subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: error on searching

body:
Brion - thanks for fixing the "search" button.

I said:
> > 2. Even if you hand-fix the search, the title search doesn't work
> > at all, nor is there any hint that the search wasn't performed.
> > It should either do a title search (that's not expensive), or
> > at least say "No title search performed, server too overwhelmed".

Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu> replied:
>
> Jeebus, how many more disclaimers do I have to put into that thing?

You don't need MORE disclaimers.  I think part of the problem is
that the text labelled "Results:" above the disclaimer makes it
appear that the disclaimer is irrelevant.
The current display looks like the system _did_ do a
search, with null results.  It's then followed by some sort of
disclaimer, saying that sometimes searching is disabled
(during your peak hours).  But since I got search results,
clearly it's not your peak hours and searching is currently
enabled.  At least, that's what I thought the Wikipedia meant.
Apparantly that's not what was meant.
At least, I find it very confusing, and I suspect others will too.

When searching is disabled, I believe Wikipedia should
NOT display the following text:
"Showing below 20 results starting with #1.
 View (previous 20) (next 20) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500)."
Instead, it should IMMEDIATELY display the disclaimer, and _explicitly_
state that searching is CURRENTLY disabled.  How about this?:
"Sorry, but searching is currently disabled.
Wikipedia's internal search capability is disabled during
peak hours (16:00-04:00 UTC / 9:00-17:00 PDT) to reduce
server strain. As a temporary measure, you can search for
text appearing in Wikipedia pages via Google, but be aware that
the index is incomplete and some pages will be out of date.
If you know the exact name of the article, just enter the title's
name and press the 'Go' button at the top right side of the display."

If title searching is being disabled - and not just article title
searching - I think the disclaimer should say that "text search"
is disabled, not "full-text search" (as I've shown above).
Some people (including me!) would presume "full-text search" to mean
searching inside every single article's body, and wouldn't think
that "title search" is the same as "full-text search".

If my understanding is right, this isn't really a "bug" -
it's a user interface issue.  I think the current
text could confuse some people (it's certainly confusing me).
By NOT displaying potentially confusing information,
I think it'd be better.

Anyway, I hope I caused no offense.  I really appreciate the
work you do!


list: wikitech-l

source: pipermail-mbox

from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] Switching over to Larousse

body:
> (Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>):
> On Mon, 12 May 2003, Jason Richey wrote:
> > I'm confused...  I thought that we had decided to just swap IPs at the
> > correct time, so the transfer is immediate.  Did I miss something?
>
> Hmm, well we could do that, but we'd have to transfer all phase3 wikis
> simultaneously, which wasn't what Lee had talked about earlier. (The
> easiest thing to do at that point would be to bodily transfer the
> /apache/htdocs* and /apache/conf directories to the other server. Or else
> put some more work into making centralized scripts that can produce the
> proper directory tree and config files, which we'll want for adding more
> wikis later.) You'd also still have to switch the DNS entries for pliny
> and larousse, unless we're switching their names to match their IPs. ;)

I'd really rather not do that. The setup on Pliny has become crufty
and hard to maintain. I went out of my way to install the software on
Larousse in a cleaner, simpler layout. Transfer of the English wiki
should be simple and quick, and will get rid of much of the server
load. Each of the remaining ones can be transferred on at a time,
using DNS, which will be fine because they can run on both servers
while the DNS propogates without any problem (that probably wouldn't
work as well for the English one).

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


list: wikien-l

from_name: koyaanis qatsi

subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Admin nominations

body:
Just a note seconding

User:Hephaestos
User:The Anome
User:Someone_else
User:GrahamN

I'm not familiar with the other names mav mentioned,
sorry.

kq

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from_name: Zoe

subject: [WikiEN-l] Zxcvb is Lir

body:
Please explain how posting speculation is "facts".

Zoe

--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Adam probably thinks that an encyclopedia should
> have
> facts laid out as such, not just vague guesses. It's
> understandable (although I don't agree with it) to
> present speculation as fact to mask uncertainty.
> Certainly other websites do it.
>
> LittleDan
>
> --- Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Dan,
> >
> > Even before he created the current userid, he was
> > causing trouble at [[Lynne Thigpen]] and
> [[Talk:Lynne
> > Thigpen]], trying to force us to accept a cause of
> > death which has yet to be proven.  Everyone except
> > Adam/Lir/Vera wanted to wait until the autopsy
> > results, but he demanded that we put that she had
> > died
> > of a heart attack.  Reversions did no good.
> >
> > Zoe
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Switching over to Larousse

body:
> (Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>):
> Right now, all wikis are served from the same IP address on the
> same machine.  If we swap IP addresses, all wikis are served from
> the same IP address, but now they're all on the other machine. That
> means we must make provisions to serve all phase 3 wikis on the new
> machine immediately upon making the switch.

You're right--switching IPs means we have to pre-install all the
international wikis on Larousse. That would require leaving them
read-only for probably a longer period of time than we'd like.

> If, instead, we adjust the DNS, we can individually move each wiki
> to the new server one at a time or in a bunch, but need to make
> provisions for each one that we switch to leave the old machine in a
> non-dangerous state for that wiki while the change propogates (which
> will be reduced by dropping the TTL ahead of time).

That's probably simpler.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Kingturtle is now a sysop

body:
As per previous discussion, I have assigned sysop rights to
User:Kingturtle, where there were no objections (thanks to Brion for
giving me dev access). I will continue to handle sysop requests as they
come in on wikien-l.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Ahem, well.

body:
Jimbo write re: 172
> So, he's a sysop now

Well, he wasn't yet. But now he is. Let's keep an eye on him, folks.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Daniel Mayer

subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin nominations

body:
Danny wrote:
>I would like to nominate Slrubenstein as a
>sysop. He has consistently done excellent
>work for over a year.

I second that. So far these users have been nominated and seconded (most have
also been "seconded" by more than a few other people):

User:Slrubenstein
User:CatherineMunro
User:Hephaestos
User:The Anome
User:Someone_else
User:GrahamN

I'm going to try to get their consent now.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: John R. Owens

subject: [Wikitech-l] Kernel config

body:
On Mon, 12 May 2003, Thomas Luft wrote:

> Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:49:51 +0200
> From: Thomas Luft <tluft at web.de>
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Kernel config
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am not that firm in kernel configuration and the effect to the system
> (memory usage etc.). But reading the .config file it seems there is a
> lot of stuff compiled in the server kernel which is not needed?!
>
> brion at pliny.wikipedia.org wrote:
<commentary snipped for brevity>
>
> >CONFIG_MODULES=y
> >CONFIG_MODVERSIONS=y
> >CONFIG_KMOD=y
>
> >CONFIG_ISA=y
>
> >CONFIG_HOTPLUG=y
>
> >CONFIG_PCMCIA=y
> >CONFIG_CARDBUS=y
>
> >CONFIG_NETFILTER=y
>
> >CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD640=y
>
> >CONFIG_PIIX_TUNING=y
>
> >CONFIG_NET_PCMCIA=y
>
> >CONFIG_PCMCIA_PCNET=y
>
> Again, I am no kernel wizard, but maybe this helps giving Wikipedia even
> more speed on the new server.

I would add to the list of features we could probably do without:

CONFIG_PM=y

	does *.wikipedia.org ever go into power-saving mode? Unless it's
for blanking a terminal screen attached to it, if there is one.

CONFIG_BLK_DEV_RZ1000=y

	unless the host actually uses this chipset

CONFIG_BLK_DEV_PIIX=y
CONFIG_PIIX_TUNING=y

	I KNOW it isn't a PII or other Pentium

CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDE_MODES=y

CONFIG_SCSI_AIC7XXX=y
CONFIG_AIC7XXX_CMDS_PER_DEVICE=253
CONFIG_AIC7XXX_RESET_DELAY_MS=15000

	I think this was the default SCSI controller, I know I also found
SYM53C8XX added.

I would favour keeping the module support, though. Otherwise, yeah, what
Thomas said.

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves.
Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.
                                                    --- Lazarus Long


subject: [WikiEN-l] Someone else agrees to be an Admin

body:
User:Someone else has bee nominated, seconded and consents. Make it so!

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Someone_else

---mav


from_name: tarquin

subject: [Wikitech-l] interlanguage links

body:
Brion Vibber wrote:

>On Mon, 12 May 2003, Andre Engels wrote:
>
>
>>Some time ago, there was some discussion about a new form to put the
>>interlanguage links in. Is anything happening
>>on this front at the moment?
>>
>>
>
>Not at the moment. The code's still there (see SpecialIntl.php etc), if
>anyone wants to work on cleaning it up and making it production-ready that
>would be great.
>
>
>
A quick fix in the meantime would be nice!
http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-May/003727.html


subject: [WikiEN-l] Introducing WikiMoney

body:
LittleDan-
>  I think most people wouldn't care enough to get a wikismile. Since it can't
> be used for anything outside of Wikipedia (well, *theoretically* it can) it
> is already worthless.

So you think everything done within Wikipedia is worthless?

Of course you don't. If you earn WikiWishes, you can use them to motivate
others to take on tasks which you yourself do not want to or cannot
complete. This may sound silly, but it only works if people believe in it
-- if they don't, nobody will be motivated to earn WikiWishes, which means
that they won't have new wishes to spend, and so forth.

