subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
If you're objecting to articles, yes. What you do is replace the
copyrighted text with a copyvio notice.

The problem here, as I hope you've figured out, is that you weren't
accusing specific articles of being copyvio. You were accusing a whole
project of being a copyvio. Thus the specific article replacement
served only to make a mess that was hard to clean up. Pretty much this
falls under "don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point." You picked a
disruptive and difficult to deal with way of expressing your concern of
copyvio that made a lot of work for people, was rude to people, and was
rightly read by people as a slap in the face to an entire Wikipedia.
You could have posted to the mailing list, to Meta, asked in IRC, or
even, since I know you've had a conversation with Sonja on IRC, asked
her specifically, since you knew she was involved in the project. You
did none of these things. Instead, you caused trouble.

As I said, I hope you understand this point. Because, quite honestly,
if you don't, that's even more troubling than your removal of a whole
Wikipedia.

-Snowspinner

On Sep 22, 2004, at 10:21 AM, Mark Williamson wrote:

> What? Who says I blanked any articles?
>
> Replaced the full text of articles with copyvio notices, yes, but
> that's what you're supposed to do for such notices, no?
>
> --node
>
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 05:08:51 -0700, Ray Saintonge
> <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>> Mark Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> As I said before, I was not aware of this.
>>>
>>> My statement that I did what I did in good faith still stands (though
>>> obviously I will not do it ever again, in fact chances are I'll never
>>> post a copyvio notice anywhere again).
>>>
>>>
>> There's a difference between blanking an article, and merely putting a
>> notice.
>>
>> Ec
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject:
[WikiEN-l] pirate radio station as source (was: Zero0000 has
	blocked Lance6Wins)

body:
True, but that's a different argument than the pirate radio station. I
mean, the warrant for inclusion, in that case, is not that it is said
by a pirate radio station, but that it is a belief of right-wing
Israeli settlers. And thus the information should be introduced in
those terms, instead of in terms of a pirate radio station.

-Snowspinner

On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:49 PM, Delirium wrote:

> Phil Sandifer wrote:
>
>> I don't think the small but hardcore following necessarily makes
>> their views encyclopedic - consider the case of Lyndon LaRouche,
>> which the arbcom has ruled ought not be mentioned in articles that do
>> not directly pertain to LaRouche. So I would still lean towards this
>> not being encyclopedic.
>
> In this case, I don't think it's directly analogous.  The views of the
> right-wing Israeli settlers are pretty relevant to the issue of
> Israeli-Palestinian relations...
>
> -Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Craig Franklin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
Scr?obh Mark Williamson:

> Well, I for one felt it was nessecary to replace all content with
> copyvio notices

Wow, slam-dunk for overstepping the mark there.  Since the whole "One
Chinese Wikipedia" thing, you've done nothing except stir the pot and try to
cause trouble.  How old are you Mark, twelve?  I realise this is not the
place for a flamefest, but I think that describing you as a "decent editor"
is being pretty generous.  All you've contributed to this list is a bunch of
half-researched junk about Sicilian and Gothic, which is either flat wrong
or which no supporting material can be found for, and you've done it all
with a very hostile attitude to a lot of people who have been very patient
with you.

I'm willing to accept that it's the impetuousness of youth causing this
trouble, but attempting to wipe out a whole Wikipedia without consulting
anyone first was really just going a bit too far.  I suggest you think
carefully in the future about what you say, what you do, and how it will be
perceived, and in the meantime, that you lay very, very, very low.

Regards,
- Craig Franklin

-------------------
Craig Franklin
PO Box 764
Ashgrove, Q, 4060
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
and Culture.

----- Original Message -----
From: <wikipedia-l-request at Wikimedia.org>
To: <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 1:38 PM
Subject: [personal] Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 47

