from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: City, state convention

body:
  Daniel Mayer wrote:

>On Saturday 13 July 2002 12:01 pm,  tarquin wrote:
>
>
>>In general, like Lars said, phrases such as "Paris, France" are poor
>>style. If the context is not already clear from the article -- "French
>>composer, born in Paris" for instance -- it is better to write "Paris,
>>in France" or even "Paris (France)".
>>
>>
>
>I've never seen "Paris in France" used a noun before. And the chances of
>[[Paris (France)]] being linked to without using pipes is about nil.  This
>perhaps isn't a good example because [[Paris]] redirects to [[Paris, France]]
>since the city in France is far and away the most widely used meaning of
>simply [[Paris]].
>
That's because "Paris in France" isn't a noun. "Paris" is a noun, "in
France" is an adjective phrase.
I think we are in the throes of culture shock here.
"Paris, France" seems normal to Americans because that's the
nomenclature system you are accustomed to for US cities. I don't know if
it's the case, but to me it seems that that Americans are used to
considering the "city, state" expression as a complete name.
Like Lars said, to Europeans it feels very bizarre.

Something like "Paris in France" or "Paris (France)" indeed wouldn't be
seen, it's a bad example. The context of the article should make it clear.
In both France and the UK, places have their county or departement
specified in parentheses: "Courgenard (Sarthe)", for example, or
"Southampton (Hampshire)"

I guess we're stuck with the "," style for cities now it's prevalent,
but let's not say it's for consistency: true consistency would be "( )"
for ALL disambiguation pages.

>Also, when a person visits [[Paris, France]] the disambiguation block at the
>top of the article makes it very clear that [[Paris]] redirects to that
>article (a link to other uses is provided there too).
>
As I said, why waste the "Paris" page on a redirect?

>The trouble is, that new contributors tend to first follow famous examples
>before looking into [[wikipedia:naming conventions]]
>
perhaps it would help if the naming conventions weren't such a mess. I
spent ages there looking for information when I first started writing,
as I was anxious to follow the established conventions -- hence my
recent suggestions to refactor that area -- which I'm still mulling over.

tarquin

>
>


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cologne Blue

body:
All three work ok on my Notepad, but only Standard gives a transparent
"preferences" link.  On Cologne Blue until I thought a bit, was worried I
was stuck in it. Rather you didn't change, but now since I am so practiced
up on it, changing preference is just a few seconds.

Fred Bauder

At 08:38 PM 7/15/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Even though I desinged the "standard" skin for wikipedia, I think Marian's
>"Cologne Blue" skin looks way better.
>
>I hereby suggest that "Cologne Blue" becomes the standard skin. New
>software, new server - a new standard skin comes natural ;)
>
>Everyone, please, go to www.wikipedia.com (or beta.wikipedia.com, if the
>former is unavailable again), log in and turn on "Cologne Blue" in your
>preferences. I suggest sidebar on the left, but that's up to you;)
>
>CB (for short) not only looks better, it is less *technical*, thus not
>scaring away non-techie newcomers. The first look at a site often decides if
>one hits the back button. So, either have the current skin, designed for
>easy implementation, or CB, created by a professional designer!
>
>Let me hear some opinions.
>
>Magnus
>
>[Wikipedia-l]
>To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
>http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikipedia-l] AW: Re: [Wikipedia-l] AW: Re: [Wikipedia-l] New server, software (Random  page problem)

body:
>The URL http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/special%3ARandomPage
>does not (according to Mozilla) specify the "Expires" HTTP header.

We are talking about http://beta.wikipedia.com, but your suggestion could
be helpful anyway. Thanks.

Magnus

________________________________________
Online Fotoalben - jetzt kostenlos bei http://www.ePost.de


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Imran Ghory

subject: [Wikitech-l] Page layout problem in mozilla

body:
On 15 Jul 2002, at 6:13, Jimmy Wales wrote:

> If this doesn't happen to Windows/IE and Netscape customers, it is
> probably not particularly important.
>
> http://beta.wikipedia.com/wiki/Special%3ARecentchanges
>
> In mozilla, this page renders with the logo on top of the menu
> dropdown box and the "Go" button.  (Also, above that, the "Main Page"
> and "Recent Changes" links have the logo on top of them.)

It occurs in IE5 as well, although for both browsers it only occurs
when the browsers width is less then half the screen (on a 800x600
screen).

Imran
--
TheOpenCD Project
Promoting Open Source on Windows
http://www.theopencd.org


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
On Monday 15 July 2002 07:16 am, Sean Barrett wrote:
> On a similar note, "chihuahua mexico -dog" yields 183,000 results, while
> "chihuahua -mexico dog" yields 65,200. ?We might dare to generalize: if
> in doubt, place names take priority over things named for places -- if
> the names are identical. ?If the names vary even slightly, do the right
> thing: [[Dalmatia]] is a region of [[Croatia]], but [[Dalmatian]] is a
> [[dog]].

Sounds good to me - of course there will probably be exceptions.

--maveric149


from_name: Karen AKA Kajikit

subject: [Wikipedia-l] New server, software coming Saturday.

body:
lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
>
> For those of you who don't know already, we plan to get the new server
> and software for Wikipedia online this Saturday, July 20.  We would
> appreciate a few more days of testing on http://beta.wikipedia.com .
>
> 0
There is a serious problem with the random page routine. I don't know if
anyone else has found this but every time I try it I go to the same
page... I went to the sourceforge site but I couldn't work out how to
make a listing there.

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
Karen AKA Kajikit wrote:
>
> lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
> >
> > For those of you who don't know already, we plan to get the new server
> > and software for Wikipedia online this Saturday, July 20.  We would
> > appreciate a few more days of testing on http://beta.wikipedia.com .
> >
> > 0
> There is a serious problem with the random page routine. I don't know if
> anyone else has found this but every time I try it I go to the same
> page... I went to the sourceforge site but I couldn't work out how to
> make a listing there.

Further to that, I just opened up IE to try it in there and got exactly
the same result. The random page button is just loading the same random
page over and over again instead of taking me to a different one each
time. This seems to be a MAJOR flaw because I normally use the random
button almost all the time to find interesting new articles to work on.

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
Why would anyone read wikipedia in a window 400 pixels wide when a single
click can make it 800? You can "uglify" most web pages that way.

As for the "Random Page" issue, I tried from work and from home, with and
without proxy, on beta.wikipedia.com and on Lee's piclab server, but I
couldn't reproduce the effect. I get another random page every time. And I
don't have any "fancy settings" in my browser.

Magnus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikitech-l-admin at nupedia.com
> [mailto:wikitech-l-admin at nupedia.com]On Behalf Of Imran Ghory
> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:27 PM
> To: wikitech-l at nupedia.com
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Page layout problem in mozilla
>
>
> On 15 Jul 2002, at 6:13, Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
> > If this doesn't happen to Windows/IE and Netscape customers, it is
> > probably not particularly important.
> >
> > http://beta.wikipedia.com/wiki/Special%3ARecentchanges
> >
> > In mozilla, this page renders with the logo on top of the menu
> > dropdown box and the "Go" button.  (Also, above that, the "Main Page"
> > and "Recent Changes" links have the logo on top of them.)
>
> It occurs in IE5 as well, although for both browsers it only occurs
> when the browsers width is less then half the screen (on a 800x600
> screen).
>
> Imran
> --
> TheOpenCD Project
> Promoting Open Source on Windows
> http://www.theopencd.org
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at ross.bomis.com
> http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


body:
> > Why would anyone read wikipedia in a window 400 pixels wide
> when a single
> > click can make it 800? You can "uglify" most web pages that way.
>
> Sure!  But, for me, that isn't the issue.  I'm at 1024x768, a
> pretty normal setting.  I
> am not putting my window to any strange size, either.

Weird. I tried Mozilla 1.0 on Windows 2000, and it looks great, and should
at 1024. Do you have the sidebar on the right or the left?

> Some will say, and I have sympathy for them, that they like to
> run a 400 pixel wide
> browser so that they can have two things going at the same time.
> I don't operate that
> way, but some people do.  So maybe we should care a little about
> them, someday.

They can turn off the sidebar;)


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] AW: Re: [Wikipedia-l] New server, software (Random
 page problem)

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
>
> Must be your proxy settings or something; it works great for me, in IE and
> Mozilla. You obviously get a cached page, either from your computer or a
> proxy.
>
> Magnus

Well I shouldn't. It's not up to me whether or not my isp uses a proxy
server to service the network faster. Labyrinth does as a matter of
fact. But it's hardly the only server that uses proxies and I think it's
vital that you try to fix the problem. It's going to stop me from using
the wikipedia because it removes the function that I use most, but that
doesn't matter - if it doesn't work for me how many thousand other
people won't it work for?

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
>
> > There is a serious problem with the random page routine. I
> > don't know if anyone else has found this but every time I try
> > it I go to the same page... I went to the sourceforge site but
> > I couldn't work out how to make a listing there.
>
> Works fine for be with several browsers; I haven't tried it
> on Windows yet, but I'll do that in the morning--I don't see
> any reason why the new code should behave any differently from
> the old.  It would help if you gave me some more details about
> your exact setup if you can--browser, OS, ISP, any other software
> you have that might do caching, etc.
> 0

I'm not a techy... I use a normal windows 98 puter running an internal
network, and my ISP routes the internet through a proxy server before it
gets to me. I have Opera, Netscape 4.7 and IE on my computer and I tried
them all.

