from_name: teun spaans

body:
Gregory,

You write: "Under the "fair dealing" (or in the US "fair use") laws of most
countries we
can use works even with the explicit disapproval of the copyright holder"

And "the lawmakers or courts of most countries have realized "

I don't believe your conclusion is correct. Fair use exists in the US,
Canada and probably a bunch of (ex) UK countries. Other countries indeed
have something related, but usually the rules are much, much stricter than
what US courts allow.

It is not only Italy, it is in many other countries. For example, the Dutch
law has someting called "citaatrecht", or "citation right". This allow the
reproduction of "parts of textual works, images, sounds, ...". Though the
text is ambiguous as to the reproduction of parts of images or the
reproduction of the entire image, the latter is usually assumed.

It is allowed for "announcement, judgement, discussion, criticism, or
scientific debate."

Note that education is not in this list, as it is in the US and Italy. An
announcement is for example a news event when a photo exhibition would be
openend: the announcement may briefly show a remarkable photo from the
exhibit. So wikinews would benefit, but not wikipedia. Judgement/recension:
an author giving his judgment about the work of an other author. Criticism:
when a critic writes an essay on a painting, he is allowed to show a pohoto
of the painting. Scientific debate: when one scientists writes a treatise,
and another disagrees, it's ok to cite portions, else OR would be impossible
to criticize.
So your argument That "fair use" images can be used in a fork and "by
permission" can not, is invalid. Education is dealt separately, one may
publish it without consent, but is obligated to pay the author.

In all cases, the following requirements must be met:
* mention name of author
* mention source
* the cited work must already be legaly published
* citation may not be too long
* moral rights must be observed, no distortion of the citation
* the purpose must in relation to the size of the citation
* citation must be according to what is considered decent social behaviour

The use of images just as an illustration of a text is, according to the
site of the dutch photographers federation, explicitly not considered a
legal citation.

When I browse through the album covers on the english wiki, I guess 99% of
the album covers  is mere illustration, and not discussed in the text.

I wonder how the laws of Japan, Belgium, France and Germany are in this
respect. It is my guess that japans law might be based on US laws after
WWII.

My conclusion for the moment is and remains that fair use is basically a US
law. It is not a license. It is not free content except the US, Canada and
some (ex) UK countries. We should not look at "what is allowed under US
law?" We should not look at "can we push the borders of the US law?" We
should look at the questions: "How can we make existing content free? How
can we create new free content?"

I wish you health and happiness,
teun spaans

On 2/8/07, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/8/07, Claudio Mastroianni <gattonero at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 16:06, Gregory Maxwell ha scritto:
> >
> > > Under Italian law you are permitted 'abridgment, quotation or
> > > reproduction of fragments or parts of a work for the purpose of
> > > criticism or discussion, or for instructional purposes.'
> > > (see Italian Copyright Act Article 70; Nimmer and Geller (1998-),
> > > Italy, ?8[2][a])
> >
> > Oh nice: I'll upload a lot of "fragment" of IMAGES.
> > Now I know I can.
>
> So you think Wikipedia must reproduce whole unabridged and high
> resolution copies of copyrighted works which suitable for replacing
> the commercial value of these works, in order to educate people?
>
> If that is your view I really believe it is mistaken.
>
> When we reproduce a copyrighted work, we should be careful to avoid
> our copy replacing the work on the marketplace and thereby harming the
> commercial value of that work... Not only is this the polite thing to
> do, it is what is required of us by law and not just in Italy. This
> includes providing only crops or low resolution versions ('fragments')
> and only as much as we need to facilitate our discussion.
>
> The statement under Italian law is not all that different from the
> laws of other nations. Nor should it be, since all people everywhere
> have the same need to discuss and educate people about copyrighted
> works.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


list: wikimedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

subject:
[Foundation-l] Clearing up Wikimedia's media licensing policies
	(some important points)


list: foundation-l

subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!

body:
I will probably respond to the rest later, as your statement about NC and ND
raises som questions. As you have understood, I oppose the intended draft if
it allows fair use but disapproves other notions.

But for the moment I'd like to say that I agree 100% with your remark about
referring to the mention of museums ion the metadata.

As you may or may not know, my main pix are in the area of biology, and I
got permission of two academic botanical gardens and a nursery to photograph
their collections on the condition that I mention their location on upload.
A condition I gladly fullfill, as I am grateful for the chance they offer
me.

