from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject: [Textbook-l] Executive inaction?

body:
On 23 Apr 2005 00:24:43 +0200, Manuel GR <mgrojo at ya.com> wrote:
> Probably Wikibooks needs more administrators or at least more active
> ones.

I think the main problem is that nobody is really interested in
Wikibooks. They just want to contribute to their own group of (no more
than) 5 books. Therefore, we also have no {{cleanup}}, low activity on
VfD, etc.


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Square brackets in template arguments and a big
	question

body:
On English Wikipedia, we use a template "copyvio".  It has an argument
"url" which is used to display a link to the original online article which
has been copied.
The text of {{copyvio}} is available at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Copyvio
An invocation failed for the URL
"http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-65428".
After some messing around we worked out that the problem was the embedded
square brackets.
I changed it to:

{{copyvio|url=http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd%5B347%5D=x-347-65428}}
Of course this kind of fix probably wouldn't be easy for the average
Wikimedia editor to do--and probably way beyond the capacity of 90% of all
Wikipedians.
Would this be easy to fix?  Am I missing something neat and lovely?


list: textbook-l

from_name: Manuel GR

subject: [Textbook-l] Executive inaction?

body:
El vie, 22-04-2005 a las 13:38, Tomer Chachamu escribi?:
> On 22/04/05, kelvSYC <kelvsyc at shaw.ca> wrote:
> > For some reason, I have the impression that important administrative
> > things take too long to do in Wikibooks.
> >
> > Is there something going on that I should be aware of, or is it that
> > Wikibooks really is way too undermanned in terms of people in positions
> > of authority?
>
> Undermanned overall. Definately.

Probably Wikibooks needs more administrators or at least more active
ones.


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] vandalism on wikipage 'Automated Transfer Vehicle'

body:
. said:
>
> Could you please ban user 68.165.99.171

Nyet.


from_name: Christiaan Briggs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Prudishness and censorship

body:
On 20 Apr 2005, at 5:03 pm, Rick wrote:

> I don't want to be forced to go to a link every time I want to see an
> image.  If there were some way to do it in the Preferences, then I
> have no problem at all.

Whatta ya think of
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/End-user_image_suppression


from_name: Erik Zachte

subject: [Textbook-l] Executive inaction?

body:
> I already put my name in the hat at [[Wikibooks:Requests for
> adminship]], but even then requests are backlogged six months.

Try post at a better visited mailing list like wikitech to draw attention to
it.

http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Erik Zachte


list: foundation-l

from_name: Sj

subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: 501(c)(3) status granted to Wikimedia
	Foundation

body:
On 4/23/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Angela a ?crit:
> > On 4/18/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Now, we'll have a scan of the letter posted online soon.
> >
> >
> > A scan of the original is available on the Foundation website at
> > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Image:501%28c%293_Letter.png
> >
> > Angela.
>
> It is also available on meta, and has been included in the board report
> (under work) for next quarto :
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WQ/3/En/3
>
> ant

Ahh, beat me to it :)  Any word on what kind of templates to send
donors?  A friend of mine at a local non-profit says they make an
effort to send a specific tax-friendly response to donors at the end
of each year.

SJ


list: wikimedia-l


from_name: Angela

subject: [Textbook-l] Executive inaction?

body:
On 4/23/05, Erik Zachte <epzachte at chello.nl> wrote:
> > I already put my name in the hat at [[Wikibooks:Requests for
> > adminship]], but even then requests are backlogged six months.
>
> Try post at a better visited mailing list like wikitech to draw attention to
> it.
>
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Please don't email wikitech-l with these requests since developers are
no longer involved in making admins.

The bureaucrats on the wiki (Tuf-Kat and Dysprosia) should be making
admins and <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Requests_for_adminship>
suggests contacting them on their talk pages when requests are made.
If they are not able to do so, it would be best for the Wikibooks
community to nominate some additional bureaucrats. Until that happens,
any steward can make admins if the existing bureaucrats are inactive.
Just leave a message at
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_permissions>.

Angela.


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [Wikitech-l] Remove Wikicode

body:
Graham-

> I'm planning on using the text of Wikipedia for research purposes but
> I would like to remove the Wikicode, leaving only plain text. Does
> anyone know of scripts or programs that do this automatically?

I advise against using this approach, since you effectively have to
parse the wikitext anyway. This especially applies to templates -- the
syntax {{Abc}} dynamically includes the text {{Template:Abc}} in the
page where it is used. Templates are extensively used on Wikipedia,
including some with parametrized name/value substitution, and if you use
the wikitext as a starting point, you will have to dynamically load and
process them yourself.

I recommend generating a static HTML dump instead and converting it to
plaintext, for which there are a number of tools (notably lynx -dump).
There is a basic static HTML dumper in the current CVS version of
MediaWiki: maintenance/dumpHTML.php - see Tim Starling's mailing list
post on it:
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-April/028741.html

All best,

Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Chinese Wikinews: board action required

body:
Anthere:
> I am undecided as well about closing or not closing fr. There is one
> contributor to it. What worries me is that he is not a wikipedian, and
> seems to have strange ideas about npov. I tried to discuss it a bit with
> him... but basically, npov is not so much about "explanation", but
> rather more about "habit and precedent". Most learn and understand it by
> working with others. As he is alone.... I am dubious. But for now,
> content seems fine. It is essentially working along the same line that
> the french wikipedia current events.

As a brief update, real articles are now being written by a handful of
contributors:

http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Excuses_de_Koizumi_pour_le_pass%C3%A9_japonais
http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Fin_de_gr%C3%A8ve_%C3%A0_Radio_France
http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Allaoui%2C_premier_ministre_irakien%2C_survit_%C3%A0_une_cinqui%C3%A8me_tentative_d%27assassinat
http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Le_pr%C3%A9sident_%C3%A9quatorien_Lucio_Gutti%C3%A9rrez_est_destitu%C3%A9_par_le_Congr%C3%A8s
http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Formation_du_gouvernement_de_Najib_Mikati
http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Crise_politique_en_Italie
http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/La_Wikip%C3%A9dia_francophone_fait_sauter_les_compteurs
http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Joseph_Ratzinger_%C3%A9lu_pape
http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/La_Cour_supr%C3%AAme_de_l%27Oregon_annule_3_000_mariages_homosexuels

I can't judge the quality of these, but they seem to follow the
stylistic conventions of the other editions. I'm happy to see that the
project is making progress.

All best,

Erik


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Different community dynamics for this Mediterranian
	Wikipedia

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> The community dynamic is very different from any existing Wikipedia
> because these people have all seen each other, and if nessecary can
> meet face-to-face to discuss problems without much hassle.

It's worth noting that when the Dutch wikipedia had their symposium last
fall, there was a similar effect -- esp. since Waerth came all the way
from Thailand to be there.  That is, the vast majority of major
contributors and "famous people" were all there... even ones who were
not getting along well at the time.

This is one of the disadvantages that en has compared to many other
languages -- there is no realistic hope of ever getting together all the
most famous people on en at the same time.  (Unless someone wants to
donate a huge amount of money to sponsor a conference where the travel
for them is paid!)

--Jimbo


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
The Cunctator (cunctator at kband.com) [050422 23:49]:
> On 4/22/05 7:19 AM, "David Gerard" <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> > The Cunctator (cunctator at kband.com) [050422 20:47]:

> >> It's really too bad that "How to Destroy Wikipedia" seems to have gone down
> >> the Memory Hole, because it's a fine example of me pouring gasoline on a
> >> fire (in short, it was the inflammatory, negative version of "How to Build
> >> Wikipedia" but you'd have to read it to understand) out of frustration and
> >> an unfortunate tendency toward sarcastic fatalism.

> > http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Cunctator/How_to_destroy_
> > Wikipedia&action=history

> Whew--that was really abrasive, nigh abusive. What was interesting is that
> even though I totally pissed off and hurt both Jimbo and Larry with it, I
> was able to mend fences with Jimbo once I convinced him I didn't mean to
> attack him personally, was sorry for hurting him, and had both honest
> concerns and a desire to make Wikipedia better. I was never able to convince
> Larry I wasn't attacking him personally.

I hope you have nicer thoughts towards our lovely developers now as well!
As they freely point out, the way to get the software changed the way you
want is to write the features you think are missing ... note at least one
case (Tim Starling) of an editor turning almost entirely to MediaWiki
development and Wikimedia sytem administration because there just weren't
enough people doing it.

(For all the talk of Wikipedia being "the encyclopedia Slashdot built,"
I'm suspecting we have far less computer people than we do arts people
editing. Or more would idly turn their hand to MediaWiki. I'm learning PHP
specifically so I can do evil things to the software, first for myself then
for all you lovely people.)

- d.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking

body:
John Bradley (john at ontobus.co.uk) [050423 00:50]:

> I think it is everyone who cares about Wikipedia as an encyclopedia rather
> than a social club stepped forward and be counted.