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


from_name: Matthew Woodcraft

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cologne Blue

in_reply_to: <200207151905.g6FJ5Tn27026@ross.bomis.com>; from lcrocker@nupedia.com on Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 12:05:29PM -0700

body:
On Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 12:05:29PM -0700, lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
> My only reservation is that the standard skin works correctly for
> more people, while some old browsers or small screens may have
> problems with Cologne Blue (larger sidebar, etc.)  Also, "standard"
> skin leaves most of the visuals at their defaults, which is good for
> people who have set their browser defaults the way they like.

I agree.

This bit:

#article, #article td, #article th, #article p {
 font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
 font-size: 10pt;

is very bad for a default skin.

On my screen, Cologne Blue is showing 25 words to the line in the
window size which I use for most web browsing. That's far too many, as
any professional designer will know.

I don't have Internet Explorer here, but doesn't setting the font size
in points prevent users of that browser changing the font size even if
they wanted to?

-M-


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Are we an educational purpose?

body:
Lost of web pages make their content available without charge for
"educational purposes". IANAL, but I guess an encyclopedia is clearly
educational, so does that apply to wikipedia as well? If yes, it would mean
that we could copy texts and images (all while giving proper credit to the
original source).

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cologne Blue

body:
Even though I desinged the "standard" skin for wikipedia, I think Marian's
"Cologne Blue" skin looks way better.

I hereby suggest that "Cologne Blue" becomes the standard skin. New
software, new server - a new standard skin comes natural ;)

Everyone, please, go to www.wikipedia.com (or beta.wikipedia.com, if the
former is unavailable again), log in and turn on "Cologne Blue" in your
preferences. I suggest sidebar on the left, but that's up to you;)

CB (for short) not only looks better, it is less *technical*, thus not
scaring away non-techie newcomers. The first look at a site often decides if
one hits the back button. So, either have the current skin, designed for
easy implementation, or CB, created by a professional designer!

Let me hear some opinions.

Magnus


from_name: Tomasz Wegrzanowski

body:
On Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 10:18:29AM -0700, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Can you recommend a screenshot program?

gimp ?


from_name: lcrocker at nupedia.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Numbered section headings within an article

body:
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from_name: Lars Aronsson

body:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Magnus Manske wrote:
> Why would anyone read wikipedia in a window 400 pixels wide when a single
> click can make it 800? You can "uglify" most web pages that way.

I often work with two browser windows side by side on my 1024x768 laptop
screen, one for a Wiki and the other for a Google.  Sometimes, when I look
for the right language link, I have Wikipedia in both windows.  They would
typically be 600 and 400 pixels wide.  The current layout works fine,
though.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  tel +46-70-7891609
  http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/


body:
The other day, I implemented numbered section headlines in my wiki, which
I think is very useful.  I suggest that they should be added to the
Wikipedia software as well.  I'm not very familiar with the PHP source
code, so I hope someone else can write the program from my description:

Here is the problem: You have a long and well written article, e.g.
http://fr.wikipedia.com/wiki.cgi?Pharaon
All it needs is some structure from sections and headings.  There is no
need really to break it into smaller articles.  It's a fine article.

And the solution: In the wiki text, lines that begin with "!" are
headings in different levels, like this:

    !hahaha
1. hahaha

    !hehehe
2. hehehe

    !!hoho
2.1 hoho

    !!hihi
2.2 hihi

    !huhuhu
3. huhuhu

    !!!hy
3.0.1 hy

The number of "!"s indicate the level of heading and numbers are
assigned in sequence.  Since 3.1 is missing, the level 3 heading that
comes immediately after 3. is called 3.0.1.

At the top of the generated HTML code, a short table of content is placed
that links to the right section.

Here is some Perl code for UseModWiki that implements this:

my $ToC;
my @HeaderStack;
sub StoreHeader {
  my ($bangs, $header) = @_;
  my $level = length $bangs;
  while ($#HeaderStack +1 > $level) {
      pop @HeaderStack;
  }
  while ($#HeaderStack +1 < $level) {
      push @HeaderStack, 0;
  }
  $HeaderStack[$level - 1]++;
  my $num = join ".", @HeaderStack;
  my $dot = "";
  $dot = "." if $level == 1;
  $ToC .= " - $num$dot $header\n" if $level <= 3;
  return StoreRaw("<h$level>") . "$num$dot $header" .
Store
Raw("</h$level>");
}

# in sub WikiLinesToHTML:
  @HeaderStack = ();
  $ToC = "";
      ... # foreach line in the article...
      } else {
        $depth = 0;
        s/^(!+)(.*)$/&StoreHeader($1, $2)/eo;
      }
      ...
  return $pageHtml if $ToC eq '';
  return '' . T('Table of Contents') . ' ' . $ToC . '
' . $pageHtml;

You should get the idea.  It's really simple.  Two examples of the use are
http://susning.nu/Hello_world
http://susning.nu/Schack

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  tel +46-70-7891609
  http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/


body:
At 10:13 PM 7/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>The "Auto-number headings" use preferences does pretty much exactly
>this, and it doesn't require the extra notation of "!"s or anything.
>This has been in place since Magnus's software.

Would someone, not necessarily Lee as he is rather busy with other things,
please simply set out an example of this feature and what is done in
editing to use it.

Fred Bauder


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Caching proxies

body:
lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
>
> Karen's right that we have to work with ISP proxies, and we should.
> The only thing I might consider ignoring is if someone is using
> personal caching software that is buggy or misconfigured.  But ISPs
> generally run something well-known and clean like Squid, and we have
> to work there.
>
> I noticed that I while I was sending cache-control headers on
> articles, I wasn't sending them on redirects, which are used for the
> random page function (among others), so it was using server
> defaults.  I fixed the code to make sure it turns off caching for
> everything.  Karen, you should start working as soon as your last
> attempt expires--the server default was three hours.
> 0

That's great... I'll give it another go this afternoon and see if it
works now :)

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Naming conventions page

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
> >perhaps it would help if the naming conventions
> weren't such a mess. I
> >spent ages there looking for information when I first
> started writing,
> >as I was anxious to follow the established
> conventions -- hence my
> >recent suggestions to refactor that area -- which I'm
> still mulling
> >over.
> >
> >tarquin
>
> I agree, the naming conventions page needs to be
> streamlined ? it has reached an unwieldy length and
> organization. If nobody objects I will summarize each
> convention and place the rationale and details in
> their own separate pages (without changing any
> conventions, of course). The ship naming convention
> has already been organized this way.

Good idea
--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com wrote:
>
> I don't think the ISP or proxy will have anything to do with it--Karen probably didn't change proxy settings or ISPs when she started using beta.wikipedia.com.

LOL That's true... the function worked perfectly in the normal
wikipedia, so something must have been coded differently in the new
version. It might have been fixed now - I'll give it another go and see.
Keep your fingers crossed!

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Caching proxies

body:
OK... it works now! I'm taken to a different random page of garbage each
time instead of the same one over and over again :)

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
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from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
Pierre Abbat wrote:
> Shortly before June 9, Jennifer uploaded pictures of dresses and wrote
> articles about dresses. She was asked to stop uploading them if she couldn't
> prove that they are public domain, and she apparently has left. The articles
> were edited to not use the pictures. Should the pictures be deleted? I
> already deleted cobbler.jpg, not realizing that she wrote articles, but it's
> still on beta.

This strikes me as a good idea, removing them I mean.

On Saturday, when Lee and I do the move to the new machine, we will re-copy the
image directories completely.  So don't worry about what's on beta.  Everything
on beta will go away early Saturday morning.


from_name: koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
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body:
Try it on the Pygmalion article.

For the markup there's an established Wiki convention of doing this for
numbered headings:

== # Heading text ===

The place in the hierarchy is determined by the number of = sane as
ordinary headings.
so:

== # Main ==
=== # sub 1 ===
=== # sub 2 ===

it's in use at meatball I think.
I think that's clearer and more consistent that using ! .

Fred Bauder wrote:

>At 10:13 PM 7/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>>The "Auto-number headings" use preferences does pretty much exactly
>>this, and it doesn't require the extra notation of "!"s or anything.
>>This has been in place since Magnus's software.
>>
>>
>
>Would someone, not necessarily Lee as he is rather busy with other things,
>please simply set out an example of this feature and what is done in
>editing to use it.
>
>Fred Bauder
>
>[Wikipedia-l]
>To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
>http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

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from_name: Pierre Abbat

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
Shortly before June 9, Jennifer uploaded pictures of dresses and wrote
articles about dresses. She was asked to stop uploading them if she couldn't
prove that they are public domain, and she apparently has left. The articles
were edited to not use the pictures. Should the pictures be deleted? I
already deleted cobbler.jpg, not realizing that she wrote articles, but it's
still on beta.

phma


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cologne Blue

body:
Neil Harris wrote:

> tarquin wrote:
>
>> Cologne Blue is really nice.
>> I have a few reservations about it though:
>> * it's a pity it doesn't include the Wikipedia logo
>> * It could be just habit, but I was lost in the sidebar. Lots of
>> Windows95-style "My Settings" and "My Page" etc. It took me ages to
>> find "diff". Like I said, that could be habit.
>> * lastly, and most importantly it's hard to read because it uses a
>> sans serif font. For encyclopedia articles with large blocks of text,
>> legibility is very important. I've just switched back to default
>> because I was finding it hard to focus, & my reading speed has
>> increased immediately.
>>
>> Overall, it's a super layout, much more welcoming & less
>> "techy"-feeling than the default.
>>
>> tarquin
>>
> It's a lovely layout, but it's missing some usability engineering. I
> agree that we should shift to something as well designed as this, but
> please let's not make it the default skin just yet.
>
> When we have server logs from the 'new' Wikipedia, we can consider
> doing some optimization, and then releasing a tuned version.
>
> Neil
>
It's all very nice, but most human users are creatures of habit.  There
comes a point in the face of rapid technological development when you
just don't want to learn any more.  When I went to Netscape 6, I
immediately switched the appearance back to the classic presentation.  I
also consistently use the File Manager from Dos 3.2.  Better looks do
not justify the loss of familiarity.
Eclecticology


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
On Tuesday 16 July 2002 16:40, koyaanisqatsi at nupedia.com wrote:
> Well, if Jennifer has not stated that the pics are in the clear legally,
> and if the articles no longer use them, I see two reasons not to have them.
>  My 2 cents.  I've seen the pics, BTW, and suspect that they are from a
> catalog online somewhere, but I was waiting to see what Jennifer had to say
> about it.