On 2/26/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> You read the draft incorrectly; NC and ND are on its own not permitted
> in an EDP. This has been explicitly confirmed by Kat Walsh. So be clear
> about it; only the argument "Fair use" allows something with a NC or ND
> license to be kept in our projects. This is not negotionable.
>
> I am not a fan of Fair use, I am not a fan of the overly restrictive
> ways that we are embarking on either. There is no way in which we can
> have a logo of a company without creating a legalistic mess where the
> license says that you can change it and the trademark says that you
> cannot is horrible to me. The fact that we do not acknowledge museums
> for looking after our cultural heritage by referring to them in the Meta
> data, the fact that we do not do this because it is Public Domain, is
> another missed opportunity to do the right thing.
>
> The notion that with this doctrine we have established how we have to
> deal with digital material once and for all is a notion that I do not
> subscribe to.
>
> You want to remind me on how this thread started; in the Dutch community
> we are working on getting much more pictures of those famous in the
> Netherlands by making it a project. This one picture of a former
> basketball player is imho an isolated incident. When people have the
> time and the inclination, this is something that can be done elsewhere
> as well. I want to remind you in turn that I responded to a remark made
> in this thread. This is what you do in threads.
>
> When you wonder how much effort was put in getting Free material.. we
> can use more people in the (Dutch) committee for free material ..
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
>
> teun spaans schreef:
> > Gerard,
> >
> > May I kindly remind you how this thread started.
> >
> > This thread started with a beautiful story of how the lack of a photo
> > prompted a professional photographer to donate photos. Personally I
> think
> > this would never happened if there had been an image under the fair use
> > provision. The lack of a picture makes people run, if there is a picture
> no
> > one gets out of his chair to say: He, there is a match tonight, I'm
> gonna
> > take some pix.
> >
> > I know many fair use advocates think the opposite. On this list I read
> "the
> > availability of a fair use image won't stop
> > someone from adding a free alternative" and "We should also recall that
> the
> > readers, would like to see an image until there "
> >
> > When we spoke with each other in the past you never supported the usage
> of
> > "fair use". Somehow your statements on this list, when I read them, even
> > where they seem to say the opposite, seem to suggest that you have
> changed
> > your point of view.
> > For example, when Muhammed suggests "the availability of a fair use
> image
> > won't stop someone from adding a free alternative", I think: he's right
> it
> > is not forbidden to add a free picture. But no longer any one will stand
> up
> > and say: it is a shame that we dont have a photo, There is a mact /
> concert
> > / interview tonight, I am going there and snap some pix! So effectually,
> > having a fair use image does hurt the collecting of free content. Then
> you
> > come and suggest that there is no need to cripple images for fair use
> (an
> > doubtful statement, see below). Even when you add "If anything we should
> not
> > have "Fair use" material.", your previous statement seems to support
> > Muhammeds plead for fair use.
> >
> > You suggest that it is not necessary to crop high quality images for
> fair
> > use. The assumption that cropping images improves legal chances for fair
> use
> > application is however very widespread. It also was one of the factors
> in
> > Kelly v. Arriba-Soft, 03 C.D.O.S. 5888 (9th Cir. 2003).
> >
> > The defenders of fair use should realize that we talk about a rather
> vast
> > amount of images.
> > Some numbers:
> > Template:albumcovers:     >55.000
> > Template:film-screenshot: >15.000
> > Template:Tv-screenshot:  > 30.000
> > Now these images will be hard to replace, but I really wonder how many
> > attempts have been made to make them free.
> > Others, such as those of famous people, and many of the 15.000 pics in
> > "template:fair use in" fall in this category, could potentially be
> replaced
> > by free pictures is someone simply steps out of his chair and starts
> taking
> > pictures.
> >
> > Gerad, I think you did not understand what I wrote about NC and ND. The
> > current draft as I read it, places little restrictions on exemptions.
> This
> > may lead to all kinds of unintended exemptions.
> >
> > I know that in your heart, Gerard, you support the creation of free
> content.
> >
> >
> > I wish you health and happiness,
> > teun spaans
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/24/07, GerardM < gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> >> Teun.
> >> May I kindly remind you that we are discussing on this list how to deal
> >> with
> >> all types of issues. Personally I have never ever uploaded "Fair use"
> >> material. It is however done on some of our projects. When material is
> >> used
> >> with a justification of being "Fair use", there is imho no reason to
> >> cripple
> >> such material. This was suggested in the previous post.
> >>
> >> You were wrong in how you reacted to what I wrote about NC and ND the
> >> other
> >> day, you again assume things that are not in line with what I wrote. It
> is
> >>
> >> good to remember that "Fair use" is permitted to a project under a
> >> Exemption
> >> Doctrine Policy if they so choose. It is therefore relevant to discuss
> how
> >> this is to be implemented if at all. This is what I did.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>      GerardM
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2/24/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gerard,
> >>>
> >>> may I kindly remind you that our aim is to make and collect free
> >>>
> >> content?
> >>
> >>> Fair use is not free.
> >>>
> >>> And your remark about crippling content looks false: i checked a few
> of
> >>> the
> >>> old versions, and these didnt have a photograph. Not even a fair use
> >>>
> >> one.
> >>
> >>> regards,
> >>> teun spaans
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 2/24/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hoi,
> >>>> When you have a good quality picture that you want to use under Fair
> >>>>
> >>> use,
> >>>
> >>>> you use it as a good quality picture. Why cripple our content when
> >>>>
> >> there
> >>
> >>>> is
> >>>> no need ? If anything we should not have "Fair use" material.
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>      GerardM
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2/24/07, Mohamed Magdy <mohamed.m.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>> Well, good work!..but as others said, this isn't the proper way to
> >>>>>
> >> get
> >>
> >>>>> rid of fair use images..the availability of a fair use image won't
> >>>>>
> >>> stop
> >>>
> >>>>> someone from adding a free alternative, fair use images shouldn't be
> >>>>> added in a high resolution..right? so when someone sees the image
> >>>>>
> >> with
> >>
> >>>>> low quality and s/he has another free one, s/he will replace it with
> >>>>>
> >>> the
> >>>
> >>>>> free image, provided that you place a message on free use images
> >>>>>
> >>> saying
> >>>
> >>>>> 'this image isn't free, if you can help.replace it...'...on the
> >>>>>
> >> other
> >>
> >>>>> end, I think with the increasing popularity, people will just add
> >>>>>
> >>> their
> >>>
> >>>>> images(to say: hey, i took that image you see on [[Cat]]
> >>>>>
> >> article!)...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!


from_name: effe iets anders

subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!

body:
I would like to point out the example of Paul Blank too. I do not actually
know whether he is a professional photographer, but he photographed a lot of
images of Dutch soccer players and other celebraties, such as royals,
politicians etc. Lots of these have an article on nl.wikipedia without a
photo, untill he released, because of wikipedia, his photo's under a free
licence, CC-BY. His photo's are very nice, and I doubt somehow we would have
gotten these photo's when we would have used Fair Use images instead of
nothing. He uplaoded first one photo himself, and after some talking, he
released the rest. And why would someone not hardcore wikipedian upload a
photo when there is already one? It is not very logical at first, even with
blinking templates etc, as many people will 1) not even see it, due to the
noisy layout of wikipedia, 2) they will just think " hey you already have an
image, why do you want mine?". Dont forget most visitors dont care about the
free license issue, they only care about wikipedia, about getting wikipedia
nice, and wont release stuff if they feel it is not absolutely needed.