I still think that the initial W$ amount is too high. If we had limited
the amount to 10-20, and explicitly declared W$ indivisible, people would
be much more motivated to earn it because they would feel "poor".  Right
now, everybody has their pockets full, and nobody thinks they need to make
more because they can make plenty of offers with 100 W$. In a way, we
already have WishInflation, even though we haven't really started using
them yet ..

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Thomas Luft

subject: [Wikitech-l] Kernel config

body:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi everyone,

I am not that firm in kernel configuration and the effect to the system
(memory usage etc.). But reading the .config file it seems there is a
lot of stuff compiled in the server kernel which is not needed?!

brion at pliny.wikipedia.org wrote:

>CONFIG_MODULES=y
>CONFIG_MODVERSIONS=y
>CONFIG_KMOD=y

Does Wikipedia need to use modules? Don't know if this will give some
more speed but at least for security reasons I wouldn't use them (yes, I
am a little bit paranoic ;-)

>CONFIG_ISA=y

I don't think there is an ISA card in the server?

>CONFIG_HOTPLUG=y

Is this to change a disk on the fly? Otherwise I would not enable
hot-plugging

>CONFIG_PCMCIA=y
>CONFIG_CARDBUS=y

Does the server really use PCMCIA?

>CONFIG_NETFILTER=y

Will the server do anything with iptables? NAT?

>CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD640=y

Not useful on an AMD system

>CONFIG_PIIX_TUNING=y

Dito

>CONFIG_NET_PCMCIA=y

>CONFIG_PCMCIA_PCNET=y

As above, don't think PCMCIA is used.

Again, I am no kernel wizard, but maybe this helps giving Wikipedia even
more speed on the new server.
Regards

Thomas aka Urbanus
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from_name: Hunter Peress

subject: [Wikitech-l] Kernel config

body:
reducing these options will maybe shave a couple hundred k of the size of the kernel image.

triming down a kernel does not make it faster, it might save you 4 microseconds at boot time...
There is *NO* good reason to recompile kernels unless you have to.

__________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: daniwo59 at aol.com

subject: [WikiEN-l] Slr for sysop nomination

body:
I would like to nominate Slrubenstein as a sysop. He has consistently done
excellent work for over a year.

Danny
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from_name: Anthere

subject: [Wikitech-l] interlanguage links

body:
--- tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com> wrote:
>
>
> Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 12 May 2003, Andre Engels wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Some time ago, there was some discussion about a
> new form to put the
> >>interlanguage links in. Is anything happening
> >>on this front at the moment?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Not at the moment. The code's still there (see
> SpecialIntl.php etc), if
> >anyone wants to work on cleaning it up and making
> it production-ready that
> >would be great.
> >
> >
> >
> A quick fix in the meantime would be nice!
>
http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-May/003727.html

and again, as mentionned here
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_solution_for_interlanguage_links

seconded

__________________________________
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http://search.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
Erik wrote:
>Since everybody is nominating new sysops, I'd like to
>nominate James Duffy (Jtdirl), who is one of the most
>dedicated Wikipedians around. He has made tremendous
>contributions to dozens of articles, and I'm sure he would use
>these privileges responsibly.

I second the nomination with a caveat; The reason he wasn't part of my short
list before is that I feared he might get burnt-out with the added sense of
responsibility (so if you feel this may be the case JT, then please don't
accept this nomination - losing you would be a great loss to the project).

He also reminds me a lot of myself a year ago when I was a bit of a hot head
(perhaps an understatement) and such a major Wikiholic that it was adversely
affecting my real life. But he, like me, seems to be improving.

And I always like to see in a person a desire to improve their interpersonal
demeanor. So even though JT blows a gasket or two a bit more often than the
average long-time user, I do see a trend towards improvement and I definitely
see a true desire in him to make Wikipedia the best reference source on the
Internet (all without the hint of a personal agenda).

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: John Robinson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin status

body:
Sure, I'll accept; I'm flattered.  :-)  I doubt I'll be spending a lot
of time adminning though, and would appreciate it if some seasoned
hands can show me the ropes.  But I guess the more the better.

-Hephaestos


subject: [WikiEN-l] Introducing WikiMoney

body:
--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  I think most people wouldn't care enough to get a
> wikismile. Since it can't be used for anything
> outside of Wikipedia (well, *theoretically* it can)
> it is already worthless.

Then, I will stay "rich".
If I ever meet someone I gave some wikismile in wiki,
I will give her or him a realsmile on top of it.

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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


from_name: Brion Vibber

subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
On Mon, 2003-05-12 at 21:45, steven l. rubenstein wrote:
> I have been having some problems that I do not understand -- I assume some
> people here are more experienced and knowledgeable about the technical
> workings of Wikipedia to figure it out.
>
> I recently made an addition to the Supernaturalization talk page.  I also
> made a comment on the Supernatural talk page.  When I looked at my own
> "user contribution" page, next to the list of these most recent
> contributions was the word "rollback."

A 'rollback' link is displayed to sysops when viewing a contribs page
for each edit which is the most recent edit to that article. Clicking it
'rolls back' the article, restoring the most recent edit by someone
other than the last editor.

This is a standard sysop feature; it's meant as a handier way for
undoing mass vandal attacks than click/history/click/edit/save.

> I went back to the articles and as "most recent changes" it had a deletion
> of the comments I added, and the user credited for the deletion was me,
> with the comments "reverted to last edit by Jackerie27" and "reverted to
> last edit by Mkmcconn.

You clicked the 'rollback' link.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] JohnQ / MaryMary - the clitoris guy

body:
--- "John R. Owens" <jowens.wiki at ghiapet.homeip.net>
wrote:
> On Sun, 11 May 2003, tarquin wrote:
>
> > Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 10:23:45 +0100
> > From: tarquin <tarquin at planetunreal.com>
> > Subject: [WikiEN-l] JohnQ / MaryMary - the
> clitoris guy
> >
> > if he posts tomorrow -- could a dev grab his IP
> and trace it?
> > He's mentioned somewhere that he works for one of
> the big four.
> >
> > might be interesting to inform his employer what
> he gets up to during
> > work hours.
>
> Not that I have any fondness for "the photo troll",
> but that wouldn't
> really be much of "during work hours", especially if
> he's on the East
> Coast (I'm assuming he's American here, if anyone
> else wants to claim him
> feel free!); his first edit this weekend was the
> RIAA at 20:40 UTC Friday,
> 16:40 EDT, and the Clitoris.jpg stuff didn't get
> started until 21:17 UTC,
> 17:17 EDT. And even someone as troll-hating as
> myself doesn't want to go
> making reports to one's employer.

Hummm

THIS IS A WARNING
PLEASE, DON'T OPEN IF SENSIBLE TO EDUCATIONAL MATERIAL

Any spanish speaker to tell us whether this is free of
copyright or not ???

http://www.geocities.com/genitales2000/

the top right image is John image

I think this is an encyclopedic article with pictures
and drawings. Just need to put the images in media
link rather than image link with a warning.

Alvaro's courtesy

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from_name: steven l. rubenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
Hi,

I just got a message from Mav that I've been nominated for Wikipedia
Administrator.  Given that Mav communicated the message in a flattering
way, and that the invitation (which I understand is being made to some
others) reflects a sense that there is some need for additional
administrators, I can't see how I could say no.  So, thanks, and of course,
yes.

I understand that being an administrator is not such a big deal, but any
increase in access must also involve an increase in responsibility.  If any
of you have any particular advice about things I should be attentive to,
feel free to share it with me.  Needless to say I am not going to do
anything as an administrator unilaterally, but I assume that the point of
having more administrators is to help share whatever work is involved.

In the meantime, I will review various guidelines and policies -- and
you've finally gotten me to join Wikien-l!

Steve

Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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from_name: cprompt

subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
The best advice I could give is to pretend you're not a sysop. Even
though it's "no big deal", it can still get to your head. Oh, and I
triple your nomination. From what I've seen on the [[History of the
Soviet Union]] article, you've been very tactful and have done well for
the article.

steven l. rubenstein wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just got a message from Mav that I've been nominated for Wikipedia
> Administrator.  Given that Mav communicated the message in a
> flattering way, and that the invitation (which I understand is being
> made to some others) reflects a sense that there is some need for
> additional administrators, I can't see how I could say no.  So,
> thanks, and of course, yes.
>
> I understand that being an administrator is not such a big deal, but
> any increase in access must also involve an increase in
> responsibility.  If any of you have any particular advice about things
> I should be attentive to, feel free to share it with me.  Needless to
> say I am not going to do anything as an administrator unilaterally,
> but I assume that the point of having more administrators is to help
> share whatever work is involved.
>
> In the meantime, I will review various guidelines and policies -- and
> you've finally gotten me to join Wikien-l!
>
> Steve
>
> Steven L. Rubenstein
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Sociology and Anthropology
> Bentley Annex
> Ohio University
> Athens, Ohio 45701
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
double thanks.  Although there have been some times when my impatience or
irritation got the best of me on talk pages, it has always been the
egalitarian and ultimately anonymous nature of Wikipedia that appealed to
me, so I am not too worried about being a sysop going to my head.  Plus, I
know if it ever does several people will get on my case about it immediately!