I'll delete them, then. I did a Google image search for cobbler.jpg and
didn't find it, though there are many other pictures with the same name.

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
On Tuesday 16 July 2002 15:55, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> This strikes me as a good idea, removing them I mean.
>
> On Saturday, when Lee and I do the move to the new machine, we will re-copy
> the image directories completely.  So don't worry about what's on beta.
> Everything on beta will go away early Saturday morning.

By "still on beta" I meant, of course, that if I had been wrong to delete the
file, there's a backup copy.

phma


from_name: Vicki Rosenzweig

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
At 11:40 PM 7/16/02 +0200, you wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> > She was asked to stop uploading them if she couldn't prove that they are
> > public domain, and she apparently has left.
>
>Without knowing the details, this sounds to me like the surest way to make
>people give up and leave the project. For a volunteer who invests a lot of
>energy in making a contribution, it is very easy to lose all that energy.
>
>Please consider this when you think people make mistakes in their
>voluntary contributions.  It is much more useful to inform them about ways
>they can improve their contribution, than telling them to stop doing what
>they are doing.  Open new doors instead of closing doors in their face.

If I recall correctly, she was asked where she'd gotten them, and did she have
permission to use them. If she did, well, it's less effort to type "I drew
these
myself" or "they're from a Sears catalog from 1902" than to upload all that
stuff
in the first place.

>If a copyright owner would complain (did this ever happen?), only Jimmy
>is at risk, so the rest of us really don't have to play police.  No, I'm
>not suggesting that we should pirate copy contents to the Wikipedia.  We
>should follow all the rules and laws that there are.  But don't play
>police if you aren't one.  And if you are, don't use excessive violence.
>Volunteer souls are fragile and cannot take much beating.

You mean like the way you've just lectured everyone without actually knowing
what we said or did? :-)
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
vr at redbird.org
http://www.redbird.org


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cologne Blue

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body:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
> The "Auto-number headings" use preferences does pretty much exactly
> this, and it doesn't require the extra notation of "!"s or anything.
> This has been in place since Magnus's software.

I didn't know this.  Can you show me some pages where it is used?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  tel +46-70-7891609
  http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] "Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe - Britany Spears Underground

body:
On Tuesday 16 July 2002 04:04 pm, you wrote:
> ?From the upload log:
>
> "Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe - Britany Spears Underground Nude
> Video"
>
> This is probably a _bad_thing_ -- some sysop should delete this ASAP. (I
> am not a sysop).
> We should also disable the download of anything with a .com or .exe file
> extension (and of course do the same in the beta test code).
>
> Neil

I tottally agree -- but instead of banning certain file extensions I say we
should think about only allowing certain ones. But at any rate, .exe and .zip
should /never/ be allowed to be uploaded.

Also, is there an efficient way for the software to check uploads, for
example, to see if in fact a file with an image extension is really an image
and not an exe or mp3 in disguise?

--maveric149


from_name: Brion VIBBER

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] "Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe - Britany
 Spears Underground

body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> I tottally agree -- but instead of banning certain file extensions I say we
> should think about only allowing certain ones. But at any rate, .exe and .zip
> should /never/ be allowed to be uploaded.
>
> Also, is there an efficient way for the software to check uploads, for
> example, to see if in fact a file with an image extension is really an image
> and not an exe or mp3 in disguise?

A quick shell out to the "file" command should answer that nicely.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Resend: "Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe - Britany Spears Underground Nude Video"

body:
On Tuesday 16 July 2002 18:51, Neil Harris wrote:
>  From the upload log:
>
> "Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe - Britany Spears Underground Nude
> Video"

Speared and buried under ground. I don't see any telltale marks of wormhood
with a strings check, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

phma


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Geographic naming conventions

body:
> I asked this question in the naming conventions area, but nobody replied,
> so I'm hoping somebody can come up with a response here.
>
> When we're referring to places that begin with Saint, Mount, Fort, etc., do
> we spell the whole word out? ?We have instances of [[Saint Louis,
> Missouri]] and [[St. Paul, Minnesota]], if I remember correctly.
>
> Zoe

Hum - There is an unwritten naming convention in wikipedia for Christian
saints to have the word "saint" proceed the person's name. So for the saint
example I would tend not to use the spelled out word for geographic places
such as cities.

However, I do often see places such as St. Louis and St. Paul with "saint"
spelled out. Same for the other examples. I therefore would be hesitant on
establishing a specific naming convention on this (I don't think you were
suggesting this though).

But, if we go with widest useage with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity
(which /is/ a central part of our naming conventions) then the abbreviated
saint, mount and even fort will probably win the day in almost every case.
Just do a Google search to compare. I would suggest not using a period after
the appreciation --- we have been working hard on obliterating them from
acronyms and I don't see a need to have them for abbreviations either.

--maveric149


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] "Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe -
    Britany Spears Underground

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body:
Actually, after some discussion (on wikitech-l, I think it was) I made the
numbering more flexible: There need to be different headings in the article
for this to work, a single kind won't do. That is because some people
decided to use headings for large fonts and nothing else :-(

And it has to be turned on in your preferences, of course.

For testing, try [[Signal transduction]].

Magnus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com]On Behalf Of lcrocker at nupedia.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:13 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at nupedia.com
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Numbered section headings within an article
>
>
>
> >> This has been in place since Magnus's software.
> >
> >I didn't know this.  Can you show me some pages where it is used?
>
> Any page--it's a user choice, not an author choice.  I'm open to the
> possibility of making it an author choice (I like the == # ==
> syntax), but for now you either get it on every page or none based on
> your preferences, and it follows the normal heading tags.
> 0


body:
Maybe this helps: My *original* intention for the numbering was not only
making the article more structured (in a way), but enabeling:
1. A short table of contents generated automatically from the headings, to
be displayed at the beginning of the article, with links directly to the
matching piece of text (and "UP" links there)
2. Based on this (the headings then would be marked with <a name="1.2.3">),
linking to [[topix#subtopic]].
But, then I didn't know wether to link to the heading itself (a lot of
typing, and the heading could change), or to the heading *number* (like
[[topic#1.1]]), which can change as well.
I refused to think any more about this issue, and wrote some other
half-working special page instead;)

Magnus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com]On Behalf Of lcrocker at nupedia.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 9:19 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at nupedia.com
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Numbered section headings within an article
>
>
> > Actually, after some discussion (on wikitech-l, I think it was)
> > I made the numbering more flexible: There need to be different
> > headings in the article for this to work, a single kind won't do.
> > That is because some people decided to use headings for large
> > fonts and nothing else :-(
>
> Ah, that's what that piece of code is for.  This function is one I
> stole directly from you without rewriting it, mainly because I wasn't
> sure what it was doing.
>
> I don't think that's the right thing to do--code that accomodates
> misuse encourages misuse.  Just like "defensive" coding--by hiding
> errors instead of highlighting them, you produce more.  If people are
> using headings for things other than headings, or not using them in
> good nesting order, then they /should/ get bad results so that
> they'll have to fix it, or so that someone who sees the bad result
> will fix it.
>
> I think I do, however, like having it under user control, but I'm not
> sure about that.  I'd like to hear other opinions on whether or not
> the author should be able to force the numbering or supress it.
> 0


body:
Just think about the fun of implementing orphaned/Most Wanted headings! :-]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com
> [mailto:wikipedia-l-admin at nupedia.com]On Behalf Of lcrocker at nupedia.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 9:46 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at nupedia.com
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Numbered section headings within an article
>
>
> > Maybe this helps: My *original* intention for the numbering was
> > not only making the article more structured (in a way), but
> > enabeling:
> > 1. A short table of contents generated automatically from the
> > headings, to be displayed at the beginning of the article, with
> > links directly to the matching piece of text (and "UP" links there)
> > 2. Based on this (the headings then would be marked with <a
> > name="1.2.3">), linking to [[topix#subtopic]].
> > But, then I didn't know wether to link to the heading itself (a
> > lot of typing, and the heading could change), or to the heading
> > *number* (like [[topic#1.1]]), which can change as well.
>
> That's another thing to think about.  BTW, I implemented page
> fragment links (e.g., [[Chemistry#history]], which links to
> [[##history]] on the Chemistry page), though I haven't made much
> noise about it because I'm still not sure they're needed--for one
> thing, they encourage long pages, and I don't like my syntax.  But
> headings do seem like a natural match there.
>
> 0


body:
On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Magnus Manske wrote:
> For testing, try [[Signal transduction]].

