from_name: Stephen Forrest

subject: [Wikipedia-l] "How to get a girl"

body:
On 11/12/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> It is a blatant violation of the charter of Wikibooks and takes the
> project in a completely wrong direction.  Wikibooks is not the place for
> any random concept of a book that people may have.  It is a place for
> _textbooks_, and the defining rule needs to be the ability to point to a
> specific course at the early childhood, kindergarten, elementary, junior
> high, high school, or university level in which such a _textbook_ is
> _currently_ used.

Are those truly the criteria?  Then I suggest the whip should be
cracked soon on Wikibooks and these criteria enforced, for a quick
glance at the site (which I haven't paid much attention to before)
suggests that there are many, many projects there now which do not fit
them.  I did a quick scan through "Random module" and "Recent
changes", and could find only a few projects which fit the cited
criteria.

== Clearly acceptable ==
[[A Neutral Look at Operating Systems]]
[[Consciousness studies]]
[[Radiation Oncology]]
[[Set Theory]]
[[Turkish]]

== Somewhat dubious ==
[[Bartending]]
[[Cookbook]]
[[Guide to X11]]
[[Linux for Newbies]]
[[Mac OS X Tiger]]
[[Serial Programming:Modems and AT Commands]]
[[Programming XML]]

I don't deny that these are useful, but I don't think you're going to
find high-school or university courses in bartending, cooking, or in
very specific technologies.  A university computer science curriculum
will have courses in operating systems, sure, but no one I've ever
heard of has courses in MacOS or Linux specifically.

I think these pages are useful, but I don't agree that they fit the
criteria of "textbook for a course at the early childhood,
kindergarten, elementary, junior high, high school, or university
level".  However, I'd guess that community colleges would offer
courses in all of this stuff.  Should "community college" be included
in the list as well?

== Should be on Wikisource ==
[[SA NCS]]
[[The Tragedy of Macbeth]]

== Almost certainly unacceptable ==
[[Conplanet]]
[[Conworld]]
As far as I can see, everything in [[Category:Games]]
Everything in [[Category:Humor]]
[[Self-harm]]

There seem to be an absolutely huge number of game manuals of various
kinds (computer games, role-playing games, collectible card games),
which go into incredible detail: [[Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas]]
even includes a guide on dating strategies for the game's romantic
subplot.

Steve


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Sean Barrett

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: Arbitration Committee members granted checkuser
	tool

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Chris Jenkinson stated for the record:

> What would happen if either of you (Kelly or Sean) disclosed private
> information into the public domain? Aside from ethical concerns, what
> prevents you from doing this?
>
> Chris

I would go to prison.  The [[United States Navy]] doesn't like people
who disclose [[classified information]].

- --
 Sean Barrett     | For days, we survived on
 sean at epoptic.org | nothing but food and water.
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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from_name: Alphax (Wikipedia email)

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration Committee members granted checkuser tool

body:
geni wrote:
> On 11/12/05, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Why?
>
>
> 1.) It looks bad.
> 2.) We haven't exusted the option of not doing it (there are 4 other
> people on the list who haven't caused such high tension situations
> lately)
>
>

To quote David Gerard:

On Wikipedia, the reward for a job well done is another three jobs.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: Matt Brown

body:
On 11/13/05, Chris Jenkinson <chris at starglade.org> wrote:
> As both of you would face legal recourse if you were to divulge private
> information in your day jobs, what do you think the opposition to having
> a comparable legal agreement between the Foundation and people with
> checkuser is due to, given that the situation is reasonably similar?

If I were in their situation: the volunteer relationship.

If you're not paying me, then you get my word and the law.  If those
aren't sufficient, make me an employee and pay me.

IMO, such a legal agreement would be part of an employment contract
and would require compensation.  Legally, a contract requires
compensation anyway.

I suspect the Wikimedia Foundation does not want such a legal
relationship anyway.

-Matt


subject: [WikiEN-l] Probation Committee

body:
Kelly Martin wrote:
> On 11/12/05, Snowspinner <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by
>>with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize,
>>make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages
>>([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just
>>ridiculous.
>
>
> Welcome to Wikipedia High School!  (Yes, Wikipedia is starting to turn
> into a high school, at least from a sociopolitical standpoint.)
>

Given the number of teenagers present, I am entirely unsurprised...

(Next thing we'll have articles about cheeleading squads and revert wars
about which guy at one of the many thousand high schools we have
articles on has gotten the most girls, and who's the biggest slut, and
who looks fat, and...)

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Arbitration Committee members granted checkuser tool

body:
Fred Bauder wrote:
> Maybe you have to have permission to view that page. I'll look into  it
> more.
>
> Fred
>
> On Nov 12, 2005, at 7:53 PM, geni wrote:
>
>> On 11/13/05, Fred Bauder
>> <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The log is at
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:CheckUser
>>>
>>> Fred

Fred,

As an editor with checkuser access, please do not forget to read the
checkuser policy as well as the privacy policy before you start using
the tool.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CheckUser_Policy
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pricacy Policy

Both policies *should* be read by anyone having check user access.

(the first mention the log is only accessible to those with check user
access).

ant


from_name: Sam Korn

body:
On 11/13/05, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> (the first mention the log is only accessible to those with check user
> access).
>
> ant

I thought that was Fred's point: users with CheckUser rights are
supposed to monitor each other.  Admittedly he might have phrased it
more clearly (other above messages bear this out), but the point he
was making is a valid one and is vital to the privacy policy.

Sam


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Help needed for helpdesk-l

body:
On 11/13/05, Wikiacc <wikiacc at gmail.com> wrote:
> [1] I know people like that--a link will be right in front of their
> face and they'll ask, "Where's the link?"

cf the number of people emailing various mailing lists to report
errors and vandalism on the site: they miss the numerous edit buttons.

Sam


body:
BJ?rn Lindqvist wrote:
>>Seeing as there hasn't been much public discussion on this (at least on
>>the English-language Wikipedia) I thought it would be a good idea to let
>>you all know that Raul654, Fred Bauder, Kelly Martin, The Epopt and
>>Jayjg have all been granted access to the checkuser tool[1] (the tool
>>which allows for checking of sockpuppets by giving access to IP
>>addresses, including those of signed-in Wikipedians).
>
>
> My cents: I think this whole checkuser shit is totally re-tarded. It's
> a grave violation of privacy. I have accounts on Wikipedia only
> because I care about my anonymousity (otherwise I would edit as an
> "anon"). I do NOT wan't someone to connect my contributions to my
> identity. Especially not someone I don't know and who identifies
> itself with a random and totally meaningless userid!
>
> Dumb dumb dumb. Stupid stupid stupid.
>
> --
> mvh Bj?rn

Hi Bj?rn,

Checks should be done only on accounts doing abusive edits to Wikipedia
(vandalism, insults, spam, defaming etc...)

If checks are done without any relevant reasons related to abuse, then
those checks are abusive and the person with the checkuser access should
(will) lose it.

The other point is "if you have 3 accounts and do nothing abusive with
these three accounts, and if for some mysterious reason an editor with
check user access publicly indicates these three accounts are owned by
only one person", then, providing the information is abusive and the
person with checkuser access should (will) lose it.

Note that what is "abusive" in having several accounts may vary
depending on wikis. Generally, getting involved in an edit war under
several names is abusive. Generally, voting several times under
different accounts is abusive. However, using one identity to edit
articles in history and another to edit articles related to sex is not
seen as abusive.

Ant


subject: [WikiEN-l] Probation Committee

body:
On 11/13/05, Snowspinner <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by
> with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize,
> make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages
> ([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just
> ridiculous.

I concur entirely.  Elections for directors, advisory committees,
Wikiproject boards -- the elections recently have been endless.  I
feel that much of the momentum of improving Wikipedia has recently
been lost by various users' megalomania and committee-mania.  If there
was advice given to users about how to do certain things (such as
fighting vandalism) and perhaps a list of users to whom questions
could be directed, this would save much time and might well also get
people down to the real business of writing an encyclopaedia [1].

Sam

[1] I have never written an FA from start to finish.


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Tower of Babel - Voting to ignore MoS,
	NCs for language reasons.

body:
On 11/13/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>  [[Myanmar]] with Burma a redirect.
>

Another utterly ridiculous situation.  The country has had a perfectly
good name in English for some centuries now.  Let's have done with it,
move Munich to M?nchen, Venice to Venezia, Milan to Milano, Poland to
Polska, and Austria to ?sterreich.  Who needs English, anyway?


body:
On 11/13/05, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> >  [[Myanmar]] with Burma a redirect.
> >
>
> Another utterly ridiculous situation.  The country has had a perfectly
> good name in English for some centuries now.  Let's have done with it,
> move Munich to M?nchen, Venice to Venezia, Milan to Milano, Poland to
> Polska, and Austria to ?sterreich.  Who needs English, anyway?

Perhaps a more useful example would be moving [[United Kingdom]] to
[[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]] -- certainly
the country's official name, if not its common name.  On the other
hand, I happen to think of the relevant African country as C?te
d'Ivore.  I think most news sources (the ones I read, anyway, TIME and
the Guardian/Observer) do the same.  The BBC might as well.  That, to
me, is its natural name.  (The fact that I am 16 may not be
irrelevant.)

Sam


body:
On 11/13/05, BJ?rn Lindqvist <bjourne at gmail.com> wrote:
> And the stupidest thing of all is that there is absolutely no
> technical need to expose peoples IP addressess at all.

