from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Survey about paid editing

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Guy Chapman aka JzG stated for the record:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:10:29 -0500, "Gregory Kohs"
> <thekohser at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering what the opinions of "influential Wikipedians" are regarding
>> this MSNBC poll that shows 40% of over a thousand people think like I do?
>
> I'm not influential, but my opinion is that you are beating the bloody
> smear where the dead horse once lay.

A stopped clock may be right twice a day, but it's still useless.

- --
 Sean Barrett     | A thunder of jets in an open sky,
 sean at epoptic.com | A streak of gray and a cheerful "Hi!"
                  | A loop, a whirl, a vertical climb,
                  | And once again you know it's time....
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list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Travis Derouin

subject: [Wikitech-l] some PNG thumbs discolored

body:
Hi,

We occassionally get a PNG file whose thumbnail is discolored:

ex:

http://www.wikihow.com/Template:Fair-Use

vs original image

http://www.wikihow.com/Image:Red_copyright_213.png

We're using libpng 1.2.8, I assume it's a libpng problem? This image
is an 8bit image it appears and when imagecreatetruecolor is used
instead of imagecreate, the result isn't correct either.

Any ideas?
Travis


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN:  [19721] trunk/phase3

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

simetrical at svn.wikimedia.org wrote:
> -table.gallery td.galleryheader {
> -	text-align: center;
> +table.gallery caption {
>  	font-weight: bold;
>  }

Won't this cause cached gallery captions to no longer appear centered
and bold when displayed with the new style sheet?

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
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from_name: Michael .

subject: [Wikitech-l] Using spaces in file urls

body:
Hi,

I'm currently working on deploying a mediawiki installation
(IIS/W2K3/MySQL5, if it matters) for the company I work for. I've got
everything pretty much done, and people are using the wiki already with
positive reviews. The problem I'm having at the moment is with file storage.
We don't want to upload all the files, as some files need to change
regularly and be stored on a network drive.

I've gotten far enough with this using meta and mediawiki.org, and have
enabled file:// links and a bunch of other stuff to make this posisble, even
changing the browsers so file:// links are supported from the site. The only
problem I've got left is what to do when there's a space in the file or
directory name being linked to.

For example, if a file is stored in p:\docs\some user documentation.doc, I
can't link to it in the wiki without setting $wgRawHtml and using the a
href=... tag directly inside html tags. Not a very secure option, and also
not very user-friendly. Substituting spaces for %20 doesn't work (IE renders
the %20 directly for file:// links, it seems), and using [blah] doesn't
work, becuase the first space gets regarded as the split between the url and
the title of the link to be displayed. And an a href tag just gets ignored,
despite my efforts to try and add it to the attribute whitelist.

I've been messing around for options for a few days now, and I've broken and
unbroken everything a few times, by screwing with stuff like Sanitize.php,
Linker.php, Parser.php, and so on. But despite being a long-term PHP
developer, I can't figure this code out despite my best efforts.

So I'd like to ask the community if they have any suggestions on how I can
achieve this? None of the code changes I made seemed to have any effect, so
I'm at a loss as to what to do next.

Thanks everyone for your time and any assistance you can offer.

Cheers,
Michael.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Neil Harris

subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] Moldavian

body:
Michael Noda wrote:
> On 2/1/07, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
>
>> geni wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/31/07, David Monniaux <David.Monniaux at free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> OTRS has received a request for this wiki to be taken down, stating that
>>>> Moldovian is just Romanian written in cyrillic, in a way imposed by the
>>>> Communists. (I'm not saying this is true, I have no opinion on the
>>>> issue, I'm just reporting.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not that simple see:
>>>
>>> [[Transnistria]]
>>>
>>>
>> At the very least it's a problematic name.  The Republic of Moldova
>> decrees that Latin is the official script of Moldovan, while their
>> breakaway republic of Transnitria decrees that it's Cyrillic.  If we're
>> hosting one in Cyrillic and giving it the "Moldovan" ISO language code,
>> we seem to be taking sides in that dispute---and what's more, taking
>> sides with the unrecognized breakaway republic and against the
>> internationally recognized nation.  That seems like an awkard position
>> to be taking.
>>
>
> Indeed.  I would say that the wiki should probably be taken down
> completely while things get straightened out.  What became of the
> proposal to make mo: a dual-character set mirror of ro:?
>
>
>
It didn't have the political will to make it happen, since neither side
wanted it. As I understand it, the ro: community does not consider the
Cyrillic script to be a valid script for the Romanian language, and the
mo: supporters do not consider Moldovan to be a form of the Romanian
language, but a distinct entity in its own right.

Given that neither side wants a dual-script solution, it's not worth
undertaking the technical work to add the transliteration support, which
would have needed the cooperation of both groups to make it work.

-- Neil


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] Moldavian


list: wikien-l

from_name: Rob

subject: [WikiEN-l] Most cunningly disguised spam yet?

body:
On 2/2/07, Gregory Kohs <thekohser at gmail.com> wrote:
> It looks like Guy Chapman is definitely reading this list and is active on
> Wikipedia --
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%24_London_Apartments&diff=next&oldid=105016776.
> He still hasn't answered my polite e-mails, though, so I have to conclude
> he's just being arrogant and rude.
>
> It also appears that the Stalinist hive-mind has a "flexible" definition of
> what constitutes "spam".  A few "nofollow" links to London apartment pages
> on a User page = spam.  Nearly 3,000 links to a for-profit Google AdSense
> funded operation that gets exemptions from "nofollow" and often points to
> wikis that have, at best, two active editors in the past month and/or less
> than 5 edits overall in a month = not spam.  Reporting on this "not spam" =
> blockable offense from an admin who ignores e-mails.
>
> If you Wikipedians are proud of this type of work, keep it up.  It only
> generates MORE of an urge to expose the hypocrisy.

If you mail was anything like this one, I'd ignore it too.

If you are currently blocked and wish to be unblocked, contact the
unblock mailing list at
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/unblock-en-l.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Inclusion criteria of one category

body:
On 2/2/07, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, I'd like to invite everybody here to get involved with the discussion in
> [[:Category talk:Kurdistan]]. There currently is a confusion on what the
> inclusion criteria supposed to be.
>
> At the moment unrelated articles such as airline companies, rivers,
> mountains, towns, cities, city squares, long dissolved countries, among
> other things are categorized under the same category.

Instituting subcategories would probably quell many objections.


subject: [Wikitech-l] table text is full

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Travis Derouin wrote:
> I figured out what the issue was. If the articles 2nd revision
> represents the page being moved, the rev_text_id is the same for the
> first 2 revisions.
>
> When compressOld iterates over the revisions, a
> ConcatenatedGzipHistoryBlob is initially set to the first text row,
> but the 2nd revision also points to the same text row and compressOld
> overwrites the ConcatenatedGzipHistoryBlob with a HistoryBlobStub.
>
> There was already a bug filed for this, I've updated it with more info
> and added a fix that works for us:
>
> http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4268

Thanks! Applied on trunk and 1.9 branch...

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Earle Martin

body:
On 01/02/07, Parker Peters <parkerpeters1002 at gmail.com> blathered:
> I'd prefer

I asked for opinions from the collective, not trolls, so your
preferences are irrelevant.

--
Earle Martin
            http://downlode.org/
http://purl.org/net/earlemartin/


subject: [Wikitech-l] table text is full

body:
Hi,

I figured out what the issue was. If the articles 2nd revision
represents the page being moved, the rev_text_id is the same for the
first 2 revisions.

When compressOld iterates over the revisions, a
ConcatenatedGzipHistoryBlob is initially set to the first text row,
but the 2nd revision also points to the same text row and compressOld
overwrites the ConcatenatedGzipHistoryBlob with a HistoryBlobStub.

There was already a bug filed for this, I've updated it with more info
and added a fix that works for us:

http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4268

Thanks.
Travis


from_name: Birgitte SB

subject: [Wikitech-l]  Extension:Labeled Section Transclusion

body:
I second this!

Birgitte SB

--- wikitech-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org wrote:

Thanks to the continual help and expertise of
User:Sanbeg, Labeled Section
Transclusion is now a full-fledged MediaWiki extension
that has been put to use
at external sites.

This extension allows selective transclusion of
marked-off sections of text on a
wiki-page. It is a great deal more flexible than
<onlyinclude> and <noinclude>, and will allow for many
unforseen future uses.

See:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Labeled_Section_Transclusion

Every type of functionality that was requested for
this extension has been
implemented, and various small issues have been ironed
out over the past few
months.

Labeled Section Transclusion was originally requested
as a feature for
Wikisource, and the current extension more than meets
Wikisource's needs.
It would be great if it could be applied live at the
Wikisource wikis.

Among other things, doing so would allow it to get
some heavy-duty testing,
since the uses for this extension might eventually go
beyond Wikisource.

