body:
...plus I reckon we should think about making it more bleedin obvious
that everyone can edit any article. I know, I know. Anyone who'd
actually ''read'' the welcome blurb on the WP home page should not be
able to miss that bit. Yet most people ''are'' currently missing that
bit -- because ''it just isn't what people expect''. Then they end up
finding out about that little "secret" much, much further down the line
-- and IMHO that's precisely why some people have so strong reactions
about our unlimited editability:
It's like "OMG -- I never knew", followed by, "I feel cheated/stupid
not to have realized", followed by: "This can't be right."
If we were able to figure out a way to make it yet more obvious -- MUCH
more obvious -- that anyone can edit, then we might be able to avoid
people getting that "unlimited editability shock".

Flip thought: Maybe though, that obscurity helps protect our content as
well. Because it requiring actual brain activity to figure out that you
can post might also keep alotta morons and trolls at bay.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

On 22 Sep 2004, at 01:39, Jens Ropers wrote:

> Maybe we should just send these guys this link [
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?
> title=National_Academy_for_Gifted_and_Talented_Youth&action=edit ] and
> tell them to work away.
>
> Wouldn't that be a near-perfect solution?
> What do people think?
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com
>
> On 21 Sep 2004, at 21:20, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ----- Forwarded message from Barry Meatyard
>> <Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk> -----
>>
>> From: "Barry Meatyard" <Barry.Meatyard at warwick.ac.uk>
>> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:04:35 +0100
>> To: <jwales at bomis.com>
>> Subject: Entry in Wikipedia
>>
>> Dear Mr Wales,
>>
>> Our attention has recently been drawn to an entry for the National
>> Academy on 'Wikipedia'.
>>
>> The National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth is an English
>> government agency and part of the national education system.
>>
>> We are aware that the entry was initiated by a 16 year old Academy
>> student with a less than complete knowledge of the Academy's remit.
>> Subsequently a number of edits have been made by even younger
>> students and we accept that some of these are getting the entry
>> closer to reality. However we would be interested to know the level
>> of editorial control beyond these edits. For example who removed the
>> adverse comment (merely a student's perception) dated 30 Aug? Is this
>> done by Wikipedia staff - and if so how are 1 million plus articles
>> policed?
>>
>> We would be happy to rewrite the entry to enable it to reflect more
>> accurately the remit and contractual obligations of the Academy,
>> which of course would be entirely factual as befits an objective
>> encyclopedia. However we need to be reassured that such objectivity
>> is not compromised by the facility for those who may have a skewed
>> perspective to air it in public.
>>
>> Whilst for some entries it may be interesting to see the evolution of
>> an entry, (as a professional botanist I was fascinated by the
>> development of some of the plant focused entries), the fact that
>> potentially damaging and inaccurate comments remain in the 'history'
>> thread is of concern to us as a publicly funded body. You will
>> appreciate that we are not convinced that a collegiate approach to
>> evolving a definition for a government agency of which there may be a
>> variety of subjective impressions is appropriate.
>>
>> At this stage we are seeking reassurance with respect to the
>> editorial policy of the site and to request whether inaccurate and
>> potentially damaging entries can be removed from the history.
>>
>> I look forward to hearing from you.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>> Dr. Barry Meatyard
>> Director of Student Services
>> National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth
>> University of Warwick
>> Coventry
>> CV4 7AL
>> UK
>> Tel: 44 (0) 24 76 574483
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- End forwarded message -----
>>
>> --
>> "La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on
>> fr.wikipedia.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [WikiEN-l] History of "stub" concept?

body:
On 22 Sep 2004, at 01:44, Matt Brown wrote:

> People tend to use the term 'substub' for 'little better than a blank
> article', but there is no universally agreed on template for that.
>
> -Matt

Actually, there ''is'' a template:

{{substub}}

However:
There is ''quite a lot'' of dispute on what the template should say /
whether it should exist / whether/when it should be used, etc. etc.
So unless and until there is agreement on this issue, it's probably
best ''not'' to use it. -- Use of the {{substub}} template currently is
an open invitation for controversy.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionenth article

body:
sj wrote:
> It should however be possible to identify the *hour* in which the
> millionth article was created, no?

Sure, with a few hours of programming that should be possible.
Until the board puts a bounty on it, I'll pass my turn (just kidding of
course, not even then).

Someone will come up with a clever estimate by interpolating monthly figures
(figures for the current month need to be calibrated, because dumps for each
language have been taken at a different time of day)

By the way: it reminds me of candid camera where a woman in the supermarket
asked the man before her, who had a full basket, if she could jump the queue
because she had to pay only for one roll of peppermint. Of course the
request was granted. As soon as she had put down the money, she was stormed
by a photographer and the manager who offered her a large cheque and a
holiday for two because she was the millionth customer. IMO one of their
better pranks :)

Erik Zachte


list: foundation-l

from_name: Sj

subject: [Foundation-l] favicons

body:
That's really cool.  I would love to see different favicons, too... also for the
foundationwiki and wiktionary.

---SJ

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:42 -0700, Joshua Swink <yathster at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs,
> and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons
> are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was
> in a tab quickly.
>
> I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote,
> and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They
> are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/.

--
+sj+


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] favicons


list: wikipedia-l

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
I've just reverted over 200 edits on the toki pona Wikipedia. Someone
apparently feels the language is copyrighted so decided to replace
every page, including user pages and the main page, with a copyright
violation notice, presumably with the use of a bot. I've reverted
these, although unfortunately the "bot rollback" failed on later pages
so recent changes is a mess. I haven't deleted anything, so if people
want to see the pages, such as "copyviopedia" this person created they
can still do so.

As far as I am aware Sonja Kisa, the creator of the language, has
released it under the GFDL, but I can't find any mailing list evidence
to back this up.

If this is not the case, the wiki should obviously be removed but
vandalizing hundreds of pages is not the way to go about this. I
suggest we wait to hear from Sonja on the status of the copyright and
remove it she can not confirm it is GFDL.

Angela.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Millionenth article

body:
On second thought, it might take less than an hour if we disregard
deletions.
I'll look at it tomorrow or the day after.

Erik Zachte


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>As I said before, while the law may be debated I added the notices
>because of a suspected copyvio. IANAL...
>
>
I am not a great supporter of Toki Pona, but acting on mere suspicion
like that is no way to operate, such actions are more characteristic of
copyright paranoia..  There are enough people in Wikipedia who oppose
Toki Pona, and it has been here long enough that you would think that
the copyright argument would have been raised before.  There is no need
to act hurriedly on a mere suspicion.  If a copyright owner feels that
his rights are violated he can request that it can be taken down, and
there will be ample opportunity to act on that request.  There is a
legal requirement to act on clear violations when they become known.
Beyond that, one of the requirements for take down notices is that the
person making the request have some kind of standing for making that
request.  This is a protection from being flooded by requests from
do-gooders who have no knowledge of the facts and don't know what they
are doing.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
Angela_ wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:59:17 -0400, James R. Johnson wrote:
>
>
>>Isn't Klingon copyrighted?
>>
>>
>If a language can be copyrighted, then it is, but I don't know what
>the implications of that are since I wrote to Paramount about this at
>the start of June and got no reply.
>
>
I would be surprised if you did.  The question must certainly not be new
to them.  Any enterring into correspondence by them would only
complicate their position since that could commit them to something that
is contrary to their interests.  When such companies feel that their
copyright is threatened they prefer to let the matter be handled by
their lawyers. If they do not feel threatened they do nothing.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>As I said before, I was not aware of this.
>
>My statement that I did what I did in good faith still stands (though
>obviously I will not do it ever again, in fact chances are I'll never
>post a copyvio notice anywhere again).
>
>
There's a difference between blanking an article, and merely putting a
notice.

Ec


from_name: Henry H. Tan-Tenn

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Bengali (was Re: Starting a new wiki)

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

> It's surprising that Bengali Wikipedia didn't start yet. There are probably
> more than 200 millions people speaking Bengali, although I don't how many
> among these have Bengali as their monther tongue (190M according to
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language, 207M according to other
> sources). And Bengali people have also a strong reputation for cultural
> awareness, and the Bengali language has a long tradition of poetry and
> literature.

Apparently Windows just got around to supporting Unicode Bengali with
their SP2 release this year (see
http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/bengali.html).  So I'd _guess_ the
Internet-using elite is still largely using a legacy encoding (assuming
Windows dominance in Bengali computing).  I've certainly run into Indic
sites that render text with graphics files (as is still occasionally
done with Chinese characters).

