from_name: Harry Smith

subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocked IP list is inaccurate

body:
The blocked IP list in wikipedia is inaccurate.
The dates listed for blocks to expire are incorrect.
Meaning that they are not tied to the block mechanism.

An admin can block an IP address for a period of time
beyond the expiry date listed on the blocked IP page.

I am not familiar with the mechanism.  Does the block
page allow one to enter periods of time beyond a
single day (seems to be the default)?

Can one block for a period of time different then the
comment indicates?

Can one extend blocks without updating the comment.

Lance6Wins

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list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration

body:
Why does the Arbitration page list only one party to
arbitration issue.  It would seem that it should list
both (all) parties.  No?

Lance6Wins

__________________________________
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Multiple Accounts

body:
>From the arbitration policy page:
Arbitrators with multiple accounts on Wikipedia will
disclose the usernames of those accounts to the rest
of the committee, and to Jimbo Wales, but are not
required to disclose them publicly.

I am surprised....I have been told that folks are not
supposed to have more than one account on Wikipedia.
Yet this seems to indicate that having more than one
account is not unexpected.

Help.

Lance6Wins

__________________________________
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list: wikitech-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikitech-l] Tasks for newbie?

body:
Jeff Warnica wrote:

>Greets all. Id like to begin contributing, in a technical fashion to
>wikipedia, and this seems like the place to start.
>
>At heart, Im a sysadmin, but to start out (especially in isolation), the
>best way seems programming work on mediawiki. Be it squashing bugs, or
>implementing new features, Id like to help. Unfortunately, while Ive
>contributed some content, Im not overtly involved in wikipedia: thus I
>dont know if on Sourceforge bugs are really bugs, and RFE are wanted by
>more then one person - I don't want to waste anyones time by working on
>things that wouldnt be accepted. Thus, I ask: what would be some tasks
>that I could cut my teeth on?
>
Speaking as a non-technical person, it would be comforting to feel that
someone is patrolling the bug report pages on the various projects.
Much of what appears there may not be bugs at all, but what do the rest
of us know about that?  Sometimes it may just take reporting that it's
being looked at or letting us know what we were doing wrong.  If it's
reported that it's being looked at and is still there after a month,
then the fact that it's still being looked at needs to be noted with a
date again.  For some of us looking at that page is like watching the
hourglass icon during a download, and wondering, "Has the time come to
just re-boot?" :-)

Ec


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration

body:
The title of the arbitration is chosen by whoever makes the request. It
could probably be changed later by either one of the other parties or one of
the arbitrators to more clearly reflect the parties and issues involved, but
it is probably seen by the arbitrators as an arbitrary choice that the filer
of the initial complaint made.

However your point is well taken and perhaps some of the arbitrators will
begin editing that title a bit.

Fred

> From: Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:50:01 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration
>
> Why does the Arbitration page list only one party to
> arbitration issue.  It would seem that it should list
> both (all) parties.  No?
>
> Lance6Wins
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Claudio V

subject: [Wikitech-l] Favourite MySQL GUIs

body:
Hello,

I was wondering what MySQL graphical interfaces most
of you prefer to easily manipulate data from the
database.  I have tried MySQL Control Center and
Navicat but they are just not that great.  They have
some qualities in some aspects but also some
disadvantages in others.  I am not sure if this is a
bug or just the GUI?s fault but I can never cancel a
SQL query without having to end the process of the
whole program.

Does anyone have any recommendations of what would be
the best MySQL GUI?

Thanks,

Claudio

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca


subject: [WikiEN-l] Multiple Accounts

body:
Having several user accounts is acceptable for any user. Having a plethora
of accounts or using multiple accounts to vote more than once or otherwise
pile on to some issue is not.

Fred

> From: Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT)
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Multiple Accounts
>
>> From the arbitration policy page:
> Arbitrators with multiple accounts on Wikipedia will
> disclose the usernames of those accounts to the rest
> of the committee, and to Jimbo Wales, but are not
> required to disclose them publicly.
>
> I am surprised....I have been told that folks are not
> supposed to have more than one account on Wikipedia.
> Yet this seems to indicate that having more than one
> account is not unexpected.
>
> Help.
>
> Lance6Wins
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Membership fees proposal

body:
Erik Zachte wrote:
> On the other hand $500 to $1000 sounds ridiculously low for a company that
> wants to donate. We might offer to add their logo on a sponsor page, but
> that should start at no less than $10,000 IMO. If they want to be recognized
> as sponsors they should have made a real difference.

We had no idea for a price. That amount was suggested by Jimbo. We are
open to suggestions.

An interesting comparison would be this one : a french firm already
offered to host 3 or 4 of our servers for free. We will cite this firm
as a sponsor of Wikimedia on the website. How much does hosting 4
servers per year cost ?


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Multiple Accounts

body:
Multiple accounts, also known as "sockpuppets" are permitted but
discouraged. See [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppets]].

-Snowspinner

On Jul 30, 2004, at 12:57 PM, Harry Smith wrote:

>> From the arbitration policy page:
> Arbitrators with multiple accounts on Wikipedia will
> disclose the usernames of those accounts to the rest
> of the committee, and to Jimbo Wales, but are not
> required to disclose them publicly.
>
> I am surprised....I have been told that folks are not
> supposed to have more than one account on Wikipedia.
> Yet this seems to indicate that having more than one
> account is not unexpected.
>
> Help.
>
> Lance6Wins
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Arne Klempert wrote:
> Sorry, but I don't understand this discussion. People will become a
> member because they want to support fantastic projects and/or because
> they want to be part of a great global movement. IMHO this is more than
> enough - no need to add a - in proportion to this - very poor free mug.

In twenty years those mugs will be *gold* on ebay. Think of it as an
investment. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Arne Klempert wrote:
> Sorry, but I don't understand this discussion. People will become a
> member because they want to support fantastic projects and/or because
> they want to be part of a great global movement. IMHO this is more than
> enough - no need to add a - in proportion to this - very poor free mug.

In twenty years those mugs will be *gold* on ebay. Think of it as an
investment. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Arne Klempert wrote:
> Sorry, but I don't understand this discussion. People will become a
> member because they want to support fantastic projects and/or because
> they want to be part of a great global movement. IMHO this is more than
> enough - no need to add a - in proportion to this - very poor free mug.

In twenty years those mugs will be *gold* on ebay. Think of it as an
investment. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Arne Klempert wrote:
> Sorry, but I don't understand this discussion. People will become a
> member because they want to support fantastic projects and/or because
> they want to be part of a great global movement. IMHO this is more than
> enough - no need to add a - in proportion to this - very poor free mug.

In twenty years those mugs will be *gold* on ebay. Think of it as an
investment. ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: moink

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: send in the academics

body:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:37:55 +1000, Tim Starling
<ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Abe wrote:
> > "Academia" is the name for a huge institutionalized process of peer
> > review.  Wikipedia is peer review on steroids, so you'd think that
> > academics would be clamoring to contribute to Wikipedia, especially since
> > academia and Wikipedia both love free expression and open discourse.  The
> > difference is, academia is peer review with competition for prestige and
> > resources, and Wikipedia is not.
>
> I don't know what academia you're familiar with, but where I'm from, I'm
> told not to publish any source code for fear of losing competitive
> advantage, and to patent anything that looks potentially useful via the
> spin-off company. A spin-off company which doesn't do anything, it just
> owns patents and spends large amounts of money "maintaining" them.
> Publishing results is OK as long as everyone knows which fabulous
> world-class group produced them.
>
> This is primarily a result of IP protection and commercialisation being
> seen as important for our national interests, and therefore an important
> part of deciding how to allocate Federal research grants.
>

Abe's version is more prevalent in the humanities, while Tim's version
more accurately reflects the sciences, and in particular, engineering.

moink


subject: [Foundation-l] Poll about developer payment.

body:
Anthere wrote:

>Hello, we are writing to all active developers to survey views on
>development and how these might interact with a rewards system that
>has been proposed.
>
Not a good idea to limit responses to developers.  Perhaps the others
among us should have a slightly different version..

>In order to take such a decision, we need to determine whether the
>solution is potentially a good one, or not (both *technically* and
>*socially*). We also wish to explore alternative solutions to increasing
>performance and individual satisfaction.
>
>
>--------------------------------
>--------------------------------
>
>
>Are you, or have you been in the past, involved in development of
>MediaWiki or maintenance of the Wikimedia servers?
>
No

>If so, can you briefly indicate which specific activities you have
>done (maintenance of servers, performance improvement, development of
>features, debug, interface, "hotline" etc)
>
Not applicable

>Which tasks, if any, really ought to be done, but currently are not?
>
Single log-in

>Are there any tasks that you would like to get involved with but have
>not yet done so?
>
Nothing technical

>If so, what is preventing becoming more involved with those tasks?
>
Not applicable

>Is there anyone that you would like to be more involved with certain
>tasks? If so, which tasks?
>
I would not consider myself qualified to designate certain developers
for certain tasks.  We all know about the work that Tim and Brion are
doing well enough that we approach them with our problems.  Designating
more junior developers to deal with user problems at a first level could
give them valuable experience and exposure, while freeing up the time of
senior developers for more appropriate tasks.