Personal attacks toward other editors are not tolerated because they drive
other volunteers away from editing. This is bad for Wikipedia.

Really. I pretty much don't care how much of an expert a given editor is -
if they're acting like an arsehole and making editing an unpleasant
experience for others, we don't need them. There are PLENTY of really quite
high-grade experts editing Wikipedia who don't in fact act like arseholes.

(This does, however, require a more than usual tolerance for and patience
with stupid fellow volunteers amongst the experts in question, and
occasional annoying having to prove things from first principles on talk
pages when the well-meaning idjit doesn't get it. This is quite a bit less
than ideal, and we need ways to deal with it, but it still isn't an excuse
for personal attacks.)

Note that Irate, the user in question, has not shown even this level of
justification for his streams of personal attacks.

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 21, Issue 53

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> Yes, I'm guessing without Bomis Premium and the Bomis Babes, there
> would be at least a few dollars less in funding available to the
> Wikimedia foundation.

The point is: you're guessing, and guessing wrong.  You know nothing
about my personal finances, the finances of my companies, etc.

If Bomis had never existed in any way shape or form, more money would
have been available for Wikipedia, not less.

--Jimbo


body:
Anthere wrote:
> I mention it in nearly every interview, and in most presentations.
>
> I think the .com failure was pretty bad for many people (it was for my
> little bank savings). I like the idea that a .com helped Wikipedia to
> arise from nothing but expectations. And I even like it more that this
> .com was a soft porn site. I think it shows there is good in everything
> even if some people really disapprove of such sites :-)

The problem is, it just is not accurate.  Yes, it's a cute story, but
really, it is just not accurate.

--Jimbo


from_name: Sabine Cretella

subject: [Textbook-l] Executive inaction?

body:
Tomer Chachamu wrote:

>On 23 Apr 2005 00:24:43 +0200, Manuel GR <mgrojo at ya.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Probably Wikibooks needs more administrators or at least more active
>>ones.
>>
>>
>
>I think the main problem is that nobody is really interested in
>Wikibooks. They just want to contribute to their own group of (no more
>than) 5 books. Therefore, we also have no {{cleanup}}, low activity on
>VfD, etc.
>
>
The problem is not this I belive - there are many people who are
interested - most of them are very active in other older projects
(wikipedia, wiktionary etc.) and so they spend some additional time on
wikibooks - it is the same to me - the admin of the Italian wiktionary
does not allow to follow up things like I would on wikibooks. What I am
trying to do is to interest other people who are potential" new editors"
to go to wikibooks, but this takes time. Out of 50 conversations you
have maybe one who is going to contribute. It is not like wikisource or
wikiquote or wikinews that you write short articles or add just a quote
- you "write books" and that is hard work.

One thing wikibooks should try to insert are software manuals - those of
the OpenSource community that are under GFDL. This helps both: the
software project and wikibooks as any user going there to search for
information is a potential contributer.

I will start with our OmegaT manual - on the English wikibooks and then
translate it into German and/or Italian. We will insert the link to the
OmegaT website and when I give explanations I will send people there to
look up a how-to. This makes the project known. People using OmegaT are
language professionals - so it is quite likely that sooner or later they
read the books being edited to learn their specific language and they
very likely will then start to add.

What I am also trying to create on the Italian wikibooks is not so much
a German teaching book, but an exercise book teachers at a certain point
can use in the class, Anyone can use for own exercises. There are no
solutions up to now - people will have to ask me for now - so I have a
reason to talk about the project.

For the admins: they should concentrate on their rule of cleaning up
things and only after having done that edit. But even this is hard, as
most admins are the major contributors ...

Hmmm ... whoever thinks there's not enough done: why don't you just
start to do what needs to be done?

Wishing you a great weekend!

Sabine


subject:
[Foundation-l] Re: [Wikinews-l] TheWorldForum.org adds Wikinews
	logo

body:
On 4/17/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Currently, the only officer I am aware of is Mav.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Official_position lists three potential
positions;
    * Chief Financial Officer: Daniel Mayer
    * Developer Liaison: -
    * Election Officials: Varies with each election

The possible splitting of "Developer Liaison" into Developer Liaison
and Server Liaison was discussed recently.

The page only includes positions assigned since the existence of the
Board. Other positions were handed out by Jimmy before that. The only
ones I remember are
Content Partnership Co-ordinator: Erik M?ller
Spokesperson (just for the French Wikipedia?): Yann Forget

Angela.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] pitching an idea

body:
Steve Lefevre wrote:
> I don't think NPOV is that startling -- hasn't that idea been around in
> journalism for the past century? I would think that most other
> encyclopedias make that claim.

The startling bit isn't neutrality or nonbias as concepts but rather
NPOV as a social concept of co-operation.

> Language did not evolve as a mirror of the truth. Writing that purports
> to come from a neutral point of view comes off as stilted and awkward.
> Language is a way to debate, argue, and convince. I say put language to
> its best use and let proponents make their case.

There's nothing wrong with doing that, too.  NPOV isn't the only way to
write.  But it certainly is interesting.

--Jimbo


body:
On 4/18/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Now, we'll have a scan of the letter posted online soon.

A scan of the original is available on the Foundation website at
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Image:501%28c%293_Letter.png

Angela.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] pitching an idea

body:
I'm still reading the entire thread, but I just wanted to throw in a
couple of hopefully useful comments.

First, there is always a great temptation by programmers and
technologists to use points systems and ratings systems as a replacement
for genuine community.  Steve asks the question "Who gets to decide what
is a credible view?" as if there is no possible answer to the question
other than voting or ratings.  But the answer is: "We do, the community,
through a process of kind and thoughtful reasoned discourse to attempt
to chart as neutral a summary of the issue as we can given our
limitations as human beings -- we try to help the reader understand not
just our own opinions, but also the full range of the subject, within
the limitations of time and the medium we are using."

Ratings can't replace reasoned discourse and thoughtful compromise and
it seems very very likely to me that for game theoretic reasons most
ratings systems would contain incentives very very different from the
"mutually assured destruction" of wiki editing.

Second, there's absolutely nothing wrong with passionate writing to
prove a point.  But, ahem, maybe I'm a fool and a hardass, but my
promise to the community from the very beginning, and one of the things
that holds us together as a passionate community of hard workers trying
to help the world is precisely that NPOV is non-negotiable.

Recently in Finland a reporter started bugging Anthere at a talk she was
giving to explain Jimbo's political views.  Now we all know as community
members why that's so funny.  No one needs to care about my political
views because even if I wanted to make Jimbopedia, I don't have the
means to do it... NPOV is that deeply ingrained here.

--Jimbo


from_name: Anthere

body:
I even wrote part of one of those. Sigh :-(

I was put under pressure by highly motivated Amgine :-)

ant

Erik Moeller a ?crit:
> Anthere:
>
>> I am undecided as well about closing or not closing fr. There is one
>> contributor to it. What worries me is that he is not a wikipedian, and
>> seems to have strange ideas about npov. I tried to discuss it a bit
>> with him... but basically, npov is not so much about "explanation",
>> but rather more about "habit and precedent". Most learn and understand
>> it by working with others. As he is alone.... I am dubious. But for
>> now, content seems fine. It is essentially working along the same line
>> that the french wikipedia current events.
>
>
> As a brief update, real articles are now being written by a handful of
> contributors:
>
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Excuses_de_Koizumi_pour_le_pass%C3%A9_japonais
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Fin_de_gr%C3%A8ve_%C3%A0_Radio_France
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Allaoui%2C_premier_ministre_irakien%2C_survit_%C3%A0_une_cinqui%C3%A8me_tentative_d%27assassinat
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Le_pr%C3%A9sident_%C3%A9quatorien_Lucio_Gutti%C3%A9rrez_est_destitu%C3%A9_par_le_Congr%C3%A8s
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Formation_du_gouvernement_de_Najib_Mikati
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Crise_politique_en_Italie
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/La_Wikip%C3%A9dia_francophone_fait_sauter_les_compteurs
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/Joseph_Ratzinger_%C3%A9lu_pape
> http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/La_Cour_supr%C3%AAme_de_l%27Oregon_annule_3_000_mariages_homosexuels
>
> I can't judge the quality of these, but they seem to follow the
> stylistic conventions of the other editions. I'm happy to see that the
> project is making progress.
>
> All best,
>
> Erik


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: 501(c)(3) status granted to Wikimedia Foundation

body:
Angela a ?crit:
> On 4/18/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
>>Now, we'll have a scan of the letter posted online soon.
>
>
> A scan of the original is available on the Foundation website at
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Image:501%28c%293_Letter.png
>
> Angela.

It is also available on meta, and has been included in the board report
(under work) for next quarto :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WQ/3/En/3

ant


subject: [Foundation-l] Important AND urgent

body:
eheh, wikipedia strength.

Anyway, thanks to Saforrest, Mark Ryan, Sj and anon.

We'll keep you informed.

