from_name: Fastfission

body:
Still, it would be ideal if at some point such database dumps could be
filtered by namespace. It would be even more ideal if image
downloading could be filtered by use -- that is, you could download
images that were only used in the article namespace. But of course I
have no illusions that this would be an easy thing to implement.

FF

On 11/23/05, Justin Cormack <justin at specialbusservice.com> wrote:
>
> On 22 Nov 2005, at 16:27, John Lee wrote:
>
> > Thue Janus Kristensen wrote:
> >
> >> I have created a proposal which would allow the use of non-free
> >> images
> >> in special cases outside the encyclopedia.
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Licensing_for_community_images
> >>
> >> Please CC any replies to me, I am not on this mailing list
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> en:User:Thue
> >>
> > I would support this unless some sort of justification for "free
> > images only at all times" policy is provided. The existing photo of
> > me on my userpage is released under a free licence, and I have no
> > intention of changing that barring extenuating circumstances. I
> > would just like for other users to have the freedom to use an
> > unfree-image as long as it is not used in the encyclopedia itself.
> > There is no point for mirrors to keep our userpages anyhow, and
> > many users when relicencing their contributions under another
> > licence add a notice to the effect of "I relicence all my
> > contributions except my userpage under the following licence". I
> > believe the right exists for non-free content (as long as it's not
> > a copyvio) to be used on userpages.
>
> There is a point in mirrors having userspace. user talk includes
> documentation of the process of building
> the encyclopaedia outside article talk, and User is just like the
> biographical info about contributors
> that you get with a traditional encyclopaedia.
>
> If people dont want their pictures free, they dont have o add them.
> They can always link to an external site.
>
> Justinc
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


list: wikien-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Rex

subject: [WikiEN-l] Some Wikipedia writers cover up for Nazism on Wikipedia

body:
 There are some regular writers on Wikipedia who knowingly engage in
personal attacks and deletions (even of links) of anyone who explains the
connection between Edward Bellamy and his cousin Francis Bellamy (author of
the pledge of allegiance) and National Socialism. Some of the worst
falsifiers on Wikipedia are Stormie, Lupo, and Matt Crypto. They were
challenged to respond to the facts that they suppressed or to concede, and
they each conceded that the facts that they suppress are correct and that
they delete those facts because they do not want Wikipedia readers to know
the truth. They constantly spam their own point of view in their diatribes
in which they try to cover up for Nazism. It is behavior that breaks
Wikipedia's rules. What kind of people cover-up for Nazis and that horrid
ideology?

Many regular writers on Wikipedia are intellectually dishonest  and they
regurgitate the top media cover-ups.  They cover up many historic photos of
the Pledge of Allegiance http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html that reveal its
original straight-arm salute.  They cover up the fact that the author of the
Pledge of Allegiance (Francis Bellamy), and his cousin and cohort (Edward
Bellamy), were National Socialists and supported the "Nationalism" movement,
the "Nationalist" magazine, the "Nationalist Educational Association," their
dogma of "military socialism," and Edward inspired the "Nationalist Party."
They cover up the Pledge's straight-arm salute as the origin
http://rexcurry.net/pledge1.html of the salute of the National Socialist
German Workers' Party (Nazis). As part of the cover up, they perpetuate the
myth http://rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html that the straight-arm salute was
from ancient Rome.  They cover up discoveries by the historian Rex Curry.
The Pledge began with a military salute that then stretched outward toward
the flag. Historic photographs are at http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html and
at http://rexcurry.net/pledge_military.html showing the evolution of the
gesture. Due to the way that both gestures were used, the military salute
led to the Nazi salute. The Nazi salute
http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html is an extended military
salute. A mnemonic device is the swastika ("Hakenkreuz" in German).
Although the swastika was an ancient symbol, it was also used sometimes by
German National Socialists to represent "S" letters for their "socialism."
Hitler altered his own signature
http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html to use the same stylized
"S" letter for "socialist." Wikipedia's fibbers cover up for the swastika
http://rexcurry.net/swastikanews.html and its use as a sick socialist
symbol. Wikipedia's dissemblers cover up for the National Socialist German
Worker's Party http://rexcurry.net/swastikamedia.html by overuse of the
hackneyed shorthand "Nazi."  Many Wikipedia posters are propagandists in
that there was no "Nazi Party" because it was actually the "National
Socialist German Workers' Party" and the party members did not call
themselves "Nazis" nor the "Nazi Party."  The term "Nazi" developed from
slang using the first syllable in the German pronunciation of the "National
Socialist German Workers' Party."  In that sense, the author of the Pledge
of Allegiance was a "Nazi" too, in that the term means "National Socialist."
The term "Nazi" is also used to hide the National Socialist dogma behind the
Pledge of Allegiance, its original gesture, and the National Socialist
German Workers' Party.

Wikipedia's cons use the term "Nazi" and the misnomer "Nazi Party" to
cover-up the horrors of socialism. Wikipedia's falsifiers cover up the the
socialist trio of atrocities and and their socialist Wholecaust (of which
the Holocaust was a part): 62 million people were slaughtered under the
former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; 35 million were slaughtered
under the Peoples' Republic of China; 21 million were slaughtered under the
National Socialist German Workers' Party. They cover up the fact that
socialists helped start WWII with the National Socialist German Workers'
Party and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics together
http://rexcurry.net/socialistwar.html as allies in 1939. They cover up for
and are deniers of the socialist Wholecaust,
http://rexcurry.net/mediacoverup.html of which the monstrous Holocaust was a
part.

Liars on Wikipedia repeat common lies http://rexcurry.net/mediapledge.html
of the media. http://rexcurry.net/socialistmedia.html

Wikipedia should not be cited for support because it is no different than
quoting various anonymous sources who have no knowledge of the topic
http://rexcurry.net/wikipedialies.html or who have fibs to spread about the
topic.

The Wikipedia article for the "Roman salute" used to be complete
disinformation, deliberately maintained by phonies who tried to perpetuate
myths.  Here is an excerpt of what Wikipedia used to carry: "The Roman
salute is a closed finger, flat-palm-down hand raised at an angle (usually
45 degrees) and was used by the Roman Republic. It was also the historical
civilian salute of the United States, from 1787?-1934?, known since 1892 as
the Bellamy salute. It was also the historical salute among armies of the
Middle East and South America. When the Nazi party of Germany adopted the
Roman salute from the Italian fascists."  Wikipedia liars also used the
painting "The Oath of the Horatii" http://rexcurry.net/pledgehoratii.html as
absurd support for a Roman connection.  The foregoing is all incorrect and
of course without any attribution nor support on the Wikipedia page because
there is no support. It is not a Roman salute

Similar criticisms apply to the Wikipedia pages on Francis Bellamy, Edward
Bellamy and the Pledge of Allegiance.

Recently, someone who posts to Wikipedia wised up and improved the "Roman
salute" article some, while other pledge related articles are as bad as
ever.

Wikipedia falsifiers use the misnomer "public schools" when they mean
"government schools" and they both cover-up the Bellamys' desire to promote
a government takeover of education, a desire to end all of the better
alternatives, and to impose socialism (and what the Bellamys called
"military socialism") within government schools.  The Bellamys loved the
military and wanted all of society to ape the military.  Those points also
help explain why Francis Bellamy enjoyed starting the pledge with a military
salute.


list: foundation-l

from_name: Anthere

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
ilooy wrote:
> 2005/11/23, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com>:
>
>>Hi Jay,
>>In your analysis, would you consider it a problem if some of the (N)
>>native speakers do not have any accounts on any wikimedia project and
>>are likely to be sockpuppets ? Or not at all ?
>
>
> Hi Anthere,
> I find it of interest that everytime the
> number of supporters increases by one
> so does the number of opposers (and
> by one at that), and if there is a problem
> with sockpuppetry, that it is happening
> on both sides.

Nod. I think the whole vote is unclear. I absolutely agree.

> I feel this is a very politically charged
> situation. I only want to add my voice
> in support of the right of Andalusians
> to have their own voice in this Wikipedia
> project. I am not interested in politics
> of any sort. And regret the situation
> which has developed with the Andalusian
> language request.

So do I :-(

> The matter should be about granting
> folks who want to contribute in their
> own language to this project the priviledge
> to do so, I'm sure you'd agree. And not
> about how people are bypassing conventions
> on voting practices.

nod.

> I do not like the sockpuppetry concerning
> this request for a new language, but I think
> it is indeed happening on both sides, and
> not just on this respective language request
> but also with others on the same page.

nod

> Strong guidelines would alleviate some
> of this, but may create other problems.
> For example the rule that languages must
> have an established standard written form,
> it may give guidance in respect to Andalusian,
> but it would also mean calling into question
> some already started wikipedia languages.
>
> It is definitely not an easy situation. I don't
> want to get involved in politics. And I believe
> fairness, growth and quality would be the
> goal for this project.
>
> With best regards,
> Jay B.
> [[User:ILVI]]

Agree all along with you... sigh

So, is there someone to start a proposal on meta and maybe we can hack
it out there ?

Ant


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] [WikiEN-l] Status of article rating feature?

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>>> So. What's up with Special:Validate?
>> It's on my list for this week, I'll see about getting it turned on and
>> working.
>
> I'm tweaking, fixing, and reworking various bits of it (display
> formatting fixes, better code reuse, using revision IDs instead of
> unreliable timestamps in places, etc).
>
> Will try to have it ready to try out tomorrowish.

Between the image server and still unpacking furniture I haven't quite finished
the validation stuff yet. Unfortunately I'm still finding some XSS-style
security holes (which could eg be used to compromise a sysop account by sending
them to a specially-crafted link which uses JavaScript to perform actions on the
wiki under their behalf).