Lodewijk

2007/2/26, teun spaans <teun.spaans op gmail.com>:
>
> I will probably respond to the rest later, as your statement about NC and
> ND
> raises som questions. As you have understood, I oppose the intended draft
> if
> it allows fair use but disapproves other notions.
>
> But for the moment I'd like to say that I agree 100% with your remark
> about
> referring to the mention of museums ion the metadata.
>
> As you may or may not know, my main pix are in the area of biology, and I
> got permission of two academic botanical gardens and a nursery to
> photograph
> their collections on the condition that I mention their location on
> upload.
> A condition I gladly fullfill, as I am grateful for the chance they offer
> me.
>
>
>
> On 2/26/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen op gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > You read the draft incorrectly; NC and ND are on its own not permitted
> > in an EDP. This has been explicitly confirmed by Kat Walsh. So be clear
> > about it; only the argument "Fair use" allows something with a NC or ND
> > license to be kept in our projects. This is not negotionable.
> >
> > I am not a fan of Fair use, I am not a fan of the overly restrictive
> > ways that we are embarking on either. There is no way in which we can
> > have a logo of a company without creating a legalistic mess where the
> > license says that you can change it and the trademark says that you
> > cannot is horrible to me. The fact that we do not acknowledge museums
> > for looking after our cultural heritage by referring to them in the Meta
> > data, the fact that we do not do this because it is Public Domain, is
> > another missed opportunity to do the right thing.
> >
> > The notion that with this doctrine we have established how we have to
> > deal with digital material once and for all is a notion that I do not
> > subscribe to.
> >
> > You want to remind me on how this thread started; in the Dutch community
> > we are working on getting much more pictures of those famous in the
> > Netherlands by making it a project. This one picture of a former
> > basketball player is imho an isolated incident. When people have the
> > time and the inclination, this is something that can be done elsewhere
> > as well. I want to remind you in turn that I responded to a remark made
> > in this thread. This is what you do in threads.
> >
> > When you wonder how much effort was put in getting Free material.. we
> > can use more people in the (Dutch) committee for free material ..
> >
> > Thanks,
> >     GerardM
> >
> >
> > teun spaans schreef:
> > > Gerard,
> > >
> > > May I kindly remind you how this thread started.
> > >
> > > This thread started with a beautiful story of how the lack of a photo
> > > prompted a professional photographer to donate photos. Personally I
> > think
> > > this would never happened if there had been an image under the fair
> use
> > > provision. The lack of a picture makes people run, if there is a
> picture
> > no
> > > one gets out of his chair to say: He, there is a match tonight, I'm
> > gonna
> > > take some pix.
> > >
> > > I know many fair use advocates think the opposite. On this list I read
> > "the
> > > availability of a fair use image won't stop
> > > someone from adding a free alternative" and "We should also recall
> that
> > the
> > > readers, would like to see an image until there "
> > >
> > > When we spoke with each other in the past you never supported the
> usage
> > of
> > > "fair use". Somehow your statements on this list, when I read them,
> even
> > > where they seem to say the opposite, seem to suggest that you have
> > changed
> > > your point of view.
> > > For example, when Muhammed suggests "the availability of a fair use
> > image
> > > won't stop someone from adding a free alternative", I think: he's
> right
> > it
> > > is not forbidden to add a free picture. But no longer any one will
> stand
> > up
> > > and say: it is a shame that we dont have a photo, There is a mact /
> > concert
> > > / interview tonight, I am going there and snap some pix! So
> effectually,
> > > having a fair use image does hurt the collecting of free content. Then
> > you
> > > come and suggest that there is no need to cripple images for fair use
> > (an
> > > doubtful statement, see below). Even when you add "If anything we
> should
> > not
> > > have "Fair use" material.", your previous statement seems to support
> > > Muhammeds plead for fair use.
> > >
> > > You suggest that it is not necessary to crop high quality images for
> > fair
> > > use. The assumption that cropping images improves legal chances for
> fair
> > use
> > > application is however very widespread. It also was one of the factors
> > in
> > > Kelly v. Arriba-Soft, 03 C.D.O.S. 5888 (9th Cir. 2003).
> > >
> > > The defenders of fair use should realize that we talk about a rather
> > vast
> > > amount of images.
> > > Some numbers:
> > > Template:albumcovers:     >55.000
> > > Template:film-screenshot: >15.000
> > > Template:Tv-screenshot:  > 30.000
> > > Now these images will be hard to replace, but I really wonder how many
> > > attempts have been made to make them free.
> > > Others, such as those of famous people, and many of the 15.000 pics in
> > > "template:fair use in" fall in this category, could potentially be
> > replaced
> > > by free pictures is someone simply steps out of his chair and starts
> > taking
> > > pictures.
> > >
> > > Gerad, I think you did not understand what I wrote about NC and ND.
> The
> > > current draft as I read it, places little restrictions on exemptions.
> > This
> > > may lead to all kinds of unintended exemptions.
> > >
> > > I know that in your heart, Gerard, you support the creation of free
> > content.
> > >
> > >
> > > I wish you health and happiness,
> > > teun spaans
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/24/07, GerardM < gerard.meijssen op gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Teun.
> > >> May I kindly remind you that we are discussing on this list how to
> deal
> > >> with
> > >> all types of issues. Personally I have never ever uploaded "Fair use"
> > >> material. It is however done on some of our projects. When material
> is
> > >> used
> > >> with a justification of being "Fair use", there is imho no reason to
> > >> cripple
> > >> such material. This was suggested in the previous post.
> > >>
> > >> You were wrong in how you reacted to what I wrote about NC and ND the
> > >> other
> > >> day, you again assume things that are not in line with what I wrote.
> It
> > is
> > >>
> > >> good to remember that "Fair use" is permitted to a project under a
> > >> Exemption
> > >> Doctrine Policy if they so choose. It is therefore relevant to
> discuss
> > how
> > >> this is to be implemented if at all. This is what I did.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>      GerardM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 2/24/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans op gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Gerard,
> > >>>
> > >>> may I kindly remind you that our aim is to make and collect free
> > >>>
> > >> content?
> > >>
> > >>> Fair use is not free.
> > >>>
> > >>> And your remark about crippling content looks false: i checked a few
> > of
> > >>> the
> > >>> old versions, and these didnt have a photograph. Not even a fair use
> > >>>
> > >> one.
> > >>
> > >>> regards,
> > >>> teun spaans
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 2/24/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen op gmail.com > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hoi,
> > >>>> When you have a good quality picture that you want to use under
> Fair
> > >>>>
> > >>> use,
> > >>>
> > >>>> you use it as a good quality picture. Why cripple our content when
> > >>>>
> > >> there
> > >>
> > >>>> is
> > >>>> no need ? If anything we should not have "Fair use" material.
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>      GerardM
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 2/24/07, Mohamed Magdy <mohamed.m.k op gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> <snip>
> > >>>>> Well, good work!..but as others said, this isn't the proper way to
> > >>>>>
> > >> get
> > >>
> > >>>>> rid of fair use images..the availability of a fair use image won't
> > >>>>>
> > >>> stop
> > >>>
> > >>>>> someone from adding a free alternative, fair use images shouldn't
> be
> > >>>>> added in a high resolution..right? so when someone sees the image
> > >>>>>
> > >> with
> > >>
> > >>>>> low quality and s/he has another free one, s/he will replace it
> with
> > >>>>>
> > >>> the
> > >>>
> > >>>>> free image, provided that you place a message on free use images
> > >>>>>
> > >>> saying
> > >>>
> > >>>>> 'this image isn't free, if you can help.replace it...'...on the
> > >>>>>
> > >> other
> > >>
> > >>>>> end, I think with the increasing popularity, people will just add
> > >>>>>
> > >>> their
> > >>>
> > >>>>> images(to say: hey, i took that image you see on [[Cat]]
> > >>>>>
> > >> article!)...
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l op lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l op lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!

body:
I would like to point out the example of Paul Blank too. I do not actually
know whether he is a professional photographer, but he photographed a lot of
images of Dutch soccer players and other celebraties, such as royals,
politicians etc. Lots of these have an article on nl.wikipedia without a
photo, untill he released, because of wikipedia, his photo's under a free
licence, CC-BY. His photo's are very nice, and I doubt somehow we would have
gotten these photo's when we would have used Fair Use images instead of
nothing. He uplaoded first one photo himself, and after some talking, he
released the rest. And why would someone not hardcore wikipedian upload a
photo when there is already one? It is not very logical at first, even with
blinking templates etc, as many people will 1) not even see it, due to the
noisy layout of wikipedia, 2) they will just think " hey you already have an
image, why do you want mine?". Dont forget most visitors dont care about the
free license issue, they only care about wikipedia, about getting wikipedia
nice, and wont release stuff if they feel it is not absolutely needed.