I don't believe there are any plans to.  This is all to deal with
users who abuse sockpuppets.  Hence it has only been granted to ArbCom
users, and those who can use it at that.  The only time I can imagine
when a user might have their IP address identified would be if they
used their IP address without signing in to make an edit.  This
appears to me to be consenting to have their IP address exposed.

However, I agree that to allow this tool to all admins (or some other
wide-ranging group that has nothing to do with dispute resolution) is
foolish and should be avoided.

Sam


body:
On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Also "How do I reference your site" and "can I use your materials"...

Although the links to that are somewhat less blatant...

Sam


from_name: charles matthews

body:
Tony Sidaway wrote

>Another utterly ridiculous situation.  The country has had a perfectly
good name in English for some centuries now.

Tony, Ivory Coast may be argued both ways; but Myanmar cannot.  Burma was a
part of British India, not a 'country'.  It would be wrong for the WP
article to be called anything else besides Myanmar.

Charles


from_name: geni

body:
On 11/13/05, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
> Geni seems to be using this thread as a vehicle to snipe at someone he
> doesn't like, and whom he blames for the recent high profile
> announcement (since retracted) by another editor that he intended to
> leave the wiki.

That is incorrect

>This thread isn't the place.

Trying to censor the mailing list now?

--
geni


body:
On 11/13/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Tony Sidaway <f.crdfa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Geni seems to be using this thread as a vehicle to snipe at someone he
> > doesn't like, and whom he blames for the recent high profile
> > announcement (since retracted) by another editor that he intended to
> > leave the wiki.
>
> That is incorrect
>
> >This thread isn't the place.
>
> Trying to censor the mailing list now?

Please, no provocative comments.  From either of you.

Sam


body:
On 11/13/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> You didn't look very hard, did you?  Or have you determined that "Sean
> Barrett" is a "random and totally meaningless userid" and not a "real
> life name," just like "Fred Bauder," "James Forrester," and all the rest
> of those terribly clever aliases we use?

I am going to guess that you are all more identifiable than those
examining the server logs at Google, who could also release your IP if
they saw fit.

Sam


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: cluster monitoring

body:
Mark Bergsma wrote:
<snip>
> Yes. Although larousse is getting old, and the install running on it is
> too. We might want to do a reinstall before that.

Fedora Core 2 actually, should I ask Solar to upgrade it to FC3 so ? :o)

>>Reusing gmetad data is probably a better idea, the data in nagios and
>>ganglia would be the same. One of the problems is that we will have to
>>code a nagios plugin that cache the gmetad data to avoid multiples
>>queries (we probably dont want to query gmetad for cpu, then for memory
>>then for nfs call, then for each disk space usage).
>
> I don't know ganglia too well, but this seems like the best option to
> investigate. If ganglia is flexible and uncomplicated enough to add new
> metrics easily, then this could certainly work.

Tim Starling added a metric for NFS server calls. So we can probably add
some more stuff.

> Can we use SNMP for devices that support it, and use ganglia for the rest?
>
> In my experience, SNMP is nice and easy for things that the standard
> net-snmpd supports, but it gets nasty beyond that, i.e. if you want to
> add things yourself...

In my experience, adding new measures in snmp is easy. You have to add
the script that return data, then it generates the oid accordingly.
Debian got some nice examples in the snmd.conf .

Can we start installing snmpd on all servers to at least get some basic
data ? :o)

cheers,

--
Ashar Voultoiz - WP++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hashar
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wikitech/
IM: hashar at jabber.org  ICQ: 15325080


body:
On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> To me, the name of Burma is Myanmar; the natural name of Zaire is the
> Democratic Republic of the Congo; and so on and so forth.

No one uses Zaire though. it wasn't a massively popular name when the
country was called Zaire

> And yes, the Ivory Coast is properly C?te d'Ivoire. Yes, the French beat
> the British in naming a country. GET OVER IT.

It's proper name is of no imporance. That isn't what the MOS says.

--
geni


from_name: Kelly Martin

body:
On 11/13/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> For my income, I am a manager of a secure military network, compromise
> of which would be ... bad.
>
> I have a fair understanding of privacy and security issues.

Since we're discussing qualifications: I am the network manager for a
financial services firm; systems under my supervision store personal
and financial information for our clients and business partners.
Privacy and security issues are obviously a significant part of my
job.

Kelly


body:
On 11/13/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Please, no provocative comments.  From either of you.
>
> Sam

Hey it isn't an issue until me and tony end up on the oposite sides.

--
geni


body:
On 11/13/05, geni <geniice at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey it isn't an issue until me and tony end up on the oposite sides.

Note to self: don't get on the wrong side of Geni.

Sam


from_name: Ivan Krstic

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: cluster monitoring

references:
<dl09q7$jne$1@sea.gmane.org> <4374EF03.6020302@nedworks.org>
	<dl7gmk$s7f$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> In my experience, adding new measures in snmp is easy. You have to add
> the script that return data, then it generates the oid accordingly.

It's basically the same thing with ganglia metrics.

--
Ivan Krstic <krstic at fas.harvard.edu> | 0x147C722D


from_name: BJörn Lindqvist

body:
> There are times when it is very useful to know if two or more accounts
> come from the same ip. There are also times when we need to know which
> ISP to send complaints to.

Well, obviously it is. However hat usefulness is not more important
than protecting the privacy of our contributors.

--
mvh Bj?rn


body:
> No one with CheckUser privileges has a "random and totally meaningless
> userid."  If you want to point to a specific individual, please don't be
> disingenuous about it.

Then maybe you can tell me where there Arbitration Committe's real
life names are? It surely isn't on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee where I
would have expected it.

--
mvh Bj?rn


body:
On 11/13/05, BJ?rn Lindqvist <bjourne at gmail.com> wrote:
> Each time an edit is comitted from an unknown IP address a new
> proxy-to-ip-pair is added to the mapping. MediaWiki could then simply
> look in the mapping for the proxy which has a certain IP. In the
> example above, the proxy would be "anon1". And the "userid" field in
> the row would contain "anon1" instead of "34.19.215.33". Preferably
> only a few key developers and the MediaWiki software should be allowed
> access to the proxy-to-IP mapping.
>
> Checkuser would still work, but instead of returning an IP as a result
> could return "user: [[foobar]], [[barfoo]] and [[anon9512]] shares an
> IP address." Etc. There are technical solutions.

This would be largely useless.  A lot of the time, we're dealing with
people on dynamic dialup ranges that change frequently.  We use
checkuser for more than just identifying that person X and person Y
have used the same IP address.  One case I looked at yesterday
involved a credible allegation of sockpuppetry where the two users had
no actual overlapping IPs but were likely (but not convincingly) the
same person because, amongst other evidence, I could tell that they
used the same ISP and lived in the same city.  (Other compelling
evidence is that the first editor's edits end before the second's
start, with about one hour from last edit of the first to first of the
second, that the first editor was banned, and editing time of day
patterns for both editors).  Your "solution" would have hidden the ISP
information from me.

Kelly


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Michael-Forest

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for language: (Jersey) Norman

body:
I'm making a request that J?rriais (Jersey Norman) be created for the list
of Wikipedias (and a wiki thus be created). I couldn't find any protocol for
making such requests, but I expect reasons should be given, so I'll list
several here. I apologize if this is unnecessary (and if so, feel free to
ignore the following).

Norman as a language is native to Normandy and the Channel Islands. Jersey
Norman, or J?rriais, is the most-spoken, highest-profile, and most
literarily accomplished of the Insular Norman dialects. Much more
information appears to be available in and about it on the web (in part
thanks to *Les Pages J?rriaises* and the *Section de la Langue J?rriaise de
la Soci?t? Jersiaise*) than Continental Norman, as well. I am unaware of the
speakership of Continental Norman (last I checked, a survey had not been
done), but J?rriais has thousands of speakers, and is generally considered
the dominant dialect of Norman.

J?rriais has a comprehensive J?rriais-French dictionary, and an
English-J?rriais dictionary is in the works. Software, books, and cassettes
are available to teach and learn the language, and it is being taught in
Schools in Jersey. (I know that Continental Norman is being taught [often as
a dead language] in some universities in Normandy, but I am unaware of other
educational activity among the dialects). J?rriais has an ongoing radio
program(me), and several books have been published in and on the language,
including *J?rri Jadis* and *Histouaithes et Gens d'J?rri*.

Linguistically, Norman is one of the *langues d'o?l*, closely related to
French, but with its own history reaching back hundreds of years (notably
marked by the writings of Wace in the twelfth century, who may be considered
the earliest Norman?indeed, J?rriais, for he was from Jersey?writer), as
well as its own idioms, grammar, and vocabulary. Major dialectal groups of
Norman include Old Norman*, the Insular dialects (two to four major living
dialects, depending where one draws the line, and one dead), Continental
Norman, and Anglo-Norman* (the ruling language of England for a few
centuries).

Unfortunately, as Jersey Norman has not yet been adopted as an official
language (previously, this was felt unnecessary?the two political languages,
English and Jersey French, have been Jersey's official languages), but work
is being done on a GCSE program in J?rriais, and extensive efforts are being
made to revive the language. However, it is because of J?rriais' lack of
official status that it, currently, has no language code. I propose the code
"jer" be used, and that J?rriais be adopted as the official Norman dialect
used for Wikipedia.

More reasons could be listed, but I feel this will suffice.

Thank you,
Mich?-For?t M?ss?rvy


body:
On 11/13/05, Chris Jenkinson <chris at starglade.org> wrote:
> What would happen if either of you (Kelly or Sean) disclosed private
> information into the public domain? Aside from ethical concerns, what
> prevents you from doing this?