>Did you find it easy to join the development team? Did you receive
>appropriate guidance to allow you to start helping? Do you feel it is
>easy now for newcomers to get involved?
>
Two years ago, Erik did ask me if I would be interested in learning
about the software. :-)     I suppose the offer is still open, but I
find plenty enough to do without getting into the development.

>If not, what do you think would help new developers to "get in"?
>
Give them something to do.  It doesn't have to be a complicated task.
Maybe with a line like, "There seems to be a little bug here, but I
haven't had the time deal with it.  Can you have a look?"  The most
effective way of discouraging volunteers is to have them standing around
with nothing to do.  How they handle these little tasks can be a measure
of their dependability.

>Was there anything in particular that you found helped you to join in?
>
Not applicable

>Are you proud of what you are currently doing?
>
Yes

>Do you feel your work is undervalued or under-recognized?
>
Of course. ;-)

>If you are now less involved with the development team than you were
>previously, what made you decrease your contribution there?
>
Although not a developer, I have been around for nearly 2.5 years.  In
that time I've shifted attention from Wikipedia to Wiktionary and
Wikisource, at least in part because of the disputatious atmosphere at
Wikipedia.

>What is the best reward for your good work, or what way would you prefer to be
>rewarded?
>
Being recognized without needing to ask for recognition.

>Do you think any of the following could help? Thinking only of
>technical considerations, please rate the following on this five point
>scale from A to B.
>
>A. Yes, I am convinced that could help a lot. I strongly support
>B. Yes, it might help eventually. I slightly support this
>C. I don't know if this will help. I neither support nor oppose this
>D. No, I think it will not be helpful. I am slightly opposed to this
>E. I am strongly opposed to this option, whether helpful or not
>
>1. Having paid staff (permanent, full or part time, for example a
>sysadmin). (Ie, paying someone for rather loosely defined activity)
>
D. I'm concerned about the effects on the social dynamics.

>2. A system of bounties or similar. For example, a one off contract
>for a specific task, such as the development of a feature.
>
C. There are times when this will be needed.  But clear parameters need
to be established first.  This should happen on a case by case basis.
Perhaps a person who works according to a paid contract should not be
eligible for a new contract until after a period of time that is double
the term of the contract.

>3. An award system : nomination of a "developer of the month" (for a special thank you
>time) with an explanation of why. This could be advertised on IRC with
>a paypal link on the fundraising page.
>
B.

>4. Another award system. For example, once a year, between one and three
>developers could receive an award of the "best developer of the year",
>possibly with a price [prize?] of hardware or of money, and thank you notes
>splashed everywhere.
>
B.  The reward here is freely given, and is not an expectation.

>5. A "get to know me more" system : A special "know more about our developers" page, where each developer may explain how he contributed to the project, add a paypal
>link, webpage link etc. This could be prominently linked to from the fundraising page.
>
B.

>6. Professional training to some of the developers if the Wikimedia Foundation could secure free or reduced price training.
>
A.

>7. Make our third global press releases oriented toward development issues, in order to attract new contributors for software and hardware issues. Focus on tech news site for promotion.
>
A. for the general question.  C. for the specific next release.

>8. A meet-up for developers to work together occasionally (in Germany perhaps, with round of beers paid by the foundation :-))
>
B. Can we afford to fly Brion and Tim to Germany.

>9. A big clean up of the development pages on Meta, and clearer paths
>to help new developers to "jump in".
>
A. Very important to be able to know what tasks you can give to newcomers.

>10. Nomination of "organiser(s)" whose role would be to clean up the
>list of tasks to do, clarify priorities, go around asking who could do
>that, attract volunteers etc...
>
A,

>11. Please add your own ideas below.
>
>
>Would you be interested to make a living directly or undirectly from Wikip?dia ?
>
That could be a fun job. :-)

>If the Board were to hire staff, what type of staff do you think would be most helpful?
>
Someone capable of taking a big-picture, production oriented view of the
1.0 project.  That job should expire once 1.0 has gone to press.  A
different person should do this for 2.0

>Do you think staff should be hired internally or externally? (ie, someone already volunteering, or someone who is not a participant)
>
Mostly internally but with some notable exceptions.  An outider would
probably be more suited for a software audit, because his views have not
been narrowed by regularly working with the software.

>If the Foundation were hiring, would you consider applying for a
>development position?
>
No.

>How would you summarize your view on the proposed bounty system?
>Strongly support / support/ neutral/ opposed/ strongly opposed/ undecided.
>
Somewhat opposed

>If opposed, please briefly indicate why.
>
The effect on the social dynamics is too uncertain.

>If the Board decided to use a bounty system, would you try to get involved to get some of the bounties?
>
Not for software development.

>Do you feel your motivation level would be increased or decreased through the use of a bounty system?
>
Slightly increased.

>If you are opposed to a bounty system, would its implementation cause you to decrease your level of contribution?
>
No.  But I might be inclined to be more argumentative with the paid
developers.

>Please cite three tasks that you feel would be well suited to a bounty  system.
>
I'd have to think about this more before answering

>Given that we would roughly evaluate the number of hours for a task, how much do you think should be given for a bounty (ie, amount of money per hour)? Alternatively, how much would you suggest the Foundation should offer for the tasks you mentioned just above?
>
This is a mug's game.  It depends on such things as the cost of living
where the person resides.  Someone suggested that this was really a
tendering process.  In that people make sealed bids for the task to be
done.  The Board opens all of them when the bidding has closed and
decides on the basis of the offers.

>What do you think would be the largest benefit of implementing a bounty system?
>
The timely implementation of desired improvements.

>What do you think would be the largest harm caused by a bounty system?
>
Social disruption.

>Do you have your own pay pal account?
>
Yes.

>Would you be interested in having a little bio about you and your achievement on WMF site ?
>
No

>Would you be interested in having a link on the site whereby users could donate money to you via this account?
>
Sure, but I would be surprised if anything showed up. :-$

>Would you be interested in receiving professional training?
>
Yes - though I would probably limit myself to short topical programs.

>If developers were to be awarded special prizes by the Board, would you prefer to receive money or hardware?
>
Probably hardware.

>Are there any ways of improving organization that you feel you can commit yourself to right now? For example, cleaning up pages, writing documentation, coaching newbies, writing technical press releases, improving the bug tracking system, setting up a "tech news" reporting page, playing the pom pom girl?
>
As bureaucrat on two projects, I already do some of this, though there
is always more of this to be done than time for doing it.

There is no need to hire pom-pom girls for as long as Jimbo is the
member of the Board who is most suited to this task.

Ec


subject: [Wikitech-l] Outstanding patches?

body:
Hey you out there -- have you submitted bug fix patches that haven't
been applied yet? (I'm pretty sure there are a few.) I know that's awful
frustrating...

If so, please repost them here so we can get these committed or
corrected and move on to the next set of fun bugs. :)

If possible, do a 'cvs diff -u' against the current main CVS branch so
it can integrate cleanly. Mail often munges plaintext patches, so please
either attach a gzipped copy or just post a URL. (If there's a relevant
bug report on SourceForge, you can upload the file there.)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Angela_ wrote:

>mav wrote:
>
>
>>Going up each level should also mean the person gets more wampum (shirts, mugs,
>>etc)....
>>
>>
>
>This would require a change in the bylaws. Currently the only
>difference allowed between Volunteer Active members (who don't pay at
>all) and Contributing Active members is the entitlement to vote for
>the Contributing Member Representative in the next elections.
>
I don't think that this is accurate.  While specifying different voting
rights is a normal element in by-laws, making that an exclusive right
would be unusual.  If Mav's idea were to go ahead, I'm sure that we
could easily find ways around that kind of restrictions.  The proposal
distinguishes between levels of payment rather than whether or not there
should be a payment.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Arne Klempert wrote:

>On Friday, July 30, 2004 9:17 PM
>Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Isn't it possible to do with just a board member vote?  It's not
>>removing any benefits, just adding something like "those who
>>contribute at least $60 get a free mug".
>>
>>
>
>Sorry, but I don't understand this discussion. People will become a
>member because they want to support fantastic projects and/or because
>they want to be part of a great global movement. IMHO this is more than
>enough - no need to add a - in proportion to this - very poor free mug.
>
There's nothing wrong with mugs.  They're cheap advertising.  If you
have a visitor serve him coffee in the Wikipedia mug (preferably a
left-handed mug)  With a little luck he may ask about the logo on the
mug.  That will be your opportunity to talk about Wikipedia in the hopes
of snaring another addict.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Angela_ wrote:

>mav wrote:
>
>
>>Going up each level should also mean the person gets more wampum (shirts, mugs,
>>etc)....
>>
>>
>
>This would require a change in the bylaws. Currently the only
>difference allowed between Volunteer Active members (who don't pay at
>all) and Contributing Active members is the entitlement to vote for
>the Contributing Member Representative in the next elections.
>
>
Isn't it possible to do with just a board member vote?  It's not
removing any benefits, just adding something like "those who contribute
at least $60 get a free mug".  Legally the members would still have the
same status, as just Volunteer Active members or Contributing Active
members, except that we'd mail some people something and not mail other
people something.  Unless the bylaws explicitly prohibit giving people
things based on how much they contribute, it doesn't seem particularly
problematic (but, of course, IANAL).

-Mark


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


subject: [Wikitech-l] Some fun bugs

body:
Here are a few bugs that are really annoying, but look like localized
issues that wouldn't be that hard to fix if someone puts in a little time.