Excellent!  I didn't know this existed.

However, there is a difference between my suggestion and this
implementation, and it isn't the numbering of the headings.  Rather, it is
the table-of-contents or "article outline" that my suggest includes at the
very top of the article.  This is something you can see at the top of
http://susning.nu/Schack and also in the user interface of
http://encarta.msn.com/ (try to search for Rome, and go to that article).

Stealing user interface ideas from Encarta is not a crime.  Or if it is,
claim you stole them from me instead.

Now, the need to switch the French, German, and other non-English
Wikipedias over to the new software got even stronger.  Please hurry.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  tel +46-70-7891609
  http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Auto-harvesting of dates

body:
It is very easy to write a regexp that will recognize and parse dates in
running text using formats like "July 14, 1789".  That kind of automatic
harvesting can be applied when a Wiki article is saved, and the dates
found can be indexed and easily searchable.

Was this alternative ever considered before the introduction of the
current Wikipedia custom of writing [[July 14]], [[1789]]?  Many people
have spent their time adding [[]] markup to any years and dates in
Wikipedia articles, and maintain the pages for dates and years.  This time
could have been saved if automatic harvesting and indexing had been used
instead.  (I am one of those persons.)

The current Wikipedia custom is an entrenched position, that would take
more energy to get out of than I dare think about.  However, it is just as
easy to write that regexp to recognize dates in formats like "[[July 14]],
[[1789]]" instead.

If you would like to test a function like this, visit
http://susning.nu/Carl_Wilhelm_Scheele
and click on this Swedish chemist's birth date "9 december 1742".

My regexps recognize "99 monthname 9999", "monthname 9999", "year 9999",
"born 9999", "died 9999", "9999-talet" (centuries and decades), which are
the most common ways to specify dates in Swedish text. Clicking on a date
leads to a search of adjacent dates found in other pages, chronologically
sorted.  Monthnames without day number are sorted before the 1st of that
month.  Years without months sort before January 1 of that year.  Decades
and centuries sort before the first year of the specified interval.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  tel +46-70-7891609
  http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/


subject: [Wikitech-l] Auto-harvesting of dates

body:
*** Sorry, that went to the wrong group. ***

Nice idea! Anyone remember the "auto-wikification" feature? This could be
one of its functions.

But, Lee is very cautious when it comes to software changing articles, and
he *does* have a point.

But, things like this could be on some kind of button, IMHO.

Magnus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikitech-l-admin at nupedia.com
> [mailto:wikitech-l-admin at nupedia.com]On Behalf Of Lars Aronsson
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 10:59 PM
> To: wikitech-l at nupedia.com
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] Auto-harvesting of dates
>
>
> It is very easy to write a regexp that will recognize and parse dates in
> running text using formats like "July 14, 1789".  That kind of automatic
> harvesting can be applied when a Wiki article is saved, and the dates
> found can be indexed and easily searchable.
>
> Was this alternative ever considered before the introduction of the
> current Wikipedia custom of writing [[July 14]], [[1789]]?  Many people
> have spent their time adding [[]] markup to any years and dates in
> Wikipedia articles, and maintain the pages for dates and years.  This time
> could have been saved if automatic harvesting and indexing had been used
> instead.  (I am one of those persons.)
>
> The current Wikipedia custom is an entrenched position, that would take
> more energy to get out of than I dare think about.  However, it is just as
> easy to write that regexp to recognize dates in formats like "[[July 14]],
> [[1789]]" instead.
>
> If you would like to test a function like this, visit
> http://susning.nu/Carl_Wilhelm_Scheele
> and click on this Swedish chemist's birth date "9 december 1742".
>
> My regexps recognize "99 monthname 9999", "monthname 9999", "year 9999",
> "born 9999", "died 9999", "9999-talet" (centuries and decades), which are
> the most common ways to specify dates in Swedish text. Clicking on a date
> leads to a search of adjacent dates found in other pages, chronologically
> sorted.  Monthnames without day number are sorted before the 1st of that
> month.  Years without months sort before January 1 of that year.  Decades
> and centuries sort before the first year of the specified interval.
>
>
> --
>   Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
>   tel +46-70-7891609
>   http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at ross.bomis.com
> http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Pierre Abbat wrote:

> She was asked to stop uploading them if she couldn't prove that they are
> public domain, and she apparently has left.

Without knowing the details, this sounds to me like the surest way to make
people give up and leave the project. For a volunteer who invests a lot of
energy in making a contribution, it is very easy to lose all that energy.

Please consider this when you think people make mistakes in their
voluntary contributions.  It is much more useful to inform them about ways
they can improve their contribution, than telling them to stop doing what
they are doing.  Open new doors instead of closing doors in their face.

If a copyright owner would complain (did this ever happen?), only Jimmy
is at risk, so the rest of us really don't have to play police.  No, I'm
not suggesting that we should pirate copy contents to the Wikipedia.  We
should follow all the rules and laws that there are.  But don't play
police if you aren't one.  And if you are, don't use excessive violence.
Volunteer souls are fragile and cannot take much beating.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  tel +46-70-7891609
  http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/


from_name: Neil Harris

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Resend: "Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe - Britany Spears Underground
 Nude Video"

body:
 From the upload log:

"Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe - Britany Spears Underground Nude
Video"

This is probably a _bad_thing_ -- some sysop should delete this ASAP. (I
am not a sysop).
We should also disable the download of anything with a .com or .exe file
extension (and of course do the same in the beta test code).

Neil


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cologne Blue

body:
Cologne Blue is really nice.
I have a few reservations about it though:
* it's a pity it doesn't include the Wikipedia logo
* It could be just habit, but I was lost in the sidebar. Lots of
Windows95-style "My Settings" and "My Page" etc. It took me ages to find
"diff". Like I said, that could be habit.
* lastly, and most importantly it's hard to read because it uses a sans
serif font. For encyclopedia articles with large blocks of text,
legibility is very important. I've just switched back to default because
I was finding it hard to focus, & my reading speed has increased
immediately.

Overall, it's a super layout, much more welcoming & less "techy"-feeling
than the default.

tarquin

Magnus Manske wrote:

>Let me hear some opinions.
>
>Magnus
>
>[Wikipedia-l]
>To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
>http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Cologne Blue

body:
tarquin wrote:

> Cologne Blue is really nice.
> I have a few reservations about it though:
> * it's a pity it doesn't include the Wikipedia logo
> * It could be just habit, but I was lost in the sidebar. Lots of
> Windows95-style "My Settings" and "My Page" etc. It took me ages to
> find "diff". Like I said, that could be habit.
> * lastly, and most importantly it's hard to read because it uses a
> sans serif font. For encyclopedia articles with large blocks of text,
> legibility is very important. I've just switched back to default
> because I was finding it hard to focus, & my reading speed has
> increased immediately.
>
> Overall, it's a super layout, much more welcoming & less
> "techy"-feeling than the default.
>
> tarquin
>
It's a lovely layout, but it's missing some usability engineering. I
agree that we should shift to something as well designed as this, but
please let's not make it the default skin just yet.

When we have server logs from the 'new' Wikipedia, we can consider doing
some optimisation, and then releasing a tuned version.

Neil


subject: [Wikitech-l] Suggested new Cologne blue sidebar ordering

body:
  I've re-ordered the Cologne blue sidebar to try and make it a bit more
ergonomic, with no real rationale, just a feel for what I do, and a
guess at the expectations of new users. The general principles are:

* rule of 3s
* most used categories at the top
* most frequent choices in those categories at the top
* don't repeat any options

...and I've moved some things into different categories: Recent Changes
into EDIT, for example, as it is mostly used when editing...

I'm not saying this is the best that can be done: I just want to kick
off a discussion of the options.

FIND
[search box] OK

BROWSE
Main Page
Random page
Current events

EDIT
Edit this page
Recent changes
Editing help

THIS PAGE
Talk page
Printable version
Watch this page

CONTEXT
What links here
Watch links

MY PAGES
My page
My watch list
My Preferences
Log out

SPECIAL PAGES
New pages
Image list
Statistics
Bug reports
more...

<http://beta.wikipedia.com/w/wiki.phtml?title=Kermit_the_Frog&action=history>


from_name: Stephen Gilbert

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Photo rquest page sugestion

body:
That's a great idea. We don't need anything special,
just a regular page in the Wikipedia: namespace. If no
one has started it yet (and if I can contact the
server), I'll set one up.

-- Stephen Gilbert

--- Imran Ghory <ImranG at btinternet.com> wrote:
> Maybe wikipedia should have a "request a
> photo/picture" page,
> where people can put requests for photos to
> accompany articles.
> Especially when dealing with
> monuments/buildings/objects in
> museum.
>
> Considering that Wikipedians are fairly widely
> spread around the
> world, it should be fairly easy to get photographs
> from a wide range
> of places.
>
> With historical artifacts often the only photographs
> that are
> publically available are copyright to the museums
> (for instance I
> was trying to find a photo of the ancient board game
> "Royal Game
> of Ur" to use in an article, but the only ones I
> could trace were all
> copyright to the British Museum who own several of
> the few boards
> to have survived).
>
> Imran
> --
> TheOpenCD Project
> Promoting Open Source on Windows
> http://www.theopencd.org
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go
> here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
Lars Aronsson wrote:
> If a copyright owner would complain (did this ever happen?), only Jimmy
> is at risk,

In one sense, this is true.  But in another sense _the project_ is at risk.