Actually Minnan has the same issue:  transitioning from legacy encoding
to Unicode.  Community growth is to an extend limited by the will to
switch, i.e. how desperately people need Wikipedia ;)

> Each of Assamese, Burmese, Gujarati, Kannada, Khmer, Nepalese, Oriya, Panjabi,
> Pashtu, Sindhi, and Telugu have more than 10 millions speakers. However most
> of these speakers have a poor Internet connectivity at the best. So it just a
> matter of time when Internet connections become easily available in these
> parts of the world.

So it would seem that connectivity is necessary but insufficient for
accessing less-well supported/unsupported Unicode standards.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:59:17 -0400, James R. Johnson wrote:
> Isn't Klingon copyrighted?

If a language can be copyrighted, then it is, but I don't know what
the implications of that are since I wrote to Paramount about this at
the start of June and got no reply.

Angela.


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Millionenth article

body:
?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:
> Would it be possible to know which article was number one million?

I have found there is NO millionenth article.

Counter was at 999 999 and then two articles get created in the same
second raising it to 1000001.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Henry H. Tan-Tenn a ?crit:
>
>> I have little idea how banning works but I'd personally prefer Node
>> commit to making or fixing a non-infinite number of logos rather than
>> be temporarily banned for impulsively adding copyvio notices en masse.
>
>
> I agree.
>
> When my kids do mistakes, I usually first scream (very loud). Then I
> ask them to fix their mess. And when I am full of energy, I give them
> TIG (Travaux d'Int?r?t G?r?raux in French, which means "task
> beneficial to the whole community").

Here in Canada the term "community service" is used as an alternative to
jail time for minor offences.

Ec


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
I clearly support a TEMPORARY ban.

Rationale:
This is a significant breach of rules of good conduct.
Even if we're not a higher moral authority or in any way "teachers"
over the next guy (and really, we're not), a ban will be better for
Node, because it will give him the opportunity to return to this
community afterwards in a way that makes it easy for everyone to accept
that he has "served his time" and can then be welcomed back without
anyone continuing to hold a grudge. No penalty at all would lead to a
situation where people would continue to hold a grudge, and maybe not
entirely without some justification.

I have left a note about this to Sonjaaa, who is also a WP contributor
on the English Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sonjaaa#Toki_Pona_vandalism

I would imagine that she should be able to clarify the copyright
situation.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com

On 22 Sep 2004, at 05:05, Tim Starling wrote:

> Angela_ wrote:
>> I've just reverted over 200 edits on the toki pona Wikipedia. Someone
>> apparently feels the language is copyrighted so decided to replace
>> every page, including user pages and the main page, with a copyright
>> violation notice, presumably with the use of a bot. I've reverted
>> these, although unfortunately the "bot rollback" failed on later pages
>> so recent changes is a mess. I haven't deleted anything, so if people
>> want to see the pages, such as "copyviopedia" this person created they
>> can still do so.
>
> Edits were performed anonymously with the IP address 24.251.242.236 .
> The corresponding hostname is ip24-251-242-236.ph.ph.cox.net.
>
> On the English Wikipedia:
>
> mysql> select distinct rc_user_text from recentchanges where
> rc_ip='24.251.242.236';
> +--------------+
> | rc_user_text |
> +--------------+
> | Node ue      |
> +--------------+
>
> I suggest a temporary ban from all projects effective immediately.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
I've just spoken to Sonja about this. Please see below for the end of
an email she sent me this morning regarding the copyright status of
the language.

Angela.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sonja Elen Kisa <marraskuu1978 at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:45:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: toki pona Wikipedia
To: angela at wikimedia.org

[...]

Anyway, the Toki Pona language is obviously released
under the GFDL.

Sincerely,

Sonja


subject: [WikiEN-l] Node and Toki Pona

body:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:11:47 -0700, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
> For the edification of the rest of us, what is this regarding?

Basically, an anon IP replaced practically every page on the toki pona
Wikipedia with a copyright violation template because he didn't
believe the language itself was GFDL. I reverted this because I
thought it was GFDL. Tim announced the vandal was node-ue and proposed
a project-wide ban, Raul654 banned node-ue on en and meta, Danny
convinced Raul654 to unblock him, and Sonja, the creator of the
language, said toki pona "is obviously released under the GFDL". See
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2004-September/017331.html
and other emails in that thread.

Angela.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
On 22 Sep 2004, at 06:01, Jens Ropers wrote:

> I have left a note about this to Sonjaaa, who is also a WP contributor
> on the English Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sonjaaa#Toki_Pona_vandalism

Sonjaaa has replied at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ropers#Toki_Pona_vandalism


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bengali (was Re: Starting a new wiki)

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

> Yes, localization of computers is one of the necessary steps before people
> could contribute.
>
> Literacy is another one. As an example, in Gujarat, about 30 % of the
> population is illetrate, but that figure is a poor indication of the capacity
> to contribute to an encyclopedia.

It'd be interesting if committed Wikipedians could experiment with a
program where they partner with non-literate speakers to jointly create
articles.  The latter would narrate articles on whatever missing topic
there is, while the former would transcribe it into text (possibly
posted with the narrator's account or a special joint-account).

I imagine this could potentially fill in a large gap on ethno-culturally
significant topics that are nevertheless rarely described in text,
though they need not be limited to such.  The role of NPOV would need to
be considered.  For Wikipedia, the narratives would need to strive to be
encyclopedia-like (to minimize re-writing later on).  Simple re-telling
of myths, folktales and such might go to Wikisource (I imagine).

The non-literate speaker here could also be one who is visually
incapacited and for whose language no computer interface is currently
available for reading and/or writing.  (For example, I know of someone
who's able to participate in the Net just like anyone else, but only in
Mandarin Chinese.  Though a fluent speaker, he lacks a PC interface for
converting the Minnan Wikipedia to Taiwanese Braille.)

The non-literate speaker could also well be somone who simply can't get
on the Net (or don't have a computer or can't type or another
non-linguistic reason).

I imagine oral traditions are also, arguably, wiki processes.

> I have a friend who is graduated from the Indian Institute of Management, a
> school with a worldwide reputation (teachers come from Havard, etc.), but
> can't read or write Gujarati, her mother tongue.
>
> Today in India, it is fashionable to send children to English medium schools,
> which are usually more expensive and of higher quality than local languages
> schools. So educated people are perfectly fluent in English, but illetrate in
> their mother tongue.

This happens a lot, worldwide.  If it's not English, then it's another
LWC (language of wider communications).


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

> ...For example, just in the past couple of days I have made
> logos for over a dozen Wikipedias, and posted them on Meta. I am also
> (at least I think) partially responsible for the founding of fo: and
> lb: (I informed people of the possibility of creating them).

I have little idea how banning works but I'd personally prefer Node
commit to making or fixing a non-infinite number of logos rather than be
temporarily banned for impulsively adding copyvio notices en masse.


from_name: Anthere

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Node and Toki Pona

body:
Phil Sandifer a ?crit:
> My two cents -
>
> What node did was stupid and immature, and he should have known that
> blanking an entire encyclopedia was not the way to offer his concerns.
> He should have posted to the list, on meta, or somewhere else that he
> thought the entire encyclopedia might be copyvio. It could have been
> discussed, and bot rollbacks wouldn't have been necessary.
>
> As node has, to say the least, been a source of difficulty and
> disruption in the past, I can see why there's a significant movement to
> throw the book at him.
>
> My feeling is that a project-wide ban is a very, very big step, though,
> and should be reserved. I think node is pretty clearly on warning here,
> and that further displays of such immaturity will pretty much not be
> tolerated by anyone.
>
> -Snowspinner

I strongly agree with snowspinner on this.

Node certainly needs a strong warning (which should include a temporary
block of course), he needs to discuss with people on this, but that does
not justify imho, a ban on all projects.

I think blocking someone on all projects requires either
* approval from all projects (or at least most... )
* or an offense much bigger than this one.