S

At 11:55 PM 5/12/2003 -0400, you wrote:

>The best advice I could give is to pretend you're not a sysop. Even though
>it's "no big deal", it can still get to your head. Oh, and I triple your
>nomination. From what I've seen on the [[History of the Soviet Union]]
>article, you've been very tactful and have done well for the article.
>
>steven l. rubenstein wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I just got a message from Mav that I've been nominated for Wikipedia
>>Administrator.  Given that Mav communicated the message in a flattering
>>way, and that the invitation (which I understand is being made to some
>>others) reflects a sense that there is some need for additional
>>administrators, I can't see how I could say no.  So, thanks, and of
>>course, yes.
>>
>>I understand that being an administrator is not such a big deal, but any
>>increase in access must also involve an increase in responsibility.  If
>>any of you have any particular advice about things I should be attentive
>>to, feel free to share it with me.  Needless to say I am not going to do
>>anything as an administrator unilaterally, but I assume that the point of
>>having more administrators is to help share whatever work is involved.
>>
>>In the meantime, I will review various guidelines and policies -- and
>>you've finally gotten me to join Wikien-l!
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>Steven L. Rubenstein
>>Assistant Professor
>>Department of Sociology and Anthropology
>>Bentley Annex
>>Ohio University
>>Athens, Ohio 45701
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
>
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Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Slrubenstein is now a sysop

body:
hmmmm.  One day I may be tempted to change my user name to Lir!

Alas, that will probably happen long after people have forgotten about
those fun days ;)

S

At 06:04 AM 5/13/2003 +0200, you wrote:

>Maybe I should just run
>
>UPDATE user set user_rights="sysop" where user_name<>"Lir";
>
>;-)
>
>Regards,
>
>Erik
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
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Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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list: wikipedia-l

from_name: Merphant

subject: [Wikipedia-l] Wiktionary proposal to Princeton WordNet project

body:
A few of us have drafted a letter to Princeton's cognitive science
department, asking permission to use data from their WordNet project in
Wiktionary. We think it's ready to send:

http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary%3APrinceton_wordnet

My question is, who should send it? Jimbo, I guess, but it looks like
he's on vacation right now. Maybe whoever sends it should just put the
wikpedia-l address in the From: header, so everyone can read their
response and/or questions, etc. Comments?

Merphant


subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin nominations: The Anome accepts

body:
Make it so!
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome

-- mav


subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
I have been having some problems that I do not understand -- I assume some
people here are more experienced and knowledgeable about the technical
workings of Wikipedia to figure it out.

I recently made an addition to the Supernaturalization talk page.  I also
made a comment on the Supernatural talk page.  When I looked at my own
"user contribution" page, next to the list of these most recent
contributions was the word "rollback."

I went back to the articles and as "most recent changes" it had a deletion
of the comments I added, and the user credited for the deletion was me,
with the comments "reverted to last edit by Jackerie27" and "reverted to
last edit by Mkmcconn.

I did not make these changes that are being ascribed to me, and I hope no
one else is reverting them.  It certainly seems strange that what I add to
pages now seems to be deleted automatically, and I am being labeled the
deleter.  Is HAL 9000 acting up again?

Steve

Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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subject: [WikiEN-l] hypothesis

body:
is it possible that instead of being made a sysop, I have been banned?  I
was just kidding about changing my name to Lir!
S

Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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from_name: Jason Richey

subject: [Wikitech-l] Switching over to Larousse

body:
Sounds reasonable...  The TTL should be set to 1 Hour now.  Let me know
if that is not the case.  I'm ready to make the DNS switch whenever,
jus let me know.

Jason

Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

> > (Brion Vibber <vibber at aludra.usc.edu>):
> > Right now, all wikis are served from the same IP address on the
> > same machine.  If we swap IP addresses, all wikis are served from
> > the same IP address, but now they're all on the other machine. That
> > means we must make provisions to serve all phase 3 wikis on the new
> > machine immediately upon making the switch.
>
> You're right--switching IPs means we have to pre-install all the
> international wikis on Larousse. That would require leaving them
> read-only for probably a longer period of time than we'd like.
>
> > If, instead, we adjust the DNS, we can individually move each wiki
> > to the new server one at a time or in a bunch, but need to make
> > provisions for each one that we switch to leave the old machine in a
> > non-dangerous state for that wiki while the change propogates (which
> > will be reduced by dropping the TTL ahead of time).
>
> That's probably simpler.
>
> --
> Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
> "All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
> are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
> for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
Well, this is embarrassing!  I guess if I had to shoot someone in the foot
with my newfound powers, it's best I shot myself.  (still, I could have
sworn that the other times it happened, I hadn't hit "rollback").

Thanks for the explanations, and patience,

S

At 07:09 AM 5/13/2003 +0200, you wrote:

>Steve-
> > I did not make these changes that are being ascribed to me, and I hope no
> > one else is reverting them.  It certainly seems strange that what I add to
> > pages now seems to be deleted automatically, and I am being labeled the
> > deleter.  Is HAL 9000 acting up again?
>
>These are your sysop powers at work :-). Sysop have the ability to go into
>any user's contribution list, including their own, and "roll back" any
>user's edit of an article, so long as it is the most recent edit to that
>article (which the "top" marker refers to).
>
>You have accidentally rolled back your own contribution to a previous
>revision. Don't worry, the rollback is only a shortcut to editing the
>previous version and saving it, so no data has been lost. Just edit the
>previous version and save it.
>
>Regards,
>
>Erik
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.478 / Virus Database: 275 - Release Date: 5/6/2003

Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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from_name: Ray Saintonge

subject: [WikiEN-l] Introducing WikiMoney

body:
Anthere wrote:

>--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I think most people wouldn't care enough to get a
>>wikismile. Since it can't be used for anything
>>outside of Wikipedia (well, *theoretically* it can)
>>it is already worthless.
>>
>
>Then, I will stay "rich".
>If I ever meet someone I gave some wikismile in wiki,
>I will give her or him a realsmile on top of it.
>
Now it's starting to sound like the Freemasons (Franc-ma?ons) with their
secret handshakes. :-)

Ec


from_name: Oliver Pereira

subject: [WikiEN-l] Zxcvb is Lir

body:
On Mon, 12 May 2003, Zoe wrote:

> Please explain how posting speculation is "facts".

Easy. By attributing the speculation to its source.

Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons] did, for a while, make the mistake of thinking that the IMDb
was a reliable source of information, but I think this is understandable,
since it is a common belief. When its unreliability was pointed out, he
attributed the claims about the cause of death to its sources. His last
attempt to work on the paragraph the other night was as follows:-

"She died, unexpectedly, in [[Los Angeles, California]].  Although, the
[[cause of death]] has not been officially determined, several sources
(not including the [[LA Times]]; but, including the [[IMDB]] and the
[[Buffalo News]]) have reported that this was a [[heart attack]]."

That is not trying to force you to accept anything; it is merely reporting
what other sources have said. Which is precisely what we are encouraged to
do when there is disagreement about something. I would hardly call this
"causing trouble" (in your words), and neither is it trying to "present
speculation as fact to mask uncertainty" (in the words of Mr. Ehrenberg).
I find it hard to see it as anything other than a genuine (albeit perhaps
misguided) attempt to make the article more informative.

Oliver

+-------------------------------------------+
| Oliver Pereira                            |
| Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science |
| University of Southampton                 |
| omp199 at ecs.soton.ac.uk                    |
+-------------------------------------------+


subject: [Wikitech-l] error on searching

in_reply_to: <1052681042.24530.4.camel@frank.vibber.org>; from brion@pobox.com on Sun, May 11, 2003 at 12:24:03PM -0700

body:
Sounds good...  Also sounds somewhat forgettable, so apologies ahead
of time if I forget.

Just curious:  Why don't we use the /etc/rc.d/init.d scripts for
startup and shutdown of apache and mysql?  apachectl itself can be
used as an init.d init script, and I imagine that the mysql
distribution came with one as well.

Jason

Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 09:23, Kurt Jansson wrote:
> > I'm getting this error message in the German Wikipedia:
> >...
> > aus der Funktion "SearchEngine::showResults". MySQL meldete den Fehler
> > "1016: Can't open file: 'searchindex.MYI'. (errno: 145)".
>
> Hmm, I'll run a REPAIR TABLES again...
>
> Jason, I'm wondering if MySQL is getting shut down properly on reboot;
> it's conceivable that that could corrupt the index files.
>
> Next time you reboot it (when not crashed ;) try running a
> "mysqladmin -u root -p shutdown" before shutting the machine down. If
> that doesn't help, it's probably some weirdness with the MySQL 4
> upgrade.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
steven l. rubenstein wrote:

> I have been having some problems that I do not understand -- I assume
> some people here are more experienced and knowledgeable about the
> technical workings of Wikipedia to figure it out.
>
> I recently made an addition to the Supernaturalization talk page.  I
> also made a comment on the Supernatural talk page.  When I looked at
> my own "user contribution" page, next to the list of these most recent
> contributions was the word "rollback."
>
> I went back to the articles and as "most recent changes" it had a
> deletion of the comments I added, and the user credited for the
> deletion was me, with the comments "reverted to last edit by
> Jackerie27" and "reverted to last edit by Mkmcconn.
>
> I did not make these changes that are being ascribed to me, and I hope
> no one else is reverting them.  It certainly seems strange that what I
> add to pages now seems to be deleted automatically, and I am being
> labeled the deleter.  Is HAL 9000 acting up again?

