from_name: Oliver Pereira

subject: [WikiEN-l] Zxcvb is Lir

body:
On Tue, 13 May 2003, Oliver Pereira wrote:

> Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons] did, for a while, make the mistake of thinking that the
> IMDb was a reliable source of information

Ah. I've just read Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons]'s last e-mail to the list, where he says
that it was another user who added the "heart attack" statement. It was in
fact 204.39.225.151 who originally added it. And it was a user with a
similar IP address, 204.39.227.248, who stated in an edit summary, "even
IMDB lists it as a heart attack...and this is the bible for celebrity
information". I therefore retract my above statement and publically
apologise to Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons] for jumping to conclusions (or, rather,
believing another user's conclusions) about who it was.

> When its unreliability was pointed out, he attributed the claims about
> the cause of death to its sources.

The attribution was indeed done by Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons], under the psedonym Zxcvb,
so this part of my message still stands. I hope that clears things up a
bit.

Oliver

+-------------------------------------------+
| Oliver Pereira                            |
| Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science |
| University of Southampton                 |
| omp199 at ecs.soton.ac.uk                    |
+-------------------------------------------+


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: cprompt

subject: [WikiEN-l] JohnQ / MaryMary - the clitoris guy

body:
Anthere wrote:

>--- cprompt <cprompt at tmbg.org> wrote:
>
>
>>All concerned parties, be advised of my article
>>[[Peyronie disease]].
>>
>>My view is that the Wikipedia should not contain
>>pornography, but nudity
>>is okay. Some people may not be cool with the idea
>>of looking at nudity,
>>but they have just as much right to not "Click here
>>to see image
>>containing nudity" as they do to avoid other places
>>where they'd see
>>nudity (Playboy, porno sites, etc.) Nudity is okay
>>because it describes
>>how things really do look. Drawings should not be
>>considered watered
>>down photos. They're good at showing some details
>>that may not be
>>apparent in photographs. Photographs on the other
>>hand, show reality. I
>>think both are perfectly acceptable. Understanding
>>that certain people
>>are sensitive to seeing nudity, we should mask it
>>behind a link. But we
>>are not making an encyclopedia specifically for
>>grade schools, and we
>>are not making an encyclopedia for people who turn
>>red at the site of
>>genitalia. Individuals need to exercise control of
>>their viewing habits,
>>and schools and parents need to be aware of what
>>children are surfing
>>to. That's just not our job.
>>
>>
>
>Agreed ++.
>
>Should make the warning more obvious though. Bold or
>something equivalent.
>
>
Done! :-)


from_name: Adam

from_email: Adam

subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

body:
I have apoligized, on numerous occasions and via numerous channels of communication. I have apoligized both publicly and privately. I have apoligized both to the general community and to specific individuals.

I have even apoligized for specific behaviour which I felt was inappropriate but which the general community does not view as bannable behavior and which nobody has ever attacked me for and that several sysops frequently enage in without any condemnation; for example, swearing.

It would be appropriate, for those who argue that I am a vandal, to stop stating that I have refused to abide by wiki guidelines, that I have refused to apoligize, or that I have refused to admit that my behavior was inappropriate.

I would like to further note, that while my opponents my claim I am a vandal for referring to the people of "Minoa" (an allegedly fictitous empire), engaging in an edit war over the name of Christopher Columbus, referring to the Queen of England as Ms. Bowes-Lyon, and insisting that regime is a POV term...I must note, I have NEVER taken paragraphs of text inserted by any user and deleted them - the worst I have done is taken paragraphs of text and moved them.

Nor have I ever entered swearwords into an article or changed dates, names, people, places, or any other information in such a way as to render the article clearly fallacious. The closest allegation of this sort which was made against me was, "I don't see anything factually wrong with Lir's additions; but I'm certain there is some hidden POV which we will find upon further investigation."

I was banned for 1 week because when other users deleted my additions, leading to an edit war, I started swearing at them and making personal attacks. That was a very very long time ago, at a point in time where I was suffering from a nicotine addiction.

It is true that I violated my ban, first with one account and then another, but during all that time and all those thousands and thousands and thousands of edits, did I ever vandalize an article? Did I ever swear at anybody? In all those thousands of edits, did I ever do anything wrong besides being me, admitting to being me, writing on topics which only I have been working on, and use an identifiable OS/browser/IP?

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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from_name: Tony Wilson

subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes & some trivia

body:
Brion wrote: "I've been hearing a number of complaints recently about
similar behavior (not properly reloading after saves, in particular).
This sounds related to client-side caching .....  There may be a
difference in how the cache control headers are sent due to a recent
PHP upgrade.

I'm quite sure that there is a difference Brion. It started about .. oh
... maybe it was three or four weeks ago? I cleared my browser caches,
tried four or five different browsers, then cleared my caching firewall
machine. It came right back as soon as the caches started to
refill.Same deal on the office network (which runs a completely
different OS and browsers but has the same sort of firewall). I am 100%
sure that it didn't act this way in the past.

But it's no big deal (IMO). It's not something I'd put at the very top
of my sleep-deprived to-do list if I was you.

-----------

Someone suggested a script: IF {USERNAME <> "Lir"} THEN {SET STATUS =
"admin"}

Hell no! Do you people know how many different usernames Lir has? Under
his various aliases, our friend Adam would constitute a clear majority
of us all by himself!

Mind you, it probably wouldn't do too much harm: you'd just get massive
edit wars with Susan Mason reverting Vera Cruz, and Dietary Fibre
shouting at Zxcvb, and all of them voting different ways. :)

Tony Wilson
(Tannin)


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop Status - CatherineMunro

body:
--- artslave <artslave at usa.net> wrote:

> I've subscribed to the mailing list and looked
> through the archives, and
> looked over the admin guidelines.  Like others, I'm
> hesitant about banning
> IPs -- I'll follow more experienced admins' lead on
> that front, but I'll
> keep my eyes open for other opportunities to help.
>
> Thanks again!
> Catherine

Hi Catherine...

I hardly dare to ask, I have been sorry so many times
because of misleading pseudos...
Are you really a woman ? (if this question is not
considered too personal ?)

As for banning people (blocking IP and banning people
is not exactly the same notion), you may just do as
others do, just don't ban if you don't feel
confortable to do so. It is not a requirement at all.

You may follow other more gentle ways to help with
very annoying users, rather than just "banning" them
by a crude block.

I highly recommand reading the inspiring

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans_and_blocks

and http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikipediAhimsa

and to lay out any thoughts there

anthere

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

body:
--- Adam von [name omitted for privacy reasons] <cddvdlenscleaner at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have apoligized, on numerous occasions and via numerous channels
> of communication. I have apoligized both publicly and privately. I
> have apoligized both to the general community and to specific
> individuals.

The number of apologies is not a quantifier to true apology.
Sincerity is. Sincerity in apology is demonstrated by change in
behavior. One apology should have been enough.

> I have even apoligized for specific behaviour which I felt was
> inappropriate but which the general community does not view as
> bannable behavior and which nobody has ever attacked me for and
> that several sysops frequently enage in without any condemnation;
> for example, swearing.

Swearing is part of the human language for a reason, and it allows
for a fuller range of expression of human emotion. Swearing in a
contextual, constructive and meaningful way is generally never
frowned upon.

> It would be appropriate, for those who argue that I am a vandal, to
> stop stating that I have refused to abide by wiki guidelines, that
> I have refused to apoligize, or that I have refused to admit that
> my behavior was inappropriate.

It is inappropriate to tell other people what to do when you yourself
do not want other people telling you what to do.

> I would like to further note, that while my opponents my claim I am
> a vandal for referring to the people of "Minoa" (an allegedly
> fictitous empire), engaging in an edit war over the name of
> Christopher Columbus, referring to the Queen of England as Ms.
> Bowes-Lyon, and insisting that regime is a POV term...I must note,
> I have NEVER taken paragraphs of text inserted by any user and
> deleted them - the worst I have done is taken paragraphs of text
> and moved them.

I can take paragraphs of text and reorganize them to mean something
completely different than what was intended by the author. If
original meaning is retained, then that is fine. If original meaning
is altered, then it would have been better had those paragraphs been
cut out altogether.

> Nor have I ever entered swearwords into an article or changed
> dates, names, people, places, or any other information in such a
> way as to render the article clearly fallacious. The closest
> allegation of this sort which was made against me was, "I don't see
> anything factually wrong with Lir's additions; but I'm certain
> there is some hidden POV which we will find upon further
> investigation."

Except of course the names of the aforementioned Christopher Columbus
and Queen of England.
Truth and lies are not so much in what is written, but rather in what
is left unwritten. To have wholesomeness, a subject matter must be
complete.

> I was banned for 1 week because when other users deleted my
> additions, leading to an edit war, I started swearing at them and
> making personal attacks. That was a very very long time ago, at a
> point in time where I was suffering from a nicotine addiction.

A very long time ago? This project will still be here in 10 years.
(with a lot more articles). You'll be around. You may have a
completely different attitude about life then.

Your suffering from a nicotine addiction is not an excuse to engage
in belligerent behavior. We are not your counselors or medical
professionals. I would suggest that you specifically not engage in
working on the W until your personal issues have been resolved
satisfactorily.

Please do not interpret my last comment to mean that I am condemning
you for your ailments. We all face challenges of many sorts in our
life, from day-to-day stress to difficult childhoods to insufferable
co-workers (arrgghhh--Wew, feeling better already). It is my wish
that you would find healing and restfulness and clarity of thought
for yourself in your life. It is for that reason that I recommend you
lay off the Wiki since in and of itself it can cause stress and
confrontation and addictive behavior (we have a page about that
somewhere), and it may not be the best thing for you at this stage in
your life.