This does not mean I do not consider what he did was not bad, but that
such a project-wide decision does not scale the fault.
A project wide banning should only be made for an offense damaging the
whole project. This was not the case.

anthere

> On Sep 22, 2004, at 12:28 AM, Angela_ wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:11:47 -0700, Matt Brown
>> <morven at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> For the edification of the rest of us, what is this regarding?
>>
>>
>> Basically, an anon IP replaced practically every page on the toki pona
>> Wikipedia with a copyright violation template because he didn't
>> believe the language itself was GFDL. I reverted this because I
>> thought it was GFDL. Tim announced the vandal was node-ue and proposed
>> a project-wide ban, Raul654 banned node-ue on en and meta, Danny
>> convinced Raul654 to unblock him, and Sonja, the creator of the
>> language, said toki pona "is obviously released under the GFDL". See
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2004-September/
>> 017331.html
>> and other emails in that thread.
>>
>> Angela.
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Node and Toki Pona

body:
just an idea...

What about a global "arbitration committee" to manage such issues as a
global ban ???

ant

Anthere a ?crit:
>
>
> Phil Sandifer a ?crit:
>
>> My two cents -
>>
>> What node did was stupid and immature, and he should have known that
>> blanking an entire encyclopedia was not the way to offer his
>> concerns.  He should have posted to the list, on meta, or somewhere
>> else that he  thought the entire encyclopedia might be copyvio. It
>> could have been  discussed, and bot rollbacks wouldn't have been
>> necessary.
>>
>> As node has, to say the least, been a source of difficulty and
>> disruption in the past, I can see why there's a significant movement
>> to  throw the book at him.
>>
>> My feeling is that a project-wide ban is a very, very big step,
>> though,  and should be reserved. I think node is pretty clearly on
>> warning here,  and that further displays of such immaturity will
>> pretty much not be  tolerated by anyone.
>>
>> -Snowspinner
>
>
>
> I strongly agree with snowspinner on this.
>
> Node certainly needs a strong warning (which should include a temporary
> block of course), he needs to discuss with people on this, but that does
> not justify imho, a ban on all projects.
>
> I think blocking someone on all projects requires either
> * approval from all projects (or at least most... )
> * or an offense much bigger than this one.
>
> This does not mean I do not consider what he did was not bad, but that
> such a project-wide decision does not scale the fault.
> A project wide banning should only be made for an offense damaging the
> whole project. This was not the case.
>
>
> anthere
>
>
>> On Sep 22, 2004, at 12:28 AM, Angela_ wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:11:47 -0700, Matt Brown
>>> <morven at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> For the edification of the rest of us, what is this regarding?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Basically, an anon IP replaced practically every page on the toki pona
>>> Wikipedia with a copyright violation template because he didn't
>>> believe the language itself was GFDL. I reverted this because I
>>> thought it was GFDL. Tim announced the vandal was node-ue and proposed
>>> a project-wide ban, Raul654 banned node-ue on en and meta, Danny
>>> convinced Raul654 to unblock him, and Sonja, the creator of the
>>> language, said toki pona "is obviously released under the GFDL". See
>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2004-September/
>>> 017331.html
>>> and other emails in that thread.
>>>
>>> Angela.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>>


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
No, this is not the place for a flamefest.

What was the half-researched junk I said about Sicilian? The
Ethnologue agrees with me as to the number of speakers.

Also, perhaps it didn't occur to you that "decent editor" refers to
contributions to the community, and not just posts on the ML?

Also, since you get e-mails from the list in digest format, I would
ask that in the future, you please trim them in your replies.

--node


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
What? Who says I blanked any articles?

Replaced the full text of articles with copyvio notices, yes, but
that's what you're supposed to do for such notices, no?

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 05:08:51 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> >As I said before, I was not aware of this.
> >
> >My statement that I did what I did in good faith still stands (though
> >obviously I will not do it ever again, in fact chances are I'll never
> >post a copyvio notice anywhere again).
> >
> >
> There's a difference between blanking an article, and merely putting a
> notice.
>
> Ec
>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
I find all this talk of community service a bit laughable.

Does anybody have any reason to believe I wouldn't continue making
such contributions to the community? I have nothing else to do with my
time.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 05:31:29 -0700, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
> > Henry H. Tan-Tenn a ?crit:
> >
> >> I have little idea how banning works but I'd personally prefer Node
> >> commit to making or fixing a non-infinite number of logos rather than
> >> be temporarily banned for impulsively adding copyvio notices en masse.
> >
> >
> > I agree.
> >
> > When my kids do mistakes, I usually first scream (very loud). Then I
> > ask them to fix their mess. And when I am full of energy, I give them
> > TIG (Travaux d'Int?r?t G?r?raux in French, which means "task
> > beneficial to the whole community").
>
> Here in Canada the term "community service" is used as an alternative to
> jail time for minor offences.
>
> Ec
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Harry Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Zero0000 has blocked Lance6Wins

body:
Zero0000 said "...well known for inventing news
stories."

Zero0000 makes this claim regularly.

He does not provide examples to back up the claim.

Every one and every news source makes errors.  Some
(such as the New York Times) publish those corrections
in a corrections section that is usually well off the
front page. INN publishes its corrections front and
center.  An example:
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=69258 correcting
a earlier article:
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=69253

Please note that Zero0000 does not dispute the content
of Yisacharov's (sp?) interview saying that Hamas
increased its suicide bombings in response to the
Pilot's Letter.  He does not dispute the interview on
Israeli TV with Yisacharov.  His only objection
appears to be that the citation refers to the INN
website.

I dont know how to create a citation that everyone can
verify (click a hyperlink) to a television interview
or radio broadcast. Sometimes TV or radio programs are
available on the web....mostly not.

Lance6Wins

--- zero 0000 <nought_0000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > If you think we get silly complaints now about
> sysop abuse, just
> > imagine what it would be like if we let sysops win
> arguments over
> > content by blocking people who disagree.
>
> Of course you are right.  However, I did not block
> him to win
> an argument over content but to stop his vandalism.
> The issue
> was not over the content of the material but the
> fact that
> his only source for it was a pirate radio station
> well known
> for inventing news stories.  He has been inserting
> material
> from this same source for months despite repeated
> complaints
> from many editors, and the time has passed for it to
> be
> regarded as vandalism.  If the same material is
> found in a
> respectable source, there would be no problem.
>
> Having said that, in my frustration it appears that
> I went
> further than the rules for dealing with vandals
> permit.
> As you say, I should have consulted another sysop.
> I won't
> do it again.  In fact I might not do anything again
> as I am
> reconsidering my involvement in Wikipedia
> altogether.  This
> is not a reaction to this particular event but a
> more general
> issue that I will write a separate note on.
>
> --Zero
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Alfio Puglisi

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for a new Wikipedia

body:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Mark Williamson wrote:

>There are plenty of Sicilian-language websites online

Are you sure? A google search of "veru beddu" (very beautiful) returns 5
results, searching for "ntrallazzu" returns 15 results, many of them in
italian.

>Also, Sicilian is, along with Italian, a co-official language of the
>Sicilian autonomous region of Italy.

It isn't. Sicily is an autonomous region, but the language is not
officially recognized.

Alfio


from_name: Petr Kadlec

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Requests for logos

body:
Hi!

On the czech (cs:) Wikipedia, we still have the original english logo.
On meta:Requests for logos, I have added the request that we are ready
to switch the logo, but there is still no reply (after a month). So I
am trying to catch someone's attention here -- could you help to
change the logo?

Thanks,
Mormegil


from_name: James R. Johnson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
After a cursory glance at the KLI,...they really should be writing their
wiki with the pIqaD font, instead of using tlh S D and the like.  It'd be
more 'authentic.'

James

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Peter Gervai
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 5:29 AM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

[re language copyrights]

I don't know about USA but just finished one big hunk of 'copyright' article
in HU: so I believe I'm pretty up to date on the European interpretation
(probably similar to international treaties) which explicitely does not
allow to copyright ideas, or anything which isn't "materialised". So the
toki pona or klingon website, books, recorded materials etc could be
copyrighted, but the languages themselves cannot.

(As a sidenote the Klingon font faces/glyphs probably cannot be copyrighted
either, just their actual representational forms, prints, etc.)

IANAL (but I have read the law recently :))

peter

ps: ...which doesn't mean they're not protected by other laws, though.
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Paweł 'Ausir' Dembowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
A> If a language can be copyrighted, then it is, but I don't know what
A> the implications of that are since I wrote to Paramount about this at
A> the start of June and got no reply.
A> Angela.

Try writing to Klingon Language Institute instead.