> Send Wikipedia-l mailing list submissions to
> wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> wikipedia-l-request at Wikimedia.org
>
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> wikipedia-l-owner at Wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikipedia-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. RE: Request for a new Wikipedia (James R. Johnson)
>    2. Re: Request for a new Wikipedia (Mark Williamson)
>    3. Re: Starting a new wiki (Ray Saintonge)
>    4. RE: Request for a new Wikipedia (Alfio Puglisi)
>    5. Re: Request for a new Wikipedia (Mark Williamson)
>    6. Re: Request for a new Wikipedia (Anthere)
>    7. Re: Re: Request for a new Wikipedia (Mark Williamson)
>    8. RE: Re: Request for a new Wikipedia (James R. Johnson)
>    9. toki pona (Angela_)
>   10. Re: toki pona (Tim Starling)
>   11. Re: toki pona (Mark Williamson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:58:04 -0400
> From: "James R. Johnson" <modean52 at comcast.net>
> Subject: RE: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
> To: <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <20040921195810.3543C1AC0252 at mail.wikimedia.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I tried Chinese, but didn't get too far.  I stuck with Anglo-Saxon,
German,
> French, Latin, and English.  I'm best in German and Anglo-Saxon (speaking,
> writing), then French, then Latin.  English is my first language.  How
'bout
> you, node?
>
> James
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ray Saintonge
> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 3:22 PM
> To: Mark Williamson; wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> >Sicilian language.
> >
> >Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
> connectivity.
> >
> >I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> >
> Your fluency in traditional Chinese, Gothic, and now Sicilian is a
> remarkable feat that few of us can duplicate.  In the absence of such
> abilities I would tend to suggest that we wait for a request to be made
> by those who would like to work in Sicilian.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:19:25 -0700
> From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <849f98ed04092113194d086ac at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Question, when did I claim fluency in Gothic?
>
> --node
>
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:21:30 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mark Williamson wrote:
> >
> > >Hi all,
> > >
> > >The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> > >Sicilian language.
> > >
> > >Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
connectivity.
> > >
> > >I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> > >
> > Your fluency in traditional Chinese, Gothic, and now Sicilian is a
> > remarkable feat that few of us can duplicate.  In the absence of such
> > abilities I would tend to suggest that we wait for a request to be made
> > by those who would like to work in Sicilian.
> >
> > Ec
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:25:14 -0700
> From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Starting a new wiki
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <41508E2A.1090604 at telus.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
>
> Yann Forget wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >Le Tuesday 21 September 2004 19:08, Ray Saintonge a ?crit :
> >
> >
> >>translated.  Tagore died in 1941, so his works are essentially all in
> >>the public domain based on the life plus 60 law that prevails for India.
> >>
> >>
> >I am not sure. Does this apply worldwide?
> >If yes, I have some texts available for Wikisource.
> >
> >
> For the relevant Indian law see
> http://www.naukri.com/lls/copyright/section5.htm#22
>
> For the relationship to US law see [[Itar-Tass Russian News Agency v.
> Russian Kurier, Inc.]] in Wikipedia.
>
> Ec
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:44:07 +0200 (MEST)
> From: Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it>
> Subject: RE: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409212340240.24544 at zeus>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
> AFAIK, sicilian today has been blended a lot with Italian. The average
> sicilian hears Italian on television and writes in italian, not sicilian.
> I'm sure most of them have no idea of how Sicilian is written (I have no
> idea myself, but that doesn't count). It's not taught in schools, it's
> mostly oral tradition.
>
> Alfio
>
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, James R. Johnson wrote:
>
> >Cool.  How is Sicilian related to Italian and French?
> >
> >James
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> >[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:21 PM
> >To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> >Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> >Sicilian language.
> >
> >Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
> >connectivity.
> >
> >I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> >
> >best,
> >node
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:14:07 -0700
> From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <849f98ed040921151470b01c3c at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> There are plenty of Sicilian-language websites online, in fact there
> are more than there are for Sardinian which is much much much more
> different from standard Italian.
>
> As far as how its written, see http://www.linguasiciliana.org/lsu.htm
> (lingua siciliana unificata).
>
> There are more books available in Sicilian than there are in Sardinian
> as well, including a few translations of popular literature. Also,
> Sicilian is, along with Italian, a co-official language of the
> Sicilian autonomous region of Italy.
>
> --node
>
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:44:07 +0200 (MEST), Alfio Puglisi
> <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
> >
> > AFAIK, sicilian today has been blended a lot with Italian. The average
> > sicilian hears Italian on television and writes in italian, not
sicilian.
> > I'm sure most of them have no idea of how Sicilian is written (I have no
> > idea myself, but that doesn't count). It's not taught in schools, it's
> > mostly oral tradition.
> >
> > Alfio
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, James R. Johnson wrote:
> >
> > >Cool.  How is Sicilian related to Italian and French?
> > >
> > >James
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> > >[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson
> > >Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:21 PM
> > >To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> > >Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia
> > >
> > >Hi all,
> > >
> > >The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> > >Sicilian language.
> > >
> > >Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
> > >connectivity.
> > >
> > >I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> > >
> > >best,
> > >node
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:30:16 +0200
> From: Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Request for a new Wikipedia
> To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> Message-ID: <4150AB78.5060303 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Do you have perhaps 5 editors able to write and read sicilian AND
> interested in starting that wikipedia ?
>
> ant
>
>
> Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> > Sicilian language.
> >
> > Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
connectivity.
> >
> > I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> >
> > best,
> > node
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:22:31 -0700
> From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Request for a new Wikipedia
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <849f98ed0409211622527475a8 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I could probably get some together, but why is that nessecary? Most of
> the Wikipedias we have started with one or two users. The Cornish Wiki
> is growing at a very surprising pace, and it only has two editors.
>
> --node
>
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:30:16 +0200, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Do you have perhaps 5 editors able to write and read sicilian AND
> > interested in starting that wikipedia ?
> >
> > ant
> >
> > Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> > > Sicilian language.
> > >
> > > Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
connectivity.
> > >
> > > I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> > >
> > > best,
> > > node
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:09:54 -0400
> From: "James R. Johnson" <modean52 at comcast.net>
> Subject: RE: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Request for a new Wikipedia
> To: "'Mark Williamson'" <node.ue at gmail.com>,
> <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <20040922021039.247641AC028C at mail.wikimedia.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Ditto Anglo-Saxon.  There are at least 5-10 core people I can get to write
> articles, with perhaps 50 or so others for minor contributions, not
counting
> traffic to the various OE websites that could be redirected to the
> Anglo-Saxon wiki, plus the people who e-mail me personally asking about
OE.
> Est-ce que vous parlez en Francais, Mark?  Je vais aller ? France ce mars.
>
> James
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson
> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 7:23 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Request for a new Wikipedia
>
> I could probably get some together, but why is that nessecary? Most of
> the Wikipedias we have started with one or two users. The Cornish Wiki
> is growing at a very surprising pace, and it only has two editors.
>
> --node
>
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:30:16 +0200, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Do you have perhaps 5 editors able to write and read sicilian AND
> > interested in starting that wikipedia ?
> >
> > ant
> >
> > Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > The ISO 639 committee has *just* (literally) approved a code for the
> > > Sicilian language.
> > >
> > > Sicilian has over 6 million speakers, and there is good internet
> connectivity.
> > >
> > > I would like to request that scn: be created for Sicilian.
> > >
> > > best,
> > > node
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:45:36 +0100
> From: Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona
> To: Wikipedia Mailing List <wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org>, sonja at kisa.ca
> Message-ID: <8b722b8004092119452220127f at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> I've just reverted over 200 edits on the toki pona Wikipedia. Someone
> apparently feels the language is copyrighted so decided to replace
> every page, including user pages and the main page, with a copyright
> violation notice, presumably with the use of a bot. I've reverted
> these, although unfortunately the "bot rollback" failed on later pages
> so recent changes is a mess. I haven't deleted anything, so if people
> want to see the pages, such as "copyviopedia" this person created they
> can still do so.
>
> As far as I am aware Sonja Kisa, the creator of the language, has
> released it under the GFDL, but I can't find any mailing list evidence
> to back this up.
>
> If this is not the case, the wiki should obviously be removed but
> vandalizing hundreds of pages is not the way to go about this. I
> suggest we wait to hear from Sonja on the status of the copyright and
> remove it she can not confirm it is GFDL.
>
> Angela.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:05:18 +1000
> From: Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona
> To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> Message-ID: <ciqq5g$gca$1 at sea.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Angela_ wrote:
> > I've just reverted over 200 edits on the toki pona Wikipedia. Someone
> > apparently feels the language is copyrighted so decided to replace
> > every page, including user pages and the main page, with a copyright
> > violation notice, presumably with the use of a bot. I've reverted
> > these, although unfortunately the "bot rollback" failed on later pages
> > so recent changes is a mess. I haven't deleted anything, so if people
> > want to see the pages, such as "copyviopedia" this person created they
> > can still do so.
>
> Edits were performed anonymously with the IP address 24.251.242.236 .
> The corresponding hostname is ip24-251-242-236.ph.ph.cox.net.
>
> On the English Wikipedia:
>
> mysql> select distinct rc_user_text from recentchanges where
> rc_ip='24.251.242.236';
> +--------------+
> | rc_user_text |
> +--------------+
> | Node ue      |
> +--------------+
>
> I suggest a temporary ban from all projects effective immediately.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:38:29 -0700
> From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona
> To: Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <849f98ed040921203830a61096 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Well, I for one felt it was nessecary to replace all content with
> copyvio notices because it states explicitly on the Toki Pona homepage
> that Toki Pona is copyrighted. In a cursory Google search, just to
> make sure I wasn't missing some sort of release by Sonja of the
> information into the public domain or under some sort of terms, I
> found no page under which Sonja released the language in any sort of
> way.
>
> While it is debatable whether or not a language is copyrightable (see
> Lojban), I feared for Wikipedias interests and so took down those
> pages immediately pending further investigation.
>
> Some have raised the point that a significant number of the pages were
> written by Sonja herself, and thus were explicitly released under the
> terms of the gfdl when she clicked "submit".
>
> I have two things to say to that:
>
> 1. At the time I did not realise this.
>
> 2. Since I suspected that they were copyvios, rather than checking the
> history of each of 200-odd pages I simply replaced them all.
>
> Since it appears they were indeed *not* copyvio, the appropriate
> course of action is simply to revert them to their previous versions
> after it has been shown that they aren't copyvio, and then keep going
> from where you were.
>
> Whether or not I am blocked from all projects is obviously not my
> choice, but I will submit that I have contributed much to the
> community. For example, just in the past couple of days I have made
> logos for over a dozen Wikipedias, and posted them on Meta. I am also
> (at least I think) partially responsible for the founding of fo: and
> lb: (I informed people of the possibility of creating them).
>
> Anyhow the decision doesn't rest in my hands. I will not object if it
> is decided that I should be blocked or banned or whatever, I will only
> defend myself against specific arguments.
>
> --node
>
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:45:36 +0100, Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've just reverted over 200 edits on the toki pona Wikipedia. Someone
> > apparently feels the language is copyrighted so decided to replace
> > every page, including user pages and the main page, with a copyright
> > violation notice, presumably with the use of a bot. I've reverted
> > these, although unfortunately the "bot rollback" failed on later pages
> > so recent changes is a mess. I haven't deleted anything, so if people
> > want to see the pages, such as "copyviopedia" this person created they
> > can still do so.
> >
> > As far as I am aware Sonja Kisa, the creator of the language, has
> > released it under the GFDL, but I can't find any mailing list evidence
> > to back this up.
> >
> > If this is not the case, the wiki should obviously be removed but
> > vandalizing hundreds of pages is not the way to go about this. I
> > suggest we wait to hear from Sonja on the status of the copyright and
> > remove it she can not confirm it is GFDL.
> >
> > Angela.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
> End of Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 47
> *******************************************
>
>


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Capitalisation on the French Wiktionary

body:
Hi,

Le Wednesday 22 September 2004 19:52, Peter Gervai a ?crit :
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 06:49:36PM +0200, Yann Forget wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Capitalisation is now only an option in the French Wiktionary.
> >
> > So, f.e., now [[allemand]] and [[Allemand]] are two different articles.
> >
> > All language names are lower cases in French.
>
> Please enlighten me.
>
> I see why it is good to be able to call an article [[pH]], so that's okay.
>
> However, I fail to see the point why [[ph]] [[pH]] and [[Ph]] have to be
> different articles. Can someone show an example where different
> capitalisation result different words which require separate articles?

Because they are different words?
In any French paper dictionary, [[pH]] and [[Ph]] will have *two* entries, not
one. So why not in Wiktionary?
This rule has to be decided for each language.

In French, these words are even often separated in two books.
One for lower case words (noms communs) and one for upper case words (noms
propres, i.e. people, places, etc.).

> I'd say if someone links to [[ph]] it should find [[pH]], and editing
> [[ph]] would open [[pH]] for edit.

No, for me [[Ph]], [[pH]] and [[ph]] are three different words.
If I edit [[pH]], I don't expect to find [[Ph]].

But maybe a link in == See also == might help.

> thanks
> peter

Best regards,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: What is going on ?? The nl:wiktionary is currently
	a mess.

body:
Camille Constans wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:49:11 +0200
> Gerard Meijssen <gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>
>>After the changes in the capitalisation, I have made MAJOR changes
>>already with regard changing to underscore templates.
>>
>>I do not know who decided to roll back the capitalisation, but the
>>result is that the nl:wiktionary is broken.
>>
>>Please let us have the capitalisation turned off because now we are
>>truly f***ed.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>    GerardM
>
>
> Corrected (shaihulud look to Hashar:o) )
>
> Shaihulud

Yup we had some edit conflicts other the global configuration file :o)
Shai was doing things about nl:wiktionary and I was updating logos at
the sametime :o)

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>
	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>> Speaking of which, there is a list of logos that need to be updated
>> here: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-development_tasks_for_developers
>>
>> --node
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:19:53 +0200, Petr Kadlec
>> <petr.kadlec at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> On the czech (cs:) Wikipedia, we still have the original english logo.
>>> On meta:Requests for logos, I have added the request that we are ready
>>> to switch the logo, but there is still no reply (after a month). So I
>>> am trying to catch someone's attention here -- could you help to
>>> change the logo?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Mormegil
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I am going to update them all.
>

Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:, el:,
jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .

The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .

Please protect them !

--
Ashar Voultoiz


list: textbook-l

from_name: John Dehlin

subject: [Textbook-l] Re: Utah OpenTexbooks Project (Project Dyson)

body:
A few of you have said that you were unable to download/read the attachment,
so I am including the ?Vision Document? below:

-------------------------

Utah OpenTextbooks Project

Overview:  The Utah OpenTextbooks Project will cultivate a grassroots
community of K-12 teachers, students, university professors, educational
administrators, and concerned citizens within the state of Utah, with the
intent of creating open, free textbooks, along with supplemental digital
learning materials, for educational use.