> It is true that I violated my ban, first with one account and then
> another, but during all that time and all those thousands and
> thousands and thousands of edits, did I ever vandalize an article?
> Did I ever swear at anybody? In all those thousands of edits, did I
> ever do anything wrong besides being me, admitting to being me,
> writing on topics which only I have been working on, and use an
> identifiable OS/browser/IP?

The fact that we could not trust the author meant that the articles
had to be scrutinized, and that means extra work and irritation and
often frustration. I am looking forward to the day when I see A. v.
[name omitted for privacy reasons] next to an edit and say to myself "Nothing to see here; must
be solid edit; moving on down the recent changes list."

Adam,

I have tried in the past to work with you, and I have often been at a
loss of what to feel about you. I am sure this emotion is echoed by
many of the people who make up this remarkable community.

I don't care a great deal about policies, etiquette and formalities.
What I do care about is people. I respect people, lend my ear to
their complaints and praise (it happened once, you know), and try to
get along.

It hasn't always been easy. I've had it rough in my life, and the
chip on my shoulder was always a sizeable boulder. But I made a
decision that even if people were not nice to me, I would be nice to
them. This was purely selfish, if you must know. I just felt better
when I wasn't blaming and hating and scheming and backstabbing. I
just did it for me. The end-result, though, is that the people that
now gather around me are nicer, friendlier, supportive, and
forgiving. (end of sermon)

I like this community. Zoe's quirky, Mav's ranting, Jimbo
non-committal, and Ed, well, he's Ed. And sometimes I read all the
post on the mailing list, and sometimes I just delete them all. And
sometimes I don't even go to the W for a few weeks. But all in all, I
like the people and the place.

So, now that you know where I'm coming from, here's my advice:

Take a break off the W, like 3 months. Rent some movies. Go to the
park and walk. Take photos of trees.
When you come back, talk to Jimbo. Tell him you'll behave and that
you want another shot. If he says no, respect his decision.

If he says yes, then act in a kind, courteous manner at all times.
Reference all material, maintain detachment, and think like a
historian.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


body:
--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I'm just uncomftorble with nudity in Wikipedia
> in general, although drawings are okay.

I too am not too keen on nudity.

I feel that an encyclopedia ofour caliber can really positively
impact the lives and education of younger people. By which I mean
anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't know how old that is,
but my guess is around 4 years old)

I would want to be able to send a 10 year old inquisitive mind to the
W without any reservation.

Besides, if someone wants to see adult nudity, I can give them a few
"juicy" links ;)
Just to demonstrate I'm not prude or anything.

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk

subject: [WikiEN-l] forgiveness of bans

body:
I muttered to myself here:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/bans_and_blocks

about unbanning people who've been "hard banned". "Hard bans" would include Lir,
DW, Helga, "142", possibly Zog, and no doubt others. I suggested that the best
option is to say that bans are forgiven after three consecutive months of good
behaviour - good behaviour in this case means:

* no coming back to Wikipedia under new pseudonyms, etc
* no threatening Wikipedia contributors

It's a simple strategy, with many benefits:
* If a banned user ignores the option of attaining forgiveness, then we're no worse
off. In fact we're better off, because the ban will be respected by people who would
not respect a ban with no possibility of reprieve.
* If a banned user is forgiven, and then immediately channels Satan and has to be
banned again, then we're better off, because we at least had three months of peace
and quiet.
* If a banned user is forgiven and turns into a model contributor, then we're much
better off - plus one good contributor, minus one soure of conflict.
* If a banned user stops trying to come back for three months, in order to be
forgiven, and finds a much better site than Wikipedia, decides Wikipedia is actually
irrelevant, and moves on, then everyone's better off, including the banned user.

I fail to see the benefit of requiring an apology. Such an apology, given under
duress, has no value. Only a freely given and sincerely meant apology can aid in
healing the wounds of conflicts past.

Three months seems a sufficient length of time for non-dwarfs to bear grudges, so I
commend this simple policy to the house. Or, failing that, the list.

-Martin "MyRedDice" Harper


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

body:
On 5/14/03 12:52 AM, "Adam von [name omitted for privacy reasons]" <cddvdlenscleaner at yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> It is true that I violated my ban, first with one account and then another,
> but during all that time and all those thousands and thousands and thousands
> of edits, did I ever vandalize an article? Did I ever swear at anybody? In all
> those thousands of edits, did I ever do anything wrong besides being me,
> admitting to being me, writing on topics which only I have been working on,
> and use an identifiable OS/browser/IP?

Yes. You continued to do the things that caused you to get banned in the
first place.

I'm not saying that you should have been banned, or need to still be banned,
or are a threat to Wikipedia, but it's certainly the case that you have not
demonstrated that you understand that there are reasons other than knee-jerk
fear and hatred that people don't want you to participate in Wikipedia.

For example: Do you remember when you continually edited other people's
comments to change their meaning? That was wrong.


body:
I think your idea to add a "disable browser cache" option as an interim
measure is an excellent one, Brion. For myself, I'm perfectly happy to
hit "reload" now and then, but I'm sure there are plenty of others that
it would be a considerable help to.

Tony Wilson
(Tannin)


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] forgiveness of bans

body:
Martin,

in principle, I am not opposed to making bans temporary and have suggested
doing so in the past. However, in cases where a user continues to be
obnoxious by creating fake accounts, sending nasty letters etc. *during
the ban*, I would think that the ban should not be lifted without an
apology and a promise to improve the behavior. Furthermore, the criteria
for re-banning a user who has been let back in after a ban has expired
should be less rigid (it is extremely hard to get a signed in user
banned); they should instead be considered "on probation".

In the case of Lir and DW at least, I would expect a public apology and an
admission of what they have done ("I have created the following fake
accounts: ...") before letting them back in, and I think we should be
reluctant even then. The handful of people out of 10000 who have been
banned over the last 2 years are not exactly models of social behavior or
good candidates for rehabilitation.

Regards,

Erik


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New server sort of online

body:
The English Wikipedia is now accessible via our new web server,
code-named Larousse. Until the domain name change goes through, the old
server will continue to do double-duty on the database and the web
stuff, and the new web-only server will be accessible for more thorough
real-user testing via http://larousse.wikipedia.org/ .

Caveats:

* Uploading has been temporarily disabled to keep files and database
from getting out of synch; once Larousse is more or less established in
the www. slot, we'll enable it there.

* TeX works, but there's the same synch problem as with uploads. No big
deal though, since they can be wiped and regenerated automatically. :)
So if you see missing equation images, don't worry, it's just temporary.

* There may still be other things oddly- or mis-configured that I
haven't found yet. :)

* There have been some reports of weirdness such as old revisions of
pages (even edit pages) being shown. It's not 100% clear what the
problem is; it may be related to browser/proxy caching of pages, and/or
broken database transaction freezing some connections in a state with
obsolete data. May or may not be fixed.

I'm not entirely clear on whether the DNS change is through; it may take
a bit to work its way fully through the system anyway. At some point,
though, Larousse will take over as www.wikipedia.org. Database downloads
and mailing list archives aren't yet moved over to larousse; they'll be
accessible in the meantime via pliny.wikipedia.org, with automatic
redirects from www.wikipedia.org.

And that's about it for the moment... I'm going to catch a few hours'
sleep and hope the rubble clears by morning. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

body:
I note that on several fronts you are still arguing. It is that habit of
arguing which is the real issue. Wikipedia has a number of conventions (so
many that only an addict could remember them all). A user will inevitably
violate them from time to time. What distinguishes you is that instead of
gritting your teeth and cursing a bit is that you then acually engage in a
fight. Like for example your insistance in the James I article. You were
right (in my opinion) but engaging in serious fussing over crap makes no
sense. (Of course it takes two).

Anything you did was colored by the fact you were editing in violation of a
ban (which gave everyone license to delete, revert and ignore. So right or
wrong the other user was always right. So you were in the wrong in each and
every dispute you engaged in after you were banned or started creating
clones.

Anyway the tone of your apology is rather argumentative promising more
arguement down the line. You joust (but not with real monsters).

Fred

From: Adam von [name omitted for privacy reasons] <cddvdlenscleaner at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

I have apoligized, on numerous occasions and via numerous channels of
communication. I have apoligized both publicly and privately. I have
apoligized both to the general community and to specific individuals.

I have even apoligized for specific behaviour which I felt was inappropriate
but which the general community does not view as bannable behavior and which
nobody has ever attacked me for and that several sysops frequently enage in
without any condemnation; for example, swearing.

It would be appropriate, for those who argue that I am a vandal, to stop
stating that I have refused to abide by wiki guidelines, that I have refused
to apoligize, or that I have refused to admit that my behavior was
inappropriate.

I would like to further note, that while my opponents my claim I am a vandal
for referring to the people of "Minoa" (an allegedly fictitous empire),
engaging in an edit war over the name of Christopher Columbus, referring to
the Queen of England as Ms. Bowes-Lyon, and insisting that regime is a POV
term...I must note, I have NEVER taken paragraphs of text inserted by any
user and deleted them - the worst I have done is taken paragraphs of text
and moved them.

Nor have I ever entered swearwords into an article or changed dates, names,
people, places, or any other information in such a way as to render the
article clearly fallacious. The closest allegation of this sort which was
made against me was, "I don't see anything factually wrong with Lir's
additions; but I'm certain there is some hidden POV which we will find upon
further investigation."