--
Ausir
mailto:fallout at lexx.eu.org
http://fallout.scifi.pl
ICQ 41090834 GG 2730728


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
Oh, definitely not you. I was answering to Craig Franklin.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:34:29 +0200, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mark Williamson a ?crit:
>
>
> > No, this is not the place for a flamefest.
> >
> > What was the half-researched junk I said about Sicilian? The
> > Ethnologue agrees with me as to the number of speakers.
> >
> > Also, perhaps it didn't occur to you that "decent editor" refers to
> > contributions to the community, and not just posts on the ML?
> >
> > Also, since you get e-mails from the list in digest format, I would
> > ask that in the future, you please trim them in your replies.
> >
> > --node
>
> Who are you answering to ?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
I don't know anybody currently who knows me by my Navajo name although
I have in the past.

As to other IPs/acc'ts: There are heaps and heaps of other IPs. Most
of them I will probably never be able to recover the contribs for. I'm
supposed to have a static IP (I have cable), but it changes every so
often.

As far as "very young contributor", I think it is not fair to judge my
actions only by my age but also by the age relative to other
contributors. There's a good 10 or 20 regular contributors who fall
between the ages of 13 and 18, and there's also a lot of regular
contributors between 18 and 21.

As far as home schooling is concerned, that's only for the last school
year or so, and I still have regular social contact with my peers and
with others, so I don't think its fair to say my situation leaves me
socially deprived.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:00:42 +0200, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> Some (openly accessible) background info on Node_ue:
>
> Node's EN contributions can be seen here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:
> Contributions&target=Node_ue
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:
> Contributions&target=24.251.242.236
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:
> Contributions&target=68.110.71.34
> (this is not necessarily a complete list -- there might be other
> accounts/IPs)
>
> Node_ue (aka Mark Andrew Williamson, aka Jin Junshu, aka Kanamura
> Toshigaki [and also known by Korean and Navajo names which he gives on
> his homepage])
> is currently 15 years old.
>
> This is according to his own homepage
> >> http://www.fixedsys.org/~node_ue/profile/index.htm.en
> which can be found via his user page
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Node_ue
>
> Also according to his user page, Node_ue is currently getting
> home-schooled.
>
> This suggests to me that Node is a very young contributor (nothing
> wrong with that) whose "Real World exposure" may be be limited.
> It might be a good idea to take that into account in any potential
> deliberations.
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>      www.ropersonline.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Peter Gervai

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
[re language copyrights]

I don't know about USA but just finished one big hunk of 'copyright' article
in HU: so I believe I'm pretty up to date on the European interpretation
(probably similar to international treaties) which explicitely does not
allow to copyright ideas, or anything which isn't "materialised". So the
toki pona or klingon website, books, recorded materials etc could be
copyrighted, but the languages themselves cannot.

(As a sidenote the Klingon font faces/glyphs probably cannot be copyrighted
either, just their actual representational forms, prints, etc.)

IANAL (but I have read the law recently :))

peter

ps: ...which doesn't mean they're not protected by other laws, though.


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Wikitech-l] IPv6 for Wikimedia ??

body:
I was wondering,
Would it not be a beautiful thing to not only have our IPv4 adresses but
also IPv6 adresses. Would it not be grand if we moved towards the future
? People is Asia are adopting IPv6 and it would be cool if they do not
have to go through hoops to get to our IPv4 network.

What is needed to get Wikimedia IPv6 addresses as well ?

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Node and Toki Pona

body:
You might want to check out [[Talk:Tucson, Arizona]].

RickK

Mark Ryan <ultrablue at gmail.com> wrote:
As far as I know (and I don't know much), apart from this hokie pokie
toki poki (whatever it's called) language thing, node only really
causes difficulty/disruption to some users on the #Wikipedia IRC
channel. I've never come across any disputes involving him on the
actual encyclopedia. We shouldn't punish people simply because they
are unpopular.

~Mark

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi,

Le Wednesday 22 September 2004 11:28, Henry H. Tan-Tenn a ?crit :
> Yann Forget wrote:
> > It's surprising that Bengali Wikipedia didn't start yet. There are
> > probably more than 200 millions people speaking Bengali, although I don't
> > how many among these have Bengali as their monther tongue (190M according
> > to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language, 207M according to other
> > sources). And Bengali people have also a strong reputation for cultural
> > awareness, and the Bengali language has a long tradition of poetry and
> > literature.
>
> Apparently Windows just got around to supporting Unicode Bengali with
> their SP2 release this year (see
> http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/bengali.html).  So I'd _guess_ the
> Internet-using elite is still largely using a legacy encoding (assuming
> Windows dominance in Bengali computing).  I've certainly run into Indic
> sites that render text with graphics files (as is still occasionally
> done with Chinese characters).
>
> Actually Minnan has the same issue:  transitioning from legacy encoding
> to Unicode.  Community growth is to an extend limited by the will to
> switch, i.e. how desperately people need Wikipedia ;)
>
> > Each of Assamese, Burmese, Gujarati, Kannada, Khmer, Nepalese, Oriya,
> > Panjabi, Pashtu, Sindhi, and Telugu have more than 10 millions speakers.
> > However most of these speakers have a poor Internet connectivity at the
> > best. So it just a matter of time when Internet connections become easily
> > available in these parts of the world.
>
> So it would seem that connectivity is necessary but insufficient for
> accessing less-well supported/unsupported Unicode standards.

Yes, localization of computers is one of the necessary steps before people
could contribute.

Literacy is another one. As an example, in Gujarat, about 30 % of the
population is illetrate, but that figure is a poor indication of the capacity
to contribute to an encyclopedia.

I have a friend who is graduated from the Indian Institute of Management, a
school with a worldwide reputation (teachers come from Havard, etc.), but
can't read or write Gujarati, her mother tongue.

Today in India, it is fashionable to send children to English medium schools,
which are usually more expensive and of higher quality than local languages
schools. So educated people are perfectly fluent in English, but illetrate in
their mother tongue.

Regards,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

subject:
[WikiEN-l] pirate radio station as source (was: Zero0000 has
	blocked Lance6Wins)

body:
Zero,

If a contributor's only source is a pirate radio station, then write an
article about the station. Then link all mentions of the station with [[
and ]] brackets, like this:

* According to [[Pirates R Us]], the PLO leader smells of elderberries.

Anyone whose opinion or judgment you value will click on the link and
read your accurate and neutral article on them:

'''Pirates R Us''' is a clandestinely operated radio station
broadcasting from mall parking lots in Tel Aviv and north Jerusalem. It
was banned by the Israeli government after a court found it in violation
of Regulation 123-456. After losing on appeal, the group said, "What the
heck" and turned "pirate".

Okay, the content above is, er, somewhat imaginary, but it's just an
example of HOW TO DO IT. Now, please, go do it, and then let us know how
it works out.

Ed Poor
Resident Genius, Peacemaker, and all-around nice guy


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
Angela_ wrote:
> I've just reverted over 200 edits on the toki pona Wikipedia. Someone
> apparently feels the language is copyrighted so decided to replace
> every page, including user pages and the main page, with a copyright
> violation notice, presumably with the use of a bot. I've reverted
> these, although unfortunately the "bot rollback" failed on later pages
> so recent changes is a mess. I haven't deleted anything, so if people
> want to see the pages, such as "copyviopedia" this person created they
> can still do so.

Edits were performed anonymously with the IP address 24.251.242.236 .
The corresponding hostname is ip24-251-242-236.ph.ph.cox.net.

On the English Wikipedia:

mysql> select distinct rc_user_text from recentchanges where
rc_ip='24.251.242.236';
+--------------+
| rc_user_text |
+--------------+
| Node ue      |
+--------------+

I suggest a temporary ban from all projects effective immediately.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Mark Ryan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
Just the other day, acting in good faith, I went through about 50
articles on the English Wikipedia changing [[Strand, England]] to
[[The Strand]], and moved the article there. It turns out I was
completely wrong, and it was right originally. Ought I be banned for
this too?

Seriously, we have enough malicious vandals on Wikipedia to focus on
without also banning decent editors. Regardless of how much node may
annoy people in the #Wikipedia IRC channel, as far as I know he is a
good contributor to the encyclopedia itself. If making a mistake like
this constitutes vandalism and is a bannable offence, then almost
every sysop on Wikipedia ought be banned. People break the Main Page,
stub messages and things like that all the time. Is this more serious
because it takes more effort to fix? Or have you all made up your
minds that node did this maliciously? Didn't this raise a valid
concern about the vagueness of the copyrights for these con-lang
wikis? I feel that, as Wikipedia grows, we need to be more and more
vigilent for copyright violations, and a hard-line policy is
imperative. The larger we grow, the larger the target we are for
holders of violated copyrights.