The Vision: Within 5-10 years (2010-2015), we see the following as within
reach:
* Utah Saving Millions of $$$ in Textbook Costs: The state of Utah could
save literally millions of dollars a year in textbook costs by replacing
expensive textbooks with free, open textbooks (currently the annual K-12
budget for textbooks in Utah alone is $20M)
* UTAH State Standards: Utah OpenTextbooks will be directly \aligned with
both Utah state curriculum and local priorities/preferences?and will not be
oriented towards the curriculum, preferences, or social norms of other
states (e.g. New York, California, Florida, and Texas).
* Helping Teachers Teach Better, with Less Time Commitment: A major goal of
ours is to SIMPLIFY teacher?s lives, by providing them with time-saving
course materials, while still helping them improve their overall
instruction.  A few ideas include:
> * Teacher subject matter knowledge and passion will increase through
> participation in the ?online teacher communities?, as well as through
> increased direct involvement in both content development and selection.
> * By allowing teachers to share with each other quality digital supplemental
> course material designed around a specific textbook (multimedia clips for
> lectures, digital self-paced learning objects for student homework, test
> banks, classroom exercises, etc), we hope to dramatically simplify teacher?s
> overall jobs, while still helping them improve their level of instruction
* Helping Students Learn More via Social Networks and Digital Content?Today,
our competition for student time includes alternatives like Xbox, MTV,
Internet Forums, etc. By intermingling student learning with social groups
via a digital medium, we hope to create a ?special sauce? that will lead to
increased student interest, involvement and enjoyment in learning like never
before (making it ?cool? to learn, from a social perspective, and allowing
students to develop/foster social relationships within a learning context).
> * Subject-specific online learning communities for students will be
> cultivated, such that students can ?socialize? with other students from around
> the state in a learning environment (killing 3 birds with one stone by
> facilitating learning, socialization, and fun simultaneously).
> * Classroom lectures/activities become better for students, by providing
> professors with better materials for lectures and activities (see above)
> * By providing students with well-designed digital learning objects (digital
> text, self-paced learning modules, multimedia clips, etc), students can learn
> at their own pace, in a digital environment that is more familiar, and
> potentially more compelling.
> * As the communities begin to mature, city-wide and even state-wide
> competitions could be held (think of online or state-wide history or math
> tournaments), where students gain notoriety/respect/success (ratings?
> Rankings?) for excelling within specific subject areas.

How We Will Do This:
1. Online Community: For starters, we will create an online community of
educators, and actively recruit participants.  Currently, this forum is
located at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/utahopentextbooks. We will seek to
recruit members from: a) contacts in Logan/Cache Valley and at Utah State
University, b) the Utah Educators Association, c) the Utah Educators
Network, and d) any other area/forum where Utah educators congregate.
2. The ?Kernel? (our 1st Textbook)?To borrow on a software-related metaphor,
the ?kernel? of our efforts will be the creation of a single community and
textbook (we are thinking U.S. History to start with).   We will try to find
an author of an existing text (or other opentextbook initiative) who is
willing to ?donate? their textbook to our cause as a foundation.  If we
can?t find this, we will seek grant money to pay 4 or 5 university
professors and/or teachers $20K each ($100K total) to help design the 1st
textbook over a year?s time.  This book will be developed:
> 1. DIRECTLY based on Utah State curriculum requirements
> 2. With EXTENSIVE input from real, live, active teachers in the given field
> 3. With a ?Wiki? approach (see www.wikipedia.org <http://www.wikipedia.org> ).
> While we are intent on approaching the design of this text w/ a spirit of
> openness and community, we will optimize around creating a quality text in a
> reasonable amount of time (1 year?)?and will sacrifice openness (in terms of
> authoring, not input) to ensure a quality/timely release.  2 potential models
> for development include:
>> 1. 5 paid authors?thousands of volunteer reviewers
>> 2. Thousands of volunteer authors?5 paid editors/reviewers (gate-keepers)
> 4. Digital Content: We will seek to obtain digital content for the textbook
> from any/all available sources, including the Library of  Congress, National
> Archives, National Science Foundation, other learning object repositories,
> etc.
3. Printing and Evangelizing the Textbook: While this textbook will be fully
digital/online, it will also be available via print.  We will locate a
printer who is able to print a quality version of this text (hard copy?) for
under $5/copy.  Once the 1st textbook is completed, it will be evangelized
to charter schools, school districts, and even the state of Utah for pilot
usage.
4. Supplemental Digital Content Libraries: Once the text is completed (or
perhaps in parallel), the community will be invited to submit digital
?learning objects? to supplement the text.  Possible items for submission
will include:
> 1. Lesson plans, including supplemental digital multimedia
> 2. Group exercises
> 3. Student homework /assignments
> 4. Test questions
> 5. Other supplemental instruction or learning materials

What will differentiate our content repository from the plethora of other
?failed? content repositories is:
1. It will be directly associated with a specific course/textbook, instead
of generic subjects?thus teachers will have much more of a direct interest
in participating.
2. By fostering usage within a unified state/system?we will be able to
create a critical mass of community members, with enough in common, and with
enough mutual familiarity, to add real value to the individual members.  The
content will be created and evangelized via a local community of teachers
(?viral marketing?)
3. The content (text and digital learning objects) will be rated by teachers
AND learners, such that a ?virtual feedback loop? will be digitally enabled
(leading to dramatic content improvement).  As far as learning objects go,
only a few of the VERY BEST content objects will be recommended for each
section of instruction.  In other words?SIMPLIFIED CHOICES, SUPER HIGH
QUALITY.

And of course, this initiative will likely solve world peace, world hunger,
and general moral decay?but I wanted to keep predictions relatively
conservative at this point. J


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: What is going on ?? The nl:wiktionary is
	currently a mess.

references:
<4151C927.6010405@myrealbox.com>	<20040922210706.7d7e528a.wikipedia@shaihome.net>
	<cisjsb$ga3$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

> Camille Constans wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:49:11 +0200
>> Gerard Meijssen <gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> After the changes in the capitalisation, I have made MAJOR changes
>>> already with regard changing to underscore templates.
>>>
>>> I do not know who decided to roll back the capitalisation, but the
>>> result is that the nl:wiktionary is broken.
>>>
>>> Please let us have the capitalisation turned off because now we are
>>> truly f***ed.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>    GerardM
>>
>>
>>
>> Corrected (shaihulud look to Hashar:o) )
>>
>> Shaihulud
>
>
> Yup we had some edit conflicts other the global configuration file :o)
> Shai was doing things about nl:wiktionary and I was updating logos at
> the sametime :o)
>
Thanks for letting us know what was happening :)
GerardM


from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>
	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org> <ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On 22 Sep 2004, at 21:40, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

> Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:,
> el:, jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
>
> The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .
>
> Please protect them !
>
> --
> Ashar Voultoiz

For some weird and wonderful reason most or all of these logos are
rendered "too high" in Safari (http://www.apple.com/safari), ie. the
top bit of the picture is cut off.
I don't have that problem with other WP logos such as en.
This suggests to me that you must have done something differently.

(I also don't have that problem on the below WPs when using MSIE:mac
(www.microsoft.com/mac/ie), but my assumption about you probably having
done something differently from other WPs still stands.)

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: Delirium

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with
	Mandrakesoft

body:
Bryan Derksen wrote:

> I bet a nice market could be school libraries in not-so-well-off
> neighborhoods. They could buy a cheap second-hand computer, stick a
> Mandrake Wikipedia on it, and presto - a top-of-the-line (by some
> standards :) encyclopedia that the kids could even make copies of and
> take home if they wanted. I recall someone was asking about this very
> possibility a month or so back, he wanted to install Wikipedia in some
> local schools and was looking for a way to download the image database
> to go with the text.

I'm not sure if this is unform across the US, but in places I've lived,
school libraries (and public libraries) in not-so-well-off neighborhoods
have been exceedingly well-connected, due to specific funding set aside
to bring computer equipment and internet access to poor areas.  It is
true that home internet connectivity strongly correlates with income
though (although there's no real reason why it should, as cancelling
your cable service---which a huge percentage of Americans, including
poor Americans, pay for---and buying internet access instead will
generally result in a net savings).