Dovi Jacobs

____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail


list: commons-l

from_name: Brianna Laugher

subject: [Commons-l] Image libraries claiming their money from websites

body:
Hm, interesting article. Let us know if you get a reply!

cheers,
Brianna
user:pfctdayelise

On 02/02/07, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2002905,00.html
>
> No mention of Commons! I'll be emailing such a mention in; I hope you will too.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> Commons-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>


from_name: Carlos

subject: [Wikitech-l] Using spaces in file urls

body:
Michael . wrote:
[...]
>
> I've gotten far enough with this using meta and mediawiki.org, and have
> enabled file:// links and a bunch of other stuff to make this posisble, even
> changing the browsers so file:// links are supported from the site. The only
> problem I've got left is what to do when there's a space in the file or
> directory name being linked to.
>
> For example, if a file is stored in p:\docs\some user documentation.doc, I
> can't link to it in the wiki without setting $wgRawHtml and using the a
> href=... tag directly inside html tags. Not a very secure option, and also
> not very user-friendly. Substituting spaces for %20 doesn't work (IE renders
> the %20 directly for file:// links, it seems), and using [blah] doesn't
> work, becuase the first space gets regarded as the split between the url and
> the title of the link to be displayed. And an a href tag just gets ignored,
> despite my efforts to try and add it to the attribute whitelist.
>
> I've been messing around for options for a few days now, and I've broken and
> unbroken everything a few times, by screwing with stuff like Sanitize.php,
> Linker.php, Parser.php, and so on. But despite being a long-term PHP
> developer, I can't figure this code out despite my best efforts.
>
> So I'd like to ask the community if they have any suggestions on how I can
> achieve this? None of the code changes I made seemed to have any effect, so
> I'm at a loss as to what to do next.

Maybe you can create a simple markup extension, which transforms
something like '<mylink href="file://p:\docs\a b c">Link</mylink>' into
'Link' (or what the correct HTML
should be).

These extensions are very easy to build. The documentation is here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Extending_wiki_markup

Good luck.
--


list: wiktionary-l

from_name: Andrew Dunbar

subject: [Wiktionary-l] ru.wikt and empty templates

references:
<45BE8B37.7030006@edb.dk> <45BEF4D2.4070907@gmail.com>
	<op.tmzsq6tg2okkek@maadim.hsd1.co.comcast.net>
	<eprq3k$n2$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<op.tm2jbdjh2okkek@maadim.hsd1.co.comcast.net>

body:
On 2/1/07, Muke Tever <muke at frath.net> wrote:
> Minh Nguyen <mxn at zoomtown.com> wrote:
> >> Useful for checking if a word exists (i.e. spell check).
> >
> > But spell check presents suggestions for correcting your spelling.
>
> Advanced spell check does, certainly.  Not the kind you'd find in simple
> applications, where 'spell check' just highlights the words not in the
> dictionary--my IM client has this kind of spell check.  And the more
> advanced, the better the suggestions--primitive will go by degree-of-difference,
> more advanced will check transpositions and nearby letter keys, better will
> compare against the sounds the letters are trying to represent, and common
> misspellings.  Just because it's not top-of-the-line doesn't mean it's
> nonexistent.

It's all quite off-topic now. But all you need for a good spellchecker is a good
wordlist that you can use on existing spellcheck software. It's quite trivial to
export a list of titles from a mediawiki database to use for that exact
purpose.

Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)

> > You'd need some serious AI to *write* original definitions for tens of
> > thousands of words, and I'm not confident that a community of 500-some
> > can pull off such a huge feat without some outside help (a free-content
> > dictionary, for instance).
>
> It'd be silly to expect a bot to compose the entries.  But as you say, there's
> nothing to prevent the information from being imported, if free ones can be found.
> If they can bot enough to create so many blank templates, they can bot enough to
> fill them in.
>
>
>
>         *Muke!
> --
> website:     http://frath.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiktionary-l mailing list
> Wiktionary-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
>

--
http://linguaphile.sf.net


from_name: Tony Jacobs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

body:
>From: Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman at spamcop.net>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"
>Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:56:14 +0000
>
>On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:01:06 -0600, Rich Holton <richholton at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
> >Is there a cabal for those of us who aren't in any cabal?
>
>There Is No No Cabal Cabal
>
>Guy (JzG)
>--

Is that cabal associated with the Department of Redundancy Department?

GTB

_________________________________________________________________
Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count.
http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG


from_name: Thomas Dalton

body:
It looks like he's trying to improve the pagerank of the London
Apartments site, but since we put nofollow on external links, and he
isn't making disruptive edits, I don't see any need to do anything.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Autoconfirmed threshold

body:
> Oddly enough, nobody seems to get too excited about mid-posting.

People do object to excessive over quoting, which mid-posting can fall under.


from_name: Parker Peters

subject: [WikiEN-l] A Problem Mediation to consider

body:
Keitei,

I've just made a quick check and you appear, despite your comments to the
contrary, to be doing nothing about this troubling case as of the time I'm
sending this email to you. I'm CC'ing you just so that I'm sure it gets to
you with all haste.

- on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Beit_Hanoun_November_2006_incident,
user:Ideogram states that he is closing the mediation. He is not listed as a
mediator on the case.

- on the mediation page, no change at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-12-08_Beit_Hanoun_November_2006_incident

- On the mediation talk page, an anon has written something about the
finalization of the case, but no reaction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-12-08_Beit_Hanoun_November_2006_incident

- On Wikizach's talk page, no mention of this case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Wikizach

I understand that there are reasons people don't get to these things, but if
Keitei is incapacitated, one would hope another member of the Mediation
Cabal would stand up.

Parker

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Parker Peters <parkerpeters1002 at gmail.com>
Date: Feb 1, 2007 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] First Amendment? - a Problem Mediation to consider
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>

On 2/1/07, Keitei <nihthraefn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 1, 2007, at 10:31, Guettarda wrote:
>
> > On 2/1/07, Dan Collins <en.wp.st47 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2/1/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm < macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Looks like this needs to be reviewed. A conclusion should be made
> >>> based
> >>> upon
> >>> WP policy rather than the US constitution.
> >>>
> >>> Mgm
> >
> >
> > It's actually par for the course in MedCab cases.  The MedCab
> > provides for
> > informal mediation and a forum for discussion.  That's a useful
> > role, but
> > one that seems to be routinely ignored.  The role of a mediator
> > isn't to
> > judge the situation, but rather, to get people to talk and listen to
> > one-another.  So any "conclusion" beyond that made by the
> > participants in
> > inappropriate, regardless of whether it was based on the US
> > constitution or
> > Wikipedia policy.  The role of mediation is not to draw
> > conclusions.  That
> > an informal body, with no selection process, no official standing,
> > and no
> > oversight, should make "rulings" is mind-boggling.  Especially a
> > body that
> > seems, half the time, to be staffed by rank newbies who know little
> > about
> > policy.
>
> If mediators are acting as judges where they should not, we ask that
> you bring it up with the coordinators ([[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/
> Coordinators desk]]). From there, we try to convince said problem
> mediators that they have to mediate and not arbitrate, and if that
> doesn't work, they will be asked to resign from the case. Repeat
> problem mediators are asked not to take cases any longer.
>
> Of course this doesn't ensure that cases won't be total disasters,
> but the point is informal, fast, and not heavily regulated. Parties
> are encouraged to speak up if they don't think the mediator is
> helping though.
>
> --keitei (MedCab coordinator (along with Cowman109))
>

The mediator seems to think he is to act as a judge, keitei.

My analysis of the mediation goes back a bit further now that I've had some
time to look at it, and indicates some other serious problems with the case:

- the mediator did little to actually contact those relevant to the dispute.

- the mediator stated a time period at which he would "make [the] decision",
but did not discuss things with any other members, on the mediation page,
mediation talk page, article talk page, user talk pages, or anywhere else.

- comments questioning the mediator's impartiality because of his line of
work are in the history of the mediation, but they appear to have been
reverted rather than discussed openly. Any question of the mediator's
impartiality calls into question the mediation process.

Between this and a mediation "decision" that has nothing to do with
wikipedia policy or with the case at hand, and my little robot's making
"Danger, Will Robinson" noises...

Parker


from_name: Simetrical

subject:
[Wikitech-l] embedded links in UI messages (splitted from
	"Major flaws...")

body:
On 2/2/07, Daniel Arnold <arnomane at gmx.de> wrote:
> > See: http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8846 for the patchfile
> > against recent SVN version.
>
> Erm. I now tried quite a while in #mediawiki to get this really really small
> patch inside Mediawiki main line and I am really astonished by the lack of
> interest submitting something that harmless like this patch.
>
> I want to proceed fixing all the other 150 files too and:
> a)  I don't want to waste my time whith doing something wrong and then being
> told about it *after* I did edit all other files.
> b) I don't want to wait for every single file that long.
>
> Hey I want to improve MediaWiki and I am not someone who asks for getting svn
> access in order to make MediaWiki capable making coffe or tea.
>
> Folks you wonder why people don't fix the problems by themselves and submit
> poor bugzilla bug reports?
>
> This is the reason.

I eventually volunteered that I would commit it if you finished it,
and that offer still holds.  As for the general case, unfortunately,
yes, people ignoring patches is a problem, but there's not much that
can be done about that in a volunteer project.


from_name: Puppy

body:
Gregory Kohs wrote:
> <spammy rant removed>
I don't think you disguised your spam at all. It looked exactly like
spam to me. IMO, Guy is being sensible when he ignores or deletes emails
like this.
-kc-


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Picture copyrights - an interesting article

body:
Arwel Parry wrote:

>There's an interesting article on picture copyrights in todays'
>"Guardian", "A picture paints a thousand invoices"
>http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2002905,00.html
>
>It might be worth linking to this article when people complain about
>non-free images being deleted!
>
I think that those being asked for these ridiculous fees could have a
good case for criminal extortion.  The article says nothing about what
happens if these people resist the demands.