Realistically speaking, the odds of anyone trying to make a big deal
out of anything that we are doing is very remote.  From a legal
standpoint, as an ISP, I'm only required to "takedown" material put up
by users upon a formal complaint from a copyright holder.  Of course
I would do that in a heartbeat -- we're not here to fight the Napster fight,
that's for sure!

But other than direct legal action, there are other serious risks of
taking too lax an attitude about copyright violations.  We purport to
relicense the content under the GNU FDL.  Without some reasonable
assurances that our content is legitimately unencumbered, it will be
difficult for others to take our content and redistribute it in other
media.

Nonetheless, I most certainly echo Lars' sentiment that being gentle to
newcomers is important to the wiki way.  We're a community of love and
co-operation, not controversy and fighting.

--Jimbo


subject: [Wikitech-l] meta.wikipedia.com overloaded

body:
Imran Ghory wrote:
 > The mySQL server appears to have too many connections, and the
 > resulting page full of error messages isn't to pleasant. I don't know
[...]

Incidentally, the meta server is running a _very_ old version of the
code, which lacks such features as:

* restriction of uploads and minor edits to logged-in users
* protection against arbitrary JavaScript inserted into HTML code in
articles
* protection against arbitrary PHP code being run from the upload
directory (in apache configuration)
* use of /wiki/foo links instead of/addition to /wiki.phtml?title=foo
(needs apache configuaration)

Perhaps at some point this should be upgraded? (The database will need
some munging, see updSchema.php)

Also, the upload directory contains a bunch of files of questionable
value (see http://meta.wikipedia.com/wiki.phtml?title=special:upload ;
roughly everything from "rox.bmp" through "SORRY GIRLS.jpg" and some
more later on mixed in with legitimate files such as flags and Wikipedia
paraphernalia).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Lars Aronsson wrote:
>
>>If a copyright owner would complain (did this ever happen?), only Jimmy
>>is at risk,
>>
>
>In one sense, this is true.  But in another sense the project is at risk.
>
>Realistically speaking, the odds of anyone trying to make a big deal
>out of anything that we are doing is very remote.  From a legal
>standpoint, as an ISP, I'm only required to "takedown" material put up
>by users upon a formal complaint from a copyright holder.  Of course
>I would do that in a heartbeat -- we're not here to fight the Napster fight,
>that's for sure!
>
>But other than direct legal action, there are other serious risks of
>taking too lax an attitude about copyright violations.  We purport to
>relicense the content under the GNU FDL.  Without some reasonable
>assurances that our content is legitimately unencumbered, it will be
>difficult for others to take our content and redistribute it in other
>media.
>
>Nonetheless, I most certainly echo Lars' sentiment that being gentle to
>newcomers is important to the wiki way.  We're a community of love and
>co-operation, not controversy and fighting.
>
>--Jimbo
>
I clearly side with Lars and Jimmy on this one.  Copyright law, with so
many big corporations and institutions trying to protect their turf has
become something that goes beyond understanding unless you have
specialized legal training.  The only ones that can afford that are
those same big corporations and institutions that are also able to apply
economies of scale. If more than one country is involved the situation
is even worse.

We also encounter sites on the net where the site owner has made a
dubious claim.  The Republican claim to copyright for the 1911
encyclopaedia is a case in point.  (The pop-up that I get every time
asking to join the Republican anti-terrorism campaign at least suggests
that they have a big hand in it.)  Just because someone says that
something is copyright, doesn't mean that is.

Just yesterday I was looking at a site put up by the University of
Illinois that included a series of drawings for identifying insects; the
pages included a copyright statement.  The site in turn credited the
drawings to an unnamed project that was carried on with WPA sponsorship.
 That means the project and the drawings date to the 1930's - obviously
after 1923.  Then I ask myself were WPA projects covered by policies for
U.S. government publications?.  If not, who really did make the
drawings?  WPA projects were Roosevelt's make work projects for escaping
the depression, so that the participants were likely not thinking about
copyright.  If the participants did have the copyright, did they renew
them after 28 years?  How were the rights transferred to the U of I?
 The questions keep coming, and trying to answer each can be a major
project in itself.

We had another situation recently where a member wanted to upload
Sudanese music representative of the different regions of that country.
 The comment was quite rightly made that there are performance rights on
top of composition rights.  Were the performances made in Sudan?  What
is Sudan's copyright law?  No country is obliged to recognize
intellectual property rights greater than those granted in a person's
home country.

My approach to copyright is to first use common sense, make reasonable
inquiries, and give the benefit of the doubt to including the material
while recognizing the author's moral right to be given credit for his
work no matter how old it is. The "better safe than sorry" approach that
avoids all risk, is a recipe for accomplishing nothing.  Once due
diligence has been applied, a policy of "It's easier to get forgiveness
than permission" makes good sense.  Willingness of the ISP to take down
offending material on receipt of proper notice will protect him legally.
 A reputation for reasonable (rather than absolute) diligence should
satisfy our users about the copyright safety of the material.

Checking a box to say that one has the right to upload an image can only
be done to the best of one's knowledge.  I suspect, in the particular
case of Jennifer, that she was incautious and probably na?ve to the ways
of copyright.  That likely describes many newbies, especially young ones.

Eclecticology


body:
Maybe wikipedia should have a "request a photo/picture" page,
where people can put requests for photos to accompany articles.
Especially when dealing with monuments/buildings/objects in
museum.

Considering that Wikipedians are fairly widely spread around the
world, it should be fairly easy to get photographs from a wide range
of places.

With historical artifacts often the only photographs that are
publically available are copyright to the museums (for instance I
was trying to find a photo of the ancient board game "Royal Game
of Ur" to use in an article, but the only ones I could trace were all
copyright to the British Museum who own several of the few boards
to have survived).

Imran
--
TheOpenCD Project
Promoting Open Source on Windows
http://www.theopencd.org


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

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body:
Stephen Gilbert wrote:
> That's a great idea. We don't need anything special,
> just a regular page in the Wikipedia: namespace. If no
> one has started it yet (and if I can contact the
> server), I'll set one up.

I've started such a page at [[Wikipedia:Requested pictures]]; if
desired, rewrite the intro to taste.

http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Wikipedia%3ARequested_pictures

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: The Cunctator

body:
On 7/17/02 1:30 PM, "Brion VIBBER" <brion at pobox.com> wrote:

>
> Perhaps at some point this should be upgraded? (The database will need
> some munging, see updSchema.php)
>
Meta should just be integrated into the main Wikipedia as its own namespace,
with an option to include/restrict meta RecentChanges from the main
RecentChanges page.


from_name: Imran Ghory

body:
The mySQL server appears to have too many connections, and the
resulting page full of error messages isn't to pleasant. I don't know
if this is fixed in the newcode, but I think if it isn't we should have
some standard "error page" and just include the details in the
source of the HTML.

(I've included a copy of the page that was generated at
<http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran/wiki/wikimeta.htm>)

Imran
--
TheOpenCD Project
Promoting Open Source on Windows
http://www.theopencd.org


subject: [Wikitech-l] Site down

body:
On 17 Jul 2002, at 13:53, Magnus Manske wrote:

> www.wikipedia.com gives me
>
> Warning: Too many connections in
> /home/wiki-newest/work-http/databaseFunctions.php on line 11 Could not
> connect to MySQL server:
>
> Why that? Did this ever happen before?

The sites been unresponsive for the last hour or so, but it's only
started giving that error in the last ten minutes.

Imran
--
TheOpenCD Project
Promoting Open Source on Windows
http://www.theopencd.org


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Site down

body:
www.wikipedia.com gives me

Warning: Too many connections in /home/wiki-newest/work-http/databaseFunctions.php
on line 11
Could not connect to MySQL server:

Why that? Did this ever happen before?

________________________________________
Online Fotoalben - jetzt kostenlos bei http://www.ePost.de


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] meta.wikipedia.com overloaded

body:
On 7/17/02 1:33 PM, "Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at epost.de> wrote:

> I thought we already had this discussion, and concluded that if the meta
> becomes part of the English wikipedia, it wouldn't be neutral anymore (or
> something like that;)
>
That was mentioned, but it's certainly not much of a conclusion. By the same
logic, the wikipedia: namespace shouldn't be part of the English wikipedia.

The benefits to having it integrated are greater than having it separate.

I'm pretty sure the only real reason it hasn't been integrated is because it
would be something of a pain to do.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
The only authority is your individual conscience.  This is your community.

> Are we wikipedians citizens or
> policemen?  Are sysops policemen?  If I suspect that another user is
> breaking the law, should I report that to you or should I take action
> against the abuser?  Speaking for myself, I have no interest whatsoever to
> play the role of a police.

Maybe wikipedians are both, maybe wikipedians are neither.  I suspect that
the analogy is a bit too stretched for us to communicate well using it.

What I'd say is that if you see someone violating copyrights, and you feel
like doing something about it, then do so, and I will support you.  If you
don't feel like doing something about it, then don't, and I'll support that,
too.  It's your right to let it go on.

My wish and hope, though, is that we all do a little bit of the "dirty work".
It's hard to tell an eager newcomer not to upload copyrighted materials.  It's
hard to do it in a way that's nice.  So anyone who doesn't feel up to it, can
feel free to do something else instead.

