subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> All the things you suggest are good and no problem for the
> government. I
> have absolutely no problem with writing about all those good
> things. But the
> focus of the government is going to be on things like that BBS that
> got shut
> down. Should there be no article? A syncopathic article explaining
> why it
> was necessary to shut it down from the government viewpoint? Or an
> article
> from a Neutral point of view?

No article at all.
It is truly insignificant, if you think about it.
When there are 350,000 articles in Chinese about Chinese history,
politics, culture and religions, then, a small blurb about efforts by
the central govt to curb radicalism that impacted a small number of
computer users (anything less than 10 million is small in china.)
would be called for.

Let's not focus on the twisted twig while standing in a large forest.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
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list: wikipedia-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
On Sep 23, 2004, at 1:42 AM, Yann Forget wrote:
> Le Thursday 23 September 2004 03:26, Brion Vibber a ?crit :
>> Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
>> think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
>> state. I can't support this as described.
>
> Is Wikipedia that bad? ;o)
> No I don't think so. There are obviously many stubs, incomplete
> articles and
> so on, but still I think that it is a valuable pice of work.
> Or so I was told. ;o)

Wikipedia is a very valuable resource, but it's a *dynamic* one. If
you're going to throw away the advantages of our process, you'd better
have something else to fall back on.

There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will
be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism. And in six
months when they go to press, the Wikipedia on the web will be much
improved -- but every mistake in their published copy will be preserved
indelibly and it's us, not Mandrake, who's going to get the bad press
over it.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: security warning!!!

body:
On Sep 23, 2004, at 4:30 AM, Andreas Hoerstemeier wrote:
> The same happened on the thai wikipedia as well as the english one, in
> both cases a text file named tmp.txt was uploaded which looks like it
> is
> supposed to send the cookie to wikilock.sourceforce.net. I deleted the
> file in both wikipedias, but I guess he will try in others as well.

We have Microsoft's Internet Explorer team to thank for that. Thanks,
guys! Apple's Safari team seems to be drinking the same kool-aid.

Sigh.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>
>
>--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>
>
>>All the things you suggest are good and no problem for the
>>government. I
>>have absolutely no problem with writing about all those good
>>things. But the
>>focus of the government is going to be on things like that BBS that
>>got shut
>>down. Should there be no article? A syncopathic article explaining
>>why it
>>was necessary to shut it down from the government viewpoint? Or an
>>article
>>from a Neutral point of view?
>>
>
>No article at all.
>It is truly insignificant, if you think about it.
>When there are 350,000 articles in Chinese about Chinese history,
>politics, culture and religions, then, a small blurb about efforts by
>the central govt to curb radicalism that impacted a small number of
>computer users (anything less than 10 million is small in china.)
>would be called for.
>
>Let's not focus on the twisted twig while standing in a large forest.
>
And ditto for the Tiananmen square articles, since only a couple thousand
people died, after all - hardly any at all, percentagewise!

While we're at it, I think there are a bunch of other governments
who would like us to remove certain articles. We could surpass
"neutral point of view" by being "completely neutered"...

Stan


list: foundation-l

from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital

body:
You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be
interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they
are getting into.

Fred

> From: Angela <beesley at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: Angela <beesley at gmail.com>, Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:46:41 +0100
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital
>
> BBC's "Go Digital" radio programme
> (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/1478157.stm), have contacted me
> about doing an interview for them. They would also like to speak to
> someone outside of Europe or the US. The interview will be focusing on
> the fact Wikipedia has just reached one million articles, and will
> have a global slant since the World Service program goes out
> worldwide. The interview could be by phone, or, preferably, in a
> studio if someone who lives near a BBC studio could be found. They are
> particularly looking for someone who is able to talk about the use of
> Wikipedia in their country, not only the editing of it.
>
> I don't know the exact date of when this will happen, but they are
> phoning me back to tomorrow hoping for a contact for the other part of
> the report.
>
> If anyone would be interested in being interviewed for this, please
> contact me as soon as possible.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


list: wikimedia-l

subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital


from_name: Christopher Mahan

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
--- Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:

> And ditto for the Tiananmen square articles, since only a couple
> thousand
> people died, after all - hardly any at all, percentagewise!

No, not ditto for the Tiananmen stuff. Yes it's horrible, but did you
know that a 1850 rebellion cause 50 million deaths in China? Where's
that article?

Look at the whole filtering of internet content in america's school
and libraries. It's been raging now for a while, with no end in
sight. But nobody gets killed. Let's keep things in perspective.

> While we're at it, I think there are a bunch of other governments
> who would like us to remove certain articles. We could surpass
> "neutral point of view" by being "completely neutered"...

Yes, the US government (bombmaking, etc) , the UK government (a very
recent letter on this very mailing list, or is it the other? about
the academy for gifted kids), the French government (Nazi stuff),
etc. These are the Enlightened countries, with a history seeped in
freedom of speech and protection from government interference.

If you want to take the fight for freedom, look no further than your
own local city hall, and let the Chinese deal with their 1.3 billion
people (perspective: That's more people than North America and Europa
combined). Doing anything else will invariably bring accusations of
NPOV.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
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from_name: Tim Starling

subject:
[Foundation-l] Ahhh crosspost!!! (was Re: Partnership with
	Mandrakesoft)

body:
Yann Forget wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>  Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux
>  distribution, is interested to distribute a DVD with an English and
>  French version of Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site
>  and included with the next distribution, due in next April.

That's all very interesting, but did you have to tell me about it FIVE
TIMES???

Please follow up to wikipedia-l.

-- Tim Starling


list: wikien-l

subject: [WikiEN-l] Ahhh crosspost!!! (was Re: Partnership with Mandrakesoft)


subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Ahhh crosspost!!! (was Re: Partnership with
	Mandrakesoft)


list: wikitech-l

subject:
[Wikitech-l] Ahhh crosspost!!! (was Re: Partnership with
	Mandrakesoft)


from_name: Domas Mituzas

subject: [Wikitech-l] memcached -> notmemcached

body:
G'day everyone,

I've done several hour work and stripped lots of code from memcached and replaced it with BerkeleyDB library hooks.
The package can be located at http://dammit.lt/dbcached.tgz, though guys on #mediawiki already told it is 'notmemcached', though it has no ./configure and Makefile has to be tweaked yet by hand, as it is opensource, someone might fix that ;-) Anyway, it implements set/get methods with memcached interface, but has persistant on-disk store, cache management and may have transactions and stuff (just additional two or three lines of code at the initialisation). That would have ACID store at the cost of memcached. That would also allow analysis of internal cached data structures, out-of-software data maintainance (as it's store can be accessed by berkeleydb library), and other stuff.

Therefore, we've got near-line-memory store, or near-line-disk store, something in between.

I've done simple benchmarks, providing that in cached operations speed is equivalent or outperforming. I didn't check with large arrays of data yet, but that's already specific to applications.

I'm offering deployment of this stuff on wikimedia servers with possible other future uses (like distributed search store, I discussed with some p2p gurus on freenode, session caches, 100%-effective parser cache, some other object store...)

If project is interested, I'd like to put a module on wikipedia or some other cvs and clean/debug/test/improve code.

Cheers,
Domas

P.S. Some benchmarks:

Processes in action:

  PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
21989 midom     15   0 90128  18m 2224 S  6.0  0.8   0:03.82 dbcached

  PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
23296 midom     15   0 16720  14m 1320 R  5.9  0.6   0:02.11 memcached

READ ACCESS:

METHOD:
while i<10000:
        i+=1
        key=i
 # All keys exist and get a half-kilobyte data
        mc.get(key)

$ time python memtest.py
real    0m9.091s
user    0m0.692s
sys     0m1.799s

$ time python dbtest.py

real    0m9.043s
user    0m0.796s
sys     0m1.776s

WRITE ACCESS:

while i<10000:
        i+=1
        key=i
        mc.set(key,data)

$ time python dbtest.py

real    0m7.969s
user    0m0.713s
sys     0m0.962s

$ time python memtest.py

real    0m7.723s
user    0m0.735s
sys     0m0.844s


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
All the things you suggest are good and no problem for the government. I
have absolutely no problem with writing about all those good things. But the
focus of the government is going to be on things like that BBS that got shut
down. Should there be no article? A syncopathic article explaining why it
was necessary to shut it down from the government viewpoint? Or an article
from a Neutral point of view?

Fred

> From: Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:10:45 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China
>
>> ...Wikipedia is a threat to closed
>> information, particularly that kind of closed information that
>> governments often dislike: information that undercuts assertions
>> that
>> everything is on track.
>
> Yes, if every other article is about failure of this and breakdown of
> that, with Falung and Commies and Free Tibet all over the place, I
> would shut it down too.
>
> I want to see articles about increased privatisation, efforts the
> government makes in building health, telecom, and transportation
> infrastructure. I want to see articles about economic growth in
> Shanghai, about schools in remote locations, about the growing
> chinese auto assembly and manufacturing capabilities.
>
> These things are happening in China. Not including them in and of
> itself is admitting western-bias, which, you are right, the Chinese
> authorities don't look kindly upon.
>
> =====
> Chris Mahan
> 818.943.1850 cell
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> chris.mahan at gmail.com
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Peter Gervai

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona and node

body:
On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 12:08:14AM -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
> > If you're objecting to articles, yes. What you do is replace the
> > copyrighted text with a copyvio notice.
>
> Yes. I suspected that the text of each and every single one of the
> articles I replaced was copyvio (with the exception of a couple I did
> by mistake which had no content at all).
[...]

node, do you require each and every wikipedian (outside yourself) to tell you
that your interpretation is different from all of the other people's and
most of us think you did something very wrong and rude, you should
apologise and you should stop trying to convince others that you're right,
they're all wrong and keep on debating? The more you debate the more I feel
like banning wouldn't be that bad idea. You ruin the remains of your good
reputation (let us suppose there's still some).