So it definitely won't be going live until I've done a thorough security review
as well as fixing up the revision stuff.

Also, there's been some muttering that turning this on will warrant/require a
press release or some other sort of big publicity. I currently can't give any
specific date for having it done or for turning it on once its ready. Sighhhhhhh...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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from_name: Pawe³ Dembowski

subject: [Foundation-l] RE:New language policy

body:
> Mexican Spanish is markedly different from Andalusian.
> Actually Puerto Rican, Cuban and Dominican and
> others in the Caribean are much more like Andalusian.
> They exhibit similar language traits and are historically
> descended from Andalusian.

Are the differences much bigger than between British and American
English? Are texts in Andalusian intelligible to Castilian speakers?

--
Ausir


subject: [Foundation-l] RE:New language policy


from_name: Jakob

subject:
[Foundation-l] FW: [DIGLIB] Library of Congress plans world digital
	library

body:
Hi,

Her are some other people also trying to collect the knowledge of the
world. We should get more in contact with them (for instance a
presentation by LOC's activities at Wikimania 2006).

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Kuny [mailto:terry at kuny.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 23,
2005 4:04 AM
To: DIGLIB
Subject: [DIGLIB] Library of Congress plans world digital library

Library of Congress plans world digital library
22 Nov 2005  02:08 ET

By Eric Auchard

SAN FRANCISCO, Nov 21 (Reuters) - The U.S. Library of Congress is
kicking off a campaign on Tuesday to work with other nation's libraries
to build a World Digital Library, starting with a $3 million donation
from Google Inc.

Librarian of Congress James Billington said he is looking to attract
further private funding to develop bilingual projects, featuring
millions of unique objects, with libraries in China, India, the Muslim
world and other nations.

This builds on major existing digital documentary projects by the
Library of Congress -- one preserving an online record of Americana and
another documenting ties between the United States and Brazil, France,
the Netherlands, Russia and Spain.

"The World Digital Library is an attempt to go beyond Europe and the
Americas...into cultures where the majority of the world is,"
Billington told Reuters in a telephone interview.

As an example, Billington said the Library of Congress is in
discussions with the national library of Egypt to include a collection
of great Islamic scientific works from the 10th through the 16th
Century in the World Digital Library.

"We are trying to do a documentary record of other great cultures of
the world. How much we will be able to do will depend on how many
additional partners we attract," he said.
Over the past decade, the American Memory Project of the Library of
Congress has digitized more than ten million items to create a
documentary record of Americana. A link is located at:
http://www.loc.gov/memory/.

These include manuscripts, maps, audiovisual recordings, cartoons,
caricatures, posters, documentary photographs, music, and, to a lesser
extent, historic books. The World Digital Library would draw on a
similar variety of multimedia objects.

A second project, known as the Global Gateway and introduced in 2000,
involves collaborations with five national libraries in Europe and
Brazil that focus on documenting ties between each of those countries
and U.S. culture.

(http://international.loc.gov/intldl/find/digital_collaborations.html/)

GLOBAL CULTURES
By contrast, the World Digital Library will focus on creating records
of global cultures. The Library of Congress will contribute its own
body of works to a blended collection with other countries. More than
half of the printed volumes in the Library of Congress are in languages
other than English.

"It will deal with the culture of those people rather than with our
contacts as Americans with those cultures," Billington said.

Web search company Google has agreed to work with the Library of
Congress on developing standards for indexing the digital collections
and by providing computer equipment.

The Library of Congress push adds momentum to a variety of competing
projects by leading Internet companies and some of the world's greatest
libraries to make available online a range of historic literature,
audio recordings and film archives.

The plans unveiled over the past year mark the most sustained drive yet
to make good on the vision of Internet pioneers to open the world's
library collections to a global online audience. The dream suffered
from a lack of funding and the distractions of the dot-com era's
get-rick-quick schemes.

Among these are a major push by Google with five major academic
libraries to digitize their book collections.

Meanwhile, the Open Content Alliance, backed by Yahoo Inc. , Microsoft
Corp. , the non-profit Internet Archive and other major libraries, is
looking to create an online clearinghouse for historic books, audio and
films.

The Google Print project has been met with lawsuits by the New
York-based Authors Guild and five U.S. publishers who are seeking to
block Google's plan to create an online card catalog of copyright works
in the collections of its library partners.

(Editing by Anthony Barker. Tel: +1 415 677 3919;
eric.auchard at reuters.com)


subject: [Foundation-l] A proposal for new language creation

body:
daniwo59 wrote:
> In fact, their study proved that we are the most linguistically  diverse
> site on the Internet. They want to work with us, and are developing a  new
> coding system for languages that will cover approx. 25,000 languages and
> dialects.

And people think the "other languages" sections get too long now... ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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body:
daniwo59 wrote:
> In fact, their study proved that we are the most linguistically  diverse
> site on the Internet. They want to work with us, and are developing a  new
> coding system for languages that will cover approx. 25,000 languages and
> dialects.

And people think the "other languages" sections get too long now... ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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body:
daniwo59 wrote:
> In fact, their study proved that we are the most linguistically  diverse
> site on the Internet. They want to work with us, and are developing a  new
> coding system for languages that will cover approx. 25,000 languages and
> dialects.

And people think the "other languages" sections get too long now... ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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body:
daniwo59 wrote:
> In fact, their study proved that we are the most linguistically  diverse
> site on the Internet. They want to work with us, and are developing a  new
> coding system for languages that will cover approx. 25,000 languages and
> dialects.

And people think the "other languages" sections get too long now... ;)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: User Jcb deleting articles in ia.wikipedia.org

body:
I think that was basically my point -- that deletion of articles is at
the discretion of the individual admin, and if people disagree, he
should be de-admined rather than blocked.

With the extra power of sysophood comes extra responsibility; however
if you abuse it you should simply lose the extra responsibility rather
than being banned altogether.

Mark

On 23/11/05, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> You are talking of jcb I presume...
>
> An admin can unblock himself (as many of us discovered when we tried to
> block ourselves in the middle of a heavy wikistress crisis), so blocking
> an admin will not solve anything.
>
> Oscar made a good suggestion in saying you should rather start a
> procedure for de-admining. Since Jcb seems of good will, I do not think
> it is necessary to de-admin him temporarily. I do not think you have the
> right to ban him.
>
> Imho, mostly, it seems there is a technical issue and you should talk
> with a developer about it. Can you show previous numbers of articles ?
>
> Please do not start a war with Mark on the issue :-( Oscar is probably
> ready to help you as a neutral party on ia. If he does not have the
> time, just ask if anyone else could help you figure out the mess...
>
> ant
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [WikiEN-l] Suggestion for Category links

body:
[note cross-posting and prune as appropriate]

How difficult would it be to add <<title>> attributes to the Category links
which appear at the bottom of articles?

I was thinking it might be a good idea to have some way to display the "sort
key" without having to delve into edit mode, so I wondered if this could be
displayed as a "tool-tip" when hovering over the link, in the same way as
the destination article is shown for a regular wikilink. Is this an idea
which might be helpful, or am I getting punch-drunk after a difficult day?
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]


from_name: Stephen Bain

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Deletion and the Sabbath (was Wikipedia's provable
	anti-expertise bias)

body:
On 11/23/05, Michael Snow <wikipedia at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Phil Boswell wrote:
>
> >AFD is like the Sabbath: it was intended to serve Wikipedia, not the other
> >way around.
> >
> So, perhaps we should simply delete every seventh article?

I think it means that one should wikibreak from AfD every seventh day.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

body:
Hi

Jumping in on this discussion, a few of us met with a group of linguists in
Tunisia who are revising the language codes to create a far more complex and
inclusive system that will include dialects, spoken and written forms, etc.
These linguists represent academic institutions in Europe and Japan, and are
acutely aware of the issues that come under discussion here.

I'll start by saying how pleased they were with the multilingualism of
Wikipedia. In fact, their study proved that we are the most linguistically  diverse
site on the Internet. They want to work with us, and are developing a  new
coding system for languages that will cover approx. 25,000 languages and
dialects. With their advice and support, I believe that in a short time we will  be
able to resolve many of these issues once and for all. And they are extremely
interested in cooperating with us.

I will be communicating with them next week, and will report further.

Danny


from_name: Jürgen Herz

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Brute force image server upgrade

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>> Data's finally all done copying (gar, what overloaded servers those were
>> :P), arranging stuff now to set up the new server in use.
>
> Up and running!
>
> There's 2.5 terabytes free on the server's disk array so we should be
> set for a few more months at least. ;)

That reads fine and the experience is quite fast. Thanks for the work!
What I don't understand is why Ganglia only shows ~ 3.3 TB of disk_total
 while there should be about 4.8 TB.

> When we rearrange the image storage system there should be much less
> need to hit the disk over NFS, so that should go down in the future to
> make further room for real growth.

Can I read something about that planned rearrange anywhere?

Regards,
J?rgen


from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>ilooy wrote:
>
>
>>I'd like to suggest that taking into consideration ISO codes or SIL codes may
>>be one solution. This would mean that an outside group which is well
>>established and has looked into the matter has deemed a certain language
>>important enough to be assigned a separate code.
>>
>>
>This is exactly the policy we adopted several years ago, which has proved
>insufficient.
>
>Relying on existence of ISO codes brings us:
>* split Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian replacing Serbocroatian [controverial]
>* Klingon
>etc
>
>and denies various languages/dialects/whatever which don't have their own codes
>but which are oft asked for.
>
Clearly we should not rely exclusively on the codes for our decisions,
but they do give a first slice in the decision making process,
particularly if used as an exclusionary tool.  There should still be an
opportunity for those who are excluded to make a case.