Ant

Jean-Christophe Chazalette a ?crit:
> Gee, I was translating my prose in English badly and slowly for days. Now,
> thanks to Anthere note, it's all done, even better in English than in French
> :)
>
> I'm amazed Wikicommons could be nominated but - as you could see in my
> article - in my opinion, Commons is indeed the very place where the
> international wikimedians try to work together.
>
> viiy ~~Jean-Christophe Chazalette
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anthere" <anthere9 at yahoo.com>
> To: <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
> Cc: <wikifr-l at wikimedia.org>; <wikien-l-AeOJrEpdGNeGglJvpFV4uA at public.gmane.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 1:11 PM
> Subject: [Foundation-l] Important AND urgent
>
>
> | JoiIto just told me we could be nominated for the Ars
> | Electronica digital community prize for Wikicommons.
> |
> | Well, we were nominated but nobody had accepted the
> | nomination till today (last day), so we were on verge
> | of being rejected.
> |
> | I just accepted the nomination on behalf of the
> | community.
> |
> | As a reminder, we got this prize last year for
> | wikipedia community.
> | It is worth presenting wikicommmons, as the community
> | and the interaction between editors is significantly
> | different than on Wikipedia, in particular due to
> | multilingualism. Actually, Wikicommons might be the
> | ultimate type of digital community !
> |
> | Now, we have about 24 hours to provide information
> | about wikicommons.
> |
> | The good news is that Villy recently wrote a text
> | about wikicommons for Quarto. But he wrote it in
> | french. Part was translated, but need copyediting.
> | Other parts were not translated.
> |
> | Please HELP fix the page till tomorrow and improve it
> | if you feel it necessary (add pictures, logos...).
> |
> | This is both IMPORTANT AND URGENT.
> |
> | I hope some of you can help.
> |
> | Thanks a lot in advance.
> |
> | Anthere
> |
> | (and thanks to villy)
> |
> |
> | http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Anthere/wikicommons_overview
> |
> | __________________________________________________
> | Do You Yahoo!?
> | Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> | http://mail.yahoo.com
> | _______________________________________________
> | foundation-l mailing list
> | foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> |


subject: [Foundation-l] Important AND urgent


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Jack Lutz a ?crit:
>
> wiki pedista wrote:
>
>
>>Talking about the Spanish fork, Larrys letter
>>announcing he was no longer an employee was the spark
>>for it, but that is another long story.
>>
>>
>
> Can you elaborate on that? There is not much information that I see, in
> English, about the Spanish fork.

Recently, to help with the Wikipedia Retro topic on meta, I asked
Astronomer to give us his view on what happened during the spanish fork.

He declined, saying it was still too early, which I understand quite
well. I hope Astronomer will long stay with us, and one day the topic is
not quite painful to discuss.

I have fragmental memories of this event... I only know that it is this
event, followed by the little heat up triggered one or two months later
by the french wikipedia adopting a different logo from the rest of the
project (a white and green dove), which led me to somehow decide to get
involved so that wikipedia becomes an international project... which it
was NOT in spring 2002.

I am very thankful of Astronomo of his report on year 2001...

I tend to consider Larry as a co-foundator of the project myself, but
not being there in 2001, it is just a personal assumption from what I
heard and read; I think he was essential for the project to start, just
as Jimbo was essential as well. Coining a name or a concept does not
only define what a foundator is. And for what the project is today, just
for existing, for helping a lot setting up the base of what Wikipedia is
today. I would like to thank you Larry and hope he stops having so many
hard feelings.

Now, I must say... I think a project of such a type can only work
*without* a strong authority. It is important to let people built their
own organisation. Jimbo has this very powerful strength, in this that he
lets most of the organisation be a self-organisation. For those who know
a bit about leadership, it is a rather rare occurence. For the sake of
wikipedia, and to let all the international projects grow up (without a
strong hand to lead them), it was important that the role of the editor
in chief disappear.

ant


from_name: Steven R.Loomis

subject: [Wikipedia-l] en.wikipedia.org is in Latin 1 (ISO-8859-1) ??

body:
I thought I was seeing things, but sure enough:
lynx http://en.wikipedia.org
  'Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1'

Is there a plan to migrate all wikis to utf-8? at the very least it
makes writing interwiki links a major pain. For now I seem to be able
to just force my browser (Safari) to utf-8 long enough to type the
interwiki links.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Special_characters#Unicode

If this is documented/discussed/argued somewhere else, let me know.
I'm asking here from a policy point of view.    Is there a better
solution?

Thanks,
[[w:mt:User:Srl]]

And a big thank you to all who work on this project.  It's amazing how
well the tools work from a community point of view.  I think
mt.wikipedia.org is set to have a major and positive impact on the
Maltese language online, possibly offline as well.

Grazzi ?afna lilkom minn qalbi.


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official positions

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Yann Forget a ?crit:
> > Le Saturday 23 April 2005 14:51, Anthere a ?crit :
> >
> >>Yann Forget a ?crit:
> >>
> >>>Le Saturday 23 April 2005 14:07, Anthere a ?crit :
> >>>
> >>>>>Spokesperson (just for the French Wikipedia?): Yann Forget
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Angela.
> >>>>
> >>>>Yes. These were handled before the board was elected and when we
> >>>>discussed official positions, these were not confirmed. Not being
> >>>>discussed, nor listed in any official place, I considered them not
> valid
> >>>>any more. I am sorry if I misunderstood this.
> >>>>
> >>>>This said, Yann has continued to believe himself the porte parole of
> >>>>Foundation, in spite of discussion and private mention to him by
> Jimbo
> >>>>than he was no more. He still considers he is and acts as if he is.
> >>>
> >>>That's completely false. Anthere, please stop spreading false
> >>>allegations, lies and rumors.
> >>
> >>http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=283514
> >
> >
> > I never told this journalist that I was the porte-parole of the
> Foundation.
> > That's a false allegation you continue to spread in spite of the
> fact that I
> > already told you so several times.
> >
> > Yann
>
> You have been asked several times to be careful to restore the
> information and to indicate which role you were holding each time you
> talked about something. This in particular true for all topics which
> are related to the Foundation proper.
>
> Typically, no articles about a potential agreement with Google should
> appear in the press, with comments from you, speaking in the name of
> the Foundation. This is not correct.
>
> Each time you let such an article go public, you feed the idea you are
> the porte parole and has more authority to talk about this than anyone
> else.
>
> It does not make things easier when you send our ***official*** 100
> 000 article press release and carefully remove the names of all the
> contacts listed in the press release. You further fuel the idea you
> are the *only* point of contact for any press relation for wikipedia
> and the *only* one who has authority to talk about such matters.
> Anyone has the right to talk about wikipedia. Removing other people
> names is again incorrect.
>
> So, as much as you told me several times you recognised you were not
> the porte parole; I would like to ask you again to clarify in which
> name you talk to any outside person, to remove from you CV the fact
> you are this porte parole and to avoid sending press release without
> any of the contacts mentionned but you only.
>
> Other than this, I have little to say on the quality of your
> participation which is appreciated.

As this is a squabble between two Wikipedians whose opinions and vision
I most deeply respect there are evident misunderstandings involved.  I
noted the phrase "porte-parole de la fondation Wikip?dia pour la France"
in the Lib?ration, but I also have enough life experience to know that
what appears in newspapers is often quite different from what is said to
journalists.

I checked Yann's CV at http://www.forget-me.net/cv.html and the only
reference to us there now is "Secr?taire de l'association Wikim?dia
<http://wikimedia.org/> France".  I have no problems with this. If
erroneous material was there before it is no longer there.

Giuven the high esteem in which I hold both of you, I'm sure that a
middle path will be found to reconcile this series of misunderstandings
and misstatements.  There are more than enough others that do the contrary.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official positions


from_name: V. Ivanov

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Ossetic again (bugs, bugs, bugs...)

body:
Hello there,

The other example of the misfunctioning interwiki links can be found
at http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D1%8B%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B3_%D0%B0%D0%B4%C3%A6%D0%BC
? all the interwikies _from_ the Ossetic WP to older WPs do work,
while the interwiki to cv: (created in December 2004 or so) is the red
part of the article.

How can we change all that? Feeling ourselves a somewhat outer project
with no links to the "main WP" is really weird.
E. g. now we have a really cute article
http://os.wikipedia.org/wiki/???????_????? translated into Russian,
German and Esperanto. We would like to propose it for the "Translation
of the Week" as soon as we have the well-structured English version.
But how can we do that, if no interwiki links to the Ossetic articles
can exist?!..

Respectfully,
Slavik Ivanov

--
Esperu cxiam!
http://os.wikipedia.org/
http://e-novosti.info/forumo/


from_name: Rebecca

subject: [WikiEN-l] Prudishness and censorship

body:
No thank you. I don't want to be forced to view a bowderized Wikipedia
just to take out a very small number of images that shouldn't be
inline in the first place, and I don't want the harm that this causes
to our *readership* (who wouldn't have such a setting) either.