I've had a couple of strange problems come up recently too

1. In editing the [[republic]] article I chose to split out a small note
about Republic Aviation Company to its own stub.  When I put the
material I put the name of the company in bold.  When I saved I received
the message about there being no text on that page.  In edit mode the
text popped bnck up.  I added the word "The" at the beginning of the
article, and it saved just find.  Apparently the system was in its own
way rejecting an article that began with three apostrophes.

2. While doing some editing in Wiktionary moving one of the Intelingua
index articles I created a non-eixtent article.  It appears that when  I
moved the article I inadvertently entered a blank space at the beginning
of the article.  See Fonzy's talk page on Wiktionary for more details.

As for Steve's wanting to take on Lir's name, or being mistaken for him,
it is worth noting that "lir" and "slr" already have two letters in
common in their names.  He's 2/3 of the way there! :-)

Ec


subject: [WikiEN-l] Minesweeper is now a sysop

body:
As per general approval, Minesweeper is now a sysop.

(I intend to keep sending one message per approved sysop request so as to
make searching and responding easier. Please let me know if it annoys
you.)

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin nominations

body:
Mav-
> OK, the list of users below have been nominated for
> Adminhood and seconded. Now all we need is their
> consent to become sysops. To get this I'm going to
> place a note on their talk pages explaining the
> situation and asking them to add their consent. Should
> this consent be in the form of a response on their
> talk page or does it have to be placed by them onto
> WikiEN-L (thus we getting them to sign-up to this
> mailing list)?

I have no preferences as long as someone I trust (hint: you ;-) posts the
consent to the list. However, it may be good if all sysops keep an eye on
wikien-l, so as to be able to react quickly in case of emergencies,
whatever they may be.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] 172's sysop request and some random thoughts

body:
Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Note to Abe Sokolov (aka 172)

And I also found it odd that you
wanted to be an Admin so badly even though, in my experience, you haven't
done much Wikipedia Weeding or had a desire to edit protected pages.

------------------

It is interesting (hum...who said what about that expression ?) you give (among other arguments of course :-)) as a poor justification for asking to be a sysop the fact 172 did not commonly ask to edit protected pages. I think it is a bad argument for not granting sysophood. Reading your comment, I reflected I long gave up the idea of having any impacts on the content of protected pages. I just avoir looking at them (I never look at the main page now), I consider I have no real right to edit them for each time the process required is to beg and convince someone to do it for me. Which I consider bad for a wiki.

Curious, but I miss Ed here.

Some time ago, he led a nice description of the different levels held by users in wikipedia.

I think these descriptions are changing or will change soon.

Imho, before, a sysop was a super user. Ie, someone who had super powers. The "normal" state (the regular user) being enough to work without much trouble, to give his opinion, and to generally participate in the decision making process. Usually super powers are restricted to a small class of people.

Now, I think that if most people are upgraded to the sysop status, the regular (standard) status will becomes the sysop status.

Ultimately, the only ones left in the simple user status will be a couple of weird people, questionables editors (per sysops estimate), newbies, trolls and vandals. Which probably means there will be more "bad" or "said bad" edits by simple users. Further instoring in every one mind that simple users have a low-trust status.

On one hand, it is quite good there are more sysops, for it could mean more balance ("could").

On the other hand, the simple user really get a lower-status, and I fear it will very soon have a very strong smell of "not to be trusted" by default.

I think a simple user will little by little see his own abilities to participate in the decision process shrink (potential e.g. very annoying users pages and talk pages being protected).

But right, some could argue that someone willing to participate in the decision process could ask to be a sysop.

Going back to what is basically the role of an simple user : editing then...

I also think the editing moves of a simple user are also slowly being restricted and misconsidered, because of a growing bureaucracy on the english wiki.

"Trust me", french people are very accutely aware of bureaucracy when it begins to plague a process :-))))

More often than not, when I have a problem on the english wikipedia, either I just drop it by anticipated tiredness, or I feel like entering a french social security administration building (incidently, my whole country is on strike today on retirement issues...well, except me of course :-))

For so many barely interesting issues, a simple user needs to find the proper page, read all the rules and guidelines beforehand (not knowing the rules is an offense), check if the page is protected (if so, head for someone to unprotect it, justify your request for unprotection), head for the talk page, check if the talk page is not too long (if so, head for someone to clean it), add your request, wait, justify, wait, justify, wait, justify, wait...head for the pump (ask someone to clean it before), try to raise someone interest to make the sysop act for you, wait, justify again, head for the mailing list..., maybe propose a wikismile for the action (what ! bribing !)

At this point, either you are labelled "heavy" or you drop the topic.

And each time I am heading for one of these processes, when I see a sysop just do it in a couple of seconds without having to justify anything to anyone, I am accutely aware a simple user is a lower-user, with less editing rights than others and with less trust, even if it just relies on a little flag somewhere. And I wonder over little flag importance over just common sense.

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subject: [Wikitech-l] Switching over to Larousse

body:
On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 00:57, Jason Richey wrote:
> Sounds reasonable...  The TTL should be set to 1 Hour now.  Let me know
> if that is not the case.  I'm ready to make the DNS switch whenever,
> jus let me know.

Cool...

There's a period of lighter traffic on the English wiki about 4:00-13:00
UTC, lowest point at 10:00 (3am here in sunny California). Ironically
this is when the European traffic peaks. ;) It might be best to make the
switch around 4:00-5:00 (11pm-midnight pacific), giving us a few extra
hours of lighter traffic to work with if we screw things up.

When it comes time to move the euro wikis, there's virtual dead time
from about midnight-5:00 am (5-10pm pacific time).

See exciting graphs:
http://www.wikipedia.org/stats/hourly_usage_200305.png
http://de.wikipedia.org/stats/hourly_usage_200305.png

If there's no objection, how about we plan to switch www.wikipedia.org
to larousse tomorrow (tuesday night/wednesday morning)?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 01:50, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> 1. In editing the [[republic]] article I chose to split out a small note
> about Republic Aviation Company to its own stub.  When I put the
> material I put the name of the company in bold.  When I saved I received
> the message about there being no text on that page.  In edit mode the
> text popped bnck up.  I added the word "The" at the beginning of the
> article, and it saved just find.

I've been hearing a number of complaints recently about similar behavior
(not properly reloading after saves, in particular). This sounds related
to client-side caching; in particular those using proxy caches or whose
internet providers force proxy caches upon them seem affected. There may
be a difference in how the cache control headers are sent due to a
recent PHP upgrade, but I haven't had a chance to check for sure yet.

> 2. While doing some editing in Wiktionary moving one of the Intelingua
> index articles I created a non-eixtent article.  It appears that when  I
> moved the article I inadvertently entered a blank space at the beginning
> of the article.  See Fonzy's talk page on Wiktionary for more details.

Man, I don't know what's going on there. I'll look at it again when I'm
not sleep-deprived. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Tony Wilson

subject: [WikiEN-l] Seconding The Anome & Someone_else

body:
I second Mav's nomination of The Anome & Someone_else.

(Sorry, CatherineMunro & Hephaestos, I'm not really familiar with your
work. Git my nose buried in the fauna articles again, I guess.)

Tony Wilson
(Tannin)


subject: [WikiEN-l] Duh ---  ignore my previous post

body:
I should go to bed. I'm not even *reading* Mav's last post right. These
people are already seconded. The lord only knows how much sense I'm
making when I try to *write* something. Sorry people.

Tony Wilson
(Tannin)


from_name: Erik Moeller

subject: [WikiEN-l] Hephaestos and Someone else are now sysops

body:
As per Mav's mail.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: Daniel Ehrenberg

subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
That happened to me once too, but I don't have a proxy (unless my ISP has one for some reason).

Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com> wrote:On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 01:50, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> 1. In editing the [[republic]] article I chose to split out a small note
> about Republic Aviation Company to its own stub. When I put the
> material I put the name of the company in bold. When I saved I received
> the message about there being no text on that page. In edit mode the
> text popped bnck up. I added the word "The" at the beginning of the
> article, and it saved just find.

I've been hearing a number of complaints recently about similar behavior
(not properly reloading after saves, in particular). This sounds related
to client-side caching; in particular those using proxy caches or whose
internet providers force proxy caches upon them seem affected. There may
be a difference in how the cache control headers are sent due to a
recent PHP upgrade, but I haven't had a chance to check for sure yet.

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body:
I don't think we should have an actual photograph in this case. Just think what would be acceptable in schools (actually, a lot of wikipedia probably wouldn't be acceptable in schools, like its lack of "drugs are evil" stance, but this is much worse). I don't think photographs of genitalia belong in an encyclopedia, no matter how informative. Drawings would be a much better alternative.

sannse <sannse at delphiforums.com> wrote:If they are copyright free (which would surprise me) a couple of them may be
better choices than John's version. The left side images on the bottom two
rows are informative without having the same "porn-like" feel of the earlier
images. As Anthere said, they would still need to be linked with a warning
rather than immediately visible. Personally I would still prefer a drawing,
mostly for aesthetic reasons but also because I believe a drawing can be
more informative in some situations.

