up to date. I recall that Kate knew about it. ::shrugs::.


body:
On 6/27/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be written up in red writing somewhere? It seems to be very
> common that non-devs tell each other not to do things because "it's
> bad for performance" etc.

I wish it would be.  For the time being I have to make do with quoting
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29&diff=36029520&oldid=36025274>
all the time, but for some reason some people think that "'Policy'
shouldn't really concern itself with server load except in the most
extreme of cases; keeping things tuned to provide what the user base
needs is our job" somehow doesn't mean what it says except for
meta-templates.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Moldovan wikipedia, again

body:
Am I the only one here that is completely an utterly confused?

mboverload_confused

On 6/27/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Now, here's some proof of deception.
>
> Jacky/Dpotop claims here that the reasoning behind the proposal to
> close the Moldovan Wikipedia is that there are no native contributors
> (which is no longer true exactly).
>
> As this message from an ally of his, Dapiks/Constanteanu shows, this
> is not the case; rather it is politically motivated:
>
> "Buna,
>
> A inceput un vot pentru stergerea "Wikipediei Moldovenesti", o creatie
> a unui Evreu-American, cu origini suspecte in Basarabia si care nu
> vorbeste limba wikipediei la care pretinde a fi sysop. Il cheama Node
> ue si pentru a crea impresia ca lumea doreste aceasta wikipedie, a
> apelat la toti utilizatorii rusi care au venit sa voteze de partea lui
> desi nu cunosc bine subiectul si li s-a spus ca voteaza pentru
> supravietuirea alfabetului chirilic. Asa a ajuns ca votul sa fie 31
> pentru stergerea Mo wiki, si 42 impotriva stergerii - deci in alte
> cuvinte pentru pastrarea wikipediei in limba "moldoveneasca". Vino si
> voteaza aici[1] , ca sa sergem acesta creatura cu miros bolshevic,
> care insulta toti romanii de pe ambele maluri ale Prutului. Node ue
> le-a spus rusilor sa traduca mesajul lui in limba rusa si sa-l
> transmita mai departe. Trimite si tu mesajul acesta la toti
> utilizatorii romani-unionisti sau romani-moldoveni unionisti pe care-i
> cunosti pe en.wiki sau ro.wiki. Dapiks 23:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"
>
> Hopefully some of you can guess what this means, but I will give you a
> summary of what he said.
>
> He says that a vote has begun for the deletion of the "Moldovan
> Wikipedia" (in quotes), notes that it is the "creation of a
> Jewish-American with possible origins in Bessarabia" (Bessarabia is a
> historical term here used in a derogatory context to refer to the
> modern-day Republic of Moldova). He goes on to say that the
> Jewish-American's name is "Node ue", and that this person has "called
> all Russian users to vote on his side even though they do not know the
> subject well". He then notes the current number of votes in a
> belittling manner. He goes on to urge people to come and vote to
> delete "this ugly Bolshevik creation which insults all Romanians on
> both sides of the Pruth".
>
> The particularly political part is at the end when he says "Send this
> message also to all Romanian or Romano-Moldovan unionist users which