[ 584804 ] URL followed by punctuation->broken link
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=584804&group_id=34373&atid=411192

[ 800225 ] URL parsing doesn't match RFC 2396
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=800225&group_id=34373&atid=411192

[ 969913 ] unwatch takes user back to main page
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=969913&group_id=34373&atid=411192

[ 978664 ] Image autothumbs break some PNGs under IE6
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=978664&group_id=34373&atid=411192

[ 988485 ] Deleted talk page can't clear newtalk
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=988485&group_id=34373&atid=411192

[ 991457 ] "+" in filename generates an error
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=991457&group_id=34373&atid=411192

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration

body:
Fred,

I am glad that you appreciate the appearance or the
suggestion that the current page makes on those that
read it.

You you mind if I went through and changed to each
title to contain the parties...something like

George W Bush and John Kerry

The names can be added in alphabetically order for the
sake of non-discriminatory appearence.

Lance6Wins

--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> The title of the arbitration is chosen by whoever
> makes the request. It
> could probably be changed later by either one of the
> other parties or one of
> the arbitrators to more clearly reflect the parties
> and issues involved, but
> it is probably seen by the arbitrators as an
> arbitrary choice that the filer
> of the initial complaint made.
>
> However your point is well taken and perhaps some of
> the arbitrators will
> begin editing that title a bit.
>
> Fred
>
> > From: Harry Smith <lance6wins at yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:50:01 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration
> >
> > Why does the Arbitration page list only one party
> to
> > arbitration issue.  It would seem that it should
> list
> > both (all) parties.  No?
> >
> > Lance6Wins
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: sannse

body:
It's rather pedantic and irrelevant to the discussion, but Shipman isn't
denying anything any more - he's dead.

--sannse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Richards" <marich712000 at yahoo.com>
To: <wpmail at pcbartlett.com>; "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Viajero/Zero and Lance6 - POV terms

> Well, there comes a point where a fact is no longer
> disputed by any significant number of people. I don't
> know whether Harold Shipman still denies murder, but,
> if he admits it, then surely calling him a murderer is
> justified and NPOV. If he disputes it, then calling
> him a 'convicted murderer, a charge that he still
> denies' seems fair.
> Mark
>
> --- Pete/Pcb21 <pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Geoffrey Burling wrote:
> >
> > [Examples]
> > > *President Bush, alleged cocaine abuser
> > > *The CIA allegedly sold drugs in Los Angeles to
> > fund the Contras in Nicaraugua
> > > *Kenneth Lay, indicted for corporate fraud
> > > *Martha Stewart, convicted of insider trading
> >
> > > I think is a solution that would nicely fit with
> > the rules of NPOV.
> >
> > I thought that too. Interestingly though UK
> > broadcasting rules are more
> > relaxed about this.
> >
> > For instance, programmes do not have to say "Harold
> > Shipman, convicted
> > of mass murder,...". They can, and do, say "Mass
> > murderer Harold
> > Shipman...". Once someone has been convicted of X,
> > that person doesn't
> > appear to have recourse if someone calls them an
> > Xer.
> >
> > Is this a case where WP NPOV exacts a higher
> > standard than supposedly
> > neutral TV news programmes?
> >
> > Pete
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Vinny

subject: [Wikitech-l] Favourite MySQL GUIs

body:
> For me, phpmyadmin always did the job...

I'll second that. phpmyadmin is a terrific tool, and easy to use. The
SourceForge page is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/phpmyadmin/, and the
main page is at http://www.phpmyadmin.net/home_page/. You'll need Apache,
along with the PHP preprocessor, at http://httpd.apache.org/ and
http://www.php.net/, respectively.

-Vinny

----- Original Message -----
From: "Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at web.de>
To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Favourite MySQL GUIs

> Claudio V wrote:
>
> >Does anyone have any recommendations of what would be
> >the best MySQL GUI?
> >
> >
>

> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


from_name: Jeff Warnica

subject: [Wikitech-l] Tasks for newbie?

body:
Greets all. Id like to begin contributing, in a technical fashion to
wikipedia, and this seems like the place to start.

At heart, Im a sysadmin, but to start out (especially in isolation), the
best way seems programming work on mediawiki. Be it squashing bugs, or
implementing new features, Id like to help. Unfortunately, while Ive
contributed some content, Im not overtly involved in wikipedia: thus I
dont know if on Sourceforge bugs are really bugs, and RFE are wanted by
more then one person - I don't want to waste anyones time by working on
things that wouldnt be accepted. Thus, I ask: what would be some tasks
that I could cut my teeth on?


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: send in the academics

body:
Abe wrote:
> "Academia" is the name for a huge institutionalized process of peer
> review.  Wikipedia is peer review on steroids, so you'd think that
> academics would be clamoring to contribute to Wikipedia, especially since
> academia and Wikipedia both love free expression and open discourse.  The
> difference is, academia is peer review with competition for prestige and
> resources, and Wikipedia is not.

I don't know what academia you're familiar with, but where I'm from, I'm
told not to publish any source code for fear of losing competitive
advantage, and to patent anything that looks potentially useful via the
spin-off company. A spin-off company which doesn't do anything, it just
owns patents and spends large amounts of money "maintaining" them.
Publishing results is OK as long as everyone knows which fabulous
world-class group produced them.

This is primarily a result of IP protection and commercialisation being
seen as important for our national interests, and therefore an important
part of deciding how to allocate Federal research grants.

-- Tim Starling


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Arne Klempert wrote:
>
>> On Friday, July 30, 2004 9:17 PM
>> Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Isn't it possible to do with just a board member vote?  It's not
>>> removing any benefits, just adding something like "those who
>>> contribute at least $60 get a free mug".
>>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't understand this discussion. People will become a
>> member because they want to support fantastic projects and/or because
>> they want to be part of a great global movement. IMHO this is more than
>> enough - no need to add a - in proportion to this - very poor free mug.
>>
> There's nothing wrong with mugs.  They're cheap advertising.  If you
> have a visitor serve him coffee in the Wikipedia mug (preferably a
> left-handed mug)  With a little luck he may ask about the logo on the
> mug.  That will be your opportunity to talk about Wikipedia in the
> hopes of snaring another addict.

We could try to satisfy both concerns by making the mug (or whatever)
optional, which is a fairly common thing for non-profit membership
organizations to do.  Some people like the token "gifts" and take them,
but others can check a box saying "I'd rather not have it", thus saving
the foundation a bit of money.

-Mark


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Viajero/Zero and Lance6 - POV terms

body:
sannse wrote:
> It's rather pedantic and irrelevant to the discussion, but Shipman isn't
> denying anything any more - he's dead.

Yeah that's why I picked him, but maybe I shouldn't have - The point I
was trying to make was that the description would be allowed for
''anyone'' so convicted, whether they admitted it or not.

Thus the Birmingham Six were "killers" in the langugage of the media,
even though they strongly denied it.

After they were freed they were (definitely) "wrongly convicted", even
though there is a very remote chance they were rightly convicted.

Pete


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
It seems that the price should be set near the price of a decent
magazine subscription, which in the US would be around USD $30 a year.
That's how many public broadcasters in the US rationalize their
membership drives.

Since Wikipedia is global community, another funky idea is to have
market pricing, using the Economist Big Mac index.  Have folks donate
the equivalent of ten Big Macs.  Not only does this make it a more
"fun" calculation, it can showcase the global nature of the project
that as a "marketplace of knowledge", it is sensitive to global market
pricing.  This way, American, Polish, or Chinese users can take the
same "impact" on their wallets.

For the latest Big Mac index, see that chart at the bottom of:
http://www.economist.com/markets/bigmac/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2708584

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:58:32 +0100, Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark wrote:
> > I haven't followed most of the discussions, so this is just a first
> > impression, but a fee of $60 seemed a little bit steep...
>
> There is the option of paying less if you are an active user. The
> minimum is $6 for those who have edited for a certain length of time.
> We encourage people to pay $60 if they can afford it, but if they feel
> they can't, they can contribute anything between $6 and $60 according
> to their personal financial means.
>
> Angela.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Andrew Lih
andrew.lih at gmail.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
Anthere:
"An interesting comparison would be this one : a french firm already
offered to host 3 or 4 of our servers for free. We will cite this firm
as a sponsor of Wikimedia on the website. How much does hosting 4
servers per year cost ?"

First I withdraw the 'ridiculously", of course such a nice gesture should be
appreciated. My concern was that really large companies would get an almost
free ride. Now if we would publish below the logo what the exact
nature/amount of the gift is, that would help, as I'm sure e.g. IBM would
not want to be listed for $1000. If they wish we could print instead
"unspecified but considerable amount", or something like that, at the
discretion of the board, who can judge if the proposed gift is a worthy
proposition.


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration

body:
On Jul 30, 2004, at 4:23 PM, Harry Smith wrote:

> Fred,
>
> I am glad that you appreciate the appearance or the
> suggestion that the current page makes on those that
> read it.
>
> You you mind if I went through and changed to each
> title to contain the parties...something like
>
> George W Bush and John Kerry
>
> The names can be added in alphabetically order for the
> sake of non-discriminatory appearence.