At work or on Wikipedia?

At work, I would risk being fired, sued, and possibly prosecuted.

On Wikipedia?  It would be wrong.  It would also be breaking several
promises I've made.

Kelly


body:
On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Better rename all the articles on French towns, people and business in
> France then, too.

Execept that with the exception of a few big ones they don't really
have common english names.

--
geni


body:
On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> I can't believe that Wikimedia is still having problems grasping the
> wiki concept. Why should I even need an account? Why do I need to ask
> any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the
> questions?

Because people writing to the Wikimedia Foundation don't expect their
messages being read by the whole world, for one thing.  As to write
access being restricted, imagine the fun some of our favorite trolls
would have, answering Wikipedia's email.

-Matt


body:
On 11/13/05, Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/05, BJ?rn Lindqvist <bjourne at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My cents: I think this whole checkuser shit is totally re-tarded. It's
> > a grave violation of privacy. I have accounts on Wikipedia only
> > because I care about my anonymousity (otherwise I would edit as an
> > "anon"). I do NOT wan't someone to connect my contributions to my
> > identity. Especially not someone I don't know and who identifies
> > itself with a random and totally meaningless userid!
> >
> > Dumb dumb dumb. Stupid stupid stupid.
>
> That is why it is only being used by a trusted set of users and only under
> strict terms. The developers have always had the ability to see your IP. The
> ArbCom needs it to check for sock puppets.

The rules will be bent. Admins will use the checkuser tool for smaller
and smaller infractions until it becomes in reality practically no
restriction whatsoever in using the tool. It's the same thing with
bans. And this may be a potshot: But I remember a certain person on
this mailing list some years ago outing a user called "EofT" by
publishing his real life name. It makes me think that people do not
respect other peoples privacy and that similar things will happen more
frequently in the future thanks to checkuser...

And the stupidest thing of all is that there is absolutely no
technical need to expose peoples IP addressess at all.

--
mvh Bj?rn


body:
On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could be worse; could be Jimbo...

I'll conceed he's worse in the sort run but I can be more persistant.
Nah I think the me tony Sideway thing is mostly down to a complete
clash of world views (although I think we both support alowing anons
to edit although I suspect for different reasons)

--
geni


from_name: Delirium

subject: [WikiEN-l] Personal information - where do we draw the line

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>My own opinion is that in most cases we should publish real names if any
>mainstream media outlet has done so first.  We should not (usually)
>regard blogs and hate sites as sufficiently reliable confirmation for
>real names.  We never post anyone's home address (since this is just
>totally unencyclopedic and irrelevant to our mission anyway), though of
>course there could be some bizarre exceptions I suppose.
>
>

I agree with that, and think this is similar (though not identical) to
the more general issue of publishing supposedly secret information that
is not really secret (or has been previously leaked by someone other
than us).  On most such cases we seem to have come to a pro-publication
consensus, with the caveat that we should only publish it if it's
actually useful to have in the article, not solely to give a "fuck you"
to the people trying to keep it secret.

This has come up in a number of cases:
-- The semi-secret higher-level books of Scientology
-- Some semi-secret (or at least considered private) aspects of Mormon
temple practices
-- Details of how some U.S. military training programs work, based on
published exposes in magazines
-- Information on classified military programs in general
-- Secrets of fraternal societies like the Freemasons

In most of those cases, there have been people who have tried to remove
information, others who have tried to add more information mostly for
the sake of doing so, and a bunch in between who have generally hammered
out a compromise.

Personal information is slightly different, in that it can harm a
particular person, but in a certain sense that's not all that
different---at least one person has suggested that publishing non-public
information on military training programs could lead to soldiers'
deaths, and therefore that Wikipedia irresponsible in publishing it.

-Mark


body:
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Chris Jenkinson stated for the record:

> Kelly Martin wrote:
>
>> On 11/13/05, Chris Jenkinson <chris at starglade.org> wrote:
>>
>>> What would happen if either of you (Kelly or Sean) disclosed private
>>> information into the public domain? Aside from ethical concerns, what
>>> prevents you from doing this?
>>
>>
>>
>> At work or on Wikipedia?
>>
>> At work, I would risk being fired, sued, and possibly prosecuted.
>>
>> On Wikipedia?  It would be wrong.  It would also be breaking several
>> promises I've made.
>
>
> As both of you would face legal recourse if you were to divulge private
> information in your day jobs, what do you think the opposition to having
> a comparable legal agreement between the Foundation and people with
> checkuser is due to, given that the situation is reasonably similar?

The situation is not reasonably similar; it's not even remotely similar.

Disclosure of the information I handle at work would immediately and
directly endanger lives and damage national security, and I am rather
well paid for accepting the responsibility.

Disclosure of a Wikipedian's IP address can only lead to harm through
tortuous chains of unlikely happenstance, and the privilege of
contributing to Wikipedia's success is not sufficient compensation to
persuade me to accept the possibility of a prison term.

If legal liability were a requirement of the position, I doubt you would
find many volunteers for the Arbitration Committee.

- --
 Sean Barrett     | For days, we survived on
 sean at epoptic.org | nothing but food and water.
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body:
On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> geni wrote:
> Well, here's an example of a German company (couldn't think of any
> French ones): Telefonica Deutchland. Should the article on them be
> called "German Telecom"???

No becuase that is not how they are know in english. Much as the pre
euro currency of germany was not know as the german mark

> HELLO!!!!!!!!! DID WE LOSE OUR BRAINS SOMEWHERE ALONG THE ROAD TO
> POLITICAL CORRECTNESS????????

huh?

--
geni


body:
Michael-Forest wrote:

>Norman as a language is native to Normandy and the Channel Islands. Jersey
>Norman, or J?rriais, is the most-spoken, highest-profile, and most
>literarily accomplished of the Insular Norman dialects. Much more
>information appears to be available in and about it on the web (in part
>thanks to *Les Pages J?rriaises* and the *Section de la Langue J?rriaise de
>la Soci?t? Jersiaise*) than Continental Norman, as well. I am unaware of the
>speakership of Continental Norman (last I checked, a survey had not been
>done), but J?rriais has thousands of speakers, and is generally considered
>the dominant dialect of Norman.
>
>
It may not be an issue if there are not many speakers of Continental
Norman, but are the dialects mutually intelligible, at least in written
form?  That is, if at some point in the future some Continental Norman
speakers wanted a Wikipedia, could they coexist in one Wikipedia, as
British and American English do, or would a second Norman Wikipedia have
to be created?

-Mark


body:
On 11/13/05, Chris Jenkinson <chris at starglade.org> wrote:
> As both of you would face legal recourse if you were to divulge private
> information in your day jobs, what do you think the opposition to having
> a comparable legal agreement between the Foundation and people with
> checkuser is due to, given that the situation is reasonably similar?

Well, I'm not being paid by the Foundation; I'm not inclined to accept
significant liability without receiving significant benefit in
exchange.  In that respect, the situation is not "reasonably similar".

Kelly


subject: [WikiEN-l] Probation Committee

body:
Ilya N. wrote:
> I resent that statement.
>

I resent your misquoting. Here it is again:

Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
> Kelly Martin wrote:
>
>>On 11/12/05, Snowspinner <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by
>>>with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize,
>>>make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages
>>>([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just
>>>ridiculous.
>>
>>
>>Welcome to Wikipedia High School!  (Yes, Wikipedia is starting to turn
>>into a high school, at least from a sociopolitical standpoint.)
>>
>
>
> Given the number of teenagers present, I am entirely unsurprised...
>
> (Next thing we'll have articles about cheeleading squads and revert wars
> about which guy at one of the many thousand high schools we have
> articles on has gotten the most girls, and who's the biggest slut, and
> who looks fat, and...)
>
>

I was talking about the high school mentality, thankyou.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Status of Serbia and Montenegro chapter

body:
Yes, but if you'll recall, my point in making that statement is that
separate cultures does not equal separate languages. Thus, while Hui
and Han cultures are very different, most of them speak the same
language.

Similarly, I think that Bosnians, Serbians, and Croatians can be
considered to speak the same language, and thus don't need separate
Wikipedias based on linguistic criteria alone.

Milos seems to think that culture = language, and thus Bosnians and
Croatians, having different cultures, automatically have separate
languages.

Mark

On 13/11/05, Michael Snow <wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >Languages and cultures are two very separate entities.
> >
> Distinct, perhaps, in the sense that they have different definitions
> that should not be confused with each other. But suggesting that
> languages and cultures can be cleanly separated from each other as
> entities is absurd.
>
> --Michael Snow
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Boycot

body:
>
> Well, you told me that the "anti-Zlatiborians will be first against the
> wall when the revolution comes" (or words to that effect); who's got the
> moral high ground now?

Alphax, the difference here is between a suggestion of what _should_
be, and a statement of what _is_. Thus, while it's not at all
unacceptable to talk about how anti-Zlatiborians will face harsh
punishment at the hands of a higher power, it is certainly
unacceptable to suggest that such-and-such people _should_ be shot
(though I must admit I've said this before).

Mark

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


body:
On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> geni wrote:
> > On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>geni wrote:
> >>Well, here's an example of a German company (couldn't think of any
> >>French ones): Telefonica Deutchland. Should the article on them be
> >>called "German Telecom"???
> >
> >
> > No becuase that is not how they are know in english. Much as the pre
> > euro currency of germany was not know as the german mark
> >
>
> The Arc de'Triomphe? The Moulin Rouge?