IIRC the Ethnologue criterion for including a constructed language is
the the existence of literary works in that language.  They recognize 24
such languages. Yes, there are people with the kind of mentality that
will create a literature in Klingon or Elvish.  A better criterion for
us would be the existence of native speakers.  Another might be to ask
who is the audience for this new language project.  What interests the
readers rather than the writers?  What practical information would serve
them best?  What cultural support will best help their culture?

For the Serbocroatian and other politically charged situations it is
very difficult to avoid the political traps unless you are willing to
say "This is the way it's going to be," right from the beginning.

The other thing that is not addressed is the need for a critical mass.
There are many individuals for whom the challenge is in having the
project in their language approved.  When they win the fight they lose
interest, so for me the two-tier involves a fairly easy hurdle to get a
project started followed by a probationary period where they can prove
that there really is enough interest to keep it going.

Ec


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [WikiEN-l] How is validation supposed to work?

body:
stevertigo wrote:

> Without having read anything specific yet (why speak
> from knowledge, when I can speak for the much larger
> opposing constituency):

That's really stupid. You've probably wasted half an hour and several
paragraphs on something you've given good reasons to ignore.

(This is an assumption of good faith, AGF being a rephrasing of "don't
assume malice when stupidity will suffice.")

-d.


body:
Andrew Gray wrote:
> On 23/11/05, Ilya N. <ilyanep at gmail.com> wrote:

>>Consider a bot (or many humans) going into the validation system and sending
>>totally bogus (or even offensive) entries into it.

> My understanding of the validation feature was that it was a
> "0,1,2,3,4,5 - pick one" type system, rather than a "Please leave
> comments" one, meaning that whilst you could game it with a bot - and
> no doubt that'll be attempted by a rather cunning linkspammer or three
> - you couldn't fill it with offensive entries. (Or will there be a
> comments field? My connection seems to be a bit unfriendly with meta.
> this morning, and I haven't been checking lately...)

There's a comment space too.

> But that's what the testing phase is for. We _want_ people to try and
> spam it, try to vandalise it, do all this stuff. Then we can figure
> out what's good in the validation system and what's bad - perhaps we
> could only make comments visible to logged-in users, or to admins, if
> there's a problem with junk filling them up, or implement a filter to
> only show "useful" comments.

Yep. This is why we haven't fixed the rules of this game of Calvinball.

- d.


from_name: Puddl Duk

body:
On 11/22/05, stevertigo <vertigosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Heck, let them
> > do it through an article
> > validation feature.
>
> Open question:
>
> * How is the validation feature supposed to work?
> * How is it to be refined?
> * How is the data to be used and processed?
> * How is such data going to be reinput to work on the
> wiki to produce results?
>
> SV
>

some predictions and some comments that relate to above;

1)  the current validate feature is a prototype design. Once it is
turned on it will be played with, improved, revised and redesigned
several times before being used for its intended purpose. Turning on
the feature will help this process move forward.

2)  Wikipedia needs a way to identify article versions that are high
quality and vetted, possible as part of a release system, or something
similiar. Reliability is one of our biggest problems. If we don't
address this someone else will. A validation feature if a good first
step.


from_name: Thue Janus Kristensen

subject: [Fwd: Re: [WikiEN-l] Licensing for community images]

body:
The point made by Justinc has merit. Allowing mirrors to redistribute user
pages and user talk pages serves as biographical info and documents the
process of building the encyclopedia.

My first thought was to change the proposal to allow reuse of the images
with the condition that the pages they are used in are substantially
unchanged (there is no legitimate reason to distribute a substantially
changed version of my user page). However, this modified proposal would
still cause problems with the use of images on talk pages, and there are
legitimate reasons for the distribution of substantially changed versions of
talk pages (like continuing the debate in a fork of Wikipedia).

So after some though, I have decided to not modify the proposal, but let it
stand as it is. The use of non-redistributable community images is intended
to be limited, and the impact of a mirror not having the image of me on
their copy of my user page is small.

Regards
-Thue

On 22 Nov 2005, at 16:27, John Lee wrote:
>
> > Thue Janus Kristensen wrote:
> >
> >> I have created a proposal which would allow the use of non-free
> >> images
> >> in special cases outside the encyclopedia.
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Licensing_for_community_images
> >>
> >> Please CC any replies to me, I am not on this mailing list
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> en:User:Thue
> >>
> > I would support this unless some sort of justification for "free
> > images only at all times" policy is provided. The existing photo of
> > me on my userpage is released under a free licence, and I have no
> > intention of changing that barring extenuating circumstances. I
> > would just like for other users to have the freedom to use an
> > unfree-image as long as it is not used in the encyclopedia itself.
> > There is no point for mirrors to keep our userpages anyhow, and
> > many users when relicencing their contributions under another
> > licence add a notice to the effect of "I relicence all my
> > contributions except my userpage under the following licence". I
> > believe the right exists for non-free content (as long as it's not
> > a copyvio) to be used on userpages.
>
> There is a point in mirrors having userspace. user talk includes
> documentation of the process of building
> the encyclopaedia outside article talk, and User is just like the
> biographical info about contributors
> that you get with a traditional encyclopaedia.
>
> If people dont want their pictures free, they dont have o add them.
> They can always link to an external site.
>
> Justinc
>
>
>


body:
Nobody who has argued against my proposal has stated so explicitly,
but I just realised that the reason why people are opposed to it is
that they are afraid that it will turn into a free-for-all for
non-free content.

A way to address this is to add a requirement to the proposal that
only images which has some element of privacy (such as an image of
myself on my userpage) should fall under the proposal. I don't see any
reason not to restrict the proposal in this way, so I will edit the
page once I am actually able to get through to Wikipedia :).

Mvh
-Thue

On 11/23/05, Thue Janus Kristensen <thuejk at gmail.com> wrote:
> The point made by Justinc has merit. Allowing mirrors to redistribute user
> pages and user talk pages serves as biographical info and documents the
> process of building the encyclopedia.
>
> My first thought was to change the proposal to allow reuse of the images
> with the condition that the pages they are used in are substantially
> unchanged (there is no legitimate reason to distribute a substantially
> changed version of my user page). However, this modified proposal would
> still cause problems with the use of images on talk pages, and there are
> legitimate reasons for the distribution of substantially changed versions of
> talk pages (like continuing the debate in a fork of Wikipedia).
>
> So after some though, I have decided to not modify the proposal, but let it
> stand as it is. The use of non-redistributable community images is intended
> to be limited, and the impact of a mirror not having the image of me on
> their copy of my user page is small.
>
> Regards
> -Thue
>
>
>
> > On 22 Nov 2005, at 16:27, John Lee wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Thue Janus Kristensen wrote:
> > >
> > >> I have created a proposal which would allow the use of non-free
> > >> images
> > >> in special cases outside the encyclopedia.
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Licensing_for_community_images
> >
> > >>
> > >> Please CC any replies to me, I am not on this mailing list
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >> en:User:Thue
> > >>
> > > I would support this unless some sort of justification for "free
> > > images only at all times" policy is provided. The existing photo of
> > > me on my userpage is released under a free licence, and I have no
> > > intention of changing that barring extenuating circumstances. I
> > > would just like for other users to have the freedom to use an
> > > unfree-image as long as it is not used in the encyclopedia itself.
> > > There is no point for mirrors to keep our userpages anyhow, and
> > > many users when relicencing their contributions under another
> > > licence add a notice to the effect of "I relicence all my
> > > contributions except my userpage under the following licence". I
> > > believe the right exists for non-free content (as long as it's not
> > > a copyvio) to be used on userpages.
> >
> > There is a point in mirrors having userspace. user talk includes
> > documentation of the process of building
> > the encyclopaedia outside article talk, and User is just like the
> > biographical info about contributors
> > that you get with a traditional encyclopaedia.
> >
> > If people dont want their pictures free, they dont have o add them.
> > They can always link to an external site.
> >
> > Justinc
> >
> >
> >
>
>


subject:
[Foundation-l] FW: [DIGLIB] Library of Congress plans world
	digital library

body:
For us I think there is a positioning issue to be resolved.  It would
certainly make sense to have some kind of presentation at Wikimania
2006.  What can we do to inject sustained added value in our projects to
keep them from becoming overwhelmed?  What will keep them different?
How can we ensure that the worth of volunteerism is properly credited,
or that what already belongs to the public does not become entangled in
a web of copyrights.

Ec

Jakob wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Her are some other people also trying to collect the knowledge of the
> world. We should get more in contact with them (for instance a
> presentation by LOC's activities at Wikimania 2006).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Kuny [mailto:terry at kuny.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 23,
> 2005 4:04 AM
> To: DIGLIB
> Subject: [DIGLIB] Library of Congress plans world digital library
>
> Library of Congress plans world digital library
> 22 Nov 2005  02:08 ET
>
> By Eric Auchard
>
> SAN FRANCISCO, Nov 21 (Reuters) - The U.S. Library of Congress is
> kicking off a campaign on Tuesday to work with other nation's
> libraries to build a World Digital Library, starting with a $3 million
> donation from Google Inc.

. . .


body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>> That reads fine and the experience is quite fast. Thanks for the work!
>> What I don't understand is why Ganglia only shows ~ 3.3 TB of disk_total
>>  while there should be about 4.8 TB.
>
> The RAID eats up some of the raw disks' space with the redundancy. Either that
> or I've lost track of something. ;)

Hm, shouldn't 6 of 8 disks (8 - 1 for parity - 1 spare) per RAID be
available in a RAID 5? So each array should provide 2400 GB (2232 GiB,
don't know if Ganglia's GB really are GB or wrongly named GiB).