Ec


from_name: Rich Holton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

body:
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 00:57:07 +1030, "Alphax \(Wikipedia email\)"
> <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Agreed. I'm now a member of so many cabals, I lose track of them all...
>
> Like it :-)  I think we need a Cabalists' Cabal to keep track of all
> these cabals.

Is there a cabal for those of us who aren't in any cabal?

-Rich


subject: [Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [19721] trunk/phase3

body:
On 2/2/07, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Won't this cause cached gallery captions to no longer appear centered
> and bold when displayed with the new style sheet?

Er . . . right.  I didn't think of that.  Solution is to keep the old
style there temporarily, I guess?


from_name: Platonides

subject: [Wikitech-l] Using spaces in file urls

body:
Not a proper solution, but being a windows machine, you could use the
DOS name: c:\docume~1\username\mydocu~1\file.doc


from_name: Guettarda

body:
On 2/2/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
> Arwel Parry wrote:
>
> >There's an interesting article on picture copyrights in todays'
> >"Guardian", "A picture paints a thousand invoices"
> >http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2002905,00.html
> >
> >It might be worth linking to this article when people complain about
> >non-free images being deleted!
> >
> I think that those being asked for these ridiculous fees could have a
> good case for criminal extortion.  The article says nothing about what
> happens if these people resist the demands.

The article says that the rates are high, but within the normal range.  If
that's true, could on really make a case for extortion?

Ec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] Moldavian

body:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> There are those that want words like "irregardless" not to be included
> in dictionaries because from their puristic point of view it is an
> abomination. The Romanian wikipedians can not have their cake and eat
> it. Either they allow for the existence of a resource that is the
> http://mo.wikipedia.org or they allow for content in Cyrillic in the
> http://ro.wikipedia.org. When people argue that because of historical
> reasons Romanian is written in Cyrillic, the only correct reaction is:
> "Yes, right. So what?". The point being the existence of something
> cannot be denied because of this argument that they do not agree on
> political grounds and wish for it to not be there.
>
> The language commission would welcome a program that would convert from
> Latin to Cyrillic for the content of both the mo and ro wikipedia. In
> our opinion it would help and not hinder bringing the communities and it
> would probably isolate political bigots and their POV..
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
>

I suggested this several iterations earlier in the ro:/mo: debate. As I
said in my previous E-mail, no-one was interested in it.

For this to work, _all_ of the following have to happen:

* the ro: community has to agree to work with mo: proponents
* the mo: proponents have to agree to work with the ro: community
* both sides have to agree on the ro:/mo: integration as a desired solution
* both have to collaborate to create a _fully round-trippable_
transliteration mapping that both can be happy will not mangle text in
either script (this is hard, not least because several transliteration
standards already exist that do not seem to fulfil this criterion, and
it will be difficult to explain to people with a primarily cultural
agenda the technical reasons why their favourite transliteration cannot
be used) In the worst case, this might require a significantly complex
technical solution to resolve the possible ambiguities. In any case, it
will certainly need both sides to collaborate in extensive testing of
the system.
* the Foundation needs to be convinced that this solution is acceptable
* someone needs to integrate the transliteration method into the current
dual-script system
* special skins and virtual-hosting configuration will need to be set up
for the new ro:/mo: wiki
* both sides than need to get on with one another after the merge

Based on past observation of this debate, I think the chances of all of
the above happening are pretty close to zero.

Has anything happened to change this?

-- Neil


subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] Moldavian


from_name: Guy Chapman aka JzG

subject: [WikiEN-l] Survey about paid editing

body:
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:10:29 -0500, "Gregory Kohs"
<thekohser at gmail.com> wrote:

>I'm wondering what the opinions of "influential Wikipedians" are regarding
>this MSNBC poll that shows 40% of over a thousand people think like I do?

I'm not influential, but my opinion is that you are beating the bloody
smear where the dead horse once lay.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


subject: [WikiEN-l] Survey about paid editing

body:
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 20:33:51 +0000, <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>Wonder who supplied this exact wording? It has an odd, familiar ring.

Just so.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

body:
On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 00:57:07 +1030, "Alphax \(Wikipedia email\)"
<alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:

>Agreed. I'm now a member of so many cabals, I lose track of them all...

Like it :-)  I think we need a Cabalists' Cabal to keep track of all
these cabals.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] Moldavian

body:
Hoi,
There are those that want words like "irregardless" not to be included
in dictionaries because from their puristic point of view it is an
abomination. The Romanian wikipedians can not have their cake and eat
it. Either they allow for the existence of a resource that is the
http://mo.wikipedia.org or they allow for content in Cyrillic in the
http://ro.wikipedia.org. When people argue that because of historical
reasons Romanian is written in Cyrillic, the only correct reaction is:
"Yes, right. So what?". The point being the existence of something
cannot be denied because of this argument that they do not agree on
political grounds and wish for it to not be there.

The language commission would welcome a program that would convert from
Latin to Cyrillic for the content of both the mo and ro wikipedia. In
our opinion it would help and not hinder bringing the communities and it
would probably isolate political bigots and their POV..

Thanks,
    GerardM

Neil Harris schreef:
> Michael Noda wrote:
>
>> On 2/1/07, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> geni wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 1/31/07, David Monniaux <David.Monniaux at free.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> OTRS has received a request for this wiki to be taken down, stating that
>>>>> Moldovian is just Romanian written in cyrillic, in a way imposed by the
>>>>> Communists. (I'm not saying this is true, I have no opinion on the
>>>>> issue, I'm just reporting.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Not that simple see:
>>>>
>>>> [[Transnistria]]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> At the very least it's a problematic name.  The Republic of Moldova
>>> decrees that Latin is the official script of Moldovan, while their
>>> breakaway republic of Transnitria decrees that it's Cyrillic.  If we're
>>> hosting one in Cyrillic and giving it the "Moldovan" ISO language code,
>>> we seem to be taking sides in that dispute---and what's more, taking
>>> sides with the unrecognized breakaway republic and against the
>>> internationally recognized nation.  That seems like an awkard position
>>> to be taking.
>>>
>>>
>> Indeed.  I would say that the wiki should probably be taken down
>> completely while things get straightened out.  What became of the
>> proposal to make mo: a dual-character set mirror of ro:?
>>
>>
>>
>>
> It didn't have the political will to make it happen, since neither side
> wanted it. As I understand it, the ro: community does not consider the
> Cyrillic script to be a valid script for the Romanian language, and the
> mo: supporters do not consider Moldovan to be a form of the Romanian
> language, but a distinct entity in its own right.
>
> Given that neither side wants a dual-script solution, it's not worth
> undertaking the technical work to add the transliteration support, which
> would have needed the cooperation of both groups to make it work.
>
> -- Neil


subject: [Foundation-l] [Wikipedia-l] Moldavian


from_name: Daniel Arnold

body:
On Thursday 01 February 2007 14:09:03 Daniel Arnold wrote:
> I have now written a small patch that fixes this problem for
> MessagesEn.php. I used the {{MediaWiki:PAGE}} (thanks Platonides for the
> idea) syntax as it always points to the page in the default language which
> is desired in this case here.

> [...]

> See: http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8846 for the patchfile
> against recent SVN version.

Erm. I now tried quite a while in #mediawiki to get this really really small
patch inside Mediawiki main line and I am really astonished by the lack of
interest submitting something that harmless like this patch.

I want to proceed fixing all the other 150 files too and:
a)  I don't want to waste my time whith doing something wrong and then being
told about it *after* I did edit all other files.
b) I don't want to wait for every single file that long.

Hey I want to improve MediaWiki and I am not someone who asks for getting svn
access in order to make MediaWiki capable making coffe or tea.

Folks you wonder why people don't fix the problems by themselves and submit
poor bugzilla bug reports?

This is the reason.

Arnomane


subject: [WikiEN-l] Survey about paid editing

body:
Steve Bennett wrote:

>On 2/2/07, Gregory Kohs <thekohser at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm wondering what the opinions of "influential Wikipedians" are regarding
>>this MSNBC poll that shows 40% of over a thousand people think like I do?
>>
>>
>I think it ought to be trialled. We're all making a lot of assumptions
>about what would happen if paid editing were to occur. Why not do a
>trial on a couple of articles, and monitor but not interfere with the
>article over a period of a few months?
>
It would be totally unacceptable to take the position that an article
being worked on by a paid editor could not be edited by anyone else
during that time.

Ec


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Berto 'd Sera

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] "soviet" wikies (was "Important Issue to Hebrew
	Wikipedia and AdminAbuse")

body:
Hoi!

> Well, I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure if it's
> intended to be in response to my previous post.
Let's call it an indirect comment to the ukr-ru-ru_sib affair :) and more
generally to many an Eastern European wiki :)

Not all of them, obviously. Just to name two of them, I have the strong
impression that both Polish and Russian wikies are on a different level.
They work as real encyclopedias, not just as agit-prop points.

> I think that the vast majority of Wikipedians, of any language,
> are unaware of the pillars.
That's one of our worst problems. Punishing those who violate the pillars
may be a temporary solution, but in the end the only good move is to put in
a winning position those who comply. Impositions may frighten "bad people"
for a couple of days; convenience always captures faithful attention.