> you know on en.wiki or mo.wiki."
>
> An urge to spread a message to only people of a certain political
> background seems unacceptable. Yes, I did post at the village pump of
> the Russian Wikipedia and request a message to be translated into
> Russian (according to some Romanians, my message was anti-Romanian and
> deceptive, however when Dpotop posted a counter-argument, most
> Russians continued to maintain previous opinions). However, I
> encouraged EVERYONE to vote, which ultimately included one Russian
> user who voted for the closing of mo.wikipedia.
>
> Mark
>
> On 24/06/06, Jacky PB <dpotop1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > Remember, you decided to leave the Moldovan wikipedia freezed, but not
> completely deleted. Now, its unique contributor [[:en:User:Node_ue]], is
> back (probably on school holiday), with his anti-Romanian edits. I cite from
> [[:mo:Wikipedia_talk:Administrator]]:
> >
> > <i> Please don't write in Romanian here, write Moldovan. Every time you
> write Romanian on the Moldovan wikipedia, god kills a kitten. </i>
> >
> > No to mention that he initiated a vote to become again sysop, then tried
> to falsify the results (because they were not favourable). The current
> version of the page [[:mo:Wikipedia:Administrator]] is that rigged by
> Node_ue, but take a look at the history on the vote page [
> http://mo.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator&oldid=11594],
> which shows the true result of the vote according to the original rules set
> by Node_ue.
> >
> > After this, he managed to invite the entire Russian wikipedia to take
> position on a language they know nothing about here: [[:meta:Proposals for
> closing projects]]. Take a look at his post here
> [[:ru:?????????:?????/???????#Moldovan]], and notice the blatant lie
> concerning the cyrillic script (whereas the problem is in fact the absence
> of Moldovan editors).
> >
> > In the meantime, Node_ue is copying articles from ro.wiki to mo.wiki and
> pretends they are in a different language.
> >
> > It must be noted that he is the only one on the entire wikipedia (all
> wikipedias took together) to pretend speaking a "Moldovan language"
> different from the Romanian one. Just take a look at [[:en:Category:User
> mo]], [[:mo:Category:User mo]], [[:ro:Category:User mo]],
> [[:ru:Category:User mo]].
> >
> > Moreover he himself places himself at level mo-2. I can assure you this
> guy isn't able to write correct text in Moldovan. Any native Moldovan can
> tell you the same  (in fact, this is why he keeps copying articles from
> ro.wiki).
> >
> > While no native Moldovan editor exists, the Moldovan wikipedia will
> continue to be a political statement that exacerbates nationalisms from
> Romania, Russia, and Moldova itself, and a playground for clever and stupid
> trolls.
> >
> > It should be closed until a native Moldovan editor requires its
> re-opening and assumes admin rights.
> >
> > This argument has already been put forward here [[:meta:Proposals for
> closing projects#What decision makers need to know]].
> >
> > Yours sincerely,
> > [[:en:User:Dpotop]], [[:ro:User:Dpotop]]
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> >  Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] More image requests