I was banned for 1 week because when other users deleted my additions,
leading to an edit war, I started swearing at them and making personal
attacks. That was a very very long time ago, at a point in time where I was
suffering from a nicotine addiction.

It is true that I violated my ban, first with one account and then another,
but during all that time and all those thousands and thousands and thousands
of edits, did I ever vandalize an article? Did I ever swear at anybody? In
all those thousands of edits, did I ever do anything wrong besides being me,
admitting to being me, writing on topics which only I have been working on,
and use an identifiable OS/browser/IP?

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com>  - Faster.
Easier. Bingo.

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from_name: Catherine Munro

body:
At 11:26 PM 5/13/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>I hardly dare to ask, I have been sorry so many times
>because of misleading pseudos...
>Are you really a woman ? (if this question is not
>considered too personal ?)

LOL --  yes, I'm really a woman, and yes, this is even my real name.  My
user page lists me as "mother / artist / programmer / role-playing gamer",
and that's all for real too -- I have a wonderful son and daughter that I
hope will have fun using and contributing to Wikipedia someday.  My
three-year-old son is already so used to interactive websites and DVDs that
he gets frustrated just WATCHING a movie -- he wants to be able to click
something, change something, make things happen!  Perhaps that's the nature
of three-year-olds and short attention spans, but I think it's good that he
doesn't just want a passive experience.  It's part of the reason that I've
become addicted to Wikipedia too.  I can't tell you how many other
error-laden websites I've visited that actually had me reaching for the
mouse to go click that "Edit This Page" link.....

I've occasionally wondered if it's been wise to use my real name as my
username, given how easily unpleasantness can arise at Wikipedia and
argumentative trolls can cause trouble for real people, but if people like
Brion Vibber can do so, I suppose I can too.  Just for my own curiosity,
would it be possible to change my username without creating a new account,
and retain my watchlist etc.?

Overall, I've been pleased with the interactions I've had here ... we're
all an expert in something.  I've had a few brief confusions with other
editors over British/American usage and a mistaken copyright issue, but
they were both settled swiftly and with courtesy -- I just wanted to add my
two cents that the WikiLove really does outweigh the negativity in my
experience -- we just don't talk about it nearly as much.

>You may follow other more gentle ways to help with
>very annoying users, rather than just "banning" them
>by a crude block.
>
>I highly recommand reading the inspiring
>
>http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans
>
>http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans_and_blocks
>
>and http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikipediAhimsa
>
>and to lay out any thoughts there

Thank you very much for the links, Anthere -- I haven't browsed the Meta
much, because I'm much more interested in real work than
meta-work.  ;)   But that gives me a better idea of the community's
previous thoughts on the issue.

Cheers,
Catherine


from_name: JFrost8401 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] sysop status

body:
I should like to request sysop status.

I believe that I have already been nominated by Tony Wilson (Tannin).

thanks

Jim Frost (aka User: Jimfbleak)

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subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

body:
Adam ..
> It is true that I violated my ban, first with one account and then another,
> but during all that time and all those thousands and thousands and thousands
> of edits, did I ever vandalize an article? Did I ever swear at anybody? In
> all those thousands of edits, did I ever do anything wrong besides being me,
> admitting to being me, writing on topics which only I have been working on,
> and use an identifiable OS/browser/IP?

Well, "being you" was not so much of a problem. Why did you misrepresent
yourself in the first place? Jimbo was always open for discussions, and so
were other members of this list. Heck, even I have emailed you a couple of
times. But no, you had to create "Vera Cruz" and "Susan Mason" to get back
in. Why? For what other reason than to avoid dealing with the conflicts
that were, in large part, caused by you?

The ironic part is that this, of all things, harmed your case more than
anything else you've done: After it was conclusively proven that you were
Vera Cruz, Jimbo declared that it was unlikely for you to get back in;
further, your appearance under multiple identities led users to speculate
that every petty vandal, every anonymous POV edit was yet another
incarnation of yourself. Had you not chosen to play that game in the first
place, such suspicions would never have arisen. You can't blame this
identity nonsense on nicotine addiction, you can't blame it on Zoe, it was
your choice, and I haven't seen an apology for it.

There were other things. You have been asked repeatedly to use the preview
function. I even hacked in a "Preview on top" feature because you asked me
to. Still, you continued to save your articles every second, causing
dozens of changes for just one edit. Example from a random article you
worked on:

# (cur) (last) . . M 08:15 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz
# (cur) (last) . . M 07:53 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz
# (cur) (last) . . M 07:49 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz
# (cur) (last) . . M 07:46 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz
# (cur) (last) . . M 07:45 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz
# (cur) (last) . . M 07:43 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz
# (cur) (last) . . M 07:42 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz
# (cur) (last) . . M 07:41 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz
# (cur) (last) . . M 07:40 Feb 3, 2003 . . Vera Cruz

Doing these kind of things initially can be forgiven. When people are
stubborn and refuse to listen to arguments, cause others trouble for their
own minor convenience, then we're getting into the territory where people
start getting annoyed. Again, for these kind of things you never
apologized -- instead it was the software that was at fault, or other
people who were not listening to your problems.

People have reached out to you. I have given you a long list of things
that you need to do to start working on Wikipedia again. It is only now
that I see you beginning to do these things. It's good that you are using
your real name, that's a start, so we don't have to play "guess Lir's
gender" anymore. I don't care particularly for a comprehensive apology,
but I would support your application for official re-entrance if you
pledged to abide by the following:

1) Use a single identity and stick to it.

2) Find a solution for your 40000 edits per page problem. I don't care if
you write your texts in a text editor, if you use preview or whatever -
just don't clutter the database, article history and recent changes with
needless noise.

3) Be nice to other contributors. That does not just mean "no swearing",
but also avoiding snappy remarks, acknowledging other people's
contributions and trying to work cooperatively. Wikilove, Wikiquette,
whatever you want to call it.

Three simple conditions, no? I am sure others have more complaints, but
Jimbo is a relaxed person. If you behave properly, he will probably let
you back in.

I do wonder why you care so much about Wikipedia, though. You would
probably be a high level noder on Everything2 by now ..

Regards,

Erik


body:
--- Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org> wrote:
> At 12:54 AM 5/14/03 -0700, Christopher wrote:
>
> >--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> >I feel that an encyclopedia ofour caliber can
> really positively
> >impact the lives and education of younger people.
> By which I mean
> >anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't know
> how old that is,
> >but my guess is around 4 years old)

your guess is even a bit pessimistic. Mine knew
sooner.

> >I would want to be able to send a 10 year old
> inquisitive mind to the
> >W without any reservation.

I had a though. There was talk last september with
Mirwin and others about how wikipedia could be used in
school in particular. We currently have two
identifiers for pict. The image, where the image is
displayed on the screen, and the media, which provides
a link (so allow giving a warning to readers)
Why not having a third qualifier, such as mediaA
(adult) which would provide a link. But the link would
not be ckickable (or visible whatever or displaying
another warning, or asking to enter "coucou" to check
whether the reader is over 6, whatever) depending on
checking a little box on your prefs ? or setting it by
default ?

__________________________________
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from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

body:
At 12:54 AM 5/14/03 -0700, Christopher wrote:

>--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Sorry, I'm just uncomftorble with nudity in Wikipedia
> > in general, although drawings are okay.
>
>I too am not too keen on nudity.

Whereas I don't think it's a big deal. It's appropriate in certain
circumstances, like taking a shower, getting a massage (and that
is not a euphemism), or sleeping. It's inappropriate in certain
others, including a business meeting or going outside when it's
snowing.

>I feel that an encyclopedia ofour caliber can really positively
>impact the lives and education of younger people. By which I mean
>anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't know how old that is,
>but my guess is around 4 years old)
>
>I would want to be able to send a 10 year old inquisitive mind to the
>W without any reservation.

So would I. I have no desire to drop anything that might be called
porn into the Wikipedia. But articles on anatomy--whether of the
knee or the vulva--benefit from illustrations.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [WikiEN-l] sysop status

body:
At 08:12 AM 5/14/03 -0400, Jim wrote:
>I should like to request sysop status.
>
>I believe that I have already been nominated by Tony Wilson (Tannin).
>
>thanks
>
>Jim Frost (aka User: Jimfbleak)
Seconded, if a second is needed.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


body:
--- Catherine Munro <artslave at usa.net> wrote:
> At 11:26 PM 5/13/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >I hardly dare to ask, I have been sorry so many
> times
> >because of misleading pseudos...
> >Are you really a woman ? (if this question is not
> >considered too personal ?)
>
> LOL --  yes, I'm really a woman, and yes, this is
> even my real name.  My
> user page lists me as "mother / artist / programmer
> / role-playing gamer",
> and that's all for real too --

Yo !!!!

You would not speak french by chance, no ?
If so, come over there, we need you (ok, I admit, I
need you, but in time, the others might discover they
need you too :-)))

I have a wonderful
> son and daughter that I
> hope will have fun using and contributing to
> Wikipedia someday.  My
> three-year-old son is already so used to interactive
> websites and DVDs that
> he gets frustrated just WATCHING a movie -- he wants
> to be able to click
> something, change something, make things happen!