I'd let the arbcom make the changes, personally - some of the cases
really don't involve the user who submitted the case, and are not in
any meaningful way about a personal conflict between the users, and I
don't think, in those cases, that it would be appropriate to add the
user who submitted the case. I think two usernames are really only
needed when some sort of counterclaim has been made, or when the
actions of the second username are also in some way under
consideration. Alternatively, if what has been referred is a dispute
between two users that was brought to the arbcom by a third party
(Something that happened with the case between VeryVerily and 172,
since withdrawn), the submitter would not be the right name to add.

My point being that naming of the cases should probably be left to the
arbitrators to decide, as they're the ones who get to determine the
scope of a given case.

-Snowspinner


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Favourite MySQL GUIs

body:
Claudio V wrote:

>Does anyone have any recommendations of what would be
>the best MySQL GUI?
>
>

For me, phpmyadmin always did the job...

Magnus


from_name: Vit Zvanovec

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: LanguageCs.php - reply to Timwi

body:
1. Wikipedie:Co je ?l?nek
> The page seems to have been deleted successfully by now.
No. You can look
http://cs.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Speci%C3%A1ln%C3%AD:Allpages&from=W
It is still there. Even I am sysop, I cannot delete it. In the short
pages it used to have no zero size (I cannot to check it now). In my view
the problem is bad namespace.

2. Book sources
I still don't understand how to change it in Czech wiki without changing
LanguageCs.php.

V?t Zv?novec


from_name: Austin Hair

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Request for new language Wikipedia: Lojban

body:
Despite the number of speakers, this must be the second- or third-most
influential conlang in existence today; I've often wondered why we don't
already have a lojban Wiki, given some of our other indulgences.  (*Cough*)

--
Austin D. Hair <austin at austinhair.org>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Callidus
http://www.austinhair.org/
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from_name: Timwi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: LanguageCs.php - reply to Timwi

body:
Vit Zvanovec wrote:

> 1. Wikipedie:Co je ?l?nek
>
>>The page seems to have been deleted successfully by now.
>
> No. You can look
> http://cs.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Speci%C3%A1ln%C3%AD:Allpages&from=W
> It is still there.

Right. Apparently there is an entry with the title "Wikipedie:Co je
?l?nek" in the article namespace, as opposed to one with the title "Co
je ?l?nek" in the "Wikipedie" namespace.

Someone with database write access - which I don't have - should be able
to fix this easily (Brion or Tim Starling for example). Of course, if I
had the relevant access, I would fix it myself.

Timwi


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
mav wrote:
> Going up each level should also mean the person gets more wampum (shirts, mugs,
> etc)....

This would require a change in the bylaws. Currently the only
difference allowed between Volunteer Active members (who don't pay at
all) and Contributing Active members is the entitlement to vote for
the Contributing Member Representative in the next elections.

Angela.


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


from_name: Bill Clark

subject: [Wikitech-l] Favourite MySQL GUIs

body:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:38:04 -0500, Vinny <compwiz24 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > For me, phpmyadmin always did the job...
>
> I'll second that. phpmyadmin is a terrific tool, and easy to use.

I'll..  umm.. third that?  phpmyadmin is ridiculously simple to
install... just untar the directory and move it into your document
root somewhere.  You'll need to edit the config.inc.php file to
reflect your login information, but other than that there's nothing to
it!

It even generates PHP code for you to stick into your scripts, if
you're too lazy / don't know mysql+PHP.

-Bill Clark


from_name: Fennec Foxen

subject: [WikiEN-l] Multiple Accounts

body:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:00:24 -0600, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
> Having several user accounts is acceptable for any user. Having a plethora
> of accounts or using multiple accounts to vote more than once or otherwise
> pile on to some issue is not.

Along these lines, multiple accounts are far more acceptable if you
admit to having them (the actual accounts, not the number).

--
You keep using that word...
I do not think it means what you think it means.


from_name: zero 0000

subject: [WikiEN-l] Arbitration versus Mediation

body:
> Why does the Arbitration page list only one party to
> arbitration issue.  It would seem that it should list
> both (all) parties.  No?

If there is a dispute between two or more editors, then this
is called a "Mediation" issue and is listed on
[[Wikipedia:Requests for Mediation]].  In the case of charges
against one editor, it goes on [[Wikipedia:Requests for Arbitration]].
The person or persons making the charges need not have been
involved in any direct disputation with the person they are
charging, but they might have been.  In your case, Viajero charged
you with repeated disservice to Wikipedia over many months and
I plan to support that charge with many examples when the
arbitrators decide to hear the case.

I notice you just added an example in [[Israeli West Bank barrier]]
where your edit summary "replace image with one agreed to in
talk on 26 Jul 2004" shows your lack of integrity since two
complementary images were agreed to after a long negotiation,
and you know that. Next stunt like that and I will block you again.

Zero.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


from_name: Geoff Burling

subject: [WikiEN-l] Viajero/Zero and Lance6 - POV terms

body:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Christopher Larberg wrote:

> You apparently misunderstood me. My comments were directed towards
> S. Vertigo and his tongue-in-cheek statements such as "Bush is a true
> patriot and a national treasure" and his implication that people who
> support Bush are attempting to inject such POV statements into the
> Wikipedia. My comments were in no way directed towards you.
> -Slowking Man

I see that now. I apologize for the misunderstanding, & for my harsh
words.

Geoff


from_name: Tom Randall

subject: [Wikitech-l] $1 Billion in Grants available

body:
I invite you to view the ForeignAID.com International Funding
Directory online at:
http://www.foreignaid.com/foundations

The ForeignAID.com International Funding Directory is a database of
over 700 foundations and donors in the U.S., Europe, and worldwide
that give over $1 Billion every year in grants and scholarships to
individuals and projects. Please tell me what you think.

Most Sincerely,
Tom Randall
http://www.foreignaid.com/foundations


from_name: Hacksprint

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Custom tags

body:
Tim Starling wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> Hacksprint wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately setHook isn't used anywhere so I have no example
>>> to work with and I don't know where the best place to insert the
>>> hook from.  Anyone have any hints I could use?
>>
>>
>>
>> We've got a couple of extensions in CVS:
>> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/wikipedia/extensions/
>>
>> EasyTimeline and WikiHiero are in use on Wikipedia so should be in a
>> reasonably working state.
>
>
> Just to add to that, MediaWiki extensions are switched on by including
> the PHP file from LocalSettings.php. When the file is included, it
> will register an extension function, and the extension function will
> be called back from Setup.php once the environment is fully
> initialised. Inside the extension function, you can do things like
> adding parser hooks and special pages.
>
> -- Tim Starling

I added "include_once( "extensions/rblog.php" );" to my LocalSettings.php

Is this adequate for a minimal extension?  I can't get it to do something
useful with the <rblog> tag.  Thanks

<?php

# Remote Blog extension
# To use, include this file from your LocalSettings.php
# To configure, set members of $wgRemoteBlogSettings after the inclusion

class RemoteBlogSettings {
        var $settings;
};
$wgRemoteBlogSettings = new RemoteBlogSettings;
$wgRemoteBlogSettings->settings="";

$wgExtensionFunctions[] = "wfRemoteBlogExtension";

function wfRemoteBlogExtension() {
        global $wgParser;
        $wgParser->setHook( "rblog", "ext_rblog_hook" );
}

function ext_rblog_hook( $rblog_src )
{
        return "Hello World" . $rblog_src;
}

?>


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Personal research grant collaboration request

body:
Chitu Okoli wrote:
> By this rule, I would think that "wikipedia" (small letters) should refer to
> any of various language wikipedias (e.g. de.wikipedia.org and
> zh.wikipedia.org), whereas "Wikipedia" (capitalized) should refer to the big
> mama that comprises all the daughter wikipedias (the Wikipedia should be
> www.wikipedia.org, though that link automatically points to the wikipedia at
> en.wikipedia.org, I guess because that one was the first, and is the largest
> and the most visited).

Wikipedia is a multilingual project which comprises *all* Wikipedias. If
you speak of "the" Wikipedia, you are including all language subprojects.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Chitu Okoli wrote:
> By this rule, I would think that "wikipedia" (small letters) should refer to
> any of various language wikipedias (e.g. de.wikipedia.org and
> zh.wikipedia.org), whereas "Wikipedia" (capitalized) should refer to the big
> mama that comprises all the daughter wikipedias (the Wikipedia should be
> www.wikipedia.org, though that link automatically points to the wikipedia at
> en.wikipedia.org, I guess because that one was the first, and is the largest
> and the most visited).

Wikipedia is a multilingual project which comprises *all* Wikipedias. If
you speak of "the" Wikipedia, you are including all language subprojects.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Chitu Okoli wrote:
> By this rule, I would think that "wikipedia" (small letters) should refer to
> any of various language wikipedias (e.g. de.wikipedia.org and
> zh.wikipedia.org), whereas "Wikipedia" (capitalized) should refer to the big
> mama that comprises all the daughter wikipedias (the Wikipedia should be
> www.wikipedia.org, though that link automatically points to the wikipedia at
> en.wikipedia.org, I guess because that one was the first, and is the largest
> and the most visited).