We drop the apostrophe. Other than that english tends to follow the
french on that one probably because the result of transalteing to
english would sound horible (red mill I mean what kind of name is
that?). Short french phrases are quite common in english. Entente
Cordiale for example. However historicaly we tend to anglisise names
of countries with the result that ivory coast is the more common name
at this present time. Perhaps this will change but for the time being
like Mecca the "Proper name" is not the one in common use.

--
geni


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Boycot

body:
Milos says the point is to not boycott me, but he is clearly ignoring
all of my e-mails, 100%.

On 13/11/05, Milos Rancic <millosh at mutualaid.org> wrote:
> While Mark did irritated me (and as I did talk against some of Mark's
> foolish behaviour), I was never talking that Mark is the most
> important problem. The most important problem is community response
> about one hoax!

Right. The community, whose response was already enough that a
Zlatiborian WP would never be created, BEFORE any non-Zlatiborian
Serbians voted.

> 1. Political decisions about some scientific (even sociological) fact
> is very very bad. We should have comity for Wikipedias in new
> languages. (I.e., I hope that we would not make political decision
> that Earth is flat.)

In that case, quit saying how "nessecary" separate WPs in the (former)
Yugoslavian "languages" are, since their separateness as actual
languages is based entirely on political and social considerations
rather than scientific.

> 2. The most irritating and the most dangerous Mark's characteristic is
> that he doesn't have responsibility about his steps inside of other
> cultures. Wiki(p|m)edian community is growing into global cultural
> movement and community response to such things should be strong: (1)
> while separatism and nationalism are far a way of the most of
> Westernernes, (2) while I left 10 years of my life inside of such
> bullshit and I am very nervous when someone attacks me on that field,
> (3) in some cultures this is the question of life and death. (Note
> that it can be something other then separatism and nationalism.)

...you're making a lot of assumptions about "Westernernes".

> And about Mark: I am sure that some people know him better. Please
> talk with him. He has enough of time to change himself.

And I am sure that there are people who know you well enough to
convince you to not talk anymore about what sorts of people should be
killed or isolated from society for their opinions and expression of
them.

Do you honestly think that by me supporting a Zlatiborian WP,
Zlatiborians and Serbians will suddenly break out into war? Such wars
do not happen just because a 16-year-old member of the Wikimedia
community supports a new Wikipedia. And if they do, I don't think life
would be much worth living anymore...

I mean, even if Jimbo Wales said that China sucks, the world is flat,
and that South America should be nuked, that shouldn't start a war.

Mark

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


body:
Mich?-For?t (or is it Michael-Forest?),

Do you speak Djeriais?

Mark

On 13/11/05, Michael-Forest <knighteddawn at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm making a request that J?rriais (Jersey Norman) be created for the list
> of Wikipedias (and a wiki thus be created). I couldn't find any protocol for
> making such requests, but I expect reasons should be given, so I'll list
> several here. I apologize if this is unnecessary (and if so, feel free to
> ignore the following).
>
> Norman as a language is native to Normandy and the Channel Islands. Jersey
> Norman, or J?rriais, is the most-spoken, highest-profile, and most
> literarily accomplished of the Insular Norman dialects. Much more
> information appears to be available in and about it on the web (in part
> thanks to *Les Pages J?rriaises* and the *Section de la Langue J?rriaise de
> la Soci?t? Jersiaise*) than Continental Norman, as well. I am unaware of the
> speakership of Continental Norman (last I checked, a survey had not been
> done), but J?rriais has thousands of speakers, and is generally considered
> the dominant dialect of Norman.
>
> J?rriais has a comprehensive J?rriais-French dictionary, and an
> English-J?rriais dictionary is in the works. Software, books, and cassettes
> are available to teach and learn the language, and it is being taught in
> Schools in Jersey. (I know that Continental Norman is being taught [often as
> a dead language] in some universities in Normandy, but I am unaware of other
> educational activity among the dialects). J?rriais has an ongoing radio
> program(me), and several books have been published in and on the language,
> including *J?rri Jadis* and *Histouaithes et Gens d'J?rri*.
>
> Linguistically, Norman is one of the *langues d'o?l*, closely related to
> French, but with its own history reaching back hundreds of years (notably
> marked by the writings of Wace in the twelfth century, who may be considered
> the earliest Norman?indeed, J?rriais, for he was from Jersey?writer), as
> well as its own idioms, grammar, and vocabulary. Major dialectal groups of
> Norman include Old Norman*, the Insular dialects (two to four major living
> dialects, depending where one draws the line, and one dead), Continental
> Norman, and Anglo-Norman* (the ruling language of England for a few
> centuries).
>
> Unfortunately, as Jersey Norman has not yet been adopted as an official
> language (previously, this was felt unnecessary?the two political languages,
> English and Jersey French, have been Jersey's official languages), but work
> is being done on a GCSE program in J?rriais, and extensive efforts are being
> made to revive the language. However, it is because of J?rriais' lack of
> official status that it, currently, has no language code. I propose the code
> "jer" be used, and that J?rriais be adopted as the official Norman dialect
> used for Wikipedia.
>
> More reasons could be listed, but I feel this will suffice.
>
> Thank you,
> Mich?-For?t M?ss?rvy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
Hoaxes aside, many people do consider Andalus to be a separate
language, and there are thousands of references on the internet to
"idioma andaluh", "idioma andalu", "idioma andaluz", etc. etc.

Anticipating such a request, I started an Andaluz Test-WP before it
was even requested...  hah.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/and/

Cheers,
Mark

On 13/11/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
> > appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation
> > here.
> >
> > Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name
> > is Andal?h.
>
> Andalusian is a dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
> 14th edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
> and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
>
> Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian is
> less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian
> is already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian
> Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the purposes of Wikimedia,
> Andalusian is effectively Spanish.
>
> Timwi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


body:
Hi Anthere

> Checks should be done only on accounts doing abusive edits to Wikipedia
> (vandalism, insults, spam, defaming etc...)
 > If checks are done without any relevant reasons related to abuse, then
> those checks are abusive and the person with the checkuser access should
> (will) lose it.

Just like admins wrongfully blocking accounts are also supposed to
have their admin status revoked? Please realize that the two actions
have very different worst cases.

Blocking: Worst case: You do not get to write in Wikipedia for a while.

IP Checking: Worst case: Someone who doesn't like you get your ip
checked, calls your ISP and talks with a clueless receptionist who
reveals your real life name. That person then publishes your name
somewhere. Your boss who happens to also be a Wikipedia user finds out
about it and fires you because s/he think your political stuff you've
written on Wikipedia suck. So some brat on WIkipedia cost you your
employment.

You don't even need to be an ArbCom member to do that. Let's say a
veteran editor like Ed Poor asks for an ip check. Will an ArbCom
member oblige? Yes, because Ed Poor is trusted. So your only job is to
convince Ed Poor to ask for an ip check. For more details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_hacking With the checkuser tool it
becomes so much easier.

If you have ever met a political refugee, you know that they often are
very careful not to talk politics with persons they don't know.
Especially not with strangers from their own home country. The reason
is that they fear secret agents from their home country. Often this
fear is unfounded paranoia (there aren't THAT many secret agents in
the world), sometimes it is not. Their worst case checkuser scenario
is even worse than the worst case scenario I described two paragraphs
above.

That's why I hate the checkuser shit - (mis)uses of the tool can have
very detrimental real-life effects on real-life persons. Something
that nothing other on the silly text game Wikipedia can have.

--
mvh Bj?rn


body:
On 11/13/05, Jack Lynch <jack.i.lynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is exactly the sort of attitude that horrifies me. People who
> speak like this should have no power whatsoever:

What, realists?

Sam


from_name: Travis Mason-Bushman

subject: [WikiEN-l] Deletionitis

body:
Yes sir, those fanatical deletionists are out to destroy the Wikipedia
again. Those like-minded thugs are the definition of evil.

There's an "ad-hoc" policy that every single school gets kept, thanks to
"fanatical inclusionists" who as a "group of like-minded individuals can all
en block vote" to keep them. "Then when someone comes along and says 'hey,
this is ridiculous in this case' the chorus jumps up and says 'that's
policy. We've kept 'x' number on these grounds. If you oppose this you are
opposing policy'. Others then think that if it is policy it must have been
defined and discussed somewhere, so they, even though it seems illogical,
don't stand up to the block, meaning more and more articles get kept in
effect by an ad hoc policy set by a few likeminded individuals who are
always on the page voting."

See how that works the other way too?

-Travis Mason-Bushman
FCYTravis @ en.wikipedia


body:
On 11/13/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Nonetheless, my correspondent asks me an interesting question: where do
> we draw the line?
>
> As a practical matter, I think what we follow is a non-policy in this
> area, that is to say, we follow the same exact policies we follow for
> all sorts of information: is it verifiable, is it NPOV?

I don't think we should treat personal information any differently to
any other information.  If there is evidence, cite it.  If that
evidence is not good enough, then the name *cannot* go in the article.
 Our verifiability policy already provides for this.  Example: we can
say that Bill Bryson was born and grew up in Des Moines, because he
says so in his books.  We could also say that his wife is British,
because he says so in his books.  However, we could not publish his
current home address, or the names of his children, becuase these have
never been quoted elsewhere.

Basically, the presence of someone's name/personal information in
Wikipedia should never increase their danger.  The information should
only go in if it is already incontrovertibly in the public domain.
WP:V and WP:NOR provide for this.  The person's information would
already be in the public domain, so there's no worry about keeping it
there.