Just the same. The kids knew how to handle a mouse
before they knew how to speak. We don't even have TV
so the computer availability is a permanent fight. My
son was very sad when I gave up Age of Empire for
Wikipedia. He says it is definitly less fun. With luck
he will change his mind later when the times come to
educate himself on female anatomy. I must admit I have
thought many times leaving him the room to edit an
article on his own. If only for free vandalism :-)

> Perhaps that's the nature
> of three-year-olds and short attention spans, but I
> think it's good that he
> doesn't just want a passive experience.  It's part
> of the reason that I've
> become addicted to Wikipedia too.  I can't tell you
> how many other
> error-laden websites I've visited that actually had
> me reaching for the
> mouse to go click that "Edit This Page" link.....

wikipediholic, yes I know
I put some [[]] everywhere in my dreams
big issue

> I've occasionally wondered if it's been wise to use
> my real name as my
> username, given how easily unpleasantness can arise
> at Wikipedia and
> argumentative trolls can cause trouble for real
> people, but if people like
> Brion Vibber can do so, I suppose I can too.  Just
> for my own curiosity,
> would it be possible to change my username without
> creating a new account,
> and retain my watchlist etc.?

When I have some doubts from time to time, I google my
pseudo, and then I have no more doubts...even though
it is a real word. Did you try ?

> Overall, I've been pleased with the interactions
> I've had here ... we're
> all an expert in something.  I've had a few brief
> confusions with other
> editors over British/American usage and a mistaken
> copyright issue, but
> they were both settled swiftly and with courtesy

Sure. There are so many rules and guidelines no one
can be expected to know all of them.
Hum... I do not know even half of them I guess :-)
But there is always someone to remind me
That also comes that the french rules or different
from the english rules, that does not help
but that is more fun :-)

> I just wanted to add my
> two cents that the WikiLove really does outweigh the
> negativity in my
> experience -- we just don't talk about it nearly as
> much.

That's a men world perhaps ? They don't have it so
easy to fall in sentimentalism.

> >You may follow other more gentle ways to help with
> >very annoying users, rather than just "banning"
> them
> >by a crude block.
> >
> >I highly recommand reading the inspiring
> >
> >http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans
> >
> >http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans_and_blocks
> >
> >and http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikipediAhimsa
> >
> >and to lay out any thoughts there
>
> Thank you very much for the links, Anthere -- I
> haven't browsed the Meta
> much, because I'm much more interested in real work
> than
> meta-work.  ;)   But that gives me a better idea of
> the community's
> previous thoughts on the issue.
>
> Cheers,
> Catherine

please do browse it Cat (may I ?)

But, please be aware that among these three links
- one is older, but permanently relevant
- The other ones are not "previous thoughts", they are
"current thoughts". I hope they inspire coming policy
(by coming, I mean in somehow...2 mn ?)

Meta is not *only* repository of old stuff. Don't be
fooled by the fact some move their old stuff and
irrelevant to wikipedia stuff.

Pleased to meet you, and my best to the sweet little
ones future readers and contributors

My youngest is 5 years today. I have a chocolate cake
with a spider on it (request) to make :-)

Ant

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from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
On 13 May 2003 10:14:34 -0700, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> gave
utterance to the following:

> On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 05:39, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
>> That happened to me once too, but I don't have a proxy (unless my ISP
>> has one for some reason).
>
> It's actually fairly common for ISPs to use transparent proxies to save
> money by moving a lot of duplicate web traffic to their internal network
> and thus reducing their Internet bandwidth usage.
>
> You wouldn't even know it was there, unless of course it went horribly
> wrong and started eating pages. :)
>
Or coughing up old pages 72 hours after I've uploaded a replacement, like
my ISP's broadband proxy does from time to time. Their support staff tried
to deny it existed at one point.
--
Richard Grevers
If at first you don't succeed change the rules.


from_name: Chuck Smith

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia lecture in Antwerpen / Vikipedia prelego en Antverpeno

body:
Fellow Wikipedians / Samvikipediistoj,

(Esperanto text below)

Just wanted to let you all know that I'll be lecturing
(in Esperanto) in Antwerpen, this Friday (16/5/2003)
at the Esperanto Center of Antwerpen at 20:15h.  If
you'd also like to come for dinner, show up at 18:30h.
 I'd imagine that a small contribution is acceptable
for the dinner.  If you plan to join us for dinner,
please reserve a place by writing to
financoj at fel.esperanto.be.  I plan to pass out
Esperanto brochures about Wikipedia, do these also
exist in Dutch/Flemish?

Directions: Exit Antwerpen central station in the
direction of "De Keyserlei".  Continue down this
avenue until you reach an intersection which crosses
an even wider avenue.  From there, go left until you
see a banner above the sidewalk with the word
Esperanto.  This is about a 15 minute walk.  The
address: Frankrijklei 140.

Mi simple volis sciigi al vi cxiuj ke mi prelegos (en
Esperanto) en Antverpeno cxi-vendrede (16/5/2003) cxe
la Esperanto-Centro de Antverpeno je la 20:15h.  Se vi
ankaux sxatus vespermangxi, venu je la 18:30h.  Mi
imagas ke estas akceptebla mangxi kontraux eta donaco.
 Se vi planas kunvespermangxi, rezervu lokon skribante
al financoj at fel.esperanto.be.  Mi ankaux planas
disdoni faldfoliojn pri Vikipedio en Esperanto, cxu
ekzistas ankaux faldfolioj en la flandra/nederlanda
pri Vikipedio?

Instrukcioj: La klubejo trovigxas en la centro de la
urbo. Vi forlasu la centran stacidomon en la direkton
"De Keyserlei". Vi lauiru tiun avenuon gxis krucxigxo
kun alia ecx pli largxa avenuo. Tie vi iros
maldekstren kaj vi jam estas sur la bona vojo. La
E?-centro trovigxas je la dekstra flanko kaj ekstere
super la trotuaro pendas banderolo kun la jubilea
simbolo kaj la vorto Esperanto. Entute vi bezonas
kvaronhoron da piedirado.  La adreso: Frankrijklei
140.

Best wishes / Bondezirojn,
Chuck Smith

=====
Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/
My homepage - http://www.amuzulo.net/
Enciklopedio - http://eo.wikipedia.org/

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] space beneath headings

body:
On Wed, 2003-05-14 at 08:10, tarquin wrote:
> The only one I can remember is that in tables (countries, elements,
> etc), we want *no* space.
>
> any others?
> because if not, we can resolve this problem with CSS:
> h1 , h2 etc { usual space }
> table h1 , table h2 etc { no space }

I would be terribly pleased to make this change. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Hmm...
Maybe we can flag certain links as containing nudity? Then, the link to
an actual image would not display, nor would the image load if a person
made a setting in their Preferences. Perhaps links to nudity could be
restricted so that they can only be referenced by a certain subdomain,
which schools could (probably) block fairly easily, regardless of a
person's preferences.
That's just an idea off the top of my head, I'm not sure it's any more
feasible than flagging certain articles to contain boilerplate text like
disclaimers.

Christopher Mahan wrote:

>--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry, I'm just uncomftorble with nudity in Wikipedia
>>in general, although drawings are okay.
>>
>>
>
>I too am not too keen on nudity.
>
>I feel that an encyclopedia ofour caliber can really positively
>impact the lives and education of younger people. By which I mean
>anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't know how old that is,
>but my guess is around 4 years old)
>
>I would want to be able to send a 10 year old inquisitive mind to the
>W without any reservation.
>
>Besides, if someone wants to see adult nudity, I can give them a few
>"juicy" links ;)
>Just to demonstrate I'm not prude or anything.
>
>


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] '''pace beneath headings'''

body:
Brion wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-05-14 at 08:10, tarquin wrote:
> > The only one I can remember is that in tables (countries, elements,=20
> > etc), we want *no* space.
> >=20
> > any others?
> > because if not, we can resolve this problem with CSS:
> > h1 , h2 etc { usual space }
> > table h1 , table h2 etc { no space }
>
> I would be terribly pleased to make this change. :)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

If you are going to change the behavior then please make normal headings
(outside of tables) have one half space following them. I don't like either a
full space or no space but I dislike the full space more for the country and
element articles (the whole reason to change it to begin with was to stop
people from doing HTML hacks to make compact psedo "headings";
'''Heading''''
).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

body:
Sometimes I READ wikipedia in my sleep and then, when
I wake up, I have to forget everything that I
"learned".

--- Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> wikipediholic, yes I know
> I put some [[]] everywhere in my dreams
> big issue

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body:
Hey, I didn't write that!

> > >--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
> > >I feel that an encyclopedia ofour caliber can
> > really positively
> > >impact the lives and education of younger people.
> > By which I mean
> > >anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't
> know
> > how old that is,
> > >but my guess is around 4 years old)

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body:
You mean the content is offensive? I think sexually
explicit material falls into a fundimentally different
category. Plus, the [[Christianity]] page doesn't say,
"Jesus Christ is our savior and he will eventualy come
back to smite all of the people who aren't good
christians" (sorry, I don't know much about
christianity, I'm jewish). All it says is different
opinions of different sects of christianity
(hopefully) and doesn't present any as fact. If
christianity is offensive, then so are half the
articles in wikipedia. Just think of World Book, the
current school encyclopedia almost everywhere. They
report on Christianity, but they don't contain
sexually explicit images. If we start to allow this,
then who knows how far it will snowball?

-LittleDan

--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> This should be part of a general category scheme,
> not a specific solution
> for images which are perceived as possibly offensive
> to a limited segment
> of the population. What if someone finds articles
> about Christianity
> offensive? Can they block them, too? Singling out
> the issue of sexually
> explicit material is not neutral.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

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subject: [WikiEN-l] space beneath headings

body:
What is that? What do you mean?

-LittleDan

--- tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:
> because if not, we can resolve this problem with
> CSS:
> h1 , h2 etc { usual space }
> table h1 , table h2 etc { no space }

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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Forrest Aldrich

subject: [Wikitech-l] WikiPedia use in other application...

body:
(newbie here, so excuse any ignorance in the wiki-ism's)

I want to set up a full documention base, using Wiki<something>, to
supplement my work as a Sysadmin.   I wonder if someone has done this
before - for example, from things of compile time flags, to system notes,
to upgrade instructions, etc. etc...  I see Wiki as a potentially good
application/tool for this.