Wikipedia is a multilingual project which comprises *all* Wikipedias. If
you speak of "the" Wikipedia, you are including all language subprojects.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
Chitu Okoli wrote:
> By this rule, I would think that "wikipedia" (small letters) should refer to
> any of various language wikipedias (e.g. de.wikipedia.org and
> zh.wikipedia.org), whereas "Wikipedia" (capitalized) should refer to the big
> mama that comprises all the daughter wikipedias (the Wikipedia should be
> www.wikipedia.org, though that link automatically points to the wikipedia at
> en.wikipedia.org, I guess because that one was the first, and is the largest
> and the most visited).

Wikipedia is a multilingual project which comprises *all* Wikipedias. If
you speak of "the" Wikipedia, you are including all language subprojects.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Arne Klempert

subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
On Friday, July 30, 2004 9:17 PM
Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:

> Angela_ wrote:
>
>> mav wrote:
>>
>>> Going up each level should also mean the person gets more wampum
>>> (shirts, mugs, etc)....
>>
>> This would require a change in the bylaws. Currently the only
>> difference allowed between Volunteer Active members (who don't pay at
>> all) and Contributing Active members is the entitlement to vote for
>> the Contributing Member Representative in the next elections.
>>
> Isn't it possible to do with just a board member vote?  It's not
> removing any benefits, just adding something like "those who
> contribute at least $60 get a free mug".

Sorry, but I don't understand this discussion. People will become a
member because they want to support fantastic projects and/or because
they want to be part of a great global movement. IMHO this is more than
enough - no need to add a - in proportion to this - very poor free mug.

-Arne (akl)


subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


subject: [Wikitech-l] Task for newbie?

body:
If you or another reader on this board would want do some programming on an
interesting standalone job, there has been a discussion on another WikiMedia
board: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-July/date.html,
about the fundraising page, see http://wikimediafoundation.org/fundraising

I give a excerpt of the discusson below. If anyone with relevant experience
is interested, I suggest to contact Daniel Meyer, e.g. at maveric149 at
yahoo.com (who is primarily responsible for WikiMedia finances)

Erik Zachte

> Why not having a dynamic picture looking like:
>
>                   WikiPediaThon
>
>         0$        30k$                  100K$
> 	[OOOOoooooo......................]
>
> Where:
>   O is provision
>   o achieved
>   . still needed

Daniel Mayer:

"Because there is currently no easy way to update such a bar and no way at
all to have those updates in real time. We also need to figure out where the
goal line should be set (hint to board: we need an approved budget).

But that would be an awesome thing to have, yes.

We might want to consider putting a bounty on creating a bot that could do
that. The person creating it would have to be *very* trusted and their bot
code vetted for security purposes (since it would be using account names and
passwords to gather data). But I think it could be done."

----

Erik Zachte (paraphrased):

I would like to consider whether a volunteer might not be interested to do
this useful and interesting job. Bountry should be last resort.

----
Daniel again:

"I simply want results and I want them fast. Creating a process by which
donors get near instant feedback that their donation was counted and helped
push us toward a goal will generate many times the money any bounty would
cost.

I'm also not at all keen on trying to attempt to do this in anything but an
automated way (esp since it would be *me* that would be attempting to be a
bot)."

---

Erik:

in reaction on
"The person creating it would have to be *very* trusted and their bot code
vetted for security purposes."

I wonder, many developers write applications which will need to run in a
secured environment, so much so that they don't get access to the live
version themselves. They test it on a fake account. Standard practice. Yes,
an audit would be wise.


from_name: Pierre Abbat

body:
I would like to start a Wikipedia in Lojban. Attached is the language file,
which hopefully has enough translated to start the site. Please look it over
and let me know if any other strings need to be put into or translated in it.

Language data:
Name: Lojban
Family: Loglanic (constructed logical languages)
Speakers: at least 30, in various parts of the world, including at least 6
Wikipedians
Code: jbo

Two articles on the Lojban Wiki are ready to be copied to the Lojban
Wikipedia:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=gombesa
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=gambire
These are [[coelacanth]] and [[Uncaria]] respectively; the first article in
Lojban needs stuff translated from English, and the second in English needs a
taxobox.

Capitalization should be turned off in the Lojban Wikipedia, since first
letters of words are not normally capitalized in Lojban, as it is in the
Klingon Wikipedia, since 'q' and 'Q' are different letters, and in the Toki
Pona Wikipedia.

phma
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
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from_name: Chitu Okoli

body:
>> Referring to demographic survey of Wikipedians

> Would this be a study of only the English Wikipedia or also others?
> Maybe it is also interesting to find out of there are real differences
> between the Wikipedias besides the language.
> [[wikipedia:nl:gebruiker:walter]]

I see no reason why such a survey should be restricted to any one language
wikipedia, other than the practical issue of translation. And I don't think
it would be too hard to get collaborative translation projects going of the
master survey version, on a wikipedia-by-wikipedia basis.

By the way, off topic grammatical note on "Wikipedia" (capitalized) vs.
"wikipedia" (small letters): I understand that the standard English rule for
capitalizing things like this (I don't know how this works in other
languages) is that when you are referring to something of which there are
many instances, you should use small letters. However, if there is only one
such sample in the whole world/universe, you should capitalize it. For
instance, website uses small letters because there are millions of them, but
the Web is capitalized because there's only one World Wide Web. The Sun
should be capitalized (though it often is not, in practice) when referring
to [[Sol]], the star of the Solar System, but sun should be left in small
letters when referring to any generic star in any generic solar system.

By this rule, I would think that "wikipedia" (small letters) should refer to
any of various language wikipedias (e.g. de.wikipedia.org and
zh.wikipedia.org), whereas "Wikipedia" (capitalized) should refer to the big
mama that comprises all the daughter wikipedias (the Wikipedia should be
www.wikipedia.org, though that link automatically points to the wikipedia at
en.wikipedia.org, I guess because that one was the first, and is the largest
and the most visited).


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Foundation-l] Bounties, tenders, and the GNOME experience

body:
For those of you who haven't followed the discussion, GNOME is a highly
popular open source desktop suite. GNOME development is to some extent
coordinated by the GNOME Foundation, which has employed bounties to get
certain key development tasks done.

http://www.gnome.org/bounties/

This of course is of great interest with regard to our own thoughts about
doing something similar.

In order to qualify the success of the GNOME bounty system I contacted the
GNOME foundation and asked them for their opinion on whether the project
had been a success or failure, and how it affected the culture of the
GNOME development community. Their conclusions are almost entirely
positive and they want to repeat the bounty process, see attached reply by
Jonathan Blandford of Red Hat / GNOME Foundation.

Caveat lector: The system which I think should be used by the Wikimedia
Foundation is different. With GNOME's bounty system, you have potentially
the situation where two developers hack away on the same stuff, but only
one of them (who submits the code earlier) gets paid.

I think there should be an open call for tenders process, where a
technical-minded steering committee appointed or elected by the foundation
outlines certain key tasks, and the developers can name the conditions
under which they are willing to complete them (e.g. "I'll do this for free
by February next year", "I'll do this for a rate of $20/hour", "I'll do
this for $200 upon delivery of the code"). These competing tenders can
then be held up against one another, and the committee decides which one,
if any, to take up. Once they do so, there is a contract between the
Foundation and the developer, and there's no risk of competing work being
done at the same time.

In this system, those who allege that volunteer effort is good enough will
have the opportunity to prove this by negotiating voluntary agreements
over contracts with the steering committee. So payment is not given an
advantage over non-payment; both solutions are equally acceptable.
Similarly, this scheme gives both the foundation and the developers wiggle
room to settle on mutually acceptable terms, rather than giving one or the
other an advantage from the outset.

A wiki is perfect both for the negotiations and the collaborative writing
of the task specifications.

Because "bounty" carries strong connotations of competition rather than
cooperation, I would like us to stop using that word, at least when
referring to the proposal described above. Instead, it should be described
as a tender process.

Regards,

Erik

- - - - - - - -

From:    Jonathan Blandford <jrb at redhat dot com>
To:      Erik Moeller <moeller at scireview dot de>
Kopie:   <board at gnome dot org<

Hi Erik,

Sorry for the delay in answering your questions.  I'm hoping we can get
some of the administrators of the bounty system to comment, as they have
a better idea a lot of the details of the last round.  I'll try to fill
in a few gaps until they reply.

As you noticed, the bounties were modest in scope, and were pretty
successful.  It helped get several new hackers involved in GNOME, and
brought attention to integrating several modules.  It doesn't seem to
have modified GNOME's culture in any noticeable way, and contributed to
some neat code being written.  Even the bounties that weren't fully
filled had positive effects.

On the flip side, a few maintainers felt extra pressure to look at and
accept the bounty patches, which was to be expected.  Also, the bounty
program was intentionally very uncontroversial and small in scope[1].
We don't really know how well an expansion of the system to a larger
scope would be like.  We do plan to repeat the process soon on a similar
scale.

Thanks,
-Jonathan

[1] compared to the size of the rest of the project.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Bounties, tenders, and the GNOME experience


from_name: Walter Vermeir

body:
Chitu Okoli wrote:
>
> CHITU> I was thinking of something like a temporary link (perhaps for a week
> or two) on all pages (kind of like the fundraising banner) asking for
> participation in the survey. This link could link to an external Web survey
> host that I would manage directly, so that it would not need to expend any
> further Wikipedia/Wikimedia resources other than the links. Of course, the
> survey questionnaire itself would have to be fully approved by the Wikimedia
> Foundation. I was thinking of at least two different surveys--one for
> Wikipedia readers, available for every article page, and a second one for
> Wikipedia contributors, available only when they click "Edit this page".
> Just thoughts out load. Either way, I would only do what was approved by the
> Wikimedia Foundation.