> My own opinion is that in most cases we should publish real names if any
> mainstream media outlet has done so first.  We should not (usually)
> regard blogs and hate sites as sufficiently reliable confirmation for
> real names.  We never post anyone's home address (since this is just
> totally unencyclopedic and irrelevant to our mission anyway), though of
> course there could be some bizarre exceptions I suppose.

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington D.C.
20500
USA

Sam


from_name: Andrew Gray

body:
On 13/11/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:

> > We never post anyone's home address (since this is just
> > totally unencyclopedic and irrelevant to our mission anyway), though of
> > course there could be some bizarre exceptions I suppose.
>
> 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
> Washington D.C.

We publish quite a few, though rarely in the sense of literal street
addresses - residents of individual buildings notable enough for an
article, for example, or politicians with ex-officio residences as in
this case.

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk


body:
On 11/13/05, Mark Gallagher <m.g.gallagher at student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>
> G'day geni,

> No worries.  Anyone here good with Francais?  Let's take a few French
> names that can be translated to English and insist on using them.  We
> needn't restrict it to towns, either: you know that "Jean" bloke at work
> who your secretary keeps daydreaming about?  From now on, call him
> "John" and see how he reacts.
>
> How about the reverse?  I noticed, the other day, that a town in the USA
> (sorry, "the world") bears the ridiculous name of "Sugar Land, Texas".
> I see no reason why fr-WP shouldn't call it "Terre De Sucre".  It is,
> after all, the *French* Wikipedia, and Texans should not be allowed to
> dictate to them anymore than Ivorians can dictate to us.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Mark Gallagher

The MOS calls for the most commonly used name. French people called
Jean are commonly called Jean. However major relgious centres called
Makkah are commonly called Mecca.

--
geni


body:
On 11/13/05, Andrew Gray <shimgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13/11/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/13/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> > > We never post anyone's home address (since this is just
> > > totally unencyclopedic and irrelevant to our mission anyway), though of
> > > course there could be some bizarre exceptions I suppose.
> >
> > 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
> > Washington D.C.
>
> We publish quite a few, though rarely in the sense of literal street
> addresses - residents of individual buildings notable enough for an
> article, for example, or politicians with ex-officio residences as in
> this case.

I think (*think*) that was my point. ;=)

Sam


from_name: Chip Berlet

subject: [WikiEN-l] People editing their own Wikipedia articles.

body:
Hi,

Consider the situation from the point of view of a Wiki editor whose entry repeatedly has been attacked and filled with false claims and defamatory text. My real name is Chip Berlet.  I discovered my entry after being on Wiki for a short time when I got an e-mail from a reporter asking me why I had hid the fact that I had been a member of SDS, a radical group in the U.S. in the 1960s.  I had never been a member of SDS,  I responded.  It's all over the Internet, he replied.

Sure enough, it was all over the Internet, but is was not true.  I tracked it back to an entry made by a LaRouche supporter here on Wiki.  I deleted the false information, and was immediately embroiled in a controversy over whether or not it was proper for me to edit my own entry.  Forget that the entry was false, and given that I am freelance journalist, potentially defamatory, and certainly something that threatend my ability to earn a living.

Since then, several Wiki editors with whom I have had a disagreement have gone out of their way to add negative text to my entry.  Currently, one Wiki editor has added a large amount of false and defamatory material to my entry.  This material has appeared on various websites and print publications, but it simply is not true. This editor is also in the middle of a lengthy mediation with me that has been protracted and not to his/her liking. Editing my entry is a form of juvenile retribution.

Am I supposed to publish a printed document refuting false statements plonked onto my entry by cult lunatics, right-wing fanatics, and just plain jerks? Am I supposed to rely on sympathetic and honest Wiki editors who take the time to demand documentation and evidence on my behalf on my entry page?  Am I supposed to leave the false and defamatory on my page in the meantime?

Am I pissed off?

YES!

I do not have an answer to these question, but I do know that the typical anarcho-libertarian response that it will all work out in the long run is not very statisfying when someone is filling up your entry with crap.

-Cberlet
aka
Chip Berlet


from_name: Timwi

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> We use otrs for this sort of thing.

Who or what are "we"?


list: foundation-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Incubator Wiki for New Wikimedia Projects

body:
Robert Scott Horning wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>> Anthony DiPierro wrote:
>>
>>> As for Wikijunior, well, I find it hard to see how that's not a book,
>>> but that's a completely different discussion.
>>
>> The discussions for Wikiversity and Wikijunior have been going on for
>> some time already.  Whatever one thinks of them, I don't think that
>> their issues are the kind that would be solved in a seed project.
>> The purpose of a seed project would be primarily to see if there is
>> enough interest to sustain an otherwise acceptable project.  The
>> problems connected with Wikiversity and Wikijunior are different; I
>> have no doubt that if started both could easily meet the
>> participation critera..  Neither project should be a part of this
>> discussion.
>
> The problem with Wikiversity and Wikijunior is that they should have
> been new proposed Wikimedia projects instead of something different.
> Wikijunior, IMHO, was "forced" upon Wikibooks, and with the plan to
> turn Wikijunior more into a kids version of Wikipedia, the connection
> with Wikibooks is far less than what it could have been in the past.
> Wikijunior is precisely what the seed wiki would be about... to get a
> community going on a concept and see if there will be some viability
> for keeping that community going.  Many Wikicities projects only last
> a few weeks or months before they die out, and it would be a good idea
> to see if that would happen before something gets the status of a full
> Wikimedia sister project.  This seed wiki can provide that objective
> view about some project idea.
>
> Why Wikijunior in particular is a part of this discussion is because
> it is an objective example of what kind of project could be started on
> the seed wiki.  It should have started on a seed wiki rather than on
> Wikibooks, especially with the Beck Foundation grant and other issues
> that still have yet to be explained fully within the Wikijunior
> community, and some significant policy differences between Wikijunior
> and Wikibooks.  I also have my doubts as to if Wikijunior could in
> fact get the necessary participation criteria, but I'm willing to wait
> and see.

As long as Wikijunior was only for producing age-appropriate textbooks
for children it was probably fine in Wikibooks.  Something, however,
which specifically seeks the participation of children is something
else.  I think that the participation level may be easy to attain.  A
far more worrisome problem would be what kind of people are involved.
If parents start to see it as a haven for predators the damage could be
severe.  Security standards need to be much higher than in the other
projects.

Ec


list: wikimedia-l


body:
On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > We use otrs for this sort of thing.
>
> Who or what are "we"?

The Wikimedia Foundation, presumably.

Sam


from_name: Frando

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Wiki-to-XML

body:
Hello,
while testing the latest CVS version locally, I got 2 "only variables
can be passed by reference"-errors in lines 231 and 232 of wiki2xml.php
(im using php 5.0.5).

This is a well-known problem of scripts written for older php versions
and ran under php 5, the solution is quite simple:

lines 231 and 232 of the recent CVS version of wiki2xml.php:
$target = array_pop ( explode ( ">" , $target , 2 ) ) ;
$target = array_shift ( explode ( "<" , $target , 2 ) ) ;
and my modified version that runs under php 5:
$target = array_pop ( @explode ( ">" , $target , 2 ) ) ;
$target = array_shift ( @explode ( "<" , $target , 2 ) ) ;

apart from this the produced results seem to be quite good, I'll do some
further testing in the next days..

best regards,
Frando


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Blocked for nonexistent "3RR vio"

body:
> You disruptively attempted to close an AfD on an article that falls into
> your area of ... what's that word that isn't "obsession" but means the
> same thing?  You did so four times.  You then voted "speedy keep", with
> your first sentence being the same as your edit summary.

Have you looked at the article in question? I don't know about others,
but to me it's a blatantly obvious speedy keep. People obviously keep
the AfD discussion going only because it's "accepted practice" or
"policy" or whatever you call it this time. If anyone actually sat down
and thought about what we really want, it would be a speedy keep.


from_name: Jack Lynch

body:
This is exactly the sort of attitude that horrifies me. People who
speak like this should have no power whatsoever:

>The ArbComm has had the
> tool for some time now, and will continue to use it.  Writing to the
> mailing list won't help -- it's been too useful so far, and we're not
> going to give it up, even if you manage to build some sort of ground
> swell of emotion against it.  The Board won't help -- they've agreed to
> let us use the tool.  You might try Jimbo, but I doubt he'll overrule
> the ArbComm and the Board.