Lodewijk

2007/2/26, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com>:
>
> I will probably respond to the rest later, as your statement about NC and
> ND
> raises som questions. As you have understood, I oppose the intended draft
> if
> it allows fair use but disapproves other notions.
>
> But for the moment I'd like to say that I agree 100% with your remark
> about
> referring to the mention of museums ion the metadata.
>
> As you may or may not know, my main pix are in the area of biology, and I
> got permission of two academic botanical gardens and a nursery to
> photograph
> their collections on the condition that I mention their location on
> upload.
> A condition I gladly fullfill, as I am grateful for the chance they offer
> me.
>
>
>
> On 2/26/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > You read the draft incorrectly; NC and ND are on its own not permitted
> > in an EDP. This has been explicitly confirmed by Kat Walsh. So be clear
> > about it; only the argument "Fair use" allows something with a NC or ND
> > license to be kept in our projects. This is not negotionable.
> >
> > I am not a fan of Fair use, I am not a fan of the overly restrictive
> > ways that we are embarking on either. There is no way in which we can
> > have a logo of a company without creating a legalistic mess where the
> > license says that you can change it and the trademark says that you
> > cannot is horrible to me. The fact that we do not acknowledge museums
> > for looking after our cultural heritage by referring to them in the Meta
> > data, the fact that we do not do this because it is Public Domain, is
> > another missed opportunity to do the right thing.
> >
> > The notion that with this doctrine we have established how we have to
> > deal with digital material once and for all is a notion that I do not
> > subscribe to.
> >
> > You want to remind me on how this thread started; in the Dutch community
> > we are working on getting much more pictures of those famous in the
> > Netherlands by making it a project. This one picture of a former
> > basketball player is imho an isolated incident. When people have the
> > time and the inclination, this is something that can be done elsewhere
> > as well. I want to remind you in turn that I responded to a remark made
> > in this thread. This is what you do in threads.
> >
> > When you wonder how much effort was put in getting Free material.. we
> > can use more people in the (Dutch) committee for free material ..
> >
> > Thanks,
> >     GerardM
> >
> >
> > teun spaans schreef:
> > > Gerard,
> > >
> > > May I kindly remind you how this thread started.
> > >
> > > This thread started with a beautiful story of how the lack of a photo
> > > prompted a professional photographer to donate photos. Personally I
> > think
> > > this would never happened if there had been an image under the fair
> use
> > > provision. The lack of a picture makes people run, if there is a
> picture
> > no
> > > one gets out of his chair to say: He, there is a match tonight, I'm
> > gonna
> > > take some pix.
> > >
> > > I know many fair use advocates think the opposite. On this list I read
> > "the
> > > availability of a fair use image won't stop
> > > someone from adding a free alternative" and "We should also recall
> that
> > the
> > > readers, would like to see an image until there "
> > >
> > > When we spoke with each other in the past you never supported the
> usage
> > of
> > > "fair use". Somehow your statements on this list, when I read them,
> even
> > > where they seem to say the opposite, seem to suggest that you have
> > changed
> > > your point of view.
> > > For example, when Muhammed suggests "the availability of a fair use
> > image
> > > won't stop someone from adding a free alternative", I think: he's
> right
> > it
> > > is not forbidden to add a free picture. But no longer any one will
> stand
> > up
> > > and say: it is a shame that we dont have a photo, There is a mact /
> > concert
> > > / interview tonight, I am going there and snap some pix! So
> effectually,
> > > having a fair use image does hurt the collecting of free content. Then
> > you
> > > come and suggest that there is no need to cripple images for fair use
> > (an
> > > doubtful statement, see below). Even when you add "If anything we
> should
> > not
> > > have "Fair use" material.", your previous statement seems to support
> > > Muhammeds plead for fair use.
> > >
> > > You suggest that it is not necessary to crop high quality images for
> > fair
> > > use. The assumption that cropping images improves legal chances for
> fair
> > use
> > > application is however very widespread. It also was one of the factors
> > in
> > > Kelly v. Arriba-Soft, 03 C.D.O.S. 5888 (9th Cir. 2003).
> > >
> > > The defenders of fair use should realize that we talk about a rather
> > vast
> > > amount of images.
> > > Some numbers:
> > > Template:albumcovers:     >55.000
> > > Template:film-screenshot: >15.000
> > > Template:Tv-screenshot:  > 30.000
> > > Now these images will be hard to replace, but I really wonder how many
> > > attempts have been made to make them free.
> > > Others, such as those of famous people, and many of the 15.000 pics in
> > > "template:fair use in" fall in this category, could potentially be
> > replaced
> > > by free pictures is someone simply steps out of his chair and starts
> > taking
> > > pictures.
> > >
> > > Gerad, I think you did not understand what I wrote about NC and ND.
> The
> > > current draft as I read it, places little restrictions on exemptions.
> > This
> > > may lead to all kinds of unintended exemptions.
> > >
> > > I know that in your heart, Gerard, you support the creation of free
> > content.
> > >
> > >
> > > I wish you health and happiness,
> > > teun spaans
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/24/07, GerardM < gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Teun.
> > >> May I kindly remind you that we are discussing on this list how to
> deal
> > >> with
> > >> all types of issues. Personally I have never ever uploaded "Fair use"
> > >> material. It is however done on some of our projects. When material
> is
> > >> used
> > >> with a justification of being "Fair use", there is imho no reason to
> > >> cripple
> > >> such material. This was suggested in the previous post.
> > >>
> > >> You were wrong in how you reacted to what I wrote about NC and ND the
> > >> other
> > >> day, you again assume things that are not in line with what I wrote.
> It
> > is
> > >>
> > >> good to remember that "Fair use" is permitted to a project under a
> > >> Exemption
> > >> Doctrine Policy if they so choose. It is therefore relevant to
> discuss
> > how
> > >> this is to be implemented if at all. This is what I did.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>      GerardM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 2/24/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Gerard,
> > >>>
> > >>> may I kindly remind you that our aim is to make and collect free
> > >>>
> > >> content?
> > >>
> > >>> Fair use is not free.
> > >>>
> > >>> And your remark about crippling content looks false: i checked a few
> > of
> > >>> the
> > >>> old versions, and these didnt have a photograph. Not even a fair use
> > >>>
> > >> one.
> > >>
> > >>> regards,
> > >>> teun spaans
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 2/24/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hoi,
> > >>>> When you have a good quality picture that you want to use under
> Fair
> > >>>>
> > >>> use,
> > >>>
> > >>>> you use it as a good quality picture. Why cripple our content when
> > >>>>
> > >> there
> > >>
> > >>>> is
> > >>>> no need ? If anything we should not have "Fair use" material.
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>      GerardM
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 2/24/07, Mohamed Magdy <mohamed.m.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> <snip>
> > >>>>> Well, good work!..but as others said, this isn't the proper way to
> > >>>>>
> > >> get
> > >>
> > >>>>> rid of fair use images..the availability of a fair use image won't
> > >>>>>
> > >>> stop
> > >>>
> > >>>>> someone from adding a free alternative, fair use images shouldn't
> be
> > >>>>> added in a high resolution..right? so when someone sees the image
> > >>>>>
> > >> with
> > >>
> > >>>>> low quality and s/he has another free one, s/he will replace it
> with
> > >>>>>
> > >>> the
> > >>>
> > >>>>> free image, provided that you place a message on free use images
> > >>>>>
> > >>> saying
> > >>>
> > >>>>> 'this image isn't free, if you can help.replace it...'...on the
> > >>>>>
> > >> other
> > >>
> > >>>>> end, I think with the increasing popularity, people will just add
> > >>>>>
> > >>> their
> > >>>
> > >>>>> images(to say: hey, i took that image you see on [[Cat]]
> > >>>>>
> > >> article!)...
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