Whould this be a study of only the English Wikipedia or also others?
Maybe it is also interesting to find out of there are real differences
between the Wikipedias besides the language.

--
[[wikipedia:nl:gebruiker:walter]]


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Poll about developer payment.

body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>> Hello, we are writing to all active developers to survey views on
>> development and how these might interact with a rewards system that
>> has been proposed.
>
> Not a good idea to limit responses to developers.  Perhaps the others
> among us should have a slightly different version..

Ec dear. As I said on meta on [[developer payment]], this is a several
steps process.

First, participate to the meta page discussions.
Second I ask developers what they think about it, with questions likely
to focus on them and their activity.
Third, I ask the rest of the community what they think about it as well,
with questions certainly different.

You are all welcome to give your opinion, I just **try** to organise
things a bit, so **I** am not **flooded** under information :-)

I will set aside your comments in any cases :-) Thanks


from_name: Delirium

body:
Chitu Okoli wrote:

>By the way, off topic grammatical note on "Wikipedia" (capitalized) vs.
>"wikipedia" (small letters): I understand that the standard English rule for
>capitalizing things like this (I don't know how this works in other
>languages) is that when you are referring to something of which there are
>many instances, you should use small letters. However, if there is only one
>such sample in the whole world/universe, you should capitalize it. For
>instance, website uses small letters because there are millions of them, but
>the Web is capitalized because there's only one World Wide Web. The Sun
>should be capitalized (though it often is not, in practice) when referring
>to [[Sol]], the star of the Solar System, but sun should be left in small
>letters when referring to any generic star in any generic solar system.
>
>
That's generally only the case with generic names like "website", not
with brand names.  For example, the Coca Cola company makes many
products which one would collectively refer to as "lots of different
types of Cokes", not as "lots of different types of cokes".

For what it's worth, I don't think it's necessary to capitalize
single-instance things either if they're fairly common and not proper
names.  I certainly rarely see "Web" capitalized these days, and doing
so looks a little bit mid-1990s (sort of like hyphenating "e-mail").

(But this is mostly a matter of opinion and taste, really, regardless of
what the style-guide-du-jour tries to claim is "correct".)

-Mark


body:
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> --- Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>It seems that the price should be set near the price of a decent
>>magazine subscription, which in the US would be around USD $30 a year.
>>That's how many public broadcasters in the US rationalize their
>>membership drives.
>
>
> We should have several different membership levels starting at $30 a year.
>
> One possible structure:
>
> $30 a year ($2.5/month): Standard
> $60 a year ($5/month): Silver
> $120 a year ($10/month): Gold
> $240 a year ($20/month): Platinum
> #240+ a year: Sustaining (yep, goes up a category)

Why not yes.

> And of course anybody who is active on any Wikimedia project could be a
> volunteer-level member by just signing-up (and maybe paying a nominal fee). A
> parallel discount fee structure should also exist (set it at 20% of the regular
> fee structure and reserve it for special cases - such as for nations where the
> cost of living is really low).

I hate to say this Mav, but I started the discussion about fees ONE
month ago on meta, asking for ideas and feedback. I made my proposal
based on what people offered me then, on meta, by mail, on irc.

I indicated I would draw a final proposal based on all that. I had no
feedback whatsoever at that point.

I then drafted that proposal and asked feedback again. There was very
little. About 10 people overall. No opposition. Essentially, comments on
the amount of fees, for which I guess discussion is totally possible.

I consequently closed the proposal.

I started doing the membership application form according to that proposal.

So...I see no problem with discussing the prices, but I definitly see a
problem in *entirely* rediscussing the entire organisation of a fee
structure already decided.

Couple of points :
* the volunteer member will NOT NOT NOT pay anything. This is not
negociable.
* there will not be country discount because this is too complicated
* there is already a discount fee system. With the discounted amount, no
side benefits such as mugs are planned.

> Going up each level should also mean the person gets more wampum (shirts, mugs,
> etc). We could reach out to various businesses to ask for wampum donations
> (discount cards, free gifts, etc). This may complicate the discount fee
> structure though. Either way getting the gifts may require a separate payment
> for shipping. It will also be some time before we could set up such a system.
>
> Just some ideas to chew on.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer

All discussions on side benefits are welcome and great.
And yes, they do not impair setting the structure as is.

ant


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Arne Klempert wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but I don't understand this discussion. People will become a
>> member because they want to support fantastic projects and/or because
>> they want to be part of a great global movement. IMHO this is more than
>> enough - no need to add a - in proportion to this - very poor free mug.
>
>
> In twenty years those mugs will be *gold* on ebay. Think of it as an
> investment. ;)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Correct.... we should think of adding something on all these items to
distinguish generation. We could have a mug with ''1 000 000 pages''
written below

Or "Wikip?dia, d?j? 10 ans"


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Multiple Accounts

body:
> I am surprised....I have been told that folks are not
> supposed to have more than one account on Wikipedia.
> Yet this seems to indicate that having more than one
> account is not unexpected.
>
> Help.
>
> Lance6Wins

ahma, there is no such policy forbidding to have several accounts.


body:
Ray Saintonge wrote:

>> Are there any ways of improving organization that you feel you can
>> commit yourself to right now? For example, cleaning up pages, writing
>> documentation, coaching newbies, writing technical press releases,
>> improving the bug tracking system, setting up a "tech news" reporting
>> page, playing the pom pom girl?
>>
> As bureaucrat on two projects, I already do some of this, though there
> is always more of this to be done than time for doing it.
>
> There is no need to hire pom-pom girls for as long as Jimbo is the
> member of the Board who is most suited to this task.
>
> E
> c

I just wanted to say that I read all your comments well, and it is very
insightful to compare your answers to those I already received ;-)

Guess what, no developers thought (or dared) comparing Jimbo to a pompom
girl. Hmmmm


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal

body:
--- Angela_ <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> mav wrote:
> > Going up each level should also mean the person gets more wampum (shirts,
> mugs, etc)....
>
> This would require a change in the bylaws. Currently the only
> difference allowed between Volunteer Active members (who don't pay at
> all) and Contributing Active members is the entitlement to vote for
> the Contributing Member Representative in the next elections.

Why in the world would it? Nothing I said would be contradictory to the bylaws
since they only speak of voting rights in this area. And everybody who
contributes $30 a year will be able to vote for contributing and volunteer reps
and volunteer members would be able to to vote for the volunteer rep. Nothing
has changed.

And by-laws, btw, are supposed to be skeletal. Therefore when they are silent
on an issue they do not preclude any action in that area. This is also beside
the fact that the bylaws have not even legal yet - the signatures of a majority
of the board are needed. Thus changes will be easy. That is, unless things have
changed from two months ago when Jimbo mentioned that.

--mav

__________________________________________________
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subject: [Foundation-l] Membership fees proposal


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Minority/majority question

body:
--- Gutza <gutza at moongate.ro> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope I'm posting this on the right list, don't know where else to
> turn. We have a minor dispute on the Romanian Wikipedia and I'd like to
> ask for your advice. The dispute refers to the naming of an article
> (would prefer not to specify which article, but it's a sensitive topic
> with people). Now, there are two spellings proposed for the article
> name: the one widely accepted in Romania and another one which is
> preferred by a Romanian minority.

On the English Wikipedia we go with what most people who speak English (our
readers) would expect to find (with caveats for ambiguity and offensiveness).
So placing the article you talk about where most Romanian speakers would expect
to find it in the Romanian Wikipedia makes a great deal of sense to me. But
caveats for ambiguity and offensiveness may apply.

An example from the English Wikipedia were common usage is overruled by
offensiveness: 'Eskimo' is a very common name for a people who live in the
North American Arctic. In fact it is probably the most common name for them (at
least in the U.S.). But they consider it to be highly offensive. Therefore our
article about them is at [[Inuit]] (a widely used alternate name - esp in
Canada).

-- mav

__________________________________
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from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: send in the academics

body:
He described these articles as read only.

Fred

> From: David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:18:08 +1000
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: send in the academics
>
> Andrew Lih (andrew.lih at gmail.com) [040731 12:18]:
>
>> Also, what Abe describes would likely be incompatible with the "no
>> original research" policy we've had for a while. Rather, Wikipedia
>> (and most encyclopedias) are secondary source works, not primary
>> battlegrounds for ideas.
>
>
> Not necessarily [[original research]]. What Abe seems to be describing
> (please correct me if I'm wrong) is doing something to create more quality
> work, to academic standards, that would then available under GFDL or a
> compatible license. That is, something to get the quality work produced.
>
> This need not necessarily be done on Wikipedia. I'm not sure what he
> describes would fit with the Wikipedia way of doing things, but that
> doesn't mean it isn't a very good idea to have happen somewhere. It's a
> project worth thinking about. If credit will get quality academics to
> contribute, then how do we get credit to work properly in a Wiki
> environment? That sort of thing.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [WikiEN-l] Blocking policy

body:
The arbitration dispute: [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/User:Guanaco
versus User:Lir]] has the potential to affect all Wikipedia administrators
(sysops). Please see the proposed decision at [[Wikipedia:Requests for
arbitration/User:Guanaco versus User:Lir/Proposed decision]]. It would
require any administrator who blocks a user to set forth at least a
reference to the section of [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy]] on which they rely
in order for the block to be presumed valid and not subject to immediate
reversal. Reasons like "troll", or "disruptive" would not be acceptable.