>> Can I read something about that planned rearrange anywhere?
>
> There's some notes scribbled at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/1.6_image_storage

Thanks

J?rgen


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
ilooy wrote:

>2005/11/23, Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com>:
>
>
>>Hi Jay,
>>In your analysis, would you consider it a problem if some of the (N)
>>native speakers do not have any accounts on any wikimedia project and
>>are likely to be sockpuppets ? Or not at all ?
>>
>>
>Hi Anthere,
>I find it of interest that everytime the
>number of supporters increases by one
>so does the number of opposers (and
>by one at that), and if there is a problem
>with sockpuppetry, that it is happening
>on both sides.
>
>I feel this is a very politically charged
>situation. I only want to add my voice
>in support of the right of Andalusians
>to have their own voice in this Wikipedia
>project. I am not interested in politics
>of any sort. And regret the situation
>which has developed with the Andalusian
>language request.
>
You can't have it both ways.  The whole issue of whether Andalusian is a
separate language or a dialect IS a matter of politics.  How can you
advocate like that and pretend it's not politics.

I don't by any means consider Ethnologue to be the last word on whether
a way of speaking qualifies as a language, but I do accept them as the
first word.  If we are to take a position contrary to theirs it should
be based on some realistic evidence.

>The matter should be about granting
>folks who want to contribute in their
>own language to this project the priviledge
>to do so, I'm sure you'd agree. And not
>about how people are bypassing conventions
>on voting practices.
>
Sure, but we need to be convinced that it IS a language, and not just a
dialect.  Voting is a stupid way to decide these things.  On one side we
have a group that is familiar with the "language", and which has the
political will to see its interests advanced.  On the other side is a
large group of people with no objective knowledge of the situation, and
that would like to hear the other side of the argument.  They are
prepared to wait until there are facts to work with.

>Strong guidelines would alleviate some
>of this, but may create other problems.
>For example the rule that languages must
>have an established standard written form,
>
I don't see this as a requirement that needs to be interpreted too strictly

>it may give guidance in respect to Andalusian,
>but it would also mean calling into question
>some already started wikipedia languages.
>
This could be a problem because it's difficult to get rid of a project
once it's started, no matter how ridiculous it is.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


from_name: stevertigo

body:
Yes, I think you sum up the basic issues pretty well,
Puddle Duk. But I can think of certain specific
reasons for why the approaches you've represented have
had only tepid support. I understand the idealistic
notions underlying the Wikipedia 1.0 idea, but the
concept of 'article validation' is only one aspect of
the overall value metrics that need to be worked out:

The relationship between article valuation (AV) and
editorial valuation (EV), though distinct enough to be
treated as separate, are far too interdependent to be
considered unrelated. And relevant to this discussion,
AV and EV aren't even operable without the other,
IMHO. The current idea seems to be a confusing mixture
of both AV and EV questions, but one which ignores or
avoids utilizing any synergy between the two, and
avoids EV ratings entirely. Hence, where's the
Yin-Yang?

With the final plans for Single Log-in being ironed
out, the next big thing wants to be AV/EV, but
convincing critics seems to depend on establishing a
clear plan for how the internals will work. Some
explanations of likely heuristic approaches would
help, and some consensus towards a general direction
might also help. IMHO, the 'lets mine this turnip and
hope we find gold' approach won't work. It's a
Murphy's Law, or something like it. Testing to see
what crap floats is indeed only useful for Calvinball.

That's the value-context for any critical comments
here, be it coming from a developer or not. Criticism
brings things to focus.

-SV

--- Puddl Duk <puddlduk at gmail.com> wrote:
> some predictions and some comments that relate to
above;
>
> 1)  the current validate feature is a prototype
design. Once it is
> turned on it will be played with, improved, revised
and redesigned
> several times before being used for its intended
purpose. Turning on
> the feature will help this process move forward.
>
> 2)  Wikipedia needs a way to identify article
> versions that are high
> quality and vetted, possible as part of a release
system, or something
> similiar. Reliability is one of our biggest
> problems. If we don't
> address this someone else will. A validation feature
if a good first step.

__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com


from_name: M. Creidieki Crouch

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Preserving GFDL requirements when splitting articles

body:
Okay, this debate has gotten very abstract, and no one seems to be
coming to any firm conclusions.  Let me try to be more concrete.

Current en practice is to simply place a note in the "edit summary"
field, to the effect of "this material copied from [[foo]]."

1)  Does anyone object to me codifying this practice in the documentation?
2)  If so, what other practice should I recommend instead?

-- Creidieki


body:
You are talking of jcb I presume...

An admin can unblock himself (as many of us discovered when we tried to
block ourselves in the middle of a heavy wikistress crisis), so blocking
an admin will not solve anything.

Oscar made a good suggestion in saying you should rather start a
procedure for de-admining. Since Jcb seems of good will, I do not think
it is necessary to de-admin him temporarily. I do not think you have the
right to ban him.

Imho, mostly, it seems there is a technical issue and you should talk
with a developer about it. Can you show previous numbers of articles ?

Please do not start a war with Mark on the issue :-( Oscar is probably
ready to help you as a neutral party on ia. If he does not have the
time, just ask if anyone else could help you figure out the mess...

ant


from_name: Jens Frank

body:
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 08:28:37PM +0100, J?rgen Herz wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:

>

> >> That reads fine and the experience is quite fast. Thanks for the work!

> >> What I don't understand is why Ganglia only shows ~ 3.3 TB of
disk_total
> >>  while there should be about 4.8 TB.

> >

> > The RAID eats up some of the raw disks' space with the redundancy.
Either that
> > or I've lost track of something. ;)

>

> Hm, shouldn't 6 of 8 disks (8 - 1 for parity - 1 spare) per RAID be

> available in a RAID 5? So each array should provide 2400 GB (2232 GiB,

> don't know if Ganglia's GB really are GB or wrongly named GiB).

Sorry, the wikitech page about amane was not up to date.

Current layout:

There are three SATA RAID controllers:

Ctl   Model        Ports   Drives   Units   NotOpt   RRate   VRate   BBU

------------------------------------------------------------------------

c0    9500S-8      8       8        1       0        4       4       OK

c1    9500S-8      8       8        1       0        4       4       OK

c2    7006-2       2       2        1       0        2       -       -

c2 is used for the OS, RAID 1, 60 GB.

c0 and c1 are the big array controllers:

Unit  UnitType  Status         %Cmpl  Stripe  Size(GB)  Cache  AVerify
IgnECC

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

u0    RAID-10   OK             -      64K     1490.07   ON     OFF      OFF

Port   Status           Unit   Size        Blocks        Serial

---------------------------------------------------------------

p0     OK               u0     372.61 GB   781422768     WD-WMAMY12171

p1     OK               u0     372.61 GB   781422768     WD-WMAMY12037

p2     OK               u0     372.61 GB   781422768     WD-WMAMY12168

p3     OK               u0     372.61 GB   781422768     WD-WMAMY12168

p4     OK               u0     372.61 GB   781422768     WD-WMAMY12168

p5     OK               u0     372.61 GB   781422768     WD-WMAMY12168

p6     OK               u0     372.61 GB   781422768     WD-WMAMY12025

p7     OK               u0     372.61 GB   781422768     WD-WMAMY12168

Name  OnlineState  BBUReady  Status    Volt     Temp     Hours  LastCapTest

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

bbu   On           Yes       OK        OK       High     0      xx-xxx-xxxx

On top of the two 1.5 TB RAID10's there's LVM, generating a striped RAID0

volume with 3TB capacity.

Bonnie reported these figures for this configuration:

               --------Sequential Output---------  ---Sequential Input---
--Random---
               -Per Char- ---Block--- --Rewrite--  -Per Char- ---Block---
--Seeks----
Machine    MB  K/sec %CPU K/sec  %CPU K/sec  %CPU  K/sec %CPU K/sec  %CPU
/sec  %CPU
amane    10000 59312 99.9 337711 84.0 101595 21.8  38235 66.8 179973 20.2
1583.2  2.6

real    10m46.529s

user    5m23.604s

sys     1m36.116s

This was the fastest available configuration with redundancy. Only RAID0 was
reading
faster. The server has 8GB memory, so 10GB test file size were chosen.

Regards,

        JeLuF

--
Lust, ein paar Euro nebenbei zu verdienen? Ohne Kosten, ohne Risiko!
Satte Provisionen f?r GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner


from_name: Manuel G R

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
ilooy wrote:
> 2005/11/23, Pawe? Dembowski <fallout at lexx.eu.org>:

>>Are the differences much bigger than between British and American
>>English? Are texts in Andalusian intelligible to Castilian speakers?

What text are you talking about? All the proposed spellings for the new
Wikipedia are intelligible to all Spanish speakers. I don't know of
published texts using those spellings. Of course, it is hard to read
your language in a totally new spelling, but it is almost a character
replacement pattern.

>
> Hi, Pawe?,
> The difference is quite obvious to
> someone who hears both Andalusian
> and Castilian. I truly believe an Andalusian
> language wiki should be formed.
>

I think you are basing your whole expirience in how different Andalusian
and Northern pronunciation has been to your ear. But take into account
that a stranger's understanding of an accent is handicapped. It happens
to me with English. I only understand Standard British and Standard
American speeches. The remaining accents are totally not understandable
to me. I have not any problem understanding Andalusians, nor any other
Spaniard has.

But language domain are not only based on pronunciation. Grammar,
syntax, lexicon... are categorical. And on that side, there are no
differences.