I believe TokiPona wikipedia was not a bright idea (and this was phrased
euphemistically), I believe we have two zillion conlangs are "better" than
tokipona, I believe that tokipona being copyrighted and not *generally*
released under a free licence is a very good reason to purge its wikipedia
**IMMEDIATELY**. (Unless Sonja changes the licence very very very fast.)

It is not you, however, to decide that, and to go and purge it on your
behalf. It is not any of us. This is a community project. You may feel that
it's wrong to have tokipona (klingon, whatever), and object it POLITELY the
several ways we use (and others kindly already listed). It's not that hard
to gain attention without killing anyone.

You neglected that, you went on and started killing it. You got your
feedback: this is unacceptable. Please don't go on arguing why do you think
it is, you may already have noticed that "we" don't intend to see it like
you do.

People already accepted the possibility that you're an intelligent person,
realised that you did it wrong, learned from it, next time you will do it
right and let it rest and move on. Honour them (being unhostile) by
accepting that and end this damn thread, stop the noise in the list and move
on.

(And ignore those not very wise people further accusing you, or repeating
things already said and answered. They're noise, too. I believe right now I
am noise, too, as these things were probably already said. I shut up. I
offer this possibility to the other members of this thread, too.)

Thank you.
Peter
Wikipedian

ps: I am not against "get change tokipona license or get rid of it" thread,
I am against "node did this and that so we should do this and that" thread.
That's already walking in circles. If he moves on, let's move on. If he
debates further, ban him and move on. *sigh*


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Maybe, but there may be an article, [[censorship]]. What goes in that?

Fred

> From: Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China
>
>
>
>
> --- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>
>> All the things you suggest are good and no problem for the
>> government. I
>> have absolutely no problem with writing about all those good
>> things. But the
>> focus of the government is going to be on things like that BBS that
>> got shut
>> down. Should there be no article? A syncopathic article explaining
>> why it
>> was necessary to shut it down from the government viewpoint? Or an
>> article
>> from a Neutral point of view?
>
> No article at all.
> It is truly insignificant, if you think about it.
> When there are 350,000 articles in Chinese about Chinese history,
> politics, culture and religions, then, a small blurb about efforts by
> the central govt to curb radicalism that impacted a small number of
> computer users (anything less than 10 million is small in china.)
> would be called for.
>
> Let's not focus on the twisted twig while standing in a large forest.
>
>
>
>
> =====
> Chris Mahan
> 818.943.1850 cell
> chris_mahan at yahoo.com
> chris.mahan at gmail.com
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Stan is being sarcastic, but how would that article be handled?

Fred

> From: Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:59:22 -0700
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China
>
> Christopher Mahan wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> --- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> All the things you suggest are good and no problem for the
>>> government. I
>>> have absolutely no problem with writing about all those good
>>> things. But the
>>> focus of the government is going to be on things like that BBS that
>>> got shut
>>> down. Should there be no article? A syncopathic article explaining
>>> why it
>>> was necessary to shut it down from the government viewpoint? Or an
>>> article
>>> from a Neutral point of view?
>>>
>>
>> No article at all.
>> It is truly insignificant, if you think about it.
>> When there are 350,000 articles in Chinese about Chinese history,
>> politics, culture and religions, then, a small blurb about efforts by
>> the central govt to curb radicalism that impacted a small number of
>> computer users (anything less than 10 million is small in china.)
>> would be called for.
>>
>> Let's not focus on the twisted twig while standing in a large forest.
>>
> And ditto for the Tiananmen square articles, since only a couple thousand
> people died, after all - hardly any at all, percentagewise!
>
> While we're at it, I think there are a bunch of other governments
> who would like us to remove certain articles. We could surpass
> "neutral point of view" by being "completely neutered"...
>
> Stan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


from_name: Angela

subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

body:
Mandrakesoft are aware of our editing processes. They know what they
are getting, and that the content has not been verified. They have
agreed to take legal responsibility for this. Basically, the only
changes we are making is to remove images tagged as fair use, unknown,
unverified and other unsuitable ones. Since the image tagging efforts
on the English Wikipedia are going fairly slowly, there may be a large
number of untagged images would also need to be removed.

The arguments over whether a Wikipedia DVD is going to be useful to
people aren't really for us to decide. Mandrake obviously think people
are interested in this, and if they turn out not to be because they
can read it online, then we haven't lost anything. The chances are
though that this will significantly increase the exposure of Wikipedia
to a wider audience. Hopefully many of them will access it online, and
even become editors themselves, but I don't think that detracts from
the appeal of having a DVD published.

This DVD production is in no way meant to deter people from the
validation processes that are being proposed. Obviously these will be
hugely beneficial for future distributions. However, it's also going
to take a very long time before the product of such processes is
ready, so distributing a non-validated version in advance of that is
beneficial.

No one is claiming this distribution is perfect, but as a snapshot of
Wikipedia I feel it is valuable. It's great advertising for us, it's
great as an early trial of distributing our content offline, and it's
great for raising awareness of the need to tag images properly.

I strongly encourage others to help with the tagging drive as there
are still many untagged images that can not be distributed at this
stage. I'd also like to thank the following people for taking in part
in the recent drive to tag images. This is based on the recent changes
to the lists of untagged images, and the list of participants at
[[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]], so I apologize in advance for
anyone I've missed out: Yann, Jdforrester, Eugene van der Pijll, Tom-,
Diberri, Rich Farmbrough, Gamaliel, Stan Shebs, Lupin, Sj, Blankfaze,
Chmod007, GeneralPatton, Frecklefoot, Sunborn, Morven, ?var Arnfj?r?
Bjarmason, Trilobite, Poccil, Morwen, Secretlondon, Anthony DiPierro,
Imran, Maximus Rex, Flockmeal, Guanaco, and Frazzydee. Thanks also to
Looxix for creating the lists of untagged images and everyone who has
been doing the same task on the French Wikipedia.

Please help with the tagging at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images and see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft for further
information.

Angela.


subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft


from_name: Matt Brown

subject: [WikiEN-l] "Editorial purposes only" images

body:
Some sources of photographs are available under "editorial purposes
only" licenses, often with an explicit "Not for use in advertising."
An example is photographs from the United Nations.

We have decided that "noncommercial-only" images are not acceptable,
but I don't see anywhere that a decision has been made about this
category.  Editorial-only images are usable by commercial users as
well as noncommercial in an encyclopedia context, so their use would
not prohibit commercial redistribution of Wikipedia.  On the other
hand, it's a less free license than many we use.

Is there a pre-existing decision here, or somewhere it should be hashed out?

This has come up on [[Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images]].

-Matt (User:Morven)


subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload limitations

body:
We're tightening up security on the uploads due to exploitable Internet
Explorer and Safari bugs that allow for scripting attacks to steal
session and saved password cookies.

For the moment uploads are limited to the default extension whitelist:
'png', 'gif', 'jpg', 'jpeg', 'ogg'. Other types of files can't be
uploaded to the wikis until we expand it again, but files already
uploaded remain accessible.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Andreas Hoerstemeier

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: security warning!!!

body:
yuanml wrote:
> The guy called [[User:Yaohua2000]] today upload a text file,
> in which contains passwords of some users, to threaten us.
> we deleted the file immediately.
> but the situation seems very dangerous for us now,
> one can steal the password of our users.
The same happened on the thai wikipedia as well as the english one, in
both cases a text file named tmp.txt was uploaded which looks like it is
supposed to send the cookie to wikilock.sourceforce.net. I deleted the
file in both wikipedias, but I guess he will try in others as well.

[[User:Ahoerstemeier]]


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>I would shut it down too.
>
>
So you personally oppose freedom of speech, and if you were in a
position that you could prohibit people from engaging in speech you
disagreed with, you would do so?  Sounds very fascist to me.

-Mark


from_name: Mark Williamson

subject:
[Wikipedia-l] Fwd: Wikipedia, l'enciclopedia gratuita, libera,
	i multilingue, in lingua siciliana

body:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Redaziuni <info at linguasiciliana.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:40:36 +0200
Subject: Re: Wikipedia, l'enciclopedia gratuita, libera, i
multilingue, in lingua siciliana
To: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>

Dear Mark,
thank you for your email and apologise for the late answer.
I can confirm you the support for the creation of the Sicilian wikipedia.
LinguaSiciliana web site is made up by a LinguaSiciliana Forum that has got
at the moment more than 350 members.
I will post your message into our Forum and I and the others members wil be
happy to help and contribute into the creation of the Wikipedia in Sicilian
language.
The project is maching with the main LinguaSiciliana organizasion's
objective.

Please do not hesitate to contact me for any further information.

Best regards

Nino Atria
LinguaSiciliana.org Forum

Mark Williamson writes:

> Ciao a tutti.
>
> I apologise in advance for not knowing very much Sicilian or Italian.
>
> Perhaps you have heard before of Wikipedia? http://it.wikipedia.org/
> <- the Italian wikipedia
>
> Right now, on the Wikipedia mailinglist, it is being discussed whether
> maybe we should create a Sicilian wikipedia. So far there are no
> Sicilians in the discussion, and people think there should be at least
> a couple of Sicilian speakers willing to make at least a small
> commitment to helping build a free online encyclopedia in Sicilian.
>
> So I ask you these two questions:
>
> 1. Do you support the creation of a Sicilian-language Wikipedia?
>
> 2. If a Sicilian-language Wikipedia is created, do you think you might
> contribute to it?
>
> best,
> Mark Williamson


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona and node

body:
Peter, honestly what am I supposed to do when there are messages on
the ml that are against me, often ignoring important things (ie, that
I already apologised)?