Please place comments on the talk page of [[Wikipedia:Requests for
arbitration/User:Guanaco versus User:Lir/Proposed decision]]

Fred


from_name: Austin Hair

body:
> An example from the English Wikipedia were common usage is overruled by
> offensiveness: 'Eskimo' is a very common name for a people who live in the
> North American Arctic. In fact it is probably the most common name for them (at
> least in the U.S.). But they consider it to be highly offensive. Therefore our
> article about them is at [[Inuit]] (a widely used alternate name - esp in
> Canada).

Unfortunately for this example, not all Eskimo are Inuit, and by and
large anthropologists still stick with the more accurate definition,
regardless of social stigma.  (Thankfully, Nelson Mandella hasn't been
re-styled an "African-American" on en yet.  I'm waiting for the day...)

> -- mav

--
Austin D. Hair <austin at austinhair.org>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Callidus
http://www.austinhair.org/


from_name: Dan Miller

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Minority/majority question

body:
It would seem to me that you go with whichever
spelling is used by a plurality of speakers of the
language.

Meelar

=====
There are more than 17,000 known Kennedys in Massachusetts alone, according to the Kennedy Tracking Center, which uses special collars equipped with GPS devices. Most of the Kennedys live on a large preserve set aside in the central part of the state, where they can roam and mate freely.
--Dave Barry

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from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Multiple Accounts

body:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:28:46 +0200, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ahma, there is no such policy forbidding to have several accounts.

As Ant said. There may be a misconception - multiple accounts does not
equal "sock puppetry."  Sock puppetry is trying to use multiple
accounts without full disclosure for an advantage - in consensus
building or in voting.

--
Andrew Lih
andrew.lih at gmail.com


from_name: Fennec Foxen

body:
> Wikipedia is a multilingual project which comprises *all* Wikipedias. If
> you speak of "the" Wikipedia, you are including all language subprojects.

As long as you don't call it (cough cough :) The W.

And it's definitely not WikiPedia, either.


from_name: Evan Prodromou

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: send in the academics

body:
Abe <arafi at umich.edu> said:

> How do you create a space where scholars can compete? Since the prizes in
> academia are relevance and prestige, and since relevance/presitge are
> measured by the number of people who are citing your work, Wikipedia could
>  allow users to cite scholarly works in articles, and track those
> citations competitively.

You're talking about Open Access journals. A good overview is here:

	http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/overview.htm

This is a good directory of Open Access journals:

	http://www.doaj.org/

I'm not convinced that Wikimedia stepping into this space is good for either
Wikimedia or academic journals.

~ESP
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from_name: Mister Bad

body:
Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> said:

 > We had one such issue on fr: recently about [[Action directe (...)]].

 > Some wanted to say "(terrorist group)", some "(left-extremist group)", and
 > some other "(armed group)" and the last "(revolutionary group)".
 > And any other combinations of the above.

 > The issue is not settled yet.

What about the very neutral "(group)"? Is it pretty much consensus that they are
a group? Is there another group named "Action directe" that needs to be
disambiguated from?

~ESP

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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: send in the academics

body:
Moink makes a good point.  I've been involved with both disciplines
(trained in engineering but doing research in media studies), which is
probably why I have unusual views on this.

However, I believe the proposal to get more academics involved goes
the wrong way - instead of modifying Wikipedia processes to be
attractive to the "academic methods", it should be the other way
around. Find ways to get traditional academic folks to contribute
using the "wisdom of crowds" method. One way might be to be able to
conveniently email a link to an article to someone, and say "This
article could use your expertise, could you help us out?" Academics
are not averse to contributing to encyclopedias - they are asked to do
so quite often.

Also, what Abe describes would likely be incompatible with the "no
original research" policy we've had for a while. Rather, Wikipedia
(and most encyclopedias) are secondary source works, not primary
battlegrounds for ideas.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:49:50 -0400, moink <theresa.robinson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:37:55 +1000, Tim Starling
> <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Abe wrote:
> > > "Academia" is the name for a huge institutionalized process of peer
> > > review.  Wikipedia is peer review on steroids, so you'd think that
> > > academics would be clamoring to contribute to Wikipedia, especially since
> > > academia and Wikipedia both love free expression and open discourse.  The
> > > difference is, academia is peer review with competition for prestige and
> > > resources, and Wikipedia is not.
> >
> > I don't know what academia you're familiar with, but where I'm from, I'm
> > told not to publish any source code for fear of losing competitive
> > advantage, and to patent anything that looks potentially useful via the
> > spin-off company. A spin-off company which doesn't do anything, it just
> > owns patents and spends large amounts of money "maintaining" them.
> > Publishing results is OK as long as everyone knows which fabulous
> > world-class group produced them.
> >
> > This is primarily a result of IP protection and commercialisation being
> > seen as important for our national interests, and therefore an important
> > part of deciding how to allocate Federal research grants.
> >
>
> Abe's version is more prevalent in the humanities, while Tim's version
> more accurately reflects the sciences, and in particular, engineering.
>
> moink
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Andrew Lih
andrew.lih at gmail.com


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Delirium wrote:

> Chitu Okoli wrote:
>
>> By the way, off topic grammatical note on "Wikipedia" (capitalized) vs.
>> "wikipedia" (small letters): I understand that the standard English
>> rule for
>> capitalizing things like this (I don't know how this works in other
>> languages) is that when you are referring to something of which there
>> are
>> many instances, you should use small letters. However, if there is
>> only one
>> such sample in the whole world/universe, you should capitalize it. For
>> instance, website uses small letters because there are millions of
>> them, but
>> the Web is capitalized because there's only one World Wide Web. The Sun
>> should be capitalized (though it often is not, in practice) when
>> referring
>> to [[Sol]], the star of the Solar System, but sun should be left in
>> small
>> letters when referring to any generic star in any generic solar system.
>
> That's generally only the case with generic names like "website", not
> with brand names.  For example, the Coca Cola company makes many
> products which one would collectively refer to as "lots of different
> types of Cokes", not as "lots of different types of cokes".
>
> For what it's worth, I don't think it's necessary to capitalize
> single-instance things either if they're fairly common and not proper
> names.  I certainly rarely see "Web" capitalized these days, and doing
> so looks a little bit mid-1990s (sort of like hyphenating "e-mail").
>
> (But this is mostly a matter of opinion and taste, really, regardless
> of what the style-guide-du-jour tries to claim is "correct".)

The piece of history that is innocently missing from Chitu's comments is
that we have had hot edit wars over capitalization.  Some might argue
that "Cokes" should always be capitalized when it refers to drinks so
that the uncapitalized version could continue to refer to coal.  Some of
the most heated arguments have been over whether all species names in
English should be capitalized.

Ec


body:
Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> said:

  > We had one such issue on fr: recently about [[Action directe (...)]].

  > Some wanted to say "(terrorist group)", some "(left-extremist group)", and
  > some other "(armed group)" and the last "(revolutionary group)".
  > And any other combinations of the above.

  > The issue is not settled yet.

What about the very neutral "(group)"? Is it pretty much consensus that they are
a group? Is there another group named "Action directe" that needs to be
disambiguated from?

~ESP

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body:
Anthere wrote:

> Chitu Okoli wrote:
>
>> By this rule, I would think that "wikipedia" (small letters) should
>> refer to
>> any of various language wikipedias (e.g. de.wikipedia.org and
>> zh.wikipedia.org), whereas "Wikipedia" (capitalized) should refer to
>> the big
>> mama that comprises all the daughter wikipedias (the Wikipedia should be
>> www.wikipedia.org, though that link automatically points to the
>> wikipedia at
>> en.wikipedia.org, I guess because that one was the first, and is the
>> largest
>> and the most visited).
>
> 2 years ago, it made sense to talk of the mother (the english) and the
> daughters (the other ones). But since some of the other ones are quite
> big now (as a reminder, de is now 100 00 pages) and have their own
> very well established rules, customs and community, I think that
> speaking of the big mother with a big W as being the reference of the
> concept, with the other ones being just sprouts is likely to be
> increasingly wrongly perceived.
>
> Just a sociological comment :-)

As any parent can tell, having children grow up gives us a strange
mixture of relief and regret. :-)

Ec


from_name: Yann Forget

body:
Hi,

Le Saturday 31 July 2004 05:58, Chitu Okoli a ?crit :
> >> Referring to demographic survey of Wikipedians
> >
> > Would this be a study of only the English Wikipedia or also others?
> > Maybe it is also interesting to find out of there are real differences
> > between the Wikipedias besides the language.
> > [[wikipedia:nl:gebruiker:walter]]
>
> I see no reason why such a survey should be restricted to any one language
> wikipedia, other than the practical issue of translation. And I don't think
> it would be too hard to get collaborative translation projects going of the
> master survey version, on a wikipedia-by-wikipedia basis.

I am following this and I think that your study could be very useful to
Wikipedia. And I would like to help with the French version.