~Mark

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:14:44 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> As I said before, I was not aware of this.
>
> My statement that I did what I did in good faith still stands (though
> obviously I will not do it ever again, in fact chances are I'll never
> post a copyvio notice anywhere again).
>
> --node
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:08:48 +0100, Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've just spoken to Sonja about this. Please see below for the end of
> > an email she sent me this morning regarding the copyright status of
> > the language.
> >
> > Angela.
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Sonja Elen Kisa <marraskuu1978 at yahoo.com>
> > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:45:44 -0400 (EDT)
> > Subject: toki pona Wikipedia
> > To: angela at wikimedia.org
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Anyway, the Toki Pona language is obviously released
> > under the GFDL.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Sonja
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Node and Toki Pona

body:
As far as I know (and I don't know much), apart from this hokie pokie
toki poki (whatever it's called) language thing, node only really
causes difficulty/disruption to some users on the #Wikipedia IRC
channel. I've never come across any disputes involving him on the
actual encyclopedia. We shouldn't punish people simply because they
are unpopular.

~Mark

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:34:15 -0500, Phil Sandifer
<sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> My two cents -
>
> What node did was stupid and immature, and he should have known that
> blanking an entire encyclopedia was not the way to offer his concerns.
> He should have posted to the list, on meta, or somewhere else that he
> thought the entire encyclopedia might be copyvio. It could have been
> discussed, and bot rollbacks wouldn't have been necessary.
>
> As node has, to say the least, been a source of difficulty and
> disruption in the past, I can see why there's a significant movement to
> throw the book at him.
>
> My feeling is that a project-wide ban is a very, very big step, though,
> and should be reserved. I think node is pretty clearly on warning here,
> and that further displays of such immaturity will pretty much not be
> tolerated by anyone.
>
> -Snowspinner
>
>
> On Sep 22, 2004, at 12:28 AM, Angela_ wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:11:47 -0700, Matt Brown <morven at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> For the edification of the rest of us, what is this regarding?
> >
> > Basically, an anon IP replaced practically every page on the toki pona
> > Wikipedia with a copyright violation template because he didn't
> > believe the language itself was GFDL. I reverted this because I
> > thought it was GFDL. Tim announced the vandal was node-ue and proposed
> > a project-wide ban, Raul654 banned node-ue on en and meta, Danny
> > convinced Raul654 to unblock him, and Sonja, the creator of the
> > language, said toki pona "is obviously released under the GFDL". See
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2004-September/
> > 017331.html
> > and other emails in that thread.
> >
> > Angela.
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
The Klingon pIqaD is encoded, albeit unofficially, in the Private Use
Range of Unicode; it is registered with the Conscript Registry (I
believe that's what it's called?) which is managed by Michael Everson,
one of the main founders of Unicode.

I personally do not think that it would be a good idea to use that,
though, because it's possible and even probable that the characters
the average font assigns to the private use range do not match with
those assigned by the Conscript Registry.

I think what James meant is that rather than typing things in a
transliterated way, they should be typed in a way that's compatible
with general non-Unicode pIqaD fonts.

I don't really know Klingon, but I'll give an example:

tlhIngan = transliteration
DIngan = font (I think?)

It's not really much of an issue anyways, as presumably one could use
opentype features to make the sequence t-l-h display as the tlh
character; and from what I know, most Klingon in use isn't in pIqaD
(even the few books written in Klingon, I think).

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:53:08 +0200, Pawe? 'Ausir' Dembowski
<fallout at lexx.eu.org> wrote:
> JRJ> After a cursory glance at the KLI,...they really should be writing their
> JRJ> wiki with the pIqaD font, instead of using tlh S D and the like.  It'd be
> JRJ> more 'authentic.'
> JRJ> James
>
> There would have to be Unicode support for that font first...
>
>
>
> --
> Ausir
> mailto:fallout at lexx.eu.org
> http://fallout.scifi.pl
> ICQ 41090834 GG 2730728
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>
	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org> <ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<4A99FA0C-0CD2-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com>
	<834ED326-0CD4-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com>

body:
Ooh. I asked Nohat about that, we'll see what's wrong; seeing as all
those Wikipedias now have the ability for sysops to update the logos
themselves, once I fix them it'll probably be a lot easier.

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:18:05 +0200, Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:
> On 22 Sep 2004, at 22:02, Jens Ropers wrote:
>
> > On 22 Sep 2004, at 21:40, Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
> >
> >> Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:,
> >> el:, jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
> >>
> >> The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .
> >>
> >> Please protect them !
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ashar Voultoiz
> >
> > For some weird and wonderful reason most or all of these logos are
> > rendered "too high" in Safari (http://www.apple.com/safari), ie. the
> > top bit of the picture is cut off.
> > I don't have that problem with other WP logos such as en.
> > This suggests to me that you must have done something differently.
> >
> > (I also don't have that problem on the below WPs when using MSIE:mac
> > (www.microsoft.com/mac/ie), but my assumption about you probably
> > having done something differently from other WPs still stands.)
>
> s/the below WPs/the above Wikipedias/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
Henry H. Tan-Tenn a ?crit:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>> ...For example, just in the past couple of days I have made
>> logos for over a dozen Wikipedias, and posted them on Meta. I am also
>> (at least I think) partially responsible for the founding of fo: and
>> lb: (I informed people of the possibility of creating them).
>
>
> I have little idea how banning works but I'd personally prefer Node
> commit to making or fixing a non-infinite number of logos rather than be
> temporarily banned for impulsively adding copyvio notices en masse.

I agree.

When my kids do mistakes, I usually first scream (very loud). Then I ask
them to fix their mess. And when I am full of energy, I give them TIG
(Travaux d'Int?r?t G?r?raux in French, which means "task beneficial to
the whole community").

The alternative is to scream, lock them in their room and go for the
sponge and washing power myself. Well, 'am lazy :-)


from_name: Pablo Saratxaga

subject: [Wikitech-l] IPv6 for Wikimedia ??

body:
Kaixo!

On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 11:56:30AM +0200, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> I was wondering,
> Would it not be a beautiful thing to not only have our IPv4 adresses but
> also IPv6 adresses. Would it not be grand if we moved towards the future
> ? People is Asia are adopting IPv6 and it would be cool if they do not
> have to go through hoops to get to our IPv4 network.
>
> What is needed to get Wikimedia IPv6 addresses as well ?

The software itself is perfectly able to work in IPv6, I did it while
hosting the start of Walloon wikipedia on my own machine (you can still
see the IPv6 anonymous IP addresses, eg on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/TablesWikipediaWA.htm, at
the "recently absent wikipedians" table there is "::1" and
"3ffe:b80:19ff:1:250:4ff:fe44:f063"
There is a bug in the handling of "::1", the contributions link doesn't
work because of the leading ":", if you manually edit the url to add
[ and ] around the IP, then it works; but there shouldn't be any real
traffic comming from "::1" (aka, localhost) on real server anyway)

So, the only thing needed is an IPv6 connectivity and then adding
entries to the DNS.

The stats scripts should maybe also be modified to recognize
an IPv6 anonymous IP and list it at the right place.

--
Ki ?a vos v?ye b?n,
Pablo Saratxaga

http://chanae.walon.org/pablo/		PGP Key available, key ID: 0xD9B85466
[you can write me in Walloon, Spanish, French, English, Catalan or Esperanto]
[min povas skribi en valona, esperanta, angla aux latinidaj lingvoj]
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20040922/1d69859e/attachment.pgp>


from_name: al Beri

subject: [Wikitech-l] i18n tt:

body:
Please update CVS with the file:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LanguageTt.php

It's my implementation of the ucfirst and lcfirst functions
for tt:, tr:, and az:

Check please

 function ucfirst( $string )
 {
     if (function_exists('mb_strtoupper'))
     {
         $firstChar = mb_substr($string,0,1);
         return (($firstChar == 'i') ? '?' :
           mb_strtoupper($firstChar)).mb_substr($string,1);
     }
     else
     {
         global $wikiUpperChars;
         $upperChars = array('i'=>'?') + $wikiUpperChars;
         return preg_replace (
             "/^([a-z]|[\\xc0-\\xff][\\x80-\\xbf]*)/e",
             "strtr ( \"\$1\" , \$upperChars )",
             $string
         );
     }
 }

 function lcfirst( $string )
 {
     if (function_exists('mb_strtolower'))
     {
         $firstChar = mb_substr($string,0,1);
         return (($firstChar == 'I') ? '?' :
           mb_strtolower($firstChar)).mb_substr($string,1);
     }
     else
     {
         global $wikiLowerChars;
         $lowerChars = array('I'=>'?') + $wikiLowerChars;
         return preg_replace (
             "/^([A-Z]|[\\xc0-\\xff][\\x80-\\xbf]*)/e",
             "strtr ( \"\$1\" , \$lowerChars )",
             $string
         );
     }
 }

Thanks for help
http://tt.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Al_Beri


from_name: Mark Christensen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
> As far as "very young contributor", I think it is not fair to
> judge my actions only by my age...