B?rto ?d S?ra
Personagi dl?ann 2006 p?r l?arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti voj?otri)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html


body:
Guettarda wrote:

>On 2/2/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Arwel Parry wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There's an interesting article on picture copyrights in todays'
>>>"Guardian", "A picture paints a thousand invoices"
>>>http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2002905,00.html
>>>
>>>It might be worth linking to this article when people complain about
>>>non-free images being deleted!
>>>
>>>
>>I think that those being asked for these ridiculous fees could have a
>>good case for criminal extortion.  The article says nothing about what
>>happens if these people resist the demands.
>>
>>
>The article says that the rates are high, but within the normal range.  If
>that's true, could on really make a case for extortion?
>
As the one victim said, she checked out what the rates would be for what
she used and it came out to ?440 for five years, but he was being asked
for ?1,300 for one month.  Attorney's fees?  One could always go to the
court for a motion to have the costs taxed according to the schedule
prescribed by the courts for such action.  How long does it take for a
lawyer to write a letter which he probably already has set up as a
template in which he can substitute the relevant details?

Companies like Corbis, Getty, et.al. know that the average little guy is
scared shitless at the idea of going to court about anything.  They can
use that to charge whatever they feel the guy will pay.

As long as the offending picture is removed from the site ASAP how far
will they be really be willing to go if you stonewall them?

Ec


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Yeah, of all the Wikis where I have heard of seemingly genuine admin
problems (that is, not just random users complaining about admins, but
things like people getting deadminned and banned for their opinions
and then the banning of anyone who protests), it seems most of them
are Eastern European.

Every time something like that came up on Meta:Requests for
Permissions, the steward response was always something like "solve
your problem internally", which has always worried me.

On 02/02/07, Berto 'd Sera <albertoserra at ukr.net> wrote:
> Hoi!
>
> > Well, I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure if it's
> > intended to be in response to my previous post.
> Let's call it an indirect comment to the ukr-ru-ru_sib affair :) and more
> generally to many an Eastern European wiki :)
>
> Not all of them, obviously. Just to name two of them, I have the strong
> impression that both Polish and Russian wikies are on a different level.
> They work as real encyclopedias, not just as agit-prop points.
>
> > I think that the vast majority of Wikipedians, of any language,
> > are unaware of the pillars.
> That's one of our worst problems. Punishing those who violate the pillars
> may be a temporary solution, but in the end the only good move is to put in
> a winning position those who comply. Impositions may frighten "bad people"
> for a couple of days; convenience always captures faithful attention.
>
> B?rto 'd S?ra
> Personagi dl'ann 2006 p?r l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti voj?otri)
> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.


from_name: · Firefoxman

body:
Wait, arn't you an inactive user?

On 2/2/07, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/2/07, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi, I'd like to invite everybody here to get involved with the
> discussion in
> > [[:Category talk:Kurdistan]]. There currently is a confusion on what the
> > inclusion criteria supposed to be.
> >
> > At the moment unrelated articles such as airline companies, rivers,
> > mountains, towns, cities, city squares, long dissolved countries, among
> > other things are categorized under the same category.
>
> Instituting subcategories would probably quell many objections.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
-Firefoxman


from_name: Rob Church

body:
On 02/02/07, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> I eventually volunteered that I would commit it if you finished it,
> and that offer still holds.  As for the general case, unfortunately,
> yes, people ignoring patches is a problem, but there's not much that
> can be done about that in a volunteer project.

The general pattern also often comes because patches affect issues
that are deceptively innocuous, when in fact they are very complex, or
because people don't have the time to review the stuff properly. The
last thing we want to do is introduce some sort of breakage to the
code base, and this is especially the case for newer committers.

Arnomane did the Right Thing; he posted the patch, and he kept
reminding people about it; persistence is the name of the game,
because persistence shows a willingness to improve the patch if
feedback is given, and persistence shows that the patch will be
maintained until it is applied.

I believe Leon has now committed the patch in question; pending some
sort of review of whether or not it works (how will we tell?), the
rest of the language files could be updated.

Rob Church


from_name: Cool Cat

body:
Do you have a scheme in mind?

     - Cool Cat

On 2/2/07, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/2/07, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi, I'd like to invite everybody here to get involved with the
> discussion in
> > [[:Category talk:Kurdistan]]. There currently is a confusion on what the
> > inclusion criteria supposed to be.
> >
> > At the moment unrelated articles such as airline companies, rivers,
> > mountains, towns, cities, city squares, long dissolved countries, among
> > other things are categorized under the same category.
>
> Instituting subcategories would probably quell many objections.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 02/02/07, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you have a scheme in mind?

For subcats? Crib the system that most political entities use, is my
advice - what do we do for countries? (I know Kurdistan isn't a
country, but conceptually it's comparable)

"Places in Kurdistan" would be a good first bet - towns, etc, in here.
Then "geographical features"? See what you have left after these.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

body:
On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:01:06 -0600, Rich Holton <richholton at gmail.com>
wrote:

>Is there a cabal for those of us who aren't in any cabal?

There Is No No Cabal Cabal

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ray Saintonge [mailto:saintonge at telus.net]
>Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 12:55 PM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Picture copyrights - an interesting article
>
>Arwel Parry wrote:
>
>>There's an interesting article on picture copyrights in todays'
>>"Guardian", "A picture paints a thousand invoices"
>>http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2002905,00.html
>>
>>It might be worth linking to this article when people complain about
>>non-free images being deleted!
>>
>I think that those being asked for these ridiculous fees could have a
>good case for criminal extortion.  The article says nothing about what
>happens if these people resist the demands.
>
>Ec

Probably pay the fee plus attorney's fees.

Fred


from_name: Samuel Klein

subject: [Foundation-l] Wingchunpedia using derivative of Wikipedia logo

body:
Taking action against wingchunpedia sounds dangerous.

--SJ

On Sat, 3 Feb 2007, habj wrote:

> Just found this website, where somebody is planning an wuju based
> encyclopaedia on wing chun (a Chinese martial art). They call it
> wingchunpedia. The logo looks... kind of familiar.
>
> http://www.wingchunpedia.org/
>
> Is this something that action should be taken against?
>
> /habj
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


from_name: geni

body:
On 2/1/07, Arwel Parry <arwel at cartref.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> There's an interesting article on picture copyrights in todays'
> "Guardian", "A picture paints a thousand invoices"
> http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2002905,00.html
>
> It might be worth linking to this article when people complain about
> non-free images being deleted!
>

I suspect the original story comes from this thread:

http://www.a4uforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=288282

--
geni


from_name: Neil Harris

body:
Cool Cat wrote:
> Do you have a scheme in mind?
>
>      - Cool Cat
>
> On 2/2/07, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2/2/07, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, I'd like to invite everybody here to get involved with the
>>>
>> discussion in
>>
>>> [[:Category talk:Kurdistan]]. There currently is a confusion on what the
>>> inclusion criteria supposed to be.
>>>
>>> At the moment unrelated articles such as airline companies, rivers,
>>> mountains, towns, cities, city squares, long dissolved countries, among
>>> other things are categorized under the same category.
>>>
>> Instituting subcategories would probably quell many objections.
>>

Presumably something like this, following the pattern of similar
sub-categories for many other countries:

[[Category:Cities in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Communications in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Economy of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Education in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Environment of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Geography of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Government of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Health in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:History of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Images of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Kurdistan stubs]]
[[Category:Kurdistan-related lists]]
[[Category:Kurdistani culture]]
[[Category:Kurdistani law]]
[[Category:Kurdistani media]]
[[Category:Kurdistani people]]
[[Category:Kurdistani portals]]
[[Category:Kurdistani society]]
[[Category:Military of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Organizations based in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Politics of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Provinces and territories of Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Religion in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Science and technology in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Sport in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Tourism in Kurdistan]]
[[Category:Transportation in Kurdistan]]

-- Neil


from_name: Raimond Spekking

subject: [Wikitech-l] SVN: [19729] trunk/extensions/inputbox/inputbox.php

body:
simetrical at svn.wikimedia.org schrieb:
> Revision: 19729
> Author:   simetrical
> Date:     2007-02-02 10:55:21 -0800 (Fri, 02 Feb 2007)
>
> Log Message:
> -----------
> * (bug 8795) Fix XHTML validity by quoting attribute
> * Use  for error message, and
 instead of

>
> Modified: trunk/extensions/inputbox/inputbox.php
> ===================================================================
> -		return "
 Input box: type not defined.";
> +		return '
Input box: type not defined.
';

color="error"? Sure? Not class="error" as mentioned in the log message?

Raymond.

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from_name: Matthew Flaschen

subject: [Wikitech-l] How to use MediaWiki API save or edit content

body:
Quoting Liang Chen <bigreat at gmail.com>:

> HI,
>     I read some doc of mediawiki api, and is able to get the content
> of one page or login. However I failed to use api.php?action=submit to
> save one page. It seems that the action not include the "submit".
> Could some body give a help?

Did you see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/API#Posting_Data_.2F_needs_major_editPage.php_rewrite
?

You need to get an edittoken first.

Huge disclaimer: I have not used this part of the API, and it is not even
certain to me from reading it that it is actually implemented!

Matt Flaschen


from_name: Ben Yates

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cafepress store redesign

body:
I just redesigned the layout of the cafepress store --
http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia .  Let me know what you think.

--
Ben Yates
Wikipedia blog - http://wikip.blogspot.com


from_name: brion at pobox.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki automated test run failure 2007-02-03

body:
An automated run of parserTests.php showed the following failures:

This is MediaWiki version 1.10alpha (r19736).

Reading tests from "maintenance/parserTests.txt"...
Reading tests from "extensions/Cite/citeParserTests.txt"...
Reading tests from "extensions/Poem/poemParserTests.txt"...

