subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia more popular than Britannica!

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Oliver Pereira wrote:
>
>>Since I've only just heard of these people, I may be getting this wrong,
>>but it seems from what I've been reading that there are two different
>>Safras being discussed here. The chap who died in the fire was Edmond
>>Jacob Safra (August 6, 1931 or 1932 - December 3, 1999), while the chap
>>who bought the "Encyclopaedia Britannica" is his nephew Jacob Safra (born
>>c. 1950), who as far as I can tell is still alive...
>>
>
>Ah, this warrants further investigation, then.
>
>Perhaps Jacob could get excited about much cheaper philanthropy to
>generate a superior result.  He could close the operation of
>Britannica, give the Wikimedia Foundation 1/10th of what he expects to
>lose, and authorize us to use the name.
>
>I'll be the new Mortimer Adler, it'll be fun.
>
Admittedly, I didn't look too deeply into the possibility that there
would be two Jacob Safras.  As long as my idea remained in the realm of
speculation it didn't matter much.   There are two kinds of ideas that
can succeed: little conservative ones where with a lot of hard work you
might beat them out for a single, and the hairbrained ones full of
chutzpah that you knock right out of the park. A takeover of EB would
clearly fall in the latter.

Whichever Safra is involved it seems clear that his takeover of EB was
more than just a money making venture.  A great deal of prestige,
idealism and philanthropy went into that equation.  The key to our
winning EB could lie in how we appeal in those terms to the Safra family.

Looking into this subject leads me into all sorts of interesting
observations. In http://slate.msn.com/id/1003924/ there is some analysis
of EB's failings, with suggestions that even the likes of Disney are
salivating for EB's scraps.  But there is another observation to be
made:  This is an msn site, and although it mentions how Encarta was
given the encyclopedia market on a silver platter, nowhere in the
article or in the frame is there a link to Encarta!

Our NPOV policy and our openness are a great competitive advantage, and
maintaining principles through periods of rapid growth will be a test
yet to come.  I don't think that the big players in the encyclopedia
publishing game have yet fully grasped the importance of the revolution
in concepts of intellectual property.  Many of them may be too concerned
with protecting fat salaries.  The information has always belonged to
the people, and it's only the way that it is expressed that is
copyrightable.  Until recently the people could be kept from that
information because they did not have the means to reproduce and store
it easily.  Before Gutenberg only the very rich and the churches had
complete acess to knowledge, and that acess was closely guarded.  The
churches, by guarding access to knowledge could control what knowledge
you would be permitted.  I believe that the growth of electronic media
allows us to go one step further.

Anyway, to get my idle speculation back on track.  I can see the
possibility, at least initially, of EB as a separate project functioning
as a subsidiary of Wikimedia.  It could be a profit making subsidiary,
but it would be extremely difficult to be sure of this without knowing
its full finacial picture, including copyright arrangements for its
existing material.  It is conceivable that its noteworthy contributors
may have insisted on retaining copyright as a condition of being
published in EB.

Asking the Safras for 1/10 of their losses is interesting, but I don't
know if it would be necessary.  They will of course be able to take a
big tax loss, and making sure that what we get is free from any debt
load would be a handy feature.  An understanding that we would give a
share of the profit to one of their favorite charities (of their choice)
could be a convincing argument. We already have a Wikipedian who works
for the Holocaust Museum.

It's fun to muse about these things. :-)   Do we have anybody who has
personal contact with the Safras?

Eclecticology


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Please stop lying about the content of my letters

body:
Robert wrote:

>James Duffy, JTDIRL, has been causing problems on the
>"State of Israel" article of late, because he refuses to
>work with others in our Wikipedia peer-review. Instead of
>working on the many Arab and Jewish refugee articles that
>already exist, he keeps bypassing the peer-review by trying
>to stuff his own biased statements into new articles.
>
>When I noted this, he made personal attacks on me as
>promoting "censorship". This is a violation of Wikipedia
>protocol.
>
You mean like this?

"It is difficult to work with someone who repeatedly makes
false claims, and who has a persecution complex."

(In case you've forgotten, this is you writing about Anthere
several weeks ago.)

You'd have a lot more sympathy if you didn't have a long
history of making nasty personal accusations about other
people. You're lucky that Jimbo is an ultra-nice guy; if
I were in charge, both you and Jtdir1 would have been
permanently hard-banned months ago for ad hominem and
abusive remarks to other people.

It's OK to criticize an edit, and even to use nasty words
in the criticism, but you cross the line when you start
applying them to the people directly, and when you impute
vicious motives to people you don't know at all.

Stan


from_name: Dante Alighieri

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Please stop lying about the content of my
  letters

body:
At 08:23 AM 8/6/2003, you wrote:
>Do you see what I mean?  I have a certain position...and
>people just write total fabrications about my beliefs. That
>is just unacceptable.
>
>
>Robert (RK)

Congratulations. In a rush to spam the list with yet more whining about how
you're being horribly persecuted, you ignored my message and yet AGAIN
accused jtdirl of saying that Zionists are racists. You're winning friends
left and right.

-----
Dante Alighieri
dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their
neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Google search

body:
Chris Harris wrote:

>One followup newbie question:  I didn't see the search "fix" announced
>on Wikipedia:Announcements - is there some other place that
>Wikipedia/software announcements are made?  Or maybe there is
>another maillist with such announcements?
>
I announced it right here in this list:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-August/005678.html

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Chris Harris

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Google search

body:
An apology: sorry for the superfluous email and wasted bandwidth.  I
just read Brion Vibber's announcement of the temporary search in the
most recent WikiEN-l digest.

Thanks again Brion, it looks great!

Regards,
Harris7

8/6/03 10:49:12 AM, Chris Harris <harris7 at io.com> wrote:

>Well, I realize I'm a newbie and all... but <sniff> I guess I'll have to just
>reply to my own email since nobody will talk to me :-)
>
>I just noticed the search button is now working, and working great!  A
big
>Thank You to the responsible developer!!
>
>One followup newbie question:  I didn't see the search "fix" announced
>on Wikipedia:Announcements - is there some other place that
>Wikipedia/software announcements are made?  Or maybe there is
>another maillist with such announcements?
>
>Thanks,
>Harris7
>
>
>8/5/03 2:09:53 PM, Chris Harris <harris7 at io.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>In the "not found" screen ("No page with this exact title
>>exists, trying full text search. Well, I would be trying a full text
>>search here... Google and run a search on
>>site:wikipedia.org -- the results will be outdated and
>>incomplete, though.") wouldn't it be much friendlier to send
>>the user directly to the following link?  I think I copied this
>>from the old search or "not found" screen:
>>
>>http://www.google.com/custom?
>>sa=Google+Search&domains=wikipedia.org&sitesearch=
>>wikipedia.org
>>
>>Regards,
>> Harris7
>>
>
>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:  How Wikipedia breaks the GNU/FDL

body:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Nicholas Knight wrote:

> I'm not a lawyer. Anyone taking anything in the below text as legal advice
> should be drawn and quartered.
>
> on Wednesday 06 August 2003 00:40 -0700, Andre Engels wrote:
>
> > 4B: We do not list the author of the last version plus at least five
> > authors
> >     of the old version on the title page.
>
> To quote from 4B:
> "...unless they release you from this requirement."
>
> One could easily argue that Wikipedia recieves an implicit release based on
> the fact that it is self-evident to contributors before they submit anything
> that we do not list the authors in this way.

Ah, yes. I used the GNU/FDL as shown on the Dutch Wikipedia. That shows
Version 1.1, which does not contain that bit. Version 1.2, which is shown
on the English version and on GNU's own page, does indeed contain it.

> > 4E: We do not add a copyright notice each time a new document is
> > created.
>
> To quote 4E in its entirety:
> "E. Add an appropriate copyright notice for your modifications
>    adjacent to the other copyright notices."
>
> WHAT other copyright notices?

The copyright notice that is there in the document because of 4F+addendum.

> >4F+addendum: The license notice of Wikipedia is not in the
> > prescribed form,
> >     and it is not put on the title page
>
> The only person concievably able to try and enforce that provision on
> documents submitted to Wikipedia without looking like a complete idiot in
> front of everyone -- including U.S. courts -- would be the original author,
> and he'd have a time of it.

[snip]

> Need I say more?

So you are basically saying that because we are not likely to get sued for
it in court, it does not matter? In that case, I propose that we announce that
we shift from GNU/FDL to CC license in a few months' time as soon as possible.
I don't think anyone would mind, and if someone does, we can still remove
their text at request. If then they still want to go to court, they'll have a
hard time arguing that the CC license (with removal on request) damaged them
in a way the GNU/FDL would not have.

To avoid withdrawals from regular contributors hanging above us as a sword of
Damocles, we could program it so that the first edit after the announcement
of the switch entails an automatic acceptance that previous edits are moved
to the CC license unless one has objected within a certain time period.

Andre Engels


list: textbook-l

from_name: Karl Wick

subject: [Textbook-l] RE: Anonymous contributions

body:
Alex T. the lawyer wrote:
>I'd don't know if it is too late if we can get the Free
Software Foundation
to allow us to create a specific Wikimedia ver.2 successor
license that
will apply ONLY to what has been posted on Wikipedia on ver
1 licenses

Dude you are a lifesaver. Please keep helping us think
outside the box to figure out a workable solution.

Is there any way to support a claim that Wikipedia has
authority to redistribute the contributions that have been
made to it under other licenses ? Such as fair use, or the
fact that people contributed to stuff on their servers, etc
? (Before Mav or anyone flames me, I realize that neither
of those is likely the answer but is there something else
that could be?)