body:
On 6/27/06, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Steve Bennett wrote:
> > While we're at it, a way of doing colour replacements either at
> > transclusion time, or permanently, would be really handy for certain
> > maps created by people with, um, dubious colour preferences :)
>
> Now we're just getting silly!

Heh, yeah I think you're right. Being able to do colour replacements
on the server with some GUI extension would be kind of cool though.

Steve


from_name: fireislandparadise

body:
On 6/25/06, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/24/06, fireislandparadise <fireislandparadise at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My problem is that not requiring a warning encourages gaming by making
> it
> > easier for a more savvy edit warrior to take advantage of another editor
> and
> > play "gotcha". This is particularly the case as most editors aren't
> aware of
> > the new "unrelated reverts" interpretation. If someone is savvy enough
> to
> > complain on ANI/3RR they should be capable of giving someone a warning
> > first, especially if they are a participant in the edit war.
> >
>
> The "unrelated reverts" interpretation isn't new (see my own edits on
> the 3RR talk page, circa February, 2005).  If you need it spelled out
> to you, here it is:
>
> Don't engage in edit warring on any page. Ever.

The problem is the "unrelated reverts" rule makes it much easier to be
blocked without there having been an edit war.

_______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Daniel P. B. Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

body:
> From: Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net>
> okay, i get it, everything is just hunky dory in wikiparadise.
> do not let the fact that wikipedia wastes expertise the way a
> bradley fighting vehicle wastes gas trouble you one teeny bit.

