from_name: Giuseppe DAngelo

body:
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:16:46 -0400
From:
Subject: RE: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs
To:
Message-ID: <000001c545c4$5fc48b70$830ffea9 at ls>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jimmy wrote:
> I'll just restate my point, which is that the first person to
> propose that we move to a wiki system to resolve the problems
> of Nupedia was Jeremy Rosenfeld.

What does "propose" mean, then? I suppose you mean he mentioned such an
idea to you. Well, so what? That didn't lead to the creation of Wikipedia,
did it? You're implying that it did. But it didn't.

I mention *all sorts* of ideas to other people, and other people have
mentioned zillions of ideas to me. This doesn't make any such person,
somehow, "the first person to propose" the idea, in the sense of being
creditable with formulating the project that actually came into being.

And why, again, Jimmy, did you take four years to mention this, if it's
worth mentioning at all? Why did you never tell me, or Wikipedians, before?
Why is it worth mentioning just now?

> I just think this is an
> interesting bit of historical trivia which in no way detracts
> from your _causal_ role in the founding of Wikipedia.

But to say that Jeremy Rosenfeld was "the first person to propose" a wiki
encyclopedia is precisely to imply, isn't it, that he played the seminal
causal role in founding Wikipedia--which is just false. It isn't just
"another perspective."

> (And of course you never opposed _neutrality_, my point was
> that you never were happy with NPOV _as a technical term to
> describe a social concept of co-operation_. You said so
> yourself the other day, and I think that's great.)

The social concept of co-operation was always my idea of the purpose of the
neutrality policy, as well. That was quite explicit in Nupedia's policy
statement, drafted by me, as well as the longer statement of Wikipedia's
policy on the NPOV page, which I drafted.

I disagree with the exact formulation of the words, "the neutral point of
view." I personally advocated everything else about the policy, more
strenuously than anyone else did; and if I had not done so, Wikipedia might
not now be committed to its neutrality policy.

> I apologize most sincerely if my saying so has upset you; it
> was not my intention.

You don't need to apologize, condescendingly, for upsetting me, Jimmy;
obviously, that's just a further insult, as it puts attention on the fact
that I am upset. Sure I am. Kind of you to observe that. If I were to
say, "Jimmy really had nothing to do with Wikipedia. When I asked him to,
he compliantly set up a wiki, and I proceeded to do virtually everything to
get the project started and set it up to become a success; he was on the
sidelines most of the time; and, of course, he paid me"--you would be upset,
too, I suspect. But I do not say this, out of respect.

I am upset, and also disappointed and severely disillusioned. But if for
anything, you need to apologize for implying something false, which, if
passed around much, would create entirely the wrong impression among your
many admirers in the Wikimedia community: "The original idea for a wiki for
Wikipedia was not proposed by Larry, but by Jeremy Rosenfeld." That's an
apology that I would find valuable.

I see that someone has already made use of your declaration to say something
completely wrong on my Wikipedia user page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Larry_Sanger

I expect that your perfectly innocent comment will now be repeated, with
perfect innocence, to journalists. Then this and other such historical
revisionism on your part will help ensure that I will in the future be
portrayed as (1) not the person who came up with the idea of Wikipedia, (2)
merely and singlehandedly responsible for the "miserable failure" that was
Nupedia, and who was fired because it was a failure, (3) on Wikipedia,
merely an employee taking orders and not really responsible for any of the
policy of the project, (4) opposed to an open project altogether, and (5)
opposed to neutrality. That, at least, is how it seems some of my
detractors want me to be portrayed, even though my memoir shows every part
of it to be outrageously false.

And after this, instead of treating me as a person with a legitimate,
well-founded complaint, I imagine that you will respond by implying that I
am "upset," and that you "apologize that I am upset." That's mighty big of
you, Jimmy.

--Larry
The memoir's location again:
http://features.slashdot.org/features/05/04/18/164213.shtml
http://features.slashdot.org/features/05/04/19/1746205.shtml

I was just wondering, coming in cold and knowing bugger all about anything, but wouldn't there exist documentation, like internal memos, minutes, or whatever the company/firm/sweatshop used in its day to day business dealings and communications.  Or was this some casual chit chat standing around the water cooler with everyone saying: great idea! Drop everything and get to it.  Or did it occur during a 5 minute smoko break - or maybe walking back together with your cups of latte from the local stucko bucko thingo, etc.  Or maybe you were all having lunch at Antonio's and you had a mouthful of focaccia and no one heard you...

pippu

---------------------------------
Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger E' molto pi? divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica
 Scaricalo ora!


list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Bjarte Sørensen

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Maybe both Larry and Jeremy had the idea?

body:
It is quite likely that both Larry and Jimmy's employee, Jeremy, both
had the idea of using a wiki for an encyclopedia, isn't it? Both of
them are intelligent people, working in the same environment at the
same point in (IT) history. And after all, once you understand what a
wiki is, it's not really THAT great a leap to make, is it? I clearly
remember sitting on the train one day in early 2002, even before I
knew about wiki-technology. Knowing what was possible with server-side
scripting I "invented" the concept of wiki-technology, and thought of
a use for it - an online database of the cities of the world, where
people from the particular cities could contribute with photos and
text. I still have the longhand notes somewhere, I think. Only a few
months later I discovered wiki-technology and Wikipedia, realising
that I had invented the wheel. Luckily I hadn't spent too much time
trying to figure out how to do it :). I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Most good ideas have already been thought of :).

Cheers, Bjarte S?rensen
[[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]]


from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 4/20/05 12:12 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You guys make Larry into a greedy, despicable man who has hated
> Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
> since then has done everything in his power to bring about its
> destruction. According to you guys, he also walks around telling
> people how he started Wikipedia, and cackling maniacally at the end of
> every other sentence.

I'd love to see references for the above claims (inferences?). I think you
might be distorting what other people have said.


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 4/20/05, Delirium <delirium at hackish.org> wrote:
> For what it's worth, my view on it is that who gets the credit is pretty
> meaningless.  As can be seen by the fact that many people suggested it,
> the idea of a wiki-based encyclopedia by the time Wikipedia was started
> was becoming fairly obvious, so eventually someone had to start it.

I think this comment (which Bjarte Sorensen also made, in different
words) bears repeating, and expanding upon. The way in which the
concept of wikis grew slowly for years and then boomed (take a look
around, they're everywhere now) suggests to me that they were "an idea
whose time had come". It also seems reasonable that Wikipedia itself
was an idea whose time had come - being, as it was, the culmination of
all sorts of attempts at an online encyclopedia, of which Nupedia was
a drop in the ocean (see, for instance,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_encyclopedia_project)

As such, I think the problem we are all struggling with is this:
-> "What does it mean to 'create' an idea?"
Like "Who invented the telephone?" the question of "Who invented
Wikipedia?" may be best viewed as an unanswerable question, as it is
simply too easy to redefine. Thus Larry is defining it in such a way
that the answer is "Larry", and Jimbo is defining it in such a way
that the answer is "Jeremy, and Jimbo, and also Larry". Obviously, if
you assume these are answering the same question, they are conflicting
answers; but it seems to me that they're not.

BTW, I now notice, after already drafting most of the above, that
[[Telephone]] on Wikipedia includes this statement:
> It is important to note that there is no "inventor of the telephone." The modern telephone is the result of work done by many hands, all worthy of recognition of their addition to the field. <
I couldn't have put it any better myself.

Which brings me to my next point - note the phrase "all worthy of
recognition". If you accept my reasoning that "who created Wikipedia?"
is a meaningless question, then you can see that the key point is how
we frame things. Nobody is denying that Larry had an extremely
important role in the early development of Wikipedia; and nobody is
claiming that Jeremy had more than a fleeting role in the idea. So,
the following should, I think, be uncontroversial:

* Jeremy and Larry both independently had the idea of using a wiki to
replace or complement Nupedia.
* They both mentionned this to Jimbo, who felt this better matched his
original "vision"
* It was Larry, however, that saw the idea through, and who was
extremely important in the early development of Wikipedia
* It is Jimbo who has stuck through, and worked on the project from
before it began to the present day

But the million-dollar question is apparently "was Larry a
co-founder?". I'd say "yes", in that he was part of the core that made
it happen. The problem is, if somebody came along just days after the
wiki was "switched on", and became an influential part of the
decision-making process, were they also a "co-founder"? Again, the
question is hard to frame. [I wasn't "there" anywhere near the time, I
should point out, so I am being purely hypothetical]

My conclusion?
"Jimbo Wales had a vision for a free online encyclopedia; he and his
employee Larry Sanger worked up Nupedia as a first stab at this
vision; after hearing about wikis - which Jimbo had also recently
discussed with another employee, Jeremy Rosenfeld - Larry laid down
the first strokes of what would become Wikipedia."

Sorry this has turned into such a ramble, but I hope it is of some
value to someone.
--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


from_name: Chad Perrin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2005 at 04:07:47PM -0400, Joseph Reagle wrote:
>
> Neither is appropriate; rather, without slipping into relativism it
> abstracts to a meta level of representing what people think they know
> (i.e., a consensus theory of truth) rather than what is (i.e., a strict
> objectivist stance.)

(above re: NPOV vs. unbiased)

I disagree.  NPOV strikes me as an eminently appropriate term.  By
letting divergent views be heard, and be toned down to largely unbiased
language, and coexist within the same blocks of text, a "neutral point
of view" is achieved.  What, after all, is a more neutral point of view
than one that simply includes references to all relevant opposing points
of view without judgment between them?  That's what we end up with when
NPOV policy is diligently observed.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


list: wikien-l

from_name: MacGyverMagic/Mgm

subject:
[WikiEN-l] Wikipedia: "Viscious, greed-driven,
	megalomaniacal fascists, fairy thugs, censors, and gay dogs"

body:
I always wondered how many times you can insult someone in one forum
message. Now I know.... Wished I didn't, this kind of nonsense always
drives me insane. I doubt he even attempted discussion.