list: wikien-l

from_name: wikipedia2006 at dpbsmith.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] OT: Scott McCloud. BitPass?

body:
Off-topic, but perhaps some might be interested.

Scott McCloud, I knew that name rang a bell.

What was going through my mind was some debate he had with Clay Shirky. Shirky said micropayments were doomed to failure (the mental energy deciding whether to spend $0.00138 costs more than the $0.00138) or The Wave Of The Future (Shirky's talking about crufty OLD micropayment systems, not spiffy modr'n NEW micropayment systems).

My recollection was that he'd personally launched one such system himself with, IIRC, webcomic access for a tiny sum as the killer app. On a few Google clicks, I refreshed that recollection and find yes, it was called BitPass, it was started in 2003, the reasons why it will succeed are explained in "Misunderstanding Micropayments: BitPass, Shirky and The Good Idea that Refuses to Die,"

http://www.scottmccloud.com/home/essays/2003-09-micros/micros.html

and my idle question, "So whatever happened?" is described at everyone's favorite reference site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitPass

Apparently it just expired recently.


from_name: Brianna Laugher

subject: [Foundation-l] WikiSym 2007 Call for Papers

body:
On 26/02/07, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:

> October 21-23, 2007, Montreal, Canada
<snip>
Note that authors of accepted papers are expected to attend
> the conference and present the paper, otherwise publication will be canceled.

That seems like a good way to ensure it remains a strictly North
American affair...

cheers,
Brianna
user:pfctdayelise


from_name: Gerard Meijssen

subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!

body:
Hoi,
The draft in and of itself does not approve Fair use. What it does is to
allow a community to have an exemption for the strict rules if the law
of the US and the relevant countries allow for it. This is however very
much not something that is favoured; this is clear in the restrictions
that surround exempted material. My statement about NC and ND is really
simple. Material that is NC and ND will not be allowed. Fair use
material may be allowed. When material is allowed under the EDP as Fair
use, it may have a NC or a ND license; this is incidental and actually
not relevant.
Thanks,
    Gerard

PS Great to hear what you do with these collections .. I am glad to hear
about this :)