Regards

sannse

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Slrubenstein is now a sysop

body:
Come to think of it, what server queries are non-developers allowed to do? I know it's read-only queries, but how can I format the queries to find information?

Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de> wrote:Maybe I should just run

UPDATE user set user_rights="sysop" where user_name<>"Lir";

;-)

Regards,

Erik
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Slrubenstein is now a sysop

body:
Maybe I should just run

UPDATE user set user_rights="sysop" where user_name<>"Lir";

;-)

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
Since everybody is nominating new sysops, I'd like to nominate James Duffy
(Jtdirl), who is one of the most dedicated Wikipedians around. He has made
tremendous contributions to dozens of articles, and I'm sure he would use
these privileges responsibly.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin nominations

body:
oh, I thought Someone else, Slrubestien, and Hephestos already were sysops. As long as we're nominating people, I nominate User:Alex756. He's been a great contributer to wikipedia.

Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:Danny wrote:
>I would like to nominate Slrubenstein as a
>sysop. He has consistently done excellent
>work for over a year.

I second that. So far these users have been nominated and seconded (most have
also been "seconded" by more than a few other people):

User:Slrubenstein
User:CatherineMunro
User:Hephaestos
User:The Anome
User:Someone_else
User:GrahamN

I'm going to try to get their consent now.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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subject: [WikiEN-l] Zxcvb is Lir

body:
Zoe, you seem to have a hard time deciphering other's trains of thought. I just mean he probably wanted to be definitive and present opinions as if they were facts. Now, I know you really hate Lir, but she follows logical thought patterns like the rest of us.

Zoe <zoecomnena at yahoo.com> wrote:
Please explain how posting speculation is "facts".

Zoe

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subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
Steve-
> I did not make these changes that are being ascribed to me, and I hope no
> one else is reverting them.  It certainly seems strange that what I add to
> pages now seems to be deleted automatically, and I am being labeled the
> deleter.  Is HAL 9000 acting up again?

These are your sysop powers at work :-). Sysop have the ability to go into
any user's contribution list, including their own, and "roll back" any
user's edit of an article, so long as it is the most recent edit to that
article (which the "top" marker refers to).

You have accidentally rolled back your own contribution to a previous
revision. Don't worry, the rollback is only a shortcut to editing the
previous version and saving it, so no data has been lost. Just edit the
previous version and save it.

Regards,

Erik


from_name: sannse

body:
***Adding to the warning - the link goes to a page of photos of genitalia***

> Hummm
>
> THIS IS A WARNING
> PLEASE, DON'T OPEN IF SENSIBLE TO EDUCATIONAL MATERIAL
>
> Any spanish speaker to tell us whether this is free of
> copyright or not ???
>
> http://www.geocities.com/genitales2000/
>
> the top right image is John image
>
> I think this is an encyclopedic article with pictures
> and drawings. Just need to put the images in media
> link rather than image link with a warning.
>
> Alvaro's courtesy

If they are copyright free (which would surprise me) a couple of them may be
better choices than John's version.  The left side images on the bottom two
rows are informative without having the same "porn-like" feel of the earlier
images.  As Anthere said, they would still need to be linked with a warning
rather than immediately visible.  Personally I would still prefer a drawing,
mostly for aesthetic reasons but also because I believe a drawing can be
more informative in some situations.

Regards

sannse


from_name: Fred Bauder

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
I oppose Jtdirl's nomination for the same reasons as Cunctator. Every
indication is that like 172 he will stongly engage both in historical
revisionism and abuse of other users.

Fred


subject: [Wikitech-l] Switching over to Larousse

body:
Okay...  So I'm looking at changing the DNS at 11:00 pm PDT tonight, right?

I'm just supposed to change anything that is pointing to
130.94.122.197 (except pliny.wikipedia.org) to point to
130.94.122.199, right?

Jason

Brion Vibber wrote:

> On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 00:57, Jason Richey wrote:
> > Sounds reasonable...  The TTL should be set to 1 Hour now.  Let me know
> > if that is not the case.  I'm ready to make the DNS switch whenever,
> > jus let me know.
>
> Cool...
>
> There's a period of lighter traffic on the English wiki about 4:00-13:00
> UTC, lowest point at 10:00 (3am here in sunny California). Ironically
> this is when the European traffic peaks. ;) It might be best to make the
> switch around 4:00-5:00 (11pm-midnight pacific), giving us a few extra
> hours of lighter traffic to work with if we screw things up.
>
> When it comes time to move the euro wikis, there's virtual dead time
> from about midnight-5:00 am (5-10pm pacific time).
>
> See exciting graphs:
> http://www.wikipedia.org/stats/hourly_usage_200305.png
> http://de.wikipedia.org/stats/hourly_usage_200305.png
>
> If there's no objection, how about we plan to switch www.wikipedia.org
> to larousse tomorrow (tuesday night/wednesday morning)?
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr at bomis.com>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Slrubenstein is now a sysop

body:
On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 05:57, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> Come to think of it, what server queries are non-developers allowed to
> do? I know it's read-only queries, but how can I format the queries to
> find information?

See some tips and tricks at
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_queries

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 05:39, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
> That happened to me once too, but I don't have a proxy (unless my ISP
> has one for some reason).

It's actually fairly common for ISPs to use transparent proxies to save
money by moving a lot of duplicate web traffic to their internal network
and thus reducing their Internet bandwidth usage.

You wouldn't even know it was there, unless of course it went horribly
wrong and started eating pages. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


subject: [WikiEN-l] The Anome is now a sysop

body:
As per his consent on his talk page and no objections in the last few
days.

Regards,

Erik


subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes & some trivia

body:
On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 06:18, Tony Wilson wrote:
> I'm quite sure that there is a difference Brion. It started about .. oh
> ... maybe it was three or four weeks ago? I cleared my browser caches,
> tried four or five different browsers, then cleared my caching firewall
> machine. It came right back as soon as the caches started to
> refill.Same deal on the office network (which runs a completely
> different OS and browsers but has the same sort of firewall). I am 100%
> sure that it didn't act this way in the past.

Tell you what; I'm going to add a user option to disable browser caching
for those who are having regular problems with it.

Hopefully it can be resolved "correctly", but that should help in the meantime.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: The Cunctator

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
On 5/13/03 12:48 AM, "Daniel Mayer" <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Erik wrote:
>> Since everybody is nominating new sysops, I'd like to
>> nominate James Duffy (Jtdirl), who is one of the most
>> dedicated Wikipedians around. He has made tremendous
>> contributions to dozens of articles, and I'm sure he would use
>> these privileges responsibly.
>
He also likes attacking people, takes things personally, and doesn't handle
disagreement gracefully.

I'm sure he would use these privileges responsibly.

1. The Cunctator turned up at the end, ignored all that had been said and
all that has been agreed and demands his is best.
2. I will ignore the arrogant and illinformed misrepresentation of political
theory and science. As someone knowledgeable in the area you know the facts.
The Cunctator patently obviously doesn't. --Jtdirl

>From Talk:Communist state May 11, 2003
Re The Cunctator: on a talk page tonight he let slip his real reason for his
behaviour. It isn't this page at all. He refuses to accept the manner in
which political scientists analyse questions. With monumental arrogance, he
believes that his way of throw everything into one article, no matter how
many problems he causes, is superior to the way used by academics, political
scientists, researchers, historians and people who do this sort of analysis
for a living. His edits here are simply part of pushing an agenda. The fact
that this page is organised in the standard manner of international research
bugs him, because our infallible all knowing Cunctator knows that everyone
else's way is wrong, the way by which one rights up research is all wrong,
because he knows best. The fact that he has a poor grasp of the facts and a
monumental ignorance of how academic research is done don't bug him because
he knows best and the entire academic world is going to have to do things
his 'superior' way. Jtdirl 02:48 May 11, 2003


from_name: Daniel Mayer

body:
Andrew Smith wrote:
>While we're nominating people for sysop-hood I'd like
>to nominate Anthere, from what I've seen she has been
>an excellent contributor. In light of the below I'm
>not sure if she'd accept but I think it would be
>polite to ask.

I second that.

--mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
tc wrote:
>Fred wrote:
>> I oppose Jtdirl's nomination for the same reasons
>> as Cunctator. Every indication is that like 172 he
>> will stongly engage both in historical
>> revisionism and abuse of other users.
>>
>I just want to make it clear I'm not opposing
>Jtdirl's nomination. I'm just betting he'll use the
>sysop powers abusively.

I happen to completely disagree for the reasons I've
noted but let's just drop it right now before
anybody's feelings get hurt.

--mav

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


subject: [Wikitech-l] Switching over to Larousse

body:
On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 09:57, Jason Richey wrote:
> Okay...  So I'm looking at changing the DNS at 11:00 pm PDT tonight, right?

Sounds good.

> I'm just supposed to change anything that is pointing to
> 130.94.122.197 (except pliny.wikipedia.org) to point to
> 130.94.122.199, right?