-- ambi

On 4/23/05, Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net> wrote:
> On 20 Apr 2005, at 5:03 pm, Rick wrote:
>
> > I don't want to be forced to go to a link every time I want to see an
> > image.  If there were some way to do it in the Preferences, then I
> > have no problem at all.
>
> Whatta ya think of
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/End-user_image_suppression
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Prudishness and censorship

body:
Rebecca said:
> No thank you. I don't want to be forced to view a bowderized Wikipedia
> just to take out a very small number of images that shouldn't be
> inline in the first place

So you want it bowdlerized but not bowdlerized?  How does that work?


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Prudishness and censorship

body:
--- Christiaan Briggs <christiaan at last-straw.net>
wrote:
> On 20 Apr 2005, at 5:03 pm, Rick wrote:
>
> > I don't want to be forced to go to a link every
> time I want to see an
> > image.  If there were some way to do it in the
> Preferences, then I
> > have no problem at all.
>
> Whatta ya think of
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/End-user_image_suppression

Besides the fact that I really hate the title
("suppression"?  EEK!), the proposal still relies on
POV image labelling, which I will always object to.

RickK

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikinews-l] TheWorldForum.org adds Wikinews logo

body:
Angela a ?crit:
> On 4/17/05, Anthere <anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Currently, the only officer I am aware of is Mav.
>
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Official_position lists three potential
> positions;
>     * Chief Financial Officer: Daniel Mayer
>     * Developer Liaison: -
>     * Election Officials: Varies with each election
>
> The possible splitting of "Developer Liaison" into Developer Liaison
> and Server Liaison was discussed recently.
>
> The page only includes positions assigned since the existence of the
> Board. Other positions were handed out by Jimmy before that. The only
> ones I remember are
> Content Partnership Co-ordinator: Erik M?ller
> Spokesperson (just for the French Wikipedia?): Yann Forget
>
> Angela.

Yes. These were handled before the board was elected and when we
discussed official positions, these were not confirmed. Not being
discussed, nor listed in any official place, I considered them not valid
any more. I am sorry if I misunderstood this.

This said, Yann has continued to believe himself the porte parole of
Foundation, in spite of discussion and private mention to him by Jimbo
than he was no more. He still considers he is and acts as if he is.

Consequently, I suggest that this be rediscussed again between the 5 of
us and that these positions are confirmed or infirmed.

Ihmo, if these positions are still valid, it is so secret that even
board members are not aware of it :-)

My biggest point anyway would be that having an official position does
not give the right to take a big decision on behalf of the Foundation. I
do not feel that right myself.


from_name: zalwa setiyadi

subject: [Wikitech-l] Introducing Superdialup

body:
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from_name: Yann Forget

subject: [Foundation-l] Official positions

body:
Le Saturday 23 April 2005 14:07, Anthere a ?crit :
> > Spokesperson (just for the French Wikipedia?): Yann Forget
> >
> > Angela.
>
> Yes. These were handled before the board was elected and when we
> discussed official positions, these were not confirmed. Not being
> discussed, nor listed in any official place, I considered them not valid
> any more. I am sorry if I misunderstood this.
>
> This said, Yann has continued to believe himself the porte parole of
> Foundation, in spite of discussion and private mention to him by Jimbo
> than he was no more. He still considers he is and acts as if he is.

That's completely false. Anthere, please stop spreading false allegations,
lies and rumors.

> Consequently, I suggest that this be rediscussed again between the 5 of
> us and that these positions are confirmed or infirmed.
>
> Ihmo, if these positions are still valid, it is so secret that even
> board members are not aware of it :-)
>
> My biggest point anyway would be that having an official position does
> not give the right to take a big decision on behalf of the Foundation. I
> do not feel that right myself.

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Foundation-l] Official positions


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
Steven R.Loomis wrote:
> I thought I was seeing things, but sure enough:
> lynx http://en.wikipedia.org
>  'Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1'
>
> Is there a plan to migrate all wikis to utf-8?

Yes, this will be done with the MediaWiki 1.5 upgrade which will happen
in the next month or so.

> at the very least it
> makes writing interwiki links a major pain. For now I seem to be able to
> just force my browser (Safari) to utf-8 long enough to type the
> interwiki links.

Try Firefox; it will automatically convert non-Latin1 characters to
character reference entities when you post.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Andy Rabagliati

subject: [Wikitech-l] Pretoria meetup

body:
Folks,

Angela and Eloquence were in Pretoria, South Africa, between April 19-21
for an International FLOSS and Free Knowledge Workshop run by the
CSIR Open Source Centre, and Angela put out a notice of a meetup.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Pretoria

We met at the hotel, and then went out to dinner, quite a few people
from the af: wikipedia as well.

Eloquence talked about incremental updates, and followed up with this :-

   Regarding the article feed, there's an implementation of the
   OAI-PMH protocol currently in use for http://www.answers.com -
   see http://www.openarchives.org/OAI/openarchivesprotocol.html
   for the specs. As you can see on
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3AOAIRepository, this is
   currently limited in access (we are offering it as a service).

This seems to be at a higher level than keeping mysql consistent across
a possibly high-latency connection - it treats the wiki as a repository
of articles, and is a server that will furnish information about the
data, as well as the data itself. I have not looked into it far enough
to see if it supports a reverse feed, but I am sure one-way is a lot
easier :-)

I gather that mediawiki 1.5 will not treat the current version of an
article specially, enabling efficient support of OAI-PMH.

I said I wanted an rsync'able image archive.

Eloquence is a wiki-evangelist (save the world :-), and is currently
promoting [[n:Main Page|Wikinews]]. He obliged me to take another look,
which I have done. It is taking me a little time to get used to it, and
the form-based Search seems a bit puzzling, but an interesting front
page :-)

Angela talked about different language encyclopedia (af: has the most
articles, swahili next). We talked of the problems of prefix-based
languages in wiki markup space - [[sw:ntu]] (a man) should be easy
markup for an intext mention of [[bantu]], meaning men.

Thinking now the easiest thing is to reverse the markup order
Ba[[ntu:sw]] but it seems a bit radical, and has consequences for the
basis of other markup styles like the pipe separator.

There was Wayne Mackintosh, a fascinating guy from University of Auckland,
with eXe :-

    The eXe project is developing an off-line authoring environment
    to assist teachers and academics in the publishing of web content
    without the need to become proficient in HTML or XML markup.

	http://exe.cfdl.auckland.ac.nz/

He also needs or has an update protocol for eXe data, and had an interest
in high latency connections, and I refer him to http://www.dtnrg.org/ .

My site http://wizzy.org.za/ deals with email and web content delivery
over UUCP. I also put a wikipedia snapshot down in schools, very handy
(and faster) if schools are not dialed up during the day. If I can carry
the wiki changes over UUCP, I will be happy!

Thanks to CSIR http://www.csir.co.za/ for enabling this.

Cheers,    Andy!


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official positions

body:
Yann Forget a ?crit:
> Le Saturday 23 April 2005 14:07, Anthere a ?crit :
>
>>>Spokesperson (just for the French Wikipedia?): Yann Forget
>>>
>>>Angela.
>>
>>Yes. These were handled before the board was elected and when we
>>discussed official positions, these were not confirmed. Not being
>>discussed, nor listed in any official place, I considered them not valid
>>any more. I am sorry if I misunderstood this.
>>
>>This said, Yann has continued to believe himself the porte parole of
>>Foundation, in spite of discussion and private mention to him by Jimbo
>>than he was no more. He still considers he is and acts as if he is.
>
>
> That's completely false. Anthere, please stop spreading false allegations,
> lies and rumors.

http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=283514


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official positions


from_name: John Bradley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking

body:
It isn't a personal attack it's an attack on religion and the mush inducing
effect it has on people. Next you'll be saying that pointing out a signed up
member of the KKK may be racists is a personal insult.

Date sent:      	Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:00:14 -0700
From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
To:             	wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> > I have noting that you belong to several sections of society not
> > known for there honesty. You statements are all based on your faith
> > that you are right, It is unimaginable to you that you are
> > wrong. The same kind of fact free faith you take to church on
> > Sunday.
>
> Religiously bigoted personal attacks are not allowed.  Desist.
>
> --
>  Sean Barrett
>  sean at epoptic.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking

body:
It is strange that you can decide that one group of editors is valuable to
wikipedia but not another.

Can you show me some data which demonstrates that the losses cause by
straight talking would exceed the saving acheived by some editor pruning?
or is this another case of assuming that the first idea that comes into your
head is right and fighting for it.

You'll also note that this is the first time Dave Gerard has responded to me
with anything other than msgs saying he will not talk with me.