> When I was new to Wikipedia, I remember it was very hard to understand who
> was in charge, giving orders, and who was just giving their personal
> opinion.  If somebody tells me I "shouldn't" do this or that, I like to
> know the authority of that statement.

Sure.  The interesting thing about Wikipedia, though, is that there's
very little "in charge" and there's very little "giving orders".  No one
has much power over others.

HOWEVER, having said that, we are here together with an agreed upon vision:
to write an encyclopedia for the widest possible distribution.  This vision
gives us a shared context, and some "rules" follow directly from that.

--Jimbo


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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Beta site back online.

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from_name: Krzysztof P. Jasiutowicz

body:
On 17-07-2002, Stephen Gilbert wrote thusly :

I proposed something like that a few months ago but the idea wasn't
taken up by the community. Specificaly I was referring to
Antonio Gaudi's works and Wikipedians from Catalonia.
This idea should be publicized on Intl-Wikipedia mailing list.

Of course I second that proposal. Grab your digital cameras and
set out for your hometown. Wikipedia needs your digital pictures !

Regards,
kpj.

> That's a great idea. We don't need anything special,
> just a regular page in the Wikipedia: namespace. If no
> one has started it yet (and if I can contact the
> server), I'll set one up.
> > Maybe wikipedia should have a "request a
> > photo/picture" page,
> > where people can put requests for photos to
> > accompany articles.
> > Especially when dealing with
> > monuments/buildings/objects in
> > museum.
> > Considering that Wikipedians are fairly widely
> > spread around the
> > world, it should be fairly easy to get photographs
> > from a wide range
> > of places.
> > With historical artifacts often the only photographs
> > that are
> > publically available are copyright to the museums
> > (for instance I
> > was trying to find a photo of the ancient board game
> > "Royal Game
> > of Ur" to use in an article, but the only ones I
> > could trace were all
> > copyright to the British Museum who own several of
> > the few boards
> > to have survived).


body:
--- Karen AKA Kajikit <kaji at labyrinth.net.au> wrote:
> Ummm, WHAT public domain resources page? I've never
> seen it or thought
> to look for it... maybe it should be linked from the
> front page of the
> Wikipedia and/or from the photo upload pages to
> enhance its visibility?

It's already linked from the front page, Karen. ;-)

-- Stephen Gilbert

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


body:
I thought we already had this discussion, and concluded that if the meta
becomes part of the English wikipedia, it wouldn't be neutral anymore (or
something like that;)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikitech-l-admin at nupedia.com
> [mailto:wikitech-l-admin at nupedia.com]On Behalf Of The Cunctator
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:55 PM
> To: wikitech-l at nupedia.com
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] meta.wikipedia.com overloaded
>
>
> On 7/17/02 1:30 PM, "Brion VIBBER" <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Perhaps at some point this should be upgraded? (The database will need
> > some munging, see updSchema.php)
> >
> Meta should just be integrated into the main Wikipedia as its own
> namespace,
> with an option to include/restrict meta RecentChanges from the main
> RecentChanges page.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at ross.bomis.com
> http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


body:
> By the same
> logic, the wikipedia: namespace shouldn't be part of the English
> wikipedia.

Each wikipedia will have its own wikipedia: namespace, in that language, for
that wikipedia. The idea is to have a separate "meta" for discussion that
concerns all the 'pedias, in English, as it is "the" Internet language (and
Jimbo's American;)

> The benefits to having it integrated are greater than having it separate.

Less maintenance, maybe.

> I'm pretty sure the only real reason it hasn't been integrated is
> because it
> would be something of a pain to do.

Not at all. Adding yet another namespace is easier than having another
script to maintain, even though it would share most stuff with the English
Wikipedia one. It would take, say, 5 minutes to set it up and test a new
namespace, and a script (or manual labor:) to move the contents.

But, the idea is to have a "neutral" discussion place for "where we go"
etc., incidentially in English.

Magnus


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Jennifer's dresses

body:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, Jimmy Wales wrote:
> But other than direct legal action, there are other serious risks of
> taking too lax an attitude about copyright violations.

Murder and theft are illegal, and there is something called "citizen's
arrest", but other than that, police work is left to the police, and a
citizen cannot sentence his neighbors to fines or confinement.  This is
your country, Jimmy, you be the law.  Are we wikipedians citizens or
policemen?  Are sysops policemen?  If I suspect that another user is
breaking the law, should I report that to you or should I take action
against the abuser?  Speaking for myself, I have no interest whatsoever to
play the role of a police.

When I was new to Wikipedia, I remember it was very hard to understand who
was in charge, giving orders, and who was just giving their personal
opinion.  If somebody tells me I "shouldn't" do this or that, I like to
know the authority of that statement.

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  tel +46-70-7891609
  http://aronsson.se/  http://elektrosmog.nu/  http://susning.nu/


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Upload page

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Simultaneous edits

body:
It is possible in the current software for two people to edit the same page,
and both to see their changes, and only one go into the database. This
happened with Artiodactyla; Josh Grosse deleted a few lines at the same time
that I added the new reference (which I have forgotten, assuming it was
recorded) and Moschidae. Is this possible with the new software?

Also, the current software first displays the article, then writes the new
timestamp, then writes the article. Does the new software use BEGIN ... END
to make sure that the timestamp cannot be updated without the article, nor
vice versa?

phma


from_name: Karen AKA Kajikit

body:
Imran Ghory wrote:
>
> Maybe wikipedia should have a "request a photo/picture" page,
> where people can put requests for photos to accompany articles.
> Especially when dealing with monuments/buildings/objects in
> museum.

What it also needs is a list of public domain image sources that people
can use to find copyright free images to upload. I was just looking at a
public site that I saw somebody else using and I'm sure there are a
thousand pics there that we could use... the problem is wading through
and finding them, and recognising them when you see them because most of
them are not labelled or categorised.

I found two public domain image sites yesterday:

http://GIMP-savvy.com/PHOTO-ARCHIVE/ (massive but largely uncatalogued
public domain library)

http://www.aquarius.geomar.de/omc/omc_intro.html (automatic public
domain map-generating program)

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org11-2.htm (US navy archive of
public domain ship photos)

I'm sure there are many more out there...

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
>
> > What it also needs is a list of public domain image sources that
> > people can use to find copyright free images to upload. I was just
> > looking at a public site that I saw somebody else using and I'm
> > sure there are a thousand pics there that we could use... the
> > problem is wading through and finding them, and recognising them
> > when you see them because most of them are not labelled or
> > categorised.
>
> >I found two public domain image sites yesterday:
> >http://GIMP-savvy.com/PHOTO-ARCHIVE/
>
> Already listed on our Public domain resources page.

Ummm, WHAT public domain resources page? I've never seen it or thought
to look for it... maybe it should be linked from the front page of the
Wikipedia and/or from the photo upload pages to enhance its visibility?

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
Here's another one for you. You might have this already (the images are
already in GIMP only unsorted), but somebody just posted it to a
newsgroup...

The US fish and Wildlife Service public image library

http://images.fws.gov/default.cfm?CFID=564662&CFTOKEN=48752372

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


body:
lcrocker at nupedia.com wrote:
>
> > Ummm, WHAT public domain resources page? I've never seen it or
> > thought to look for it... maybe it should be linked from the
> > front page of the Wikipedia and/or from the photo upload pages
> > to enhance its visibility?
>
> The Wiki page "Public domain resources", and there already is a link
> to it on the front page.
> 0

ok... I guess I just never noticed it. I see it now down the bottom.

But seriously maybe the image upload page should have a big warning at
the top of it 'Do not upload copyrighted images to the Wikipedia (insert
brief technical warning speil here) Public Domain images are available
here' Sure you have to tick the box but newbies don't know why.

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Another copyright question

body:
Julie Hofmann Kemp wrote:

>Hi all --
>
>Verlag Bautz, a German printing house, has a totally cool website, the
>"Kirchenlexicon."  It invites contributions, but is also clearly marked
>with a copyright (2001).  My question...are direct translations of
>entire articles, even when credited, fair use?  I'm pretty sure that
>they are not -- I know they wouldn't pass muster at the university copy
>center...
>
>
>Opinions?
>
>J Hofmann Kemp,
>
Generally they would retain their copyright, but the fact that they
invite contributions does open the question of who owns the copyright,
the site owner or the author.  Putting a copyright notice is not
essential to establishing a copyright.  That concept was taken from a
uniquely U.S. law, and I believe that the U. S. has since abandoned that
requirement.

Fair use would only apply when you are using something for personal or
research purposes.  Posting your translation to Wikipedia would not fall
in that category.

If you translate something, even illegally, that gives rise to a whole
new copyright, and if the owner of the original language work wants to
use your translation, he must have your permission.

One thing to keep in mind is that it the work that is copyright, not the
information in the work.  It does not matter that the copyrighted source
may be the only source for the information.  Rewriting the material in
your own words instead of translating it would not be a breach of
copyright.  The distinction between rewriting and translating could be a
matter of some considerable debate!

Eclecticology


from_name: Julie Hofmann Kemp

body:
Hi all --

Verlag Bautz, a German printing house, has a totally cool website, the
"Kirchenlexicon."  It invites contributions, but is also clearly marked
with a copyright (2001).  My question...are direct translations of
entire articles, even when credited, fair use?  I'm pretty sure that
they are not -- I know they wouldn't pass muster at the university copy
center...