Of course, my question is specific to the code used (phase3) in Wikipedia.

Thanks,
Forrest


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia for education

body:
For wikipedia to be an valid educational source, it
needs to have some kind of approval system. From what
I understand, this has been discussed since Day 1 of
Wikipedia, but I think it is time to impliment it. If
wikipedia is ever to be printed or used in schools, it
must be scrutinized and validated (or invalidated) on
an article-by-article basis.

-LittleDan

--- Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I feel that an encyclopedia ofour caliber can really
> positively
> impact the lives and education of younger people. By
> which I mean
> anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't know
> how old that is,
> but my guess is around 4 years old)
>
> I would want to be able to send a 10 year old
> inquisitive mind to the
> W without any reservation.

__________________________________
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http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] space beneath headings

body:
> (tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com>):
>
> So a quick question:
> 1. under what circumstances do we *definitely* need space between a
> heading an the following content?
> and
> 2. under what circumstances do we *definitely NOT*?
>
> The only one I can remember is that in tables (countries, elements,
> etc), we want *no* space.
>
> any others?
> because if not, we can resolve this problem with CSS:
> h1 , h2 etc { usual space }
> table h1 , table h2 etc { no space }

We should never have heading tags inside a table. Headings
should only be used for article structure, and styles should
be used for table cells. That said, the stylesheet should
determine the amount of space between a heading and its
following text, and whether or not there is a blank space
between them in the souce text shouldn't matter.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

body:
I don't see what's wrong with multiple consecutive
edits on one page. Sometimes I submit the page and
then I realise that I forgot to put in some
information, or I forget to preview.

-LittleDan

--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> 2) Find a solution for your 40000 edits per page
> problem. I don't care if
> you write your texts in a text editor, if you use
> preview or whatever -
> just don't clutter the database, article history and
> recent changes with
> needless noise.

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http://search.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

body:
Thanks to wikipedia, I know that the following
argument is invalid because of [[Appeal to pity]] (not
to mention I told everyone here to disregard my
defense of Adam}, I think Wikipedia has caused Adam
some emotional trauma, which may have been why he was
smoking. I think nicotene addition is just as much a
disease as alcoholism (which I think is a disease), as
should be considered drug addition. Adam had problems
with wikipedia so he turned to smoking.

-LittleDan

--- Adam von [name omitted for privacy reasons] <cddvdlenscleaner at yahoo.com>
<snip>
> I was banned for 1 week because when other users
> deleted my additions, leading to an edit war, I
> started swearing at them and making personal
> attacks. That was a very very long time ago, at a
> point in time where I was suffering from a nicotine
> addiction.
</snip>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] space beneath headings

body:
On Wed, 14 May 2003, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> What is that? What do you mean?

Making that kind of adjustment to the style sheet would mean that any
header that appears inside a table would have no space after it, while any
header that appears outside a table would have space after it, without any
need to manually specify it when writing the wiki page.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

> --- tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:
> > because if not, we can resolve this problem with
> > CSS:
> > h1 , h2 etc { usual space }
> > table h1 , table h2 etc { no space }


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia for education

body:
LittleDan wrote:
> For wikipedia to be an valid educational source, it
> needs to have some kind of approval system. From what
> I understand, this has been discussed since Day 1 of
> Wikipedia, but I think it is time to impliment it. If
> wikipedia is ever to be printed or used in schools, it
> must be scrutinized and validated (or invalidated) on
> an article-by-article basis.
>

Well in order to be "acceptable" in at least US public schools, Wikipedia
would have to dramatically censored. Sadly, state and local school boards in
the US have effectively censored the content of textbooks by not accepting
material that could possibly be offensive to a very long list of lobby groups
(both on the right and left of the political spectrum).

Until individual teachers in US public schools (possibly elsewhere) have a
much greater ability to choose their own textbooks and resource materials, I
don't foresee Wikipedia (as we know it) being used in any official capacity.

But private schools and colleges/universities present a tottally different
situation (professors have much greater freedom in their textbook/resource
choices). If we have any sort of "approval system" it should be geared toward
that audience.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Toby Bartels

body:
Tony Wilson wrote in part:

>Someone suggested a script: IF {USERNAME <> "Lir"} THEN {SET STATUS =
>"admin"}

>Hell no! Do you people know how many different usernames Lir has? Under
>his various aliases, our friend Adam would constitute a clear majority
>of us all by himself!

What we need is an IS_LIR flag in the user database.

Joke! ^_^

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
The Cunctator wrote:

>Fred Bauder wrote:

>>I oppose Jtdirl's nomination for the same reasons as Cunctator. Every
>>indication is that like 172 he will stongly engage both in historical
>>revisionism and abuse of other users.

>I just want to make it clear I'm not opposing Jtdirl's nomination. I'm just
>betting he'll use the sysop powers abusively.

I think it's good that some administrators really don't like each other.
It means that as Wikipedia factionalises, the admin cabal won't take sides.
As Fredbauder is an admin, so should 172 and Jtdirl be.
(Hell, this philosophy goes all the way back to LMS and Cunc.)

If an admin abuses their superpowers, then let their status be revoked.
But best to avoid prior restraint.

-- Toby


subject: [WikiEN-l] 172's sysop request and some random thoughts

body:
Ams80 wrote:

>While we're nominating people for sysop-hood I'd like to nominate Anthere,
>from what I've seen she has been an excellent contributor. In light of the
>below I'm not sure if she'd accept but I think it would be polite to ask.

I second the nomination.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] A vision for wiki syntax, documented

body:
Here's the URL:

<http://www.piclab.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Wikipedia_Text_Syntax>

A few points to note:

While the document may seem complex because it attempts to be
rigorously specified, the final syntax is actually simpler than
what we have now. For one thing, ALL HTML is forbidden; the things
we use it for now can be replaced by the major new features: table
syntax and styles. Half the document describes how we deal with
lists, which we are already doing, but which is hard to specify.

Styles, in particular, hide a lot of complexity. With a good
toolbox of style classes in the standard stylesheet, users can do
a lot of things by simply calling them by name without having to
know how they work. This document does not specify how particular
stylesheets get attached to particular documents--that too is an
implementation detail the user shouldn't have to deal with.

Another simplification is that link syntax is unified: they all
use "[[...]]" now, whether external or internal, and all use "|".

I came to agree with those who said that users would expect
quote marks for italic and bold to span input lines, so I allowed
that, and close them only at the end of paragraphs.

I'm not married to the blockquote thing--it's just a trial
baloon, but I think it would be useful.

Note that math equations are now integrated, rather than being
an add-on; this is so that styles can be applied to them as well.
Also, the "$$" syntax seemed more consistent with the rest of
the syntax, and will be familiar to TeXies.

So as I said, this is a vision. I invite comment and criticism.
But I think it's important to Wikipedia's future that we do a
good job of this.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>I feel that an encyclopedia of our caliber can really positively
>impact the lives and education of younger people. By which I mean
>anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't know how old that is,
>but my guess is around 4 years old)

I doubt that 4-year-olds can profitably read our text.
Still, we shouldn't bar them from reading, so your point is OK.

>I would want to be able to send a 10 year old inquisitive mind to the
>W without any reservation.

I would send a 10-year-old to [[en:Peyronie disease]] without reservation.

>Besides, if someone wants to see adult nudity, I can give them a few
>"juicy" links ;)
>Just to demonstrate I'm not prude or anything.

What good would that do the 10-year-old interested in Peyronie disease?
You may not be a prude, but you still equate nudity with pornography,
so you may as well be one.  I want to see pictures of Peyronie disease,
not bowlderised drawings (detailed drawings that aid understanding are OK),
nor irrelevant "juicy" porn just to demonstrate that you're not a prude.

-- Toby


subject: [Wikipedia-l] New server sort of online

body:
> (Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>):
>
> I'm not entirely clear on whether the DNS change is through;
> it may take a bit to work its way fully through the system anyway.

It doesn't appear to me that any DNS change was made: the
authoritative servers still point "www" to pliny.  Jason?

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
In my scenario, it would simply be documents -- searchable.  I don't know
if Wikipedia's stuff creates a better index against the database, though.

It would be nice to also include attachments to the wiki entries - say if I
wanted to include a patch diff or code snippet, or perhaps a pdf.

Forrest

At 07:59 PM 5/14/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 12:53:55PM -0400, Forrest Aldrich wrote:
> > (newbie here, so excuse any ignorance in the wiki-ism's)
> >
> > I want to set up a full documention base, using Wiki<something>, to
> > supplement my work as a Sysadmin.   I wonder if someone has done this
> > before - for example, from things of compile time flags, to system notes,
> > to upgrade instructions, etc. etc...  I see Wiki as a potentially good
> > application/tool for this.
> >
> > Of course, my question is specific to the code used (phase3) in Wikipedia.
>
>I'm not sure if our Wiki software is particularly good for that.
>OK, could someone please make summary of differences of ours vs. others
>Wikis ?
>
>Phase 3                                 Typical other wiki
>talk/user pages are completely separate talk/user pages are just normal pages
>math support                            none
>no subpages                             subpages
>good support for UTF-8                  some of them don't support
>anything but 8859. Yuck!
>
>What more ?
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] forgiveness of bans

body:
MyRedDice (Martin) wrote in part:

>I fail to see the benefit of requiring an apology. Such an apology, given under
>duress, has no value. Only a freely given and sincerely meant apology can aid in
>healing the wounds of conflicts past.