teun spaans schreef:
> I will probably respond to the rest later, as your statement about NC and ND
> raises som questions. As you have understood, I oppose the intended draft if
> it allows fair use but disapproves other notions.
>
> But for the moment I'd like to say that I agree 100% with your remark about
> referring to the mention of museums ion the metadata.
>
> As you may or may not know, my main pix are in the area of biology, and I
> got permission of two academic botanical gardens and a nursery to photograph
> their collections on the condition that I mention their location on upload.
> A condition I gladly fullfill, as I am grateful for the chance they offer
> me.
>
>
>
> On 2/26/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> You read the draft incorrectly; NC and ND are on its own not permitted
>> in an EDP. This has been explicitly confirmed by Kat Walsh. So be clear
>> about it; only the argument "Fair use" allows something with a NC or ND
>> license to be kept in our projects. This is not negotionable.
>>
>> I am not a fan of Fair use, I am not a fan of the overly restrictive
>> ways that we are embarking on either. There is no way in which we can
>> have a logo of a company without creating a legalistic mess where the
>> license says that you can change it and the trademark says that you
>> cannot is horrible to me. The fact that we do not acknowledge museums
>> for looking after our cultural heritage by referring to them in the Meta
>> data, the fact that we do not do this because it is Public Domain, is
>> another missed opportunity to do the right thing.
>>
>> The notion that with this doctrine we have established how we have to
>> deal with digital material once and for all is a notion that I do not
>> subscribe to.
>>
>> You want to remind me on how this thread started; in the Dutch community
>> we are working on getting much more pictures of those famous in the
>> Netherlands by making it a project. This one picture of a former
>> basketball player is imho an isolated incident. When people have the
>> time and the inclination, this is something that can be done elsewhere
>> as well. I want to remind you in turn that I responded to a remark made
>> in this thread. This is what you do in threads.
>>
>> When you wonder how much effort was put in getting Free material.. we
>> can use more people in the (Dutch) committee for free material ..
>>
>> Thanks,
>>     GerardM
>>
>>
>> teun spaans schreef:
>>
>>> Gerard,
>>>
>>> May I kindly remind you how this thread started.
>>>
>>> This thread started with a beautiful story of how the lack of a photo
>>> prompted a professional photographer to donate photos. Personally I
>>>
>> think
>>
>>> this would never happened if there had been an image under the fair use
>>> provision. The lack of a picture makes people run, if there is a picture
>>>
>> no
>>
>>> one gets out of his chair to say: He, there is a match tonight, I'm
>>>
>> gonna
>>
>>> take some pix.
>>>
>>> I know many fair use advocates think the opposite. On this list I read
>>>
>> "the
>>
>>> availability of a fair use image won't stop
>>> someone from adding a free alternative" and "We should also recall that
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> readers, would like to see an image until there "
>>>
>>> When we spoke with each other in the past you never supported the usage
>>>
>> of
>>
>>> "fair use". Somehow your statements on this list, when I read them, even
>>> where they seem to say the opposite, seem to suggest that you have
>>>
>> changed
>>
>>> your point of view.
>>> For example, when Muhammed suggests "the availability of a fair use
>>>
>> image
>>
>>> won't stop someone from adding a free alternative", I think: he's right
>>>
>> it
>>
>>> is not forbidden to add a free picture. But no longer any one will stand
>>>
>> up
>>
>>> and say: it is a shame that we dont have a photo, There is a mact /
>>>
>> concert
>>
>>> / interview tonight, I am going there and snap some pix! So effectually,
>>> having a fair use image does hurt the collecting of free content. Then
>>>
>> you
>>
>>> come and suggest that there is no need to cripple images for fair use
>>>
>> (an
>>
>>> doubtful statement, see below). Even when you add "If anything we should
>>>
>> not
>>
>>> have "Fair use" material.", your previous statement seems to support
>>> Muhammeds plead for fair use.
>>>
>>> You suggest that it is not necessary to crop high quality images for
>>>
>> fair
>>
>>> use. The assumption that cropping images improves legal chances for fair
>>>
>> use
>>
>>> application is however very widespread. It also was one of the factors
>>>
>> in
>>
>>> Kelly v. Arriba-Soft, 03 C.D.O.S. 5888 (9th Cir. 2003).
>>>
>>> The defenders of fair use should realize that we talk about a rather
>>>
>> vast
>>
>>> amount of images.
>>> Some numbers:
>>> Template:albumcovers:     >55.000
>>> Template:film-screenshot: >15.000
>>> Template:Tv-screenshot:  > 30.000
>>> Now these images will be hard to replace, but I really wonder how many
>>> attempts have been made to make them free.
>>> Others, such as those of famous people, and many of the 15.000 pics in
>>> "template:fair use in" fall in this category, could potentially be
>>>
>> replaced
>>
>>> by free pictures is someone simply steps out of his chair and starts
>>>
>> taking
>>
>>> pictures.
>>>
>>> Gerad, I think you did not understand what I wrote about NC and ND. The
>>> current draft as I read it, places little restrictions on exemptions.
>>>
>> This
>>
>>> may lead to all kinds of unintended exemptions.
>>>
>>> I know that in your heart, Gerard, you support the creation of free
>>>
>> content.
>>
>>> I wish you health and happiness,
>>> teun spaans
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/24/07, GerardM < gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Teun.
>>>> May I kindly remind you that we are discussing on this list how to deal
>>>> with
>>>> all types of issues. Personally I have never ever uploaded "Fair use"
>>>> material. It is however done on some of our projects. When material is
>>>> used
>>>> with a justification of being "Fair use", there is imho no reason to
>>>> cripple
>>>> such material. This was suggested in the previous post.
>>>>
>>>> You were wrong in how you reacted to what I wrote about NC and ND the
>>>> other
>>>> day, you again assume things that are not in line with what I wrote. It
>>>>
>> is
>>
>>>> good to remember that "Fair use" is permitted to a project under a
>>>> Exemption
>>>> Doctrine Policy if they so choose. It is therefore relevant to discuss
>>>>
>> how
>>
>>>> this is to be implemented if at all. This is what I did.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>      GerardM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/24/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gerard,
>>>>>
>>>>> may I kindly remind you that our aim is to make and collect free
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> content?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Fair use is not free.
>>>>>
>>>>> And your remark about crippling content looks false: i checked a few
>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> old versions, and these didnt have a photograph. Not even a fair use
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> teun spaans
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/24/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>> When you have a good quality picture that you want to use under Fair
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> use,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> you use it as a good quality picture. Why cripple our content when
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> there
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> no need ? If anything we should not have "Fair use" material.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>      GerardM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/24/07, Mohamed Magdy <mohamed.m.k at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>> Well, good work!..but as others said, this isn't the proper way to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> get
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> rid of fair use images..the availability of a fair use image won't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> stop
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> someone from adding a free alternative, fair use images shouldn't be
>>>>>>> added in a high resolution..right? so when someone sees the image
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> with
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> low quality and s/he has another free one, s/he will replace it with
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> free image, provided that you place a message on free use images
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> saying
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'this image isn't free, if you can help.replace it...'...on the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> other
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> end, I think with the increasing popularity, people will just add
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> their
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> images(to say: hey, i took that image you see on [[Cat]]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> article!)...
>>>>


subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!


list: wikitech-l

from_name: Jeff V. Merkey

subject: [Wikitech-l] rebuildImage.php MIME detection error 1.9.3

body:
Rob Church wrote:

>On 26/02/07, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Log excerpt attached. rebuildImage.php is detecting all png files as
>>"text/plain" and updating the wiki database
>>with this information. This causes the viewer to fail with "possible
>>malicious code" errors when the system tries
>>to render the png images.
>>
>>
>
>Can you try setting $wgMimeDetectorCommand = "file -bi" in
>LocalSettings.php? It sounds like MediaWiki is messing this up because
>PHP itself is messing it up, which implies there's no detection module
>available.
>
>
>Rob Church
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
I will try this. Will RebuildImages.php correct the wrong entries
already in the database or do I need to blow out the database and start
over?

Jeff


from_name: Ilmari Karonen

subject: [Wikitech-l] Bad UTF-8

body:
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>
> Simply striping the bad characters on the serialized output frightens
> me because I worry that eventually I'll strip an adjacent delimiter
> and make the output unparsable.

Due to the way UTF-8 is designed, it should in fact be safe to do this.
  For details, see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8>.

--
Ilmari Karonen


body:
Rob Church wrote:

>On 26/02/07, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Log excerpt attached. rebuildImage.php is detecting all png files as
>>"text/plain" and updating the wiki database
>>with this information. This causes the viewer to fail with "possible
>>malicious code" errors when the system tries
>>to render the png images.
>>
>>
>
>Can you try setting $wgMimeDetectorCommand = "file -bi" in
>LocalSettings.php? It sounds like MediaWiki is messing this up because
>PHP itself is messing it up, which implies there's no detection module
>available.
>
>
>

I set wgMimeDetectorCommand and the same output. Would you like an
account on the system in order to
debug this more directly? Given the level of trust the foundation has in
your efforts, I have no problem
providing you an account on WikiGadugi to get to the bottom of these
issues more directly.

Jeff

chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:23: Processing image...
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:23: Surprising mime type: text/html
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:23: Surprising mime type: text/html
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:23: Surprising mime type: text/html
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:23: Surprising mime type: application/ogg
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: text/html
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2007-02-26 23:52:24: 0.01% done on image; ETA 2007-02-27 00:32:59
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chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: text/html
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: application/pdf
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: application/pdf
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2007-02-26 23:52:24: 0.02% done on image; ETA 2007-02-27 00:14:37
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chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: application/ogg
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2007-02-26 23:52:24: 0.03% done on image; ETA 2007-02-27 00:15:11
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chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: application/pdf
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: text/html
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: text/html
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: text/html
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: application/ogg
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: text/html
chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: text/html
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2007-02-26 23:52:24: 0.04% done on image; ETA 2007-02-27 00:27:55
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chrdb 2007-02-26 23:52:24: Surprising mime type: application/ogg
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2007-02-26 23:52:24: 0.05% done on image; ETA 2007-02-27 00:24:07
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2007-02-26 23:52:24: 0.07% done on image; ETA 2007-02-27 00:15:20
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2007-02-26 23:52:24: 0.08% done on image; ETA 2007-02-27 00:12:33
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>Rob Church
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikitech-l mailing list
>Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>


list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Translating the Five pillars

body:
Berto 'd Sera wrote:

>>Wikipedia might in some way feature such original content
>>
>>
>Which ones, for example?
>
Answering that would be a strategic error.  We have too many people who
are willing to give a strict literal reading of such an answer, then
several months later come back wioth, "But you said here ...!"