I think the point Jens Ropers was making is that your age and
inexperience should mitigate the impropriety of your actions.

I would recommend learning two new skills that will make your work with
other wikipedians more rewarding and successful.  1) wait a day before
posting a reply, and 2) always approach other people's posts with an
attitude that says "I understand you have something valuable to say, and
I'm sure I could learn a lot from you."  If you do these two things,
I'll bet you'll find that people are much more open to what you have to
say.

Another funny thing about resistance is that the more you push the more
people resist.  This cycle can keep going for a long time, but it
requires that both sides keep pushing.  If you stop fighting and work on
some problems that both of you care about, you will often find that
resistance melts away.

--Mark Christensen


from_name: Sj

subject: [WikiEN-l] [Thijs van Domburg: Sesame Street]

body:
Did this fellow (Th. v. D.) get a personal reply?

SJ

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 07:59:49 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
<jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from Thijs van Domburg  -----
>
> From: Thijs van Domburg

> Dear mister Wales,
>
> I found an article about Fat Blue on wikipedia, a character from sesame street. I created the Sesame Street Encyclopedia www.sesame-encyclopedia.com . The article is exactly copied from my site. I do not mind if some facts are used from my site, but I do not tolerate exact copies of my writings. I hope you'll remove it soon, or write your own version of it.
>
> Thijs van Domburg

--
+sj+


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Capitalisation on the French Wiktionary

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>>I'd say if someone links to [[ph]] it should find [[pH]], and editing
>>[[ph]] would open [[pH]] for edit.
>>
>>
>
>No, for me [[Ph]], [[pH]] and [[ph]] are three different words.
>If I edit [[pH]], I don't expect to find [[Ph]].
>
>But maybe a link in == See also == might help.
>
>
The main reason I'd have for it is that on the internet, people often
just search in all-lowercase, because they're used to capitalization not
mattering.  So if they want to find the article on pH, they might just
type "ph" into the search box, and the way our search algorithm works,
it'd take them directly to [[ph]], since it'd be an exact match.  Of
course, if there are "see also" links to [[pH]] then it's fine, but it
makes those links necessary, because [[pH]] won't by default come up in
a search for "ph" if there's also a [[ph]] article.

-Mark


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
> Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would
> like to
> complete this first edition for Christmas.

I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody
would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand
articles each day in order to meet this deadline.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment.pgp


body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
> Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would
> like to
> complete this first edition for Christmas.

I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody
would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand
articles each day in order to meet this deadline.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment-0001.pgp


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
> Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would
> like to
> complete this first edition for Christmas.

I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody
would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand
articles each day in order to meet this deadline.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment.pgp


body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
> Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would
> like to
> complete this first edition for Christmas.

I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody
would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand
articles each day in order to meet this deadline.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment.pgp>


body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
> Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would
> like to
> complete this first edition for Christmas.

I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody
would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand
articles each day in order to meet this deadline.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment-0001.pgp>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
> Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would
> like to
> complete this first edition for Christmas.

I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody
would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand
articles each day in order to meet this deadline.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment.pgp


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
> Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would
> like to
> complete this first edition for Christmas.

I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody
would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand
articles each day in order to meet this deadline.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment.pgp>


from_name: andrew fabbro

subject: [Wikitech-l] xhtml_skin.pt is the devil's work

body:
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, Rowan Collins wrote:

> I believe the file to edit is called something like xhtml_slim.pt
> I may be completely wrong though.

I'm thoroughly confused by this file.  I'm using the monobook skin
in an exceedingly vanilla configuration.

First, there are some things that apparently are extraneous in it...e.g.,
Leonardo da Vinci ;)

Second, modifying it gives confusing, inoperative results.  For example:

At line 66, I insert this line:

Important Info

So this link will appear in each navigation pane, right?  No:

 	- It does not appear on Main Page
 	- In fact, it only appears on Community Portal, Current Events, and
 		Help, as well as all of the toolbox pages (what links, related, special).
 	- It does not appear on any of my local pages
 	- If I go to 'Recent changes', I get:

 		[pear_error: message="XML_ERROR_TAG_MISMATCH in /data/www/localhost/htdocs/wiki/templates/xhtml_slim.pt around line 66" code=0 mode=return level=notice prefix="" info=""]

BTW, that is all true even if it's something very simple like:

 	Bogus!

And so stands my rather frustrating quest to change the left navigation
bar...unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any information on it
and skin.doc is not very friendly ;)

andrew fabbro                                            [andrew at fabbro.org]
------------------------------[ quote-o-matic] -----------------------------
"If one doubts the necessity for controls, reflect on the statement: It has
been conclusively demonstrated by hundreds of experiments that the beating
of tom-toms will restore the sun after an eclipse." -- E.B. Wilson


body:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:

>If a contributor's only source is a pirate radio station, then write an
>article about the station. Then link all mentions of the station with [[
>and ]] brackets, like this:
>
>* According to [[Pirates R Us]], the PLO leader smells of elderberries.
>
>
I agree, but I would also note that you don't have to mention what
everyone says on everything.  However, the main criterion should not be
objectivity (it's not our job to be media critic) but relevance.  If
it's a pirate radio station with a shady reputation but a large audience
and large name-recognition, then what they say should be noted and
attributed to them (and people can decide if they're just nuts).  If
it's some random guy nobody knows about, we of course don't have to say
"but this guy said [blah blah]".

In this case from what I can tell it's somewhat borderline.  It's a
station with a small but hardcore following, but it seems well known in
the general public because of the controversy surrounding it.  So I'd
lean towards reporting what they say (where reasonably relevant, as
given the media coverage I think this case is) and just attributing it
to them.  If other people have questioned the veracity of the report, we
can say that too.

-Mark


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>
	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org> <ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<cisuud$ovk$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Hmm. You're right. I wonder about that...

--node

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:39:06 -0400, Henry H. Tan-Tenn
<share2002nov at lomaji.com> wrote:
> Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
> > Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:, el:,
> > jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
> >
> > The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .
>
> Thanks!  For some reason, though, the zh-min-nan logo still appears as
> English.  I tried dumping old browser cache.  Could this be related to
> the fact that zh-min-nan also doesn't show up on
> http://download.wikimedia.org?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Mark Richards

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with
	Mandrakesoft

body:
I appreciate the sentiment, but why? There can't be
very many people installing the latest Mandrake distro
who don't have an internet connection?
Perhaps some, but really, how many people are going to
find this more useful than a link on the mandrake
desktop?
Mark

--- Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:

> At 04:20 PM 9/22/2004 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> >On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
> >>Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a
> master DVD, and would like to
> >>complete this first edition for Christmas.
> >
> >I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely
> optimistic. Somebody
> >would need to check and lock off for publishing
> several thousand articles
> >each day in order to meet this deadline.
>
> My impression was that this isn't going to be a
> "reviewed" 1.0-style
> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's
> had all the images
> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically
> stripped out, and possibly
> the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as
> well (personally I think
> stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not a
> major issue either
> way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> bound to catch a few
> articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that it
> will actually be
> possible to do it in the timeframe needed. It'd be
> not much different than
> the many websites that are already running static
> mirrors of Wikipedia content.
>
> A lot of articles might wind up looking a little
> messy when images get
> stripped out, too. Hopefully the stripping process
> will be clever enough to
> take out the relevant [[Image:]] tags, but there
> will be leftover tables
> and divs and whatnot that get missed by this. Oh
> well.
> > _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


subject: [Wikitech-l] Parser test suite

body:
I've added a primitive regression test suite for the parser;
maintenance/parserTest.php. It runs a bunch of wikitext fragments from
parserTest.txt through the parser and compares the resulting HTML to
the expected results.

Right now it still depends on the wiki configuration for a number of
things and requires a workable wiki to be set up. As such some results
may vary depending on the configuration such as what language it's set
to. :P (I'd like ideally to have it runnable on a raw distribution
tarball, using a mock database and requiring no configuration.)