I agree that forcing an apology as such (must say "I'm sorry that I ...", etc)
is an invitation to insincerity and the valueless mouthing of words.
But I also think that it's important that, should somebody like Lir return,
this person should state what activities they will not do in future.

For example, suppose that a user (this example is no longer Lir, BTW)
says "Toby should be eliminated" and I interpret this as a death threat.
The user replies that they meant only that I should be kicked off Wikipedia,
but Jimbo bans them anyway for (in part) making a death threat on talk.
Requiring the user to say "I'm sorry that I threatened Toby's life."
is an invitation to gross insincerity when the user denied that they did so.
Rather, the user should say "I won't write personal comments about users
that can be interpreted as physical threats.".

This is, first, less personal (I don't need my own wounded pride healed)
since it doesn't mention me specifically; but also, it allows the user
to save face and continue to deny that they meant it as a threat.
It really doesn't matter at this point whether that's what they meant or not,
once they've gone through the rest of your outlines process.

Disclaimer: This example is drawn somewhat from actual events,
but I'm not suggesting that the user involved there is likely to do this.
That's irrelevant to the point, which is just to borrow a good example.

-- Toby


body:
Nobody's suggesting the drawings should be
bowdlerised. They all *should* be more detailed, and
most (if not all) drawings illustrating disease are
more detailed.

--- Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:
> What good would that do the 10-year-old interested
> in Peyronie disease?
> You may not be a prude, but you still equate nudity
> with pornography,
> so you may as well be one.  I want to see pictures
> of Peyronie disease,
> not bowlderised drawings (detailed drawings that aid
> understanding are OK),
> nor irrelevant "juicy" porn just to demonstrate that
> you're not a prude.
> -- Toby

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body:
You're missing MY point. From a relistic perspective,
sexually explicit images are in a different category
than articles describing christianity in Western
culture. I know it is POV, but I think it is
nessessary in a situation like this.

--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> You're missing my point. My point is that, from an
> NPOV perspective,
> sexually explicit content is no different than any
> other content. It may
> offend some people, it may be desired by other
> people. Singling out
> sexualy explicit content for filtering would be a
> POV decision on our
> part, as we would be explicitly supporting filtering
> in this instance, but
> in no other. If we implement any filtering, it
> should be applicable to all
> types of content.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik

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from_name: John Robinson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Jimfbleak for admin

body:
I'll second (third, tenth, whichever is appropriate, I read this in
digest mode) Jim Frost for sysop status; he does a lot of good work
here.

-Hephaestos


subject: [WikiEN-l] Endorcement of James Duffy for Admin

body:
Abe Sokolov (aka 172) is having email trouble right now so he asked to tell
the list that he supports Jtdirl's Admin application (as do I).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: tarquin

subject: [WikiEN-l] space beneath headings

body:
this issue has raised its head again on the manual of style page. And it
still bugs me that we're mixing up presentation with semantics.

recap: the curent situation is this:

== heading ==
Text: there will be little space between this and the heading

== heading ==

Text following a blank line. There will be a gap between this and the
heading

So a quick question:
1. under what circumstances do we *definitely* need space between a
heading an the following content?
and
2. under what circumstances do we *definitely NOT*?

The only one I can remember is that in tables (countries, elements,
etc), we want *no* space.

any others?
because if not, we can resolve this problem with CSS:
h1 , h2 etc { usual space }
table h1 , table h2 etc { no space }


subject: [Wikitech-l] space beneath headings


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] interlanguage links

body:
> > Brion Vibber wrote:
> >
> > >The code's still there (see
> > SpecialIntl.php etc), if
> > >anyone wants to work on cleaning it up and making
> > it production-ready that
> > >would be great.

That's my mess, I might have some time next week to cut it in shape ;-)

Everybody else is, of course, welcome!

Magnus
____________________________________________________________________________
Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail anmelden = 1qm Regenwald schuetzen! Helfen
Sie mit! Nutzen Sie den Serien-Testsieger. http://user.web.de/Regenwald


body:
> -+- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Sorry, I'm just uncomftorble with nudity in Wikipedia
>> in general, although drawings are okay.

> I too am not too keen on nudity.

> I feel that an encyclopedia ofour caliber can really positively
> impact the lives and education of younger people. By which I mean
> anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't know how old that is,
> but my guess is around 4 years old)

> I would want to be able to send a 10 year old inquisitive mind to the
> W without any reservation.

Your parenting methods are your own business. However, if nudity is
appropriate and informative in an article, it should be treated like any
other material addition. The display of nudity for educational purposes is
legal in almost every non-theocratic nation, including, as far as I can
tell, the United States.

The problem with the clitoris photo inserted by MaryMary was that it was
not particularly informative (the clitoris itself was barely visible),
that it looked like it was cropped from a porn picture, and that the
copyright status was unclear. This is why I objected to having it,
otherwise I would have insisted on adding at the very least a direct link
to the picture, stored on the Wikipedia server. A photo and a drawing are
far from the same thing, and if your 10 year old inquisitive mind wants to
know what a clitoris is, it helps tremendously to actually see a photo
thereof. Abstractions have advantages and disadvantages, usually, both are
required, especially for children.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>Nobody's suggesting the drawings should be
>bowdlerised. They all *should* be more detailed, and
>most (if not all) drawings illustrating disease are
>more detailed.

This wasn't clear to me from the preceding posts.
Why is a clear drawing inoffensive when a photograph offends?
(I have no idea, but then I have little idea
why the photo offends in the first place.)

As I mentioned, a detailed drawing would be a good idea.
Of course, it shouldn't *replace* a photograph -- how could it? --
but *complement* a photo.

-- Toby


from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] I have apoligized

body:
I would be interested in hearing what Adam considers
defacing my User page repeatedly in the span of one
evening, if it is not vandalism.

Zoe

--- Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Adam von [name omitted for privacy reasons] <cddvdlenscleaner at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > I have apoligized, on numerous occasions and via
> numerous channels
> > of communication. I have apoligized both publicly
> and privately. I
> > have apoligized both to the general community and
> to specific
> > individuals.
>
> The number of apologies is not a quantifier to true
> apology.
> Sincerity is. Sincerity in apology is demonstrated
> by change in
> behavior. One apology should have been enough.
>
> > I have even apoligized for specific behaviour
> which I felt was
> > inappropriate but which the general community does
> not view as
> > bannable behavior and which nobody has ever
> attacked me for and
> > that several sysops frequently enage in without
> any condemnation;
> > for example, swearing.
>
> Swearing is part of the human language for a reason,
> and it allows
> for a fuller range of expression of human emotion.
> Swearing in a
> contextual, constructive and meaningful way is
> generally never
> frowned upon.
>
> > It would be appropriate, for those who argue that
> I am a vandal, to
> > stop stating that I have refused to abide by wiki
> guidelines, that
> > I have refused to apoligize, or that I have
> refused to admit that
> > my behavior was inappropriate.
>
> It is inappropriate to tell other people what to do
> when you yourself
> do not want other people telling you what to do.
>
> > I would like to further note, that while my
> opponents my claim I am
> > a vandal for referring to the people of "Minoa"
> (an allegedly
> > fictitous empire), engaging in an edit war over
> the name of
> > Christopher Columbus, referring to the Queen of
> England as Ms.
> > Bowes-Lyon, and insisting that regime is a POV
> term...I must note,
> > I have NEVER taken paragraphs of text inserted by
> any user and
> > deleted them - the worst I have done is taken
> paragraphs of text
> > and moved them.
>
> I can take paragraphs of text and reorganize them to
> mean something
> completely different than what was intended by the
> author. If
> original meaning is retained, then that is fine. If
> original meaning
> is altered, then it would have been better had those
> paragraphs been
> cut out altogether.
>
>
> > Nor have I ever entered swearwords into an article
> or changed
> > dates, names, people, places, or any other
> information in such a
> > way as to render the article clearly fallacious.
> The closest
> > allegation of this sort which was made against me
> was, "I don't see
> > anything factually wrong with Lir's additions; but
> I'm certain
> > there is some hidden POV which we will find upon
> further
> > investigation."
>
> Except of course the names of the aforementioned
> Christopher Columbus
> and Queen of England.
> Truth and lies are not so much in what is written,
> but rather in what
> is left unwritten. To have wholesomeness, a subject
> matter must be
> complete.
>
> > I was banned for 1 week because when other users
> deleted my
> > additions, leading to an edit war, I started
> swearing at them and
> > making personal attacks. That was a very very long
> time ago, at a
> > point in time where I was suffering from a
> nicotine addiction.
>
> A very long time ago? This project will still be
> here in 10 years.
> (with a lot more articles). You'll be around. You
> may have a
> completely different attitude about life then.
>
> Your suffering from a nicotine addiction is not an
> excuse to engage
> in belligerent behavior. We are not your counselors
> or medical
> professionals. I would suggest that you specifically
> not engage in
> working on the W until your personal issues have
> been resolved
> satisfactorily.
>
> Please do not interpret my last comment to mean that
> I am condemning
> you for your ailments. We all face challenges of
> many sorts in our
> life, from day-to-day stress to difficult childhoods
> to insufferable
> co-workers (arrgghhh--Wew, feeling better already).
> It is my wish
> that you would find healing and restfulness and
> clarity of thought
> for yourself in your life. It is for that reason
> that I recommend you
> lay off the Wiki since in and of itself it can cause
> stress and
> confrontation and addictive behavior (we have a page
> about that
> somewhere), and it may not be the best thing for you
> at this stage in
> your life.
>
>
> > It is true that I violated my ban, first with one
> account and then
> > another, but during all that time and all those
> thousands and
> > thousands and thousands of edits, did I ever
> vandalize an article?
> > Did I ever swear at anybody? In all those
> thousands of edits, did I
> > ever do anything wrong besides being me, admitting
> to being me,
> > writing on topics which only I have been working
> on, and use an
> > identifiable OS/browser/IP?
>
> The fact that we could not trust the author meant
> that the articles
> had to be scrutinized, and that means extra work and
> irritation and
> often frustration. I am looking forward to the day
> when I see A. v.
> [name omitted for privacy reasons] next to an edit and say to myself "Nothing
> to see here; must
> be solid edit; moving on down the recent changes
> list."
>
> Adam,
>
> I have tried in the past to work with you, and I
> have often been at a
> loss of what to feel about you. I am sure this
> emotion is echoed by
> many of the people who make up this remarkable
> community.
>
> I don't care a great deal about policies, etiquette
> and formalities.
> What I do care about is people. I respect people,
> lend my ear to
> their complaints and praise (it happened once, you
> know), and try to
> get along.
>
> It hasn't always been easy. I've had it rough in my
> life, and the
> chip on my shoulder was always a sizeable boulder.
> But I made a
> decision that even if people were not nice to me, I
> would be nice to
> them. This was purely selfish, if you must know. I
> just felt better
> when I wasn't blaming and hating and scheming and
> backstabbing. I
> just did it for me. The end-result, though, is that
> the people that
> now gather around me are nicer, friendlier,
> supportive, and
> forgiving. (end of sermon)
>
> I like this community. Zoe's quirky, Mav's ranting,
> Jimbo
> non-committal, and Ed, well, he's Ed. And sometimes
> I read all the
> post on the mailing list, and sometimes I just
> delete them all. And
> sometimes I don't even go to the W for a few weeks.
> But all in all, I
> like the people and the place.
>
> So, now that you know where I'm coming from, here's
> my advice:
>
> Take a break off the W, like 3 months. Rent some
> movies. Go to the
> park and walk. Take photos of trees.
> When you come back, talk to Jimbo. Tell him you'll
> behave and that
> you want another shot. If he says no, respect his
> decision.
>
> If he says yes, then act in a kind, courteous manner
> at all times.
> Reference all material, maintain detachment, and
> think like a
> historian.
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> Christopher Mahan
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> 818.943.1850 cell
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
> __________________________________
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from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
> Hmm...
> Maybe we can flag certain links as containing nudity? Then, the link to
> an actual image would not display, nor would the image load if a person
> made a setting in their Preferences. Perhaps links to nudity could be
> restricted so that they can only be referenced by a certain subdomain,
> which schools could (probably) block fairly easily, regardless of a
> person's preferences.
> That's just an idea off the top of my head, I'm not sure it's any more
> feasible than flagging certain articles to contain boilerplate text like
> disclaimers.