-Mark


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>
	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org> <ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<4A99FA0C-0CD2-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com>

body:
I have the same rendering problem on Firefox PR1.0 under Windows (checked
ast: and bs:)

Alfio

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jens Ropers wrote:

>On 22 Sep 2004, at 21:40, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
>> Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:,
>> el:, jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
>>
>> The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .
>>
>> Please protect them !
>>
>> --
>> Ashar Voultoiz
>
>For some weird and wonderful reason most or all of these logos are
>rendered "too high" in Safari (http://www.apple.com/safari), ie. the
>top bit of the picture is cut off.
>I don't have that problem with other WP logos such as en.
>This suggests to me that you must have done something differently.
>
>(I also don't have that problem on the below WPs when using MSIE:mac
>(www.microsoft.com/mac/ie), but my assumption about you probably having
>done something differently from other WPs still stands.)
>
>-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>
	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org> <ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<4A99FA0C-0CD2-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com>

body:
On 22 Sep 2004, at 22:02, Jens Ropers wrote:

> On 22 Sep 2004, at 21:40, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
>> Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:,
>> el:, jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
>>
>> The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .
>>
>> Please protect them !
>>
>> --
>> Ashar Voultoiz
>
> For some weird and wonderful reason most or all of these logos are
> rendered "too high" in Safari (http://www.apple.com/safari), ie. the
> top bit of the picture is cut off.
> I don't have that problem with other WP logos such as en.
> This suggests to me that you must have done something differently.
>
> (I also don't have that problem on the below WPs when using MSIE:mac
> (www.microsoft.com/mac/ie), but my assumption about you probably
> having done something differently from other WPs still stands.)

s/the below WPs/the above Wikipedias/


subject: [Wikitech-l] database errors

body:
I get three times a database error when I try to delete Sjabloon:De
Sjabloon:En and Sjabloon:Fr

The error text:

    INSERT INTO brokenlinks (bl_from,bl_to) VALUES
    (788,'Sjabloon:De'),(790,'Sjabloon:De'),(818,'Sjabloon:De'),(833,'Sjabloon:De'),(846,'Sjabloon:De'),(850,'Sjabloon:De'),(1728,'Sjabloon:De'),(875,'Sjabloon:De'),(879,'Sjabloon:De'),(912,'Sjabloon:De'),(913,'Sjabloon:De'),(914,'Sjabloon:De'),(919,'Sjabloon:De'),(922,'Sjabloon:De'),(935,'Sjabloon:De'),(947,'Sjabloon:De'),(948,'Sjabloon:De'),(969,'Sjabloon:De'),(970,'Sjabloon:De'),(974,'Sjabloon:De'),(1015,'Sjabloon:De'),(1023,'Sjabloon:De'),(1080,'Sjabloon:De'),(1138,'Sjabloon:De'),(1164,'Sjabloon:De'),(1167,'Sjabloon:De'),(1169,'Sjabloon:De'),(1173,'Sjabloon:De'),(1178,'Sjabloon:De'),(1186,'Sjabloon:De'),(1189,'Sjabloon:De'),(1207,'Sjabloon:De'),(1209,'Sjabloon:De'),(1218,'Sjabloon:De'),(1221,'Sjabloon:De'),(1229,'Sjabloon:De'),(1249,'Sjabloon:De'),(1251,'Sjabloon:De'),(1255,'Sjabloon:De'),(1256,'Sjabloon:De'),(1258,'Sjabloon:De'),(1272,'Sjabloon:De'),(1298,'Sjabloon:De'),(1382,'Sjabloon:De'),(1405,'Sjabloon:De'),(1412,'Sjabloon:De'),(1436,'Sjabloon:De'),(1451,'Sjabloon:De'),(1463,'Sjabloon:De'),(1492,'Sjabloon:De'),(1606,'Sjabloon:De'),(1693,'Sjabloon:De'),(1722,'Sjabloon:De'),(1728,'Sjabloon:De'),(1729,'Sjabloon:De'),(1751,'Sjabloon:De'),(1752,'Sjabloon:De'),(1772,'Sjabloon:De'),(1787,'Sjabloon:De'),(1790,'Sjabloon:De'),(1833,'Sjabloon:De'),(1849,'Sjabloon:De'),(1850,'Sjabloon:De'),(1871,'Sjabloon:De'),(1876,'Sjabloon:De'),(2339,'Sjabloon:De'),(2573,'Sjabloon:De'),(2692,'Sjabloon:De'),(2701,'Sjabloon:De'),(2705,'Sjabloon:De'),(2707,'Sjabloon:De'),(2711,'Sjabloon:De'),(2726,'Sjabloon:De'),(2728,'Sjabloon:De'),(2729,'Sjabloon:De'),(2737,'Sjabloon:De'),(2748,'Sjabloon:De'),(2752,'Sjabloon:De'),(2756,'Sjabloon:De'),(2763,'Sjabloon:De'),(2775,'Sjabloon:De'),(2776,'Sjabloon:De'),(2783,'Sjabloon:De'),(2784,'Sjabloon:De'),(2807,'Sjabloon:De'),(3006,'Sjabloon:De'),(3057,'Sjabloon:De'),(3068,'Sjabloon:De'),(3069,'Sjabloon:De'),(3168,'Sjabloon:De'),(3169,'Sjabloon:De'),(3171,'Sjabloon:De'),(3184,'Sjabloon:De'),(3193,'Sjabloon:De'),(3237,'Sjabloon:De'),(3260,'Sjabloon:De'),(3354,'Sjabloon:De'),(3355,'Sjabloon:De'),(3388,'Sjabloon:De'),(3473,'Sjabloon:De'),(3476,'Sjabloon:De'),(3478,'Sjabloon:De'),(3494,'Sjabloon:De'),(3537,'Sjabloon:De'),(3604,'Sjabloon:De'),(3605,'Sjabloon:De'),(3650,'Sjabloon:De'),(3651,'Sjabloon:De'),(3691,'Sjabloon:De'),(3696,'Sjabloon:De'),(3711,'Sjabloon:De'),(3927,'Sjabloon:De'),(3930,'Sjabloon:De'),(3931,'Sjabloon:De'),(4460,'Sjabloon:De'),(4592,'Sjabloon:De'),(4670,'Sjabloon:De'),(4673,'Sjabloon:De'),(4876,'Sjabloon:De'),(4985,'Sjabloon:De'),(5137,'Sjabloon:De'),(5141,'Sjabloon:De'),(5147,'Sjabloon:De'),(5380,'Sjabloon:De'),(5544,'Sjabloon:De'),(5577,'Sjabloon:De'),(5628,'Sjabloon:De'),(5641,'Sjabloon:De'),(5642,'Sjabloon:De'),(5803,'Sjabloon:De'),(5804,'Sjabloon:De'),(5869,'Sjabloon:De'),(5873,'Sjabloon:De'),(5898,'Sjabloon:De'),(5948,'Sjabloon:De'),(5949,'Sjabloon:De'),(5952,'Sjabloon:De'),(5954,'Sjabloon:De'),(5973,'Sjabloon:De'),(5992,'Sjabloon:De'),(6029,'Sjabloon:De'),(6038,'Sjabloon:De'),(6141,'Sjabloon:De'),(6215,'Sjabloon:De'),(6216,'Sjabloon:De'),(6217,'Sjabloon:De'),(6218,'Sjabloon:De'),(6219,'Sjabloon:De'),(6222,'Sjabloon:De'),(6226,'Sjabloon:De'),(6376,'Sjabloon:De'),(6377,'Sjabloon:De'),(6380,'Sjabloon:De'),(6382,'Sjabloon:De'),(6385,'Sjabloon:De'),(6390,'Sjabloon:De'),(6395,'Sjabloon:De'),(6398,'Sjabloon:De'),(6575,'Sjabloon:De'),(6599,'Sjabloon:De'),(6600,'Sjabloon:De'),(6695,'Sjabloon:De'),(6701,'Sjabloon:De'),(6702,'Sjabloon:De'),(6707,'Sjabloon:De'),(6708,'Sjabloon:De'),(6709,'Sjabloon:De'),(6712,'Sjabloon:De'),(6878,'Sjabloon:De'),(6880,'Sjabloon:De'),(6881,'Sjabloon:De'),(6908,'Sjabloon:De'),(6949,'Sjabloon:De'),(6959,'Sjabloon:De'),(6961,'Sjabloon:De'),(6962,'Sjabloon:De'),(7034,'Sjabloon:De'),(7046,'Sjabloon:De'),(7047,'Sjabloon:De'),(7050,'Sjabloon:De'),(7063,'Sjabloon:De'),(7066,'Sjabloon:De'),(7067,'Sjabloon:De'),(7068,'Sjabloon:De'),(7147,'Sjabloon:De'),(7150,'Sjabloon:De'),(7214,'Sjabloon:De'),(7259,'Sjabloon:De'),(7281,'Sjabloon:De'),(7296,'Sjabloon:De'),(7362,'Sjabloon:De'),(7367,'Sjabloon:De'),(7369,'Sjabloon:De'),(7370,'Sjabloon:De'),(7371,'Sjabloon:De'),(7372,'Sjabloon:De'),(7374,'Sjabloon:De'),(7376,'Sjabloon:De'),(7379,'Sjabloon:De'),(7380,'Sjabloon:De'),(7384,'Sjabloon:De'),(7385,'Sjabloon:De')

vanuit de functie "Article::doDeleteArticle". MySQL gaf the foutmelding
"1062: Duplicate entry '1728-Sjabloon:De' for key 1".

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject: [Wikitech-l] keeping configuration file history

body:
Hello !

I am wondering if we can start using RCS for every changes we make to
configuration files ? That will allow us to know what has been changed
and who made it.

The drawback is that we will have to stop "vi something.conf" or the
configuration change will be lost when someone check out the RCS
repository file (that's what happened 3 hours ago with shai and me).

We can use a little "editconf" script that should be used instead of our
editor that will automaticly:

_ create the repository if it doesnt exit (mkdir RCS)
_ checkout last version
_ edit file
_ ask for a log change
_ commit the change

Such a script is on the dev wiki [[RCS#Scripts]] .