Mgm

On 4/20/05, Viajero <viajero at quilombo.nl> wrote:
> An anon user named Jeff Sense kept inserting an article he wrote into
> [[Mario Lanza]] and various of us reverted him because the text was
> highly POV (it is supplied as a external link though). He takes his
> revenge on us in a Lanza fan forum (Derek is new user User:Derekmcgovern):
>
> "As you know, Derek and those he is defending - his associates-in-hiding
> - are chortling with delight as they continually delete my bio in their
> morbid dictating of what people may and may not read and consider about
> Mario's life and career. Derek's defense of this gay group's behavior is
> beyond redemption. Fascists are fascists. Censorship is censorship.
>
> My bio has been deleted from Wikipedia nearly a dozen times now. Their
> games continue. Viscious, greed-driven, megalomaniacal fascist thugs and
> censors will not go unchallenged. The EXACT same kind of maggots fed off
> Mario and his talent in life, and this current coterie of diseased,
> limp-wristed parasites are doing the exact same thing today. They are
> but gay dogs scurrying about urinating their pathetic liquid egos,
> conceit and arrogance on all things Lanza.
>
> Those who hide - and have hidden for years in the Lanza world under
> rocks and behind aliases - are of the dark side...fairies who seek to
> present themselves as the only true 'authorities' on the life of Lanza
> and to oppress all those who would stand up to them. The transparent
> attacks on this site in the past, the fake names, the pornographic
> posts, the aliases, all come from the same mindset...all from the same
> psychopaths who live in gratuitously deluded worlds of self-importance.
>
> We know who you are and you are the most vile, despicable alleged 'fans'
> of Mario Lanza one could ever imagine."
>
> http://www.quicktopic.com/30/H/ECKcxtRbxUTNy
>
> LOL - the only thing he left out was our proclivity for autofellatio.
>
> V.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 4/20/05 9:01 PM, "lmsanger at sbcglobal.net" <lmsanger at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Yes, it sounds very reasonable--for someone who wasn't there.
> Unfortunately, it is still very misleading.
>
> Since I was there and I know precisely how it started, apparently unlike
> *ANYBODY* writing about this subject here, let me rewrite your conclusion:
>
> "Jimbo Wales had a vision for a free online encyclopedia; he hired Larry
> Sanger to be the project's editor-in-chief, and he, with a voluntary
> advisory board, worked up Nupedia as a first stab at this vision.  There
> were problems with Nupedia's system, which Larry was tasked to solve.  Larry
> heard about wikis one evening over dinner and the very next day, or the day
> after, as a direct and sole result, laid down the first strokes of what
> would become Wikipedia.  Jimmy said later, in 2005, as an interesting bit of
> historical trivia, that someone else first suggested a wiki encyclopedia to
> him.  This suggestion, however, had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with
> the origination of Wikipedia, nor did Jimmy mean to suggest that it did."
>
Gotta love Larry.

One bit of historical footnoting--while Larry may have had reservations
about the term NPOV, he did work to codify it, writing a (in my opinion)
hard-to-parse, discursive formulation of the "neutral point of view" policy,
which I tried to help clarify, but which he took umbrage at.

He was getting a bit personal by the end. This is the type of dialogue which
Larry and I engaged in soon before he left the project:

Me: "LMS: I'm not trying to act as a check on your rampant authority."
LMS: "Like hell you aren't. It's your purpose in life on Wikipedia. It's
what you live for."

One thing he didn't note in his history is that "Is Wikipedia an experiment
in anarchy?" was written as a direct response to what he perceived as my
destructive behavior (to wit: "But I'm going to write an essay that goes to
what I see as being the heart of the matter behind Cunctator's repeated
disruptions of Wikipedia.").

For some reason (and I think we see this again now) LMS perceived arguments
against his actions as attacks on his person. He strongly believed I had a
vendetta against him, even though I repeatedly said I didn't. And I don't.

Some useful history on the personality/decision-tree conflicts can be found
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_Cunctator/Bias_Talk


body:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2005 at 05:48:26PM +0200, Viajero wrote:
> LOL - the only thing he left out was our proclivity for autofellatio.

Nonsense.  He left out a lot more than that, like the fact that we're
all pinko commies and bourgeoisie corporate fat-cats and religious
nutcases and . . .

Well.  I think the list goes on for quite a while.

--
Chad Perrin
[ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]


from_name: Alex Regh

subject: [WikiEN-l] Opus Dei - have we become their publishing house?

body:
Hi!

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:33:37 +0100, Charles Matthews wrote:

>However, the talk around the page is clearly
>very volatile.  Your language on the talk page seemed a little too sharp for
>the requirements of the situation.  I prefer to bring this up here, rather
>than anywhere else.

Excuse me, but on re-reading the talk page I can really not find any comment
that would warrant an extended debate on this mailing list. I do find however
that you do not seem to mind to bring up this completely unwarranted criticism
of my person on the talk page as well, so you *did* bring it up elsewhere. I
dunno, but maybe there are worthier aims of your criticism, like the people
that made the article in question into what it was yesterday. You do not seem
to be particular inclined to criticise them, are you?

Nevertheless, methinks this is an utterly pointless debate, so if you have a
_valid_ point to make, make it, and once will be enough, too. Otherwise, why
don't you do something constructive?

Alex
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
        --- Jim Steinman ---

Alex' Assorted Homepages: www.alexsite.de


from_name: ZH Wikipedia

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Fwd: e-culture fair 2006 in the netherlands

body:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Martijn de Waal <mw at dds.nl>
Date: Apr 20, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: e-culture fair 2006 in the netherlands
To: zh.wikipedia at gmail.com
Cc: shizhao at gmail.com

Hello,

My name is Martijn de Waal, I am a writer and researcher from the
Netherlands. Currently I am doing some work for the E-culture Fair, a
grass roots conference on digital culture to be hosted in the
Netherlands in 2006.

The E-culture Fair is a biennial new media event in which new
technologies are showcased and the impact of technology on culture and
society is discussed. Goal of the e-culture conference is to bring
specialists together from culture, research, business and industry.
The event is organized by several Dutch think tanks and NGO's, and is
sponsored by the Dutch Government. Dutch Minister of Culture
(staatssecretaris) Medy van der Laan was one of the speakers at the
most recent E-culture Fair. We are very much interested in grassroots
inititaives such as Wikipedia or creative commons.

More information can be found at the website

http://www.e-culturefair.nl/site/index_en.html

For the 2006 edition of the e-culture fair, the organization is
turning its focus to the East, and is interested in learning about
interesting or promising new media initiatives in China. We are
looking for innovative products, applications, research projects, art
works, design, methods of storytelling, education or communication.

I will travel to Beijing and Shanghai in the first two weeks of may to
make some initial contacts, and I was wondering whether anyone at your
team would be around in those places during that period, whom I could
invite for a cup of coffee or tea?

Martijn de Waal
Curator China E-culture Fair 2006

http://www.e-culturefair.nl/site/index_en.html


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
It's very simple. Just ask somebody who uses this list and has a
g-mail account to search for "sanger" or "larry".

Of course, what I said is exaggerating a little, but not a lot - it
really does sound like that except perhaps the cackling part.

Mark

On 20/04/05, The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
> On 4/20/05 12:12 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > You guys make Larry into a greedy, despicable man who has hated
> > Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
> > since then has done everything in his power to bring about its
> > destruction. According to you guys, he also walks around telling
> > people how he started Wikipedia, and cackling maniacally at the end of
> > every other sentence.
>
> I'd love to see references for the above claims (inferences?). I think you
> might be distorting what other people have said.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikipedia-l] de: DVD sold 10,000 in two days?!

body:
I just read that on Angela's blog. Now, that indicates a ready and willing
market.

Is there a page detailing the process? Even one in German would be good to
see. How did they do the sifting? Did they do any sifting? etc.

Specifically, I'm wondering how possible it is to do something like this
for en: before MediaWiki 1.5 (when the ratings system goes live) and 1.6
(when we might actually do something with the data).

- d.


from_name: slimvirgin at gmail.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking

body:
On 4/20/05, noahp4485 at aol.com <noahp4485 at aol.com> wrote:
> I honestly believe many admins are abusing their blocking privileges
> and that the arbitration committee is not working. Here is what has
> happened to me. I have written and edited NUMEROUS articles, you can
> see a list on user:Please Don't Block. Most of these were edited under
> the name "Noah Peters."

I wrote to Noah about this issue a couple of weeks ago because I
stumbled on it and it seemed odd. He replied to me this evening and
asked me to delete the user and talk pages for all these accounts,
which I have now done (with the exception of the talk page of Noah
Peters, which can't be deleted because of some technical problem, so
I've blanked and protected it instead).

I've advised Noah to start from scratch with a new user account so his
IP is not visible, and then he'll be able to rebuild his profile. So
long as he sticks to Wikipedia policies, he shouldn't have any
problems.

Sarah


body:
Mathias Schindler (neubau at presroi.de) [050421 01:19]:
> David Gerard wrote:

> >I just read that on Angela's blog. Now, that indicates a ready and willing
> >market.

> I agree. That also indicates a ready and willing market for en.wikipedia.