Date sent:      	Sat, 23 Apr 2005 05:58:32 +1000
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking
From:           	David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au>
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> John Bradley (john at ontobus.co.uk) [050423 00:50]:
>
> > I think it is everyone who cares about Wikipedia as an encyclopedia rather
> > than a social club stepped forward and be counted.
>
>
> Personal attacks toward other editors are not tolerated because they drive
> other volunteers away from editing. This is bad for Wikipedia.
>
> Really. I pretty much don't care how much of an expert a given editor is -
> if they're acting like an arsehole and making editing an unpleasant
> experience for others, we don't need them. There are PLENTY of really quite
> high-grade experts editing Wikipedia who don't in fact act like arseholes.
>
> (This does, however, require a more than usual tolerance for and patience
> with stupid fellow volunteers amongst the experts in question, and
> occasional annoying having to prove things from first principles on talk
> pages when the well-meaning idjit doesn't get it. This is quite a bit less
> than ideal, and we need ways to deal with it, but it still isn't an excuse
> for personal attacks.)
>
> Note that Irate, the user in question, has not shown even this level of
> justification for his streams of personal attacks.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official positions

body:
Le Saturday 23 April 2005 14:51, Anthere a ?crit :
> Yann Forget a ?crit:
> > Le Saturday 23 April 2005 14:07, Anthere a ?crit :
> >>>Spokesperson (just for the French Wikipedia?): Yann Forget
> >>>
> >>>Angela.
> >>
> >>Yes. These were handled before the board was elected and when we
> >>discussed official positions, these were not confirmed. Not being
> >>discussed, nor listed in any official place, I considered them not valid
> >>any more. I am sorry if I misunderstood this.
> >>
> >>This said, Yann has continued to believe himself the porte parole of
> >>Foundation, in spite of discussion and private mention to him by Jimbo
> >>than he was no more. He still considers he is and acts as if he is.
> >
> > That's completely false. Anthere, please stop spreading false
> > allegations, lies and rumors.
>
> http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=283514

I?never told this journalist that I?was the porte-parole of the Foundation.
That's a false allegation you continue to spread in spite of the fact that I
already told you so several times.

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre
http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official positions


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official positions

body:
Yann Forget a ?crit:
 > Le Saturday 23 April 2005 14:51, Anthere a ?crit :
 >
 >>Yann Forget a ?crit:
 >>
 >>>Le Saturday 23 April 2005 14:07, Anthere a ?crit :
 >>>
 >>>>>Spokesperson (just for the French Wikipedia?): Yann Forget
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Angela.
 >>>>
 >>>>Yes. These were handled before the board was elected and when we
 >>>>discussed official positions, these were not confirmed. Not being
 >>>>discussed, nor listed in any official place, I considered them not
valid
 >>>>any more. I am sorry if I misunderstood this.
 >>>>
 >>>>This said, Yann has continued to believe himself the porte parole of
 >>>>Foundation, in spite of discussion and private mention to him by Jimbo
 >>>>than he was no more. He still considers he is and acts as if he is.
 >>>
 >>>That's completely false. Anthere, please stop spreading false
 >>>allegations, lies and rumors.
 >>
 >>http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=283514
 >
 >
 > I never told this journalist that I was the porte-parole of the
Foundation.
 > That's a false allegation you continue to spread in spite of the fact
that I
 > already told you so several times.
 >
 > Yann

You have been asked several times to be careful to restore the
information and to indicate which role you were holding each time you
talked about something. This in particular true for all topics which are
related to the Foundation proper.

Typically, no articles about a potential agreement with Google should
appear in the press, with comments from you, speaking in the name of the
Foundation. This is not correct.

Each time you let such an article go public, you feed the idea you are
the porte parole and has more authority to talk about this than anyone else.

It does not make things easier when you send our ***official*** 100 000
article press release and carefully remove the names of all the contacts
listed in the press release. You further fuel the idea you are the
*only* point of contact for any press relation for wikipedia and the
*only* one who has authority to talk about such matters. Anyone has the
right to talk about wikipedia. Removing other people names is again
incorrect.

So, as much as you told me several times you recognised you were not the
porte parole; I would like to ask you again to clarify in which name you
talk to any outside person, to remove from you CV the fact you are this
porte parole and to avoid sending press release without any of the
contacts mentionned but you only.

Other than this, I have little to say on the quality of your
participation which is appreciated.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official positions


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rendering of italics

in_reply_to:
<1114236537.4115.1.camel@penguin.piclab.com> (Lee Daniel
	Crocker's message of "Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:08:57 -0700")

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> writes:

> One thing I noticed after resurrecting the test suite: text in
> double tics is now rendered as "<i>" instead of "<em>".  Was this
> a consciously-made change, or just an error introduced into the
> parser at some point?

Because the WP markup is layout markup, using <i> is perfectly okay,
unfortunately...  Because we editors are stupid, we do not deserve
semantic markup - that's what I was told more than once by the
developers.

--
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                           |      ,__o
                                                        |    _-\_<,
                                                        |   (*)/'(*)
Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4  AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] pitching an idea

body:
Regarding the interest in your political views, I don't know if the
Finnish reporter had an understanding of NPOV, but even with such an
understanding there still might be interest.

There are numerous reasons for this: interest in you yourself, a
belief that it may have somehow influenced the structure of the
organisation, a desire to discredit or praise Wikipedia (invalidly
though) by saying "See, Wikipedia must be good/bad because its founder
is a______ / believes _________".

Mark

On 23/04/05, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>
> I'm still reading the entire thread, but I just wanted to throw in a
> couple of hopefully useful comments.
>
> First, there is always a great temptation by programmers and
> technologists to use points systems and ratings systems as a replacement
> for genuine community.  Steve asks the question "Who gets to decide what
> is a credible view?" as if there is no possible answer to the question
> other than voting or ratings.  But the answer is: "We do, the community,
> through a process of kind and thoughtful reasoned discourse to attempt
> to chart as neutral a summary of the issue as we can given our
> limitations as human beings -- we try to help the reader understand not
> just our own opinions, but also the full range of the subject, within
> the limitations of time and the medium we are using."
>
> Ratings can't replace reasoned discourse and thoughtful compromise and
> it seems very very likely to me that for game theoretic reasons most
> ratings systems would contain incentives very very different from the
> "mutually assured destruction" of wiki editing.
>
> Second, there's absolutely nothing wrong with passionate writing to
> prove a point.  But, ahem, maybe I'm a fool and a hardass, but my
> promise to the community from the very beginning, and one of the things
> that holds us together as a passionate community of hard workers trying
> to help the world is precisely that NPOV is non-negotiable.
>
> Recently in Finland a reporter started bugging Anthere at a talk she was
> giving to explain Jimbo's political views.  Now we all know as community
> members why that's so funny.  No one needs to care about my political
> views because even if I wanted to make Jimbopedia, I don't have the
> means to do it... NPOV is that deeply ingrained here.
>
> --Jimbo
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


body:
Sure - but still, the nations in question are still much larger than
Malta, so a meeting is a semi-big deal and you have to plan for it a
bit more than in Malta, where everybody just goes to a caf? which is
pretty close to everybody. Also, the meets were only recent concepts
in those cases, whereas on mt.wiki the idea arose almost instantly.

Mark

On 23/04/05, David Gerard <fun at thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Jimmy Wales (jwales at wikia.com) [050423 22:49]:
>
> > This is one of the disadvantages that en has compared to many other
> > languages -- there is no realistic hope of ever getting together all the
> > most famous people on en at the same time.  (Unless someone wants to
> > donate a huge amount of money to sponsor a conference where the travel
> > for them is paid!)
>
> Meets have made the UK side of things feel slightly more cohesive. Though it
> would be Bad for it to fall into national clumps.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Timwi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Prudishness and censorship

body:
mbecker ? wrote:
>
> I don't want to get involved with this discussion, and like others on
> the various mailing lists that these (sometimes childish) arguements
> have ensued I have chosen to ignore the many threads for quite
> sometime. I would like to respectfully ask that these conversations
> please be moved off list to the appropriate pages.
> [...]
> Please move these conversations off list.

While I find these conversations silly and pointless too, I think I
should point out to you that they are nevertheless perfectly on-topic on
this mailing list.


body:
Jimmy Wales a ?crit:
> Anthere wrote:
>
>>I mention it in nearly every interview, and in most presentations.
>>
>>I think the .com failure was pretty bad for many people (it was for my
>>little bank savings). I like the idea that a .com helped Wikipedia to
>>arise from nothing but expectations. And I even like it more that this
>>.com was a soft porn site. I think it shows there is good in everything
>>even if some people really disapprove of such sites :-)
>
>
> The problem is, it just is not accurate.  Yes, it's a cute story, but
> really, it is just not accurate.
>
> --Jimbo

Ah ?
Embarassing :-(
But then, what is the accurate story ?

Ant


from_name: Tomer Chachamu

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rendering of italics

body:
On 23/04/05, Karl Eichwalder <ke at gnu.franken.de> wrote:
> Because the WP markup is layout markup, using <i> is perfectly okay,
> unfortunately...  Because we editors are stupid, we do not deserve
> semantic markup - that's what I was told more than once by the
> developers.