Just changing www.wikipedia.org (and perhaps en.wikipedia.org) should do
it. All the other languages will continue to sit on pliny for a couple
more days so if we have to backpedal the impact is minimized. :)

The by-default entry can stay at .197 for now, since anything going to
the English wiki on purpose should either be www., en., or a redirect.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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from_name: Stan Shebs

subject: [WikiEN-l] Mailing list weirdness / test message

body:
Hi, I've gotten about three msgs from wikien-l in the past three days,
and looking
at the archive, it seems there are about a hundred or so that I never
received.
I did switch over to Moz 1.3 on Sunday, so it's a suspect, although the
firehoses
of my 40-odd other mailing lists seem not to be affected.  The other
possibility is
changes to Apple's spam filtering, which could explain three messages
getting
through and not others.  Anybody have any thoughts, and could somebody
please
reply directly to shebs at apple.com to see if that makes it?  Thanks!

Stan


from_name: Anthere

body:
--- Andrew Smith <ams80 at cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> While we're nominating people for sysop-hood I'd
> like to nominate Anthere, from what I've seen she
> has been an excellent contributor. In light of the
> below I'm not sure if she'd accept but I think it
> would be polite to ask.

I thank you Andrew for that kindness. TC also
suggested that I asked 3 weeks ago. It was definitly
*not* something I wanted to be 3 weeks ago. For I
already have to help keeping clean two places.
But three weeks ago, a sysop was not was it is heading
to be in the near future.
So, I dunno.

Meanwhile, I thank *JohnOwens* very much for having
deleted my images, one of which was copyrighted.
I suggest the ''Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be
deleted'' to be rethought for it seems to have low
usability.

I am still hoping to have the last of the *very*
interesting redirections of Fat Budda made 3 weeks ago
deleted in time.

I must confess, this afternoon, I have been thinking
the deletion could be sped up if I added some
obscenities in these blank pages. It seems vandalised
pages are deleted within a day, to compare with weeks
in due process and unknown time for blanked pages.
Similarly, when I mess a redirect, and have to ask for
the old location to be deleted to make the move back,
it might be more efficient to vandalize the page to be
deleted rather than putting it in the vote for
deletion page perhaps ?

Of course, this was just a wild thought :-) I would
not do such a thing, would I ????
I am an extremely reasonable woman :-)

I think it could be interesting to read again

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worst_cases

I think there is an interesting item "Wiki Community
Size Inherently Limited"

When non-sysop users begins to dream to be sysop "just
for usability" for the processes are too heavy, too
slow, there is maybe need to think the processes again

just my two wiki smiles :-))))

-----

? is the plural of process processes ? maybe not ...?!?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


body:
On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 10:48, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> Andrew Smith wrote:
> >While we're nominating people for sysop-hood I'd like
> >to nominate Anthere, from what I've seen she has been
> >an excellent contributor. In light of the below I'm
> >not sure if she'd accept but I think it would be
> >polite to ask.
>
> I second that.

I thought she already was one... guess I was thinking of the francophone
wiki. I third that, then, if she's willing. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
They are correct with respect to Lir and his clones however. Lir must make
his peace with us in some other way than continuing to make clones.

Fred

> From: cprompt <cprompt at tmbg.org>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:20:04 -0400
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl
>
> I'm going to speak up too; I find that Jtdirl and 172 have very very
> similar behavior, and oppose Jtdirl's nomination on the same grounds as
> 172.
>
> I realize this is not something that most people are going to care
> about, now that Lir is considered the archetypal troll, but if you take
> a look at History of the Soviet Union's talk page, Susan Mason seemed
> very willing to discuss edits with Jtdirl and 172. Jtdirl and 172 told
> me that it was worthless to discuss things with Susan Mason, since they
> are an evil evil banned troll, etc. I said "Just humor me, outline
> what's wrong with Susan Mason's edits, and maybe we can work out a
> compromise". I received some notes on my talk page that I was being
> naive in thinking Susan Mason could cooperate and that everyone else
> learned long ago that everything that Susan Mason does should be
> reverted. Well, from the experiences of others, this sort of treatment
> doesn't seem to be reserved to people widely considered to be trolls.
>
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>> I oppose Jtdirl's nomination for the same reasons as Cunctator. Every
>> indication is that like 172 he will stongly engage both in historical
>> revisionism and abuse of other users.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


from_name: Lee Daniel Crocker

subject: [Wikitech-l] Switching over to Larousse

body:
> (Brion Vibber <brion at pobox.com>):
>
> If there's no objection, how about we plan to switch www.wikipedia.org
> to larousse tomorrow (tuesday night/wednesday morning)?

Sounds good to me.
--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
On 5/13/03 11:08 AM, "Fred Bauder" <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:

> I oppose Jtdirl's nomination for the same reasons as Cunctator. Every
> indication is that like 172 he will stongly engage both in historical
> revisionism and abuse of other users.
>
I just want to make it clear I'm not opposing Jtdirl's nomination. I'm just
betting he'll use the sysop powers abusively.


body:
> From: cprompt <cprompt at tmbg.org>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:55:58 -0400
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Lir and his clones  (Was: Re: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl)
>
> I've advised Lir in the past to stop making new accounts, apologize and
> ask the list for permission to return, and for guidance when he does
> something that makes people want to block him. He says that he's already
> done that, and he doesn't think that the list would respond well to
> that. So, what do you people think? If Lir came around and said all of
> that, how would you feel?

Hopeful

Fred


subject: [Wikitech-l] Switching over to Larousse

body:
> (Jason Richey <jasonr at bomis.com>):
> Okay...  So I'm looking at changing the DNS at 11:00 pm PDT tonight, right?
>
> I'm just supposed to change anything that is pointing to
> 130.94.122.197 (except pliny.wikipedia.org) to point to
> 130.94.122.199, right?

Just www. and en. (both .org and .com). The others will be moved
over probably in groups. Just plain "wikipedia.org/.com" should
probably point to larousse as well.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee at piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC


body:
All concerned parties, be advised of my article [[Peyronie disease]].

My view is that the Wikipedia should not contain pornography, but nudity
is okay. Some people may not be cool with the idea of looking at nudity,
but they have just as much right to not "Click here to see image
containing nudity" as they do to avoid other places where they'd see
nudity (Playboy, porno sites, etc.) Nudity is okay because it describes
how things really do look. Drawings should not be considered watered
down photos. They're good at showing some details that may not be
apparent in photographs. Photographs on the other hand, show reality. I
think both are perfectly acceptable. Understanding that certain people
are sensitive to seeing nudity, we should mask it behind a link. But we
are not making an encyclopedia specifically for grade schools, and we
are not making an encyclopedia for people who turn red at the site of
genitalia. Individuals need to exercise control of their viewing habits,
and schools and parents need to be aware of what children are surfing
to. That's just not our job.

Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

> I don't think we should have an actual photograph in this case. Just
> think what would be acceptable in schools (actually, a lot of
> wikipedia probably wouldn't be acceptable in schools, like its lack of
> "drugs are evil" stance, but this is much worse). I don't think
> photographs of genitalia belong in an encyclopedia, no matter how
> informative. Drawings would be a much better alternative.
>
> */sannse <sannse at delphiforums.com>/* wrote:
>
>     If they are copyright free (which would surprise me) a couple of
>     them may be
>     better choices than John's version. The left side images on the
>     bottom two
>     rows are informative without having the same "porn-like" feel of
>     the earlier
>     images. As Anthere said, they would still need to be linked with a
>     warning
>     rather than immediately visible. Personally I would still prefer a
>     drawing,
>     mostly for aesthetic reasons but also because I believe a drawing
>     can be
>     more informative in some situations.
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
Mav will straighten you out quickly should you deviate from Main page
policy. Charge ahead...

Of couse there are limits. Who ever heard of this guy?

Fred

> From: "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste at ohiou.edu>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:38:03 -0400
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)
>
> There is a new article on the death of John Savage, former premier of Nova
> Scotia.  When I saw the article, my first thought was that the actor John
> (or is it Jon?) Savage died.  Now an administrator, I suppose I am obliged
> to add the link to the main page under recent deaths.  Yet, I do not want
> to frighten fans of the actor.  Yet, we have the article, so maybe...
>
> Question: do we post the names of any person who has recently died, if we
> also have an article -- or are there limits.
>
> No disrespect to Canadians, of course.
>
> Steve
>
> Steven L. Rubenstein
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Sociology and Anthropology
> Bentley Annex
> Ohio University
> Athens, Ohio 45701
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.478 / Virus Database: 275 - Release Date: 5/6/2003
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Slrubenstein is now a sysop

body:
You can find the syntax of MySQL queries at
http://www.mysql.com/documentation/mysql/bychapter/index.html. That'll
tell you anything you need to know about MySQL, but a lot of it applies
to running your own server. Since it's read-only, have fun! Be careful
about running queries that will require a lot of processing though, that
slows down the site.

Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:

> Come to think of it, what server queries are non-developers allowed to
> do? I know it's read-only queries, but how can I format the queries to
> find information?
>
> */Erik Moeller <erik_moeller at gmx.de>/* wrote:
>
>     Maybe I should just run
>
>     UPDATE user set user_rights="sysop" where user_name<>"Lir";
>
>     ;-)
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Erik
>


subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl

body:
I'm going to speak up too; I find that Jtdirl and 172 have very very
similar behavior, and oppose Jtdirl's nomination on the same grounds as
172.