I am willing to drop this here and now but honestly it doesn't seem
like everybody else is, though I appreciate those who are.

--node

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:48:34 +0200, Peter Gervai <grin at tolna.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 12:08:14AM -0700, Mark Williamson wrote:
> > > If you're objecting to articles, yes. What you do is replace the
> > > copyrighted text with a copyvio notice.
> >
> > Yes. I suspected that the text of each and every single one of the
> > articles I replaced was copyvio (with the exception of a couple I did
> > by mistake which had no content at all).
> [...]
>
> node, do you require each and every wikipedian (outside yourself) to tell you
> that your interpretation is different from all of the other people's and
> most of us think you did something very wrong and rude, you should
> apologise and you should stop trying to convince others that you're right,
> they're all wrong and keep on debating? The more you debate the more I feel
> like banning wouldn't be that bad idea. You ruin the remains of your good
> reputation (let us suppose there's still some).
>
> I believe TokiPona wikipedia was not a bright idea (and this was phrased
> euphemistically), I believe we have two zillion conlangs are "better" than
> tokipona, I believe that tokipona being copyrighted and not *generally*
> released under a free licence is a very good reason to purge its wikipedia
> **IMMEDIATELY**. (Unless Sonja changes the licence very very very fast.)
>
> It is not you, however, to decide that, and to go and purge it on your
> behalf. It is not any of us. This is a community project. You may feel that
> it's wrong to have tokipona (klingon, whatever), and object it POLITELY the
> several ways we use (and others kindly already listed). It's not that hard
> to gain attention without killing anyone.
>
> You neglected that, you went on and started killing it. You got your
> feedback: this is unacceptable. Please don't go on arguing why do you think
> it is, you may already have noticed that "we" don't intend to see it like
> you do.
>
> People already accepted the possibility that you're an intelligent person,
> realised that you did it wrong, learned from it, next time you will do it
> right and let it rest and move on. Honour them (being unhostile) by
> accepting that and end this damn thread, stop the noise in the list and move
> on.
>
> (And ignore those not very wise people further accusing you, or repeating
> things already said and answered. They're noise, too. I believe right now I
> am noise, too, as these things were probably already said. I shut up. I
> offer this possibility to the other members of this thread, too.)
>
> Thank you.
> Peter
> Wikipedian
>
> ps: I am not against "get change tokipona license or get rid of it" thread,
> I am against "node did this and that so we should do this and that" thread.
> That's already walking in circles. If he moves on, let's move on. If he
> debates further, ban him and move on. *sigh*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
I already apologised, both to the entire list and to a couple
people/groups of people personally.

Your sentiment about wanting the matter to be dropped is shared by me
but is apparently not universal.

--node

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:04:44 -0400, Brian Corr <bcorr at neaction.org> wrote:
> Dear Mark,
>
> Since you've continued to reply to the whole list, I want to offer you one
> final, simple piece of advice here:
>
> Acknowledge that you made a mistake, apologize, say you won't do it again,
> and don't explain further why you felt it was justified.
>
> I think that all of us would be happy to see this matter drop and all move
> forward in a positive manner, and your taking those actions will most
> certainly achieve that.
>
> Sincerely,
> Brian (Bcorr)
>
> At 07:30 AM 9/23/2004 +0000, you wrote:
> >While I do appreciate advice, I find it extremely annoying that
> >everybody seems to think I need heaps and heaps of it. Frankly I am
> >getting more than a little irritated over that.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Toki Pona

body:
1. It was in good faith. I spent almost 2 hours making good faith
contributions which I am now being criticised for. Of course they were
bad and caused a lot of trouble and I would not do it again, but I
didn't know that at the time.

2. Shunning/banning is an administrative action (I was already banned
for a bit), giving advice is not. I believe I have noted before that I
will accept any administrative action that may result from this
gracefully, ie when I found out Raul had banned me I didn't run around
screaming and crying like some people have demanding to be unbanned.

--node

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 03:18:55 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
<jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > While I do appreciate advice, I find it extremely annoying that
> > everybody seems to think I need heaps and heaps of it. Frankly I am
> > getting more than a little irritated over that.
>
> You apparently spent from 02:48 to 04:32, nearly 2 hours, vandalizing
> the tokipona wikipedia, thus requiring Angela to waste time reverting
> your changes.  You may find it annoying to have that sort of behavior
> result in people giving you advice, but you're lucky it doesn't get
> you shunned or banned from the project.
>
> --Jimbo
>


from_name: Phil Sandifer

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
I am certain that Node has conversed with Sonjaa in IRC, and that at
least one of these conversations happened prior to this. I don't think
this proves malicious intent - I just think it shows yet another
sensible avenue for concern that node could have taken instead of being
aggressive.

-Snowspinner

On Sep 23, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Jens Ropers wrote:

>
> On 23 Sep 2004, at 04:07, Phil Sandifer wrote:
>
>> since I know you've had a conversation with Sonja on IRC,
>
> What? WHAT !?!?!?
>
> Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN [[en:User:Node ue]] did have an IRC
> conversation with [[en:User:Sonjaaa]] some time BEFORE he went on his
> content removal spree??
>
> If that's true then to me that's an absolute bombshell, because--say
> what you might--I (for one) would certainly see that as sufficient
> proof of malicious intent.
> And malicious intent is a whole lotta worse than daftness.
>
> -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
>     www.ropersonline.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
I don't really see it that way - I asked Sonja about copyright and she
made it clear she was not wanting to discuss Toki Pona. It was a
couple of days later that this happened, and the Toki Pona website
which is always willing to talk about Toki Pona says "(c) Toki Pona
..." blah blah blah blah blah.

--node

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:21:44 -0500, Phil Sandifer
<sandifer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I am certain that Node has conversed with Sonjaa in IRC, and that at
> least one of these conversations happened prior to this. I don't think
> this proves malicious intent - I just think it shows yet another
> sensible avenue for concern that node could have taken instead of being
> aggressive.
>
> -Snowspinner
>
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Jens Ropers wrote:
>
> >
> > On 23 Sep 2004, at 04:07, Phil Sandifer wrote:
> >
> >> since I know you've had a conversation with Sonja on IRC,
> >
> > What? WHAT !?!?!?
> >
> > Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN [[en:User:Node ue]] did have an IRC
> > conversation with [[en:User:Sonjaaa]] some time BEFORE he went on his
> > content removal spree??
> >
> > If that's true then to me that's an absolute bombshell, because--say
> > what you might--I (for one) would certainly see that as sufficient
> > proof of malicious intent.
> > And malicious intent is a whole lotta worse than daftness.
> >
> > -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
> >     www.ropersonline.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


subject: [Wikitech-l] security warning!!!

body:
That user discovered the bug and reported it in #mediawiki. The best solution would be serve downloads from a separate domain, so project cookies would not affect.

Domas


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> Stan is being sarcastic, but how would that article be handled?

Like I said, no article.

We're building an encyclopedia, not an activist website.

You have to realize that there are reasons the chinese government
suppresses news. Just as there are in every country.

In the US, for example, the press is not supposed to show grossly
mutilated bodies. Also, they are not allowed to release the names of
underage rape victims. Why is that? Because it endangers and upsets
people.

Just because we're npov does not mean that we can't work within the
legal frameworks of various countries.

I would say that if there was an article which talked about computing
in china, and the article was well-written, balanced, showing on the
one hand how computer enthusiasts have "pushed the envelope" and how
the government "reins them in", I might see a blurb about the subject
at hand.

Let's not forget that the US has draconian laws regarding online
behavior and that many people around the world can't understand why
we put up with them. It's our way, it's not perfect, but it works ok.
Likewise the chinese way.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com


list: textbook-l

from_name: John Dehlin

subject:
[Textbook-l] Re: [Instgrad] Utah OpenTexbooks Project (Project
	Dyson)

body:
Alfred,

This is great feedback, and I very much look forward to chatting w/ you
about this.  Sincerely.  I will be in contact w/ you soon.

TO EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS THREAD?I?M VERY SORRY FOR THE SPAM....AND IF ANY OF
YOU WANT TO CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION, PLEASE REPLY TO ME DIRECTLY TO AVOID
MORE SPAM TO OTHERS ON THE LIST.

Thanks and sorry.