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: Alex T.

subject: [Wikipedia-l] How Wikipedia breaks the GNU/FDL

body:
Some of Andre's comments show that a documentation license
(designed for software manuals) may not be the best license to
use for an online wiki knowledge base; regarding authorship,
I have thought that the history pages and links to user pages
fulfills all the authorship requirements of the license, technically
the title page stuff does not make sense, but remember this license
was written for software manuals, not for web pages.

Regarding any technical violations, I doubt that it amounts to anything
more than a non-material breach as the spirit of the license is being
followed, it would seem to me that if someone was using Wikipedia
under the GNU FDL license that if they linked back to the page
they got the material from and put a link to the page history for
the authorship requirement that would show substantial compliance
with the license, even without the link to the page history anyone
who links back to the Wikipedia page is probably complying in
a way to give all third parties sufficient notice to know that it is
a copyleft license with original material and attribution being preserved.

When someone posts material on the wikipedia web site
unless they licencing it (i.e. getting it from a GNU FDL source), they have
the
right to post it in any form they want, it is anyone who uses Wikipedia
texts that is bound by the GNU FDL, not Wikipedia "itself".  Regarding
cutting and pasting between pages one could interpret the licence that
someone gives Wikipedia as including such broad editing rights, certainly
their is an non-exclusive license given to have one's texts posted on
Wikipedia, however, moving it between pages does prevent one from knowing
the attribution of the author unless someone figures out where the original
page history resides. As the license granted to Wikipedia includes merciless
editing, that should include moving the text to the place it belongs (if
posted
on the wrong page). Quaere: Is moving large blocks of a page a violation of
this license granted to Wikipedia? Certainly the person who posted the
material
knows that it could be so moved so why shouldn't it be movable?
alex756
----- Original Message -----
"Andre Engels" <engels at uni-koblenz.de> said on Wednesday, August 06, 2003
3:40 AM

> It seems that the smallest amount of broken rules comes when we consider
> Wikipedia as a "Collection of Documents" rather than "Combined Documents"
or
> a single document, but in any case we break:
>
> 4B: We do not list the author of the last version plus at least five
authors
>     of the old version on the title page.
> 4E: We do not add a copyright notice each time a new document is created.
> 4F+addendum: The license notice of Wikipedia is not in the prescribed
form,
>     and it is not put on the title page
> 4I: Our history section is called "<title> Revision history" rather than
>     "History".


body:
 I'd don't know if it is too late if we can get the Free Software Foundation
to allow us to create a specific Wikimedia ver.2 successor license that
will apply ONLY to what has been posted on Wikipedia on ver 1 licenses
(it is currently 1.2, no?). I cannot see any reason why FSF would not allow
that as it is within the spirit of open content and copyleft, it would just
make it better for an online knowledge base to adapt the license that
was originally written for software manuals so that it will encourage more
distribution of knowledge.
FSF certainly has the power to create a successor license to v.1.2 that will
only apply to certain materials, unless of course if they want to do it so
that
anyone who uses v. 1.2 or a similar license that might be approved. Maybe
we can have them put that similar licence successor clause put in so that
it could then point to a native Wikimedia copyleft license (that would have
been approved by FSF). All future content could be directly licensed under
Wikimedia's native license (which could include a broad non-exclusive
licencing clause and also an "as-is" warranty waiver which is not in the GNU
FDL).
alex756
 "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at bomis.com> on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 9:01 PM
wrote: >
> Absolutely, except that now it is too late for Wikipedia.
>
> If I were doing it all again with benefit of hindsight, I would have
> setup wikipedia *from the start* to require everyone to contribute
> under a disjunctive license that said, basically, people can
> redistribute under the terms of the GNU FDL or any other content
> license specifically approved by the FSF as free and copyleft.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> Textbook-l mailing list
> Textbook-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/textbook-l


subject: [Textbook-l] letter to RMS

body:
I drafted this letter to RMS to seek his blessing on a
change to the terms of the GNU FDL which would allow some
sharing between the GNU FDL and other copyleft licenses.
Lets see if we can get a consensus on this so we can send
it out to him.

--Karl

To: "rms" at "stallman" period "org"

Dear Richard,

A quick question. I am writing on behalf of the Wikipedia
and Wikimedia Foundation with a licensing question. The
Wikipedia has grown to be the largest resource of open
content, copylefted material known. As you know, all of its
content is licensed under the terms of the GNU FDL.

Recently, other open content, copyleft licenses have come
into use, most notably some Creative Commons licenses.

I am interested in a level of intercompatibility between
the GNU FDL and these other copyleft licenses. The goals
are to preserve the copyleft nature of the material while
allowing material to be shared under certain circumstances
and conditions with other projects using these paralell
licenses.

My interest lies in adding a clause to the terms of the GNU
FDL license that would in some way allow the sharing of
materials exclusively with other copyleft licenses. You of
course would have to be in agreement with all end changes
as well as the process to get there.

Thank you very much for your attention,
Karl Wick

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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Nick Reinking

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Banning a user account...

body:
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 07:38:25PM +0200, Matthias Jordan wrote:
> Hi, folks!
>
> Nick Reinking wrote:
>
> >Hey, this is Marumari - how does one go about banning a user account
>
> I guess you could simply change it's password and eMail address. Then
> the account is still there but cannot be used (unless the user guesses
> the right password). The only question left is: what is banning of user
> accounts worth if everybody can get as many accounts as she wants?
>
> Bye!
>
> Matthias

Well, that's what I thought - but apparently Mbecker seems to think that
we have the ability to disable an account for good; I'm not sure if that
is what he is thinking of or not.

--
Nick Reinking -- eschewing obfuscation since 1981 -- Minneapolis, MN


from_name: limholt at excite.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikimedia.org

body:
I like the sample the Brion made from Magnus logo for Wikibooks. That is the one currently at http://wikimedia.org.

Thanks, and good work all.

Lou Imholt (LouI at wiki)

_______________________________________________
Express Yourself - Share Your Mood in Emails!
Visit www.SmileyCentral.com - the happiest place on the Web.


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] CNN article on Wikipedia

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

> tarquin wrote:
>
>> Great stuff :)
>> But "just a few edits an hour"?
>
>
> Only off by a factor of sixty... Not bad for CNN. :)
>
the professor says that himself in the interview in the video -- I
thought he was a wikipedia regular.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
K Forstner wrote:

>Thanks for letting me know that my watchlist contains 1655 pages. If only I
>could access it. Did the announcement that the page would be disabled escape
>my notice?
>
No, you saw it right there.

> What is going to be disabled next? Wikipedia?
>
>Sorry for this emotional outburst, but if you're in the middle of
>cross-referencing, this is more than inconvenient.
>
So is the site being slower than a glacier.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Richard Grevers

subject: License Incompatibilities (was Re: [Wikitech-l] CIA Factbook Slurping)

body:
On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:11:01 -0700, Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com> gave
utterance to the following:

> Erik Moeller wrote:
>> Evan-
>> > Yes, I'm pretty sure they're incompatible, actually.
>>
>> Dual licensing should be possible. Just change the submission notice to
>> say that users agree that content can be used under both the terms of
>> the  FDL and the CC Share Alike license.
>
> Well, several of us have analyzed this carefully, and I don't agree.
> Dual licensing doesn't really help much, and actually would tend to
> invite disastrous complexities.
>
Question: If none of the existing licensing systems quite fulfils
Wikipedia's needs, why doesn't Wikimedia (i.e. us) write a license that
does work?
--
Richard Grevers
Bureaucrats cut red tape - lengthwise


from_name: Steve Vertigo

subject: [Wikipedia-l] What If?

body:
Is there a program written yet to chart the topical
flow of newsgroup discussions? --  taking into
consideration the lulls and the ebbs -- the rate of
recurrence of heated debates (on various particular
subjects) -- of new readers asking a elementary
question about a topic that was only a week ago was
discussed to death for three straight weeks? Etc. Etc.

:)
-SV (still catching up on the last three days)

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] I really do wish I could talk to Jtdirl

body:
Um James, thats an awful long email, if you know what
I mean.