If nobody care, I will stop using RCS and just do like everyone else :o)

--
Ashar Voultoiz


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
Hi,

Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux distribution, is
interested to distribute a DVD with an English and French version of
Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site and included with the next
distribution, due in next April.

Mandrakesoft will take legal responsibilities for this publication and is
ready to donate some money to the Wikimedia Foundation. The amount is still
to be decided.

Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would like to
complete this first edition for Christmas.

As you may have noticed, a mention about this was included in the press
release and the newsletter with the authorization of Mandrakesoft who will
also publish a press release about this project.

The summary below is also available on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft

== Points fixed so far ==

* It will first be sold on Mandrake web site, then included in the next
version of the distribution.

* It will include only the current version of the English and French
distribution. Mandrakesoft publishes a French version sold in French speaking
countries and an English (international) version sold elsewhere in the world.
The English Wikipedia will be sold with the international version of Mandrake
Linux.

* Mandrakesoft asks that the Wikimedia Foundation provide them with a master
DVD.

* Mandrakesoft will take the legal responsibility for this publication.

* Fair use images should be removed as the publication has to comply with
worldwide copyright standards, not US only. Also images without proper
licensing information have to be removed.

== Questions that need answering ==

* Do we include only complete articles or the whole of Wikipedia including
stubs?
* How do we package it? Several possibilities, see the page on meta.

== What you can do ==

So we need some help to complete this project.
* Work is needed to provide proper lisensing information on all images in the
English Wikipedia.
* Help packaging. Help with technical knowledge is needed here. Med and
Hashar, among others, are already working on this.

Thanks,

Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [WikiEN-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft


list: wikimedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft


subject: [Wikitech-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
> If you're objecting to articles, yes. What you do is replace the
> copyrighted text with a copyvio notice.

Yes. I suspected that the text of each and every single one of the
articles I replaced was copyvio (with the exception of a couple I did
by mistake which had no content at all).

> The problem here, as I hope you've figured out, is that you weren't
> accusing specific articles of being copyvio. You were accusing a whole
> project of being a copyvio.

No, I wasn't. I wasn't "accusing" anything of being anything.

Regardless of that, there were quite a few pages (mostly talk pages)
that I left up.

> Thus the specific article replacement
> served only to make a mess that was hard to clean up. Pretty much this
> falls under "don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point." You picked a
> disruptive and difficult to deal with way of expressing your concern of
> copyvio that made a lot of work for people, was rude to people, and was
> rightly read by people as a slap in the face to an entire Wikipedia.

...

I did it out of concern and with nothing but the best intentions. I
would hardly call it "disrupting wikipedia" as if you look at RC on
tokipona: there have been no revisions since Angela rv'd my edits and
an edit or two I made a few hours after that. Nobody even noticed what
I had done for nearly 24 hours after I stopped doing it, and over 24
hours after I started doing it; before I started there hadn't been any
new articles for quite some time anyways and most non-new-article
edits were very minor, and even they were few and far between (compare
this to other Wikipedias with similar or even smaller contributor
pools such as kw:, lb:, etc which have at times grown enourmously in
the course of a week or less; although to be fair there are wikipedias
with similar or [possibly?] larger contributor pools that grow at the
same [or lower?] speed as tokipona:)

Nobody came to me about the notices - had they discussed them with me
and I realised that was not the way to deal with the issue, I would've
taken them down myself.

The intention was not to be rude to people. If I wanted to be rude to
people, I would've done it on en:, and it would've probably been a lot
worse than a couple of hundred copyvio notices.

As to whether or not I support the existance of a Toki Pona wikipedia:

Independent of all other concerns, yes. It's a conlang - I still
support it. I also support Wikipedias in other conlangs; but given
recent decisions on policy regarding wikipedias in such languages it
seems very unfair. That doesn't mean I think Toki Pona should be
removed.

If you really care about whether or not I support conlang Wikipedias, get this:

After a long heated discussion on the length and purpose of en:'s
Template:Wikipedialang, Raul654 - the sysop who banned me for a short
period of time for ths very incident - was the one who removed
tokipona:, a Wikipedia with more than the required 100 articles, from
the template citing "no original research". In none of my edits did I
remove the link to the Toki Pona wikipedia, and any other links I
removed (such as tlh:, jbo:, etc) were only in the interest of a
peaceful resolution of the argument over the template (I was for
keeping it long, like it used to be). Of course one could argue that
by not adding it back, I was thus explicitly declaring my contempt for
tokipona:. But I have learned from the past that edit wars are
generally not nearly as important as they seem in the beginning and I
recognised that for the best solution to the problem both Raul and I
would have to make concessions, which is of course very true in real
life as well (If you think I need to learn life lessons, look at all
the heads of state in the world today who do not seem to recognise
that in a conflict major concessions are required from both sides,
regardless of who is "right").

That's nothing against Raul, many people clearly don't like tokipona:,
but I would generally not count myself among their ranks. FWIW, I
truly cannot consider myself entirely for conlang Wikipedias, because
I do think that perhaps the best solution for these Wikipedias today
is to search for a home more accepting of them, which would obviously
not be reached by abrupt content removal and such would not prove a
point in that direction either.

> You could have posted to the mailing list, to Meta, asked in IRC, or
> even, since I know you've had a conversation with Sonja on IRC, asked
> her specifically, since you knew she was involved in the project. You
> did none of these things. Instead, you caused trouble.

1. Sonja is not on IRC all the time. When she is, she's not always
active in #wikipedia. The same is true for all non-bots.
2. As I noted before, I was under the mistaken impression that as far
as copyvios go, policy said to act first and ask questions later to
protect the interests of Wikipedia (as I have said before, IANAL, and
apparently even in cases of blatant infringement there is plenty of
time to take such things down, especially if legal action hasn't been
threatened/taken)
3. As I said before, her comments on IRC were indicative of her not
being too involved in the Toki Pona wikipedia.
4. I *had* asked her a day or so before, and she responded that she
was basically worn out from all the attention she gets over Toki Pona
and thus did not want to talk about it - that was the answer I got
from her. The Toki Pona website otoh has the very ambiguous "(c) toki
pona blah blah blah blah blah blah" which can obviously be taken to
mean that Toki Pona itself is copyrighted. It has of course been noted
that copyrighted material can be released, but as I said before in a
cursory google search I found no implicit or explicit release on the
part of Sonja.
5. "Instead, you caused trouble" implies that my actions were in bad
faith, which I continue to assert they were most certainly *not*.

> As I said, I hope you understand this point. Because, quite honestly,
> if you don't, that's even more troubling than your removal of a whole
> Wikipedia.

What's troubling to me is that people have told me over and over how
bad I am for doing that, that I shouldn'tve done it, that it was
wrong, etc etc etc ad nauseam. I fail to see how one single person can
believe that if they repeat to me basically the same things said
before, many of them seemingly in contradiction to and without
refutation or explicit dissent towards things I have already said.

While the volume of mail from the ML alone about this is annoying in
and of itself, it certainly doesn't help that I have had been
reprimanded similarly by just about everybody in #wikipedia whether it
was gently or harshly, often more than once; I have also had (minor)
issues in other chatrooms and on Wikipedia itself.

What I'm saying here is not that it's unreasonable for people to
respond to an action they find objectionable, but rather that if it's
been said already, you don't need to say it again because I heard it
the first time and quite frankly if this never stops I will probably
end up turning into a bad user (If you think I'm a bad user now, you
wouldn't want to imagine me in that situation). If you want to turn
this into a quickpoll/lynchmob, then fine, but if you're going to turn
it into a tell-him-exactly-what-he-did-wrong-in-2-or-more-paragraphs
fest, please leave me out as I've already heard it all.

--node


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Thanks

body:
LS,

As a thank you to my French friends who changed the capitalisation of
the first character, I have edited the [[fr:Wiktionnaire:Liste des
langues]] by changing all the templates that are used on this page. This
will enable them to get the translations that are on the nl:page for the
languages mentioned.

Thanks again,
    GerardM


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
Really, honestly, do you think I hadn't already heard that? I'm 15; if
I feel I need to know "new skills" regarding something, I know very
well how to ask and I do. And as a piece of advice to you, many people
- myself included only when the advice is being dumped on me by just
about everybody by the truckload - get upset when you give them advice
they have not asked for explicitly.

While I do appreciate advice, I find it extremely annoying that
everybody seems to think I need heaps and heaps of it. Frankly I am
getting more than a little irritated over that.

Of course I realise that nobody (ok, maybe a couple of people who know
very well who they are but whose names I shall not mention) has
anything but the best intentions when they give advice to me at least
in this situation (and of course in most others), but honestly it is
really being dumped on me, basically the same 7 or so things over and
over, in much larger quantities than I actually need, want, or can
accept graciously even if I try (seriously, to not reply to every
single piece of advice people are giving me now with "Heard it. Now
sht up and leave me alone" is taking quite a bit of effort at this
point in time, not because I have anger management issues but because
this is really getting out of hand).

And back to the main topic, similarly while most of the advice that I
have received has been given with nothing but the best intentions but
is at ths point coming across as rude, patronising, unnessecary and a
waste of my and others time, my actions which are being discussed (and
reprimanded by just about everybody under the sun, often way more than
once by the same person) were taken in nothing but the best of faith,
and it did not occur that they would be received this way or that they
would cause so much trouble and anger and whatnot for others, for had
such occured to me beforehand I would most definitely have not done
what I did.