I realize this is not something that most people are going to care
about, now that Lir is considered the archetypal troll, but if you take
a look at History of the Soviet Union's talk page, Susan Mason seemed
very willing to discuss edits with Jtdirl and 172. Jtdirl and 172 told
me that it was worthless to discuss things with Susan Mason, since they
are an evil evil banned troll, etc. I said "Just humor me, outline
what's wrong with Susan Mason's edits, and maybe we can work out a
compromise". I received some notes on my talk page that I was being
naive in thinking Susan Mason could cooperate and that everyone else
learned long ago that everything that Susan Mason does should be
reverted. Well, from the experiences of others, this sort of treatment
doesn't seem to be reserved to people widely considered to be trolls.

Fred Bauder wrote:

>I oppose Jtdirl's nomination for the same reasons as Cunctator. Every
>indication is that like 172 he will stongly engage both in historical
>revisionism and abuse of other users.
>
>Fred
>


subject: Lir and his clones  (Was: Re: [WikiEN-l] Sysop nomination: Jtdirl)

body:
I've advised Lir in the past to stop making new accounts, apologize and
ask the list for permission to return, and for guidance when he does
something that makes people want to block him. He says that he's already
done that, and he doesn't think that the list would respond well to
that. So, what do you people think? If Lir came around and said all of
that, how would you feel?

Fred Bauder wrote:

>They are correct with respect to Lir and his clones however. Lir must make
>his peace with us in some other way than continuing to make clones.
>
>Fred
>
>


from_name: John R. Owens

body:
On Tue, 13 May 2003, Anthere wrote:

> Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:22:47 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 172's sysop request and some random thoughts
>
>
> --- Andrew Smith <ams80 at cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > While we're nominating people for sysop-hood I'd
> > like to nominate Anthere, from what I've seen she
> > has been an excellent contributor. In light of the
> > below I'm not sure if she'd accept but I think it
> > would be polite to ask.
>
> I thank you Andrew for that kindness. TC also
> suggested that I asked 3 weeks ago. It was definitly
> *not* something I wanted to be 3 weeks ago. For I
> already have to help keeping clean two places.
> But three weeks ago, a sysop was not was it is heading
> to be in the near future.
> So, I dunno.

If still needed, I'll second *her* (I'm not going to forget that anytime
soon!).

> Meanwhile, I thank *JohnOwens* very much for having
> deleted my images, one of which was copyrighted.
> I suggest the ''Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be
> deleted'' to be rethought for it seems to have low
> usability.
>
> I am still hoping to have the last of the *very*
> interesting redirections of Fat Budda made 3 weeks ago
> deleted in time.
>
> I must confess, this afternoon, I have been thinking
> the deletion could be sped up if I added some
> obscenities in these blank pages. It seems vandalised
> pages are deleted within a day, to compare with weeks
> in due process and unknown time for blanked pages.
> Similarly, when I mess a redirect, and have to ask for
> the old location to be deleted to make the move back,
> it might be more efficient to vandalize the page to be
> deleted rather than putting it in the vote for
> deletion page perhaps ?
>
> Of course, this was just a wild thought :-) I would
> not do such a thing, would I ????
> I am an extremely reasonable woman :-)

Might work with some, but not on me; anything which isn't just-created, I
check its history, to make sure there's nothing that isn't clearly "patent
nonsense" in there either. If it isn't entirely patent nonsense, I'd
rather wait the week on VFD. So keep the cuss words to yourself. ;)

> ? is the plural of process processes ? maybe not ...?!?

Yes, it is.

--
John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/
Something far worse than the Shadows: reporters.
				--Captain John Sheridan


from_name: steven l. rubenstein

subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
There is a new article on the death of John Savage, former premier of Nova
Scotia.  When I saw the article, my first thought was that the actor John
(or is it Jon?) Savage died.  Now an administrator, I suppose I am obliged
to add the link to the main page under recent deaths.  Yet, I do not want
to frighten fans of the actor.  Yet, we have the article, so maybe...

Question: do we post the names of any person who has recently died, if we
also have an article -- or are there limits.

No disrespect to Canadians, of course.

Steve

Steven L. Rubenstein
Assistant Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.478 / Virus Database: 275 - Release Date: 5/6/2003


from_name: John Robinson

subject: [WikiEN-l] problems making changes

body:
This has happened to me too, and I don't think it's a local or proxy
cache problem because of what happened when I created the [[Whistler's
Mother]] article.

Initially it wouldn't save, but I kept persevering and finally got it
to go; it showed up in Recent Changes -twice-.  It still shows up twice
in my contributions list and watchlist, once seemingly permanently
marked "new" and another version showing the changes that have been
made to it since creation.

If it makes any difference, that article also starts with ''' as its
first characters.

-Hephaestos


from_name: Leonard Tulipan

subject: [Wikitech-l] Kernel config

body:
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:57:14 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Hunter Peress <hfastjava at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Kernel config
> To: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
> Reply-To: wikitech-l at wikipedia.org
>
> reducing these options will maybe shave a couple hundred k of the size of the kernel image.
>
> triming down a kernel does not make it faster, it might save you 4 microseconds at boot time...
> There is *NO* good reason to recompile kernels unless you have to.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
>

Basically you are right, all except loadable module support are not
really worth the hassle.
But I think, if you want to secure things, you sould really disable
loadable module support. Most root-kits need this to work. If you can
somehow disable it, the chance of a permanent security breach are pretty
slim.
And for that to work you need to shave of those couple of 100 k's to get
all in one nice kernel package.
It all depends on how paranoid you are (or how you trust your backups
:-)

Cheers
Leo


from_name: Andrew Smith

body:
While we're nominating people for sysop-hood I'd like to nominate Anthere, from what I've seen she has been an excellent contributor. In light of the below I'm not sure if she'd accept but I think it would be polite to ask.

Andrew (Ams80)
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Anthere
  To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
  Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 11:22 AM
  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 172's sysop request and some random thoughts

  Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    Note to Abe Sokolov (aka 172)

    And I also found it odd that you
    wanted to be an Admin so badly even though, in my experience, you haven't
    done much Wikipedia Weeding or had a desire to edit protected pages.

    ------------------

    It is interesting (hum...who said what about that expression ?) you give (among other arguments of course :-)) as a poor justification for asking to be a sysop the fact 172 did not commonly ask to edit protected pages. I think it is a bad argument for not granting sysophood. Reading your comment, I reflected I long gave up the idea of having any impacts on the content of protected pages. I just avoir looking at them (I never look at the main page now), I consider I have no real right to edit them for each time the process required is to beg and convince someone to do it for me. Which I consider bad for a wiki.

    Curious, but I miss Ed here.

    Some time ago, he led a nice description of the different levels held by users in wikipedia.

    I think these descriptions are changing or will change soon.

    Imho, before, a sysop was a super user. Ie, someone who had super powers. The "normal" state (the regular user) being enough to work without much trouble, to give his opinion, and to generally participate in the decision making process. Usually super powers are restricted to a small class of people.

    Now, I think that if most people are upgraded to the sysop status, the regular (standard) status will becomes the sysop status.

    Ultimately, the only ones left in the simple user status will be a couple of weird people, questionables editors (per sysops estimate), newbies, trolls and vandals. Which probably means there will be more "bad" or "said bad" edits by simple users. Further instoring in every one mind that simple users have a low-trust status.

    On one hand, it is quite good there are more sysops, for it could mean more balance ("could").

    On the other hand, the simple user really get a lower-status, and I fear it will very soon have a very strong smell of "not to be trusted" by default.

    I think a simple user will little by little see his own abilities to participate in the decision process shrink (potential e.g. very annoying users pages and talk pages being protected).

    But right, some could argue that someone willing to participate in the decision process could ask to be a sysop.

    Going back to what is basically the role of an simple user : editing then...

    I also think the editing moves of a simple user are also slowly being restricted and misconsidered, because of a growing bureaucracy on the english wiki.

    "Trust me", french people are very accutely aware of bureaucracy when it begins to plague a process :-))))

    More often than not, when I have a problem on the english wikipedia, either I just drop it by anticipated tiredness, or I feel like entering a french social security administration building (incidently, my whole country is on strike today on retirement issues...well, except me of course :-))

    For so many barely interesting issues, a simple user needs to find the proper page, read all the rules and guidelines beforehand (not knowing the rules is an offense), check if the page is protected (if so, head for someone to unprotect it, justify your request for unprotection), head for the talk page, check if the talk page is not too long (if so, head for someone to clean it), add your request, wait, justify, wait, justify, wait, justify, wait...head for the pump (ask someone to clean it before), try to raise someone interest to make the sysop act for you, wait, justify again, head for the mailing list..., maybe propose a wikismile for the action (what ! bribing !)

    At this point, either you are labelled "heavy" or you drop the topic.

    And each time I am heading for one of these processes, when I see a sysop just do it in a couple of seconds without having to justify anything to anyone, I am accutely aware a simple user is a lower-user, with less editing rights than others and with less trust, even if it just relies on a little flag somewhere. And I wonder over little flag importance over just common sense.