Thats a despicable attitude, particularly in response to concerns of
this gravity.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 11/13/05, Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> BJ?rn Lindqvist stated for the record:
>
> > IP Checking: Worst case: Someone who doesn't like you get your ip
> > checked, calls your ISP and talks with a clueless receptionist who
> > reveals your real life name. That person then publishes your name
> > somewhere. Your boss who happens to also be a Wikipedia user finds out
> > about it and fires you because s/he think your political stuff you've
> > written on Wikipedia suck. So some brat on WIkipedia cost you your
> > employment.
>
> How very theatrical.  Notice that it took three evil people to cost
> "you" "your" (ooo, my very own personalized strawman!) job:
>
> #1: the evil CheckUser user who went far beyond "yes, they match" or
> "no, they don't," (which, as you know, is all we ever do)
>
> #2: the evil (and amazingly knowledgeable) receptionist
>
> #3: the evil boss (are there no labor laws in your country?)
>
> Not one of these villains is at all hesitant about heinously violating
> the terms and laws governing their roles.
>
> That's a scary world you live in, Bj?rn.  That, of course, makes you a
> better person than me.  More wise and more sensitive.
>
> > You don't even need to be an ArbCom member to do that. Let's say a
> > veteran editor like Ed Poor asks for an ip check. Will an ArbCom
> > member oblige? Yes, because Ed Poor is trusted. So your only job is to
> > convince Ed Poor to ask for an ip check.
>
> You, of course, have indisputable evidence showing the willingness of
> each and every one of us to bend over any time Ed Poor gets an urge.
> There's no way that you could be just making this up out of your febrile
> imagination.
>
> > For more details:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_hacking With the checkuser tool it
> > becomes so much easier.
> >
> > If you have ever met a political refugee, you know that they often are
> > very careful not to talk politics with persons they don't know.
>
> Oh, very nice escalation there!  We now see that CheckUser is a tool of
> political oppression, if we're allowed to use it, people will be getting
> shot in the back of the head down in the basement of the Wikipedia
> server farm!
>
> > Especially not with strangers from their own home country. The reason
> > is that they fear secret agents from their home country. Often this
> > fear is unfounded paranoia (there aren't THAT many secret agents in
> > the world), sometimes it is not. Their worst case checkuser scenario
> > is even worse than the worst case scenario I described two paragraphs
> > above.
> >
> > That's why I hate the checkuser shit - (mis)uses of the tool can have
> > very detrimental real-life effects on real-life persons. Something
> > that nothing other on the silly text game Wikipedia can have.
>
> Well, Bj?rn, I have to recommend that you take this matter up with
> someone who can actually do something about it.  The ArbComm has had the
> tool for some time now, and will continue to use it.  Writing to the
> mailing list won't help -- it's been too useful so far, and we're not
> going to give it up, even if you manage to build some sort of ground
> swell of emotion against it.  The Board won't help -- they've agreed to
> let us use the tool.  You might try Jimbo, but I doubt he'll overrule
> the ArbComm and the Board.
>
> If you're serious about your concerns, you'll probably need to contact
> external authorities and tell them that the administrators of a Web site
> you like to use are recording your IP address for their internal
> monitoring and maintenance of the site.
>
> > --
> > mvh Bj?rn
>
> I'm done with this conversation.  Over to you for the last word....
>
> - --
>  Sean Barrett     | For days, we survived on
>  sean at epoptic.org | nothing but food and water.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFDd2A1MAt1wyd9d+URAgTJAJ9ZWmy8c4TkJgWjE48PxPWde3e4WACfT3Na
> in2hxv5t7NNBc+GohKtPHtk=
> =q6r7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject:
[Foundation-l] Incubator Wiki for New Wikimedia Projects (was
	Vote to create Wikiversity Vote)

body:
Anthony DiPierro wrote:

> I think we have very different views as to what a Wiki Incubator would
>
>be.  I don't really see the purpose as guaging interest, but more of
>answering questions and building a core community.  In that sense I
>think something like Wikiversity would be perfect for it - yes,
>there's no lack of interest, but there are a number of questions to
>the point where approximately 1/3 of Wikimedians don't even think it
>should be a project.
>
What I was mostly thinking of was Node's endless proposals for Wikis in
new languages.  Without help from an active controversy those projects
could more easily have a quicker death.

I don't oppose Wikiversity in principle; I just think that it needs a
lot more thinking.

>I also don't see why a wiki for game cards or for elementary schools
>or for (to use another example) dead people wouldn't make a good wiki.
> In fact, at some point or another I've proposed the latter two as
>projects.
>
As far as I'm concerned, whatever we have on these belongs in Wikipedia.
We only need bold and courageous action to deal with the deletion madness.

>Finally, whatever Wikicities wants to do is up to it.  We're talking
>about a small little site that pretty much no one has heard of.  I
>really don't think it matters what they're trying to do.  Wikimedia
>should make its policies for Wikimedia, and Wikicities can figure out
>how to deal with that.
>
Agreed.  I have yet to even visit Wikicities.  It just doesn't appeal to
me.  I already have plenty to do without looking for more work.

>Anyway, I can't edit on meta, and you seem to have a much different
>idea of an incubator wiki anyway.  Besides, the idea has been floating
>around for months already.  The cynic in me thinks that the red tape
>to create a project is probably too great, especially a project which
>threatens to "end up being a fork of" Angela's website.
>
I don't think I want to go there. ;-)
Ec


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Boycot

body:
With regards to the latest drivel Mark wrote I want to call on everyone
to boycott Mark. He is a pre-puberescant prick imho.

Waerth/Walter

Mark Williamson wrote:

>>If someone argues for something without _any_ knowledge about cultures
>>which are included in that "something", (s)he is a fool. If (s)he is a
>>young person, (s)he can learn something in the future and stop being a
>>fool. If (s)he is a mature fool, it is better that society isolate
>>such person to prevent any further damage.
>>
>>
>
>Alright, it seems quite clear that you're discussing me here without
>mentioning names.
>
>Again, you're assuming I don't have "_any_" knowledge of which
>cultures are included.
>
>As regards your "better that society isolate such person", that idea
>strikes me as very Naziistic -- isolate all of the people who are a
>harm to society as you judge them to be, even if it's something really
>trivial or silly.
>
>It's not as if people who do the things in questions are murderers, or
>rapists, or even mentally insane.
>
>
>
>>If someone argues for something only because of fun AND without any
>>knowledge about cultures which are included in that "something", (s)he
>>is NOT ONLY a fool, but a very dangerous person. If (s)he is a young
>>person, I hope that (s)he can learn something and that (s)he would not
>>be such person in the future. For such adult persons I think that the
>>less damage is to kill her/him than to wait to see mass graves because
>>of such "Innocent games".
>>
>>
>
>First of all, as I noted many times before, this discussion is _not_
>for fun. Your continued insistence to the contrary seems to me to be
>an attempt to mock the glorious people of Mt Zlatibor, making you an
>anti-Zlatiborian. For that, you will not be judged kindly when the day
>of judgement is upon us.
>
>It strikes me as anti-human to propose KILLING any adult who argues in
>a joking manner and without any knowledge about it... Really, that's
>just plain SADISTIC. Insane, really. If anybody needs their head
>checked, I'd say it's you -- talking an awful lot about killing people
>here where it's not really relevant to the topic at hand.
>
>
>
>>Neoliberal social POV is the biggest bullshit as I know. (And Mark is
>>highly influenced with that kind of bullshit.) It is trying to merge
>>cultures without any knowledge about these cultures. This is the clear
>>example of colonialist behaviour which is deep in the souls of
>>(almost) all Westerners.
>>
>>
>
>Nobody said anything about trying to merge _cultures_. There are not
>Wikipedias for _cultures_. Wikipedias are created for LANGUAGES.
>Languages and cultures are two very separate entities. Spanish is
>spoken by the majority of Mexicans as well as the majority of
>Spaniards, and yet their cultures are as different as night and day.
>Portuguese is shared between Portugal and Brasil, and yet they are
>very amazingly different. The differences reflected within the
>Francophonie, the Commonwealth, the CIS, and other such groups of
>places based on the languages they share are also extreme.
>
>Language can be either a tool to unite or divide. Now, it is
>linguistically impossible that 20 years ago, there was one language,
>and today, it is 3. The process is much, much, slower than that.
>Separate cultures, sure -- Bosnian and Croatian cultures are clearly
>very different. But separate languages -- definitely not, it's a
>ludicrous suggestion.
>
>
>
>>And this is not related only to Balkans... I saw the same conversation
>>about Low Saxon. Even it is reasonable to start to work on
>>computational translator between Dutch and German one, it is not
>>reasonable to force people to work together in this moment. The same
>>is for Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedias.
>>
>>
>
>What was it you said earlier about arguing about things we don't know
>about? If you don't want to be a hypocrite, perhaps you should recuse
>yourself as regards Low Saxon.
>
>
>
>>And someone is making an irony about our problems? And (s)he is far a
>>way of our problems?
>>
>>
>
>Let me guess -- their skulls should be bashed in? They should be
>killed? Or some other similarly sadistic and gruesome fate which is
>clearly undeserved for an offense so minor??
>
>Mark
>
>--
>"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: "How to get a girl"

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
> It did?  Good grief.  I'm going to delete it myself, then.
>
> It is a blatant violation of the charter of Wikibooks

Who decides that charter? Would you delete it even if the majority of
the Wikibooks community disagreed with you?

I don't understand the point in limiting the scope of Wikibooks this
artificially. As if anything that is a book but not a textbook is
somehow less useful.

Timwi


from_name: Sam Korn

subject: [WikiEN-l] Totally unscientific investigation...

body:
On 11/13/05, Kelly Martin <kelly.lynn.martin at gmail.com> wrote:
> And if not, well, we'll have the best encyclopedia of anime and
> computer games in the world.  There's something to be said for that.
> [[Exploding sheep]] is a fascinating article, for example.

And there's always the possibility that, as so many people want to
*write* these articles, just some may want to _read_ them.

Just a possibility, mind.

Sam


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

references:
<BAY18-F19417FAA63C4DF900C8D5A15B0@phx.gbl>
	<dl7tsi$v80$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<6faf39c90511131000g11cffd7av@mail.gmail.com>
	<dl8jgg$pq3$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Although Andalusian has no single unified orthography, most people
write it using normal Spanish spelling, with only a few points of
contention.

The main one is how to write the "h" sound corresponding to Castillian
"s"-- should it be "idiomah", or "idiom?"? "andaluh" or "andal?"? It
seems to have been solved quite nicely here by just writing "andal?h".

There are a handful of crazy people who invented a new orthography for
Andalus. You may ignore them entirely.