   2 previously passing test(s) now FAILING! :(
      * Gallery
      * <references> after <gallery> (bug 6164)

  18 still FAILING test(s) :(
      * URL-encoding in URL functions (single parameter)
      * URL-encoding in URL functions (multiple parameters)
      * TODO: Table security: embedded pipes (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-April/034637.html)
      * TODO: Link containing double-single-quotes '' (bug 4598)
      * TODO: message transform: <noinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)
      * TODO: message transform: <onlyinclude> in transcluded template (bug 4926)
      * BUG 1887, part 2: A <math> with a thumbnail- math enabled
      * TODO: HTML bullet list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)
      * TODO: HTML ordered list, unclosed tags (bug 5497)
      * TODO: HTML nested bullet list, open tags (bug 5497)
      * TODO: HTML nested ordered list, open tags (bug 5497)
      * TODO: Inline HTML vs wiki block nesting
      * TODO: Mixing markup for italics and bold
      * TODO: 5 quotes, code coverage +1 line
      * TODO: dt/dd/dl test
      * TODO: Images with the "|" character in the comment
      * TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, without trailing slash or name.
      * TODO: Parents of subpages, two levels up, with lots of extra trailing slashes.

Passed 487 of 507 tests (96.06%)... 20 tests failed!


from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiProjects overriding policy

body:
David Gerard wrote:
<snip>
> I'm a big fan of "who cares?" on naming conventions and a forest of
> redirects to help searchers.

Me too. About the only problem I have is when you get stuff like "X (Y
of Z)", and X, Y and Z don't have links to it.

> I think the last one I bothered voicing
> an opinion on in a LONG time was [[Ecma Office Open XML]], and only
> because I was in the middle of the media coverage. (Microsoft's big
> issue was the name - it was at [[Microsoft Office Open XML]] - and I
> think they were arguably correct, given the analogous examples of
> [[ECMAScript]] vs [[JavaScript]] vs [[JScript]]. So far it's been at
> the current title for a week and fingers crossed it stays there.)
>

... I was about to ask "why isn't ECMA uppercase" until I read [[ECMA]],
which helpfully pointed out that they've dis-abbreviated themselves
(hrm, who else did that?), so the lowercase is correct.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Survey about paid editing

body:
Cheney Shill wrote:
> Gregory Kohs <thekohser at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering what the opinions of "influential
>> Wikipedians" are regarding
>> this MSNBC poll that shows 40% of over a thousand people
>> think like I do?
>>
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16795533/
>
> There wasn't a vote for, "Can you phrase the question to be
> more misleading?"
>

I missed the "have you stopped beating your wife yet" vote, too.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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from_name: Sean Black

subject: [WikiEN-l] I go away for a few days and all this happens?

body:
Regardless, I don't understand why this unproductive, unhelpful, and
baiting post from a user with a history of trolling (to put it
lightly...) was allowed through.

~~Sean


body:
Earle Martin wrote:
> On 01/02/07, Parker Peters <parkerpeters1002 at gmail.com> blathered:
>> I'd prefer
>
> I asked for opinions from the collective, not trolls, so your
> preferences are irrelevant.
>
>

Your personal attacks are futile. You will be moderated.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

body:
Matthew Brown wrote:
> On 2/1/07, The Cunctator <cunctator at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Oh, groupthink is pretty strong. Discussions on the mailing list only
>> sometimes have an affect on the groupthink that takes place on
>> Wikipedia. E.g. AfD.
>
> Thus showing that en.wp is now way too big for there to be a single 'group'.
>

Agreed. I'm now a member of so many cabals, I lose track of them all...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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from_name: Parker Peters

body:
Because:

- It wasn't unproductive.
- It wasn't unhelpful.
- It wasn't baiting.

Now quit trying to troll me. I know you think it's a fun game to try to kick
people when they're down, but you're just proving what a troll you yourself
are.

Parker

On 2/2/07, Sean Black <smblac at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Regardless, I don't understand why this unproductive, unhelpful, and
> baiting post from a user with a history of trolling (to put it
> lightly...) was allowed through.
>
> ~~Sean
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:36:16 +0000, "Earle Martin"
> <wikipedia at downlode.org> wrote:
>
>>> I'm amazed at everything that happens when I just go away for a few days.
>
>> Nobody else is. Despite what you may think, the project does not
>> revolve around you.
>
> I thought "Parker" was supposed to be going away for ever?  He was on
> moderation for a while, why has the new address not been added to mod
> I wonder?
>

He IS on moderation, and if you continue to flame him, you will be too.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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references:
<QfhEY5TO+iwFFwM9@cartref.demon.co.uk> <45C39735.90005@telus.net>
	<47683e960702021219p6cfe09c2jf7dd6fec1adb58b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<45C3DA0C.5080701@telus.net>

body:
On 2/3/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> As the one victim said, she checked out what the rates would be for what
> she used and it came out to ?440 for five years, but he was being asked
> for ?1,300 for one month.  Attorney's fees?  One could always go to the
> court for a motion to have the costs taxed according to the schedule
> prescribed by the courts for such action.  How long does it take for a
> lawyer to write a letter which he probably already has set up as a
> template in which he can substitute the relevant details?
>
> Companies like Corbis, Getty, et.al. know that the average little guy is
> scared shitless at the idea of going to court about anything.  They can
> use that to charge whatever they feel the guy will pay.
>
> As long as the offending picture is removed from the site ASAP how far
> will they be really be willing to go if you stonewall them?
>
> Ec

likely as far as they legally can. If word got out that they don't
follow these things up the tactic would lose it's effectiveness. On
the other hand if you take people to court and make the payment stick
word will also get out and people will fold in future rather than risk
taking them on.

--
geni


from_name: Stephen Bain

references:
<epskjg$kvm$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<f30e42de0702010423h364a99b6oc179fa774bc8b359@mail.gmail.com>
	<fb7fdd9c0702010430x3b510dc5od9c9f2b76d66537d@mail.gmail.com>

body:
On 2/1/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't agree with you Stephen. The naming convention was created to avoid
> overly convoluted names. The places articles are located should be easy to
> link to.

In a series of many articles, *when the majority need disambiguation*,
how is it not easier (in terms of browsing and linking) to keep all
the titles in the same format, even the ones that don't need
disambiguating?

Surely it's easier to know that for a given set of articles - and this
is a clearly finite set of precisely 646 articles - the titles will
all be in the same format. If the purpose of naming conventions is to
ensure as much consistency as practicable, surely having all articles
in a given finite set titled in the same fashion is the most
consistent outcome possible?

The case would be different where only a small number of articles in
the set needed disambiguation, or where the majority of articles in
the set would be the primary disambiguation target (your US Presidents
example fits this description).

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Angela

body:
On 2/3/07, habj <sweetadelaide at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just found this website, where somebody is planning an wuju based
> encyclopaedia on wing chun (a Chinese martial art). They call it
> wingchunpedia. The logo looks... kind of familiar.
>
> http://www.wingchunpedia.org/
>
> Is this something that action should be taken against?

I'd suggest a polite email explaining to them that the Wikipedia logo
is not free content (a common misconception). However, the email on
their "contact" page (info at wingchunpedia.com) is bouncing.

Angela


from_name: Sage Ross

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia futurology

body:
For your light amusement, my attempt at predicting what Wikipedia will
be like in 5 years:

http://ragesossscholar.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-will-wikipedia-be-like-5-years.html

-Ragesoss


from_name: habj

body:
Just found this website, where somebody is planning an wuju based
encyclopaedia on wing chun (a Chinese martial art). They call it
wingchunpedia. The logo looks... kind of familiar.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/

Is this something that action should be taken against?

/habj


body:
2007/2/3, Samuel Klein <meta.sj at gmail.com>:
>
>
> Taking action against wingchunpedia sounds dangerous.
>

Virtual chain punches, heh?

/habj


body:
2007/2/3, Angela <beesley at gmail.com>:
>
>
> I'd suggest a polite email explaining to them that the Wikipedia logo
> is not free content (a common misconception). However, the email on
> their "contact" page (info at wingchunpedia.com) is bouncing.

Maybe this wingchunpedia was plans that never quite took off... the project
is related to the Wing Chun Archive, and there
http://www.wcarchive.com/html/contact.htm
is another contact address
info at wcarchive.com
where someone who feels more up to the task than me can have another shot.

Where or to whom should one optimally hand over this kind of task? Is this
mailing list the best place?

/habj


from_name: Joshua Brady

body:
Wasn't procmail invented for this reason? If you don't want to see a
persons email, just procmail it.

- Josh


from_name: Fastfission

body:
On 2/1/07, Arwel Parry <arwel at cartref.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> There's an interesting article on picture copyrights in todays'
> "Guardian", "A picture paints a thousand invoices"
> http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2002905,00.html
>
> It might be worth linking to this article when people complain about
> non-free images being deleted!

Well, but Wikimedia comes under the DMCA, which has more formalized ways of
providing for requests to remove copyrighted material, as well as a "safe
harbor" provision. So it's not quite as bad as the UK case, it seems.

(In any case, Corbis includes a number of images in their archives which are
not under copyright in the United States, but makes no distinction on their
image pages between these and images to which they own the copyright to. So
just because something is in Corbis doesn't mean it is a copyright issue,
necessarily, though it is usually pretty easy to tell which Corbis copyright
claims are bunk, i.e. claims to materials created by the US Government or
created in the 19th century).