Respectfully, (you Tory bastard ;)
-S-

--- james duffy <jtdirl at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >At 06:08 PM 8/5/2003, you wrote:
> >>On a separate topic:  I am uncomfortable with the
> way that
> >>Jtdirl and others slander me as a racist. For
> example,
> >>Jtdirl again stated that Zionists are racists. He
> does this
> >>knowing that I a Zionist, therefore the clear
> implication
> >>is that I am racist bigot whose words should be
> ignored.
> >>
> >>Such angry and false speech about Zionists (which
> includes
> >>tens of millions of Jews and Christians) is not
> appropriate
> >>here. Would we accept it if people said that Irish
> >>nationalism is racist? That feminism is
> FemiNazism? That
> >>black progressivism is really white-hating
> communism? I
> >>doubt that most Wikipedias would stand for this.
> But when
> >>people here make these generalized and incorrect
> statements
> >>about Zionists, no one says a word.
> >>
> >>You and I don't speak this way about people of
> other
> >>groups; I propose that this standard should be
> true for all
> >>of us here. I hope that I am not perceived as
> being
> >>unreasonable.
> >>
> >>
> >>Robert (RK)
> >
> >Dante Alighieri replied:
>
> >I would imagine that it doesn't help your cause
> when you falsely attribute
> >comments to the improper party. jtdirl didn't say
> that Zionists were
> >racists, PL did. jtdirl mentioned it as an example
> of why PL should be
> >banned. Not that I expect logic and facts to get in
> the way of your agenda,
> >but I figured I at least ought to point out one of
> the most egregious of
> >your mischaracterizations.
>
> Thank you, Dante, for pointing out that. Trust RK to
> yet again read into
> something not about him a personalised attack on
> himself. In all the time I
> have been on wiki I have read many (endless, oh god,
> endless!) epistles from
> RK talking about all the horrendous personalised
> attacks on himself. And
> then I'd go looking for one of these attacks to read
> to see how could anyone
> say anything so horrid to him and find some totally
> innocent or mildly
> critical comment which RK had built up into one of
> the biggest attacks ever
> issued on wikipedia, an assault on every fiber of
> his being.  Even more
> comically he now actually imagines that I am so
> preoccupied with him that I
> either care that he is a zionist or even remember
> that he is one. Even
> though I have heard it probably 4.8 million times
> from him since I first had
> the 'pleasure' of encountering his editing syle I
> actually forgotten that he
> is a zionist, so even if some miracle, I was
> bothered enough to want to
> 'offend' him, it would have been difficult to
> deliberately do so using a
> fact I am forgotten. (I wonder if I try enough can I
> blank out not just RK's
> zionism but RK from my consciousness?)
>
> The curious thing is, it is not the first time he
> has accused me of
> deliberately insulting him by calling him a Zionist
> and I've read him make
> the same accusation of others. Does he recycle his
> allegations  or
> something? Or is there this vast conspiracy of
> people on wiki, all hovering
> around waiting to make anti-zionist comments when he
> is logged on to wiki,
> millions of wiki users secretly watching a hidden
> camera to wait for the
> moment when RK decides to log on to wiki, then all
> the world's (well the
> wiki's anyway) anti-zionists, anti-semites,
> anti-RKians, all rush to add in
> special insults, just for RK, about RK.
>
> For the record, RK
>
> 1. I do not spend everyone working hour thinking
> about you, nor for that
> matter do most people on wikl. You have told us ad
> nausaum that you are a
> Zionist but frankly we really couldn't be bothered
> to remember.
>
> 2. From what I could see, most of the offensive
> comments you have complained
> about on wiki are your own imaginings. /You/ attach
> frequently bizarre
> meanings to them, take offence at your bizarre
> attached meanings,  and then
> attack others for lauching attacks on you that are
> in fact your own
> fantasies, as in interpreting my reference to an
> anti-semite vandal's
> comments, which were intended to point out why this
> user should be banned,
> as an attack on you.
>
> BTW just so we are clear, RK, that last paragraph
> did not (a) call you a
> vandal, (b) call you an antisemite, (c) did not call
> for you to be banned,
> (d) did not mention ''Zionism'' (which I had
> forgotten again for a moment.
> That you for reminding me about a fact that is of no
> interest to me, least I
> use the forgotten topic of no interest to me to
> deliberately attack a user I
> really don't think much about using something I have
> forgotten anyway!)
>
> Finally, an example of how RK's rampant paranoia is
> catching. In a first
> draft of the first paragraph, I accused RK in his
> paranoia, of to use a
> theatrical saying, 'hamming it up'. But then it
> dawned on me that he might
> (no, in RK's case, would) think I was attacking his
> Jewish identity by
> referring to religious dietary rules. So though
> using a threatrical phrase
> not thinking of food or religion (just a film
> earlier last night about an
> actor accused of hamming his performance), /I/ found
> myself not thinking
> about the nature of what I had written, but instead
> about the paranoid
> interpretation that RK, as usual, would construct
> around it and so how to
> avoid triggering offence, however accidentially, to
> RK who seems to have an
> almost masochistic desire to take offence. (BTW RK,
> please don't interpret
> the word 'masochistic' as meaning that I am in any
> way commenting on any
> sexual matter, I am not accusing you of any kinky
> activities, much less
> thinking of you engaging in any kinky activities of
> a zionist or non-zionist
> kind. Is that now clear, RK? Have you  /finally/ got
> the message? (Oh
> please, dear God/Jehovah/Allah, Our Father, Our
> Blessed Mother, anyone out
> there, let RK get the message this time and stop
> driving the rest of wiki
> demented with his paranoia!) :-)
>
> JT
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months
> FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Ban Palestinian liberator immediately

body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Jimmy O'Regan wrote:
>
> > Erik Moeller wrote:
> >
> >> Well, the idea is that for a banned user, you
> don't really have to
> >> pay  much attention to what he does -- just
> revert and let other
> >> people restore  if it's any good. For non-banned
> users you have to
> >> look at each edit  carefully before reverting.
> Sorry if that
> >> distinction wasn't clear.
> >>
> >
> > Sorry, just couldn't pass up the chance to make a
> smart ass comment.
> > As for the "let other people..." part - that's
> what I have tried to do
> > with Michael's stuff for a while, and it's lead
> tosome minor
> > disagreement; it may take a while for this
> approach to gain currency.
>
> I know the irresistable attraction of smart ass
> comments.  Given the
> amount that's been written about PL one can only say
> that with friends
> like him the Palestinians don't need any enemies.
> :-)
>
> Ec

To Ec: I think Jimmys point was a valid one -- namely
that "banned user treatment" is not always consistent
thing.

Erik wrote:
> >> Well, the idea is that for a banned user, you
> don't really have to
> >> pay  much attention to what he does -- just
> revert and let other
> >> people restore  if it's any good.

I dont recall this 'practical approach' ever being
codified -- it seems to me that if it *was codified,
there would be some questions to deal with -- Jimmys
among them.

-S-

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Maybe there should ba a way to purge our watchlists?
Ive had a feeling for a while that auto logging these
were maybe bogging things down, if only to add a few
commands to the server load.

-S-

--- K Forstner <kurt.forstner at chello.at> wrote:
> Thanks for letting me know that my watchlist
> contains 1655 pages. If only I
> could access it. Did the announcement that the page
> would be disabled escape
> my notice? What is going to be disabled next?
> Wikipedia?
>
> Sorry for this emotional outburst, but if you're in
> the middle of
> cross-referencing, this is more than inconvenient.
>
> KF
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:

>Maybe there should ba a way to purge our watchlists?
>Ive had a feeling for a while that auto logging these
>were maybe bogging things down, if only to add a few
>commands to the server load.
>
Already added that.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] What If?

body:
>EC: Anyone who likes receiving this
> kind of message wuld
> be
> > free to subscribe to the whineopedia list. :-)

Umm.... Would that be eligible for Wikimedia funds? :}

> Hmm. Maybe a web-based bulletin board which by its
> nature helps people
> sort discussions by topic and discourages getting
> off topic, and which
> allows for easier reference to the Wikipedia content
> being discussed?
>
> Just a thought.

I think it may be getting practical --- there seems to
be inclreased traffic on the lists -- I still cant
figure out why the Village pump isnt run as some kind
of threaded chat page. -- even that would be against
the purpose of

-- the digests are miserable due to all the metadata,
-- the archives are fairly ok to read from -- aside
from plain email -- but theres no return form from
archives to answer with, and it has an annoying bug of
not wrapping unformatted text -- so that LD's and
others messages read as a single very long string...

Forget about the "trend analysis" thing for mail --
its a bit too Psychohistory. There should be an
article: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory

:P
-S-

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
--- Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Steve Vertigo wrote:
>
> >Maybe there should ba a way to purge our
> watchlists?
> >Ive had a feeling for a while that auto logging
> these
> >were maybe bogging things down, if only to add a
> few
> >commands to the server load.
> >
> Already added that.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Damn, you work quick. :)
-S-

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wikidown spam...

body:
Why not just use the traditional image-word deal and
change it up a couple times a week?  This should keep
the actual amount of filter-text down to just a word.

-S-

--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> Nicholas-
> > On Wednesday 06 August 2003 01:43, Brion Vibber
> wrote:
> >> The wikidown address has been getting spam in the
> last few days... I
> >> don't know if Lee still has it forwarding to his
> beeper, but that could
> >> be awful annoying. :P
> >>
> >> Suggestions?
>
> > Auto-reject anything that doesn't have a certain
> string in it?
>
> > Naturally this can't be something simply tossed
> along side the address. I'd
> > suggest omething like "Add pi to itself. For the
> purposes of this exercise,
> > pi is three-point-one-four. Include the result in
> the subject.". Takes two
> > seconds, not worth the effort for spammers to try
> and parse automatically
> > (yet), and not terribly likely to show up as an
> actual part of the spam.
>
> A simple "the body needs to contain the message 'The
> chief difficulty
> Alice found at first was in managing her flamingo'"
> should be completely
> sufficient. Spammers are usually bots.
>
> Alternatively, just set up SpamAssassin. It catches
> most of the spam.
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Wikitech-l] More information about the visitors please

body:
Now there is the information that you can find a xx.wikipedia.org/stats
That is good but I would like more details.

Is there a different tool to view the logs instead to Webalizer that gives
more information?
If the information is to sensetive to be public make it sysop-only.

If webalizer is the best that can provided can the settings be changed to
make the lists longer?

I would like;
Top 30 of 15178 Total URLs   -> to 100
Top 10 of 4943 Total Entry Pages  -> to 50
Top 30 of 10407 Total Referrers -> to 150
Top 20 of 1882 Total Search Strings -> to 50

If it is only so for the Dutch Wikipedia that is that fine.

Walter

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from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
K Forstner wrote:
>Did the announcement that the page would be disabled
>escape my notice? What is going to be disabled next?
>Wikipedia?