That's precisely what I'm thinking ;-)

> >Is there a page detailing the process? Even one in German would be good to
> >see.

> This is for the Fall-2004-CD:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia-CD/Erfahrungsbericht
> This is for the Spring 2005-CD/DVD
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia-Distribution/Erfahrungsbericht_Erstellung

I do have a course in learning German here that I need to work through!

> >Specifically, I'm wondering how possible it is to do something like this
> >for en: before MediaWiki 1.5 (when the ratings system goes live) and 1.6
> >(when we might actually do something with the data).

> Ask Magnus Manske for his code.

Yes, those are the current plans as I understand them :-) The idea being
that there's no point doing anything with the numbers from ratings until we
know what the ratings look like.

> You have actually two problems regarding text:
> * Is the article itself "fit" for the DVD/CD?
> * Was it vandalized recently?
> Besides several hundred smaller issues (Template Tags, Links to another
> namespaces..)

Yep.

- d.


from_name: Jimmy Wales

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Rowan Collins wrote:
> As such, I think the problem we are all struggling with is this:
> -> "What does it mean to 'create' an idea?"
> Like "Who invented the telephone?" the question of "Who invented
> Wikipedia?" may be best viewed as an unanswerable question, as it is
> simply too easy to redefine. Thus Larry is defining it in such a way
> that the answer is "Larry", and Jimbo is defining it in such a way
> that the answer is "Jeremy, and Jimbo, and also Larry".

Just to be clear, I'm not making any sort of claim or definition about
that at all.  I've just reported on an interesting bit of historical trivia.

> Nobody is denying that Larry had an extremely
> important role in the early development of Wikipedia; and nobody is
> claiming that Jeremy had more than a fleeting role in the idea.

Precisely.

--Jimbo


from_name: Michael Stojakovic

subject: [WikiEN-l] Contribution

body:
Greetings Wikipedia

          I thoroughly enjoy your "Wikipedia" site. It's a great source of information and enlightenment. Being a Canadian, of Serbian descent, it's the cultural aspects that grab my attention. Not only for those that share my ethnic background. But, other groups as well.
          I'm assuming that my e-mail will be directed to the proper channels. On your "List of Serbs" page, there are a few glaring omissions I wish to bring to your attention. I, for the most part, have supplied links which clearly indicate the person's Serbian heritage. These names should be under "List of Serbs."
           (1) Alex Lifeson (Zivojinovich) - Guitarist for the Canadian based rock band "Rush." > http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0509820/bio .
           (2) Brad Dexter (Boris Milanovich) -  Hollywood actor > http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0223290/bio .
           (3) Lolita Davidovich - Hollywood actress > http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0000357/bio .
           (4) Paul Stojanovich - Hollywood producer/director for "World's Wildest Police Chases" and "Cops." > http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0831236/bio .
           (5) Rade Serbedzija -  European/Hollywood actor (Currently listed amongst "List of Croatians" as an "ethnic Serb". While he was born in Croatia. Mr. Serbedzija is indeed Serbian. Thus, he should also be under "List of Serbs."). > http://entertainment.lycos.com/celebrities/celebrity_bio.asp?id=12926&pagetemplate=purple .
           (6) Bill Vukovich - Won "Indy 500" twice. > http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Vukovich_Bill.html .
           (7) Peter Vuckovich - Baseball player who won the Cy Young Award > http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brew/aug02/65191.asp (Read under "Brewers rally" and "Questions umpire").
            (8) Walter Dropo - Baseball player who was named AL Rookie-of-the-Year in 1950. > http://apse.dallasnews.com/contest1999/writing/100-250.hartford8.html .
            (9) Peter Zezel - Hockey (NHL) player from Canada. > http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume7/countries/serbia10.html .
          (10) George Yerich - Respected entrepreneur from Canada > http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume7/countries/serbia7.html .
           (11) George "Blind Bomber" Glamack - Basketball player who had his #20 retired by UNC and was a two-time NCAA Player-of-the-Year.
           (12) Bob O'Billovich - Football (CFL) coach who won the "Grey Cup" while with the Toronto Argonauts.
           (13) Mila Mulroney (nee Pivnicki) - Was Canada's "First Lady." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mila_Pivnicki or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Mulroney .
           (14) Rose Ann Vuich - First woman to be elected to the State Senate in California. > http://www.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/history.htp .
            (15) Gregg Popovich - Basketball coach and two-time NBA champion. > http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/quotes_spurs_030611.html (Read last "Q & A" under "David Robinson).
            (16) Mel Vojvodich - U.S.A.F. officer. > http://www.landings.com/_landings/pacflyer/dec6-2003/Dn-50-mel-vojvodich.html .
            (17) Mike Mamula - Football (NFL) player (now retired).

            One name you can easily omit from the "List of Serbs" is that of actor John Malkovich. He's of Croatian ancestry. Not Serbian. Again, I hope this e-mail will be forwarded to the proper sources within "Wikipedia." Thanks so much for your time and patience. I look forward to a reply at your convenience. Cheers.

Michael D. Stojakovic
Canada


from_name: noahp4485 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking

body:
I honestly believe many admins are abusing their blocking privileges
and that the arbitration committee is not working. Here is what has
happened to me. I have written and edited NUMEROUS articles, you can
see a list on user:Please Don't Block. Most of these were edited under
the name "Noah Peters." In December and January I engaged in a heated
contest with several other users over the Abraham Lincoln page, much of
which I have written, over whether to include Lincoln's alleged
homosexuality on the page. This provoked a long editing war which
resulted in the material being deleted. After this, I started editing
the "gays in Nazi Germany" article. These edits were in good faith. But
one user, Apollomelos, a self-described homosexual, began smearing me
with all sorts of false charges, including that I vandalized the
Abraham Lincoln page (not true) and that I am a member of the Ku Klux
Klan (also not true). I grew very alarmed at these allegations and
requested my username be changed to "5440orFight," because "Noah
Peters" is my real name and I don't want to get smeared with these
charges. Well, the admins were totally insensitive to this desire and
referred to "Noah Peters" repeatedly in a derisive way, many branding
me a homophobe, and still do to this day even though the username is
dead. Indeed, many admins have hurled false charges against that
username to this day. For example, my userpage now says, "As Noah
Peters he had a habit of reverting pages or removing the texts of
others, was warned and switched to 5440orFight and got blocked by an
Admin under that name for continuing the same practice." This is
completely untrue, and yet whenever I try to change my userpage it gets
changed back by some admin, and if I persist in trying to change it I
am blocked.

  Out of frustration with Apollomelos' charges, I had a fit of bad
judgment and added the now-deleted "gay" template to various articles.
I was promptly blocked by fvw, another homosexual administrator, who no
longer works on wikipedia. Frustrated at the fact that my IP username
page included charges against me that were not true yet kept being
reverted back by various admins when I tried to delete them, I deleted
fvw's page repeatedly in retaliation for my own inability to edit my
personal page. I also made ill-tempered remarks to other admins who
reverted my repeated attempts to delete my userpages. Meanwhile, my
efforts to get my username changed have gone nowhere, and I panicked
and emailed an admin to tell him to please delete my username; I didn't
want my reputation ruined.

Then, Apollomelos decides he wants to pursue arbitration against me,
taking several of my quotes out of context and embellishing with false
charges. I was never informed arbitration was being pursued against me,
but it was. Apollomelos has done this to several other users; putting
quotes out of context and making misleading edits and over-the-top
allegations. He also does not allow edits to the gay-themed pages and
smears anyone who changes these pages as "homophobes" if they write
anything he doesn't agree with. Read his talk page. In another fit of
ill-temper, to combat his own charges against me, I created
user:Apollomelos2 and user:Apollomelos3. I can't delete Apollomelos2,
even though it was blocked as soon as I created it, it must remain,
"Abusive sockpuppet of Noah Peters."

Now, whenever I try to get a new username, it is blocked for being an
"abusive sockpuppet of Noah Peters." Whenever I try to delete the pages
of my old usernames which bear the title, "abusive Sockpuppet of Noah
Peters" (never mind that "Noah Peters" no longer exists) and which are
now blocked, they are reverted back; I have absolutely no control over
them; they must remain as monuments to Apollomelos' false charges and
my bad response to them. The admins don't understand why I have to get
a new username and instead assume I am creating a username for
vandalism. So I can't have a new username. This is really frustrating.
It is also frustrating that the "Noah Peters" username has attracted a
false reputation for bad and misleading edits when all of my edits
under that name, except for some ill-temper that was provoked, was of
strerling quality.

The latest thing is that I chose the username, Jesus H. Christ III.
Refdoc blocked this permanently on account of it being offensive;
though if I had known it would be offensive, which I did not (Jesus
Christ is a cultural figure too, I didn't know that anyone on wikipedia
would care), I wouldn't have damned well picked it in the first place.
No one will ever be able to edit under it again unless Refdoc wills it
to be so. I can't delete the userpage either; it must be reverted back.
I can't delete the false charges against me from any userpage; they
must remain because the admins said so.

I then picked a new username and complained about my treatment on
Refdoc's talk page. His response was to ban my new username for, of
couse, "obvious reasons."

I have never been able to communicate with anyone on wikipedia; no
human interface to explain what has happened, to explain that I have
added a lot to wikipedia and want to be forgiven. The first instinct is
always to ban me; always to revert without asking me; always to assume
my bad motives; never to communicate.

I want all references to "Noah Peters" deleted. The username is banned
permanently and I want admins to stop damn well referencing it. I want
to be anonymous with an anonymous username not smeared as a sockpuppet
so I can edit without fear to my reputation. And this process has been
hellish for me. This is a community of mistrust and anger, of abusive
edit wars, of sarcasm, of contempt; not of support.