> Both American and British English have
> their own forms of speech, and there are
> quite varied regional differences, but most
> are usually understandable, there are of
> course some regional forms of speech
> in the UK that I have a really hard time
> understanding. I'm sure you probably do
> as well... maybe...

Would you support Wikipedias written in a new spelling tailored to those
regional speeches?

Greetings.
Manuel Gomez.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


from_name: GerardM

subject:
[Foundation-l] response of a prominent educator on the ban of
	schools and libraries of Wikipedia

body:
Hoi,
I have been given to share this with you
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Search_vs_Research_-_Marc_Prensky .

At the I&I conference in Lunteren the Netherlands, I was given by Marc.

Thanks,
   GerardM


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] response of a prominent educator on the ban of
	schools and libraries of Wikipedia


from_name: ilooy

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
2005/11/23, Pawe? Dembowski <fallout at lexx.eu.org>:
> > About conversion script, I don't think it would be useful. Most readers
> > will feel uncomfortable reading texts in a new spelling, even though
> > when that spelling matches best their speech. I don't know the details
> > about Chinese, but I suppose some readers will prefer one scripting over
> > the other.
> > Regards.
> > Manuel Gomez. ManuelGR on Meta.
>
> Chinese Wikipedia uses two different scripts - Simplified and
> Traditional, and the software converts articles between them depending
> on user preferences. Therefore, every user could write in either
> Castilian or Andalusian, depending on their user preferences, and for
> users of Andalusian, the Castilian articles would be converted to
> match their own spelling, so everyone would read them with their own
> scripting even if it was written with the other.
>

Hi Pawe?,
It is not that simple. Although
many words are pronounced differently
but have one to one character ratio,
there are many instances where Andalusian
uses different terms, pronouns, verb tenses,
and contractions which Castilian would find
non-standard. However these are real in use
Andalusian phrases and they follow a set
"standard" of a sort...
take a look at:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalidad_ling%C3%BC%C3%ADstica_andaluza#Curiosidad

"Recientemente se viene usando el sistema "NOA" (Norma Ortogr?fica
Andaluza) basada en el "andaluz est?ndar" para transcribir canciones
populares, flamenco, o cualquier otra ocasi?n en la que se quiera
reflejar de forma fidedigna el habla del pueblo andaluz."

For quite a few years now there have been conferences where
Andalusian authors have discussed this NOA and the
impact of the spoken language on the writing standard.

With regards,
Jay B.

--
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


subject: [Foundation-l] RE:New language policy

body:
ilooy wrote:

>2005/11/23, Pawe? Dembowski <fallout at lexx.eu.org>:
>
>
>>>Mexican Spanish is markedly different from Andalusian.
>>>Actually Puerto Rican, Cuban and Dominican and
>>>others in the Caribean are much more like Andalusian.
>>>They exhibit similar language traits and are historically
>>>descended from Andalusian.
>>>
>>>
>>Are the differences much bigger than between British and American
>>English? Are texts in Andalusian intelligible to Castilian speakers?
>>
>>
>
>Hi, Pawe?,
>The difference is quite obvious to
>someone who hears both Andalusian
>and Castilian.
>
I think he was referring to the written language.

>I truly believe an Andalusian
>language wiki should be formed.
>
>Both American and British English have
>their own forms of speech, and there are
>quite varied regional differences, but most
>are usually understandable, there are of
>course some regional forms of speech
>in the UK that I have a really hard time
>understanding. I'm sure you probably do
>as well... maybe...
>
Many native English speakers have that problem,

>In the case of Mexican and Andalusian
>I can tell you my grandmothers experience
>in going shopping in Phoenix Arizona...
>She came home complaining that she
>was not understood nor did she understand
>what a lot of people said to her... interestingly
>one situation had to do with buying a "guajolote" which
>is quite different from standard spanish "pavo"
>meaning "turkey".
>:-)))
>
That term is uniquely Mexican, and for a new world bird at that.  That
won't help in a Castillian/Andalusian distinction.  I likely would hvae
made the mistake of thinking that "pavo" related to peacocks.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] RE:New language policy


subject: [Foundation-l] RE:New language policy

body:
Joanot Martorell wrote:

>Concluding, I think that the wikimedia should be inclusionist to every
>language/dialect/modality in the case these are being rejected in all projects
>of Wikimedia, specially if these are rejected by the projects wich are in the
>most nearest languages. And wikimedia should be exclusionist if a
>language/dialect/modality are being included already on one of its projects.
>
>
I think that this principle of inclusion could be an important basis for
determining when a "language" is a language.

Ec


subject: [Foundation-l] RE:New language policy


body:
Jens Frank wrote:

>> > The RAID eats up some of the raw disks' space with the redundancy.
>> > Either that or I've lost track of something. ;)
>>
>> Hm, shouldn't 6 of 8 disks (8 - 1 for parity - 1 spare) per RAID be
>> available in a RAID 5? So each array should provide 2400 GB (2232 GiB,
>> don't know if Ganglia's GB really are GB or wrongly named GiB).
>
> Sorry, the wikitech page about amane was not up to date.
>
> [...]

Ah yes, that's an explanation and matches the 3,257 GB from Ganglia better.

> This was the fastest available configuration with redundancy. Only RAID0 was
> reading faster. The server has 8GB memory, so 10GB test file size were chosen.

That gives less space available but actually I was uneasy about RAID5
from the security point of view anyway.

Thanks,
J?rgen


from_name: Pawe³ Dembowski

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
> What text are you talking about? All the proposed spellings for the new
> Wikipedia are intelligible to all Spanish speakers. I don't know of
> published texts using those spellings. Of course, it is hard to read
> your language in a totally new spelling, but it is almost a character
> replacement pattern.

I'm not an Andalusian speaker, I was just asking :). If it's mostly a
matter of ortography, can't an automated conversion script be used
like at the Chinese Wikipedia?

--
Ausir


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
2005/11/24, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>:
> ilooy wrote:
> You can't have it both ways.  The whole issue of whether Andalusian is a
> separate language or a dialect IS a matter of politics.  How can you
> advocate like that and pretend it's not politics.

I don't pretend. I abhor politics, simple as that.
But I do maintain that Andalusian is distinct
as a language from Castilian.

> I don't by any means consider Ethnologue to be the last word on whether
> a way of speaking qualifies as a language, but I do accept them as the
> first word.  If we are to take a position contrary to theirs it should
> be based on some realistic evidence.

Andalusian was spoken in Andalusia long
before the Reconquest by Castile-Aragon.
The language was markedly different then
as was Gallego, Catalan, Asturian etc.
It remains distinct enough to qualify as
a language in it's own right just as the
other languages in the peninsula are.

> Sure, but we need to be convinced that it IS a language, and not just a
> dialect.

I can't convince you obviously, you seem to
have made up your mind and so have quite
a few who very vociferously want to deny
Andalusian its voice in Wikipedia. That's
just sad and a regrettable situation in my
opinion.

> Voting is a stupid way to decide these things.  On one side we
> have a group that is familiar with the "language", and which has the
> political will to see its interests advanced.  On the other side is a
> large group of people with no objective knowledge of the situation, and
> that would like to hear the other side of the argument.  They are
> prepared to wait until there are facts to work with.

So which side is it now... the one's who oppose?
Are they on the first group or second you mention...
Wait I think there must be a third, no maybe it was
sockpuppetry. ;-)

> >For example the rule that languages must
> >have an established standard written form,
> I don't see this as a requirement that needs to be interpreted too strictly

Well, as a matter of fact Andalusian does have
a standard of sorts which has been used for
a few years, just like other languages in the
Peninsula which are coming out from under
repression.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalidad_ling%C3%BC%C3%ADstica_andaluza#Curiosidad
"Recientemente se viene usando el sistema "NOA" (Norma Ortogr?fica
Andaluza) basada en el "andaluz est?ndar" para transcribir canciones
populares, flamenco, o cualquier otra ocasi?n en la que se quiera
reflejar de forma fidedigna el habla del pueblo andaluz."

> >it may give guidance in respect to Andalusian,
> >but it would also mean calling into question
> >some already started wikipedia languages.
> This could be a problem because it's difficult to get rid of a project
> once it's started, no matter how ridiculous it is.

Yes, I think so too, but by thinking of some
workable guidelines and a procedure which
would satisfy most of the situations, those
which may be problematic may be given
extra attention. An appeal may be put under
way if a language is refused, and a decision
made which would establish some sort of
precedent. I think we already have some
precedents with the Klingon and Toki Pona
situations, also the Balkan languages issue.

with regards,
Jay B.
[[User:ILVI]]

--
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


from_name: kelvSYC

subject: [Foundation-l] Wikisource and the Handbook of Mathematical Functions

body:
Sorry if I'm in the wrong list in this matter, but I'm just too lazy
to subscribe to the Wikisource list just for the sake of one
message.  Anyways, I want to add the Handbook of Mathematical
Functions (or a wikified version therein) by Abramowitz and Stegun in
Wikisource, but I am not too sure whether legal issues would preclude
its inclusion.

According to [[w:Abramowitz and Stegun]], it is not protected by
copyright, as it is a product of American government employees acting
in official capacity, but it has been commercially reproduced.  Free
copies of the handbook are available online, according to its
external links version.

Advice on the matter is greatly appreciated.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
Pawe? Dembowski wrote:
>>What text are you talking about? All the proposed spellings for the new
>>Wikipedia are intelligible to all Spanish speakers. I don't know of
>>published texts using those spellings. Of course, it is hard to read
>>your language in a totally new spelling, but it is almost a character
>>replacement pattern.
>
>
> I'm not an Andalusian speaker, I was just asking :). If it's mostly a
> matter of ortography, can't an automated conversion script be used
> like at the Chinese Wikipedia?
>

I'm sorry if I appeard rude, it wasn't my intention; but English is not
my mother language and I may fail in the expression.