Of course it's probably very difficult for many to see why I'm
becoming so distraught over what seems like a couple of bits of advice
from a few people on the ML, but it's not just what's here but what's
in #wikipedia, in private e-mail correspondence, in PMs, and teh like.
(I have not yet received any "snail mail" regarding this issue) Of
course not everybody here who has given me advice was aware that I
have been flooded with advice recently, so rather than telling people
they shouldn'tve done something that they did and with only the best
of intentions and rather than screaming and yelling at them about it,
I am telling now anybody else who is perhaps thinking of giving me
some advice, in advance: *please*, no more advice for the next couple
of days, especially if it's regarding this particular issue, unless I
indicate explicitly that I want it.

Thank you.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:45:11 -0400, Mark Christensen
<mchristensen at humantech.com> wrote:
> > As far as "very young contributor", I think it is not fair to
> > judge my actions only by my age...
>
> I think the point Jens Ropers was making is that your age and
> inexperience should mitigate the impropriety of your actions.
>
> I would recommend learning two new skills that will make your work with
> other wikipedians more rewarding and successful.  1) wait a day before
> posting a reply, and 2) always approach other people's posts with an
> attitude that says "I understand you have something valuable to say, and
> I'm sure I could learn a lot from you."  If you do these two things,
> I'll bet you'll find that people are much more open to what you have to
> say.
>
> Another funny thing about resistance is that the more you push the more
> people resist.  This cycle can keep going for a long time, but it
> requires that both sides keep pushing.  If you stop fighting and work on
> some problems that both of you care about, you will often find that
> resistance melts away.
>
> --Mark Christensen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Logos please (was Re: toki pona)

body:
Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
> I have little idea how banning works but I'd personally prefer Node
> commit to making or fixing a non-infinite number of logos rather than be
> temporarily banned for impulsively adding copyvio notices en masse.

Mmmm.... Those logos should be uploaded as Wiki.png to the wiki in
question, not just uploaded to meta.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Erik Moeller

body:
Yann-
> Hi,

> Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux distribution, is
> interested to distribute a DVD with an English and French version of
> Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site and included with the
> next distribution, due in next April.

As a responsible organization, we should make Mandrakesoft aware of the
fact that no systematic vetting of all articles for copyright violations
has taken place yet (at least on en:). If they want to take the
responsibility for some guy inserting chapters from a book, or the text of
a paper, or a magazine article, into Wikipedia, then that's OK, but this
*is* a substantial risk, because changing the text on thousands of
distributed DVDs is obviously a lot harder than taking down some bad
revisions from our site.

If Mandrakesoft ends up getting into trouble for this, I would like us to
be able to publicly say "Shit happens, but we told you so" when this hits
Slashdot or the New York Times.

Unfortunately it's a little too easy - and therefore tempting - to create
physical media distributions. We *really* need a working peer review
mechanism in place before we go into that business. Besides fact-checking,
we need a process where there are people who check the text against
subscriber-only electronic archives, offline sources etc. for copyright
violations, for example. This should be less difficult than it sounds if
an expert in the field is checking the article anyway - those people
usually have easy access to material in their field.

Even basic Google searches are often not done. In terms of automated
scanning, we should at least cover Google, groups.google and the
Amazon.com "search inside the book" feature.

Am I the only one who is worried about this?

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

body:
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Am I the only one who is worried about this?

I strongly share your worries.

--Jimbo


body:
Delirium wrote:
> Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone
> appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're
> getting into.

You probably aren't aware that formal talks have been going on for 2
months now.  This wasn't just suggested yesterday, there has been
substantial communication.

--Jimbo


body:
Phil Sandifer wrote:
> I don't think the small but hardcore following necessarily makes their
> views encyclopedic - consider the case of Lyndon LaRouche, which the
> arbcom has ruled ought not be mentioned in articles that do not
> directly pertain to LaRouche. So I would still lean towards this not
> being encyclopedic.

Has the ArbCom actually ruled that LaRouche ought not to be mentioned in
articles that do not directly pertain to LaRouche?  Or is it more accurate
to say that one particular user with a history of problems was instructed
not to do that?  It's an important distinction, because it is not for the
ArbCom to make broad rulings on matters of content alone.

--Jimbo


from_name: Sj

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
> The french
> wikipedia has been labelling all its pictures during summer for that
> perspective, and it was strongly suggested that en does the same as well.

See for instance http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image tagging

--
+sj+


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> While I do appreciate advice, I find it extremely annoying that
> everybody seems to think I need heaps and heaps of it. Frankly I am
> getting more than a little irritated over that.

You apparently spent from 02:48 to 04:32, nearly 2 hours, vandalizing
the tokipona wikipedia, thus requiring Angela to waste time reverting
your changes.  You may find it annoying to have that sort of behavior
result in people giving you advice, but you're lucky it doesn't get
you shunned or banned from the project.

--Jimbo


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
The ruling was that original research developed by Lyndon LaRouche was not
to be inserted into articles which did not concern Lyndon Larouch and his
political activities.

Lyndon LaRouche has put forth a great many creative ideas regarding economic
and political issues. His partisans, in our case User, Herschelkrustofsky,
as a mean of promoting Lyndon LaRouche, inserted the ideas Lyndon LaRouche
has developed into articles on which Lyndon Larouche had expressed ideas
which were not significant form the point of view of the articles.

==Remedies

1) Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may
be removed from any Wikipedia article in which it appears other than the
article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles.

4) Supporters of Lyndon LaRouche are instructed not to add references to
Lyndon directly to articles except where they are highly relevant, and not
to engage in activities that might be perceived as "promotion" of Lyndon
LaRouche.

==Enforcement==
1) Wikipedia users who engage in re-insertion of original research which
originated with Lyndon LaRouche and his movement or engage in edit wars
regarding insertion of such material shall be subject to ban upon
demonstration to the Arbitration Committee of the offense.

3) If an article is protected due to edit wars over the removal of
Lyndon-related material, Admins are empowered (as an exception to normal
protection policy) to protect the version which does not mention Lyndon
LaRouche.

Fred

> From: "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales at wikia.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:19:26 -0700
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] pirate radio station as source (was: Zero0000 has
> blocked Lance6Wins)
>
> Phil Sandifer wrote:
>> I don't think the small but hardcore following necessarily makes their
>> views encyclopedic - consider the case of Lyndon LaRouche, which the
>> arbcom has ruled ought not be mentioned in articles that do not
>> directly pertain to LaRouche. So I would still lean towards this not
>> being encyclopedic.
>
> Has the ArbCom actually ruled that LaRouche ought not to be mentioned in
> articles that do not directly pertain to LaRouche?  Or is it more accurate
> to say that one particular user with a history of problems was instructed
> not to do that?  It's an important distinction, because it is not for the
> ArbCom to make broad rulings on matters of content alone.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


body:
My take on it right now is that lance6wins edits from what can be generally
termed a partisan viewpoint. It is difficult to adequately characterize his
viewpoint in simple terms, for example I don't think he is a settler,
although he may be. Lance6win's perspective is similar to that of [[Daniel
Pipes]], a relatively well know commentator. I think that perspective is
significant and ought to be included in articles relating to the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict but ought to be identified either by reference
to the perspective taken or the source of the material, in the case of the
radio station its perspective is well known to Israelis but can be difficult
to characterize to those unfamiliar with such nuances. At any rate
identifying the perspective of material added to an article is the
responsibility of the person who adds it. Simply taking that perspective and
inserting it into the article as the truth is not acceptable; it needs to be
attributed in some way which identifies it.

Fred

> From: Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:11:46 -0500
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] pirate radio station as source (was: Zero0000 has
> blocked Lance6Wins)
>
> True, but that's a different argument than the pirate radio station. I
> mean, the warrant for inclusion, in that case, is not that it is said
> by a pirate radio station, but that it is a belief of right-wing
> Israeli settlers. And thus the information should be introduced in
> those terms, instead of in terms of a pirate radio station.
>
> -Snowspinner
>
> On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:49 PM, Delirium wrote:
>
>> Phil Sandifer wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think the small but hardcore following necessarily makes
>>> their views encyclopedic - consider the case of Lyndon LaRouche,
>>> which the arbcom has ruled ought not be mentioned in articles that do
>>> not directly pertain to LaRouche. So I would still lean towards this
>>> not being encyclopedic.
>>
>> In this case, I don't think it's directly analogous.  The views of the
>> right-wing Israeli settlers are pretty relevant to the issue of
>> Israeli-Palestinian relations...
>>
>> -Mark
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:21:33 +0800, Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> Node, some friendly advice - Wikipedians are some of the most

D'oh!  You said the A-word.  I hope you asked permission first.

--
+sj+


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] wikipedia is big in China six was once blockade
	again

body:
Ultimately I don't think there is any way we can or should control the
information in Wikipedia in such a way that it would be acceptable to the
security services of China, nor is there any way China with its unstable
political situation can tolerate the information contained in Wikipedia. I
am especially concerned that Wikipedia offers the temptation to people who
reside on the mainland to speak their mind which can result in crippling
consequences for themselves and their families.