NP


from_name: Poor, Edmund W

body:
> "As you know, Derek and those he is defending - his
> associates-in-hiding - are chortling with delight as
> they continually delete ...

I take offense at the sheer viscosity of this torrent of slander. But
that's all water under the bridge (my pathetic liquid ego, conceit and
arrogance are still very much intact ;-)

Uncle Ed
King of the self-regarding egomaniacs


subject: [WikiEN-l] vandalism on wikipage "Automated Transfer Vehicle"

body:
Hi, I've consistently updated this wikipage by supporting edits with
European Space Agency external links.

Could you please ban user 68.165.99.171
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=68.165.99.171>
who is coninuously and arbitrarily editing the page without a single
external reference?

thanks

Jovibon


list: wikitech-l

subject: [Wikitech-l] hardware order

body:
Tony Sidaway (minorityreport at bluebottle.com) [050421 04:59]:
> Jimmy Wales said:
> > Tony Sidaway wrote:

> >> For stability, really it's hard to beat BSD if it'll talk to your
> >> hardware.

> > Do we have any practical problems with OS stability?

> If not, stick with what you have.

Well, yeah. Every Unix is pretty much reliable enough for these purposes.
At that point it can be a bigger problem adapting to the funny little ways
of a different OS than whatever improvements may come with a change.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Kate has mentioned that a server or two are being tested on FreeBSD, which
she prefers personally, but the fact it's a different OS means a new set of
quirks to learn. Which is presumably worth learning about, but is an
important factor to consider.

- d.


from_name: Charles Matthews

body:
Alex Regh wrote

>Excuse me, but on re-reading the talk page I can really not find any
>comment
that would warrant an extended debate on this mailing list.

OK, if you want it in precise terms: your edit comment

Re-added {{TotallyDisputed}} - the content is still so much POV as I have
never seen before on WP)

seems to not to be calculated to calm things down, but to make it all more
adversarial.  I see this morning that The Anome's fresh start has been
reverted.

You asked for help; you have a couple of experienced admins now trying to
help with the page; you said you couldn't revert far back enough.  If you
really request that help arrive in helicopters, I think you should tolerate
some talk directed at yourself.

Charles


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 4/21/05 3:28 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's very simple. Just ask somebody who uses this list and has a
> g-mail account to search for "sanger" or "larry".
>
> Of course, what I said is exaggerating a little, but not a lot - it
> really does sound like that except perhaps the cackling part.
>
> Mark
>
> On 20/04/05, The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
>> On 4/20/05 12:12 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You guys make Larry into a greedy, despicable man who has hated
>>> Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
>>> since then has done everything in his power to bring about its
>>> destruction. According to you guys, he also walks around telling
>>> people how he started Wikipedia, and cackling maniacally at the end of
>>> every other sentence.
>>
>> I'd love to see references for the above claims (inferences?). I think you
>> might be distorting what other people have said.
>>
Okay--you've got a gmail account. Would you do the search?


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 21, Issue 53

body:
Feel free.

I think we should cast Ben Affleck as Larry and Ice-T as Jimbo.

Mark

On 21/04/05, Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
> > The point being, it's a small business which I don't think ever
> > had more than 30 or so employees at one time. From what I can
> > tell, the occurances are just Larry walking up to Jimmy in his
> > office saying "Yo Jimbo, I been thinkin yo, howzabout we try
> > that wicked Wikiwiki soffware wit Nupedia? Whatcha think bout
> > that man?" and Jimmy saying "Yo Larry my man, dat is a wikked
> > awesome idea!"
>
> Can I copy this to [[wikibooks: Wikipedia (film script)]] ?
>
> --
>   Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
>   Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 4/21/05 10:01 AM, "Alphax" <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:

> The Cunctator wrote:
>> On 4/21/05 3:28 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 20/04/05, The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/20/05 12:12 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> You guys make Larry into a greedy, despicable man who has hated
>>>>> Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
>>>>> since then has done everything in his power to bring about its
>>>>> destruction. According to you guys, he also walks around telling
>>>>> people how he started Wikipedia, and cackling maniacally at the end of
>>>>> every other sentence.
>>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see references for the above claims (inferences?). I think you
>>>> might be distorting what other people have said.
>>>>
>>> It's very simple. Just ask somebody who uses this list and has a
>>> g-mail account to search for "sanger" or "larry".
>>>
>>> Of course, what I said is exaggerating a little, but not a lot - it
>>> really does sound like that except perhaps the cackling part.
>>>
>> Okay--you've got a gmail account. Would you do the search?
>>
> I have both a gmail account and access to a text dump of the list - what
> should I search for? I'm curious what you think we'll find.

According to Mark W., if you search for "sanger" or "larry", you should find
people calling or implying that Sanger is a "greedy, despicable man who has
hated Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
since then has done everything in his power to bring about its destruction."

I'm interested in seeing if the above claim is accurate.


from_name: Edward O'Connor

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Hi Larry, everybody,

> Who is Jeremy Rosenfeld? I'm afraid I don't remember[...] Was he one
> of the people doing link weeding for Bomis?

Yup!

> It was January 2 and Ben Kovitz and I were eating at a Mexican
> restaurant just around the corner from the old Bomis office. (I could
> point out the place, if it still exists, but I forget the name.)

At the time, it was Taco Express #2, but I think it's something
different now.

Ted

--
Edward O'Connor
hober0 at gmail.com

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
> Oh wait, that's it. Nothing much that appears to support the "greedy
> larry" theory.

Since, of course, Delirium's e-mail had nothing to do with that.

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Magnus Manske

subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise have
to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).

I have patched the class to some degree to suppress error messages, and
to prevent showing bogus EXIF data where none exists.

As I recall, automatic EXIF data display has been on the "wanted
feature" list for quite some time. So, rejoice! ;-)

Magnus

[1] http://www.vinayras.com/project/phpexifrw.php
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from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 4/20/05, lmsanger at sbcglobal.net <lmsanger at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> To Andrew Lih: Andrew, let me throw this back at you: who has ever proven
> that all of the bulleted items *were* essential to the success of Wikipedia?
> Why assume without argument that they were? Making unwarranted assumptions
> is the enemy of critical thinking and problem solving.

You were the one who wrote the memoir and put forth the assertions without
supporting argument, and it's up to me to prove the negative? It seems the
"critical thinking" lapse is not on my end. I simply asked you to elaborate
on them, because they're contrary to current community norms that are quite
widely attributed as the reasons for the project's success.

My question is - are you familiar with Benkler's "Coase's Penguin" and his
thoughts about peer production? Have you tried to compare your views on
"anti-elitism" and "make special roles for experts from the very beginning"
against current scholarship on the operation of open source projects and
commons-based peer production? I'd be interested to hear your insight,
because I do think you could add much to the field. And since you are in
academia, and an important part of the history of Wikipedia, it is a natural
extension of that area of scholarship. It would be great to see the next
Slashdot or Kur5hin article be, "On commons-based peer production, by the
co-founder of Wikipedia "

Despite the many Wikipedian villagers with torches and pitchforks running
you out of town, I'd find it eminently more useful if you stayed and engaged
in dialogue, on a whole range of issues:

* the socio-psychological rewards of participation, something I haven't seen
addressed much in your writings
* jealousy/altruism factor in Microsoft's Encarta's recent "wiki-like"
adaptation, which is more like Nupedia's model and has a regard for experts
in the final review process
* the sifting process, which you were a part of, and has gained more
momentum in recent months

-Andrew Lih (User:Fuzheado)


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Abusive Blocking

body:
--- slimvirgin at gmail.com wrote:
> On 4/20/05, noahp4485 at aol.com <noahp4485 at aol.com>
> wrote:
> > I honestly believe many admins are abusing their
> blocking privileges
> > and that the arbitration committee is not working.
> Here is what has
> > happened to me. I have written and edited NUMEROUS
> articles, you can
> > see a list on user:Please Don't Block. Most of
> these were edited under
> > the name "Noah Peters."
>
> I wrote to Noah about this issue a couple of weeks
> ago because I
> stumbled on it and it seemed odd. He replied to me
> this evening and
> asked me to delete the user and talk pages for all
> these accounts,
> which I have now done (with the exception of the
> talk page of Noah
> Peters, which can't be deleted because of some
> technical problem, so
> I've blanked and protected it instead).
>
> I've advised Noah to start from scratch with a new
> user account so his
> IP is not visible, and then he'll be able to rebuild
> his profile. So
> long as he sticks to Wikipedia policies, he
> shouldn't have any
> problems.
>
> Sarah

So long as he doesn't try to get another User's User
ID and account moved, like he tried once before.

RickK

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Tony Sidaway

subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
David Gerard said:
> Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050421 19:27]:
>
>> I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
>> display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
>> used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise
>> have to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).
>
>
> Cool :-) I assume the resulting data will be editable?

If it is, I hope a history is preserved.  The EXIF data is an integral
part of the copyrighted data in the image, and editing the EXIF could
obscure information relating to ownership.


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
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Hash: SHA1

Tim Starling schrieb:
> Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>>I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
>>display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
>>used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise have
>>to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).
>>
>>I have patched the class to some degree to suppress error messages, and
>>to prevent showing bogus EXIF data where none exists.
>>
>>As I recall, automatic EXIF data display has been on the "wanted
>>feature" list for quite some time. So, rejoice! ;-)
>
>
> Would you consider putting that information into the database? A
> metadata blob would do the trick, with some method to distinguish values
> set by various extensions. Your patch won't work for apaches which have
> no access to the commons filesystem, which is how we intend to set up
> the Yahoo/Belnet/Kennisnet apaches. Image::getImagePath() will return false.