FF


from_name: Steve Bennett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Survey about paid editing

body:
On 2/2/07, Gregory Kohs <thekohser at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm wondering what the opinions of "influential Wikipedians" are regarding
> this MSNBC poll that shows 40% of over a thousand people think like I do?

I think it ought to be trialled. We're all making a lot of assumptions
about what would happen if paid editing were to occur. Why not do a
trial on a couple of articles, and monitor but not interfere with the
article over a period of a few months?

Steve


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cafepress store redesign

body:
Ben Yates wrote:
> I just redesigned the layout of the cafepress store --
> http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia .  Let me know what you think.
>

I like it !
It is much software, and delicately use our blue, right ?
Which made me thought... is that possible to use the same WM blue for
the links under products in the main central page presenting the products ?

Ant


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
geni wrote:

>On 2/3/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>As the one victim said, she checked out what the rates would be for what
>>she used and it came out to ?440 for five years, but he was being asked
>>for ?1,300 for one month.  Attorney's fees?  One could always go to the
>>court for a motion to have the costs taxed according to the schedule
>>prescribed by the courts for such action.  How long does it take for a
>>lawyer to write a letter which he probably already has set up as a
>>template in which he can substitute the relevant details?
>>
>>Companies like Corbis, Getty, et.al. know that the average little guy is
>>scared shitless at the idea of going to court about anything.  They can
>>use that to charge whatever they feel the guy will pay.
>>
>>As long as the offending picture is removed from the site ASAP how far
>>will they be really be willing to go if you stonewall them?
>>
>>
>likely as far as they legally can. If word got out that they don't
>follow these things up the tactic would lose it's effectiveness. On
>the other hand if you take people to court and make the payment stick
>word will also get out and people will fold in future rather than risk
>taking them on.
>
Absolutely, and this is as much why I support the principle that it
should not be WMF that pursues these matters but individuals.  WMF needs
to play it by the book in a way that will safeguard the rights of both
the copyright owner and the apparent infringer.  This is not solely a
matter of self-preservation, but the application of distributed
liability as a tactic.

Sooner or later someone will call the companies' bluff.  I'm sure there
are enough stubborn people out there to do that, and willing to take the
risk that the payment would stick.  Who has the biggest risk?  The
individual with one offending picture has his risk limited to the ?2,000
or so demanded in the action; this effectively spreads the potentially
much broader liability.  The downside for the companies if they lose is
not restricted to that single case, but in the loss of credibility in
all cases; they may even pay the offender to accept a secret
out-of-court settlement. 8-)   A single army ant or a single piranha
rarely poses a serious danger.

The "Guardian" article notes that these databases are not sustainable,
that, except in a small high-end market segment, they will eventually be
squeezed out of the market by free alternatives.  I wonder how much
these massive resources will be worth in a bankruptcy sale.  ;-)

Ec


from_name: Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu-

body:
Does it have something to do with the fact that he changed e-mail
addresses after January 10, when he (presumably) was put on moderation
after the "bob" incident?

-- Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu-

Sean Black wrote:
> Regardless, I don't understand why this unproductive, unhelpful, and
> baiting post from a user with a history of trolling (to put it
> lightly...) was allowed through.
>
> ~~Sean
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>


body:
Stephen Bain wrote:

>On 2/3/07, Guettarda <guettarda at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The article says that the rates are high, but within the normal range.  If
>>that's true, could on really make a case for extortion?
>>
>>
>I would have to see the terms of the agreement, but I would imagine
>that Corbis/Getty etc. are offering forbearance [1] in addition to the
>licence for the image as their consideration, in exchange for the
>larger fee. That's not extortion, in fact it's quite common in
>commercial negotiations.
>--
>(1) "Forbearance", in this context, means refraining from exercising a
>right to take legal action. It often appears in the context of a debt
>agreement, for example if A loaned $1000 to B, and B didn't pay the
>money back when it was due, A might renegotiate the loan agreement and
>offer forbearance (from suing to enforce the debt) if B agreed to pay,
>say $200 extra within a certain amount of time.
>
This all assumes that there was a contract there in the first place.
The lawyer letters suggest that there wasn't.  Agreeing to a contract
after the fact may be poor judgement if it retroactively acknowledges a
liability, debt, guilt or wrongdoing of some kind.

Ec


body:
Fastfission wrote:

>On 2/1/07, Arwel Parry <arwel at cartref.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>There's an interesting article on picture copyrights in todays'
>>"Guardian", "A picture paints a thousand invoices"
>>http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2002905,00.html
>>
>>It might be worth linking to this article when people complain about
>>non-free images being deleted!
>>
>>
>Well, but Wikimedia comes under the DMCA, which has more formalized ways of
>providing for requests to remove copyrighted material, as well as a "safe
>harbor" provision. So it's not quite as bad as the UK case, it seems.
>
I fully agree that this gives us more wiggle room, and I believe that we
should be advocating for similar provisions in other countries as well.

>(In any case, Corbis includes a number of images in their archives which are
>not under copyright in the United States, but makes no distinction on their
>image pages between these and images to which they own the copyright to. So
>just because something is in Corbis doesn't mean it is a copyright issue,
>necessarily, though it is usually pretty easy to tell which Corbis copyright
>claims are bunk, i.e. claims to materials created by the US Government or
>created in the 19th century).
>
True enough, but I think that whether their claim to copyright on a
specific item is valid or pure buncombe is a different issue.  For the
purpose of this thread I'm willing to concede that they do have a legal
copyright as claimed.  This allows us to separate copyright validity
from unscrupulous methods of enforcing copyrights.

Ec


from_name: Liang Chen

body:
HI,
    I read some doc of mediawiki api, and is able to get the content
of one page or login. However I failed to use api.php?action=submit to
save one page. It seems that the action not include the "submit".
Could some body give a help?

THanks!

--
                     ---BiGreat---
               www.Liang-Chen.com


from_name: Cool Cat

body:
Firstly the issue is complicated.

I do want to point out few things:

   - "Kurdistan" and "Iraqi Kurdistan" are completely different entities,
   we should not confuse the two. Iraqi Kurdistan is indeed a state in the
   Iraqi federal system. Much like how Michigan is a part of the United States.
   I am focusing on "Kurdistan" and not "Iraqi Kurdistan"
   - There is no entity that claims Kurdistan to be a country. It is not
   a political entity in any sense.
   - We do not know the exact borders of Kurdistan and there is no single
   authority to make such a claim. There are numerous contradictory maps on the
   internet defining "Kurdistan" and some of those maps occupy a very vast area
   while others aren't as impressive. Basically the borders of Kurdistan is
   defined by the last person drawing them.

If you disagree with any of those three points feel free to say so.

I do not believe tagging cities towns and other human settlements under
"Kurdistan" is wise. That the [[Category:Cities by country]] scheme,
something incompatible with geographic regions.

If we are going to treat Kurdistan as a geographic region, we should not tag
cities and other settlements at all with Kurdistan since we categorize
cities by country not geographic region. We do not even categorize cities by
continent let alone a controversial and tiny (in comparison to continents)
geographic region like Kurdistan.

A list would be better than a category [[List of cities allegedly in
Kurdistan]] or something along the line (name I chose is probably not
perfect). I am not certain if we have something like [[List of cities in
Europe]] however.

The scheme proposed by Neil Harris is fine for countries but Kurdistan is
not a country as I stated above.

Any disagreements so far?

   - Cool Cat

On 2/3/07, Neil Harris <usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Cool Cat wrote:
> > Do you have a scheme in mind?
> >
> >      - Cool Cat
> >
> > On 2/2/07, Rob <gamaliel8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/2/07, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi, I'd like to invite everybody here to get involved with the
> >>>
> >> discussion in
> >>
> >>> [[:Category talk:Kurdistan]]. There currently is a confusion on what
> the
> >>> inclusion criteria supposed to be.
> >>>
> >>> At the moment unrelated articles such as airline companies, rivers,
> >>> mountains, towns, cities, city squares, long dissolved countries,
> among
> >>> other things are categorized under the same category.
> >>>
> >> Instituting subcategories would probably quell many objections.
> >>
>
> Presumably something like this, following the pattern of similar
> sub-categories for many other countries:
>
> [[Category:Cities in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Communications in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Economy of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Education in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Environment of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Geography of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Government of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Health in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:History of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Images of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Kurdistan stubs]]
> [[Category:Kurdistan-related lists]]
> [[Category:Kurdistani culture]]
> [[Category:Kurdistani law]]
> [[Category:Kurdistani media]]
> [[Category:Kurdistani people]]
> [[Category:Kurdistani portals]]
> [[Category:Kurdistani society]]
> [[Category:Military of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Organizations based in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Politics of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Provinces and territories of Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Religion in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Science and technology in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Sport in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Tourism in Kurdistan]]
> [[Category:Transportation in Kurdistan]]
>
> -- Neil
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


body:
HI,
   I tried prop=info & intokens=edit to get the edittoken, however,
not working, I don't know whether the action=query of api.php can get
the edittoken?

Also, I'm not sure whether it's actually implemented.

Thanks

On 2/3/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
> Quoting Liang Chen <bigreat at gmail.com>:
>
> > HI,
> >     I read some doc of mediawiki api, and is able to get the content
> > of one page or login. However I failed to use api.php?action=submit to
> > save one page. It seems that the action not include the "submit".
> > Could some body give a help?
>
> Did you see
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/API#Posting_Data_.2F_needs_major_editPage.php_rewrite
> ?
>
> You need to get an edittoken first.
>
> Huge disclaimer: I have not used this part of the API, and it is not even
> certain to me from reading it that it is actually implemented!
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

--
                     ---BiGreat---
               www.Liang-Chen.com


subject: [Foundation-l] [Announcement] Executive director

body:
Florence Devouard wrote:

>This will enable Brad to focus on developing the role of
>General Counsel, and addressing a backlog of complex legal questions the
>Foundation faces moving forward.
>
I need to congratulate you for the great efforts you have been making in
letting the plebeians know what is going on.