My own observation with regard to Wikipedia is that when I find
myself getting angry, I usually discover that I have been trying to
exert _control_ over something. When I am satisfied with exerting
_influence_, I usually am much happier.


from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
This is really a matter for the users of the Sicilian wikipedia to
decide - each version of Wikipedia right now decides on the parameters
they wish to adopt.  All must be legal under Florida law, of course,
since that's where the servers in general reside.

-Matt


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
I thought each wikipedia provided its own servers....

mboverload

On 6/27/06, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is really a matter for the users of the Sicilian wikipedia to
> decide - each version of Wikipedia right now decides on the parameters
> they wish to adopt.  All must be legal under Florida law, of course,
> since that's where the servers in general reside.
>
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Gianluigi Gamba

subject: [Foundation-l] Vicenza, Italy

body:
> WooHoo! Congratulations Wikimedia Italia! This looks wonderful (and
> exhausting!) The pictures are especially nice; you show us some of the
> many things Wikimedians must do besides editing. <grin>

Thank you all for the words of appreciation.
They have certainly been exhausting days, but we also had a lot of fun.
I daresay we all have the will to repeat the experience, sooner or later.
:o)

Bye.
G. (aka Paginazero)


subject: [Foundation-l] Vicenza, Italy


from_name: Tommy Li

subject: [Wikitech-l] Use of markup legal?

body:
Hello,

I'm developing a piece of software not connected with Wikipedia or
Mediawiki. Is it legal to use the same markup system Mediawiki has?

Tommy


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
On 6/27/06, Brianna Laugher <brianna.laugher at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, but that's not going to happen. The lawyers (baffingly) seem to
> be happy with the current situation where total amatuers try to
> untangle international copyright all by their lonesome. Go figure.

Unfortunately, I believe, trying to set a policy could be interpreted
as the Wikimedia Foundation taking responsibility for it too, rather
than leaving the responsibility for copyright infringement on the
uploading users, as it should be.

-Matt


subject: [Wikitech-l] while editing, transient? Zero Sized Reply

body:
William Allen Simpson wrote:
> The following error was encountered:
>
>      * Zero Sized Reply
>
> Squid did not receive any data for this request.

This is generally the result of a crashing Apache child process. The APC opcode
cache for PHP 5.x appears to be sometimes a little flaky; Tim and Domas are
poking at it from time to time, maybe we can help in getting the remaining
problems resolved.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Use of markup legal?

body:
Tommy Li wrote:
> I'm developing a piece of software not connected with Wikipedia or
> Mediawiki. Is it legal to use the same markup system Mediawiki has?

Certainly.

If you use our actual program code, of course, GPL may apply.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Rosebud! .... Rosebud!

body:
On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:
>
> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
>
> rosebud.  see mcguffin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcguffin. That btw is one article where the
spoiler warning definitely makes sense.

Garion


from_name: Platonides

body:
This seems the most logical of all the discussion. Make the <poem> produce

 and <poem class="Foo">
. It may seem
strange a poem of recipe class but could be the solution for all this
problematic.

"Rob Church" wrote:
> The main argument boils down to semantics. The output is wrapped in
>
, meaning that people can opt to see poems formatted
> in a specific manner. This formatting might not need to be applied to
> non-poem texts, or it might be otherwise undesirable. In short, it
> comes down to "don't mark up non poems as poems".
>
> It would be somewhat trivial to expand the extension to allow
> customising the class output according to the tag used; if another use
> case pops up, we can add another tag and class combination.
>
>
> Rob Church


from_name: Marco Chiesa

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

body:
I am not an expert, but I am pretty sure that a non-Italian person who
is not in Italy and uploads on a server which is not in Italy cannot be
subject to Italian law. I'm not even sure that the fact that some
servers are in Holland is enough for Dutch law to matter. Copyright on
internet is quite a complicated matter, and it would be very nice to
have things more clear (also for things like public domain). On
it.wikipedia fairuse images have been limited through a community poll
in order to avoid potential copyright issues, Italian law is taken as a
reference since most users and readers are Italian (and therefore are
subject to Italian law). However, scn.wikipedia is a different project
so decisions taken by it.wikipedia should be no more relevant than
decisions taken by any other project. As far as I understand, if I
upload something from country X I have to abide laws of country X and
laws of the USA (country where the servers are or where WMF is
registered) - which means that if country X does not admit fair use the
user would be infringing copyright if uploading fair use material from
country X. However, I would appreciate any effort of the WMF lawyers to
clarify this situation.