Can do. How about img_metadata, with XML? We could add more EXIF data or
other metadata about the image there. Or would that be too slow to parse?

Another way would be to keep it as it is, and add a special mode to
ImagePage.php, which would return the EXIF table in plain text; that
could be read in by the "calling" wikipedia.

Now that I think of it: Why not include the EXIF data in the
Special:Export XML for the image description page? That way, we could
display EXIF data, image comment, (last) author of the description page
etc. in the "calling" wikipedia, which is a wanted feature anyway.

Magnus
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from_name: Dori

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
On 4/21/05, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
>
> Can do. How about img_metadata, with XML? We could add more EXIF data or
> other metadata about the image there. Or would that be too slow to parse?
>

Might I suggest file_metadata, we don't want to get stuck with img for files
again. I could see how metadata for other files might be useful. Just have
one of the fields be the type of file.


from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
On 4/21/05, lmsanger at sbcglobal.net <lmsanger at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Richard Holton wrote:
> > > My conclusion?
> > > "Jimbo Wales had a vision for a free online encyclopedia;
> > he and his
> > > employee Larry Sanger worked up Nupedia as a first stab at this
> > > vision; after hearing about wikis - which Jimbo had also recently
> > > discussed with another employee, Jeremy Rosenfeld - Larry laid down
> > > the first strokes of what would become Wikipedia."

> Yes, it sounds very reasonable--for someone who wasn't there.
> Unfortunately, it is still very misleading.

I'm sorry you think so. Let's work on it:

> "Jimbo Wales had a vision for a free online encyclopedia; he hired Larry
> Sanger to be the project's editor-in-chief, and he, with a voluntary
> advisory board, worked up Nupedia as a first stab at this vision.  There
> were problems with Nupedia's system, which Larry was tasked to solve.  Larry
> heard about wikis one evening over dinner and the very next day, or the day
> after, as a direct and sole result, laid down the first strokes of what
> would become Wikipedia.  Jimmy said later, in 2005, as an interesting bit of
> historical trivia, that someone else first suggested a wiki encyclopedia to
> him.  This suggestion, however, had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with
> the origination of Wikipedia, nor did Jimmy mean to suggest that it did."

This version simply says the same thing, with more detail. OK, so it's
obviously not *exactly* the same, but it boils down to much the same
thing, IMHO.

> What some people seem to want to be true is this: "Jeremy Rosenfeld got the
> idea for Wikipedia, which he conveyed to Jimmy.  Jimmy then told Larry to
> start it, which he did."  That is completely false.  No:

That is certainly *not* what *my* "conclusion" said, although people
do seem to have got that impression from other parts of the
discussion.

> "Larry got the idea; Larry asked Jimmy to set up the wiki software on the
> server, which he (or Jason Richey) did; then Larry got to work."

The only thing I was trying to add to this was the fact - reflected in
your "memoir", unless I'm misunderstanding it - that you had to "sell"
the new idea to Jimmy after your epiphanous dinner. It is therefore
historically important that he accepted it; you suggest that "After he
had nixed my several earlier proposals, and given that setting up a
wiki would be very simple and require hiring no programmer, Jimmy
could scarcely refuse".

Is it not possible - indeed likely, unless Jimmy is actually lying -
that the fact that he had discussed a similar concept with someone
else *helped warm him to the idea*? And if so, does that conversation
not have a small bearing on the existence of the wiki - not as an
agent in making it happen, or shaping it, but like a Butterfly Effect;
a small event which may have just been coincidence, but seems notable
with hindsight.

So perhaps: "Larry got the idea; Larry told Jimmy about it; Jimmy had
discussed something similar with Jeremy Rosenfeld, but not in any
detail; Larry talked Jimmy into setting it up; then Larry got to
work."

Or, in the style of my original "conclusion":
"Jimbo Wales had a vision for a free online encyclopedia; he hired Larry
Sanger to oversee the project, who - together with a team of
volunteers - worked up Nupedia as a first stab at this vision. While
thinking of ways to solve problems with Nupedia's current model, Larry
heard about wikis over dinner with Ben Kovitz and came up with the
idea of a wiki-based encyclopedia. Larry suggested this to Jimmy (who,
coincidentally, had once discussed something vaguely similar with
Jeremy Rosenfeld) and was given the go-ahead. Larry then proceeded to
lay down the first strokes of what would become Wikipedia."

Or, finally, I quite like the current wording in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Wikipedia (although it doesn't
mention, as Jimmy now has, that Jeremy literally suggested a
wiki-encyclopedia):
"On the evening of 2 January 2001, Sanger had a conversation over
dinner with Ben Kovitz, a computer programmer, in San Diego,
California. Kovitz, who was a regular on "Ward's Wiki" (the Portland
Pattern Repository), explained the wiki concept to Sanger. Sanger saw
that a wiki would be an excellent format whereby a more open, less
formal encyclopedia project could be pursued. Sanger easily persuaded
Wales, who had been introduced to the wiki concept previously, to set
up a wiki for Nupedia, and Nupedia's first wiki went online on 10
January."

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
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Tim Starling schrieb:
> Magnus Manske wrote:
>
>>Can do. How about img_metadata, with XML? We could add more EXIF data or
>>other metadata about the image there. Or would that be too slow to parse?
>
>
> I lean towards serialized PHP objects or arrays for this kind of
> storage, but you can suit yourself. XML is good for exchanging data
> across a variety of systems, an application which has never excited me
> very much.

OK, img_exif is in, as a serialized array. Don't forget to update your
image table! :-)

I will add a function to update the img_exif field if it is empty, when
viewing an image; that way, all exiting images will get updated
automatically, in time.

Magnus
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from_name: Lars Aronsson

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

> The point being, it's a small business which I don't think ever
> had more than 30 or so employees at one time. From what I can
> tell, the occurances are just Larry walking up to Jimmy in his
> office saying "Yo Jimbo, I been thinkin yo, howzabout we try
> that wicked Wikiwiki soffware wit Nupedia? Whatcha think bout
> that man?" and Jimmy saying "Yo Larry my man, dat is a wikked
> awesome idea!"

Can I copy this to [[wikibooks: Wikipedia (film script)]] ?

--
  Lars Aronsson (lars at aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se


subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
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Tony Sidaway schrieb:
> David Gerard said:
>
>>Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050421 19:27]:
>>
>>
>>>I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
>>>display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
>>>used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise
>>>have to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).
>>
>>
>>Cool :-) I assume the resulting data will be editable?
>
>
> If it is, I hope a history is preserved.  The EXIF data is an integral
> part of the copyrighted data in the image, and editing the EXIF could
> obscure information relating to ownership.

Neither, for good reasons :-)

The EXIF data is part of the image file. It is generated at the moment
the photo is made. I'm just extracting it from there.

There's no point editing EXIF data for us; the only field one should
edit would be the description and, well, we can already do that :-)

I do not store the history in the old image table, as it can be
retrieved from the image itself.

Magnus
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from_name: Phil Boswell

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
"Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote in message
news:42679D04.2060805 at web.de...
> monk at zoomcon.com schrieb:
>> could you post the link to any image with EXIF just to see what it
>> looks like?
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Town_hall%2C_Reims%2C_France_2004-11-05.jpg

What am I looking for? I'm getting nothing like your screen shot: it just
looks like an normal image page.
--
Phil
[[en:user:Phil Boswell]]


subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
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monk at zoomcon.com schrieb:
> Hello Magnus,
>
> Thursday, April 21, 2005, 12:27:35 PM, you wrote:
>
>
>>I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
>>display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
>>used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise have
>>to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).
>
>
> could you post the link to any image with EXIF just to see what it
> looks like?

Most images made with digital cameras have EXIF data. Try this one:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Town_hall%2C_Reims%2C_France_2004-11-05.jpg

You can see a demo screenshot with EXIF data here:

http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/EXIF-screenshot.png

Magnus
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from_name: monk at zoomcon.com

subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
Hello Magnus,

Thursday, April 21, 2005, 12:27:35 PM, you wrote:

> I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
> display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
> used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise have
> to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).

could you post the link to any image with EXIF just to see what it
looks like?

--
Best regards,
 monk                            mailto:monk at zoomcon.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Test wiki

body:
I've got a 1.5 test wiki now up for you kind folks to use and abuse:

http://test.leuksman.com/

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
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Dori schrieb:
> On 4/21/05, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
>
>>Can do. How about img_metadata, with XML? We could add more EXIF data or
>>other metadata about the image there. Or would that be too slow to parse?
>>
>
>
> Might I suggest file_metadata, we don't want to get stuck with img for files
> again. I could see how metadata for other files might be useful. Just have
> one of the fields be the type of file.

It is img_exif now.

Magnus
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Test wiki

body:
Thomas Gries wrote:
> Brion,
> can you please also set up REL1_4 + ENOTIF ?
> But then, I publish and send you a newer code than current
> http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454

A 1.4 backport has no future, so I'd rather not waste time and effort
maintaining it. But feel free to set one up on your own web site.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
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Phil Boswell schrieb:
> "Magnus Manske" <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote in message
> news:42679D04.2060805 at web.de...
>
>>monk at zoomcon.com schrieb:
>>
>>>could you post the link to any image with EXIF just to see what it
>>>looks like?
>>
>>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Town_hall%2C_Reims%2C_France_2004-11-05.jpg
>
>
> What am I looking for? I'm getting nothing like your screen shot: it just
> looks like an normal image page.