I must advise caution, however, in regards to what the job is doing to
the way you express yourself in English.  The clich?, "moving forward",
has become a frequent feature in the speech of one person whom many of
us would consider more prominent than he deserves.  I would hate to
believe that including Bushisms in your writing was in any way intended
to idolize that person. ;-)

Ec


body:
Bryan Derksen wrote:

>We could for example have [[Category:Cities in
>the United States]] and [[Category:Cities in the Pacific Ocean]]
>
Looking forward to global warming, are we? :-(

Ec


from_name: Bryan Derksen

body:
Cool Cat wrote:
> If we are going to treat Kurdistan as a geographic region, we should not tag
> cities and other settlements at all with Kurdistan since we categorize
> cities by country not geographic region.

In the _general_ case I disagree with this, there's no reason why cities
can't be categorized under both country-specific categories and
geographic categories. We could for example have [[Category:Cities in
the United States]] and [[Category:Cities in the Pacific Ocean]] and
have Honolulu be categorized under both of them (though this would
probably be done by categorizing it as [[Category:Cities in Hawaii]] and
then making it a subcategory of both). There may already be a system
like this, I don't know.

In this specific case, though, as you point out there are no
authoritative or widely-accepted borders for Kurdistan. So in this case
I don't believe a geographic category is wise. A Kurdistan category
should probably be limited to broader issues such as articles about the
effort to create/suppress such a country.

> We do not even categorize cities by
> continent let alone a controversial and tiny (in comparison to continents)
> geographic region like Kurdistan.

But there's no reason why we couldn't. Since cities are already
categorized by country or province and most countries or provinces are
located entirely on one continent it'd be quite easy to set up a
parallel continent-based category tree by subcategorizing those.

We also have "geographic region" categories for many old, extinct
countries such as [[Category:Babylonia]].

> A list would be better than a category [[List of cities allegedly in
> Kurdistan]] or something along the line (name I chose is probably not
> perfect).

This would be better because each entry could provide the sources and
support for that particular city's inclusion or exclusion.

> The scheme proposed by Neil Harris is fine for countries but Kurdistan is
> not a country as I stated above.

Some of the categories look okay to me, but a lot of them don't make
sense without the sort of unity that a real country has. Wouldn't
"Government of Kurdistan" include the governments of Turkey, Iraq and
Iran, and possibly others? That would be hard to make sense of.


body:
Tariq,

I "changed" email addresses because I was told that the database tables
related to my account were beyond repair and had to be deleted. This was the
whole cause of the "bob" incident, despite whatever sinister motives you
want to try to read into a problem purely created by a data storage medium
somewhere going bad.

Are you having fun trying to troll me?

Parker

On 2/3/07, Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu- <tariqabjotu at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does it have something to do with the fact that he changed e-mail
> addresses after January 10, when he (presumably) was put on moderation
> after the "bob" incident?
>
> -- Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu-
>
> Sean Black wrote:
> > Regardless, I don't understand why this unproductive, unhelpful, and
> > baiting post from a user with a history of trolling (to put it
> > lightly...) was allowed through.
> >
> > ~~Sean
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Mark Ryan

body:
"Moderation" = "we screen the person's emails and if they aren't up to
scratch we reject them". Not "we make the person go away forever",
though if their emails are consistently substandard then that's what
the ultimate effect is.

~Mark Ryan

On 02/02/07, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:36:16 +0000, "Earle Martin"
> > <wikipedia at downlode.org> wrote:
> >
> >>> I'm amazed at everything that happens when I just go away for a few days.
> >
> >> Nobody else is. Despite what you may think, the project does not
> >> revolve around you.
> >
> > I thought "Parker" was supposed to be going away for ever?  He was on
> > moderation for a while, why has the new address not been added to mod
> > I wonder?
> >
>
> He IS on moderation, and if you continue to flame him, you will be too.
>
> --
> Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
> "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
> Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>


from_name: Kurt Maxwell Weber

body:
On Saturday 03 February 2007 13:25, David Gerard wrote:
> On 03/02/07, Parker Peters <parkerpeters1002 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Now quit trying to troll me. I know you think it's a fun game to try to
> > kick people when they're down, but you're just proving what a troll you
> > yourself are.
>
> Don't push it.

Well, he's right.

All he does is make a simple observation on how things have picked up and for
no reason everyone jumps on his throat for it.

--
Kurt Weber
<kmw at armory.com>


body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Bryan Derksen wrote:
>
>> We could for example have [[Category:Cities in
>> the United States]] and [[Category:Cities in the Pacific Ocean]]
>>
> Looking forward to global warming, are we? :-(

I'm a Canadian in the depths of winter, so yes. :)

(Not sure how else to phrase "cities located within the geographical
boundaries of the Pacific Ocean" in a shorter manner, actually)


from_name: Ilmari Karonen

body:
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
> charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com wrote:
>> I have to say that the WikiProject Go would dearly like to override
>> the policy on Japanese names, because the name order used in 40 years
>> or more of go literature in English has used Japanese name order.
>
> So... let them? Will the servers collapse if OH MY GOODNESS NOT
> EVERYTHING IS THE SAME?!!!

Names of people tend to be somewhat trickier, though, in that there's
usually more than one interest group involved.  The canonical example of
this is probably diacritics in the names of ice hockey players: The
hockey wikiproject insists (or did, last time I looked) that the names
be spelled without diacritics, since that's the most common way they're
spelled in sports media -- and the national wikiprojects insist they be
spelled with them, since that's the most common way they're spelled
everywhere else, especially in the countries the players come from.

The discussion, whenever it comes up, then gets sidetracked into issues
of usability (how hard is it to type those characters?), server load
(does it matter if most links come via redirects?), hit counting (which
version, for any given name, really _is_ the most common?), consistency
(should we pick the most common form for each player separately, for
each country/language, for each specific sport, for all sportspeople in
general, or what?  what about people who are both hockey players and
local politicians?), language politics (how to define the "most common
English name"?  does usage by people speaking English as a second
language count?  does it matter what some other-language Wikipedia
does?), prescriptiveness vs. descriptiveness (should we use the
"correct" name for a topic even if an "incorrect" one is more common?
what is "correct", and how, if at all, does it relate to "official"?),
turf wars (where should the discussion be conducted?  who should be
involved?  does alerting your wikiproject count as astroturfing?  what
about alerting your local Wikipedia?) and general wikilawyering (what
does the current version of the naming guidelines say?  what did it say
last month?  do the topical subguidelines override the main guideline?
does existing practice override guidelines?  does the fact that this
sentence seems to missing a word have any effect?)

At some point I was tempted to suggest a JavaScript hack that would make
the diacritics blink on and off.

--
Ilmari Karonen


from_name: Rich Holton

subject: [WikiEN-l] Search

body:
? Firefoxman wrote:
> Lets fase it, the MediaWiki search is dreadful. Is is possible that we can
> go to Google search and embed it or somthing?
>
The barrier to using a solution such as Google's "search appliance" is
philosophical rather than technical or financial (although those may
also pose certain challenges). The Wikimedia Foundation is committed to
support open source software, and Google is not open source.

What needs to happen is for a group of developers to develop a new
search engine (or adapt an existing open source engine) so it can be
embedded into MediaWiki.

Our expectations of what a search engine can do are set by Google,
Yahoo, MSN, etc.

Of course, it's "impossible" for any volunteer-driven open-source
project to compete with a well-funded product from a major corporation.
I mean, that would be like taking on Internet Explorer, or Microsoft
Office, or... hmmm... Encyclopedia Brittanica.

-Rich


from_name: · Firefoxman

subject: [WikiEN-l] Search

body:
Lets fase it, the MediaWiki search is dreadful. Is is possible that we can
go to Google search and embed it or somthing?

--
-Firefoxman


subject: [WikiEN-l] Search

body:
Well, is there some js hack to make wikisearches automaticly go to google?

On 2/3/07, Rich Holton <richholton at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ? Firefoxman wrote:
> > Lets fase it, the MediaWiki search is dreadful. Is is possible that we
> can
> > go to Google search and embed it or somthing?
> >
> The barrier to using a solution such as Google's "search appliance" is
> philosophical rather than technical or financial (although those may
> also pose certain challenges). The Wikimedia Foundation is committed to
> support open source software, and Google is not open source.
>
> What needs to happen is for a group of developers to develop a new
> search engine (or adapt an existing open source engine) so it can be
> embedded into MediaWiki.
>
> Our expectations of what a search engine can do are set by Google,
> Yahoo, MSN, etc.
>
> Of course, it's "impossible" for any volunteer-driven open-source
> project to compete with a well-funded product from a major corporation.
> I mean, that would be like taking on Internet Explorer, or Microsoft
> Office, or... hmmm... Encyclopedia Brittanica.
>
> -Rich
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
-Firefoxman


from_name: Simetrical

body:
On 2/2/07, Raimond Spekking <raimond.spekking at gmail.com> wrote:
> color="error"? Sure? Not class="error" as mentioned in the log message?