Mark

On 13/11/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Andre Engels wrote:
> > 2005/11/13, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>:
> >
> >>>I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
> >>>appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation
> >>>here.
> >>>
> >>>Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name
> >>>is Andal?h.
> >>
> >>Andalusian is a dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
> >>14th edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
> >>and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
> >>
> >>Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian is
> >>less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian
> >>is already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian
> >>Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the purposes of Wikimedia,
> >>Andalusian is effectively Spanish.
> >
> > When I read [[en:Andalusian Spanish]], I also see as an issue that
> > there is no single Andalusian dialect, but that there are a number of
> > dialects, which have large differences as well as a number of
> > similarities which set them apart from other Spanish languages and
> > dialects.
>
> That argument would similarly apply to Allemanian (als), Low Saxon
> (nds), Ripuarian (no Wikipedia yet), and perhaps also Scots (sco). Yet
> they appear to have developed a unified orthography for themselves. I
> haven't looked at them enough to figure out whether their spellings and
> grammars are actually internally consistent, although it seems at least
> Scots (sco) follows some sort of semi-official language authority.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


body:
> > mvh Bj?rn
> I'm done with this conversation.  Over to you for the last word....

Sigh. There is no reason to act like a jerkass. These fears and
concerns I've described are very real and existing. Whether they are
based in reality or not. It is disgraceful of you and all other
involved in this debacle not to acknowledge that.

--
mvh Bj?rn


from_name: geni

body:
On 11/13/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Kelly Martin <kelly.lynn.martin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > And if not, well, we'll have the best encyclopedia of anime and
> > computer games in the world.  There's something to be said for that.
> > [[Exploding sheep]] is a fascinating article, for example.
>
> And there's always the possibility that, as so many people want to
> *write* these articles, just some may want to _read_ them.
>
> Just a possibility, mind.
>
> Sam

however if they were a little older we might have a screenshot for the
older version os worms in our worms article.

--
geni


body:
Sam Korn wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>>Jimmy Wales wrote:
>>
>>>We use otrs for this sort of thing.
>>
>>Who or what are "we"?
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation, presumably.

So where does the Wikimedia Foundation have its installation of OTRS,
why don't I know about it, where are all the links to it, and why does
helpdesk-l still exist?

Timwi


from_name: Mark Bergsma

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: cluster monitoring

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

> Fedora Core 2 actually, should I ask Solar to upgrade it to FC3 so ? :o)

It's not Solar doing that, and it's already scheduled. Problem is, we
need to move stuff off it first.

>>In my experience, SNMP is nice and easy for things that the standard
>>net-snmpd supports, but it gets nasty beyond that, i.e. if you want to
>>add things yourself...
>
> In my experience, adding new measures in snmp is easy. You have to add
> the script that return data, then it generates the oid accordingly.
> Debian got some nice examples in the snmd.conf .

Yes, I have done so too, and I always found it a pain. The interface
isn't exactly good/flexible.

> Can we start installing snmpd on all servers to at least get some basic
> data ? :o)

That's exactly the same data ganglia is currently monitoring, so I don't
really see the point...

--
Mark

mark at nedworks.org


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
> I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
> appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation
> here.
>
> Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name
> is Andal?h.

Andalusian is a dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
14th edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.

Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian is
less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian
is already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian
Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the purposes of Wikimedia,
Andalusian is effectively Spanish.

Timwi


from_name: Manuel Miguel Aranda Ruiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New Language

body:
Hi,

I also would like to participate in a project to create a Wikipedia in
Andalusian. But I have never created a Wikipedia, so I also dont know how to
make it. Perhaps somebody knows it.

Ciao.

From:  "raul otjes"
<rautjes at hotmail.com>
Reply-To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
To:
wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject:  [Wikipedia-l] New
Language
Date:  Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:25:12
+0100
>Hello,
>
>I would like to create a new
wikipedia in my language, but it do not
>appear in the language-list,
so I think I have to ask for its
>creation
here.
>
>Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch,
its regional
>name is Andal?h.
>
>Thanks, and
by
>
>Ra?.
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN
Amor: busca tu ? naranja
http://latam.msn.com/amor/
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l
mailing
list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/


from_name: Adam Johnston

subject: [WikiEN-l] why blocked?

body:
my IP address (66.241.130.66) has been blocked from editing. it is however a
college network and so should not be blocked just because of one person's
vandalism when there are many more people wishing to use it.

The reason given is:
Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by
"Vfdgfdsgfsdg". The reason given for Vfdgfdsgfsdg's block is: "please
contact an administrator for verification purposes, as described on this
page".

I have no clue who this "Vfdgfdsgfsdg" is. and "as described on this page"
does not really help as it is not described at all and there is no link
following, and I cannot post on an admins talk page because I cannot edit
pages, and having no user account I cannot email them my problem.

I tried to create my own username so that perhaps I, a legitimate user could
edit incorrect pages, but it will not allow me because of the above.

_________________________________________________________________
Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft?
SmartScreen Technology.
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
  Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the
first two months FREE*.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: "How to get a girl"

body:
Ilya N. wrote:
> I don't have much experience on WikiBooks, but wasn't this what Wikibooks
> was founded for?

I don't agree that the original planned purpose of Wikibooks must
necessarily limit its scope forever. Besides, the very name "Wikibooks"
is far too suggestive to stop people in the long-run from using it for
the creation of books-that-aren't-textbooks (non-text books?).

Besides, what is a textbook, anyway? If the "guidelines for people on
the autistic spectrum" book is not allowed, why is the "Lucid Dreaming"
book allowed? What does 'allowed' mean, anyway, given that it survived a
community discussion on deletion?

> Besides, how would you cite anything for something like the books
> mentioned?

There are plenty of potential citations available for books on autism.
As for the "how to get a girl", there's always psychological studies you
can cite -- but then again, do you even need cites for such a book?

Timwi


body:
Delphine M?nard wrote:
> On 11/13/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>Jimmy Wales wrote:
>>>
>>>>We use otrs for this sort of thing.
>>>
>>>Who or what are "we"?
>>
>>The Wikimedia Foundation, presumably.
>
> More here:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR_department

Thanks, found the link to the OTRS -- but it asked me for a
username/password, didn't accept my normal Wikipedia log-in, and didn't
provide a mean to create a new account. How are users supposed to ask a
question on this?

Timwi


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

body:
Chris Luer made an excellent point. I would go with whatever article
was created first in Wikipedia though unless there's massive amounts
of links pointing to the other article (prior to this discussion) we
might consider changing that. Redirects should help pointing people in
the right direction, naming conventions are to make sure links point
to the right page. If the majority of articles here point to "Ivory
Coast" we should call it that to avoid needless redirects and
viceversa.

--Mgm

On 11/13/05, Mark Gallagher <m.g.gallagher at student.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>
> G'day geni,
>
> > On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Better rename all the articles on French towns, people and business in
> >>France then, too.
> >
> > Execept that with the exception of a few big ones they don't really
> > have common english names.
>
> No worries.  Anyone here good with Francais?  Let's take a few French
> names that can be translated to English and insist on using them.  We
> needn't restrict it to towns, either: you know that "Jean" bloke at work
> who your secretary keeps daydreaming about?  From now on, call him
> "John" and see how he reacts.
>
> How about the reverse?  I noticed, the other day, that a town in the USA
> (sorry, "the world") bears the ridiculous name of "Sugar Land, Texas".
> I see no reason why fr-WP shouldn't call it "Terre De Sucre".  It is,
> after all, the *French* Wikipedia, and Texans should not be allowed to
> dictate to them anymore than Ivorians can dictate to us.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Mark Gallagher
> "What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
> - Danger Mouse
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/2005
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Autymn D.C.

body:
On 13 Nov 2005, at 07.10, BJ?rn Lindqvist wrote:
> Hi Anthere
>
>> Checks should be done only on accounts doing abusive edits to
>> Wikipedia
>> (vandalism, insults, spam, defaming etc...)
>> If checks are done without any relevant reasons related to abuse, then
>> those checks are abusive and the person with the checkuser access
>> should
>> (will) lose it.
>
> Just like admins wrongfully blocking accounts are also supposed to
> have their admin status revoked? Please realize that the two actions
> have very different worst cases.
>
> Blocking: Worst case: You do not get to write in Wikipedia for a while.

/No/, you did not heed my email about my situation.  The worst case is
that one person is blocked who is the only person that can spot and fix
mistakes in articles that are getting more exposure, and that can
dispel wrong and harmful comments in the talk pages.  The longer the
absence, the more that readers will think that the last word is true,
when the qualified party is kept from having it.  The wrongful policers
must be punished for disrupting communications.

-Aut


body:
On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Thanks, found the link to the OTRS -- but it asked me for a
> username/password, didn't accept my normal Wikipedia log-in, and didn't
> provide a mean to create a new account. How are users supposed to ask a
> question on this?

info-en at wikimedia.org per [[Wikipedia:Contact us]]

Sam


body:
On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> So where does the Wikimedia Foundation have its installation of OTRS,
> why don't I know about it, where are all the links to it, and why does
> helpdesk-l still exist?

Helpdesk-l was created to be a sort of open version.  In my opinion,
it failed.  For the other questions, see other emails.