Wil's added in a bunch of additional tests -- thanks, Wil! Please
folks, add more test cases to the file... Ideally keep each case small
and individual to make it easier to refer to them.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20040922/a5af765c/attachment.pgp>


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Ahhh crosspost!!! (was Re: Partnership with
	Mandrakesoft)

body:
He could've at least translated it to French for wikifr-l...

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:21:38 +1000, Tim Starling
<t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> Yann Forget wrote:
> >  Hi,
> >
> >  Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux
> >  distribution, is interested to distribute a DVD with an English and
> >  French version of Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site
> >  and included with the next distribution, due in next April.
>
> That's all very interesting, but did you have to tell me about it FIVE
> TIMES???
>
> Please follow up to wikipedia-l.
>
> -- Tim Starling
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Phil Sandifer

body:
I don't think the small but hardcore following necessarily makes their
views encyclopedic - consider the case of Lyndon LaRouche, which the
arbcom has ruled ought not be mentioned in articles that do not
directly pertain to LaRouche. So I would still lean towards this not
being encyclopedic.

-Snowspinner

On Sep 22, 2004, at 3:20 PM, Delirium wrote:

> Poor, Edmund W wrote:
>
>> If a contributor's only source is a pirate radio station, then write
>> an
>> article about the station. Then link all mentions of the station with
>> [[
>> and ]] brackets, like this:
>>
>> * According to [[Pirates R Us]], the PLO leader smells of
>> elderberries.
>>
> I agree, but I would also note that you don't have to mention what
> everyone says on everything.  However, the main criterion should not
> be objectivity (it's not our job to be media critic) but relevance.
> If it's a pirate radio station with a shady reputation but a large
> audience and large name-recognition, then what they say should be
> noted and attributed to them (and people can decide if they're just
> nuts).  If it's some random guy nobody knows about, we of course don't
> have to say "but this guy said [blah blah]".
>
> In this case from what I can tell it's somewhat borderline.  It's a
> station with a small but hardcore following, but it seems well known
> in the general public because of the controversy surrounding it.  So
> I'd lean towards reporting what they say (where reasonably relevant,
> as given the media coverage I think this case is) and just attributing
> it to them.  If other people have questioned the veracity of the
> report, we can say that too.
>
> -Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with  Mandrakesoft

body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
> possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
> (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not
> a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that
> it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed.

Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
state. I can't support this as described.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment.pgp


body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
> possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
> (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not
> a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that
> it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed.

Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
state. I can't support this as described.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment-0001.pgp


body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
> possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
> (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not
> a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that
> it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed.

Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
state. I can't support this as described.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment.pgp


body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
> possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
> (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not
> a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that
> it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed.

Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
state. I can't support this as described.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment.pgp>


body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
> possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
> (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not
> a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that
> it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed.

Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
state. I can't support this as described.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment-0001.pgp>


body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
> possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
> (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not
> a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that
> it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed.

Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
state. I can't support this as described.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment.pgp


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with
	Mandrakesoft

body:
On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
> My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
> possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
> (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not
> a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's
> bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that
> it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed.

Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
state. I can't support this as described.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment.pgp>


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
Mark Williamson a ?crit:
> No, this is not the place for a flamefest.
>
> What was the half-researched junk I said about Sicilian? The
> Ethnologue agrees with me as to the number of speakers.
>
> Also, perhaps it didn't occur to you that "decent editor" refers to
> contributions to the community, and not just posts on the ML?
>
> Also, since you get e-mails from the list in digest format, I would
> ask that in the future, you please trim them in your replies.
>
> --node

Who are you answering to ?


from_name: Henry H. Tan-Tenn

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Ashar Voultoiz wrote:

> Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:, el:,
> jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
>
> The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .

Thanks!  For some reason, though, the zh-min-nan logo still appears as
English.  I tried dumping old browser cache.  Could this be related to
the fact that zh-min-nan also doesn't show up on
http://download.wikimedia.org?


from_name: Bryan Derksen

body:
At 04:20 PM 9/22/2004 -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:

>On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
>>Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would like to
>>complete this first edition for Christmas.
>
>I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody
>would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand articles
>each day in order to meet this deadline.

My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and possibly
the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well (personally I think
stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not a major issue either
way). The downside of this approach is that it's bound to catch a few
articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that it will actually be
possible to do it in the timeframe needed. It'd be not much different than
the many websites that are already running static mirrors of Wikipedia content.

A lot of articles might wind up looking a little messy when images get
stripped out, too. Hopefully the stripping process will be clever enough to
take out the relevant [[Image:]] tags, but there will be leftover tables
and divs and whatnot that get missed by this. Oh well.


from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Speaking of which, there is a list of logos that need to be updated
> here: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-development_tasks_for_developers
>
> --node
>
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:19:53 +0200, Petr Kadlec <petr.kadlec at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi!
>>
>>On the czech (cs:) Wikipedia, we still have the original english logo.
>>On meta:Requests for logos, I have added the request that we are ready
>>to switch the logo, but there is still no reply (after a month). So I
>>am trying to catch someone's attention here -- could you help to
>>change the logo?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Mormegil

Hello,

I am going to update them all.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [WikiEN-l] "Other Perspectives"

body:
Including side-notes about every well-known controversial opinion can
clutter up an article and detract from its usefulness.  "The Earth is
generally accepted to be a spheroid with average radius 6360 km.  The
[[flat-earthers]] think it is a flat plane, but debate whether it
circular, square, or has edges at all.  Some flat-earthers think that
both sides of a flat earth are inhabited."

It might be appropriate to start a custom of having a section titled
"Other Perspectives" or some such at the end of an article, before the
references and see-alsos.  The body of the article can then present
accepted collective understanding of a subject, which most readers
will expect to find in a respectable resource, while allowing space to
note controversial or popular fringe view.  References to that section
could be made from the rest of the text.

 [To this end, and for other reasons, it would be nice to
auto-generate footnotes...]

For instance, one might write: [with autogenerated footnotes]

"Famous impossible constructions include trisecting the
angle[[Footnote:#Other perspectives]] and squaring the circle."

==Other perspectives==
There are a number of amateur mathematicians, known to others in the
field as 'angle trisectors', who continue to work on constructions for
trisecting an angle, disbelieving a long-standing (and
three-page-long) proof that this is impossible.  They are infamous for
the persistence of their correspondence with any mathematician willing
to review their  constructions.

--
+sj+


from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Capitalisation on the French Wiktionary

body:
Hi,

Capitalisation is now only an option in the French Wiktionary.

So, f.e., now [[allemand]] and [[Allemand]] are two different articles.

All language names are lower cases in French.

Thanks,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Capitalisation on the French Wiktionary


body:
Erik Moeller wrote:

>Am I the only one who is worried about this?
>
>
Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone
appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're
getting into.  When they say they're willing to take the legal risk, do
they know that there is a non-negligible chance that there are
copyrighted materials in there somewhere?  Or are they only thinking
about libel/etc.?  It's possible they're familiar with Wikipedia and
already know all this, but someone should find out.

Besides that though, I don't see how we could possibly have any sort of
peer-reviewed or even reasonably sifted version of Wikipedia available
in time for a Christmas distribution, especially given the code
infrastructure isn't in place yet for it to start.  When they say they
want a master DVD, do they mean some sort of reasonably vetted one, or
are they waiting for us to stick a current snapshot on a DVD?

-Mark


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wiktionary-l] Capitalisation on the French
	Wiktionary

body:
Yann Forget wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Capitalisation is now only an option in the French Wiktionary.
>
>So, f.e., now [[allemand]] and [[Allemand]] are two different articles.
>
>All language names are lower cases in French.
>
>Thanks,
>Yann
>
>
>
Great stuff,
Please can I have it for nl:wiktionary ??

PLEASE !!

Thanks,
    GerardM


body:
At 05:40 PM 9/22/2004 -0700, Mark Richards wrote:

>I appreciate the sentiment, but why? There can't be
>very many people installing the latest Mandrake distro
>who don't have an internet connection?
>Perhaps some, but really, how many people are going to
>find this more useful than a link on the mandrake
>desktop?
>Mark

http://www.clickz.com/stats/big_picture/demographics/article.php/3316541
shows that for the United States, only 67% of urbanites have Internet
access and 52% of rural inhabitants have it.
http://www.clickz.com/stats/markets/broadband/article.php/3409671 indicates
that only 29 million broadband users in the US, which is a little over 10%,
so a lot of Americans are relying on non-broadband. Having an actual
physical right-there copy of Wikipedia could be quite handy.