Ec


from_name: Christof Sperl

subject: [WikiEN-l] Zero information is preferred to misleading or false

body:
To quote Boromir: "They have a cave*troll*"

Anyway my first thought of this was that it be a complete fabrication... "
ACCUS.US" sounds alot like "accuse us"... but the website really exists,
although a very minimalistic one.

So anyway, the title of his email suggests "Zero information is preferred to
misleading or false [information]" but his problem is that the Church of
ACCUS.US is *not listed* as a reference on [[Old Catholic Church]]? So
indeed they do *not* prefer zero information at all when it comes down to
them I presume?

Regards,
Aetherfukz

On 26/02/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <macgyvermagic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What is the relevance of the email subject and why are you talking about
> yourself in the third person?
>
> Mgm
>
>
> On 2/24/07, lawrence harms <harms621 at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mr. Wales,
> >
> > In the reference "Old Catholic Church"  there are listings of Old
> Catholic
> > Churches in the United States.  There is a Old Catholic Church called
> "The
> > American Catholic Church in the United States"  This Old Catholic Church
> is
> > not listed with the rest of the listings.  If you wish, you may want to
> view
> > there website ACCUS.US
> >
> > The ACCUS website will direct you to individuals in places of authority
> > within ACCUS.
> >
> > The Presiding Archbishop of ACCUS is Most Reverend Lawrence J. Harms, D.
> > D.  His e-mail address is presidingarchbishop at accus.us.
> >
> > Thank you for your consideration in reading this e-mail.
> >
> > The Clergy of ACCUS
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


from_name: geni

subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!

body:
On 2/26/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> There is no room to get NC and ND as an exemption.
>

Allow fair use if also NC would be allowed as far as I can tell.

--
geni


subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!


body:
On 26/02/07, Angela <beesley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Note that authors of accepted papers are expected to attend
> > > the conference and present the paper, otherwise publication will be canceled.
> >
> > That seems like a good way to ensure it remains a strictly North
> > American affair...
>
> The same rule applied last year when WikiSym was held in what was
> possibly the worst place for international travelers to get to (37
> hours for me) yet certainly wasn't a Danish-only, or even
> European-only, affair. I don't think it's unusual for conferences to
> require that people attend the conference if they want to have their
> paper published in the proceedings is it?

Probably not... good point.

This is the only kind of peer reviewed publication that centres on
wikis, is it not? (And the only other publication at all being
Wikimania, AFAIK...)

cheers,
Brianna


subject: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki 1.9.3 wgLogo renders improperly

body:
Please check and try to create an account on one of the two sites setup
with 1.9.3

http://chr.wikigadugi.org
http://en.wikigadugi.org

Even though $wgLogo is setup correctly, the images fail to render on the
default page with no user logged in.  When you switch to a login
panel or some other panel other than main display, the images then show
up properly.   They disappear completely when either logged out
or when sitting on a main page for editing.

Jeff


subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!

body:
Hi Gerard,

the draft says that communities may create excemption rules. Fair use may be
an excemption. According to Kats statement, ND and NC do not qualify as
such. This is a draft, and drafts may be discussed. Please try to understand
that some people disagree with this draft.