What the hell! My Watchlist has been the main thing
between me and wiki-insanity ever since it became
impractical (and later /impossible/) to review an
entire day's edits. As far as I'm concerned disabling
editing altogether would almost be a better option if
it weren't for the "Related Changes" feature (at least
I can tract changes to pages I have listed on my user
page).

Hey waitaminute - why not place the watchpage list on
a regular wiki page so that Related Changes can do
it's magic on it? As a matter of fact why can't that
/replace/ the slow watchlist code completely? IIRC,
the "Related Changes" and "Recent Changes" code is the
same.

-- A very annoyed (but understanding) mav (with 2,000
watched pages - I thought I had way more than that...)

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikimedia.org

body:
Oliver Pereira wrote:

>"Learn free. Think free."
>
>It sounds grammatically strange to me. Maybe I'm just a bit slow on the
>uptake, but it took me a while to work out how it could even be
>grammatically correct...
>
Obviously you can't have liked Apple's "Think different" ad campaign a
couple years back. ;)

> How about just saying, "Free books!" :)
>
Hmm, the logo could be a book sitting in a jail cell. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>Hey waitaminute - why not place the watchpage list on
>a regular wiki page so that Related Changes can do
>it's magic on it? As a matter of fact why can't that
>/replace/ the slow watchlist code completely? IIRC,
>the "Related Changes" and "Recent Changes" code is the
>same.
>
Actually, Related Changes is more like Watchlist than it is like Recent
Changes, and when you dump a couple thousand links to Related Changes,
it's pretty slow too.

Both Related Changes and the Watchlist have the same problem: they have
a long list of pages sorted by ID or title, but need to report them
sorted by timestamp. This requires fetching a couple thousand rows and
sorting every single one before returning the last N edits.

As an example, it takes 10 seconds or so to return Related Changes on a
copy of my watchlist:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Recentchangeslinked/User:Brion_VIBBER/Watchlist_demo

and a similar amount of time via Special:Watchlist. (Exact time may vary
up and down depending on what's buffered and how much work the server is
doing, of course. But they seem to be of the same order.)

It's also harder to do mass updates of text pages; watchlist entries
need to be able to automatically follow things like page renames, which
is very easy to do with watchlist associations in their own table.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: wikidown spam...

body:
Nicholas-
> On Wednesday 06 August 2003 01:43, Brion Vibber wrote:
>> The wikidown address has been getting spam in the last few days... I
>> don't know if Lee still has it forwarding to his beeper, but that could
>> be awful annoying. :P
>>
>> Suggestions?

> Auto-reject anything that doesn't have a certain string in it?

> Naturally this can't be something simply tossed along side the address. I'd
> suggest omething like "Add pi to itself. For the purposes of this exercise,
> pi is three-point-one-four. Include the result in the subject.". Takes two
> seconds, not worth the effort for spammers to try and parse automatically
> (yet), and not terribly likely to show up as an actual part of the spam.

A simple "the body needs to contain the message 'The chief difficulty
Alice found at first was in managing her flamingo'" should be completely
sufficient. Spammers are usually bots.

Alternatively, just set up SpamAssassin. It catches most of the spam.

Regards,

Erik


body:
Andre-
> To publish something under dual license, is not "expressly provided for
> under the GNU/FDL", and it "offers terms on the work that alter the terms of
> the CC license".

Not at all. It is the licensee who picks the license which he wants to
accept and ignores the other one. The publisher can offer as many licenses
as he wants -- compare Trolltech's licensing policy: GPL or proprietary.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [Wikipedia-l] What If?

body:
Ray Saintonge:
>
> The new reader part is not a big bother.  These questions are often
> short and simple, and many can be easily be answered by whoever
happens
> to be available.
>
> Some of the debates are extremely annoying, such as the recent
> Robert/Jtdirl dispute, and the ones that complain about yet another
> reincarnation of Lir.  Perhaps we could have a whineopedia mailing
list
> (or if our Brits prefer a wingeopedia).  A moderator on this list
could
> redirect any qualifying letters to that list.  Or perhaps, to save the
> sanity of the moderator, an anti-spam device could make the diversion.
>  "Lir" and "anti-Semitism" are canditates for words that would trigger
> the diversion.  Anyone who likes receiving this kind of message wuld
be
> free to subscribe to the whineopedia list. :-)
>
Hmm. Maybe a web-based bulletin board which by its nature helps people
sort discussions by topic and discourages getting off topic, and which
allows for easier reference to the Wikipedia content being discussed?

Just a thought.


from_name: Rick

body:
My God, this is turning into a broken record.  If this is the sort of thing that takes up the majority of the mailing list, maybe I should unsubscribe.

Why can't this be hashed out on the Talk page or on individual User talk Pages?

RickK

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subject:
License Incompatibilities (was Re: [Wikitech-l] CIA Factbook
 Slurping)

body:
On 6 Aug 2003, Erik Moeller wrote:

> Andre-
> > To publish something under dual license, is not "expressly provided for
> > under the GNU/FDL", and it "offers terms on the work that alter the terms of
> > the CC license".
>
> Not at all. It is the licensee who picks the license which he wants to
> accept and ignores the other one. The publisher can offer as many licenses
> as he wants -- compare Trolltech's licensing policy: GPL or proprietary.

Yes, the _publisher_ can offer as many licenses as he wants, but the _copier_
can redistribute it under only one one license, namely the license that he
has accepted.

Andre Engels


body:
I believe it was only here because people on the
relevant talk pages told RK and JT to take it
elsewhere They might have misinterpreted that to mean
here. :)

-S-

--- Rick <giantsrick13 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> My God, this is turning into a broken record.  If
> this is the sort of thing that takes up the majority
> of the mailing list, maybe I should unsubscribe.
>
> Why can't this be hashed out on the Talk page or on
> individual User talk Pages?
>
> RickK

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from_name: Oliver Pereira

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikimedia.org

body:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, limholt at excite.com wrote:

> I like the sample the Brion made from Magnus logo for Wikibooks. That is
> the one currently at http://wikimedia.org.

I don't like the slogan.

"Learn free. Think free."

It sounds grammatically strange to me. Maybe I'm just a bit slow on the
uptake, but it took me a while to work out how it could even be
grammatically correct... How about just saying, "Free books!" :)

Oliver

+-------------------------------------------+
| Oliver Pereira                            |
| Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science |
| University of Southampton                 |
| omp199 at ecs.soton.ac.uk                    |
+-------------------------------------------+


from_name: Matthias Jordan

body:
Hi, folks!

Nick Reinking wrote:

> Hey, this is Marumari - how does one go about banning a user account

I guess you could simply change it's password and eMail address. Then
the account is still there but cannot be used (unless the user guesses
the right password). The only question left is: what is banning of user
accounts worth if everybody can get as many accounts as she wants?

Bye!

Matthias


body:
JT wrote a thesis on RK's history.

Just to be clear -- those quotes were just from the
*comment line -- not from the talk pages, right?