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from_name: Ray Saintonge

body:
cprompt wrote:

> All concerned parties, be advised of my article [[Peyronie disease]].
>
> My view is that the Wikipedia should not contain pornography, but
> nudity is okay. Some people may not be cool with the idea of looking
> at nudity, but they have just as much right to not "Click here to see
> image containing nudity" as they do to avoid other places where they'd
> see nudity

No problem, but the reference to "oral medication" could be ambiguous. :-P

Ec


body:
--- cprompt <cprompt at tmbg.org> wrote:
> All concerned parties, be advised of my article
> [[Peyronie disease]].
>
> My view is that the Wikipedia should not contain
> pornography, but nudity
> is okay. Some people may not be cool with the idea
> of looking at nudity,
> but they have just as much right to not "Click here
> to see image
> containing nudity" as they do to avoid other places
> where they'd see
> nudity (Playboy, porno sites, etc.) Nudity is okay
> because it describes
> how things really do look. Drawings should not be
> considered watered
> down photos. They're good at showing some details
> that may not be
> apparent in photographs. Photographs on the other
> hand, show reality. I
> think both are perfectly acceptable. Understanding
> that certain people
> are sensitive to seeing nudity, we should mask it
> behind a link. But we
> are not making an encyclopedia specifically for
> grade schools, and we
> are not making an encyclopedia for people who turn
> red at the site of
> genitalia. Individuals need to exercise control of
> their viewing habits,
> and schools and parents need to be aware of what
> children are surfing
> to. That's just not our job.

Agreed ++.

Should make the warning more obvious though. Bold or
something equivalent.

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subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)

body:
steven l. rubenstein wrote:

> There is a new article on the death of John Savage, former premier of
> Nova Scotia.  When I saw the article, my first thought was that the
> actor John (or is it Jon?) Savage died.  Now an administrator, I
> suppose I am obliged to add the link to the main page under recent
> deaths.  Yet, I do not want to frighten fans of the actor.  Yet, we
> have the article, so maybe...
>
> Question: do we post the names of any person who has recently died, if
> we also have an article -- or are there limits.
>
> No disrespect to Canadians, of course.

The actors are 3 Johns and 1 John, though only one of the Johns has a
significant filmography.  Honestly though, I hadn't heard of the
actor(s) until you raised the point.  Who gets listed is probably a
matter of common sense.  Some time ago we had a big debate over famous
Canadians; with DW involved it was no fun.

Ec


from_name: Alex R.

subject: [WikiEN-l] Admin nominations

body:
LittleDan informed me that he nominated me, I'm not quite sure I should accept the nomination (I don't think it has been seconded). I'm a bit new here and willing to do my share of housekeeping if that is part of what being a good Wikipedian is all about, but if being a sysop is a status thing then I'm not really interested. From what I can glean about the formality of this place all nominations for sysops need to be seconded and since my nomination hasn't been seconded will it just expire at a certain point?
alex756
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Daniel Ehrenberg
  To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
  Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 9:07 AM
  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin nominations

  oh, I thought Someone else, Slrubestien, and Hephestos already were sysops. As long as we're nominating people, I nominate User:Alex756. He's been a great contributer to wikipedia.

  Daniel Mayer <maveric149 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    Danny wrote:
    >I would like to nominate Slrubenstein as a
    >sysop. He has consistently done excellent
    >work for over a year.

    I second that. So far these users have been nominated and seconded (most have
    also been "seconded" by more than a few other people):

    User:Slrubenstein
    User:CatherineMunro
    User:Hephaestos
    User:The Anome
    User:Someone_else
    User:GrahamN

    I'm going to try to get their consent now.

    -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)

    _______________________________________________
    WikiEN-l mailing list
    WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
    http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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from_name: artslave

subject: [WikiEN-l] Sysop Status - CatherineMunro

body:
Hi!

I was pleased to receive an invitation from Mav on my talk page to accept
sysop status.  I'm glad that I've earned a little bit of trust here; I've
enjoyed working on the Wikipedia and I'll be happy to accept.  My time is
somewhat more limited now than it has been in previous months, but I'll
help out whenever I can.

I've subscribed to the mailing list and looked through the archives, and
looked over the admin guidelines.  Like others, I'm hesitant about banning
IPs -- I'll follow more experienced admins' lead on that front, but I'll
keep my eyes open for other opportunities to help.

Thanks again!
Catherine


subject: [WikiEN-l] forgiveness of bans

body:
That's a great plan, but I think one or two months
would be more appropriate (3 months is a long time!).
Perhaps we should reffer our banned users to something
like Usemod or c2 wiki. They would probably embrace
Lir  for the valuable information he provides (and he
does), unlike we, who shun him. Those sites don't have
NPOV policies (afaik).

--- martin at myreddice.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> I muttered to myself here:
> http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/bans_and_blocks
>
> about unbanning people who've been "hard banned".
> "Hard bans" would include Lir,
> DW, Helga, "142", possibly Zog, and no doubt others.
> I suggested that the best
> option is to say that bans are forgiven after three
> consecutive months of good
> behaviour - good behaviour in this case means:
>
> * no coming back to Wikipedia under new pseudonyms,
> etc
> * no threatening Wikipedia contributors
>
> It's a simple strategy, with many benefits:
> * If a banned user ignores the option of attaining
> forgiveness, then we're no worse
> off. In fact we're better off, because the ban will
> be respected by people who would
> not respect a ban with no possibility of reprieve.
> * If a banned user is forgiven, and then immediately
> channels Satan and has to be
> banned again, then we're better off, because we at
> least had three months of peace
> and quiet.
> * If a banned user is forgiven and turns into a
> model contributor, then we're much
> better off - plus one good contributor, minus one
> soure of conflict.
> * If a banned user stops trying to come back for
> three months, in order to be
> forgiven, and finds a much better site than
> Wikipedia, decides Wikipedia is actually
> irrelevant, and moves on, then everyone's better
> off, including the banned user.
>
> I fail to see the benefit of requiring an apology.
> Such an apology, given under
> duress, has no value. Only a freely given and
> sincerely meant apology can aid in
> healing the wounds of conflicts past.
>
> Three months seems a sufficient length of time for
> non-dwarfs to bear grudges, so I
> commend this simple policy to the house. Or, failing
> that, the list.
>
> -Martin "MyRedDice" Harper

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body:
Sorry, I'm just uncomftorble with nudity in Wikipedia
in general, although drawings are okay.

--- Anthere <anthere6 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- cprompt <cprompt at tmbg.org> wrote:
> > All concerned parties, be advised of my article
> > [[Peyronie disease]].
> >
> > My view is that the Wikipedia should not contain
> > pornography, but nudity
> > is okay. Some people may not be cool with the idea
> > of looking at nudity,
> > but they have just as much right to not "Click
> here
> > to see image
> > containing nudity" as they do to avoid other
> places
> > where they'd see
> > nudity (Playboy, porno sites, etc.) Nudity is okay
> > because it describes
> > how things really do look. Drawings should not be
> > considered watered
> > down photos. They're good at showing some details
> > that may not be
> > apparent in photographs. Photographs on the other
> > hand, show reality. I
> > think both are perfectly acceptable. Understanding
> > that certain people
> > are sensitive to seeing nudity, we should mask it
> > behind a link. But we
> > are not making an encyclopedia specifically for
> > grade schools, and we
> > are not making an encyclopedia for people who turn
> > red at the site of
> > genitalia. Individuals need to exercise control of
> > their viewing habits,
> > and schools and parents need to be aware of what
> > children are surfing
> > to. That's just not our job.
>
> Agreed ++.
>
> Should make the warning more obvious though. Bold or
> something equivalent.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
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> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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body:
I third.

--- "John R. Owens" <jowens.wiki at ghiapet.homeip.net>
> If still needed, I'll second *her* [Anthere] (I'm
not going to
> forget that anytime
> soon!).

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subject: [WikiEN-l] forgiveness of bans

body:
Martin wrote:
>I fail to see the benefit of requiring an apology.
>Such an apology, given under duress, has no value.
>Only a freely given and sincerely meant apology can
>aid in healing the wounds of conflicts past.

An apology is an admission that a person did something wrong and this is the
first step toward learning not to do whatever got them banned again. Without
some demonstration that the person plans on working to reform their ways
there can be no lifting of a hard ban.

Only the most anti-social people get banned to begin with and it is therefore
no surprise that we haven't heard many apologies from them. They don't seem
to think they did anything wrong and are likely to relapse to their
anti-social ways.

But even given your criteria 142, Adam, and Micheal would still be hard banned
since they often come back and try to sneak edits in.

Also anybody who hasn't edited Wikipedia for more than there months (such as
Helga, Clutch or TMC) are likely never to return anyway.

That said I still think it would be interesting to try your idea on the next
ban. If it works we could then expand the program retroactively.

-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)


from_name: Zoe

body:
He has not done so.  He continues to cause trouble
with every name he uses.  Jimbo Wales asked him to
promise to be good, and he refused.  How many
multiples of hundreds of chances must one person get?

Zoe

--- cprompt <cprompt at tmbg.org> wrote:
> I've advised Lir in the past to stop making new
> accounts, apologize and
> ask the list for permission to return, and for
> guidance when he does
> something that makes people want to block him. He
> says that he's already
> done that, and he doesn't think that the list would
> respond well to
> that. So, what do you people think? If Lir came
> around and said all of
> that, how would you feel?
>
> Fred Bauder wrote:
>
> >They are correct with respect to Lir and his clones
> however. Lir must make
> >his peace with us in some other way than continuing
> to make clones.
> >
> >Fred
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
> http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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