Marco (aka Cruccone)

Berto wrote:

>Hi!
>
>
>
>>  1.  What does Italian law have to do with the Sicilian wikipedia?
>>
>>
>You should better ask the wmf lawyers for this. Basically when "selling"
>something the lawset used depends on where the buyer is. But wmf does not
>sell anything, so it should be the server's physical placement to be
>involved. I don't really think that wmf servers are in Italy, so I do not
>see why the italian law should apply to anyone (it.wiki included).
>
>The alternative approach would be considering where the action is performed,
>as it happens with sales. It looks quite time consuming, though, since we
>have none of the usual commercial docs that track a sale process. A possible
>answer could be: track down the IP. I believe that this might give us a
>proper identification for the upload origin, but then... we are going to
>need a copyright policy for each every nation on earth. It looks pretty
>twisted.
>
>
>
>>  2.  Why is USA law necesarily valid for the
>>whole of the English language wikipedia?
>>
>>
>see point 1)
>
>
>
>>He then told me that the Sicilian wikipedia sat
>>on the Italian servers.  Once again I was equally
>>dumbfounded, why?  since when?  under whose
>>direction?  Remember that 90% of the contributions
>>to scn.wiki arrive from sources outside of Italy.
>>
>>
>
>Tracert scn.wikipedia.org gives me:
>  1   151 ms   152 ms   138 ms  ************** [**********] hiding myself,
>sorry :)
>  2   170 ms   153 ms   130 ms  ukrnet-293.ukr.net [212.42.64.225]
>  3   232 ms   233 ms   838 ms  taurus.ukr.net [212.42.64.29]
>  4   144 ms     *      153 ms  kiska.interlink.net.ua [194.44.84.5]
>  5   197 ms   153 ms   154 ms  vombat.itsinternet.net [213.133.160.169]
>  6   197 ms   150 ms   151 ms  195.94.194.145
>  7   160 ms   167 ms   168 ms  plwaw3-ge-1-3-0-311.net.ipartners.pl
>[157.25.3.1]
>  8   202 ms   172 ms   193 ms  fra-tr1-p0-1-1.gtsce.net [195.39.208.69]
>  9   239 ms   162 ms   183 ms  ge-3-2-0-0-zar1.fri.cw.net [166.63.204.109]
> 10   322 ms   180 ms   875 ms  so-4-0-0-dcr2.fra.cw.net [195.2.10.225]
> 11   595 ms   190 ms   197 ms  so-4-0-0-dcr1.amd.cw.net [195.2.10.149]
> 12   240 ms   577 ms   565 ms  so-4-0-0-bcr1.amd.cw.net [195.2.10.25]
> 13   202 ms   766 ms   203 ms  surfnet2.amd.cw.net [208.173.211.198]
> 14   206 ms   216 ms     *     AZ-500.XSR01.Amsterdam1A.surf.net
>[145.145.80.21]
> 15   199 ms   197 ms   534 ms  kncsw001-router.customer.surf.net
>[145.145.18.158]
> 16   192 ms   262 ms   193 ms  gi0-24.csw2-knams.wikimedia.org
>[145.97.32.29]
> 17   266 ms   205 ms   215 ms  rr.knams.wikimedia.org [145.97.39.155]
>
>That does NOT look italian at all. I'd rather bet my euros on Holland, if I
>was to make a guess. And it makes sense, because it's on the backbone. BTW,
>you get the very same result for "tracert pms.wikipedia.org" AND "tracert
>it.wikipedia.org" (!). So I guess the person talking about italian servers
>was simply poorly informed, because there is no such thing as an "italian
>server", not even for the italian edition. They can check with tracert if
>they are in doubt and update their information. One thing is true: both scn
>and it are on the same server, yet I cannot seem to understand how this can
>put them under the competence of the italian laws. We actually should all
>use the dutch laws, in instead. And if this is proved to be true, the whole
>copyright checking process on it.wiki might call for revisions. Not the
>it.wiki is special in this, I suppose many more editions may find themselves
>in muddy waters.
>
>
>
>>  So - can I or can't I have this particular picture of a Beatles single
>>
>>
>sleeve, considering that it is ok to put up on en.wiki?
>IMHO, whenever in doubt the answer should be "load it on commons". They are
>surely well away from italian lawmakers, because Italy is not on the main
>physical backbone and having a shared server there would end up in making a
>slower route for most users. Too bad that when you trace
>"commons.wikipedia.org" you get the very same result you got for all
>previously quoted editions. It's Holland, once again. So I am quite doubtful
>as per using IT or USA laws on it, too.
>
>I myself have sometimes been amazed from IT copyright checkers, too. They
>often quote the italian law in their policies. Now, how can italian laws
>apply to people who load content on a foreign server from a foreign country?
>That may apply only to italian residents (no matter on which edition they
>upload what), provided that we apply policies to single users and not to
>physical servers.
>
>I suppose the real problem is that we should have a global copyright policy
>stated and translated for it to be published on all servers as a part of the
>distributed UI on Betawiki "prior" to opening any new edition. This really
>is a job for lawyers, it cannot be done by taking guesses  since it impacts
>both on content management and on the risk of people being sued for
>copyright infringement. The most important thing to make clear is: who is
>subject to whose laws, and by what criteria one can objectively determine
>it. Once we get this clear, the rest is a pure matter of logics.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>B?rto
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>