-Steve (trying hard to become the shepherd) Vertigo

> RK's attacks on me are just part of a long long
> pattern. As the list below
> shows, he has abused MyRedDIce, Anthere,
> Sirubenstein, Ezra Wax, 172, Fred
> Bauder, Stevertigo, Jennifer, GrahamN, Clutch,
> Quasar, Danny, Ed Poor, Julie
> Kemp and many others. He has called them 'vandals',
> 'anti-semite', 'jew
> baiters', etc etc etc.
>
>
> Here are just a few of his other attacks on people
> for being supposedly
> 'anti-semite', etc.
>
> # 15:38, 3 Jul 2003 Talk:Anti-Semitism (Sysops,
> please awar: MArtin
> (MyRedDice) is censoring and deleting other user's
> Talk discussion. I am
> concerned about his attempt to hide his repeated
> acts of Jew-baiting.)
>
> # 19:07, 1 Jul 2003 Gaia philosophy (Reverting
> Anthere;'s POV violations,
> again. This is the English Wikipedia, and not
> Anthere's personal wish list
> of she wishes English speakers would use this term.
> Please ban that vandal.
> Seriously.)
>
> # 19:12, 25 Jun 2003 Talk:Judeo-Islamic tradition
> (Sltr, goodbye. I am tired
> of your arrogance.)
>
> # 01:58, 2 Jul 2003 Jew (Removing Ezra Wax's
> egregiously incorrect claims.
> Is he trolling? Making this stuff up? He isn't even
> representing the
> Orthodox POV. He's just wacky.)
>
> # 03:10, 24 Mar 2003 Chiropractic medicine
> (Reverting dishonest
> introduction. Fred Bauder, stop lying about the
> beliefs of chiropracters.)
>
> # 17:15, 21 Mar 2003 Chiropractic medicine
> (VANDALISM AERT. Reverting
> vandalism by Fred Bauder. Sysops have been
> notified.)
>
> # 19:41, 20 Mar 2003 Chiropractic medicine
> (Vandalism alert. Removing Fred's
> bald-faced lies. He keeps falsely claiming that an
> anti-Chiropractic report
> supports chiropractice. This is grossly dishonest.)
>
> # 02:05, 19 Mar 2003 Rachel Corrie (Stop
> pro-Palestinian advocacy. No
> Palestinian nation exists. You can't make up facts
> that you *wish* were
> true.)
>
> # 19:41, 18 Mar 2003 International Solidarity
> Movement (Removing the
> sanitized version. This group publicly says that it
> is Ok to murder Jews.
> Let's be clear about that.)
>
> # 19:41, 18 Mar 2003 International Solidarity
> Movement (Removing the
> sanitized version. This group publicly says that it
> is Ok to murder Jews.
> Let's be clear about that.)
>
> # 01:32, 4 Mar 2003 Talk:Idol worship (Why is
> Stevertigo threatening me, for
> simply asking him to stop abusing Wikipedia? This is
> not a forum for his
> anti-Zionist rants.)
>
> # 16:44, 26 Feb 2003 Ethnocentrism (reverting
> GrahamN's anti-Semitic
> vandalism. Stop lying about the Jews, and claiming
> that they alone have
> ethnocentrism.)
>
> # 15:12, 23 Feb 2003 Anti-Zionism (Restoring NPOV
> version. Removing
> Jennifer's anti-Semitic attack. Removing Noam
> Chomsky's bald-faced lies that
> Zionism used to be against a Jewish State. Does
> anyone other than Jew-haters
> believe that?)
>
> # 15:45, 22 Feb 2003 Jewish ethnocentrism (Removing
> the introduction, which
> was an anti-Semitic lie. sin't anyone here bothered
> by the non-stop Jew
> bashing?)
>
> # 15:38, 22 Feb 2003 Anti-Zionism (Restoring
> article. Removing Stevertigo's
> bald-faced lies and subtle anti-Semitism. )
>
> # 21:24, 20 Feb 2003 Jewish ethnocentrism (VANDALISM
> ALERT. Clutch is STILL
> filling Wikipedia with anti-Semitic rants. Why do
> Wikipedia Sysops refuse to
> ban him? Please, stop this insanity.)
>
> # 03:49, 14 Feb 2003 Ehud Barak (if someone wants to
> create this page, fine.
> But the hateful hatchet job violates ALL Wikipedia
> standards and protocols.
> Stevertigo, please get over your obsession with
> Jews, or go away. )
>
> # 16:06, 11 Feb 2003 Islam and anti-Semitism
> (Restoring a page. Reverting
> vandalism. Boy, are some people here obsessed about
> the Jews. See a
> therapist.)
>
> # 01:03, 9 Feb 2003 Al Naqba (Deleting deliberate
> biased and anti-Israeli
> polemics. Will the Jewhaters here please understand
> that Wikipedia is not a
> Jew-bashing forum?)
>
> # 00:55, 9 Feb 2003 Arabs and anti-Semitism
> (Reverting anti-Semitic
> vandalism by Quasar. His obsession with Jews is not
> healthy, and I mean that
> seriously. Someone needs to stop his abuse of
> Wikipedia for anti-Semitic
> attacks.)
>
> # 00:52, 9 Feb 2003 Palestinian terrorism (Reverting
> Quasar's bias and
> polemics. This guys needs some therapy. His
> obsession about Jews is not
> healthy.)
>
> # 19:22, 7 Feb 2003 Talk:Jewish ethnocentrism
> (Please, ban Stevertigo. His
> obessession about Jews is clearly out of control.)
>
> # 19:15, 7 Feb 2003 Jewish ethnocentrism (Deleted
> article. Its sole purpose
> was to incite anti-Semitism.
>
> # 00:43, 6 Feb 2003 Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress
> (Stevertigo is creating
> a deliberately false article, Semitism. Jew-baiting
> does not belong in an
> encyclopedia.)
>
> # 00:39, 6 Feb 2003 Semitism (Anti-Semitic lies
> deleted. Sysops, please ban
> the author of this article. Wikipedia should not be
> used for Jew-baiting. )
> Wikipedia is not the appropriate forum for
> anti-Semites to obsess about
> Jews.)
>
> # 00:50, 9 Feb 2003 Terrorism against Israelis
> (Removing Quasar's
> anti-Semitic vandalism and NPOV violations. The
> Jew-haters just keep coming
> and coming this week. :()
>
> # 15:11, 20 Jan 2003 Timeline of Jewish history
> (VANDALISM alert. Danny
> keeps vandalizing tis page, and lying about the
> history books sources it is
> based on. Please ban this troll.)
>
> # 19:26, 18 Dec 2002 George Washington (Removing a
> visciously anti-Semitic
> attack. Why do people try to use Wikipedia to
> literally incite the murder of
> Jews? This non-stop hatespeech against Jews is
> damaging Wikipedia's public
> image.)
>
> # 02:41, 1 Dec 2002 Talk:Judeo-Christian tradition
> (Removing a childish
> attempt to taunt Jews by attacking their faith.
> Wikipedia is not a
> playground, so 6 year olds shouldn't be playing
> here... )
>
> # 16:33, 21 Nov 2002 Richard Wagner (removing a
> dishonest and misleading
> apologetic for Wagner's anti-Semitism. Come on guys,
> this is immoral. No one
> on Wikipedia does this for ANY other ethnic group.)
>
> # 16:02, 20 Nov 2002 Israel (You guys just don't get
> it, do you? We will not
> let you violate NPOV by inserting your anti-Israel
> polemics. Give up this
> vandalism.)
>
> # 01:31, 20 Nov 2002 User talk:RK (Ed, you have
> crossed the line. Stop
> making apologetics for outright Jew-hatred and
> anti-Semitism, and stop
> attacking the victims of hatespeech.)
>
> # 17:54, 5 Sep 2002 Talk:Anti-Semitism (Countering
> more of GrahamN's
> anti-Semitic outrburts against the Jews. Please ban
> this person.)
>
> # 07:55, 29 Jul 2002 Talk:Anti-Semitism
> (Anti-semites use Newspeak to
> rewrite the dictionary to further their goals. But
> that is not NPOV useage,
> and so should be noted in the text.)
>
> # 19:48, 3 Jun 2002 Talk:Persecution of Christians
> (Please ban
> "ark". He keeps vandalizing articles with
> anti-semitic
> hatespeech.)
>
> # 17:52, 30 Dec 2001 Talk:Jews in the New Testament
> (SJK's anti-Semitic lies
> and historical revisionism have no place in this
> project. )
> How many people on wikipedia does RK have to libel
> before something is done
> about him.
>
> RK's lies about me and gross libelous distortions
> are nothing new. Tomorrow,
> next week and next month he will be accusing someone
> else of jew-bashing and
> anti-semitism, which in reality means anything who
> expresses an opinion
> different to him. As I have said I am thoroughly fed
> up of having to deal
> with this obnoxious arrogant person and his wild
> accusations against
> everyone, I have merely tried to apply academic
> standards of NPOV and work
> with people. I am thoroughly fed up having to put up
> with vicious bile and
> blatent lies from RK in the process.
>
> JT
>
>
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Instead of Wikipedia "Volunteer Firefighters" -- I
propose we call them (us) "shepherds."

-S-

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:
>Instead of Wikipedia "Volunteer Firefighters" -- I
>propose we call them (us) "shepherds."

As a recovering Assemblies of God/700 Club member/Young Republican, that
sounds rather paternal; so everybody else are sheep?

-- mav


body:
Just want to say that I am completely ignoring this and similar flame threads.
So if somebody I respect is being slandered or lied about, then my silence on
that is because I didn't read the message to begin with.

I suggest other people ignore these flames as well - maybe then the people
doing the flamming will get a hint and take their battles to personal email.

--Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> As a recovering Assemblies of God/700 Club
> member/Young Republican, that
> sounds rather paternal; so everybody else are sheep?

Im sorry -- I wish you well on your recovery :)
The way I would answer that is this -- "shepherdship"
doesnt imply that people are lemmings...

Sheep allow people to lead them because theyre
domesticable -- domesticability -- as one of its
criteria -- requires a supplantable heirarchy.  Its a
relationship -- not a blind sort of groupthink.

To deal with the idea on more "scriptural" grounds --
as an analogy the passage where God gives man
"dominion over the beasts in the land birds in the air
fish in the sea" --- "Dominion" sounds kina like
domination -- in fact what it means is shepherdship --

There are good shepherds and bad ones... Generally we
aspire to be gooder ones. :) "Guardianship" in that
passage might be a better word, perhaps. But
"guardian" loses its teaching aspect.

-S-
Respectfully
-S-

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


from_name: K Forstner

subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
Thanks for letting me know that my watchlist contains 1655 pages. If only I
could access it. Did the announcement that the page would be disabled escape
my notice? What is going to be disabled next? Wikipedia?

Sorry for this emotional outburst, but if you're in the middle of
cross-referencing, this is more than inconvenient.

KF


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] CNN article on Wikipedia

body:
Got to love video editing... I was talking about Hong Kong entries at
the time, but of course it came off like WP was only updated a few times
an hour.  I cringed too when I saw the way it came off. :)

-Andrew

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-admin at wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of tarquin
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 5:39 AM
> To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] CNN article on Wikipedia
>
>
>
>
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> > tarquin wrote:
> >
> >> Great stuff :)
> >> But "just a few edits an hour"?
> >
> >
> > Only off by a factor of sixty... Not bad for CNN. :)
> >
> the professor says that himself in the interview in the video -- I
> thought he was a wikipedia regular.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki> pedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wikimedia.org

body:
An issue -- Ive on occasion made some shortcut
redirects to wikipedia:articles that have long names
like wikipedia:votes for deletion has a shortcut
wikipedia:vfd (should be wiki:vfd)  Sometimes because
some of these pages are hard to find in a pinch. It
then occured to me to look at all the scatttered
wikipedia pages  -- here they are (unfiltered - there
are some subuserpages that might have some relevant
material) -- the issue is how to approach it. Shouldnt
all "wikipedia" pages be Wikipedia:articles? There are
some inconsistencies. Wiki is too general, Wikipedia
is too long -- why not just WP:article from now on?
Why not shorthand redirects to the lengthy titles ---
WP:VFD -- WP:WINAD -- WP:BWM -- WP:FOW --WP:WCom
--WP:Utils --WP:Hist etc... then all the non
Wikipedia/WP pages can be deleted (fixing prior links
of course) and then a wikipedia:article on all the
wikipedia:articles. :)  In any case these are a mess
and its about time these were pruned and organized.