John

On 9/23/04 8:30 AM, "Alfred Jole" <ajole at dcsd.org> wrote:

> As a high school teacher, I have a few things to say on the subject of
> textbooks.
> Oh, and please note, I am not in favor or against the project, I just wanted
> to get in the discussion and get some real classroom input out there.  I think
> it would be a really good thing to think about, or to wrap a dissertation
> around.  Good luck!
>
>  ?does a brand new U.S. History or Algebra 1 textbook need to be repurchased
> every few years (at full cost) for whatever few changes may be made??
> We don?t replace texts because of new editions, we replace them because they
> get worn out.  Amazing what a teenager can do to a backpack full of books.
>
> ?could digital learning objects be built around the text/course and provided
> as supplements to the textbook?
> Yes, but we couldn?t get those out to the kids without a LOT more investment
> in technology.  I?d guess it would cost more per year to ensure every teacher
> had the projectors and computers and smart boards necessary; as well as to
> ensure that every kid had access to their own work station, than it costs to
> give ?em books. Just an educated guess though, good question for some research
> there.  Maybe a PDA version of a textbook; they are very much in line with
> textbook costs right now, and would be easier to carry (and lose, but what are
> ya gonna do?). Also in that discussion we need to look at all the training and
> tech support costs that often seem to get overlooked.
>
>
> ?Could better, more innovate textbooks be developed in a community/open/wiki
> style?
> Maybe, but what do you do with the community that is too small, or simply
> doesn?t have the resources to handle it?  Admittedly they could share in what
> is out there, but how is that different from what we have now?
> Also, since our core classes are so terribly test-driven now, (thanks to NCLB
> and UBSCT),  we need to teach what is on the standardized tests, and that is
> already in the textbooks we choose; probably because the best tests seem to
> come from the same places as the texts.  In fact, when Utah tried to write the
> UBSCT, we had a terrible time with it; which opens up a whole new discussion:
> What about competency?  How do you measure it if everyone gets to set their
> own content?.
>
> Perhaps the answer is in there somewhere, but it would take a change in the
> entire fabric of how we do school in America. Which could be a good thing?.
> There are more ideas running around in my head, but I have to go teach Algebra
> now.
> Thanks, and let the rumble begin!
>
>
> Al Jole
>
>
> From: instgrad-bounces at it.usu.edu [mailto:instgrad-bounces at it.usu.edu] On
> Behalf Of John Dehlin
> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 1:43 PM
> To: David Dehlin; Juli Faust; Nan McCulloch; John & Gina Faust; Joel Dehlin;
> Ronald Fuller; Frank Fox; Frank Gorgenyi; Cindy Ingersoll; Ted Lyon; Lynn
> England; William Bradshaw; Clayton White; Eric Ringger; Paul Mayfield; Pete
> Gehrett; Bryn and Marita Lane; Steven Kent; Polly Taylor; Benson Parkinson;
> Dilworth & LB Parkinson; Jim & Sue Parkinson; Mark Parkinson; Ricky & Mavis
> Parkinson; Sam Parkinson; ldstt at yahoogroups.com; John Anderson; Stephen
> Wesson; Paul LeFrere; Geoff Thatcher; Eric Jarvi; Dave Willman; Jessica
> Friesen; Harvey Hughes; Mark Adams; Mark & Teri; Mark Nelson; Mark Berndt;
> Karl Quilter; Spencer Scott; Catherine Scott; Jonathan Weber; Shawn Jones;
> Maury Giles; Margi Dehlin; David Benson; David Taylor; Russ Watterson; Nick
> Eastmond; brett.shelton at usu.edu; yanghee; Byron Burnham; Gwen Baird; Mimi
> Recker; Joanne Bentley; Instagrad; John Dehlin; stephen at downes.ca;
> ldsmbrs at microsoft.com; ldsshado at microsoft.com; curtc at microsoft.com; Matt
> Brinton; Dan Peay; cslemp at microsoft.com; judih at microsoft.com; Lary Cullimore;
> chrisb at microsoft.com; Mary Bradford; Maury Giles; tomjones at microsoft.com;
> chasf at microsoft.com; todd.garner at crbard.com; dmahlum at microsoft.com;
> jasonkap at hotmail.com; john.b.thorpe at smithbarney.com; reedp at microsoft.com;
> davjohn at microsoft.com; skindmore at aiken.com; jeff Skidmore; Mark Adams;
> raulj at microsoft.com; mattsmit at microsoft.com; Afif Say; Afif Say;
> jkap at microsoft.com; David Wiley; Tom and Julie Hatton; Arthur Hatton; Sanford
> Forte; textbook-l at wikimedia.org; beesley at gmail.com; soziologie at t-online.de;
> Eric Ringger
> Subject: [Instgrad] Utah OpenTexbooks Project (Project Dyson)
>
> Friends, Family, USU IT Faculty, Grad Students & Alumni,
>
> It's only in its infancy (pre-conception, you might even say), but I wanted to
> let you all know about a project that I've started to think about, under the
> guidance/tutelage of Dr. Wiley here at USU.
>
> It is currently called the "Utah OpenTextbooks Project" (codenamed "Project
> Dyson" by Dr. Wiley)--and I am considering doing my dissertation around it.
> The basic gist is as follows:
>
> The state of Utah, and other states like it, spend over $20M annually on K-12
> textbooks.  With that kind of money, and with shrinking educational budgets, a
> few questions are worth asking:
> * Are these textbooks worth the $$$?  Also, does a brand new U.S. History or
> Algebra 1 textbook need to be repurchased every few years (at full cost) for
> whatever few changes may be made?
> * Do we want a handful of states (New York, California, Florida, Texas)
> driving the content of textbooks in all the other states (which is basically
> what happens today, as I?m told)?
> * Could better, more innovate textbooks be developed in a community/open/wiki
> style (see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page and www.opensourcetext.org
> for starters), where the COMMUNITY would retain ownership of the content?or
> better yet, share w/ other states/countries?
> * Once a textbook has been written by a community, could digital learning
> objects be built around the text/course and provided as supplements to the
> textbook?helping teachers teach better, and learners learn better (think free
> multimedia clips for lectures, test banks and innovate lesson plans for
> teachers, or cool multimedia games/self-direct modules for student homework,
> etc.)
> * Finally, if we can create ?local? (statewide) online communities where
> teachers, students, and subject matter experts congregate to create textbooks,
> share lesson plans, and basically socialize in the context of an academic
> course...can we harness the power of the internet in more positive ways...to
> far more productive ends (think ?replace MTV or Xbox with ?Utah Math Rocks
> Internet Plaza???
>
> I have attached a very, very rough "Vision Document" that outlines what we
> have brainstormed, and some early, high-level steps on how we might go about
> achieving our vision.  If you are not comfortable opening attachments from an
> email (can?t imagine why you would be :) ), feel free to download the document
> from:
> http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oL1RQdNHDrnawcLP1c-av2v_Y1LRpZ_PL_4Paj7XwHCX0b_09
> Ppay-jJ0791jStsb2IgwQl1VSP0Rf6L3jpxxg/Utah%20OpenTextbooks%20Project.doc
>
> We need lots of input/ideas/feedback, so if any of you are interested in
> participating in/supporting this project in any way (even as a silent
> observer), please feel free to reply w/ feedback, or even join our community
> at:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/utahopentextbooks
>
> Also, if you know anyone interested in Utah Education, or Open Textbooks,
> please feel free to forward this message to them.
>
> I look forward to collaborating w/ those of you who are interested.  It will
> be a long journey to be sure, but hopefully a worthwhile one.
>
> John Dehlin
> Director of Outreach
> OSLO Research Group
> http://oslo.usu.edu/people/jdehlin
> Utah State University
>


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>--- Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com> wrote:
>
>
>>And ditto for the Tiananmen square articles, since only a couple
>>thousand
>>people died, after all - hardly any at all, percentagewise!
>>
>
>No, not ditto for the Tiananmen stuff. Yes it's horrible, but did you
>know that a 1850 rebellion cause 50 million deaths in China? Where's
>that article?
>
>Look at the whole filtering of internet content in america's school
>and libraries. It's been raging now for a while, with no end in
>sight. But nobody gets killed. Let's keep things in perspective.
>
Now I have no idea what you're trying to argue. In a wiki you're
not going to get very far trying to order people to write on
subject A before they write on subject B, and if your purpose is
to appease governments, for many editors that's all the excuse
they need to write in even more depth on the subjects you're
wanting to avoid.

If persons in the PRC want to risk real-world punishment by
reading or writing disapproved material, that's a judgement they
have to make for themselves; there's nobody on the outside
qualified to make that choice for them.

Stan


from_name: zhengzhu

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia in China

body:
While you are discussing this, note that such a dialogue may not be
easy to establish. The following is a message posted at zh.wp by
Mountain (http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E4%BA%92%E5%8A%A9%E5%AE%A2%E6%A0%88),
(roughly) translated into English as follow:

"The BBS that was recently closed in China is very similar to
wikipedia in that it was completely organized and supported by
volunteers. I have tried to get some information from some sysops of
that BBS; they indeed tried to talk with the government but they can
at best do so indirectly through the ISP or the school in which the
site is running. No one seems to know or is willing to tell which
organization is making the decision.   After the blocking in June,
Shizhao and I tried to ask our ISPs who to talk to, but to no avail.
We are currently talking to our ISPs again and see what we can do. -
Mountain 9-23-2004 "

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Mahan
<chris_mahan at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wonder whether and what extent W should open a dialogue with the
> Chinese government to figure out what their content guidelines are,
> and whether we can help them understand our NPOV guidelines.
>
> I would like to remind people that the Chinese are a very proud
> people (just like Americans) and don't like to be told what to do.
> Generally, though, they listen to reason and are eager to look at new
> ways of doing things.