Opinions?

J Hofmann Kemp, off for the summer


from_name: lcrocker at nupedia.com

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from_name: Toby Bartels

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Cologne Blue

body:
This is just me but ...
I hate Cologne Blue.

-- Toby Bartels
   toby+wikipedia-l at math.ucr.edu


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Numbered section headings within an article

body:
Presumably Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

>That's another thing to think about.  BTW, I implemented page
>fragment links (e.g., [[Chemistry#history]], which links to
>[[##history]] on the Chemistry page), though I haven't made much
>noise about it because I'm still not sure they're needed--for one
>thing, they encourage long pages, and I don't like my syntax.  But
>headings do seem like a natural match there.

This is great!  I've wanted this a few times lately.
I agree that the specifics of implementation are problematic.
Perhaps you could render [[##history]] as history,
with the option for [[##history|herstory]] as herstory?
That would make usage a bit more natural, from my point of view.

Also, you could force the URL to have the first letter captitalised,
for the same reason as in linking between articles.
Then [[Chemistry#history]] could render as
history,
while [[##History]] renders as History.
But the important thing is to have the feature at all.

-- Toby Bartels
   toby+wikipedia-l at math.ucr.edu


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Resend: "Upload of file BritanyUndergound.exe - Britany Spears Underground Nude Video"

body:
Given that they don't spell Britney's name correctly,
I'm guessing that this wasn't authorised ^_^.

-- Toby Bartels
   toby+wikipedia-l at math.ucr.edu


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Upload page

body:
Presumably Daniel Lee Crocker wrote:

>There is no longer a description field on the upload form--just
>a summary field for the upload, intended to describe the upload
>(which might be one of many revisions, for example), not the image
>itself.  There is now a whole page dedicated to each image for that
>purpose, and there's a link to it on the page that reports a
>successful upload, but I suppose it would probably be a good idea
>to put some more text reminding uploaders to actually put
>something there.

Given that each revision may be from a different source,
I think that it's entirely appropriate to have a Source field
in the information for the individual upload.
And encouraging people to think of the source is probably never a bad idea.

-- Toby Bartels
   toby+wikipedia-l at math.ucr.edu


body:
Stephen Gilbert wrote:
>
> --- Karen AKA Kajikit <kaji at labyrinth.net.au> wrote:
> > Ummm, WHAT public domain resources page? I've never
> > seen it or thought
> > to look for it... maybe it should be linked from the
> > front page of the
> > Wikipedia and/or from the photo upload pages to
> > enhance its visibility?
>
> It's already linked from the front page, Karen. ;-)

So I saw, once it was pointed out to me... I never looked at all the
fine print down there :)

Just an idea for the photo upload page. This might not be practical, but
since it's important to establish the source of each uploaded image
couldn't a box be added to the upload form where the person uploading
had to fill in the source of the image seperately instead of apending it
to the description?

Like this:
File - monarchbutterfly.jpg
Description - photograph of a monarch butterfly perched on a flower
Image source - US Parks and Wildlife public domain photo archive (or
Fred Nerk's photo collection or whatever)

Of course I know absolutely nothing about coding and that might be an
impossible task to do...

--

Karen AKA Kajikit

You can take the dragon out of Alfandra, but you can never take Alfandra
out of the dragon (or the Kitty)...

Come and visit my part of the web:
Kajikit's Corner: http://Kajikit.netfirms.com/
Aussie Support Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AussieSupport
Allergyfree Eating Recipe Swap:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allergyfree_Eating

Love and huggles to all!


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: page fragment links

body:
Kurt Jansson wrote:

>I don't like the idea. Having an index above the article is a good
>idea, but linking into an article is not. I makes the Wikipedia more
>static. Headings will change, articles will be completely rewritten with
>a new structure, and people shouldn't worry about it ("Hmm, I'll better
>leave it like it is, or xx links will be broken").

This is a good point.
For my purposes, I'd be happy if the functionality were limited to
links within a single article, which removes this problem.
Of course, if an article is a reasonable length,
then this functionality is only a convenience, not a necessity.
I would agree that we should hold off on this pending further discussion.

-- Toby Bartels
   toby+wikipedia-l at math.ucr.edu


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Trouble editing

body:
Is there some reason that I can't access and edit the naming conventions
page?  There's some outdated stuff there, and I would like to change
it...  Thanks!
 Jules


body:
I thought that it might be borderline, but, since the translator is
Helga J, I thought I'd ask around.  We've dealt in the past with huge
amounts of website copying and pasting, most of which has been found and
fixed (I think).  I this case, we are dealing with direct translations
of someone else's articles, which are under copyright.  The translations
are then posted in their entirety.  I'm also frankly not sure the
translations aren't merely google translations fixed slightly.

Any comments on how to proceed?

Jules


from_name: Fred Bauder

body:
It would be a very unusual fact packed article that would be fair use under
those circumstance.  The cool creative aspect of the articles is what is
covered by copyright and not subject to fair use.  Like a phone book is
covered by fair use...

>Hi all --
>
>Verlag Bautz, a German printing house, has a totally cool website, the
>"Kirchenlexicon."  It invites contributions, but is also clearly marked
>with a copyright (2001).  My question...are direct translations of
>entire articles, even when credited, fair use?  I'm pretty sure that
>they are not -- I know they wouldn't pass muster at the university copy
>center...
>
>
>Opinions?
>
>J Hofmann Kemp, off for the summer
>
>[Wikipedia-l]
>To manage your subscription to this list, please go here:
>http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Page fragment links

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] GPL Photos

body:
Imran Ghory wrote:
> Could someone who can read French have a look at the GPL
> Photo gallery at http://gnuart.net/, and add the categories to the
> photo resources page ?

Hmm, the images at that site are licensed under the GPL. Is that
sufficiently compatible with GFDL for our purposes? The conditions for
use says:

   All the artworks that you'll find on this site are under the GNU GPL
   license. As explained on our site http://GNUArt.org, you can freely
   download and distribute them as you will, solely under the following
   conditions:

   * The resulting work absolutely must be under the GNU GPL license.
   * For distribution, it must include a notice to that effect
     accompanied by a link to the site http://GNUArt.org.

(We can't necessarily _guarantee_ that there'll be a link to the
original site, though that can't be guaranteed by the GPL, either.
Nonetheless it's always a very good idea to include a credit and link
for the provenence of photos -- it's not only polite, it provides a
trail to follow in case someone later disputes the rights.)

Theoretically the same issue could come up with including, say, source
code from a GPL'd piece of software. If you just quote a portion of code
to critique or demonstrate something, that's fine under fair use in any
case, but if we're using the whole thing?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Page fragment links

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Page fragment links

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

>I'd be happy to disable this feature for now (and another
>undocumented feature I won't mention :-), but my first inclination is
>to leave it in and simply not document or encourage it.  That way,
>the only folks likely to use it are those who go out of their way to
>look for it because they really need it. And I /do/ think there are
>at least a few cases where its use is entirely appropriate.

Although I still think that this is a great idea,
I'm going to make a stronger (or more precise) statement than before
and say that it should *not* be implemented until we're certain how.
That is, until we've discussed the notation well enough
that we have a version that will at least be backwards compatible,
then we shouldn't allow any articles to be created with it.
We can start discussing this now, and if we decide by Saturday, fine.
Otherwise wait.

For an example of the sort of incompatibility that I mean,
recall my idea to render "[[##History]]" as "History"
(with generalisations like "[[##History|Herstory]]",
to be rendered as "Herstory").
It now renders as "", which is very different.
People will code "[[##History]]History",
which is not backwards compatible if we adopt my suggestion later.

-- Toby Bartels
   toby+wikipedia-l at math.ucr.edu


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Cologne Blue

body:
--- Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia-l at math.ucr.edu>
wrote:
> This is just me but ...
> I hate Cologne Blue.
>
 This is just me, but ...
I love Cologne Blue.

Perhaps you are scared of change. Perhaps you are a
Wikipedia fundamentalist. Perhaps you just don't like
Cologne Blue.

-- Stephen Gilbert

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


body:
My comment: remove them, and once again ask Helga not
to copy other people's articles under copyright.
*sigh*

-- Stephen Gilbert

--- Julie Hofmann Kemp <juleskemp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I thought that it might be borderline, but, since
> the translator is
> Helga J, I thought I'd ask around.  We've dealt in
> the past with huge
> amounts of website copying and pasting, most of
> which has been found and
> fixed (I think).  I this case, we are dealing with
> direct translations
> of someone else's articles, which are under
> copyright.  The translations
> are then posted in their entirety.  I'm also frankly
> not sure the
> translations aren't merely google translations fixed
> slightly.
>
> Any comments on how to proceed?
>
> Jules
>
> [Wikipedia-l]
> To manage your subscription to this list, please go
> here:
> http://www.nupedia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Cologne Blue

body:
Stephen Gilbert wrote:
> --- Toby Bartels <toby+wikipedia-l at math.ucr.edu> wrote:
>
>>This is just me but ...
>>I hate Cologne Blue.
>
>  This is just me, but ...
> I love Cologne Blue.
>
> Perhaps you are scared of change. Perhaps you are a
> Wikipedia fundamentalist. Perhaps you just don't like
> Cologne Blue.