Submissiously,
-S-

And I dont even think this is a full list for
Wikispecific articles ...

# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership (8548 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Encyclopedia
links solicited (922 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Sample
solicitation (884 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Another
sample solicitation (1457 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Ideas for
articles about Wikipedia and other press events (1362
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Encyclopedia
list links solicited (529 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Big traffic
links solicited (487 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/About.com
(2061 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Sample
solicitation 3 (615 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Newsgroups
(430 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Building Wikipedia membership/Best of
sites links solicited (380 bytes)
# User:Ben Finney/Wikipedia markup (7345 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia pages/Chalkboard
candidates (45 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia (10463 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Search
engines--English (2012 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Search
engines--Non-English (2198 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Encyclopedias, etc.
(1541 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Specialized search
engines (757 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Best of... websites
(989 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Other wikis (1902
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Science and
technology (1032 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/College course pages
(2604 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Literature (708
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Computer-related
content websites (970 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Religion (187 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Social sciences (794
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Personal home pages
and bookmarks (5581 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Technology
weblogs--Non-English (1795 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Other public weblogs
and news logs (1933 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Technology
weblogs--English (1816 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Personal weblogs
(2535 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Discussion forum
mentions (5947 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/September 11 pages
(1911 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Miscellaneous (2176
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Philosophy (340
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/History (360 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Education (121 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Games (109 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Friends of Wikipedia/Websites using
Wikipedia articles (305 b
# Wikipedia policy/General discussion (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia policy/Blocked IPs (33 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Like this (733 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Proposal for an
Encyclopdian Recycling Endeavor (16881 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Search Engine (33
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/How to write
non-american names (13240 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responding to the
Critics (50 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Wikipedia quality
(1390 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Folklore, Myth, and
Religion (7632 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Best debates (1189
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Destroy Wikipedia (34487 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/PV of a Science of
Nature editor (3589 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Larrys Big Reply
(11443 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia (4543 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Destroy Wikipedia, Screw with the GFDL (8166 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia, Understand Bias (3537 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia, Be in Charge and Be Humble (3406
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia, Redesign the Wikipedia Software as
Community (9402 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia, Make Big Plans on Wikipedia (2439
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia, Avoid Cabals (4193 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia, Be Respectful but Firm (3681 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia, Follow the Spirit of the GFDL (2488
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/SJKs
Wikipedia-Specific License proposal (8302 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to
Build Wikipedia, Appreciate Idiosyncracy (3069 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Would Larry and Cunc
just drop it please (675 bytes)
# Wikipedia Commentary/Wiki is not paper (33 bytes)
# Talk:Why Wikipedia is so great (54 bytes)
# Why Wikipedia is not so great (53 bytes
# Wikipedia PHP script (34 bytes)
# Wikipedia PHP script/The main script (34 bytes)
# Wikipedia PHP script/The upload script (34 bytes)
# Wikipedia PHP script/The alt main script (34 bytes)
# Wikipedia PHP script/The mysql sql ddl (34 bytes)
# Wikipedia PHP script/The wiki stylesheet (34 bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia contains spoilers (58 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia Trivia Part 1 (820 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia Trivia Part 1/Answer 1 (187
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia Trivia Part 1/Answer 2 (187
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia Trivia Part 1/Answer 3 (189
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia Trivia Part 1/Answer 4 (180
bytes)
# Wikipedia banners and logos (43 bytes)
# Wikipedia approval mechanism (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia policy on permanent deletion of articles
(39 bytes)
# Wikipedia policy on permanent deletion of pages (39
bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia policy on permanent deletion of pages
(65 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities (33 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Page titles to be deleted (42
bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Page titles to be deleted Talk
(47 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Controversial subjects (52
bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Controversial subjects Talk (57
bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Navigation links (40 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Pages to be rewritten or deleted
(47 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia utilities/Old Page titles to be
deleted talk (9617 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Page titles which have been
deleted (36 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Deleted page titles (36 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Size of Wikipedia (9562 bytes)
# Wikipedia Chat (35 bytes)
# Wikipedia cocktail guide (31 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia press release 1 (4502 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia press release 1/Links (520
bytes)
# User:Chato/Wikipedia Usability Report (5906 bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia commentary/Making fun of Britannica
(3473 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia commentary/Why we have sexuality
(2587 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is so great (5411 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Why Wikipedia is so great (6317
bytes)
# Wikipedia:Tips on contributing to Wikipedia (51
bytes)
# User:The Cunctator/How to build Wikipedia (5616
bytes)
# WIkipedia Software (34 bytes)
# Wikipedia Software (34 bytes)
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bytes)
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# Wikipedia:Wikipedia approval mechanism (22706 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia policy (35 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Press release: Wikipedia surpass (69 by
# Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia (28 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia FAQ (27 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia FAQ (14096 bytes)
# Wikipedia:How to explore Wikipedia (1315 bytes)
# Contributing to Wikipedia (49 bytes)
# What is Wikipedia (27 bytes)
# Talk:Jimbo Wales/Advertising on Wikipedia (48 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary (4570 bytes)
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# Talk:Wikipedia/Article a day queue (688 bytes)
# User:Brion VIBBER/Maps and images for Wikipedia
(5005 bytes)
# User:The Cunctator/How to destroy Wikipedia (3120
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# User talk:Brion VIBBER/Maps and images for Wikipedia
(1688 bytes)
# Wikipedia deletion (42 bytes)
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# Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Day (1487 bytes)
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# Talk:Wikipedia utilities/Page titles to be deleted
(6921 bytes)
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bytes)
# Wikipedia feature request (40 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Don't use external links where we'll want
Wikipedia links (758 bytes)
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want Wikipedia links (1045 bytes)
# Index of flowers with entries in the Wikipedia (35
bytes)
# Wikipedia naming conventions (45 bytes)
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(1938 bytes)
# Wikipedia naming convention (45 bytes)
# Wikipedia probation (46 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia pages (48 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia Pages/Campaign
Against Covert Action (81 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia
pages/OldWikiPediaLogo (38 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia pages/Campaign
Against Covert Action (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia
pages/WhichWikiShouldWeUse (42 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia
pages/ArbitraryLinkingDiscussion (48 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia
pages/WikiPediaReasonable (45 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Historical Wikipedia pages/Larrys Wedding
Card (42 bytes)
# Wikipedia feature requests (40 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Trivia Part 1 (118 bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia/Magic Button (87 bytes)
# User:Jan Hidders/Wikipedia syntax (2540 bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia PHP script (39 bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia utilities/find or fix a stub (378
bytes)
# Wikipedia contains spoilers (40 bytes)
# Wikipedia statistics (35 bytes)
# Wikipedia Manual of Style (40 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements (38 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/find or fix a stub (43 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Pages needing attention (48
bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Personal subpages to be deleted
(56 bytes)
# Wikipedia statistics/Size of Wikipedia (42 bytes)
# Wikipedia traffic (32 bytes)
# Wikipedia/Most popular pages (34 bytes)
# Wikipedia statistics/What Google likes (74 bytes)
# Wikipedia statistics/Referrers (34 bytes)
# Adding Wikipedia articles to Nupedia (45 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia medicine standards (2874 bytes)
# Wikipedia:How to add content to Wikipedia with
minimal effort (5282 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia banners and logos (43 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Size of Wikipedia/Dataset (41 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Size of Wikipedia (6199 bytes)
# Malcolm Farmer/How many Wikipedia pages are there
(69 bytes)
# Wikipedia/Article a day queue (39 bytes)
# Chato/Wikipedia Usability Report (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia:The art of Wikipedia weeding (46 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Weeding Wild Wikipedia (7032 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia Militia (49 bytes)
# Wikipedia is not (45 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Wikipedia policy on permanent deletion of
pages (39 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia policy on permanent
deletion of pages (67 bytes)
# List of birds on Wikipedia (27 bytes)
# Wikipedia/Magic Button (37 bytes)
# Wikipedia:German Wikipedia language links (1802
bytes)
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bytes)
# Wikipedia:List of articles in the Wikipedia
namespace (45093 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:List of articles in Wikipedia:
namespace (957 bytes)
# Wikipedia Projects (33 bytes)
# Wikipedia gremlins (43 bytes)
# Wikipedia:Meta-Wikipedia (1208 bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia Announcements (43 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/January 2001 (51 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/February 2001 (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/March 2001 (49 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/April 2001 (49 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/May 2001 (47 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/June 2001 (48 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/July 2001 (48 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/August 2001 (50 bytes)
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# Wikipedia Announcements/October 2001 (51 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/November 2001 (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements/December 2001 (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia Annoucements January 2002 (51 bytes)
# Wikipedia Annoucements February 2002 (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements March 2002 (49 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements April 2002 (49 bytes)
# Wikipedia Announcements May 2002 (47 bytes)
# How does Wikipedia relate to Nupedia (45 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia (45 bytes)
# Wikipedia Utilities (33 bytes)
# Wikipedia Village Pump (36 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Most common Wikipedia faux pas (1108
bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Size of Wikipedia/Dataset (898 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Games (51 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Search engines--English (69
bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Search engines--Non-English (73
bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Encyclopedias, etc. (65 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Specialized search engines (72
bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Best of... websites (65 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Press coverage--English (38
bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Press coverage--Non-English (38
bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Computer-related content
websites (79 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/History (53 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Education (55 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Literature (56 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Religion (54 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Philosophy (56 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Social sciences (61 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Science and technology (68
bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Technology weblogs--English (73
bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Discussion forum mentions (71
bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Personal weblogs (62 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Other public weblogs and news
logs (80 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Technology weblogs--Non-English
(77 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/September 11 pages (64 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Miscellaneous (59 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Websites using Wikipedia
articles (79 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Other wikis (57 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/College course pages (66 bytes)
# Friends of Wikipedia/Personal home pages and
bookmarks (79 bytes)
# Building Wikipedia membership (54 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Destroy
Wikipedia (83 bytes)
# Wikipedia subpages pros and cons/Evaluation (48
bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Proposal for an Encyclopdian
Recycling Endeavor (93 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Search Engine (33 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia, Make Big Plans on Wikipedia (110 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia, Redesign the Wikipedia Software as
Community (127 bytes)
# Building Wikipedia membership/Ideas for articles
about Wikipedia and other press events (112 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/SJKs Wikipedia-Specific License
proposal (86 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Destroy
Wikipedia, Screw with the GFDL (104 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia, Be in Charge and Be Humble (109 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia, Understand Bias (98 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia, Follow the Spirit of the GFDL (112 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia, Appreciate Idiosyncracy (106 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia, Avoid Cabals (95 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia, Be Respectful but Firm (105 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responses to How to Build
Wikipedia (81 bytes)
# The future of Wikipedia (48 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Wikipedia quality (63 bytes)
# Wikipedia/Nupedia2Wikipedia (45 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Like this (55 bytes)
# Building Wikipedia membership/Sample solicitation 3
(76 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Responding to the Critics (71
bytes)
# Building Wikipedia membership/Another sample
solicitation (82 bytes)
# Wikipedia press release 1/Links (56 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Would Larry and Cunc just drop
it please (86 bytes)
# Building Wikipedia membership/About.com (64 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Best debates (58 bytes)
# Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz/Proposed templates for
Wikipedia pages (83 bytes)
# Wikipedia Trivia Part 1 (48 bytes)
# Wikipedia/Logos and slogans (41 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Why we have sexuality (67
bytes)
# Words that should not be used in wikipedia articles
(38 bytes)
# Wikipedia press release 1 (50 bytes)
# Adding Wikipedia articles to Nupedia/Help (45 bytes)
# Building Wikipedia membership/Best of sites links
solicited (84 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/PV of a Science of Nature
editor (78 bytes)
# Gareth Owen/How to destroy Wikipedia (56 bytes)
# Talk:Words that should not be used in wikipedia
articles (81 bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia Trivia Part 1 (53 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/How to write non-american names
(77 bytes)
# Wikipedia Cocktail Guide (32 bytes)
# Talk:Wikipedia Cocktail Guide (37 bytes)
# Wikipedia utilities/Old Page titles to be deleted
talk (79 bytes)
# Wikipedia subpages pros and cons (43 bytes)
# Wikipedia Trivia Part 1/Answer 4 (57 bytes)
# Wikipedia Trivia Part 1/Answer 3 (57 bytes)
# Wikipedia Trivia Part 1/Answer 2 (57 bytes)
# Wikipedia Trivia Part 1/Answer 1 (57 bytes)
# Wikipedia Cookbook (396 bytes)
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# Wikipedia NEWS/June 13 16 2001 (55 bytes)
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solicited (82 bytes)
# Building Wikipedia membership/Encyclopedia list
links solicited (88 bytes)
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(74 bytes)
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solicited (83 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Folklore, Myth, and Religion
(74 bytes)
# Building Wikipedia membership/Newsgroups (65 bytes)
# Wikipedia commentary/Larrys Big Reply (62 bytes)
# Wikipedia arranged by topic (52 bytes)
# Wikipedia/Article a Day Talk (44 bytes)
# Wikipedia/Most popular pages October 2001 (66 bytes)
# Wikipedia talk:Friends of Wikipedia (2019 bytes)
# Upload images to Wikipedia (28 bytes)
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dead one on the nose each and every double trey/Talk
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# Wikipedia is not paper (33 bytes)
# Wikipedia:History of Wikipedia bots (2130 bytes)
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minimal effort (248 bytes)
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coverage--Non-English (38 bytes)
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from_name: Jimmy O'Regan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] What If?