--
zhengzhu


from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia in China

body:
Andrew Lih wrote:

>I'm not sure WP admins like being compared to the PRC authorities, however. :)
>
>
We do have a few who are zealous about banning. :-)

Ec


from_name: Andrew Lih

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
Node, some friendly advice - Wikipedians are some of the most
forgiving of folks on the 'net.  Being so argumentative is puzzling.
Just say sorry and move on.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:08:14 -0700, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > If you're objecting to articles, yes. What you do is replace the
> > copyrighted text with a copyvio notice.
>
> Yes. I suspected that the text of each and every single one of the
> articles I replaced was copyvio (with the exception of a couple I did
> by mistake which had no content at all).
>
> > The problem here, as I hope you've figured out, is that you weren't
> > accusing specific articles of being copyvio. You were accusing a whole
> > project of being a copyvio.
>
> No, I wasn't. I wasn't "accusing" anything of being anything.
>
> Regardless of that, there were quite a few pages (mostly talk pages)
> that I left up.
>
> > Thus the specific article replacement
> > served only to make a mess that was hard to clean up. Pretty much this
> > falls under "don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point." You picked a
> > disruptive and difficult to deal with way of expressing your concern of
> > copyvio that made a lot of work for people, was rude to people, and was
> > rightly read by people as a slap in the face to an entire Wikipedia.
>
> ...
>
> I did it out of concern and with nothing but the best intentions. I
> would hardly call it "disrupting wikipedia" as if you look at RC on
> tokipona: there have been no revisions since Angela rv'd my edits and
> an edit or two I made a few hours after that. Nobody even noticed what
> I had done for nearly 24 hours after I stopped doing it, and over 24
> hours after I started doing it; before I started there hadn't been any
> new articles for quite some time anyways and most non-new-article
> edits were very minor, and even they were few and far between (compare
> this to other Wikipedias with similar or even smaller contributor
> pools such as kw:, lb:, etc which have at times grown enourmously in
> the course of a week or less; although to be fair there are wikipedias
> with similar or [possibly?] larger contributor pools that grow at the
> same [or lower?] speed as tokipona:)
>
> Nobody came to me about the notices - had they discussed them with me
> and I realised that was not the way to deal with the issue, I would've
> taken them down myself.
>
> The intention was not to be rude to people. If I wanted to be rude to
> people, I would've done it on en:, and it would've probably been a lot
> worse than a couple of hundred copyvio notices.
>
> As to whether or not I support the existance of a Toki Pona wikipedia:
>
> Independent of all other concerns, yes. It's a conlang - I still
> support it. I also support Wikipedias in other conlangs; but given
> recent decisions on policy regarding wikipedias in such languages it
> seems very unfair. That doesn't mean I think Toki Pona should be
> removed.
>
> If you really care about whether or not I support conlang Wikipedias, get this:
>
> After a long heated discussion on the length and purpose of en:'s
> Template:Wikipedialang, Raul654 - the sysop who banned me for a short
> period of time for ths very incident - was the one who removed
> tokipona:, a Wikipedia with more than the required 100 articles, from
> the template citing "no original research". In none of my edits did I
> remove the link to the Toki Pona wikipedia, and any other links I
> removed (such as tlh:, jbo:, etc) were only in the interest of a
> peaceful resolution of the argument over the template (I was for
> keeping it long, like it used to be). Of course one could argue that
> by not adding it back, I was thus explicitly declaring my contempt for
> tokipona:. But I have learned from the past that edit wars are
> generally not nearly as important as they seem in the beginning and I
> recognised that for the best solution to the problem both Raul and I
> would have to make concessions, which is of course very true in real
> life as well (If you think I need to learn life lessons, look at all
> the heads of state in the world today who do not seem to recognise
> that in a conflict major concessions are required from both sides,
> regardless of who is "right").
>
> That's nothing against Raul, many people clearly don't like tokipona:,
> but I would generally not count myself among their ranks. FWIW, I
> truly cannot consider myself entirely for conlang Wikipedias, because
> I do think that perhaps the best solution for these Wikipedias today
> is to search for a home more accepting of them, which would obviously
> not be reached by abrupt content removal and such would not prove a
> point in that direction either.
>
> > You could have posted to the mailing list, to Meta, asked in IRC, or
> > even, since I know you've had a conversation with Sonja on IRC, asked
> > her specifically, since you knew she was involved in the project. You
> > did none of these things. Instead, you caused trouble.
>
> 1. Sonja is not on IRC all the time. When she is, she's not always
> active in #wikipedia. The same is true for all non-bots.
> 2. As I noted before, I was under the mistaken impression that as far
> as copyvios go, policy said to act first and ask questions later to
> protect the interests of Wikipedia (as I have said before, IANAL, and
> apparently even in cases of blatant infringement there is plenty of
> time to take such things down, especially if legal action hasn't been
> threatened/taken)
> 3. As I said before, her comments on IRC were indicative of her not
> being too involved in the Toki Pona wikipedia.
> 4. I *had* asked her a day or so before, and she responded that she
> was basically worn out from all the attention she gets over Toki Pona
> and thus did not want to talk about it - that was the answer I got
> from her. The Toki Pona website otoh has the very ambiguous "(c) toki
> pona blah blah blah blah blah blah" which can obviously be taken to
> mean that Toki Pona itself is copyrighted. It has of course been noted
> that copyrighted material can be released, but as I said before in a
> cursory google search I found no implicit or explicit release on the
> part of Sonja.
> 5. "Instead, you caused trouble" implies that my actions were in bad
> faith, which I continue to assert they were most certainly *not*.
>
> > As I said, I hope you understand this point. Because, quite honestly,
> > if you don't, that's even more troubling than your removal of a whole
> > Wikipedia.
>
> What's troubling to me is that people have told me over and over how
> bad I am for doing that, that I shouldn'tve done it, that it was
> wrong, etc etc etc ad nauseam. I fail to see how one single person can
> believe that if they repeat to me basically the same things said
> before, many of them seemingly in contradiction to and without
> refutation or explicit dissent towards things I have already said.
>
> While the volume of mail from the ML alone about this is annoying in
> and of itself, it certainly doesn't help that I have had been
> reprimanded similarly by just about everybody in #wikipedia whether it
> was gently or harshly, often more than once; I have also had (minor)
> issues in other chatrooms and on Wikipedia itself.
>
> What I'm saying here is not that it's unreasonable for people to
> respond to an action they find objectionable, but rather that if it's
> been said already, you don't need to say it again because I heard it
> the first time and quite frankly if this never stops I will probably
> end up turning into a bad user (If you think I'm a bad user now, you
> wouldn't want to imagine me in that situation). If you want to turn
> this into a quickpoll/lynchmob, then fine, but if you're going to turn
> it into a tell-him-exactly-what-he-did-wrong-in-2-or-more-paragraphs
> fest, please leave me out as I've already heard it all.
>
> --node
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>

--
Andrew Lih
andrew.lih at gmail.com


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona and node

body:
Mark Williamson wrote:

>Peter, honestly what am I supposed to do when there are messages on
>the ml that are against me, often ignoring important things (ie, that
>I already apologised)?
>
>I am willing to drop this here and now but honestly it doesn't seem
>like everybody else is, though I appreciate those who are.
>
>
People live around the world in different time zones.  They came on line
at times that are best suited to their own lives.  Thus, even after
taking the appropriate steps it still needs a good 24 hours before the
effect is felt.

Some of us who were annoyed by your actions are also annoyed by the
overreaction of others.

Ec


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [Wikitech-l] Upload limitations

body:
On Sep 23, 2004, at 1:09 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:
> We're tightening up security on the uploads due to exploitable
> Internet Explorer and Safari bugs that allow for scripting attacks to
> steal session and saved password cookies.

Safari's been rendered safe by using application/x-wiki instead of
text/plain or application/octet-stream for text and default mime types.

IE 6 -- even on the brand spanking new Windows XP Service Pack 2 --
remains vulnerable to HTML+JavaScript attacks in files with (at least)
the following spoofed extensions:

   Already blacklisted:
   * htm html phtml php

   Now protected by a validity check at upload time:
   * png jpg jpeg gif bmp

   Still vulnerable, but disallowed by the whitelist for now:
   * txt pdf ps eps avi mpg mpeg bin class <- not yet protected

The problem is that IE ignores *both* the Content-Type header *and* the
file extension if it "recognizes" the extension, and follows the
existence of HTML fragments in the first 256 bytes like a weary sailor
following a siren to a watery grave.

I'm also running a check on all uploads to find HTML/JavaScript
snippets still remaining. Mostly I'm seeing a handful of wiki pages
that were accidentally(?) saved as HTML and uploaded with an image file
extensions, probably due to clicking 'save' on the wrong thing.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital

body:
BBC's "Go Digital" radio programme
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/1478157.stm), have contacted me
about doing an interview for them. They would also like to speak to
someone outside of Europe or the US. The interview will be focusing on
the fact Wikipedia has just reached one million articles, and will
have a global slant since the World Service program goes out
worldwide. The interview could be by phone, or, preferably, in a
studio if someone who lives near a BBC studio could be found. They are
particularly looking for someone who is able to talk about the use of
Wikipedia in their country, not only the editing of it.

I don't know the exact date of when this will happen, but they are
phoning me back to tomorrow hoping for a contact for the other part of
the report.

If anyone would be interested in being interviewed for this, please
contact me as soon as possible.

Thank you.

Angela.


subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia  in China

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:

> I have to disagree here...

I understand your points of view.

I would rather chinese botanists be able to add articles than have
chinese wikipedia permanently blocked because of three dozens
articles that incense the reds.

I also agree that self-censorship is bad, but I don't think that's
what Ant meant. I think she means that if we are respectful of other
people' sensitivities, then a greater good will come out in the end.

I also think that having chinese and non-western editors on w is a
great advantage to us, because it demonstrates our commitment to
NPOV.

I also agree that the W will outlive just about all current
governments, and may even be instrumental in their changing for the
better.

For this reason, I suggest we proceed with caution.