About conversion script, I don't think it would be useful. Most readers
will feel uncomfortable reading texts in a new spelling, even though
when that spelling matches best their speech. I don't know the details
about Chinese, but I suppose some readers will prefer one scripting over
the other.

Regards.
Manuel Gomez. ManuelGR on Meta.


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


subject:
[Foundation-l] Wikisource and the Handbook of Mathematical
	Functions

body:
kelvSYC wrote:

> Sorry if I'm in the wrong list in this matter, but I'm just too lazy
> to subscribe to the Wikisource list just for the sake of one
> message.  Anyways, I want to add the Handbook of Mathematical
> Functions (or a wikified version therein) by Abramowitz and Stegun in
> Wikisource, but I am not too sure whether legal issues would preclude
> its inclusion.
>
> According to [[w:Abramowitz and Stegun]], it is not protected by
> copyright, as it is a product of American government employees acting
> in official capacity, but it has been commercially reproduced.  Free
> copies of the handbook are available online, according to its
> external links version.
>
> Advice on the matter is greatly appreciated.

It's clearly in the public domain; there is no mention of copyright at
the beginning of the book. In that time a notice was a precondition to
being copyright.  The fact that it has been commercially reproduced does
not take it out of the public domain.  If you are taking the material
from a commercial reproduction, only material (such as an introduction)
that they have added could be protected.

Ec


body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>I think that was basically my point -- that deletion of articles is at
>the discretion of the individual admin, and if people disagree, he
>should be de-admined rather than blocked.
>
>With the extra power of sysophood comes extra responsibility; however
>if you abuse it you should simply lose the extra responsibility rather
>than being banned altogether.
>
Before you start engaging in drastic or punitive actions it helps to
discuss the problem with him first..  Negotiation can be a wonderful tool.

Ec


from_name: epzachte at chello.nl

subject: [Wikitech-l] EasyTimeline patch causes garbled texts

body:
I just saw the recent EasyTimeline upgrade, patched for unicode compliance 4 days ago.

Unfortunately it breaks things seriously.
Could this patch be reverted until I submit a better solution hopefully soon?

With the new patch all texts with embedded links will be garbled. This is why:
EasyTimeline supports embedded links, Ploticus does not,
so EasyTimeline divides and draw texts in segments, straight text in black,
then linked text in blue, more text in black, carefully positioning each segment,
depending on alignment, etc.

Currently Easytimeline script still assumes the standard monospaced font.
So text with embedded links will be positioned wrongly with the new variable sized font.
Now Wp authors will attempt to 'correct' the scripts to accomodate current offset errors,
only to find charts are garbled again when the proper solution arrives.

My version asks Ploticus for font metrics and then handles text positioning of each segment well, with any font.
It also allows to mix several fonts, adapts line spacing to font metrics, etc.

In fact the update for EasyTimeline is ready for months and was waiting for Ploticus patch
I submitted patch for Ploticus that allows querying of Freetype font metrics.
I just checked: this patch has been included in newest Ploticus release, thanks to Steve Grubb,
so I can resume testing soon.

I know I'm late with my solution, which I announced in Frankfurt.
My health was not 100% in previous months, in fact I'm still limited in the amount of work I can do here.
I'm recovering but my day job comes first of course.
So please bear with me for a while and leave EasyTimeline font support it was in the meantime.

Thanks, Erik Zachte


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] User Jcb deleting articles in ia.wikipedia.org

body:
Thanks to JCB I've gotten a bit more information about this situation
and it's no longer so one-sided.

ILVI is an INACTIVE user. He has made less than 50 edits in the past
12 months on ia.wiki.

ILVI blocked JCB without even trying to talk to him in advance.

In March, JCB found a lot of blanked articles at ia.wiki. He spoke to
a steward and was asked to undo the blanking. He reverted the blanking
of more than 500 articles.

JCB claims he doesn't delete "hundreds of articles", but rather that
he deletes only nonsense. Sometimes people contact him at his Dutch
discussion page to ask him to delete a nonsense article.

He, unlike ILVI, is an ACTIVE user, he does a lot of bot-maintenance
with RobotJcb, he's done a lot of categorisation, and he checks for
vandalism almost every day. He could stop this robot-attack
immediately, because he was online.

To me, it seems as if Jay Bowks got an e-mail from somebody saying "Oh
noes my artikkal disappeared!!! HELP ME!" and then Jay, defender of
the underdog, went "Oh my!!! This article which has only one word in
it was deleted by the incredible vandal JCB!!! I shall block him now!"

Of course, Jay himself wouldn't know what was REALLY going on because
he's not active at ia.wiki...

Mark

On 22/11/05, ilooy <ilooy.gaon at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear fellow wikipedians,
>
> The regrettable situation at ia.wikipedia.org
> has gone on for too long.
>
> Numerous articles have disappeared...
> ...editors were not told about this in
> their discussion pages... Articles
> were deleted at the whim of someone
> who acquired administrator access
> and has gone on with this behavior
> despite the warnings and even pleadings
> of several users in the ia.wikipedia.org
> community.
>
> This behavior will not be tolerated.
> I have blocked the Trojan-horse
> admin and his IP address.
>
> This person is not the only one
> who has done this type of activity
> at the ia.wiki ...and... to substain
> this type of abuse is just intolerable.
>
> Hundreds and hundreds of articles
> have been deleted since this wiki
> reached its highest amount of
> submitted articles. Since then
> many contributors have walked
> away from the project disgusted
> that the articles they were working
> on were deleted.
>
> Many of the articles were deleted
> because they were "mere stubs".
> The reason they are stubs is because
> many folks are still working on these
> articles... Is this the situation in other
> Wikipedias... to delete stubs willy-nilly?
> I think not!
>
> I consider this attack on the ia.wiki
> to be akin to vandalism. It has got to
> stop and it better stop soon.
>
> Whatever I can do to halt this form
> of abuse I will do. And so would any
> other reasonable member of this
> community. I'm sure.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jay B.
> [[ia:Usator:ILVI]]
>
>
> In Interlingua
>
> Car collegas wikipedian,
>
> Le situation regrettabile al ia.wikipedia.org
> ha continuate pro troppo tempore..
>
> Numerose articulos ha disparite...
> ...redactores non esseva informate de isto in
> su paginas de discussion... Articulos
> esseva delite al gusto de alcuno qui
> obtineva accesso como administrator
> e ha sequite con iste comportamento
> abusive non obstante le appellos per
> varie usatores in le communitate de
> ia.wikipedia.org
>
> Iste comportamento non sera tolerate.
> Io ha bloccate iste admin Cavallo-Trojan
> e su adresse de IP.
>
> Iste persona non esseva le unic
> qui ha facite iste typo de activitate
> in le ia.wiki ...e... supportar iste
> typo de abuso es intolerabile.
>
> Centos e centos de articulos esseva
> delite desde que iste wiki habeva
> colligite su numero plus grande de
> articulos submittite. Desde tunc,
> multe contributores ha vadite via
> disgustate del projecto proque le
> articulos con le quales illes
> laborava esseva delite.
>
> Multes de iste articulos esseva
> delibe pro que illos esseva solmente
> un "semine de articulo". Le ration
> que illos es solmente un "semine"
> es que multe gente ancora labora
> con lor redaction... Es iste le situation
> in altere Wikipedias? ...deler le
> semine de articulos a gusto proprie?
> Io non lo crede.
>
> Io considera iste atacco contra le ia.wiki
> esser quasi un forma de vandalismo. Isto
> debe stoppar e illo debe stoppar tosto.
>
> Qualcosa que io pote facer pro poner
> un halto a iste forma de abuso, io lo
> facera. E tamben facerea assi qualcunque
> membro rationabile de iste communitate.
> De isto io es secur.
>
> Sincermente,
> Jay B.
> [[ia:Usator:ILVI]]
>
>
>
> --
> ilooy.gaon at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
"Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
> About conversion script, I don't think it would be useful. Most readers
> will feel uncomfortable reading texts in a new spelling, even though
> when that spelling matches best their speech. I don't know the details
> about Chinese, but I suppose some readers will prefer one scripting over
> the other.
> Regards.
> Manuel Gomez. ManuelGR on Meta.

Chinese Wikipedia uses two different scripts - Simplified and
Traditional, and the software converts articles between them depending
on user preferences. Therefore, every user could write in either
Castilian or Andalusian, depending on their user preferences, and for
users of Andalusian, the Castilian articles would be converted to
match their own spelling, so everyone would read them with their own
scripting even if it was written with the other.

--
Ausir


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


from_name: geni

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Lauritsen speedy deletion??

body:
On 11/23/05, Bryan Derksen <bryan.derksen at shaw.ca> wrote:
> But those who _did_ complain that images were incorrectly deleted were
> out of luck, I take it, since image deletion is unrevertable.
>

No true. It is correct to say it is not easy to revert.

> We're just going around and around in circles, here. I've explained why
> I think it's a good idea to take things slow, and also pointed to
> examples of how we could configure the system so that taking things slow
> would work, but I don't recall reading an explanation of why it's a good
> idea to take these things _fast_. What harm is done by having junk stick
> around for a week or two longer?
>

laqwsuits for copyright infindgement loses of focus on the task that
kind of thing

> Why is 50 days "stupidly slow?" What's happening 50 days from now that
> we have to get this done by?
>

Clear failer to remove material that we knew infrindged someone else's
copyright.

> On November 18 AfD had 151 articles added, so these systems can clearly
> scale up to handle that amount (discounting of course the fact that many
> people are arguing that AfD isn't handling that amount _well_. :)
>

IFD uses a different system to Afd. Notive how WP:CP strugges to cope.