I bet a nice market could be school libraries in not-so-well-off
neighborhoods. They could buy a cheap second-hand computer, stick a
Mandrake Wikipedia on it, and presto - a top-of-the-line (by some standards
:) encyclopedia that the kids could even make copies of and take home if
they wanted. I recall someone was asking about this very possibility a
month or so back, he wanted to install Wikipedia in some local schools and
was looking for a way to download the image database to go with the text.


from_name: Peter Gervai

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona and klingon

body:
On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 10:43:31AM -0400, James R. Johnson wrote:
[klingon fonts]
> After a cursory glance at the KLI,...they really should be writing their
> wiki with the pIqaD font, instead of using tlh S D and the like.  It'd be
> more 'authentic.'

thats mainly offtopic, but they already explained that the latin
transliteration is "the official" writing, as pIqaD wasn't developed enough
(and probably klingon speakers on earth are too lazy to memorize).

but that doesn't change the fact that they're probably not protected in
europe (yet).

g.


list: textbook-l

from_name: John Dehlin

subject: [Textbook-l] Utah OpenTexbooks Project (Project Dyson)

body:
Friends, Family, USU IT Faculty, Grad Students & Alumni,

It's only in its infancy (pre-conception, you might even say), but I wanted
to let you all know about a project that I've started to think about, under
the guidance/tutelage of Dr. Wiley here at USU.

It is currently called the "Utah OpenTextbooks Project" (codenamed "Project
Dyson" by Dr. Wiley)--and I am considering doing my dissertation around it.
The basic gist is as follows:

The state of Utah, and other states like it, spend over $20M annually on
K-12 textbooks.  With that kind of money, and with shrinking educational
budgets, a few questions are worth asking:

* Are these textbooks worth the $$$?  Also, does a brand new U.S. History or
Algebra 1 textbook need to be repurchased every few years (at full cost) for
whatever few changes may be made?
* Do we want a handful of states (New York, California, Florida, Texas)
driving the content of textbooks in all the other states (which is basically
what happens today, as I?m told)?
* Could better, more innovate textbooks be developed in a
community/open/wiki style (see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page and
www.opensourcetext.org for starters), where the COMMUNITY would retain
ownership of the content?or better yet, share w/ other states/countries?
* Once a textbook has been written by a community, could digital learning
objects be built around the text/course and provided as supplements to the
textbook?helping teachers teach better, and learners learn better (think
free multimedia clips for lectures, test banks and innovate lesson plans for
teachers, or cool multimedia games/self-direct modules for student homework,
etc.)
* Finally, if we can create ?local? (statewide) online communities where
teachers, students, and subject matter experts congregate to create
textbooks, share lesson plans, and basically socialize in the context of an
academic course...can we harness the power of the internet in more positive
ways...to far more productive ends (think ?replace MTV or Xbox with ?Utah
Math Rocks Internet Plaza???

I have attached a very, very rough "Vision Document" that outlines what we
have brainstormed, and some early, high-level steps on how we might go about
achieving our vision.  If you are not comfortable opening attachments from
an email (can?t imagine why you would be :) ), feel free to download the
document from:
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oL1RQdNHDrnawcLP1c-av2v_Y1LRpZ_PL_4Paj7XwHCX0b_
09Ppay-jJ0791jStsb2IgwQl1VSP0Rf6L3jpxxg/Utah%20OpenTextbooks%20Project.doc

We need lots of input/ideas/feedback, so if any of you are interested in
participating in/supporting this project in any way (even as a silent
observer), please feel free to reply w/ feedback, or even join our community
at:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/utahopentextbooks

Also, if you know anyone interested in Utah Education, or Open Textbooks,
please feel free to forward this message to them.

I look forward to collaborating w/ those of you who are interested.  It will
be a long journey to be sure, but hopefully a worthwhile one.

John Dehlin
Director of Outreach
OSLO Research Group
http://oslo.usu.edu/people/jdehlin
Utah State University


body:
Phil Sandifer wrote:

> I don't think the small but hardcore following necessarily makes their
> views encyclopedic - consider the case of Lyndon LaRouche, which the
> arbcom has ruled ought not be mentioned in articles that do not
> directly pertain to LaRouche. So I would still lean towards this not
> being encyclopedic.

In this case, I don't think it's directly analogous.  The views of the
right-wing Israeli settlers are pretty relevant to the issue of
Israeli-Palestinian relations...

-Mark


body:
On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 06:49:36PM +0200, Yann Forget wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Capitalisation is now only an option in the French Wiktionary.
>
> So, f.e., now [[allemand]] and [[Allemand]] are two different articles.
>
> All language names are lower cases in French.

Please enlighten me.

I see why it is good to be able to call an article [[pH]], so that's okay.

However, I fail to see the point why [[ph]] [[pH]] and [[Ph]] have to be
different articles. Can someone show an example where different
capitalisation result different words which require separate articles?

I'd say if someone links to [[ph]] it should find [[pH]], and editing [[ph]]
would open [[pH]] for edit.

thanks
peter


from_name: Paweł 'Ausir' Dembowski

subject: [Wikipedia-l] toki pona

body:
JRJ> After a cursory glance at the KLI,...they really should be writing their
JRJ> wiki with the pIqaD font, instead of using tlh S D and the like.  It'd be
JRJ> more 'authentic.'
JRJ> James

There would have to be Unicode support for that font first...

--
Ausir
mailto:fallout at lexx.eu.org
http://fallout.scifi.pl
ICQ 41090834 GG 2730728


body:
Peter Gervai wrote:

>On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 06:49:36PM +0200, Yann Forget wrote:
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Capitalisation is now only an option in the French Wiktionary.
>>
>>So, f.e., now [[allemand]] and [[Allemand]] are two different articles.
>>
>>All language names are lower cases in French.
>>
>>
>
>Please enlighten me.
>
>I see why it is good to be able to call an article [[pH]], so that's okay.
>
>However, I fail to see the point why [[ph]] [[pH]] and [[Ph]] have to be
>different articles. Can someone show an example where different
>capitalisation result different words which require separate articles?
>
>I'd say if someone links to [[ph]] it should find [[pH]], and editing [[ph]]
>would open [[pH]] for edit.
>
>thanks
>peter
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
This is an old argument; particularly for Wiktionary it makes a hell of
a lot of difference. It is about different words that should be
recognised as such.

allemagne and Allemagne are two different things.

Thanks,
    GerardM


from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
Some (openly accessible) background info on Node_ue:

Node's EN contributions can be seen here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:
Contributions&target=Node_ue
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:
Contributions&target=24.251.242.236
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:
Contributions&target=68.110.71.34
(this is not necessarily a complete list -- there might be other
accounts/IPs)

Node_ue (aka Mark Andrew Williamson, aka Jin Junshu, aka Kanamura
Toshigaki [and also known by Korean and Navajo names which he gives on
his homepage])
is currently 15 years old.

This is according to his own homepage
>> http://www.fixedsys.org/~node_ue/profile/index.htm.en
which can be found via his user page
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Node_ue

Also according to his user page, Node_ue is currently getting
home-schooled.

This suggests to me that Node is a very young contributor (nothing
wrong with that) whose "Real World exposure" may be be limited.
It might be a good idea to take that into account in any potential
deliberations.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


subject:
[Wikitech-l] What is going on ?? The nl:wiktionary is currently a
	mess.

body:
After the changes in the capitalisation, I have made MAJOR changes
already with regard changing to underscore templates.

I do not know who decided to roll back the capitalisation, but the
result is that the nl:wiktionary is broken.

Please let us have the capitalisation turned off because now we are
truly f***ed.

Thanks,
    GerardM


subject:
[Wiktionary-l] What is going on ?? The nl:wiktionary is currently a
	mess.


from_name: Camille Constans

subject:
[Wikitech-l] What is going on ?? The nl:wiktionary is currently
	a mess.

body:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:49:11 +0200
Gerard Meijssen <gerardm at myrealbox.com> wrote:

> After the changes in the capitalisation, I have made MAJOR changes
> already with regard changing to underscore templates.
>
> I do not know who decided to roll back the capitalisation, but the
> result is that the nl:wiktionary is broken.
>
> Please let us have the capitalisation turned off because now we are
> truly f***ed.
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM

Corrected (shaihulud look to Hashar:o) )

Shaihulud