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

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from_name: Rowan Collins

subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Test my lex/yacc parser!

references:
<cigum2$i19$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c04091910144fb9fc68@mail.gmail.com>
	<cil3do$mpb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c04092005563f022703@mail.gmail.com>
	<cimtnk$o3c$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:40:30 +0100, Timwi <timwi at gmx.net> wrote:
> Rowan Collins wrote:
>
> > I know the current version doesn't do anything, but I've been meaning
> > for a while to finalise a patch to show a message saying "This is a
> > redirect to [[foo]]".
>
> This has already been done in 1.4.

Hm, figures! I really must start finishing what I start, rather than
leaving it on a "to-do" list for six months and then discovering its
redundant... Still, doesn't this mean the parser needs to recognise
"#REDIRECT <linkpattern>" as a special token? And doesn't that, in
turn, present a problem if we want to retain MagicWord i18n?

> >>* Things like __NOTOC__ and stuff can be handled like this:
> >>   * Regard *everything* of the form __CAPITALLETTERS__ as a special
> >>     token
> >
> > Actually, it can be lower case currently.
> Indeed. I didn't know that. But it isn't a problem at all. Even with it
> being case-insensitive, I don't think it's asking too much of the users
> to put <nowiki> around anything that looks like these, since they are
> rarely enough intended to be actual text. I would highly doubt that any
> significant amount of articles is currently relying on them being text.

True. So long as the ones that function now will still function, we
should be fine.

> >>* HTML tags and extension names are either not internationalised, or all
> >>   translations of them are made to work on all Wikipedias.
<snip>
> I'm not sure why you think allowing all translations on all Wikipedias
> would be a "step backwards"? Or do you seriously think someone would use
> the Chinese translation of <math> on the English Wikipedia? :)

It's a step backwards because instead of being able to say "yes, we
have an i18n system for you to customise these 'magic words' according
to your language and preference", we will be saying "the parser knows
a few variants for each of these 'magic words'; if you want to add any
more, tell us, and we'll recompile the parser for you". In my opinion
this is quite a big deal - essentially, we are dropping a feature of
the software. Not that I've come up with a workable alternative yet,
it just seems a shame.

And no, I don't think anyone will need the Chinese translation of
<math> on the English Wikipedia, and for that precise reason see no
reason the English wikipedia should be parsing for it.

> * We could replace the "other-language" words with the "this-language"
>    words upon save. I.e. if someone wrote <math> on the Chinese
>    Wikipedia, it would automatically be changed into "<" + some Chinese
>    characters + ">" before storing it in the DB.

Sorry, I'm not with you on this one - are you suggesting that the
Chinese parser be specifically compiled to only cope with the Chinese
magic words? If so, perhaps you misunderstood my problem with having
all variants coded in: its not that they will all work everywhere, but
that adding new ones would (if I understand the whole yacc concept
correctly) require recompiling a new parser, rather than just tweaking
the appropriate language or settings file.

> * Alternatively, we could have the parser recognise only the canonical
>    (English) words, and have the PHP software replace non-English magic
>    words with the canonical (English) words before invoking the parser.
>    I am uncomfortable with this solution because it resorts to the same
>    kind of patchwork that is erking me about the current not-a-parser.

I agree, this would not be at all elegant.

> > Perhaps extensions could be made to return a parse sub-tree (even if
> > it only has one element).  Then we could use a HTML "extension" bound
> > to all allowed HTML tags, which just called the original parser back
> > on the contents of the tags.
>
> This is an interesting thought, but I think it is inefficient with
> regards to performance. If the parser knows about allowed HTML tags (and
> the difference between an HTML tag and an extension) beforehand, this
> extra step would be saved.

Yeah, as soon as I wrote it, I realised that it would end up rather
expensive efficiency-wise.

> Additionally, your idea works only for tags
> that are independent of other tags; it would not work well with tables.

Indeed, I hadn't thought of the necessity to parse whole bunches of
HTML tags relative to each other. I suppose you could have HTML tags
explicitly defined, and have a not-extension that spat back things
which looked like extensions but weren't; it would still mean that any
disallowed HTML or HTML-like tag would add an extra call to the
parser, and I'm not sure if that would be an acceptable price or not.

So maybe you're right, and the only workable solution is to have all
variants hard-coded in the parser. I guess this is where we come to
regret adopting an "extension" syntax that matches/conflicts with the
syntax used by "allowed bits of HTML".

If we want to keep true customisation of magic words (where "editing
the source" != "customisation") the best idea I've come up with is:
1) hard-code all allowed HTML into the parser. This means maximum
efficiency for those bits, and the ability to handle relationships
between them, etc.
2) treat everything else matching "<"+some_letters+">" as an
"extension" and spew out its contents as one element of the parse
tree. If the receiving PHP script then says "there's no such
extension", it escapes the "<" and ">", and passes the contents back
to be parsed normally.

This would be acceptable IFF a) cases of erroneous <tags> were pretty
rare, so the load created by parsing them separately was not too high;
AND b) it was acceptable that erroneous tags inside complex HTML
structures would break that structure - e.g. "

<foo>Some
text	</foo>

" would not parse correctly, because the
second call to the parser would contain just "Some text	",
which would probably be impossible to parse properly in isolation. Of
course, even this could be avoided if the entire text were re-parsed,
with the erroneous tags escaped, but that's adding yet more
overhead...

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia  in China

body:
--- Jens Ropers <ropers at ropersonline.com> wrote:

> On 24 Sep 2004, at 03:01, Christopher Mahan wrote:
>
> > I also think that having chinese and non-western editors on w is
> a
> > great advantage to us, because it demonstrates our commitment to
> > NPOV.
> >
> > I also agree that the W will outlive just about all current
> > governments, and may even be instrumental in their changing for
> the
> > better.
>
> Please don't abbreviate the Wikipedia as "W".
> Please use "WP" instead.
> As of late, I tend to get to feel very, very sick whenever I read
> "W".
>
> Thank you for your consideration.

Don't censor me man!!!

If you feel sick when you see the double-u, then I suggest you take a
few days off and see a specialist. It's a letter of the alphabet, for
Pete's Sake!

Why WP? It's not Wiki Pedia, it Wikipedia. One word.  Anyway. We've
strayed in the land of OT, so I'll go home now...

=====
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo.com
chris.mahan at gmail.com
http://www.christophermahan.com/

__________________________________
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from_name: Ashar Voultoiz

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org>	<ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<cisuud$ovk$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote:
> Ashar Voultoiz wrote:
>
>> Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:,
>> el:, jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
>>
>> The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .
>
>
> Thanks!  For some reason, though, the zh-min-nan logo still appears as
> English.  I tried dumping old browser cache.  Could this be related to
> the fact that zh-min-nan also doesn't show up on
> http://download.wikimedia.org?

Hello,
I made a typo when adding the logo for zh_min_nan . It's corrected now :o)

--
Ashar Voultoiz


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<a33869c8040923012350acd441@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Petr Kadlec wrote:
>>Updated logos for ast:, csb:, nn:, uk:, ml:, bs:, be:, zh-min-nan:, el:,
>>jbo:, ur:, sw:, sk, mk:, lv:, az:, lb:, tt:, nds:, and nv: .
>>
>>The used logo is at [[Image:Wiki.png]] .
>
> Hmmm...maybe I don't understand what has been done...Should this mean
> that these Wikipedias have now their localized logos?  If yes, 1. why
> isn't cs: among them? 2. I don't think it works (e.g. sk: seems to
> still have the old logo, randomly chosen az: seems that the logo
> displays correctly only in articles, but the main page still uses the
> english logo).

Cs: wasn't in the list on meta so I didn't update it. It's now working.

For sk and az : clear your browser cache or wait for squids to refresh
themselves.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


from_name: yuanml

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia is big in China six was once blockade again

body:
The news about blockage is not confirmed by other Wikipedians in Mainland China yet.
I still can access the whole Wikimedia projects now.
We'd better wait to see whether we are blocked or not.

--[[User:Mountain]]


subject: [Wikipedia-l] security warning!!!

body:
as [[User:formulax]] mentioned in
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2004-September/017409.html

The guy called [[User:Yaohua2000]] today upload a text file,
in which contains passwords of some users, to threaten us.
we deleted the file immediately.
but the situation seems very dangerous for us now,
one can steal the password of our users.

The flood vandalism in Zh: serveral months ago was took by [[User:Yaohua2000]].
This guy seems to be very clever but very evil also.


from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia  in China

body:
Jens Ropers wrote:

>
> Yet you're telling our Chinese contributors--who are of the very
> people who have paid such a high price--you're telling them to their
> face that THEIR government, not the Japanese/German Fascist Axis, but
> rather THEIR government was  "nothing but fascism".
>
> Excuse me, but I for one find that stark. I'm not Chinese, but if I
> was Chinese I would go livid right now and demand a public apology.

That is the most bizarre line of reasoning I've seen all week.

Stan


subject: [Wikitech-l] security warning!!!


from_name: Jens Ropers

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: toki pona

body:
On 23 Sep 2004, at 04:07, Phil Sandifer wrote:

> since I know you've had a conversation with Sonja on IRC,

What? WHAT !?!?!?

Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN [[en:User:Node ue]] did have an IRC
conversation with [[en:User:Sonjaaa]] some time BEFORE he went on his
content removal spree??

If that's true then to me that's an absolute bombshell, because--say
what you might--I (for one) would certainly see that as sufficient
proof of malicious intent.
And malicious intent is a whole lotta worse than daftness.