from_name: William Allen Simpson

body:
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While trying to retrieve the URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_June_28&action=submit

The following error was encountered:

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Squid did not receive any data for this request.

Your cache administrator is nobody.
Generated Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:24:46 GMT by will.wikimedia.org (squid/2.5.STABLE13)


from_name: Wildrick Steele

subject: [Wikitech-l] StringFunctions

body:
Is there any chance StringFunctions will get implemented on Wikimedia wikis?
In the near future? At Wiktionary, we could use that stuff to work around
some very ugly code we have at the moment.

Cheers,
Wildrick
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Vildricianus


from_name: Jesus M. Gonzalez-Barahona

subject: [Wikitech-l] Some statistics I wish I had...

body:
Hi, Jeremy,

I'm supervising (just from an academic point of view) Felipe's work. We
have (I guess) enough disk space, and probably could get more if needed.
We have also some experience in analyzing libre (free, open source)
software projects (have a look at http://libresoft.urjc.es ), and
probably several of the techniques we're using for that could be applied
to analyzing wikipedia.

So, if you're interested, we could explore how to collaborate. For now,
we're using the database dumps for the analysis. From your message it
seems that you're spidering the content from the website, am I right?

Saludos,

	Jesus.

On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 11:36 -0500, Jeremy Dunck wrote:
> On 6/26/06, Felipe Ortega <glimmer_phoenix at yahoo.es> wrote:
> > In the past few weeks I' ve read a bunch of mail messages talking about what is precisely my first goal: extracting behavioral conclusions from a quantitative analysis of wikipedia database dumps in all languages.
> >
> > But, despite all my efforts, and some mails offering myself as contributor I have received no answer from Wikipedia Community. I only wanted to contribute in a very interesting area (I think) and I hope it could lead me to build an interesting thesis about this topic. I'm currently developing some scripts in Phyton that analyze database dumps.
> >
> > I wrote a paper with some preliminar results, if you may take a glance to it. I only ask for some collaboration from anyone involved with the project, because otherwise maybe I should simply think that all my efforts don' t bother anyone.
> >
>
> Felipe,
>   I'm a bachelor student at University of Texas at Dallas, also
> working on what I'm calling fine-grained statistics for Wikipedia,
> using python to interpret text from database dumps.  :)
>
>   I've been working on it off and on for almost a year.  The big
> problems for me has been disk space and wikitext parsing.  After
> fiddling for quite a while trying to make my own parser, I have
> finally broken down to using the HTML as rendered by MediaWiki, then
> using that as the basis for the rest.
>
>   My basic goal is to provide statistics for things such as "how many
> revisions has this piece of text survived" and similar, then render
> that information onto a reader's wikipedia browser page.  As a second
> goal, it'd be nice to find some combination of stats that suggest
> which bits of a page a more likely trustworthy.
>
>   How far have you gotten, and does it sound like we're on the same track?
>
>   Cheers,
>     Jeremy
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
--
-----
Jesus M. Gonzalez Barahona        | GSyC (DITTE)
Edificio Departamental II (ESCET) | jgb at gsyc.escet.urjc.es / jgb at computer.org
Universidad Rey Juan Carlos       | tel: +34 91 664 74 67
c/ Tulipan s/n                    | fax: +34 91 664 74 94
28933 Mostoles, Spain


subject: [Wikitech-l] Use of markup legal?

body:
On 6/27/06, Tommy Li <tommycli at ucla.edu> wrote:
> I'm developing a piece of software not connected with Wikipedia or
> Mediawiki. Is it legal to use the same markup system Mediawiki has?

If you're releasing it under the GPL, definitely.  Otherwise,
probably.  I shouldn't think MediaWiki's markup system is anywhere
near creative enough to merit copyright, particularly given the
interoperability concerns that would oppose such a copyright claim.


from_name: Jay R. Ashworth

subject: [Wikitech-l] Use of markup legal?

body:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 09:17:56PM -0400, Simetrical wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Tommy Li <tommycli at ucla.edu> wrote:
> > I'm developing a piece of software not connected with Wikipedia or
> > Mediawiki. Is it legal to use the same markup system Mediawiki has?
>
> If you're releasing it under the GPL, definitely.  Otherwise,
> probably.  I shouldn't think MediaWiki's markup system is anywhere
> near creative enough to merit copyright, particularly given the
> interoperability concerns that would oppose such a copyright claim.

I can't imagine that a language is copyrightable, and indeed, I think
some BASIC purveyor tried to press such a claim (or maybe some xBase
purveyor) and lost.

In any event, I can't see why anyone would see fit to complain; indeed,
I'm strongly considering implementing a subset of MWtext as a text
entry format for WebGUI; *having* to use HTML or their "smart" editor
gives me hives.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

     A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
     Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

     A: Top-posting.
     Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?


from_name: Rob Church

subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 27/06/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> By what definition of hold up?
> Yes it's does seem to be providing results faster than ever but they
> haven't stopped being low quality and nearly useless..

You mean the indexing's too out of date, or something else?

> The bug that
> where certain characters in the excerpt halt the display of more
> results still exists as well.

Is this known on BugZilla?

Rob Church


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:13:15PM -0400, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>                          searching for multiple words gives the union
> not the intersection,

I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm going off on a rant here... (;-)
but if the default for multi word searches *is* OR instead of the
generally expected AND, someone please confirm that for me so I can go
file a bug.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra at baylink.com
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

     A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
     Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

     A: Top-posting.
     Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 6/27/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm going off on a rant here... (;-)
> but if the default for multi word searches *is* OR instead of the
> generally expected AND, someone please confirm that for me so I can go
> file a bug.