Regards,
Yann

--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


body:
Chitu Okoli wrote:

> By this rule, I would think that "wikipedia" (small letters) should refer to
> any of various language wikipedias (e.g. de.wikipedia.org and
> zh.wikipedia.org), whereas "Wikipedia" (capitalized) should refer to the big
> mama that comprises all the daughter wikipedias (the Wikipedia should be
> www.wikipedia.org, though that link automatically points to the wikipedia at
> en.wikipedia.org, I guess because that one was the first, and is the largest
> and the most visited).

Wikipedia with a big W is the concept and the entirety of our project.
Not the english wikipedia only (note the small w).

2 years ago, it made sense to talk of the mother (the english) and the
daughters (the other ones). But since some of the other ones are quite
big now (as a reminder, de is now 100 00 pages) and have their own very
well established rules, customs and community, I think that speaking of
the big mother with a big W as being the reference of the concept, with
the other ones being just sprouts is likely to be increasingly wrongly
perceived.

Just a sociological comment :-)


body:
Evan Prodromou wrote:

> Yann Forget <yann at forget-me.net> said:
>
>  > We had one such issue on fr: recently about [[Action directe (...)]].
>
>  > Some wanted to say "(terrorist group)", some "(left-extremist
> group)", and
>  > some other "(armed group)" and the last "(revolutionary group)".
>  > And any other combinations of the above.
>
>  > The issue is not settled yet.
>
> What about the very neutral "(group)"? Is it pretty much consensus
> that they are
> a group? Is there another group named "Action directe" that needs to be
> disambiguated from?

"Militant" is always available. :-)

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia-Freenode relations

body:
You all know the IRC channel, no? #wikipedia on irc.freenode.net? And
its small army of related channels?
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_channels has the dirt.

Up until this point, our relationship with Freenode has largely been
ad hoc. Eloquence registered #wikipedia some time ago, and for a long
time that and the other channels were just managed as necessary.

However, Freenode also allows groups to set up an official contact
with Wikipedia. A few months ago, I took some initiative, filled out a
little form and answered a phone call and got designated as
Wikipedia's Group Contact with Freenode. (I wanted a .wikipedia
username cloak, and you needed a group contact to manage that, so...)
I've used this position mostly to give out similar IRC cloaks.

Recently, I used my group-contact status with Freenode to gain
temporary operator status to ban Michael and Lir, who had just joined
the channel to brag about their recent exploits on WP:RFA, and to stir
up ill will. Profanities were being thrown. About this time, Fire had
also set himself up as a contact, using the same credentials (some
sysop power, et cetera), and has undertaken to straighten out the
Wikipedia-related channels. In particular, he got added as a level-30
contact in #wikipedia, and added several people with ChanServ access
which would allow them to become operators.

 While this is useful, and the people added were trustworthy, this
brings up a salient point. We don't just want anyone- or even any
sysop- to be able to come on and reorganize the channel structure or
anything. I think it would be useful if the Board could appoint an
Official Freenode Liason to be the #1 group contact, and if we could
decide how we would like to have these sorts of affairs managed.

The contact has a few properties: he (or she) can contact Freenode
staff and ask for a change in ownership of a project-related channel,
for access to the channel, for temporary operator status, or anything
related to the projects' channels which he cannot do by himself.

Additionally, the contact is responsible for asking Freenode staff to
apply "cloaks" for the users' hostmasks. I have used this and page on
the English wikipedia to set up people with username "Foo" as
"Foo.wikipedia" on IRC. This provides a way to prove that you are who
you say you are on IRC. However, we are running into the problem of
language-related requests, and since we don't have a unified login,
there is room for confusion. At present I have reccomended to Fire
that we keep cloaks a per-language setting, and having
user.XX.wikipedia as a cloak, where XX is a language code, *except* if
the language is English, in which case it is not used (although we
could change this if desired).

There has also been talk about a Q: line for the Recent Changes bots'
nicknames. This would prevent someone using the <enrc> or
categorically similar nicknames without authorization.

I think that all of these issues could be best resolved if we had
official sanction for at least one #1 Head Honcho group contact, and a
good place to manage these affairs.

--
You keep using that word...
I do not think it means what you think it means.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikipedia-Freenode relations

body:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:39:25 -0400, Fennec Foxen <fennec at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it would be useful if the Board could appoint an
> Official Freenode Liason to be the #1 group contact, and if we could
> decide how we would like to have these sorts of affairs managed.

An addendum from lilo, the manager of Freenode and the Peer Directed
Projects Center:
<lilo> hi, you around?
<FennecFoxen> yes
<FennecFoxen> as a matter of fact
<FennecFoxen> I was just firing off a letter to the Wikimedia
foundation about IRC. :)
<lilo> tell me about the 'wikimedia board of trustees'
<lilo> ahhhh
<FennecFoxen> Okay. The Wikimedia Foundation owns and manages
Wikipedia and its sister projects.
<lilo> kay, perfect 8)
<lilo> may I offer suggestions?
<FennecFoxen> oh, sure.
<FennecFoxen> I've suggested that they appoint an Official Contact
<lilo> perfect
<FennecFoxen> rather then letting ad hoc contacts like myself manage
everything ad-hocly. :)
<FennecFoxen> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Trustees has
information on the board's composition...
<lilo> let them know that PDPC would prefer that, and that they can
delegate any specific aspects of contact in any way that they see fit,
and that PDPC would prefer an official contact, and that setting one
up does not in any way commit them to doing anything in particular
with their channels here :)
<FennecFoxen> okay. :)
<lilo> that's pretty much our take 8)
<lilo> I just got a message with some complaints about having Fire as
group contact
<lilo> and if you're reacting to those, I think you're doing exactly
the right thing
<FennecFoxen> yeah. Fire is well-meaning, but some consider him Annoying. :)
<lilo> from our standpoint, we just want to make sure that (1) your
board has control over your presence here, and (2) any users labeled
as being officially involved with your project are being labeled so
correctly
<FennecFoxen> but his credentials are just as valid as mine in this
matter, really. :)
<lilo> I'm going to tentatively mark Fire as 'withdrawn' and we can
leave that up to your board

He has also left me with an official phone number for contact in this matter. :)


from_name: Tim Pritlove

subject: [Wikitech-l] Favourite MySQL GUIs

body:
On Mac OS X, CocoaMySQL is a very useful tool:

	http://cocoamysql.sourceforge.net/

Greetings
Tim

On 30.07.2004, at 18:58, Claudio V wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was wondering what MySQL graphical interfaces most
> of you prefer to easily manipulate data from the
> database.  I have tried MySQL Control Center and
> Navicat but they are just not that great.  They have
> some qualities in some aspects but also some
> disadvantages in others.  I am not sure if this is a
> bug or just the GUI?s fault but I can never cancel a
> SQL query without having to end the process of the
> whole program.
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations of what would be
> the best MySQL GUI?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Claudio
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>

------
Tim Pritlove, Discordian Evangelist, Chaos Computer Club
<mailto:tim at ccc.de> <http://tim.geekheim.de/>
<aim:timpritlove> <jabber:tim at jabber.berlin.ccc.de>
Project Blinkenlights <http://www.blinkenlights.de/>
------
The Fifth Commandment:
A Discordian is Prohibited of Believing What he reads.


body:
Gutza wrote:

> Ok, I hoped I could avoid saying what this is about, but I should have
> seen the RO/HU assumptions coming -- and it's only natural. The
> article in question is the one about Jesus. The Romanian (Eastern)
> Orthodox Church says that the name should be spelled "Iisus Hristos".
> Other religions in Romania (mainly Catholic branches) say that the
> Romanian name is Isus Cristos.
>
> So now you know. It's not about Timisoara, and on a personal note I
> mildly resent the way you presented the analogy, as if Timisoara is
> natively spelled Temesv?r in the same way as Vienna is spelled "Wien";
> I honestly don't understand why you had to bring that into the
> discussion out of nowhere. But let's not get into this now, it would
> be a waste of our time.
>
> Anyhow, the dispute is basically not about the language itself,
> because all religions who dispute the name do it in Romanian. On a
> side note, to put your mind at ease before you assume it as being the
> case, no Magyars are involved in the dispute itself.

I'm glad that you've clearly identified.  I thought that your approach
in your approach in your first letter was needlessly evasive.
Personally, I was guessing something based on the speech differences
between Romanian and Moldovan, but now I realize that it has to do with
the Greeks and that there is no  imminent Eskimo uprising in Timisoara.
:-)   People do bring these issues out of nowhere when they are left to
guess about the problem.

Going with the majority (Google or otherwise) is never satisfactory.
That breeds the tyranny of the majority. In English these problems have
been numerous in relation to usages by the British and Americans.
French, Spanish and Portuguese also encounter differences between
European and New World versions.

I would be asking questions like:  How does the secular press deal with
the issue?  How was it dealt with in communist days? (Say what you might
about them, I can't imagine that an atheist organization would favour
one religion over the other.)  What does the Romanian Academy have to
say about the matter?  Is there such a thing as an "official" religion
in Romania?  I can see that the Orthodox version is based on a
transliteration from the Greek, but how did the other version come to be
what it is.  (Romanian, after all, is still a romance language.)  If
reviewing all these question does not give *clear* guidance, you should
accept both.  For each article where the question is relevant, the first
form introduced in that article should have precedence.

Ec