Sam


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages

Sam

On 11/13/05, raul otjes <rautjes at hotmail.com> wrote:
> hello,
>
> I am from Andalusia, and I do not think like that, there are a lot of people
> in Andalusia that not think like that, and not just in Andalusia. Andalusian
> is for me and not just for me an other language. There are a lot of pages in
> Internet where it will be discussed about the grammar and orthography of
> andalusian.
>
> Anyway, I did not wanted to discuss about this. I just wanted to know how to
> get start a wikipedia in Andalusian, I think it has to be requested, and
> then it wil be discussed if it is really necessary to create it.
>
> Otherway, there are a lot of languages that are oficcially dialects from
> another languages, and they have a wiki (asturianu, aragones, sicilianu,
> murciano, alemmanisch, plattd??tsch, etc...) I sure Andalusian is the most
> spoken language between those.
>
> And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as
> andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.
>
> Well, I wanted to ask how can I get started its creation, it will be
> discussed if a wiki in andalusian is necessary, but first of all it has to
> be started, and that is the reason why i write here, to get help.
>
>
> thanks.
>
>
> >From: Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>
> >Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
> >Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language
> >Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:41:35 +0000
> >
> >
> >>I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
> >>appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation
> >>here.
> >>
> >>Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name is
> >>Andal?h.
> >
> >Andalusian is a dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's 14th
> >edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it and
> >demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
> >
> >Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian is
> >less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian is
> >already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian Wikipedia at
> >ast), it would seem that for the purposes of Wikimedia, Andalusian is
> >effectively Spanish.
> >
> >Timwi
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: raul otjes

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New Language

body:
Hello,

I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not appear
in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation here.

Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name is
Andal?h.

Thanks, and by

Ra?.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/


from_name: Fastfission

subject: [WikiEN-l] Category:Soviet spies

body:
On 11/12/05, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> I'm kind of uncomfortable with this for the same reason, and it applies
> more generally.  In particular, [[Category:Statutory rapists]] sounds
> more accusatory than [[Category:People convicted of statutory rape]],
> which, to my ears at least, sounds more neutral and matter-of-fact.  Of
> course in non-controversial situations the plain term is fine
> ([[Category:Physicists]]), but in potentially controversial categories
> I'd prefer we word things a bit more carefully.
>
> Consider, for example, this case:
> -- [[Category:Traitors]]
> -- [[Category:People convicted of treason]]
>
> I think in almost all cases the 2nd is preferable.
>

I agree completely on this. If I were to speculate wildly, my guess is
one of the reasons it sounds more neutral is that describing of people
completely by crime committed merges the identity of the person and
the crime (they become one and the same). In cases where there is
considerable doubt or a lack of legal standing behind the accusation
that a person committed the crime, we should opt for the least
problematic category name.

FF


subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbiter recusal

body:
Ok, so lets be clear, you see no reason to suspect this arbiter will
be anything other than perfectly neutral in this case?

I did, hence all this discussion, but I'm not the one who appoints
arbiters or makes rules (or shells out nearly a million bucks in
donations ;), and if you see no problem w the situation, I will stop
complaining about it.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 11/13/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Jack Lynch wrote:
> > I certainly agree, it is statements made by the arbiter, not by the
> > defendant, which concern me.
> >
> > "That is not an RfC, it's a rant by a known troublemaker. I see no
> > reason to participate in such a clearly broken process."
> > (regarding an RfC initiated by Silverback)
> > \
> > Let's check the outrage at the door and discuss this reasonably, ok?
> > Hyperbolic screaming does not benefit your cause. Kelly Martin (talk)
> > 12:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
> >
> > etc...
> >
> > Jack (Sam Spade)
>
> I haven't seen the 'etc' but I would not consider the above remark to be
> even remotely close to the sort of thing that would cause me to urge an
> arbiter to recuse from a case.  It was _not_ an RfC, it _was_ a rant by
> a known troublemaker.  Checking outrage at the door and avoiding
> hyberbolic screaming _are_ good ideas.
>
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
--- Robert Scott Horning <robert_horning at netzero.net> wrote:
>  Wikijunior, IMHO, was "forced" upon Wikibooks, and with the plan to
> turn Wikijunior more into a kids version of Wikipedia, the connection
> with Wikibooks is far less than what it could have been in the past.

Wikijunior was no more forced on Wikibooks than any other book on Wikibooks is
forced onto that community.

-- mav

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com


body:
My concern is that the ArbCom is kind of in flux, w no clear future.
We have no way of knowing who will be appointed, or how. We can be
pretty sure that Jimbo, one of the wikipedians least involved in
editing, will be personally selection some arbiters at some times, as
he has done recently.

The concerns regarding his recent appointees may or may not be valid,
but I think this was_not_the_time to be giving out such powers w/o
community approval. We can trust developers w these abilities, because
we have to. We don't have to trust all arbiters, all the time,
forever, w these sort of real world powers.

Jack (Sam Spade)

On 11/13/05, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> His concerns certainly hit home with me. So I'm listening to him and
> taking seriously the kind of damage that can occur.
>
> Fred


body:
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> As long as Wikijunior was only for producing age-appropriate textbooks
> for children it was probably fine in Wikibooks.  Something, however,
> which specifically seeks the participation of children is something
> else.  I think that the participation level may be easy to attain.  A
> far more worrisome problem would be what kind of people are involved.
> If parents start to see it as a haven for predators the damage could be
> severe.  Security standards need to be much higher than in the other
> projects.

I don't foresee kids going to Wikibooks to view Wikijunior books. I do see them
going to a static pre-approved snapshot of Wikijunior books at wikijunior.org.

In a similar fashion, static pre-approved snapshots of regular textbooks from
Wikibooks that are part of Wikiversity courses could be hosted at
wikiversity.org.

-- mav

__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com


from_name: Delphine Ménard

body:
On 11/13/05, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > > We use otrs for this sort of thing.
> >
> > Who or what are "we"?
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation, presumably.

More here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR_department

Cheers,

Delphine
--
~notafish


from_name: Andre Engels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
2005/11/13, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>:
>
> > I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
> > appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation
> > here.
> >
> > Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name
> > is Andal?h.
>
> Andalusian is a dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's
> 14th edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it
> and demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
>
> Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian is
> less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian
> is already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian
> Wikipedia at ast), it would seem that for the purposes of Wikimedia,
> Andalusian is effectively Spanish.

When I read [[en:Andalusian Spanish]], I also see as an issue that
there is no single Andalusian dialect, but that there are a number of
dialects, which have large differences as well as a number of
similarities which set them apart from other Spanish languages and
dialects.

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Gollum, a Wikipediabrowser

body:
Bugs: If I choose English interface language, it still gives the
German interface.
Suggestions: Would it be possible to use this for improved
interlanguage browsing? It now seems to be geared to watching a single
language Wikipedia, what I would much like is an option to browse
cross-language easier.

Andre Engels

2005/11/12, Harald Hanek <gollumlist at yahoo.de>:
> Hello,
> i tinkered a small Tool named Gollum, with which one can browse fast and
> eyefriendly by Wikipedia.
>
> Gollum is currently in the beta phase, therefore i look at this way for
> Users to test Gollum and send me your experiences, error messages and also
> suggestions communicate.
>
> http://gollum.easycp.de/
>
> Have much fun with Gollum and thank you.
>
> Greetings from Germany
>
> Harald
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels


body:
On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:

> > More here:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR_department
>
> Thanks, found the link to the OTRS -- but it asked me for a
> username/password, didn't accept my normal Wikipedia log-in, and didn't
> provide a mean to create a new account. How are users supposed to ask a
> question on this?

A question on what? On the OTRS self, or about Wikipedia/media? The
meta page lists all the contacts.

All of the "departments" listed there are
<insert-prefix-listed-on-meta-page-here>@wikimedia.org or
wikipedia.org addresses, advertised on various wikis and places and
end up on the OTRS.

If you are ready to help and want an account there, ask the people in
charge of the queue you can help with (ie. probably info-en in your
case).

Enquiries ending up in the OTRS vary from "we'd like to give you a
million servers" to "Have you noticed your site is editable?". In
between, the usual copyvios and libel claims...

Note that to have an account on OTRS, you must be ready to use "a"
real name and not disclose sensible information that may go through
the wrong queue.

Cheers,

Delphine
--
~notafish


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language

body:
hello,

I am from Andalusia, and I do not think like that, there are a lot of people
in Andalusia that not think like that, and not just in Andalusia. Andalusian
is for me and not just for me an other language. There are a lot of pages in
Internet where it will be discussed about the grammar and orthography of
andalusian.

Anyway, I did not wanted to discuss about this. I just wanted to know how to
get start a wikipedia in Andalusian, I think it has to be requested, and
then it wil be discussed if it is really necessary to create it.

Otherway, there are a lot of languages that are oficcially dialects from
another languages, and they have a wiki (asturianu, aragones, sicilianu,
murciano, alemmanisch, plattd??tsch, etc...) I sure Andalusian is the most
spoken language between those.

And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as
andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.

Well, I wanted to ask how can I get started its creation, it will be
discussed if a wiki in andalusian is necessary, but first of all it has to
be started, and that is the reason why i write here, to get help.

thanks.

>From: Timwi <timwi at gmx.net>
>Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l at wikipedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language
>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:41:35 +0000
>
>
>>I would like to create a new wikipedia in my language, but it do not
>>appear in the language-list, so I think I have to ask for its creation
>>here.
>>
>>Andalusian is the name of that language in Englisch, its regional name is
>>Andal?h.
>
>Andalusian is a dialect of Spanish. As far as I can see, Ethnologue's 14th
>edition had an entry on it, while the 15th edition has removed it and
>demoted it to the status of Spanish dialect.
>
>Ethnologue also states (in the entry about Asturian) that Andalusian is
>less different from Spanish than Asturian; keeping in mind that Asturian is
>already quite close (although we do have a separate Asturian Wikipedia at
>ast), it would seem that for the purposes of Wikimedia, Andalusian is
>effectively Spanish.
>
>Timwi
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/