This should be part of a general category scheme, not a specific solution
for images which are perceived as possibly offensive to a limited segment
of the population. What if someone finds articles about Christianity
offensive? Can they block them, too? Singling out the issue of sexually
explicit material is not neutral.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Richard Grevers wrote in part:

>Some information is suppressed for the "public good".

Hmm ... who here believes that suppressing anatomical photographs of genitals
is in fact in the "public good"?  I guess LittleDan -- who else?

>In fact the
>scope of information that is suppressed is one of the key determinants of
>whether we regard a particular political environment as being "free" or
>not.

I vote to keep Wikipedia "free". ^_^

-- Toby


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>The only forms of censorship Wikipedia should abide by are those demanded
>by United States law (or the respective local equivalents for the
>international Wikipedias).

The "international" (that is, non-English) Wikipedias
are also subject only to US and (I think) California law.
That's where they're located, after all.
(Although suggestions have been made in the past
to self-censor [[fr:]] and [[zh:]]
in order to prevent the governments of France and the PRC
from declaring it illegal to *view* them,
which isn't exactly the same thing.)

And Enciclopedia Libre is governed by Spanish law.

-- Toby


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Toby wrote:

>>I would send a 10-year-old to [[en:Peyronie disease]] without reservation.

>So long as this is not the only sexual information they see, as practiced
>by United States abstinence "education". Want to warp minds? Then let them
>only see pictures of sexual diseases and not of natural sexual organs when
>they're still young.

First of all, [[Peyronie disease]] is not primarily about sexuality.
It does touch on the topic, however, since the disease affects sex.
So yes, [[Penis]] should also have a picture of a healthy penis.
And [[Circumcision]] should have a picture of two for comparison!

>On topic: Whether or not we allow nudity should have nothing to do with
>whether it is in a negative or positive context (again with the obvious
>restriction that we have to follow laws, so illustrating [[pornography]]
>with public domain porn will, for the time being, remain impossible).

What law would that actually break?

-- Toby


subject: [Wikitech-l] space beneath headings

body:
> (tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com>):
>
> So we can kill off the "space after heading / no space after heading"
> distinction in wiki markup?
> If so -- yay!!!!

Well, eventually. I'm describing how the parser /should/ work.
It probably doesn't work that way at the moment.

> Daniel Mayer wrote:
> please make normal headings
> (outside of tables) have one half space following them.
>
> margin-bottom:1ex;
> should be about right :-)

That seems like a reasonable default.
--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
I'm not sure if this is presumptous for me to say,
being a sysop for only a couple months, but I think
sysops are really just trusted users. We're trusted
not to ruin protected pages, not to overuse SQL
queries, not to delete good pages, and not to
unneserily move pages. We're also trusted with the
right to ban simple vandals by IP adresses, but I
don't believe that that's a good idea. I've never seen
a repeat anonymous vandal, and I don't even know how
to ban them.

--- james duffy <jtdirl at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am more than a little surprised to find that I
> have nominated to be a
> sysop. It wasn't something that I ever sought. But I
> honoured to have been
> nominated.
>
> I know that I can be a little sharp sometimes :-),
> not to mention ironic.
> But I am also aware of the responsibilities that
> come with being a sysop. To
> the observation that I might abuse the
> responsibilities, that would not
> arise. I can be rigid in some ways in urging people
> to be factual and
> accurate (hence my involvement in some rows where I
> felt highest standards
> of accuracy, inpartiality and correctness were not
> being followed) but that
> also means that I would have a very strict adherence
> to the rules and
> responsibilities of being a sysop, and an absolute
> determination NOT in any
> way to personally abuse the responsibilities (for
> they are responsibilities,
> not power). Indeed to be honest, I have not seen any
> sysop abuse their
> powers as sysops in the time I have been on wiki.
> Becoming a sysop would be
> an honour and responsibility I would take very
> seriously.
>
> If I can serve wiki by being a sysop, I will be
> happy and honoured to do so.
>
> JT
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

references:
<BAE66692.2090%fredbaud@ctelco.net>
	<BAE6961B.91DF%cunctator@kband.com>
	<20030514210613.GB4088@math-rs-n01.ucr.edu>

body:
On Wed, 2003-05-14 at 17:06, Toby Bartels wrote:
> The Cunctator wrote:
>
> >Fred Bauder wrote:
>
> >>I oppose Jtdirl's nomination for the same reasons as Cunctator. Every
> >>indication is that like 172 he will stongly engage both in historical
> >>revisionism and abuse of other users.
>
> >I just want to make it clear I'm not opposing Jtdirl's nomination. I'm just
> >betting he'll use the sysop powers abusively.
>
> I think it's good that some administrators really don't like each other.
> It means that as Wikipedia factionalises, the admin cabal won't take sides.
> As Fredbauder is an admin, so should 172 and Jtdirl be.
> (Hell, this philosophy goes all the way back to LMS and Cunc.)
>
> If an admin abuses their superpowers, then let their status be revoked.
> But best to avoid prior restraint.

Yup.

I'm just hoping Wikipedia doesn't significantly factionalize--or rather,
stays in factions of one. I'm mildly disturbed by the way 172 invited
particular people to work on an entry ("Wanted: Tannin, Sluberstien, and
Jtdirl")http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Industrial_Revolution&action=history
because I don't see that kind of behavior boding well for the future.


body:
On Wed, 2003-05-14 at 17:57, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Richard-
> > Ok then, consider a parallel case: For many years, the Encyclopedia
> > Brittanica contained quite detailed information on the extraction of
> > opitates from poppies (it may still do for all I know, but the only copy I
> > have access to is 1970's) - probably enough for someone to be able to
> > replicate it. Or perhaps the case of chemical recipies for explosives -
> > should Wikipedia, in the interests of being NPOV and encyclopedic, include
> > these?
>
> Depends on whether they cross the threshold of potential legal liability.
>
> > Some information is suppressed for the "public good".
>
> This is wrong. Censorship will never increase the public good. Those who
> desire the information in question to do harm will find channels through
> which they can obtain it, since they are already willing to commit a
> crime. Meanwhile, those who need the information in order to prevent harm
> will have difficulty finding it.
>
> The only forms of censorship Wikipedia should abide by are those demanded
> by United States law (or the respective local equivalents for the
> international Wikipedias).

That is one view. As a practical matter, there's a lot of censorship
that, if removed, would lead to harm at least in the short term. The
less censorship, the more complicated the situation. And in a world with
some reliance on secrecy (such as of monetary information) there needs
to be some censorship.

I agree that long term and in general society would benefit from minimal
censorship, but at the same time I wouldn't want to be the one caught in
the bind of having information valuable to me being in the wrong hands.