> "Most" implies that some of it _does_. I've seen plenty of
> page-blankings, it's not like the vandals that do that are going to
> first check to see if the images on that page are fair use.
>

well eventualism gets you out of that one. The vast majority of "fair
use" images on wikipedia can be found on other sources within seconds.

> I _always_ tag images for deletion rather than delete them directly
> myself. That's usually the case with articles too, the only ones I just
> outright delete are history-free redirects that are in the way of a move
> operation.

uh hu and when did you last clear out catigory candidates for speedy
deletion? you've just doubled the number of admin hours needed to get
things done.
--
geni


from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin Ed Poor allegation of abuse

body:
I see from [[Wikipedia:Account suspensions#User:Joshuaschroeder]] that
you are now unblocked.  The circumstances of your blocking do seem to
be in some dispute, so I'm not sure that your account here is the full
story.

I'm also not sure that WikiEN-l is the best place to attempt dispute resolution.

However, if the dispute between you and Ed preceded your blocking and
your behavior was not simple vandalism, it might have been better if
he had someone else block you.

-Matt


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
Lars, I don't know what gives you
the right to abuse me like this.

http://andalu.wikicities.com

check it out and and shut up!

Since,
Jay B.

2005/11/24, Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se>:
> ilooy wrote:
> > I don't pretend. I abhor politics, simple as that.
> > But I do maintain that Andalusian is distinct
> > as a language from Castilian.
> If you also had the ambition to write a free encyclopedia in
> Andalusian, you would not waste your time on this mailing list,
> but you would go to wikicities and get going, one article at a
> time.  However, all I see is a lot of endless language debates on
> wikipedia-l and now also on foundation-l.  Apparently, the desire
> to write encyclopedic articles in these minor languages is a whole
> lot less than the desire to litter these mailing lists with
> messages that lead to nothing.  Troll!
>
>
> --
>   Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
>   Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
--
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


body:
2005/11/24, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>:
> To me, it seems as if Jay Bowks got an e-mail from somebody saying "Oh
> noes my artikkal disappeared!!! HELP ME!" and then Jay, defender of
> the underdog, went "Oh my!!! This article which has only one word in
> it was deleted by the incredible vandal JCB!!! I shall block him now!"
> Of course, Jay himself wouldn't know what was REALLY going on because
> he's not active at ia.wiki...

To you it SEEMS???

Where are my articles Mark???

Where are my edits Mark???

Why does http://en.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EN/TablesWikipediaIA.htm
show negative growth by several hundred articles
between July and August of 2004.
The table shows a loss from 339k
word count to 240k words, that's almost
a hundred thounsand words. So is that
one or two 5 word articles to you???

Why on the New Article count there are
negative numbers on so many days?
And this with quite a few contributors
adding articles all the time?

You seem too eager to criticize and
don't seem patient enough to listen.
I'm telling you that I want to know what
happened to my edits and you tell me
that there are no edits. Well what about
everyone elses edits? Why do hundreds
of articles disappear??? And you get
all too silly with your REALLY knowing
what's going on... You don't know anything
Mark because you don't know what's
been going on.

BTW you're starting to annoy me Mark.

Since,
Jay B.
[[User:ILVI]]

--
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Chinese wikipedia unblocked?

body:
Ting Chen wrote:
>>I have thought some time ago that we should have a page summarizing the
>>successive blocks (date, range etc...), and the actions done to try to
>>lift them up. I felt uncertain if we should do this at all, but hearing
>>that we are still blocked, I really feel we should.
>
>
> I support this suggestion. This page should also list other blocks (I think
> I heard that some language versions ware or are blocked by Iran).
>
> Here is a link to the chinese page on this event (including the two blocks
> in last
> year):
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E5%A4%A7%E9%99%86%E5%B0%81%E9%94%81%E7%BB%B4%E5%9F%BA%E5%AA%92%E4%BD%93%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6
> and this is the english version:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_of_Wikipedia_in_mainland_China
>
> Greetings
> Ting
>

Thanks for the info Ting. I hope the english page will be updated from
time to time :-)

I also renamed (not great, but better than nothing), the meta page :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_projects_blocks

ant


from_name: Lars Aronsson

subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy

body:
ilooy wrote:
> I don't pretend. I abhor politics, simple as that.
> But I do maintain that Andalusian is distinct
> as a language from Castilian.

If you also had the ambition to write a free encyclopedia in
Andalusian, you would not waste your time on this mailing list,
but you would go to wikicities and get going, one article at a
time.  However, all I see is a lot of endless language debates on
wikipedia-l and now also on foundation-l.  Apparently, the desire
to write encyclopedic articles in these minor languages is a whole
lot less than the desire to litter these mailing lists with
messages that lead to nothing.  Troll!

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New language policy


body:
2005/11/24, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>:
> Wake up! You are talking July and August _2004_ here! That's not last
> week, not last month, that's more than one year ago! And those
> deletions were not done by Jcb, he was not even on Wikipedia then!

That was one example of massive deletions.
There are other deletions which went on
on a regular basis which meant many
times there were minus new entries,
figure that one out on the tables.

> And apparently YOU don't know what's been going on either.
> And you're starting to annoy me. You find a sysop deleting pages, and:
> 1. You DON'T talk with him
> 2. You DON'T ask for his removal
> 3. You DON'T bring the pages back
> 4. You DO block him,

I've written before that this was going on.
I posted messages everywhere I could
to tell Jcb I was blocking him only until
the situation was resolved. There are
no records I can find of who or what
bot has been making deletions other
than Jcb. And he is the only other
sysop I didn't know well enough at
the wiki. He also has a bot at work
on the wiki, and no other admins do.
I wanted to put a stop to the situation
and look into it.

> And then you give him blame for things he cannot possibly have done!

No, I noticed that he was the admin who
was actively deleting pages. I noticed that
he was the only admin claiming to have
a bot at work in the wiki.

> The facts of the matter are:
> * Jcb has deleted some pages
> * ILVI has blocked Jcb

That's right.

> That's about the only thing we can be sure of.

Exactly.

> Also some things that definitely are NOT true, but that ILVI has claimed:
> * Jcb did NOT do the deletions of July-August 2004. He has been a
> moderator only since February/March 2005
> * Jcb did NOT delete anonymously. Deleting anonymously is simply impossible.

I didn't claim that Jcb did those particular
deletions. I stated that this type of deletions
were troubling and have been going on for
quite a while. When it was obvious that other
admins were not deleting pages and did not
have a bot at work on the wiki, the next step
for me was to put a block on him, although
Anthere said it probably doesn't work, but
I want to know if Jcb had anything to do with
not only deletions but disappearences of
new articles and edits.

And why are there so many negative
messages regarding this matter? What
would other wikis who have had this
unexplained disappearences have done?

Since,
Jay B.
[[User:ILVI]]

--
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: User Jcb deleting articles in ia.wikipedia.org

body:
2005/11/24, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net>:
> Before you start engaging in drastic or punitive actions it helps to
> discuss the problem with him first..  Negotiation can be a wonderful tool.

Well, it was maybe a matte of
shoot first then ask questions.

I had asked about the situation
before from others, and no one
seems to know why there were
so many deletions and why the
article counts were so screwy.
Like a hundred thousand words
deleted. That wasn't just a few
articles with "stubs". And that's
only one instance. There are
negative new article entries???
What's up with that?

And the complaints from disgusted
contributors who kept wondering
where were articles that they'd
edited? And I've experienced it
myself. Sometimes I'd think that
they were problems with the software,
that perhaps there were upgrades,
or shutdowns which required the
reloading of a database... and what
else... I don't know... no one seems
to know obviously.

What I did find was that Jcb was
deleting articles. And he did have
a bot active on the wiki. So I posted
that I was blocking him until the
matter could be resolved with the
deletions going on in ia.wiki
and that's the situation up to now.

Since,
Jay B.

--
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


body:
2005/11/24, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>:
> You do neither of this. Instead you get into a rage against the person
> that you *think* is to blame, and you are deaf to any suggestion that
> the situation might be different than you thought, or that you might
> better have done differently even IF it is as you thought.

Dear Andre,
No, I didn't get into a rage. I've had
contact with Almafeta and Dissident
many times. Jcb was not discussing
his deletions with others and this
caused a lot of strong contributors
to leave the wiki.

We're talking of strange things happening
with the wiki. And if a bot of unexplained
goings on is at work in it then this would
be cause for alarm. Jcb is the only one
with a bot on the wiki.

I don't know of any other wiki I'm a member
of where hundreds of thousands of words
have been deleted and there's no record
except the Statistics Table to show that
there were articles, there were new entries
and then they were gone, plain gone. And
this has been going on for a while. And then
I'm told I'm an inactive user in the wiki to boot!
I've been active against vandalism attacks and
I've been correcting and editing articles and
why are entries to this effect missing on logs.
Why are there several contributors in the
same situation?

Maybe Jcb didn't have a part in the massive
deletions that were going on, but he was
one who wasn't complaining about it, and
other admins and several contributors were.
I've got nothing personal against Jcb, I appreciate
he'd be willing to help with the ia.wiki but I did
notice things that threw up a red flag and I
want the situation resolved.

Since,
Jay B.
[[User:ILVI]]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki about every person in the world

body:
on en:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kmweber/List_of_Everyone_Who_Has_Ever_Lived

disambiguation is one of many problems.  ~12 billion entries is likely
well beyond the scalability of the software.  Indeed even ~1 billion
entries.