Fred

> From: Jiong Sheng <sheng.jiong at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Jiong Sheng <sheng.jiong at gmail.com>, wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:44:55 +0000
> To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia is big in China six was once blockade
> again
>
> Shizhao has again made a formal request to the authority for the lift
> of the blockade. Not sure what's the exact reason yet. There are
> possibly two reasons: 1) A user called [[User:Yaohua2000]], who was
> once blocked by zh: for vandalism and was rejected for his apllication
> for admin, yesterday threatened to report Wikipedia to the government
> for spreading information related to Falun Gong and Taiwan
> Independence. We don't know if he acutally did that and it is because
> of his action that resulted in the blockade.
>
> Another possible cause would be the extensive coverage of the banning
> of another famous BBS board in mainland that was banned recently.
> YTHT, one of the most popular BBS boards in China was banned few weeks
> ago and all other BBS boards were explictly warned not to discuss this
> issue. But of course zh Wikipedia still has an article on this event
> and many former users from YTHT now joined us. This could also have
> exasperated some officials.
>
> I don't know if this time the ban can still be lifted, but the
> experience tells us that, after the ban in June, we took three months
> to recover. And when we finally reach the same level in June in term
> of daily visits, we are banned again.
>
> [[User:formulax]]
>
>
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:34:38 +0000 (UTC), shizhao <shizhao at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On September 23, the wikipedia is big in China six was once blockade again.
>> [[Zh:user:shizhao]] have already confirmed this news from the cstnet.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


body:
Once when I was a cabdriver in Denver I had a passenger, a Jewish person who
had recently immigrated from Russia. When I expressed an opinion she didn't
like she threatened to turn me in to the FBI. (A rather useless gesture
given my background and the fact that expressing a political opinion is
basically a non-event in the United States). But in the Soviet Union turning
folks in who annoyed you was an option as it is in China today. Assuming the
security forces have common sense and are going to be forgiving about a
college student's, or a 13 year old's, posts to the internet is tenuous.

Fred

> From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 05:19:33 -0600
> To: <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia is big in China six was once blockade
> again
>
> Ultimately I don't think there is any way we can or should control the
> information in Wikipedia in such a way that it would be acceptable to the
> security services of China, nor is there any way China with its unstable
> political situation can tolerate the information contained in Wikipedia. I
> am especially concerned that Wikipedia offers the temptation to people who
> reside on the mainland to speak their mind which can result in crippling
> consequences for themselves and their families.
>
> Fred


from_name: Harry Smith

body:
Zero0000 conflates two distinct items:  one is an
illegal radio station Arutz-Sheva (aka A7, Arutz-7);
the other is Israel National News (INN).

There is a long history of illegal radio stations in
Israel, which includes Abie Natan and his Voice of
Peace.  Arutz-7 has been shutdown to the best of my
knowledge. www.offshore-radio.de/israel/column01.htm
or as provided by google:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:zy_f9jEdt2gJ:www.offshore-radio.de/israel/column01.htm+abi+natan+voice+of+peace&hl=en.
its the first hit of a google search on "abi natan
voice of peace".

INN is a different entity.  http://Israelnn.com.  Its
views are quite clear, with no attempt to hide them or
present itself as being uninvolved.

Zero0000 has claimed repeatedly that its news contains
fabricated/imaginary material, yet has declined to
provide examples.

News is often quite different depending upon the
source.  Basic facts are at times misreported. Please
look at coverage by the BBC, NYT, HaAretz, AFP and
INN:

On July 23, a teenage Arab was killed by gunfire in
Beit Hanoun, a built up area in the Northern section
of the Gaza Strip.  The incident was reported in
multiple news sources, including
[http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/23/international/middleeast/23CND-MIDE.html?hp
(NYT)],
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
(BBC)], [http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=66197
(INN)],
[[http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/455377.html
(HaAretz)],
[http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1515&e=2&u=/afp/20040723/wl_mideast_afp/mideast_040723151440
(AFP)].

the circumstances reported vary greatly regarding: the
killers, their activities at the time, the age of the
child, etc.

Lance6Wins.

--- Phil Sandifer <sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> True, but that's a different argument than the
> pirate radio station. I
> mean, the warrant for inclusion, in that case, is
> not that it is said
> by a pirate radio station, but that it is a belief
> of right-wing
> Israeli settlers. And thus the information should be
> introduced in
> those terms, instead of in terms of a pirate radio
> station.
>
> -Snowspinner
>
> On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:49 PM, Delirium wrote:
>
> > Phil Sandifer wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think the small but hardcore following
> necessarily makes
> >> their views encyclopedic - consider the case of
> Lyndon LaRouche,
> >> which the arbcom has ruled ought not be mentioned
> in articles that do
> >> not directly pertain to LaRouche. So I would
> still lean towards this
> >> not being encyclopedic.
> >
> > In this case, I don't think it's directly
> analogous.  The views of the
> > right-wing Israeli settlers are pretty relevant to
> the issue of
> > Israeli-Palestinian relations...
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
Mark Christensen a ?crit:
>>As far as "very young contributor", I think it is not fair to
>>judge my actions only by my age...
>
>
> I think the point Jens Ropers was making is that your age and
> inexperience should mitigate the impropriety of your actions.
>
> I would recommend learning two new skills that will make your work with
> other wikipedians more rewarding and successful.  1) wait a day before
> posting a reply, and 2) always approach other people's posts with an
> attitude that says "I understand you have something valuable to say, and
> I'm sure I could learn a lot from you."  If you do these two things,
> I'll bet you'll find that people are much more open to what you have to
> say.
>
> Another funny thing about resistance is that the more you push the more
> people resist.  This cycle can keep going for a long time, but it
> requires that both sides keep pushing.  If you stop fighting and work on
> some problems that both of you care about, you will often find that
> resistance melts away.
>
> --Mark Christensen

You are so right ! :-)


body:
Delirium a ?crit:
> Erik Moeller wrote:
>
>> Am I the only one who is worried about this?
>>
>>
> Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone
> appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're
> getting into.  When they say they're willing to take the legal risk, do
> they know that there is a non-negligible chance that there are
> copyrighted materials in there somewhere?  Or are they only thinking
> about libel/etc.?  It's possible they're familiar with Wikipedia and
> already know all this, but someone should find out.

The discussion with Mandrakesoft has been ongoing for perhaps 2 months.

Yann is the primary contact with them, and he explained all that with
them. The board has been in copy of most of the mails, and Angela is the
  primary contact for this whole topic.

So, possibly, the first good step to do was already done, and it is not
necessarily to find someone to check out if they already know about this.

If Yann is announcing this for you, it is because the deal is now
public, not because the deal was just suggested yesterday. The french
wikipedia has been labelling all its pictures during summer for that
perspective, and it was strongly suggested that en does the same as well.

ant


from_name: shizhao

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia is big in China six was once blockade again

body:
On September 23, the wikipedia is big in China six was once blockade again.
[[Zh:user:shizhao]] have already confirmed this news from the cstnet.


from_name: Phil Sandifer

body:
Somewhere in between - the ruling was that "Original work which
originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from
any Wikipedia article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon
LaRouche and other closely related articles." and that "Supporters of
Lyndon LaRouche are instructed not to add references to Lyndon directly
to articles except where they are highly relevant, and not to engage in
activities that might be perceived as "promotion" of Lyndon LaRouche."

So the ruling was not targeted at one specific user, but rather at the
class of users who support LaRouche.

-Snowspinner

On Sep 23, 2004, at 4:19 AM, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

> Phil Sandifer wrote:
>> I don't think the small but hardcore following necessarily makes their
>> views encyclopedic - consider the case of Lyndon LaRouche, which the
>> arbcom has ruled ought not be mentioned in articles that do not
>> directly pertain to LaRouche. So I would still lean towards this not
>> being encyclopedic.
>
> Has the ArbCom actually ruled that LaRouche ought not to be mentioned
> in
> articles that do not directly pertain to LaRouche?  Or is it more
> accurate
> to say that one particular user with a history of problems was
> instructed
> not to do that?  It's an important distinction, because it is not for
> the
> ArbCom to make broad rulings on matters of content alone.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject: [WikiEN-l] Occupation of Palestine - edit war

body:
An edit war is brewing over [[Occupation of Palestine]] and [[Israeli
occupation of Palestine]]. I am heavily involved in editing those pages,
and I am an admin. I am determined not to 'break the rules'. I have no
intention of using sysop rights to 'get my way' here.

Jayjg and Gadykozma want these pages to REDIRECT to some other article
-- [[Israeli-Palestinian conflict]], I guess. However, a vfd vote went
heavily against them. Less than 30% voted for redirect, even before I
started editing.

Moreover, the fact that I have added considerable new material means
that there should be a new vote. No such vote has been made.

Any suggestions?

Ed Poor


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
I wonder whether and what extent W should open a dialogue with the
Chinese government to figure out what their content guidelines are,
and whether we can help them understand our NPOV guidelines.

I would like to remind people that the Chinese are a very proud
people (just like Americans) and don't like to be told what to do.
Generally, though, they listen to reason and are eager to look at new
ways of doing things.

I think that we can seriously learn from this exchange, and that it
will help to avoid this kind of block/not block random yoyo.

Thoughts?

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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body:
--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:

> An edit war is brewing over [[Occupation of Palestine]] and
> [[Israeli
> occupation of Palestine]]. I am heavily involved in editing those
> pages,
> and I am an admin. I am determined not to 'break the rules'. I have
> no
> intention of using sysop rights to 'get my way' here.