That's pathetic. We want semantic markup! We want semantic markup!


from_name: Kate Turner

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: user's monobook.js

body:
Milos Rancic wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:

> I realized that user:<anyone>/monobook.js pages don't have any kind of
> protection.

monobook.js and monobook.css are protected from edits by users other than
the user of whose user page they are a subpage.

kate.


from_name: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
On 4/23/05, Patrick Collison <patrick at collison.ie> wrote:
> An advanced search, using EXIF data, could be nice---especially for
> the photos that have GPS EXIF data (not many, but they're getting
> more common). Maybe have a field for the commonly-used EXIF tags, and
> shove anything strange into a field at the end. They're displayed,
> but can't be used in searches.

There are 116 valid exif fields in version 2.2 of the standard, we
probably only want to index 103 of those, but that still leaves alot
of fields.

Could you point me to an image (or images) with GPS metadata? I'm
currently improving our GPS EXIF support of which we have none.


from_name: Walter Vermeir

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: guarding a wiki

body:
Walter van Kalken schreef:
> If every active member takes one "dead" wiki under his/her guide by
> guarding it (and having sysop rights to delete trash) against spam and
> immediately greating and talking to newcomers. Than we do not have to
> lock inactive wikis! Just a check once every two or three days suffices
> like I do at Laotian. You do not really have to speak the language.
>
> Walter/Waerth

Yes, I have done this for the Frisian Wikipedia. Now it is small but
active. There can be made a list of Wikipedias to put up for adoption.
This is the best way to get a dead wiki active.

Walter /Walter


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: guarding a wiki


from_name: Patrick Collison

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
An advanced search, using EXIF data, could be nice---especially for
the photos that have GPS EXIF data (not many, but they're getting
more common). Maybe have a field for the commonly-used EXIF tags, and
shove anything strange into a field at the end. They're displayed,
but can't be used in searches.

On 22 Aib 2005, at 20:22, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

>> It's be nice if it could collapseable like the TOC, and be
>> collapsed by
>> default. It'd also be nice to gather some stats on the camera
>> models used,
>> if some are more likely to produce featured pictures, etc.
>>
>
> It would be nice if the look didn't suck in general.
>
> When Magnus initially added the support he made the table appear
> before the image and aligned it to the right, this had the negative
> side-effect of having a huge table before the image (as opposed to
> floating beside the image) when the image was too big to fit the table
> beside it, so I moved it. It would be nice if we could have the middle
> ground of beside the image if it fits and below it (not above) if it
> doesn't.
>
> Regarding statistics that wouldn't be practically possible (fast)
> unless we added a new table named image_metadata and had a seperate
> field for each valid EXIF tag (of which there are alot), then we could
> add an advanced Image search.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikitech-l] Rendering of italics

body:
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

>One thing I noticed after resurrecting the test suite: text in
>double tics is now rendered as "<i>" instead of "<em>".  Was this
>a consciously-made change, or just an error introduced into the
>parser at some point?
>
>
It wouldn't be particularly correct to render it semantically as
"emphasis", because the double-tics just mean "italicize this text".
Sometimes that's used for emphasis (in which case <em> would be
correct), sometimes to italicize book titles (in which case <cite> would
be correct), and sometimes to italicize variables (in which case <var>
would be correct).

Unless we want to introduce three separate forms of wikimarkup for these
three cases, <i> is at least less wrong than the other options...

-Mark


from_name: Milos Rancic

subject: [Wikitech-l] user's monobook.js

body:
I realized that user:<anyone>/monobook.js pages don't have any kind of
protection. I think it should be protected by default for others then
exact user. Is it possible? I think that you can realize how can it be
used by some intelligent vandals.


from_name: Walter van Kalken

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Different community dynamics for this
	MediterranianWikipedia

body:
>This is one of the disadvantages that en has compared to many other
>languages -- there is no realistic hope of ever getting together all the
>most famous people on en at the same time.  (Unless someone wants to
>donate a huge amount of money to sponsor a conference where the travel
>for them is paid!)
>
>--Jimbo
>
>
Right on ...... I would love to come to wikimania.But without sponsoring
it would be impossible. I gues that is the situation for many "famous"
Wikipedians!

Waerth/Walter


from_name: Faraaz Damji

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:
> I imagine that this is the ideal environment for a Wikipedia, because
> it is easier to solve problems, I think, when you know all the people
> and can discuss issues in person over a latte.

Not only that, but you're probably not going to have too many personal
attacks.  I'd probably expect a much kinder environment with a plethora
of WikiLove prancing happily in the fields ;)

Calling "some guy on the internet" a moron is a lot easier than telling
the same thing to somebody you actually know.  The community will be
much more closely knit also, and newcomers would probably be more likely
to meet face-to-face also if that's what all the other editors are doing.

I'd be interesting to see what percentage of the community has actually
seen another face-to-face in a number of months.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: user's monobook.js

body:
Kate Turner wrote:
> Milos Rancic wrote in gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical:
>
>>I realized that user:<anyone>/monobook.js pages don't have any kind of
>>protection.
>
> monobook.js and monobook.css are protected from edits by users other than
> the user of whose user page they are a subpage.

... and sysops.


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] Remove Wikicode

body:
Erik Moeller (erik_moeller at gmx.de) [050423 11:57]:

> There is a basic static HTML dumper in the current CVS version of
> MediaWiki: maintenance/dumpHTML.php - see Tim Starling's mailing list
> post on it:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-April/028741.html

What issues would be involved in backporting this to 1.4.x? Tim?

(Playing with Wikimedia DB dumps at present.)

- d.


body:
Jimmy Wales (jwales at wikia.com) [050423 22:49]:

> This is one of the disadvantages that en has compared to many other
> languages -- there is no realistic hope of ever getting together all the
> most famous people on en at the same time.  (Unless someone wants to
> donate a huge amount of money to sponsor a conference where the travel
> for them is paid!)

Meets have made the UK side of things feel slightly more cohesive. Though it
would be Bad for it to fall into national clumps.

- d.


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason schrieb:
>>It's be nice if it could collapseable like the TOC, and be collapsed by
>>default. It'd also be nice to gather some stats on the camera models used,
>>if some are more likely to produce featured pictures, etc.
>
>
> It would be nice if the look didn't suck in general.
>
> When Magnus initially added the support he made the table appear
> before the image and aligned it to the right, this had the negative
> side-effect of having a huge table before the image (as opposed to
> floating beside the image) when the image was too big to fit the table
> beside it, so I moved it. It would be nice if we could have the middle
> ground of beside the image if it fits and below it (not above) if it
> doesn't.

We could always limit the table width, and then make the user set the
maximum image preview width in his preferences manually :-]

> Regarding statistics that wouldn't be practically possible (fast)
> unless we added a new table named image_metadata and had a seperate
> field for each valid EXIF tag (of which there are alot), then we could
> add an advanced Image search.

IMHO the chances for someone desperately needing to search for all
images taken with a specific camera model or similar are pretty slim.
The vast majority of people will search for names (places, people),
types/context (beach, church, person) etc.

For doing some statistics, a dozen new fields or so might be overkill. A
statics-gathering task could run once a week or so, reading each and
every entry and doing statistics internally, then sum them up on a
single page.

If, for some reason, there's pressing need for fast searching of EXIF
data, maybe a new table (exif_image_id,exif_key,exif_value) would be in
order; that way, we can store all keys flexible (as a string), without
having to create a new field for every single key (and update and
maintain these, if the standard changes).

Magnus
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCasOJCZKBJbEFcz0RAuqzAJ4nLhJrDjDymRmvDmog+ZOmn4w2egCfZrFj
/ti8bAz8x2aFSWPcYyHQTd4=
=w+d2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
A quick Googling turned up the picture at http://www.danger-
island.com/~dav/writeon/hiptop_images/default/
2003-05-24_115510_28166_0.jpg.

On 23 Aib 2005, at 20:21, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote:

> On 4/23/05, Patrick Collison <patrick at collison.ie> wrote:
>
>> An advanced search, using EXIF data, could be nice---especially for
>> the photos that have GPS EXIF data (not many, but they're getting
>> more common). Maybe have a field for the commonly-used EXIF tags, and
>> shove anything strange into a field at the end. They're displayed,
>> but can't be used in searches.
>>
>
> There are 116 valid exif fields in version 2.2 of the standard, we
> probably only want to index 103 of those, but that still leaves alot
> of fields.
>
> Could you point me to an image (or images) with GPS metadata? I'm
> currently improving our GPS EXIF support of which we have none.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>


from_name: kelvSYC

body:
On Apr 23, 2005, at 3:33 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:

> Steven R.Loomis wrote:
>> I thought I was seeing things, but sure enough:
>> lynx http://en.wikipedia.org
>>  'Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1'
>>
>> Is there a plan to migrate all wikis to utf-8?
>
> Yes, this will be done with the MediaWiki 1.5 upgrade which will happen
> in the next month or so.
>
>> at the very least it
>> makes writing interwiki links a major pain. For now I seem to be able
>> to
>> just force my browser (Safari) to utf-8 long enough to type the
>> interwiki links.
>
> Try Firefox; it will automatically convert non-Latin1 characters to
> character reference entities when you post.
>

Firefox on the Mac has this really nasty scrolling bug with textareas
(not to mention it leaks memory) - better use Camino instead.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I would like to request the following page be deleted
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Open bug count: 353

body:
There are currently 353 open bugs filed on the MediaWiki component which
are not enhancement requests.