"Hippopotamus" turns up search results, "cephalopod" turns up search
results, "hippopotamus cephalopod" turns up no results.  The search
appears to be intersection, not union, as expected.  When I tried
"hippopotamus cat", however, some of the excerpts didn't include both
words; I had to go to the article and search for the missing word to
verify that both were indeed present.


from_name: Gregory Maxwell

subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 6/27/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:13:15PM -0400, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> >                          searching for multiple words gives the union
> > not the intersection,
>
> I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm going off on a rant here... (;-)
> but if the default for multi word searches *is* OR instead of the
> generally expected AND, someone please confirm that for me so I can go
> file a bug.

It looks like I was wrong there, my apologies.


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 27/06/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 27/06/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > By what definition of hold up?
> > > Yes it's does seem to be providing results faster than ever but they
> > > haven't stopped being low quality and nearly useless..
> >
> > You mean the indexing's too out of date, or something else?
>
> The last index update seems to be somewhere between 10th and 20th May.
> Could be better.

We're aware of that problem. Brion's been working on improvements to
the dump process; once those are done, I suspect automation will be
adopted. When this happens, more frequent updates will be possible.

I've also quizzed him of late, and I am of the impression that better
indexing is on the agenda too.

> Meanwhile, could I request that redirects be deprioritised in search
> results? For example, search for "Couesnon". The first two matches are
> redirects to "Couesnon River", the actual article, which appears 3rd.

That's possible.

Rob Church


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 6/27/06, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> > I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm going off on a rant here... (;-)
> > but if the default for multi word searches *is* OR instead of the
> > generally expected AND, someone please confirm that for me so I can go
> > file a bug.
>
> "Hippopotamus" turns up search results, "cephalopod" turns up search
> results, "hippopotamus cephalopod" turns up no results.  The search
> appears to be intersection, not union, as expected.  When I tried
> "hippopotamus cat", however, some of the excerpts didn't include both
> words; I had to go to the article and search for the missing word to
> verify that both were indeed present.

I tested before making the claim in the first place, and the first
article that came up didn't include all the words... but it used to.
I'll go troll elsewhere. :(


subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
On 27/06/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Rob Church <robchur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Meanwhile, could I request that redirects be deprioritised in search
> > > results? For example, search for "Couesnon". The first two matches are
> > > redirects to "Couesnon River", the actual article, which appears 3rd.
> >
> > That's possible.
>
> Is it worth my bugzilla'ing?

I think it's been done. :)

Rob Church


body:
On 27/06/06, Steve Bennett <stevage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> > If there's any reasonable purpose served by editing the template,
> > there's no reason to hesitate.  If something puts too much load on the
> > servers, the devs will edit the software so that you can't do it or
> > it's not a problem; see, for instance, recategorizing templates (which
> > is handled in a job queue rather than being executed right away) or
> > transcluding templates in sigs (they're automatically substed).  Devs
> > handle the backend, don't worry about it.
>
> Could this be written up in red writing somewhere? It seems to be very
> common that non-devs tell each other not to do things because "it's
> bad for performance" etc.

Here's a quotable post, then.

Site operations and keep-alive stuff is our concern. "Our" refers to
the development team and the system administration team, but I lump it
all together for this. If something is *needed* in order to get on
with the encyclopaedia-writing, or the dictionary-making, then do it.
If it's unclean, let us know, and if there's an easier method we can
implement to help, we will.

Adopt common sense, of course. If it's plain something could cause
drastic problems, hold fire and check. But don't go running around
screaming "teh servers, teh servers!!!" as an excuse to not do stuff,
that's stupid.

Technical reasons not to do something will be met with technical
enforcement. This position has been upheld by Brion Vibber before, and
I have posted, including this, at least two messages to that effect to
this mailing list.

Rob Church


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] MySQL fulltext search

body:
I just read about an open-source MySQL plugin that enables fulltext
search on all MySQL table types:

http://sphinxsearch.com/

On the other hand, our current search seems to hold up nicely these days...

Just FYI,
Magnus