All this is better discussed in Transparent Society, by the way.


from_name: Axel Boldt

body:
Regarding the issue of photographs of genitals, we can distinguish
three classes of people:
  * those who wish to view them
  * those who don't wish to view them
  * those who don't wish others to view them
The first two classes are perfectly accomodated by having the
photographs hidden behind links that unambiguously describe their
content; the third class does not deserve any accomodation.

Drawings are important in anatomy, because they allow to show hidden
and internal structures and allow to emphasize distinctions by using
separate colors. At the same time, they can be very misleading when not
accompanied by a real-world photo.

Personally, I was raised on biology-textbook drawings of the female
anatomy. They were terribly confusing: it was impossible to tell what
was inside and outside, what was visible and invisible, how big things
were. They made the first porn I got my hands on that much more
valuable.

Axel

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http://search.yahoo.com


body:
> Note: for those who find Lee's choice of background a little loud &
> painful, go here: http://www.squarefree.com/userstyles/make-bookmarklet.html
> to make yourself a bookmarklet which kills off backgrounds :-)
> (ain't CSS great!)

I think I accidentally deleted the stylsheet to my own wiki. I'll see if
I can't replace it with something reasonable. I really /like/ pink, though.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: cprompt

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia for education

body:
Isn't that what the Nupedia is for?
I think Nupedia's big draw was "reviewed content" and Wikipedia's was
"anyone can edit".

Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

>For wikipedia to be an valid educational source, it
>needs to have some kind of approval system. From what
>I understand, this has been discussed since Day 1 of
>Wikipedia, but I think it is time to impliment it. If
>wikipedia is ever to be printed or used in schools, it
>must be scrutinized and validated (or invalidated) on
>an article-by-article basis.
>
>-LittleDan
>
>--- Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I feel that an encyclopedia ofour caliber can really
>>positively
>>impact the lives and education of younger people. By
>>which I mean
>>anyone who can read and click a mouse (I don't know
>>how old that is,
>>but my guess is around 4 years old)
>>
>>I would want to be able to send a 10 year old
>>inquisitive mind to the
>>W without any reservation.
>>
>>


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia for education

body:
--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> For wikipedia to be an valid educational source, it
> needs to have some kind of approval system. From what
> I understand, this has been discussed since Day 1 of
> Wikipedia, but I think it is time to impliment it. If
> wikipedia is ever to be printed or used in schools, it
> must be scrutinized and validated (or invalidated) on
> an article-by-article basis.

you mean the way google results are?

Sorry for being flippant, but isn't our process, worldwide and by
real experts actually better and less prone to ceonsorship than
state-sponsored child-proofing committees?

=====
Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
818.943.1850 cell
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 12:53:55PM -0400, Forrest Aldrich wrote:
> (newbie here, so excuse any ignorance in the wiki-ism's)
>
> I want to set up a full documention base, using Wiki<something>, to
> supplement my work as a Sysadmin.   I wonder if someone has done this
> before - for example, from things of compile time flags, to system notes,
> to upgrade instructions, etc. etc...  I see Wiki as a potentially good
> application/tool for this.
>
> Of course, my question is specific to the code used (phase3) in Wikipedia.

I'm not sure if our Wiki software is particularly good for that.
OK, could someone please make summary of differences of ours vs. others Wikis ?

Phase 3					Typical other wiki
talk/user pages are completely separate	talk/user pages are just normal pages
math support				none
no subpages				subpages
good support for UTF-8			some of them don't support anything but 8859. Yuck!

What more ?


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
The Cuncator is concerned about the effect of a group of folks who share a
partisan point of view working together both to push that point of view and
as a block within Wikipedia's decision making process. Professional
qualifications and experience have nothing to do with it. Tannin, 172, and
Jtdirl exhibit a common pattern of partisan behavior, of left wing
historical revisionism, of deleting blocks of factual material that does not
meet their ideological criteria.

My method of dealing with a group like this is just to treat them for most
purposes as a single individual and accord them no more respect than I would
to any single individual with a couple of puppets dangling from his hands.

I distinctly remember a mob the members of which all had postgraduate
degrees engaging in infantile behavior during the Cultural Revolution. (They
thought Madam Mao was real cool, Of course after the Gang of Four was
arrested, a sudden case of collective amnesia set in). Being smart or
educated is not the issue, the problem is pushing a point of view agenda,
and playing politics within Wikipedia in pursuit of that agenda. Given the
past editing behavior of Tannin, 172, and Jtdirl I think that is what we can
expect in the future. A pattern of very ugly partisan behavior. I supported
banning Helga and certainly would never have considered her being a sysop. I
oppose left-wing historical revisionism for the same reasons I opposed
Helga's partisan efforts.

The holocaust was real, people who say it was real are telling the truth.
When I make a link to [[mass murder]] in an article on the [[communist
state]] I'm not making something up. The shame is on the folks who think
they can delete the link under some pretext. When I put a link to
[[Tiananmen Square]] in the aricle on [[China]] I'm not somehow a victim of
my inflated imagination. Those who would delete any mention of [[Tiananmen
Square]] from the article on [[China]] cover themselves with shame.

That said, as someone pointed out, being a sysop does not give you extra
power when you edit.  But under that logic Helga could very well be a sysop
in good standing at this point.

As to the title of this posting, "Please, no more personal attacks", it is
the viscious personal attacks these folks engaged in which created the issue
and opposition to them.

However, asking friends to work on an article like the [[industrial
revolution]]; gee, any of us ought to be able to ask folks whose work we
respect to work with us on any article.

The abuse comes in when anyone who happens to not accept the group product
tries to edit it and the whole bunch jumps on them. That would be
unacceptable and not worthy of respect.

Fred

> From: "Tony Wilson" <list at redhill.net.au>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:45:23 +1000
> To: "WikiEN" <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Please, no more personal attacks
>
> The Cunctator wrote:
>
>> I'm just hoping Wikipedia doesn't significantly factionalize--or rather,
>> stays in factions of one. I'm mildly disturbed by the way 172 invited
>> particular people to work on an entry ("Wanted: Tannin, Sluberstien, and
>> Jtdirl")http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Industrial_Revolutio
>> n&action=history
>> because I don't see that kind of behavior boding well for the future.
>
> Knock it off, Cunc.
>
> That's quite uncalled for, and I'm getting very tired of your
> relentless sniping on this list. If you had bothered to THINK about it
> for a momemt, you might have realised that the three people named were
> named for a good and obvious reason:
>
> I have a degree in that field and (before I went into business) used to
> teach it at tertiary level.
>
> Slrubenstein can also be presumed to have formal qualifications in the
> field (doubtless higher ones than mine) as he too teaches it at
> tertiary level
>
> Jtdirl has a phD in the field, and teaches it.
>
> You have a problem with professional expertise? Or are you just making
> trouble?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
Richard Grevers wrote in part:

>Well in the "free" United States since recent regulations, if someone
>posted information that certain agencies decided were an aid to terrorists,
>could not those agencies arrest Jimbo for refusing to disclose information
>on the user who posted it?

Yeah, I think that that is a danger here these days.
Luckily, pictures of clitorises aren't suspect to them yet
(although Ashcroft did cover up that statue of justice).

-- Toby


from_name: james duffy

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
I am more than a little surprised to find that I have nominated to be a
sysop. It wasn't something that I ever sought. But I honoured to have been
nominated.

I know that I can be a little sharp sometimes :-), not to mention ironic.
But I am also aware of the responsibilities that come with being a sysop. To
the observation that I might abuse the responsibilities, that would not
arise. I can be rigid in some ways in urging people to be factual and
accurate (hence my involvement in some rows where I felt highest standards
of accuracy, inpartiality and correctness were not being followed) but that
also means that I would have a very strict adherence to the rules and
responsibilities of being a sysop, and an absolute determination NOT in any
way to personally abuse the responsibilities (for they are responsibilities,
not power). Indeed to be honest, I have not seen any sysop abuse their
powers as sysops in the time I have been on wiki. Becoming a sysop would be
an honour and responsibility I would take very seriously.

If I can serve wiki by being a sysop, I will be happy and honoured to do so.

JT

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
--- Toby Bartels <toby+wikiedia at math.ucr.edu> wrote:
> The Cunctator wrote:
>
> >Fred Bauder wrote:
>
> >>I oppose Jtdirl's nomination for the same reasons
> as Cunctator. Every
> >>indication is that like 172 he will stongly engage
> both in historical
> >>revisionism and abuse of other users.
>
> >I just want to make it clear I'm not opposing
> Jtdirl's nomination. I'm just
> >betting he'll use the sysop powers abusively.
>
> I think it's good that some administrators really
> don't like each other.
> It means that as Wikipedia factionalises, the admin
> cabal won't take sides.

I second you here. It is *more* than good. It is
*very* important that some disagree.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


body:
> (newbie here, so excuse any ignorance in the wiki-ism's)

> I want to set up a full documention base, using Wiki<something>, to
> supplement my work as a Sysadmin.   I wonder if someone has done this
> before - for example, from things of compile time flags, to system notes,
> to upgrade instructions, etc. etc...  I see Wiki as a potentially good
> application/tool for this.

You may want to check out

http://openfacts.berlios.de

which is a Wikipedia/PhaseIII based open source knowledge base.
Alternatively, everything you need to set up your own can be found at

http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net

Regards,

Erik


body:
Taw-
> Phase 3					Typical other wiki
> talk/user pages are completely separate	talk/user pages are just normal
> pages math support				none
> no subpages				subpages

Incorrect. Wikipedia supports subpages which can be turned on by
namespace. On the English Wikipedia, they are turned on for the talk and
user namespaces.

Regards,

Erik