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Some of the debates are extremely annoying, such as the recent
> Robert/Jtdirl dispute, and the ones that complain about yet another
> reincarnation of Lir.  Perhaps we could have a whineopedia mailing
> list (or if our Brits prefer a wingeopedia).

I thought it was whinge? Never mind, just a minor w{h}in{g}e

> A moderator on this list could redirect any qualifying letters to that
> list.  Or perhaps, to save the sanity of the moderator, an anti-spam
> device could make the diversion. "Lir" and "anti-Semitism" are
> canditates for words that would trigger the diversion.  Anyone who
> likes receiving this kind of message wuld be free to subscribe to the
> whineopedia list. :-)

Oh yeah; then we'll start to see .sig blocks resembling the Carnivore
trippers - "Lir Black Widow pro-arab Israel anti-Semitism Zionist" etc.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Shepherds

body:
Talk about catch 22 -- Mav asked a fair question -- I
answered it in two languages -- sciencespeak and
nondemomitational/nonreligious quasi-byblespeak -- and
apparently neither of these was intelligible to at
least one person on this list. Go figure.

-S-

--- tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:
>
>
> Steve Vertigo wrote:
>
> >--- Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>As a recovering Assemblies of God/700 Club
> >>member/Young Republican, that
> >>sounds rather paternal; so everybody else are
> sheep?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >To deal with the idea on more "scriptural" grounds
> --
> >as an analogy the passage where God gives man
> >"dominion over the beasts in the land birds in the
> air
> >fish in the sea" --- "Dominion" sounds kina like
> >domination -- in fact what it means is shepherdship
> --
> >
> >
> >
> a good reason to object -- the reference to biblical
> stuff
> (and sadly some people *do* interpret it as
> domination)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia WTF

body:
why is the wiki screwing up -- giving me
"Wikipedia is a multilingual
[[ejfdk???????????????fdfDFDfa?????DF" ?
(paraphrasing.)

Only happens when Im logged in. Maybe it go away
manana.
-S-

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from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia WTF

body:
Steve Vertigo wrote:

>why is the wiki screwing up -- giving me
>"Wikipedia is a multilingual
>[[ejfdk???????????????fdfDFDfa?????DF" ?
>(paraphrasing.)
>
Database was doing some funky stuff. After much cursing and beating,
it's restarted and seems to be behaving. If you see any more such
corrupted pages, revert them to the last good edit.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: james duffy

body:
>Ec wrote: I do find the whole argument tedious to follow.  The first
>paragraph of Stan's quote of Robert's complaints establishes only a lack of
>specificity in Robert's claim.  The article history and talk page for
>[[Israel]] doesn't help at all, and I really don't have the time to
>understand enough what is at the root of the argument to be helpful.

I agree the argument is tedious. I have debated the issue on the talk page
with people. I changed the add-in text to accomodate what they said. The
page currently contains a version of what I wrote written by another user,
to which I made minor adjustments. It has not been reverted or deleted.

Robert's contribution to the debate was to do blanket reversions to the
article as he wants it without discussion, make no comment on the talk page
but to make wild and ludicrous allegations on the wiki-list. In our
discussions on this and on related matters, he has accused me of
anti-semitism (which is ludicrous. I have just blocked a user who was
vandalising articles on wiki, putting POV rants calling Israelis liars and
murderers. I also requested the blocking of a user who filled up pages with
anti-Israeli rants, including redirecting the Israel page to [[Zionist
entity]]. I not only reverted the redirect I deleted Zionist entity /twice/
rather than leaving it as an offensive POV redirect showing up, then set up
a ban page for the user, spent over an hour going through his edits and
NPOVing or deleting them (most were beyond salvage and were simply deleted).
I then put all the evidence on this list with a request for his immediate
banning, which Jimbo agreed to. Would I have done that if I was 'pro-Arab'
and 'anti-semitic'?

Robert in a letter here accused me of calling Zionists racist. I never said
that. I quoted the user above assaying that, pointed out /all/ his
anti-semitic rants and Zionist-bashing, in the letter calling for his
banning. Since when is defending articles on Israel from attack and getting
a Zionist-basher banned calling Zionists rascist? It has been repeatedly
pointed out to Robert by others that he is mixing up the user who was
Zionist -bashing with me and treating the other person's opinions as mine.
Yet he has not once apologised for grossly defaming me, simply resent his
attack again and again.

I have discussed my edit on the relevant talk page. The version currently on
the page was written by another user, with some minor tweats to the text by
me. One user chose unilaterally to delete stuff without giving one word of
an explanation to anyone, and that is RK. I have been discussing the points
at issue, explaining them, etc. He just reverts and then accuses /me/ of
disrespecting everyone else.

Having slandered Anthere for weeks with his abuse, then me with gross and
libelous distortions of my opinions, RK is now doing the same to others. He
has just took BL at [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AQibya_massacre]
''By what Nazi like standards do you operate? Please cease and desist in
your hatespeech.'' He had previously told BL on the same page ''BL, stop
lying about murdering Jews.''