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


subject:
[Wikitech-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership
	with Mandrakesoft

body:
On 23 Sep 2004, at 03:26, Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote:
>> My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style
>> Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images
>> lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and
>> possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well
>> (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably
>> not a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that
>> it's bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside
>> is that it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe
>> needed.
>
> Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I
> think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that
> state. I can't support this as described.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

<aol>
I second Erik, Mark (Delirium) and Brion's concerns. The biggest issue
is copyrights and another issue is to sort out the fluff from the
stuff. (Admittedly there is alotta fluff in there at any given time, so
no matter how quickly any fluff would get improved, the fluff would be
in a ''snapshot'' and that needs sorting out.) I reckon an even
remotely legally tenable and generally "decent enough" solution will
probably take until AT LEAST winter 2005/2006, and probably a year
longer. Unless Mandrake were ready to put in all that work (and they'd
only have to pay a couple of thousand professional reviewers given the
timeframe they're proposing), a suitable "review mechanism 2.0" would
be about ''essential'' in order to "get there". Such a mechanism would
still have to be (a) agreed upon, then (b) developed, then (c) deployed
and it's only then that (d) the "getting-it-right" process proper can
even START. This will take time. Especially because "(a)" should not be
rushed.

I'm not under the impression that Mandrake are fully aware of what
their proposal would entail.
</aol>

-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]]
     www.ropersonline.com


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
--- Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:
> 1) make open list of untagged images and announce properly on community
> portal and the like that all of these images which are not tagged by date
> N will be hidden
> 2) fix stupid upload form
> (They should happen at the same time.)

I'm in 100% agreement with Erik on these points. I also do *not* want to see my
favorite Linux distro get in trouble over this.

</aol>

But would it be possible to automatically exclude untagged images when the date
arrives? Or would humans have to comment each out in wiki text? My
understanding of the category system is that it is not yet up to task to do
this type of thing. But things change so fast around here, I'm probably wrong
on that point. Is so, please explain.

-- mav

__________________________________
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Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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from_name: Timwi

references:
<cigum2$i19$1@sea.gmane.org>	<9f02ca4c04091910144fb9fc68@mail.gmail.com>	<cil3do$mpb$1@sea.gmane.org>	<9f02ca4c04092005563f022703@mail.gmail.com>	<cimtnk$o3c$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<9f02ca4c04092310162250f65a@mail.gmail.com>

body:
Hi,

> Still, doesn't this mean the parser needs to recognise
> "#REDIRECT <linkpattern>" as a special token? And doesn't that, in
> turn, present a problem if we want to retain MagicWord i18n?

Not really. We can still recognise redirects with a regexp (or anything
else in PHP) before passing the page to the parser.

>>I'm not sure why you think allowing all translations on all Wikipedias
>>would be a "step backwards"? Or do you seriously think someone would use
>>the Chinese translation of <math> on the English Wikipedia? :)
>
> It's a step backwards because instead of being able to say "yes, we
> have an i18n system for you to customise these 'magic words' according
> to your language and preference", we will be saying "the parser knows
> a few variants for each of these 'magic words'; if you want to add any
> more, tell us, and we'll recompile the parser for you".

First of all, even in the current system there is no way for server
admins to customise the magic words without modifying actual source
code. Secondly, you're making it sound like recompiling the parser was
some sort of monumental task.

Here's an idea. One could provide a .c or .h file where #define
statements are used to define the magic words, and then make sure that
if you modify it, you only need to recompile the binary (i.e. invoke
gcc) but you don't need flex, bison, or swig. But even if you were to
require flex, bison and swig, even then the recompilation can be
automated by a simple script.

Here's another reason why I think the parser should recognise all
variants of the magic words. Think about the alternative. The
alternative is to have "<xyz>" mean "invoke the math extension" on one
Wikipedia, but "<xyz>" on another. What is the point in allowing
for articles to exist that rely on "<xyz>" meaning "<xyz>" when it
means "math" elsewhere?

> And no, I don't think anyone will need the Chinese translation of
> <math> on the English Wikipedia, and for that precise reason see no
> reason the English wikipedia should be parsing for it.

It doesn't make a performance difference, if that's what you're worrying
about.

>>* We could replace the "other-language" words with the "this-language"
>>   words upon save. I.e. if someone wrote <math> on the Chinese
>>   Wikipedia, it would automatically be changed into "<" + some Chinese
>>   characters + ">" before storing it in the DB.
>
> Sorry, I'm not with you on this one - are you suggesting that the
> Chinese parser be specifically compiled to only cope with the Chinese
> magic words? If so, perhaps you misunderstood my problem with having
> all variants coded in: its not that they will all work everywhere, but
> that adding new ones would (if I understand the whole yacc concept
> correctly) require recompiling a new parser, rather than just tweaking
> the appropriate language or settings file.

To the first part: No, the idea was to have one parser that recognises
everything, but to expose to the Chinese users only the Chinese variant
even if someone typed in the Swahili one. (Haha.) But of course that
doesn't solve your problem. I mentioned above that recompiling the
parser is by no means difficult, and that the current system also
requires editing source code, but if you still think that it's a
problem, then we're stuck because I don't know what else we can do.

> So maybe you're right, and the only workable solution is to have all
> variants hard-coded in the parser. I guess this is where we come to
> regret adopting an "extension" syntax that matches/conflicts with the
> syntax used by "allowed bits of HTML".

True. If we had something like [!math x^2 + y^2 = z^2 !], then we could
say "everything in [! ... !] is an extension". Would make life much easier.

> If we want to keep true customisation of magic words (where "editing
> the source" != "customisation") the best idea I've come up with is:
> 1) hard-code all allowed HTML into the parser. This means maximum
> efficiency for those bits, and the ability to handle relationships
> between them, etc.
> 2) treat everything else matching "<"+some_letters+">" as an
> "extension" and spew out its contents as one element of the parse
> tree. If the receiving PHP script then says "there's no such
> extension", it escapes the "<" and ">", and passes the contents back
> to be parsed normally.

Unfortunately, this opens a whole other can of worms. What if there is
no end tag? What if there is other mark-up partly inside and partly
outside the "extension" block?

	He said, "What the ''<swearword>'' is going on?"

I think, considering all of these problems we have discussed, it makes a
real lot of sense to formulate a "rule" that the design of the parser
should fulfill: The parser must know in advance how to parse everything.
The resulting parse tree must not depend on anything other than the
input wiki text.

Greetings,
Timwi


from_name: Jean-Christophe Chazalette

body:
Are we talking about a formal written contract or about an oral agreement ?
Needless to say I strongly encourage a formal distribution deal, the
transfer of responsibilty having quite a big potential of financial troubles
(suing Wikimedia Foundation is not an opportunity because it is a Foundation
and it has no significant financial background, this is not at all the same
for MandrakeSoft ...). If needed, I'm willing to assess such a written
contract.

villy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela" <beesley at gmail.com>
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l at wikimedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft

Mandrakesoft are aware of our editing processes. They know what they
are getting, and that the content has not been verified. They have
agreed to take legal responsibility for this. Basically, the only
changes we are making is to remove images tagged as fair use, unknown,
unverified and other unsuitable ones. Since the image tagging efforts
on the English Wikipedia are going fairly slowly, there may be a large
number of untagged images would also need to be removed.

The arguments over whether a Wikipedia DVD is going to be useful to
people aren't really for us to decide. Mandrake obviously think people
are interested in this, and if they turn out not to be because they
can read it online, then we haven't lost anything. The chances are
though that this will significantly increase the exposure of Wikipedia
to a wider audience. Hopefully many of them will access it online, and
even become editors themselves, but I don't think that detracts from
the appeal of having a DVD published.

This DVD production is in no way meant to deter people from the
validation processes that are being proposed. Obviously these will be
hugely beneficial for future distributions. However, it's also going
to take a very long time before the product of such processes is
ready, so distributing a non-validated version in advance of that is
beneficial.

No one is claiming this distribution is perfect, but as a snapshot of
Wikipedia I feel it is valuable. It's great advertising for us, it's
great as an early trial of distributing our content offline, and it's
great for raising awareness of the need to tag images properly.

I strongly encourage others to help with the tagging drive as there
are still many untagged images that can not be distributed at this
stage. I'd also like to thank the following people for taking in part
in the recent drive to tag images. This is based on the recent changes
to the lists of untagged images, and the list of participants at
[[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]], so I apologize in advance for
anyone I've missed out: Yann, Jdforrester, Eugene van der Pijll, Tom-,
Diberri, Rich Farmbrough, Gamaliel, Stan Shebs, Lupin, Sj, Blankfaze,
Chmod007, GeneralPatton, Frecklefoot, Sunborn, Morven, ?var Arnfj?r?
Bjarmason, Trilobite, Poccil, Morwen, Secretlondon, Anthony DiPierro,
Imran, Maximus Rex, Flockmeal, Guanaco, and Frazzydee. Thanks also to
Looxix for creating the lists of untagged images and everyone who has
been doing the same task on the French Wikipedia.

Please help with the tagging at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images and see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft for further
information.

Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


from_name: Petr Kadlec

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Requests for logos

references:
<a33869c804092201194bfb3aeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<849f98ed04092201287be92ddf@mail.gmail.com>
	<cisa24$fu5$1@sea.gmane.org> <ciskep$hqe$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<a33869c8040923012350acd441@mail.gmail.com>
	<ciutkm$hn8$1@sea.gmane.org>

body:
Well, it was on the [[Requests for logos]] list, that was the only
list I knew about ;-)

Many thanks, it works perfectly now!


references:
<cigum2$i19$1@sea.gmane.org>	<9f02ca4c04091910144fb9fc68@mail.gmail.com>	<cil3do$mpb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<414F325A.80504@hackish.org>

body:
Delirium wrote:

>> * The "Media", "Image" and other namespaces are handled in
>>   post-processing. The parser sees them as text within the link target.
>
> perhaps a first-pass postprocessor could stick them into the tree?