Yikes! Went the wrong direction in the last couple days. :)

http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/shortcut/openbugs

17 of those bugs have patches, which need to be reviewed and either
applied or replaced with something better:
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/shortcut/patches

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Conference report from South Africa

body:
This is a brief report from the FLOSS Conference in South Africa that
Erik and I attended this week. A more detailed version is on Meta at
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Conference_reports/FLOSS%2C_South_Africa_2005>;
so please read that one instead if you have time.

I was invited to give a presentation about the Wikimedia projects at
the international "Free/Libre and Open Source Software" (FLOSS) and
Free Knowledge workshop in Pretoria, South Africa. Erik was given the
opportunity to hold a workshop there about wiki technology. The byline
for the conference was "Knowledge for all, Education for all", so the
Wikimedia projects fitted in perfectly.

The first day was made up of formal presentations. A list of these is
on Meta. My talk was part of a "Digital Commons" panel. Much of the
second day was divided into two workshops, including Erik's. The theme
of Free Knowledge Communities was discussed on day 3, and there were
many areas in which Wikimedia projects could collaborate with existing
initiatives, and new ideas for using Wikimedia content:

    * Spoken Wikipedia by cell phone. Many areas of Africa have high
cell phone coverage with access to SMS. Teemu Leinonen of the
University of Art and Design Helsinki is working on a project to allow
a user to send an SMS with the article title to a phone number. A few
seconds later, they get a call on their cell phone with a (usually
machine-generated) spoken version of the article they requested.
    * Wikipedia in schools. Static HTML dumps on DVD, offline
applications that allow editing, and update feeds like rsync to
maintain offline copies, were all requested by people working on
getting Wikipedia into schools. Where people were interested in print
projects, they wanted to focus on printing out particular topics,
rather than having a copy of the entire encyclopedia.
    * Wiktionary. There is a need for a repository of legal
terminology in the 11 official languages of South Africa since courts
often rely on untrained interpreters who need a reference guide for
dealing with unfamiliar terminology from any of the languages they
were not native speakers of.
    * Wikibooks/Wikiversity/E-learning. With the price of textbooks
much higher in South Africa than in developed countriesfree textbooks
are of extreme importance, and Wikibooks could provide the content
needed for initiatives to deliver this. We discussed our existing and
potential future projects at length and talked to proponents of
various e-learning initiatives.

Again, see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Conference_reports/FLOSS%2C_South_Africa_2005
for details on any of these issues.

==Meetup==

On the evening of the third day, the first African meetup as held in
"Cafe 41". Four Wikipedians from South Africa participated: Laurens,
Alias, Renier Maritz and Andy Rabagliati. Renier's wife also joined
us, along with some people from the conference. We discussed ways to
promote the Afrikaans Wikipedia, methods to distribute Wikipedia to
Africa, localization of the interface, and possibilities for
e-learning.

==Future conferences==

Several upcoming conferences were mentioned as being of possible
interest to Wikimedia. Most notable of these are WSIS
(<http://www.itu.int/wsis/>;), which I believe Jimmy and Yann may be
attending, and the World Conference on Computers in Education
(<http://www.sbs.co.za/wcce2005/>;), for which no Wikimedia attendance
is currently planned.

Unfortunately, we did not see much of South Africa beyond the
conference centre. Nevertheless, the visit was very productive and led
to many new contacts and insights. We aim to follow up on the
discussions, and turn some of the ideas above into reality soon.

Angela.
--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Angela


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Conference report from South Africa


list: wiktionary-l

subject: [Wiktionary-l] Conference report from South Africa


from_name: Sean Barrett

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.

You don't have to put up with crap.  You have choices.

John Bradley stated for the record:

> No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
>
>
> Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
> From:           	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
>   	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>
>>Have you asked Matt?
>>
>>On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>I would like to request the following page be deleted
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
>>>things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
>>>arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
>>>               Yours
>>>
>>>               John Bradley
>>>
>>>Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
>>>Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
>>>Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
>>>WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.

John Bradley stated for the record:

> Then how to I get it removed.
>
> Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:16:47 -0700
> From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> Organization:   	Boskonia
> To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>
>>Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
>>
>>You don't have to put up with crap.  You have choices.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>John Bradley stated for the record:
>>
>>
>>>No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
>>>
>>>
>>>Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
>>>From:           	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
>>>To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>>Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
>>>Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
>>>  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>>>
>>>>Have you asked Matt?
>>>>
>>>>On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I would like to request the following page be deleted
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
>>>>>things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
>>>>>arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
>>>>>              Yours
>>>>>
>>>>>              John Bradley
>>>>>
>>>>>Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
>>>>>Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
>>>>>Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
>>>>>WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
> 		Yours
>
> 		John Bradley
>
> Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

--
  Sean Barrett     | When in doubt, use more thermite.
  sean at epoptic.com |


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
I assumed you had free will.  (Silly of me, I know, but I like to think
the best of people until they prove me wrong.)  Are options like
contacting Matt Crypto, actually becoming a part of the Wikipedia
community instead of quixotically fighting it, or going way and finding
something else to do with your life utterly beyond the realm of possibility?

John Bradley stated for the record:

> So in other words I do have to put up with it.
>
> Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:31:28 -0700
> From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
> Organization:   	Boskonia
> To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> 	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>
>>Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
>>
>>
>>
>>John Bradley stated for the record:
>>
>>
>>>Then how to I get it removed.
>>>
>>>Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:16:47 -0700
>>>From:           	Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
>>>Organization:   	Boskonia
>>>To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>>Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
>>>Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>>>
>>>>Matt Crypto owns that page.  He is the only one who will delete it.
>>>>
>>>>You don't have to put up with crap.  You have choices.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>John Bradley stated for the record:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
>>>>>From:           	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
>>>>>To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>>>>Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
>>>>>Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
>>>>> 	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
>>>>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Have you asked Matt?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would like to request the following page be deleted
>>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
>>>>>>>things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
>>>>>>>arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.


from_name: Karl Eichwalder

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Rendering of italics

in_reply_to:
<426AE00F.5090509@hackish.org> (delirium@hackish.org's message of
	"Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:53:51 -0400")

body:
Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> writes:

> Unless we want to introduce three separate forms of wikimarkup for these
> three cases, <i> is at least less wrong than the other options...

It's time to get rid of the wiki-markup - let's go for XML driven by a
nice schema (DTD or RNG).  The wiki-markup as used in the WP has changed
to an expert system ("Geheimwissenschaft").  It is short, but cryptic.
It is ambiguous and make it difficult to develop a consistent look and
feel.

Without semantic markup articles are just TLOBs (text large objects).
Advanced querying is hardly possible.  With proper markup you can access
the "history" of all cities easily.

If we do not switch now, our developers will re-invent XML and related
technologies step-by-step.

--
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                           |      ,__o
                                                        |    _-\_<,
                                                        |   (*)/'(*)
Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4  AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
You claim that you wish to help produce an encyclopedia, yet wish to
avoid joining our community. These are mutually exclusive wishes, at
least if Wikipedia is the encyclopedia you wish to help produce.

We will not allow you to fulfill both at the same time.

John Bradley stated for the record:

> Free will and being able to control you sub conscious and it's needs are not
> the same thing at all.
>
> The idea of lowering myself to the level of the average wikipedian is not
> appealing. That most of them don't appear to be hear for Wikipedias stated
> aims but for some other aims. I do not wish to join the "Wikipedia
> community", I wish to help produce an encyclopedia, and seeing as one of
> the most annoying features of wikipedians is their tendrncy to claim to
> speak for everyone in the community when try to brow beat. I have no
> intention of bolstering  the numbers they can claim to command/speak for.
>
> The idea of losing my integrity and taking part in a ritual is unpleasant, and
> as far as I can tell that's what this is.
>
> I find talk to Matt very difficult as he seems to forget everything from email
> to the next.


from_name: Stacey Greenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Since you are banned, the list of articles can be used to see if anyone is
editting on your behalf, and can be used as evidence of attempts to
circumvent the arbcom. Not that that has been done, but it is a possible
valid use for such a list.