i wish you health and happiness,
teun spaans

On 2/26/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> The draft in and of itself does not approve Fair use. What it does is to
> allow a community to have an exemption for the strict rules if the law
> of the US and the relevant countries allow for it. This is however very
> much not something that is favoured; this is clear in the restrictions
> that surround exempted material. My statement about NC and ND is really
> simple. Material that is NC and ND will not be allowed. Fair use
> material may be allowed. When material is allowed under the EDP as Fair
> use, it may have a NC or a ND license; this is incidental and actually
> not relevant.
> Thanks,
>     Gerard
>
> PS Great to hear what you do with these collections .. I am glad to hear
> about this :)
>
> teun spaans schreef:
> > I will probably respond to the rest later, as your statement about NC
> and ND
> > raises som questions. As you have understood, I oppose the intended
> draft if
> > it allows fair use but disapproves other notions.
> >
> > But for the moment I'd like to say that I agree 100% with your remark
> about
> > referring to the mention of museums ion the metadata.
> >
> > As you may or may not know, my main pix are in the area of biology, and
> I
> > got permission of two academic botanical gardens and a nursery to
> photograph
> > their collections on the condition that I mention their location on
> upload.
> > A condition I gladly fullfill, as I am grateful for the chance they
> offer
> > me.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/26/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hoi,
> >> You read the draft incorrectly; NC and ND are on its own not permitted
> >> in an EDP. This has been explicitly confirmed by Kat Walsh. So be clear
> >> about it; only the argument "Fair use" allows something with a NC or ND
> >> license to be kept in our projects. This is not negotionable.
> >>
> >> I am not a fan of Fair use, I am not a fan of the overly restrictive
> >> ways that we are embarking on either. There is no way in which we can
> >> have a logo of a company without creating a legalistic mess where the
> >> license says that you can change it and the trademark says that you
> >> cannot is horrible to me. The fact that we do not acknowledge museums
> >> for looking after our cultural heritage by referring to them in the
> Meta
> >> data, the fact that we do not do this because it is Public Domain, is
> >> another missed opportunity to do the right thing.
> >>
> >> The notion that with this doctrine we have established how we have to
> >> deal with digital material once and for all is a notion that I do not
> >> subscribe to.
> >>
> >> You want to remind me on how this thread started; in the Dutch
> community
> >> we are working on getting much more pictures of those famous in the
> >> Netherlands by making it a project. This one picture of a former
> >> basketball player is imho an isolated incident. When people have the
> >> time and the inclination, this is something that can be done elsewhere
> >> as well. I want to remind you in turn that I responded to a remark made
> >> in this thread. This is what you do in threads.
> >>
> >> When you wonder how much effort was put in getting Free material.. we
> >> can use more people in the (Dutch) committee for free material ..
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>     GerardM
> >>
> >>
> >> teun spaans schreef:
> >>
> >>> Gerard,
> >>>
> >>> May I kindly remind you how this thread started.
> >>>
> >>> This thread started with a beautiful story of how the lack of a photo
> >>> prompted a professional photographer to donate photos. Personally I
> >>>
> >> think
> >>
> >>> this would never happened if there had been an image under the fair
> use
> >>> provision. The lack of a picture makes people run, if there is a
> picture
> >>>
> >> no
> >>
> >>> one gets out of his chair to say: He, there is a match tonight, I'm
> >>>
> >> gonna
> >>
> >>> take some pix.
> >>>
> >>> I know many fair use advocates think the opposite. On this list I read
> >>>
> >> "the
> >>
> >>> availability of a fair use image won't stop
> >>> someone from adding a free alternative" and "We should also recall
> that
> >>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>> readers, would like to see an image until there "
> >>>
> >>> When we spoke with each other in the past you never supported the
> usage
> >>>
> >> of
> >>
> >>> "fair use". Somehow your statements on this list, when I read them,
> even
> >>> where they seem to say the opposite, seem to suggest that you have
> >>>
> >> changed
> >>
> >>> your point of view.
> >>> For example, when Muhammed suggests "the availability of a fair use
> >>>
> >> image
> >>
> >>> won't stop someone from adding a free alternative", I think: he's
> right
> >>>
> >> it
> >>
> >>> is not forbidden to add a free picture. But no longer any one will
> stand
> >>>
> >> up
> >>
> >>> and say: it is a shame that we dont have a photo, There is a mact /
> >>>
> >> concert
> >>
> >>> / interview tonight, I am going there and snap some pix! So
> effectually,
> >>> having a fair use image does hurt the collecting of free content. Then
> >>>
> >> you
> >>
> >>> come and suggest that there is no need to cripple images for fair use
> >>>
> >> (an
> >>
> >>> doubtful statement, see below). Even when you add "If anything we
> should
> >>>
> >> not
> >>
> >>> have "Fair use" material.", your previous statement seems to support
> >>> Muhammeds plead for fair use.
> >>>
> >>> You suggest that it is not necessary to crop high quality images for
> >>>
> >> fair
> >>
> >>> use. The assumption that cropping images improves legal chances for
> fair
> >>>
> >> use
> >>
> >>> application is however very widespread. It also was one of the factors
> >>>
> >> in
> >>
> >>> Kelly v. Arriba-Soft, 03 C.D.O.S. 5888 (9th Cir. 2003).
> >>>
> >>> The defenders of fair use should realize that we talk about a rather
> >>>
> >> vast
> >>
> >>> amount of images.
> >>> Some numbers:
> >>> Template:albumcovers:     >55.000
> >>> Template:film-screenshot: >15.000
> >>> Template:Tv-screenshot:  > 30.000
> >>> Now these images will be hard to replace, but I really wonder how many
> >>> attempts have been made to make them free.
> >>> Others, such as those of famous people, and many of the 15.000 pics in
> >>> "template:fair use in" fall in this category, could potentially be
> >>>
> >> replaced
> >>
> >>> by free pictures is someone simply steps out of his chair and starts
> >>>
> >> taking
> >>
> >>> pictures.
> >>>
> >>> Gerad, I think you did not understand what I wrote about NC and ND.
> The
> >>> current draft as I read it, places little restrictions on exemptions.
> >>>
> >> This
> >>
> >>> may lead to all kinds of unintended exemptions.
> >>>
> >>> I know that in your heart, Gerard, you support the creation of free
> >>>
> >> content.
> >>
> >>> I wish you health and happiness,
> >>> teun spaans
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 2/24/07, GerardM < gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Teun.
> >>>> May I kindly remind you that we are discussing on this list how to
> deal
> >>>> with
> >>>> all types of issues. Personally I have never ever uploaded "Fair use"
> >>>> material. It is however done on some of our projects. When material
> is
> >>>> used
> >>>> with a justification of being "Fair use", there is imho no reason to
> >>>> cripple
> >>>> such material. This was suggested in the previous post.
> >>>>
> >>>> You were wrong in how you reacted to what I wrote about NC and ND the
> >>>> other
> >>>> day, you again assume things that are not in line with what I wrote.
> It
> >>>>
> >> is
> >>
> >>>> good to remember that "Fair use" is permitted to a project under a
> >>>> Exemption
> >>>> Doctrine Policy if they so choose. It is therefore relevant to
> discuss
> >>>>
> >> how
> >>
> >>>> this is to be implemented if at all. This is what I did.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>      GerardM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2/24/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Gerard,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> may I kindly remind you that our aim is to make and collect free
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> content?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Fair use is not free.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And your remark about crippling content looks false: i checked a few
> >>>>>
> >> of
> >>
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> old versions, and these didnt have a photograph. Not even a fair use
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> one.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> regards,
> >>>>> teun spaans
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 2/24/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hoi,
> >>>>>> When you have a good quality picture that you want to use under
> Fair
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> use,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> you use it as a good quality picture. Why cripple our content when
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> there
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> no need ? If anything we should not have "Fair use" material.
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>      GerardM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2/24/07, Mohamed Magdy <mohamed.m.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>>> Well, good work!..but as others said, this isn't the proper way to
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> get
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> rid of fair use images..the availability of a fair use image won't
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>> stop
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> someone from adding a free alternative, fair use images shouldn't
> be
> >>>>>>> added in a high resolution..right? so when someone sees the image
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> with
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> low quality and s/he has another free one, s/he will replace it
> with
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> free image, provided that you place a message on free use images
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>> saying
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> 'this image isn't free, if you can help.replace it...'...on the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> other
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> end, I think with the increasing popularity, people will just add
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>> their
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> images(to say: hey, i took that image you see on [[Cat]]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> article!)...
> >>>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


subject: [Foundation-l] a new free image!


from_name: Jeff Raymond

subject: [WikiEN-l] Scott McCloud on Wikipedia

body:
Matthew Brown wrote:
> On 2/26/07, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond at internationalhouseofbacon.com>
> wrote:
>> But I remain pessimistic.  Even now, after three weeks of consistent
>> abuses from many administrative forces, the only time Jimbo feels the
>> need
>> to step in is due to a wheel war.
>
> Have you considered that Jimbo may not want to have to do this - that
> he does not wish to micro-manage?

I'm sure that's the problem.  The point is that, somehow, an instance of
wheel-warring is his line.  I won't speak for him, and if he chooses to
speak for himself, he will, but that's very frustrating.

>
> I'm not sure what you mean by 'three weeks of consistent abuses',
> either.  I've been reading this mailing list and have not got that
> sense of things.

Not everything that goes on on-wiki gets spammed here, too.  Three weeks
was misleading by me, anyway - it's more of a spike in activity that's
been continuous for as long as I can remember.

-Jeff