In my opinion, this belongs in a genealogy targetted database.
http://www.google.com/search?q=genealogy

-mike ( en:user:here )


body:
2005/11/24, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>:
> People had been putting up the complete text of books of the Bible,
> the book of Mormons and the Koran. Those have been deleted by
> Dissident in February.

These texts were discussed and moved
to Wikisource. Then they were moved
off Wikimedia and onto discussions on
YahooGroups. I kept in touch with Ensjo,
Dissident, and Almafeta about some of
these issues.

The fact remains that hundreds and
hundreds of articles were missing and
at that no record of deletions. But
contributors would make new entries
and these would disappear. It has
happened to me and to several
strong contributors on ia.wiki who
are disgusted with the project now.
But you notice, I haven't given up and
I am active in several wikis and I am
asking for a resolution to the matter.

> There was a whole lot of inappropriate material added (articles in
> other languages, year pages that contained no text except for on each
> page the same explanation of what Interlingua was, entries with
> nothing but a single translation, empty pages, vandalism), and there
> was no sysop to clean it up. Then someone took on the job (I don't
> remember who, but it was a German and I helped him) and deleted it all
> in less than a week. Thus, for that month (August 2004) the number was
> indeed negative.

So hundreds of thousands of words.
This is definitely not some articles
with a few words each, and definitely
some articles with a lot of text. Are
you telling me that you and this German
collaborator of yours decided to delete
willy-nilly without discussion and with
only the traces of Statistics Tables
to show your massive deletions?

But actually you could have had a
discussion with several of us admins,
why didn't you? Why not?
...Actually there were sysops around.
...And stuff was getting cleaned up also.
...And vandals blocked. And what is your
relationship to Interlingua and who is
this German fellow who you were
collaborating with? Why didn't you
discuss with some of the admins in
ia.wiki?

> Shoot first, ask questions later, and then complain when you are
> blamed for shooting, in other words.

That of course was a matter of speech.
Jcb did unblock himself right away.
But I did post messages on discussion
pages on his own Dutch page and on
my discussion page and elsewhere on
ia.wiki and want the situation to be
resolved.

> Get rid of the only person actually doing moderator work. Excellent
> way of improving your wiki...

Actually, I didn't get rid of anything after all,
did I, and now it seems you had a hand in
ia.wiki all along without discussing anything
with any admins that I know of. So I'm
pleased that things are coming out now.
BTW who is the German fellow you were
collaborating with? And why isn't he
communicating with the admins either?

Since,
Jay B.
[[ia:Usator:ILVI]]

--
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


subject: [Foundation-l] A proposal for new language creation

body:
2005/11/23, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>:
> ilooy wrote:
> > I'd like to suggest that taking into consideration ISO codes or SIL codes may [...]
> This is exactly the policy we adopted several years ago, which has proved
> insufficient.
> Relying on existence of ISO codes brings us:
> * split Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian replacing Serbocroatian [controverial]
> * Klingon
> etc
> and denies various languages/dialects/whatever which don't have their own codes
> but which are oft asked for.

Hi Brion, kaj saluton,

Actually I was suggesting it as a means
to pre-sift through new language requests.
Then those situations which require further
attention could be handled more delicately.

As it is the situation gets pretty charged
up. I offered my suggestion in the hope that
maybe this way some requests, like the one
for Murcian or Andalusian would be handled
right off without the need for a lot of discussion.

I hope I was able to explain what I had in mind
with this suggestion. I know somethings have
been tried already. But there is also the idea
that precedents have been made, a forum
which deals with the more delicate issues
would be a welcomed situation, I too agree
with this, and my suggestion of the ISO and
SIL codes was meant to help in this regard
not to take its place of course.

With regards,
Jay B.
[[meta:User:ILVI]]

--
ilooy.gaon at gmail.com


body:
On 11/24/05, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
> Yeah, just putting new toys online to see what happens is really a
> stupid idea.
>
> Thankfully, we never tried such nonsense at Nupedia. Who knows what we
> would have ended up with, instead of the twenty-plus high-quality
> articles we now have after years of hard labor.
>
> Magnus

Well I supose we could have a go at guessing in advance:

Validation wars with forums ganging up to vote for/against certian
articles. evidence (no way should it be rated that high:

http://newgrounds.com/portal/view/276616

Trolls will follow around users they don't like rateing their articles to zero.

An equiverlent of schoolwatch will turn up and start rateing all of a
certian type of article to exelent

The anglo-american spelling war will use article validation as a new
battle field.

We will disscover that our articles on pokemon and explodeing wales
are our most valued.

at least one arbcom case will result from the switching on of this feature.

So all in all bussiness as usal and nothing to worry about (well no
more than there normaly is). People will use it to cause trouble but
unless we lock the database people are always going to be able to
cause trouble.

--
geni


from_name: Magnus Manske

body:
stevertigo wrote:

>IMHO, the 'lets mine this turnip and
>hope we find gold' approach won't work. It's a
>Murphy's Law, or something like it. Testing to see
>what crap floats is indeed only useful for Calvinball.
>
>
Yeah, just putting new toys online to see what happens is really a
stupid idea.

Thankfully, we never tried such nonsense at Nupedia. Who knows what we
would have ended up with, instead of the twenty-plus high-quality
articles we now have after years of hard labor.

Magnus


from_name: Philip Sandifer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Some Wikipedia writers cover up for cranks on Wikipedia

body:
On Nov 24, 2005, at 12:07 PM, David Gerard wrote:

> Phil Boswell wrote:
>> "Rex" <rexy at ij.net> wrote:
>
>>> ...  They cover up discoveries by the historian Rex Curry.
>
>> Just checking: are you actually "the historian Rex Curry"?
>> If so, are you sure you have checked the Wikipedia policy against
>> "original
>> research"?
>
>
>     http://rexcurry.net/
>
> It's an ... amazing page.

AGH! MY BRAIN!

-Phil


from_name: Brion Vibber

body:
ilooy wrote:
> 2005/11/23, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>:
>> ilooy wrote:
>>> I'd like to suggest that taking into consideration ISO codes or SIL codes may [...]
>> This is exactly the policy we adopted several years ago, which has proved
>> insufficient.
>> Relying on existence of ISO codes brings us:
>> * split Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian replacing Serbocroatian [controverial]
>> * Klingon
>> etc
>> and denies various languages/dialects/whatever which don't have their own codes
>> but which are oft asked for.
>
> Hi Brion, kaj saluton,
>
> Actually I was suggesting it as a means
> to pre-sift through new language requests.
> Then those situations which require further
> attention could be handled more delicately.

Well, that *is exactly* what we've done the last few years.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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body:
ilooy wrote:
> 2005/11/23, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>:
>> ilooy wrote:
>>> I'd like to suggest that taking into consideration ISO codes or SIL codes may [...]
>> This is exactly the policy we adopted several years ago, which has proved
>> insufficient.
>> Relying on existence of ISO codes brings us:
>> * split Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian replacing Serbocroatian [controverial]
>> * Klingon
>> etc
>> and denies various languages/dialects/whatever which don't have their own codes
>> but which are oft asked for.
>
> Hi Brion, kaj saluton,
>
> Actually I was suggesting it as a means
> to pre-sift through new language requests.
> Then those situations which require further
> attention could be handled more delicately.

Well, that *is exactly* what we've done the last few years.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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body:
ilooy wrote:
> 2005/11/23, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>:
>> ilooy wrote:
>>> I'd like to suggest that taking into consideration ISO codes or SIL codes may [...]
>> This is exactly the policy we adopted several years ago, which has proved
>> insufficient.
>> Relying on existence of ISO codes brings us:
>> * split Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian replacing Serbocroatian [controverial]
>> * Klingon
>> etc
>> and denies various languages/dialects/whatever which don't have their own codes
>> but which are oft asked for.
>
> Hi Brion, kaj saluton,
>
> Actually I was suggesting it as a means
> to pre-sift through new language requests.
> Then those situations which require further
> attention could be handled more delicately.

Well, that *is exactly* what we've done the last few years.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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body:
ilooy wrote:
> 2005/11/23, Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>:
>> ilooy wrote:
>>> I'd like to suggest that taking into consideration ISO codes or SIL codes may [...]
>> This is exactly the policy we adopted several years ago, which has proved
>> insufficient.
>> Relying on existence of ISO codes brings us:
>> * split Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian replacing Serbocroatian [controverial]
>> * Klingon
>> etc
>> and denies various languages/dialects/whatever which don't have their own codes
>> but which are oft asked for.
>
> Hi Brion, kaj saluton,
>
> Actually I was suggesting it as a means
> to pre-sift through new language requests.
> Then those situations which require further
> attention could be handled more delicately.

Well, that *is exactly* what we've done the last few years.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: <link> elements for interlanguage link
	information

references:
<1131981004.29814.52.camel@zhora.1481ruerachel.net>	<dll8u3$oua$1@sea.gmane.org>	<1132538575.6605.35.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<43813378.4060605@pobox.com>
	<dm4rkd$bl$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Timwi wrote:
>> It just makes it a lot harder to deal with such pages: if you
>> HTTP-redirect straight to the target page you're missing the link back
>> to the redirect page. (And that is *crucial* for editing work and
>> vandalism cleanup. It is non-negotiable.)
>
> I feel I should point out an implicit fallacy in this. It is
> non-negotiable that we need a link to the redirect page. It is *not*
> non-negotiable that we can't return a 301 HTTP redirection.

The only fallacy is yours, you invented some claim that I said 301s can't be
used. This is false; if you had read my message you'd have seen that my point
was using a 301 would require sending additional parameters to avoid making
redirect cleanup work hugely annoying, and this would destroy any benefit that
would allegedly come from using an HTTP redirect to the direct target URL (since
you can't do it, you'd have to use a different URL).

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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