On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
>
> It is you that is confused.
>
> As I am banned from editing Wikipedia I have no choice but to complain
> here.
>
> I am not interested in being the firend of anyone here, it is simply try
> to get
> you to act in a manner which shows the slightest hint of integrity.
>
> From: "Charles Matthews" <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> Date sent: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:22:20 +0100
> Send reply to: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>
> > John Bradley wrote
> >
> >
> > > He is stalking. I have been nformed that keepingtrack of users is bad
> > > form,
> > > atleast if I do it.
> >
> > I think you're confusing two things: an open watchlist, and what would
> be a
> > deprecated use of it, namely following someone around the site.
> >
> > I think you're also confusing the right of appeal to this list for
> > unblocking, which often enough gets a sympathetic response, with
> bringing up
> > grievances in a way that is not going to win any friends.
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> Yours
>
> John Bradley
>
> Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email: john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk <http://www.ontobus.co.uk>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
Have you asked Matt?

On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> I would like to request the following page be deleted
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
> arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
>                Yours
>
>                John Bradley
>
> Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: John Bradley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.

Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
From:           	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
To:             	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Copies to:      	Send reply to:  	MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> Have you asked Matt?
>
> On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> > I would like to request the following page be deleted
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a list of
> > things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates the
> > arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
> >                Yours
> >
> >                John Bradley
> >
> > Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
> > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Page delete request.

body:
John Bradley wrote:
> So in other words I do have to put up with it.

You don't have to put up with anything.  You can find
other projects to work on.

RickK

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Remove Wikicode

body:
David Gerard wrote:
> Erik Moeller (erik_moeller at gmx.de) [050423 11:57]:
>
>
>>There is a basic static HTML dumper in the current CVS version of
>>MediaWiki: maintenance/dumpHTML.php - see Tim Starling's mailing list
>>post on it:
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-April/028741.html
>
>
>
> What issues would be involved in backporting this to 1.4.x? Tim?
>
> (Playing with Wikimedia DB dumps at present.)

Backporting is trivial compared to fixing the other issues I listed.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: mm

subject: [Wikitech-l] ERROR at line 1035:

body:
Neubig,
Thanks for your help.
I was surprised about the time of the rest of the file processing.
It was 40 minutes for 249 lines.
For the first 1035 it was 100 minutes.
Anyway I did it.
Thanks again,
Mircea


from_name: Michael P. Hopcroft

subject: [WikiEN-l] Fact check/Copyediting request

body:
I was wondering if someone could do soem fact-checking, copyediting and
expansion for me on the following new articles:

Goldschmidt Sex Scandal
Portand Tribune
Kendra James
Dwight Jaynes
Phil Sanford
J.E. Clark

I need additional ifnromation for the article on Sam Adams (Oeegon
Poltiican), which is essentially a stub, and to expand the article on
Vera Katz.

Michael Hopcroft


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Conference report from South Africa

body:
Thanks a lot to both of you for the good report and spreading the word ;-)

Now, good luck with cleaning one week mail :-)

ant

Angela a ?crit:
> This is a brief report from the FLOSS Conference in South Africa that
> Erik and I attended this week. A more detailed version is on Meta at
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Conference_reports/FLOSS%2C_South_Africa_2005>;
> so please read that one instead if you have time.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Conference report from South Africa


subject: [Wiktionary-l] Re: Conference report from South Africa


from_name: Jack Lutz

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
So to recap, an ArbCom member has launched personal attacks against a
user he ruled on and told them to essentially fuck off if they don't
like it; another has called the user illiterate; another has taken it
upon himself to say that the community "will not allow you". No matter
how frustrating they may find this person, how is this helpful to the
community?


from_name: David 'DJ' Hedley

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
It is his User Area. He isn't violating any rules, so he can keep it if he
so desires.

You should contact Matt Crypto, I don't see any reason for it to be deleted
by admins as it is his property.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Bradley" <john at ontobus.co.uk>
To: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>; "English Wikipedia"
<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

> No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
>
>
> Date sent:      Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
> From:           MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> To:             English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Subject:        Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> Copies to:      Send reply to:  MacGyverMagic/Mgm
<macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
>   English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
>
> > Have you asked Matt?
> >
> > On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I would like to request the following page be deleted
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a
list of
> > > things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates
the
> > > arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
> > >                Yours
> > >
> > >                John Bradley
> > >
> > > Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > > Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
> > > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > > WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> Yours
>
> John Bradley
>
> Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
He is stalking. I have been nformed that keepingtrack of users is bad form,
atleast if I do it.

As far as I am concerned it is an attack on me.

From:           	"David 'DJ' Hedley" <spyders at btinternet.com>
To:             	"English Wikipedia" <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>

Subject:        	Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
Date sent:      	Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:05:56 +0100
Send reply to:  	English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
	<mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>

> It is his User Area. He isn't violating any rules, so he can keep it if he
> so desires.
>
> You should contact Matt Crypto, I don't see any reason for it to be deleted
> by admins as it is his property.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Bradley" <john at ontobus.co.uk>
> To: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>; "English Wikipedia"
> <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
>
>
> > No and I don't intend to. I have to put up with enough crap already.
> >
> >
> > Date sent:      Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:09:49 +0200
> > From:           MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>
> > To:             English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > Subject:        Re: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.
> > Copies to:      Send reply to:  MacGyverMagic/Mgm
> <macgyvermagic at gmail.com>,
> >   English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
> > <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > <mailto:wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org?subject=subscribe>
> >
> > > Have you asked Matt?
> > >
> > > On 4/24/05, John Bradley <john at ontobus.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > I would like to request the following page be deleted
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto/list. It seems to be a
> list of
> > > > things I have created. It was created on 12:23, 2005 Apr 19 post dates
> the
> > > > arbcomm case. I find Matt Crypto's interest in me worrying.
> > > >                Yours
> > > >
> > > >                John Bradley
> > > >
> > > > Loc:    Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > > > Phone:  +44 (0)151 708 7238
> > > > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > > > WWW:    www.ontobus.co.uk
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > John Bradley
> >
> > Loc: Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
> > Phone: +44 (0)151 708 7238
> > Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
> > WWW: www.ontobus.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

		Yours

		John Bradley

Loc: 	Flat 15/22 Gambier Terrace, Liverpool, L1 7BL, UK.
Phone:	+44 (0)151 708 7238
Email:  john at ontobus.co.uk
WWW:	www.ontobus.co.uk


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 04:03:25PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:
> Free will and being able to control you sub conscious and it's needs are not
> the same thing at all.
>
> The idea of lowering myself to the level of the average wikipedian is not
> appealing. That most of them don't appear to be hear for Wikipedias stated
> aims but for some other aims. I do not wish to join the "Wikipedia
> community", I wish to help produce an encyclopedia, and seeing as one of
> the most annoying features of wikipedians is their tendrncy to claim to
> speak for everyone in the community when try to brow beat. I have no
> intention of bolstering  the numbers they can claim to command/speak for.
>

If someone claims to speak for "the Wikipedia community", that is that
person's failing, not yours.  Clearly, nobody speaks for every single
individual person that makes up the "community".  You are, however,
already effectively a member of that "community" by virtue of the fact
that you make edits to articles in Wikipedia and complain on the mailing
list about perceived slights.  It looks like whatever your problem is
with interacting with other people, you've failed in avoiding it.

You'll capture more flies with honey than vinegar.  If you simply A)
politely bring your complaint to the attention of the person whose
behavior you dislike and B) assume good faith for first assessments of
the reasons for behavior, you'll get a lot farther toward getting "your
way", and will get there much faster.  You should realize, though, that
this doesn't mean that everyone in the world will automatically adopt
your wishes as his or her life purpose.  Sometimes, people do things
entirely for their own reasons and are unwilling to change that behavior
just because someone else dislikes it.  Sometimes, you'll just have to
accept the fact that other people have as much a right to control their
own lives as you do yours.

I haven't read the page(s) in question, but from what I've seen here in
the mailing list it looks like someone's just keeping track of the edits
of certain Wikipedians (defined here as "those who are repeat-editors
with identifiable identities") for no malicious purpose.  Despite that,
it seems, you object.  Considering that your actions in editing
Wikipedia are public, it's difficult for me to sympathize with your
desire to have someone chastised and to impose your will on someone
else's behavior such that he or she can no longer view public actions in
the manner of his or her choosing.  In particular, your simple
unwillingness to ASK POLITELY that the person in question simply desist
really boggles my mind.  Perhaps you never got the cooperation lecture
from your parents/guardians when growing up.

Granted, I could be misreading this entire set of circumstances based on
my limited exposure to it.

> The idea of losing my integrity and taking part in a ritual is unpleasant, and
> as far as I can tell that's what this is.
>

What does being willing to try to work out differences rather than being
an obstinate, stubborn problem child have to do with losing integrity?

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


subject: [WikiEN-l] Page delete request.

body:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 06:47:53PM +0100, John Bradley wrote:

[in reference to helping produce Wikipedia and avoiding joining the
"community" being mutually exclusive]

> They aren't incompatible in the real world.
>

Actually . . . considering that being a regular editor of Wikipedia
pretty much makes you a community member (albeit, in your case, a
cantankerous, contentious, antisocial community member), I'm inclined to
disagree with you.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]