Uh, it's a . . . new attribute in . . . um . . . XHTML 1.0.  Yes.
Right.  *cough*


body:
Abigail Brady wrote:
> On 2/3/07, Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:
>> (Not sure how else to phrase "cities located within the geographical
>> boundaries of the Pacific Ocean" in a shorter manner, actually)
>
> [[Category:Pacific Rim cities]]?

Honolulu isn't particularly near the rim, though, and most of the cities
that are Pacific Rim are actually on continents.

And it was just a quick hypothetical example I came up with to
illustrate a more general point, too, so this is all kind of a
digression. I don't actually want to create this category. My point was
simply that one can have both region-based and political-based
geographic categories existing in parallel.


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 03/02/07, Parker Peters <parkerpeters1002 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Now quit trying to troll me. I know you think it's a fun game to try to kick
> people when they're down, but you're just proving what a troll you yourself
> are.

Don't push it.

- d.


body:
On 2/3/07, brion at pobox.com <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>    2 previously passing test(s) now FAILING! :(
>       * Gallery
>       * <references> after <gallery> (bug 6164)

That was me, but I doubt I can fix it properly, since parser tests
don't work on Windows for some reason.


body:
On 2/2/07, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikitech at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/2/07, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> > Won't this cause cached gallery captions to no longer appear centered
> > and bold when displayed with the new style sheet?
>
> Er . . . right.  I didn't think of that.  Solution is to keep the old
> style there temporarily, I guess?

Well, I'll do that for now.  Workaround, but hey, if it works . . . or
should I actually update the parser version?


from_name: Stephen Bain

body:
On 2/3/07, Guettarda <guettarda at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The article says that the rates are high, but within the normal range.  If
> that's true, could on really make a case for extortion?

I would have to see the terms of the agreement, but I would imagine
that Corbis/Getty etc. are offering forbearance [1] in addition to the
licence for the image as their consideration, in exchange for the
larger fee. That's not extortion, in fact it's quite common in
commercial negotiations.

--

(1) "Forbearance", in this context, means refraining from exercising a
right to take legal action. It often appears in the context of a debt
agreement, for example if A loaned $1000 to B, and B didn't pay the
money back when it was due, A might renegotiate the loan agreement and
offer forbearance (from suing to enforce the debt) if B agreed to pay,
say $200 extra within a certain amount of time.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: Oldak Quill

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia futurology

body:
On 03/02/07, Sage Ross <sage.ross at yale.edu> wrote:
> For your light amusement, my attempt at predicting what Wikipedia will
> be like in 5 years:
>
> http://ragesossscholar.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-will-wikipedia-be-like-5-years.html
>
> -Ragesoss

Interesting read. All features we want and which would be of benefit
to Wikipedia.

--
Oldak Quill (oldakquill at gmail.com)


from_name: Mohamed Magdy

subject:
[Foundation-l] Comparison of new user welcome efforts across
 projects

body:
Thanks for bringing that up to our attention, it is indeed a forgotten
place!. also thanks for that table, it should help. but as you said,
simple welcoming message is essential concentrating on the most
important aspects. and yes, yours are designed specifically for commons
place as it seems. especially the 'how to' change language. another
thing, you should include a semi-protected template in
MediaWiki:Welcomecreation page. as I have seen, a lot of registered
users can be creative and yields great results.

Mohamed Magdy


subject: [WikiEN-l] Inclusion criteria of one category

body:
Bryan Derksen wrote:

>Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>
>>Bryan Derksen wrote:
>>
>>
>>>We could for example have [[Category:Cities in
>>>the United States]] and [[Category:Cities in the Pacific Ocean]]
>>>
>>>
>>Looking forward to global warming, are we? :-(
>>
>>
>I'm a Canadian in the depths of winter, so yes. :)
>
That won't do me much good in the Mouth of the Fraser.

>(Not sure how else to phrase "cities located within the geographical
>boundaries of the Pacific Ocean" in a shorter manner, actually)
>
"On" would at least keep us floating, or something like "along the
Pacific shores"

Ec


body:
Abigail Brady wrote:

>On 2/3/07, Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bryan Derksen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>We could for example have [[Category:Cities in
>>>>the United States]] and [[Category:Cities in the Pacific Ocean]]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Looking forward to global warming, are we? :-(
>>>
>>>
>>I'm a Canadian in the depths of winter, so yes. :)
>>
>>(Not sure how else to phrase "cities located within the geographical
>>boundaries of the Pacific Ocean" in a shorter manner, actually)
>>
>>
>[[Category:Pacific Rim cities]]?
>
Thanks, that's the one I was trying to think of.

Ec


from_name: Florence Devouard

subject: [Foundation-l] [Announcement] Executive Director Search Firm

body:
A few days ago, the board has agreed to retain "Phillips Oppenheim" to
help Wikimedia Foundation in the process of finding its Executive Director.

You may find more information about this firm here:
http://www.phillipsoppenheim.com/laurie_nash.html
and more information about what we are looking for (unofficial) here:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/027269.html

More information shall come later.

Florence Devouard
Chair Wikimedia Foundation


body:
After eight months in the position of interim Executive Director, Brad
Patrick will be resuming his other role as General Counsel exclusively.
Due to the volume of work and need to move forward with a permanent
solution for the ED role, the Board is focusing on retaining an
executive search firm to conduct the search for a new ED.

In the coming weeks, the Board will be working directly
with staff on priority issues (see next announcement on the matter).

Brad has done a great deal to help the Foundation move forward in such
areas as governance, technology and contracting, audit, hiring, and many
other things. With the conclusion of the fundraiser and the immediate
financial future of the Foundation secure, now is the time to look ahead
to the selection of a new Executive Director to manage the operations of
the Foundation. This will enable Brad to focus on developing the role of
General Counsel, and addressing a backlog of complex legal questions the
Foundation faces moving forward.

Florence Devouard
Wikimedia Foundation Chair

Links
* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-February/027477.html Announcement concerning the selected firm
* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/027269.html (explanation of the differences between CEO, COO and Board)


from_name: Roberto Alfonso

subject:
[Foundation-l] Comparison of new user welcome efforts across
	projects

body:
Just a thought:

I am member of over 20 different Wikipedias, and while I have no
problems with English and Spanish, little problem with Japanese, and
can understand several other languages although not well enough to
write in them (Italian, Portuguese, French, etc), only very few
Wikipedias give an "If you don't understand XXXX, see here". I believe
users from all Wikipedias should group together to create messages for
every Wikipedia in as many languages as possible, that would really
help new and existing users, especially with instructions about simple
common tasks (interwikis, speedy deletion messages, administrator's
noticeboard, etc).

Not something we can solve at a "software" level, but at a "community" level.

RB


subject: [Foundation-l] [Announcement] Executive update

body:
As just announced, the Wikimedia Foundation does not have any executive director any more, until an ED is found (hopefully within 3-4 months). This raises some questions of organisation.
To foster efficiency and channel communications, the board has agreed that the following staff members or contractants shall be reporting to the following people.

For all office/administrative issues, staff (Barbara, Danny...) will report to Carolyn
Carolyn (operations) will report to Florence
Sandy (communication) will report to Florence
Brad (legal) will report to Florence
Danny (non administrative tasks, eg grants, special projects etc...) will report to Erik
Brion/Mark/Tim (tech) will report to Jan-Bart
Delphine (chapters) will report to Oscar

Due to their background, Oscar and Michael (are and) will be very involved in financial and audit considerations.
Jimbo is more focused on public relations and licenses discussions.
Kat is spending time on various legal-related, licenses discussions and is in charge of an assignment not yet made public :-) (ahah! cabal!)

Florence Devouard
Chair of Wikimedia Foundation

Links
* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-February/027477.html (Announcement concerning the ED search firm)
* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/027269.html (explanation of the differences between CEO, COO and Board)
*http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-February/027478.html (Brad moving to GC job)
* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/027268.html (Announcement of Carolyn becoming COO)
* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026515.html (4 wishes for year 2007... including reorganisation and financial considerations)
* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/027171.html (Welcome to Sandy)
* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-February/027455.html (Welcome to chapter coordinator)


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Conspicuous only in its absence (was Moldavian)

body:
I have said it before and I will say it again: you live in France.

Mark

On 03/02/07, Liviu Andronic <landronimirc at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The fact that I do not live in "my" country does not mean that I do not live
> with its realities. I'm concerned with these as much as anyone living in
> there, as they touch my parents, family and friends - people dear to me. As
> better a position he may be in for day-to-day observations, I'm quite suited
> for periodical ones. Which may not necessarily be "worse", especially when
> backed by previous, relatively recent, day-to-day ones. As for his feelings
> - he would most definitely have some. Positive or negative. In either case,
> he has no right to speak so easily over an issue deemed serious and
> important by a group of people. Even under the widely accepted freedom of
> speech right.
>
> Regards,
> Liviu
>
> On 2/4/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Liviu Andronic schreef:
> > > On 2/1/07, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Well, Berto lives in Ukraine, you live in Toulouse, France.
> > >>
> > >
> > > This is the point. It is my language, my country, my region - if you
> > want.
> > > Some things that are important to me. I come from there. While he - he
> > came
> > > in there.
> > Hoi,
> > Would you not agree that because Berto lives in "your" country, a
> > country where you do not live, is in a better position to observe. Would
> > you not agree that as he chooses to live there he may know the people,
> > the country, the region and love them as well?
> > Thanks,
> >     GerardM
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Liviu
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Refije dirije lanm? yo paske nou posede pw?p bato.