That's because the EXIF code is in CVS HEAD (aka MediaWiki 1.5
pre-beta), while commons is running 1.4.x

If you want to play, you'll have to setup a CVS HEAD snapshot on your
own server, or wait for Brion to finally, *finally* (see a pattern
here?) setup a demo site :-)

Magnus
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subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> Phil Boswell schrieb:
>>>What am I looking for? I'm getting nothing like your screen shot: it just
>>>looks like an normal image page.
>
> If you want to play, you'll have to setup a CVS HEAD snapshot on your
> own server, or wait for Brion to finally, *finally* (see a pattern
> here?) setup a demo site :-)

Here ya go:
http://test.leuksman.com/index.php/Image:Town_hall%2C_Reims%2C_France_2004-11-05.jpg

Might want to change the alignment on the table cells. Localized,
NonCamelCase item names might be nice too though that'll be some work.
I'm uncertain about the right-floating table; it's awfully big and seems
to weigh kind of strangely.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.5 release schedule

body:
I'd like to aggressively pursue getting 1.5 finished and out the door so
we can have a freer hand in setting things up for the coming
infrastructure changes.

Beta testing will begin on May 1, 2005.

1.5.0 release will be June 1, 2005.

Any new features need to be either *working* or *disabled in default
configuration* real soon.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Ben Brockert

subject:
[Wikitech-l] invitation to an annotated screenshot of
	modifiedrecent changes view as in ENotif v3.x

body:
From: Thomas Gries <mail at tgries.de>
>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Email_notification_%28documentation%29#Basics

Thomas,

I see that you added the number of people watching a page to the information on the watchlist page. On en, at least, this would be a security problem.

It would be interesting to be able to find unwatched pages to adopt, but it would make vandalism more durable. I can envision some of the more persitent vandals and vandabots only tampering with unwatched pages, in order to have a more lasting effect. They would still show up in recent changes, but it is much easier to slip past RC patrol than to evade the people who are watching a given page.

Is there any plan to implement this in any of the Wikipedias? Or is this targeted at third party MedaWiki installations? I see your posts on here often. You seem to have done a good job on coding, but I have heard no word on implementation.

Ben


from_name: elwp at gmx.de

subject: [Wikitech-l] Dumps

body:
There seems to be a problem with image dumps. I found only this
ominous file:

http://download.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/__imagedump_in_progress.tar
(last modified: 2005-Apr-12)

----

Will the log table be downloadable someday? (I mean the table Special:Log
is based on.)

--
+++ GMX - Die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++

1 GB Mailbox bereits in GMX FreeMail http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail


from_name: Stephan Walter

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wiki -> pdf

body:
I wrote this program, the problem is that it doesn't yet support images
on Commons (how do you check if an image is on commons? just send a GET
request an see if you get a 404?). At the moment I don't have the time
to update it. Feel free to hack it if you wish, the code is in CVS on
http://sourceforge.net/projects/wikipdf

-Stephan Walter

Leon Weber wrote:
> Jeffrey Johnson schrieb:
>>Getting image en:OudeRijnLeiden.jpg url
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OudeRijnLeiden.jpg
>>Traceback (most recent call last):


from_name: Thomas R. Koll

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wiki -> pdf

body:
On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 05:20:11PM +0200, Stephan Walter wrote:
> I wrote this program, the problem is that it doesn't yet support images
> on Commons (how do you check if an image is on commons? just send a GET
> request an see if you get a 404?). At the moment I don't have the time

that's exactly what i did with the pybot.

ciao, tom

--
== Weblinks ==
* http://verlag.tomk32.de/ - WikiReader Digest als Print-Ausgabe
* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
* http://www.hammererlehen.de - Urlaub in Berchtesgaden


from_name: Jimmy Wales

body:
For the entire history of Bomis from day one until the current day, the
percentage of revenue that comes from adult businesses has been under
10%.  The bulk of the revenue of Bomis today comes from advertising
syndicated from Google; in the past it was at various times Overture and
NBCi which provided the bulk of the revenue.

Far from being a "secret", Bomis is a public website that anyone can
look at anytime they like.  If Bomis is pornography so is much of what
happens in R rated movies.

Bomis _is_ a brand which is very different from the Wikipedia brand,
which is why I have always insisted on keeping the two very separate.

--Jimbo


from_name: Michael Keppler

subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
Magnus Manske schrieb:
> You can see a demo screenshot with EXIF data here:
>
> http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/EXIF-screenshot.png

I don't know the EXIF format, but "flashUsed" is shown twice
(numerically and as string). Maybe this is a minor glitch within the
used code. I'm sure people would report that as Wikipedia bug shortly
after releasing this feature :)

Ciao, Michael.


from_name: Tim Starling

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
> display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
> used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise have
> to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).
>
> I have patched the class to some degree to suppress error messages, and
> to prevent showing bogus EXIF data where none exists.
>
> As I recall, automatic EXIF data display has been on the "wanted
> feature" list for quite some time. So, rejoice! ;-)

Would you consider putting that information into the database? A
metadata blob would do the trick, with some method to distinguish values
set by various extensions. Your patch won't work for apaches which have
no access to the commons filesystem, which is how we intend to set up
the Yahoo/Belnet/Kennisnet apaches. Image::getImagePath() will return false.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: James D. Forrester

subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
On Thursday, April 21, 2005 6:51 PM, Michael Keppler
<Michael.Keppler at gmx.de> wrote:

> Magnus Manske schrieb:
> > You can see a demo screenshot with EXIF data here:
> >
> > http://magnusmanske.de/wikipedia/EXIF-screenshot.png
>
> I don't know the EXIF format, but "flashUsed" is shown twice
> (numerically and as string). Maybe this is a minor glitch within the
> used code. I'm sure people would report that as Wikipedia bug shortly
> after releasing this feature :)

Actually, it's "FlashUsed" -> 0 and "flashUsed" -> "No". The EXIF data is
essentially free-form, decided by the manufacturer of the camera (though it
can be edited after capture with some tools too, of course).

The main problem is that a lot of cameras use quite odd names for some of
their fields, that there are very few bits of EXIF data that are actually
particularly useful, and that a lot of the more useful ones are in fact not
generated (I'm thinking of the standard names for GPS co-ordinates -
automagical location-generation would be terribly cool, though a bit of a
privacy risk for users, of course).

I'm interested to see what Magnus will decide to do with the data.

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk
IM  : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
Magnus Manske wrote:
> Can do. How about img_metadata, with XML? We could add more EXIF data or
> other metadata about the image there. Or would that be too slow to parse?

I lean towards serialized PHP objects or arrays for this kind of
storage, but you can suit yourself. XML is good for exchanging data
across a variety of systems, an application which has never excited me
very much.

> Another way would be to keep it as it is, and add a special mode to
> ImagePage.php, which would return the EXIF table in plain text; that
> could be read in by the "calling" wikipedia.
>
> Now that I think of it: Why not include the EXIF data in the
> Special:Export XML for the image description page? That way, we could
> display EXIF data, image comment, (last) author of the description page
> etc. in the "calling" wikipedia, which is a wanted feature anyway.

The problem with using Special:Export or action=raw for this purpose is
that the wikitext in the description page must be parsed in the context
of the commons wiki. Templates must be available and namespaces must be
correct. My idea for addressing this is to introduce an action=render
which outputs an HTML fragment suitable for incorporation into the
parser output. This would also be handy for interwiki transclusion,
although it would restrict the feature to trusted sites for security
reasons.

The current plan for transmitting commons metadata is to use MySQL to
replicate the data to a local slave DB. This allows the apache to serve
requests without waiting for a 100-200ms propagation delay.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: David Gerard

subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050421 19:27]:

> I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
> display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
> used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise have
> to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).

Cool :-) I assume the resulting data will be editable?

- d.


subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
Magnus Manske (magnus.manske at web.de) [050421 22:23]:

> The EXIF data is part of the image file. It is generated at the moment
> the photo is made. I'm just extracting it from there.
> There's no point editing EXIF data for us; the only field one should
> edit would be the description and, well, we can already do that :-)
> I do not store the history in the old image table, as it can be
> retrieved from the image itself.

Oh yes. Duh. *blush*

- d.


from_name: wiki pedista

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
Hi all,

I want to start by saying that I have not read
Sanger's memories yet, just the thread on this list.
So, what I say here comes only from this list and my
(hopefully not so failing) memory.

I came to Wikipedia sometime on January 2001, and that
would make me the only non-founder wikipedian still
around.
While I don't know  anything of Larry and Jimbo's
interaction
outside the wiki, in Wikipedia itself Larry seemed
to run the
show, and either created or developed many (maybe
most)
of the conventions that we still follow. The direct
work
of Jimbo (again, just from what I remember I saw in
the wiki) was much smaller, which makes sense
considering he
had somebody hired to do the job of running an
encyclopedia, and the job was being
well done. Larry  wrote at least once a week what I
remember as "encyclicals" for wikipedia, documents
that
delved in detail in some aspect of policy, and that
then
sparked discussion about that policy or proposed
policy
in particular. At first the term that Larry used for
himself was "Editor in chief of Nupedia and main
instigator of Wikipedia", as he worked approximately
as just another wikipedian, but generating much more
policy and correcting much that the rest, nudging the
project into a direction, that has mainly been
followed ever since.