Very good of you.

> Jayjg and Gadykozma want these pages to REDIRECT to some other
> article
> -- [[Israeli-Palestinian conflict]], I guess. However, a vfd vote
> went
> heavily against them. Less than 30% voted for redirect, even before
> I
> started editing.

> Moreover, the fact that I have added considerable new material
> means
> that there should be a new vote. No such vote has been made.
>
> Any suggestions?

Let the page be for a bit. Thanks for protecting it. Now, you need to
let go and take a walk around the block to get your mind on other
things :)

Left a message in the talk page. Will leave one in its VFD page.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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from_name: Mark Richards

body:
OK, but, of those who don't have internet access, how
many have a computer? The statistic we want is people
with unconnected x86s surely?
Mark

--- Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:

> At 05:40 PM 9/22/2004 -0700, Mark Richards wrote:
>
> >I appreciate the sentiment, but why? There can't be
> >very many people installing the latest Mandrake
> distro
> >who don't have an internet connection?
> >Perhaps some, but really, how many people are going
> to
> >find this more useful than a link on the mandrake
> >desktop?
> >Mark
>
>
http://www.clickz.com/stats/big_picture/demographics/article.php/3316541
>
> shows that for the United States, only 67% of
> urbanites have Internet
> access and 52% of rural inhabitants have it.
>
http://www.clickz.com/stats/markets/broadband/article.php/3409671
> indicates
> that only 29 million broadband users in the US,
> which is a little over 10%,
> so a lot of Americans are relying on non-broadband.
> Having an actual
> physical right-there copy of Wikipedia could be
> quite handy.
>
> I bet a nice market could be school libraries in
> not-so-well-off
> neighborhoods. They could buy a cheap second-hand
> computer, stick a
> Mandrake Wikipedia on it, and presto - a
> top-of-the-line (by some standards
> :) encyclopedia that the kids could even make copies
> of and take home if
> they wanted. I recall someone was asking about this
> very possibility a
> month or so back, he wanted to install Wikipedia in
> some local schools and
> was looking for a way to download the image database
> to go with the text.
>
> > _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Both pages unprotected

body:
Chris,

I unprotected both pages, because I realized belatedly that when I undid
the REDIRECT and added now material -- it was without realizing that
*somebody else* had protected those pages.

I can't find the protected page log, so I don't know who. (And I don't
really care, as long as no one thinks it was me ;-)

Anyway, if you think they should be protected -- either as redirects, or
as my latest version -- I will abide by your decision. I'm gonna upgrade
my "stress thermometer" and go back on vacation!

Ed Poor


subject: [WikiEN-l] Both pages unprotected

body:
I've just put a notice on the page for a time out. I'll see if this
helps defuse the situation without actually blocking it.

I'm hopeful.

--- "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor at abc.com> wrote:

> Chris,
>
> I unprotected both pages, because I realized belatedly that when I
> undid
> the REDIRECT and added now material -- it was without realizing
> that
> *somebody else* had protected those pages.
>
> I can't find the protected page log, so I don't know who. (And I
> don't
> really care, as long as no one thinks it was me ;-)
>
> Anyway, if you think they should be protected -- either as
> redirects, or
> as my latest version -- I will abide by your decision. I'm gonna
> upgrade
> my "stress thermometer" and go back on vacation!

I'll monitor the situation.

I've just put a notice on the page for a time out. I'll see if this
helps defuse the situation without actually blocking it.

I'm hopeful.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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from_name: Brian Corr

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
Dear Mark,

Since you've continued to reply to the whole list, I want to offer you one
final, simple piece of advice here:

Acknowledge that you made a mistake, apologize, say you won't do it again,
and don't explain further why you felt it was justified.

I think that all of us would be happy to see this matter drop and all move
forward in a positive manner, and your taking those actions will most
certainly achieve that.

Sincerely,
Brian (Bcorr)

At 07:30 AM 9/23/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>While I do appreciate advice, I find it extremely annoying that
>everybody seems to think I need heaps and heaps of it. Frankly I am
>getting more than a little irritated over that.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
> ...Wikipedia is a threat to closed
> information, particularly that kind of closed information that
> governments often dislike: information that undercuts assertions
> that
> everything is on track.

Yes, if every other article is about failure of this and breakdown of
that, with Falung and Commies and Free Tibet all over the place, I
would shut it down too.

I want to see articles about increased privatisation, efforts the
government makes in building health, telecom, and transportation
infrastructure. I want to see articles about economic growth in
Shanghai, about schools in remote locations, about the growing
chinese auto assembly and manufacturing capabilities.

These things are happening in China. Not including them in and of
itself is admitting western-bias, which, you are right, the Chinese
authorities don't look kindly upon.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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from_name: Petr Kadlec

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>
	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org> <ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
> Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:, el:,
> jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
>
> The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .

Hmmm...maybe I don't understand what has been done...Should this mean
that these Wikipedias have now their localized logos? If yes, 1. why
isn't cs: among them? 2. I don't think it works (e.g. sk: seems to
still have the old logo, randomly chosen az: seems that the logo
displays correctly only in articles, but the main page still uses the
english logo).

Or, was this only some kind of preliminary work? (Like uploading the
localized PNG file to the Wikipedias -- that has already been done on
cs: [[cs:Image:Wiki.png]].)

Mormegil


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Roman Maurer wrote:

> Peter Gervai pravi:
>
>> Please enlighten me.
>>
>> I see why it is good to be able to call an article [[pH]], so that's
>> okay.
>>
>> However, I fail to see the point why [[ph]] [[pH]] and [[Ph]] have to be
>> different articles.
>
>
> AFAIK *wiktionary* entries are dictionary definitions, not articles.

That's an unnecessarily semantic distinction.  IIRC there was a similar
discussion over Wikipedia some time back over whether it contained
"articles" or "pages".  It really doesn't matter much.  You could say
that Wiktionary "articles" contain "dictionary definitions", but they
also contain other data about the word or term. :-)

Ec


body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>No I don't think so. There are obviously many stubs, incomplete articles and
>so on, but still I think that it is a valuable pice of work.
>Or so I was told. ;o)
>
> Is Wikipedia that bad? ;o)

It is a work in progress.  If it ever stops being in progress it will be
dead.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
We can certainly try.

Fred

> From: Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China
>
> I wonder whether and what extent W should open a dialogue with the
> Chinese government to figure out what their content guidelines are,
> and whether we can help them understand our NPOV guidelines.
>
> I would like to remind people that the Chinese are a very proud
> people (just like Americans) and don't like to be told what to do.
> Generally, though, they listen to reason and are eager to look at new
> ways of doing things.
>
> I think that we can seriously learn from this exchange, and that it
> will help to avoid this kind of block/not block random yoyo.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> =====
> Chris Mahan
> 818.943.1850 cell
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> chris.mahan at gmail.com
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
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> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Roman Maurer

body:
Peter Gervai pravi:

> Please enlighten me.
>
> I see why it is good to be able to call an article [[pH]], so that's okay.
>
> However, I fail to see the point why [[ph]] [[pH]] and [[Ph]] have to be
> different articles.

AFAIK *wiktionary* entries are dictionary definitions, not articles.
--
	Pozdrav,
	  Roman


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi,

Le Thursday 23 September 2004 03:26, Brion Vibber a ?crit :
> On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> > My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
> > Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
> > lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
> > possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
> > (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not
> > a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> > bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that
> > it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed.
>
> Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
> think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
> state. I can't support this as described.

Is Wikipedia that bad? ;o)
No I don't think so. There are obviously many stubs, incomplete articles and
so on, but still I think that it is a valuable pice of work.
Or so I was told. ;o)

Anyway, that's Mandrakesoft decision, it is very beneficial to us, and we
should do as much as we can for this to be successful.

I think that we should remove very small stubs, like say articles with less
than 200 bytes. I think we should also remove anything taggued {{copyvio}} or
{{not NPOV}}. That can be done with a simple SQL query.
Yet this has to be decided.

> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Regards,
Yann

--
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http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Jiong Sheng

body:
Shizhao has again made a formal request to the authority for the lift
of the blockade. Not sure what's the exact reason yet. There are
possibly two reasons: 1) A user called [[User:Yaohua2000]], who was
once blocked by zh: for vandalism and was rejected for his apllication
for admin, yesterday threatened to report Wikipedia to the government
for spreading information related to Falun Gong and Taiwan
Independence. We don't know if he acutally did that and it is because
of his action that resulted in the blockade.

Another possible cause would be the extensive coverage of the banning
of another famous BBS board in mainland that was banned recently.
YTHT, one of the most popular BBS boards in China was banned few weeks
ago and all other BBS boards were explictly warned not to discuss this
issue. But of course zh Wikipedia still has an article on this event
and many former users from YTHT now joined us. This could also have
exasperated some officials.

I don't know if this time the ban can still be lifted, but the
experience tells us that, after the ban in June, we took three months
to recover. And when we finally reach the same level in June in term
of daily visits, we are banned again.

[[User:formulax]]

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:34:38 +0000 (UTC), shizhao <shizhao at gmail.com> wrote:
> On September 23, the wikipedia is big in China six was once blockade again.
> [[Zh:user:shizhao]] have already confirmed this news from the cstnet.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>