This is what I meant by post-processing. The post-processing step is an
operation on the parse tree. Its output is the minorly transformed parse
tree. After post-processing, the finished parse tree is handed to the
output generator ("compiler", if you will).

> it'd avoid an "if this is really an image, render it this way" check on
> every link node in the AST.

This sort of check is not only negligibly unnoticeably fast, but it's
also unavoidable: Whether the parser does it during parsing, or the
post-processor during post-processing, or the output generator during
output generation, makes no difference.

Timwi


body:
Nikola Smolenski wrote:

> On Saturday 18 September 2004 11:19, Timwi wrote:
>
>>- HTML tags (currently everything between <something> and </something>
>>   is treated as an 'extension'; I need to limit that to <nowiki>, <pre>,
>>   <math>, <hiero>, <music> and <chem> for now)
>
> Will this list be extensible (without recompiling the parser)?

Not without recompiling the parser, of course. But as I said in an
earlier mail, recompiling the parser is easy and fast.

What would the alternative be? If you don't want to have to recompile
it, then the parser would have to read and interpret the contents of
some file at the beginning of every single invocation. That would take
away quite a lot of performance.

Timwi


from_name: David Gerard

body:
On 09/23/04 17:54, Brion Vibber wrote:

> There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will
> be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism. And in six months
> when they go to press, the Wikipedia on the web will be much improved --
> but every mistake in their published copy will be preserved indelibly
> and it's us, not Mandrake, who's going to get the bad press over it.

So are we talking Netscape 6.0, or worse? Or better?

I see lots of good stuff when I edit Wikipedia, but hitting 'random link'
twenty times throws up a sample that says to me 'so not ready for prime
time' ...

- d.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] About ban in China

body:
Some other users in Beijing had confirmed the ban, but I can still access wikimedia so far.
Some others in Shanghai and Nanjing reported they can access wikimedia also.

Experience from the last blockage in June, if the government decide to ban,
it will take several days to perform the ban in the whole nation.

will see whether or not.


subject: [Textbook-l] FW: Utah OpenTexbooks Project (Project Dyson)

body:
FYI.  We would love to collaborate w/ wikimedia.org.

John Dehlin

------ Forwarded Message

Subject: Utah OpenTexbooks Project (Project Dyson)

Friends, Family, USU IT Faculty, Grad Students & Alumni,

It's only in its infancy (pre-conception, you might even say), but I wanted
to let you all know about a project that I've started to think about, under
the guidance/tutelage of Dr. Wiley here at USU.

It is currently called the "Utah OpenTextbooks Project" (codenamed "Project
Dyson" by Dr. Wiley)--and I am considering doing my dissertation around it.
The basic gist is as follows:

The state of Utah, and other states like it, spend over $20M annually on
K-12 textbooks.  With that kind of money, and with shrinking educational
budgets, a few questions are worth asking:

* Are these textbooks worth the $$$?  Also, does a brand new U.S. History or
Algebra 1 textbook need to be repurchased every few years (at full cost) for
whatever few changes may be made?
* Do we want a handful of states (New York, California, Florida, Texas)
driving the content of textbooks in all the other states (which is basically
what happens today, as I?m told)?
* Could better, more innovate textbooks be developed in a
community/open/wiki style (see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page and
www.opensourcetext.org for starters), where the COMMUNITY would retain
ownership of the content?or better yet, share w/ other states/countries?
* Once a textbook has been written by a community, could digital learning
objects be built around the text/course and provided as supplements to the
textbook?helping teachers teach better, and learners learn better (think
free multimedia clips for lectures, test banks and innovate lesson plans for
teachers, or cool multimedia games/self-direct modules for student homework,
etc.)
* Finally, if we can create ?local? (statewide) online communities where
teachers, students, and subject matter experts congregate to create
textbooks, share lesson plans, and basically socialize in the context of an
academic course...can we harness the power of the internet in more positive
ways...to far more productive ends (think ?replace MTV or Xbox with ?Utah
Math Rocks Internet Plaza???

I have attached a very, very rough "Vision Document" that outlines what we
have brainstormed, and some early, high-level steps on how we might go about
achieving our vision.  If you are not comfortable opening attachments from
an email (can?t imagine why you would be :) ), feel free to download the
document from:
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oL1RQdNHDrnawcLP1c-av2v_Y1LRpZ_PL_4Paj7XwHCX0b_
09Ppay-jJ0791jStsb2IgwQl1VSP0Rf6L3jpxxg/Utah%20OpenTextbooks%20Project.doc

We need lots of input/ideas/feedback, so if any of you are interested in
participating in/supporting this project in any way (even as a silent
observer), please feel free to reply w/ feedback, or even join our community
at:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/utahopentextbooks

Also, if you know anyone interested in Utah Education, or Open Textbooks,
please feel free to forward this message to them.

I look forward to collaborating w/ those of you who are interested.  It will
be a long journey to be sure, but hopefully a worthwhile one.

John Dehlin
Director of Outreach
OSLO Research Group
http://oslo.usu.edu/people/jdehlin
Utah State University

------ End of Forwarded Message


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia  in China

body:
Although it seems hopeless we should, without compromising our essential
principles, do what we can to negotiate.

Fred

> From: Stirling Newberry <stirling.newberry at xigenics.net>
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:10:27 -0400
> To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia  in China
>
> Might I suggest that this is not a productive way of dealing with the
> question of keeping Wikipedia, or most of it, accessible to people
> within the People's Republic of China. Our POV's on the Chinese
> government aren't the issue here, it is the government of the PRC's POV
> on Wikipedia.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l


subject: [Foundation-l] favicons

body:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:42:05 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's really cool.  I would love to see different favicons, too... also for the
> foundationwiki and wiktionary.

Boy, how I hate that word "favicon"! Everything about it makes me
cringe, from it's association with "favorites" to the way it sounds!

Nice graphics, though, and a really good idea - it's one more helping
hand to get the other parts of Wikimedia out from the shadow of
Wikipedia.

> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:42 -0700, Joshua Swink <yathster at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote,
> > and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They
> > are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/.

--
Rowan Collins BSc
[IMSoP]


subject: [Foundation-l] favicons


from_name: Stirling Newberry

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia  in China

body:
Might I suggest that this is not a productive way of dealing with the
question of keeping Wikipedia, or most of it, accessible to people
within the People's Republic of China. Our POV's on the Chinese
government aren't the issue here, it is the government of the PRC's POV
on Wikipedia.


from_name: Delirium

subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

>--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Stan is being sarcastic, but how would that article be handled?
>>
>>
>
>Like I said, no article.
>
>We're building an encyclopedia, not an activist website.
>
>
Exactly: look up the definition of encyclopedia.  If we are excluding
notable information because it is politically unpopular, we are not an
encyclopedia, but propaganda.  I would rather have no Chinese Wikipedia
than an overtly propagandist Chinese Wikipedia.

-Mark


subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: wikipedia  in China

body:
Anthere wrote:

> Is that censorship ?
>
> Well... self-censorship, perhaps.
>
> But
> * the day clitoris pictures are put on the english wikipedia without
> causing an uproar (because clitoris are shoking and might get
> wikipedia censored in schools)
> * the day we can put ethnic statistics on the french wikipedia without
> causing an uproar (because "races" do not exist and publishing stats
> might get wikipedia shut down for publishing illegal information)

You should note that the clitoris pictures currently are, and have been
for upwards of a year, included in the English Wikipedia.

Also, nobody has seriously suggested removing them: the argument has
been over whether to have them inline or linked.  There is no measurable
support for actually suppressing their availability, so I don't see the
similarity---they will be there in some shape or form regardless of
which side in the argument prevails.

-Mark


from_name: Craig Franklin

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Sorry 'bout yesterday's message

body:
As you probably all know, I get my subscription to this mailing list in
digest form.  I shot off a reply last night after a few ales, and forgot to
cull out the "reply" part of the mail, resulting in me sending a whole
message digest to the whole list.  It was a pretty silly thing to do, and I
do apologise if I annoyed anyone through my carelessness.

Regards,
- Craig

-------------------
Craig Franklin
PO Box 764
Ashgrove, Q, 4060
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
and Culture.


subject: [Wikipedia-l] wikipedia  in China

body:
Christopher Mahan wrote:

> Yes, the US government (bombmaking, etc) , the UK government (a very
>
>recent letter on this very mailing list, or is it the other? about
>the academy for gifted kids), the French government (Nazi stuff),
>etc. These are the Enlightened countries, with a history seeped in
>freedom of speech and protection from government interference.
>
>
I believe we're making every effort possible to fight these as well.
Wikipedia is currently hosted in the US partly as an accident of
origins, and partly because it seems to have the strongest free-speech
protection laws (to actually make us take anything down would take a
difficult-to-win court case).  If it's determined that there's a better
place for it, I'd be all for moving it there, but I certainly don't
support taking things down simply because he US, UK, French, or some
other government dislikes them.  If we're legally forced to remove
something by a court with jurisdiction over the Wikipedia servers, then
I suppose we'd have to do so as a temporary measure until we can find a
way to move the servers, but that's about the only possible
justification I can think of for removing such information.

-Mark


from_name: Rick

subject: [WikiEN-l] Recurring error messages

body:
I keep getting this error message while trying to use Wikipedia.  It's been occurring for the last two days or so, off and on:

Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-new/includes/LoadBalancer.php on line 111

RickK

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