The toolbar needs some reworking for maximum usability (someone recently
posted some suggestions for that in wikitech-l), but by and large I find
that my eyes are seared out by the ugliness of the old interface when I
visit Wikipedia from a computer where I'm not logged in with CB selected.

Those who prefer to sleep on cold stone floors, eat naught but cold
oatmeal, and spend two hours each morning flagellating themselves to
expiate the sins of their fellow Wikipedians are free to select the
classic skin.

Meanwhile, those of us who prefer that the site not scare away potential
contributors on their first visit by presenting only its bath-avoiding,
flea-infested, rib-protruding side, will continue to lobby for making CB
the default look.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [Wikipedia-l] GPL Photos

body:
--- Brion VIBBER <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
> Imran Ghory wrote:
> > Could someone who can read French have a look at
> the GPL
> > Photo gallery at http://gnuart.net/, and add the
> categories to the
> > photo resources page ?
>
> Hmm, the images at that site are licensed under the
> GPL. Is that
> sufficiently compatible with GFDL for our purposes?

I've wondered about that myself. Look at the FSF
license list
(http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html), and
find the "Licenses For Works Besides Software and
Documentation" near the bottom. It mentioned that the
GPL can be used for non-software works, but nothing
aout FDL compatibility.

Maybe Jimmy could contact the FSF and ask about it.

-- Stephen Gilbert

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] GPL Photos

body:
Stephen Gilbert wrote:
> --- Brion VIBBER <brion at pobox.com> wrote:
(http://gnuart.net/)
>>Hmm, the images at that site are licensed under the GPL. Is that
>>sufficiently compatible with GFDL for our purposes?
>
> I've wondered about that myself. Look at the FSF
> license list
> (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html), and
> find the "Licenses For Works Besides Software and
> Documentation" near the bottom. It mentioned that the
> GPL can be used for non-software works, but nothing
> aout FDL compatibility.
>
> Maybe Jimmy could contact the FSF and ask about it.

Not a bad idea...

Doing some googling, I notice that the folks working on 'WorldForge'
explicitly dual-licence artwork under both GFDL and GPL for use in both
documentation and software...

And, I found in a message from RMS on a Gnome development mailing list
(http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2002-January/msg00004.html):

 > > Hum, I see. Did you try to compile such a list of
 > > GFDL-compatible for merging Licences ? And of course this raises
 > > the important point: Are the GPL and LGPL themselves
 > > GFDL-compatible license ?
 >
 > They are not compatible with the GFDL.  That is why it is important
 > to release the documentation extracted from the source code doc
 > strings explicitly under the GFDL.

Straight from the horse's mouth; sounds grim.

I've sent an e-mail to the GNUArt folks asking if they have an opinion
on the matter... in the worst case, of course, we can contact the
individual photographers and negotiate a separate GFDL license if
they're willing. (Many of them have a contact e-mail address listed in
the gallery.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Trouble editing

body:
On Thursday 18 July 2002 04:31 pm, you wrote:
> Is there some reason that I can't access and edit the naming conventions
> page? ?There's some outdated stuff there, and I would like to change
> it... ?Thanks!
> ?Jules

--maveric149

Strange, I had the exact same problem while trying to edit the main page from
work (during a break of course ;P ). To get around the problem I first had to
unprotect the page and then edit it (which was a bit terrifying since I
didn't know if wikipedia would freeze again and result in an unprotected
front page when it came back online). Seems that as soon as I hit edit the
wikiware no longer saw that I was logged in as a sysop and flashed a
'protected page' message. This logging out behavior also occurs sometimes
when I access article history pages -- which is a pain when I need to block a
vandal.

The 'can't edit page' problem only occurs for me while using Internet
Explorer (I've only tried it with version 6). The same thing happened for me
at work (Windows 2000) and home (Windows XP). I have /not/ had this problem
with Konqueror or any other Linux browser (thankfully since that is where I
spend most of my wikipedia time). Also, both at home and work I am behind a
firewall. I'll try editing a protected page on Friday with Navigator at work
to see if the same problem occurs. Might have something to do with the way IE
handles cookies combined with some change to the software that has recently
been made.

--maveric149


body:
On Thursday 18 July 2002 04:31 pm, Eclecticology wrote:
> Rewriting the material in
> your own words instead of translating it would not be a breach of
> copyright.

I sure hope so -- I've been rewriting Los Alamos National Laboratory text for
the elements articles to circumvent their stupid copyright notice. Their
copyright notice states that material produced by them and displayed on their
website can only be used for non-commercial purposes and only if their
copyright notice is displayed on any copies. This agers me because everything
they do is mostly paid for by US federal tax dollars with much of the
remaining money comming from California state tax dollars via the UC Regents
(although CA state produced IP is /not/ in the public domain unless there is
an explicit statement to the fact -- which also angers me).

However, much of what LANL provides in their periodic table needs heavy
copyediting anyway, so I really don't care that much about having to take an
extra step or two (at least then the resulting wikipedia articles will be
that much more unique -- although rewriting is time consuming and has slowed
the conversion process).

--maveric149


subject: [Wikipedia-l] page fragment links (was: Re: Numbered section headings within an article)

body:
On Thursday 18 July 2002 04:31 pm, you wrote:
> It is also true that people will tend to write longer pages instead of
> splitting them up at a certain point.
>
> Please don't implement this "feature" (or better: please turn it off)
> before we have discussed enough about it. I think this could have
> consequences comparable to subpages, so we should think twice before
> using it.
>
> Kurt

Yes, I second this point. It is often a daunting task to chop up long
articles and their apparent "completeness" often discourages editing (or
even reading for that matter). A while back one wikipedian produced a mega
article on nuclear weapons and I have been meaning to chop it up into
digestible pieces ever since. Having the above function might very well
encourage longer articles.

--maveric149


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Trouble editing

body:
At 09:21 AM 7/19/02 +1000, Karen AKA Kajikit wrote:
>
>If you're using Netscape very long pages are too long to be edited... at
>least that's what I've found. There are quite a few pages that I can't
>add anything to. I think they're overflowing the buffer or something.

Yes, so let's identify those pages and do something about it. They take
forever to download and are hard to read anyway.  Ones I've noticed are
[[Palestine]] and [[famous battles]]. Both could easily be broken into
several parts, well not Palestine easily...but still ought to be.

Fred Bauder


subject: [Wikipedia-l] GPL Photos

body:
Could someone who can read French have a look at the GPL
Photo gallery at http://gnuart.net/, and add the categories to the
photo resources page ?

Imran
--
TheOpenCD Project
Promoting Open Source on Windows
http://www.theopencd.org


from_name: Kurt Jansson

body:
I changed the subject to "page fragment links", I hope that's the right
title for this technic (is it called "anchor setting"?).

> [...] though I haven't made much
> >noise about it because I'm still not sure they're needed--for one
> >thing, they encourage long pages, and I don't like my syntax.  But
> >headings do seem like a natural match there.
>
> This is great!  I've wanted this a few times lately.

Some people in the German Wikipedia have been requesting this lately,
too.

But I don't like the idea. Having an index above the article is a good
idea, but linking into an article is not. I makes the Wikipedia more
static. Headings will change, articles will be completely rewritten with
a new structure, and people shouldn't worry about it ("Hmm, I'll better
leave it like it is, or xx links will be broken").
It also makes the syntax more complicated. Too many pages are already a
mess because you need html for tables and pictures that are integrated
into the text. Please think about implementing about a wiki syntax
solution for this (there already is one for the tables)!

It is also true that people will tend to write longer pages instead of
splitting them up at a certain point.

Please don't implement this "feature" (or better: please turn it off)
before we have discussed enough about it. I think this could have
consequences comparable to subpages, so we should think twice before
using it.

Kurt


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Kurt Jansson wrote:

>>You can't translate Mien Kampfh into English and then claim that
>>you own it...
>>
>
>I hope "Mein Kampf" is not the most famous German book title - but maybe
>it is :-(
>
>Kurt
>
If somebody is so bored with life that he has to translate all of "Mein
Kampf" he's probably desperate for credit, and deserves all he can get.
 Under the general international rule of life + 50 it went into the
public domain on January 1, 1996.

Eclecticology


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Page fragment links

body:
> I'd be happy to disable this feature for now (and another
> undocumented feature I won't mention :-)

Oh come on :-)

> but my first inclination is
> to leave it in and simply not document or encourage it.  That way,
> the only folks likely to use it are those who go out of their way to
> look for it because they really need it. And I /do/ think there are
> at least a few cases where its use is entirely appropriate.

Which ones do you think of? Maybe links to nearly static pages, like
[[NPOV]].
But I think we don't have many articles of this kind, so maybe we can
handle this like we do now, by pointing the reader explicitely to the
heading.

The problem is that most people learn the wiki syntax by reading the
source code. (I just browsed the NPOV page and learned how to link to
meta :-)
So sooner or later it will get used :-(

Kurt


body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> If somebody is so bored with life that he has to translate all of
> "Mein Kampf" he's probably desperate for credit, and deserves all he
> can get. Under the general international rule of life + 50 it went
> into the public domain on January 1, 1996.

According to the Wikipedia article on the book, the copyright (owned by
the state of Bavaria) doesn't expire until December 31, 2015. Life plus
70 years? Or do the Brazilian clones figure into this? ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


body:
> You can't translate Mien Kampfh into English and then claim that
> you own it...

I hope "Mein Kampf" is not the most famous German book title - but maybe
it is :-(

Kurt