RK's attacks on me are just part of a long long pattern. As the list below
shows, he has abused MyRedDIce, Anthere, Sirubenstein, Ezra Wax, 172, Fred
Bauder, Stevertigo, Jennifer, GrahamN, Clutch, Quasar, Danny, Ed Poor, Julie
Kemp and many others. He has called them 'vandals', 'anti-semite', 'jew
baiters', etc etc etc.

Here are just a few of his other attacks on people for being supposedly
'anti-semite', etc.

# 15:38, 3 Jul 2003 Talk:Anti-Semitism (Sysops, please awar: MArtin
(MyRedDice) is censoring and deleting other user's Talk discussion. I am
concerned about his attempt to hide his repeated acts of Jew-baiting.)

# 19:07, 1 Jul 2003 Gaia philosophy (Reverting Anthere;'s POV violations,
again. This is the English Wikipedia, and not Anthere's personal wish list
of she wishes English speakers would use this term. Please ban that vandal.
Seriously.)

# 19:12, 25 Jun 2003 Talk:Judeo-Islamic tradition (Sltr, goodbye. I am tired
of your arrogance.)

# 01:58, 2 Jul 2003 Jew (Removing Ezra Wax's egregiously incorrect claims.
Is he trolling? Making this stuff up? He isn't even representing the
Orthodox POV. He's just wacky.)

# 03:10, 24 Mar 2003 Chiropractic medicine (Reverting dishonest
introduction. Fred Bauder, stop lying about the beliefs of chiropracters.)

# 17:15, 21 Mar 2003 Chiropractic medicine (VANDALISM AERT. Reverting
vandalism by Fred Bauder. Sysops have been notified.)

# 19:41, 20 Mar 2003 Chiropractic medicine (Vandalism alert. Removing Fred's
bald-faced lies. He keeps falsely claiming that an anti-Chiropractic report
supports chiropractice. This is grossly dishonest.)

# 02:05, 19 Mar 2003 Rachel Corrie (Stop pro-Palestinian advocacy. No
Palestinian nation exists. You can't make up facts that you *wish* were
true.)

# 19:41, 18 Mar 2003 International Solidarity Movement (Removing the
sanitized version. This group publicly says that it is Ok to murder Jews.
Let's be clear about that.)

# 19:41, 18 Mar 2003 International Solidarity Movement (Removing the
sanitized version. This group publicly says that it is Ok to murder Jews.
Let's be clear about that.)

# 01:32, 4 Mar 2003 Talk:Idol worship (Why is Stevertigo threatening me, for
simply asking him to stop abusing Wikipedia? This is not a forum for his
anti-Zionist rants.)

# 16:44, 26 Feb 2003 Ethnocentrism (reverting GrahamN's anti-Semitic
vandalism. Stop lying about the Jews, and claiming that they alone have
ethnocentrism.)

# 15:12, 23 Feb 2003 Anti-Zionism (Restoring NPOV version. Removing
Jennifer's anti-Semitic attack. Removing Noam Chomsky's bald-faced lies that
Zionism used to be against a Jewish State. Does anyone other than Jew-haters
believe that?)

# 15:45, 22 Feb 2003 Jewish ethnocentrism (Removing the introduction, which
was an anti-Semitic lie. sin't anyone here bothered by the non-stop Jew
bashing?)

# 15:38, 22 Feb 2003 Anti-Zionism (Restoring article. Removing Stevertigo's
bald-faced lies and subtle anti-Semitism. )

# 21:24, 20 Feb 2003 Jewish ethnocentrism (VANDALISM ALERT. Clutch is STILL
filling Wikipedia with anti-Semitic rants. Why do Wikipedia Sysops refuse to
ban him? Please, stop this insanity.)

# 03:49, 14 Feb 2003 Ehud Barak (if someone wants to create this page, fine.
But the hateful hatchet job violates ALL Wikipedia standards and protocols.
Stevertigo, please get over your obsession with Jews, or go away. )

# 16:06, 11 Feb 2003 Islam and anti-Semitism (Restoring a page. Reverting
vandalism. Boy, are some people here obsessed about the Jews. See a
therapist.)

# 01:03, 9 Feb 2003 Al Naqba (Deleting deliberate biased and anti-Israeli
polemics. Will the Jewhaters here please understand that Wikipedia is not a
Jew-bashing forum?)

# 00:55, 9 Feb 2003 Arabs and anti-Semitism (Reverting anti-Semitic
vandalism by Quasar. His obsession with Jews is not healthy, and I mean that
seriously. Someone needs to stop his abuse of Wikipedia for anti-Semitic
attacks.)

# 00:52, 9 Feb 2003 Palestinian terrorism (Reverting Quasar's bias and
polemics. This guys needs some therapy. His obsession about Jews is not
healthy.)

# 19:22, 7 Feb 2003 Talk:Jewish ethnocentrism (Please, ban Stevertigo. His
obessession about Jews is clearly out of control.)

# 19:15, 7 Feb 2003 Jewish ethnocentrism (Deleted article. Its sole purpose
was to incite anti-Semitism.

# 00:43, 6 Feb 2003 Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress (Stevertigo is creating
a deliberately false article, Semitism. Jew-baiting does not belong in an
encyclopedia.)

# 00:39, 6 Feb 2003 Semitism (Anti-Semitic lies deleted. Sysops, please ban
the author of this article. Wikipedia should not be used for Jew-baiting. )
Wikipedia is not the appropriate forum for anti-Semites to obsess about
Jews.)

# 00:50, 9 Feb 2003 Terrorism against Israelis (Removing Quasar's
anti-Semitic vandalism and NPOV violations. The Jew-haters just keep coming
and coming this week. :()

# 15:11, 20 Jan 2003 Timeline of Jewish history (VANDALISM alert. Danny
keeps vandalizing tis page, and lying about the history books sources it is
based on. Please ban this troll.)

# 19:26, 18 Dec 2002 George Washington (Removing a visciously anti-Semitic
attack. Why do people try to use Wikipedia to literally incite the murder of
Jews? This non-stop hatespeech against Jews is damaging Wikipedia's public
image.)

# 02:41, 1 Dec 2002 Talk:Judeo-Christian tradition (Removing a childish
attempt to taunt Jews by attacking their faith. Wikipedia is not a
playground, so 6 year olds shouldn't be playing here... )

# 16:33, 21 Nov 2002 Richard Wagner (removing a dishonest and misleading
apologetic for Wagner's anti-Semitism. Come on guys, this is immoral. No one
on Wikipedia does this for ANY other ethnic group.)

# 16:02, 20 Nov 2002 Israel (You guys just don't get it, do you? We will not
let you violate NPOV by inserting your anti-Israel polemics. Give up this
vandalism.)

# 01:31, 20 Nov 2002 User talk:RK (Ed, you have crossed the line. Stop
making apologetics for outright Jew-hatred and anti-Semitism, and stop
attacking the victims of hatespeech.)

# 17:54, 5 Sep 2002 Talk:Anti-Semitism (Countering more of GrahamN's
anti-Semitic outrburts against the Jews. Please ban this person.)

# 07:55, 29 Jul 2002 Talk:Anti-Semitism (Anti-semites use Newspeak to
rewrite the dictionary to further their goals. But that is not NPOV useage,
and so should be noted in the text.)

# 19:48, 3 Jun 2002 Talk:Persecution of Christians (Please ban
"ark". He keeps vandalizing articles with anti-semitic
hatespeech.)

# 17:52, 30 Dec 2001 Talk:Jews in the New Testament (SJK's anti-Semitic lies
and historical revisionism have no place in this project. )
How many people on wikipedia does RK have to libel before something is done
about him.

RK's lies about me and gross libelous distortions are nothing new. Tomorrow,
next week and next month he will be accusing someone else of jew-bashing and
anti-semitism, which in reality means anything who expresses an opinion
different to him. As I have said I am thoroughly fed up of having to deal
with this obnoxious arrogant person and his wild accusations against
everyone, I have merely tried to apply academic standards of NPOV and work
with people. I am thoroughly fed up having to put up with vicious bile and
blatent lies from RK in the process.

JT

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Watchlist

body:
tarquin wrote:

> I might be stating the obvious here...
>
> but each time I look at my watchlist, only a dozen or so pages have
> moved to the top.
> So you could discard everything that is older than the last view, or
> maybe the last day / week (user option?)

To do that with the current table structure you have to either:
a) check every single watched page to see if it's recent enough to look
at (this is exactly the previous behavior!),
or
b) start from the most recently edited page and move down through every
page checking for watched pages until we've met our display quota or
reached the cutoff time.

a) is cheap with small watchlists, but very expensive with some power
users where we may be checking a couple thousand pages.

b) is cheap if the number of edits since the cutoff time is small, but
very expensive if any real length of time is to be checked... 2796 pages
were edited in the last 24 hours, all of which would have to be checked
if we want to check for the last day's updates to our watchlist in this
way -- even if the watchlist only has ten items!

I've patched it up for now so that it checks how many pages are in your
watchlist, and how many pages total have been edited since the cutoff
time, and tries to pick the more efficient method.

I've set the default cutoff to one hour; this will generally cover
between 100 and 300 edits, which is a lot faster than, say, all 1452
entries in my watchlist. :) If you pick a cutoff that covers more edits
than are in your watchlist (plus or minus some fudge factors), it'll
switch back to the traditional method and just look through your list.
Searching 1452 entries may suck, but that's better than trawling all
16000 or so you'll find edited in a whole week. ;)

> Or would this method be better:
>
> 1. grab stored version watchlist (already ordered)
> 2. get date of last view of watchlist
> 3. examine the RC list from that date on
> 4. pick out items from that list that exist on the watchlist

I'm not sure how cleanly that could be done, hmm...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)