It was interesting to see The Cunctator again on the
list just to remember Larry's supposed paranoia about
him. I'm not Larry, and I felt the same way about his
attitude respect to him. The fact
that there was a main authority in Wikipedia (though
asserted that authority very slowly along his year
long tenure), was apparently offensive to some, among
them the Cunctator. Jimbo himself was thinking that
maybe a "central" authority would not be necessary
I remember a couple of lines, I don't know if they
are in the list of were part of some long erased page
on Wikipedia, where Jimbo said 'maybe Wikipedia can
run without a paid editor' to which Larry answered,
either in the page on in an email 'Larry breaks into
a cold sweet' (Jimbo's words may not be exact, Larry's
I'm pretty sure they are). This was a few months
before Larry's position was left unfunded.

The Cunctator was not the only Larry's nemesis, just
the main one, in the last couple of months of Larry's
paid tenure there were several conflict with other
users,like one that wanted to "archive" in his
personal page some vandalism offensive to Larry on
main page, and after Larry erased it accused him of
censorship (that stupid accusation was later
resurfaced between the "reasons" for the Spanish
fork).

Talking about the Spanish fork, Larrys letter
announcing he was no longer an employee was the spark
for it, but that is another long story.

In the few months that Larry stayed in the project
as a volunteer, the sport of Larry-bashing did not
decrease its popularity. Even when he was no longer
employed, he continued to be the center of negative
attention of people who disliked authority, or just
him, so I do not blame him at all for leaving
Wikipedia completely after a couple of months.

About Larry not coming to discuss policy with us in
the list, or in the wiki, is perfectly understandable,
as there were Larry-bashers waiting in the wings (and
I repeat, at least in my opinion that was not mere
paranoia). Larry had also the idea of a "Sifter" that
would use Wikipedia articles, but selected by
"experts" of Nupedian definition and posted in a
different side. I don't know why exactly the project
died, but Jimbo's opinion of it, though never
expressed, could be read from a post in which he said
(not mentionin the sifter, I must point out) that we
deserved to make a stable version of wikipedia
ourselves, not leaving that to outsiders. I suspect he
was thinking about Larry's proposed experts (I repeat,
this last thing is just speculation from my part).

I think that Larry deserves a lot of credit for what
Wikipedia is. We trust "the community" to take the
right editorial decisions, but the idea of that
community  has about wikipedia was shaped mainly by
Larry. One of the things that makes wikipedia great
is that, despite its freedom and apparent chaos,
there is an idea of what wikipedia should be and there
is the will to enforce it, even if it means partial
unpopularity by those we would like this to be
even more chaotic. Larry was our first enforcer, and,
like an old movie sheriff, probably fell for that
reason...

AstroNomer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


from_name: Thomas Gries

subject:
[Wikitech-l] invitation to an annotated screenshot of modified
 recent changes view as in ENotif v3.x

body:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Email_notification_%28documentation%29#Basics

I invite you to a very first screenshot of the modified Recent Changes
view of MediaWiki 1.4.2 plus ENotif (e-mail notification) as published
in http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454 .

Newbies to ENotif should be aware, that a chance exists that they get
puzzled by the view, because the new layout admittedly looks weird at
the first glimpse. However, I developed a reasonable scheme and regard
it as a starting point for further discussions, I need to go through.

Please feel kindly invited to visit the screenshot.
Wikinaut Tom


subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: EXIF data display

body:
Dori wrote:
> On 4/21/05, Magnus Manske <magnus.manske at web.de> wrote:
>
>>Can do. How about img_metadata, with XML? We could add more EXIF data or
>>other metadata about the image there. Or would that be too slow to parse?
>>
>
>
> Might I suggest file_metadata, we don't want to get stuck with img for files
> again. I could see how metadata for other files might be useful. Just have
> one of the fields be the type of file.

The table is called "image", all field names in that table are prefixed
with img_, that's how it's been since phase3 was written. We're already
stuck with it, it's too late.

-- Tim Starling


from_name: Alphax

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
The Cunctator wrote:

>On 4/21/05 3:28 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>It's very simple. Just ask somebody who uses this list and has a
>>g-mail account to search for "sanger" or "larry".
>>
>>Of course, what I said is exaggerating a little, but not a lot - it
>>really does sound like that except perhaps the cackling part.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>On 20/04/05, The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 4/20/05 12:12 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>You guys make Larry into a greedy, despicable man who has hated
>>>>Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
>>>>since then has done everything in his power to bring about its
>>>>destruction. According to you guys, he also walks around telling
>>>>people how he started Wikipedia, and cackling maniacally at the end of
>>>>every other sentence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I'd love to see references for the above claims (inferences?). I think you
>>>might be distorting what other people have said.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>Okay--you've got a gmail account. Would you do the search?
>
>
I have both a gmail account and access to a text dump of the list - what
should I search for? I'm curious what you think we'll find.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


subject:
[Wikitech-l] invitation to an annotated screenshot
	of	modifiedrecent changes view as in ENotif v3.x

body:
Ben Brockert schrieb:

>>http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Email_notification_%28documentation%29#Basics
>>
>>
>
>I see that you added the number of people watching a page to the information on the watchlist page. On en, at least, this would be a security problem.
>
This can be switched off for the whole wiki by sysops by the two switches
$wgRCShowWatchingUsers = false
$wgPageShowWatchingUsers = false

Then, the user option for "show number of of watching users" is also
suppressed.

Thanks for your comment.
I could also allow it for superusers only =bureaucrats, developers,
sysops. I do this already for other things such as "send me notification
mail when a new page is created" -- what's about this ?


subject: [Wikitech-l] Searchindex error

body:
Philipp wrote:
>>Es gab einen Syntaxfehler in der Datenbankabfrage. Die letzte Datenbankabfrage
>>lautete:
>>  REPLACE INTO `searchindex` (si_page,si_title,si_text) VALUES
>>  ('1209','it-dokumentation',' [... a big bunch of keywords ...] ')
>>aus der Funktion "SearchUpdate::doUpdate". MySQL meldete den Fehler "1062:
>>Duplicate entry ' ' for key 3".

That doesn't sound like it should be possible.

Have you checked the table for errors with REPAIR TABLE or myisamchk?

> Any ideas how to get this back to normal? Is there a probated way to just delete
> the existing (but obviously somehow corrupted) searchindex and rebuild with the
> PHP script afterwards? I would guess "delete * from searchindex where 1" might
> be a bit too brutal.

rebuildtextindex.php

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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body:
> Ben wrote: Is there any plan to implement this in any of the Wikipedias?

I asked Brion several times to implement is as http://test.wikipedia.org but the developers disregard (don't like) my "zoo" of enhancements.

> You seem to have done a good job on coding, but I have heard no word on implementation.

The ENotif code v2.x is in CVS HEAD since December 2004 and I recently
published my improved version ENotif v3.x for MediaWiki CVS REL1_4 (=
1.4.1/1.4.2), see http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454 .
Download address is http://www.wikinaut.de/mw/mw142+enea.tgz (repeated
here for your convenience).

Worldwide several users of MediaWiki 1.3.7+ENotif2.00 appear to be very
content with it, but are quiet :-))
Tom


subject: [Wikitech-l] Test wiki

body:
Brion,
can you please also set up REL1_4 + ENOTIF ?
But then, I publish and send you a newer code than current
http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454

Tom

Brion Vibber schrieb:

> I've got a 1.5 test wiki now up for you kind folks to use and abuse:
>
> http://test.leuksman.com/
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] Test wiki

body:
> Brion wrote: A 1.4 backport has no future, so I'd rather not waste
> time and effort
> maintaining it. But feel free to set one up on your own web site.

Is there an expected date for 1.5 ???


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
The Cunctator wrote:

>On 4/21/05 10:01 AM, "Alphax" <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>The Cunctator wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 4/21/05 3:28 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 20/04/05, The Cunctator <cunctator at kband.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 4/20/05 12:12 AM, "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You guys make Larry into a greedy, despicable man who has hated
>>>>>>Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
>>>>>>since then has done everything in his power to bring about its
>>>>>>destruction. According to you guys, he also walks around telling
>>>>>>people how he started Wikipedia, and cackling maniacally at the end of
>>>>>>every other sentence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>I'd love to see references for the above claims (inferences?). I think you
>>>>>might be distorting what other people have said.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>It's very simple. Just ask somebody who uses this list and has a
>>>>g-mail account to search for "sanger" or "larry".
>>>>
>>>>Of course, what I said is exaggerating a little, but not a lot - it
>>>>really does sound like that except perhaps the cackling part.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Okay--you've got a gmail account. Would you do the search?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I have both a gmail account and access to a text dump of the list - what
>>should I search for? I'm curious what you think we'll find.
>>
>>
>
>According to Mark W., if you search for "sanger" or "larry", you should find
>people calling or implying that Sanger is a "greedy, despicable man who has
>hated Wikipedia all along but stuck with it because it was profitable, and
>since then has done everything in his power to bring about its destruction."
>
>I'm interested in seeing if the above claim is accurate.
>
>
I found:

Delirium wrote:

> Mark Williamson wrote:
>
>> It's a good thing you're back, Larry.
>>
>> I had begun to tire of Phil Sandifer's endless attacks on your
>> character. I don't believe these will continue in your presence.
>>
>>
> I see no reason for them not to.  It's quite clear that Larry Sanger
> has not put in a minute on Wikipedia for which he was not paid.  He
> resigned and ended all involvement with the project immediately after
> he stopped receiving a paycheck for it, and his contact with the
> project since then has primarily taken the form of either attacking it
> or claiming credit for various parts of it (while still not actually
> being involved in it).
>
> -Mark
>
and

Phil Sandifer wrote:

> Perhaps people began questioning it when they notice that he only
> uses  the honorific to get press for his criticisms of a project that
> he does  not contribute to, and in fact seems to have only contributed
> to when  it was financially useful to him to do so.
>
> -Snowspinner
>
> On Apr 19, 2005, at 5:14 PM, Pete/Pcb21 wrote:
>
>>
>> Larry Sanger has again written at length about the history of
>> Wikipedia in two articles posted on Slashdot.
>>
>> Part I :
>> http://features.slashdot.org/features/05/04/18/164213.shtml?tid=95
>>
>> Part II :
>> http://features.slashdot.org/features/05/04/19/1746205.shtml?
>> tid=95&tid=149&tid=9
>>
>> Some blogworld commentary is at
>> http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2005/04/18/ sanger_on_wikipedia.php
>>
>> - including a follow-up by Sanger, giving his take on the "was he or
>> wasn't he the co-founder" debate, in particular
>>
>> "I was virtually always referred to as a co-founder until last year.
>> What has changed?
>>
>> Wikipedia was my idea (in the very robust sense explained in my
>> memoir), its main founding principles were in large part mine and
>> enforced by me, and I did more than anyone to organize it. It simply
>> would not have existed if I had started it, indeed while being
>> employed by Jimmy. It was on that basis that I was for several years
>> credibly and repeatedly called "co-founder" of the project.
>>
>> The fact that I was Jimmy's employee, which I freely admit, does not
>> mean I was not also a co-founder of the project.
>>
>> Until last year, again, this was my honorific, and until this year,
>> nobody has bothered questioning it. I wonder why."
>>
>> Pete
>>
>>
>
and

Phil Sandifer wrote:

> Hasn't Jimbo indicated a preference for not calling Larry a co-founder?
>
> -Snowspinner
>
> On Apr 19, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>> Pete/Pcb21 wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Sanger has again written at length about the history of Wikipedia
>>> in two articles posted on Slashdot.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> - including a follow-up by Sanger, giving his take on the "was he or
>>> wasn't he the co-founder" debate, in particular
>>
>>
>> I don't think any reasonable person would object to calling Larry a
>> "co-founder of Wikipedia". To call one troll on a blog comment a
>> "debate" is to blow things extraordinarily out of proportion.
>>
>> Larry hasn't been involved in the project in some three years (3/4 of
>> its lifetime), and most Wikipedians today have had little or no
>> interaction with Larry. As a result, he's seen now as an outsider, and
>> his criticisms are easily (mis)interpreted as attacks against a
>> community he's not part of.
>>
>> I've only skimmed these posts, but they seem to boil down to historical
>> trivia ("we had 24 articles not 12!") and saying we should do things
>> that are already on the roadmap (eg, a more formally-vetted release in
>> addition to the rough-and-tumble development Wikipedia).
>>
>> It'd be nice if people could avoid making a mountain out of a molehill
>> over this. Larry's not our enemy.
>>
>> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
>
and

Oh wait, that's it. Nothing much that appears to support the "greedy
larry" theory.

--
Alphax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis


list: textbook-l

from_name: kelvSYC

subject: [Textbook-l] Executive inaction?

body:
For some reason, I have the impression that important administrative
things take too long to do in Wikibooks.  For example, pages are on vfd
or speedy for months without any resolution.  A lot still has to be
transwikied out of en.wikibooks and into their language books, and
there are few who would discuss policy such as a uniform book naming
scheme (much less few who could get to any consensus or make every book
conform to such a standard).

Is there something going on that I should be aware of, or is it that
Wikibooks really is way too undermanned in terms of people in positions
of authority?

[[en:b:User:kelvSYC]], [[en:w:User:kelvSYC]], [[en:wikt:User:kelvSYC]]


from_name: Mark Williamson

body:
Oh, come on.

> For the entire history of Bomis from day one until the current day, the
> percentage of revenue that comes from adult businesses has been under
> 10%.  The bulk of the revenue of Bomis today comes from advertising
> syndicated from Google; in the past it was at various times Overture and
> NBCi which provided the bulk of the revenue.

"Under 10%" is code language for "Over 5%". Bomis is easily
"legitimised" by adding tonnes of search-engine sponsored results,
directory type stuff, syndicated adds, and the like, just to 'balance
out' the pornographic content.

Many pornographic websites which are more explicitly pornographic than
Bomis also have a search engine/syndicated advertising 'front', from
which they derive the majority of their revenue, but...

> Far from being a "secret", Bomis is a public website that anyone can
> look at anytime they like.  If Bomis is pornography so is much of what
> happens in R rated movies.

I never said Bomis was a secret. I simply said that the fact that
Bomis peddles pornography, and that the history of Wikipedia is
intricately intertwined with Bomis, is kept a secret of sorts. Read
the Wikipedia articles on the issue, you will not see much mention of
pornography, but go to #wikipedia on freenode and you will hear a much
different story.

And I remind you that in many R-rated movies, there are... well, you
can find that information at Wikipedia.

> Bomis _is_ a brand which is very different from the Wikipedia brand,
> which is why I have always insisted on keeping the two very separate.

Yes, but is not Bomis the ultimate origin of Nupedia which is the
ultimate origin of Wikipedia? You have said many things in this
discussion confirming that Nupedia and at first Wikipedia were both
Bomis projects. Sure, there was never a sign posted at Wikipedia that
said "Come Buy Porn from Bomis!", but the fact that much of the
funding for Wikipedia comes directly or indirectly (ie, through you
and other donors who profit from Bomis) from a business which makes
"less than 10%" of its revenue through pornography.

So while in your mind they may be very seperate, this is not something
that everybody follows along with, similar to your delusion that you
aren't a sort of god-king but rather just a sort of "amicus
vicipaedii" who is respected so much people tend to do what you say. I
hope that eventually you will catch on to the reality of the issue -
what real people actually really think, their real motivations rather
than those you imagine for them, and that what people think and what
you would like people to think are often very different.

Mark

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


body:
And then, of course there is the http://babes.bomis.com/ Bomis Babe Report.

While not exactly pornographic, it is obviously intended to be
"babelicious", and I can guess that not only do you make money off of
it somehow, but that you don't count it as "pornographic" (because
really, it isn't exactly.)

Mark

On 22/04/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, come on.
>
> > For the entire history of Bomis from day one until the current day, the
> > percentage of revenue that comes from adult businesses has been under
> > 10%.  The bulk of the revenue of Bomis today comes from advertising
> > syndicated from Google; in the past it was at various times Overture and
> > NBCi which provided the bulk of the revenue.
>
> "Under 10%" is code language for "Over 5%". Bomis is easily
> "legitimised" by adding tonnes of search-engine sponsored results,
> directory type stuff, syndicated adds, and the like, just to 'balance
> out' the pornographic content.
>
> Many pornographic websites which are more explicitly pornographic than
> Bomis also have a search engine/syndicated advertising 'front', from
> which they derive the majority of their revenue, but...
>
> > Far from being a "secret", Bomis is a public website that anyone can
> > look at anytime they like.  If Bomis is pornography so is much of what
> > happens in R rated movies.
>
> I never said Bomis was a secret. I simply said that the fact that
> Bomis peddles pornography, and that the history of Wikipedia is
> intricately intertwined with Bomis, is kept a secret of sorts. Read
> the Wikipedia articles on the issue, you will not see much mention of
> pornography, but go to #wikipedia on freenode and you will hear a much
> different story.
>
> And I remind you that in many R-rated movies, there are... well, you
> can find that information at Wikipedia.
>
> > Bomis _is_ a brand which is very different from the Wikipedia brand,
> > which is why I have always insisted on keeping the two very separate.
>
> Yes, but is not Bomis the ultimate origin of Nupedia which is the
> ultimate origin of Wikipedia? You have said many things in this
> discussion confirming that Nupedia and at first Wikipedia were both
> Bomis projects. Sure, there was never a sign posted at Wikipedia that
> said "Come Buy Porn from Bomis!", but the fact that much of the
> funding for Wikipedia comes directly or indirectly (ie, through you
> and other donors who profit from Bomis) from a business which makes
> "less than 10%" of its revenue through pornography.
>
> So while in your mind they may be very seperate, this is not something
> that everybody follows along with, similar to your delusion that you
> aren't a sort of god-king but rather just a sort of "amicus
> vicipaedii" who is respected so much people tend to do what you say. I
> hope that eventually you will catch on to the reality of the issue -
> what real people actually really think, their real motivations rather
> than those you imagine for them, and that what people think and what
> you would like people to think are often very different.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
> ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE


from_name: Daniel Wunsch

subject: [Wikitech-l] EXIF data display

body:
On Thursday 21 April 2005 11:27, Magnus Manske wrote:
> I have added the PHP EXIF data reader from [1] to CVS HEAD. EXIF data
> display is now turned on by default on the image page. The PHP class I
> used is independent of the EXIF PHP library, which would otherwise have
> to be linked in (recompile/won't run everywhere).

having metadata like this would be nice to have
for all kinds of files, not only images.

daniel


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Sanger's memoirs

body:
It's called "enciclopedia libre", which is funny since that's the
subtext on the Spanish Wikipedia, as in "Wikipedia - La enciclopedia
libre".

http://enciclopedia.us.es/ I believe.

I still wonder what's going on with EL/Wikipedia...

Mark

On 22/04/05, Jack Lutz <jack-lutz at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> wiki pedista wrote:
>
> >Talking about the Spanish fork, Larrys letter
> >announcing he was no longer an employee was the spark
> >for it, but that is another long story.
> >
> >
> Can you elaborate on that? There is not much information that I see, in
> English, about the Spanish fork.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE